I a starting anew thread here because my situation has so many different layers that on any given day its a different layer that is getting to me.
Today it is SF, my #1 need.
Here is the story, My H gave me the impression about 10 years ago that he was totally impotent, he is diabetic, and takes insulin, I know that impotence is a side effect so I did not question it. I was also under the impression that he had gone to a doctor about it and there was nothing they could do. So, I resolved to repress my feelings re SF, feeling really bad for him as I know that this must be a very sensitive thing for him. Well, lo and behold he has now admitted to having sex with 3 different women, When I asked him about the sex thing, especially with his 5 year recent relationship, his answer was that they worked around it, I became, and still am furious, how could he have discussed this and worked around it with someone else without having given me a chance?
Now I feel like chit because I am convinced that I don't do it for him any more and I honestly don't feel like I should be trying to, he never gave me a fighting chance and now I feel like its because I just don't do it for him any more and he does not know how to tell me this.
Unfortunately for me, once I cam out of my fog of deceit, my repressed feelings are back in full bloom.
Please give me some guidance??? I don't know how to handle this and I can't take any more rejection.

Hey MB
I am truly having a bad day and I am waiting for some kind of response. My H just told me that what we are currently going thru is bigger than sex, I am not getting thru to him, he is limiting our conversation to now I am talking about the years he was out screwing around, is he just playing the fool here, I swear I am about to blow a gasket.

Hi teaser. Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to convey with this thread, so I'll just ask a few questions here...

Your H says that "what you are going through now is bigger than sex." What does he mean by that? Your discovery of his infidelity?

Assuming he means the tsunami caused by his latest affair (and you've sinced learned of others...I am so sorry. Did he confess these or did you have to figure it out on your own?), what has he done to try to make up for the pain he's caused you?

Is he being transparent? Exerting effort to meet your needs? And what about his supposed "impotence?" Is he meeting your need for sexual intimacy in any way? Or just crying in his beer?

Trying to figure out what's going on with you two at this time.

Teaser,

Have you thought of calling Dr. Harley for counceling? I'm feeling that the sitch you are in getting worse and worse and you really need professional help to save this M. Believe me, I know how you feel as I was in a long term M too.

I wish that I could be more help, but I'm not sure how to deal with this one. Just know that we are here for support. the one thing I do know is that you can't save this M all by yourself. I tried that and it doesn't work.

Hugs.

I know you need help, but not knowing what your story or background info on how this all came about, it is hard to help. I can go and read your other thread, but it is helpful if you stick to one thread so we don't have to hunt down what is happening with you.

Truly you will get more help if you stick to one thread and people can see your progress and story in one thread.

Off the top of my head, I believe that regardless of your WH claiming impotence due to medical issues, he sounds like a lot of waywards. Yes, he should have worked through those issues with you and not commit adultery to prove himself.

Of course you are upset, this is normal. It is not about you or that you weren't enough. You are worthy. This is all about your WS and his choices. He needs to own what he did and take 100 percent responsibility for his affairs. They were about him, and not you.

Have your read His Needs Her Needs? Or SAA? Have you printed out the EN questionaire and filled it out? I don't have the links, but I'm sure others do and can help you out with referencing the materials here. I may be redundant, but I don't know your story, or if you have had these suggestions before.

Hope you get some more help soon! Weekends are slow.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Yesterday he agreed to do the MB on line program but I am having reservations, maybe I should just do it and see where it goes but he has made promises before and went back on them, this is why I don't trust in his commitment to a program( in 2001 we went to counseling because of an EA) he lied is a$$ off in that session, has since confessed to an affair that he had denied at that time.
Yes, he is referring to the tsunami caused by everything I have just found out.
No, he did not confess, I broke into his e mail and found out a lot of things including a 5 year affair with a FRIEND??? which went on in my house and in my bed.
He is NOT meeting my needs in any way-too upset by the other things that have come to light-I'm sorry, should that not be MY excuse? I must be hallucinating or something.

I am truly sorry for starting a new thread I just thought that because I was only dealing with one of the many issues that it was best to do a new thread. Still a nubie.

Is there any way to correct this?

Hey you and I have talked before. It is weird but every time we have a conversation about our issues, he ends up acting like he is more upset than I am-is this a game or this the way WS act?

You know that is one of the problems that I run into trying to talk to my H about his A. He always gets pissed and tries to turn things around on me. Like I am the one that did something wrong by bothering him about this "ridiculous" crap. i thik they just don't want to discuss it because they see how badly they have behaved and it is their way of deflecting the real issue. No matter the reason though it's very unfair and I find it to be like "rubbing salt in the wounds". It is like he was the one that made a huge mistake, but instead of helping you understand and having empathy he feels the need to make you seem as though you are the crazy person because his life was peachy until you started talking.

Kree
You have hit the nail on the head. They somehow dont seem to understand that we NEED to have our questions answered otherwise there can be no reolution. I get angry when H does that because I feel that it continues to be all about him, and that he is forever in the driver's seat.

Kree is right. Your H is still acting like an entitled wayward. Won't work, and you know it. Problem is, HE needs to know it.

"I don't know/I don't remember" are NOT answers. Might happen every once in a while, but as a regular thing, he's just pleading the fifth. And HE KNOWS IT. Gotta stop the gaming, Mr. Teaser.

Strongly suggest you both speak with Steve Harley at the MB coaching center. Worked wonders with my then WH...two sessions and he started to "get religion." What have you got to lose that you haven't lost already?

BTW, under the circumstances, your fury is perfectly understandable. Dunno what it is with these older guys (my FWH was 59 when he went off the rails, and was a really hard case--at first, anyway.) Your H needs to get it. Steve Harley is the fastest horse for that. Hope he will agree to do it. I wonder if he understands that his marriage, and a future of growing old with a wife who loves him are in definite jeopardy...

Ok, we are still in the middle of an argument here, he has given me his e mail PW. leaves his phone out for me to see, he comes straight home and checks in with me during the day, the problem I have is that a person can delete crap out of their phone, he can delete stuff out of the e mail, he still has a work e mail that he has refused to give me access to because that would compromise his job, yet he had no compunction compromising my job and giving sensitive info to OW. The issues are that the affair went on for 5 years and I cannot understand how it is that not once during that time he had the decency to say what I am doing is hurting my family and I have to stop, the affair stopped because I found out, and he is doing a pi$$ poor job of explaining all this, including the SF thing. But I will call SH cause I need an out I can't stay like this forever, I am the one that is being hurt the most, and obviously I will get no help from him.

Hi

I have been searching the web site looking for SH's phone number so that I can call him but could not find it can someone tell me his number or where I can find it?
Thanks

Scheduling an Appointment

Just checked back in on this thread and realized I wasn't quick enough to share this info, but Justuss was...

My word, the mods here are amazing! Thank you, Justuss.

Teaser, please make the call.

Thank you Justuss and righthere, I will call today, last night was bad, not a real rage but OMG lovebusters galore from me.
This is becoming overwhelming.

Then it's time to call in reinforcements. Steve Harley is as good as it gets. Write down a synopsis of your situation, including all the high points, so you don't waste time bringing him up to speed.

Then TAKE NOTES while he talks. I was surprised that I'd forgotten much of what he'd said, till I read what I'd written while he was talking. Getcher money's worth!

Hey All
DD25 sent this e mail today to both WH and myself and I thought that I would share with you for comment.

MARRIAGE

When I got home that night as my wife served dinner, I held her hand and said, I've got something to tell you. She sat down and ate quietly. Again I observed the hurt in her eyes.

Suddenly I didn't know how to open my mouth. But I had to let her know what I was thinking. I want a divorce. I raised the topic calmly.

She didn't seem to be annoyed by my words, instead she asked me softly, why?

I avoided her question. This made her angry. She threw away the chopsticks and shouted at me, you are not a man! That night, we didn't talk to each other. She was weeping. I knew she wanted to find out what had happened to our marriage. But I could hardly give her a satisfactory answer; she had lost my heart to Jane. I didn't love her anymore. I just pitied her!

With a deep sense of guilt, I drafted a divorce agreement which stated that she could own our house, our car, and 30% stake of my company.

She glanced at it and then tore it into pieces. The woman who had spent ten years of her life with me had become a stranger. I felt sorry for her wasted time, resources and energy but I could not take back what I had said for I loved Jane so dearly. Finally she cried loudly in front of me, which was what I had expected to see. To me her cry was actually a kind of release. The idea of divorce which had obsessed me for several weeks seemed to be firmer and clearer now.

The next day, I came back home very late and found her writing something at the table. I didn't have supper but went straight to sleep and fell asleep very fast because I was tired after an eventful day with Jane.

When I woke up, she was still there at the table writing. I just did not care so I turned over and was asleep again.

In the morning she presented her divorce conditions: she didn't want anything from me, but needed a month's notice before the divorce. She requested that in that one month we both struggle to live as normal a life as possible. Her reasons were simple: our son had his exams in a month's time and she didn't want to disrupt him with our broken marriage.

This was agreeable to me. But she had something more, she asked me to recall how I had carried her into out bridal room on our wedding day.

She requested that every day for the month's duration I carry her out of our bedroom to the front door ever morning. I thought she was going crazy. Just to make our last days together bearable I accepted her odd request.

I told Jane about my wife's divorce conditions. . She laughed loudly and thought it was absurd. No matter what tricks she applies, she has to face the divorce, she said scornfully.

My wife and I hadn't had any body contact since my divorce intention was explicitly expressed. So when I carried her out on the first day, we both appeared clumsy. Our son clapped behind us, daddy is holding mommy in his arms. His words brought me a sense of pain. From the bedroom to the sitting room, then to the door, I walked over ten meters with her in my arms. She closed her eyes and said softly; don't tell our son about the divorce. I nodded, feeling somewhat upset. I put her down outside
the door. She went to wait for the bus to work. I drove alone to the office.

On the second day, both of us acted much more easily. She leaned on my chest. I could smell the fragrance of her blouse. I realized that I hadn't looked at this woman carefully for a long time. I realized she was not young any more. There were fine wrinkles on her face, her hair was graying! Our marriage had taken its toll on her. For a minute I wondered what I had done to her.

On the fourth day, when I lifted her up, I felt a sense of intimacy returning. This was the woman who had given ten years of her life to me.

On the fifth and sixth day, I realized that our sense of intimacy was growing again. I didn't tell Jane about this. It became easier to carry her as the month slipped by. Perhaps the everyday workout made me stronger.

She was choosing what to wear one morning. She tried on quite a few dresses but could not find a suitable one. Then she sighed, all my dresses have grown bigger. I suddenly realized that she had grown so thin, that was the reason why I could carry her more easily.

Suddenly it hit me... she had buried so much pain and bitterness in her heart. Subconsciously I reached out and touched her head.

Our son came in at the moment and said, Dad, it's time to carry mom out. To him, seeing his father carrying his mother out had become an essential part of his life. My wife gestured to our son to come closer and hugged him tightly. I turned my face away because I was afraid I might change my mind at this last minute. I then held her in my arms, walking from the bedroom, through the sitting room, to the hallway. Her hand surrounded my neck softly and naturally. I held her body tightly; it was just like our wedding day.

But her much lighter weight made me sad. On the last day, when I held her in my arms I could hardly move a step. Our son had gone to school. I held her tightly and said, I hadn't noticed that our life lacked intimacy.

I drove to office.... jumped out of the car swiftly without locking the door. I was afraid any delay would make me change my mind...I walked upstairs. Jane opened the door and I said to her, Sorry, Jane, I do not want the divorce anymore.

She looked at me, astonished, and then touched my forehead. Do you have a fever? She said. I moved her hand off my head. Sorry, Jane, I said, I won't divorce. My marriage life was boring probably because she and I didn't value the details of our lives, not because we didn't love each other anymore. Now I realize that since I carried her into my home on our wedding day I am supposed to hold her until death do us apart.

Jane seemed to suddenly wake up. She gave me a loud slap and then slammed the door and burst into tears. I walked downstairs and drove away.

At the floral shop on the way, I ordered a bouquet of flowers for my wife. The salesgirl asked me what to write on the card. I smiled and wrote, I'll carry you out every morning until death do us apart.

That evening I arrived home, flowers in my hands, a smile on my face, I run up stairs, only to find my wife in the bed - dead.
My wife had been fighting CANCER for months and I was so busy with Jane to even notice. She knew that she would die soon and she wanted to save me from the whatever negative reaction from our son, in case we push thru with the divorce.-- At least, in the eyes of our son--- I'm a loving husband....

The small details of your lives are what really matter in a relationship. It is not the mansion, the car, property, the money in the bank. These create an environment conducive for happiness but cannot give happiness in themselves. So find time to be your spouse's friend and do those little things for each other that build intimacy. Do have a real happy marriage!

If you don't share this, nothing will happen to you.

If you do, you just might save a marriage.
Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.

A CHRIST-CENTERED MARRIAGE IS A MARRIAGE THAT IS SURE TO LAST A LIFETIME.

So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate. Matthew 19:6

Someone else posted this recently, and I took it as a reminder that we don't have forever. Once we're into our 50s and 60s, it's an especially powerful reminder. The thoughts I came away with are:

"Don't waste any more time! Don't dally making the self improvements you need to make, rightherewaiting!"

"Stop waiting for H to push further into what HE needs to do...get cracking on what YOU need to do. Don't go lazy now!"

We are into our 4th year of recovery. The awful pain and nagging uncertainty has been alleviated, and the hardest of the hard work has been done. Even as I thank God for this, I'm finding it harder to push myself to go yet further, deeper. It's sooo tempting to lay back in the cut and enjoy where we've come. Important to do that, of course--what else was all that work for?--but having conquered the fear that drove us in the beginning, we now have to act on the awareness that we will never be done building this marriage.

So I have to ask myself, "What's next? What am I going to do to move myself and my part in this M to an even better place?"

Given where you are in the process, I ask you, teaser, what steps are you taking to move beyond that awful first stage? Have you talked to Steve Harley yet? Or maybe to your doctor for some help in containing your emotions that left uncontrolled will surely do you in?

Gotten rid of that D@%! bed yet?

Hi
I just saw your response and I agree with your interpretation, I believe DD is trying to tell me the same thing.
I have not spoken to SH as yet, my H had said he also wanted to talk to him so I had told H to talk to him first cause after all, if after speaking with SH he was not minded to do the on line program then that would be the end of it and I would have to continue with my current counselor who at this moment I am not too thrilled with, anyway, because of the time difference there was some frustration in working out a time but I believe it is scheduled for tomorrow.
Thanks for asking.
By the way, DD leaves to go back to college this week coming and I think she wanted me to make a commitment to work on the marriage before she left.

Of course your DD is anxious for her parents' marriage to continue, for her family to continue intact. For her world to be put right too.

One of the most frustrating things about waywards is that they underestimate the pain and suffering they inflict. They think it's ONLY about THEM--and it IS--the A was something they did only for themselves! No one else's welfare was considered. So they refuse to look at how their spouse and kids take the hit for their selfish choices.

Until they come out of their self-justifying cocoon (aka the "fog"), they continue to believe that everyone else is making a mountain out of a mole hill..."C'mon! Get over it already!" they say/think, because they will not acknowledge the pain they've caused (despite the obvious signs of it).

Not sure how he does it, but Steve Harley has a way of breaking through that kind of self delusion. Good that you've got an appointment, and that your H is willing to talk to him. I do hope he will listen, understand, and climb on board. AND that he comes to express gratitude, like so many FWSs here, that you didn't kick him straight to the curb.

That part's gonna take time, though.

Think about how hard it must be to admit to yourself, and then to your wife and kids, that you've been crueler than Attilla the Hun and dumber than a box of rocks.

Sometimes a WS's pride prevents recovery--and sometimes it's the BS's rage and/or resentment. I hope none of those things stands in the way of recovery of your long term marriage.

And one more thing: Have you gotten rid of that bed yet? It a HUGE source of rage and resentment. Banish it!

Hi Everyone
Today I am not having such a good day.
WH and I drove DD to the airport, she has returned to college and now I am feeling sad, empty lonely, ugh! This is the first time WH and I will be alone in the house since D Day.
I took your advice and discussed with him the MB online program, then there was a suggestion I should speak with SH, I mentioned it to him and he replied that he also wanted to talk to him, so I told him well then I think you should speak to him first. His response was, get me the info and I will contact him, I responded saying, no if you are serious about this, you look up the information and do what needs to be done. Anyway, as it turns out, no conversation has occurred as yet, something with the time difference and some kind of problem with the phone number, remember we are in Central America.
DD had a talk with me last night and I am sure she had one with him also, she is concerned and at the airport she said please don't kill each other while I am away.
I am not so sure why I am feeling so discombobulated, any thoughts?
By the way, I have not had a rage episode for a while but 2 Sunday nights ago, I did in fact get angry and, well ummm, lots of LBs.

teaser, you're three and a half months from D-Day. Still early, although it feels like years already to you. There is so much hope here, really, assuming your H has finally ended ALL contact with OW. (Has he? Last thing I remember reading, he was only a couple of days into NC.)

It's good to see you're getting a better grip on the rage. Good old brain work instead of heart-ruling-head = Good! See if you can find a way to say what you need to convey while remembering it's LOVE you're making room for. It's really hard, and you won't be successful every time, but you'll gain on it. Lord, I wouldn't want to relive those days, but I'm glad I persevered through them.

Missing your DD hurts, and you're probably concerned that she'll be worrying about what's going on with Mom and Dad. She'll be fine as YOU get fine. Silver lining on the cloud: You may find it easier to make progress when there is no one else in the house (and no handy diversion to a third party).

My H and I were all alone for nearly the first two years of recovery. Made it easy to get lots of UA time, and to do the MB assignments without distraction. I was too emotionally upside down at the time to recognize it as such, but those months of MB lessons and the intense focus on US was something we critically needed. I guess everyone does when rebuilding from this kind of devastation. I'm grateful we had that time to ourselves. Hope it will work out as well for you.

BTW, If you're having trouble dialing internationally, there's a "Canadian" number buried in the MB coaching center section--should work from anywhere, since it's a regular Minnesota area code: 651-762-8570.

If that doesn't work, here's a phone directory listing for the marketing department 651-674-5983. I'm sure they could direct you. Try that other one first, though.

Good luck getting started. Thoughts and prayers with you.

RHW

Is there anyone on line who can give me a good definition of extraordinary precautions?

RHW I thank you so much for always being there for me, I truly appreciate it.
So here is an update, WH spoke to a coach last night finally and it appears that his assignment is to write down extra ordinary precautions. So, at least he has taken the first step, see one of the big problems both me and DD has been having with hi is that he keeps saying that he is willing to do whatever it takes to get the marriage back on track and yet we keep catching him in lies, either outright or by omission, that really ticks me off and then I tell him, you know what, just go, cause I can't deal with you any more, then DD would take him into another room, talk to him for a while, then he comes back with an answer.
So, I guess one of my issues now that DD is not here anymore is what happens when the next lie pops up? She has been my emotional prop, completely supportive and I now really miss her and feel lost without her, she has been extremely honest and outspoken with her father and that was a great help with me cause she was able to do it without all the drama that comes from me.
I think I recognize now that one of the internal struggles I am having is that my H really has done a lot of things to me and I feel that we really ought to be going our separate ways and the fact that we are still in the same house makes me feel like somehow I am settling for less than I deserve and that even to me I am coming across as pathetic.
I truly believe that he has maintained his NC, there is actually bitterness between them now, apparently she is truly disappointed that he did not leave me for her.
My other issue is that I see him trying to work on the marriage but somehow I am not feeling comfortable with his attempts because I feel like why does he have to "work on being with me" why did it not come naturally? did you feel this way? is this normal? how am I going to get past this? The sex thing of course is also another issue, if he has not wanted me for years, why would he all of a sudden want me? and can I trust what he is doing? I don't know.
I will give it the old college try but right now I feel hopeless.

And by the way, the answer is no, have not gotten rid of the bed as yet we were waiting to get DD off to school (with respect to the financials) first.
And yes, it is causing me problems big time.

hey guys
I am reposting the above hoping for some input, just caught WH in another lie about the nature of a previous affair that was also discovered on D Day, I am T-I-R-E-D. I truly am thinking that this is hopeless, I am going on a vacation, will see where I am mentally when I get back, otherwise my rage is going to come back, thank god for Lexapro!!

Teaser, as one myself, I relate to BWs "over a certain age," many years into their M's when they are blindsided by infidelity. "Older" couples have a long history, which often helps when it comes to investing in recovery. I am really pulling for you.

Good start that your H has maintained NC and has talked to Steve. (He turned my H around.) I hope Mr teaser takes this first assignment seriously...creating his list of EPs, the behaviors he will practice (and those he will avoid) to protect you and the marriage... The habits he will develop that will ultimately make him PROUD to be a man of honor, and YOU safe to be married to him. A lot resting on what he chooses to do next.

I hope he realizes that this is about separating the men from the boys... and that at 59 years of age, this could be his last chance to do that... and remain married. We'll see how much he wants to remain married. He will only make it work IF he is willing to exchange the easy dishonesty of SAYING what he'll do for the character involved in actually DOING IT. He must hold himself to keeping his WORD. You can help by tending your side of the street, or you can hinder or prevent progress with blame, failure to focus on yourself, love busters, etc.

And teaser, it is GOOD that your DD is away! It is not only unfair to her to triangle her into your marriage, but as you can see, it did nothing to change the dynamic between you and Mr teaser. Didn't change his behavior in the least if you're still catching him in lies.

You must connect directly with each other. Having an intermediary is crucial, yes, but let Steve, the professional with no personal/family relationship with either of you, be that outside influence.


Yes, I was affronted that my FWH had to "work" on being with me. It hurt a LOT because I didn't see myself as the monster he'd made me into in his head. Besides, HE'D hurt ME beyond belief...and I was willing to work with HIM! Seemed so upside down and unfair. But after a while I could see that demonizing me was what he HAD to do in order to JUSTIFY the affair and the lies. HE was "unhappy" and he didn't see it as HIS fault, so it had to be mine. Ask anyone here, they'll tell you the same thing. They will also admit that they weren't perfect, and contributed to the loss of love in the M in one way or another. That's the part we don't want to face, like there's stuff the WS doesn't want to face. But denying it doesn't make it not real.

It's gonna take some time for him to recognize (much less overcome) this "stinkin' thinkin'. Took time for him to wind himself into this way of thinking...while he's unwinding it, ignore it as best you can as you examine the stinkin' thinkin' YOU brought to the M over the years. I cringe as I remember the moment I started seeing mine...




He won't "all of a sudden" want you. Any more than he will "all of a sudden" be truthful. This is of a piece with the stinkin' thinkin' referenced above.

Surely over the years, things you said and did (or failed to say and do) encouraged development of his self-justifying ways of thinking...the making you the bad guy and him the poor, beleagered victim, suffering along... You know, the things we all do out of ignorance or selfishness. The independent behaviors, the prioritizing other things over spouse and marriage, like kids, jobs, schooling, volunteer work--whatever. Truth be told, WE were feeling some resentment over what THEY did/didn't do for US, making it easier for US to justify not being that totally dedicated wife we were when we walked down that aisle.

The whole thing is a dynamic. Husband's and wife's behavior playing off what the OTHER says, does, gives, withholds. Makes it easy blame the other while ignoring our own contribution. So tempting for the "faithful" partner to go all innocent and morally superior because we didn't do THAT...and fail to see our part in the deterioriation of the marriage that helped lead to its downfall (which is the only part we have control over fixing). So hard when we're destroyed by our partner's "Checkmate!" (affair), but our responsibility to see our own failings. And fix them.

If we don't, we're just as dangerous as the wayward spouse who blamed everything on us...

Is there anyone who can give me advice on a VAR and a sim card reader? I would like a recommendation as to what brand to buy or both? thanks.

Hi Righthere
You know I was under the impression that there were no replies, I just saw this and have read it over and over, I can see that you know exactly what I am going through and I want you to know that I am truly taking what you say to heart.
I want to say thanks again for responding, sometimes when I write and get no response I get to feeling really down cause I don't really have anyone who truly understands what I am going through, its almost as if they don't know what to say to me, the 5 year span is more than my friends(and me of course) can come to grips with and they are all telling me to kick him out, I believe that they are all wondering why he is still in the house.
So when I am feeling down this is where I come. When I don't get any responses it just send me deeper into my depression.
Right now I am on a trip to NY so I am only now going to get a copy of SAA and HNHN so I am behind in terms of where I ought to be I guess.

I understand that friends are telling you to kick him to the curb, because before my H had an affair, I was SURE that's exactly what I'd have done. A lot of us were sure that's what we'd do...

And then, it happened. And we find ourselves hesitant to throw our mate, our family, our marriage, our whole life away. A truly hellish position, hard to fathom if you've never been there. The BS's who went immediately into Plan D assume that's what YOU should do too. It would be understandably painful for them to consider that their M's could have been saved, that there WAS a way, but they didn't know it. Their decisions do not have to be yours.

Glad Mr. t spoke with Steve. Is he working on his EP's? There are some great threads by FWH's and the list of EP's they created, but I never bookmarked them. Look for posts by HPB ("her papa bear," formerly known as "tst"). I'll look for them, but maybe someone reading will already have it bookmarked and will post a link.

You can set up an email notification for when a response comes on your thread. Click "Add this thread to my watched topics" at the bottom before you post on your thread. Then go to the "My Stuff" button above the posts, choose "Watch Lists" from the drop-down menu. Then click "Watched Topics." You'll see "email notification" on the right hand side. Click the "Immediately" button next to your thread, and you'll be notified by email when a response comes through.

Maybe you can get an appointment with Steve while you're in the States. His advice would be invaluable to you. Let Mr. t work on his stuff, but get some guidance for you too.

Here is one of many good posts on Extraordinary Precautions. I trust HPB/tst is OK with my quoting him for Mr teaser's benefit, but if I'm out of line here, I'm sure someone will let me know.

Hi
I will try to get the appointment with SH. Thanks for the instructions, I am doing that right now, will let you know if it works-I am new at this technology stuff but the fact that I was able to break into my WH's e mail tells me all is not lost.

I obviously am doing something wrong because I got as far as the watched list but when I clicked on it I did not see the e mail on the right hand side like you said? what am I doing wrong? I clicked on "add this thread to my Watched Topics" then I submitted the reply, then I went to my stuff, then watched topics.....?

I am asking for some advice as to what brand of sim card reader is best, the ones that I am seeing appear to only be able to copy your contacts list, I also need some advice on a VAR?

Did you go to the drop down menu when you clicked "watch list and click on "Watched Topics?" This thread should be the only one there. THEN look for the email option.

Try hitting "refresh." If that doesn't work, maybe you could use the "notify" button at the bottom of your post and ask a moderator. Unless someone else here can show you another way...

Sorry I can't help you with sim card readers or VARs. Hopefully, someone else can.

I hope you'll be able to talk to Steve while you're in NY. He's in the Central Time Zone, and has appointments as early as 6 am (7 am Eastern/NY time).

OK.

Well here is an update, my WH went to a function last night which for him was an official function, meaning that he had to be there because it was being hosted by his job, OW and her H was there, which I find strange because I had heard they were getting a divorce but the thing is that she had to know my WH would be there given the fact that his job required him to. Thoughts?

I think you should attend all future functions with him.
Where did you hear they were getting a D? From your H? Does her BH know about the A?

Believe me I would have been at the function if I was there but I am currently in NY.
Actually BH had told me himself that he was filing for a divorce but the talk is all over town that he is so I am surprised that they were out together.
Yes BH knew of the A cause he was the first person I exposed to.

Did your H know she would be at that event? Hope HE was the one who told you she was there. Have you two discussed what needs to happen to avoid such a thing happening again?

OW no longer works with you or him, as I recall, right? Why was she even there? Hope your H didn't so much as make eye contact, and got out of there as fast as he could.

How DID he handle it? And how long will you be in New York?

So here is another update, my WH just called me to tell me that he just got a phone call from OW, she asked him if he knows if her picture s still being circulated and he says he responded by saying no I don't know and I cannot talk to you and he hung up.
I think that she knows that I am out of the country and she is trying to re-establish contact, she probably thought (if he is telling the truth) that by asking him that question would open up dialogue with him.
Does anyone else see it the way I do or am I being paranoid?

Have you not changed your phone number at home, as well as your H's cell phone number? This needs to happen. All avenues for contact need to be extinguished. Your H should never have answered that call. NC needs to be firm.

We changed our numbers after D-Day, but can't change our work numbers. My H and I have a plan in place for that: If the OW were to ever call him, he is to say "I can't talk right now. Give me your number and I'll go to another room and call you back." Then he calls ME with the number, and I make a friendly call to let OW know that her contact is probably the worst decision she's made in recent memory. I'll also be calling her BH so that he's aware of her incredibly unfortunate choice to call my H.

Hey Righthere
No WH did not know that she would be there, I have since found out that she lied to her H by telling him that her job required that she be there.
We had never discussed what we would do if we ran into them, it is still so soon and we have been so busy dealing with our internal stuff we never got around to discussing that.
She works for the same ministry that he works but in different departments, sort of like working for the FDA, one works with the department that deals with drugs and the other working for the department that deals only with foods.
He said that he stayed on the other side of the function, his cousin was with him and he confirms this.
I am in NY till Thursday and then I go to Florida to do some shopping with DD before she heads to Barbados which is where she goes to school.
Also wanted to let you know I called to get an appointment with SH, left a voice message.
Wh says that seeing OW did not affect him in any way, he is so past her, he now sees her for the person she really is.
But my thought is that she is playing games, she knows that I am out of town because her BFF works for American Airlines and she was the one who processed me at the airport. I think that she will do her best to get to him but little does he know-he is being watched!!!

Hi Bliss
No we did not change the numbers, we will be doing that now though. She actually called him on the job's cell phone and she did not call from her own phone so he says he did not recognize the number. Which tells me that she is up to no good and she knew he would not otherwise take her call.
Heres what I did and pleeeeaaaase let me know if I was wrong, I sent her a text, copied to her H letting her know that my WH had informed me that she had contacted him, I told her if she did that again we would be compelled to take out a restraining order against her, I advised her she should feel free to show my message to her attorney, tell him I suggested that this time he needs to do the requisite research which will show him that she has no constitutional right to privacy for crap that went on in MY house. I told her that I am the one that e mailed her pictures and she well knows that so if she has any questions pertaining to the pictures, I dare her to call me and put the questions to me.

Nicely done, teaser. Any attempt at breaking NC needs to be met with swift and unrelenting action. There can be no wiggle room on that.

That little drama-queen witch! Of course she is up to no good. Changing all phone numbers pronto will close those avenues. Try to anticipate any other holes in your fence and close them. Not sure how a restraining order might work in your case, but that's what lawyers are for...



Good that he views her differently now; nonetheless, NC is still of the utmost importance. Not just to keep him on the straight and narrow, but for your peace of mind! Very good that HE told YOU about that accidental contact, but odds are good she will try again. Yes, he needs to be watched, but at the moment, it appears SHE needs it even more. Her poor H.

Hope you're able to catch a session with Steve over the course of your travels.

Where will you be in Florida this week?

Hi
I leave for Ft lauderdale on Thursday, I will be there at 1:30. I am still trying to get the appointment, I did speak with Laura and because my WH spoke with Jennifer she says thats the best person for me to talk to so she will try to set up the appointment. Wish me luck!!

Hi Bliss
I also thought that sending it to both she and her H puts him on notice that she is still trying to contact my H. She may have fooled me for years but as I told my WH, I am awake now and I am no fool, all my instincts are now in full gear.

I asked where you'd be on the off chance you'd be close enough for a fly-by meeting...but FLL is hours away. Oh, well.

I do hope you'll be able to talk with Jennifer. Keep us posted, and enjoy this time with your DD.

Hey, teaser! Where'd you go?

Hi Righthere, good to hear from you.
Well I returned home on Tuesday. It was a good vacation in that I thought that I had come back with some definitive goals. Unfortunately, based on conversations I have had with WH, which in turn triggered my anger I feel I have stepped right back to where I was before my trip.
Here is one of the conversations, I told him that my brother in-law sends him his love but said to tell him that he is a little angry at him right now because his family is in a tirmoil over what has happened and he does not know how to fix it, WH's response was tinged with anger, basically saying he does not understand how that could be-now mind you OW's H is my BIL's first cousin, his response then triggered my anger and well, the rest is history.
There was something else that is related to BIL's sister being angry at me as a result of something OW said to her which was all a lie, but my issue is that it stems from a situation that WH discussed with OW that had absolutely nothing to do with OW and is related to my job, instead of WH saying I am sorry I should not have discussed that with her, his question was how do I know for sure she said what they are saying she said-SIGH.
So we just had a long conversation and I told him that when I reflect back to his interaction with OW he appeared to be so happy and I can see and feel that he is having to work real hard at being with me and THAT is making me feel like crap. I told him if being with her is where his happiness lies then I think he ought to go because his unhappiness is getting to me but I am no longer going to tolerate his moodiness as I did before, I am sorry but he took a lot from me and I have no more to give. I know you will probably yell at me for my love busters but I am mentally tired. How am I supposed to meet his needs(Plan A) when I am in this kind of anger? and how do I stop the anger when he keeps behaving this way? I DON"T KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.
I am crying, I actually feel like screaming, weeks ago you told me to write down my top d ENs and give it to him, which I did, he did not even respond, which I just pointed out to him. He thought that it was just an FYI-huh?? do I sound like I have time for just an FYI? and he did not even bother to ask any questions? I can't do this.
I spoke to Jennifer and thats why I cam back thinking I had a clear idea of what to do next, now, I have no idea.
Do I sound like I am ranting? yea well, I guess I am.
P.S.-I did buy SAR and HNHN.

I'm so sorry you came back with a plan and hit the wall before you initiated it. Problem was, you reacted instead of sticking with the plan. Threw the plan out when your H showed anger instead of holding on to yourself and doing what would have kept things from escalating. Showed anger yourself...which you HATE seeing in your H! He hates it in you too. Probably hates it in himself. And it spiraled out of control, like it always does. And nothing changes, except you both have more holes in your hearts.

There's no point in yelling at you for the love busters... You've already seen that giving in to your own anger only brought you more of what you don't want.

Unfortunately, if you really can't get a grip, you might as well throw in the towel. He yells, you yell. You each blame the other for behaving badly. Round and round you go, but the circle leads back to the same place. Misery.

Somebody's got to go first. He's waiting for you. You're waiting for him.

Checkmate.

Take some deep breaths, get some sleep, and dust off that plan you came home with on Tuesday. Implement it. Hold on to yourself, and detach from his anger. Think about how many years you've spent building a family and a life with this man, before he did something incredibly stupid. Think about how you don't want to see it all irretrievably lost because you're angry now. Bite your tongue. Detach from his anger. Think of your own anger as poison that will kill you. Ain't worth dying for.

When he says something that lights your fire, quietly say, "This conversation is very painful for me and I can't handle it. I'm going out for a walk. Be back in half an hour."

Get out of the house, calm yourself down, come back and resume the plan. He will change the way he operates when YOU change your dance. He can't mambo while you're waltzing. It's just the way relationships work. No, it isn't fair, but it's the way it IS.

You, however, have an advantage. You understand the plan, you know others in your situation have made the plan work, AND you have Jennifer and us here to back you up and give you encouragement. What's your H got for a plan, or support in carrying one out? Who's encouraging him? He is shooting in the dark. All he's got is guilt and shame. You've got to live the plan, then he'll see it. Gonna take a while, though. I KNOW you're made of sturdy enough stuff to do this.

Did Jennifer tell you to read Love Busters or Surviving An Affair before His Needs Her Needs? I can't see how either of you could fill each other's love banks by meeting needs if your love busters have blown the bottom out of the vault.

Start reading SAA, get the Love Buster book, and you'll see what I mean. In the meantime, if you can't make yourself be kind or loving, force yourself to be at least civil and pleasant. No sniping or sarcasm. Give him ROOM to show you his sorrow. He can't with you yelling at him.

That's a start. Fortify yourself and try again. Don't give up yet, teaser.

Hey
Thank you so much for your response, I hope that you realize how much I appreciate it.

The thing about my WH is that his initial response is not so much in anger although I don't doubt that there is in fact some anger there at the nerve of others to criticize OW, for me its the fact that he is taking up for her that is driving me crazy. And thats my trigger. He does not blame me for behaving badly, at least he doesn't say so. The trigger for me is the content of what he is saying.
One of the things I keep asking him is how he really feels about her, he claims he feels nothing, does not miss her and does not think about her. I have a problem accepting this, how can you have been in a relationship for 5years, talking on the phone a minimum of 5 times a day, e mailing and texting in addition to this, and meeting however the hell number of times they did, he disrespected our home and me publicly; so I don't feel that he is being honest and I keep telling him that if he is not ready to be honest with me, I have serious problems about his commitment to the M.
He actually told me last night that if he were in my position he would have walked-so what am I to think of that? is he telling me that I should walk, christ, I am more confused than ever.
I did not get the Love Busters book, the stores did not have it.
By the way, did I tell you that HE also spoke to Jennifer? but since then I don't believe that he has been doing anything MB wise. I feel like has gone back into the behavioral pattern he was exhibiting before but I told him yesterday that behavior is not conducive to the marriage but I also explained to him that resting on his laurels wont get the job done he has to be constantly vigilant-unforunately this is a pattern of his behavior, he starts things zealously but the interest quickly wanes.
I already read SAA, I am waiting till he is finished with HNHN so I can read it.
Please tell me something, one of the things I have been looking at when I read other posts, is whether other As lasted as long as 5 years, I finally saw one person who referenced a 5 year A, and she is still having a hard time, I know that there are other people out there who have had probably longer As, I just would like to know of the recovered ones. I need to know that there is truly hope for us cause right now it all seems so black and I am feeling like I am overseeing WH in the process, sort of like overseeing a child to make sure they eat, bathe and do their homework and I am just thinking this is too much for me. I know for sure I cannot save this marriage all by myself nor am I willing to do it all by myself.
I have read your response over and over, I hear you and I agree with you one hundred percent, understanding is only a part of the battle though, executing is where it all becomes really tricky.

Here is another question I have that I want to pose to anyone who is out there and can respond.
How can a BS do a plan A if she is angry? also, I gave my WH a list of my ENs a few weeks ago and he did not even bother to respond.
So, if he is not bothered to attempt to meet my needs, how am I supposed to work up the energy to meet his? am I being selfish in asking why does this whole thing seem to rest in MY lap?
Am I being self centered if I am struggling with the fact that on D day I found out
1. that my husband was involved in a 5 year PA
2. that the A was with a "friend"
3. that the affair was conducted in my house and in my bed
4. That in addition to the 5 year A, I also discovered 3 other affairs
5. that although WH had told me he was impotent, he was having much sex out there, albeit, according to him, it was all oral.
6. that in addition to everything else, he was bragging about his affairs to his older brother and his friend.
Its been 4 months and although I don't scream 24 hours a day, the pain is there constantly-I have read SAA, I recognize that I need to do a Plan A but......

How come I have such a hard time getting responses here?

This is a maintenance issue for me, teaser - you need to break your posts up into paragraphs to make it easier to read. I get to about line 6 and my eyeballs start twitching! Could be other posters are the same way.

Teaser,

I have not posted to you before. My H's A was not as long as yours, but we are in the same decade of life and have had long marriages.

I have read here (and I believe it was a comment of Dr. Harley's) something along the lines of the more there is to resent, the harder it is. You have a great deal to resent. Somewhere, Dr. Harley also talks about the three things needed for just compensation and recovery (paraphrasing: ending of the affair, establishment of extraordinary precautions and meeting BS emotional needs). In return, the BS has to meet the ENs of the WS. Dr Harley also says that if a couple can't stop talking about the A (dwelling on past mistakes is an enemy of good conversation), they are often headed for divorce.

Where do you think you are in reference to the above?

AM

Maybe it does help to know that dr Harley does not suggest plan A indefinitely, but only 3-4 weeks for women to avoid emotional breakdown.

So, if you keep in mind that you don't have to endure giving without receiving too long, maybe it does help to motivate you to concentrate for this relatively short period of time?

And no, you are not self-centered at all. I guess the point is that to join you he has to admit his wrongdoings. And since the list you gave is quite "impressive", he has a lot to admit. Which will be very painful for him. And to get there a strong kick (Plan A + Plan B) is required.

I believe that the more the WS has to work on the less they are willing to R the M and end the A. In your case (and mine too) your WH has a long term A and other A as well.
Lots to work on, to analyze...lots of work to do on himself. Lots of admitting he was wrong and making ammends.
WS really do not like that...and human being in general have a hard time admitting faults...so I imagine that the R of the M must look like a daunting task.
Nevetheless, without the WS going thru the process of admitting his mistakes and wanting to R the M and going thru radical honesty...the M is pretty much doomed.
I am writing this not to discourage you but to make you aware of the situation. Awareness helps us put things in perspective.
It is not said that your WH (and mine) will not come to terms with himself and decide for integrity instead of destruction...
blessing

Thanks to all of you who responded.
I will try to answer all of you in this post.

I have to first start out by saying that I am having a particularly difficult time of it right now due to my WH's lack of honesty.

Army-I am sorry for the way I wrote my post. I guess my writing skill is worst than I thought cause I thought that I had my post properly separated. I will try to do better.

Aetna
I agree with you, there is a whole lot on my plate to deal with, I have been broadsided. I have a lot to deal with. I am now though, at the point where I feel that I cannot continue to take sole responsibility for this M. Whenever I say I am tired of all of this, he says I am so sorry for what I have done and I will do all the things that are necessary (he had a phone session with Jennifer, as did I), but then he does a little bit and then stops till I remind him then he starts back. Its like having to deal with a child, reminding him to brush his teeth, wash his hands, take his bath,- my WH will be 60 soon-I will not be his parent. Part of the problem in our M was that he kept doing wrong things and I kept making excuses for him, did not confront cause I did not want to hurt his feelings. There will be no more of that! look at how well that worked for.
We had a talk on Sunday, he told me if he were in my position and I had done to him what he has done to me he would have walked a long time ago-WTH??? So what exactly does that say about me?
He had a 5 year relationship-it was not just about sex, he says, it was a RELATIONSHIP. yet he is now trying to convince me that because he ended it as soon as I found out, that he does not think about her anymore, does not miss her, does not miss their conversation; how am I supposed to believe that? well I don't. The bottom line is this, so long as he continues to not be honest, moving forward is impossible.
The other part to this is, you cannot keep telling me that you will do all that is necessary to rebuild the M and yet cannot be honest about your feelings.

Four weeks ago I sent him a list of my top 5 ENs. I know he opened the e mail cause I have access to his e mails, but he never asked me anything, never even mentioned the mail. When I said this to him on Sunday, he says he thought that it was just an FYI mail. Huh?? Given the crap that we are going thru right now, whyy would I send something like that if I did not expect a response? WH is not a stupid person(well not totally)so I have to think he is playing a game and I am sorry but I am not in the mood to play.
I just returned from a vacation in NY which is where I had my conversation with Jennifer, I came back with a purpose and goals for my M but after Sunday's conversation, I have changed my mind.

Am I wrong?

teaser,

Your WH sounds a lot like what my H is when it comes to communicating.

My H did cut off his affair immediately, as well. He called OW and told her that it was over. They have had NC since then.

He was able to turn off a switch, and for him I attribute this to "compartmentalizing" things. He describes it as basically keeping things mentally separate in his head - that what he did with her was somehow very separate in his mind, and it seemed a part of another "life" in a way for him. He mentally separated it.

As far as his avoidance of talking about the affair, and talking about recovery methods and approaches, this isn't unusual. One of the things I wonder about in your sitch is if he is somehow still in contact? Are you spying?


If you're sure about NC, then the issue of talking has to move forward. The honesty thing is a huge issue - and maybe if you do print out my post to CGIR your WH would recognize himself and your frustration in there. You never know.

Another thing you might want to look at is an older thread that I wrote called something like Body Language and Memory or something like that. Search my name and it will come up.

Use some of the techniques - especially the idea about keeping the "talks" very short and limited to one topic only - to try to open him up. I had to use this approach to gain my H's trust that we would not have marathon talks, and that we would not venture off topic and hit him with unexpected things.

My H is the kind of guy who has to think about things before he talks. I tend to be fairly fast on my feet. So discussions are rough for him, and I can wipe him out in a heartbeat in any kind of argument. We know that, so "fighting" isn't in the cards for us. We HAVE to work things out so they are fair for him - and I have learned that I MUST listen to him. He actually has a great deal to offer me..........IF I SHUT UP AND LISTEN.

That is the key with the WS, lots of times. The BS has been hurt, but the WS has strayed for a reason. We have to listen to find out what is happening, and we have to be quiet and still to hear what is at the heart of the matter.

Sometimes that is the hardest part. Read the thread and go very slowly - patiently - and one thing at a time. You will get there.


If you decide not to go to a Plan FU.

Which I happened to do, by accident. For me, it seemed to work.

SB

I will get back to you after I read the thread.

I have one question for you though. When I read your statement that My H is the kind of guy who has to think about things before he talks" the first thing that came into my head was-oh hell is she married to my WH?
I am actually laughing!!!

Teaser- I know a lot of the MB veterans will have advice for you (I'm unfortunantly still too know to this and trying to process and figure out things myself) I did want to say that you are not the only one to feel this way.

I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around Plan A- especially because I feel like I have been doing this, for years. We have had several "good" talks about what we need over the last couple of years and, after each one, I have done everything I can to try and be a "better" wife.

It's exhausting to put that much energy into making someone happy when you are already feeling so hurt and betrayed, and harder (in my opinion) when you don't see an effort on the WS's part.

MJ
Thanks for your response.

The thing is, right after I discovered the A, when he was giving the reasons he felt unloved, nothing he said was true.

1. He says that he felt that all I needed him for was as a partner for social functions. I then pointed out to him that the only social functions we have been to over the past 3 years were functions that HE was invited to, so I was going with him and not the other way around.

2.He said we never discussed the issues-I reminded him of the number of times I tried talking to him and the fact that it was a one way conversation, he said I came to him when I was mad and he did not want to respond-so I asked him, what stopped you from coming back to me at another tie to discuss it. Apparently it was only MY responsibility to initiate conversation. His answer to the problem was to become a serial cheater.

3. He says he feels I did not really care about him as I did not seem interested. I reminded him that he kept demanding privacy, I fought it, then he just took it. So when he got his privacy he interpreted it as me not caring. DD pointed out the many things I did that could only mean I cared. He said at the time he did not look at it like that.

I know that I am not perfect, but I also know that I do not deserve all the crap that he has done.

I even saw e mails where he was bragging to his friend and to his brother about all the women he was scre..ing.

Surely I deserve better?

Teaser... Like I said, no real advice, just empathy from me right now. I am struggling with Plan A- but I feel that I have tried everything and this is, at the very least, deserving of my absolute best effort. I won't know if it works unless I try 100%, right?

My WH also gives a lot of reasons everything from me paying too much and/or too little attention to him, caring too much about the kids & house when I was a stay at home mom, and caring too much about my job when I am working. Telling me that I wasn't sexual enough and it's my fault that he "has" to look elsewhere. And sometimes "I don't know why I did/do it. It's not your fault"

We discussed it recently and I told him I was feeling confused about why this really happened. That sometimes he says it's my fault and sometimes he says he didn't mean that. His response?

"I never said I didn't mean it. I just said I shouldn't have said it. I meant it but telling you just made you mad at me."

So, on to plan A. Kill him with kindness. Or is that just kill him? Some days I forget!

With tongue in cheek I say, just kill him-always making sure before you do it that his life insurance is up to date with his payments. Hahahahaha-I kill myself!!!

Just a little humor to try and lighten the mood, we need it.

teaser_8 and MJ830,

Listening an active wayward and believing the information they are giving to you will not get you anywhere (easier to say than done). Their mental state is strongly affected by affair and the connection with reality is lost. Of course, it is very confusing when a person with whom you have spent years starts giving you all this nonsense but I strongly suggest - ignore it as much as you can. I have seen in these forums even excuses like "you like Pepsi but I like Coke".

Try not to laugh, ok?

But for me, for an outsider, the excuses your wayward spouses are giving to you right now are as laughable as the above.

Please remember - the affair was not your fault. There was many other choices. And deep down, they know it too.

Stop following fogbabble, use Plan A (limited time, no expectations!) and, if necessary, plan B.

teaser. I�m so glad you�ve had responses from so many others. Armymama gave you a good bit when she passed on Dr. Harley�s observation that the more a BS has to resent, the harder it is to forgive. And yes, you have a boatload. She also asked you where you thought were in the process (ending the affair, establishment of extraordinary precautions, meeting BS�s emotional needs, BS meeting WS�s emotional needs, and avoiding talk of the affair (once the WS gives the BS the information about the A the BS requires). A very good question to ponder. I hope you will.

Think about what Atena said, too.

In order to visualize this, you�ll need to step out of your shoes and into your H�s for a moment. Very difficult, I know, but try.

His reality in the aftermath:

He knows he has expressed remorse to you, and that he�s gone NC with OW. You've snooped to confirm this.

He�s told you he�s put her out of his mind, that he doesn�t miss her.

You don�t believe that, and I respect that you don�t. Believe me, I do. I�m asking you to allow that it�s possible. That he doesn�t pine for her. I say this only because my H said the same thing, and I didn�t believe him, either. After what he did, and how he threw me and our 37-year M 0verboard, cut off his kids� he wanted me to believe he didn�t want to marry her and be with her forever??? Beyond imagining to me!

Turned out it was the truth. He was just using OW. Took me a long, agonizing time to realize that was the truth. An ugly truth...all about selfish feel-good for HIM, and to he!! with everybody else. I�m amazed now that he could admit such a thing�that he'd trashed our marriage and used some other woman to prop up his flagging, 60-year-old ego. Must�ve made him feel like dog poop, although I couldn�t see that at the time for my own pain and anger. Could be true in your case, too. You cannot be sure it isn�t, can you?

You are concerned that he is not fully �getting with the program.� Improves for a bit, then backslides and you have to be �Mommy� to get him back on track. Heaven help me, my H did the same thing�for months. And I prodded and pushed like Mommy, too. Made us both more miserable. What I should have said to myself when I realized I was doing this, but was too caught up in my own emotions to use my head was:

"STOP BEING MOMMY. You can only do your part�not his."

Here�s a reason he may not be giving it full effort. Like my H, he may not be convinced that any of this MB and counseling stuff will ever get him out of the doghouse (and your angry outbursts confirm that for him). He sees the carnage, and he doesn�t believe he could ever fix what he's messed up. He has every reason to believe you will never get past it. He told you HE couldn�t if the shoe were on the other foot! A good indication that he thinks you can�t...

Why would he want to go through all that sturm und drang if, based on how it looks to him, it will do no good anyway?

Read Schoolbus� post again. The part about compartmentalizing�very typical, especially for a man. My H did it too.

And the part about her H being the kind of guy who has to think about things before he talks. My God, I think we're all three married to the same man! I am not that way AT ALL, and I�m sure he experienced me as a human AK-47, ripping off rounds. He couldn�t compete with me in verbal warfare, and I sure didn�t show him any patience. I wanted this thing fixed, right now! (Do you see yourself here?)

I learned it doesn�t work that way with that type of communicator (classic introvert processing style). I feel really bad now about how I pushed my H to communicate in a way he could not, at a pace he could not. That he �took� that kind of heat (over and over again) without throwing his hands up in despair is an indication to me (now) of how much he did want to put things right. I just couldn�t �read� him accurately. Couldn't see his pain because I was so caught up in mine. Besides, for a while there, I wanted to blame him, and to punish him. Not my most noble moments. Thank God he stuck it out. (�Course, he�s grateful I stuck it out too.)

Yeah, the calming down, listening and examining our part is the hardest thing. But it�s critical. You�ve got to find a way to get there. He�s got his work to do, too. Maybe Jennifer can help.

This is already too long, but there�ll be time for more.

Rightherewaiting,

Thank you for this post. It describes me and my H very well. And there is a perspective in your post that I had not fully considered before.


Using the coaching center has been very helpful to us. Our coach is really good about picking up when things are not tracking too well and I start to tire. She talks to me and then to my H. I don't know what she says to him, but from the first conversation, he stopped lying. And now, 7 months later, he gets back with the MB program if he starts to slack off.

AM

Recon

First, I am grateful for your response.
Second, you can't say things that are that funny and then tell me to try not to laugh and I must tell you I tried real hard not to, but was unsuccessful.

While trying not to feel sorry for myself, I have to keep reminding myself that it has only been 4 months since D Day, I was thrown a humongous curve ball and with the resulting crash of my self esteem I have to fight harder than ever to maintain by mental balance. When WH starts feeding me crap, I am instantaneously triggered into rage and love busters. I am a person who is used to being in control of my emotions and I am struggling inwardly with the total loss of control, the harder I try to maintain control, the easier I go into the rage.

But I am going to try real hard to work up a Plan A, we will see how I fare with that.

Will keep you posted.

Hey SB

Just read your thread as suggested-hmmmmm very interesting. You seem to be rather insightful.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I had a bad night last night, got into my rage-on verge of violence but was able to stop it. Love busters!!! no sleep.
Busy day on the job. Siiiiiigh......

First, I am relieved to hear from you that it is indeed possible for WH to cut off his affair, since mine and your WH sounds like they were built from the same mold, I will buy into this concept unless and until I am given reason to think otherwise. Thank you, cause I sure did not see how that was possible.
I only now am starting my spying. You probably don't know this, but I live in Central America so the gadgets recommended in the spy thread are not available to me here. I just returned from a vacation in NY and FL and I did bring back some toys but I was having problems with the installation, one of my staff members came over and assisted me today so we will see how it works. For this reason, I cannot guarantee that NC has been maintained, this is a source of angst for me but I have had to try and exercise patience, obviously trusting WH's word on the matter is not an option.

I think though, that perhaps the most important piece of advice you gave me is the "shut up and listen" one, its not something I have been doing much of lately and WH has asked me on more than one occasion in the middle of a conversation"can I speak now and you just listen"? SB, methinks you have been lurking in my house but I am not complaining, coming from you, the advice makes sense, from him? well....

See I came back from my vacation quite energized with a plan for the way forward but then we had a conversation that did not go well and this is when I became despondent and started thinking maybe the best thing is for us to just go our separate ways.

However, I am promising you that I am going back to the drawing board and will try again. If I get inadequate input from WH though, there is no telling how that will go.

Hi Army

Thanks for responding.

In answer to your question, yes WH ended the affair, he spoke to Jennifer, wrote down some extraordinary precautions but when he showed it to me he said that the list was not complete, that was about 3 weeks ago, I have heard nothing back from him on that.
Here is where we run into a big problem, I sent a list of my top 5 ENs, I sent it by e mail, he never acknowledged receiving it and said nothing, when I told hi this his response is that he thought that the e mail was just an FYI, huh? given what we are going through should he not have at least asked me why I sent it?

So then I get angry, and then I say, why should I bother with a Plan A for him when he is not bothered by my ENs?

SB

Another cause for a setback was the fact that while I was away OW called him, and I felt that his response ought to have been, did I not ask you to respect my wishes and not call me? instead, she asked him a question, he answered her and then said, I can't talk to you and hung up. I have asked him to get me a copy of his phone records because I need to verify the duration of that coversation.

Atena

I want to apologize to you for my misspelling of your name yesterday when I responded, I hate when others do that to me, blame it on my age!!!

Yes you are right, R of the M is looking more and more like an unattainable task, he has repeatedly stated this is what he wants to do but he keeps getting stuck on the honest thing. Right now integrity and WH need to be introduced, don't think they have actually met.

Hey
As usual, thanks for being there.

So, last night was not such a good night, we started a conversation and it went sour, I went into a rage, was on the verge of violence but stopped myself. Love busters galore!!! yea, I deserve some 2x4s.
I am seriously beginning to wonder if you SB and I are actually married to the same WH.

I am paying keen attention to what everyone has said, because I recognize that I am currently lacking in coherent thought, so I plan to try and get back the enthusiasm I came back from my vacation with. But I will try.

I will definitely not play the mommy role, thats baggage from the past that I absolutely refuse to do.

But you know what? in the middle of all this I feel lonely, starved for affection, I think I am especially enraged by the fact of what I see as him not attempting to my MY ENs. I wonder why that is, I know I should ask but I am afraid of getting my feelings hurt, that honest crap cuts 2 ways you know?

Last night I showed him SB's thread, so then he attempted to explain to me why he started a relationship with OW and the others. Well I have had many men who have been telling me that OW had a pattern of starting up relationships by repeatedly telling the men how badly her H was treating her and this would eventually lead to an A, well WH said she did no such thing with him, that she hardly mentioned her marriage, so I then said well I guess that means that what happened between you guys was just a natural attraction that developed into something bigger? and ....., he said yes. OH God, that hurt.
And yes, like you and SB I am a human AK-47 so oh yeah, I see myself quite vividly in you and SB. scary isn't it? I guess at 4 months post D Day, I am not yet at that point where I can resist blaming him.

Okay.


You broke one of the rules. You responded angrily when you should have

shut up and listened.


Wow. This guy was willing to tell you the truth and you let that opportunity slip away???????


yikes

No excuses in the world should go for you on that one.


You showed him my post, and he WANTED TO TELL YOU THE STORY.

That is huge, teaser. HUGE.

He is open to telling you, but the problem is



you.


In this case, your listener is broken.


You have a big job in front of you now.

Your assignment:

In this order.

1. Write him a very short note that says, "I did the wrong thing. You were willing to talk to me, and I wasn't willing to hear what you had to say. I'm asking for another chance, can we do this over, only this time, I will respect you - you have my word on this. I apologize for my disrespect. I want to try again."

2. You will NOT offer any excuses for your lovebusting. Regardless of the fact that you are in pain, he had an affair, he was wrong, etc., this does NOT give you permission to disrepect him. Only you know that already, right? Think of it this way - you CAN control your lovebusting. You would NEVER use this approach if you were disagreeing with the President, your boss, or with a tiny child. Because, you CAN control the words you choose. THEN CONTROL THE WORDS YOU CHOOSE WHEN YOU TALK WITH YOUR HUSBAND. He deserves equal respect, even though he did something wrong.

3. Set up a time for the two of you to talk. HE TALKS, YOU LISTEN. Remember, this time is not for you to be reacting to what he is saying. This is a time for you to hear his story, to offer him time to tell you the details he sees as necessary. This will be when he gives you the high points of the story, and likely will say some things he hasn't said before, IF YOU PLAY THE LISTENER ROLE RIGHT.

If you use the 15 or 20 second rule right, he will talk, openly. This works - and you will have lots of information to process

LATER LATER LATER LATER.

Remember what it is you want? The story? What happened? The truth? His feelings? Answers?

Give him the floor, and see where he goes. He almost gave it to you, and you reacted. This time - control it.

4. If he says something that hurts in the course of the conversation, your ONLY response needs to be one of the following limited choices:

-silence, until you gain your self-control and can say one of the following choices
-"That hurts, but I will need time to form my thoughts"
-"It hurts to hear that, can you hold on while I go to the restroom?" (and you go to the bathroom, take a moment, collect yourself, and go back CALM!)
-"Okay, I'm sure you know that hurt me to hear. Maybe later I could ask about it more."
-"Ouch. Can't talk about that too much now, let's go on with what you were saying."


You get the idea, right? Either go out of the room and collect yourself, let him know it hurt and you want to talk more about it later, or let him know it hurt and MOVE HIM TO THE NEXT THING.

But you do not react angrily.

Reacting to it is not the issue. Reacting to it is something you need to POSTPONE - because you have to have time to process this later (later later later).





This conversation can set the tone for your future "talks". Your self-control in this one conversation can open up the trust door for him - if you do this right.

shut up and listen
use the rules
shut up and listen
do not react
shut up and listen
wait the extra time before you say anything
shut up and listen




5. At the end of about 25 minutes, you say to him, "You know, you have been so good to talk to me for nearly half an hour. I know how hard this is on you, and I know you hate marathons. Let's stop here, and we can pick it up again next (whatever day you pick). As you can see, I CAN do this with respect, and I CAN listen to you. I think I need some time to think about what you've said, and I think I can work on myself a little based on what you've revealed. Thanks for talking to me, and for your honesty (even if you don't think you got what you wanted, thank him)."


Then, do something ELSE with him. something positive...sit on the patio, light some candles, and eat some cake.


or something good



Do this.

Repair the damage and start again.


Plan A.

fix it


SB

teaser


That post of mine is NOT meant as a 2X4, by the way! I hope you don't take it that way. I wanted to help you use the strategies in the body language post and apply it to the lovebuster party you had - so you can repair what happened.

I think you can fix your marriage. I just think you can.

I think right now you are angry, and it's getting in your way. Don't let that happen, if you love him. Never let anger stop love from getting through.

SB

Points well taken and no, I don't look at it as 2x4s even though I am quite sure that I deserve them

Let me just clarify something though, this all started when I showed him your post as we had discussed,now its not like he was doing as you suggested, i.e. telling me the whole story, but he did offer a couple of sentences and then I started asking questions, remember, or perhaps you don't know, on D Day I did not only find out about one affair, I fond out about 4. I tend to put more emphasis on the 5 year one because in that situation, OW was a very close family friend and the fallout from that has been monstrous. Please don't get me wrong, I am not making any excuses for last night, but I don't believe that WH is capable of sitting down and talking to me for more than 10 minutes, thats as much honest and openness as he can handle, so being the investigator that I am, I then jump in with questions otherwise we will sit there in silence and thats not sarcasm.
I just showed him your response-I don't only show the ones that are favorable to me, so I pointed out that you were the same one that wrote the post last night which said that he should sit me down and tell me the whole story, are you ready for this? he says you did not say that in your post I told him yes she did, you know what that means? he was only humoring me, he did not read your entire post. Now I wonder how much of it he actually read.

I will however continue to pledge to shut up and listen.

My staff would have loved to see your post, I think they would be in shock that someone read me the riot acr-I am actually smiling cause that is exactly what I needed.
Thank you so much.

SB

He just informed me that he wants out.

Are you snooping?
Did you get phone records you mentioned?
Did OW called after 5/12/2010?

Hi Recon

She called him about 2 weeks ago while I was on vacation in NY. I immediately text both she and her H telling her to stop contacting my WH or we would be forced to take out a restraining order against her.
I just got a SIm card reader today so I will check his phone when I am sure that he is asleep.
No I have not gotten the phone records as yet and I guess I wont either.
I just think that he is not up to the task of doing what needs to be done and I cannot or will not attempt to do it all on my own. It takes two to make a marriage.

Well just checked his phone, nothing there.

He must have left his laptop in the vehicle cause I can't find it and he is still up, I thought he was asleep.

Did he explain more the wanting out - separation, divorce? What is the reason for him?

believe it or not we were having a conversation about a MB post that I had showed him the night before, that he told me he read but as it turns out he never read it at all, so I calmly asked him whats going on, are you mocking me or something? and he replied that no he was not mocking me but that he decided that the best thing for him to do is to leave. My immediate response was ok, when. he said give him 3 weeks because he has nowhere to go.

Do not give him 3 weeks, give him by the end of the day, write out your plan B letter, pack his things, leave them on the door step.

If he wants to leave, lets give him that chance shall we?

Sapphire

Thank you for saying that.

The minute the words were out of his mouth, I said really when? he hesitated and said I need 3 weeks, I told him you do not have 3 weeks, I want you gone now, so he says I have nowhere to go, I told him you shouldda thought about that before you made the statement, I then went to his closet and took down all his clothes and they are in a heap on the floor, I told him if they are not packed and out of the house by the time I get home from work this evening I will help him get them to his car. When I told him to leave now he says that the best he would be able to do is to go sleep in his car, my response/ Have at it my brother.
Is this man crazy? after all the things he has done does he think that I will tolerate this.
I believe that he has been playing some sick kind of game all along and I am not taking it any more.
One thing for sure HE DOES NOT HAVE THREE WEEKS!!!!

He's leaving? WHAT?

Makes me wonder what else is going on...

If he does go, use the time to get a grip on your emotions. Stay cool, and stay here.

Hugs and prayers for you.

Hi

I really need advice.

Given the events of the past few days, am I crazy to think that WH is playing games with me?

He called DD last night, she then spoke to me to find out if I was calm, I said yes. She said that WH told her that he did not say what I am saying he said. Why would I make this up?

I am so freakin sick and tired of crying, getting angry, feeling tortured, I am plain TIRED!!!

So, heres what I am thinking, he threw that statement out as a bluff, did not expect me to jump on it.
The question now is what do I do now? I mean, if he comes home and says thats not what I meant or whatever the hell excuse he is now going to give, what am I to do? How do I structure the way forward? cause I have to tell you that my instinct right now is to say, know what? whether you said it or not, just get going. Look at the prank he pulled giving me the impression he had read SB's post when in reality he did not? He did not realize he would get caught.

I think it is time for plan B which removes you from the games and gaslighting (btw, the example where your WH tries to confuse you via your DD, is exact example of gaslighting) and gives to your WH conditions for recovery.

Structured way forward.

I feel that I need to give an update based on my last post and the subsequent events.

The day after my last post I sat down and wrote out things that I wanted to say to WH and say them calmly.

I came home and gave him pen and paper and told him I was going to speak, I wanted no interruptions and if he has any questions to write them down and ask them when I am done.

Here are the highlights of what I told him.
The games WILL stop now, I am done with that. Pretending to read an e mail when you really did not is something I view as playing games.

In the past, he has done wrong things and I have made excuses for not demanding that he owns up to his actions by making excuses for him. It ends now. He will own up to what he has done and take responsibility for whatever damage control is needed.

I have taken on a mother role in this relationship and that too is DONE.

That although since D Day he has been saying how sorry he is and is asking for a chance to rebuild the M, his behavior says otherwise. The message I am receiving is that I am sorry but....
So long as there is a but at the end, its not good enough for me.

You make attempts at trying to make up, but some of your efforts go for a couple of days and then you stop. Not acceptable.

That threat the other night about I have made the decision that its best that I leave, which ended up backfiring on you? don't try it again, the next time your belongings won't just be on the floor, they will be put outside. Maybe you are under the impression that, because it has taken me such a long time to decide whether to stay in the marriage, this means I cannot live without you? WRONG. I am taking my time because whatever decision I make, it will be one that much thought and effort went into. However, understand this, I do not operate a revolving door, once you are gone you will stay gone.

You have caused a lot of damage to the M nd to me personally, yet you mope around as if you are the wronged one here. GET UP OFF YOUR LAZY A$$ and do what needs to be done to try and make up for what you did, just SAYING you will do it accomplishes nothing.

I expect you to start posting on MB.

So guys, as a reminder, I found out the details of the affair by breaking into his e mail and reading all the mails that were saved over the past 5 years.
So yesterday I brought up one that I had forgotten to ask him about, because this female was wishing him luck with his new love. So when I questioned him, here was his response " I don't know what she was talking about cause you don't tell one woman that you are having an affair with that you have a new love, so you must have misunderstood the e mail" Huh, bloody hell, another one? OMG.

Guys I don't know how much more of this crap I can take, I feel like walking out there right into traffic in front of a large enough vehicle so that I am guaranteed death, there has to be an end to this pain, I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE.

How does one get rid of the visions in their head about the WH having sex with OW, please tell me how to get rid of it as I don't know how. Unfortunately, I was forced to read all the details of their sex life in the e mails, so not only do I have visions, I even have the sounds to relate to.

Please give me some help???

I had a real breakdown this morning screaming, physically beating up on myself......

I am totally lost.

teaser,

Just caught up on your thread.

He's a gaslighter and game player, for sure.

I see you went to Plan FU, which can work. I had one of those events myself. It wasn't quite the same as yours - it didn't come to the "throw the clothes in a pile ready for packing" point.

It did come to the point where I yelled at him in the backyard (thankfully we live far away from any neighbors who can overhear). My H used to like to pull this "you are so controlling" crap out of his pocket whenever he was angry about anything. He knew it pushed my buttons. At this point in recovery, he was NOT pulling his weight, and he was being a complete jerk. He was acting like I needed to

get over it

and I was at the 6 month mark. Not wanting to get over it, and wanting to see him WORK.

We were moving a large glass table into the garage, and I had an arm injury, so this was a big task for me. With limited arm movement, I was anticipating how we were going to move this table, and saw that we were going to have to lift the table up and over something, while at the same time we were going to have to tip the table at an angle to get it through a doorway.

We had already started toward the garage with the table, and I looked at the doorway. I asked him to wait a second, and then asked him, "When we get to the doorway, which way are we going to tip this, left or right?" - - only so that I could figure out how to grip that table and whether I wanted to be the one going forward or backward on the project. I had to consider my arm, and which one would be doing the most work. I didn't want to drop a glass table.

He looked right at me and as mean as he could said, "Oh, as usual, here you go. You have to control EVERYTHING, even which way we tip this stupid table."

I was LIVID. I put the table down, and stared straight at him, and we went from zero to Plan FU in a heartbeat.


He was like a deer caught in the spotlight. I told him exactly why that remark was WRONG, how his biting me about this simple question was wrong, and how our relationship probably would have been - and should have been OVER six months ago.....except for the fact that I chose differently.


His end of the work had been EMPTY, because it was his expectation that I would do the work. And that if his changes didn't materialize NOW, I would walk away.

I was there because I wanted to be there, and because he said he wanted me there.

If either one of those conditions changed

the marriage was over.


His remarks went in favor of CHANGING my wanting to be there.


It was a very hard few months after that - for him and for me.

Ultimately, we got there.


I still have my days. I think he probably still has his. I will say that we do keep our eye on the prize 99 percent of the time, and that although our marriage is not perfect, we are better than we have been. There is one thing he no longer ever says.

"controlling"


Because, the truth is, I am not. He now is the daily witness to a couple that does have this issue in their marriage. He often remarks about how stupid he was for ever even mentioning this word to describe me!

BTW, the Harleys do not make any note or recommendation for Plan FU.

Neither do I.

For the record.

SB

I feel that this drips and drab honesty thing is so cruel, why won't he just tell me everything and lets be done with it? now, with this new affair I have just discovered tells me that my marriage has been off for a much longer time than I thought. And to make it worse? he tried back pedaling but I would not let him get away with it.

I mean how do I get past the anger? the piece meal honesty is preventing that.

The concept of meeting his ENs is so foreign to me right now I don't even see a light at the end of the tunnel.
He still is not wholeheartedly meeting my ENs.
My number one need was SF, he tells me there is too much tension between us for him to do that!!! so he continues to be the one calling the shots.

I don't know, what does this say about me?
Does a person really get over all these affairs?

I have to find a way beyond this point cause I am only hurting myself, yet I don't know how to control it.

It is devastating to find out that while I was working on trying to make a better life for us, he was out there making a better life for himself from his perspective.

There is an issue that as far as I can recall no one on MB has commented on and I need some input.
What do you think of the fact that he lied to me telling me that he was impotent, and then was out there having sex with all and sundry? he says it was always only oral sex because he can't do more, but this is one of the reasons why his As came as such a shock because I did not think that a man who was impotent would do that. I thought that he would be too embarrassed. In my limited experience, I was under the impression that men who had that problem would go to prostitutes, not conduct 5 year affairs.
When I asked him how did he accomplish sex with OW, his response? We worked around it, my response was damn, I was never even given that opportunity. UGH!!

My life is such a freakin mess and I can't see a way out.

He is a liar.

You cannot believe what a wayward says while he is still wayward.

If his lips are moving he is lying.

I agree that the information that there is a potential "new love" is something that is questionable. I wonder if he was breaking it off and told her that he wanted to search for a new love, and she wished him well on that? It is one possibility, IF the liar is not lying about this. I doubt it, but a remote possibility.


In your situation, I wonder if you have a man on your hands who is believing that your Plan A is his permission to do what he wants. Plan B looks like the only way for you to go. I hate to say that, but it looks to me that your husband is feeling quite entitled, and I wonder if there is still another OW on the hook.

the thing, with respect to the new love issue? I was not even aware that this was a person he was having an affair with, I thought that it was just a friend that he was confiding in telling her that he had a new love. You see I have have been accusing him of being in love with OW, so that was the point of the conversation, until he responded the way he did.

How do i, or he justify the impotence thing? like how do I wrap my mind around that?

He is irritated right now because I am demanding that he start posting here, he says that I am trying to "counsel" him. I told him if I was counseling him I would be the one telling him what to do, what I am suggesting is that he comes here so other people with more experience and less emotional involvement can give him feedback on his behavior.

teaser, you and your H both are making very strategic mistakes right now. The lovebusting on both sides is so bad that I am very concerned. You need professional help. You are both too messed up to pull yourselves out of this on your own. PLEASE sign up for the online program so you will have a coach and Dr Harley walk you through this. Don;t try to do this on your own.

Hi Melody
I fully agree with you and will see what he says. I have been telling him this, he has spoken to Jennifer once as I have. The problem I see is his ability to commit to a program. I really don't want to start something that he will not be able to stick with, and I mean that in no insulting way, it has just been his pattern to start things and then stop. For example, I feel that he started out trying to follow the plan set out, we had a couple of good days and then he just started slacking off, when I slipped back he could not understand, he thought things were going so great. He does not fully understand (even though he says he does) that this is going to be a long process.

By the way, he is now posting.

That is EXACTLY why you need to sign up for the online program. That way you have a coach at your disposal *AND* Dr Harley. Dr Harley will help get him on board if he starts slacking off. That is what you need. He is the biggest stick and that is what you need.

To his credit, he is very good at motivating reluctant spouses to get on board. And he is very good at calming down erractic, emotional BETRAYED spouses when they are acting as their own worst enemy.

The online program is much more proactive and comprehensive in that you have WEEKLY contact wtih your coach. She gives your lessons and if you don't complete them, you are contacted. You have daily access to Dr Harley so if you are having trouble, you go post to him and he will straighten out your husband. [or you if need be!]

Thanks Melody
I will discuss it with him. I will let you know what he says.
This has been a truly bad day for me.

I am so sorry, teaser. {{{{{{{{{{{teaser}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks for being there.

He was just telling me that someone had posted to the effect that the online program is a waste of time but I don't see the post. I guess this means that he is not sure that he wants to do it.
For sure I can tell you that I cannot continue to live the way I have been, so my next choice will be to walk away from the marriage and try to get IC for myself.

No, its not a waste of time. Just ask some of us who are in recovered marriages!! The online program is the same as the weekend seminar except now you don't go listen to DrHarley in a hotel ballroom, you listen to him online.

Many of us have gone through the course here and our marriages are fully recovered now.

The person who wrote that it was a "waste of time" said:
So I guess he thought it was a waste of time becuase you have to actually DO the work! It doesn't work like magic against your will. It is not the osmosis program for sure!

Would you mind posting to him and telling him that? I don't even see the post that he was referring to, did you see it?

I noticed that you have already posted to him.

teaser, here is the post. It is pretty funny. here

Here is the link to the online program. here

Thank you so much for being there!!!

He's cherry-picking quotes. Of course, not everyone will have the same result using any given program. Ask him to read the bazillion other quotes that say MB saved their marriages.

What he's doing is pretty normal for someone who is not used to having to make a sustained effort.

Hey, teaser? Go to your doctor and get some meds. I just read that you were hitting yourself. That won't be a one-time incident and it will escalate, so get meds, okay?

Teaser,

so glad you came to the board so the vets here can help you get through your situation, they are good people that truly care about the broken hearted who show up here.....
Your husband has hurt you very badly and I can understand your devastation, but you can over come this, stay calm and try to put together a plan for yourself....
First of all go see your doctor and pick up a script to help you with the anxiety you are feeling.....maybe some IC as well......
Then you can deal with your husband and what has gone on in your marriage, if he is willing to set up time with the Harley's that is great, if he is not you can get great help here as well.....
You need to get the whole truth from your husband and the affair has got to be over before you can make any decisions for your marriage, give yourself time, don't rush yourself, you are not equipped right now emotionally to make any big decisions......
Your marriage can be saved, it will be hard work on both your parts and your husband will have to be on board for this to work......
Like I said give yourself some time, go to the doctor and remember you are worth the time and effort it will take........you are one of God's children and he has his hand on you ..............believe that he walks with you and keeps you strong.........

MB

Thanks for your response.
I had gone to the doctor before and was in fact put on AD, I stopped it myself( I know I should not have done that) but I guess I will have to go back on them.
I am struggling so hard cause I have a job that is demanding, I am the head of my department so I make all the decisions, this is proving to be so difficult
I believe that if WH was doing what he was supposed to I could have stayed off the meds, but, the fact that he has not been following the plan like he should combined with the fact that I KNOW he is not being open and honest sort of took me back to D Day so I guess this now means I have to start all over.
You are right, I was hitting myself before-I think the reason why I do it is because I think that I am stupid for not seeing the kind of person WH has been. And I am thinking that I am even more stupid for still being here and ALLOWING him to continue to jerk me around. I am honestly starting to see what a cruel self absorbed person he is. My conclusion is that I need to be kicked in the a..., I have no one to do it so I have to do it myself.

Hi Jess

Thanks for your support.

One of the things I realized since D Day is that neither one of us is equipped to handle this on our own. WH seems to have taken a while to recognize this. He started posting yesterday and that is only because I demanded it, and even yesterday he got mad cause he said that I was trying to counsel him, but I still insisted. I am not sure if he is aware of the fact that I am just one step away from giving up on the M and just concentrate on healing myself.
The problem with me getting IC is that we live in Central America, there is only one psychiatrist here, she is the only person I would trust to not leak out my business (I have a high profile position). We both started IC but at my last session, I realize that there is a conflict for her based on things she said to me, so I told WH I would rely on MB, but that he needed both MB and IC.

I have been praying so hard for God to continue to stay by my side and help me to get through this but I have gotten so despondent that there are times when I question whether he is still there, but in the end, I KNOW he is so I have to accept that this is not something that I can rush.
I had already been put on AD and had stopped them myself, I will start back today.

This emotion is also normal. You're going to find yourself looking at gwill with a different perspective, and that is borne of being so cruelly hurt by him. The rose tint is gone from your glasses. You'll be scrutinizing him. I think it's a way of protecting yourself.

I think you'll eventually come around to embracing the realization that you did nothing wrong. In the meantime, you need to concentrate on being good to yourself, not punishing yourself.

Now get back on those meds!

MB
Its done!!!!

Glad to hear he is posting, teaser. I will go find his thread.

From what I can see he IS playing games...well past the point it makes "wayward" sense. I have never been convinced that he's gone complete NC with OW (or maybe a with different one--we have established that he is a serial cheater, no?)

The proof will be in the pudding. Let's see what he does now.

Hi

The answer to your question is YES he is a serial cheater. This was the trigger this weekend, I had seen an e mail from a female who wished him luck with his new love. I then said to him, you have been denying that you are/were in love with OW but I see where Sharon was wishing you luck with your new love? his immediate response(tinged with anger, too busy trying to deny love for OW) "how can I tell one woman I am having an affair with that I have a new love? its just not done" BINGO!!! now you have to understand, this is not a current affair, this person lives in NY, so the affair had to have happened before 1991 which is when we moved from NY. So now I am finding out about older affairs, so I am not sure what part of our M was real for me, I am at a loss.

Also he wrote in his post that on D Day I also discovered other inappropriate relationships with other women. This description is really pi..ing me off, he needs to understand that there is no such thing (at least in my book) as inappropriate relationships, for God's sake the ones he was having here, he had been in his vehicle and god knows where else, and they were groping each other, well, for an "impotent" man, that is called SEX, that to me then is what we dumb idiots call an affair. I guess "inappropriate relationship" somehow makes him feel better about the relationship. I am sure he will have a way to explain this away.
By the way he posts under gwilli.

MB
I have a general question.
Has anyone ever come here and posted such a horrible scenario that your advice is there is no hope for the M? and from this I eliminate the obvious like domestic violence, child abuse. I am referring to a situation where when all the facts are taken into consideration, it just seem to have no redeeming qualities.

Or are you all of the opinion that, no matter how bad it is a M can be R?

I will tel you what my opinion is. I do question posters about why they want to attempt a recovery with a certain type of person(serial cheater, etc). I HAVE read some threads of recovery that I COULDN'T believe. I don't know if I would have lived through that. I DO BELIEVE THAT FOLLOWING MB CAN AND DOES SAVE MARRIAGES EVERYDAY. Even DrH himself says that he can not determine which marriages WILL and WON'T survive.

It really IS up to the BS. DrH says that most marriages that end after an affair, are because the BS decides they don't want to try anymore. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen the other way.

teaser,

I would say that we have varying opinions on this. I don't think that there is a single, collective opinion.

We were having this discussion yesterday on a thread that is now locked. Some people se certain situations - such as those involving serial cheaters - as beyond salvaging, and I'm sure you can see why. If someone has had more than one affair, and might even have had affairs throughout the marriage as a way of life, then it is unlikely that NC with the current affair partner, and a plan for recovery will change their behaviour. The serial cheater is unlikely to ever have valued a proper (i.e. faithful, caring, protective) marriage in the way most of us do, and it is unlikely that he or she will see the value in such a marriage - ever.

I have seen many posters advise the BS of a serial cheater to leave. I have seen many posters advise other BS's to end the marriage, also; for example, when the WS does not immediately adhere to NC.

I think this advice is well-intentioned. What would you advise a friend in a serial cheating situation to do? Wouldn't you try to protect her from more hurt?

The BS on the receiving end of this advice should look carefully at the argument, I think. However, if they still want to attempt recovery, there are usually people who will help them.

Some people will stop posting to those in what seem like hopeless situations. Some will continue to post, urging an end to the marriage. Others will express their misgivings but offer advice on NC, spying, EPs and the rest.

There is no party line here, and everybody does their best to help the BS avoid any more pain.

teaser, ANY marriage can be salvaged and and rebuilt into a better one, if BOTH partners follow the program in good faith. Foggy WS's often take some time to get on board, and some never do. That part is entirely up to him. In my case, and many others here, it took many months before our WS's got fully on board. About drove us crazy...

Your H broke the covenant between you. Not once, but many times. It will require a big change of attitude and behavior, over time. Takes many, many months. That's a LOT of change he will have to commit himself to. It will require a tremendous amount of effort (and humility) for him to do this. The question is, is he man enough? Only he knows.

The other half of the equation is you. If he comes through, and you work your side of the street--becoming more the woman he fell in love with all those years ago--you will both have the marriage you wanted in the first place. It's many months of one step forward, one step back...and keeping your eye on the goal. I have never subjected myself to such self-discipline in any other endeavor. But it was all worth it. My marriage is better than it ever was before, and my family is intact. Both of those things mean the world to me.

You will be required to develop more patience and fortitude than you ever thought you could muster. His work will be even harder, if you can imagine that.

Boils down to: How bad do you want it, and are you both willing to really work the program to get it?

That is too tough to answer. Some marriages are damaged so badly that the BS can never get over the resentment. The resentment factor varies from person to person. Some can never get over the resentment, but that is very rare. There is hope if BOTH partners are committed to recovery, however, and just compensation is made.

In the absence of violence, child abuse, etc, I have seen some pretty horrific marriages end up recovered. And by that I mean serial cheating scenarios. As long as there is just compensation, even the worst marriage can be turned around.

Scotland, Righthere and Sugarcane

Thanks for your response.

I am sure that you are more than aware of what I am asking.
Being the BS of a serial cheater, I don't know anything any more. What I thought was my life really wasn't so I don't know what my reality is.
I mean, what yardstick do you use to measure anything? his commitment? hell, I thought he was committed to the M, only to find out now he probably never was.

I feel like someone turned upside down trying to get back on my feet but my world won't settle down to allow me to.

I am bordering on hatred for my WH.
For the first time in my life I don't even know how to make decisions.
I do not trust him even if he told me the sky is blue, so how the heck do we move on from here?

teaser, my suggestion would be to give it a college try for a year and see what happens. You have nothing to lose that way and can always change your mind in the future.

Melody

That is exactly what I have been thinking, but I am wondering if the hatred thing would interfere? do I tell him thats how I am feeling? would that contribute to my rages? I really need for those to stop, I end up feeling so emotionally depleted. I sometimes notice now that I also feel empty. Is that also normal?

Teaser,

When I read the SAA book shortly after D-day #1, I decided to commit to the M for 2 years and then reassess. I am glad I did that because it was a very rocky 2 years.

I was extremely angry and resentful for a long time. When my H finally started to be honest, most of the anger dissipated. Before that, we were in a terrible cycle of: I knew he was lying. He would keep lying. I would blast him verbally. He would cough up a detail. I had proof he had been lying. It was horrendous. I had no idea what our MB coach said to H, but after they talked, he became open and honest and we have been improving every day since.


I recommend the MB program without reservation.
AM

Geez, sister, you're going to be all over the place, emotion-wise. Totally normal.

Yes, you tell him how you're feeling, but you use it as a tool and not a weapon. Sometimes easy to say...

When my rages came on I grabbed a pillow, went into the garage and slammed the sh*t out of it. It was better than hurting myself or my H. When I was done I would talk to H about what emotions I was feeling. The key thing was his patience in listening and being empathetic about the damage he had done to me. We would talk, sometimes cry. Sometimes I'd have to slam the pillow again in mid-discussion, then get back to talking. Consider trying that to see if it helps.

Lord, the time it takes to repair this damage. It won't happen overnight. Hang in there.

MB

Thanks for your input.

I think that I am letting his games get to me, because I get the impression, and I told him this, that he is of the opinion, hey, I have let go of my fog and I have told you so, so why can't you move on.

He still does not get it. But I have to just focus on ME.
Before I left for work this morning I told him, we are about a half a step away from going our separate ways because I will not tolerate his head games any more. I can do bad all by myself.

Teaser - I'm going to bump my Plan B Cafe thread. I think I had it renamed Mental Toughness because some of the shares in that thread were not exclusively for Plan Bers.

You need to develop a plan that doesn't depend on his behavior.

You'll need to get a poly from him. I'm thinking of adding some thoughts and hopefully others will join in with yes/no questions for potential polygraph tests.

Right now, he strikes me as smug self-righteous and arrogant. The good news is that TST/HerPapaBear was just like him a few years ago. So were a couple of other repeat offenders.

He needs humbling and he needs to demonstrate the fruits of true remorse and amends. You'll see what you need to see either way to make a decision about your life.

((((HUGS))))

Hang in there.

Recovery either way you choose is not a smooth ride. That's why I started the Cafe a couple of years ago for just such an occasion.

Can you do this? Write down exactly what he's doing that is unhinging you. You'll probably come up with a fairly lengthy list. Break it down into categories: 1. Actions 2. Words 3.Habits, for example.

Pick a night to give him a few of the items on the list - not the whole elephant. Pick, say, 3 actions/non-actions. Write those down and give those three to him. Let him read them and respond back to you in writing. He may need to sleep on his answers, and that's good. Let him think before he speaks. Ask for a response to your concerns within a certain period of time so he can't blow it off.

Don't let his response anger you. Then it's YOUR turn to sleep on your response.

My point in suggesting this is to encourage both of you to keep your emotions as neutral as possible and realize that this is a repair tool, not an opportunity to bash your WH's real or perceived shortcomings. And writing it down will keep both of you following an agenda, which may help you stay on topic as opposed to flying off the handle.

Then you give him another list. This time pick, oh, 'words'. You give him a list of say, three things he says that really pick you up or make you feel good. Ask him to return a list of three of his own that are about you. This one is to reteach both of you about the things that are 'good' in each other. You're feeling resentful right now, understandably. That's why I think it's good to keep the positives right up there with the negatives so you don't get buried in all of the negative stuff.

Take turns communicating positive and negative things. Your H is likely feeling dumped on right now to the point of not being able to do anything right. I don't blame you for wanting to brain him, but that'll be counter-productive in the long haul.

KWIM?

teaser, stop lambasting him. I know you hate him now, but you are harming your marriage when you unload on him. He is still very entitled and smug but you need to let us work on that.
\
When you speak your hatred out loud you keep yourself riled up and you push him away.

Come here and unload to US idf you have to.

Thanks Army

We have discussed the on line program and I am waiting for his commitment.

I have no problems about doing it, I have recognized from the beginning that this is not something we can do on our own. The situation has only gotten worse with the added discoveries.

Will update you when I have an answer.

Kayla

Thank you so much.

I am willing to give anything a try. Even if not for the sake of my M but for my sake because from where I am standing, I feel like I am the one suffering the most, and matters are complicated by the fact that I keep learning more stuff.
When you add that to everything else, it just gets to be too much. Don't get me wrong, I NEED to know the truth, like I had said before though, I may not know what the truth is but I sure as heck know when someone is not being open and honest. I am absolutely amazed at how quickly that can trigger me. O believe that it is what I see as his arrogance. That arrogance can very well lead to the downfall of this M.
Funny enough, the things that you have said in this post is exactly what I said to WH this morning, thing is I am not sure that when I say them, there is any impact. My patience is running out, its not that I am of the opinion that at 4 months post D Day I should be over this, I know thats not possible, but when I see him playing head games with me, not only is it cruel, it lets me know that his repentance is not where it ought to be and my mind is now saying, run, before he can do any more damage to you. I have moved into self protection mode. Its the only defense mechanism that I have.

MB

Okay, I am going to give your recommendation the old college try.

He generally has a problem with time frames but here goes....

Will keep you updated.

Ok Melody.

I will try, honest to goodness I will try.

The issue this last time was first he admitted to a past relationship, then he tried to back pedal, the admission was upsetting enough, but when he tried to retract it, in my mind he was not only being a liar (and not a good one at that) but to me it is insulting and disrespectful, almost like he thinks that I am stupid and I am not capable of seeing through his pathetic lies. Thats what ticked me off, that after all this time, he is still continuing to do that.
And to make this worse, one of his skanky whores is in town and was actually on TV-like do I need this crap on top of everything else?
I did not tell him myself about the hatred thing, I only posted it here but of course he read it. I am not sorry that I put it out there though because he needs to understand what his behavior has done to me and if he persists with his current behavior pattern, there can only be one outcome.

teaser, when there are couples posting here they are urged in the strongest possible terms to STAY OFF EACH OTHER'S THREADS.

If one or both is not willing to do that - well, that says a lot about their committment to fixing the marriage.

Also, do you know the term "gaslighting"?

Hi Mulan

I looked it up, and you are so right.
I do not look at his thread, when I see that he has had a response, I would go tell him, unfortunately he does not do the same. However, I am sure he will say that he is new here and no one told him he should not look at my post.

Here is a new question for the BSs out there.

How would you feel if when discussing OW with your WH, he proceeds to tell you how pretty he thinks she is?

Is there anyone out there who may agree with me that I should kill him? just kidding-NOT!!

I want to know why he would say that. Would you please ask him to come to his thread and explain why he did that?

Did you directly ask him to describe her looks?

I have just told him, I think he is signing on right now.

Sigh!!!!!

First let me tell you that this is not even the 5 year relationship, but it is one of te As I discovered on D Day. They communicated almost every week by e mail, flirtatious e mails. she actually lives in NY,

She is down here right now and I made a derogatory comment about her, and, well.... the rest is history.

Melody

Just wanted you to know I asked him if he has responded, he says that he is thinking about what to say.

So now he will think long and hard and see how he can explain his way out of this one, when he does this, it usually ends with him saying I misunderstood, or that was not what he was trying to say.
It will be interesting to see how he gets out of this one because one cannot misinterpret the word "pretty"

Well, of course he's being an insensitive clod. Did you ask him how pretty she was? I think all BS's ask. I know I did. I suspect the OW was prettier than me - I've never seen her. And would I have felt better if he'd affaired-down, looks-wise? No.

H has always told me this: "It wasn't the looks, it was the hits (his phrase for the attention/admiration she gave him)."

Mb
You know something? somehow, for whatever reason (which I have yet to analyze) I think I would have felt better if he had said it was just about the sex, but he went to great lengths to let me know that it was NOT all about sex. That hurts like hell.
Listen, deep down I always knew it was not just about sex, but you would think that a WH who claims that he is so sorry for the pain he has inflicted on his BS would go to great lengths not to hurt her more. Of course this does present a dilemma because I want the truth don't I?
But at the end of the day, NONE of the 5 As I found out about on D Day were one night stands so I guess the real answer is that, any A that lasts that long has to be about more than sex, am I right?
He has started posting here, maybe you guys can better answers from him because I sure can't and the thing is, whenever I start asking questions, he gets this attitude that is a put off to any further questions, in the past, this is the tactic that he used when discussing personal issues and I would react by backing down, so nothing would be discussed. Now when he was originall asked about the reason behind his As he said we never talked. So it bounced right back to me, because of course he was incapable of coming to me and say lets talk about our problems.
Now when he gets the attitude, I don't back down, I keep asking, then his attitude escalates, which then triggers my rage. I have never seen someone who has screwed up on so many different levels, get so angry when being questioned. This sense of entitlement to his silence is slowly driving our marriage down the tubes and he appears not to even realize it. I cannot and will not attempt to work on this marriage alone. It takes 2 and right now the ball is squarely in his court.

He sounds like my FWH. His attitude is intended to discourage you from asking questions. It is uncomfortable for WS to own up to their misdeeds. Your H learned this somewhere in his life, and it appears to have worked for him, which is why he does it.

That habit of bullying his way out of owning his sh*t will need to end. When you're trying to communicate and he does that, say "Your attitude is discouraging me from asking questions. You are bullying me and that's unfair. Can we look at my question again without any bullying?" And don't let him sidetrack you by veering things off to a discussion about attitudes. Stay with your question. When he says "Oh yeah?? Well what about all the times you...blah blah blah" you respond with "I understand that's a concern to you, and we'll talk about that. But right now I would like you to give me a straight answer to my question." Then ask the question again. He needs to learn that the question doesn't go away if he cops an attitude.

Caveat: Try not to LB him when his answer isn't something you want to hear. If you want the truth, be prepared to get the truth. It may be ugly. Distance yourself emotionally from it long enough to look at it without AOs. Then thank him for being honest with you.

FWH told me it wasn't about the sex, too. That's a common comment from waywards. They are looking for something emotional, and it escalates to physical. Look at it like this: A's usually start out with flirting, escalate to private meetings, escalate to touching, escalate to declaring they're soul mates, escalate to...see how it typically ends up with the 'ultimate' act? I mean, how many times can one person tell another person that they're 'soul mates' until it starts getting old and a 'bigger bang' is required to get the same emotional rush?

I think it's harder for a BW to hear that there was an emotional component instead of 'just' a sexual one.

MB
The problem is that he has yet to come clean and tell me exactly how it all started. The closest he came was to say that they worked together, got to talking and from there the relationship grew. That is the total extent of his explanation.
I keep asking because, remember, this was a "friend" and the last I knew of their relationship, they both used to complain to me that the other did not like them, so I am asking, how did they get to the point of having a 5 year relationship, who started it? Given the amount of destruction that has occurred, the family relationships that have been severed, I ask him, did you guys talk about the ramifications of your relationship? he says never, I ask, did you guys ever discuss that the relationship should end, he says never, WTH? I can't believe that 2 people who are married and are having an affair. NEVER discuss their spouses/marriage. I do not accept that.
And by the way, whenever my questions get too specific, the answer is "I can't remember"

So MB. I get very few chances to say thank you for being honest with me.
I swear to God at this point I don't see how I will ever be able to trust him again, much less have any respect whatsoever for him.

Shuck and jive, bob and weave, lie and deny.

Be careful! A very close second tequnique is to answer the question by saying something horrible, designed to shock and hurt you, (under the "innocent" guise of the truth) to get you to stop asking the hard questions.

I have lived with this (but not at the level you seem to be, for 4.5 years.)

Pshew! Your H sounds very familiar to me.

teaser - it seems to me you're both flailing around a bit. You need him to be honest, but his honesty hurts. He doesn't want to be honest because he feels punished. He uses words like lambast to describe your discussions.

I know you are experiencing incredible pain and shock. What he says is going to hurt, no two ways about it. If his affairs were ONS and not relationship, then the fact that he threw your relationship away for nothing is hurtful as well. If the girls were ugly, then you'd feel just as bad b/c he was so desperate he'd take an ugly person over you.

There are no un-hurtful answers. They will all hurt. That is why adultery is so ugly.

You need to accept that it will hurt no matter what he says, and he needs to accept that no matter the answer he gives, he will hurt you because he HAS hurt you.

But you also need to control this cycle of pain or it will control you. In order to rebuild you need to be in charge, not the pain.

A recommended tactic is that you limit discussion of the affairs to a set time each week. You write down your questions, and for a set time you ask and he answers questions. Set a timer. When the timer is done you stop. Then give it a week to process. If you have more questions, write them down. Don't bring them up except during the designated time to talk about it. Work during the rest of the week on rebuilding - on spending pleasant UA time together.

Limit and control the process of working through the A's so that it doesn't consume you and drag you down into an inescapable well of despair.

At the end of an honesty session, THANK him for his honesty. His honesty is essential to your recovery and you need to let him know that. He needs to know there is some good that will result from all this pain.

((teaser)) I know this is hard, they say recovery is the HARDEST. You're gonna need incredible strength to get through this, but I think you'll surprise yourself at what you're capable of.

Vibrissa
I will try this for sure.

But please tell me what to do when he DOES NOT give an honest answer?

Cause at the end of the day, that is what has been sending me into a rage.

The last rage episode went like this.

I had repeatedly accused him of being in love with OW (5 year A) and he steadfastly denied it.

So I came across an e mail from a female, who I assumed was a casual friend because there were not too many mails from her, she ended the mail by wishing him luck with his new love.
So I go to him and say, you keep denying to me that you were in love with OW but you told this person that you had a new love? so you admit it to her but not to me at a time when you are supposed to be open and honest; his response? I never told her I had a new love, so I asked, so she is just making that up? his response, no man tells a woman he is having an affair with, that he has a new love. WTF? I said , you were having an affair with her too? so then he tries to back pedal and say, well I did not mean I was having an affair, you are taking it the wrong way.
The reality of this discussion is that it further shows me how distorted my reality has been of my life, because this means he was cheating so far back that I don't know now when he was ever faithful to our marriage.

Thats a hell of a thing to take on. here I was thinking the last ten years was all I had to worry about!

Hey Barbie

Yea, know what you mean.
Unfortunately for him, he is not even good at the bob and weave, thats why we keep getting into fights.

I keep telling him, it is an insult to my intelligence when he tries these tactics, I may not know what the truth is, but I do know when I am being lied to.

I'd avoid arguing. Simply state that you do not believe his answer because his story doesn't line up. Let him know his dishonesty is hurtful to you and impedes your recovery and you refuse to stay in an un-recovered marriage. As he is unwilling to be honest, you will have to end this weeks session. Next week begin where the dishonesty began the week before.

If he truly doesn't know an answer or doesn't remember, that is an acceptable response. If he doesn't remember ask him to think on it over the next week and see if he remembers at the next session.

If you still sense dishonesty, then ask for a polygraph.

You need to be satisfied you know the truth!!! It is essential, but don't be your own worst enemy. You need to adopt behaviors that will HELP you get what you need: truth. This means, as hard as it is, you have to avoid losing control and letting your emotions run you.

You are letting your emotions take control. YOU need to take control. You need to be honest about what you think, feel and believe - but degenerating into fights isn't going to help you. It prevents honesty.

If you are hurt and need to cry - ask him to hold you while you cry if you'd find it comforting. Be very explicit with your needs.

Ok I get what you are saying and I am totally in agreement that my emotions are getting the better of me. I truly know that this is something I have to work on.

Him holding me when I am crying does not work for me, just because I see him as the source of ALL the pain I am going through right now, I feel that he is the last person to give me comfort.

I have to tell you that for someone who has been married for 34 years, I am extremely lonely, I feel unloved, I feel despondent, I have absolutely no sense of intimacy. Isn't that funny? while all this time he has been making others feel good?

Because another problem between us is the fact that he LIED to me telling me that he was impotent when obviously he was not, when I asked him how could he have been having such racy sex with OW (as evidenced by their e mails)when he was supposed to be impotent, his response was "we worked around it" Well that sure as hell made me feel better about myself, I was not even given an opportunity to work around anything.

(((teaser))) I know it hurts. I'm so so sorry.

Stuff like that you discuss during affair-talk time. If him comforting you doesn't help then be clear that after affair-talk time you need some time to yourself to process what you've heard.

Try, try, try to make positive UA time possible. You need to provide him the opportunity to meet your needs. You need to create positive associations with your husband to combat the pain he's put you through.

It will be hard. It will be awkward. It will be painful. But you gotta push through. You two need 20+ hours a week aside from affair-talk time. THAT is what you need to create the intimacy you crave - time together meeting needs.

On top of the time, you need honesty.

So create your plan to foster honesty. Honesty from YOU as well as him. Remember - fighting with him gets you no where. All you need to do is communicate what YOU are thinking and feeling. "That hurts me because ______." "I don't believe you are being truthful." "I need _____ from you right now."

Simple statements of fact. You can't argue about what you think or feel. If he says you shouldn't feel a certain way, politely inform him that is a Disrespectful Judgment and you cannot change the way you feel.

Hey Mb

You guys said that when I felt like ranting I should come here and rant, so here goes.

Looked at my confiscated e mails last night, discovered that another one of WH's whores was brought to my house. I confronted him with the information and he admitted it, of course he tried to tell me he had already told me this (and yes I slipped, rage galore!!!) and of course I told him something like that, I would not forget, so then he went on to say that it only happened once; yeah right, and there is a bridge that I could probably buy cheap, real cheap.

I am FED UP.

How much more of this am I supposed to take?
Where does this end?

You know, if when confronted he had just said, yes and I am so sorry, it would NOT have been ok, but what tripped me over the edge is when he tried as usual to wiggle, bob and weave, by saying he had told me this before, and she did not stay long. WTF?????

(((teaser)))

Remember, rage here, not at him.

I can't remember, have you asked him to do a timeline exercise?

This is where he sits down and details EVERY event he can remember regarding his infidelities and puts them in a chronological order. Dates, times, events, locations.

If he hasn't it may be useful to ask him to do this, then go over it and ask questions and clarify anything unclear. As questions to jog his memory. It will take time to put it all down and his recall may be fuzzy but over time it should all come out.

Then request a polygraph to ensure you got it all.

Going back and forth "I said so" "No you didn't" is unproductive.

Get it ALL out at once.

If you'd like, I'd suggest putting a shoutout to Schoolbus who works with memory recall and see if she can suggest any tips.

Hi
No I never asked him about the timeline thing.

I will ask him tonight.
Unfortunately, we do not live in the US so they do not do polygraphs here. Its a pity huh?

Teaser:

You may want to stop by my thread: CGIR's Wife: 30 Years of Lies and Trickle Truth.

CGIR is working on a timeline for me. I know some of the information.

I had no idea.

BrokenVase

Teaser:

I left a reply for you on my thread!

BrokenVase

Thanks BV

So here is the latest; there was an affair that I discovered and wrote about 9/22 at 11;08. He had confessed then tried to back pedal which at the time sent me into a rage. Well he then told me it was nothing serious and that much of it was just groping in the car.

Well, last night he confessed the whole thing, co-worker, they used to go to a motel, etc etc etc

I think I want out. This is doing my sanity no good.
I am feeling so low today that I want to put an end to all this pain.

This man does not love me, and he is being cruel to me in the way he is handing out his information.

I really and truly can't take this any more.

My self esteem is at an all time low.
Was I ever happy? can one be truly happy if the foundation on which they have built their happiness is nothing more than an illusion? i don't think so.

I am drained, I have no fight left in me anymore.

You must know that he is 100% into this. That he wants this M back with all his heart.
If you doubt this then yes, given his history I would move on, and you have every right to do so.
Blessing

Teaser,
Look, your husband did something very hurtful and selfish for a long period of time in your marriage........
I would if I were you stop getting the details of what happened and just know that it was bad and disrespectful....the facts will just keep you in a place that is unhealthy for you........
You know it was hurtful and disrespectful and that he is the kind of man that will make decisions where your best interests aren't considered........
I know what you mean about the self esteem thing, I also think this might be the toughest thing for us to deal with, but really it had nothing to do with us, the decisions your husband made were all about him and his selfishness.......and the kind of person he is capable of being...........
It's hard for us to believe that the man we loved and devoted ourselves to could be this person we don't even know anymore........I think it's easier for us to think it must have been something we did wrong or how me must not have been good enough in some way.........All that is bull****, we are good people that didn't deserve all this to happen to our lives........no one deserves this........
What you believed in is gone for me as well.......but we have ourselves and our futures to believe in, no matter if they are with us or not.......
We did nothing wrong ...............
Start from today with your life, forget about getting anymore info that is hurtful, accept that what your husband did was painful and his choice......
If you want to work things out with him, you have to decide to focus only on today and tomorrow and accept the past and let it go.........
Understand that this choice is for you, understand that you are making this choice for you and the reason you are making the choice to let it all go.....
This is hard for you but a must for your survival........don't let him the affairs take anymore of you away.........you have to take you back even though you are living through hell right now............
(((hugs)))))

Right at this moment I am not even capable of a cohesive thought.

I guess one of the things that is paralyzing me right now is just how far back the cheating goes. It makes a mockery of a big part of my life.

I am just not sure what is real and what is not anymore.

The enormity of this is becoming overwhelming.

This is even worse than D DAY, and I thought it could not get any worse.

I feel like running to the lawyer's office and just say file the papers, because I am thinking that step is the first to taking back control over my life and me.

Sorry to ask you this and you do not have to answer. But your WH is 59...after all the A's he had, is he still able to have an erection and satisfy you sexually? It seems to me that a man that age and with many many sexual encounters must have made himself pretty dry or must have had sexual problems all along.
You do deserve better than this guy, and if you want to R the M you really have to make sure you concentrate only on the NOW and not on what happened before.
blessing

teaser, please don't make a decision in the throes of this agony. If you must disconnect, Plan B. Making decisions based on emotion never work well.

Have you requested he do the timeline exercise?

It may be time for you to start Planning a Plan B. You cannot recover if he keeps lying to you. Why is he no longer posting here? Do you know?

Atena

Thats an excellent question.

Over 10 years ago he told me he was impotent. I thought that the reason for this was his diabetes as he is insulin dependent. Because I thought that the issue was the diabetes, I felt really bad for him and so I decided that I would give up my own sex life in the interest of not hurting his manhood.

This is one of the reasons why I was blind sided by his affairs-because I was under the impression that men who have this type of problem are not likely to have affairs but instead would go to prostitutes. This has been one of the major issues post D Day, cause when I asked him about sex with OW and his problem his response was "we worked around it". That sent me into a rage cause I thought, damn, I didn't even know that there was something to work around, and my next thought was, OMG I was not even given a chance to work around "it".

So really, what does that say about me? that I clearly don't have what it takes to turn a man on-thats my conclusion.
He has started posting here and when referring to SF with me, he says his mind is not there, so I had to ask him, when you were servicing OW, did you have to have an erection to do it? he said no. So then, I guess the problem is me. To put it bluntly, he says that he is unable to sustain an appropriate erection to perform conventional sex, so his sex life is limited to oral sex.

Of course, what is now coming to my mind is that perhaps the problem with the erection may have nothing to do with his diabetes but more with his lifestyle.

Much as he has said that he is trying to R the M, he just has not been able to get it up for me on any level.
I just don't move him in that way!!!

Vibrissa

I have no idea why he is not posting here anymore. I can ask him to come back on board if you want me to.

I am sorry but right now I am just feeling so low, it is really really dark where I am right now.

I never thought that there was any lower to go. guess I am finding out differently.

Teaser, right now you have nothing to hold on to except yourself, your husband has a lot of problems that don't have anything to do with you......
He has lead himself away from you and your marriage and he has probably had to disconnect from you in order to pull off all what he did.......that's his problem not yours........he had to justify somehow.........
If he thought about you the right way then he wouldn't be having the problem he is having sexually with you. This has nothing to do with your ability to do anything......his problem......
Until that changes for him the intimacy for the two of you can't change, it isn't all about the act, it's the closeness you feel for someone else.........therapy could help him........
You want to run I can see that Teaser, but slow down, is this really what you want or do you just think it will be easier, I can relate I have mutiple things going on at the same time that just make me want to run.......but being alone dealing with everything is not going to help me or you......working through a tough road is what will help us both.......have faith in you Teaser...........if you want to love your husband, do it. don't feel bad about it.........you said your husband wants to work on recovery let him, it's a slow road to fix what has happened, don't worry about the sex part for now, work on the relationship part, when that is better I think you will see the other part will fix itself.......
feel free to pm me anytime you want to vent.......

Hi Vibrissa

You asked me a question (well maybe a couple) that I did not answer.

First, I did ask him to do the timeline, he did not really write anything down and last time he spoke. oh for maybe about 10-15 minutes, yea, that covered about a5 years of marriage. The end result? he said nothing, absolutely nothing he had not said before. So I am in no better a position than I was before.

The next question you asked was why is he not posting here anymore? I don't think he can handle the truth, he wants to be mollycoddled, he generally has what I call pity party when things are not going the way he feels they should.
So given the things that have transpired, I believe that he feels that although he has been wrong, there is no need for me to react the way I do and it is my fault we are not making real progress.

The timeline isn't done in 10-15 minutes. It is a fully thought out exercise that takes time and consideration. It fully details EVERYTHING about the affairs chronologically, even stuff you already know.

Honestly teaser, I got the impression he doesn't want to do the hard work recovery takes, that's why he isn't posting here anymore. Those that get it, those that want to fix it, stay here and work, battering their heads against the vets.

You are not to blame for the lack of progress if your husband wont actively HELP you.

He is still wayward.

Not actively cheating, but wayward. He's still hiding things, wanting to play 'sweep it under the carpet' and wanting you to, in essence, 'get over it' so you can recover.

Recovery isn't about getting over, it's about pushing through. You can't push alone.

Plan B might be a good route for you to consider now.

Dear Teaser:

As you know, CGIR and I are working on a timeline - we expect that it will take weeks or months to get through.

If your husband really wants to make your marriage work, maybe he would like to post to CGIR; CGIR could share his apprehensions/fears (both imagined and real) about telling me the truth about his affairs and giving me the depth and breadth of detail I need. He could also comment about the changes he saw in me as I began to get accurate information.

Obviously, we are still a "work in progress" and I don't yet know what the outcome will be. Regardless of how accurate I feel the timeline is, we will still summarize with a polygraph; if CGIR refuses at that time or fails, our marriage will end.

But, I think CGIR is beginning to see that telling the truth hasn't caused the world to end and that it's more satisfying to have a real relationship than one based on lies. Will CGIR be open and honest with me going forward, especially about his thoughts and feelings? Only time will tell. But maybe gwill would benefit by talking to someone who's on the same long journey but a few steps ahead.

BrokenVase

Jessi

Thank you so much for your kind words.

I am feeling so out of sorts today, I am amazed. I thought that D Day was the absolute worse day and yet, here I am, I guess all the crap is just building and it will explode, I know this for sure.

Yes, I want to run, as far away as I could. I even contemplated packing a bag and just disappearing, not telling anyone where I was going.
How do I pm you?

Obviously, each person is different, but I was COMPLETELY unable to do this. I considered this point of view and tried hard to do it, too. The gaslighting and additional lies that CGIR needed to tell to support his fiction were destroying me.

Additionally, if your husband is unable to tell you the truth about the past, how will he be able to tell you the truth about the future? He will need to fabricate new information to maintain the old, and with these barriers between you, old lies and new, you will never be able to have an intimate relationship.

If, however, you decide that you really don't want the details AND your husband is willing to tell them to you, I recommend that he write everything down, seal the document and put it away, in case you ever want it in the future. At that time, you can either go through the information together, or you can choose to destroy it.

I will say it's been challenging for CGIR and I to get through some events in our timeline; in the case of his first affair, 21 years have gone by, and some of the finer details I would like have been blurred, compiled or lost with time. (I believe CGIR with this, as I was struggling to accurately remember some details about my affairs, which happened 27 and 17 years ago, respectively).

BrokenVase

And one last thing, that made a lot of sense to me, from "31 Reasons to Stop An Affair" (Reynolds, 2004):

Affairs result in less intimacy, not more.

Most people who are involved in an affair claim it is easier to be intimate with their affair partner than with their mate, but in reality it�s a comparison of apples and oranges. Intimacy is the ability to be totally transparent� to be known fully by another. In Genesis 2:25, the closing verse states, "the two were naked and they felt no shame." This is a great definition of intimacy, for it is about man and woman being able to fully share all of who they are � their dreams, their hopes, their fears, their love, and their positives as well as their negatives.The intimacy experienced outside a marital relationship, however, is different than intimacy in a marriage.The intimacy of an affair or of a couple dating is an �other�s validated intimacy.� In those relationships, as one begins to reveal themself to another, they are almost always rewarded by the other person revealing certain aspects of their life in return.They are literally validated for their attempts at intimacy and the result is a newfound feeling of closeness, and of finally being understood by another. Even as one shares the worse parts of him or herself, the other person generally will respond by validating them or by sharing the worse parts of who they are. In a relationship based on validation, partners feel it is safe to share what they think and what's important because they agree on almost all of the important issues and even if they can't agree, they are at least able to come to a point where they can agree to disagree without much effort. Outside of a marriage, it is easier to embrace differences.

Marriage, however, radically changes the dynamic. Once we cross into a marital relationship there is a paradigm shift. Now, instead of two individuals searching for the ways their differences complement one another, they feel the pressure to become one. Most married people begin to define the quality of their relationship with their ability to be on the same page, to agree on issues, to see things the same way, and to be who their mate needs them to be.When there is a difference, instead of it drawing a couple closer, it creates
tension and pushes them apart. It is in this paradigm that intimacy takes an interesting twist, for instead of creating closeness and validation, it now creates short-term instability. Each time someone reveals who they are, if it is different than their mate believes them to be, it creates a tension. Each time they disagree on an important issue, they are threatened and afraid they will never have life the way they wanted it to be. Inside marriage, intimacy becomes self-validated, and it takes integrity and personal strength to share fully who you are, to be authentic even when the other may not approve. For example, I've always believed the most intimate thing a person can do in their marriage is to share with their mate they are having an affair. With that statement, you are exposing yourself, revealing something they may not know (and most likely will not be happy about), but at the same time, you are exercising the integrity to be real. Paradoxically, intimacy in marriage generally does not create immediate closeness. However, in the long run, it can lead to growth, maturity, love, true intimacy, and a strong connection.

As you can see, intimacy in the marriage differs from that in an affair.Validated intimacy is easy and carries little or no risk, but intimacy in a marriage requires integrity, while providing the soil for personal and marital growth. Marriage becomes the place where a person develops character and personal strength.The intimacy of an affair isn't intimacy at all; it's just the longings of two individuals caught up in romanticism and infatuation. True intimacy can never be experienced until the paradigm of two being one is set in place by a marriage; then, and only then, can a person begin experiencing true intimacy.

BrokenVase

teaser - I understand Jessi's advice, however, you aren't wrong for wanting details. You want to know the true story of your life.

If you haven't read this, maybe it will help. Perhaps you can print it and give it to your husband:

Joseph's Letter:
To Whomever,
I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn�t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn�t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I�m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you�re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn�t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don�t have.

Now let�s enter my reality. Let�s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don�t worry about it, it�s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don�t worry about it, it�s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what�s the difference, it�s not important.

Then later when I�m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can�t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don�t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn�t come from jealousy, it doesn�t come from spitefulness, and it doesn�t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn�t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn�t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can�t and the reason I can�t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

BV

I am definitely not the ostrich type, I can't just say I don't want to know. For some sick reason I NEED to know. Especially when you are now distorting my reality.
Simply because he is willing to work on the M does not negate my need for information. God knows, I wish I could stop asking, because I am the only person who is being hurt by this info.

I contacted this OW on FB and asked her if she would answer a few questions for me. She immediately wrote to WH to ask him to call her, I guess that is so that they could get their stories straight. So now I no longer want to talk to her, her truth would be too contrived.

I feel so stupid, getting worked up over an A that happened some 20 years ago, but the problem is, I have only just found out.

I wish that when I had the opportunity, I'd had an A, maybe I would understand things a whole lot better but I don't. I just don't.

I feel like I have sacrificed a great deal of my life for my WH, and the thanks I get was that he was out there having a grand ole time sleeping around while I was so piously sacrificing my needs in order to secure his manhood.

The worst part? he never asked me to. Hows that for a good laugh!!!

BV

All I can say is wow.

I will be reading your post a couple of times.
I am also e mailing it to WH.

One of the things I am feeling right now is that WH says he wants to work on the M, but to date I have been more pro-active.

This is all going to stop. It takes 2 to make a marriage work, he has already done all that he can to break it up, he now needs to invest the same, if not more energy into fixing things.

Thanks again.

This has been an awful awful gloomy day, the light that may have been at the end of my tunnel is no longer there.

Vibrissa

Thank you.

I could not have put it better myself.
I have already sent it to WH.

You guys have been a tremendous support for me, especially when I needed it so badly today, needless to say I did not go to work today.
Hoping tomorrow will be a little better.

((teaser))

It will get better.

With or without your husband, it WILL get better.

Stick to your plan, come here to vent.

We're here for you, hon.

Thanks to all of you.

MB has become such a crutch for me, its good to know that you guys are here.

Teaser,
It's all a process, I remember trying to make sense of everything I was feeling and how my whole world seemed like it was gone......
I asked for all the details of the affair as well, but I think we all get to a point of knowing the facts and not being able to change them and trying to live with the truth.......to much is not good for our health and our sanity .........I think it's a situation that doesn't have any answers that we can accept.....I think it's tough feeling like we had no control over what happened, our lives are destroyed by someone else's decisions......
I'm a fixer by nature and I have had to let go of the fact that the history can't be fixed or changed, I have to accept that it for what it was and let it die in the past.......
It is painful at first and you feel like you are going crazy and that there is nothing left for you but as time passes Teaser you will see things more clearly and you will be able to make some sound decisions for yourself and your marriage......
Be totally honest right now with your husband if you need him to do something to make you more comfortable ask for it, explain your feelings to him.....
This is your chance to get the marriage you want........if that is what you chose.....
No more of the same......

I think that.........I can't ask for what I want. Thats what the problem is, I can't ask cause I know he can't give it.

I know this makes no sense-but its my reality.

MB

Please tell me if I am crazy.

I read an e mail from a friend (who turned to be one of WH's OW) where she ended the e mail saying "good luck with your new love".

We are in the middle of a disagreement on the inference I got from that.

So I am putting the question to all of you, what do you infer from that statement?

Dear Teaser:

I'm spending the evening with CGIR, so a short post.

What I learned is that the truth makes sense.

If a story does not make sense, it is not the truth. It is either a lie, or you are missing important information.

When CGIR told me he put 110 miles on his car doing household errands and looking for a McDonald's restaurant in the town where I now work (which is less than 5 miles from our house), it didn't make sense.

That's because it was a lie; he was headed to OW's home to have sex with her.

Later, when he told me he never arrived and that he turned around because he knew having sex with her would end our relationship, it didn't make sense.

Finally, when he told me he turned around because he was afraid OW would turn him down (the last time they were together, she told him to stop), that made sense.

It made sense because it is the truth.

The truth ALWAYS makes sense.

You need more information to make that e-mail make sense.

BrokenVase

Hey BV

I told him that if someone wishes you luck with your new love,then I have to infer that he had told her he had a new love, he says he did not.

Teaser,
I think part of the problem for me was in finding out about my husband's affair was that he was doing this because he wanted to, I guess I could never get my head wrapped around the part that he kept saying that he wasn't in love with me and this is why he could even have an affair......different places, he out of love because of the marriage breakdown, me still in love and hopeful for sorting out the marital problems......for me his way of thinking just wasn't a reality........trying to accept what they do and how things progressed to the place that they did is hard to understand.......try to make sense of it all is a no win siutation......
It is what it is and that is a burden for us, we have a choice what we do with that, I see it as we have 3 choices, 1 remove what is making us feel that burden(husband) 2 do nothing and just live with things......3 deciding that we want to move forward, forget the past and only focus on the now and the future....and understand this choice is one we are chosing for us.........all the figuring out and looking at the facts and details won't change anything.....
You have control over your future and you need to decide how you want to live that future, stay where you are, let it destroy you or take control and move to a healthier place for you....
I know it's a tough place to be and being strong with in you is the key, what happens in the marriage time will only tell. Don't make any decisions until you are emotionally equipped to do so.......

Hey Jessi

I understand everything that you have said.

Heres the thing, I think that the issue for me is that I am almost positive that FORGETTING the past is not an option.

I have just found out that WH has been cheating for 30 years!!!! this is a new D day for me, here I thought that he had only been stepping out for the last ten or 15 years. For me this is huge-hell, this is a time when I thought that we were happy, you don't get to screw with my reality and then I say, ok forget it (even after a few years) we will move on. That is out of the question.

The absolute only hope for this marriage to remain intact is if I can find a way of understanding what has happened and find some way to be able to live with it.
WH once told me that he wants us to get back to the marriage we originally had-I don't know if it is contrary to MB principles for me to say this, but I do not believe that it is possible for us to be the way we were when we first got married. He is not the man I thought he was the day I married him, cause I damn sure I did not think I was marrying someone who was capable of doing all the things he has ultimately done.
Further, as a result of what he has done to me, I too am forced to change in order to deal with all this. So, from my vantage point, we are now 2 different people.

The real question then becomes, whether, knowing who he really is and what he is capable of, he is now someone I can move forward with.

For damn sure, I know he has not been meeting my needs. Has not done so for quite some time, unfortunately, I did not take the easy way out like he did and go outside to address my needs.

Had a talk with WH, interesting conversation.
Problem with his relationship with me is that there was too much static, when asked where did the static come from his reply was he felt that he was jockeying with me for the position of who wears the pants in the family.

Now, I need for MB seniors to tell me whether there is any real hope.

As he was talking (his attempt at open and honest) I felt dead inside, I barely asked any questions. I don't care any more.
Here is a man whose manhood is so fragile, I can't strengthen that nor am I willing to try at this point, thats his problem that somehow I got punished for.

This secret life that I have just discovered is leaving me too sore.
He tells me he will not move out, I will have to put him out-will start working on that with respect to the timing.

Please tell me if I am abdicating any responsibility in all this.
He needs help and I am afraid that the fact that I am a victim of his spineless, pathetic personality, leaves me out of the equation.

teaser,

I posted at length to your WH on his thread. He basically ignored me. I figured that's because he has heard what I had to say

because

you have said exactly what I have said - in your own words - over and over and over

anyway.


His basic desire is that his point of view should be validated. Here is what he wants:

1. He wants you to sweep the problems under the rug.
2. He wants you to forgive and mainly FORGET.
3. He wants you to stop asking these probing questions, because the answers require him to tell you things that "might hurt you". Translation: the answers require him to admit stuff that embarrasses and shames him, and reveals the depths of the crap he has been doing for YEARS and doesn't want you to know about.
4. He wants to be able to continue to gaslight you, which has worked for so very long (FOR HIM), and this whole d-day thing really has messed up his lifestyle, thank you very much.
5. He wants you to settle down, for things to go back to "normal", so he can go back to his usual stuff. You are interfering with this, by the way. So CALM DOWN, and get to it quickly, please.
6. He stopped posting because he realized that he has no argument for the truth. And the truth is quite annoying to him, because somehow


it has gotten you to wake up

realize all of his garbage and gaslighting

and he stands to lose everything


and he can no longer carry on as he has been.


Not only that, he doesn't see a way out - and his wall of lies isn't doing it for him either, and as as long as you stay here, he doesn't stand a chance unless he caves in.


The issue you now face?

How long before you go to Plan B.

Because he is stuck stuck stuck in his firm belief that the lies will be his only defense. He has no intent to change at this point. CGIR is moving in the right direction. gwill, on the other hand, doesn't see the point. He still has a wayward mindset, and I personally don't see any cracks forming.

So, how long before the Plan B?


SB

BTW,

Do you have any confirmation that he is NO CONTACT with other women? Because he still smells to me. The lying has gone on for too long....

and that other love comment

smells a LOT.

teaser,

after reading your comments on BV's thread,

you need to go to PB now. your love is on the downward trend right now, and you are risking this marriage. you speak of indifference

and that is the opposite of love.

Do something to get to plan B now.

SB

I have no proof that he is no longer in contact with other women.
Unfortunately, with technology the way it is today, there is no way of keeping absolute tabs, he works, he has a computer there that I have no control over, and frankly, at this point, I am no longer interested.

Plan B? I think that would have been great if I were interested in saving the M, I am not.

I am right now only interested in putting an end to this farce of a life that I have been living. I have said this before, I do not operate a revolving door, once he is gone, he stays gone. This is the reason I have taken so long to make a decision, because I wanted it to be that any decision would be a well thought out one, not one based on anger.

Right now I am just dead inside, oh, make no mistake, I am hurting but the pain is despair at a life lost.

Teaser,

I read what you wrote on BV's thread about wanting a revenge affair. If you are in any way really considering it, please dont do it. I cant begin to imagine the pain you are in, my story is similar but only on a two year scale. I cant begin to image dealing with the lose of thirty of years.

I actually had a revenge affair, for many of the reasons you listed. It doesnt help. It will only make you feel worse. If you died tomorrow you would still have your dignity, your integrity, and you will still have lived a life or courage and conviction. Nothing your H has done to you can take that from you. If you do to him what he did to you then you will have lost those things, just like I did. It wont take away your pain, or give you back the lost years. Let go of the M if you feel that is what is right for you, but hold on to your principals, you will feel better if you do. There is nothing to be gained by having a revenge affair except more pain and shame, and so much to be lost.

The only thing I have left is to be able to use my story as an example of what NOT to do, and hope that I can help others to avoid making my mistakes.

Hi Rising

Thanks for sharing.
I don't know that I would actually Do it. But I certainly understand why other people have done it. This kind of betrayal leaves feeling like nothing.

To the outside world I give the appearance of being a reasonably attractive, strong educated woman. On the inside, I feel like a nothing. I am angry at myself for loving and trusting a POS who apparently was never deserving of anything from me. I am angry at myself for not having seen all this a long time ago.
I am angry for not picking a better father for my DD-so I feel that I have failed her there. I can't make up for that other than by continuing to be the best parent I can possibly be. Because all along, WH was sabotaging the parent child relationship, this is not something that I just now realize, I called him out on it back then too. And now to find out all the other crappy things about him makes me feel like I have to go into some deep deep IC. I am not even sure that the help I need can be accessed here where I live. Which leaves me where? I don't know.

Everything is feeling so utterly hopeless right now, all I can do is just plain give up.

It does make you feel like nothing, less than nothing. You feel small smaller smallest until everything you thought you knew or thought you were just diappears under a wall of pain and anger.

Get whatever help you can where you live, and post here where people who understand your pain can help you. My H did the trickle truth, and was a horriible gaslighter. I had some not quite healed self esteem issues, but mostly I was at one point a happy strong and confident woman. He picked at the issues until I just a mess. He blamed everything on the way my body looked, told me it was the things that having children had done to me that made me not as attractive as the OW's, and told me all this while I was pregnant with my DD. At one point I was seriously considering cutting off body parts. I was pretty sure I would bleed to death, but at least the offending parts would be gone.

I've been to that place where you feel like there is nothing left, you have lost all hope. It gets better with time, maybe it will be with your H someday, or maybe it will just be a personal healing, but it will get better. Do something good for yourself, and practice good self-care. Take a walk, take a drive, anything. Just make sure that it is something you enjoy, and will help to soothe you.

I understand your desire to walk out on the M, I think that you should think about what schoolbus said about plan B. Thirty years is a big investment, and if you protect whats left of your love for your H, your feelings on saving the M may change once the intial pain and anger have faded a bit.

The problem right now is that I am not feeling any love at all for him, and I am afraid that this is not temporary.

You see, maybe if I had known all along about the affairs, or even suspected, I may be approaching things differently.
But on D Day I discovered 5 As, which seemed to have dated back to 2002 one of which was with a friend, and went on for 5 years. So now, while I am trying to wrap my mind around that, I find out that his first A was when we were 4-5 years into the marriage, a time when I thought that we were at our happiest. Hell, we were trying very hard to conceive then eventually adopted.

This has all thrown me into a tailspin. Thirty years was a big investment for ME, but what I am realizing now is that I am the only one that truly invested 30 years. WH invested 4-5 years then started having his needs met outside.
He was not meeting my needs, but for some of those needs, I made excuses for him, only to find out that the last laugh was on me because while I was making excuses for him and sabotaging myself in the process, he was thoroughly enjoying himself on the outside, then coming home to a comfortable place. This is what I call having one's cake and eating it too.

I don't think that even at this point my WH really wants to be with me, I think he does not want to be the one to make the decision to leave so that he can always say, I was willing to stay for the long haul she is the one that insisted that I leave.

I DONT'T THINK THAT HE IS BEING HONEST.

At first I thought that I would wait him out and let him make the decision but you know something? I am the only one punishing from this.

So I think that in the final analysis, I will do him this one last favor and make the decision that he apparently does not have the backbone to make.

Teaser,

First of all - . As someone who was in a long term M (36 years) I can truly undertand where you are. My situation was very similar to yours.

I am now D'd. My XWH was also a gaslighter, trickle truth teller, not totally committed etc. After 9 months of it, I went into Plan B but not before I blew and did a big huge FU. That was not one of my finest moments and I do regret that I lost control.

I did not want a D, but it got to the point where I realized that I was never going to know the true extent of what my XWH did, and honestly, I felt like an outsider in my own M. There were three of us at the time, and I was the odd man out. I hated knowing that OW had more info on me and my life than I did. Looking back, I'm not sure that I would have had the strength to recover. I just don't think I have it in me. The depth of the betrayal was just too deep for me to overcome. I know it would have been long and painful recovery, and XWH would have been a project with many overruns.

Should you decide to end this M, that will be painful too. You may not feel anything right now, but you will go through ups and downs like you wouldn't believe so be prepared for that. The destruction will be all around you. Family, personal, financial, emotional, physical, you name it, it will be there and you'll have to deal with all of it.

Only you can decide whether or not you can do this. Think long and hard before making a decision. There have been many days where I wish that I would have tried harder, but then I remember that I did try - he really didn't.

You have to remember that your WH has developed a certain lifestyle over the last 30 years, and it has obviously been one that has worked quite well for him, but now you are asking that he change it overnight. It isn't going to be easy, even if he really wants to. It's not to say that you should put up with his cr@p any longer though.

I agree with the others in that Plan B is in order for you. This man is draining the life right out of you and you need to save yourself right now. Your job has to be suffering. I remember days when I couldn't get out of bed. Fortunately at the time I owned my own business, but it still suffered.

Your life has had no truth in in for 30 years . In Plan B, it will have truth because only YOU control you. Your life will be what you want it to be. If your WH decides to get his head out of the horse's sphincter, you can make a decision then. Set the bar high.

I am sorry that you age going through this....

CL

Thanks for your response.

I am so sorry for all that you went through and for how it ended.

I told WH Friday evening of my decision. He apparently did not take me serious.
I told DD this morning, then I gave to phone to him.
He just told me that he was not able to have a conversation with her because she was crying so much.
He says that even though I said it, he had not believed it; he could not finish the conversation, he is in the bathroom right now.

Just making the decision has been painful; but I somehow think that WH has no clue as to the extent of the damage he has done to me, his behavior continues to be singular and I cannot and will not put up with it, I have got to maintain some level of self respect otherwise, the abuse he has inflicted on me over the years continue.

He is incapable of making me feel loved and cherished and I can only believe that the reason for that is that he just does not care enough.

I explained to him that when I look back at his interaction with OW and saw how happy he was, so relaxed, it hurts me to see how uncomfortable he is with me, the person that stuck by him trough thick and thin. And trust me, there has been lots of it.

But CL, I am not one who will ignore advice when it is given so I am promising you now that I will think long and hard about the recommendation of all of you.

I will let you know my decision.

Here is a question for those of you out there.

Why is it that when a BS a female, contacts the OW's H, he every shortly thereafter don't want any more contact with BS? is this a gender issue?
I ask because from reading other posts, I very rarely see where the a male BS who contacts the OM's wife posts that the OM's w longer wants to hear from him.

What is the psychology behind this? pride?

Not true. The OMGF does not want to hear from me at all. Though, she was mainly angry at me waiting so long after discovery to tell her.

HHH

OK, first of all I can see why she would have been angry at you for waiting so long to expose, but let me ask you this, is she still with OM?

Teaser,

I think some people just don't want to deal with this, it's just so much easier to sweep it all under the rug, don't let this bother you one bit. Let him build all this resentment till he finds another wife that he wont trust because of his previous wife did to him.

You are doing exactly what you should be doing, focus on you and only you.

Hey Sapphire

I agree with you with the sweeping it under the rug. I guess I was just curious that it seems to me like, more often than not, it is the OW's H and not OM's W that wants to sever ties with the betrayed spouse.
I know that in my case I think that OWH is not pleased with me because I exposed some pictures she took in my kitchen to the ver people I expoxed the A to. He told me that exposing the pictures only serves to bring shame on he and I. WTF? I told him I absolutely feel no shame for the crap that wh and his W did. They own that all by themselves. I want people to know that depths that they both sunk to!!!!

Good for you for standing your ground on what the OWH said about shame on you and him. You are 100% correct, you should not feel shame on what they have done! It is all them!

teaser,

First, I want to reinforce to you that you have EVERY RIGHT to divorce your husband for what he has done to you. Let no one tell you anything different! Your WH has also done little to help with recovery for six months, and the truth is that he doesn't appear to understand that the truth might have helped.

Long term affairs, and serial cheating does not bode well for recovery - then, on top of that, you have a WH who has chosen to avoid truth-telling or recovery efforts in an honest and forthright way. You did not make your decision in haste. And it is YOUR DECISION to make.

I want to say some things to you, and the reality is that these things are fact whether you choose divorce or recovery of the marriage.

1. The affairs your husband had are not, and never were, about YOU. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will regain your footing. The affairs were about your HUSBAND. They were not about the OW, either. Just about your husband - he is a man who has issues regarding his ability to have an open and honest relationship with one woman, he cannot communicate his needs and desires in an adult manner, he cannot protect the boundaries of his marital relationship, he gives into base desires that he knows are outside the bounds of simple morals and general societal expectations, and he is comfortable with blameshifting to attempt to justify his bad decisions and behavior. None of these things are about YOU, or the OTHER WOMEN. Not one of these things.

2. You do not acquire your self-esteem from any outside source.

This means that although your self-esteem has taken a blow from the discovery of the affair, your self-evaluation process should focus on YOU, and not on how your husband's treatment of you makes you "feel". This is an important distinction! Your husband treated you badly - but this does not mean that YOU DESERVED IT, nor does it mean that YOU are a bad person. It means only that someone treated you badly, and as a result you FEEL pain. Try to keep these separated, because it is easy to confuse your sense of self-esteem with your sense of pain and devastation over the loss of the marriage and the deception you have been delivered. YOU did not perpetrate the crime - your dignity and character is INTACT.

3. The time that you spent being lied to is not time wasted, or being anything "less than" in life. Your efforts during the marriage remain POSITIVE - to your child, and actually toward the relationship itself. You made legitimate contributions throughout the marriage, your efforts were positive, and they do and DID matter. Your husband's bad behavior, his lies, and his affairs do NOT negate what you did. Your husband's behavior taints ONLY his own stuff - never yours. YOU LIVED A REAL LIFE, OF TRUTH. His lies don't erase your truth. That's the good thing about truth - it exists on its own, it stands as a free entity. Your husband can say whatever he wants - but the truth stands there for all to see. You were a good wife and mother. His lies can never change that.

4. There is a future for you. Just as any event in our lives that shakes us, discovery of an affair causes an earthquake of change. From this, we learned the ugly side of our marriage, and we were forced into making decisions, evaluations of ourselves and our lives, an in-depth review of our marriage, and we had to make changes in ourselves that we might not have wanted to make or even face.

All of this - yet - there is a future. We take the learning, the pain, and the hope for whatever tomorrow brings with us.

5. You do not have to forgive anything. Some day, when you think about it, you might be ready. You will know, for yourself, when that time comes. Trust me, you will know if and when it is right - FOR YOU.

6. In all of this, the timeline for recovery seems to follow a fairly predictable pattern. Whether you stay in the marriage or divorce, it seems to follow along. Stay here, read, and post with us. You need the help, and the friends you gain along the way will get you through. That way, even when you think you aren't "normal", you will know YOU ARE.



Finally, I'm sorry that you had to be here at all. But I'm also glad that you came, because you worked through what you had to figure out, for yourself. You will find peace in your decision, because it will not be hasty, and you will have information to make it with.


Hang in there.

Schoolbus