Marriage Builders
Posted By: saddestwife I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 08:43 PM
I ended my affair, for real, on every level. Something in my brain just snapped shut and it is so very over.

Married for 25 years, together for 35 (1st date @ 15), 3 kids. My affair started in March, H figured in out pretty quick, lots of drama, etc.

Nonetheless, he still wants to work it out which I find as mysterious as Stonehenge. Work things out with me? Why? I'm the lowest form of humanity -- men cheat on their wives, women cheat on their husbands AND their children. And being a good mother is the only thing that has ever much mattered to me.

So now I am faced with the prospect of trying to fix things without losing myself in the process. And losing my sense of self -- becoming essentially invisible in the marriage -- is the primary reason I had an affair to start with. I've read a lot about why women cheat, and in the end, at least in my case, I don't think it's rocket science. It didn't take much -- the other man was nice to me. My psychiatrist says I am like a puppy -- put out a bowl of warm milk for me and I'll love you forever.

H obviously now has the moral high ground and the emotional upper hand and I am terrified that I will return to my prior state of invisible doormat because I feel such guilt and shame. I can't go back there though -- I'll die, and I mean that quite literally.

How do I go about trying to fix this without losing myself in the process? I read a LOT on this forum about what the betrayed spouse should do but what is the adulteress to do? I've ended it and said I was sorry. I'm not ready to divulge all the gory details although I might be someday, preferably in the presence of a licensed therapist who is armed. And H hasn't indicated that he wants to know much of anything.

I haven't seen it said anywhere but let me tell all you BS's having an affair is absolutely exhausting, and, whatever it may look like from the outside, it is just not all that much fun. I am so tired, tired of lying, tired of worrying, tired of talking about the marriage, tired of me. I'm leaving in a few minutes to meet my H at a house we have in another state and I am trying to get the energy up to endure whatever he is about to serve up. I know he deserves to say whatever he needs to say, but it just isn't helpful. He can't possibly hate me more than I hate me. But bear in mind, I hated myself before I strayed. The three weeks after H left were possibly the most contented of my entire life because I could be me and he wasn't around to tell me all of the things that are wrong with me.

In my opinion, the only thing more damaging to a M than an affair is contempt.

I'm at the end of my rope. Please someone tell me how to protect myself while allowing him to vent.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I ended my affair, for real, on every level. Something in my brain just snapped shut and it is so very over.

Married for 25 years, together for 35 (1st date @ 15), 3 kids. My affair started in March, H figured in out pretty quick, lots of drama, etc.

Nonetheless, he still wants to work it out which I find as mysterious as Stonehenge. Work things out with me? Why? I'm the lowest form of humanity -- men cheat on their wives, women cheat on their husbands AND their children. And being a good mother is the only thing that has ever much mattered to me.

So now I am faced with the prospect of trying to fix things without losing myself in the process. And losing my sense of self -- becoming essentially invisible in the marriage -- is the primary reason I had an affair to start with. I've read a lot about why women cheat, and in the end, at least in my case, I don't think it's rocket science. It didn't take much -- the other man was nice to me. My psychiatrist says I am like a puppy -- put out a bowl of warm milk for me and I'll love you forever.

H obviously now has the moral high ground and the emotional upper hand and I am terrified that I will return to my prior state of invisible doormat because I feel such guilt and shame. I can't go back there though -- I'll die, and I mean that quite literally.

How do I go about trying to fix this without losing myself in the process? I read a LOT on this forum about what the betrayed spouse should do but what is the adulteress to do? I've ended it and said I was sorry. I'm not ready to divulge all the gory details although I might be someday, preferably in the presence of a licensed therapist who is armed. And H hasn't indicated that he wants to know much of anything.

I haven't seen it said anywhere but let me tell all you BS's having an affair is absolutely exhausting, and, whatever it may look like from the outside, it is just not all that much fun. I am so tired, tired of lying, tired of worrying, tired of talking about the marriage, tired of me. I'm leaving in a few minutes to meet my H at a house we have in another state and I am trying to get the energy up to endure whatever he is about to serve up. I know he deserves to say whatever he needs to say, but it just isn't helpful. He can't possibly hate me more than I hate me. But bear in mind, I hated myself before I strayed. The three weeks after H left were possibly the most contented of my entire life because I could be me and he wasn't around to tell me all of the things that are wrong with me.

In my opinion, the only thing more damaging to a M than an affair is contempt.

I'm at the end of my rope. Please someone tell me how to protect myself while allowing him to vent.


Send your husband here. He needs the help. See, this post screams me! me! me! I'm a BS... so I think I'll just take a back seat on this one and let some of our FWS come and help YOU.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:21 PM
Yes; bring your husband here ASAP. And order the book Surviving an Affair, which can teach the two of you how to work it out.

Start reading:
How to Survive Infidelity (read all the links down the left hand side)
Basic Concepts (again, read all the links)
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
In my opinion, the only thing more damaging to a M than an affair is contempt.

That may be true in your situation, but people who've actually researched many marriages and other devastating life events have found that an affair is more damaging than anything else it has ever been compared to, as judged by people who have experienced both. For example, having your spouse betray you was judged worse than the loss of a child, by people who had been through both, worse than the loss of a limb, worse than the death of a spouse, worse than several other traumas.

Cheating on your spouse hurts them worse than anything else you could possibly do to them, and worse than anything they could possibly do to themselves.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
In my opinion, the only thing more damaging to a M than an affair is contempt.

That's pretty easy to say when you've only experienced the one. I've experienced both and the affair is WAY worse.......bar none.....

Quote
I'm at the end of my rope. Please someone tell me how to protect myself while allowing him to vent.

So by this, am I too assume you only want help on how to protect YOU from the man whom you've just delivered a knife wound to his very heart and NOT on how to repair the pain you've inflicted or the marriage??...... skeptical

You start at the beginning.....buy "Surviving An Affair" and call the coaching center......

Good luck......

Not2fun
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:35 PM
That opening post sounds more like a pity party to me.

H want's to stay married!

Do You?

If you do, then what are YOU willing to bring to the table?
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:41 PM
Wow.... dramaqueen



See, I just cant talk to them when they are this Foggy.
It's like a trigger to me.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:49 PM
I don't post much here anymore. Unlike you, my wife (excuse me, my ex-wife) left our marriage to pursue her affair, and even when it died, continued to live in her own misery. I haven't seen a glimpse of her or heard a spoken word from her in months.

She can't find a way to bring herself back.

And I've traveled a long, painful path. I wouldn't take her back, now.

You have a chance. But you have to understand that the burden falls entirely on your shoulders to make that happen. That means no shirking on telling the details, if that's what your husband needs. It means doing all the "heavy lifting" to bring your marriage into recovery.

Your husband has the right to end the marriage at any time now. You dealt him that card. And the only way he isn't going to play it is if you show him he has a winning hand without it.

Good luck.
Posted By: stillhope Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 09:56 PM
So true Fred! My WH dealt me this same hand on June 1st. This is absolutely the WORST pain I've ever felt in my entire life!!! Had he died instead of betraying me, the pain would be less...and yes I have thought that many times this past month.

I am trying to restore my marriage, yet my WH knows that I won't put up with this abuse ever again! I call it abuse because to me this was the worst thing he could have done to me~ever!

He isn't ready to answer all of my questions yet...some of my questions are about details & he can't see why that would help me in any way. He thinks it would hurt me more to know everything. I don't agree! If your husband asks you a question you must be an open book to him...from this day forward!

No more secrets! I am readying Surviving an Affair...I LOVE that book! Your husband needs to join this site & you two should stay off of each others posts. That way he can be fully honest & open about his feelings & get the feedback he needs from others on here without worrying about you seeing it.

I agree with all the posts on here. What are YOU willing to do for your BS now?
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:12 PM
SW,

I'm not ready to divulge all the gory details...

It's important for you to be willing to do so WHEN and IF HE ASKS and be completely honest. Dishonesty got you where you are now, more dishonesty will not help.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:20 PM
I am a FWW, and I can tell you exactly what you need:

1. Humility - you made a conscious choice to do wrong, so you have no right to pick apart your H. You're right, he does have the moral high ground right now

2. Responsibility - Your A was your choice. I was invisible too. It stunk. But I had other options at my disposal. I chose to cheat. My H's lack of attention did not mitigate my responsibility.

3. Honesty - whether you feel like telling gory details is irrelevant. You H deserves to know, and if he asks, you tell. Period

4. Perspective - what you have done to your husband is the ultimate marital betrayal. There is nothing that compares.

5. Patience - it takes 2-5 years to really recover from an A. The first year is TOUGH. The BS is hurt and angry for a long time -- it is like grieving. If your H just found out that his child died, would your primary concern be how much emotion he may show or how soon he would get over it?

Another WW posted recently. Her post was about a paragraph. She stated what she had done, how it was inexcusable, and wanted to help her H. Your post was mostly about how you don't want to lose yourself and be invisible and how your A was your H's fault. If you are getting that from your psychiatrist, it's time for a new psychiatrist. I have bipolar disorder, so I have lots of experience with psychiatrists. One who spouts all that "self-entitlement" crud is not worth going to.

I know my post is harsh, and I am usually not that way. But the proper response when we rip our spouse to shreds should be abject horror, repentance, and a willingness to do whatever it takes to make things right.

I second the recommendation to read Surviving an Affair. I remember reading it with a big chip on my shoulder the summer of 2006. I was sitting at the pool, and less than halfway through I was crying, crushed over the choice I had so callously made.

The best remedy for a WS is a broken, softened heart.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:22 PM
Saddestwife,

First, welcome to MB. I hope it will help you. You said a lot of things that suggest you are really in the fog about all of this. So please permit me to probe a little bit to obtain a better understanding of what your goals really are. Before I start let me say what my general impression is from your post, then what I ask and point out will make more sense to you.

First impression is that you don�t really want to address what you have done, at least if it is going to cause you pain.

Second, you don�t seem to know what love is and how to go about doing it.

Third, You are blaming your H for your affair although you say by saying that you will have to lose yourself to fix the marriage.

Fourth, you say that you psych. Says you are �like a puppy� which is an interesting copout avoiding personal responsibility and ones vows.

So let�s talk abit about what you said
Quote
Nonetheless, he still wants to work it out which I find as mysterious as Stonehenge. Work things out with me? Why? I'm the lowest form of humanity
Interesting statement don�t you think? You find it mysterious that your H loves you and you place the blame on your behavior of being �the lowest form of humanity�. Nice! If you truly were the lowest form then perhaps your behavior might be acceptable. As your H knows you are not, and we strongly suspect you are not, then you are left to realize you don�t have that excuse for what you have done.

Quote
How do I go about trying to fix this without losing myself in the process? I read a LOT on this forum about what the betrayed spouse should do but what is the adulteress to do? I've ended it and said I was sorry. I'm not ready to divulge all the gory details although I might be someday, preferably in the presence of a licensed therapist who is armed. And H hasn't indicated that he wants to know much of anything.
So let�s start with the I�ve ended it and said I am sorry. Saying �I�m sorry� is not even the minimum entry fee into fixing this mess. It hardly counts for much, but it is necessary IF you are truly sorry, which from the first part and last part of this statement you really are not. You have lied and withheld information from your H and you plan to continue to do this, doesn�t sound like a repentant WS to me. What you should be doing in this order is:
1. Be very honest with your H.
2. Quit blaming others and the situation for your own lapse of good morals and failure to protect your boundaries.
3. Start to figure out your H�s needs and meet them. Figure out your own needs and communicate them to your H.
4. Your implication about the �armed� comment is not funny, and it indicates that you have a very low opinion of your H and his internal strength.

As for losing yourself, it would seem that a significant part of you ought to be lost, but what must be found is who you really are, what do you really stand for, and where are your boundaries. You have lost all of these things and you need to find them. Rebuilding a marriage is not about losing things as much as it is about adding things and changing perspectives about your life and your spouse. You may have read here, but the filter of your affair has clearly prevented you from understanding what you have read. Please go back and reread the articles here and obtain a copy of Surviving an Affair, SAA.

There is much more to say to you and a lot you can be doing to address this situation, but step one is YOU deciding if you want to remain married. If you don�t, then refrain from putting your H through the ringer of a false recovery.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:28 PM
I gather this thread is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a thread point me to it.

I ordered the books earlier this week.

It was never my intention to discount his pain. I recognize that an affair trumps everything.

I'm willing to tell him the details if he wants to hear but not if he is going to get violent again.

My short term thinking has been to do no more damage to him, me or our marriage. I came to this forum expecting some help on setting boundaries on what a productive discussion might look like. I get back "foggy" and "pity party" and I want to protect myself at his expense. Really? And you get to say that because you know so much about me? Or is it because you are mad that a cheating spouse had the nerve to post here looking for help?

What am I willing to do? Anything up to becoming suicidal again.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:37 PM
SW,

Actually, many here will agree, you do have to put your foot down and not tolerate abuse from you husband, tell him he can express any emotion he needs to in an intense but respectful way.

Many here understand too that you have two very difficult problems to solve at the same time.

Whatever you do do not try to justify the affair based on previous abuse in the marriage, this is a choice you made, the abuse is a choice he made, both crimes need to end.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:49 PM
I am a FWW, and I did respond. I missed the violence part - no, that is never acceptable. The reason your post struck me the way it did is that I read a lot of my wayward self in what you wrote. You will get some hard knocks here....but it is worth it if you want to save your marriage. It's like surgery to remove a horrible tumor. It's painful, it has to heal, but it has to be done.
Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 10:54 PM
Actually, there are quite a few former-waywards (myself included) here on this board. The reason you are getting a lot of flack from people is because your way of thinking is still very actively wayward. There's a lot of evidence to support this is what you have said:

1. "I am faced with the prospect of trying to fix things without losing myself in the process. And losing my sense of self -- becoming essentially invisible in the marriage -- is the primary reason I had an affair to start with."

This is a prime example of what foggy waywards do in order to justify their actions. They make excuses for doing what they have done by blaming their actions on their betrayed spouse. Here, you are clearly stating that the reason you had an affair is because you were invisible in your marriage. That's not the reason you had an affair at all. You had an affair because you had very poor boundaries in your marriage. Every marriage has problems, but that is no excuse for anyone to have an affair. If you want people to stop referring to you as "foggy" then stop making excuses for what you have done.

2. "H obviously now has the moral high ground and the emotional upper hand and I am terrified that I will return to my prior state of invisible doormat because I feel such guilt and shame. I can't go back there though -- I'll die, and I mean that quite literally."

Another blatant example of you blaming your H for your actions.

3. "How do I go about trying to fix this without losing myself in the process?"

Your statement here illustrates quite well that you are far more interested in not "losing yourself" (whatever that means) than you are in healing your marriage. Nowhere in your post do you express the slightest realization of the pain that your actions have caused your H. Everything in your post cries "me, me, me."

4. "I haven't seen it said anywhere but let me tell all you BS's having an affair is absolutely exhausting, and, whatever it may look like from the outside, it is just not all that much fun. I am so tired, tired of lying, tired of worrying, tired of talking about the marriage, tired of me."

This is like slapping the BS's in the face and minimizing their pain (which they did NOT choose) by telling them that your pain, as the WS (would you did freely choose) is so much worse. And you wonder why it is that so many of them are taking offense at your words.

It may not have been your intention to discount the pain of your BH or other BS's, but that's exactly what you did. There are plenty of people here who will be more than willing to help you, but first you need to stop blaming your BH for your actions and making excuses for what you have done. That's not going to get you anywhere.

A questions: You mention your H getting violent again? Is there a history of violence in your marriage? You also mention being suicidal. Have you attempted suicide in the past?
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I gather this thread is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a thread point me to it.

I'm very confused ... you started the thread, and people are giving you advice. I've been here several months and seen several marriages begin to recover and several not recover, and the advice you are getting is the advice that has helped many marriages recover. It's good advice.

It won't help you for people to just try to make you feel better. That won't help you feel better any more than the affair did. What do you want; more exhauston?

Please bring your husband here. He needs the help that can be obtained here.

So do you.

Please do the things people are suggesting. They know what will help and what won't.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/09/10 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I gather this thread is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a thread point me to it.

I ordered the books earlier this week.

It was never my intention to discount his pain. I recognize that an affair trumps everything.

I'm willing to tell him the details if he wants to hear but not if he is going to get violent again.

My short term thinking has been to do no more damage to him, me or our marriage. I came to this forum expecting some help on setting boundaries on what a productive discussion might look like. I get back "foggy" and "pity party" and I want to protect myself at his expense. Really? And you get to say that because you know so much about me? Or is it because you are mad that a cheating spouse had the nerve to post here looking for help?

What am I willing to do? Anything up to becoming suicidal again.

Saddestwife,

I was a cheater. I betrayed my wife in autumn 2008. I got myself into an emotional affair with a married woman, and it became physical about half-way through. Yeah, I know all about how exhausting & stressful it is to live a double-life and deceitfully divide one's attentions & affection & time between a spouse and a lover. But ma'am, that was an exhaustion which I CHOSE. When you're as far past your affair as I am now, perhaps (I hope) you'll realize how self-pitiable it indeed sounds for you to complain about the results of your own choices. Now, listen up:

I first showed up on these boards 7 months after my affair ended. And there's a lot I could & can tell you from the standpoint of an adulterer who has recovered his marriage. But I'm gonna leave you with just a few thoughts for now:

- As lurioosi2 said: Humility. If you want to give your marriage a fair shake, you need to ooze with it. Your words indicate that you do not. Excuse me: Your husband has just had the one person who swore to protect him, whom he most expected to "have his back" when things get tough, and that person has just torn out his heart and spiked it to the dirt.

- Responsibility: So you had issues in your marriage? After 18 years of marriage, I'll ask you rhetorically, Who doesn't? Yet only one of you chose to have an affair. Own your choice. You weren't a "puppy," you were a person who made a whole string of choices. You liked the attention & compliments you got from this guy, and you made choices to let things proceed to each successive step, leading into his bed. I know, because I made the same choices. No one slipped anything into my drink, and no one held a gun to my head. At the core, I did it because I felt entitled & I was selfish. It was easier for me to enjoy the attentions of a woman who lavished attention on me, then to do the hard emotional spadework with my wife that could've shored up our marriage. Until you get to the point of grasping & acknowledging the depth of that selfishness, then you're going to be "in the fog", as they say on these boards.

Now, if you'd asked me several days after my affair ended, I'd have told you that I didn't look for an affair, that I only started out trying to offer a comforting ear to a friend who came to me complaining of issues in her marriage. But that missed the point; it wasn't my other woman's behavior that caused my affair, nor was it my wife's. It was my own conduct. I alone could've said no, and I failed. Learn from your failure and resolve never to repeat it.

Why don't you tell us what your husband is feeling & saying? You need to start living attuned to his feelings. Your posts have been mainly concerned with your own feelings. My early posts (lost to a server-crash in October 2009, unfortunately) were somewhat the same.

As has been recommended, do order the book "Surviving an Affair" asap. My wife & I consider ourselves fortunate that our marriage counselor assigned us to read it. Ideally, you and your husband will both read it asap. It will give you both lots of insight & some tools to rebuild your relationship and meet one another's emotional needs in a way that will make it less likely that this will ever happen again.

Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 12:03 AM
SW,

Interesting interpretation of what has been said to you
Quote
I gather this thread is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a thread point me to it.

I ordered the books earlier this week.

It was never my intention to discount his pain. I recognize that an affair trumps everything.

I'm willing to tell him the details if he wants to hear but not if he is going to get violent again.

My short term thinking has been to do no more damage to him, me or our marriage. I came to this forum expecting some help on setting boundaries on what a productive discussion might look like. I get back "foggy" and "pity party" and I want to protect myself at his expense. Really? And you get to say that because you know so much about me? Or is it because you are mad that a cheating spouse had the nerve to post here looking for help?

What am I willing to do? Anything up to becoming suicidal again.


What you have not picked up is that all of us are parroting to you how your communications sounds to us AND none of us are your spouse. Imagine how he will hear what you are saying.

The purpose of most of our posts is to point out to you that you may "think" you know what you are saying but what you are saying is NOT going to help your situation. Now go back and reread all of our posts and you will see that many answered your questions and ALL pointed out how your post struck us. It wasn't very positively was it??

INterestingly you got the same responses from those that have been a BS, a WS and neither. This strongly suggests all of us are seeing something you are not.

As for you becoming suicidal, that is your choice but not one any of us recommend nor seek in your case. You control that as well and it is NOT a good tool for rebuilding a marriage, a life, or being a parent/friend. If you are feeling that seek HELP IMMEDIATELY, that is the best advice any of us can offer you on that point.

In case you haven't figured out, the main thing that must happen is that you learn to communicate with your H, hence all of our responses. If you try to communicate with him as you did here, you will sound "fogged up" and very insincere.

Pleae think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
And you get to say that because you know so much about me? Or is it because you are mad that a cheating spouse had the nerve to post here looking for help?

For someone who says they WANT help, insulting the ones you are asking isn't going to get you very far. Drop the weapons......you are like the woman drowning, calling for help, then you start shooting at the people trying to throw ya the life preserve..... crazy

We say what we say because we KNOW. We have been where you and your H are. There is NOTHING you can say to us that we haven't heard before. NOTHING. Including the violence......

IF your H gets violent with you, call the police. Plain and simple. EAsy?? No, but there is no easy way out of the infidelity or a violent situation.

So are you REALLY ready for the help???

Not2fun

Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Gack1
Wow.... dramaqueen
See, I just cant talk to them when they are this Foggy.
It's like a trigger to me.

Hee Hee...It is amazing how similar they all sound. She isn't broken yet. I hope she sticks around and learns a few things.
Posted By: navewife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:18 AM
I agree on the painful thing, I was raped as a teen, and I can say without hesitation, my H affair was worse, I would be raped 5 times over then do this again. Also, I must say this post definatly screams me me me. If you really REALLY love your husband and want this marriage, then YOU have to put your BS first for a while, he needs time to heal. Marriage is a team thing not an individual thing. Give and take, not take take take. When you realize that I think things can get better but as long as you have a "selfish" type attitude, you wont get far. Definatly get your hubby to come here, and if you are TRUELY sincere about wanting your marriage, really start focusing on the damage you have done and how to grow a more healthy marriage.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:19 AM
I read enough of the website where I got the impression that raging at the BS is not considered helpful and I thought what I was asking was how to protect myself from his rage such that further damage is not done to the marriage. The wisdom of the forum seems to be that I forfeited any right to set boundaries on how he talks to me and I should simply endure.

I have never and will never shirk responsibility for the decision I made to have an A. I was trying to explain the issues with me that factored into that decision. I'm not a puppy, nor am I an idiot. I failed to take care of my emotional well being by being assertive with my H and kids and set some meanindul boundaries. I'm a giver - I will go to,ridiculous lengths to keep my family happy no matter how miserable it makes me. And I never say word. But you cannot give from an empty plate. My H has nor been emotionally supportive or available for the last several years and he admits it. He also admits he has been hypercritical and controlling of me -doesnt want me to leave the house or have friends -- and I'm talking about prior to the A. I am NOT trying to justify my conduct -I am describing the context in which I made a terrible decision. I chose to go to another man for an emotional fill up because I was way past empty. Wasn't looking for it - and I know there's going to be a chorus of yes you were but no, I wasn't. I said no to the other man right up until the time I said yes.

Being pursued is intoxicating and likening it to drug addiction is dead on. Possibly if it hadn't been this guy who I met quite randomly and would never normally encounter - he lives in Europe half the time - it would have been someone else later. But I doubt it. I think I would have limped along keeping my H and kids happy, living an internal life of resentment and misery, until one day I died.

I thought maybe the A might be a catalyst for a different kind of marriage. 5 hours ago when I posted here I was guardedly optimistic. But there's no hope- his rage requires that he annihilate me and if I put up any sort of fight at all I'm not acknowledging his pain or I'm making making excuses. I'm now toast.

And Mr. Pity Party - I'd be careful in the future - you don't have the faintest idea what is going on in the lives of those who are closest to you for the most part, much less someone who is posting on a website on such an emotionally charged issue. You should be mindful of the damage you can do with your contempt and dismissiveness - "I'm going to sit back and watch this one." I recognize cruelty when I see it and having bared my soul looking for collective wisdom, I read that and gave up.

You are responsible for ALL your decisions, including your decision to deride me.

I better just shut up and take whatever he dishes out then. I'm extremely

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:24 AM
Smilingwoman, is broken the goal?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I read enough of the website where I got the impression that raging at the BS is not considered helpful and I thought what I was asking was how to protect myself from his rage such that further damage is not done to the marriage. The wisdom of the forum seems to be that I forfeited any right to set boundaries on how he talks to me and I should simply endure.

I have never and will never shirk responsibility for the decision I made to have an A. I was trying to explain the issues with me that factored into that decision. I'm not a puppy, nor am I an idiot. I failed to take care of my emotional well being by being assertive with my H and kids and set some meanindul boundaries. I'm a giver - I will go to,ridiculous lengths to keep my family happy no matter how miserable it makes me. And I never say word. But you cannot give from an empty plate. My H has nor been emotionally supportive or available for the last several years and he admits it. He also admits he has been hypercritical and controlling of me -doesnt want me to leave the house or have friends -- and I'm talking about prior to the A. I am NOT trying to justify my conduct -I am describing the context in which I made a terrible decision. I chose to go to another man for an emotional fill up because I was way past empty. Wasn't looking for it - and I know there's going to be a chorus of yes you were but no, I wasn't. I said no to the other man right up until the time I said yes.

Being pursued is intoxicating and likening it to drug addiction is dead on. Possibly if it hadn't been this guy who I met quite randomly and would never normally encounter - he lives in Europe half the time - it would have been someone else later. But I doubt it. I think I would have limped along keeping my H and kids happy, living an internal life of resentment and misery, until one day I died.

I thought maybe the A might be a catalyst for a different kind of marriage. 5 hours ago when I posted here I was guardedly optimistic. But there's no hope- his rage requires that he annihilate me and if I put up any sort of fight at all I'm not acknowledging his pain or I'm making making excuses. I'm now toast.

And Mr. Pity Party - I'd be careful in the future - you don't have the faintest idea what is going on in the lives of those who are closest to you for the most part, much less someone who is posting on a website on such an emotionally charged issue. You should be mindful of the damage you can do with your contempt and dismissiveness - "I'm going to sit back and watch this one." I recognize cruelty when I see it and having bared my soul looking for collective wisdom, I read that and gave up.

You are responsible for ALL your decisions, including your decision to deride me.

I better just shut up and take whatever he dishes out then. I'm extremely

You aren't listening...you are too busy being angry at everyone. LISTEN. There are vets on these boards who can help you save you from yourself and possibly save your marriage. But you MUST drop the defensiveness and LISTEN.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Smilingwoman, is broken the goal?

When you stop all the justifications and defensiveness you will start to LISTEN. And I don't mean broken as in worthless....I mean admitting that you are broken. You ARE broken..you just won't admit it. I read a quote here the other day..Without humility there can be no remorse.

You do not appear to have any humility.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I read enough of the website where I got the impression that raging at the BS is not considered helpful and I thought what I was asking was how to protect myself from his rage such that further damage is not done to the marriage. The wisdom of the forum seems to be that I forfeited any right to set boundaries on how he talks to me and I should simply endure.

Now THIS is a another issue. It didn't stand out in your first post. If he is raging and violent then get away from him. Is he normally this way? Or is his rage limited to this horrible thing that you have done to him?

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:32 AM
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

That is too bad. For you. JustLearning and Writer had really good things to say to you. You aren't listening.

And like I said, 'you are already broken...you just can't admit it yet.' Even though you are arrogant and foggy people here would be happy to help you. You aren't our entertainment. It is just that we have seen it all before. That is hard to take isn't it? That you are a run of the mill Wayward Wife. That your adultery partner is a run of the mill cheater. That your adultery isn't special.

Humility. That is what will show you know you are broken and that YOU need help to fix YOU.
Posted By: Redeem_Me Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by GloveOil
At the core, I did it because I felt entitled & I was selfish. It was easier for me to enjoy the attentions of a woman who lavished attention on me, than to do the hard emotional spadework with my wife that could've shored up our marriage.


I agree with this 100%. Nicely put. (And, by the way, I am a wayward wife... well, former wayward wife... I'm new here so still learning all these abbreviations.)
Posted By: Rizos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

Saddestwife,

I'm sorry that you have to be here, but please keep in mind that if you really want to have a great marriage, this is the best place to be. I promise you that even though some of them sound harsh, they are telling you the REAL truth!!!

You know, don't feel bad, you are not alone. We all(Wayward spouses) sounded the same at the beginning, no distinction. It has taken me almost 8 months to realize this. And the worst is, that when you realized it, you will feel as stupid as I do right now! You will realize that being foggy doesn't mean that you are still in contact with the OM, it means that YOU just don't get it yet. And you'll know when you are de-fogged when you start reading newly threads and wonder what the hell are they thinking!

Now, as I re-read surviving an affair, or other books by Dr. H, I understand them in a different way. But keep in mind, working on fixing your marriage,being super happy and in love with your BH again, is not going to be easy. It's a lot of work, an somedays you'll want to run away, an others you'll love your H. But if you keep focus, and READ and LISTEN to what this people have to say, you'll be on the right path to recovery. I hope you do.

Best of luck... and be strong, I still get 2x4's from time to time. Melodylane is keeping an eye on me at all times!!!


Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I gather this thread is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a thread point me to it.

Check out the thread titled "Extraordinary Precautions" for starters. It's was bumped today for another WW. Then see if you can find Pepperbands "Noteable Posts" thread, it is great to read.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I ordered the books earlier this week.

I'm assuming you ordered "Surviving an Affair". I would start there and then recommend moving to "Fall In Love, Stay In Love".


Originally Posted by saddestwife
It was never my intention to discount his pain. I recognize that an affair trumps everything.

That's not how your first post sounded at all!


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm willing to tell him the details if he wants to hear but not if he is going to get violent again.

Did he strike you? Or what?

I've seen this "violent" word used frequently by wayward wives, only to find out that their husband was screaming and visibly angry.

I think, screaming, yelling, crying, throwing things, punching a wall can all be catagorized as pretty normal after having your heart ripped out!


Originally Posted by saddestwife
My short term thinking has been to do no more damage to him, me or our marriage.

I would expect this to be a LONG term goal as well.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I came to this forum expecting some help on setting boundaries on what a productive discussion might look like. I get back "foggy" and "pity party" and I want to protect myself at his expense. Really? And you get to say that because you know so much about me? Or is it because you are mad that a cheating spouse had the nerve to post here looking for help?

<cough> uhm, I'm a former wayward myself.... you know, a cheating spouse like yourself that has had the nerve to post too.

I'm the cheating spouse that even said you were having a pity party! I've had pity parties too and they sounded identical to the one you had in your first post.... Sorry for callin it like I see it. But someone truly interested in help would not be so quick to give up or quit so soon unless they were really just looking to have a pity party to start with.... <shrug>


Originally Posted by saddestwife
What am I willing to do? Anything up to becoming suicidal again.

Can you be any more dramatic? dramaqueen

Seriously, I was looking for some concrete answers, real examples of what you are willing to do??
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:59 AM
Hi, SW. Before you jump much farther into your quagmire, you should take a look at my thread, and the posts of my wife, SadSoSad, who later became MadSoMad, and now is known as DancesWithGoats. See what I was and what I did and what I posted when I first came to this site, and you will understand why people are being harsh with you. Every one of those people told me exactly what I needed to hear and what I am still understanding more completely each day.

From what I can see, you and your husband both need this place and the understanding that these wise and experienced people have to offer you. You are not getting the sympathy that you were seeking, but you are deep asleep and getting doused with cold water immersion therapy. You have to wake up before you can start to think clearly. Neither you nor your husband apparently have had any concept of what marriage is. You are like millions of others who have grown up worshipping at the altar of self. In a marriage, there is no separate self except for the binary entity of a married couple. If you are not ready to give up the separate self, you might as well close up shop, end the marriage, and leave this place. Do you want to recover? Do you want to learn what marriage actually is? Do you want to do the work? Or do you just want a place where people will make you feel better about yourself? It is entirely up to you.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 12:33 PM
So melodramatic. Snap out of it. Okay, we get it, you were a giver. So instead of telling your BH we have a problem and that he needs to start giving back, you didn't say anything and chose the passive agressive route and had an affair. Quit blaming your husband. You are 50% to blame for the state of the marriage before the affair. If you were so miserable before the affair, it is your responsibility to tell your husband so you can fix things. Is he supposed to be a mind reader? If you have a problem in the marriage, you need to tell your BH. No more being a conflict avoider. You got yourself into this situation, and you are solely to blame for your affair. Instead of "worrying about losing yourself in the marriage" again, why don't you focus your energy on how to make your marriage good using MB principles. If in the future your needs are still not being met and you are miserable, the answer is to get a divorce, not start an affair. You have been haunted by your own poor choices. If you don't start making better choices, you will continue to be miserable.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

This is so telling.
The "gratuitous cruelty" that you are experiencing .... is honesty.

Honesty is what was missing from your M, pre-adultery.
Honesty is what is missing from your M, post-adultery.

A person who self identifies as a "giver" is usually dishonest.
The GIVER is dishonest about their needs.
The GIVER is dishonest about their motives.
The GIVER is dishonest about their ever-growing resentment.
The GIVER is so dishonest, that the GIVER allows other people to hurt them.

Dishonesty is pretending to your spouse that there is no problem with the way your spouse treated you pre-adultery.
If it was cruel or abusive, it was dishonest of you to remain in that situation.

Dishonesty is pretending that you are doing something noble by NOT enforcing your boundary about controlling or abusive behaviors.

A WS ( especially a female adulterer) who says she lost her identity during the M is suffering because she was dishonest about who she is, which is both a GIVER and a TAKER.

A WW who gives until it hurts, has no boundaries of her own.
A wife without boundaries is low hanging fruit for the OM.

You had NO BOUNDARIES and took on the role of a GIVER in your M.
That became your identity. The wife and mother who is SO GOOD, she sacrifices day in and day out.

But, dear sad wife, every TAKER has her say, one way or another.
Your TAKER came out with a vengeance.
Your TAKER wanted her needs met. So, she had an affair.
Your TAKER threw your GIVER ( who is your self-proclaimed identity ) under the bus.

THIS is why you feel you've lost your identity.
Your TAKER stripped her naked.

You exposed your "I am a GIVER" to be a false identity.


To be continued ......




Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 01:41 PM
...... Continuing .....

THE GOOD TAKER (written by Starfish)


Quote
The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.

But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?

Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:

*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.

*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.

*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.

*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.

*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.

*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.

We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?

*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.

*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.

*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.

*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.

*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.

*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.


As an example, I'd like to put forward my own marriage and how my giver undermined the happiness in my marriage for years. I NEVER went into negotiations with my taker....so I never even got close to getting what I wanted. I always put my husband first. But I wasn't happy. I didn't like it.....and I BLAMED HIM for not giving me what I wanted even though I wasn't honest and he didn't know how to please me. There is no negotiation without the taker...the giver just says "fine", do what you want. I lived with resentment every time he did what he wanted. I punished him for it too. And I was not someone who he would want to spend time with in the future either because I was pretty much angry all the time.

Letting my taker out saved my marriage. Oh to be sure, I couldn't let my taker rant and rage....but once he wasn't in chains all the time, he was far less volatile. My taker is the one who found out that my husband was actually willing and pretty enthusiastice about negotiation. Instead of the old pattern...H wants to do something...I say yes...then treat him badly. The new pattern goes like this....H wants to do something, I tell him how I might feel enthusiastic about that...we come to an agreement about how we can both get what we need....and I treat him well...and we both have fun! He gets to enjoy his activities without guilt. I know that I won't be neglected because we have also made plans together.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
So now I am faced with the prospect of trying to fix things without losing myself in the process. And losing my sense of self -- becoming essentially invisible in the marriage -- is the primary reason I had an affair to start with. I've read a lot about why women cheat, and in the end, at least in my case, I don't think it's rocket science. It didn't take much -- the other man was nice to me. My psychiatrist says I am like a puppy -- put out a bowl of warm milk for me and I'll love you forever.

Your prior "sense of self" depended upon your sacrifice and appearing to have no needs.
I say; "Good riddance!"


Quote
H obviously now has the moral high ground

Here it is, right here .... YOU assume you had the "moral high ground" prior your adultery .... Because you assumed that being the ultimate GIVER gave you " moral high ground".
No, that is simply not true.
Moral high ground is not achieved by dishonesty or continuous sacrifice.

If you want some moral high ground, try honesty.

Quote
I am terrified that I will return to my prior state of invisible doormat because I feel such guilt and shame. I can't go back there though -- I'll die, and I mean that quite literally.


Your status as THE GIVER is lost.
Again, good riddance !
She was a fake.
She was make-believe. As in, make believe I have no needs.

Quote
But bear in mind, I hated myself before I strayed.

This self hatred was a product of YOUR dishonesty, not the way your BH treated you.

Quote
The three weeks after H left were possibly the most contented of my entire life because I could be me and he wasn't around to tell me all of the things that are wrong with me.

You could be you ~~~~> a woman who does not require honesty in her relationships.
All alone, you require no honesty with yourself.
All alone, you require no honesty with BH.
Also, all alone, you require no honesty with OM .... Which was NEVER an honest relationship to begin with.



Quote
In my opinion, the only thing more damaging to a M than an affair is contempt.

No, it is dishonesty.
The dishonest spouse is THE most damaging contributor to the demise of the M.

Quote
Please someone tell me how to protect myself while allowing him to vent.

Try being honest.
Try taking the questionnaires found at the top of the page, in the red area that contains links.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:19 PM
Link to EN questionnaire

Both you and BH take this.
And then share your answers with each other.

Answer with complete HONESTY.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:24 PM
When you and BH are done discussing the EN questionnaires ...
Take the LOVE BUSTER questionnaires. Please note, these are gender specific.

Now, THAT is something "to do" to protect yourself from falling back into your previous mis-steps of becoming the martyr in your relationships.

Best of luck to you.

I sincerely hope you take my advice and do these questionnaires with your husband.
Doing that, is a step towards an honest marriage.

Dishonesty kills love.
Remember that.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:31 PM
Dishonesty ~~~> leads to
I am a martyr ~~~> leads to
I have the moral high ground ~~~> leads to
My H is controlling and abusive ~~~> leads to
Going outside the M to have your needs met

Discovery of adultery ~~~> leads to
I lost my moral high ground ~~~> leads to
I hate myself ~~~> leads to
More dishonesty from your GIVER ~~~> leads to

Divorce


Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 02:36 PM
Quote
I am so out of here

Even if this is true, some other unfaithful LURKER might use the advice.
Someone who is not running away to get as far from honesty as possible.

Bye hug
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Rizos
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

Saddestwife,

I'm sorry that you have to be here, but please keep in mind that if you really want to have a great marriage, this is the best place to be. I promise you that even though some of them sound harsh, they are telling you the REAL truth!!!

You know, don't feel bad, you are not alone. We all(Wayward spouses) sounded the same at the beginning, no distinction. It has taken me almost 8 months to realize this. And the worst is, that when you realized it, you will feel as stupid as I do right now! You will realize that being foggy doesn't mean that you are still in contact with the OM, it means that YOU just don't get it yet. And you'll know when you are de-fogged when you start reading newly threads and wonder what the hell are they thinking!

Now, as I re-read surviving an affair, or other books by Dr. H, I understand them in a different way. But keep in mind, working on fixing your marriage,being super happy and in love with your BH again, is not going to be easy. It's a lot of work, an somedays you'll want to run away, an others you'll love your H. But if you keep focus, and READ and LISTEN to what this people have to say, you'll be on the right path to recovery. I hope you do.

Best of luck... and be strong, I still get 2x4's from time to time. Melodylane is keeping an eye on me at all times!!!

RIZOS !!!!!


This was an EXCELLENT reply.
Well done you!
Posted By: Justlooking24 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I forfeited any right to set boundaries on how he talks to me and I should simply endure.

For right now.... Yup

Posted By: Justlooking24 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

*edit*
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 04:56 PM
I am going to give this one more try operating under the assumption that with a couple of very obvious exceptions, people are here to help in good faith. I think my original post was both imprecise and incomplete.

� Violence: Yes, he was violent towards me one time when he found out the scope of my betrayal. I'm not really bothered much by that -- he was in a rage -- but I do have one concern. In the work I have done with abused women, I learned that a man who is violent once is far more likely to be violent again. Am I really worried about that? No, but I do need to keep it in mind. I am far more troubled by the fact that he hit my best friend that same night and doesn't think he did anything wrong. He's fortunate she didn't call the police. Having said that, he is a good man and I think in time he will recognize that hitting her was wrong. I believe his position that he was justified in hitting her is based on his shame about his loss of control.

� �Giving the gory details�. There are two schools of thought on whether this is a good idea or not. I�m not sure what I think, but to date he hasn�t asked. It may be incumbent on me to bring this up at some point in order to completely address the A rather than sweeping it under the rug. I also think that under the circumstances, those discussions should be with our counselor present.

� The �could you be more dramatic� comment. Yes, I sure could. I could actually kill myself. I was suicidal in 2007, and my initial posting turns on my concern about that. I plunged into a pit of self loathing because I made a bad decision that impacted my whole family, completely unrelated to my marriage. In retrospect, it is clear that others also made bad decisions that contributed to the catastrophe, but at the time I took on all the blame. I convinced myself that the best thing for my children would be if I was dead, and if you are a mother, that conviction makes the decision for you. I can�t speak for other suicidal people, but my decision to end my life was a crystalline moment, as inevitable as the sun rising. And you can spare me the �suicide is the ultimate selfish act� lectures because I get it, but in that moment it does not feel one bit selfish � it feels sacrificial and right. The execution of my plan was interrupted by my brother, but 5 minutes later and it would have been over. At the risk of provoking further outrage, I�m going to suggest that being truly suicidal is like being a BS � if you haven�t been there you cannot understand the unendurable pain. I�m not being dramatic. I�m being factual.
� Pointing out to me that I put myself in this position is simply not helpful. I get it.

� The �broken� comment. I�ve been broken. I�ve been shattered. I don�t see how going back there is going to help.

� The �stop blaming your husband and making excuses� comment. I�m not blaming him. I�m describing the context in which the A occurred. If I can�t talk about why it happened how in heaven�s name are we to address the issues? And one of the biggest issues is that I didn�t set any boundaries and lost myself. And maybe I am in a fog, but I don�t understand how saying I lost myself in the marriage can logically be construed as me making excuses and blaming my H. He didn't lose me. I lost me.

� When I spoke of trying to protect some sense of self from my H�s completely understandable rage, it wasn�t meant lightly like I want to skate by the consequences of my actions. It has been a long journey to recover from the depth of despair I was of �07, and my objective mind sees some warning signs that I am on a return trip. I am isolating myself � he doesn�t like my friends so in order to create an environment in which he feels safe, I have cut off contact. I am enduring the many manifestations of his rage without saying a word because he reacts � like many on this forum � to everything I say as some sort of justification or excuse, and then leverages that into further negative observations about my lack of character. So I am silent or simply agree. But if I don�t figure out a way to set some boundaries pretty soon, I am fearful that I will end up in that place again, and I can�t do that, not even for him. Anything short of that, yes. But I owe my children a functional, emotionally available mother. Watching me go down the tubes in 2007 had a profound impact on them � the safety of their world was shaken.

� My first priority is my children. My H comes second. He knows it because I have told him unequivocally. I have no doubt that many members of this forum will be outraged at that. It isn�t going to change. I betrayed my children as well, and I haven't the first idea how to deal with that.

� I was a good wife in that I tried to keep my H happy and meet his needs. He wrote in a document for our MC after he discovered the A that one of the things he most respects about me is that �she works harder than anyone I know to be a good wife and mother.�

� I was a bad wife in that I never found a way to effectively communicate my needs. The unspoken assumption on some replies is that I didn�t try. You just could not be more wrong. But I did fail, and, like the A, that failure is my responsibility.

� The business about the �Giver� and the �Taker� is dead on, and really gets back to my original point � if I have forfeited my right to set any boundaries which is what I am hearing, how can any sort of balance ever be restored?

� What I�ve done: I have opened up all email, text messages, etc. He finds me having friends threatening, so I don�t have any contact. I sit while he vents and I listen and say nothing or agree with him -- although I did insist he stop calling me the "c" word and he did for a while. At those moments when I feel the most remorse, I seek him out to say I�m sorry � I only do it then because I know he hears it as real rather than reflexive. I sit and cry with him. I try to stay physically close to him so he can check in and get comfort when he needs it � he works at home and I am a stay at home mom, so there is a lot of that. I never express any feelings of my own because he pulls them out and uses them later to wound me, a pattern that WAY predates the A by decades but now is clearly not the time to try and fix it. I don�t expect empathy or kindness because right now I deserve to feel this wretched. And anything I say about needs or feelings is taken as a defense or justification, although I sincerely don't intend it as such.

I can do this for a while, but it is not a sustainable model. History tells me that the quieter I get the more dangerous the situation is, and I am growing ever quieter.

Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 05:21 PM
Quote
� The �stop blaming your husband and making excuses� comment. I�m not blaming him. I�m describing the context in which the A occurred. If I can�t talk about why it happened how in heaven�s name are we to address the issues? And one of the biggest issues is that I didn�t set any boundaries and lost myself. And maybe I am in a fog, but I don�t understand how saying I lost myself in the marriage can logically be construed as me making excuses and blaming my H. He didn't lose me. I lost me.

The context does not matter. Your boundaries are not one of the biggest issues, they are the issues. This is where you are blaming your H. Your marriage was not perfect so you did what you did because of your lack of boundaries? You did what you did because you did not have the boundaries to not do it no matter what your marriage was like.

I am not prepared to answer the rest of this, others far more experienced will do it but I felt compelled to respond to that. I do hope you will stay. Absorb the bad with the good here because it is all meant to direct you in a way that we know works. There is a narrow path for you to take if you want to save this marriage. You can do this, look around at all the people who have.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I am going to give this one more try

Good for you!!!!..... hurray

It is NOT going to be easy....
There is NO EASY road recovering from infidelity. NONE. Divorce is not easy, repairing the marriage is not easy....and honestly, sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it isn't there is NOT easy.

Quote
operating under the assumption that with a couple of very obvious exceptions, people are here to help in good faith.

There are no exceptions to this. EVERYONE here, even the BS's would like to see every single person who steps onto these forums recover their marriages. It is the BEST solution. It matter not whether the newbie is the betrayed spouse or the wayward spouse. Are we harder on the WS than the BS? Only initially. The wayward is so wrapped up in their pain they tend not to see the destruction around them. I know you think you do, but you truly don't get "it", not yet. Stick around and you will.

As for the exceptions you stated, I bet you are referring to "Mr. Pity Party", am I right? I am assuming you mean Gack1. You said that he doesn't know you...but here's the kicker, you don't know him either. Did you know that he was the BS? Did you know his BW left him to go to the OM? Did you know that when she returned to marriage she came back pregnant? Did you know that he is currently recovering with his WW, and proceeding to raise the OM's child as his OWN?

You will find SW, that usually when someone posts to you and you get upset, it because it has hit a raw nerve. EXPLORE that nerve. Examine WHY it hurt. Because you will find usually it hurt because it is something you need to clean up in yourself.

I will tell you this. I am the BW. So no, I don't know what you are going through, but I have said on here many times that the pain the WS causes the BS is bad enough, but the pain they cause themselves is worse.

HOWEVER....

The biggest difference in those two pains is that the pain the BS is suffering is not one they asked for. The pain the WS suffers from is self-inflicted. YOU made that choice for the pain. Your H did not.

Stick around SW.....and you could end up with an even BETTER marriage than ever.....

but not without hard work, sweat and A LOT OF TEARS.....

Not2fun
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
[quote=saddestwife]

So now I am faced with the prospect of trying to fix things without losing myself in the process. And losing my sense of self -- becoming essentially invisible in the marriage -- is the primary reason I had an affair to start with. I've read a lot about why women cheat, and in the end, at least in my case, I don't think it's rocket science. It didn't take much -- the other man was nice to me. My psychiatrist says I am like a puppy -- put out a bowl of warm milk for me and I'll love you forever.
Quote
Your prior "sense of self" depended upon your sacrifice and appearing to have no needs.
I say; "Good riddance"

There is so much truth to what Pep is saying to you here. So much.....Do you really want to return to your "old" ways? Do you really want to stay your current ways, which is an adulterous wife?

You can come out of this NEW......

As the BW, I NEVER wanted to return to my "old" ways either.....they were YUCK!!!

They made my marriage UNBEARABLE.....

I came here so broken, so bruised and injured.....but I knew that in my "healing" in never wanted to return to my former self...even IF my H did not end his affair.

Not2fun
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 05:59 PM
Quote
My first priority is my children. My H comes second. He knows it because I have told him unequivocally. I have no doubt that many members of this forum will be outraged at that. It isn�t going to change. I betrayed my children as well, and I haven't the first idea how to deal with that.

I can tell you how.....first a history lesson....

When I was 12 yrs old my mom entered into an adulterous relationship. She took us around OM quite often for 2 yrs. One day, I had an orthodonist appointment. We went to Fuddruckers for lunch afterwards. After that I wanted to go to see the science fair displays which were being held at a nearby park so I could get some EC in my physical science class. We went and they told me go on ahead and they would catch up to me. I went to the building and that section was closed. I didn't know ahead of time the scheduling, so this wasn't what I expected. I went back to the car to tell them about the closing and I found them "making out". I ran away.....there is nothing like a child finding one of their parents in the arms and kissing someone other than the other parent. It was devasting and confusing to say the least.......

So I KNOW what your children are feeling like right now....

I also know what you mean by saying you put your children ahead of your H. My mom was the same way....

But that day, she sure as he77 wasn't putting me ahead of anything. Not ahead of OM, not ahead of herself.

When you entered into your affair, you were NOT putting your children first.

You want to know how to repair that???

Well, the first thing I can tell you, is DON'T do what my mom did. Don't LIE to them. BE honest. Come clean with your children and tell them what you have done. They will be angry....the will be sad....they will be disappointed....

But they will want YOU to rise above and work on YOU and your marriage, so that one day they can say,,,,"Yeah, my mom made an awful, horrendous mistake. But she changed all of that, healed us, our dad, and herself....and for that she is our hero....."

My mom never did this SW. Eventually, the truth about mom's affairs came out. She STILL didn't clean up the mess....

And when my H had his affair....she flat out told me "If the man loved his wife the way Christ loved the church, NO WOMAN would ever stray.....". She still believes my dad treatment of her CAUSED her affair. Of course, it wasn't that way in MY situation according to her, but the damage was done....

I am no longer in a relationship with my mom. I do not see her for holidays, birthdays, let alone the mother-daughter shopping, spa time, ect.

So, if you WANT to heal your children, first you need to heal yourself and your H.......the marriage.

For the first time, put your H ahead of your children.....because HONESTLY, you've been putting your children ahead of him for a long time, and that hasn't worked for you yet......

Not2fun
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 06:31 PM
Quote
� The business about the �Giver� and the �Taker� is dead on, and really gets back to my original point � if I have forfeited my right to set any boundaries which is what I am hearing, how can any sort of balance ever be restored?

You must have boundaries.
A good mother models good healthy boundaries for her children.

Your H may be more receptive to the start of healthy boundary building if he also joins MB.
Why don't you tell him about this site, and ask him to post, to identify himself as your H.

If he starts to post, it is BEST if you stay OFF each other's threads.

The forum members will bust his chops for you, especially about things such as name calling. He can say you are an adulterous wife, but he cannot call a c***.
A word I personally abhor.

In the meanwhile, if he starts in on the name calling, ask him to write it down and you can read it later. If he does not stop, walk away.

Meanwhile, please take my advice to download the questionnaires I suggested.

It will help both of you begin a healthier dialogue.
It will help you define your boundaries.

About your friends. If they were on your side about your adultery, they have to go.
Toxic friends support unhealthy choices.
I created a boundary after my H's A about a certain friend who knew about the A, and told my H stories about how great his own extramarital A's made him feel.
In other words, he was a pig.


As a Mom, you know what I mean, right? If you see your child hanging out with the wrong sort of kids, you disallow that, as much as you can, right?

Step one:
Download the questionnaires.
Do EN first.
Share with your H.
He shares with you.

Then, a few days later, do the love buster questionnaires (gender specific).

These are FREE TOOLS.
Pick them up and USE them!

Ask your H to join the forum.
hug




Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 06:39 PM
I don't agree with you that everyone here is operating in good faith -- see justlooking24's post:

"Google "The Other Woman" That's a site that will support and "lurve" you and help you justify your despicable actions.
Your husband deserves better."

That was clearly not meant to be helpful, and is in fact antagonistic. Whatever -- if it made him/her feel better, fine.

I was taken aback yesterday because I was surprised at the intensity of the reaction to my post but I don't really care what the people on this site think -- I was a trial lawyer for many years and have been vilified by professionals. This is amateur stuff. I do care deeply about trying to address the issues I have in the M with my H, but if you all are this reactive to any sort of explanation of those issues, I can only imagine how he is going to react.

I think maybe I don't want to hear what is really being said here which is that all pre-A issues are barred, like a statute of limitations, because there is no way to address them with without without being perceived as making excuses or justifying my decision. The consistent response from posters has been that what I perceive as a description of an issue is received as a justification. I refuse to try to excuse my behavior. I wanted to look into the why of things with him, but maybe that isn't possible. What I still don't understand though how you can fix what isn't addressed.

I've addressed the A on a very basic level with my two oldest children. I don't think it would be helpful to go into detail. My youngest refuses to talk about it until H and I are both there. I respect his boundary and am not going to force it, although I have said a little bit about where I am emotionally, and I did that because I have been a train wreck and in the absence of another explanation kids will blame themselves. I wanted to let him off the hook, and he perked up considerably after our conversation.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 06:49 PM
Have you spoken to your physician about your depression?
Do you need a medication adjustment?
Have you been diagnosed with any psychiatric illness?

Have you been tested for STDs?
I'd advise you to do this STD screening voluntarily, before your H asks you to do it.

Was OM married?

The person who suggested "the other woman site" is a noobie. That's what noobs do. They react.
Look at registration date and total number of posts ( 48 posts since 2008 ) if that helps you decide who might have more experience with MB concepts.




Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:00 PM
Quote
I think maybe I don't want to hear what is really being said here which is that all pre-A issues are barred, like a statute of limitations, because there is no way to address them with without without being perceived as making excuses or justifying my decision. The consistent response from posters has been that what I perceive as a description of an issue is received as a justification. I refuse to try to excuse my behavior. I wanted to look into the why of things with him, but maybe that isn't possible. What I still don't understand though how you can fix what isn't addressed.

Gawd! You ARE a trial lawyer, aren't you rotflmao

Pre-A issues are off the table AT THIS TIME.

It's like triage.
There is a man hemorrhaging.
Now is not the time to bring up his past crappy husband behavior.

Yes, he owns one half of the pre-A mess.
So do you.

But you are in the ER, trying to stop the bleeding.

Please, believe me, he is in no shape at this time to listen to what he did wrong in the past, he's had all the air sucked out of his lungs and he can't breathe without pain.

Give it a few months.
Can you wait that long?

The questionnaires will START the process.
But, you will need to repeat them in a few months, once your H can breathe without pain. His responses might be different. Yours too.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.
You cannot rush the process.
The time to address past crappy behaviors is not now.

Do you believe me?
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:01 PM
Quote
I think maybe I don't want to hear what is really being said here which is that all pre-A issues are barred, like a statute of limitations, because there is no way to address them with without without being perceived as making excuses or justifying my decision. The consistent response from posters has been that what I perceive as a description of an issue is received as a justification. I refuse to try to excuse my behavior. I wanted to look into the why of things with him, but maybe that isn't possible. What I still don't understand though how you can fix what isn't addressed.

What you need to do is work on today. Other than violence or his cheating or something of that nature, talking about the past right now only gets in the way and is easy to use as an excuse even though you say it is not, it certainly sounds like one. What you are trying to do here is heal a wound you made, create boundaries for yourself to stop any chance of it happening again, find out what will make your H feel loved and love in return and find that out about yourself. Once you do all that then you do not need what happened before. It was a bad marriage. Let it go and create a new, good marriage. As I said before, it does not matter what he did or what it was like there are better alternatives and less hurtful ones than having an A. You chose the A and that is all that matters at this point. You start here and move forward.
Posted By: PhoenixRising65 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:22 PM
SW, no one here wants you to give and leave here. Please stay, I know that you have been getting 2x4'd a lot. No one here is mad at you they are just trying to help you. Stay and you will find in the months down the road when things start clearing from your mind that the things that you wrote now show how foggy you really are. If you don't want to take the advice of the BS thenlisten to the former waywards. They can show you what to do.

Buy and read Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs. Do what it says and get your H to read it too. Get him to come here too, sounds like he could use this site too.

No one here expects you to put up with abuse. But if the only thing he is doing now is ranting and raving and yelling, that is normal. My H returned home 5 months after he left me for the OW. Over the past 6 months I have gone off several times and it wasn't pretty. I yelled and said some pretty ugly words and he took every bit of it. I still go off when he does something stupid but I am a lot calmer about it now. He still doesn't understand even though he says he does because he is still foggy. I know that one day soon he will come out of it and you will too, but that will take a while.

Now is the time for you to not only work on your marriage but to work on you too. Your H should be number one in your life not your children. If you work on your M then your children will see this and this will help them too.

Good luck,SW. Stay on there and things will get better. It is a long hard road but worth it in the end.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
� �Giving the gory details�. There are two schools of thought on whether this is a good idea or not. I�m not sure what I think, but to date he hasn�t asked. It may be incumbent on me to bring this up at some point in order to completely address the A rather than sweeping it under the rug. I also think that under the circumstances, those discussions should be with our counselor present.

There might be "two schools of thought" but there is only one RIGHT school of thought. And that is complete and total honesty. This is information about your husbands life to which he is entitled. HONESTY is the solution to adultery, not more deceit. So, if he needs to be in the presence of a 3rd party to hear the truth, then so be it. Honesty is an essential step for recovery and you won't recover your marriage as long as you and your adultery partner have secrets to which your H is not privy.

Quote
� The �could you be more dramatic� comment. Yes, I sure could. I could actually kill myself. I was suicidal in 2007, and my initial posting turns on my concern about that.

How about lets cut the drama queen act? This helps nothing. You are not a victim, Madam, you are the perp. If you feel suicidal then go to the hospital. But you won't get any sympathy here by playing the suicide card. Our sympathy is reserved for your victims.

You need to lose the pity party if this is going to work. Rest assured that stunt won't work here.


Quote
� Pointing out to me that I put myself in this position is simply not helpful. I get it.

Guess who is the LEAST qualified person on this thread to say what is or isn't helpful? It is the lady in the mirror. You let US decide what is helpful. Your best thinking screwed up your marriage; we have saved ours. Let us be the judge of what is "helpful."

saddestwife, people here want to help you but you are going to have put aside the defensiveness and the self pity if you want help. We are always willing to help, but no one is going to help you remain foggy and self pitying so you need to knock that crap off right now. Like they told me when I arrived in AA, all foggy and hostile:

Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth....

I can't think of more appropriate advice for you.

Now welcome to Marriage Builders. smile Are you ready to listen?

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I think maybe I don't want to hear what is really being said here which is that all pre-A issues are barred, like a statute of limitations, because there is no way to address them with without without being perceived as making excuses or justifying my decision. The consistent response from posters has been that what I perceive as a description of an issue is received as a justification. I refuse to try to excuse my behavior. I wanted to look into the why of things with him, but maybe that isn't possible. What I still don't understand though how you can fix what isn't addressed.

Part of recovery is addressing the problems in the marriage that led to the affair, you are right about that. For example, your practice of giving [we call that sacrifice] is probably one of the most destructive practices in marriages. It leads to affairs, as you have discovered. The thinking goes something like this: "I have given and given and now it is my turn to get!!" All that noble "giving" leads to a taker monster with a hellacious entitlement mentality. That is exactly what happened to you.

So yes, that behavior will have to be addressed in addition to your poor boundaries that made the affair possible.

However, the bulk of recovery is focused on changing current behaviors in order to create a romantic relationship. The goal with our program is not just peaceful co-existance, but romantic love. Dr. Harley desribes it here:

Originally Posted by Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
here
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

Saddest,
-Have you ordered "Surviving an Affair"? (Yes or no.)
-What would you say are the top 3 things your husband needs from you now? (Assuming you're going about this right, you should have at least a draft mental list ready.)

Saddest, I don't think anyone is here for free entertainment, and none of us are getting paid for whatever advice we offer. I've been pecking around this site for 11 months; in that time, I recall exactly 2 posters whom I'd classify as "sick souls", and neither of them have posted on your thread.

You're right, we are amateurs. What brings people to this site is the fact that most of the people here have lived a combined world of pain, and some of us (like you & me, for instance) have caused a lot of that pain, and we don't want people to make the mistakes we or our spouses made. There is a world of experience here, experience that we all wish we never had. That experience makes us able to distinguish sound advice -- delivered, sometimes sugar-coated, sometimes sarcastically or abrasively, I'll admit -- from actual "gratuitous cruelty" (as in, "I, GloveOil, was gratuitously cruel to my wife when I conducted an affair behind her back for over 2 months.").

Saving a marriage takes a thick skin. (Most of the trial lawyers I've known seem to have it... what about you?). We need to be able to look ourselves in the mirror and see and acknowledge our deepest flaws & selfishness. We need to drop our defensive armor. We want to be trusted by our spouses again, so we need to commit shocking, gratuitous acts of trust, by placing our hearts into their hands, for them to reject or, with time, to re-accept. We need to resist the urge to parry every harsh word with a counter-argument or with assertions that cast aspersion upon the credibility of anyone who might offer criticism. We need to focus on saving our marriages, and we need to be open to considering ways in which we might need to change the way we look at things, the way we look at ourselves, and the ways we communicate with our spouses.

I asked you 2 questions at the start of my post here. This isn't a cross-examination, and I hope you'll not mistake it as such, but I would be interested in your answers.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:56 PM
Once you have taken ownership of your poor boundaries which led to the affair and have covered all the points listed in Lurioosi's first post to you. You will be able to work on creating a romantic relationship.

Me - FWW, my H currently taking a perpetrators of abuse course.

I'm pleased that you have stayed. There are lots of people here to help you. You know form your work with abused women that you do not have to tolerate the abuse from your H. Just has he has the right to show you his lack of tolerance for the A by moving on.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:56 PM
Wow, Melodylane, really? Being mindful of safeguarding my mental health in light of my history is a "pity party"? Articulating that concern and asking for help in how to set some boundaries so I don't actually end up in the hospital is a "stunt"? Your answer is -- well, now that I look back on your post, you suggest nothing.

I wasn't asking for nor do I want your pity or sympathy, nor do I pity myself. I put myself in this situation and I am prepared to take the consequences up to, but not including, returning to the suicidal level of 2007. I may be the "perp" but I'm still a human being. What do you want? A public flogging?

I can't stop you from posting here, but I am going to respectfully ask that you not. In fact, I don't think you should post anywhere -- anyone who is as flippant and dismissive of talk of suicide is flat dangerous. You won't send me over the edge -- but you might send someone else over.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 07:57 PM
I ended my A. Like you I couldn't be doing with the stress of it really and the guilt. Don't think I was able to admit the reason for ending it when I first came here. So good on you for being honest.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Wow, Melodylane, really? Being mindful of safeguarding my mental health in light of my history is a "pity party"? Articulating that concern and asking for help in how to set some boundaries so I don't actually end up in the hospital is a "stunt"? Your answer is -- well, now that I look back on your post, you suggest nothing.

Suggestion: instead of playing the suicide card, why not call 911? Its not going to generate sympathy here so there is no reason to continually play it.

We all know that people who are serious don't use it to pander sympathy, they just do it.

And no, I decline your invitation to post elsewhere. But I will report your suicide threats to the moderators because they have been known to lock down a thread and refer a person to the suicide hotline when appropriate.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Wow, Melodylane, really? Being mindful of safeguarding my mental health in light of my history is a "pity party"? Articulating that concern and asking for help in how to set some boundaries so I don't actually end up in the hospital is a "stunt"? Your answer is -- well, now that I look back on your post, you suggest nothing.

I wasn't asking for nor do I want your pity or sympathy, nor do I pity myself. I put myself in this situation and I am prepared to take the consequences up to, but not including, returning to the suicidal level of 2007. I may be the "perp" but I'm still a human being. What do you want? A public flogging?

I can't stop you from posting here, but I am going to respectfully ask that you not. In fact, I don't think you should post anywhere -- anyone who is as flippant and dismissive of talk of suicide is flat dangerous. You won't send me over the edge -- but you might send someone else over.

saddestwife,

THIS is exactly when you need to stop and pay attention. You do not like what Melody said but she is not the only one who has said it. I think for most people that would be a smack upside the head that we need to pay attention to what we are being told. As nasty as this may sound to you, and I do not mean it to be so, you do not get to make the recovery rules nor do you get to guide the advice given you. We call em as we see em and we have seen many just like you. Mel is one of the best here, she pulls no punches because nobody coming here for help will benefit from pulled punches. If you can't take the heat then you will not benefit from the advice. Please listen to the posts that make you the angriest, they may be just what you need to consider the most. We all get them, BS and WS alike and they are directions to move us into positive territory. None of us are children who need to be handled with so much care. If you are that close to the edge you should not be here now but in a facility to stabilize you first. It is understandable that you might be feeling that way.

You can do this but you need to back down, give yourself up and listen.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:13 PM
I have three books on the topic, Surviving the Affair and two others. I don't want to read them in front of my H which is problematic as he is signaling strongly right now that he doesn't want to talk about it. Since my number one goal is to not inflict any more pain, I am respecting that. If someone has another view, please tell me.

My H needs to feel safe, he needs to know that nothing he can do or say is going to run me off, and he needs me to be emotionally present and available. I'm doing well on two out of three -- the second one being the issue as I historically avoid conflict (strange for a trial lawyer). I'm not saying that he can run me off -- I'm saying that he doesn't know he can't so expressing his feelings (except when he erupts or makes a cutting comment) doesn't feel safe to him. Today we are in the avoid the whole subject and have lots of sex stage.

My strategy today is simply to express to him how incredibly grateful I am to him for being willing to try to save the marriage. And I am.

What else should I be doing?
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:22 PM

Quote
My strategy today is simply to express to him how incredibly grateful I am to him for being willing to try to save the marriage. And I am.

This is a great start.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:29 PM
Quote
What else should I be doing?

The questionnaires !
toe tap
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:30 PM
Do what you like. I haven't threatened suicide nor am I feeling suicidal. I see a psychiatrist regularly and I am not depressed. I'm not looking for sympathy. Telling me I'm having a pity party or whatever, even if its true, doesn't tell me anything useful. Being willing to listen to melodylane or whoever doesn't make any difference if they aren't saying anything concrete. I'm not mad at melodylane -- I sincerely believe she is dangerous.

I get it -- I'm the "perp" and my concern about my mental health is by definition invalid, a play for sympathy, whatever.

Probably I should just leave the forum, but I do find some people have very helpful things to say.
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:30 PM
SW:

As WWs go you are among the most promising I have seen in the forum. You are doing fine!!!!!

You sound a lot like my wife, who got caught instead of confessing.

Keep up the SF with H.

The 2X4s you get are to help you.

CIAO
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:32 PM
Read the books now.
In front of your H, or not.
I doubt he will object to some self help on your part.
As long as you do not pressure him to do the same.

From the sound of it, you will need to take the lead.
At least for now.

BH will probably sneak a peek at what you are reading when you aren't looking.

Honesty ... In all you do.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
What else should I be doing?

You need to be reading, SW. Read those things that everyone has suggested here, but start with the links on the MB main page. The people who are upsetting you are telling you the truth, not trying to harm you or get you to harm yourself. I know where your head is. I was a serial wayward of the worst kind and avoided confrontation and ran from emotional discomfort for years. I decided that my marriage was a boo boo, and that I needed to run somewhere and get some medicine and "make it all better." But I was the boo boo. I was also a medical professional in a high position and got used to using my head too much and my heart too little. And people always came to me for answers in my professional life. That should have tolld me that I was smart, not that I was wise. And my pride was reinforced by others and my extended family. But I was a mess for waaay longer than I needed to be, and the people here and the MB staff are helping me to see life and see my spouse in real daylight for the first time. And I like what I see about both of those things...a lot. Instead of defending yourself and how fragile you are and protesting how you might off yourself, you really should be reading and learning and preparing yourself for the biggest challenge you will ever undertake. Are you up to it? If you are doing that already, then good for you. There is no need to debate people here or approach this like you are the defendant in a criminal trial. People here are your friends. They are slapping you, like in the movies, and you are supposed to say, "Thanks. I needed that." Because you know what? You do.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 08:55 PM
I agree about reading the books. My DH went through the avoid the pain and have SF mode too. But Surviving an Affair has such wonderful tools and is such a good glimpse into the inside of all this junk. As far as suicide goes, I will tell you that two weeks after D-Day I was in the ER....and this past March I spent several days in a horrible place for the same reason. So I will not discount the reality of what you may be feeling. But the key is do not go there. Read, listen to music, write, watch Law and Order (ha ha). You haven't said if you have a specific illness, but I will tell you that I have bipolar disorder, so I know that it is something you have to stay on top of.

So, expressing appreciation to your DH is good. If you know you are STD free then coming together physically and intimately with your DH is good. Being close if good. Crying with him is good. Expressing your remorse and apology voluntarily and not just as a response is good. Keep these things in the forefront of your mind because DH will need these things for a long time.

It's also good that you are telling your kids. I do not agree with keeping this from children. Does anyone else know? Do you have any family that could support you since DH is uncomfortable with you seeing friends right now?

Recovering from an affair is like a natural disaster. Right now you are huddled in the basement waiting for the hail and wind and F5 to settle down. Then you have to climb up together, survey the damage, and clean it up bit by bit so that you can build a newer, better, more solid house in its place. It doesn't happen in a week, or a month, or even a year. But every broken piece of window, every warped piece of furniture you sift through and toss, you are making progress.

As one of my former principals would say, "It's time to put on the big girl pants and get to work."
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Gawd! You ARE a trial lawyer, aren't you rotflmao

Pre-A issues are off the table AT THIS TIME.

It's like triage.
There is a man hemorrhaging.
Now is not the time to bring up his past crappy husband behavior.

Yes, he owns one half of the pre-A mess.
So do you.

But you are in the ER, trying to stop the bleeding.

Please, believe me, he is in no shape at this time to listen to what he did wrong in the past, he's had all the air sucked out of his lungs and he can't breathe without pain.

Give it a few months.
Can you wait that long?

Excellent post Pep. As always.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Probably I should just leave the forum, but I do find some people have very helpful things to say.

Again, you are the least qualified to discern what is or isn't helpful, SW. You messed up your marriage, remember? Your best thinking got you in this mess. But if you feel your mental health is on the edge, you need to call 911 or your psychiatrist instead of posting on a marriage forum.

Or instead of being defensive and shooting at the rescue helicopters when folks point out your foggy thinking, how about paying attention to what we are telling you?

Did you read my post about what it will take for recovery? Did you read this:

Originally Posted by Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Wow, Melodylane, really? Being mindful of safeguarding my mental health in light of my history is a "pity party"? Articulating that concern and asking for help in how to set some boundaries so I don't actually end up in the hospital is a "stunt"? Your answer is -- well, now that I look back on your post, you suggest nothing.

I wasn't asking for nor do I want your pity or sympathy, nor do I pity myself. I put myself in this situation and I am prepared to take the consequences up to, but not including, returning to the suicidal level of 2007. I may be the "perp" but I'm still a human being. What do you want? A public flogging?

I can't stop you from posting here, but I am going to respectfully ask that you not. In fact, I don't think you should post anywhere -- anyone who is as flippant and dismissive of talk of suicide is flat dangerous. You won't send me over the edge -- but you might send someone else over.

First of all I'd like to say to everyone...it is freaking me out that you are all calling her SW----*I* am SW!!! rotflmao

Ok, now that I got that off my chest.....Saddestwife, Have you noticed the post count of MelodyLane? Or how long she has been here? If you stick around and humble yourself, there will be a day in a few months that you will be amazed that you once told her to stay off your thread. She knows A LOT about MB principles and if you will listen to her she can help you.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 09:52 PM
I read it. I've read every website I can find on the subject.

My best thinking didn't get me into this mess. My worst thinking did. Or, to be more accurate, my failure to think. I know I'm not making good decisions right now, so I'm deciding as little as is humanly possible. I don't trust myself or my judgement in the slightest.

I never said my mental health is on edge. I said I was afraid it might come to that point, and asked for help on how to set some boundaries so I don't get to that place. I don't get how that is a play for sympathy or whatever but I also don't care much whether you think it is or not. Telling me that tells me nothing concrete that has any relevance to what I am trying to accomplish. If I were saying to my H "oh please spare me from your rage as I am too emotionally fragile to take it and I might off myself" then yes, that would be an issue. But I'm not.

I don't find your comments on this point helpful because I don't understand their relevance. If I don't understand what is being said, it is by definition not helpful.

And I do think your aggressiveness is dangerous and your carelessness in reading what is written before you address the subject frightening -- you weren't responding to what I wrote. You were responding to what you decided I wrote. The same response with the same tone to someone else who was actually threatening suicide could be the trigger. I have experienced the impact of suicide first hand on two occasions. Some people just do it, but some people talk a lot about it first. There are no rules.

The response that I did find very helpful was to focus on today. That I can do.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
IMy best thinking didn't get me into this mess. My worst thinking did. Or, to be more accurate, my failure to think. I know I'm not making good decisions right now, so I'm deciding as little as is humanly possible. I don't trust myself or my judgement in the slightest.

That is about the first thing you have said that we can agree on. Realization that your judgment is seriously impaired should be a consideration when you imagine you are qualified to decide what is "helpful" and what is not.

My so called "agressiveness" is hardly "dangerous" compared to the destruction you have reaped on your poor husband, so please lets lose the melodramatics...

Now, how about letting US - the non foggy recovered people - decide what is "helpful" and what is not and get back to the business of repairing the damage you caused?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 11:25 PM
melodylane, I may take issue with your approach -- abrasive/aggressive behavior is not a style that is ever going to be effective with me. Ever. I was a trial lawyer for a too many years and learned early on to ignore those people. All bluster, no substance, a bunch of adult bullies. People with something real and meaningful to say do not have to employ those tactics to get their positions heard and adopted -- the content of their communication does all the work. But that's only how I react. I'm sure there are any number of people who have reaped great benefits from your posts and I mean that sincerely. But I'm not one of them, and never will be. I respond to reason and logic. I respond to concreteness and direction. I respond to caring correction and positive reinforcement. I respond to people with ideas, not people with an agenda. I want help developing a plan and support when it falters -- and it will. This is not a 10K, its a marathon, and I know what that means because I have been a distance runner my whole life. If you spend it all in the first 5 miles, you got no hope. You have to have a plan for the whole race, and be ready when it rains, the water stop is out of water, you get a blister, etc. There are other posters who seem to know where the bandaids and the water stops are. I'm listening to them. I'm not listening to you because the content of your message has no meaning for me.

It's telling that you STILL can't explain to me why you characterize my concern as a pity party/bid for sympathy or how that could possibly be relevant to what I am trying to accomplish. I can only conclude you are trying to make me feel bad for the sake of making me feel bad which isn't remotely helpful. I already feel bad. Guilt and shame are only useful emotions when they serve as a motivation for positive change. Wallowing in them and dwelling on them is both self indulgent and counter productive. I want to use my guilt and shame to try to heal the damage I've caused and create a better me and a better M. You can tell me all day long that I'm off base about that and I will tell you unequivocally that you are flat wrong.

That said, I don't think you are an evil person. I don't think you want to be even tangentially involved in someone's decision to commit suicide. I believe that if you were to find that your conduct factored into such a decision you would be devastated. I don't think you have the faintest idea how risky your behavior on this point is. You are speaking anonymously in an emotionally charged forum to people you don't know. Your style is aggressive/abrasive. You may be an expert on MB, but you aren't an expert on suicide. Neither am I, but I know enough to know it is not a subject to be trifled with or taken lightly.

Comparing "the destruction you have reaped on your poor husband" with your risky behavior on this point is nonsensical -- the two have nothing to do with each other. It's like comparing a mountain and an ocean. There is no logic in such a statement.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 11:29 PM
Thats nice, SW. Now, would you like to get down to business here? Complaining about my "approach" is a distraction.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
. I respond to people with ideas, not people with an agenda. I want help developing a plan and support when it falters -- and it will.

Speaking of which, I have TWICE posted a plan but you haven't responded. Did you read it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 11:34 PM
Reposting:


Originally Posted by Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
Posted By: shaken Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/10/10 11:41 PM
Quote
melodylane, I may take issue with your approach -- abrasive/aggressive behavior is not a style that is ever going to be effective with me. Ever. I was a trial lawyer for a too many years and learned early on to ignore those people. All bluster, no substance, a bunch of adult bullies. People with something real and meaningful to say do not have to employ those tactics to get their positions heard and adopted -- the content of their communication does all the work. But that's only how I react. I'm sure there are any number of people who have reaped great benefits from your posts and I mean that sincerely. But I'm not one of them, and never will be. I respond to reason and logic. I respond to concreteness and direction. I respond to caring correction and positive reinforcement. I respond to people with ideas, not people with an agenda. I want help developing a plan and support when it falters -- and it will. This is not a 10K, its a marathon, and I know what that means because I have been a distance runner my whole life. If you spend it all in the first 5 miles, you got no hope. You have to have a plan for the whole race, and be ready when it rains, the water stop is out of water, you get a blister, etc. There are other posters who seem to know where the bandaids and the water stops are. I'm listening to them. I'm not listening to you because the content of your message has no meaning for me.

It's telling that you STILL can't explain to me why you characterize my concern as a pity party/bid for sympathy or how that could possibly be relevant to what I am trying to accomplish. I can only conclude you are trying to make me feel bad for the sake of making me feel bad which isn't remotely helpful. I already feel bad. Guilt and shame are only useful emotions when they serve as a motivation for positive change. Wallowing in them and dwelling on them is both self indulgent and counter productive. I want to use my guilt and shame to try to heal the damage I've caused and create a better me and a better M. You can tell me all day long that I'm off base about that and I will tell you unequivocally that you are flat wrong.

That said, I don't think you are an evil person. I don't think you want to be even tangentially involved in someone's decision to commit suicide. I believe that if you were to find that your conduct factored into such a decision you would be devastated. I don't think you have the faintest idea how risky your behavior on this point is. You are speaking anonymously in an emotionally charged forum to people you don't know. Your style is aggressive/abrasive. You may be an expert on MB, but you aren't an expert on suicide. Neither am I, but I know enough to know it is not a subject to be trifled with or taken lightly.

Comparing "the destruction you have reaped on your poor husband" with your risky behavior on this point is nonsensical -- the two have nothing to do with each other. It's like comparing a mountain and an ocean. There is no logic in such a statement.

Wow somebody ressurrect Johnny Cochran..MelodyLane is on trial...whoa. You may not like her approach,but MelodyLane has helped many many people. Maybe you don't like her approach because I see the same abrasive/aggressiveness in you. Please..humble yourself and listen. You won't regret it.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 12:01 AM
Saddest,

Ok, Counselor let�s get down to business shall we? First let me address what you just posted to Mel. You said
Quote
melodylane, I may take issue with your approach -- abrasive/aggressive behavior is not a style that is ever going to be effective with me. Ever. I was a trial lawyer for a too many years and learned early on to ignore those people. All bluster, no substance, a bunch of adult bullies. People with something real and meaningful to say do not have to employ those tactics to get their positions heard and adopted -- the content of their communication does all the work.
So I could summarize by saying you don�t like to be told what to do? Am I correct? You may not realize it but what Mel is telling you is REAL and it is MEANINGFUL. Whether she has a style you like is of little concern when compared to your issue of trying to rebuild a marriage now is it? My I suggest, that you listen to her. I will also note that while many have posted to you and offered advice, your only responses have been to defend yourself and NOT question or even acknowledge what people have suggested to you. Which further suggests, that you don�t do well with being told �how the cow ate the cabbage� and you don�t do well with suggestions either. So please enlighten me, does kissing your feet and bowing to you work for you? What form of interaction works, because I can assure you that your method of posting is not going to help your H much, it sounds too much like a pity party and too much like rationalization.



Quote
But that's only how I react. I'm sure there are any number of people who have reaped great benefits from your posts and I mean that sincerely. But I'm not one of them, and never will be. I respond to reason and logic.
With all due respect to the many lawyers on this site, since when has reason and logic been a main staple of your profession? And exactly how did you reason and logic your way into an affair? I am sure your H will be very impressed with your reason and logic, when you explain it all to him. You don�t really seem to be listening to reason and logic. A �reasonable� person would look at all of the posts to you and conclude that there is a �failure to communicate�. That all of us see something in your posts that strongly suggests that you are whinning and rationalizing rather than truly serious about recovery because Saddest recovery is NOT going to be on YOUR TERMS. You need to figure that one out soon.



Quote
I respond to concreteness and direction. I respond to caring correction and positive reinforcement. I respond to people with ideas, not people with an agenda. I want help developing a plan and support when it falters -- and it will. This is not a 10K, its a marathon, and I know what that means because I have been a distance runner my whole life. If you spend it all in the first 5 miles, you got no hope. You have to have a plan for the whole race, and be ready when it rains, the water stop is out of water, you get a blister, etc. There are other posters who seem to know where the bandaids and the water stops are. I'm listening to them. I'm not listening to you because the content of your message has no meaning for me.
Interesting lecture to a bunch of people with far more experience than you and who have lived through this on one side or another. Mel has an agenda and you better bet I do as well as everyone that is posting to you, but you don�t seem to realize what it is. OUR agenda is to help you save your marriage, pure and simple.

Quote
It's telling that you STILL can't explain to me why you characterize my concern as a pity party/bid for sympathy or how that could possibly be relevant to what I am trying to accomplish. I can only conclude you are trying to make me feel bad for the sake of making me feel bad which isn't remotely helpful.
Ok, I said it in an earlier post, I will say it again, we are on you and Mel particularly is on you because your posts make it sound like a pity party. Wake up if strangers are picking that up how do you think your H is going to respond????? Our goal is to get you to quit the self-defense, quit the justications, quit sounding pitiful, and start to actually interact with people in a positive way so that you can be helped. Your conclusions about Mel are based on an erroneous assumption. She is pointing as I am and others that you sound just like many WS� that come here initially. Quit arguing with her and listen, she is trying to help and whether you like her style or not, that is the goal. You might not like my style either but the purpose here is to get you to start realize that there are things YOU must do or you will cripple your chances of true recovery of your marriage. You clearly haven�t pickup that the goal here isn�t just to save your marriage, it is to help you and your H build it into something better and that takes more plasticity of mind than you have demonstrated so far.

Quote
That said, I don't think you are an evil person. I don't think you want to be even tangentially involved in someone's decision to commit suicide. I believe that if you were to find that your conduct factored into such a decision you would be devastated. I don't think you have the faintest idea how risky your behavior on this point is. You are speaking anonymously in an emotionally charged forum to people you don't know. Your style is aggressive/abrasive. You may be an expert on MB, but you aren't an expert on suicide. Neither am I, but I know enough to know it is not a subject to be trifled with or taken lightly
. Saddest you have mentioned suicide several times in this thread and each and every time people have told you the same thing. Call 911 if you are seriously thinking about this, seek counseling if you are serious about these thoughts and quit posting here until you have addressed these thoughts. You come back that you are not but it is possible. Now tell me how are we to interpret your statements with suicide? Mel calls that a pity party since you won�t seek help for it. I call it trying to defend yourself in a losing argument �I�ll take my ball and go home and kill myself.�

Saddest, we all know suicide is very serious. If you really have these thoughts seek professional help NOW! Am I clear? It should be clear to the meagerest of minds that people posting here are not suicide prevention folks. But it also seems that you use it as a threat whenever people start to really talk to you. Mel isn�t trying to make you feel guilty, she is trying to get you from guilt to remorse, true remorse where you take full responsibility for your actions by learning how to address your marriage issues.

You want guidance you have it, and the articles will provide even more. You want clarification on things, then ask for it, but quit wasting time playing pity/pat with Mel and the rest. The plans and information here works, but only when you become �radically honest� with yourself.

I really hate posting like this, because I doubt its affectiveness, but it needs to be said and I sure will say it if I feel it needs to be said. Been here a long time and frankly you are not unique and I hate to see you waste valuable time and opportunities sparing with those that are trying to help you.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 12:18 AM
I may have missed something, but is your husband here, yet? I believe that was the first piece of advice we gave you.

You asked for help ... are you going to accept the help that is offered, or keep saying mean things to the people who are trying to help you?

Talk is cheap, you know.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 12:21 AM
Saddest, are you ready to do something to help yourself and your marriage, or are you just here to talk at this point?

Let me know when you're ready to do something; I'll be back at that point.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by shaken
Wow somebody ressurrect Johnny Cochran..MelodyLane is on trial...whoa. You may not like her approach,but MelodyLane has helped many many people. Maybe you don't like her approach because I see the same abrasive/aggressiveness in you. Please..humble yourself and listen. You won't regret it.

SW, you have been told several times to humble yourself and listen. Most of your replies have been defensive and seriously lacking in humility.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have three books on the topic, Surviving the Affair and two others. I don't want to read them in front of my H which is problematic as he is signaling strongly right now that he doesn't want to talk about it. Since my number one goal is to not inflict any more pain, I am respecting that. If someone has another view, please tell me.

My H needs to feel safe, he needs to know that nothing he can do or say is going to run me off, and he needs me to be emotionally present and available. I'm doing well on two out of three -- the second one being the issue as I historically avoid conflict (strange for a trial lawyer). I'm not saying that he can run me off -- I'm saying that he doesn't know he can't so expressing his feelings (except when he erupts or makes a cutting comment) doesn't feel safe to him. Today we are in the avoid the whole subject and have lots of sex stage.

My strategy today is simply to express to him how incredibly grateful I am to him for being willing to try to save the marriage. And I am.

What else should I be doing?

Saddest, who knows of the affair? (Besides you & H & OM?)

Are you & your H seeking out marriage counseling? (I ask this with some hesitation, because from what I've read, many if not most marriage counselors aren't worth the paper their diplomas are printed on.) My wife & I simply lucked into a good one.

It seems to me that you & your H could use someone to help moderate your convesations about the affair & your marriage & needs & feelings toward one another. Have you considered contacting the Harleys? (My wife & I did not use them, but everyone here says they're good.)

Also, do you have a couple (in which both of you trust both of the other people to have your interests & the interests of your marriage at heart) whom the two of you could confide in together? Folks like those are hard to find -- chances are, you eaither have friends like this or you don't -- but if you do, lean on them. Your husband needs empathy from a good man, and you need someone (female!) whom you can confide in but who'll help hold you accountable. This marital recovery business seems like it would be much, much harder to pull off when one has no real-life support network. How do things look for you in this area?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:15 AM
I am going to be as clear as I know how to be on the suicide point, and then I hope the issue can be dropped.

I am not suicidal.

I have been suicidal.

The collective group knows way more about how to fix my marriage than I do.

I know way more about being suicidal than you do.

I am not asking for advice on this point. I am giving it.

And here is my advice: it is a delicate situation, you have no way of knowing what impact your words, however right or well intentioned you might be, might have on the person. Don't take it lightly, consider the worst case scenario when addressing this person and be extremely careful and moderate in how you address them.

Because YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ARE GOING TO REACT. There is a tipping point. In my case, it was something relatively innocuous relative to everything else that was going on, but when I tipped, it was done. You can't know the tipping point. But have the humility to know that you can't know.

That's it.

I'm unclear on why my discussion of my fear that I would return to that place triggered such a reaction, but it did. Just please, please, be careful.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:17 AM
So we need to tiptoe around you and not stress your wayward mind, or else you might get suicidal?

That is the undertone I am seeing.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Because YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ARE GOING TO REACT. There is a tipping point. In my case, it was something relatively innocuous relative to everything else that was going on, but when I tipped, it was done. You can't know the tipping point. But have the humility to know that you can't know

Interesting that you are telling people here to be humble. It is what we keep suggesting to you.

No one here wants to 'tip' anyone toward suicide. As was mentioned earlier this is not a suicide hot line. Since you aren't suicidal I don't really see what the problem is.

Maybe more distraction to keep yourself from listening to the suggestions and ACTING on them.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:21 AM
We do have a MC that we both very much like. He is NOT in favor of telling all the gory details, but he is a very quick study. The problem is that travel schedules have made it impossible to gain any traction. A session every so often isn't going to do it.

I like the idea of a couple we could at least go out with. I'll think on it.

He will not come to this site. He is humiliated by the whole thing and there is no way he will talk about it privately, much less publicly.

He has been reconnecting with friends he hasn't seen in years which I am delighted about.

Sometime in the next couple of days I am going to post my strategy. I want your input.

You guys might want to think about cutting me the tiniest little bit of slack. I went to bed Thursday night white knuckling it on the no contact thing and woke up Friday morning at 3:30 thinking "oh dear God, what I have I done." I'm a quick learner, but....
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You guys might want to think about cutting me the tiniest little bit of slack. I went to bed Thursday night white knuckling it on the no contact thing and woke up Friday morning at 3:30 thinking "oh dear God, what I have I done." I'm a quick learner, but....

We all know it is hard to get through the first few weeks of no contact. Everyone here truly does want you to succeed.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

Darn - golf UA time with H today and I missed all of this. SW, the poorest decision you made in your adult life was to have your A. Don't compound that by leaving here, a place that can help you change your M. Stay.

I'll keep reading. I hope you stayed! (Or come back.)
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I am going to be as clear as I know how to be on the suicide point, and then I hope the issue can be dropped.

I am not suicidal.

I have been suicidal.


Then you might want to stop redirecting the conversation to this topic and start answering the questions asked of you.



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The collective group knows way more about how to fix my marriage than I do.


Yes, they do.



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I know way more about being suicidal than you do.


You have NO FREAKIN' IDEA how much we here know about suicide.

You have no idea how many of us have been on the brink in our darks days after finding out about our spouse's affair.

You have no idea how many of us have buried friends who have committed suicide....some because of the adultery committed against them.



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I am not asking for advice on this point. I am giving it.

And here is my advice: it is a delicate situation, you have no way of knowing what impact your words, however right or well intentioned you might be, might have on the person. Don't take it lightly, consider the worst case scenario when addressing this person and be extremely careful and moderate in how you address them.


Please stop talking down to us as if we are clueless to suicide and you are "the expert".

I've stood at the edge in my dark days.

And I buried a friend just months ago who couldn't face her dark days after her D-Day.


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Because YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ARE GOING TO REACT. There is a tipping point. In my case, it was something relatively innocuous relative to everything else that was going on, but when I tipped, it was done. You can't know the tipping point. But have the humility to know that you can't know.


You are brand new here, know nothing about the people and the knowledge and experience they have to share, and YOU preach humility????

There is much help here for you when you are ready to stop this drama and start doing the work that will help both your husband and you.


My suggestion to you is to apologize for being so condescending toward us about this topic as if you are the only person here who has faced this. EVERY FREAKIN' betrayed spouse has faced the "can I make it through this next minute"?

Then I would start reading what has been suggested to you and start answering questions.

Listening with a humble, teachable heart is how you learn to come through this. The people here can lead you out of your fog...when you want to come out of it.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The gratuitous cruelty on this website is indefensible - sorry smiling woman - I'm not sticking around to be "broken" for your and your buddies entertainment.

Some of you had great thinfs to say that helped me clarify and I thank you. It is quite clear who wanted to sincerely help no matter how hard their worda are to read. It is also easy to identify the sick souls who get off on other peoples pain.

I am so out of here

Do you really think you've got enough info about us to make that decision? Really?

Don't throw away this lifeline, SW. Okay, I'll tell you right now - you sound hurt. As well you should - you've really damaged yourself by having an A. You also sound foggy - I'm hearing justification for an A all over your post. And there IS no reason to have an A.

You're going to get some 2X4s that are NOT intended to beat you up - they're intended to HELP you. Read what we say, follow what we say and heal your M.

BTW - welcome. I am impressed that you came here. Please, stay and learn.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:01 AM
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My first priority is my children. My H comes second. He knows it because I have told him unequivocally. I have no doubt that many members of this forum will be outraged at that. It isn�t going to change. I betrayed my children as well, and I haven't the first idea how to deal with that.

Your first priority should NEVER be your children. I am appalled that your H would have to hear this denigration of him. And I am doubly appalled to hear that your children understand that they are your No. 1 Priority. This is NOT GOOD for them! They have to know that their parents have a solid No. 1 spot in the family. You relegated their father to a lower spot than them in your family, do you not see this? This cannot continue. Without their father, this family cannot survive intact. And yet you have chosen to bump him - the father of your children - down to a place UNDER THESE LITTLE KIDS. That doesn't seem wrong to you? Have you heard of child-centered families? These families are usually begun by mothers who lose sight of their children's and husbands places in the family.

This skewing of your children's place in your family is very likely something that played into your affair. I am STUNNED that you would tell your H that he is in second place to his children. That is awful. What a horrible thing to say. Why didn't you just get a sperm donor and save him all the effort? Or are you using him for his income? doh2
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I am going to be as clear as I know how to be on the suicide point, and then I hope the issue can be dropped.

I am not suicidal.

I have been suicidal.

The collective group knows way more about how to fix my marriage than I do.

SW, and let me be perfectly clear. This collective group also knows how to spot someone who is playing the suicide card when they are losing the debate. We see right through that becuase it is a classic tactic of melodramatic wayward women.

And you only confirm those suspicions when you admit you ARE NOT suicidal. Otherwise, there would be no reason to bring it up.

However, if you are suicidal, the solution is to call 911 or your local suicide hotline rather than bandying it around on an internet forum when you are losing the debate. Good grief.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Wow, Melodylane, really? Being mindful of safeguarding my mental health in light of my history is a "pity party"? Articulating that concern and asking for help in how to set some boundaries so I don't actually end up in the hospital is a "stunt"? Your answer is -- well, now that I look back on your post, you suggest nothing.

I wasn't asking for nor do I want your pity or sympathy, nor do I pity myself. I put myself in this situation and I am prepared to take the consequences up to, but not including, returning to the suicidal level of 2007. I may be the "perp" but I'm still a human being. What do you want? A public flogging?

I can't stop you from posting here, but I am going to respectfully ask that you not. In fact, I don't think you should post anywhere -- anyone who is as flippant and dismissive of talk of suicide is flat dangerous. You won't send me over the edge -- but you might send someone else over.

SW, this is probably the worst request you could make here. MelodyLane is about the best vet you're going to get. Ignore her posts at your risk.

I can tell you that I see your posts the same way: lots of Memememememe. Stop it. You have a husband, you have children. You have a husband who gave you his sperm for children you orbit around. He now appears to act as the sperm donor/bill payer. No wonder you don't respect him! But remember - you put him there.

Get over yourself. Get over your drama. No one here is going to approach you any differently than any other wayward because you throw out the 'suicide' angle from 3 years ago.

If you feel suicidal, this is not the place for you. If you need a crisis prevention site, please let the mods here know, and they can give you direction. This is a place to help you - a typical wayward - save your M.

IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT, OR NOT?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Do what you like. I haven't threatened suicide nor am I feeling suicidal. I see a psychiatrist regularly and I am not depressed. I'm not looking for sympathy. Telling me I'm having a pity party or whatever, even if its true, doesn't tell me anything useful. Being willing to listen to melodylane or whoever doesn't make any difference if they aren't saying anything concrete. I'm not mad at melodylane -- I sincerely believe she is dangerous.

I get it -- I'm the "perp" and my concern about my mental health is by definition invalid, a play for sympathy, whatever.

Probably I should just leave the forum, but I do find some people have very helpful things to say.

Can I ask why you see a psychiatrist regularly if you're not suicidal and aren't depressed?

I've got to ask: Why are you here? You obviously want no help, you're paying big bucks to a psych for no apparent reason, you had an A on your husband sperm donor and don't seem to want more than support for having it. You won't get that here.

So what is your goal in being here?
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
We do have a MC that we both very much like. He is NOT in favor of telling all the gory details, but he is a very quick study. The problem is that travel schedules have made it impossible to gain any traction. A session every so often isn't going to do it.
-Who's got the travel issues? Your husband; or the MC?
-What things is your MC suggesting?


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He will not come to this site. He is humiliated by the whole thing and there is no way he will talk about it privately, much less publicly.

-You & he are both as anonymous as you want to be on here. Just sayin.'

Quote
Sometime in the next couple of days I am going to post my strategy. I want your input.

-You shall have the input, I promise. Just keep in mind that the strategy is things you do for your husband. Read about the Harley "Four rules" (Time, Protection, Care, Honesty) -- they should be a big part of that strategy.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:46 AM
I'm officially disengaging on the whole suicide thing. It is taking away valuable emotional resources much better spent elsewhere and is a clearly a huge hot button on this site.

The post about the child centered marriage really hit me. I believed his priority was the same, and I know for a time it was because almost lost our daughter to a serious illness and I know through those years we were on the same page. I never got off of it though.

I'm not sure what the morally correct position is here. As a mother, my instincts scream my children come first, all the more because we almost lost one. Is that morally wrong?

My daughter, who we almost lost, is infuriated by the attention I am giving my marriage at what she views as her expense. How do I deal with that?

I continue to read and post here because it has been very instructive to me -- I am a person for whom precision in language is absolutely critical and I have never felt this level of frustration on communicating what I am trying to say. Better to have the lot of you vet it than my H.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I am going to be as clear as I know how to be on the suicide point, and then I hope the issue can be dropped.

I am not suicidal.

I have been suicidal.

The collective group knows way more about how to fix my marriage than I do.

I know way more about being suicidal than you do.

I am not asking for advice on this point. I am giving it.

And here is my advice: it is a delicate situation, you have no way of knowing what impact your words, however right or well intentioned you might be, might have on the person. Don't take it lightly, consider the worst case scenario when addressing this person and be extremely careful and moderate in how you address them.

Because YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ARE GOING TO REACT. There is a tipping point. In my case, it was something relatively innocuous relative to everything else that was going on, but when I tipped, it was done. You can't know the tipping point. But have the humility to know that you can't know.

That's it.

I'm unclear on why my discussion of my fear that I would return to that place triggered such a reaction, but it did. Just please, please, be careful.

saddest, stop the crap RIGHT NOW. You are not here to critique how a group of dedicated posters word their posts, are you? Well, get this:
I don't give a [censored] if you used to be suicidal. It means NOTHING TO ME. I don't know you from Adam! I'm going to give you advice to repair your M that you CAME HERE OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL TO GET.

Also, get wise to this: your situation is NOT special. You had an affair - JOIN THE WAYWARD CLUB!! It isn't delicate, it isn't 'different', it isn't unusual. You messed around with a guy who wasn't your husband and created a huge mess of your own making. End of story.

Do you want to repair the horrible damage you've done? Then put your entitlement mentality away, can the self-serving crap of "I'm an attorney" - we don't care what you are. All we're interested in is helping you get over your waywardness. If that isn't what you want, you're wasting your time here.

It it IS what you want, grow a skin, lost your entitlement mentality, shut up, and READ. twoxfour
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:55 AM
Here is what I am chewing on now and need some input on.

We have a long history of sweeping everything under the rug until there is a crisis and then we are pretty good at sweeping that under the rug too.

I feel strongly that we need to address the A. How do I bring it up directly and non-confrontationally the first time? And when? What exact words do I say that don't threaten his boundaries and make it clear that I want to talk about it when he is but the timetable is up to him? And if he never brings it up -- and history suggests he won't -- then what do I do?

First, cause no more pain.

First, cause no more pain.

First, cause no more pain.

It is my mantra.

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:03 AM
And here is the another thing I am chewing on -- what steps do I need to take on a daily basis to demonstrate my sorrow and love and commitment? I have some ideas on this point, but I would dearly love to hear from BS's on what made a difference to them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:05 AM
My suggestion would be to get the book Surviving an Affair FIRST, read it and familiarize yourself with the program and THEN present the program to him. It is not going to make much sense presented in bits and pieces.

Get SAA, Lovebusters, His Needs, Her Needs and the accompanying workbook. It will walk you through the lessons.

MB is completely different from other marriage programs or traditional counseling in that a) it results in romantic love and b) it is all behaviorally based versus feeling based. This is why MB succeeds where traditional marriage counseling fails. The tactics are completely different.

Here are some articles that touch on those differences: here

Does Marriage Builders Work?
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm officially disengaging on the whole suicide thing. It is taking away valuable emotional resources much better spent elsewhere and is a clearly a huge hot button on this site.

The post about the child centered marriage really hit me. I believed his priority was the same, and I know for a time it was because almost lost our daughter to a serious illness and I know through those years we were on the same page. I never got off of it though.

I'm not sure what the morally correct position is here. As a mother, my instincts scream my children come first, all the more because we almost lost one. Is that morally wrong?

My daughter, who we almost lost, is infuriated by the attention I am giving my marriage at what she views as her expense. How do I deal with that?

I continue to read and post here because it has been very instructive to me -- I am a person for whom precision in language is absolutely critical and I have never felt this level of frustration on communicating what I am trying to say. Better to have the lot of you vet it than my H.

Saddest,
The advice re: giving each other primary attention (as opposed to giving the children primary attention) does seem counter-intuitive to what we're taught in our culture. But it is so important. It is hugely important.

There's a key concept you can read about here called "undivided attention" -- meaning, undivided attention that you & your H give one another.

For couples trying to overcome an affair, Dr. Harley recommends 15 hours per week minimum. This is hard to do if you have kids and if even one of you has a career. But I can't overemphasize just how important it has been to rebuilding my marriage, and not just a so-so-marriage, but one where my wife & I are in-tune with one another. Over the years, we had gotten so involved in our careers and our kids and our church that we had let our 1-on-1 time slip, and the cumulative effect was not good. (No, this wasn't the reason I cheated, but it was a reason that our marital relationship wasn't what it could've been.)

This doesn't mean that you neglect your kids physically or emotionally. However, it means that you & your H set boundaries around your time together. If that means sitting down to talk every evening between 7 and 8:30pm, then you & he make it happen. If it means getting a babysitter every Saturday evening, make it happen.

There are ways to let your children know that you consider this "mom-and-dad" time important and that it does not come at their expense. By spending time together, you & your H will be not only tending the garden of your own relationship, but also modeling what committed, happy couples do. That's a wonderful gift to your kids that will serve them very well even years after thay have left your home.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:06 AM
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The post about the child centered marriage really hit me. I believed his priority was the same, and I know for a time it was because almost lost our daughter to a serious illness and I know through those years we were on the same page. I never got off of it though.

I'm not sure what the morally correct position is here. As a mother, my instincts scream my children come first, all the more because we almost lost one. Is that morally wrong?

My daughter, who we almost lost, is infuriated by the attention I am giving my marriage at what she views as her expense. How do I deal with that?

In choosing a child-centered marriage, you and your H chose to put aside your most important needs in favor of the ignorant and immature needs of your children - the same little people who are looking to you to show them their place in life. How's that worked so far? Doesn't sound like it's worked so well to me. So now everyone suffers. BAD PLAN. You kids took Priority No. 1 in your family and now they're getting screwed for it because you and your H allowed it. BAD PLAN. Little kids are NOT No. 1 in the family and never should be - they will one day resent you for giving them a place they don't deserve and cannot handle.

Your daughter has NO BUSINESS dictating to you how much attention you are giving to your No. 1 Priority, but this is the natural outcome of a child's attitude in a child-centered marriage. How do you deal with that? Tell her that she has no business manipulating you while you deal with your personal marital business.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:07 AM
There are ways to let your children know that you consider this "mom-and-dad" time important and that it does not come at their expense. By spending time together, you & your H will be not only tending the garden of your own relationship, but also modeling what committed, happy couples do. That's a wonderful gift to your kids that will serve them very well even years after thay have left your home.

Brilliant. Thank you.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:14 AM
My daughter almost died when she was 16. It wasn't her fault. She became the center of our lives, and rightly so. That isn't her fault either. It was really scary to everyone.

Now she is alive and healthy, thank God. But patterns got set that need to be broken in an empathetic loving way. I don't know how to do that, so, true to form, I have withdrawn and avoided the whole conflict.

What do I say to her? She knows about the A so her world is already shaken. How do I tell her the right thing is for me to focus on my marriage and my emotional energy which she has pretty much exclusively owned for the past five years is now going somewhere else?

Please give me the words. I don't have them.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Here is what I am chewing on now and need some input on.

We have a long history of sweeping everything under the rug until there is a crisis and then we are pretty good at sweeping that under the rug too.

I feel strongly that we need to address the A. How do I bring it up directly and non-confrontationally the first time? And when? What exact words do I say that don't threaten his boundaries and make it clear that I want to talk about it when he is but the timetable is up to him? And if he never brings it up -- and history suggests he won't -- then what do I do?

First, cause no more pain.

First, cause no more pain.

First, cause no more pain.

It is my mantra.

Okay. Better. Have you read the articles here? I would suggest you do so, as well as getting the book Surviving an Affair - you can order it on this website. It will be a critical start for both of you

Read every thread you can on this site.

Post and ask questions. You'll get a few whacks on the side of your head occasionally - expect that and it won't come as surprise when it inevitably happens. You, my friend, are a wayward, and we'll be treating you as such for awhile. Not that that's bad, mind you - it's going to help you learn.

I spent five years homeschooling my kids when they were younger. I was appalled by the women in my homeschooling support group who made it clear that their children were No. 1 in the family. Give me a few minutes and I'll tell you some really sad stories about some of those families - pity that those parents handed the keys over to kids who, because they were just KIDS, for crying out loud, had NO CLUE HOW TO NAVIGATE.

Read and listen. Ask questions. Shut up and listen to the answer without formulating your rebuttal response. It might feel a little hot in here right now, but you sound fairly intelligent - I think you'll start understanding what we're saying.

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:37 AM
I just realized that I spent this entire day on this website to avoid engaging with my H. That can't be good.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:38 AM
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Now she is alive and healthy, thank God. But patterns got set that need to be broken in an empathetic loving way. I don't know how to do that, so, true to form, I have withdrawn and avoided the whole conflict.

So. You overindulge your DD out of gratitude for her recovery, overdid it, and now are withdrawing as a way to compensate for your overindulgence? Yeah, she's probably a little confused. doh2

You need to be consistent with your DD, sad. Start with something like this: DD, I love you so very much as my daughter and I am so very proud of you! I know that you are intelligent enough to understand that your parents' M is our most important priority, and that the health of us as parents is directly related to the health of our marriage. So I know you, as a smart and respectful child, will allow us our privacy in our marriage."

Then ask her if there's anything special she'd like when you go to the grocery store. Or if she'd like to go to the mall next week. Etc.

I am not suggesting you lie to her or hide the A - it's great that she knows about that. I AM saying that she doesn't have the right - or the maturity - to be a party to your personal relationshiop as husband and wife.

Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm officially disengaging on the whole suicide thing. It is taking away valuable emotional resources much better spent elsewhere and is a clearly a huge hot button on this site.

The post about the child centered marriage really hit me. I believed his priority was the same, and I know for a time it was because almost lost our daughter to a serious illness and I know through those years we were on the same page. I never got off of it though.

I'm not sure what the morally correct position is here. As a mother, my instincts scream my children come first, all the more because we almost lost one. Is that morally wrong?

My daughter, who we almost lost, is infuriated by the attention I am giving my marriage at what she views as her expense. How do I deal with that?

I continue to read and post here because it has been very instructive to me -- I am a person for whom precision in language is absolutely critical and I have never felt this level of frustration on communicating what I am trying to say. Better to have the lot of you vet it than my H.

Yes! This is MUCH better! Smiling for your progress. Listen and learn my friend.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I just realized that I spent this entire day on this website to avoid engaging with my H. That can't be good.
You're correct. So get outta here! smirk

In your extra time, read up on the concepts people have mentioned to you. (Hint: Four Rules. Undivided Attention. Extraordinary Precautions.) Apply as best you can. Come back in a couple of days with questions.

A parting thought/question: So far, I don't believe you've said a word about why you want to save your marriage. If you've got good reasons, your husband might even want to hear them.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 03:56 AM
She is horribly confused. Am I someone she can count on or not? Recently, the answer has been no since I have been so consumed with my own issues, which, if truth be told, was a huge factor in both creating the circumstances that led to the A -- unrelenting fear about her with no relief -- and snapping the A shut.

Am I someone she can count on? I don't know the answer to that. I have made such horrible decisions.

Can I become her rock again? Yes, I think I can. But it's going to take some work on her part too.

My psychiatrist told me that children really want to forgive their parents. I hope he is right.

Down the road a bit I will talk to my daughter about all of this because I think it is critical that she understand the importance of caring for her marriage or partner and how quickly and unexpectedly you can end up in a situation you never would have in a million years expected was remotely possible if you ignore your feelings. She is cut from the exact same cloth as me.

Someone asked why I see I psychiatrist if I'm not depressed or suicidal. The answer is it is prophylactic. If you had breast cancer, you go in 4 times a year for mammograms. Same thing.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 04:02 AM
My H knows why I want to save this marriage. He is the love of my life. We have been through it all together -- way more than anyone we know.

Here is a little secret though -- we never had much of a sex life before the A. But now? Wow. I let my body tell him how much I love him because my words mean nothing. It is pretty cool.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H knows why I want to save this marriage. He is the love of my life. We have been through it all together -- way more than anyone we know.

Here is a little secret though -- we never had much of a sex life before the A. But now? Wow. I let my body tell him how much I love him because my words mean nothing. It is pretty cool.

Hysterical bonding....very common...and not a bad thing.

Do I understand your that your dd is now 21 or 22? She is long past being the center of your universe. Focus on your marriage and she will benefit in the long run.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 04:09 AM
Quote
Someone asked why I see I psychiatrist if I'm not depressed or suicidal. The answer is it is prophylactic. If you had breast cancer, you go in 4 times a year for mammograms. Same thing.


I asked, and your answer confuses me. You're going for, like, a check-up? A tune-up? I don't understand. Do you mean you are on medication that requires regular check-ups with a psych? Can I ask what your condition is? That may help us.

As for the other question about your daughter - why do you feel she can't count on you? Because you made bad choices? Don't try to be her everything. You can't. You can only be your best flawed human, like the rest of us. More importantly, you need to show her a healthy M, and that isn't a M that orbits around the children. Try orbiting around your H. You'll be amazed at the difference that makes. That's what she needs.

One more thing, then I'm off to bed - it's great that your DD lived. We have a poster here who lost her son when he was 18. There is nothing you're going through that at least one of us hasn't been through. (Sorry for bringing your awful time up, Melody.)
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm not sure what the morally correct position is here. As a mother, my instincts scream my children come first, all the more because we almost lost one. Is that morally wrong?

The discussion is rather academic. You don't put them first, anyway. Having an affair is one of the most damaging things you could possibly do to your children. You didn't have your affair for your children, by any stretch of the imagination.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 05:06 AM
I go to my psychiatrist because I was suicidally depressed and it is of grave importance, at least to me, that I don't become suicidally depressed again. My psychiatrist is a physician that I visit to help me keep tabs on that illness.

I agree with you Markos-- I blew up my life and the life of my H and my children when I made that choice. But in fact, I did put them first, for my whole life. I put everyone besides me first. I was a giver and I put every bit of self esteem and identity in that basket.

I was incredibly, inexcusably selfish in my decision to have an affair. That doesn't make me a selfish person -- I'm just not. It means I did an incredibly selfish thing.

I don't, however, think the issue is academic because it still exists in the question of what do I do going forward?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 07:09 AM
Saddest,

Reread your post I quoted
Quote
We have a long history of sweeping everything under the rug until there is a crisis and then we are pretty good at sweeping that under the rug too.

I feel strongly that we need to address the A. How do I bring it up directly and non-confrontationally the first time? And when? What exact words do I say that don't threaten his boundaries and make it clear that I want to talk about it when he is but the timetable is up to him? And if he never brings it up -- and history suggests he won't -- then what do I do?

First, cause no more pain.

First, cause no more pain.

First, cause no more pain.

It is my mantra.
And then see if you can figure out why you are having trouble with your daughter, and your marriage?

I'll give you a hint, you don't rear children without emotional pain, having almost lost two children both to medical situations (oh! in case you haven't guessed there are some posting to you that have lost children), I can tell you you are doing them no favors by your handling of that situation.

You complain about your H not addressing or wanting to talk about things and you have a mantra of cause no more pain. It is a little late for that. Recovery is PAINFUL for both you and your H. There is no good way to recover and rebuild a marriage without "radical honesty" which is not the same as "brutal honesty" Being honest with one another is going to be painful, you have lied and cheated on him and there is no "good" way to discuss this without BOTH of you enduring some pain.

It seems to me you want to push this aside but blame your H for not wanting to talk. You asked how to do this.

Allow me to offer a few suggestions for you to REALLY consider. One start to figure out WHY you allowed your boundaries to be crossed, what you told yourself that made it OK for you to have an affair. THEN, start to make plans to protect your boundaries and tell your H what you are doing and why. Tell him what you have learned since you had your A and how you plan on using what you learned to make the marriage better and to be a better W.

You only control yourself and YOUR actions, start to do that and tell him what your plan is for yourself. I truly hope that you don't pull the intellectual superiority crap with him that you have tried here. I also hope that you completely lose the suicide threats and thoughts. Your H does not need to hear this stuff because it is all about YOU, and not about him or how you are going to protect him.

You really need to do a lot of reading here, and then just because you understand the words DO NOT make the assumption that you understand the nuances of what you read, that will take a complete clearing of the fog and some time. You are NOT that fast a learner and it requires that your perspective on things really change.

Think about this...carefully.

JL
Posted By: Chrysalis Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
And here is the another thing I am chewing on -- what steps do I need to take on a daily basis to demonstrate my sorrow and love and commitment? I have some ideas on this point, but I would dearly love to hear from BS's on what made a difference to them.

SW,

Hi. Welcome to MB.

I am going to tell you something that my H did that demonstrated empathy and remorse.

It was within the context of another program, which out of respect for the owners of this site, I will not name here. But it is a program very compatible with MB.

He made a list of 40 things his affair had cost me. Then he read me that list for the first time in a group of recovering couples, all of whom were reading their lists.

Believe me, 40 is a small number. And there were many more weeks of remorse and empathy work to follow, none of it easy.
Posted By: Chrysalis Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
What do I say to her? She knows about the A so her world is already shaken. How do I tell her the right thing is for me to focus on my marriage and my emotional energy which she has pretty much exclusively owned for the past five years is now going somewhere else?

Please give me the words. I don't have them.

DD21,

You mean the world to me and to your dad. For that reason, your dad and I must focus on repairing the damage done to our family by my affair. We cannot be the parents you need until we have created a marriage that will sustain a healthy family. This is not negotiable.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 02:20 PM
The irony of this is you had an affair because you felt invisible. Now the recovery of the marriage is mostly about how you treat and protect your husband.

So if you wanted to make things about you, you did exactly the opposite of what you really needed to do by having an affair.

Now you have to make sure you are protecting your husband from your abusive behavior. Yes, I said abusive, as others have pointed out, affairs are more damaging that the loss of a loved one, or even being raped. You can find that quote from Dr Harley here, so don't just take my word from it.

So now it's about how you are going to protect your husband from you. How you are going to ensure that he is never again subjected to the same kind of betrayal you've visited upon him. It's about meeting his emotional needs. It's about providing just compensation to him for your affair.

It's not about you. But it is about how you approach your husband. That part is ALL YOU.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 04:35 PM
saddest, my DD is 14. My A was when she was 9/10. Before and during my A, I sort of compensated for my lack of M by pouring myself into kids. AND they went to school where I teach, so it was Mommy-world. My kids had a hard time when, after D-Day, I spent LOTS and LOTS of time trying to recover with DH. But now, at just 14, DD can articulate how glad she is that we are still married and "fixed it." It's all about the big picture. Your DD may react to not being the center of attention for awhile. But in the long run I guarantee she would rather have a mom and dad in love and together. And, as someone pointed out, she is an adult. It is time to stop expecting Mom and Dad's world to revolve around her.


One thing I did was schedule some Mom/Daughter time on a regular basis in the midst of recovery. That seemed to help - knowing that in spite of all the chaos, Saturday afternoon of this week would be time for her.

Josh McDowell, who has spent a lot of time over the decades on kids and relationships and such, says that the most important gift a mother and father can give their children is to love each other, and I believe that. When I think of my own security as a child, the first things that come to mind are not vacations, or shopping trips or even attendance at my ballgames. I see movies of how madly and deeply in love my parents always were/are. It was like seeing the future I wanted.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I agree with you Markos-- I blew up my life and the life of my H and my children when I made that choice. But in fact, I did put them first, for my whole life. I put everyone besides me first. I was a giver and I put every bit of self esteem and identity in that basket.

That is the mistake many people make; that is why Marriage Builders teaches you how to be giving toward your husband without compromising your Taker.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/11/10 09:27 PM
SD:

You are doing fine, plenty of good people have affairs. Do not beat yourself down!

As for WWs-----most betrayed men in this forum would love to have a WW like you.

This is my advice:

1. Be loving with H all the time and talk to him.
2. Do not stop talking. Give him all the info he wants.
3. Go hermetic NC with OM.
4. Keep up the SF that was the only thing that took may pain away.
5. Explain to H that affairs are not about the H. For example my wife would have been unfaithful to any other man she was married to.
6. Tell H that you want to learn from this mistake to impeove your marriage..

7. Look at the ENs and see what you need from H. Allow H to be angry every once in a while---this will pass with time.

8. Were you in love with OM? If you were it is natural to feel withdrawal and you may get depressed. Do not show this side to your H.



Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 12:41 AM
Thanks Stanley -- that really helped. It was a rough day.

Finished the first of my three books -- not Surviving the Affair as I am not exactly feeling warm and fuzzy towards this group and I don't want that attitude to color my reading. But I'm a book a day person so either I order more books or I'll read it Tuesday.

I have a couple of problems:

First, I am brain dead. I sit and stare into space and I NEVER sit and do nothing. I am a worker bee. It is a longstanding joke between me and H because he has no problem sitting and doing nothing. I worry that he thinks I am thinking about the OM which I am not -- when I said that it was over in my first post I meant it was over everywhere, including my head. I just have nothing to say right now. I can't seem to muster up the energy to talk about the weather. Do I address this with H, and, if so, what do I say?

Second, I am thinking about asking him to tell me if I am doing ANYTHING that makes him wonder whether the A is over. Right now I am conspicuously leaving my cell phone sitting out in the open at all times as H knows texting was the main form of communication with the OM. I've seen H check it and haven't commented -- I WANT him to check it. Should I ask H to tell me if something I am doing is making him anxious or just let it be?

We did have sort of a funny conversation today where he was trying to point out something on a mountain. He is a hunter and he sees EVERYTHING, and I never see ANYTHING but historically have said "yes -- I see it" even though I have no idea what he is pointing at. Today I did the same thing "yes, I see it", then I caught myself and said "I am so done lying about ANYTHING. I have no idea what you are pointing at." I think it was a nice moment for him.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Finished the first of my three books -- not Surviving the Affair as I am not exactly feeling warm and fuzzy towards this group and I don't want that attitude to color my reading. But I'm a book a day person so either I order more books or I'll read it Tuesday.
Re: SAA, as I think I told you earlier, that book may have saved my marriage. To be more precise, it may have kept me from jumping off a cliff, and/or my wife from pushing me off one, until we could manage & navigate proper, constructive conversations that benefitted our marital recovery in the crucial early days after I confessed my affair. If you are going to back-burner such a resource even for a day because you don't like how some other anonymous internet persona addressed you, well, that would be, as they say in law school, a non sequitur. Make it your Book of the Day for the next week, and I think you'll be glad you did. Don't do it for me or for HerPapaBear or MelodyLane or SmilingWoman or any of the other folks trying to help you. Rather, do it for you & for your husband.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
First, I am brain dead. I sit and stare into space and I NEVER sit and do nothing. I am a worker bee. It is a longstanding joke between me and H because he has no problem sitting and doing nothing. I worry that he thinks I am thinking about the OM which I am not -- when I said that it was over in my first post I meant it was over everywhere, including my head. I just have nothing to say right now. I can't seem to muster up the energy to talk about the weather. Do I address this with H, and, if so, what do I say?
Hard to guess whether H is wondering whether you're thinking about OM. You haven't said very much about OM yourself on this thread. If you're not talking & thinking a lot about him, that'd be actually one of the things you're doing right -- good on ya if so. But it would also be very unusual for you not to have experienced or still be experiencing some form of withdrawal. How long has it been since your last contact with OM? How did your affair end, and what led you to confess? Answers to these questions may help give insight into your mindset.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Second, I am thinking about asking him to tell me if I am doing ANYTHING that makes him wonder whether the A is over. Right now I am conspicuously leaving my cell phone sitting out in the open at all times as H knows texting was the main form of communication with the OM. I've seen H check it and haven't commented -- I WANT him to check it. Should I ask H to tell me if something I am doing is making him anxious or just let it be?
Without putting words into your mouth, I think it can't be bad for you to reassure your H that your door is open if/when he wants to talk. Sometimes BSs will want a flood of info, and sometimes they won't want to talk to the WS or even be in the same room or building with the WS. That roller-coaster of different emotions is perfectly normal. Just let him know you're there for him. As for reassuring him that the A is over, that will be a process, not something you can check off a list in a week or a month or a season. If you do your EPs & stick with them, his apprehensions are likely to dampen down over time. But for that time, you will need to give him the gift of your patience. There will be days that a recollection, or something you say (without even realizing it), will "trigger" painful memories for him, and it will feel like things are going backwards for the two of you. That is also part of the roller-coaster, all perfectly normal.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
We did have sort of a funny conversation today where he was trying to point out something on a mountain. He is a hunter and he sees EVERYTHING, and I never see ANYTHING but historically have said "yes -- I see it" even though I have no idea what he is pointing at. Today I did the same thing "yes, I see it", then I caught myself and said "I am so done lying about ANYTHING. I have no idea what you are pointing at." I think it was a nice moment for him.
Out of such seemingly trivial moments & changes, profound good things can be built in your marriage.

Saddest, I notice that today, you are posting mostly about your H's feelings. This is good.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
We did have sort of a funny conversation today where he was trying to point out something on a mountain. He is a hunter and he sees EVERYTHING, and I never see ANYTHING but historically have said "yes -- I see it" even though I have no idea what he is pointing at. Today I did the same thing "yes, I see it", then I caught myself and said "I am so done lying about ANYTHING. I have no idea what you are pointing at." I think it was a nice moment for him.

I am so encouraged by the change in your tone today. And the above incident is EXCELLENT!

Good for you girl! I mean lawyer lady. wink
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:31 AM
Saddest, I am a recovered alcoholic. I am also recovering from the firebombing of my marriage by the one person I least expected it from - the woman I married.

When I first came to A.A., I thought I was smarter than the bunch of people that gathered in small rooms in church basements. I had advanced degrees, professional certifications, had traveled the world, eaten gourmet meals, and met famous and influential people.

But the people in those rooms knew something I did not: They knew how to live life on life's terms, without taking a drink.

They hammered me with "tough love." I can still "feel" the bulls-eye on my forehead when a woman across the room pointed at me and told me, "You know, you might just be too damn smart for this program. You might just THINK your way out of it!"

As much as I got angry, and as much as I sometimes wanted to leave the room and all the "crazy people" in it, I stayed. I listened. I learned. I followed directions. I was told "Fred, your program doesn't work! If it worked, you wouldn't be here. But we have a program that does work. It's yours -- free -- if you want it."

I came to Marriage Builders when the love of my life flipped on me and left to be with the OM - a married man, no less. I found here much of the same tough love, and tender help I found in A.A.

A week from today I will celebrate nineteen years of continuous sobriety. The past 18 months I have gone through a debilitating back problem, the ruination of my marriage and the loss of my job. But I didn't have to drink about it.

The beginning of recovery is hard. Darn hard. I hope you stick with it, because as I was accurately promised, "You have no idea how good it can get."
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:44 AM
I don�t know who posted the comment about triage, but thank you and bless you. My brother has been an emergency room doctor for 35 years and I instantly thought, �who�s dying here?� And that person was so not me � that person was my husband, my mate, my best friend of 35 years, the person who I could always count on, bleeding to death in front of my eyes and I am doing nothing to stop it. And I couldn't believe how callow I was.

My brother taught me that when you are in the ER, you do NOT want to be at the top of the list because those are the people who just got shot. I wasn�t the one who was shot, and my mental health concerns are the folks with the sniffles in the waiting room � and being at the bottom of that list is a very, very good thing.

�Triage� was my 2X4. It�s concrete. I get it. Every time I got anxious today I said �you are in triage� and tried to run towards the patient rather than averting my eyes and running away.

I am going to have to develop some other metaphors that I can snap back to over the coming months.

So there you go � you never know what is going to hit people.


Posted By: Justlooking24 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I don't agree with you that everyone here is operating in good faith -- see justlooking24's post:

"Google "The Other Woman" That's a site that will support and "lurve" you and help you justify your despicable actions.
Your husband deserves better."

That was clearly not meant to be helpful, and is in fact antagonistic. Whatever -- if it made him/her feel better, fine.

I suggested you look at that site for a reason. You "were" acting exactly like the self centered, entitled wackos that post there. It didn't "make me feel better" and in fact usually makes me vomit to see in the same way your first posts here did.

I was hoping that when you saw how "foggy" those women acted you would recognize the same in yourself.

I'm glad you have started to clear your head a bit here.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 03:17 PM
A few suggestions.

1. Fire your Psychiatrist/Counselor.

2. Arrange phone counseling with the Harley's.

Questions

1. Where did you meet OM?

2. Do you try and maintain friendships outside the marriage with single people, either male or female?

3. Have you initiated No Contact with OM?

4. Have you written and sent OM a letter of No Contact?

5. Is OM married?

6. If he is, are you going to tell OM's wife so she can have a chance to fix her marriage?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 03:37 PM
I'm not sure what we are going to do about the MC situation. My H travels a lot. The phone counseling thing is a real problem for me -- I have a pathological aversion to talking on the phone. Because of the way I was raised, I am hyperalert to visual clues so unless I know the person really well, the phone is out. I might be able to do counseling on the phone AFTER I knew the counselor well, but I could never start out that way.

Why do you say I should fire my psychiatrist?

Re: OM -- I met him randomly. He isn't part of my regular life -- i.e., I don't work with him, he doesn't live near us, there is no way I'll ever run into him. My job is relatively easy compared to a lot of folks in that all I have to do is not contact him. I sent him an email telling him not to contact me, and he won't, at least not any time soon, and I know this because I've told him that before and he hasn't. He probably thinks I don't mean it this time, but I do. There is a slight possibility I will hear from him in a month or so, but I doubt it.

OM is separated, or so he says, and I tend to believe him. He lives in another country. I don't even know his wife's name.

I have friends. My H hates my best friend which is going to be a problem. He views her as complicit in the A which she wasn't, at all. I have no male friends -- well technically I do but they are both gay so I don't think that counts.

My H doesn't like me spending time with or talking to my friends -- he finds it threatening, so I don't. The loneliness is starting to eat at me.

This too will pass.
Posted By: StrongerThanB4 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Quote
I think maybe I don't want to hear what is really being said here which is that all pre-A issues are barred, like a statute of limitations, because there is no way to address them with without without being perceived as making excuses or justifying my decision. The consistent response from posters has been that what I perceive as a description of an issue is received as a justification. I refuse to try to excuse my behavior. I wanted to look into the why of things with him, but maybe that isn't possible. What I still don't understand though how you can fix what isn't addressed.

Gawd! You ARE a trial lawyer, aren't you rotflmao

Pre-A issues are off the table AT THIS TIME.

It's like triage.
There is a man hemorrhaging.
Now is not the time to bring up his past crappy husband behavior.

Yes, he owns one half of the pre-A mess.
So do you.

But you are in the ER, trying to stop the bleeding.

Please, believe me, he is in no shape at this time to listen to what he did wrong in the past, he's had all the air sucked out of his lungs and he can't breathe without pain.

Give it a few months.
Can you wait that long?

The questionnaires will START the process.
But, you will need to repeat them in a few months, once your H can breathe without pain. His responses might be different. Yours too.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.
You cannot rush the process.
The time to address past crappy behaviors is not now.

Do you believe me?

This was the post you were referencing about the triage. I don't have much imput for you but you are getting some good help i am glad someone put it terms that you get now.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:02 PM
Quote
...My H travels a lot. ... The loneliness is starting to eat at me.
This says that you need an Undivided Attention plan with your husband. My wife worked a lot of nightshifts & still does, and I work days & my commute was & is awful. So we needed a UA plan. So do you. What is your UA plan?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:40 PM
H and I are alone at a house we have in another state. I have his UA. The problem is I have nothing to say. I want desperately to talk to a friend, but that's out. So I post here.

I had an A because I was mad, and I'm still mad. There is another site that describes the walk away wife who tries and tries and tries to make the marriage work then gives up, shuts up and starts planning for the inevitable. The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling/manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll. I'm not blaming him for the A. But sitting here silently taking it from him feels a whole lot like the status quo ante. I don't say a word of course -- I learned how to shut up years ago.

I'm not depressed. I'm without hope. There is a difference.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The phone counseling thing is a real problem for me -- I have a pathological aversion to talking on the phone. Because of the way I was raised, I am hyperalert to visual clues so unless I know the person really well, the phone is out. I might be able to do counseling on the phone AFTER I knew the counselor well, but I could never start out that way.
Why, be specific.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Why do you say I should fire my psychiatrist?
Things you have said lead me to believe this counselor is a new age, Feel-god, whatever you need to do to be happy, enabler. A disturbing trend that is becoming more and more common. This type of counselor will hinder your marital recovery.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Re: OM -- I met him randomly.
How did you meet him? Be specific, there is a reason I am asking.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I sent him an email telling him not to contact me, and he won't, at least not any time soon.
You need to send him a letter of NC, hand written by you and approved by your BH. This letter needs to be mailed by both of you.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
OM is separated, or so he says, and I tend to believe him. He lives in another country. I don't even know his wife's name.
No, OM is married. Hire a PI to find his address and telephone number. Then call his wife and tell her what you have done to her so she can decide if she wants to save her marriage or get out of it.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have friends. My H hates my best friend which is going to be a problem. He views her as complicit in the A which she wasn't, at all.
If she knew about the affair and did not tell your husband, then she is an enemy of your marriage and should be removed from your life.

That goes for anyone that knew and did not tell him.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have no male friends -- well technically I do but they are both gay so I don't think that counts.
Are they single? Married people should not "Hang Out" with single people without there spouse.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H doesn't like me spending time with or talking to my friends -- he finds it threatening, so I don't.
If these friends are single, or hid your affair, he has good reason to feel that way.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
The loneliness is starting to eat at me.
dramaqueen
Follow the steps for creating romantic love, and you'll have all the companionship you ever need.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H travels a lot.
This is not good. A married person should avoid travel without there spouse. Why does he travel?
Posted By: themud Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:45 PM
If your S is not your #1 priority, then what does that make your M?

Think about when things get straightened out. Do you want to be second to golf or football? Do you like it now? Change it. It sounds like your kids are adults or close to it. Start MAKING them act like adults. Only babies and infants need a lot of attention. Kids need attending, young adults need words of wisdom and observance and correction witout judgement. If they can drive, they are adults and should be treated as such.
Posted By: themud Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:47 PM
I'm sure your dd is wonderful, but if she can drive or is diabled but understands to such a degree, by showing her a good example of how a marriage SHOULD be is a way to start. Not talk, talk, talk, talk. If she sees your wisdom it will be engrained upon her.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm not sure what we are going to do about the MC situation. My H travels a lot. The phone counseling thing is a real problem for me -- I have a pathological aversion to talking on the phone.

My H and I have done reg MC and also phone counseling with the Harleys, both Jennifer and Steve. IMO, you can't even compare the two.

I don't know the statistics, but Mel has posted them before ~ traditional marriage counseling has a very high failure rate. It ends up doing more damage because you actually end up love bustering each other in the sessions.

When you do phone counseling with the Harleys, they will speak to you separately to prevent this.

If you want another analogy, your M is on life support right now. SW, no offense, but I noticed in your posts, you delve in distractions such as the past and your own analysis on why things happen an awful lot. In MC you will likely waste precious time on these distractions (at least my H and I did).

You need to focus on things like how to protecting the M, helping your H to heal, and the two of you need to learn how to meet each others EN's and avoid lovebusters. The Harleys know how to do this better than anyone and they will keep you two on track.

* ps, I also felt weird about counseling over the phone ~ but it was completely fine and it only took about 1 minute to get over it.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
H and I are alone at a house we have in another state. I have his UA. The problem is I have nothing to say. I want desperately to talk to a friend, but that's out. So I post here.
You NEED to talk to your husband. He should be the only friend you need.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I had an A because I was mad,
WRONG!!

Try again.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling/manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll. I'm not blaming him for the A. But sitting here silently taking it from him feels a whole lot like the status quo ante. I don't say a word of course -- I learned how to shut up years ago.
Have you tried respectfully talking to him about these complaints?


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm not depressed. I'm without hope. There is a difference.
No, your fogged out, cycling from one extreme to another, and your going through withdrawals. When was the last contact, including indirect conctACT with OM? (FaceBook, email, someone passed on a message from HIM)
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I had an A because I was mad, and I'm still mad.
No. You had an affair because you failed to protect the M and you allowed someone else to meet your Emotional Needs. Just like any other wayward.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 05:09 PM
Some thoughts on UA time:

Saddest, UA time is one of the MOST important things you can have right now to rebuild your relationship. You need to have a minimum of 25 hours right now and plan for 15 hours every week for the rest of your lives.

It will be awkward, as you say, but the more you do it, the better you will be at it.

UA should be spent filling the 4 Intimate Needs - as they cannot be met by anyone else outside the marriage:

Recreational Companionship,
Intimate Conversation,
Affection,
Sexual Fulfillment

Here are a couple of resources that may help:
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

Personal History Questionnaire - now you may already know a lot of this information on each other, but it may be nice and go back over this information, talk about how you feel NOW about your past, etc.

Think back to when your husband and you were dating - what did you do when you were courting. Why did you fall in love? You want to get back to that point again.

Doing the ENs and LBs questionnaire is also a great thing to do right now.

You mention several times giving up your friends for your DH. I know that may seem a big thing right now, but for so long I'm sure you associated your best and funnest times with your friends and kids and not your DH. That is backwards. DH time should be where your fondest and happiest thoughts and memories are. It is going to take work to create that but it can be done.

You will have time later to develop friendships outside your marriage and rebuild your relationship with your kids, but it must always come second to your scheduled UA time with your husband.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 05:21 PM
SW,

The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling / manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll

Sounds like me before I started reading this site, although I was not relentless, might be good if H reads some of the threads here.

When I realized after reading a single sentence on this site that her abuse of me did not justify my abuse of her, I found a way out of the cyclic attack attack relationship we had drifted into.

And you are right about the snap insights, there were a few posters here who I said that's my wife or that's me, and I felt like I could see myself as others saw me. Pretty good for a FREE website.

How does you H feel about OM, has he expressed a need to meet him.

If you affair was physical you need to get STD testing immediately, and monitor yourself/H for HPV related cancers long term.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 06:17 PM
Let me try this -- I was mad when I had the A and I'm still mad. I tried respectfully talking to him about the complaints for years. I begged him -- literally begged him on my hands and knees in tears to find a way to be nice to me or divorce me.

This gets back to my original post that got so many people so agitated. How do I set any boundaries in this context? I am unconvinced that continuing to be silent is helpful. But what I heard the forum say is that I have no other option. Although, the next time he calls me a c***, I may walk out of the room. Or maybe I should let him do it three more times. Or ten more times. I just feel like there should be some limit. But maybe I'm wrong about that too -- I've been wrong about a lot of stuff.

Now is obviously not the time to try to address the issues which have me so mad. But that doesn't stop me from having the feeling. Continuing to sit silently and endure is just making me madder. And don't you all yell at me too -- I can't help how I feel. I can only help what I do -- and I'm not doing ANYTHING. I see his pain -- I really do -- and I try to run towards him through his rage, but it is terrifying. I'm not sure how long I can tolerate this.

I do try to talk to him, but I have to be so careful and I don't really have anything to say. I don't want to provoke him -- I'm here with him by myself and I am at times physically scared, but it's more that I don't want to set him off at me again. I can't sleep. Food is a joke. The fear of H is familiar territory -- I've been afraid of him for as long as I can remember -- this is just more intense. In time maybe I will adapt.

Maybe it would help to tell you all what I want to talk to a friend about. "I'm here with H, and I'm scared. His rage feels out of control to me. I am walking on eggshells and holding my breath at the same time I'm trying to fight through my own issues. I feel like throwing up and crying and running away all at the same time. I'm fried and so incredibly lonely and I think H likes seeing me this way. He's been beating me down with every tool at his disposal for years and I just handed him a precision weapon and I don't know for how long or in what way he is going to use it, but I know from history that my H never lets go of a good weapon. The future looks so bleak and I don't even know why I am here except I remember that I loved him at one time, and this is the morally right thing to do."

All of my friends know about the A -- I'm not a person who makes a lot of friends -- I have a few very close friendships that developed over many years -- as do my brother and sister with whom I am very close (I don't speak to my mother.) Am I to cut them all out of my life?

We have/had one couple friend. My H told me that if I would text them about the A and call myself a I wh***, he wouldn't tell the children about what a wh*** their mother is. So I drafted the text, H approved it, and I sent it. So they know too.

I am not about to engage on any level for any reason with the OM or his wife. I wouldn't even know where to send him a letter. He is part of my past.

The last time I saw OM was last week. I sent the NC email on Friday. I met him at a restaurant when I was out to dinner with a married friend.

I'm not sure what else I can do right now to help H heal. I'm doing everything he asks, I know his moods better than he does -- I know he is cycling through rage and suppression, I'm being considerate -- bringing him lunch, etc. I haven't left the house. I don't talk to anyone. I don't talk back to him when he is being ugly to me. I leave my cell phone out in the open. I send him funny text messages from other rooms in the house about how cute he is. I have sex whenever he wants. What else?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
What else?
Put in an emergency call to the Harleys. No question.

If you are serious about saving your M, I would do this today.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
H and I are alone at a house we have in another state. I have his UA. The problem is I have nothing to say. I want desperately to talk to a friend, but that's out. So I post here.

I had an A because I was mad, and I'm still mad. There is another site that describes the walk away wife who tries and tries and tries to make the marriage work then gives up, shuts up and starts planning for the inevitable. The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling/manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll. I'm not blaming him for the A. But sitting here silently taking it from him feels a whole lot like the status quo ante. I don't say a word of course -- I learned how to shut up years ago.

I'm not depressed. I'm without hope. There is a difference.

But, you didn't get here overnight, sad. There is a lot of damage that has been done to your M, and I'm not just talking about the A. The two of you need to get to know each other all over again. I can't imagine how emasculating it was, for your H to hear his relatively low place on your emotional pecking order. He and your M should be the No. 1 Priority in your life, and you've told him in no uncertain terms that it isn't that way. You have some work to do, and I'd suggest beginning by elevating him to his proper place in your M.
Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 06:39 PM
I feel as though no one is addressing the issue of saddestwife's physical safety. If her H has been physically abusive in the past (I'm not sure if he has or not) and she is fearing for her physical safety, then she should leave and get herself to a safe place. I worry that she's being isolated from family and friends and that if her H goes off the deep end and gets violent, there will be no one to help her. Affair or no affair, she shouldn't put herself into a dangerous situation. I don't want to be reading about her on the news in a couple of days.

If you're really that afraid of your H, please get out and get some help. If you've been afraid of your H for as long as you can remember, why do you even want to save your M? That's no way to live. There is no excuse for having an affair, but just because you had one doesn't mean that you should be forced to put up with abuse and put your life and physical safety in jeopardy.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 06:57 PM
He was violent once when he found about the A. I'm not really all that worried about it, but it's on my radarscope. When I said I have been afraid of him for as long as I can remember, I meant emotionally.

I put my kids first because I thought I was supposed to. Certainly, that is the message our society sends to mothers. As long as my kids are safe, I don't have a problem putting H and the M first. I certainly didn't mean to emasculate him. He is a wonderful provider and an excellent father.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
All of my friends know about the A -- I'm not a person who makes a lot of friends -- I have a few very close friendships that developed over many years -- as do my brother and sister with whom I am very close (I don't speak to my mother.) Am I to cut them all out of my life?
Your not getting me.

I did not ask if they know about your affair. I asked did they know before your husband and keep it a secrete from him. Anyone who did THAT is an enemy of your marriage. These people should be discarded immediately.

Important people, with you H's agreement, should be told of the affair. This is called exposure, and these important people can help safeguard your marriage from a repeat affair.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
We have/had one couple friend. My H told me that if I would text them about the A and call myself a I wh***, he wouldn't tell the children about what a wh*** their mother is. So I drafted the text, H approved it, and I sent it. So they know too.
This is wrong for two reasons.

1. You need to tell your childrene the truth about why there father is so upset at there mother.

2. Obviously, it goes without saying that your husbands actions here are not productive.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I am not about to engage on any level for any reason with the OM or his wife. I wouldn't even know where to send him a letter.
So you are unwilling to commit to NC, and you are willing to allow his wife to continue being abused by his adultery?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
He is part of my past.
No, read below. He is part of last week.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
The last time I saw OM was last week. I sent the NC email on Friday.
No wonder your so foggy, your in the hardest part of withdrawals.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I met him at a restaurant when I was out to dinner with a married friend.
What?
Why in the world would you do that?
Does your husband know this?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm not sure what else I can do right now to help H heal.
Time..... It takes 1-5yrs


Please discribe exactly how your husband has gotten physical violent with YOU in the past. Details please.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gack1
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Re: OM -- I met him randomly.
How did you meet him? Be specific, there is a reason I am asking.
You never answered this.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 07:05 PM
Sounds like an awful lot of excuses here to me and not actually any action.

YOU need to do something different saddestwife. Keep putting the same stuff in,you'll keep getting the same stuff out.

Have a good look at the program here and start thinking about the real life action you can take to turn things around instead of keep defending yourself.


Please make a list of what things you are going to do.

(this will help us get a gague on how much you are taking on board and whether you understand the concept of MB)
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by writer1
I feel as though no one is addressing the issue of saddestwife's physical safety. If her H has been physically abusive in the past (I'm not sure if he has or not) and she is fearing for her physical safety, then she should leave and get herself to a safe place.
Actually, I believe this was addressed several times earlier in the thread and she indicated there is name calling going on but nothing that makes her fear her physical safety.

SW, it is very easy to come on here and outline grievances with our spouses, especially when we are being lovebuster'd... It is a lot harder to look at yourself and see how you contributed to the cycle ~ to identify what ENs you weren't meeting and what lovebusters YOU were committing. You have already admitted in so many words that you are a conflict avoider and you haven't even begun the process of understanding how damaging that has been to your M.

And, again, your BH just experienced the worst day of his life. I think all of us BSs committed major lovebusters following dday. I know I acted like a crazy person, screaming, threatening, crying, name calling, all of it, before I found this site. This is very normal. The best thing that you can do right now is continue trying to meet his needs and not commit any lovebusters yourself. I really do believe you are going to need help in this area.

So are you going to call the Harleys??
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Let me try this -- I was mad when I had the A and I'm still mad. I tried respectfully talking to him about the complaints for years. I begged him -- literally begged him on my hands and knees in tears to find a way to be nice to me or divorce me.

This gets back to my original post that got so many people so agitated. How do I set any boundaries in this context? I am unconvinced that continuing to be silent is helpful. But what I heard the forum say is that I have no other option. Although, the next time he calls me a c***, I may walk out of the room. Or maybe I should let him do it three more times. Or ten more times. I just feel like there should be some limit. But maybe I'm wrong about that too -- I've been wrong about a lot of stuff.

Now is obviously not the time to try to address the issues which have me so mad. But that doesn't stop me from having the feeling. Continuing to sit silently and endure is just making me madder. And don't you all yell at me too -- I can't help how I feel. I can only help what I do -- and I'm not doing ANYTHING. I see his pain -- I really do -- and I try to run towards him through his rage, but it is terrifying. I'm not sure how long I can tolerate this.

I do try to talk to him, but I have to be so careful and I don't really have anything to say. I don't want to provoke him -- I'm here with him by myself and I am at times physically scared, but it's more that I don't want to set him off at me again. I can't sleep. Food is a joke. The fear of H is familiar territory -- I've been afraid of him for as long as I can remember -- this is just more intense. In time maybe I will adapt.

Maybe it would help to tell you all what I want to talk to a friend about. "I'm here with H, and I'm scared. His rage feels out of control to me. I am walking on eggshells and holding my breath at the same time I'm trying to fight through my own issues. I feel like throwing up and crying and running away all at the same time. I'm fried and so incredibly lonely and I think H likes seeing me this way. He's been beating me down with every tool at his disposal for years and I just handed him a precision weapon and I don't know for how long or in what way he is going to use it, but I know from history that my H never lets go of a good weapon. The future looks so bleak and I don't even know why I am here except I remember that I loved him at one time, and this is the morally right thing to do."

All of my friends know about the A -- I'm not a person who makes a lot of friends -- I have a few very close friendships that developed over many years -- as do my brother and sister with whom I am very close (I don't speak to my mother.) Am I to cut them all out of my life?

We have/had one couple friend. My H told me that if I would text them about the A and call myself a I wh***, he wouldn't tell the children about what a wh*** their mother is. So I drafted the text, H approved it, and I sent it. So they know too.

I am not about to engage on any level for any reason with the OM or his wife. I wouldn't even know where to send him a letter. He is part of my past.

The last time I saw OM was last week. I sent the NC email on Friday. I met him at a restaurant when I was out to dinner with a married friend.

I'm not sure what else I can do right now to help H heal. I'm doing everything he asks, I know his moods better than he does -- I know he is cycling through rage and suppression, I'm being considerate -- bringing him lunch, etc. I haven't left the house. I don't talk to anyone. I don't talk back to him when he is being ugly to me. I leave my cell phone out in the open. I send him funny text messages from other rooms in the house about how cute he is. I have sex whenever he wants. What else?


Having been around trial lawyers for the past 25 years... skeptical

This whole thread is a "debate" or at best an "argument"... oh never mind. I'll just go back to reading but the jury's still out. On second thought, I'd love for SB to give us her thoughts.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 07:49 PM
Saddest,

Ok now that we know that NC was only last Fri. your responses make a lot more sense. You are really still in the "fog". However, let's talk about your strategy for recovery and life.

One thing you will note on this site and in Harley's articles is that there MUST be a balance between ones giver and taker. This is true for you and for your H. The needs questionaire is a way to determine what and how people's needs are addressed. The four rules of a good marriage are really a guide for a good marriage and I strongly encourage you to read them. The tools for a good marriage are embodied in Harley's two main policies (the policy of radical honesty, you cannot negotiate win-win without good data) and the police of joint agreemente, POJA, (which is the tool for negotiating a win-win in any situation). You are not quite ready for this as your H is cycling between rage and deep pain for your affair, and you are cycling between wanting the marriage and withdrawal from OM.

You may say you are over him but, you also said
Quote
I'm not depressed. I'm without hope. There is a difference.
My guess is that your affair was something you looked forward to. Not unusual.

You also said
Quote
I had an A because I was mad, and I'm still mad. There is another site that describes the walk away wife who tries and tries and tries to make the marriage work then gives up, shuts up and starts planning for the inevitable. The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling/manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll.
You right, it is not an excuse for the A but may I ask why you did not just divorce him? Clearly, he is of little value to you if this is how he treats you. In case you have not figured this out, this is not a marriage at all costs site.

So while you are reluctant to tell him how he has failed you, you have in fact shown him that you found others more attractive. He will need to hear from you what his treatment of you has done to you. You need to decide if you want to be married to him and under what conditions. There is no sense in just making the marriage what it used to be. Unfortunately, you took the cowards way of having an affair. If you had come here before this A we could have helped you address the issues of the marriage, which will have to be addressed but your A puts you at a huge disadvantage in negotiating a win-win.

Ultimately as you work through this stuff, you and your H will need to really address the issues in the marriage, not just the issues of your affair. You say you have been to MC. Where you seeing the MC while carrying on your affair? If so, I doubt it could or would do much good. If your MC is pro-marriage, you need to tell him/her the real situation.

Finally, you don't have to sit there and quietly take from him the same treatment that occured before the affair. You do need to speak up and set your boundaries. You can draw the line at name calling, you can draw the line at many things and still work on the marriage.

I find this las statement interesting given how your first few posts here came across. You said
Quote
I learned how to shut up years ago.
I find it hard to believe you did this, but if you did, then you need to start to really look inside and decide what made you do this instead of either leaving or negotiating a better situation.

I must go, but I hope you think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 09:37 PM
Actually, I did shut up with H. Try to take this the right way: when people are emotionally abused over time they come to view it as normal and deserved. I stopped even trying to fight back because the abuse didn't register as such -- it became the norm. I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

Why didn't I divorce him is a good question. We were trying to resolve these very issues in 2003 - 4 time frame, and then the first crisis hit with my D's illness and then one crisis after another over the next several years. But when we are under assault from outside forces is when we are at our best as a couple. So there were some good, bonded times in there. There was also a lot more damage done to the M. When the stress was relieved and those matters resolved I was so relieved to have something looking like peace and so concerned that my two younger children have some stability for a while that I let things slide for a few years. I had several people point out to me after witnessing how H talked to me that he was being emotionally abusive and tried to address it with him, but he couldn't hear me. After a time, I gave up and went into "I can endure this for 4 more years until S is out of high school" mode. So these are longstanding issues.

Why not leave now: I think this could be a catalyst for real change. When we talk about the M calmly, he is saying all the right things, but those calm moments only come after an explosion, and those explosions do more damage. He acknowledges his abuse and wants to be a better husband. I know he is in a terrible state right now and can't help himself. So I'm trying to take the longer view and hold onto the possibility for change.

The whole MC thing is a red herring at this point -- we will be starting from scratch wherever we end up. Too much has happened in between. I'm not sure about the Harley's. When things are less tense, I need to talk to H about what he wants to do. I'm too scared to bring it up right now. He is getting ready to start a job where he will be traveling 2-3 weeks a month so we are going to have to be creative.

I met the OM at a bar at a restaurant where my girlfriend and I were having dinner. He was chatting with her and I wasn't really paying that much attention until I heard him say something that I disagreed with and I got into a debate with him. I didn't see him at all as a potential A partner. I was just chatting at first. He really liked my sparky side. Then when we left he walked with me and then we were kissing. I'll avoid putting myself in the situation in the future.

None of my friends or family members who knew about the A told my H, nor do I think it ever occurred to any of them to do so. All of them discouraged it and encouraged me to tell my H. I thought I could manage it -- while the last contact was last week, I have been fighting the battle to end it from the start and I thought I could manage it. Yes, I did look forward to it, but at the same time it was so filled with guilt and pain and fear that I don't miss it, at least not yet. Contact with OM was always very sporadic and intense. I expect that I'll have my moments, but I don't think they will be as bad as the guilt and pain and fear I experienced in the A. I need a strategy for when those times come up though.

If saying I'm not going to hire a private investigator in another country to find out who his wife is to not doing NC, then that's right, I'm not. I told my H what was in my email and he is fine with it.

I'm trying right now to get up the nerve to ask him to fill out the EN questionnaire which I am terrified to do for reasons I can't articulate. I'm hoping I will do it and not give into my conflict avoiding side. I've got to get a handle on my fear but I haven't the first idea how to do that.

Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
We have/had one couple friend. My H told me that if I would text them about the A and call myself a I wh***, he wouldn't tell the children about what a wh*** their mother is. So I drafted the text, H approved it, and I sent it. So they know too.

You know what the best solution to blackmail is?

Reveal the truth yourself.

I think you should tell your children now, anyway. They need to know.

Quote
when I was out to dinner with a married friend.

Of what gender?

Why did you mention the friend was married? Do married people not have affairs?
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
H and I are alone at a house we have in another state. I have his UA. The problem is I have nothing to say. I want desperately to talk to a friend, but that's out. So I post here.

I had an A because I was mad, and I'm still mad. There is another site that describes the walk away wife who tries and tries and tries to make the marriage work then gives up, shuts up and starts planning for the inevitable. The relentless criticism, put downs and controlling/manipulative behavior by my H have taken their toll. I'm not blaming him for the A. But sitting here silently taking it from him feels a whole lot like the status quo ante. I don't say a word of course -- I learned how to shut up years ago.

I'm not depressed. I'm without hope. There is a difference.

I believe that WWs have to feel resentment to the H to get the affair going. From your words i am not certain if you truly have an evil H or whether you are trying to justify and rationalize. If you are justifying welcome to the human race-------everybody does.

I suggest you compare your H to others and see what you get.

I can tell you that I am a pretty good type B personality H that does not control and my wife had a midlife crisis. In fact she sounded a bit like you.

Can you post specific examples of the controlling behavior?

Describe the criticism.

BTW, you continue to do quite well.

Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 10:09 PM
Quote
I met the OM at a bar at a restaurant where my girlfriend and I were having dinner. He was chatting with her and I wasn't really paying that much attention until I heard him say something that I disagreed with and I got into a debate with him. I didn't see him at all as a potential A partner. I was just chatting at first. He really liked my sparky side. Then when we left he walked with me and then we were kissing. I'll avoid putting myself in the situation in the future.

You started this affair right away. There was no prelude of friendship or EA. I have to assune you have done this before------is that correct?

You need to go hermetic NC and will only feel normal after several months.

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 10:57 PM
No, I've never done anything of the sort before. The whole thing was so wildly out of character that I can't believe it myself. I convinced myself at some point near the beginning that I had feelings for him, but quickly realized I was just trying to justify my own bad behavior. I recognize the bottom line boundaries/EN issues so don't take this wrong -- I did it because he was nice to me, it was fun to have someone to talk to, sex means nothing to me in that I there hasn't been any emotion associated with it in forever, and I'm mad at my husband for being so mean to me for so many years. The only emotional entanglement I have is with the process -- OM is a nice enough guy but he's an admitted serial philanderer and never pretended to be otherwise.

My H isn't evil. He likes to win. The very character traits that make him so successful in business have been deadly to our M. He criticized me for everything you can think of -- how I put up the dishes, where I planted the flowers, what time I made dinner, what I did or didn't do or say to the kids. Etc. You have to remember we have been together for 35 years and patterns of behavior developed when we were 16 and 17 still flourish in our relationship. It's really ridiculous. A good looking 17 year old boy has a lot of power over a 16 year old girl going on her first date in a culture where "How to Catch a Teenage Boy and What to Do With Him When You Get Him" was required reading. I wasn't about to do anything that might displease him -- he didn't like green, I wouldn't wear green. My self esteem was all wrapped up in who I was dating and I wasn't about to cross him. The balance of power was all out of whack, and we never replaced it with anything healthy. LOTS of resentment.

The comment about this thread being legal/debate has some truth to it. I am by nature and training a logic based person. I frame issues where there is a winner and a loser. I despise the female side of me that I associate with illogical emotional needs and have tried to kill her off for years but she is like a vampire.

But just because my posts have a legal/debate tone to them doesn't mean I'm not being authentic.

Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H isn't evil. He likes to win. The very character traits that make him so successful in business have been deadly to our M. He criticized me for everything you can think of -- how I put up the dishes, where I planted the flowers, what time I made dinner, what I did or didn't do or say to the kids.

A few of the things you've said about your BH make my spine prickle because it is chillingly familiar. My own now XWH was emotionally cruel. Sometimes physical. He would call me horrible names at the drop of a hat. He too was a blackmailer...if I questioned him on anything he would turn on me like an attack dog....threatened to tell my friends and family things that would embarrass me...that kind of thing.

I stayed for 26 years because I kept thinking I could do better and be better and that maybe he would chill with age. And because I felt it was the right thing to do. I wanted my son's family intact. His affair/s gave me a get out of jail free card...In hindsite, I wish I had just divorced him.

I do not know how to advise you at this point though. It is difficult to tell if he is really a bad husband or if you are still foggy and rewriting history...and I am not questioning your honesty...just your perspective.

Stick around and give lots of examples of how he treats you and how he did treat you.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/12/10 11:35 PM
Quote
Actually, I did shut up with H. Try to take this the right way: when people are emotionally abused over time they come to view it as normal and deserved. I stopped even trying to fight back because the abuse didn't register as such -- it became the norm. I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

Stop being the Victim. That gives you almost unlimited control over your actions without expecting a payback "Wha! I'm a victim, so I get to do this!" dramaqueen You had control over your choices. You won't get a lot of back-patting by taking a martyr's stance.

Emotional abuse = address it or leave it. Having an A doesn't figure into the equation.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 01:30 AM
saddest,

As we gradually get more out of you, you will see the advice become more pointed and focused. You said something that really struck me.
Quote
The comment about this thread being legal/debate has some truth to it. I am by nature and training a logic based person. I frame issues where there is a winner and a loser. I despise the female side of me that I associate with illogical emotional needs and have tried to kill her off for years but she is like a vampire.
And you like the male side of you??? I ask this as a male. Here is what struck me. You view your relationship with your H as a win-lose situation. You view your response here as a win-lose situation where you argue if you don't agree rather than sensing that perhaps you missing something if we say something that you don't agree with.

Are you seeing where some of the issue might be coming from? If you agree with us it doesn't mean you lost, it means that we see things differently from you, and right now that is a good thing. You need to understand the only "win" I get out of posting to you or anyone else who has posted to you, is IF you end up either happily married OR you end up leaving this marriage secure in the knowledge that you did all you could think of and all we could think of. Nothing left in the bag as they say in golf.

Clamming up with your husband has never and will never be a good strategy. How you voice your opinions will determine how effective you will be in getting him to actually hear you. Part of what everyone is saying has to do with how you voice your opinions. Confrontational almost never works in a relationship. It hasn't worked for your H, his W had an affair. It hasn't worked for you, you are deep dissatisfied with your H.

You need to start to see things with a new perspective and it cannot be a legal perspective. Let me tell you young lady, you are "just starting to learn". I came here when I was older than you and I chose my login name for a reason. I am a scientist and have spent my life in science and frankly when I found this site I realized I was just learning about a world I did not know near enough about. Now 11 years later, I am still learning new things.

If you do nothing else, you need to decide to learn what you clearly don't understand. It will help you for the rest of your life whether or not your marriage survives.

I made the comment about being surprised that you shut down with your H after watching how arguementive you were with everyone here. Don't you think that is interesting that you would argue and defend yourself with us, but you would not defend yourself with your H? I do.

Time for a paradigm shift Saddest. Yes, you need to do your best to reassure your H, but what you don't seem to know and what he has never learned, is that he will be happier if you are happier. That is a win-win, not a win-lose.

The goal here is to help you win so that you can help your H win, and the two of you become friends/lovers rather than adversaries. He needs to understand this as well. It isn't done with threats it is done by expressing "honestly" how you feel and see things. You need to hear him as well.

I must go, but I hope you think about this very carefully.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The comment about this thread being legal/debate has some truth to it. I am by nature and training a logic based person. I frame issues where there is a winner and a loser.

I have good news for you, then. Marriage Builders exactly the program for you. It is designed to appeal to people on a logical basis so that their "illogical/emotional" partners who have been pestering them for years to try a marriage-building program can finally hand them something different.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
we will be starting from scratch wherever we end up. Too much has happened in between.
Do you really believe that?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
He is getting ready to start a job where he will be traveling 2-3 weeks a month
Have you even been listening?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
None of my friends or family members who knew about the A told my H
Forgive me, I'm just a dumb, semi illiterate hick who probably made less $$ last year then you or your husband made in a month, but...

Is there not a legal term for someone who watched a crime unfold, did not try to stop it, did not report it, and in fact hid it?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
nor do I think it ever occurred to any of them to do so.
Again, in legal terms. Is ignorance of the law an excuse?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
If saying I'm not going to hire a private investigator in another country to find out who his wife is to not doing NC, then that's right, I'm not. I told my H what was in my email and he is fine with it.
So you fully admit you are going to allow this man to continue to victimize his wife?

Again, is there not a legal term for this?

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I met the OM at a bar at a restaurant where my girlfriend and I were having dinner.
I am guessing your husband was not there?

Why are you, a married woman, going to a bar, especially without your husband?

Don't get offended, I am trying to help you.
Don't get defensive, I am trying to help you.
Don't think I hate you, I am trying to help you.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 06:19 AM
Gack, I'm not defensive with you -- at this point, it is clear to me that people are trying to help, and it is helping enormously for many reasons, but a big one is because I have gotten a huge wake up call on how precise I have to be in what I say.

For example, I said this: in MC that we will be starting from scratch. What I was trying to communicate was that we saw the MC twice over a month when everything was changing fast. Switching is no big deal, and, given H's travel schedule, inevitable. So, we are starting from scratch with whoever. The MC is a quick study and in a perfect world I think we would both like to work with him, but I don't think on a practical level that is possible.

See how unclear I was on a non-critical point? Scary.

I don't agree with you about automatically reporting adultery. In some instances it is certainly appropriate. In other instances, no. We know very little about what is going on in the lives of the people we know best -- everyone else is a mystery. There have been instances where a man was "outed" and the wife was blamed, in many cases wrongfully, and beaten or killed for telling anyone. I'm not suggesting that that is the case with the OM here -- the idea is ridiculous -- but he lives on another continent so I know nothing.

A very close friend had someone "out" her husband for an A ten years ago and she was furious then and she still thinks the spouse of the AP was wrong to invade her privacy and "use" her for his agenda. She would rather have not known. She believes to this day that if she hadn't known they would be much happier today. She may be wrong -- who knows? -- but she earned the right to an opinion for sure. And she told me all of that ages before my A.

With the very tiny exception of having an A, I am big on analyzing the potential downside impact of most of my decisions.

What I do know is that I am not willing to invest the time, money, energy and emotional resources into satisfying myself that that is the right thing to do with respect to OM's wife. All other issues aside, that process would inevitably result in me interacting with OM as I am reasonably certain he would contact me under those circumstances and reasonably certain he won't contact me under these circumstances, and so, no.

I am not being patronizing here at all -- I am at heart a teacher and you are going to have to take me on faith on that -- but your legal analysis simply doesn't work.

For the most part, there is no legal obligation to report a crime. I can watch you lock up your bicycle and watch someone cut your chain and drive it away and I have no obligation to do anything. With a few exceptions, the obligation to report only arises with a legally recognized duty. For example, all health care professionals have a legally imposed duty to report suspected incidences of child abuse. But in some states I can walk by a woman on the street who is beating her child with a hammer, and I have no legal obligation to do anything.

So -- what you are talking about is moral duty to report. My friends and family were uniform in their opinion that what I was doing was so very wrong and uniform in their opinion that I needed to tell my H. However, they were all also very nervous about the condition of my relationship with my H. I think they made the only choice they could.

My H wouldn't ever take me anywhere -- I am a really good cook -- and so, I started going out to dinner every so often -- MAYBE once a month for the prior 4 months - with female friends. It was a nice break every so often - I get tired of cooking 7 nights a week. My standards are ridiculously high -- I won't order out, I have never served a canned anything in my house and we eat what I call "close to the ground" as in, no processed stuff, ever. My perfectionism frequently gets in the way of my life, but on this point I think I am right.

H is way more willing to go out now, and that has been huge.

The night I met OM, my friend and I had finished eating, people were waiting for tables, I didn't want to go home yet so we went to sit in the bar and have another glass of wine. It was so innocuous at at the time. I didn't know I was vulnerable even a little bit.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 06:48 AM
I emailed the Harleys today to set up a phone session. My hands were shaking so hard I could barely fill in the form. Then I threw up.

Baby steps, but progress.

Here is my thank you:

I saw OM last on Thursday night, I sent the NC email on Friday morning, I came back to this website that I have been haunting for months on Friday afternoon, I sent my SOS first post right before I go on the plane to come see H, saw the responses and felt under attack.

There is no better thing that could have happened to me. When I sense I am under attack, I go into hyper-intellectual overdrive. Net/Net what has happened is that all of the time that I would normally have spent obsessing about OM and drafting and redrafting my next email to him has been occupied by thinking about what I am going to say to whoever on this forum.

So, for every post you see from me here, consider it text messages and emails NOT sent to OM. And every response I get tells me I am not as alone as I think I am and I don't have to contact him.

I've replaced one addiction with another, but this is way healthier. I need this right now, but I hope it is a stepping stone to saying all this to my H.

Don't think for one moment though that I am not hysterically grateful to all who respond. I am humbled by the effort.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 12:26 PM
Sad, I haven't read your entire thread, but I will have to say that I disagree with you NOT telling your OMW. You have ONE example of someone who didn't want to "know". The thing is, DrH wrote the books and it is the "Marriage Builders" name above the door here. It would be WRONG of us NOT to suggest Exposure as that is the FIRST and most important step to marital recovery. MB is very much an all or nothing type of program. It is not a menu where you can choose things as YOU seem fit.

It is better for a BS to know about their WSs affair so they can protect themselves. It could be that they would protect themselves by getting a divorce and it could be they protect themselves by affair proofing their marriage. The choice is the BSs and THEY are in control. MB is the BEST way to recover from an affair. It should be used in it's entirety.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
Sad, I haven't read your entire thread, but I will have to say that I disagree with you NOT telling your OMW. You have ONE example of someone who didn't want to "know". The thing is, DrH wrote the books and it is the "Marriage Builders" name above the door here. It would be WRONG of us NOT to suggest Exposure as that is the FIRST and most important step to marital recovery. MB is very much an all or nothing type of program. It is not a menu where you can choose things as YOU seem fit.

It is better for a BS to know about their WSs affair so they can protect themselves. It could be that they would protect themselves by getting a divorce and it could be they protect themselves by affair proofing their marriage. The choice is the BSs and THEY are in control. MB is the BEST way to recover from an affair. It should be used in it's entirety.


AGREE! laugh Sorry, but ever since I saw your first post, I mentioned that the OMW needs to know before they tie the knot, do you honestly believe that you are saving her from heart ache? Sorry, but my response is NO! She will even be MORE hurt when she find out after 3 kids, that her husband left her for a woman 20 years younger.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 01:38 PM
My bit telling OMW
and here where I askend -why bother telling OMW.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I don't agree with you about automatically reporting adultery. In some instances it is certainly appropriate. In other instances, no.
Wrong.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
A very close friend had someone "out" her husband for an A ten years ago and she was furious then and she still thinks the spouse of the AP was wrong to invade her privacy and "use" her for his agenda.
Your friend needs to learn to place this blame firmly at her husbands feet, not that of his victim.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
She would rather have not known.
Strange, if I was her I would rather my husband not had an affair.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
She believes to this day that if she hadn't known they would be much happier today.
Or they would much more likely be divorced.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
She may be wrong
Yup grin

Originally Posted by saddestwife
All other issues aside, that process would inevitably result in me interacting with OM as I am reasonably certain he would contact me under those circumstances and reasonably certain he won't contact me under these circumstances, and so, no.
Your still not getting it.

All avenues of possible contact with OM must be eliminated.
This includes, but is not limited to.
Phone numbers
E-mail addresses
Acquaintances with OM
And in some cases, moving.

Once all avenues of contact have been eliminated, there will be no contact.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
but your legal analysis simply doesn't work.

That might be because I'm not a lawyer. rotflmao

What I am is a betrayed husband who is recovering from his wifes affair.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
My friends and family were uniform in their opinion that what I was doing was so very wrong and uniform in their opinion that I needed to tell my H. However, they were all also very nervous about the condition of my relationship with my H. I think they made the only choice they could.
Hmmm....


Originally Posted by saddestwife
My standards are ridiculously high -- I won't order out, I have never served a canned anything in my house and we eat what I call "close to the ground" as in, no processed stuff, ever. My perfectionism frequently gets in the way of my life, but on this point I think I am right.
I put a beer can up the chickens but, and put it on the grill last night. Sides where baked tators, fried okra, corn on the cob, and a salad. Now that's some good eating!

Seriously, learn to order a pizza or bucket of chicken occasionally.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
H is way more willing to go out now, and that has been huge.
This is a good step. You both need to start spending time doing things together, not individually with friends.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I didn't know I was vulnerable even a little bit.
Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions yet?

We are all vulnerable to an affair, on good boundaries and precautions keep them from happening.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I emailed the Harleys today to set up a phone session. My hands were shaking so hard I could barely fill in the form. Then I threw up.
Why?

Seriously, I don't understand this.







I just have to tease you about this. rotflmao
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have never served a canned anything in my house and we eat what I call "close to the ground" as in, no processed stuff, ever.
So, where do you get your hot dogs from?
Or SPAM?
Or tuna?
Or baked beans?
Or Beer?
Or Velveeta?
Or cranberry sauce?
Or Spaghetti'Os?
Etc, Etc, Etc......

All the good foods are either processed or grown in a can. hurray



rotflmao cool rotflmao

Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:03 PM
Okay Gack:

SPAM is not actual food. I think it may have originated from an alien life form. Never trust a meat whose animal of origin is uncertain.

Tuna is a fish. You can find it in the meat case along with all the other fresh fish.

Beans come dried in bags, not just in cans that include the word "pork" in their name.

Beer can also come from a bottle.

Velveeta is not an actual cheese.

Cranberry sauce is made with real fresh cranberries and is very yummy.

Spaghetti Os are far inferior to actual spaghetti, which is made with dried or fresh pasta (fresh is better).

*** And I do hope you know I'm just messing with you here.

Though, with the exception of the beer (which I don't drink at all) I do actually prefer all of the above mentioned foods to their processed counterparts.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:13 PM
Gack, if you are eating those things, you must stop instantly -- and I mean no contact of any sort. Go through your pantry and refrigerator, put it all in a trash bag and take it to the dump. Avoid situations where you might be tempted -- if you have to change your driving routes so you don't pass McDonalds, do it. Have someone else go to the grocery store for you. When I say No Contact, I mean none whatsoever.

I know you will probably go through withdrawal and will do things to justify your bad behavior like deciding that an unpronouncable chemical name on the ingredients list is an actual nutrient. Recognize that you are experiencing foggy thinking and come here instead. There are people here to help you -- you may not like what they have to say at times but we won't hold back because we want you to live.
Posted By: cobol_girl Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:24 PM
Even though it is awful that you had an A, the real issue here is that you are in an abusive M. My first H was abusive and I can tell you that staying with an abuser is much worse. Like another poster on this thread I got the courage to end that M after he had his third (that I know of) A. My life became so much better after I divorced him. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. You need to get help for the abuse first or get out.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by writer1
Okay Gack:

SPAM is not actual food. I think it may have originated from an alien life form. Never trust a meat whose animal of origin is uncertain.
Actually I don't personally like spam, but it's history and contents are very interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28food%29
I do keep several cans of it and other long term storable foods on hand, in case of a Zombie uprising.

Originally Posted by writer1
Tuna is a fish. You can find it in the meat case along with all the other fresh fish.
I personally prefer tolopia, preferably a light lemon/butter sauce. However, when it comes to something to put on a Rits cracker, I'll take a can of StarKist tuna. cool

Originally Posted by writer1
Beans come dried in bags, not just in cans that include the word "pork" in their name.
Bush's country style trumps all other baked beans I have ever had. Homemade or not.

Originally Posted by writer1
Beer can also come from a bottle.
Bottles are harder to recycle, are more likely to end up in a landfill, take up more space in a land fill for a longer time, and require more fuel to deliver.

Plus it costs more$$ to purchase.

Originally Posted by writer1
Velveeta is not an actual cheese.
But it sure does taste good on my Broccoli hurray

Originally Posted by writer1
Spaghetti Os are far inferior to actual spaghetti, which is made with dried or fresh pasta (fresh is better).
Nonsense. I have personally interviewed several people between the ages of 5 and 12, all of whom prefer "Sgetti-O's" over actual spaghetti.


I'm hungry rotflmao

Ok, I think we have Thread Jacked this enough.

Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by cobol_girl
Even though it is awful that you had an A, the real issue here is that you are in an abusive M.
Is she?
Or is she rewriting history?

I am not saying she is not, but I am hearing the same basic complaint's of control and criticism that I have heard from almost every WW that has ever posted here with recent contact with OM.


Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:38 PM
Gack.....I can't believe you don't like spam. Oh well, neither does that lady in the Monty Python skit.

SW, I know the world is spinning. I can't write much - I'm in between sessions at a workpshop. But keep posting. And don't eat any spam. Since you are a lawyer, if anyone tries to make you eat spam...just say, "I object!" That's all the humor I've got today.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:41 PM
Another T/J

But I wonder if we could start a thread for WW and FWW so that they could list whether they claimed it after recent NC and whether it still exists into recovery. Just to get some numbers on this issue

- obvioulsy one close to my heart.

My opinion at the mo is that she really needs to make amends for the A and start working the prog. She feels she is physically safe and she will need to weather the emotional bit for a while 'til she has her house in order.
Posted By: armymama Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:42 PM
"Gack, if you are eating those things, you must stop instantly -- and I mean no contact of any sort. Go through your pantry and refrigerator, put it all in a trash bag and take it to the dump. Avoid situations where you might be tempted -- if you have to change your driving routes so you don't pass McDonalds, do it. Have someone else go to the grocery store for you. When I say No Contact, I mean none whatsoever.

I know you will probably go through withdrawal and will do things to justify your bad behavior like deciding that an unpronouncable chemical name on the ingredients list is an actual nutrient. Recognize that you are experiencing foggy thinking and come here instead. There are people here to help you -- you may not like what they have to say at times but we won't hold back because we want you to live."

Something I have noticed both in my H's A and from reading here for 2+ years is that when newly WSes post with a euphoric and giddy tone, there has nearly always been a recent contact "fix". Hope that does not apply in this case.

AM
Posted By: Lookin4Serenity Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 04:42 PM
SW:
I have read your entire thread. I'm imporessed with the way you hung in here even though you felt like you we're getting beat up and said twice that you were done with this forum. I have no real advice to give other than to keep it up and work hard at following the advice being given to you by the vets on this site (and yes, this includes Mel). These folks have helped you crack your shell of justification. I believe from your most recent posts that you are beginning to see this. You remind me of my WW in many ways. I only wish she had the courage to do what you are doing.

If you keep it up, and can convince your BS to take this path along with you, in the not too distant future you will look back at this thread, maybe review it and wonder how on earth you ever felt justified to say this in your third post:

"I said no to the other man right up until the time I said yes"

At some point you may even cut and paste it on the "things waywards say" thread.

Keep it up

Blessings
L4S
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 05:50 PM
Nope, no fix. Even better is that I just got a text message from my daughter and the chime didn't make my heart rate go up wondering if if was from the OM, nor did I feel the need to race to the phone to check and delete for fear my H would catch me. I don't expect my H to see it the same way, but the lack of emotional entanglement with the OM is a very good thing -- I don't miss him, I miss the A process.

I like living this way much better than the other.

And this post is another text message not sent.....
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Gack, if you are eating those things, you must stop instantly -- and I mean no contact of any sort. Go through your pantry and refrigerator, put it all in a trash bag and take it to the dump. Avoid situations where you might be tempted -- if you have to change your driving routes so you don't pass McDonalds, do it. Have someone else go to the grocery store for you. When I say No Contact, I mean none whatsoever.

I know you will probably go through withdrawal and will do things to justify your bad behavior like deciding that an unpronouncable chemical name on the ingredients list is an actual nutrient. Recognize that you are experiencing foggy thinking and come here instead. There are people here to help you -- you may not like what they have to say at times but we won't hold back because we want you to live.

SW:

If nothing else, THIS WAS FUNNY. Change a couple words and it can be what the folks here have been telling you what to do.

Your moving in the right direction. You seem pretty bright. You just might "get this MB stuff" and become a regular poster, and MB vet.... Feel up to that?

LG
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Nope, no fix. Even better is that I just got a text message from my daughter and the chime didn't make my heart rate go up wondering if if was from the OM, nor did I feel the need to race to the phone to check and delete for fear my H would catch me. I don't expect my H to see it the same way, but the lack of emotional entanglement with the OM is a very good thing -- I don't miss him, I miss the A process.

I like living this way much better than the other.

And this post is another text message not sent.....

SW;

One of the things that helped my BW recover from my 4.5 year A was that I called HER all those times that I used to call OW...

It made a huge difference. You can post here, but you should call your husband...MORE.

LG
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 07:04 PM
Melodylane, please forgive me. I was WAY out of line. I took out the rage I am feeling at myself on you. Please come back and knock me upside of the head as hard as you can when necessary. You clearly know the right buttons to push. If I act like an idiot again, put it down to the fog....

And while I am at it, let me clear up the record on my H. I conveniently failed to mention the good stuff in an effort to get sympathy and justify my behavior. My H is incredibly loyal. He has enormous integrity. He is standing by me and working on the small things that deposit units in the LB -- like he helped me clean the floors yesterday. He is a good man who is willing to take responsibility for his conduct in our M. He is visibly working at changing his behavior. Hey -- he puts up with me -- how bad could he really be?

Believe it or not, I do try to be scrupulously honest with myself and others and step up to the plate when I am wrong. My H and I talked last night about how we have failed to bring our best qualities into the M. I wonder why that is.

My H works at home so we talk all the time.

I'm getting my head around the telling all the gory details thing -- that's a biggie.
Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 07:24 PM
I think most wayward spouses tend to focus on the negative aspects of their marriage when they are still in the fog of the affair. It helps to justify the behavior. It's not remotely helpful in recovering the marriage, but it is very common. I never characterized my H as controlling or criticizing (he is neither of those things) but I was very focused on other negative aspects of our relationship. For me, it was all about how my H didn't understand me and how we didn't have anything at all in common. But it was still the same thing.

As far as the gory details go, I think you should let your H take the lead on this one. Let him decide what he wants to know. Some BS's want to know everything and some do not. My H really didn't want a play-by-play of everything that happened with the OM, so I didn't give him one. I did answer all of his questions completely and honestly. After my H's affair, I wanted to know everything. I'm a very detail-oriented person, so I had to know every last little thing that happened and every word that was ever said. Everyone is different in this respect. I think your H will let you know what he needs to know in order to heal.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 07:26 PM
Saddest, please read this link.
It links to Joseph's letter

Usually we share this letter with the BS when their WS is reluctant to share the details of the A .... Usually claiming that the truth will hurt the BS too much.

I recommend you share Joseph's letter with your H.

The thing is, you've known all about your A from day one.
Everything is all brand new to your H.
We cannot process what we do not know.

I hope this helps.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 07:57 PM
Saddest,

You said
Quote
I'm getting my head around the telling all the gory details thing -- that's a biggie.
Let me offer some advice that has worked for many folks over the years. When you are really ready to answer any of your H's questions, sit him down and tell him the following.

"Dear, I will honestly answer any questions you have at any level of detail you want. But, I have a few requests. One is that you write them down. and then write down why you want to know this information and how it will help you. Let it sit for a day or so, and then reread what you wrote. If you still want to know, then I will answer with all of the detail I can possibly give. I know my answers will hurt you, but I want my answers to also help you and I recover and build our marriage. That is why I asked you to consider how they will help you. If they won't help you and simply cause pain, you need to decide if that is worth it to you."

You see Saddest, there are very productive ways to address some of this and often it is the presentation. Another thing I would recommend to you is that you sit down and really reflect on what you have learned from your affair and what you are starting to learn now. It may seem odd, but your H is more likely to receive information from you if he knows that you are learning and growing from this as well.

You also said
Quote
He is standing by me and working on the small things that deposit units in the LB -- like he helped me clean the floors yesterday. He is a good man who is willing to take responsibility for his conduct in our M. He is visibly working at changing his behavior. Hey -- he puts up with me -- how bad could he really be?
There is the dicotomy of recovery and why it is so anti-intuitive. He is trying to change because you failed him. Does that make sense? Not really until you realize that he does love you, but also knows he has failed. So he tries, BUT (and here is where MB can really help you) Harley knows that many marriages go down the tube not because of effort but because of ineffective effort. He needs to target his actions toward YOUR needs in a way that you recognize and YOU need to do the same.

Please see if he will fill out the needs questionaire that can be found here and in Harley's books. It doesn't matter if your needs are the same or not, what matters is that you each discuss your own needs and how best to meet them. By the way, most men don't have "needs", NAH! real men don't. Desires yes, but NEEDS "a real man isn't needy" wink My point, pay attention to his reactions to words. Put things in words that keep his defenses down. Touch him when you talk to him, put you hand on his, or his arm.

The idea here is both of you to change your perspectives on things, it is not a requirement that either of you change yourselves, but your perspectives. He wants certain things from you and he is not getting him. He needs to "see" that his approach has been ineffective and given approaches that are. Same for you, which is why we were on you at the beginning. Your perspectives need to change.

I'll leave you with the following quote
Quote
If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
Now men know this or at least most do. But does your H? Also do you appreciate that if your H isn't happy you won't be either. We are back to win-win again, aren't we?

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 09:22 PM
Quote
If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.


Or as I heard recently... "Happy wife, happy life." smile
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 10:08 PM
Just Learning, I literally broke out in a cold sweat and teared up when I read your recommendation on how to tell my H the details. It so exactly reflects how I feel, and while I am of course not looking forward to it, having a framework in which to do it has lifted my dread a bit.

It will be some time before we have the conversation, but now I can start thinking about how to say what he needs to hear in the right way instead of trying to formulate a response to "tell me everything that happened." I want to be honest without being accidentally cruel.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am so incredibly grateful to you and the rest of the posters.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/13/10 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Gack, if you are eating those things, you must stop instantly -- and I mean no contact of any sort. Go through your pantry and refrigerator, put it all in a trash bag and take it to the dump. Avoid situations where you might be tempted -- if you have to change your driving routes so you don't pass McDonalds, do it. Have someone else go to the grocery store for you. When I say No Contact, I mean none whatsoever.

I know you will probably go through withdrawal and will do things to justify your bad behavior like deciding that an unpronouncable chemical name on the ingredients list is an actual nutrient. Recognize that you are experiencing foggy thinking and come here instead. There are people here to help you -- you may not like what they have to say at times but we won't hold back because we want you to live.

Oooooh....and she is funny too! smile
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 12:52 AM
Saddest,

I am glad I could be of some help.

Could I make a recommendation? Thank you. smile Please now go back and reread this whole thread from beginning to end. I want you to see and feel how things are changing. I want you to reflect on how you saw things when you first posted and how you are seeing them now.

You have a very long way to go, but if the changes in your posting are reflecting the changes in your perceptions, then you will begin to see a path to communicating better with your H.

I will also tell you that there is pattern, or tide if you will to recovery. Your H will be and seems to be very happy to try and recover, but in approximately about 6 months give or take a little you can expect him to become angry. We see it here all of the time, it is speculated that this is caused by the marriage being on a path of recovery and the BS using primarily their giver. Once it seems like the marriage may make it all of the delayed pain/anger comes out.

One year anniversary of d-day is another point where things get dicey. My point expect ups and downs, anticipate and you will be able to handle it better than you imagine.

The patterns are always there in one form or another.

Please reread your thread.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 01:42 AM
How does this work as a paradigm shift?

I am hyper-alert to his verbal and emotional abuse because it is a threat not only to me, but to our M.

He is hyper-alert to any indication that I am continuing my A because it is a threat not only to him, but to our M.

TOGETHER we will keep the M safe from those threats.

Am I getting closer?

Another issue -- he doesn't want to read a bunch of books and stuff to try to fix this because (1) he finds it so painful, and (2) he isn't that much of a reader. I am a voracious reader.

My response has been "that's my job", the idea being that I will cull through it all, figure out what has the greatest application to us (for example, chapters on how workplace relationships become affairs have no relevance), and give him what I think is most meaningful for us.

I made this mess, I need to fix it, but I am a little uncomfortable with this set up. On the other hand, I think asking him to plow through a bunch of irrelevant stuff is just mean.

I was certain I put SAA in my suitcase, but it isn't there so I ordered another copy -- all you armchair Freudian psychologists can have a big time with that (that is a joke.)

Please give me thoughts on the reading thing.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 01:53 AM
BTW Smilingwoman, I am sorry to hear how you ended up -- being emotionally abused is no picnic, no matter how the phrase gets bandied about. It is a hideous, soul destroying process because you never question the right of the abuser to say what they are saying or the truth of what they are saying so you put your head down and try even harder to be perfect. Obviously, you can't, and even if you could the standard keeps changing without notice and you find yourself blindsided one more time because you had no idea. Every single thing about you erodes because you can't be perfect which is bad enough, but you can't even know what that means on a day to day basis. You never have the slightest idea where the next shot is coming from, so every moment of every day is filled with enormous anxiety where your whole life force is dedicated to anticipating what is coming next and from where.


It is possible I could have gotten H's attention without the A, but I'm not so sure.

I got called down by my psychiatrist on leaving H, who shows that he really does want to change. I told my psychiatrist I didn't think my H could ever change, and he said "if you don't believe in the possibility of change, then what are you doing here?"

So ... here is to hope for change, in me and in him.

I
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
BTW Smilingwoman, I am sorry to hear how you ended up -- being emotionally abused is no picnic, no matter how the phrase gets bandied about. It is a hideous, soul destroying process because you never question the right of the abuser to say what they are saying or the truth of what they are saying so you put your head down and try even harder to be perfect. Obviously, you can't, and even if you could the standard keeps changing without notice and you find yourself blindsided one more time because you had no idea. Every single thing about you erodes because you can't be perfect which is bad enough, but you can't even know what that means on a day to day basis. You never have the slightest idea where the next shot is coming from, so every moment of every day is filled with enormous anxiety where your whole life force is dedicated to anticipating what is coming next and from where. \

Correct. I'm appreciating day by day how fortunate I am to never have to try and deal with my XH again on this level. Watch the Mel Gibson 'tapes' and you will know what I lived through.

You are soooooooooo much better. Wow what a difference a week can make! You are doing great and learning a lot. Good for you.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 06:26 AM
saddest,

You asked
Quote
How does this work as a paradigm shift?

I am hyper-alert to his verbal and emotional abuse because it is a threat not only to me, but to our M.

He is hyper-alert to any indication that I am continuing my A because it is a threat not only to him, but to our M.

TOGETHER we will keep the M safe from those threats.

Am I getting closer?
The shift occurs when both of you see the wisdom in changing how you interact with one another. It changes when you both see that you are one, and when you hurt your spouse you hurt yourself. It changes when you start to see what this site is really about. You are starting to change some but there is more to come.

One thing that will interest you is that if you change, your H will have to change as well. If you won't tolerate his abuse, and he finds that treating you well works better, he might change. By the same token, you have to do a lot to regain his trust.

Are you seeing the symmetry in this? Now as for reading, may I suggest that you two just do the needs questionaire. It will provide you both a forum to discuss what you each expect and need from the other. He doesn't have to read the books yet, but eventually he does need to pick up the lexicon of recovery. I have always thought that one of the interesting aspects of couples that read some of this info if not all of it is that they develop a common language to discuss how they feel and respond to one another. This is particularly important for men, but since you have stated that you have surpressed your femine side, you might find this useful as well.

JL
Posted By: TheRoad Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 07:59 AM
"Another issue -- he doesn't want to read a bunch of books and stuff to try to fix this because (1) he finds it so painful, and (2) he isn't that much of a reader. I am a voracious reader.

My response has been "that's my job", the idea being that I will cull through it all, figure out what has the greatest application to us (for example, chapters on how workplace relationships become affairs have no relevance), and give him what I think is most meaningful for us.

I made this mess, I need to fix it, but I am a little uncomfortable with this set up."

You will never make a non reader want to read. So you have to do what you have to do. So don't feel bad just do it.

If BH was sick would you not bring his medicine to his bedside or would you make him get up on his own?
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 12:34 PM
BW,

Please give me thoughts on the reading thing.

My wife appreciates what MB has done for our marriage, has mentioned it in her prayers a few times, but when I show her some of the postings that turned me around, she just does not get it. I think she just cannot feel empathy with stories that she reads, her empathy style is personal.

So yes sometimes the improvements have to be one sided while you wait for the other person to get it by example. In my case I just stopped my abuse of her COLD, and endured her carrying on as she had before for some time.

Awhile back you wrote.

OM is a nice enough guy but he's an admitted serial philanderer and never pretended to be otherwise.

NOT a nice guy, he disregarded your children when he had an affair with you, and likely has damaged the home environment of many other families with children, since men like him have a specific type of prey they attack.

NOT a nice guy, he left your life in flames and moved on to the next.

God Bless
Gamma

Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Another issue -- he doesn't want to read a bunch of books and stuff to try to fix this because (1) he finds it so painful, and (2) he isn't that much of a reader. I am a voracious reader.

Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts DVD, $10: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_basicsdvd.html

Fall in Love, Stay in Love Unabridged Audio CD, $26.24:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6015_fall.html

His Needs, Her Needs Unabridged Audio CD: $29.99:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html

I have heard some people swear by taking your man on a car trip and listening to the audio books together.

And I'll swear by listening to FiLSiL in the car alone, more than once.

Hmm, I also just found out Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders has an audio book version, $29.99:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6080_buyer.html

There also used to be a His Needs, Her Needs, For Parents Seminar DVD, but I can no longer find it. We have it, so I know it exists. Maybe I am just missing it, or maybe it is no longer available. Don't be thrown by the "For Parents" emphasis; the book with this title is great even for those who will never be parents, and as I recall the seminar was as well.

The home study course + accountability program comes with the option for you to watch another Dr. Harley seminar online. But the course and program will involve reading. I think ultimately your husband is going to have to do some reading, but it is going to be your job to show him what is in it for him by your behavior. There are experts who can help you with this.

I am afraid that if you edit material and pass it to him that sets up a teacher/student relationship between you, which is not conducive to romantic love.

Another thing I suggest is the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook; at the very least trying to work through that might guide your husband to the important things to read in the other books.

But don't put the cart before the horse. Provide some healing for him, so he doesn't find it so painful.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
It is possible I could have gotten H's attention without the A, but I'm not so sure.

Sure you could have; there are people here who could have shown you how.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I got called down by my psychiatrist on leaving H,
I'm feeling a bit dens today, can you explain what this means/when this happened?

Originally Posted by Gamma
OM is a nice enough guy but he's an admitted serial philanderer and never pretended to be otherwise.

NOT a nice guy, he disregarded your children when he had an affair with you, and likely has damaged the home environment of many other families with children, since men like him have a specific type of prey they attack.

NOT a nice guy, he left your life in flames and moved on to the next.
Yup, and his wife should be warned if at all possible.

I really wish you would make some effort in warning her. I understand she is in another country, but contacting her may be simpler than you think. And since you are changing every form of contact you have, your excuse about OM contacting you because of exposing to is wife is negated.

What do you know about OM?
(Your H may want to know this one day too)

For example, I know the following about my wifes former OM
Name, first, last and middle
Social security number
Address
X-wifes name
Daughters name
Criminal record (Felon)
Employment history
Parents name and address
Automobile type and license number

Do you know any of these or other things about your OM?
Posted By: Youdeservebetter Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:08 PM
I'm just a lurker -

but wanted to sprinkle some encouragement here.

To saddestwife - it's great that in spite of your initial reaction - you've stuck around and are still here! Be proud!

To many of the other posters - the fact that you continue to fight and fight and fight in order to try to help someone that you don't know is very admirable. Be proud!
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:34 PM
Part of the issue is that touchy/feely language makes us BOTH really squirmy -- historically lots of eye rolling etc. when it has come up from time to time.

See how well that has worked for us?

We are both such logic based people -- I am having a hard time with the EN questionnaire -- pretty much all 0's -- needing anything from my H hasn't turned out so well in the past. I don't want to be dishonest, but I also don't want to hurt him or discourage him. So l am tabling that for now -- is that the right thing to do?

Another issue is that when we went to MC right after DD, I said I would talk about anything but I don't want the word "love" used because I don't know what that means -- my mother and my H both "love" me but if that is what love is, I don't want any part of it.

So I have to develop a metaphor and a language that we both can stomach and makes sense to me.

I ordered the Fall In Love audio cd -- we have a 13 hour car ride home in about a month so the timing could be just right. I ordered the His Needs/Her Needs book which should come tomorrow.

I can't express how twitchy the whole needs thing makes me -- needs are for weenies.

And you are right about the OM -- he is not a nice guy. One of the spurs to being able to end it was that I got really mad -- he is professional predator who saw something he wanted (me), knew all the right things to say, and wouldn't give up. Yes, I was low hanging fruit and none of that excuses me. But like all successful con men, he was very charming -- that's what I meant by nice.

Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Part of the issue is that touchy/feely language makes us BOTH really squirmy -- historically lots of eye rolling etc. when it has come up from time to time.

You are in the right place. Marriage Builders is deliberately a lot less touchy/feely/psychobabble than other approaches.

You'll hear some amount of that kind of lingo here on the forum, but you won't see it in the books, website articles, or from the Marriage Builders staff if you talk to them.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
And you are right about the OM -- he is not a nice guy. One of the spurs to being able to end it was that I got really mad -- he is professional predator who saw something he wanted (me), knew all the right things to say, and wouldn't give up. Yes, I was low hanging fruit and none of that excuses me. But like all successful con men, he was very charming -- that's what I meant by nice.


NOW will you call his wife and let her know her H is a BAD man??
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:40 PM
Saddest, Dr. Harley has said about his books that they are designed to be picked up by a woman and handed to a man. Women buy the vast majority of the relationship books that are bought. Every woman is different, but the typical woman eats up the touchy feely psychobabble language.

Likewise, every man is different, but the typical man despises that language, relationship discussions, etc.

Dr. Harley has stated that he designed his books to be different, such that the woman picking them up and handing them to her husband will be handing him something with an approach that will appeal to him.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I can't express how twitchy the whole needs thing makes me -- needs are for weenies.

You can call them emotional wants if it'll make you feel better. Or emotional roses.

Nothing is really a need. You don't really need air and food. You just need them if you want to stay alive.

All "needs" in life are things that you need in order to accomplish a specific goal. You don't really need them if it's not your goal.

Dr. Harley's emotional needs are the things that you need in order to experience the feeling of romantic love. That's why you need them.

You won't die without sex, affection, conversation, recreational companionship. But you won't be in love without them, either.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
So l am tabling that for now -- is that the right thing to do?
No!
And you should re-do it in a few months.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 03:11 PM
SW:

This line:

Quote
I can't express how twitchy the whole needs thing makes me -- needs are for weenies.


You had a need for Conversation and Admiration.

OM met this need in you.

Suddenly.... This "Logic-based" person was removing her panties, and hiding her cell phone, and finding reasons to leave the house, and ignore her children, husband and "Logical" life.

Believe me, I could have talked you out of your panties too.

Because these things that make you "squirm" were not being met, and someone was going to, and when they did, "logic" went out the window.

It is not "logical" for anyone here to post to you. What do we care? Its your life and your "logical" decisions.

We post to your becasue we have learned thatn what Dr Harley has learned in his Counseling Practice over many years, that the things that were being tried didn't work, and was able to bring those things to that did WORK, into HIS practice, and was able to offer those things in such a way that other could understand them.

You do not need to be in crisis, like you are NOW, to understand these concepts. You just have to be married for a while. And be willing to look at what is wrong with yourself and decide that ther may be another way to live in the future.

MB saved my marriage. I also believe that is saved my life. You may feel that is extreme, or not logical. That is OK. But what I learned at the MB weekend, and then thru the books, and even posting here, trying to "Give Back", was that it DID make sense.

And logical? I'm a CPA. Logic always worked for me. But once I left the area of accounting, I was whacked. I am MUCH more balanced now.

So, you can say this stuff makes you squirmy. I beleive that ANY touching of the truth will make you squirmy. And you will stop being squirmy when you start living in the truth.

Your Husband decided to help around the house, and you thought this was GREAT!

Emotional NEED. Right there. You can't escape it. You wanted help from your husband. But to talk about it made you squirm. But what if your had?

What if, like I was, you were introduced to MB and its terms and concepts THREE DAY before D-day? What if you had been introduced three YEARS ago? I wish I would have learned this stuff three years INTO my marriage.

I learned about MB three days before D-day, and BS and I were able to TALK. To talk about the issues that existed in our marraige for many years, and in our shelves, because MB gave us a language and a process to address things that were WRONG.

So you can squirm. Or you can LEARN. Learning reduces squirming.

Or, if you prefer squirming, I will leave you with Dr. Phil's Line:

"How's that working for you?"

It worked you right into an affair.....

LG
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 03:19 PM
I'm chewing on the OM and his W thing -- you may recall I was the tiniest bit resistant to some of the suggestions made early on but I came around. This is something I need to discuss with my H and the time is not ripe for that. I will be shocked if he would be willing to hire a PI to track her down.

I have a problem with my D21 who might have accidentally picked up some bad emotional habits from mom here. She is in committed relationship (or as committed as you get at 21) but met someone she likes. The first line of her text was "don't tell dad" so I immediately told dad. I texted her back that uncompromising and rigid honesty in all things is the only acceptable standard, etc. H asked me what I was telling her and I read him my text and starting crying for the first time since all this started, and I couldn't stop. I don't know if that helps him or not.

Anyway, I would love input on my texts and what I should say to her next, but I don't want to overburden this forum which has already given me WAY more than my share of attention.

Finally, if anyone is aware of a WS thread similarly situated to me, could you point me to it? There are lots of BS's and I'm reading like mad, but I'd like to look at WS threads too better educate myself.

Thanks guys.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I ordered the Fall In Love audio cd -- we have a 13 hour car ride home in about a month so the timing could be just right.

Anything sooner, like a drive to the grocery store once a week? I wouldn't wait a month. I'd listen to it now every time you're in the car, and then again all the way through in a month.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
We are both such logic based people -- I am having a hard time with the EN questionnaire -- pretty much all 0's -- needing anything from my H hasn't turned out so well in the past. I don't want to be dishonest, but I also don't want to hurt him or discourage him. So l am tabling that for now -- is that the right thing to do?

Don't table this stuff, as it can't wait.

Remember, it's not "I need this in order to live." It's "When I receive this, it makes me fall in love with the person who gave it to me. I need it in order to fall in love."

Some keys to identifying your emotional needs if you find it difficult:
What did you and your husband do for each other when you were dating?
What things did you expect from marriage and look forward to when you were engaged?
What did you use to imagine marriage would be like when you were very little?
What things have made you fall in love with other people? (Former boyfriends, and, sadly, your affair partner.)
Dr. Harley defines an emotional need as a strong craving that, when satisfied, makes you feel happy and fulfilled, and when unsatisfied makes you feel frustrated.

You may not have perfect insight into what your emotional needs are, yet, and your husband may not, either. Each of you is still responsible for figuring them out and meeting them.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm chewing on the OM and his W thing
Good smile


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I will be shocked if he would be willing to hire a PI to track her down.
You may not need to.

Whay do you know about OM?

Originally Posted by Gack1
For example, I know the following about my wifes former OM
Name, first, last and middle
Social security number
Address
X-wifes name
Daughters name
Criminal record (Felon)
Employment history
Parents name and address
Automobile type and license number

Do you know any of these or other things about your OM?
I did not use a PI to find any of this out.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 04:10 PM
saddest, at age 21, your daughter is probably going to be very resistant to learning relationship lessons from you.

Does your daughter know at this point that you had an affair? She will learn more from watching your example of how you handle it, than anything you can say directly.

I agree with not keeping secrets for her from your husband. Whenever anyone asks me to keep something secret from my wife, I explain to them that I will not do that. We got married so that we could be one, and so we do not have secrets from one another. Anyone asking me to keep a secret from my wife is an enemy of my marriage.

I hate to be always recommending books, but you could give your daughter the book I Promise You. And/or the book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. Both of these are aimed at single people (but good for anybody to read).

Your daughter is not married, and therefore no matter how "committed" her relationship is, she has the right to break it off and move on to someone else. She does not have the right to lie to people and hurt them. I hope she is not sexually involved with either of these people. But at 21, it's probably too late to tell her all of this. She is grown and is going to have to make her own decisions.

I would heed the warning that you get from airline stewardesses: in an emergency, put your own oxygen mask on first, then try to help your children with theirs. Healing your marriage will go a long way to helping your daughter down the road, no matter how old she is. But the time to do all of this was 21 years ago. You can't catch up immediately through talking to her, alone.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 05:16 PM
I'm really struggling today. It is all I can not to throw my stuff and my dog in the car, call the lawyer, and drive home. I haven't unpacked my suitcase yet -- every time I walk in the closet to do it, I end up not. I am a total neat freak so this is telling.

I don't know where the line is between self loathing and an appropriate level of guilt. I'm in self loathing but every time I try to crawl out of that hole it feels like justification.

I'm afraid I'm getting depressed again, but even saying that feels self indulgent. I should be depressed. I'm crying all the time and trying to hide it from H but he wanders out of his office and catches me.

I'm so lonely. H doesn't want to talk about any of this -- I asked him last night when I was crying if it helped him to see my remorse and he looked into the distance for a minute, then changed the subject.

I could really use a big block of time alone. That is where I heal and recharge my batteries -- my need for that and my H's refusal to acknowledge that boundary has been a huge issue in our M. There is no way I can ask for that now -- even the question would raise the subject of the A whether it is mentioned or not -- and even if he said yes, I don't know where I would go.

Husbands should NOT work at home.

On the bright side, I accidentally broke a wine glass last night and H didn't get mad at me. It's not much, but it's something.

Being with H 24/7 may be what's needed. I don't know. I'm out of gas. Help.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Part of the issue is that touchy/feely language makes us BOTH really squirmy -- historically lots of eye rolling etc. when it has come up from time to time.

...We are both such logic based people -- I am having a hard time with the EN questionnaire -- pretty much all 0's -- needing anything from my H hasn't turned out so well in the past. I don't want to be dishonest, but I also don't want to hurt him or discourage him. So l am tabling that for now -- is that the right thing to do?...

...So I have to develop a metaphor and a language that we both can stomach and makes sense to me.

...I can't express how twitchy the whole needs thing makes me -- needs are for weenies.

Saddest, what did you & H do when you fell in love and got married -- populate a spreadsheet and decide it was logical to get married? Of course you didn't. It was a touchy-feely thing that you guys did when you traded rings. You each said 'yes/I do' for a reason.

You wanted to hear from WSs. Well, I'm one here to tell you that what I keep hearing from you here, in between hopeful & encouraging glimmers of lucidity, are excuses NOT to communicate better with your H and excuses NOT to fully utilize tools that have been recommended to you & that can help you communicate better.

Hanging out on this website talking to well-meaning strangers is only going to get you so far. I didn't even FIND this place until over 7 months after D-Day. My wife & I recovered our marriage, and I recovered my decency & boundaries (although still probably not yet the full requisite humility, LOL!), because we took our MC's advice to heart without question when she told us to work through "Surviving An Affair"; because we were radically honest, because we protected each other emotionally; because I kept to my EPs for the most part, because we POJA'd things; because we made time for one another in our daily lives for undivided attention, because we did the EN questionnaires and discussed our answers with one another and tried to implement changes to make sure needs were clearly expressed, understood and met.

We did all of these things because in the early weeks after D-Day, we both MADE OUSELVES VULNERABLE and admitted needs to one another. (Had I been man enough to admit needs to her before my affair, and even during my affair, while it was still at the emotional-only stage, how much heartache I might've saved!) We made ourselves vulnerable by admitting that we wanted "us" back, and with a goal NOT just of getting things back to the way they'd been pre-A, but rather a goal of making our marriage better than it had been pre-A. Now, over 18 months out, there is still work to do -- I know that I still have work to do -- there will always be work to do -- but it can be done, provided there is a commitment to doing it.

I'm being honest here: I don't hear full-fledged commitment from you. Rather, I hear you waxing & waning, between occasionally mentioning how much you are remorseful & wanting this marriage to work & how your husband's the love of your life, vs. basically tagging your H as an emotional abuser and thus basically making him responsible for where your marriage is now. I'm not saying I have it right, but I'm saying that's what I perceive from the sum vector of your posts.

So you like metaphor? Here's one: In one of our first counseling sessions together, our MC told me to imagine myself hacking through miles of jungle to get to my wife. Even though I couldn't see her, I had to keep hacking. It would take weeks, months, maybe longer for all I knew at the time; and for all I knew, maybe she'd change her mind and not find the ability to forgive me, and maybe she wouldn't be there when I'd hacked to where she was (which would've been her right); but no matter what, from the very start, I had to be committed to seeing it through. The "hacking" wasn't hanging around on the internet waiting for strangers to kick my butt into action. Rather, the "hacking" was the action -- the daily reading, the daily communication, the daily changes, the holding-on through the rough patches of her emotional roller-coaster -- which has mattered.

Saddest, you'd have thought that my wife & I had it all together before my affair. We each graduated 2nd in our respective high school classes. We're good looking. We make good money. We have straight-A, overachieving children who are good looking like their parents. She is an accomplished nurse and hospital unit manager, and I am a former diplomat with a Master's degree and speak a foreign language. All the logic & smarts & worldly wisdom you'd ever want. A textbook marriage to all outside appearances; and it very well could've been one on the inside, too; yet when I let myself get to feeling entitled, none of my smarts mattered; I was so stupid that I almost threw it all away by having my affair. Thank God my wife & I were both smart enough to realize that we weren't smart enough to save & improve our marriage without getting a little illogical & "touchy-feely," without making ourselves vulnerable to one another.

Three days ago, I suggested that you let your H know why you wanted to save this marriage. You replied that he "knows" why. I detect a whiff of evasion there. Have you actually told him? Or are you making an assumption? (My wife & I have found that assumptions are usually the least effective form of spousal communication possible.) If you've told him, you've gotta keep telling him, and follow up the words with actions. You're smart enough to see the logic in that, yes?
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 06:25 PM
I'm curious, what proactive steps are you taking to change yourself, build boundaries, protect your marriage, and make it better? A list of things you are doing would be great, and include as many MB practices as possible.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 06:32 PM
SW,

I texted her back that uncompromising and rigid honesty in all things is the only acceptable standard, etc. H asked me what I was telling her and I read him my text and starting crying for the first time since all this started, and I couldn't stop. I don't know if that helps him or not.

Yes it will help him long term, I wish my wife could see the effect her affair had on me, but she never broke down or even gave an apology.

I think seeing your daughter repeat your errors is really killing off whatever microscopic life your affair still had, and will allow you to see OM for what is is a remorseless killer of families.

God Bless
Gamma




Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
I'm curious, what proactive steps are you taking to change yourself, build boundaries, protect your marriage, and make it better? A list of things you are doing would be great, and include as many MB practices as possible.

Great suggestion W/S.

Seems that it may get dimissed as "not logical"

And would make her "squirm"

Now she says she would rather spend time alone. She can obsess easier about the OM by herself. When she has to interact with her BH, it shows how little she has done.

SW: We can all use our own "Down Time". All by ourselves to fix "ourselves". Sounds "Touchy-feely" to me....

I was lucky on Dday. My BW had the next two weeks off work anyway. And I am self-employed, so I had control of my schedule. I doubt that her and I spent more than one hour NOT together during that time.

And here you are stating that he shouldn't be working from home.

Unpack your bags.

Start with that VERY SIMPLE STEP of showing committment to something besides your "feelings".

Don't you think your BH notices that you haven't emptied the suitcase?

I'm glad your here. Your learning. If you think the past two weeks were tough, just wait.

LG
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I could really use a big block of time alone. That is where I heal and recharge my batteries -- my need for that and my H's refusal to acknowledge that boundary has been a huge issue in our M.

Saddest, I've noticed that you throw the word "boundary" around a lot.

That seems uncharacteristic for you, since boundary is essentially a touchy-feely psychobabbly word. I rarely see it used by the Marriage Builders staff, if ever, although many on this forum are fond of it.

"Boundaries" between you and your husband are not the problem you think they are. I suggest you pitch that issue and work the program that CAN fix the marriage you and your husband share: Marriage Builders.

The only "boundaries" that I've seen you have a problem with are boundaries between you and other people. Those are the boundaries you need to work on.

Your husband needs you to throw up less walls between the two of you, not more.

I am not suggesting you tolerate any form of abuse, nor does the Marriage Builders program.

But I am suggesting you put away your psychobabble. It is not helping you, and you claim you don't like it.
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm so lonely.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I could really use a big block of time alone
These two statements are contradictory.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
H doesn't want to talk about any of this --
Then talk about something else.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Being with H 24/7 may be what's needed.
Correct dance2

As for your depression, ask yourself a serious question. Are you depressed because you feel bad about what you have done, or because you miss your affair.

And you have not answered any of the questions I posted earlier today.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 07:44 PM
Quote
As for your depression, ask yourself a serious question. Are you depressed because you feel bad about what you have done, or because you miss your affair.


Or because you're feeling overwhelmed with how much work is really involved to get to a healthy marriage?

They say recovery isn't for the weak. That's a fact.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
I'm curious, what proactive steps are you taking to change yourself, build boundaries, protect your marriage, and make it better? A list of things you are doing would be great, and include as many MB practices as possible.

I agree - and as I asked a day or 2 ago
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/14/10 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
As for your depression, ask yourself a serious question. Are you depressed because you feel bad about what you have done, or because you miss your affair.


Or because you're feeling overwhelmed with how much work is really involved to get to a healthy marriage?

They say recovery isn't for the weak. That's a fact.
X2

and since you seem to be very passive agressive... x4. You are going to have to face A LOT of things that are going to make you uncomfortable in R. No doubt. Your wanting to be alone I think is your PA coming out. Not for the reasons you stated...IMO...
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 12:21 AM
"Now she says she would rather spend time alone. She can obsess easier about the OM by herself. When she has to interact with her BH, it shows how little she has done."

Lousy golfer, I want to get beaten up here -- it's why I keep coming back. But that is unfair. I'm not obsessing about OM -- when I said it was over, I meant that part too.

Squirmy feeling inside now = PAY ATTENTION TO THIS BECAUSE IT IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

I know OM first and last name and the city he says he is from in another country but the name is so common, it is like looking up John Smith in NYC. And I know where he works -- or at least where he says he works.

To me, the is a difference between wanting to be alone and feeling lonely. When I say I want to be alone, I mean by myself in a place where I won't be interrupted or distracted by the needs of others. H and I are so tuned into each other that it is hard to recharge in the face of his pain. I did take a break this afternoon and went without cell phone and computer to another room to read a book for a couple of hours which helped -- picked the History of World Religions instead of my favorite legal thrillers to give us something to talk about. What I have been reading has historically driven a lot of our conversations and I haven't been reading much in the last several months what with having to deal with OM and all.... The ways my A has hurt us continues to unfold.....

Boundary, self respect, limits on what you will tolerate -- the concept is all the same -- define it as all the stuff that the Giver on steroids gives up. I don't even set limits with what my DOG can demand of me -- he stands there and barks at me until I give him a treat.

What am I doing? I'm thinking. I have read the EN questionnaire so many times I could recite it. The first time I read it it might has well have been in Greek. Now it is starting to make sense. I have read every word written by Dr. Harley on this website, as well as pouring over other websites. SAA should come tomorrow -- they didn't have it in the bookstore where I am and I left my copy at home (???). I have requested a phone appointment with Dr. Harley. I am complimenting him when he is considerate, and giving him as good of real time feed back as I can -- "hear the tone of voice your used then? Lose it, permanantly." Or, conversely, when I did something today which headed off a potential problem for him he said "thank you for doing that. It was very thoughtful." and I said "more of that."

Understand this: left to his own devises, my H would sweep this under the rug and we would continue to limp along like we were before. I am going to have to take the lead on this, and I need to get it exactly right. Failure is not an option. If I don't get it right, we will go through a bunch more c*** which will cause him unnecessary pain for no good reason. There is a lot of information out there on this subject, and I want to know everything there is to know before I start the process. For every moment's pain that we endure in the process, there must be a purpose to it. For example, when I started out it was "you must tell him all the gory details" which sounded cruel to me. Then Justlearning posted that beautiful introduction to the conversation, and I read the letter to _____? (sorry -- if I go back on my browser I will lose all this) and I am comfortable now that I can do it in a loving, empathic way.

So gloveoil is right in a way -- but it's not so much that looking for excuses to not talk to my H -- we had a nice chat this afternoon, filled with awkward silences but that is going to happen -- it's that when it comes to this stuff I want to do it in the exact right way. And I have my own issues to deal with -- there isn't a thread on this website that addresses the Walk Away Wife syndrome but that's me -- to but it in MB terms, I have been in withdrawal mode for a very, very long time.

Which is an issue -- the best course of action CANNOT be self serving. I am going to have to be rigid with myself. And I am going to need you good folks to whack me around when I'm not.

Why do I want to save my M? I don't. It was sick -- a mutually assured destruction zone. I want a new one. So does he. I have been with this man for 35 years. We had something really special. We didn't take care of our M. We know it. I had an A to hurt him back, and withdrew all of my LU's and then some from the bank. He has been seriously overdrawn for years.

I want my H back. I want my best friend back. Good lord, I just started crying again -- I don't cry. Sign of weakness. But all of the sudden I miss that man I married so much.

Depression isn't the issue -- it is normal and appropriate to feel all the stuff I am feeling. I just can't let that slip into clinical depression -- that does no one any good.

D21 -- yes, she knows of the A -- I looked her in the eye today and said "you see how your dad has suffered and the pain I am in because of what I did? Sear that in your memory honey. You don't ever want to have to be a part of something like this." It resonated.

I use this forum as a substitute for my text messaging addiction to OM -- like methadone -- the fact that the advice I get is so excellent is an added benefit. I am feeling my obsessive need to FIX THIS NOW dying down, so I think my posts will become less frequent and I get more comfortable talking to H, less still (I'm sure you will all be heartbroken). I'm going to hang around this forum for a LONG time to come to give back as I get to a healthier place.

So -- a reminder -- in addition to a call for help, every post here is another text message not sent (ATMNS). It is a lovely feeling to know there are people out there I don't know who would rather me bug them than text the OM.


Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 12:56 AM
Quote
...it's not so much that looking for excuses to not talk to my H -- we had a nice chat this afternoon, filled with awkward silences but that is going to happen -- it's that when it comes to this stuff I want to do it in the exact right way...
Fair enough, Saddest. Keep reading. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good in staying engaged with BH.

Quote
I want my H back. I want my best friend back. Good lord, I just started crying again -- I don't cry. Sign of weakness. But all of the sudden I miss that man I married so much.
Letting the truth get to you is a sign of strength.

Quote
I use this forum as a substitute for my text messaging addiction to OM ... in addition to a call for help, every post here is another text message not sent
Withdrawal is a *itch. It's probably been recommended to you already in this 23pp. thread, but in case not, look up Mark1952's post on Managing Memories & Dealing with Triggers. It's not light reading, but there's some stuff that's applicable to the early-withdrawal phase as well as afterwards, valid for WSs as well as BSs.

Quote
I am feeling my obsessive need to FIX THIS NOW dying down, so I think my posts will become less frequent and I get more comfortable talking to H, less still ... I'm going to hang around this forum for a LONG time to come to give back as I get to a healthier place.
I know how it feels to want to be anyplace else except where you are. It's hard, and knowing that we ourselves are to blame for where we find ourselves is hard on top of that. Just be sure to define how you're progressing in terms of how well your betrayed spouse is progressing. Many days, that won't be as fast as you'd like. But when you think that, remind yourself that it's not as fast as he'd like to be healing, either. Have each other's backs covered. (And remember, lady-in-withdrawal: OM never had your back covered... you were an optional diversion for him.)
Posted By: Gack1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have been with this man for 35 years.
You have been together, longer than I have been alive.

I do hope you can save your marriage.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 04:50 AM
saddest,

You want to read an interesting book? Try reading "Men made Easy", by a lady named "Oh". It is sort of a 12 step way to deal with men. I ran across this book years ago on a trip. The title sort of ticked me off, so I decided to read it. It was an easy read and took about an hour. Actually, she has some very good points and insights.

One of them I'll share with you now. She claims that women talk about their feelings from the time they are little. They talk about their emotions in great detail with friends, thus they build up phrases and vocabulary to express what they feel and think. Men on the other hand are trained to never admit they are in emotional pain or that someone has gotten to them. They just don't talk about feelings and emotions.

So when asked how they are feeling the usual answer is "fine". smile If you had boys you know what I am saying. wink One thing men do well is enjoy silence. They are not intimidated by silence women are and usually try to fill the void.

So consider how a conversation about feelings usually goes between a man and woman, especially if the man has been hurt. She asks how he feels? He says, "fine". She say "I know you don't feel fine I just ripped your heart out and stomped on it. So how do you feel." He just sits there.

Now here is Oh's advice. Just sit there realize you want to ask clarifying questions to "help" him, or provide answers for him, but just sit there. Why? Because it could take minutes or more for him to form the phrases and words that express how he feels, and he knows you won't wait so he doesn't have to. However, if you don't ask the next question, and you just sit there indicating that you will wait you are more likely to get the dialogue you want.

Your H has been abusive to you. Your comments indicate that he is rather passive agressive with you and you with him. Things are changing and one thing that has to change is him NOT conveying to you how he feels.

Here is my opinion. Anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as pain, frustration, fear, etc. If you can get him talking about what he fears what frustrates him, he is much less likely to be angry and much more likely to be successful in dealing with his anger. You are NOT his psych. nor am I, but it makes sense that if he can express what is bothering him in a constructive way you two can negotiate a solution that meets both of your needs. Remember you are very likely much better with words than he is. Also remember that the needs questionaire is NOT psycho babble. Harley is a very concrete and focussed man, you two need to be as well. The issue is do either of you know what to focus on?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 03:56 PM
Quote
I want my H back. I want my best friend back. Good lord, I just started crying again -- I don't cry. Sign of weakness. But all of the sudden I miss that man I married so much.
Feelings are not a sign of weakness. I think this all the time, hiding my pain, guilt, anger, and even happiness and pride, what did I become? A completley uninteresting, boring person. My MC had a tough time reading me because I do not show emotion, Im like a freaking robot.

Feelings are expressed through body and facial expressions. What is it? 55% of communication is thfough facial and body cues. Another 30% is done by voice inflection, driven by emotion. The most interesting people are also some of the most emotional. Repressing feelings=BAD communication. No wonder you two are bored with each other....lol.

Also sharing feelings, I think, is a major part of O&H. How can he be O&H with you if he is not telling you how he is really feeling? How are you O&H with him if you are not sharing your feelings? I know this is a tough concept to consider. It sounds like touchy feely crap, but it is something that I think needs to be addressed. It will take a long time and lots of prctice to get in this type of habit. Drop the tough guy routine, and open up.

Just the other day I was walking out of the Gym at Hill AFB. I over heard a very large sergents conversation and he was talking about he broke down crying. (Yes I guess AF sergents cry). It just took me by suprise because he should be a hard calloused man who could beat me down if he is cross. I then realized that him expressing his feelings were probably taking a lot of weight of his shoulders, and releiving him of whatever was bothering him. He was still a tough guy, but he knew how to express himself, and I envied that a little.
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 04:15 PM
Quote
Boundary, self respect, limits on what you will tolerate -- the concept is all the same -- define it as all the stuff that the Giver on steroids gives up. I don't even set limits with what my DOG can demand of me -- he stands there and barks at me until I give him a treat.

I like to describe boundaries as limits and rules you impose on yourself to protect what you deem important in life. No one can impose boundaries on you, and you can't impose boundaries on others. They exist in your locus of control, your small little circle that you have control over, and it takes will power to uphold those boundaries.

A good analogy of enforcing a boundary is a diet. You have rules in your diet because you think losing weight is important in your life. No one else can force you to lose weight, and it is all up to you to ensure that it is followed. If you have no will power, and your baoundaries are lose your diet fails quickly.

The same goes with a marriage. There are rules to your marriage, you may even add a couple, because you find your marriage important. If you have weak boundaries, low willpower, then your marriage will fail.

Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/15/10 07:22 PM
Quote
I am complimenting him when he is considerate, and giving him as good of real time feed back as I can -- "hear the tone of voice your used then? Lose it, permanantly." Or, conversely, when I did something today which headed off a potential problem for him he said "thank you for doing that. It was very thoughtful." and I said "more of that."


Wow, I don't know if it's the written word that makes your terminology/communication with your H seem cold and harsh or what, but this really jumped out at me. It sounds like you're dictating what you want instead of making respecful requests. Could just be me or the style of communicating you and your H have always used, I dunno.

I don't think you have to be necessarily flowerly or syrupy but it seems like when you're speaking to your H (the one who is supposed to be the love of your life) you could tone it down a little. JMHO

BTW- we're celebrating 33 years this year.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 12:20 AM
Six days ago, I wrote my first post hours before flying up here to see my H, and I was loaded for bear. I was marshalling the defenses I collected over the last several months to keep the resentment I have been collecting over the last several years company, and if he DARED bring up the A to ME, he was going to hear every single one of them which would have been, shall we say, NOT HELPFUL. I got to the airport, checked the forum and thought �some people have a lot of nerve!� Checked the forum on the hour layover and thought wtf, they can�t ALL be wrong. On the drive from the airport I was weeping when I kissed his hand and thanked him for being willing to try. I had lost the war.. Continuing to fight with you all the first couple of days gave my brain a chance to process that I had lost the war. The days after that, you taught me that there shouldn�t be a war.

You saved my H and my M and me unending pain. I am truly humbled.

I blew up a little last night � thanks to the relief well and incredible wisdom of this forum, it was the good sort of blow. The dam is broken. We are rolling our eyes and giggling about the terms like Love Busters, but that�s ok. We are filling out the questionnaires and talking about them. Just starting I know, and I don�t relish the process, but we will get through it. We always do.

Will be coming back with questions as they arise, but not to vent � as much.

princessmeggy, I am not nearly as combative as I appear here. I'm actually pretty funny -- some of my dry humor hasn't been understood here which is to be expected in this context. I say that stuff only when I can make it funny. Thanks for the reminder to keep the tone right.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 05:28 AM
Saddest,

Yeah, I thought Love Busters and Love Bank were pretty lame when I found this site. A bit "touchy feely" if you know what I mean. BUT...over the years the terms develop meaning and they become shorthand for things much deeper.

As you and your H progress, I think the same will happen to you. As I mentioned to you earlier, this stuff offers you and your H a common lexicon to express what you feel, what you need, what you want, and what you want to give to your spouse. Hopefully, you both will learn it and communicate much better.

You know when you are really turning the corner when YOU bring up the affair and start talking about it to your H, about what you have learned and how your perspective has changed. You will know he has turned the corner when he can listen and only tighten up a little bit. smile

I will leave by simply stating the obvious. It isn't as important what happened in the past but what each of you have learned from it that will make your life better.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 01:28 PM
Quote
Six days ago, I wrote my first post hours before flying up here to see my H, and I was loaded for bear. I was marshalling the defenses I collected over the last several months to keep the resentment I have been collecting over the last several years company, and if he DARED bring up the A to ME, he was going to hear every single one of them which would have been, shall we say, NOT HELPFUL. I got to the airport, checked the forum and thought �some people have a lot of nerve!� Checked the forum on the hour layover and thought wtf, they can�t ALL be wrong. On the drive from the airport I was weeping when I kissed his hand and thanked him for being willing to try. I had lost the war.. Continuing to fight with you all the first couple of days gave my brain a chance to process that I had lost the war. The days after that, you taught me that there shouldn�t be a war.

You saved my H and my M and me unending pain. I am truly humbled.

I blew up a little last night � thanks to the relief well and incredible wisdom of this forum, it was the good sort of blow. The dam is broken. We are rolling our eyes and giggling about the terms like Love Busters, but that�s ok. We are filling out the questionnaires and talking about them. Just starting I know, and I don�t relish the process, but we will get through it. We always do.


Awesome!! hurray
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 03:11 PM
No need to come back with questions. I found that the best way to learn MB principles is by reading and replying to other peoples threads. Sapph and I will spend UA time reading and replying to threads together. I really enjoy her learning all these things, and she has learned a lot by commenting on others forums.

There are still tons of things on this website that you two can check out.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 03:40 PM
Did you end up counseling with the Harleys?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 10:01 PM
We have an appointment scheduled with the harleys. I am not sure what is going to happen on that front. If it turns out my H is not going to be traveling as much as he originally thought we will continue with the MC at home when we go back in a month, another problem. I REALLY don't want to do the phone thing for reasons too complex to go into here. I have an extremely hard time talking on the phone with people I know well about emotional matters - Im not sure I can do it with a total stranger. I think the deal killer on the harleys will likely be that I won't go the a mental health professional who takes written notes. I have excellent reasons for that too which are again too complicated to go into here. I don't know that the Harleys take notes, but most do. I guess I need to call on the phone to find out. The MC at home does not take notes, we both like him and he is face to face.

I'm not making excuses here - if it comes down to it, I'll try to work through my phone phobia. The note thing is a deal killer, period.

I'm going to have to decide whether to leave my H for a week to go to Boston to take care of my 83 year old dad while my 80 year old mother whom I despise has row major heart surgeries. Don't know the right thing to do - all other issues aside, I have x amount of emotional resources and contact with my mother leaves me emotionally depleted for days....
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/16/10 10:47 PM
These were the questions I asked you about in the other thread that I thought you said you would answer. Maybe there was some confusion. Here they are:

Originally Posted by sexymamabear
Did you write the no contact letter and ask your husband to approve and mail it?

What lifestyle changes have you made to eliminate any avenues for OM to contact you if he decides to?

Do you understand what EPs (extraordinary precautions) are? If so, explain them here so we can make sure you understand them.

These are things that need done immediately. Often WS's want to skip these and jump right into emotional needs. You cannot skip these steps.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/17/10 11:11 PM
I wrote OM an email startling similar to the one in SAA. My H is fine with it.

H & I are together in a different state 24/7, and will be for the next month plus, except for the week trip it looks like I am going to have to take to Boston to help out my dad.

The only avenue OM has is my cell phone. I haven't heard from him and don't think I will. If I do I will change the number, but I have a GREAT cell phone number.

EP's are steps taken to ensure no further contact, like moving, changing email and cell phone, changing jobs, etc.

I don't just want to skip this step -- I want to skip them all..... (that was a joke). Talking about my EN's with my H is about as palatable as talking about the A.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/17/10 11:17 PM
EPs are a lot more than just that. What EPs are in place to ensure that this will not happen again with a new OM?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/17/10 11:22 PM
Guess I haven't gotten that far in the book.....
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/17/10 11:25 PM
Not just from the book. There is a lot of it on threads and on this site. Learning is so much fun, isn't it? laugh
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 12:16 AM
Scotland is right, that is not enough. It looks like you are addressing the NC issue, not the EPs, which shows your BH that your recognize your failure to protect the M and what steps you are taking to affair-proof the M into the future.

Please read this:
Extraordinary Precautions
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The only avenue OM has is my cell phone. I haven't heard from him and don't think I will.

It only takes ONE avenue, one moment, one thought and you are right back in the affair. It doesn't matter that you THINK he won't contact you, it matters that you lose that avenue. Close it. Seal it tight. LEAVE NO STONE UN- TURNED!!!!!

Quote
If I do I will change the number,

It's not a matter of "IF".....it's a matter of "WHEN"......


Quote
but I have a GREAT cell phone number.

This is a PATHETIC excuse.......I can imagine your conversation (because I had the SAME one with H.....) with your H..."well honey I know I had an affair and ripped your heart out but my phone number is great. Everyone knows it.....it would be a hassle......"......We BS's just "enjoy" these conversations ourselves......... MrRollieEyes

Plug that hole up SW........

Not
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:14 AM
So I read the thread on EP's and honestly either I have already done it, except the cell phone, or it simply doesn't apply. We have no separate anything, I'm a mom, he works at home, I rarely go anywhere, etc.

I can always set up another email address, borrow a cell phone, even go buy one. Part of the appeal of the A for me was the intellectual challenge. I'm going to have to exercise some discipline regardless.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:17 AM
SW, you had an A. That means that you weren't doing SOMETHING right in regards to affair proofing your marriage. THAT is where you have to plug up the holes.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:18 AM
How did you have your affair? Sorry if you answered this before.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:41 AM
Quote
I can always set up another email address, borrow a cell phone, even go buy one. Part of the appeal of the A for me was the intellectual challenge.

Guess what???......

This is not something WE Betrayed Spouse's don't already know. While you, the wayward think you were so smart in duping us the first time, once the cat is out, we aren't so quick to trust you again.

The biggest thing BS's want to see from the Wayward is the WILLINGNESS to change. You above answer shows not only a lack of willingness but laziness.........

Quote
I'm going to have to exercise some discipline regardless.

You SHOULD have done that the FIRST time around....but you DIDN'T.... MrRollieEyes

From this whole post, if *I* were you poor, betrayed H, I would go directly to D.....

Not2fun
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
How did you have your affair? Sorry if you answered this before.

He was some random stranger in a bar......
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:56 AM
Well, not2fun, maybe that is exactly what he should do.

Or maybe that is exactly what I should do.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Well, not2fun, maybe that is exactly what he should do.

Or maybe that is exactly what I should do.

Your sarcasm isn't winning you any brownie points, so knock it off......

You can give us a million reasons in the world about why you can't or won't or shouldn't have to do certain EPs.....however it all boils down to half-azz measures. And your H will eventually see right through it. Do it RIGHT the first time.......

You SAY you want to save this marriage......so SHOW it.......

Not2fun
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 05:10 AM
Actually, I am not being one bit sarcastic.

There are limits on what I am willing to do and for how long.

This forum has helped me recognize that.

My H is emotionally abusive. Trust me. He would agree. He is trying to change -- I see it-- but I trust him about as much as he trusts me.

If I'm not willing to do anything he asks, and I'm just not because I can no longer tolerate being suffocated and emotionally abused, I should divorce.

The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.

I chase the idea round and round my head and I always end up with the same result.

The only paradigm I can come up with that may save it is if we abandon the win/lose approach. If he wants to put a GPS on my car and I don't want him to but let him anyway, it is a win in his column. In 35 years, you develop a lot of spread sheets with this approach.

If we decided to take certain actions together, that's different. But that isn't the way it works.

I'm thinking I need to stay off this forum if I want to develop a different paradigm because I hear a lot about all the things I have to do for him, and not one syllable about what it might be reasonable to expect him to do for me.

Like, maybe, be nice to me for an entire 24 hours. What a concept. And before you get all hot and bothered, I have been wanting him to be nice to me for 24 hours for years.

And then I think I better stay on here because it is helping me to decide whether there is anything left to work with.

Yesterday, the answer was no because he was a jerk. Today, the answer is no because you all are asking me to do stuff I'm not willing to do that HE hasn't asked me to do. When enough no's get added up in a row, I'll file.

I don't know that this is a good place for the WS to come because there doesn't seem to be any balance at all in what is said. For example, I wish someone had said to me early on that when H is being hateful I should say "I understand you are angry and in pain, but you are saying things that are hurting our marriage and I want to save our marriage so I am leaving for now but I want to talk when we are both calm." That seems reasonable and consistent with the SAA approach. What I heard was sit there and take it because you deserve it. However true that might be, it didn't help matters even a little bit. I wish I I had understood that to sit there and take it was hurting our chances of reconciliation. Damage done now, but you folks might want to consider that. Or not.

What I won't do is cheat again. I'll divorce him first.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 05:42 AM
You do things because they are the right thing to do and you know they will make your marriage better in the long run, not ONLY because your H asks you to.
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 07:05 AM
SW,

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Actually, I am not being one bit sarcastic.

There are limits on what I am willing to do and for how long.
Actually, your ACTIONS have already proven that there are NO limits on what you will or won't do to make YOURSELF happy.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H is emotionally abusive. Trust me. He would agree. He is trying to change -- I see it-- but I trust him about as much as he trusts me.

Prove it! Bring you husband here so we can finally hear the other side of the story. He could obviously use the support since your approach has been seriously lacking in compassion or humility.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.

I chase the idea round and round my head and I always end up with the same result.

The only paradigm I can come up with that may save it is if we abandon the win/lose approach. If he wants to put a GPS on my car and I don't want him to but let him anyway, it is a win in his column. In 35 years, you develop a lot of spread sheets with this approach.

If we decided to take certain actions together, that's different. But that isn't the way it works.
Wrong again! The ONLY way you A proof your M is through EPs and working together toward building romantic love between you. Keeping score is gonna get you no where fast, which you think you would have already learned. It's not about winning and losing or some ridiculous power struggle as you are portraying it. The only way either of you win is if you work together to rebuild from the ground up.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm thinking I need to stay off this forum if I want to develop a different paradigm because I hear a lot about all the things I have to do for him, and not one syllable about what it might be reasonable to expect him to do for me.
Wow, that is just awesome. Twenty-five plus pages and all your concerned about is what YOUR gonna get out of it. I'm shocked that you are still in the ME ME ME phase after reading the MB principles.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Like, maybe, be nice to me for an entire 24 hours. What a concept. And before you get all hot and bothered, I have been wanting him to be nice to me for 24 hours for years.

And then I think I better stay on here because it is helping me to decide whether there is anything left to work with.
Like I said...prove it. Bring you BH here so we can get his side of the story. Otherwise, this is just more blameshifting, excuse making and history rewriting to cover up for your actions. I HIGHLY doubt from the tone and condescendence of your words here that you have been the poor abused wife you are portraying yourself to be. Maybe it's just the written word, but I don't think so. SW, you own 50% of the condition of the M pre-a. You contibuted just as much BAD things in your M as your BH.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I don't know that this is a good place for the WS to come because there doesn't seem to be any balance at all in what is said. For example, I wish someone had said to me early on that when H is being hateful I should say "I understand you are angry and in pain, but you are saying things that are hurting our marriage and I want to save our marriage so I am leaving for now but I want to talk when we are both calm." That seems reasonable and consistent with the SAA approach. What I heard was sit there and take it because you deserve it. However true that might be, it didn't help matters even a little bit. I wish I I had understood that to sit there and take it was hurting our chances of reconciliation. Damage done now, but you folks might want to consider that. Or not.

Sorry, you're not gonna be handled with kid gloves here. Being told directly just how appalling your actions have been is what needs to happen for you to take a HARD look in the mirror and own your part in your circumstances. And believe me when I tell you, there is absolutely NOTHING more hateful than the pain and hurt you have inflicted on the man you vowed to love, honor and cherish. You want to cry foul over harsh words after you where the one that CHOOSE to wield the most damaging weapon of all. You ripped out your BH's heart and you still can't for the life of you show compassion over it. Your words here betray you SW. You are as transparent as glass right now and every BS here is seeing right through you. It's still all about you, which is what got you into this mess in the first place.

Let me ask you this SW...if this is what we see from the words you have written here don't you think it is reasonable to assume that is what your BH is seeing too since he's the one M to you??? Something for you to think about...or not.

Want2Stay
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 07:50 AM
So, if he's not going to be nice to you you're going to keep having an affair. But then you turn around and say you'll divorce him before you have another affair.

So you're going to divorce him unless he starts to be nice to you?

If he's so emotionally abusive, why are you still with him?
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 12:19 PM
Quote
The only paradigm I can come up with that may save it is if we abandon the win/lose approach. If he wants to put a GPS on my car and I don't want him to but let him anyway, it is a win in his column. In 35 years, you develop a lot of spread sheets with this approach.
A "win" in his column? Let's see... he puts a GPS on your car... that means he feels more secure in your whereabouts (a win for him), and it means you're less likely to face unwarranted suspicion from him (a win for you). A successful EP. Another small step forward on the road to restoring your relationship. That's win-win. Not win-lose. Saddest, can you really not see that?

As I said yesterday, you're keeping long accounts. You keep talking about "years" of neglect. How many years back does your speadsheet's "Table of Wrongs He Committed Against Me" extend? Does the spreadsheet ever get cleared? In other words, has your paradigm no place for forgiveness? Seems to me you can't bring yourself to say you want it, or behave like you want it, because you can't put yourself in his shoes long enough to grant it.

That is a lose-lose paradigm. Keep it up and, at the end, you'll be left with a very long spreadsheet table.

He hasn't been nice to you for 24 hours in "years"? I frankly doubt the accuracy of that statement. But anyway, you want "nice" from him now, in the wake of your affair (which for him has been akin to an F-5 emotional tornado), and he doesn't feel very nice, and he could sure use your help in picking up the emotional wreckage & salvaging some things (like, his marriage); and yet you've made that help conditional.

The thing about MB is, you (personally) need to be all-in for it to work. It would also help if you & your H could be speaking the same language. Have you asked your H to come on here?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 12:48 PM
What a good example you are of someone who is well educated and intelligent getting in their own way.

It's very clear in many of your posts that you "think you know better" than MB advice.

That coupled with the excuses and blame shifting any time you are faced with having to do anything that makes you uncomfortable is NOT going to help you save your M.

Your M is on life support because of your affair. Do you GET this?

Hearing your excuses about why you don't need EPs and don't want to counsel with the Harleys is a huge indication to me that you DON'T GET IT.

If you were to counsel with the Harleys, they would tell your H to stop lovebusting you. They would tell him how damaging this is to your M. They would also give him support by outlining a solid plan to make him feel safe again and give him some hope that you two can restore the love in your M. He NEEDS this right now. Do you GET this?
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 12:54 PM
SW, your husband hasn't asked you to do some of the things that the posters on here have asked you to, because he doesn't KNOW what to ask for. MOST "normal" people don't know how to recover after an affair. All of my friends and family told me to cut and run. "Once a cheater, always a cheater." I know that that doesn't HAVE to be it. I know that, through MB, it IS possible to recover from an affair AND to have a better marriage than I had BEFORE.

I may never recover my marriage, and I have learned to be okay with that. I hate for you to throw away your chance to have an exceptional marriage. The only cost to you is to listen to the people on here and do what they suggest. Why won't you take that chance? What are you scared of?

No one here suggests that you live in an abusive marriage. We are reluctant to listen to your words right now about that abuse because we have heard our own WSs history re-write. While it is true that you didn't have an exceptional marriage before and your husband was most likely guilty of committing emotional abuse on you in the past, you have used these emotional abuses as your justifications in your mind. Until you see that there was NO justification for the choice you made, you will continue to blame your spouse.

Saying that you do not blame your husband for your choice to have an affair and then saying that the is never nice to you and he hasn't been nice to you for "years." THESE are actions that speak louder than words. You continue to blame.

BTW, I will not be to blame if you decide that you want to DIVORCE your husband because you are unwilling to do any of the things that the other wise posters have suggested to you. I have my own marriage to be responsible for, and that is ENOUGH.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm thinking I need to stay off this forum if I want to develop a different paradigm because I hear a lot about all the things I have to do for him, and not one syllable about what it might be reasonable to expect him to do for me.
HUH???

Have you read the basic concepts?????

Meeting ENs and avoiding Lovebusters. This isn't rocket science.

But for heaven's sakes...you had an AFFAIR. He is on the floor bleeding because of the injury you inflicted on him. You want him to get up and make you feel good about yourself when you haven't done ANY of the steps that are designed for you to begin the process of healing this injury.

Stop making this more complicated than it has to be.

The Harleys have been doing this for a long time AND KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DO about how to save a marriage.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 01:29 PM
saddest,

you want you BH to "be nice" to you after you have ripped his heart out and stomped it into the ground? But you are not willing to put EP's in place to fix your M, because he is upset with you.....


WOW! You are still in the FOG. Have you recently been in contact with OM?

A few days ago you seemed to recognize that it was your weaknesses that lead to the A. Now it is your H's fault again?

You said that being on the forum was your way of "Not texting" and now you want to take a "break"?

Ok you said your H is not being nice to you. How much UA time are you spending together? In SAA Dr. Harley says that not spending enough time together can lead to irritability. It may not affect your relationship today, but the time will affect your relationship down the road. But he also said it takes a while to rebuild your lovebank after an affair. If you have read it, you have read about Sue and John. He said it took them several months to be comfortable again after the A and that was only after they consistently spent enough UA time together doing things that were enjoyable.

Have the 2 of you started recreational companionship? Are your most enjoyable moments being spent with your BH, or with yourself? If they are with yourself, then you need to cut it out and spend that time with him.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Actually, I am not being one bit sarcastic.

There are limits on what I am willing to do and for how long.

This forum has helped me recognize that.

My H is emotionally abusive. Trust me. He would agree. He is trying to change -- I see it-- but I trust him about as much as he trusts me.

Don't let yourself off the hook. By having an affair, you've proven that you are as abusive as you assert your H is, so don't deflect by pointing out his faults.

You can only control your own behavior, not his.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
If I'm not willing to do anything he asks, and I'm just not because I can no longer tolerate being suffocated and emotionally abused, I should divorce.
Perhaps you should. If you are unable to promise to be a safe, non-abusive person towards your husband, then yes, it may be better to divorce him, than risk exposing him to your further abuse.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.
Really? Let's look at this. You are saying your behavior is a result of his behavior.

Are you willing to give him the same formula? After all, if he said the only way to abuse proof the marriage is for you to find a way to be nice to him, would you accept that? Probably not.

So what you are saying here is it's ok for you to blame shift, but he's not allowed.

I call BS. Own your own behavior. If you can't promise and deliver on the promise not to further abuse him with more affairs, then you are not marriage material.

Think about it. Any argument you use, you have to be willing to live with your husband using the same construct. Otherwise, it's a double standard. So if you blame your affairs on him, then you have to be willing to taking the blame for the abuse you say he perpetrates.

Since I'm confident you are not willing to take the blame for his behavior, have the character not to blame him for your mis-behavior, present, past or even future behaviors.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I chase the idea round and round my head and I always end up with the same result.
Perhaps it's because you are looking external. You are blaming your husband for both his bad behavior and your bad behavior. Why not do something different and own your own behavior. Stop blaming him for your affair, and stop saying that your fidelity is hinged on his behavior.

Your fidelity is hinged on nothing more than your personal character.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The only paradigm I can come up with that may save it is if we abandon the win/lose approach. If he wants to put a GPS on my car and I don't want him to but let him anyway, it is a win in his column. In 35 years, you develop a lot of spread sheets with this approach.

If we decided to take certain actions together, that's different. But that isn't the way it works.
That's the POJA, you develop solutions you both can agree upon. So what is preventing you from developing a solution?

He has a legitimate need to build trust. If you don't want a GPS tracker, then provide something that he will agree to that guarantees he can trust you.

The problem is trust. The problem is not a GPS tracker. So what can you offer that promotes trust? If you are not willing to prove you are a trustworthy spouse, then yes, he would be better off not being married to you anymore.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm thinking I need to stay off this forum if I want to develop a different paradigm because I hear a lot about all the things I have to do for him, and not one syllable about what it might be reasonable to expect him to do for me.
Largely because he's not here. It doesn't do any of us any good to tell you what he should or shouldn't be doing. The largest rock in the jar is your affair right now. You just went nuclear in a conventional war.

We don't even know if he's really abusing you, or if you are re-writing history. I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but frankly, you are still so foggy, I'm not sure I'd trust you with my German Shepherd dog who can take care of himself.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Like, maybe, be nice to me for an entire 24 hours. What a concept. And before you get all hot and bothered, I have been wanting him to be nice to me for 24 hours for years.
I'm sure you have. Unfortunately, you've done something to him that has an emotional weight greater than any abuse or even rape. So to expect him to be nice to you right now is about as realistic as expecting a rape victim to be nice to her attacker.

If you wanted him to be nice, you picked an odd way to realize that goal by emotionally destroying your husband.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
And then I think I better stay on here because it is helping me to decide whether there is anything left to work with.
Based on what you've written so far, I think you need to look inside yourself and decide if you can be a safe partner for your husband. The largest part of your problem is that you are the criminal right now, and you are looking to your victim for compensation for your hurts. You have no apparent regard for your victim. Therefore, YOU are the one who is the most unsafe partner at this time.

Yet you insist on focusing on his faults, his short comings. I wouldn't blame him if he dumped you. In fact, I'd advise him to do so. At this point, you are not marriage material. You are "ME" material. It's all about you, your hurts, your disappointments, your regrets.

So if you can't meet your husbands needs, protect him from your LB's, and put into place extra ordinary precautions to protect him from further abuse, you should let him go and let him find someone who will do those things.
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Yesterday, the answer was no because he was a jerk. Today, the answer is no because you all are asking me to do stuff I'm not willing to do that HE hasn't asked me to do. When enough no's get added up in a row, I'll file.
More blame. If you file, it's because YOU'VE given up. If you choose to file, it falls 100% on you. You cannot go through life blaming others for the choices you make. If you are unwilling to love your husband, that's 100% on you. If you are unwilling to pledge fidelity, that's 100% on you. If you are unwilling to come to grips with the abusive nature of your affair and the damage that it has done, that's 100% on you.

You will fall into the same pattern if you continue to live your life blaming others for your choices and circumstances.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I don't know that this is a good place for the WS to come because there doesn't seem to be any balance at all in what is said. For example, I wish someone had said to me early on that when H is being hateful I should say "I understand you are angry and in pain, but you are saying things that are hurting our marriage and I want to save our marriage so I am leaving for now but I want to talk when we are both calm." That seems reasonable and consistent with the SAA approach. What I heard was sit there and take it because you deserve it. However true that might be, it didn't help matters even a little bit. I wish I I had understood that to sit there and take it was hurting our chances of reconciliation. Damage done now, but you folks might want to consider that. Or not.

What I won't do is cheat again. I'll divorce him first.

But you didn't do that, so you have to live with the path you've chosen.

No one is saying you are a bad person, or deserve bad. What folks are trying to tell you is that you are responsible for the choices you make. If you choose to betray your spouse, you have the heaviest lifting to clean up the mess.

He didn't choose the affair, so to expect him to do the majority of the work is insane. Again, it's expecting the victim of a crime to cater to the criminal.

You can have the marriage you are or were dreaming about, but only if you are willing to do the work. It appears you are not. So maybe the best thing to do, based on your displayed attitude is to tell your husband that you are not marriage material and that you would like to free him from your selfish abuse.

Because if you choose to divorce and abandon him after what you've done to him, that's exactly what you are doing with your actions.

The choice is yours. You can honor your vows, clean up the mess you made and work towards the marriage you say you want. Or you can blame shift and bail on your commitment.

I can tell you, if you choose to bail, any subsequent marriages will likely end up the same way, you blaming your spouse for your faults, and eventually you'll once again feel entitled to any means of obtaining gratification.

If you want to end up here again in the future, quit the program now. If you don't, then do the hard work needed to Marriage Build.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:02 PM
This isn't hard. This is about pride. And way too much time in the courtroom. Guess what? This isn't Law and Order. There are no plea bargains or mitigating circumstances. You cheated. And it was wrong. And not only do you have too much pride to really step up to this truth...I believe you honestly think that prowess in the courtroom ranks you above strangers in a forum. Well, from one MENSA member to another, let me tell you you are grossly misinformed.

You can lay down the arrogance and debate 101 tricks...or you can lose your marriage and spend the rest of your life telling yourself it was all your H's fault.

The prosecution rests.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
For example, I wish someone had said to me early on that when H is being hateful I should say "I understand you are angry and in pain, but you are saying things that are hurting our marriage and I want to save our marriage so I am leaving for now but I want to talk when we are both calm." That seems reasonable and consistent with the SAA approach. What I heard was sit there and take it because you deserve it. However true that might be, it didn't help matters even a little bit. I wish I I had understood that to sit there and take it was hurting our chances of reconciliation. Damage done now, but you folks might want to consider that. Or not.
More blame shifting and history rewrite.

WHERE did someone say "sit there and take it"?

I went back and in the first few pages saw several people addressing your complaints about your H abusing you, ranging from asking for clarification on what exactly was happening...to calling the coaching center...to having your H post here... ALL OF WHICH WAS IGNORED as far as I could see.

And since the problem with your H lovebusting was as simple as requesting that he stop, the problem should be solved, right?
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 04:53 PM
"I cheated, and it was wrong, but I am less wrong than my H, and all of you are not logical to expect me to humble myself. I will continue assert my rights until I win. And make no mistake, I always win."

This is what I hear. This is a recipe for divorce. This may intimidate a witness, but it will not intimidate people who have walked the path.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 05:12 PM
I can't figure out how you do that block thing to respond to parts of posts.

I don't think I am smarter than the members of this forum -- if I were I wouldn't be in this mess. I grew up in a family where intellectual accomplishment wasn't A measure of worth -- it was the ONLY measure of worth. Two brothers who are doctors and me and my sister lawyers. Statistically improbable. I don't intellectualize because I think I am smarter. I do it because it is safe. Emotions are scary, messy things to me. I am learning a new language here.

Susieq -- you are exactly right. Which is why I keep showing up and spouting off my nonsense. What I hear from my H is sometimes also not what is being said -- a function of, among other things, years of defenses.

But enough of ancient history and theoretical BS. I have a real problem I have been tap dancing around and I need HELP.

This trip to Boston to help my 83 year old dad while my 80 year old mother, whom I despise, has two heart surgeries is a land mine. If ever I am going to contact OM, it will be during this week -- it is too soon for me to be in this position. My dad gets confused and needs help with cabs, etc. They both need help understanding what the doctors are saying. My mother is an emotional vampire who could teach Passive/Aggressive Behavior As An Art Form at a post graduate level. She is furious with me for virtually cutting off contact with her several months ago (a decision reached with my therapist) and I can hardly wait to see how that is manifested. I'm going to be spending a lot of emotional capital on dealing with her that I need for my H.

My flight instincts with my H are still strong -- I told him something that made me feel vulnerable last night and when I found myself tearing up, I unconsciously reached for the seat belt to get out of the car which was going 75 miles an hour.

My sister and I have historically handled our parents health issues as a team -- when we are both there, it keeps my mother in line and when one of us is worn out with her, the other can pick up the ball. But my sister just started a new job after over a year of being unemployed. One brother cut off contact with my mother years ago, and has openly declared he will not be a source of support of any sort in her old age. The other brother is an ER professor at a medical school and can't get the time off. So I'm it.

My instincts tell me this is something I need to deal with on my own, but I'm pretty sure my instincts are dead wrong and I need to talk to my H about my fears. The thought of that conversation fills me with existential dread -- I don't know what's there, but I don't want to find out. I need to know the words to say to bring it up, and be ready for what his responses might be.

I don't see how I can go, but I don't see how I cannot go. It is very serious -- if my mother dies, my dad will be there all alone. I don't see that as an option, but maybe it is.

And I'm really curious whether this post will be received as another "me me me" post.

Help!
Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 05:57 PM
Can your H accompany you on the trip?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I can't figure out how you do that block thing to respond to parts of posts.

I don't think I am smarter than the members of this forum -- if I were I wouldn't be in this mess. I grew up in a family where intellectual accomplishment wasn't A measure of worth -- it was the ONLY measure of worth. Two brothers who are doctors and me and my sister lawyers. Statistically improbable. I don't intellectualize because I think I am smarter. I do it because it is safe. Emotions are scary, messy things to me. I am learning a new language here.

Susieq -- you are exactly right. Which is why I keep showing up and spouting off my nonsense. What I hear from my H is sometimes also not what is being said -- a function of, among other things, years of defenses.

But enough of ancient history and theoretical BS. I have a real problem I have been tap dancing around and I need HELP.

This trip to Boston to help my 83 year old dad while my 80 year old mother, whom I despise, has two heart surgeries is a land mine. If ever I am going to contact OM, it will be during this week -- it is too soon for me to be in this position. My dad gets confused and needs help with cabs, etc. They both need help understanding what the doctors are saying. My mother is an emotional vampire who could teach Passive/Aggressive Behavior As An Art Form at a post graduate level. She is furious with me for virtually cutting off contact with her several months ago (a decision reached with my therapist) and I can hardly wait to see how that is manifested. I'm going to be spending a lot of emotional capital on dealing with her that I need for my H.

My flight instincts with my H are still strong -- I told him something that made me feel vulnerable last night and when I found myself tearing up, I unconsciously reached for the seat belt to get out of the car which was going 75 miles an hour.

My sister and I have historically handled our parents health issues as a team -- when we are both there, it keeps my mother in line and when one of us is worn out with her, the other can pick up the ball. But my sister just started a new job after over a year of being unemployed. One brother cut off contact with my mother years ago, and has openly declared he will not be a source of support of any sort in her old age. The other brother is an ER professor at a medical school and can't get the time off. So I'm it.

My instincts tell me this is something I need to deal with on my own, but I'm pretty sure my instincts are dead wrong and I need to talk to my H about my fears. The thought of that conversation fills me with existential dread -- I don't know what's there, but I don't want to find out. I need to know the words to say to bring it up, and be ready for what his responses might be.

I don't see how I can go, but I don't see how I cannot go. It is very serious -- if my mother dies, my dad will be there all alone. I don't see that as an option, but maybe it is.

And I'm really curious whether this post will be received as another "me me me" post.

Help!

Have you asked your BH to go with you? Say, 'BH, I am not accustomed to asking for help, but I am trying to change bad patterns so I am asking you, please come to Boston and help me with my parents. Help me by being with me during this very emotionally exhausting trip.'
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 08:40 PM
Saddest,

Let't take care of the easy stuff first. To quote someone you can type the following (i'll use parenthesis rather than the block which makes it work. (quote) copy in anything you want and then (/unquote). If you sub [ for ( you will get it to work. You will also notice a quotation mark at the top of the input window. Click on that and you will see the proper (quote) (/quote) pair show up. Cut and paste anything you want and it will be a quote.

There are some other ways to do this and some that will also list who made the quote.

You may want to understand that the Harleys consider what they do as "coaching" rather than counseling. They address what you are and aren't doing as well as your H, to make the marriage better. They rarely spend much time delving into one's past emotional history, but please do ask them about this whole thing. I believe you and your H will be surprised...plesantly so.


JL
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 08:49 PM
saddestwife,

You really don't have to know how to quote to tell folks they are right. You really don't have to know how to quote to say, "Yes, I can see how I come across as selfish, foggy, etc."

You don't have to know how to quote to accept the reality of folks who have been on one side or the other of an affair.

You have both here. You have folks who've engaged in the affair who are responding to you. You have folks who've been on the receiving end of a betrayal.

Both are telling you the same thing.

So no more excuses. You don't need to quote anyone to say, yes I understand that I alone am responsible for my behavior, and I alone am responsible for my behavior in the future as well.


No need for any technical background to write those words.


They are a lot harder to live. But it starts with saying them and believing them.
Posted By: Trust_Will_Come Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 09:06 PM
Hi Saddest. I have been following your thread but haven't commented til now.

Just wanted to say that adult kids ARE allowed to not be there for every illness their parents experience. Obviously your siblings feel okay with that, and you are in a very bad spot right now. Going without your husband is a bad idea. Going to a stressful, emotional environment when you are still foggy may be too much. So have you and your siblings looked into having someone come in to care for your parents during this time? I believe you said your parents are in the Boston area. It shouldn't be too hard to find a reputable company in an urban area like that and since you all are professionals, the cost shouldn't be overwhelming cut 4 ways. Your mom may not like it, but its not like it will damage your relationship more than she already has. Just a thought.

This situation is what POJAs are all about: working thru a dilemma with your spouse to come to an acceptable solution for you both. Time to start practicing!
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 09:14 PM
SadW:

It sounds like your mother trained you well.

As well as your brothers and sisters.

And stop engaging. It takes TWO to have an arguement.

If your mother calls you selfish, or whatever see does to provoke you, just say "thank you". Then pause and ask; "Would you like me to change your diaper?" Or whatever you are there to do for her and your dad. "Can I get you some tea, or a snack? Or your pain medicine?

Or, how about this: have your parents hire a "full time" care giver. Someone who will stay with them, has some medical experience, and can take them to Drs, therapy, manage RX'S, Etc. You and hour siblings can split the cost.

It will be a lot easier for you.

And your description of your R with your mother sounds like why you get the squirmys when you try to discuss something that is personal... if you said to your mother: "I feel...", or "I think..." YOU would probably get raked over the coals by your mother, so, it was easier to hide it, wasn't it? And since this worked @ 7 years old, its ok to still use it.

NO ITS NOT.

Your behaviors TODAY are selected TODAY. Sure things in the past may have conditioned you to act certain ways, but you do not HAVE to act those ways anymore.

Just so you know, MB could stand for Modified Behaviors, because THAT is what it teaches. Doing the smae things over and over and expecting different results is insanity. So STOP the insanity.

Do things different.

Ask your HUSBAND WHAT he would suggest would be the right thing to do about your mom. And then consider that. Let HIM finish his thoughts. It may have been awhile.

And MB is NOT about navel gazing. If your BH had NEVER been nice to you for 24 hours, then you be the sweetest woman you can be for three days and see what happens.

Change and Own your own behaviors, then start expexting different behaviors from your BH.

Change your phone number. So WHAT if it is a "GREAT" number. It is your great big blinking sign to OM. "You can still reach ME!!!!!"

LG
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 10:05 PM
I've talked with my H at length about this. He doesn't want me to go because he doesn't want me to have to go through that with my mother and he knows what a state I will be in when I get back. He says he will be here to help me through it, but really, is that reasonable to expect? Seems like we will both be spending emotional resources desperately needed out of a sense of duty.

But H wants it to be my decision -- he is visibly trying. Astonishing really how quickly my resentment is fades when I see his effort to listen and be sensitive and caring. It all feels awkward and stilted, but that's to be expected.

The day I ended the A was my mother's 80th birthday. I knew I had to get out of there and be with my H, so I skipped the birthday and got on a plane. This did not go over well with my mother who views it as picking H over her, and that is not allowed. So in addition to all the previous stuff, she now has an agenda on my choice re: my M, which I THINK everyone here would agree was the right one.

Lousygolfer, I would fall on my knees and weep in relief if my mother were to be so honest as to call me selfish. It doesn't work that way -- the message is in how she says it, not what she says. The words sound OK -- but the delivery tells another story. I am so phone adverse because I had to learn at an early age how to read visual clues -- one of the things that made me a good trial lawyer.

I don't think I'm going to go. I think it is too dangerous on too many levels. Or, to put it in MB terms, going would be a decision of mutually unenthusiastic agreement.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 10:08 PM
You are not enthusiastic about going, neither is he. He may allow it, but he's not enthusiastic about it.

So don't go.

I know, easier for me to say than for you to do. But the POJA requires enthusiasm, and I don't get that from what you've written here.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/18/10 10:28 PM
Saddest,

Despite our disagreement yesterday over the attitude of younger women (and an oops because for some reason I thought you were really younger like in early 30s - but then did notice you have been married 25 years - and this is Not meant to be an affront), I think you should go.

Look, this may not be MB, but I now feel for you in that you have an older parent, no matter your R with you mom, who is at some risk, and so is your Dad. What you posted here now leads me to feel some disregard for you H. No matter how I felt about my W, and no matter what, I would not and could not feel I could even try to disuade my W from visiting her mom when she died 6 years ago. She was not in an affair or revovering from it at time, but even if she was I would not stand in way of parent and child.

So, you have an older son and dau. Could not one of them accompany you? The are your family. I understand the distance by your siblings. That does not mean they could not help you financially with the trip or to have at least a caregive fly with you or meet you there in Boston.

I think you are stronger than this quite frankly. I do believe if something happened to your mom or your dad at this time it would result in a serious resentment toward your husband for perhaps the rest of your life. Your concern about your husband over his feelings needs to stand down at this time; your need to be with you parents needs to be foremost. Please reconsider what You need to do..Okay.

Sorry about yesterday, but best regards.

Tom



Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
What I won't do is cheat again. I'll divorce him first.

How Noble.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 12:58 AM
saddest, just a suggestion. Please focus on fixing your own marriage before you start posting to newcomers. People come here in dire straits to save their marriages using Marriage Builders concepts. You have no experience in that!

I know you want to help, but it only causes confusion and disrupts threads when you substitute personal opinion for MB concepts.

Please fix yourself FIRST. Thanks, Mel
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:08 AM
As someone who has a.....boundary challenged mother myself, I think that trying to find someone to care for your mom and you staying put is a good call. I hear you about "how" your mother says things. My mom's favorites were/are "I guess you just need to do what YOU think is right" or "Is THAT what you're wearing/going to do/thinking?" And I knew exactly what it meant. Sick as she may be physically....she will probably try to get inside your head, which isn't good.

And anyway, once we say I Do it is a given that a spouse comes first.
Posted By: black_raven Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
There are limits on what I am willing to do and for how long.

The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.

Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. crazy The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Originally Posted by saddestwife
What I won't do is cheat again. I'll divorce him first.

How Noble.

That's ONLY if he is nice to her, HPB. After all, its only because her H is so mean that she even climbed into another married man's bed..... sigh

Not
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 05:32 AM
MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

For all you know, that man read my post and said "wow, here is a WW telling me what I need to do to help my wife -- I'm now convinced."

I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's -- probably in the range of 90% or higher, and, in turn, the vast majority of those -- probably in the range of 80% or higher, are BW's. The WS are likely split about 80/20 WH/WS, and of those I am guessing 99% of the WH were brought here by their BW.

My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW. The WW's who show up either are quickly guided into line, or they leave. I have done neither because I know there is wisdom here but I am not going to fall into line to achieve a false sense of accomplishment.

Hang on, this is actually not a rant and headed somewhere.

With me, it is real, real time and frequently terminally stupid. But I show up because I am trying to learn a different language, a different way of being.

If there is another WW who has had the c*** beaten out of her and come back day after day spewing her nonsense like I have, I haven't found the thread -- but I'm actively looking.

There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs, and I found not one word suggesting that my feelings are irrelevant or offensive, that if my H wants the "gory details", I must tell him that moment, or that all those "Extraordinary Measures" have the MB imprimatur, or would be even remotely helpful. What I read was this:

"But what most people don't realize is that the wayward spouse... [is] also hurt by the experience. The almost always suffer from acute depression, often with thoughts of suicide." P. 16.

"Instead of focusing on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks." p. 85.

"Demands carry the threat of punishment.... In other words, you may disline doing what I want, but if your don't do it, I'll see that you suffer even greater pain ... demands depend on power." p. 95

"Never expect the other person to suffer or sacrifice so that your need can be met." p. 120

"No spouse has the right to punish the other spouse." p. 157.

"If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to the Rule of Honesty and the Rule of Protection, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, despite past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and learns how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement... it's only a matter of time before the person's spouse trusts them again." p. 160

GPS units, cameras, keyloggers-- not mentioned and actively hostile to the underlying message of SAA, but I'm told by this forum that they are an essential part of the MB Surviving an Affair recovery program and that because I am resistant to doing those things, "Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude." (quote from not2fun)

Huh??? With a couple of exceptions, Extraordinary Measures were presented to me as a requirement for going forward, and the coercive punitive nature could not be farther from the spirit of SAA.

You say I shouldn't post on other forums until I have my own house in order. You say I need to conform to MB principles when I post. Please show me where in the MB principles you find the content of the posts from not2fun and black-raven to me above. Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

The MB affair survival program, which I think is absolutely brilliant and am absolutely committed to, is set up for a BW or the BH to take the lead -- in fact the first two posts I got back were "send your H here". But he wasn't the one showing up begging for help. I was.

You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.

Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.

All you were told was to pls refrain from giving advice until you had sorted your own mess out. Very good advice indeed
Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 06:05 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation.

Hmmm... I, for one, do not see myself this way, and I find that pretty offensive. I know a lot of other FWW's on this forum who do not fit the above mold either. If you would like help, you may want to stop making personal attacks against the people who are trying to help you. Many of your posts come across as condescending.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 07:39 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

For all you know, that man read my post and said "wow, here is a WW telling me what I need to do to help my wife -- I'm now convinced."

I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's -- probably in the range of 90% or higher, and, in turn, the vast majority of those -- probably in the range of 80% or higher, are BW's. The WS are likely split about 80/20 WH/WS, and of those I am guessing 99% of the WH were brought here by their BW.

My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW. The WW's who show up either are quickly guided into line, or they leave. I have done neither because I know there is wisdom here but I am not going to fall into line to achieve a false sense of accomplishment.

Hang on, this is actually not a rant and headed somewhere.

With me, it is real, real time and frequently terminally stupid. But I show up because I am trying to learn a different language, a different way of being.

If there is another WW who has had the c*** beaten out of her and come back day after day spewing her nonsense like I have, I haven't found the thread -- but I'm actively looking.

There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs, and I found not one word suggesting that my feelings are irrelevant or offensive, that if my H wants the "gory details", I must tell him that moment, or that all those "Extraordinary Measures" have the MB imprimatur, or would be even remotely helpful. What I read was this:

"But what most people don't realize is that the wayward spouse... [is] also hurt by the experience. The almost always suffer from acute depression, often with thoughts of suicide." P. 16.

"Instead of focusing on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks." p. 85.

"Demands carry the threat of punishment.... In other words, you may disline doing what I want, but if your don't do it, I'll see that you suffer even greater pain ... demands depend on power." p. 95

"Never expect the other person to suffer or sacrifice so that your need can be met." p. 120

"No spouse has the right to punish the other spouse." p. 157.

"If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to the Rule of Honesty and the Rule of Protection, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, despite past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and learns how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement... it's only a matter of time before the person's spouse trusts them again." p. 160

GPS units, cameras, keyloggers-- not mentioned and actively hostile to the underlying message of SAA, but I'm told by this forum that they are an essential part of the MB Surviving an Affair recovery program and that because I am resistant to doing those things, "Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude." (quote from not2fun)

Huh??? With a couple of exceptions, Extraordinary Measures were presented to me as a requirement for going forward, and the coercive punitive nature could not be farther from the spirit of SAA.

You say I shouldn't post on other forums until I have my own house in order. You say I need to conform to MB principles when I post. Please show me where in the MB principles you find the content of the posts from not2fun and black-raven to me above. Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

The MB affair survival program, which I think is absolutely brilliant and am absolutely committed to, is set up for a BW or the BH to take the lead -- in fact the first two posts I got back were "send your H here". But he wasn't the one showing up begging for help. I was.

You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.


faint
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs, and I found not one word suggesting that my feelings are irrelevant or offensive, that if my H wants the "gory details", I must tell him that moment, or that all those "Extraordinary Measures" have the MB imprimatur, or would be even remotely helpful. What I read was this:

You're nitpicking apart MB. Just so you know that we're not just making this stuff up, go to this link
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html


Quote
Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

The link above goes into thi. And, again, you're putting responsibility on your spouse to ensure that you do not have an affair. If my wife was a witch and I felt she was emotionally abusive, that still does not give me a right to go out and have an affair. I can't say, "well, if you're not nice to me, I'm going to cheat on you." What happens is if a spouse refuses to meet the needs of another spouse, Dr. Harley talks about when it's time to call it quits. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2397872

Again, the way to affair proof your marriage is with extraordinary precautions. You don't get to barter for fidelity.

Quote
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not.


What they're saying is MB has a notoriously large success rate. But the success comes from using MB principles. When we deviate from the principles of MB, then we are deviating from a successful program.

And I will say that while each of us is a bit different from each other and some of us have different stories to tell, nobody is really truely unique. There isn't a situation or even that hasn't already been addressed, posted, or experienced in this forum.

If you'll read a few of the threads here you'll see that a very good number of the women that were waywards are very headstrong and stubborn. They're not the meek, docile people you seem to think they are.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 09:33 AM
Your complete bastardization of SAA is quite disgusting.

Considering its your REFUSAL to do even the bare minimium to save your marriage, is the very REASON I suggest you divorcing your BH.

You want empathy for your position as the adulteress and cheating wife, yet you lack that very SAME empathy for your BETRAYED HUSBAND. The TRUE victim in this mess YOU have created.

And whenever we suggest and tell what NEEDS to be done, you pull out the "emotionally abused victim" card. Its rather repulsive. Not to mention an insult to those who are true abusive victims.

But all of that PALES in comparison of the dribble you wrote above.......

Not2fun

ps...and IF you want to quote me, you SHOULD do it right...I am not responsible for "Just divorce the man then. The rollercoaster hasn't even started yet and you are already dictating how he is allowed to act...talk about emotional blackmail. The man's anger will eat him alive if that is your attitude." (quote from not2fun)".....though, I would have loved to claim that. That honor goes to Black Raven.....
Posted By: AheadOfTheCurve Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 11:14 AM
SW,

I'm very impressed with your ability to cherry pick and take things out of context to construct a straw man that you can point to and say "This is what MB says!"

You're definitely a lawyer, and it seems a pretty good one. The bad news for you is that we can't be eliminated during voire dire. We're not a jury. This group is made up of people who have been where you are right now, either on the offending end, or as the victim of said behavior. We know how destructive A's are, and the high cost of breaking the vows of your M.

But we also know that hard work and following the principles deduced by Dr. Harley through his years of research can result in a M that is fully recovered. The program needs to be taken as a whole, however, since each of the parts compliments the other and is synergistic in its results.

Of course, if all you're interested in is making excuses and trying to justify your behavior, go right ahead. All it does is confirm that old joke about lawyers that ends in the line "A good start."

So just keep on keeping on. You're not going to improve your M situation this way. You might feel better for your justifications, but you're not going to get a hallelujah chorus from the folks who post here. The folks who post here, whether a BH like me, or a BW, or a FWW, or a FWH -- we've seen this crap before, or even spewed it ourselves.

We know it's b.s. because we lived it. And you're going to get called on it. Sorry to bust up your little orgy of self-serving rhetoric.

Spend less time on rationalizing your bad behavior and more on trying to fix what you broke, and you'll actually get somewhere. When you get to that point, we're here to help, because we really want to aid people in getting their M's fixed.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 11:42 AM
"But what most people don't realize is that the wayward spouse... [is] also hurt by the experience. The almost always suffer from acute depression, often with thoughts of suicide." P. 16. Yes, Saddest, this is true. Most of the BSs here have never felt a WS's pain. And most WSs have never felt the pain of the people whom they betray. But only one of those groups consists of people who broke their vows of fidelity. I and other WSs can tell you 'I feel your pain' all you want. And I do. But that isn't gonna save your marriage. Saving your marriage is what this site is about.

"Instead of focusing on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks." p. 85. And it's a LB for your H every time you trot out your years-long spreadsheet listing all the wrongs you perceive he's ever done you.

"Demands carry the threat of punishment.... In other words, you may dislike doing what I want, but if your don't do it, I'll see that you suffer even greater pain ... demands depend on power." p. 95 What demands is your husband making of you now? What demands are you making from him? (This is not a rhetorical question. What say ye?)

"Never expect the other person to suffer or sacrifice so that your need can be met." p. 120 It cuts both ways.

"No spouse has the right to punish the other spouse." p. 157. You punished your H for his List of Wrongs by cheating on him. That's the punishment that should bother you most.

"If someone who has a long history of dishonesty and thoughtlessness agrees to the Rule of Honesty and the Rule of Protection, that person is on his or her way to becoming trustworthy, despite past history. As he or she learns how to be honest and learns how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement... it's only a matter of time before the person's spouse trusts them again." p. 160 You did a good thing by POJA'ing with your H re: the Boston trip. That's a step forward. Now stick with it.

Quote
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us.
Right now, your place is to rescue your marriage. Through that experience, you will find a voice to which people will listen & from which they can draw useful insight. You're not there yet. One of your posts to Redeem_Me was totally out-of-line with what she needs to hear. (That's what I came on here last night to say - I deleted that post b/c Mel beat me to it.)

Quote
We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too.
Would you say your marriage is "rebuilt" the way you want it? Then what "experience" are you talking about? You'll have experience rebuilding a marriage once you've done it.

Quote
I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.
I'm not here to affirm you. I'm here to try to help you save your marriage. On Day 1, one of the first things we advised you was "humility" -- and here you are, bragging about how you're "stubborn and strong." Don't you find that a little rich?

Saddest, people here care for you & your marriage. My wife even came out of semi-retirement to post to you yesterday, and that almost never happens anymore. We're not here to hear you say what you think we want to hear you say. We're here because we think it's possible for you to have the relationship with your H that you say you want. But he is deeply wounded, and for now you need to do the heavy lifting without expecting day-to-day payoffs & concessions.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 12:11 PM
Again, not impressed. And if you venture out of SAA forums, you will see that I am another FWW who does not just say what someone wants to hear. And I am not going to say what you want to hear, which is "yes, cheating is wrong, but kudos to you for not cheating sooner and for admitting you did it. Now, don't let your H speak of it again and make sure he's nice to you this time around." Not happening. Pride, defensiveness, word-twisting, and The People vs. My Rights will not help you save your M. Neither will drawing a line in the sand. You are in the acute phase here. The trauma 1 unit. It isn't time for physical therapy to exercise those marital muscles yet. You're still in danger of amputation.

There, that's enough metaphor for one post. Humility and patience are what is needed. And as far as desperation goes, a little desperation to fix the damage that you inflicted might actually be helpful. It's funny. I read SAA too....and the message I took from it was, "Luri, you have just destroyed your M, and your DH doesn't even know. You had better tell him and do whatever it takes to stop the madness you have created." I didn't read anything about asserting my rights over the man I had pummeled while blaming him for the beating. I guess it's all about perspective.
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

You've been asked to refrain from helping others because you are still DEEPLY in the fog. You thought processes are still rooted in defending the indefensible. WSs having a tendency to feed off of one another and remain in the fog if they validate on another's opinion. Not to mention you have a TON of work to do to save your own M.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's -- probably in the range of 90% or higher, and, in turn, the vast majority of those -- probably in the range of 80% or higher, are BW's. The WS are likely split about 80/20 WH/WS, and of those I am guessing 99% of the WH were brought here by their BW.

My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW. The WW's who show up either are quickly guided into line, or they leave. I have done neither because I know there is wisdom here but I am not going to fall into line to achieve a false sense of accomplishment.

No one is asking you to fall in line. You are being told how you can best help your BH heal enough to WANT to R your M. In all this your are still overlooking one very likely outcome if you continue down the path you are on. He can still choose to divorce you. It's really up to you....you can take off the "trial laywer hat" for a few minutes and quit approaching your situation like its a case you can win and get repentant, humble and appreciative that your BH is even willing to consider the possibilty of reconcilation with you or you can dig in your heels, be stubborn and argumentative which will likely land you in divorce court. It's your choice brought about by your actions.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdo for you too.


Actually, SW we do want your voice here and more importantly we want your M to R. There is absolutley NOTHING unique about your experiences or thoughts. We've heard it all before and in fact it's TEXTBOOK WS dribble. You will go to any lengths to dig in your heals and avoid taking the look in the mirror and REALLY seeing the person YOU have allowed yourself to become. Nothing is gonna change until you get humble and take that honest look without justification or excuses...

It's up to you SW...we can't force you to do it, but we will continue pointing out what needs to happen for you to have the best chance to grow as a person and ultimately try to save your M.

Want2Stay
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else. I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

The falling down drunks are shown to the door, they most certainly are not given the floor. All they know how to do is get drunk. Heck, a MONKEY knows how to do that. But what they don't know how to do is get sober. You don't know how to get sober. The blind can't lead the blind.

You are still a falling down drunk. So I will tell you what they told me when I was new in AA:

take the cotton of your ears and put it in your mouth.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favor and fix yourself before you commence to help others. You have nothing to share yet. Stay off the threads of newcomers!

The rest of your post is nothing more than fogbabble and not deserving of my time so I will pass.
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
take the cotton of your ears and put it in your mouth.


Ah Mel, you beat me to it.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I am stubborn and strong --

rotflmao
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:10 PM
SW, it's sad but not surprising what you got out of SAA. You missed a great deal of information in there.

However, several of the people posting to you have not only read Dr. H books, they have attended the MB weekend and have been helped directly by Dr. H in recovering their marriages. Some have counseled personally with his son, Steve Harley, or his daughter, Dr. Jennifer Harley-Chalmers.

Dr. H, Steve, and Jennifer all make it very clear that EPs are the foundation of saving a marriage, and they have helped the couples create appropriate EPs. Heck, Dr. H even says spouses should never spend a single night apart from each other...ever. And the Dr. lives by those types of stringent EPs, not because he had an affair, but because he values his marriage so much that he refuses to ever leave open an opportunity.

EPs are not punishment for an affair. They are the security systems for marriages. They are how we should have been living all along.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing. You need to find a place for us. We have a our own unique experience that can help rebuild marriages too. I

I'll tell you what, you fix your marriage like we have and then come back and talk to us.

Until then you are the falling down drunk who lectures sober, recovering adults about staying sober. It looks pretty ridiculous, sw. You need to listen to us, not the other way around. You know how to screw up a marriage; we know how to fix them.

Simple as that.
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:22 PM
Secondly, meeting ENs does not affair proof a marriage. It may lessen the vulnerability to an affair, but it will not solely protect the marriage. Dr. H says that even in marriages where ENs are met, an affair can happen.

How can that be?

Because EPs were not in place to prevent someone access to you.

If EPs are met, the likelihood of an affair is reduced, but not eliminated.

Dr. Chalmers explained that to my husband during counseling. While they were creating his EPs, she told him that he needed to create solid EPs because there may come a time when one spouse is UNABLE to meet ENs. You see, it's EPs that protect the marriage, not ENs.

If a spouse becomes critically ill, they most likely cannot meet ENs. Due to high-risk pregnancies, I could not meet some of my H's ENs for several months. The reality of life is that sometimes ENs won't get met. That is not an excuse for an affair because if boundaries are in place to keep others out of your marriage an affair will never, ever happen.

My husband has a very long, detailed list of EPs on here. That list was created by him with the help of Dr. Chalmers during our counseling. They examined every area of his life where he had left a door open for someone else other than me to meet his ENs. Then they formulated an EP to close that door. Somewhere on this board, there is a thread he started about EPs. The information he used to create that thread he didn't just make up. It came directly from his counseling with Dr. Chalmers.



Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:23 PM
SW, is there a reason why you are not coaching with the Harley's?

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:27 PM
saddest,

Lets see if this analogy makes sense to you. You advising new members on how to fix their marriage, at this point in the process, is akin to a high school student trying to explain habeas corpus after hearing the words for the first time without a definition.

You are still a student in this process, and your interpretation of the "Laws" in this process are still in their infancy of understanding.

If you read this disclaimer at the top of the forum page it says

"Many of our members have been in shoes similar if not the same as yours. They begin by asking questions and, with the help of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, other members point them in a direction that will solve their problem. After their problem is solved, they often stay on to help new members with their own experience, perspective, and opinion.

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts. "
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:33 PM
Quote
EPs are not punishment for an affair. They are the security systems for marriages. They are how we should have been living all along.

Thank you SMB, this is exactly the right thing to say.

Saddest, my FWH has a list pages long that includes every situation he could think of. Steve Harley started that with him very quickly after we started talking with him. For the longest time my FWH's job was to heal me, Steve kept me alive from week to week but my FWH healed me. He was not defensive, he just followed the directions given to him by Steve and this forum. I can tell you there is not once chance in H*** I would still be here if not for the council of both. He read the books and we attended the weekend and even then it was hard for me.

My FWH wrote all those EP's himself, several pages of them. He spent a great deal of time on the forum and with Steve and with personal help (thanks HPB aka tst). This forum pounded him daily until he got it, it was pretty brutal but he knew they were right. Your job is to suck it up and heal your H until you can both look at things and move forward. You will have your chance to say what the problems are (I said are not were) and the two of you will work it all out but he can't do that while he is laying on the floor bleeding from an open chest wound. SUCK IT UP and heal the man, he is not capable of doing that himself and coming out the other side with many positive feelings about you or your M. If you want to R your M pay attention, get humble and be remorseful and show that to your H. If you do those things well he will most likely come along nicely.

Write the EP's and show them to us. We can and will help you make them what he will need. Then present them to him, it IS a gift. I promise you he will feel better once he knows and sees what you are trying to do to make him feel that you are a safe W now and someone he can start to feel good about again.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:38 PM
I haven't been following your thread, but I have read most of it...

I am a FWW, all I can say about that is, it still hurts, the pain and anguish I gave to my DH wheels, he did not deserve what I had done to him. Even though it was an EA the emotions are still the SAME! The pain, the guilt, the depression...etc.

When I first came to this site I wanted to help those BS, but yet I still needed to learn, I read, read, read, and read more! I still might get some things wrong, but I still keep going.

If you want to read my story...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2405040&page=1

There are a lot of FWW on MB, you would be surprise....I would probably change the percentage to 60% 40% (BS/WS)
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 01:55 PM
I believe the forum members are too harsh with SW.

As a former BH I love the insight of WWs and what they have to say to other BHs.

It is difficult for me to watch the adherence to dogma 100% of the time.


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
It is difficult for me to watch the adherence to dogma 100% of the time.

Its difficult to watch a falling down drunk ignore sound advice ["dogma"] that would help her if she would just listen.

People really do want to help her but it is not helpful to enable her fogged out mindset. Might feel good, but helps no one.

And I havent seen anyone here who is as "harsh" and hostile as this poster. If it takes a few 2x4s to wake her up, then so be it.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by sexymamabear
EPs are not punishment for an affair. They are the security systems for marriages. They are how we should have been living all along.

EXACTLY!!!!

and to quote Dr. H directly from SAA.....

pg. 65..."The conditions are not a punishment for teh unfaithfulness; they are CRUCIAL building blocks that form the foundation for a strong marital recovery."

Go back and re-read pages 59-65, Counselor. It is everything Dr. H outlines for EP's.

I would pay special attention to #2...Blocking Communication with a Lover, since it was your refusal and excuse of "its a great number" on why you WON'T change your cell phone number that started this round......

Not2fun
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
I believe the forum members are too harsh with SW.

As a former BH I love the insight of WWs and what they have to say to other BHs.

It is difficult for me to watch the adherence to dogma 100% of the time.

Stan-ley, SW is lecturing forum members and it's offensive when she has not even begun to work MB yet.

Read the forum introduction, there are no hidden suprises, nor is it dogma, it's just good common sense.






Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:20 PM
I don't negate the importance of MB principles------they are fabulous.

However, I see this as a form of a Plan A.

BSs are encouraged to use Plan A with lunatic foggy waywards that are out of touch with reality. Correct?

As WWs go SW is not psychotic and she has a very good understanding of the situation. But, I am afraid the 2X4s are sometimes too harsh. Why not sprinkle some of those 2X4s with a little bit Plan A from the audience? Nothing wrong with being a little nice.

I know my own FWW use to take any 2X4s as a personal insult and she would often want to quit the forum. Afterwards, she would return when someone gave her some words of encouragement.

Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
As a former BH I love the insight of WWs and what they have to say to other BHs.


I love the insight of FORMER WWs. But the only insight WWs offer is the inside of their colon. I don't love that so much!

So until the cranial-rectal extraction takes place, I'd rather they not share their "insight".

Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
I know my own FWW use to take any 2X4s as a personal insult and she would often want to quit the forum. Afterwards, she would return when someone gave her some words of encouragement.



Then offer some encouragement.

YOU can be those encouraging words between the 2X4s.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
I don't negate the importance of MB principles------they are fabulous.

However, I see this as a form of a Plan A.

BSs are encouraged to use Plan A with lunatic foggy waywards that are out of touch with reality. Correct?

As WWs go SW is not psychotic and she has a very good understanding of the situation. But, I am afraid the 2X4s are sometimes too harsh. Why not sprinkle some of those 2X4s with a little bit Plan A from the audience? Nothing wrong with being a little nice.

I know my own FWW use to take any 2X4s as a personal insult and she would often want to quit the forum. Afterwards, she would return when someone gave her some words of encouragement.

Stan-ley,

I like SW..... she has some spunk, but she needs to temper it down and receive the help in the manner that it is intended. If people didn't care about her and her M, they wouldn't reply...... Soooo....Basically, I'm sayin' she needs to adjust her perspective.

Most of the posts to her are kind and encouraging right up till she responds with the defensivness that she relishes.

SW is in love with the IDEA of change, but wants the change to be happening in her husband, when the change really must happen within herself.
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:46 PM
Quote
I'd rather they not share their "insight".

I think the testimony of a foggy WW that wants guidance is valuable. It can be dissected in a not threatening manner.

Giving 2X4s 24/7 without allowing any testimony from WW may not always a positive thing. That is why I like JLs style so much.

My FWW loved the subtle 2X4s by JL and ran away from the harsh judgmental remarks. And she was highly motivated to saved the marriage (no different than SW).

I will agree that SW tends to be more intellectual and likes to challenge the posters, but I don't think that is a big deal at all.

Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 02:56 PM
Stan:

I can agree with your viewpoint.

I want as many folks here posting and getting help as possible.

But when SadW states that she can not find a post here about a WW who came and got beat up like she has?

Sorry. It doesn't take long to find THAT type of post around here. They ususaly only get to 5-10 posts, so SadW is MUCH better than most.... She can click on "MrsWondering" name, and go to her first posts. She would see some co-relation to the treatment that they both got when they arrived. There are others, please suggest those threads for her..

SadW is getting it. Slowly. She has to let her Lawyer brain get out of the way. Her lawyer brain is trained to look for inconsistencies, and differences to what is the "expected" answer. She has pointed all those out. But she was standing in the wrong place when she pointed out the inconsistencies and expected answers.

She is getting it.

LG
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
However, I see this as a form of a Plan A.

I used all the Plan A engeries on my WH.....don't have reserves left for a stranger. Sorry but that's me.......
Quote
BSs are encouraged to use Plan A with lunatic foggy waywards that are out of touch with reality. Correct?

Stan, Plan A's are tools for betrayed SPOUSE'S .......she isn't MY wife...... crazy

Not2fun
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
However, I see this as a form of a Plan A.

BSs are encouraged to use Plan A with lunatic foggy waywards that are out of touch with reality. Correct?


BSs are trying to build Love Bank balance's deeply in the red to the Romantic Love threshold - the advisors on this forum don't have that goal. Their goal is to impart their wisdom and personal experience to help rebuild a marriage.

And there is a stick to Plan A - to be used on the AFFAIR. The Carrot is to build a relationship (or the promise of one), the stick is to end the affair and wayward thinking. As there is no need to build a Love Bank balance here, guess what SW is getting - the stick... just as much a part of Plan A as the sweet, nicey nice stuff.

SW - you seem so eager to leave the affair in the past, but to do that you must also leave your husband's treatment of you in the past as well. You can't have one without the other.

You had a house, you and your husband trashed it, and then you dropped a wrecking ball on it. You need to rebuild. However, your original foundation was faulty, and you still had your valuables in the house - there may be things there you want to keep.

You're so rarin' to rebuild. But you can't yet. You are looking at tile samples for the bathroom, while your home is still in pieces.

You have to look at your foundation. See where the cracks were. You have to sort through the mess you have made, see what needs to go and see what you can keep.

There is a process of evaluation. As you dropped the bigger bomb, right now you need to focus on what you've done. But part of recovery is also for your husband to look at what he's done as well. But guess who was standing under the wrecking ball, in the house, when you dropped it? Yeah, your husband. Triage, think triage. You need to patch him up first. Then together survey the wreckage you've made. Clear out the rubble.

Then you can rebuild. They key to rebuilding and also, incidentally, patching up your husband are Extraordinary Precautions. They're going to shore up the cracks you had in your previous foundation.

There has never been any infidelity in my marriage. Not a hint of it. But I don't go to lunch with my coworkers unless DH is going. Because a few times some coworkers didn't show up and I was left eating lunch alone with a male coworker I'm close friends with. I used to talk about my marriage with this coworker. But I told him I would not anymore. I've seen too much damage here from others who have walked that road.

EPs aren't PUNISHMENT. They are structural necessities if you want your future house to stand. They are a safety net (to mix metaphors). Until you cling tightly to your EPs for the security they provide your marriage. As long as you see EPs as PUNISHMENT and punitive, you are WAYWARD.

When I sent my friend/coworker the steps to an affair, and we saw where our friendship could go, we both immediately stopped any behavior that could further that process. We both recognized that we needed precautions to protect our marriage, because no friendship, no behavior, no CELL PHONE NUMBER is worth a risk to our marriages.

So, heal your husband through honesty and humility, reassure him and strengthen your foundation with EPs, clear the rubble of your destroyed house. Then, and only THEN will you be prepared to start rebuilding, together.

You have a lot of work to do - both of you. It will take at LEAST 2 years, and it will be hard. Your hands will be sliced up as you pick through the pieces. You'll get frustrated and irritated with each other. You'll want to blame your husband for this mess. But the longer you stand around yelling about how you've been hurt, the longer it'll take before you can get back to looking at that tile sample. Pointing fingers wont help. Rolling up your sleeves and getting to work is the only thing that will help.

So, instead of standing over the mess trying to assign blame, why don't you get to work?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
[quote]

I think the testimony of a foggy WW that wants guidance is valuable. It can be dissected in a not threatening manner.

Her "testimony" is fogbabble and is useless. We already know how to screw up a marriage, anyone can do that. If she wants to learn to save hers, then she needs to put a sock in it and listen. The blind can't lead the blind. At AA meetings they escort drunks to the DOOR.

As far as "Plan Aing" a fogged out wayward, I would remind you we are not married to saddestwife. No one here is trying to fill her lovebank nor should they. If you are trying to fill her lovebank, I would caution against it.
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=Stan-ley]
Quote
I think the testimony of a foggy WW that wants guidance is valuable. It can be dissected in a not threatening manner.

Her "testimony" is fogbabble and is useless. We already know how to screw up a marriage, anyone can do that. If she wants to learn to save hers, then she needs to put a sock in it and listen. The blind can't lead the blind. At AA meetings they escort drunks to the DOOR.

As far as "Plan Aing" a fogged out wayward, I would remind you we are not married to saddestwife. No one here is trying to fill her lovebank nor should they. If you are trying to fill her lovebank, I would caution against it.

Obviously I am talking about courtesy and cordiality with the poster despite her WW status.. That goes a long way even for those that are not our spouses.

I am just restating that some of the words seem harsh. Like I said one could give 2X4s like JL does.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:30 PM
SW,

Actually many BH, myself included, really appreciate frank disclosure of how WW's feel, because that's the only to really understand someone else. A fool wants people to say things they themselves want to hear.

Because of what I read here I was able to ask my wife the kinds of questions I never would have thought of had I not an understanding of her state of mind.

In fact it was Mrs_Zonies posts, spelling?, that really shook me up and made me realize what I was doing to my wife.

You have your formula but ask yourselves if in the end it is wise to run us off -- we have wisdom for you too.

Just looked and there are 34 registered users and 65 guests on line right now. Some of those 65 guests will be helped by your truthful postings, but are too ashamed or shy to ever say a word. Your postings have an effect on more people than the vocal minority who object so strenuously.

This is an anonymous forum for goodness sakes!

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:31 PM
SW,

I really want to stay out of your thread but somehow I keep looking in. I do have a few things to offer and I have done that. I would suggest, following LG's post to find WW threads where they got beat up pretty good, that you also look at the threads for GreenMile, my FWH. He was a lot like you, lots of intellectual argument and a nice award from Mel for one of his babble statements. He finally got it but it was a long haul. There may be something of value in those threads for you.

That is it. I will leave you to the masters. They are right and it is a narrow path for you to follow. I think you can do it but it may still be a while before you finally get it. BTW, it is not only waywards who get 2x4's here. Us BS's, if being stupid or not thinking get them too. This is too serious to mess around with. Nobody is willing to let you mess up more by being overly kind to you, it is because they know how this goes and that it is imperative that you get this under control soon.

Good luck, you can do this.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:31 PM
Stan-ley come on - I'm not interested in swinging 2x4's the way JL does it!

I tend to swing the bat a little different. Sometimes I strike out and other times I hit a home run. Doesn't mean I don't have the right to step up to the plate and give it my all!
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:32 PM
Frank Gunzburg's Three Phases of Recovery:



Phase I: Individual Healing - Understanding and sorting through emotional problems.

Phase I is all about YOU whether the betrayed or the betrayer. While the betrayed spouse most often has the most emotional turmoil to sort though, the betrayer as well has a lot of emotional baggage to deal with as the result of the affair.

When a person is affected by infidelity, whether cheater or cheated, the first thing they do is look for reasons why it happened. They want to know the details of the affair. They want to know why their loved one cheated or why they themselves became unfaithful.

But this is really externalizing the problem, that is, it seeks to explain our feelings and emotions and even actions in light of something outside ourselves. It is looking outside ourselves for answers and solutions to the turmoil within us.

But we need to stop looking outside for answers to what lies within us. We need to stop trying to figure out the other person and start trying to figure out our own emotions. We need to look, not without, but within. We need to be honest about our own emotions and pain and thoughts concerning the affair.

Phase I is all about developing strategies to deal with your own emotions, thoughts and feelings about the affair. All the rest can and must be addressed, but each of us must first deal with our raging emotions and learn how to deal with them so we can act rationally without a desire to inflict pain on the other. This is especially true for the betrayed spouse, but applies to the wayward spouse as well.



Phase II: Healing as a couple - Working together to identify and resolve key issues and problems.

Phase II which can only begin after Phase I has been dealt with is where you begin to work together to identify what was wrong with the marriage in the first place. It can help identify what it was that was lacking or that should not have been present that contributed to the climate that led to the affair.

The critical components of the relationship are examined in this phase to establish a set of requirements needed by both of us in order to build a marriage that will address both of our needs while avoiding the pitfalls that led to the affair in the first place.

This is also the phase in which you will examine what is required by the betrayed spouse as to details of the affair. Some may want to know every single thing that happened with a time-line and minutia that even the cheater may not be able to recall immediately. Others might not want to know much of anything because they can't avoid replaying the scenes over and over in their minds. Suffice it to say that what is required is that the cheater is willing to provide as much detail and information as the cheated spouse desires. As long as they are asking, the questions should be answered.



Phase III: Negotiating a Renewed Relationship.

In Phase III is where we get down to the really hard part of rebuilding the marriage. It is this phase that really must continue forever, or at least as long as you remain married to each other. This is where we get to the application of Marriage Builders methods and create a marriage that makes us both happy and fulfilled. Since needs, desires and emotions can and will change over time, this phase can never really come to an end. It is really what we should have been doing all along.

Both the betrayer and the betrayed needs to communicate openly the truth about their emotional state and their ever changing needs so that it gives their spouse an opportunity to fulfill those requirements. It means always communicating honestly, both positive and negative emotions and feelings so that neither of us can ever again use resentment over something that is missing or something that we wish were not there as grounds for justifying going outside the relationship for what we seek.

It requires spending time with your spouse and becoming transparent so that you can fully trust each other to not only remain faithful, but to provide that which each of you needs from the other.

It is really a contract that you both must accept that spells out the details of what the marriage is to become in order to make it the marriage you both want.

Acceptance of the terms of this contract is what will give you protection against infidelity in the future. BOTH of you need to accept this contract for it to have any value.

The above is from my Musings thread linked in my sig line.


I recently addressed this idea from the view point of the betrayed spouse, but my analogy also applies to the wayward spouse, so I will repeat it here.

It's as if your house burned down. While you both were able to get out safely and your family has been saved, the fire is out and you even have a check in hand from the insurance company that will give you the funds you need to rebuild, you still stand before a burned out mess that was once your home. Not much seems to be left and the task of rebuilding seems daunting.

The first thing that needs to happen is you both need to begin to heal. But there is a difference in the types of injuries you each sustained. In the case of your betrayed husband, his injuries came as the result of something he wasn't even aware was about to happen. He was sleeping soundly when the fire began and while he might have contributed to the poor condition of the house that led to the fire, he wasn't the one who lit the match. That, SW, was you. He got burned while he slept.

He failed to take out the trash, maybe for years. He didn't fix the things that needed fixing, again, maybe for years at a time. But it was you, SW, that poured gasoline on the pile of trash and struck a match to begin the fire.

I am not minimizing your pain and suffering, SW. I understand that you too have been hurt by all of this. But you are the one who set fire to the marital bed, no matter what condition that bed was in when you did it. Now people are asking you to remove the possibility of ever setting another fire ever again. They tell you that the way to do that is to rid yourself not only of the gasoline but the matches as well. If your affair partner were to contact you while you were having a momentary lapse in resolve, it would require that will power alone be what you rely on to avoid restarting the fire.

But something else is working here as well. You got burned just as surely as your husband did. But because he was unaware that the fire was about to begin, the fire nearly consumed him before he was aware it was happening. You lit the fire and then woke him up but because he wasn't prepared to escape the flames, he got 3rd degree burns and his very life was in jeopardy. His future is still in question, SW. He still might never recover from this and even if he does recover, he will carry the scars, as will you, for many years and probably for the rest of his life.

What people are asking of you is that you set aside the gasoline, stop carrying matches and focus on trying to help your husband heal first. He needs to know, not just trust but actually KNOW that you will not start any more fires.

Yes, you need to heal too. We get that, but your husband is still in intensive care and trying to get him to start rebuilding the house, or more to the point of the analogy, trying to negotiate the layout of the kitchen or the color of the carpet in the living room while the debris is still smoldering will not result in having your dream home. You can't talk about landscaping till he is ready and focusing on how his ideas of what to plant or the fact that the old things he planted were not good for you will not get you a new house or marriage.

As far as this posting or not posting to newbies...

You don't even have to be recovered to post to those who come along. But you should understand the difference between the principals being taught here and your own best thinking and opinions. It was after all, your own best thinking and opinions that brought you here and got you to where you currently find yourself. Your best instincts are what resulted in the fire that has consumed pretty much everything you ever had.

Your husband was 50% responsible for the condition of the house, SW. But you were the one who struck the match. Please focus right now on healing for both of you and worry about what the new house will have in it when the rebuilding begins.

Mark
Posted By: Stan-ley Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:38 PM
Quote
I tend to swing the bat a little different. Sometimes I strike out

That is funny! rotflmao
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:43 PM
I swing a Texas 2x4, not a JL 2x4! laugh
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I swing a Texas 2x4, not a JL 2x4! laugh
Even the 2X4s are bigger in Texas...
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I swing a Texas 2x4, not a JL 2x4! laugh
Mental note to self.... don't tick Melody off! Nooo
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by suamico
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I swing a Texas 2x4, not a JL 2x4! laugh
Mental note to self.... don't tick Melody off! Nooo

Yeah but mine is in metric. dance2

JL
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 07:14 PM
Quote
The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.



The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.



The ONLY way to A proof my M is for my H to find a way to be nice to me.


SaddestW

What you revealed about yourself with this comment, is that you have no faith in yourself as far as self control goes.

Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 07:32 PM
How many BSs on this forum were perfectly content with their marriages before the found out about their spouse's affair? How many were getting their needs met, just right? How many WSs were perfectly nice to their BSs before their affairs?

And yet - it's the wayward spouse who had the affair, not the BS. In some cases, the BS may just not gotten around to it yet. But for most, they were JUST as miserable, neglected and abused as the WS and yet DIDN'T have an affair.

The difference:

EPs
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 07:37 PM
Personal integrity does not, must not, hinge on how others treat us.
If I am a person of integrity, I own my behavior. 100%.

A person of weak character and dubious integrity blames others for their behavior and mis-deeds.

If you truly believe adultery is wrong, you will not go down that path, no matter what.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 08:02 PM
I don't think it is possible for you to misconstrue the Harleys' Plan for Recovery with this video like the way you did w/ SAA. I'd advise you to watch the video in its entirety on the home page (the entire video is 30 mins, this is part 4 of the series on youtube). But at least pls watch the below clip starting at 4:57 (this is at the end of the video and a summation of the plan).

Steve Harley (beginning at 4:57):
"As you have just heard infidelity is an emotionally traumatic event. A marriage that has experienced infidelity has been severely injured and must be properly treated.

Can you treat the injury without the help of a coach or counselor? It is possible but very difficult because the actual treatment must be carried out by the one who had the affair. Unless the wayward spouse really understands the details of how to successfully treat the wound, I strongly advise against doing it on your own.

When looking for someone to help your marriage recovery successfully make sure the plan includes at least the following elements..."
1) NC
2) WS assumes FULL responsbility for their OWN actions
3) Reveal Details of the A at soonest appropriate time
4) Detailed Plan to Independently Prevent Reoccurence of another A (EPs)
5) Detailed Plan to Fall in Love & Stay in Love
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/MarriageBuilders#p/a/u/0/j3K_0Mte5Sc[/video]
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/19/10 08:36 PM
SW, there is a LOT on these BOARDS. Not just the SAA board. You will learn things from EVERYTHING on this site. Go into ALL of the different places and see what there is to learn. There are THOUSANDS of pages of threads, I can't imagine that you have read ALL of them. A lot of the stories of the recovered people are on the recovered boards. Also, there are times when DrH has answered questions for others on the radio and on another board. Read all of that. The thing is, you can't pick and choose what you get. THIS is why the suggestion was made to you to get your WH here. He should at least read the material for himself. You can't possibly KNOW what would help him and to pick certain things would most definitely lead to confusion and a plan SW, not MB.

No one here wants you to leave. We are PRO-MARRIAGE. We BELIEVE in DRH and the MB-way. We KNOW that if MB is used in a marriage, that marriage can be made EXCEPTIONAL. The vets also KNOW what it takes to recover. Please listen. It is YOUR marriage and life at stake, not theirs. They have nothing to los but are choosing to help you anyways.

LOOK at how lucky you are. You have some of the heaviest hitters on this board advising you. BSs(myself included) would LOVE to have this individual attention paid to us by so many of the vets. It's like calling 9-11. Only call if you really need their help. If you don't want their help, you wasted the time that they could have spent helping someone who really needed it and WOULD listen. PLEASE LISTEN.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 01:25 AM
I am, however belatedly, working on a list of EP's and have run into a problem I haven't been able to find an answer to.

My H LOVES to hunt (it's a Texas thing). This is a biggie for me because I am a "hunting widow" and come September, he will be gone most weekends until Thanksgiving and after -- by spring turkey season surely things will be better or over. I want him to hunt -- it is the thing in his life that gives him the most joy (and a source of abandonment resentment for me, but that is on hold for now). What can I possibly offer to reassure him while he is gone so he gets the joy he should out of it?

And no, I can't go with him -- we have a 15 year old serious tennis player, and besides I hate everything about hunting. I'm going to suck it up and go with him a couple of times this year which I can tolerate because I now have a Kindle and the pages turning don't make any noise, but going with him every weekend is out of the question.

He travels SO much for work -- and now hunting on top -- I've run into a creative wall on how to address EP's in this context.

BTW -- I told him a bit about what was suggested to me as EP's. He has been in the software business for 15 years and had no idea what a keylogger was and no interest in installing one which is a good thing since I journal on my laptop and before you get all agitated, I get that the end goal is that he should be able to read my journal entries but we are way far away from that. Does a keylogger even track Word documents?

GPS -- his response was "why would I do that? You'd just take it as a challenge to get around it." The cell phone number thing doesn't bother him -- but it's starting to bother me a bit.

And don't jump all over me again. I'm mulling this over. My list of EP's is going to be my list -- the list of boundaries I want and need to put in place to make sure that he feels safe and that will eliminate triggers for me. I would like to post it if the reactivity to me here could be dialed down a bit. I'm trying.

I broke down and texted a friend today and deleted the messages so he wouldn't know I was talking to her -- just sharing with her the joys of being in the house 24 hours a day with a sullen 15 year old and and a high level of tension between me and my H. I'm putting in a second request for counseling from Steve. The response to my first request was lost in spam world. I didn't realize I could talk to him alone -- I thought it had to be both of us. I have some specific questions to my immediate situation which I will NOT post here as I am afraid the entire forum would go up in flames.

I saw on some thread that the Harley's don't advocate joint marriage counseling, but can't find a discussion on the site? Anyone direct me?

Anyone done the on-line program? It seems the perfect fit for us.

Any thoughts on the travel/hunting thing?
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 01:43 AM
To my chagrin, I have read every post on this thread. I think I keep coming back because I am hoping for a breakthrough from you, sw.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I would like to post it if the reactivity to me here could be dialed down a bit. I'm trying.

Do or do not. There is no try. (Score one for Yoda!)

No, in all seriousness, let me say: work on your humility. If that statement right there just ticked you off, work on your humility even more. I mean this in no incendiary way, just speaking from experience. Take the hits here, mull them over, and work on your humility. Recovery is hard, and it's darn near impossible without a humble heart.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm putting in a second request for counseling from Steve. The response to my first request was lost in spam world.

Just call.

To schedule an appointment with Steve Harley, you may use one of two options:

Call toll-free 1 (888) 639-1639
or
e-mail (counsel@marriagebuilders.com) an appointment request by completing the form below.
Appointments may be scheduled as early as 6:00am Central Time (GMT -06:00) and as late as 9:00pm Central Time Monday thru Thursday. Appointments may be scheduled 6:00am Central Time to 3:00pm Central Time on Friday, also.

See here .

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have some specific questions to my immediate situation which I will NOT post here as I am afraid the entire forum would go up in flames.

Get over yourself already, okay? Doesn't matter if you're joking, you're blithely dismissing (not to mention downright denigrating) so much with that statement. This is a lot of work on everyone's behalf for you to just be going through the motions. (I'm including that it's a lot of work for you in that.) The sooner you accept that you are no different or better than any other adulterer here, and the sooner you realize that a number of people here actually know what they are talking about (HAVING BEEN THROUGH IT FIRSTHAND), the sooner you can really start recovering.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I saw on some thread that the Harley's don't advocate joint marriage counseling, but can't find a discussion on the site? Anyone direct me?

Anyone done the on-line program? It seems the perfect fit for us.

Any thoughts on the travel/hunting thing?

I understand you coming here with questions, things you need. Please, though, take a minute to look at the countless posts to your thread while you were away for a while. I know it's difficult right now to think beyond the seeming immediacy of your own situation, but try to think of the people behind the words. The time and care they are putting in on your behalf, the serious questions they are posing. Pay attention to others, be grateful, learn empathy. It's the lack of those things that contributed to your infidelity, and it's a lack of those things that will ensure you and/or your M never recovers.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 01:50 AM
Oh! Sorry, I got caught up with all of that other stuff and forgot what initially prompted me to post: EPs.

The way I understood it after counseling with Steve, EPs are not just a list of "I won't fill-in-the-blank." It has to be much more comprehensive and thoughtful and creative than that.

Did you ever look up tst/HPB's EP thread? It's here.

You can't just say "I won't fill-in-the-blank." Think about what particular ENs the OM met (you mentioned the intellectual challenge of cheating, e.g.), and figure out ways to block any other man from meeting those.

So I guess what I'm saying is: EPs are about blocking all contact from your OM, but also preventing any OM from meeting your ENs.

Have you filled out an ENQ?

So the hunting situation, then, is about ENs in their comprehensive form, AND it's about POJA.

Time to get creative!
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 01:52 AM
One last thing: haha, welcome back to your thread!

I know it's not the help you were seeking re: answers to your questions, but I think (not that I'm biased, or anything) that it's more helpful in the grand scheme of things.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
He travels SO much for work -- and now hunting on top -- I've run into a creative wall on how to address EP's in this context.

The solution is stop traveling. If you can't go together, then he shouldn't go. Traveling apart is an invitation to an affair and is a big no-no at Marriage Builders.

It is also a leisure activity that you don't share. It is this kind of stuff that leads to detachment in marriage that leads to a lack of romance that leads to AFFAIRS.

If you want to recover your marriage, the independent lifestyles have to be exchanged for an INTERDEPENDENT lifestyle.

Quote
I saw on some thread that the Harley's don't advocate joint marriage counseling, but can't find a discussion on the site? Anyone direct me?

What did you want to know? They don't advocate joint marriage counseling because it doesn't work. Couples who counsel together tend to complain about each other, which is damaging to the marriage.

Quote
Anyone done the on-line program? It seems the perfect fit for us.

Many of us have done the weekend seminars, with great success. They have replaced the weekend seminars with the online version. They are exactly the same except you watch Dr Harley on video from your computer, whereas, we watched him in a ballroom. The seminar has successfully turned many marriages around here.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I would like to post it if the reactivity to me here could be dialed down a bit. I'm trying.

If people are jumping all over you, then you should take a harder look at YOURSELF and pay attention. Folks don't jump unless they see fog, so that should give you a hint to re-examine your thinking. This is a FOG FREE ZONE! grin
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 03:21 AM
I do keep coming back -- and I am taking a harder look at myself.

The EP's are things I'm supposed to offer him to make him feel safe and as part of Just Compensation, right?

I can't offer him as part of Just Compensation that he stop traveling and, more importantly hunting. I'm looking for a way to make him feel safe when he does those things -- especially hunting -- come on, MelodyLane, you are a Texan -- you HAVE to get the men hunting thing?

The question re: joint marriage counseling gave me the impression there was an article or something that I just couldn't find. There is a lot on this website, and I am trying to cover it all, but I couldn't ever locate the source of that and wondered if it was true. In this particular instance, I don't need to understand why because the answer works for me.

Mrs_Vanilla -- glad to see you show up. I have read a bunch of your posts on other threads, and I welcome your input. I may be dumb as a rock right now, but I am trying to become something more than a virus -- hopefully, a mammal with an opposable thumb and all. I have read the thread you suggested on EP's, as well as many others. I am just having trouble getting my searches to come up with stuff that is responsive to my question. Like, I have read many posts from SapphireReturns and I would love to read her thread but can't figure out how to access it. Posters from time to time have said read _________ thread, but I haven't the faintest idea how to find it. I'm not lazy -- I'm search engine impaired. I looked all over for feedback on the On-Line program (we can then solve our marital problems from different cities -- indeed different countries!) but couldn't find it.

I PROMISE, I have numerous bad qualities, but I am not lazy on seeking information.

And, OK, I give up. I will pick up the ^*()&*N&*()& telephone and call -- I need immediate help.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 03:32 AM
SW,

If you want to see what else a poster has posted here, click on his or her user name beside any post they have made. Then choose the <View Posts> button and it will show you everything they ever said here.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 03:53 AM
Some of the info you are looking for is right here in your thread.

Some of the info, as was posted to you here in your own thread, you may not be able to find on the website ~ it may have been learned about in the MB Weekend, thru coaching or on the radio show.

It would be beneficial to you to go back and read through this thread, maybe more than once. Also to respond to posters who have taken the time to post thoughts and questions to you.

ps...Has your NC letter been sent yet? Has your phone number been changed yet??
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I do keep coming back -- and I am taking a harder look at myself.

The EP's are things I'm supposed to offer him to make him feel safe and as part of Just Compensation, right?

I can't offer him as part of Just Compensation that he stop traveling and, more importantly hunting. I'm looking for a way to make him feel safe when he does those things -- especially hunting -- come on, MelodyLane, you are a Texan -- you HAVE to get the men hunting thing?

The question re: joint marriage counseling gave me the impression there was an article or something that I just couldn't find. There is a lot on this website, and I am trying to cover it all, but I couldn't ever locate the source of that and wondered if it was true. In this particular instance, I don't need to understand why because the answer works for me.

Mrs_Vanilla -- glad to see you show up. I have read a bunch of your posts on other threads, and I welcome your input. I may be dumb as a rock right now, but I am trying to become something more than a virus -- hopefully, a mammal with an opposable thumb and all. I have read the thread you suggested on EP's, as well as many others. I am just having trouble getting my searches to come up with stuff that is responsive to my question. Like, I have read many posts from SapphireReturns and I would love to read her thread but can't figure out how to access it. Posters from time to time have said read _________ thread, but I haven't the faintest idea how to find it. I'm not lazy -- I'm search engine impaired. I looked all over for feedback on the On-Line program (we can then solve our marital problems from different cities -- indeed different countries!) but couldn't find it.

I PROMISE, I have numerous bad qualities, but I am not lazy on seeking information.

And, OK, I give up. I will pick up the ^*()&*N&*()& telephone and call -- I need immediate help.


hurray
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:33 AM
Saddest,

The hunting and traveling thing is really not about EP's unless he finds temptation while hunting. Those things are about the POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT, POJA. They are about working for a win-win. He likes to hunt, you have a 15 year old playing serious tennis. It seems to me you have many of your weekends already spoken for even if H doesn't hunt. Should he be supporting his child? Yup!

I do know about the serious sports stuff. We had three playing traveling sports of various sorts and my W and I were often at opposite ends of the state IF we were even in the state. Took three calenders to keep up with it all, and I did ALOT of traveling in those days.

My point? EP are about protecting your marriage from the threat of affairs. You need to invoke EP's to make sure he KNOWS you are serious about not having another affair, and YOU KNOW you are completely avoiding any temptation.

I'm glad you are back and I hope that eventually you will change your perspectives on things in a way that it makes life easier for you.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 12:05 PM
Saddest, I am glad to see you back. Sorry that you feel like you are being attacked. It is not meant to harm you but to help you, although you may not "see" that yet. I hope to see you one day, as a vet and FWW yourself, dishing out similar 2x4s.

When you talk about the hunting that your H does, you said it creates resentment in you. THAT is enough for it to become a POJA discussion with your H.

Keep coming back. This is a much better addiction to replace the one you had. laugh
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 12:08 PM
saddestwife, the reason that hunting has to go is because you arne't supposed to ever spend the night apart. This is one of the foundations of affair proofing a marriage. It has nothing to do with POJA. Not even Dr Harley spends the night apart from Joyce.

Anything that takes you away from each other over night needs to be dropped. NOT POJAed, but dropped.

Secondly, if hunting is his favorite recreation, instead of you, then the contrast effect hinders the ability to become each others favorite leisure actitivity.

Now, some folks do hunt. Steve Harley does. But he takes his wife with him to the cabin. He goes out hunting in the morning and they spend the rest of the day and the evening together.

So, the solution is to go with him or cancel the trips. That is a foundation of affair proofing a marriage and creating romantic love.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 12:12 PM
Additionally, saddestwife, in order to recover your marriage, you must be spending 20+ hours per week of undivided attention. Can't very well do that if your H is out of town.

This program doesnt even work without it. Dr Harley will not take on a couple unless they commit to 15 hours [the min to maintain]. This program is a waste of time without that.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."
here
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 12:15 PM
Well, Mel, I meant that it needs to be POJA'd so that she WOULD go in some capacity. Sorry, I didn't make myself clear about that.

SadW has said that she is willing to go on a few weekends and I believe those should be the only weekends that SadWH should go on. Hence the suggestion for POJA. NOT to stay apart but to come up with some solutions that would be mutually enthusiastic, KWIM?

IMVHO, I think that SadW thinks that she should suffer some discomfort so her DH can have some JC. I know that isn't the case with JC. It isn't meant to PUNISH the WS. Maybe there is some cinfusion and I am glad that you are helping guide SadW through MB. laugh
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
SadW has said that she is willing to go on a few weekends and I believe those should be the only weekends that SadWH should go on. Hence the suggestion for POJA. NOT to stay apart but to come up with some solutions that would be mutually enthusiastic, KWIM?

Good advice!

Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 04:03 PM
SadW:

The fact that your Husband travels ALOT, and then, for the entire Fall, disappears to the hunting camp, is something that is corrosive to your marriage and DOES not help it to recover.

I don't care if your Husband is a Texen, and likes to hunt.

I like to play golf. And I would play every weekend. But it makes my wife angry and resentful. So, I do NOT get to play every weekend. I POJA it with my Wife.

So, guess what? Your Husband DOES have to change something. He just might not get to Hunt every weekend from September to December. You might have to go to the cabin the weekends he goes. And come to joint agreement to the weekends he CAN go.

MB principles state that you should NOT spend the nights apart. Where your M is right now in recovery it is NOT a good idea to aviod this advice.

Does anyone else go with yout husband to the woods? Are there a group of guys who does this with him?

This stuff ain't easy. You have been married along time, with many bad habits learned over the years, Both you and your H have learned bad habits. It is CHANGING these bad habits that lead to recovery.

And it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time.

LG
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 04:17 PM
I would again STRONGLY advise you to send your H here so that he can get help understanding the program.

Your post about how he mocked the GPS and some of the other EPs indicates to me that there may be a problem in the way this info is being presented to him.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 04:35 PM
You need to understand I am trying to implement MB stuff by stealth -- H is OK with me reading etc., but "don't get carried away." I'm focused right now on what I can change without asking H to change anything, travel or hunting. Especially hunting as he will be understandably resentful if I say "don't go dear as I'm not sure I can be trusted at home alone."

Here is how the hunting thing came up. We were doing UA time having a beer and talking about the RC need. I commented that he must be looking forward to dove season (yes, we do kill songbirds in Texas) and he said "I'll bet you are looking forward to it to so you can spend some more time with your boyfriend." Not sure what the right response to that is besides "no, I'm not". Not sure there is a right response. Have to figure out a way to stop those kinds of barbs at some point.

Scotland -- you are correct -- that I how I was thinking. But remember I am a lawyer -- compensatory damages make the party whole. The legal rationale for punative damages is to serve as a societal warning not to engage in the conduct, although the result in an undeserved windfall for the recovering party.

So, to short circuit that thinking, I have created a Resentment Bank in my brain, and windfall = a deposit in that bank, and am testing EP's to make sure they don't add to it as it is pretty full already. I had a seismic shift in my thinking on the whole subject when I realized that EP's are meant to keep me safe too. I really, truly do want him to hunt as much as he wants -- I like that he's doing something that makes him happy. I just wish sometimes that he would want to want to stay home with me. But that's not an EP issue -- at least I don't think it is?

I will go sometimes, but not dove hunting which is early Sept. -- I refuse to stand in a field in 100 degree heat for hours watching out for careless hunters and rattlesnakes (I'm not exaggerating).

I'd like to offer an EP that would allow him to go without worrying about what I am up to, but I haven't been able to come up with anything. I have some time to figure it out. It may be a problem without a solution.

20 hours a week? I scoff at 20 hours a week. We are together ALL THE TIME which is driving me around the bend insane, but whatever. I actually could not have picked a better time to blow up our lives. We'll be together ALL THE TIME from now to Aug. 15. I'm so desperate for some time alone that I am going to iron all day -- I don't EVER iron -- because the laundry room is too small for both of us.

Thanks for your input -- I've seen a whole lot of EP's on it when it is the WS doing the traveling but it is a toughie from the non-travelling WS's EP point of view.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 04:43 PM
Have you explained to him that his trips leave you feeling lonely? That although you want him to be happy, you feel resentful that he spends SOOOOOO much time away from you?


His comment about the "boyfriend" seems to suggest that he is worried about what you will do when he goes hunting. If nothing else, you should print out the information on EPs and allow him to read it.

The best thing you could do would be to involve him in the process, instead of trying to do it all yourself. That means to bring him here so he can start reading about MB and the principles.

Yes you had the A. However it will take BOTH of you to recover the M.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 04:48 PM
Counselor,

Glad to see ya back!!!!.... grin

You DO have gumption and spunk, I'll give ya that!

I do urge ya to call Steve. He will help you navigate this stuff. I understand what you are saying about the hunting and work travel. I could easily see a BS going "WTH!!!! YOU had an affair and now *I* have to quit all the things * I* have always done and loved!!! Forget THAT!!!!"...

That would be because he hasn't quite gotten his mind wrapped around what it will REALLY take to Recover the marriage. And I can see how extremely hard it would be for the WS trying to tell this to the offended BS.

THAT'S where Steve would really help you two. A third neutral party. You don't need H to get on the phone at that first session, just get yourself on there and Steve will help guide you through EVERYTHING.......

You CAN do this........

Not
Posted By: Lookin4Serenity Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 04:56 PM
Hi SW,
Just a suggestion on the POJA stuff as it pertains to your BSs hunting. Is it possible for you financially to afford a private hunt or two with a guide at a resort type hunting lodge? I lived in TX for a year and I know they're out there. This could be a win/win for both of you. You're togther at the same place but hubby can hunt in the morning and you can take a spa. Afternoon and eve is for romance. This would be a great gift for both of you. You both know what each other is doing and most of the time you will be togther. (I'm assuming since you're an atty that financially it shouldn't be an issue). Just a thought.
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
He has been in the software business for 15 years and had no idea what a keylogger was and no interest in installing one which is a good thing since I journal on my laptop and before you get all agitated, I get that the end goal is that he should be able to read my journal entries but we are way far away from that. Does a keylogger even track Word documents?
Your husband has been in IT for 15 years and he doesn't know what a keylogger is? I am not in IT but I know there are ways to monitor computers. Why do you want to know if a keylogger tracks word documents? Why can't you just tell him about the journal? Let him know why you are doing it. If he reads it then at least you have told him about it and why you are doing it.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
GPS -- his response was "why would I do that? You'd just take it as a challenge to get around it."
His response sounds like something someone who has been reading and learning the tricks of a WS.
I'm sorry SW but these 2 statements make me question if you are telling us the whole truth.
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Lookin4Serenity
Hi SW,
Just a suggestion on the POJA stuff as it pertains to your BSs hunting. Is it possible for you financially to afford a private hunt or two with a guide at a resort type hunting lodge? I lived in TX for a year and I know they're out there. This could be a win/win for both of you. You're togther at the same place but hubby can hunt in the morning and you can take a spa. Afternoon and eve is for romance. This would be a great gift for both of you. You both know what each other is doing and most of the time you will be togther. (I'm assuming since you're an atty that financially it shouldn't be an issue). Just a thought.
I like this idea. Even if they can't find a resort she can stay at the lodge with him. She can hunt some days with him and other days go do something she likes and in the evenings they can have their alone time.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:30 PM
You are beginning to get it! Good for you. You are not there yet but you are certainly trying and making progress and that is so great. Your BH does not get it yet. It may still be a little early, the comment about leaving you to be with your boyfriend is something I have said and I was here getting it. Still, he really needs to be on board with this. This is so hard for you still and his joining will help you so much not to mention how it will help him. How can he tell you not to go overboard when all you are trying to do is make your marriage one that you both relish? His help could be the thing that draws you close enough to really want to make this all work. Believe me, I know you sound as if you want to but there are still things you say that sound resentful enough that I would not be able to recover with a spouse feeling that way. Maybe you just tell us that stuff, I hope so because this is where that belongs and you are doing the right thing telling it here and getting the pros ideas.

If you made copies of some of the things, maybe info about what EP's are and how they work along with the POJA info and left them out somewhere he would see them would he pick them up and look at them? Sometimes that would help others to join in the program or at least have enough understanding of what you are trying to do to help you keep it up.

I don't know if this will help you or not but my FWH used to feel like he should not have to give up the things he loved to do. He did it and at some point the resentment stopped. I also gave up some things and I resented it since I had done nothing to make him not trust me. We both occasionally do things we are not particularly interested in just to be kind, to feel good about doing it for the other and to allow each of us to have some interest that is mostly just our own supported and shared. We do this by using POJA so there is no resentment at all. I would not be able to do the hunting thing...vegetarian for moral reasons...but there must be other things you can do.

Just to reinforce, you have to stop being apart for nights or weeks or even days while one is out of town. I know this is hard in today's world but it really is a must. He will feel better and so will you. My M was one of total IB's, mine because I had no relationship with my H and his because he wanted no marital relationship. It is hard to start but once you start it it is hard to go back or even believe you ever lived that way. We are almost 20 months into this and things can still be difficult. It takes a lot of time, especially after you have been together so long and have established habits. Call Steve, he will make this all seem easier than it is when you are trying on your own to do it. He has an amazing ability to narrow things down to what is most important. Keep it up. You are going to do fine with this. There really is quite a learning curve here and none of it is as easy as it seems it should be.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You need to understand I am trying to implement MB stuff by stealth -- H is OK with me reading etc., but "don't get carried away."
redflag

Are you moving towards practicing radical honesty (here and in your M)? I am not trying to offend you but something is not right here.

Remember: our goal is to help you rebuild your M.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You need to understand I am trying to implement MB stuff by stealth -- H is OK with me reading etc., but "don't get carried away."
redflag

Are you moving towards practicing radical honesty (here and in your M)? I am not trying to offend you but something is not right here.

Remember: our goal is to help you rebuild your M.

I agree.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by saddestwife
You need to understand I am trying to implement MB stuff by stealth -- H is OK with me reading etc., but "don't get carried away."
redflag

Are you moving towards practicing radical honesty (here and in your M)? I am not trying to offend you but something is not right here.

Remember: our goal is to help you rebuild your M.

I agree.

I don't.

This is a relationship where BOTH parties "squirm" when "talking about the issues" even before the A. So, for Mr BH to be introduced to MB concepts, by his lawyer WW is going to take alot more time. RH is possible, but SadW has alot more to learn before she can truly model MB concepts.

Can she be hiding something? Sure.

But she needs to keep learning and needs to schedule something with Steve.

LG
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 06:31 PM
And SadW CAN discuss the things that she has learned from MB, and model those behaviors. This will bring about SOME change in her H. Maybe not enough, but some of the most powerful things that a wayward partner who is working hard to fix them selves is to learn about MB and then say:

"I had the A, and then I wanted to find out what was wrong with me, and these are the things that I have uncovered, and tried to repair. And this is where I learned these things, they can and WILL make our M better."


His comment about you seeing your "boyfriend" while he is hunting is one VERY GOOD reason for him NOT to go. Doesn't matter (to me) if your NOT going to go see your OM. If he is concerned about it, then he shouldn't GO. Or he should take YOU. Or he should talk to you about alternatives that allow him to feel safe.

Short of locking you in the basement...

Really, I am kidding...

LG
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 07:35 PM
By stealth, I meant I am presenting MB pieces at a time as they start to make sense to me. H is aware of what I am doing. Yesterday in our UA time we talked about some of the concepts -- I was able to pull up the site on my IPhone, read to him, and then we'd talk about it. Our tolerance level for this sort of thing is pretty low and it's easy for us to slip into mocking which feels safe to both of us, so I keep it short. We are using the terminology. His reaction to the POJA was EXACTLY what mine was when I read it the first time -- "I'll NEVER get to do ANYTHING."

We have a longstanding pattern of one of us giving up and withdrawing, the other going into panic mode and trying, the giving up spouse being so resentful that those efforts are wasted, the trying spouse giving up and withdrawing.... This is the first time we have been at the same point in the cycle. I'm moving slowly -- he's so raw right now and I know when I bring this stuff up it reminds him of the A. Slow is not my normal speed but I think it is right in this case.

We are both concerned about H's ability to meet my #1 EN which is stimulating conversation. I see now that my middle son has been meeting that need and with him going off to college, I peremptorily replaced him with the OM.

H knows me which is why he said that about the GPS. He doesn't want to stay married if he feels like he has to monitor my every move. As I said, my EP's are going to look a little different from the lists I've seen. We are going to have the EP conversation before we leave here in a few weeks and specifically address the September hunting. I don't know how to POJA hunting as for the last year plus I have been so miserable I haven't wanted him around leading to enthusiastic agreement that he should go on my part -- probably not the best reason though. I'll talk to Steve about it.

I asked whether a keylogger tracks Word documents because I was curious -- nothing more. He knows I journal and supports it. He looked at notes I had written for my psychiatrist one time in May--and I hit the roof so I don't think he will look again. The radical honesty thing is a goal, but I am nowhere near it.

I left the house and had a phone appointment with my psychiatrist this morning (H knew) which always makes my H very anxious because he knows I tell him stuff I'm not telling H. My psychiatrist's insistence over the last couple of years that I have not done everything humanly possible to save my marriage is the only reason I'm still married. My psychiatrist is not familiar with MB -- he's been saying a lot of the same stuff but disagrees with some of it. I'll have to sort that out and maybe talk to Steve about it too -- I need to prioritize prior to the coaching session which I have not yet scheduled since I haven't got my list formulated.

BTW, I have been reading this site since late May -- I needed a path forward in my M before I could end my A. I got my first 2x4 on June 16th when I read that people carry resentments/anger for as long as they are useful tools with which to commit emotional blackmail. I am so guilty of that, as is H -- 35 years of stuff is too much stuff -- we are going to have to skinny it down.

My specific question relates to the psychiatrist issue -- any thoughts on what I might say to H to make him less anxious about those appointments in the immediate future? I have another appointment scheduled for Monday.

Going to go work on my Steve list -- will check back here before I call which I will do by the end of the day. I'm setting myself up here -- if I tell you all I'm going to do it and don't do it, I am pretty sure of what your reaction will be.

I still can't figure out the quote thing, so if I fail to answer a question it's not because I'm being evasive -- it's because I have no short term memory left but I THINK I do so I THINK I'm going to remember what I have been asked.
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I still can't figure out the quote thing, so if I fail to answer a question it's not because I'm being evasive -- it's because I have no short term memory left but I THINK I do so I THINK I'm going to remember what I have been asked.
SW, instead of clicking the reply button hit the quote button. Then the post you are replying in will be in your text. I will post a test post and see if you can quote me.
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 07:42 PM
Here you go SW. Try and quote me.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 07:42 PM
For the psychiatrist, I would tell your H that your psych has been continually encouraging you to do everything possible in your M. I am not going to tell you to record your appointments with your doc and play them back for your H....because I don't do that. I also don't tell him the order in which my gynecologist does his job. It's a doctor visit. And I'm not going to censor what I tell my doctor because I have an illness, and the pdoc is part of the treatment. In other words, you don't POJA your health. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 08:00 PM
SW,

specifically address the September hunting.

Have your husband invite OM to hunting, if OM is game that is. Lots of land in Texas, if you can't find OMW, perhaps OMW can try to find him.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 10:16 PM
Now there's a plan destined to have consequences. OM, BH and guns together in the same place.

Is it always open season on OM in Texas?

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Now there's a plan destined to have consequences. OM, BH and guns together in the same place.

Is it always open season on OM in Texas?

[Linked Image from i39.photobucket.com]
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/21/10 11:46 PM
Ironic that you would suggest my H hunting with OM. My first "ick" moment with OM was when I emailed him when he was back in his home country that my H has discovered the A. OM's first reaction was "is he going to kill me" -- seriously. I thought "good heavens what a weenie -- my H is a hunter, not a murderer. If the wild Texas ways worry you, don't pursue married women -- how hard can that be?."

Told OM that my H is an excellent shot and a very good man and OM should be very, very thankful for the latter (that's a quote).

Astonishing that I couldn't see what was right in front of my face -- I'm foggy I know, but I am starting to see OM pretty damn clearly -- incredibly selfish jerk meets low hanging fruit with boundary issues. Sickening.

What a mess I have made.

Someday, a long long time from now, I will have to tell my H that story and about these posts. I promise you one day he and I will laugh about some of this -- humor is part of our healing. Don't worry, I know it will be years, but we will get there.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:04 AM
Read up: Become an expert on whatever he's hunting. Tell him something he may not know about the quarry's habits. Have him teach you how to clean his shotgun. Become an asset-in-boots. Or alternatively, Google "camouflage bra & panties." Order a set, and sneak into his truck before one of these trips with nothing else on. Take it as an intellectual challenge. Think outside-the-box & get creative. You need to be wooing him.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:17 AM
Camouflage bra and panties....Oh Lord! I just know I have some relatives who own some of those! I have so many single-wide, gun rack, Skoal spittin', Kroger parking lot sittin' remarks I could make....but I don't want to thread jack too much.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Camouflage bra and panties....Oh Lord! I just know I have some relatives who own some of those! I have so many single-wide, gun rack, Skoal spittin', Kroger parking lot sittin' remarks I could make....but I don't want to thread jack too much.
You True South'ners jes' crack me up. smirk
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Camouflage bra and panties....Oh Lord! I just know I have some relatives who own some of those! I have so many single-wide, gun rack, Skoal spittin', Kroger parking lot sittin' remarks I could make....but I don't want to thread jack too much.

In my neck of the woods, it's the Dairy Queen parking lot.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Camouflage bra and panties....Oh Lord! I just know I have some relatives who own some of those!.

You mean everyone doesn't wear cammie panties?? What do these yankee gals wear?? laugh
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:48 AM
They wear "bump-its" because they can't get their hair to REALLY pouf, and they also wear leggings with those big sweaters and carry huge suitcase handbags and say "You Guys" and "Soda." rotflmao
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:54 AM
Okay, you guys, seriously. I love me some soda at the end of a long day.

And don't hate on Dairy Queen. I grew up on their quality ice cream products. In fact, if I wasn't so worried about messing up my huge suitcase handbag, I would totally carry home a DQ ice cream cake RIGHT NOW.

But I don't let that little worry stop me. That's what my big sweater is for!

grin
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:55 AM
Or is the big sweater for after I consume said Dairy Queen ice cream cake?

I'm confused... dontknow
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by GloveOil
Or alternatively, Google "camouflage bra & panties."
[TJ]
GloveOil,

You so totally owe me a new monitor!!!!!!!
[/TJ]


SW,

I'm so happy to see you came back to face the fire. You're making progress. Remember, this is a marathon not a sprint. It will be the most difficult thing you have ever done, but it is a task you must undertake. It will be a roller coaster of ups and downs for quite a while. YOU need to keep your cool and weather them with grace and humility. That is the best thing you can do to help your BH heal. He needs to see through your actions that you are doing everything you possibly can to help rebuild from your choices. Really LISTEN to what the vets here are telling you. You may not always like what they have to say, but they will not lead you down the wrong path.

And change the stupid cellphone number already! The POSOM contacted my DW 14 months after NC was established. Do it for your peace of mind. Go to your BH and tell him you got the number changed because you love him and you will do anything to repair the damage you have done and to earn back the trust you so willingly threw away. He may say he doesn't need it, but do it anyways. I bet deep down he really does want you to, but his ego won't allow him to admit it yet. Hang in there and keep the faith...

Want2Stay
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by PM
In my neck of the woods, it's the Dairy Queen parking lot.
That would be right across from the CONOCO, right?

Down the block from the Super Walmart...

Where the TEXACO station was before they tore it down...

'Round the corner from the Piggly Wiggly...

On a more serious note...

SW,

Change the cell phone number and email address. My wife's OM contacted her after 13 months...

Mark

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Originally Posted by PM
In my neck of the woods, it's the Dairy Queen parking lot.
That would be right across from the CONOCO, right?

Down the block from the Super Walmart...

Where the TEXACO station was before they tore it down...

'Round the corner from the Piggly Wiggly...

You yankees don't have Piggly Wiggly and Texaco? Where do yankees shop?? crazy
Posted By: CWMI Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:39 AM
I was reading your thread and lol'd at this:

Quote
incredibly selfish jerk meets low hanging fruit with boundary issues.

What a great line. Change 'meets' to 'seeks' and you'd think it was a Craigslist ad! laugh
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:55 AM
Come on Mel. I happen to know there's only one Piggly Wiggly in the whole state of Texas...
[Linked Image from pigglywiggly.com]
It's on their website...

I made sure there was one before I posted that.

WE have White Castle.
[Linked Image from lpestore.com]
And REAL pizza.
[Linked Image from bandgconsolidated.com]

And the grocer's name is Dominick...
[Linked Image from dominicks.com]
It's Chicago, whaddaya 'xpect?


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Come on Mel. I happen to know there's only one Piggly Wiggly in the whole state of Texas...
[Linked Image from pigglywiggly.com]
It's on their website...

And your point is?? We all shop at dat store! laugh
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Camouflage bra and panties....Oh Lord! I just know I have some relatives who own some of those!.

You mean everyone doesn't wear cammie panties?? What do these yankee gals wear?? laugh

Mel,

This yankee farm gal wears bibs and NO panties! I mean really, it is hot out here. And to think GM almost gave that all up.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 04:13 AM
Ah, I remember my hometown Piggly Wiggly.

Right down the road from the airport.

I don't get it, though. All my life, I've been told "but you don't SOUND like a southerner!"

Guess I'm a Yank born into the wrong part 'o the country.

/tj
Posted By: AheadOfTheCurve Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 05:14 AM
Mark,

I grew up north of you in Illinois, and we had a Piggly Wiggly in my hometown, with a Jewel/Osco in the town where I went to high school. The Pig has a Midwestern presence, trust me. However, the only Dominics in my neck of the woods are my DW's grandfather and her kid brother (middle name only).

Now I live in the Deep South, and within three miles of my house we have TWO Piggly Wigglys, TWO Publix, a Winn-Dixie, and TWO Super Wal-Marts.

I've been down here so long that I'll take Krystal over White Castle any day of the week.

But no real pizza. Darnit.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 05:47 AM
What is Publix? I've never heard of it before now.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 11:34 AM
Publix grocery store has the best key lime pie God ever allowed humans to create.....Darn, now I have to drive all the way across town to buy one. Auburn doesn't have a Pig anymore....too many Yankees moved in and it went out of business. In fact, one o' them fancy shmancy HEALTHY natural birkenstock grocery stores just opened up in its place. "Earthfare." Makes me wanna sing "Age of Aquarius."

SW, you better come back...the natives are restless. We are all in contempt of court!
Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane & Gloveoil (whose post seems to have mysteriously disappeared), I made the following statement within hours of appearing on this site:

"I gather this [forum]is not meant for the betraying spouse. If anyone knows of a [forum] point me to it."

No one told me I didn't belong here or that my thoughts and feelings should be limited to my own thread until the two of you tonight.

From my understanding, if there is a thread for newly waywards, we would all end up merely "commiserating" and heading down Wayward World Fantasyland to our own detriment, our spouses detriment, and the detriment of the world.
I was on another thread yesterday (Redeem_me)-- a new WW (D-Day: 07/07/10). I was showing some (what I thought was "empathy") and was quickly dealt with. Scotland suggested I go back to my own thread. I've respected his opinion, I don't want to harm her...so I..."don't know" really. I come to believe that the only thing I can say to her is...well, let me not get started because I can have a sharp tongue when I feel provoked.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
MelodyLane, you said I am akin to an alcoholic and need to get more or less sober (I'm paraphrasing here) before I try to help anyone else.

Me too. This kinda makes sense. So I am trying to take the cotton out of my ears...

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I've never been to an AA meeting, but if only those who are recovered (by whatever definition) are given a voice, I can't imagine it would help the people there getting their one day chip. I'm guessing those folks who only hear of the wonderful success of the people who have been sober for 1, 5 10, 20 years, take their chip and go to the 7-11 and buy a 6 pack. I understood the AA program to be people reaching across all levels of recovery to help those in a different place.

Nope. "Wrong." That's what MamaBear told me. I have this whole AA thing wrong and so do you. (We shouldn't derive our understanding of AA from movies.) She says that in AA, the vets speak and the newbies (pretty much) shut up and say "thank you". We're going to have to take her word for that. I never went to an AA meeting, either.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I'm guessing (and I'm sure MB has statistics on this) that the vast majority of threads are begun by BS's

Well, I guess that's fair enough. They've been wronged and deserve more support than waywards...???

Originally Posted by saddestwife
My read is that this forum is driven by BW's and their WH's, neither of whom have any room for compassion for the WW.

Waywards don't deserve compassion. I, at least, understand that much. This is not a place for that. Waywards are to be lined up before the firing squad and "dealt with" expeditiously. It is only this sort of harsh treatment that will wake you up to the realities of life outside of the fog-realm. I'm being quite serious. There are numerous waywards here who will attest to the fact that this sort of treatment is what turned them around. They are now outside of the fog. One day we will look back and understand how stupid we are for not being gracious in accepting our just desserts.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
If there is another WW who has had the c*** beaten out of her and come back day after day spewing her nonsense like I have, I haven't found the thread -- but I'm actively looking.

Hi, Saddest. I'm Fullmoon. Nice to meet you. I have read halfway through your thread-- not the entire thing. I am not trying to commiserate with you...so don't get the wrong idea. I'm just saying hello.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
There is a lot of talk here about MB principles. For example, I was told with great vigor that my feelings are irrelevant, and indeed offensive, that if H wanted the "gory details", I must tell him -- no context, just tell him, that I must offer my H "Extraordinary Measures" and if I was unwilling I should divorce him. I could go on, but I won't.

Your feelings don't matter 'cause they aren't real. And neither are mine.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
You say I shouldn't post on other forums until I have my own house in order. You say I need to conform to MB principles when I post. Please show me where in the MB principles you find the content of the posts from not2fun and black-raven to me above. Because I am absolutely certain that MB principles don't say I need to do whatever H asks for whatever time he says, and I am POSITIVE that MB principles say that the ONLY way to affair proof a marriage is to ensure that each spouse's most important emotional needs are met -- i.e., the only way to affair proof my marriage is for my H to be nice to me and me to be nice to him and for us to fall in love again.

Lawyers, present and former, should not be on this forum with *THAT* sort of nonconformist thinking.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
You don't want my voice in the forum at large, fine. I'll shut up. But the numbers of me are growing.

This is the only thing you've been right about.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I am stubborn and strong -- most women who are coming out of an A are just not. You will absolutely without question run them off just with the content -- the majority of the few who dare to post will quickly leave, of those who stay most will say what your want to hear because they are desperate lonely women in withdrawal who need any kind of affirmation, and then there are the me's.

D*mn it, are we related!?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 01:06 PM
Very hard to get real pizza out west.

West of the Hudson River.

Where civilization ends.
Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 01:49 PM
Saddest,

I was in the store yesterday directly after a workout...my first in several months. (Off topic: working out was the best time of my day. It certainly relieves both the mind and body of stress...such as this...)

So, I was looking rather unkept (I thought)...interestingly enough, random people were talking to me. One lady talked to me for 15 or 20 minutes and didn't know me from Tom, [censored], or Harry. She went into all different topics: she mentioned her ex-husband who cheated on her. My ears perked up and I encouraged her to talk. She had been married to him for 26 years and he cheated, moved in with OW. I asked if she forgave him. She did forgive him...once. But eventually she divorced him. This all happened years ago. Yet it is so fresh that she is telling a complete stranger in the store about it...about their son choosing him and moving in with them, the OW kicking the son out when he was of age, how she took him to the cleaners in the divorce settlement, how cheating is just "nasty", how it is just "not there" (not "in her") to date again.

I do "get it" why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS, why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...because they are still hurting and effected by it every sinlge day. Years later. I, also, believe that they have our best interests at heart in "de-fogging" waywards...but they speak from pain. I am not trying to minimize that or be disrespectful to that when I speak...write...but it seems that the fact that I even have feelings at all (post EA) is blasphemous. This is the part I "don't get".

In that case, there is no one here who has yet recovered. When does "recovery" end if they don't release the pain? ...if they don't "let go"? ...if they have to live looking over their shoulders (at their wayward) waiting for the other shoe to drop? How can you truly forgive if you expect someone now to "bow down before you" for their mistake/poor behavior (A)? WWJD? I am saying none of this to be flippant, rude...these are all legitimate questions. I truly want to understand.

Fullmoon
Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
SW, you better come back...the natives are restless. We are all in contempt of court!

Luri, I'm here for you if you have an opinion on my questions...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:18 PM
fullmoon, a sign of a fogged out wayward mind is someone who worries more about GETTING forgiveness than in doing the things to EARN IT. It sounds to me like you are overly enamored with the former.

Quote
I do "get it" why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS, why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...

I hope that you do understand why there is no "compassion" for the perpetrator because that would be ridiculous. When someone is raped are we concerned about the rape victim or the rapist?

Quote
. I am not trying to minimize that or be disrespectful to that when I speak...write...but it seems that the fact that I even have feelings at all (post EA) is blasphemous.

It depends on WHAT your feelings are. If they are unproductive feelings, ie: longing for a filthy affair, then no one wants to listen to that crap. Those kind of feelings are unproductive and no one is going to help you be unproductive.

Its sort like in AA meeting. They don't allow the newcomers to blather on about how much they miss booze. That is a waste of time and a distraction. Yes, we know they miss booze, but as long as a person is focused on booze, they are not focused on recovery. The same with adultery.

Quote
When does "recovery" end if they don't release the pain? ...if they don't "let go"? ...

Usually never. This is a scar that remains with most people for life. This is more traumatic than rape of the death of a child. That is not something that just "goes away. "
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Usually never. This is a scar that remains with most people for life. This is more traumatic than rape of the death of a child. That is not something that just "goes away. "


And just so no one thinks ML is speaking metaphorically or hyperbolically, THIS was posted yesterday by a BS on this forum:

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Actually we had a child 3 years ago who passed a day after he was born.

Honestly (call me cold) but this hurts worse than his passing. His was a tradgedy. An accident. This was a purposeful and hurtful thing done deliberately...

NO, fm - you don't 'get it' not yet. You think you do, but you don't.

Hopefully you will.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:35 PM
fullmoon, thank you for your offer of support. In three days I will have a 4-year D-Day anniversary. And I can tell you that my feelings post D-Day were very real, very intense, and very valid.

And the vets are right.

I missed the OM. So what? Was dwelling on him and analyzing why I "loved" him and trying to figure out "how" to not think about what I was thinking about when I shouldn't be thinking it going to help my M? Nope. And IS there a difference between hurting because someone cut your arm off and hurting because you cut your own arm off? Yep. And does a marriage recover faster if a WS focuses on their devastated BS with humility. responsibility, and patience? You betcha. And is vicitmhood and sarcastic attempts to induce guilt and cry woe-is-me highly unattractive? Boy howdy!

I have been a WS. I thought I loved OM. I was miserable in an emotionless, roommate, sexless M. I know exactly how it feels to be a victim of your own bad choices. And all that really matters is that A. I stopped cheating B. I was broken and truly repentant over what I had done and C. I was willing to do whatever it took for as long as it took to repair MY stuff in the M without looking for applause (because that is what I should have been doing anyway instead of rocking the bed with OM).

I don't mean to be insensitive, but if WS's would spend all the time they use constructing arguments and dramatizing and sympathizing and trying to make others feel bad for making them feel bad actually looking the horror of what they CHOSE full in the face and acting from humility.....A lot more M's would be saved a lot faster.

If you ever have physical therapy for surgery or an injury, you will find that the best physical therapists are not the ones who hand you tissues and pat you and tell you they know your knee hurts. The best ones will urge you to keep going, bend father, work through the pain, so that you can get your range of motion back.
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
I do "get it" why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS, why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...because they are still hurting and effected by it every sinlge day. Years later. I, also, believe that they have our best interests at heart in "de-fogging" waywards...but they speak from pain. I am not trying to minimize that or be disrespectful to that when I speak...write...but it seems that the fact that I even have feelings at all (post EA) is blasphemous. This is the part I "don't get".

FM,

The fact that you posted the quote above is proof in and of itself just how much you don't "get it." You seem to be under the impression that forgiveness and still hurting over the injuries that were inflicted upon us are mutually exclusive. You see, I'm working on forgiveness because deep down I believe my DW made a horrible mistake. The flip side of that is I will NEVER EVER be OK with what she choose to do to our M and my heart still aches over the pain it caused and the things I lost. That's just the nature of the beast. You think you know what it is like to be on the betrayed side of the fence, but you really have no idea. You can't fathom the pain a BS goes through. Let me put it to you this way. If I had the choice of going through this mess again or say......jumping into a wood chipper feet first. I'd jump.

Want2Stay
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
I do "get it"

No, FM, you don't yet get it. It's almost humorous how you keep telling everyone you do, while the rest of your post demonstrates that you don't.

Except it's not...humorous.

It's sad.



Quote
why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS,


We don't "disregard" their feelings. But a wayward's feelings will lead them to destruction...and they will take many others with them.

And eventually, their feelings will change.

Because that's what feelings do.

Change.

Just like your feelings toward your husband have changed...and can change again.

And MB can teach you how to create and sustain romantic love for your husband. It will help you see why your feelings changed and how to prevent that from happening again once you have rebuilt your love for each other.





Quote
why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...because they are still hurting and effected by it every sinlge day.

This is a common approach that waywards, especially wayward wives, often take here.

But it is incorrect.

Oh, yes, many here are hurting. But they wouldn't be here if they wanted WS's to pay. You see, this site is all about not making anyone pay. It is about rebuilding what was meant to last forever...a marriage.

But we don't misplace our compassion.

You see, one day, if you do come out of the fog, you will hurt like you cannot imagine hurting. Many say it's even worse than a BS's pain.

One day, if your mind clears, you will stare the destruction of adultery in the face...and know that it was at your hands.

When all your defensiveness, justifications, and rationalizations are stripped away, your soul will ache for what you have done.

And you will find compassion here.

Because that is the appropriate time for it.

You see we know what you can become. A person of integrity. A person worthy of trust. A woman who loves her husband and protects her marriage.

We WANT that for you, and SW, and RM, and every other wayward who shows up here. We don't want to leave you in the muck you are sitting in. It's so deep it's past your eyeballs. All you see is muck.

We see what you can become...and we are hopeful for you.




Quote
Years later. I, also, believe that they have our best interests at heart in "de-fogging" waywards...but they speak from pain.


We speak from experience.



Quote
I am not trying to minimize that or be disrespectful to that when I speak...write...but it seems that the fact that I even have feelings at all (post EA) is blasphemous. This is the part I "don't get".


It's not blasphemous.

It's typical....just like your affair. Not unique.

It is to be expected.

But if my child came to me sulking because he cannot drink lighter fluid, I would not commisserate with her. I would not say, "Oh you poor dear. I see how badly you feel and I understand how much you are sacrificing by not partaking in that sweet drink. Tell me more about your feelings about that lighter fluid. Do you think it would taste delicious? Did it taste delicious last time you had a sip and I took you to the ER? Tell me more about the flavor you remember?"


Uhm,NO! I would tell my child, "Lighter fluid is toxic...poison...and it will destroy you! You must stop thinking about it and dwelling on your memories of it! I love you too much to let you continue these dangerous thoughts. Let's focus on quenching your thirst with an appropriate drink."




Quote
In that case, there is no one here who has yet recovered.

You'd be spending your time and mental energy more effectively if you would stop trying to justify why you shouldn't listen to the wisdom here.

Many, many couples on this board are recovered. My marriage is fully recovered. Yes, fully. I have not spoken to you or any other wayward wife from a place of anger or pain. I speak to you from a place of hope.

Because I KNOW what lies ahead for all of you who choose to put your eyes and minds back where they belong...on your spouse.

It's something beautiful.



Quote
...if they have to live looking over their shoulders (at their wayward) waiting for the other shoe to drop?


I'm not waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My FWH has created solid EPs to protect our marriage. He chose to become trustworthy, so it is very easy to trust him today. There is no "other shoe".


Quote
How can you truly forgive if you expect someone now to "bow down before you" for their mistake/poor behavior (A)?

No one expects a WS to "bow down before" anyone. We do expect them to pick up the pieces of the lives they destroyed and do their best to rebuild them.

Do you really think it's too much to ask someone to do their best to rebuild their lives?


Quote
WWJD?


Well, now, there's a good question, FM. What WOULD Jesus do? Would he leave the victims lying in ashes, or would He pick them up and carry them to safety? Would he tend to their wounds and nurture and serve them?


Quote
I am saying none of this to be flippant, rude...these are all legitimate questions. I truly want to understand.

Fullmoon


That's hard to believe, but I'm going to take you on your word.

I will tell you that not a single BS here wants a WS to get what they deserve. BS's come here because they love the person they married and they are willing to do some incredibly painful things to help rebuild love in their marriage.
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
Saddest,

I was in the store yesterday directly after a workout...my first in several months. (Off topic: working out was the best time of my day. It certainly relieves both the mind and body of stress...such as this...)

So, I was looking rather unkept (I thought)...interestingly enough, random people were talking to me. One lady talked to me for 15 or 20 minutes and didn't know me from Tom, [censored], or Harry. She went into all different topics: she mentioned her ex-husband who cheated on her. My ears perked up and I encouraged her to talk. She had been married to him for 26 years and he cheated, moved in with OW. I asked if she forgave him. She did forgive him...once. But eventually she divorced him. This all happened years ago. Yet it is so fresh that she is telling a complete stranger in the store about it...about their son choosing him and moving in with them, the OW kicking the son out when he was of age, how she took him to the cleaners in the divorce settlement, how cheating is just "nasty", how it is just "not there" (not "in her") to date again.

I do "get it" why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS, why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...because they are still hurting and effected by it every sinlge day. Years later. I, also, believe that they have our best interests at heart in "de-fogging" waywards...but they speak from pain. I am not trying to minimize that or be disrespectful to that when I speak...write...but it seems that the fact that I even have feelings at all (post EA) is blasphemous. This is the part I "don't get".

In that case, there is no one here who has yet recovered. When does "recovery" end if they don't release the pain? ...if they don't "let go"? ...if they have to live looking over their shoulders (at their wayward) waiting for the other shoe to drop? How can you truly forgive if you expect someone now to "bow down before you" for their mistake/poor behavior (A)? WWJD? I am saying none of this to be flippant, rude...these are all legitimate questions. I truly want to understand.

Fullmoon




Just quoting
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:04 PM
clap clap

You said it SMB!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
I do "get it" why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS, why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...because they are still hurting and effected by it every sinlge day.

Misplaced compassion gives power to evil.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by sexymamabear
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
I do "get it"

No, FM, you don't yet get it. It's almost humorous how you keep telling everyone you do, while the rest of your post demonstrates that you don't.

Except it's not...humorous.

It's sad.



Quote
why the BS and others on this board completely disregard the feelings of the WS,


We don't "disregard" their feelings. But a wayward's feelings will lead them to destruction...and they will take many others with them.

And eventually, their feelings will change.

Because that's what feelings do.

Change.

Just like your feelings toward your husband have changed...and can change again.

And MB can teach you how to create and sustain romantic love for your husband. It will help you see why your feelings changed and how to prevent that from happening again once you have rebuilt your love for each other.





Quote
why there is no room for compassion/relating/empathy...because they are still hurting and effected by it every sinlge day.

This is a common approach that waywards, especially wayward wives, often take here.

But it is incorrect.

Oh, yes, many here are hurting. But they wouldn't be here if they wanted WS's to pay. You see, this site is all about not making anyone pay. It is about rebuilding what was meant to last forever...a marriage.

But we don't misplace our compassion.

You see, one day, if you do come out of the fog, you will hurt like you cannot imagine hurting. Many say it's even worse than a BS's pain.

One day, if your mind clears, you will stare the destruction of adultery in the face...and know that it was at your hands.

When all your defensiveness, justifications, and rationalizations are stripped away, your soul will ache for what you have done.

And you will find compassion here.

Because that is the appropriate time for it.

You see we know what you can become. A person of integrity. A person worthy of trust. A woman who loves her husband and protects her marriage.

We WANT that for you, and SW, and RM, and every other wayward who shows up here. We don't want to leave you in the muck you are sitting in. It's so deep it's past your eyeballs. All you see is muck.

We see what you can become...and we are hopeful for you.




Quote
Years later. I, also, believe that they have our best interests at heart in "de-fogging" waywards...but they speak from pain.


We speak from experience.



Quote
I am not trying to minimize that or be disrespectful to that when I speak...write...but it seems that the fact that I even have feelings at all (post EA) is blasphemous. This is the part I "don't get".


It's not blasphemous.

It's typical....just like your affair. Not unique.

It is to be expected.

But if my child came to me sulking because he cannot drink lighter fluid, I would not commisserate with her. I would not say, "Oh you poor dear. I see how badly you feel and I understand how much you are sacrificing by not partaking in that sweet drink. Tell me more about your feelings about that lighter fluid. Do you think it would taste delicious? Did it taste delicious last time you had a sip and I took you to the ER? Tell me more about the flavor you remember?"


Uhm,NO! I would tell my child, "Lighter fluid is toxic...poison...and it will destroy you! You must stop thinking about it and dwelling on your memories of it! I love you too much to let you continue these dangerous thoughts. Let's focus on quenching your thirst with an appropriate drink."




Quote
In that case, there is no one here who has yet recovered.

You'd be spending your time and mental energy more effectively if you would stop trying to justify why you shouldn't listen to the wisdom here.

Many, many couples on this board are recovered. My marriage is fully recovered. Yes, fully. I have not spoken to you or any other wayward wife from a place of anger or pain. I speak to you from a place of hope.

Because I KNOW what lies ahead for all of you who choose to put your eyes and minds back where they belong...on your spouse.

It's something beautiful.



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...if they have to live looking over their shoulders (at their wayward) waiting for the other shoe to drop?


I'm not waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My FWH has created solid EPs to protect our marriage. He chose to become trustworthy, so it is very easy to trust him today. There is no "other shoe".


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How can you truly forgive if you expect someone now to "bow down before you" for their mistake/poor behavior (A)?

No one expects a WS to "bow down before" anyone. We do expect them to pick up the pieces of the lives they destroyed and do their best to rebuild them.

Do you really think it's too much to ask someone to do their best to rebuild their lives?


Quote
WWJD?


Well, now, there's a good question, FM. What WOULD Jesus do? Would he leave the victims lying in ashes, or would He pick them up and carry them to safety? Would he tend to their wounds and nurture and serve them?


Quote
I am saying none of this to be flippant, rude...these are all legitimate questions. I truly want to understand.

Fullmoon


That's hard to believe, but I'm going to take you on your word.

I will tell you that not a single BS here wants a WS to get what they deserve. BS's come here because they love the person they married and they are willing to do some incredibly painful things to help rebuild love in their marriage.

Excellent post, smb! hurray
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 03:36 PM
Great post, SMB! The reason she is so fogged out is because she has not ended CONTACT WITH HER OM and plans on seeing him again. She is not in the least serious about recovery.

Originally Posted by fullmoon
The reality is, I have had NC with OM. There is an event coming up that we all must be at together next month. I am hoping that I just keep my mouth shut and not say anything to him except "hi". I'm hoping that my feelings are well under control by that point. But I am not 100% certain of that. Just stating that to you (BS) would be deemed as drooling, right? Where do I express that sort of feeling? [Scotland is right, maybe I should move this to my thread...]
\
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 04:43 PM
I have to tell you about our date last night. And remember I don't have a romantic bone in my body.

We were having dinner sitting outside next to this fence that is constructed such that flower pots can be set in the top -- stunning. I suggested we build something similar for our yard. My H is a train wreck, too much time to think and not enough to do and he likes building stuff as do I (a woman with a stud finder and a power drill really doesn't need a man). So I suggested we build one this weekend and I'll do the pots -- I love to plant flowers.

And then it hit me -- my M is something we build together into which I place all that is beautiful about me and then we tend it and it grows. And something in me broke -- not in a bad way, and a felt some of my resistance and defensiveness seep out.

I read in some AA thing -- like most, I have had alcoholics in my life -- that part of the challenge of an alcoholic is to endure the white hot flames of love. That stuck with me.

So we are building it this weekend and it is going to be my commitment fence. We are coming back in September for our anniversary and I am going to put a plaque on it to that effect and that will be my gift to him.

I may not be romantic -- but I do like my metaphors.

full_moon, I'm not posting on other threads, but am going to offer this for what it may be worth if you see it.

It has recently dawned on me that OM is a homewrecking SOB who ignored my wedding ring and my resistance and relentlessly pursued something he wanted (me). He didn't care one whit what impact his pursuit had on me, and I'm sure that he never considered the impact on my HUSBAND and my CHILDREN. He's a s***head.

I am not suggesting that all OM are like him because I don't know. But if all WS have things in common, and all BS's have things in common, possibly all AP's have things in common. You might try looking for similar traits in your OM. It seems to me that anyone who has an A with a married person is by definition greedy and selfish -- taking something that belongs to someone else without regard for the pain it might cause.

Just a thought.
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 04:50 PM
Me and Sapph love home projects. Buying stuff, putting it together....together. Its one of our recreational needs. We often spend time in Home Depot on our dates making plans and budgeting....lol.
Posted By: Lookin4Serenity Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 04:56 PM

And then it hit me -- my M is something we build together into which I place all that is beautiful about me and then we tend it and it grows.

Don't forget to plant the things that are beautiful about your BS also.



Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
a woman with a stud finder and a power drill really doesn't need a man
rotflmao
Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Great post, SMB! The reason she is so fogged out is because she has not ended CONTACT WITH HER OM and plans on seeing him again. She is not in the least serious about recovery.

ML, I have had NC with OM. There is a wedding that we all must be at next month. What am I to do about that?

In any case, thanks for your responses...though I shouldn't muddy up SW board with my questions. I can't stand to dig up my own thread...but I will try to reply to other comments on my thread so that the focus here will be on SW's questions.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Great post, SMB! The reason she is so fogged out is because she has not ended CONTACT WITH HER OM and plans on seeing him again. She is not in the least serious about recovery.

ML, I have had NC with OM. There is a wedding that we all must be at next month. What am I to do about that?

If you were serious about recovery you wouldn't be asking me that question, you would have already resolved the problem.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Great post, SMB! The reason she is so fogged out is because she has not ended CONTACT WITH HER OM and plans on seeing him again. She is not in the least serious about recovery.

ML, I have had NC with OM. There is a wedding that we all must be at next month. What am I to do about that?

In any case, thanks for your responses...though I shouldn't muddy up SW board with my questions. I can't stand to dig up my own thread...but I will try to reply to other comments on my thread so that the focus here will be on SW's questions.
I have bumped your thread and also asked you a question.
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
ML, I have had NC with OM. There is a wedding that we all must be at next month. What am I to do about that?




Tell BH who OM is and do not attend the wedding.

Do we really have to point that out?

I am glad to hear you are taking this to your thread, because RM needs to get focused on HER marriage.
Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/22/10 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
It has recently dawned on me that OM is a homewrecking SOB who ignored my wedding ring and my resistance and relentlessly pursued something he wanted (me). He didn't care one whit what impact his pursuit had on me, and I'm sure that he never considered the impact on my HUSBAND and my CHILDREN. He's a s***head.

I am not suggesting that all OM are like him because I don't know. But if all WS have things in common, and all BS's have things in common, possibly all AP's have things in common. You might try looking for similar traits in your OM. It seems to me that anyone who has an A with a married person is by definition greedy and selfish -- taking something that belongs to someone else without regard for the pain it might cause.

Just a thought.

sigh...I thought about that. What is his (OM) problem flirting with me/etc., anyway, in his own friend's house? Then I thought that, maybe, I was misreading things...and I kept defending him as the innocent bystander. BUT, the vets told me not to focus on that...but to focus on fixing myself. That's what I am trying to do...though I suppose I am a bit "difficult".

Last night, my H just finished talking to a family member whose spouse is currently involved in a PA. [It's an epidemic!] At this point, She (the WS) is entirely unremorseful. My H was thinking how awful it must be to be *that* family member. He said that he loves me so much, we are all we have in the world, and that I should never leave him. Then, he asked, "Do you still want to cheat on me?" [He means PA. He doesn't consider EA cheating.] I told him "I never wanted to cheat on you. It was not about that." But, even in that little exchange, I see now that my H is "concerned"...and I hate that. I want to make that go away. I want him to recover and never look back...just forget I said anything about EA. But I see from a few posts here that recovery never ends. Like AA ?!@?! That's a scary thought.

They, the vets, have plenty to say to me right now about how I think I "get it"...but I don't. So, I am going to take some time now to just listen/read, "take out my cotton", workout some more, and consider why I'm not getting it.

Your fence sounds lovely.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
... I see now that my H is "concerned"...and I hate that. I want to make that go away. I want him to recover and never look back...just forget I said anything about EA. But I see from a few posts here that recovery never ends. Like AA ?!@?! That's a scary thought.
[Sorry for the t/j, but it may apply to Saddest's case too]-- fullmoon, your husband may be more aware. Perhaps you are even more aware. That awareness is a burden. But in that awareness lies the chance to protect & strengthen your marriage. What would really be scary is if you weren't aware of how easily a marriage that's on auto-pilot can slip out of control, or how easily a misplaced confidence in someone outside the marriage can tear your life apart. Now that would be scary!

And "recovery never ends" is a weirdly negative way to spin it. Done right, recovery takes your marriage to places it's never been before. You don't want to go back to the way your relationship was before... you want it to be better than it was before. That should be your goal. If by "recovery ending" you mean that you want to have everything revert back to the way it was prior to your EA, then you're not understanding. Back then, you were less aware of the dangers, less aware of your & H's needs, less aware of the vulnerabilities that arise where needs aren't met on either side of a marriage. You knew less about how to protect yourself. As you can see from my latest post on your own thread, I still don't think you're as aware as you ought to be. But would you ever want to go back to your previous lack of awareness?

Ignorance is bliss only to the ignorant.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:30 AM
SuzieQ, you do know it is not me, SW, with the wedding issue, right? I am avoiding all places where there is the slightest chance I might run into OM like the plague for the foreseeable future because if I saw him, however innocently, I will have to tell my H and I know what the look on his face would be and I WILL NOT DO THAT TO HIM.

Fullmoon, I read your threads and other WW's because I want the wisdom of the posters there -- they've spent way too much time on me -- NOT to try to identify with other WW's. Yes it's painful, yes it sucks, yes we did it to ourselves which would actually be OK but the blast zone for an A goes way beyond us.

The reality is that all we WS's can do if we talk to each other is screw each other up worse. If we had a CLUE we wouldn't be here in the first place.

I'm not trying to be ugly at all -- but would you please post on your thread and not mine? I'm getting to be elderly and easily confused.....
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
SuzieQ, you do know it is not me, SW, with the wedding issue, right? I am avoiding all places where there is the slightest chance I might run into OM like the plague for the foreseeable future because if I saw him, however innocently, I will have to tell my H and I know what the look on his face would be and I WILL NOT DO THAT TO HIM.

Fullmoon, I read your threads and other WW's because I want the wisdom of the posters there -- they've spent way too much time on me -- NOT to try to identify with other WW's. Yes it's painful, yes it sucks, yes we did it to ourselves which would actually be OK but the blast zone for an A goes way beyond us.

The reality is that all we WS's can do if we talk to each other is screw each other up worse. If we had a CLUE we wouldn't be here in the first place.

I'm not trying to be ugly at all -- but would you please post on your thread and not mine? I'm getting to be elderly and easily confused.....



{{{{{SW}}}}}

BTW, that's a hug, just in case you didn't know.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The reality is that all we WS's can do if we talk to each other is screw each other up worse. If we had a CLUE we wouldn't be here in the first place.

The fog is rolling out!!! clap
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
So we are building it this weekend and it is going to be my commitment fence. We are coming back in September for our anniversary and I am going to put a plaque on it to that effect and that will be my gift to him.

Saddest, I'm a "tool" guy, and I've gotta tell ya, man, that's beautiful. Don't be so all undivided-attention that you smash your thumb with a 5-lb. sledge, but do have a wonderful time together.

True story: This past year, right after Thanksgiving ('09), my wife and I repainted our living room. The immediate impetus was that (a) the previous owners had left the room a butt-ugly color that we had put up with for the entire 7 years since we'd moved in, and (b) we wanted the job done before Christmas, and so we had to get it done fast since I was scheduled for rotator-cuff surgery in early December. As it happened, it was the same time of year as I'd let my affair go totally out-of-control the previous year.

So we did everything over about 2 days -- the patching & spackling & sanding & masking & all of it. Being together for that time & having a common goal & agreeing on the color & listening to Christmas music and creating something beautiful in our home that we would enjoy together for the years to come, and creating a good memory for that time of year that belonged solely to us, was a wonderful time of healing & rebuilding for us.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by suamico
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I still can't figure out the quote thing, so if I fail to answer a question it's not because I'm being evasive -- it's because I have no short term memory left but I THINK I do so I THINK I'm going to remember what I have been asked.
SW, instead of clicking the reply button hit the quote button. Then the post you are replying in will be in your text. I will post a test post and see if you can quote me.

Did I do it? I guess I'll see.

Now.... where are the moving emoticons that Mel uses on me because she knows I get so mad the top of my head feels like it's going to blow off.

BTW -- love the Piggly Wiggly stuff -- the South is the South and don't any of you all EVER forget it. Southerners know what I mean. We pity the rest of you -- really.

Cammo panties and bra? Check that one done. That's the kind of box I like to think out of... you are a genius -- can't wait for that night.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
[BTW -- love the Piggly Wiggly stuff -- the South is the South and don't any of you all EVER forget it. Southerners know what I mean. We pity the rest of you -- really.

This is true. They can't help their yankeeselves... sigh
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 02:59 AM
I am picturing a very professional attorney, ready for bear in her next case (which she is sure to win). She has on a dark suit, pearls, and some intimdating and attractive pumps that go "click click" down the hall........and she has camo undies on? Now them New York City lawyers would NEVER be that cool!
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
The reality is that all we WS's can do if we talk to each other is screw each other up worse. If we had a CLUE we wouldn't be here in the first place.
SW,

I was beginning to wonder there SW. You are one stubborn cookie, but now that the fog appears to be clearing, you can use that to your advantage to get the M you deserve. Take it one day at a time. You're getting there.

dance2

clap

Want2Stay
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I am picturing a very professional attorney, ready for bear in her next case (which she is sure to win). She has on a dark suit, pearls, and some intimdating and attractive pumps that go "click click" down the hall........and she has camo undies on? Now them New York City lawyers would NEVER be that cool!
Luri,

rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao

Want2Stay
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 03:20 AM
SadW, I was out of MB for about 24 hours and THIS happens? You are doing so great. Keep it up. Don't have anything to add except encouragement.

BTW, I want to clear something up. I AM A GIRL. ARGH, Why do people keep messing that up? I should write all my posts in pink now. laugh
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
SuzieQ, you do know it is not me, SW, with the wedding issue, right? I am avoiding all places where there is the slightest chance I might run into OM like the plague for the foreseeable future because if I saw him, however innocently, I will have to tell my H and I know what the look on his face would be and I WILL NOT DO THAT TO HIM.

Fullmoon, I read your threads and other WW's because I want the wisdom of the posters there -- they've spent way too much time on me -- NOT to try to identify with other WW's. Yes it's painful, yes it sucks, yes we did it to ourselves which would actually be OK but the blast zone for an A goes way beyond us.

The reality is that all we WS's can do if we talk to each other is screw each other up worse. If we had a CLUE we wouldn't be here in the first place.

I'm not trying to be ugly at all -- but would you please post on your thread and not mine? I'm getting to be elderly and easily confused.....
Yes, SW, I knew that wasn't you!

It definitely sounds like the fog is starting to clear. hurray Keep it up! smile
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 03:48 AM
SW,

Way to go! You are getting it. Your fence idea is perfect.

Last spring GM and I picked out a piece of pasture and had it plowed (I don't have a plow so we had to hire that done) and then proceeded to build a 2500 sq.ft. garden. It took us the better part of a month, it is very well done with t-posts every 4 feet and we put up the fence like we never wanted to deal with it again. It kept us from uncomfortable LB's while we worked on it and moved us forward just a bit. It is a great garden. Triggers me a bit since he fed his AP out of the small garden I did alone previously but it is a challenge now for me to learn to deal with them, there are so many. It won't hurt in the long run.

For valentines day a number of years ago GM gave me a chain saw and I gave him a ring. It is pretty funny when I think back on it because I am terrified of that stupid saw (I have used it though) and he lost the ring along with the wedding band that he refused to wear. Oh well, such was the state of our marriage then.

I agree with you on the tools smile Have fun building and planting. Enjoy each other.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 04:08 AM
Ditto on the encouragement!
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by saddestwife
[BTW -- love the Piggly Wiggly stuff -- the South is the South and don't any of you all EVER forget it. Southerners know what I mean. We pity the rest of you -- really.

This is true. They can't help their yankeeselves... sigh

Bless their hearts.
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
SW,

Way to go! You are getting it. Your fence idea is perfect.

Last spring GM and I picked out a piece of pasture and had it plowed (I don't have a plow so we had to hire that done) and then proceeded to build a 2500 sq.ft. garden. It took us the better part of a month, it is very well done with t-posts every 4 feet and we put up the fence like we never wanted to deal with it again. It kept us from uncomfortable LB's while we worked on it and moved us forward just a bit. It is a great garden. Triggers me a bit since he fed his AP out of the small garden I did alone previously but it is a challenge now for me to learn to deal with them, there are so many. It won't hurt in the long run.

For valentines day a number of years ago GM gave me a chain saw and I gave him a ring. It is pretty funny when I think back on it because I am terrified of that stupid saw (I have used it though) and he lost the ring along with the wedding band that he refused to wear. Oh well, such was the state of our marriage then.

I agree with you on the tools smile Have fun building and planting. Enjoy each other.

DWG and GM's version of Gift of the Magi.
DWG: "Hun I sold my lumber collection to buy you a ring".
GM: "I accidentally cut off my finger with this chain saw I got you."
DWG/GM: "ahhhhh romantic."
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
SW,

Way to go! You are getting it. Your fence idea is perfect.

Last spring GM and I picked out a piece of pasture and had it plowed (I don't have a plow so we had to hire that done) and then proceeded to build a 2500 sq.ft. garden. It took us the better part of a month, it is very well done with t-posts every 4 feet and we put up the fence like we never wanted to deal with it again. It kept us from uncomfortable LB's while we worked on it and moved us forward just a bit. It is a great garden. Triggers me a bit since he fed his AP out of the small garden I did alone previously but it is a challenge now for me to learn to deal with them, there are so many. It won't hurt in the long run.

For valentines day a number of years ago GM gave me a chain saw and I gave him a ring. It is pretty funny when I think back on it because I am terrified of that stupid saw (I have used it though) and he lost the ring along with the wedding band that he refused to wear. Oh well, such was the state of our marriage then.

I agree with you on the tools smile Have fun building and planting. Enjoy each other.

DWG and GM's version of Gift of the Magi.
DWG: "Hun I sold my lumber collection to buy you a ring".
GM: "I accidentally cut off my finger with this chain saw I got you."
DWG/GM: "ahhhhh romantic."

The reply I have in mind probably would not go over too well here but just think of all the things I might have liked for him to remove with a chain saw back then. His finger was not one of them. smile Now I am quite happy he did not. blush
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
SW,

Way to go! You are getting it. Your fence idea is perfect.

Last spring GM and I picked out a piece of pasture and had it plowed (I don't have a plow so we had to hire that done) and then proceeded to build a 2500 sq.ft. garden. It took us the better part of a month, it is very well done with t-posts every 4 feet and we put up the fence like we never wanted to deal with it again. It kept us from uncomfortable LB's while we worked on it and moved us forward just a bit. It is a great garden. Triggers me a bit since he fed his AP out of the small garden I did alone previously but it is a challenge now for me to learn to deal with them, there are so many. It won't hurt in the long run.

For valentines day a number of years ago GM gave me a chain saw and I gave him a ring. It is pretty funny when I think back on it because I am terrified of that stupid saw (I have used it though) and he lost the ring along with the wedding band that he refused to wear. Oh well, such was the state of our marriage then.

I agree with you on the tools smile Have fun building and planting. Enjoy each other.

DWG and GM's version of Gift of the Magi.
DWG: "Hun I sold my lumber collection to buy you a ring".
GM: "I accidentally cut off my finger with this chain saw I got you."
DWG/GM: "ahhhhh romantic."

The reply I have in mind probably would not go over too well here but just think of all the things I might have liked for him to remove with a chain saw back then. His finger was not one of them. smile Now I am quite happy he did not. blush

Gutter mind warning!

Well now you can always buy a ring for down there too. blush
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
SW,

Way to go! You are getting it. Your fence idea is perfect.

Last spring GM and I picked out a piece of pasture and had it plowed (I don't have a plow so we had to hire that done) and then proceeded to build a 2500 sq.ft. garden. It took us the better part of a month, it is very well done with t-posts every 4 feet and we put up the fence like we never wanted to deal with it again. It kept us from uncomfortable LB's while we worked on it and moved us forward just a bit. It is a great garden. Triggers me a bit since he fed his AP out of the small garden I did alone previously but it is a challenge now for me to learn to deal with them, there are so many. It won't hurt in the long run.

For valentines day a number of years ago GM gave me a chain saw and I gave him a ring. It is pretty funny when I think back on it because I am terrified of that stupid saw (I have used it though) and he lost the ring along with the wedding band that he refused to wear. Oh well, such was the state of our marriage then.

I agree with you on the tools smile Have fun building and planting. Enjoy each other.

DWG and GM's version of Gift of the Magi.
DWG: "Hun I sold my lumber collection to buy you a ring".
GM: "I accidentally cut off my finger with this chain saw I got you."
DWG/GM: "ahhhhh romantic."

The reply I have in mind probably would not go over too well here but just think of all the things I might have liked for him to remove with a chain saw back then. His finger was not one of them. smile Now I am quite happy he did not. blush

Gutter mind warning!

Well now you can always buy a ring for down there too. blush

It took me 26 years to get him to wear a wedding ring. I don't think I would live long enough for him to do that!
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The fog is rolling out!!! clap


I don�t have a problem with ignorance. When I came here I was ignorant. I read back through my thread and roll my eyes and cringe a bit, but I don�t beat myself up too badly because I didn�t know, and what you don�t know, you don�t know.

I do have a problem with a willful refusal to learn, especially when that refusal is driven by arrogance. And I think people who go to an expert to help solve their problem and then ignore the advice given are idiots.

I�ve given solid legal advise to people who respond with 652 reasons why what I am telling them to do is either wrong or impossible because I just don�t understand their situation is special and, therefore, the law shouldn�t apply to them. And I think �fine, you came to me with your problem, I�m telling you how to solve it, you don�t want to follow my advice, OK by me. It�s not my problem, it�s yours, and I�m not the one who is going to suffer the consequences of not following my advice � you are. So go ahead and do what you had already decided to do before you came to me � no skin off my nose.�

So there you go. I have to admit I read some of the other WW threads and feel like chiming in with the above, but not to worry, I won�t.

You guys are incredibly patient -- my willful refusal to learn driven by arrogance is so, shall we say, unattractive.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 04:48 PM
Saddest,

You said
Quote
my willful refusal to learn driven by arrogance is so, shall we say, unattractive.


You have just provided another way of describing the "FOG". What you must know is that you are/were normal for where you were in all of this. That is why people were on you at the first. And that is why they are still with you. It takes awhile to clear the "fog".

I do believe that your statement is absolutely true of virtually all WS' that come here either still in their affair, or in the "fog" of withdrawal.


You're coming along just fine.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I�ve given solid legal advise to people who respond with 652 reasons why what I am telling them to do is either wrong or impossible because I just don�t understand their situation is special and, therefore, the law shouldn�t apply to them. And I think �fine, you came to me with your problem, I�m telling you how to solve it, you don�t want to follow my advice, OK by me. It�s not my problem, it�s yours, and I�m not the one who is going to suffer the consequences of not following my advice � you are. So go ahead and do what you had already decided to do before you came to me � no skin off my nose.�
Aren't you glad people here are more patient?
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/23/10 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by suamico
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I�ve given solid legal advise to people who respond with 652 reasons why what I am telling them to do is either wrong or impossible because I just don�t understand their situation is special and, therefore, the law shouldn�t apply to them. And I think �fine, you came to me with your problem, I�m telling you how to solve it, you don�t want to follow my advice, OK by me. It�s not my problem, it�s yours, and I�m not the one who is going to suffer the consequences of not following my advice � you are. So go ahead and do what you had already decided to do before you came to me � no skin off my nose.�
Aren't you glad people here are more patient?

But she IS making a good point. We all own our decisions. We can't try to take ownership of others' decisions - it's enabling them and detrimental to our own wellbeing. Whether someone is willfully remaining ignorant, actively justifying their refusal of proven advice, or whathaveyou, the point is the same - you make your own honest effort to do what you can, but at the end of the day, their choices lie with them.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 12:08 AM
ALL that any of us ever hope for the other posters on here is that they "get" the MB concepts and apply them to their lives. If they are successful in recovering the marriage they came here to save, we are even MORE grateful. What do we have to lose? Nothing. BUT what we have to gain is knowing that we may have helped someone have a better life and in return helped make marriages better all over the world. THAT'S why I do it at least. laugh

Glad to see that the fog is rolling out. Now, have you been reading some more? Do you have any more questions? Is there some way we can help you? Don't go quiet on us. laugh
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 01:09 AM
Horrid day, but I did NOT send the charming clever email to OM mentally drafted while mopping the floors worrying about the constant fighting between my H and my 15 year old son. Instead, I took a break and sat down and read BS threads for two hours.

I am formulating a big question, but I haven't read everything I can find on the subject first so won't post it yet.

The purpose of the post is to ask someone to go to lgrip's "Can I save this Marriage Alone" thread and tell him to try not to be alarmed by his WW's erratic moods IF you experts agree? Possibly she had a trigger moment for OM, or possibly her H said or did something that made her think "why am I here again?" or possibly she had a wave of guilt or possibly her jeans she bought when she lost all the weight from the stress of the A were a little tight this morning or possibly she really wants to go out to dinner with her H tonight but is scared to ask. The possibilities are limitless and not all bad.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 01:16 AM
And yes, I am enormously grateful for ALL of your patience. I would have thrown me out of my office -- then again, I learned pretty quick that those who didn't want to take my advice had no intention of paying for it.

Even more remarkable that all this wisdom is there for the taking. It's a remarkable group of people, and, one way or another, I will be one of you one day. I swing a mean 2x4 -- don't -- seriously DON'T mess with Texas women.

Scotland, if you figure out how to post in pink, let me know -- I've read some of your thread. Dear God woman -- you are made of steel aren't you?
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 02:49 AM
You CAN post in pink. It just isn't so pretty to look at. AND I DON'T LIKE PINK.

I am most certainly NOT made of steel. grin

I am just a person who knows what I want and when I found this place, it was a saviour for me. I had been going through such ups and downs for a couple of years and until I found this place I felt lost. Funny thing is, almost 9 months after finding this place, I can't think the old way. MB seems like second nature. I still have much to learn but I am an MB sponge.

As far as what gets written to igrip, it is hard to say what you have said because there are so many different things it COULD be. That's why we tell BSs to look at actions and not words.

Glad to see that you are aware that you needed help and you are accepting it. THAT takes an even STRONGER person. You made that leap of faith and either way, this WILL turn out for the better.

Do you have a new list of EPs? Do you have any questions we could help answer for you? How are you doing in YOUR sitch? This is YOUR thread, let's get some of you kinks worked out. Have you read any of the threads on recovering? Sometimes, when I first entered Plan B, I felt like there was not enough movement on my thread. I didn't know where else to go. I looked to the recovering people's thread for hope. Maybe you could find the threads for some of the recovering/recovered people and see what they were advised.

I don't know how to help in the recovery part yet or how to help you get the thoughts of OM out of your head. I do know that I have seen where vets have advised WSs to replace the thoughts of OM with their DH. I hope you make it. laugh

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 05:05 AM
[quote=Scotland}
As far as what gets written to igrip, it is hard to say what you have said because there are so many different things it COULD be. That's why we tell BSs to look at actions and not words.
[/quote]

At least now I know that I don't know, so I didn't leap in and make things worse.


Horrid horrid horrid day.

From now on, when I say OM what I really mean is divorce. OM is not the sort of person I would even consider dating if I were single. When you are married, the world of possible AP�s is populated with people who think it is OK to screw around with a married person. This is, despite the current evidence to the contrary, not my value system.

I think I am in the wrong place here. I am certainly a WS, but at bottom I am a WAW. My pdoc felt/feels I haven�t done everything possible to save my M, and has been sending me back into the ring week after week for a year with different strategies to the point where I told him his insistence was starting to feel hostile to me.

I had an A right when I was about to file. I don�t know what that means. Maybe I�m gone from the M for good, or maybe it was my last ditch effort to get H�s attention. I do know that I wanted to get caught. I don�t know what that means either.

My H has this tone of voice that obviates the necessity of him ending the sentence with �you idiot.� I tried to help him set up a bed this morning and when he was telling me the importance of holding the headboard just so, I broke out in a cold sweat, literally, and told him that the bed was going to have to wait as continuing to help was bad for our M.

H enlists my S15 to help who has the exact same reaction, except he is 15 and he hasn�t read the MB site. S15 left the house on foot and returned 6 hours later. I was jealous.

H is TRYING SO HARD not to use that tone, and maybe he isn�t using it, but S15 and I and D21 are so reactive.

My mother had heart surgery all day. I received text messages on her progress which is fine. I can�t bring myself to call her. I hate her.

H and I had a late afternoon conversation about him and S15 and I told him (PORA) that the vision I had of life with him and S15 in the fall � my S19 who is a delight is going to college � with me cut off from all of my friends and family because of my A is not appealing, to put it mildly. H is so completely clueless about the impact of his disrespectful treatment of me and the kids -- to him that is so last week -- that I was actually speechless. Imagine that.

S19 wants us divorce. He is going to college and very protective of his brother S15 and doesn�t want to leave him in the toxic house that S19 lived in without S19�s support. S19 is about the coolest kid ever � I sent him a happy 4th of July text, and he replied �I hope you and father will take full advantage of all of the independence this great country has to offer.� On the one hand, S19 shouldn�t get an opinion about my M, but on the other hand S19 has earned the right to have an opinion.

I think maybe I should give up on the M. My S15 is starting high school at a new school with is academically very challenging and I worry that I�m not doing the right thing working on my M rather than ensuring that he has a tranquil home. New school, freshman, way more academic work. I�m scared I�m not prioritizing right.

So here is what has gone through my head all day:

�I can�t save my M alone.�

�Of course you can � alone is nothing new.�

�No, really, I can�t. He has to help. He has to get on board with the MB thing. Or some plan. He�s going to have to help.�

�Have you not LISTENED you stupid b****. You had an AFFAIR. You HAVE to do this on your own. You can�t expect ANYTHING from him.�

�I can�t do this on my own.�

�You have never once backed down from any challenge, ever. You aren�t thinking hard enough, clearly enough or out of the box enough. If you try hard enough, you can fix this.�

�I can�t do this on my own. And it isn�t just about me. It�s about my child too.�

�YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXPECT ONE THING FROM HIM.�

�I can�t do this on my own.�

My H is against coaching from Steve so I�m not pursuing it.

I think I am just done. I don�t see a path out. Scary.

I wish I could talk to a friend. Thank the ever-loving Lord for you all.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 05:17 AM
And H said this afternoon that he gets scared when I argue with my D21 that she and I will end up just like me and my mother where my D21 wants nothing to do with me, so he gets locked out of her life too.

Translation: I may be as horrible of a mother as my mother is.

PORA does lead to casualties. I can't absorb the horribleness of that. It's too much.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
And H said this afternoon that he gets scared when I argue with my D21 that she and I will end up just like me and my mother where my D21 wants nothing to do with me, so he gets locked out of her life too.

Translation: I may be as horrible of a mother as my mother is.

PORA does lead to casualties. I can't absorb the horribleness of that. It's too much.

Dear Saddestwife,

First, I'm tired and can't recall what PORA means.

You are in a mess.

If you had come to this forum before you had an affair and complained about your marriage you would have received very different advice.

Maybe. Or Maybe not.

My own now XH told my best friend---with in weeks of D-day---that he was sorry he had given me ammunition. Not that he was sorry he has had an affair....but that he had given me an easy out. Huh? Seriously? That was his regret?

So I get all confused when I listen to you....I'm not skilled enough in MB ways to speak intelligently...although I haven't been told to stay off threads..:) But some of the things you say about your WH stiffen my spine....then again you did have an affair and you could be fogged out still---in fact probably are still a bit fogged.

How does one separate the affair from the conditions that led to the affair? Vets will tell you---your affair is on YOU. 100%. So that is one issue. The other issue is a marriage that was and is not what you want. One that makes you have crazy conversations in your head about your options. I had those same conversations many many times. He made the choice easy for me. He gave me a get out of jail free card. IF however, *I* had been the one to have the affair....and I must tell you I was totally vulnerable to that....I would have been tortured 100 times over what I am tortured now. I would have lost the moral high ground. That sucks.

So you lost the moral high ground. That doesn't mean you don't matter.

Stay here and listen and learn. You are valuable. Even with your sins, and weaknesses, and FOO issues...YOU are valuable.
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 12:09 PM
SW,

Originally Posted by saddestwife
Horrid horrid horrid day.

This is to be expected. Infidelity is one of the hardest things to overcome. You will quite often hear it describe as a roller coaster here. The ups and downs can become maddening at times, but if you put them in the context of what they are and why they happen, they become easier to handle.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
From now on, when I say OM what I really mean is divorce. OM is not the sort of person I would even consider dating if I were single. When you are married, the world of possible AP�s is populated with people who think it is OK to screw around with a married person. This is, despite the current evidence to the contrary, not my value system.
It's a step forward that you recognize this and not at all uncommon. It is what is referred to here as "affairing down." Like you said, the choices are limited in possible AP because that means a certain lack of ethics/character are needed to mess around with a M person in the first place. Point in case would be the OM in my situation. He was/is a total lowlife. Six months after basically dumping my DW he was already involved in another A over which he abandoned his BW and SS. Six months after that he was sentenced to 3-5 years for robbing a drugstore with a toy gun demanding pills and cash(great guy huh?).

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I think I am in the wrong place here. I am certainly a WS, but at bottom I am a WAW. My pdoc felt/feels I haven�t done everything possible to save my M, and has been sending me back into the ring week after week for a year with different strategies to the point where I told him his insistence was starting to feel hostile to me.

I had an A right when I was about to file. I don�t know what that means. Maybe I�m gone from the M for good, or maybe it was my last ditch effort to get H�s attention. I do know that I wanted to get caught. I don�t know what that means either.
I don't buy the WAW thing SW and I'll tell you why. I believe that you were at your wits end in dealing with the M, but you could have just as easily filed for D instead of having an A. Both would have the same affect you hoped to gain from you BH which was an effort on his part to repair the M. You choose an A because your aren't ready to give up yet where as filing for D is giving up.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H has this tone of voice that obviates the necessity of him ending the sentence with �you idiot.� I tried to help him set up a bed this morning and when he was telling me the importance of holding the headboard just so, I broke out in a cold sweat, literally, and told him that the bed was going to have to wait as continuing to help was bad for our M.

H enlists my S15 to help who has the exact same reaction, except he is 15 and he hasn�t read the MB site. S15 left the house on foot and returned 6 hours later. I was jealous.

H is TRYING SO HARD not to use that tone, and maybe he isn�t using it, but S15 and I and D21 are so reactive.
You have a long history of issues to overcome SW. It's not going to happen overnight and you are going to have to be the one to take the lead for a while. Being reactionary is going to get you anywhere. Maybe the tone really wasn't about you or the way you were holding the headboard so much as it was at himself for taking so long to put the stupid headboard on. I think you handled the situation pretty well by removing yourself from losing further units in your love bank. Maybe you should have added that his tone was hurting you and that was why it was bad for M.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
My mother had heart surgery all day. I received text messages on her progress which is fine. I can�t bring myself to call her. I hate her.

Sorry about you mom and how you feel about your relationship with her.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
H and I had a late afternoon conversation about him and S15 and I told him (PORA) that the vision I had of life with him and S15 in the fall � my S19 who is a delight is going to college � with me cut off from all of my friends and family because of my A is not appealing, to put it mildly. H is so completely clueless about the impact of his disrespectful treatment of me and the kids -- to him that is so last week -- that I was actually speechless. Imagine that.
You speechless.....I'm shocked...totally SHOCKED I tell you!

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I�m scared I�m not prioritizing right.

WRONG!!! You are absolutely without a doubt prioritizing right. The best possible thing for your children is for their parents to remain together as a family. You can set the example and show them how they take responsibility for their mistakes in life.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
�I can�t save my M alone.�

�Of course you can � alone is nothing new.�

�No, really, I can�t. He has to help. He has to get on board with the MB thing. Or some plan. He�s going to have to help.�

�Have you not LISTENED you stupid b****. You had an AFFAIR. You HAVE to do this on your own. You can�t expect ANYTHING from him.�

�I can�t do this on my own.�

�You have never once backed down from any challenge, ever. You aren�t thinking hard enough, clearly enough or out of the box enough. If you try hard enough, you can fix this.�

�I can�t do this on my own. And it isn�t just about me. It�s about my child too.�

�YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXPECT ONE THING FROM HIM.�

�I can�t do this on my own.�

The schizophrenic conversations you have with yourself can be a bear some times. I know full well what you are talking about here. I'm two 1/2 years from D-day and these are still an issue for me. My brain just doesn't stop. Tried AD's, mental blocks, shear anger over it and none of it has worked. Fortunately, I recognize that it's part of my OCD. Obsessive thinking has ALWAYS been a big problem for me and once the A came about my brain was off to the races. I've trained myself to ignore these conversations because some of the most damaging irrational conclusions come out of them.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
My H is against coaching from Steve so I�m not pursuing it.

I think I am just done. I don�t see a path out. Scary.

Don't give up SW. You just got started. You need to continue to learn the MB principles and implement them from your side of the fence REGARDLESS of what your BH says or does. You do it without expectation because you are choosing to change your life for the better from this point forward. Get HSHN and LB and read them both. Make them part of your everyday life and give you BH time. Maybe when he sees the changes in your attitude and the commitment you've made he will get on board too. You can do this SW......

Want2Stay
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 12:55 PM
SW, I don't have much time, gotta jet off to work, but I wanted to say a couple of things to you first. I too don't believe that you are a WAW. WHY? Because you are HERE. You keep coming back to a site called Marriage Builders and you keep learning and trying. You are NOT going to change overnight. When/if your H decides to get "on board" he won't change overnight either.

You can still do the phone coaching by yourself. I have read a lot of people's threads of people who have made that call and I have NEVER seen anyone regret it. Money well spent. Steve can help YOU devise a plan.

The little "discussion" you had in your head reminded me of the Giver and the Taker. We all have BOTH in us and you see how yours were battling? Your Taker is saying, "Get outta this marriage NOW.' Your Giver is saying, "But you have done WRONG. You have no right to walk away." It's okay. You are dealing with EMOTIONS here and you have already stated time and time again that you aren't so great with this sort of stuff. Work through the process, don't go around it.

You are still going to be foggy for a while. Some people experience foggy moments for years. Your fog has just started to roll out so my advise is to keep working so it will keep clearing.

Was there issues in your marriage pre-A? Of COURSE. Your DH was responsible for 50% of that and you the other 50%. That means that BOTH of you have to fix who you were/are to make a better marriage.

I think you should really give Steve a call. He could really help you. Get that little extra push you need.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Scotland
I think you should really give Steve a call. He could really help you.
I agree with you...but I don't think she was ever serious about calling Steve from the start. The excuses ranged from having a phone phobia to refusing to work with someone who took notes to the scheduling office's email being in her spam.

SW, you have already been told that you don't need your H to be onboard to talk to Steve. I thought you acknowledged that and said you would be doing the call on your own??

So you are saying you are willing to go to Plan D without even trying one session with the Harleys? Really? I am wondering how serious were you about saving the M to begin with...

The two times I initiated coaching my H was not fully onboard. The last time I told him I would be calling because our M was in trouble and if he didn't want to be involved, I would have them split the session and save his half for later. Both times my LB$$ was seriously in the red due to H's lovebusters involving dishonesty and AOs and both times I figured if this doesn't work, then I will start looking at Plan B. But that way I would know at least I did everything possible first. In both instances, the coaching helped tremendously!!

I don't know how much more we can hammer the message home ----> it is going to take time and you need the Harleys.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 04:15 PM
SusieQ, I can certainly see why you say that -- as in most things on this board, while it may not be the whole truth, there is truth there. I've gotten past the phone thing, I'm hoping Steve will email me the notes he makes which will alleviate my anxiety on that point. But my H really doesn't want me to call -- "get carried away" with the MB stuff. If I were at home, I would absolutely sneak off and call anyway and to hell with honesty. In the overall scheme of things, I don't think that will ultimately register as a dishonest LB with my H. But there is no way I can do that where I am.

I meant PORH -- it was late and I was crying -- I knew that didn't look right.

Women are wives, daughters and mothers. I'm not doing a good job in any of those roles. I need something to feel good about. The isolation, loneliness and pervasive guilt across all those roles are taking their toll on me.

I think I need to table all this until I go home in a few weeks. Thanks for everything. And I mean that with all my heart. Even the 2X4's. Or especially the 2X4's.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 04:19 PM
SW, Want2Stay had it pegged. From our side of the fence this looks normal. It IS a rollercoaster. You have to be able to recognize that and roll with it. That was the hardest thing for GM to learn. Your H may say some terrible things to you as he works his way through this but he may turn around and be very sweet or at least sweeter the next. He is a mess, as are you but you at least know what his life has been. He will be putting it together for quite some time.

Hang with this. You are doing very well. The work load is on you until he heals somewhat. Remember, you have the workload now but he is not free. He has to learn to live with what has happened to him. When you get to move even ground, and that takes a while, you will both be responsible for the healing. You just have to make it until then by doing everything in your power to heal him even when you want to grab him and shake him. He has to learn to rethink his life and his future because it is all different now because of your A. He also will have to learn to suck it up a lot while you learn and not just bolt or scream when you make mistakes. It is no fun. Recovery is very very hard and you are not anywhere near that part yet. It is worth it if you want to love each other again.

Just a long winded way to add my voice to let you know his behavior right now is normal and you are doing very well.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/24/10 10:57 PM
Saddest,

You may be a walk away W, but you didn't need to be an adulteress. And here is where I sense something I would like you to consider.

I'm sensing you had the affair in hopes that your H would divorce you and YOU would not have to make that decision. I sense that you don't confront your H and haven't confronted your H about many things because you don't have the back bone to do so.

You are clearly an intelligent woman, but are you a woman of principles? You have violated your own principles with the affair. AND you have further violated your principles by allowing your H to treat your children and you in a way that was not respectful. Oddly, or it may seem so to you, this falls on you.

We have strongly suggested that you need to speak with your H and what you just posted about your S19 and 15 and their reluctance can be construed as somewhat normal. Boys and their fathers off clash at this age. However, you intimate that this is much more. If that is so you have a "teachable moment" at hand. Your H is willing to listen to you. Ask him to sit down and work with you on a plan that brings your S15 back into the fold so to speak. Make sure he knows how is son sees him.

I will tell you up front that I am old school. I don't believe that parents should be "friends" with their children. I believe parents should be training and educating their children and they have little say in this. Once they are adults and on their own, then yes, friends it is. Your H may feel similarly but have taken it too far. He needs the feed back to achieve what he wants to achieve. And that perhaps is how you should start the conversation.

"Dear, S15 is not doing well right now. I need to know what your goals for him are. I would like to know how you plan to encourage/motivate him to achieve those goals. I would definitly like to know if my goals for them are consistent with your goals for him. Finally, I think it would be most effective if we reached an understanding/plan for how to rear him from now on. I don't want YOU to be with him like I am with my mother."

Now here is where the policies of radical honesty and joint agreement come into play. YOur H doesn't have to know these policies but one of you do.

You may think you want out of this marriage but your actions suggest you don't. You may think he doesn't love or respect you, but his actions suggest he does. You handed him a get out of jail free card, and he tossed it.

Please think about this.

God Bless
JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Saddest, I sense that you don't confront your H and haven't confronted your H about many things because you don't have the back bone to do so.

You are clearly an intelligent woman, but are you a woman of principles? You have violated your own principles with the affair. AND you have further violated your principles by allowing your H to treat your children and you in a way that was not respectful. Oddly, or it may seem so to you, this falls on you.


JL, you are a man of great compassion, insight and wisdom, and I have been honored that you have posted on my thread, and have read some of what you have posted elsewhere.

Since you are old school, I am guessing you never threw a full glass of wine in your wife's face in front of other people when she took a position on politics you didn't agree with. I'm guessing you never said to her in front of a large group of people that all of her stories are boring and no one wants to hear what she has to say. I'm guessing you never blew up at her for getting so sick it looked like you might have to miss a golf game. I'm almost certain you didn't get mad at her when your child was born because she hadn't arranged for child care for the others at a time when her legs were still numb. It seems unlikely that you discussed the workings of your wife's body in front of your family in a way sure to cause her embarrassment. I would venture to say you don't have a mental file cabinet where you file away the intimate things your wife has told you about herself under the tab "Weapons".

No backbone? It takes a lot of strength to keep a smile on your face and pretend like all is well when you NEVER have the FAINTEST idea what you are about to do wrong next. It sucks the life out of you -- chronic, unrelenting anxiety, trying to always stay one step ahead, but of course you can't. My principle has been to work harder and harder and harder, to stay ahead of my H's ridicule, contempt and criticism so he wouldn't have a target. I thought if I could just be more perfect, ala Mary Poppins "practically perfect in every way", I could make the M work. I thought/think it is all my fault that I couldn't ever be perfect enough that he would find a way to be nice to me. Maybe you are right -- maybe it does fall on me to make H treat me and my kids with respect. If that's the case, I don't think I'm up to the challenge. I can't make someone else be nice.

I think he should be responsible for his own conduct and I should be responsible for mine. Maybe that isn't the way it works. All I know is that I can't try to be "practically perfect in every way" anymore. I have to be me now -- imperfect me.

Using MB language, the reason my H didn't toss me to the curb over the A is that his LB was full. His only unmet EN according to him is his EN that his wife not have an A.

We did POJA the S15 and agreed H would take him out to do something fun to talk about their relationship. I told S15 that I understood his reactivity to his dad's tone but that (1) his dad is trying to moderate that and we need to work on being less reactive, and (2) he needs to tell dad in a calm way when he feels he is being treated with disrespect and take a breath and talk about it rather than getting mad and leaving.

I have without a doubt the greatest kids on the planet and anyone who argues with me on that is just wrong. My relationships with them are honest and solid, i.e. we fight but we work through it, always. I am a good mother.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:00 AM
I imagine that your husband never brought you your older child, to the HOSPITAL room when you were recovering from the birth of your younger child. I can imagine that your H didn't, well.....you know what? I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you about whose H was worse because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean a whole hill of beans now. YOU did wrong too, and so did I. Thing is, I CHOSE to NOT have an affair. You didn't make that same choice. When you said your vows, did you mean them? I am betting that you did. You have become a FREELOADER/RENTER in your marriage where you most likely used to be a buyer. You are posting to a forum FULL of BS and FWW who had less than perfect marriages pre-A. ONLY the WSs have chosen to have an affair.

Your DH didn't have an affair most likely because of 2 reasons, he either hasn't had the opportunity yet, OR he has stronger boundaries than you did. THAT'S it in a nutshell. It was NOT because you were a perfect wife that did everything right. Right now he is in hysterical bonding mode. He realizes how close he was to losing you and he is is looking at you differently. I DID IT TOO.

If I didn't know better, I would say that there has been contact. It could just be withdrawal. Fog coming in and out for sure on this thread which is to be expected. You still have a long way to go and time is your friend now.

I saw your post where you said you were going away for a while. I didn't make any mention of it then because I didn't see the point. Seriously, as I said before, what do WE have to lose? We will feel badly for you and your family, but we will just move on to helping the next person who posts. There are A LOT of people who need help. There is a lot of betrayal happening everyday. My only hope is that I can help ONE BS today to make their life a little better, even if that means I help them through their WS.

You know that this site is the best chance you have. There is some reason you keep returning. I am calling to that part of you. the decent part that knows that we will help you through this without being "yes men." THAT wouldn't help and you know it. Stop demonizing your DH and trying to justify your adultery. I am here to tell you that there was NO JUSTIFICATION. This is the MB way. You can search through all of the MB articles and posts and you won't find ONE where DrH says that there is EVER a justification for adultery. It would be like the rapist who blames the fact that the victim was wearing provocative clothes. We all know THAT isn't even close to an excuse.

Stop being so darn argumentative counselor. This isn't a courtroom. This is a safe place for you to learn and be guided through the most horrible thing YOU have ever perpetrated on another human being. Something you CAN get passed.

Cotton outta your ears and in your mouth. laugh
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:26 AM
Scotland, you are a dear and I so appreciate your input. I'm not trying to justify sh**. I have a great deal of respect for JL but when he tells me I have "allowed my H to treat me and the kids in a way that is not respectful" it flies all over me.

I'm willing to step up the plate and take responsibility for my part. But I am NOT responsible for the way he treats me. I'm not trying to justify anything. But I refuse to take responsibility for his bad behavior.

I get the focus of this forum -- WS' are vile and evil, occasionally close to sub-human, and any effort to dispel that idea is "fog".

Except we're not vile, evil or subhuman. We are people too.

SmilingWoman gets it because she knows what it is like to live in my M. She said I count too. I don't count here, and I don't think that is healthy for me.

You are a dear -- thank you. I wish I could know you in real life. You are quite something.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I get the focus of this forum -- WS' are vile and evil, occasionally close to sub-human, and any effort to dispel that idea is "fog".

Sad,

That is most definitely not the focus of this forum! Far from it!



Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I get the focus of this forum -- WS' are vile and evil, occasionally close to sub-human, and any effort to dispel that idea is "fog".

Except we're not vile, evil or subhuman. We are people too.

Here is what we call that in Texas: [Linked Image from i29.tinypic.com]

grin

Who is evil and vile other than those who engage in evil and vile behavior? It doesn't get any more vile than adultery, dear. We are judged by our behavior, not by the lies we tell ourselves. Anyone who denies the truth of the vileness of adultery is in a fog. And a very self serving one at that.

You might be able to sell that bullcrap to yourself, but you won't find any buyers around here. This is a no bullcrap zone. grin
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Scotland, you are a dear and I so appreciate your input. I'm not trying to justify sh**. I have a great deal of respect for JL but when he tells me I have "allowed my H to treat me and the kids in a way that is not respectful" it flies all over me.

I'm willing to step up the plate and take responsibility for my part. But I am NOT responsible for the way he treats me. I'm not trying to justify anything. But I refuse to take responsibility for his bad behavior.

I get the focus of this forum -- WS' are vile and evil, occasionally close to sub-human, and any effort to dispel that idea is "fog".

Except we're not vile, evil or subhuman. We are people too.

SmilingWoman gets it because she knows what it is like to live in my M. She said I count too. I don't count here, and I don't think that is healthy for me.

You are a dear -- thank you. I wish I could know you in real life. You are quite something.

Stop saying you don't count here, or that WS are sub-human. You know better by now that is not true, and you're tossing those out as lame excuses to not do some hard and painful work.

That work depends a lot on what you want. (After the fog clears - because, yes, it's still there. It takes a looooong time to clear. No insult, just par for the course.) JL's point is not that you're a terrible person deserving of any slight or insult from your BH. JL's point (and correct me if I'm wrong, JL) is that we can condition others, we can change our behavior so that they change theirs, we can create an environment where their reactions to us are better all-around. That's the idea.

Not much more right now, just want to nip the "WS's are hated, evil creatures and people are too harsh and they'll never understand and how will they ever help me anyway so why bother" line of thinking in the bud. grin

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I have a great deal of respect for JL but when he tells me I have "allowed my H to treat me and the kids in a way that is not respectful" it flies all over me.

It should fly all over you and stick too!

You can't tell me your H put a gun to your head and made you suck it up and take it all these years. You allowed it by staying in it.


You missed JL's point by getting all defensive !

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 03:47 AM
Show me a person who does not ADMIT they were evil and vile when they commited adultery and I will show you a person who has not even BEGUN recovery. Recovery cannot even begin until a WS is HONEST.

All I see is a whole lotta denial...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 04:01 AM
Lets look at the dictionary definitions of vile and evil and see if an adulterer fits:


Main Entry: vile
Pronunciation: \&#712;v&#299;(-&#601;)l\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): vil�er \&#712;v&#299;-l&#601;r\; vil�est \-l&#601;st\
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French vil, from Latin vilis
Date: 14th century
1 a : morally despicable or abhorrent <nothing is so vile as intellectual dishonesty> b : physically repulsive : foul <a vile slum>
2 : of little worth or account : common; also : mean
3 : tending to degrade <vile employments>
4 : disgustingly or utterly bad : obnoxious, contemptible <vile weather> <had a vile temper>
here

Looks like a perfect fit to me!

Now lets look at the definition of evil:

e�vil&#8194; &#8194;/&#712;iv&#601;l/ Show Spelled[ee-vuhl] Show IPA
�adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life. 2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

I am going to have to say that your dispute is with the English language, rather than Vibrissa because her definition of waywards is very accurate according to these dictionary definitions.

Shall we dispute these word definitions to Websters Dictionary and ask them to change them up a bit? smile

Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 04:13 AM
SadW, on your tally sheet, how many of the acts that your H committed against you are erased because of your adultery? Who has the bigger balance of crimes against their spouse when your adultery is added to the list. How many times did you lie to your DH? How many thoughts did you have against your DH during your affair?

All of the evils that I have committed against my WH most certainly got erased by his adultery. I didn't WIN. We ALL lost. BUT, I have no tally on my WH. He has committed one HUGE assault on my and our marriage and I am still willing to create a marriage that is fulfilling for BOTH of us, IF my WH takes me up on my offer.

You have that chance. Why aren't you taking that chance? Why are you being so resistant? What are you afraid you will find out about yourself when you look deeper? What are you avoiding?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 05:17 AM
Saddest,


Originally Posted by saddestwife
[Since you are old school, I am guessing you never threw a full glass of wine in your wife's face in front of other people when she took a position on politics you didn't agree with. I'm guessing you never said to her in front of a large group of people that all of her stories are boring and no one wants to hear what she has to say. I'm guessing you never blew up at her for getting so sick it looked like you might have to miss a golf game. I'm almost certain you didn't get mad at her when your child was born because she hadn't arranged for child care for the others at a time when her legs were still numb. It seems unlikely that you discussed the workings of your wife's body in front of your family in a way sure to cause her embarrassment. I would venture to say you don't have a mental file cabinet where you file away the intimate things your wife has told you about herself under the tab "Weapons". .



Quote
No backbone? It takes a lot of strength to keep a smile on your face and pretend like all is well when you NEVER have the FAINTEST idea what you are about to do wrong next. It sucks the life out of you -- chronic, unrelenting anxiety, trying to always stay one step ahead, but of course you can't. My principle has been to work harder and harder and harder, to stay ahead of my H's ridicule, contempt and criticism so he wouldn't have a target. I thought if I could just be more perfect, ala Mary Poppins "practically perfect in every way", I could make the M work. I thought/think it is all my fault that I couldn't ever be perfect enough that he would find a way to be nice to me. Maybe you are right -- maybe it does fall on me to make H treat me and my kids with respect. If that's the case, I don't think I'm up to the challenge. I can't make someone else be nice.


You are clearly an intelligent woman, but are you a woman of principles? You have violated your own principles with the affair. AND you have further violated your principles by allowing your H to treat your children and you in a way that was not respectful. Oddly, or it may seem so to you, this falls on you
You are absolutely right, I have never done anything like that to my W. My question to you is why you allowed such things to happen? And here is my point about backbone. You are a bright woman, you are very articulate, and you argue here with a passion even if misguided some times. YET...you allowed this to happen. WHY?


Quote
I think he should be responsible for his own conduct and I should be responsible for mine. Maybe that isn't the way it works. All I know is that I can't try to be "practically perfect in every way" anymore. I have to be me now -- imperfect me.

Saddest, you are missing something. You ARE responsible for how you respond to people and how they treat you. YOU ARE responsible for your boundaries and protecting them. This isn't about him being nice, or him being terrible. It is about how you respond and enforce your boundaries. You are a smart woman, and you clearly have no trouble protecting yourself when you feel we are on your case. WHY?

Quote
We did POJA the S15 and agreed H would take him out to do something fun to talk about their relationship. I told S15 that I understood his reactivity to his dad's tone but that (1) his dad is trying to moderate that and we need to work on being less reactive, and (2) he needs to tell dad in a calm way when he feels he is being treated with disrespect and take a breath and talk about it rather than getting mad and leaving.


You see your son needs to learn some important things about life and people. You have not taught him well by your failure to protect your boundaries, and your H has not taught him well by his behavior toward S15, the other children, and YOU.

You and your H need to decide what sort of MAN you want your son to be and start training that poor boy. Right now neither of you are much of a role model, BUT...you two could be.

Quote
I have without a doubt the greatest kids on the planet and anyone who argues with me on that is just wrong. My relationships with them are honest and solid, i.e. we fight but we work through it, always. I am a good mother.
Well, we just might have to quibble a bit about that. smile My three are pretty special and admittedly I am a bit partial toward them.

JL
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 06:05 AM
SadW, I have a question for you that you MAY be willing to answer. Why did you post that first time?
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 06:29 AM
Sad - why do you so desperately want to minimize what you did?

I know a man who was once my supervisor. Generally a good man and had done a lot of good things in his life, before and after a life-changing pivotal event that caused his children to have to grow up without a mommy or daddy in their lives. If he could take that 18 month period out of his life, that took him on a slippery slope of ego, adultery, abuse, and murder - his life before and since could be summed up the same way as you do.

Gee Sad - if you could just take those months and encapsulate them so that they don't infect the rest of your legacy, you'd be just peachy, right?

The problem is that those months are not encapsulated. You made a choice, and then another and then another, not to determine what was the best and wisest choice, but rather, you decided you were entitled to some thrills and comforts because you had endured so much at home...

Same slope my supervisor stepped onto. Where you have the comfort of your own bed, your own clothes, your own blankets and pillows to comfort you, and the possibility of either recovering your marriage or ending it - you have those choices. My former coworker, on the other hand, does not have those choices. None of them.

Think long and hard about excusing your dalliance on that very same slippery slope, just because you didn't slide as far as he did. You murdered your own soul as well as your husband's, and another man and all of the people who love and care about you all.

The body count is still rising as you make comparisons and plea for degrees of evil.

Puleeeeeze stop this. You embarrass and shame yourself! Someday you will cringe to read these words when you finally get the magnitude of your terribly wayward attitude here.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 01:50 PM
Saddest,

To pivot a bit off one of Scotland's comments, and to repeat something I've said to you earlier,

You want to recover your marriage, you're going to need to put down the clipboard, put down the spreadsheet, get rid of the Table of Wrongs. Drop the pencil. Quit keeping score.

Your H may not be willing to do this right way. Eventually, for you to have a fulfilling marriage, you will need him to do so. But for NOW, you must make the first step.

Yep, unilateral disarmament. That's the humility of which you were advised on your first day here. The viewpoint of "No matter what he's done to me in the past, what I've done is plenty bad enough to warrant my full attention to fixing." Persistently & patiently, even though there's not a guaranteed outcome as far as his reciprocating is concerned. That's the "gratuitous act of trust" which you need to commit, about which I posted to you earlier.

You say you're not a religious person, but you remind me of the story of Christ walking on water. More specifically, you remind me of Peter in that story. You have your shining moments, like when you're planning how you're going to build your "commitment fence", or when you're ordering your cammo undies, and you've got your eye on the FUTURE you want, and you're READY to commit acts of trust; but then you get frightened & distracted by the past, and you start to sink again. In that story, which Peter is stronger? Which one accomplishes more remarkable things?
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 05:01 PM
SW,

Women are wives, daughters and mothers. I'm not doing a good job in any of those roles. I need something to feel good about. The isolation, loneliness and pervasive guilt across all those roles are taking their toll on me.

When I found MB about two years ago this is exactly how my wife felt, she thought she was a failure in every category. The only approval she was getting was from people outside the family and an 85 year old guy who fell for her.

Even my wife who never admits to anything thinks she might have been involved with someone had our relationship gone on the same way for another year.

I'm not sure how you can get your husband to have empathy for you, it takes a moment of illumination for that to happen. He may be in the same place I was, where I used to think a new car or doing work around the house or making money were credits I could use to erase disrespect.

Keep posting I like your insights and let the 2x4's splinter as they may.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 06:40 PM
�Adultery is evil and vile so the folks who commit said acts are evil by defintion (sic)�.

The same could be said about Hitler. He was not evil by definition and did alot (sic) of good things. He may have done something evil but that doesn't define him any more than all the very good things he did.

He was a human being who made a bad mistake.�

(MelodyLane to me on the New Rants thread.)

A lauded poster on this site views my adultery as somehow comparable to Hitler�s systematic murder of 6 million people.

A lauded poster states that I am �by definition� evil.

And no one calls her on it. Which means that you all agree, or don�t disagree strongly enough to say anything.

I am eternally and sincerely grateful to those who helped me here.

Every human being is entitled to a baseline level of courtesy. Even WS�s.

Being called �by definition evil� falls way, way below that line.

Being compared to Hitler falls way, way, way below that line.

I am out, although I will be bumping this thread from time to time so that any WS who cares to read it will understand that they are by definition evil here, indeed in some way comparable to Hitler.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 06:59 PM
Get over yourself.

A person is defined by their actions. Hitler, you, Mother Theresa. Everyone is defined by their actions. An active wayward (which I was ranting about, btw) is evil and vile, because their actions are evil and vile.

You weren't COMPARED to Hitler. You were being held to the same standard he is when determining whether a person is good or not: their actions. Hyperbole. It's a literary tactic to make a point. Apparently that point struck something inside of you.

I find it interesting that you were so offended by my post. It wasn't about you, it was about ACTIVE waywards - yet why did it strike such a nerve with you?

Now will you always be bad - no, when you stop committing horrible acts, when you humble yourself and repent and do works that are good - then you are a good person.

Some of the BEST people on this site were once wayward. And I doubt you will find a single one of them who will defend themselves as good people WHILE they were actively committing some of the worst acts one person can commit against another.

But if throwing a little hissy fit makes you feel better- if blaming your husband makes you feel better - by all means, go ahead. It isn't MY family your arrogance and self-pity is destroying.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
A lauded poster on this site views my adultery as somehow comparable to Hitler�s systematic murder of 6 million people.

A lauded poster states that I am �by definition� evil.
No she doesn't, no she didn't and you know that. So will anyone who goes to the thread and reads the exchanges.

MelodyLane did not compare your adultery to Hitler's acts. She compared your saying that your act did not define you with saying that Hitler's acts do not define him.

She meant your adultery at the time of your adultery, and for as long as you seek to justify or rationalise it. She does not mean that you are thus defined forever. When you define your adultery as evil and through your acts, never commit that evil again, you will no longer be evil.

She used your own logic about the good things you did and applied to it Hitler, who also did some good things, to show you how absurd that logic is.

Please stop this. People here are trying to help you recover, but you keep saying things that sound like more rationalisation and self-pity.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
�Adultery is evil and vile so the folks who commit said acts are evil by defintion (sic)�.

The same could be said about Hitler. He was not evil by definition and did alot (sic) of good things. He may have done something evil but that doesn't define him any more than all the very good things he did.

He was a human being who made a bad mistake.�

(MelodyLane to me on the New Rants thread.)

A lauded poster on this site views my adultery as somehow comparable to Hitler�s systematic murder of 6 million people.

SW, yet you didn't answer my question. I am calling *YOU* on it and you have YET to explain why it is ok to judge Hitler by his behavior but not you.

Pitching a hissy fit is not an answer; IT IS A DISTRACTION. And I don't blame you for running because you and I both know you can't answer the question. If you did you would be forced to ADMIT that it makes no sense to not hold you to the same standard to which you hold others. You are running from the truth.

I will keep up until you answer my question. You will not distract me with your FIT.

Explain to me WHY we should not judge you by your behavior but we should judge Hitler?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 07:20 PM
SW, it is obvious that you want a special exemption for yourself but feel free to judge everyone else by their behavior. Just as you judged me for my behavior, you judged these folks for their behavior in another one of your posts:

Originally Posted by saddestwife
-- infants shaken to death, toddlers whose feet have been held in boiling water for wetting the bed, 11 year old girls raped by their fathers, brothers, stepfathers, or all of the above and giving birth, young women duped into sexual traffic, a 9 year old boy with 2 unset fractures of his arms and cigaret burns on his back for crying about the pain, a 4 year old girl raped vaginally and anally with a Lego penis that her rapist helped her construct,

"They did an evil, vile thing. That doesn't define them. They also do good things. Good caring people sometimes make horrible evil decisions but that doesn't make them horrible evil people." <---- your defense of wayward adulterers

Its obvious that you have nothing against judging others for their behavior but hypocritically DEMAND a different standard for yourself.

We have a special name for that here in Texas! ---> [Linked Image from i29.tinypic.com]
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
�Adultery is evil and vile so the folks who commit said acts are evil by defintion (sic)�.

The same could be said about Hitler. He was not evil by definition and did alot (sic) of good things. He may have done something evil but that doesn't define him any more than all the very good things he did.

He was a human being who made a bad mistake.�

(MelodyLane to me on the New Rants thread.)

A lauded poster on this site views my adultery as somehow comparable to Hitler�s systematic murder of 6 million people.

A lauded poster states that I am �by definition� evil.

And no one calls her on it. Which means that you all agree, or don�t disagree strongly enough to say anything.

Wayard translation: Someone held up the mirror and made me take a deep look at how my ACTIONS were in fact vile and evil.

dramaqueen

I warned you that looking into the mirror was going to be very hard. No one here has called you EVIL or VILE and you know it. This is just the latest attempt by you to defend the indefensible. Defending is what you do though isn't it? They described your ACTIONS as evil and vile when you were an active adulterous which is very different. Yet somehow you've made it all about you. Typical wayward mindset....you need to regroup SW. Quit trying to defend your A and get humble.

Let me ask you this SW. If anyone truly believed YOU were evil and vile, why on earth would they be wasting their free time trying to help you overcome the evil and vile ACTS you committed???

It makes absolutely no sense and you know it...

Want2Stay
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 08:39 PM
You have been trying to paint yourself as the victim from the moment you started posting here so why am I not surprised you are trying to do it with the boards as well?

It's nice to play the victim because then you don't actually have to be responsible for your actions and you're not responsible when things don't turn out the way you like.

This hasn't been working in your M and it isn't going to work here either.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 09:06 PM
SW, what's happened here? It looked like things were improving, no? How did it all get to this point?

Please, sit down and just think for a while. You can only control you - that includes your reactions here. Quiet your mind, let go of any feelings of being insulted, any vendettas, and, please, evaluate what is being said here with an open heart and mind. Be honest with yourself, and come back here with any arguments or questions.

Remember, the goal is a better M and a better you - you CAN do this!
Posted By: SDCW_man Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 10:46 PM
From the "New Rants" thread:

Originally Posted by SDCW_man
OK...let's all calm down here and drop the hyperbole on both sides.

SW, no, you are not a child-molestor or a mass-murdering, war-mongering, power-hungry dictator a la Hitler or Stalin or Mao (pick your poison there ladies). You didn't kill anyone and you (hopefully) recognize your adultery was WRONG & EVIL. We all have sinned and we all can be redeemed if we choose to confess, repent, and make amends for our misdeeds.

But...let's be clear. Your adultery was more than simply "a bad mistake" too. The fact that you otherwise "do good things" in your life does not in any way mitigate against the very vile thing you did to your BH & family. [All of those here who occasionally "do good things", raise your hand...everyone's hand goes up!]

There is no point in getting into the "good person/bad person" argument. How about this--do you want to be a MUCH BETTER person than you were during your affair? I would hope the answer is a resounding "yes". If so, then drop all the touchiness, excuses, and defensiveness about your culpability in the adultery. Such activities only reinforce to others that which you are seeking redemption from. Replace it with HONESTY, HUMILITY, & REPENTANCE. Selflessly RESTORE those you have wronged. Live a life of honor and respect from here forward and you will recover your honor and respect.

We can learn from the past even though we cannot change it. How we are regarded by others in the future depends upon how we act in the present. Best wishes...

SaddestWife,

When I switched over to this thread this afternoon and read your latest post (which chronologically FOLLOWED the above), I became once again disheartened. It seems most every time I post constructive/non-condemnational comments like the above to a wayward-spouse, I end up disappointed with the non-introspective and bristled reactions that ensue. It has happened with at least a dozen wayward individuals (screen names withheld) in my limited involvement here, so I am sure that more tenured MB-participants here have seen it far more often than I have. It really makes me want to not waste my time trying to reach the unreachable�I stick mostly to comforting & advising BSs as a result.

Furthermore, it frankly seems that the WHs who come here are generally more receptive to �a mirror being held to the face� than the WWs are. One would think that women�who often are quick to rank themselves as the more sensitive, thoughtful, & empathetic gender�would be MORE willing to engage in self-awareness and repentance towards others rather than LESS. But, that does not seem to be the case with adultery and its fallout�at least not here on MB. Even though I know better on an academic level, I am still baffled and stunned at times how it is that so many sensible, intelligent, grounded women will cling insistently and untenably to the notions that their adultery is/was somehow �mitigated by the circumstances�, �not really my fault entirely�, or �shouldn�t be looked at judgmentally�.

The mentality of self-entitlement, scapegoating, defensiveness, and irresponsibility runs so strong�even AFTER �asking for help�. It all reminds me of how my WW behaved both pre- and post-divorce�and nausea results.

GloveOil�s post about �not keeping score� & �unilateral disarmament� as a recovering-wayward was so on-point and also so simple to understand. SW, please drop the self-pity-party�and read again. What is the problem here???
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 10:58 PM
SadW, you are blame shifting to the MAX.

I for one was confused as to why you thought that the post that started all of this was even directed at YOU personally. Then you say that MelodyLane compared you to Hitler when she did no such thing. She used Hitler to quash YOUR argument. You were losing it and you got mad and pulled out the poor poor me card. STOP IT. You are a grown woman with grown children and you are acting worse than a child.

Now, as I was saying about the tally sheet you have on your husband, you now have one on us to. FUNNY how the LB$ concept works in all facets of life, eh? You are now threatening us with repeated bouts of fogginess in the future if we do not stop treating you "harshly." You are going to be the SAVIOUR of so many future waywards. Well, good luck with that. I really believe that MB and DrH is the BEST way to save waywards and BSs from adultery but is you feel like you kow better, I am NOT going to get in your way. Have at it. et us know how it all turns out and how you have become a happier, stronger and better person by doing it YOUR way.

If this is the way that you act when you are backed up against a wall, you must be a good lawyer. Making people argue themselves into a corner and losing focus would bode well in your profession, how did it work for you in your personal life?

You really don't like answering questions though do you? Hmmmmmmm. You should look into that, or not, it's completely up to you. My anonymous life will continue on whether you choose to save your marriage or not. I WILL become a better person day to day and I WILL have a lot of these posters(MelodyLane included) and this forum, along with DrH to thank for it.

MelodyLane usually stops posting to someone who isn't getting it way before now. She must see something in you. Hmmmmm, I wonder what that is.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/25/10 11:24 PM
You are quickly earning a place on the "ignore" list for many a veteran here who had hoped you would be one of those waywards to experience personal if not marital recovery.

Why?

Because you crave validation for your wickedness as "not as bad as".

Why?

Because deep down you know the primary difference between your evil and another's is that you have a psychological license to perpetrate.

You followed me through my day today, stuck in a part of my mind that I wish you weren't there. As I sat and listened to the message, my mind wandered back to you and how you've described your husband. I pondered the intimacy of the destruction you caused in his life. For a time my mind wandered to other examples of evil you used, and Mel used.
Setting Hitler and child molesters/perps aside my mind came back to you, sitting there on your tuffet, proudly proclaiming hideous crimes as much worse than yours and I blushed for shame for you. You took the very manhood of someone you promised before God to love and protect, to honor and cherish, and you ripped it from him. You couldn't cut yourself loose from him first via legal divorce. No. You didn't leave him for cause back then. Instead, your hatred of him was expressed in the most vile, devastating form possible.

Shame on your pride and arrogance. You seem like you are softening and reel us back in to help you and then you pull a stunt like today.

Shame on you. I hope ten years from now, you read the archives and find yourself reading your own rantings of defense. I hope there is enough good in you to blush for embarrassment.

While you preserve your pride, you lose the chance to recover your own self. Forget about your marriage. It's done. Toast. Bye-Bye. You traded any hope of recovery for your pride. But you could have recovered yourself, had you been willing to face the true nature of your wrongs.

I don't know that I've ever read something that made me so angry here as your response today.

Good luck!

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 01:24 AM
I�m losing my mind. Or maybe I've lost it.

My mother has been in the hospital in Boston since last Wednesday and I haven�t called her.

She taught me well that it is OK for my H to treat me the way he did because she did it herself. Mothers with narcissistic personality disorder do not generally raise emotionally healthy daughters. I won�t call her because no one is EVER going to speak to me again the way she and my H did.

We marry to complete the unfinished business of our childhood. It may not be true, but mental health professionals love the phrase.

I am fu****g FURIOUS with myself for taking the coward�s way out and taking the despicable, passive/aggressive course of an A instead of filing for D. I didn�t think I had a cowardly bone in my body, and it is becoming clear to me that that is the only sort of bone I have. You don�t think I get it, but you are wrong � so, so wrong. When I started the A, my pdoc was horrified � �don�t, -- you will beat yourself to a pulp and descend again into that pool of self loathing and we�ve already been there.� I am my own harshest critic.

I DESPISE passive/aggressive people � they are emotionally toxic. And I should know because I learned at the feet of my mother the Master.

I am in agony with not knowing what to do � should I file or try? Is wanting to keep my family together a good enough reason to put my H and my S15 through it? Or is that more cowardice?

I�m trying to Plan A my H and deal with the vortex of emotions that my mother causes which makes me withdraw from my H. I sit on the porch and write and cry and I can�t talk to him because he isn�t emotionally safe for me, particularly on something as volatile as my mother, and withdrawing is so not in Plan A so I am failing at that too, and it is all just too much.

And then I read about how I am evil and hated and I�m not willing to look in the mirror and Hitler�s name gets thrown in the mix and it feels like an exercise in futility to even consider trying because if I am so evil that Hitler is brought up, I am irredeemable, and maybe I am, but fighting back is reflexive to me.

My mother and my H are a huge tangle of feelings, pain � such HUGE pain, remorse, constant failure, fear � my God, the fear I have of both of them because they know how to go for my soft underbelly -- resentment, you name it � but NONE of it is good. I don�t know that I will ever untangle them, but the A and her hospitalization are pulling at the ends of the threads and the knots are impossibly impenetrable and I am suffocating. I could deal with one or the other, but both is too much.

I�m not as bad as you think I am, nor am I as good as I can be.

I�m not trying to justify anything, nor is this a pity party. This post is pure pain poured out in the written word.

I'm so scared.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 01:49 AM
Not trying to justify yourself?

What do you call the pity party that you are continuously throwing yourself?
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 02:29 AM
My goodness SW...I read Vibrissa's rant the other day and I came this~~~>|| close to quoting it and agreeing with her wholeheartedly!!!

I'm not sure if you know, but...
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I am a Former Wayward Wife...

Does it shock you that I agree with Vibrissa? That *I* hate WSs too? It's true. I was a VILE and EVIL creature during my affair - I mean truly despicable - cruel - callous - selfish - every bad adjective that you can think of, I was that...

That is NOT who I am today though...So when I read "WS" here, it does not occur to me that anyone would be talking about me, because I am not a WS...So why would I be offended? I know firsthand that a WS is a bad, bad egg - I walked that mile...

My fruits today show me to be a very good person, but the fruits I was producing during my affair show CLEARLY that I was evil and vile...That's the truth - the truth doesn't offend me...

What is true about you TODAY, SW? Are you different today than you were while committing adultery?

I gotta tell you that I always get a big laugh out of new people that land here fresh out of their affairs shouting from the rooftops that Mel is a hater of all those that have ever committed adultery...For 2 reasons: (1) Mel has it prominently displayed in her signature that she is happily recovered with her FWH...and (2) She and I are close friends and talk on the phone very regularly and have met in person more than once...Kinda blows to bits the theory that she hates all FWSs, kwim?

Mel has personally counseled me many times when I've been upset about this or that by saying..."But Mrs. W, what is true about you TODAY? Who are you TODAY?" or some other variation of "Is that the truth?/What is the truth?"...

Mind you she has also LAUGHED her head off at me for being OH SO OFFENDED when another member here [Piojitos] said long ago that he felt that a FWW was the same as a Sasquatch because he had never seen either one in person...I was SO MAD about that! And it totally and completely cracks me up today!!! rotflmao Pio is hilarious...What Pio said wasn't about me, just as what Vibrissa said wasn't about you - Remember that self-centeredness run amok is what got us into affairs in the first place, eh? Btw, in case you are curious, Pio and his wife have recovered their marriage and I know that he's now seen a FWW - I do hope he still hasn't seen a Sasquatch though! grin It takes a while to stop identifying yourself as a WS - I have great hope that you will get there, but it starts with laying down arms...complete honesty with yourself...humility...

So settle SW ~ This whole recovery deal can only happen if you come at it with a HUMBLE HEART - You want to feel peace? Own it ALL - head bowed, on your knees - religious or not - ask to be "sweetly broken and wholly surrendered" as SMB would put it...No defenses...No buts...There is great empowerment in personal responsibility, SW...

Peace,

Mrs. W

Posted By: MrsWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 02:57 AM
And SW, sometimes when we are feeling angry and defensive what we really need is a hug...sometimes a hug can help us get to a place of humility...So SW, for you~~~> hug

Keep coming back - conflict is better than withdrawal... wink

Mrs. W
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
And SW, sometimes when we are feeling angry and defensive what we really need is a hug...sometimes a hug can help us get to a place of humility...So SW, for you~~~> hug

Keep coming back - conflict is better than withdrawal... wink

Mrs. W

I am a terrible handler of WSs. I never 'see' it as Melody or other vets do. That is until I read Mel's posts or Vibs...or Mrs. Wondering....then I'm like 'ah. Yes.' Ususally.

Maybe I had a WW mindset in my marriage. Maybe I totally 'get' how easy it would be to have an affair when you are dealing with a jerk of a husband.

I'm thankful *I* didn't have the affair....and judging from my WXH's treatment of me over an incident in our marriage that was NOT me being WW, I know my life would have been a living hell had I lost the moral high ground....so I totally 'get' how Sadwife feels.....I wish I had divorced my now XH 15 years ago....except I wouldn't have ds...so let's say 10 years ago.

I know it is not very MBerish..but I am not sure some of you get how bad it can be in a dsyfunctional marriage.

((((sadwife)))

p.s. You still should not have committed adultery.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 07:03 AM
Saddest,

You have me confused a bit, and in the process of confusing me I think you are confusing yourself.

No one here can deal with or adequately address your issues with your Mother. No one here can deal with or adequately deal with your failure to defend your boundaries.

BUT...we can deal with your affair and what it has done to you and your H. We can deal with your marriage as it stands NOW and offer advice for you to make it better. We can deal with your uncertainty about what to do.

It seems to me you are mixing two problems and to my mind that would be like you trying to defend two separate cases in the same court room at the same time. NOt very productive and often counter-productive.

You need to see a professional about your issues with your mother. You may need to see one to understand that you have not established boundaries for yourself.

But you need to see or use the Harleys to provide you marriage counseling. You are coming apart at the seams right now and I believe it is because you are trying to address deep seated issues with your mother who is struggling herself due to medical issues, while trying to address your marriage and the damage done to it by your H's treatment of you and your own affair.

Please for your own sake address them separately.

I find it interesting that you say
Quote
She taught me well that it is OK for my H to treat me the way he did because she did it herself.
You don't have to accept the lesson Saddest. You don't have to react or behave like your mother, and you certainly don't have to accept behavior that mimic's your Mother's. These are choices you must make and no one makes them for you. You decide what is acceptable to you and what is not.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
So settle SW ~ This whole recovery deal can only happen if you come at it with a HUMBLE HEART - You want to feel peace? Own it ALL - head bowed, on your knees - religious or not - ask to be "sweetly broken and wholly surrendered" as SMB would put it...No defenses...No buts...There is great empowerment in personal responsibility, SW...

Peace,

Mrs. W
You see, I find it incredible that MrsW was ever a WW. That's how far different she is from one now.

I could still compare her to Hitler, because her acts today define her, just as his did up until his death. He never repented and made compensation. She did. She now "does" MB every day of her life.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I�m losing my mind. Or maybe I've lost it.

My mother has been in the hospital in Boston since last Wednesday and I haven�t called her.

She taught me well that it is OK for my H to treat me the way he did because she did it herself. Mothers with narcissistic personality disorder do not generally raise emotionally healthy daughters. I won�t call her because no one is EVER going to speak to me again the way she and my H did.

We marry to complete the unfinished business of our childhood. It may not be true, but mental health professionals love the phrase.

I am fu****g FURIOUS with myself for taking the coward�s way out and taking the despicable, passive/aggressive course of an A instead of filing for D. I didn�t think I had a cowardly bone in my body, and it is becoming clear to me that that is the only sort of bone I have. You don�t think I get it, but you are wrong � so, so wrong. When I started the A, my pdoc was horrified � �don�t, -- you will beat yourself to a pulp and descend again into that pool of self loathing and we�ve already been there.� I am my own harshest critic.

I DESPISE passive/aggressive people � they are emotionally toxic. And I should know because I learned at the feet of my mother the Master.

I am in agony with not knowing what to do � should I file or try? Is wanting to keep my family together a good enough reason to put my H and my S15 through it? Or is that more cowardice?

I�m trying to Plan A my H and deal with the vortex of emotions that my mother causes which makes me withdraw from my H. I sit on the porch and write and cry and I can�t talk to him because he isn�t emotionally safe for me, particularly on something as volatile as my mother, and withdrawing is so not in Plan A so I am failing at that too, and it is all just too much.

And then I read about how I am evil and hated and I�m not willing to look in the mirror and Hitler�s name gets thrown in the mix and it feels like an exercise in futility to even consider trying because if I am so evil that Hitler is brought up, I am irredeemable, and maybe I am, but fighting back is reflexive to me.

My mother and my H are a huge tangle of feelings, pain � such HUGE pain, remorse, constant failure, fear � my God, the fear I have of both of them because they know how to go for my soft underbelly -- resentment, you name it � but NONE of it is good. I don�t know that I will ever untangle them, but the A and her hospitalization are pulling at the ends of the threads and the knots are impossibly impenetrable and I am suffocating. I could deal with one or the other, but both is too much.

I�m not as bad as you think I am, nor am I as good as I can be.

I�m not trying to justify anything, nor is this a pity party. This post is pure pain poured out in the written word.

I'm so scared.

Sounds like justifing to me.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 12:38 PM
Hi there, I am trying to understand how you feel about all that is happening in your life and how you are thinking things through.....I can see that your feelings for your mother and your husband and the control issues you feel with the two of them. You feel you have to protect yourself from both of them......look you can't change who your mother is/was.....you need to understand that she did what she did because that is all she knows how to do because of what she has learned. Just accept her for who she is and don't feel any responsibility for that yourself.....look at you, you are successful despite her.....
You are a mother and wife despite how she treated you......
Open up communication with your husband and develop a love for him, look at him and don't tangle all your feelings when you look at him.....just work on little things, feel comfortable with them, take them just for what they are, a smile, a touch.......a quiet moment together, a hug and build on that.......one minute at a time.......I don't think you are a bad person, just a lost soul that is afraid to let anyone in anymore.........you do the right thing and that will ease your mind and you know you can't control anyone else, but you will have the knowledge that you have made the right decisions and you will have peace within.......
The best feelings in the world are free, love, honesty.......faith........peace......everything else means nothing........you made mistakes, forgive yourself and start fresh and work on being a wonderful wife, mother, be proud of your accomplishments......forget all the negatives that you are focusing on.......you don't have to continue this way of thinking...........do you
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 01:18 PM
SadW, I am glad that you see the benefit in posting here. Problem is, you can't just post. You need to do the work off of the boards. The posts made here by the vets and the rest of us, are made to make you think and examine yourself. You still are resistant to answering any questions. You need to answer questions so you will HAVE to examine yourself more closely. DON'T be afraid if you start to cry, scream, get angered or smile(although I think laughing and smiling will take a while) when you are trying to answer the questions. We aren't asking the questions for US, they are for YOU. They are meant to make you examine yourself more closely. You need to learn who you are. THIS is what we mean about working on your side of the fence.

I, myself, have not been in a dysfunctional marriage but I most definitely saw one first hand. My father was extremely physically abusive while I was growing up. He almost killed my mother twice. He was abusive to all of us. I would wake up some mornings with my mother hiding in my closet as my Dad raged because my mom slept in and he was late for work. A MODEL FOR DYSFUNCTIONAL.

My Mom began her affair in June 2008. She moved in with her OM in Aug 2008. She ended it in May 2010 when she moved back in with my Dad. I don't let her get away with telling me how my dad was horrible to her and how horrible she felt. I KNOW it. I LIVED it. Thing is, she could have left before. Finally, one day, she said to me, "I am afraid to live alone." You see, THAT'S ONE reason she didn't leave before. But why did she go back? If my Dad was so horrible, what reason did she have? She answered me with this, "Because I love him." My parents are struggling. I have suggested MB, they just won't bite. Will they make it? Who knows? BUT, it is up to them and I have my OWN healing to deal with.

SadW, I believe that the feelings you are experiencing are good. You are trying to examine your life. Where we WON'T let you go is into baling OTHERS. When you look at something look at it through YOUR actions and YOUR choices. Afterall, you can only control what YOU do/say/act like.

MB is about a lot of self examination. You need to figure out how you act in a relationship and how you SHOULD act. Examine yourself more closely. Hey, I got an idea. You are a lawyer. Pretend that you are a witness and you are asking yourself questions on the witness stand. You know what "laws of relationships" you need to follow(MB). Would you let a "witness" get away with deflecting? You know how to do this, just do it to yourself.

hug I too felt like you needed a hug. I am just glad that you have decided to stick around, for now. Conflict is better than withdrawal. MB in ever facet of life. laugh DrH is a GENIUS.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 01:54 PM
SadW:

I am going to take a different tack with you.

Your not vile or evil. You did eveil and vile things, and now, your not going to, are you?

Things that have worked to protect you, from your mother, and your Husband, I believe, are being revealed to you as NOT WORKING.

And that is tough to learn. Now wife deserves to have wine thrown in her face. No spouse deserved to be cheated on. They are both crimes against another, but the score keeping doesn't help anyone.

Your mother is lying in a hospital bed, and you can't find it in yourself to CALL HER and ask her how she is doing. Becasue she may be evil to you. That is P/A behavior right there. Your withholding the affection/concern/care that could COMOFRT your mother in this time of her need. Yet, becasue of what you THINK her reaction might be, you do NOT reach out.

Your mother learned how to push your buttons to get what she wanted.

Your Husband learned to push these same buttons.

Move your buttons. You don't have to react in the same ways, and change the behaviors that have so twisted up your lives.

You are worthy of support, respect and love. You deserved to get them from your mother, and husband. Unfortunately, you did not, and you did not learn what the coping mechanisms to deal with it might be until Just LEarning posted some of them to you.

When JL Posted that you shouldn't allow these behaviors, you recited your list of the wrongs that your H perpetrated against you. But you TOOK IT. So it worked for your H. It didn't FOR YOU, because you built up YEARS of resentment and anger over it. YOU KNEW that something was wrong, but you had NO WAY of determining a way out.

JL has provided that way out. So have many others around here. But if comes down to YOU establishing boundaries with these other people that are comforable to you, and them. They might not LIKE the fact that you are acting differently, and that thier methods no longer work, but that is ok. This too, shall pass.

So, call your mother. If she wants to fight, you don't have too. Change the subject. Or let her talk about all the things wrong with her medically, and just listen.

I do not think you should go up there, as the emotional toll would be too great, and your still learning new ways to do things. You need to get into better practice of these new behaviors.

SadW: Many here continue to help you becasue you are slowly, slowly getting it. This is a marathon. There is only room for 30 people in Rome right now. Keep building.

LG


Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 04:04 PM
SW,
While I do agree that you are justifying etc. I have to express my sorrow with what you are going through all at once.

My father was horribly physically abusive to his children. We have all suffered enormously in our lives and none of us has ever been able recall a lot of our childhoods. He died when I was 19. My mother was P/A, she drank way too much and lived with a huge chip on her shoulder. She spent my childhood calling me names, telling me she hated me etc. In all my life and that of my brothers none of us can remember a hug, kiss or an I love you from either of them. Not one. As an adult my mother would show up at my house on my birthday, open my door, throw something in and tell me that that was my "dammed, bitc*ing birthday present" and leave without another word. She only treated her own mother and me this way. Still, when my mother had cancer I spent 4 years of my life taking care of her, keeping her in her home when she was incapable of living alone, rushing to her house in the middle of the night when she would yank out her trache and not be able to breathe. I did all of this when my children were small and I was running back and forth between my home and my farm taking care of my animals and land, the kids school and all of that and their tennis, karate and music lessons. I thought I would die. She told me "I will see you dead before I die" all during the time I was killing myself taking care of her. I understand.

Here is the thing. I took it, I let it go and I did all of that because I knew in my heart that if I did not I would never be able to live with myself. Could that be the source of some of your problem here? With my mother guilt was a powerful motivator. I feel terribly sorry for you going through all of this with a mother who was not a very good mother. BUT like me you grew up and became successful, in spite of or because of, who knows? You did it and whether you feel badly about her illness or care one way or the other when you think of her in the terms of how she treats you do you think you can live with yourself this way? If you can that is fine and understandable. I am just trying to help a little. Why should you care? You don't have to. Why should you help her or call her? You don't need to. I just think that she is the way she is because she learned it and that is just so sad. We all have our things, hers was terrible as a mother. She was probably not very happy with herself or comfortable. She is human and we all have that feeling of taking care of each other. Think about your future and how you will feel if you never extended some kindness to her at this time.

You just do not need all these bad feelings at once. Your mother is separate right now from anything else. It would benefit you and your beginning to heal your H greatly to relieve yourself of your feelings about all of this in whatever way you need to.

As I said, if you feel fine about cutting her out there are very few people who could blame you. Just think of yourself at this point. She apparently never did so you have to. What will you be able to live with?

Get this done somehow and then move on. You have a lot of work to do. It is hard to feel good enough to be humble to another person you feel treated you badly when you are whole, unstressed and mentally healthy. Remember, you are the one in your R that needs to do the work right now. You are the one who made the horrible choice that you did and caused all the pain now. You owe it you everyone to settle as much as you can in your life and get moving with this. JMHO
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
My mother has been in the hospital in Boston since last Wednesday and I haven�t called her.

She taught me well that it is OK for my H to treat me the way he did because she did it herself. Mothers with narcissistic personality disorder do not generally raise emotionally healthy daughters. I won�t call her because no one is EVER going to speak to me again the way she and my H did.

We marry to complete the unfinished business of our childhood. It may not be true, but mental health professionals love the phrase.
SW, I have a CD set that I find helpful in understanding family dynamic. It is called "Transcending Anger" by Father Tom Allender. I learned a lot about myself and my family dynamic by listening to it. You should be able to find a copy on line. He also wrote a book called "God loves an unmade bed" but I haven't had time to read that one.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 06:36 PM
tj/

DWG--

You are a better woman than I am, far better. My mother was not present in my life at all, aside from trying to push me off on others. A WAM (walk-away mother) if you will.

If I had the chance you did, that she needed my help during cancer....well, let's just say I would walk away myself.

How you got past that resentment and anger, I do not know. I wish I could.

/tj
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 06:37 PM
suamico

I had not heard of that one, I may have to look into that even though my mother is long gone, issues still remain. I used a book called "The Dance of Anger" to help. It is written by an acquaintance of mine who wrote several other books. It might be another good resource.
Posted By: suamico Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
suamico

I had not heard of that one, I may have to look into that even though my mother is long gone, issues still remain. I used a book called "The Dance of Anger" to help. It is written by an acquaintance of mine who wrote several other books. It might be another good resource.
I think it is an awesome tool for understanding oneself. He also has a few more CD sets I want to get. They are Family Spirituality, Moving from fear to faith, and Processing Our Guilt. He also has some new ones. Here is the website www.lifesjourney.org. You can get them from the website or buy a used one some place else. Now I need to go and listen to the CD's again. I do that every once in a while. I learn something different every time.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 06:58 PM
Continuing education for Marriages and Personal Growth. Why is it we have to wait until we are in these positions to find out that we can always learn more? I always wondered when I was going to really grow up and then I realized, I always thought a grown up was someone who knew everything already. What a mistake it was to grow up thinking it was only when you quit learning you could be considered a grown up. Thankfully I never did stop learning hence the feeling that I was never going to grow up.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
tj/

DWG--

You are a better woman than I am, far better. My mother was not present in my life at all, aside from trying to push me off on others. A WAM (walk-away mother) if you will.

If I had the chance you did, that she needed my help during cancer....well, let's just say I would walk away myself.

How you got past that resentment and anger, I do not know. I wish I could.

/tj

Hardly. It was for me. I could not live with the guilt I would feel leaving her to die alone. Probably the fact that I was a nurse also had something to do with it but mostly it was so that I could live with myself the rest of my life and not beat myself up feeling guilty. She did make certain we had lessons, clothing etc. it was not total abandonment no matter how much we often wished it was.

LOL, they used to take us to the local orphanage (this was in the mid 50's when there was such a thing here) and tell us that was where we were going if we did not behave. It was pretty brutal. I understand where they came from, it is hard to forgive it never-the-less it factored into their behavior.

I can live with about anything but guilt, probably my biggest boundary that kept me faithful. I can't deal with knowing I could have done better or done something right and made the wrong choice. I am no better than anyone, it is just a matter of what I could live with for the remainder of my time here.

I can live with what happened to me with GM. If I was him I think I would not be alive right now to tell the tale. It would kill me to live with that kind of guilt.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 07:22 PM
The thing is...I wonder if my lack of guilt is what keeps fueling this resentment.

I can safely say that I could walk away from her pleads for help without an ounce of guilt showing. It would bring me a great deal of pleasure, in fact.

That is why I say you are better than me. You did what I never can.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
The thing is...I wonder if my lack of guilt is what keeps fueling this resentment.

I can safely say that I could walk away from her pleads for help without an ounce of guilt showing. It would bring me a great deal of pleasure, in fact.

That is why I say you are better than me. You did what I never can.

When things are bad enough it supercedes guilt I would imagine. I would bet that my situation, as bad as it was, was not as bad as yours nor did it affect me as badly. We are all different with different tolerances. Your mother dug her own grave here, she treated you badly enough that she lost you. Her loss. Yours too but not a loss of her in particular.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 07:45 PM
Are there any books that you can recommend to help with this?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me about this. It helps to know that someone knows what I'm going through.

I realize this isn't MB help, but... I trust you all for just about anything. hug
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
Are there any books that you can recommend to help with this?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me about this. It helps to know that someone knows what I'm going through.

I realize this isn't MB help, but... I trust you all for just about anything. hug

Sorry for the big old thread jack but I think all of this may very well apply to the situation at least in some way.

The Dance of Anger by Harriet Goldhor Lerner helped me.

http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-C...mp;s=books&qid=1280175994&sr=8-1

She has several books that follow this one. As I said before, she is an acquaintance of mine. She is a very nice woman, our children have the same names and are each about a year apart in age and we had mutual friends. I have not read this book for a long time, it might not really be good but I do remember when I read it it was helpful in my relationship with my mother. You might look at her other books. She was at the Menninger Foundation before we lost it to Houston.
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/26/10 08:54 PM
I'm going to go an even DIFFERENT route.....

SW...

My DD16 was molested when she was 9. He was a step-father to a friend of hers. He got to my daughter ONCE. He had been raping and sodemizing his step-daughter for over a year. The night he molested my daughter, he did so to both girls, at the same time.

My DD could not live with what he had done. And when he attempted to do so again, she came forward to me. We promptly called the police (which took a HUGE amount of strain......killing the man was what my H wanted to do...I took those easy options out of his control...aka..hid the guns....). He was arrested.

There was an investigation. Many interviews for my DD and her friend. The sick [censored] didn't take the plea bargin, and instead wanted a trial. After all, nobody "understood" his side. Many experts will tell you that when a perp. does this it is to put his victims through another he77 of having to re-tell their story to a bunch of strangers with them there. Another sick twisted deed of the perps.

We got the last victory though....he was found guilty on all charges and will spend the next 96 yrs in prison......he is not eligible for parole until he serves 55% of that (I'm pretty sure that was the total...its been a few years so that is a bit cloudy to me.....).

My point is, he is NOW in prison. He has been there for the last 7 yrs. He has not molested another child since then....for he has not had an oppertunity to do so. So the fact that he HASN'T molested another child, does that make him no longer vile or evil?

I would say no.....

My daughter would say no....

What would change that??? His WILLINGNESS to get help, to OWN his choice. To take responsiblity for his actions and to release any justification for what he has done...(I don't "buy" the "I-was-molested" BS.....never have never will....). To make AMENDS beyond what the courts have required.

You say your affair was not evil.....only a "mistake". That is just another perp for twisting the knife deeper into the victim. And every day that you hold onto those justifications, those excuses, is another day you allow EVIL to become YOU.

Just because you ended the affair, does not make you a changed woman. It does not release you from your evil deeds. No more so than going to prison and not molesting another child makes the monster who dared touched my daughter less evil......

It will take much more than that....

And each and every day you keep score....you feed your resentment, your justifications......you do the same.

You don't want to be called evil....

Then change the mechnaism that allowed evil to proliferate.....

Not2fun

ps....before you go and get yourself tied up in another tizzy....I will tell you...I point blank compared my H to that monster. I flat out told HIM his actions were no better than that monster and that what he had done caused me MORE pain and agony than that whole horrid episode. I didn't spare my H's "feelings"

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 04:38 AM
Posting on this forum feels like the emotional equivalent of voluntarily sticking hot needle in my eyes, but if nothing else I am giving an on the ground perspective on a WW from the moment the A ended, and maybe that will help someone, maybe even us.

I think this thread is some evidence of a mental state approaching psychosis which is probably about right for where some WW's are. Or at least this one.

I also have realized that I am not being wholly present with my H, who is, at least currently, not nearly as hard on me as you all are because I am bringing some of the defensiveness I feel here into our R when I don't think it is really appropriate for where he is. Just something I need to keep in mind.

First, I am not evil. I have ended it. I have told my H everything he has wanted to know which to date is not much. If he were to ask me details today, I would tell him that I'm not ready, that I will lie, and that won't help anything in the end. Because I am not ready, and I would lie, and I must be honest. But he hasn't asked. I am working on loving him and making him feel safe. For where we are, physically and emotionally, I am doing all I can.

His grip is loosening a bit in that he seems more comfortable with me being out of eyesight and he and S15 are going to play golf tomorrow (just found out) so I'm hoping I can squeeze into Steve's schedule while they are gone. If not, well, I don't know if not. I just an hour ago heard about this window.

I talked to my pdoc this morning about my mom and H and he said "you need to talk to your H about your mother" and worked through a script with me. I sent H a text message asking if we could go for a beer, and did a core dump on him, sobbing and shaking. The four days I have been withdrawn from him over my mom were REALLY hard on him -- he always thinks I am trying to decide whether to stay married to him -- he knows how mixed up he and my mom get in my head. He was kind and listened and didn't argue with me and by the end of the conversation I wanted to curl up in his lap but instead I flirted with him.

Progress.

Then I called my mother in his presence because I wanted his moral support and did exactly what my pdoc said to do -- said what she wanted to hear. She's 80, I'm doing my passive/aggressive thing via text message, let the poor woman up.

I looked at my H and said "how did I do?" and he said "you are such a good liar."

Hmmm.

Well, he's right, I lie all the time to everyone about everything -- and I'm not talking about the A -- it's a pattern of covering up, sweeping things under the rug, etc.

I read the "hugs" while I was standing in the kitchen and sat down on the floor with my head in my arms sobbing. Thank you.

I've read Dance of Anger 3 times -- and am due for a 4th. Dance of Intimacy is also great, although I had to put that down in favor of SAA. I am reading now for the 3rd time "Will I Ever Be Good Enough" by Karyl McBride -- about daughters of narcissistic mothers. Required reading if you think you might be one -- but be prepared to take it slowly as the pain will engulf you.

And if you need something light to laugh with your spouse about, get "Sh** MY Dad Says" and read it aloud. H & I laughed until we were crying. Perfect for a couple who is in that awkward stage of post DD, pre everything else.

On a baseline level it is simple -- don't have an affair, ever, no matter what. Everything above that feels complicated.

And one more thing -- the irrational venom, vitriol and defensiveness I drop in this forum is venom, vitriol and defensiveness my H doesn't have to endure. Thank you for providing me a forum in which to vent without hurting him further. The web designers should give the posters the ability to tag their posts "insanity alert" or something. It's not like I'm not aware when I'm going off the tracks. But letting it out here is better than the alternative.

not2fun -- I can't imagine.... bless you and her. I don't pray anymore much -- a lifelong Episcopalian, I left the church I loved with all my heart in 2007. But notwithstanding there are people I pray for daily and I will pray for you both.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 05:48 AM
So stop lying. Okay, so it's a defense mechanism. Great...you know you have this issue, so deal with it head on.

I'm wondering a couple things.
1. Why don't you want to do the marriage builders program which is successful? You keep wanting to do things your way...which has not worked in the past.

2. Do you think rather than giving you space your husband is starting to give up?

Remind me again. What are his emotional needs? What are yours? How much time have y'all spent alone this past 7 days? What love busters did y'all us to commit towards each other that you are not doing now?
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 06:39 AM
OK. You're scared. OK, you are passive-aggressive. OK, you are the product of your childhood, controlled and molded by a mother with massive problems of her own. OK, it seems that she and your BH may have been in cahoots to ruin your life. Surely, all of these things have some logic and factual basis behind them. I doubt there are many here who do not feel bad for the pain you are experiencing. But here is the shocker. At least it was for me. It is a simple truth. Once you are an adult, you have the ability to make choices. You have choices, and you own the choices you make. You have free will. You are not a leaf in the wind, tumbling at the mercy of the forces around you. You are not predetermined to make evil choices. You have the ability to discern right from wrong. You made a terrible choice, and you didn't really HAVE to make it. You chose it, because it was the easy way out. You know this, and it makes you feel like a coward. I know those feelings, because I was a coward and made choices that I knew were wrong but made them because I thought I could justify them, and because they were easier than taking on the seemingly impossible job of confronting and tackling my own demons, and because I could blame other people, which unburdened me from much of the guilt. Still, I made them. You made them. We both own them, and there is no longer any easy way out.

Do you believe in free will, or are you merely the helpless product of the forces that shaped you? If you truly believe in your humanity, your intelligence, your will, your accomplishments professionally (you own those, right?), then there is no escape from the truth that you chose evil. It is an age old tale. It is the plot line to half the books in the world and most of the stories in the most famous of all books. If you don't want to end up a lonely, bitter old woman filled with regret, there is only one road to a different future. It is a long and hard road, but it starts with totally owning what you did, with taking full responsibility for it, with driving out any thought that you did what you did because of the all the terrible forces that backed you into a corner. You have to abandon the psychobabble, the explanations for your actions that an old fashioned psychotherapist would smugly discern to explain your pathology, stemming from your awful mother, etc. You just have to throw that out the window. It is the one and only door that you can walk through and find the path to eventual happiness and peace, whether you remain married to your BH or not.
Posted By: tully Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 09:08 AM
Quote
I have told my H everything he has wanted to know which to date is not much. If he were to ask me details today, I would tell him that I'm not ready, that I will lie, and that won't help anything in the end. Because I am not ready, and I would lie, and I must be honest.

Lurker alert! I kind of caught on to the tail-end of this situation and for a while I thought that people were being a bit tough on you but I was keeping an open mind.
But the quote above made me realise that they are right. You are not even remotely there yet. You are absolutely a WW, not a FWS! Sorry but who cares that you are not ready?!? You still have no idea of what you have done. Be careful that your BH is not disconnecting himself from you. Not sure how long this situation has been going on for him but there is only so much a person can take.
Posted By: armymama Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 10:27 AM
Having lived it, I do not believe recovery of an M can occur until there is openness and honesty. If a WS cannot be open and honest, he/she is still wayward in thinking, if not deed. I "took" close to 3 years of trickle truth, outright lying and lying by omission (duration of the A plus 21 months after D-day) and it was extremely damaging to me and to our M. It was perhaps the most damaging aspect of the A, even more than the crazy, obsessive portion of the active A.

AM
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 11:07 AM
Saddest, we all realize that you've had a tough childhood and some unfortunate circumstances during adulthood...like A LOT of us on this forum. However, you choose whether that defines you as a person or not and if you blame your actions and reactions in the present based on what has transpired in the past. When we get this far into a marriage and an affair happens, there is some serious mess ups being committed by both parties in the marriage.

Imagine if your husband had an affair or multiple affairs. You can even throw in some wild details with a touch of illicit activities. However, you'd only be able to imagine the worst because you wouldn�t be able to get the truth. I mean, seriously, can you imagine the huge slap in the face it would feel to you if you asked your husband details like �who was it�, �who many people was it with�, �why�, �how long did the affair/affairs go on� etc etc etc. And he said to you, �you know, I�m just not ready to talk about it. Sorry.� Would you really just accept that and it�d be okay? And then you�re left to sit and stew in all the pain and betrayal without any answers or just limited answers here and there which just fuels the uncertainty of what happened.

I know, I know. You have trust issues that you need to work through first. And while you�re doing this, you�re creating a huge amount of trust issues for your husband now. I can say with absolute certainty that if my spouse physically strayed, I�d be gone. But to expect to stick around without having the answers I wanted laid out to me�that�d be like spitting in my face after having an affair on me.

It�s quite clear that you don�t want to buy into the marriage builders program. You want to use this forum to engage in a gripe session to help get things off your chest. You want to throw out little bits and pieces of stuff to show that you�re making progress and want a pat on the back. However, you want to continue to be deceptive and lie despite saying you don�t want this �defense mechanism�. Why don�t you just wake up this morning and say, �you know, I�m going to stop the lying. I�m going to start being an honest person. I�m going to stop blaming the past and letting it control who I am today.� Yes, it can be that easy.

I don�t expect a reply. I just thought I�d throw some things out there. What I have found is that those folks on here that keep spinning their wheels and not taking in the marriage builders program find less and less people reaching out to help them. You get less and less replies. And the one that started the thread either ends up posting in the divorced section or stops posting completely because they have isolated themselves.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 12:29 PM
I will put in my 0.02. (worth every penny)
SW; you are too close and defensive to get perspective right now. You can not see the elephant in the fridge, because of all the grey paint in there. ( I know a take on a sad old joke, but I like the analogy.)

You should continue reading Dr. H's books, but what you really need is a perspective on fog speak.

GM.. that guy.. foggiest first time poster I have ever read. If you can go and read his origional postings/thought process you will learn quickly what fog is.

I am not saying you are GM, or that your situations are the same, but once you have been around awhile you develop a "fog screen" that you can see a mile away. no pun intended, GM.

T/J
<I almost can't beleive you are the same man, reading your posts now and comparing them to before. wow>

SW;
You are going to have to read and learn what fog speak is.
You are an attorney, I am sure that in your line of work you identify similar patterns of thinking in people you counsel. Maybe not about A's, but they are there I am sure.

Returning posters on this thread are identifying the fogspeak in your communications. It. drives. them. nuts.
If so may vets can easily spot this, there HAS to be truth in their words.

If you are only going to argue, nothing here is going to fix your M. You need perspective.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 05:32 PM
More hot needles..... best thing for lancing the abscess. I know I am a WW -- it's been 18 days since I ended it. I know I don't have perspective -- just occasional moments of lucidity.

Am coaching with Steve tomorrow afternoon. Don't know how I am going to pull that off, but I'll figure out a way.

You should have seen me over analyzing the personality inventory.... then I decided to go with my gut and send it without reading over it again. Although I did want to put a footnote about agreeing that its OK for criminals to be released on a loophole -- those "loopholes" keep us all safe from things like unreasonable searches and evidence tampering. I'm a believer in the system.... OK, I'm over noodling, again.

So, here is what I am going to talk to him about:

1. Note taking policy.

2. H hasn't brought up the A except to say he wants me to guide us through this. He hasn't asked any details. I don't think at this point that I would be radically honest. I'm being radically honest here --I don't have my head around it yet and am afraid that in the moment, I would panic and fudge. I didn't mean to suggest that I would never tell him the truth because I absolutely will if he wants to hear it. I'm just glad he hasn't asked yet, and I'm not going to bring it up until I know with certainty I will be RH.

If I hadn't come here, I would have seriously f***ed this part up --I would have been a deer in the headlights if he asked. The trickling out of information that armywife described is exactly what I want to avoid. What if he never wants to know? Do I press it? When? How?

3. EP's that make sense for our situation beyond NC.

4. His DJ's send me running for the door -- how do I handle them at the time?

5. I want to talk to a friend.

Suggestions on prioritizing/content invited. It's only 45 minutes and I want to make the best of it.

H's #1, and according to him, only unmet EN is for honesty and openness -- not specific to the A, but of course that is part of it. That's why I thought talking to him about my mother was a good thing -- in fact, he said this morning he was happy that I tore down part of a wall.

We spend at least 3 hours of UA a day -- usually more.

LB's for the week -- me withdrawing, him a couple of DJ's. Not a bad week.

Lying/hiding behind my wall is second nature to me. It's safe. What I can't intellectualize I hide. H is doing a good job making it feel safer to come out. When I come out, he gets a chance to meet my EN's. My coming out meets his EN for openness and honesty. You all have me confused -- isn't that good?
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 06:05 PM
How do you handle his DJ's. You validate that he feels that way, and respectfully ask for his patience and forbearance as you seek to prove you are not as he currently views you, or at least will not be that person at the other side of the process.

I.E. you could say to him, "I know I must seem to be ___________, but I ask that you give me time to prove to you at the end of our marriage building journey that I've become a better wife.

Or something similar. DJ's or any LB is about fear and control. He probably has lots of fear and there is very little he can control. So as you are successful in the program, chances are, his DJs will go away. As you demonstrate EP's as well as the other protections of Marriage Building, there will be less for him to fear and less he'll want to control.

If he feels safe and satisfied, the need to DJ or LB in any fashion is minimized.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
2. H hasn't brought up the A except to say he wants me to guide us through this. He hasn't asked any details. I don't think at this point that I would be radically honest. I'm being radically honest here --I don't have my head around it yet and am afraid that in the moment, I would panic and fudge. I didn't mean to suggest that I would never tell him the truth because I absolutely will if he wants to hear it. I'm just glad he hasn't asked yet, and I'm not going to bring it up until I know with certainty I will be RH.

Stop rationalizing this. Who says you can't be honest? Foggy you, that's who.

Just take the plunge. (Not advising here when or how or whatever - soooo glad you're counseling w/ Steve tomorrow - just speaking about how you proceed with recovery, your M, and life in general after this.) I think I've posted this to you before ( confused ): commit to being honest. It's that simple. Not easy, but it is simple.

Once you make that commitment, the key will be, I think, radical - not brutal - honesty.

Do not think you know better than your BH re: what he needs to know, what he can handle, keeping things back so as to "not hurt him." You tell the truth humbly, in its entirety, and be willing to do so. That will go a long way towards getting your R off on the right foot.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 06:18 PM
Quote
You tell the truth humbly, in its entirety, and be willing to do so.


In other (familiar) words: "the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

By withholding the truth from your DH you are committing a DJ against him, assuming he can't handle it.

This isn't a court of law-- where short, concise answers are best. This is real life, where only the truth will do.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 08:19 PM
SadW, I am SO SO SO GLAD that you are going to be counseling with Steve. I bet you'll like him.

When you and your BH spend these 3 hours a day of UA together, what are you doing? You should be engaging in activities that encompass these four ENS, SF, Conversation, affection and recreational companionship. These are IMPORTANT ENs that need to be met solely by your spouse to get the best result.

Stick with MB. You have come so far. You will be surprised at your current thinking the further out you get. Take care and be sure to update us on what Steve has to tell you. laugh
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/27/10 08:31 PM
SW,

I just want to restate the warning that bringing the truth to light in bits and pieces will result in failed recovery. Anything that comes out after the fact will reset your husband's D-day - Recovery timer back to zero. New information that comes out later will destroy his trust all over again until he sees no way for it to be recovered. This will be especially bad if it looks like recovery is progressing and new information appears when things seem to be improving.

Lying is a Love Buster. It is always something that depletes the Love Bank and whenever a lie is discovered after substantial progress is made everything has to begin again from scratch and a BS will only start over a time or two and then the emotional toll will become too high to continue with an empty Love Bank...

Mark
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 12:09 AM
There will be no bits and pieces. Even as foggy as I am I can see how cruel that would be.

Finally had a conversation about the A today-had to manipulate him a little to open up but that's ok.

He doesn't want details, at least not at this point- visuals are eating him up. Told him the detail door is open whenever he wants to walk through it.

Here is my question- he is, at least today, mot disturbed about my post DD1 cover up lies. I told him that from what I had read here that my behavior was, while inexcusable, not atypical. I explained the addiction analogy. He doesn't buy it - none of it. I'm not sure what else I can say that will help him with this. Will ask Steve tomorrow of course but any thoughts from BH's on this would be wonderful.

Mark1952, you a post on this subject recently on someone's thread that talked about this issue and right/left brain functions. I've looked back through your recent posts and I can't find it - I can't remember whether it was a WS or BS or if it was even on this forum. Would you mind posting the link for me? I want to print it out and give it to my H.

Scotland, we do lots of fun stuff together - the talk today was on a mountain hike which made the sentences short! The most important thing I learned is that his biggest fear is that I'm going to bail on the M. I suspect when he is convinced I am not I'm going to see what he's feeling - I just need to stay ahead of the curve and make sure we have the systems firmly in place so that it is a controlled burn rather than a conflagration-I have been burned enough over the years. Time for a new approach.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 01:04 AM
SW,

I have a bit of it in my Managing Memories thread linked in my sig line. I also in recent days posted some about it on FM's thread here.

It so happens that today, Pep posted something about the brain on a new thread in SAA. It's still front page active, so look for it as well.

If your husband asks questions be sure to answer them, no matter what level of detail he needs or wants. It is the lies that do the most damage because the BH can no longer trust himself to tell the truth from a lie and so will doubt his own ability to know when he is being lied to.

In cases of being lied to, often for a long time in various ways, even before the affair began, a BS will often have Openness and Honesty as a top or even the top Emotional Need. This is not typical for most and will subside eventually, but at least in the beginning, honesty is about all that matters and any signs that honesty is being withheld or that the truth is being twisted or manipulated will cause the BS's Love Bank to go so far into the red that it can take months to dig out from even a single instance of lying.

Too many times WSs have come here, confessed, yet withheld bits of information that when they came out, in some cases over a year into what seemed to be a decent recovery process at the time, caused the whole thing crash and burn as a result.

I just can't emphasize enough the importance of not holding back any information that he seeks. I warn everybody I post to that has been wayward; yet so many self-destruct by holding back or trying to hide the truth, usually in some misguided effort to spare the feelings of the BS. Please don't do that. If your husband decides to leave you over this, let it be for the truth and not because you lied to him...

You do need to be careful however that you don't use the justifications you told yourself as reasons for the affair. These were probably related mainly to what was missing in your relationship with your husband and things he either did or did not do the way you would have liked. No matter how screwed up the marriage, leaving it might have been justifiable but cheating was not. There is no just reason for cheating. None...

So get the real truth into your mind as to how an affair is a selfish choice so that it can shape your answers to his questions one of which is likely to eventually be "Why?" There is no good answer to this question beyond making that selfish choice. Rest assured that telling him that he had any part whatsoever in that choice will not resolve the conflict and will probably cause a longer time to recover if it doesn't bring it to a halt.

Dr Harley talks of the path to recovery being quite narrow. This is so true as to bare repeating to yourself time and again. Any deviation from the road will typically lead to ruin and wreckage where the marriage once stood.

[/lecture]

Mark
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 01:48 AM
If it helps, SW, my DH didn't really buy the addiction angle either. To him it reeked of an "I couldn't help it" copout. So we just didn't look at it that way. I just focused on the fact that it was in fact a choice, and my roller coaster feelings were part of the consequences. It actually made it easier for me because I was - at least at that time - vulnerable to "getting stuck in the psychobabble" in lieu of doing the hard stuff. I already had a psych doc reminding me how "common" hypersexual affairs were while manic, and I was resisting that too. I basically resisted anything that might have given me some kind of "out." It kept me from gazing at my navel too much smile
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:11 AM
SW,

Since our society seems to have made addicts victims and labeled addiction as a sickness, which as we all know is not something you can do anything about, the idea of an affair being an addiction is considered by many to be a cop-out of the first degree.

The same can be said for what Dr Harley calls the fog of an affair. Many don't buy the idea that people can act insane because of temporary changes in brain chemistry as the result of an affair. Yet around here we see evidence of it all over the place and people who have ended affairs, worked to recover their marriages and look back on the things they said or did during that time can scarcely believe they were capable of doing some of those things.

My wife and I were discussing an affair that came to our attention recently and she described believing how everything she was doing was right somehow. She looks back now and can't even imagine ever thinking like that but she knows that she did.

But for those who have bought into the idea that addiction is somehow equal to an illness which is either hereditary or contracted as a disease from some infectious agent the whole things smacks of absolution for what they see clearly as a crime.

At the other extreme are those hopeless romantics that believe that "love" is mystical or a magical thing that happens only when the stars are aligned just right and "the one" is encountered in the journey called life. These people are often willing to let a spouse off the hook entirely but seldom will they ever recover their marriage and usually end up having an affair of their own unless they get divorced pretty quickly.

These are the same folks who put their spouse on a pedestal and expect perfection in the relationship by virtue of being married to the right person. Of course it is this very attitude that leads to neglect of the spouse that can so often lend itself to a relationship that is devoid of having ENs met and results in a vulnerability to an affair.

Mark
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:40 AM
Saddest,

I've decided to post in two parts because I don't want to mix the issues I see. You said something that really has me questioning your intelligence. You said
Quote
Lying/hiding behind my wall is second nature to me. It's safe. What I can't intellectualize I hide.
To quote Dr. Phil "How's that workin fer ya?"

Seriously, how has your life strategy really worked for you? It sure hasn't helped your marriage. I doubt it helps in child rearing. I know it hasn't helped in your other relationships such as with your Mother, you have allowed her to continue to control your life, just by your response to her.

In short, really don't think you are all that safe and happy, unless you feel "ignorance" really is bliss. frown

I know you are still fogged up. I know it has been only a short time. I also understand your H's reluctance to buy the addiction thing. What is meant is that withdrawal is very much like a drug addict. What is NOT meant is that you could not help yourself. YOU MOST CERTAINLY COULD HAVE MADE BETTER CHOICES. YOU SIMPLY REFUSED TO DO SO.

Please think about how effective your life strategy of lying and hiding has really been.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:48 AM
Saddest,

I notice something that I thought I should mention. I notice your itinerary for your talk to Steve H. I noticed this statement in another post by you.
Quote
the talk today was on a mountain hike which made the sentences short! The most important thing I learned is that his biggest fear is that I'm going to bail on the M. I suspect when he is convinced I am not I'm going to see what he's feeling - I just need to stay ahead of the curve and make sure we have the systems firmly in place so that it is a controlled burn rather than a conflagration-I have been burned enough over the years. Time for a new approach.


What am I noticing???? Your attempt to control your meeting with SteveH and your attempt to control how your H recovers so as to minimize the damage to...YOU.

I also think you miss something in your assessment of your H. He KNOWS you have bailed on the marriage and that hurts. What he wonders/fears is if you are "continue" to bail on the marriage. Your continued attempts as "selective honesty" are going to hurt your marriage more than you can realize. I doubt you married a stupid man. I doubt that he really is as naive about you and your behavior as you appear to think he is.

You need to really address this honesty thing, big time. You also need to quit orchestrating your life as if it were a court room. Nothing wrong with being prepared, plenty wrong with trying to control other people. You can to that in a court room...sometimes. However, it never really works in real life IF the person you are dealing with is on the ball.

You need to think about these things.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:51 AM
I love a bit of JL!
Posted By: karmasrose Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 06:42 AM
I agree with JL.

SW--leave your lawyering hat in your office.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 01:38 PM
SW,

The most important thing I learned is that his biggest fear is that I'm going to bail on the M.

What was his relationship with his mother like?

I hate to admit it, but I have a great deal of maternal abandonment issues, and I suspect many other men do too.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gamma
What was his relationship with his mother like?

I hate to admit it, but I have a great deal of maternal abandonment issues, and I suspect many other men do too.
I'm sorry, but I think this is a distraction from the issue at hand, which is rebuilding the marriage.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 02:21 PM
[quote=Just Learning Your attempt to control your meeting with SteveH and your attempt to control how your H recovers so as to minimize the damage to...YOU.[/quote]

I'm seriously confused. On the one hand, I am responsible for allowing my H to treat me the way he has in the past, but on the other hand, my wanting to ensure that he doesn't treat me that way in the future is also wrong because I am trying to control his recovery. That makes me want to cry and throw up and run away.

Is SteveH going to beat me up? I read on other threads that that isn't his M.O, and I wasn't ready for that, but I can get ready.

I am being honest with H. I can't be honest with my mother. The two of them are mixed up in my brain. I'm trying to un mix them but so much of interaction is reflexive rather than considered.

H has SERIOUS abandonment issues with his mother which makes what I did all the crueler.

The quote thing has me beat.

Sick and hopeless.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 02:22 PM
Mark1952, that is exactly what I was looking for -- thanks.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 02:23 PM
SadW;

Leave it to J/L to hit the nail on the head:

Quote
What am I noticing???? Your attempt to control your meeting with SteveH and your attempt to control how your H recovers so as to minimize the damage to...YOU.


Did anyone else notice that the FIRST line of her discussion with Steve harley was to be: 1: Policy on Notes?

What is up with that? This here lawyer type we keep posting too, isn't going to allow someone else to take notes about the case that they are working on? I mean, when SHE met with clients, SHE never took any notes? If not, then I know why she isn't a practising lawyer anymore......

I could see her 45 minutes with Steve ending up a back and forth about WHAT he might write down. And then, at the 44th minute, "lets get with the issue"

SadW: I remember clearly on my D-day, standing at my desk, my betrwyed Wife calling me, and I made a pledge to myself: "I WILL BE HONEST WITH HER WITH EVERYTHING FROM THIS POINT ON."

The lies worked well for me for many years. And threw my M into the dumper. Your operating the same way. And continue to do so.

You just posted that you manipulated your BH into discussing the affair. But ONLY, I am sure, that which YOU wished to discuss.

Breaking 40 years of bad behaviors and habits are tough. Going from the shelter of your lies to the brilliace of the sunshine of truth is very difficult. But it is the ONLY way to save yourself. This isn't about the marriage. This is about YOU. You need to get on the right side of truth, AND do it soon.

No one likes pain. But you have certainly spread around enough for many families. You don't want to recognize that, becasue then that means even more pain for YOU. Believe, the pain is less in the light. Truth DOES minimize your pain.

Along with everyone else's.

Make the call the Steve. He has done this before. Many TIMES. He has a plan. He has a process, that he can and WILL, follow, with you. Don't distract him because of your concern about NOTES, or RECORDINGS, or phone phobias. Your ONLY concern is to recieve HELP. And HOW TO SAVE YOUR MARRAIGE.

Don't worry about NOTES. Your concenr here is, and only, that someone will take what you say, and REMEMBER THEM. So you can not deny them later. Tell the truth. Then you never have to deny anything.

LG
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 02:54 PM
A few years ago, we were involved in a lawsuit which required the production of medical records, including the records of the MC we saw in 2002-3. Of course, I reviewed those records with our attorney. My H never read them. The contents of those records, which included notes from IC sessions with my H and me, were extremely damaging to me and in turn our M. I wish I had never seen them, but I did. I wish I could forget them, but I can't. I wish I had filed for D then, but I didn't. I wish I could trust the MC process again, but I'm not sure that is possible.

I was deposed and the language in those notes was used to discredit, humiliate and wound me. These were mental health professionals -- it never occurred to me to not be open with them, nor did it occur to me to be concerned about the accuracy of what they were righting down or their interpretation.

The notes caused me enormous, unnecessary pain. At home, we sought out a MC who doesn't take notes. My pdoc doesn't take notes. I review whatever my Mdocs write in the charts before I leave the office. You can scoff all you like because you have never been questioned under oath line by line about your medical records. It hurts.

What I said to my H was "what can I tell you or do that will help you?" I don't know how to be more open than that.

Despair is rearing its ugly head.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 03:10 PM
SadW:

I HAVE been deposed in the past. Not about my medical records, and if you were in a lawsuit, that allowed the production of your medical records, than it was RELEVENT to the case at hand.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

It is just a dodge to avoid what REALLY needs to happen. Which is a discussion with someone who has done this kind of counsuling before, and KNOWS how to address it.

Your husband COULD force the production of SH's notes in a D case.

But it all goes back to J/L's point. Your worried about the potential PAIN to you.

"IF I reveal the truth to SH, and he writes it down, it could come back to hurt ME."

The hurt is already there. His notes JUST MAY indicate a pattern of discovery in you, and a pattern of becoming a better person. Wouldn't that be nice?

And when you refer to this as manipulation: "What can I tell you or do that will help you?" you are seriously afraid of addressing ANYTHING.

That line should be the MB banner line to repairing a M scared by infidelity. You finally asked you BH what YOU could do. And then you two TALKED. And he learned something. And you gave something up. And it didn't HURT YOU.

Try that line again tonight.

And then listen.

LG




Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
A few years ago, we were involved in a lawsuit which required the production of medical records, including the records of the MC we saw in 2002-3. Of course, I reviewed those records with our attorney. My H never read them. The contents of those records, which included notes from IC sessions with my H and me, were extremely damaging to me and in turn our M. I wish I had never seen them, but I did. I wish I could forget them, but I can't. I wish I had filed for D then, but I didn't. I wish I could trust the MC process again, but I'm not sure that is possible.

I was deposed and the language in those notes was used to discredit, humiliate and wound me. These were mental health professionals -- it never occurred to me to not be open with them, nor did it occur to me to be concerned about the accuracy of what they were righting down or their interpretation.

The notes caused me enormous, unnecessary pain. At home, we sought out a MC who doesn't take notes. My pdoc doesn't take notes. I review whatever my Mdocs write in the charts before I leave the office. You can scoff all you like because you have never been questioned under oath line by line about your medical records. It hurts.

What I said to my H was "what can I tell you or do that will help you?" I don't know how to be more open than that.

Despair is rearing its ugly head.

At this point SW, all I can see is D if you do not just give this up. The past issues can be dealt with (although they will not be dealt with in the manner of most MC's) later but first you have to give yourself up and heal your poor betrayed H. Be honest, totally honest, it is all you have left. If you did not like what happened before then I would think that a person might have taken that into concern when thinking about having an affair. What is in the past is in the past for now. You need to immediately drop to your knees and begin to learn to be humble and open and honest.

BTW, I kinda doubt you will be able to control the session with Steve. I suppose you can always hang up but he will do his thing and it will be good and maybe then all of the things we are telling you will make sense. If there is a smack at all it will not be anything more than you finally getting it. He will do it all gently and with understanding, he has heard it all. He is a teacher, the best. He is nothing but kind and understanding. Just listen to him with an open heart and a quiet mind. Your grief, no matter where you think it is from, is most likely coming from knowing you put yourself right where you are. All of it is in your lap and if you would just listen and humble yourself you can take care of it but if you do not do it your H may tire of it all. Can you risk that and keep this up? Will you?

GM took it, everyone here who was a WS and had sessions with Steve took it and I don't think I have ever read a single bad thing about him from any of them so stop worrying and just do the call. You will be glad you did it.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
Your grief, no matter where you think it is from, is most likely coming from knowing you put yourself right where you are. All of it is in your lap and if you would just listen and humble yourself you can take care of it but if you do not do it your H may tire of it all. Can you risk that and keep this up? Will you?

saddestwife, this is par for the course. You will feel incredibly overwhelmed, but the best way to get through it is to humbly own your actions (see DWG's quote), head down, and keep moving forward.

I also agree about the control comments. It took me a looooong time to get off the hamster wheel of frenetic worrying, the anxiety, all obsessing over outcomes and decisions and people over whom I had no control. I can control my own decisions, commit to living a life of integrity, and learn from my mistakes.

You said you felt like you were getting conflicting advice. That, too, is par for where you are right now. And a lot of that has to do with relinquishing control, focusing on what's important in a healthy way, and humbly owning your decisions - past and present.

Other issues can be dealt with later. Right now, your M should be your number one priority. You bring up a lot of things that may seem intertwined with that, but if you keep the singular goal in sight (that of a healthy, fulfilled M), everything will follow from there. You will learn the tools and techniques (PORH, POJA, etc.) to support the M enough to deal with all of these other things eventually.

And FTR: Steve is great. Hope your call is going/has gone/goes well!
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 03:57 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^

MrsV said it better than I ever could. Both perspectives here, BS and WS. She has walked your walk, I have been on the other side. That applies to everyone here who is responding to you and the common thread in all of it is OWN what YOU did, start healing your H without thought for what will happen to YOU and the rest will follow. There is so much more after you get through the healing and everything you mention about your R with your H in the past will change. Your healing will happen but only if you rescue your H first. Really, you need to get on this right away. He may not be willing to wait for you to heal yourself first and he should not be. He needs to KNOW, really know, that you are in this for the long haul. The saying here is "whatever it takes for however long it takes". Can you put your concerns off that long? I hope so and he needs it to be so.

EDIT TO ADD... you owe him a healed mind and heart even if he leaves you.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 04:37 PM
The harsh reality is that I'm not willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. There are limits. Another glass of wine in my face or other public humiliation, and I'm gone. He may need to do that to heal, but I'm not willing to tolerate it. So I can't heal him without thought of what might happen to me.

So yes, I'm holding back, waiting for a blow up of epic proportions, although history tells me he gives very little warning. I've lived my life with him under threat level orange for years, and my limbic system has upped it to red.

I'm not asking him to do anything, I'm not talking to him about our past, I'm not insisting that he be polite, I'm not lying to him about the A, and I'm not telling him about my anxiety related to his past treatment of me as that smacks of rationalization.

I don't know where that leaves me -- no where good I suspect. I'm going to make the call to SteveH -- I don't see anything wrong with discussing the notes issue for a couple of minutes as hopefully he can alleviate my anxiety on that which will make it way easier for me to be brutally honest. I'll let him take the lead. I've given up.

BTW -- MC notes were not produced to the other side as the judge found them irrelevant. Lot of pain for nothing.

LG, I didn't try to manipulate the conversation about the A -- I just pressed him to open up about what was clearly on his mind.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:02 PM
Quote
The harsh reality is that I'm not willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. There are limits. Another glass of wine in my face or other public humiliation, and I'm gone. He may need to do that to heal, but I'm not willing to tolerate it. So I can't heal him without thought of what might happen to me.

So yes, I'm holding back, waiting for a blow up of epic proportions, although history tells me he gives very little warning. I've lived my life with him under threat level orange for years, and my limbic system has upped it to red.

This would have killed it for me. There is no way I could have recovered with that attitude.

Whatever works for you but I thought you might need to hear that. I don't think there are many here who would not agree with me. You broke it, drop your guard and take what comes and continue on as though his response did not happen. It is the only way he will ever trust that you are sincere. JMO.

His temper seems extreme but you KNEW that before you had your A. Did you think this would make that better? Does he physically hurt you? If so that cannot be tolerated but if it is only your pride you will recover or should be able to. Do you not think that perhaps you bought this anger?

I am sad for you.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I was deposed and the language in those notes was used to discredit, humiliate and wound me. These were mental health professionals -- it never occurred to me to not be open with them, nor did it occur to me to be concerned about the accuracy of what they were righting down or their interpretation.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
BTW -- MC notes were not produced to the other side as the judge found them irrelevant. Lot of pain for nothing.


Just for the record... if these records were not produced to the other side, how were they used against you in a deposition?

Nevermind.

Quote
The harsh reality is that I'm not willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes.


Nice counselor. So does this mean you're not talking to SH?
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:25 PM
This is none of my business, but are you also being treated for NPD?
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
A few years ago, we were involved in a lawsuit which required the production of medical records, including the records of the MC we saw in 2002-3. Of course, I reviewed those records with our attorney. My H never read them. The contents of those records, which included notes from IC sessions with my H and me, were extremely damaging to me and in turn our M. I wish I had never seen them, but I did. I wish I could forget them, but I can't. I wish I had filed for D then, but I didn't. I wish I could trust the MC process again, but I'm not sure that is possible.

I was deposed and the language in those notes was used to discredit, humiliate and wound me. These were mental health professionals -- it never occurred to me to not be open with them, nor did it occur to me to be concerned about the accuracy of what they were righting down or their interpretation.

The notes caused me enormous, unnecessary pain. At home, we sought out a MC who doesn't take notes. My pdoc doesn't take notes. I review whatever my Mdocs write in the charts before I leave the office. You can scoff all you like because you have never been questioned under oath line by line about your medical records. It hurts.

What I said to my H was "what can I tell you or do that will help you?" I don't know how to be more open than that.

Despair is rearing its ugly head.

It wasn't the notes that were damaging, it was what you said, your attitudes etc.

Counselor, stop trying to shift the blame. It wasn't the fault of the notes. It was the fault of the one presenting the thoughts, ideas and attitudes that were recorded that was the problem.

So don't blame the notes, blame the one about whom the notes were taken.

Don't blame others for your behaviors. Change the behaviors. If your past behaviors, if your past thoughts and ideas were damaging to the marriage, recording them in note form will not further damage your marriage. True, they may be used against you by someone who wants to leave the marriage. But the real question is why do they want to leave? I can tell you, it won't be because of the notes. It will be because of the content of those notes.

It was you and your behavior that will be recorded in any notes. If you are not willing to be open and honest, then what hope is there for any sort of marital recovery. Being open and honest includes having a well documented case for Steve Harley to work.

So please don't blame the notes for any past problems, it wasn't the fault of the notes. Further, don't blame note taking on any unwillingness to work with a counselor. Those notes will not make your marriage any worse. But not allowing Steve Harley or any MC to take notes may make it impossible to recover the marriage.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 06:02 PM
saddest,

Let me answer this for you.
Quote
I'm seriously confused. On the one hand, I am responsible for allowing my H to treat me the way he has in the past, but on the other hand, my wanting to ensure that he doesn't treat me that way in the future is also wrong because I am trying to control his recovery. That makes me want to cry and throw up and run away.
And here in lies the problem. You are not separating what you should do, from what you should allow your H to do.

You should protect your boundaries after first stating what they are to your H. That is not controlling your H, that is protecting your boundaries. How your H recovers and the information he needs is for him to determine. You are trying to control this rather than protect your boundaries.

You seem to have blurred these two things...they are not the same. You most definitely should not allow him to badly treat you.

As for SH, I doubt that he will beat you up. From everything I have heard that is not his style. What you should do is allow him to lead the session and for you to be HONEST with him, rather than lie and try and control the interaction. The man is a PRO and very successfull at this, but he is only as good as the data he receives. You should have no fear of talking to him as his goal is the same as here. To get you and your H to have a good and successful marriage that makes you both happy.

It really is the goal of the posters here to get you there, but SH is really a PRO at this. Listen to him and follow his lead. He isn't perfect, no is, but he is good.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 06:05 PM
I don't have NPD. I've asked my pdoc. I went off my AD meds in march and started the A which is why the brain chemical thing makes sense to me.

Pdoc and mdoc, including gynocology, notes were produced. Knowing that a bunch of strange men are reading ones gynocologists notes is invasive and humiliating. Possibly that is one thing with which the women can agree.

I'm getting conflicting advice from the forum, the books and my pdoc. I'm hoping SteveH will helpe sort it out and come up with a plan.

I'm sad for me too but I'm sadder for my H and my kids. H really wants to stay married, but I cannot or will not endure any more public humiliation nor can I get my anxiety level down by sheer force of will. What a waste.

A path that requires me to endure another glass of wine in my face if that is what it takes for h to heal is too narrow for me.

I'll see what Steve says but if that is really what is required, I need to go on and file.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 07:01 PM
The very best advice you will get is from Steve. Take what he says. Leave what we say if his advice conflicts and tell us what he said you need to do. That will certainly help shape the forum for you. He is really the best. Your feelings will change after you speak with him. Listen Listen Listen and then think about what he has said.

I knocked heads with him and stopped my sessions. He made me mad, oh boo hoo me right? He was right, I knew he was right but it made me angry. So do better than that OK? It took me about 6 months to figure out that he was exactly right and that was 6 months of almost wasted time.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 10:06 PM
I spoke to SteveH. No knocking heads at all. He was lovely -- stayed with me through numerous dropped calls --something's wrong with my phone -- and spent way more time than he had to.

I have a plan.

I'm going to take a break from the subject both with my H and in my brain (hopefully) for a few days -- I'm worn out and my emotional fatigue is not helping.

I'm also going to stay off the forum. I get so upset when I say things like I manipulated my H into talking about the A and that is heard as me manipulating the conversation to keep me from getting hurt which wasn't at all the case, and then I get scared and then I panic and then I despair and none of that helps.

Thank you all. I am sincerely grateful.

Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 10:25 PM
Glad your talk w/ Steve went well. Find peace in your "time off," and come back (eventually) to keep us updated. Despite the 2x4s and the heavy knocks you've taken, we all want your M to succeed.

hug


Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 10:49 PM
Hi SW,

I have posted to a few others this afernoon, and since your posts keep popping up I also was going to post to you too. So I am now.

I was actually going to recommend that you take a break from the forum here. That is because I feel that women more than men become too sometimes too overloaded with emotions and then tend to clam up emotionally as well as conversation wise.

While I did not agree with your stance from a few of your posts from the last few days, I just want to say I laud you for having the courage and fortitude to even to get to this point of knowing what you need to do. In my short time here I have seen too many BS's esp the BH's appear and then leave.

Take your time, for you, your H, your kids, and your M/

Best regards,

Tom
Posted By: Lady_Clueless Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 10:54 PM
Tom, she does not need to take a break from the forum. She is desperately in need of honest help, and that is what she is getting here.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 11:03 PM
Lady C,

Yea you are probably more right than I am. I was just thinking of my W in our own personal life, and me from a month or so ago. This is a great support, but each person has to really decide when they are ready is all I meant, but thanks.

Tom
Posted By: Lady_Clueless Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/28/10 11:10 PM
Well, Tom, I went back and read more, and I think it will be OK for SW to take a couple of days away from posting...and I hope she will be using that time to go over the things that she and Steve talked about and really think about how her own behaviors contribute to her problems.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 03:27 AM
This is a post to all the WS�s who are resisting talking to SteveH or wondering whether they should make the call themselves. On the forum, I see mostly WW�s resisting but maybe that is episodic.

Just. Do. It.

You don�t want to talk to him because you think you know what he is going to say and you don�t want to hear it.

*You don�t have a clue what he is going to say and you DO want to hear it.

Your situation is hopeless. You are so entangled you can�t breathe.

*He wants to help you release yourself from your purgatory and send you to the marriage you want and deserve.

It�s too much trouble and too much money.

*It�s an hour of your life and a couple of hundred dollars. If you think that�s a lot of money, check out the hourly rate for a decent lawyer or therapist.

Your M may end and you may build a beautiful life with your AP. It is statistically less likely than winning the mega lottery, but it happens.

But don�t go out with a �what if�, particularly if you have kids, because that �what if� will haunt you the rest of your natural life, at every school play, at graduations, at weddings, and the birth of your grandchildren and family funerals and you and your BS will be at every one of those events and you will wonder �what if�.

It�s an hour of your life. JDI (if that isn�t an acronym here, it should be).

Steve wants to help you release yourself from the purgatory of your affair and send you to the M you want and deserve.

You are safe talking to him.

He isn�t going to beat you up.

He isn�t going to lecture you or dictate to you.

You are safe talking to him.

You matter.

You do.

Without you, there is no M.

Make the call and listen. It�s only an hour.

And if you find I am wrong, please come to my thread and beat me up � I�m used to it ��.

I�m posting this on my thread because if there is wisdom and healing in it, it will spread from camp fire to camp fire and if not, it needs to stay here.

WAY too much time studying the Old Testament I think,�..



Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 04:11 AM
I am very happy you were able to talk with Steve. He is wonderful. Spread the word, you are not alone, we all do it smile.

You sound so much better already. I really do think you are going to do this, always have even though it has been really rough and very iffy at times. You are tough and smart. Both of those can get you in trouble if you do not use them correctly but now that you have Steve and a plan you are ready.

I am not so sad for you now smile
Posted By: SDCW_man Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
This is a post to all the WS�s who are resisting talking to SteveH or wondering whether they should make the call themselves. On the forum, I see mostly WW�s resisting but maybe that is episodic.

Just. Do. It.

You don�t want to talk to him because you think you know what he is going to say and you don�t want to hear it.

*You don�t have a clue what he is going to say and you DO want to hear it.

Your situation is hopeless. You are so entangled you can�t breathe.

*He wants to help you release yourself from your purgatory and send you to the marriage you want and deserve.

It�s too much trouble and too much money.

*It�s an hour of your life and a couple of hundred dollars. If you think that�s a lot of money, check out the hourly rate for a decent lawyer or therapist.

Your M may end and you may build a beautiful life with your AP. It is statistically less likely than winning the mega lottery, but it happens.

But don�t go out with a �what if�, particularly if you have kids, because that �what if� will haunt you the rest of your natural life, at every school play, at graduations, at weddings, and the birth of your grandchildren and family funerals and you and your BS will be at every one of those events and you will wonder �what if�.

It�s an hour of your life. JDI (if that isn�t an acronym here, it should be).

Steve wants to help you release yourself from the purgatory of your affair and send you to the M you want and deserve.

You are safe talking to him.

He isn�t going to beat you up.

He isn�t going to lecture you or dictate to you.

You are safe talking to him.

You matter.

You do.

Without you, there is no M.

Make the call and listen. It�s only an hour.

And if you find I am wrong, please come to my thread and beat me up � I�m used to it ��.

I�m posting this on my thread because if there is wisdom and healing in it, it will spread from camp fire to camp fire and if not, it needs to stay here.

WAY too much time studying the Old Testament I think,�..

SW,

Wow...I'm sincerely impressed! I'm so glad you didn't bury you head in the sand and choose to talk to SH instead. Excellent work thus far...

Is is possible that we may have a WW here who is really "getting it" and truly recovering??? I hope so...

Best wishes and keep moving forwrd
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 07:31 AM
S_w

Well done for sticking it out here. I think a break from the board would be good right now to give you time and chance to consolidate and work out more of what you are about.


The forums can at times concentrate your attention on the negative. The negative about the situation and about you which can be catalytic). Sometimes it is good just to be and practice looking forward and focus on where you want to be and as Queenie taught me, always to be thankful and grateful for what we do have.

You are a good person - you just did a bad thing (just like we all do).

I hope you guys move forwards smoothly.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by SDCW_man
Originally Posted by saddestwife
This is a post to all the WS�s who are resisting talking to SteveH or wondering whether they should make the call themselves. On the forum, I see mostly WW�s resisting but maybe that is episodic.

Just. Do. It.

You don�t want to talk to him because you think you know what he is going to say and you don�t want to hear it.

*You don�t have a clue what he is going to say and you DO want to hear it.

Your situation is hopeless. You are so entangled you can�t breathe.

*He wants to help you release yourself from your purgatory and send you to the marriage you want and deserve.

It�s too much trouble and too much money.

*It�s an hour of your life and a couple of hundred dollars. If you think that�s a lot of money, check out the hourly rate for a decent lawyer or therapist.

Your M may end and you may build a beautiful life with your AP. It is statistically less likely than winning the mega lottery, but it happens.

But don�t go out with a �what if�, particularly if you have kids, because that �what if� will haunt you the rest of your natural life, at every school play, at graduations, at weddings, and the birth of your grandchildren and family funerals and you and your BS will be at every one of those events and you will wonder �what if�.

It�s an hour of your life. JDI (if that isn�t an acronym here, it should be).

Steve wants to help you release yourself from the purgatory of your affair and send you to the M you want and deserve.

You are safe talking to him.

He isn�t going to beat you up.

He isn�t going to lecture you or dictate to you.

You are safe talking to him.

You matter.

You do.

Without you, there is no M.

Make the call and listen. It�s only an hour.

And if you find I am wrong, please come to my thread and beat me up � I�m used to it ��.

I�m posting this on my thread because if there is wisdom and healing in it, it will spread from camp fire to camp fire and if not, it needs to stay here.

WAY too much time studying the Old Testament I think,�..

SW,

Wow...I'm sincerely impressed! I'm so glad you didn't bury you head in the sand and choose to talk to SH instead. Excellent work thus far...

Is is possible that we may have a WW here who is really "getting it" and truly recovering??? I hope so...

Best wishes and keep moving forward

SadW:

I have been hard on you, but I have been in your shoes... Even worse.

But I got the MB Religion. Your getting it. I am glad that you called SH.

Maybe Pepperband can put this on her "notable Posts" thread.


Keep working it.

LG
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 09:07 PM
OK, I said I wasn't going to post but something's come up that is driving me around the bend.

My H has changed the password on his laptop and won't tell me what it is. He says its because the day we decided to D, I went on his laptop and deleted the prior month's emails between he and I -- there are a lot of intimate things about me in them (not about A -- just about me) and no way was I going to let anyone read them, collaborative divorce or not.

I know lawyers.

I haven't emailed him anything like that since (and won't).

I'm not suspicious of him or anything. I just can't figure out why -- it feels like game playing which I would find troubling only because we have enough problems without creating more. Or maybe retaliation -- "you lost your right to secrets, but I didn't."

I'm trying to be O & H and don't know whether I should leave this alone. I don't really care about being able to access his laptop -- I have my own. But still ....
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 09:28 PM
Quote
I'm trying to be O & H and don't know whether I should leave this alone. I don't really care about being able to access his laptop -- I have my own. But still ....


Drop it for now. YOU'RE the one who is learning to practice MB methods.
Posted By: Nomdeplume Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 09:31 PM
You went into his private email account and deleted messages!

You can't seriously be asking this question!
Posted By: Gamma Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 09:50 PM
Would changing your password be equivalent to his having an affair if the tables were turned?

One thing I sense about your H is that if OM had given you AIDS, your H would have stayed with you to the end. He sounds like an endless loyal man, who has to learn not to treat other people as his possessions.

God Bless
Gamma

Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 09:53 PM
Quote
My H has changed the password on his laptop and won't tell me what it is.


By the way, how do you know this, seeing how you really don't care about having access and you have your own and all?
Posted By: Nomdeplume Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 10:12 PM
What stands out to me... you make no apology for hijacking his email account and deleting whatever emails took your fancy!

I can hear you screaming for blood if he�d done that to you!

What a self-absorbed woman you are.


Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 10:52 PM
Of course I apologized. Don't be ridiculous. I told him at the time - a month ago - that I had done it and why.

Look, he had just told me he had decided to divorce me, period. We had finished discussing property division, talked about custody for our remaining minor child and arranged that I would call the lawyer in hopes we could keep the legal fees down. At that point, I was protecting myself.

I needed something off his laptop. He was right there. I thought I had forgotten the password, but when I asked he said he'd changed it etc.

I don't get the changing password/affair equivalency analogy at all. There's nothing wrong with him changing his password, any more than there would be anything wrong with me changing mine which I'm not going to do so don't get agitated.

He has done something similar to me, and I did scream for blood, but I believe he won't do it again.

I was just wondering why and since it is troubling me I was thinking about asking him. I'm going to table it - I'm the one practicing MB concepts.

I need to stay off the forum because I get so upset when I read replies that feel vicious like "self absorbed woman" and I just want to give up then I got the exact right answer for the exact right reason from princessmeggy.

Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
OK, I said I wasn't going to post but something's come up that is driving me around the bend.

My H has changed the password on his laptop and won't tell me what it is. He says its because the day we decided to D, I went on his laptop and deleted the prior month's emails between he and I -- there are a lot of intimate things about me in them (not about A -- just about me) and no way was I going to let anyone read them, collaborative divorce or not.

I know lawyers.

I haven't emailed him anything like that since (and won't).

I'm not suspicious of him or anything. I just can't figure out why -- it feels like game playing which I would find troubling only because we have enough problems without creating more. Or maybe retaliation -- "you lost your right to secrets, but I didn't."

I'm trying to be O & H and don't know whether I should leave this alone. I don't really care about being able to access his laptop -- I have my own. But still ....
Saddest, I like you. grin Because it's so easy to post to you when you keep banging your head against the same brick wall!

I refer you to a July 25 post on your thread:

... Quit keeping score.

Your H may not be willing to do this right away. Eventually, for you to have a fulfilling marriage, you will need him to do so. But for NOW, you must make the first step.

Yep, unilateral disarmament. That's the humility of which you were advised on your first day here. The viewpoint of "No matter what he's done to me in the past, what I've done is plenty bad enough to warrant my full attention to fixing." Persistently & patiently, even though there's not a guaranteed outcome as far as his reciprocating is concerned. That's the "gratuitous act of trust" which you need to commit...


Read it again.

twoxfour
twoxfour
twoxfour
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 11:28 PM
Hi sw,

Just signed on and quite frankly I am sort of astounded that you are posting so soon. Not that that is bad or in anyway negative - it just sounded really like you needed a break (retreat, sabbatical, or whatever you wanted to call it) to recharge and to think. That is because I just felt that you are letting this get Too emotional for You, and just needed some back-off time. In this sense I feel that some things (like the changed password) become more magnified to you, that is all. And, I certainly do not view you as 'self-absorbed'. Frankly you have stuck this out in your search, and again I commend you for that. Best way I can describe my feeling that you should have a break to think, meditate, and read more here is my recent decision to get back into shape. Simple exercises really - pushups, situps, chinups, etc., etc. Pushups are the hardest. First and second days great! Third and fourth days good. Fifth day, not as motivated but do them anyway. Sixth and Seventh days struggle. Then eighth day a veritable struggle and feeling like giving up because I could not even match the day 3 amount! I.e., I decided to take a day off after four days rather than really push it in the beginning. If I hadn't, I would have abandoned that part of my medical makeover program. I was in h.s. and college sports and coaches always provided a day of relief. Guess at age 68 I thought that I was superman.

Well, hope you see my point - the more you react here if you feel under undue stress, you are going to get some negative comments, and eventually become discouraged from continuing. Just my thoughts.

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/29/10 11:32 PM
sw,

By way, and am sure you already recognize this, taking time off does not mean taking time off from working on your M and working on what you feel is best for you and H. It just means taking time off from the temptation and the reality of placing yourself into argumentative postions and using up your valuable energy on that. Okay.

Tom
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/30/10 12:12 AM
Saddest,

I am sort of at a loss about this. Here is why. I guess we have been around here long enough to know that it often takes people time to process what has happened to them, and yes the consequences of their decisions. I am not surprised he did this, he knows he is not safe. You have said here many times in the last few days that you feel like walking. He knows you went off and found another man.

As he processes things, ideas (good and bad) will come to him and he will act on them. You said
Quote
Of course I apologized. Don't be ridiculous. I told him at the time - a month ago - that I had done it and why.
Yup, what did you tell him? That you don't trust him? That you don't want him to have what you said? That you had the right to do what you want to his computer? What did you tell him Saddest?

He is protecting himself because he knows you have lied, you have cheated and that you don't really too much about honesty. You have said these things to us. He cannot predict what you can do or will do now. In short you have lost his trust and the consequences of this is that he is protecting himself.

Now if this really bothers you, then you and your H need to sit down and discuss how he can begin to trust you again. How your own lack of trust in him has harmed the relationship. But, frankly, given what you have done in the past I would have changed the password as well.

Saddest, are you starting to see why lack of honesty really hurts a marriage? No matter if you told him or not, you failed to tell him about many other things that have hurt him deeply. Hence, we preach open and honesty to you. It really is the only way to go.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/30/10 04:07 AM
JL -- I have answers to your questions -- but for now I have my answer. My H isn't saying he doesn't trust me with access to his laptop. He's telling me he doesn't trust me, period. The password thing was puzzle to me, and I love puzzles. ALL information about H's thinking is good information -- I'm reading the tea leaves here.

Tom, I sometimes think men are like anthropologists when it comes to understanding women, a foreign species. They can research about the foreign species all they like, but there is simply no substitute for on the ground, close quarters observation for 40 years. Some men live with a woman for 40 years and don�t observe much � you are clearly not one of them. So you absolutely nailed me, and I am humbly taking your sage advice and taking a break from thinking about this for a few days.

GloveOil -- I'm chewing on it.

Posted By: SDCW_man Re: I ended it -- now what? - 07/31/10 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Nomdeplume
You went into his private email account and deleted messages!

You can't seriously be asking this question!

While married, my wife & I really had no such "privacy". Yes, we had separate email addresses but they were under the same ISP and shared a single password. Prior to the affair, neither of us used email all that much and our respective inboxes contained little but work stuff, jokes from friends/relatives, and (mutual) travel/airline itineraries. Either of us could "check" the other's inbox but rarely did so because there wasn�t anything �secret� to see.

Shared password OR Single joint email account = TRANSPARENCY & �OPEN BOOK� & �NOTHING TO HIDE�

In other words, a TRUE MARITAL PARTNERSHIP

That changed when the marital �crisis� began and with my then-WW�s still-clandestine affair that preceded it. [Of course, she denied that it did even when �out-ed� and to this day still confabulates and makes typical foggy bulls**t excuses to cover that nasty little fact up. One wonders why, since the timeline and history of her adultery has long ago become common knowledge to virtually everyone and I was basically �the last to know�. Thus, the insanity and self-delusion of waywards�]

I much later found out that then-secret-WW had logged on to my email account and deleted email from OMW meant to expose to me the affair which I had been suspicious of but naively was still believing WW�s denials of. She also used our computer/MSMoney program (which of course she had full access to) to obtain all our up-to-date financial info so she could plan �her 50%� of all we had built together economically. WW later bragged about how stealthy and strategic and successful she had been in keeping me in the dark this way (and others) to many of those around her, including a �good friend� who also was a friend of OMW and has long ago thrown xWW/OM out of her life.

Something about this was particularly violating to me when I first learned of all of it back in 2008. It was almost like�having an affair was horrific enough but the two-faced, back-stabbing, conniving, scheming, plotting, deceit, and manipulation utilized to CYA and finance it was EVEN WORSE. It really was this stuff (including the satisfaction and glee WW displayed towards others with regard to her betrayal & deceptiveness) that destroyed the last residual flickers of all the honor, value, trust, comfort, love, and respect I had had for her for over a decade.

In this day and age, with the profusion of communication technology immediately and cheaply available, it has become so much easier to initiate and maintain a secret adulterous affair than it ever was before. People have cellphones, email addresses, Facebook/Twitter accounts, etc�.and often several of each (they are at least VERY OBTAINABLE). Affordable technology has been a boon to productivity and legitimate communication but, like Frankenstein�s monster, can also be misused for vile, deceptive, and dark purposes.

NO MARRIED PERSON SHOULD BE ON FACEBOOK OR TWITTER OR MYLIFE OR MYSPACE OR HAVE SECRET PASSWORDS OR �PRIVATE� CELLPHONES. There is no legitimate need for a married man/woman to have �social networking� or private communications or secret finances from his/her spouse�at least no need that justifies the obvious risks that are involved. These avenues, esp. the social networking sites, are virtual invitations to inappropriate extra-marital relationships and they frankly advertise �See who is looking for you!� & �Reconnect with former classmates, colleagues, friends, and lost loves!� These things are for SINGLE PEOPLE ONLY.

Ok, I�m off my soapbox now�.

Saddestwife, your BH had an email account that you obviously were voluntarily privy to via a shared password. Therein you found NOTHING incriminating that he was �hiding� from you. You only found intimate messages from YOU that he must have valued enough to save. Those things may very well have been �private� from others but they were certainly not private BETWEEN you two. That is the very essence of an intimate marriage��our intimate communications are for our eyes only� but there is transparency between the partners.

I suspect that your BH, like me in the past, was even further violated by what can only be described as SELFISHLY MOTIVATED ADVERSARIAL actions on your part. You were afraid that somehow he might use your private marital emails to him to embarrass you in court in a divorce proceeding. Of course, those thoughts could never even have entered his head until you brought a 3rd-party into a place mutually reserved for only 2. The big picture here is that your adultery and deceit and cover-up has converted what once was a cooperative intimate partnership into an ADVERSARIAL & SUSPICIOUS RELATIONSHIP.

Your BH has understandably gone into self-protection & individual-defense mode. I�m sure he is extremely hurt and changed his password, not because he has much to �hide� there, but simply because he feels justifiably wounded and unwilling to trust you at all. You have betrayed and lied to him about the most fundamental element of intimacy. Frankly, I wouldn�t bring up his new password one bit. He has every right to protect himself (even in this minor way) from any further emotional trauma and you have WAY BIGGER FISH TO FRY if you want to recover intimacy with him.

MB & SAA teach us that recovering waywards (no recovery is possible without these):
Should be transparent, open, honest, and meet the BS�s ENs full while expecting little-to-nothing in return for some time.
Should not demand the BS to �get over it� or �sweep it all under the rug�.
Should not use the BS�s past failings, shortcomings, and mistakes to justify their own (far more devastating) betrayal.
Should EARN back respect and trust slowly with consistent, repentant words and deeds.
Should empathize with the BS�s wounded state and restore him/her FIRST.

I would start there and not worry about a password�that is the least of your concerns and duties at present. twoxfourQUIT KEEPING SCORE AND FOCUS ON WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE. Stop being a lawyer trying to �win�; just GIVE first.
Posted By: SDCW_man Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/01/10 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by GloveOil
Saddest, I like you. grin Because it's so easy to post to you when you keep banging your head against the same brick wall!

I refer you to a July 25 post on your thread:

... Quit keeping score.

Your H may not be willing to do this right away. Eventually, for you to have a fulfilling marriage, you will need him to do so. But for NOW, you must make the first step.

Yep, unilateral disarmament. That's the humility of which you were advised on your first day here. The viewpoint of "No matter what he's done to me in the past, what I've done is plenty bad enough to warrant my full attention to fixing." Persistently & patiently, even though there's not a guaranteed outcome as far as his reciprocating is concerned. That's the "gratuitous act of trust" which you need to commit...


Read it again.

Spot on, GloveOil!
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/01/10 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by SDCW_man
NO MARRIED PERSON SHOULD BE ON FACEBOOK

I do have a FB which I set up a few months ago to get pictures of my kids. I did have a male friend from college, fraternity brother of H, who was divorcing his W who was a close friend in college contact me -- his intentions were, in retrospect, clear but I found the whole notion so absurd I tossed it off. But after reading this site for a while (long before I ever posted) I told my H about it, it bothered H who saw what was going through the friend's mind right off, and asked me to drop him which I did. So you are right -- I'll keep my FB account as I do enjoy seeing what my kids and their friends are up to, but I am not accepting any friend requests from males, regardless of how benign they seem to me.

Originally Posted by SCDW_man
Therein you found NOTHING incriminating that he was �hiding� from you.

I am big on privacy to put it mildly -- I have never pried into his email or his phone, nor do I think there was anything to find.

Originally Posted by SCDW_man
You only found intimate messages from YOU that he must have valued enough to save.

When I deleted the emails, we had just finished a long conversation about divorcing. It was DD3.

DD1. H read my text messages and learns of OM. I deny scope of engagement.
DD2 (one week later) H read my text messages with my friend on her phone, and learns it was a PA, leaves for 3 weeks, then comes back for S19's high school graduation for a week, then I leave for a month.
DD3 (late June) H asks me if I am still in contact with OM, and I say yes. ALL he wanted was for me to say I would end it. I couldn't say it because I KNEW I was totally out of control -- TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL -- and I wasn't going to lie because I had no clue what I was going to do. H says divorce, I say OK, we talked about details for 5 hours, then made the sweetest love we have made in 35 years. It was surreal. I think I will look back on it, regardless of outcome, as one of the strangest days of my life.
A Ended: July 8.
DD4: yet to come.

The emails I deleted were all from the months we were separated. And I was really only after one, but I had no idea which one it was so I deleted them all.

The one was an email I sent him listing the things I felt the most shame about in my whole life, those moments that still make my skin crawl. Like when I started a new school in 7th grade and the "popular girls" came up to me and I thought they wanted to be my friend, but it turned out that I had started my first period, not even knowing what a period was, and the blood was showing. And that one is a big nothing compared to the rest. There was no way in hell I was EVER going to allow anyone else to read that -- sure the lawyer part of me kicked in and thought "how could this be used against me". But the lawyer part was a dim voice compared to the panic I felt that that my kids or my family or ANYONE on the planet might ever know those things. No one beside my H was ever going to read those things. It was stuff I have never told a living soul.

Shame on me for putting in in writing, but I would delete again in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by SCDW_man
The big picture here is that your adultery and deceit and cover-up has converted what once was a cooperative intimate partnership into an ADVERSARIAL & SUSPICIOUS RELATIONSHIP.

There was no intimate partnership. There was an armed camp. My A took an adversarial relationship and put it in hyperdrive.

I've dropped the password thing -- I don't care about having the password. I just wondered what it meant, and I knew the reason he was giving me wasn't the real reason, i.e., he isn't worried I am going to get on his laptop and delete stuff. He doesn't trust me in any area of life. I can work with that. I can't work with not understanding what is going through his head.

Sooo. Conversation tonight. I think I screwed up. Got on the subject of divorce where he said "if you divorce me" and I said "don't you mean if you divorce me?" H replied he would only do that if I strayed again, and I responded "and rightly so." H said what I should have said was "I will never do that again as I love you so much." I'm trying so hard but the right words elude me, maybe because there are no right words.

On the bright side, he said he had "only" thought about the A 4-5 times today, and I said "when it comes in your mind, think about whether there is anything I can do or say to help you with it, and come to me because I can't know what you are thinking." I THINK that was the right thing to say, but I am sure you will tell me if I am wrong.

On my front, I was a Stepford Wife (heavens, there are probably people on this forum who don't even know what that means), then I was a Stepford Wife having an A, and now I am a Stepford Wife on steroids trying to fix it but it feels like fixing it means returning to the status quo ante. There is a lot of talk about being O and H but I am NOT being O and H AT ALL. I'm back into the familiar territory of taking care of H without saying what I need and it is wearing me out. I think this is a problem without a solution.

I am going to talk to SHarley again this week before I ask my H to talk to him -- I see some windows where I MAY be able to get away for an hour for that talk. But I have to fix my cell phone issue or find a land line.

I I am not talking to any friends or family members and the isolation with just talking to/being with H 24/7 without asking for or expecting anything is wearing me down. I'm was emotionally scared of H before I had the A, and I'm still scared. If anyone has any thoughts on how I might recharge, please chime in.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/01/10 05:13 PM
SW, believe me. I understand what you are saying. There is no way for a wayward to not feel what you are feeling, because if you are like me, you have been looking out for #1 all your life. You probably would not have achieved what you have achieved in the professional world without focusing on #1. It is absolutely patterned in you, and it shows in everything you write. That kind of thinking is also reinforced, not only by professional and financial success, but by every subtle message force fed to us about self, the cult of self, that is part of the mythology that drives our consumer society since you were old enough to look at a television set. But here is the truth: Your addiction to taking care of your own needs is your enemy in the world of relationships, marriage, and all of the real things that define our lives and make life worth living. When you are on your deathbed, are you going to remember the great lawsuit that you won, or the terrific report you filed, or are you going to remember the smile of your child or the incredible sunset that overwhelmed you on numerous occasions? Our emotional life is where we really reside and what drives us and makes life worth living.

You have inflicted a near mortal wound on your H, in the course of this cold war you two have been fighting, and he is gashed and bleeding. He is wounded, possibly mortally, and it will take a prolonged period of healing for him to survive, and even then, he will be left with a scar that will be partially disabling, but that he can, if sufficiently motivated (by you), learn to ignore most of the time. He may not be safely scarred in for at least two years, before you can even begin to start thinking about your taker. The catch-22 is that the MB principles that are proven successful cannot really be applied in the case of the wayward's needs for an indeterminate period, at least until there is sufficient scar. If you want to help your H and save your marriage, you will have to understand this. Lord knows, it is NOT EASY. It is excruciating, but still pales in comparison to the pain he is experiencing, whether or not he is honest about that pain totally or not right now. You have to remember that a marriage is not really two individuals somehow "working it out". It is a single entity, in which the needs of the one are subservient to the needs of the whole, until death do you part. You are simply going to have to learn to experience and hold in your own pain, to sacrifice your needs for some indeterminate healing period, without regard or thought to whose share of "fault" anything that went before was. When it gets to be too much, just be honest and say you are needing some alone time, and go into another room and meditate on these things, read part of a book, take a few deep breaths, and then go back and renew your efforts.

You inflicted a near mortal wound. You did it. You own it. Commit yourself to the sacrifice needed to get him to the point where you can both also look at "her needs" to complete the equation. Regardless of what Dr. Harley says, I believe that is the truth. If you cannot emotionally commit to that, or even by reasoning and cerebral will commit to that, then you are not going to succeed. And remember, that if you can do this, it still may not succeed. He may not be able to heal sufficiently. But regardless of that, you will go back into the world a more complete person, more able to be a partner in a healthy relationship.

I hope this helps. I am in the midst of my own struggle to deal with these issues myself. The pain and damage I inflicted were far greater than your own. I am still emotionally struggling mightily to deal with the same reality you are. That gives me less experience to advise you than most of the very wise people here in most ways, but possibly some ability to advise you that you can relate to more at this stage. Really, SW. This ball is in your court totally. Are you up to it?
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/02/10 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
THX GM. THX everyone actually. All this input is really helping me clarify.
Originally Posted by GreenMile
you have been looking out for #1 all your life.

The end result is the same, but my problem is the reverse -- I have been looking out for everyone but me. I've been in IC for years trying to bring my Giver and Taker into balance.

When I first got married I read somewhere that you should give 100% to the M regardless of what your partner was giving, and I ran with that. No sacrifice was beyond me. "Sure honey, go hunting for 4 days and leave me at home with 3 small children after working 60 hours this week." And don't jump on me for keeping score. It's just an example.

I got mad, then I got numb, then I got naked.

Originally Posted by Greenmile
You are simply going to have to learn to experience and hold in your own pain, to sacrifice your needs for some indeterminate healing period, without regard or thought to whose share of "fault" anything that went before was. When it gets to be too much, just be honest and say you are needing some alone time, and go into another room and meditate on these things, read part of a book, take a few deep breaths, and then go back and renew your efforts.

The 24/7 thing is too much. I had the second panic attack of my whole life yesterday afternoon -- whole shebang, pounding heart, shaking, tingling fingertips. I have to get away from him for a few hours. I don't have an agenda. I just need to breathe.

I liked it way better back when I didn't have any needs, or at least any needs that I knew of. Actually, the only need I have right now is the need to not be scared. I liked it way better when I hadn't done anything more wrong than plant shade flowers in the sun or buy paper towels in bulk at Costco.

Originally Posted by Greenmile
Are you up to it?

It's looking doubtful. I don't think I can do this for two more months. Two years is out of the question.

I don't think I can unilaterally disarm even if I wanted to, and I don't want to. It's too dangerous. My pre - A fear of him was well founded. My defenses were built for very legitimate reasons.

I'm really depressed and this is about the last place a discouraged WW should come. I think being berated when I am depressed and discouraged feels normal to me. H knows something is wrong but he doesn't know what, and it is making him nervous. I don't know how to articulate the despair so I am pretending I'm fine but I am not fine and he knows it and the fact that he knows it means I am losing my touch and that makes me panic too and I have got to get a grip.

I thought I was going to be able to talk to SteveH tomorrow, but that window closed. The program doesn't seem adaptive to implementation from the WS's side. I am jealous of all that WW's whose BH's are Plan A'ing them. Some vision that things could be different someday would give me some hope. Right now, all I see is the prospect of more years of lying, lying, lying about what I am thinking and needing. I am beyond sick of lying. So I've pretty much shut up. Again.

I'm hoping to return to numb in the very near future. Numb was good, or at least better than this. My S19 is coming with his GF and he can look at me and tell in an instant that something is wrong so I have GOT to get a grip. And my MIL is coming tomorrow with H's married sister and her longtime BF (yes, you read that right.)

The fun never stops.

I am eyeing the opening day of dove season hungrily.



skeptical You're a great writer, too bad it's all BS.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/02/10 06:02 PM
I thought I'd leave you with a few thoughts but I think it sounds more like a broken record at this point.

YOU can CHOOSE to be honest or you can CHOOSE to be a liar. Your choice. You can blame it on years of having built up this or that because of psychological and emotional this and that. Or you can start living today being honest in all things.

You do not have to tolerate unhealthy treatment of others to you. And you can also stop tolerating yourself to treat others badly.

Readlly it's up to you whether you want it or not. And all this long, sweeping introspective waxing poetic sounds nice. But really it's not that difficult.

You are no more mistreated than many of the others on here. And you repay others by mistreating them. So, it's up to you, make the changes to make you a better person and a better relationship. Or continue to wallow in self misery.

Good luck to you. I'm out.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/02/10 07:27 PM
You are jealous of the WW's whose BH's are Plan Aing them? Really? Did you ever stop for one tiny moment and think how that sounds? Did you ever stop to think for one tiny moment the torture that is for the spouse who is left with a cheater for a spouse? You are jealous?

So you are scared. We are all or have all been scared. I am getting close to 2 years of this and I am still terrified every time he does something nice because he might be hiding something else or every time he doesn't because he might be cheating once again. Another will kill me. We are all scared so don't talk to us like you are the only one who is experiencing such pain and discomfort.

I think you are not going to do it. I think you get it but I think you would rather leave devastation in your wake than make things right. There are people who do those kinds of things, GM was once one of them. I think this thread is now triggering me too hard and I will stay out of it. I feel so terribly sorry for your BH and you know what? I feel sad for you. Still, once again I feel sad for you. This is all such a no brainer that you with all your intellegence can easily get it but you just simply cannot or will not do it.
Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 12:40 PM
**edit**
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
[quote=saddestwife]I know I am not to empathize with you as it gives you a moment to be free of guilt...which, of course, you should be suffocating under at this point.
............

What you did was wrong, your feelings that you had/have for OM is wrong...you have acknowledged that. You have apologized for that. You cannot undue it. DO NOT let anyone lie to you that you have to spend the rest of your life beating yourself to a bloody pulp over it. Your husband just learned of your betrayal; it's fresh for him. He's going to go through different stages of his recovery. You can expect that.

But he married you "for better or worse"...you did this thing that was "worse"...he swore to God that he would love you "in spite of" not "because of"...so he has some responsibility, too.

I never get depressed anymore. My husband simply will not allow it. As I begin to frown, he is all over me...not even giving me time to think of "how miserable life is". Life is not miserable; it doesn't have to be. It is simple for me to say now that I know my husband: happiness is a choice...a state of mind. It really is.

And someone's ability to recover from trauma (such as what you and your husband are going through with the A) is, also, PARTLY a choice...a state of mind. I know plenty of people who have recovered from affairs. None of them mentioned the A begin "worse than the death of a child" or "rape". Those people chose not to give the A that kind of power over their lives.

Don't give it that power over your life...and don't allow your husband to do that to his life. Follow the MB principles as much as they help. Dr. Harley has great concepts.

The problem on this discussion board is not the principles but the application of the principles. (My goal is to post 900 more posts so I will become a vet and have some credibility around here.) smile

Stand up, SW! You are not the worst person in the world.

(If you don't hear from me again it's because I was kicked off of the website for insubordination...NOT because I don't care... and NOT because these "lunatics" wore me down.) wink
fm, your post is rude and insulting to people who have tried to help both you and sw. It is insulting to the BSs that you have harmed and to repentant WSs.

This post shows me that you have no sense of horror at what you did to your BS, and neither do you think any WS should feel horror. You do not take either Dr Harley's or the BS's word for what the trauma feels like; if it feels worse than rape or the death of a child, then that is their choice to feel that way.

How dare you.

You seem to be here to defend WSs. In your view stated above, the BS "had some responsibility too" ...I cannot follow your logic for why. You seem to be saying that they are responsible because they married the WS. Not only is this illogical; you seem to have learned nothing from your time here.

You tell sw "don't allow your husband to do that to his life". So she not only imposes an affair for him to deal with emotionally; according to you she has the right to tell him for how long and in what way he must deal with it.

You will never become a "vet', however many posts you make, with the support for waywardness that you are giving.

The BSs and reformed FWS here are not lunatics, and we have no intention of "wearing you down". We are interesting in helping people recover their marriages from affairs. Every time you attempt to impose anti-MB views on anyone other than yourself, we will tell them why your advice is wrong. You can believe anything you like, and run your marriage and control your H's recovery in any way you like, but you will not be allowed to endorse waywardness unchallenged on here.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 02:57 PM
As a former wayward, I am astonished to see the incredible level of self-pity and self-justification expressed by some of these waywards like SW and FM. What is the point in coming to MB, if it is to argue and deny MB insights, experience, and knowledge? The self-proccupation is so clear, as was my own, which I am still struggling to discard, and it is an illness pure and simple. We are all born totally self-centered, and growing up and becoming an adult involves overcoming this. Yet, how many people, like myself, manage to grow up intellectually, but emotionally remain like newborns, completely preoccupied with our own wants and needs and even thoughts? It is stunted maturity, which is an illness, and it is destroying most marriages and creating a society that is ill with greed and quest for profit and self-validation. Could it be that the depression of some of these waywards is merely the shock and unhappiness of suddenly realizing that the world does not center around them, that being married is actually a forfeiture of self-need to the needs of the marriage? To read the comments of these waywards is not only to look in a mirror and see the ugly truth about who I was, but reveals that these folks are like children having a temper tantrum after being corrected by responsible parents. I have written a couple of long posts appealing to the brain of SW, as have others, but really it can be summed up more effectively by two words of advice. Grow up. That's it. For some, that requires a 2X4.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 03:02 PM
SugarCane

Excellent post.

There is nothing more deadly to the recovery of a marriage, especially with a foggy wayward, than kid gloves and allowing avoidance of responsibility. That includes the necessary 2x4's to bust through the fog and holding one accountable for the mistakes they have made. If someone does not want guidance they should not be here, there are other places where they can commiserate. IMO I rarely see anything harsh enough to warrant a response like FM's. FM's response just points out how difficult it is to make headway without remorse. No guidance will be accepted, either kind or harsh, when one can blame shift so easily.
Posted By: staytogether Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 03:44 PM
Sadeest wife

I'm FWW. Please look at you. When I first came here, I didn't really understand what the people were telling me about how much my H was hurt - I was too angry with him.

Everyone was saying the same thing to me, so I guessed that there must be something in it.

All I could think about was how I missed the friendship, the company the conversation and the attention.

I wanted to lose that - I wanted to give my M a chance, so I tried to push it from my mind and it took months and months - wasn't the OM that i missed, just what i got from the A.

Some posters posted to me and reflected my feelings - they said "I know you feel this right now but you need to put it to one side" and some have done this to you.
You feel and it IS valid, because you do feel it. But try to see it form the outside too, try looking in.

These posters got through to me and I was able to appreciate that what I was feeling was what I was feeling, but what I had to get on and do was try to change things for the better.

Have you read the sections on how As start?

Reading this was the thing that most helped me turn my thoughts around - when I realised why it happened it was easy to do the undoing. The section explains it in a non-judgemental and non-accusatory way that helps to understand and is then motivating to turn things around.
How Affairs Start


Posted By: fullmoon16 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 04:47 PM
**edit**

Stop disrupting this thread!!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 04:57 PM
FM, the OP on this thread asked you to stay off of it. Since you are big on posting with "respect" to waywards, maybe you should resepct her wishes?
Originally Posted by saddestwife
SuzieQ, you do know it is not me, SW, with the wedding issue, right? I am avoiding all places where there is the slightest chance I might run into OM like the plague for the foreseeable future because if I saw him, however innocently, I will have to tell my H and I know what the look on his face would be and I WILL NOT DO THAT TO HIM.

Fullmoon, I read your threads and other WW's because I want the wisdom of the posters there -- they've spent way too much time on me -- NOT to try to identify with other WW's. Yes it's painful, yes it sucks, yes we did it to ourselves which would actually be OK but the blast zone for an A goes way beyond us.

The reality is that all we WS's can do if we talk to each other is screw each other up worse. If we had a CLUE we wouldn't be here in the first place.

I'm not trying to be ugly at all -- but would you please post on your thread and not mine? I'm getting to be elderly and easily confused.....
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
Originally Posted by SugarCane
your post is rude and insulting to people who have tried to help both you and sw. It is insulting to the BSs that you have harmed and to repentant WSs.

Let me ask you something? Does it bother you if BSs harm me by calling me derogatory names or a waste of time? Think about that.

Obviously, it does not matter how depressed SW is�or what she may or may not do to herself. It�s of no consequence to you.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
This post shows me that you have no sense of horror at what you did to your BS


My own husband has no sense of horror for what I did.

And, allow me to clarify, I DO CARE. That�s why I ended up on this website�looking for ways to be better.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
and neither do you think any WS should feel horror. You do not take either Dr Harley's or the BS's word for what the trauma feels like

I will take their word if that is what it feels like to some people. It doesn�t feel like that to EVERY person�like my husband as a prime example�and it serves no one any purpose for you to encourage the BSs to feel worse than they feel. It serves no purpose to allow SW to sink deeper into a depression just for the sake of taking a hardline with her.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
How dare you.

How dare you!

Originally Posted by SugarCane
You seem to be here to defend WSs.

That is absolutely NOT why I am here. I am here to work on me. And I am HERE to show some humanity to other people whether or not they made a horrible egregious error in judgment. NO, that does not define her�and someone should say it CLEARLY�not in passing. She CAN DO THIS! She CAN get better. I know it because I am getting better. One of the last statements on her thread was about how someone didn�t think she was going to make it. Is this how you help someone?

Originally Posted by SugarCane
In your view stated above, the BS "had some responsibility too" ...I cannot follow your logic for why. You seem to be saying that they are responsible because they married the WS. Not only is this illogical; you seem to have learned nothing from your time here.

I learned plenty from my time here. I am not going to write all that I�ve learned�as this whole post is likely to be �*edited*� for insubordination.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
Every time you attempt to impose anti-MB views on anyone other than yourself, we will tell them why your advice is wrong. You can believe anything you like, and run your marriage and control your H's recovery in any way you like, but you will not be allowed to endorse waywardness unchallenged on here.

Well, you have the moderators on your side so you win your �challenge� by default.

The things I say is not about NOT following MB principles�it�s about basic humanity and how you relate to another human being, how you write/communicate/express yourself to another person�wayward or not, flawed or not. It�s sad that you cannot see that.

I am not even going to attempt to answer for SugarCane, she is perfectly capable of doing this herself. HOWEVER I will respond to what you stated about my post. I will start it by adding your last statement in the post I am responding to.

Quote
The things I say is not about NOT following MB principles�it�s about basic humanity and how you relate to another human being, how you write/communicate/express yourself to another person�wayward or not, flawed or not. It�s sad that you cannot see that.
My bold added.

Odd that you seem not to apply that to yourself FM. You said this,
Quote
One of the last statements on her thread was about how someone didn�t think she was going to make it. Is this how you help someone?
That is what you took from this comment, in paragraph, from my response to SW.
Quote
I think you are not going to do it. I think you get it but I think you would rather leave devastation in your wake than make things right. There are people who do those kinds of things, GM was once one of them. I think this thread is now triggering me too hard and I will stay out of it. I feel so terribly sorry for your BH and you know what? I feel sad for you. Still, once again I feel sad for you. This is all such a no brainer that you with all your intellegence can easily get it but you just simply cannot or will not do it.

It says things much differently seen as a whole than what you refer to as an inhumane, defining statement. As seen in the previous posts to SW from me you will see it in a trend from helping and encouraging and believing she will make it to dropping when the points have been shifted and changed to suit her needs with regularity.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by fullmoon16
Originally Posted by SugarCane
How dare you.

How dare you!
How dare I what?
Posted By: Revera Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/04/10 06:04 PM
Please stop disrupting this thread with personal agendas. If you can help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts, then feel free to post. If not, please refrain from posting!
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 01:17 AM
Hi SW,

Well how are you doing now. Did any time away help you to focus and recharge?

Ya know what, you have seemed a little edgy. But am not going to criticise you at all. I just hope that this time away - w/o regard to a few negative comments from a few here - have helped. The point is really some get edgy here because they preceive you as resistant. The advice is in line with MB, but as expressed by some it is a formula approach. I absolutely hope you come back and participate, and compromise your seemingly staunch approach. This is your marriage and no one else's here.

That is all I can say to you, except for continuing to learn and try, and of course with your H's support. By way, I did have my W here last two days, and I took a risk in that, but I wanted to.

Just simply, good luck and prayers, and do not go away from here or your M, unless you decide it is in your best interest.

Tom



Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 02:08 PM
SW has flown the coop and apparently given up on her marriage. So sad, another family destroyed by adultery.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 02:28 PM
Oh, no, she hasn't flown the coop. She has just given up on her own work on her own thread. But at least she's consistent in taking digs at others who have tried - in good faith - to help her recover personally and potentially maritally.

I'm sorry, SW, but you have so many resources at your disposal that many would kill to have. And you are squandering every last one of them with your pride and your refusal to consider any other perspectives on this.

Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 03:25 PM
Yo V!

Quote
I'm sorry, SW, but you have so many resources at your disposal that many would kill to have.

Both acquired and intelligence. She was beginning to get it I thought.

SW, if you read this I have something to say that might help YOU, your marriage as well, but this is for you and for your comfort and your future.

I find myself in a similar situation only from the BS side. I have to reach out, work the lessons and I do not want to. I would never have had all these problems to correct if GM had not created the unchangeable environment he did in our marriage. I would never have to do this if he could have just admitted that he had a problem and not lied his way through all the therapists for 20+ years. We could have nipped our problems in the bud in the very beginning but now we have almost 30 years of bad habits to correct. I am in your shoes except from the other end. I am terrified of putting myself out there because of what he has done to me. It is slowing us down as I stick in my toe and run away again. You do the same. Neither of us will get through this until we do that enough to get comfortable then move on to our ankles. I am afraid that the moment I get in a little further GM will tie rocks to my ankles and shove me in the deep end. You may feel scared like that too, GM does as well but good grief. You two built the pool and stole all the floaties.

The biggest difference here is that you and GM took the cheaters way out. I know what I have to do but I am one stubborn woman. I will be damned if I am going to put myself at risk with this man. However, as hard as it is it is what I must do. Your H will need to do that as well but you can't expect him to even begin until you have proven yourself a healed ex cheater who wants him more than any lover or even over your own comfort for the time being.

SW, I don't even know why I bothered to write this down except that I think you are so close but you are terrified. I guess I just wanted you to know that it is OK to feel that way but it is the cowards way out if as the one who caused this devastating harm to your H and M you can't take the risk now to heal it.

You do not strike me as a coward. Neither did GM but he was for most of his life, he just told himself he was the bravest knight at the round table. Fantasy. Woman up my dear, pull up your big girl panties and take the risk. At least you KNOW what the risk is. Your BH and I never even saw it coming.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 06:15 PM
I wish I had time to go through and individually apologize on each thread to each poster here who I offended with my comment to Rizo, but today is laundry day... which at Saddest's house is a bigger deal than it sounds.

It was in no way my intention to discount everyone's contribution to helping me or Rizos. For me, it has been helpful to narrow my focus -- Mark1952 talks a lot about the mental processes around A's. JL talks a lot about how to formulate a plan, and GloveOil gives a male perspective plus he's funny sometimes which is a nice break. I decided to narrow my research down to three because I was bouncing around like a pin ball -- not because I don't think others have equally meaningful things to say. I read posts from each of them on other threads for for an hour or so a day and save those that I want to contemplate further or want my H to read at some point on my desktop plus I keep up with those posters I think of as "my people."

Mrs.V -- I have read and will continue to follow your thread -- I'm so sorry you were offended. Personally, I think you should post more -- FWW's are hard to ignore.

Tom -- what a dear man you are. Your W is lucky -- I hope she knows it.

DWG -- thanks for your input. I do have some thoughts for you and GM, but I will post them on your threads. There are some similarities between our M's and I have read both of your threads, although I never could find GM's original thread where he evidently got hit by about as many 2x4's as me.... Actually, it was something on your thread which triggered my acting vs. being a person of integrity epiphany -- an innocuous comment about sheet music if you are wondering.

This will be my last post on my thread. The reason I am not going to post my story anymore is that I believe that the path to fixing my M has to start with fixing me, and when I talk about myself and what I am thinking and feeling here, the reaction is often negative -- I'm selfish or lying or whatever. Not always, but often. Because I have a history of severe, clinical depression, I have to be mindful of adopting negative thought patterns which are often reinforced here, plus, as silly as it sounds, I never got over the whole evil/Hitler thing.

I have concluded that it is not enough for me to act like a person with integrity -- I have to actually be that person (thanks GM). And that means living consciously. I have to check in with myself constantly to see what I am feeling and thinking, evaluate the validity of those thoughts and feelings, and decide on the right course of action. Checking in with myself does not come naturally to me -- it is exhausting and exhilarating at the same time.

It means changing my default setting from "what do I say to keep everyone else in the room reasonably happy" to "what do I say that is true and constructive." It means challenging my H on his AO to the kids instead of apologizing to them for him. It means crowding him a little on talking about the A because I am confident that is the right thing to do. It means not assuming I know what he is thinking and having the courage to ask. It means no more hiding.

It is incredibly hard to stop hiding.

And yes, it means healing my H, but I can't do that from a position of weakness and too often I have come away from this forum feeling weak, depleted and inadequate to the task. I have to maintain the energy required to live consciously and be strong enough to be unflinchingly honest.

I have no idea whether my M can be repaired which I view as a distinct issue from healing my H which is my obligation regardless. Some days I think yes, others, no, and some days I really could care less, but I don't have to decide that right now. Right now all I have to decide is what I'm going to do today.

I do know that if it is going to happen, it is on me to lead the way.

I will leave you with a funny story -- or what I think is a funny story. My MIL was here and took me and my H out to dinner. My MIL has been to pretty much every country in the world. OM is from another country, and naturally my MIL started telling stories about her travels to his country. I could not get her off the subject, and I saw my H getting smaller and smaller and shrinking away from the table. So I put my hand on his leg and scooted over next to him. She keeps talking. Hand moves up the leg. She kept talking, oblivious to the fact that I was frantically trying to change the subject. By the end, I basically had my hand on his crotch, thinking "see where adultery got you Saddest? Sitting at a table with your MIL with your hand on her son's crotch? Isn't this special."

Finally, my H left the table and I was able to tell my MIL to not talk about that country as OM was from there. Asked my H after dinner what I could do in the future to help him through triggers and he said he didn't want to talk about it .... long pause.... but a hand on his crotch was welcome anytime.

You do have to laugh sometimes.

Thanks to you all -- my decision to stop posting my story here doesn't mean that I'm not still learning.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 06:31 PM
Saddest,

I think youjust learned a very important lesson in your story. Your H often doesn't want words he wants actions MrRollieEyes And while that particular action was very...shall we say personal. It was noticed and obviously welcomed.

What you may have missed is that you are the ONLY person that can do that. Just as you are the ONLY person that touch his soul. Saddest the part you have not gotten is that to your H you are special and you have special entry into his life. Make use of it.

You might want to go over the Hitched's thread. She is struggling with the concept of boundaries. We are having an interesting discussion that you might also find helpful, if only because her struggles might trigger some ideas for your own situation.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 07:31 PM
That is a great post, SW. I have sensed from the beginning that your difficulties are very much like mine, which is why I have followed your thinking on this thread so closely. Yes, it is about hiding and doing and saying things to make others feel good rather than being honest. That is it exactly, and yes, it is extremely hard to learn new patterns of thought, make this conscious, and change it. I have one or more, usually several, lapses every day. Each of them makes me want to hit myself with a 2X4, when DWG calls me on it. There was another one just moments ago. Markos pointed out to me in a fantastic post that I copied and read every day, that those are controlling behaviors. It is an attempt to control what others are feeling, and for DWG, it is an enormous love buster when I do that, as it would be for anyone. What is crazy is that it has taken me 62 years to grasp this. In my mind, those things had been justified by me, because of the illusion that it is something good, that the motive is generous and kind-hearted. In reality, it contributed to enormous problems in relationships from the beginning, especially my marriage. DWG is very much someone who deeply resents being controlled, and I have been causing this resentment in her from day one of our marriage and continued to do it relentlessly for 26 years. I am still being caught at it nearly every day, but it is gradually become conscious, and so I am starting to gain more and more control over it. It is a long journey, and it is not easy with mental habits like that.

My original thread was called "What do I do?", and the URL is http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2195605&page=1


All the time I was ruining DWG's life (her screen name was different in the earlier threads), I was a medical professional practicing my specialty at the highest level, universally respected by my peers, serving in leadership roles, and being treated like some kind of celebrity or model of greatness during the day. In my private life, I was everything wrong that an adult could be. The fact that I am transforming and have a chance to recover our marriage and that DWG has managed to give me this chance is nothing short of a miracle. Needless to say, she was pummeled by the veterans and BS's on this forum for even giving me this chance. She got the 2X4 treatment, also. I understand why. Other than true love, I cannot understand how DWG could have undertaken the kind of journey through pain that she has taken by not not divorcing me and trying to make this work. It is partially a level of stubbornness that is the stuff of legends. From my standpoint, I would rather die a thousands painful and horrifying deaths than ever hurt her again.

Now that you know my story, it would be worth going back and re-reading some of DWG's and my posts to you. From your last post, I really think you have a chance to succeed.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 07:43 PM
SW,

What you have done with this post is what you need to keep doing. 2x4's come to all of us in various forms for various reasons. When we are being stupid we get told because at the point where we all are there is very little room for mistake. "People change so quickly here" to quote my favorite movie to quote.

You make great strides and then you come apart and post about it. That is when we come hard at you, partly it is meant to keep you going on the straight and narrow path and show you how very close the ledge is.

Post how you feel, that is fine but when you are on this particular path it is necessary to also post what you are doing about it or ask what you can do about it. Sometimes your style leads people to feel you are sinking and not at all interested in learning better how to deal. You are all over the map, understandable. Try changing your posting skills a bit and do not ever be afraid of sounding stupid or inept. We are all stupid and inept as we figure it out.

One of the things I learned, as I am sure you saw in my thread, was that I needed to go on a personal journey to learn my own mistakes, my own coping methods and what was really going to work for me going forward. For you being the one who lost boundaries you will have to do it as well but it will have to come later after you heal your H. For now you have to be able to put that all aside and focus. No matter how you feel you must focus on him. Your time will come but by then you will have to look at it an entirely different way than you do now. You will get to that point later. Wanting to fix things that he does to you is understandable but you upped the ante and he has called you (if I got that right) and you have to produce your bad hand and start again with a good one.

This is all hard, every one of us has it hard and you will as well. Accept that, accept that everything here is said with care even if it hurts. Sometimes a 2x4 is the only way when someone continues to not get the points being made. Those points would not be made if they were not important.

I would hope that you will not stop posting. I really do not want to see that happen. Follow those who help you the most but do not allow yourself not to benefit from what they might say to you personally. If some of the rest of us bother you then it might be because there is truth that you do not want to accept but need to. Take it that way and know it is meant with all good intentions. Please. You have so much potential and there is such a good chance for you to heal this and have a wonderful life with someone you loved enough to marry.

About the Hitler posts...I think if you can just let yourself drop that now and look back at it later you will see that it was not a personal comparison but a comparison of presentation of ideas. Could you let that slide for now and take our word for it that none of us saw you as Hitler, it was just not personal at all?

Your situation triggers the heck out of me and I am not certain why yours in particular but there is also something there that keeps me coming back and waiting, waiting for you to have that Aha moment and run with this. I know GM feels the same about your posts, he is writing another tome to you that will either precede my tome or follow it. Poor you smile.

I am nowhere near a vet here and nowhere near knowing enough to actually provide a lot of guidance, I just feel compelled to help in any small way I can. Whatever the sheet music comment was (I can't recall that at all and will have to go look for it to satisfy my curiosity) I am glad it lead you somewhere.

Sorry for all the long posts. GM and I both like to talk and discuss and think and talk some more so I guess everyone here will just have to decide to read them or not smile at least they do not have to live with us (we will talk you to death).

Please do post. You are so smart and so strong that I can't imagine that this will not work if you can just finally relax with the program (hard to do sometimes I know) and work it. I hate to see such a long and productive marriage break down any more. Think about it please.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 07:56 PM
hurray

Great post, DWG! (I mean: Yo, DWG!)

SW - While I disagree with the idea of taking a complete posting hiatus, (see DWG's post), I do urge you to re-read your thread. I think you'll see some of the ideas you expounded upon in your last post, and hopefully you can track your progression.

Also, a quick aside re: your comment on Rizos's thread. I don't think anyone feels left out of the praise, so to speak, and I would bet good money that your list of helpful posters is shared by many. The problem was in your dismissal of everyone else. "Background noise" and advice to ignore all the rest was what was insulting. It may seem mean and nitpicky, but this is precisely the kind of thinking (disrespectful judgments, opening your mouth without thinking of consequences, etc.) that MB can and does address. Something to look forward to!

So, last thing. I agree with DWG, too, about the forum posters coming back for more here - I think you can get it. So let's go, lady! smile
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 07:57 PM
Oh, and I suspect the FWWs are hard to ignore because we are the most batty... laugh
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 08:00 PM
Quote
(I mean: Yo, DWG!)


rotflmao
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 08:17 PM
I am beginning to think we need a group here, the Yo Yo's!

Sorry for the T/J. smile
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Oh, and I suspect the FWWs are hard to ignore because we are the most batty... grin


All right, I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
I am beginning to think we need a group here, the Yo Yo's!

Did YOU put HFCS in your breakfast cereal box today, lady??
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/06/10 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Oh, and I suspect the FWWs are hard to ignore because we are the most batty... grin


All right, I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
I am beginning to think we need a group here, the Yo Yo's!

Did YOU put HFCS in your breakfast cereal box today, lady??

I most certainly did not! I can not eat cereal while on my diet, I had a pear and two sticks of Weight Watchers string cheese. I seriously avoid HFCS like the plague. Oh but I would die for a good Kashi cereal about now frown.

YoYo sister! Much better than the YaYa's doncha think?
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
YoYo sister! Much better than the YaYa's doncha think?

Isn't that about a divine traveling pants something or other?

*Sigh... sigh Sometimes I get my young girl power movies so mixed up...

SW, consider this a mere preview of what's to come if you stay off of your thread for too long!
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
YoYo sister! Much better than the YaYa's doncha think?

Isn't that about a divine traveling pants something or other?

*Sigh... sigh Sometimes I get my young girl power movies so mixed up...

SW, consider this a mere preview of what's to come if you stay off of your thread for too long!

We will run amok all over your thread and when you come back you will really be confused!

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 02:26 AM
Come back? Are you kidding? You guys are WAY too entertaining. I cannot remember the last time I saw women interact in a silly, healthy, supportive way. It does my heart good.

But I do have to ask -- what in the world is HFCS? I wanted to figure it out on my own so didn't google but I give up.
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 02:38 AM
High Fructose Corn Syrup silly!

We do play, we like each other and when your life is falling apart there is nothing like the support you can find here. I love these people but have only met a few of them. Still I think I have their backs and they have mine. They also have GM's that is the magic of this place.

See, join us. You would be really fun to have in this place.

I edited out something about smacks but you don't need to hear it all again. Just jump in.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 04:22 AM
Hahahahaha...All this talk of HFCS and DWG throws in "smacks" and I think of whatever that cereal is, Honey Smacks.

It sounds good right now, actually. As does sleep. I can no longer muster up any funniness! (I can no longer muster up my spelling powers, either, or the strength to actually determine if I did indeed spell that correctly.)

Ugh. I am so tired. You're welcome for that little entertainment right there. [Linked Image from bestsmileys.com]

(Yo, DWG! I found sheep to go with your goat!)
Posted By: DancesWithGoats Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 04:46 AM
Goodnight V!

Sleep well.

Just a thought, goats are very sweet. I would count goats over sheep any old day/night. They give kisses too smile
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/07/10 07:05 AM
Well, just from me, am glad to see you back here because besides being an intellegent person, you do simply seem to care - just maybe a little too reactionary is all...*s*

Anyway, I didn't expect to be up this late but was awoken when Mitzie was hopping on the bed earlier tonight. This isn't that unusual to me because honestly C used to do that too oacasionally. She was a dancer way back in the 60's and even now she gets cramps in her legs even at night and a few times have been awoken with her jumping on the bed or floor during the night trying to relieve them.

Take care.

Tom

Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 06:18 PM
I seriously overestimated my ability to go it alone so I'm back for help.

I have an email in to see if SteveH has time tomorrow -- no phone.

1. H evidently stayed up all night ruminating and had a few questions/comments for me this morning before I had my coffee. Never a good idea to talk to me before I have my coffee but I did my best. He asked "how could you do this to me? You must hate me."

That one I was ready for as SteveH told me exactly what to say -- I let me guard down (Steve's words) and didn't maintain my boundaries, the responsibility was totally one hundred per cent mine and I am taking steps to ensure that that never happens again.

And I am -- I'm working JL's core values/boundaries model and its syncing beautifully for me.

WRONG ANSWER. So, so wrong. H got really mad, and kept pressing it but I didn't have anything else that wouldn't suggest that he had some responsibility -- I was mad, I was lonely, I did hate you and wanted to hurt you back, my needs weren't being met etc. So I just sat there. I didn't have a fall back position.

What should I have said?

He asked me if I think often of OM, and I said "not really" which is not true -- I do think of OM. I think he is a complete POSSOB for pursuing me -- which is not to excuse my conduct AT ALL so don't jump on me-- but I do think about what I would like to say/do to him, and fingernails and his face are involved. I didn't tell my H that as it would sound like I was deflecting blame off me onto OM.

What should I have said?

Family went out on a long planned hike and I stayed home as I started throwing up which is what I always do when I get really upset -- there is nothing to be done about it -- 20+ pounds lost since the start of the A. I feel like I ruined everyone's day. How could I have handled this differently? Should I have said let's talk about it later? That didn't seem like the right thing to do.

2. I am physically afraid of H. I don't think he will get physical with me again, but I didn't think he would do it the first time. I got really nervous during the conversation this a.m. -- after a while he moved to hug me and I flinched. Bad message. I can take it -- I'm a pretty tough cookie, but I don't want my sons around if it happens again and they are in the house right now. H initially denied his actions, then said they were understandable and I think it's mean to bring it up. Am I being foggily ridiculous to be concerned? He's only gotten physical with me the one time.

3. At least 80 per cent of the time I think this M is over and I am being disingenuous or dishonest not vocalizing that. I told SteveH that I wanted the M to work because I wanted my best friend back, but I think that may have been revisionist history as I can't think of a time in recent memory when I felt particularly close to H, but that may be revisionist history too. It seems to me in a 25 year M you could cherry pick enough evidence to support either position.

I wonder if my wanting to tell him the M is over is a way to manipulate him into working on it with me?

I don't know how to sort out my motives and feelings or whether anything I am thinking is to be trusted in the slightest. I'm trying to reality check what I say but reality seems elusive at times.

How do you know if you are ever out of the fog? It's only been 30 days NC so I suspect I'm not there.

Was hoping to learn what I needed from 2x4s to other WW's but they seem scarce on the board these days so I am throwing myself on your mercy.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 06:36 PM
SW -

Just a quick note of encouragement (I guess it qualifies as that...):

This is expected for recovery. There are ups, and there are huge downs, as there should be. (No downs is real cause for concern!)

It's also hugely necessary. I think these are the times when you can choose to learn and grow the most. Most of my "epiphanies" occurred after some pretty low lows on the recovery rollercoaster.

Nothing more to add re: the details of your post - heading out for the day - but will check back in later and see if there's anything I can add that others haven't posited already.

Glad you're posting. smile
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 06:39 PM
And apparently we done run all them other WWs off! Shoooot, man! (*insert Mel's tobacco-spittin' Texan smiley here*)
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I seriously overestimated my ability to go it alone so I'm back for help.

I have an email in to see if SteveH has time tomorrow -- no phone.

1. H evidently stayed up all night ruminating and had a few questions/comments for me this morning before I had my coffee. Never a good idea to talk to me before I have my coffee but I did my best. He asked "how could you do this to me? You must hate me."

That one I was ready for as SteveH told me exactly what to say -- I let me guard down (Steve's words) and didn't maintain my boundaries, the responsibility was totally one hundred per cent mine and I am taking steps to ensure that that never happens again.

And I am -- I'm working JL's core values/boundaries model and its syncing beautifully for me.

WRONG ANSWER. So, so wrong. H got really mad, and kept pressing it but I didn't have anything else that wouldn't suggest that he had some responsibility -- I was mad, I was lonely, I did hate you and wanted to hurt you back, my needs weren't being met etc. So I just sat there. I didn't have a fall back position.

What should I have said?

He asked me if I think often of OM, and I said "not really" which is not true -- I do think of OM. I think he is a complete POSSOB for pursuing me -- which is not to excuse my conduct AT ALL so don't jump on me-- but I do think about what I would like to say/do to him, and fingernails and his face are involved. I didn't tell my H that as it would sound like I was deflecting blame off me onto OM.

What should I have said?

Family went out on a long planned hike and I stayed home as I started throwing up which is what I always do when I get really upset -- there is nothing to be done about it -- 20+ pounds lost since the start of the A. I feel like I ruined everyone's day. How could I have handled this differently? Should I have said let's talk about it later? That didn't seem like the right thing to do.

2. I am physically afraid of H. I don't think he will get physical with me again, but I didn't think he would do it the first time. I got really nervous during the conversation this a.m. -- after a while he moved to hug me and I flinched. Bad message. I can take it -- I'm a pretty tough cookie, but I don't want my sons around if it happens again and they are in the house right now. H initially denied his actions, then said they were understandable and I think it's mean to bring it up. Am I being foggily ridiculous to be concerned? He's only gotten physical with me the one time.

3. At least 80 per cent of the time I think this M is over and I am being disingenuous or dishonest not vocalizing that. I told SteveH that I wanted the M to work because I wanted my best friend back, but I think that may have been revisionist history as I can't think of a time in recent memory when I felt particularly close to H, but that may be revisionist history too. It seems to me in a 25 year M you could cherry pick enough evidence to support either position.

I wonder if my wanting to tell him the M is over is a way to manipulate him into working on it with me?

I don't know how to sort out my motives and feelings or whether anything I am thinking is to be trusted in the slightest. I'm trying to reality check what I say but reality seems elusive at times.

How do you know if you are ever out of the fog? It's only been 30 days NC so I suspect I'm not there.

Was hoping to learn what I needed from 2x4s to other WW's but they seem scarce on the board these days so I am throwing myself on your mercy.

SW, that is a tough problem that will not get better for a good while, but the sooner that you do it the right way, the sooner that will come, even it it is a year or two away. It is just starting to really hit him, and you are in for a long journey. You need to do the opposite of what I did for a long time. My inclination was to say things that I thought would help to make DWG recover and feel better at the moment and to understand. That was absolutely the wrong thing, because it was an attempt to control her feelings and reactions. Do not try to explain, because it comes out as an excuse or justification, as there is none. And like me, I know you are prone to cerebralizing everything. It is 100% the wrong thing. His reactions are not really coming from his brain but from his wounded heart. His words and thoughts are only reflections of what is basically a feeling or emotion of pain, betrayal, confusion, and anger. You caused a mortal wound, and your only response can be to acknowledge and validate his feelings and pain and sit there and take it and do not offer excuses or try to change the subject. At other times, work totally on meeting his emotional needs and ignoring your own, which could be many months or even a couple of years. At other moments, when he is not focused on that, invite him to come here and start posting. Nothing will help him more than the advice of the veterans here.

One other thing: Do not confuse the policy of Openness and Honesty with a requirement to give gory details. That was a horrible mistake I made. Ask Dr. Harley about that. There is a certain amount he absolutely must know, but not give details that serve no purpose other than to put images in his head that he will not be able to stop thinking about. If he insists, tell him that you need to ask Dr. Harley some things before answering those. Sometimes, too much honesty is an excuse for not considering the feelings of your spouse. I am sure that others here will want to respond to that.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 07:04 PM
Saddest,

You asked "What should I have said?" Honesty works. Actually, it is the only thing that works. Anything else will either be found out later (with much damage) or it will have a hollow ring that leaves the BS empty.

So let me offer you are few things to consider OK?

You said
Quote
That one I was ready for as SteveH told me exactly what to say -- I let me guard down (Steve's words) and didn't maintain my boundaries, the responsibility was totally one hundred per cent mine and I am taking steps to ensure that that never happens again.

And I am -- I'm working JL's core values/boundaries model and its syncing beautifully for me.

WRONG ANSWER. So, so wrong. H got really mad, and kept pressing it but I didn't have anything else that wouldn't suggest that he had some responsibility -- I was mad, I was lonely, I did hate you and wanted to hurt you back, my needs weren't being met etc. So I just sat there. I didn't have a fall back position.

What should I have said?


Just what you said, however it was also probably true that the marriage was not in good shape was it? You did not feel involved in the marriage or left out, or whatever. What often a BS is searching for is something they can do, that will make it better. Why? Well my thoughts on the matter are the following. The BS feels betrayed, right? The BS doesn't trust the WS right? So when the WS says it was 100% my fault and essentially, "trust me I will protect you from now on.", the BS is shall we say, "abit sceptical". smile Often the BS is in a position where they don't want the blame, and don't deserve the blame but they NEED to control the recovery because they don't trust the WS to do so and protect them. See the bind they are in???

So it seems to me that you gave the correct answer about your affair and who's fault it is. However, you needed to go further and explain what you need out of the marriage and what you need from him to make you feel good about being in the marriage from now forward. Does this make sense?

Finally, H getting mad is normal. Wouldn't you be mad if he told you did it because he "wanted to" and it had nothing to do with you?

So you said and did the right thing, and he reacted normally.

Let's get to the next part. You said
Quote
He asked me if I think often of OM, and I said "not really" which is not true -- I do think of OM. I think he is a complete POSSOB for pursuing me -- which is not to excuse my conduct AT ALL so don't jump on me-- but I do think about what I would like to say/do to him, and fingernails and his face are involved. I didn't tell my H that as it would sound like I was deflecting blame off me onto OM.

What should I have said?
The honest truth. You do think of OM but not with pleasant thoughts. You would prefer to forget him but you cannot right now. It will come. This won't come as a surprise to him as I am sure he thinks you have OM in your thoughts all of the time and they are pleasant thoughts. He knows you are lying to him. Believe me most BS have a hard time believing anything their WS says. So you might was well tell the truth. You will feel better, you won't have to remember what you said days/weeks/months/years later. Just always tell the truth.

This bring me to the last part. It really is simple, you need to explain your boundaries and particularly about the abuse, physical particularly but even verbal. When you can stand on your own and be ready to enforce your boundaries, you will find honesty much easier to do. When you know your core beliefs, and have assessed your ability to live with or without your H, you have the basis of a good marriage. When he figures out you are only with him because you want to be not because you have to be, you will start to change the dynmaics of this marriage. The same holds for him. He can walk or he can stay, but he has to make that decision and then if he stays he must decide to do so because it is best for him and his happiness and therefore good for your happiness.

It really is simple Saddest, it just is not easy.

Doesn't this sound like circular logic? It sure does and the reason it does is that you two have not done what is said in the Bible. You have not become one. When that happens there is not circular logic because you two become a single point. What hurts him, hurts you. What helps him, helps you. What makes him happy, makes you happy. All of this is true of you as well. With that point of view there is "you go first". It is simply what happy married people do.

This ties nicely to something that Dr. Harley is big on. The POJA. Their should be no sacrifices in a marriage without negotiating a win-win. Why? unrecognized/compensated/appreciated/asked for sacrifices lead to RESENTMENT and that breaks the bond of marriage. I like the old saying
Quote
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

Must go. I hope this helps.

JL
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 08:15 PM
1. The fact you feel that 20% of the time you DON'T think the marriage is over is a GOOD SIGN. (most WW's are 100% sure it will never work again this early out).

2. Sounds like you are getting the hang of the fog a bit. You can't trust your "feelings"...so you are being encouraged here to just take actions trusting that your feelings will follow them. Ignore your feelings...work YOUR plan (MB) and try to get husband on board with developing and working the plan too. You want HIS feelings to follow HIS actions too, right? There are threads herein about how to get a reluctant spouse on-board with the program....generally, as I recall, the biggest selling point to men is "honey, here's a non-religious marital recovery program designed to help us fall back in love AND HAVE MORE SEX pretty much any time you want".

3. The fog takes a lifetime to clear up. Heck...I'm a bs 5+ years out and I'm still foggy about lots of things. The fog is not a bad thing unless and until you convince yourself you're not in it. Realizing such is maturity. We aren't teenagers anymore, we don't know it all and we are OK with that.

Good luck Counselor,

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: Wheels_spinning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/09/10 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
1. H evidently stayed up all night ruminating and had a few questions/comments for me this morning before I had my coffee. Never a good idea to talk to me before I have my coffee but I did my best. He asked "how could you do this to me? You must hate me."
....
What should I have said?

I see this as him to express his feelings of depression, and helplessness to you. Your pre conceived answer did not show him that you understood how he feels. I think his intent was for you to feel his feelings, not get some manufactured bull poop.

I think the best way to handle it would be repeating what he has just said, and if you don't know what he means then repeat what he said and tell him I don't understand. It could go like this:

DH: "How could you do this to me? you must Hate me."
SW: "You think that I hate you so much that I had an affair."

your husband wants to guide the conversation and you follow by repeating what he says in your words until he is done expressing himself. Answer his questions truthfully, do not sit and think of what you will say next.

Quote
He asked me if I think often of OM, and I said "not really" which is not true -- I do think of OM. I think he is a complete POSSOB for pursuing me -- which is not to excuse my conduct AT ALL so don't jump on me-- but I do think about what I would like to say/do to him, and fingernails and his face are involved. I didn't tell my H that as it would sound like I was deflecting blame off me onto OM.

What should I have said?

The truth. The truth will set you free, but not instantly. This is another conversation that he wanted to hear the truth. You should say yes. Then he will most likely ask "Do you think of him more than me?" etc.

Quote
Family went out on a long planned hike and I stayed home as I started throwing up which is what I always do when I get really upset -- there is nothing to be done about it...How could I have handled this differently?

You could try to POJA that thing. Long hikes are tough, and there must besomething else you guys could do like shorten it, or go to the park or something. Hold off the hike until you are feeling good.

Quote
2. I am physically afraid of H. I don't think he will get physical with me again, but I didn't think he would do it the first time. I got really nervous during the conversation this a.m. -- after a while he moved to hug me and I flinched. Bad message. I can take it -- I'm a pretty tough cookie, but I don't want my sons around if it happens again and they are in the house right now. H initially denied his actions, then said they were understandable and I think it's mean to bring it up. Am I being foggily ridiculous to be concerned? He's only gotten physical with me the one time.

Does he know that you are afraid of him right now? That sudden movements might scare you? Talk about it with him and ask him to tell you his physical intensions. Like I really want to hug you right now.

Quote
3. At least 80 per cent of the time I think this M is over and I am being disingenuous or dishonest not vocalizing that. I told SteveH that I wanted the M to work because I wanted my best friend back, but I think that may have been revisionist history as I can't think of a time in recent memory when I felt particularly close to H, but that may be revisionist history too. It seems to me in a 25 year M you could cherry pick enough evidence to support either position.

You don't have any recent closeness because you removed yourself. The idea is not to focus on what you had, but what you should be having. Try to set stuff up so you can have a better marriage by exercising MB principles.

Quote
I wonder if my wanting to tell him the M is over is a way to manipulate him into working on it with me?

BOOO! on the manipulation. Let him know that you are afraid about the current state of the marriage. Thats it, nothing else. See if he will follow up, which might be weeks later, he is not on the same time frame as you right now.

Quote
I don't know how to sort out my motives and feelings or whether anything I am thinking is to be trusted in the slightest. I'm trying to reality check what I say but reality seems elusive at times.

You have to determine your feelings in the most basic feelings. Fear, happy, scared, itchy. Don't try to figure out why you feel these things, just let yourself sort out what your basic feelings are.

Quote
How do you know if you are ever out of the fog? It's only been 30 days NC so I suspect I'm not there.

Was hoping to learn what I needed from 2x4s to other WW's but they seem scarce on the board these days so I am throwing myself on your mercy.

If you do not know then you are not out of the fog. I would say your actions dictate that they are on a course for a healthy relationship with their spouse, and when you are truly happy with what you have.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/10/10 01:24 AM
The 2x4 folks must have given up on me because I expected to get beat up over that last post.

JL -- please change your screen name. You aren't Just Learning. I am actually reevaluating my position regarding my sons and the military because of you.

He told me his trigger -- I text messaged a friend who recently ended a seven year affair who I hadn't communicated with since I ended mine, updating her on my status (married with no AP), and just checking back in after my month long disappearance. I deleted that text message but then she responded and I didn't delete the response and H saw it and it was clear to him she was responding to something I said -- but what?

I have no idea why I deleted the text to my friend -- reflex? It didn't say anything bad but of course H has no reason to believe that.

I now understand what a fine line I am walking.

Today was to be expected -- I have been Plan A'ing H for a month and he now feels safe enough to start expressing his feelings which makes me feel terribly dishonest as I am 80 percent sure this M is over. I have been going through the motions because it is the right thing to do to try to heal him to honor my core values of honesty and compassion, but I think JL just pointed out to me that if those are my core values, I have to give H a meaningful, honest opportunity to heal me too -- TERRIFYING.

I think I have my head around all of what I need to do and then the RAGE comes rolling back in and I have no where to put it. It's out of the box now -- no putting it back in. Protecting myself against his anger is reflexive -- staying in the room today was a HUGE deal. I used to set my sports watch for three minutes, then leave. Wheels -- great advice on validating his feelings. It will hopefully make him feel better, and it will give me time to think. I hate getting caught flatfooted. I'm not talking about formulating a lie -- just formulating the honest answer said the right way.

I think the opposite of love is indifference, not hate, so the hate I occasionally feel I view as a good thing, but mostly I am indifferent. It's a tricky situation. Hopefully Steve will help me sort it out.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/10/10 01:56 AM
I am glad that you are still around doing what needs to be done.

It is true that what you need to do is just be honest. I understand that you want to make sure that you say the right things, in the right way. I get that. We all want to be understood. It may also be that you want to answer his questions in a way that will not cause him to ask more questions. Your BH is going to sense that you are editing yourself. Just make sure that you don't LB when you tell him what you feel and think and you will be fine. You need to ensure that you are not the cause of your BHs suffering and pain anymore. You need to remember the rules of care and protection as well. Work ALL aspects of MB and you will be a lot better off.

The thoughts that you are having about OM should most definitely be told to your BH. Do you understand why he asked you if you had thoughts about OM? It was to let you tell him that it was safe for him to share that HE is having thoughts about OM. He is thinking about him all of the time. When he wakes up, when he falls asleep. Possibly while he is dreaming. It is becoming a constant and he doesn't know how to turn it off. It isn't a quick fix. It is going to take a lot and there is most likely going to be a lot of resentment on both of your parts. The good folks who have recovered will be able to help you out.

As far as the 2x4's, really there wasn't much of a need for them from that post. You weren't being argumentative and totally fogged out. You are having times of lucidity. It is welcome to see.

I hope you keep learning and I hope you can get your talk with Steve soon. He can most definitely help you out. It is GREAT to see that you were so happy to talk to him because if my WH ever pulls his head outta his azz and wants to reconcile, a phone call to Steve will be a MINIMUM for contact with me. laugh
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/10/10 06:44 AM
Saddest,

Just a quick comment. You do know that anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc.

When you feel the anger boiling, stop and ask yourself, "What is driving this? What am I trying to accomplish other than protect something?"

If your H starts into the anger cycle, look at him and ask him "Dear, what is it you fear so much that you respond in such anger?" And then just look at him. This should get him thinking abit before he really explodes.

Saddest, your sons could do worse than getting military training. It can be dangerous, but so can many things including doing drugs. Now if you want my recommendation for a career path. smile Get them into science. laugh That is my true passion.

Hang in there.

JL
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/10/10 10:34 AM
saddest,
I have to say I think you are moving forward within yourself, you still have a ways to go but you now are thinking of being honest and you seem to a least want to do the right things even though you might not be feeling them yet......it takes a while for the fog to lift.......I'm a BS and it hurts every bone in my body to think my husband cares for someone else in this marriage, I'm sure your husband feels the same way.....he has a million questions and along with that go all the self doubt we take on in a situation like this.......I know it's different for you and my husband, you have someone in your life now besides us that has been fillling your needs and you think about them and have feelings for them.......but it is real? If you love your husband at all then the marriage deserves a chance, right now you are not thinking of him as the man you would do anything for, right now all you think about is you make one wrong move or statement and I can quit trying.....understand his feelings, give him the right to be mad......just touch him gently and tell him you want to fix all that and that you really do love him enough to try..........
If after you have given it a good try and the feelings just don't return for you, then leave right away and let him heal.
make sure you take care of him, don't expect to much to soon.....
understand what you have done and why, fix what needs to be fixed inside of you as well.......happiness for both of you will emerge from all this........
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 12:10 AM
Hey SW -

UGH. I had a post all typed up, then MB logged me off. UNBEKNOWNST TO ME. So now I'll give you the abbreviated version:

1) JL's point about anger being a secondary emotion. SPOT ON. What do you think?

If you are angry, make sure your BH knows it's not at him. (If you are angry at him, first make sure it's legit using JL's point above, then discuss it in a non-LBer way.) Figure out why you're angry, own it, and know that it's not about him, it's about you. (One time post-A where that's true!)

2) On Hitch's thread, you posted some interesting stuff.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I can finally say I would be absolutely fine on my own. Being alone holds no fear (and at times quite a bit of appeal) for me, and it is not because I think there is some other man out there for me. If we divorce and I meet someone, great. If not, I am SO OK with it.

I would be very cautious about trusting and following this kind of feeling. During my A, I was desperate to be alone. I wanted nothing more than independence, I was so utterly convinced that it was the only thing left and best for me. I was also convinced that I would be fine on my own, (I didn't care enough about anybody else anyway), and it mattered not a whit if there were an OM or not. Just me, myself, and I.

It was cowardly, though. It was running away from a problem of my own creation, it was turning a blind eye to the devastation I was actively inflicting on my own life, my BH, and our M. Yet I didn't realize any of that at the time. I just wanted to be away from it all.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I know without question that my H would have women flocking, and I'm OK with that too -- good luck to those ladies.


During that same time, thinking I wanted independence, it did surprise me when I got ticked off at some girl mooning over my BH. That actually helped clear some fog for me. Turns out, I did care. (Nice way of showing it, huh?)

After all this, if your feelings are genuine then it speaks to a larger problem regarding your recovery. You have got be all in. You said:

Originally Posted by saddestwife
What I am NOT OK with is continuing with the farce of a M we have had.

You will never achieve that "fall in love, stay in love" marriage if you don't go all in. I know you've mentioned how it's safer to withdraw, easier to protect yourself...but as the one who had the A, as the one who's here on MB, it falls to you, my dear. Someone has to step up. Invest in the recovery and the marriage with no expectations, (but hoping for the best!), and go all in.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
If you could die of resentment, I would be dead (told my H that last night).

Hmm, pretty sure that's a lovebuster... smile
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 01:39 AM
Mrs. V. I so love hearing from you. In fact, I have gotten quite fond of those who have stuck with me through my vitriolic, defensive, argumentative process. I think/read back through my first post hours 3 hours after I ended it, and I can't quite believe anyone is still interested.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Hey SW -
1) JL's point about anger being a secondary emotion. SPOT ON. What do you think?

He is spot on -- one of the very, very few things my mother taught me about emotions. Anger always covers up another emotion. I know I can look at my H now when he is angry about the A and say "what feeling are you fighting feeling?"

I am expressing feelings in the moment. A couple of days ago we were on a hike and I got left between two groups in the middle of NOWHERE. I have zero sense of direction -- given an opportunity to be lost, I will find it - I had just handed off my pack and jacket to my daughter who was going on, and my H went ahead with my son and his girlfriend and I went BALLISTIC when I caught up with him. He was defensive and non-empathetic. I finally stopped him, looked him in the eye and said "I was terrified. Your number one job as my husband is to keep me safe and I don't care if you 'knew' I was safe -- I didn't." He dismissed it for a while then he came to me and apologized sincerely.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
I can finally say I would be absolutely fine on my own. Being alone holds no fear (and at times quite a bit of appeal) for me, and it is not because I think there is some other man out there for me. If we divorce and I meet someone, great. If not, I am SO OK with it.

I am a loner by nature. My H has worked at home for the last several years and I have utterly failed to put any sort of boundaries in place -- and that is my failure.

But I do need large blocks of time physically and emotionally alone. Alone doesn't bother me.

However, I read in another book yesterday that some WS feel like the only appropriate sanction for them is to be alone for the rest of their lives. I don't know if that plays into my psyche or not.

Plus, I am also working through the exercises for daughters of mothers with narcissistic personality disorder (and you are going to have to trust me that that is my mother) and they often opt to be alone because it is impossible for them to conceive of a safe relationship.

The end goal (I think) is to be OK with being alone, and choose to be in the M.

I think that is where I am, but .... I trust nothing about what I am feeling.

My pdoc is my guide on this because either he is (1) incompetent, (2) sadistic, or (3) he thinks this M can work. He has been relentless on (3), to the point where I told him in May that his insistence that I work on my M (and go NC with OM) felt hostile to me.

Pdoc is very, very good.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I know without question that my H would have women flocking, and I'm OK with that too -- good luck to those ladies.


He hasn't been that great of an H because I haven't taught him how. Now if I were to teach him, and someone else got the benefit of that, that would me a hugely different story.



Originally Posted by saddestwife
What I am NOT OK with is continuing with the farce of a M we have had.

This is what I read in another book: "On good days, I am committed to my wife, on bad days I am committed to my marriage, and on really bad days I am committed to my commitment."

I am committed to my commitment right now. This forum has brought me so much good, but I think I have been following the advise too slavishly in contravention of what I know about myself and my H. Big conversation last night -- still processing, but will post when I have the questions it raised formulated.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
If you could die of resentment, I would be dead (told my H that last night).

Strangely enough, at the time, no. We laughed. He hasn't had a clue what has been going on my head.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 04:42 AM
Quote
He hasn't had a clue what has been going on my head.


And he should because he is ordinarily a great mindreader?

He should because you have been so honest with him/yourself?

He should because...?

Someday, you should meet a real player, he would have you going in so many directions and smiling all the way, until...he got tired of you or you disappointed him, then he would dump you.

Players read women like you as if you were taking out ads in the paper begging to be used.

Saddest I am telling you this because you seem to think your H's cluelessness is a bad thing. There is a big difference between being ignorant and being stupid. I doubt your H is stupid, but he may need to know a few things about you he does not know other than you can hurt him deeply. And consequently he can hurt you with little regret.

Please stop with this resentment stuff and start seeing your H in a different light. If he really is as bad as you make him out to be, I wonder why you ever married him. I wonder why you have had children with him, I wonder why you have been married as long as you have. And I wonder why you had an affair and didn't leave him before you did. You are a bright woman.

Your H may have many flaws, but he is the father of your children and he is still with you after all of this. So there must be something in there that is worthy of your attention and even affection.

Saddest, be honest with the man. Educate the man, and talk with the man. At the same time figure out your boundaries and make sure you know them and that he knows them. In short, you can have a great marriage but first you both have to define it within the parameters of your boundaries and needs.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
...A couple of days ago we were on a hike and I got left between two groups in the middle of NOWHERE. I have zero sense of direction -- given an opportunity to be lost, I will find it - I had just handed off my pack and jacket to my daughter who was going on, and my H went ahead with my son and his girlfriend and I went BALLISTIC when I caught up with him. He was defensive and non-empathetic. I finally stopped him, looked him in the eye and said "I was terrified. Your number one job as my husband is to keep me safe and I don't care if you 'knew' I was safe -- I didn't." He dismissed it for a while then he came to me and apologized sincerely. ...
One thing that I absolutely suck at is mind-reading. Your H probably isn't too good at it either.

Why shouldn't he have been defensive? He just got busted-on for assuming that Ms. Independent-Minded, Think-&-Do-For-Herself would fare OK if she were a few paces off the lead; and for your part, you'd assumed that he'd make the opposite assumption (that you'd be beset by visions of lions, tiger, bears, axe-murderers, starvation, poison ivy, or being stuck in the woods with too many mosquitos & not enough TP) & rush to your rescue so as not to let it happen. [See? Guys aren't even naturally empathetic about women-in-the-woods. We need to be trained.]

Did you call out to him the moment you lost sight of one another? Or did you sucker-punch him by keeping quiet & storing up the anger to unload on him at the moment of reunion when you caught up to him? [Disclaimer: I'm assuming you didn't call out to him.]

Now, should he have learned by this point in your marriage that you don't like being alone on hikes? Maybe. But why chance it to assumption?

My wife & I have learned that assumption is probably THE single lousiest form of communication that there could ever be.

So much of MarriageBuilders, so much of restoring a marriage, boils down to two words: Better communication.

Synchronize each others' expectations in advance. Keep the assuming to a bare minimum. See how much better things will get.
Posted By: Redeem_Me Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by GloveOil
Why shouldn't he have been defensive? He just got busted-on for assuming that Ms. Independent-Minded, Think-&-Do-For-Herself would fare OK if she were a few paces off the lead; and for your part, you'd assumed that he'd make the opposite assumption (that you'd be beset by visions of lions, tiger, bears, axe-murderers, starvation, poison ivy, or being stuck in the woods with too many mosquitos & not enough TP) & rush to your rescue so as not to let it happen. [See? Guys aren't even naturally empathetic about women-in-the-woods. We need to be trained.]


I think you bring up a great point here and I just wanted to share that I benefited from reading this post, GO. It also made me chuckle cuz it's so true...
Posted By: barbiecat Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 01:35 PM
GO;

Good that you caught the pejorative communication.

T/J;
This type of situation is what has ruined my M.

We have floundered with LBs, DJ's and all kinds of LB withdrawls. All positive intentions fly out the window when you fall into these communication traps.

Behavioral modification can not happen when the communication is negative (in direct or sub concious levels).

The kicker is that it is really hard to identify this yourself and stop. It is years of ingrained communications/behaviors.

I am researching this now. Not a lot of information out there (except the "just stop it" type of advice.)

T/J over...
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 10:03 PM
I'm starting to feel like I'm in one of those horrible nightmares where I show up to give my opening statement to the jury and look down and realize I forgot to put on a shirt.

GO, how did you know I didn't call out? Am I on some sort of reality show where I am being followed or something?

Why didn't I call out?

What is it about building up resentment that works for me? It's like I set traps for him to fail and then think "see, I knew he couldn't/wouldn't/didn't care enough to...." And I have been doing that for years before the A, so it isn't just a post A justification ploy.

And why can't men read minds anyway? Seems like a design defect to me if they are meant to be married to women.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD? Nobody told me being married was going to be hard. It was meant to be sunshine and flowers and cooing babies.

I think my CPU is crashing and I need to ditch the backup and install a new operating system.

JL -- met the player -- OM -- the only thing I admire about him is his technique. I think of him like flesh eating bacteria, and wonder about the relative value of each on the food chain.

Date night tonight. Going to keep it light -- actually, with the crashing CPU, I must keep it light.
Posted By: GloveOil Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
...GO, how did you know I didn't call out? Am I on some sort of reality show where I am being followed or something?

Why didn't I call out?...
Nope, no reality show (which means none of us are gettin' paid for this, dang it). But you can just pretty much be guaranteed that when an exchange such as the one you described transpires, it was on account of lazy communication, low on clarity & high on assumptions.

Like barbiecat says, it's not easy to break bad communication habits. My wife & I still slip up & end up in silly misunderstandings like this once in awhile -- but it's less often. Good news: it's not a born talent -- it's one where you CAN improve if you practice it together.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 11:14 PM
I am reading a new book about breaking bad communication.
Each chapter is a strategy.
McKay, Fanning and Paleg
Couple Skills

It shows you how to break the habits that cause LB's and DJ's. Each strategy is different, you could use one, or ten.

It also shows the theoretical background behind each chapter.

Confesson: I have always had problems with "just don't LB!"... well, HOW do I stop LBing???

It took me years to establish these patterns! They are familiar to me! change is scary! boy, was I clueless.

Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/11/10 11:50 PM
Hi SW,

Well two reasons for posting to you . First is I am in no shape emotionally to advise at all - I've posted about that on 101, and Second, I think you are allowing too many lay people here to esp Just learning, and I know nothing about him - he seems intellegent and concerned - to sway you.

Look SW, life, emotions, are a committment. My son's situation now reempathized that. It is about who you can depend on now period. My wife who lives in a nursing home, well now well I honestly feel we feel closer now than we have been in the last year ever since she had to go there. We are Both concerned for his welfare and his life more than anything else, and that brings us even closer. Life and love is about the one you fell in love with and married and that is an exclusive relationship in God's universe, no matter how many doubts or reservations, or for that matter desires. It Is black and white. If you want him keep him and keep changing, if you don't then stop with the bs and divorce. Simple as that in my mind regardless of the vets. I have been married 41 years now. Still want to die in only her arms when I do. That is called committment. We do not have to be attorneys to have that kind of inate intellegence and human feeling.

Sorry, JL, am not anywhere near an 'expert' her but I think you ought to let her back away for abit... You are good, not that good tho.

Thanks,

Tom
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/12/10 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Hi SW,

Well two reasons for posting to you . First is I am in no shape emotionally to advise at all - I've posted about that on 101, and Second, I think you are allowing too many lay people here to esp Just learning, and I know nothing about him - he seems intellegent and concerned - to sway you.

Sorry, JL, am not anywhere near an 'expert' her but I think you ought to let her back away for abit... You are good, not that good tho.

Thanks,

Tom

But, of course, this is just YOUR lay opinion. sigh


Originally Posted by saddistwife
The end goal (I think) is to be OK with being alone, and choose to be in the M.

You already choose...years ago, didn't you????

Nobody made you get married or held a gun to your head.

What gives you the right to re-choose???

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - A wrongfully "chosen" alone will NEVER be the right choice. It's morally and ethically wrong. It's biblically wrong...if that's your cup of tea. It is a violation of the commitment you made and oaths/vows you CHOSE to take. I happen to know that your ONLY path to happiness, reasonable happiness and/or just contentment is within your marriage. Society and your rationalizations/justifications tell you otherwise but "alone" will be miserable (as would being not alone with another man you don't have the right to be with). Maybe, just maybe, you'll get to be alone again if he dies first (or cheats on you and gives you an justifiable out). Absent that...you are stuck so get to work making the best of it.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/12/10 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Hi SW,

Well two reasons for posting to you . First is I am in no shape emotionally to advise at all - I've posted about that on 101, and Second, I think you are allowing too many lay people here to esp Just learning, and I know nothing about him - he seems intellegent and concerned - to sway you.

Look SW, life, emotions, are a committment. My son's situation now reempathized that. It is about who you can depend on now period. My wife who lives in a nursing home, well now well I honestly feel we feel closer now than we have been in the last year ever since she had to go there. We are Both concerned for his welfare and his life more than anything else, and that brings us even closer. Life and love is about the one you fell in love with and married and that is an exclusive relationship in God's universe, no matter how many doubts or reservations, or for that matter desires. It Is black and white. If you want him keep him and keep changing, if you don't then stop with the bs and divorce. Simple as that in my mind regardless of the vets. I have been married 41 years now. Still want to die in only her arms when I do. That is called committment. We do not have to be attorneys to have that kind of inate intellegence and human feeling.

Sorry, JL, am not anywhere near an 'expert' her but I think you ought to let her back away for abit... You are good, not that good tho.

Thanks,

Tom

Huh????
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/12/10 11:39 PM
PM and Mr. W.,

Sorry. Simply I wanted to try to encourage SW to invest even more in her marriage, but I have this situation with my son now that had me feeling down yesterday. In short, I posted on the 101 forum that he is 24, came back here last Sat. night, lost his job and his older gf threw him out. I am dealing with that with him and feel better today. No reason obviously to interrupt her story.

SW: My only question to you after all you have posted, and what others have said is...do you now feel you would be better off without him, or with him.

Thanks,

Tom
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
SW: My only question to you after all you have posted, and what others have said is...do you now feel you would be better off without him, or with him.

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,

Her FEELINGS are irrelevant.

She is recently wayward and in the fog.

She can't trust her FEELINGS right now.

The more important question is what is RIGHT.

She should figure out and acknowledge to herself what is the RIGHT thing to do...

and THEN do it.

Nobody ever regrets doing the RIGHT thing.
Posted By: stillhere8126 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 12:30 AM
Right on, Mr W...but I already know you are always right... Arent "feelings" what get waywards in this mess in the first place...If people concentrated more on doing the "right" thing this world would be a much better place to live in, wouldnt it?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 12:53 AM
Mr. W.,

Making dinner now for two...my son, and am preparing to talk with him again.

You are right, as I should know. Feelings influence us day to day, honoring our values and committments to do what each of us knows is right overcome those day-to-day feelings and guide us in the long-term.

I thought I had something to offer SW, but now I realize that she is too tough of a person. Nothing against her, but she seems to be running on the fuel of feelings. So will back off - I have my own situation here now.

Thanks,
Tom

Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 12:54 AM
SH.

It is nice to see you...rather to see your post here....again. Hope you are doing well.

Tom
Posted By: stillhere8126 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 12:59 AM
Yeah, I am hanging in there Tom....I hope you are doing well also. smile
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:22 AM
Well if the mutual admiration stuff is over for a while...

SW, tell us about date night!
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:54 AM
The forum is here to pull you out of exactly such places. smile?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 03:09 AM
Thanks Mrs. V - again. I shouldn't have posted. The maelstrom has me, and I just have to ride through it.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 03:22 AM
I understand all too well posting in the midst of the maelstrom, so to speak. Facing it, meeting whatever you're feeling head on, assessing it, dealing with it, using it to drive you in a positive way - just make sure that happens. Don't get lost in it, because that doesn't help anybody.

So if you're going to sit this one out from the forum, do it in a good, MB way, all right? Then come back and tell us about it once you're on the other side.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 05:11 AM
You are a dear, and thank you. Not to worry. I know how to ride the dark horse, and I will come back when the ride is over so you all can tell me what it means and what to do with with what it means.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 01:16 PM
Ok, here is what happened. Hopefully someone will tell me what to do before I do something stupid like pack my bag and call my lawyer. Or maybe that wouldn't be so stupid.

Remember H changed the password on his computer. I didn't press it per the advice here.

On Wed. his laptop was sitting no the kitchen counter. Mine was upstairs or something. S19's girlfriend wanted to print her boarding pass and asked me H's password. I said I didn't know it. S19 asked "why not Mom?" I said "because your dad doesn't trust me."

GF went to H who whispered the password to her. She gave me a strange look, logged in and printed her boarding pass. I continued unloading the dishwasher like nothing happened, but I can feel my face flaming just writing about it.

So I let it go because I was confident that's what you all would tell me to do and went on date night which was actually fun except for the hour he educated me about baseball and football, but I took for the team so to speak.

Last night, I described what happened re: his laptop to H, told him that I totally understood why he doesn't trust me, etc., but when I feel humiliated like that it takes my love for him away. All he said was "the password is fu**you." S15 has known the new password for a month.

GF will tell her parents, their kids go to the same school my S15 is starting next week, who knows who they will tell. I don't have a social bone in my body and could not be further out of the school loop which was fine with S19, but S15 is built differently -- he wants me at stuff. Guess how many parents in his class I will voluntarily meet, much less talk to or try to befriend? None.

I always wonder when I hear "expose, expose, expose" if anyone gives any thought to the teenagers involved and how the public knowledge that their mother is a wh*** will impact them with their friends and their families.

I guess I am about to find out.

Flashback time. Petty, public humiliation.

H & I haven't spoken since. I slept in another room.

Too bad really as I was feeling warmer towards him than I have in a very long time.

Help.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 01:29 PM
The thing about roller coasters is that after the long slow climb to breathtaking heights where the view is amazing and all your troubles and cares seem miles below you it is inevitably followed by a plunge at breakneck speed headlong into the darkness that seems as if it will be the ruin of your very soul....

And then things level out, you go on and start the next long slow climb...

Recovery is called a roller coaster for a reason.

Mark
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 01:31 PM
SW -

Thanks for posting. Honestly, I'm not sure what to advise. (Surprising, right? I can usually think of some $.02 to give!)

And I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but could you confirm if I have this correct?

1) BH changes password to something more "expressive"
2) BH tells it to S15's GF
3) GF finding it out will result in news of your infidelity spreading
4) This is your BH's fault? (= the "petty, public humiliation" ?)

Can you remind me again of what sort of exposure occurred? To whom, how was it done, etc.?

I would definitely say that the fallout (not speaking, sleeping apart) could have been avoided/dealt with better, but I'll have to think on that for a while after I hear some more from you.

(Sorry, I've got a touch of the sleep deprivation.)

Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
The thing about roller coasters is that after the long slow climb to breathtaking heights where the view is amazing and all your troubles and cares seem miles below you it is inevitably followed by a plunge at breakneck speed headlong into the darkness that seems as if it will be the ruin of your very soul....

And then things level out, you go on and start the next long slow climb...

Recovery is called a roller coaster for a reason.

Mark

This is also very true. It's killer, but it eventually starts to get better.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:02 PM
Agree it's a roller coaster...

and maybe, just maybe the glass is half full (try not to look for reasons it won't work or you want to leave but instead for reasons to stay).

The fact that your husband made his password "fu" certainly is an indication he was in a dark place when he set it up. It's been awhile for me (over 5 years) but I have a good idea where he was in that moment.

Now he's shared it with you and you have access.

HE TOLD YOU.

That's good, isn't it????

Openness and honesty.

It's likely he'll change it soon as he's realized the ridiculousness of it. Hopefully, he'll share the new password with you also as he builds trust for you (maybe he won't because he's emailing or posting somewhere for support himself and wants privacy - WHICH YOU SHOULD HONOR FOR HIM RIGHT NOW)

Instead of being upset...

be compassionate recognizing the dark place he was in and that YOU had a part of putting him in it.

IMO, you shouldn't just be "sucking up" the consequences of your actions (harboring anger and resentment thereupon), you should be accepting of them. Regardless of where you go or what you do...the consequences are gonna follow you for some time. It'll be much easier on YOU if YOU can adopt the attitude that you brought much of this upon yourself and it's OK.

I'm not saying 3-5 years down the road that those consequences should include daily, weekly or even monthly harassment by your spouse that you need to accept. He's your spouse and by then should be your supportive mate in a LOVING relationship. But there will likely be some consequences that come from outside your marriage for years to come...so get used to it.

We all mess up...it's how we deal with cleaning up our messes that really define us.

Mr. W
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:10 PM
Good post, Mr. W!

SW, please pay attention to this distinction:

Originally Posted by MrWondering
IMO, you shouldn't just be "sucking up" the consequences of your actions (harboring anger and resentment thereupon), you should be accepting of them. Regardless of where you go or what you do...the consequences are gonna follow you for some time. It'll be much easier on YOU if YOU can adopt the attitude that you brought much of this upon yourself and it's OK.

Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Instead of being upset...

be compassionate recognizing the dark place he was in and that YOU had a part of putting him in it.

IMO, you shouldn't just be "sucking up" the consequences of your actions (harboring anger and resentment thereupon), you should be accepting of them. Regardless of where you go or what you do...the consequences are gonna follow you for some time. It'll be much easier on YOU if YOU can adopt the attitude that you brought much of this upon yourself and it's OK.

I'm not saying 3-5 years down the road that those consequences should include daily, weekly or even monthly harassment by your spouse that you need to accept. He's your spouse and by then should be your supportive mate in a LOVING relationship. But there will likely be some consequences that come from outside your marriage for years to come...so get used to it.

We all mess up...it's how we deal with cleaning up our messes that really define us.

Mr. W

I read SadWife's post, went away, and came back to post something similar...

SW the way I see this incident is that you have a pride issue. Humility is needed to develope true repentence. You are a high achiever and not accustomed to being humble. It is painful...but you need to sink into the humility and then it is better. Humility is a different animal than degradation which is NOT to be tolerated....but honestly I'm not seeing that from the incident you described.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:30 PM
OK, got it. I'll drop the matter and go about my business today. The incident was a huge withdrawal from my LB but I've been operating in the red for years. I can do it a while longer.

Mrs. V -- I told my kids and family about my A. It is certainly not H's fault that I am fodder for the school gossip machine. I truly, seriously, do not care what people say about me, but I do worry for my S15. He's not as strong as S19.

I know parents are talking about my A because the father of one of S19's friends asked me at a graduation event who the OM was. Now there's a conversation starter, right?

Nothing to be done about it.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
OK, got it. I'll drop the matter and go about my business today. The incident was a huge withdrawal from my LB but I've been operating in the red for years. I can do it a while longer.

Mrs. V -- I told my kids and family about my A. It is certainly not H's fault that I am fodder for the school gossip machine. I truly, seriously, do not care what people say about me, but I do worry for my S15. He's not as strong as S19.

I know parents are talking about my A because the father of one of S19's friends asked me at a graduation event who the OM was. Now there's a conversation starter, right?

Nothing to be done about it.

Wait. A man asked you who is OM? As in 'who is the man you had an affair with?' Or as in 'Who is (actual name of OM)?'?

And yes people will talk. They eventually stop. Your son will survive.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 02:42 PM
SW, I am a teacher who had an A with another teacher who was also DD's guitar teacher. And my kids both went to our school. OM left, but I was still there, as were my kids, and they and lots of other people knew all about my A. Yeah, it stunk. But here's what I did: I just did what I would have done had I never cheated (I had to - I worked there). I talked to parents about school and football and their kids. I taught my classes. When DD had a few bad days, I went to talk to her teacher and briefly explained how the whole business was affecting her. I willed myself to be oblivious to the gossip. And on the odd occasion when someone did ask, I just said something generic like, "I definitely made some bad choices, but I am so thankful to have the chance to rectify those choices." Eventually (actually it didn't take long) I was boring to talk about because we were recovering and the gossip didn't fluster me. Did it hurt? Yes, but then the answer to that would have been not to have an A. My kids came through it fine. We talked when they needed to talk. I didn't bring it up unless someone else asked.

As far as the password thing goes, is there a reason that DS's girlfriend needed to know "my husband doesn't trust me"? Honestly, it sounds like blaming. Why not say, "He recently changed it and hasn't told me yet."?
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I said "I didn't know it." S19 asked "why not Mom?" I said "because your dad doesn't trust me."

I wasn't there so all I have to go on is what you wrote above but this sounded pretty catty to me. You shared a fact about your marriage with your s19 and his friend that you really didn't have to. You could have said you didn't remember it and ask your father instead of throwing in the "dad doesn't trust you" part. Then...when BH revealed the password it wouldn't have had the same context and though a strange password...would have otherwise been innocuous to teenagers. Instead your attitude made the "fu" password only that much more poignant.

Sucks for you I'm sure...but really not all his fault.




Originally Posted by saddestwife
So I let it go because I was confident that's what you all would tell me to do and went on date night which was actually fun...


Date night...really. That's another glass half full moment. That's really awesome. Do you realize that not all WS's get that? Many get kicked to the curb immediately upon being busted. Don't you feel cherished at all? I mean you degraded and disrespected your husband in the most vile and disturbing of manners and yet he still sees value in you and your marriage and is willing to date you??? How many people do you have in your life that love you enough to be able to forgive you (in time) for that big a transgression? Don't you see....deep down your husband loves you. Reconciliation after betrayal is one of the most loving ACTIONS a person can undertake. Sure there are wounds on the outside and he's not all romantically lovey-dovey right now...but deep down, HE CHERISHES YOU AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.




Originally Posted by saddestwife
Last night, I described what happened re: his laptop to H, told him that I totally understood why he doesn't trust me, etc., but when I feel humiliated like that it takes my love for him away.

Again...you brought this upon yourself. First by having the affair and second by making the "dad doesn't trust me comment". [not to mention...why should he trust you right now....even here you are still contemplating divorce. Maybe he's contemplating it too...in private, as is his right]


Originally Posted by saddestwife
I always wonder when I hear "expose, expose, expose" if anyone gives any thought to the teenagers involved and how the public knowledge that their mother is a wh*** will impact them with their friends and their families.

First off...you aren't a wh*** TODAY, are you? Trust me, your kids parents have skeletons and issues in their closets as well and they will hardly be focused on yours. Rumors and gossip may last a few years but as long as you stay married and especially if you endeavor and succeed at rebuilding a loving marriage obvious to the world the rumors and gossip will pass.

Second, when you do the right thing you don't know what the end result will be but often it results in some positives which help balance out some of the consequences. My wife has taking our experiences and used them to counsel here and many friends in real life about infidelity or just marital issues, in general. Infidelity is everywhere and now that a few people around town know about your situation...it's much more likely that someone you least expect is going to approach you with questions about what to do. Especially if they see you and your husband in a seeming great recovery. You just can't know what good will come from this right now...but getting to the point where you are OK saying "I WAS a wh*** back then, but not today or ever again" helps open yourself up to positive feedback loop that is likely to occur if you let it.



Originally Posted by saddestwife
Flashback time. Petty, public humiliation.

It's only humiliation if you allow other people opinions to matter and/or define you.



Originally Posted by saddestwife
H & I haven't spoken since. I slept in another room.

How unfortunate. You want compassion and empathy from him, yet offer none. Oh, the plight of the FWW







That being said...

what's your plan to rebuild your husband's trust and get him to fall romantically in love with you again???

You realize once he's in love with you again...the FULL program will be much easier to get him to adopt.

W

Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 03:13 PM
Just had to add this quickly...

All this talk about YOUR humiliation...

What about your husband's?????


All your son's friends and parents know that his wife (you) cheated on him and he's not divorcing you.

He appears quite the cuckold, doesn't he?

How humiliating FOR HIM.

W
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I always wonder when I hear "expose, expose, expose" if anyone gives any thought to the teenagers involved and how the public knowledge that their mother is a wh*** will impact them with their friends and their families.
I wonder if the wayward gave any thought to the impact on the teenagers involved before having an affair??

And so what you are saying the impact is the fault of the one who exposed, not the one who commited the crime?? Really??

And actually, I know two families where there were affairs and it wasn't exposed~everyone just suspected what had happened but no one talked about it and I think the impact is worse in that case, when the kids need to keep it a secret... I believe Dr H talks about this.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I always wonder when I hear "expose, expose, expose" if anyone gives any thought to the teenagers involved and how the public knowledge that their mother is a wh*** will impact them with their friends and their families.

Surely you jest. Did the adulterer give any thought to the embarrassment she would bring upon her family by committing adultery? By acting like a wh***? The blame for the the embarrassment falls completely and totally on the head of the adulterer, not the exposer. The family members of cheaters do them no favors by keeping the affair a secret. The family is embarrassed because of the cheating not because it was exposed. They are not obliged to ENABLE the adulterer by keeping her dirty secret.

SW, some days you sound so lucid and then you post foggy statements like this, which is so disappointing....
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
OK, got it. I'll drop the matter and go about my business today. The incident was a huge withdrawal from my LB but I've been operating in the red for years. I can do it a while longer.

When you say that kind of crap it's as though you think your choice was somewhat more justifiable than MOST wayward spouses or something.

This is NOT an uncommon problem. Almost all fww's struggle with accepting 100% of the responsibility for making the choice to cheat. I heard Dr. Harley speak of it on one of his old radio programs wherein he stated something to the effect that even years out in seeming recovered marriages that former wayward wives still cling to some kind of notion that their cheating was, in whole or in part, their husband's fault.

They think....Had he not neglected them, had he fulfilled his husband duties to lead, protect, cherish, had he just been home more or been more jealous and protective of me, etc...
but for HIS failures...I, the former wayward wife, NEVER would have had an affair.


The TRUTH is you are 100% responsible for your choices to commit adultery. 100%. It happened and YOU choose it. You had other options besides cheating to address the issues in your marriage. Sure your husband may be 50% (or more) responsible for the issues in your marriage pre-affair, but he did not hold a gun to your head and make you cheat. It's ALL YOU.

Further...it's doubtful his LoveBank balance was very high for you pre-affair and it's certainly not high now post-affair.

There is NOTHING that he has ever done that gave you the right to make that choice to cheat.

Owning it...is a great place to start recovery.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Owning it...is a great place to start recovery.

Mr. Wondering

Amen. Great post, MrW!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Ok, here is what happened. Hopefully someone will tell me what to do before I do something stupid like pack my bag and call my lawyer. Or maybe that wouldn't be so stupid.

Remember H changed the password on his computer. I didn't press it per the advice here.

On Wed. his laptop was sitting no the kitchen counter. Mine was upstairs or something. S19's girlfriend wanted to print her boarding pass and asked me H's password. I said I didn't know it. S19 asked "why not Mom?" I said "because your dad doesn't trust me."

GF went to H who whispered the password to her. She gave me a strange look, logged in and printed her boarding pass. I continued unloading the dishwasher like nothing happened, but I can feel my face flaming just writing about it.

So I let it go because I was confident that's what you all would tell me to do and went on date night which was actually fun except for the hour he educated me about baseball and football, but I took for the team so to speak.

Last night, I described what happened re: his laptop to H, told him that I totally understood why he doesn't trust me, etc., but when I feel humiliated like that it takes my love for him away. All he said was "the password is fu**you." S15 has known the new password for a month.

GF will tell her parents, their kids go to the same school my S15 is starting next week, who knows who they will tell. I don't have a social bone in my body and could not be further out of the school loop which was fine with S19, but S15 is built differently -- he wants me at stuff. Guess how many parents in his class I will voluntarily meet, much less talk to or try to befriend? None.

I always wonder when I hear "expose, expose, expose" if anyone gives any thought to the teenagers involved and how the public knowledge that their mother is a wh*** will impact them with their friends and their families.

I guess I am about to find out.

Flashback time. Petty, public humiliation.

H & I haven't spoken since. I slept in another room.

Too bad really as I was feeling warmer towards him than I have in a very long time.

Help.

I feel compelled to post a response here. You are learning that your actions have consequences, and that they extend to family and beyond. But SW, as people repeatedly remind me here on this forum, this is not about your feelings. Nope. Not at all. They are totally unimportant. You own up and live with this. You did it. Your only response should be not resentment or anger but dedication to helping your H and improving yourself and learning new ways to react to things that are not ego-protective. As long as he or your family sees you becoming resentful or angry about their feelings that are the result of the damage you did, they will not heal. Your reputation to friends and family means nothing in the larger sense. You will in the long run only be judged by any of them by the actions you take to improve yourself and dedicate yourself to the feelings of others. They already know that you are self-focused and ego-protective. That is who they have come to know. Their respect for you is not as great as you may like to think. They want to see something different, so you need to be something different. Yes, you feel humiliated, because what you did was humiliating. What is so inappropriate or wrong about that? Don't you want your children or friends or especially your husband to think that adultery is something other than humiliating?

The word "humiliate" means to be made humble. That is actually exactly what you need, right? When you are humble, people will have a chance to actually love you.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Owning it...is a great place to start recovery.

Mr. Wondering

Amen. Great post, MrW!

Thanks...

but whatta we know...

we're just a couple of old bitter betrayed spouses.

grumble

[actually I see saddist struggle as what would have been my own had I been the one that cheated on Mrs. Wondering. Attorney's don't admit fault...we argue and try to logic our way out of fault. Her "logic" has her pointing a finger at her husband right now oblivious to the fact that when she does that she literally has three fingers pointing back at herself. The fact she's sticking around and not fighting back now is encouraging. I probably would have been more stubborn or conflict avoided, i.e. -LONG GONE. She's got better listening skills than I.]
Posted By: Hitch2007 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 04:31 PM
Hi SW

Just wanted to pop onto your thread and thank you for the comments you made earlier this week.

You were right I needed to get a grip and concentrate on knowing myself, I feel sooo much better and clearer and have a lovely weekend planned.

I have read through your thread today, jeez you have had some serious 2x4's, I reckon I got off lightly!

Hope all is going well with you. How you doing with your boundary setting?

Hitch x
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Hitch2007
you have had some serious 2x4's

I noticed that..... but I keep coming back for more.

Sometimes I think I have the boundary thing figured out and sometimes I feel like my head is going to explode.

I find it helps me to stop and say "who are you? Are you a liar or are you honest? Are you uncaring or are you compassionate and empathic? Are you mean or are you kind? Are you selfish or are you taking care of yourself?"

BTW -- on the self care thing, I didn't mean to suggest men don't live sacrificially as well. I think women are more prone to confuse selfish and self care -- my mother might have accidentally taught me those are the same things. One of my favorite sayings is "'No' is a complete sentence." Women feel the need to explain themselves because we are hard wired to nurture relationships and build consensus, but with explanations comes an invitation to cross whatever boundary we are trying to set. It happened with my OM -- "no, because I am married." The "because" was in invitation.

Maybe it is a generational thing -- I was in the first wave of female professionals told we could have a fulfilling and successful professional career and three babies and if you can't manage that, there is something wrong with you. Trying to juggle all that was impossible for me -- I lived a crisis driven life, and a crisis driven life does not lend itself to boundary setting. When I started practicing law, there were judges who required the women lawyers to wear a tie in their court. Maternity dresses were not made with ties. Being a woman was confusing.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I said "I didn't know it." S19 asked "why not Mom?" I said "because your dad doesn't trust me."

I wasn't there so all I have to go on is what you wrote above but this sounded pretty catty to me.

It was an awkward situation because my H was sitting in the den behind us and could hear everything. I expected him to tell GF the password, and when he didn't, I wasn't sure what to do. H told me he doesn't want me to have his passwords because he doesn't trust me. Fair enough. I thought the truth was the best answer. In hindsight, maybe not.

Originally Posted by MrWondering
How many people do you have in your life that love you enough to be able to forgive you (in time) for that big a transgression?

None. Don't think I'm not grateful. I am.

Originally Posted by MrWondering
even here you are still contemplating divorce.

I'm not really. I talk a good story, but in the end, I won't unless H asks me to. Sure, every once in a while I want to make a break for the door, but I tell you all that, not him.

Originally Posted by MrWondering
it's much more likely that someone you least expect is going to approach you with questions about what to do.


I actually have a good friend who just ended a 7 year affair (how in the world someone could do it for 7 years is a mystery to me) and I am going to talk with her about this program as soon as I get back. Her H had an A ten years ago and she still attacks him, sometimes physically, about it. He has no idea about her A -- they never dealt with any of it, one reason I am so determined not to sweep this under our already full rug.


Originally Posted by saddestwife
Flashback time. Petty, public humiliation.

The issue wasn't so much the embarrassment of the moment. The issue was the flashback to times in the past. Sure, if I hadn't had the A this particular incident wouldn't have happened so it is my fault it did. But it was still an LB. Maybe I should have let it go.

Originally Posted by saddestwife
I slept in another room.

I have a seriously slow "feeling" processing speed. I got thrown, I withdrew. Old habits die hard, but they can die.

We talked about the matter again this morning, so pull out your 2x4's.

I response to my embarrassment, H raised Mr.W's humiliation point -- i.e. "you, wife, humiliated me in front of your friends a thousand times worse than anything I have ever done. This is nothing in comparison."

I said "I did the worst possible thing a spouse can do to the other, I hurt you as deeply as it is possible to hurt you, I will regret it until the day I die, I am horribly sorry and I will do whatever I can to make it up to you. I will never, ever again hurt you that way. I know you can�t believe me right now, but I hope some day you will."

Got your 2x4's ready?

"BUT, you will ALWAYS have that card to play and it will ALWAYS trump whatever I am feeling. We have GOT to get out of this dynamic where we are collecting chits on each other and start taking care of each other instead. A win/lose model got us where we are today -- it flat doesn't work."

Is that not admitting fault and pointing a finger at H? I don�t know. That is a sincere question. If I don�t tell him when he is LBing, how is he to know? Should I not tell him? True, if I hadn�t had the A, none of this would have happened but I still have an LB and its still in the red and not telling him when he�s making withdrawals doesn�t seem right either.

I really didn�t view the discussion with H as being about the password. I am trying to get out of the win/lose model. In the end it was a good conversation.

Which brings me to the issue that I think GM is struggling with a bit -- how do you give from an empty plate?

I believe in the basic soundness of the MB system.

My LB has been in the red for YEARS.

I need to help my H heal.

I need to continue to meet his EN's. According to him, prior to the A I was doing a splendid job at that. Aside from the small matter of infidelity, I was a pretty good wife on the surface. I was a terrible wife in that I didn�t tell him what I needed from him in a way that he could hear.

I need to teach him how to meet my EN's.

I need to call him on his LB's, AO's and DJ's being the biggest. I need to tell him what my boundaries are and enforce them consistently and kindly.

Calling him on his LB's feels inconsistent with healing and meeting his EN�s.

There is a rhythm to this that I don�t have yet.

Originally Posted by MrWondering
what's your plan to rebuild your husband's trust and get him to fall romantically in love with you again???

I�m glad you asked this as I have been feeling like I need to get back to the basics.

Trust: access to email, etc. Tell him where I am and when I am coming back. Not sure what else to do here.

EP�s: I�m still struggling with this one, believe it or not. I�ve only come up with two.

1. I will only talk to H, SteveH, or my pdoc about my M.
2. No girls� night out for a while.

I�ve asked H about this, and 1. is the only one he cares about. He doesn�t want GPS, keylogger or any of that stuff. He�s going dove hunting with S15 first weekend of Sept. I can�t go because they are staying 4 men in one hotel room. I don�t want him to worry � thoughts?

Romantic Love: H has a way higher EN for PA than I do so am focusing on that. I don�t have to feel it. I just have to do it. His biggest LB is O & H and am trying to do that too, although, as I set out above, I�m not sure how that is supposed to work at this juncture. SF, check.

I am talking to SteveH again next week � the cell phone coverage here is so spotty I decided to wait until we went home. After that, hopefully H will talk to him and we will both be more on the same page.

Do you think it would be OK for me to print out some of the posts here and ask him to read them?

Originally Posted by GreenMile
They already know that you are self-focused and ego-protective. That is who they have come to know.

GM, I can honestly say that not a single person in my life, including my H, would agree with that. I am a caregiver by nature. My empathy level is so high that on date night my H compared me to a submarine with state of the art sonar. Needs? What are those? I gave and gave and gave and gave and when my Taker came out, it was rapacious. I didn�t have the faintest idea who I was or what I stood for because I spent my childhood taking care of my mother�s needs, and my adult life taking care of my H and children�s needs. I was raised to believe that my value as a person was directly related to my GPA, SAT, and salary, and on some level I still believe that. Sure I have an intellectual ego � I�m smart. So what. That isn�t even on my list of core values.

I did a selfish thing. I am not a selfish person.

I did a cruel thing. I am not a mean person.

I did a dishonest thing. I am not a dishonest person.

All I can do � all anyone can do � is try to fix what I have broken.
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
A man asked you who is OM? As in 'who is the man you had an affair with?' Or as in 'Who is (actual name of OM)?'?

I think he was asking how I knew OM -- didn't follow up though. Just shook my head and changed the subject.

I thought it was a little bold, but whatever.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
I wonder if the wayward gave any thought to the impact on the teenagers involved before having an affair??

Don�t be silly SusieQ. Waywards don�t think. And since we are super people who can scale buildings unaided and fly through the air and make ourselves invisible, we are never going to get caught so even if we we were to have the odd thought now and again, it wouldn�t matter.

Admittedly though, the impact the A was having on my ability to parent my kids was probably the most important factor in ending it and sticking with NC. I'm not sure it matters how I got there. The important thing was to get there.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The blame for the the embarrassment falls completely and totally on the head of the adulterer, not the exposer.

Good to see you Mel � thought for sure you had me on ignore by now.

You completely misunderstood me. I am keenly, painfully, horribly, nauseatingly aware of the fact that it was me and me alone who put my kids in this position.

Exposure didn't come up in my case. I told my kids about the A early on because I think they deserve to know what the heck is going on and, more importantly, I do not want them blaming their father for any part of this. I knew they would tell their friends who would tell their parents, etc., and that is all, every bit of it, on me.

Some of the stuff I have read on exposing seems pretty global. I didn't mean to suggest that the exposer has any culpability -- just that if it can be done with an eye towards protecting the children from the inevitable fall out, that seems preferable. Sort of a "need to know" standard. It doesn't apply to me so I have no way of knowing how it might play out.

Teenagers are teenagers. I worry. It's really one of my best skills.

And now I really am going to go do the $%&$%^& laundry.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
Some of the stuff I have read on exposing seems pretty global. I didn't mean to suggest that the exposer has any culpability -- just that if it can be done with an eye towards protecting the children from the inevitable fall out, that seems preferable. Sort of a "need to know" standard.
It seems like you are minimizing your previous statement criticizing those who expose.

The reason that exposure is so heavily advised here is pretty simple: It is the best shot a BS has of ending the A....hence a very good way to protect the child/teen/BS/family further pain and suffering...more fallout, however you want to say it.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "need to know" comment. What have you seen suggested other than giving an age appropriate explanation that the WS is having an A, that this is wrong, and it is the reason for tension in the home??
Posted By: not2fun Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 09:39 PM
Quote
I didn't mean to suggest that the exposer has any culpability -- just that if it can be done with an eye towards protecting the children from the inevitable fall out, that seems preferable.

The ONLY thing that would be preferable is there not being an affair to begin with. And do not think for one moment that every BS doesn't worry about any fallout or reprocusions. It's what keeps many in FEAR of exposing to begin with. The only thing the BS needs to really worry about protecting their children from is the WS destructive behavior.

Your initial statement really echos YOUR shame masked behind concerns for children........

Not2fun

Ps.......when nearly all had come to light in my sitch, I told my H of a new email account that I had opened when I registered to MB. I of course, did NOT want my H to find out about this place as I was in the midst of battling his affair. I then gave him the password......it was "stupid p-ick". I am willing to bet many BS's weren't much different than your H and I........



Sort of a "need to know" standard. It doesn't apply to me so I have no way of knowing how it might play out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
[of the stuff I have read on exposing seems pretty global. I didn't mean to suggest that the exposer has any culpability -- just that if it can be done with an eye towards protecting the children from the inevitable fall out, that seems preferable. Sort of a "need to know" standard. It doesn't apply to me so I have no way of knowing how it might play out.

It is "global" for good reason, though. The more people who know about the affair, the more people to hold the affairee accountable. More is better in this case. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so getting the word out is always a good thing.

Exposure is good "for the children" [love that bumper sticker grin] because the more exposed an affair, the more likely the affair is killed and stays killed. A little minor embarrassment is a small price to pay for an intact family, which is the most likely result from exposure.

As Steve Harley once said about exposure, "do everything short of taking out a billboard." laugh
Posted By: Hitch2007 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/13/10 11:42 PM

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 76 Hi SW

Great post!! You are a 2x4 warrior!!

I am so patient right now its untrue. I came home tonight after having a bottle of wine with a girlfriend and my H is in the bedroom next door, it took all my strength not to lunge into his room and give him the biggest hug ever. I miss him

SW - Do you live in the US?

Hitch x
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/21/10 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by not2fun
Your initial statement really echos YOUR shame masked behind concerns for children......

If this were true, I would not have voluntarily told my children. I would have allowed them to believe the very logical conclusion they had reached -- that I had decided to end the M because of the way my H treats me. That is what they believed, and I chose to set them straight.

Assuming that I am not trying to do the right thing IS NOT HELPING ME.

So... I'm trying so hard to get it, but I can't.

There is a great line out of the movie "Ordinary People" where the surviving son says "I don't want to feel anything because when I feel, all I feel is bad."

I don't feel much of anything, and when I think about the A, I don't feel the slightest bit bad.

I think H deserves this, every bit of it. I think it is his turn to suffer at my hands. I think the playing field might just now be leveled.

Yea, I let him treat me that way. So what? He had an obligation not to. He made a vow to love, honor and cherish me. I made a vow not to sleep with other men.

Why does one vow trump the other? Where is the flaw in the logic of "you treated me like an object so...."

I cannot disconnect the circumstances in the M from the A.

I cannot, I cannot, I cannot. And it is NOT from lack of effort.

I say to H "I am so sorry. I should have divorced you." And he HATES that. He says "no, you should have told me how unhappy you were and worked things out." I did that, over and over. It's like he sees some middle ground I could have taken but didn't.

I get why on a societal basis my A trumps everything. But I don't get it in my heart.

Posted By: writer1 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/21/10 03:34 AM
So, you are now operating under the assumption that two wrongs make a right?
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/21/10 04:51 AM
You are engaged in the logical fallacy of binary thinking. Both your affair and the way he treated you can be wrong in the universe.

The difference is, you are here, at a site named Marriage Builders.

If you want to cry and moan about your husband, this probably is not the proper website for that.

If you don't want to fix your marriage, if you don't want to accept in your heart the damaging impact of your affair, you are free to do so.

However, to expect folks who are participants at a site called Marriage Builders to cheer you on is rather unrealistic.

Work on it or not, I really don't care. Feel it in your heart or not, again, it doesn't change my life or the lives of those responding to you here.

One thing that I think makes an affair a bit worse. Dr Harley says that those who have both been betrayed and have been raped say the betrayal by their spouse is the worst thing they've experienced.

So if you want to continue to claim that your husband had it coming, if that's what you believe in your heart, then do your husband and favor and leave him now so he can get relief from your abusive heart-set.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/21/10 05:54 AM
Saddest,

I feel so sad. YOu stated earlier that you were used to a win-lose type of life due to your profession. I can see that.

I also understand that how he treated you colored your thinking about him.

But, did how you think about him mean that you should think less of yourself? That your children should think less of you? That you should bring dishonor to yourself?

This is not about making things equal (leveling the playing field), it is at best about balance and that does not mean equal.

I think you are here because you are in anguish about what you did to...YOURSELF. You should be. You are not so much in anguish about what you did to your marriage or your H, because you did not think much of either. Now you see the possibility of relieving your anguish IF you can make the marriage good. But, that will only happen IF your H joins in on this.

You are right he should have paid more attention, been more into the marriage, less angry. What is he doing now? He was wrong in how he treated you, is he treating you better?

And you, young lady, how are you treating him?

You said
Quote
I say to H "I am so sorry. I should have divorced you." And he HATES that. He says "no, you should have told me how unhappy you were and worked things out." I did that, over and over. It's like he sees some middle ground I could have taken but didn't.
There is NO MIDDLE GROUND Saddest, none. At least that is my opinion.

This whole thing is very much like breakfast. The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. Your H and you needed to be and now need to be committed to recovery. His statement is disenginous (sp?) It was not all up to you to solve HIS problems. In fact it was NEVER up to you to solve HIS problems or address his behavior other than to walk away.

Your A was a complete betrayal of YOURSELF and your marriage. Only you can take credit for that. BUT, now and the future is about how each of you treat the other. Now honesty is required.

I realize you are probably still in withdrawal as your No Contact with OM wasn't all that long ago. However, you both need to sit down and discuss (not what has happened or even what will happen) how each of you views a good an rewarding marriage. You (both of you) need to focus on setting the bar where it needs to be for both of you to be happy, and THEN you can begin to discuss how to get over that bar. Don't do this until you both see the vision of the marriage that makes you both happy.

Oh, and radical honesty is for your spouse. You don't owe outsiders an explanation of your marriage or your decisions.

Saddest, you were/are correct, this is not like a court case where someone has to win and the other lose. This is a case where you both need to win.

Hang in there girl.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/21/10 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
What is he doing now? He was wrong in how he treated you, is he treating you better?

And you, young lady, how are you treating him?

We are treating each other very carefully and kindly. It's very different. Communication, although imperfect, at least exists. I ask him how he is doing with things, and what I can do to make him feel safe which seems like the emergency tourniquet needed.

I know his biggest fear is that I am going to leave him.

I went to see my pdoc yesterday and then H and I had a telling conversation. He said next time he wants me to ask my pdoc what H should be doing differently to make me happy. Hours later I thought "I should be telling him what to do to make me happy -- it shouldn't be coming from my pdoc." So I need to think about what those things are and communicate them to my H. I think I'll do the EN Questionnaire again this weekend. And maybe ask him to do it again too?

We also had a Greenmile inspired conversation last night. I was telling him something I am afraid of in the future, and he tried to fix it by assuring me my fear would never come to pass, which I translate into "you are being irrational". This has historically been the biggest LBer for me. You can imagine how I react to the suggestion I am irrational. I told him that when he tries to fix my feelings I can't trust him with them, that I experienced that as a DJ, and that mostly I just want to be heard. So there is some progress. Having an emotional language helps enormously.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Your A was a complete betrayal of YOURSELF and your marriage. Only you can take credit for that. BUT, now and the future is about how each of you treat the other. Now honesty is required.

Understanding the self betrayal was huge -- I self sabotoge a lot. H says he doesn't want to get hit with any more shrapnel.

Maybe I need to let the "getting it" part go for now and focus on today and the future. I have been thinking that unless I "get it" in my heart that the M has no chance and Enlightened Ex is right and I should let H go. But that may be my linear, logical thinking getting in my way again -- check the "getting it" box and move on to step 3. H doesn't seem to need to talk about the A, nor does he seem to be terribly torn up about it, but you never know with men. H seems very focused on being a good husband. I am very focused on being a good wife. Maybe I am just screwing that up by obsessing about trying to feel something I just don't feel.

I am fearful that there is something terribly wrong with me morally/emotionally that I don't feel worse.

Maybe I should just accept where we are today, let go of the stuff from the past and think only on the future. I'm going to have a global conversation with H after we take our S19 to college and see if I can get him on board with MB. To date he has been skeptical. I need a power point presentation and a spreadsheet or something.

Talking to SteveH again on the 1st.

Thanks you all.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/21/10 11:41 PM
Saddest,

Your "feelings" will be the last thing to come. However, they will come faster if you decide what you need to have a rewarding marriage. They will come faster if you know what your H needs to have a rewarding marriage. You said
Quote
H seems very focused on being a good husband. I am very focused on being a good wife. Maybe I am just screwing that up by obsessing about trying to feel something I just don't feel.
This is great, in fact it is better than great.

Now the only thing left to do, is finally focus the intent on the part of both of productively so that neither of you are using your effort in ways that are not appreciated by the other. This is really Dr. H's thesis. Well intentioned people often don't understand their spouses needs and how they need them met, thus they work hard, but get frustrated because their efforts are not recognized.

Quote
Maybe I need to let the "getting it" part go for now and focus on today and the future. I have been thinking that unless I "get it" in my heart that the M has no chance

Saddest, you will "get it" as you learn more about yourself and your H. You will "get it" as you focus on being a person he is happy with, and he works on being happy with you. You will "get it" when the time comes. You two are just starting recovery and Harley says it takes on average two years for people to recover from an affair. You are just getting started young lady. smile Have patience with yourself.

Now if you want a powerpoint presentation, I think we can arrange it. But, what I think you need more is a plan based on your desires and your H desires. Discuss that, outline it, and then put it in powerpoint, if it helps you remember what you are after.

Saddest, in someways people like you are the hardest to get to because you want to argue and put things into a contextual frame that is not consistent with your goals. On the other hand people like you often make the most successful recoveries and have the best marriages. You just need to see the positives in your situation and learn to really appreciate them.

Must go but think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/23/10 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Harley says it takes on average two years for people to recover from an affair.

This hit me like a ton of bricks. "People". I'm a person. I have to recover too. I thought it was only him.

Wow.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Well intentioned people often don't understand their spouses needs and how they need them met, thus they work hard, but get frustrated because their efforts are not recognized.

We talked about this last night. He has been giving me a lot of domestic support which I REALLY appreciate, so don't get me wrong.

However, my number one EN is for conversation. I would prefer H go do something that interests him and have something besides the M or the kids to talk about at the end of the day (I always have stuff to talk about, it just doesn't interest him.) H said he is concerned/worried that he doesn't have it in him to meet this need.

This is of grave concern because my EN for conversation has been met by my D 21 and S19 for many, many years. I read the books they read and helped them with papers, etc., and we talked about religion and politics and social issues for hours on end. D21 has been at college for a while. S19 is leaving this week. In hindsight, I pre-replaced S19 with OM.

My pdoc says I am going to have to get that need met through friends, but MB says that is a bad idea, and I think I agree.

Help.

We also talked today about the fact that much of what brings him the most joy -- hunting and watching sports on TV -- are things that he does without me and that I have zero, zippo, nada interest in doing.

The activities that bring me the most joy, besides conversation, are all solitary pursuits.

We both like to hike and snow ski, but I always feel bad because I fear I am slowing him down which sucks the fun out. Plus, that's not stuff you can do regularly.

I am all in favor of him hunting and watching sports. To meet my EN, at least short term, I am signing up for a writing and Spanish course (oops -- now that I write that, I realize I forgot to run it by him), and investigating a book club.

I don't have any idea how to find common ground. I have been through Dr. Harley's activities list, and not a single thing resonated.

I'm not interested in much of anything he is interested in and he is not interested in much of anything I am interested in. What do you do when the only thing you have in common is a lot of years and kids together?

Help, again.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
Now if you want a powerpoint presentation, I think we can arrange it.

I actually wasn't kidding. I am putting together a power point presentation. I am working on immediate, short term and long term goals. I would like to get it down to one piece of paper that I can laminate (I LOVE laminating stuff) and refer to as a cheat sheet.

The problem I am running into is that all of my long term personal goals are inconsistent with being married (and I don't mean dating) to H. But that is a post for another day.

Immediate wisdom needed:

S19 is going to college this week. He continues to be vocally in favor of H and I divorcing. He is worried about leaving S15 in a war zone -- even said to S15 in front of me "S15, are you scared that I am leaving you alone with Mom and Dad? You should be."

S19 is a very powerful person in our family, a distinction he has actually earned so it isn't teenage grandiosity. I can deal with S15. Do I say something to S19 before I leave him at college or let it go? He knows about the A. I told him it's over, but I don't think he believes me.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/23/10 01:47 AM
Did you and your husband fill out this yet???

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/rei.pdf


Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/23/10 06:58 AM
Saddest,

There are days that make my time here worth a great deal. Today was such a day.
Quote
Originally Posted By: Just LearningHarley says it takes on average two years for people to recover from an affair.

This hit me like a ton of bricks. "People". I'm a person. I have to recover too. I thought it was only him.

Wow.


Yup, you are which is why we all have been talking to you. laugh
Welcome to the land of human beings and married ones at that. cool

IF you don't recover, your marriage has no chance. Hence all everyone has been saying from day one, yup especially the 2x4's were about YOU RECOVERING.

Quote
However, my number one EN is for conversation. I would prefer H go do something that interests him and have something besides the M or the kids to talk about at the end of the day (I always have stuff to talk about, it just doesn't interest him.) H said he is concerned/worried that he doesn't have it in him to meet this need.


You then list many things he enjoys doing and you have many things you enjoy doing. Share them with each other in conversation. Perhaps you are not so interested in the details of the hunt, but you might find the people he hunts with interesting.

Saddest, my W and I have been married almost 35 years and from a hobby standpoint I like golf and backpacking. She does not golf and doesn't backpack but will car camp sometimes. Further, my profession holds absolutely no interest for her and in fact she cannot understand it, and doesn't want to.

Yet, we have shared life and our children for all of these years. We share experiences and talk about her fund raising, our children's weddings, their schooling when they were in college, their jobs now that they are out. We have friends that we meet for dinners.

I think in the case of your marriage, you need to share the joy each of you receives from your respective hobbies. You two should be talking about politics, as you two should be voting on people, taxes, schools, etc. You two do live on the same planet with the same idiots running it, so please don't tell me you don't have anything to talk about or agree about.

You are limiting yourself in a self-destructive way when you describe things as you do.

If you and your H are really working on this and he is helping you more, and he is trying to become a larger part of the family, you two need to tell your children this. S19 may have earned many things, but he has not earned the right to tell you and your H to fail. No one has that right.

You and your H need to discuss your children's view of this marriage and decide how to change it into a positive one. That should keep the two of you talking for at least a year and working together for longer.

You two many not share much in the way of hobbies, but you do share a family and that should keep you busy and connected to your H for years IF you two decide to actually work on it. I will tell you, your children's view of your marriage and your H depends to a large extent on you and how you present it. Your H has the same responsibility.

So I would say you both have a lot to discuss, plan, and execute. I wouldn't think either of you would or should be short on things to talk about.

Trust me, as your children leave for school, you will find you two have even more to talk about. When they graduate college, you will have even more. Start there.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/26/10 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
.

I think in the case of your marriage, you need to share the joy each of you receives from your respective hobbies. You two should be talking about politics, as you two should be voting on people, taxes, schools, etc. You two do live on the same planet with the same idiots running it, so please don't tell me you don't have anything to talk about or agree about.

SW,

I was going to post yesterday to see how you've been doing lately, and then I saw the post from JL above. So I put down the computer and talked to my W...about politics of all things. Since our votes tend to cancel the other out, it was kind of a nice discussion.

Conversation with my W has, lately, not been my strongpoint though I can always think of things to say with complete strangers or friends in social situations. I think that just "trying" to think of something to talk about makes the attempt even worse. I asked my W this, and she agreed 100%...said she felt the same way. I wonder if your H thinks the same way. Not sure if y'all are in a position to ask that, but maybe in a joking manner?

Spontaneity in conversation sure is hard, I guess you just have to relearn it.

Anyways, end threadjack. So what did you guys do, as far as RC, when you were dating? Maybe a day trip would be in order, or, as a small start, a run to Home Depot and lunch, or a lengthy browse through a furniture store or Best Buy? Nothing too long, so that the two of you aren't sitting there in silence trying to think of what to say. As for dinner, to avoid the above, I've always thought that the Benhihana type places are good...the ones where they cook in front of you and gives you both something to watch or look at besides the elephant on the table.

Hope things are going ok for you.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 08/26/10 01:12 AM
Saddest,

To follow up on Northwood's comment. My W and I find that reading the newspaper ( I know how old fashion) at breakfast often gets the day off to a good start conversation wise.

We read articles to each other or point one that interests us out to the other, and then discuss after the other has read it.

Given that I live on the "left coast" and our broke cities have a love of paying their city managers well "how does $800k a year sound for a town of about 30,000? sigh " we find lots to talk about. Oh! and we don't always agree on things either, but it does allow each of us express ourselves.

My point, life is too darned fun to waste it not talking to your spouse about it and laughing at it.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 04:50 PM
I would love to hear from any WW or BH whose WW initiated the coaching process with SteveH, got her BH on board with coaching and then worked SteveH's recovery program.

Things are better with the M right now -- H went hunting and I didn't heave a huge sigh of relief when he left which I historically did for years prior to the A. And he went hunting so he feels safe, or at least safer. In the past I would have gone out to dinner with a friend but that feels kind of mean to H (core value=kindness) and I'm not ready for that (core value=self care) as I'm not confident I'm not still low hanging fruit. I don't know how he would feel if I did go out with a friend, and haven't asked because I'm not ready.

Getting H to talk to SteveH (which H will willingly do if I ask) feels like stirring things up -- let's just let that sleeping dog lie, shall we?

I know the right thing to do is ask that my H to talk to SteveH (core value=integrity) as I know my H has no way to manifest his pain (core value=compassion) and there is no way this period of relative tranquility can be maintained. But I'm scared.

Really, really scared.

REALLY scared.

I'm an information gatherer so any insight into what I can expect -- good or bad -- will alleviate my anxiety.

JL -- took your advice and hunted for news of interest to us both -- found that Texas came perilously close to eradicating Thomas Jefferson from the history textbooks because of his church/state views? Since we both attended Mr. Jefferson's University, we had a lively discussion about that. It was actually fun!
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 05:10 PM
OK, to get it all out there, here is what I am scared of: the "what happened" step of the treatment protocol.

H hasn't asked much and what he's asked I've answered honestly. But since I don't want to tell, H not wanting to know works for me. I've been telling myself that it is up to H to determine how much information he wants. I wonder if SteveH is going to press my H to ask for more.

Meanwhile, I am working really hard at forgetting.

I'll use the approach suggested by JL (word for word) that H write down his questions if H needs more information. It's a sensitive, compassionate approach and it will buy me some time.

I'm NOT saying I won't tell him whatever he asks. I'd just prefer he not ask. But if he is going to ask, I need to be ready, and I don't mean ready to lie. The times we have talked about it, I have come off as very dispassionate and clinical and that doesn't work. H's reaction to my demeanor was "you really just don't care, do you." Well, no, I don't.

But the theory is that some day I will care, so I need to be ready. If I'm not ready, I'll default to dispassionate and clinical.

Actually, that's not true. I'm starting to care. Maybe that's why I am so scared. I'd rather get whatever he needs out there, see how he reacts, and then decide whether I want to care.

I DESPISE being out of control.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 05:25 PM
Saddest,

Ya know. You paint your H in a very bad light and then you say
Quote
I DESPISE being out of control.
Has it occured to you that you need for control is why your H has acted as he has. Your H should hear what he wants to hear.

My guess is that he wants to know a lot, but he is deeply afraid because he KNOWS you don't care at all for him. He suspects you will drive great pleasure from hurting him.

The reality may not be this, but your lack of compassion, your need for control, and how you have delivered what you have certainly tells him to stand back.

Now this may sound great for you, but actually it is the worst thing in the world for you. You may divorce but you will KNOW that it was because of your failures and fears. You may stay married, but there will be a low level of intimacy because deep down he will not trust you or open up to you. Your failure to to actually feel and to be honest will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Finally, has it occured to you that some of your H's behavior is in response to you and how you have treated him over the years. I am not talking about the A, I am talking before the A. One thing that is very clear from being here all of these years is that in most cases marriages are nonlinear and a modest change on the part of one spouse leads to changes on the part of the other. This happens over and over. You can get the marriage you want, but you need to model the marriage you want in how you treat your H.

My guess is that he is receptive.

Think about it.

JL
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
My guess is that he wants to know a lot, but he is deeply afraid because he KNOWS you don't care at all for him. He suspects you will drive great pleasure from hurting him.

Having been a BS in 2001, I think this statement has some truth to it. When we were in the first "working it out" phase, my W's PA ate at me. I wanted to know the details but didn't want to know because I was scared of what I'd hear and didn't want to hurt anymore. She, like you, had said that she'd tell me whatever I wanted to hear.

I felt that he (the OM) had won, that I was being compared to him and that my W would always compare us in what had, until then, been a private matter. That she didn't love me and that she would, I don't know, rub it in so to speak. I didn't want to hear "Well we did [this] and, even though I know it was wrong, I enjoyed it." That is, I didn't want to hear the truth.

In the end, I asked a few things and got answers, but it took a long time, nearly a year, to get over that. For a while, when we were together, I couldn't help but wonder if she was thinking about OM. The most horrific was when I noticed a technique (sorry to be blunt) that she obviously hadn't done before, and I kept wondering where it was learned. Over time, and because we worked on our underlying issues, it passed and, thankfully, there were times when I no longer thought about it. I felt superior to the POSOM, that's the best way I can describe it. I'll never forget it as long as I live, but I can forgive. I don't know if there was anything that W could have done (with regard to answering questions) that would have helped me...it was fixing our other issues (meeting other EN's) that kind of worked it out. I had to get to a place myself where I felt ok to be ok again.

Of course, fast forward nine years later and we're in a rut again, but that's how I felt in the intervening years.

I doubt this helps much, but thought I'd share my perspective.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by saddestwife
I don't know how he would feel if I did go out with a friend, and haven't asked because I'm not ready.

If it's a married friend, why not a "double date"?
Posted By: saddestwife Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Just_Learning
You paint your H in a very bad light

Living with him was death by a thousand cuts. No single cut is lethal, and some are so small you hardly notice them. It's so hard to explain and I get so frustrated trying I start crying, and I don't cry. Not frustrated here -- frustrated with him.

He wasn't a very good husband -- he tried to mold me into his vision of the perfect wife so I would make him look good. I didn't say that. He said it when we started talking about reconciling. I asked him what was so wrong with me that he needed to change me so, and he wouldn't or couldn't answer. I'm not at all sure he likes me very much, and I'm talking pre-A. He says he loves me, but I don't know what that means. I think maybe he just needs me.

I wasn't a very good wife -- I tried to be the perfect wife he wanted and then resented the hell out of him. From his standpoint, I was a very good wife. You are going to have to trust me on that.

Nothing I did to try to change the dynamic seemed to have any impact. Maybe I wasn't doing the right stuff, or maybe he just wasn't willing to change. No way to know.

We both failed dramatically in dramatically different ways, but it's still failure. We retreated into our respective trenches and started fortifying them. Even if it was miserable, it was safe.

Then a dropped the A bomb so the trenches aren't safe anymore.

He's trying to be a better husband. I'm trying to be a better wife. There's movement on both sides.

He has a lot of shame about how he's treated me. I have a lot of shame about how I've treated him. Maybe leaving that in the past and looking only forward is the right answer, hence my question about delving into the details of the A. We were so disconnected at the time, I wonder if he really feels as much pain as I'm told he does.

The A is over. He wants the M to be emotionally intimate -- whenever I hear him use that phrase I have to laugh, and not in a mean way. It's just so funny hearing those words come out of his mouth -- like he learned French overnight or something.

He may not have been a good husband, but I know with certainty that he is very good man -- I have never once questioned that. But if you take that to its logical conclusion, the question arises "if he is such a good man, why does he treat me this way?" And the only logical answer to that, given that he is a good man is the constant in the equation, is that I deserved it and if I deserved it, I shouldn't complain about it. So I didn't.

It's so hard to explain.

I know for a certainty that he is trying really hard. And so am I. Trying goes a long way.

I like the guy again. He's gone and I sort of miss him. I can't remember the last time I felt that way. Is it really smart to mess with the status quo?

Originally Posted by Just_Learning
how you have delivered what you have certainly tells him to stand back

Exactly. I know this. How do I change it?

Originally Posted by Just_Learning
low level of intimacy because deep down he will not trust you or open up to you.

One thing H and I are in total agreement on is that if we can't create a great marriage, we will end it. Mediocrity is not an option. Been there, done that.

Originally Posted by Just_Learning
Your failure to to actually feel and to be honest

I am being honest. I don't know how to make myself feel something. It may be that I am like someone who won't go to the funeral of the three year old they ran over while driving drunk and texting because they can't face the horror of what they've done. That explanation seems to fit the facts as I know without question that I am a very empathic, fair person.

I seriously have to be careful with this stuff. Falling back into the abyss of suicidal clinical depression isn't going to help anyone. I can't do that again. I won't survive. You are just going to have to trust me on that.

And I know H is worried about that too and that is a factor in his hesitancy to discuss the A. He has to know that I'm not going to go back into the abyss. I have no idea how to reassure him on that point as I can't say with any certainty that I won't.

I HAVE to understand this process and be ready.

I don't have a controlling bone in my body. You are going to have to trust me on that one too. My kids say I'm too lazy to be controlling, but what they don't know is that I worked really hard to give them to tools to make good decisions when they were younger so I don't have to control them. Me being controlling is like when someone asked me here if I was narcissistic -- my psychiatrist and family burst out laughing when I posed that question to them. I'm not a control freak.

When I say I despise being out of control, I'm saying I don't like being blindsided. There are a lot of moving parts here and they can move the way they need to move. I just want to know if there are more parts out there.

And yes, I know my H got blindsided by my A and that blow was way worse than anything I might face. That is actually the piece of it which speaks to me the loudest. That look on his face.

I don't want to go to the funeral. Who would? But I'll do the right thing. I just need a map.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 08:33 PM
SW:

Are you the same person as you were before DDay? Before the A?

No, your not. Your something different.

When you state this:
Quote
The A is over. He wants the M to be emotionally intimate -- whenever I hear him use that phrase I have to laugh, and not in a mean way. It's just so funny hearing those words come out of his mouth -- like he learned French overnight or something.

It shows that your BH is TRYING to be different. He is trying to do things in a better way in order to GET to that type of M.

Yes, you both have changed......

It is a matter of time to see if it was enough change, or the right kind of change.

You asked if counseling with SH will require your to "spill all the beans" about your A to your BH. SH may or may not require it. He may have a conversation with your BH one day in the future after talking with you a number of times, and SH may ask your BH what he still needs to know. Make that be SH's part in this. If you are counselling with him, then let him guide you to the right place and time, what your BH needs.

Now, I can tell you that you should reveal ALL the info to your BH anyway. Some men want every detail, some only want to barest amount. You, I believe already KNOW from being here that this decision is your BH's to make. Not you.

Since it is already making your squirm, then I can tell there is an awful amount of info there that is going to make you look bad, making your BH think even less of you, and revealing just how depraved you were when you were in the middle of the A high.

Understand, I gave my BW all the info in the two weeks after DDAY that she wanted to know. We still talk about some issues, 5 years later, as needed by her. She has the info she needed to process her life going forward. Much of it leaves scars I will never understand. I try my best to make it better for her.

However, that squirminess? That is WHAT HAS TO BE REVEALED. These are the "secrets" of your affair that you still share with OM. And by revealing them to your BH, you are in effect, betraying your (misplaced) confidences with your OM. When I have a secret, and I keep that from my BW, then *I* am creating emotional distance from my BW. Becasue your BH will continue to sense that something, whatever it is, is still out there, and waiting to hit him at the worst possible time, you two will *NOT* start bridgeing this gap between you. JL has talked about your BH having defenses, becasue of the past experiences in your M. ONe of those ways to reduce his defenses is having you drop yours, and revealing what needs to be revealed.

Might you fall in to the abyss once again? Maybe. But growing an increasing emotional attachment to your BH will probably result in it being MUCH more unlikely that will happen.

I have something about this line:
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He wasn't a very good husband -- he tried to mold me into his vision of the perfect wife so I would make him look good.

I want my wife to make me look good, and I want her to feel that I am helping her to look good. He was trying to make sure you didn't fail to be a perfect wife, but there was much that was keeping YOU from becoming that perfect wife, whatever that was. His idea of a perfect wife could have been dramatically different from yours, but that doesn't mean that there could not have had some common elements. However you rebelled from these efforts because of your own reasons. He may not have ever known what these reasons are, but he still stayed, and stayed a Good Man.

And you can, even NOW, recognize the fallacy in this equation, right:
Quote
And the only logical answer to that, given that he is a good man is the constant in the equation, is that I deserved it and if I deserved it, I shouldn't complain about it. So I didn't.

His treatment of YOU, as a GOOD MAN, did not meet your standards of how a GOOD MAN should be treating his W. You didn't deserve bad treatment, you just didn't know a way OUT of this type of treatment, and I am sure that your BH has no real concept of how those actions were hurting YOU. (I mean, you have the BOOK, right, you were given it on your wedding day? "How to treat your Spouse." it was on page 34, everything you needed to know.... J/K) You mention the death by a 1000 cuts. The first 500 were noted, but not understood, so the resentment started to build, and then the cuts started to noticable, as you started to string them together and recognize the pattern. But at that point, you had NO IDEA how to stop the cuts...

What would have happened if you found MB after 100 cuts? How to address it with him, how to modify your own behaviors to address the knife, etc?

You have finally found MB. Start to work the process, continue the change, and see where this goes. You see a definate improvement, already. Take hope from that.

MB ain't perfect, but I believe it is far better than anything else out there.

(((SW)))

LG
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 10:43 PM
Hi Saddest.

I have not been on much at all but saw your most recent and sort of caught up on you and just wanted to say "hi" a few things.

First is you need to change your sign on name to something else. More positive. Don't wear your heart or your emotions on your sleeve anymore.

Second, I wish you had a chance to meet Vince Lombardi, as I did back now 47 years ago. That is just what your story and your situation honestly tells me. He would have knocked your socks off! I.e., he would have recognised very soon what your team (your marriage) needs - from both players. He probably could have excelled in most any professional field (properly trained), including MC.

There is a story I learned about him of when the Packers lost badly, he showed up the following Monday morning with a football. He simply held it in the air in front of the team and said, "gentlemen this is a football." Well, Sad, the players on the team pretty much knew what was coming, but Max McGee, the team wide receiver (and a favorite of Lombardi's) and team jokester replied, "Coach, would you slow down, you're going too fast"! This broke the ice. McGee had been one of the players who missed some catches and did not play well, and he knew he and others would have incurred Lomabardi's wrath probably for the whole week. Point of lesson - Lombardi is like the MB vets here, you are the Max McGee, and of course, the Packer team at that time is your M. Simplistic, I know. McGee didn't back down from the coach, but he humbled himself and made fun for the sake of the team. Nobody carried resentments over the next week about what happened the previous game, and as I recall they went on to win a big game the next week.

Your team, Sad, is being guided by you. Know matter what MB tells you (i.e., Lombardi) you are an intregal part of that team. And, the next Monday morning teal meeting you are going to have to decide if you are going to be part of it, or begging for a trade, or free agency. Imho, you have to get over the past and focus on the future - as Lombardi and McGee did nearly 50 years ago, and focus on what you want with your H for the rest of your marriage season. I think this is the biggest obstacle preventing you and your H from true intimacy. If you have to be humerous and humble yourself, so be it.

This is not a very good analogy, but I am concerned for you. Take care.

Tom

Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/01/10 11:16 PM
Saddest,

Boy this is going to be a long one. First, the answer is yes, ask him to talk to SH. You are assuming this is all about you, but SH is going to talk to your H about him and how he sees the marriage, now, during the A, and before. You MUST understand that nothing great can happen until you understand that this is about BOTH of you, not just you, not just him.

OK, now let's get down to a few details OK?

Quote
Living with him was death by a thousand cuts. No single cut is lethal, and some are so small you hardly notice them. It's so hard to explain and I get so frustrated trying I start crying, and I don't cry. Not frustrated here -- frustrated with him.

He wasn't a very good husband -- he tried to mold me into his vision of the perfect wife so I would make him look good. I didn't say that. He said it when we started talking about reconciling. I asked him what was so wrong with me that he needed to change me so, and he wouldn't or couldn't answer. I'm not at all sure he likes me very much, and I'm talking pre-A. He says he loves me, but I don't know what that means. I think maybe he just needs me.

I wasn't a very good wife -- I tried to be the perfect wife he wanted and then resented the hell out of him. From his standpoint, I was a very good wife. You are going to have to trust me on that.

Nothing I did to try to change the dynamic seemed to have any impact. Maybe I wasn't doing the right stuff, or maybe he just wasn't willing to change. No way to know.

We both failed dramatically in dramatically different ways, but it's still failure. We retreated into our respective trenches and started fortifying them. Even if it was miserable, it was safe.

Then a dropped the A bomb so the trenches aren't safe anymore.

He's trying to be a better husband. I'm trying to be a better wife. There's movement on both sides.

First the good news there is movement on both sides. Remember that. This whole thing is about Baby steps and you two are taking them.

I know I have said this to you before, but Harley's big breakthrough in marriage counseling was that often damage was done in the marriage by spouses that were actually trying to be good to the other spouse. Further damage was/is done by a spouse that does not understand how their actions/inactions/words/silence have been interpreted by the other spouse. Often this happens both ways.

So look at these statements for a moment and then think about the "needs questionnaire", and the need to meet the needs of the other spouse. Think about the concept of "radical honesty" and the concept of the "policy of joint agreement." They were developed to help provide each spouse the information they needed to evaluate themselves, their spouse, and how the marriage was doing and then make a plan to make it better. You and your H are poster children for the dysfunction that Harley recognized in so many marriages. Please have some confidence in yourself and in your H.

What I see is that your perspective is heavily colored by his behavior pre-A, but not so strongly colored by his behavior post-A. It should be the other way around, but you and I know that you used his behavior to justify you're A. But, Saddest, if I could convince you of one thing I would love to convince you that you're a isn't going to kill your marriage, it hurt it yes, but kill it no. What will kill it is either of you failing to develop a new perspective on marriage, yourselves, and each other. Your H has indicated he believes he can recover from the A.

Quote
He has a lot of shame about how he's treated me. I have a lot of shame about how I've treated him. Maybe leaving that in the past and looking only forward is the right answer, hence my question about delving into the details of the A. We were so disconnected at the time, I wonder if he really feels as much pain as I'm told he does.

The A is over. He wants the M to be emotionally intimate -- whenever I hear him use that phrase I have to laugh, and not in a mean way. It's just so funny hearing those words come out of his mouth -- like he learned French overnight or something.

Saddest it is very very common for the BS to take an immersion course in "French" smile it really is. You have no idea how badly he was rocked, but what he knew was that he HAD to find a way to communicate with you in a way different than the past, he clearly had failed. You don't know it but the biggest hurdle a BS has to overcome is the sense of failure which leads to a lack of trustIN THEMSELVES. You are not doing him any favors by not suggesting SH to him because he needs to develop some new perspectives to help him cope.

The fact that he has shame for how he treated you is a great sign. It means he has taken to heart your complaints about his behavior and he sees them as valid. You don't leave it in the past you discuss it and learn from it. You mentioned you liked intellectual stimulation, I actually chuckled a bit when I read that, because when you are ready the most stimulating discussion you are going to have are about what each of you want from a good marriage.

Envision a conversation with your H where you start it by saying: "Honey, I was thinking back to our marriage before I chose to have the affair. I often felt that you were trying to change me because you did not like me. Could you explain to me what you actually were thinking?" Notice you have not attacked him. Notice you have stated your concern and internal response to him "back in the day" wink Yet, you are saying "I may have had it wrong, or saw it wrong. But, I would like to better understand." This is an inquiry of knowledge and information. Now why would you have asked him that? What are you trying to learn? You need to know those answers before you ask. If he asks those questions, you might say "you know I carry a lot of resentment from those days and with the resentment comes frustration. I want to lay that aside but I need to understand so that I can better understand where you were coming from then and where you are coming from now. I want us to be happy with one another." Notice a statement of intent, a need for knowledge, coupled with the seeking of a new perspective. Those are deep things Saddest.

Quote
He may not have been a good husband, but I know with certainty that he is very good man -- I have never once questioned that. But if you take that to its logical conclusion, the question arises "if he is such a good man, why does he treat me this way?" And the only logical answer to that, given that he is a good man is the constant in the equation, is that I deserved it and if I deserved it, I shouldn't complain about it. So I didn't.

It's so hard to explain.
ORRRRR there is a different answer. He was a good man bereft of the proper tools to take being a good man and become a good husband. It is just possible it was not you and you did not need to complain but you did and do need boundaries. He needed to know those boundaries as well.

Quote
I know for a certainty that he is trying really hard. And so am I. Trying goes a long way.

I like the guy again. He's gone and I sort of miss him. I can't remember the last time I felt that way. Is it really smart to mess with the status quo?
No! the status quo is not where you should be. You are still hurt, he is still hurt, and your marriage is nowhere near as good as it can be. That much is very clear from your posts and what you say about him. He needs more and you need more. You two need to not just exist or be friends you two need to be LOVERS. And by that I mean the verb love, not the feeling love. It can happen Saddest.

Quote
I am being honest. I don't know how to make myself feel something. It may be that I am like someone who won't go to the funeral of the three year old they ran over while driving drunk and texting because they can't face the horror of what they've done. That explanation seems to fit the facts as I know without question that I am a very empathic, fair person.

I seriously have to be careful with this stuff. Falling back into the abyss of suicidal clinical depression isn't going to help anyone. I can't do that again. I won't survive. You are just going to have to trust me on that.

And I know H is worried about that too and that is a factor in his hesitancy to discuss the A. He has to know that I'm not going to go back into the abyss. I have no idea how to reassure him on that point as I can't say with any certainty that I won't.
NO ONE can say that with certainty Saddest, but I can say that as you and your H work on this your likelihood grows less. You are not feeling as a defense mechanism, it is you protecting yourself and trying to control your environment. The control you speak of is not about what you necessarily do to other people but what you do to protect yourself. You don't try and control your children because you trained them and you trust them. Your H???? Not so much right? So you control the interactions, you worry about being honest with him, you wonder if he should be sent to talk to SH. Do you see what I am saying???

Most of this is natural and actually very common in the WS who is trying to reconcile with their spouse. They don't want to face the pain, and then the 2x4' start coming in. I think we are beyond that phase, but open and honest is the way to a good marriage and that goes not just for you, but your H.

Saddest I see a very vulnerable person trying to protect herself. I think your H is starting to see you in a new light. You are bright, you are well educated, even if you did go to Mr. Jefferson's University. cool And I think your H did not know you nor have the tools to know you in the day. He has grown, he has been hurt, and he has decided. You have grown, you have been hurt and you have decided. And it seems that you have decided to try, why not try together?

This will take you forgiving him for his failures as he forgives you your failures. Saddest forgiveness is not forgetfulness, it is laying aside the resentment and giving someone something that they may or may not have earned in the past.

Just thoughts. Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/02/10 03:55 AM
SW,

Aren't you glad this guy is still around and just learning...

Bravo, JL!

Mark
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/04/10 12:10 AM
Saddest.

Wow you are silent...*s*

Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/04/10 01:08 AM
Hi saddest. You know....I've been quite uppity and know-it-all-y lately. But I have to say that I'm a sister in pain today. I hope you are doing okay. How are things going.
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/30/10 06:41 PM
Saddest here under my Hague Convention Expert screen name.

I can�t come up with a better name and I�m tired of being saddest. And today it fits.

I�m totally burned out. I woke up at 2:38 this morning and never went back to sleep, chasing thoughts around and around.

We had our 25th wedding anniversary and I think I�ve been holding my breath to get through that. It was very emotional.

I�ve done all the stuff I�m supposed to do for my H, or at least all I know to do � meeting EN�s, avoiding lB�s. I�m quite vigilant about taking responsibility for the A and trying my mightiest to carry all the weight of recovery.

H gets anxious when I meet with friends so I�ve pretty much cut that out, and he gets nervous when I see my pdoc , so I�ve cut him back to once or twice a month

I thought I was going to get to go out of town to see my brother, one of my very favorite people on the planet � I thought we had agreed to that, but H is going to go watch a football game at a friend�s house Saturday afternoon � a highly unusual thing for him to do � so now I can�t go because I have to take S15 to a tennis tournament. I would rather H go to the football game than me go see my brother because H needs friends.

But so do I.

H doesn�t want to talk to SteveH, doesn�t want to go to MC, doesn�t want to go to IC, doesn�t want to read any books, and perused this website and was unconvinced.

Nothing I can do about that -- I control me, he controls him.

My S19 left for college (how DARE he leave me!) so it is just H, S15 and I in this suddenly quiet house. S15 and H butt heads like ... your average adolescent boy and his father. S19 didn�t act S15 at his age because they are, in fact, different people. H says his anger at S15 is not displaced anger at me, S15 says he�s clueless as to what the problem is. Keeping the peace is draining. There is a terrible storm building there, and I don�t know how to stop it.

I miss S19 so much � the hole in my life is ginormous. He was my buddy, my companion, my debating partner, my fellow reader. SUCH a cool kid.

I made a HUGE mistake last week reminding my H that my number one EN is conversation as he feels he can't meet that need but it's still a need.

I told H last night I my emotional filling station was out of gas. I�m not sure why I told him that as I don�t know that there is much he can do about it. He didn�t really respond � what's there to say, anyway? I withdrew after that instead of pressing it which I know I�m not supposed to do but I�m just so exhausted that solitude seems the only way to re �energize and I really didn't know what else to say.

For almost 3 months, I have deliberately put myself in a position where he is the only one I have to talk to, and I still really can�t. Except for two nights when he was away, and the occasional errand or lunch, we are together 24/7 � in the same house if not the same room. UA time, though plentiful, is superficial. We are very pleasant to each other and have had a couple of actual conversations, but I�m lonely. When I tried to talk to him about my loneliness a few days ago, he started crying which I did not understand AT ALL. A few weeks ago, I copied H on an email I sent to an Episcopalian priest I know about some issues in my life and H cried at that too and I didn't understand that either.

My secret mental life continues unabated, except without OM. During one of our conversations, H asked if I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and when I replied yes, he said it isn�t going to happen. But I�m still waiting.

I'm present, attentive, empathic and totally burned out. I know he's in pain, but so am I.

Because it makes H feel safe, I think not talking to anyone and rarely leaving the house is what I�m supposed to be doing. I don�t really resent it � I built this prison for myself so I can�t complain about living in it � but I�m wondering how long I�ll need to live like this, and I wonder if there isn�t a certain amount of masochism at work � I tend to beat the ever loving sh** out of myself given half a chance. I wonder if I�m doing the right thing or if I should call up a friend and go out to lunch and let him deal with the resulting anxiety.

Figured someone here might have the answer to that question.

Figured someone here would be able to tell me what I�m supposed to do next if there is next thing to do.

Probably I just need to buck it up and accept this is the price I pay but that doesn't feel right either. Nothing feels right.


Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/30/10 07:34 PM
I will anxiously await replies to your post as it is similar to my situation.

My problem is that before my A every choice I made centered around my husband and would it get him upset, angry, annoyed. Eventually I started putting myself first (hence the A) and now I am afraid.

Afraid to put myself anywhere near the top of any list but also afraid that if I don't pay attention I'll lose it again.

He was late home from work. I was annoyed. I had errands to run and I needed him home. I was spent from dealing with the kids and I needed him home. He was sorry. I couldn't tell him. I had an affair. How can I be upset that he was late? What right do I have?
Posted By: themud Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/30/10 08:31 PM
Exactly,

What right do you have?

Because of what you did, you now have a precarious situation where you will be emotionally and mentally abused for x amount of time. How long? If you search the boards, some WS are stronger and can take the recourse longer and some BS show the pain they are in differently and do not lash out. The guilt you feel is yours, not your BS. At some point the remorse will be flat and you will feel that you need to start getting on with your BS in a building mode. You may be at this point sooner than your BS and have to weather that storm and carry that burden. After all... you caused it.

The WS must bare the brunt and carry the load. Your BS must come to a point where they want you in their life or out. That is why this is a marathon and not a sprint. If you are so heartless to only be a couple of months after dday and want things to start being ok... well you are probably the type to have an A in the first place. Impatient and demanding and wanting a mind reader. Sorry for the mean tone, just having a rough day myself as a BS.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/30/10 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by sosickofthis
H gets anxious when I meet with friends so I�ve pretty much cut that out, and he gets nervous when I see my pdoc , so I�ve cut him back to once or twice a month

...I would rather H go to the football game than me go see my brother because H needs friends.

But so do I.

Are you both sitting there realizing that you're stuck in a rut, don't know how to get out of it, and are scared that it is just history repeating itself? Are any of your friends married so that the four of you could go out to eat? You'd get outside contact, he'd know where you are and, possibly, meet some new friends?

Originally Posted by sosickofthis
I made a HUGE mistake last week reminding my H that my number one EN is conversation as he feels he can't meet that need but it's still a need.

Do you think he is frustrated by the small-talk conversation? Might ask him. One of the more interesting conversations that me and my W had was when we talked about how we had nothing to talk about. Obviously you cannot create spontaneity when you're both trying to think of something to say, but (for us) just talking about it was an icebreaker.

If you guys can create new situations (i.e. lunch with other couples, a trip to your son's college, etc.) then you'll have something new to talk about. I know how it is to just stare at a wall with nothing to say, awkward to say the least.

Originally Posted by sosickofthis
When I tried to talk to him about my loneliness a few days ago, he started crying which I did not understand AT ALL. A few weeks ago, I copied H on an email I sent to an Episcopalian priest I know about some issues in my life and H cried at that too and I didn't understand that either.

Did he say what made him cry?

Originally Posted by sosickofthis
I wonder if I�m doing the right thing or if I should call up a friend and go out to lunch and let him deal with the resulting anxiety.

Involve him in activities instead of doing the same old thing. Your friend will still be there, time for a new way of thinking. To save both of you from awkward silences at a restaurant, go with others. Afterwards it will give you guys something to talk about. I know, kind of piddling but what if it turns over a new leaf?

You mentioned your son's tennis game. Do you and H both go? If not, both go, stop by a pizza place or something afterward. Go play putt-putt, browse for a new couch or Blue-ray DVD player thing, go get some ice cream, the three of y'all rent a cabin at a state park for a weekend, go fishing, go to a lake and rent a canoe, anything to break the cycle. Blow off work if you have to or can.

Will it be strange at first? Yes. Will you probably both be uncomfortable at first? Yes. But what if y'all start to enjoy each other's company again?

You don't want the old marriage back, do you? I suspect you want a new one, tossing the refuse from the old one in the trash. Try something new. What's the worst that could happen...you guys divorce? Might as well do whatever the hell you can think of to reinvent things.

Hope things start to look up for you real soon.




Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 09/30/10 10:10 PM
themud, I'm sorry you are having a bad day.... but....

Originally Posted by themud
you now have a precarious situation where you will be emotionally and mentally abused for x amount of time.

I have read nothing in any of Dr. Hartley's books or the materials he published on this website that the WS should be prepared to endure abuse of any sort for any period of time. In fact, the MB recovery program suggests exactly the opposite - that the BS must learn to meet the EN's of the WS that the AP was meeting.

The description Dr. H gives of the Giver and the Taker on this site is, IMO, exactly right -- the BS needs to settle down the WS's Taker to give the WS's Giver some room to maneuver.

I believe Dr. Hartley would say that while anger is natural and to be expected, abuse has no place in recovery.

Originally Posted by themud
If you are so heartless to only be a couple of months after dday and want things to start being ok... well you are probably the type to have an A in the first place. Impatient and demanding and wanting a mind reader.

This is unkind and unfair. I didn't lose my need for human companionship and interaction by having an A, nor am I demanding anything. I want my H to meet my EN for conversation. I don't want to go outside the M for that because the MB program is very clear that one spouse should meet the other's top five ENs.

I'm lonely. I'm trying to work the program and I'm stuck. I'm looking for ideas -- there are only so many times you can re-read SAA and HNHN for inspiration. Typically, it seems it is the BS trying to implement the program. I'm trying to do it from the wayward side.

I know he's in pain. But so am I.

Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
My problem is that before my A every choice I made centered around my husband and would it get him upset, angry, annoyed. Eventually I started putting myself first (hence the A) and now I am afraid.

Afraid to put myself anywhere near the top of any list but also afraid that if I don't pay attention I'll lose it again.

Exactly. It's hard to know where the lines are. I don't want them where they were pre-A, Giver running the show and Taker seething in the backstage.

My Giver is about worn out right now. I'm not sure what to do about it, but my A gave me a new, healthier respect for my Taker.

The fear complicates an already complicated situation. Historically, anger and its progeny have been the "go to" emotions in my H's emotional Rolodex. The anxiety is draining.

Originally Posted by Northwood3312
Did he say what made him cry?

The email to the priest made him cry because it was a wail of such utter despair.

I'm not sure why he gets so upset when I say I'm lonely. I do know he hates it when I'm sad. I think he's really struggling with opening up to me and when he hears I'm lonely, he views that as a comment on him that he may not be in an emotional position to do anything about.

We've done a lot of damage to each other.

I think he misses S19 too. Some kids churn the family (D21) and some kids calm it like S19. He is a powerful, unifying element.

Originally Posted by Northwood3312
Are any of your friends married so that the four of you could go out to eat? You'd get outside contact, he'd know where you are and, possibly, meet some new friends?

You've suggested this before and I didn't do anything about it, but now I really am going to get to work on this. We are both pretty anti-social, but I am a butterfly compared to him. We had one couple friend that we did everything with for years before we moved three years ago. In the past three years, we have been out to dinner once with another couple.

We largely led separate lives for many years, an easy trap to fall into with three children and his 100 hour work weeks (no exaggeration there) for many years and commuting to another city for work for many years after that. It's like he showed up for the M about a year ago when he stopped commuting and I'm like, who are you?? The resentment crept in and there was no time to deal with it because he was never home and when he was I wanted it to be pleasant for him and nice for the kids. So I stuffed it.

I'd guess our M is pretty much a poster child for my generation's typical dysfunctional M. It seems that people only 10 years younger than me have some quality of life limits on work. Suddenly there were fathers at the soccer games. There seriously was a noticeable shift in the last decade or so.

My issue isn't simply about being lonely and wanting some outside contact. It's also about ensuring that my H is the one who meets my top five emotional needs -- or three, really. The rest aren't a big deal to me. I've historically, according to him, done a good job of meeting his needs. He wasn't meeting my needs, so I got them met elsewhere. Anyone can fall victim to an A if their needs aren't being met.

So I want H to be the one to meet my EN for intimate conversation. If that means I talk to virtually no one, so be it. It's him, or no one. Either I'm going to do the MB program or I'm not. I'm not going to do it halfway and hope for the best.

Hope things are well for you Northwood -- last I read things were improving.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:07 AM
Hi so sick.

well first of all, and I know screen names are chosen by the person for very persoanl reasons, but by God get a more postive screen name!...*s* You know as well as I do, that despite circumstances, that how you denote yourself is also how you feel about yourself. So, how about "Looking for the rainbow", or "I'm worth It".

Anyway, glad to see you are still alive and kicking! When you mentioned your son leaving home for college, well I have my son back here with me now until he gets on his feet again.

Imho, you can't hold yourself prisoner 'Rainbow' for the sake of anyone, including your spouse. That is unhealthy. Ya know, I liken your situation to the feeling of when I walk out of confession. Going in you feel like guilty and apprehensive. Yea, you have to confess to another human. But, know what, when I walk out I feel uplifted. I don't feel a prisoner to anyone. It used to be that priests would take it out on you, and that was deadly wrong. Today, they more certainly realize they are servants, and that God is the one who forgives, despite that fact that some people cannot or wont't. So, if you feel cowtowed, just don't. God does not want people to feel that way. He wants them to feel individually active and striving despite their past. He most likely doesn't like the Dallas Cowgirls either! The are usually too aroggant! So, be devoted to your H as best you can, but don't beat yourself down by sacraficing your contacts, and your life.

Just take care and good to see you back!

Tom
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by themud
Because of what you did, you now have a precarious situation where you will be emotionally and mentally abused for x amount of time. How long? If you search the boards, some WS are stronger and can take the recourse longer and some BS show the pain they are in differently and do not lash out. The guilt you feel is yours, not your BS. At some point the remorse will be flat and you will feel that you need to start getting on with your BS in a building mode. You may be at this point sooner than your BS and have to weather that storm and carry that burden. After all... you caused it.

The WS must bare the brunt and carry the load. Your BS must come to a point where they want you in their life or out. That is why this is a marathon and not a sprint.


I think this is very appropriate, saddest/ssot. I confronted this same thing a number of times, and it took me a while to get the idea that you have posted: he controls him, I control me.

There are highs and lows to recovery. Some of the lows feel like the end of the line, and you're both absolutely miserable. Best advice is head down, bull through it. I don't know how your BH would feel about you talking it out with him - like the other night, where you withdrew, e.g. - but if maybe you guys both lay out a plan for what will help the other when you hit a low... That way you would have a buffer of sorts for the dejection and not knowing what to do next?

Just an FYI, if you indulge in the withdrawing from your BH when things are rough, that's your Taker elbowing in. Be watchful of that.

The crying from your BH... I wonder if it's that he's at a complete loss. He wants this, he doesn't know what to do, he feels responsible (as you mentioned) when you say you're lonely, etc., etc., etc. Is there any way you can get him on the phone with the Harleys?

One other thing that might help...(don't hate me!)... When you're down, when your Taker is trying to take over, when your BH is down... do something for him. It sounds crazy, especially to your Taker, but I've found it helps to focus on my victim, it helps alleviate that self-flagellation that I am so good at, and it may just help fill a LB$. Doesn't have to be a huge thing, something small - something meaningful, some thoughtful gesture, etc.

That's all I got for now. Hope some of it helps!
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Hi so sick.

well first of all, and I know screen names are chosen by the person for very persoanl reasons, but by God get a more postive screen name!...*s* You know as well as I do, that despite circumstances, that how you denote yourself is also how you feel about yourself. So, how about "Looking for the rainbow", or "I'm worth It".

Tom

Ditto that.

FYI, you can go into "My Stuff" and edit your profile. Change your display name to whatever you want. Your login and password and everything are all still the same, it just changes your display name - works ex post facto, too.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:21 AM
Mrs. Vamilla,

I haven't seen very many of your posts, and maybe you do not post much, but, when you do you just seem very wise and down to earth. just wanted to say that.

Tom
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by sosickofthis
I'm not sure why he gets so upset when I say I'm lonely. I do know he hates it when I'm sad. I think he's really struggling with opening up to me and when he hears I'm lonely, he views that as a comment on him that he may not be in an emotional position to do anything about.

You're probably in the ballpark. Being a guy, and just from what you've said, I'd guess that he doesn't know what the hell to do with all this, doesn't know how to fix it (we like to fix things) and worries that, when you say you're lonely, that you'll step out again. Or, at least, that's what I'd think. Food for thought.

Like Mrs. Vanilla suggested, some small gesture of kindness may be worthwhile, even though you'll likely get little in return. Anything that will help build his trust for you would be worth it and, hopefully, allow him to open up a little.

It's kind of the basic question, who goes first in repairing things? To paraphrase something I read elsewhere, the person who thinks that they are the most mature should take the lead.

Slowly getting better over here, thanks for asking. We're both committed to working this out, with the D-word not being an option. Finally starting to see more ups than downs.

Take care, we're rooting for you.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by sosickofthis
So I want H to be the one to meet my EN for intimate conversation. If that means I talk to virtually no one, so be it. It's him, or no one. Either I'm going to do the MB program or I'm not. I'm not going to do it halfway and hope for the best.

Forgot to ask, but what is his top EN?
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by Northwood3312
Originally Posted by sosickofthis
I'm not sure why he gets so upset when I say I'm lonely. I do know he hates it when I'm sad. I think he's really struggling with opening up to me and when he hears I'm lonely, he views that as a comment on him that he may not be in an emotional position to do anything about.
...and worries that, when you say you're lonely, that you'll step out again. Or, at least, that's what I'd think. Food for thought.

+1

It would be a trigger for me. Why not to say "I want to be with you" or "I miss you " instead?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 04:24 AM
SSOT,

I have a few thoughts on the matters you posted. Let me first say that your feelings about S19 going to college are very very normal. My W cried when we left each of our three children and one of them went to college only 10 miles away. smile The last one went about 550 away and she cried the entire drive home, man that was fun. wink You should have been at the weddings! cool

Ok, you said
Quote
I told H last night I my emotional filling station was out of gas. I�m not sure why I told him that as I don�t know that there is much he can do about it. He didn�t really respond � what's there to say, anyway? I withdrew after that instead of pressing it which I know I�m not supposed to do but I�m just so exhausted that solitude seems the only way to re �energize and I really didn't know what else to say.
I will touch on the solitude in a moment, but you are supposed to be telling him these things. You know what else you should have said? You should have said, �Honey, I need your help. I want us to work, and I don�t know what to do and the anxiety is draining me empty. Please talk to me and tell me what you think?�

Quote
For almost 3 months, I have deliberately put myself in a position where he is the only one I have to talk to, and I still really can�t. Except for two nights when he was away, and the occasional errand or lunch, we are together 24/7 � in the same house if not the same room. UA time, though plentiful, is superficial.
Ok SSOT, you are doing this to yourself. Your H is not asking you to. You are making a disrespectful judgment about him when you assume that his anxiety cannot be addressed and that as you bring friends into your life you can enrich your life and his because you are happier. Want proof that your happiness enriches his life??? Read the next quote.

Quote
We are very pleasant to each other and have had a couple of actual conversations, but I�m lonely. When I tried to talk to him about my loneliness a few days ago, he started crying which I did not understand AT ALL. A few weeks ago, I copied H on an email I sent to an Episcopalian priest I know about some issues in my life and H cried at that too and I didn't understand that either.
Have you enquired as to why he gets so emotional? Have you figure out, that you suffering and struggling is really hurting him because he feels he cannot help you. He doesn�t know how to help you. He wants you happy. Not sure I am right? Then ask him and talk about that. Girl you are missing something very important here. It seems to me you failing to understand that your H has high expectations of you, and wants you happy. Has he gone about it the right way? NOPE! But if you guide him, he will do his best. If nothing else sit down next to him and simply take his hand. Or sit down and as him to rub your shoulders or neck. Little, simple, baby steps will start to reconnect you, but you unilaterally making sacrifices only leads to YOUR resentment.

Quote
My secret mental life continues unabated, except without OM. During one of our conversations, H asked if I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and when I replied yes, he said it isn�t going to happen. But I�m still waiting.
Did you ask him why it wasn�t going to drop? Did you tell him you felt it ought to drop or at least that is how YOU feel? Do you realize that he is saying that if you trust him, he will trust you?

Quote
I'm present, attentive, empathic and totally burned out. I know he's in pain, but so am I.
Do you know what would ease his pain?? It would be you allowing him to help you ease yours. You are burned out, because you are trying to do this all alone, it would seem from what you said, he will try to help IF you will give him instructions.

Quote
Because it makes H feel safe, I think not talking to anyone and rarely leaving the house is what I�m supposed to be doing. I don�t really resent it � I built this prison for myself so I can�t complain about living in it � but I�m wondering how long I�ll need to live like this, and I wonder if there isn�t a certain amount of masochism at work � I tend to beat the ever loving sh** out of myself given half a chance. I wonder if I�m doing the right thing or if I should call up a friend and go out to lunch and let him deal with the resulting anxiety.
Ok I am going to say this again. This is YOUR prison, and it is clear to me that your H would be much happier if you were happy in your life with him, and that means taking the key in your purse, opening the cell, taking his hand and getting on with life. Tell him you would like to go out with a friend for lunch, and ask if he has any objections. He will say no. Then call your friend go out, enjoy, laugh, and then come home smile at your H and say �Thank you for trusting me, you made me very happy.� He needs feed back and you need to quit kicking yourself in the butt.

Quote
Figured someone here might have the answer to that question.

Figured someone here would be able to tell me what I�m supposed to do next if there is next thing to do.

Probably I just need to buck it up and accept this is the price I pay but that doesn't feel right either. Nothing feels right.
Dear Lady, the price you MUST pay is to learn to enjoy your marriage and by happy in it. There is no way you can take back what you have done any more than your H can take but things he has done. True retribution is to make the marriage work by being happy in it. He deserves that gift from you. More than anything he deserves the gift of your smile and your happiness.

You really do have this whole thing upside down. True repentance is reflected in truly changing your approach to this marriage and making it one you both share and enjoy. You whipping yourself, hurts you, hurts your H, hurts your children, and it hurts your marriage. This is Marriage Builders for gosh sakes and you don�t build a marriage by beating yourself. You fix the things you can fix, you learn a different perspective and you understand that your happiness is tied to your H�s and his is tied to you. Work on happiness�YOURS!

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: TheRoad Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:14 PM
I read that your affair started in march

You are not happy about the pace of recovery

It takes six month's for a BS to grasp and process the affair took place.

Then they can go through an anger phase for another six months.

So it's not yet a year out from D day where do you expect to be? I'm not going to read 69 page to find out if there was trickle truth, if a NC letter was approved and sent by BH, how you met the OM, work, you still work at same place, NC, does the OM live close by, etc.

Outside of venting here what have you done to repair the trust?

Everything that gets broken can�t be repaired.

You want to go out of town on a weekend and wonder why BH would have a problem not trusting his WW.

Recovery is a two to five year process.

You, for what ever reasons, had you fun, then decided the affair was no longer fun so you ended it. You had the time you needed to justify starting it, doing it, ending it.

Your BH even if the worst husband of the world did not get to have his input asked for on his position on his WW banging the OM before it was to happen.

You volunteered to participate your marriage in an affair your BH didn�t he was forced to accept it.

Your marriage may recover. Your marriage may end in a divorce. Your marriage may continue on without recovery.

Thing is 69 pages you are at your wits end. This indicates that you need to counsel with the Harley�s because you and BH are going no where.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 02:27 PM
The mud, the road and anyone else that can help, please go to my thread. I may need some 2X4's

Saddest, sorry to threadjack but I so understand your situation. I am 13 months out. It does get better BUT....

JL I love reading your posts.

Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 06:15 PM
OK, better screen name I think. I chose sosickofthis because I didn't want the guy with the international custody issue to discount what I was saying because I'm a WS.

Speaking of people who need to change their screen names... JUST Learning? I don't think a single person on this site would agree with that.

Originally Posted by just_learning
Do you realize that he is saying that if you trust him, he will trust you?

I do now!

Originally Posted by just_learning
Work on happiness�YOURS!

We talked last night and again this morning and this is precisely what he wants. He wants me to take the bull by the horns and go live my life and stop worrying about this all the time. He wants me to stop beating myself up and get excited about my life again. He actually wants me to re-connect with my friends (my mind reading skills are not NEARLY as good as I like to think they are.)

I'm in a time of transition from mother to ??? Times of transition are scary. I'm not in the habit of talking to him. I get myself all tied up in knots because I think I have to be perfect and then when I finally open up to him it's always fine. The more times it's fine, the easier it will be.

If he's not stopping me, I'm stopping myself. This is the kind of self sabotage that my A represents.

Originally Posted by theroad
You are not happy about the pace of recovery.

I'm not unhappy about the pace. I want to do the right thing. It's a balancing act.

Originally Posted by theroad
Outside of venting here what have you done to repair the trust?

I don't feel like I was venting. I'm not at my wits end. I was stuck and asking for help.

I've followed the steps in SAA & talked to SteveH twice.

He's safe with me. He just doesn't know it yet. It will take time. That's OK.

Originally Posted by theroad
You want to go out of town on a weekend and wonder why BH would have a problem not trusting his WW.

Trust isn't the issue -- I was going to see my brother and he and my H are close. It's a matter of scheduling.

Northwood, his number one EN is O&H.

Mrs. V -- I am incredibly nice to him. He is being incredibly nice back. I have a thirst for more though -- a different view of what M could be like, where my heart jumps when I see him and the idea of keeping anything about me secret would be unimaginable. I had no idea such a thing was even possible. MB seems to be the only plan for accomplishing that, and I am intent on following it as closely as possible.

It took us a long time to get to this point, and it will take us a long time to repair. That's OK too. There is absolutely no legitimate reason why we shouldn't have a great M and enjoy the next part of our lives.

We went out to dinner for our anniversary and made our "bucket list", an activity I HIGHLY recommend. The rules were to assume complete autonomy and no depending on someone else to reach the goal, so things like watching our kids graduate from college were out.

He wants to go on a bike trip through Germany and I want to take a cooking class in France, Italy or Spain. He wants to learn to play the guitar and I want to become fluent in Spanish. He wants to build a canoe and I want to build one beautiful piece of furniture. We both want to make a significant charitable contribution. It was a great starting point for looking forward, and a lot of fun.

That night he said, "if I don't figure out how to be a good husband, I'm going to live a miserable life." The next day he cried because I didn't care enough about him not to cheat and he's afraid he's not "the one" for me. It was extremely emotional.

That and then skyping with S19, spending an evening with my MOTHER, and no sleep and I slipped into my masochistic/martyr role. Bad for me therefore bad for him therefore bad for the M. I'm slooowly getting it.

Next time it comes up, I'm going to suggest Dr. H's "on your word" code phrase. That will help A LOT.

Thanks you all. Your help means the world to me.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 06:33 PM
SW/SB:

Talking really does help.

Don't worry about being perfect. Just worry about talking.

Baby steps.

LG
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 07:03 PM
Seeking, I was thinking about you the other day and I was hoping that you were doing okay. I am glad to see you posting again.\

I have learned a lot from you and I have seen the progression you have made. Of course you are going to slip backwards a few times, it is still a learning process for you. I am glad that you know where to turn when you need the push.

I do want to ask you about the email that you CCd your BH on. Why did you CC him?

I am glad that JL gave you the awesome advice. Although you don't seem to be a mind reader when it comes to your BH, it seems JL is. laugh

Remember that during UA time, it is essential that you meet the 4 ENs, RC, SF, Convo, and Affection. Do some FUN things together. Recreate a date you had when you first got together. It will be awkward, but don't you remember how awkward those first dates seemed? You are getting to know eachother again.

I LOVE the bucket list idea, I wonder though, are there things on there that you guys can do TOGETHER? That way you could use you UA time to also check off some of those bucket list items.

Take care.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/01/10 09:09 PM
SB,

You wrote:
Quote
We went out to dinner for our anniversary and made our "bucket list", an activity I HIGHLY recommend. The rules were to assume complete autonomy and no depending on someone else to reach the goal, so things like watching our kids graduate from college were out.

He wants to go on a bike trip through Germany and I want to take a cooking class in France, Italy or Spain. He wants to learn to play the guitar and I want to become fluent in Spanish. He wants to build a canoe and I want to build one beautiful piece of furniture. We both want to make a significant charitable contribution. It was a great starting point for looking forward, and a lot of fun.

WOW! I mean just WOW! faint

You said you didn't have anything to talk about right? You said you don't have anything in common right? I'm looking at your bucket list and thinking this would be soooooo cool, you two have so much overlap in your lists and the fun you two could have in the basement, him making a canoe and your your funiture. Talking, sanding, staining, varnishing, and finishing. And then, and then.... I would recommend a joint clean up in the shower. blush S15 is lucky you two haven't shipped him off to boarding school already. Just kidding there. Keep talking and I am thinking you two could have a wonderful life, I mean wonderful.

Quote
That night he said, "if I don't figure out how to be a good husband, I'm going to live a miserable life." The next day he cried because I didn't care enough about him not to cheat and he's afraid he's not "the one" for me. It was extremely emotional.
I'll bet it was emotional, but it was a good emotional in that you are hearing his real thoughts. Are you starting to understand the power you have in this marriage? Are you starting to see that you two need each other? Are you starting to understand he NEEDS your forgiveness as well?

Girl, it is all about perspective and as you talk I am SURE you two will see each other in a different light, a better light.

Good to see you starting to talk to him SB. I really I am Just Learning as you will see as your time on this grows.

God Bless,

JL

PS: SB guide your H to be a better husband. Talk with him and see what kind of feedback he wants and needs from you. Develop your own shorthand for reminding each other when things become uncomfortable, but do it so that you are showing, guiding each other. He is seeking your help. It really doesn't matter what kind of H is in detail as long as he is the H that you need, and can love.
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/02/10 11:30 PM
saddest/seeker smile -

You sound like you are in a much better place - and you sound like a very different person than the one who first started posting here a few months ago!

Like lousygolfer said, don't expect perfection. Be gentle to your BH ... and to yourself.

Keep it up! hurray
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/04/10 11:33 PM
Hi Seeking,

Well, a very good name...as if my approval means anything...*s*

Anyway, it does sound like you are feeling a little better. Ya know what, after he had moved out on his own several years ago, my son is now back here due to fact that he broke up with his gf (well, yea like a woman several years older). It is good in a way to have him back since I can help him get on his feet again, but in a way it is not the same as when my W and I first let him launch. I felt awfully nostalgic for awhile when out daughter left for college several years ago as well. I did not admit this to my W, but now we both are very proud of her and where she is, and we still get together as a family. As Sinatra crooned, That's Life, and it is. In just a short while I think you are going to feel even more proud of yand happy for your son as he gets established in college and pursues his life and goals.

So, let's talk about tomatos. I can never remember if tomatos ends in 'oes' as opposed to potatoes! It is the same with the spelling of piece as opposed to receive. I used to have trouble with spelling those two until I learned that the first three letters of piece is the same as pie, and receive is the opposite. And, no, I don't mean the fried green tomatos or the tomatos that Sinatra referred to in some of his movies, but the basic garden kind that you grow to consume. I have never had the fried green type, but now that there are some and I am taking the tomato plants out for the season I might try that.

Growing tomato plants is alot like achieving a good marriage. There is the concern of achieving a good balance. For me, this is the first season in awhile that I have grown them. So, there were questions of risk of overwatering vs. underwatering, fertilizing too much vs. too little, pruning vs. letting them grow naturally, and using pestisides to control bugs (POSOM's). I learned that Marigolds planted close by are a great answer for the latter, since they repel most varmints (extraordinary precautions). I learned not to get overly anxious on wilted leaves (we had a hot summer), and failure of blossom set. All you do is shake the branches a few times a day to encourage the set. Then, a windstorm way back in early June (affair) took out one of the Early Girls. Well, disappointing, but I bought one of the last available from our garden store, planted, and it has a good yield. Of course, the timing is not right, becasue the plants are now producing more than they did a month ago when I had time.

Tomatos obviously cannot express or converse, achieve a reconciliation, or make decisions on their own. On the other hand, they don't require their 'partner' to go hidden, sacrifice their friends and their personal identity, or to cowtow.

Well Seeking, am sure you think that I am reprortable, but for God's sake someone needs to get you back here fully participating and fully reawakened!

You seem to me like a very wonderful person - perhaps just not that adept at growing tomato plants.

Best wishes and take care,

Tom
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/04/10 11:43 PM
Hi again Seeking,

Just wanted to say to you that please don't get me onto the subject of relating green peppers and hot peppers to a marriage, both of which I have also grown this season! You might never recover from that!

Take care and best wishes,

Tom
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/05/10 02:46 AM
OK, the anger is coming out but I am almost certain it is not in the right order -- my rage at him seems limitless and it is scaring me. I remember my children's faces when he would cut them to the quick, SNAP, in his whim of a moment, and whatever beautiful thing they thought they had is GONE, and I can't seem to breathe. And in those few moments when I feel good about me, a word or a look and I am once again a deflated pathetic being, so very, very sorry for taking up space, but not one bit sorry for having an A.

Not.One.Bit.Sorry. In my soul I am gleeful to find I have any power whatsoever.

It is my S15 I am so fearful for. He is so vulnerable and I KNOW I could make him a good stable happy home by myself.

I don't know what love is supposed to feel like, but surely, surely this isn't it.

I'm going to buy a pack of cigarettes. Please help me.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/05/10 03:00 AM
Did something happen today?
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/05/10 04:07 AM
Yes, his mother is in town and her and H's collective disapproval of me and MY children is taking its toll.

Mind you, his mother has been living with her OM whose 20 plus year M broke up over her for the last 15 years. Not married to OM -- he refused to marry again. But she has potloads of money that he has given her and travels around the world first class so who cares?

H's sister is M and has been having an A with a guy who works for her for 7?8? years. Her H is supposedly oblivious, but her girls, 25, 22 and 17 have all talked to me about it at some point.

But me, well, that's a horse of a different color. I'm scum ..... and a bad mother to boot.

And NO princessmeggy, I am not making ONE BIT of that up -- any more than I made up H criticizing me for buying too many paper towels at Costco.

I'm worn out. I don't know how to do this. I don't have a frame of reference. The disconnect is too much.

Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/05/10 04:53 AM
Sounds like you need a break, why don't you and S15 take a trip somewhere fun for a day or two. Give him a good memory. Is the family visit making him uncomfortable?

Life's rough enough for a teenager without unnecessary drama.




Posted By: Hitch2007 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/05/10 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
Yes, his mother is in town and her and H's collective disapproval of me and MY children is taking its toll.


Hi Seeking

What the hell is going on? You sound as though you are at your wits end. Please dont take this the wrong way, but are you sure its not your internal paranois about the A that is making you feel this way? After all you said to me sometime back that your MIL seemed to be quite understanding when you told about the A.

I know its bad for you when you go and buy some cigs, that is exactly what I do when I FEEL like things have hit rock bottom.
I put feel in CAPS because I feel like they are, which is different to things actually hitting rock bottom.

You sound like your super sensitive to your H criticisms, I can relate to that one, he makes the smallest criticism and I feel upset for hours.

Are you calmer today?

Hitch x
Posted By: deepsigh Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/05/10 10:52 AM
*********EDIT**************
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/06/10 02:55 PM
Thinking of you and wondering how you are doing on this rollercoaster ride today?
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/07/10 07:32 PM
I've really managed to blow it the last four days. I either lashed out or withdrew, and most days both.

I have it so firmly fixed in my head that he is my Father/Boss, and I can't seem to displace that paradigm. For some reason that I don't begin to understand having his mother here triggered the hell out of me. All of the sudden, I felt I had to work 16 hours a day cleaning, baking, ironing, planting. painting, and being PERFECT at all times, telling myself all the while that HE was forcing me to do it. He wasn't forcing me to do sh**. He kept telling me to relax and read a book or something. But NO, I wouldn't hear of it because having the floors clean at all times is obviously more important than enjoying an afternoon on the porch reading, which, in my twisted brain was somehow HIS fault.

He has been lovely -- patient, considerate, listening, helpful, supportive.

I have been hateful -- positively bristling with hostility -- seeing that as patronizing, hovering, disrespectful and critical.

I don't know what is wrong with me, but something is seriously wrong with me.

Last night I blew up and told him I didn't feel like I could live my life with him watching everything I do, and I feel like I have to be accomplishing something every minute of the day because otherwise he will be mad/disappointed in me, that I was in despair about the future, that he doesn't approve of me and never will, that I will never be good enough for him, and then I stomped off and went to bed, and took and Ambien to be good and damn sure there was no follow up conversation.

There have been times in the past when my anger at him was justified. This isn't one of them. He just could not have been nicer, and I just could not have been uglier.

He got up this morning, took S15 to school, and left coffee by my bed so I could get some rest given my self imposed draconian work schedule.

It's like I can't let him change. It's like I have to keep him as the enemy, when the enemy is me.

He's very depressed about the situation. He thinks I would be happier without him. He left on planned business trip, then this morning from there he decided to go hunting, and he's going to decide whether to come back home after that.

I, true to form, started throwing up during our conversation this morning so it was disjointed. It's almost impossible to have a meaningful conversation when one of the parties is running to the bathroom every few minutes to vomit.

Before he left, I told him the problem is in me, not him. That he has been lovely, and I project all of my anger at myself on him. He's tired of being my projection screen and who can blame him? I told him I want him to come home, but of course the choice is up to him.

Now I'm angry at myself for screwing up AGAIN. I can't seem to get a handle on what my problem is. I try to listen to everyone here and I have truly followed all of the advice, but maybe I shouldn't have. Maybe I shouldn't have cut all my friends and family members who knew about the A out of my life -- It left me so isolated. Maybe I shouldn't be open and honest with him -- it hurts his feelings. Maybe I shouldn't have followed the advice to table my feelings for the time being. Maybe my Taker simply found another way to come out, and when she does she is ALWAYS furious.

Maybe I'm irredeemable, if not in his eyes, then in mine.

Maybe I'm incapable of receiving love. Maybe the FOO scars just run too deep.

Maybe I can't forgive myself and so I can't receive forgiveness.

Maybe I should let him go and find someone who isn't a string of DSM mental codes.

I can't blame him for giving up on me. I'd give up on me too. Maybe that's the baseline problem. Maybe I already have given up on me.

He's gone now, and I don't know if he will come back or not. Maybe that's what I deserve. Maybe I made sure I got what I deserved. Maybe I should stop fighting for the M and just let the poor man be. I'm ruining his life. He loves me, and I'm ruining his life.

I just want to crawl in a hole, curl up in a fetal position, cry and lick my wounds.
But S15 doesn't allow for that kind of self indulgence so I have exactly one hour and 46 minutes to pull myself together.

I'm so lost. I don't have anyone left to talk to.

Sorry, this is sort of a core dump. I don't know what to do and I am a DOER. Maybe I should just leave the poor man alone.

Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/07/10 07:40 PM
(((((Saddest)))) I know you changed your name but right now this one is more appropriate.

I don't know what to say, nor do I have much time to say it but I thoughts are with you. I can relate so much to what you say. I have done and felt the same things....not good enough, always disappointing...go and throw an affair on top of that and there seems like no coming back from that.

But there is.

And you know it.

Which is why you are here. So listen, and absorb and cut yourself some slack.

Good luck.
Posted By: Nanowritersix Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/07/10 07:59 PM
SB, take a deep breath and get back up on the horse again.

Two suggestions:

Schoolbus recommended a book, "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting Out of the Box." I'm reading it and getting a lot out of it--from what you're saying here, you might, too.

Get some progesterone cream. Seriously. I can't find the name of it, but some doctor wrote a book about how women in perimenopause are usually totally lacking in progesterone, causing an estrogen imbalance. Too much estrogen=irritable and combatative. He says that unfortunately women tend to be treated for menopausal symptoms with more estrogen, which just makes things worse. If you google Amazon, you can probably figure out the book if you're interested. Believe me, I've laid in a stock of this stuff!

Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/07/10 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Nanowritersix
Get some progesterone cream. Seriously. I can't find the name of it, but some doctor wrote a book about how women in perimenopause are usually totally lacking in progesterone, causing an estrogen imbalance. Too much estrogen=irritable and combatative. He says that unfortunately women tend to be treated for menopausal symptoms with more estrogen, which just makes things worse. If you google Amazon, you can probably figure out the book if you're interested. Believe me, I've laid in a stock of this stuff!


In general support to this idea, I have found that SO MUCH of my behavior and feelings are driven by hormonal factors. Me, who always prided myself on never PMSing and never being governed by hormones...Yeah I've had to eat crow on this one.

Birth control, for me, made me continually irritable and hostile towards my husband. I'd been on it for YEARS before we were married and figured the problem was him- only to find out when we started trying to have kids that I was a completely different person off of it.

Hormones and your biology really CAN affect your moods and behavior and perception of those you love. I'm sorry you're in such a bad place. I think it awesome that your husband, rather than retaliating to your hostility decided to be loving towards you instead. That says a lot about him.
Posted By: Hitch2007 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/07/10 08:33 PM
Saddest

what's going on? I thought about what you would say to me and you got to get yourself out of that foetel position and make a stand for your marriage.

It sounds like to me as though you have gone over board to make up for your affair. You got to cut yourself some slack for goodness sake.

Please please get it together, you have a wonderful H who is supporting you through this. Remember that boundary you remind me of, self care? You need it right now. Do something for yourself to self soothe.

Take care saddest, I mean it.

Hitch
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 03:50 AM
OK, I just spent the entire evening re-reading my thread, or at least most of it. I do not recommend this activity for anyone who is already feeling bad about themselves but rubbing salt in my wounds is a favored coping tactic of mine. If cutting had been in vogue when I was younger, I would have sliced and diced like mad.

And here is what jumped out at me: we aren't speaking the same language.

He announced to me that he is going hunting after his business trip and my first thought was "that's fine with me, but we didn't POJA it." He hasn't a clue what POJA is.

We have a student from India staying with us for a couple of weeks through an exchange program who just arrived tonight, and here I am alone with dealing with what was meant to be a family experience. It's my own fault -- I was horribly unpleasant to him, but still. I don't even know if he is coming back while the kid is here.

S15's tennis coach came up to me tonight and said, not in so many words, that it is very clear that my MIL doesn't like S15. That made me feel better as I now feel I am not as crazy. Mother bears know.

I need to get H on board with MB. I want him to talk to SteveH. He doesn't want to. I want him to read a book. He doesn't want to. I'm trying to implement this from one side. It isn't working.

I wonder why he is so resistant.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 05:44 AM
Have you talked with Steve Harley about how to get your husband on board?
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 02:38 PM
I feel like I saw a forum one time for women's issues but I can't find it -- is there such a thing?

Great tip -- HRT would never have occurred to me. I'm too young for menopausal issues, right? Just ignore that 50 at the bottom of the page next to the W.

Nanowritersix, found and ordered the book. Thanks.

Vibrissa -- I had the same problem with the pill which a very perceptive dr. picked up on my second year of law school. I tried it a couple of more times over the years, with the same result every time. I wonder if I am just extremely sensitive to hormone levels. I hate anything that smacks of female problem excuse making, but I'm going to ask my doctor.

Markos, last time I talked to SteveH I was just certain my H would talk to him so we didn't discuss a strategy. The first time I talked to SteveH he suggested I tell H that I'd talked to him, that it seemed like he knew what was what, and would he please call.

I think I need to try that again.

H did tell me last night he isn't going to D over this last week but that I need to learn faster and better.

I'm pretty depressed today. I've been working SO HARD on the M. I'm weary. I can't seem to stop making mistakes. I'm tired of getting it wrong. I feel so small. Maybe I'm just not capable of being a good W, but it's not from lack of effort. I've seen this episode play out in my M a million times. I am so sick of it.

We'll see if he decides to come home. In the meantime, thank God, there are flowers and bulbs to plant.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 04:27 PM
Quote
And NO princessmeggy, I am not making ONE BIT of that up -- any more than I made up H criticizing me for buying too many paper towels at Costco.


Huh?????
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 06:08 PM
"Maybe I'm not capable of being a good W"


I would like you to do something.

Funny thing coming from someone newer than you, but here goes:

You recently said you stepped back and read over your own thread. I have just read over your thread.

Do you even fathom how far you have come over the past few months? SB, you are far more than capable. Think of the transitions you have made, the achievements in your life. Law school, motherhood, and this.

Nothing is wasted on your H, even if sometimes you can't see it.

Yes you have worked hard. And it makes you weary, and it feels like you make a lot of mistakes. I'm sure other WS's would echo your sentiments through recovery.

I know my FWW does. When we hit those drops in the recovery coaster, she's in the car next to me, and beats herself up.

It's not that she has failed, it's not that I have failed - recovery is just a roller coaster, it's jagged.

I'm sure in your life and/or studies you have read about the stages of grieving - and recovery is a grieving process. While they are always listed in a particular order, you don't go through the process in order, and you can jump around and repeat steps, fall out of acceptance go back to denial. It sucks, plain and simple.
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 06:37 PM
princessmeggy, I had a post in early August where, among other things, I described my H's sister's AP and H's critical nature, and your response was "You're a great writer, too bad it's all BS."

It stung me. It would have stung from anyone, but you are a vet. I've thought about it every single time I have posted since then.

It wasn't BS. Not a word of it.

It still isn't.

I'm still in that place. Lost and in pain with no clear idea of what I'm supposed to do next. It's horrible.

You of course are free to say whatever to anyone who posts here. That's the way it works. Your post hurt me. I don't know what your purpose was. You have no obligation to explain. I was sufficiently concerned about my credibility that I made up a new screen name to post to a man with an international custody issue as I thought the "saddest" imprimatur might distract from the substance of my advice.

I'm more wary now than when I started -- far more careful about what I say and how I say it because I don't want to be called a liar again. That may be good, or it may render this an exercise in futility. I don't know yet.

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 07:02 PM
... and how far you have not.

Your actions have damaged your credibility over and over. Own that. It's OK. It really is. You still fight to uphold that even here, and it has to be exhausting. Behave credibly, and you regain credibility. If you are behaving credibly, then there is no reason for it to be called into question, and no reason to be stung by it when it is.

You have forgiveness issues. It's playing out here. It probably plays out at home with your H.

It's not a judgment, we can all be guilty of this, it's a mechanism to help defend ourselves from harm. However, it can also cause us to shut out those we love, and those who try to help us because their honesty hurts.

Don't get discouraged. You are undergoing a process of changing your thoughts, actions, and reactions. As you erase those old behaviors, your self-defense mechanisms are going to go off with all the bells and sirens.

Ignore them. They are denying you the opportunity to change and move forward.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
princessmeggy, I had a post in early August where, among other things, I described my H's sister's AP and H's critical nature, and your response was "You're a great writer, too bad it's all BS."

It stung me. It would have stung from anyone, but you are a vet. I've thought about it every single time I have posted since then.

It wasn't BS. Not a word of it.

It still isn't.

I'm still in that place. Lost and in pain with no clear idea of what I'm supposed to do next. It's horrible.


Here's the EXACT post I made. The BS I was referring to were the prior pages and pages of your posts justifying, defending, deflecting, getting it, not getting it, ranting at people, withdrawing, apologizing, arguing why MB won't work for you, ad nauseum...

I guess you could say I'm a vet or not... whatever..



Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Originally Posted by saddestwife
THX GM. THX everyone actually. All this input is really helping me clarify.
Originally Posted by GreenMile
you have been looking out for #1 all your life.

The end result is the same, but my problem is the reverse -- I have been looking out for everyone but me. I've been in IC for years trying to bring my Giver and Taker into balance.

When I first got married I read somewhere that you should give 100% to the M regardless of what your partner was giving, and I ran with that. No sacrifice was beyond me. "Sure honey, go hunting for 4 days and leave me at home with 3 small children after working 60 hours this week." And don't jump on me for keeping score. It's just an example.

I got mad, then I got numb, then I got naked.

Originally Posted by Greenmile
You are simply going to have to learn to experience and hold in your own pain, to sacrifice your needs for some indeterminate healing period, without regard or thought to whose share of "fault" anything that went before was. When it gets to be too much, just be honest and say you are needing some alone time, and go into another room and meditate on these things, read part of a book, take a few deep breaths, and then go back and renew your efforts.

The 24/7 thing is too much. I had the second panic attack of my whole life yesterday afternoon -- whole shebang, pounding heart, shaking, tingling fingertips. I have to get away from him for a few hours. I don't have an agenda. I just need to breathe.

I liked it way better back when I didn't have any needs, or at least any needs that I knew of. Actually, the only need I have right now is the need to not be scared. I liked it way better when I hadn't done anything more wrong than plant shade flowers in the sun or buy paper towels in bulk at Costco.

Originally Posted by Greenmile
Are you up to it?

It's looking doubtful. I don't think I can do this for two more months. Two years is out of the question.

I don't think I can unilaterally disarm even if I wanted to, and I don't want to. It's too dangerous. My pre - A fear of him was well founded. My defenses were built for very legitimate reasons.

I'm really depressed and this is about the last place a discouraged WW should come. I think being berated when I am depressed and discouraged feels normal to me. H knows something is wrong but he doesn't know what, and it is making him nervous. I don't know how to articulate the despair so I am pretending I'm fine but I am not fine and he knows it and the fact that he knows it means I am losing my touch and that makes me panic too and I have got to get a grip.

I thought I was going to be able to talk to SteveH tomorrow, but that window closed. The program doesn't seem adaptive to implementation from the WS's side. I am jealous of all that WW's whose BH's are Plan A'ing them. Some vision that things could be different someday would give me some hope. Right now, all I see is the prospect of more years of lying, lying, lying about what I am thinking and needing. I am beyond sick of lying. So I've pretty much shut up. Again.

I'm hoping to return to numb in the very near future. Numb was good, or at least better than this. My S19 is coming with his GF and he can look at me and tell in an instant that something is wrong so I have GOT to get a grip. And my MIL is coming tomorrow with H's married sister and her longtime BF (yes, you read that right.)

The fun never stops.

I am eyeing the opening day of dove season hungrily.



skeptical You're a great writer, too bad it's all BS.




Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Ignore them. They are denying you the opportunity to change and move forward.


rotflmao
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
As you erase those old behaviors, your self-defense mechanisms are going to go off with all the bells and sirens.

Ignore them. They are denying you the opportunity to change and move forward.
I think she means to ignore the self-defence mechanisms, meggy.

Is that right, HHH?
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 08:37 PM
Yes, I think HHH is saying to ignore the temptation to be defensive and shut out those who are trying to help us.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 08:43 PM
Oops, sorry. I totally read that wrong!!
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 10:19 PM
Hi Seeking,

Well, I wanted to post someting encouraging to you, but all I can say is that I will just say some prayers, because I honestly cannot figure where you are at this moment or what you need. I am not a neophyte at marriage, but you would be a challenge!

Seriously Seeking, I think Hitch said something that strikes home to me - maybe you are overboard in terms of the A and the aftermath. You can kick yourself if you have done something wrong, but if you continue to kick yourself you probably will stay down. The other thing I am thinking is maybe depression. Have you looked into this for yourself? Guilt is a necessary tool to help us change. It can be devastating tho if we let it bring us down and think ill of ourselves.

Just please take care. I do not know what elee to say honestly.

Tom
Posted By: Hitch2007 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 10:30 PM
Seeking

I just believe you need a kick up the booty. You have a H who loves you and is willing to work things through, you lucky lucky thing.

Please tell us what is the problem. You were there when I needed you, please share it with US.

Hitch.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/08/10 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
As you erase those old behaviors, your self-defense mechanisms are going to go off with all the bells and sirens.

Ignore them. They are denying you the opportunity to change and move forward.
I think she means to ignore the self-defence mechanisms, meggy.

Is that right, HHH?

Yes, I am referring to self-defense mechanisms, not to posters on MB.


SB, have your read over How the Co-Dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages? I think that based on some of your background, that this is something that could be very eye-opening to you.

As a person who grew up around 12-step programs, I lived my marriage encouraging as much independence for my FWW as I could. I thought I was helping her, but in retrospect, I was dooming my marriage to fail.

Cut away your professional attitudes. They didn't prevent you from falling as far as you did, so how could they possibly help you recover?
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 12:49 AM
HHH -- I can't say I have read every single word published by Dr. H on this website and in his books, but I've come damn close, and much of it twice.

Originally Posted by headheldhigh
Cut away your professional attitudes.

I don't know what this means.

Originally Posted by headheldhigh
your self-defense mechanisms are going to go off with all the bells and sirens.

I don�t know what this means either. I have tried to be resolute in telling my truth here. What princessmeggy characterized as pages of BS, which is her right, was my enormous pain and confusion. It was my truth at that time. I�m still in enormous pain and confusion. That's my truth now. Maybe it�s still BS. I have no way of knowing.

Originally Posted by tom2010
maybe you are overboard in terms of the A and the aftermath.

I don't know how much more I can feel. At some point, the psyche shuts down and says "no more feeling anything" but everything I read says "yes, there is more horribleness you need to feel".

Originally Posted by headhealhigh
You have forgiveness issues.

Which start with me being unable to forgive myself. Perfection is the standard.

When have I punished myself enough? Or is that even possible? What is remorse anyway?

I have done every single thing that has been suggested both here and in the books. I may have argued about it but I did it. I deeply regret cutting out all of my friends who knew about the A but didn't tell my H -- I think that was a really bad decision for me --but what's done is done. The resulting isolation has been painful, but I figured it was the cost of admission.

It all goes fine as long as I am cheerful and pleasant and attentive and apologetic. Even being withdrawn is occasionally OK. I�ve done that for three months.

When I move into conflict -- not with him so much as within myself -- he moves to another state.

He abandons me. He always has.

All us WW's don't get BH's like Wheels. Some of us get H's who want to work it out until it gets hard. I've made the last three months easy, or as easy as I could figure out how to make them. I hit a bad slump, which I knew was coming and even posted about, and he played the A card then the D card then he left then he calls me once to put the D card back in his hand and tells me I need to "learn faster and better". What am I supposed to do with that?

He leaves. That's what he does. I guess that means he trusts me.

So no, MB isn�t working for me so far. I need to learn faster and better. I only wish I knew how.
Posted By: markos Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
Originally Posted by tom2010
maybe you are overboard in terms of the A and the aftermath.

I don't know how much more I can feel. At some point, the psyche shuts down and says "no more feeling anything" but everything I read says "yes, there is more horribleness you need to feel".

You've been misreading.

The problem is not what you need to feel. The problem is what you need to DO and who you need to do it FOR.

Some posters emphasize feelings of remorse because that helps motivate some people to do the right thing.

It's not about what you need to feel, and most importantly it's not about YOU.

It's about your husband.

You can feel horrible for a million years and it won't help anything at all.
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by markos
The problem is what you need to DO and who you need to do it FOR.

Then help me. Please. I don't know what else I am supposed to do.
Posted By: Scotland Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 01:38 AM
What I think you need to do is stop trying to tell your BH what he needs to do. Also, I think, only from your posts, that there may be some DJ's in your actions. You feel the need to sacrifice and then that leads to resentment and yet your BH didn't even ask for that in the first place. Maybe if your BH sees you DOING more things the MB way, not Seeking way, maybe then he will get on board with your marriage. You need to be honest with him. You need to tell him what you want in a marriage, what you can bring to a marriage and that you know some things that can help you tremendously.

Do you have any of DrH's books? If you do, you could leave them out. You could just talk about MB in a casual way and not try to seem like you are teaching. Have you asked him about checking out the site? Maybe even about reading on the forums(although, I would suggest that he not read this thread, yet).

As far as what you are feeling, you are absolutely feeling this way, NOW. The thing about feelings is, they can CHANGE. You didn't always feel this way about your BH. Remember that you once felt much differently, and with the help of MB, you CAN feel that way again.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by seekingbalance
We talked last night and again this morning and this is precisely what he wants. He wants me to take the bull by the horns and go live my life and stop worrying about this all the time. He wants me to stop beating myself up and get excited about my life again. He actually wants me to re-connect with my friends (my mind reading skills are not NEARLY as good as I like to think they are.)

It's been a few days since you posted the above, but did you forget what y'all talked about and, from all indications, how you seemed to have found yourself in a better place in life?

Originally Posted by seekingbalance
I get myself all tied up in knots because I think I have to be perfect and then when I finally open up to him it's always fine. The more times it's fine, the easier it will be.

Time to open up again. Maybe print out part of your recent threads and read him your thoughts. If you don't want him to try to fix it, comment or interject, preface it by saying that you just want him to listen, that it's important that you get out what you need to say.

Good or bad, honesty and openness is a great thing and makes for a perfect opportunity to better understand your spouse, spark conversation, get on the same page, etc. What do you have to lose, you know you cannot keep it bottled in like this and, from what you've written, it sounds as though he's reasonably in touch with his feelings.

Not trying to hound you, but if there was resentment before all this and y'all didn't talk, then you're on a path to repeating history. Kind of like invading Russia in the winter, ha ha. It doesn't work too well.

Originally Posted by seekingbalance
It took us a long time to get to this point, and it will take us a long time to repair. That's OK too. There is absolutely no legitimate reason why we shouldn't have a great M and enjoy the next part of our lives.

We went out to dinner for our anniversary and made our "bucket list", an activity I HIGHLY recommend....It was a great starting point for looking forward, and a lot of fun.

When he gets back from his trip, which, by the way, I suspect was him just trying to escape all this for a while and think, bring out your bucket list and pick something.

[Insert 2x4 here] or, if not a trip to Italy, then please get the h out of the house and DO SOMETHING FUN!!!! He wants you to do it (see your post above) and, it appears, wants to be included as well.

Trust me, it's so much harder to be melancholy when you're laughing or having a good time. Even if it's only for a brief moment, it's worth getting there and will get better with practice. Key word there, practice and forcing yourself to step out of the box, to change what has never worked, break old habits, fake it 'till you make it, whatever you want to call it.

Originally Posted by seekingbalance
That night he said, "if I don't figure out how to be a good husband, I'm going to live a miserable life." The next day he cried because I didn't care enough about him not to cheat and he's afraid he's not "the one" for me. It was extremely emotional.

Hence the hunting trip.

It sounds like you're soooo close but just cannot get over that hill. Remember when y'all were talking about the bucket list?

If someone had asked you at that precise moment...
"Are you in a better place and do you have a better connection than you have had in a very long time?" What would you have said? Go back there.

Repeat what works, quit doing what doesn't work.

Did you tell your husband about what your son's coach said about your MIL? Has your son told you or, particularly, his father his thoughts about his grandmother?

Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Scotland
You feel the need to sacrifice and then that leads to resentment and yet your BH didn't even ask for that in the first place....You need to tell him what you want in a marriage, what you can bring to a marriage and that you know some things that can help you tremendously.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Scotland hit the nail on the head here.

I used to do the EXACT same thing (my wife isn't one for housework and we have two kids) and I resented the stew out of her for years. When we finally talked about it, she said "Oh, I didn't know it was that important to you, but thanks for telling me because I wondered what was getting to you." Now she's stepping up because she knows how important it is to me.

What a relief it was. Resentment and anger can consume you, and you cannot imagine what a relief it is to know that you have no issues that have not been aired or addressed. The whole openness/honesty thing is potent. No secrets, no harbored complaints or resentments. It's a bizarre feeling, one I don't think I've ever had before with regards to my wife.



Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/09/10 02:16 AM
Seeking, first off hug

I havent posted to you before, but I have been following along, because everything you say reminds me so much of myself. I have not had anything of value that I thought might help you until now.

I think I know where you are at. I know that place, very well. I spent of my childhood with a step-father who was physically abusive to my mom, and metally abusive to me. I could do NOTHING right, ever. I was criticized and put down, degraded and humilated for everything. I developed a very serious perfection issue. Any type of criticsm from anyone was devastating to me. I thought I had worked out those issues (mostly because even though I had gotten a great deal of confidence back it was still a joke among everyone who knew me that you could blame me for absolutely anything and I would find a way to convince myself it was my fault).

Then I married my H. He was clean when I met him, and when I married him, but soon after that fell back into a drug and alcohol addiction that I wasnt aware he had. He started cheating almost immediately. He is a champion at blaming others, and I was a champion at accepting blame. Instead of admitting to me or himself that the substance abuse was the problem, he picked at my weaknesses and my insecurities and told me that was why he did it. I wasnt good enough, or pretty enough. All of my confidence was shattered.

When I started contemplating suicide on a regular basis I decided I was done, and I had a revenge ONS on what I believed was my way out the door. When you described your A as rage incarnate I knew exactly what you meant.

Even though my H is starting to get help, and he has mostly stopped blaming me, I still have those moments where I just dont care one bit if I hurt him, like what you posted not long ago.

I dont know if you have family of origin issues like I do, but it sounds like most of your marriage has felt to you like one long and drawn out assault on your self-esteem. You have never felt like you were good enough, you try and try and it never is enough. You had tried everything you knew to try and his assaults just continued until you snapped. Thats exactly what I felt.

What I am learning now is-

The moments that I feel like I dont care if I hurt him are the moments when he reverts to acting like he was before, or I get triggered and reminded of what he was doing before. I go back to feeling like he is the enemy. I feel like because he hurt me its ok for me to have hurt him. Which makes me sound like a little kid on the playground saying "He hit me first!" I dont want to be that person, because reguardless of what he did to me it's still not ok to hit. I tell my children that, and I should know it myself.

My H treated me badly because I ALLOWED him to, the first time I told my H that he could blame me if it helped him feel less guilty but I would no longer listen to it... I felt POWERFUL, much more so than hurting him back had ever made me feel.

I am not, and will never be perfect. This one is hard. Who remembers that their husband criticised them about paper towels months ago? People like you and me do, because even the smallest criticism is painful to us. Your sense of self worth is very low, so it doesnt take much to wound it. What can you do help you feel better about you? Once you start to do that, you wont feel so easily wounded, or defeated, or angered. You wont feel the need to attack your H for every little thing. You will also be able to better uphold your boundaries with him, and everyone else. You will be much better able to control your emotions, and avoid incidents like what just happened, because you will be able to act according to your plan instead of reacting to a situation that makes you feel like you are under attack. If you love yourself more, that criticism wont matter to you as much, and you will be able to let it roll off you.

You will also be able to stop tearing yourself apart, and making yourself miserable, and be able to focus on healing your H and being happy in your M. You are punishing yourself because you feel like it is what you deserve for not being perfect.

I didnt mean to write a novel, sorry for the length, and I could be wrong about all of it. Just take what applies if anything and toss out the rest.

What did you say to your H when he left the state and told you that you needed to learn faster and better?
Posted By: seekingbalance Re: I ended it -- now what? - 10/30/10 03:46 AM
Quote
most of your marriage has felt to you like one long and drawn out assault on your self-esteem.

Yes.

RFA, I have read your post probably 20 times, and I'll bet I will read it 20 times more. I might even get desperate enough to have my H read it-- layer of protection there since it's not from me!

Thank you.
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