Marriage Builders
BACKSTORY--

For several years DH and she have been friends. It's a small town. Her husband and she were good friends of my husband and I. In fact, I even knew DH had a minor crush on her and had teased him about it once upon a time.

I also knew that they emailed once every week or two. No big deal, really. Just chit chat about kids, and work, and the weather. Of course HER husband didn't know. Jealous, she'd told me once.
Now, I know her husband. He is probably (deservedly!) suspicious, but he's not particularly jealous. That's how this happened afterall... Neither of us was jealous. : (



But this last fall I noticed she now seemed to think the emailing was a secret from me, too. She would ask me about things that I *knew* she'd already talked to DH about. And I would already know about this because DH always told me.
It irritated me that she thought my spouse was keeping secrets just like she was, but the bigger issue was that he WAS being honest with me. So whether she was being sneaky or not, *he and I* were OK.

But sometime this winter she started complaining about her husband a lot. Around February or so she and my husband started chatting on the phone every few days, in addition to their regular emails. He quit telling me what all they'd talked about.
By March they were not only emailing and chatting, but texting as well.

On Easter I talked to my husband and asked him to research "Emotional Affairs."
He saw it.
He felt terrible and said that yeah, he was probably skating the line between friendship and affair, and that SHE was probably already over the line. He agreed to quit talking so much as it wasn't healthy for he and I.



Not only did they not cut back, it got worse. They were talking two or three times a day.
Last Sunday, in a conversation with her, I realized he'd also been complaining about me in their conversations. We made a promise to one another 15 years ago that we'd never complain about each other to other people, so that's the betrayal I nailed him with.

With further talking (yelling?) he came clean that yeah, he had crossed that invisible line, too. He told me loved her, but that me and our marriage (and kids) were so much more important, so he'd break it off entirely.
But he loved her, too.
It was like he'd kicked me in the stomach. I literally had the wind knocked out of me. : (

I tried to understand (am trying). He grieved when he broke it off with her and I tried (am trying) to be fair. I do understand, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

CURRENTLY:

So, we're working and we're talking and we're crying and we're talking some more. We're completely committed to each other.
We've explained to our 8 and 10 year old (who had noticed all of these tears of course) that sometimes best friends fight. But friends need to fight sometimes to get things worked out.

DH is courting me and being as completely transparent as he can possibly be. After the first few days, it's starting to get a little less raw. I know where to go from here and have faith we'll get through this.

So now we come to the part I'm really struggling with:

WHAT TO DO ABOUT HER??

Somewhere during all of the tears and talking, it came out that part of what drew him closer to her in the past six months or so was that she'd had an abortion last summer.

At 45, her story is that her husband pushed her to have an abortion. She loves kids and has actually been after DH and I for a number of years to have more, so I can almost believe that might be true. But at the same time, I have obvious trepidation about believing her completely. That is, I believe the abortion part is true. I question whether it was actually her husband's overbearing command that forced her do it, though.
This is devouring her soul. She's convinced she's going to Hell.

Knowing her as I do, she's a pretty needy person and knowing her husband also, I can easily imagine he's just thinking they should "move on." I genuinely believe that he probably DOESN'T listen to her as my husband did.

I'm hoping to heal she and I's relationship (maybe???). But, when DH "broke up" with her, she basically said they were just friends and she just couldn't see what the big deal is.

There's no way I can talk to her if she's still lying to herself... And I'm genuinely worried for her about how the abortion is tearing her apart...

My God what a mess. : (
You shouldn't even consider remaining friends with this woman. An EA is just as damaging as a PA. Many PA's start out as EA's and then progress from there. Your H needs to write a NC letter to this woman and then both of you need to establish NC with her for life. Right now, there is still contact, so technically, the A isn't even over and you and your H have not even begun recovery.

Does her H know about the EA? If not, he needs to be told. Exposure will help protect your M. The more people who know, the more people can keep an eye on both of them and put pressure on them to truly and completely end the A. Have you exposed to anyone?

Right now, you are simply setting yourself up for an A that will almost certainly continue. They will just take it underground. If you don't take some drastic measures now, you setting yourself up for a lot of hurt and betrayal in the future. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. My H had a long term EA with someone that was supposed to be our "friend" and it did eventually start to get physical. I suffered through this for 10 years, sharing my H and his love with the OW, all because I believed we could all get over these lingering feelings they had for one another and be friends. Yeah, right. It doesn't work like that.

Once the line has been crossed, there is no going back. This friendship simply cannot continue.
#1: Ask the moderators to move your thread to "Surviving an Affair." Because (1) if this all came to a head only last Sunday, and you're still in contact with their family, then it's too soon to say you're in recovery; and (2) more of interest to you, the "Surviving an Affair" board gets lots more traffic, hence, you'll get lots more advice. (Which your post reveals that you need.)

#2: Buy the book of the same title ("Surviving an Affair".) My wife & I were lucky that our marriage counselor put us onto it - it helped save our marriage, of that I'm positive. You & your husband should start reading it together, ASAP. If you do NOTHING else, do this!!!!!

#3: Forget about her & her state of mind. She is no friend to your marriage & thus no friend to you. Her abortion is none of your business -- your husband's first & only step should've been to refer her to a professional counselor on that one. Both you & your H need to quit worrying about her soul. (What, you think God needs your help to save her? Give God some credit, whydontcha? From what I read about Him, He's a pretty capable guy who doesn't need your help with her.)

#4: You both need to regard & treat this as seriously as a physical affair. Because the root causes are the same (your husband's poor boundaries), and the treatment is the same. It starts with ending contact with her irrevocably. Physical affairs proceed from emotional affairs. (Mine did. And once I'd have sworn to you that I'd never have an affair...)

#5: Read everything in the yellow box to the right on this site.

P.S. -- I've BEEN where you're husband is -- the bad, and the ugly. Ask me.
I tried to break it off back when it was still "only" an emotional affair.
You're better off than my wife & I were, b/c I kept it secret from her, so I had no accountability. At least your husband knows that you know, so that's something in your favor. But if you don't take measures to prevent contact with this family asap, then you'll remain in a very dangerous situation for your marriage.
Please listen to what I've told you. Ask me.
Moved at thread starter's request.
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I believed we could all get over these lingering feelings they had for one another and be friends. Yeah, right. It doesn't work like that.
I was afraid of that... frown

Glove:
#1. Done.
#2. I'm at Amazon right now.
#3. I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say I was worried about her soul. I said the guilt of it is tearing her apart and I'm worried about *her*.
#4. Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. (and we have been treating it just as PA)
#5. Already did. I'd read this site for two days before realizing there was a bulletin board!
Glad to hear, PieceMaker.

When Amazon comes through, you & your hubby can get reading.
There's lots of good stuff in that book. The first part is about how affairs happen, the second part is full of stuff you can do to assess & protect your marriage & learn to meet each other's emotional needs to minimize the chances of him (or for that matter, you) venturing out onto this slippery slope again.

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Does her H know about the EA? If not, he needs to be told. Exposure will help protect your M. The more people who know, the more people can keep an eye on both of them and put pressure on them to truly and completely end the A. Have you exposed to anyone?
I've been chewing on this for the last hour or two (and had my husband read the two responses).
No, as far as I know, her husband does not know about the EA. We've kind of had the idea that that was her secret to tell...

And no, we haven't "exposed" to anyone. Whom would we expose to and why?
I'm not sure I would trust just anyone with this...

PS: Like I said, DH did break it off with her. I read his letter before he sent it.
I don't have time to find the link on the site that discusses exposure. Could someone else find it and post it?

Basically, exposure is a tool for the BS for ending an A, since A's thrive in an environment of secrecy and quite often die a swift death when brought out into the open.

As far as telling the OW's H. I advocate that because 1) He has a right to know that his wife has been cheating on him. You have information about his life that he doesn't have. She certainly should tell him herself, but that probably won't happen. 2) If her H knows, then that is one more person who will be aware of the situation and be able to make sure that NC stays in place.

Was the letter that your WH sent to the OW a NC letter? There are templates on the site for composing a NC letter. They are very straightforward and unemotional. NC means that both of you agree to have nothing at all do with this "friend" ever again.

Since your WH seems interested in the site and the MB principles, it would probably be best for him to start his own thread. The advice he will receive as a WS is very different from the advice you will receive as a BS.
I went back into my thread and I will post what others posted to me.

Originally Posted by turtlehead
Here is some info on exposure; just change the gender to suit your own situation. I will say that with the affair this entrenched and the plans already in place for him to move in with OW he may just go ahead and move out. So be prepared for that.

--Exposure targets
Anyone with influence over your WS or the marriage. WS' parents, siblings, best friend, children if they're over 4. OP's siblings, parents, spouse. Your priest or similar if you're religious. Their employer if they work together. Work exposure should be done *in writing* to the head of HR, the CEO, and WS' boss. All of them should know the others were copied; this makes it harder for them to toss the letter into the trash and forget about it.

--Exposure message
Use a formal letter for work exposure. Everything else is short and sweet: "OP and WS are having an affair. I love WS and I am committed to doing whatever it takes to repair our marriage and make it better than ever. I'd appreciate any advice you might have." The exposure message is not vengeful; it is a message of love.

--No warning
Do NOT threaten to expose, do not tell her you're going to expose. Just do it. If she has advance warning, she will tell her friends and family "We are having trouble in our marriage. H is controlling and angry. He won't talk to me, he won't listen to me. He is possessive and jealous, and he accuses me of insane things. Sometimes I'm scared for my physical well-being, he's changed that much. Thank goodness I have friends to talk to, otherwise I don't think I could bear the abuse. OM has been especially helpful in offering insights into how a man would see things. I just hope we can make it but I'm not sure we can." How do you think your exposure is going to sound after an oscar winning performance like that?

--Exposure after-effects
Your WS is going to be furious. You will hear predictable things like "I can never trust you again. I was going to dump OP and reconcile but you've blown any chance of that. I hate you. I'm filing for D." Don't EVEN pay attention to this stuff. Your WS is just angry because the super-fun super-secret affair is suddenly looking downright tawdry and the fun is turning into a nightmare. Just ignore most of it. If your WS tries to talk about divorce, say "I don't do divorce, I do marriage." Then change the subject. If your WS tries to pick a fight, tell them you'd very much like to discuss things when you can both be calm and rational, and leave the room if you have to. If she says things like "How could you do this?!" tell her you'll do whatever it takes to save your marriage.

I am looking for more on others threads.
here's a newsletter by DrH

DrH on exposure
Scotland, thank you. You're helping more than PM right now!
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
I've been chewing on this for the last hour or two (and had my husband read the two responses).
No, as far as I know, her husband does not know about the EA. We've kind of had the idea that that was her secret to tell...

And no, we haven't "exposed" to anyone. Whom would we expose to and why?
I'm not sure I would trust just anyone with this...

PM, sorry you are here. The OW's H needs to know about the affair so he can protect himself from your H and his wife. This is information about his life that has been wrongfully withheld from him. He needs to fully understand WHY you can never see this couple again. His knowing will give him the same chance to recover his marriage as you. He can help keep the affairees accountable by watching from his end.

Your children need to be told of the affair, too. They should not be given false explanations about the tension in their home or told lies about why you cannot socialize with this couple. The OW is their mortal enemy and they have a right to know this.

Dr Harley does recommend exposure of the affair so that there will be more people to hold the affairees accountable.

The post Scotland posted is more related to an ongoing affair, that is not the case here.
sorry ML I will remove it. I didn't have a chance to read through it yet. My BAD. twoxfour

That's what I get for watching a movie AND doing this. I will watch the movie instead HEHEHEHE
Originally Posted by Scotland
sorry ML I will remove it. I didn't have a chance to read through it yet. My BAD. twoxfour

Thats ok!! You had no way of knowing. Good effort on your part, buddy! smile
Piecemakers,

OW's BH most likely has been dealing with tension, problems in his M ~ don't you think this poor man has a right to know the full extent of what was going on so that he has an opportunity to address the M and A just as you say you and your H have been?

How would you feel if you were in OW H's position and everyone else knew but you didn't?

ALSO ~ I don't think your H should necessarily be reading these posts because he may try to sway you from telling OW's H. (from my history of reading here 3 yrs, that is what he will most likely do)

In case it hasn't been emphasized enough, NC means NC ~ no seeing OW at soccer games, parties, the mall, etc and you two need to have a plan in place in case you do run into her anywhere. The plan should be that your H does not say ONE word to her, but leaves the place where she is and calls you ASAP. Waywards always try to have wiggle room when it comes to NC so please don't let your H tell you that it is OK if you two run into her or see her in passing. Even the two of them glancing at each other will trigger the addictive thoughts and behavior and set you guys back.

Have you two changed your phone numbers and emails? That is a MUST.

ETA: are either of you FB friends with her or her H?
Thoughts on how to talk to OW's H? (Keeping in mind, this is a friend of mine!)
OW said in the break up email that she's afraid of what he'll do if he finds out. I honestly don't know if that means he *genuinely* would do anything violent or if she's just afraid he would.
For the sake of argument, let's assume he *would* do something... How should we handle this?

Ironically, he's supposed to be at our house tomorrow to help brand our calves. And we're 90 miles from their house. Talking to him tomorrow would give him a chance to cool off before he got home.
Or, build steam.

However, there's also the problem of having 20-30 other people around... frown

PS: Yes, we were both friends of both of them on FB. DH has taken OW off his list (I have his passwords, so I know that's true). I haven't taken OW off mine yet and neither of us have removed OW's H.
PM,

1) OP's LIE about their spouses. Men say they have to do all housework/child care/ paid employment. Women tend to say their spouses are abusive.

2) who cares what he does. Its not your problem. If she really worried about her H, she wouldn't have taken up with a married man.
YOUR relationship with your H is important. her's is her own mess to deal with.
Originally Posted by lildoggie
PM,

1) OP's LIE about their spouses. Men say they have to do all housework/child care/ paid employment. Women tend to say their spouses are abusive.
I assure you, I have thought of this. In fact, I lean strongly this direction. My DH, however, believes it to be true. Of course, he can probably be expected to... frown

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2) who cares what he does. Its not your problem. If she really worried about her H, she wouldn't have taken up with a married man.
YOUR relationship with your H is important. her's is her own mess to deal with.
To be fair, I highly doubt she intended to "take up with a married man" anymore than my DH intended to "take up with" a married woman.
I believe him when he says he honestly didn't mean for this to happen. I also believe her that she doesn't see what the big deal is. (And yes, I think she's lying to herself)

Nor can I escape the fact that if she should be hurt, it would be our fault for throwing the gas on the fire. I'm not saying her husband shouldn't know, I'm just asking if there's a safer way to go about telling him.
No. EXPOSE NOW!


There's no safe way. No "quiet" way.


You are protecting her from the consequences of her heinous and adulterous deed. I thought you WANTED to save your marriage. If you keep quiet you are only helping her and destroying your marriage!

She knew what she was doing and so did your husband. And you are doing nothing to stop it. Expose to her husband and you will have an ally in all of this! To be sure it never happens again!

Make sure NC occurs. You and your H should never see this friend again. EVER.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Ironically, he's supposed to be at our house tomorrow to help brand our calves. And we're 90 miles from their house. Talking to him tomorrow would give him a chance to cool off before he got home.
Or, build steam.

PM, my suggestion would be to NOT let that happen. I would call him in the morning and tell him about the affair. The call should come from you, and not your husband. It is not fair to him to have him come all the way out to your house being unaware that your H is having an affair with his wife. He would not likely want to come there if he knew and should RIGHTLY resent your allowing that to happen.

The right thing to do would be to call him tonight or in the morning so he can cancel this trip;
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Nor can I escape the fact that if she should be hurt, it would be our fault for throwing the gas on the fire. I'm not saying her husband shouldn't know, I'm just asking if there's a safer way to go about telling him.

There is nothing unsafe about telling him. There is something very UNSAFE in not telling him. He has to know so he can protect himself from your husband and his wife. To not tell him is cruel and manipulative. To allow him to come out tomorrow and be around your H, the enemy of his marriage, while he is ignorant of what has been done to him, is very cruel. And I assure you he will resent this when he finds out.

Just ask yourself if you would tell him if his bookkeeper was embezzling his money? You wouldn't give it a second thought, yet this adulterous affair is much more destructive than embezzlement.
sounds like your buying into that big old lie about my spouse is a psycho killer....they are both telling you this to keep the A a secret and protect their awful behavior....her husband is not the psycho she is making him out to be....use your logic on this one and go with the truth and do the right thing here.

I can't imagine you helping now to cover up your H's A with this so called "friend of yours"....and then sitting there with them at your home....her H branding animals at your home thinking everything is just peachy fine....one day he will find out and imagine what he will think of YOU for covering up such a thing...let him have the chance like you have to stop his wife from ruining his marriage and family.

Please don't listen to your H or his A partner....do what Melody said...get on the phone right away and tell her H BEFORE he gets to your home....you know deep down inside it is the right thing to do....be strong....save your marriage and let him save his.
You're right. It was the right thing to do.

The more I thought about it, the more I knew I couldn't look him in the eye today without his knowing what was going on.
However, I emailed his wife and said if she didn't tell him last night, I would tell him this morning.
She called. Told me she'd told him. Also told me she really didn't know what the big deal was.
I believe her, unfortunately. I think she has genuinely convinced herself that they weren't doing anything wrong.
That's the thing about an emotional affair, afterall--No sex, no affair.

I told her you don't keep secrets from your spouse. Or ask another to keep secrets from his. She said she just thought it was "private stuff."

But there's no way I'm going through the effort to get her to see that she's lying to herself. Especially since my husband DOES get it and is already doing the work with me.

Originally Posted by PieceMakers
...I emailed his wife and said if she didn't tell him last night, I would tell him this morning.
She called. Told me she'd told him. ...
You're gonna take her word on that, eh?

Originally Posted by PieceMakers
...my husband DOES get it and is already doing the work with me.
I hope so. Good luck.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
She called. Told me she'd told him. Also told me she really didn't know what the big deal was.

She is lying. You need to call him YOURSELF. THIS MORNING. This is why it is SOO important that the news come from someone other than the one who has the most to hide. Asking an adulterer to bust herself is an unrealistic expectation and rarely gets the job done. It usually results in just the opposite because the forewarning gives the adulterer a chance to spin the story about the "wacked out jealous spouse who believes that her H is having affairs with every woman." Then when you do call, the BH doesn't believe you because your credibilty has been destroyed.

If she did tell him anything, I assure you it was a highly spun story and part of the spin was about your "jealous imagination."
PM- Please re read what YOU wrote.

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I have obvious trepidation about believing her completely

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OW said in the break up email that she's afraid of what he'll do if he finds out. I honestly don't know if that means he *genuinely* would do anything violent or if she's just afraid he would

READ THOSE WORDS.

Now you have this
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She called. Told me she'd told him.
Why do you believe her now?

Do you WANT to do this the MB way, because if you DON'T then I will move to another thread where someone else WILL listen to the advice given.

Also, if you have been painted as a jealous wackjob to the BH, then he will feel sorry for your H and his GF and instead of preventing their affair, will accommodate it.
I know the advice you're getting is scary and feels counter-intuitive. But please, listen to what they're telling you. When I first got here nearly two years ago, Melody talked to me too about exposure. Looking back, I wish I had done it the way I had been told and in the timeframe that was recommended. I did do it eventually, but it probably would have gone much smoother if I had just listened.

If you really consider yourself his friend, then you'll tell him what you know yourself.
Originally Posted by GloveOil
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
...I emailed his wife and said if she didn't tell him last night, I would tell him this morning.
She called. Told me she'd told him. ...
You're gonna take her word on that, eh?

Originally Posted by PieceMakers
...my husband DOES get it and is already doing the work with me.
I hope so. Good luck.
PM, if your husband reads the story you just laid out, and he really "gets" it, then he'll make sure the job's done right, by calling the man himself. Because you just asked someone who's been worming her way into your husband's heart, to shift gears and suddenly act in the best interests of YOUR marriage, and for some reason that none of the rest of us can figure out, you're willing to accept HER word that she has acted in your interest, even though you yourself can see that she doesn't "get" it.

Early-on in my EA, before it had gone physical, my OW told me one day that her husband was wondering why she'd been spending so much time on the computer lately. She told him that she'd been in touch with her ex-fiance (which was true in a way, since she'd had a long-distance affair with that ex-fiance before she got into her affair with me). But the effect of that lil' half-truth/LIE of hers was to throw him off the trail of her then-developing affair with me. (For awhile, anyway.)

My point in relating this story is that people in a wayward mindset LIE and DISTORT in order to cover their tracks and throw their spouses off the trail of an emotional affair. My OW did it. I did it. If you had to bet your bottom dollar, do YOU really think this lady is giving her husband the straight story? C'mon, PM, you know better.
I understand that you are extremely concerned about ruining your friendship with them. The problem is, IT'S ALREADY RUINED!!!!

It was ruined the moment your WH and this OW lied and kept secrets from you.

They are cheaters and they are liars and THEY ruined this friendship. Anything you do from here on out won't matter, people will be hurt and the friendship is over. Not because of you, but because of what THEY did!
Originally Posted by SidneyT
I understand that you are extremely concerned about ruining your friendship with them. The problem is, IT'S ALREADY RUINED!!!!

Yes, the friendship is over. There should be no coming back from this.
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She called. Told me she'd told him. Also told me she really didn't know what the big deal was.
I believe her, unfortunately. I think she has genuinely convinced herself that they weren't doing anything wrong.
That's the thing about an emotional affair, afterall--No sex, no affair.
Well, her own words tell you what her version was to her BH ~ something along the lines that you are freaking out over nothing and it was "no big deal".

And please do not fall for her manipulation. Her attitude that she really didn't do anything wrong is a very typical OW manipulation. ALSO just FYI re your first post ~ it is also very very typical for these OW to have problems/drama that they use to get attention/sympathy. My H's OW had many health issues/supposedly an abusive fiance...I was shocked when I came here and saw that was a very common theme. My H was too. Do not feel sorry for her, do not concern yourselves in her problems anymore, period. Once your H has answered all your questions about the A, do not even talk about her anymore.

Furthermore, it is vital that the two of you "block" her & her H on FB and you may even need to defriend any mutual friends you have or there will be a possiblity of seeing pictures of her or news about her. You need to erase her from your lives or your H will not be able to get over his infatuation with her. I know it sounds over the top but please trust me.
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She called. Told me she'd told him.

Oh, honey - you don't really believe that she told her BH ANYTHING, do you??

She lied to you to get you off her back, and it worked. I will bet all of your calves that she told him nothing at all and is counting on your being too squeamish and embarrassed to say anything to her BH yourself.

Please listen to what the others here are telling you. This OW is lying. All cheaters lie. You and your WH can never, ever have any contact with her again in any way, shape or form - not if you want to save your marriage.

There is no way around any of this. You have to plow right through it. YOU must tell her BH yourself, because his cheating wife isn't about to blow the whistle on herself. And you and your WH must 100% break all contact with both of them.

Sorry, but there's no other way if you want your marriage.
I bet it went something like this:

"that crazy PM is so jealous that she doesn't want me to have any contact with them again! She is so insanely jealous of my friendship with Mr PM. Nor does she want you to come over anymore. We have been worried about her mental state for a long time and this just proves it! Poor Mr. PM!! How can he put up with that crazy lunatic??"
Well DH called and talked to him. Confessed. Apologized. I stood next to him and held his hand.
OW's H said she'd already talked to him, but he'd talk to her again. (Probably told him a partial story as suggested here).

He'd been suspicious far longer than I. In fact, that was a common complaint of hers (how little he trusted her) so he didn't seem particularly shocked...
Out of curiosity, her H didn't seem to think it was a very big deal. Or at least, he didn't express that when he and DH were talking.
Thoughts on why?
Because if there's no sex, there's no affair?
Because she'd already managed to salvage it before DH called him? (I find this one hard to believe as her H was suspicious long ago)
Doesn't matter. It really doesn't. Has your WH committed to writing a NC letter to OW?

Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Out of curiosity, her H didn't seem to think it was a very big deal. Or at least, he didn't express that when he and DH were talking.
Thoughts on why?
Because if there's no sex, there's no affair?
Because she'd already managed to salvage it before DH called him? (I find this one hard to believe as her H was suspicious long ago)
Scotland's right, it doesn't matter. That's between OW & her husband and is none of your & your H's business.

Their involvement in your life is a threat to your marriage & thus to your children's home, and must end. Their marriage is not your husband's concern. It is not your concern. It is not productive for either of you to waste time thinking about them. You have too much crucial work to do on your own relationship. That must be your focus.

Congratulations on the exposure.
Now your & your H's order of the day is :
--(1) no contact;
--(2) extraordinary precautions to maintain (1)
--(3) complete honesty about the affair on his part;
--(4) re-learning & meeting one another's emotional needs, within your marriage.
Originally Posted by Scotland
Has your WH committed to writing a NC letter to OW?
Yeah, he did that two weeks ago.
Like I said in my first post, he broke it off. It was a straight forward no-contact letter.
I proofed it before he clicked Send.

And I'm not overly interested in what's going on in their marriage. I just meant from our standpoint that it's odd... He told DH last night that he doesn't hold it against him.
"Extraordinary measures":

OK--
So what is the next step if he's unwilling to change his email? Phone records are easy to check to see who's calling, but email can be dumped before I realize it's even there...

This is the only email address he's had and he's had it for over 12 years.
And for that matter, how do you know that if someone changes their address that they aren't still maintaining the old one? (Yes, I have passwords, but there's no way to keep up with late night/early morning stuff...)
You demand he change his email. This HAS to be a condition. You get into his email and change the password if you have to.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
"Extraordinary measures":

OK--
So what is the next step if he's unwilling to change his email? Phone records are easy to check to see who's calling, but email can be dumped before I realize it's even there...

This is the only email address he's had and he's had it for over 12 years.
And for that matter, how do you know that if someone changes their address that they aren't still maintaining the old one? (Yes, I have passwords, but there's no way to keep up with late night/early morning stuff...)

I have found keyloggers to be invaluable.

Why is he unwilling to change his email? People do it all the time.
Keyloggers?
And he doesn't want to change it, in part, because his ID is named after his beloved basset hound who died. But mostly because it's the one and only account he's had for over 12 years.

I genuinely don't think it's because he's wanting to maintain a possible connection. But he won't consider the fact that a surprise email, three months from now, would be the issue. No, she hasn't tried to contact since the "break up", but it's only been two weeks.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Keyloggers?

www.spectorsoft.com

This is an inexpensive program that you can install on your H's computer in less than five minutes. It will record everywhere he goes, every password, every email, every keystroke. And it sends reports to your email.

I can't vouch for the email one - I use(d) SpectorPro, not eBlaster. But other posters here have, and I wish I'd gotten that one.

Of course, you understand that your WH must not be made aware of this program.
Changing his email addy should be a condition for recovery. Speaking of conditions, what are YOURS?
In regards to what in particular?
in regards to recovery. WHat conditions must he meet for you to consider recovery?
Gotcha.
1. No contact.
2. Total honesty, even when it's hard for me to hear. (And that total honesty is why he called OW's H)
3. Do some reflection. What void was being filled? So far all I'm getting is "I don't know."

We've had some pretty deep heart-to-hearts about other issues we've had, but nothing specifically related to the affair. (Unless you want to go with the simple, "She and I didn't have any stressors in our relationship")


That's pretty much it. So far, he's being pretty cooperative and transparent which is why I wasn't sure what to do when he said No on the email thing.
He hasn't truly dug in his heels to anything before this...
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Gotcha.
1. No contact.
2. Total honesty, even when it's hard for me to hear. (And that total honesty is why he called OW's H)
3. Do some reflection. What void was being filled? So far all I'm getting is "I don't know."

We've had some pretty deep heart-to-hearts about other issues we've had, but nothing specifically related to the affair. (Unless you want to go with the simple, "She and I didn't have any stressors in our relationship")


That's pretty much it. So far, he's being pretty cooperative and transparent which is why I wasn't sure what to do when he said No on the email thing.
He hasn't truly dug in his heels to anything before this...

Okeedokee. I think you can meet him halfway on this one. How about he keeps his account, but you have the password and the ability to check it at will?

I'm good with your list, but I think you'll add to it as you read more here. Consider going over the Emotional Needs Questionnaire with him, though - not just 'reflection.' Reflection is all well and good, but it is a passive, solitary activity. The EN's Questionnaire is active and involves both of you.
Okay. 3 things and one of them, he gets to tell you how BAD you were.(Number 3). Is that really it? Have you thought of other things? WHat about counseling with the coaching center on MB? What about reading SAA? What about posting on here? There is so much more. You mission today is to set the bar HIGH. If you do NOT, then he will be sure to meet your LOW bar. You may even wind up in a False Recovery, which is said to be WORSE then the first DDay.

My list of requirements for my WH just to communicate with me again are these.

Originally Posted by Scotty's Plan B letter
1. You must WANT to work on our marriage
2. You must end the affair with POSOW
3. You will write a No Contact letter to POSOW and have it okayed by me and then I will send it.
4. You will leave Workplace (unless she has left first)
5. You will agree to follow a marriage counseling plan of my choosing.
6. You will take a sexually transmitted disease test and I will see the results.

That is just to get out of plan B. My recovery list is HUGE. I used some of SMB's requirements, but I made them my own.

BTW, the marriage counseling I mentioned is MB of course, but WH doesn't know MB exists.

I would suggest you both read "His Needs Her Needs". I got the audio version for my H to listen to in the car on the way to/from work. It will help you two understand the dynamics of M, meeting ENs and also has examples of how As start when allowing others to meet your ENs.

Your H should be able to see that he let another woman meet his ENs and realize that he needs to have Extraordinary Precautions in place to prevent this from happening again. If there is any issue with this step at all, call Steve Harley up for coaching. We have coached with him and he is GREAT. The types of things that would be on the EP list are things like, a) no discussing personal issues with women, b) no personal emailing or phone calls with women, c) no recreational activities with another woman w/o you there, etc.

Did he email regularly with OW? If so, I am sorry, I don't think that's a corner you can cut. Emails can too easily be erased. Also I think it will keep him triggered knowing he could get an email from her at any time.
PM, now would be the time to start creating a romantic relationship with your husband. There will be a void for him and if you both work on filling it with a great marriage, the chances of an affair relapse will be greatly diminished. Here is where I would start to get the biggest bang for your buck:

The Importance of 15 hours of Undivided Attention
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Okeedokee. I think you can meet him halfway on this one. How about he keeps his account, but you have the password and the ability to check it at will?

I already do.
In fact, that's how I realized the extent of this thing... frown

And oh the irony... I haven't been online this weekend to do more than check my business email (and this thread) since Friday night. Neither has DH.
She emailed "us" on Saturday morning. Though interestingly, she only sent "our" email to his address. MrRollieEyes
He didn't reply to it, only forwarded it to me this morning. In fact, he says he forwarded it before he even read it. I think that's probably true.

She basically reiterates her appreciation to DH for being a shoulder for her abortion, and other, issue(s) (though she has yet to say it to me since she seems to think he's STILL keeping secrets from me) and that she was glad to support him when he quit smoking.
(That was one of his "My wife doesn't understand me like you do" things. That I didn't support his efforts to quit smoking. Which, during recent communication, he's pointed out was BS because I've been his number one fan. He doesn't know why he would say/think that...)
She also says how much she appreciates my not talking to her H (of course, this was BEFORE DH called him)

Most importantly, she says she hopes that we won't "punish" their daughter, who's graduating this Sunday, by not coming to her reception and the graduation.
Now, granted, we have been friends of the family since she was in 6th grade, but at the same time, we all know full well that she's not going to be particularly upset if some family friends don't make it to her party. We'll send a card with a check and call it good.



ANYWAY--
The first thing we're going to do, while his resolve is strong, is block her addresses from his email!

So far as the recommendations for further communication, I assumed that was a given, I guess. Those were my requirements for CONSIDERING recovery, afterall...
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
PM, now would be the time to start creating a romantic relationship with your husband. There will be a void for him and if you both work on filling it with a great marriage, the chances of an affair relapse will be greatly diminished. Here is where I would start to get the biggest bang for your buck:

The Importance of 15 hours of Undivided Attention

Actually, we already do this. I'll admit, not 15 hours, but usually around 10. Fifteen is a good number to shoot for.

In fact, I remember when we went to a Marriage Encounter weekend last fall (before this all erupted), he was truly worried that I thought something was wrong.
No, Love, I just wanted a weekend that was just for the two of us, learning how to love each other better. It was a great weekend, btw.
And beyond just TIME for us, we spend an hour a week, just in writing thoughts/worries/joys to each other and then the discussion of them.

When he gave me the schtick of "I haven't been happy for a long time..." it was easy to shoot down with, "What are you talking about?! Go re-read your Love Journal!"

"Oh yeah. I guess you're right. I don't know why I said that..."

I also think the fact that we were already pretty healthy is why he's being so cooperative and honest about this, too. And, for that matter, why I can be patient and fair. Our Servers are far more visible than our Takers. We're both working very hard to be honest without being hurtful.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Actually, we already do this. I'll admit, not 15 hours, but usually around 10. Fifteen is a good number to shoot for.

Actually, from this point on and for the rest of your life, fifteen hours a week should be the bare minimum amount of time you spend giving your spouse your undivided attention.

Don't short-change your marriage by not spending enough time together to keep this ball rolling.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
She emailed "us" on Saturday morning. Though interestingly, she only sent "our" email to his address.
.........................
ANYWAY--
The first thing we're going to do, while his resolve is strong, is block her addresses from his email!
Not changing his email address is a mistake.

The way A's work is your H and OW got a zing off each contact with each other ~ it has been compared to a hit off the crack pipe each time they have contact, even an email or seeing each other in passing. (unfortunately this is probably why your H doesn't want to change his email)

Receiving her email is a setback ~ your H's w/d clock gets set back to Day 1. And now you are talking and focusing on her again.

This is why you were told pretty early on you needed to change phone numbers and emails. *sigh*

OW is very brazen and manipulative...nice move on trying to guilt you guys into going to her D's party. I doubt this is the last time you will hear from her and I doubt she will give up easily.
ps ~ what did your H's NC letter say? Can you post it?
Not only is UA time of 15+ hours a MUST, it has to be doing activities that meet the 4 ENs of Sexual fulfillment, conversation, recreational companionship and affection. Dr Harley has stated that he won't even consider counseling anyone unless they COMMIT to at least 15 hours of scheduled UA every week.

Have you considered calling the coaching center to get some guidance for your recovery?
Originally Posted by Scotland
Not only is UA time of 15+ hours a MUST, it has to be doing activities that meet the 4 ENs of Sexual fulfillment, conversation, recreational companionship and affection. Dr Harley has stated that he won't even consider counseling anyone unless they COMMIT to at least 15 hours of scheduled UA every week.
Well I guess I would assume it can't be spent paying bills. wink
Like I said, we've been carving out US time from the week for quite some time... That's really nothing new.
And we're easily exceeding 15 hours since all of this happened. But it's definitely not a trend yet, as it's still so fresh. KWIM?
We'll just have to decide that it's going to be a habit we have to keep.

Quote
Have you considered calling the coaching center to get some guidance for your recovery?
Honestly, no. So far we're making positive, forward progress. We're both completely committed to us and that hasn't wavered.
Question: Should I respond to this email of hers and tell her to go away and leave us alone? A CC to her husband's address??
I keep thinking she'd be appalled if she realized that she's coming across as a stalker...
Or, should we just ignore her entirely?

She has already been blocked from DH's address. And, trying it with my own email, there's nothing to show that she's blocked on her end. She can send a message to him and won't know that it just disappears into oblivion. He also doesn't know that anything was ever sent.
Originally Posted by PieceMakers
Question: Should I respond to this email of hers and tell her to go away and leave us alone? A CC to her husband's address??
I keep thinking she'd be appalled if she realized that she's coming across as a stalker...
Or, should we just ignore her entirely?

She has already been blocked from DH's address. And, trying it with my own email, there's nothing to show that she's blocked on her end. She can send a message to him and won't know that it just disappears into oblivion. He also doesn't know that anything was ever sent.

Heck, yeah. Let her know that any time she tries to contact your H she'll also be getting an audience with his wife. And her husband. Definitely cc it to him. She can always set up another email account, so be ready to attack when that happens.

That's the beauty: She'll never know she's been blocked. (Unless of course DH tells her. In which case, we'll have much bigger problems...)
Sent and BCC to her H.
Boy, I hope that was the right thing to do...

MY H was mad again (about the BCC) because he thinks I'm "sticking my nose into their marriage"
I pointed out that I'm sick to death of secrets.
Your way is more sneaking around, my way is open and honest with the four people who are involved in this mess.
Which way do you really think we should go??

He's torn. He is really trying, but that WS fog must be pretty powerful stuff, too. frown

I told him her H might never even see it anyway. She has a private email, but his is their joint account.
Quote
MY H was mad again (about the BCC) because he thinks I'm "sticking my nose into their marriage"

You know, some of the stuff WS say just makes your jaw hit the floor . . . he clearly didn't think that one through, did he?

Yeah, I pointed that one out, too...
Now you're worried about interfering in their marriage?? crazy
UPDATE:

Well, so far, so good...

I've been checking but he doesn't seem to have gotten any emails from her (nor sent) and the phone is still vacant. FaceBook is long gone.
Of course, she waited nearly two weeks before sending the guilt-inducing, "my daughter deserves recognition, don't punish HER" email, so we'll see... At the same time, she might have emailed 20 times since that last one, but the filter is doing its job. wink
On the bright side, DH now seems to think it was a good thing that I BCC my response to OW's H.

It's truly weird.
He'll start reciting stuff straight out of the Cheater's Script, I (usually!) gently ask him to question his logic in that statement and either immediately, or after an hour or three of think-time, he'll tell me that he KNOWS it's BS.
He doesn't know why he would say such a thing... It's weird. I can see him IN the fog. I can see him OUT of the fog.

We've done the Emotional Needs inventory and, not surprisingly, we both seem to be meeting each other's emotional needs pretty well.

At the same time, though, it means we need to dig further into why this happened. I have my theories, but am patiently waiting for him to want to discuss it again and see what he thinks.

Yesterday he sent me a text "I'm sorry. I love you and wish I could ease your mind." I responded "Don't wish--work. Learn. I love you too."
He replied that that wasn't really the response he was hoping for... a little more terse than he'd expected.
I told him that he seems to want "easy," and that he doesn't want to change his definition of what is and isn't appropriate contact with other women. He just wants to be able to say "sorry" and have the tough stuff done.

He knows I've been reading this site extensively, and have ordered "Surviving an Affair" (I hope it shows up soon!!), so I was thrilled when he asked me to send him some links so that he can read, too. loveheart

We also discussed the familiarity of the Emotional Needs questionnaire when we filled it out. Not to mention the concept of the Love Bank.
Both of us are nearly positive that we did His Needs/Her Needs, and the accompanying workbook, as our pre-marriage counseling curriculum (in early '97).
This is a good thing because that means we're both coming from the direction that this is the right counsel for us. (Not sure if anyone has looked lately, but there's a LOT of surviving-affair/building marriage information out there and some of it seems positively disastrous.)
Piecemakers, don't forgive too easily, don't set the bar for R too low and don't let your guard down. I would make a few counseling sessions with the Harleys a condition of R. I failed to do that three years ago and am having to do it now when he thinks that it should all be behind us.

I also found that Love Busters was the best of all the books that we read. Like you, DH and I were doing a pretty good job of meeting each other's ENs but dishonesty and independent behavior has left a permanent hole in my love bank that drains very rapidly regardless of how many deposits are made.

Don't give OW the benefit of any doubt. She no doubt will try to approach your WH in some way to get some closure or to lobby for future contact on the sly. I pray that all goes well for you and that R of your M is successful.

God's Blessings,

Say
Thanks for the advice, Say. More importantly, thanks for the prayer.
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