Some of you may have noticed that I have not been on the forum for the past couple of days. Yet I have been busy with matters of interest to the Board. Justuss has now turned me loose. She asked that I have patience at one point and I obliged.

The items of business I will cover in this thread are as follows:

#1. Yesterday evening, I received permission from Dr. Harley to release to the Board a private email he sent to me. The contents are interesting, informative and instructional. The personal impact on me will be posted. I have had a few days of reflection. If someone wants to post what Dr. Harley's email means to them, by all means feel free. I will also post the letter I sent to Dr. Harley that prompted his response.

#2. I will have a few observations on how I intend to manage my personal activity on this forum and on this Board. More or less, it is my intent to continue as I have in the past, but with an explanation, or two, maybe three of why I do what I do, the methods I use, which mostly come straight out of my understand of Dr. Harley.

Character assassination says a lot about those who engage in that very human of sports. And it can be very devastating to the target.

I am posting this thread to give those who apparently don't think I am "pure" enough to give advice here, a place to vent so they do not disturb the threads of folks looking for help.

Give me a few minutes of time so I can reformat the next post. I originally wrote it in notepad and have to reformat to make it look right on the forum.

Larry

And here is the long awaited email from Dr. Harley:
____________________________________________

Re: Definition of "Affairage."

Hi Larry,

First and formost, no one is to be treated in a disrespectful way on the forum, regardless of what they have done or what they have said. Our remedy for disrespect in any form is to delete the post, inform the writer that they are in danger of losing their privilage to be part of the forum community, and if they do it again, they are promptly suspended. Justuss will do everything she can to make sure that you are not attacked again.

As for an affairage, it's generally used to refer to a marriage between two people who had an affair with each other while at least one of them was married. Technically, you fall into that category because, as I understand it, you began dating your wife while she was still married, even though the divorce was only days away. I have saved many marriages that were one week away from a divorce, and I know of many others where the couple remarried within a year of their divorce. So for someone to come between a husband and wife while they are in a vulnerable state is something we don't recommend.

However, as soon as a couple is married, we forget about why they married, and focus on helping them make their marriage terrific. Granted, we have problems keeping affairages together because they are particularly fragile (you've probably read my statistics on their probability of success and why it's so low), but we work with them with the same intensity as we do with any marriage. And we don't judge them.

I appreciate the contribution you have made to the Marriage Builders Forum, and want to encourage you to continue to help couples who are struggling with marital problems.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

_____________________________________________

And as promised, here is what it meant to me:

Hi Larry,

First and formost, no one is to be treated in a disrespectful way on the forum, regardless of what they have done or what they have said.

Dr. Harley details the rule. Dang good rule if you think about it. When a forum becomes uncivil, people who are bleeding are turned off. Those trying to work up their courage to seek help turn away and do not post. Those already posting are taken aback. Why does Dr. Harley have this rule? Think about it.


Our remedy for disrespect in any form is to delete the post, inform the writer that they are in danger of losing their privilage to be part of the forum community, and if they do it again, they are promptly suspended.

Remedy for not following the rule. Was this done? I don't know.

Justuss will do everything she can to make sure that you are not attacked again.

Dr. Harley says I was attacked. And Justuss is directed to do what she can. I was attacked. I got that.

Now why and what methods were used? More on this later on. If you think that Dr. Harley formed his opinion that I was attacked based on anything I had to say to him, then you are drinking from a Kool-Aid jug I want no part of.


As for an affairage, it's generally used to refer to a marriage between two people who had an affair with each other while at least one of them was married. Technically, you fall into that category because, as I understand it, you began dating your wife while she was still married, even though the divorce was only days away.

He got the time line a bit off, but that isn't relative. I was floored, shocked. And I am not about to argue with Dr. Harley, it was an affairage. Why didn't I accept this before? Could it have been the delivery from those who were playing games or trying to inform me? Words to the effect of "Larry, you're a rotten person, you were in an affairage," caused me to think, "I am not a bad person, so it must be the affairage thing that is wrong with that "attack." Human nature. I will go into more detail on this later.

Dr. Harley has defined "Affairage" with broad strokes. I accept that in part because of the way he delivered the message. I learned something. I suspect I am not the only person who learned something from Dr. Harley's email or at least I hope some learning is going on.

Dr. Harley uses letters and emails sent to him as a tool for teaching broad concepts and methods. Think about it. I did.


I have saved many marriages that were one week away from a divorce, and I know of many others where the couple remarried within a year of their divorce. So for someone to come between a husband and wife while they are in a vulnerable state is something we don't recommend.

Oh man! A large number of questions popped into my mind reading that. I went back and questioned everything I did. That caused serious soul searching. Frankly, if the stbxh hadn't been such a complete rat, I would probably have....well, if I knew then what I know now, I believe that I would have done things way different. Certainly I exercised bad judgment. Without question in my mind as it now stands, just because the XH was a complete, flaming abuser, who deserved his fate, was no reason for me to insert myself between him and his stbxw. EXCEPT in my role as an abuse "Helper." I allowed my personal feelings of sympathy to override both my training and my common sense. Shame on me.

However, as soon as a couple is married, we forget about why they married, and focus on helping them make their marriage terrific.

Okay, I understand that. There is direction there for those who would want to follow that direction.

Granted, we have problems keeping affairages together because they are particularly fragile (you've probably read my statistics on their probability of success and why it's so low), but we work with them with the same intensity as we do with any marriage.

"Larry, you're an idiot." No, he didn't say that, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind. I had already figured it out, sorta, long ago except for the affairage thing. So yea, I was an idiot. On the other hand, my seven year old son just ran up to me with one of his "Gotta tell you right now Daddy," deals, so there you go. A seven year old is just wonderful. Also, and this is pure speculation, he assumes that I have read his stuff. Or he knows because he took some time to look up a few of my posts.

And we don't judge them.

I appreciate the contribution you have made to the Marriage Builders Forum, and want to encourage you to continue to help couples who are struggling with marital problems.

Nice thing to say. He wants me to keep posting on the board.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
___________________

Ok, that was my take. There is more to come as I get to it.

Larry

Hey SW, I said be patient I choose the worst possible program to write with for translating to MB format.

More to come.

Larry

Here is the letter that prompted Dr. Harley's reply:
______________________

Dr. Harley:

I am writing this email to you at the direction of Justuss.

Recently I believe I was the focus of a rather blatant character assassination attempt on the board. The centerpiece was the definition of the term "Affairage." The usual straw men were trotted out for inspection, and then personal attacks caused the thread to be locked before I could really muster a good defense with the facts.

There are really three issues at hand. The first is the definition of the word "Affairage." The second is how much damage, if any, angry outbursts and character assassination can have that defeats the purpose for which the board is intended. And finally, another question that follows from the definition of "Affairage," should you choose to provide one.

A woman leaves her husband and files for a divorce. During the time of divorce proceedings, prior to the actual date of the divorce, she meets someone and begins to form an emotional bond. The man has no connection to her prior to the start of legal divorce proceedings and had nothing to with either her resolve to actually get a divorce or her departure from the marriage home. After the divorce is final, the new man and the new divorcee get married.

Is that an "Affairage?" Is this a black and white issue or one with shades of gray? I understand completely that you may not choose to answer a question from the forum as a matter of policy.

Scenario #1: The husband is devastated by his wife's departure and does everything he can to restore the marriage. He is a good guy and cannot conceive of becoming an every other week dad. In the straw man deal, the husband was painted as someone without resources, who probably responded to divorce papers without a Lawyer, while the new man paid for husband's devastation and actively prevented wife from reconciling with her husband. The new guy is painted as a predatory OM. Husband is a good guy and does not deserve his fate.

Scenario #2. The husband is devastated by his wife's departure and does everything he can to restore the marriage. He is an older man of 42 when he initially marries an 18 year old and two children become the product of the marriage. He acts in such a way as to meet at least three of the qualifications for abuse from the Duluth Wheel of Abuse during the marriage, thus driving his wife away. His method of restoring the marriage alternates between begging and threats. Stalking, death threats, kidnapping the kids for a week at a time, charges filed with CPS and using the kids as weapons in other ways, are part of his arsenal. Husband is not a good guy and is deserving of his fate.

A social point: Many women with young children actively look for a safe landing place for when the divorce is final. Secondly, new man gets to feel like a White Knight. Neither is very wise, which is a part of the human equation at times.

Finally, if you should indicate that the centerpiece of my questioning is indeed an "Affairage," what would you expect from your forum when someone who fits either of the above descriptions (or in between the extremes) who shows up for help on any of the sub-forums such as MB 101, SAA, Recovery and the like? And yes, I have already located your answer for what you do when someone in a conventional affair shows up on your doorstep needing your professional help.

I might add that when I first arrived on MB, I was active almost exclusively in the Recovery forum and in fact, had no idea that what I had done could be considered an "Affairage" as such and no idea that someone would want to, at some future date, accuse me of being an OM. This is why I left a trail of facts outstanding where someone who was investigating me for their own reasons could seize on the point they wanted to make and drill me with it. Any good Lawyer can use straw men to baffle, confuse and distort the facts if they are allowed to so do.

It was not a lot fun playing target.
________________________

Larry

Are you saying that you were her professional abuse counselor before you got involved and/or while you were involved with her?

As for the affairage stuff, I think the issue people had with you Larry is that you kept this from the board and the fact that you weren't letting newbies know your prior history. I for one always want to know someone's background before I consider listening to their advice and how that advice might be slanted.

You seem to give some good advice Larry but that's not the point. Do you understand that?

EXACTLY!

I believe the "we" in "we don't judge them" refers to Dr. Harley's professional counseling service.

If you go to a professional for care, it's true that they will help you without "judgment". If you have an STD or a gunshot wound or a heroin overdose or an affairage and need help for any of those things, a professional is required to objectively help you if you go to them and they are not allowed to "judge" you.

The rest of us here are not professionals. We are not bound by the "we don't judge them" statement. We ARE free to judge by giving our opinons on things posted here, and most of us do.

That's the difference between the Harley counseling service and the posters on these boards.

Anyone who does not wish to hear opinions and "judgment" should stick to the professional counseling service and not waste their time posting on these boards.

Now I am going to deal with some personal issues.

I do not post in such a way as to turn off those anonymous observers and help prevent them from seeking help here.

I do not post in such a way as to run someone off in need of help.

I do not pile on. If I ever did before, you may be assured that I will not do it again.

With one exception. When someone gives good advice, I will attempt to validate that good advice with an ITA or some such.

I will not attempt to do a better job of BASHING someone than the last poster in some sort of competition to see who is the best at bashing and anger.

I will not compete with myself to increase the level of bashing nor will I allow my anger to take over the purpose I have on this board, which is to help people.

I do not believe that a person's PAST disqualifies them from posting effective help. A person's PRESENT might. But the latter is not for ME to say, it is the job of the moderators.

I believe that if I am to follow Dr. Harley's beliefs, then I must also follow his method delivering those beliefs and that means, without judging a person for who they are. Which does not mean I won't challenge them.

There is a difference between challenging and confrontation.

And I will refrain from posing speculation as fact. That is pure straw men stuff.

Larry

For what it's worth, that's how I feel about it! I've seen a longer article from Dr. Harley about the lower chances for success but also telling stories about people who have finally made it to a good marriage after strings of affairs. In fact I think there was a story about this in one of the books; I remember it greatly impressed my wife.

If an affairage can be turned into a good marriage, I say that's great.

I do think there may be some necessity of bringing people to realize that they have behavior in their past they need to own up to and even be ashamed of. I don't know where the line is between that and disrespecting someone. I'll generally leave that job for other people. It may be better for people to focus on saving the marriage they have, now, and reflect on things after the marriage is saved (or fails ).

For what it's worth, Larry, I commend you for the attitude of receptivity and personal growth you display in response to Dr. Harley's letter, and I am very thankful that you shared both the letter and your response with us!

And now I'm going to tell it like I think it is: I'm glad you follow these rules, Larry, and I wish everyone did ... but I definitely get the sense that here you aren't so much posting your own standard as requesting other people follow that standard. Comes off a little weak.

I AM glad to have you here, though, and hoping your posting frequency goes back up. I have not always agreed with everything you have said, but I have often benefited from a lot of it.

OUCH!

I need to go back and edit.

NO, I was not a professional abuse counselor. I was on a forum where I got some training to settle people down and send them to the professionals, sorta like here. In fact, I did send the lady to her local abuse shelter for help and they provided it to her.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Larry

Princess...

You raise valid issues:


Some folks may have had this as their issue, others no, in my opinion. But it is an issue to be raised.

I do not believe that a person's past mistakes disqualifies them from providing good advice on a current basis. I personally know of the history of some of those on here who give terrific advice, and by their personal history would be disqualified if their personal history were detailed in their signature.

I hide nothing. The "Style" of the attack was calculated to make it LOOK like I was hiding something. If I "Hid" anything, it was out of ignorance, not intent. And INTENT is the key.

Matter of fact, what I posted was used to attack me, so I see a conflict there: What I was supposedly hiding was used to distort and inflame. If I was hiding it, how was it in the open to be found.

Did that make sense?

Larry

It isn't great for the spouses and children who were dumped like garbage so the cheaters could have their "great" marriage.

I think every BS here, including those who are divorced, are sickened by the thought of having their XWS show up here to get help and support for their affairage - the same affairage that destroyed the BS's family.

That's another difference between the boards and professional service. You have to remember that for every affairage, there was by definition at least one marriage and family blown to bits so it could happen. Giving help and support to affairages here on these boards is just rubbing that fact in the face of every BS here, and that is why there is so little tolerance (and so much sheer outright sickening horror) at the idea of affairages being supported here.

Markos:


Not that I wasn't blatant about it. Sorry, it was kinda weak, you're right. You want me to go back and make it tougher?

I was attempting to avoid personal attacks. I am really trying to take the high road as best I can.

I appreciate your remarks.

And I could have added: I resolve not to follow someone around and beat on them in a thread used by a newbie for help.

See Markos, I do not see perfection here. I see people doing the best they humanly can to help. I make mistakes and have no hesitation to admit. Matter of fact, I have been slapped down a couple of times by Mel. But she did it by challenging me, not calling me names and browbeating me on my character.

I have always tolerated everything except an attempt character assassination and there I draw the line. Challenging is good, character assassination is bad. Simple for me to understand.

Larry

Mulan


Oddly enough, I agree with you. But I am on Dr. Harley's forum and thus follow his guidelines. If I felt that someone was in a classic "Affairage," I might ignore the thread. It just occurred to me that the reality is, I was the victim of a triple betrayal, my wife and my relative for what they did and myself. Thank you for triggering that thought.

On the other hand, if the facts as presented indicated that the former spouse was an abuser, the hair on the back of my neck would go straight up. I have no use for abusers who do not redeem themselves, at all, period. But I do have a lot of empathy, if not sympathy for those abusers who DO redeem themselves, often to late to save their marriage.

Mulan, I probably made a mistake at one point in my life when I shifted from Red Cross volunteer to helping with an early UseNet abuse forum - as requested by a personal friend. Since that time, I have associated with an abuse shelter and discussed abuse countless times with a friend of mine who is an LPC, RPT-S specializing in difficult and abused children. I am way off center on the subject of abuse, I hate the way it destroys people's lives, especially children. So I don't often try to post on the subject.

By the way, nothing I said except for the first few words had anything to do with you or your situation. I am in complete sympathy for you and your loss.

Larry

Larry, I should like to know whether my pointing out why I am disappointed in your conduct here will count as an attack on you.

I think that there are serious issues raised by the way you appear to have used the law against your XW's former husband. I also think that, had I known about your role in her first marriage, I would not have said what I did about your XW's new marriage on your divorce thread. However, I worry that if I ask you to account for your actions surrounding the XH and his children, and also to account for your description of those actions and your marriage on this board, you will write to the moderators or directly to Dr Harley, accusing me of an attack and seeking to have me banned.

I would like to know whether you will answer questions and discuss observations that people have about your marriage. Is this thread now an official warning that your marriage is a closed subject, and any attempt to discuss it will result in your reporting posters and invoking the disciplinary procedure?

Or are you simply telling others how to post? I hear a controlled anger behind your posts in this thread. I am appalled that you would write to Dr. H about this instead of just understanding that some people are passionate about their views against affairages.

Hmmmmm.....did you tell Dr. H about how all of this came about because you were having difficulties with his policy of Radical Honesty?.......especially Historical Honesty?

[quoteAnd here is the long awaited email from Dr. Harley:
____________________________________________




___________________


[/quote]

Larry, why would this be long awaited? I am nobody on this board, just a BW that owes her M and her sanity to the advice I gleaned from this board just by lurking but I don't understand where you are coming from.

I read the posts that you are referring to and the thread that was opened up for discussion and I saw no attack. I don't understand why you even e-mailed Dr harley much less why anyone on here should be waiting with baited breath for his reply.

Just sayin....

God's Blessings,

Say

This kind of defensive attitude is what pisses people off. You had to post a Dr. Harley email to try and shove in the face of those who had a problem with your "affairage." If you would have just stated, "you are right, I shouldn't have pursued my wife when she was in the process of divorce" and ignored the criticism instead of getting so defensive, you wouldn't be having problems. You are just fanning the flames with this post. People have major issues with "affairages" on this forum. Deal with it instead of constantly trying to defend your actions.

Disqualified by whom?

Personally I wonder why anyone would do research on the web on a poster who says they want to clear the air. I find it creepy that someone would spend a long time looking at court cases just to find fault with a poster. And never did figure out why Larry was targeted. I read a lot on the divorce board and that particular day, all kinds of people magically showed up - almost like a tag team.

And MB people would be very surprised at the histories of some of the posters. Over the years I've heard a lot. Several BS's let me know that they had had an affair on their WS first.

We're on the internet and some people only give one side of the story. Advice here is free. If it goes by the MB program, I listen to it.

If you want a detailed history of the person giving you advice, get counseling with the Harleys.

Quote:I personally know of the history of some of those on here who give terrific advice, and by their personal history would be disqualified if their personal history were detailed in their signature.

You lost me on the second personal in one sentence. Qualifying your background, especially for newbies, is helpful. I have in my sig line and mention in my posts that fact that I was once a wayward. I also happen to be a two-time BS who is dealing with an OC in her life.

I take this to mean that Larry has "inside information" that there are others here who deliberately do not disclose things about their past. No doubt, there are.
This translates to : there are others who are dishonest with the forum, and that makes it OK for Larry to have been dishonest.

Seriously?

I didn't put that quite right. You don't really know the history of anyone here, except what they say. If that bothers you, get counseling with the Harleys.

I don't know of anyone who did research on the web on a poster who said "they want to clear the air".

I do know that the "research on the web" was first revealed on my "Historical honesty" thread, after Larry posted to the effect that he did not understand the concept of HH. I didn't understand what appeared to me to be his resistance to the concept.

The research on the web that revealed Larry's actions in overturning a court order giving the XH significant visiting rights over his (XH's) children was enlightening.

Believer - under normal conditions I would agree with you. This is not one of those occasions for these reasons:

• Larry seeks out "authority" to quell the feedback from some long term old timers who have given fantastic advise and who's BS detectors are well-honed - and they are very rarely wrong about that BS detector stuff.
  
• Larry complains about XW's vicious X husband for abuse. How often do we hear a wayward woman complain about abusive husbands? My BS detector went off on this one - was the XH really abusive? Did Larry contribute to a father being denied access to his own children?
  
• Larry wants us to turn a blind eye to his participation in his XW's custody battle against a harmed father based on hearsay?
  
• Now Larry wants to open the topic of a moderator-closed thread on his terms and at the same time point the acusing finger at those who want to point out his duplicity in the harm his XW did to her XH who is not Larry.
  

Larry opened this can of worms again. He can deal with the consequences which is getting to deal with what he's hiding from by calling in the big guns.

Larry - I gotta tell you I can tell the feedback over your duplicity with the demise of your XW's previous marriage gets under your skin.

You want to talk about it openly and honestly now? Or do you just want us to shut up?

Because you will NEVER have credibility with me again until you deal with this OPENLY and HONESTLY - all in!

And I used to think you were pretty sharp until you fell for the "abused wife" line and got suckered into an emotional affair. And then denied it. And then pointed the defensive finger and called everyone who called you on it abusive.

Feedback is feedback.

You're not being open and honest. With YOURSELF.

Otherwise, what we say would never get to you to the point you'd go to Dr Harley over a closed thread.

What you do speaks so loudly I can't hear what you say!

Start being honest. Here. and with the man in the mirror. You have work to do.

Then you can get back to making a huge difference here as a marriage builder instead of a marriage killer.

Larry,

I think that you posted Dr Harley's letter to give you the backing you sought for your lack of historical honesty on this board. I think that you, once again, told your story selectively, with the result that you have manipulated the answer you wanted from him. I'm very sorry that he has been used in this way.

You told him of a "character assassination", but some of us cannot see where this was done. I, for one, can see an assassination only YOU on YOURSELF, by your own actions in telling your story very selectively.

There is a veiled threat in this thread that anyone who, from now on, raises that issue with you will be disciplined.

I have no doubt that this thread will be locked soon.

I still don't get it. Why would ANYONE spend a long time researching a poster on the web? He was targeted for some reason.

It gives me the creeps.

I didn't see where anyone "researched him". I saw what he posted about his XW's X - and there was an admission ever so brief that he had met her before she was divorced and fallen for her - and the line about how abusive the STBX H was - and then the defensiveness instead of forthrightness - clues too many right here on marriage builders - didn't need to go to the WWW to find more.

Posting on a forum is interesting.

Here is what I do not appreciate.
Other posters who lie to me.

Here is one actual example from MY past MB experience:

Poster A, eventually disclosed she was on MB to save a non-married relationship.
This is something I choose not to do.
I explained to Poster A my reasons why I personally do not try to bend MB concepts to fit where I don't think there is a good fit.
I wished her well.
Then, I left her alone.

However, she really wanted my help.
She asked me again.
I said, "No thank you".

So, what did she do?
She registered under a new name as a married noobie.
And, this way she got my help under false pretenses.

Much later, she confessed to me what she had done.
She had tricked me into helping her with her pretend marriage.
And, guess what? ... She told me their relationship did not last.
They broke up.

I was livid.

I think we , as a group, are very sensitive to people who skirt the facts, obfuscate the truth, and otherwise pretend to be something (married) when they are not.

After all, is this not what the BS hates the most?
Being lied to?
Being told half truths?

Also, isn't it ironic, that people who have the most trouble facing hard truths in their intimate relationships are the ones MOST likely to hide the facts about themselves on a message board?

I don't care if anyone else wants to "help" non-married posters, or posters in an affairage ... but I do resent it when I am tricked into it.

I was tricked enough during my H's adultery .... and I sure as hell do not like it when I am tricked by other posters.

Those who do this, have shoddy,shabby integrity ... which will eventually show up in their marriage.

So, to those reading this who are hiding their true selves from the rest of us ... I say this:

Dishonesty will hurt you.
Dishonesty will hurt others.

If you walk a mile in dishonest shoes, you're walking in the wrong direction.

I've personally researched posters when their stories didn't jive. Why? I guess because of my legal background. I've seen cases turn around on a dime when crucial information is uncovered.

The same could apply here, when a poster is exposed, it gives everyone else the opportunity (previously denied by the deception)to continue posting or listening to that person.

Nothing creepy about that at all.

You never did figure out that people who had "known" Larry over some time here were shocked that he had concealed his conduct in his former wife's divorce and visitation hearings?

You never did figure out why a BH who had cried tears on MB over his powerlessness against losing his children to an OM, raged when they found out that one of their advisors, Larry, had used the law to deprive XH of visitation rights over HIS KIDS?

Did you never figure out that people were OUTRAGED by this injustice and duplicity? You attempt a slur on them by describing their appearance as "magical" and "almost like a tag team", but such comments in fact reflect badly on you.

No, you can say anything you please and ask me any question you please, and certainly challenge me in any way you believe to be productive. I have started this thread to keep the challenges to my personal integrity removed from the threads of those who, in my opinion, are too fragile to deal with the bickering on their thread.

Let me mention two more things that might be of interest to you. I had to sell my most prized possession (other than family) to finance the Lawyers who were RESPONDING to XH efforts to throw XW in jail on contempt charges. It was an old and carefully maintained sports car I had paid dearly for in times past. So far as we hear, he financed his own legal team by borrowing heavily, gifts from relatives, acting as a hunting guide during season and other strategies. Matter of fact, ten years after the fact, collection efforts against XW for a credit card that has her social security number on it have surfaced. They didn't have credit cards during their marriage.

The second point I will raise with you is simple. Please note that my personal history was selectively searched to dig up anything that could used against me. And things were found and distorted. If I had anything to hide, none of those posts by me would have ever been generated. My old posts were just like the current one, my perspective and all the details I could remember.

Matter of fact SC, you opened a can of worms in my mind that was extremely helpful. When I went into MHMR for an admitting review, my thoughts were so organized that the Psychologist decided to do a full therapy session. At the conclusion of that session, she asked several very astute questions that really, really helped me deal with the adversity that is currently conflicting my son. Not me much anymore.

Thank you for your help.

Larry

(((( PSUBIKER ))))

When I first came on this forum I posted for a couple months as only a BW. When my affair was revealed to my H I felt it was only right to out myself on MB. After all these people gave of their OWN time to help me.

I would not choose to help someone in an affairage. My mother's affairage has hurt me enough. I choose not to help someone that took rights away from a father for what appears to be his own gain.

This was not an orchestrated attack or a tag team on Larry. This was a group of posters who were stunned to learn they had helped a person that was not forthright about circumstances.

My MIL is on her 2nd affairiage. The first one last 10 years, the current one is on its 20th year. There were lots of reasons for my DH to justify his A, her 'successful' affairiage was one of them.

Sins of the fathers, or mothers in this case....
Children mimic what parents model.

Whoa SC. Now that I have provided you with more facts, and would gladly provide you with even more, would you care to take another look at your own beliefs?

Believer is making an observation based on appearances. Oddly enough, so are others, like you, with no disrespect for Believer or you. Unless you are going to hold that Justuss and Dr. H are fools, please consider what Dr H. has said in light of what you know, not the straw men of false allegations. And if you don't know enough, I am open to questions. Have at it.

Larry

And PSU hasn't been back since that betrayal.

Larry - that tells you something about the impact of your deception here - regardless of justifications. A good man isn't here who makes a difference too - because of YOU.

Let me jump in here for just a quick second... to clarify a couple of things.

Larry did not email Dr Harley to complain about members. His thread of D/D was locked, he felt, before he had a chance to respond to some posts. He was edited for bringing up the subject again on another thread. So he emailed me, asking for the "Definition of an Affairage". As Admin, I told him I was not at liberty to advise or counsel. I suggested he write to Dr Harley. He did mention his previous problem on the forum as a way of explaining WHY he was emailing Dr Harley personally rather than posting on the forums.

After conferring with Dr Harley & the moderators, it was decided the best way Larry could "clear the air" was to post his own new thread. He could answer any questions & concerns if he felt comfortable doing so.

PLEASE remember!! This IS the internet!! Do NOT ask questions, provide links or voice concerns that reveal PERSONAL REAL LIFE info!!

Faithful


I saw no reason to repeat myself continuously in posts to tell everyone I had exercised bad judgment ten years ago. My history has been reviewed several times in the past. That there was enough there so those who wanted to dig up dirt could, says all that needs saying.

I was stunned to find there were people willing to believe straw men to bash me into oblivion. You do understand what straw men are, right?


There is more to it, but that is the base concept, often found in political circles and on the Internet in "Blogs."

Larry

I'm not an idiot, Larry. But thanks for insinuating that I am.

FTR Larry, I don't see any "staw men" in this. I only see your own duplicity with the posters of this board.

I am done posting on this thread.

Larry - your lack of empathy for PSU Biker is stunning.

You are in the shoes of the OM in his life, helping the XW keep his children away from their father.

And you can't understand why that would bother PSU? Or anyone else here? Instead you have to drag this topic out again to defend your defenseless position with regard to PSU and men like him who are fighting an uphill battle in the courts?

That doesn't bother you that he's not here posting anymore?

You have no feeling in that regard?

And instead of asking what to do to make amends, you defend, defend defend.

I'm done too.

I just hate assumptions. I have a friend of mine, who knows my personal history to the ninth degree. He posts on here from time to time. He called me after the unfortunate events that led to this thread.

He knows PSU and he said he was going to contact PSU and tell him him whatever I would ok telling him. I told my friend to tell PSU whatever he wanted, nothing held back. I haven't hear the results of that as yet, haven't asked.

I have a problem believing that I am THAT important to this forum that I could have THAT much influence on what PSU does or does not do. I almost NEVER posted to him. I do note that several folks went over to his thread and provided him with as much moral outrage as they could. And his thread was edited accordingly.

Larry

Ick!

Empathy Larry. Empathy.

disheartening response ...

No where in any of the information posted on this thread so far contradicts Dr. H's opinion that what you had was an affairage.

Dr. H says you were an OM. It really is that simple.

Dr. H implies that you interfered in another man's marriage and took his wife and children as your own. It really is that simple.

Anything added to these facts that I just stated is nothing more than a history rewrite. It really is that simple.

So far I see NO repentance, only justification. I would assume that Dr. H allowed you to reopen this subject in hopes that you might actually become a repentant man for having stolen another man's wife and family. This would allow you to move on and be an asset to his forum. Anything other than that is pure conjecture and history rewrite.

Larry, I know we've been talking off forum and I will not share what you've discussed with me; but you've not been repentant off the forums either. I cannot support you unless you come clean. This thread is not you coming clean. IMO this thread is you justifying your actions of the past by combining them with some perceived attack by Mr. and Mrs. W. IMO there was no attack, and I don't believe Dr. H's email supports it either.

Just my .02; but it really is that simple.

Please stop the history rewrite.

I am providing facts to refute straw men. I am offended by straw men, aren't you?

It is a straw man assumption that I had anything to do with PSU leaving this forum.

Where is the fact to substantiate that assumption?

You might also take a look at Justuss' post. The PURPOSE of this thread is so I could refute the false by providing access to the FACTS!

I have also chosen, for those who have carefully read what I have said, to also confess my own sins that I own. I have no intention of allowing others to confess sins they think I own which I in fact have no ownership of.

My kid needs attention. I will be back.

Larry

FWIW, believer, I see what you see.

Larry, while I have mixed feelings about your situation and the beginning of your relationship with your WW, I HAVE seen you take responsibility - and then a post immediately after that is raking you over the coals for not taking responsibility.

You repeat it - and it STILL isn't enough. It will never be enough for some.

These kinds of exchanges are why I don't post much anymore. I appreciate how you have handled what you have been dealt here.

Well said, wildhorses.

Larry, at best this was a Pyrrhic victory. At worst it was simply another venue for those who have issues with you.

I wonder how to reconcile Justuss's request


with some posters' need for absolute historical honesty. Has anyone given this any thought?

I look at it this way: I owe the people in my real life historical honesty; they are the ones I love and care for and with whom I spend my time. I don't owe posters on an internet forum anything of the kind. I make no secret of the fact that I am a FWW, but I don't go trumpeting it. If someone doesn't care for what I have to say, they are free to disagree with it or disregard it - it's that simple.

This seems like such a tempest in a teapot to me.

pk

Fantastically said, ITA.

The thing is B, Larry INVITED them to look it up. He said he had nothing to hide......so Mr. W wasn't being creepy, he was given permission to do this...


it started out on a thread on Historical Hoensty, where Larry had trouble understanding this concept, and even said that he could "poke holes" in Dr. H's theory of that........some of couldn't understand WHY he couldn't understand this.........

I would point out that what we read was a State Supreme Court decision - Larry has named the particular state in many of his posts - Both state and federal Supreme Court decisions are PUBLIC DOMAIN. It is simple to go to a state supreme court website and look up a case - You do not have to be an attorney to do so.

What sent our "baloney detectors" into overdrive and caused us to even bother looking it up, was Larry's declaration of "Btw, I'm not in an affair marriage" on a thread where no one had said a word about "affairages". That was puzzling. Never once have Mr. W or I felt the need to state "Btw, we are not in an affair marriage". That would be STRANGE. Sorta like me saying "I am not a baloney sandwich"...Why would anyone bother to do so unless somehow they were indeed a baloney sandwich??? Your words sent up the red flags, Larry. So there ya go.

Now, Larry, you actually told people on your thread to "go look it up on the web". [referring to the State Supreme Court Decision] It's pretty odd to cry foul when someone takes you up on that. Perhaps if you are concerned about people on a public forum doing what you directed them to do, um, I dunno, maybe you should reconsider your words of direction? I suppose you could ask Justuss to edit all of your posts where you mention the specific state.

Larry you keep talking about "straw man" arguments. I'm not sure how asking questions regarding the FACTS in a State Supreme Court decision qualify as such. Perhaps you consider classifying the BH in a sympathetic manner as such, since you continue to point out what an "abusive jerk" your victim [BH] is... You even go so far as to say he got what he "deserved". WOW.

It would be great if you could understand that the character of the BH IS NOT RELEVANT - Adultery is a black and white issue - ADULTERY IS ALWAYS WRONG.

After an affair, Dr. Harley recommends taking extraordinary precautions to protect against another affair occurring. He says that the conditions that led to the affair must be eliminated. Your affair with a married woman occurred because you were advising said married woman in crisis on an internet forum, correct? What is it you do here again? Advise married women in crisis, right?

I am sincerely praying for your repentance.

Mrs. W

Wildhorses


Thank you for your post. You have said what I was trying to say.

Now as for the quote above, oh man. You have mixed feelings? Thank you. Me too . . .

OMG, my feelings almost approached the old Christian flagellation routine. I have examined and re-examined what I did and what I didn't do to the point of obsession and depression. I have finally come to the conclusion that I did what I believed to be the right thing for the wrong reasons at a time, using the emotional tools I had then.

After my education here on MB, some by forum and some by Dr. Harley material on site and through books, I have a far better idea of relationships than I ever felt I needed to understand.

Which I guess is pretty typical of most guys.

If I knew then what I know now, it would have been a whole different story. Well, except I look at my son and think, "Yea, I guess my sorry mistakes had a purpose." And therein exists the conflicts of my mind. How can something so good come out of something so stupid and misguided? I guess only God has the answer to that one. And I have placed it in his hands.

I am truly sorry you have elected to not post very much. And I am even more sorry that you have elected not to post for the reasons given by you.

There are a few on here more than willing to admit my mistakes, the ones I made and the ones made up for me. I get it.

Larry

Not2


Thank you. Please provide the exact quote where I disagreed with Dr. Harley. If what I said would cause anyone to believe that dumb me would disagree with Dr. Harley, then I would be pleased with the opportunity to fall on that sword.

I seen a few on here disagree with the good doctor. Please be assured that I am not one of those.

I finally got Historical Honesty. The difficulty I had, I honestly had is because my brain is cluttered up with all this cultural stuff I study. I own personal HH. I was having difficulty understanding how it applies to our culture and I didn't know WHY I was having the problem. I asked for help, which finally degenerated to someone calling me dishonest.

At that point, my brain shut down.

Larry

Larry, I am surprised (but shouldn't be considering how you claimed you didn't "understand" Historical Honesty) at how you are COMPLETELY missing the point.

The very simple point is this:


*you were/are an OM in another man's M
*despite being here almost 5 years you are claiming you didn't know you were in an "affairage".
*You are claiming an innocent "mistake" in not understanding that when a person is MARRIED and one begins an AFFAIR with them, then proceeds to MARRY them, it is called an AFFAIRAGE.
*You are obviously sharp so it's hard for us to truly believe you never put two and two together.

We do not care ONE BIT about who posts here, whether they are a BS, WS, FWS...some of the best posters here are the FWSs...Mrs. W, tst, for example. No one cares one bit that they made horrific mistakes, what we DO care about is their frank honesty NOW and that they "get" what they did. The admiration for posters such as this is GREAT.

The problem is NOT that you were/are an OM...the problem is that it was never disclosed to the board. Period, end of story.

You are trying to make this into something it is not...it is NOT an attack on you as an OM, it is a baffled response from many of us that the full truth was never told about your background.

We like honesty here. It's that simple.

Right on, MF, that is exactly the way I also feel about it. The whole truth and nothing but the truth, esp. if you are in an affairage on a surviving an affair forum...

So what does everyone want from Larry NOW?

He's apologized, come to further understanding about his relationship, done self-assessment, had a few revelations. What more do you expect? When will it ever be enough?

You don't agree with his actions. Fine, don't agree. No one is required to do so.

Everyone has vented. Now where do we go from here?

I addressed the character of the XH to provide context, to refute characterizations that were not true and a look at how I thought THEN. I thought I was "Rescuing" someone in distress.

I have acknowledged I was wrong. What is it about "I was an idiot" doesn't sink in Mrs.W?

Larry

I DO care and whether some of the "best" posters are former waywards is a matter of opinion.

And how do you KNOW the level of honesty each poster is giving you?

You don't.

But you do what you can to help with the information you have. No one is asked to sign an affidavit of honesty, sometimes they are not capable of honesty with THEMSELVES yet, let alone to other posters waiting with 2x4s - when they get there, hopefully they can do so.

I SEE Larry getting to his own realizations and addressing them. I don't GET why it is not sufficient. You'll accept it from others you consider wayward - why not Larry?

LARRY!!!

Seriously...it's not that complicated. Everyone understands that you are an OM...THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

The issue is that you NEVER ADMITTED THIS TO THE BOARD.

So you've admitted you were an idiot by getting involved with a married woman. Big whoop, that isn't the issue!

Once again...the issue is that you KEPT THIS FROM THE BOARD FOR ALMOST 5 YEARS.

Eh, he is fine by me, no problems here.

See my last post, it applies to you as well. This isn't what everyone is upset about.

Well, "everyone" isn't upset.

What would you like Larry to do NOW? How long must he take the 2x4s? What do want from him NOW?

Because Larry harmed a betrayed spouse by coming between him and his children by facilitating his then paramour's attack against that father.

And Larry's responsibility for this culpability as an OM has NOT been taken.

Personally I think it would be helpful if he had this ridiculous, justifying thread deleted and then started another thread apologizing to the board for his lack of total honesty in not admitting the M he was trying to save was actually an affairage.

But that's just me.

Except when it comes to judging your XW's current husband.
You've excelled at that.

LOL.

Sure, no problem!

The rest of your post I'll have to get back to you on, as I am busy packing for our family to go out of town...I may see if Mr. W has time, since the words you are questioning are his...


[emphasis mine]

***LINK TO THREAD***

Mrs. W

He does not OWE that to the board, IMHO.

I see him addressing each and every post, thinking it through, coming to realizations, and responding. He doesn't HAVE to agree or regurgitate what other board members tell him.

I have seen his posts where he admits to being an OM - yes, there are some rationalizations of why in his particular instance it's "different" than "normal." He is working through it. I think he will get there.

He seems to be listening. Are other posters?

I think we, as BS's, are quick to defend ANY and all other BS's, immediately pegging the BxH as the victim. Because we see excuses and exaggerations of abuse from many waywards, does that mean that abuse from a BS is NEVER true?

MarriedForever

Let me ask you a question.


How do you KNOW I never admitted it? I was exclusively on Recovery for the first few years I was here. Not once did I see that someone who was dating a married woman in process of divorce was committing either physical or emotional adultery, not one time.

How many times does that particular subject come up in context. I was blind, deaf and dumb, didn't see it, never occurred to me.

I had no hesitation to admitting a number of things in open posts. THAT IS HOW ALL THIS GOT STARTED!

I am not claiming an innocent "mistake." That is an untrue allegation. How many times do I have to say, "I was an idiot?"

Hey, I have an even better example of how someone really sharp, as you have called me, and that is marrying someone who, in hind site, was looking to be rescued? Now THAT was dumb.

Larry

Were you entirely honest with Dr. Harley, Larry? Did you not post that you had been corresponding with your ex-wife over the internet for MONTHS and had fallen in love with her?

I seem to recall reading one of your posts where you indicated that you regretted not fighting for your first-born and that his step-father had really messed him up. Am I remembering correctly? If so, why then would you work to deprive another father of his children after having the same done to you?

You're an intelligent man, and the time-line of events would suggest that you had done your research very well and knew exactly how to effect your moving his children away from him and to your state so as to maximize the liklihood of a change in custodial jurisdiction.

You complain because he wouldn't meet you half-way to pick his children up for visitation. Well, my exDiL moved to Texas, whereupon our son secured custody of his children because the judge would not allow her to move the children away from an involved and loving father. The judge told her that SHE was the one who chose to move, so she was the one responsible for transportaion for visitation...that my son should not be inconvenienced due to HER choices.

As for your ex-wife's 1st husband being abusive...well, he may or may not be. Hard to tell from your story, considering that the man may have been rightfully VERY upset over his wife's affair with you, and then to have his children taken hundreds of miles away from him.

As for the problems with your ex-wife's current husband...well, maybe he is feeling threatened by the fact that it seems he is now stuck in Texas if he wants to stay married to your ex. I'm quite sure that you'll leaev no stone unturned to make sure your son stays in Texas. Don't blame you for that...but I think it's interesting that you managed to convince your ex-wife's new husbandy to move to Texas.

It seems to me, Larry, that you strive to be a font of wisdom on these forums. Indeed, you do seem to have studied and learned the MB principles, but the thing is...it seems as if you still have a wayward mind. Enough of that wayward mindset came through your postings to raise a few hairs on the backs of our necks.

I know another poster who utters soothing words and gives MB advice...except that, sometimes, through the many pretty words, there will be a "dig" at a BS...almost like the poster is hinting that the BS is the cause of the affair. This poster, however, proved to still be a wayward in a private communication. The cruelty and evil in that communication was astounding.

I'm not saying that you're deliberately cruel or evil, but I do think you need to rethink your past actions and maybe even your future actions. You might even need to make a few apologies.

Get honest with yourself, Larry.

Dating a married woman in the process of divorce is adultery though....

My WH is with another woman and I would not date anyone until I have those divorce papers in my hand. Not only for th sake of staying faithful in my M and not stooping to my WH level, but also for any other persons sake that I may date in the future...for the exact reasons stated.

I am so glad you posted that. I thought you might.

Read what I said. I didn't think I was in an affair marriage, then I detailed an affair marriage. Good grief woman, why on earth would I detail an affair marriage as I now realize it to be and yet deny that it was in the same sentence? Excuse me, I don't understand the finger point of my lack of honesty in what you posted.

Ever seen the WKRP episode where the Station Manager comes in the door and says, "Andy, I honestly thought turkeys could fly."

Larry

Would that I had your wisdom at the time I screwed up.

Larry

This is why I get defensive on his behalf. He has stated over and over and over that he realizes this NOW. And then it is brought up again like he is disagreeing. He agrees - he was wrong.

How many more times will it take?

Honestly Larry, But if not for this website I cannot say positively that I would have done the same. So I will not be the one to judge you....I just know in my heart, it doesnt feel right to date before I am definitly divorced and I know it is officially over....

Leave us turn the tables a bit. I am going to start asking questions.

Did you see the post I made to MrsW?

How could someone post that they were NOT in an affair marriage and then in the next breath detail an affair marriage?

Larry

Folks, with great regret I admit I read this whole thread. And NOW I am going to demonstrate why I pick Just Learning for a name on this site.

I thought this site was for helping people rebuild their marriages not just from affairs, but other domestic issues.

I thought the purpose of this site was to discuss and use Dr. Harley's methods so that other people may be helped.

I thought that the merit of the advice was to be found in the advice and not necessarily in the background of the person giving it.

I thought that people did not/ do not need to know my background of the details of my life to either accept my advice as worth considering or not.

I THINK I am too old to give an credence to the Facebook mentality that people should know all about me including my bathroom habits.

There only a few people who still post here that have ever met me and although we (off site) have things in common there isn't a one that could actually say they know me.

So label me "just learning" that what I thought is not valid.

I have not always agreed with Larry's advice, but I have found it well thought out and often in line with MB philosophy. He seems to be getting better at understanding Harley's approach and consequently his advice to people has more weight to it.

Please tell me how his involvement in a court case whos side was judged to be correct, affects his advice to newbie's here?

I understand Pep's response that she does not want to advise those who are not married and resented that this woman went so far as to register with another name and made up story to get her advice.

I have advised people that were found to be trolls. It never bothered me because they either used the advice or they did not and if it was good advice perhaps some other person reading it could use it. IF anyone looks far more people look at thread than post to them.

Perhaps I am completely out of the loop, but it seems to me good advice is good advice and the measure of that is in the person that reads it, acts on it and gets good results.

I would love to say that I always gave good advice, it was always taken an acted up, and that the people involved had a better life because of it. I cannot make that claim. Further, since I did not come here originally because of an affair, I guess it could be stated that any advice I give concerning an affair is worthless, although I have easily read 10 threads for everyone I have posted too.

My point? I see nowhere that Larry lied. I see nowhere that his advice is maliceous, and see plenty of places where his advice is very good. Seems to me the man may have learned something in his life.

So explain to me why this "witch hunt" 'cause after all I am just learning.

JL

Larry - I notice still your lack of pursuit of the BIG issue here.

What about a betrayed husband who's separated from his children and you were part of that equation - the betrayal part and the keeping his children from him - and you mock the man for trying to gain some kind of contact with HIS CHILDREN!!!!

Where is your empathy? Where is your conscience for the core harm done to this betrayed man?

All you can do is quote how much of a legal lunatic he is - but no empathy for why he might be a little unhinged??

That is the biggest point of concern for me. Still.

I have attempted to answer every question directed at me.

I have provided facts as I understand them to be as they were then and as they are now.

I have asked questions as well. Most of the ones I have asked have been ignored.

I have more than admitted I was wrong. I have said "I was an idiot." I did that in one of the first posts I made on this thread and continued to say it.

Sharp (thank you, sometimes I might disagree) doesn't mean I know everything everyone on this board knows. There are holes in my knowledge. And I bet there are holes in the knowledge of everyone on this board.

Now ask yourself a question. Why is Larry doing this?

I assure you I do not need personal validation that I did the right thing, because I didn't. I don't need people beating on me about my "Lack of honesty," anybody can read what I posted that is all the proof needed to demonstrate my lack of understanding. I don't need to be rehabilitated. There are a lot of people on this forum who have been in the barrel in times past who are still here.

I could have taken the advice of someone I respect and just agreed with everyone and defused the situation.

So why am I doing this?

Larry

I haven't a clue Larry. Why ARE you doing this?

Well, there you go. Just when I decide to jump into the fray someone yanks the words right out of my mouth.

I have always read Larry's posts with interest, and I believe that he is an intelligent man who is articulate and knowledgeable. To find out he is a FOM? Um. Okay.:::shoulder shrug::: I haven't invested a lot of personal emotion in Larry. FOM, OM, xOM, whatever. I read his posts, take what I need and put the rest on the back burner. I might need that info later, might not.

I don't think it's necessary to vet every poster on here before we decide if they are pure enough to espouse any particular view. I also don't plan my day out according to what a poster does or doesn't suggest. Hey, sorry, I don't know ya! I do think it's necessary to read posts and determine whether or not the solutions works and makes sense for each of us. That's important to me.

Now. I would have a problem with Larry if I knew him irl knew that he was not using Dr. H's principles as he says he does. In that case he shouldn't be on here, championing those same principles. IOW, talk the talk and walk the walk. I think that's what Larry's doing.

Kayla


Glad to answer that question, thank you for asking.

Once it sunk in that he was being abusive to his own children, we arranged for him to see them every possible minute. Read what I posted on that. He elected and made the decision to NOT have his kids. We negotiated 112 days total per year, then he backed out. It is my understanding, he did so because he still thought he had a chance to throw XW in jail. I do not have independent validation of that.

And I am not mocking the man. That is your word. You have no knowledge of the soul searching that went on between XW and me over this exact issue. I had been an every other week dad in a previous marriage many years ago and I hated it. If the man had showed one ounce of caring more for his kids than he did for getting revenge on his XW . . .

This revenge deal is part and parcel for way too many divorces. And it just isn't right. Neither is holding the kids back from their dad or mom. The child psychologist is the one who convinced us that something had to be done.

Not every "Betrayed husband" is a paragon of virtue. Some of them are real stinkers, which is reality. That has absolutely nothing to do with the simple fact that I screwed up and was clueless that I had done so under the definition of an "Affairage" until a bit more than a week ago. Wait...

I meant I long ago figured out I screwed up. That this also meant I was in an "Affairage" hit me between the eyes about a week ago. That added to my feelings of stupid and shame.

Larry

I am trying bliss, I am trying.

Larry

Unfortunatly, for me, I do find myself caring very deeply for a few of the the posters on this forum. It is actually why I have taken a break for a few months. It can be emotionally draining and I dont know for sure, but may hinder my own recovery. If I found out that I was being misled by a poster that I invested my heart into (not Larry per se, I am just sayin') I would be very hurt.

But I guess that is my own problem not necessarily the posters.

Larry, is my understanding of this correct?

Your XW was living in one state at the time of her divorce. You married and she moved to be with you in another state.

However, her XH had been awarded regular visitation by the courts in the first state. He could not exercise this legal right when you and your then wife moved the children to the new state. It was too far for him to see his children several times per week.

He sued up to Supreme Court level and lost, partly because you taped his furious telephone calls. His anger was no doubt at his impotence against the judicial system, which was allowing you to live with his children in another state.

Have I understood the legal events clearly? If not, could you please explain them?

The longer his children lived in the new state whilst the appeals were undertaken, the less likely the courts were to enforce their return to the old one. I would guess that your marriage and removal of his children to a new state had a lot to do with cooking his goose over his court-awarded visitation.

Witch hunt?

Well, I really don't know where to start. I guess just where it began for me.

I posted stuff (fluffy suggestions) to Larry on his (locked) divorcing thread, because, IMO he had his nose way too far into his XW's current marriage.

At the time, I thought Larry was husband #1, not husband #2.


It seemed he was out of line knowing so much about their marriage and being his XW's confidant. At least, it seemed that way to me. She is another man's wife now, and outside of shared custody issues, her marriage problems are none of his business.
Larry begged to differ.
XW's marriage is his business because her current husband is a (insert judgmental insults here), according to Larry.

OK. Fine.
I back off.

I especially back off because Larry has thrown in his opinion that XW has "RN syndrome" .... which is basically his opinion that nurses marry someone to rescue them. I sense this is a little dig at me. But, never mind.

OK.
Fine.
I back off.

Then, come to find out that Larry married XW 2 weeks after her divorce, and, larry fought the BH in court ... with the intention of denying the BH child custody.

So, it appears to me that XW's marriages are apparently Larry's business.
The marriage before Larry, and the marriage after Larry.


There is always a good reason why Larry makes XW's marriage his business, according to Larry.
The reason is because both those husbands were (insert judgmental insults here).

Beyond the past events, it appears to this observer that Larry is trying to break up her current M, for the same "reasons" he helped end her first marriage.

Call me a crazy witch huntress, but this seems VERY non-MB to me.

1. I was surprised to learn Larry was H #2. (not H #1)
2. I was surprised to learn Larry had been divorced 3 times, not once.
3. I was surprised to learn that Larry thought he was doing the right thing when he helped (then) wife take BH's kids out of state.

OK.
Fine.
I'll back off.

JL

I could respond to your whole post, but I won't. You made your points as you always do, plenty of thought and plenty of perspective. And a bit of humility. BTW, your posts to TB about TB_11 I think really, really helped him - along with another guy whose name I forget, who backed you up.

Anyway:


I left this board because the passion was gone and with it went my ability to help. Sometimes I felt as if I hadn't learned a darn thing. I decided to come back for a couple of reasons, one that I needed to be productive in something that interested me and two, I wanted to engage in an intensive study of Dr. Harley's methods and concepts - and his delivery technique.

I read threads and site information for a month before I posted to the first thread. Subsequently, I have a library of three books in a convenient location and I spend about 15 minutes a day reading. Before I post any thread where I have a doubt, I go to the site information or a book and try to find a reference to give me a better framework. I am a fairly fast reader, upwards of roughly 600 to 800 words a minute which covers a fair amount of ground in a 15 minute session.

The reasons for 15 minutes is that allows me to absorb what I am reading for comprehension. Thanks for noticing that I am getting better. I try.

And somewhere along the line, I never read a definition of affairage that I understood applied to me until a week ago.

Ouch.

Thanks JL.

Larry

Larry, I've been wayward, I recognize "tap dancing" when I see it...As Mel would say, "That's not even GOOD bullcrap!"

Really. Try again.

Know what's missing? Lack of a HUMBLE HEART. EMPATHY.

Instead you are giving us an "Okay, I screwed up, so sue me! Move on."...Not exactly repentance - It is OBVIOUS that there has been no "heart change"...and it is sad - FOR YOU - FOR YOUR CHILDREN...

There is no true ownership.

Not just on this either - You talked on another thread about your own son being a miserable human being - and you blamed his STEPFATHER for that...That really shocked me...Especially since you have admitted to being a WS in another marriage. Was it that marriage, Larry - the one that produced the son you speak so poorly of?

And YES, this is the SAME DEAL as the other board where you met your last wife - a married woman in crisis is a married woman in crisis...You advised a married woman in crisis and ended up having an affair with her! Your own extraordinary precaution should be to NEVER EVER EVER again advise a married woman in crisis on an internet forum...or anywhere else for that matter - That would be a HEALTHY BOUNDARY, Larry - A boundary that would protect YOU and others around you...

My affair was with an ex-boyfriend - Can you imagine the look on Mr. W's face if I were to begin communications with another ex-bf and then say to him, "Oh, it's not the same, honey - this guy and I weren't that close - we didn't date for as long as the OM and I did - this time it's cool!" Or some other such nonsense? I can assure you, I'd get my walking papers and Mr. W would be ABSOLUTELY CORRECT to do so...That would mean that I was still fine with practicing RISKY BEHAVIOR - that I was still cool with having SHODDY BOUNDARIES...He would be wise to run for the hills if that were the case! It's up to YOU, Larry to put extraordinary precautions in place - Will power is VERY unreliable - good solid boundaries are the ONLY way...

Larry, final question for now - How do you think Heartsore would feel if he knew that one of his chief advisors was an OM who helped a WW steal the children of a BH? Heartsore whose WW also took their children and moved to where OM lived...I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that he'd likely not appreciate that tidbit being withheld from him...

Mrs. W

I will look for a MB philosophy reference which indicates it is a good idea to insert one's self into an X spouses current marriage.
Especially if the current spouse senses something is amiss, and becomes jealous.

I was exclusively on the Recovery board when I first came here as well, what does this have to do with anything?



Ohhhh...I bet and would venture to say that you DID (there are tons around, they stick out like a sore thumb WHEN you are senstive to them)...and I also would guess that the reason you didn't "see" them was because you thoughtit didn't apply to you. Your situation was "different", right? (You've already admitted that you were wrong here so I'm not saying anything you yourself haven't said).


Right, as I said above...your sitch was "different".


Maybe I've misunderstood you...so you're admitting you were an idiot not only in having an A with a MW, but ALSO in supposedly not realizing it was an affairage AND admitting this to the board from the get-go?

ARE you admitting these things or only the OM part?

But Bliss, can you appreciate that Heartsore [and I'm certain MANY others] DID invest in Larry - Heartsore had an email relationship with Larry - he did that based upon the belief that he was being helped by another BH, NOT an OM - NOT someone who had done EXACTLY what the OM in his case was doing to him and his children!

Did you know that Larry emailed Mr. W CONSTANTLY regarding the Heartsore situation? Do you understand that Mr. W would NEVER EVER have discussed Heartsore's situation with an OM?

Did you know that both Larry's and Mr. W's posts from HERE were used against Heartsore in court?

As I said earlier, ultimately Heartsore's WW was allowed to move WITH their children to where OM lives...Sound familiar? It chills my blood...

I would LOVE to be able to re-read the Heartsore thread knowing what I know now. Unfortunately that thread went "poof" because of all that Heartsore went through just based upon posts here on the forum...



I have stated it before and I will state it again - It is my opinion that the perspective of people giving advice here DOES matter.

Mrs. W

**edit**

That is probably the most effective and devastating piece of criticism and conclusion I have ever seen on someone's character; as based on selected bits and pieces. **edit**

You sure you're right?

Larry

Pep,

You said

I don't recall anyone saying that. But then I don't recall this thread being about that. I was started with Larry stating his ignorance of what constitutes an "affairage" and Harley setting him straight.

I see statements that he "took" another man's children by helping the exW, yet it was the courts that made that determination. I don't like how men get treated in court and I don't like seeing men losing the ability to see their children do to rediculous claims by exW's BUT, is that really the issue that is causing all of this?

IF someone asks me if this is the right thing to do, I will say no. But, I have conversed with many people on this site that did things I don't agree with when I find out about some details.

You don't like how he acted, I would agree if the facts are as you state. That does not invalidate good advice to someone seeking a path and a plan.

Larry answered the questions asked and the answers were not accepted, what is he supposed to do?

I am not defending his actions, I am questioning the reasons for the vitriol. I have seen it happen on this site too many times and frankly I don't like it much. It detracts from the purpose of this site. There have been posters on this site that were rude, mean, ignorant, and well supported. That I never understood and surely that behavior was more detrimental to the newbies here than whatever Larry has or has not said.

Hence my comments and question.

I will end with the thought that many people "believe" that it is OK to date if a divorce has been filed or a legal separation has occurred. Many people seem to think living together is the same as being married. I strongly disagree with both but then I am an old fart has was taught that living together was not a good idea and certainly NOT just like marriage and that married people were married until they were not. But, I will say many people don't think that. Apparently Larry did not. He now knows better and from Harley's letter he has a very good reason to understand Harley's point of view.

JL

Interesting that people are saying PSBU left "because" of Larry. Whenever a WS leaves it is because "they can't face the truth" or "they are as guilty as sin" or can't look at themselves".

If it is EVER suggested that someone's post or nastiness made them leave that suggestion is treated with disdain and laughter. I can find chapter and verse if you really want me to go through a ton of posts. ****edit****

MrsW.



**edit**

My exchange of emails was a pittance with heartsore compared to the two of you. I was OUTRAGED at the whole event as were the two of you. I saved all of my emails from that time.

Mr.W is an Attorney. He and heartsore worked on the selection of the loser Lawyer heartsore ended up with. I had absolutely nothing to do with that, period.

**edit**

Larry

How is this all relevant?

Unfortunately, I don't trust OM's & OW's.

OM's/OW's lie.

That is, the unrepentent ones.


**edit**

They take liberties with timelines and histories are rewritten or down right lied about.

Just a couple examples:


This post back then doesn't make him out to be an "abuser" and the only things you knock him for are his actions after you stole his children. I've actually read about 15 or so posts of yours about your ex-wife's ex-husband and no where was he described as abusive to her as you made him sound in your posts above and letter to Dr. Harley. It's just convenient to portray him as such NOW (though IRRELEVANT).

Addtionally, you seem to misportray the facts of the case back in 2005 and NOW again this past week or so. Your xw WAS found in contempt in Kentucky and only by recording his phone calls with his children MONTHS after stealing them a 1,000 miles away to Texas and filing an emergency petition IN TEXAS were you able to LUCKILY beat the contempt charge. I say LUCKY because the Supreme Court didn't REALLY rule in your favor, it ruled that the District Court Judge erred when he/she held that he/she didn't have jurisdiction to overrule the Texas Court. As it turned out, the District Court Judge could have saved you all a lot of time and money by enforcing his contempt order and making her (and you) bring back the Betrayed Husband's kids to Kentucky. IMO, after reading the case, your X should have been thrown in jail (you too, as a co-conspirator) but as we know...the courts are BLIND to affairs and adultery.

You also never answered my question: How much time did you give her x-husband to appear and defend himself IN TEXAS when you filed the EMERGENCY motion for custody and supervised visitation IN TEXAS??? One week is the norm, isn't it? Also, did he know you recorded his calls and hired a pyschiatrist (that never spoke to him) to make him appear a monster in Texas??

**edit**


He spent about FIVE YEARS fighting for his kids...some monster!!!!

Then there is this discrepancy:


You see...I KNOW from the Court case that she filed in late March and moved out two days later. The divorce was final in early August. That's a little over 4 months. AM I CORRECT??? Well in the emails above to Dr. Harley and the quotes above you try to make it appear you didn't even really know her much BEFORE she filed for divorce and then just before the divorce was final you started to more or less date her. However, the quote above from just the other day implies MONTHS of much more intimate contact.

Which is it?

THAT is the crux of the problem. I don't trust you and I don't believe you. I LOVE this place. It's way more than just a chat room or bulletin board TO ME. MB saved my marriage from the brink of disaster. It was only by good fortune and the grace of God that the OM in our life wasn't cunning, smart and wealthy enough to steal my wife and fund the removal of my daughter to Georgia or I'd likely be in the EXACT SAME position as your wife's ex-husband. Further, I would be SCARED TO DEATH if say my sister, mother or any female friend came here betrayed and got advice from you. You were 60 years old at the time you "counselled" and then "rescued" this vulnerable 25 year old woman you CLAIM NOW was in a distressed abusive marriage. REAL licensed counselors lose their licenses for such....do you know why??? Because it's predatorish and yet you are posting here and developing posting and email relationships with more women in distressed marital and pending divorce situations. NO SINGLE DIVORCED MAN should really be running around these boards and contacting such distressed women (I don't have specific examples right now but you've invited many poeple to email you many times and it raises red flags NOW, knowing what I know about your history]. It's disconcerting to me, no matter how NICE you appear on the surface.

Finally... you've yet to give any indication whatsoever you intend to or think the ex-husband AND/OR STEP KIDS even deserve an apology. It also appears you believe the end justifies the means. IMO, repentence includes a willingness to sacrifice all ill-gotten gains. Your son does not JUSTIFY the means you utilized to obtain him. He's a blessing, I'm sure, all children are but still a regret to the extent that if you had to do it all over again [as if time machines existed] YOU WOULDN'T.

Where to go from here....how about a contrite empathetic thread wherein you discuss with others not so disgusted or mistrusting of you how you can TRULY become a FORMER OTHER MAN. SEEK HELP. I certainly don't think you have to STOP POSTING but PERHAPS you could consider giving a short signature disclosure of your history such that NEWBIES and other BS's can choose to communicate with you OR NOT...their choice. Others can come up with other ideas.

Mr. Wondering <---the real "straw-man" as you (and a couple others) try to make your typical wayward unrepentent behavior about ME, my wife and our supposed nefarious intentions.

A reminder that it is ok to discuss the issues and ask questions but it is not ok to make personal attacks! Please keep this respectful or the thread will be locked.

I have been waiting for you Mr. Wondering. And now you are here.

You have invested a considerable amount of time painting me out to be a bad person. I appreciate the time you have invested, if not the conclusion you have arrived at.

As I found out when you started in on me before, I could not compete with you counselor. I don't have the years of experience you have making black into white or vice versa.

I have only a couple of things to say:

The first is that I said what I said when I said it, in context with an ongoing discussion. Making it appear that I was talking out of both sides of my mouth is a representation of yours, not a statement that is true, from my perspective.

I too have grown fond of this forum and the board. And I think I have something to offer here. Maybe not. Time will tell.

Here is a problem I have.


I asked earlier if anyone could guess why I was going through this ordeal.

JL answered the question.

He has a habit of doing that for folks. I appreciate his honesty and his perception.

My whole record is here or available for those who want to take a look. In some places, I displayed at attitude that I didn't get it. In other places I showed that I did. Both cases were true representations, much like the newbies show when they come on board or try to read to work up their courage to post.

I subjected myself to this little repeat bit of character assassination because I too have seen too much of it on this forum. And it frankly makes me queasy. And way too often, it is the same players, who so often do such a great job, and yet at times, engage in doing to others what has been done to me.

Go back and read, if you will, my letter to Dr. Harley.

I have at all times told the truth, the whole truth as I understand it to be and nothing but the truth, in context with questions asked, situations analyzed and need for information exposed.

And the hyperbole has risen skyward the more it looks as if I intend to hang around instead of allowing myself to be run off. And anyone who came to my defense was immediately shot down in flames.

Think about it, I'm done, for now. I have a kid to take care of.

Larry

Larry...

Between the two of us...

Who assissinated your character???

Unsure?

Let's ask your ex-wife's ex-husband.

Mr. Wondering <-strawman of the day

Kiwi - PSU was NOT a WS.

He was betrayed. If you've read his story, his then-wife filed a protection order and then moved the OM into PSU's home. He has had to field MANY legal maneuvers by his X which have been encouraged and aided by OM. She moved his children out of state and sued for more support.

PSU is in EXACTLY the same situation as the betrayed X-husband of Larry's affairage-wife.

In PSU's case, I would be sick as h*ll that the man spouting loads of MB wisdom is the same as the poisonous creature now getting more time with his kids than the rightful father is.

That's what the alarm and outrage and Larry is about.

And he still has no empathy for his victim.

It's still all about justifying himself.

Period.

I also found it interesting (and disgusting) that, on another forum, when someone inquired as to Larry's well-being, the responder said that he had spoken to Larry and that Larry's stepchildren were accepting him as their "real father".

I WONDERED why I hadn't seen PSU around.

This will be my only post here. I advise everyone to stop trying to tell Larry what he's done wrong, what he is still doing wrong.

It's only going to give you a headache.

I agree with Kayla--

Are you proud of yourself, Larry? How about you tell them what you've done to their REAL father? I never had the chance at a father that would fight for me for five years.

The children will find out and you will never truly replace their real father. You have some seriously BAD karma coming your way, and if you're religious, well, you already know.

But I have no business saying this, I'm a newbie at this after all.

Kayla Andy I am very well aware that PSU was not a WS. I was just pointing out a double standard that ALWAYS happens around here.

It just really GALLS me that Larry is being picked on in the usual way by the usual people.

I have a great deal of admiration for Dr. H and I am certainly not going to attack either him or Larry or Markos. But, recognizing that Dr. H is free to practice counseling as he sees fit, I must respectfully disagree a bit.

The above view seems to say �once the affairage-couple has �tied-the-knot�, then nothing prior matters�it�s a clean slate and should be looked at just like any other marriage�. I am afraid I cannot concur. Putting aside the personal issues just between the partners that inevitably accompany such relationships (such as the fact that both affair-partners always lie about and to each other), there seem to be a couple of very key differences that separate affairages from �original� marriages:

1. Maybe if you are not �religious� this means little to you, but Judeo-Christian doctrine clearly invalidates these �marriages� from a moral/�Godly� perspective. The Bible is very specific on the conditions under which divorce and re-marriage are allowed. Except for those, the spouse(s)-in-question is/are considered forever morally MARRIED to their original partner(s) no matter what their residency or legal status may be. Such persons are explicitly forbidden to re-marry anyone else. I guess I�m struck by two things here. One is how often affairages, whether or not the parties actively proclaim Judeo-Christian spiritual beliefs, take place in a church and/or are officiated by a clergy-member. That seems oddly incongruous given the fact that the parties are so blatantly violating the explicit teachings they are inherently referencing as the basis for their union. The second is Dr. Harley�s own sincere Christian background. No offense, but I wonder how he reconciles his personal belief system with how he chooses to practice his profession.

2. The outwardly noble goal of a helping 2 people stay together completely ignores the xBS(s) in an affairage. It would matter little I suppose if the xBS(s) had already re-married themselves or had overtly rejected a sincere attempt at reconciliation, but we all know that is rarely the case. Most affairages take place hot on the heels of the divorce(s) and are therefore a further intentional repudiation of the original marriage(s), the original spouse(s), and of possible post-divorce reconciliation. In short, they are another extremely hurtful betrayal to the ex-spouse(s) whom, after all, were FIRST sworn fidelity and devotion by the same person(s) years before. It appears the incentive produced to the wayward(s) is �affair-marry as soon as legally possible to �hit the reset button� and be absolved of responsibility�. We see advice here all the time that �the best option is to return to your original spouse� � how is that furthered by validating the affair-relationship merely because some government has stamped it with a legal designation?

I guess I�m uncomfortable with complete non-judgmentalism for all that went into it before merely because two cheaters later found someone who would sign a license for them. We all know that every WS scapegoats and demonizes their BS to rationalize their affair, so I don�t really buy that excuse�and, if the BS/xBS was indeed so irredeemably horrid, the other spouse always had the far better option of divorcing to be on their own BEFORE accepting the romantic attachments of another.

My thoughts, with all due respect to those who feel otherwise.

****edit****

Kiwi - I'm sorry you feel I'm a "usual suspect". Or some of the others asking Larry to look inward at his behavior toward a betrayed husband who he facilitated destruction upon.

I only remember calling out a few other MBers as frauds before. In fact - can count them on one hand.

Larry isn't a troll. But he's a troubled man with issues that prevent him from giving untainted advice.

Let me put it this way. I grew up in a community where the predominant church works from a lay-ministry. That means that every five to ten years the local leaders get released and a new "volunteer" gets called to be in charge of a small congregation or a group of congregations.

My brother built a machine to handle a certain task on a farm that would have cost about $15000 to buy from the implement store. One of those "lay ministers" who in his regular life was a farmer asked my brother to build one of those machines for $5000 - gave him $1000 down payment. He borrowed the finished machine my brother had already built but then when my brother needed it said that he was keeping it and not paying the balance he'd promised.

Guess how I felt about the leader of that congregation.

Could I have taken advice from that leader?

It's tough to see someone parading around with the doctrine of MB with the proficiency of an ordained minister, yet in his real life know that he has UNAPOLOGETICALLYlaid the seeds of destruction against another man and his children. If he expressed a hint of remorse about THIS action - helping this wayward woman take her children out of state to be raised and nurtured to love another man more than their own father - to recognize this outrageous wrong he participated in, then I could move on and let Larry be the wise man and the MB he loves to be. BUT HE HASN'T!!

Larry - when someone takes your kids and moves them 2000 miles away from you, let's see how sane you stay about the justice of the situation or the costs of visitation or anything else. Let's see you keep your composure. Let's see you pass a psych eval then!

You owe this man a softened heart. And to look at your wife and your duplicity toward him with renewed eyes.

SDCW, I'm going to clarify my former comment, slightly for your benefit.

First of all, know that my mother is off somewhere in an affairage. Your comments reminded me of her. I don't often think of her. She's been off married to that guy for more years than I can remember.

While I disagree with you on some specific technical points of Biblical interpretation, I agree that Judeo-Christian principles do not allow such people to marry. Were I a Christian clergyman, I would not perform their marriage. And there are specific affairage situations where, like many on this forum, I would not help them in any way.

But in the absence of specific details, the only thing I know to do is let God destroy the affairage as He seems often to do. There are legitimate Christian disagreements about whether or not a WS can remarry after being forgiven for their sin of adultery. There are also legitimate Christian disagreements about whether or not divorce is the proper solution to a marriage that began as an affair. And the situation gets even more complicated with questions like whether or not the betrayed spouse has remarried (I wasn't even thinking of that earlier; in cases I know, the betrayed spouse usually has), and whether or not both people in the marriage were in the same state (sometimes a completely innocent person marries someone unscripturally divorced -- is divorce the solution to that?). If God forgives people and gives them the ability to make their marriage work, I feel that I am not one to argue. The Bible is there for them to read and I hope they do not sear their consciences over and if it is a problem I hope they will see it.

Here on this forum, I'm usually not going to be privy to the details. I'm just going to be able to say: "Here's what it takes to make a marriage work, and there's a million odds against you if your marriage started as an affair." Most of them are not going to do what it takes, even when it is handed to them on a silver platter, frankly.

Although I do agree that Larry has helped out many people on these forums, and sometimes even goes onto threads that others have decided to abandon(myself included), I also understand the negative feelings expressed by others.

I believe that DrH says that he does not judge "affairages" and will help them gain a great M the MB way. I do however remember an article(I so wish I remembered where it was) where DrH was counseling a man. He came to DrH about the problems in his current marriage which was an affairage. DrH advised the man to D his current W and go back to his original wife because he would have a better chance having a successful and happier M with her.

I also believe that we can learn some valuable lessons from Larry and his experiences. Afterall, that is what we all have to offer this forum, our own personal experiences as they pertain to MB.

A little part of me was happy to learn that Larry's affairage had an A in it as well. I am ashamed of that part. I don't like that side of me. That is the betrayed wife in me being happy that an AP got their "just desserts." I will put her away again. She does me no good.

Dont be ashamed of enjoying a little justice Scotland. Nuttin wrong wit dat.

****edit****

Sorry, Dufresne.

(Editing) - Please do NOT come back and repost references to edited materials

This is getting disgusting.

Pep asked what witch hunt? THese last few pages sure seems like one to me.

Folks, the is Dr. Harley's site. Anyone is free to have their own opinions BUT to question Harley's morality, to question what he feels is the right thing to do and then nail someone on this site because they fall under that category seems a bit odd.

Folks, everyone has expressed their opinion and offered their moral judgement of Larry. If you would please let's get back to help folks on this site, there is no shortage.

JL

Markos,

Thank you for your reply and I appreciate the intellectual discussion.

I won�t quibble about the finer points of theology or about �out-of-the-ordinary� affairage. Let�s take just the �typical� affairage�the setup that occurs in the majority of circumstances:

The WS & OP (who is often married as well) �meet� platonically at work or wherever.
The WS & OP are FULLY AWARE of the respective marital status of the other.
The affair-partner(s) certainly know that they themselves are married.
They enter into an affair fully knowing in advance that (at least one of them) is married.
WS-fog ensues (we know the drill), the BS(s) are cast aside, and wrenching, unwanted divorce(s) follow.
The WS & OP affair-marry each other�usually pretty much �as soon as the ink is dry�.

I cannot condone the above under any circumstances. I�m sure you cannot as well. The �marriage� is morally and ethically invalid regardless of how long it endures and how determined either of them are to continue it. I would never help anyone trying to �save� such a union and do not consider the dissolution of it to be a loss of anything of value. I know that may seem harsh, but nothing good is being accomplished by prolonging or validating something that never should have been in the first place. I cry no tears for this.

Nor do I, but your words carry more weight than mine, so I'll just agree with you.

(Not meant in a rude tone, I actually mean it. Vets' opinions do carry more weight)

I do so agree!!!

I have never posted before even though I'm a long time lurker. I am so appalled by the nastiness of this thread, that I'm embarassed to admit that I'm still reading!

Where is the empathy and compassion for another fellow man who makes mistakes like the rest of us humans?

What is the point of all this ugliness? Who's trying to prove what? And to what end?

I would like to add that I am a BS trying to recover my marriage.

I do feel for you Larry, and I wish I had never started reading this thread. My bad!!!!

As I mentioned earlier in this thread:

I believe the "we" in "we don't judge them" refers to Dr. Harley's professional counseling service.

If you go to a professional for care, they will help you without "judgment". If you have an STD or a gunshot wound or a heroin overdose or an affairage and need help for any of those things, a professional is required to objectively help you if you go to them and they are not allowed to "judge" you.

That's why the Harley counseling service pretty much *has* to be open to all. I'm sure that hospital emergency rooms don't like drunk drivers either, but they will try to save their lives the same as anyone else's because they are professionals and are required to do so.

I'm sure the Harleys look at affairages the same way - not something they like or endorse, but something they will encounter from time to time in their professional capacity as counselors/coaches. They can't discriminate on a professional basis without danger of going out of business.

It's different on these boards. The Harleys are in this professionally. We are not.

Actually, that post where Dr. Harley told the man to go back to his wife was a little different than that.

The man in question was now LIVING with his affair partner and had been for many years. They were NOT married. And lo and behold, she was cheating on HIM. (What a shock, eh?)

After many posts between the man and MB posters, Dr. Harley graciously posted. That is where he said that, frankly, the man would be better off going back to his wife than continuing what he was doing.

I wish I was better technically and could find that post. It is a couple years old I believe. There is more to it and the condensation here does not tell the whole story.

God bless Dr. Harley.

You may be right but I do think that it was a letter and not necessarily a post but I may be wrong. I am HUMAN and I make mistakes and as such, I am willing to ADMIT them and LEARN from them so I will not REPEAT them in the future. I have read A LOT on this site. I remembered what DrH advised because it was a SHOCK to me. I have tried to figure out where I saw it but I will look again.

I think it was a letter too...I remember reading it.

I think this is the thread y'all are talking about~~~> On outside looking in - Dr. Harley's Post

Mrs. W

It may be. I am going to read the thread and see if it sounds familiar. Thanx MrsW.

I believe this as well about the Harleys. I'm sure they view affairage-counseling (when they even know it's an affairage in advance--probably rarely) as something distasteful they have to do as part of their business or professional obligation. Dr. H has posted/written about how he tries in these situations even knowing that it's almost always hopeless--and he's explained why it is that way as well.

Well, Since I couldn't find anything else, this is most likely it. I could have sworn it was a letter though. Well, I have read A LOT of things on here at differing points in my journey.

I was WRONG. I APOLOGIZE for taking DrH's words and managing to change them to something he did not intend. It was NOT my intention to mislead anyone. I truly believed that I read it the way I remembered. I made a mistake and I will try not to repeat it in the future.

I'm not so sure on this. I think only the good doctor can opine regarding what he finds truly distasteful regarding his profession, but I would bet a diet coke that ALL treatment falls into the same category -- a sincere desire to repair a marriage.

A surgeon may find certain procedures unpalatable but returning the patient to a state of health is the primary goal. Whether the specific ailment is distasteful only detracts from focusing on the recuperation of the patient.

I have thrown my two cents out there on KA's thread ('Just Learning'). No need for me to regurgitate here.....

Thanks,
TB

Well I dont know, but when Dr. Harley compares the trauma of an affair to the trauma of being raped, and that does not even include what it does to children, and the fact that an affairage has about a 1% chance of even surviving....sounds to me like he thinks of them as pretty distasteful to say the least, no?

In fact, (see his Infidelity Video) Dr. H states that marital infidelity is MORE emotionaly traumatizing than even rape or physical assault. The only life event that is demonstrably more so is the death of a child. Note, this is not just Dr. H's personal opinion--it has been verified in numerous psychological studies on PTSD.

It has also been demonstrated that affairages end in divorce over 95% of the time over a lifetime and that many do so within the first 5 years (~75%). The "happily-ever-after" fantasy at the outset of affairages very rarely pans out in reality over the long-term for many obvious reasons.

That can't be very inspiring to a man as devoted to marriage as Dr. H is. I can't speak for him...just surmising.

No problem, HOWEVER, for the RECORD, I never said, nor implied that you DISAGREED with Dr. Harley, I said you have trouble understanding this concept...I do NOT appreciate your mangling of my words....


This is the quote that started the whole Radical/Historical Honesty thread......


Well, I have NO problem stating *I* was the anyone. AGAIN, I never said you disagreed, only you misunderstood, so I suppose it will be THAT technical error which will keep you from falling on the sword......


You are painting a different picture than what you said that day. You barely touched on the whole cultural stuff, and instead went on a crazy rampage about it being a gender difference issue.....to which, is STILL an insult the many HONEST, GOOD men who post on these boards. In fact, Mark refuted your assessment........


Actually, you were called out on being foggy first......you had a couple of replies which sounded a whole lot like the fogbabble we all have gotten from WS.....Something, many around here are pretty good a picking up......

not2fun

Look, I'm not going to sit here and say that Dr. H does cartwheels and high-fives whenever he's asked to assist with an affairage. Plus, this particular scenario is kind of meandering into the 'The Land of The Ever-Present Tangents'. I see your points, though, SD and SH. I really do.

I think we are all pretty clear that affairages have the potential to do great damage to others. I don't think anyone would argue with that premise. And of course, the degree of harm can vary from one relationship to another.

Thanks,
TB

Thank you Mrs. W. I appreciate the effort to find the thread.

Larry,

I'm bringing a piece of our long off forum discussion over here. I think since you said my post that labeled you an OM started the firestorm that this and my response were relevent here, as well as in our private discussion. So here goes;

----------------
Larry to tst;

tst, Let me address your slap down. You did it with labels instead of concepts. Concepts are fine, labels are not fine. The reason is that labels paint a false picture. The false picture is because you have no idea what the label means to the person you are attempting to influence.

-----------------
tst to Larry;

Larry,

Labels DO matter to me as much as the concepts. The labels only hurt when they still stick.

None of the labels I've repented and made ammends for stick to me any more.

Once I've repented and made ammends, the wreckage of my past is clean and I receive forgiveness.

God tells me that before I make an offering to Him (like helping others), I need to leave the offering, go make ammends and then come back to Him with my offerings. My offerings will not be received, nor should they, until I complete this arduous journey.

See Larry, in my life I've been an alcoholic, drug addict, thief, adulterer, OM, WH, etc. but these all fall to the ground when true repentance, through the ammends process, has occured with everyone I've harmed. In return, the lessons and my message become powerful as a result of those labels that once stuck to me, as long as I remember to give God the Glory.

Giving Him the Glory is the offering!

tst

When we meet someone, whether in real life or online, and that person seems like a nice person who seems willing to share knowledge and help with us, it is natural to want to get to know this person better and to seek out the help he kindly offers.

Sometimes, after we get to know this person, he will occasionally say things that just don't "sit right" with us...they don't reflect the person that we originally thought he was. As time goes on, we learn more about the person, and it turns out that his character does not seem to be as sterling as we originally thought. His previous actions may seem to be deliberately cruel and selfish, and he shows no sign of real remorse for those action and even defends them.

That person may still be giving out advice that could be helpful, but I now have a problem with accepting that advice. I can no longer consider this person to be trustworthy, because there is the possibility that his advice may be tainted with his own perception of how I might achieve my goals. I would never want to feel that it is fine and dandy to hurt someone else and take what is theirs.

Everyone does things that may not be what someone of good character would do, but a person of good character will face up to his wrongdoings, make amends to those he has wronged, and make himself accountable to never do anything to harm another person again.

A person who plots and schemes to harm another person, and who shows no remorse for doing so, is not a person of good character, IMHO, and is not someone I would choose as an advisor.

Larry,

I had a POSOM that came into my marriage because he needed a place to live and put his horses. He was able to get the first part. However, when I put my foot down on the second part of the equation, that's when PSUBIKER became the enemy.

POSOM really did a number on me AND my exWW which will affect our children for the rest of their lives. Once he moved onto our property, he would do the chores that I would do while I was at work. When I got home from work, I would just surf the internet. POSOM told exWW that I was surfing for porn while the kids were in the room with me. She believed him - he was such a nice guy and all to help her through some problems. POSOM also listened in on individual phone marriage counseling sessions.

When exWW put him on the stand in a protection order hearing which WOULD have taken the kids away from me for a year if it went through, he testified to the following:

- He overheard the couselor telling exWW that I was taking the divorce hard
- I showed inappropriate affection towards the kids.
- told the court that I called my exWW another word for "Lady of the Night" that starts with a "W" (I did call her that but it was in response to EXWW saying SF was much better with POSOM because he was more endowed)
- kids running around and not listening after visits with me as a sign I was allienating them against him and their mother.

In my case, my lawyer shedded POSOM's credibility when it came out that he was living there while I paid all of the expenses even though I had expressed my concerns in writting. Basically, he had the most to gain by me being off the property because his horses would have been repossessed by his previous landlord if he didn't get them out when he did. I suspect in your case, you had more credibility with the courts based on your background and used that to your advantage to paint the XH in a much worse light than he actually was.

POSOM used bits of pieces of a situation, manipulated the context of them, and used it to turn exWW against me and her family. WHen someone is going through a lot of emotional turmoil, it is real easy to believe and latch on to the person who is understanding and lends the sympathetic ear.

What people get angry about is the fact that you paint the XH has a lunatic when it was you that had the XW move from KY to TX two weeks AFTER a custody order was consented to. You threw a live hand grenade into their coparenting relationship and then had the audacity to blame the XH for the collateral damage!

{{{{{{{{PSUBIKER}}}}}}}}}

Hugs from me too, PSU....Jeez, sorry you are goin thru all this crap.

It's all pretty much in the review mirror - things have been pretty quiet between exWW and I for the last couple of months. But, so much mistrust and resentment has built up between exWW and I over everything that my kids will always be affected by the manner in which my marriage disintegrated.

The more important part of Marriage Builders is it is a learning site as well. I have learned a ton on relationships that will help me in the future. I think the recent backstory about Larry adds to that learning. It is a good lesson learned on how quickly divorce and custody can go nuclear and at the end of the day, both groups ask �what happened?�

Yeah, my DS too...when a M is disinigrated in such a manner, mine was also, its just a lifetime wound for everyone involved...my WH still always says, "my wish for us was always that we could just end up being good friends"

Well if that was his wish all along how did he think lying, cheating, calling me sick and crazy, saying he never loved me and our marriage was a sham, abandoning me and DS, blaming everything (including Affair) on me...etc......was gonna make us good friends? IDK, I guess us and our children are just scarred for a lifetime by all this.

We just need to keep fighting and doin the best we can for our children, esp since only one parent seems to have their best interest at heart.

I never imagined in my wildest dreams that my H would become WH and that I would be his worst enemy....and he would be mine and DS's also.

My mother's OMH did something very similar and has kept up that mantra with my mom for over 30 years. Dad was not the greatest H, I admit. He did not have the tools necessary to know how to be a good H. However he worked 6 days a week to support us. He let my mom take us on vacations he hated because it made her happy. Was he unreasonable in some areas? Yes. Was he a bit emotionally abusive? Possibly. Om comes along on his white horse and throws a grenade into two families lives. OMH continues for 30 plus years to remind my mom what an *ss my father was to her. OMH tried for many years to recreate a "happy" family ideal with my mom and HER kids. (his kids pretty much wouldn't have anything to do with him for many years and one son is still not speaking to him) Problem was he was so abusive and ugly toward us, this "happy" family was never going to happen. So then he would try to keep us from our mother. Nice huh?

Even now with my mom having Alzheimers and he being her primary caregiver he continues to try to be her sole "hero" in her life. It is disgusting. The only good thing is since he still has this obsession with her after all these years he has actually been a pretty decent caregiver for her since her diagnosis (well except for the times he jumps all over her for remembering "their" history wrong)

"I just want us to be friends" really means "I want to be able to destroy my family and feel good about it. If you'll be my friend, then that proves I didn't really hurt you and I didn't do anything wrong."

That's why so many WS, even XWS, are very angry and frustrated if the BS/XBS refuses to be "friends".

This hit the nail on the head so perfectly��being friends� is the WS/xWS�s way of alleviating guilt and avoiding responsibility via a fa�ade of �cordiality� toward the BS/xBS. It�s sort of says (in the wayward�s mind) �Look everyone! My xS & I get along great now�see????� When the BS/xBS won't go along, that is when the wayward usually starts trotting out the "he/she is just bitter!" defense.

My xWW pulled this one too (�I hoped we could be friends or at least friendly��) and got really belligerent and vengeful when she discovered that I/former-family/former-friends wouldn�t go along and had nothing but contempt for her actions & unrepentance.

Many a BS fail to realize the importance of clearly and calmly informing their WS as to the nature of their relationship post D. I think it tends to be an overlooked weapon in the fight against the A.

Mulan and SDCW are pointing out something I've also heard firsthand. I have let Skatt know on several occasions how it's going to work IN REALITY. The WS must not think for a second that you'll be their buddy, their pal, or their hamburger and hotdog griller at the big family BBQ. Granted we never really know what TRULY goes on in the mind of a wayward, but Skatt has admitted that one of the drawbacks to going plan D is knowing we will have an extremely limited relationship that will focus entirely on the welfare of the boys -- and that she will have NOTHING CLOSE to the fantasy divorce scenario that bounced around in her head early in this tussle.

There are MANY important tasks at hand in the fight against an A. Blowing up the fantasy divorce mindset -- which festers in the heads of most WS -- is also a crucial one that should not be overlooked or minimized.

TB

For anyone interested in the topic, please see the MB thread "The Fantasy of Divorce" in the link below:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2275600#Post2275600

Now back to your regularly scheduled affairage discussion.

This bears repeating:

Its sickening how waywards are all sooo much alike in their thinknin, isnt it?

Larry,
I do not know your history and have to admit to speed reading a great deal of what has been said here.
I was one of the unfortunates who came here to try to put some perspective on what turns out to be a minor blip in a very harmonious and happy marriage, only to be lambasted by virtually everyone who read my post because I had met my wife after I had filed for divorce from my ex.
Not only did the supposed help (from MB posters) create more of a problem in my marriage, it nearly finished it and I eventually, after being accused of everything from mental illness to basically being a sinner, gave up on the whole idea of MB. I took a course of traditional none bias, non faith based marital therapy and what was an issue, is no longer one.
I implore you not to get embroiled in any of this nonsense and try to look deeply at what you have and how lucky you can be. We all meet our spouses in different ways, and yes, sometimes when we least expect it or it is not ideal, but a current marriage is the one that counts.
I have not posted here for a very long time but occasionally peak at what is going on and have discovered that it is really the insecure making the less secure feel worse. In my case, and I am sure that this will be edited anyway, it was a total disaster ever bumping into this site.
I know that things can go wrong in any relationship for various reasons, but we cannot choose always who we fall in love with and why. All that matters is that we are as good a person as we can be and work hard to remain that way.
I suffered extremely badly exposing myself to some of the folks here and it created a great deal of crisis in my house. Luckily my wife and I made sense of our lives and got things in perfect condition.
We all make mistakes and we certainly are never far from creating problems if we so wish. Please though, do not think of yourself as a bad person because you fell in love. You didn't cause a problem and you certainly were not the catalyst to the end of a previous relationship.
I know people will accuse me of wayward thinking, as they have you, and to be quite frank I do not care. I also know that I am classed as an affariage and to be quite frank, that does not bother me either. If I am a threat to the paranoid or insecure then so be it, but it is not something after 10 years of being together with my now wife that I tried to create.
I don't take pride in the fact that I was part of a failed marriage 10 years ago, but I am certainly not going to beat myself up for the rest of my days for it and especially not ruin what happiness I have now found in my wife and our MARRIAGE.
Look deep inside yourself and if you are truly and completely satisfied with what you find then the rest is irrelevant. Don't ignore what you read here, just don't let it get you down. Some of it comes from a far worse place than you have ever been.
Larry, just be yourself and look elsewhere for a solution to your issues. Don't allow yourself to be beaten up by people who seem hell bent on condemning your relationship in whatever form it took.
Good luck and keep strong.

Fasten your seatbelts.

you may wish to. I have much to say !!
Recovery is not ALL about guilt.

This thread has evolved beyond its intended purpose, which was to give Larry an opportunity to explain his position. That purpose has been served so we are locking this thread.