At the suggestion of Dr. Bill Harley on his radio show, I exposed a third time last week. The response from my WW was severe. Now I wonder whether I did the right thing.
I exposed to seven more people -- the OM's mother, brother, sister in law, and close friend as well as two of my WW's siblings, and a mutual friend. My WW was furious. First, she cursed me out, called me "controlling," said I made her look like a whore, and said we would be divorced by October (a year after she moved out). Second, she said I was no longer welcome in her home; that we would meet at a restaurant to exhange our kids on one day of the week (she didn't say about the other day of the week); that I would hear from her lawyer with a few weeks; and that if I exposed again, she will file a restraining order against me.
I heard from my sister in law. She said two things: I am to blame for my WW moving out and my WW and I should repair our relationship without the help of others.
I also heard from the OM. He said I am obsessed, privileged, and an emotional reck. (He should talk!)
I am shook up. I wonder whether I helped torpedo my marriage. As late as last weekend, she wanted to go with me to our oldest DD's sports practice. Yet I know my WW spends two nights a week at the OM's house and that our feelings are poor guides to breaking up an A.
Did the rock affair boat hard but not smart?
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Me: BH, 39 and jobless Her: WW, 33 2 young DD's EA exposed: Fall '08 WW moved out: Fall '09 D-day 01/22/10 Exposed to WW's and OM's boss; OM' soon to be ex wife; WW's parents, 3 of WW's close friends, 2 of OM's friend; and OM's mother, brother, and sister in law In Plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation since 05/10
The bigger her reaction, the more damage you caused to the affair. Though it's hard to take, the venom she's spewing right now is the blood draining out of the affair. Good job!!
Your side of the family, her side of the family, ALL your friends, hers and yours, her employer and fellow employees........my God man.........everyone
You did a GREAT thing, MJ!!! The stronger the angry reaction of the wayward the more you know that your actions were dead on right!!! That tells you that exposure is working it's magic - Surely you weren't expecting an addict to thank you for taking away their crack at first, right? The point of exposure is to shake the affair and kill it - OF COURSE the addict is gonna scream bloody murder when their addiction is threatened - that is just simple logic...If the wayward didn't scream, make threats and get angry then you'd know that your actions didn't hit their mark...
Rest easy MJ, you did the right thing! That is not to say that exposure is guaranteed to end the affair, but it IS the best shot you've got...Her anger will blow over and you have done irreparable damage to the affair - GOOD JOB!!! Affairs thrive on secrecy and you have removed that - STAND STRONG AND PROUD!!! Without killing the affair your marriage had NO CHANCE - there is no marriage to save as long as the affair continues - NOW there is a chance...
Just batten down the hatches and stay the course...
You should have looked at her innocently and said "Why, honey, if you think your A is so great, I thought you would want everyone to know your good news!"
Been a long time since I've been there, but I found that anger is the only defense a guilty conscience can muster. I agree with full exposure as opposed to trickling. Get it done, like pulling tape of your skin.
Thanks everyone. I appreciate your advice and encouragement.
I'm done with exposure. I've exposed to 12 people over the last six months, including all the people who could save my marriage and family. Trickling the exposure out will only be counter productive, as many of you say. Also, Dr. Bill Harley endorsed my third exposure only after learning that I had not told the OM's family members.
Any idea when my WW's anger blows off and she starts reconciling? Forcing me to meet at a local restaurant to pick up our kids underlines her fury.
My WW was furious. First, she cursed me out, called me "controlling," said I made her look like a whore,
A couple things I wanted to point out to you, MJ...
1. Don't you find it funny that she calls YOU "controlling" - Yet she is the one that is having the affair which equals~~~> making decisions about your life without your input? Now WHO is the controlling one again?
2. It's your actions that are making her look like a whore? REALLY? Has nothing to do with her being married and sleeping with someone else?
It they weren't destroying so many lives, the rants of waywards would really be hilarious - logic and waywards are clearly not pals...
Any idea when my WW's anger blows off and she starts reconciling? Forcing me to meet at a local restaurant to pick up our kids underlines her fury.
MJ, don't sweat her anger, REALLY...I know it's hard to believe, but if she becomes a real FWW she will one day THANK YOU for exposing and helping her kick her addiction - I speak from experience, I am a FWW - We are 5 years from dday and fully recovered - I STILL thank Mr. W and my mom for their efforts in ending my affair - They are HEROES that loved me enough to take a stand against the evil I brought to our family...
Also, I presume her house is an "affair lair" right now - Be THANKFUL that you don't have to go there!
if she becomes a real FWW she will one day THANK YOU for exposing and helping her kick her addiction
<--FWW
I constantly tell my husband thank you for exposing my A, if he didn't we would be in the same mess we were in 9 months ago. Me chatting with guys online, texting, sending them dirty pix, and me very unhappy.
Thank you, Mrs. Wondering and Sapphire Returns. Your messages give me hope for the reconciliation of my marriage and reunification of my family, two things that I see now matter more to me than anything else.
I still think I did the right thing exposing, even if it was a third time. Confirming that she sleeps at his place two nights a week while I take care of our kids was the last straw. I couldn't enable her anymore. However, I wonder about my WW's statement before the exposure that she would like to attend our young daughter's sports practice. Was this just a crumb she was throwing me?
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Me: BH, 39 Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
Thank you, Mrs. Wondering and Sapphire Returns. Your messages give me hope for the reconciliation of my marriage and reunification of my family, two things that I see now matter more to me than anything else.
I still think I did the right thing exposing, even if it was a third time. Confirming that she sleeps at his place two nights a week while I take care of our kids was the last straw. I couldn't enable her anymore. However, I wonder about my WW's statement before the exposure that she would like to attend our young daughter's sports practice. Was this just a crumb she was throwing me?
----
Me: BH, 39 Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
Yes, MJ, a crumb...Ideally the addicted wayward would like to have BOTH the OP and their spouse - totally sick, twisted and wrong...
You've done the BEST thing you could do for your family! You were right that enabling her was NOT good...Rest assured, MJ, you are a good man, fighting the good fight!
However, I wonder about my WW's statement before the exposure that she would like to attend our young daughter's sports practice. Was this just a crumb she was throwing me?
Well, yeah, it was a crumb from the cake she's eating. Sorry. But! I think a little bit of hope comes with that crumb. Somewhere in that addled mess of a WW is your wife and the mother of your children. Do this right and you'll hopefully get her back.
I am shook up. I wonder whether I helped torpedo my marriage. As late as last weekend, she wanted to go with me to our oldest DD's sports practice. Yet I know my WW spends two nights a week at the OM's house and that our feelings are poor guides to breaking up an A.
That sounds great!! Good job! The madder the infidels, the greater the damage to the affair.
The biggest concern I have is that you don't LAUGH when she spits and sputters at you for exposing her affair. It is hard not to laugh when they start spouting the insane fogbabbles. If you feel a laugh coming on, just leave the room.
Thank you again Mrs Wondering, marital bliss, and Melody Lane. Your support means a lot to me.
And I need all I can get. I live alone in a new apartment and wished I had cherished my wife and daughters like they deserve. I recognize that my WW made her own choice and that I am doing everything within reason to save my family. But I still feel guilty for putting my career ahead of them and masturbating once a month to porn. Your support offers me a bit of absolution and a fair amount of hope.
One other thing: my sister IL responded to my email message. She blamed me for my WW's move out. She also said nothing about my WW's A. Her main response was that I need to respect my wife. She is close to my WW. Would replying to my sister IL be counter productive?
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Me: BH, 39 Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
I think if I responded I would do so with only one question:
"When is adultery ever right?"
MJ, you and I both know that the answer to that question is NEVER - I don't think it will change your SIL, but MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, it will cause her to think about this further...
REGARDLESS...
Don't let your SIL's earlier response throw you - Exposure was absolutely the right choice - The goal was to remove the secrecy of the affair, and that has been done - Now you sit back and allow exposure to work it's magic - Make no mistake about it, the affair has FOR SURE suffered damage as a result...Be proud of that...
Do you by chance live in a state where alienation of affection laws apply? Even if not, I would make sure to contact OM and let him know that he WILL be named in the divorce papers - and will be called for a deposition - Make your WW too much trouble for him!
My WW lives in a state where adultery is tied to alimony payments. I like the sentiment behind telling the OM that he will be named in divorce papers: make the A tough for him. However, my WW might get the idea that we're headed toward divorce. What do you think?
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
One other thought: I wonder if the OM is sleeping at my WW's apartment with our two DD's. My three year old was upset two different times the other day. She mentioned the name of the OM and said he slept at mommy's. She added that the OM touched her in the legs. I don't know what to believe. My three year old also said that other people, including me, sleep at mommy's.
Suppose the OM is sleeping at my WW's. Could I file a restraining order against him?
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
My WW lives in a state where adultery is tied to alimony payments. I like the sentiment behind telling the OM that he will be named in divorce papers: make the A tough for him. However, my WW might get the idea that we're headed toward divorce. What do you think?
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
Thanks for your concern. First of all, I exposed to the OM's family and friends. Exposing anymore won't help. Second, I don't know if the OM sleeps at my WW's apartment. I plan to check soon. Seeing the pained expression on my DD's three-year-old face haunts me. As for filing for legal separation, I am avoiding the legal route as of now.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
Here is a general question: How do you attempt to meet your WP's needs a week or so after exposure?
My WW is so mad at me, to the point that she refused to say hello or goodbye to me the other day when she picked up our kids, that calling her on the phone strikes me as unlikely to please her. All Dr. Harley seems to talk about is that during Plan A you should not commit love busters. Which is what I'm doing, but meeting her needs at a time when she hates my guts is damn difficult.
--------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
One other thought: I wonder if the OM is sleeping at my WW's apartment with our two DD's. My three year old was upset two different times the other day. She mentioned the name of the OM and said he slept at mommy's. She added that the OM touched her in the legs. I don't know what to believe. My three year old also said that other people, including me, sleep at mommy's.
Suppose the OM is sleeping at my WW's. Could I file a restraining order against him?
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
~emphasis mine
MJ!!!
Before I address anything else you've said, I MUST address the above - YOU MUST ACT TODAY!!!!!! This is GRAVELY SERIOUS - Your 3 year old DD is in SERIOUS DANGER and YOU are the only sane parent and PROTECTOR that she has!!!
IMO, you call the POLICE - TODAY and let them handle this - You MUST take your DD3 SERIOUSLY about what she has said about OM touching her - PLEASE!!!
I have asked my daughters, Neak and Neaksis, to post to you. We have a very unfortunate and intimate knowledge with the lingering traumas suffered by children who have been molested. I'm going to say this: Do not ask your daughter any more questions. You don't want what she says to be considered "tainted" by your alleged input. Nor do you need to give your WW any ammunition to use against you for "making up" allegations of abuse, just to spoil her true love. However, you should call immediately and get an appointment with whoever does this sort of questioning at your local police department. If it's a decent-sized department, they will use dolls, etc. and attempt to get her to give them direct statements. You do NOT want her to say, "Daddy told me to tell you..." You will also not be allowed in the room during the questioning. There should be a woman trained to do the questioning, but I can't guarantee this.
Someone needs to know what kind of touching this was, where it was, etc. You are NOT the one to ask this, if you want any legal protection for you, or consequences for him. Is your other daughter older? If she is, they will probably also want to question her daughter, too. Do. Not. Delay. Your wife would not be the first woman who was courted by a child molester in order to gain access to her children. Take your hand off the mouse. Leave the computer. Make the call. We'll still be here when you get back.
Did your daughter just come up with this out of the blue? Did you ask her any leading questions before she said that, like, "did OM touch you anywhere?" This is important, because while you DEFINITELY want to get the police involved if she came up with this on her own, getting them involved because you asked her a leading question may make her account (and yours) suspect. Having a BIL who was falsely accused of child sexual abuse and watching his life ruined, makes me automatically step back and MAKE SURE that opening THAT can of worms is the right thing to do.
Did she say anything more about WHERE he touched her legs? How he did it?
Don't get me wrong, any OM is scum and he should NOT be around your daughter in the first place, giving him or any OM an opportunity to abuse your child, but please investigate this more before you call in the calvary.
Forget what I said, TL gave you the BEST advice as she speaks from experience on how to deal with this.
Whatever you do, you DO want to get to a lawyer and get an injunction in place that prohibits your WW from having any overnight male guests while your daughter is present. This is a reasonable request and Judges order this every day. Better SAFE than SORRY!
Someone needs to know what kind of touching this was, where it was, etc.
There's touching and there's "touching". There are legs, and there are "legs." This is why the police professional needs to find out knees vs. crotch, touch vs. rubbing. Dolls let the child show by action without having to say it as a narrative.
When our situation blew up, Neaksis' adopted daughter, the primary molestee by her bio-mom's drug dealer boyfriend, and the original molester of the other children, had been so conditioned to silence that she wouldn't give the investigators any information. Bear in mind that by the time this came to light, she'd been molested for up to 3 years, if I'm not mistaken. So the habit of secrecy was deeply-ingrained, as was her sense of shame. And she clammed up like a, well, like a clam when they took her away to ask her questions. However, she would randomly and spontaneously give bits of information to Neaksis, at that time her "babysitter".
I think it was at the 2nd attempt at questioning that I compiled a list of her disclosures and gave it to the detectives, so they would know what had been said and what they might question her about. The detective accused me of "ruining" her case by priming the pump, so to speak. And they never really pursued it after that. To the best of my knowledge, they never even questioned the man who molested at least 2 of Neaksis' adoptees, and possibly the 3rd, although his abuse was primarily psychological and physically violent. The children were taken away from their mom. Both parents' parental rights were legally revoked, and Neaksis ended up adopting them. But because they decided I had "ruined" the case by talking to her, even though it was Val--without prompting--talking to us, Mr. Perp got away without even a tap on the wrist. 8 years later, that still majorly chafes my hide and probably always will.
Let me tell you something. If abuse has begun, even if this leg touching is only the "grooming" stage, the longer it goes on, the harder it will be for the child to recover from it. Yes, people make false accusations. Your WW will doubtless accuse you of this very thing. This is why you need to follow the legal process explicitly, if you want them to protect you.
What made you ask her this? Did you bring up the subject or was there something she said that triggered your suspicion? The next questions, if any, should be asked by police professionals. And before she's re-exposed to OM.
She woke up from her nap upset. I asked what was bothering her. She mentioned the name of the OM. I asked her if he had done anything to her. She said something about her back. Then I asked her the questions above: "Did he touch you?" etc.
I don't know what to make of her answers. I will talk with the police tonight. If they say to pursue the matter, I plan to bring my DD3 in to them.
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
One unrelated question: What to do when a WS wants you to take care of the kids a night early?
I'm in Plan A, so I accommodated her request. She said she has a special work banquet to go to. But I'm wary, as three weeks ago I found out that she spent the two nights I have the kids over at the OM's house.
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
At this point, you need to NOT be about saving your marriage, and everything about finding out what's happening to your daughter. Until you see the police and, I hope, find out a little about what's going on, I would agree to any and every request that she has for you to take the girls. What she does while you have them is a minor detail. Every minute they're with you, they are NOT in any danger of being around him.
First things first, OK? Here's a link to another thread from awhile back. This man's daughter was 13, but the OM used the mother as a means of access to the daughter. He did not save his marriage. He did protect his daughter. You may end up having to make the same choice.
My DS23 was molested when he was very young as well. PLEASE DO NOT PUT THIS OFF!! Go have your daughter talk with the police.
I know that it is hard and that it's one of those "can't be happening to me" moments, but PLEASE do not take that chance! The man who molested my son spent 8 years in prison and is now on the sex offenders list so that we can watch where he is. My DS is still affected by the aftershocks periodically and is VERY OVERPROTECTIVE of his own son because he is STILL so scared of this.
Just have it checked out and let us all know! There are some of us here who have experience with this and can help you along the way a little if it comes out to be true...but we ALL CARE!
I'm going to the police tonight. I'll let all of you know how things go.
This afternoon, I am seeing a friend of the boss of my WW and the OM. My hope is that he will talk to the boss and ask him to transfer the OM. (My WW and the OM work together). My friend has eight kids and is a pious Catholic, as is the boss of my WW and the OM. Any advice on what to to tell my friend?
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
An unrelated issue: I moved out last month and received the security deposit that my WW and I made 2.5 years ago. Should I tell my WW about this?
I'm inclined to tell her. After all, dishonesty is a big LB, while honest meets a big EM, especially for women. However, I can't make this month's rent if I give my WW her portion of the deposit. Also, I have been more than generous with her financially during our separation.
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
I'm going to the police tonight. I'll let all of you know how things go.
Tell them upfront that you asked questions. Tell them what your daughter said/did that precipitated those questions in the first place. Tell them you haven't asked any questions since (you haven't, have you?), because you wanted a professional to be able to ask them properly. However, you can report voluntary disclosures, if any have been made.
Dude, why don't you put that important "security deposit question" on the back burner until you talk to the police about the strong possibility that your daughter is getting fondled by the same guy that is also doing your wife?
(If he is or isn't, this can be a VERY good way for the A to end with OM running for his life!!)
You are too tentative, i.e. milquetoast, it sounds like.
I did not go to the police. Why? The short answer is that I am certain the OM hasn't touched my DD3. If he had touched her, she would act differently. She'd withdraw; she'd cry a lot. She doesn't do any of that. She laughs and plays and smiles. She's just upset that I moved to a new place and she didn't see her mommy for three days. However, rest assured that I will continue to ask about my WW and the OM and whether the OM has touched her.
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
By the way, I told my WW about the security deposit. Telling her might not sound like a big deal. But I might well need that money to pay my bills this month. With me out of work for three and a half months, finances are extremely tight.
I'm proud of myself. I was radically honest with my WW. Whether I made any deposits in her love bank is an open question. But I didn't withdraw any. And I am holding my head up high.
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Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
I see that the vets are ignoring my thread. No doubt they are turned off about me not going to the police. I need their advice and help. For the sake of my marriage and DS3, I will go to the police today or tomorrow, be upfront with them about my questions, and see what happens.
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
I see that the vets are ignoring my thread. No doubt they are turned off about me not going to the police. I need their advice and help. For the sake of my marriage and DS3, I will go to the police today or tomorrow, be upfront with them about my questions, and see what happens.
Don't put this off until tomorrow. You need protection for your kids. Your poor kid will face years of problems, and a pretty messed up adulthood, knowing that dad and mom let the OM fondle her/him...You have no excuse to wait.
Have you ever talked to people who were molested as children? They have some pretty messed up views about trust and morals, and have to retrain themselves to know they were victims.
Wheels_spinning, cami, thndrltng, krusht, Stanley, and others,
I talked with a staffer at Child Protective Services of my WW's state today. Some of what he said was mentioned earlier -- I asked leading questions of my DD3. But some of what he said was not.
Here are a few examples:
-- Talk with my WW, preferably in person, about my suspicions and feelings and add that I looked at the state CPS site.
-- Stay calm when talking with my DD3 and ask her general questions about her daily activities rather than specific questions about the OM.
-- My DD3 needs to volunteer that the OM touched her.
I don't look forward to talking with my WW about my feelings and suspicions again. But I need to and will do it.
-----------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
I had a friend whos BF was molesting their DD4. Luckily the DD3 was very open about what would happen and told several people. I don't want to offend anyone, but she would say things like "worm" and "glue". She does not know the real names of these things, and substituted words she did know. This was a very bad case, and I hope that nothing got this bad. (Good thing is the GM has custody now.)
I think they want to make sure you do not lead her. It will be a false testimony if used in court. Im sure the CPS will have good advice on how to get her testimony without leading her.
Thanks Wheels_Spinning for sharing that grim story. I will be on the lookout for words like those.
I talked with my WW about the OM's contact with my kids. At first, she was furious that his name had even been mentioned. Then she said that DD3 and DD1.5 had seen him only a few times. I think she's lying. Last week, DD3 volunteered that she ate with the OM as well as mommy and DD1. ----------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
My question for the day is this: How do I meet my WW's EN for conversation when she's still furious with me for exposing three weeks ago?
I talked with my WW over the phone last night. The conversation was painful. She reiterated that we're getting divorced.
I started our talk by asking about her day and weekend. Then I attempted to negotiate with her about me giving her portion of the security deposit. I thought by doing so I was meeting her EN for honesty and preventing a LB. Instead she turned my honesty around on me.
"Let's acknowledge that you are withholding from me my portion of the deposit." I said I was being honest with and respectful of her. She said, "Don't say you have been respectful of me. You have been anything but for the past three months." In a calm voice, I said that I have been respectful of our marriage, honest with her, and her actions have hurt and devastated me." She said we're getting divorced. After I said "Okay," I asked to talk with our DD's.
I attempted to treat her like a pro. What do others think? Isn't meeting her EN for conversation damn difficult?
Please help. I love my WW. I love our DD's. I want to reconcile with my WW and have a great marriage. And though I have regrets about my failure to heed the advice of the vets, I am proud of my faithfulness to my WW and efforts to slay the dragon of infidelity.
----------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) EA: Fall '08 Move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day 2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice
"Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of infidelity should pass away." -- MJ's take on Lincoln's Second Inaugural.
Has anyone told you about the constant relationship talk and blubbering and whining and constant in your (her) face about what she is doing to you, the kids, etc. is a big turn-off and really not part of plan A.
In fact plan A has alot of "no relationship talk" in it.
There is a plan A-180 (for lack of a better name). In this plan when you see her you acknowledge her existence, nod, and then go about your biz. You smile all the time. You are happy and upbeat, joke with her, but stay kind of aloof, like there are more important things on your mind. If nothing else it might drive her crazy.
Of course being apart is tough to do any kind of plan, except plan B. Which could be an option too.
You have been in plan A for how long?? Since D-day #2?
Her EN for conversation is important, but breaking up the A is the primary concern.
And when you have conversation with her it does not sound like good stimulating conversation. She is surely, crabby, and is picking fights with you at every turn.
So starting the conversation leads to heartache. May want to curtail that for a while.
Usually when a WW is on the fence, cake eating, there are ENs from both boys that are floating her boat.
A plan B, you going dark on her could work. At least it would help you get a little normalcy in your life.
She insists on divorce, but why hasn't she filed already? Is she a Big Tawker??
Gotcha. I'll avoid any indirect talk of our relationship. That's how I messed up last night.
However, I read a long, detailed post on MB about a key stick of Plan A: the BS communicate in a direct, kind way the hurt and devastation that the A is causing. This was in the back of my mind when I talked with my beloved WW last night.
I've been in Plan A since May. I talked with Dr. Bill Harley on his radio show, and besides sending me a free copy of LB, he said I need to go to Plan A.
In fact, he said to pull out all the stops to win her back. Send letters. Give her flowers. And most of all, get a job. (By contrast, the OM has a well-paying job, though two teenagers from his first marriage that he has to support).
My WW does talk a lot. She's threatened to communicate with me only via email and that her lawyer would contact me. Neither has happened.
She hasn't filed because she can't. In her state, she needs to wait one year after separation to file. However, she only has to wait another 3 months, in mid-October, to do so.
----------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I'm looking for perspective. Why am I so blue that my WW plans to take our two DD's on a weeklong vacation with her family to the beach?
I was feeling confident yesterday. I made progress getting a job; got a call from my WW that our DD3 now uses the potty regularly, whiich sounded like the wife I knew and loved once; and thought that whatever happens with our M, I could handle it. Today I feel sad. There is little I want more than relaxing at the beach with my wife (my one and only love bug) and our two beautiful daughters.
... Maybe we men aren't meant to feel strongly.
---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
No way my WW's family would want me there. After I sent my exposure letter to my IL's in January, my father in law said he and my mother in law didn't want to talk with me. Although I was never close emotionally to them, I asked him for his daughter's hand in marriage and went on long day trips with him.
I doubt the OM would be there. My WW is still married to me, and her parents are active Catholics.
Why do you suggest driving to the beach and keeping an eye on them?
I posted the message below on igrip's thread, and will repost it here. Your responses are appreciated!
SDCW_Man wrote,
"By any means available, can you get the OM to dump the WW?"
Do you have tips to get the OM to dump a WW?
The problem, as I see it, is two-fold: getting the OM to dump your WW but retaining the allegiance of the WW. This is a difficult task, to say the least. Doing only one of those things is insufficient. The OM dumps the WW, but the WW hates you. The WW loves you, but also loves the OM.
I have considered several methods to get the OM to dump my WW:
-- send him daily emails asking him to stop seeing my WW
-- going to his house and telling him to knock it off
-- challenging him to a fight
-- beat the hell out of him
None of those solutions strikes me as likely to work. For now, I hold out hope for one possibility: the OM dumps my WW because he doesn't want to care for our two young kids, in addition to providing financial support for his two teenage kids.
What do you and others think?
---------------
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5) EA: Fall '08 She moves out: Fall '09 Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation Countin' on a miracle to come through Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1
You�re doing bad because you�re playing softball while your WW is playing hardball. Why don�t the girls live with you? Is there a legal document saying you can�t have the girls living with you?
If there is no order saying that you can�t have the girls, then you have no protection, but neither does she. Nothing prevents you from keeping the girls at your place. SHE moved out, correct? Or did you?
The situation is very simple: You file immediately to get sole physical and legal custody of the girls. Why you�re not doing this is beyond me. You�re sitting by praying that your WW comes to her senses and comes back.
Here�s the reality: She�s not. She isn�t going to and you�re losing the battle for your kids. What you need to be doing is filing legal papers, consulting a lawyer, and bringing the legal hammer down. File for alienation of affection against OM and start taking control of the situation.
You should not allow this man around your kids. There should be an investigation over the comments made by your daughter. You�re thinking about WW when you need to be thinking of your kids. Put the kids first and you can�t go wrong.
File for primary custody. Your wife is at war while you sit there in denial that you�re being bombed. The casualties are your daughters.
Get a lawyer. File papers.
You can still do MB while protecting yourself legally. Mortarman did it. He filed, won primary custody of his kids, and was about to get even more time with them when his WW finally woke up. But it took strength on his part to gather himself and fight the fight.
You�re paralyzed by fear. Wake up. Treat the marriage as if it was dead and start protecting your rights as a father!
I explored the scenario you outlined this winter. I consulted with my lawyer and read about my rights.
Bottomline: I don't have the money to fight for sole custody of my kids. I'm dead broke, to the point that I can barely pay my rent and bills. And anyway, the law in our states is joint custody absent physical abuse or my WW being a drug addict.
However, you're right: I plan to make sure the OM is not around my kids. ------------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5) EA: Fall '08 She moves out: Fall '09 Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation Countin' on a miracle to come through Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1
I'm intrigued by Gamma's suggestion to expose to the OM's son, who is not his biological father and no longer takes his last name. Exposing to his teenage kid would wake up the OM to the reality of his actions. However, I have exposed three different times, including as recently as four weeks ago.
So here's my question for everyone: Would exposing to his teenage kid help get the OM to release his death grip over my WW? (His other child doesn't seem to have a FB account).
------------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5) EA: Fall '08 She moves out: Fall '09 Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation Countin' on a miracle to come through Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1
I know I sound harsh. I remember being in your shoes. I literally gave away EVERYTHING with the hope that WW would return. She didn't. It was the best thing she could have done for me.
I did, however, fight for my rights in court.
Get your rights in writing. File divorce papers.
The second you accept that the marriage is dead you will take control of things.
Accept it. It's over. She's not coming back.
This doesn't mean she won't change her mind someday, but you're stuck in a situation where you're hoping and hoping. Well, hope isn't a plan.
Take action. I was broke and homeless. I got a job, filed papers for custody, and secured my rights.
All I'm saying is that it seems like the end of the world, but it's not.
I'm happily remarried to a wonderful woman that is a MASSIVE upgrade from my WXW in EVERY way. She's a wonderful woman.
I'm only sharing that to let you know that there is hope, but not hope in terms of restoring your marriage. That may or may not happen, but you need to accept that your marriage is dead, because it is, even if she comes back. The marriage you had is dead. If she comes back it will have to be completely rebuilt.
But accepting that is dead gives you a chance to grieve it's loss and get past where you are now.
Yes, you will hear little things from your WW that make you think she's her old self. She's not.
Go to plan B, stop all communications with her other than anything dealing with your kids, and put a stop to this man being around your children. That's going to take legal action and there shold certainly be an investigation by CPS.
No problem at all; thanks for responding. I appreciate your suggestion.
I was around the two of them once. It seemed that the OM cared about the kid; and in fact, he travels 300 miles once a month or two to see him. But the kid isn't too reachable. He's shy for one thing. But he also seems disaffected. He got lousy grades his freshman year and suffered from a lack of self confidence.
I believe I began seeing your posts here earlier this year, and then it seemed you halted.
While on the one hand I want to offer you encouragement and support, I do have a question. That question is, what are you realistically expecting from your Plan A at this time. It appears that you have been living apart for a year now. That is a long time. It's my understanding that implementing a Plan A is difficult at best when not residing together. From my limited experience here most affair-stricken couples do still live together, and as such, there is an opportunity for the BS to meet at least some needs - FS, DS, FC, and at least some degree of RC and Conversation, in addition to the UA time together. With what you are saying about your WW's attitude now in regard to her fending off any of your attempts (e.g., barely conversing with you and her reluctance to have you with her on her beach vacation), it just seems somewhat futile. In this regard I happen to agree with helpforlostdads in seriously going to Plan B.
I also think that many people here, including me, are concerned that you are enabling your D's to be exposed to this OM needlessly. If your WW was telling the truth in that it was "just a few times", my opinion is that is "just a few times" too many. MJ, do you really realize how confusing this most likely is and will be to your three-year-old daughter? On one hand mom does not allow dad to be with us, and on the other hand mome does allow OM to be with us?? Aside from even the possiblility of molestation, you need to be concerned with this MJ, and even if you have to eat hot dogs once a day for your main meal you need to raise funds for an attorney to protect your D's. So I also agree with helpforlostdads.
MJ, I am not trying to be harsh or intimidating. I just feel you are allowing yourself to be misguided. If I were in your shoes I would focus on, and in order 1) protecting your daughters, and 2) getting a job now. These are things you should now be doing way in front of longing to be with your WW on her vacation. And by the way, I am astounded at your in-laws reaction to you regarding your exposure. That is unless there is some prior stuff that they blame you for. I am Catholic as well, but no matter if catholic or whatever, Most people treat violation of M vows seriously.
You do have my support MJ, but in the words of one Vince Lombardi, you need to run to daylight on these matters.
I did post here in the winter and stopped. You have a good memory.
I'm not expecting much from my WW, who will be called Honey from now on. In fact, I'm expecting nothing. I simply want to add love units if possible. This was Dr. Bill Harley's advice to me when I called in to his radio show. I explained my situation to him, including the fact that she moved out. His response was, "Put out all of the stops to win her back. Writer her letters. Give her flowers." He sent me a copy of LB in the mail.
You make an excellent point about not exposing my DD's to the OM. He's a bad man. My problem is the specifics. Should I tell Honey in a calm but firm voice, "I do not want the OM to be around our daughters"? She'll deny that the OM sees them. How can I back up my words that the OM is NOT to be around them?
I hear you about protecting my daughters and getting a job. I am working overtime to get a job and will increase my vigilance about protecting DD's.
-- Helpthelostdads, I appreciate your concern. You don't have to post to my thread and you do. But Dr. Bill Harley's advice is not to file for divorce yourself. Don't take legal action, he says. Let the WS do it. I'll heed his counsel.
-- Honey can file for D in mid October.
-- Fighting for full-time custody of my kids would cost $10k-$20k. Even then, my chances of winning would be dubious.
-- Dr. Bill Harley told me on the phone, in May, to go to Plan A for six months. That means that I would go to Plan B in November.
-- I know where the OM lives. I drove to his house to confirm that Honey slept over there. Can I use my knowledge of his whereabouts to my advantage?
What Love Busters do you repeat without thinking that you can take steps to eliminate?
You mention her having no interest in reconciling until you have a full time job. How goes the job search and what kind of job are you seeking?
You have to realize that there is no magic bullet to find in any of this. You won't just suddenly find something new to try that will make your wife want to come back to you. You have to win her back and show her (not tell her) that you are a better choice than POSOM. If he is a controlling maniac, let him demonstrate that, which if he really is, he will accomplish far better than you ever could.
So what are you doing that could make your wife want to return to being married to you and spend the rest of her life with you? What are the things you are DOING to show her that?
You speak of cost involved in fighting for custody of your kids and say you simply can't afford to fight. I get the broke part. These days I am so broke I can't afford to pay attention longer than a few minutes... (I know, bad humor)
But if you don't find a way to fight, what do you think your odds of seeing your children grow up will be? OM or some other OM will end up raising your kids, teaching them HIS idea of morality and ethics. He will be at their graduation and maybe their wedding as well. He will be called Grandpa by their children...
Those things are certain if you don't fight, MJ. You might lose for lack of funds or just out of sheer bad luck. You could lose and miss out on your children's lives if you fight, but if you don't fight, it's a given...
Is there a local father's rights group in your area? Is there a law firm that is known to stand up for father's rights?
The thing about Plan A is that it is a plan of action. You need to analyze the situation and devise steps that you can take and at the same time protect yourself from being taken to the cleaners by your WW and her boyfriend AND protect your kids from growing up to think that cheating on your spouse is an acceptable way to live your life.
What are your wife's top ENs. How can you meet those?
What Love Busters are your downfall? What steps can you take to ensure they never happen again?
How can you demonstrate to your wife and to your ILs that YOU are the best man for your wife?
If you go into Plan B, now or in the near future, do you know who you will use as intermediary? Do you know how you will ensure your rights as a father are maintained while not having to see your wife? What is you plan of action if she files, seeks primary or sole custody of your kids and perhaps files charges against you wrongfully to keep you from seeing your kids?
What are you legally responsible for as far as debts and financial stuff goes?
Focus...
Breath...
Think...
PLAN...
ACT...
Plan A is the hardest thing you have ever had to do, MJ, but I have to tell you that if you get that far, recovery is way harder than Plan A...
You know where OM lives and know your wife slept there? Take pictures. Be there as she arrives and again as she leaves in the morning Don't sit outside all night, since you don't need the cops coming down on you for stalking, which is the way it will spin if she decides to push for it and for heaven's sake don't let them catch you sitting there watching them. The idea is not to start a war, it is to gather proof that she is cheating in case it is usable to your advantage either for exposure or in court as part of a custody battle.
If you are in Plan A, what are the specifics of your Plan A?
If you are planning for Plan B, what are the specifics of your PLAN?
No magic...
Nothing to make the fog go away and for her to beg you to come home...
Nothing you can do to reason or try to talk sense into her...
She has checked out. She has moved on. She's GONE...
What can you identify that YOU can do that will win her back?
Mark1952, thanks for your long and detailed response. I appreciate it. This is the damn toughest period in my life -- nothing else comes close -- and good advice like yours gives me hope.
My wife's top EN's? I will give them from what I think would be her perspective:
1. Financial support -- I'm jobless and all but broke! -- Except for one six-month period, she has always made more than me. Until our DD 3 came along, this had not been a problem.
2. Family commitment -- She criticizes me, not without justification, for the mosquito bites that my DD1.5 receives. -- I should add that I take care of our DD's Thursdays, Fridays, and most of Saturdays. I'm not SuperDad. But I can hold my own.
3. Honesty & openness -- She didn't know I was doing poorly at my next to last job. I received a poor evaulation report. She said this was the trigger for her to move out. (Yeah, right).
4. Conversation -- She used to like me calling her daily. The OM made his moves on Honey when I didn't call her at night during my night job.
5. Affection -- She criticized me for liking our daughters more than her. In truth, I failed to buy her clothes for anniversaries, birthdays, and the like.
6. Sexual fulfillment -- We disagreed occasionally over contraception. She insisted on using it. Sometimes I gave in. But I objected. And sometimes she gave in.
I am certain about the importance of the first three. C and A may be more important, but given her attitude toward me, it is hard to tell.
My LB's:
1. Independent behavior -- I used to work on Saturday mornings and Mondays, days she had off. I thought working on those times was OK. After all, we had agreed I could.
2. Annoying habits -- showing up late to events -- DD1.5 getting mosquito bites due to my lack of repellent.
3. Disrespectful judgments -- I'm a writer. I make judgments. Or used to. I read LB's and learned the error of my ways.
4. Angry outbursts -- This has not been a problem since last year, before I read HNHN and LB by Dr. H).
How I can meet Honey's EN's:
1. Financial support a. I'm waiting to hear back from three companies with whom I interviewed. One job would make good money, possibly more than she earns. The other job's pay is uncertain. The final one would be for a great company but earn only $40k. b. I need to bone up on ways to make money.
2. Honesty and openness a. I am almost radically honest with her. I told her that I owed her money from our rent deposit from 2.5 years ago. I tell her in detail about my time caring for our daughters. I lied to her about putting the GPS in her car, but I don't think I was supposed to be honest about that.
3. All of the other EN's could be met if her A ended. I know what I did wrong. All I need is a chance and time.
After reflecting on your message, I see that I need a detailed plan, not just a general idea. The plan should be written out, on an actual piece of paper. I will work on this tomorrow.
By the by, Honey is still bitter about me exposing a month ago, which was the third time overall. She talks with me on the phone OK. But in person, she's distant and doesn't ask me questions.
The other night, when she asked how I was doing with our girls, she lectured me about potty training DD3. I said to her in a calm but firm voice, "I don't like your tone. I don't need a lecture from you." Her response, "That's rich coming from the guy who a month ago told all of my friends and family members ..." I interrupted her before she finished her thought. Does anyone have thoughts on her continued upset? Just the same ol' same ol' from waywards?
I hear you about going to Plan B. Honey moved out 8.5 months ago; she doesn't want to communicate about us, except after I expose her A, when she threatens me; and the OM likely spends time with our kids.
But two things keep me from going to Plan B. Dr. Harley said to stay in Plan A for as long as possible, November at the latest. And I still don't have a job.
I get unemployment. That's what I give her; well, that plus savings. She gives me nada. In my state, unemployment checks are fairly generous. And yes, I'm frugal.
Yes, I'm doubling down on getting a job. Thanks!
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Last week, I wrote about what to say to my WW (aka Honey) that the POSOM is not to be around our DD's. I plan to ask her this Saturday afternoon alone when she picks up our kids from my apartment. Here was my question:
"My problem is the specifics. Should I tell Honey in a calm but firm voice, "I do not want the OM to be around our daughters"? She'll deny that the OM sees them. How can I back up my words that the OM is NOT to be around them?"
Any thoughts? Anyone?
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
After more than half a year of being unemployed, I will soon be employed, and by a prominent university to boot. This is big. My #1 LB for Honey has been my lack of steady employment. Well, that and the fact that I worked a night shift while she worked the day shift.
There are only two problems. The first problem is that I would make $30k a year less than Honey. She would still be the primary breadwinner. And, she says, she wants me to earn enough so she can stay home with the kids. However, I would get a lot of vacation time, which would allow me to make extra money.
The second problem is daycare for DD3 and DD1.5. I take care of them on Thursdays, Fridays, and most of Saturdays. With the new job, I would get the equivalent of 20 fewer hours a week with them.
Here's the deal: Our present arrangement -- I get our girls till 2 p.m. on one Saturday and till 7 p.m. on the other Saturday -- is no longer acceptable to me. I want to pick them up on Wednesday night and see them till Saturday at 7. That's still only three days a week. She gets them the other four days. She complains about not seeing them enough as is. I know that part of the stick of Plan A is letting consequences fall on the AP's. So what should I tell Honey?
I don't expect anybody to give me a 2 x 4 for asking this question, but I've been wrong before.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
ManinMotion -- Perhaps you are right. Except that Honey works with the POSOM and staying home with our girls would give her less time with him.
Kirk -- Thank you. I'm with you: Honey needs a talking to.
Meanwhile, a possible second job offer is in the offing
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
At the suggestion of most commenters on my thread, I had the talk with Honey this afternoon. DD3 volunteered a couple of weeks ago that she had eaten with the OM. While I had broached the subject indirectly with Honey, I told her that I did not want that man around our/my kids.
The talk came while she was in the car and about to drive off with DD3 and DD1.5 in the back seats. Honey seemed taken aback that I mentioned the subject. At first, she said that DD3 was three years old and did I understand that three year olds tell their parents what they want to hear when asked a question. I said that I didn't ask DD3 any such question about eating with the OM. DD3, I said, VOLUNTEERED that she had eaten with the OM. At this point, I could see shame or fear in Honey's eyes; she looked like she knew she had messed up. Honey backed down and agreed that OM would not eat with our daughters.
Tom 2010 -- I told Honey your point that letting DD3 and DD1.5 eat with the OM and not Daddy was confusing to the kids. Honey didn't say anything about this point.
I feel better after telling Honey about this. It helps too that I don't think I committed any LB's. I didn't make a SD or DJ. However, I did raise my voice, although Honey wondered whether I was about to cry. (Another one of her infernal DJ's). A fair-minded person might say I committed a low-level AO. I don't know. That's the one hand.
The other hand is bad news: Honey said that we were getting a D. She said this after complaining that she sees the kids 4.5 days a week, 1.5 of which is UA time.
However, Honey is misinformed or delusional about the particulars of D in Virginia. She told me while sitting behind the wheel that a) she plans to file for sole custody b) she will win because I haven't had a job and DD1.5 gets mosquito bites on her legs when she's with me and c) her lawyer will serve me papers. The likelihood that all three claims coming true are nil. Northern Virginia is a joint-custody area. Having 4 or 5 mosquito bites on a child's leg does not mean the parent is negligent. And lawyers don't serve papers.
What ticks me off about our exchange isn't just her disrespect. It's that I can sense the OM's contempt of me being channeled through Honey.
Please remind why the OM doesn't deserve a beat down? He's ruining everybody's lives -- Honey's, DD3 and DD1.5, mine, and his. Let me look again at the five reasons for just war according to Catholic social doctrine ....
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
For the record, I am still Plan A'ing Honey. Since May, I have been doing all of the carrots of Plan A, or most of them.
Friday is a good example. Honey called while I was at the local library with DD3 and DD1.5. I asked her about her day at work and how she was feeling; I was honest with her, mentioning that I am likely to get a job offer (or two) next week; laughed about DD1.5 putting her hands in the air to Beyonce's "All the Single Ladies"; and asked Honey if she wanted to join us for dinner at the local Mexican restaurant, which Honey and I liked going to. Honey liked everything about our talk except my invitation. "No," she said. "No." "Suit yourself," I said.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Thanks for asking. At the advice of Dr. Harley on his radio show, I plan to start Plan B in November. Do you think I should go into it sooner?
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
If you thing you can go till November, then that is fine, Dr. Harley's number one question is "How long can you continue plan A?" If you told me 3 day's, then go 3 day's on plan A, if you said a year then I would say go a year. It all depends how much strength you have for plan A, so if you think you can go till November then go till November
Just read your thread My WH has 'evaporated'. Since my exposure of him and OW he hasn't spoken to me or my sons, except to ask my eldest to load his things in the truck he sent - last Thursday.
The only person (that I know of) that he's spoken to is his cousin - not his best friend or his brother!
I can't do Plan A, as he's not here & I've got MS, so limited strength.
I think you need to do Plan A for as long as your comfortable - as per Sapphire
My only thoughts are my sons 18 & 21 - even at that age they are really hurting & angry
What Love Busters are your downfall? What steps can you take to ensure they never happen again?
Over the past week, I have taken steps to end three of my LB's -- a lack of financial support; an independent behavior; and an annoying habit:
1. LB: A lack of financial support. I am likely to receive an offer for a good job this week. However, the job likely will not pay as much as Honey's job, though the vacation is longer and there is a huge in-kind payment down the line.
2. LB: An independent behavior: watching porn and masturbating. Following the steps outlined by Dr. Harley in Love Busters, I wrote down the reasons I committed this IB and the steps necessary to recplace these two bad habits with good ones. The results so far have been encouraging. I haven't looked at porn in two months and haven't uh, well you know, in two weeks.
3. LB: Annoying habit -- Not listening to Honey and allowing DD1.5 to be bitten by mosquitoes. I followed #2 above. We'll see what happens this week when I take care of our girls.
Taking these three steps might sound small. Certainly they are not enough to win back Honey. But taking them makes me feel good and gives me hope for the future, regardless of Honey's response.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Sapphire -- Thanks for your advice. We're on the same page: do Plan A as long as possible. In fact, Mr. Wondering made an interesting point recently on another thread: Plan B is more of a prelude to divorce than an affirmative plan to save the marriage.
Dragonfire -- I am sorry to hear about your sitch. Hearing about your and your boys is painful. As for your WH, he talks only with his cousin because he knows that he supports the A while his brother and best friend don't, no?
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
[quote=MichaelJan] Dragonfire -- I am sorry to hear about your sitch. Hearing about your and your boys is painful. As for your WH, he talks only with his cousin because he knows that he supports the A while his brother and best friend don't, no? [quote=MichaelJohn]
No his cousin's horrified & can't believe it. She said that when he called her, he was short & clipped on the phone. I think he's more worried because she's his tax accountant & know's I'll be subpoena-ing his records from her. To my knowledge he hasn't told anyone else, except his boss, when 'they' were called in for an emergency board meeting, after I exposed them - they work for the same company as directors
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I received this email from the OM five weeks ago. I asked him to stop his PA with Honey and that our DD's were being hurt. His reply was a model of decorum, grace, and manners. (Yeah, right). It's another reason I think he needs a talking to.
Quote
Your obsession with me is relentless.
I�m certain you feel justified, hiding behind your fake morals and pretend higher purpose, as you send your rants to my friends and family. After all, what stranger would criticize a man for trying to salvage his marriage? But I am not some random acquaintance or friend-of-a-friend to whom you can sell your misguided notions and half-truths. So please, save the �children of God� speech for the other pretenders hiding behind organized religion as they continue their crusades of vengeance, intolerance and spite.
You are a Sunday Christian. When you next step into the booth with the priest, I hope you ask forgiveness for the sins you continue to commit against me in an effort to please yourself. My great hope is that you don�t try to fool God the way you try to fool others. In the end, we all pay for who we really are.
I�ve tried to let your foolishness pass, but you have once again directed it into my professional space. I�m certain for a man like you, content to allow others to pay his way while bemoaning his poor luck and bad timing, the concept of protecting a job in order to provide for loved ones is unimaginable. In my estimation, your inability to provide a serious, valuable career for yourself (coupled with your obvious emotional issues and reckless nature) are the source of your many troubles.
... I have had to work hard for the things I have, ensuring that I�ve had a job every day of my life since I was 17. This has led me to purchase multiple homes, drive luxury automobiles and provide my children with fine things. I will not let you jeopardize all that I have struggled for by continuing to bring your immaturity to my professional space.
So I need to be clear in telling you to leave me alone, and stop contacting my place of business, before you force me to explore my legal options against you. While your accusations might carry some moral weight with the other zealots who will listen, they carry no legal basis for you contacting my employer, my coworkers or harassing me via my professional e-mail address.
I�m certain you think you have nothing left to lose, but your continued cyberstalking, obsession and harassment carry legal ramifications. It is out of pity for you and consideration for your family that I have not sought a restraining order earlier. Any further contact from you will force my hand.
As for my relationships, my friendships, my private time, my life in general, I am not obligated to discuss it with you, nor will I do that now.
Normally, I would not think it appropriate to discuss your marriage. That you continue to drag me into these discussions is the only reason I am addressing it now. My attempt here is to show you how you look to the outside world. You call it persistence, but it is truly obsession.
You will notice that I have copied [Honey] on this communication, because its clear to me that you cannot be trusted and might even be unstable, and I want her to know the unvarnished truth of what I'm saying to you. With every communication, you seem more desperate.
When last I checked, slavery was abolished. Yet you speak of [Honey] as if your ownership rights are being infringed upon, and it is clear in every communication from you that I read that you are a hopeless, lonely wreck. That you think politely telling all of her friends and family, as well as random strangers, that she is a whore will in some way increase your standing with her is beyond laughable. I can�t imagine why she doesn�t want to be married to you any longer. She must be so proud.
Ultimately, you are like a batter who has been struck out looking, arguing the call with any umpire who will listen, begging for instant replay, hoping for more pitches. Inevitable strikes. You can�t hit the high heat, and you prove it over and over.
Someday you will understand that it is not the actions of others that separate you and [Honey], but your own actions past and current. Blame if you like. Hate if you want. Harass if you choose. But the rest of the world realizes that she will cease to be your wife as soon as the clock strikes the hour on the waiting period set forth by the State of [x] You couldn�t stop that if you tried.
You claim to love her, and yet you judge her to all who will listen. You air your private, intimate problems before friends and strangers. If she wanted you back, she would come back. To suggest that others are the roadblock to her return is to suggest that she is mentally incapable of making her own decisions, brainwashed and weak.
Why would she return to a man who feels that way about her?
Stay away from me and my job, and cease all communication with me. I�ve taken the time to be honest with you here about my estimation of your situation, in an effort to reply to your continued harassment. I�ve done it as gently as possible given your recklessness.
Accept your pending divorce graciously and salvage some portion of your dignity, before you truly have nothing left.
His claim that he provides for his kids is rich. He abandoned his wife and kids! He moved to Virginia, left his family in North Carolina, and according to his STBXW, asked her for a divorce last September.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
No, I did not write back. I didn't think it would do any good. What do you think?
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I don't think you can contact him any more. But he really can't tell you who you can and cannot contact. If you want to call his employer, then you can unless THEY tell you to stop.
As long as what you are saying is truthful, such as he's carrying on in a relationship with your wife while he's still legally married, etc, then I don't think he can really stop you.
Now I've not read the entire thread, so I don't know if he's using his employer's resources to carry on the affair or not. If he is, or if this is a work place relationship, then they may have an interest.
Then again, they may not want to get involved.
He can send a letter, his lawyer can send a letter, and that would only serve to prevent you from contacting him. He cannot speak for others with whom you communicate.
I'd thank him for his letter, and remind him that he really cannot control with whom you communicate. That you'll honor his request not to communicate with him, but cannot take seriously his request to stop contacting his employer, family, etc as they are presumably adults and can decide for themselves if they want to hear about his activities or not.
IMHO you are really doing well! Am sorry for not responding to your response, but have have a few situations develop here. As of last Sat. night now have my 24-year-old son here with me after his break-up with his gf. He is welcome of course, but just feeling an unexpected cramped style for last several days.
It's apparent that this OM spent quite alot of time composing that email to you - partly to justify his behavior, and partly to insult and denograte you. Why would someone do that? Because a) he is running scared and he wants to 'ride the high country' and POA and b) because he is one of those unredeemable lowlifes whose only defense is to insult the good guy - the guy who DID get himself a new job, has worked hard, loves his W, respects others and respects marriage, and in the vein of Lee Marvin's villian characters would prefer to kick a man or a woman when they are down!
MJ, ride the 'high country (in fact if you like westerns at all, try to get this movie - it is still inspiring to me - especially the gunfight at the end) and do not respond directly to him. If you have evidence of new contact or continutation of the A, and esp the OM's contact with your daughters, keep exposing, exposing, exposing. He cannot stop this, and in my opinion that would be better than you directly responding. On all of your subsequent exposures, please copy your W so that she knows you are not afraid of her and that she knows that everyone else knows about her vile behavior. Just make sure you do have the evidence to back this up.
At this point, with the reaction of the OM, I would consider going to a Plan B immediately MJ. That may fly in the face of the veterans here, but you have a hostile OM on your hands. And, you have the principle obligation of protecting your daughters frmo this vile creature from ever putting his hand on your D's leg, knee, face, whatever, ever again!
By way MJ, I am catholic too. Makes no difference what religion a person is, but didn't Christ blow his top and rip the tables out of the temple when he saw moneychanging?
Just protect your kids MJ, that is what you will be judged on - not so much on ever trying to save this marriage.
Enlightened -- Thank you. I won't contact the OM again, though I would like to bait him into him doing something stupid. But telling him that he can't stop me from contacting his family and friends -- well, it has been five weeks since I wrote and an email now might seem odd. I'm undecided on this.
Tom -- Thanks for your support. I enjoy hearing from you.
Sorry to hear about your son, though I'm not if the gf was bad news. I love "Ride the High Country." I watched it last year and admired Steve Judd. He was an excellent hero -- noble, stoic, and courageous but also human. Like him, I would be willing to take a bullet on behalf of someone else, especially a woman.
This is conjecture, but me telling Honey that the OM was not to be around our kids might have worked. I talked with Honey the other night and midway through our chat, DD3 spoke up. "Mommy," she asked, "are you mad with Daddy?" Honey replied, "No, I'm not mad at Daddy. Nobody's mad at Daddy." Not surprisingly, I believe DD3 more than Honey. I think that Honey told the OM that I didn't want him around our daughters and he got mad at Honey. Just a thought. If some of the female vets would like to offer their thoughts ... SapphireReturns?
I would like to expose again. The OM has a son, who's not his biological kid, with whom he's fond. The son is on Facebook. The problem is, I've exposed three times already. Exposing again would be trickling it out too much, imho.
This weekend I will talk with a couple who could serve as my intermediary during a Plan B. Here's my main reluctance about going to Plan B: I learn how to meet my WW's EN's in Plan A, in a way I would not if I went to Plan B. But don't worry. I will go to Plan B when neccessary.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
princessmeggy -- Thanks! Great idea. I will find her email and ask.
------------------ Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I am NO Schoolbus and I don't even pretend to play her on TV.
The email OM sent you is very interesting for me to read. I thought it was funny what he did. He cc'd it to your WW so he could knock you down and even place things in her head that she will think YOU said.
Obviously, exposure at his workplace was a DIRECT HIT. Good to know. The next time you want to expose him, contact his employer. Don't contact him anymore. You don't need to. He is like a chewed up piece of gum that got stuck on the bottom of your shoe.
Just work on your Plan A, prepare for your Plan B and go forward. BTW, although there has been some talk about how Plan B is NOT for marital recovery, that is not necessarily true. It is part of DrH's plans. Plan B is mainly to save the BS from any further abuse from the A. Plan A only works alone in 15% of cases. Your Plan A is still important as a prelude to Plan B. Without a good Plan A, your Plan B won't be as effective.
Micheal Read some of your thread and want to ask does your WW work with OM or is he her boss? if that is the case then you had every right to contact his place of business.
If not then I would not contact his place of business again because he could build a case of "defamation of character".
I know, I know he is pond scum but he can turn this on you.
You have exposed 3 times, time to sit back and be silent.
Work on your own goals that you listed a few pages back and see what develops.
I forgot to congratulate you in my post yesterday for landing a job - that is great! Considering the slow economic recovery that is relatively quick. I don't think it makes much difference at all that your income will be a little less than your W's at this point. Considering the millions of married couples in the US, I would imagine that many are characterized with the W earning as much or more. If money and earning potential was the principal driving factor, then I would imagine that 80% of the women would be chasing 20% of the men, and probably most of those would be atheletes!
Your obsession with me is relentless. You are annoying me, and you are more persistent than I thought you would be. If he had said this to you in person, he would have sighed, and pretended to try to swat you like a fly - but the true meaning of this is that you really are getting to him, and that he had not anticipated that you would even put up a fight. He is an egotistical person who believes nobody would deign to challenge him. You are a huge surprise to him for ever even challenging his self-perceived power. The fact that he opened with this sentence is meant to try to belittle you - an aggressive stance to the message.
I�m certain you feel justified, hiding behind your fake morals and pretend higher purpose, as you send your rants to my friends and family. An attempt at reversal here. He accuses you of "fake morals" when in fact he is the one who pretends to his friends and family to have high moral standards. He is angry that you have exposed his true colors. After all, what stranger would criticize a man for trying to salvage his marriage? But I am not some random acquaintance or friend-of-a-friend to whom you can sell your misguided notions and half-truths. So please, save the �children of God� speech for the other pretenders hiding behind organized religion as they continue their crusades of vengeance, intolerance and spite.
This is a multiple-shot rant. First, he takes a personal shot at you about what he is telling you is a FAKE ATTEMPT to recover your marriage. When he says that part about "what stranger would criticize....trying to salvage his marriage" his meaning is that you are using a wolf in sheep's clothing to enter his life. This is a direct accusation that you are not what you say you are, and that you used this cover as a vendetta against him. The second shot at you is that you are not a person of faith - he calls you out as a "pretender". This is meant as a direct and personal attack on your personal relationship with God, and your religious faith and committment. The third shot he makes is an interesting one to me, and I do not quite get it, but perhaps if I explain its meaning, it will mean something to you.
The third shot is against organized religion in GENERAL. He is quite vehement and angry against church-goers, and the quote "continue their crusades of vengeance, intolerance and spite" is directed not specifically at you, but at a larger group of people. Perhaps there has been some outside pressure by others in this, and he sees them as religious in nature, and that the "church" is coming down on him? At any rate, he is holding a much larger group of religious people at fault, and religion in general at fault. If I had more information, I might venture that your wife has used religion as a wall between them and the furthering of their relationship....it might be my guess.
You are a Sunday Christian. Yet another shot at your faith in God, and your personal relationship with God. I wonder why he feels privileged to know so much about how you and God talk? When you next step into the booth with the priest He may be angry with the church for reasons other than YOU. There is far too much here in that regard. As I read this, I begin to see that he may be using this because he believes it to be your most weak point. It may be that your wife has disclosed something in this area to him, and he is attempting to use it to gain power over you. Another possibility is that he views church-goers as WEAK people, and given hs opening statement this would not surprise me in the least. , I hope you ask forgiveness for the sins you continue to commit against me in an effort to please yourself Here is where HE shows HIS weakness. You have done something that hurt him wildly. Exposure of his true colors hurt him. Again, not a surprise, as this man thrives on admiration, and you stripped him of his facade. Good move. . My great hope is that you don�t try to fool God the way you try to fool others. In the end, we all pay for who we really are. This sentence was actually directed at himself. Oddly enough, it is reflective. How do I know?
Look at the change in pronouns.
He did not keep the "you-you-you" refrain he had going, about what you needed to do, about "your" church-going habits, etc. Suddenly, it changes to "we". He now includes
himself. hmmmmmmmmm.......he doesn't even realize it.
cool, huh?
Third paragraph I�ve tried to let your foolishness pass, but you have once again directed it into my professional space. I tried to take this like a man, but you hurt me at work. I�m certain for a man like you, content to allow others to pay his way while bemoaning his poor luck and bad timing He is telling you that he is richer and better than you are , the concept of protecting a job in order to provide for loved ones is unimaginable and now he is telling you that he is not only richer and better, but that he has a better job, can keep his jobs, is smarter because he "gets" this concept and you don't, he can protect and defend, and he will be a much better provider financially and in every other way for your wife. . In my estimation which by now you know is the ONLY opinion that matters in the entire world , your inability to provide a serious, valuable he does value money, and will bring this up whenever he can career for yourself (coupled with your obvious emotional issues and reckless nature) he considers your exposing the affair as emotionally unstable and reckless - only because he does not understand it, he did not predict it, and because it was unpredictable seemed reckless are the source of your many troubles. He believes he is the better man overall. This shouldn't come as a surprise, as he thinks he is pretty much better than everyone else in the general sense. His tone of the letter is condescending at best, because he believes he is better than everyone else. This will come back to bite him, because he will hold this over your wife's head - he will constantly remind her that he "saved" her from a "low" place, and that she came from a low place, and that she is lower than he is. She will come to hate him for this attitude.
... I have had to work hard for the things I have, ensuring that I�ve had a job every day of my life since I was 17. He hates to work, and wishes that he didn't have to. This has led me to purchase multiple homes, drive luxury automobiles and provide my children with fine things. Again he is telling you that he has money. I do not yet see any reference to how this has resulted in any reference to great family relationships, or anything regarding PEOPLE in his life, do you? I will not let you jeopardize all that I have struggled for by continuing to bring your immaturity to my professional space. He's worried that his JOB will be affected. Note that he doesn't mention his family life so much being strained. He doesn't really care about that. After all, he might lose one of those luxury cars - that's what really counts.
Because the third paragraph is the focus of the message in this letter, he really is angry that you messed him up at work. He has taken a major hit with his coworkers, and now they all know what a creep he really is. He is pi$$ed off, because he used to be the moral, true, and clean guy who was admired. Now, he's that guy who had the affair and that guy that had the married woman's husband raising he// all over the place at work. He does not like his newfound image. And he is ALL ABOUT IMAGE. Hence, the luxury cars....and house......
So I need to be clear in telling you to leave me alone, and stop contacting my place of business, before you force me to explore my legal options against you. While your accusations might carry some moral weight with the other zealots who will listen I have been spoken to by people who believe it is wrong to have affairs, and it is beginning to really bug the crap out of me because I know they are right, and I do not want to hear it.. , they carry no legal basis affairs are not against the law so nobody can stop me, even though somewhere in me I know they are wrong, and these religious people are bugging me so you need to quit for you contacting my employer, my coworkers or harassing me via my professional e-mail address. and yet again please note that his family and friends are NOT mentioned here because he does not care - you hit him in the money, right where it matters to him
I�m certain you think you have nothing left to lose, but your continued cyberstalking, obsession and harassment carry legal ramifications. This is his second "legal" threat. It is out of pity for you and consideration for your family oh, finally, he thinks about the "family". Not. This is an attempt to get YOU to consider his family, but his thoughts about this are that he does not want to get a restraining order because his FAMILY has asked him to stop the affair. Chances are, some of the religious "zealots" he speaks of are in his own family, and if he went for a restraining order, he would have to explain that he is STILL in the affair, because he is probably lying to them. that I have not sought a restraining order earlier. Any further contact from you will force my hand.
As for my relationships, my friendships, my private time, my life in general, I am not obligated to discuss it with you, nor will I do that now. He senses that you already know a lot about his private life. It bothers him.
Normally, I would not think it appropriate to discuss your marriage. That you continue to drag me into these discussions is the only reason I am addressing it now. My attempt here is to show you how you look to the outside world. You call it persistence, but it is truly obsession. This is a "but" paragraph. "I usually wouldn't do this, but I'm going to anyway. I couldn't help myself, even though I know I should fade away, I have a big mouth and big ego and just have to say SOMETHING....I need the contact to continue."
You will notice that I have copied [Honey] on this communication, because its clear to me that you cannot be trusted and might even be unstable, and I want her to know the unvarnished truth of what I'm saying to you. With every communication, you seem more desperate. This shot at you being desperate was said with the specific purpose of cutting you down in front of your wife. Nothing more. This paragraph is to try to reduce any possible trust you might have been rebuilding with her.
When last I checked, slavery was abolished. Yet you speak of [Honey] as if your ownership rights are being infringed upon, and it is clear in every communication from you that I read that you are a hopeless, lonely wreck. That you think politely telling all of her friends and family, as well as random strangers, that she is a [censored] will in some way increase your standing with her is beyond laughable. I can�t imagine why she doesn�t want to be married to you any longer. She must be so proud. I find it interesting that he takes a shot at Honey here. "She must be so proud" is a clear and very vindictive shot at her. If she is sitting on the fence, she should see clearly how mean he can be when he doesn't get his way - or when someone challenges him. He hits repeatedly, and she would be advised to think hard about a life with him.
Ultimately, you are like a batter who has been struck out looking, arguing the call with any umpire who will listen, begging for instant replay, hoping for more pitches. Inevitable strikes. You can�t hit the high heat, and you prove it over and over. See what I mean? Someday you will understand that it is not the actions of others that separate you and [Honey], but your own actions past and current. Blame if you like. Hate if you want. Harass if you choose. But the rest of the world realizes that she will cease to be your wife as soon as the clock strikes the hour on the waiting period set forth by the State of [x] You couldn�t stop that if you tried. What he doesn't understand is that Honey can stop it, and the court can. It ain't over til the fat lady sings.
You claim to love her, and yet you judge her to all who will listen. You air your private, intimate problems before friends and strangers. If she wanted you back, she would come back. To suggest that others are the roadblock to her return is to suggest that she is mentally incapable of making her own decisions, brainwashed and weak.
Why would she return to a man who feels that way about her? This is his own musing, because he doesn't understand the approach of MB. It is counter-intuitive, and he illustrates it here.
Stay away from me and my job, and cease all communication with me. I�ve taken the time to be honest with you here about my estimation of your situation, in an effort to reply to your continued harassment. I�ve done it as gently as possible given your recklessness. As gently as possible. He has no personal insight whatsoever. Either that, or no proofreader? Anyway, he is back to his true purpose of the letter, which is
money. His job.
Accept your pending divorce graciously and salvage some portion of your dignity, before you truly have nothing left. Again, he is re-establishing what he believes is his dominance over you.
I did not read your thread first, because it works better this way. I think awhile back I might have posted to you when you first arrived, but since then, I haven't read your story.
Your WW has obviously chosen to divorce. I don't know that she is seeing this man as a future husband, but if she has, it is sad to say she will not last under his thumb.
He is very controlling, very manipulative, and focused on the acquisition of things. She will rapidly realize that she is in a marriage alone, because the only person in a marriage with this man
will be HIM.
And everyone will be expected to meet HIS NEEDS. After all, what else is there???
As always SB, THE BEST. I for one was VERY interested and WAITING to read what you would think about this. Not just about getting into wayward's minds here, it's about PEOPLE. UNBELIEVABLE.
MJ- You scored on that one. Talk about a direct hit. I do agree that you should probably let the exposure to his son pass for now. How old is the son anyway?
SchoolBus -- Thank you, thank you. You are most kind and generous. I appreciate your insight. Your analysis gives me hope, a quality in low supply in our family now. As I am the library now and have DD3 and DD1.5 in tow, I can't comment at length later,
SoL -- Thanks for reading my thread. I have been following yours and even mentioned your story to my sister as an example of the depths to which a WS can sink.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
SoL -- His son, by the way, is 16 or 17. The OM said in a FB post that his son was his favorite person in the world. But yeah, exposing to the son now might be counterproductive.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Honey and the OM work together. Both are supervisors. Should I send the OM's letter to their boss?
I kind of exposed to the boss in October; I asked him if Honey worked late on Thursday nights or was seen with the OM. At the time, the boss said I needed to work on myself. That was disheartening. But there might be hope. The boss is an observant Catholic with eight kids.
------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
SchoolBus -- After reading your post again, I am even more impressed by your analysis of the OM. It was more than insightful and clear. It was eerie. Let me explain more. For now, I have one question: What leads you to conclude that my WW (aka Honey) has "obviously chosen to divorce"? That's her frame of mind now as opposed to two or three months down the line, right?
Everything else was as clear as daylight. For example, I was struck by your conclusion that the OM cares about no one but himself. Back in January, his STBXW said the same thing to me about him. In fact, she wrote to me,
Quote
As for whatever else she may think is going on, she is delusional. I know [the OM]. I was with him for 14 years. He doesn't want her. He doesn't want anyone. So I hope she didnt give it all up thinking that was what is gonna happen.
I also liked your conclusion that the OM hates his job. The first time I met the OM, at a party in my honor, he complained about you know what. "It sucks. I f***ing hate my job. It sucks," he said as I recall. Everything else was talking, drinking, and eating. He was bellyaching.
Finally, I enjoyed your many conclusions about the OM -- he transfers his vices on to me; he values nothing but money; and most of all, his big fear is to be hit in the pocketbook. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
P.S. An explanation about the OM's comments of my religiosity are in order. As a Catholic, I go to confession regularly, though not as often now having practiced the MB program (!). Honey surely told him about this. And just as surely, he thinks going to confession is a sign of personal weakness. (How wrong he is!)
P.P.S. At Mass today, I heard the priest remind us that we should love our enemies as ourselves. In that spirit, I will say one thing about the OM: He is the product of a broken home. According to Honey, the OM's father was a notorious womanizer. His dad's philandering does not excuse his behavior. But it helps explain it. ------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Scotland -- I hear you about Plan A. A good Plan A makes for a better Plan B.
Tom 2010 -- I agree. Getting a job in this economy is difficult. Honey will be reassured. However, she would like the option of staying home with our two young kids. Or that's what she says.
Hope 3343, Not2Fun, and Princess Meggy -- I may have left the wrong impression. I did not expose the OM at work, though I kind of did to his boss and Honey's boss last fall. I sent the OM a message to his email address at work. But yeah, sending him the email at work spooked him. His reaction showed his vulnerability.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
The tone of OM's letter tells me that at this point your WW has led him to believe she is divorcing, and that the paperwork will go through on its own, with a date certain. He states that in the letter - and his words and phraseology tell me that this is something he is quite comfortable in "knowing".
The problem for him is that these things often seem "certain" and come unglued. You are correct - two or three months down the road Honey may very well have a change of heart, if you do your Plan A work correctly.
As far as my thoughts go, regarding the idea of exposing to his son?
I'm not a huge advocate of telling kids that are minors about things their parents are in charge of. For me, that is something the parents should decide.
On the other hand, it wouldn't kill me if the son found out through another source. He may already suspect, or even know. Things get around.
As far as my thoughts go, regarding the idea of exposing to his son?
I'm not a huge advocate of telling kids that are minors about things their parents are in charge of. For me, that is something the parents should decide.
On the other hand, it wouldn't kill me if the son found out through another source. He may already suspect, or even know. Things get around.
I agree. At this point, me telling his son would be hitting below the belt -- an act of "vengeance" that he accuses me of. Would the OM's STBXW tell the son? I doubt it. So the OM and Honey would blame me.
However, I wonder about forwarding the OM's letter to his boss, who is also Honey's boss. What do you think? I'm undecided. On the one hand, the OM composed the letter at work, a likely violation of company policy; whether having a workplace affair is a violation of company policy I don't know. On the other hand, days before Honey moved out, I told the boss of Honey and OM questions about their relationship. The boss told me to work on my own problems.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I'd go over their bosses head and let their bosses boss know that he's allowing a workplace affair to go uncontested. If the boss of Honey and OM don't care about the affair now, he may if his boss is not a fan of the affair.
If I understand, you've tried to engage their boss and got the blow off. His boss may want to know one of his reports has a casual attitude about workplace affairs.
Such affairs can bring negative consequences to the workplace, and it's unwise for any leader to allow such a potential landmine to undermine any office, division, or whatever workunit the laizze-faire boss manages.
Thanks for the advice. You are right: their boss's attitude was laissez-faire.
I called the corporation's human relations department and will hear from them tomorrow.
On the 'net, I did a bit of research about workplace affairs (and remember reading a thread on MB about them). The technical term is workplace fraternization. Unless the affair is between a supervisor and underling, the problem is that the affair damages employee morale, especially relating to promotions and performance. That's my two cents.
I would be more enthusiastic about calling their boss to the carpet, except that Dr. Harley isn't crazy about exposing at work. And right now, Honey earns all of the money in our family. -----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
It really depends on company policy. Many companies won't allow those romantically involved to be in the same management chain. Not to mention what is the negative PR associated with knowingly refusing to address a workplace affair when one or both the betrayed spouses brought it to the attention of management.
Also, if they are using work resources, such as computers, cell phones, etc, to carry on the affair, if there are any damages awarded, the company who allowed this to continue against published company policy may be liable.
If your state or the state they work has alienation of affection laws, or laws against adultery, you may be able to entangle the employer in any legal action.
Lawyers like going after deep pockets. No company looks good if it's public knowledge that they allow their employees to carry on, breaking up families.
There are all sorts of ways to put pressure on the employer that might make them care more than they've indicated so far.
Who says they have to know you exposed. If they are having an affair at work and it's against company policy, they made the decision to break the rules.
Besides, you have an offer pending.
I suppose you could wait until you start work. But I wouldn't wait too much longer after that.
Enlightened -- Honey is definitely using a work resource, a Blackberry, to carry on her A. She uses it all the time.
Honey's state has laws against adultery, but not for alienation of affection. Go figure. But yeah, the employer would NOT want to be entangled in such a thing.
The Road -- Good to see you are reading my thread again.
I thought the same thing: Honey has to get NC with the OM anyway. However, she likely would never talk with me again if she were fired because I exposed her A to her employer. Exposing it might destroy the house with no possibility of it being rebuilt. Then again, the house of our marriage is crumbling.
For what it's worth, Dr. Harley weighed in on workplace affairs in a column last October:
Quote
When there is an affair in the workplace, my general advice is that the unfaithful spouse must quit the job and find another to avoid ever seeing or talking to the lover again. But while the affair is taking place and the unfaithful spouse is unwilling to resign, should a betrayed spouse expose the affair to the employer? While I unhesitatingly recommend exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children, and the lover�s spouse, I�m not so quick to suggest exposing it to an employer. That�s because such an exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim. Or, it might trigger an outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult to find another job. So my advice whether or not to expose to an employer is usually made on a case-by-case basis.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
The people at work already know [about Honey's . It's kind of overkill at this point, IMHO.
I tend to agree with you. Exposing again might be overkill. Also, while jogging last night, I thought of my possible reasons for exposing again to their boss and or his boss' boss. Almost all of my reasons would be rooted more in vengeance and spite at the OM. These likely are not sufficient to expose again. You know what the Bible says about vengeance: It's for God to exact vengeance, not us.
That said, finding out their company's policy on "workplace fraternization" would be good to know; a possible bullet in my holster.
You also wrote,
Quote
You need to be in Plan A, and be the bigger man, the better prize to Honey.
What are you doing to look like the best choice?
Thanks for asking. I've taken six steps to being the bigger man and better prize for Honey:
1. Am on the verge of getting a stable, full-time job during the day. This would meet Honey's EN's for C, A, and FS.
2. Have written out and followed a plan to prevent DD1.5 from being bitten by mosquitoes and for me to listen to Honey at all times. This began last week and would meet her EN for FC and DS.
3. Have written out and followed a plan to get us out of debt, secure an emergency fund for us, and put us on the road to prosperity. This began last night and would meet Honey's EN for FS. Now I just need to pay her back about $700!
4. Have written out and followed a plan to stop looking at porn and masturbating. I haven't looked at porn in 9 weeks and haven't done -- well, you know -- in 3 weeks. This meets her EN for H and SF, albeit indirectly.
5. Have lost 20 pounds and run 15-18 miles a week. This would meet her need for PA.
6. Have been radically honest with her.
I'm content with my self improvement. The only problem is, Honey won't give me the time to witness my changes firsthand.
As for the OM's letter, he forwarded it to Honey, so I don't need to share it!
P.S. For newbies curious about my abbreviations for Emotional Needs, here is the URL to Dr. Harley's description of them. [url=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html][/url]
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
With my new job starting up, my child-care situation will change. I will have less time with our daughters. Instead of caring for them for all of Thursday and Fridays, I will be at work those days. What's the best way to negotiate with Honey about the days?
I talked with her about the sitch today. Not surprisingly, she doesn't want to budge from our current arrangement: She gets them 4.5 days a week, I get them 2.5 days a week. I made a new offer: I get them 3 days a week, she gets them 4 days a week. She hated that idea. In fact, she said I should get them less than now -- every other weekend. No way, I said.
Naturally, I think my proposal is best. I would pick them up from day care on Wednesdays and drop them off to her on Saturday evenings. This arrangement would give me almost a full day with the girls on Saturdays as well as three nights (Wednesday, Thursday, & Friday). She would have them four nights, including a full day on Sunday. She would continue to see more of them. Yet she wants no part of this new deal.
Honey is angry; I can tell. After we negotiated our old rental deposit, she said she "looks forward" to having the courts settle how much I owe her monthly. Her implication that we're getting divorced is discouraging, to say the least ... And yet she sounded genuinely hopeful today when I told her that I received a verbal offer of employment.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Tell her the courts will award you 50-50 time with the kids. She doesn't get to decide how much each of you get the kids!!!
I told this to her the weekend before last. It's joint custody in northern Virginia courts, I said. She denied this. I would only get the kids every other weekend, she said. She's barmy -- oh, sorry, she's a typical wayward.
Perhaps the best I can do for now is to get a bit more time. Instead of picking them up Thursday mornings, I would pick them up Wednesday nights. This would make commuting to work much easier. We would maintain our current arrangement on Saturdays -- one Saturday 2 p.m. drop off, another Saturday 7 p.m. drop off. The problem is, I would not get a full day with our lil chicas.
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
She is thinking about the alimony she will be paying you and now, maybe, not as much!!
Why would she pay me alimony?
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Me: BH, 39 (with job offer pending) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Instead of worrying about what her plans are for you....
Why don't you begin making plans and making your own demands?
Plan A isn't all about what SHE wants.
There are realistic issues here. While you can be showing her how terrific you are, you can also show her the consequences of the divorce.
There is a good point in the issue of alimony. She makes more money than you do. Therefore
you CAN ask for spousal support, you CAN ask for child support, you CAN ask for FULL CUSTODY.
WHY NOT????/
Wouldn't that surprise her?
Why are you leaning back and accepting her explanations that "she will have the kids" certain percentages, certain days, and that YOU will pay alimony?
The court has not ruled.
You need to get the idea that YOU can push back.
There is something to be said for a STRONG MAN.
Look down there. You have a pair.
Women are actually attracted to men who take charge. It might surprise you to find out that she responds quite differently to you when you tell her that you have your own ideas of how this divorce would go down
IF
it even goes down.
Then, have your attorney file YOUR ideas. Foul things up a bit.
Then, have your attorney file YOUR ideas. Foul things up a bit.
Me thinks you have a grrrrreat plan. Are you up for it? Full on Plan A or bust. If your WW decides that she IS going to commit to your marriage, you can get a better job then to help out your family, with POJA of course. You need to listen to what these people are telling you. They have recovered their own marriages and have helped others with their own marriages. They have seen it all. Listen up. You will learn a lot from them.
I hate going to him. We talk about divorce, a topic I loathe. He costs $250 an hour. And Honey and I should be talking about reconciliation, not breaking up our family.
you said: ""And Honey and I should be talking about reconciliation""
Did I miss something here?
So when did W-Honey (that W is for WAYWARD remember?? as in being a continuing ADULTRESS) change her thinking, do a total 180, and want to move home????
Dude, you may want to face the facts. Unless you do some hard earth shaking changes in your interaction with W-Honey as Schoolbus suggests, you are going to stay in this limbo until the Big D bus runs over you.
So when did W-Honey (that W is for WAYWARD remember?? as in being a continuing ADULTRESS) change her thinking, do a total 180, and want to move home????
Honey did what you might call a 90 degree angle this afternoon. While I made my we-can-still-have-a-great-marriage-speech, she choked up and shed a tear. She hasn't showed emotion like this all year. Her fog seemed to lift. Should I send her web links about how to recover a marriage from adultery or do some research on the topic?
That's the short version of this post. The long version is a recap of today's events, such as they were. Honey drove over to pick up our girls from my apartment. She was in a good mood. She smiled, laughed, and asked a few questions. She even stepped foot into my apartment, which she had stayed away from. And she asked DD3 while holding her if DD3 had congratulated me for getting a job. After we got the girls in her car, I talked with her on the other side of her car, near DD1.5. Then I made my speech, which I had rehearsed last night and today. Here's what I said:
Quote
We can still have a great marriage. I still love you. I still consider you my love bug. I still want to make you happy. And I know that I didn't make you happy, because I put my career above your happiness. But I know exactly what it takes for us to build a new lifestyle and have not only a good marriage but a great marriage. Can I send you some links from female marriages coaches* about what it takes?
Honey choked up after I said that I had not made her happy and continued to be emotional until after the great marriage quote. I was emotional too. I didn't cry, I didn't choke up, and I didn't whimper. But I felt happy after she left. For the first time all year, I felt that we were walking out of the forest of limboland and toward the sun-streamed land of hope and dreams. I walked back to my apartment and parked it on my old orange couch.
A few minutes later, I realized that her fog has not entirely lifted. She didn't contact me at all yesterday, a day when I took care of the girls at my place, which indicates usually she's with OM. As late as Thursday, she was still talking about (divorce) lawyers. And when I asked her if she would read the links, she didn't reply. Instead, with our girls crying and talking in the back, she said, "I gotta go." At a minimum, she is sitting on the fence.
I'm encouraged but also cautious. She acted like this before she took our girls home to see her family for Christmas; after inviting me into her apartment and us talking for half an hour, she gave me a hug. And she choked up in her apartment complex's parking lot about a month after we moved out. So do I strike while the iron is hot and send those links now?
* Honey (aka "W-Honey") is a feminist, more so since she decided to move out. She insisted that we see a female marital couch. She seeks out books by female authors. And she doesn't trust men much, including priests.
-------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I certainly would NOT send her here. She is still sitting too much on what she thinks is the pathway OUT.
You need to show her your changes, stick to Plan A, and do NOT do anything that moves this marriage toward a divorce. Whenever she talks about divorce, tell her you want to try a marital coach instead, and ask her to counsel with the Harleys. they have females.
Ask her to do you just one small favor.
It is important that as you make this request that you are extremely calm, that you do not beg, that you do not sound wimpy, and that you ask her in a "man to man" mindset.
I say "man to man" for a reason. You must talk to her as you would talk to a FRIEND - not as your wife. You MUST use distance emotionally during this talk, and she MUST feel that from you. You must be cordial to her, but NOT LOVING. Remember that. Be physically distant, at least four feet away from her. Look at her face, but not intently. Be serious in your interaction, and ask her for this information as you might ask for business information. She must not see it as anything else.
Tell her that one of the things you are working on in your self-improvement is that you are carefully looking at how marriage works, in particular your own role in your marriage to her. You want to understand what you did wrong, how you can improve, and you are looking at marriage "in the greater sense". do not tell her what you have been reading, but do tell her you have been reading articles and information which led you to ask this.
Ask her to do you a favor, and would she write you a brief description of what she thinks the greatest marriage would include - what it would be like - and what she thinks you did that contributed to her looking outside your marriage to get her emotional needs met. Tell her it does not have to be long, she doesn't have to feel like she has to be over critical, just identify what she thinks the main points are.
Tell her that it is important to you, as a person, and that it has absolutely NO BEARING on whether you two remain married or not. You need this information to go into your own future - because if you remain married you need it, and if you divorce, you will need it to begin a new life with another woman, because you do not ever want to duplicate these mistakes in another marriage. You want to learn from your mistakes.
Watch her reaction.
This will tell you a great deal.
Most likely, she will initially decline.
Then, you will get a letter, and it will be clear to her intent.
The letter may be very direct, and tell you exactly what you asked. This shows you distance, but could also show possible conciliatory position as well. Because you know her, you should be able to tell where she is leaning.
The letter may be angry, and may come from a very harsh and retaliatory point of view. You will understand that one!
The letter may come from her heart, and she may tell you very up front exactly which way she is thinking. She may not be harsh, but she may reveal everything you need to know, and she may state her intentions in a way that you will understand for your future.
At any rate, if you ask the "favor" correctly, my money is on her writing to you, and on her telling you exactly what your future with her holds.
I will heed your counsel: Ask that she write me a letter about what the greatest marriage would include. As I am at Kinko's and without web access at home, a condition of my Plan A, I cannot comment at length. But don't worry; I will write more tomorrow. Thanks again.
-------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
In re-reading your post from Saturday, I am uncertain about the intent of my future talk with Honey. Is it to show her my confidence and strength or to determine her interest in continuing our marriage?
---------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
You are basically unemotional, because you have to be "business like" in this conversation with her in order to show that you are serious about your changes. Also, because the idea of begging her to do this for you is
weak
and you are not to beg, in any way, shape or form. This is a business request, nothing more. If you cannot ask her in that way, then do not do it.
When you believe you have the self-control and strength to ask her in a business-like manner, then ask.
This is an important exercise with her, and it will gain - for you - a great deal of information.
It will determine her CURRENT interest in continuing your marriage. That doesn't mean much, of course, because the fact is if you are able to control yourself, become strong, show strength, and not be weak/begging....and make that a permanent change....your chances of being more attractive increase.
You see that, right?
NEVER approach her unless you are approaching from a confident position. That doesn't mean you show anger, or abrasiveness. Just confidence and strength. No begging, no submissiveness, no sheepishness, no cowering.
This exercise also tells you information that YOU NEED. If she agrees to write this stuff down for you, it will tell you what you did wrong......and right.....
and whether or not your marriage survives
you need that information.
Either way, you get that information if she writes the letter.
And you lose NOTHING by asking. You gain everything by showing strength by asking for it in the first place.
I see that. No matter what I do, I show her strength and confidence. Don't be a doormat or wimp. Thank you. This advice helps.
Is asking her in person better than asking her on the phone? Or does it matter?
By the way, I am interested in her changed attitude toward me. Any idea if she is still seeing the OM or just sitting on the fence between us?
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Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Now is a good time to show strength and confidence to Honey. She wants our daughters for Thanksgiving AND Christmas. This is in addition to two whole weeks she will have had with them this year; and she had our girls for Christmas last year. Talk about entitled. Honey is Miss Entitled USA.
She called me after 10 last night wanting to resolve our holiday plans. Or HER holiday plans; she had a meeting to discuss her plans at work this morning. No lead time, no advance warning -- here are my dates, she said.
I called back and left a message. Bad news, I said: I get a week and a half off at Christmas rather than two weeks. You going home to see your family from Dec. 18-26 ain't going to work, I said. I need a week with our girls at least, I said. She called back and attempted to get her way. We haggled a bit. Then our talks broke off. I made clear she's not getting everything she wants.
I showed strength and confidence to her. Whether I showed enough is another question. I may have committed an LB by raising my voice when she said something insulting; she said that my insistence on getting our girls at Christmas because it's December 25 is one of my family's "hang ups." And I did not lay down the law, as in, "No, absolutely not; taking the girls for a whole week before and during Christmas is unacceptable. I was thinking of Dr. Harley's policies governing negotiation.
She ticked me off. I lost half an hour of sleep last night thinking about her proposal and inconsiderate actions. She did this despite her apparent change of heart on Saturday.
Then I thought of things more philosophically. This is a new phase for me, I guess: a time to test my strength and confidence. I've had other phases before; times when I was tempted to dump Honey and date other women; times when my job prospects were bleak and reconciliation between Honey and I seemed impossible. For every season, turn, turn, turn, right?
Any thoughts about how to show strength and confidence to a WS while adhering to Dr. Harley's negotiation strategy?
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
She left an email message and talked with me. Now she's talking (divorce) lawyers again. Aghh!
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 Her move out: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Look at the big picture. In the end, it isn't about you, but it is about your kids.
Yes, there needs to be an equitable division of time in the holidays. Does she get a week off? Does she wish to take the kids?
The fact is that you will have to swap out years, as is the norm. This year they spend the 25th with you, next year it's with her.
Part of this phaze is the acceptance of the reality that you're lviing in seperate homes and the WW has the hardest time understanding that you, as a dad, have a say in things whether she likes it or not.
So yes, stick to your guns, but understand that whatever you get this year, you lose next year.
Where is she staying? Is she still at the home? If she is not where are the kids staying?
How long are you in plan A for? Doesn't sound like your wife wants this marriage and is pushing you away further no matter how good you are doing plan A. Have you thought about your plan B?
Thanks. You're right: I need to look at the big picture; it's about the kids, not me. (Exactly; our girls are a big reason for me to stay in the marriage.
Sapphire Returns writes,
Quote
Where is she staying? Is she still at the home? If she is not where are the kids staying?
Honey moved out last fall. She lives about 20 minutes away; I'm in the city, she's in a suburb. Our girls spend 4.5 days with her, 2.5 with me.
You also ask,
Quote
How long are you in plan A for? Doesn't sound like your wife wants this marriage and is pushing you away further no matter how good you are doing plan A. Have you thought about your plan B?
I'm in in Plan A till November at least. Actually, she's not pushing me away. She's blowing hot and cold. Late last week, she talked about divorce lawyers; on Saturday, when I made my save-our-marriage speech, she shed a tear and choked up. This morning, she talked about the (divorce) lawyers; this afternoon, she sent me an adorable picture of our two daughters, the first time she's sent me a picture in six months at least.
Any thoughts on her mercurial actions? Color me confused.
I have thought about Plan B. In fact, I plan to have dinner Sunday night with a couple who could serve as our intermediaries.
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
By the way, I think Honey's email of our girls was a ploy. She used it as a carrot to get me to agree for her to spend more time with our kids at Christmas-time.
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
HAHAHA! See...she only sent that pix FOR HER not for YOU! See how selfish she is? WOW!
I'm guessing she sent the pic as a ploy; I don't know for sure. You might be right; you might not. Her warm reaction to me Saturday did not seem calculated at all.
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Last week, Schoolbus advised me to do the following:
Quote
It is important that as you make this request that you are extremely calm, that you do not beg, that you do not sound wimpy, and that you ask her in a "man to man" mindset.
I say "man to man" for a reason. You must talk to her as you would talk to a FRIEND - not as your wife. You MUST use distance emotionally during this talk, and she MUST feel that from you. You must be cordial to her, but NOT LOVING. Remember that. Be physically distant, at least four feet away from her. Look at her face, but not intently. Be serious in your interaction, and ask her for this information as you might ask for business information. She must not see it as anything else.
Tell her that one of the things you are working on in your self-improvement is that you are carefully looking at how marriage works, in particular your own role in your marriage to her. You want to understand what you did wrong, how you can improve, and you are looking at marriage "in the greater sense". do not tell her what you have been reading, but do tell her you have been reading articles and information which led you to ask this.
Ask her to do you a favor, and would she write you a brief description of what she thinks the greatest marriage would include - what it would be like - and what she thinks you did that contributed to her looking outside your marriage to get her emotional needs met. Tell her it does not have to be long, she doesn't have to feel like she has to be over critical, just identify what she thinks the main points are.
Tell her that it is important to you, as a person, and that it has absolutely NO BEARING on whether you two remain married or not. You need this information to go into your own future - because if you remain married you need it, and if you divorce, you will need it to begin a new life with another woman, because you do not ever want to duplicate these mistakes in another marriage. You want to learn from your mistakes.
I heeded Schoolbus' advice. And I think my talk went well. But it's hard to tell. Honey hasn't written me a letter yet.
On Saturday, while she picked up our girls from my apartment, I gave her my speech. My tone was low key and calm, serious but not grave, friendly but not loving. Also, I said pretty much everything Schoolbus advised: in my plan for self improvement, I'm looking at marriage, particulary my role in it ... I've been reading ... Would you write a letter ... the greatest marriage ... my faults as a hunband and my areas for improvement ... The letter doesn't need to be harsh .. It's important and would help me. Whether we remain married or we get divorced and I have a new relationship with another woman ... I want to learn from my mistakes.
Honey listened intently to my speech. She wasn't irritated at all, despite that our girls in the back of her car were squawking and two mosquitoes flew in. She told them, "Daddy has something to tell Mommy," and asked if they would they be be quiet.
She was also sanguine. When I told her that the letter didn't need to be harsh, she chuckled.
She agreed that the idea of me getting her views would be helpful. When I said the bit about "whether we remain married or get divorced," she nodded her head; she didn't reject the idea.
She did not commit to writing a letter. When I asked if she would write such a letter or email, she said, "Let me think about it."
I don't know what to think. At the time, I was pleased with my peformance and her reaction. She seemed open to the idea and I felt good that I was taking the lead on our marriage. And when she says "Let me think about it," she usually means she will agree to help. After I walked from her parking spot to my apartment, I wrote to myself, "Bottomline: I deposited love units. She knows I'm changing for the better and am serious about improving my self."
That said, Honey has yet to write me. And who knows if she will. She's conflict averse, so I'm not holding my breath.
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Just remember not to pressure her with the letter, don't even bring it up!
Doing great! Keep up the work!
Thanks, Sapphire. I appreciate the support and good cheer.
I need it. I don't feel good emotionally. I'm getting indignant and feel very amorous. This is tough. I keep busy. I run 20 miles a week; I go over to friends for dinner; and I call friends and family members. Yet I'm mad. On Friday night, while picking up our girls from daycare, I saw my wife's car outside her apartment. She could have been with us. Instead, she was with God knows what or who. Also, I'm imagining more scenarios in which I'm dating specific women rather than Honey, although I imagine those scenarios too.
I might be feeling entitled and self pitying. Sorry. As Mark1952 and others have written, life ain't fair. And I have many blessings in my life, especially most of the commenters on MB.
------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
A quick Plan B update: I ate dinner last night with a couple who seemed like good candidates to serve as IM's. They read HN/HN in their marriage prep. They're religous and value marriage. And they like my daughters. But they declined my offer to serve as IM's, except in case of emergency. They don't know Honey, they said. Why don't you try other friends who do, they added. So I will keep trying.
------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
One last update: Honey told me last night that she took our girls to a carousel that day. Which happens to be 4 miles or a 9-minute drive from the OM's condo. Time to remind Honey that I don't want our kids even close that man or to play it cool?
------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
If Schoolbus is reading this, I am interested in knowing what she thinks I should do next to chip away at Honey's resolve.
------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Of course, you're advice is good too. And I'm taking it; I won't remind Honey about my request on Saturday until she brings it up.
------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
The only new development for me is that Honey takes our girls to the beach with my IL's this weekend. I exposed to them already, except for one sister, who likes me. They don't believe that Honey is adulterous or if they asked her questions, they're not intervening on the behalf of our marriage. Would contacting them help? Perhaps I could say that I got a (good) job.
... I don't know. I'm feeling close to powerless to affect Honey's A.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Sapphire -- Thanks for your support. The last two days are the worst I've felt all year. Your posts have kept my spirits up.
I have not shown them proof of the affair. The best proof I have is the readout from the GPS tracker showing our/her car at the OM's house. Showing my IL's that evidence probably wont' help my cause; will only make me seem like a prying creep. The other proof I have isn't really proof: a print out she kept in our/her car from him on her b-day two years ago to a steak joint.
Any advice from the vets is welcome.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Commenters are ignoring my thread, so I'll take the hint: It's time to tell Honey that I'm leading and that I hope she follows; take action and entertain the risks; think that if Honey isn't willing to step up, I will find plenty of beautiful, virtuous women. Maybe not Kurt Russell in Tombstone but Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
The best way for people to see your thread is if you keep posting, ask questions, and detail what is exactly happening. It will be bumped to the top of the stack. I am very concerned for you, and I don't want to see you give up, and feel so low right now.
Let us know how you are feeling, what you are doingm and what your WW is doing.
Ya sorry, maybe some just don't know what to say because there has been no change, I don't know.
Thanks for writing and the support. Honey is fence sitting. She warms up, then cools down. Am I dreaming or something? Did you do this to wheels spinning?
This is driving me crazy. For about two or three hours yesterday, I was depressed. I felt worthless; I wanted to maim and kill the OM; I wanted to humiliate Honey with evidence of her A; I thought divorce would be a relief, the first time I have felt this way.
Then I realized I need to show strength and confidence to Honey. No more messing around; I won't avoid conflict, I'll look for it. Not to be agressive; just assertive. A man in other words.
If this new strength-and-confidence tack fails, I will go to Plan B. I will not tolerate another afternoon like yesterday. It's not worth it.
Quote
If you haven't showed them proof then of course they wont believe you because your wife is telling them all lies.
I've exposed three times already. If I expose again, Honey will file. Trickling it out again will have dubious effects. At least now she's sitting on the fence.
Wheels writes,
The best way for people to see your thread is if you keep posting, ask questions, and detail what is exactly happening. It will be bumped to the top of the stack. I am very concerned for you, and I don't want to see you give up, and feel so low right now.
Quote
Let us know how you are feeling, what you are doingm and what your WW is doing.
I detailed part of my feelings above. I'm also feeling very amorous; like I need to get to know a woman and shower her with affection and love. Most of the time I feel this way toward sweetie. Once in a while, I direct it to a specific woman or two, though the fantasy is never sexual. I am interested to hear commenter's thoughts on this, especially from BH's. I have never read a BH say this: He's getting horny!
------------------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
News update: Honey did take our girls to the carousel on Sunday with the OM. DD3 confirmed it. I suspected that she did, and the truth came out.
After learning about this from DD3, I called Honey. My goal was to be assertive and forceful but not aggressive and overbearing. I don't think that I committed LB's, but you decide for yourself. Here is our exchange:
Quote
Me: DD3 says that another man met you and DD1.5 at the carousel on Sunday. This was [OM's name], right? He lives 4 miles from the park and you would have needed another person to help you with both girls on the carousel.
Her, speaking in a weary and resigned tone: I'm sick and tired of talking with you about this.
Me: I don't want that man around our girls, Honey. I don't want him anywhere near them, much less around you.
Her: I understand. He won't be around our girls.
Me: Good; he's a coward, a cheater, and a freeloader. You tell him I called him a coward. He called me a coward [back in January, after I exposed for the first time]. You tell him I'm ready for him. He might be strong and more experienced as a fighter, but he's got no energy and I'm ready to take him on.
Her, speaking in the same weary, resigned tone: I'm sick and tired of speaking with you about this.
Me: Anything else you want to talk about?
Her: No.
I hung up. I feel conflicted. On the one hand, Honey violated what I told her in July: the OM was not to be around our girls. She was brazen. On the other hand, she was submissive to me for the first time in months.
------------------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I hung up. I feel conflicted. On the one hand, Honey violated what I told her in July: the OM was not to be around our girls. She was brazen. On the other hand, she was submissive to me for the first time in months.
Where you see "submissive", I'm seeing "dismissive".
From what she said, it seemed to me that she was prepared to tell you what you wanted to hear, simply to end the conversation. I did not get the impression that she placed any importance on your request that the OM be kept away from your girls, and your tirade about the OM likely fell on deaf ears.
So, she's saying one thing and doing something else. But that's what WWs do, and you should know that by now.
From what she said, it seemed to me that she was prepared to tell you what you wanted to hear, simply to end the conversation. I did not get the impression that she placed any importance on your request that the OM be kept away from your girls, and your tirade about the OM likely fell on deaf ears.
So, she's saying one thing and doing something else. But that's what WWs do, and you should know that by now.
So, what are YOU going to do?
I've got ideas. I could call him up and tell him not to mess with my girls. I could file a restraining order against him. What do you propose doing?
My IL's arrive tomorrow from the Midwest. They're going with Honey to the beach for a week. That's one wild card in my dealings with Honey and the OM. That gives me leverage of a kind ... or not.
------------------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Where you see "submissive", I'm seeing "dismissive".
From what she said, it seemed to me that she was prepared to tell you what you wanted to hear, simply to end the conversation. I did not get the impression that she placed any importance on your request that the OM be kept away from your girls, and your tirade about the OM likely fell on deaf ears.
So, she's saying one thing and doing something else. But that's what WWs do, and you should know that by now.
Man in Motion was correct. She was dismissive more than submissive. I talked with Honey again on Friday night about the OM being. She rescinded her remark that the OM would not be around DD3 and DD1. While she agreed that each of us has a say in whom our girls see, she basically said that the OM can be around our kids.
Her response is unacceptable. At a minimum, I am thinking seriously about Plan D. If she she thinks the OM is good enough for our girls, what hope is there for our marriage? Also, we've only been married 5.5 years. Honey has been with him for 1.5 years. I'm worried that Honey would love only under certain subjective conditions - I made enough money, things weren't too tough for her, etc.
Beyond that, I plan to tell Honey that I will no longer give full dollar amounts for daycare for DD3 because I found a publicly funded preschool school for her.
I'm conflicted. I do not want to divorce Honey. Being without her and our girls would be horrible for me, akin to severing one of my limbs. But the Om being around our girls is also unacceptable. She's crossed a major line.
We also argued about this on the phone for 10 minutes. I blasted the OM, said he abandoned his teenage kids in another state; she said all of her friends and family advise her to divorce me. I told her that schoolbus advised: If we divorce, this won't be a fanatasy divorce. I would go for full custody, child support and spousal support. Honey blew her stack at that last claim; said I was "f____ng deadbeat."
Yet today picking up our girls she was perfvectly civil and down to earth and accommodating.
------------------------------------------------ Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I talked with Honey again on Friday night about the OM being. She rescinded her remaark that the OM would not be around DD3 and DD1. While she agreed that each of us has a say in whom our girls see, she basically said that the OM can be around our kids.
IMO it's time to look into that restraining order.
IMO it's time to look into that restraining order.
Establishing my boundaries with Honey is part of the stick of a good Plan. But is filing a restraining order also part of it?
My sense is that Dr. H advises that whenever possible don't go the legal route, as it makes the WW want to file. I don't know. Having the OM around DD3 and DD1.5 is unacceptable. And my Taker has had enough of Honey's boundary pushing.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I have been following your thread and have been meaning to post to you for awhile, but have been busy and have used my time here to post on a few other people's threads. Also, have been busy with my DS24 in playing dad again, as he is staying with me now while looking for a new job and getting over a relationship end (with a female 10 years older - ugh!).
I haven't read Harley's articles for awhile on the concepts, but I cannot imagine that advising against legal action pertaining to the protection of your family is one of the no-no's. I think the advice against legal action pertains to seeking a D and not to protecting children, especially very your children. As I recall awhile back you were concerned about the possibility of inappropriate touching. Even if this is only an unsubstantiated concern (which hopefully it is) I would seek a restraining order like yesterday no matter what your W's reaction may be. This is your right and your obligation as a dad. As I also recall, when you first voiced your concern about your W allowing your DD's to be around the OM you had quite abit of support here. Then you sort of trailed off in following thru, and I believe that caused you to lose the support of the experienced vets here. Just my opinion.
MJ, if I were in your shoes I would arrange a face-to-face meeting with her parents and her sister, if they are in the area now while at the beach, to re-expose, especially in regard to her allowing their granddaughters to be around this guy. Use whatever evidence you have. In the meeting you will of course have to be factual, cool, and persuasive, no matter what the history is between you and them. Last I saw was a statistic that, although there are many people who do engage in an A, nearly 90% of adult americans believe that an affair is simply immoral and wrong. I think the sentiment would be a little higher if young children are exposed to an affair partner. Ugh! I just think if you start taking some positive action, MJ, that you will have alot more support.
In my short while here I have seen quite a number of people, especially the BH's, come here and just fade away. I believe that happens because, although they may possess the desire and the knowledge, they don't have the will - the will to do the right thing even tho there may be a price.
Well, admittedly MJ, I don't have the experience to offer as the true vets here do. The only thing I can offer is my observations, my suppor,t and hopefully a little inspiration.
If this man does something to your kids, it will be YOUR fault for failing to do anything about it.
Think about it.
As far as losing your W and kids being like losing a limb:
It�s not. Stop the drama. You will get over your wife. Trust me. But as far as your kids, that�s on you to make it happen. Being prepared and having a good lawyer will secure your rights as a dad.
MiM, Tom2010, wheels, and help -- Thanks for your advice. I'll look into the restraining order. A couple of my friends are lawyers; I will ask them.
I don't want to go the legal route, as I think it increases my chance of a divorce and thus deprives my daughters, for the time being at least, of growing up in a household headed by their biological mother and father. But you are right: Having the OM around my two young daughters is unacceptable.
Tom2010 writes,
Quote
f I were in your shoes I would arrange a face-to-face meeting with her parents and her sister, if they are in the area now while at the beach, to re-expose, especially in regard to her allowing their granddaughters to be around this guy. Use whatever evidence you have. In the meeting you will of course have to be factual, cool, and persuasive, no matter what the history is between you and them. Last I saw was a statistic that, although there are many people who do engage in an A, nearly 90% of adult americans believe that an affair is simply immoral and wrong. I think the sentiment would be a little higher if young children are exposed to an affair partner. Ugh! I just think if you start taking some positive action, MJ, that you will have alot more support.
Does this scenario have ANY likelihood of success? My IL's ignored my exposure letter, sent in February; refused to talk with me; and I don't know, exactly, where they are staying. If the vets know of anyone who's had success re-exposing, I would consider talking with my IL's.
The problem with my IL's isn't their moral philosophy. It's their epistemology. My IL's are in serious denial. Like the vast majority of Americans, they consider adultery wrong, as they would consider child molestation wrong. But they would never consider that their child is guilty of such a thing.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
What is the current arrangement with your kids? Are they split evenly with you? Are they fulltime with you with visits to her?
She left, which gives you grounds to file.
You�re in a state of denial right now and as a result you�re not protecting yourself or your kids.
Get this through your head: She isn�t going to magically wake up until you pull out the legal 2x4s, which means filing restraining orders against OM and filing abandonment charges against her and seeking spousal support.
That, combined with a Plan B, will do more for waking her up than the non plan you�re following right now. Hope is not a plan.
What is the current arrangement with your kids? Are they split evenly with you? Are they fulltime with you with visits to her?
She left, which gives you grounds to file.
We're separated informally. She gets our girls 4.5 days a week, I get 'em 2.5 days a week.
She left the house, in October '09. I moved out of that house in June of this year.
I looked into filing a restraining order in my state (D.C.) and their state (Virginia). Filing takes about two days, of court appearances and filling out forms. In D.C., filing temporary restraining order and a preliminary injunction plus paying a server fee costs $300. That's a lot of time and money. But I am preppared to do it.
As for me getting tough with Honey, I told her last week thatif she filed for divorce, I would file for the whole enchilada: full custody, child support, and spousal support. She hit the roof on that last one. "Effing deadbeat," she said. To the the guy who's paid her on time and enough for her to cover expenses since after she moved out. Typical wayturd.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
As a follow up to the restraining order idea, I have a question about the tactics. Should I just file OR tell her that unless she agrees that the OM can no longer be around our kids, I will file? I'm guessing the former.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
What you need to do is file an immediate return of your girls to the marital home.
WW'es greatest tonic for the fantasy idiocy they're stuck in is a man who stands up and fights and the realization that they could lose everything.
i'm not telling you to file for D. I am telling you that you need to file to have your daughters returned to the marital home.
That, combined with a restraining order, is a big wake up. If you don't have a court order that says she gets the kids, then nothing prevents you from keeping them in your home when they are with you.
Talk it over with a lawyer first, but you can and should have the children in the marital home.
To be honest I have no idea how a meeting like that would turn out, but if I were in your shoes I would simply give it a shot. I am by far not an expert, just thinking what I would do, and just taking an honest and direct approach even tho there are no guarantees. Yea, I could understand your IL's feelings that their daughter could not do wrong, at least initially, but after that You have nothing to lose. The only thing I could suggest is to have pretty convincing evidence, even it if was a statement from your older duaghter, altho very young, that yes your wife exposed her to another man, period. You simply have to use your best judgement MJ.
I strongly advise you to listen up and really hear the advice from "helpthelostdads". I have seen his posts before, and he is dedicated and honest and unwavering. If I were in your shoes MJ, he would be my coach.
I understand what you are going thru - a threatening life change - that is what it is. We are all going thru that in one way or another, so just please take heart and get greaed up and follow the advice here is best I can say. As I told you awhile ago, am rooting for you but you have to step up/
You do not know what a court will rule until the court rules. First of all, you are not divorced, you are not even legally separated.
1. You need to get an attorney and tell that attorney what YOU want.
2. You need to go Plan B with Honey, now. No more Mr. Nice Guy, because Honey reads this as "Doormat".
3. No more financial gifts.
4. You now work out a NEW financial deal, immediately, that splits the costs of the kids. Period. She makes more money, she does more lifting. Sorry Honey, that's the way of the NEW world, the REAL world. If she doesn't like it, she can also find an attorney. That attorney will tell her that the cow ate the cabbage that way, too, because it is the trend of the courts.
5. I would say to you that if you have any shot with her, you need to be a STEEL CURTAIN, and show her that you are through messing around. She needs to see nothing but a wall when she looks your way. PERIOD. Find that within you, or this woman will eat you alive in divorce court.
6. The marital home is not a "place". It is a concept.
You will pay a huge amount of child support, putting you in financial straights, because you are being Mr. Niceguy.
You will let your WW control when and where you get to see your kids.
You will watch as she replaces you with another man and have him become the new daddy for the kids, all while being supported by you.
Enjoy.
You've been warned, but you continue to sit in denial. The $10k-$20k you pay now for equal time with your kids will pay for itself in all the CS you will save yourself.
More importantly, your kids will have a father who they see regularly, can actually afford to buy them things and take them places, and who is emotionally healthy because he's not broke and is able to see his children.
But your alternative is what i mentioned. That's the path you're on and it's because you fail to do what you must.
Guess which one I was?
Both of those. I was first just like you and about a year after our D I woke up and fought for time with my kids. I'd don't have 50/50, but it's close.
Guess which one I prefer?
I would have saved much more money if I had fought from the start and would have had much more time with my kids when they were little.
To be honest I have no idea how a meeting like that would turn out, but if I were in your shoes I would simply give it a shot. I am by far not an expert, just thinking what I would do, and just taking an honest and direct approach even tho there are no guarantees. Yea, I could understand your IL's feelings that their daughter could not do wrong, at least initially, but after that You have nothing to lose. The only thing I could suggest is to have pretty convincing evidence, even it if was a statement from your older duaghter, altho very young, that yes your wife exposed her to another man, period. You simply have to use your best judgement MJ.
My IL's will stay at a hotel in D.C. on Saturday. Seeing them then would be my best shot. Not a good or even decent shot, but a shot just the same. Now I just need to find out where they're staying for the night.
schoolbus writes,
Quote
2. You need to go Plan B with Honey, now. No more Mr. Nice Guy, because Honey reads this as "Doormat".
3. No more financial gifts.
4. You now work out a NEW financial deal, immediately, that splits the costs of the kids. Period. She makes more money, she does more lifting. Sorry Honey, that's the way of the NEW world, the REAL world. If she doesn't like it, she can also find an attorney. That attorney will tell her that the cow ate the cabbage that way, too, because it is the trend of the courts.
I tend to agree with you. Plan B is the best way to go. Honey has no respect for me at all, to the point that she exposes her AP to our kids. That's ridiculous. Now I just need to make arrangements with her to pick up the kids and get friends who could serve as IM's for me. This will take time.
As for the finances, are you saying that I should give Honey no money at all for our mutual expenses, such as day care and credit card loans?
Also, I would be interested in reading your thoughts about Honey's reaction to my we-can-still-have-a-great marriage speech and request that she write me a letter. She was feeling guilty and just throwing me relationship crumbs, right?
Helpthelostdads writes,
Quote
You will surrender your kids to your WW.
You will pay a huge amount of child support, putting you in financial straights, because you are being Mr. Niceguy.
You will let your WW control when and where you get to see your kids.
You will watch as she replaces you with another man and have him become the new daddy for the kids, all while being supported by you.
Enjoy.
Honey would not get everything she wanted, because the laws in D.C. and Virginia are fairly equitable. But you're right: Honey is getting her way right now. She dictates when I get to the seek our kids. And she dictates whom the kids see. That's unacceptable.
By the way, I read some more last night about filing a restraining order. To play the devil's advocate, On what legal grounds would a judge grant my request that the OM should be prevented from having contact with DD3 and DD1.5? The OM hasn't hurt them; he hasn't touched them inappropriately; he hasn't threatened them.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I recently found out that my wife was having an affair.We are in the process of rebuliding, but it has only been 3 weeks since I found out. I have not read all of the books yet, but I wanted to know is there any information on telling the OM wife about the affair? I want to tell her but I am not sure it would be right to do. We all work for the same company so it may spread like fire if she tells anyone else.
I recently found out that my wife was having an affair.We are in the process of rebuliding, but it has only been 3 weeks since I found out. I have not read all of the books yet, but I wanted to know is there any information on telling the OM wife about the affair? I want to tell her but I am not sure it would be right to do. We all work for the same company so it may spread like fire if she tells anyone else.
Please start your own thread rather than seek advice on Michael's. You will get a lot more responses and a lot more useful advice.
Quick update: Joyce Harley sent me an email saying I could be on the show Thursday. But I'm hoping for Friday. I could use Dr. H's advice. Stay tuned.
Another update: I'm reading, and enjoying, "The Love Dare." Will it be of use during Plan B? Here's hoping.
By the by, I'm following in Sick of Limbo's steps on both moves, though I talked with Dr. H on the phone before I started this thread.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Click the "live program" link between 1 and 2pm central time. After that the show is replayed every hour for the next 23 through the "rebroadcast" link.
I stream the station through winamp - but I'm not sure what other programs will play it as well.
By the way, I read some more last night about filing a restraining order. To play the devil's advocate, On what legal grounds would a judge grant my request that the OM should be prevented from having contact with DD3 and DD1.5? The OM hasn't hurt them; he hasn't touched them inappropriately; he hasn't threatened them.
IMHO you WON'T get a restraining order unless something has happened. Just because you THINK something might happen or you don't LIKE your children being around OM is not grounds for a TRO.
However... you CAN get a TRO (the T is for temporary) if you were to file for divorce. Most divorce/custody statutes provide for provisional standard language about members of the opposite sex while the divorce is pending and until everything is resolved. Sometimes that language can carry over to the final order.
This should not stop you however from going foward with getting tough on Honey. You're going to end up exactly like Help says if you don't get proactive ASAP.
This should not stop you however from going forward with getting tough on Honey. You're going to end up exactly like Help says if you don't get proactive ASAP.
Thanks for writing princessmeggy. It's good to hear from you again.
My Giver wants to reason woo and reason with Honey. I want to invite her to go to the theater, which she loves. I want to explain to her what I've learned about the necessities for a great marriage. And I want to apologize for committing LB's, mostly AO and DJ, when I told her that the OM was not to be around our kids.
But my Taker realizes that Honey has rejected each and every one of my entreaties since I've been in Plan A. She choked up and shed a tear when I made my we-can-still-have-a-great-marriage speech. But that's it. She cares so little about me that she has the OM, who abandoned his wife and two teenage kids in another state, around DD3 and DD1.5. She's nuts. Or should I say, still lost in the fog.
Yes, I plan to go to Plan B. In fact, I hope to meet tonight with another couple who could serve as our IM. Getting tougher with Honey is the best course. I understand that, even if my Giver dislikes it.
But honestly, I am wary of filing for custody of the kids for the following reasons:
1. Our kids are with Honey 4.5 days out of the week and have done so for almost 11 months. Under Virginia and D.C. law, I can't return them to the marital home. The marital home is Honey's apartment.
2. My lawyer said that custody would cost $10k-$12k. I don't have that kind of money. How could I raise it?
3. A custody action, imho, would turn into a nasty, protracted brawl, one not conducive to marital reconciliation.
However, the above assumptions and assertions may well be misplace and wrong. Bring out your 2x4's. I can take it.
I have a scheduled talk on the radio tomorrow with Dr. H. I'll hear what he has to say.
----------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Man, Michael, I have been following this for quite some time and based on the wealth of knowledge I have gleaned from the wise people on this board (and my own personal experience), I would offer the following opinion on your points:
2. My lawyer said that custody would cost $10k-$12k. I don't have that kind of money. How could I raise it? Some attorneys will work with you on payment plans. I would stretch myself (my financial position) to do this. Custody is something you want to pursue now. Not have to go back later and try to alter.
3. A custody action, imho, would turn into a nasty, protracted brawl, one not conducive to marital reconciliation. I am not as educated on the MB concepts, but offer (perhaps of some value) outsider's opinion: I don't see reconciliation occurring. She has made that pretty clear in her words. I am suspicious of her actions that make you think there is hope. I see it more as a means to get where she wants to go -- the end of your marriage.
Take it with a grain of salt. Just an opinion. Hope is never a bad thing in itself; just remember to be 'cautiously guarded' with your heart.
don't see reconciliation occurring. She has made that pretty clear in her words. I am suspicious of her actions that make you think there is hope. I see it more as a means to get where she wants to go -- the end of your marriage.
You might be right. She might not want to reconcile.
Still, Dr Harley says I need to stick to Plan A; Mrs. Harley added that I should find a support group to reduce my intensity and anger. He said the OM might show his true colors to Honey and that I should be ready when he does.
I appeared on the first half hour of the show; the show should play throughout the wekend.
As I am at work, I can't write too long. More to come.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Of course the Harleys are the experts, I am merely a layman. But my instinct, and again from my super-limited perspective of your exact situation, is that if the OM does show his true colors, and if Honey then did come back to you, it would only be until she met another OM.... She wants out; the OM is simply the guy who was there. There is nothing special about him, in fact, as you have shown, he is a dirtbag. I think she wants out, is co-dependent, and will latch onto another if she ditches the current OM. Her 'playing nice' with you is a means to get what she wants -- termination of your marriage. I think if Honey is ever to really realize just how kind and loving you are it will take several relationships with multiple OMs to see that they are the type of guys who are using her like the current OM is. What kind of scum would date a married woman, and willingly participate in breaking up a family? (answer: the worst kind).
Please don't let me words be anything more than just another person offering an opinion. I just know that I care about you. You appear to be a kind, caring person who has been crushed. I've been there, can feel your pain. My take now is regarding your daughters. Since you know Honey is taking this destructive path in ther life, your primary mission is to protect your daughters from 'learning through observing her' as much as possible. Best case scenario: you get 50% custody and they grow up seeing you being the 'right' kind of person. When they get older, they will understand what really happened.
from my super-limited perspective of your exact situation, is that if the OM does show his true colors, and if Honey then did come back to you, it would only be until she met another OM.... She wants out; the OM is simply the guy who was there. There is nothing special about him, in fact, as you have shown, he is a dirtbag. I think she wants out, is co-dependent, and will latch onto another if she ditches the current OM. Her 'playing nice' with you is a means to get what she wants -- termination of your marriage. I think if Honey is ever to really realize just how kind and loving you are it will take several relationships with multiple OMs to see that they are the type of guys who are using her like the current OM is. What kind of scum would date a married woman, and willingly participate in breaking up a family? (answer: the worst kind).
There is truth in your statements. Honey is co-dependent; she bought and read books on co-dependency, as her father was an alcoholic until the moment she was born; the OM is the worst kind of person, which is to say someone who acts diabolically; and Honey may be prone to A's.
That said, Honey can be won over. All it will take are two things: her breaking up with the OM and me getting a chance to apply Dr. Harley's principles toward recover. She can never contact the OM again. We will have to spend 15 hours of undvided time each week. And I need to meet all of her EN's without committing LB's. Read Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair.
Thanks for the kind words about my character. Please put my family in your prayers. We need all of the help we can get.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Wow, has been a busy last few days for me - long hours yesterday and today cleaning including the oven.
Thank you for your comment on my story about my son. I just have not been able to update thru today, but yes maybe I should move that thread. I will be in a better position tomorrow to do that.
MJ, my thought is to go to Plan B asap. If you have 'schoolbus' on here advising you, well from what I have seen she does not comment that much, but since she did, I would listen with an eager ear.
Just read, listen, and do the best you can. Your WW is Not the enemy, but right now she is acting very arrogant, and very sleazy.
First of all I want to say that I am glad you are still here. As you have probably sumrmized from your time on here so many BS's, especially BH's, appear, state their case, and then ride into the sunset. Have you wondered what ever became of them, their marriages, and their kids? You are still here and that is good.
Did you attempt to have a face to face with your IL's? And, if so how did it go? I think right now you are partly feeling the lask of support.
MJ, today I am looking forward to viewing some NFL games on opening Sunday. Ya know what, some of those teams are going to lose today simply because the head coach deviated from his game plan unnecessarily. Like MN the other night in abandoning the run and attempting to rely on a codger for QB! You seem to be deviating from yours now as well. MJ, I have a daughter, and she is doing well, but I would not want her around a POSOM whether she was age 3.0 or age 27.0. And, I think that daughters look up to dads to protect them from whoever - a predator, a WW, or simply natural disaster.
I think maybe that the talk about co-dependency sort of turned your head for awhile. Imho, there is not such a thing as co-dependency. It is not a disease, a condition, or a mindset. It is an excuse. I am a recovering alcoholic, and I have heard, discussed, and thought about this term for quite awhile. It is an influence of one person on another more than anything else. Early in my recovery my wife told the counselor we were going to for family aftercare that this concept was BS, and that the reason she stayed was hope, not co-dependency. Your W is not pre-programmed or conditioned to have an affair and expose your daughters to another 'dad'. She has the free-will and the option every hour of every day to elect to honor her family, not to elect to degrade them, or herself.
MJ, you need to forget about this as an excuse, and go back and listen again to what 'helpthelostdads' and others here are telling you. You are deviating from your game plan.
Good luck to you, but man, if you do not fight I can assure you that you will wake up one morning when you are age 45 and wonder 'wa happened'.
MJ, my thought is to go to Plan B asap. If you have 'schoolbus' on here advising you, well from what I have seen she does not comment that much, but since she did, I would listen with an eager ear.
This was my thought too. Most commenters, including the inimitable schoolbus, have advised me to go to Plan B. Doing so makes sense to me. Honey is disrespectful and arrogant. I hate our sitch, not least because the OM is King Sleazy.
But then on Friday I talked with Dr. Harley himself on his radio show. To my surprise, he did not advise going to Plan B. "Keep on doing what you're doing," he said. "If and when she breaks off with this guy, be there for her." However, Dr. H cautioned that Plan B may be in my future. His message was to go to Plan A as long as possible. If memory serves, Steve Harley recommended that SickofLimbo stick with Plan A longer than he expected and perhaps wanted.
I'm caught in the thorns of a dilemma. Stick with Plan A and annoy most of the commenters, whose support and advice I need. Go to Plan B and act counter to the man whose books, articles, and radio show I admire. For now, I'm sticking with Plan A. I may be doing the wrong thing, but if my marriage ends, it won't be for a lack of sage advice and action.
For those interested in listening to my appearance, follow the link and click on the first two segments (091010_A.mp3 and 091010_B.mp3) http://richwith.com/mb/radio/09-14-10/
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
My hat off to you that you have been consulting the DDR's Harley. I would just humbly suggest to you to not let yourself be at all conflicted between any of comments from any of the people here and the professionals - i.e., the Harley's. None of the members here have talked to you in person, so it is extremely difficult for anyone to give advice online despite their personal experience.
I am just curious tho as to how you do a PLan A if you two are separated. I think this would be valuable information, not only for you, but for some others here.
Right now god my back is hurting. No not looking for any sympathy but this is my time to clean the condo - the fall - and I feel I am not as young as I thing I am..*s*
Keep trudging MJ, I feel you can come out of this with your scalp still on and even more..
Thanks for your support and advice. I look forward to reading your thread every day; your references to the NFL and movies from the '60s always bring a smile to my face.
I will keep trudging. Don't worry. I'm not giving up on saving my family and marriage. The only things I worry about and regret are two things: my previous mistakes in our marriage, such as working on a Saturday morning in our basement when Honey took care of our girls upstairs; and not having the best strategy for winning her back.
You write,
Quote
I am just curious tho as to how you do a PLan A if you two are separated. I think this would be valuable information, not only for you, but for some others here.
This is a good question. I don't have a great answer. My plan has been twofold: Eliminate my obvious LB's; and fulfill whatever EN's I can.
In the latter case, I have called Honey four or five times a week to talk, mostly about the kids; give her gifts, write letters to her, and tell her our marriage can still be great. Lately, I have attempted to be more thoughtful with Honey.
Next time I see her, I plan to ask her to go to see a Shakespeare play in the city. She will likely say no, but at least I will have planted a seed.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
My wife is having an affair with a coworker. It began as an emotional affair almost 2 years ago and likely turned physical almost a year ago, when she moved out of our home with our two young daughters. After exposing to all of their family members and many friends, I have been in Plan A for four months. But I'm not sure I can do it any longer after I discovered that the Other Man spent an afternoon with my wife and daughters at a park. In my opinion, I have five options:
1. Ask my wife again, without committing love busters, to not have the Other Man around our girls.
2. Ask a friend to ask the boss of my wife and the other man to transfer the other man to a different company within the same corporation.
3. Go to Plan B.
4. Go to Plan B and file for custody of our daughters.
5. Expose again to my in-laws, who are in town for the weekend.
What does Dr. Harley recommend I do?
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
On his show Friday, Dr. Harley advised me to wait until my wife breaks off her A with the OM. In SAA, he noted, Sue returned to John because Greg dumped her for another woman. Greg considered Sue to be too depressed and complained too much about missing her kids. This got me thinking.
Now I have a question for former WW's and any OM's. Other than exposure, what caused you to break off your A and return to your spouse?
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
well I am not an OM (nor a WW for that matter), so I can offer no first hand experience. But I would venture to say that at or near the top of the list of reasons they might end their affair is the shocking reality that a divorce would mean significantly less time with their kids! Not the reason you want to play out (like her coming back because she realized her true love for you), but a reason nevertheless. The good thing is that regardless of reason, if she comes back you have time to develop an affair-proof marriage.
I'm in a strange form of Plan A. I still love Honey and am reading "The Love Dare" to learn how to show her my love. For example, I calmly asked her on Saturday to see a Shakespeare show downtown and sent her a humorous email. And I go days without communicating with her, though I still want to communicate with her. So following the advice of Dr. H, I am being a loving, strong, patient husband.
Yet Honey has not responded to any of my efforts. On Saturday, she rejected my offer to go out, saying it under her breath and walking away from me. And the last three days, she has not returned my call or email.
Until proven otherwise, I will assume she is lost in the fog. I don't know what else it could be. Your comments of our sitch are welcome.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
I forgot to mention something in my post yesterday: Honey can file for D unilaterally on October 18. This fact likely explains her deeper emotional distance from me. But it also offers hope for our marriage. Would she not want to get a commitment from the OM to marry her before she files?
My assumption is that the OM will not commit to her, that they will fight, and this could blow up their A. If anyone has experienced or heard about this sitch, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. --------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Honestly, I say it doesn't matter. You still have an active A so you stick to YOUR plans regardless of what Honey is doing. Plan A and then Plan B. That's it, that's all. There is no, "If I do this, this will happen. When they do this, this will happen." Stick to your plans. If you follow along with what Honey is doing, you are going to follow her down a pit of despair. Just focus on YOUR plans and move forward. Don't get stuck in the wayward quicksand.
Thanks for the encouragement. I am still in Plan A and moving forward, despite the fact that all my friends and family members want me to go to Plan FU or a modified Plan B.
Now I need to stick to my guns when I ask Honey that I need another half day with the kids. I pay half the costs of our childcare; I should get half the time with our girls. I'm feeling strong and confident, so I'm ready for any fog babble or verbal insults.
Sick of Limbo wrote that his WW crashed their car this weekend. Well, my WW had her beloved laptop computer stolen. Yep, someone broke into her apartment and took her computer, which she bought for about a $1,000 a month before she moved out. This was the computer that she used to communicate with her coworker lover. But it was also the computer that she stored pictures of our girls, especially DD1.5.
The theft seemed to lift some of Honey's fog. The night after it happened, she talked with me half an hour while picking up our girls. She hadn't talked to me that long in months. She was like her old self -- sweet, understanding, generous. She offered to let me take DD3 out on Sundays, when she has her.
However, Honey was not like her old self enough. I mentioned at the end of our talk about having a great marriage. She said, "There's not much to talk about." She also rejected my attempt to hug her after telling me about the theft.
All I did was to listen to her, talk about how I would like our girls to be raised, and project empathy for her sitch. I called her later that night to check in again. I wanted to be a loving, strong, patient husband. Yet I don't think that meeting her immediate EN's is possible; she's still too distant from me and doesn't fully respect me. So I didn't call her last night.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Honestly, I don't think your Plan A is working, MichaelJan. It seems that she is annoyed by your calls (4-5 a week you say) and I think you are actually doing more damage than good - it doesn't sound like she has responded well to it at all. Have you thought about an end date for Plan A? Plan B might bring her to her senses. At this point, you have nothing to lose. She's moved out a year ago and has no problem rubbing your nose in her adultery. Show her you respect yourself enough to not accept her behavior any more. Stand up for yourself. I think she definitely thinks she can walk all over you. And I can see why she thinks that.
Honestly, I don't think your Plan A is working, MichaelJan. It seems that she is annoyed by your calls (4-5 a week you say) and I think you are actually doing more damage than good - it doesn't sound like she has responded well to it at all. Have you thought about an end date for Plan A? Plan B might bring her to her senses. At this point, you have nothing to lose. She's moved out a year ago and has no problem rubbing your nose in her adultery. Show her you respect yourself enough to not accept her behavior any more. Stand up for yourself. I think she definitely thinks she can walk all over you. And I can see why she thinks that.
Dr. Harley says to stay in Plan A as long as possible. He knows me as well as anyone associated with MB, as I've called his show five times and sent him an email that was read on air. So I will stay in Plan A.
But you're right: Honey doesn't respect me; and I need to stand up for myself. I've been too soft with her. FWIW, I call her twice a week; and plan to tell her tomorrow or Wednesday night about the fact that I need more time with our daughters or she will get less money. And yes, if she files and continues to disrespect me, I'm going to Plan B.
Then I wish you luck. My opinion is that it will not work because you are too focused on your "love" for her that it's blinding you from seeing the situation objectively. Imagine if you were addicted to heroin and it made you happier, higher than you'd ever felt. Then imagine if your partner kept politely asking you to stop. You wouldn't pay much attention in the face of the much stronger urge to FEEL GOOD. It would take your partner putting her foot down and calling an intervention, and telling you PLAINLY and CLEARLY that your behavior was unacceptable, and if you didn't change, she was going to leave you, for you to have a CHANCE of changing.
This is your situation with her. She is an addict. And think of it this way: you are failing her and doing her a disservice every minute you don't stand up, man up, and start calling the shots and telling her how things are going to go down. YOU CAN DO THAT. But you are choosing not to. You are NOT a victim, and you OWN the way you act to your WW.
Also, I never buy the line that "if she does X, THEN I will man up and tell her what for". What, like a year of her living separately, continuing to f%^k her OM, flaunt him in front of your children, and having you finance her A isn't enough disrespect to last 10 men a lifetime? Think about what your children are learning through your inaction. Would you want them to go through something like what you've gone through?
This is your situation with her. She is an addict. And think of it this way: you are failing her and doing her a disservice every minute you don't stand up, man up, and start calling the shots and telling her how things are going to go down. YOU CAN DO THAT. But you are choosing not to. You are NOT a victim, and you OWN the way you act to your WW.
I acknowledge that I have not stood up to her enough. FWIW, I plan to tell her tomorrow that I need more time with our girls or she will get less money from me. That's taking a stand.
But my other options are limited. Divorce her? Nope. Go to Plan B. Nope, says Dr. Harley, who says I should stay the course. Beat up the OM? Nope.
By the way, Dr. Harley said to wait for a break in her A; for the OM to screw up. That sounds like good advice to me. It worked for John in his relationship with Sue in Surviving an Affair.
If you can think of other ways to man up without committing LB's, I'd like to hear them.
P.S. The old link to my radio appearance is broken. Here's hoping this one works: http://richwith.com/mb/radio/oldershows/09-14-10/ Click on segments A and B. --------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
An update: I haven't called or contacted Honey since late Saturday night. My goal is to win back her respect of me (and perhaps my self respect as well). I know that Scotland and others say that a wayward's responses matter little in a Plan A or Plan B, but I also think that Honey's disrespect of me decreased the odds that she would want to reconcile.
That said, I plan to call Honey tonight. Our childcare sitch needs to change. She can't have the kids two thirds of the time and pay only half the costs. However, I will talk with her without committing any LB's.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
A hope and a bad reminder: Honey asked me today to go trick or treating with our girls in my neighborhood for Halloween; she agreed yesterday to pay $400 more a month for our joint costs because she spends more time with them; she chatted me up for half an hour today, and would have kept going if a repairman wasn't at my house. All those things suggested that the fog is lifting. Then she said, after I told her that I had read a book of hers, that she read it "when we were married." Great.
I would like to think my Plan A is working, but likely she wants to play nice before filing for D later this month.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Well, I can certainly see your dilemnma regarding your Plan A. By the way, I do not believe that you are going to 'annoy' anyone here by choosing to stay in the Plan A for abit longer. The two things I would be concerned about with her living apart are: 1) the ability to monitor contact, and to guage whether or not the affair is becoming more entrenched or weakening, and 2) having an open-ended Plan A in terms of the time. I feel the latter opens you up to guaging your actions based on her behavior.
Other than that MJ, just keep trudging and best wishes.
I think you�re supporting the affair and living in fantasy land that she�s going to suddenly wake up and return.
You�ve allowed her to leave with your kids.
What to do? Get a lawyer and file for a motion to have the children immediately returned to the marital home. File for abandonment and adultery and request child support.
THAT is her wakeup.
When she calls livid, tell her you�re giving her what she wants, not what you want. She wants to end the marriage. Ok. But you, as a father, aren�t going to be playing second fiddle in your kids lives and you will not permit them to be exposed to her adultery.
I think this Plan A is dead. Doing what you�re doing will simply end up with a precedent where you don�t have your kids 50/50 and you support her with most of your paycheck while she shacks up with OM.
I think it is time for Plan B with a massive hammer. You can always let her know that you don�t want to go down this path in your Plan B letter, but I see no other option for you.
Thanks for the advice. I will address it later tonight. In the meantime, I got news: the OM no longer works with Honey.
He got a new job. It can't be in the same city as her; according to the company's website, it's 20 miles away.
This development can't be good for their A. It's gotta be bad. Honey is no longer the hot chick in the office; she's the old flame whom he no longer sees five days a week. He's likely to move on to the new chicas. I could be wrong; he may want to keep seeing her. But this must be a disruption that Honey didn't anticipate, and is ticked off about. Finally, some reality intruded on Affair Island.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
"This development can't be good for their A. It's gotta be bad."
Hi MJ,
Well, maybe, and maybe not. I agree with 'help' in that this is wishful thinking, and I can understand why you are engaging in that. Point is that he may have left for a better job with her approval, they have figured out how to continue the affair unimpeded, and 20 miles is not a long distance away.
This development may turn out to be good, or it may not. The only one who can answer that is your W. It seems that lately too many NFL coaches end up flummoxed by trying to outguess the opposing defense rather than simply staying with the strengths of their teams and what is working.
The best to you MJ, but I just wish you would play to your strengths instead of trying to outguess the opposition.
Yeah, I cop to the charge. I have a tendency to be clueless and naive. Also, Honey likely still is seeing him. For the first time in two years, she has talked in the past few weeks about finding a new job in the future.
I do think that he won't commit to marrying her; that he will find a new woman soon; and their A will end sooner rather than later. He has long been her "work husband."
That said, I will stop writing about my guesses of their sitch. And I will keep with my Plan A. Which at the advice of Dr. H, schoolbus, you, and others, is to be a strong, loving, patient husband.
I am doing and being all those things. And I'm not calling her regularly, giving her flowers, or speeches. I'm just frustrated that I can't do more to get my family back and make it better than ever. Hence the guessing games.
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Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Thanks for writing. I talked with their boss twice, implying that they were having an A, and exposed to a close former colleague of theirs.
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Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Do you have 50/50 custody? Have you filed legal papers to get the kids returned to the home?
Here�s your reality:
She�s out of the house. She�s already emotionally checked out. She�s playing in the big leagues and you�re still stuck in the minors hoping for a shot at The Show. The reality is that there is NOTHING that gives her an incentive to return to you.
You are financing her affair, have given up your kids, and are sitting idly by with hope in your hand. How is that going for you?
Time to wake up from the fantasy and follow a real plan. Plan A when she�s out of the house and hope aren�t a plan.
I don�t know how much more clearly I need to say this. SHE�S MOVED OUT, WITH YOUR KIDS. THE AFFAIR CONTIUES AND YOU�RE SETTING A LEGAL PRECEDENT WHERE SHE IS THE PRIMARY CARETAKER OF THE KIDS.
Path you�re on? You will be divorced, paying child support out of your nose, separated from kids you rarely see. That�s your glidepath.
Time to take action, my friend. Plan B with an appropriate letter followed by legal action to get your kids back in your house.
You're right: My reality sucks. She's out of the house. I don't have 50/50 custody. (I'm not financing the affair; I pay for my share of child care and joint debts). And believe me, if she files, I will fight like hell to get the best custody arrangement for my kids and myself. Your advice will come in handy, so I appreciate your help.
That said, Dr. H himself says to stay in Plan A and not file for custody or go to Plan B. He's not just any joe blow; he's Dr. H. He's not infallible, but he created this site for heaven's sake. Please go ahead and listen to my appearance last month on his radio show. Your beef seems to be more with Dr. H's advice than my approach, imho.
FWIW, Honey is not as foggy as other WW's. She invited me to go trick or treating with our kids in MY neighborhood. And the OM no longer works with her. Does this mean she won't file in mid-October? Who knows, but I like my chances better now, per Dr. H's advice, than if I had filed for custody or gone to Plan B.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: Fall '09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Just hope you are doing well on this Friday night.
Hey MJ, I truely have hope for you and your W, and I feel that it is a privilege to even have you listen to anything I say on here. However, I have to say that I partly agree with 'Help's' advice to you at this point. That is because, from what I know of your situation, you two are now approaching being separated and estranged for a year. The latter term would really scare me if I were in your situation.
Dr. Harley is a skilled M counselor, but he is not a legal advocate. So, you have to balance his advice against protecting yourself AND your kids legallly.
MJ, if I were in your shoes at this moment, I would formulate a two-prong defense. Arrange for another session with Harley, and try to get your W to participate. At the same time I would obtain the best legal counsel I could afford, thrash it out with him/her in terms of the estrangement and what it may mean to you in court, despite what your W promises. I know this may seem unrealistic in terms of funds at the present time, but if you have to eat hot dogs for the next ten weeks, or beg, borrow or steal, that is what I would do.
Other than that I don't know what to say except to extend my prayers and best wishes to you again, that you will succeed.
My advice centers on the damage you're doing to your own case. When I look at your situation, I think of what is likely happening:
She's setting you up. She has probably consulted a lawyer, who has advised you to play nice with you long enough to establish herself as the primary custodian of the kids. Then, when you least expect it, BAM! She will slam you with divorce papers and will claim that she has been the primary caretaker for the past x amount of time and requires support from you.
I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't know from experience how devious women can be when playing the legal game. They reallly do a fantastic job of playing nice and offering a carrot of hope to men while they set themselves up legally.
Again, I'm talking from experience.
SH is great at what he does, which is saving marriages. But, at the same time, he has to balance the legal stuff with the advice needed to save a marriage. They don't always go hand in hand.
You are in peril legally. You should, at a minimum, consult a lawyer. They can tell you if I'm wrong, since the laws in your state may be different.
But the hope you harbor is the #1 reason why men lose in custody battles. They don't play hardball. They are often duped into letting the woman keep everything.
I'm just trying to give you a heads up so you don't have it happen to you.
But don't be shocked if she goes from nice to nasty quickly.
@MJ - From my experience in California (NOT LEGAL ADVICE. CONSULT AN ATTORNEY), usually when custody issues arise during a divorce after a separation the courts will let stand any custody arrangements that were in place prior to filing for divorce. The reason for this is that any change in custody could mean a disruption to the kids. You would have to prove to the court that it would be in the children best interests to change any standing custody. Divorce is not necessarily grounds for changing custody.
Is there a legal separation in place? If not, then there is no legal custody arrangements that recognized by the courts. In other words it is up to you and your W to mediate these matters.
You really need to see an attorney about your rights when it comes to settling custody.
Seeing an attorney does not mean that you are contemplating a divorce. You are just trying to educate yourself on your rights. If there was a financial matter that might be going to court would you not consider meeting with an attorney to protect yourself?
From what I know of your situation, you two are now approaching being separated and estranged for a year. The latter term would really scare me if I were in your situation.
Thanks for writing. Your thoughts are with me. The Bible says to fear no man (or woman). But I do fear getting divorced. I fear the consequences of my kids growing up in single-parent homes or blended family homes. I fear for the soul of Honey, the sweetest person I ever met but whose choices now are diabolic. I fear the, what, $5k to $10k in legal bills I would pay, money that should be used for our wonderful daughters.
That said, I am taking a hard look at the effectiveness of my Plan A. Am I not doing the same thing I did last year with Honey except that now I commit few LB's, partly because we no longer live together and partly because I know better? Have I not given her lots of carrot but too little stick? ... I know what the answer of the vets on this board would be!
You also write,
Quote
MJ, if I were in your shoes at this moment, I would formulate a two-prong defense. Arrange for another session with Harley, and try to get your W to participate.
I talked with Dr. H on the phone over the air. I severely doubt that Honey, who doesn't like less than positive things aired among her FRIENDS, would want to go on a radio show. But I may well call Dr. H again on the radio. He'd probably give me the same advice -- wait for a break in her A -- but what the heck.
Help writes,
Quote
She's setting you up. She has probably consulted a lawyer, who has advised you to play nice with you long enough to establish herself as the primary custodian of the kids. Then, when you least expect it, BAM! She will slam you with divorce papers and will claim that she has been the primary caretaker for the past x amount of time and requires support from you.
I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't know from experience how devious women can be when playing the legal game. They reallly do a fantastic job of playing nice and offering a carrot of hope to men while they set themselves up legally.
She might be setting me up. She's done it in the past, such as when she moved out. She might be doing it now. But the six-month time limit ended in April. She is our kids' de facto primary guardian. That's the bad news. The good news is that her part of the state, in northern Virginia, is known as a 50/50 custody area.
Clark Kent writes,
Quote
You are just trying to educate yourself on your rights. If there was a financial matter that might be going to court would you not consider meeting with an attorney to protect yourself?
I would, definitely. I have talked with my attorney, in person, twice. I educated myself on my rights. I just concluded, last October and this March, that the MB approach had a good chance of success and that fighting for custody in the Spring, before the six months expired, would lead to D.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area Wife has NOT filed
"Do you believe in MIRACLES? YESSSSSSSSS!!!" -- Al Michaels
But I do fear getting divorced. I fear the consequences of my kids growing up in single-parent homes or blended family homes. I fear for the soul of Honey, the sweetest person I ever met but whose choices now are diabolic. I fear the, what, $5k to $10k in legal bills I would pay, money that should be used for our wonderful daughters.
This denial. Yes, we all fear D. None of us would have chosen this path for our children.
And yet it is. That's the reality.
Why do you say she's the de facto custodian?
Bud, you're on the Titanic arranging the furniture while she eats cake in a lifeboat.
What's the status of the OM?
Time to take action, which requires hardball. What would motivate her to come back when you've let her keep the kids and are being passive?
I'm not in denial about anything. I get it: She has moved on. You and I disagree about the tactics to win her back. You want me to file for custody and/or divorce. Unless she files, I'm not doing either. Period.
She's the de facto custodian because our daughters spend 4.5 days with her. But in our region and states, this arrangement is temporary.
The OM no longer works with her. He got a new job, about 15 miles from her in downtown D.C., in August. I suspect that they are continuing their A. However, I can't tell. When she picks the kids up, I don't have enough time to remove the GPS tracker, let alone charge it and put it back in the car.
What would motivate Honey to come back is that the OM moves on to another woman and ends their A. Listen, please, to my on-air phone call with Dr. H. Here is the link (I'm in parts A & B): http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/09-2010/09-14-10/ This scenario also played out in SAA, when Greg left Sue and she returned to John. (I can't believe I wrote that last part). Have you read SAA?
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
A belated update: Honey asked me to sign papers to re-title our car in Virginia, where she lives, and not in D.C., where I live and we used to live. I don't mind signing the paper. But I do mind not being able to visit her apartment where our daughters live 4.5 days of the week. Any advice on whether I should negotiate with her?
I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I don't care too much if the car is re-titled in another state. If we reconciled, we would likely live there, though NOT in her current apartment. The car remains in both of our names. And I don't want to push her to file for D, which she can do starting Monday the 18th, and jeopardize us going trick or treating with the kids. On the other hand, I wonder if negotiating with her about the car might be part of the stick for Plan A.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
I understand how you feel and your stance on filing for a divorce or separation and how it effects your children. I totally understand because I am there. i have not filed and at this time I have no plans to do so although I hold the option to do so later. ;0)
I am also trying to do a plan B which I think is HIGH time for you to do. Trying to bargin with her is not going to work showing her your best HAS not worked. SOmetimes you have to let sleeping dogs lie... Meaning heal you and let her run her course. I can tell you from experience your ideal of them begins to dim and get harsher as you continue to expose yourself to her ugly ways and actions. Recouping your marriage if that happens will be harder when you have those HARSH ugly thoughts in your mind later... Just a thought.
I can tell you from experience your ideal of them begins to dim and get harsher as you continue to expose yourself to her ugly ways and actions. Recouping your marriage if that happens will be harder when you have those HARSH ugly thoughts in your mind later.
I agree. Over the past month, I have caught myself recoiling in emotional pain from talking with or seeing her. My reactions are not helpful to anybody. Going to Plan B would prevent me from feeling that way.
That said, I hold out hope. Before anybody breaks out their 2x4's, let me explain myself. Honey invited me to go trick or treating with our girls in our old neighborhood; the OM no longer works with her; and I'm going to write a brief poem, give her a flower, and invite her out to dinner for our anniversary next week. Although I suspect she will reject my dinner offer, I will plant some seeds.
You also write,
Quote
I understand how you feel and your stance on filing for a divorce or separation and how it effects your children. I totally understand because I am there. i have not filed and at this time I have no plans to do so although I hold the option to do so later.
Actually I have no problem filing for separation. I would do that to separate our finances, which would protect me from her taking money from me. But filing for divorce or for custody -- she would have to flaunt her boyfriend in front of me or start smoking pot in front of our girls for either of those to happen.
Thanks for writing, by the way.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Check with your lawyer....you don't have to allow her to take the kids to another state. If you want to see your kids more often then put your foot down.
I will talk with Dr. Harley himself today on his radio show. The segment should appear in the next few days. When it does, I will let y'all know. In the meantime, my preamble and question are below:
Quote
I have spoken three times with Dr. Harley on your radio shows. Here is my latest question for Dr. Harley: How should I use Plan A effectively as a carrot and a stick? Since we spoke last month, my relationship with my wandering wife, who moved out of our house 12 months ago, has improved in some ways and stayed the same in others.
The good news is that the Other Man, with whom she is or was having an affair, got a new job twenty miles away and no longer works with her; I have kept my new job; and she invited me to go trick or treating with our young daughters in our old neighborhood.
The bad news is that she can file for divorce unilaterally next week; mentions divorce when she�s upset with me; won�t allow me in her apartment, where our girls live 4 days a week; likely still is seeing the Other Man; and wants to re-title our car in her new state. I have been in Plan A for five months. Now I'm getting nervous because I want to reconcile with my wife, with whom I have been together for a decade. Does Dr. Harley recommend I attempt to negotiate with her when I�m upset by her actions (the stick)? Does he suggest ways to woo her back to me (the carrot), such as inviting her to dinner to celebrate our anniversary?
By the way, I have NOT asked Honey out to dinner for anniversary. Nothing to celebrate, I figure; and asking her would make me look like a doormat. But perhaps Dr. H will convince me otherwise.
--------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
I talked with Dr. Harley on his show today. He is more open to me going to Plan B. Holding out much longer without committing LB's is increasingly difficult. "No matter what I do or say," he said, "you can't win." However, he says I should stay in Plan A if or until she files for D. The show was on today: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
Dr. H's advice is more in line with the advice of most of the vets on this thread. I'm on board with it. I'm frustrated with Honey and our sitch. Staying in Plan A is unrealistic.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Just let me say that there are quite a few people on here that I have learned to respect and admire, and who I have learned from just from interactive posts and reading. W/o naming alot of names, some of them are Bliss, Igrip, Melody, Mr. W., Constant, stillhere, help, definitely Writer, and not the least of them, is you. In my opinion, all of these people are pro-bowlers in terms of handling an affair, and much more, in terms of regaining an M. Simplistic yes, but in terms of human reaction no.
Your post is sort of confusing MJ, in that you are allowed to hover on that fence of a Plan A and B. At the expense of questiioning Harley, and yes people do question mentors, professors, and and advisors, and maybe a few people here, I have some concern. That concern is no mention from you about the impact of all this on you daughters. It is one thing for a counselor to give advice, it is another for a dad to protect his kids from an OM. Does Harley know truely about the situation of your daughters being exposed to this creature? MJ, this is just common sense.
If I were you, and again I am not, I would get active protecting my kids from this affair and their mother. I think you are doing okay in general, but MJ are you fighting for your chidlren. That is, I think, the biggest complaint that I or others may have on here. It is not to tow you down, but it is to rise as a dad and snatch those children from your W's waywardness, and to at least give them some semblance of a stable loving upbringing. In truth MJ, your lost W is not capable of this and she will severely damage them for life.
Do you have yourself set up and ready to go for your Plan B? - because you will need to be very dark, and frankly, I am not sure you will follow the rules. It will NOT WORK if you break no contact. P.E.R.I.O.D.
Agreed... I think you are failing your children by hiding behind Dr. H's recommendation, at the cost of taking action to show them they are loved and their dad is willing and able to fight for them..... remember you CALLED IN to Dr. H, as opposed to paid for counseling; he does not know the specifics of your entire situation. Yes, I listened to both your calls in their entirety.
Thank you for the kind words. I am proud to stand in the company of Igrip, Mr. W., and help in your eyes.
I admit that my plan is confusing. It's somewhere between Plan A and Plan B. But isn't Sick of Limbo doing the same plan? He's getting advice from Steve.
Dr. H knows that that OM was around my kids. I told him that the last time I was on his show. So his advice took that fact into account. As for the OM allegedly touching my kids, I'm stuck. DD3.5 did NOT volunteer this information to me; I asked her. That makes it less admissible in court. In fact, DD3.5 has not volunteering anything about the OM or "new man" since they went to the carousel park in August. I understand your concern, Tom, but I have no legal ground to stand on. It'd just be quick sand in fact.
I AM fighting for my kids. If they weren't born, I would divorced by now. Being abandoned for a year is just too hard without the idea that I'm sacrificing my present happiness for their future happiness and well being.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Do you have yourself set up and ready to go for your Plan B? - because you will need to be very dark, and frankly, I am not sure you will follow the rules. It will NOT WORK if you break no contact. P.E.R.I.O.D.
I do have an I.M. He and his family used to love next door to Honey and I. He knows my sitch and is happy to help. However, I may need to ask him to handle emails as well.
No, I don't have my Plan B letter written. I'll compose it over the weekend and post a draft here.
As for being set up and ready to go, I would need to cancel our joint bank account. I would also have to do something, I'm guessing, about our credit cards.
I understand your concern about me not following Plan B. But I would go dark, dark, dark. Taking this has been tough the past few days. I'm not sure why. I still have hope about the trick or treating, but not being in regular and meaningful contact with Honey is rough.
Thanks for writing. I read your posts with interest.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
No trick or treating, because you are still meeting HER needs, and letting her cake-eat. STOP IT.
In Plan B, you do NOT read her emails. That would be for the IM. You get only messaged from the IM, never ever never ever from Honey herself.
never ever never ever never ever
nothing from Honey
YOU are dark. You do not get a fix, and Honey gets no fix.
This is what I mean about you not going dark. You absolutely cannot do anything that would even allow her to SEE you, not even for one tiny millisecond.
That means you cannot sneak a peak of HER, either.
You will need to arrange for somebody else to be the person who exchanges the kids over to Honey and back again. YOU cannot do this, because the risk for you?????
You will break Plan B.
Because you have the WRONG idea - that your case is unique, that Honey is unique, that her affair is "special".....
NONE OF THAT IS TRUE, MJ. Your situation is a mess because you have dragged it out. You have shuffled your feet to find yourself on the path where you are.
Go firmly now to Plan B. For once, do not hesitate. For once, follow MB to the LETTER. If you have a snowball's chance in he//, you absolutely must be a MB pro, and right now.
As far as whether or not you have "enough to go to court" on OM, IMHO I wouldn't give a good krappola either way. I would act on that ASAP and make da*& sure he was NEVER alone with those girls - by putting legal action in place YESTERDAY. I wouldn't care if the judge didn't believe me. Because down the road, sooner or later, MY DAUGHTERS WOULD KNOW I STOOD UP FOR THEM, NO MATTER WHO BELIEVED ME OR NOT.
That is what matters. Not the judge, not the police, not the court.
Having been there PERSONALLY, I wish just ONE SINGLE SOLITARY ADULT would have done something. Anything. Just one f&**ing time to stand up for me. It would have made a difference in MY LIFE, and who cares if the police would have believed it? I wouldn't have! I would have felt SAVED SAVED SAVED.
That's all for now, because I have found my anger pot.
Hey, MJ, I just re-read your thread to get caught up. I'm disappointed that the news isn't better for you, but I cut out back when I realized that you were leaning toward Plan Hope as opposed to aggressively going after your M.
I don't want to you, MJ, but I can't for the life of me understand why you have spent a year fiddling while Rome burns. You have wandered in the desert of Plan Hope while your WW builds a new life for herself and your DDs.
You exposed in the most ineffective way - you 'implied' to your WW's and OM's employers??? Your mentioned it to an "EX" colleague? What good was this supposed to do? Why would you have to expose numerous times to her relatives? One effective exposure should have been all that was necessary.
You've had posters falling out of their chairs, begging you to protect your DDs from OM and you have demurred.
You have had posters advise you to get legal help and you've tossed out a dollar amount you can't afford. Tell me, MJ, do you know how much it's going to cost you to just live for the rest of your life? But you're going to continue living, right? Do you have any idea what it's going to cost to get your DDs through college? But you're going to do it, right? Why should protecting yourself and your DDs be any different??
Now here you are. Your WW is gone. I don't think she'll be back. Please don't send her flowers and candy. Please don't accept the scraps she throws your way when she wants to get her way. No, no trick or treating with her and the kids. Find out when trick or treat will be held in your neighborhood and you can take them there - just you, not WW.
Please don't twist in the wind, growing older and waiting for your WW to come out of the fog. It sounds like she has gone through the fog and come out on the other side, without you. Will she stay with OM? Who knows? But don't you think you deserve to finally take a stand for yourself and your DDs?
Dr. H says Plan A? I think you've done all the Plan A you can do.
Sorry, MJ, but I feel very discouraged and saddened and frustrated for you right now. I'm with HTLD, schoolbus and the rest who are advocating for Plan B. Heck, Plan D is looking pretty good for you right now.
Something you may not have thought of, MJ: You are sending a terrible message to your girls by participating in things like family activities when it is perfectly clear to them that you are no longer a family.
You are teaching your daughters that a family is not a full-time committment, and it's okay to just drop in for fun things like dinner or trick-or-treat and then go away again after the fun is over - go away again when you feel like it.
Your WW is fine with this. It's what she wants - a happy family divorce that she can feel good about and that provides her with a built-in babysitter (you) when she feels like having one.
Are you fine with this?
An MB thread on this topic, in case you have not seen it yet:
Please consider what you are teaching your daughters with this - and what you are teaching them by simply standing by with your hands in your pockets and doing nothing while the OM takes over their lives.
No more excuses, MichaelJan. The time to be a man of action is YESTERDAY. Don't go trick-or-treating. Take your daughters with you BY YOURSELF.
The sooner she's out of your life, the better. You deserve a life free of her poisonous influence. And stop calling her Honey. She's gone - she's moved on, and probably laughs at you with OM for how you take whatever scraps she throws you.
I have been slammed at work, at home with the kids, and going to a support group for separated and divorced Catholics, so I have not had time to respond to your posts. Oh boy.
schoolbus,
You and I disagree on the timing of the tactics, not the tactics themselves. I agree that going to Plan B means going as dark as Pluto. No reading of her emails, no looking at her pictures, no chance encounters -- nothing. And I agree that Honey's waywardness is not unique. In fact, the similarity of her behavior with that of other WS's convinced me that I could benefit from posting on this forum.
You write,
Quote
Go firmly now to Plan B. For once, do not hesitate. For once, follow MB to the LETTER. If you have a snowball's chance in he//, you absolutely must be a MB pro, and right now.
Following MB to the letter isn't possible because there isn't a letter (or book or bible or set of authoritative posts). Doesn't the difference between Dr. H's advice to me and the 2 x 4's directed at me on this forum prove this point? Dr. H says to go to Plan B if she files for D. Most commenters on this site go to Plan B now. Dr. H says to go trick or treating with WW and our girls; the commenters advise me not to go. Also, most commenters on SickofLimbo's site in August or September advised him to go to Plan B and sell his house. Yet Steve and Dr. H advised him to stay in Plan A and NOT sell his house.
As I understand it, Plan B has a couple of components. It's to help the BS not deal with the chaos and confusion of the WS' behavior. And it's to force the WS to rely on the AP to have all of his and her needs met. Right now, I can deal with the pain and confusion of Honey's A, though I admit that it is wearing on me. I look forward to us being a family again on Halloween; I hope to deposit serious units in my WW's love bank. So I will go trick or treating with them.
However, I will go to Plan B if she files. That would be the last straw. I know, her being with the OM should be the last straw, but for now I can handle it.
maritalbliss writes,
Quote
You exposed in the most ineffective way - you 'implied' to your WW's and OM's employers??? Your mentioned it to an "EX" colleague? What good was this supposed to do? Why would you have to expose numerous times to her relatives? One effective exposure should have been all that was necessary.
Your point requires explanation. After I implied to the boss of my WW and the OM in October '09, my IL called my mom. She thought I was endangering Honey's job and called to complain. (My IL likely did NOT know that Honey was having an A). They got into an argument and my mom hung up on her. Exposing at work, if you can call it that, had backfired on me. My goal with exposing to my IL's directly was to get their support. Exposing Honey at work again would have killed any chance of winning their favor.
By the way, Dr. H. did not endorse exposing my WW's A when I called his radio show in June; he said exposing would not be a bad idea, but couldn't bless it. This is another area in which MB'ers disagree.
FWW, I told an ex-colleague in a FB post that my WW and his buddy were having an A.
Mulan,
Don't worry; Honey knows I'm not going for a fantasy divorce. In August, I told her that if she files, I will counter-file, asking for full custody and putting the OM on trial. I also said I would not speak with her again.
Arpeggi,
Honey may sound like poison to you. But to me she's the mother of the two most beautiful girls in the world, was my best friends for eight years, and deserves every last shot of redemption.
With all of this said, I am on my last legs in Plan A. On Friday, I had an hour-long training session as part of my job. The consultant's job was to ask me about my personality at work. I loved talking with her; she made me feel special and that she understood me. She happened to be an attractive, smart woman my age. Over the past three days, I have thought about what dating her would be like. I have tried to be realistic, but have also indulged in fantasy thoughts about what a great life we could have. The bottom line is that I did not ask her out; did not send her a follow up email; but my love for Honey is waning.
Please pray for me and my family. And keep up your advice and comments.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Dr. H doesn�t quite have the 9 pages of posts we have regarding your history.
I appreciate where you are and understand your feelings regarding dating.
My advice? You�re nowhere near being able to date and you would ruin anything that has good promise if you enter into dating before you�re divorced and shortly afterwards.
A custody battle is a really stressful thing to introduce into a relationship. It really turns away good women. In hindsight, it makes the ones that stick around through such a battle questionable. Why? Well, it is one of the most stressful things a person can go through and I question why anyone would willingly date anybody going through it. I really respect the women that ran away from me during that time. It tells me they are mentally healthy women who don�t need unnecessary drama in their lives. THOSE are the kind of women you want to date, once things settle down.
Things would be different if you had no kids. I�ve seen the difference. Divorces with no kids have a lot less drama.
My point is that you need to shelve the idea of dating for a loooooong time. Seriously, give it about a year or two AFTER you�ve split before you even think about it. It really takes about that long to feel normal again after what you�re going to go through.
As far as saving your marriage: Follow MB. You�ve done Plan A. Time for Plan B within the confines of having kids. I understand how hard it is to follow a Plan B when you have kids. It is very hard and you have to have a very understanding and willing intermediary that is willing to put up with the drama and be a neutral party to represent you.
Honey flipped me the Bird this afternoon. Driving away in our car after she picked up our kids, she extended her middle digit my way. A classy move, and typical of Ms. Entitled the past twelve months.
I don't blame myself for her response. I stood my ground when she refused to sign on to a joint car insurance, which would save me $10 a month; if you can't sign on, I said, I can't pay you our regular monthly amount for our expenses. She blew her stack at that comment. "You're going to deduct $10 a month because I won't sign on to a new car insurance!" she yelled with our girls in the back seat. Yeah, I said calmly and confidently; I can't pay you the full amount. To which she made her usual threats about us getting a divorce and our marriage being over and us using a calculator to figure out how much I owe her in child support. Blah, blah, blah.
I've had enough of Honey. Her act is old, old, old. I've been a good husband to her, being faithful to her when she continues to sleep with POSOM and by her own admission a terrific father to our girls. Also, I have not committed LB's, other than failing to pay one of our joint bills (for $225). Yet she continues to act like a 14-year-old spoiled brat.
As you can tell, my Taker is in full force. And maybe my dignity and respect too. I still act like a Giver when I call her and she comes over and we chit chat nicely. But the past two days have moved me closer than ever to -- da, dah -- going to Plan B.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
I think you are afraid to do what is necessary to kill this affair.
Have you had your attorney send a certified letter of intent to supeona the OM for his actions with your WW if it goes to divorce trial??? Even in no fault states that do not have adultery clauses it still figures into child custody and what enviornment is best for the kids.
Let your WW know that your attorney will be scheduling mental health testing for you, her and your kids to determine WHO will be in charge of primary residency for custody based on the mental health findings. If OM will also be part of their life HE may be also subject to being tested according to your state's laws.
Did you copy your WW and OM's list of facebook friends and send a private message to each and every one of them to expose???
Have you hired a PI for a background check on the OM who is spending time with your kids???
Sir, if you are going to win this you have got to get MAD about this OM taking YOUR life and kids and start fighting back, not just waiting to see what THEY are going to next to you.
Your WW is losing any respect she may ever have had for you. Flipping you off in front of your children? How disrespectful is that? You appear to be in Plan Doormat.
You are past the point of any positive return on being in Plan A. But your post about being ready to go to Plan B shows no action in that direction whatsoever.
I recommend video taping the exchanges to capture this behavior. Check your state's laws on it first, though. You can usually record video but you can't record audio. So shut off the audio on your camera and get the video only, IF you live in a two party state. A one party state lets you record as long as one party in the conversation knows they're being recorded.
Such behavior on video and done in front of the kids matters a lot in custody disputes.
I understand why people don't believe I'm ready to go to Plan B. I promised I would write a draft of my letter to Honey and have not done so. But I'm ready.
Here's why: On Friday morning, while dropping my kids off to daycare, which is near Honey's apartment, I caught myself saying, "The OM isn't going to marry Honey. He's using her (and she's using him). But I'm being the good husband. To hell with this." Then on Saturday night, while coming home from a friend's house, a street walker appeared about 25 yards away. I lowered my window shield. At that point, I thought, "What the hell am I doing? I want to have sex with a prostitute?" I never had this temptation when I was dating and living with Honey. Something is wrong.
I can't keep up being disrespected by Honey. It's too emotionally exhausting and will only wind up hurting my family.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Neither. He will just row the boat in place, and wait until somebody else does something to make the decision for him. Then, he will not be happy with the outcome, and blame the other person.
Honey knows I'm not going for a fantasy divorce. In August, I told her that if she files, I will counter-file, asking for full custody and putting the OM on trial. I also said I would not speak with her again.
MJ, I have absolutely no advice on your marriage but this really stuck out to me. I understand you have met with an atty and say that her juristiction is a 50/50 area, whatever that means. To me there is a delicate line to toe when dealing with the kids. Where I'm from, Kansas, while it touts fathers rights the judge in our case made it clear that he has and never will order 50/50 custody. Why? Because if the parents can't AGREE to 50/50 then how will they ever be able to do the extra co-parenting that goes along with 50/50. My X and I were able to settle on pretty much 50/50. We then had a disagreement, took it to court, and the judge said if any other matters come before his court the 50/50 thing was gone. 2 years later he made true on his promise and as I had been informed he was an old-school "kids go with momma" judge.
The only reason I share this is to warn you to be extremely educated in the judge's temperment before taking a drastic step, such as plan B. While I have tons of respect for Dr. H, he is not a Divorce Lawyer and if your marriage isn't saved you need to be in the best possible position for your kids.
Below is a draft of my Plan B letter to Honey. Most of the text is taken from Dr. H's SAA, but I added a few sentences to make it personal.
Quote
My Dear Honey,
I apologize again to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with the OM possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you felt alone and scared, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I�ve made and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do any of this until you end your relationship with the OM once and for all.
Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends Tk, Tk and Tk have agreed to help make arrangements for Tk. But I will not be here when you visit or we exchange the kids. If you want to communicate about our girls or any other matter, it will have to be through Tk and Tk.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with the OM, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are with him. I still love you and I �m not going to divorce you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
As soon as you are willing to separate permanently from Tk and are willing to follow the measures to ensure total separation. I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to have not only a good marriage, but a great marriage. I want us to be able to meet each other�s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. More important, I know what it takes for us to build a great marriage: giving each other at least 15 hours a week of undivided attention and never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of both of us.
We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend again, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you. You are the sweetest, most playful, and most beautiful woman I know. I just cannot be with you as long as you are seeing the OM.
Too wordy. Too needy. She won't respect that, MJ. Try this:
Originally Posted by MichaelJan
Below is a draft of my Plan B letter to Honey. Most of the text is taken from Dr. H's SAA, but I added a few sentences to make it personal.
Quote
My Dear Honey,
I apologize again to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with the OM possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you felt alone and scared, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I�ve made and create a new life for both of us that will meet yourour needs. But I cannot do any of this until you end your relationship with the OM once and for all.
Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to youwill no longer see you or talk to you. Our friends Tk, Tk and Tk have agreed to help make arrangements for Tk. But I will not be here when you visit or we exchange the kids. If you want to communicate about our girls or any other matter, it will have to be through Tk and Tk.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with the OM, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are with him. I still love you and I �m not going to divorce you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
As soon as you are willing to separate permanently from Tk and are willing to follow the measures to ensure total separation. I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to have not only a good marriage, but a great marriage. I want us to be able to meet each other�s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. More important, I know what it takes for us to build a great marriage: giving each other at least 15 hours a week of undivided attention and never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of both of us.
We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend again, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you. You are the sweetest, most playful, and most beautiful woman I know. I just cannot be with you as long as you are seeing the OM.
Too wordy. Too needy. She won't respect that, MJ. Try this:
Originally Posted by MichaelJan
Below is a draft of my Plan B letter to Honey. Most of the text is taken from Dr. H's SAA, but I added a few sentences to make it personal.
Quote
My Dear Honey,
I apologize again to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with the OM possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you felt alone and scared, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I�ve made and create a new life for both of us that will meet yourour needs. But I cannot do any of this until you end your relationship with the OM once and for all.
Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to youwill no longer see you or talk to you. Our friends Tk, Tk and Tk have agreed to help make arrangements for Tk. But I will not be here when you visit or we exchange the kids. If you want to communicate about our girls or any other matter, it will have to be through Tk and Tk.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with the OM, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are with him. I still love you and I �m not going to divorce you, but I cannot see you under these conditions.
As soon as you are willing to separate permanently from Tk and are willing to follow the measures to ensure total separation. I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to have not only a good marriage, but a great marriage. I want us to be able to meet each other�s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. More important, I know what it takes for us to build a great marriage: giving each other at least 15 hours a week of undivided attention and never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of both of us.
We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend again, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you. You are the sweetest, most playful, and most beautiful woman I know. I just cannot be with you as long as you are seeing the OM.
Here you go, MJ. Easier to read ---------------------------------
Honey, I apologize again to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with the OM possible.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I�ve made and create a new life for both of us that will meet our needs. But I cannot do any of this until you end your relationship with the OM once and for all.
Until then, I will no longer see you or talk to you. Our friends Tk, Tk and Tk have agreed to help make arrangements for Tk. If you want to communicate about our girls or any other matter, it will have to be through Tk and Tk.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with the OM, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are with him.
As soon as you are willing to separate permanently from Tk I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want us to be able to have not only a good marriage, but a great marriage. I want us to be able to meet each other�s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. I want to be your best friend again, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I loved you when we married and I continue to love you. You are the sweetest, most playful, and most beautiful woman I know. I just cannot be with you as long as you are seeing the OM.
With my love, ------------------------------------
Thanks for your edits. I like them. You omitted the part about me pursuing my career because I already told her that, in August?
schoolbus,
Actually, I don't think I need will, strength, and courage to give the letter to her. I just need or needed a realistic picture of my situation: a betrayed husband who's doing the right thing but whose wife flipped him off and as a way to regain his masculinity, was tempted to pay for sex with a prostitute.
Well, that and the recollection that a cousin of mine attempted suicide after caring for her alcoholic husband, who wandered the streets for weeks and didn't tell her his whereabouts. I'm not going down that road. This weekend crystallized for me that at this point, I can only hurt the marriage, not help it.
... Of course, I would prefer that a couple of my physically imposing friends get some tire irons in their hands and meet the OM after work in the parking lot.
As a practical matter, what about documenting Honey's adultery with the OM? Should I do this BEFORE I give her the Plan B letter?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Thanks for your edits. I like them. You omitted the part about me pursuing my career because I already told her that, in August?
No, I omitted them because you don't need to point out things you've done wrong in a Plan B letter. Both of you contributed to the issues in your M. There's time to address them during recovery.
Go back and read that letter. You'll notice that the only reference to someone doing something wrong as an individual is WW. The thing she is during wrong is committing adultery. She has to end that in order to recover the M. That's what your Plan B letter is about - not anything you've done 'wrong.'
Oh, I have confirmation of the A. I just don't have confirmation of the A for a judge or jury. Should I get this?
Also, do you recommend filing for legal separation?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
If you have confirmation of the A you don't need to do any more leg work to write a Plan B letter. That would be like proving to her that she's having an A. She already knows that.
As far as filing, I would wait. But not too long. I'd say see what she does after she gets the Plan B letter.
I'm going to amend this, MJ. I think you may want to get some legal advice and start moving on filing. I think she's played you long enough. That might give her a dose of reality, and you'll be protecting yourself. Nothing wrong with that.
I have been reading Sick of Limbos' thread with interest and have a thought. What if I messed with the OM some more? I'm talking exposing him at his new work place and calling him out personally on FB.
The con to doing both is that exposing and sparring would be emotionally draining; and Honey might file. The pro is that he might let go of my WW. He's not committed to any woman. He's said so. His wife has said so. And why would a newly divorced man in his mid-30s want to marry a woman with two young kids? Plus, as schoolbus pointed out, he cares only about money, which is why exposing him at his new work place would hit him where he's most vulnerable.
I'm just thinking out loud. I still plan to give Honey the Plan B letter in a few days. I just wonder if I could do more damage to their adulterous relationship before I go dark.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
I�d say you�re letting him live rent free in your brain.
If you haven�t exposed at work, then do so, but not because you wish to mess with him. Do it because you want to put pressure on the affair.
And don�t question why a man in his early thirties would want to be with a woman with kids. They are out there and they do. So stop worrying about things that you can�t control and focus on the things you can.
Do NOT expose him at work unless he is employed by a company that promotes or advertises itself as being family-friendly/integrity-oriented/values driven.
Do it today, not "in a few days". Get your act together and quit your hesitating, because you are NOT WINNING.
The more you hesitate, the more she KNOWS you are a doormat, and the more you PROVE IT.
Exposing the OM at his work? MJ, please. The time has come and gone for exposing. You have wasted enough time........
The affair is NOT about the OM. At this point:
The affair is about your WW, who sees you NOT FIGHTING. You are passively accepting what she is doing, even though it hurts, because she does not suffer any consequences. You continue to show her that you will accept her in any situation, under any circumstances, whatever SHE WANTS.
she can even flip you off
walk all over you
and yet you HESITATE to hurt her "feelings"
she has no feelings
You are losing. Go tonight, do the Plan B letter delivery.
Stop and look down. You used to have a pair down there somewhere, only "Honey" has removed them and is waving them in your face, just challenging you to do something.....
Here's the thing that just kills me, MJ: you hold the position of power as the BH, yet you've done NOTHING to kill this A. WHY? WHY ARE YOU TWIDDLING YOUR THUMBS???????
I'm giving her the Plan B letter tonight. She will pick the kids from my place and receive my missive.
In the meantime, I received a notice from the United States Postal Service that a certified letter for me. My guess is that this is a notice for divorce papers. However, why would Honey send me an email yesterday asking if I'd like another day with our girls if she were going to serve me. And I don't recognize the sender's initials, which don't correspond with those of the divorce attorney Honey said she consulted last year.
Any thoughts?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Go get the letter. How will anything you do be changed by being served D papers? You know, I received 3 letters registered since my WH left. Every single time, I thought that they were D papers, even though he can't actually file until Dec 18th this year. I got the letters, and it was nothing important. The last time, I actually had thought, "Well, if it is, how is my life gonna change?" THAT my friend, is the beauty of Plan B. YOU are seeing life without your WS as well as showing them the reality of life without you.
Doesn't mean a year later she has gone with a new lawyer.
Being nice before a bomb is dropped is a standard WW tatic. They are master's at stringing along the BH.
You know when people can't tell what's going to happen they tend to look at the signs. Some are seen some are miss read and other's are just missed.
So you want to recover and looking for signs that indicate things are going to go your way makes you miss the bad news coming.
Last year I had a temp job that I wanted to become permanent. Wanted it bad because it was fun and rewarding how ever the money and benefits were not that good. Being on the down side half of 50's and with the economy being bad it seemed that this job could get me through till SS age and then some.
I didn't get to keep the job. So I do what every one else is just keep on going.
A lot of hot air to say that not until after working there for 5 months and then waiting 2 months before operations were to restart again I never saw that they weren't going to bring me back.
How was I not smart enough to see the signs? Hard to be impartial when you are pulling for things to go the way you want.
Honey received my Plan B letter. As she was picking up our girls and in no mood to start a fight, she agreed to my suggestion to read the letter later. When she calls me, I will not answer; when she sends me an email, I will forward it to my intermediary. It's time for a new strategy with Honey.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family Plan B begins 11/20/10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Honey took the kids to her parents for Thanksgiving. I want to talk with our daughters, but don't want to deal with her, even through an IM. Is talking with my kids a good idea? Dr. Harley mentioned that going to Plan B without filing for legal separation can lead to custody problems.
The certified letter wasn't from Honey, by the way. It was from the feds.
------------------------------------------------ Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family Plan B begins 11/20/10 Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Through the IM, negotiate a time every day when you can call, and have the KIDS answer the phone.
This gives the kids a responsibility (to answer the call, to note the time, to stay on schedule for the call, and to keep in touch with Daddy). It also forces not-so-sweet-Honey to let you talk with the kids without breaking Plan B.
Don't stop contacting the kids. They will always be your children. Your WW may have other plans for your parenting, but you stay on track. SB
I've been in your shoes. Your kids are too young to have a phone or take care of one.
This is one of those things where you're simply going to have to live with the new reality. I would love to talk to my kids every night and I'm confident that I will do so as they get older. But for now they're too young.
Unfortunately, one of the sad adjustments to all of this is the reality that you simply won't talk to your kids as often as you'd like. I recommend you simply wait and talk to them when you can until there is a court order that sets a specific time for the phone.
Man, I don't know where you're at on the racetrack but if things are heading to court, you need to have your ducks lined up. IMVHO, lining things up for court is more like plan A than plan B. I know this is a marriage building site, but if your marriage is gone then you need to do what's best for the kids. If you make it difficult to co-parent, the court will take that into account when ordering visitation. If you start a pattern of communicating with them via telephone, the court will take that into consideration. Honestly, Plan B will screw you in court pretty much most of the time.
My youngest was 6 when I divorced and I never missed a day of communicating with her and we have an awesome relationship today. Anywho, I think you really need to evaluate where you're at and where you're realistically going and make a battle plan to get there.....
You can request that there be set times for phone calls in any order the court issues. Get 50/50 in custody. If that happens, then it isn�t so bad to wait till you see the kids to hear from them.
I know my kids love me. I don�t hear from them when they�re with their mom. I try to call, but my calls are often ignored. I could make a massive deal out of it, but I also know that it�s often out of their control. Once they get older, however, they�ll be free to call anytime. Also, they�ll know how to take care of a phone, and will be able to use it.
Honey left me a voicemail at work; I saw her work number pop up on my phone. I will notify my IM and have him ask her the nature of her request, though I can guess what it's about (money). Leaving a message on the work phone is an old WS trick, right?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Honey left me a voicemail at work; I saw her work number pop up on my phone. I will notify my IM and have him ask her the nature of her request, though I can guess what it's about (money). Leaving a message on the work phone is an old WS trick, right?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
I would not ask IM to respond. WW knows she has to go through IM. Do not let WW chip away at NC.
Thanks for the encouragement. FWIW, I like Plan B. It's easier on me than Plan A was in the last month or two months. I concentrate on my improvements without worrying about my Honey's craziness.
By the way, Honey called me at 9:30 last night. I picked up, as my land line doesn't have caller ID. She said hello and my name. I hung up. She didn't call back. I don't like hanging up on her; it's probably a LB. But I felt confident afterward. Going forward, I need to get caller ID.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
By the way, Honey called me at 9:30 last night. I picked up, as my land line doesn't have caller ID. She said hello and my name. I hung up. She didn't call back. I don't like hanging up on her; it's probably a LB. But I felt confident afterward. Going forward, I need to get caller ID.
WW, welcome to Reality. This isn't an LB, it's an enforcement of your boundaries. And I have to believe it made an impression on your WW. People with self-respect would behave like you did. They don't talk to people who are dangerous to them. She's got to have some respect for you after that.
I like Plan B. It's easier on me than Plan A was in the last month or two months. I concentrate on my improvements without worrying about my Honey's craziness.
Hi Michael, yes I love Plan B too, I felt quite high initially too taking control and having such peace around me. Enjoy. Although I found I hit a wall about 6 weeks in when it got tough. Make the most of this time to concentrate on you.
Bad news: My WW picked our daughters up early from work tonight and won't give them up until I agree to abandon Plan B. She says that she needs to talk with me about our kids and that if I want an intermediary, I should hire a court-appointed mediator. She says she doesn't feel comfortable talking with a third-person about our kids. Riiigghht. It couldn't be that she's lost control of the situation could it?
This is craziness. Tonight is my night to pick up the kids from day care; I have them, this weekend, till 7 on Saturday. I was really looking forward to seeing them, as I haven't seen them since the weekend before Thanksgiving. Instead, she's decided to take the kids. What a woman.
Not seeing the kids is painful; I feel like I got punched in the gut. But I'm not backing down from Plan B. My plan is to pick them up early from daycare tomorrow and tell Honey that she can pick them up on Sunday from one of my IM's.
Your thoughts about my sitch are appreciated. My sense now is that I should have filed for legal separation, though I don't think that legal separation determines custody in her state or mine. However, I could also let things blow over after this weekend. Honey doesn't have many vacation days left at work.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
This is a normal response to Plan B, for the WS to try to do things to antagonize and rile the BS. Don't fall for it. She hates losing her power over you.
You are operating from a position of strength.
Call an attorney, and get some sort of custody thing in place. You need to beat her to the judge.
Call tomorrow. Get it done, fast. And too bad if she doesn't like the intermediary. Fact is, there are not that many true EMERGENCIES that require the two of you to talk directly.
Block her from your email, and make them bounce to the IM. Let the IM handle her. She will get used to it. After all, she got used to walking all over you, right?
She says that she needs to talk with me about our kids and that if I want an intermediary, I should hire a court-appointed mediator. She says she doesn't feel comfortable talking with a third-person about our kids.
She doesn't want to talk through an IM? What the heck does she think a court-appointed mediator is?
Plan B is working. Very good.
So, hire a court-appointed mediator. Off to an attorney with ye, sir.
Forget the reasons why a WS hates plan B. You're pondering the formation of icebergs when you just hit one and are taking on water.
Forget why icebergs form. Get an attorney. File for a "pendente lite" hearing, which simply means "pending litigation". Then, get a temporary order putting the custody situation in writing.
I would recommend filing for abandonment and spousal support while you're at it.
Why the hell does a WS hate Plan B? Wouldn't he or she WANT to turn to her AP?
They want both worlds. Simple as that. They feel entitled to have it all. Plan B cuts out a lot of one of those worlds. Their AP isn't meeting all their needs.
A well-crafted Plan B is one of the best things you can do, MJ.
Picture this: remember the Wicked Witch of the West, in the Wizard of Oz? Remember the part where Dorothy throws water on the Witch, and she starts screaming and melts? Your addicted WW is the Witch. A proper Plan B is the water.
Hie thee to an attorney, got it? (Can anyone guess what literary period I've been helping DS with? )
I understand your point: forget the reason for the problem; attempt to solve the problem. How many hours would a good attorney spend filing a legal separation?
Maritalbliss,
The AP isn't meeting her needs: I knew it, I knew it. And he won't meet all of her needs.
To everyone else,
For tomorrow, I plan to pick up the kids before Honey does. I got one car seat and will ask around for another. I suspect she'll leave work early tomorrow. Of course, she may take the kids tomorrow too, but that would be another two days of vacation time for her. She couldn't do this next Thursday and Friday.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
I forgot to ask, why do I need to file first? Why is doing so critical? And by filing, I presume you mean filing for legal separation.
He who files first gets temporay custody whether full or most. Then the nice judge will award CS.
So if you have no problem with WW getting a shot at full custody where you don't get to see your kids and have to pay CS, or one better WW moves to another state and files there.
For tomorrow, I plan to pick up the kids before Honey does. I got one car seat and will ask around for another. I suspect she'll leave work early tomorrow. Of course, she may take the kids tomorrow too, but that would be another two days of vacation time for her. She couldn't do this next Thursday and Friday.
I am concerned that your children will become pawns in an emotional tug-of-war. Please see an attorney so that you don't get to a place where you're speeding to day care to beat your WW, and vice-versa. This is not good for your kids.
The odds are much higher for you if you file. You would advocate that the kids stay in the marital home.
How long does it take an attorney? Months.
The family court system is slow unless you file an emergency motion, and it better be a real emergency.
What�s going to happen is that you will go to the attorney and will request a formal custody arrangement.
This is where you ask for it all. Request sole physical and legal custody, file for abandonment, request child support, and that the kids be kept in the marital home. Will you get all of that? No. But you ask for it. It will be shocking to your WW.
Request a Guardian Ad Litem. This attorney will represent the children, not you. Present yourself as an involved parent who only cares for the children and their wellbeing. Do not attack your ex, focus on your own strengths and what you bring to the table for them. Attacking your ex will give the impression that you do the same in front of the children, which is a turnoff to the family court system.
What�s going to happen is that you�ll get a scheduling conference, where they bring you in and look at the calendar and try to set future dates for litigation. They�ll encourage you to come to a settlement in the hallways of the courthouse at that time.
You�ll be given a date for mediation, will likely get a parenting coordinator assigned, and will then have a future date set for a pendente lite hearing, which will establish the temporary custody arrangement. It�s not really temporary. What�s established on that date will likely be what you end up with. So ask for the most. If you get 50/50 offered from her, settle. Don�t litigate more. You risk too much. Unless she�s abusive, you�re not likely to be given primary.
Once a schedule is set, then you don�t have much to argue with her. If she takes the kids when she�s not supposed to, then you can go to the cops with your court order and get them back.
The parenting coordinator will be the IM regarding kid issues.
Thanks for your wise counsel. I will surely need to go down the legal road. In the interim, I would like to pursue Plan B somewhat amended.
Instead of having Honey pick up the kids at a friend's house, she would pick them up from my place, with a friend talking with her while I am in another room or outside the apartment. She expressed openness to this idea last night on the phone. I would still communicate with her via an IM.
This plan would have all the benefits of my original Plan B: I don't see or talk with her. And it would prevent me from spending thousands of dollars at a time when I have $80 in the bank and owe friends and family members $2,000. What do you think?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Waywards give empty promises. She agrees to this now, but will change things later.
Your plan is a recipe for disaster. All exchanges with my ex, early on in the process, were stressful affairs for everyone, including the kids.
There is no avoiding the legal road. I was unemployed and started the process. Put it on a credit card if necessary or get another job that pays more or get another job to build up a reserve.
Not having legal papers means you will be susceptible to her next tantrum.
The best place to exchange the kids is a neutral place. You drop the kids off at daycare. She picks them up there, or a school.
Instead of having Honey pick up the kids at a friend's house, she would pick them up from my place, with a friend talking with her while I am in another room or outside the apartment. She expressed openness to this idea last night on the phone. I would still communicate with her via an IM.
I don't understand. What's the difference between WW picking the kids up at your house as opposed to a friend's house?
Hmmm....what's she thinking....I don't know, MJ. It sounds to me like she is trying to play King of the Mountain, or something. Like she's trying to manipulate your Plan B as a way of getting in there and eventually dismantling it entirely. It just sounds like a power struggle.
My first thought is to tell her that she doesn't get to dictate these terms. No, I take that back: my FIRST thought remains the same. See an attorney. Can you see if there is legal help available at low/no cost in your area? Have you looked into that?
She is attempting to change your terms. I don't like it. Let's see what everyone else says.
I have not been able to get on here for awhile, but did spend some time catching up on your story. To be honest I felt your sitch was headed to a Plan B.
You are getting good advice from alot of people, and as I see it you now have two objectives. The first is to continue faithfully in your Plan B. Please do not ever forget that this is for YOU - for you to decide on what you want to do regarding your marriage, and to protect yourself and strengthen yourself in however many ways - eating well, learning your new job and excelling, exercise and workouts, and just enjoying life on your terms. Please stop fretting over what her most recent or next move is! She moved out of your life a year ago as I recall, so you two are really estranged now, period. I do not feel she is still your 'Honey' MJ. The second objective, and in my view this is mutually exclusive to a Plan B, is to assure you have equal parenting with your daughters, and that you protect them from this or any AP ASAP, period. This is your oblication as their dad. I am still very concerned about who your WW may be exposing them to, and I think you are assuming a great risk of potential harm.
So, I totally agree with SBus and Help you need to get to an experienced attourney ASAP to establish your parental rights, the fact that you have a stable home, and that your WW may in fact be guilty of child endangerment! Yes, in my opinion after such a long time that you two have been estranged this is necessary. Otherwise you will be viewed by any court as approving of your WW's allegations. Back in the 80's and early 90's MJ I was a crisis intervention phone counselor and I recall a number of cases of disputes like this resulting in the inactive parent, even tho not guilty of anything except inattenton and inaction, threathened with a jail or prison sentence due to neglect.
I realize you may be in a tough financial situation. In a serious case such as yours I do believe that a number of good attorneys will welcome a payment plan of some sort. There are even some who handle critical situations such as your gratis - it would just take alot of phone calls.
I am very conserned about you at this point MJ. You need to listen hard to the people here who are advising you and act. And, as much as I know how you feel about her, please stop calling this idiot (your WW) by the name 'Honey'. That seems degrading to you as well as irritating to the good people who are advising you MJ. I realize she was once your W, but she no longer is. She is now a middle linebacker on the opposing team who is out to gore your QB, and your job as an offensive lineman is to flatten her legally, socially, and emotionally at this time.
I will send some prayers for you MJ, but please get with the program here.
please stop calling this idiot (your WW) by the name 'Honey'. That seems degrading to you as well as irritating to the good people who are advising you MJ. I realize she was once your W, but she no longer is.
Good to see you, Tom. Well, yeah MJ. What Tom said. I wasn't going to say anything, but he's right. The alien who picked the kids up from day care before you is NOT HONEY. Not even close. It's like referring to your butcher as your barber, okay?
It might be a good thing to look at her like an alien, instead of like your former, non-alien wife.
I know that is why I've always called her WW, not Honey..and I think other posters do the same.
I know you are going to feel that my post to you was harsh - and I admit it was, but for a purpose. You are one of the few men on here who have fought - most just come here, look, discuss, and scurry away, as I am sure you have seen. You seem to grasp the ideas and strategy, but your reaction time is slow, that is all.
I wish you the best and I will continue to devote prayers for you unless you tell me otherwise.
Marital - you are truely a goddammed saint! I mean that. Hope you can look in on Writer.
Thanks for your email. I appreciate your advice and kind words about my effort. I will stop calling her "Honey" and will explore low-cost legal help.
FWIW, I prefer not to call WS' "aliens." This implies that morality does not apply to them. To me, they are just plain ol' Adulterers.
By the way, I have read a lot about Plan B. But executing one well requires doing things not always spelled out:
-- money to pay for court fees and legal help.
-- detailed knowledge of legal separation in terms of custody, alimony, etc.
-- a back-up plan in case the WS balks at the conditions of Plan B.
-- if kids are exchanged at the BS' home, have a roster of persons who can serve as an IM; IM's have lives too, and they can't always be available.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Didn't mean to imply the proverbial 'alien' regarding your WW. Just think of her as 'estranged' or simply 'selfish'.
Yes, detailed knowledge of separation and custody, I think you could get a low cost attorney and some advise really MJ. Let me give you just my example of that. When I found out Char had been abused at this nursing home, one of the things I did was to contact attorneys in Elder Abuse. Thought I would have to meet him in his office last spring - nope, he spent about 45 mins on the phone with me regarding rights and options. Took his advice, call the Ombudsman Agency he recommended her in IL - four staff fired, her protected, and the home is now on file and they have had to endure a state review.
As far as a back-up plan in case she balks? In my opinion NO. NO. No. No back up plan MJ. This exercise includes both spine strengthening as well as AB's strengthening! First, if you can, do about 30 bicycles, then about 35 back curls, then 15 chair situps, 20 leg lunges with a 10-lb. weight in each hand, and then about 40 calf raises. I do these nwo every other day since early November. Of courss I am just a tad older. It helps your spine, MJ, and it helps your thinking. Plus, it sort of makes you feel good about being strong! Bottom line is, no way now how no form do you worry now about what she thinks or if your plan b doesnt' work.
I truely wish you well MJ. Ya know. You are a little like my Packers this year. Early injuries, a bleak outlook, but want to know where they are now?
Before I file anything, I need to execute a good Plan B. My email IM is quitting on me and my main physical IM has all but done that. Like John in SAA, my plan B is being crippled.
I can't let it die. Can anyone serve as an email IM for me? I would be in your debt.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife has NOT filed
Hi MJ..it has been awhile, but have been busy with various things lately.
It's very easy for an outsider to attempt to give any advice. However, I sure would continue with the Plan B even tho you do not have a current IM. A lot of people probably don't want to get involved that way because it is a delicate situation. Can you arrange to consistently pick your kids up at her place, and return them there? Even tho you would have that very limited contact with your WW, I don't feel that would jeoprodize or minimize your Plan B - until you find another IM. It would simply be: doorbell ring - "are they ready?" - and adios ma'am! Yes, you may have to exhange a few emails to establish parenting schedules, but these should be minimal as well.
MJ, I think at some point this situation is going to go bust tho. I just cannot see two people continuing like this and not divorce. I am not advocating divorce by any means, but unless there is some clear, substantial movement on the part of your wife in terms of any inclination to reconcile to you I have to say that a total legal separation at least is going to be better for you and for your daughters. In addition, I would still be greatly concerned about your daughters' continuing possible exposure to this OM!
I don't know what else to say MJ, except to hope and say a few prayers for you that something breaks in your favor to break this deadlock, and that is what this is.
My advice is always my sense of the REAL. I don't try to blow smoke up your skirt - I try to offer you real advice so that the next thing that happens is NOT a surprise.
Optimism is fine. Unrealistic optimism is not.
My opinion has always been that you needed to DO something, and instead you chose to hang back and wait. Fact is, my thoughts are that this has likely been an ineffective approach.
My advice is always my sense of the REAL. I don't try to blow smoke up your skirt - I try to offer you real advice so that the next thing that happens is NOT a surprise.
Optimism is fine. Unrealistic optimism is not.
My opinion has always been that you needed to DO something, and instead you chose to hang back and wait. Fact is, my thoughts are that this has likely been an ineffective approach.
I wish you well.
SB
Yep. ITA. Sorry MJ. I want the best for you, but your approach to this has been so lackluster that it breaks my heart. I would have volunteered to be your IM, but I knew you never seriously wanted that. Sigh. I hate to see someone let their marriage slide away.
Not everyone has the strength, trust, or circumstances to execute a perfect "MB plan". But, to blame the loss of a marriage on NOT following your idea of the plan to a "T" is harsh and wrong.
Guess what, sometimes marriages can't be saved no matter what the BS does. Sometimes the two are so withdrawn that no "plan" will work. MJ has done nothing wrong, other than together with his spouse not meet each other's emotional needs. No plan can undo what has accumulated over many years.
Don't you dare tell him that he let his marriage "slide away" because he didn't follow this plan. Totally unfair.
I will respond to everybody's comments tomorrow or this weekend. In the meantime, I have news:
Another friend agreed to serve as an IM. So far, he has been good, sending my WW emails within a few hours of me asking that he send them to her.
Also, my babysitter has agreed to serve as an informal physical IM. I drop the kids off at her place, and slip her a few bucks. Considering that I would drop the kids off only once a week, the amount is minimal.
I got papers today from my WW's lawyer asking that I agree to her terms for legal separation in her state of Virginia. As for tangibles, all she really wants is an extra $270 a month for daycare. (She was ticked in late August that I refused to pay for half the cost of daycare. My response was that I wasn't paying for half of day care when I got the kids only 2.5 days out of the week). As for intangibles, she wants to dictate terms.
I'm not happy my WW wants to file for legal separation. But it's better than her filing for divorce, and all the MB'ers wanted me to file for legal separation anyway.
Don't worry. I'm not signing anything. More details to come. In the meantime, I need to go to bed. I got a big day at work tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
You can counterfile in Virginia for adultery, which does get taken into consideration!
Use this to your advantage!
MJ, as of now, you are officially on defense in the courtroom. Very few football games are won solely by the defense, typically, you want to get your offense on the field as soon as possible and keep it there. If you have a chance to counter this by filing for divorce on the grounds of adultry, I'd dang sure do that and get your defense off the field.
I know you're wanting to hold out hope but you also have to be prepared for what could come. Maybe the thought of a long drawn out messy divorce is the wake up call she needs. If nothing else, doing this NOW would put you in the best possible position for negotiations when it comes to terms of the divorce. And despite what you see on TV, the majority of stuff ends up being negotiated in a divorce. So I guess you have to ask yourself, do you want to be on offense or defense? Personally, I think being on offense gives you the most power to end up with a settlement that is benificial to you when it comes to the kiddo's. If you're not wanting maximum time with them then play defense......
It�s a whole new ball game when D papers are filed. Many men, I�ll go so far as to say that most men, play this game very poorly. They give in on most things and most demands because there is this unrealistic holdout of hope that this is all just crazy and that she�ll return.
It isn�t going to happen through appeasement. It only happens through hardball.
The master of this was Mortarman. He played bigtime hardball with his WW in the courtroom and she realized, deep into the process, that not everything was going to go her way and that she was going to lose a significant amount of time with the kids.
The fog lifted and they are in recovery years later. He saved his marriage. Not by appeasing the WW but by doing everything to make the D difficult and by fighting for his kids.
Let me get to the legal questions and the vets' comments later. For now, I will quote WW's latest email to me:
Quote
I will not have the girls dropped off at the babysitters, then picked up 15 minutes later by me. That is confusing for them, and exactly what I told you I was not willing to do. This is an untenable, unacceptable solution. I am also not willing to accept that you won't answer the phone while the girls are in your care. This is also exactly what I said I would not agree to.
I'm never going through a third party unless it's a court-appointed representative. IM should expect no emails from me.
Please send me your flight information for your trip with the girls to [your home state].
I will pick the girls up at your home on Tuesday, Dec. 28th, at noon.
I don't want The Alien coming to my place anymore. It's too painful and degrading. Would I run into any legal trouble by dropping the kids off at daycare for WW to pick them up?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
I know that Plan B, like Plan A, is all action and little thought. But understanding the mindset of The Selfish One, and waywards in general, is helpful to me. She has filed for legal separation, and her lawyer's cover letter that this was "relative to your impending divorce." So why does WW insist on talking with me and seeing me? Is she cake eating or just trying to control me? ... Something tells me it's the latter.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
IMVHO, yes, not talking to her about child related issues and not allowing for a civil drop off will hurt you legally if you are trying to get anything more than every other weekend. The court will see that if y'all have to interact more (ie more drop offs) that it is harmful to the kids with such drama. The reality is you're heading for divorce. You need to prepare for that. If by some chance your marriage gets saved, that's a bonus but you have to prepare for reality. Right now, it looks like to me, that your sacrificing toorrow to prove a point today. And as I said earlier your totally on defense.
Well, I can't really say that I am surprised that your ww has filed for sep, or that you are that surprised either. It may be a serious goal for her, or may be a ploy to try to control or test you, or a combination of the two - who really knows. IMHO the main thing right now is for you to be intensely prepared for the worst emotionally and legally. And, in my opinion, I would definitely at least get legal advice on the question you posed above, MJ, regarding the exchanges. I feel the answer to your question lies between your ww's demands and your requirements. I.e., a mutually agreeable exhange point - her place, a relative's or friend's place, whatever IS necessary. On other hand, I feel her demand for you to be available to her on the phone or whatever whenever she chooses to talk with you is total bunk! To communicate with her or not, except in case of an emergencey involving your kids (as stated by Helpforlostdads) is YOUR choice. I am not an attorney of course, nor have I gone thru this - just my gut feeling. That is why I feel you need local legal opinion at this point. You should explain to the attorney exactly what Plan B (no communication except thru an IM) means from the MB standpoint, and why you have implemented it (in view of her adultery.
I just feel MJ, that the lack of confidence by not taking the initiative legally (however you can swing it financially) causes you to be more susceptable to her whims.
Please look at it this way MJ - you are not only fighting to regain your lost love, your lost ww from a scum of an opponent (the OM and the affair), you are fighting to protect your nuclear family - the most important element of society. I know you realize this, but thought a reminder would be good at this point. A football team does not strive to win only for the edification of the individual players, it strives to win for the fans as well. W/o them the games and the strife would be meaningless. In a way, your 'fans' are your kids. Please don't disappoint them, and yourself by proceding with an imcomplete game plan.
A quick update: I exchanged the kids without seeing WW last week. She insisted on exchanging the kids the usual way: she comes over to my apartment and I present the girls to her. I insisted on the new way: dropping the kids off at the baby sitters and NOT seeing her. She complied. After I dropped the girls off, the baby sitter called her, and she picked them up.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
In case people are interested, below are some of the terms that my WW seeks in the separation agreement:
1. joint legal and joint physical custody
2. From now until DD3.5 goes to kindergarten in the fall of 2012, the same visitation schedule: I get them from Thursday evening until 2 or 7 p.m. every other Saturday.
3. Once DD3.5 starts kindergarten, I would get the kids every other weekend from Friday evening till Sunday evening AND one night per work week from after school until 7 p.m. AND two non-consecutive weeks of summer vacation with me.
4. I pay her an extra $275 a month to cover half of our expenses, such as day care and credit card dues.
I don't like #2,3, and 4, and I will fight them. Once DD3.5 begins school, I would like to get the kids two whole weeks a month. Driving her to school won't be a big problem. I'd much rather see and spend time with her. As for the extra $269 a month, I'm not going for this either. If WW wants the kids 4.5 days out of the week, she will have to pay for it. I want to see the girls more often, not less often.
In any event, I am sending the separation agreement back to her lawyer and not signing anything. I will talk with my lawyer or get a new one.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
In case people are interested, below are some of the terms that my WW seeks in the separation agreement:
1. joint legal and joint physical custody
2. From now until DD3.5 goes to kindergarten in the fall of 2012, the same visitation schedule: I get them from Thursday evening until 2 or 7 p.m. every other Saturday.
3. Once DD3.5 starts kindergarten, I would get the kids every other weekend from Friday evening till Sunday evening AND one night per work week from after school until 7 p.m. AND two non-consecutive weeks of summer vacation with me.
4. I pay her an extra $275 a month to cover half of our expenses, such as day care and credit card dues.
I don't like #2,3, and 4, and I will fight them. Once DD3.5 begins school, I would like to get the kids two whole weeks a month. Driving her to school won't be a big problem. I'd much rather see and spend time with her. As for the extra $269 a month, I'm not going for this either. If WW wants the kids 4.5 days out of the week, she will have to pay for it. I want to see the girls more often, not less often.
In any event, I am sending the separation agreement back to her lawyer and not signing anything. I will talk with my lawyer or get a new one.
Keep fighting, make this divorce h*ll for her, do not settle for anything less what you want! She thinks she's gunna get everything? HA let her think again
It is so good to see you back here now. I realize you may not have been in either the mood or postion to comment here in the last few weeks, but good for you. And, good for you that you are refusing to accept your WW's demands! As I calculate, her proposed schedule would mean you would have your daughters 9 or so days per month. Wow.
I hope that you will be both understanding of and receptive of any advice you may now get from the veterans here. I know you have gone thru quite alot. I do have to say tho that it seems you are taking charge.
I'm not going to be aggressive with her, which is exactly how she wants me to act (besides being passive). I'll just be assertive and fight for my family.
I want to suggest the following schedule, which was recommended to me by my former lawyer.
Monday and Tuesday with one parent.
Wednesday and Thursday with the other.
Alternate weekends.
This is good for several reasons, though it sounds like a lot at first.
The biggest thing it provides is predictability. This will allow you to schedule events or things for yourself on the nights you don't have your kids and those nights stay consistent.
The kids will have a predictable schedule growing up, which will help them in terms of predictability. Kids associate certain things with parents. For example (for down the road), Monday nights is Monday night Football night with Dad while Thursday nights are American Idol night with mom.
My lawyer explained that stability and predictability like this is very important for a kid and that this schedule gives you that.
It also keeps you more involved in school. It's tough to stay as engaged when you don't see them during weekdays.
It also allows you to schedule the kids for out of school activities on the nights you have them.
Trust me, that is a big thing once they get older. My ex won't sign my kids up for stuff and I don't have the power to sign them up for anything on "her" time. So the kids sit in a daycare till 6:30 every night as a result.
When your WW gives you such a crap schedule, stay very calm. I use to get very upset. The fact is that the courts will give you a fair shake if you are a good dad. So simply turn down her offers politely.
If anything, turn the tables on her and suggest that her proposed schedule is a good one for HER to have.
Privately to her you should tell her that you will seek primary custody on the grounds of adultery.
Privately, know this: the courts don't care about her adultery. Short of her being a crack whore that has sex with other men while the kids are in the bedroom, the courts don't care.
Don't waste your money arguing stupid things like how often she brushes their teeth and that she puts on the wrong sized pajamas on them and feeds them cake and ice cream for dinner every night. The court doesn't care about such things.
They care about big stuff. If the court has an impression that you're both equally good parents, then you can expect to get equal time.
Are the kids primarily with you right now?
Is she out of the house? I'll re-read some of your recent posts just to catch up, but make sure that if she moves away from your school district that you note that SHE is the one who moved, not you.
Keep the faith, my friend, and get yourself some very good books out there. I recommend "Father's Rights".
But don't get worked up. It's easy to say, but I got waaaay too worked up in my own case. It was mostly out of fear that they would believe every crazy claim she made about me. That's not the case at all.
Considering my ridiculous circumstances, I like your schedule. It's predictable and reliable. It would allow me to see my daughters during the week and weekend. That's good. I see them only 2.5 days a week now.
So your kids sit in daycare till 6:30? I'm sorry. What a waste. But you must be a good father. The same thing happens to my kids. They sit in daycare till 6 or 6:30 on Fridays when my WW lives down the block from them.
WW moved out in the fall of '09.
I will look for "Father's Rights."
I told her in the summer that if she filed, I would counter file on grounds of adultery. She huffed and puffed like the big bad wolf but didn't do anything.
One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.
MichaelJan, I have never posted to you before, so excuse me if this seems out of place, but here's my tidbit of advice about the lawyer. It's in the form of a saying:
Quote
Worry is like paying interest on a debt you may never owe.
Deal with it if and when it happens. You have the high (moral) ground. That's all you need to know.
One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.
Yes, MJ, you'll be wasting your breath on him. He's heard it a million times before.
My question is WHY her lawyer is contacting you? Do you not have an attorney to cover your interests? Are you not is a position to be ready to counter-sue for adultery?
help, One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.
This shows that you don't understand the law, which is ok. I didn't either.
He can't contact you directly. Things have to be filed in court and the only reason he would possibly interact with you is in the context of legal proceedings.
You can't take anything lawyers do personally. I did and it was a mistake.
The truth is that they're hired to fulfill their clients wishes to the best of their abilities and to advise their clients.
Family law lawyers don't care if the client is an adulterer or anything else. They've heard it all before.
Experienced ones will try to get you to settle out of court and craft a fairly equitable agreement.
Your own lawyer might ask you to settle as well.
The reality is that fathers who do well are ones who don't settle.
I would encourage you not to settle for anything else than 50/50. If that is put up for settlement, then take it. Odds are low you'd get better in court and you could very well get worse.
A 50/50 arrangement often means no CS for you. That's not your motivation, but it's a side benefit.
Your WW would truly be on her own.
Deal with a lawyer as you would with any professional. That's the key to family law as a dad. Be above the fray. You must be James Bond, especially when dealing with a lawyer.
If you attack the lawyer, it will reflect badly on you.
It's easier said than done, but you can't take anything personally.
I'll give you an example of a mistake I made. My ex's lawyer was attempting to get a rise out of me while negotiating outside the courtroom. He succeeded.
He said, at one point when I wasn't taking the settlement offers they were making, that perhaps I'd feel better if my children were dead.
I blew up at him and his comment really angered me. I blew up at him to the point where the bailiff came out of the courtroom to tell me to calm down. Big mistake. I ran it by my IC. She told me the better response would have been to act shocked and appalled and incredulous that someone would say something like that. That would have made HIM look like the POS he was. Instead, he got me ticked off and my outburst could have really cost me in my case.
It didn't. But that's the lawyers job. Especially against men. They want to get under your skin, get a rise out of you, and portray you as a short fused man who is clearly not worthy of having custody. In fact, your wife needs protection from you and you should only have supervised visitation.
That's what his job will be.
So the secret is to not engage in the game. Answer questions truthfully and professionally and remain cool at all times.
My question is WHY her lawyer is contacting you? Do you not have an attorney to cover your interests? Are you not is a position to be ready to counter-sue for adultery?
I have a lawyer. My WW knows that. However, I may find another lawyer, who would be more affordable.
Following the lead of others on the MB site, I am attempting to drag out her legal maneuvers. I haven't even returned the documents to her lawyer yet. The longer I wait, the more difficult it is on her bizarro A with her AP and the likelier it is that reality will prevail.
My WW filed for legal separation. In Virginia, a person can't file for legal separation on the grounds of adultery; only for divorce can he or she. And I won't file for D first. Now if she files for D, I will counter-file on the grounds of adultery. Does that make sense?
I have a lawyer. My WW knows that. However, I may find another lawyer, who would be more affordable.
The attorneys are the ones who should be communicating. Her attorney should not be in direct contact with you. He knows that. I don't understand why her attorney isn't talking to your attorney?
So give the separation agreement to your attorney at the last minute and tell him to pull it on the bottom of his out box.
According to DD3.5, my WW is buying a house or condo. She mentioned that they had seen the house. She's not even 4 years old, so details were sketchy.
My main question is this: Does owning property help a spouse in a custody dispute?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
She's got her own money. She's paying for it herself, though my IL's may help her.
She may want to separate legally or divorce BECAUSE she wants to buy property. She's talked about buying a house or condo for five years at least.
Yes, I have my own place. It's an apartment in a good part of the city.
Thanks for your help.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
Well, on this Monday I am quite happy that Green Bay will be in the Super Bowl. Believe me MJ, it is a highlight in a time that I am struggling as well with my W in a nursing home now for the past 1 1/2 years.
I had hoped for better developments for you in your situation, but now, and if I was in your shoes, I would try to arrange a heart-to-heart discussion with your W regarding her mind-set and her intentions in terms of the M. I would simply do that as a means of assessing my desire to stay in this M.
She seems to be maneuvering outside your M in terms of purchasing her own home. To me that would pretty much define the end of the M. I am NOT an attorney, but in terms of the tax code, which I am familiar with, monies from a gift or a trust are not included as income on the filing of a joint or individual tax return, unless part of that is considered as earned income - interest or gain on the trust or the gift. Translating that to your situation, if she is purchasing the home from pre-marital assets, or a gift to her ONLY, or from the principal of a trust I feel is not marital property despite what helpforlostdads says. You have to be very careful on this because I feel that the legal definition of marital property and the tax laws are very similar.
MJ, at this point I would seriously consider moving from your Plan B to a Plan "L/F" - protecting yourself and your rights to see your daughters from the standpoint of a strong legal and financial strategy. If you are asking questions about whether or not your W owning her own home will give her an advantage in custody, then I feel you are not getting this.
I just hope for the best for you and will continue to say some prayers for you and your situation, but right now I would just hope that you staff up and fully protect your interests.
MJ, if there is no separation agreement or legal document, then anything purchased is considered joint marital property. If she buys a condo then you're half owner of it.
But run it by an attorney. You're still likely to have half claim to it.
The other option to conisder in all of this is to file in your state and request primary custody.
Thanks for your advice and concern. I hear what you're saying about my WW moving on; it feels like that to me too. But in a talk I had with Dr. H two months ago, he advised sticking to Plan B no matter what my WW does. Not easy advice to take, but he's the wisest and most perceptive marriage expert I know, so I'm attempting to follow his advice.
help,
Thanks too for your advice. I will call my lawyer tomorrow. We spoke briefly Friday morning and exchanged calls that day.
Legal issues no doubt are on my horizon. But for now my biggest problem is an emotional one: What the heck to do on Saturday nights?
For some reason, I have started to feel lonely on that night. I drop my kids off at the baby sitter's (my WW picks them up later), come home, and feel like Hud after everyone's left the ranch house. I have fended the black bear of loneliness so far, but don't know how much longer I can keep him on the ground.
Volunteering won't work; who volunteers on a Saturday night? Rare is the time I can hang out with my friends, most of who are married. I won't go to bars or dance halls. Watching my favorite movies and TV shows and drinking beer is getting old. Any suggestions? Any thoughts?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10
MJ, I think that about everyone goes through that Saturday night thing when seperated or divorced. Initially, I stayed home and drank beers and watched movies. Did that for about 3 years until I was a raging drug addict and alcoholic so I wouldn't recommend that route.
Later I began to do things for me weekly. I took myself out to dinner and a movie, every other week I'd take myself to the mall to buy a new shirt or an outfit, I did arts and crafts also setting up new crafts for when the kids came back, I also found a Church that had services on Saturday night, I took day trips, and those are just a couple of things. The main thing is to get out there and do something to blow the stink off ya.....
Thanks for the advice. I've steered clear of drugs and beer guzzling. I've decided to invite my (male) friends over on Saturday nights to play board games, which is more fun than it sounds; and drink beer, smoke cigars, and shoot the breeze. I'm happy with the plan. I think it will work. That's the good news.
The bad news is that my WW filed. I got served tonight while picking up my daughters from daycare. Pathetic, especially because we haven't so much as communicated in weeks and I'm not dating. But not a surprise, right?
I'll tell my lawyer to counter-file for D on grounds of adultery. The good news is that I've got a good legal plan to cover much of my legal expenses.
That's it for now.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11
My wife no longer uses my surname on her FB account, according to my family members. Plus I got served Thursday night. Doing right by her and our daughters remains my goal. And I continue to take heart in Dr. Harley's advice to stick with her till the fall of 2012, which would be two years after I went to Plan B. But I'm feeling down. Your thoughts and prayers about my sense of listlessness would be appreciated.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11
MJ, a very wise man gave me some advice once (yesterday) that a decent guy with a job and kids that he is good father to is a hot commodity. He said something about a tidal wave of single moms. Something about letting a stoner loose in a twinkie factory...but the details are fuzzy.
Sorry this is happening to you, but you will be just fine down the road.
I am sorry to hear that she filed the petition. I cannot say I am surprised tho with how you have described her behavior.
MJ, in the hope that it is never over until it is over I would encourage you to shift your thread to the divorcing forum, simply because at this point I think you will get ore appropriate advice and counsel.
As far as the Saturday nights, how about cooking - i.e., preparing a really different and special meal(s) for you and your kids. Ever tried lemon salmon loaf, or baked lemon chicken, or a really good tuna casserole? If you are into that it can take your mind off things and be challenging, entertaining, and rewarding. Or this, next time with the frinds coming over make a really great o'rderv (sp) like spinach dip (with real spinach) and roasted french fries. All this stuff would take time, but know what, if you would like it then it would add to your peronal resume.
I realize MJ that you still love your wife, and who would not love their's despite the circumstances. But she seems to be intent on not returning your love, so it seems to be best for you to move forward as it seems you are doing.
A belated congratulations to your Packers for winning the Super Bowl. Their victory could not have shed glory on a more strategic-minded and historically-knowledgeable fan than you.
I understand your point about moving my forum to the divorcing column. My mom doesn't think she's coming back. My sisters don't think she's coming back. Most of my friends don't think she's coming back. But Dr. Harley told me on his radio show, both in May when I first called in and in November, that I may have an opportunity to reconcile with her when her A dies a natural death. For the sake of my kids and my future equilibrium, I need to hold out as long as possible. Plus, my career isn't on track. I may as well wait for a woman until it does.
Expect a miracle -- remember that '70s Catholic slogan? It's true. Look at Mitch Daniels. His wife divorced him, remarried, and came back to him within three years.
I like your ideas about cooking a gourmet meal with my girls. Actually we bake cookies on one of the two nights I have them. But alas, I don't have the two sweeties on Saturday nights. For now, playing Risk, smoking cigars, and drinking beers with the fellas will have to suffice.
Thanks for keeping up with my posts. Your advice has been invaluable. My daughters and I appreciate it; my wife someday too, I hope.
The visitation schedule remains the same: I get my two kids on Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays, alternating drop off times at 2 p.m. and 7 p.m.
I plan to call my lawyer tomorrow (Monday). Per your advice, I will ask him for the following:
-- File for abandonment and spousal support
-- Ask for sole physical and legal custody
-- Ask for Guardian Ad Litem (for the attorney to represent the kids not me)
-- Counter file for divorce on grounds of adultery
That's my plan. My concern is that it might require my attorney to burn up hours and hours. What do you think?
I should have mentioned that under a legal plan covered by my former employer, I get 15 free hours of consultation from my attorney; after the 15 hours expires, I get a 25 percent discount on future legal fees. I'm happy.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11
Brief update: I left a message with my lawyer yesterday. If he doesn't respond to me today, I will call him again tomorrow. That is all.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B Have talked with lawyer Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11
I talk with my lawyer today. This will be our first meeting in person. He sounds like a smart and savvy advocate. He's open to the idea of me filing for spousal abandonment and counter-filing for divorce on adultery grounds, two strategies that helpthelostdads advocated. Yet one thing about this lawyer raises a question in my mind.
He eschews giving me odds about my chances in court. Whether the issue is me getting a 50-50 settlement or filing for sole custody as a method of striking a hard bargain, he won't say if the strategy is likely to succeed or fail. Does his reticence signal that he's not the beau ideal of a bulldog lawyer? Based on my understanding, lawyers SHOULD tell their clients about their odds of success.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I talk with my lawyer today. This will be our first meeting in person. He sounds like a smart and savvy advocate. He's open to the idea of me filing for spousal abandonment and counter-filing for divorce on adultery grounds, two strategies that helpthelostdads advocated. Yet one thing about this lawyer raises a question in my mind.
He eschews giving me odds about my chances in court. Whether the issue is me getting a 50-50 settlement or filing for sole custody as a method of striking a hard bargain, he won't say if the strategy is likely to succeed or fail. Does his reticence signal that he's not the beau ideal of a bulldog lawyer? Based on my understanding, lawyers SHOULD tell their clients about their odds of success.
Lawyers don't like to give you odds and it's understandable why. They could promise you the world and fail to deliver, which does nothing for you and simply opens him up for charges later.
So expect lawyers to be very political about their prognostications regarding family law. The truth is that family law is the wildest form to practice since there is so much decided on emotion, guessing, and gut feelings.
Your lawyer has no idea how you will do on the stand, what the facts of your WW's case against you are, or any of a ton of other factors.
So the fact that he didn't give you a prognostication shows smarts. Be wary of lawyers who will promise you the world.
My ex had one. She basically lost while outspending me by a ton.
Thanks for the explanation, help. It gives me more confidence about my lawyer and sitch.
In other news, I have not seen or talked with WW this year. After picking the kids up on Thursday nights, I drop them off on Saturdays with the babysitter; the babysitter calls WW; and WW picks them up.
At the same time, the WW and I continue to exchange emails, albeit only once every couple of weeks. None of my friends or family members will agree to serve as a true IM. WW sends me a hateful email about once a month, so an IM would be best. But overall I'm happy with my implementation of Plan B.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
There�s no need to speak to her unless there is blood or someone about to die. Don�t respond to any attacking emails. In fact, just scan them to see if there really is anything important in the body of the text. Otherwise just save them for court.
How far do you live from the kids?
You should not settle for anything less than 50/50. You can setup part time daycare options for yourself so that you can put the kids there on your days.
What do you guys communicate about?
You really need to think about the plan you�re in. It isn�t Plan B if you have any communication. You�re not sheltered from abuse if she�s emailing you things you�re reading and vice versa.
The fact is that you have an adequate method to have zero contact with her. Do you have any family that you can forward her messages to? What about a close friend?
That person can read the messages and tell you if there is anything important. Otherwise there is no need to communicate.
I live about 15 miles from WW's new place and 12 miles from our kids' daycare. Putting the kids in another daycare provider would be imprudent. The kids like the babysitter; the babysitter is affordable; and putting them in an unfamiliar environment one day a week would be disruptive.
Yes, I want a 50-50 agreement and won't settle for anything less.
The WW and I communicate about the kids -- their care, their schedules, holidays, etc.
I agree that my plan is not a full Plan B. My problem continues to be finding an IM. Few of my friends and family members agree with Dr. Harley's strategy, or at least the version of it I tell them. My present IM is willing to help, but he does nothing more than forward my emails to WW. Perhaps I should explain to my IM that he needs to scan WW's emails, see if her message is abusive, and respond to me.
Thanks again for your advice.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I met my attorney for the first time. He did not advise filing for abandonment or spousal support or counter-filing for divorce on adultery grounds. His reasoning is that if the judge ruled in my favor on either motion, I would spend more money in attorney and private investigator fees than receive in alimony. I might get an extra $100 a month, but the alimony would be for only a few years and I would spend $3,000 to $5,000 to an attorney and private investigator.
He added that if I counter-filed for divorce on the grounds of divorce, my WW would be so mad she would be less likely to reconcile with me.
My attorney also said that asking for a Guardian ad litem might be a good step down the road but not now.
I told him the visitation schedule advocated by helpthelostdads -- WW would get the kids Mondays and Tuesdays, me Wednesdays and Thursdays, and we alternate getting them on the weekends. He nodded his head at this schedule.
If anyone remembers the title of Mortarman's thread, please give me a holler.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I still need an email IM. Will someone from MB please serve as mine?
None of my friends or family members will help me. They're too busy, disagree with MB's tactics and strategies, or want me to D. All I need is someone two or three times a week. My WW and exchange emails about the kids' clothes, health, and our finances. Otherwise, I am running a good Plan B. She hasn't seen or talked with me all year.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Mrs. Harley read my email on today's show and Dr. Harley responded. Now I'm confused about how long to stay in Plan B.
Dr. H announced a time limit for BS': three years after separation. My WW and I have been separated for 17 months. But she began her EA with her (bozo the clown) AP 30 months ago. It was disrupted for six or seven months at least, a time when she gave birth to our second child. Here is the timeline:
-- Sept-Oct. 08: Her first EA begins and ends -- Oct. '08 I find their emails; call her to the carpet; don't expose -- Dec. '08: She gives birth to DD#2 -- Summer '09: EA likely resumes and likely turns physical -- Oct. '09: She moves out -- May '10 - Nov. '10: Plan A -- Nov. 10 -- present: Plan B
Bottomline: Should I stop my Plan B and move on after the date when she started her EA? Or should I stop it two years after I began?
My guess is the latter. Which is fine by me. I lost my job again and still want to give our kids every shot possible of growing up with their mommy and daddy in the same house.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I followed your advice. WW's various email accounts are now blocked from my main email account. Time to go on offense.
My IM, it turns out, is willing to relay messages from me. I will just need to reward his kind efforts.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
My WW thinks that deciding when to pick up and drop off our kids is her prerogative alone. (In true wayward fashion, she said that picking them up at one time was NOT OK, said that it was OK, and now says it's NOT OK.) If I don't agree to her terms, she will not let me have the kids when my parents are in town. Oh, and she claimed both of our kids for the 2010 taxes. What the hell. This is ridiculous.
I see a couple of options:
-- refusing to pay her my portion of our monthly expenses unless she agrees to compromise.
-- saying she can't have the kids when her parents are in town.
-- exploring my options with my lawyer.
Based on the absence of responses to my previous posts, I am persona non grata on this site. All I can say is that I'm doing my best to adhere to the MB plan. Your advice is appreciated.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
What leverage do you have.... Ummmm none.... IMHO you NEVER use $ or kids as leverage. Cutting to the core here is that your WW does not respect you or your rules. If she stays crazy like my WWXW did then about the only thing she'll "eventually" respect is what comes from her atty or a judge. You'll notice the eventually is put in there, don't overlook that. I was literally in court for years before she respected the law, then she did good for a while and a couple years later (whenever my life was going exceedingly well) she'd show her colors again. Nothing I could do or say would change her but the courts carry a bigger stick let them do the swinging for you, just make sure your side of the fence stays clean my friend.....
I agree with the others, I would use your lawyer. As far as staying in Plan B, that depends on you. Dr Harley only advises WAITING to divorce for 2 years. You can stay in Plan B indefinitely if necessary. I know ppl who never contact their WS even years later.
Do you have a set schedule for the exchange of kids? Is there a court order to pay her any money?
If there is no schedule, then you need to get one ASAP. That means a legal order pending litigation. Don't settle for anything less than 50/50 and document the heck out of everything.
If you don't have a court order to pay her money, then don't!
You're not obligated in any way.
File a complaint with the court through your lawyer and request sole physical and legal custody.
You won't get it, but you do it to shock her and let her see you're not going to just lie down and die.
There is no leverage with a WW. There is not rationale. There is no making sense of things. You're expected to live on her whims.
The only recourse you have is to document and file court papers.
You're not persona non grata here. It's just that the steps to take are tough and they suck and you need to do it.
Nope; I did not think WW would stick to her promises. As Dr. H says, WS's lie and cheat; they think only of themselves. I'm sending an email to my attorney about my options now.
Thanks, Melody. Staying in Plan B for years and years with kids must be especially difficult. But it's gotta be the best approach for both parents; the BS can't be hurt and the WS can't hurt.
Sorry to hear that your WW stayed in the fog so long. My WW has been in it for almost a year and a half. How long has your ex-WW stayed in it?
I ask because Dr. H says 90 percent of affairs die out after three years. Of course, a WS may go into another affair, which would keep them in the fog. Anyway, just wondering.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Yes, we have a set schedule. I get the kids the last three days of the Judeo-Christian week: Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, though on Saturdays we alternate drop offs between the afternoon and evening.
No, there is no court order to pay her money. My previous attorney said that stopping payments to my WW would look bad in the eyes of the court.
I sent an email to my lawyer Thursday, but haven't heard from him. I will call him tomorrow and get back to you.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
MJ, mine is a typical case of what happens when someone doesn't follow the priciples here. I didn't find out the scope and depth of things until we were pretty much divorced which spurred a serious depression and eventually a 3 year filled alcohol/drug binge. But anyway it wasn't until my xw started seeing consequences that her fog began lifting. Once I got my head on straight 3 years after divorce she got her first taste of them. And she faught and faught for about 2 years when my oldest finally had enough and moved in with me. After that she'd show her bad side every once in a while for another year or so. So all in all I'd say she had about 6 years of fog. Though we don't talk I'm pretty sure she's out of it judging by what I see as depression in her life. Oh and 10 years later she's still with her OM. They just got married a couple months back. He's a keeper.....lol...NOT....
I talked with my attorney. He said to pay to my WW our agreed upon amount each month. He also said NOT to contest the fact that she is claiming both of our kids on her tax returns. This will make me look good in the eyes of the court, he said.
I am surprised by his advice. Wouldn't fighting this show that I want to be a father with joint custody? Yes, it could show that I want more money from the government. But it could also show that I will not be a non-custody father.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
MJ, I am replying more to bump than anything else. Others will respond with insight, but for what it's worth, your lawyer sounds like an [censored]. Sorry.
C'mon MJ, how in the world is claiming kids and getting money going to show that you're a good father? Exactly.....
I can't speak to your courts but around my parts the Judges absolutely will not order Shared Custody or 50/50 whatever you want to call it because they say that it requires an extra amount of communication etc with the ex. Now me and my X actually agreed upon it but before that I was told the same as you for the fact that if we can't get along now and agree to these things then how are we going to be able to do that in the future. Heck I paid CS 60% higher than I had to for like 6 months while our case made it through the system. As it turns out my atty was right and he knew the Judges temperment.
Don't focus on money. Too easy to paint you as simply wanting more time to pay less CS.
The taxes and the kids are something you'll need to negotiate for the future.
Focusing on money doesn't make you look good. As wrong as it may feel, your lawyer is right. Make a deal out of money when it comes to determining CS, which won't happen until after you have a set schedule.
As far as staying in Plan B, that depends on you. Dr Harley only advises WAITING to divorce for 2 years. You can stay in Plan B indefinitely if necessary. I know ppl who never contact their WS even years later.
WHOA Nelly. Can you point me to where Dr. H says that one should wait to divorce for TWO YEARS?? Even in Plan B, you'd be allowing your WS to put your life and recovery on hold, especially if you're young and without children (like me) and would like to move on to someone who can manage to honor their vows!
I own the third edition of SAA. On page 83, Dr. H says that John, the BH, gave himself 18 months to implement Plan B, not two years. That's news to me. When I talked with him on the radio show last November, he told me to wait two years to implement Plan B. Might Dr. H be confusing the timelines?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I wrapped up my federal taxes. I will pay Uncle Sam an extra $3,000 this year because I cannot claim the child tax credit and daycare credit, despite that I care for my daughters two and a half days a week. WW decided to take the exemptions for both kids (and can probably file as head of the household, giving her extra money). Ah, the fruit of infidelity and separation is sweet.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
It's however long you can stand it. For men, Dr. H recommends six months. After that you're either A) burned out and too worn out to continue, or B) Avoiding taking action because you've grown comfortable being a doormat.
But you've made it clear long ago that you don't listen to anyone. It's an echo chamber in here. Good luck and goodbye.
I don't understand your complaints. Dr. H says to wait as long as two years. Where has he said to wait as "long as you can stand it"?
And I don't listen to anyone? I've made up my own mind plenty, but I've also followed Plan A and B. I've exposed. I've attempted to meet my WW's EN's. I've done a Plan B as much as possible for someone who can't get a reliable email IM.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I have my kids till this Saturday, but the baby sitter won't be present. This physical IM agreed to take the kids this Friday. Then I contacted WW. Why do I want, she asked, to drop them off "on such short notice."
The real answer is that I don't want to see WW, which will happen if I drop the kids off on Saturday. What answer would the vets recommend giving her? Read my Plan B letter baby?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Nobody will agree to serve as my email IM. I asked twice on this forum if anyone would serve as mine; I sent an email to Dr. H; and two of my previous email IM's quit on me. I don't know what to do.
If you can think of a clever answer to my WW, I would appreciate it.
Nobody will agree to serve as my email IM. I asked twice on this forum if anyone would serve as mine; I sent an email to Dr. H; and two of my previous email IM's quit on me. I don't know what to do.
If you can think of a clever answer to my WW, I would appreciate it.
I'm not sure if you would be comfortable saying this, but I would say: "It is not in my best interest to meet with you, so this way would work out better."
And then she'll probably respond "Well, it's not in my best interest blah blah blah." Whatever. I wouldn't have a conversation about it. I would just repeat myself.
That's the tricky part of being in a fluid Plan B.
I'm not sure if you would be comfortable saying this, but I would say: "It is not in my best interest to meet with you, so this way would work out better."
And then she'll probably respond "Well, it's not in my best interest blah blah blah." Whatever. I wouldn't have a conversation about it. I would just repeat myself.
I like your answer.
I also thought of another response. "You failed to apologize to me for flipping me off in front of the kids last fall. I am unwilling to be treated with disrespect."
I understand you don't want to see her, but you're arming her and her legal arguments by cutting your time with them short.
Suck it up and give her the kids when you're supposed to.
I hear you: Don't give her ammo. But dropping the kids off Saturday night or Sunday might work. WW may not agree to the revised time; in fact, she probably won't. But asking her doesn't hurt my family's cause.
I got a letter from my lawyer this afternoon. It said that a scheduling conference for D will be held next month. This meeting is where both the WW and I show up in court and answer a few questions from a judge?
... I still can't believe this is happening. It'd be one thing if I were dating or a womanizer or an abuser. Oh well, I will continue to fight for what's right for my family.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
I should give everyone a general update on my sitch. Yes, I'm jobless and yes, my WW is divorcing me. But every thing else is going well. Crazy, but it's true. Following Dr. H's Plan A & Plan B has really helped me.
For example, I am making major progress at eliminating a two-decade long bad habit. I wrote a list of the triggering conditions that caused me to indulge in this bad habit. And on a sheet of paper, I wrote ten things to do to conquer this bad habit; on the left side were the goals and on the right were the steps I took that day. Those steps included strengthening my prayer life, getting a priest-accountability partner, turning off the Internet before 10 p.m., and exercising every day I don't have my daughters. The plan has worked. I have not indulged in the vice in a month.
Also, I have really enjoyed this week with my daughters. With my mom and sister in town, we have done a ton of stuff. We went to the park several times, had an Easter egg hunt, cleaned up and redecorated my apartment, grilled chicken and hamburgers, went to Mass, and ate out. My girls have been happy. They've laughed, played, ate well, and slept a lot. If only every week could be like this.
I feel like a new man. Or at least a more mature, competent one; I don't make the mistakes of my past.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Judges aren't normally in the habit of asking people questions. You will go with your lawyer and hers and hammer out a schedule for future litigation dates. Expect for things to take many months. They'll also expect you and her to go to mediation, attend a coparenting class, and try to negotiate a settlement. If your WW agrees to a 50/50, then take it and end it. If she insists on primary, then fight for the 50/50 minimum.
The key to all of this is to not get emotional. It's easier said than done. But you don't have to accept things you don't like. Think of it like negotiating for the price of a new car. If the dealer comes back with an offer, you simply say "no thanks" and counter or walk away. I say this to you because I use to get upset at offers I'd get which were polished turds. If the offers are that bad, then simply say that you'll take your chances with the judge since you can't do much worse than what they offer.
Thanks for the advice. I will also get that book you recommended.
To everyone,
My oldest daughter, who's almost 4 years old, woke whimpering about mommy and daddy. She told me she wants WW and I to get back together. Should I have explained to her that mommy is having an affair and that affairs are wrong?
I'm torn. On the one hand, DD3.9 should know the truth about why mommy isn't with daddy. On the other hand, I wonder if she can deal with it at her tender age. Your thoughts are appreciated!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
MichaelJan - I can only offer support, as I'm in a similar place with a 5 year old. The definition of 'age appropriate' escapes me. Your daughter can't process 'affair', so you'll need to make it more simple. My brain isn't big enough for this question - I'm struggling with the same issue.
MJ: I know the "guys" are helping you, but I want to give a big shout out and congrads for your personal progress and self. Good for you!! The time you have spent with your girls sounds fantastic.
I don't know the vice you're kicking, and I don't care. Keep up the good work, OK? Stay proud.
Oh, and I am reading out of order. To your little one about mommy and daddy? Gosh, I hope someone comes along with some helpful words for you, MJ. Bless your heart.
Thanks for your support. I agree: the definition of age appropriate is difficult. I told DD3.9 yesterday that mommy loves another man and not daddy. She asked a few questions, but my statement did not seem to sink in.
I appreciate your words, and said a prayer just now for your family to reconcile.
Surfer88,
Thank you too for your support of my attempt at reform. I won't name the vice. But I will say that it hurt my marriage. In any event, your encouragement is much appreciated. After my wife moved out, I thought more people would support my efforts at reconciliation. A few friends and posters on this site have been. But the number is less than I thought. That's human nature, I guess, and my Inspector Closeau-like effort at times to restore my marriage.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
MJ, I was happy to read your update. Good job on working on yourself.
As far as your daughter, at this age she probably doesn't understand because in her little mind all she knows is that she wants her mommy AND daddy. As she gets older, she may start to get it and her mom may be in for a surprise. Good for you for not hiding the truth. Kids tend to internalize things and blame it on themselves. It's important that she knows none of this is her fault.
As for the hearing, I agree. It will probably be the Judge asking your lawyer about where you guys are in settlement, etc. Judges like to move things along and have a schedule to things. They want it off their docket.
I'm sorry you're having to deal with all of this. As for your "vice", we've all sinned and no one among us is perfect. It's a process, not an event. You'll get there. Stay strong and continue to be a good dad. At least one of you is sane right now.
Last January, helpthelostdads recommended I read books about getting a good child custody deal. He said,
Quote
I recommend "Father's Rights".
I ordered the book this afternoon. It should arrive later next week. Hearing from WW about her demands and disrespectful judgments got me religion on this issue. Well, that, and posters' remarks that I don't take others' advice. While I have taken some of the vets' advice, I wish I had taken more. Buying and reading this book will help repair the imbalance.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Hi MJ, Just wanted to say that it is good to see you still posting here, and congrats on your self-improvement success! It just seems that you are more relaxed and more confident now than you were just a few months ago. I think it enables you to weather your WW's behavior much better.
Speaking of exercising, I began (what I call) a rigorous exercise program back at beginning of March. Spent quite abit of time on the Internet studying various exercises and found that alot of them require weights. Then came across a couple of sites advising how to 'construct' homemade weights - milk containers filler with water for arm curls, a briefcase full of my old textbooks for seated calf raises, and various inexpensive resistance equipment for arms and chest. Not wanting to get muscle-bound (which at my age is probably impossible...*s*) but I just feel alot better and more challenged. My son has some of his weights here, but am not going to tackle them until I get farther along in this phase. Also, if I do feel up to it I'd love to do a couple of long-distance bike-a-thons this summer for charities. We'll see.
Just stay on the course that you are - alert and proactive! You never know MJ, and as they say in sports it "ain't over til it's over". Your WW may wake up and realize what she is giving up. Even if that does not happen, you emerge a better person for it.
Speaking of exercising, I began (what I call) a rigorous exercise program back at beginning of March. Spent quite abit of time on the Internet studying various exercises and found that alot of them require weights. Then came across a couple of sites advising how to 'construct' homemade weights - milk containers filler with water for arm curls, a briefcase full of my old textbooks for seated calf raises, and various inexpensive resistance equipment for arms and chest. Not wanting to get muscle-bound (which at my age is probably impossible...*s*) but I just feel alot better and more challenged. My son has some of his weights here, but am not going to tackle them until I get farther along in this phase. Also, if I do feel up to it I'd love to do a couple of long-distance bike-a-thons this summer for charities. We'll see.
Thanks for the tip! I've been meaning to exercise more -- in half an hour plan to run for a few miles -- and watch TV less during the week. I like your idea of using water-bound milk cartons. But why use those instead of push ups? Perhaps you would say a person, especially a man, should do BOTH?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
As far as your daughter, at this age she probably doesn't understand because in her little mind all she knows is that she wants her mommy AND daddy. As she gets older, she may start to get it and her mom may be in for a surprise. Good for you for not hiding the truth. Kids tend to internalize things and blame it on themselves. It's important that she knows none of this is her fault.
How right you are, on both counts. Last month, DD3.9 drew stick figures of four people. I suspected the identities of the four, but had her tell me. "The tall one (on the left) is daddy, and the small one holding his hand is me; and that tall one (on the right) is mommy and (DD2.3) holding her hand." She explained that mommy and daddy are her favorite people in the world. I put the picture on my refrigerator. It has remained there since.
The other night, I talked with DD3.9 about the separation. She said she DID blame herself for the breakup. I couldn't believe it. She's not even four years old. She.had.zero.to.do.with.the.breakup.
princess also writes,
Quote
At least one of you is sane right now.
Thanks for restating the obvious! When I talk with some of my friends and family members, they tell that there is zero hope of recovery. I remind them of Dr. H's experience with couples and Mitch Daniels' story. They acknowledge the point but don't concede it. So reminding me that I'm doing the right thing is good to hear!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Hi MJ, Interesting question, but I do both the pushups and the arm curls (with the milk containers). First is for pectorals and shoulders and the latter is for biceps and arms. What I do now is: pushups, triceps dips (backward pushups using a chair), arm curls (with the containers), one-legged calf raises (using the stairs here), seated calf raises, bycycle, vertical crunch (both for abdominals), explosive leg lunges, walking leg lunges, and hand grips (resistance) for arms, chest and shoulders. I do them every other day and takes about 45 minutes. Believe me MJ, that knockes any stress right out of me. I spent quite abit of time looking up the best exercises for men, and found that You Tube offers the best advise - all kinds of ratings and demos. The hardest think is to keep it going each time, but once I get into it I love the challenge. Take care.
Today has been emotional; hence my frequent posts. But the vets may find the following story of interest. I had a verbal confrontation this afternoon with one of my WW's chief enablers.
Five years ago, the woman sought to break up my marriage, saying I wasn't good for WW (then known as Honey). A year and a half ago, she encouraged WW to separate. (I don't know the exact nature of her beef, by the way. She has been pleasant around me). In any event, I ran into her this afternoon. I had taken my kids to an Easter egg event at the park, and I suspected she and her family might be there. On the way over to the event I told DD3.9 not to talk with the woman, as she has not been a friend to our family. About halfway through the event, I saw their family arrive, walking about 50 yards away. I avoided them. Ten minutes later, I saw her husband nearby and avoided him. But on the way to my parked car, I ran into her. Then it started.
-- "Hi (DD3.9)!" she said in an unnaturally loud voice. "Hi MJ." I did not say anything, but DD3.9 smiled and walked toward her. Then I said the following: -- "You knew about WW's affair with the douche-bag from the beginning and did nothing about it, right?" I said in an emotional tone. -- Her plastic smile faded. "This happened after she moved out of your house," she said. -- "That doesn't make it right. You attended our wedding. I stayed true to my vows. She hasn't stayed true to hers," I said, getting upset. -- "MJ ..." -- "You're not her friend. You're an enabler," I told her. At this point, DD3.9 started crying and the woman sought to comfort her, bending down on her knees. "This isn't appropriate time to have this conversation." -- I bended down on my knees. "I reached out to WW's friends and none of them helped my family. Why don't you explain your behavior to your mother [a saintly, god-fearing Christian]." -- "I will!" she huffed. -- The woman again sought to comfort DD3.9. I told her to stay away from my kids and walked away.
I've thought about the scene above a lot today. I also talked with a sister and a good friend about it. Our conclusion is that me standing up to and telling this woman was good. I didn't swear or touch her, I just chastised her. She needs to be held accountable for helping destroy a family and she was partly.
But we also agreed that DD3.9 should not have been put in a situation in which she cried. I should have known that. And thinking the matter over more, I suspect helpthelostdads may swing a 2x4 my way.
Bottomline: The next time I run into one of WW's enablers, I will act differently. I won't get emotional or chastise. I will say the following: "Look, I'm not going to be phoney. I'm walking down the street with my two daughters and without my wife partly because you enabled her adulterous relationship. That's all I have to say. But if you like, you can say hi and talk briefly with DD3.9.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful and confident
Hello MJ, Well am catching up here somewhat, so am posting more than I have been in awhile.
Think you answered your own question MJ, except for saying anything to her about what she did. I think each of us has at least one person in the world we don't care to be around at all for whatever reason. She seems to be the kind of smug person who could care less about her role. So, chastising her, even tho it feels good, is probably not wise or effective. Think just a brief aknowledgement like a simple 'hello' and then go your way is sufficient and would will save you some grief. I know, it's easy for me to say! At some point she will have to answer to the 'Just Chastiser' anyway for the harm she caused.
But if you like, you can say hi and talk briefly with DD3.9.
Uh-uh. Just because someone speaks to you does not mean that you have to acknowledge them. You don't owe her anything. If there is a next time, that person doesn't exist. Hindsight and all that, you've said your piece (good for you!) but she is an enemy to your family and doesn't deserve to be in the same space as your child (or you!), much less offering any kind of "comfort".
Next time, avoid such confrontations around your little one-- just walk away. She didn't need to hear that with everything else going on.
But I was guilty of similar during this very emotional time period you're going through.
Don't do it anymore.
Be above the fray if you want custody. That woman can be brought in to testify against you. She'll create a story where she felt yelled at and threatened and will say you did it all in front of your daughter.
You'll be portrayed as emotionally unstable and dangerous for the kids.
You're a man. You're not allowed anger. Remember that.
Hindsight and all that, you've said your piece (good for you!) but she is an enemy to your family and doesn't deserve to be in the same space as your child (or you!), much less offering any kind of "comfort".
I agree: She does not deserve to be in our space. The problem is, she is around my kids. She likely sees DD3.9 and DD2.3 every week or so, as she has her own two young kids. To DD3.9, the Enabler is a good friend. Next time, I will give my pithy spiel and walk away.
Just thought I would pass this along to you. I had a good laugh this afternoon. Got home early today and did most of my exercises. The leg lunges I do outside on the walkway here now that the weather here is dceent. While I was proceding a woman who lives here came up after parking her car and asked if I was okay. I stopped and couldn't help laughing - not at her of course, but the situation. I just told her what I was doing and she said she probably expected I was exercising, but am sure she saw me sort of lurching and stuttering down the walkway and a little unsteady (you have to do these with hands on hips so it creates balance as well). We both had a good laugh and that sort of made my day.
I like your story. She must have thought you were drunk or incapacitated, right? Regardless, you strike me as a medical marvel -- a veteran doing exercises that would make Lombardi proud.
But I was guilty of similar during this very emotional time period you're going through.
Don't do it anymore.
Be above the fray if you want custody. That woman can be brought in to testify against you. She'll create a story where she felt yelled at and threatened and will say you did it all in front of your daughter.
You'll be portrayed as emotionally unstable and dangerous for the kids.
You're a man. You're not allowed anger. Remember that.
I feared that help's analysis above would come true, and part of it has already. WW wrote me an email accusing me of being erratic and irrational. She expressed several concerns: 1) I "berated" her friend. 2) I told my DD's not to pray for the Enabler's family. 3) I was late dropping off the kids. 4) Why did I lose my last job?
I plan to explain my side of the story and express regret for causing DD3.9 to cry. Of course, I would also like to accuse her of being irrational -- taking the kids away from me on the night I have them; threatening to take them away if I don't agree to her demands; the Enabler's acknowledgment that WW was and is an adulterous relationship.
What does everyone think?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
1. WW dislikes my lawyer for "dragging his feet." She said our case won't be settled till next year. This will cost thousands of dollars, she claims. I was happy to hear this. To me, her complaints are those of a typical WS not getting her way.
2. I talked with my lawyer. He said I do not need to attend the scheduling conference this week in my case. He added that a court won't schedule a custody hearing for another 90 to 120 days. To my ears, this too is good news.
3. I talked with a priest/spiritual adviser about my encounter with WW's friend. Like helpthelostdads, he said that talking with the friend was good, but that making my daughter cry was not. He said I need to honor the cardinal virtue of temperance: letting reason rule our emotions, especially anger. He makes a good point.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
You�re going to have moments of weakness. If you�re confronted about the incident, own it. Say that you�re sorry, that you learned from the experience, and that you won�t ever do it again.
Own your mistakes. That will impress the court more than trying to dodge them.
Trying to portray your ex as unstable because of petty stuff won�t get you far. Petty is the norm in family court. Focus on the real issues. Do you have proof of adultery? Do you have solid proof or irresponsible behavior.
There is a very big disconnect with what works in family court and what works in the MB forums in the sense that courts don�t care about adultery, for the most part, unless you live in a state where it is a factor.
The court puts equal blame on the failure of the marriage on both parties. It then focuses on either what is in the best interests of the kids. Short of some sort of massive abuse (physical or psychological) they�re not going to say that someone is a bad parent because of little things.
So focus on you. It�s all that you can control. Whether or not your wife is happy about how long the process takes is irrelevant.
Go to every single court appearance and use it as a chance to make a good impression on the judge. It may just be a scheduling conference, but do things which stand out to the judge. Wear a suit. Look warm and calm and reasonable. Bring family to be at your side if possible. DO NOT bring any girlfriends or someone who may look like a new significant other.
You may not need to be at the scheduling conference, but every single appearance can make an impression on the judge based on intangibles. Do you have family there? Are you friendly and smiling? Do you look at your ex with hate? Do you seem approachable? Do you look like someone who would be a good father?
Put together a binder of pictures of you to submit into evidence. Show yourself as a kid with your parents, in the Boy Scouts, no a sports team (short section on your background) and then a ton of you as a father. I put together a video of the kids and I doing things together or at my house. I showed them playing happily. I showed me reading to them. I showed how comfortable they were around me. I had tons of pictures of them with me. Make that the bulk of your folder. Submit it as evidence during discovery and put it together for the judge to page through. Don�t make it horribly long (ten or so pages).
Same with the video. Make it 5 to ten minutes (that�s pushing it). Put it on DVD and put extras in there if they wish to see them (such as you playing with the kids or doing stuff for them).
Become super dad. Cook for them. Bake for them. Show that you have a home that is ready for them and meets all their needs. If you have a BIA (best interest attorney) then let them seen tons of toys at your house. Let it look like a place that kids live in and not one that is clinical and not accommodating to kids.
Put their needs first and foremost in all you do.
Forget the wife. Forget what motivates her. If she accuses you of anything, deny it unless she has proof.
Mistakes get made, but judges know that the emotions are super high in these cases.
If you play your cards right, there will be a very big reality check on your WW where she will have to face the reality that she may not get primary custody, would be lucky to get 50/50, and might even lose custody.
Document your interactions with the kids. Make all your interactions with your WW as cordial and non emotional as possible. Recognize her contacts to you as attempts to get rises out of you to portray you negatively in court.
Every single thing you do will be scrutinized. Every single outburst will be blown out of proportion. The key is not to be suckered into engaging, which they will try to do a lot.
They will try to do things to portray you as vindictive, such as bringing up your exposure as attempts to smear her. If that is the case, then simply deny that that is your intent and that you were simply trying to end the affair by bringing out of secrecy and into the open in the hopes that family and friends could pressure it to end.
The fact is that your WW will likely not wake up for a while, especially during the legal fight. She is likely not to wake up unless she sees very real consequences to her actions.
A Plan A during legal proceedings is called for, but it must be tempered with caution since so many things can be turned against you.
Anything you put into writing can be used against you, so be wary of responding to her attempts to engage. I sent a very angry email to my ex which came back to haunt me later.
So don't engage with her at all in writing unless it deals with logistical things with the kids.
Be efficient, to the point, and focused solely on logistical matters with the kids.
Don't give them any ammo. If you show a wounded attitude, it disarms them and doesn't give them much to use against you in testimony.
There's a big difference between, "When I've interacted with him, all he's done is say that he's sorry that WW is having an affair and that he'd like to restore his family. He didn't say much beyond that." versus, "He made his daughter cry and berated me in front of her. I felt very threatened by his yelling. He scared me and I worry about his temper."
Disarm her friends. Don't accuse them of enabling her. Instead of that, say, "It would be nice to have your support in keeping our family together. It's ultimately what is best for the kids."
Pretend everything is being watched by a judge and let that guide your actions.
Have you filed for sole physical and legal custody?
I understand that you won't get it, but you file for it anyways. You throw down the gauntlet.
I also got the impression that she moved out, not you. So if you're in the marital home that's good.
If you're offered 50/50 by her, take it and run and then go to Plan B with total darkness. Hard to do with little ones. Basically impossible once you're divorced since you will have parent-teacher conferences, sporting events, classes, recitals, plays, etc.
But cutting off all unnecessary contact is a big step in the healing process.
Look up Mortarman and his thread. He's recovered, but he fought for custody tooth and nail and it wasn't until the WW saw how much she was going to lose that she came around and woke up.
It's ironic, but makes sense. I think that if I had played my cards right from a legal standpoint and put the fear of God into my WXW about the fact that she was genuinely threatened with losing custody she may have tried to reconcile.
Hindsight is 20/20. I wish I could have dealt with her by showing little to no emotion (like James Bond). But I didn't.
I came away with a good custody arrangment, but that's because I fought for it tooth and nail.
I live in D.C. Our marital home was in D.C., which I was forced to leave last June.
Our case is being handled in (northern) Virginia, a state that considers adultery for alimony, which my WW is not claiming.
If only I had heard sooner to attend the scheduling conference. Oh well. I have a job interview tomorrow morning, so it's not a total loss.
As for what's been filed, WW wants joint custody but me getting the kids every other weekend. I want 50/50 and will stay firm on this. FWIW, my lawyer did not think I could get more beyond 50/50. But let me ask him again tomorrow or Friday. Perhaps he will change his mind.
Is your point about me filing for sole custody that doing so may wake up WW from the fog?
My priest/spiritual adviser recommends sending an apology to my WW's enabler for the manner in which I spoke, not the content of my words. I would write, "I'm sorry for admonishing you about my wife's affair. I did not mean to raise my voice and get emotional. All I want is for my family to reconcile. The past 18 months have been painful and difficult." My priest said that writing such an email or letter would show heroic virtue. Do you think such a message would be prudent?
If you put it in writing you will be admitting to what she claims. If you don�t, then it�s a he said/she said issue. I would not do this. If you�re ever confronted about it you can deny that you ever raised your voice or said anything bad. DO NOT admit to anything in writing.
As far as custody goes, go by what your lawyer says, but mine asked for it all, knowing that we wouldn�t get it. But I will say it shook the ex that I would take such a step. So there is psychological value to doing so.
It is really good to see you still posting here in spite of yoru situation. I now it is tough, but ya know what, I sort of have a gut feeling that in the end she will see you as her best choice. Just a gut feeling on my part.
Kerala, I stongly disagree with your opinion. I believe that MJ listened to his heart and confided in his priest. That should be commended and not willy nilly advised against in terms of lawyers. MJ, in my humble opionion you did the right thing and you do not need to be afraid of what some willy nilly lawyer could possibly make of this.
In the meantime, I had let my exercising go for a few weeks back in the end of April and early May. But am back at it. Even tho I restarted it makes me feel good and now I am starting to feel the difference. I feel better and more alive in waking up and stronger. A good feeling. Hardest part is keeping on keeping on, but I do it as a challenge to my body.
Anyway, I know you are trying to get thru and resolve this uncertainty with your W and your family and I know that has to be really tough. But, compared to many others that I have seen on here your persistence and your dedication here is a shining example of a guy who unflinchingly loves his wife but has to put up with her personal failure.
I hope and pray that you remain persevering and continue to post here MJ, and also I think really you could begin to post to other BH's with your example.
Thanks again for all of your encouragement and advice. Reading your post yesterday made my day. Finally, I thought, a hope in the unseen! Somebody thinks our family will make it through!
I still hope WW returns. A reconciliation would be best for everyone -- her, me, our kids. It would be difficult -- extremely difficult based on what Dr. H and Mark1952 say. But divorcing, attempting to get an annulment, finding another wife, and integrating her into my life would also be difficult. God has a plan, I guess. I don't like it, but what can I do?
I am glad to hear about you exercising again. You sound like a champ. Do you ever combine the strength training with running or walking?
I hear you about me posting to other BH's threads. We're thinking along the same lines. I read part of the thread "Confronting the OM" and need to give him my two cents.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
The mediator called me yesterday and left a message. (A custody hearing in my case has been set for late September and a trial date for late October) My lawyer says I need to set up a meeting with the mediator. Does delaying the meeting do any good?
I'm undecided. On the one hand, I would like to get all meetings out of the way, as I am job hunting. On the other hand, I figure that the closer our case goes to trial the more WW will crumble, as WS's don't want their dirty laundry aired publicly.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
You need to get books on this and understand the process. There won't be any airing of laundry with a mediator.
They will try to get you guys to come to an agreement regarding custody and division of assets and avoid a trial.
If you get 50/50 custody, then take it and run. If you don't, then take it to trial.
It's really that simple. Stuff can be replaced. So don't go 20 rounds over the set of dishes since you could buy 10 with what you'll spend on lawyers.
DO go 20 rounds on getting a minimum of 50/50 custody, if not full out primary.
If you get it, then run with it and make a deal.
If you don't get it, then don't settle for less.
But there won't be any airing of dirty laundry and bringing up such things makes you look bad to the mediator who could blame you for having things fall apart.
Thanks. Your continual posts on my threads are helpful and inspiring even.
I bought "Father's Rights" and read about a quarter of it. I will send you an update sometime soon, perhaps this weekend.
I will call the mediator now.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
A brief update: I meet with my lawyer tomorrow to discuss the likelihood of me getting a 50-50 custody settlement. Also, I need to return the call of the mediator in my case.
I would provide an update on "Father's Rights" by Jeffery Leving but realize I need to read it again. I was going to wonder what's the worst thing that can happen if my case goes to trial, but after I read this section briefly, I see that a trial can take two or three years and tens of thousands of dollars! Still, seeing my kids every other weekend is unacceptable.
More to come ...
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 WW lives in Va. OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
I talked with my lawyer this afternoon. The most interesting thing he said is that unless I reach a mediated settlement with WW in the next few weeks, he will send a deposition to the OM. If the OM and WW are continuing their A and showing affection to each other around my kids, this fact will hurt her in a custody battle. He raised the possibility of hiring a private eye. Which raises a question in my mind: Shouldn't I just take the pictures of them together and her sleeping at his house? This would save money.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.0 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 WW lives in Va. OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
MichaelJan - ask your lawyer about that. A private eye in this state told me that it needs to be a third party to help make it more credible. The PI should get a picture of them entering the house and exiting the next morning. It passes a reasonableness standard.
3rd party. Don't get crazy doing this, though. Some basic evidence should be enough.
But a deposition is a good idea to do on OM.
It's expensive, though.
You put him under oath and he has to answer the questions or perjure himself. It's a real wakeup call.
Bring evidence to throw at him, such as phone records.
A PI pic taken prior to deposition would be good. The place to catch him in a lie is just before court. You can do things in a deposition you could never do in court. There is no "discovery" for a deposition, so you could throw evidence at him as a "surprise".
For example:
Are you having a relationship with WW?
Him: No, we're just friends.
Have you ever spent the night at her house or have her spend it with you?
Him: No.
Could you please explain this: (picture of them kissing or holding hands).
Then present the picture of her car or his overnight at someone's house.
Get it on a night your kids are over there, which would also show that they're doing stuff with the kids around.
But depositions are expensive.
If, however, you can settle with your WW for 50/50 (settle for no less), then take it. Save the expense if you can.
Thanks for following my thread. I will follow yours.
Yes, I will ask my lawyer. Good idea. It's just that Mark1952 advised me once to snap photos of the two by myself.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.0 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 WW lives in Va. OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Thanks again. Your detailed posts are most helpful.
The OM acts fairly strategically. He surely asked my WW to destroy the computer she used to send their email messages of lust; the computer was replaced a month before WW moved out. And whenever he called my home, I learned later, he called on an unlisted number. His dad was a cheater, so he learned a few tricks of the trade so to speak.
The OM will DEFINITELY lie in a deposition. He lied to his wife about his A with WW. He lied to me twice about their A when we spoke and once when he sent me an email. And, it seems fair to conclude, he has coached WW to lie or not admit to their A. He's a liar. (I know, I know: shocking). Is lying in a deposition considered a crime or big deal in a custody case?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.0 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family Plan B/D WW lives in Va. OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
He's under oath and his words are admissable during a deposition.
But he's not as important to catch in lies as your WW is. Her lying under oath is a bad thing. Getting him and your WW to contradict each other gives you ammo for the trial.
Understand that you won't have a trial right away. I had a pendente lite hearing, which is a step before a trial. This was done before a Master, which acts the same way a judge does and is addressed the same, but who isn't a judge.
Pendente lite means (pending litigation) which is to establish a temporary custody arrangement until you can have a merits trial. The "temporary" arrangement has a habit of becoming the permanent one.
I don't know what the rules of your state are, but that's how it was in MD.
You prep for your PL hearing as you would for court.
Have you requested a best interests attorney to represent your kids? That might be a very good idea. Mine was very fair in my case.
I did ask my lawyer. He said that the county in which WW filed does not allow best interests attorneys.
In other news, I talked with a representative from a mediation service. He recommended that WW and I get two mediators in our case -- a male and female. The cost for the extra mediator is $45 an hour. Is getting two mediators advisable? Also, should my lawyer be present during the mediation?
One final issue: DD4's ballet recital is this Sunday. WW will be there, as will two of her Enablers, including the one I scolded last month. Part of me thinks that if I showed up late, I would not see WW and her Enablers, could get credit for cooperating with WW, and would enjoy seeing DD4. Part of me also thinks that on this matter, I should stick to Plan B. What do you think?
Thanks again. Your advice is invaluable. I owe you!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 33 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.0 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family Plan B/D WW lives in Va. OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
The vets on this site will advise you better than me. But yes, you should expose your H's A! Now! To everyone you know! At the same time!
... OK, enough with the histrionics; but yes, you need to expose your H's A as soon as possible; the longer his A continues, the tougher it is to break up, as friends and family get accustomed it and think you don't care. Do you have your own thread?
I just saw your message. You could go either way on the recital, but I would tell you to go, not for legal reasons, but just to have the memory. Sit away from the WW and don't interact.
As far as having two mediators: I think it's a waste of money to have two mediators. I had male and female mediators and didn't feel a bias from either of them.
Thanks for your counsel. I ended up going to the recital, but it turned out to be all sound and fury in my head signifying nothing.
I arrived an hour before WW said the recital would end. In fact, it ended just as I arrived. I saw WW alone from a distance but nobody else. Her enabling friends weren't there. The OM wasn't there. DD2.5 wasn't there. And worst of all, I didn't see DD4 on stage. After the recital ended, I got in my car and drove home alone without turning on the music.
Would sending a message to WW that I attended the recital but didn't see DD4 help my cause in court?
Oh also, should my lawyer be present for the mediation? Please answer this question, as I may need to shell out MUCH money!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
WW sent a message of complaints to me. Why weren't you at WW4's dance recital? Why didn't you open to my father's day gift to you in front of our girls? Why do you take the girls to the babysitters and look for a job instead of keeping them with you? (She added that all of this is her fault ultimately. She married me. But she will rectify this mistake in just a few months).
I am inclined to respond in a calm and deliberate manner to her claims, all of which are false. Would doing so be a mistake?
Also, the OM has been around our kids. My girls tell me of his presence regularly. Should I send WW a warning for the OM not to be around them?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Thanks, MIM. What is the bait in this case? Showing my hand or getting angry with her?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Do not respond to her. But keep notes of your responses to her allegations for future reference.
You should not be concerned with her feelings. Having said that, receiving no response whatsoever drives most people crazy. Which is not a bad thing here.
You�re living rent free in her head. DO NOT RESPOND!
None of her allegations are anything to be concerned about in a custody fight.
If anything, get your lawyer to file a motion requesting that the paramour not be permitted to be around your kids.
Will it be granted? Probably not. But request it anyways and see if you can have it delivered to OM in addition to WW.
Can you do alienation of affection? What about a lawsuit based on mental cruelty? Perhaps something relating to interference in a legal contract? (Your marriage)
But don�t respond to her emails.
The criteria I was given was this: Unless there is blood on the ground or someone is about to die, do not communicate and only do so via email.
You didn�t open your father�s day gift in front of the girls? Really? This matters because��
IT DOESN�T!
No court will fault you for getting a sitter while you look for work. They might even commend you for it. This is the kind of petty stuff that courts hate. It�s stupid and petty and shows how little of the reality of divorce your WW understands. They don�t get the consequences and are shocked to discover that it isn�t rainbows and roses with kids frolicking in fields with bunnies running about while you sit on the side and smile at her for how happy she is with her new man.
First time on here in a week or so, but well I agree with others. Silent to your WW like in the movie 'Run Silent, Run Deep', unless you don't care if you play into her hands.
Biggest concern - om at all around your kids and your ww allowing that. My God, has this country changed so much that that would not be a legitimate issue? I would look into that hard MJ.
Other than that, what are you doing to help you in this?. New job, exercise, gettign out with friends, and etc.
Take care MJ but I am both concerned and praying for ya.
Good to hear from you. Funny you should mention the OM.
My WW is going with our kids this weekend to North Carolina -- the home state of the OM. She says her brother, who is in the Air Force, got a new assignment. It is true that North Carolina has an AFB (Seymour Johnson) and that DD4 mentioned she is seeing her uncle. It is also true that in a September 2008 email to the OM, she mentioned that she wanted to take our daughter to a beach house with the OM.
What to do? I plan to send WW an email asking for her contact info in NC and my brother-in-law's address and phone number. If she won't disclose this information, I don't need to drop the kids off at the babysitter's on Saturday. We have a mediation settlement in a few weeks, so withholding the kids may make me look bad.
I'm hanging in there. I got a good, new schedule. I go to morning Mass; workout (run or do sit ups and push ups); work on a book project; look for a job via networking; and freelance. (Three real job possibilities have opened up, so that's reassuring).
By 6 p.m., I'm done for the day. I eat dinner, call a friend or family member, read, and go to sleep. On night each weekend, I hang out with a friend. I also have two priests my age with whom I confide. This weekend I plan to run an 8k, my first since high school.
How are you? How's your wife?
I've been looking for a good schedule for pushups. Do you know of one?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
I wrote an email to WW warning her not to exposed the OM to our kids. The text is below:
Quote
DD4 said you are taking our girls to x this weekend. Please give me contact information for my BIL, so that I can reach you in an emergency.
I also want assurance from you that our daughters will not be exposed to your adultery partner. His kids are in the state; he used to live in the state; in a September or October 2008 email to him, you wrote that you wanted to take DD4 to a beach house and see him. I do not want this man exposed to DD4 and DD2.5, separately or together.
If the OM wants to contact me, he can do so at xxx
Hi MJ, Well on the upbeat scale I am happy to hear you starting a conditioning program. On the pushups - lots of vidios on how to do. For me just body straight and on toes and arms and then do it. On the downbeat scale just a lot of issures here for me to deal with, so I have not been able to be active here much. I will tell you one thing tho, I did talk with both my wife and my son this afternoon, expect a call from our daughter this evening, and that was good. My son, who is in his 20s, hadn't called me for a few days before this and I was truely worried. He did call tho and found out, from what he said that he had an infection maybe due to an insect bite a week ago and had to be treated. He seems okay. It never ends, but I am so thankful that he is okay.
I just wanted to relate this to you because it really affected me. I rode my bike to a few stores last Saturday and it was hot here. Heat index. Never have really worried about it before but on way to the last store on my bike I got dizzy and had to dismount to recover. When I got back home I felt a litle better but weak but had a few more dizzy spells right in my living room here. It was a first saturday and I wanted to fullfill that and went to evening mass and confession and felt a bad dizzy spell just sitting for the readings. I've since chalked it up to the heat and me outside but I wasn't sure then, but have not felt like that since last Saturday. This may sound extremely stupid because I did not choose to get medical attention, but I feel the Immacculate Mother protected me at that very time because I did not feel like myself or at all in control of myself. I feel much better now, but it isn't due to anything I did. That type of feeling when you fear that somthing serious is happening beyond your control and that you may die was not scary to me but it was overwhelming. I feel now today that it was probably the effect of the heat but I honestly have to say that I wanted to get their to church on this first saturday to try to console Mary, and no altho I was worried about a possible affect on my wife and our son and daughter I just went ahead. I have not even told my wife or our kids to this point what happend and I honestly feel I do not need to.
I got my first mediation session tomorrow. Is there anything at all to look forward to?
Per the advice of helpthelostdads, I read Jeffery Leving's "Father's Rights." Leving advises what is essentially a Plan A: Be conciliatory; look at things from her perspective; listen, listen, listen; acknowledge the validity of her feelings; apologize when necessary; and explain that my plans are in the best interests of our kids and her.
I agree with Leving's advice. But he fails to mention an important point, or one in my case: I don't want the OM around my kids at all. Having my WW deny her A is not acceptable, or isn't if she insists I get less than a 50-50 deal.
... Please tell me that this is not happening and that a few words of love and kindness to my WW will make this whole nightmare disappear.
P.S. DD4 told WW that the OM was "selfish." She told me that the OM shouldn't be around WW and that he's "not our daddy." A hope in the unseen perhaps.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
One painful part to this whole ordeal is that I still have love in my heart for WW. I think of being with other women and none compare to being with WW and our kids. The thought of us reconciling and enjoying a better marriage is a glorious one for me. This doesn't mean that I couldn't live or prosper without her; I could. But I just can't get over how fast everything went wrong. Just tonight I found this email from her to me, which was six months after her EA and six months before she moved out:
Quote
Hi [our affectionate nickname to each other],
It sounds like you had a really good day! I'm happy to hear DD4 had so much fun with her best friend. Did you get my email earlier this week about DD4's best friend's birthday?
This day has been so hectic. It's been go, go, go. I haven't even had a chance to pump yet. But it's been good. My boss has been very good to me. Showing a lot of confidence. And going out of his way to tell me how good things look. This is the first chance I've had to break really, tho. And we still have a few pages to build.
My boss bought a few cases of beer for the office, tho, and is going to toast all of us for our hard work, once more of the work is done. I'm really happy this week is almost over. I'll bring home [a sample of my work]. It looks good.
See you soon, love,
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Your heart isn't ready. Your brain isn't ready. You could ruin a great thing with a good woman.
Be wary of any that stick by you right now. They're attracted to drama.
Those that don't show that they're mentally healthy.
I also completely understand how you feel. Sadly, you have no power over when or if she brings OM over. You can't demand it and the court can't really stop it, especially someplace where adultery isn't a factor.
Stick to the big picture. You get primary of the kids. She can have visitation.
50/50 is the minimum.
Be above the fray. Be calm. Try to mentally separate yourself from her and pretend she's a business person you're negotiating a contract with.
Remember that if something is proposed that you don't like you don't have to freak out about it.
Simply turn down things politely that you don't like or agree with.
If they offer you crap, then you're better off taking your chances with the judge.
If you get 50/50 offered, take it. Then go to a super dark Plan B as best you can with kids involved.
The less you involve yourself with OM and your WW, the sooner it will die it's own death, unless you have failed to expose it. If that's the case, then you've enabled it.
But if you've done all you could to kill the affair, then you can do no more and need to proceed with protecting yourself and your relationship with the kids.
Get a deal where you have them 2 weekdays and then you alternate weekends. Split the summer 50/50 as well where they are with you for a full half and with her for a full half, with perhaps some weekend time thrown in there during the "other's" time. You'll want to have the ability to take them on long vacations.
Or make sure you negotiate for the long vacation times.
But treat it very matter of fact and with little emotion. You're acting for the mediators, who you want to be impressed with your demeanor, politeness, and candor.
Dress in business casual attire. Full suit for court, regarless of what the appearance is for.
Thanks again for your detailed post. I appreciate all of your advice and concern about my sitch.
For the record, I am Michael Jan. My former password doesn't work. Agghh.
No, I'm not dating; not at all. I don't ask women out; I don't go to bars; I don't go online and solicit relationships.
The email before yours was from my WW. This was the old her, or think it was. It makes me sad and yet hopeful.
I've done all I can to kill her A through exposure. Now I just need to go for 50-50 at a minimum.
FWIW, I prefer this schedule with the kids: Wednesday night till Saturday night. I want to see my kids every weekend. But I get your point about the summers. Thanks again!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
I�m not a fan of an arrangement where you have to see the ex spouse regularly in order to exchange the kids. It is much better to simply pick them up from school or daycare on your days and she does the same on hers. This is easier on you and it is easier on the kids.
You�ll also be trying to move on with your life eventually and it would be good to have full free weekends.
I get what you�re saying about the kids. You�ll eventually adjust to �the new normal� and look forward to both your free weekends and your kid weekends.
Part of your healing will involve a time when you can�t stand the sight of your ex and don�t wish to interact with her in any way. That�s why picking them up at school is the best.
I'm warming again to your schedule: seeing the kids for two days one week, seeing them for five days the next week.
I saw my WW today for two hours. I've been in a blue mood since. Her transformation -- it's really a transmogrification -- makes me sad. She struck me as a shallow, vain, quick tempered, forgetful phony. She has an iPad, a stylish hair cut, wears heels, and is a cold person. She's the post-modern woman. I can't believe it. She used to be the opposite of those things. It's weird, but I love and cherish the old her even more. She was a pretty, down to earth, all-American, playful, warm woman. Seeing her like this day after day would be painful.
In short, I feel like TryingEverything about his wife -- alternately disgusted with my WW (or in his case, XWW) and enchanted by my old wife.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Except for the fact that WW was present, the mediation went well. I heeded the advice dispensed by you and Jeffery Leving: Don't interrupt; don't get angry; don't be argumentative; be gracious; be charming; be deferential.
I let WW talk first. I didn't argue over petty stuff, such as the times she took away our kids. I made my case for why I should get a 50-50 custody arrangement: WW can exercise and pursue her career while I take care of our daughters; and our daughters can receive faith formation, go the park and pool, and attend practices.
I don't know what WW is expecting from me. She shot me a look of incredulity when I said that I am interested in getting primary legal custody of our daughters. But I got the sense she's open to a 50-50 arrangement. I don't know. Our next mediation session is in a couple of weeks.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
You could request joint legal custody but that you get the final say in case of a disagreement.
This was granted by the judge in my case. She gets the final say in school and discipline issues. I get the final say in religious ones. We have equal say in medical issues.
You have to make your case for those.
The fact that I wasn't from here and was putting my whole life together and had a limited amount of friends here was a factor in my case which worked against me. I only lived here for about 2 years when we went to court.
Things are much different now and I think I'd likely come out on top of most of those things, but it's not worth the expense.
Things are settled down now.
It will really help if you live close enough that taking the kids to school won't be an issue for you or if you can show you have quick access to the kids' daycare.
I saw my WW today for two hours. I've been in a blue mood since. Her transformation -- it's really a transmogrification -- makes me sad. She struck me as a shallow, vain, quick tempered, forgetful phony. She has an iPad, a stylish hair cut, wears heels, and is a cold person. She's the post-modern woman. I can't believe it. She used to be the opposite of those things. It's weird, but I love and cherish the old her even more. She was a pretty, down to earth, all-American, playful, warm woman. Seeing her like this day after day would be painful.
I went through the same thing. It actually helped me in the long-term because she had hardened her heart to the point where she transformed into a different person in every way. Karma sucks though, and I guarantee you will watch or hear of her getting hit by that ol' karma bus. It might be sooner; it might be later. But it always arrives. Because in order to change her life out of selfish indulgence mode, she has to accept responsibility for what she did in her heart. And that is incredibly difficult for some people to do. The alternative is creating a new, prideful, person. That's the route my WXW took, and pregnancy, bankruptcy, and loss of friends and family are just some of her consequences *I* know about.
Thank you, Arpeggi. I appreciate your support and thoughts. Just this morning, I thought of my troubles and recalled your last two lines.
Funny you should mention Karma. I think a lot about we Catholics used to call, and still do to an extent, "the natural law": what goes up must come down; if you wanna play, you gotta pay. My WW has experienced some bad effects of karma or the natural law. Her apartment was robbed. She's gotten a bunch of speeding tickets. That's not as bad as your XW, though.
Then there is the real reckoning: the day the OM dumps her. When will it happen? That's the question I can't answer. I say after three years, as does Dr. H. But I don't know.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
I had another mediation session today with WW. The good news is that we worked out our minor difference, our kids' schedule during the holidays. The bad news is that WW mostly was calm and collected. She didn't really seem in the fog. She didn't raise her voice, get upset, or interrupt. She struck me as perfectly happy that she was breaking up our family. Does she realize what she's doing? Is she a woman who's met her "soulmate" and is moving forward with her life while I cling to the false hope of saving our family?
Don't get me wrong; I'm giving our family another 14 months at least, the time at which Plan B will have been two years. But her conduct was deflating.
Our next mediation session is in two weeks. We'll discuss custody of the kids' regular schedule. The reality bus might hit her then or during our custody hearing in September.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
MichaelJan - Be careful here. WW and I settled all of this relatively calmly. The reality didn't hit when it was negotiated and it hasn't hit since she moved out mid June. Now, the complicating factor is that DS has been with family across the country for a month. So we haven't 'tested' the new agreement. However, so far, none of this appears to have had an impact on WW. She has her house, the OM and her life. I'm left to pick up the pieces of mine - slowly but surely. My suggestion to you - start building your own life as hard as that is and as harsh as that sounds. It's easier said than done - my heart is heavy too and I wish WW would return - but I can't control her. Hang in there MJ!
Stretch, LOL - I'm still here and in plan B now. WW is still wayward and now living in 'her house' and I believe that she's still seeing OM. There's no chink in her armor, so I'm trying to separate from her emotionally. Sucks, but there's nothing left to do.
Thanks for your insight. I like your approach and sympathize with your sitch. You are doing the right thing by your son and WW. It's just a matter of time before each one realizes this.
What's the name of your thread? I looked for but couldn't find it.
I agree that building a new life is key, as Dr. H. recommends. I am a changed man. I am more sensitive to others, especially to women. I listen more actively. I exercise a lot more, as I run six times a week and do pushups regularly. I pray and go to church more. And I look for a job more strategically and pay more attention to my finances. I'm more disciplined and caring. It's just that the big things haven't changed. I'm still out of work and still separated from my wife and kids!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
WW filled out an interrogatory and her lawyer sent it to me. Now my lawyer wants me to go over it with him. One problem: he's asking for his retainer fee, of $2,500.
I prefer to fill the form out on my own and keep the money. Here's why: I know how the custody game is played; I might settle with WW in mediation; and I don't want to ask family members for the money. What do the vets think about my plan?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
You probably are right. I have a lot to lose. Seeing my kids every other weekend would be a disaster for our family. My WW's sense of entitlement would only increase; and the relationship between my daughters and I would deteriorate.
No, I don't know as much as a lawyer.
I've been out of work since February.
Can I get my lawyer for WW to pay my legal costs? I will look into the question.
Thanks for the insight.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Pay the retainer. $2500 is nothing and you�re going to end up paying a lot more to fight for custody. Do not assume anything in a custody fight.
The interrogatories allow you to air out your side of things and allow you to tackle any allegations she may try to make. You can file your own set of interrogatories.
I can tell you that my ex objected to answering certain questions on the ground of �relevance� even though the questions were indeed relevant.
You can also force her to answer questions on your end, which she may not like answering, but be prepared for �Objection. Relevance� to be an standard answer for things she doesn�t wish to address.
$2500 is nothing for a retainer. You�re going to spend much more than that.
Per TheRoad's suggestion, I called my lawyer today to ask if my WW could pay my retainer. My legal service plan had expired, I said, but it will pay you for your services. He hit the floor. "What do you mean your plan is terminated?! You know you're supposed to pay!" he screamed. "I think you're paying games with me!" Flustered, I reassured him that I was not paying games. My understanding, I told him, is that my legal service plan will pay him.
Then I talked with a representative for the plan. She assured that it would pay for my first 15 hours of representation and would give me a discount of the rest. In other words, my lawyer will get paid. I told this to him. He wasn't convinced. He threatened to withdraw representation. He said he'll talk with a representative from the legal plan and respond to me.
What the hell? I thought my lawyer was on my side. He acts like I'm going to steal his money. I talked with a friend about my imbroglio today, and I came up with a conclusion. Unless the person is your friend, assume they are looking out for their own bottom line. Man oh man.
Here's my question for vets: If my lawyer withdraws representation, am I in a worse position than before?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
I like your suggestion that my WW pay for my legal costs. How might I get her to do that? Any idea?
Thanks!
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
My third mediation session is tomorrow. The subject will be custody. I will make two requirements: I get more time with the kids on Saturdays and the OM cannot be around our daughters. In exchange, I can give OW a couple more days on the holidays. While she probably will reject my offer, she fears her lawyer's expenses. Any thoughts as to what WW would agree?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
Yes. Get rid of the Saturday time request and simply alternate weekends. Don�t put your kids through exchanges. They suck and are easier to handle through the school system or the daycare.
I agree: Exchanging the kids is painful. But them missing Mass on Saturday evenings or Sundays is worse. That's why I don't want to alternate weekends. Sorry. I like the idea. It's just that my kids need to be raised in the faith everyone in our families was raised in.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Still hopeful
I agree with you. If that is the case, then request that you be able to pick them up for mass on her weekends and bring them back when it ends.
Also, don�t underestimate the influence you have in this regard. I made it important in my house and the kids are all being raised Catholic despite the fact that I don�t have primary custody.
Or, alternatively, request 3 out of 4 weekends a month or 4 out of 5, like I have, while getting the entire summer where you alternate weekends with her.
We had our third mediation session this morning. We agreed tentatively to keep our schedule: I get the kids Thursday till Saturday, with the Saturday drop-off time alternating between 2 p.m. on one Saturday and 7 p.m. the next Saturday. We agreed to joint legal custody, but she gets the kids 4.5 days of the week while I get them 2.5 days.
I don't like the schedule. I want more time with our girls. But how likely is a judge in northern Virginia to give me more time, let alone another day of the week? My guess: the odds are not 75-25 in my favor. But I don't know. If any vets know about courts in northern Virginia, give me a holler. I will raise the funds for my legal expenses from friends and family members if I have a good shot of getting a 50-50 deal.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
Thanks for your input. There are many ways to skin a cat. OW agreed to revisit a custody schedule after our girls make their First Communion. That's something.
I offered to WW getting the kids till 7 p.m. on Saturdays three of the four weeks a month in exchange for her getting more holiday time. She didn't budge. According to her attorney, she is unlikely to get less than our current schedule. (My attorney said that every other weekend was the minimum amount I would get).
I don't know what to believe. I outlined eight people to discuss my odds of a court giving me more time with our girls. I have two weeks till the next mediation.
... Something tells me the vets may not like my agreement. Fight for 50-50! WS's hate being dragged into court! I share those sentiments.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
I may change my mind. I may take my case to court. Instead of agreeing to continue the current arrangement, I may fight it. I talked with my family tonight, and they think WW is getting away with too much. If I could find a new lawyer to take my case and agree to certain terms, I am very likely to take it to court.
Going to court strikes me as the path many MB commenters advise I take. After WW filed for legal separation, Tom2010 wrote
Quote
as much as I know how you feel about her, please stop calling this idiot (your WW) by the name 'Honey'. That seems degrading to you as well as irritating to the good people who are advising you MJ. I realize she was once your W, but she no longer is. She is now a middle linebacker on the opposing team who is out to gore your QB, and your job as an offensive lineman is to flatten her legally, socially, and emotionally at this time.
You are one of the few men on here who have fought - most just come here, look, discuss, and scurry away, as I am sure you have seen. You seem to grasp the ideas and strategy, but your reaction time is slow, that is all.
After I wrote that I would not file for D, schoolbus wrote
Quote
IT WILL MAKE HER UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE A BACKBONE, AND THAT YOU REALLY ARE DONE MESSING AROUND WITH HER.
The other benefits are all good and fine, but you have been a dishrag for too long. Sorry if that hurts, but it is the truth.
If you file, she will stop seeing you as weak.
LostHusband chimed in with this advice:
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MJ, as of now, you are officially on defense in the courtroom. Very few football games are won solely by the defense, typically, you want to get your offense on the field as soon as possible and keep it there. If you have a chance to counter this by filing for divorce on the grounds of adultry, I'd dang sure do that and get your defense off the field.
I know you're wanting to hold out hope but you also have to be prepared for what could come. Maybe the thought of a long drawn out messy divorce is the wake up call she needs. If nothing else, doing this NOW would put you in the best possible position for negotiations when it comes to terms of the divorce. And despite what you see on TV, the majority of stuff ends up being negotiated in a divorce. So I guess you have to ask yourself, do you want to be on offense or defense? Personally, I think being on offense gives you the most power to end up with a settlement that is benificial to you when it comes to the kiddo's. If you're not wanting maximum time with them then play defense......
Sapphire Returns agreed with the vets:
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Keep fighting, make this divorce h*ll for her, do not settle for anything less what you want! She thinks she's gunna get everything? HA let her think again
I thought of the times during separation when my girls and I won. I stayed firm and strong. WW backed down, after much screaming and braying.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
I would fight for 50/50 at the minimum if I was you and keep OM away from the your kids 100% of the time. Many judges won't do this so you can fall back to no over night guests when WW has your kids.
Thanks for your encouragement. I plan to fight for 50/50 for many reasons, not the least of which is religious.
Once my daughters receive their First Communion, they are obligated to go to Mass on Saturday night or Sunday. If I agree to the mediated settlement, I receive no guarantee that WW will let me take them to Mass. WW agrees only to revisit the agreement in a few years. This language isn't strong enough. Waywards make empty promises, right?
On a related note, I could raise money from friends and family members by making my court battle a religious issue.
I share your determination to keep the OM away from my kids. What practical steps do you advise?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
Virginia is a fault state where adultery is very much taken into account.
Look, if it�s a money thing then you can represent yourself. Her attorney will tell her all kinds of things and get her to hold firm on stuff, but the reality is that they need you to agree in order for mediation to work.
Your arrangement sucks. You want to raise the kids Catholic, so fight for that. Ask for what I suggested, which is Friday through Monday morning 3 weekends a month (4 out of 5 on months with 5 weekends) and then every other weekend in the summer with you having the kids all summer long.
It is reasonable if you don�t live really close.
Now, if you�re not far from her and it is easy for you to drive to VA and the kid�s school, then settle for no less than 50/50.
She has to argue that she should get primary. Remember that VA is a fault state and use that to your advantage!
Fight! You�re surrendering too much!
And don�t buy this �will revisit visitation after x amount of time�. That�s advice from her attorney. Once an order is signed then the burden is on you to prove that changing it is in the best interests of the children. I spent more fighting later than if I had just fought it up front. Why? Because there is no way she is going to willingly give up the fat check she�ll get in CS from you by surrendering more nights to you.
You�re being bamboozled and she�s playing the mom card very well.
Fight for 50/50 or the arrangement I suggested. I have that arrangement and it is fine for now. But I would have gotten 50/50 if I lived closer. The judge would have given it to me. I�m convinced I would get it today because my circumstances are very different than they were 3 years ago when I fought. I was just putting my life back together.
If you have a house, access to their school, and family nearby, then you have all the elements to get primary or at least 50/50. She wants you to agree to what she is suggesting because the CS will be HUGE under that arrangement. When it comes to calculating it, she will get 5 overnights to your two and will be considered as having physical custody. My CS was $3000 a month under what she is suggesting. It was killing me financially.
If fought for and got shared physical custody which cut my CS to $1900 a month, which is a sum I can live with (it includes costs of daycare in the formula).
You�re being setup. She�s playing the sly little game very well and you�re wavering and thinking about settling for scraps.
So she cheats, gets a new man, and gets you to pay for it all. Outstanding!
You have the ability to use adultery in VA. USE IT!
Get a second job for now if you need to, but get a lawyer! If you can�t, then fight it yourself in court! I know a man who got primary custody of his son by representing himself.
Those that fight, win. Those that don�t, get reamed through CS.
Yes - and in Virginia if the child care costs continue to rise she can come back and continuously get more from you. Material change in circumstances.
I get a huge amount from my WH in Virginia. I have four kids and it is a huge chunk from his salary. He doesn't have much to live off of and his OW is very expensive.
He is actually threatening for custody at the moment.
Stick to your guns. This state is awesome for adultery. Fight like there is no tomorrow.
CS will bring my WH home. There isn't a woman out there that wants to support a man with four kids that will always hate her because she isn't their mom.
CS may bring your WW home if you play your cards correct. Hit it where it hurts her the most. Trying to live in NOVA is tough stuff. Partying on a Friday night is what $100-$200 minimum. It is very expensive to live and make it with children if you don't have the funds.
Fight for everything - you have nothing to lose!!!
Thanks for the encouragement. I talked with a possible new attorney today. While she has not agreed yet to take my case, she encouraged me to get a 50-50 split. She also agreed that WW would likely realize after the D that the OM is a scum bag and drop him.
Naturally, I thought of analogies to my situation: A man fighting the good fight; battling enemies; holding on for dear life, getting dirt and rocks in his face; and hoping to climb back into the saddle and restore order. Then, I thought of the famous truck chase scene from "Raiders of the Lost Ark." The best part begins at the 3 minute, 30 second mark: What do you think?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
I agree with you about the tactic and strategy. Hire the attorney and fight to show that I am a good father.
This attorney has not yet agreed to take my case. I sent her my interrogatory last night and gave her a check for our consultation the other day. Can you think of another way or two to entice her?
As a side note, I think rationalization rather than hope encourages a BS to compromise and be nice. My WS will return eventually, the BS thinks, therefore I will give in to his or demands. This is folly. Rationalization, one might say, is the fool's gold of thought.
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
I'd give it a few more days and then see. These cases consume us, the client, while the lawyers juggle a few others at a time. I learned to simply let things be with my lawyer and that she'd respond when she had the chance.
I talked with DD4 last night. According to her, last weekend the OM came over to see WW and our daughters. WW kissed the OM on the cheek as he left.
I'm ticked. This is getting old. What's the best strategy to protest my WW's continual exposure of the OM to our girls? Sending emails to their work accounts? To their FB accounts or personal emails?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
You live in a state that takes adultery into account. Ask the lawyer, but file a motion that the paramour is not to be around your children.
If it can�t be done, then this is one of those things that you�ll have to suck up. It stinks. I know. Believe me, I know. I was desperate about the fact that my wxw moved her boyfriend in with her and her him over when the kids were around, but there was nothing I could do about it.
Also - you can try the RO route. If your daughters are showing emotional distress around him, then you RO his butt based on the intentional infliction of emotional distress to the kids.
VA has great laws with the paramour, so use them. This is a great state to use all that against WW.
A brief update: Now WW wants to discuss actual terms. She complains and frets about the cost of going to trial. The expense of a trial, she writes, estimating the cost at $20k for each of us, might sink our family's bank account and ours. I'm sticking to my guns about 50-50 physical custody.
Is she worried about the costs of going to a trial and not getting a settlement favorable to her?
----------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
As for the wording, I like that it's tough. Definitely I need to play hardball with WW. But my family can't give me more money, or not a lot. This weakens my hand. Of course, I will leave my WW with the opposite impression. I meet with my lawyer Friday, and will get her thoughts about the cost of going to trial, etc.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
It's expensive, I aint going to lie. But I don't regret the debt I'm in because of it because I have shared physical custody of my kids and I wouldn't have it any other way.
You can always represent yourself, if necessary. See if you can negotiate the hourly rate with your lawyer and if you can ask her to lower it a little. I asked and got it lowered by $25 less per hour.
Wow it has been awhile since I have been on here or seen any of your posts.
Well, what can you do? 1) buy and wear a striped poncho, 2) get a western-style hat with a low brim, 3) buy a bottle of whiskey, 4) buy a horse, 5) practice riding to her home on your horse, 6) practice having glinty eyes, 7) get a six gun or better two of them along with holsters, (the Hopolaong Cassidy or Lone Ranger types highly recommended) 8) tie your horse to her front gate, stride into her home, take out the whiskey bottle and pour a couple of drinks, 9) glint at her as you offer her a drink and say "i'm only going 50-50 babe, any objections?", 10) down your drink in one gulp, ask if he's here while she sees you touch your gun, 10) then, take your bottle of whiskey and simply walk out, 11) let her see you spit on her sidewalk before your climb on your horse to ride away, 12) then be confident that you have her wondering!
Factious yes, but isn't it what we would all love to do at certain times. Better than MB...*s*
MJ my comment is facetious but I dont know what else to say except that I will dedicate a decade of Mary's rosary for you. All I can do.
In reality Mary would not approve of me donning a poncho and guns to settle a similar situation..*s* But, she would approve of me calming down and turning to her for help. Most men, and perhaps women, wouldn't want to even admit that she is real and does exist. But, the best advice or gift I could give to you would be to take a chance and pray to her. It doesn't maean she would want us to not think smart or to exercise our abilities as human. It simply means she is a Mother who longs to help each and every one of us.
A decade for you MJ, but good luck and please start being more aggressive.
I just hope that you aren't upset with my facetious post to you the other day. I haven't been thru this at all, but it just seems that your W is trying to extort you, or in the very least cause you to back down. Any court trial is expensive. However, if she is expressing concern about the cost then she is worried about going full bore and financing a trial herself just to gain more favorable terms.
Sorry I failed to respond to your posts. I didn't take offense at your messages at all. In fact, I chuckled at your cowboy post, which was clever. And I appreciate you saying a decade of the Rosary on my behalf. You are most kind. As for Mary, I pray to her, and to Monica for changing my WW. (I pray to St. Joseph to make me a holier man, but need to pray more).
I called Dr. H's show last week to ask if I could talk with WW about custody. My lawyer wants me to look more reasonable and level headed to the judge, so she encourages me to talk with WW. Dr. H said talking with WW was fine on the following conditions: I stay pleasant with WW, realize that WW will be negative and irrational, and my LB for WW will lose units. He was right. In WW didn't budge; I lost love units for her; and she was irrational. Oh well. Our lawyers provided their witness lists today. But don't worry. I'm not budging from my terms.
Sorry too for not keeping up with your threads. I read about your latest heartsickness over your beloved Char. I will put you and her in my intercessory prayers tonight.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
My attorney asked if I could propose another custody-and-visitation schedule. WW rejected my standing offers:
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a) Thursday to Saturday night, a schedule which allows me to take the girls to church
b)split the first four days of the work week (M-Tues with her; W-Th with me) and alternate weekends.
According to WW, both schedules would interrupt the girls' school schedules once they start school. To me, the most important thing is taking my girls to church each weekend.
Can anyone devise another proposal?
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
Thanks for your question. We live in different school districts, about half an hour away with traffic.
---------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
Where they are not in school yet - I would go every other week with her Sunday - Saturday and leave it at that.
You are not going to get every Saturday with your Girls. The weeks you have the girls you can take them to church more often or have more bible study.
Split 50/50 with her this way. This will give you more leverage down the road if you need to seek full custody.
You need to get yourself a job ASAP. If that is McDonalds or Home Depot or Macys -- just get a job. I cannot see your chances being increased for sole custody down the road without a job.
Yes, the girls can go to your school district. But a 30 minute drive isn't crazy. Get before and after care at the school and it's a non issue.
I live about 20 minutes from my kids school and it sucks for me in terms of driving to work afterwards, but it would work out in a 50/50 if I got a job that wasn't so far away.
Get a job near their school and it then simply becomes an issue of you dropping them off on your way to work and picking them up after.
Take away their excuses. Not living in the same district isn't a killer if the drive to their school isn't bad.
Your WW will reject all arrangements that minimize her CS. So tell her that those are your offers and you will not change them. If she doesn't like it, then the judge can decide. Virginia should be fair, especially with adultery in the equation.
I would skip the crazy schedule also. As a mom - I want stability only.
That is why I say every other week. This will drastically reduce CS and it may force her into CS for you.
You tell that lawyer of yours that will not settle for less than 50/50. Virginia is awesome for kids, especially with adultery. Do not let WW dictate this at all-stay in the driver's seat.
Even if you lawyer is half-azzed - insist you will not back down with 50/50.
Thanks for your comments. I'm attempting to stick to my guns. It's not easy, but I'm trying.
Good news on the job front: I have an interview Wednesday. The hiring manager contacted me directly. The job doesn't pay much, but it's a few miles away and would lead to higher-paying jobs.
Now some less than great news. My lawyer thinks I should offer one weekend package a month to WW: She gets them from Friday night to Monday morning. The next weekend, I get the package. The other two weeks, I get Thursday to Saturday evening with the kids.
What do you think? Here's what I like: I take the kids to church three weekends a month. Here's what I don't like: one week a month, I see the kids only on Thursday night.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
We cannot make the decision for you. You have to do what is best for your daughters.
My only suggestion being a mom of very small children is they need stability. Make their lives stable by allowing them to know what is coming. They need a sense of minimal change. Constant change does throw them off, and it is better for them to have a routine.
That�s my current arrangement. I don�t get Thursday nights. Mine start on Fridays. But I get the kids almost every weekend and take them to church regularly. My DD just had her first communion.
The reality is that you want something that is consistent and predictable.
What I would ask, if this is going to be the way it is, is that you get all summer with the kids and go to an every other weekend schedule with her in the summer.
You do eventually adjust to the new normal and your �kid free� weekend is something you look forward to.
Like you, the only reason I don�t adjust the arrangement is because I value the church time for the kids.
WW and I worked out a compromise. Two weekends a month, I get our girls from Thursday to Saturday night; the next weekend, I get them from Thursday to Sunday night; the last weekend, I get them on Thursday night. The agreement strikes me as decent. I can take our girls to Mass three out of four weeks; I don't pay a ton in child support; I won't have to ferry them all over; and I get more time with them than present.
Thanks to everyone on this site for posting your comments. I appreciate and value your advice. While I was not a text book MB'er, I followed the rules and know that I did the best I could. At the lawyer's office this morning, WW showed up in the office to sign the papers. I had told my lawyer that WW was not to be there. I talked again with my lawyer and WW left the room.
Several vets deserve special recognition:
-- helpthelostdads was a wonder. He responded to my questions promptly and with insight. Without his help, I would have been a lot worse off. Thanks again, help.
-- Tom2010 was great too. He offered me big-picture advice and encouragement. For some reason, I will think of his comments at odd hours of the day and night; they just come to me. He's like Bob Dylan in that way.
-- schoolbus's analysis of the OM's letter to me was astounding. It contained so many sharp insights that, like Tom2010's comments, still stick in my mind.
-- Mark1952 was an inspiration. His comparison of an affair to a tornado is true, true, true.
I am forgetting many others. When I go back and read my thread, I plan to give you shout outs as well.
In the meantime, I am hanging on emotionally. Last night was rough. I kept thinking of our glorious family the 16 months between the birth of DD4 and WW's A. I woke up around 1 and didn't return to sleep till 4 or 5.
I should also say that I'm not giving up hope that our family can reconcile. At Dr. H's advice, I plan to give us another 12 months at least. No relationship with a new woman is worth jeopardizing my kids' welfare. And you know what, I still have love in my heart for WW.
While I was on the computer last night, I thought of this song I heard on the AMC series "Breaking Bad." It's called "Red Moon" by The Walkmen. The song haunted me for some reason, so I looked up the lyrics on the 'net. They represent exactly how I feel:
The red moon is rising behind you The ocean is pounding away I held up a light to the smoke but The redness blows it away
And the night is cold And the clouds go by Tomorrow morning I hope to be home By your side
The riptide is pulling me under I�m drifting, drifting away Tomorrow the sun will be brighter The water will rise and wash us away
But the stars are cold And the air is bright And I see you now You shine like the steel on my knife The darkness is wrapped all around me tonight
I miss you I miss you there�s no one else I do I do
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
I'm glad the two of you could work something out with the kids.
I think that waiting for at least a year before you even consider dating is a very good idea. The mind and the heart need rest after this kind of thing. And in your heart you still have a lot of love for your WW. Even if you two were not to reconcile and you were in a position to accept that, it would not be fair to anyone you met to try to date someone who was still in love with someone else.
Regardless of the future with your WW, you have healing to do. Your work on yourself has only begun. You have your kids to focus on, and to establish your new job (which I am hoping comes through for you!!!!). A year will fly by, and I wonder where you will be one year from now.
That will be interesting for you to find out. Success is the journey, not the destination. Godspeed on your journey, MJ.
Good to reach an agreement. If it works for you and your kids, then great.
I think you'll change it eventually, but it's probably good enough for now.
The worst of the drama is likely over, but don't be surprised if she still acts entitled and demanding.
Remember that her days are her days. You'll have to abide to the letter of the agreement for a period of time while you both detatch from each other emotionally.
She'll use the kids as an excuse to call you and argue. The criteria to keep in mind is "about to die or bleeding." If none of those are in the equation, then she needs to write whatever she wishes to say in an email.
Minimize your contact with her completely.
Finally, don't date for a minimum of six months. I advise a year. The best thing I did for myself in my healing was not date for many, many months. It did wonders for me.
Use that time to get in shape, read, contact old friends again, and recover financially and emotionally.
Thanks for your advice. I agree: dating again soon after the D is a bad idea.
In fact, I intend to give my wife another year or so; my daughters deserve the best from me. In sum, my sitch has not changed. I remain in Plan B!
As for my personal reform, I continue to make progress. I run five days a week, pray two or three times a day, and go to bed early. Now I just need to get a job, pay off my creditors, and get out of debt.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
I'm relearning the value of Plan B. Hard to do with little kids. But here's my plan: I will be all business around her and it will have to be parallel parenting where she has her world and I have mine.
I just recently learned, very naively, that being friendly and cordial would be good. "Friendly" may be a bit of a stretch, but there were some light moments where laughs were shared over stuff the kids were doing.
But my recent experiences have taught me that a wayward that never sees the error of her ways is an exercise in disappointment and anger.
I share this with you not to threadjack, but to share with you that Plan B, or at least the minimal contact is what is called for after a D. I'm almost 5 years into this and just had one heck of an experience where my WXW twists things out of proportion and does sneaky stuff. Expect nothing from your WW. You won't be disappointed that way.
Absolutely, staying in Plan B is best. The less I see or hear from my WW the better. Her deposits in my LB don't deplete as much.
After I have been in contact with her, I am more likely to look at dating sites or idealize some random woman as my true love. My reaction is strange but fades.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
Have any BS' felt more like they are stranded on an island than they are getting divorced?
I feel that way. There was a terrible shipwreck that occurred three years ago and while I was a captain of the ship, I was asleep when it capsized. Now I am stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean. If I can somehow survive on the island, I will return home.
I don't mean to use a hifalutin metaphor. I just don't feel divorced. My deepest and strongest desire is not to date another woman; it's to reunite with my wife and kids. The culture tells me to move on, but I want to move back.
The feeling is unlike any I've had. If you can relate, please post.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Divorce expected to be final in October Hope is fading, but I'm not giving up
Thanks for the advice. In my area, DivorceCare is for Protestants. I'll go back to the group for Catholics.
itistoughlove,
You're right. The OM is meeting needs, especially my WW's need for financial stability. I'm not meeting that need now. I'm trying, believe me, I'm trying. I just need to find a way to get 'er done.
BillCarolina,
Sorry to hear about your sitch. In my case, the ship started listing three years ago. It ran aground two years ago when WW moved out. So I'm not THAT far ahead of you.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Divorce expected to be final in October Hope is fading, but I'm not giving up
Thanks for the reminder about Divorcecare. I see on their site they will hold a meeting next week. I plan to attend and will write on this thread about the meeting.
In other news, my attorney says the D will be final on Friday. If you can, please pray for my family. Even after two years, I still can't believe this is happening.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Divorce expected to be final in October Hope is fading, but I'm not giving up
I am behind in my child support payments. I owe $750 to WW and will pay $250 in a few days, putting my outstanding balance at $500. That debt strikes me as reasonable, considering that I don't have a job and made my payments for two years, but I'm worried about WW's reaction.
She's told me that the debt is unacceptable. Upping the ante, she has not deducted the money from our joint account. Might she be up to something?
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Divorce expected to be final in October Hope is fading, but I'm not giving up
Probably wants you to look like you are owing when the divorce is finalized. If you can pay it, you should - because she will make a move to have all payments go through the court.
In a way, going through the court helps you, because you are protected from false claims of arrears. Other times, depending on where you live, it isn't so great if the court in your area is less than stellar at keeping their payment system updated and accurate. it's a crapshoot.
The CS order, I think, is official. We signed the settlement agreement last month. It contained a line about my monthly CS payments.
No, I have not submitted an adjustment for being jobless. Asking my lawyer or looking up the info online would be helpful, right?
(By the way, I plan to go to a DivorceCare group next Tuesday).
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
This woman seems to have a screw very loose somewhere.
MJ, on your end, make sure you get an adjustment based on being unemployed. That is a very big deal and you don�t want to fall back on CS and end up in jail.
Divorcecare is very helpful and I think you�ll really get a lot out of it. I�m Catholic and it is a protestant program, but there is nothing inconsistent with Catholic teaching and doctrine and the process of healing is the same.
The religious aspects of the program are a part of the overall program but aren�t an overbearing, bash you over the head, thing. There are some very practical things that you do in the program.
I agree. Getting an adjustment is a big deal. How do I get an adjustment? Do I petition the court?
As for DivorceCare, I left a message with the pastor last night. I like what I hear and read about the program.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 40 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 Informally separated D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 Hope is fading, but still there
A brief update: My D is final. The judge signed the papers last month, or at least I think he did.
The official proclamation changes little on my end. I have the same arrangement I did in September, which is a better one than before, as I see them more often That's the good part.
The bad part is my kids see the OM more often. He comes over once every couple of weeks. My WW has also taken them to his house for dinner. Worse, she took them to his neighborhood to go trick or treating. Yep, they were one big happy family.
My daughters' reaction to the OM is difficult to discern. On the one hand, they have told my friends that they don't mind being with the OM. On the other hand, they tell me the opposite. And as I am a good father to them, I think they much prefer me to the OM. They are healthy and happy for now.
I'm hanging in there. I went to Divorce Care for the last four sessions of the year, and will go to all of the sessions when the program starts up again in January. I liked and benefited from the program. It reinforced points Dr. H and many of you have made.
For the past month, I have been in a good way. I drew up a list of the five areas of my life: soul, heart, body, mind, and debts. If not for my debts, I would be rolling! Every day or nearly every day, I go to Mass, run or do pushups, write, talk with others about how I can meet their needs, and look for a job. Also, I have avoided bad habits and LB's. I even got a new job, albeit a temporary, low-paying one for the holidays.
I am behind in CS payments. My lawyer said I was very unlikely to convince a court to reduce them, as I was terminated from my last job. For now, my WW is understanding. My hope is that my seasonal job and unemployment checks will get me out of the red.
As a rule, I steer clear of dating sites, but avoiding them altogether is difficult. There seem to be a bunch of good fish in the sea. In my more reflective moments I realize that the best one out there was my wife from three years ago and our two kids.
Thanks again for following my thread. If I had to name one change in my life over the last two years, I would say it's the recognition that success and happiness in life are unusually dependent on meeting the needs not of yourself but those of others.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
MichaelJan, I'm sorry to hear that your situation did not turn out as you had hoped.
Can I ask one thing? Could you change your sig line? You say you were in Plan B beginning 11-10, but you were never really in Plan B. It will make it alarming for other new posters in your situation to read your outcome if we recommend Plan B after they've read your thread. They will assume you were really in Plan B.
Sure, I guess. My new sig line will say that I was and am in Plan B & D.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
I don't appreciate your harping on the fact that my execution of Plan B was insufficient. It strikes me as scrupulous. Dr. H himself said talking with the WW when we were seeking to hammer out a settlement was OK. And actually for a month or two, I did execute a full Plan B.
My family isn't broken up because of my failure to execute Plan B to your standards. It's broken up mainly because of my WW's infidelity and partly because of my inability to keep a job and assurance that I had her back every second of every moment.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
My point wasn't to harp on anything, MichaelJan. It was for the benefit of new posters who come here and read threads as a way of learning how to implement the different parts of Dr. H's concepts.
Fair enough, but please don't consider my handling of Plan B a failure. After all, I'm hanging on and fighting for my marriage and family. I haven't given up; I'm not giving up. Well for another year at least.
That's the whole point of Plan B, right? To protect the betrayed spouse from the toxicity of the affair? Consider me largely if not entirely toxic-free!
-------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
Get out your 2 x 4's or your advice. I got a woman's phone number Sunday night. She is smart, lively, statuesque, and 23 years old.
Calling her is the honorable thing to do. But what to say to her?
Here's my tentative strategy: While I can't date you now because I want to give my WW a chance to reconcile, I would like to call you next year (when my time limit for Plan B will have expired).
My mind and soul want me to say this. My heart doesn't. It wants to start dating her.
Any thoughts?
-------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
this would strike me as very creepy. cut your x loose. make her earn her way back. either call the girl with a sincere desire to date and have fun, with no serious ties, or don't. but you don't even know her yet. true confessions don't come for a long time and a lot of different women to date.
I'm not sure she's interested in me romantically. I'm guessing.
She asked me lots of questions, including about my age, and we seemed to hit it off.
-------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
I'm not sure she's interested in me romantically. I'm guessing.
She asked me lots of questions, including about my age, and we seemed to hit it off.
Under what circumstances did you get her phone number? Did you ask her for it? Did she appear to know that you were interested in her romantically when she gave it to you?
Get out your 2 x 4's or your advice. I got a woman's phone number Sunday night. She is smart, lively, statuesque, and 23 years old.
What are you going to do if she has parents? She could have a mother like me who would run your [censored] off for trifling with my kid. Good grief, cant you get a woman your own age?
I'm not sure she's interested in me romantically. I'm guessing.
She asked me lots of questions, including about my age, and we seemed to hit it off.
Under what circumstances did you get her phone number? Did you ask her for it? Did she appear to know that you were interested in her romantically when she gave it to you?
You have a daughter around that age, don't you? What would you do if she came home with some middle aged geezer?
Calling her is the honorable thing to do. But what to say to her?
Why is it the honorable thing to do? What were the circumstances where you got her number?
You're a married man who is old enough to be her father. This is a bad mix from the get-go. Edit: I apologize. You are divorced now. What you do as a single man is your choice. I am concerned about the age difference.
Hi MJ, it's good to see you post again here, but not under the circumstances of having to announce that your W pushed the D to finality. I am very sorry that your efforts didn't work out.
In addition to seeking support in Divorce Care, have you considered posting on the Divorded/Divorcing forum for additional support? Also am wondering if you have considered volunteering to fill in some of your spare time. Maybe you do this already. If you find somethng that really turns you on in terms of volunteer activity, it's not only very rewarding, but you can meet some very nice dedicated people and develop friendships along lines of mutural interest.
I have to say MJ that I do want to make a recommendation regarding dating at this point. You can certainly put this under the category of "it's easy for you to say", but I would hope that if I were in your specific situation that I would put every bit of energy I had into securing a job and getting a little further down the road from the date of the divorce. I know that I would not be emotioanlly ready for a new relationship right away. I cannot recall what your field is MJ, but I would even serisouly consider additional courses and/or training to increase my marketabliity and future income potential. I recently had breakfast with a good friend of mine who is close to my age (later 60s) and his job at one of the major corps here was eliminated a few months ago. He has a solid background in accounting and pension admn., but the careers that we had when we worked together for many years several years ago - pension, compensation, and human resources in general - have pretty much faded away. That's why I made a career change to tax accounting back in the late 90s. He's going to enroll in a certified state and local tax specialist program, and is trying to talk me into doing same. My last grad course in tax accounting was back in 98, and am not at all sure I have the gumption to get back in that grind again but I am considering. Sometimes it takes another person's example to urge me on. These are just some thoughts.
MJ, regarding your 'problem' regarding the young woman you met - I have to agree with Marital and the others here - not worth pursuing. Just me personally, the age difference would bother me, and also I wouldn't feel ready to pursue anything like it until I had my career and financial footing back. Again, this is probably an "easy thing for me to say" thing, but just wanted to relate these things to you.
Best of luck to you MJ and I hope that you are your daughters are able to have a great Christmas.
I would hope that if I were in your specific situation that I would put every bit of energy I had into securing a job and getting a little further down the road from the date of the divorce. I know that I would not be emotioanlly ready for a new relationship right away. I cannot recall what your field is MJ, but I would even serisouly consider additional courses and/or training to increase my marketabliity and future income potential. I recently had breakfast with a good friend of mine who is close to my age (later 60s) and his job at one of the major corps here was eliminated a few months ago. He has a solid background in accounting and pension admn., but the careers that we had when we worked together for many years several years ago - pension, compensation, and human resources in general - have pretty much faded away. That's why I made a career change to tax accounting back in the late 90s. He's going to enroll in a certified state and local tax specialist program, and is trying to talk me into doing same. My last grad course in tax accounting was back in 98, and am not at all sure I have the gumption to get back in that grind again but I am considering. Sometimes it takes another person's example to urge me on. These are just some thoughts.
MJ, regarding your 'problem' regarding the young woman you met - I have to agree with Marital and the others here - not worth pursuing. Just me personally, the age difference would bother me, and also I wouldn't feel ready to pursue anything like it until I had my career and financial footing back. Again, this is probably an "easy thing for me to say" thing, but just wanted to relate these things to you.
Great minds think alike! While I don't have a problem with our age difference, I am in no financial position to start dating, let alone a spiritual or emotional one. My position remains the same: Give WW till November 2010, two years after I started Plan B.
Thanks for reading my posts. It's good to hear from you all. When I met this young woman, I thought, man oh man, she's beautiful, why not go out with her? Then I reflect on the matter, talk with friends and the vets, and find that it's too early for me to go out with anyone.
Hope you are well, Tom. Thanks for reading my posts. I will pray tonight for you and yours.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
I would hope that if I were in your specific situation that I would put every bit of energy I had into securing a job and getting a little further down the road from the date of the divorce. I know that I would not be emotioanlly ready for a new relationship right away. I cannot recall what your field is MJ, but I would even serisouly consider additional courses and/or training to increase my marketabliity and future income potential. I recently had breakfast with a good friend of mine who is close to my age (later 60s) and his job at one of the major corps here was eliminated a few months ago. He has a solid background in accounting and pension admn., but the careers that we had when we worked together for many years several years ago - pension, compensation, and human resources in general - have pretty much faded away. That's why I made a career change to tax accounting back in the late 90s. He's going to enroll in a certified state and local tax specialist program, and is trying to talk me into doing same. My last grad course in tax accounting was back in 98, and am not at all sure I have the gumption to get back in that grind again but I am considering. Sometimes it takes another person's example to urge me on. These are just some thoughts.
MJ, regarding your 'problem' regarding the young woman you met - I have to agree with Marital and the others here - not worth pursuing. Just me personally, the age difference would bother me, and also I wouldn't feel ready to pursue anything like it until I had my career and financial footing back. Again, this is probably an "easy thing for me to say" thing, but just wanted to relate these things to you.
Great minds think alike! While I don't have a problem with our age difference, I am in no financial position to start dating, let alone a spiritual or emotional one. My position remains the same: Give WW till November 2010, two years after I started Plan B.
Thanks for reading my posts. It's good to hear from you all. When I met this young woman, I thought, man oh man, she's beautiful, why not go out with her? Then I reflect on the matter, talk with friends and the vets, and find that it's too early for me to go out with anyone.
Hope you are well, Tom. Thanks for reading my posts. I will pray tonight for you and yours.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4 and DD2.5) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
I have a problem with you dating some one way to young for you.
I have a problem with this 23 yo's judgement because she thinks it's ok to date her dad.
I have a problem with you plan B'ing your WW. She divorced you. Plan B is over as far as a tool to get her back. Odds are WW won't come back. However to heal I would continue to NC your WW so you will heal.
I have a problem that at your age you have never heard that someone is not ready to date until one year has gone by so they have had the time needed to mourn the loss of the old relationship.
Evidently the child you want to date sadly is just as uneducated to this fact as well. Which shows she is not dating material.
I agree with you. She's too young. Also, I'm too attached to the possibility of reconciliation with WW.
I won't speak with the young chickadee. I want to, but shouldn't. Wisdom beats feelings, right?
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
I wish you well but the "young chickadee" contm is beneath you and also heer. she is not a young 'chikjadee" she is probably a yourng womman looking to nmake best of her iife.
anyway I wish you well for new year. I can apprecaited why you would hang eon to the thought of your and wife reconcidling but at this time it soesn;t seem psossible Anything can halpppen MJ but it will take her to realie who she has lost. In meantime I wisghe you a very hapy new yeaf and hopefuly good things in terms of your own likfe.
am now preparting for new yurs ever here son and his lady are coming over and sice it is warmer here now ofr december am going to krill shripm tomorrow. right now eneed to rest.
As for my WW, she's lost a good man and the father of her two beautiful daughters; that's what she has lost. When our girls were very young, I got up every morning after coming home from work at 3:30 a.m. to wake up the girls, dress them, and put them in the car to day care; and I took her to the airport when I was in Plan A. The OM can't even be bothered to take them to the airport; or that's what DD4.5 said last week. Eventually reality will prevail, as Dr. H told me on his radio show. I just need to get a good job and climb out of this lower ring of purgatory.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
A friend mentioned "Send in the Clowns" on his Facebook page last night. He intended the reference to be derogatory, but I remember the song as not only pretty, but also sad and poignant.
The incident caused me to read the lyrics online and listen to the song again. Could it apply to my marital situation? Sure enough, it does.
Please see the lyrics below and listen to Sinatra's version of the song. Perhaps some of you have heard this song or songs like it and felt the same?
Quote
Isn't it rich? Are we a pair? Me here at last on the ground, You in mid-air. Send in the clowns.
Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve? One who keeps tearing around, One who can't move. Where are the clowns? Send in the clowns.
Just when I'd stopped Opening doors, Finally knowing The one that I wanted was yours, Making my entrance again With my usual flair, Sure of my lines, No one is there.
Don't you love farce? My fault, I fear. I thought that you'd want what I want - Sorry, my dear. But where are the clowns? There ought to be clowns. Quick, send in the clowns.
What a surprise. Who could foresee I'd come to feel about you What you'd felt about me? Why only now when i see That you'd drifted away? What a surprise. What a clich�.
Isn't it rich? Isn't it queer? Losing my timing this late In my career? And where are the clowns? Quick, send in the clowns. Don't bother - they're here.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
I have heard that song much as we have a Sinatra CD with it as one of the songs. Just me, but I never have liked it because it is too melancholy.
Anyway, MJ, I would like to offer you a few suggestions at this point. The first is I think it would be good for you to begin posting on the Divorced/Divorcing forum. I believe I suggested this before. It doesn't look like you're getting much advice here from the vets, other than that regarding the young woman you met, and I feel you would get more input and have more of a connection with those who are trying to recover from a divorce as well. I realize you still consider yourself married based on your faith, and I respect that, but it appears that in her mind she is gone now. The second is to do the best you can to get a new job/career. When my job was eliminated '95 I was told by a friend that your job now is to get a new job/career and work at it 40+ hours a week at least. Final thing is take care of yourself emotionally, physically, and spiritually. In the last couple of years I've found Mary to be a comfort to me in terms of starting with firsr Saturday devotions. Believe it or not, way back when I was in the seminary I had the attitute that Mary was a 'usurper' in a way, and that reference to her should be minimized because reference to her detracted from God. Far from the truth now. If you do start a devotion to her tho please expect that she will be sort of a nag in terms of a Mother's love guiding her child. I guess an additional suggestion is have you considered obtaining a cat or dog as a pet - new family menmber. I know they are not inexpensive with vet fees and all even from a shelter, but just a suggestion. I have two cats - got a dog awhile back but it didnt work out - and I have to ssy MJ that I love teasing them in the evening to relax and they make me laugh so much. They are left with me since Char had to go to the nursing home. We've had at least one cat since we were dating and we lived together in an apt. in Madison for a couple of months before we were married - and he lived for 17 years and we've had about six others since including these two.
Well long-winded but what the hey, I just want you to be well.
The first is I think it would be good for you to begin posting on the Divorced/Divorcing forum.
Good thought, Tom. MichaelJan, it would be a good idea for you to start posting on the Divorced forum. There's a lot of good support there. Start a new thread to let everyone know where you are now, and link your story. I'm sure the moderators can help you with that if you're not sure how to link your thread.
Thanks for the suggestion about moving over to the divorced forum. But it's not just my faith that tells me not to move on. Dr. H. has too.
Dr. H said to wait till this fall for WW's A to end. That will be two full years since I began Plan B. (Dr. H has said this to me on his radio show twice, in the fall of 2010 and last fall).
If I understand you correctly, you suggest I stop Plan B. Is that correct?
Thanks, Tom, for the suggestion about getting a pet. I would get one, and like cats and dogs, but my landlord doesn't allow pets.
I agree with you about getting a new job. I'm on it.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
Thanks for the suggestion about moving over to the divorced forum. But it's not just my faith that tells me not to move on. Dr. H. has too.
I'm not suggesting anything about your personal goals - my thought was that you might be able to contribute to the posters who are going through divorce on that forum.
Thanks for the suggestion about moving over to the divorced forum. But it's not just my faith that tells me not to move on. Dr. H. has too.
Dr. H said to wait till this fall for WW's A to end. That will be two full years since I began Plan B. (Dr. H has said this to me on his radio show twice, in the fall of 2010 and last fall).
If I understand you correctly, you suggest I stop Plan B. Is that correct?
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
After two years time frame doc H gave is based that on his experience planB isn't going to work.
So even though spouses have recovered after two years and or getting divorced a BS should not be holding their breath.
Thing is you should plan B her for life. You said you wanted her to be your wife not friend. That if she wanted to divorce that you would not be her friend and NC WW. That she could not have OM and you.
Does doc H say you are/can have contact with WW now?
We agree. In the fall of 2010, Dr. H advised me that for two years I should plan B WW AND not date another woman. Don't contact WW and don't date; that was his advice.
He has advised not contacting WW unless it's an emergency. In other words, Dr. H. didn't deviate from his advice to everyone.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 (and jobless, again) Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11 The state no longer recognizes my marriage; the Church and I still do
Plan B doesn't need to end after 2 years, I think what ends is that you can start looking at dating others, and if you haven't already become D, you should think about it. That being said, I am in longer than 2 years, and not quite ready to D, but my Plan B has an end date, and that is when my WH has NC for LIFE with OW. Even after a D, I wouldn't communicate with WH directly.
I saw your post awhile ago but just haven't had time to look or post here last week.
I agree with mb. The main reason I suggested the divorced forum was for you to contribute to others in a similar situation and also for some support for you. It was mainly because I understood that the legal divorce was now final, but I understand and recognize your belief in marriage/divorce in terms of your faith.
I hope you're doing well. Me, I may be starting a new job career in editing for a few months starting this coming week. Its sort of complicated to explain, but is with a magazine publisher (no not that online stuff) and ivolves their impression with my attention to detail and desire to persure a writing career. MJ my friend, I am almost age 70 but I have to assure you that jobs are out there if you devote time looking for them. Fortunately I don't have to work for at least a little while but I want to discover what I can continue to do.
The good news is I got a job. It doesn't come with benefits, but pays a decent salary. It's a step up. Combined with my other gig, I will not need to worry nearly as much about my finances or career. I can be a reporter. What's more, I am up to date on my CS payments.
The bad news is WW refused to consider sending DD 4.5 to Catholic school. This rankles me. WW went to Catholic school for a year or two, but refuses to let her own daughter do the same. WW is steamed I don't see or talk with her. Whatever; as helpthelostdads and others say, WW's think only of themselves.
Oh, also, WW refuses to let me deduct one of our kids for federal and state taxes. She will reimburse me. (Her lawyer slipped this provision in at the last moment). Any idea when she must re-imburse me? Or should I withhold CS until she pays me back?
That's it for now. I will have more later.
--------------------------------------------- Me: BH, 41 Her: WW, 34 Never lived together Married 6 years; together 10 years 2 young kids (DD4.5 and DD3.0) Her EA: Fall '08 She moves out of our home: 10/16/09 D-day: 01/22/10 D-day #2: 06/28/10 Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family In Plan B & D since 11/15/10 Her region is a 50/50 custody area OM stopped working with her 08/10 Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10 Wife files for D: 02/10/11 D is final: 10/14/11
-- a lack of financial support; an independent behavior; and an annoying habit: 
We're on the same page: do Plan A as long as possible. In fact, Mr. Wondering made an interesting point recently on another thread: Plan B is more of a prelude to divorce than an affirmative plan to save the marriage.
As for your WH, he talks only with his cousin because he knows that he supports the A while his brother and best friend don't, no?
But telling him that he can't stop me from contacting his family and friends -- well, it has been five weeks since I wrote and an email now might seem odd. I'm undecided on this. 
Great idea. I will find her email and ask.
Let me explain more. For now, I have one question: What leads you to conclude that my WW (aka Honey) has "obviously chosen to divorce"? That's her frame of mind now as opposed to two or three months down the line, right?
... And yet she sounded genuinely hopeful today when I told her that I received a verbal offer of employment.
She didn't contact me at all yesterday, a day when I took care of the girls at my place, which indicates usually she's with OM. 
you, MJ, but I can't for the life of me understand why you have spent a year fiddling while Rome burns. You have wandered in the desert of Plan Hope while your WW builds a new life for herself and your DDs. 
