Marriage Builders

In reading NUMEROUS posts where the FWW now has to deal with a BH that feels he will always be SECOND to her former OM...

and the FWW being reluctant to give to her BH...

and the BH demanding what the OM got...

BOTH the FWW and the BH seem to forget EVERYTHING but their own pain...

Which is consistent with them BOTH being TAKERS and not GIVERS.

The BH MUST remember that the affair was a fantasy world created by his WW.

There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING REAL about any of it.

NO MATTER WHAT SHE SAYS...

SHE DID NOT LOVE THE OM.

SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH A FANTASY THAT WAS NOT REAL AND COULD NOT EVER BE HERS BECAUSE IT DID NOT EXIST.

WHAT WAS REAL WAS THE PURSUIT OF THE FANTASY, NOT THE ACQUISITION OF IT.

ACQUIRING IT WOULD HAVE RUINED THE FANTASY.

It would have REVEALED THE TRUTH to her...

that her "love" for him never existed...

that he was a FAKE...

YOU are not.

If your FWW is with you now...

it is because she wants to be with YOU.

YOUR JOB IS TO HELP HER FALL IN LOVE WITH YOU!!!

MB PLANS WILL HELP YOU DO JUST THAT...

DON'T JUST TALK ABOUT THEM...

DO THEM!!!

NOW...

FWW's...

YOUR BH FEELS THE INEQUALITY IN HIS MIND OF WHAT HE PERCEIVES YOU GIVING THE OM...

AS MORE.

IT WAS NOT.

BECAUSE IT WAS NOT REAL...

Your job...

is to give him...

not what you gave to the OM...

but the EFFORT you gave to get what you wanted then...

which is EXACTLY what you desire now...

the REAL meeting of your EMOTIONAL NEEDS...

and the love of your BH.

THE WAY YOU DO THIS IS BY GIVING...

NOT DEGRADATION, REPULSIVE SEXUAL ACTS OR THE BARTERING OF SEX FOR SOMEONE TO TELL YOU THAT:

"YOU'RE PRETTY AND SMART!!!" (please pull down your pants)

But something which actually exists which is the LOVE you have for your BH...

YOU SHOW HIM THIS THROUGH ENTHUSIASM, ZEAL, PURSUIT, LUST, DESIRE...

and MOST of ALL...

THE EFFORT WHICH YOU GAVE THE FANTASY!!!

THE WAY THAT IS ACCOMPLISHED...

for BOTH the FWW AND the BH...

is to replace the TAKER you BOTH have been wearing because of the RESENTMENT you both have...

and to replace it with the GIVER.

STOP ASKING WHERE IS MINE!!!

To have the MARRIAGE you both desire requires you to humble yourselves...

to forgive...

and to create a NEW MARRIAGE...

not trying to RESURRECT the OLD marriage...

BY CONSTANTLY BRINGING UP THE PAST!!!

YOU BOTH GIVE AS THOUGH THERE HAD NEVER BEEN AN AFFAIR.

100%...

ALL OF THE TIME.

God bless.

Jim
Good post Jim Flint, great advice for those BH and FWW. I did try many of the things that you suggested to me (name change) but it just didn't seem to work enough. Maybe it did but time will tell.

Thank you, Jim - excellent advice. I've gotten a lot of advice on efforts - and how so much of it you might not see working at the surface, but it's going on out of sight...laying a foundation. That's why everybody around here keeps telling me to keep chucking buckets of sand! wink

My Giver wants to give to my BH - no problems there. I have had to recognize - and it's hard sometimes, and I am not always good at it - that giving is not expecting a response in kind. That kind of thinking is my Taker. Thank you for the reminder to keep my Taker at bay.
On the surface what you wrote well done.

However, no matter how many times the word fantasy can be use to describe every aspect of the affair it does not make the real live SF that took place between the OP and the WS during the affair, fantasy SF.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
On the surface what you wrote well done.

However, no matter how many times the word fantasy can be use to describe every aspect of the affair it does not make the real live SF that took place between the OP and the WS during the affair, fantasy SF.

Thanks for THAT, Capt. Sunshine.

Yes...sex DID happen and I see that as a great barrier to recovery for those betrayed spouses that were virgins at marriage. However, years later now the fact that they had sex is really not much different than the fornicating that my wife (and I) did prior to marriage. It's history.

It was and will always remain sinful and nasty. It's disgusting that it happened and thereafter it's disgusting for anyone to want/desire it.

I know first hand how un-fulfilling my pre-marital sex was and I can't assign anymore significance to my wife's pre-marital NOR her extra-marital sex as anything more than that. In fact...the ease in which the whole entire event occurred is partially a consequence of BOTH of our sinful past (her affair was with an old college boyfriend she'd previously had sex with before I'd even met her...how much easier it was for them to get together again than if she'd remained a virgin all those years ago...combined with my attitude that the sex we'd both had didn't mean we needed to ever take extra-ordinary precautions with old bed mates as that may have cramped MY "friendships" with some old "friends".)

In the long run, IMO, it's a huge waste of brain space for the bs. Sure...in early recovery it's a HUGE hit the ego and self-confidence but in time, once love is restored it shouldn't be an issue.

My wife is in my bed now (not as I write this but figuratively). When we make love...angels sing as they do whenever a married couple has congress. There IS NOT any comparison and I know that because I am confident I am the best my wife has ever been with (which I don't take for granted...this takes a conscious effort) and because I, too, had empty sexual relations outside of His plan, pre-marriage, that I am ashamed of and hold no fond memories of....despite them seeming to be "saucey" (for lack of a better word) experiences at times. I would never consider bringing one of those disgusting moments of my life into our marital bedroom and, the last thing any BS should request or wish for, if they wish to restore marital love, is having their former wayward spouse bring such revulsion into their bedroom.

BH's - when she falls in love with you again...she'll do whatever decent thing you want and "decent" between a husband and wife doesn't have all that many limits.

Mr. Wondering
How I wish that your post would be the end to the vindictive "you can never make it up to him" posts that have sprung up lately, but I don't suppose it will.

Nobody - WH or WW - can make the affair un-happen, but if you focus on what was given away you will never have a recovered marriage. The "giving your H what you gave the OM" issue has NOTHING to do with marriage building, which should be what we try to help with on this board.

I sympathise with those who feel the loss acutely, but for posters should not go from thread to thread targeting WWs to tell them that they can never make it up to their BHs.

That is not help with marriage building.
WS's whether men or women can not undo what they did during the affair.

It has to be accepted by the BS. Some can, some can't. Yet I still do not to see how this can be covered by just compensation. There is no way the PA can be undone.

As to the BS getting what the OP got. Many times on MB the WS and BS are encouraged to reclaim things, acts, and places to "take them back from the OP.

The WS & BS should not have to do anything they don't want to?

What if it was something the WS always wanted to do but the BS never did, and it wasn't anything that wierd and only required two people? Shouldn't both be working towards meeting each other's needs now?

Or the opposite that the BS wanted but WS won't?

No spouse before during or after an affair should be able to expect wayout stuff unless both want it. Then there still need to be limits at no threesomes.

And now I will say this.

I think a WS should not turn down what they did for the OP if their BS want's it because they did it for the OP they claim now to of not really loved. Well they should give the person they love everything that they gave to someone else.

This is not a black and white subject. There are to many gray areas. There are some SF acts that should never be done. But a WS should not deny their BS what they gave away to the OP.
"Thanks for THAT, Capt. Sunshine"

Usually I have always thought for 99% of the time that you gave well thought out and well written answers. I could see how your words helped the thread starter. I wish I could write much better then I do.

However Sargent Stupid for the 1% of the time I never made it personel before.

Originally Posted by TheRoad
"Thanks for THAT, Capt. Sunshine"

Usually I have always thought for 99% of the time that you gave well thought out and well written answers. I could see how your words helped the thread starter. I wish I could write much better then I do.

However Sargent Stupid for the 1% of the time I never made it personel before.

I was attempting to be sarcastic and not personal. Mrs. W always criticizes me for not using emoticons when I am attempting humor. I should have put a laugh after the Capt. Sunshine.

I just thought your post was a debbie-downer post and I was not attempting to characterize YOU as a debbie-downer person.

Sorry.

I fully understand and appreciate that this is a particular struggle for betrayed husbands (especially virgins) but I like to focus on the hope that all their anxiety and pain on this subject can and will be relieved if and when they restore love to their relationship. A former wayward wife in love with her husband SHOULD recognize this pain and most definitely respond appropriately by at least trying to give the same effort and vigor to her husband sexually as she did OM. I think sometimes that's not fully possible because WW's lose all inhibition in the throes of an adulterous fantasy relationship...natural and personal inhibition which she has almost always had (outside the torrid affair) and will likely carry forward with her in even a restored loving marital relationship. That should be OK. I don't want the empty feeling of demanding specific sexual acts and then getting them without enthusiasm... that would be empty and hardly a reclamation. If and when she (any she...ww) does them...it, I submit, would only be sufficient if done in the natural course of a restored loving marriage...not as a means of obtaining one.

It is my hope that recently bh's focus more on restoring love than on reclaiming sex. I HOPE that if and when such BH falls in love with his wife again (which most BH's are NOT in love with their wives in early recovery when they most often set out to GET such sexual treats or undertake sexual reclamation) then they may not be as concerned with such "treats" because they then love their wife again and wouldn't want to make her uncomfortable sexual at all.

You are right...there is no taking it back. It happened. But focusing on the sexual acts is, IMO, unproductive to marital restoration and romantic love. Hope is found in LOVE and not specific sexual acts.

Mr. W

p.s. - At least I made you a Captain (an Officer rank) instead of the enlisted rank of Sargeant. grin
Mr. Wondering, I understand what you're saying. And we all know that wanting certain sexual acts can be a selfish demand. But it's really hard to say "Oh...okay...I get it. You'll feel demeaned doing X and Y with me because you want a 'normal' sexual relationship but it was okay with dude because that was dirty and wrong. Nevermind, honey...I don't want those things."

Granted I'd rather claw my eyes out than ever touch my wife again if she had sex with another man but I completely understand being frustrated that the WS would do certain things with the OP and not with the BS.

But I'm still trying to get my head around wanting to keep a WS after they have sex with another person and win them back. So take my opinion with a grain of salt. My first wife cheated, and I was gone.
Quote
It is my hope that recently bh's focus more on restoring love than on reclaiming sex. I HOPE that if and when such BH falls in love with his wife again (which most BH's are NOT in love with their wives in early recovery when they most often set out to GET such sexual treats or undertake sexual reclamation) then they may not be as concerned with such "treats" because they then love their wife again and wouldn't want to make her uncomfortable sexual at all.

This kind of statement lets me know that Mrs. W is almost as lucky to have her Mr. as I am to have mine. smile

It makes me think of I Cor. 13:4-7.
Don't want what the OP got. The OP got an escaped mental patient walking around in my FWW's skin.

I murdered that beast, and I don't care what spell it takes, I'll keep it dead.


While I love the sweet sounding female/wife centered response, I can't help but to feel it's just too Hallmark.

Fact of the matter is, that sex between a married man and woman, who are in love with each other has no limit to it's experiences or explanations. And in those, NEITHER husband nor wife would want to make the other uncomfortable, because their desires and actions are focused on exploring ways to SHARE pleasure with their spouse.

It's not focused on him, except to her. It's not focused on her, except to him.

The OP got a self-centered monstrosity. I just want my wife.
Quote
Don't want what the OP got. The OP got an escaped mental patient walking around in my FWW's skin.

Ha! This sounds like something my DH would say. I have to say, the SF that DH and I have experienced as a committed, married, one-in-the-eyes-of-God couple eclipses any dark ,temporary, shallow thrill I might have experienced during the A. There is no comparison.

Why dwell on rotten bologna when I am married to filet mignon.
It took watching a WW from the outside of the relationship to see that for myself.

My hurt and anger just could not absorb it each time DW said "I wasn't myself."

Now I have watched a coworker transform to accommodate her destructive path. I'm watching her pull the world down around her to protect the addiction.

This is not the person I have worked with over the years.

Now I understand what my DW was trying to tell me.
Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
To have the MARRIAGE you both desire requires you to humble yourselves...

to forgive...

and to create a NEW MARRIAGE...

not trying to RESURRECT the OLD marriage...

BY CONSTANTLY BRINGING UP THE PAST!!!

YOU BOTH GIVE AS THOUGH THERE HAD NEVER BEEN AN AFFAIR.

100%...

ALL OF THE TIME.

God bless.

Jim

I feel there are a large number of people coming here for help that do not STAY because we are not holding on to them long enough for them to actually see that MB works...

Most people especially those in tremendous pain will NOT stay in a pain inducing enviorment with simply the thought that it MAY work if you stay long enough...

They want something right now.

A BH that actually SHOWS the WW that she CAN be forgiven will actually hold onto her long enough for Plan A to begin working...

A FWW that actually SHOWS the BH that he can have a rewarding, satisfying Marriage by ALLOWING herself to fall back in love with her BH may KEEP him around long enough for it to occur...

Working the MB plans of meeting each others EN's IMMEDIATELY will give each other the sense that change CAN occur.

We sometimes get caught up with the idea that YES you can fall back in love eventually...

HOWEVER...

By that time the spouse is long gone.

EXPRESSED EMOTIONAL NEEDS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH BEING IN LOVE AND REQUESTED RESPECTFULLY AND NOT IMMORAL, UNLAWFUL, OR DEGRADING SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED!!!

THAT is the reason Dr.Harley's plans work.

It's not all about me.

The trick is to keep the disenchanted with the M spouse around long enough for the plans to work.

Jim



Which makes it impossible if the WW either:

A: Refuses to end her affair and return home.
B: Refuses to meet needs as you described were not immoral, illegal or whatever that she freely gave to the OM.
C: Continues to blame her BH for her decision to have the affair.

You are right, the trick is to entice the disenchanted spouse to work the plans. If she won't do that, then there is no chance to save the marriage.
And if the BS refuses to see any work the WS does until the WS agrees to degrade themselves, then recovery will not happen either. I guess after a point, when a WW has left the A, shown remorse and repentance, been O&H, takes responsibility, etc. A BH has to decide if he wants his wife or if he wants an act. If a specific act is more important than forgiveness and the marriage in the face of a truly repentant FWW, then the BS has other issues to work on.

Blast away. I know who I am an what I've got now, so I am no longer afraid of strangers.
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.

Well, the "act" that sparked this topic was a request for a 3-way, which I think most people would label immoral at best, certainly should be illegal, and is definitely dangerous to the marriage.
Hi EE,

Please note in MY posting I am advocating not an ACT but the expression of two people who are RESPECTFUL and acting consistently with being IN LOVE with each other and asking for EMOTIONAL NEEDS that they have to be honored not duplicating repulsive acts they performed to get what they wanted from their affair partners.

Big difference.

Please read the entire post that said they NEVER do anything that is not asked for in love, respectfully and without BEING DEGRADING!!!

Thanks to everyone to remember what was actually written had NOTHING to do with anything DEGRADING such as a repulsive self centered act like a threeway!!!

Jim
Hi Jim. smile

Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
The trick is to keep the disenchanted with the M spouse around long enough for the plans to work.

That is the tough part though. The resentment/damage can simply be too great and too much to overcome even with the best of plans.

A big problem is also getting a FWS in the true sense of the word...they are rare.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
And if the BS refuses to see any work the WS does until the WS agrees to degrade themselves, then recovery will not happen either.

Agree. To ask a spouse to do something she doesn't want to do is a renters approach that will not bring the BH what he wants. It only fosters aversion, which is the exact opposite of what he seeks.
Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
The trick is to keep the disenchanted with the M spouse around long enough for the plans to work.

One of the biggest mistakes I see made is when a betrayed spouse doesn't set any standard for recovery. Once the affair ends, he will think he is out of the woods and everything goes back to normal.

Well, it is not "normal" at all. It is simply a crippled version of the very bad marriage that led to the affair in the first place.

There has to actually be a PLAN for recovery or there is no point. With no plan, a repeat affair and/or years of misery can be the only result.

This is why I tell BS's they need to sit down the WS after the affair ends and tell them "I won't stay in a loveless, sick marriage. Here is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." And then roll out this program.


I encourage them to sell the program in a way that conveys to the WS that the goal is to create romantic love.

There is no point in staying, otherwise, unless you are a masochist. But setting such a standard benefits everyone because the result is a recovered marriage. The BS needs to LEAD his marriage out of the sewer. Marital recovery does not happen by accident.

And if the WS wont' commmit to recovery? Then what do you have to lose if you get divorced? Nothing except years of heartache. A WS who won't commit to recovering the marriage is dangerous. You are better off without her.
Best post ever, MelodyLane.

When it comes down to it, because Prisca and I haven't experienced infidelity, we probably don't have a lot to say to those who have. But this issue touches on me deeply. I hate to think of people who have been through all of the pain of infidelity and then go on to settle for a lousy marriage that keeps dragging the pain out for years. If they go through all that pain and then they only get as far as the painful place where Prisca and I started earlier this year, then that hardly seems worth it.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.

Well, the "act" that sparked this topic was a request for a 3-way, which I think most people would label immoral at best, certainly should be illegal, and is definitely dangerous to the marriage.

That's odd, I didn't suggest a 3 way, I clearly read all the prior posts, unlike the suggestion that said I didn't. So to those who are making that untrue assumption need to stop it now.

I clearly said if the request was respectful, which I believe falls under the definition of loving. I also clearly said it wasn't immoral, illegal or dangerous. And further, it was freely given the OM.

If all of those are true, and the WW STILL refuses to fulfill that respectful request, she is going to have a hard time convincing her BH that she cares more for him than she does the OM.

How many WW have come here saying that sex with the OM was exciting, but they didn't have that excitement in the marriage with their husband. So their husband has respectfully requested time and time again that she demonstrate some enthusiasm for sex with her husband.

But she cannot or will not do that.

If her BH knows she was enthusiastic about sex with the OM, but she is unwilling to be enthusiastic about sex with her BH, then what message is she sending her BH?

He's not making an unreasonable, degrading, dangerous or illegal request. Yet he's continually denied enthusiastic SF. Something that she offered the OM.

Are you going to keep telling me he's being unreasaonable?
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.

Well, the "act" that sparked this topic was a request for a 3-way, which I think most people would label immoral at best, certainly should be illegal, and is definitely dangerous to the marriage.

That's odd, I've been through this thread and I don't see where the act is enumerated.

I do see where I and others have suggested the respectful request was NOT for something like a threesome.

Therefore, your criticism of what I've written is misplaced.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
And if the BS refuses to see any work the WS does until the WS agrees to degrade themselves, then recovery will not happen either.

Agree. To ask a spouse to do something she doesn't want to do is a renters approach that will not bring the BH what he wants. It only fosters aversion, which is the exact opposite of what he seeks.

Likewise, refusing to meet a respectful request for meeting an EN that is not degrading, disrespectful, illegal, nor immoral is equally a renter's position.
Well, is the H meeting her EN's? Is he spending 15-20 hours of UA time with her? Is he doing everything in his power to help his wife fall back in love with him?

Affairs usually occur because the AP is meeting needs that were not being met in the marriage. It is very rare for a woman who is in a loving, fulfilling marriage to have an affair.

If her BH isn't willing to do the work necessary to repair the marriage and create an environment where his wife will be able to fall in love with him again, then yes, he is still being unreasonable if he expects his wife to just suddenly be enthusiastic about having SF with him again. Women generally are not enthusiastic about SF unless they are in love.

It takes two people to create a loving relationship, and both partners have to be willing to put in the work.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.

Well, the "act" that sparked this topic was a request for a 3-way, which I think most people would label immoral at best, certainly should be illegal, and is definitely dangerous to the marriage.

That's odd, I've been through this thread and I don't see where the act is enumerated.

I do see where I and others have suggested the respectful request was NOT for something like a threesome.

Therefore, your criticism of what I've written is misplaced.

I was referring to the original thread by Ookfish that started this entire debate in the first place (not this particular thread, but several others). Her H was asking her to do things like have a threesome.

Of course, in order for recovery to occur, the couple needs to find their way back to a loving, mutually fulfilling SF life, but that doesn't just happen by itself, and it won't happen if the wife isn't in love with her H.
That's part of just compensation. If the WW has betrayed the marriage, she has to prove she is committed to the marriage. She may have to go it alone for a serious period of time to demonstrate to her BH that's she's both a safe and committed spouse.

Now she can't do that forever. But I believe a WW may need to do it longer than a BW has to do it because she's the one who has inflicted severe emotional damage on her BH.

A WW cannot just say in word and deed, "I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."

If she hasn't demonstrated that she's corrected her approach to the marriage, and sold her husband on the fact that she's a safe spouse and the MB program is the way he can get his needs met, we can't fault the BH for wanting out given his WW is not willing to put forth the effort to demonstrate the benefits of the program in a fashion he buys.

If you want the BH to be a buyer, one has to offer something that he's willing to buy.

This goes along with what MelodyLane is saying. The BH shouldn't set low standards. Most BH's should have higher standards. The consequence of following that advice is harder work for the WW to sell her husband on the MB plan.

This is where a trained and unbiased 3rd party is the best one to determine when enough is enough.

The WW may think she's done enough when it's not even close as measured by the BH. Likewise, the BH may think she's done nothing, when she's been working hard.

The trained 3rd party can judge if the effort has been on the right things, and if there really has been a sufficient effort.

The truth is probably in the middle, and it may take an unbiased 3rd party professional to help both see the perspective of the other.

But to expect 15 hours UA immediately after the WW has confessed her affair and established a solid NC is unrealistic.

What may be realistic is that she has to provide a credible, verifiable NC for a period of time, as well as plan A before it's even realistic to expect him to buy into the plan.

Any slip ups on her part reset that clock.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Agree. To ask a spouse to do something she doesn't want to do is a renters approach that will not bring the BH what he wants. It only fosters aversion, which is the exact opposite of what he seeks.

Likewise, refusing to meet a respectful request for meeting an EN that is not degrading, disrespectful, illegal, nor immoral is equally a renter's position. [/quote]

It most certainly IS NOT. It is a renter's trait to agree to make sacrifices that please only one person at your expense. A BUYER will refuse to do anything that brings unhappiness into the marriage. The value of any "request" is completely contingent upon making BOTH parties happy, not just one. It doesn't matter how "respectful" a request is made, if it makes the receiver unhappy, it should not be done. PERIOD.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Where does Marriage Builders teach this "respectful request" stuff? I can't find the policy where you have to grant all your spouse's requests if they are made respectfully.

I can find the basic concept that says that if you refuse to take no for an answer you are making a selfish demand and it will destroy your spouse's love for you. You can have any reason in the world for refusing to take no for an answer, including the idea that your request was sincere and respectful, and it still doesn't change the fact that you are making a demand.
So when the WW judges if the request is "fair" or not isn't she acting as a renter according to your definition.

One consequence of a WW having an affair is she just may turn her BH from the buyer he was before she had her affair into a renter.

Let's assume we had two buyers in the marriage. The WW is the first to go "renter" and says because I'm not getting my needs met, it's only "fair" for me to go outside my marriage. She may even be freeloader. Certainly she's no longer a buyer.

So let's not forget that having an affair is proof the WW is a not a buyer. So any decision she makes is likely from the renter or freeloader perspective. We see that when WW basically want the affair forgotten and they want their husband's "tuned up" so they don't have another affair.

The BH WILL have this perception. I doubt many BH's are going to take the news of his wife's affair as proof she's a buyer in the marriage. Chances are, he's going to seriously doubt his status as a buyer at this point. He may consider himself a renter. He may go back and forth, renter, buyer, renter, buyer, he may even go to the freeloader status for a while.

The situation the WW has placed herself in is that she wants her husband to be a buyer when she's not fully demonstrated in word and deed that she is a buyer.

So when he makes his respectful request for something that is not immoral, fattening, illegal, banned in TX, or degrading, and she says no with the BH knowing it's something she provided the OM because the tapes from the PI showed her engaging in that very act, do you think he's going to be convinced she's a buyer in the marriage and that she's turning down the respectful request because it degrades her?

Even if it's true, she has a credibility deficit she has to overcome with her own actions. She has placed herself in that unfortunate situation where she has to prove a negative. It is unlikely her BH is going to view her as innocent until proven guilty. Instead, she has placed herself in the camp of guilty until proven innocent due to her choice to have an affair.

It may not seem fair, but then buyers don't operate on the notion of fair. The burden is on the WW to find a way to convince her BH that she is a buyer and looking to meet his ENs in an enthusiastic means.

We can discuss how wrong the BH is for feeling the way he does after being betrayed. But the bottom line is, the WW has to demonstrate she is safe and a committed buyer in the marriage before she can expect that he'll return to being a buyer.

She starts with a deep credibility gap due to her personal choices.
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.
EE, it is my understanding that Plan A is primarily a tool used by the BS to end the A and get the WS to recommit to the M. I know it has been suggested that the WS could do a form of a Plan A with a BS who withdraws from the M after discovering the A, but that is not the norm.

The fact is, most of the time, it is the BS who comes to this site looking for support, and Plan A is presented as way to get the WS to want to end the A and stay and work on the marriage.

My H did a form of Plan A with me, though we weren't on this site yet, so it wasn't exactly a typical MB Plan A. When I was in my A, I was not in love with my H. If he had come to me and told me that I had to prove my love to him by implementing a Plan A, I would have thought he was crazy. I probably would have left. My M hadn't been good for a long time (and yes, my H was well aware of this and we had many discussions about it prior to my A) and when my A started, I was pretty much done with the whole thing. If my H had expected me to stay, without any reasonable expectation that our M would be any better, then I doubt I would have stayed.

What you are asking for would be ideal - the WW who immediately recognizes the error of her ways and turns away from the A with no incentive whatsoever and decides to commit herself fully to her H and her M with no work on his part whatsoever, but it rarely happens that way. Women are far more likely to have an A after determining there is no hope at all for their M, so if he wants the M to succeed, then the BH is going to have to show his WW a willingness to work on the issues in the M that led to the A in the first place.

And no, this is not a justification for a woman to have an A. An A is never the answer to a bad M. But it is reality that a woman has generally checked out of her M emotionally before she has an A, and recovery is going to be far less likely if you expect her to do all of the work to save a M that she isn't emotionally invested in to a man that she in all likelihood isn't in love with at the moment.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
The WW may think she's done enough when it's not even close as measured by the BH. Likewise, the BH may think she's done nothing, when she's been working hard.

If that is the case, then she is not working SMART. Many spouses just do what they THINK the other wants and they miss the mark. The solution is to do it in a way that achieves that purpose.

Quote
The trained 3rd party can judge if the effort has been on the right things, and if there really has been a sufficient effort.

Agree with this. But it really isnt hard to understand the policy of Undivided attention and the 4 intimate emotional needs. It will be up to each spouse to tell the other if they are effectively meeting their needs or not.
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Quote
But to expect 15 hours UA immediately after the WW has confessed her affair and established a solid NC is unrealistic.

They should start doing this [it is 20+ hours in this situation] ASAP after they have decided to recover the marriage. Waiting will make it worse. Once the WS ends the affair, it will be important to fill the vacuum with something good - OR something bad will ensue.

Quote
What may be realistic is that she has to provide a credible, verifiable NC for a period of time, as well as plan A before it's even realistic to expect him to buy into the plan.

Any slip ups on her part reset that clock.

Having 20+ hours per week of UA helps her maintain NC. But this is not about "trust" this is about establishing a completely transparent lifestyle that makes it virtually impossible to contact her affair partner again.

It is not good to WAIT for this, but to make the WS demonstrate marriage building behavior NOW, not later. If she won't do that, then he has no reason to hang around.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"Plan A should never involve sacrifice. In other words, you can be as encouraging as possible about your willingness to meet his emotional needs without actually doing it, and still be in Plan A. And you can defend yourself from your husband's abuse (calling the police or calling his lover's husband) and still be in Plan A. The point of plan A is that you are making an effort to do your part to make your marriage successful, but from my perspective, it should never involve personal sacrifice."
Originally Posted by from poster over on the weekend forum
"I disagree with the MB opinion that sacrifice does not tend to create appreciation. My father worked 3 jobs to support our family and my mother always took care of my father, my sisters, and myself before satisfying her own wants and needs. I have profound appreciation and love for these efforts. I have seen many successful marriages that involve sacrifice in raising autistic and handicapped children. In my marital experience during the first few years, I sacrificed enthusiastically to try to attain a peaceful and loving sanctuary for our marriage.

These efforts failed because it seems that the more I gave, more was expected of me. It seems the priority of our marriage is that her needs (and all her wants, there is a difference between wants and needs) were met when she wanted and how she wanted TO THE LETTER. Otherwise the destructive cycles continue. She has always had the freedom to do what she wants. Should one not show gratitude for this and all the other blessings the good Lord has bestowed upon us?"

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"If sacrifice was all you say it was, we wouldn't be talking about it. A sacrifice is a unilateral gift, something that doesn't require appreciation because it's given unconditionally. My point is that, while there is a place for sacrifice in life, in marriage it tends to be sore spot. When one spouse gives to the other sacrificially, even if it's done enthusiastically, it tends to be unappreciated. If appreciation is required, it's no longer unconditional or sacrifical. Something is expected in return that makes the act worth doing, which takes it out of the realm of sacrifice."
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

And if a woman calculates and discovers this would still be a net loss, you think the sacrifice is still called for?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"Plan A should never involve sacrifice. In other words, you can be as encouraging as possible about your willingness to meet his emotional needs without actually doing it, and still be in Plan A. And you can defend yourself from your husband's abuse (calling the police or calling his lover's husband) and still be in Plan A. The point of plan A is that you are making an effort to do your part to make your marriage successful, but from my perspective, it should never involve personal sacrifice."

Wow; I haven't seen that one before. Do you have a link to the original?
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So when the WW judges if the request is "fair" or not isn't she acting as a renter according to your definition.

One consequence of a WW having an affair is she just may turn her BH from the buyer he was before she had her affair into a renter.

Let's assume we had two buyers in the marriage. The WW is the first to go "renter" and says because I'm not getting my needs met, it's only "fair" for me to go outside my marriage. She may even be freeloader. Certainly she's no longer a buyer.

Exactly. You now understand how destructive the notion of "fairness" is and how that renters practice can lead to affairs, etc. That is how it works, the renter will make sacrifices. And when equal sacrifices ["fairness"] are not forthcoming, the renter feels ENTITLED to keep score. This is how many affairs begin: with the thinking that "by God, I have given and given so now it is my turn!!!"

The solution is to END renters practices, not to indulge them. The couples have to learn to never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other.
Understand. Yet the emotional cost Dr H talks about is a form of sacrifice. Otherwise, he wouldn't call for plan A to be of a fixed period.

So while plan A isn't about making sacrifices, plan A is a form of sacrifice itself. I think you would have a hard time proving that plan A is not a form of sacrifice. I believe it is. One in plan A is giving to their spouse without expectation of anything in return. That is Dr H's definition of sacrifice.

But it has a definite end because Dr H knows that sacrifice is not a sustainable way to run an ongoing marriage.

I'm not suggesting that the WS make sacrifices. What I am suggesting is they may have to be in the plan A stage, which is meeting EN's and avoiding LB's without expectation of anything in return for a period of time.

I see so many asking about what the BH is doing, is he engaging in 15+ hours, or meeting needs.

I agree, the BH will have to ultimately get on board with those things. I've never argued against that. What I have asked about, and it's not been answer to my satisfaction is how does the WW provide credible evidence when the evidence the BH has indicates she is not credible?

How does she provide a convincing case of the value of being a buyer in the marriage when she's demonstrated something far less than being a buyer in her own actions?
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

And if a woman calculates and discovers this would still be a net loss, you think the sacrifice is still called for?

Nope, if she thinks the affair partner is worth more than her husband, then she's not even going to consider her husband, regardless how well he plan A's.

Now I don't think a WW or WH is in any place to make a sound judgment. But we are not allowed to judge for them.

Any WW, WH, BW or BH can do the marriage calculus and decide if their spouse is worth the effort.

Like I've said before, if I'm betrayed again, I've already done the math and a WW is not worth my continued effort. A WW would have to present a pretty compelling case to get me to change my mind and she has about a nanosecond from the time I find out she's a WW.

Any hint of anything other than remorse and repentance, any blame, excuses or anything of the sort will only serve as a confirmation the marital calculus was done correctly and the right answer was found.

We all make value judgments and it would take a pretty exceptional wayward for me to find them worthy to take back after such a selfish destructive act.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So while plan A isn't about making sacrifices, plan A is a form of sacrifice itself. I think you would have a hard time proving that plan A is not a form of sacrifice. I believe it is. One in plan A is giving to their spouse without expectation of anything in return. That is Dr H's definition of sacrifice.

I don't agree it is about giving without return. The point of Plan A is to only demonstrate a willingness to meet the needs of the WS in the FUTURE if the affair is ended. It is not supposed to be about sacrifice at all. In fact, I would assert it is almost impossible to meet the needs of a WS who is in an affair.

If a BS is engaging in sacrifice, he needs to STOP!

This is a misunderstanding of many BS' that Plan A means they are supposed to "meet needs." This perspective only leads to greater frustration when they see it is next to impossible. They then are reluctant to go to Plan B because they under the illusion they have not done a good plan A, because they have misdefined it as "need meetin."
Quote
I clearly said if the request was respectful

Who determines if the request was respectful?
After the affair has ended, the time for Plan A is OVER. It is time to get to work or get out. The WS either commits to a plan of recovery or the BS is damning himself to a death of thousand cuts.

If there is no plan of recovery, there is no use in going on. This is why I tell you BS to sit down and say, dear, this is what it will take to earn my forgiveness and keep me interested in this marriage.

Otherwise there is no point on going forward unless the BS is a masochist who is addicted to PAIN.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

And if a woman calculates and discovers this would still be a net loss, you think the sacrifice is still called for?

Nope, if she thinks the affair partner is worth more than her husband, then she's not even going to consider her husband, regardless how well he plan A's.

I was not talking about calculating between the husband and the lover. I'm talking only about deciding if feeling degraded by her husband is worth it.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"Plan A should never involve sacrifice. In other words, you can be as encouraging as possible about your willingness to meet his emotional needs without actually doing it, and still be in Plan A. And you can defend yourself from your husband's abuse (calling the police or calling his lover's husband) and still be in Plan A. The point of plan A is that you are making an effort to do your part to make your marriage successful, but from my perspective, it should never involve personal sacrifice."

Wow; I haven't seen that one before. Do you have a link to the original?

I can't find it. This post is somewhere over on the weekend forum. I saved it on 8-25-07 so I know it is older than that!
Originally Posted by SugarCane
How I wish that your post would be the end to the vindictive "you can never make it up to him" posts that have sprung up lately, but I don't suppose it will.

Nobody - WH or WW - can make the affair un-happen, but if you focus on what was given away you will never have a recovered marriage. The "giving your H what you gave the OM" issue has NOTHING to do with marriage building, which should be what we try to help with on this board.

I sympathise with those who feel the loss acutely, but for posters should not go from thread to thread targeting WWs to tell them that they can never make it up to their BHs.

That is not help with marriage building.

Actually, I don't find the BH's telling WW's that. It's the actual WW's who are saying, I can't make it up to my husband.

Phrases such as:

1. I could never confess to my BH, he would divorce me.

2. I just can't get excited about having SF with my husband. It just felt so special with my OM, I don't have those same feelings towards my BH.

3. Too much has happened, too much water under the bridge, I could never return to my BH.

4. My BH doesn't want to engage in MB. I can't convince him to enter MB so he will understand how his actions drove me to my affair. (I.E. I cannot take responsibility for my affair, I will blame others such as the OM who tricked me, or my BH who failed to meet my needs.)

5. I simply cannot open up to my husband. I cannot tell him how I really feel.

I see far more of this than I see of vindictive BH's. Most of the BH's I've seen here want or wanted to save their marriages, but their WW's had the above list of things they were unwilling or unable to overcome, or others not enumerated here.

So really, who is it who is putting up barriers, the BH's or the WW's who provide one after another excuse why they won't buy into the plan and confess, end contact with OM, own the affair, and follow the rules for successful marriage building?
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.

Well, the "act" that sparked this topic was a request for a 3-way, which I think most people would label immoral at best, certainly should be illegal, and is definitely dangerous to the marriage.

That's odd, I didn't suggest a 3 way, I clearly read all the prior posts, unlike the suggestion that said I didn't. So to those who are making that untrue assumption need to stop it now.

I clearly said if the request was respectful, which I believe falls under the definition of loving. I also clearly said it wasn't immoral, illegal or dangerous. And further, it was freely given the OM.

If all of those are true, and the WW STILL refuses to fulfill that respectful request, she is going to have a hard time convincing her BH that she cares more for him than she does the OM.

How many WW have come here saying that sex with the OM was exciting, but they didn't have that excitement in the marriage with their husband. So their husband has respectfully requested time and time again that she demonstrate some enthusiasm for sex with her husband.

But she cannot or will not do that.

If her BH knows she was enthusiastic about sex with the OM, but she is unwilling to be enthusiastic about sex with her BH, then what message is she sending her BH?

He's not making an unreasonable, degrading, dangerous or illegal request. Yet he's continually denied enthusiastic SF. Something that she offered the OM.

Are you going to keep telling me he's being unreasaonable?

Enlightened, can you tell us which Marriage Builders book, article, or posting talks about "reasonable requests"?

Reasonable is subjective. If one of the spouses feel it is unreasonable, it is. It's as simple as that. That's how Marriage Builders works.

Are you trying to further our and your understanding of the Marriage Builders program, or are we discussing your personal opinions?
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, sacrifice is called for in extreme situations.

Let me find the reference. I believe Dr H. has referred to plan A as a calculated sacrifice, or something that has the same essential meaning.

And if a woman calculates and discovers this would still be a net loss, you think the sacrifice is still called for?

Nope, if she thinks the affair partner is worth more than her husband, then she's not even going to consider her husband, regardless how well he plan A's.

I was not talking about calculating between the husband and the lover. I'm talking only about deciding if feeling degraded by her husband is worth it.

She has the same right to calculate as the BH has to calculate if he'll continue to tolerate the fact that his respectful requests for something that was freely given the OM and was something that is not immoral, degrading, fattening, illegal in TX, or dangerous is being denied him.

My point is they each get to calculate. And if she's given whatever, freely to the OM, his calculation may produce a different answer than hers.

It may continue to add up to him that she's still wayward and still thinks more of the OM than she does of him.

She's always free to deny the request and to think it's degrading.

However, the BH is equally valid if he think's HE IS BEING DEGRADED if his polite requests are denied when he knows she freely and without reservation offered the substance of that request to the OM, again with the same provisos I've previously given about safe, moral, legal and low or non-fat.

They each get a vote. Not just him, not just her, but both.

He is as free to believe he's being degraded by the refusal as she is to feel by his request.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I don't disagree with that. But as I've said before, it's going to be a tough sell to the BH to convince him that an act freely offered to the OM, one that wasn't illegal, immoral, or dangerous is being denied him after respectful requests.

So I simply caution the WW to put themselves in their BH's shoes and ask if she would buy that it's really degrading, or if she's simply harboring some sort of passive agressive resentment that prevents her from meeting a respectful request for something not illegal, immoral or dangerous that her husband has requested.

Because it just may look that way to a BH given the circumstances.

A WW is on shaky credibility, so I really believe it would be a tough sell at that point.

Well, the "act" that sparked this topic was a request for a 3-way, which I think most people would label immoral at best, certainly should be illegal, and is definitely dangerous to the marriage.

That's odd, I didn't suggest a 3 way, I clearly read all the prior posts, unlike the suggestion that said I didn't. So to those who are making that untrue assumption need to stop it now.

I clearly said if the request was respectful, which I believe falls under the definition of loving. I also clearly said it wasn't immoral, illegal or dangerous. And further, it was freely given the OM.

If all of those are true, and the WW STILL refuses to fulfill that respectful request, she is going to have a hard time convincing her BH that she cares more for him than she does the OM.

How many WW have come here saying that sex with the OM was exciting, but they didn't have that excitement in the marriage with their husband. So their husband has respectfully requested time and time again that she demonstrate some enthusiasm for sex with her husband.

But she cannot or will not do that.

If her BH knows she was enthusiastic about sex with the OM, but she is unwilling to be enthusiastic about sex with her BH, then what message is she sending her BH?

He's not making an unreasonable, degrading, dangerous or illegal request. Yet he's continually denied enthusiastic SF. Something that she offered the OM.

Are you going to keep telling me he's being unreasaonable?

Enlightened, can you tell us which Marriage Builders book, article, or posting talks about "reasonable requests"?

Reasonable is subjective. If one of the spouses feel it is unreasonable, it is. It's as simple as that. That's how Marriage Builders works.

Are you trying to further our and your understanding of the Marriage Builders program, or are we discussing your personal opinions?

Reasonable and unreasonable are subjective, that's my point.

Once the WW has fulfilled a request, her stance that it's unreasonable lacks credibility.

I'm not arguing the subjective nature of reasonable or unreasonable. I'm arguing how credible her argument may be given she thought it was reasonable enough to provide the OM.

It's hard to sell that she think's it's unreasonable once she's demonstrated that she found it to be a reasonable request to grant another man.

So I understand reasonable, unreasonable and subjective.

I simply argue that it MAY be unreasonable to expect he finds her refusal of his request reasonable after she's freely found fulfilling that request reasonable when presented by the OM.
The BS believes that their WS would of never have an affair.

The WS has an affair.

The WS does things with for to the OP that they never did for the BS.

The BS has to forgive the affair for recovery.

The BS has to let the accept he won the war but the OP got to win many battles that their WS wonļæ½t even let them try to do so post affair.



This BS is getting cheated twice from the same affair.


The BS has to accept getting cheated on two levels. As in two levels as if the WW had an OC. Or three levels when combining a PA, refuse to give what the OP got and WW had OC.

Maybe this is why an OC is a deal breaker for some BHļæ½s for it makes the affair a multiple level betrayal. Maybe most BHļæ½s can only handle one level of betrayal.

How does the BS accept that they never will get what the OP got from their WS?

How is the BS to be convinced that never getting what the WS gave the OP does not keep the BS in second place in the SF department?

I donļæ½t know statistically how much is matters from a male perspective verses female view. But it seems to matter more to a male that he never got what the OP got.

Iļæ½m not against a BH coming to terms with a WW that wonļæ½t do for her BH what she gladly did for the OM. I just have not seen a case presented that is not 100% flawless.

Like Einsteinļæ½s Law of Relativity and the String Theory are not 100% flawless.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
[However, the BH is equally valid if he think's HE IS BEING DEGRADED if his polite requests are denied when he knows she freely and without reservation offered the substance of that request to the OM, again with the same provisos I've previously given about safe, moral, legal and low or non-fat.

Then he is clearly not using the standard proscribed by the POJA, which is never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other. Whether the request is "polite", "respectful" or whatever is irrelevant. What matters is if it makes BOTH sides happy. If not, then it shouldn't be done.

Just because he says he feels "degraded" misses the point once again, because it doesn't take her feelings into account. The feelings of BOTH SIDES have to be taken into account.
So, what would you suggest the WW do in this case? Agree to do something with her BH that she finds uncomfortable, disgusting, unsatisfying, whatever? Basically, do it even though she doesn't want to, simply because she did it during her A with the OM (a time when she most decidedly was not thinking straight and was in all likelihood doing many things, including having an A, that she should not have been doing)?

What do you think the result will be if the WW does something she does not want to do just to appease her BH?

Do you think it will help her fall in love with him? Do you think it will make their marriage stronger and happier?
The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship. Did she ever give that to the OM?

There is no commitment in an A. There are no promises. There is no desire to love the AP and meet their needs (including SF) and be a companion to them for the rest of their lives.

All there is in an A is lies, deceit, and a lot of cheap rutting around. A's are entirely selfish.

Does the BS really want what the AP got? Really. I mean, when it comes right down to it, all the AP got was a bunch of junk.
Originally Posted by writer1
The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship.

That is not what a BS will think, writer, nor is it likely the reason a WS stays in the beginning and it will not be for quite some time.
Originally Posted by writer1
There is no commitment in an A. There are no promises. There is no desire to love the AP and meet their needs (including SF) and be a companion to them for the rest of their lives.

Commitments and promises were broken to the BS. Nothing the BS got showed desire, love, care, commitment, etc. That is why a BS struggles and we ride the rollercoaster.
I've suggested that she rebuild her credibility before she take on the task of trying to change her BH's mind.

The issue is not the request. The issue is that her credibility is non-existent at the point she rejects the polite request.

Until her credibility is restored, no action would be ultimately satisfying.

Originally Posted by writer1
So, what would you suggest the WW do in this case? Agree to do something with her BH that she finds uncomfortable, disgusting, unsatisfying, whatever? Basically, do it even though she doesn't want to, simply because she did it during her A with the OM (a time when she most decidedly was not thinking straight and was in all likelihood doing many things, including having an A, that she should not have been doing)?

What do you think the result will be if the WW does something she does not want to do just to appease her BH?

Do you think it will help her fall in love with him? Do you think it will make their marriage stronger and happier?
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by writer1
The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship.

That is not what a BS will think, writer, nor is it likely the reason a WS stays in the beginning and it will not be for quite some time.

True. I was directing this specifically to The Road, who has been on this site for quite some time and still seems to hold a lot of resentment. I don't know his story, since he never shares it, but he doesn't seem to be in the "beginning" of this process anymore, and yet I see a lot of resentment in his posts even after being here for a number of years.
Originally Posted by writer1
The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship. Did she ever give that to the OM?

There is no commitment in an A. There are no promises. There is no desire to love the AP and meet their needs (including SF) and be a companion to them for the rest of their lives.

All there is in an A is lies, deceit, and a lot of cheap rutting around. A's are entirely selfish.

Does the BS really want what the AP got? Really. I mean, when it comes right down to it, all the AP got was a bunch of junk.

And such promises were demonstrated to be worthless after the affair, therefore it's difficult to present a credible argument that the WW is giving her BH something special she didn't provide the OM.

With respect to commitment, she gave her BH exactly the same level of commitment she gave the OM by having the affair.

Her broken vows serve to demonstrate how worthless those vows were to her. They demonstrate how ordinary she considers her BH.

Her actions speak far louder than the words of her vows, and those actions do not indicate a credible commitment after the affair is discovered.

A BH would be well advised not to trust the words of the WW, even if she's saying she's committed to restoring the marriage. After all, she already vowed she would forsake all others, and we know how much that was worth.

Now she MAY prove by her actions that she does value her BH and her family, but she is not credible simply because she says the right words.
Here is a watch out for ANY BS who really wants to recover his marriage. NEVER allow your spouse to agree to something that makes them unhappy. Do not go along with it. INSIST on finding a solution the other is enthusiastic about. If not, you are just harming your marriage further.

This is a huge mistake that erodes the love in a marriage and will further cripple a bad one. It was this kind of sacrificial thinking that crippled the marriage in the first place.

It is better to get into the habit NOW of never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other spouse. BOTH spouses should start practicing this NOW as part of a committment to recovering the marriage.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I've suggested that she rebuild her credibility before she take on the task of trying to change her BH's mind.

The issue is not the request. The issue is that her credibility is non-existent at the point she rejects the polite request.

Until her credibility is restored, no action would be ultimately satisfying.

Originally Posted by writer1
So, what would you suggest the WW do in this case? Agree to do something with her BH that she finds uncomfortable, disgusting, unsatisfying, whatever? Basically, do it even though she doesn't want to, simply because she did it during her A with the OM (a time when she most decidedly was not thinking straight and was in all likelihood doing many things, including having an A, that she should not have been doing)?

What do you think the result will be if the WW does something she does not want to do just to appease her BH?

Do you think it will help her fall in love with him? Do you think it will make their marriage stronger and happier?

And how does she rebuild her credibility?

By doing things that you phrase as a "polite request" which may not seem polite to her at all.

And who is this H who is making "polite requests" and still being turned down? I don't recall a WW coming on here stating that her H was making polite, perfectly reasonable requests for SF and she simply wasn't able to fulfill them. That wasn't the original situation that sparked all this interest in what the WW was willing to give the OM vs. what she was willing to give her BH.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship. Did she ever give that to the OM?

There is no commitment in an A. There are no promises. There is no desire to love the AP and meet their needs (including SF) and be a companion to them for the rest of their lives.

All there is in an A is lies, deceit, and a lot of cheap rutting around. A's are entirely selfish.

Does the BS really want what the AP got? Really. I mean, when it comes right down to it, all the AP got was a bunch of junk.

And such promises were demonstrated to be worthless after the affair, therefore it's difficult to present a credible argument that the WW is giving her BH something special she didn't provide the OM.

With respect to commitment, she gave her BH exactly the same level of commitment she gave the OM by having the affair.

Her broken vows serve to demonstrate how worthless those vows were to her. They demonstrate how ordinary she considers her BH.

Her actions speak far louder than the words of her vows, and those actions do not indicate a credible commitment after the affair is discovered.

A BH would be well advised not to trust the words of the WW, even if she's saying she's committed to restoring the marriage. After all, she already vowed she would forsake all others, and we know how much that was worth.

Now she MAY prove by her actions that she does value her BH and her family, but she is not credible simply because she says the right words.

I wasn't talking about mere words. I was talking about a demonstrated commitment. Writing that NC letter, setting up extraordinary precautions, being completely O&H with her BH, etc. These are things she can DO to start gaining credibility.

Simply engaging in SF acts that she finds offensive or unpleasant (no matter how reasonable they may seem to her BH) will not improve her credibility.
Quote
A WW cannot just say in word and deed, "I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."

I don't know a single true FWS on this thread that is saying that. This is a straw man at best. And yes, true FWS's are rare. But there are some on this site, and there are some who have posted on this thread. And as important as it is for a WS/FWS to do whatever they can to make amends.....at some point the BS decides to A) have a loving restored M B) divorce and move on or C)stay married but make sure the WS never forgets how awful they are (indeed let's make sure NO FWS forgets how awful they are) and hold onto the pain like grim death. I can understand all three responses, but honestly, just like I lose all sympathy for a WS who won't confess or take responsibility, after awhile it's hard to feel sorry for someone who is so very enamored with their bitterness. Now, several who read this will reconcile what I am saying be deciding that I haven't earned my "F" after all and am still a skank. But the one and only person whose understand of my "F" status really matters lives in this house with me, and he KNOWS my heart.

I remember the question being bantied about here before: do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Well, do you want to have a threesome/anal sex/ orgy/ whips and chains/ homemade you tube videos/ etc. or do you want to be married?
I know this is not a 'funny' topic but LOL luri. I have to go run errands.
Combining my answers to both write1 and MelodyLane.

That's the catch 22 isn't it. Both denying the act and providing it don't resolve the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that her credibility is destroyed.

As I said before, I'm not talking about the case folks seem to want to link this to. I'm talking about all those cases where we have a WW who says she was enthusiastic about sex with the OM, but just can't get excited about ANY sort of sex with her H.

So her husband has been making respectful requests for sex every day of the week. He knows she met the OM for a "nooner" every day, so frequency isn't some sort of immoral act. Yet she still refuses to engage in SF. She simply says no, says she doesn't "feel" it, but provides no input to her BH regarding what would get her in the mood. She simply expects her BH to accept she doesn't want it, ever, and for him to simply wait until she tells him the secret combination that apparently only the OM knows.

So the BH, wanting SF is thought to be unreasonable because he wants sex and wants the same or gasp even MORE enthusiasm than was presented to the OM in the tapes provided him by the PI.

So the BH has seen her approach SF with the OM with abandon, and he's continually told that he's being selfish for wanting a mutually enjoyable and enthusiastic sex life.

She has a credibility gap at this point, and tell him no does nothing to improve her credibility in light of the other evidence.

I'm sure I could find all sorts of threads where the WW says she doesn't want SF with her husband, but gushed about how great it was with the OM.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's certainly not an unrealistic expectation of her husband to want a fulfilling sex life. But he's supposed to accept that as the state even though the OM was having what the BH would consider a very fulfilling sex life.

It may very well be the WW needs to figure out why she is unwilling or unable to give her BH the keys she gave the OM with respect to unlocking her sexuality.

As long as she withholds those keys, she lacks credibility.

Imagine how many BH's were sexually unfulfilled, but DID NOT have affairs, and they witness their wives opening up to the OM, but are still adamant in their refusal to the BH. So the WW has gone off and had her affair. Meanwhile, the BH's sex life is the same or worse, and it wasn't fulfilling prior to her affair.

Is he really going to believe she's a buyer in the marriage as long as there is the same or more refusal than prior to her affair?

Chances are, she was refusing him just plain old vanilla sex before her affair, and given she's probably still under the control of her taker, what are the chances she's suddenly willing to see her husband's desire as normal and healthy and a legitimate emotional need.

If she didn't before the affair, it's unlikely she will after the affair. Certainly telling him no isn't going to convince him that she loves him. After all, he didn't feel loved before the affair when she refused him. So it's unlikely she'll feel loved after.

So what is she doing to address her obvious contradiction with respect to the legitimacy of meeting her BH's vs the OM's need for SF?

Instead of saying no, what is she offering that her husband will find as good if not better?

If she's saying no to ALL sex, then is the problem really the BH? Or is it her view of her BH?
That seance I had a couple of weeks ago where I channeled Tawanda from Fried Green Tomatoes has really affected me.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
The Road, has it ever occurred to you that the WW is giving her BH much MORE than she ever gave the OM. When she makes the decision to stay and recover the M, she is giving her BH a lifetime commitment of love, caring, and companionship. Did she ever give that to the OM?

There is no commitment in an A. There are no promises. There is no desire to love the AP and meet their needs (including SF) and be a companion to them for the rest of their lives.

All there is in an A is lies, deceit, and a lot of cheap rutting around. A's are entirely selfish.

Does the BS really want what the AP got? Really. I mean, when it comes right down to it, all the AP got was a bunch of junk.

And such promises were demonstrated to be worthless after the affair, therefore it's difficult to present a credible argument that the WW is giving her BH something special she didn't provide the OM.

With respect to commitment, she gave her BH exactly the same level of commitment she gave the OM by having the affair.

Her broken vows serve to demonstrate how worthless those vows were to her. They demonstrate how ordinary she considers her BH.

Her actions speak far louder than the words of her vows, and those actions do not indicate a credible commitment after the affair is discovered.

A BH would be well advised not to trust the words of the WW, even if she's saying she's committed to restoring the marriage. After all, she already vowed she would forsake all others, and we know how much that was worth.

Now she MAY prove by her actions that she does value her BH and her family, but she is not credible simply because she says the right words.

I wasn't talking about mere words. I was talking about a demonstrated commitment. Writing that NC letter, setting up extraordinary precautions, being completely O&H with her BH, etc. These are things she can DO to start gaining credibility.

Simply engaging in SF acts that she finds offensive or unpleasant (no matter how reasonable they may seem to her BH) will not improve her credibility.

So if she's saying no to ALL sex with her BH, then how is she building credibility? How is she showing him love, care and the willingness to be a buyer in the marriage?

After all, it's you that is assuming the requests are offensive or unpleasant. What if they are not. What if he simply wants plain vanilla sex with a side order or reasonable enthusiasm and he's still told no.

Again, everyone is ASSUMING the requests are degrading, something they would find unacceptable, or that the BH is the primary trouble maker.

Who says those are valid or even reasonable assumptions?
OHHHHH, now THIS is different. I assumed that this thread was about the same old "she pretended to be a six legged alien with the OM but won't do it with me on camera," routine.

Now, not having SF at all is a whole other thing, in my mind. Honestly, this is something I can't relate to because SF is one of my top EN's. Yeah, if I had refused to have any SF whatsoever with DH after my PA......that would need to be addressed. Because "normal" SF really is like every other need, according to Harley, so saying a spouse would meet a, b, and c....but not SF 'cause that's different, isn't MB.

That makes more sense. I was thinking you meant she needed to suck it up even if it was dirty and degrading.

No, regular sex is pretty simple. Either all EN's are valid or they aren't. And if they are, then SF isn't exempt.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
A WW cannot just say in word and deed, "I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."

I don't know a single true FWS on this thread that is saying that. This is a straw man at best. And yes, true FWS's are rare. But there are some on this site, and there are some who have posted on this thread. And as important as it is for a WS/FWS to do whatever they can to make amends.....at some point the BS decides to A) have a loving restored M B) divorce and move on or C)stay married but make sure the WS never forgets how awful they are (indeed let's make sure NO FWS forgets how awful they are) and hold onto the pain like grim death. I can understand all three responses, but honestly, just like I lose all sympathy for a WS who won't confess or take responsibility, after awhile it's hard to feel sorry for someone who is so very enamored with their bitterness. Now, several who read this will reconcile what I am saying be deciding that I haven't earned my "F" after all and am still a skank. But the one and only person whose understand of my "F" status really matters lives in this house with me, and he KNOWS my heart.

I remember the question being bantied about here before: do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Well, do you want to have a threesome/anal sex/ orgy/ whips and chains/ homemade you tube videos/ etc. or do you want to be married?

Now if you are going to limit the topic to what's been presented on this thread, then you have to exclude the requests for threesomes etc as well, as I clearly am not talking about that.

However, others want to bring in things from other threads. If that's valid, then I'm allowed to bring in the attitudes of WW's I've seen here, which include refusal to have any sort of sexual relationship with their BH, or the refusal to confess, or to engage in a dialog, or to put into place protections, etc.

You cannot play the card that you've not seen something in this thread to counter what I've said if you are not willing to play the same card on those who've tried to bring in elements from other threads.

So let's have a consistent set of rules. If I'm not allowed to reference WW's from other threads, others cannot reference threads where the BH wanted threesomes, etc.

I'm willing to converse, but I don't want special rules placed on me that don't apply to others.
EE, if you had read some of the responses to OOK's thread, especially by a couple of brand new people, you'd know why we were so.....emphatic. They were pretty.....crass and uncalled for.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
EE, if you had read some of the responses to OOK's thread, especially by a couple of brand new people, you'd know why we were so.....emphatic. They were pretty.....crass and uncalled for.

But as you pointed out regarding the FWW's.

Do you understand why I'm calling double standard? Others are allowed to pick and choose from the user provided content here, but I'm singled out for doing the same.

Not to mention, since my very first post, I made it abundantly clear that what the BH was requesting would not be considered degrading or offensive, even by a Texas nun, LOL. I realize TX nun's don't have sex and have a side arm to keep it that way smile
Quote
It is better to get into the habit NOW of never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other spouse. BOTH spouses should start practicing this NOW as part of a committment to recovering the marriage.

Exactly. To do otherwise places the BH & WS in the same boat ook and her BH are in right now. Refusing to make POJA a part of the marriage has them where they are today. I don't think it's working for them.
Quote
I can understand all three responses, but honestly, just like I lose all sympathy for a WS who won't confess or take responsibility, after awhile it's hard to feel sorry for someone who is so very enamored with their bitterness.

I feel the same way. There is a point where a BS may be indulging in 'secondary gain' by continuing to strangle the A after it's already dead, something akin to wriggling a loose tooth that they keep wedging back into place long after it's ready to fall out.
I hesitated to post that because I have never been a BS. There is no way I can know what it is like. And though my DH went through enormous pain, he seemed from the get go to have this deep desire for us to be restored. Not to say there wasn't lots of anger.....but he really really wanted to shed it.

If I ever were a BS, I'd probably be the worst most irritating one ever.....it takes a strong person to go through that.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
A WW cannot just say in word and deed, "I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."

I don't know a single true FWS on this thread that is saying that. This is a straw man at best. And yes, true FWS's are rare. But there are some on this site, and there are some who have posted on this thread. And as important as it is for a WS/FWS to do whatever they can to make amends.....at some point the BS decides to A) have a loving restored M B) divorce and move on or C)stay married but make sure the WS never forgets how awful they are (indeed let's make sure NO FWS forgets how awful they are) and hold onto the pain like grim death. I can understand all three responses, but honestly, just like I lose all sympathy for a WS who won't confess or take responsibility, after awhile it's hard to feel sorry for someone who is so very enamored with their bitterness. Now, several who read this will reconcile what I am saying be deciding that I haven't earned my "F" after all and am still a skank. But the one and only person whose understand of my "F" status really matters lives in this house with me, and he KNOWS my heart.

I remember the question being bantied about here before: do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Well, do you want to have a threesome/anal sex/ orgy/ whips and chains/ homemade you tube videos/ etc. or do you want to be married?

Now if you are going to limit the topic to what's been presented on this thread, then you have to exclude the requests for threesomes etc as well, as I clearly am not talking about that.

However, others want to bring in things from other threads. If that's valid, then I'm allowed to bring in the attitudes of WW's I've seen here, which include refusal to have any sort of sexual relationship with their BH, or the refusal to confess, or to engage in a dialog, or to put into place protections, etc.

You cannot play the card that you've not seen something in this thread to counter what I've said if you are not willing to play the same card on those who've tried to bring in elements from other threads.

So let's have a consistent set of rules. If I'm not allowed to reference WW's from other threads, others cannot reference threads where the BH wanted threesomes, etc.

I'm willing to converse, but I don't want special rules placed on me that don't apply to others.

But you are referring here to the attitude of a WAYWARD wife who has in no way earned her former. The only WW's I've seen here who refuse to have any sort of SF with their BH are the ones who are still caught up in the fog and most likely still involved in an active A. I do not know of any FWW's on this site who refuse to meet their BH's needs or refuse to tell him the truth about their A or do any of the other things you listed. If they were refusing those things, then they would be considered a WW not a FWW.

And, if you're expecting an active WW to engage in Plan A type behavior or do any of the hard work necessary to recover her M, then you are living a pipe dream. This is where Plan A comes into play by the BH, to end the A and get the WW engaged in the M again so that she can want to start meeting his needs. If she falls in love with him again, then she will want to meet his EN's. That is the key.
Frankly, to me and to Dr Harley, it's not worth it to plan A a WW. He's said he would not try to win Joyce back if she betrayed him, and after my failed attempt years ago to win back a WW, I see the wisdom of his position.

Therefore, if anyone is doing a plan A in my scenario, it must be the WW trying to convince her BH that she's a safe spouse. Because in my calculus, after having tried and seen the nearly (I said nearly) impossible task of winning back a WW, I'd not try it again.

I would consider watching a repentant WW and if her actions were consistent with someone who proves with those actions she knows her affair was wrong and the importance of just compensation of her BH.

But to actively pursue a WW, I'd not suggest anyone take that route if they asked my opinion.

If they asked me HOW to pursue a WW, I'd suggest MB. But if they wanted to know if I would do that if I were in there shoes, I'd say no way.

So I view this from the perspective that the WW has ended her affair and wants to convince her BH to take her back.

That's a pretty common scenario here with respect to many if not most the WW's we see here.

If we see a WS, it's usually a WS who wants to win the BS back.

We usually see one of the two, either the BS or the WS. So if we have the WW, we probably do not have the BH here. Therefore, any advice will likely be to the WW with respect to winning back her abused, BH.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Frankly, to me and to Dr Harley, it's not worth it to plan A a WW. He's said he would not try to win Joyce back if she betrayed him, and after my failed attempt years ago to win back a WW, I see the wisdom of his position.

Therefore, if anyone is doing a plan A in my scenario, it must be the WW trying to convince her BH that she's a safe spouse. Because in my calculus, after having tried and seen the nearly (I said nearly) impossible task of winning back a WW, I'd not try it again.

I would consider watching a repentant WW and if her actions were consistent with someone who proves with those actions she knows her affair was wrong and the importance of just compensation of her BH.

But to actively pursue a WW, I'd not suggest anyone take that route if they asked my opinion.

If they asked me HOW to pursue a WW, I'd suggest MB. But if they wanted to know if I would do that if I were in there shoes, I'd say no way.

So I view this from the perspective that the WW has ended her affair and wants to convince her BH to take her back.

That's a pretty common scenario here with respect to many if not most the WW's we see here.

If we see a WS, it's usually a WS who wants to win the BS back.

We usually see one of the two, either the BS or the WS. So if we have the WW, we probably do not have the BH here. Therefore, any advice will likely be to the WW with respect to winning back her abused, BH.

And this WW, who wants to "win back" her BH and regain his love and respect would be more than willing to do what it takes to meet his EN's (including SF) so she really wouldn't fall into the scenario you have set forth here in the first place.

I have seen a few WW's come here recently who have not ended their A's yet or necessarily even told their BH that there has been an A. They seem to be the ones who are not willing to meet the need for SF.

The only WW I've seen on here lately who wants to recover her M but is having difficulty doing so because of issues with SF is Ookfish, and her difficulties revolve around the fact that her H is expecting things in the department of SF that she is very uncomfortable with and would be detrimental to the recovery of her M. But you don't want to talk about her.

You want to talk about some fictitious WW who is repentant and wants to recover her M and realizes the damage she has done to her BH, but still doesn't want to have normal, run-of-the-mill SF with him. Only problem is, I haven't seen anyone on this board (certainly not recently) who falls into that category. In fact, a truly repentant WW who is committed to working on the M wouldn't fall into that category. Why are we talking about a situation that doesn't even exist?

Like I said, many can say they want to recover their marriage, but how many actually do? How many actually confess, say they were wrong, own the affair, etc.

There are many WW's. There are few FWW.

I'm suggesting how a WW can transition to a FWW. But few choose to do that. And that is in no way fictional.

In fact, I'd suggest that while there are FWW, they are so rare as to almost seem to be the ones who are the fictional characters. No offense intended towards those who are truly FWW. In fact, I mean it as a compliment, because those who are truly FWW are a rare breed.

While WW's are a species in overpopulation status smile

Many come here SAYING they want to win their husbands back, but only a select few actually choose to do the work needed to do so. Instead, I read from most the myriad of excuses why they had the affair, why they won't meet the BH's needs, how they can't get their husband in to MB for a tune up, etc.

I've clearly spoken about WW's. The only time I've mentioned FWW is in response to your assertions about FWW's. Until they've actually done the work to the satifaction of their BH, they are still BHs.

And in some cases, they may NEVER be able to satisfy their BH. Then I simply suggest they become an XW.

But we cannot, nor should we assume that the BH is being unreasonable. There may be cases where the BH is unreasonable. But I don't think that's the normal circumstance. Most BH's I know simply want their WW's to end the affair, confess, be 100% open and honest and get down to the business of proving she is a safe and committed spouse.

I find few WW's outside the few here who have earned their FWW status who are actually willing to do that.

Even Dr H says it's rare for a WW to apologize for the affair. If that's the case, do those who fail to apologize really earn their FWW status? Or has the BH sacrificed the best for good enough?

In my calculus, I say he's made a sacrifice, and not one that will make his marriage any better.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Combining my answers to both write1 and MelodyLane.

That's the catch 22 isn't it. Both denying the act and providing it don't resolve the underlying issue. The underlying issue is that her credibility is destroyed.

It's an underlying issue, but its not a "catch 22." The solution to a credibility problem is to demonstrate credibility. Of course that is an issue in all adultery cases. Doesn't prevent recovery though.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I'm suggesting how a WW can transition to a FWW. But few choose to do that. And that is in no way fictional.

In fact, I'd suggest that while there are FWW, they are so rare as to almost seem to be the ones who are the fictional characters. No offense intended towards those who are truly FWW. In fact, I mean it as a compliment, because those who are truly FWW are a rare breed.

I don't know how "rare" that really is when we have several posting to this very thread.

Besides, rare is a relative term. Nor does it mean anything when we have someone who is truly sincere about recovering her marriage. That is what counts. When someone wants to do so, we have a solution. If you don't want to do that, it is her perogative.

Saying something is "rare" does not mean the person shouldn't try.


Quote
In my calculus, I say he's made a sacrifice, and not one that will make his marriage any better.


Not if he ends up with a great marriage. Sure, we take a chance staying with a cheater. But many of us here have great marriages to show for it.
Frankly, if someone is unapologetic, I don't see how you can ever have a great marriage. There is no confirmation that they ever think the affair was wrong.

Just because they ended it doesn't mean they ended it because they thought the BH was a better choice or that they thought what they did was wrong.

It could be their affair partner dumped them, and they are simply returning to their "Plan B" which was the BH.

That's why, even though Dr H says it's rare, one of my non-negotiables would be an apologetic WW. Anything less is simply unacceptable.

Ending the affair would not be sufficient. There would have to be real remorse and a real apology along the lines of David in Psalms 51.

Now that's the apology we should expect from a WS. That's the example right there. Anything less simply doesn't cut it with me.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Frankly, to me and to Dr Harley, it's not worth it to plan A a WW. He's said he would not try to win Joyce back if she betrayed him, and after my failed attempt years ago to win back a WW, I see the wisdom of his position.

Therefore, if anyone is doing a plan A in my scenario, it must be the WW trying to convince her BH that she's a safe spouse. Because in my calculus, after having tried and seen the nearly (I said nearly) impossible task of winning back a WW, I'd not try it again.

I would consider watching a repentant WW and if her actions were consistent with someone who proves with those actions she knows her affair was wrong and the importance of just compensation of her BH.

But to actively pursue a WW, I'd not suggest anyone take that route if they asked my opinion.

If they asked me HOW to pursue a WW, I'd suggest MB. But if they wanted to know if I would do that if I were in there shoes, I'd say no way.

So I view this from the perspective that the WW has ended her affair and wants to convince her BH to take her back.

That's a pretty common scenario here with respect to many if not most the WW's we see here.

If we see a WS, it's usually a WS who wants to win the BS back.

We usually see one of the two, either the BS or the WS. So if we have the WW, we probably do not have the BH here. Therefore, any advice will likely be to the WW with respect to winning back her abused, BH.

EE, I get it, I really do, and my calculus is really similar. But, the Harley's are adamant that:
* Plan A is not sustainable
* If you aren't willing to do something, you shouldn't include it in Plan A.

When trying to bring Prisca on board with this program, I remember on at least one occasion talking to Steve about something Prisca wanted me to do that made me feel uneasy. (We're not talking wild sex here; it was a different EN. smile ) Steve's response, even though I was in the midst of trying to work hard to meet my wife's EN's and show her how the program could benefit her, was still "Well, that's something that should be negotiated in the future, down the road." He did not even suggest that I do it anyway to win over my reluctant wife.

If I remember right, I thought it over and did it anyway. Then at the next downturn in our relationship, I was filled with resentment over it, resentment that wouldn't have even been there if I had just left it alone and looked for other ways to meet my wife's emotional needs.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Even Dr H says it's rare for a WW to apologize for the affair. If that's the case, do those who fail to apologize really earn their FWW status? Or has the BH sacrificed the best for good enough?

In my calculus, I say he's made a sacrifice, and not one that will make his marriage any better.

I was just reading posts from Dr. Harley on the private forum this morning, and noticed a post where he specifically said that not doing something is not a sacrifice. A sacrifice only happens when you do something you don't want to do.

There's more to that concept that I think he expresses better in later writings like some of his newer books. Have you read about type A and type B resentment, EE?
No, I've not read about them.

If someone resents apologizing they simply are not worth the effort.

I admit, it's a litmus test. A WW really is no place to make demands if she wants to convince her BH that she's a safe spouse.

Think of it as my personal boundary statement. I am not willing to remain in a relationship where there are no apologies for adultery.

Just as some are not willing to live with being hit, yelled at, or whatever, I'm not willing to remain in a relationship where my spouse is unwilling or unable to apologize for her hurtful actions.

If that's a character defect on my part, so be it. If I'm the bad spouse and the WW is a victim of my boundary with respect to an apology, then I'm a bad spouse and frankly I can live with being thought of as a unreasonable spouse by a WW who thinks the best, most loving course of action is to refuse or remain unwilling to apologize for her affair.

That's a label I'll gladly take, and live with the truth that it really doesn't apply. In that scenario, the one making the judgment is not credible.

I think this says it best:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Now I really don't see how the WW can convince her husband that she understands the hurt she's caused, as Dr H suggests here AND still never apologize.

If one knows they've done a hurtful thing, and they accept responsibility for that, then they would logically apologize.

Therefore, an apology is an important part of what Dr H is calling for the WW to do in this article.
How did we get from a WW's willingness to fulfill her BH's need for SF to apologies?

By the way, I did in fact apologize to my H for my A, not while I was in it, but afterwards, when the fog finally started to clear.

He also apologized to me for his A and for the pain that he caused me.
Probably the same way we got from my statement of a BH making respectful requests to have his SF needs met to his requests being selfish demands.

It's a message board, it happens.
ļæ½So, what would you suggest the WW do in this case? Agree to do something with her BH that she finds uncomfortable, disgusting, unsatisfying, whatever?ļæ½

No. SF activities should be agreed to in relationships.

ļæ½Basically, do it even though she doesn't want to, simply because she did it during her A with the OM (a time when she most decidedly was not thinking straight and was in all likelihood doing many things, including having an A, that she should not have been doing)?ļæ½

WW didnļæ½t tell the OM no. WW did it to please OM.

WW has no problem telling BH no. WW refuses to enable her BH meet the need to even the score against the OM.

ļæ½What do you think the result will be if the WW does something she does not want to do just to appease her BH?ļæ½

According to OOK sick. But OOK did it and never got sick is what the BH knows and saw. The WW sayļæ½s one thing, but actions were the opposite.

How is the BH to process that?

ļæ½Do you think it will help her fall in love with him? Do you think it will make their marriage stronger and happier?ļæ½

No. How is not giving what she gave the OM going to do those things for the BH?

In some ways I think an OC would be easier for the BH to accept then not giving the BH what the WW did for the OM. Even multiple OM.

It seems that the WW need not do anymore what she did with the OM is more important then the BH to get what she gave the OM. I think both there needs are valid.

However no one wants to follow do as I say not as I do.

What was good for the WW and OM is just as good for the BH.

Originally Posted by writer1
By the way, I did in fact apologize to my H for my A, not while I was in it, but afterwards, when the fog finally started to clear.

You realize, from reading what Dr H says how rare this is.

I can't find the quote right now, but I've seen it before, WW's seldom apologize for their affairs.
I got me a rare fish!

Also; I need a popcorn-eating smiley for this thread.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
By the way, I did in fact apologize to my H for my A, not while I was in it, but afterwards, when the fog finally started to clear.

You realize, from reading what Dr H says how rare this is.

I can't find the quote right now, but I've seen it before, WW's seldom apologize for their affairs.

They don't seem altogether that rare on this site.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
What was good for the WW and OM is just as good for the BH.

So, it's good for the H to engage in a threesome with his wife and someone else?
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
I got me a rare fish!

Also; I need a popcorn-eating smiley for this thread.

Glad to provide some entertainment.

There really are better things I should be doing. I'm just trying to avoid writing today. Seems to be working.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by writer1
By the way, I did in fact apologize to my H for my A, not while I was in it, but afterwards, when the fog finally started to clear.

You realize, from reading what Dr H says how rare this is.

I can't find the quote right now, but I've seen it before, WW's seldom apologize for their affairs.

They don't seem altogether that rare on this site.

I don't think this site is a representative sample of the world. It represents folks who are motivated to save their marriages, or at least think they are.

So you are going to see more FWW than is in the real world sample. You'll see more BH's who save their marriages than in the real world, etc.

So I tend to go with what Dr H says, which is most women who betray and/or leave their husbands are not leaving abusive or adulterous men. Rather they are leaving men who simply didn't have a clue about meeting their wives needs. And few actually provide a clue he can use.

I believe most act as T.C.'s wife did and harbor resentment without actually communicating it to their husbands.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009b_qa.html

They may THINK they are, but logically, if they were, would their husband really be dumbstruck as we see so many BH's here if they really do love their wives and yet are blindsided by their wives walking out, or having an affair?

We assume that the WW was an expert communicator and her BH ignored her requests. However, I doubt that's really true. I suspect if any requests were made at all, they were either indirect, or so buried in LB's that there was no hope of the BH understanding.

I really do believe this is the majority of cases. No man in his right mind would ignore a respectful request for change.

If we give one spouse the benefit of the doubt for being rational, then wouldn't the other be deserving of that benefit?

We even give WS's the benefit of being rational. After all, it's rational for someone to chose the means they think is most likely to get their needs met.

It may not be LEGITIMATE, but Dr H's teaching indicate it's a rational choice. It's the natural outcome when the taker is in charge without balance from the giver.

The longer EN's are ignored, the more likely the Taker will exert power over the giver.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by TheRoad
What was good for the WW and OM is just as good for the BH.

So, it's good for the H to engage in a threesome with his wife and someone else?

I don't think anyone is saying that. What folks have consistently said is if the WW said with her very actions that it was good enough for her to engage in some activity with the OM, it's going to be a difficult sell for her to convince her BH that the same activity is not good.

I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying she may not have the credibility to present an answer that is convincing to her BH.

It gets even harder when the request is not something many find morally offensive, such as a threesome, but just plain old enthusiasm for SF with their BH.

Either way, even if it's something we find offensive, one has to acknowledge the difficulty of the circumstance and how this appears inconsistent to the BH.

Maybe the BH isn't worth returning to. Frankly, I'd put one who wanted a threesome in that category.

However, since this thread is pretty general, and I didn't see the OP reference that particular case, it's not so specific. So the scenario in play could be any scenario, including respectful requests for something denied prior to the affair that was given to the OM that in no way is degrading, dangerous, deleterious nor demoralizing.

(gotta love me the alliteration)
I have said before and will say it again I am against 3somes.

How is the WW to give the BH what the OM got?

What if the WW never gave oral or any form of SF that you approve of in the marriage but did OM, what then?
Originally Posted by TheRoad
I have said before and will say it again I am against 3somes.

How is the WW to give the BH what the OM got?

What if the WW never gave oral or any form of SF that you approve of in the marriage but did OM, what then?

You tell us, TheRoad. You have been on MB for 3 years so you should know the answer to this. I am not inclined to educate someone who has been here for 3 years. That is not our job.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
[It gets even harder when the request is not something many find morally offensive, such as a threesome, but just plain old enthusiasm for SF with their BH.

And how would that enthusiasm be wrought? See, that is the key here, EE. I agree very much with you that the goal here should be a mutually satisfying sex life. But that is not the case in a bad marriage that is crippled by an affair. There is no romance, no passion. That has to be created.

The solution is to use this program to fall in love. And in order for that to happen, BOTH have to be on board.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. "
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html
I think you're right that what we see here on this site isn't typical. But it could be. If more troubled marriages had the benefit of the MB program, then I think the recovery rate could become much higher.

Of course, ever story is different, so it's difficult to make generalizations. In my specific case, I actually was walking away from a long-time adulterous man. I also did my best, in the 6 months prior to my A, to communicate to my H that I was feeling very lonely and disconnected from him. I didn't know anything about MB back then, so I can't say that I did it in the best possible way, but I did it the best way I knew how. Those were pretty much the exact words I used. And my H did in fact brush aside my concerns and make light of them. He didn't really seem particularly interested in listening to what I was saying or making any changes. I don't think this was malicious on his part. I think he was just fairly clueless about how very low I was feeling. From his side, he had ended his A (finally) and cut off all contact with the OW, like I had been asking him to. He had decided he was finally done with her and committed to the marriage, so from his side of things, everything was fine. But everything wasn't fine for me. To protect myself, I had distanced myself from him as much as possible, and I was starting to recognize that disconnect and the subsequent loneliness that followed.

If we had known about MB, perhaps we could have found a way to deal with the situation before it spiraled into the horrible abyss that it eventually landed in. Maybe I would have realized that having an A would not solve my loneliness but only increase it a hundred-fold. I can say that I have never felt as alone as I did during my A. I felt utterly cut-off from everything I thought I had once known about myself. I didn't feel close to anyone - not my H, or the OM, or even myself. It was the darkest, most horrible time of my life, because I completely lost sight of who I was. It was far worse that anything my H had ever done to me. There is nothing worse than losing one's sense of identity. During my H's A, at least I had the security of knowing who I was and that I was basically an okay person and that whatever he was doing was about HIM and not about me. I did not have even that small amount of comfort during my own A. I had no idea who I was during that time. I didn't even recognize my own reflection in the mirror (literally). Everything about myself seemed foreign to me during that time. It's so hard to explain to someone who has never experienced it before.

I guess my perspective is different from most, since I have seen first-hand both sides of this issue. All I can say is, neither side is fun. A's destroy everyone, even the people who willingly participate in them.
Quote
No man in his right mind would ignore a respectful request for change.

Mine did. Repeatedly. He honestly thought if he just ignored it it would go away. He knew exactly what I needed. That being said.....I wasn't meeting all his needs like gangbusters either....and he didn't cheat.

If a WS isn't going to end the A, be O&H, have remmorse, create EP's, and meet EN's, then that WS really just needs to free the BS of her skanky self. And if - after real and true work on the part of the WS (and I mean more than some obssessed over act here - I mean the big whole picture) - a BS cannot or will not begin to see the "F" of the FWS and create a new M, then the best thing for them to do is move on also.

The sad cases are the ones in which A) the spouses stay together in perpetual misery or B) they divorce, but one of the other is still stuck in perpetual misery because even after the M is over they cannot stop clinging to the anger/bitterness/hate/hurt/etc. Then, when this same person meets someone new and bring their leftover suspicion and issues onto the new person's head......

sad.

I have yet for someone to explain to me that I can understand as to why sex acts (excluding 3somes) are wonderful and exciting with an OP but dirty with the husband.

Respectability blah blah and endorphins blah blah. Seriously. Why is it okay one minute and not the next.

Someone told me trying to understand the wayward mind is like trying to understand the mind of a (I forget the exact words) murderer or rapist...a mindset which we haven't experienced and don't understand. I can kinda buy that.

I've heard "well, they're like a crack head needing their fix and are out of control" Ummmm...okay. I was a crack user and a meth user. I quit. Many don't because they don't want to bad enough. They know what they're doign is wrong and choose to keep at it or not. Everyone has willpower if they want to exercise it.
Quote
Why is it okay one minute and not the next.

For one thing....it takes longer than a minute to become wayward.

Maybe we're looking at this wrong. We seem to all be asking, "If it was right with the OM, why is it wrong with the BH?" I am taking "bizarre" acts here. But maybe that's backwards. maybe the truth it that those acts - just like everything else in an A - were WRONG with the OM. And once a WS comes out of that fog, they want to be RIGHT. And trying to make something WRONG into RIGHT just doesn't work.

If it comes to enthusiasm or something that doesn't cross legal, safety, or general moral lines....I feel a bit differently. In that case, I think the WS needs to think long and hard before saying "no."

I think part of it goes to BS motive as well. If a BH has always longed for his wife to wear a blong wig and go-go boots but she was too shy, then she did it with the OM.....I can understand why the BH would feel hurt. And at some point the WS should probably consider that....if it truly is about meeting a loving need. However, if the BH wants her to do it so he can rub in her face what she did during the A and get some sort of vindication in her discomfort.....sorry, that BH is wrong.
KT: I can't really answer this, because I didn't really do anything with the OM that I had never done with my H. I mean, my H and I have been married for 17 years, so really, there's not much that we haven't tried. Other than the truly bizarre (and this includes threesomes) which it never would have occurred to me to do, not with the OM or anyone else.
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
I have yet for someone to explain to me that I can understand as to why sex acts (excluding 3somes) are wonderful and exciting with an OP but dirty with the husband.

An addiction is like taking a long walk in the sewer and doing things that one would normally find revolting. For example, alcoholics do horrendous things in the pursuit of alcohol that they would never do unless they were under the spell of booze. It is the same with most affairs.

A WS will look back on their behavior and often feel utter disgust at the things they did while in an addiction.

Now don't get me wrong, I know that a great sex life does not have to be disgusting. So the solution is to create a GREAT sex that pleases BOTH without disgusting either.

Frankly, I can't imagine why a BS would ever WANT his WS to bring those sex acts into his bed, knowing it would trigger them BOTH about the affair. Why bring such putrid associations into a marriage? sick
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
A WS will look back on their behavior and often feel utter disgust at the things they did while in an addiction.


I fully get this. I can't say I didn't do something things that I'm not so proud of when using. I also know many of the women I was around did really disgusting things to get their speed fix.

Quote
Frankly, I can't imagine why a BS would ever WANT his WS to bring those sex acts into his bed, knowing it would trigger them BOTH about the affair. Why bring such putrid associations into a marriage? sick

And I get this thinking. But in response to this and the few other posts before yours, let's say WW has never given BH oral sex before (I consider this not to be a crazy act at all and a pretty standard part of a sex life). But she's more than willing to go down on OM enthusiastically. I find it hard to understand that now it's dirty and refuses to do for BH anymore than the actual act of sex itself would now be dirty because she engaged in sex with the OM.

And I know everyone has a different standard of sex. But I'm not talking about 3somes, or the husband wanting to dress up in fish nets and be spanked or something a bit more on the different side. I like Luri's idea of the wig and the go go boots. Meet up in a bar or seedy motel and pretend you're different people. Wait. What?
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
I like Luri's idea of the wig and the go go boots. Meet up in a bar or seedy motel and pretend you're different people. Wait. What?

This whole thing is starting to remind me of a Barry Manilow song now.
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
[And I know everyone has a different standard of sex. But I'm not talking about 3somes, or the husband wanting to dress up in fish nets and be spanked or something a bit more on the different side. I like Luri's idea of the wig and the go go boots. Meet up in a bar or seedy motel and pretend you're different people. Wait. What?

She did WHAT?? Lou!! You naughty!! rotflmao
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
"I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."
This is the best sentence in this entire thread. Hate to see it go to waste.

Even so-called FWWs occasionally use this thought years later. I see it in this thread even, though in different words.

Look, some of us were simply never going to get over the sex part, especially not us virgins on our wedding night - as Mr W puts it.

Did not in the end matter what she is willing to do or not willing to do now. It was simply too much for me. Took me four years to realize it is all. My time on MB would have been better spent getting the proper help deciding this early on instead of running after recovery rainbows.


Oh, and this is completely bogus:

ļæ½NO MATTER WHAT SHE SAYS...

SHE DID NOT LOVE THE OM.

SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH A FANTASY THAT WAS NOT REAL AND COULD NOT EVER BE HERS BECAUSE IT DID NOT EXIST.ļæ½

It offends me to hear this trap. She did love him a great deal. The VLTA, all ten years of it, were as real to her as my marriage was to me during that period. Actually, that was said to me by an MB trained coach.

Adultery and all its feelings and all its actions is very real. All this talk about fantasy is whistling past the graveyard. Fantasy applies to marriage, to any romantic love whatsoever exactly as much as it does to adultery.

Itļæ½s all just brain chemicals, right? For what it is worth, the MB recovery approach tries to generate most of those brain chemicals inside the marriage is all. Which is no longer possible for me. But thatļæ½s just me.
Quote
so-called FWWs

I think this is a key too. When someone is convinced that their spouse (along with every other FWS on earth) is never going to be anything but a perpetual WS, then let's face it, NO act is going to fix anything.

And no, I have never met DH at a bar or seedy hotel or pretended I was someone else. Everything else is between me and DH. Don't want to make anyone jealous.

Good Lord, did I just type that? I think it's time for my lithium.
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
I got me a rare fish!

Also; I need a popcorn-eating smiley for this thread.

[Linked Image from smileyshut.com]

Want some of mine?
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So I tend to go with what Dr H says, which is most women who betray and/or leave their husbands are not leaving abusive or adulterous men. Rather they are leaving men who simply didn't have a clue about meeting their wives needs. And few actually provide a clue he can use.

I believe most act as T.C.'s wife did and harbor resentment without actually communicating it to their husbands.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009b_qa.html

They may THINK they are, but logically, if they were, would their husband really be dumbstruck as we see so many BH's here if they really do love their wives and yet are blindsided by their wives walking out, or having an affair?

We assume that the WW was an expert communicator and her BH ignored her requests. However, I doubt that's really true. I suspect if any requests were made at all, they were either indirect, or so buried in LB's that there was no hope of the BH understanding.

I really do believe this is the majority of cases. No man in his right mind would ignore a respectful request for change.

You lost me here EE. In general, I have found that most men ignore or dismiss their wives who have repeatedly made efforts to solve a problem in the marriage. Of course there comes a point where the LBs begin...when you are talking to a wall it happens...even the good doctor has said as much. One non-MB book that I read, Good Husband, Great Marriage was dead on from what I have seen IRL. If the H is also a WH then you have a W that is even more inclined to think "why bother" and off to A-land she goes.
The girls soccer team threw a bunch of their bags into the trunk of my car one day. I had forgotten that my daughter had left her blond wig from Halloween back there along with a pair of high heels and fish nets.

The girls pulled them out, giggled, and started makign jokes about finding out about my second job. A year ago this happened and I still haven't lived it down.
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
The girls soccer team threw a bunch of their bags into the trunk of my car one day. I had forgotten that my daughter had left her blond wig from Halloween back there along with a pair of high heels and fish nets.

The girls pulled them out, giggled, and started makign jokes about finding out about my second job. A year ago this happened and I still haven't lived it down.

Yeah, sure. So, that's your story and you're sticking to it? kiss
This is for kiltedthrower. My crazy uncle from OKC is sending this around suggesting donations be sent to him for the "earthquake" in Oklahoma. crazy

[Linked Image from sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net]

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is for kiltedthrower. My crazy uncle from OKC is sending this around suggesting donations be sent to him for the "earthquake" in Oklahoma. crazy

[Linked Image from sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net]
hahahaha! Half of us didn't even know it happened.
Originally Posted by Aphelion
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
"I had an affair, can't we just forget about it and start to work on getting you fixed so I don't have an affair again."
This is the best sentence in this entire thread. Hate to see it go to waste.

Even so-called FWWs occasionally use this thought years later. I see it in this thread even, though in different words.

Look, some of us were simply never going to get over the sex part, especially not us virgins on our wedding night - as Mr W puts it.

Did not in the end matter what she is willing to do or not willing to do now. It was simply too much for me. Took me four years to realize it is all. My time on MB would have been better spent getting the proper help deciding this early on instead of running after recovery rainbows.


Oh, and this is completely bogus:

ļæ½NO MATTER WHAT SHE SAYS...

SHE DID NOT LOVE THE OM.

SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH A FANTASY THAT WAS NOT REAL AND COULD NOT EVER BE HERS BECAUSE IT DID NOT EXIST.ļæ½

It offends me to hear this trap. She did love him a great deal. The VLTA, all ten years of it, were as real to her as my marriage was to me during that period. Actually, that was said to me by an MB trained coach.

Adultery and all its feelings and all its actions is very real. All this talk about fantasy is whistling past the graveyard. Fantasy applies to marriage, to any romantic love whatsoever exactly as much as it does to adultery.

Itļæ½s all just brain chemicals, right? For what it is worth, the MB recovery approach tries to generate most of those brain chemicals inside the marriage is all. Which is no longer possible for me. But thatļæ½s just me.

Aphelion,

I can't speak for YOUR WW...

but Mrs.Flint has a different opinion...

and she is a FWW.

She was NEVER in love with the OM...

She used him like toilet paper...

what she wanted...

when she wanted.

It was ALL about her...

HE had NOTHING to do with it.

As long as he barked when she said to he fulfilled his purpose.

There was nothing to love...

just to be USED.

You say it's bogus.

I don't.

I have a W that loves me the way I have always dreamed of.

That wouldn't be the case if she had lost something.

She didn't.

Sorry you didn't pick a winner...

But go ahead...

Ask away, Aphelion.

Ask the FWW's here if they "loved the OM".

I am sorry for you...

That you never saw the love in someone's eyes that told you that you DID make the right choice to recover what always should have been...

A second chance.

God bless.

Jim

Originally Posted by TheRoad
What if the WW never gave oral or any form of SF that you approve of in the marriage but did OM, what then?

Then you get divorced, or you decide you can live with it.
Markos gave me an idea. Lets say the wifey really does not have chemistry with her husband of 20 years. She submits to sex at least once a month. For his sake. And so she could become pregnant twice and obtain the children she wanted.

Then she meets the other man and all of a sudden she tries oral, has wild orgasms, tries bondage and even a few times, anal. She becomes "an animal" in bed... even enjoying sex with him and his friends.

Then she gives up the other man. Or he dumps her. Sending her back to her husband.

Back to her husband of 20 years.....Back to her old "school marm" restricted sex life that she hates. She feels sex is B-O-R-I-N-G. She does not orgasm and never has with him.

So, why can't her husband change? Become wild like the OM. Offer her the best orgasms of her life? I know he is hurt to the bone by her affair. But if he could continue to awaken her awakened sexuality, maybe some good could come of things.

Why could she not go wild with her husband. Fake it till you make it type of thing. She could give him wild oral sex! She could tie him up! He could tie her up! She could initiate and get on top! She could ask for oral sex from him! She could blindfold him! Use ice! He could have sex standing up! New and different things they never tried!

What would stop thier sex life from becoming a sex life that both married people would like very much??? I know he would have to get over the hurt. And she would have to be willing to experiment in bed with the husband of 20 years trying new things.

Why can't thier sex life be as exciting or nearly so...as her affair sex with the OM? It would not have to involve anal or threesomes. But some new things could be incorporated.

If they could get thier sex life to something both were happy with it might prevent another affair...or might make for a happy healing marriage. Who knows....
The evidence that the men are dumbstruck or blindsided or however you want to put it, often saying they didn't even know their spouse was unhappy according to Dr Harley is evidence that if there was ANY, and that's a big if, effort at communication, it was either indirect, or distorted by the other messages they were sending as to make it impossible for the guy to get the message.

Example, a frustrated wife says, "You never take me out." The guy knows he's taken her out before, so this becomes a defense against the attack she's just leveled. She "thinks" she just told him she wasn't happy. But she never used the words, "I'm not happy" nor did she tell him that she wanted to go out more.

Instead, she attacked and the only thing he heard was he was under attack, because she indeed leveled an attack.

So both are correct in their perception. The wife thinks she's told him time and time again, yet he's never heard what she thinks she's telling him because she attacked, not made a respectful request or complaint.

We cannot assume that the WW is being truthful, but the BH is lying when each say they did or didn't send or get the memo. It's likely each of them are telling the truth.

Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So I tend to go with what Dr H says, which is most women who betray and/or leave their husbands are not leaving abusive or adulterous men. Rather they are leaving men who simply didn't have a clue about meeting their wives needs. And few actually provide a clue he can use.

I believe most act as T.C.'s wife did and harbor resentment without actually communicating it to their husbands.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009b_qa.html

They may THINK they are, but logically, if they were, would their husband really be dumbstruck as we see so many BH's here if they really do love their wives and yet are blindsided by their wives walking out, or having an affair?

We assume that the WW was an expert communicator and her BH ignored her requests. However, I doubt that's really true. I suspect if any requests were made at all, they were either indirect, or so buried in LB's that there was no hope of the BH understanding.

I really do believe this is the majority of cases. No man in his right mind would ignore a respectful request for change.

You lost me here EE. In general, I have found that most men ignore or dismiss their wives who have repeatedly made efforts to solve a problem in the marriage. Of course there comes a point where the LBs begin...when you are talking to a wall it happens...even the good doctor has said as much. One non-MB book that I read, Good Husband, Great Marriage was dead on from what I have seen IRL. If the H is also a WH then you have a W that is even more inclined to think "why bother" and off to A-land she goes.
EE, I think the bottom line is that it is rarely either or. A FWW/WW rarely does as good a job communicating her emptiness as she THINKS she did. I actually said things like, "I feel completely invisible. I NEED to be phyically intimate with you more than 4 times a year. I want you to tell me if there are things about me you love. I do not feel that you love me." But obviously something about what I said was not enough because he didn't get it. However, for him to say, "Well she never told me...." would not be accurate either. It falls somewhere in the middle.

And there is a huge key. We have all encountered WW who just cannot separate their unhappiness in the M from their affair. They just cannot let go of the, "well I was so unhappy...." Because IF they can see the affair a separate....then they have no choice but to see that THEY were 100% responsible for the A. I think the same goes for SOME BH. IF they admit that the M wasn't fine, and IF they admit that maybe - just maybe - all WW's aren't Satan.....then they have no choice but to look at their responsibility in the M. And it's easier to just stay bitter and to insist that no WW anywhere can ever change. That way none of what happened in their M is ever their fault. And that includes sex.

I don't know why I never went through a "I just can't" thing with my DH regarding SF.....maybe because I have a high drive. I do know that one thing that made it easier to let my hair down with OM was him being so.....assertive about wanting me. But after D-Day, during that hysterical bonding, DH couldn't get enough of me, so it was just natural to want him as much and be even more uninhibited - after all, he was my DH and SF with him was 100% right.

I do remember one night that I froze up. And it was because in the heat of the moment his demeanor (DH) changed, he tried something, and said some words that made it obvious that there was anger and punishment in his mind and he wanted to "treat me like the ho I was." I'm not going to share details. It shocked me so much I went into "fear" mode, scrambled away from him, and started crying. I guess he could have made an issue of it (it wasn't something that I had done with OM), but instead he just sort of crumbled and held me and said sorry and that he loved me. Those were tough moments, but his response to them was part of why we were able to recover. He acted out of his love for me, not out of what my wayward behavior deserved. I think it's called grace.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
EE, I think the bottom line is that it is rarely either or. A FWW/WW rarely does as good a job communicating her emptiness as she THINKS she did. I actually said things like, "I feel completely invisible. I NEED to be phyically intimate with you more than 4 times a year. I want you to tell me if there are things about me you love. I do not feel that you love me." But obviously something about what I said was not enough because he didn't get it. However, for him to say, "Well she never told me...." would not be accurate either. It falls somewhere in the middle.

And there is a huge key. We have all encountered WW who just cannot separate their unhappiness in the M from their affair. They just cannot let go of the, "well I was so unhappy...." Because IF they can see the affair a separate....then they have no choice but to see that THEY were 100% responsible for the A. I think the same goes for SOME BH. IF they admit that the M wasn't fine, and IF they admit that maybe - just maybe - all WW's aren't Satan.....then they have no choice but to look at their responsibility in the M. And it's easier to just stay bitter and to insist that no WW anywhere can ever change. That way none of what happened in their M is ever their fault. And that includes sex.

As a BH, I know I am responsible for the state of the M making my wife vulnerable.

I can also confirm, that any reaching done prior was either so buried in LBs it was ineffective, or just buried in "feminine mystique."

OK, not really feminine mystique. It was buried in an expectation that I had unwittingly built.

I find the "assertive about wanting me" comment... funny?

I was always pretty assertive about that w/ my FWW. For years I was the assertive one 99.9972674% of the time. I was the affectionate one.

She worked, she did housework, we had kids, she watched TV - I was at the bottom of the pile, and figured that was fine.

After about 7 years of that, I was just done. I had intermittently sat down with her and talked to her about how she just kept leaving me feel unloved, and it never. sank. in. It never. got. through.

So I shut down, I withdrew, I engaged in emotional divorce. My fault. Could have fought harder. She tried, but the attempts were either buried in LBs, or buried in her own perceptions. She had become so used to me chasing her, that she believed creating the opportunity to chase was trying. I stopped chasing because the rejection took too much of a toll.


I handed her a fight she wasn't ready for, and she lost, because she found someone who was "assertive about wanting" her. And that's about it. Nothing else to offer. And here we are.

Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by TheRoad
What if the WW never gave oral or any form of SF that you approve of in the marriage but did OM, what then?

Then you get divorced, or you decide you can live with it.

You miss the point.

If not threesomes, then oral, then a wig, then boots, then cherry flavored lip stick. A what point is some act small enough that the WW can make the sacrifice to give the BH what she gave the OM?

Is there an act small enough?

Or going in the opposite direction WW only did missionary with the BH. WW did cowgirl with the OM.

Is it right for the WW to refuse to do cowgirl for the BH now?
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
The evidence that the men are dumbstruck or blindsided or however you want to put it, often saying they didn't even know their spouse was unhappy according to Dr Harley is evidence that if there was ANY, and that's a big if, effort at communication, it was either indirect, or distorted by the other messages they were sending as to make it impossible for the guy to get the messages.

I do not doubt that poor communication is an issue at times. But there are also plenty of women that voiced their concerns clearly and it still fell on deaf ears. We may also be biased by our own observations and experiences.

I have even told some women if I think they are being unclear to their husband when they are frustrated. I know I have been guilty of this myself and try to correct it. The vast majority of the time they admit the message may have been lost and try again (and are clear) and still nada...instead now she is a 'nag' because she voiced her concern/complaint again. Her H doesn't want to hear it so eventually she shuts up and doesn't say anything to him anymore. Her silence is taken as "well she must be good" and she is not.

I don't think it is impossible for men to understand women, but many simply don't listen. How many times have we seen the doormat/conflict avoiding BH show up here and the advice goes in one ear and out the other? Maybe FOO plays a part in how we communicate with others. Growing up in my house, you were never allowed to just sulk and say "nothing is wrong...humph" but we also paid attention to non-verbal cues and "know" each other's personalities well.

There have been many threads about the differences between men and women...some may see them as gender bashing but I see them as educational. Men will admit that professional success is important to them and spend too many hrs working instead of with their spouse or family so it is not rocket science to see that if you are working 60 hrs a week and on the weekend you want some time to do nothing but sleep in & relax by watching football or whatever that you aren't spending time with your wife.

I think most women get that after working long hours, her H would want to unwind but it seems to become a habit and she gets the leftovers. The H climbs into bed and after ignoring her all day, he wants sex. Most women are not thinking "yippie" at this point. Weird I know. Of course there are exceptions and the roles of spouse today are not like they were in the 50's but men still want to be the breadwinners most of the time and women are still seen as the glue of the family that handles most of the domestic stuff including the children. Often both genders get grief if they don't live up to this so they may even go overboard...even get angry which only makes the marriage worse.

**b_r waiting for EE to tell me how wrong I am** stickout laugh




The bitterness and resentment that a BH can feel after finding out about an A can be quite addictive. Ever had a deep bruise or a cut you just couldn't stop poking at, even though it hurt like he77?

That's what's hard to let go sometimes -- you get so used to the pain that it almost becomes a friend. There are those who can never move past that stage and almost revel in the suffering. (One long-time poster here comes to mind.)

Dr. Harley states that this is where the BH (or BW) becomes the impediment to R. And that's where I am right now. I'm starting to liken the resentment stage to a boil -- you can't lance it until it's reached the proper stage. Do it too soon, and you can't get rid of all the bile. Wait too long, and it becomes gangrenous and amputation becomes necessary.

I think we personally went through the lancing stage in the past two weeks -- and it's confusing. You get used to the agony after a while. It's like looking at a scar and realizing the memory of the pain is starting to fade.

At some point you have to let it go -- or let them go. It's just that simple.
All I know is that, in my case, I told my H directly. "I'm not feeling good about our marriage. Something is missing. I don't feel connected to you anymore. It seems like we don't have very much in common anymore. We don't seem to enjoy doing the same things. We don't talk the way we used to. We need to start working together on some of these issues, because it feels like we are drifting apart." We had very long conversations about the issue and I certainly tried to be as clear and direct as possible. I've never been a beat around the bush kind of person.

After my A, my H very much admitted that I attempted to talk to him about our problems on a number of occasions. He certainly knew I had been feeling disconnected. He simply didn't know what to do about it. But he was very aware of the problem.

After my A, I saw some amazing changes in my H, so he was certainly capable of addressing the issues. Unfortunately, not all of those initial changes stuck, and we have done a lot of backsliding in our relationship. Certainly there are still things we need to work on, from both of our sides. I do know one thing, no matter how miserable the state of your marriage is, an A will only make things worse, never better. I will never try to "solve" my problems in such a horrendous, selfish way again.

But to make a blanket statement that men are "blind sided" by the A simply because their wives did not effectively communicate their unhappiness in the marriage simply doesn't work. I'm sure that's the case in some marriages, but certainly not all.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by TheRoad
What if the WW never gave oral or any form of SF that you approve of in the marriage but did OM, what then?

Then you get divorced, or you decide you can live with it.

You miss the point.

If not threesomes, then oral, then a wig, then boots, then cherry flavored lip stick. A what point is some act small enough that the WW can make the sacrifice to give the BH what she gave the OM?

Is there an act small enough?

That's up to her, isn't it?

Quote
Is it right for the WW to refuse to do cowgirl for the BH now?

It's amazing how that question is worded almost exactly the same format as the original title of my own personal thread here, in which I was told repeatedly that the question I was asking was wrong.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
[If not threesomes, then oral, then a wig, then boots, then cherry flavored lip stick. A what point is some act small enough that the WW can make the sacrifice to give the BH what she gave the OM?

Is it right for the WW to refuse to do cowgirl for the BH now?

And why don't you tell us what Dr Harley says about "sacrifice," TheRoad? Fill us in!
I don't know why I get my questions answered with questions.

So a WS can refuse their BS any SF they did for the OP no matter how plain Jane it was.

Then a BS can refuse their WS any SF that they did with the OP no matter how plain Jane it was.

So in a WW's case her BH get's his WW to have an affair, does SF with the OM that she refuses to do with him, get's to accept that his WW put him in secpond place to the OM in the SF dept.

Then the BH is told to sacrifice, take one for the team.

Why doesn't his WW restart the affair until there is an OC for her BH to accept inaddition?

Yes this is only fair for the BH. I mean his WW made sacrifices. She stopped doing the OM, will let her BH have certain parts of her SF arsenal, didn't give the BH an OC to help raise and pay for.

Yes sir, this BH should worship the ground his WW walks on for all the sacrifices she has made. And he's so ungrateful just because he can't get what the WW gave the OM. This BH is so short sighted.
Again, TheRoad, what are the answers to those questions according to Marriage Builders? You have been here long enough to know the answers to those questions yourself.

I am not inclined to answer questions about very basic concepts from someone who has been here for 3 years. You should know the answer.
When we start talking about wild extremes of behavior and thought that haven't even been mentioned (like where does it say that a BH is supposed to worship the ground a WW walks on just because she didn't have an OC) then it is apparent that answers aren't really being sought. Just a chance to vent more bitterness.
I wouldn't say it is bitterness...but definitely stuck (which may be for a number of reasons) and likely a sign that a WS has not made Just Compensation.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
When we start talking about wild extremes of behavior and thought that haven't even been mentioned (like where does it say that a BH is supposed to worship the ground a WW walks on just because she didn't have an OC) then it is apparent that answers aren't really being sought. Just a chance to vent more bitterness.

Yep, I agree absolutely. That is why I am not going to waste my time trying to answer his loaded "questions."

If he truly wants answers, he can take the time to educate himself about MB like the rest of us have done. There is no excuse for a poster to be here for 3 years asking such basic questions. I am not inclined to bother answering someone who doesn't even own a single MB book but still feels qualified to advise others.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Yes this is only fair for the BH.

You talk like there is an objective standard of "fair," rather than two people who have to decide for themselves what they are willing to accept or not and whether to cooperate with each other or not.
One thing I have learned in education is that what is fair for one student doesn't mean it's fair for another student. Fair is subjective rather than objective.

I'm not sure what the answer is. But if one is holding bitter resentment for years. And the H or W wants a certain type of sex or sexual positions and the H or W doesn't want to, welll...there might just not be a happy middle ground. The BS might have to explore whether he really wants to resume a happy marriage with his WS or pack it up and move on and find someone that he feels he is more sexually compatible with and doesn't have holding resentment towards.
Originally Posted by writer1
All I know is that, in my case, I told my H directly. "I'm not feeling good about our marriage. Something is missing. I don't feel connected to you anymore. It seems like we don't have very much in common anymore. We don't seem to enjoy doing the same things. We don't talk the way we used to. We need to start working together on some of these issues, because it feels like we are drifting apart." We had very long conversations about the issue and I certainly tried to be as clear and direct as possible. I've never been a beat around the bush kind of person.

After my A, my H very much admitted that I attempted to talk to him about our problems on a number of occasions. He certainly knew I had been feeling disconnected. He simply didn't know what to do about it. But he was very aware of the problem.

After my A, I saw some amazing changes in my H, so he was certainly capable of addressing the issues. Unfortunately, not all of those initial changes stuck, and we have done a lot of backsliding in our relationship. Certainly there are still things we need to work on, from both of our sides. I do know one thing, no matter how miserable the state of your marriage is, an A will only make things worse, never better. I will never try to "solve" my problems in such a horrendous, selfish way again.

But to make a blanket statement that men are "blind sided" by the A simply because their wives did not effectively communicate their unhappiness in the marriage simply doesn't work. I'm sure that's the case in some marriages, but certainly not all.

It took considerably less than that speech to turn me around, and by that point, the A had already taken place.

In that respect, I pitty FWW. She DID NOT communicate anything to me clearly.

I attempted to communicate a problem SEVERAL times, and things would change for a while, and then fall back to the same-old-same-old. That built resentment in me, that led to me withdrawing.

A lot of the entire situation seems to be gigantic role reversals between her and I.
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
H or W wants a certain type of sex or sexual positions and the H or W doesn't want to, welll...there might just not be a happy middle ground. The BS might have to explore whether he really wants to resume a happy marriage with his WS or pack it up and move on and find someone that he feels he is more sexually compatible with and doesn't hold resentment towards.
Someone take me to school on POJA here.

BH wants some kinky sex, not illegal or harmful - just al la some of what OM got with gusto. Adulterous wife does not want to do any such thing any more. Now she is earning her big fat F she wants to be as pure as the driven snow or whatever gets her off now she is done with OM.

There is no middle ground in this situation. The kinky sec either happens or it doesnļæ½t. POJA explicitly says donļæ½t do anything both souses do not enthusiastically agree to. Soooooļæ½.the adulterers gets what she wants yet again. Her BH does not get what he wants, yet again.

What?

For the record I wanted absolutely none of what wife gave to OM. I didnļæ½t want to touch her at all any more, in fact.
Originally Posted by Aphelion
There is no middle ground in this situation. The kinky sec either happens or it doesnļæ½t. POJA explicitly says donļæ½t do anything both souses do not enthusiastically agree to. Soooooļæ½.the adulterers gets what she wants yet again. Her BH does not get what he wants, yet again.

MarriageBuilders isn't about fair.

It's about building love.

And your scenario that there's "no middle ground" is a false dichotomy. There are a broad spectrum of sexual behaviors that can push the envelope for a couple, that they can find that they enjoy.

So how do you build love with a betrayed spouse that wants to experiment sexually, and a wayward spouse who doesn't want to?

In your scenario above, there's win/lose going on. To me, a couple that thinks a situation is win/lose has one of two things going on:
1. They value something in their life more than the feelings of their spouse (affair, church, bowling, whatever).
2. They have not sufficiently brainstormed and chosen ideas they are enthusiastic about.

That's it. That's your spectrum of behavior there. Either one of them has something they value more than their spouse's feelings, or they haven't broached enough brainstorming solutions.

If they sit down and brainstorm -- keeping in mind that their spouse's feelings should be paramount -- I'm certain they could come up with behaviors that would push the sexual boundaries of their marriage, yet be within the comfort zone of the wayward spouse.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So I tend to go with what Dr H says, which is most women who betray and/or leave their husbands are not leaving abusive or adulterous men. Rather they are leaving men who simply didn't have a clue about meeting their wives needs. And few actually provide a clue he can use.

I believe most act as T.C.'s wife did and harbor resentment without actually communicating it to their husbands.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009b_qa.html

They may THINK they are, but logically, if they were, would their husband really be dumbstruck as we see so many BH's here if they really do love their wives and yet are blindsided by their wives walking out, or having an affair?

We assume that the WW was an expert communicator and her BH ignored her requests. However, I doubt that's really true. I suspect if any requests were made at all, they were either indirect, or so buried in LB's that there was no hope of the BH understanding.

I really do believe this is the majority of cases. No man in his right mind would ignore a respectful request for change.

You lost me here EE. In general, I have found that most men ignore or dismiss their wives who have repeatedly made efforts to solve a problem in the marriage. Of course there comes a point where the LBs begin...when you are talking to a wall it happens...even the good doctor has said as much. One non-MB book that I read, Good Husband, Great Marriage was dead on from what I have seen IRL. If the H is also a WH then you have a W that is even more inclined to think "why bother" and off to A-land she goes.

So are you saying MB doesn't work?

Or are you saying even though they made efforts, they were not using the program that works, and possibly their work was doing even more damage.

Efforts are great, but we all know it's not the amount of work one does that is measured, but the quality of that work.

Go read the story about Why Women Leave Men. These are not men who are abusive, lazy, or anything else. They too are engaged in efforts. The question for BOTH the WW and the BH is are they engaged in the efforts that will maintain, or restore and maintain romantic love.

Just as the wife is telling her husband he's not engaged in the right efforts, if the message is not getting the desired results, is the message being delivered in an effective manner, or does the message destroy any possible hope for change?
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
EE, I think the bottom line is that it is rarely either or. A FWW/WW rarely does as good a job communicating her emptiness as she THINKS she did. I actually said things like, "I feel completely invisible. I NEED to be phyically intimate with you more than 4 times a year. I want you to tell me if there are things about me you love. I do not feel that you love me." But obviously something about what I said was not enough because he didn't get it. However, for him to say, "Well she never told me...." would not be accurate either. It falls somewhere in the middle.

And there is a huge key. We have all encountered WW who just cannot separate their unhappiness in the M from their affair. They just cannot let go of the, "well I was so unhappy...." Because IF they can see the affair a separate....then they have no choice but to see that THEY were 100% responsible for the A. I think the same goes for SOME BH. IF they admit that the M wasn't fine, and IF they admit that maybe - just maybe - all WW's aren't Satan.....then they have no choice but to look at their responsibility in the M. And it's easier to just stay bitter and to insist that no WW anywhere can ever change. That way none of what happened in their M is ever their fault. And that includes sex.

As a BH, I know I am responsible for the state of the M making my wife vulnerable.

I can also confirm, that any reaching done prior was either so buried in LBs it was ineffective, or just buried in "feminine mystique."

OK, not really feminine mystique. It was buried in an expectation that I had unwittingly built.

I find the "assertive about wanting me" comment... funny?

I was always pretty assertive about that w/ my FWW. For years I was the assertive one 99.9972674% of the time. I was the affectionate one.

She worked, she did housework, we had kids, she watched TV - I was at the bottom of the pile, and figured that was fine.

After about 7 years of that, I was just done. I had intermittently sat down with her and talked to her about how she just kept leaving me feel unloved, and it never. sank. in. It never. got. through.

So I shut down, I withdrew, I engaged in emotional divorce. My fault. Could have fought harder. She tried, but the attempts were either buried in LBs, or buried in her own perceptions. She had become so used to me chasing her, that she believed creating the opportunity to chase was trying. I stopped chasing because the rejection took too much of a toll.


I handed her a fight she wasn't ready for, and she lost, because she found someone who was "assertive about wanting" her. And that's about it. Nothing else to offer. And here we are.

Sounds like the more common story to me. Requests buried in Feminine Mystique and/or Love Busters.

How many actually POJA?

Not many at all.

The, uh, "feminine mystique" part was kind of sarcasm.

I was apparently supposed to be a mind reader, and know clues and signals for things which I was briefed on in the prior to the mission.

More sarcasm. She spoke a different language; she was so used to me doing all the chasing, all the pursuing, that when I didn't, she took THAT as rejection.


I won the "I'll show her how she makes me feel" lottery. The prize? SUCKS.
I do know that one thing said on MB a lot is that each person is supposed to clean up their own side of the street. So it's pretty certain that when one spouse (or both) is reveling (or wallowing) in the other side of the street the M is not going to improve. And if the M is over......then it needs to be over. If DH had decided to leave me, I would hope A) he would let go of me and move on with a happy life and B) that every other woman on the planet wouldn't be made to suffer for my choices
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So are you saying MB doesn't work?

No...I never said that. I have the MB books. I also have that other book which I found to be pretty truthful and inline with much (not all) of what Dr. Harley describes....why women lose hope.

Quote
Or are you saying even though they made efforts, they were not using the program that works, and possibly their work was doing even more damage.

I'm saying that efforts were made to be more clear but even when the message is clear, the H didn't want to hear it.

Quote
Efforts are great, but we all know it's not the amount of work one does that is measured, but the quality of that work.

Agreed

Quote
Go read the story about Why Women Leave Men. These are not men who are abusive, lazy, or anything else. They too are engaged in efforts. The question for BOTH the WW and the BH is are they engaged in the efforts that will maintain, or restore and maintain romantic love.

I have read Why Women Leave Men many times, EE. Nowhere does it say that these men are not abusive, lazy, etc. From that article:

"When all forms of spousal neglect are grouped together, we find that it is far ahead of all the other reasons combined that women leave men. Surprisingly few women divorce because of physical abuse, infidelity, alcoholism, criminal behavior, fraud, or other serious grounds. In fact, I find myself bewildered by women in serious physical danger refusing to leave men that threaten their safety."

That few women leave because of the reasons listed above does not mean the element is not present...only that the wife didn't leave the marriage over it...she sucks it up. Most women I know put up with a lot...primarily because of the children. I'm sure there are men that do the same but the article is about why women leave.

Quote
Just as the wife is telling her husband he's not engaged in the right efforts, if the message is not getting the desired results, is the message being delivered in an effective manner, or does the message destroy any possible hope for change?

If the desired result is not being achieved it could be that the message isn't being delivered in an effective manner. I have never disagreed with that. But there are men (and women of course) who simply don't "listen" or want to hear what the other spouse is saying because they have already made up their mind that they are right and the other spouse is wrong, etc. I think this dynamic is seen in most marriages that are having problems.

When I spoke with Steve, he agreed that men (IN GENERAL) don't listen to their wives. Isn't that what is basically summed up in the article?
Posted By: Jim_Flint Q - 10/20/10 03:02 PM

I think that the answer for the BH who is unfulfilled by his FWW's attitude toward sexual relations with him is best answered by the answer that WE actually do the MB plans...

or we don't.

One of the plans is best answered by Dr.Harley himself in his discussion of "The Question of the Ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in a marriage?"

In it he asks the couple WHY should we have sex?

AND

HOW should we have sex?

He teaches the H that having two to three hours of the emotional needs of AFFECTION and INTIMATE CONVERSATION with his W prior to sexual relations will provide the W with a favorable enviornment for meeting his needs for sex which Dr.Harley reminds women has more to do with his emotional need of SEXUAL FULFILLMENT which his PRIMARY need compared to MOST women's more primary needs of AFFECTION and INTIMATE CONVERSATION.

ANYONE whether it is a former wandering spouse or betrayed spouse who refuses the POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION components of AFFECTION, INTIMATE CONVERSATION, SEXUAL FULFILLMENT and RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP is NOT doing the MB PLANS and is in no position to expect their spouse to continue in the relationship.

If it's not want you want in the marriage whether it be sexual fulfillment or any other emotional need you POJA and meet the POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION.

ALL OF IT INCLUDING HOW AND WHY YOU MEET THOSE EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

What is not negotiable is the same thing I told Mrs.Flint in the beginning...

EITHER WE DO THE MB PLANS...

ALL of them.

Or we're done.

She tested me to see if I was bluffing...

I wasn't and she knew it.

I think if I had wavered or not been ready to follow through on ending the M if she backed out we would not have made it and have the M we both dreamed about.

Follow the Plans...

ALL OF THEM.

For BOTH of you.

God bless.

Jim

Posted By: black_raven Re: Q - 10/20/10 03:18 PM
clap

Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Q - 10/20/10 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
I think that the answer for the BH who is unfulfilled by his FWW's attitude toward sexual relations with him is best answered by the answer that WE actually do the MB plans...

or we don't.

One of the plans is best answered by Dr.Harley himself in his discussion of "The Question of the Ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in a marriage?"

In it he asks the couple WHY should we have sex?

AND

HOW should we have sex?

He teaches the H that having two to three hours of the emotional needs of AFFECTION and INTIMATE CONVERSATION with his W prior to sexual relations will provide the W with a favorable enviornment for meeting his needs for sex which Dr.Harley reminds women has more to do with his emotional need of SEXUAL FULFILLMENT which his PRIMARY need compared to MOST women's more primary needs of AFFECTION and INTIMATE CONVERSATION.

ANYONE whether it is a former wandering spouse or betrayed spouse who refuses the POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION components of AFFECTION, INTIMATE CONVERSATION, SEXUAL FULFILLMENT and RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP is NOT doing the MB PLANS and is in no position to expect their spouse to continue in the relationship.

If it's not want you want in the marriage whether it be sexual fulfillment or any other emotional need you POJA and meet the POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION.

ALL OF IT INCLUDING HOW AND WHY YOU MEET THOSE EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

What is not negotiable is the same thing I told Mrs.Flint in the beginning...

EITHER WE DO THE MB PLANS...

ALL of them.

Or we're done.

She tested me to see if I was bluffing...

I wasn't and she knew it.

I think if I had wavered or not been ready to follow through on ending the M if she backed out we would not have made it and have the M we both dreamed about.

Follow the Plans...

ALL OF THEM.

For BOTH of you.

God bless.

Jim

Indeed, sir.

Suppose the tone of this thread set off the battle of the sexes right from the beginning.

So we do the him/her arguments, blah blah blah.

Don't feel like pouring back over, yet the gynocentric vs androcentric arguments, and the literature and conversations used to support these arguments are ignoring another key statement from within these readings; that in most situations, the only thing preventing an A on the part of BOTH spouses is opportunity for one spouse or the other. The M is just THAT declined.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Q - 10/20/10 04:11 PM
Also...

In MOST situations...

The FWW...the real deal...will do whatever the BH wants sexually within the bounds of decency. In the end...after recovery...there won't be issues of what she did with or for the OM that she won't do with you.

edited to add: In fact...after working the MB program SF is happening way more often and it's WAY more satisfying TO BOTH OF US than it ever was pre-affair.

Mr. W
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Q - 10/20/10 04:27 PM
Mr. W, I think one reason for that was because both of you wanted your M and each other MORE than you wanted to hold on to the crap - whether the crap be an OM or a gigantic bitter chip on the shoulder. Because no M can recover if either of those things are present.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Q - 10/20/10 04:39 PM
Besides, veggie crisps w/ a nice low cal ranch are much better than chips...
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Q - 10/20/10 04:55 PM
HHH, I had to read that 3 times before I got it. Shame on you.

I prefer fat free Pringles.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Q - 10/20/10 04:58 PM
I like Sun Chips, or a nice whole wheat cracker topped with a thin slice of Havarti cheese.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Q - 10/20/10 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
HHH, I had to read that 3 times before I got it. Shame on you.

I prefer fat free Pringles.

crazy

Love a good debate. I'm a perpetual student, and debate is one of the best ways (for me) to learn. It allows us not only to gain new information, but also allows us to examine our own biases and how to move past them (if we are inclined to do so).

This often frustrates the W. frown

Add a little fun, relax the tone, discuss on!!!
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Q - 10/20/10 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Mr. W, I think one reason for that was because both of you wanted your M and each other MORE than you wanted to hold on to the crap - whether the crap be an OM or a gigantic bitter chip on the shoulder. Because no M can recover if either of those things are present.

EVENTUALLY....

There was a whole lotta crap the first year of recovery, but I had to decide what was real and what was fog. I certainly didn't KNOW I wanted my marriage. I knew I didn't want what we had pre-affair so I just looked at the situation as an opportunity rather than a impediment to what I really wanted all along....FOR BOTH OF US.

Thinking back...the only fortunate thing about me having had pre-marital sex was I that I was pretty confident that I was pretty good in the SF department. That the sexual hangup matters and difficulty (re)connecting, back then, were about HER and what she was going through and NOT a reflection upon me. It got to a point where I eventually, in frustration, had to point out to her affair sex wasn't all that...that I could go out and have my own affair with any number of women and they'd think it was TREMENDOUS as well...I, too, could put on a show and pull out my best techniques and all, but, in all reality it would be nothing more than EMPTY and MEANINGLESS sf. Fortunately, we were at the perfect time in her recovery that that point sunk in and stuck.

We also went through the hysterical bonding thing ourselves...when SF really wasn't much about making love but rather just having lots of SF. No doubt, IF there was something that she'd never done with me (which there wasn't)...it would have happened during this period of time. That's one way to alleviate the "issues" brought up in these difficult threads...make them a non-issue early on when the wayward is still in the recapturing their youth phase and, most likely, much less inhibited.

We faked it until we made it, I guess.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Q - 10/20/10 05:51 PM
We did some of that too. That does bring up a point I have wondered about as well. When DH and I married we were both virgins. I am the only woman he has ever been with. But he is no longer the only man I have ever been with. I think that was a very very hard thing for him. We waited 26 and 30 years.....then I added someone else to something sacred. I know that was a point that was very hard for him to move past.

DH never gave me any guarantee past "today" that he was staying for awhile. He needed to see changes in me and honesty in me for awhile first. But once he became comfortable/safe in the fact that I was no longer wayward and was doing the work, he went all in....100%.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Q - 10/20/10 07:24 PM
DW and I both had a fair amount of partners before we met. Through marriage and time, those previous partners became regrets. However, you can't fix the past. Now I have to apply that thinking to the fact that after 13 years she allowed herself to be hornswaggled. It's not easy.

Previous partners, the OM from the A - I have no competition. Similar to as Mr. W has stated; I work very hard to make myself a desirable partner. Not as much in a physical aspect, but in connecting, communicating, and sharing myself rather than only trying to achieve a self-centered experience. Even then, I am rewarded not only in being fulfilled myself, but by fulfilling DW.

I think there might still be some hysterical bonding still going on. Probably so. However, it is her attitude and approach that has changed, and so I'm even more receptive.

Dunno. Dizzying sometimes.

* I'm still in the "today" spot. At a certain point in the trickle-truth stage, I was more optimistic, and I lost it to the entire horrible truth. At that point, she was "today" oriented because she was convinced I was going to leave once the truth came out.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So are you saying MB doesn't work?

No...I never said that. I have the MB books. I also have that other book which I found to be pretty truthful and inline with much (not all) of what Dr. Harley describes....why women lose hope.

Quote
Or are you saying even though they made efforts, they were not using the program that works, and possibly their work was doing even more damage.

I'm saying that efforts were made to be more clear but even when the message is clear, the H didn't want to hear it.

Quote
Efforts are great, but we all know it's not the amount of work one does that is measured, but the quality of that work.

Agreed

Quote
Go read the story about Why Women Leave Men. These are not men who are abusive, lazy, or anything else. They too are engaged in efforts. The question for BOTH the WW and the BH is are they engaged in the efforts that will maintain, or restore and maintain romantic love.

I have read Why Women Leave Men many times, EE. Nowhere does it say that these men are not abusive, lazy, etc. From that article:

"When all forms of spousal neglect are grouped together, we find that it is far ahead of all the other reasons combined that women leave men. Surprisingly few women divorce because of physical abuse, infidelity, alcoholism, criminal behavior, fraud, or other serious grounds. In fact, I find myself bewildered by women in serious physical danger refusing to leave men that threaten their safety."

Actually that supports what I'm saying. They are not leaving abusive, addicted, or unfaithful men. They are leaving men they PERCEIVE are ignoring them, or not paying attention to them.

But how does Dr H go on to describe the men?

Quote
When I talk to their husbands, they usually have a very different explanation as to why their wives feel the way they do. They often feel that the expectations of women in general, and their wives in particular, have grown completely out of reach. These men, who feel that they've made a gigantic effort to be caring and sensitive to their wives, get no credit whatsoever for their sizeable contribution to the family. They feel under enormous pressure to improve their financial support, improve the way they raise their children, and improve the way they treat their wives. Many men I see are emotionally exhausted and feel that for all their effort, they get nothing but criticism.

These are men who are working hard, and from THEIR PERSPECTIVE, get no praise, just criticism.

So tell me, from reading that article, why do you dismiss the mans perspective, treating it as invalid, while continuing to treat the womans perspective as it's the only one valid?

Originally Posted by black_raven
That few women leave because of the reasons listed above does not mean the element is not present...only that the wife didn't leave the marriage over it...she sucks it up. Most women I know put up with a lot...primarily because of the children. I'm sure there are men that do the same but the article is about why women leave.

So more blame the man I see.

This is why men feel the way they do, like nothing ever reaches the standard. It gets tiring to deal with someone who refuses to take any blame and continues to shift blame.

Women choose divorce 2 to 3 times more frequently than men, but it's the mans fault?

Women break up families 2 to 3 times more than men, but it's the man's fault there is no father in the home.

Sorry, but I call B.S.

What you are presenting is the same sort of sick justification used to justify affairs. The wife only had an affair because her husband drove her to it. The wife only left the marriage because her husband drove her to it.

I'm sorry, but both are ugly blame shifts, and should be shouted down on this site.

People own their own behavior. If they choose a divorce, they own it, pure and simple. If they have an affair, they own it, pure and simple.

Originally Posted by black_raven
Quote
Just as the wife is telling her husband he's not engaged in the right efforts, if the message is not getting the desired results, is the message being delivered in an effective manner, or does the message destroy any possible hope for change?

If the desired result is not being achieved it could be that the message isn't being delivered in an effective manner. I have never disagreed with that. But there are men (and women of course) who simply don't "listen" or want to hear what the other spouse is saying because they have already made up their mind that they are right and the other spouse is wrong, etc. I think this dynamic is seen in most marriages that are having problems.
We see it right here. Instead of you "listening to me" you are grasping at straws, speculating that the women who walk away or have affairs, or whatever they are doing to end their marriages are largely victims.

I don't buy it. I simply don't buy it. I hear what you are saying. But I've looked and in places where the likely hood that custody will be joint or that her husband will get custody, there are far fewer women filing for divorce.

Most women are choosing divorce more than men because they think it's a better deal for them.

Not saying men are morally superior. I think the only reason more men don't choose divorce is because they don't perceive that they can win an equitable settlement if they find themselves in a bad marriage.
Originally Posted by black_raven
When I spoke with Steve, he agreed that men (IN GENERAL) don't listen to their wives. Isn't that what is basically summed up in the article?

Actually no. What's summed up in the article is that men and women both think they are doing a lot of work, and NEITHER believe they are heard by the other.

The man is begging his wife to appreciate what he's doing, and she refuses. She discounts it. It's a vicious cycle. Instead of building him up for his willingness to work, she criticizes the fact that it's not exactly like she wants it.

One is certainly going to tune out when all they think they here is criticism and not praise.

I think you are missing a key part of the article. If you want your man to listen, you better find some things to praise him about, because if all he thinks he's hearing is criticism, pretty soon he won't hear you at all.

Attack problems, not people. If your husband (or wife) thinks they are being attacked, you are not raising the issue in an effective manner.

If your husband perceives he's being criticized, then stop focusing on your husband, and focus on the topic.

Example Attack: "You never take me out."

Example Problem Statement" "I would like to go out for a date at least one night a week."

The first will shut down any conversation, or derail it. The second will focus on the problem.

Both are clear. The first is also clearly an attack, and will result in defense, not communication.

It takes more than being more clear. It takes addressing the problem.
Originally Posted by writer1
All I know is that, in my case, I told my H directly. "I'm not feeling good about our marriage. Something is missing. I don't feel connected to you anymore. It seems like we don't have very much in common anymore. We don't seem to enjoy doing the same things. We don't talk the way we used to. We need to start working together on some of these issues, because it feels like we are drifting apart." We had very long conversations about the issue and I certainly tried to be as clear and direct as possible. I've never been a beat around the bush kind of person.
So what suggestions did you come up with? If you told me, I don't feel connected to you anymore, I'd wonder what you were doing to connect, especially if I felt connected to you.

So if you said to me you didn't feel connected, I'd ask what you are doing to connect? You think that's clear, but really, what does connected mean? I might think we just connected last night and I thought it was great. You seemed to enjoy it too, now you are telling me you don't feel connected. Maybe we need to get the kids out of the house and go connect again and see if you feel connected this time.

I say that sort of tongue in cheek, but the reality is it's a subjective term, and if you don't define it, it's going to be hard to find a solution to being connected.
Originally Posted by writer1
After my A, my H very much admitted that I attempted to talk to him about our problems on a number of occasions. He certainly knew I had been feeling disconnected. He simply didn't know what to do about it. But he was very aware of the problem.
OK, so he listened didn't he? He simply didn't know. Obviously you didn't know either because having an affair doesn't seem an effective way of improving connection with your husband.
Originally Posted by writer1
After my A, I saw some amazing changes in my H, so he was certainly capable of addressing the issues. Unfortunately, not all of those initial changes stuck, and we have done a lot of backsliding in our relationship. Certainly there are still things we need to work on, from both of our sides. I do know one thing, no matter how miserable the state of your marriage is, an A will only make things worse, never better. I will never try to "solve" my problems in such a horrendous, selfish way again.

But to make a blanket statement that men are "blind sided" by the A simply because their wives did not effectively communicate their unhappiness in the marriage simply doesn't work.
Well, you husband listened, and you said so. You were both in the very same state, neither of you knew what to do. Yet some how it was his fault, or he was wrong for not knowing, or more wrong, or whatever.

So was he expecting your affair? No, he was blindsided. He listened, had as much insight as you did, yet he was likely blindsided by your affair.

Did you effectively communicate the solution you wanted in steps he could act upon prior to your affair?

Apparently not since you admit neither of you knew what to do? So how did he fail to listen to you and do what you wanted?

You didn't know the solution, but blame him for not knowing when you yourself didn't know.
Originally Posted by writer1
I'm sure that's the case in some marriages, but certainly not all.

I'd say most. Most folks don't know how to communicate, brainstorm, attack problems not people, etc.

I'd say most find themselves in these situations.
Quote
Actually that supports what I'm saying. They are not leaving abusive, addicted, or unfaithful men. They are leaving men they PERCEIVE are ignoring them, or not paying attention to them.

I don't see that. Maybe Dr. H will clarify or this could be a radio question. I see it as him saying that despite the other abuses listed that more women file D over neglect than anything else...not that the neglect is imagined or that her H was trying (which he may have been). There may or may not be abuses.

I am not dismissing the H's perception. I do not doubt he is frustrated for a variety of reasons. Perception is not reality though...we'd be listening to wayward fogbabble as reality then. Dr H says:

Quote
I have little trouble convincing most men that verbal and physical abuse are legitimate reasons for their wives to leave. And there has been increasing social pressure on men lately to avoid hurting their wives physically and verbally, which makes my job even easier.

But neglect is a much tougher sell, and it is also much more difficult to overcome than abuse. While it is the most important reason women leave men, it is hard to convince men that it is a legitimate reason, something they should avoid at all costs.

Some of the common complaints I hear from women is, "He ignores me except when he wants sex, he sits and watches television when he could be talking to me, he rarely calls me to see how I'm doing, he hurts my feelings and then never apologizes: Instead, he tells me I'm too sensitive."

Most husbands are mystified by these complaints. They feel that their wives demand too much, and that most other women would be ecstatic if married to them. Their wives have become spoiled, take their efforts for granted and have unrealistic expectations.

Do women expect too much of their husbands or are men doing less for their wives than they should? I've proven to husbands over and over again that their wives usually do not expect too much of them, and when they understand and respond to their wives' frustration, the complaining ends and a terrific marriage begins.

What's more, their wives are not expecting more effort from them. Instead, they expect efforts in a different direction. It isn't more difficult to please women these days, it simply requires a change in the priority of effort.

I don't see that as dismissing men but those are Dr. H's observations, not the perceptions of women. Is he making stuff up?

We can go round and round, EE. In short, women are asked what is on their minds and in their hearts and when an answer is given it is dismissed...you don't buy it...well I don't know what answer will ever be acceptable then. I am not bashing men but if men want to understand the way most, many, 82.57% of women think, telling them that their grievances are imagined, skewed or whatever isn't going to help. I am not saying that ALL men or ALL women are like this or that.

I don't even know how the comment of being morally superior came into play. confused
"So what suggestions did you come up with?"

My suggestions were that we needed to spend more time together doing things that we both enjoyed. We needed to have more conversations that did not revolve around his job and his interests, since it seemed that all we were talking about at that point was business, self-improvement, and politics (all his interests, not mine) and family stuff related to finances and the kids. He asked what I wanted to talk about, so I told him I would love to talk about books and writing (my interests). His response was, well I don't know anything about those things so I probably wouldn't have much to say. I told him I didn't know much about his interests either, but we still talked about them.

A big issue for me was that my H didn't read my writing. Writing was/is a huge part of my life, and I really wanted to share that with him. He always said he wasn't a reader, so he wouldn't know how to give me useful feedback anyway. I told him I wasn't looking for feedback, it was just a very important part of my life that I wanted to share with him. He agreed to start reading some of my writing, but he never did. This hurt me a lot because it made me feel very unimportant to him.

Guess what? After my A, my H started reading some of my writing. He started reading in general, and talking to me about books and other things he knew I was interested in. I didn't even ask him to. He just did it, because he finally realized it was important to me. He remembered those conversations and incorporated those needs that I had into his Plan A. Smart man. Would have been smarter if he had listened in the first place, but I was very clear on what my needs were and he later (after my A) admitted that and that he simply didn't have the motivation at the time to do anything about it. Putting it another way, he didn't care enough until he realized that failing to change would probably result in the loss of his marriage.

"OK, so he listened didn't he? He simply didn't know. Obviously you didn't know either because having an affair doesn't seem an effective way of improving connection with your husband."

Well, he may have listened, but it didn't result in any action. I knew exactly what we needed to do to reconnect. As I stated above, we needed to have more time together where he talked about/did things we were both interested in. Instead, we were primarily talking about/doing the things he liked and I was bored out of my mind. We did have common interests at one time, but we weren't doing any of those things anymore. I wanted to incorporate our common interests, as well as my interests, into how we were spending our time together and he was perfectly happy going along as we had been, talking about and doing the things he was currently interested in. I certainly didn't mind doing things he wanted to do, but I did mind only doing the things he liked.

"So was he expecting your affair? No, he was blindsided. He listened, had as much insight as you did, yet he was likely blindsided by your affair."

I don't think he was nearly as blindsided as some men would have been, since he had been unfaithful for a number of years in our marriage. I think he was shocked that I would actually go out and do something like that. So was I. But I think he honestly believed that he deserved it. I actually had to fight to take ownership of my A. He wanted to take all of the blame, and I knew it wasn't his fault. Yes, the terrible state of our marriage was partially his fault, but my A was all mine. I was the one who decided that, no matter what and no matter who got hurt, my needs were going to be met one way or the other.

"Did you effectively communicate the solution you wanted in steps he could act upon prior to your affair?"

Yes, to the best of my ability, I think I did. Could I have done more? Probably, but after years of being cheated on and ignored, I had pretty much given up trying. But I certainly told him what I thought was missing in our marriage and what I would like to do to improve it. I got no response. I pretty much got, "this is the way I am, take it or leave it."


Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So more blame the man I see.

This is why men feel the way they do, like nothing ever reaches the standard. It gets tiring to deal with someone who refuses to take any blame and continues to shift blame.

Women choose divorce 2 to 3 times more frequently than men, but it's the mans fault?

Women break up families 2 to 3 times more than men, but it's the man's fault there is no father in the home.

Sorry, but I call B.S.

What you are presenting is the same sort of sick justification used to justify affairs. The wife only had an affair because her husband drove her to it. The wife only left the marriage because her husband drove her to it.

I'm sorry, but both are ugly blame shifts, and should be shouted down on this site.


And yet the fact remains that Dr. Harley has seen many recovered marriages where the woman does not apologize for her affair, and very few where the man has not apologized for his. He has a few hypotheses centering around the polygamous history of mankind (from http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8001_affair.html ):

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
I've found that breaking a man away from his lover after he reconciles with his wife usually proves more difficult than breaking a woman away from her lover. I am not sure why this is so. Perhaps women feel more uncomfortable loving two men, while men adjust better to multiple relationships. Throughout history, in the common system of polygamy, men have supported many women, but most societies have not permitted women to do the same. Usually sociologists have assumed this discrimination had an economic base (men could support women, but women could not usually support men), but the reason may also turn out to be emotional -- men usually enjoy having several wives, while most women find having several husbands to be repulsive.

Life isn't fair. Anybody who tells you differently is trying to sell you something.

The world sucks. If it didn't, we'd all fall off it.

An important part of recovery is acknowledging the role your actions -- or inaction -- played in creating the conditions in which an affair could take place, and apologizing for them. I was a pretty lousy husband, constantly playing computer games, ignoring the children, and never doing housework. I can't say I'm perfect at any of these today, but I'm much better. That isn't blameshifting: that's reality. Neglected emotional needs are a powerful indicator for a future affair. That's why Dr. Harley's method addresses it.

Dr. Harley also addresses some other odd differences. Most of the time, a wife's list of her husband's annoying habits far outnumber the husband's list of his wife's annoying habits. Why is this? Nobody is certain, but it's empirically true that it is the case. And even if husbands didn't do the cheating, it's imperative that he eliminate his most egregious Love Busters.

It's not blameshifting to acknowledge the reality before us. More men neglect their wife's emotional needs than wives neglect their husband's. More wives are annoyed by their husband's behavior than husbands are annoyed by their wife's behavior. Although men and women cheat at equal rates, women often have more to resent than men. Nature of the beast.

Recovery requires acknowledging these failures and remedying them. I can assure you that, in the wake of my wife's affair, I had a lot more of my own behaviors to fix in order to build a compatible lifestyle than she did. Don't know why, but it's just the way it is with most men!
But isn't it her PERCEPTION that she's ignored?

You are calling the BH's view a perception, but treating the WAW or WW's view as if it's fact.

It's perception, just like his view is.

You cannot treat them differently. If you are treating his as perception, you have to treat her view the same way.

If you are treating her view as fact, then his has to be treated the same way.

Pick a consistent standard and treat both the same.

If the guy says he's working and the woman says she's ignored, then either both are fact or both are perception.

Since you've chosen to treat what she reports as fact, then it all gets treated that way.

The notion that women are not leaving abusive, adulterous or addictive men is as solid a fact as what the women are reporting.

Likewise, the relationship work ethic being reported by betrayed or abandoned husbands is just as much fact as what is being reported by these women.

So if you are going to accept the WAW/WW at face value, then the same benefit of the doubt should be granted to both Dr H and the betrayed or abandoned husband.

I simply don't see you giving the same credit to the words reported by the BH as are reported by the WW/WAW, or Dr H's comment about how these men are not abusive, etc.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
The notion that women are not leaving abusive, adulterous or addictive men is as solid a fact as what the women are reporting.

Well, my H actually was adulterous, so I would have been perfectly within my rights to leave him because of that. His adultery, however, did not give me the right to cheat on him. Two wrongs do not make a right.
EE,

This question is going to sound weird, but I am asking it with honesty and no snarkiness. And understand that I believe that there is NO justification for an A and that what I chose to do 4 1/2 years ago was despicable.

Is there ANY case in which you think the man might NOT have been the husband he should be....and case where he actually DID fall short and neglect his wife? Or is it always that the woman is just some selfish walkaway hussy?

I am asking because a man (or woman) who has been so hurt that the opposite sex can never be redeemed or that waywards will always be wayward....it makes a difference.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
But isn't it her PERCEPTION that she's ignored?

I am reading the letter of the article, EE. Again, Dr. H has stated his findings and observations. He did state the perceptions of both men and women and then went on to state what he has concluded...that the neglect is real. He even goes on to explain why an H should invite the W into every room of the house.

How can a man who works long hours and doesn't include his wife in RC during his free time not have a neglected wife? There are only so many hours in the day. That is only an example as there can be a number of factors of what is going on in the marriage and the roles each spouse plays. A man would be neglected if the shoe was on the other foot. Neglect is not an excuse for an A...I never said it was...but it leads to an emotional disconnect which makes the marriage more vulnerable to one.

We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
The notion that women are not leaving abusive, adulterous or addictive men is as solid a fact as what the women are reporting.

Well, my H actually was adulterous, so I would have been perfectly within my rights to leave him because of that. His adultery, however, did not give me the right to cheat on him. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And you didn't leave, so how does his affair apply to the idea that the women leaving husbands are for the majority NOT leaving husbands who cheat, beat, etc?

Your data point doesn't satisfy the criteria in two ways:

1. You didn't leave him, you are still married.
2. He cheated.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
But isn't it her PERCEPTION that she's ignored?

I am reading the letter of the article, EE. Again, Dr. H has stated his findings and observations. He did state the perceptions of both men and women and then went on to state what he has concluded...that the neglect is real. He even goes on to explain why an H should invite the W into every room of the house.

How can a man who works long hours and doesn't include his wife in RC during his free time not have a neglected wife? There are only so many hours in the day. That is only an example as there can be a number of factors of what is going on in the marriage and the roles each spouse plays. A man would be neglected if the shoe was on the other foot. Neglect is not an excuse for an A...I never said it was...but it leads to an emotional disconnect which makes the marriage more vulnerable to one.

We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

So men FEEL they are working hard, and women FEEL ignored, and both are the man's fault?

I'm not arguing against them feeling neglected.

What I'm asking is how is it the man's fault that she leaves? Why not blame her for him not feeling appreciated? After all, if we blame him for her feeling neglected, then isn't his feeling un-appreciated simply another form of neglect?

Why is she getting a pass for her neglect and allowed to shift the blame to him for her choice to walk away, but he's supposed to shoulder it all, and take the blame that his wife walked out?

I'm not saying the guy can't improve. What I'm saying is how is it that the burden falls on the guy who has loyally stuck it out, in spite of the neglect he's received?

The article is one-sided. What it doesn't mention is that the husband is also a victim of neglect, and it's followed up by the ultimate neglect. She leaves him, or she has an affair, or both.

So while folks seem to focused ONLY on his neglect, her neglect gets a pass.

Excuse me?

Walking away from your husband, or having an affair is NUCLEAR NEGLECT, and that shouldn't be forgotten.

So if we are going to talk neglect, and I don't argue there wasn't. I simply argue why she chooses to leave and gets a pass while he's endured likely the same sort of neglect and hasn't left?
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
But isn't it her PERCEPTION that she's ignored?

I am reading the letter of the article, EE. Again, Dr. H has stated his findings and observations. He did state the perceptions of both men and women and then went on to state what he has concluded...that the neglect is real. He even goes on to explain why an H should invite the W into every room of the house.

How can a man who works long hours and doesn't include his wife in RC during his free time not have a neglected wife? There are only so many hours in the day. That is only an example as there can be a number of factors of what is going on in the marriage and the roles each spouse plays. A man would be neglected if the shoe was on the other foot. Neglect is not an excuse for an A...I never said it was...but it leads to an emotional disconnect which makes the marriage more vulnerable to one.

We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

I invited my ex-wife into every room of my house as the article said, long before she had her affair. She chose to stay out. She chose to stay with the children and sucked into soap operas and shopping.

I think I still have the e-mail from 9/2003 when I shared the article with her and said she has always been invited into every aspect of my life.

I think you might blush at the response.

So I wonder, how many women who think they are left out are simply ignoring the invitation to enter into those rooms, or actually refuse to enter, and then blame their husbands when they've not chosen to enter open rooms into which they were repeatedly invited?
Who ever said that all of the blame lies with the man and not with the woman? I certainly don't think Dr. H said that.

It takes two people to make a good marriage and it takes two people to make a bad one.

No one is trying to place all of the blame on the husband, and no one is giving the wife a "pass" for neglecting her husband.

Both people in a marriage have needs that have to be met by their spouse in order to create a mutually satisfying relationship. I don't think anyone here ever said otherwise.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
But isn't it her PERCEPTION that she's ignored?

I am reading the letter of the article, EE. Again, Dr. H has stated his findings and observations. He did state the perceptions of both men and women and then went on to state what he has concluded...that the neglect is real. He even goes on to explain why an H should invite the W into every room of the house.

How can a man who works long hours and doesn't include his wife in RC during his free time not have a neglected wife? There are only so many hours in the day. That is only an example as there can be a number of factors of what is going on in the marriage and the roles each spouse plays. A man would be neglected if the shoe was on the other foot. Neglect is not an excuse for an A...I never said it was...but it leads to an emotional disconnect which makes the marriage more vulnerable to one.

We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

I invited my ex-wife into every room of my house as the article said, long before she had her affair. She chose to stay out. She chose to stay with the children and sucked into soap operas and shopping.

I think I still have the e-mail from 9/2003 when I shared the article with her and said she has always been invited into every aspect of my life.

I think you might blush at the response.

So I wonder, how many women who think they are left out are simply ignoring the invitation to enter into those rooms, or actually refuse to enter, and then blame their husbands when they've not chosen to enter open rooms into which they were repeatedly invited?

Or how many women didn't perceive their H's actions as actual invitations to enter into those rooms in the first place? Remember, just because he thinks he is effectively communicating something doesn't make it so. If the wife can be guilty of ineffective communication (as you have stated so many times is the case), then so can the H.

Who's applying a double standard now?
Really, so black_raven's thoughts that more husbands are abusive or adulterous are praising those husbands?

The facts are 2/3's to 3/4's of all divorces are filed by women.

Yet we keep hearing from one source or another that men are abandoning families.

Dr Harley says that most of the men being left by wives are not men who engage in marital misconduct such as affairs, abuse or addiction.

Yet we still hear how men are abandoning families.

The facts don't bear that out. Men are not abandoning families, they are being discarded by the women who leave them or betray them.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Really, so black_raven's thoughts that more husbands are abusive or adulterous are praising those husbands?

I never said such a thing, EE.
Originally Posted by writer1
It takes two people to make a good marriage and it takes two people to make a bad one.

The latter is not necessarily true. One spouse can blow up a marriage all on their own. I have never bought the 50/50 argument of responsibility either just because there are 2 people involved.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Really, so black_raven's thoughts that more husbands are abusive or adulterous are praising those husbands?

I never said such a thing, EE.

I didn't see her say this either.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by writer1
It takes two people to make a good marriage and it takes two people to make a bad one.

The latter is not necessarily true. One spouse can blow up a marriage all on their own. I have never bought the 50/50 argument of responsibility either just because there are 2 people involved.

And I didn't say the split was always 50/50. But I think it is very rare to find a marriage where one partner is 100% good and the other is 100% bad. No one is perfect. We can all do better. If there are problems in the marriage, they cannot usually be blamed completely on one partner while the other remains totally innocent.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by writer1
It takes two people to make a good marriage and it takes two people to make a bad one.

The latter is not necessarily true. One spouse can blow up a marriage all on their own. I have never bought the 50/50 argument of responsibility either just because there are 2 people involved.

And I didn't say the split was always 50/50. But I think it is very rare to find a marriage where one partner is 100% good and the other is 100% bad. No one is perfect. We can all do better. If there are problems in the marriage, they cannot usually be blamed completely on one partner while the other remains totally innocent.

I will be more clear... grin

I brought that 50/50 part up because I didn't know if you were aware that is my position. I don't think anyone is 100% good or bad either...only that each spouse is 100% responsible for themselves. Agreed that we can all do better.
No problem black raven.

I've struggled with this myself at times.

My H's A started a week after we got married. Actually, it was with an ex-girlfriend he'd never really gotten over (even though she was married with a kid by then), so it really started before the wedding. I just didn't know about it until a week after. I mean, I wasn't really given much of a chance to be a good wife there, was I?

But, I certainly could have handled the situation better. If I had only known about absolute NC and meeting each other's EN's and avoiding LB's back then. I certainly would have done things differently, and maybe I wouldn't have suffered through the agony of my H being in love with another woman for 10 years. There were certainly better ways I could have and should have handled the situation. But I was young and scared and I didn't know much about marriage at all.
writer,

Your non-MB response to the affair could hardly be described as a contribution to the problem in the marriage. The problem was the AFFAIR that was set to happen even before you got married. Your H was 100% responsible for the affair and therefore 100% responsible for the problem in the marriage.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Is there ANY case in which you think the man might NOT have been the husband he should be....and case where he actually DID fall short and neglect his wife? Or is it always that the woman is just some selfish walkaway hussy?

I am asking because a man (or woman) who has been so hurt that the opposite sex can never be redeemed or that waywards will always be wayward....it makes a difference.

Lurioosi,
I don't understand your last sentence because it doesn't make sense - it makes a difference for what? What are you getting at?

It seems like EE is saying that there is a sense of entitlement with WWs... they want to walk away from their affair and "get back in line", and not adjust their attitudes inside necessarily, just adjust their behavior and try to "work on their marriage". It seems like he's saying women hold onto resentment post-A, and one way in which they do that is through denial of SF.

Let's face it: although people can change, tigers never change their stripes. So, while "once a wayward, always a wayward" is a blanket generalization, the burden of proof is on each individual wayward, no? Because they HAVE crossed a line that no one should cross. Because they HAVE proven that they care more about their own selfish pleasure than their mate.

I think your question is completely immaterial. Of COURSE you could find husbands who are "to blame" for the state of their marriage leading up to a wife's A. What about a physically abusive spouse? But in MOST cases, statistically speaking, that is not the case. WWs do NOT tend to "own their actions". They still feel like victims, even after their "repentance". Compare that to a TYPICAL WH. Very different animals, no?

Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
But isn't it her PERCEPTION that she's ignored?

I am reading the letter of the article, EE. Again, Dr. H has stated his findings and observations. He did state the perceptions of both men and women and then went on to state what he has concluded...that the neglect is real. He even goes on to explain why an H should invite the W into every room of the house.

How can a man who works long hours and doesn't include his wife in RC during his free time not have a neglected wife? There are only so many hours in the day. That is only an example as there can be a number of factors of what is going on in the marriage and the roles each spouse plays. A man would be neglected if the shoe was on the other foot. Neglect is not an excuse for an A...I never said it was...but it leads to an emotional disconnect which makes the marriage more vulnerable to one.

We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

I invited my ex-wife into every room of my house as the article said, long before she had her affair. She chose to stay out. She chose to stay with the children and sucked into soap operas and shopping.

I think I still have the e-mail from 9/2003 when I shared the article with her and said she has always been invited into every aspect of my life.

I think you might blush at the response.

So I wonder, how many women who think they are left out are simply ignoring the invitation to enter into those rooms, or actually refuse to enter, and then blame their husbands when they've not chosen to enter open rooms into which they were repeatedly invited?

Or how many women didn't perceive their H's actions as actual invitations to enter into those rooms in the first place? Remember, just because he thinks he is effectively communicating something doesn't make it so. If the wife can be guilty of ineffective communication (as you have stated so many times is the case), then so can the H.

Who's applying a double standard now?

I never said he was effective. If she didn't enter, I'd say he wasn't effective. Nothing double standard about that.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Really, so black_raven's thoughts that more husbands are abusive or adulterous are praising those husbands?

I never said such a thing, EE.

You are right, I took the following to say that, and I can see how it really cannot be taken that way:

Originally Posted by black_raven
We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

Sorry I was reading this wrong.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
EE,

This question is going to sound weird, but I am asking it with honesty and no snarkiness. And understand that I believe that there is NO justification for an A and that what I chose to do 4 1/2 years ago was despicable.

Is there ANY case in which you think the man might NOT have been the husband he should be....and case where he actually DID fall short and neglect his wife? Or is it always that the woman is just some selfish walkaway hussy?

I am asking because a man (or woman) who has been so hurt that the opposite sex can never be redeemed or that waywards will always be wayward....it makes a difference.

Oh, I've said before there are men who neglect their wives, and that they should work to meet the emotional needs of their wives. I have no quarrel with that line of thinking.

My position is a bit more complex than your simplification.

My position is walking away from a spouse (man or woman) who is not abusive, adulterous or addicted is no different than having an affair.

They both require a renter/freeloader mindset.

At that point, the biggest rock in the jar is not his neglect, but her abandonment if not an outright affair.

To make excuses for this, which it sounds like those who cite the neglect are as welcome as any excuses offered to cover an affair. The justifications and explanations are as offensive to me as any affair justification one might read here from a WS.

If someone who took biblical vows in a church to be with their spouse, forsaking all others, regardless of gender, walks away from a spouse who is not engaged in marital misconduct such as I've described above, I view them as no different from a wayward spouse in an active affair.

The first thing that has to happen is the "affair" has to stop. In the walkaway case, the affair is an affair with the idea that their abandoned spouse is the primary reason why the marriage is bad and things are better without the abandoned or betrayed spouse.

Instead of making excuses for spouses who walk away, instead of blaming husbands by saying they neglected their spouses, why don't we condemn walking away with the same zeal we condemn affairs?

After all, it's certainly a wayward mindset. It's certainly not the mindset of one who is a buyer in the marriage.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
writer,

Your non-MB response to the affair could hardly be described as a contribution to the problem in the marriage. The problem was the AFFAIR that was set to happen even before you got married. Your H was 100% responsible for the affair and therefore 100% responsible for the problem in the marriage.

Just as she was 100% responsible for her affair and also 100% responsible for problems in the marriage.

She doesn't get a pass from responsibility just because her affair came 2nd.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I am asking because a man (or woman) who has been so hurt that the opposite sex can never be redeemed or that waywards will always be wayward....it makes a difference.

I don't have some sort of misogynistic view of women. It's a cold calculus, 2/3rds to 3/4s of all divorces are initiated by women.

If you want to save marriages, you start with the largest population who is choosing to end marriages.

Even if you address every man who files for divorce and successfully bring him to MB, you will only impact a minority of divorce cases.

If you can get 1/2 of the women who file for divorce to return to the marriage and implement MB, you will save more families than by approaching men first.
you do realize that those initiating the divorce include the cheated on right? My ex wasn't in any hurry to move out after I discovered the affair he'd been carrying on for 2 years.. and couldn't see why I wanted him gone even though he was sneaking off every night (it took me 4 months to get him out).

and he complained I "surprised him" by formally filing for divorce - after he'd been living with the OW for almost 3 years and been dragging his feet about providing for his mentally and physically handicapped son.
I do realize that.

You do realize that Dr H has said that marital misconduct, such as cheating is not at the core of most divorce filings. He clearly said he is seldom able to convince wives who are victims of such behavior to choose divorce.

Therefore, most of those wives who are choosing divorce are NOT choosing to divorce an abusive, adulterous or addicted man.

I thought I said that before, but apparently it was missed in the action.

I don't fault someone who divorces an unfaithful spouse.

However, I clearly said I'm speaking about the majority of WAW and WW cases where the BH is not engaged in marital misconduct.

That's a serious problem, and it's not the man's fault his wife has broken her vows by divorcing him.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Just as she was 100% responsible for her affair and also 100% responsible for problems in the marriage.

She doesn't get a pass from responsibility just because her affair came 2nd.
I hope you're not implying that I would treat her affair any differently from his. I did not say anything to imply that she is not responsible for her affair and the problems it caused because hers came second.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Just as she was 100% responsible for her affair and also 100% responsible for problems in the marriage.

She doesn't get a pass from responsibility just because her affair came 2nd.
I hope you're not implying that I would treat her affair any differently from his. I did not say anything to imply that she is not responsible for her affair and the problems it caused because hers came second.

I guess I read the following different:

Originally Posted by SugarCane
writer,

Your non-MB response to the affair could hardly be described as a contribution to the problem in the marriage. The problem was the AFFAIR that was set to happen even before you got married. Your H was 100% responsible for the affair and therefore 100% responsible for the problem in the marriage.

Wasn't one of her responses ultimately an affair? You are saying he was 100% responsible for the problem, including her eventual affair.

That's how I read what you wrote.

Perhaps you would like to clarify?
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?
Ya'll still at it? laugh
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

It could be any number of reasons. I don't think there is one magic answer.

People are different. Some will tolerate infidelity, others will not. Some will tolerate it once and never again.

There are too many variables to pick out a simple set.

I think there are some pretty simple rules when it comes to scripture and what God says we are to do when faced with a sinning spouse.

However, the reasons folks don't follow those rules are as varied as the reasons spouses choose to sin. Folks make choices, men and women both. Some BH's attempt to recover their marriages, others do not. Some WW's end their affairs, others do not.

Why don't all WW who are approached with a BH who is working the MB plan end up with a recovered marriage? Just as the answer to your question is varied, so is the answer to your question.

Originally Posted by writer1
My H's A started a week after we got married. Actually, it was with an ex-girlfriend he'd never really gotten over (even though she was married with a kid by then), so it really started before the wedding. I just didn't know about it until a week after. I mean, I wasn't really given much of a chance to be a good wife there, was I?

But, I certainly could have handled the situation better. If I had only known about absolute NC and meeting each other's EN's and avoiding LB's back then. I certainly would have done things differently, and maybe I wouldn't have suffered through the agony of my H being in love with another woman for 10 years. There were certainly better ways I could have and should have handled the situation. But I was young and scared and I didn't know much about marriage at all.
I don't know whether writers affair 10 years later was a response to her H's affair. I think she has talked about a number of issues that led her to take the decision to have an affair. The affair 10 years later wasn't the "response" I was referring to.

I was referring to the above, where she writes about finding out about her H's affair a week after she was married. She talks about being young and scared, which I took to refer to her mentality during the early months and years of her marriage, not the later years when she had her affair. Writer seems to be saying that she should have responded to the situation without the EN lack and LBs that she did offer. She seemed to see that panicked response as equal to the affair in causing a less than happy marriage.

EE, I wasn't arguing this point with you. I was responding to writer. You don't have to argue with everyone until you wear them down! You and I disagree profoundly on this thread and I have no wish to challenge your views for the sake of an argument.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Really, so black_raven's thoughts that more husbands are abusive or adulterous are praising those husbands?

I never said such a thing, EE.

You are right, I took the following to say that, and I can see how it really cannot be taken that way:

Originally Posted by black_raven
We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

Sorry I was reading this wrong.

No worries. I still think there is a disconnect in the 80% of W that leave and cite neglect since there are plenty of BWs/abused Ws in that amount.

Since this thread is here, there and everywhere...

I don't know when the women started cheating as much as men...or how many women stayed because they thought they were stuck due to children, finance, social pressure (I know men may stay for the same reasons too)...but in previous generations we had 'traditional' Ms where plenty of men worked, came home, and didn't talk to their wives. Men were not in delivery rooms and changing diapers like they do today. Men of prior generations cheated more than women on a whole. There was a boys will be boys mentality while the W was at home tending to the children and home. The men and women of this generation learned that. It is not a blame game, that's just the way things used to be.

No doubt there are women that don't care what their H does...they will always complain and want more. Your exWW may have simply been a ^%$#@.

Does a BH really want to make his wife feel dirty and cheap? It is often said that WSs act like they are in high school....cutesy, syrupy goo goo gaa gaa over each other. You know how many teen age girls act like skanks these days to please a boy? Sadly...LOTS!!! It is not done out of love either...it is to keep the boy interested. I'm sure there is some lust factor but a girl will go to extremes to hold on to that attention or be popular...eating disorders to be skinny, giving up her body for attention.

I get that a BH looks at what OM got...BWs look at what OW got too...and it sucks no matter how you look at it or what gender you are.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
EE, I wasn't arguing this point with you. I was responding to writer. You don't have to argue with everyone until you wear them down! You and I disagree profoundly on this thread and I have no wish to challenge your views for the sake of an argument.

You don't agree? You think WW's and WAW's should be given some sort of pass and treated like victims, and their BH's are the primary cause of the marital problems and only if they would get their acts together, then their wives wouldn't leave or betray them.

Because that's pretty much what you are saying if you say you disagree with me.

Or are you disagreeing with Dr H's point that the women leaving are not leaving abusive, adulterous or addicted husbands. Are you disagreeing with his observation that is seldom able to convince women who are victims of such marital misconduct at the hands of their husbands to leave, but those who are not victims of such misconduct are the majority of those leaving?

I'm just pointing out what Dr H has said, so are you disagreeing with Dr H?
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Really, so black_raven's thoughts that more husbands are abusive or adulterous are praising those husbands?

I never said such a thing, EE.

You are right, I took the following to say that, and I can see how it really cannot be taken that way:

Originally Posted by black_raven
We only have snippets in the article but after talking to thousands of couples, I would think there is more to HIS conclusions but they aren't detailed in the article...we'd be reading forever if he gave us thousands of examples. I'm not even sure if we can say that all observations are fact in this case since it is not an absolute but IN GENERAL that is the observed dynamic going on a lot of the time.

Sorry I was reading this wrong.

No worries. I still think there is a disconnect in the 80% of W that leave and cite neglect since there are plenty of BWs/abused Ws in that amount.

Since this thread is here, there and everywhere...

I don't know when the women started cheating as much as men...or how many women stayed because they thought they were stuck due to children, finance, social pressure (I know men may stay for the same reasons too)...but in previous generations we had 'traditional' Ms where plenty of men worked, came home, and didn't talk to their wives. Men were not in delivery rooms and changing diapers like they do today. Men of prior generations cheated more than women on a whole. There was a boys will be boys mentality while the W was at home tending to the children and home. The men and women of this generation learned that. It is not a blame game, that's just the way things used to be.

No doubt there are women that don't care what their H does...they will always complain and want more. Your exWW may have simply been a ^%$#@.

Does a BH really want to make his wife feel dirty and cheap? It is often said that WSs act like they are in high school....cutesy, syrupy goo goo gaa gaa over each other. You know how many teen age girls act like skanks these days to please a boy? Sadly...LOTS!!! It is not done out of love either...it is to keep the boy interested. I'm sure there is some lust factor but a girl will go to extremes to hold on to that attention or be popular...eating disorders to be skinny, giving up her body for attention.

I get that a BH looks at what OM got...BWs look at what OW got too...and it sucks no matter how you look at it or what gender you are.

And that's just it. The men who are here, who are seeking Dr H's help, and so forth are men of this generation. They are the ones taking care of the kids, cooking meals, working a job, and NOT CHEATING.

Yet we are still treated as if we are that previous generation.

Likewise, the women of this generation are NOT like the women of previous generations either. More are cheating, more are choosing divorce, etc. Yet they too are treated like the previous generation, and are considered victims, even when they choose to betray or abandon a current generation man.

Perhaps we start by not applying yesterday's stereotypes to either men or women.

If someone engages in mis-conduct, we don't make excuses, we hold folks responsible for their behavior.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Why don't all WW who are approached with a BH who is working the MB plan end up with a recovered marriage?

Because we can't see what is going on in someone's house we can only go by the words of each poster and maybe read between the lines if we have to. I am by no means a MB expert but some BH's are not using MB correctly. I know I have dropped the ball at times myself but I do find it alarming when some BH's post stuff that is WHAT? I'm a BW and sure as heck wouldn't feel like having sex with him either based on what he describes but I also understand the betrayal factor as well...so I throw my 2 cents in to try and help if I can. What to do?
**sigh** I give up...LOL....where's the door?

Originally Posted by lurioosi2
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

Are we full circle again? A WW can do everything. Transparent, NC letter, NC, give up job if she worked with OM, change numbers, email, block OM, move across country if OM was a neighbor, answer every question repeatedly, HB, expose OMW.

But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. There have been many forms of SF sited on MB through the years that did not mention threesomes or other extreme forms, but widely accepted acts performed by the WW on the OM but had been refused before the affair then refused to the BH post affair.

Then BHļæ½s have said the WW did OM everyday, he canļæ½t get more then twice a week before or after the affair, let alone that WW cut him off during the affair.

BHļæ½s prior to the affair have accepted that they were only going to get it less then they wanted in frequency and variety from their WW.

Then WW gives OM more and more then she ever gave her BH.

Shouldnļæ½t the BH expect to get what the OM got?

Didnļæ½t the WW show during her affair that she was able to provide SF at higher levels?

So how is the BH to believe that WW canļæ½t do for him what she proved she could do for the OM?

How is the BH to accept this?
So, let's get something clear; most posters here aren't blaming their BS for their choices in carrying out an A. What "blame" is put forth, is on the condition of a M which created the vulnerability and opportunity for an affair - in many of these cases there is responsibility both on the part of the BS and the WS for the condition of the M.

That, while it may be argued some, really isn't debatable.

The decisions which opened the tumblers up to and including infidelity belong to the WS, as does it's continuation and all actions to continue and preserve an A.

Post-A and using MB to recover the marriage, this blame game is... USELESS. If any choices and actions are to be reviewed, it is to be done to 1) change attitudes and behaviors to prevent ANY chance of any further extramarital activity by either spouse, and 2) not wallow or dwell in past mistakes, but to acknowledge them and the damage they do to a M, and to prevent them from happening and build a better marriage.

Some people are not going to adopt the principles and adapt themselves to recovery accordingly. This is a matter of responsibility for THAT PARTICULAR PERSON.

Generational comparisons may seem nice, but variables within those generations, when expanded, can render that argument invalid. Not to mention, we are talking about a generation with a 50% divorce rate. Divorce is the "norm," not recovery.
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by writer1
My H's A started a week after we got married. Actually, it was with an ex-girlfriend he'd never really gotten over (even though she was married with a kid by then), so it really started before the wedding. I just didn't know about it until a week after. I mean, I wasn't really given much of a chance to be a good wife there, was I?

But, I certainly could have handled the situation better. If I had only known about absolute NC and meeting each other's EN's and avoiding LB's back then. I certainly would have done things differently, and maybe I wouldn't have suffered through the agony of my H being in love with another woman for 10 years. There were certainly better ways I could have and should have handled the situation. But I was young and scared and I didn't know much about marriage at all.
I don't know whether writers affair 10 years later was a response to her H's affair. I think she has talked about a number of issues that led her to take the decision to have an affair. The affair 10 years later wasn't the "response" I was referring to.

I was referring to the above, where she writes about finding out about her H's affair a week after she was married. She talks about being young and scared, which I took to refer to her mentality during the early months and years of her marriage, not the later years when she had her affair. Writer seems to be saying that she should have responded to the situation without the EN lack and LBs that she did offer. She seemed to see that panicked response as equal to the affair in causing a less than happy marriage.

EE, I wasn't arguing this point with you. I was responding to writer. You don't have to argue with everyone until you wear them down! You and I disagree profoundly on this thread and I have no wish to challenge your views for the sake of an argument.

SC, yes that is exactly what I was referring to. I meant that I should have handled my response to my H's A differently when I first found out about it. I would have done things differently if I had known about MB. I would have insisted on NC with the OW instead of allowing her to stay in our lives (and even become my "friend"). I would have done a better job meeting my H's EN's and communicating my EN's to him, had I even known what EN's were. I would have eliminated all of the LB's and AO's that I was guilty of after discovering his A. Heck, I would have actually known that it WAS an A, since I didn't even think it was at the time, since they didn't have sex.

I do not necessarily consider my A to be a response to my H's A. I suppose they are indirectly related, since his A was ONE of the things that created distance between us. But there were a number of other issues in our M as well. IB was a big one when I started grad school and I was busy with all of my writing stuff while my H was caught up in his own interests. We drifted apart a lot after I went back to school.

Mostly, I had an A for the same reason that everyone does. I had really poor boundaries. I found myself in a situation where I was away from home (doing 2-week residencies for my MFA), spending time with people (including members of the opposite sex) who shared my interests. I had no proper boundaries in place, so when I found myself in a situation where an A could occur, it did. I can tell you that when I first started my A with the OM, my H's EA was the furthest thing from my mind. It was actually my H (and our counselor) who first suggested that there might be a connection between the two. I fought that idea at first. I just didn't see the connection at the time. Now, I can see how my H's A was one thing that contributed to our drifting apart that put me in a frame of mind where an A could occur, but it certainly wasn't the only one.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

Are we full circle again? A WW can do everything. Transparent, NC letter, NC, give up job if she worked with OM, change numbers, email, block OM, move across country if OM was a neighbor, answer every question repeatedly, HB, expose OMW.

But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. There have been many forms of SF sited on MB through the years that did not mention threesomes or other extreme forms, but widely accepted acts performed by the WW on the OM but had been refused before the affair then refused to the BH post affair.

Then BHļæ½s have said the WW did OM everyday, he canļæ½t get more then twice a week before or after the affair, let alone that WW cut him off during the affair.

BHļæ½s prior to the affair have accepted that they were only going to get it less then they wanted in frequency and variety from their WW.

Then WW gives OM more and more then she ever gave her BH.

Shouldnļæ½t the BH expect to get what the OM got?

Didnļæ½t the WW show during her affair that she was able to provide SF at higher levels?

So how is the BH to believe that WW canļæ½t do for him what she proved she could do for the OM?

How is the BH to accept this?

You're really hung up on this, aren't you?

Would you like to share whatever it is about this issue that is still bothering you in your own M so that we can stop talking about hypotheticals here and start talking about actual situations.

What is it that you would like that your WW gave the OM that she isn't giving you?

I just can't address this anymore than I already have, because my H has never complained about this and it hasn't been an issue in our recovery.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

Are we full circle again? A WW can do everything. Transparent, NC letter, NC, give up job if she worked with OM, change numbers, email, block OM, move across country if OM was a neighbor, answer every question repeatedly, HB, expose OMW.

But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. There have been many forms of SF sited on MB through the years that did not mention threesomes or other extreme forms, but widely accepted acts performed by the WW on the OM but had been refused before the affair then refused to the BH post affair.

Then BHļæ½s have said the WW did OM everyday, he canļæ½t get more then twice a week before or after the affair, let alone that WW cut him off during the affair.

BHļæ½s prior to the affair have accepted that they were only going to get it less then they wanted in frequency and variety from their WW.

Then WW gives OM more and more then she ever gave her BH.

Shouldnļæ½t the BH expect to get what the OM got?

Didnļæ½t the WW show during her affair that she was able to provide SF at higher levels?

So how is the BH to believe that WW canļæ½t do for him what she proved she could do for the OM?

How is the BH to accept this?


He doesn't have to...he has every right to divorce.

But if he stays he better look at the situation realistically.

The affair wasn't about the BH.

She didn't have an affair AT YOU.

The affair sex wasn't about the BH and it really wasn't about OM...it was about the [temporary] craziness going through HER head.

Affair sex is nasty and vulgar.

Marital sex is decent and right.

They ARE NOT comparable.

Marital recovery is about so much more than sex.

What you are saying is essential like me saying that if my wife took off and went on a two month crank bender, I should expect her to be able to stay awake for 4 days straight WITH ME partying it up after she quit.

I didn't want an affair with my wife...I wanted a LOVING marriage and a home full of love. It is my hope that any newbie reading this thread can garner hope from that message instead of viewing a bunch of grown married men complaining that their now FWW isn't satisfying them (apparently) as they perceive she satisfied OM. Dwelling on this issue is unhealthy and won't get to romantic love. Sure there is some "crap" in this issue in recovery but mostly it's about BH insecurity (which is understandable). Trust me....5 years into a good recovery...IT'S FREAKING IRRELEVANT.

Mr. Wondering
clap clap clap Mr. Wondering.
The answer is in the context of the title of the thread "Helping your BH overcome what you gave the OM.."

The solution is NOT to simply tell them I won't do this or that...

THAT only reinforce the BS feelings of inferiority and that it is HOPELESS that their W will ever value them again and that things will never change...

At a time when they desperately need to feel that there is HOPE for the marriage to be fulfilling AND that their EN's matter to the WS.

AND it doesn't mean either one, the BS or WS has to lie down and give into disrespectful demands...

You help your BH or BW to understand that you WANT to give them what they want by answering Dr.Harley's questions of:

Why do we have sex?

AND

How do we have sex?

If the betrayed spouse wants something sexual you discuss it and come to a mutually acceptable solution as Dr.Harley suggests.

If they won't POJA it (or anything else for that matter) they are not working the MB Plans and the spouse may not be a wise choice to continue being married to.

For me it was that simple.

Either I had somebody that VALUED ME enough to listen to me and MUTUALLY POJA a solution with on EVERYTHING IN THE MARRIAGE or I didn't.

The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex.

If either the WS or the BS won't POJA it they are not a candidate to remain married to.

Because they will be butting heads on not just what they gave the OM...

but EVERYTHING in the marriage...

AND...

that's not a marriage.

Jim

I let myself do it again...get sucked into answering question when someone doesn't really want an answer....they just want another chance to vilify ALL WW's as unredeemable. I'm not playing this game anymore. I should have kept my promise to myself to lurk from now on.
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

Are we full circle again? A WW can do everything. Transparent, NC letter, NC, give up job if she worked with OM, change numbers, email, block OM, move across country if OM was a neighbor, answer every question repeatedly, HB, expose OMW.

But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. There have been many forms of SF sited on MB through the years that did not mention threesomes or other extreme forms, but widely accepted acts performed by the WW on the OM but had been refused before the affair then refused to the BH post affair.

Then BHļæ½s have said the WW did OM everyday, he canļæ½t get more then twice a week before or after the affair, let alone that WW cut him off during the affair.

BHļæ½s prior to the affair have accepted that they were only going to get it less then they wanted in frequency and variety from their WW.

Then WW gives OM more and more then she ever gave her BH.

Shouldnļæ½t the BH expect to get what the OM got?

Didnļæ½t the WW show during her affair that she was able to provide SF at higher levels?

So how is the BH to believe that WW canļæ½t do for him what she proved she could do for the OM?

How is the BH to accept this?


He doesn't have to...he has every right to divorce.

But if he stays he better look at the situation realistically.

The affair wasn't about the BH.

She didn't have an affair AT YOU.

The affair sex wasn't about the BH and it really wasn't about OM...it was about the [temporary] craziness going through HER head.

Affair sex is nasty and vulgar.

Marital sex is decent and right.

They ARE NOT comparable.

Marital recovery is about so much more than sex.

What you are saying is essential like me saying that if my wife took off and went on a two month crank bender, I should expect her to be able to stay awake for 4 days straight WITH ME partying it up after she quit.

I didn't want an affair with my wife...I wanted a LOVING marriage and a home full of love. It is my hope that any newbie reading this thread can garner hope from that message instead of viewing a bunch of grown married men complaining that their now FWW isn't satisfying them (apparently) as they perceive she satisfied OM. Dwelling on this issue is unhealthy and won't get to romantic love. Sure there is some "crap" in this issue in recovery but mostly it's about BH insecurity (which is understandable). Trust me....5 years into a good recovery...IT'S FREAKING IRRELEVANT.

Mr. Wondering

Mr W you are siting extyreme acts. WHat about mundane acts? Instead of responding in general why not respond to specific questions that I asked?
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I let myself do it again...get sucked into answering question when someone doesn't really want an answer....they just want another chance to vilify ALL WW's as unredeemable. I'm not playing this game anymore. I should have kept my promise to myself to lurk from now on.

Your posts have added a lot to MB. To stop posting because you are not agreed with only takes away what you can bring here. I am not against WW's. I've seen WW's come here trying to recover their marriage where their BH does not want to recover only to see poster's here fighting to see who got to swing the biggest two by four telling her she has know right to try and save her marriage. Swinging two by fours with two hands.

I swear some MBerļæ½s were using Log Cabins.

I said they were wrong if they are willing to help a BS to recover a marriage then should not discriminate. The WS deserves the same opportunity to try to save their marriage.
"AND it doesn't mean either one, the BS or WS has to lie down and give into disrespectful demands..."

What about non disrespectful requests that are met with a refusal after the ice had already be broken by the WW?

She told her BH it's not my thing before the PA, told OM yes it's my thing.

How is the BH to believe it's beyond the WW's ability to provide in kind to her BH post PA?

"The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex."

Where is the POJA where the WW flat out refuses to give the BH what the OM got?
Originally Posted by TheRoad
"AND it doesn't mean either one, the BS or WS has to lie down and give into disrespectful demands..."

What about non disrespectful requests that are met with a refusal after the ice had already be broken by the WW?

She told her BH it's not my thing before the PA, told OM yes it's my thing.

How is the BH to believe it's beyond the WW's ability to provide in kind to her BH post PA?

We are awaiting your answer to this, TheRoad. You have been on Marriage Builders long enough to know the material. We eagerly await your answer.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
"The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex."

Where is the POJA where the WW flat out refuses to give the BH what the OM got?

Again, you have been on MB for 3 years. You should know the answer. You tell us.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I let myself do it again...get sucked into answering question when someone doesn't really want an answer....they just want another chance to vilify ALL WW's as unredeemable. I'm not playing this game anymore. I should have kept my promise to myself to lurk from now on.


That's odd, I answered your questions, and now you are simply walking away? Not even any acknowledgment of my answer either.

IIRC, you simply asked another question. You gave no indication you better understood, or that you could see why I held the view I did.

Nothing.

And now you simply want to walk away.

Fine.
This thread is really confusing me.

I know having an affair was wrong and my poor boundaries.

I have been continually told that if there was something wrong with my marriage. I should address it and try to fix it. Like Writer, I felt like I had.

I thought the next step I SHOULD have taken instead of having a nasty affair was a PLAN B type separation.

Now I am hearing Enlightened Ex state that leaving a marriage for non need meeting is just as bad as an affair.

So, now I am hearing....shouldn't have an affair....shouldn't leave marriage even if you repeatedly informed your spouse in many ways that your needs weren't being met.

What is the option???? If your spouse can't or won't comply?

I've followed many threads where plan be is recommended in non affair situations. Should the spouse remain married but living single forever? Is there a time frame?

I really am confused.
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
This thread is really confusing me.

I know having an affair was wrong and my poor boundaries.

I have been continually told that if there was something wrong with my marriage. I should address it and try to fix it. Like Writer, I felt like I had.

I thought the next step I SHOULD have taken instead of having a nasty affair was a PLAN B type separation.

Now I am hearing Enlightened Ex state that leaving a marriage for non need meeting is just as bad as an affair.

So, now I am hearing....shouldn't have an affair....shouldn't leave marriage even if you repeatedly informed your spouse in many ways that your needs weren't being met.

What is the option???? If your spouse can't or won't comply?

I've followed many threads where plan be is recommended in non affair situations. Should the spouse remain married but living single forever? Is there a time frame?

I really am confused.

Tell me this, how do you meet your husband's needs if you separate from him?

How do you implement the POJA if you make a unilateral decision to leave?

The problem with most separations, including those where there is no infidelity or abuse on the part of the abandoned husband is it was neither mutually agreed upon in a POJA arrangement, nor was it recommended by someone who is a professional versed in the MB program.

If you and your husband AGREE and I mean ENTHUSIASTICALLY, not one of those resigned to go along with agreements, that separation with specific goals, boundaries, etc is the best solution, then by all means do so.

Or, if you are working with the MB team, and they say it would be best if you separated because we've observed the following and you are doing more damage to your marriage by being with your husband, so to stop the damage you are inflicting, you should go into plan B, then I'm all for it.

Remember, a large part of plan B is to stop the damage, and that's not just the damage done by the other spouse. It equally is to protect against the damage the one following the plans is inflicting on the marriage.

If those are the cases, then I have nothing wrong with that.

However, how many separations follow those guidelines? How many are either mutually agreed upon, or on the advice of a trained professional coaching you through the MB program?

Probably a percentage so small it wouldn't register in any survey.

How can a husband be blindsided if he POJA'ed the separation with his wife? How can a husband be blindsided if he's sitting with the counselor, or on the phone hearing the counselor say the best course of action is to separate until you each can stop hurting the other?

I have no problem with that sort of separation.

Remember, we are talking about cases, which are the majority of all cases, where there is no abuse, no adultery and no addiction.

For those who want to cite, well what about any of those, that's not the topic her, and they are a non sequitur with respect to what I described above.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
So exactly what can a woman do to help her BH? Is there anything that she can do that absolutely makes a difference. And if two women in identical situations both repent and do whatever it takes, become open and honest, do EP's take all the steps with sincerity.....will both of their husbands experience true recovery? And if one BH doesn't, what might be the variable there?

Are we full circle again? A WW can do everything. Transparent, NC letter, NC, give up job if she worked with OM, change numbers, email, block OM, move across country if OM was a neighbor, answer every question repeatedly, HB, expose OMW.

But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM. There have been many forms of SF sited on MB through the years that did not mention threesomes or other extreme forms, but widely accepted acts performed by the WW on the OM but had been refused before the affair then refused to the BH post affair.

Then BHļæ½s have said the WW did OM everyday, he canļæ½t get more then twice a week before or after the affair, let alone that WW cut him off during the affair.

BHļæ½s prior to the affair have accepted that they were only going to get it less then they wanted in frequency and variety from their WW.

Then WW gives OM more and more then she ever gave her BH.

Shouldnļæ½t the BH expect to get what the OM got?

Didnļæ½t the WW show during her affair that she was able to provide SF at higher levels?

So how is the BH to believe that WW canļæ½t do for him what she proved she could do for the OM?

How is the BH to accept this?

You're really hung up on this, aren't you?

Would you like to share whatever it is about this issue that is still bothering you in your own M so that we can stop talking about hypotheticals here and start talking about actual situations.

What is it that you would like that your WW gave the OM that she isn't giving you?

I just can't address this anymore than I already have, because my H has never complained about this and it hasn't been an issue in our recovery.


Take your case and we pretend your H never had an EA.

We are left with a BH that has to accept that his WW had a PA that restarted every time she went to school. And wants to continue getting an education, trigger.

That to keep his family intact has to accept the PA.

That to keep his family intact has to accept the OC.

Outside of ending the affair which should never have happened and being a good spouse which all spouses should do any way , what has the WW done to make up for the PA and the OC.



The BH or BW get what they should of gotten all along does not undo the PA or make an OC be unborn. Before people go crazy yes the OC is blameless, both the WS and the BS can love the OC.

I donļæ½t see just compensation here or after any affair. The WS got the high of a PA. We know that the BS going out for a RA never gets that same high and in the end regrets it and feels empty. The BS never gets the SF rush the OP got from the WS unless there is some HB which does not always happen.

What I see is the BS accepting the PA as over and learning not to trigger as the price they are willing to pay because they value their family life that much that they do this to keep their life intact.

That is not just compensation. That is looking at the bill and after seeing the price they at first wonder is that right or are they looking at the phone number.

The only thing a WS has to pay is that instead of implied fidelity pre affair they now have to demonstrate they will not do so anymore.

This is only fair of the WS, and the BS and the WS both have to work at meeting each otherļæ½s needs. But this should have been done since day one of the marriage.

The catch phrase of ļæ½Just Compensationļæ½ just doesnļæ½t work.
EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.

If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).

So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?

I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing.
Originally Posted by writer1
EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.

If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).

So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?

I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing.

Your name is writer1, correct? You are a writer and therefore I presume well versed in what words mean.

Please quote a paragraph where I said POJA a plan B?

I did mention POJA a SEPARATION.

The only time I wrote about a plan B was to suggest that it be done under the advice of a trained professional.

Words mean things, and I expect you of all folks, someone who claims to be a writer to either understand the words I write, or ask a clarifying question.

You did not ask a clarifying question. You wrote,

Quote
EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.

I may be an engineer, but I am sufficiently versed in English grammar to know there is no question in there.

There is a challenge in the second sentence. But the first is not a clarifying question. It's not even an accurate paraphrase. From here it looks like the classic straw man argument. It's a statement that doesn't reflect what I said, attributed to me so you can knock it down or present a challenge.

And I'm calling you on it. Knock it off, you are writer, you should know better. You should have better comprehension skills.
As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site."
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site."

I would love to pretend as though I have nothing better to do than sit around all day and argue semantics with narrow-minded people, but alas, that is not the case. You are free to continue this debate on your own if you would like, but I am going to follow Lurioosi's lead and bow out so that I can dedicate my precious time to something that matters a bit more to me than your childish attacks.

Maybe I'll take up underwater basket weaving. That seems far more productive than this.
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
This thread is really confusing me.

I know having an affair was wrong and my poor boundaries.

I have been continually told that if there was something wrong with my marriage. I should address it and try to fix it. Like Writer, I felt like I had.

I thought the next step I SHOULD have taken instead of having a nasty affair was a PLAN B type separation.

Now I am hearing Enlightened Ex state that leaving a marriage for non need meeting is just as bad as an affair.

So, now I am hearing....shouldn't have an affair....shouldn't leave marriage even if you repeatedly informed your spouse in many ways that your needs weren't being met.

What is the option???? If your spouse can't or won't comply?

I've followed many threads where plan be is recommended in non affair situations. Should the spouse remain married but living single forever? Is there a time frame?

I really am confused.


I don't know that I'd be able to do it were I in that situation so I am certainly not preaching to anyone....but YES...seperate and remain married indefinitely.

If you are religious and you took vows to your God to love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, in good times and bad time, as long as you both shall live

THEN

Where is the out for your spouse failing to meet your needs or make you "happy"????

The bible clearly gives an out for adultery (and arguably for physical abuse)...but no where does it say you can toss YOUR VOWS because they weren't making you happy.

You chose....maybe it was a poor choice...but you chose...you don't get a do-over absent specific exceptions or DEATH.

Plan A your spouse...express your boundaries...if they refuse in time...seperate and then Plan B....but no where does the plan say "divorce". Dr. Harley's "plan" comes short of that and allows you to come to your own conclusions about what to do from there.

There are millions of married individuals living seperate from their spouses. The numbers are staggering. For many...divorce isn't an option.

Mr. Wondering
Originally Posted by writer1
EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.

If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).

So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?

I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing.

How does the BH get to get what the OM got? The BH feels he will have to accept he came in second place to the OM.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site."

I would love to pretend as though I have nothing better to do than sit around all day and argue semantics with narrow-minded people, but alas, that is not the case. You are free to continue this debate on your own if you would like, but I am going to follow Lurioosi's lead and bow out so that I can dedicate my precious time to something that matters a bit more to me than your childish attacks.

Maybe I'll take up underwater basket weaving. That seems far more productive than this.

So let me understand this.

You attack me with your straw man. Yes, that's an attack.

I call you on it.

Your response it to ignore being called on it and continue your attacks asserting that I'm attacking you and you furhter try to build a consensus by trying to assert that I'm the one being childish.

Whatever. I think folks can see your evasiveness and attacks in what you've said. You are exposed for you who you are. Someone who makes false representations, and that's what a straw-man is, a false representation about someone else, and then you try to make yourself look good by knocking down the straw-man, hoping to look good before others by showing you can out-argue someone.

All you did was to expose a fraudulent nature.

You got caught and now you are going to run away. But not before you deliver yet another attack. You can't refute what I've said, so you resort to name calling (childish) and run away.

Fine, run away. Ignore being called out. Maybe folks will forget you crafted a false representation of my position.

I won't!
Originally Posted by TheRoad
But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM.

Do you understand that this is not true for everybody?
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by writer1
EE, so you are saying that Plan B has to be mutually agreed upon by both spouses using the POJA. Site me an example of where Dr. Harley says this.

If the couple were able to work together using MB principles, including the POJA, then there likely wouldn't be any need for Plan B. Plan B is usually used when one person in the M refuses to follow MB principles, refuses to POJA, refuses to meet their spouse's EN's (generally, it's used when said spouse refuses to end their A after the BS does a Plan A).

So, how can a couple POJA a Plan B, or a separation, or a divorce if one person in the M refuses to utilize MB principles? And if it cannot be POJA'd, is the other spouse then expected to simply accept the fact that they have to spend the rest of their lives with someone who refuses to meet their needs?

I have NEVER seen Dr. H advocate such a thing.

How does the BH get to get what the OM got? The BH feels he will have to accept he came in second place to the OM.

I understand a BH feeling second best for awhile around D-day...but prolonged feelings of being "second place to OM" are an issue the BH needs to address privately. This is an insecurity issue and not really a marital issue. Plus...it will be/would be very difficult for such insecure man to recover his marriage as WOMEN are attracted to and fall in love with men that demonstrate strength, security and stability. Such insecurities about sex, if harped on...will make the BH appear weak and undesirable making it LESS likely they will ever get the sex or enthusiasm they desire.

My recommendation to any BH having these feelings...

Fake security
Fake strength
Fake stability

Until you make it....

We are what we THINK.
We are what we BELIEVE

YOU ARE A GOD IN BED (your fww just doesn't know it yet...but YOU better believe it and act like it and sooner than you think...she'll agree)

We recommend waywards fake it till they make it all the time...why not betrayed's too.

Mr. Wondering
After reading what ThRoad posted a few frames ago, I think I have a better understanding. And I don't think the answer is good.

There is nothing a WW can ever do to erase an affair. there is nothing I could ever do for my DH to "even the score" or make up for what I did. I can repent, I can end things and be honest and protect the M. But I can never ever do anything super enough to wipe it away or pay for it. It wasn't a fender bender where I can replace his bumper and the car is just like new. It's not like I stole a pair of tennis shoes and can pay for them or return them.

So no, me being the best wife I can be until death do us part isn't special - it's what I always promised to do.

The only solution is to figure out how to live with that. I can do what I am supposed to do for the rest of my life, which includes not living in continual paralysis.

DH can:

1. Divorce me, which would be his right

2. Separate but never divorce

3. Stay with me but brood for the rest of his life

4. Stay with me but make sure I never forget what I did to us so that he always has the upper hand

5. Stay with me, choose forgiveness, choose love, knowing that even though the choice I made 4 1/2 years will never go away, we can have a wonderful M from this day forward

My DH chose number 5. Some men choose number 1. I can understand those. But after awhile, those men who choose 3 or 4 are just being cruel and bitter. And cruel and bitter people are not capable of listening or seeing any point of view other than their own.

I am convinced that no matter what I say or how I say it.....there will still be a "but". And I have already mea culpa'ed enough. I will not do it anymore. I am not longer wayward.
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by TheRoad
But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM.

Do you understand that this is not true for everybody?

I think we do.

Do you understand that it's not UNTRUE for everybody as well?

There are some very legitimate scenarios that have been cited here. Yet there is very little validation of those scenarios.

As I've suggested, if the WW was not enthusiastic about sex with her BH before the affair, and the tapes produced by the PI show her in a "very enthusiastic state" with the OM, the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH.

Folks have tried to derail the discussion with all sorts of one-off outlier exception cases. But what if the BH has a legitimate gripe, if the WW is steadfast in her refusal, then what?

Divorce?
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
As a writer, you should know that it is "cite" not "site."

I would love to pretend as though I have nothing better to do than sit around all day and argue semantics with narrow-minded people, but alas, that is not the case. You are free to continue this debate on your own if you would like, but I am going to follow Lurioosi's lead and bow out so that I can dedicate my precious time to something that matters a bit more to me than your childish attacks.

Maybe I'll take up underwater basket weaving. That seems far more productive than this.


Before you go back to your baskets can you go through the individual points and questions that I made and please respond.

W1, we have agreed and disagreed since you came here to MB.

I have never been mad at you. Do not hate you because you were a WW that iced the cake with an OC. Stuff happens. I do feel for you because you had a BH that was not stepping up to the plate. Sad to hear the court trouble you had with your son. You have more then your share off problems. Yet you work to keep life turned around.

Iļæ½m arguing issues with you not at you.

Cite site. I learned something new today.

When I raise specific issues or ask specific questions general responses without addressing those issues/questions do not help me to see their point or change mine.
Let's get back to Marriage Building and stop with the disrespectful posts! If the discussion can't be kept respectful and productive, we will lock this thread.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by TheRoad
But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM.

Do you understand that this is not true for everybody?

I think we do.

Do you understand that it's not UNTRUE for everybody as well?

There are some very legitimate scenarios that have been cited here. Yet there is very little validation of those scenarios.

As I've suggested, if the WW was not enthusiastic about sex with her BH before the affair, and the tapes produced by the PI show her in a "very enthusiastic state" with the OM, the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH.

Folks have tried to derail the discussion with all sorts of one-off outlier exception cases. But what if the BH has a legitimate gripe, if the WW is steadfast in her refusal, then what?

Divorce?

Yes, divorce. Hasn't that been said about 80 times? Why is that answer not sufficient?

If your wife is wayward and unwilling to meet your needs the way you want, divorce.

I don't understand why the discussion is still going on. Are you under the impression that there's some magic way to force a wife to give her husband what he wants? If you can't come to grips with the fact that you don't always get what you want or expect out of life, this may not be the place for you.
Answered here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2433765#Post2433765

I hate to use psychobabble, but all of these questions are coming from a position of "enmeshment" with the wayward wife. You cannot control what she does under any circumstances. There is no foolproof way to get what you want. So, if it's not enough for you, don't stay in the marriage. You don't have to.

Any of you guys ever read "boundaries"?
And answered here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436835#Post2436835

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2436033#Post2436033

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435777#Post2435777

Are you hoping that if you keep asking someone will give a different answer?
I've been reading along ...

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by TheRoad
"The whole point of the thread is to remind people BOTH the BS and the WS that you help each other by POJA'ing EVERYTHING in the marriage including sex."

Where is the POJA where the WW flat out refuses to give the BH what the OM got?

Again, you have been on MB for 3 years. You should know the answer. You tell us.


hurray @ Mel
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
...

the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH.

Women don't "negotiate" great sex.

I've never POJA'ed what my wife and I do in the bedroom.

Get her drunk and seduce her. (I joke but I hope you see my point)


You aren't likely to achieve "the sex om got" by talking about. Instead...you take your wife out dancing and as appropriate, when the mood is right...you whisper in her ear what YOU want to do to her and with her. The "sex" becomes a product of YOUR prowess and not a degrading reclamation of something you perceive OM "achieved" with your wife (or her body). You don't treat your wife as a piece of meat upon which you get to have YOUR TURN at some specific portion of or action.

Create your own sexual union and history. Become more experimental YOURSELF.

Stop trying to ride OM's coat-tails.

Sure...maybe you LEARNED a thing or two about what your wife is capable of or willing to do....so get her to do those things FOR YOU because she wants to, not because you negotiated it or demanded it.

Mr. Wondering
You do know I'm divorced from my WW, right? I know all to well the futility of negotiating with someone stuck in a wayward mindset.
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
...

the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH.

Women don't "negotiate" great sex.

I've never POJA'ed what my wife and I do in the bedroom.

Get her drunk and seduce her. (I joke but I hope you see my point)


You aren't likely to achieve "the sex om got" by talking about. Instead...you take your wife out dancing and as appropriate, when the mood is right...you whisper in her ear what YOU want to do to her and with her. The "sex" becomes a product of YOUR prowess and not a degrading reclamation of something you perceive OM "achieved" with your wife (or her body). You don't treat your wife as a piece of meat upon which you get to have YOUR TURN at some specific portion of or action.

Create your own sexual union and history. Become more experimental YOURSELF.

Stop trying to ride OM's coat-tails.

Sure...maybe you LEARNED a thing or two about what your wife is capable of or willing to do....so get her to do those things FOR YOU because she wants to, not because you negotiated it or demanded it.

Mr. Wondering

I guess I always saw a wife as a partner, not a conquest.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I guess I always saw a wife as a partner, not a conquest.


Exactly
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I guess I always saw a wife as a partner, not a conquest.


Exactly


My "partner" enjoys being persued.
Being seduced.
Being desired.

It meets her need for admiration AND sf.

Requesting or negotiating what OM got...not so much.

Mr. Wondering
Question for all...

It has been argued that a BS has a right to divorce or not at the time of the adultery.

Is it moral to try and work the MB plans which may give the FWS the impression that they are making progress in the M THEN to divorce them because they have not moved past their former withdrawal from the BS and providing the BS with a loving M?

I, myself, would have a very hard time doing the MB plans and not having a W that would escape her former withdrawal to become a warm, enthusiatic, loving partner that DID THE SAME THING FOR ME AS I WAS DOING FOR HER...

forgiving her...

which means there was no yesterday.

Some FWS's of both genders will protect themselves emotionally by simply EXISTING in the M and NEVER allowing themselves to become part of the NEW marriage that does not include the affair.

They just want to have their M and their BS in it and the kids and the financial security and the whatever they would lose IF they divorce BUT they do not want to COMMIT TO THE NEW MARRIAGE they just don't want to divorce.

They wind up waiting YEARS to have the a new M and don't seem to understand that there is a way to tell if they will be successful.

Refusal to agree to work the MB plans including the POJA of ALL problems in the M is a serious reason to consider ending the M or face a lifetime of disappointment.

Jim

Sorry for the t/j ing of the last couple days, Jim.

Quote
Is it moral to try and work the MB plans which may give the FWS the impression that they are making progress in the M THEN to divorce them because they have not moved past their former withdrawal from the BS and providing the BS with a loving M?

It is always moral to try and work the MB plans but it is not immoral to divorce them if the BS is not compensated with a loving M. I have no desire to be in a marriage at all costs and seriously wonder why anyone would...that sounds like he//.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Sorry for the t/j ing of the last couple days, Jim.

Quote
Is it moral to try and work the MB plans which may give the FWS the impression that they are making progress in the M THEN to divorce them because they have not moved past their former withdrawal from the BS and providing the BS with a loving M?

It is always moral to try and work the MB plans but it is not immoral to divorce them if the BS is not compensated with a loving M. I have no desire to be in a marriage at all costs and seriously wonder why anyone would...that sounds like he//.

Hello black raven!

Really good to see you. I always look forward to reading your posts. smile

I guess in thinking back to the early days of our recovery, if things had not progressed the way they did or Mrs.Flint had continued to refuse to work the MB plans with me I PROBABLY would have continued to try for a while longer even without her participation...

Which led to me asking myself HOW was I supposed to know whether to KEEP trying or KNOW that I didn't have anything to work with.

I'm sure Mrs.Flint pre-recovery would have told me:

Well, what's so wrong with us NOW?

I mean, the A was SO LONG AGO.

What do you mean, you want a divorce NOW?

If I had known that REFUSING the MB plans including POJA and the meeting of EN's signaled a VERY dismal prognosis I feel I would have been able to work the plans even BETTER knowing that there was a finite point of either RECOVERY or DIVORCE.

Thanks for backing me up. cool

Jim

Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by TheRoad
But it still does not make up for a WW refusing to give her BH the SF she gave the OM.

Do you understand that this is not true for everybody?

I think we do.

Do you understand that it's not UNTRUE for everybody as well?

There are some very legitimate scenarios that have been cited here. Yet there is very little validation of those scenarios.

As I've suggested, if the WW was not enthusiastic about sex with her BH before the affair, and the tapes produced by the PI show her in a "very enthusiastic state" with the OM, the BH has a legitimate complaint if the WW refuses to negotiate for a means to reach the same or even better, a higher level of enthusiasm expressed for the BH.

Folks have tried to derail the discussion with all sorts of one-off outlier exception cases. But what if the BH has a legitimate gripe, if the WW is steadfast in her refusal, then what?

Divorce?

Yes, divorce. Hasn't that been said about 80 times? Why is that answer not sufficient?

If your wife is wayward and unwilling to meet your needs the way you want, divorce.

I don't understand why the discussion is still going on. Are you under the impression that there's some magic way to force a wife to give her husband what he wants? If you can't come to grips with the fact that you don't always get what you want or expect out of life, this may not be the place for you.

Itļæ½s just not the BH has to accept that his WW gets away with not giving her BH what she gave the OM. Itļæ½s that there is no real way for the WW to justify not to do so when we are expecting anything that way out.

For those that are saying this must apply to me it does not.

Itļæ½s about the BH that even if the marriage had problems he was happy enough to not have an affair and didnļæ½t want a divorce. This is why so many marriages do not end in a divorce after an affair, and why the BH fights so hard to save his marriage.

Itļæ½s one thing for a WW to have a PA. OC optional bonus.
Then commendable for the WW to do the whole NC, transparent, honest with question, etc.
So a BH will accept these efforts and work towards recovery. He feels the affair is dead, WW made herself so I can verify NC is in place. He gets to keep his family intact.

Thatļæ½s why when the WW does these things the BH accepts the OC price because heļæ½s getting to keep the marriage/family he wanted intact.

Though when a WW has not met the BHļæ½s needs for SF variety and frequency pre affair claiming that she was not that into it.

Then the WW did every SF thing the BH always wanted with the OM. How is the BH to go back and believe and accept that itļæ½s not her thing?

How is the WW to convince her BH?

What if the BH reads Mr Wļæ½s book ļæ½How To Put Your Wife in the Moodļæ½ and his wife still says I donļæ½t like those things?
Is it fair that WW gave the OM SF to keep him around during the PA. Then using the knowledge that her BH doesn't want to leave but stay married, so the WW can refuse to roll out the Red Carpet SF treatment for her BH because she has her BH over a barrel, between a rock and a hard place, up manure creek without a paddle, left out to hang, twist in the wind?
TheRoad, for the sake of argument let's say a BH has followed MB and the (F?)WW still chooses not to engage in ALL aspects of the marriage...what choice does the BH have when we all know that you can't control another person? No one is arguing fairness. That went out the window even before Dday.

Originally Posted by TheRoad
Is it fair that WW gave the OM SF to keep him around during the PA. Then using the knowledge that her BH doesn't want to leave but stay married, so the WW can refuse to roll out the Red Carpet SF treatment for her BH because she has her BH over a barrel, between a rock and a hard place, up manure creek without a paddle, left out to hang, twist in the wind?
faint

Okay, let's give this one more try. The WW didn't give OM SF just to keep him around. She did it because he was meeting her EN's, which caused her to fall in love with him.

In order for the M to R, the BH and the WW need to find a way to meet each other's top EN's so that they can have a loving, mutually satisfying relationship. In all likelihood, if the BH is willing to meet his WW's EN's, then she will be in love with him and will want to meet his EN's as well, because she wants him to be happy. And vice versa.

This isn't about a specific sex act. This is about creating an environment in the M where both partners feel safe and loved and appreciated. This is accomplished by the meeting of EN's, avoiding LB's, spending 15+ hours of UA time together each week, and using the POJA to solve whatever problems arise.

I don't really know how else to say it. This has been said at least several dozen times on this thread alone, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in for certain people.
Well, TheRoad, it's hard to deal in hypothetical situations, imo, however, I will do what I can to answer your question, but like Mel, I'm pretty shocked that you don't know the answer after being here for as long as you have been. [As an aside, I'd be very interested in reading YOUR story - ONLY BECAUSE, I'm not getting that you are in a recovered marriage from reading your posts - and if you are a BH, then that makes me sad for you - I'd like to see you have a thriving marriage, maybe we can help you?]

Mr. W's posts on this thread have been AWESOME, I realize that I am biased, but really he IS handing you the "playbook" so to speak...Now, I am not a FWW that did what you are suggesting: "gave OM something BH never got/gets", but that didn't mean that there still weren't obstacles to overcome - yes, the enthusiasm had to return to our bedroom - I believe that is true for all waywards that had a PA - But how? I want you to really think this through - Can you imagine taking your wife to dinner and saying, "Honey, what would it take to make you enthusiastic about giving me oral tonight?" and having her respond with with instant sexual arousal? C'MON - Surely, you see the ridiculousness of that - Do you think that is how OM did it? That is NOT the art of seduction...Which is what Mr. W has advised...

TheRoad, the answer that you are looking for and SHOULD know is that when someone is in romantic love with you they will pretty much do ANYTHING you desire - outside of total depravity - Now, that does not mean that just being in romantic love with you is an automatic "panty-dropper", NO, there STILL must be the seduction - And really, it's the same for men on a different level - I certainly don't imagine that just because Mr. W is romantically in love with me that I can "get him there" just by looking at him, kwim? Look as much as I hate talking about the goings on in an affair, so many times I read here "Well the WW just GAVE it to OM" - Um, not exactly - as much as it pains me to describe, OM was "workin' it" - OMs call constantly - OMs text constantly - OMs flatter endlessly - OMs do a bang up job of meeting the 4 intimate ENS~~~> intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionship and YES, after that stuff, sexual fulfillment - They are pushing the "romantic love buttons" left and right - and I KNOW it's disgusting that the WW allowed them to do that - I get it, IT'S MORE THAN SICK...but it's FACT...

So, how does the BH "get" what OM "got"??? Can you answer that for me now, TheRoad?

Mrs. W
Originally Posted by black_raven
TheRoad, for the sake of argument let's say a BH has followed MB and the (F?)WW still chooses not to engage in ALL aspects of the marriage...what choice does the BH have when we all know that you can't control another person? No one is arguing fairness. That went out the window even before Dday.

In this case, it seems likely that the M will end in D. If both parties do not dedicate themselves to recovering the M, then it probably won't work.
Originally Posted by writer1
In this case, it seems likely that the M will end in D. If both parties do not dedicate themselves to recovering the M, then it probably won't work.

I think this is the rock and the hard place that Road is talking about. If I interpret him correctly, the BH has two choices:

1. Accept what scraps and leftovers of SF the FWW is willing to dole out, or
2. Divorce, become a weekend dad and live in a cardboard box because you don't have enough to live on between alimony and CS.

I keep thinking about Krazy71.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Is it fair that WW gave the OM SF to keep him around during the PA. Then using the knowledge that her BH doesn't want to leave but stay married, so the WW can refuse to roll out the Red Carpet SF treatment for her BH because she has her BH over a barrel, between a rock and a hard place, up manure creek without a paddle, left out to hang, twist in the wind?
faint

Okay, let's give this one more try. The WW didn't give OM SF just to keep him around. She did it because he was meeting her EN's, which caused her to fall in love with him.

In order for the M to R, the BH and the WW need to find a way to meet each other's top EN's so that they can have a loving, mutually satisfying relationship. In all likelihood, if the BH is willing to meet his WW's EN's, then she will be in love with him and will want to meet his EN's as well, because she wants him to be happy. And vice versa.
Yet what I've seen from WW's is that they largely refuse to allow their BH's to meet their needs. Once they've walked, how does one meet the needs of someone who has locked the vault door on the love bank?

So while I don't argue with the theory, the practice is impossible as long as the WW keeps the vault locked. Nothing gets in.
Originally Posted by writer1
This isn't about a specific sex act. This is about creating an environment in the M where both partners feel safe and loved and appreciated. This is accomplished by the meeting of EN's, avoiding LB's, spending 15+ hours of UA time together each week, and using the POJA to solve whatever problems arise.
Same comment, how does this happen if the WW has locked the door, won't return, doesn't think the affair was wrong, or worse, thinks it was a good thing, etc?
Originally Posted by writer1
I don't really know how else to say it. This has been said at least several dozen times on this thread alone, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in for certain people.

Oh, it's understood.

I'm not sure you are understanding the frustration of hearing it was just that simple, and if you would do (or would have done) these things you'll get your needs met in your marriage.

Most times, it doesn't seem to matter how well you meet the needs for the WW, they remain WW, or file for divorce, or just walk away.

No offense to those who are here who did turn around. But if you look around you, you are not the typical outcome.

It's great that your marriages are restored or are in the process of being restored. But I don't think you understand how rare your circumstance is.
Mrs W, what ended your affair?

Was it something Mr W did, or did the OM end it?

Were you open to Mr W meeting your EN's while you were fully into your affair?
EE...

Now you are back to the same argument you always make - When I address falling romantically in love with each other, I do so from a standpoint that both parties are WILLING participants - You dealt with a WW that was NOT a willing participant - and that sucks, and I am truly sorry...I believe that you are a very good man that was dealt a very rotten hand - EE, I believe you did all you could to bring your WW back -- she had other plans -- you can't be "blamed" for that -- it was not your fault -- My hope is that you can let it go, and enjoy the marriage that you have now - I think that's what you are doing, right?

Mrs. W
Originally Posted by bitbucket
2. Divorce, become a weekend dad and live in a cardboard box because you don't have enough to live on between alimony and CS.

Why the assumption that the BH lives in a box and has two nickels left? The finances will surely change but it doesn't have to be THAT dire. It depends on what is more important to a BS. Is the continued lifestyle worth the unhappy marriage?

Originally Posted by TheRoad
Is it fair that WW gave the OM SF to keep him around during the PA. Then using the knowledge that her BH doesn't want to leave but stay married, so the WW can refuse to roll out the Red Carpet SF treatment for her BH because she has her BH over a barrel, between a rock and a hard place, up manure creek without a paddle, left out to hang, twist in the wind?

Again, you have been here long enough to know this answer, TheRoad. Instead of spending your time asking the same question over and over and over again - ignoring every answer - why not use that energy to educate yourself on Marriage Builders? Board members should not have to answer these questions for someone who is simply too lazy to even do the very basic reading. Truly, there is no excuse for being this ignorant 3 years out.
Originally Posted by bitbucket
Originally Posted by writer1
In this case, it seems likely that the M will end in D. If both parties do not dedicate themselves to recovering the M, then it probably won't work.

I think this is the rock and the hard place that Road is talking about. If I interpret him correctly, the BH has two choices:

1. Accept what scraps and leftovers of SF the FWW is willing to dole out, or
2. Divorce, become a weekend dad and live in a cardboard box because you don't have enough to live on between alimony and CS.

I keep thinking about Krazy71.

I think there is a #3...

Confront the WS with the POSSIBILITY of divorce if they refuse to work the Plans...

which is what leads to plan B.

Most WS REALLY don't want to divorce or they would be gone instead of trying to hide the affair from being discovered.

They are cake eaters.

When confronted with DIVORCE they usually will PROTEST it vehemently BUT not accept the divorce.

THAT is what I presented to Mrs.Flint...

and I meant it.

Work the plans or we're done.

Not a threat...

the real deal.

Plans or divorce.

Jim

Originally Posted by MrsWondering
EE...

Now you are back to the same argument you always make - When I address falling romantically in love with each other, I do so from a standpoint that both parties are WILLING participants - You dealt with a WW that was NOT a willing participant - and that sucks, and I am truly sorry...I believe that you are a very good man that was dealt a very rotten hand - EE, I believe you did all you could to bring your WW back -- she had other plans -- you can't be "blamed" for that -- it was not your fault -- My hope is that you can let it go, and enjoy the marriage that you have now - I think that's what you are doing, right?

Mrs. W

So what made you end your affair? Did your husband win you away from the OM, or did the OM dump you? Or did some other fact end the affair giving your husband a chance to romance you back to the marriage.

In other words, what made it possible for your husband to deposit love units in your love bank, when others have worked the same plans and were unable to make such deposits with their WW's?

Perhaps by telling us what he did differently, others can enjoy the success he enjoyed.
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Mrs W, what ended your affair?

Was it something Mr W did, or did the OM end it?

Were you open to Mr W meeting your EN's while you were fully into your affair?

Exposure to my mom ended my affair - I exposed myself to her - she was beyond LIVID - she called Mr. W and they plotted and planned what to do - Ultimately, my mom [who had known OM - and his parents - since his childhood] called him and made VERY REAL THREATS that she was prepared to act on - OM lived[s?] in my home state, which is where my mom lives - So OM KNEW that my mom meant what she said - he would have doubted the words of Mr. W who was so far away -- OM ended the affair the day after my mom's phone call - WITHOUT telling me why - which was a condition that my mom laid out for him...He briefly did try to give me a hint in an email - My mom called him and turned the screws - He knocked it off, double-time...I did not know why he ended it for about a year and a half after the fact - and that was a GREAT thing...

Of course, I wasn't willing to have Mr. W meet my needs during the affair - That did NOT stop Mr. W though - he's kind of an "evil genius" grin - Mr. W both met my needs AND attacked OMs inability to meet certain needs WITHOUT looking like he was doing so - He planted info with ME that he KNEW I would take back to OM - things about finances - a place where Mr. W knew OM was VERY, VERY insecure...

But yes, eventually I did have to become willing to have my needs met - and willing to meet Mr. W's needs...EE it takes TWO WILLING PARTICIPANTS...

Mrs. W
EE, there are no guarantees that the affair will end - that the WW will return to the marriage...I think that is where you get stuck -- Exposure and my mom's threats certainly didn't have to work - that could have backfired, it didn't -- I don't know why the facts in our situation unfolded as they did -- Dumb Luck? Blessings? I don't know why, I only know that I am forever grateful..."There but for the grace of God go I", I often think when I read the stories here of waywards that continue to be wayward...

Mrs. W
EE -

I feel a profound sense of hurt and anger coming from your posts, as if you are trying to sort out what happened in your situation? It's a feeling that I'm all too familiar with myself. Are you searching for answers to feel assurance that your new relationship is better protected? Or something else?

What's bothering you emotionally?

Heck yes I'm angry. I get bombarded with how women are victims and men are not doing enough, and if only...

It's time for that sort of sorry thinking to end.

I guess I'm just sick and tired of all the misplaced blame.

I'm worn out.

I'm not saying folks don't have legitimate complaints. I guess I'm angry over the injustice of it all.

It's that sort of anger you feel when you see a child being abused by his parents. It's not a bad anger. I believe it's a very healthy anger. It's that anger you get when you look around and everyone is blaming the child for the abuse and you wonder why no one can see how destructive the parent is acting.

My analogy probably sucks, but if you've ever been angry over some sort of injustice, such as seeing a child abused or over you mother or sister being raped, then you know what I'm talking about.
To look at it from another perspective, I have read more that one BW here show great emotional upset when they investigate/discover some details of the affair.

One woman in particular, read love letters her husband wrote to OW, and found evidence of multiple deliveries of flowers to OW.

You could tell from her post it hurt her like he((. Especially since she had not gotten roses in years, even at the birth of their children, which she chalked up to family finances, little did she know- but he had never written her a love letter, ever. She did not even know her husband could write in such a way.

She wanted those things the OW got.

I do not think it is about sex, flowers or love letters. BS always question the motives, themselves and relationship dynamics constantly. They try to rationalize, even things out, but there is no real even compensation for an A.

The dynamic of jealousy, fairness, equal, and compensation is one the BS spouse must come to terms with alone. These really are things the WS can provide.

It can never be erased, "made up for" or balanced out. Not in any situation I have seen. JMHO

It is about understanding what you need, what your partner needs and deciding if you want the relationship enough to address those needs (did not say "give in", either)


Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I guess I'm angry over the injustice of it all.

Hi EE,

You are exactly right about the injustice of it all.

With the creation of NO FAULT DIVORCE it opened the floodgates for both genders to abuse their spouses without consequences.

Marriage is now the only contract I know of that now punishes the victim rather than the one violating the contract.

If ANYONE wants to end the M for whatever reason they have the right to do so...however they do not have the right to violate the contract and possibly kill their spouse with one of numerous STD's AND be rewarded for it.

Just a reminder that it has not always been this way, that only in the last forty to fifty years, the ME age has it been this way.

Prior to the ME generation, of which I am one, marital misconduct resulted in forfeiture of the majority of the estate, the children and some years back...your life.

While I don't agree with stoning...at least not now grin...I DO think that until we go back to laws that do not reward marital misconduct on both genders part we will continue to have no end to the tragedy of adultery.

Jim


It's really amazing how your perspective changes once you are out of your marriage for awhile...in my case, about a year and a half. When you are trying to recover your marriage, you can get so mired in infidelity that you can't see the forest for the trees. I can't believe I spent so much time and energy thinking about it. There's isn't a woman on Earth worth expending that sort of emotional energy for, especially one who threw you out with the garbage. Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

Regarding the original post: There is no "fantasy". The WS may not have been as in love with OP as they thought, because it was more "lust" or "infatuation", but whatever feelings they had were and are every bit as real as any feelings they've ever had for you, or anyone else. That's something you should deal with, rather than using the Boogeyman Tactic and telling yourself it wasn't real because you don't like it.

As far as the financial impact of divorce: It can be profound. I have 3 kids and my ex doesn't work. She gets 40% of my net pay, and I'm lower-middle class. I've never been one day late or one dollar short. I'm stuck in a decent 2 bedroom apartment for now, and I drive a car with 80,000 miles on it. Guess what? It's worth every penny and then some. My kids have adjusted very well, I have them half the time, I'm still able to meet women, and the ones who are worth a flip understand my predicament. It won't be this way forever. Eventually my ex will have to work because 40% of my salary isn't really enough to live on, and at that point I will have that 40% reduced dramatically.

One of my favorite sayings is "Divorce is a bargain at any price". I wouldn't let financial implications factor into my decision to stay or leave at all.

Divorce isn't half the monster infidelity is.
This is not an excuse for and affair but I thought I would offer somewhat of an explanation from the perspective of a WS.

I am different than the OP in that there is nothing I did with the OM that I haven't or wouldn't do with my H

However, there are things that I just didn't enjoy anymore with my H that I did with the OM and here is why.

PreA, my H would comment negatively about things I did wrong during sex. He would sometimes roll over in a huff if I didn't do it right.

Other non sexual times, he would make derogetory comment about a woman's size or smell. Even though they weren't directed at me, I was concerned that he was thinking that when we were intimate.

My OM was nothing but flattering. He hadn't had sex in a long time (or so he said) and was just happy to be doing anything. He didn't do anything better than my H, he just had me believing that I was the end all and be all of his fantasies. In reality I know that couldn't have been the case and of course if I lived with him, I would surely notice his disdain for others and apply them to myself just as I had with my H.

The difference is in my fantasy world, the OM made it all about me. By demanding various sex acts the OP's H is making it all about him.

Only the OP knows for sure why she refuses to participate in specific acts...if they are truly vile to her or if is some sort of passive aggressiveness toward her H.

All I know is the way I was able to be open sexually with my OM was more about me than him. Even now it is hard for me to imagine that my H is enjoying sex with me knowing what he has said and done in the past....he doesn't do it anymore so I am hopeful.

We all do things we are ashamed of at one point or another...to ask someone to repeat that to show their love isn't really loving.
Asking a WS to repeat sex acts they performed with OP isn't loving, you are correct...but it's not nearly as bad as betrayal, either.

You were able to perform them with OP for a cheap thrill. If you are unwilling to perform them with your BS to help his/her emotional state, then you just don't care that much. It's still more about what you want than helping your spouse. What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Regarding the original post: There is no "fantasy". The WS may not have been as in love with OP as they thought, because it was more "lust" or "infatuation", but whatever feelings they had were and are every bit as real as any feelings they've ever had for you, or anyone else. That's something you should deal with, rather than using the Boogeyman Tactic and telling yourself it wasn't real because you don't like it.

I think the fantasy deal is an oft misunderstood one - Krazy, you are correct, that the feelings themselves in an affair are absolutely REAL - However, those feelings do not exist in a real life setting - I liken it to shows like The Bachelor/Bachelorette - They take those people and provide them with a total fantasy world - they are living in mansions that they are not paying for - driving fancy Italian sports cars that they are also not paying for - being styled by stylists in clothes they aren't paying for - eating gourmet meals that they neither cooked or paid for - traveling to tropical paradises, again, gratis - Everyone is putting their best foot forward and so on - Who couldn't have a whirlwind romance in that type of setting? And that is the point [or should be] when anyone makes the "fantasy argument"...

I'm glad to hear that you are doing well, Krazy. I'm glad that for you, divorce was the definition of success and personal recovery. I'm also glad that for us, it was not.

Mrs. W
Hey Krazyman! Did someone call you? Or did I speak your name and you appeared?

I'm glad you got what you paid for smile
Mrs W why did you tell your mom?

How did she threaten the OM to go NC?
Your are right not nearly as bad as a betrayal.

I think if I were in the position of the OP, I would perform whatever was necessary.

I also think I would potentially resent it and subsequently be repulsed by my DH.

I sort of know of what I speak. Thankfully none of this has come up AFTER my affair...but it did before.

I did things I am ashamed of with my H. Because I wanted to make him happy. Because I had no boundaries.

I just don't want to see the same thing happen to the OP out of guilt or whatever.
Originally Posted by Krazy71
What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.

Well the problem there is that eventually the woman would develop a sexual aversion, and for sure then the man's needs wouldn't be getting met...That is not the solution, Krazy...That plan will not create romantic love and will not restore the marriage...Scream and yell "unfair" and "unjust" all you like, but those are the facts.

Mrs. W
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Asking a WS to repeat sex acts they performed with OP isn't loving, you are correct...but it's not nearly as bad as betrayal, either.

You were able to perform them with OP for a cheap thrill. If you are unwilling to perform them with your BS to help his/her emotional state, then you just don't care that much. It's still more about what you want than helping your spouse. What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.

You are aware that the poster who originally started this entire argument was being asked to participate in a threesome with her BH right? Apparently, she did that with the OM so now her H expected her to do it with him. IMO, a threesome constitutes adultery, since it invites a 3rd party into the marriage. How could more adultery be the solution to healing from an A?
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
I think the fantasy deal is an oft misunderstood one - Krazy, you are correct, that the feelings themselves in an affair are absolutely REAL - However, those feelings do not exist in a real life setting

If it wasn't a real life setting, then why call it betrayal? Why does this website even exist?

Of course the setting was real. The hotel room OM had sex with my ex in was real. So was the desk, the floor, and my couch. Just because they don't end up eloping to Vegas doesn't mean it wasn't a real life setting. They had sex like monkeys in one real life setting, then went home to their spouses in a different setting.

There are many self-deceiving tricks a BS can use in an attempt to soften the blow of betrayal. I'm just not the type who can deceive myself like that.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Asking a WS to repeat sex acts they performed with OP isn't loving, you are correct...but it's not nearly as bad as betrayal, either.

You were able to perform them with OP for a cheap thrill. If you are unwilling to perform them with your BS to help his/her emotional state, then you just don't care that much. It's still more about what you want than helping your spouse. What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.

You are aware that the poster who originally started this entire argument was being asked to participate in a threesome with her BH right? Apparently, she did that with the OM so now her H expected her to do it with him. IMO, a threesome constitutes adultery, since it invites a 3rd party into the marriage. How could more adultery be the solution to healing from an A?

No, I didn't realize that, and that does change things.

What the BH should do is divorce her asap. There are words to describe a woman like that, but I won't bother posting them here. Those types never change, either.

Hi writer smile

Just for the sake of accuracy I don't believe anyone on this thread has asked for a threesome. It would be just as much adultery as any other act involving a third party. It probably isn't a valid argument to accuse those that aren't of doing so.

Thanks.

Jim
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by Krazy71
What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.

Well the problem there is that eventually the woman would develop a sexual aversion, and for sure then the man's needs wouldn't be getting met...That is not the solution, Krazy...That plan will not create romantic love and will not restore the marriage...Scream and yell "unfair" and "unjust" all you like, but those are the facts.

Mrs. W

Hmmm...and the WS should be grateful that the BS is even willing to touch him or her. Talk about an aversion.
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Mrs W why did you tell your mom?

How did she threaten the OM to go NC?

My mom and I are very close - we talk daily - Naturally during the affair I pulled away from her - that is a common thing for a wayward to do - pull away from all the good and right things in their lives - My mom was BUGGING the pea soup outta me asking "What's wrong?"...Finally, I was sick of hearing the question and I blurted out what was going on - and that was all she wrote - My mom was HORRIFIED and beyond PISSED...There was no putting the "genie back in the bottle"...

OM was in financial dire straits due to his divorce [which was final BEFORE he contacted me]...ANYWAY, my mom's threats were regarding telling OM's parents - showing up on their doorstep and telling them - He was living with his parents at the time - He KNEW, as did my mom, since she knew his parents, that they would kick him out for what he was doing - Also she might have "implied", HEAVILY, that Mr. W's family was part of the "Greek Mafia"! grin [They are NOT!] Bottom line - she scared OM silly - and really, we got lucky, because threats are most definitely a BAD IDEA - OM just knew that my mom was 100% willing to carry out her "threats" - he realized they weren't really threats, but rather, PROMISES...

Mrs. W
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
I think the fantasy deal is an oft misunderstood one - Krazy, you are correct, that the feelings themselves in an affair are absolutely REAL - However, those feelings do not exist in a real life setting

If it wasn't a real life setting, then why call it betrayal? Why does this website even exist?

Of course the setting was real. The hotel room OM had sex with my ex in was real. So was the desk, the floor, and my couch. Just because they don't end up eloping to Vegas doesn't mean it wasn't a real life setting. They had sex like monkeys in one real life setting, then went home to their spouses in a different setting.

There are many self-deceiving tricks a BS can use in an attempt to soften the blow of betrayal. I'm just not the type who can deceive myself like that.

You are missing what I mean - Not "real" in the sense that there are no mortgages between affair partners - no morning breath - no vomiting and diarrhea viruses - no screaming children - no REAL LIFE bad stuff - It's all everyone smells great and is putting on a show...IT IS NOT THE SAME AS REAL LIFE - It does NOT have the same everyday problems that marriages have - It's like a teenage relationship - Someone else is footing the bill - both emotionally and financially - It SUCKS - It's HORRIBLY WRONG...We all get that - but for sure it's a fantasy life - waywards run from real life - waywards are escapists...

Mrs. W
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by Krazy71
What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.

Well the problem there is that eventually the woman would develop a sexual aversion, and for sure then the man's needs wouldn't be getting met...That is not the solution, Krazy...That plan will not create romantic love and will not restore the marriage...Scream and yell "unfair" and "unjust" all you like, but those are the facts.

Mrs. W

Hmmm...and the WS should be grateful that the BS is even willing to touch him or her. Talk about an aversion.

Who said the WS isn't grateful? Who says the WS doesn't become a FWS and completely get how lucky and blessed they are?

Mrs. W
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

My point wasn't that a WS intentionally deceives their BS into thinking they've changed. They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

Luri~

It doesn't matter what anyone here believes to be true about you or other FWSs - As long as you and your DH know what's real and true, well, that's all that matters - hug

Mrs. W
Quote
They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.

I guess you can check with my DH in 20 years or so to see if I became a sl*t again.

I used to have this recurring dream right after I got married and got away from my mom (who I love but who is always right and has selective hearing). I would be trying to explain something to her and she just kept talking without hearing anything I said. it didn't matter what I said, she just ignored it all and kept thinking what she thought. I would end up crying and screaming and hitting the pillow and DH would have to wake me up.

That's how this thread makes me feel. And I am still trying to explain, and just like Mom in the dream, it isn't going to help.
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

loori...

If you wish to remain here and not drive yourself batty at some point you have to distance yourself from the notion that they are talking about you.

Betrayed Spouses have a process they go through too....and it often takes them in and out of this anger stage...where they over generalize and underempathize with those anonymous individuals on the internet. Sometimes it's not just a stage but righteous anger that expresses itself, appropriately or not (which can often just be a couple of word choices away from each other) whenever betrayed perceive/witness a wrong having to do with this very sensitive and deeply personal issue.

Toughening up your skin is good practice for the next mistake we are all (betrayeds and waywards) bound to make...given time.

My wife and I remain thankful you are here.

Mr. Wondering
I usually have pretty thick skin. But I also made a promise to DH that I would either stop doing "personal" forum topics altogether or have the good judgment to step away when I am headed for danger. he told me if I couldn't protect myself then he would step in a protect me. I haven't done a very good job of keeping my promise the past couple of days, and I don't want him playing hero smile so I need to exercise my grown up judgment here.
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

My point wasn't that a WS intentionally deceives their BS into thinking they've changed. They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.

This could be applied to almost any mistake then. If we buy into the fact that no one who ever makes a mistake can change, so they should never be trusted again, then we would never trust anyone with anything, because everyone makes mistakes.
Originally Posted by Jim_Flint
Hi writer smile

Just for the sake of accuracy I don't believe anyone on this thread has asked for a threesome. It would be just as much adultery as any other act involving a third party. It probably isn't a valid argument to accuse those that aren't of doing so.

Thanks.

Jim

Sorry, I was referring to Ookfish's thread, which no, is not the topic of this thread, though her situation has been mentioned here a few times.
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

My point wasn't that a WS intentionally deceives their BS into thinking they've changed. They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.

I can't control my wife and I'm not a fortune teller.

But I think my wife and family are well worth the risk.

I ALSO KNOW...

that I have changed...so the premise that change isn't possible doesn't resonate with me (which is fortunate because, statistically, it's the betrayed spouse that is the most likely to cheat the next time).


Mr. W
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.

And this is what I was talking about earlier. When we are discussing from the viewpoint that waywards don't change, and if they do they still aren't worth it.....than why even discuss?

I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

My point wasn't that a WS intentionally deceives their BS into thinking they've changed. They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.

This could be applied to almost any mistake then. If we buy into the fact that no one who ever makes a mistake can change, so they should never be trusted again, then we would never trust anyone with anything, because everyone makes mistakes.

I can't think of too many mistakes I've literally vowed not to make.
Originally Posted by Krazy71
What you should do, if you really care, is suck it up and take one for the team...or in this case, your marriage.

If your wife does this, she'll lose a little bit of love. Eventually, there won't be any left, and there won't be a marriage, either.

That's certainly anybody's choice if they want it.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Mrs W why did you tell your mom?

How did she threaten the OM to go NC?


Quid pro quo...

Why are you at marriage builders???

Can you give us just a little bit of your story so we can get some idea of where you are coming from???

All I've seen is that your wife apparently cheated on you many years ago and it creeps up into your consciousness from time to time and your wife punishes you if you ever bring it up (but you seem to be carrying around some deep resentments which should be addressed but we can't help you address what you won't acknowledge)

Married nearly 30 years, right???

Mr. Wondering
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by writer1
[quote=Krazy71][quote=lurioosi2]
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.
[/quote

My point wasn't that a WS intentionally deceives their BS into thinking they've changed. They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.

This could be applied to almost any mistake then. If we buy into the fact that no one who ever makes a mistake can change, so they should never be trusted again, then we would never trust anyone with anything, because everyone makes mistakes.

I can't think of too many mistakes I've literally vowed not to make.

I'm not an expert on this, but in the realms of Christianity, there is only one unforgivable sin, and Adultery isn't it. Therefore, an adulterer is capable of repentance and can change and be forgiven. Every BS may not chose to offer that forgiveness, but some certainly do, and I don't think it's good to tell those BS who chose this road of forgiveness and recovering their marriages is not worth the risk. It may not have been worth it to you, but it is very much worth it to some.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by writer1
[quote=Krazy71][quote=lurioosi2]
Quote
Also remember that most people do not fundamentally change in adulthood. Sure, they may straighten their act out for months or even years, but is that person really worth the gamble? Can you not do better? You must realize that you deserve better than that, and you CAN do better than that.
[/quote

My point wasn't that a WS intentionally deceives their BS into thinking they've changed. They probably honestly believe they have...but what about a year from now? 10 years from now? The bottom line is that history tends to repeat itself at some point, and believing a WS has changed is akin to believing a wife-abuser has changed. It's generally not worth the risk.

This could be applied to almost any mistake then. If we buy into the fact that no one who ever makes a mistake can change, so they should never be trusted again, then we would never trust anyone with anything, because everyone makes mistakes.

I can't think of too many mistakes I've literally vowed not to make.

I'm not an expert on this, but in the realms of Christianity, there is only one unforgivable sin, and Adultery isn't it. Therefore, an adulterer is capable of repentance and can change and be forgiven. Every BS may not chose to offer that forgiveness, but some certainly do, and I don't think it's good to tell those BS who chose this road of forgiveness and recovering their marriages is not worth the risk. It may not have been worth it to you, but it is very much worth it to some.

Hi writer,

I agree with you and I (and Mrs.Flint) are among those who considered each other and our M worth it. In the beginning she was not on board but when faced with the only choices of do the plans or divorce she reluctantly started doing them. As we progressed she saw the value to HERSELF in doing them and THEN to the M. For that we are blessed. Thank you.

Jim
I think this is what was different. No offense to MrWondering, he's probably a great guy. I doubt he's a better guy than me, except maybe in choosing who would end up being his WW.

(There's probably no way to clean that up, it's going to offend someone. I'd like to invoke SouthPark status where everyone expects to be offended and just deals with it, LOL)

In my case, and I suspect more cases than not, the WW's parents are not horrified by their daughter's affair, but support it, either tacitly by saying they won't get involved, or actively such as in my case, having the married OM in their home as a guest for the holidays, knowing their daughter is married.

What I want any BH to know out of all of this is that it's more likely external factors that will provide an opportunity for success than anything else.

If the affair doesn't blow up, or the families of the affair partners keep it on some sort of life support, then it will likely live a long time.

In my case, the affair was a long distance relationship. So in addition to the "support" provided by my XWW's family, they didn't spend a lot of time together, so there were few chances for them to LB one another.

Since the family "approved" since she closed the love bank to me, and since he had little chance to LB given he saw her one day a week, the affair flourished long after she got the divorce she wanted.

Not even exposure is a sure fire route as I did a pretty thorough exposure and folks simply didn't care enough to take any sort of stand against the affair.

Like I said, folks standing around watching abuse happen and not caring enough to even say anything, let alone take action.

Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Mrs W why did you tell your mom?

How did she threaten the OM to go NC?

My mom and I are very close - we talk daily - Naturally during the affair I pulled away from her - that is a common thing for a wayward to do - pull away from all the good and right things in their lives - My mom was BUGGING the pea soup outta me asking "What's wrong?"...Finally, I was sick of hearing the question and I blurted out what was going on - and that was all she wrote - My mom was HORRIFIED and beyond PISSED...There was no putting the "genie back in the bottle"...

OM was in financial dire straits due to his divorce [which was final BEFORE he contacted me]...ANYWAY, my mom's threats were regarding telling OM's parents - showing up on their doorstep and telling them - He was living with his parents at the time - He KNEW, as did my mom, since she knew his parents, that they would kick him out for what he was doing - Also she might have "implied", HEAVILY, that Mr. W's family was part of the "Greek Mafia"! grin [They are NOT!] Bottom line - she scared OM silly - and really, we got lucky, because threats are most definitely a BAD IDEA - OM just knew that my mom was 100% willing to carry out her "threats" - he realized they weren't really threats, but rather, PROMISES...

Mrs. W
Heck, not even my mother cared. Early in XWW's affair I was trying to talk to my mother about it and instead of listening to me, she wanted me to fix her printer 800+ miles away.

I never spoke with my mom about it again after that little show of concern, LOL.
Thats shocking Enlightened, I am really surprise to hear that. Although we have to remember that in todays society affairs seem to be rife, I think some people look at those who have affairs as they are not getting what they need from a M. I am not saying this is right, far from it, it just seems to be a common view.

It was only when I came here, I realised what a terrible thing I did.

In my view, you should give your partner the opportunity to meet those ENS and only once you have filed for D and moved on should you consider another partner.

Ofcourse, I learnt the hard way, and am actually really bloody annoyed at myself as I always had this approach to relationships.
I guess there's just no way to know what works, and the same thing won't work in every case.

My mother didn't say a word when my H exposed my A to her. I talked to the OM on the phone at her house and she never said a thing.

My A was also long distance (really long, like 3000 miles), so except for the 3 times we were together on campus, it was entirely conducted over the internet and phone. No much chance for LB's there either.

What brought me around was my H's unwavering decision to see this through and fight for our M. He never backed down. He never gave up. He ignored all the crap I was spewing about how I didn't love him anymore and we didn't have anything in common and the OM was my soul mate, and he just loved me. He did his best to meet my EN's even when I wouldn't let him. He found sneaky ways to get it in there regardless. And eventually, his devotion to our marriage and his unwillingness to give up broke through the fog and I started to see a little light shining through. It took a long time, but it did happen. If he had given up sooner, we probably wouldn't be here today. I will always be grateful for his love and his patience.
I think you are right, EE - Mr. W and I are both VERY GRATEFUL that I have the mom that I do...I did have an excellent moral upbringing - Unfortunately, all that was taught to me did NOT sink in until much, much later - Only after the affair did I truly understand what my mom had meant every time she preached "Mrs. W, times may change, but morals never do" as I was growing up - I rolled my eyes at her for years about that, until I really, really understood what she meant...I am thankful the penny finally dropped - Til this day, a full five years later, I still thank Mr. W and my mom for all that they did for me back then - I still tell them how sorry I am that I put them in that position...I do not deserve the grace and mercy that I have been shown, but I will NEVER EVER stop being grateful for it, and doing all that I can [actions and words] to show it...

Mrs. W

P.S. EE, I'm sure you are a wonderful man - just like Mr. W - I have never doubted that, btw. Course you have been kinda "snarky" today! [Can't get mad at me for saying that either - Southpark Rule, yanno!stickout]
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I need to go home and kiss my DH, who apparently an even rarer gem than I thought.

Rare indeed.... But by being willing and able to take responsibility for your adultery and then change, YOU are a rare breed of FWW yourself! smile
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I used to have this recurring dream right after I got married and got away from my mom (who I love but who is always right and has selective hearing). I would be trying to explain something to her and she just kept talking without hearing anything I said. it didn't matter what I said, she just ignored it all and kept thinking what she thought. I would end up crying and screaming and hitting the pillow and DH would have to wake me up.

That's how this thread makes me feel. And I am still trying to explain, and just like Mom in the dream, it isn't going to help.

Don't let it bother you - it's just the internet, and some people think it's SERIOUS BIZNESS. (Including me, from time to time, sigh)

That is, unless you have inner insecurities about wavering in your newfound commitment. Could that explain your emotional reaction to this thread? Not accusing, just wondering.
Can I barf at any kumbaya moments?

**invoking South Park Rule #23**
Originally Posted by Krazy71
I can't think of too many mistakes I've literally vowed not to make.

THIS. Quoted for truth. That is the problem with infidelity. I was raised to honor the most sacred of vows. So was my XWW. The problem is, I DID honor them, even in the face of temptation. She did not.
It's hard to believe that someone can be trusted once they've committed the "Ultimate Sin" in marriage. And few CAN BE. It's wonderful to see some of the FWS's on here who seem genuine - but much like an addict, they have to be "in recovery" for life, with EPs in place. I see a lot of FWS's with pride seeping in, and particularly BHs on here who describe their alleged "Former" WWs who are not on board with recovery as they should be. My heart bleeds for those BSs, who are SO GOOD and so FORGIVING that they are walking towards another disaster....
Hi Krazy! smile
Originally Posted by Arpeggi
Originally Posted by Krazy71
I can't think of too many mistakes I've literally vowed not to make.

THIS. Quoted for truth. That is the problem with infidelity. I was raised to honor the most sacred of vows. So was my XWW. The problem is, I DID honor them, even in the face of temptation. She did not.
It's hard to believe that someone can be trusted once they've committed the "Ultimate Sin" in marriage. And few CAN BE. It's wonderful to see some of the FWS's on here who seem genuine - but much like an addict, they have to be "in recovery" for life, with EPs in place. I see a lot of FWS's with pride seeping in, and particularly BHs on here who describe their alleged "Former" WWs who are not on board with recovery as they should be. My heart bleeds for those BSs, who are SO GOOD and so FORGIVING that they are walking towards another disaster....


Will never be there again.

I'm the one of those pain-in-the-behind people who hardly apologizes. Forgiveness can be held much in the same vein from my point of view.

If you have to apologize for it, don't do it. When I do apologize for something, it isn't for the action or intent, it is because I did so in an improper manner.

Will I forgive my FWW for falling into an A? Hmmmm. Yes. What I will not forgive is every step in which she failed to prevent it from happening. Recurrences of those actions are from this day forward, deal-breakers. Not. going. to. do. it.

I may love her unconditionally, but I'm am with her on several conditions.

This thread has become a distraction to the forum. Let's get back to marriage building!

This thread is locked.
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