Marriage Builders
Posted By: jal7788 I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:03 PM
Thank the good Lord for this forum and Dr. Haley's resources.
I stumbled upon it after going through the worst month of my life (August 2010). Let me tell you my story and please offer your wisdom. Thankfully the good Lord has offered me much hope and wisdom through His Word and prayer but dang it! It still hurts! I know that I must forgive but I'm angry! Reading some of the posts here, I should consider myself very fortunate (and I do) as I read some of the heart breaking stories.

I'm 53 and my WW 48. We've been married 19 years and have 3 DD,17,14 and 9. Life has had it's ups and downs and I thought we had a "good" marriage. Boy, was I in for a shock! My wife had made plans to go to her sister's wedding on her own out of state. It was kind of a family reunion so I had no problem with it.

The week before she flew out, she went out with a female friend to a club. I've never been happy with that situation of her going to clubs but I've always trusted her so I keep my feelings regarding that to myself. That was a Friday and the following Saturday morning she actually initiated LM which hadn't happen in quite a few years. She told what a great time she had and thought I would enjoy it too (they did Salsa dancing).

That Sunday, I took my girls to church as I usually do and she went to work out. Later that afternoon we lounged by the pool and the complex we live. I have to admit, my wife was unusually animated, upbeat. She usually is but looking back, there was a extra spark going on. As the week started, my wife, who just recently went back to work after being a stay at home mom for 17 years, told me she had a business mixer that she had to attend that Thursday and would I be alright with it. Of course, I said. She kept on informing me she didn't really want to go but it was for business. I was in complete agreement that it would be good to go.

That Thursday afternoon, we both took our DD 14 year old to the Doctor as she had a condition that was worrying. Afterwards, I went shopping with WW and the 14 and 9 year old so she could buy a new coat for the "mixer" that night. (Everything was okay with my 14 year old---relief).

She went, came home about 11:30 pm (I was in bed) We breifly spoke about it and went to sleep. The following Friday we were to go out together for a drink as she was leaving for her sister's wedding for a week. Typically, we phone each other a couple of times a day. That Friday, I got her VM and she never returned my call. I finally got a hold of her at about 4:00 pm and she was very evasive about wanting to meet for that drink. I told her, "hey, don't feel obligated, spend the time with the girls as they will miss you as well". (Here I'm thinking we will ML that night)

That night at home was truly the Twlight Zone. She was as cold as ice. It was so bad, I slept in one of my daughter's rooms (she was spending the night at a friend's). Dear reader, I hadn't done that EVER in 19 years of marriage.
The following Saturday morning as she was leaving for her trip, she hovered me as I awoke with a very stern "goodbye". I weakly replied "have a good time". I'm still wondering what is happening here.

Later Saturday and that Sunday, the kids got warm text messages, nothing for me. Well, my red alert went up. I decided to check the cell phone records. I had never done that before with the one exception of monitoring my eldest two years previously. I had forgotton the password. I had text'd my WW for the password under the guise that I wanted to check the 14 year old records. The reply came back that I would have to wait as she didn't have it. Well I knew that was a lie. I called the carrier and reset the password and immedidately checked her usage. I didn't recognize many of the numbers but the one thing that jumped out at me was a text message at 1:30 am after her so called "mixer". I phoned the number at got the OM voice mail and his name. I immediately phoned my WW and asked, so who is (name)? Right away I got a barrage of how unhappy she is and how rotten I am. Very angry with me. She said she just went to dinner with OM and she was not having A as she just met him. And because I found out so easily, she didn't premediate anything.

The next 5 days were hell. Now I am checking the cell phone records constantly and seeing text messages go back and forth between them. I am totally stressed out. My girls see their Dad cry for the first time. They are fully aware of what's happening and try to comfort me saying that Mom wouldn't do such a thing--it must be harmless. I talk to my pastor and have a breakdown. I am in shock.

WW returns early Saturday morning expecting me to be outraged. I am calm and at peace. We talk for hours. I have cried like I've never cried before. She cries too, but tells me she wants a separation. My jaw is so far dropped it hits my feet. She tells me little about OM expect he makes her feel "special". He is 13 years her junior and very successful. I ask "does he know you are married with 3 children". He does but is okay with it.

That weekend we talk, cry, talk. I'm exhausted, she is exhausted. WW agrees that I can "stay" (thank you very much) but she will not NC with OM. My DD 14 year old is furious with Mom. She is also furious with me for allowing it. I tell her, what can I do, sweetie? The only alternative is for me to move out. I arrange for counselling that Monday. WW agrees but says she will not give up contact and she doesn't know if she loves me anymore. We go out for a meal afterwards. Everything is very civil. I hear about my "faults" and her resentments stemming from incidents 10 years ago. Why didn't you tell me? You shouldn't known, she answers.

She plans to go out on second dinner date with OM that Thursday. They are texting and telephoning all the while. WW is still holding my hand and cuddling me as we talk. She even suggested we rent "Fireproof". We had seen it a few months previously and I had totally forgotten about it. We get it and watch it that Wednesday and have long discussion about it that was positive.

That Thursday as she is getting ready for her date, I am absolutely beside myself but keep my emotions in check. Phone my Pastor and brother for support. She looks great. Just before she leaves I go to gym to work out. Get home and spend the next 4 hours dying inside. On my knees praying. She gets home at 1:40 am. I offer to make her tea. She says yes. I ask nothing about the date. She goes to bed and cuddles up to me. Weird.

Friday night, I come home having picked up my two teenagers from activities. WW is on phone to OM in the house. 14 year old goes ballastic. WW leaves to continue conversation. That night we all go ice skating. Have a good time. Monday rolls around and that evening WW tell me she is breaking off communication with OM. I thank her. She is still not sure about our marriage. I have since found some email communciation that she did not delete and very hurtful.

Three weeks later, it is as if it never happened. WW is actually saying "I love you". But I'm still obessing about it and it makes me angry.
Posted By: armymama Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:27 PM
JAL,

I think you need a plan, not just encouragement. If you have not read Dr Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair", get it as soon as possible. Also, Scotland has a thread for newly betrayed with many links in it. Read through those as well, if you haven't already.

Ask your wife to write a no contact letter that you will send. Her response to that request will be very telling. My guess is that she will not want to do it and this A has just gone further underground. Also, since this is a workplace affair, there are several places it needs to be exposed. So far, your wife is having no problem at all flaunting her activity in front of your children. You need more pressure. Is the OM married? If so, expose the A to his wife.

Do not leave your home or children. Your wife is the one in the affair. She should be the one to leave.

I am sorry you are here and this is happening to you and your family. If you decide to fight for your M, the resources are here to help you.

AM

PS. By the way, Dr. Harley writes that there are three very specific things that should occur after an A (I paraphrase).
1. End the affair, with no contact with other person for life
2. Develop extraordinary precautions that would prevent the affair from re-starting (change the environment, quit the job, change email address and phone numbers, share passwords, etc)
3. Have a marriage that is passionate (spouses devote 15-20 hours/week of undivided attention meeting each other's most important emotional needs).

Ask your wife is she is willing to work on the marriage in light of the above three items.

Posted By: aBetterMe Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:31 PM
jal - I'm very very sorry that you're here, but you have come to the best place to recover your marriage. I know the vets will be along soon to get you off on the right foot. In the meantime, READ READ READ everything on this site. Scotland has created a VERY helpful thread that will explain all you need to do to kill the affair and restore love.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240&page=1

aBetterMe
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:40 PM
thank you for your response. Yes, I have book on order. Yes, I very much intend to fight for my marriage. I am not leaving the home.

I do have access to her email unbeknowst to her. No new communication but the previous emails still not deleted. You're right, I doubt very seriously she will write a NC letter as she thinks because she didn't have sex and it was "only" dinner twice it's no big deal. Your comment that the A might have gone underground scares me. Might that be a bit paranoid? Or am I being naive?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:45 PM
jal,

What are you doing to snoop? Unfortunately, it is almost as though you need to believe contact has gone underground unless you can verify that there really is no more contact.

I would get a VAR/GPS installed in the car and also a keylogger on the computer. She could have set up a secret email and she could also have an "affair" phone.

It's not so much that you are not being naive but a big mistake that BSs make is that they think their WS is being reasonable when really they are the equivalent of a crackhead, doing whatever they can to keep getting their hits off the pipe...

Who was this exposed to? You said your 14 yr old went ballistic, do all your children know?

Also if she came home at 1:40 am , I hate to say it but there is a good chance this went physical.

Hang in there & keep posting!
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:46 PM
If she is putting this all under the rug this my friend is a FALSE recovery. Listen to armymama you and your wife needs to sit down and discuss about new EP's, and you need to get your balls back from your wife and start taking control of this marriage. Sorry to be harsh, but that is what I did with my husband wheels. I did not respect him as a man or a husband and she is totally doing that to you. She is not respecting you! So start taking control. A woman loves it when the man takes control of the marriage, or in any situation.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
as she thinks because she didn't have sex and it was "only" dinner twice it's no big deal.


Sorry to be the one to burst your bubble....

THEY HAD SEX

Why do you think she was so cold to you the night she came home?? HELLO!! WAKE UP!!

Your wife is a classic wayward wife, and you my friend are in a false recovery if she does not...

write a nc letter
block him on fb, phone, email, etc
transparency you having all access to everything
Making new EP's so this does not happen again
and she needs to stop talking to other male friends alone or at all!

And that list is only the half of it, but if she is not willing to write a nc letter, then the rest is out of the question.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:03 PM
SapphireReturns and SusieQ

thank you for your input. Yes, I have installed keylogger software--pretty sure no secret email. I have access to all internet accounts including FB and work email (which I captured with keylogger--I didn't ask for it). I found out where she went to dinner the first time as she had it on her GPS. I know she met OM for second date at his home as she left mapquest in her car. I did reverse address and confirmed his name. He is not married. I asked her if she had sex and she said no for fear of STD and that was the purpose for going out We have always hammered that point home to our teenage girls.

After she told me she cut off communication he had text'd her one last time saying he "regretting his comments" ironically enough on our anniversary day. She didn't know I knew what the message said (I commandered her phone and saw it) and came clean as to its content. We spoke about it over our anniversary dinner and she commented that he was a "player" and that her body would be compared to much younger woman. She didn't respond to it and commented that he was probably drunk (it came across at 2 am).

Is it possible that she came out of her fog sooner rather than later?
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:09 PM
SapphireReturns:

I've known the WW for 19 years. I really don't believe she would have had sex after 2 dates. True, it would have happened if it continued....I think OM wanted to that's why she backed off. In any event, she hasn't expressed a desire to "fix" our marriage or go to counselling (not good signs) but we are communicating well.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
I asked her if she had sex and she said no for fear of STD and that was the purpose for going out We have always hammered that point home to our teenage girls.
I am sorry but all bets are off when your spouse has gone wayward. The word of a wayward is basically worthless.

Have you asked her for a polygraph? Getting trickle truth is going to cause more ddays and hurt your chances for recovery.

Again, were all of your children told about the A? I am not sure if I missed it but who else was this exposed to?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:14 PM
I am sorry to say that I find it hard to believe that the A ended this easily.

Is ALL of her time accounted for? Does she still go out with her girlfriends for drinks or clubs? Has she been out ANY nights since she "ended" the A?
Posted By: armymama Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:16 PM
JAL,

She won't come out of the fog before the A has ended and I doubt that it is ended. They have still been communicating. Ask for the NC letter. Her response will be telling.

Why would she need a secret email? If I read the first post correctly, the OM is present in the workplace. She could talk to him any time she wants at work, go to lunch, etc.

She went to his house. The other posters are right. This A went physical (at some level, if not intercourse).

AM
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:21 PM
I agree, this was probably physical. And this affair isn't over. If she's serious about it being over, she will leave this job and find another. Continuing to work there puts her in danger of resuming her affair.

I am sure that the emails you have are way beyond what is appropriate for coworkers. I would expose this to her family and other friends (though you'll probably get little support from her clubbing companions) and I would alert HR to what your wife and scummy OM are doing. This man is a danger to the company - he is setting them up for a Sexual Harrassment lawsuit.

It's only been a month, you absolutely cannot expect yourself to be over it yet - it is going to take time and a repentant spouse to get there.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:21 PM
SusieQ:
All 3 children know. WW even phoned my mom to say she had gone out twice with OM which surprised me. She delivered the news matter factly. She did it to preempt my telling her. My mom just said WW told her but she didn't ask any question. WW parents know but because they are amoral, it doesn't matter a jot to them.

I had my pastor over for dinner (he knows all) and it went well. I told my brother and his wife. They are supportive.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:28 PM
OM doesn't work in same workplace at all. OM is 20 minutes away--different business. Only thing is--she went out two Fridays ago with the same female friend against my wishes. I suspected she was hoping to "bump" into OM. I asked her if she did and said no.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:29 PM
But who told your children?

I hope it wasn't your WW. Because most likely she didn't tell them a) it was an AFFAIR and b) that it was WRONG and c) they are probably confused because of the fogbabble she spewed at them...

It sounds like your eldest is old enough to know better but we have heard many horror stories of waywards confusing their children about the A (my niece is one example.)
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:30 PM
Sorry if you are getting overwhelmed with all the questions but this one is important:
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Is ALL of her time accounted for? Does she still go out with her girlfriends for drinks or clubs? Has she been out ANY nights since she "ended" the A?
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:34 PM
SusieQ:
I told them the week WW was gone. All 3 very unhappy with Mom. they all know it's wrong and damaging to our family. WW has assured them she won't continue for their sake (not mine nor marriage).
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:36 PM
Your wife needs to stop going out clubbing. PERIOD.

You need to demand that as part of your recovery.

She has demonstrated an inability to party and maintain her marriage vows. Also, going out provides opportunities for contact. Her story doesn't add up - if they don't work together going on 2 dates wont provide the emotional detachment to you and attachment to him. How long has she been seeing him?

Ask her for a polygraph.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:39 PM
susieQ:
Only thing is--she went out two Fridays ago with the same female friend against my wishes. I suspected she was hoping to "bump" into OM. I asked her if she did and said no. She text me a couple of times. her friend found out about the affair and express her displeasure...she could be a ally but not sure
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:45 PM
Vibrassa:
thanks for you input. She met him while "clubbing". I am very sure that they only had the two "dates". WW gave her business card that night and he emailed her (I have the email--the messages indicates they had just met). She text'd him later that day and their subsequent first date. Yes, it was a very short lived EA. August 1 to the 23rd with a week where she was out of town (he wasn't there as they were texting then)
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:49 PM
Then she absolutely MUST stop her clubbing. It happened once, it will happen again unless a stop is put to it.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:50 PM
jal,

Ok, I have been reading along and I think you are missing somethings.

1. Your W had sex with OM, bet on it. she made the comment about comparing her body to younger women and she was cold as ice to you.

2. This was NOT 2 dates. Something happened earlier or there would not have been date #1.

3. Three, she has not expressed any real remorse for what she has done, she feels entitled to go out with the "girls" and she feels entitled to the affair. Her only concern is for the girls and probably only out of embarrassment.

4. She is not through withdrawal and she is in contact with OM probably via work or one of her friends. After all she made contact with him before the "dates".

You need to quit tiptoeing around the elephant in your home. The fact that the pastor came by and there was no fight is not a sign she has stopped the affair.

The fact that she has not apologized on indicated that she actually cares what you think is a sure sign this affair is ongoing even if it slowed down some.

Young man you cannot fix what you don't acknowledge, to quote Dr. Phil. You cannot expect her to address this if you won't.

Running around feeling bad, is not addressing this. What is your plan?

Think about this very carefully.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
susieQ:
Only thing is--she went out two Fridays ago with the same female friend against my wishes. I suspected she was hoping to "bump" into OM. I asked her if she did and said no. She text me a couple of times. her friend found out about the affair and express her displeasure...she could be a ally but not sure
So other than that Friday night, there is no other time unaccounted for? There have been no other outings for the afternoon or evening that you were not able to confirm where she was? No late nights at work, etc??
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
jal,

Ok, I have been reading along and I think you are missing somethings.

1. Your W had sex with OM, bet on it. she made the comment about comparing her body to younger women and she was cold as ice to you.

2. This was NOT 2 dates. Something happened earlier or there would not have been date #1.

3. Three, she has not expressed any real remorse for what she has done, she feels entitled to go out with the "girls" and she feels entitled to the affair. Her only concern is for the girls and probably only out of embarrassment.

4. She is not through withdrawal and she is in contact with OM probably via work or one of her friends. After all she made contact with him before the "dates".

You need to quit tiptoeing around the elephant in your home. The fact that the pastor came by and there was no fight is not a sign she has stopped the affair.

The fact that she has not apologized on indicated that she actually cares what you think is a sure sign this affair is ongoing even if it slowed down some.

Young man you cannot fix what you don't acknowledge, to quote Dr. Phil. You cannot expect her to address this if you won't.

Running around feeling bad, is not addressing this. What is your plan?

Think about this very carefully.

God Bless,

JL


And the CROWD said.......

AMEN!!
Posted By: chrisner Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:06 PM
I really just wanted to stay out of this but��..

You stood by and gave her the green light that she can date while married to you. She can talk and text to boyfriends right in front of you in your own house. Even if it really is over with first OM you can bet there will be more. Why? Because you already shown her it�s okay. He was just the first on the club sampler plate.

No wonder she is so happy right now. She lives in a marriage with absolutely no boundaries or consequences. Candy Land. A nice place to come home to see her kids, make sure you fed them and are on top of their homework and still have her date nights.

I don�t know what to say.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by chrisner
I really just wanted to stay out of this but��..

You stood by and gave her the green light that she can date while married to you. She can talk and text to boyfriends right in front of you in your own house. Even if it really is over with first OM you can bet there will be more. Why? Because you already shown her it�s okay. He was just the first on the club sampler plate.

No wonder she is so happy right now. She lives in a marriage with absolutely no boundaries or consequences. Candy Land. A nice place to come home to see her kids, make sure you fed them and are on top of their homework and still have her date nights.

I don�t know what to say.


MAN another GREAT post!!

Exactly what I thought when I read his post.

I thought to myself, this guy needs to get his balls back from his wife and start taking control of this marriage.

We are only trying to help you, I don't want to be harsh, but please you HAVE to see what is going on??
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
SusieQ:
I told them the week WW was gone. All 3 very unhappy with Mom. they all know it's wrong and damaging to our family. WW has assured them she won't continue realized she had to stop flaunting the A and start covering her tracks for their sake (not mine nor marriage).
(Emphasis mine)

We are trying to 2x4 you because you are settling for crumbs and setting yourself up for a FR (false recovery).

I noticed you answered the question about unaccounted time very vaguely and haven't answered it when I pressed you for more.

Agree with JL and am very worried at this point that you are in denial...
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:15 PM
all other times accounted for--in fact, WW is phoning me, texting me regularly. We are going out for meals, drinks, etc more frequently than before. With the exception of that one Friday--no other outings.
Posted By: armymama Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:16 PM
JAL,

There is tough love here. These posters are all correct. You let this (and it is far worse than you are making it sound) occur right in front of you in your own house. Time to take charge and make it end, for your marriage, for your children and most importantly, for yourself.

OM works 20 minutes away. I would not be surprised if there have been lunch meetings and conversations from the work telephone.

AM
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
all other times accounted for--in fact, WW is phoning me, texting me regularly. We are going out for meals, drinks, etc more frequently than before. With the exception of that one Friday--no other outings.
Well, then you need to get a GPS/VAR in the car. It is the only way you will know for 100% sure.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:26 PM
Thank you all for your input. I will invest in an VAR but the most important thing I can do is forgive WW and move forward improving myself and investing more into this marriage. My head is metaphorically, out of sand now as trust has been broken and I need to be on alert. I am looking forward to reading the books I ordered and putting them into action.
Posted By: armymama Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:30 PM
Why would you even consider forgiving someone who has no remorse, has not apologized, and continues with weak boundries and selfish behavior?

Good luck, because without a plan to end the A and re-build the M, you're going to need lots of it.

AM

Posted By: Just Learning Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:35 PM
jal,

You are getting the cart before the horse. Has she requested your forgiveness? IF she has what has she asked you to forgive?

jal, before you get to forgiveness you need to have some very very long and hard talks with her. You need to know why she felt she could violate her own moral code, the moral code you apparently are trying to teach your daughters and do it right in front of you and them? You need to understand what she feels you did to justify her affair. You need to understand if she is going to forgive YOU for whatever it is that she thinks you did to justify her cheating on you.

Son, if you were walking away from this marriage, then I would encourage you to forgive her now, so that you can get on with your life. If you intend to remain married, then forgiveness now is simply a good way to have this happen again. You don't even know what you are forgiving nor has there been any effort on either of your parts to address the conditions of your marriage. You are so far away from forgiveness right now it is silly.

Please think about this carefully. I am not saying you should not forgive her, but you should not forgive her for things you don't know about or understand. I mean really are you forgiving her for wearing white after labor day? Are you forgiving her for an EA or a PA? Are you forgiving her for her independent behavior which clearly has threatened your marriage, what exactly are you so ready to forgive her for?

Think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: chrisner Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:40 PM
Quote
My DD 14 year old is furious with Mom. She is also furious with me for allowing it. I tell her, what can I do, sweetie? The only alternative is for me to move out.

You need to go back to your 14 year old daughter and praise her for being so wise. Promise her that if her mom continues to go on interview dates for an adultery partner it is not you who will be leaving.

Quote
The only alternative is for me to move out.


Please at least tell me you no longer believe that after today.

Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:52 PM
No she hasn't requested forgiveness. She has admitted she has "crossed" the line but shows no real remorse for it. She is not even sure if she wants to stay in the marriage or if she loves me anymore. So what do I do? Leave? Rub her nose in her bad behavior? She has told me she has had NC and I have been able to verify, to some degree, this is the case especially through her actions and behaviors. I believe this was an EA. I could be wrong. What difference would it make? Shouldn't I forgive for my sake? Otherwise, I will make myself crazy.

I would love to get answers to all the questions you pose. I am still perplexed as to how it came to this and why WW actually crossed the line this time. What was the trigger? Is now the time to do it? Maybe get some positive structure into the marriage before asking? I'm thinking maybe six months down the road after I've had a chance to inject some positive characteristics into the marriage, then go into detail as to the whys and wherefores.

If it happens again (hopefully I learn how to affair-proof my marriage from the good Dr.'s book) then I will need to evaluate my next move.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:55 PM
I am very thankful for the wisdom of my DD 14 year old!
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 07:57 PM
NO - YOU don't leave the house. EVER!

It isn't an option.

However, if she persists in her marriage destroying behavior, you ask her to leave and file for separation.

You need to expose this - to her friend that is a potential ally and to anyone else who your wife respects. Let her know that you expect FULL transparency, you want her to delete and remove any items that are linked to OM. She cannot go out clubbing anymore.

She must agree to explore Extraordinary Precautions to affair proof your marriage and to commit to a program of recovery.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:10 PM
No, agreed, I won't leave the house. I believe she has stopped all bad behavior. She doesn't know that I have access to her one business email where she hasn't yet deleted the 3 messages from OM from a month ago. I am afraid to confront today as I don't want to blow my cover. If she is to communicate, I believe she thinks this in the one "safe" place. Until my M is on more solid footing, shouldn't I wait to confront her on that and EP? Believe me, I want to tell her I've seen them and how hurtful they are to me. but the timing is not right.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:16 PM
If you wait 6 months there will be no need for EP's because you will be divorced.
Posted By: SapphireReturns Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
but the timing is not right.


I guess for her cheating on you in front of your face was not timing right either right?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:18 PM
jal,

Even if all contact has really ended, which I am doubtful of, because she is still hiding details of her A, it will keep her stuck and prevent you two from moving forward in a recovery.

I would sit her down and tell her that YOU are hopeful that you two can build a wonderful M, if but that you are going to require some things:
~ polygraph
~ NC letter
~ Establish EPs
~ spend 15 hrs UA minimum a week together, using the MB plan

She isn't going to like this at first because she is used to getting her way but she will respect you in the end for requiring more from her and more for your M.

You have to acknowledge that you are terrified to lose her and that that fear has paralyzed you to the point that you have allowed her to walk all over you in the past. You need to establish some boundaries and raise the bar for your R. Dr. H's requirements for recovery (under the basic concepts) is the template you should use for your Plan. The plan shouldn't be accepting the crumbs your WW throws at you...
Posted By: chrisner Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:25 PM
Quote
No, agreed, I won't leave the house.


Then this has been a good day.

Get Surviving an Affair ASAP

Read up on Plan A here in the site and get started. See Scotlands thread for newbies. I think it has been bumped up in the last hour.

Get a GPS in her car ASAP.

Get a voice activated recorder in her car ASAP.

Others here have indicated that your WW is going along with things just a little to easy. I agree. Stay vigilant.

If she wants to go clubbing again soon and I expect she will, see if you can get a PI for that night. Yes I am serious.

What will your boundry be if she flaunts an OM in your face in your house again? You need a firm plan and the courage to enact it. Your daughters need you.

Plan A with very limited relationship talk.
Read.
Read.
Do.

Good luck jal.
Posted By: americajin Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:49 PM
Quote
but the most important thing I can do is forgive WW and move forward improving myself and investing more into this marriage.

You sound like you are afraid of your wife - why? She's cheating on you, if not with this guy, then with someone else. What has made you become a spectator on your own life?
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 08:56 PM
I've ordered three books--Surviving an Affair, His Needs, Her Needs and the third on romance. I guess I have quite a bit a reading and learning to do. I am very concerned it could happen again or the OM of a month ago can be revisited. It's not that I'm afraid but confused. I was caught totally off guard. I'm wondering if it has happened before? I've done a lot of business travel in the past. Polygraph? That's a bit extreme. What would I ask her?--she has already admitted the EA.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:02 PM
Polygraph is the only way to KNOW you get the truth. Your wife has had an affair, man. It's already extreme.

Polygraph is the only way to rule out a PA, which my instincts are saying occurred. Maybe not sex, but there was SOME physical act.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:41 PM
I can tell that you are overwhelmed. I am going to break it down for you...

Originally Posted by jal7788
She has admitted she has "crossed" the line but shows no real remorse for it. She is not even sure if she wants to stay in the marriage or if she loves me anymore.
This with some other things that you have described is what we call FOG.

You are a few weeks into NC and you should see this lifting. When you don't, it is a big redflag redflag that 1) there is still contact/the A is still ongoing, 2) that you haven't gotten the whole truth yet or 3) both #1 + 2.


Originally Posted by jal7788
So what do I do?
What is prescribed to help the de-fogging process is:
~ exposure
~ polygraph to make sure you have gotten the truth about whether there is any more contact and the full extent of the A
(when you request this, it also demonstrates to the WS that the BS isn't willing to settle for half-truths)
~ having some boundaries for what you will accept in R (Hint: USE DR HARLEY'S REQUIREMENTS FOR RECOVERY!!!)

Good luck!
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:47 PM
Thank you for your continued input. What difference does it make if some physical act ocurred? Let say she passionately kissed the OM? Or held his hand? The fact is had an EA is bad enough, right? Do I adjust my reponse? I want to make my marriage better but she tells me she is not ready to make that committment. Now what? What leverage do I have? Move out and leave my children? I'm looking forward to the strategies in the books I've ordered. I guess she feels she is giving me enough by the fact that she has cut of contact. Of course I want more, but I can't force her to give more, can I?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:52 PM
No, the level of detail doesn't really affect the chances for recovery and we aren't saying you can't recover from a PA.

The problem is that if she is holding back secrets it will keep her foggy and also lead to a lack in intimacy. (Read the Policy of Radical Honesty)

We are not saying that you need to know every single detail of what they did either. But should you know if the A went PA? YES
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:53 PM
JAL,

You have been getting excellent advice. I will respond to your questions to me and others.

You asked the following questions
Quote
No she hasn't requested forgiveness. She has admitted she has "crossed" the line but shows no real remorse for it. She is not even sure if she wants to stay in the marriage or if she loves me anymore. So what do I do? Leave? Rub her nose in her bad behavior? She has told me she has had NC and I have been able to verify, to some degree, this is the case especially through her actions and behaviors. I believe this was an EA. I could be wrong. What difference would it make? Shouldn't I forgive for my sake? Otherwise, I will make myself crazy.


NO you don't rub her nose in it, but you need to do an internal check and figure out what your boundaries are. Then you protect those boundaries. You sure don't leave, if anyone is leaving it should be her. What you do is seek good advice.

Personally, I would strongly encourage you to call the Harleys and set up a counseling appointment. This is what they do, and they do it well.

I would also sit down with your daughters and have a talk with them about this situation. You need to allow them to voice their opinions and thoughts on this matter as they are strongly affected by this affair.

You asked what difference it makes if it is an EA or a PA. For one a PA is often an indication of how deep the feelings for OM your W has. Most women attach emotionally before they go to PA. If that has happened then this is not just a 2 date wonder, and her actions indicate that she is deeply attached. She did this right in front of you and your daughters suggesting a deep attachment to OM and repudiation of you and your daughters. It is really for you to determine if it makes a difference.

As to forgiving for your sake, yep you should, but I repeat what are you forgiving? YOu don't know, and she has not sought forgiveness. It is not uncommon for a WS to never apologize but if they don't seek forgiveness then something is up.

As others have pointed out, she may be in withdrawal or the affair is continuing but in either case the WS is most often in the "fog" where they only think of themselves and no one else. Hence you really need to be there for your daughters.

I would strongly encourage good promarriage counseling.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:54 PM
Stop talking about moving out!!!

Just stop it!

THAT is not your leverage.

Your leverage is your willingness to remain in the marriage. If the marriage ends you STILL DON'T LEAVE. You let your wife leave.

Cutting off contact isn't NEAR enough.

She needs to understand the level of betrayal she has committed. You need to understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

Going NC is the FIRST STEP to recovery.

After that you demand Extraordinary Precautions to preclude the resumption of an affair. In order to do this you need to know what boundaries were violated.

Then you must have a plan to restore the love in your marriage.

You can't force her to comply - but you can make complying a requisite for a chance to rebuild the mess she's made.

YOU have the power here, not her! TAKE IT!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
Thank you all for your input. I will invest in an VAR but the most important thing I can do is forgive WW

Jal, the most important thing for your marriage is for her to EARN your forgiveness. It is ok to be willing to FORGIVE, but it is inappropriate to forgive her while she is still in the process of robbing the bank [metaphorically]. She needs to know you will forgive her if she EARNS IT but it is not an entitlement for waywards.

There is a better way to achieve forgiveness that benefits your marriage:

From Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.
continued here
Posted By: themud Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:24 PM
**edit**

She had sex, something he said made her feel her age, and she probably called it off, but she WILL have another A, I'll garuantee it. She needs a polygraph. If she comes clean a year from now you will feel exactly like you did 4 weeks ago. You need to get her to come clean now! You also need for her to MB. The A is her fault, but she was lacking something that you haven't provided and you need to know what that is so you can put EP in place.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:24 PM
How do get her to understand the level of betrayal she has committed? Believe me I understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

Going NC is the FIRST STEP to recovery. I believe this has taken place but I am not naive enough to think it can't happen again.

How do I "demand" Extraordinary Precautions to preclude the resumption of an affair. I can't get her to talk about what boundaries were violated (not yet anyway).

Shouldn't I plan to restore the love in our marriage first to get to the previous queries?

I would love WW to want to earn forgiveness, but I don't think she understands how deeply she has hurt me.
Posted By: Linus Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Vibrissa
She needs to understand the level of betrayal she has committed. You need to understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.
This cannot be emphasized enough. My WW had an EA. To this day, she does not fully understand the level of betrayal and the amount of hurt that SHE caused. Please, do not ever think that you had a part in causing the affair between your wife and POSOM. You did not.

Also, when considering the depth of damage, keep in mind that BOTH of you have been damaged. Your WW has been damaged by her own actions and the actions of the POSOM. It is quite possible that you will start repairing the damage to yourself - and even recover to some extent - before WW does. I believe that my WW hasn't recovered from the EA simply because she has yet to understand that SHE was responsible for bringing another man into our marriage. This just hasn't sunk in, and only when it does will your WW (and mine) be able to ask for forgiveness and start the healing process for all.

I have been through a number of false recoveries over the past 11 months. Please listen to the advice that you're getting so that you don't have to suffer the same fate. I waited too long to demand respect. Don't make the same mistake.

God Bless
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
How do get her to understand the level of betrayal she has committed? Believe me I understand the full depth of the damage that has been caused.

Going NC is the FIRST STEP to recovery. I believe this has taken place but I am not naive enough to think it can't happen again.

How do I "demand" Extraordinary Precautions to preclude the resumption of an affair. I can't get her to talk about what boundaries were violated (not yet anyway).

Shouldn't I plan to restore the love in our marriage first to get to the previous queries?

I would love WW to want to earn forgiveness, but I don't think she understands how deeply she has hurt me.

Jal, I would set her down and tell her how devastating her affair has been to you and to the future of your marriage. It will be critical for you to use this time to raise the bar in your marriage or it won't recover. If you lower the bar and accept teh status quo, you will end up with a cripple marriage.

It won't recover by accident. There has to be a viable action plan otherwise your marriage will limp along critically wounded until she finds another affair partner.

You cannot restore the love in your marriage without a plan. It will not happen by magic.

The solution is to set her down and tell her that you are willing to forgive her and stay in the marriage only if she commits to the recovery of your marriage. OTHERWISE YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED.

As it is now, she probably believes that you will do nothing to stop her abusive behavior and that you have no boundaries whatsoever. If there is no PLAN of recovery, you are facing a slow death of a thousand cuts.

Tell her: "here is what it will take to keep me interested in this marriage":

1. a no contact letter to the OM

2. complete and total honesty about your affair

3. a change of the environment that led to the affair: ie clubbing, opposite sex friendships, etc

4. transparency of cell phones, email passwords, etc

5. committment to a recovery program that will restore the romantic love in our marriage

"Dear, if you would be willing to do these things, I would be willing to forgive you and stay in this marriage. But, I will not stay in a damaged, loveless marriage."

If you raise this bar in this way, she will likely wake up and meet your standards. If she doesn't meet these standards, your future is very bleak because a failure to recover from an affair means a crippled marriage that most often leads to repeat affairs.


Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:38 PM
The key then is to get the WW to acknowledge her damage. But HOW do you get her to do this IF she doesn't believe it was a BIG deal??
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:40 PM
hi there,
we all understand that you don't want to break your family up and that you want and love your wife.....
but the affair has to stop and she has to understand how she got to the place where she could have an affair, and she needs to put a plan into place so she is never in any kind of position to ever repeat.
You have to communicate and fill each others needs and both work on fixing what is wrong in the marriage.
your wife is still in the affair fog and will be for a while.......she is acting like it and talking like it, they all do it......
she doesn't even seem to be to put off by your daughters reaction, and good for them by the way..........
she is seeing only what she wants right now......
complete no contact with OM is necessary.......
complete transparency on her part with all communication devices......all her time should be accounted for......
If she is not willing to abide by the rules, ask her to leave, tell her you love her and are willing to work on the marriage, but not while there is a 3rd person involved............
tell her this is not acceptable and it never will be.....tell her you will move on if her choice is the relationship with the Om and that she is free to go and find the happiness she thinks exists with him.
Expose to everyone around you.......take care of yourself and your girls financially. These things can be reversed easily but she will see you are serious about not putting up with the disrespect......
she is cake eating right now, getting something from both of you, let her feel what it would be like with the support of her family.....do you really think the OM is up to filling all her needs.......not on your life, he is only in for one thing, not responsibility, if he was in that position I'm sure he would run for the hills......
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 10:48 PM
Melody Lane:
I get that. I will do that (after I read the book I've ordered). I can anticipate what WW will say,

1. No I will not sent letter, I've already established NC (she will be embarrassed);

2. I've told you everything (WW wouldn't agree to polygraph);
3. (she might agree to this one);
4. you know all my passwords except one for work and I need some privacy (I have it anyway)
5. I don't know yet if I want to committment to recovery--I want to see how things go between us.

Like me, she won't leave the house.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
Thank you for your continued input. What difference does it make if some physical act ocurred? Let say she passionately kissed the OM? Or held his hand? The fact is had an EA is bad enough, right? Do I adjust my reponse? I want to make my marriage better but she tells me she is not ready to make that committment. Now what? What leverage do I have? Move out and leave my children? I'm looking forward to the strategies in the books I've ordered. I guess she feels she is giving me enough by the fact that she has cut of contact. Of course I want more, but I can't force her to give more, can I?

You tell us - would you rather your WW just 'talk dirty' to an OM? Would it be worse if she admitted giving him oral? Dropping her panties? What is your thought on that?

Are you content to have her be less than honest with you? Less than forthcoming with the one person in her life that she should be completely honest with? Do you want a shell of a M where deceit is the order of the day?

You are certainly within your rights to settle for crumbs from a WW.

Prepare for other A's, because you're both setting your M up for them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
The key then is to get the WW to acknowledge her damage. But HOW do you get her to do this IF she doesn't believe it was a BIG deal??

nono, the key is to state your boundaries and ensure she understands what you will and won't accept. I didn't say anything about making her acknowledge the damage she caused. That will come later if and when she ends contact and withdraws from the OM.

For now, the important thing is get her on board with recovery.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
Melody Lane:
I get that. I will do that (after I read the book I've ordered).

I would not wait one day. There is no reason to wait.

Quote
I can anticipate what WW will say,

1. No I will not sent letter, I've already established NC (she will be embarrassed);

2. I've told you everything (WW wouldn't agree to polygraph);
3. (she might agree to this one);
4. you know all my passwords except one for work and I need some privacy (I have it anyway)
5. I don't know yet if I want to committment to recovery--I want to see how things go between us.

Like me, she won't leave the house.

"Dear, i dont' know if I want to commit to recovery either, but I am giving you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and keep me interested in this marriage. Doing these things will help me make up my mind. Here are the things I will require:

1.
2.
3.

If she won't agree to this program of recovery, I would tell her that you won't stay in an abusive, crippled marriage so the next logical step would be separation.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by jal7788
SapphireReturns:

I've known the WW for 19 years. I really don't believe she would have had sex after 2 dates. True, it would have happened if it continued....I think OM wanted to that's why she backed off. In any event, she hasn't expressed a desire to "fix" our marriage or go to counselling (not good signs) but we are communicating well.

Waywards are liars, jal. If their lips are moving they're lying. This isn't the woman you've known for 19. She has been replaced by a wayward.

Yessirree. They've had sex. Count on it. That's the reason for her coldness toward you that night. She was conflicted with lust for OM and loyalty for you. Problem is, she's already addicted to the high she gets from OM, so she manufactured a reason in her mind to be angry at you - that "makes it all your fault."

What's going on right now? She's plotting, jal. She's keeping you on the hook for what you're giving her (which is likely mainly financial right now) and to have access to her daughters, while she gets everything worked out in her head and with OM.

Have you spoken to OM and explained that Hell will be visiting him if he doesn't leave your wife alone? For all you know she's told him she's single. Sometimes that works.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
[ I want to make my marriage better but she tells me she is not ready to make that committment. Now what? What leverage do I have? Move out and leave my children? I'm looking forward to the strategies in the books I've ordered. I guess she feels she is giving me enough by the fact that she has cut of contact. Of course I want more, but I can't force her to give more, can I?

if she does not end her affair and commit to the marriage, then the next logical step would be to file for divorce on grounds of adultery and get her legally removed from your home. Do you live in a fault state? In many states, you can file on grounds of adultery and keep possession of the home and primary custody of the children. In these cases, you can have the OM subpeonaed to the stand to give testimony of his affair under oath.

As long as your wife knows that you will not tolerate the status quo and that you will use her adultery to gain a legal advantage, she will be less inclined to maintain the status quo.
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/21/10 11:49 PM
I live in CA--no fault divorce. Right now, she is actually earning more than me (a lot more). She was stay at home mom for 17-18 years, now working with her father. My income has dropped significantly last 6 months but looking better. My daughters, bless them, would probably prefer living with mom than dad if forced to choose.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: I need some encouragement - 09/22/10 12:36 AM
jal,

Maybe they will and maybe they won't. You simply love them, talk with them, and protect them. They won't forget how you handled this.

it seems to me your W is getting very full of herself. If that is so, then you must protect your boundaries and that includes seeking legal advice.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: jal7788 Re: I need some encouragement - 09/22/10 03:53 AM
JL,
yes, that's part of it---w is full of herself. The dynamics of our relationship have changed. To her credit, she hasn't hid or not made available her income but very disrespectful. I guess my (lack of ) earning power played (plays) a bigger role in how we relate. The OM is kinda me 10-15 years ago--corporate high flyer.

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