I think this falls under the category of "Just Compensation," but maybe I'm wrong. Can I get some advice or interpretations on what follows?

BH and I have some pretty big life decisions coming up, mostly about career(s). He is our sole breadwinner, I am a housewife and stay-home mom. Caring for the kids is HUGE, so being able to provide a sound home and financial support for them are key. The opportunity has come up for him to either 1) change locations/employers w/in his current profession, or 2) exit the profession altogether.

Current: He is currently a very successful professional. He is a lock (as much as one can be, anyway) for advancement, and provides a very comfortable living for us. He does, however, work extremely hard - long hours, mentally and physically draining work - and under a fair degree of stress. Current job satisfaction is minimal.

Option #1: change employers/locations: The risk increases (as his guarantee of advancement is much harder to obtain, though still possible), the time and stress may increase, the monetary gain is still very good. Satisfaction would likely increase somewhat.

Option #2: leave the profession entirely: He/we could spend some time overseas for more academic pursuits for him. After that, we would return and he would enter a PhD or MD program.

Option #3: Just Compensation? I still have the option to return to medical school. This option expires in the next few days. If I were to return to school, I would finish in 3 years and begin earning money during residency after that. That would free BH from being the sole breadwinner, and he could then pursue either a Ph.D., MD, or anything else he was interested in.

Neither of us are enthusiastic about #3. My first year in medical school was a disaster as far as family life went, and I capped it off with my A. And while we certainly feel I have learned from this, that I am in a much better position now to handle both school and family, the same concerns we had even pre-A are still there: someone else raising our kids, the effect of having a stay-home mom who all of a sudden leaves them for 8-10h/day with some other caregiver, the increased demands on our time and energy. I don't want to return to medicine, either - but this can't be about what I want.

SO. Finally. The idea in question. I think this qualifies as Just Compensation. I return to medical school for the benefit of my BH, giving him the chance to pursue something more satisfying and challenging. Something to give him some drive and fulfillment in life.

I'm having a hard time making a decision on this, as is BH, and I thought some additional perspectives would help me make sure I'm considering all possibilities.

If you made it this far, thank you. Thoughts?

I agree this is a matter of Just Compensation. JC means affair proofing your marriage, so going to med school WOULD NOT BE JC, but just the opposite. You justly compensate your spouse by affair proofing your marriage. Going to med school would be to invite the SAME CONDITIONS that led to your affair:


That should be off the table if you value your marriage. A medical career is something that would have to come before your marriage and you already KNOW it was a disaster.

My philosophy of life is this: if you get your [censored] run over by playing chicken, then stop playing chicken!


I would choose this only if you don't have to spend time apart. In all your decisions, MrsVanilla, your marriage should be put FIRST. That means consideration of overnight travel [bad for marriages to spend the night apart!] and time together. Your marriage will bever be successful or happy if you are not together every day and spending 15+ hours per week of UA time.

So, in all things, I would ask FIRST, how does this effect our marriage? If you put the career first, your marriage will suffer, and if your marriage suffers, your quality of life suffers.

In other words, the career should support the marriage, not the other way around.

Hi Mel -

Thanks for the advice and clarification. I think I am confused about Just Compensation. I thought it was what a FWS offered up to the BS as something - ANYthing - that would work towards rebuilding the M/BS.

The problem is, though, that where we currently are doesn't seem fair, and I know there are times BH is depressed/resentful - partly because of it. I mean, I have the A, and now he's the one who works his tail off to provide a great life for the kids - and I get to stay home, play w/ the kids, go to all sorts of activities with them, etc., etc., etc.

I feel like me going back to medical school is giving HIM something. Instead of asking him to work like an animal and live solely for the kids, that this way he would be able to pursue something for himself.

Wouldn't that be better for the M - a happy FBH?

We do very much get hung up by the role of medical school in the time leading up to my A, and you are absolutely right w/ this:


( , BTW)

So how do I contribute and/or offer up Just Compensation?

I guess I cautiously approach things this way, though with the medical school/career decisions it's trying to put BH first. Because this IS his life, and I want him to have SOME joy out of it.

Where's option 4?

You do something OTHER than medical school to help financially support the family. Besides, providing support 3 years from now doesn't relieve much pressure NOW, does it?

Get a job.

Lexxxy -

You are right, I neglected to list an option 4.

We have thrown around ideas of how I can work from home, but the overall problem is not finances NOW - it is lifelong, potential dissatisfaction and loss of drive in my BH's life that I'm trying to combat. The ways in which BH and I have talked about addressing that revolve around his career. (This was true before D-day, as well, but obviously did not seem so pressing as now, post-A.)

His career provides very well for us now, and in order for him to leave that (at any time, now or in the future) with some reduced worry for the family's financial wellbeing, we have discussed the option of medical school for me. It is a career that provides well for the family, that I have already begun (even if only briefly), and that is there waiting for me right now.

Those are the reasons why we are even considering it an option. I'm trying to figure out how to balance all of it - JC for him, fulfillment and drive in life for him, how we want to raise our children, the importance of financial security.

or how about option 5

My wife is a SAHM

She works harder than I ever will!

If you go back to school/take a job..... He will now have the stress of doing even more work once he is home and YOU will be exhausted too....

Option 5; Become the best damn support system your H could ever dream of, while achieving an affair proof marriage in the process.

Mrs_V,
The first year of medical school is a breeze compared to the third year, fourth year, and minimum three years of residency training before one becomes employable. My H's first two years of medical school were the happiest years of our marriage, the times when we spent the most recreational and family time together. You are not talking financial assistance in three years, you are talking financial assistance in six years, during which your young children would have missed their mother most of their waking hours. And this applies to your H, too. It is a career that does not promote healthy families.

Not to mention, the debt that will accrue during med school!

Mrs. V,

I have to be honest here with what *I* read between the lines in this thread. I read that you want to go to med school and are using your H's career dissatisfaction as an excuse. Believe me if this is true (and you must be completely honest with yourself here) I can understand. Being a doctor would be a hugely satisfying career/accomplishment for anyone. However, as Chrysalis pointed out it is not family friendly for a woman with young children and a marriage in crisis. You would miss out on so much of your children's lives and there would be no JC for your H. I doubt your M would even survive med school, internship and residency.

I know that smb and marriedforever both are stay at home moms. I know that both of them consider it their job to do everything possible to protect the family finances by not using convenience foods, providing home cooked healthy meals for their families and raising good, solid young people. What better contribution to your M and the world than to raise good young people?

Spend some time researching things you can do at home without sacrificing your UA time and your family time and still save on your H's financial burden.

Mrs V,

I should think that being a SAHM is the BEST thing you could do for your marriage, and going back to work or medical school, the worst.

I would agree with the others.

How much has your H looked into how much more $ he would make with a PhD? My H has his Masters and so much continued education, that he is not far off from a PhD, but to actually get it would require a huge time sacrifice and it will NOT garner him a single dime more income. There are not many professions where that extra step or "title" gets you $ in return. Is it important for him to have this title to feel satisfied? Is he expecting more pay, more prestige, what is his actual goal?

Mrs V my daughter is doing medicine and though a bit different over here to you in the US I understand from her its roughly the same type of program and study in many ways....... In terms of the training period... it can take up to 12 years to progress within structured training - from studying medicine at undergraduate level to being appointed as a senior doctor (hospital consultant). GP status may be obtained in seven to nine years. I think she said it was a bit shorter in the US for a GP???? well anyway I'm sure you are aware of it.

After graduation from medical schools... doctors undertake what is seen as an 'apprenticeship' here. In simple terms... well DD was explaining it to me ... this means that you learn more about medical practice 'on the job' - whilst actually practising it within your level of competency... knowledge and skills. This is usually in the hospital or community setting. This 'apprenticeship' begins at the pre-registration intern grade and continues until you become a consultant or a general practitioner through further specialised training.

THATS a lot of time. I know its difficult for my DD also being married to a deployed soldier ... she has I suppose a lot of time available right now which is helpful...if she stops gallivanting around the globe.. another story ... but with kids.. family life... it needs a LOT of planning and maybe a longer term plan than a short few years plan.

Recovering from an affair being the FWW like myself means a whole load of COMMITMENT and though you may be trying to help your H.. really wanting to help... be aware it may be pushing him. Your H I suspect like mine needed to know first of all he was 'safe' in the M. That he and the family would not be crapped on again by me. That takes extraordinary actions by a FWW to always be open and talk through every option.

While he may not 'want' to stop your opportunity he will also not want to see you in the same sit where an affair became possible. It may be that short term career detour will help more right now .. you need to discuss and talk and do NOTHING without his enthusiastic support.

If he needs you to be a SAHM for now... perhaps there are options to do some study at home or attend lectures while kids in care or school etc. Maybe even another career all together? discuss... talk... come to agreement taking into account H.. kids... family etc

just don't jump into anything ...

all the best

AW

"I feel like me going back to medical school is giving HIM".....the anguish is she banging a new OM.

Doctor is not the only way to add to the families income.

As to how unhappy your BH is at his job he is lucky that he has a high paying job and someone is willing to hire him away with a big raise.

There are a lot of guy's out there wishing they had your BH's income. If he has to much money he can always give to those that are short.

You are still WW fogged trying to present this baoney about you going to med school. Presenting it as a sacrafice for your family and in three years you would continue to sacrifice by working and sending your BH to school.

I completely and totally resent this remark, TheRoad. I understand you post pretty bluntly, but to accuse me of being fogged out and telling my BH to be grateful for what he has and give some of his largess to those who have not is insulting and beyond unhelpful.

Can you really not understand the position he is in? Or do you just enjoy tearing other people down?

I'm pretty sure as the one who had the affair I am not allowed to call you out like this, on accusing someone of fogspeak - and perhaps if you had presented your opinion a bit more respectfully, I would not be so hot about it.

I like this option the best - #5!

Chrysalis - thanks for your experience. BH and I had already experienced how hard this is on families during my first year, and to hear you say that those years were some of the happiest ones... Well, it reminds me of just how much work it would be.

You're right. It does NOT promote healthy families. How many times on this board have we seen infidelity in those in the medical professions?

Ugh. You are right. Hooray for student loans, right? Right?

Faith -

Thank you for your candor, and the advice you give here. I realize that my bringing this up can be interpreted as a cover for what I want out - a demand couched in magnanimous terms towards my BH - and I make it a point each time BH and I talk about it to remind him that this is NOT something I want to do. However, just because I don't want it, does that mean we don't consider it? Why should he be the one to have to sacrifice?

So, while I understand how that can sound, I assure you that is not the case. In fact, my BH is the one who brought this up as an option. It is not something I secretly harbor any desire to do. Being a housewife and SAHM is much more fulfilling and much better for our family, I believe.

I just have this horrible feeling of INjustice about it, and that's what I'm trying to remedy. How is it fair to him - I get the life I always wanted (you know, minus the whole infidelity ), and he gets...what? His world shattered, no drive or zest for life anymore? Slogging away at work to let me live such a good life?

I agree. I'm just trying to figure out how I can lessen the "short end of the stick" feeling for my BH.

On a sidenote: I think it's pretty clear (thank you, MBers!) that housewife trumps med school. (Yay!) I think that's what my BH and I have known all along, it's just trying to exhaust all of our possibilities in maximizing happiness post-A.

Thanks for weighing in, Gdar. I think my BH would require a PhD, but I will ask him about Masters options. I'm not sure how much of the goal is for the title as it is for the ultime career position and the credence it would provide.

AW - thank you. I prefer being a housewife/SAHM, and that role is something my BH thinks is highly important, too. I mentioned this just a little earlier, though, and that's that he is the one who brought up the medical school option.

I view this kind of like the part of POJA where we come up with all sorts of crazy options and pick the one we both enthusiastically agree on. So we are considering medical school not as something I want to go back to, but something that's a possibility if it would give my BH more of his love of life back.

Does that make sense? My A took that away from him. We are trying to come up with a solution that gives that back to him while minimizing other stressors. (Obviously the A-prone environment is a HUGE factor, as is the toll on the kids, home life, etc.)

I just don't want to be selfish, either, when I say I don't *want* to do it, so that just means I don't. And BH doesn't *want* to sell his soul to his profession, but, eh, too bad, you're the breadwinner and will take care of it all. Does that make more sense?

Also, AW: Best of luck to your DD with her studies (and travels and family and all of the things it sounds like she has on her plate right now)!

If you work out your finances a bit better, save where you can and become a bit more frugal, perhaps your BH could slow his FASTTRACK down and cut back on how HARD he is working in exchange for a more relaxed lifestyle.

I dunno, there are lots of options when it comes to these things. Keep brainstorming . I don't think it has to be that he even leaves his current job, UNLESS he is expected to work harder and harder and harder in order to KEEP his job.

But you aren't giving him something if it jeopardizes your marriage. You should not create conditions that are likely to result in an affair. That is not giving him anything. That is not just compensation.

If he is uphappy about providing a living for his family, then WHY is that?

huh? So why would you sacrifice your happiness for his? That makes no sense. Your set up is PERFECT, so don't change that! What needs to change is his career. If he is unhappy in his career, then he should focus THERE. But you should not change a thing if that is what makes you happy.

Mrs V,

In my mind this is a no brainer. Not the choice, but how to make the choice. You use the POJA and the police of radical honesty. It really is that simple, it is just not easy.

You don't want to go to med. school, at least that is what you said. Do you realize that over their lifetimes automechanics make more money than most physicans? It is true. Automechanics make good money but more importantly they don't start making good money when they are 40, they start almost 20 years early.

Please explain to me how being gone 10-12 hrs for 3-4 years and in residence on call 24 hours aday is going to help your family. It is not going to help the finances, that is for sure. Further, it is not going to help your H, as he now has the load of debt, tuition, the family and living expenses to handle for at least 6-10 more years.

I think you caught Mel on a slow day, because I KNOW she would be on this "just compensation" idea harder if she were fired up as she usually is. "Just compensation" is about making up for the affair and pain it caused. What your H needs from you is your love, your compassion, and your support. I know this is the reason you posted this, but I think you and your H might want to revisit this. Most men are more than willing to work hard and even work themselves into an early grave, IF their W loves them and respects them for what they are doing. Your A showed how little you respected him.

Your concern for his working long hours as not being good is honorable, but if he went into medicine he would be working long hours. If you go into it you would be working long hours and then how would he go to med school. You two have children.

So my recommendation is that the two of you sit down and really think about the future. Where do you want to be in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. What do you and he want out of life? What do you want from one another? Where do your priorities lie?

Make lots of money is a good thing, but it comes at a cost. Is the cost too high? Being in academia is good, but it comes at a cost, but it can be boring unless he is into research but if he is, then there is the continual fight for grant money.

Short of winning the lottery, life can be challenging. What makes it worth doing is family, achievement (as defined by you two), and sharing it with someone that cares.

Please use Harley's policies and see what you two can come up with. I am not against you going back to med school, but even if it is something you really desire, it will not take the pressure off of your H or your family.

God Bless,

JL

Mel, thank you. Is it really that simple?

I will share this thread with him tonight. It's more for my benefit, I think, and sorting out a Marriage Builders assessment of the career stuff, so thanks for helping with that everyone!

I don't know who is slow today, JL, but I don't think its me. Just compensation is about AFFAIR PROOFING the marriage and meeting each others emotional needs:

Cant We Just Forgive and Forget?

"I just have this horrible feeling of INjustice about it,"

No injustice. I don't think any husband that made enough money we be upset that his W did not work outside the home.

Good girl! Just keep this principle in mind and you will be successful: the soluition should make you BOTH happy while affair proofing your marriage at the same time. If you ENJOY staying home with the kids, then that should not change.

JL -

As usual, you bring up many good points. And there is no easy answer, is there?

I think your thoughts on "just compensation" are in line with what I believed, but I think this thread stems from my love, compassion, and support not being enough - in other words, what more can I do?

But, as you and others have pointed out, adding more stress and pressures and worries and potential A-recreating situations is NOT going to help.

Hmm, maybe we CAN win the lottery...

Okay, I think I must be the slow one - I reply to one thing and there are three others waiting. Whoops!

I will ask BH about this. Thank you!

I've been deluding myself for the last 2 years. BH is one of those who just cannot stay after there has been infidelity. Not even for the kids. The toll on him is too great.

This has reached a head lately because of these career talks. Right now we are essentially living the life we wanted pre-A, yet it's not enough anymore. The A taints everything.

BH says his needs are met, it's just that the fact of the A can never be changed.

I've been holding on to stubborn, delusional hope, and chose to believe that we could fix this if we just tried hard enough.

I have been selfish in wanting to "keep" BH - not just for the kids, but for me and what I want for us. As he phrased it, he feels like he's not being given the option to leave. I told him, "You do have the option to leave. I just don't want to make it easy for you."

I can't do that anymore. I've been viewing all of these discussions about careers and future options as either #1: keeping me, or #2: pushing me out the door. I think it's actually been #3: partnering to address what's not working w/ the current situation and figuring out a solution that's best for us/the family.

Ugh.

Mine was. He made over 100K a year in a LCOL area and he was continually irritated that I didn't get a job. Even though I was a good SAHM and wife....taking care of everything so that he could further advance his career.

Mrs V.

I don't understand your last post, please expand. Are you saying that your H has not gotten over your A? Or are you saying that he wants to end the marriage?

He has always had the option of leaving as you left him for your A. However, if he is considering leaving, but has not left, then there are many things for you to do using the tools on this site.

No matter it takes on average, according to Harley, for a marriage to heal from an A and within that period there are lots of ups and downs.

Please hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for your post, J_L. I get too wordy, so tried to just hit the highlights in my last post.


I think the answers to your questions are both "yes." There will never be any getting over the A - it was too egregious. On depressing days - which are frequent - ending the M is strongly considered. As BH put it, he "just wants his life back."

At the very least, the status quo needs to change. We talked last night. Right now, not sure where things stand.

Mrs. V.,

I have sad news for your H and you for that matter. You don't ever "get your life back". It just does not happen. We are a product of our experiences, our decisions, and decisions we had no part in. All anyone gets is a chance to lead a better life in the future and that is a decision that all of us have to make individually.

I wish my memory was better, but there is a poem Ozzamodius (sp) by Omar Kyham (sp) that ends with something along the lines that the hand have written will never undo what is written. If you are interested I can look it up, but the point is we all get ONE CHANCE at this MOMENT in time and there are no do overs.

You and your H need to really understand this. There are no "I'll make this up to you", there is no "I want my life back", there is simply NOW and the FUTURE. It is up to both of you to make now good, and the future better.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Mrs V,

While our marriage is now better than it ever was, more satisfying to both of us than at any time in the past and more solidly built on viable and Godly principals than either of us ever imagined in our wildest dreams, it is still one that was nearly destroyed by selfishness and deception and a stubborn desire to undue everything we ever had or will have.

The cost was money, time, anguish and even illness probably brought on by the stress of that time.

What makes it doubly sad is that we could have had what we have now from the very beginning without the affairs and without the tears, sorrow, animosity and lies. We could have had the same dynamic in our marriage without the betrayal, but alas, that betrayal occurred and unfortunately we get no Mulligans in life.

If "ifs and buts" were "candy and nuts" we'd all have a marvelous Christmas...

Mark

Mrs. V,

It was bugging me that I could not remember the quote or spell correctly. I went an looked it up. Here is the verse

It is from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.

You and your H need to understand this and then perhaps you can decide to make a good life together.

God Bless,

JL

Agreed, nothing can be undone. And it is useless to sit and stew and wish and hope and waste energies wanting things to be great w/o my infidelity. JL, as you mentioned, there are ups and downs, and during the downs it's a lot of dwelling on the past.

I think it's easy to get stuck doing that when I have put my BH in such a position. He is not happy w/ the way things are now, and as much as I want to hope and be stubborn and think that enough time and trying will be enough to eventually produce a great M, the problem is that it is NOT happening that way - and it's taking a huge toll on my BH.

That's why I can't keep the same tactic of "try and dig in my heels and hope and trust in time." Something has to change. I want the M, I want the kids to have their parents together, but the events of late have forced me to admit that it's most likely not in my BH's best interest - at least, not the way things are.

Not really going anywhere w/ this, I guess. I want the M, my BH can't be happy with me = we're at an impasse.

JL - thanks for the reference, btw. The poem sounds familiar. Maybe I'll fire up the ol' memory banks and figure out why!

This makes me sad. Because it's true.

Mark, why did you decide to stay?

Mrs. V.,

You must understand that ultimately it is your H that must decide to make this marriage something he enjoys and derives pleasure from. It is not your decision to make...it never was. What has to change is your H's perspective. I will say this you are both very very young. You both have a lot of life ahead of you.

Rather than be down, learn, grow, and enjoy what there is...your children, your friends, your neighbors. Look around and enjoy. You never can tell it might rub off on your H.

You must understand the issues he is struggling with are internal to him. He has to heal, he has to deal with them, and he has to learn to see you in a new light with a future before he can recover from this. It may well happen, it might not.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

You are right, JL. Thank you.

We have a few meetings coming up re: life/career options, so we'll get those taken care of and then sit down to brainstorm what we'll do with our life/lives.

In the meantime, no more expectations, no more reliance on hope, just more pragmatism and willingness to consider any non-M options BH needs. It is his decision, and I can let him know where I stand....but I can also be more supportive of what he needs after my infidelity.

Trying to force feed my desire for happily ever after is going to get us nowhere.

Mrs V,

You asked me why I stayed...

I was the one who fought for the marriage. It was me who learned about MB and tried to apply the methods unilaterally. I saw the possibility of a better furture and not just the crap that had passed for marriage for over 30 years.

I did it and put in the work because of two primary reasons.

1) I hadn't been perfect either.

2) God had forgiven me for stuff I had no right to be forgiven and so I decided to try to forgive, understanding that I might be betrayed again. (If it happens again, there won't be another recovery)

The biggest factor in my decision was one of forgiveness but I also had no notions of love and marriage being something with a mystical or magical component. The media and literature worlds portray love and marriage as something that is on some plane well above this one we live on. So for those who buy into that, betrayal happens on that plane as well. In such cases it isn't just physical and emotional but some sort of spiritual or other world betrayal and so has a deeper meaning than the here and now.

For me, that whole notion is a lot of hogwash and I never believed that love and emotional things reside in some more ethereal or higher plane of existence. The science of Marriage Builders was what struck me first.

For me, it came down to an if - then - else situation: If X then Y, else D. If we applied meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters to our marriage, it would improve and become a better marriage than before and if it did not, we could divorce, knowing it would not get better.

We lived 30+ years together without knowing what we needed to do to keep love alive. A year or two of trying to learn how to do that wasn't going to steal anything from either of us, so why not learn how to use the tools of MB to build a better marriage.

It took a little longer than a year for my wife to get on board and over two years before she showed much enthusiasm for learning everything.

To be honest, the single biggest factor in staying married boiled down to me getting sick and her taking care of me instead of running off to be elsewhere. Had she started going out at night or run off to be with OM during that time, I wouldn't be here now to relate the story.

But the first part is still what allowed me to let her remain a part of my life. If love is something magical that happens to us and so can also un-happen to us, then once it has un-happened then there is nothing we can do to bring it back. This is actually how most view love and is why affairs often happen. If it happens, it seems it was meant to be and when it is gone, that was meant to be as well. (some find a middle ground where what once was was not the real thing but only what they thought was real and so now this new one is what must be real)

I can also tell you that the more closely your husband believes he lived up to the ideal husband, that is, the closer he thinks he was to what he feels he needed to be, the less he is willing to forgive an affair by his wife. If it wasn't his fault, it must be yours. He probably asks "why?" a lot. There is no adequate answer to that question. Nothing is a good enough answer as to why a person would betray the one person they promised they would never betray or leave. It will never make sense because it is really senseless.

If he has a hard time understanding that it happened because you were selfish and that you now know how to not ever be that selfish again, then he gets stuck in this place where he has internalized a lot of your complaints from that time and thinks that it is up to him to keep you faithful and that is too damned much work for any man.

See, especially early into recovery, a WS will say things like, "If my ENs had been met, I wouldn't have had an affair." Maybe a tinge of truth to that, but while that might be a viable reason why the cheater decided to cheat it is not a valid reason to have an affair. It also does not mean that unmet needs was the cause of the affair and THAT is where a person who knows nothing of the MB process gets stuck. Almost any mention of his meeting your ENs will result in a link to the excuse of unmet ENs being the cause of affairs and the loop repeats endlessly.

Sometimes, some of the things we did during the early days of recovery have to be undone in order to move past the place we are now. It's like building a temporary wall to hold up the roof while we install a header and posts to allow for a new window or door to bring in the light from outside. We can't destroy the existing wall until the temporary is put up but once the new stuff is ready for the window, we can't get the house into the condition we intended until the temporary stuff is torn down and removed.

So look at some of the things you said or did, back right after D-day, when you were still struggling, to see if there is any temporary fix put into place that needs to be taken down and hauled away in order to get that amazing new view that will come from the installation of the new window...

If you told him anything just to get him off your back at the time, this stuff now needs to be addressed. If he discovered the affair by confession at a time when things were improving between you then some of that stuff pre-confession needs to be examined to see if it was really part of the recovery process or something that was a duct tape and baling wire - throw it together temporary fix that was only a temporary solution that now needs to be replaced with real recovery stuff so that the marriage can become what it needs to be for the future.

Any of that make sense?

Mark

This is excellent!


I would say, TOO MUCH for any betrayed spouse, man or woman.

In the same way that I cannot be responsible for my H's sobriety.
I also cannot be responsible for his faithfulness.

I try to keep my side of the equation clear.
That is what is within my locus of control.

This includes my thoughts as well as my behavior, yanno.

Stinkin' thinkin' GOODBYE!

Mrs. V,

Are you starting to get the idea of what all of us are telling you? Are you starting to see you have control over you and only YOU? Are you starting to see that if this marriage is to survive you BOTH must take care of business and not each others business?

JL

I think I do understand what you're saying, Mark. Thank you for your post. I know I was (keyword: was) one of those who believed love was this magical thing. It took the destruction of the A to change that. That, and many honest, humbled talks w/ my BH.

But even understanding that now, well, it's too late. We have a relatively young M, my infidelity was sooo egregious (exactly in line w/ your statement about BH being the ideal H), and the ability to jump/trust and move on with the relationship is asking too much of him.

I'm not sure if we are stuck w/ any stopgap measures at this point, though I do think you're right in that he still feels responsible for keeping me faithful. I will ask him about both of these ideas. Thank you.

= The Stinkin' Thinkin' Be Gone Bandits.

Some days are more down than others. I'm sure the forum loves it when I share on those days!

All kidding aside, this is true. And I DO know this. I just felt for so long that if I wanted it badly enough, if I believed enough, if I hoped enough, that it would be...well, that it would be enough. That if I gave it enough time, that if I kept pulling my BH along, being chipper, being bright about the future, being so confident we could do it and that any discussion of anything else was tantamount to failure... I thought that I could force it. And I can't.

It IS his decision, and I cannot control him. I made my decisions, I can do my best to keep my side of the street clean (and inviting!), and I cannot control him or what he does with his life.

I know that.

I just didn't want to admit it. Because admitting it was making the vague, unmentioned possibility of him leaving the M an all-too-real reality.*





*Yes, this smacks of selfishness, entitlement, and spoiled-little-bratness. I realize that. Just another reason why I have to move past it and let that kind of thinking go.

Understood, JL. I've finally come to terms with that in my actions, not just acknowledging it in my head. Thank you.

Mrs. V,

Sorry if I missed this somewhere in your posts but has your BH read SAA? Have you discussed MB and the concepts? Does he realize anyone is capable of having an A including himself? I think this is a huge realization that can help alot of BS's.

Do you think he would be willing to participate here? Your BH may be stuck in his own stinkin' thinkin' and could really benefit from the support of other BH's that have been through it. When you are stuck in that quagmire sometimes you need a lifeline and not one that comes from the WS. The folks here could be a lifeline for your BH.

Just a thought.

Hi! Mrs_Vanilla,

Sorry to hear that you guys aren't doing OK right now.

Have you done and discussed the weakness protection plan with your husband? He needs to understand that it isn't his responsibility to guard you from having another affair, that is your own responsibility. I still discuss it with my BH, at least every other week (as per SHarley request), just to remind him that I'm guarding myself from future affairs, and that I'm in control.

Keep doing your part, and give it a 100%, it's the only way to make it. I was killing myself thinking what if I spend years trying to save my marriage, and in the end it doesn't work. I had already started to look for jobs, etc... But at the end I realized, that all that energy should be spend on positive thoughts and actions, and I was definitely not doing enough (even though I thought I was!!!). Now, I pay close attention at my BH needs, and worries and try to work on them ahead of time. So far (at least for the last week, I've been successful).

Good luck, and if you haven't done the weakness protection plan, let me know and I'll explain in more details.

Good luck, and be strong!

Hi mindshare,

Thank you for your advice. My BH was actually the one who got us on this site. He ordered SAA, we both read and discussed it. He knows and reads my posts, and has read other threads in the past (back closer to D-day). We have, in fact, counseled w/ Steve 5 or 6 times. (It was BH's B-day present to me last year. )

For a long time, I fixated on him being "on board" w/ MB in its entirety, and I was sure that if he just started posting then he would "drink the Kool-Aid" and we would both be committed to the same dream of happily ever after, the end! (Is anybody sensing a theme here? ) I did share some of the same thoughts you had with him - that perhaps it would help to hear from others. I think, though, it still boils down to making that leap or not.

I will show him your post, and will continue to try to partner and do what's best for him instead of just bulldoze over him in my quest for what I think is what's best for all of us.

Hi Rizos,

Glad to hear you're getting a handle on things. The MB plan really does make a lot of sense, doesn't it? I think the benefit of reviewing your Weakness Protection Plan is twofold, too, in that it not only reminds your BS of your EPs, but it also keeps you on top of them. Good job!

We have actually counseled w/ Steve, and I have come up with my own Weakness Protection Plan, EPs, etc. I think the problem here is more that I put 100% of my efforts into stubbornly forging ahead w/ solely my goal in focus.

I was so convinced that staying together was right, that it would work and we would be so happy and thankful for the relationship that I didn't acknowledge the very real suffering my BH is still enduring. Meaning, he would bring up alternatives (I return to medical school, e.g.) and I would refuse to consider that as a sign that he was not happy with where we were, that, no, it was not just a matter of enough time and hope and trying...that I may very well have to admit that my betrayal was too great.

That's been the hardest part, and that's where I've finally arrived. I have to let him go if that's what he needs. So right now I'm trying to incorporate that, instead of just sticking my head in the sand and trying harder, hoping more.

Mrs. V,

You should be working 100% for both of YOU, and YOUR MARRIAGE! Staying together it's what's RIGHT! If he is feeling weak right now, then you should be the strong one, by supporting your marriage, which is what is good for him. You both have to understand that if you work on the MB you will be successful. You both are talking like the marriage is not going to work. Are you guys spending 15+ hours together (IC, Affection, SF and RC)? Because if you are not, then your marriage will failed.

You said it yourself, he is the one who found MB, he probably just need a push. Why haven't you guys make an appointment with SHarley alreday? You can't spend time an energy thinking if your marriage is going to work or not, that's going to be too frustrating!!! If you guys follow the rules, it will work!!! Do not give up!, and please call Steve Harley, ASAP...

Rizos -

Just to clarify, we have counseled w/ Steve 5-6 times already. We have been on MB for almost 2 years, and regularly discuss and implement MB principles.

Perhaps I am making this into a "we're speeee-shul" situation when it really isn't. However, I think it is an accurate assessment (and BS's, please, correct me if I'm wrong) that my BH may just be one of those who cannot recover from infidelity, no matter how much we work the program.

It is also important to understand - especially for us (F)WS's - that a BS re-engaging in the M is a monumentally huge leap of faith. HUGE. They just got burned worse than anything, and now they are potentially coming back for more. I think we need to appreciate that not everyone can/will sign on for that.

Rizos, do not think I have given up on the M. I am just finally admitting that what's best for my BH - the one whose life I blew to bits, the one who is not culpable at all, in any way - may be letting him go.

Am I wrong to think this, people?

Or maybe he and I are just both depressed. Permanently. Does this club come with lifetime anti-deps?

Not sure if this qualifies as a Recovery question or not, but figured I'd post it to the high-traffic board:

Lately I've seen a lot of references to the "2-year mark," a point in time that seems to be a particular low on the recovery rollercoaster.

Does something like that exist in most/all situations?

How long-lasting are those feelings?

We are just a couple of months shy of 2 years post D-day. I'd describe our "recovery" as... neither of us pushing to get back up the hill on the rollercoaster. My BH (and, subsequently, I) hit a real bad patch a few weeks back, and that seems to have stuck. He said he couldn't continue w/ the relationship, and I finally stopped fighting him for it.

I feel like that's giving up.

I have since been trying to operate w/ no hope. But now this 2-year idea is planting seeds. Argh.

This is a one day at a time endeavor!

This is a process, not an event!

When I wake up every morning, I pray WITH my wife and I pray FOR my wife. She does the same in return.

We re-commit to each other every day, and when necessary we use words. Actions are what count! Care and Protection!

We purpose to care for and protect each other, even when we may not "feel" like it.

One month, one year, two years, five years........ it's still a narrow path that you must purpose to stay on, or you will fall off.

Thanks for the reminder, tst/HPB. I think he and I are both doing that - exercising care and protection, it just seems like the heart has gone out of it.

Also, I think I should point out that my BH has never recommitted to the M - it's been a cautious approach to "we'll try and see what happens" (as opposed to "married at (almost) all costs"). With that in mind, I notice I get down a lot more - because it seems like every down time is the last time.

And, also, I think this last one really was.

Sorry, excuse me while I try to sleep/eat/buy my way out of depression.

Ms V,

Interesting.

For a view from the other side of the canyon -

I see a great deal of me in your H. I too came to a point where I simply did not much want to be married to a woman who could do what she did.

In essence I finally realized the truth of JL�s words to you:

�There are no "I'll make this up to you", there is no "I want my life back", there is simply NOW and the FUTURE. It is up to both of you to make now good, and the future better.�

In the end it did not matter she was not doing it any more. Nor that she seemed (who knows what passes for truth in the mind of a former adulterer) to be sorry. It was all me. It took me almost five years past the second D-Day of the VLTA to get to this point, and I have spent the past couple of years planning and organizing what best to do for everyone involved. I worried about her quite a bit, but I am moving on.

I decided I would rather make an end to the past in its entirety and start life over anew without her. I decided I will do exactly what JL wrote to you, but for myself � make a new future in which there is no adulteress, neither current nor former, to distract my thoughts. Perhaps I grew too tired of knowing what she had done, knowing the lie she made me live for so long. Perhaps I am just a quitter. But the past became too heavy for me to carry any more. I am setting it down and moving away from it and all that reminds me of it.

I don�t think MB has any cure for what is inside me. I simply am not going to get over it. As you write, �The A taints everything.� It taints everything inside me, actually. So I am moving on.

It is working out quite well for me. Perhaps not for her, but then she can always find another OM if she wants to. It seems to have been pretty easy for her to meet her OM last time, and there are plenty of OMs to meet out there for wives already experienced in adultery, so I don�t worry too much about her any more.

I wish your H joy. Not necessarily happiness. Happiness was never promised us. So I wish him joy. What do you wish him?

Good luck to you too.

Interesting indeed, Aphelion. It's almost poetic, your posting - you were one of the early posters on my first thread here on the boards, ( here ).

I agree wholeheartedly. Your response is almost identical to what my BH has been feeling/articulating. And I can appreciate the need to just be away from it all. For both you and my BH.

I have finally come to the point where I can accept that. I still don't like it, and I still get despondent and wish things were different - but I gave up my right to complain, didn't I?

Thank you for referencing JL's advice, too. There is no making it up. There is no wishing so hard it actually changes the past. It's just how we handle things moving foward.

Hm. I guess the upswing from depression is melancholy musing?

Almost forgot to answer your question, Aphelion:

I wish my BH peace. And fulfillment. And I can accept that he may need to find those things without me.

This clean and complete starting over is indeed promising to be peaceful and fulfilling.

I have the resources to be able to pursue pretty much any interest I find fulfilling.

Not having a FWW to wonder and worry about (as Dr Harley says, no one should trust their spouse unconditionally) brings peace all by itself.

As your earlier post implies re your H, divorce is not going to free me to remarry. I will not be able to marry again in the church. But not having to wonder about marriage, or dating or anything to do with relationships and probable cheating in general is also peaceful.

It took me these fast few years to get to this point, but it is very good to know I do not need anyone else to live a fulfilling life.

Life is looking better to me than it has in a long, long time. I hope the same for your BH.

Actually, I hope the same to you too. But, I have no idea how an adulterer could ever go about it.

My opinion, for what it's worth Mrs. V, is that you continue to work toward recovery if/until your DH files for divorce. In the absence of that, or abuse, you keep going.

It sounds like you are looking for someone to tell you it's ok to stop working, to give up.

Med school is a breeding ground for A, along with hospitals and clinics.

Seen it, saw the devistation. One woman's son, then husband committed suicide because of her choice to A. In our class alone I witnessed almost every type of A, from married couples in our class having A with other classmates to other classmates S. You name it.

Then go to residency and you want to puke because it made school look like tryouts for A fantasy land.

Mrs. V,

You are one of them and to think for some reason you can go back and have an A proof M is simply insane thinking, ie. "doing the same thing and expecting different results".

I am sorry you are in this situation and believe your remorse, but you can move across the country or world and go to any school you choose thinking it will be different. But when you are in the same class day after day and nights studying, labs, crunching for tests USMLE for years it will happen and did happen to you.

My W wishes she could turn back the clock to start over. It's been 8 years and for the most part the memory isn't there, but I still do not trust her. She is now finding that supporting me (our student loans were 250k together) is the best way to heal me. At times I get very frustrated still. She is SAHM and never practiced for the most part, but she is beginning to become the traditional homemaker (which neither one wanted her to be in the beginning) and we have the best kids in the world. Our bumpy M was the result of both of us with her A thrown in, but her support has been better than her having a 6 figure income even though I work 50+ hours.

I am glad. I am sad the M was not recoverable (because obviously I have a vested interest in seeing marriages recover after infidelity), but glad you as the BS are feeling good about life again.

Interesting. Up until this last low on the rollercoaster, it had been quite a bit easier expressing such sentiments to other BSs than to my own BH - because that would be admitting maybe having me in his life wasn't what was best for him. (Ha, that's rich, right? I think I've clearly proven having me in his life has been nothing but bad!)



Me neither.

This is what I am planning/doing, yes. I just need to not be so darn hopeful - that really sends me into a tailspin when reality comes crashing down around me.



I see how my words could read like that. However, that's very much not the case. I think I'm looking for more of that pesky hope. I think I'm looking for others who have experienced the different facets of infidelity to sound off on.

Re: getting an out, though - my BH has given me innumerable outs, telling me I can leave, I can walk away, and not understanding how doing so is not more appealing than staying in a relationship where everything is tainted, where I'm not free to go after OMs, etc.

I'll tell you what I have told him: I don't want an out. My A says otherwise, but with my head on straight and a complete change in how I view M, I don't want anything else.

And therein lies the problem. I don't want anything else, but he does.

Interesting that you say this. For us, I think the opposite is becoming true. I am a homemaker/SAHM, and that's how I would love for things to continue. However, that puts the onus on my BH to shoulder the financial burden, the job stress, and not see the rewards that I get to see daily - fun with our kids, memories, making a home.

If med school is what he needs me to do, if that gives our M a better shot, then I'm willing to do it. It isn't quite the same as before - this time I have EPs, I have nuked former lives on my hands, and a trial-by-fire understanding of what I need to do to protect my BH and our M, and who I need to be.

Med school will only create more stress for your BH IMO. You can still find other employment if FS is important to him.

Hmm. I wonder if this is, maybe subconsciously for him, a self-fulfilling prophecy? Thinking "Well, she's bound to find someone else, she's going to ditch me, I can't depend on her for anything anyway" - that if I go to med school, well, that will all happen? So he doesn't need to commit?

Eh, I don't think that's right. I think it does give him reason to stay protected, but I don't think that's what's driving him. I guess psych stuff is not the concern, though. It's finding a way out of an impossible situation.

BH may be stressed out no matter what you do. A BS can often feel like they are getting the raw end of the deal no matter what decision is made...that is just the nature of the beast. He may see med school as an escape for you and resentful about you becoming a doctor at his expense. I don't know what is in his head but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of back and forth.

Have you asked him specifically what you can do to help lower his stress with the hours he works? I wouldn't bring up med school.

b_r - thanks for the insight, and for the BS experience. I think you're right about the back and forth.

The back and forth does make it more difficult to wrap my head around one solution. FS is important to him - losing the financial stability we currently have, and the concurrent ability to provide well for the kids, is keeping him at his current job. He knows, though, that *just* this job is not going to fulfill him. He's not sure if he'll get that elsewhere, but thinks it's worth a shot. So it's not just about the stress, it's about getting something good back in his life.

He's the one who brought up medical school as a way to ease some of the financial worry. The hours are good (once I get to actually practicing - admittedly a long, tough way to go), the pay is good. He also sees it as a way for me to be "taken care of" when he leaves the relationship for good.

I think I need to spend more time brainstorming other alternatives.

Thanks again for your insight, b_r -- I think your assessment is correct, that my BH definitely feels like he's gotten the raw end of the deal. I can't disagree, I'm just trying to make it not feel that way.

Mrs. Vanilla - I don't remember reading if you are fully active in any specific faith or relationship with God.

You have reached the realization that no matter how well you live your life now, you have no power to remove the dagger from your husband's heart.

We are all sinners. And in that same way that you are experiencing the "permanence" of sin without an atonement, we are all doomed to that same reality once we get to see the magnitude of consequence of our secrets on those we love.

That permanence of consequence was driven home to me in a weird way when I saw "Sweet Charity" for the first time. She never gave a second thought to what she did for a living, until she met the love of her life. All this time, she had taken the easy way to money instead of working to get skills and studying and practicing and taking the menial jobs to work her way up. That route had been invisible until she saw that she was in a place that offended his soul and who she had really become made it impossible for him to reconcile who she was with what he had dreamed for his future wife.

"This kind goes not out except by fasting and prayer". That's the reality - you both need a power greater than yourselves. Your husband wants to heal. You want him to heal. You have done all that you can, but just as faith without works is dead, works without faith are also dead. You need a living faith, active and alive in spite of evidence that nothing is happening.

Your husband can't forgive because there is an unmet need. I believe it is a spiritual need for renewal.

I think the two of you need to fast and pray over the career change, and talk about it honestly and openly. Looking forward and not backward, what lifestyle and marriage would you like to have five years from now. Forget about what kind of path you need to be on to get there - the how shows up when you know what you want. I believe he doesn't really know what he wants. And I don't think you do either. Change is being avoided, yet change has been thrust upon you.

You might want to read "Who Moved My Cheese" and discuss how you adapt and find new cheese - a new marriage, a new life.

KA, thank you. I usually get a lot out of your posts, and this was no exception. I think you hit on a number of good points. And your "Sweet Charity" example puts into words the impossibility of these situations.

BH and I are religious, though you may be spot on with the idea about faith in spite of evidence that nothing is happening. I think I need to harmonize my idea of faith and not just things happening however I think is right or best, but faith and whatever happens.



Both true, I think.

I need to cogitate for a while now. And talk w/ my BH. Thank you.

PS - This:



takes me back to my LDS days. That was some years ago, but that's in some ways a poignant throwback.

Cool. I'm LDS. But I also like the inverse of that phrase in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 63: 11

Without faith, all of our works avail us NOTHING.

It reminds me that I have to trust God even though I can't see what might be changing in my life.

You're welcome Mrs. V


And that thinking may change tomorrow or next week. Living it and thinking it are two different things.

Let's just say, you do go to med school and your marriage does end...have you thought about how your work with affect your children. Doc hrs suck. How will you handle that with young children?

Just spending time reading through your thread.

A couple of questions?

Is your H caught up in the "good life"? Big house, fancy car, country club, all the signs of 'financial success".

Are you both living beyond your means to make up your past discretions because sometime retail therapy does help.

He is making a decent paycheck even though I do not know what part of the country you are trying to raise your family.

Maybe de-simplifying your lives might help. Less could be more. More time, more job satisfaction, more of less.

Instead of going after the golden fleece look at the happy faces of your children in a loving home with both parents.

Just my 2 cents.

Blessings.

Hey b_r - You have a point about the long hours and kids. The way I *want* things to work will be going into a more family-friendly specialty. I also would try for a residency in those specialties that has more family-friendly hours.

We have discussed alternative career options, like pursing a Ph.D. instead. The hours are much better, though there is a pay cut. I am more interested in medicine at this point, though mere interest shouldn't be the sole determinant.

Right now it looks like we're leaning towards BH staying with his current career (supplemented with many outside interests), me going back to med school, school and nanny for the two little ones. More long-term than that, well, I'm working on no expectations.

Thanks for stopping by


Hmm. Not obsessively so. He and I both know what it's like to live on a tight (read: near-nonexistent) budget, and we want to provide better for our kids and ourselves than that.


Retail therapy! No, we certainly don't live beyond our means. The only debt is my student loans, and those are paid per loan schedule each month.


This is absolutely true. So right now we're trying to find a way to balance it all - income to provide for the kids, job satisfaction and leisure time to keep Mom and Dad sane and happy and productive members of society, all under the umbrella of quality family togetherness. Awwww.

Now, it's just not quite as easy when it's in the context of recovering from infidelity.

Sooo...any word on that 2-year idea? 'Cuz I could use some hope here.

Actually, scratch that. Hope scr3ws me over.

It feels like we've lost in the last month or so any progress we may have made in the last two years. For quite a while, there were not nearly so many comments, not as many withdrawn "fights," and I had hope. Maybe it's because I was blindly bulldozing BH along what I thought was R, and he was letting me? And I have since stopped that, and neither of us is pushing.

On another note: I think I have a Taker problem. (This may or may not be related to the previous paragraph's idea. ) BH has made a few comments lately, and I have - before thinking and shutting my mouth - responded with an attitude. His comments may or may not be A-related, yet I am quick to cut him off ("You have said that, I know where your mind's at, that's okay" in an abrupt dismissal of his repeated comment that he can't depend on me for FS for the kids after we completely D) or jump to my own defense (when no defense was needed, just a simple explanation or nothing at all).

I think what's happening is that, w/ neither of us pushing R along, the LB$s are taking bigger hits w/ any LBers, and the LB$ deposits are making less of an impact.

He has insulated himself and a D is inevitable. I'm trying to keep on w/ meeting ENs, no expectations, yet I find I'm losing my drive. Before I had this long-term picture I was working towards, and now I don't really care what the future holds. I have no vision on which to focus, and don't much care that I don't.

I guess all of this is moot, anyway, as this is exactly what I did to him (though my experience is on a lesser scale, and completely of my own doing - he didn't have a say in my infidelity), and he's committed to a complete D. It's only a matter of time.

Not even sure why I'm writing this. Guess I just need somewhere to express it all.

Just keeping this around. From here.

Mrs_Vanilla


Do you know immediately when you do this? Do you stop and immediately apologize and restate that? We have this same problem, sometimes from me (everything is a long, drawn out story with GM and sometimes I just want a yes or no answer then I bust him) or from him because that is his habit along with excuses. Instead of pointing it all out to each other (creates anger or sadness) we allow each other time to reflect and come back with an apology. If that does not happen the anger subsides and we can talk about it in a better frame of mind. For me as the BS I need him to catch himself and correct himself. He is learning that. For me I need to do better at avoiding those things coming from me entirely, do it in a more polite and considerate way, not to LB him. It is getting better and I tell you that it makes a huge difference in the way we take all our little (or big) faults and foibles.

We are working through this with conversation in the workbooks with HNHN. It is amazing how it all fits together and how it actually works. Dr. Harley is a genius but you all know that by now anyway AND Kim is a wonderful coach! **Hearts to Kim**

Hiya, DWG!

It's appropriate that you ask how I handle these kinds of situations. For pretty much our entire relationship pre-A (and some now post-A, see the rest of this post), I was looooooathe to be wrong, to admit an error, to depend on someone else to get something done for me or fix a problem I got us into but wouldn't admit. (Most probably won't consider these huge things. It was stuff like not wanting to ask for directions and such. But those can turn into huge things!)

I also never appreciated the importance of a verbal apology. I wallowed in my misery at being wrong or messing things up, and didn't acknowledge how my H felt, nor did I often deliver an apology when it was necessary.

I'm trying to fix all of that now. So now, when I identify that, I try to either apologize and explain where I got things wrong, or I try to gauge my BH's mood/response and keep things upbeat...

Now that you ask, though, I'm thinking back. That particular instance that I gave, I didn't apologize. I should have as soon as I realized his mood was dropping, or as soon as I realized how that sounded or could be taken.

Aaaaand the MB philosophy comes full-circle. Here's what I think (because I'm sure you aaaallll care about the nitty-gritty here): a day or so prior, I was relaying a convo to my BH about my troubled brother, and BH cut me off not one sentence in w/ a remark about my A. (It was a true statement, but I still took it hard.) I started again, and not through the second sentence he cut me off again w/ another remark. So I ended that convo and that was it. I didn't address that with him, I got down, and I think it was lingering so that, by the third comment the next night about FS for the family, I jumped to cutting him off.

DWG, you're right about how we handle these situations. I think BH needs to see me recognizing and owning this on my own, and I think both of us being able to address these w/o LBers is key. I think for us it works better to address it right away - if it goes unaddressed, things usually spiral downwards.

Thanks for sharing what you guys have been learning. Every little bit helps!

Just trying to think of things we have learned that might help. One thing Kim has us do is give each other a cue if we are not going to be able to address it at that time. We just leave for a while into another room then come back when we are ready to deal without the blow up that would have occurred. It is working very well for us this way. I am sure you have tried it all but anything to help just in case. GM used to push me so hard before I was ready. He would not stop so I stop it now by telling him I need the space and then go think. Sometimes it even takes me several days to really formulate what it was that actually upset me. We are more clear that way.

It really helps the BS when you catch yourself and apologize. Sometimes we BS's feel we can get away with saying anything we want so it probably requires a little more patience on the WS part. It is all such a big old mess but when you catch yourself and quickly talk about it it gives an air of feeling that there is real work going on from the WS. I found that to be most helpful.

DWG - thanks for the support and ideas. I still have to work on this, I realize. Recognizing, verbalizing, resolving. Rinse and repeat...

Okay, who wants to answer some trivia questions? Let's start the fun!

1) Does giving my BH an amicable divorce qualify as just compensation? (I'm inclined to think it does.)

2) How can I coax us out of withdrawal? (Conflict, I want conflict! And: I suspect this goes against Question #1.)

3) Anyone have access to a time machine? (A poor attempt at levity.)

Hey Mrs. V!

Sorry that you are floundering right now. I know you betrayed your H but I've seen alot of your posts around here and I realize that you really do want to try to right your wrongs. I believe you are working the program and trying to get a favorable outcome. You seem to 'get it'.

But sometimes that's not enough.

Unfortunately, some people never get past the betrayal. Your BH may be one of them. If you cannot get him to particpate in a program of marital recovery such as MB then I'm not sure what else you can do.

MB offers the best plans for marital recovery but it's definitely no guarantee and still a long shot.

Wish I had more wisdom to offer you but I don't.

Stick around though because you are adding value to this place.

Thanks, mindshare

I think I've come to (mostly) accept that BH will never get past the betrayal. Understandably so, I know. Still doesn't make it easy to give up all hope.

I think the boards are a mixed blessing in that respect. It keeps recovery and those fighting for their marriages/recovery at the forefront, and I have to watch myself so I don't fall into the trap of "MB will always work eventually" and/or "there is always hope for recovering the M." Not that those aren't true statements broadly speaking, but not so true if the BS is one of those that just cannot get past adultery.


I sometimes wonder if people think I'm a hypocrite - as in, I'm not even recovering my own M, so who am I to advise others in their potential R?

Regardless, thanks for the input.

If you are a hypocrite then so am I Mrs. V. I didn't reover my marriage either. The big difference between you and I is that you have a 'W' in front of the 'S' while I have a 'B'.

But, that is not a pre-requisite for posting on MB and reaching out to help others. MB offers plans to attempt to recover a marriage. It doesn't always work. In fact, I personally believe it works less often then it doesn't. Not that the plans are flawed, because I believe in the plans, but recovering from betrayal is just so incredibly difficult.

So, keep posting and help others. Pay it forward. It's the right thing to do.

Agreed!

Just keeping around a rather succinct summation:


Here.

Still struggling with this whole "end of the ideal" thing and keeping my hope quashed. I also think I'm being a whiny baby because I am having difficulty moving past this, and hel-LO, who has the W in front of their S? So I should quit my whinging.

I've been all over the place as far as BH's motivations for this change in plans. I think it's because I'm not listening, yet my feelings have been fairly accurate (I think) as far as what I suspect is going on inside his head.

Wanting me to go back to medical school is NOT about FS. Not at all. Instead it's about:

1) BH feeling like he's sacrificing everything if he stays w/ his current job, is our sole breadwinner, and I get to loaf around at home. (My words on the last part.) I would be "dead weight." (Both of our words.)

This is because he is committed to providing well for the family, and he feels locked into his current job ad infinitum. His current job is NOT going to be a source of long-term happiness/fulfillment, so he wants to explore other options.

2) Trying to make sure our sons don't cast him in a negative light when it comes time to completely D. As in, "But, Dad, Mom spent all those years staying home, caring for us, she had no outside work, and now you're just going to leave her to fend for herself?"

I already shared that I am pretty darn sure they will vilify me (and rightly so), and the day we have That Talk with them will be the beginning of the end of my relationship with my children.

I suppose that's not the best way to answer that, as it doesn't acknowledge his very real fears about this.

The end goal is to essentially "create a different family dynamic."

I actually don't know why I am posting any of this. It doesn't change anything. I am doing nothing productive. It's all just one big pile of crappity crap crapness. Courtesy of me. GAH.

Actually (moment of lucidity), it's just that he's done with the M, and is trying to find a way to extricate himself that's most advantageous to the kids. None of the rest of it matters.

I may be a bit dense today Mrs. V but I'm having trouble following your latest posts.

Help me understand what is happening right now with you.

Is your BH pushing you to back to medical school and you think he is doing that for the reasons you stated in your post (ie. so he can get out of his line of work and get you into a career so he doesn't looke like he is abandoning the kids later on down the line)?

At the same time, you think your BH is looking for the best way to end the M right now?

I'm not folliwng you well today Mrs. V.....

As for this, sure your children are going to be hurt and disppointed in what you have done but they will also see a mother/woman that is owning her mistakes and trying to make them right. That is a good example to set for them. You will earn their forgiveness by doing your best moving forward and ensuring that you NEVER make this mistake again. Teach them how to be repentant for your mistakes. Show them contrition and humility. Very important lessons to learn.

Eh, pretty sure it's my fault my posts are difficult to follow. Imagine what my BH has to deal with!

Our original plan (both pre-A and following D-day) was for me to stay home, BH to be the breadwinner. BH has grown increasingly unhappy with his work, and I think he also feels that I get to coast - maybe not in a resentful way, but definitely where I get the better end of the deal than he does.

An aside - but a relevant one, I think - is that I am a homemaker and not much else right now. I have not picked up any outside commitments (volunteer, employment, organizations, etc.), and I don't push myself intellectually and/or physically. I have all of the capability to do those things, and BH sees that as being squandered.

He is not so much pushing me back to medical school as trying to re-negotiate the terms of the relationship going forward. (Like POJA, right? If there's no longer bilateral enthusiastic agreement, figure out a way to fix it.) As many have pointed out, some just can't move past the infidelity. I think BH is one of those. I think being tied to me, and me being "dead weight," is a contributing factor to his feeling of sacrificing everything - and HE isn't the one who screwed up here!

He has said that me doing something - medical school, PhD, something is for those reasons I stated a few posts ago: so I can care for myself and/or the kids as needed, so he can feel more free to pursue other careers, etc.

I honestly don't know what his ideas are about the best way to end the M. I don't ask. Shortly after D-day, he said he thinks this would work, that we'll save the relationship. Then it became 18 years, until the kids left the house. Then it became mmmmaaaaaybe, but more than likely not, 18 years. Then no years. Now...I don't know. 3 years = 'til I'm done with medical school? 6-10 years = 'til I'm done with residency? 18 years again? More? Less?

I stopped asking because I'm trying (sometimes more successfully than others) to operate with no expectations and to assume the worst. That way it's easier to handle when the worst is actually what happens.

Sorry, I am all over the place today, aren't I? I suppose it's overdue - I haven't subjected y'all to anything overtly emotional whackjob-y lately.

No, that's my job.

But I'd like to ask you some questions, if it's okay (related to your opinion on your situation and mine)...not here...unless you want your thread to blow up. Do you have email? I don't know the MB board protocol on this???

Alternatively, I can post it here but...maybe you'd prefer to review it first. Everything I write seems to be problematic to the MB lifestyle; I am not intending to cause an uproar.

Are you doing the MB basics Mrs. V? Do you know your BH's top EN's? Do you know exactly how he likes to have them met? Are you doing everything you can to meet them? If FS is one of his top EN's then you will need to figure out a way to help bring money into the household. Are you getting in your 15 hours minimum of UA time?

It sounds like your BH is stuck in a rut. He's been betrayed by the person that was supposed to care for him most. He is unhappy with work. It's easy as a BS to get resentful as these things in your life pile up.

Is your BH at all interested in the MB program?

fm, go right ahead here. Let the fun commence!

mindshare, we've actually counseled w/ Steve. My BH is the one who directed me to this site shortly after D-day. We go on date nights every week, we spend several hours together each day after the kids go to bed, we've done the ENQ...

I think I can pinpoint my LBers "against" him - squandering my abilities, not working out (not that I'm in terrible shape, just not as good as I could be)... I don't think FS is one of his ENs so much as it's freedom for him. (In fact, he said as much - this is about the only way he sees freedom for himself.)

Even given those LBers, though, and balancing those w/ the EN meeting we do do, I think this is a case of his LB$ being mostly closed to my deposits.

*Sigh.* I understand. I'm doing a better job not complaining (because, after all, I brought this on myself and he never even asked for it). Obviously still not great yet.



This is why I originally asked about a 2-year mark/experience. We are both at the point of more frequent depression/unrest, and not sure how to break out of it. I think for him the answer is freedom from the M/from me. I think for me the answer is 100% commitment to the M/from him. Certainly two mutually exclusive resolutions, that's for sure.

So has he said this or is this just your putting thoughts into his head and words into his mouth?

The first year of recovery pretty much sucks pond water through a collapsed straw. The next year stabilizes a bit and the lows become a little less low though the highs aren't always as high. If the first year is like being bipolar, the second year is like being bipolar and on meds for it.

Also at some point around the 1 year mark, maybe related to the antiversary of D-day but not always related to that, other things come along to cause resentment and if the BS feels safe to vent again, a lot of that comes out in the next few months. Since the time-line for every recovery is a little different, this might be around the 18 month mark for some while it comes as early as six months for others. It depends on when the BS feels safe enough to let it go rather than trying to maintain the peace at any cost.

Also realize that once the affair is dealt with and the fall out from that has been cleared up, most of the time the problems of still having to actually live together and seek ways to become and remain compatible are still there. It is when the actual push to have a new marriage takes place. Again, for some this can happen in the second year and for others it happens later.

You see, after an affair so much of what we think about and work on has been affair related for so long that we can miss the fact that there will still be conflict along the way. Conflict is how we change and grow as individuals and as a couple. The fact that we have conflict is not a bad thing. What can make that conflict bad is how we strive to resolve it.

The farther out from the affair we get, the more likely it is that the problems are not really the result of the affair at all. We all tend to go through the hysterical bonding period and the 6 month or so AO from the BS stage. We then find new ways to actually work on some of the problems that came from the affair and others that led to it and by the end of two years, we usually start to no longer define ourselves in terms of the affair.

But we still have issues, some predating the affair and others that come along after it. It doesn't help either WS or BS that both tend to look as things as BD and AD, before Dday and After Dday.

If you look at Frank Gunzburg's three phases of recovery from an affair you will see that the first is individual healing. This is where you both work to overcome hurts and guilt for what happened before the affair and during the affair.

The second phase is when you heal together as a couple. For some this comes quickly while for others it can be delayed due to lack of healing by one or the other and by outside factors that can pile on top of an already difficult situation and make it harder to work together as a couple.

The third phase, which usually doesn't really happen until around the two year mark for most is when a new marriage is negotiated and built. This is where we find out what we REALLY want from each other and what it will REALLY take for both of us to be happy.

It is in phase 3 that we find out if we can really work together because the fire is out, we have both healed from our wounds and have come up with a basic agreement to work together. But NOW is when we have to decide on colors and styles, who will do what and when they will do it and what a new marriage is actually going to look like.

This is also when things that went unresolved before the affair show back up because they are still unresolved and they still have to be dealt with to have a happy marriage. It's when we have to put POJA into practice and when we find out if we really want our spouse to be radically honest with us or if we'd prefer that they blow smoke up out butts and pretend that they are happy.

One more thing to keep in mind is that needs, emotional and physical can change over time. Much of what we need at any moment in time is circumstantial. What we NEED most is what we don't have or what we feel is most missing. When I first looked at the ENQ during Plan A, my top EN was Openness and Honesty. It was so much my top need that just about everything else failed to even show up. If I could just get honesty, then I really didn't even want anything else.

About three months into recovery, my top EN was still Honesty, but a close #2 was SF. By about 6 months, we had done the hysterical bonding thing and SF had slipped down to #5 and RC was my number 1 and honesty was #2.

Today I would have to say that SF, RC and Physical Attractiveness are likely my top three with Openness and Honesty not even in the top five. In our house we have this dilemma though because my wife has listed FS as her top EN all along, since the very first time we filled out the ENQ together. It still ranks number one on her list and my job now pays even less than it did before because I seldom work overtime.

Yet when I worked a job that paid me MUCH better than what I have worked for the last twenty years, she learned to become independent in her actions and lifestyle. It was that independence that helped her to have the affair and it was her wanting to do whatever she felt like doing at any given time that was the greatest cause of stress in our marriage for the last twenty years.

And of course, the number one Love Buster on my list, that she still tends to accomplish just about weekly without any thought involved at all is IB and the top Love Buster from me to her remains AOs, which I sometimes think really begin as DJs but her response being resistive rather than reinforcing causes my anger to rise and nothing makes me quite as angry as her doing things of the IB nature as if I don't exist and wondering why I should be angry since her intent was not to hurt me but simply to not trouble me with the details of her life. We're workin' on that, yanno...

But after the affair has been handled and the consequences of the affair have been accepted and we learn to give and get again, we still have to find a way to make the whole marriage thing work for us as individuals and as a couple.

I'm done rambling for now...

Time to go home.

Mark

Thanks for throwing in your input, Mark. You brought up a lot of great points, especially about healing as a couple and renegotiating a new marriage.

This is particularly true for us, and I don't know how it will ever change:


The problem I have now is that your post has given me hope, and hope is not my friend! I also wonder if it's cruel of me to keep pushing my BH with this recovery stuff. I think he is much more at peace now that I've stopped resisting his suggestions to change the ideal. Withdrawal is his friend. (Those are my words, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am...)

There was a window of time where he was trying to renegotiate the terms of the M, and I viewed everything as a very visceral threat to both me and the M I thought we were pursuing/my ideal M. Problem is my reactions to that (refusal to entertain anything that could open a door for him to boot me out of the M, so to speak) caused some pretty serious LB$ withdrawals, and I think my account is closed for good.

Now that I understand our M stood a better chance with that renegotiation, well, I think it's too late.

I want to discuss this post with him. And maybe we should revisit the ENQ - haven't done that in quite some time. Also need to check what mindshare suggested, re: how ENs are met, not just which ones are met.

Oh, and this:


Those are my words to explain what I felt like to him, and his words to confirm it.

Good morning, Vanilla. My intent was not to turn this into a "Shut-FM-Up-Cause-She-Doesn't-Know-What-She-Is-Talking-About" T/J (I think I've had about 3 of those and I "get it" that I should not ask questions/say much of anything on other threads.) I'll opt not to turn your thread into a circus.

My questions were related to your decision to go to school and your DH emotional progress since your D-Day in 2008...but I will just follow along and see how it turns out for you.

I truly hope that your D is not inevitable because you don't deserve that. It seems that you have humbled yourself and deeply committed yourself to the MB lifestyle and I hope it works to save your M. Good luck!

Every WS "deserves" a divorce. Any chance that they are given to stay in the marriage is a gift from he BS which they do not deserve.

The deserve a divorce because they broke the marriage through adultery. At the moment they committed the act of adultery, they knew that a possible result was divorce. the BS has every right to divorce, legally, spiritually (in God's eyes) and emotionally.

I too hope that Mrs_V's marriage recovers. I think she is working hard to compensate her H and is repentant for what she has done. She is here asking questions about the way forward because she wants her H to love her and be happy with her again. I would like to see their marriage recover. If I didn't believe in post-affair recovery I wouldn't be in my own marriage today, nor posting on this website.

But every WS "deserves" a divorce. That is what they risked by committing adultery. If they are given a chance at recovery, then they are given a tremendous gift by the BS that they do not deserve.

Excellent post Sugar. Right on the money.

I too agree that Mrs. V is trying to do the things needed to recover the marriage. Sometimes, it's just not enough. Some BS's will never find enough just compensation to risk getting hurt again. It's one of those major life events that some people just can't get past.

I hope for Mrs. V that is not the case and that her and her BH can find a way out of the darkness that is adultery.

At an old job many years ago we had a poster on the wall that said...


The idea of a second chance is one that gets kicked around a lot in our world these days. It is said that everybody DESERVES a second chance.

But that isn't true. If I kill someone in anger, do I deserve a second chance to live my life without consequences of my choice to end someone's life?

The thing about an affair is that it basically ends the marital agreement at the moment the choice is made. It violates the terms of the contract, if you will, and the marriage at that moment is over. What I find interesting is that for many at the time of the affair that was in fact their intent, to dissolve the marital union and begin a new marriage with the affair partner. It isn't usually a commitment to the marriage that keeps the cheater in the marriage as much as the fear of the unknown and if the AP shows themselves to be less than the fantasy partner they were thought to be based on the infatuation of the affair, then the marriage is there to fall back on.

But for the BS, the marriage was done when the vows were broken. They are no longer required to continue fulfilling their vows because the agreement is over at that point.

And yet some DO decide to reinvest in the marriage and try to repair the damage done to the relationship by the betrayal. They actually offer a second chance. But a second chance is not what is deserved, it is not "justice" but "grace" that allows that to happen.

This is the way God works as well. He gives us grace as an alternative to what we deserve. He offers a second chance as opposed to justice. It is what we do with that offer that matters most and this is where the idea of repentance comes into the discussion.

Repentance isn't just a change in what we do, either. It is a change in the way we think. It is no longer thinking that I have the right to decide right and wrong issues for myself and that, in the case of a marriage, my vows are what is right and therefor nothing that negates my keeping those vows can be right.

Real repentance is marked by a brokenness that overcomes self justification. It takes the place of defense of position and admits that not only what I did was wrong, but the idea of my thinking that what I did might have been right was wrong as well.

The word repent, literally means to rethink or more to the point for most, to have a new way of thinking. It is because I know longer think the way I do that my actions change and not just a matter of willing myself to abandon my old actions for new ones. My choices change because my values change and not simply because I fear the consequences of my choices if I continue.

This is the basis for acceptance of grace that is offered, yet it is not what triggers grace to occur. The grace is given without regard to merit and if accepted can lead to a second chance. But there is nothing anyone who has chosen to do what is wrong can do to make grace appear and there is no requirement that anyone, God included, give grace as the reward for specific actions on our part.

We all get either what we have earned, or we get what is paid to us. When it comes to even a repentant FWS, any offer of a second chance is unearned wages. What we have earned in that case is to be sent away with nothing because anything earned up to that point was discarded by the betrayal of the vows or marriage. What is done to make compensation is the earning of the grace given but not what makes it to be offered. We pay it back after the fact with what we do to earn it and not earn it first by ending our bad behavior.

No longer doing what is wrong does not earn a second chance. Doing what is right can only demonstrate our gratitude for that second chance if it is given to us. In the case of a BS, that offer is usually contingent upon many factors, one of them likely what is given in return and this is when the grace is earned. If the payback is not sufficient for the second chance, then the offer can be removed from the table at any time.

Just my nickel because two cents won't get you much these days.

And probably worth what I'm being paid for it and not a penny more...

Mark

Agreed, well put, SC.

All too often, people (myself included - it took me a while to overcome those feelings of "but I'm trying so hard - why isn't this just working??") look at effort as a measure of reward.

My family, for example, is pretty much estranged from my BH now. Why? Because they think "Oh, she's trying so hard - why isn't he just getting over it??" Yet they are patient, they are too understanding/sympathetic with me and my role in this. How does my BH deserve that?

fm, it's a subtle but dangerous way of entitled thinking, and it leaves no room for much-needed empathy. Those are the precise conditions that contribute to affairs.

On another note, fm, I posted in all seriousness to you earlier on this thread. If you have questions, go ahead and ask. Maybe we'll both learn something!

And: SC, mindshare - thanks for the support.

Excellent points, Mark! Not always an easy place to reach, but this exactly what has to happen. For those of you reading along at home, or for those like myself who can't always articulate well, this is the beginning of "getting it" and earning your F.


Mark, do you have this or some version of it in Pep's Notables? I am hereby nominating.

Thank you for posting that, Mark, (and for kicking it off, SC). It helps me keep my focus and remove my emotional whackjob hat.

Have you stepped in to defend your BH with your family? If not, you certainly should. Have you explained to them how painful this betrayal can be? Have you told them that the pain can be worse then the death of a child or rape? It seems that your family does not comprehend the level of pain adultery brings about. Perhaps it's time that you educate them and at the same time, defend your BH.

You are showing much awareness Mrs. V. Nice response back to FM. Keep up this work.

I've actually addressed this with them several times, mindshare. The message is a bit muddled in the delivery*, I think, but the larger problem is they just don't seem to (want to?) grasp the enormity of such betrayal. They would prefer to acknowledge that it happened, it was a bad thing, but let's all move forward now and fix it. At this point, there is so much damage to the relationships that I don't think there will be any closeness again.

I come from "not very good at communicating and emotional coping" stock. (As anyone who has followed my thread knows - I certainly fit that description!)



*I went to my family's straight after D-day, and they were witness to a number of emotional calls between DH and I, they talked with DH while he was in a lot of pain (too much pain and anger for them to handle, as they've said), my tendency towards tears and extreme guilt (in a not-helpful, victimizing way)... So none of that helps.

This is not uncommon at all Mrs. V. People who have not experienced adultery first hand often have no comprehension of just how painful it is. They think you should just get over it. Sweep it under the rug. Move on for the good of the family, etc.

Unforunately, this can be another contributing factor to the overall state of your M and your BH's withdrawal. Now, on top of the betrayal your BH has to deal with in-laws that are not supportive of him and, now there seems to be a family rift developing. This just adds on to the overall sense of loss due to the betrayal.

I think you need to find a way to get your family to understand the situation and the pain your BH is going through and be supportive or to stay completely out of the picture and leave the two of you alone in your recovery.

Agreed about the contributing factor. And he says he doesn't care what they think anymore, yet he does bring it up with some frequency when discussing these big issues.

I have done what I think is my best with addressing this with my family. The ball is in their court, so to speak, and I think DH and I agree on this. The poor communication works to our advantage in this, and no family member is actively bringing up anything about recovery, how things are going, etc. Our contact with them is a brief phone call every couple of weeks between myself and them just to touch base about non-A-related things.

It's not limited to my family, unfortunately. However, much more understandably, DH's siblings would prefer he completely D'd me and got on with his life. I can't blame them.

I did make the (huge) mistake at one point of asking DH if I didn't exist to them - which was an extremely poor choice of words to describe what used to go on in my mind a lot (to which anyone who has read my thread can attest): that is, casting about for any ways to make the situation better, more bearable, something that could help the M recover.

As DH pointed out, it was more than completely insensitive and suggested that I didn't really "get it" at all.

Desperation. I've pretty much given up on that now. Can't control other people, doesn't make sense frittering away time and energy on that.

Sooooo, I suppose it's update time. I've put this off because of these:

But! We POJA'd! And so. Let the update commence.

*DH and I went back and forth, up, down, and all around over this "what are we doing with the rest of our lives" stuff. We finally both agreed that medical school for me was our most viable option - one that met a lot of criteria that became more evident in their importance as our discussions progressed.

*We entered into the med school decision on a trial basis. We'll give it a few weeks, see how it goes. We were pretty sure it was a done deal.

*Then the few weeks happened. Hoooo boy, he and I were both wrong in how we factored the kids and the stress on home life into this. The kids are SENS.I.TIVE. And I'm a bit of a "stress bunny," as DH likes to say. So even my efforts to control my stress/anxiety were insufficient to keep it from seeping into family life.

*Evenings weren't so relaxing anymore. I was busy running around trying to take care of meals, cleaning, time with DH (which was sorely compromised), sleep... Not enough hours in the day.

*Time with the kids was drastically different - reduced in duration and, more significantly, in quality.

A few nanny glitches added in, and DH and I decided it just wasn't worth it. We'll figure out the "rest of our life" stuff without medical school right now. Maybe he and I will both go at some point, maybe I won't ever go back. Right now, though, we are settling back into me being a homemaker - and it is muuuuuch nicer for all of us.

The house is peaceful. It feelss like a home. The frenetic stress bunny and impact on our relationship, the kids, and the home were far worse tradeoffs than me continuing to stay home for now and us exploring other "rest of our life" options.

So that's where we are. He mentioned the other day that at the beginning of summer (maybe around when I switched this topic to "I think it's over"?) he was certain that a divorce was the only way to go, he would finance the kids while I got a career education, that was the only path to freedom and happiness for him... And then he referred to the present, our relationship in the context of it being unstable and not able to sustain the damage medical school's stress would throw at it... I'm trying not to be too positive, but ?

Hi Mrs V!

Seen you around here and there. Was curious to see how you and your BH are doing? You've always struck me as one of the FWW's that really gets it and I am so hoping that you and your BH can eventually figure things out and make it work.

I'm definitely pulling for you and your family.

for what?

You saw med school not working so you find a new choice. Evidently your BH makes good money. So go school part time. So it takes ten years to get a BS (degree, you already have a non degree BS ) and start a career when the kids are old enough to not need a mom 24/7.

Thanks for checking in, y'all!

Not really a whole lot to report. We've passed the two year mark, and things are leveling out. Still some highs, still some lows. (Now that I think about it, not as much A-related as just me improving at meeting DH's needs in ways he wants them met. Certainly the A makes the errors worse, but that's expected). All par for the course, I suspect.

I'm operating with no expectations, I guess, and we're just keeping our heads down and getting through this. I, too, hope DH and I make it out of this with a good M. Time will tell.

Thanks for the cheering section, mindshare! How are things with your situation?

Sounds like you are doing ok Mrs V. I hope that at some point you can get your BH to consider some MB in your marriage. Maybe you can find a way to get him involved in very small ways for starters? Any chance of that?

Don't want to t/j on you but you asked so I will answer. The D train left the station a long time ago in my sitch. Complicated financial sitch is prolonging my day of true freedom. F?WW is still in the fog and will probably spend her remaining days there. Just want the train to make it to the final stop so I can use my new found MB knowledge in a new relationship in the future. Thanks for asking Mrs V.

I'm sorry to hear about the D, mindshare. Obviously, I have a very great interest in marriages recovering from infidelity (especially when the wife was the adulterer), and we all know how rough it is when the path we thought our lives were headed is all of a sudden rewritten.

The great thing about MB is that it works whether you're M'd or not. You'll always get something out of it you can take with you.

I want to dispel any misconceptions: DH is amazingly involved given all that I put him through. While he doesn't post on MB, he occasionally reads, and he is well-versed in the concepts. Now that we have a language for all of this relationship stuff, it's easier to pay attention and communicate about it as needed.

I think I mentioned earlier that he bought me counseling for us with the Harleys for my birthday after D-day?

I catch myself even now, and have to remind myself that just because other people recover doesn't mean we will. Or that our recovery will look exactly like someone else's. Or that we'll do it faster or slower or whatever. Each one is different. If I start getting my expectations up about our recovery, that there will even be a marital recovery, how I think it should go, what I want right now from it, then I'm doing my DH a huge disservice (to put it mildly) - I'm still the perpetrator, and me pushing my recovery agenda on him isn't going to do either of us any good.

No, not an epic update-y post. Just needed to change the subject w/in this thread!

Thanks for this Mrs V. You are absolutely correct!

Not all M's can or should be saved. I'm at peace with my decision.

Wow Mrs V! This is really cool. I must have missed this post. I was under the impression your BH was not really into the whole MB thing. I'm glad to hear that he is open to the concepts. You are so correct that having a common lingo that you both understand is so helpful!

Sounds like you guys are doing pretty well.

Recovery takes patience. Sounds like you've figured that out already. Keep plugging away....