I discovered this site a few days ago and have been reading feverishly ever since. I�ve already learned such a great deal, and I know I still have so much more to learn. But right now, I�m so lost and scared, and I don�t know what to do. I need advice from anyone here willing to listen and offer me your time. NOTE: My spouse and I are not married, never have been, but we�ve been together for 10.5 years. For the sake of this forum, consider our relationship as a marriage in every way except for the �piece of paper�; I hope you�re still willing to help.

Here�s the cut-to-the-chase question: How does a �wayward spouse� navigate the situation when she�s realized she�s made the biggest mistake of her life and wants nothing more than to reconcile, but her spouse has told her he�s open to considering reconciliation in the future, just not right now?

He says he needs time and space because he�s angry. I get that, but I have already moved out of the house and he is closing on refinancing the house on Monday to get my name off the mortgage. Discovery day was September 3rd, I moved out a month later; I moved out because I thought I was dead-set on trying to make a future with the OM but later realized how incredibly wrong I was. The affair was officially over November 1. My spouse doesn't know that it's permanently over yet; he just knows the OM and I were having trouble and not talking. I told my spouse I wanted to consider reconciliation a few weeks after I moved out but hadn't permanently ended the affair at that point. He was responsive to considering it, but "just not right now". Well, I don�t want to sign the quit-deed or refinance (and told him so), but he�s not backing down on that and still sticks to his �we�ll see what happens in the future, but right now we�re moving forward with the house� stance.

Every day we spend apart and every move we make feels only like we�re setting ourselves up for a harder reconciliation. How do I try to convince him to seek couple�s therapy with me sooner vs. later without pushing him away or waiting too long? How long of a wait is too long??? We both admit we still love each other and we feel like we've both lost our best friend, so I know there's still hope for us getting back together. But I�m just so terrified of smothering him right now and I can�t stand this �in limbo� feeling, you know?

I have put together a letter that I�m considering giving him letting him know how I feel, as well as letting him know the affair is over. I would be willing to post it here for comments if anyone is willing to offer guidance.... I�m undecided on giving it to him now, waiting until later after the house closing (so he doesn�t think I�m pushing to get him to back out of the closing again) or just not send it at all. I�m so lost and confused, and I'm at the stage where I don't feel like I have the strength to make the right decisions....

I have so many more details that I�m willing to share (especially if you have questions), and perhaps I will in another post. But for now, I would just like to have any recommendations on whether I should keep trying to �profess my love and regrets� or just sit back and wait for him to come around?

I can't thank you enough in advance for your support!!

First as a FWW you need to understand the pain and anguish you have caused him, and he's not just going to let you come walking back into his life knowing that.

Think of it like this...dating is like an interview and the interview is to be your "wife" and you just failed that interview, so why should he give you another chance?

It does take time in your situation for him to actually want to reconcile, you might actually have to let him take your name off the mortgage, he is only doing that to protect him, and can you blame him?

Writing a letter and telling him how you feel will just make things worse, all you said were lies, and rewriting history during your affair, so anything you write he will not believe.

He does not trust you, yes he might love you but the trust is totally gone and you need to accept the consequences I love this quote my MIL told me when I apologized to her what I had done to her son "You may always choose your actions and choices, but you can NEVER choose the consequences of those choices"

What I would do is go to him (please no letter) and say "I know I screwed up BIG TIME and you do not want to reconcile right now, but I just want you to know that I will do anything to get us back" then your ACTIONS will let him see that you are being serious.

But you can not push him into reconciling when he is not ready. You need to give him space, if you want to send him hear you can, but again if he ends up not wanting you back ever then you need to live with that and realize that was what you were giving up when you were in bed with another man.

Redwood17,

I tend to view any committed relationship as a sacred trust, although I could be in the minority on this site.

I Would suggest you look for BH threads on this site to help understand how your boyfriend feels and what is going through his mind.

Have you answered ALL of his questions.

Are you hiding other affairs he does not know about or financial lies?

Do you have children together?

Generally it takes a minimum of 2 years for recovery under the best of circumstances.

God Bless
Gamma

redwood,

Post the letter. I will give you some tips on what would be good to say.

My guess is that your live-in is saying "not right now" because he has a girlfriend on the side. Sorry to say that, but you need to give it some consideration. You left, and I'm here to say he figured he would date.

Thank you for the advice and perspective, SapphireReturns. Since I'm having trouble seeing straight right now, your guidance on not sending the letter is well taken. I feel he needs to know the affair is over, and that I'm committed to trying anything in the world to bring us back together, but I was having doubts that I needed to send it in a letter. I just get so emotional every time we talk in person, I thought the idea of letting him hear how I felt without watching me ball my eyes out at the ame time would be a more comfortable scenario for us both . But I will let the letter sit for now....and perhaps I'll see him this weekend to tell him in person. As much as it hurts, I'll end up signing the quit-deed (don't really have a choice and yes, can I blame him?). And I will try my hardest to give him the time he needs....

BTW, your MIL quote sounds exactly like what my MIL would say

Gamma,

I'm such a newbie, I don't know how to quote specific pieces of your post, so I will answer your questions/comments below.

He doesn't have a lot of questions right now. Such a stoic man, I'm not surprised, really. But when/if he has them, I'm an open book.

First affair and no financial messiness. Our finances were always kept separate and it worked out beautifully. Much easier in my eyes...

No children, but....don't laugh....we have 5 cats that are like our children. They ended up being split up when I moved out. I have been granted full visitation rights for the 3 he kept.

Recovery lasting a minimum of 2 years.... I'm willing to endure that challenge if he's willing to even try. That's all I want...just for him to try.

Thank you for posting~

schoolbus,

You're right, it's entirely possible that he'll date. In fact, after I asked him one time if he was veiwing this as a separation or really "the end", and his reply was "I don't know, it depends on my mood", I asked him that exact question. He admitted he probably would date, but nothing serious and not for a while. I have to struggle with the reality that I can't fight that with him; it's completely his choice to do as he pleases right now. And as much as seeing him date would crush me, if it would in someway let him recover and even possibly recognize/remember the good that we had, then I'll cross that bridge when/if we get there.

I don't, however, think he has a girlfriend on the side. Stranger things have happened, but I just don't have that suspicion right now.

As for the letter, I think I'm going to hold off on sending it, and thus on posting it (at least for now). Suffice it to say, it's up one side and down the other about how I realize now the 'fog" I was in, how incredibly remorseful and truly sorry I am for hurting him, how I understand now what I should have done to avoid the affair, how I want more than anything to try counceling and reconciliation, and how very, very much I love him. It's a long one, trust me....

RW

He doesn't have a lot of questions right now. Such a stoic man, I'm not surprised, really. But when/if he has them, I'm an open book.

Whatever you do, do NOT TRICKLE TRUTH HIM, that is where you tell him one week we only had sex one time, and the next month you tell him it was 25 times. Each time he discovers another lie you go back to square 1 and have to start over again.

Do a search on this site for "Trickle truth"

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks for the advice, Gamma. Will do. I have LOTS of reading to do and tons of learning.... and this is just the beginning.

How old are you and partner?

gg615- I'm 34 and he's 39. This is the most significant (and longest) relationship either of us have been in, neither have ever been married/divorced.

Given the scant amount of information contained in her posts, i have to ask what would make you conclude that the betrayed boyfriend is also cheating?

Now imagine him seeing someone "while" you were together, you can understand how much pain he was in when you did this.

The best thing you can do now is start setting up your own boundaries so this will never happen again, read everything, read the books, who knows maybe he would want to reconcile SOMEDAY and when he's ready you'll be ready as well.

Redwood,

Welcome to MB. YOu said more than a few things I feel the need to address. Harley has a book and perhaps an article on this site about "buyers" and "renters" I would really encourage you to find the book or the articles if they exist on this site. I have been here so long that I haven't kept up on the newest articles here. One of the things that you said bothers me on several levels. You said

Yes I and others are willing to help. However, when someone says that marriage is "just a piece of paper" I don't hold out much hope for the relationship. Here is why. I have been married a long time and everyone I know that has been married a long time understands something you don't.

The understand that marriage takes commitment to your spouse (I am sure you know this). But, marriage takes commitment to your vows/morals/honesty for the vows you take (you have not taken them are really to ones self because who is going to enforce them. You did not enforce your commitment to your BF and therefore you cheated. He could not of avoided your decisions, but you could have made a different decision.

Finally, for a successful marriage one needs to be as committed to the concept/vows of marriage as one is to the spouse. Because there will be times when wonders about the spouse or your own commitment and what gets you through is your commitment to the marriage itself, not just the spouse.

You refer to your BF as your spouse. You refer to yourself as his W and yet neither of you were willing to commit. Doesn't this say something? I think it does. If you want this relationship to continue you need to really rethink what commitment means and what you expect from someone who says they are committed to you.

I strongly urge you to read the articles on this site. But I also strongly urge you to read a book by Cloud and Townsend called Boundaries. It will help you see how to develop and protect your boundaries. But, before you do that you need to develop some and those boundaries should reflect who you really are and what you hold important in your life.

Now let's talk about your BF and what is going on with him. First, he has no basis to believe a word you say about OM. Second within the last two months you were "dead-set on trying to make a future with the OM". Now, you are not. Before the A you were "dead-set" on making a future with your BF, and then you were not. Are you seeing why your words won't hold much water right now?

This does not mean you don't have a chance, but before you do, you need to really sit down and think about yourself (strengths and weaknesses), your relationship (strengths, weaknesses, and what makes a good relationship in your mind), and your BF (strengths and weaknesses and why you would want to commit to him).

In short you start with assessing yourself and your life. It does no good to beat yourself up right now. It won't help you at all. It will do you a lot of good to figure out what you really want in your future, who you want in your future, and why. You need to discover the concept of boundaries and decide what boundaries are important to you. And you need to read about love busters, needs, and Harley's polices of joint agreement and radical honesty.

You have a lot of work to do, but the hardest will be to really assess yourself and your situation.

Ask lots of questions, and be ready for some 2x4's you will get some upside the head for sure. People are not going to be attacking you, but they will for sure attack your thinking and perspectives on certain things. Pay attention and figure out why they are doing that.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

american jin


"need time and space"

"moving forward"

"not right now"


Codewords of the wayward.

I cannot help you, because I will not participate in the "piece of paper" pretense that you subscribe to.

My 29 year old piece of paper feels very much dismissed by your comment.

I do, however, wish you well.

Adieu.

Redwood.

This is what Pepper, JL and others are referring to in regards to your statement of "just a piece of paper."

Living Together Before Marriage
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025_qa.html


Living Together Before Marriage
Letter #2
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025b_qa.html

Marriage IS a big deal. I encourage you to read these articles FIRST. You NEED to do this because you first need to know what you want.

85% of marriages in which the partners cohabitate prior to marriage end in divorce. There is a reason. Read those articles.

Then ask yourself, "We didnt even get to the getting married part... what do I really want?"

You posted

This is an example of "Renters Thinking" mentioned in those articles. I truly hope this helps and that you and your BSO (Betrayed Significant Other) can grow from this in some manner.

The reasons stated by Pep and others regarding the "piece of paper" comment are also why I would suspect the BSO has been dating.

He has not been "cheating".

That would not be possible. The female SO in this case moved out.

In the case of living together, that would signal the END of the relationship. She left, took on another Live-In Significant Other.

In this type of living arrangement, this is essentially (in the mind of a renter), divorce, then remarriage????? I would suppose, only without the "pieces of paper" that would go along with it. Right?

So, this essentially sets the first BSO free. Why not date? Why not go out, have a few friends? There is NOTHING TO PREVENT IT. The moment she left

he was a free man.


There was no marriage.
There was nothing to stop him.



And now, he says, he is "moving forward", "needs space", and wants to wait and see.


Sounds like he has something on his mind. Like.....dating.


As rough as this might sound, I can't help but wonder. The sad truth is that in a living-together arrangement, when it blows up


it is simply


over.

Marriage takes a lot longer to dissolve, which affords people a chance to FIX IT.

That's the difference, at least one of them, between a commitment, and "just living together". That "piece of paper" actually does perform a purpose. More than one, in fact.


SB

^

I'm guilty of the "piece of paper" attitude at one time.

So, what has that "piece of paper" done?

Joint health insurance. Joint credit. Entwined social security. Joint property ownership. A shared last name.

10 years?

Let me tell you that after 10 years with that "piece of paper" it would have taken much more time to untangle and move on from than if we had never married.

So, here's a plan for you;

Kick him out, keep him out. Tell him that if he wants to get you back, he must court you all over again. Tell him if he wants to be with you, he cannot live with you or sleep with you again until you feel he is commited to you, and will demostrate his commitment and patience through a time frame that you decide, and after that time frame is passed, if he expects to live with you or have sex with you, he must marry you.

Want to win him back? How about you make yourself worth a little more, and give him something to work for?

I personally take offense when people talk about "the piece of paper" as if it means NOTHING. Well, to me IT MEANS A LOT.

It ISN'T "JUST A PIECE OF PAPER." Someone who is married and believes that should look more closely at THEMSELVES.

Marriage is a HUGE commitment. It is something to be held SACRED.

I have told my WH before that had he "cheated" on me prior to marriage, and prior to children, which were born well AFTER the POP(HA) I would have left an NEVER looked back. Only BECAUSE of that POP am I even thinking about recovering, if given the chance.

Guess this should have gone on the rants thread instead.

Um, yeah, I've gotta go with Pep on this - for someone to go to a MARRIAGE builders website and dismiss marriage as equating to a piece of paper is, oh, how to say this: stupid.

On to the next MARRIED poster. Or unmarried one who realizes that they're on a MARRIAGE BUILDING WEBSITE. Oy vey.

I'm curious: for the sake of OTHER forums, how do you consider your relationship?

Oh my god you guys. Not everyone can just SHOW UP as ENLIGHTENED as you all.

This is still a person in a painful situation asking for help. If you don't have help, what is gained by jumping all over her?

Sheesh.

Redwood, I hope my post didn't get missed. I don't agree with your 'piece of paper' stance but I am trying to help... please read those linked QnA articles.

It will explain why all these people are so upset.

Redwood,

Are you out there? What are you thinking?

JL

Redwood, update please?

Thinking about you...

A few of you have asked if I�m still here.... yes, I am. I fully confess that when the 2x4�s started flying regarding the marriage issue, I ducked my head, cowered and hid. It doesn�t mean, however, that I don�t appreciate the points of view of those of you who took the time to post your feelings and opinions. Yes, I should have recognized the potential to get smacked for the POP comment; but I honestly didn�t mean to offend anyone by that comment, I really didn�t. Marriage has always been a point of contention for my boyfriend and I. Honestly, the lack of marriage is a key ingredient as to why my affair happened. I have so much to work through on the issue of marriage and true commitment, and although I�m scared, I think there are many wonderful people here who have much to offer in helping me work through those issues, not just my affair situation.

Perhaps I need to lay my cards out on the table here regarding my history and viewpoints on marriage? Or maybe it needs to be a separate thread, I�m not sure. Suffice it to say, I DO believe in marriage; I�m sorry for my lack of compassion and making it seem as though I don�t.

To those I offended, I apologize. I accept your choice to turn away from offering me your wisdom, but for those of you willing to continue to listen, thank you. Thank you.

So, I�ve been reading and reading and reading, and thinking and thinking and thinking and I still have so very far to go. I have been reading many wonderful and heartbreaking threads on this site, and have felt myself in so many of your shoes, at least in one way or another. While all of our situations are slightly different (some markedly so), I feel very thankful having found this site.

An update on where I am and what�s been happening: I signed the quit-deed a week ago and it was an indescribable pain. I am suffering through the consequences of my poor choices, and I recognize that losing the house and my boyfriend and my cats and that whole life are the results of those poor choices. I recognize that my boundaries were (ok, I admit, still are) ill-defined. I need to do some serious work here.... Sigh. JL-- I will look into the book you mentioned. Thank you.

I have had a couple of conversations with my boyfriend since I last posted-- some good, some not so good, all of them a learning step in this whole process. I am trying to give him the space and time he is asking of me (I am letting him contact me when he needs/wants to), but at the same time, I am continuing to be honest with him about where I�m at and what I�m feeling. He knows that the affair is over and that NC has been established with the OM; he knows that I am laying myself out on the table for him and willing to do whatever it takes to work through this; he knows I am willing to wait for him until he�s ready; he�s angry and confused as to how I could go from stating that the OM is planning to move here to be with me (no, the OM didn�t live in our town) to wanting nothing more than to salvage my relationship with my boyfriend. I understand this, I really do. I mean, afterall, it�s only been 2 � months since all of this hit the fan. BF has no reason to believe me or trust that my change of heart is sincere. I understand that, too. But my feelings are still where they were when I first posted (as well as where they were when my �fog� lifted about a month ago): I am committed to trying to reconcile with my BF and build a stronger relationship. And other than work on myself in the mean time, I am continuing to reaffirm this with my BF unconditionally (hopefully w/o smothering him......).

This has all been such a wake-up call....such a learning experience....and at such a HUGE expense, I know. No matter what ends up happening, whether he ever forgives me or not, I know I will be a better person because I�ve been forced to learn some things about myself, and what I want from a spouse, and what can happen when boundaries are ill-defined. And I�m encouraged (though admittedly overwhelmed, too....) because I know that there�s so much more to learn. What a long road this is going to be....

Again, my apologies to those I offended. And my gratitude to those who are willing to stick this out with me.

These are words from a remorseful wayward spouse.



I am so happy that you have found this site too, you are doing exactly what you should be doing, just remember that actions speaks louder than words and I believe that your BF will notice and see the difference in you. I think you have a chance on getting him back yes it will take time but if you are willing and patient then god will bless you with the thing you want most (your boyfriend, cats, and house back)

I will post more later, but only got this far because if your initial premise is wrong, then what follows will be wrong too. If you are not married, you did not have an affair. If you are not married, you are free agent and are free to date.

But I said this just this morning to another poster who is shacking up: "They insist that we treat their "relationship" the same as a marriage, after they have just dismissed marriage as nothing more than a piece of paper out of the other side of their mouth."

Marriage is very different from shacking up. Like night and day.

I can�t offer you any advice, not any that you should follow anyway. And I didn�t come here to bash you.
As a former betrayed husband I would just like some insight into what the cause of the waywardness (is that a real word?) is/was.
Why did you feel led to go astray and what caused you to realize that you made a mistake? Did you suddenly realize that you loved your BF a lot more than you originally thought? Was OM abusive towards you? Was it not quite the fantasy you thought it would be? What changed your mind so quickly? Obviously you thought OM could meet some need that BF didn�t.
I�m just looking for some bits and pieces of information to help me with my own experience. I mean no offense towards you.

Redwood,

Let me offer you some advice. Would you do me a favor and read Harleys four rules for a good marriage? Then would you read about love busters? And then read about needs and realize that Harley came to understand that often well meaning people tried to meet their spouses needs, but failed because they either didn't know their needs or tried to meet them as they would like them rather than how the spouse meets them.

I have a reason for this and it is simple...YOU ARE VERY CONFUSED ABOUT MANY THINGS.

We need to sort that out first. You are paying a huge penalty for having a relationship with a man other than your BF and yet other than honor and breaking your word there was/is no reason to pay that penalty. As Mel and others have said you are not married. You are not married for many possible reasons but it will boil down to one or the other or both of you did not want to commit.

My W had this discussion with our daughter who said "**** is single again, she broke up with her boyfriend." My W pointed out there really are only five (maybe six) legal states of being:

1. You are single.
2. You are married
3. You are divorced.
4. Your spouse is deceased.
5. You are deceased.

Some folks would say there is another you are engaged. But, engagment to me is a tryout period where there is commitment to commit IF things work out: ie: we are going to try to see one person. But, if that is too much the engagement is off.

My point is you need to learn why you put yourself in the position you did. Why you made the choices you did. And What it would take to be actually married and commited in a marriage, hence the reading I am suggesting.

We clearly are not trying to save your marriage. We are trying to help you understand relationships and how to make them work, and then grow them into something you can commit to. That something is called marriage.

Does this make sense to you? I hope so.

Does this sound like it will meet your needs to address why you chose to be with another man rather than your BF? Does this sound like it will meet your needs to understanding marriage and what it should be should you get to that point with your BF or any other man?

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

It's going to be a hard road, but thanks for the encouragement, SapphireReturns. Much to learn here....

Cheers~

MelodyLane,
Point well taken. You and JustLearning below hit on some very valid, very similar points. I am certainly confused about marriage, commitment, relationships, etc. I mean, it hit me today like a ton of bricks that not only is this man I love not my spouse, he's not even my boyfriend right now! Pretty hard accepting the simple fact that I need to start calling it like it is: he's my ex-boyfriend. Geez, talk about having trouble accepting things...just typing the word "ex" hurts. Sigh.

Timetofly,

No offense taken. Wow, these are some great questions. While I can't say my answers will provide any insight for you, I'll offer my story, such as it is....


Why I feel I went astray...there are so many things I could list, but what I think it boils down to is that I was ignorant to what it takes to make a relationship work, plain and simple. But everything that that entails is anything but plain and simple. Where to start? I had no idea what boundaries were; I had no clue how to communicate my problems or my emotional needs with my BF; I was afraid to ruin what we DID have, even though I wanted more; he wasn't willing to offer me more; I was insecure; I allowed myself to feel vulnerable.....I could go on and on, but no matter how many reasons I could list on why I felt led astray, none of them are an excuse for what I did. There is no excuse.


I'm not sure exactly. I know that I realized about a week after I moved out that the grief of losing a 10.5 year realationship finally started to hit me. It was overwhelming. But the grief I started feeling never subsided and eventually it just got worse and worse. I began to wonder if it wasn't grief but something more. I guess you could say the fog was starting to lift. Whatever was happening...whatever I was feeling...I just knew that it was drastically different than I was previously thinking and even different than how I thought I would feel once I moved out. I'm so thankful I started a journal when I first started feeling a connection to the OM, because looking back at earlier entries has been sooooo incredibly eye-opening. I don't even recognize myself, but I can certainly see the moments when I started realizing the extent of what I had done.


Anything but. Well, at least not how I think you mean. He was at my feet--flowers, poems, songs, gifts.... Charm out the yingyang. But it wasn't until I read an article HERE on MB about how/why affairs start, did I realize how incredibly foolish I was to believe in it all. Now, was feeding me all those lies and charm abusive? Well....


Entirely not the fantasy I thought it would be. But not because of anything OM was/wasn't doing, but because of me. He was offering me every fantasy I wanted; the problem was that I found myself not wanting to buy into it. I didn't love him, though I certainly felt like I did at the time. What changed my mind so quickly was literally reading that article here on MB that talks about how and why affairs start. I was absolutely floored that everything that I thought was so special, so unique to us, so precious and fateful, so "soulmates", so "no one in the world gets this but us".... was so incredibly text book. Embaressing, really. And it's been hard not to beat myslef up too bad about this ignorance. Again, I have such a long road ahead of me in this journey.....

Please excuse the interuption.

I am reading a lot of "I" statements. R17, do you understand your boyfriends perspective on this?

ONE month ago... no only a few weeks ago - his world changed. You moved out.
You are going to have to look at this situation from his point of view. We have quite a few dude posters here who can fill you in.
And a significant ammount of lady posters, too.

JustLearning,

I'm trying to read all I can and have already read some of the things you mentioned, but I'm still learning and have much left to read.

Here's the super-short background on the marriage issue: as a child, I wanted to grow up, get a job, get married, have kids...everything that I thought I was supossed to want. Then in my early 20's, I learned about all of the affairs my Dad had when he and my Mom were married (I was actually on the phone with my Mom when she discovered it by opening a letter in the mail from one of my Dad's OW), and was so heartbroken I think I swore off men and marriage for about a year. Met my BF shortly after that time and though I was leery, we started dating. Neither of us were interested in marriage and both felt disenheartened by watching the sad state of many marriages around us. So we just decided to enjoy each other and take it day by day.

Then, I'm not sure when it really happened, but about 2 years into our relationship (we had moved in together after the 1st year), my feelings on marriage started to waiver; I told my BF that I thought I really did want to be married someday... that I never really stopped believing in marriage but felt confused by what I thought it meant. His feelings on marriage had not changed and he suddenly felt concerned that it was going to be a breaking point for us since we didn't see eye to eye about it anymore. His compromise? "Let's buy a house!" Yes, I took what he was willing to offer me at that time because I loved him and didn't want to lose him, so we bought a house together. But each year, each holiday, each special occassion...I waited for him to pop open a ring box and offer me marriage. But it never came. I didn't know how to stand up for myself and communicate my needs (I still don't...remember, I'm still a newbie ....), and I didn't want to push because I thought he would leave me. So, while I occasionally mentioned it to him, I let the years pass with us just enjoying the moment. And I DID enjoy them. Incredibly so. Eventually, as I started to lose hope in him ever coming around to the idea of marriage, I also started to really "enjoy the moment". I basically quit thinking about marriage and just let myself love this man and the life we created.

And there's where I think it happened. There's where my guard fell. While I thought I was finally seeing eye to eye with my BF again and cool again with the idea of not needing to get married, I think I let myself down by simply lying to myself. I never got the true commitment I wanted from my BF and so I felt rejected and vulnerable. And it all caught up with me one day when all the other ingredients for an affair were in place. I think I simply gave up. At least, that's it feels like right now.

You said I am confused....yes, you are so very right. You said we aren't trying to save a marriage here... again, you're right. But if I can learn about myself through this process and really hash all of this out, maybe one day I'll understand. I can only hope. Because right now, I am simply hurting. Hurting for the losses my poor choices created, hurting for the pain I caused the man I love more than anything in this world, hurting for recognizing that I don't think I ever really recognized myself. And I just want the hurting to stop. I want to heal and I want grow.... and I want recovery.

Ok. That's all the brain power I have to offer right now. I feel like I've been babbling all night and disoriented, but thanks for letting me share, regardless. Baby steps...

Night~

Redwood, the biggest favor you can do for yourself is to get the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders by Dr Harley. It explains the dynamics of living together versus marriage. It was a big eye opener to me. Living together is always a very tenuous, month to month agreement until something better comes along.

But more than that, this book will explain in clear psychological terms the dynamics of a great marriage. You dismissed marriages based on BAD marriages. It is interesting you didn't look to a GOOD marriage, instead, to see how they did it because if you were worried about infidelity the greatest protection against that would be a GREAT marriage.

If your goal is to have a great relationship that is free of infidelity, the solution is a great marriage. Not living together. Living together situations are fraught with domestic violence and cheating.

Go get that book, please, and flip back to the chapter about "the curse of living together before marriage." It explains what happens when you live together, but is followed with a chapter on how to become a BUYER. It opened my eyes tremendously and I predict it will yours too.

Buyers, Renters
& Freeloaders

Thanks MelodyLane. Just bought that book, as well as Surviving an Affair, Love Busters, and His Needs/Her Needs. Looks like I'm going to be busy for a while.... When and if my BF determines if he wants to give us another try, maybe I'll be ready....

Cheers~

Redwood,

Let's be clear about something. I am not posting to you in order for you to save your relationship.

You are grieving the loss of this relationship and after 10.5 years you should, but the relationship was not going any further, because...YOUR BF DID NOT WANT IT TO. You state yourself that you wanted something deeper, more meaningful and that is what marriage is.

My goal and I think that of others is to show you ways to start to lead your life that will allow you to develop a relationship in a way that leads to marriage. I think you sense that you want and NEED this deep commitment.

The marriages you have seen fail have all failed because the people could not tell the difference between a relationship and a marriage. I will go so far as to say that you had every right to engage yourself with another man, IF you had simply told your BF that is what you wanted to do.

Buying a house is much easier than being married. I am not saying marriages solve peoples problems on the contrary people bring lots of issues into marriages hence this site and Harley's books as well as many other books on the subject. What I am trying to say and what Mel is suggesting with her recommendation of the books for you to read is that if you learn about yourself, about boundaries, about people and their needs about the concept that each of us has a "giver and a taker" and those need to be balanced, then you will have a chance to have great and rewarding marriage.

You have fallen into a trap of thinking a certain way and you are smart enough to know it, therefore you came here. I mentioned the 5-6 states of legal existence. You are single, therefore technically you cannot commit adultery with your BF, but you can if you did it with a married man. My point is that you need to recognize where you really are so that you can move to where you want to be.

You want your BF back, but your desire for marriage isn't leaving and his desire to not be married isn't changing. Even if it did, both you would really need to learn a few things.

When I read your initial post the old saying kept coming to my mind. I know to lose a friendship of 10 years is something that would bother most people, but it seems to get where you want to be (In a committed marriage) you were going to have to lose this friendship. Breaking up no matter how "gently" it is done, leads to great pain for someone if not both.

So do your reading, ask lots of questions, and let's see if we can get you headed where you really want and need to go.

God Bless,

JL

Glad to see you are still here R17!

I just wanted to say to though that I think your situation really shows a good point.

Mel posted you based your opinion of marriage on BAD MARRIAGES and not good ones.

I will go a step farther and pose that the reason you, me and so many others, stumble upon a site like this and realize there is SO MUCH for us to learn is because

we dont have good marriages to base our knowledge on.

We are not taught as children how to be in a loving relationship. We see partial examples or outright bad examples on television, movies, in our friends and family's marriages.

We never see good ones. We dont learn about POJA or PORH. We learn about justifying, relativism, and selfishness.

Very sad. Glad to see you made it here... Good luck in your personal recovery.

Redwood,


I agree with JL.

Your XBF was satisfied with the state of the relationship - in the fact and condition especially that it was NOT leading to marriage - and that you did not push marriage or appear to want to move in that direction.

Your XBF did something that proved it. When you brought up marriage, instead, he bought a home.

Now, when he is at the point of dissolving the relationship....

what happens to the property??????




Do you see this?



The property was something he saw as the "marriage" between you two. It is now dissolved.


Your XBF was not the marrying kind. Neither were you, truthfully, because you accepted the conditions of the relationship and the concept that "marriage is only a piece of paper". Sure it is - in the case of your relationship, it appears to have been a deed to property and not a marriage license that was the piece of paper......


I'm not bashing you. I'm trying to help you see that the ten years with this man was time spent in a relationship that did not "progress" because the two of you made the choice to leave it where it was. Limbo.

I have a saying that I use for clients that I work with, and ask them if it applies to them - often they open their eyes wide and say, OMG YES. "It seems that you are you content to be mediocre." In the relationship world, that's what happened with the ten years. It was tacit acceptance of mutual purchase of property in exchange for a mutual decision not to pursue permanence or commitment in the relationship.


Now you have awakened in a new world - and I would say that something happened. I'm not so sure that we would agree on what that "something" is.

You think that you cheated on your BF, figured out how much you loved him, and wanted to go back to the "relationship", however that was defined.

Here's what I think:

I think your relationship was waning and dying a death from the lack of mutual interest and shared future goals, of the sense of permanence and commitment that gave the security to you that you needed. The OM came on the scene, and because the boundaries were already vague in your life regarding what constituted marriage, commitment, etc., a relationship developed with OM.

The idea that you "weren't really married" did cross your mind.

You moved out, believing that the live-in relationship terminated at that point. Only you realized that you didn't love the OM, and the move was a bad one.

Only....meanwhile....back at the ranch, your XBF now being free and (for lack of a better word) "single" again, realizes that he is now on the market. So he went shopping. You have all the codewords (he needs space - that is huge!) that tells you that he is NOT committed to the relationship. But what's larger? He never was truly "committed", not from the start, and you knew that.


You wanted a return to the status quo, but then again, you really didn't. You...wanted...more. And XBF knows it.

Because he knew it before - and has known for a long time. He has avoided it, and has worked to instill and reinforce the "piece of paper" concept with you over the years. Because he never was the marrying kind.

Your thoughts moved you to be more insightful, and your adventure with the OM showed you that you neither wanted the fantasy, nor the status quo with the live-in situation.


YOU WANTED MORE.

Now, you are here, and you are evaluating what has happened, how you got here, and wondering about your future relationship. You are grieving the ten years with XBF, wondering to yourself if this was "wasted time". No, not really. You learned much over those years, about what you love and like and don't like in a relationship.

But I will guarantee this: you will learn here that you do not want to go back to your XBF unless and until there is a marriage commitment for you. Why do I say that?

Because your learning curve has just begun, and you are on the rise. And I think your XBF will not meet your new criteria.


But Redwood - - - - - what this means is that the relationship you CHOOSE next, will be terrific, because you will choose it and choose right

because you will be a better person, and one who understands how marriage works.



Just my humble opinion.

SB,
Your humble opinions as always are awesome. I always feel as though I have learned something from your wisdom.
Thanks for sharing!!!

Long-time-no-write, but I'm still here....albeit barely. I have been busy reading and discovering things about myself I never knew, and that part has been really good. Challenging, but good. Steps in the right direction. But everything else going on feels like I am reaching my bottom.

I have been trying to be supportive of my XBF over the past month or so since I last wrote, and up until yesterday, I was still confident that I wanted to continue to try to work things out with him. I have been completely open and honest with him, trying to show him my love and remorse for what I did to him, and unfortunately, he started to withdraw.

He's so incredibly angry, rightfully so, and has stated he's not sure he'll ever be able to forgive me. He's still uncertain that reconciliation is even possible, but has agreed to consider couple's counceling after the new year. So why did I begin to question if I wanted to continue to try to work things out?

He began dating.

He's single. He has no obligations to me. He has no reason not to start dating. A reality that I'm trying to accept. But because I'm still so emotionally invested in him, it's a sick twist, but I feel like I'm being cheated on.

How I found out he's dating is what makes me feel so sick. I was leaving his house after spending my lunch hour hanging with the cats that he kept (I think I mentioned they are like our children and he has been letting me spend time with them about once a week while he's not there). As I was walking out to my car, something in my gut, something so incredibly strong, told me to check the paper recycling box. I think in my heart I knew I would find something, and sure enough, I did.

It was a piece of paper crumpled at the bottom that had his writing on it where he was basically practicing writing what he was going to say in either a letter or a Christmas card. Words about how hard this year has been but that he's pleasantly surprised at the recent evolution of "their friendship" and that he looks forward to what the new year holds for them. I lost my chit.

So this is what it feels like. This is what it feels like to be on the other side of the coin. No, he's not betraying me; I know it's NOT the same thing as what he felt finding out about my betrayal, I don't mean to imply that. We're no longer together and he's free to date. But it doesn't mean this doesn't hurt like hell. Especially this time of year.

I confronted him about it, and he admitted that he's been out on a few dates. He says he's not doing this to get back at me, though his extreme anger at me makes me question that statement. He says he's just trying to stay busy and keep his mind off things. Rebound? He said he's still not sure if he can get over what I've done to him, but that he's giving himself one year from D-day to figure out what he wants.

Whatever. Does it matter? I've come to the realization that while I still cling to the hope that we'll do couple's couceling soon (he agreed to consider it after I confronted him about his dating), I feel like I really need to start the process of detaching. To protect myself. To heal. To move on. Eventually I'm going to cause myself more damage than good if I continue to watch him date while he knows I'm waiting for him to decide what he wants.

I don't know how to do this anymore. I feel like giving up. Am I giving up too soon? Am I over-reacting? Am I just depressed because of this time of year? On Chistmas Eve, I am alone. This is just another consequence of my decision to cheat. Yeah, I'm pity-partying myself; I know I'm not the victim here. But I just don't know what to do or how to let go. I don't want to let him go.

I don't really have any questions for you guys; I just needed to vent. Thanks.

Merry Christmas...

If you give up now then he will know that deep down there was no such thing as reconciling with him, if the first sign of him dating you run off??? Then he will know that waiting to reconcile with you was the right choice and that you were not worth it.

BUT!!!

If u don't give up and you are still there even if he is dating and you stick to the plan then the waiting, the pain, the hurt, will all pay off!

But giving up now will for sure for sure not getting the the love of your life back.

Good luck and don't give up!

I know, I know. I really don't want to give up, I don't. And I told him I wouldn't. That his dating hasn't changed the fact that I want to get back together; told him I'm going to wait for him because I love him entirely too much to do anything else.

But he won't let me meet any of his emotional needs right now. In fact, ever since I apologized for hurting him and starting trying to show him my love and remorse, he got even angrier. Perhaps it was easier for him to feel like he was the one who stopped meeting my needs and my betrayal was his fault. Yes, in my wayward fog, I blame-shifted my cheating on him early on after D-day, but have since REPEATEDLY apologized for making him feel like it was his fault and have told him over and over how nothing was his fault, that it was entirely my own. He seems to accept this now, thankfully.

But since he's come to understand that I want to help him heal and recover and "fix" what I did to us, it seems like he's either completely withdrawn from me or he's expressing extreme anger towards me. I don't know what to think of that. Would actually like a BS's point of view on this....

He knows he's in the driver's seat and has the chance to give me the greatest gift of all (reconsiliation), and maybe this has brought him out of thinking he needed to let me go, and now that he knows he doesn't have to let me go, maybe it's brought him back into pain because he knows he has a choice to make? I don't know; that's probably an unfair assumption of me to make, but when I mentioned this to him (that he seemed nicer toward me before I started professing my love and apologies), he agreed but didn't have an answer as to why. Just said he's so angry and that I have no idea how angry he is....wants to kill the OM. Yikes.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement not to give up yet. He is SO worth waiting for. And I hope he can see, by my actions, that I'm worth it too. In the mean time though, I need to read more on this forum on how to try to meet his needs when we're separated and he just wants to be "left alone". Left alone so he continue dating?! Sigh, that hurts....

Thanks Sapphire~

Hi Redwood,

I am glad you are back. Have you read School Bus' post? If so, read it again, in my opinion she has nailed it.

Let me ask you a question that has been asked many times on this site. "What would you do if you were not afraid?"

A lot of your responses is fear. Fear of being alone. Fear of losing something, even if you don't really value it. Fear of not being good enough. Fear of...

If you have been reading the books and articles are starting to get a glimpse of what a good relationship can be. Your exBF is not the only man who can, could, and will love you. BUT, first you must learn to love yourself and be proud of the things you have learned and the goals you have in your life.

What are your goals these days? Do you need exBF to achieve them? (Please ask me, please, I know the answer. He says jumping up and down. )

You have apologized, you are learning, you are growing, you have admitted you know what you really want and that is a real marriage with real depth to it. Your exBF is not offering you that. Indeed, he is dating someone else. She may be better for him, she may not. She may get a commitment out of him, she may not.

Really none of that matters. You are learning that the "feelings" of love are not necessarily the "actions" of love. And Frankly you need a man that loves you and his actions show it. You need to find a man that you love and your actions also show it. You and your exBF did not do this, and perhaps never will.

You are not "giving up" if you move on with your life and let him move on with his. If in the future, he can meet your needs and you can meet his, then perhaps something deeper will happen.

One last thing I thought I would offer you to as a Christmas gift. Consider what you have learned, consider what you know about yourself, and then reflect back on the marriages you know that failed. Did those people KNOW what you now know and are learning? I doubt it. Just as you realized that your affair with OM was "textbook", you will come to realize that a good marriage is also "textbook", it is not luck. People that know and understand what is on this whether they got it here or elsewhere have successful marriages.

That is your gift for the year. Knowledge that a good marriage is "textbook". It can and very likely will happen to you if that is what you want and seek.

God Bless,

JL

Long-time-no-reply. Just a quick update for anyone who may have been following my thread.

After several very difficult months of reflection and therapy, I finally came to the healthy decision to cause myself no more pain. My ex was clearly not interested in reconciliation, and my actions were doing nothing other than to keep my head suspended under a weight of guilt and frustration. It hit me one day like a ton of bricks to simply.....let go. And just like that, I did. I guess I was finally ready.

Shortly thereafter, I took a solo vacation somewhere peaceful and beautiful to allow myself some time for well-needed healing and peaceful reflection. I enjoyed 10 days of solitude and felt as though my recovery, my personal recovery, was finally here. It was such a wonderful feeling of freedom, such a happiness that I didn't realize had been missing from my life, my own self-imposed prison. A deep sigh of relief and contentment, and I was ready to start a new chapter in my life.

Such is the way the universe works, I met a wonderful man on the plane and we have become great friends and are well on our way to a storybook romance. Instead of allowing myself to fall head-over heals, I had learned enough about myself this past year to know that I needed to revisit Dr. Harley's books on how to have a great marriage. If this relationship continues to build and grow, I will be ready this time. And I think that may be the best gift I've given to myself. However, let me state for the record, that the wonderful folks here at MB played an integral role in my personal recovery; thank you from the bottom of my heart.

As a final parting twist to the story, my ex contacted me when I got back from my vacation and told me he misses me and wants to see me. Irony, no? Or is it simply testament to my new-found confidence and happiness? Regardless, I was open and honest with my ex and told him that I have met someone. And if things don't work out with this new man, I know fully well that I can stand on my own two feet....that I don't need my ex or any man to bring me balance and peace. I am my own light. My own breath fuels my life. And my smile is back

Thank you MB for helping me through an anormously difficult time in my life, as well as helping me to build a foundation for the next chapter in it. Cheers and best wishes to you all!

Ok, so you're still NOT divorced and still cheating.

NOT SO FAIRYTALE. Or maybe it is, because fairy tales are just that.

How is it that you jump from one to another so quickly? I don't get that. If you proclaim that "I don't need a man" then why don't you simply part ways with your bh, DIVORCE HIM, then work on yourself and date when you are properly healed?

After I divorced I worked on myself, didn't date for a year or two, and even then decided I wasn't yet ready to date for a little while longer. HEALING AND BECOMING WHOLE was priority. Not jumping onto some other guy or having an affair myself when I was separated. That IS NOT PROGRESS. In fact, it's downright dirty.

Peachy not to lessen what you said in any way but they are not married they have been together 10 years but not married so what timeline is advisable in this situation before dating if there is no divorce because they never got married?

Met someone on the plane? Wow. It is nice to date new guys for sure.

It is a good thing you and your boyfriend were not legally married so you are ethically free to do so.


I do hope you find a good guy who you want to tie the knot with and who wants to tie one with you.

Peace.

The fact that I never married my ex and yet posted asking for help from a marriage building website was a realization that I certainly took some 2x4s for, believe me. But I think that's the beauty of this program; it enabled me to understand why a marriage between my ex and I would never have worked, as hard as I might've tried. However, that's where the real beauty comes in: now I know what lies ahead for when I am ready to marry.

God Bless!

Good luck.

wow you took some 2x4's

Good luck on creating the new you......

Respect honey

Just wanting to say then, if you're not married, GLAD you're letting the long term BF go so he can find somebody he can marry and maybe you'll do the same.


Hopefully this was a huge learning experience for you.