Hello All,

I found this site a little while ago while searching for answers but now I need input and I see some of the great advice given by the people here and could use some myself.

Bit of background - I am a 40 year old man and have been married to the love of my life for just over ten years now. She is 37. It is the second marriage for both of us. I have one boy from my first marriage, now 16 and she has two boys from her first - 10 and 19. My first marriage ended when my ex-wife notified me out of the blue that she was leaving me for her high school sweetheart and my wife's first marriage ended when her husband ran off with the 18 year old babysitter. We have been happily married for ten years, we are financially stable and life was good - very good, at least until recently.

Not long after New Year's day, my wife's sister came to visit and told us about a New Year's party she attended where she ran into a childhood friend of theirs. Let's call him T. T gave my wife's sister his email and said he'd like to keep in touch with her and my wife. I should say that her sister is married as well (but in a troubled marriage). Her sister gave my wife the email address and a week or so later, my wife emailled him. She told me about it and even showed me the email, just the standard "Hey, how are you? How's life? Here's what I've been up to", etc. She did tell him about me and our marriage and described it as "blissful"

His initial reply was similiar but there were a couple things that kind of bothered me. Not so much in what he said, but the general tone and one thing he said made the hair on my neck stand up - "Ever go out for club nights with the girls? Where to?" To me that translates to "When can I see you in an environment where you may be drinking without your husband around?" I said as much to my wife, but she responded that I was being silly and she doesn't go to clubs without me anyway.

Over the following weeks, they emailled a few times and then, around March, they started chatting on MSN. I found that out quite by accident. That's when I started getting suspicious and checked her chat history and her emails. I have been an IT Manager for many years and I know my way inside a computer. Here is a sample of what I saw:

Her: So your a fireman? Have you been a hero?

Her: Men in uniform make me melt.

Him: I don't have a problem going slow, but I want to meet soon for a coffee if nothing else.

The tone of their conversations sound flirty to me even though they speak of their spouses. He did tell her his marriage is in trouble and he could use a female perspective but I haven't seen any other mention of it.

Right or wrong I confronted her about it and why she didn't tell me. She maintained it was innocent, that they haven't met and that I needed to trust her. She continued to chat with him but she figured out how to turn off the chat recording. That made me suspicious so I installed a keylogger, but before I could she and I talked about the situation and I pointed out the many things that bothered me about her conversations with him. She told me that if the situations were reversed she would expect me to end all contact but she wasn't sure how to "word it" so we wrote the email together. Basically, it was "This has gotten out of hand, I am happily married, never intended any intimate conversation, respect our spouses" and so on. She told me he kept sending her emails and wanting to chat. I suggested she block him and delete him and I would intervene if she wanted me to. It was around then I installed the keylogger but did not check it (it's an old one I used on the kids computers so you have to be on the computer to check the logs). That was a couple of weeks ago.

Last week, her computer was having trouble and she wanted me to check it so I pulled the logs and she chatted with him last Tuesday. Here is the entire chat:

Him: You must have been disappointed, you don't even miss me.

Her: Can't chat. Don't know if it is being recorded.

Him: Then call me.

Her: Sec

I had tried to reach her on Tuesday, but couldn't. She had told me she was showing a house (she is a realtor) and I confronted her about it. A major blowup resulted and she admitted that she had gone to his house when she told me she was working. She threw everything back in my face, saying that she was sorry - sorry that my jealousy and controlling behaviour led her to having to lie just to help a dear friend through a rough time. WTH?????

Things have calmed down since, but there is a real tension in the air and I have no idea what to do or how to handle it. Anytime I mention it, I get the standard "Nothing is going on, just a friend in need. You need to stop being so jealous" Is this what you folks call an emotional affair (EA?). Sorry, I don't know all the abbreviations here. Any advice how to handle it would be appreciated.

Yes she is having an affiar...purchase a GPS for her car and a VAR, there, is where you will find your evidence because she knows about the installer on the computer. If they are chatting it is most likely inside the car.

Get all the evidence you need and expose the A to EVERYONE! Friends, Family, Co-workers, kids, etc....I know this will be hard but if you truly want to save your marriage then that is your best bet

Sorry you are here, but you also need to read EVERYTHING on this site...start HERE...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2370240&nt=9&page=1

There is good stuff on that thread!

GOOD LUCK!

Welcome to MB and I am sorry you are here.

Have you done any other snooping on your wife? Have you thought about a GPS? VAR? There is also a phone tapping device you can buy at Radio Shack.

If you do snoop on your wife more, and you find things(which I am almost positive you WILL), DON'T USE IT right away. You will use it at the right time and in the right way.

Here is a thread I started for newly betrayed spouses. You should read it and ask questions as you need to.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240#Post2370240

Yep its an EA. Sorry to hear it. You need to be strong and contact his wife. Get her copies of the chats and e-mails. Let your kids and her family know. If needed show them the e-mails too. Tell her that "we will ask the kids their opinion too"

BEAT YA Scotland! I just love that thread you started it helps out a ton!!

I would actually assume it is physical, you know she was over his house, so I am 90% sure they did something! Why do you think your wife is so defensive? When she starts to get angry more, giving you excuses, and lying, it is because she is hiding something.

It could also be a PA. At the very least it is an EA.

Thanks for the quick replies and the links guys. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do (and I've already done a bunch before I posted)

I truly don't believe this has become physical. maybe I'm delusional but I just don't feel it. Or do I not want to believe it?

One thing I can't seem to get my head around is the calling of this type of situation an affair. I get the reasoning for it, but it goes against what I always defined an affair to be. No doubt there are lots of preconceptions I will have to deal with.

Now off to do some reading.

Thanks Again.

It is mainly this...you do not want to believe it, but I would assume the worst right about now, even if it's not a PA, then it sure is a EA, and EA's can still destroy a family! Trust me! I was in 2 EA's before my husband finally exposed, and right after he did that, the fog started to lift, and the fantasy died very quickly!

One quick question - what's a VAR?

It is a Voice Activated Recorder

Voice Activated Recorder

Hey STOP THAT. HEHEHEHE.

I don't type very fast. :P

I am going to go back to playing Farmville on FB now.

end t/j

ok, this has evolved to a full fledged affair, I am sorry to say. Is the OM married?

HAHAHA!! Sorry I do type fast but it never hurts to give advise twice! heh heh

Yes he is married, well that is what I had read,

Yup.

tlcanuck, besides spying to gather intel, you need to find OM's address, phone number...everything you can.

B/c once you find evidence, you'll need to expose this affair to everyone. ESPECIALLY to OM's W. She can be your greatest ally in breaking up this affair.

DO NOT warn your WW that you intend to do this. Exposure must be a surprise, in order to be most effective.

And I agree w/ Mel, your WW is in a full fledged affair. NOT just an emotional affair.

Also, check your WW's phone records.

tlacanuck, like the others said exposure is your greatest weapon against the affair. In your case, I would predict it will end the affair fairly quickly because the OM is not going to want to lose his marriage over a piece of fun.

Here is what Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders says about exposure:

entire article here

I agree. OM was just looking for some fun.

You picked it up w/ that first email of his. He just had to be patient and meet your WW's number one EN for conversation, and then he'd get what he wanted from her.

Once this affair is exposed, the A will fall apart.

Her anger at you after discovering she met w/ him, was all about getting you to BACK OFF, so she can continue her A w/o you interfering.

Well I found the list of abbreviations so it's easier to understand. Been reading all morning and I have to say there are some amazing people here. The strength, determination and fortitude some of you folks have shown in your stories is awe-inspiring. I don't think I'd be able to handle the situations you have without a complete meltdown.

The strange thing is we have (had?) a pretty much perfect MB marriage without even knowing such a thing existed. Total openess and honesty, what you guys call undivided attention, we call "us time". We regularly talk about our individual needs in our marriage and always do our best to fulfill them for each other. I talked to my sister about our situation this past weekend and she told me our problem was we were too close, that we needed lives and friends outside the marriage. How can a married couple possibly be too close?

I'm struggling mightily with the notion that this has become a physical affair. How, when, where and most of all why? I seem to swing between believing in her and our marriage and wanting to find this guy and rip him limb from limb.

As for the OM (that phrase feels so dirty) he is married, but from what little I have heard, the story is his wife is a control freak that makes his life a living hell and he doesn't know where to turn.

I read in another thread that someone in my position should not tell my wife I am on here. Doesn't that go against the policy of honesty? It feels wrong for me to even be doing this.

I've thought about going to see him. I am 6'2", 210 lbs and very well built and I can be the most intimidating SOB around when I need to so I've been tempted to just go see him and tell him to stay away from my wife or he'll find out what living hell really is.

I just don't know how to handle it. I will intensify my snooping so I can have some hard facts but I am actually afraid of what I will find and I don't know how I'll be able to keep it to myself until I am ready to deal with it properly. I'm not good at secrets and I'm not good at hiding my emotions.

It's not strange at all.

Good marriages do suffer from infidelity. Happens all the time.

The trouble w/ yours was your lack of proper boundaries! Your WW should never have been emailing w/ another man.

That's right! Do not tell your WW about this place!!

You can practice O&H after her A is over and you are in recovery.



Awesome! OM are cowards. If you believe you can talk to him w/o beating the snot out of him...or getting your butt thrown in jail, go ahead and do it.

I have the self-control to not "beat the snot" out of him (but it feels good thinking about it). I'm just afraid it would drive my wife to his defense and make me the bad guy.

Also, do not threaten to tell his W. B/c that will give him a heads up, and he will tell his W that you are a pyscho. That way when you tell her about the A, she will be inclined to disbelieve you.

Never threaten to expose. Exposure must come as a big surprise.

Yup. That is what is likely to happen. The angrier she is at you, the more effective your little talk w/ OM was.

You see, you're WW is addicted to OM. And if you interfer w/ her getting her "fix" it will make her very angry.

Your M can survive her anger, but not an ongoing affair.

OM may choose to end it after you talk to him. Which will make your WW very angry. Or...they may take their affair further underground. Which is why exposure is so important.

His W needs to know.

ETA: That way she can watch from her side and you can watch from yours. And you can compare notes.

Gee, OMW's a control freak? Think a wife who knows her H runs around might try to keep a tight reign him?

A living hell, huh? He doesn't know where to turn? So he turns to other men's wives?

This guy is a number one POS.

You come to this thread and vent.

Tell us what you find and we will help you w/ your emotions and your strategy.

Here's a Do and Don't list that Mr. W brought here.

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Don�t believe a word OM says about his wife. Odds are super high that she�s just fine and that he�s using the excuse of �being on the rocks� to talk to your wife and other women. It gets him sympathy and attention.

I had no clue I was so horrible until I read my exww�s emails to other men while she flirted with them. I also had no clue we were divorcing, despite the fact she told all of them we were.

Imagine her shock when confronted about this. Apparently, all the guys she was flirting with were liars.

Basic point: Waywards lie. The best thing you can do to really kill this is to contact OM�s wife.

Don�t warn anyone. Simply talk to her, tell her that her H is talking to your W and that you�re not comfortable with how they�ve communicated. You�re worried such contact could lead to an affair, if that line hasn�t been crossed already.

Just communicating this to her will probably do 90% of what is need to end this inappropriate friendship, which is exactly what it is.

Your WW will go nuts. She�ll get angry as he77. That�s fine. You can survive that, but you can�t survive an affair.

The biggest thing for you to do is to keep your cool. When she loses it, simply respond with, �I will do what I need to to save this marriage and protect it.�

She already admitted that if the situation was reversed that she would want you to cutoff contact.

Now, I won�t jump the gun yet and assume it�s gone physical. It may not have, but steel yourself for that possibility. I didn�t wish it in my situation, but it ended up being the case.

The key for you is to not warn her of your actions. Don�t tell her, �This stops or else I will (contact OM�s wife, tell your parents, tell the kids, etc�)� Those are things that need to be done without warning if you have solid proof of an affair.

Your line is simple: �Your contact with OM is hurtful, it�s uncomfortable, and I�d like it to stop. If it doesn�t, then there are going to be serious problems between us. If he wants a counselor, then he can hire one. I don�t like the nature of the contact with you.�

That puts it all in her court. She can�t yell at you for controlling her since you haven�t told her what to do. You�ve told her what her actions are doing and how they make you feel and the eventual outcome of those actions.

It will hopefully put a stop to things.

But unlikely.

Keep the keylogger secret and DO NOT reveal that you�re on this site. That�s only to be done if she wishes to help recover your marriage and wants to eat massive amounts of humble pie and get help here. Otherwise she will turn this site against you.

TLCANCUCK

Try to keep in mind that the euphoric state of an affair turns the most stable individual into liars. They will tell you anything that allows them to feed the addiction of the affair. Right now you cannot believe what your wife is telling you. She is drunk on the euphoria of the affair.

Actions speak not words. If she saw him at his home that is a big red flag. I would be very suspicious. I have to agree that right now you need to expose this in a big way. The two love birds need the harsh reality of their actions exposed.

My heart goes out to you. I have gone through this too and it is one of the most difficult things a person will ever have to face.

Blessings
BCboy

Your W met OM and lied about her whereabouts, and then got mad when you questioned her about it??? I will bet the farm that this has turned into a PA. Waywards ALWAYS lie about the length and nature about an A. Find out contact info for the OM and contact his W immediately. Expose EVERYTHING to her and don't let your W know you are doing it. An A stops being so exciting to cheaters once it is brought into the light and not hidden in some sleezy hotel room. The OM is not your W friend, he is her AP (affair partner). Any relationship with an outside individual that makes a spouse uncomfortable should be ended - period. No compromising. Waywards become really good liars. I swear before D-Day, I believed that my DH had the uttermost integrity. The lies he told were ridiculous! If you don't expose this A you are going to loose your W and your M. She is going to fight you because she is getting the feel goods from this A but you have to Plan A and expose immediately.

Wow, thanks for all the advice and support. You don't know how much it means. I just got back from lunch and I work about 5 minutes away from my home so I go home to lunch and there is a positive development.

When I got home W had prepared lunch for me. I usually just grab a quick sandwich or something, but she had made a Philly Cheesesteak sandwich for me (my favorite), including going to the grocery store for fresh buns and peppers. She told me we need some us time tonight, that she really hated where we were right now and that we need to talk things through and reconnect. I'm afraid to get my hopes up because we've talked a few times this past week with lousy results and that's partly my fault because I have found that I have a tendency to yell and get very angry about this situation (which is very out of character for me). She did say she loved me more than life itself and wants to fix things and that no friendship should ever come between married people.

So now I have to get myself in a frame of mind that, no matter how the discussion goes, I will not LB (see, I'm learning the lingo). I will be reasonable and loving and understanding, but at the same time strong and firm in what needs to happen to protect our marriage and family. Somehow, though, I have to get the what-if's out of my head for now. I keep think What if it is physical? You folks talk about Plan A and Plan B but I think I'd be somewhere between Plan Throw The Lying Piece of Trash to the Curb and Plan Plead and Beg My Darling Wife to Stay With Me. I have to stop thinking those things and deal with one step at a time.

I am going to step up my snooping though because I owe my marriage that kind of diligence.

I'm also going to try to get in touch with his W. I know his name and where he works but he has a very common name so I don't know how to find his W short of following him home which would be tough because he's a fireman so he works on a 3 days on , 3 days off type of thing.

You�re doing well and are keeping your head. I commend you for that.

I would be very quiet this evening and listen a lot. Your position is simple: �WW, you have a friendship I find very uncomfortable. Things have been said which cross the line. If you really value how I feel, then you need to do what you wish with that info.�

I would also flat out ask if things have gotten physical. Expect a lie.

Waywards have ways to help lower the suspicion of their betrayed spouses. I think it�s more common with men than women, but a wayward might go on a big romantic trip with their betrayed spouse to lower their suspicions and let them carry on without as much pressure. I know because my dad did it to my mom and my ex would go on �dates� with me to give me hope of reconciliation.

Trust none of what you hear and half of what you see. You�re wise to keep snooping. DO NOT reveal that you are looking at the computer logs. I made a big mistake when I did so.

I hope you�ve caught things when they were at a stage where she was playing with fire and nothing more, but I�m very worried about the fact that she has supposedly met him at his home. Flirting online followed by a meeting = big red flag.

If her idea of talking is justification and rationalization about why this friendship is ok, then find a way to change the subject or walk away or simply express your displeasure quietly without saying anything.

If she asks if it�s ok for her to have this friendship after rationalizing, you can simply say, �he needs to talk to his wife about his problems or hire a professional. I don�t like him doing so with you.�

You can also calmly bring up the things that have been said that are out of line and just flat out express how men are. We don�t innocently flirt. Na�ve women interpret flirting with friendliness, but that is not the case. Their conversations have already crossed the line.

Bottom line: Don�t waste your night on rationalization on her part. Walk away if needed, but don�t yell.

You�re much more attractive and mysterious when you don�t react. Anger only arms her justifications for her continuing need to talk to him. Be James Bond�. Cool as a cucumber.

she could be going into survival mode- as in, placate BH, get him to feel like there's nothing going on, and then I can still go about doing what I feel like with this A- whether EA or PA, still an A....

And then go further underground with everything...

My thoughts also. Many a WW placates the BH so he lets his guard go down so the WW can then pick up where she left of with the OM.

Keylogger, var, gps, keep gathering inteligence for continued contact.

My thoughts too.

No WW changes on a dime like this.

Snoop snoop snoop

I couldn't post last night and won't be able to from home because my computer is in the living room and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to keep my visits here from her but last night was a really rough night. I could really have used the support from here but I can't chance posting from home.

helpthelostdads, you were right - a night of rationalization. It started out well enough with us talking and cuddling, remembering all our great times and just being there, two people in love. I let her bring up the subject of the OM and her first words were to reiterate what she said yesterday, that a friendship should not interfere with a marriage. At that point, my heart was singing, but then it came crashing down as she went on to say that I needed to understand that she married me and loves me, but this is a friend who needs help and she can't turn her back on him. I kept my cool and let her talk even though my insides were falling apart as she justified it in so many ways. He is a fireman and told her there are a number of new guys at his station who are going to be buying houses and he can get her a bunch of business (she is a realtor).

I listened and told her that what she was doing was hurting me immensely, regardless of whether it was right or wrong. I gave her the example of strip clubs. She is vehemently opposed to any man, especially a married man, visiting those places. I have never been inside one, but I asked her to think about how she'd feel if I started going to them with buddies. That it might be innocent fun with the guys but just the fact that me going would hurt her would be enough for me to not go, simply because protecting her from hurt is my number one priority. She replied that would be an entirely different situation.

Then she went on about what I call her "broken wing syndrome". She is the most caring and sympathetic person I have ever met. Once a cat was hit on the road and I stopped and she jumped out and held and comforted that cat for 1/2 hour as it died. That's just who she is and she told me how horrible this guy had it and how she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she just abandoned him in his time of need. Then she pulled out an email she printed. It was an email from him to his wife that he showed her on his computer the day she was at his house and it paints a truly rotten picture. Supposedly, he is living in the basement, his W controls everything about him to the point of giving him an allowance, etc. Blah, blah, blah.

At that point I had an idea and I told her that after reading the email, I couldn't believe what the poor guy was going through and she was probably right and he needed all the friends he could get so why don't we have him over, We could help him together and I could give him some advice from a man's point of view. Heck we could have he AND his wife over. We could help them get through their rough spot and they would see what a loving marriage was really like. The look on her face when I said that screamed just one thing - BUSTED! She stammered about how he had lots of males friends, just needed female perspective and on and on.

The conversation went downhill from there to the point where I asked her if they slept together. The only answer I got was a slap in the face and her storming off to bed. Neither of us have ever even lifted a hand to the other. I have been hit before and I've broken many bones in my life, but I have never felt the kind of pain that slap caused. I left the house, jumped on my bike and hit the road. I had the bike over 100 mph before I got a grip and stopped. I am the most safety conscious rider in the world and here I was riding like a madman with no gear on. I can't do that anymore. My kids need me too much no matter what happens.

I don't know where to go from here. I do know that I have to find out exactly where things stand with her and the POSOM so GPS, VAR and anything else anyone can suggest for a start. I need a plan and I have to find the strength to make it and follow it. I just have such a hard time thinking about what-if's. I know I need solid information before I go forward but my mind is running in overdrive and it's hard to think clearly

If you still have it, take the email she gave you and send it to OM's wife.

Expose to OM's wife. That will be the beginning of the end of this.

Her slap was way out of line.

You need to keep your cool now more than ever. You did something I was going to suggest to you as far as suggesting you both speak with him.

This is an emotional affair. She is justifying it to you. The analogy of a strip club isn�t one I would use. The fact that you were both cheated on is a better example.

Get a VAR and put it in her car. That will reveal much.

Can you get into her emails? Could you afford a PI?

Know this: She�s wrong. You�re right.

I know this sucks massively. Keep you cool as much as possible. Think James Bond when the blood pressure starts rising. The mental image will help.

I say this to you as a man who completely lost his self control when going through this. I regret not keeping my cool the most. Try to find a way to disconnect your emotions from your actions. Try to find a way to kill the despair you fell. Pretend she�s a stranger, because right now she is.

tlcanuck, the best way to handle it is to get your evidence and call up his wife. The affair would likely end that day. Dont delay in this. Exposure is your most powerful weapon.

The longer you put this off, the more entrenched the affair and the harder it will be to break it up.


You do understand that was bad advice, right? The closer you are, the healthier your marriage.

Drive to his home and tell her in person.

Honesty is for recovery, not for when your marriage is under assault.

This may be the stupidest comment I ever made but a realization just hit me.

MY WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR!

It doesn't matter what the affair involves, my darling wife, the love of my life has betrayed me and our family. The one person who I could always depend on, the one I could always trust to have my back has torn my heart to shreds.

THIS SUCKS!

We know, friend. BUT, you can save your marriage if you will listen to the advice you are getting here. I am getting concerned for you because the longer you wait, the more entrenched the affair becomes. The sooner you expose this affair, the sooner your marriage can be recovered.

You still need solid evidence to confront her with.

Get the VAR into her car. They're cheap and available at any Radio Shack.

Get into her emails, print them out.

Expose this stuff to OM's wife ASAP. This is the one key component to ending this.

Once you have solid, undeniable evidence, then expose to everyone, including the kids.

Keep your head about you. Remember that you're not dealing with your wife, but an alien that is controlling your wife's body.

Her over the top reaction to the question about sleeping with him says a lot.

I'm a newly married man.

A woman I once went out with 18 years ago contacted me on FB a few months ago. She was fishing for attention and possibly more. It was subtle on her part, disguised as some sort of attempt to reach out as a friend to someone she once thought fondly of.

I shared the contact with my fianc�. She was uneasy with my communications with this woman. I continued it momentarily simply because I was curious and couldn�t remember who she was.

But my the contact really bothered my fianc�, despite the fact that I kept it very transparent and let her read the emails. She broke down and cried.

That was enough for me. I didn�t need the friendship and my relationship with my fianc� was much more important to me than the contact of some woman I couldn�t remember from 18 years ago.

I stopped it right then and there and told this other woman that it bothered me that she wouldn�t answer questions about whether or not she was married and I flat out told her that her contact with me was inappropriate. I told her that I was getting married soon, didn�t need female friends, and that she needed to find resources to fix her own marriage.

The point is that I ended it and haven�t thought twice about it. My relationship with my wife is too important to risk it over any such �friendships�.

These aren�t friendships. This OM is fishing for an affair and for attention that he�s not getting from his wife.

I�m willing to bet a month�s salary that this man�s wife knows little to nothing about what he�s doing and how unhappy he is and the fact that they are supposedly having problems.

Who knows what your WW is saying to OM. Don�t be surprised that it isn�t flattering.

Logic is wasted on an active WS.

Relationship talk just makes matters worse - the WS will use that against the BS and try to paint the BS as unreasonable, controlling, etc. for suggesting that the WS's actions were damaging the relationship.

Good play on the "inviting the guy" over BTW.

You need to expose your WW's A before it gets any worse. If you believe you need more evidence, you need to start getting that immediately (a VAR would be a good start).

How old are your kids? They should also be informed in an age-appropriate manner.

How old are your kids?

Whatever you do, DO NOT move out of your house!!! Many men make that mistake and lose custudy of their kids b/c the courts look at it as abandonment.

If she wants out, SHE moves out. And do NOT move out of your bedroom. If she doesn't want to sleep w/ you, SHE moves out.

Good job suggesting she invite him over.

Tell OMW.

Did you pick up any VAR?

Put one under the seat of her car.

Then slap a GPS on it. Don't tell her what you've found until you expose.

You call her parents, friends...OM's wife, his parents. Anyone you think might put pressure on them to end this affair.

Yes, your W is having an A. The fact that she slapped you when you asked her whether she had slept with OM is a huge red flag. Waywards get very angry when their dirty little secret is exposed. You have to expose this A to the OM's W. The OM's W is probably mad at him because he is cheating and she knows it. Just imagine, he brought another woman into her house without her being there. That is too disrespectful. I know it's hard for you to believe that your W is capable of lying and cheating but those of us who thought our spouses were so honest and faithful and found out they were having an A will tell you that your W behavior is inappropriate and she is committing adultery not counseling a friend. Why does she feel the need to counsel a MM? If she has nothing to hide why would she act weird about you and her doing the "counseling". Where theres smoke theres fire.

I have to agree with cobol_girl. Your wife has no business in another married man's house without his wife being there. That is disrespectful to you and to the OMW. She is way out of line here and definitely in an affair.Man-up and stand up or she will put you down.

OK, I took an hour break from work and had the meltdown. Emotions are purged and now it's time to get cool and get active. I really don't know if I will continue in this marriage based on what I find out, but I need to KNOW. I was offered the job I currently hold because I maintain critical systems and I am very cool and composed under immense pressure. Time to draw on those qualities now. Screw the morals, it's time to go to war.

Luckily things are slow at work and all systems are running smoothly, so I have some free time. So now, first things first, I need to get facts. I'm going to let the storm from last night blow over and not speak of the A unless she brings it up, to which I will let her know I'm not happy about it but know there is nothing I can do about it (Yeah, right).

First, snooping. GPS goes in the car today. I have to find a VAR and get that installed as well. The keylogger is on her computer and I will leave it there but I'm not hopeful of getting much there. When she goes out in the evening for work (showing a house, etc.) I think I will take a nice relaxing bike ride. There's a guy I ride with who I'm sure will loan me his car so I will go to his place, grab his car and swing by wherever she says she is showing houses.

Second, I need to find his address somehow, both to check on whether my W is there and to get in contact with his wife. She and I need to get together and start comparing notes, warning each other when our spouses go out, etc. Hopefully, she will not want to go ballistic and confront right away but, instead, gather all the information we need first and then drop the bomb. I'm going to point her here as well. Just have to find her first. Maybe the GPS will give me addresses I can compare to the phone book if she happens to go to his house again.

Third, I need allies. I don't have a lot to choose from. Both my parents passed away in the last two years. I have two sisters but one of them is pretty explosive and I don't want her acting differently towards my W just yet. My W has one sister who has a great husband (but darling, he's a control freak and that's why dear sis had the affair year's ago). Her Mom had a string of affairs in the past at the time her Dad was an alcoholic so she's out. He's been sober for over 5 years and he and I are very close. His other son in law is close to his own Dad but W's father and I are very close. I am sort of the son he never had and he stepped up big time when my Dad died so he's definitely one. I don't want to involve the kids just yet, at least not until I have solid information and I need to think about how to handle that part of it.

Finally, when I get the solid data I need, they are not going to know what hit them. I will go see him in my most intimidating form and politely give him his options and I will let her know what has to happen (assuming I know myself at that point).

Now, questions:

I know from reading here that exposure has to be all at once and I need to expose exactly what is going on so do I involve other people like her Dad now or wait until I have solid information? His W is a given but what about others?

I know I have to avoid R talk, but what if she brings up the A? Do I continue to let her know how I feel or just brush it off as if I've gotten over it? I plan to act as if it's no big deal but what if she presses the issue?

I have absolutely no desire to be intimate with her now so what do I do when she approaches me for SF as she usually does if it's been more than a few days? I have never rejected her advances in that way.

Our kids are almost 11 (next week), 16 and 19. Even though she had the youngest and oldest before we got together, they are all my kids. We met when she was pregnant with her second (her XH ran off with the babysitter the day he found out she was pregnant) and we got married before the youngest was a year old so, to him, I am Dad and I always have been. The 19 year old never ever had a close relationship with his biological father even before he walked out and has had no contact with him since and he and I are very close, best buddies, and he turns to me for everything. The gift he got for me this past father's day still brings tears to my eyes when I think about it. So, no matter who donated the sperm, they are all three my kids and will be forever. I legally adopted both boys years ago, but I'm not sure what my legal rights are. I will need to find out, but I will not abandon them no matter what.

I will not leave the house or the bedroom unless I decide to leave permanently in which case legal agreements will be done well beforehand. If she wants out, she will have to go.

NOOOOOO. Don't invite OMW here.

You have no idea if she can be trusted to keep MB a secret from her WH. This is YOUR place. Keep it secret from his wife for now too. Also, you can't count on her to keep quiet about you talking to her. So, I wouldn't talk to her until you are ready to tell everyone.

Exposure is most effective when it is done all at once.



Act upbeat, and casual around her. But, if she brings it up, absolutely tell her how much her continued contact w/ him hurts you and your marriage.

You want to be Mr. cool around her until you get the intel. Even if she is careful, she will slip up. They always do.

Also, I know you are saying you will bail on the marriage if you find out she is cheating on you, but you still need to break up the affair, b/c if you D her, you don't want OM around your kids.

Understood. Thanks.

But you can share MB principles w/ her.

When you get your proof first come to let the vets guide you through the next steps

It may just be me and my cloudy mind... but I don't understand this. She had the youngest AND oldest before you got together? You met when she was pregnant with her second?

(Shaking head) I guess I just don't understand this. Sorry, can you clarify?

LOL Yeah.

I think what he meant to say was that her first two children were from her first M.

The youngest one is from their M.

Blended family. The oldest and youngest are hers, the middle one is his.

TL you are getting great advice. The VAR will be your ace in the hole. I would suggest getting a couple of them, one for her car and one for you to carry around on your person. WW's can be quick to play the DV card, and if you have audio of her starting and escalating an altercation it can keep you out of jail. Look up PSUBiker's story.

If she swings at you again, call the police and have her removed from the home. Abuse is not to be tolerated.

I think he means she had HER youngest and oldest before they got together. Oldest was already alive, HER youngest (now the middle child) on the way.

THEIR 11 year old is the youngest one, now.

tl, I see several items that are big red flags about your wife. First her mother is a serial adulterer, and her sister has committed adultery. From the timeline of your story it is likely that you met and began your relationship before her first marriage was 'officially' over i.e. before the divorce was finalized. Her husband may have run off, but from the way you describe it she was likely still married?

This indicates that she has a very poor respect for marriage. That it is something you do when you feel like it and for as long as it feels good. When it stops feeling good she gives herself permission to go find someone else to feel good with.

You're early in dealing with this, Exposure and Plan A are your way to go, but realize that this is an element of her character that MUST be addressed if you recover this marriage. She has the makings of a serial adulteress.

If this is the case, then you need to examine yourself as well. Something about your belief system made it ok for you to go after a married woman (regardless of the circumstances she found herself in). I question your respect for marriage as well. In order to recover you will have to also examine your beliefs and respect for marriage, because there are flaws in it that will leave you exposed for an affair in the future as well (especially now as you've been cheated on, as having a cheating spouse makes you more susceptible to an affair of your own.)

Ohhhh, OK that makes sense. Thanks.

Nope.

My son was 4 when my XW walked out (he's now 16). My current W had an 8 year old son and was pregnant on her second son. When she told her then H, within a few days he walked out and took up with their former babysitter leaving her alone. Later in her pregnancy, she was at the hospital while I was visiting my Dad who had had an operation. We ended up in the cafeteria at the same time and she realized she had left her wallet out of her purse when she was about to pay for her tea, so I bought it for her and we got to talking a bit. She insisted on getting my phone number so she could repay me for the tea (which she later admitted was just a way to get my number) and we started talking on the phone and went to a movie not long after, during which she went into labor. I ended up taking her to the hospital and things sort of snowballed from there until we were married a little less than a year later.

That story used to make me smile and laugh and remember so fondly............

So, to clarify. The now almost 11 year old and the 19 year old are "hers". The 16 year old is "mine". We did not "create" any children together but all three are "our kids" and we both do not like it when people refer to them as "mine" or "hers"

Okay, gotcha!! Thanks y'all!

Ok, more to clarify. We both have always had the utmost respect for marriage (at least until now). Of all the people her sister turned to for help during her A, my wife was the lead "2X4 swinger" and she has never fully forgiven her mother for her transgressions. She was always so very vehement about loyalty and faithfulness in marriage. One of the reasons I don't get this at all.

When we met I was newly divorced, but separated for well over a year. She was separated and in the process of divorce. We became friends and friends only at first. I was there for her through the end of her pregnancy and when she brought the baby home, as a friend only. Her XH did not contact her in any way during or after her pregnancy and she needed support but it was not in a romantic way. I guess it came down to her needing someone to lean on and me needing someone to need me.

At first, I wanted no romantic involvement because a) she was still married regardless of the situation and b) pregnant women and women who have recently given birth have scary hormone things happening. We became the best of friends though and her D became final and then a couple months later I gave her a drive to look at a new apartment when she asked me to stop the car and turned to me and said "I love you". At that moment I realized I had fell in love too.

Our story was a real life love story. Now it's turned into a tragedy.

Tic --

So sorry you're here. This place is the BEST tho, for what you are going through.

I really think it won't take long for you to get your proof. So hold off on exposing for a day or two. Just be Mr. Cool until then.

Sorry; but that slap was just a diversion to avoid answering the question. You never did get an answer, did you?

Next -- take off the rose-colored-glasses. Hate to tell you, but every single person comes her saying their marriage was a fairy tale. Jump off the pedestal and start taking a good hard look at your marraige. There are some vulnerabilities that you need to address. Where did OM find his opening? What would you determine her top Emotional Needs to be, and where might you have been negligent? Get that gap closed up.

Get into Plan A mode, while still doing your investigating.

First thing:

I have to give you massive kudos and applause. You�re not reacting like most BH�s (including myself) react. Most are afraid. Most fear snooping and confronting.

You�re being smart and doing things the right way.

I hold a small kernel of hope that this has not progressed beyond flirting with OM online. It�s a sliver of hope and I honestly want that to be the case.

BUT history and stories like yours say otherwise.

My suggestion to you if she brings up OM again: simply say, �WW, you know how I feel about the situation. I don�t wish to discuss it any further.�

Don�t let her bait you into an argument about him. By not arguing with her, you�re disarming any arguments she may try to make about you being a control freak.

I will have to warn you that the search for the truth does become an obsession. I looked through EVERYTHING. I looked inside the drawers in our bedroom, the pockets in her clothes, her purse, her cell, etc.

Do you have access to the cell phone records? That is a big clue for you. That can help you with numbers.

If you do happen to catch her in a lie about her whereabouts, keep it to yourself. Trust me when I tell you that revealing that you�re spying will make her harder to spy on.

Have you looked up online if she has a facebook page? Does he? These could be good sources of info.

When you have your solid, undeniable evidence, then you must confront her with it. There are techniques in interrogation which will be helpful to use.

You start by asking a question you already know the answer to and can disput any lie of hers. For example, �Have you talked to OM on the phone recently?�

She might lie and deny. If she says she doesn�t have his number, you spout the number to her, having gotten it from the phone records. If she denies talking to him recently, you can mention the time and length of the last call to him.

If you have proof of her being at his home, you ask, �When was the last time you were in his home?�

She will likely lie again. At that point, you reveal that you know she was there at an exact time based on a picture of her car there or of a GPS showing as much.

What this does is it makes you appear like you know a lot more than she thinks you do and that there is no point in hiding anything anymore. This is when a suspect starts to spew a heck of a lot more info than what you know. They figure that you know everything, so they simply start confessing to what they think you already know.

Has she called you to apologize for the slap?

The key thing for you right now is to hold everything quiet and act like all is well while you gather your evidence. You may even lower her guard by letting her think you�re not worried about things.

Remember, this isn�t your wife. She�s an alien in your wife�s body. She�s not the woman you married and is protecting an addiction and secret.

But kudos to you. You are showing you�re a man with a pair and that is fantastic. I wish I had had your strength. Like you, I was trained to be cool under pressure, but I was a ball of mush when all this was thrown on my plate. I had no ball$. You do and I commend you for it.

Read other�s threads to show the differences between BH�s who act and those that waffle.

I have a feeling your WW is one which is a good candidate for the MB principles to work on. Some women are hopelessly lost in the affair and no Plan A or B ever shakes them out in time. Your WW sounds like she was a good woman who let her guard down and was attracted to the wounded bird.

The guy can pay for a counselor if he needs one. Your WW doesn�t need to fill that role.

Thanks for the kind words, helpthelostdads, but I have reacted and continue to in much the same way many here have. I just refuse to break down in front of her. Maybe the one time when my pride serves me well. Calm, cool and reasonable, that will be me when around her. If I lose it as I have and no doubt will again, I will do it alone.

This site is golden and the proof of it's effectiveness lies in the stories I have read so I will continue to read and learn all I can on here and follow the advice of others like you who have learned the painful lessons.

I feel so bad for all the good people on here and for the reasons you came here, but I am so very grateful for you being here now. Sorry for that.........

Wish I had had similar pride.

We're here for you and it is great to get the many different opinions.

Have you snooped in other ways? Have you looked through her nighstand, car, pockets, drawers?

What about phone records? Browser history on the computer?

Can you guess her passwords for her email?

I haven't snooped to that extent but I am about to transform into Sam Slade, PI. Any and all snooping tips are welcome and appreciated.

I think I am going to see the OM tonight. I know the fire station he works at (if my W was honest about that part) and I know firemen in this area work rotations so it's a shot in the dark as to whether he will be there but still. The blowup from last night is fresh so maybe today is the best day to do it.

As I said before, I have a fairly imposing frame and can be very intimidating (just ask my kids) so I'm thinking I'll pull on a t-shirt I have that is a size too small, jeans, biker boots, leather jacket and sunglasses. My most imposing look.

I will ask if he is there and when he comes out I will introduce myself:

"Hello, do you recognize me?"

And then say to him with my voice dripping with politeness:

"I am WW husband. You have been carrying on with something inappropriate with my wife. That NEEDS to stop. You see, I'd really like to be reasonable and settle this without further incident and it would be unfortunate if this were to continue and cause the kind of PAIN which can result from such actions. Do you fully understand what I am saying?"

Thoughts?

When you go to confront OM, can you take a friend, brother, someone with you? This will add to the intimidation factor, help to keep you and control and also be a witness for you incase OM tries to say you threatened him etc.

Some guys support that approach. I would take that approach only if you uncover undeniable proof of an affair.

I also would wait to have more evidence since WW could use such an incident to say, "I have a crazy and jealous husband. Look at what he is doing. He thinks something is going on that isn't."

If, however, you have solid proof, then by all means.

Your gut will want you to do this. Your arms will literally burn to do something (it's your blood pressure being crazy high).

So it's something you can and perhaps should do AFTER you have solid and undeniable evidence.

Contacting his W should be your first priority.

You're right and it's not just my arms burning. I feel like my insides are shaking and burning with the need to do something, anything. Just something to take action. I will not be stupid though so if I do decide to go see him I will ensure I have a witness present.

That�s a feeling you�re going to carry with you for some time. I had it and it keeps you up at night.

I want to make sure I understand a few things:

Has she admitted to being alone with him?
Have you uncovered any more damning evidence of exchanges between them?
What do the phone records tell you?
Can you use a service like Inellius to get his home number and his wife�s name?

She has admitted to only that first(?) time she went to visit him. Said they just had a catch up chat (as if they needed it since they'd been emailling and chatting on the computer for weeks).

She freely admits that she talks to him but it's totally innocent.

She has gotten very careful with her phone since our phones are a family plan and I have full access to her call logs through the cell company. However, she is a realtor and that means many many strange numbers.

I live in Canada so services like Inellius are not available and all I have is a name and there are over 20 names in our phone book that could fit. I know from an old chat history though what his wife drives so I think I just need to swing by each of the addresses in the book and look for the vehicle. Time for a bike ride I think.

Do you think she uses the home phone at all to talk to OM? They sell devices at Radio Shack to convert the phone signal into a mic signal that you can attach to a voice activated cassette player. You can even attach it into a computer and use programs that do voice activated recording.

Do you have regular phone service or internet VOIP phone? If it's VOIP, many providers will have logs of every phone call.

Use your phone bill and try to isolate HIS phone number.
Look for large volumes of calls to the same number -- or LENGTHY calls to a certain number.

Then call it from another source to verify it is him.

Does she have a smartphone? Try Flexispy. You can download it to her phone. Does her phone have a sim card? Get a sim card reader.

I've heard it suggested to ask OM what his intentions are with your wife and then when he stammers.... noth... nothi... nothing...., that's when you inform him that if he doesn't back off that hell is coming. You guarantee it.

This should not be done BEFORE you tell his wife, tlc. If you do this first, then he will get to his wife and spin you as "some jealous wackjob that things everyone is chasing his wife." Then when you do get to her you will have been discredited and she won't listen to any thing you say.

Your best bet is to get the proof [hire a PI] and then expose, starting with the OW. Just confronting the OM without getting evidence or exposing the affair will get you very little because they may go further underground.

Keep in mind people tend to believe the first persons version of the facts.

Talk to OMW first before he's had a chance to preempt you with the whole "He's just insecure" speech.

If you can tell OMW before OM knows, it gives OMW a chance to do some snooping of her own if she can handle it.

Recon, Outflank and press the advantage.

Update - A little good and and a lot of bad

First the good. I found the OM's house and talked to his wife. I knew what kind of car she drove so I just copied the list of addresses and started checking from the closest to the place he works. On the third house, I hit paydirt and found the same type of car the POS told my W his wife drove. I stopped and parked the bike and had a smoke while I tried to decide what to do and what to say. Then a woman came out of the house and sat on the front step. I walked over and introduced myself and that's when the bad started. Her first response - "You're married to the woman sleeping with my husband." I felt like I had taken a sledgehammer to the gut.

She actually thought it was my W's sister because it was she who they ran into at the New Years party and apparently they had been pretty close on the dance floor, but her suspicions have escalated since then from his behaviour. She told me he had had an affair 5 years ago and they worked through it, just recently putting it behind them. As we talked and compared notes, a lot of things became clearer. I told her about how I had seen their emails and chats grow more and more intimate and she told me she had caught him a couple of times chatting with someone but he would close the chat window when she came in the room but not before she saw little hearts and such on the screen.

She told me he has become more and more secretive lately and has been getting his sister to watch their kids on many of his days off (he does work 2-3 days on, 3-4 days off) with little or no explanation as to where he goes or what he does. If she questions him, she gets "I thought we got past this and you need to learn to trust me." Then she told me about the email she found on the computer. The idiot had sent the email to his wife and then got into her email and deleted it but forgot to delete it from his sent items. Their computer is wide open and she did some snooping when she started to get suspicious. He explained it by saying he wrote it to help a co-worker who is having trouble with his wife and sent it accidentally. Funny how it is addressed to his own wife.

When I told her of the day last week I caught my W lying about going to his house, she completely broke down and when she calmed down and told me why, something inside me died. When she got home from work that day, her POS husband had gotten to cleaning the house and while she told me that he does do that on occassion, he had stripped the bed in their basement guest room and was washing the sheets even though the bedroom had not been used in months. The images going through my mind at that moment nearly drove me insane.

We talked for quite some time and I told her that I had found a great resource for dealing with and ending affairs but I didn't tell her specifically about this site. She is ready and willing to work together to get solid proof but she still wants her M to this scumbag, which I don't understand. He is a master manipulator who likes to play games with people. The email and the presenting of their guestroom as "his bedroom" shows just how devious the POS can be. There is part of me that feels like my W has been the victim of this slimy piece of garbage, but I know that ultimately it was her decision to do whatever they have done. It is becoming clear that this A is physical and that cuts like nothing ever has. His W and I are going to keep in close contact and let each other know when they are out. I have the make and model of his vehicle and the plate number and I am going to pick up a GPS for his W to put in his truck. That, combined with the GPS I put in W's car late last night, will allow us to cross check their whereabouts. She has agreed to not say anything until we are both ready and have the info we need and then we'll expose this as a blitz.

When I got home I walked through the door and straight into the freaking twilight zone. Get this - I got accused of cheating! Apparently I am sneaking around (which I am) and she couldn't reach me on my cell (kind of hard to hear a cell phone on a motorcycle) and the best one of all. It would seem that, according to Dr. Phil, the first indication that your spouse is cheating is when they accuse you of it. Supposedly, that proves I'm having an affair. I almost laughed in her face. I really wanted to scream that I knew what she did and she should have at least helped her lover clean up their mess, but I managed to hold it together. Then she stormed off to bed. It was quite some time before I went to bed (since I had a GPS to install) but when I did, she wanted to have sex like nothing had happened. I refused and she rolled over and pouted. What the hell is wrong with this woman? More and more I am disgusted by the site of her and the thoughts going through my head.

I'm going to step up the snooping and I have an ally now so that should make it easier but I am becoming more and more resolved that once I have clear cut evidence, then it will be straight to Plan D.

As soon as you get your evidence! EXPOSE! Start your list now, get everyone's contacts, emails, fb, phone numbers, etc...get your expose letter ready!

I really am sorry you had to find out about that

You are being very smart about this though, so I have no doubt that you will be able to recover.

GOOD LUCK!

If there was a medal for restraint, you�d earn it with clusters.

I applaud your restraint, self discipline, and control of your emotions.

I know it isn�t easy and it is one of the hardest things you�ve ever done. I hope you have a chance at recovery, but having been in your shoes, I don�t think I would try to save things after being cheated on once.

I have a gut feeling that your WW will be the remorseful type once all is exposed. It will be up to you if you wish to forgive, but I understand the sentiment that you can�t do this another time after being betrayed in your first marriage. I would encourage you to seriously consider it for the sake of your son. My brother went through my parent�s divorce at his age and it really messed him up. He�s just now, in his 20�s, getting things together and my sister, in her 30�s, is still wrestling with it.

The kids on both ends would be dealing with yet another divorce.

I�m not saying it�s easy or that you�re not thinking of these things. I can certainly understand where you�re coming from.

I�m so sorry that the truth has come out this way. As I suspected, his BW is not the monster she�s been made out to be and was clueless about what was happening or had suspicions of her own.

Glad to know you have an ally. Expect the cat to come out of the bag, however, and that she may not be able to stay quiet. Be prepared for the confrontation that�s likely to come before you�re ready to confront with the evidence.

The best scenario is to catch them meeting up, hopefully before something physical happens, but catch them red handed nonetheless.

Again, I�m really sorry this has turned out this way.

tlc, are you ready to get to work now busting up this affair and saving your marriage? The OMW needs to follow this exact same plan. BRING HER HERE AND ASK HER TO FOLLOW THIS EXACT SAME PLAN. I suspect the OM will dump your wife once you do this.

Make up a list of all exposure targets and start exposing the affair TODAY. It is important that you do this in the same day so this has the effect of a tsunami. That makes it harder for the affairees to regroup and prevents them from pre-empting you and spinning the story. [with you starring as the head demon]

Start by calling her parents, your parents, close family members, friends. Tell them that you are trying to save your marriage and ask them for their advice. If they say "ok, I will keep this a secret. " Tell them nononononno!! Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret is the worst thing you can do.

You WANT these people to call her up and persuade her to end her affair.

Sit your kids down and tell them about the affair. Tell them you love their mother but that she is doing a very bad thing. Kids MUST be told the truth in these situations because giving them false explanations teaches them dishonesty and leaves them vulnerable to the lies of your wayward wife.

I would then turn to making the OM's life a living hell. You should cause as much conflict as possible in his life. Expose him everywhere.

Find his facebook account and expose him there by sending letters to his facebook friends. [we have a template] Call his parents and tell them about the affair. Then go meet him in person. OM are big pansy boys so you will scare the hell out of him. Any man that does a woman in his own wife's house is a special brand of pansy.

tlc, you don't need to go to divorce yet. You may not want to continue the marriage but you don't have to make that decision now. You have nothing to lose and everything to GAIN by going through the steps of saving your marriage I outline above.

"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery." Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders

tlcanuck, sorry that you now "know." It is often suggested that you don't make any major decisions for a few months. Right now, you just experienced another DDay and your emotions are raw. It's understandable, we have all been there. It SUCKS. It's like a punch in the gut. Your whole world has collapsed. Just take some time and devise a plan.

Now, you will have to do a superb Plan A. You need both the carrot and the stick. Start exposing this NOW. Get your list together for who you will expose to. Blow this affair out of the water. Since you are in contact with OMW, I would tell her about a book called Surviving an Affair. Tell her about this forum. Tell her that she should expose the affair to everyone on OM's side. You could expose him on his facebook page(if he has one). You can do this. BLOW THIS AFFAIR UP.

Here are some template letters you can use to send to the OM's facebook friends. I would also expose to the firehouse.

Facebook exposure letters

Dear friend of Joe Scumbag,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. Joe had an affair with my wife, Sally, from Aug until September. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have 2 small daughters and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BH

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.
I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.
Thank you, BW

I bet if you told your WW that you know she had sex w/ OM on day X because his BW told you she caught him cleaning up the stained bedsheets downstairs, she'd give it up. Go ahead and expose. You have enough information. This isn't a court of law. You don't need irrefutable evidence. I'd say your circumstantial evidence is plenty to convince any rational person. I'd also let your WW know that this is the 2nd time his BW has caught him cheating and he keeps running back home with his tail between his legs.

tlc,

I just wanted to step in for one second to add my support and encouragement. You are doing a great job, keep it up as long as you possibly can.

Your story is like twisting my guts to me, I don't know why yours in particular but it does. I have not had a situation like yours so I don't have any advice to give you except stay here and you will do fine. We will always be here and if you feel like you are going to lose it come here and dump it all out. There are some amazing stories here of people who have been able to do what you are doing so if you have not please read them.

Good luck, hang on for a horrible ride, we will be here and in the end everything will turn out well with her or without her. Whatever you decide, it is your call.

One of the major keys of exposure is to expose to those who lnfluence the OM, and the WW the most. Such as their families, their employers/co-workers, and their church leaders. These are people who they are trying the most to hide the affair from because they are the people who do not condone an affair.

Set a goal for your marriage and determine your end goal of your mariage. My goal was to try my best to recover the marriage to the best of my abilities, to improve myself, and to follow all the advice from others who have recovered their marriages.

I would suggest to get yourself some friend support. People who will listen to you, and try to support you on your descisions. I had a lot of advice from friends and coworkers to dump my FWW, but I knew what I wanted and ignored that advice, but it was nice for me to have someone to talk to on a daily basis.

Begin an excellent Plan A. Change yourself into the most amazing husband ever, and have no expectations of what your WW will do. My SIL's would often tell my FWW how lucky she was for having such a wonderful husband. It made me feel better, and made the FWW mad at the time, because deep down I think she knew it.

Gather evidence, like your GPS, and store it all in a place not accessable by your WW. Like at someone elses house, or on a password protected google docs.

Stay positive, and try not to let yourself get depressed. Vent here if you need to. Take care of yourself, eat well, exercise, (stop smoking?....) and take a time out for yourself every once is awhile to recharge your batteries. This fight is emotionally and physically draining.

Here on out it is an up hill battle. You will slip, maybe LB, but in time you will get pretty good at being in plan A, and fighting for your marriage.

Forget what I said earlier. Just tell her you KNOW she had sex w/ OM in his guest bedroom last week but don't give your source. Telling her that you know she did it in the guest bedroom might be enough for her to know she's been caught and she'll give it all up. I think that once you finally bust her (in her mind) she'll spill the beans and agree to NC. I think deep down she wants to get caught because she knows she can't stop. She's addicted but she can't stop herself.

Then tell her she's become her ex-husband. That one should cut like a knife. And if she slaps you in the face again, call the cops and remove her from the house. She needs to feel CONSEQUENCES for her actions.

Thanks guys. Just knowing that there are people who are listening and caring enough to offer advice means a great deal.

I'm not in a good place right now. I haven't slept properly in days, haven't eaten and I just had to apologize to a subordinate at work because I tore into her this morning over a very small error. Misdirected anger, but she accepted my apology and said she noticed that I wasn't myself this week. There's an understatement!

W texted me and said she wouldn't be home lunchtime if I came home because she has a couple of viewings but OM's shift rotation ended this morning so you can guess where my mind went.

Not sure what do do from here. I want more solid evidence before I expose but is that because I am afraid of the consequences? I don't usually second guess myself like this, but it's all I seem to be doing lately.

I keep thinking about the "end game" and what I want a year from now, but the truth is I don't know. My kids are definitely a concern but to properly care for them I have to take care of their father and family.

Do you have the gps on her vehicle?
Can you go follow her?

You might want to take a few days off of work right now.
You are not going to be able to concentrate on anything but the situation.

You really don't need further confirmation, unless you still think your wife has enough wiggle-room to convince you its not an affair. Did you get the VAR in her car?

These things are your top priority right now. Take a few days off of work if you can.

The evidence is still circumstantial.

Use GPS and recording device.

You may have to make a plan with OM's wife to catch them in the act. Otherwise, they will deny and deny and you have no solid proof.

W has an iPhone and there is a great feature called "Find my iPhone" that uses the GPS in the phone to locate it. I just checked her location and I'm headed there to check up on her. Taking a co-workers vehicle so I can be discrete.

How long can someone keep up this obsessive need to know where she is 24 hours a day?

Never even when you are in recovery, I let my husband know exactly what I am doing 24 hours a day! I even have a weekly plan sheet for him, so he knows when I am working not at home.

tlc, I agree that you should keep snooping, however, you have the evidence you need NOW to expose the affair. You do not have to be able to prove it in a court of law. Did you get copies of the OMW's evidence?

You have enough to expose NOW.

Agree with ML. You know she's cheating. She knows she's cheating. Anyone who has any amount of sense would know she's cheating. This isn't a court of law. You don't need a photo of him inside her as proof. They can deny all they want. As long as you take steps as if you had photos, it doesn't matter how much they deny. I've heard of WS still denying photos. You have all the evidence you need. You start exposing to all her family, friends, your kids, and all of OM's family and coworkers. You go meet up w/ OM yourself (with some buddies to keep anything from happening) and you tell him you KNOW he's been screwing your WW, and you won't allow anymore contact. You call your WW and tell her to come home now and you need to talk. Then you tell her you KNOW she's slept w/ OM, you will no longer tolerate any further contact, there will be new measures in place to assure there is no further contact, and if she has a problem with that, then she can move out and start the divorce process (you can always stop). It's time to man up and take control of this situation. You need to break her.

A spouse should know the whereabouts of his spouse at all times anyway. It is too much trust that leads to affairs, as you have learned the hard way.

I'm not saying there are a lot of parallels in the stories - but through reading Anne505's thread

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2340748&page=1

I saw where someone was advising her to be ready to expose even without concrete proof - as the more time that passes - the more her love bank is emptied living with lies, deceits, fears, etc, etc

And reading through her whole thread - it would appear to me (a casual observer) - that her love bank has indeed gone empty - even before exposing / finding 100% concrete proof.

Again - not saying there are a lot of parallels - tlc has shown that he is very clearly a man of action (not implying that Anne isn't - she clearly is too).

Anyway - just think Anne's story is a very interesting one - and imo shows that in some cases - searching, searching, searching can sap all feelings - and in some ways - shows (I believe) that in terms of exposure - there will ALWAYS be reasons to wait a little longer, wait a little longer, wait a little longer. I've never been through it - but it must be a painful, terrifying experience.

So if the 'experts' are saying it's time to expose - they probably know.

(hope none of this comes across as negative about/to anne or tlc as that was not my intention)

Brother,

It is time. Sit her down, tell her you know and there is no point in hiding it anymore. You know they met at x time on x date in OM�s basement.

Carrying this around is going to eat you up. Tell her you also met with OM�s W.

Expose at that point to everyone under the sun.

If you can stand it, and swallow the feelings, then wait for the absolute proof, but you do have enough to confront and expose.

I think more evidence needs to be sought after...here you said the OMW thought that her husband was having an affair with your wife's sister (unless I read this wrong)...

The OM, could be playing both, your wife and your wife's sister and actually had sex with your wife's sister.

I'd keep snooping, until you know for sure...

This is correct. You don't need a movie pictoral to know what happened. You and the OMW and the affairees KNOW what happened.

Just say this: I know from speaking to the OMW that you had sex with him in the basement bedroom when you went there on XX-XX. Don't even ASK her, TELL HER.

He already HAS her admission that she went to the OM's house on that date.

Agree 100%.

Also, be sure to mention what a lying POS OM is by telling her how he had washed those sheets and made that bed in the basement to look as though the poor fellow was made to sleep there. Also include the part about his fake email letter.

THEN tell her, he did the same thing five years ago when he fooled/used another women.

I complete agree with this approach.

I would do it soon because if OMW confronts him (honestly, that is like a ticking time bomb) then OM tells your WW, she may be prepared for you to confront her. I would try to reach her before this happens ~ you'd likely have a much better chance of her admitting it (which I do think she will do).

I just caught them in the act or close enough to it. I went to the location where he rphone was and her car was parked in the driveway. I parked down the street to watch and she came out of the house WITH THE OM. They held hands to her car and then they kissed and i was an intense one. Then she got in her car and he got in a strange vehicle (not his own) and drove away. I should have confronted them right then and there but I froze. not out of restraint or self-control but because I was paralyzed by more powerful emotions than I have ever felt. When they left I just sat there and cried like 5 year old child. So much for strong and cool.

I'm a basket case right now. To know is one thing, but to see my wife MY WIFE in the arms of another man, his hands on her is an image that will be ingrained in my mind forever.

She is a realtor and this os someone else's house. She is risking her career, she could lose her license for this. When did she get so stupid?

I hate this woman so deeply but I love her so dearly

I want to spit in her face and tell her she just threw away the best thing in her life but I want to hold her so tight and never let go

Where do I go from here

How do I sleep without her next to me

How do I enjoy life's ups without sharing it with her

How do I deal with life's downs without her to lean on

How are my boys going to deal with this?

An old joke says that you can't live with them and you can't live without them and I am now living that. I can't live with what she has done and what she has become but I can't live without her either. I guess the jokes on me.

I need to pull it together and I need to get away. I'm going to take some time off and get away from here, away from her. I need to get my head clear. I just don't know what to say to her tonight or even hwo to face her.

Time to start exposing this affair you got your proof!! TELL EVERYONE!!

GOOD LUCK

I'm so sorry.

But, now you must expose! That POS needs to feel some of the pain you feel.

Tell everyone...get his BW on board w/ this. if she doesn't want to call his friends and family, then YOU do it. Get the numbers from her.

And then expose to everyone on her side.

Honestly, I'd expose to her work as well. If you did reconcile with her, there is no way that you could trust her to have that kind of access to other homes, and you would have to go around following her from house to house to make sure she wasn't screwing anyone. And, she shouldn't be screwing people in houses she's showing either. She should get fired for that just for the disrespect she's showing to other people's homes. Go nuclear exposure today.

When you confront her, have your digital voice recorder in your pocket so you get her confession in case she denies it later or keep her from making up false abuse claims. When WSs are desperate they will say or do anything to keep their addiction going.

This is important. You have to change your mindset about your WW. You have to look at her like a crack addict and stop thinking things like, how could my WIFE do this? This is not your WIFE. She is a wayward. We could probably tell you more about what she is going to do and say than you could at this point.

Please try not to make any decisions about the M until you stop the A and you have your WIFE back, not this wayward. So bust up the affair, bust up the affair. Try to focus on that. One step at a time. Hang in there.

I totally agree w/ this.

How disgusting to think you could put your house up for sale and have people come use it to screw in!

Her boss should know what she is doing.

You don't need a clear head and you don't need to figure out what to say to your WW. You need to put all your eggs in one basket right now ----> exposure and ending this A.

I agree. Try busting up the affair FIRST, then decide how you want to move forward. If she is very remorseful after getting busted, then you may very well recover your marriage and be happier than before.

Exposure needs to be done today. Exposure to his wife, fire station, and parents, and exposure to your WW's parents, employer, friends, and your children (including step child). I would tell all of them before she even gets home.

You need to project STRENGTH, like YOU are the one in charge. Don't show her any fear or she will use it against you.

Put all the fear and pain you feel into blasting their A to pieces.

Expose!!!

Let WW and OM be the ones to be caught off guard!

When your WW get's angry just tell her she shouldn't expect that you'd keep her dirty secrets for her.

You are getting the best advice here. I hope you are exposing the affair right now. No more waiting, no more wondering. You know what is happening and it is time to tell everyone what is happening.

Don't worry about what will happen a year from now. Today, your wife is just as the other poster described her, an addict. Break the addiction. If possible, take some emergency time off from work - a couple of days. It is way too hard to try to do this and function at work at the same time.

If you haven't done so already, give OMW a call and let her know what you saw today. Time for both of you to expose the affair far and wide.

I am sorry this is happening. Many, many of us here have been through this experience and for most it is the worst thing that has ever happened in our lives.

AM

NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO RUN AND SOOTHE YOUR HURT FEELINGS!! NOW IS THE TIME TO GO NUCLEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah I've got proof, I guess I just needed to be beaten over the head with it.

I need to get away. I just arranged to have tomorrow, Monday and Tuesday off (and longer if needed). Luckily I work for some of the greatest people around.

Tonight is Thursday so W has her weekly card game with the girls. While she is gone I am going to pack a few essentials, grab my bike and head out. I will be safe but I need just me and the open road to sort out my thoughts and feelings.

I will contact the POS's W and ask her to keep a lid on things until I get back and, if she doesn't, so be it. I need time alone now more than I need to ensure things are handled properly.

I'll tell the kids that I am taking a fun road trip for a few days and my son is going to his mother's tonight for the weekend anyway so that's at least one out of the way. I know they'll be OK.

If me being away drives W further into POS's arms, then so be it.

When she gets home tonight she will find me gone and she will find a letter which will say:

---------------------------------------
W

This has gotten out of control. I don't know how we went from being the happiest couple in the world just a few short weeks ago to where we are now but something has to change.

I need a few days away to think and sort out my feelings. I will be safe and I will have my phone for emergencies but I ask that you do not contact me. We both need to reflect on where we are and where we are going. To do that I need to be left alone for a few days. We can talk when I return.

Please respect my wish to have no contact.

H

---------------------------------------

I need to figure out what I want. I said all along that if the A was physical, then I'd be out of this marriage but, if I am being totally honest, I just don't know. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get that image out of my mind or look at her without it haunting me.

The one thing I will really miss is you guys. This place has become my therapy and my safe place and I don't know how I would have gotten through the past week without it. I will try to check in here if I find access to a computer while on the road and I will check in as soon as I get back.

I'll check in before I leave in case anyone has any input on the letter.

Absolutely!!

You don't have time for that.

If you go somewhere to lick your wounds your WW will know you know. And she will do her best to protect her sitch.

And then exposure will not be as effective!

You don't have time to wait on this.

First of all:

Are you the kind of guy that wants to save your marriage no matter what?

Or are you one of those that rather walk away from this mess?

Obviously right now you cannot make a decision because you are in shock.

In the meantime confront your wife with the info.

Expose to kids and family as well as OM's wife and family.

See how WW reacts. Some become remorseful and stop the affair right away to work on the marriage. There some like that in this forum.

OTOH, she may elect to continue the affair despite your discovery. In this instance saving the marriage becomes much harder and not all BHs have stamina for that.

Now is NOT the time to go anywhere. Being away from home will not help you think what you need to do.

Your children need you at home. Right now, you are the only semi-sane one to be there for them.

Call her up, tell her to meet you at home, that you have something important talk about and tell her you KNOW what she is doing.

By the way, on my D-day, I also wanted to get far, far away. I looked up ski trips to Patagonia, South America. I didn't go anywhere because my children needed me to be there for them and later they needed me to work on the marriage to their father.

AM

Canuck,

Let me just say from my semi-professional opinion after years of being on this board, I think this affair will be over ASAP once you expose. Your WW has not said she wants a divorce. Most of the WW's looking to leave give the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" talk and start saying the marriage isn't working. Your WW has stated that she WANTS to stay marriage. She is just addicted to the OM. Once the consequences come to bear from exposure, that will kill the affair, and after a short period of time, she will be remorseful. This reminds me a lot of the story of Runnerboy. Maybe you can check out his story.

Runnerboy

I'd be willing to bet you that if you acted the same was as Runnerboy after he found out about his WW's affair, she would react the same way. You need to be strong, firm, and unafraid like Runnerboy. Your WW will end the affair, stay depressed for a couple of months, and then will start showing true remorse. But you need to get strong and kill this affair first. Use Runnerboy as your model.

man, after witnessing what you did with your wife & OM, if the shoe was on the other foot...I'd be in jail right now, pleading temporarily insanity...seriously...

Your letter:


This is the wrong move. You can go away later after you confront her. Furthermore, this letter reminds me of another poster name YEG. It simply sounds too "touchy feely".

tlc, please don't leave the letter and please don't leave. I know you are upset and confused now. But timing is critical to your situation and if you don't act now, you will lose a strategic advantage in saving your marriage.

YOU ARE MAKING SERIOUS STRATEGIC MISTAKES WITH YOUR PROPOSED PLAN.

Many of us on this thread have the objective outlook you need along with a successful history of saving our own marriages. We can calmly and strategically lead you through this if you will put some faith in us.

But please understand that this note and leaving will give the affairees a look at your hand and will eliminate your strategic advantage.

Your wife will immediately know when she sees your letter that you KNOW. With you gone, that will give her time to get her story right with the OM and cover their tracks.

You are tipping your hand to the enemy, the affair.

Please. I implore you to calm yourself down and let us help you in this critical time. We are objective and we know how to manage this in a way that will protect your marriage while killing the affair.

No offense, but that is the worst (edit) idea I've ever heard on MB. *edit* Running away from your problems? GO FREAKING NUCLEAR! Tell your WW's girlfriends at her card game what she has been up to in the houses she's been showing. Tell her employer what she is doing to client's homes. Tell your (step)children what is going on. Tell her family what she has been doing. Go to OM's house, and tell his WW what you know in front of him and tell him to stay the he11 away from your wife. Figure out how to block his phone, email, facebook, everything on your WW's phone and computer. CONFRONT THIS THING HEAD ON!

Now is the time to stand and fight, not duck and run. Otherwise you are just pissing away your chance at getting this marriage back on track. Don't run away. Stay and fight.

Do not leave your home. Do NOT leave your home. DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME!

Your children need you. NOW is not the time to curl up into a little ball and feel sorry for yourself. Now is the time to act. Expose NOW!

If you leave, you are setting up a precedent that ends with you kicked out of your home and your wife free to move OM in with your kids and family.

DON'T LEAVE YOUR HOME!!!

DO NOT LEAVE!

I know this is hard...but you are making the wrong move to leave now...

You need to EXPOSE this A to EVERYONE even her work place!

Please...if you want to save your marriage then do not leave for 3 days, you need to take that time to EXPOSE!

*edit*

LEAVING = BAD IDEA

Let me say this a little louder...

No offense, but that is the worst (edit) idea I've ever heard on MB.

Listen to us.

EXPOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't leave.

Talk to WW and see how she reacts. Don't wait for her to come home.. Go to her work and talk to her. Do not wait!

You feel awful, but it will pass.

Tell all your children right away.

Actually, I think he should expose before he talks to his wife. Exposure should be done and over with before she finds out he knows - this way she can't spin anything to anyone.

Exposure list:
Parents
Boss (as she's using work resources to carry out her affair)
Close friends/family (including her cardgame group)
Your children

Tell the OM Wife to Expose on her side to the same people.

Do this this afternoon - take the afternoon off if you must.

This is a critical time, you cannot be paralyzed by fear here.

MOVE!!!

Yes, yes.

Expose to everyone first.

Then confront WW.

Tell her calmly that you know EVERYTHING. Tell her that you know MORE than she does. B/c YOU do. YOu know what a liar POSOM is. YOu know that email he showed her was a fake...a TRICK to make her take her clothes off. YOu know that the fake basement scene was a TRICK to get her into his bed. You know he's done this before.

YOu can do this!!

YOu MUST do this!!

Boy you guys/gals don't pull any punches do you?

Ok, so if I do stay how do I handle it and I don't mean the exposure, I know from reading here the right way to handle that? I mean how do I hold myself back from flying into an angry rage or breaking down like a child?

How do I become the calm and cool pillar of strength that I need to be?

And, most of all, how do I do the things to save my M when I don't even know if I want to save it?

It is really this simple:

#1 -----> Take off, try to get your thoughts straight = affair goes underground, your WW gets more foggy, gaslights you when you return. Things go even more downhill.

#2 ----> Nuclear exposure = end the affair NOW. Then take some time to get your thoughts straight.

Your head is going to be spinning for the next few weeks or months, sorry to say, whether you go for a bike trip or not. Think about calling your dr and getting on AD's.

The plan you outlined for us??

Whether or not you want to save the marriage, you want to end the affair so that your boys don't have to get their vulnerable young lives involved with this so-called "human person." So blow up the affair. You can decide later, after Creepso has bailed, what you want to do about the marriage.

tl

tlc, this is the plan I also recommend. Exposure will kill the affair so that is where I would start. Expose the affair exactly as outlined by Vibrissa. Then when your wife comes home, she will have heard about the exposure.

She will be furious about your exposure and will rant and rave all manner of crazy fogbabble at you. Liken this to snatching the crack pipe away from the crackhead.

The key thing here is to not burst out laughing when she starts in on you. Don't fight, don't yell at her and don't try to reason with her.

But please listen to us, tlc. I know you are hurting, but leaving and giving her a note will make this situation worse, not better.

Others will answer your other questions but as to this:


You ABSOLUTELY should not be making decisions about your future in the heat of passion, in a swirl of emotions. Do not make any rash decisions.

I know exposure may seem rash, but really it is a measure that will provide you options down the road. It gives you a fighting chance at recovering your marriage. If you walk down the marital recovery path and realize you cannot do it, then you can walk away. Walking away now, not exposing, does not allow you the same choice-making ability.

You leave now, you decide in the heat of the moment, and you lock yourself into a decision you may regret down the line.

Exposure opens up the future to you. Leaves you the ability to chose recovery or not in the future, when your temper has cooled, when your head is clear.

Jim, I don't remember if I have ever been called a pansy before and certainly not to my face, but thanks for saying it. I guess I needed that slap.

Time to re-evaluate and I won't go anywhere just yet.

We don't want you to hurt yourself. We care!! We have been there.


CHANGE YOUR FOCUS. Focus on a strategic exposure, tlc. You will be emotional, just do your best to control your feelings. If you feel your anger rising, then leave the room.


You don't know. And you don't need to make that decision now. Just go through the motions NOW and then decide later.

i can't advise you on how to stay calm...i would have exposed the affair on the spot...the OM would've had a cracked nose by now... and if my wife knew what was good for her, she'd keep her mouth shut...

then, i'd find a lawyer and in 90 days be done with her sorry azz...homie don't play that sh*t...

but, if you want to save your marriage listen to the experts here...it can be saved

No we don't.


I might suggest an emergency appointment with your doctor to get some AD's and maybe some Xanax. Man, that calmed me right down when I felt like exploding. I only used it about 3 times, but the 3 times I used it, it was a great help.

Another way would just be reading other people's stories (cough, cough, Runnerboy, cough) and gathering strength from other people's stories.

Also, talk to some close friends about it. Share it and it will feel better.


You don't have to save the marriage. You are in no position to make any decisions right now. Now is the time to break up the affair. If you recover afterwards is your choice. OMW wants to recover her marriage. People don't want real estate agents banging in their houses. Exposure will do several people favors even if you don't choose to save your marriage. However, now is NOT the time to make that decision. Now is the time to stop being a doormat and stand up for yourself. You don't have to save a marriage to do that, do you?

Expose NOW. Especially her work before ALL else before she spins you as some raving lunatic.

Well, I'll even fly up to Canada and call you a pansy to your face if you run away and don't expose. And you are lucky there is a filter on this forum, or I would have called you worse. Think another word beginning with a "p".

The cool thing to do is not lose control. Do not insult her, but show some indignation. Tell her that she has betrayed the family which includes you and the children.

Her reaction will be important.

tlcanuck,

Just to remind you - it can get worse if you do not follow the advice given here...

tlc, gather up the phone #s of her parents, close friends, siblings and BOSS. Get them all together and come back here.

I would first call the OMW and tell her you caught them together today. She needs to start exposing on her side. The worst thing she can do is keep this secret for another second.

Do you have a quiet place you can make phone calls?

When you call, tell them this:

I am calling to ask your help and advice about a terrible situation between WW and I. I have just discovered she is having a sexual affair with a married man named JoeFireman. His wife told me they were sleeping together and this morning I caught them together in a vacant house.

I am trying to save my marriage and am asking you to use your influence with WW to persuade her to end her affair. Since you know her I am asking for your advice.

When you call her boss, I would tell her what you saw this morning. Since your WW is doing this in the workplace, the boss has to know.

When are done with your calls, sit the kids down ALONE [no wife] and tell them about the affair and who it is with.

Those will be critical first steps. From there, we can help you expose the affair on the OM's side if his wife has not.

Go gather that stuff while I exercise. Be back shortly.

I am calling this one a troll. Everything fits and went fast.

If this is and you are real tlcanuk... you'll expose right now. Don't you have this afternoon off and the next week or so? Then I would immediately call his employer, her employer, then go to parents, then to kids, then friends.

Stop thinking canadian, get the beer and hockey stick out of your A$$ and do what the vets say.

themud...you're the man!...I've been thinking the same thing all morning...something's smells fishy here...it's too freakin perfect!

The first time I confronted it was calm cool and collected. I had high hopes that everything will work out. The second time it happened I don't think we were as cordjual, and I blew up.

I assume that you are a pretty calm, cool, collected guy when you have to be, and you can control the conversation the way you want to. If things escalate then leave the room, not the house, and try again later. Be careful not to keep bringing it up over and over again all night and week. She will now know that you know, and thas the only message that you need to get accross.

I think every BS questions whether they want to save the marriage. In reality there is the wife you married there somewhere, and that is who you want to be married to. Try to re-discover who your DW was, and determine if you want to be married to her. I bet you say you want to be married to your old DW, not this alien disrespectful evil WS.

Don't forget the recorder!

Man, I sure know where you are at right now.

From one fellow canuck to another, get off your AZZ and expose. I did it and I can tell you that I don't regret doing it at all.

There are many people on here who have not exposed and THAT they regret. No one who has exposed has regretted it.

Are you done with the phone calls yet? What are you waiting for? This is a hard step and seems wrong, but we are here to tell you that it is right. Your wife is being consumed by the choices she is making, help save her from herself. END THIS AFFAIR TODAY.

I would definitely include his employer in this list. Among other things, Firemen are suppose to be stewards in the community; good role models. When you expose to his boss though, I would go straight to the top dog, not even bother with his direct report. You want the exposure to be in the open, and if you tell his fire "buddies" they may just sweep it under the rug. Call the Fire Chief in your town and expose there.

Alright, I will stay for the time being at least until I expose this.

And now I'll answer my own question:

how do I hold myself back from flying into an angry rage or breaking down like a child?

I will channel those feelings into the most intense exposure ever felt.

You guys talk about nuclear? Tonight I will redefine the term. I have a couple hours of work left so I am going use it to calm down a little more and get my emotions in check and then tonight I will blow this thing clear into next week.

Family
Her Employer
His Employer
The kids (that one's going to hurt)
POS's W and anyone she can think of or agree to

I will let her go to her card game and do it while she is gone, then I will go see the POS and then I will show up at her card game and expose her right in front of her friends.

I read on here that many BS's avoid exposure or just dabble in it but I am looking forward to this.

I may still go on my road trip tomorrow or Saturday, but I'll blow this thing up first.

Could be, but I wouldn't take the chance either way. There have been other people who have had some "luck" with things too and they were real. You just never know.

Get yourself a VAR and KNOW that you are being recorded. Take solace in the fact that you have a plan and your WW doesn't. You have TONNES of people behind you. This is war and you need to wage the first battle. THIS is what you need to do. Stay calm and EXPOSE. Get OMW on board too.

I would still do what you're planning on doing but would change this:

Expose to her family, confirm it to OM's W, put a sentence on the letter you just wrote at the very top that says:

"Saw you today with OM. I know the truth and there is no more denying it. I know what I saw with my own eyes. X address, X time, OM drives X car."

Put the rest of your letter down if you wish.

Sorry this has happened to you, friend. You've been through it once before. You know that you will come out ok.

Take care of you and your kids.

I wouldn't keep them in the dark, though there isn't much they can do.

Then go if you must to sort your head. I can't say that's a bad strategy. You're obviously in shock and it would be good to come back with your emotions a little better in check, but the odds are that being away won't help.

You're a take action kind of guy, so I don't think you need much time.

I exposed and it did no good with us getting back together. But I want to encourage you to do this completely and fully.

I also wish I would of exposed a little better. My XW called me months later, crying and wailing . She wanted me back. I hung up on her in mid sentenece. We were married for 19 years (I was 46 at the time).

I cried and cried for weeks. I couldn�t stop. And I am a 6�3� 270 lb. body builder.

And 4 years latter I am remarried to a great woman.

I know the pain you are in. Stay on this board. Get a few friends that you can talk too. I had a close minister friend and my dad. Invaluable!

He's taking tomorrow and next week, but can't take the rest of the afternoon...?

This is a family emergency, his M is on life support...

Expose then road trip...? Ya think people are going want answers from him and his W... ? Why take off?

tl? gunna go mingle with some moose or strap on you work boots and get to work?

This is a troll!

"I'll redefine nuclear as soon as I finish saving my company from the brink this afternoon, then I have to go get some LaBatt's, cause I runnin' low, then I'll look for those snowshoes I'll need for this winter. Oh, then I'll make a 7 course meal for the kids and repaint the house then I'll expose. No wait, gotta rebuild that engine on the nova, then I'll expose... no wait"

Expose her at her friends card game only if you can keep control of yourself. Otherwise you will have simply generated a bunch of sympathy for her if you fly into an angry rage.

Hard to be angry at a man that looks like he has a broken heart versus one that looks like he could break everyone in the room given the chance.

Just be careful.

How do you keep from flying into an angry rage? Detatch yourself in your mind from the situation. You're an actor playing a role.

Let the emotions come later.

How do you keep from losing it? You keep your mind focused on YOUR next move.

Look at this as a war. You have a plan to sink their A dead in the water. Take solace in knowing that. Stick to the plan, and focus on your next move. Drown out the fogbabble. (there will be lots until she NCs and goes through withdrawl)

Expose! Just focus on that right now. Drown out everything else and focus!

You're wasting time with this. The man is reacting as someone who has already been throught his before, since he was a BH in his first marriage. I'd have my stuff together a lot better if I went through this a second time with a different wife.

tl, ignore this.

help,

he'll be in a Zen state "channeling" his anger into blissful thoughts of getting out on the open road on his motor scooter, so he will not be able to expose.

Don't go on your trip until you see her reaction. She may decide to change the locks while you're gone and say she's afraid of you.

BE WISE!!!!

You've got to play this smart.

We know you can control yourself b/c you didn't kill OM today.

YOu can do this.

Be professional about your exposure. Use the letter templates Mel has posted to you. I like your response though. I can see you are as fired up as a lot of us here, and seeing you channel it in the right direction is a good step.

At the card game i would walk in and say:
"Ladies, i don't know if you know, but my dear WW is having an affair with OM since May. I am letting you know this so the affair can stop, and my wife and I can fix our marriage."

Then walk out. Bring up examples might throw you over edge, and you don't want that in front of the ladies, because your wife will spin your words like mad. She will try to point you out as crazy, and that is the last thing you want to look like is crazy. The calmer, and more professional you handle this the better things will be.

I wouldn't expose at the card game - that's an emotionally charged situation that can get out of hand. It also smells a bit of punishment and humiliation. Exposure isn't a tool to punish, it is a tool to end an affair - it's a fine line to walk.

Also I agree - she is going to be spittin' mad when she finds out about this. Get a VAR on your person, and leave it there at all times after you expose. She could easily spin this into an accusation of you abusing her unless you protect yourself.

And troll or not- good advice is good advice, whether to tl or to lurkers.

To anyone who thinks that I am a troll (I am assuming that means someone who makes up a story here), if you really feel that then please just ignore my posts. To the rest, your advice is really helping.

I couldn't make this [censored] up if I tried and, believe me I have better things to do with my time.

So for anyone who believes this is not real I say this:

That is your right and if you really believe that then please just ignore me. I will stay here as long as I need to and as long as the people here are willing to help.

Not true. Only been married once, still am to the same woman.

edit

This is war. You must stay calm and collected. I saw someone explain it, maybe even in your thread, channel James Bond. You have all the cards and she has none.

If you do not speak with her about it before she goes off to play cards I would call all her girlfriends as well. That would shock the crap outta her. I'll bet they might have a thing or two to say to her if you put it right, ladies hide your husbands. If your exposure is done by then you can just wait at home, if not I would wait outside the house and see where she goes or what she does after she knows everyone knows.

Nope, no punches pulled here because it never works that way. Don't pull yours either. She is not the woman you love and married you are fighting a war with an alien. As Mel said, don't laugh. It can actually get pretty funny when they try to talk their way out of it and lay it all in your lap.

Take OMW with you to expose at the card game! That is, if she's really going to a card game...

And do NOT go on a road trip this weekend!

If you have questions as to the authenticity of a poster, please notify a moderator.

Let's end the troll discussion now!

They'll help you until Nobama decides to shut off the internet, it just depends on WHEN you think we have stopped helping. The help doesn't shut off... ever.

I will ignore, but jump in when I hear that you are running for cover. We've seen that when the steps are followed exactly, then A usually ends. This does not, by the way, mean R. It simply means A over.

On the other hand, when the BS "bastardizes the process" or half hazardly follows the steps, A rarely ends and prolongs the BS pain to Plan D.

Dude, you hold the upper hand so much in this situation it's insane!!! I bet my life she isn't going to a card game with the girls.

this is the part that somewhat tipped me off as being suspicious about the authenticity of this thread...

i can see the scenario of her banging this guy in one of her properties, risky though, but convenient...she'll have to do A LOT of lying to pull it off...set-up a showing and report back false information about the showing to the owners...IF I were the owners and this happened in my house...I'd sue her...

but to carry on with the affair outside, in public...holding hands and kissing (an intense kiss at that) by the car in the driveway in public? That sounds fishy to me...BECAUSE she knows you're suspicious already...seems to me she would take extra precautions...

BUT she could be that type of woman...IF she can be persuaded out of her pants that easy...you need to expose the affair and leave her, divorce her...

HA! Yeah, maybe you could show up w/ OMW and ask if there was room for one more girl to play?

Seriously though, I would not contront her at the card game.

Bad idea.

As another poster pointed out, exposure isn't supposed to be a punishment. It is a tool to end the A. Even though you haven't decided whether or not you want the M, you'd like to keep your options open until you make a decision.

So you WILL be exposing? It will happen today? Tonight? You are all ready? Any questions for us?

It does sound like a troll, but it is good reading.

I was suspicious when the wife's OM started the conversation as he stalked the home of OM.

Everything fits so well. Nevertheless if this guy is a troll he took a lot of time to plan this and he learned something along the way.

To mr_anderson, yeah that's EXACTLY how it it happened. YOU think it sounds strange? Try it from my end. And, yes, the house is an occupied house.

STOP NOW!

breeze, you are right.

tl needs help, and we can provide it.

tl,

listen to these guys AND DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY, cause things change on a dime and they can help at every turn.

Yes, I am exposing tonight, completely and totally. Ready? Not sure. I swing from looking forward to it to dreading it. I have my list of people and will start making the calls now. Not sure what to expect from her but this is it.

you need to expose now, why tonight?

You do not give mouth to mouth to a person who you know has been dead for hours/days.

YOU DO IT NOW!!!

Too right on the emotions to be a troll. TL, don�t let the troll talk discourage you. You�re so dead on on how to handle things that it is incredulous to some of us who are use to dealing with BH�s who waffle, whine, and are gripped by fear of the WW�s anger.

Her making out with this guy in front of a house she�s allegedly showing is wreckless, but since when is an addict logical? She could have easily shown the home, had OM meet her after the people she showed it to left, and then had her tryst.

TL is reacting like a man who has been betrayed before. He�s been through this once and has his head about him as a man who won�t be shocked like he was before. I would follow this plan if it ever happened to me again.

It would likewise be as devastating as it is to TL.

TL, don�t even address the troll accusations anymore. Roll with it. The accusations are an indirect complement since you are reacting as a BH should versus what we�re use to seeing around here, and I was one of those weepy whiny guys.

Hi ti,

Just looking in here cause felt like sending a post to another member. Please calm down a little. I am not a veteran or long-term member here, but would like to offer my opinion for what is worth.

I agree with Vibrissa - I think including a visit to the card game is a little too much. I think you will have your hands full this evening simply exposing to people on your primary list, including OMW and her reality boss. Just get that primary exposure done first. If I were you I would try not to run the risk of in person exposure this evening in what could become an emotionally-charged situation. If you feel you need to then do it by phone or email.

The other thing I would not do is take off. I know you feel the need to recharge and get your head clear, but I feel that leaving your wife alone soon after the exposure could backfire. I am not sure about changing the locks while you were gone, but you do not know how she will recact or feel at this point. At very least it may give her time to contact or even see OM in your absence to regroup and strategize. On other hand she could interpret that as you abondoning or wanting out. If you need time alone then please just take short walks or bike rides. And if you are not including your kids in the exposure at this time, leaving her alone for even a couple of days will give her time to spin her 'story' to them.

Regards and prayers,

Tom

We can tell you what to expect from her, RAGE. ANGER.

You will hear things like, "I was going to try to recover with you but now YOU ended it. How could you? I can never trust you again."

She will be angry. The more effective your exposure, the angrier she gets. THAT is what to expect. BUT we are still telling you that it is the right thing to do.

When you WW asks you why you did it, "How could YOU?" You simply reply, "I will do whatever I have to to save our marriage, want a cookie?"

tlc, I seriously doubt she is going to be at a card game anyway. That sounds like a ruse to go see the OM. Even so, if you just expose in the order I gave, the word will get back to her and the OM quick enough.

And I am begging you: DO NOT LEAVE TOWN. You cannot afford to leave town. I hope you have scrapped that plan. Your boys need you the most NOW. If you leave town you may return to find the locks changed and your clothes in boxes in the garage.

If he is beginning the exposure right now (as he said) - there is NO chance she goes to the card game... so no need to worry over that one.

tl,

exposure doesn't mean confront her then confront others. It mean tell everyone and their dogs cousins AND THEN confront her BEFORE SHE SPINS IT!

Who's on your list T?

Listen, I'm betting she's going to the card game. It's a weekly or monthly thing with her girls. Besides, OM and his BW are off work. He seems like he is content to screw around with your WW while his wife is off to work. He gets off work, your WW is free to come and go. It's perfect. He doesn't have to worry about getting caught as long as his BW is at work. Then he stays at home the rest of the night and just texts or IMs. He's living the double life. I'd check up on her to see where she was, but I'm betting this is actually one truth in a sea of lies.

As for exposing at the card game, I would get all your exposing done, and then call her back from the card game. When she leaves, I would call her friends and let them know what she has been up to. When she gets home, she's going to flip.

Remember, if you go into it KNOWING she's going to flip her lid, then you can't let it get to you that bad. After all, you are expecting this response. It's typical. She's going to be FURIOUS for a good 2-3 weeks. Remember to keep your voice recorder around to refute any false abuse claims. Once she is no longer in contact w/ OM, you'll see her attitude start to change around the 2 month mark.

OMW, his employers, hers (and mention had sex in his spare room, and poss. that she might be using 4sale homes, as you caught them coming out of one and kissing, and he is not looking for a home). Cheif, her dad, her b-i-l, kids, her friends, your friends and top it off with her dad.

good luck

Did you get OMW's phone number?

Call her.
Give OMW your wife's cell phone number.

Tell OMW to call your wife whenever she wants.

Woman to woman.

jim,

good call, I agree.

themud,

Well whether or not this is true I always feel it is best to give the benefit of doubt. The truth will evolve eventually.

TI,

one afterthought I had. Did you have your cell phone camera with you, and did you get a pict with zoom? That would have helped immensely in exposing to her realty boss and the fire dept. commander. If not, then maybe think of being more prepared to gather evidence if you need to monitor her again.

Good luck,

Tom

There is a lot going on so I am afraid you might get confused. Please print the above, or write it down and follow it. This way you don't get off track.

In case there is any confusion ~ the part where you were being advised about confronting your WW FIRST was to hopefully get her to admit it. No need for that now since you have your irrefutable proof. So, again, ignore that now and follow the above.

Can you confirm that you are following the above exposure plan? Hang in there.

after exposure confront, then give W OMW's #, tell W to call OMW anytime to find out about past A on POSOM.

Painful

do dat!

And....

Give OMW your wife's REAL ESTATE OFFICE phone # .... So OMW can also call there.

That is NUCLEAR .... when OMW is on their butts!

it's nuculear, haven't you been listing to "W"?

Exposure...

You looking' fer a fight?

hey pep I voted for the knuckle head once. You know, do it once shame on me, uh... no, I mean uh... to it twice... uh. What was my stratergey again?

Hi again TI,

Just trying to get thru some office work at home here and looked in again because I had another thought. If in fact you are being honest with everyone in what you saw earlier today, and if in fact you are going to expose to her employer, then what Scotland said about her rage and anger is absolutely going to be true, and probably more magnified than with most exposed WW's.

I have to admit that if I were in your shoes this would be the hardest for me. That being said it needs to be done. She is a registered or licensed agent representing the financial interests of a client (the seller). Several years ago I took the qualifying course here in IL at a community college, but I did not pursue the license. I do know that like most professions there is a strict code of ethics. I hve no doubt that when the incident is revealed to her employer that she will at least be questioned by him/her. I am not sure what amount of evidence they will require, but there is a pretty strong risk that she will be terminated, if not have her license suspended at least. That will mean that she not only will suffer the embarassment of normal exposure, but that she will suddenly face the loss of her career. I still find it hard to believe that someone with that responsibility would be so wreckless. Given this, I just feel you better be prepared for her full onslaught. You know her and obviously no one here does really. But, this is all the more reason for you to Not cut and run after the exposure.

Best of luck,

Tom

TL,
I've been wathching this as I go through my work day (don't tell my boss). Just wanted to throw a couple things in while I ahve a chance and nobody's looking.
Do your exposure just as you have been advised and thoroughly. You are getting the BEST advice.
I missed some steps and even though I am now heading for divorce, there are still things I wish I had done better when it came to the exposure. Read that script - it's right on. You'll be surprised - you'll get a lot of support from your exposure targets. WW not so much, but you already know that. You ahve a lot of work to do, so I won't take more of your time. EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE.
]
optimism

2cents: the radical honesty thing you were worried about a couple days ago-- there's a big difference between doing things behind your spouse's back to DESTROY the marriage and doing them to SAVE the marriage. Make no mistake, you're doing the latter.

My call on exposure is to invite OMW to you house. Introduce her to your wife and explain how you saw her kissing OM.

Let her explain to OMW what she was doing!

In the meantime purchase a CHECKMATE tester for your wife panties. This is admissible in court as well as to your friends.

Agreed. Confiscate her panties when she gets home and keep them in a safe location for testing. That way if she just admits to kissing OM but nothing else at the house, you have proof she was lying.

X3

She'll call the cops on him if he gets anywhere near her panties.

Hope he brought witnesses!

I'm betting...

TL, how's it going?

He needs to slip them out of the clothes hamper and hide them for safekeeping. Then order the checkmate kit to test them for semen.

That's what I meant. NOT taking them off her. GEEZ.

Can't wait till tomorrow

For those who thought this was too, too wild to be true.... Consider this. My H and OW would go to lunch nearly every day and after lunch would find a place to park and "make out" before going back to work. They would do this within a few miles of the workplace. Both were in military uniform. They took tremendous risks.

Dr Harley has written about the all consuming aspects of the addiction to affair partner and the risks that people will take to keep the affair going. Look no farther than Gov Sanford of SC or Eliot Spitzer of NY. These were men who risked everything to get their fix.

I can't remember who it was, but there was a poster on this forum who caught their spouse in the act when one of the affair partners was a realtor and had access to properties where the two of them could meet for sex.

Prayers for you, Canadian friend, this evening. I am hoping you are doing ok. There is no time now, but when there is some down time, please take a look at Sun Tsu's, "The Art of War". He was a Chinese warrior several hundred years ago and what he wrote is applicable to what you are enduring now.

AM
AM

I will even post the link for you to read a thread about it.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1704953&page=1

You can also read the book on line here http://scienceofstrategy.org/main/content/art-war-pdf-download-translation-only

T--hope you and the kids are doing alright. Everyone here is thinking of you.

"I can't remember who it was, but there was a poster on this forum who caught their spouse in the act when one of the affair partners was a realtor and had access to properties where the two of them could meet for sex."

I think there was a BH that caught WW and OM in the act in a rental property that BH/WW owned.

That was Runnerboy, and his wife even had an OC from that affair with her boss.

Some get a little obsessive about the whole �proof of sex� thing.

Don�t get panties and then test them for semen. That�s a bit extreme. We�re talking about adults in their thirties. They didn�t meet at one of her properties to play patty cake and thumb wrestle.

Will she deny that there has been sex? Possibly. But TL is not dumb.

What she�s done is bad enough with meeting in secret, kissing in the street, etc. No more proof is needed that an affair is going on.

This man is having his guts ripped out and some people are acting like this is some kind of fascinating movie. Let�s get back to the business of helping him.

Ah, I knew there was something about a vacant property. I guess it is not the same circumstance and a poor example. My intent was to show that waywards do crazy, reckless things with no consideration of future consequences. My H became more and more reckless over time. And the sloppiness in OW sending text messages in the night is what led to discovery.

AM

I just came on for a quick update since I can't spend a lot of time on here from home but reading some of the posts - entertainment and panty jokes?? tells me an update is not what I want to do. This will be my last post.

For those that do care, thank you. My marriage is over, but I'll survive. I've been through a divorce before and I got through it and I'll get through this one too.

For those that saw this as entertainment, sorry but the reality show has been cancelled.

For those that see me as a troll, now you can pat yourselves on the back for calling it out and chasing the troll away which of course only proves he was a troll anyway.

Don't make any rash decisions and don't get chased away. When peoples' lives are getting destroyed on a daily basis around here people tend to try and make jokes to lighten the mood. Sometimes they can offend the person they are trying to help.

Why is your marriage over? Did you expose? Did she say it was over? Because that's what all waywards do upon exposure. That doesn't mean it actually is. My WW told me that "I had made the decision for her and we were definitely getting divorced now." Guess what? That was almost 4 years ago, and I'm still married. Don't give up just because of what your WW says in the heat of the moment during her affair.

tlc, please do not make any rash decisions. There is no reason this marriage can't be saved. If your wife threatened "divorce" because you interfered with her affair, then she is just like every angry WS who just got caught! That doens't mean they ever follow through on it.

Please come back and let us help you through this.

**edit**

So how did the exposure go last night? Is that why you are feeling like it is over? Because of your WWs reactions? We told you she would be angry and the things she would say.

**edit**

Dude, you have 23 pages of posts in 3 days by very concerned, caring, and helpful people who have all been through something similar and lived to tell the tale. A couple of off-color posts that may have been misconstrued (the semen test is legit- you'll find mention of it in all of these threads) and you're throwing everything else away along with it? I was reading along during my work day trying to fight back tears at times wishing I could get in and post just to give some encouragement and let you know it was all going to be okay for you and your family, as long as you were strong enough to follow the plan.
Plan D is easy, but you already know that. So is hopping on your bike.

If you ever loved your wife the way you make it sound like you did (the one thing that really pulled at my heart strings for you), you owe it to HER to try to help her pull herself out of this filthy mess. Exposure is the only way. It is not easy.

Or you can call your lawyer from the road.

opt

Please tlc,

The jokes are merely to lighten the mood, I am sure they did not know it would offend you.

There are people on here who wants to help you with your marriage, if my husband didn't find this website I guarantee you that we would have ended in a divorce, so please don't write us off just yet, when all we want to do is help you.

I don't know what happened last night, but it sounds like your wife went ballistic after you exposed....and that is a GOOD sign!

I told my husband over and over while kicking, screaming, threatening, and punching him this...

"I might have ruined the marriage, but you ended it, by telling the whole world our problems."

The fog will finally lift, don't give up on your wife just yet tlc.

Last night I was talking to my husband in bed while cuddling him, and telling him how grateful I am that he never game up on me, that my life would have been a mess if we had divorced.

So please, ignore those post that offended you and let those who can help, help you.

not everyone that's been cheated on by a spouse (physical affair) has any desire to save a marriage...i've even heard Dr. Harley say that if the shoe was on his foot, he'd divorce, but if the BS wants' to save the marriage, then his program will work...

the choice is his to make, and if he decides to divorce her, that doesn't make him weak or any less of a man...

Of course it is his choice to make. No one is disputing that. And no one would blame him if he did divorce.

HOWEVER, such a life changing, emotionally charged decision should not be made while under extreme emotional duress. Almost EVERY BS feels like they want a divorce upon discovery, but when they calm down and really think it over, they have a change of mind.

That may or may not happen with tlc. But it is foolish to make a life changing permanent decision based on very temporary feelings while under extreme duress.

TL,

If you wish to discuss things offsite, notify the moderators by hitting the �notify� button and have them pass on your email. I�m happy to continue communicating that way.

There have been some misguided attempts to lighten the mood, but the truth is that the panty test is a legit tactic some BH�s have had to resort to to prove infidelity.

Don�t feel you have to run. You can always click on �ignore� for posters that are annoying. You�ll find that happens in every online forum you go to. There are some here who don�t like my advice, which doesn�t always fall into MB territory.

I can understand your thought process about divorcing. I�m not sure I could ever go through a recovery if I was ever cheated on again. But don�t feel that there aren�t those of us out here that are very willing to help you through either personal recovery or recovering your marriage.

There�s legal issues you really need to take into consideration since you have an 11 year old to think about.

Was your WW remorseful? Do you care?

No one here can blame you if you wish to go to Plan FU and D. Even if you leave, you were still an inspiration for BH�s who are afraid of doing what needs to be done. If anything, I ask you to post so that other men can use your actions as an example of what to do. We can always point to you as an example if we can have the rest of the story.

Again, please don�t leave because of a few posters who stepped over the line. They can be ignored. I�ve been on this forum for years and you�re one of the few men who has come on here and not been a weakling in dealing with his WW. That alone makes you very valuable as an example to others. Please tell us what happened.

I'd would wager $1000 bucks that he started exposing, it got back to his WW, and she came home in a fury and told him, "I can't believe you would do this to me. You have no right. I would have worked on this marriage had you not exposed, but now it is over. You have ruined everything. We're getting a divorce." He listened to what she said and it completely broke his spirits.

Listen. This is what you should have expected her to say. She is a WW. They all react the same way. Do you think she would have taken exposure in stride? If she did, that would actually be worse for you. The fact that she was SOOO angry meant that exposure WORKED! It dealt a fatal blow to her affair and she knew it. You ruined the fantasy of her addiction. And like any typical addict, she lashed out at you for cutting her off from the source of her addiction. She blames you for her unhappiness now. Her mind won't clear until probably a good 2-3 months after NC w/ OM. Then she'll realize she is to blame for HER choices. You can't take to heart what a WW says. She said OM was just a friend that needed someone to lean on. That wasn't true. So why should you believe her now when her emotions are running high and she's an addict that just got cut off? The answer is you shouldn't. Don't let the rants of a WW break your spirit. Don't make any life altering decisions so soon after D-day. Calm down, take a step back, let exposure run it's course, let your WW calm down after exposure, and see where you are again in a month, two months down the road.

tlc, if she has threatened a divorce, I want to assure you it is meaningless. They are just the empty, enraged words of a falling down drunk who was just cut off by the bartender. It is the classic fogbabble we see here every day and it means nothing. Almost every RECOVERED marriage on this board heard the same crap. And they are happily recovered today.

A WS is high on the addiction of the affair and once you remove the source of their HIGH, their outlook changes dramatically. You can't take anything she says seriously. That would be a huge mistake.

Her affair is doomed. 95% of affairs crumble within 2 years of being exposed because the very things that made them possible, thoughtlessness and dishonesty serve to destroy the affair.

Please don't make any decisions until you are in a better frame of mind.

My gut tells me she didn�t respond in this way. She wasn�t a venomous WW prior to the discovery of this affair. She was trying to gaslight him about how everything was great.

My gut tells me she might be angry about exposure, but is remorseful about the affair and I would not be surprised by if she was begging for forgiveness.

TIC --

Your first posts described a very good marriage.
Don't throw that away in the heat of anger.

And don't throw away this resource in a fit of anger either.
There are a lot of people willing to help you sort through this ordeal. Really good people. Just ignore the few who aren't helpful.

Ok, one last update because there are those on here who have genuinely tried to help and it would not be right for me to leave them wondering. So call it the "series finale".

I am writing this offline and will quickly go online and post because I don't want her knowing I am on here and I will continue to visit the site but I will move over to the divorcing section and I will read a lot more and post a lot less.

Exposure was completed last night, but not by me. She did it.

When I cooled down somewhat I went home with my mental list of contacts and the intent to drive my son to his mother's, go park somewhere and get busy with the cell phone. She knew something big was up as soon as she saw me. I guess she saw the complete disgust in my eyes. She kept pressing me until I blurted out that I knew everything. She asked me what I knew and I told her why don't you tell me. After a lot or back and forth, she broke down and spilled.

She said it started as innocent flirting (didn't know such a thing existed) and she thinks the adventure and excitement was what drew her to it. The day she met him at his house it just "got out of control" and she did sleep with him. At that point she said she felt trapped and knew what she was doing was wrong and she didn't want it to continue. So what did she do? She slept with the [censored] again (but not when I saw them). She says they slept together at his house a second time.

The POS and a co-worker started a partnership a couple of years ago and bought a rental property as a retirement investment. Now they want to buy another and she has shown them houses. She showed his partner a couple and she showed the house I saw them at to her POS lover. She insists to almighty god that nothing happened inside the house and that no matter what I thought I saw that they were not holding hands. Says he did grab her and kiss her before she got in her car but that is all that happened. She gave me the partners number and I called him last night and confirmed at least that part of her story, not that it really matters anyway. I told him the whole truth about why I was calling and his reaction was "What they do is their business as long as she does the job for us"

She cried and begged for forgiveness and when I told her about my visit with his W, she almost totally lost it when she heard about the email and bedroom. She kept asking what she needed to do to fix it and I told her that I was not sure she could but it would start with telling anyone and everyone right this second. She told me her mother already knew. That one blew me away. She called her Dad (who is nothing short of livid with her and her mother right now), her sister, my sisters (who really think a lot of her right now) and her card group which are her closest friends. At my insistence, she tried to call the POS's wife, but couldn't reach her. I tried again this morning but no answer on either her home phone or POS's cell phone. I really want to talk to him.

We told the 19 year old. He is pretty pissed at his mother right now. I didn't want to tell the 16 year old right before he went to his mother's for the weekend because I don't want her to know about this yet. She will find out in due time, but I don't want my son dealing with this with her right now. The 11 year old was at his cousins and stayed the night

She spent the night at her parent's house at my request and she is still there. She called twice today already and continues to tell me she wants me and our marriage and she loves me and is so sorry but she is also playing the victim angle (seduced by a manipulating player). It's falling on deaf ears. I was cheated on before and was totally clueless until my W walked out. This time I found out through nothing more than some lucky(?) coincidences and a built-in suspicious nature from my past.

So the marriage is over - my decision. One step at time, one breath at a time from here.

After reading the last couple of posts, let me say this. I am not a drama queen and I probably over-reacted to certain posts, but over-reaction seems to be the norm for me lately. I have been in IT for 20 years but I am not an "online type". I don't use Facebook or twitter or any other social sites and use MSN strictly within family. So this avenue is very new to me - spilling my personal life to stangers and talking to a computer screen. Computers have been my job, not my social life or therapy.

helpthelostdads, I will be in touch soon.

If that is your decision I will respect that, good luck and I hope everything goes well.

I know you are feeling pissed, but I think your wifes willingness will be a mojor factor in your recovery. I think you are going to do a great job in the next couple months.

The next step is to sit down with her have her write a No Contact letter to the other man, in her writing, and at your approval. You are the one to put a stamp on it and mail it. I think hand delivery by you might be too emotionally charge, and your WW just can't do it without trying for some closure. There is no such thing as closure in an affair situation. That is reserved for high school relationships.

then you have to make a recovery plan based on MB principles. Read HNHN, and SAA with your wife.

Edit: You say your marriage is over, whoops I didn't read the last line. Well then in that case, that is your decision. I expect when you cool down you will realize that you still love your wife.

Hey TL!

So sorry for your pain. Discovery is excruciating. Many here have been through it. Give yourself some time to process things. If you really deeply loved your wife before this then give it a little time before you make any final decisions. From what you describe, her initial reaction is more promising then about 95% of the WS's on this board.

For what it is worth, your marriage has as good a chance as any of a full recovery IF you decide you want to go down that path. Your wife has given you the old 'get out of marriage free' card but it's up to you whether or not you want to use it. Nobody here would fault you for a second if you decide to divorce. All that I am asking you to do is give it a little time before you make any big decisions. You've been through a major trauma. You are in shock. Tough to be level-headed at the moment.

Hang in there man.... this too shall pass....

**edit**

tlc, you most certainly are not a "drama queen" and are not overreacting. I am sorry that was said to you. This is very traumatic as we all know. You held up great under fire and did a superb job digging this out.

Again, I will suggest that you not make any decisions based on temporary feelings. Your marriage is very recoverable. I was in your shoes when I came here 9 years ago. I had uncovered an affair in my new marriage after my previous husband had left me for an OW.

The problem in both of these marriages were that they were not affair proofed. You can have a marriage that is safe from affairs if you follow this program.

Please give yourself a chance to get over the shock. And then make a decision.

Folks, lets stop with the name calling and disrespect. Please keep your posts respectful and productive or refrain from posting.

You have every right to feel as you do and do what you are planning.

One thing, in case you begin to think about recovery. My FWH was one of the worst people on earth who I was going to leave as soon as the kids were gone. On discovery he became so totally aware of the crimes he had comited against me that he crumbled like your wife and even more. In fact he ended up on a locked ward for several days. This leaves me with the odd feeling of being one of the lucky ones.

If you start at any point to consider recovery please take into consideration that her reaction also makes you one of the lucky ones if anything at all can be considered lucky as a BS. It sucks, it is hard but the new person she can become now will make your formally good marriage seem even better.

Just food for thought. You have every reason and right to toss her to the curb but if you waver on that think of this.

tl, im worried about a rash decision right now. I know that you feel divorce and moving on would be best, but your wife calling and exposing her own affair is something rare. She is not a serial cheater at the moment, and as I see it, wanted to come clean. You have an excellent chance to change your marriage around, don't blow it.

((tlc))

Dr Harley says we are all wired for an A and that's why they happen so commonly (I think he says 60% of marriages). ML is completely right ~ most people don't know the first thing about protecting their M and think things like opposite sex friendship or joking or flirting is harmless. The program here would require that your W practice Extraordinary Precautions and all these things would be no-no's.

I don't know if that makes you feel any better ~ but it sure did when I learned about MB.

Just wanted to add...I'm going to bet you will feel differently about Plan D in a few hours or days. (I speak from experience, I went into Plan FU on d-day but cooled down in a couple of days)

Hang in there and we will be here if you change your mind.

TL,

I concur with Wheels, your wife's willingness to expose her A is a very rare thing. My WH only began exposing his A a month after D-day. To me that indicates someone who is willing to take accountability for their actions and a good chance for recovery if you chose to try.


I will not lie, recovery is HARD. There are still days I want to throw in the towel, however I am being told that it does get easier with time.

You have been burned once before, so I understand you inclination to get out of the fire. I hope regardless of your ultimate decision, you choose to learn the MB principles as I feel that this will help keep you out of the fire in the future; Be it with WW or someone new.

Good Luck

Canuck,

I told you once you got proof that was irrefutable in your eyes and started exposing, she would end this affair immediately. If you want to end this marriage, by all means that is totally your choice, but I don't think you really know what you want right now. Just 2 days ago you came here asking for help to save your marriage.

And honestly, I'd bet that eventually you will take your WW back. So, if that does happen, come here and we will help show you and your WW the path back to recovery. If not, then the best of luck to you. You are an inspiration to many BSs here. You stood up to your WW and weren't afraid of losing her. For that you deserve major kudos. No more calling you a pansy.

I'm sorry a few insensitive ppl ran you away from this board but believe MB and the principles and most of the ppl can save you and help you heal from this tragedy even if you don't decide to stay in your M. The principles here are rebuilding a M but I know when I came here two years ago after D-Day, I was so confused and crazy and I didn't know whether I wanted to stay M to my FWH. Dr. Harley and the ppl on this board helped us to rebuild a stronger M and I am so glad that I found this Site. Even when I waffled back and forth on whether I wanted to stay M, the forum helped me survive. For me, my DH A made me want to lay down and die. I cried so much that I broke blood vessels in my eyes. My eyes were bloody for three weeks. I know how bad it hurts.

You really should expose this A to MM W and stay on the board and post. Just ignore the posts that are not supportive.

My heart goes out to you. All I can say is that no big decision needs to be made at this time. She responded as I suspected she might. It didn't sound like a woman that hated her husband because she was in love with someone else. It sounded like a classic addiction.

She got hooked on the excitement of running around in secret and put her entire marriage at risk. Self destructive behavior of the highest kind.

Something led her down this path. THAT is something worth exploring for the sake of prevention in any possible future relationship you may have with either your wife or someone else.

She isn't spewing venom at you, which is unusual.

I'm sorry you're going through this. There will be many sleepless nights, lots of anger, mood swings that are crazy, and zero appetite. Food will be bland and you simply won't be hungry. Take care of yourself and always feel free to come here for advice. Ignore those that don't contribute.

You handled yourself with pride, and can hold your head high.

Most BHs in this forum would welcome a WW with that attitude.

You cannot make a decision now. Cool off and see what happens.

TLC,

My wife never reached the begging for forgiveness stage and we are now what I consider recovered. We even teach this stuff to others together now.

If you decide that you still want to try to save this marriage and do the work of recovery, this is the place to do it. The Love Bank model works because it is based on good science and not the whimsy and fantasy of romance novels.

The part of our brain that feels emotions is totally devoid of the ability to process data and use logic to arrive at a decision. It is in fact how people find themselves having an affair, by allowing themselves to make decisions that affect them and others based on emotions.

An that is the part of your brain that is screaming inside of you right now. It is the part that feels disgust, anger, pain, hopelessness and all the rest. Once that part calms down a bit, you will begin to look at the data and circumstances that are true in your case and might decide to attempt recovery. If so, Marriage Builders gives you the best possibility of restoring your relationship.

If you haven't already, look at BT's Thread.

Mark

Update for anyone who might be interested.

I spent the weekend with my father in law at his cabin. He has a small cabin on a lake a couple hours out of town and the roof started leaking again a couple of weeks ago so we went up Saturday morning and re-shingled the roof. It was hot, dirty, hard work but it was actually nice to do something "normal" after the whirlwind of the last few weeks and the physical exertion helped me get a few good nights sleep. A few times I actually forgot about my troubles and it just felt like I was at the cabin with Pop while my wife was waiting home - then reality would hit. We worked all day Saturday and Sunday and did some fishing in the evenings and a lot of talking. I got a lot of insight into this great man's life and his troubles. I have been under the impression for years that his drinking was the reason for his wife's cheating but, in actual fact, the reverse is true. He didn't try in any way to persuade me to do anything but his life is not something I want to experience.

We came back last night and W had spent the weekend writing me a bunch of letters. She has moved her things to her parents house and is going to stay there for the time being and come here during the day to spend time with the kids. Her parents live right around the corner. She left the letters in my truck which was parked at her parents so I didn't see her last night but she wants to come by today to talk things over. The letters all seem to follow the same theme - she's so sorry, can't believe what she did, wants us to work things out but will respect any decision I make, will do anything to make things right.

Do I still love this woman? More than anything. Do I want to spend the rest of my life worrying and wondering where she is, what she is doing and who she is doing it with? Not on your life. Ending this marriage will be the hardest thing I have ever done, but I just can't see myself living the life I would have if I don't. I am not going to make a final decision right away but I really don't see myself continuing in the marriage. I am going to tell her that today. I will give it a few weeks for the wounds to begin to heal but I don't see anything changing.

OM's wife left me a voice message while I was gone telling me in no uncertain terms to leave her and her husband alone so they can put this "unfortunate incident" behind them. Head in the sand type of thing - no doubt he sweet talked her into it. That part of it really, really bugs me. The POS had his fun and now his marriage and family ends up intact while mine gets torn apart even though he was the primary driver behind it all.

In my first marriage I was young and self-involved and wasn't a good husband, just too focused on things and the fun life while my wife got neglected. Looking back I realized a long time ago that my feelings just didn't run that deep for her. When she walked out it certainly hurt, but it was nothing compared to this.

htld, I did the notify thing but haven't got a message back yet.

Canuck,

I think your WW's affair was the result of poor marital boundaries. If you have any inclination of saving the marriage come up with a list of everything you would require to recover your marriage and affair-proof it in the future. The Harley's have it all laid out right here. If she doesn't agree to the list, then it makes your decision easier. If she does, then you might be able to recover this marriage and not have to look over your shoulder in the future. Anyone can cheat given the proper circumstances. The key is to never put yourself in that situation. Maybe your WW was just naive. Maybe she had the wrong ideas about marital boundaries. I bet her views have changed now. Just give it some more thought.

I agree this is a possibility...set her up with a lie detector test to see if she has done this kind of thing before and that she is being totally honest with you now.

The fact that your feelings DO run deep for her, and that she is the mother of your child....that is good enough reason to not throw in the towel so quickly.

And don't be mad at OM's wife....SHE is the one who will be looking for cheating clues the rest of her life.

She isn't though. She has two boys, and he has one.

I know it's hard to think that your entire future with your wife would be filled with a constant vigile of monitoring her and her whereabouts, but most of the time when you have a TRULY "F" WS that will not be the case. If given time and the right directions (extraordinary precautions are put into place), she would learn how to protect you and your M. Your M could become affair-proofed and you could trust in her again. I'm sure it doesn't feel like that's possible now, but it really is. There is hope.

I'll also add that your personal R will take place whether you are M to your WW or not. But most people find that a truly remorseful WS can expedite the healing process. Her presence, her effort, and yes, her comfort, will help you when nothing else will.

No one will fault you for D her. You have that right and we all know that. However, if you would give yourself a chance to think it through for a 6 month period, your feelings may change. Most do.

Keep posting. Many here want to help.

Oooooh.....I see...she left her own kids with him? She moved in with her parents and left her boys with him?

Hmmm......

I'm pushing for you to try to Reconcile your marriage first, then if it fails you can go get divorced. No harm in trying right?

I was also very afraid of what the future would hold for me and my wife if we reconciled. Sometimes I am aprehensive that things are working out, but those feelings are few and far between and my FWW is working hard at R the M and so am I. right now we are practically in another honeymoon period of our marriage. Divorce is certain, and reconciliation is uncertain, perhaps risky, but its the risky things you do in life that give you the best reward.

If you decide to reconcile your marriage, I would suggest getting her back in the house with you ASAP, and set up Extrodinary Precautions to ensure that she does not have a false recovery. Then it is between you and your wife to reconcile the marriage.

I would also suggest calling Steve Harley. He should have some good advise, and continue reading things on this site, plus Surviving an Affair, His Needs Her Needs, and Love Busters.

Hope to hear more updates from you. Im very concerned that you might let this gem of a recovery go.

TLC,

My advice tends to focus on the legal stuff when dads fight the custody fights. I offer advice based on my experiences in the system. I also advise based on hindsight of what I wish I had done in my situation versus what I actually did. I caved, gave in to everything, and got railroaded. It was a massive uphill and bloody fight to secure my rights as a dad.

I really have no experience with recovery. I look at the world through the prism of the experiences I�ve had till now and I�m very grateful my first wife didn�t reconcile with me because I�m remarried and very happy and have regular time with my kids and my family has a relationship with them that they wouldn�t have had had I stayed married.

But I really have no idea what I would do or how I would react if my current wife was unfaithful. It�s not in her character and she follows MB principles. I�m as susceptible as much as she is. So we have strong boundaries we both respect.

I think you should consider reconciliation, mainly for your youngest son, but I can completely understand if you choose not to. There are many here who have recovered and are very happy they did.

I never did and don�t know what I would do in your shoes today. The big question for me is the question of kids. If there are no kids, I don�t see a reason to try. That�s me. Many here disagree with that view.

I have that view because there are far too many good women in the world to waste time with unfaithful ones, regardless of the length of marriage. The BIG difference for me is kids. I put their needs above mine and I know for a fact that they would prefer to see their families stay together. I know this as a father and as a child of a broken marriage.

So if there is any reason to try, it�s for your son.

I want to emphasize that these are MY opinions and many here will disagree with me and will flame me for saying that marriages without kids aren�t worth saving. Again, that is MY opinion. Many here disagree.

Take it for the two cents it�s worth.

Well it's been a couple of weeks so maybe it's time for an update instead of spending so much time reading about other people's situations. I was tempted a few times to chime in but I really don't feel qualified, at least not just yet.

Anyway on to the update. I've actually been doing OK. Yes, there have been many hard moments (and there will no doubt be many more), but I'm getting through them. W has taken up residence with her parents since they have loads of room and the 11 YO spends most of his time with her. We didn't tell either him or the 16 YO any details, just that we are having problems and trying to work through them. I know exposure should be complete and she has offered to confess to them but I don't see the point in damaging their relationship with her, especially the 11 YO. He really seems to have gravitated towards her and is clinging on tightly. I'm not sure if it's because he has a biological tie to her that he doesn't to me, but it does bother me. The 19 YO is moving into a dorm room at the university next month.

The 16 YO is another story. He can't be bothered with our problems because he has his own woman issues. First love, been dating 6 months and now she wants her space and he found out she has another boyfriend. He's heartbroken so I've been spending a lot of time with him. I know he's only a child, but he's hurting just as much as his old man is. Helping him has been a sort of therapy for me and we are closer than we have ever been and it stops me from being so lonely.

I started seeing a counselor last week. Only had two visits so far but she really seems to know her stuff and the couple hours have been really helpful. Other than that, it's been a lot of reading, thinking and analyzing. Where did things go wrong? What is my part in the whole mess? What does the future hold? Lots of questions with very few answers but there is one thing that I have realized and that is that I am not the man I want to be and not nearly as strong as I always pictured myself to be. In this thread I was given credit for being so strong and handling things so well and that may be true but it certainly wasn't me in my marriage. I don't know what caused me to handle things the way I did and I am proud of the strength I found, but the ironic thing is, it took my wife having an affair to find that strength.

I spent a couple days getting really angry and bitter and cursing myself for giving her everything but I need to be totally honest with myself and admit that my actions through my marriage were not those of someone in love with his wife but someone desperately seeking affection and approval but never quite getting it. A sad, almost pathetic little puppy chasing approval, that was me. Yesterday, she told me I am now more attractive to her than I have been in many many years and, while she didn't say why and I didn't ask, I think I know the answer. For the first time in 10 years, I am standing up for myself.

During my marriage I wasn't a man, I was a "yes man" (or should I say a "yes ma'am"). Everything from how the house was kept to what we did to even our sex life was, plain and simply if, when and how she wanted it. I can think of so many examples but this one illustrates the situation exactly. A number of years ago she left a very good job in the health care industry because she didn't like the hours and took some retirement money she had accumulated to start a new career in real estate. I supported her decision but she never put any real effort into her new career, working only 10-12 hours a week. As her start-up money began to run out things got very tight financially. She flatly refused to "lower herself" to a part-time job in retail but would not make any sacrifices on the spending side either. A new car, big home, two vacations to the south every year, etc. Now, don't get me wrong I have no problem with a stay at home Mom (or Dad) but you can't live a Cadillac lifestyle on a Chevrolet budget, to use an old phrase. So what did I do? I took a second job and spent almost two years working full-time at one job and delivering pizza 5 nights a week. It was only when I got the job I have now that I was able to deliver my last pizza. Even now, the main thing that seems to bother her is losing her "model home" (it's going on the market regardless of what else happens).

Am I just going through the "angry phase" and focusing solely on the negative? Maybe but my counselor seems to think W has a problem with consequences in that she has never had to deal with negative consequences. She was Daddy's girl growing up, the prettiest girl in school and then hooked up with the bad boy who was a professional shoplifter (no joke, that's what he did for a living) so things have always come easy for her. She has always been and still is incredibly beautiful and people fall all over themselves to please her (like I'm one to talk right?) and she's grown very accustomed to having things her way. The counselor thinks that maybe that's why the affair happened - that she got bored because things in the marriage were so easy.

I've read a lot on here about emotional needs, so here's a question - is it possible to meet someone's needs too much? Probably not the right way to put it but I can't think of another way to phrase it. Or maybe meeting needs in a way that makes us less of a person?

OK, didn't intend to write that much and I'm not even done, but I'll leave it there for now because conditions on the lake are near perfect and the Rainbow's are biting so I'm gonna grab my fly rod and head out.

TL,

I can relate on many levels. I made many sacrifices in my own career to accommodate the desires of my ex W. It is hard to say if standing up for ourselves or even if being less accommodating would have been better.

The fact is that marriage is a partnership with give and take. Perhaps I�m just lucky, in the honeymoon phase, or it�s too soon to tell, but I feel like I�m really with an equal for the first time in my life. Decisions are made jointly. We ask each other questions and try to meet halfway on things. I try to be conscious of doing too much of what I enjoy at the expense of having one on one time with her and I think she does the same.

I think you may be being too hard on yourself.

BTW, the anger phase is far away for you. It�s much nastier than you describe.

Are you thinking about saving things with your WW? Don�t keep the kids in the dark. It sucks as a kid to see your parents apart and not know why. You really start to think you�re crazy. Tell your kids the truth. There is nothing wrong with the truth.

Yes. You need to use the POJA. If she always gets her way, there is no joint agreement. Then she becomes entitled and expects to get her way all the time. Then that doesn't satisfy her and she wants more.

In a relationship, part of what makes us feel love for another person is not just taking and getting our needs met, but also giving and meeting the other person's needs. If your W didn't give to you, then she wouldn't feel love for you, even if you met her needs adequately.

I second that. When you are sacrificing whatever you want and your needs to meet the needs of another, you will fail your marriage. Your sacrifice builds up resentment in yourself and you can become unattractive and boring, you get stuck in the friend zone. My wife likes it when I say, no I don't want to do that lets POJA something else. The hard part is I have to be honest with myself to decide if I am sacrificing my needs for my wife.

When you and your WW giver and taker are satisfied by each other, and needs are met by each other then you will fall in love.

Babe, I think it's hot when you are firm with me and you don't just do what ever I like even though you don't want to, you put your foot down and become assertive!

Did I mention I though it was sexy when you were yelling at that guy for leaving even though the cops told us to wait until the ambulance come?

BTW

<--Wheel's wife

And when things don't go her way, will she know how to deal with it in a healthy, non-destructive manner?




Thank you, Jim. I now need to ruminate a bit...

Well last night was a rough night. I went fishing and came home with a couple of real beauties but when I walked in the empty house and laid them on the counter it hit me that there was nobody there to brag to about my feat. Nobody to recount every detail of the fight, every jump and run the fish made and nobody but myself to cook the fish for and that's when the loneliness set in.

jtld, I haven't made a decision yet or should I say I made a decision not to make a decision at least until I can do so with a clear head. Still feel that this is over no matter what, but the wound is still raw so I'll give it some time. W told me she won't pressure me but she sends me an email at least once a day. Many just say things like I love you more than anything, but some get into how we can fix this etc.

As for the entitlement she felt and feels and my enabling of it, what you folks say is right on the money. I don't think anyone is attracted to a wimp even if he's only a wimp to his W. My son found an e-book online and downloaded it to help him out with his own girl situation. At first glance it looks like one of those stupid do this and the girls will fall all over you type things, but the author does make some good points. I read quite a bit of it last night and this guy may be on to something. I won't name the book or author because the point of it is to increase a man's dating and he advocates dating multiple people, etc. (I need to have a talk with my son about that) but he drives home one point that does make a lot of sense.

It is quite simply that there is a fundamental difference between a woman liking (or even loving) a man and a woman being attracted to a man. Attraction is a more basic emotion and, while we can get a girl to like us pretty easily by being nice, complimenting her, etc., etc., doing those things doesn't create attraction. It's so easy to fall into the "friend" category and be liked or loved but not be attracted to. Strong, funny, confident, a little unpredictable and not "giving them their own way" is his mantra. I wonder if that's what happened with me, that the love may have been there but the attraction died. Something to think about but how do you balance that with meeting your W's emotional needs?

tlc, I think there are several things going on here and you are confusing causes and effects and believe that catering to your wife caused the affair. I don't believe it did. What I think led to the affair were a) her lack of boundaries and b)the time spent apart while you were delivering pizzas.

Certainly making sacrifices as you did was not good for your marriage. Sacrifice causes resentment [in the giver] and it creates false expectations of entitlement in the reciever. That is how I see your wife. She has a very strong entitlement attitude.

While I think it is good to recognize all this, it is very bad to go to the opposite extreme and label this as "co-dependency" and act accordingly. I hope that is not where this counselor is leading you, because that mentality is very destructive to marriages. [non alcoholic marriages, that is]

The point I am getting to is that you and your wife can fall back in love again if you eliminate sacrifice, meet each others needs and most importantly -----> spend 20+ hours per week together giving each other undivided attention.

Just to side comment on this. How old is your son? If he's young - still in High School then it is in best interest to date many people. He should be clear and upfront about this with the women he dates of course. High School is a great time to date and get to know many different girls in a relatively safe envrionment. He should date many many women, get to know them, find out what he likes, find out what he wants. I am a huge advocate for dating unexclusively.

Our society puts too much pressure on young people to have 'relationships' and find 'the one' as soon as possible. These relationships also have a high pressure to have sex, probably sooner than either person is ready for. A teen's mind is still developing. They don't have the reasoning skills of an adult. They shouldn't be having adult relationships. They don't have the tools or maturity to navigate them properly. Read Writer1's story over in the 101 forum for an extreme example of what can go wrong in this situation.

Your son should be exclusively dating when he's ready for marriage. Until then he should be out getting to know as many women as possible. I personally believe that the current model of dating for young people is what sets them up for an attitude of divorce. You get into a serious relationship with someone, because that's what you're 'supposed' to do. Then when things aren't working out - you bail and find someone else who is better at meeting your needs. Then all of a sudden you have to change perspectives when you marry - because you can't just bail once you've married. But you've already established the habit of bailing on serious relationships when they aren't working out.

DH was like that in high school - he never wanted a relationship, he was clear on that point, and dated many girls and got to know them and know what he liked and wanted. When he was ready for marriage is when he decided to date exclusively. I, on the other hand, went from relationship to relationship. I envy him his experience now.

As long as your son is clear with the girls he sees that he isn't dating them exclusively, that he wants to get to know them but itsn't interested in a serious relationship - there's nothing wrong with that, and this is probably the only time he can really do that.

That is excellent advice, Vibrissa. That is exactly what Dr Harley advises. He tells people to date as many people as possible in order to find a good match. The more people you date, the more likely you are to find a suitable partner.

Melody, the counselor and I have talked a lot about dependancy but more along the lines of my own personal dependancy on the approval of my W. She (the counselor) is very big on giving all you have to a M but because you sincerely want to give all, not because you feel you have to. Paraphrasing her, if you give out of duty or because you feel you should or because you are seeking approval, it's coming from the wrong place and will lead to imbalance. Basically, do it because you truly want to, not because you have to, and I think I felt I had to in my quest for her approval, admiration and ultimately her love. Kind of like trying to buy her love. I guess the first step is to find out why I seemed to need so badly to please her at any and all costs. Next session is Monday so more to explore.

Now I have another dilemma. My sister turned 45 yesterday and she is throwing herself a party tonight. She has a club rented and about 60-80 people invited and she throws the best parties. I have been looking forward to it for a long time and I think I need it now more than ever. To cut loose, get smashed, sing bad (very bad) karaoke and just laugh all night long and forget about my troubles. W called me this morning and asked me if we were still going. I said "WE are not going, I am". She told me she was going anyway and that I had to save one dance for her. I don't even know why she'd want to go since a large number of the people there will be extended family and most of them know what she did. Sis doesn't want to tell her she can't come. W said she's ready to face the judgements and this can be a mini-date and the first step to finding "us" again. I almost wanted to throw up. I don't even know if I want (and I'm actually pretty certain I don't) "us" but she says she's determined to "win me back" It's almost funny that for so many years I did everything to please her and now it's as if things have done a 180 and she's the one doing anything at all to please (but she won't stay away tonight to please me).

Vibrissa, I have to be honest and say I never looked at it that way but you make an excellent point and, ironically enough, the same point the author of the book makes and that is to date as many women as possible, even concurrently, to find "the one". I was ready to talk to him about what he read and drive home the points of loyalty and commitment, etc. but maybe I have to re-think that. What you say makes so much sense but it goes against what I believe on a more basic level. I guess at his age and the place he is in life it does make a lot more sense to take your approach. Thanks for that!

This is what I was afraid of and I would watch out for this type of destructive advice. Let me ask you a simple question: do you not feel a "duty" to make your spouse happy? Because if you don't then you are what Dr Harley calls a freeloader in marriage. A happy marriage is contingent upon 2 people who feel it is their "DUTY" to make the other happy.

Nor is there anything wrong with wanting approval from your spouse. It would be unhealthy to seek DISAPPROVAL from your spouse. What is unhealthy is when you make sacrifices and endorse destructive behavior to seek approval. That is what is unhealthy. But all of us want the approval of our spouses.

Folks who only do what comes naturally are freeloaders and their marriages don't last:


I would ask you to also read about how the "co-dependency movement" is ruining marriages. Most marriage counseling is so destructive to marriages that it is no wonder they have a very high failure rate of 84%. Marriage counselors actually have a higher divorce rate than the general population.

How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages


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There is a time and place for loyalty and commitment: in marriage. Dating is a chance to explore - especially in the teen years as a child is becoming an adult and exploring who they are.

As long as he is upfront and honest with the girl - making it clear that he is dating multiple people and he is only interested in getting to know her as a person. There were a couple of girls that pursued DH in high school for a commitment. He had to be honest with them. It was hard because he did care for them, but in the end it was better for all them involved.

Also, he must not use this as a means to hook up with as many girls as possible and acquire notches on his bed post - Sex is a very serious commitment and act that should be taken on thoughtfully. Honestly I think most teens aren't capable of the responsibility sex requires. Again, see Writer1's story. I'm sure you've already discussed this with him - but it's worth reinforcing.

He has the rest of his life to be committed. Right now is the only time he will get to explore with the safety net of you and other adults who love him to guide him through the exploration.

And interestingly enough - as he discovers himself, and what he wants in a potential mate, the loyalty and commitment will come naturally - because it is motivated by love, not by external, societal pressures to pair off and have a 'relationship'.

My husband has had no problems with commitment and loyalty, because he CHOSE to accept them when he was READY. Not because society and some girl pressured him into getting into a relationship. He had the guidance of loving parents to show him and explain to him what that looked like. When he was ready for it - he accepted it willingly, because he knew he wanted and was ready for a family.

So many issues with committment would disappear if people were actually allowed to explore and commit naturally, when they are ready - as opposed to being forced and pushed into it at an unnatural time in their life.

How can a 16 know what he wants to commit to if he's never even experienced what is out there?

Sorry to write a novel - I just really think our society has it backwards in this issue and it results in so much pain and bad decisions.