I was informed just yesterday (in an anonymous email from a co-worker of the 'other woman') that 3 years ago my husband had a year-long affair with a woman who he still keeps in contact with (and attends out-of-town conventions with, and has tried to get me to befriend, etc.). The other woman, who has since divorced her husband and is engaged to another man now, is telling people that they were in love and my husband promised to divorce me and marry her, but never followed through, causing her to feel hurt and resentful. My husband insists that while she confessed her love for him, he never reciprocated or said he would leave me. CAN I BELIEVE THIS???

Upon further questioning, he also admitted to a less lengthy liason with a past co-worker.

The worst part of it, and the part I'm mainly looking for advice on is this: my husband said, when asked, that he may do it again in the future. I don't understand how he can have that little commitment even when he says he wants us to stay together. To worsen matters, he has only female friends, most of whom he spends a lot of tiem with at work and who he texts constantly with when he is home. He is also frequently pursued and 'hit on' by co-workers and random women who he comes into contact with. His boss has actually had to forbid women from even speaking with him because it was too distracting.

How can we make this work? What do I do?

You want to polygraph him.

Judging from what he says about the co-worker, it sounds as if you need to employ extraordinary precautions.

Can you give us some data on your marriage and family details!

No. Nor should you. He's clearly still trying to get away with telling some of the truth, but not all of it. Whether he's doing this out of a misguided effort to "protect your feelings" or purely to cover his butt, it's called "trickle-truth" and it's not helpful to your odds of fixing your marriage.


Lots of red flags here, PurpleAlligator.

To make this work, your husband is going to have to:
(1) Give a damn. (His comment to the effect that he 'may do this again' suggests he doesn't);
(2) Cease all contact with the women with whom he has had physical and/or emotional affairs, unequivocally and permanently. (Read about "No Contact" on this site.) This is non-negotiable in order for your marriage to survive & recover; and
(3) Reset his personal boundaries to completely exclude non-business-related conversation with, flirting with, texting with, and maintaining friendships with other women. This behavior of his is not normal for a married person, and it is not conducive to survival of any marriage. He is basically allowing all sorts of other women to meet various emotional needs of his (from admiration to attention to conversation to companionship to sex), and as long as that continues, you can't compete no matter how great you are.

Get the book "Surviving An Affair." It may at least help you make sense of what's happened & where you might go from here. If your husband gets to the point of giving a damn, then he should want to read it with you, because he can learn a lot from it.

purplealligator,

I see what the other posters see as well, GloveOil has given you some advice to ponder, educate yourself before you react anymore.......
You have some snooping to do and then some thinking to do.........doesn't have to be today......get the facts first and then go from there........Look up affair fog babble............see if any of it fits.........
I think your husband isnt' acting like a good husband with good boundaries........
You probably only know part of the story...........
good luck and welcome aboard.....

You guys are basically echoing what I can't help but think.

Details on our family: We've been married for 9 years (since I was 17 and he was 22), and prior to the affair, we had only slept with each other (which makes it much more difficult).

We have three children who are now 7, 6, and 4 (and were about 4, 3 and 1 at the time of the affairs).

Something I forgot to mention earlier: He told me in our discussion of where to go now, that if tomorrow was supposed to be our wedding day, he probably could not go through with it.

I don't want to unjustly pick on him, though. He is extremely giving and caring. Is a perfect father. Helps people change their lives for the better for a living. And he has probably put more overall effort into the marriage than I have over the years.

I'd listen to him and believe him. He's telling you that he's not going to change his spots... is that something you can live with?


I'm so sorry that you had to find us.

I'd also like to add that the plans here WILL help you, possibly with marital recovery, and most definitely with personal recovery. Please read the articles here.

I certainly can't live with the expectation that any minute he's away from me, there's a potential affair in the works.

If he changes his tune and says he's committed to never letting this happen again no matter what the circumstances, could I have any real hope that it would work out that way?

He would have to be totally transparent to you, you would have all access to all his communication devices and a GPS would let you know where he is at all times....
You would have all passwords to his comp, phone........it's the only way it would work.........
If he says no he might be hiding something.........

Thanks for the suggestion, jessitaylor. Currently, he has all my passwords, access to my phone, etc., but I have none of these things. He deletes his texts frequently. I don't even think he brings his work cell home. And part of his job is to make in-home visits with his clients, so there is little I can do to know what he's doing during the day.

Okay, I just sent an email to the OW. I very calmly, patiently, respectfully, told her I felt she had been disrespectful by continuing comunication with him and befriending me after the affair without telling me. I told her the blame lies on all of us, and asked her if she'd like to share her side of the story.

Was this a good idea???

Why in the world would you be calm and respectful to a woman who so totally abused you and your marriage?

Purplealligator, unless your H does a 180 and decides to commit to this marriage, he will continue to stray. Are you willing to remain in a marriage with a serial cheater?

Thanks for the bluntness, maritalbliss. I probably need some of that.

PA, welcome to Marriage Builders, I am sorry you are here. My suggestion would be to make plans to separate from your husband. You must accept him how he is and how he is is dangerous to you. He is extremely abusive and thoughtless and will tear you down even more if you allow it.

There is nothing to be done unless and until he commits to making radical changes in his life. You cannot force him to change against his will.

Please get the book Surviving an Affair and follow the guidelines for Plan B.

P-A
Sorry to see you here.

OW are low lifes and they have the mentality that they did nothing wrong.

It is trying to reason with a rock.

Forget her.

If your M has no boundaries it will just be the next OW.

You need to start reading everything on this site. Many of the vets can help you here.

Blessings.

Thanks so much everyone for the support and the suggestions. I truly never imagined that I would be in this situation.

Honestly, WH is remorseful, but says his needs are not being met, so he can't promise he won't try to get them met elsewhere.

He is truly a good person, but is sexually insatiable, and emotionally needy, whereas I could take it or leave it as far as the sex goes, and can be emotionally detached.

First start by getting the book "surviving an affair" which you can order on this website.

Read all that you can. You need to set boundardies and have a plan.

Do you work or at home?

I'm a stay-at-home mom and freelance newswriter, so I only work out of the home about an hour each week.

WH works long days in and out of the office and is out of town once a week. Occassionally I go with him, but usually he says I'd be bored if I went or he doesn't want to ask his mom to watch the kids, so goes by himself.

I'm getting pretty frantic now as it's almost time for WH to get home. I only found out about this last night, confronted him immediately, and spent the next several hours trying to scrub the image out of my brain. didn't get any sleep.

I don't know what to say to him.

UGHHH

Follow Melody's advice. It's spot on.

Update: He came home to say that he was wrong. That his gut reaction to say that he couldn't promise me no more affairs came from a place of strong resentment for ways that I've ignored his needs during our marriage. He said that he would discontinue contact with the OW and all of his female friends and coworkers (one of whom he admitted to having romantic feelings for, and another who he admitted he would have had an affair with had the opportunity arisen). He plans to leave his current office in the coming months. He said he would give me 100% of his time, attention and effort, and that if I decided to leave anyway, the house, car, kids, dogs, etc. are mine and he will financially support me so that I can continue with the same lifestyle I'm used to while staying home with the kids. He said he'll go to couple's counseling if I want to, and suggested that I get counseling by myself, too.

What do you guys think?

I think you've disrupted his status quo, and he doesn't like it. I also think he's saying an awful lot of pretty things. But there's nothing in your post that indicates any action on his part.

I would ask him to write an NC letter to his current OW, for starters. Then I would suggest that he talk to Steve Harley to help him get straight. I can tell you from personal experience that couples counseling can be a real waste of money. Your best bang for the buck is to counsel with the Harleys.

See what his reaction is to that.

Thanks for the suggestion, maritalbliss.

Honestly, I know that staying is a stupid thing to do. He's so used to garnering huge amounts of attention (and satisfaction) from other women (emotionally, physically, etc.) that it seems next to impossible for him to actually change that.

And the fact that I actually felt GUILTY about asking him to get rid of all his friends (he has not one male buddy) means I'm ridiculously prone to let this happen again.

But I really would like to give him one more chance. I did tell him that if I don't leave now, I absolutely will kick his butt to the curb at even a hint of an infraction on his part in the future.

I'm not going to say that it's stupid for you to want to stay. This is your life and you get to make that call. But I do think there's going to have to be significant change on his part and he has to be willing to do the work.

Let me re-phrase something so you'll stop feeling guilty about it, ready?:
The fact of the matter is that he has no business having female friends. So he'll need to start hanging with the guys at the water cooler.

Thanks so much for that rephrasing. This is exactly what I need.

He just called me and told me that the OW called him on his work phone this morning to say that her 'psycho ex-boyfriend' is being horrible to her and sent that email. She asked him to get into my email account and send it to her so she could read it. He didn't do it, but when I asked if he told her not to contact him anymore, he said "I left her with the impression that there won't be any more contact." WHAT THE HECK??????

Hello PA,

You say that your WH is sexually insatiable, emotionally needy and only has female friends...

What do you REALLY think is the reason he does not want you to travel with him and thinks you would be "bored" and doesn't want to make arrangements for the kids so that you can accompany him on his "business trips"?

God bless.

Jim

Jim, I've kept excellent tabs on him lately, and there hasn't been opportunity for an affair recently, but I assume it's only a matter of time and he's been setting himself up for the opportunity.

And by the way, I just called the OW, called her out on being a pretty pittiful human being, and said no more contact period. Then I called WH and told him to grow some b***s.

NC letter. Tonight.

Can someone screen his calls? Is there a receptionist? Does he have Caller ID on his work phone?

Apparently, she called the office, mentioned she's a colleague (she is in the same profession and they attended graduate school together), and they put her through. THEN, and here's the topper, he said "I can't talk in front of everyone, call me on my cell phone."

He had the nerve to say to me (when I was mad that he hadn't told her bluntly to buzz off) "...but we've been friends for a long time..."

Well, you've gotta figure that he's a wayward. They say all kinds of weird things.

Your WH needs to inform the receptionist that he is receiving unwanted calls. She needs to screen this person out.

You'll need to role play with your WH for the next possible contact. And he's pretty darned close to the proper way to handle it, which is:
WH: "I can't talk in front of everyone, let me call you right back." Then he gets the number and calls YOU. YOU call HER and unleash a little righteous wife indignation on her.

BTW, In addition to writing the NC letter, WH needs to change his cell phone number. Today.

PA,

By saying there has been no opportunity for an affair I take it there have been no more overnights away from you and you have demanded that there are no more overnight "business trips"?

Dr.Harley states that a couple should NEVER spend their nights away from each other for this very reason.

Why would you think that the OW or another OW could not be seeing him on his "business trips that you should not accompany him on" ESPECIALLY since you have a "take it or leave it attitude" about sex, particularly with someone like your WH who is "insatiable" about sex. Where do you think he has been satisfying himself?

Jim

NC letter tonight or else.

But how should he end the relationships with various other women in his life? My suggestion was to say "I have been unfaithful and lost my wife's trust, and in order to regain her trust and show her that I am completely committed to making her feel safe and loved with me again, I need this relationship to end. We cannot spend time together, discuss non-work related issues, text, or have any other type of contact from this point on." His suggestion (and how he's handling things today) is to avoid them and look busy.

Jim, I'm glad you're being hard on me. Thank you.

These trips haven't been over-nighters, but neither were most of the times he was with the OW.

I don't think he has to make big statements every time a woman approaches him. Body language should do the trick. And you can help him role-play that, as well. Practice being a 'friend' and approach him while he's 'working at his desk.' What possible interaction would there be? Brainstorm that and practice. For example, how would he handle a woman approaching his desk with a work-related matter, but she leans in a little to closely to him. His response would be to move his chair back and stand up with the chair between them while discussing the work-related matter.

Think of other scenarios - and he might have more than you. Role play these. It will help him establish firm boundaries with women if he's had practice.

In my sitch, my H and I role-played a few different scenarios and he thought it was great. He had no conscious experience with setting boundaries before the A, so he learned a lot.

Oh - another thing we've done while role-playing is to keep me in the forefront of his interactions: if a woman approaches him at work and comments on his great-smelling cologne, his response is: "I'll tell my wife - she loves the scent, too, and got it for me as a gift."

He brings me up in conversation frequently, always in a positive, loving way. And that's with males or females.

I think we can try this. I didn't really want him to go through that whole spill with all of the women in the office, mainly just the two who he spends huge amounts of time with and is in constant communication with, one of them whom he's admitted to having romantic feelings for, and who he's gone to great lengths to try to include in our lives and our kids' lives up until this point.

PA,

Anyone he has had an A with either an EA or a PA should be sent a NC letter.

From this point on it is necessary to for the "other women in his life" to see you in the role of his wife, lover, and best friend...

It is necessary for them to SEE this or they will believe his lies to them.

I really think that if at all possible you should make appearances at his work for lunch and let them ALL see you with him having a great time.

Send him little tokens of appreciation like a BIG card or a teddy bear, something to let others SEE you are in love with him and take note of HOW he acts in front of them...

When Mrs.Flint was wayward I sent her flowers and went to visit her when I knew they had been delivered and...

found them in the closet.

God bless.

Jim

Wow, Jim - in the closet? That's remarkably harsh.

The thing is, I do go to his office pretty frequently. I stop by when I'm in the neighborhood, say hi to everyone, have met all of these women many times, sometimes I bring the kids, he even has a few of those tokens from me on permanent display there. Despite all this, he is still wandering and some of these women are pretty aggressive in their pursuits (because he lets them be). I have to wonder if they all just feel very, very bad for the dopey wife.

PA,

Have you considered getting a Voice Activated Recorder for his car yet? Another thing would be to put a GPS on his car and see where he goes during lunch and also after work.

Jim

I've considered a recorder, spyware for his phone, I even mentioned to him that he should put a GPS on the car so I know where he is just to see his reaction to the idea. He was pretty indifferent. As I said earlier, he frequently has to make in-home visits with clients for work, so I don't know how I would even tell these apart from non-work house calls.

I don't know much about this kind of thing. I suppose I need to look into it more. What a sad, scared way to live.

PA,

You are in luck because right below Surviving an Affair is a forum called Operation Investigate that has a LOT of information on GPS, VAR's, keylogging and other investigating tools!

Killing the affairs and restoring your M is a PROCESS...

You just keep swatting it until the beast destroying your M is dead...dead...dead!!!

When you are back on level ground without having the A's interference you may be surprised at how wonderful your M can be...

but first you've got to kill the A.

Jim

Got it, Jim. Swat it til it's dead!!

I'm not sure if you answered this, but what is the story on his job? If he has romantic feelings toward a woman in his office, all the role-playing in the world will probably not help you.

I suggested role-playing thinking that he needed to build boundaries with women who might come on to him in the future.

Hmmm. The woman he's got romantic feelings for really concerns me, Pa.

So I'm trying to read all the info on this site, to look at the threads and see what other people are doing and what is/isn't working, etc., but I'm getting a bit overwhelmed.

Can someone explain to me what a Plan A and Plan B are?

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband:


The Carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Also, please read the emotional needs section of this website...

Thanks, bottlerocket.

maritalbliss, sorry i overlooked your question, but here's the answer.

The women at his job are a huge source of stress for me (even before I knew all this). There are several who make blatant advances, and he always said he just ignores it. They stand too close, touch too much, one woman actually reached out and held his hand while explaining something. One was fired after another co-worker publicized a very sexual letter she had written to a staff member about wanting him. His boss ordered one to not even speak to him anymore because it was too distracting for everyone. (I know this sounds absurd and I suppose is teh downfall of marrying a remarkably handsome, likeable man?)

Anyway, I asked him last night about a particular woman who I had worried about before. He said he does feel for her romantically, but didn't say he 'loved' her. She is the first person he went to when I found out about the affairs so that he could talk to someone. Just days ago I begged him to put down his phone and stop texting her while my brother was visiting us, and he simply wouldn't do it, but said 'I deserve some free time, too.' He says she doesn't really know how he feels, but I'm sure she does. He says he won't have any relationship with her now, but intends to just try to ignore her in the office rather than saying a definite adios.

I believe the only way for you to reconcile at all is for him to leave his job and find another one, one that doesn't have soo many females

I wouldn't sit still for this, Pa. Is your WH willing to leave that job?

He was working on leaving this job already, actually. He isn't very happy there, and is now working one day a week to build up a client base at another practice. The other practice is out of town, about an hour and a half from home, but the plan has been for the whole family to stay there three days a week and here at home the rest of the week once this starts. I definitely can't trust him with a second home he can run off to now, though.

WH and I are planning to fill out our Emotional Needs Questionnaires tonight. I'm very interested to see how this is going to go. I know we're polar opposites, but it should be good to see it on paper to help work things out.

I also told his mom about the A today. She and I are very close, and she said she knew something was going on and asked if I needed anything. She's the first person I've talked to (not on a computer) besides WH and OW, so it felt good to get some things out with a totally supportive person there. Of course, she was appalled and said to never allow him to speak to a woman ever again. he's going to be mad when he finds out she knows.

Seriously, PA. You need to do some snooping and find out what is "really" going on here. My FWH also wanted to include OW in our lives. That's why I didn't believe it was an affair. I thought it was too blatant to be true. Our kids played together!



He does not seem to be very committed to the M at this point. I know that sounds hard - sorry. I've been there. I agree with maritalbliss - don't sit still for this.

Thanks, pokerface. I know what you mean about 'too blatant to be true'! The first OW is someone I've met several times over the years. he encouraged me to be buddies with her, we all went out to dinner together, hung out in the off-hours of conferences and such, etc. I thought she seemed great and even suggested they start a business together!
The woman from the current EA is someone he has tried again and again to get me together with. He talks about her a lot, set up times for us to get together for exercise classes we were both taking, she offered to babysit anytime for us, he wanted our daughter to join the girl scout troupe she leads and be friends with her daughters, and the list goes on and on.

Have you checked his phone to see the contents of those texts?

He deletes everything really frequently, and I'm sure got rid of incriminating evidence immediately. At the time (just three days ago, it's amazing!) I didn't think a lot about it except to be annoyed. I saw a couple of texts between them that were pretty plain and unincriminating, but I'll never know what else was deleted.

Tell him you would prefer that he not delete his texts anymore.

maritalbliss, I'll tell him as soon as he gets home. I already told him he had to give me open access to his phone and email. No deletions before I see them would be a good addition.

This is a good opportunity. Ask him for his phone when he gets home and see what he says. There may be some on there that he hasn't deleted yet.

Did he agree to access to his email as well? Do you have all passwords? I'm concerned that he is playing you, Pa. His history is poor. I'd have my finger on the Plan B button and be ready to move to that if he isn't completely transparent with you.

He gave me his email password, but it took him about half an hour to respond to my text asking him for it. In hindsight, I should have called him so he couldn't hedge or take time to delete anything first.

His phone is password protected, but was easily figured out because its the same as our garage door code, so I don't think he was trying too hard to hide anything that way. Probably just with frequent deleting.

When he finished at work, he put forth some effort by texting me to let me know that he was leaving, that he was picking up takout for dinner, that he was leaving the restaurant, etc. but I can't shake the feeling that it still seemed to take more time than necessary to do each of those things. Maybe that's just paranoia, but I'm not sure.

PA,

Waywards lie...

about EVERYTHING THEY DO.

Your WH was probably creating ANOTHER email account for the OW's and deleting what he didn't want you to see.

Mrs.Flint SWORE ON OUR CHILDRENS LIVES that she was not having an affair with my ex-brother for YEARS...

ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO ASK HIM FOR IS WORTHLESS AS FAR AS CHECKING UP ON HIM!!!

You MUST start using the investigative methods you have been advised about such as VAR, GPS and keylogging.

Read the forum on investigating and stop believing your WH whereabouts or that he is telling you the truth without VERIFYING it first.

Jim

Pa, you're going to have to do some serious snooping here. VAR, GPS and a keylogger on your computer for starters. It really sounds like he's got something going on with the co-worker, and you'll need to find that out.

DON'T talk to him about it. Just do it. And if you find something, come here first and we'll help you figure out what to do with it.

Of course he will be mad. You just destroyed his secret fantasy world. Don't let his anger stop you from doing what you have to do to save your M.

What about current OW? Have you exposed to her family?

PA, you need to expose this all at once. Don't trickle expose this, that would be a BIG mistake.

Get your list together for exposure targets.

Don't REACT. You need to devise a plan and ACT on that PLAN.

I'll start by saying I'm the worst spy ever. I bought a program that tracks gps, records calls, texts, the works. And I paid for it with paypal since he's way less likely to check that than a bank or credit card. BUT I forgot that paypal sends 2 emails after you buy something and I only deleted the first. He knew about it before it was even installed and boy was he ticked off!

He calmed down without a big ordeal, but I got irritated and made a snarky comment about how he handled ending it with the EA OW and it was like a bomb went off. He exploded - I'm talking picking up the 10-foot dining table and slamming it back down. Yelling like I've never heard in my life.

The next few hours alternated between his tirades (I've caused more damage to him than an affair ever could have to me, I sound like a crazy person, I'm being idiotic, I had him willing to reform but my bad attitude messed it up and now I'm not in control - he calls the shots because he's been through more...) and his sitting there in silence. I fought dirty, I tried to ignore things he said just to 'get' me, then I cried like a baby and eventually had a panic attack (I have an anxiety disorder).

A good bit of what he said was true, though another big portion was just terrible mean stuff designed to hurt me.

In the end he told me I needed to go to sleep (because I was panicking again), took me to bed, gave me benadryl to help me sleep more soundly, and held me for a while.

I'm completely befudled. I have no idea what's even going on. And I won't see him until late tomorrow night (because of his work). So now I'm left with total and utter confusion, intense anger and self-loathing until I have a chance to talk to him Thursday evening.

PA, Think about what happened here. He broke your trust (more than once) and he expects you to just believe him? Why, because he's been so trustworthy in the past? He is unjustly shifting the blame back to you.

What has he really done to stop the A and protect the M? Has he done anything that you have asked ... such as NC letter? You are not the one with a bad attitude.

What he is really doing here is protecting his A and blaming you.

"He has been through more..." Really?

Have you read the MB articles? What is your plan?

What part was true? The things he said were WORD FOR WORD wayward speak or fogbabble or whatever you want to call it.

Right, you are completely befuddled because he gaslighted you...successfully...

PA, as was pointed out, you need a plan. This way, no matter what your WH says to distract you, you know what you are going to do.

Do you want help with a PLAN?

OK, so he admitted that he has romantic feelings for this woman that he constantly texts but won't let you read them? He has already admitted the two prior As? IMO, you are ready for exposure.

You need to expose this to your parents & his parents, close family and friends, and the workplace. All three As. As Scotty pointed out, you need to do this in one day and DO NOT trickle expose.

Once the dust settles from exposure, this is what you will need from your WH to agree to:
~ NC with all three OW, and NC letters
~ EP, extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair (no more opposite sex friendships)
~ 100 % transparency (no erasing texts, giving you access to all of his records and phone at any time, email, etc)
~ leave workplace with current OW
~ coaching with Steve Harley

Prepare to move to Plan B if the above is not agreed to. Anything less than this is just a recipe for disaster, PA. Even if you are able to end the current A and end communications with the previous OW, your H is a walking A time bomb unless some drastic changes are made.

Let us know what you think. Hang in there!

Do you have SAA? You need to start learning about Plan B as it will take you a couple of weeks to get your ducks lined in a row....

Here is a good link: Preparing for Plan B

Listen to what you are being told: your H is trying to shift the focus to you and off the A with this OW. Don't fall for it. Follow the plan being outlined here. Your H is conducting emotional warfare on you, and you need to know how to respond correctly.

SusieQ is dead-on, Pa. You can't go off in so many directions. Make your plan and follow it.

Oh, and next time he blows up like this, walk away. Do not engage him or try to calm him. If necessary, pack up the kids and leave. This is not acceptable, gaslighting or not.

Thanks everyone. I know I need to hear all of these things, even if it's difficult.

Here are the newest bombs dropped on me: There was ANOTHER A a few years ago that he just admitted to. But even worse, the current EA, which he told me was very new and very innocent, is actually a PA. I looked through our phone records and saw that they'd been calling each other 15 times a day, every day for months. When confronted, he admitted that they just talked a lot... then finally that they've been sleeping together... then finally that he told her he loved her and they've talked about leaving their spouses and getting married. He even took our youngest son to meet her last weekend! He admitted that the working late out of town last night was scheduled to coincide with a conference she had in the same city.

I'm completely devestated all over again, but the upside is he's no longer angry, defensive, or trying to turn it around on me. Now that this one is in the open he's actually showing all the remorse and regret and love for me that he wasn't yesterday. He's taking responsibility, not being defensive, agreeing to NC letters that he acted indignant about before. I exposed to close family and friends, and I think it helped put things into perspective when he had to talk openly to them about this. He even wants to have a talk with his brother who's getting married soon about how to not end up in a situation like this!

He asked me to go with him for work last night. Sitting there with nothing to do but dwell on this A while he worked was mindnumbingly awful, but afterward I explained to him what I needed - complete honesty and openness, 100% effort to improve our relationship, an end to all female aquaintances, and for him to make me feel like the most wanted, most loved person in the world. He agreed that I deserved all of this and that he would do whatever it took not to lose me. We were even able to go out to dinner afterwards and have a pretty nice time together.

I'm seriously hoping that this is the start of rebuilding our marriage into something better than it was before.

Pa, I would suggest a few things that he needs to accomplish in order to begin recovery:

NC letter to the current OW
Names and marital status of past OW
Quit the job
Polygraph
STD test for both of you
Counseling with the Harleys

It's all well and good that he seems remorseful now, but that means little without some concrete action on his part. Your WH has been catting around for years. I think I mentioned before that you really need to consider whether or not you want a life with a man who is a serial cheater. Are you sure you do? If so, you need to set your recovery bar very high, and he needs to meet your requirements. Anything less will leave you in a battered marriage with a wayward husband who will jump on his next opportunity. Your mental and emotional health are at stake, here.

PA,

You have a gold mine of experience at your disposal in the MB forum. Use it. Keep reading the threads and the MB principles. Use these resources to educate and protect yourself.

Take the time to verify that this A has not just gone further underground (like my FWH who also said all the right things).
You still need a PLAN. Current OW also needs to be exposed. Do not warn beforehand. Be prepared for WH response.

Think about what we tell you because we speak from first hand experience. We are on your side.

maritalbliss, I'm thinking the same thing myself - is it a bad idea to remain with someone who can do this again and again? I honestly love him, and besides the cheating, he is an absolutely amazing person. I almost wonder sometimes if I'm just staying so that he can't have a happy ending with the OW, though.

pokerface, I'm terrified that he's just hiding it better now. How can he see someone every day at work who he has had this relationship with (he said the relationship was not about the sex like the others, that was just an added thing, but it was about their feelings for each other) and be strong enough not to fall back into it? He does plan to leave this job, but it may be weeks before he can do that. As someone who's been there, what should I watch for now? How do I know he isn't just going further underground?

As for exposing the OW, I thought about it. I wanted to do it. WH reminded me that they would both be fired immediately, which would mean we'd have not enough income to pay our bills while he's working on building his other practice. I was pretty mad that he was trying to convince me not to oust her, but at the sime time we have to pay the bills and put food on the table. The OW won't be at work the rest of this week, and I considered having WH use up however much vacation time he's got starting Monday just to keep them away from each other as long as I can, but what do I do when he eventually has to go back?

How are the two of you going to work out paying the bills when your marriage ends?

His working with the OW won't work, PA, period. Not only does Dr Harley stress this but we have seen it over and over and over again on the boards. You are signing up for an on again off again affair if you agree to this.

Please read this: Read My Lips: No Contact Means No Contact

Without a serious plan in place, he will just do this to you again. I don't know if your H is a serial cheater but one thing I do know for sure is that he had developed a lifestyle in which he has been accustomed to hiding his SSL (secret second life) from you and he is accustomed to getting his ENs met outside the M. It is going to take a lot of hard work and most likely professional help for him to change.

First, he has to leave the workplace. Second, I wouldn't bother unless you two sign up for MB coaching. Just a verbal commitment from him to end opposite sex relationships isn't nearly enough. He will need to develop an detail EP (extraordinary precaution) list. The coaching center can help him to do this. You two will also need to integrate your lifestyles so that you spend most of your free time together.

In short, if he is not willing to do the following, I would move to Plan B until he does so:
~ leave the job
~ end ALL contact with all three OW, including changing his phone number or switch his phone with you
~ become completely transparent
~ coach with Steve Harley
~ polygraph (to make sure there are no other As ~ to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more)

Otherwise you are just signing up for more of the same, PA...and you are allowing him to throw crumbs of a marriage at you after multiple affairs.

Hello PA,

From reading your posts it seems that you probably have some money set aside for building his other practice, possibly some home equity and other sources such as borrowing from your pension plans...

There is a twofold purpose in being adamant that he leave this job...

First and by far the most important is to get him away from this OW.

Your M will NOT survive him being around the OW.

Mrs.Flint will NEVER have contact with my ex-brother again for that very reason.

Secondly your WH MUST learn that there are consequences for developing inappropriate relationships with women.

Having to compensate for his selfish choices by using money he had planned to use for other things will reinforce in his mind that there ARE consequences for him this time...

and there will be again if he is tempted to do it again.

Jim

It can't be "business as usual" when an A threatens to destroy your M. Your H needs to take Jim's advice. There is a H U G E price to pay for adultery. His other practice will just have to wait.

This affair NEEDS to be exposed at work and to the OWH

and if they lose their job it's not because of you its because of their behavior.

"You can always choose your actions, BUT YOU CAN NOT CHOOSE the CONSEQUENCES!!"

Thanks again for all of the advice. Honestly, if I hadn't found this board and listened to the advice of people who had been here before, I would never have even found out about the current A or probably a couple of the past A's.

I'm going to ask him to resign at work. He's obviously not strong enough to deal with seeing the OW every day. And I'm going to let OW's husband know (I have to wait until he's back in town on Monday, because otherwise I'm not sure how to get in touch with him.).

Here's the newest development that I just don't know how to handle: he came home during lunch today to see me. I had gotten so out of my mind from the lack of sleep, not being able to eat, emotional stress, that I started drinking just before he got here. When he arrived, ready to be sweet and thinking I would be, too, I said some things out of frustration that I wouldn't have if I were sober. (This is NOT a common thing, by the way. It is extremely out of character for me to drink at all, but I didn't know how to deal with my emotions today.) WH got pretty upset that I was being unfriendly. Honestly, I feel like I have a right to be as hateful as I want, but he asserted that I have plenty of faults and haven't had to deal with any more trauma than he has. So, again, he's displacing the blame, even though I brought on the defensiveness.

Also, he mentioned that OW has called him several times today, but that he hasn't answered his phone. (He sent her NC letter this morning.) He has also texted me many times today, asking me how I am and just chatting. I'm glad he's putting forth some effort with this (one of my main issues for a long time is that he never talks to me or tells me anything), but I'm having a really hard time not being bitter.

PurpleAlligator,
What you are feeling is all normal.
I think you have to hang on to the positives here,
You husband has sent the OW a NC letter and has not returned her calls, this is a good thing, I would suggest he changes his phone # or find a way to block hers from his phone.......
He has called you many times today to check on you, this is also a good thing. right now just make sure you thank him for his thoughtfulness and his efforts.
You can't expect everything to heal in a day, it takes time, you will be sad, you will be angry, you will be disappointed and you will even be happy and today should be one of those days where you see a little positive joy.........his actions today.........don't look to much into the past or the future just live for today and the comforts you feel that day.........let your new relationship evolve, don't force, don't stop it........embrace what has been missing, if you keep yourself in a bitter place you will miss all the good........
Don't worry about the drinks I've been know to use a glass of wine or two as a anxiety med myself..............just don't let it confuse your good judgement, it will make you more emotional..............
jessi

Sorry, but someone who has had an A does not have the right to blame shift. You have suffered the trauma similar to a rape. Has he been raped lately?

Pa, nonono. Do NOT drink to mask your pain! Especially during the day! You need to keep your wits about you!

So your WH sent OW an NC letter, did he? I'm willing to bet that he is lying, which is something waywards are very good at doing. This is why we suggest that the betrayed spouse mail the letter.

When WH gets home tonight, you need to ask him to write that letter again. YOU review it, YOU approve it, and YOU mail it. NOT HIM.

jessitaylor - you're absolutely right, I'm letting my bitterness cause me to miss out on the little victories, and I need to work on that. And I asked him about switching phones for now, but apparently it's his work cell she's calling, so it can't just be switched. He turned it off.

wisertoday - halelujah! he just admitted on the phone that what he did was worse! (this is a small miracle)

maritalbliss - the drinking was a bad idea and won't happen again. Also, I asked him to write the letter (using my guidelines) and email it to her AND me. He thought the equivolent of this was to tell me what it said and just mail it to her (then delete the sent email because it was from his work account). I explained to him that this was in no way even remotely acceptable. He was mad at first, saying he was making a huge effort and I just wouldn't accept any of it. After we talked about it, he understood that I can't trust him right now, and I think he's ready for a do-over. (I hope.)

Pa, it's important that he handwrite the NC letter, for a couple of reasons:
1. The OW may not accept that he actually wrote it if it's an email.
2. Handwriting it is a show of commitment to YOU. It should be that important to him.

I guess I have a different opinion on the NC letter ~ I don't see the point if they are still working together. If they are still working together it will be a matter of time before the A reignites... I would personally focus on getting him to leave the job and lining up a Plan B in the event that he won't leave. Once he leaves, then demand the NCL.

Purple, I am worried about the drinking. Have you read up on Plan B yet? Women can suffer nervous breakdowns from Plan A. Dr Harley only recommends it for about 3 weeks, and I believe your situation is compounded by the fact that you have recently learned of three affairs.

While saving the M is a goal, what is more important is protecting your mental health by not enduring much more of this abuse if he will not make these changes to protect you. I have a post in mind for you written by a vet (SMB) on this, I will be back.

Written by sexymamabear:

Have you read this?

What are Plan A and Plan B?


Have you read Surviving an Affair? What other MB materials have you read?

You will have to become focused and completely self-controlled from this point on. You cannot let your emotions dictate your actions any longer. You cannot let your fear be the decision maker.

I recently spoke personally with Dr. Harley about Plan A and B. Here is what he emailed me:


I stayed in Plan A too long. I suffered much emotional trauma because of that. Although we have recovered our marriage, I dealt with many triggers and memories that I could have avoided by being in Plan B. The damage caused when a BS avoids Plan B makes recovery much more difficult if the WS ever does comes out of the fog.

You are allowing yourself to drown with the marriage. Your emotional health has suffered significantly. I understand this. I've been there, too. It is time for you to get yourself healthy. You are way overdue for Plan B.

Are you willing to go completely no contact with your husband until he agrees to meet your requirements for marital recovery? Are you willing to not see or talk to him even if he tries to contact you?

This is your best chance at healing yourself and giving your marriage the best chance to recover.

maritalbliss - I see your point, but honestly I'd rather he email it so she gets it immediately. She won't be back home for days (she's out of town for a conference).

susieQ - getting him out of that office is a huge priority for me. He has put a rush on some paperwork that must be completed before he can switch full-time to the other job, and we're hoping it will be finalized Monday so that we can get the ball rolling. I asked him about using his vacation time when OW comes back to the office, but he says he only has one day left (I don't want to think about where the other time has gone.). He tells me that he will be able to avoid her completely when she gets back and that he doesn't think she'll try to catch him in the office because they would be fired immediately if anyone suspected anything, but she's been calling and emailing him all day, and I think she's pretty desperate - I wouldn't be surprised if she makes a scene and they both have to pack up and go first thing Monday morning. I told him I don't want him to be there at all, but he insists that we need the money to support ourselves. (Jim mentioned that we probably had some savings for starting the new practice, but it's already invested, so we really do need the money right now.) He also is really hurt that I won't believe he's ready to end it with her. I've told him he's got a long road ahead of him before I can believe anything he says at all, but he just insists that he's "100% devoted" and loves me and won't speak to her again.

It's heart-wrenching to look at him and see that he's trying now (constantly updating me, coming home for lunch, taking me along for out-of-town work last night, trying to get me eating and sleeping well again...)but still have to say, "Sorry, pal, I don't beleive you."

And about the drinking - as I said, this is seriously, seriously not like me and won't happen again, but thanks for the concern. I am getting worried about my mental and physical health, though. I've had a couple of panic attacks and can't sleep or keep any food down (since Sunday evening). WH is really trying to take care of me on this front, but it's like my body has just gone completely haywire. Is this something you guys have experienced? Does it settle down after a while?

As far as plan B goes, I'm not clear on it yet, though I read about Plan A.

Okay, now I've done my homework on Plan B. I had already read a good deal of the info on this site, but have been having trouble concentrating and letting things sink in.

I only found out about the As beginning Sunday evening (learned about two that day, hinted at another the next day, learned for sure about two more yesterday). And I've not been good about keeping my emotions in check or being a good Plan A participant. I'd like to try it really in earnest before I go on to Plan B. Honestly, I cannot even imagine going no contact with WH. There's no way that would work with him. He'd be gone in an instant. And I definitely see what you're saying about saving myself while I have the chance, but to be truthful with you guys, I'd go down with the drowning child, and I'd probably choose to go down with the WH. I know it's nuts, but I can't see myself turning my back...

Please read up on Plan B, please. I have provided you two links in the last two days.

Please do not take on the responsibility of how he will have to manage this mess. Let him figure it out but make it clear that it is unacceptable for him to continue working with the OW.

After dday, I had heart palpitations and lost a lot of weight fast. I think this is a very normal reaction to extreme stress. Have you considered ADs? I believe Dr Harley does recommend this for BSs.

Good girl

This is completely normal. When I got here, my head was just spinning. I had to re-read and bookmark things and take notes. I had Plan A notes that I had to read several times I day because I couldn't even think straight. Re-read later. Hang in there.

[[[[PD}]]]]]

Exposure to OW husband at the very minimum. He will watch her like a hawk.

Hang in there.

Alright, I have a new problem (don't they ever stop coming???). I was going to call OW's husband, but I just learned that he is a jealous military sniper who has been in live combat, actually killed people, and suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder in which he occassionally has a 'break' from reality! I can't tell this man my WH has been sleeping with his wife! Has anyone had a situation similar to this? Where a wayward is put in physical danger if they are exposed?

I have been turning over in my head whether to expose to their boss as well. This company is notoriously bad for rumor-spreading and leaking personal information, so anything I tell him will be known by all. The bad thing here is that if my husband is ever to have a successful practice in our area again, the word can't get out about what he's done. It would undoubtedly kill his career. And moving away from here isn't an option because we have small children who are extremely close to their grandparents and great-grandparents and taking them away from these close relationships isn't something I want to do.

I'm so stressed. I feel stuck. I can't stand not telling OW's husband about this - he deserves to know the truth - but I can't risk WH's life. And I can't ruin a career that he's worked so hard to build in order to take care of our family.

On top of all of this, the OW came home early from her conference and went to the office yesterday to give WH some information she'd been gathering for a client of his. He said their only contact was in a room full of people who have been clueless about the A, but it's so frustrating that she keeps calling and is now stopping by.

Other than the inability to expose and the harasment from the OW, things are much better. Our relationship doesn't feel touch-and-go and this point. We're both working hard and reaching out to help each other along. We're talking more openly than we ever had about everything from emotional needs to hobbies to sex. I feel like we're really making progress, we just need to hurry and get him out of that office...

If you do not tell the OWH and HR you will never recover...if that is what you want then by all means do no expose the affair. You might as well divorce the guy because of how much pain you will be in knowing that they still work together.

But if you truly want to recover this marriage then the only thing that is stopping you is you telling these two crucial people. Really? You are going to let two people stop you to have a successful marriage?

Let me ask you this is his job more important than your marriage? If not then what are you afraid of? Because I guarantee the A will continue it will just go deeper underground, and you WILL lose your husband.

Right now you have nothing to lose.

And if it does ruin his career it will NEVER BE YOUR FAULT!! They need those consequences if they don't have any then he will have another affair in the future.

Let me ask you again is your husbands career more important then your marriage?

And don't worry about the OWH if you are worried about it that bad then get a restraining order against him, but I doubt there is any threat there at all. How did you find all this out? Did your husband tell you?

Carry on and expose this to her husband, don't look for reasons not to do what you must do, there is always a reason not to expose theirs is one reason to expose - your marriage. You do not know the OWH personally do not let hearsay or doubt get in the way.

Purple, my H's OW's fiance was a police officer and supposedly a very abusive mean man. If you can believe it, I almost felt sorry for the OW when I heard all about him. When I got here, I quickly found out this is VERY VERY common tale the OW tells.

Unless you have independently verified this, you cannot trust this information.

Besides, even if it IS true, he didn't deserve this treatment and abuse from your H and the OW and needs to know what is being done to him behind his back.

You are either going to FIND A WAY....or your either going to find an excuse.....

Lets be done with all these excuses shall we?

PA,

Your WH is happy because he is continuing the A with the OW...

The only version of what is actually going on at work is...

HIS version of what hapens at work.

His needs are being fulfilled happily by TWO women...

Why SHOULD HE NOT be happy???

He is perfectly content to continue to lie to you and throw you scraps if he can continue his A with the OW.

The only time HE is upset is when you threaten his contact with the OW.

What does that tell you?

Jim

BTW, no your H risked his job and OWH's anger all by himself. Do NOT shield your H from facing the consquences of his A.

PA, I have been reading MB threads for over a year. Honestly, almost every single OW's husband is a psycho maniac of some variety who is going to mutulate WH and possibly BS too. I would not give this much credence.

The info on OW's Husband didn't come from OW or WH, it's from a third party who is compltely removed from the situation. An old buddy of OW's H who was willing to talk way too openly about him with little in the way of my prodding. If I didn't love WH enough to keep him out of danger, then saving the marriage would be moot. I'm not trying to negate the good advice you guys are giving, I just feel this is one of those times when you have to veer slightly from the suggested regime. Maybe that's just denial, but that's how I see it right now. I will reevaluate in a few more days when hopefully my head will be somewhat clearer.

I also have another question that maybe someone can answer from experience. When I first learned about the A, I couldn't imagine ever wanting to be intimate with WH again. The thought was repulsive. But the next morning I was working through it and feeling needy, and of all the things I thought I'd never do, I slept with him - fewer than 12 hours after I found out. Afterwards, we felt better about working things out, but his frustration and guilt combined with my anger and hurt got in the way and we fought more.... then slept together again, felt better, fought, learned about more A's.... then slept together again. It's a ridiculous cycle that makes no sense to me, but honestly it's the best sex we've ever had. Is this part of meeting each others desperate need to feel connected at this point?? Has anyone done something similar? Did it help/hurt?

Jim, I really have thought about it from the standpoint you're showing me. It makes all the sense in the world. I did some more snooping, though, adn actually found messages he sent to another friend explaining that it was over with the OW and he should never have let it happen.

Planted evidence??

yes..sounds like he is being smarter and the A is going more underground. Unless he establishes NO CONTACT the A is still going.

PA, I think I've seen it referred to as hyper-bonding or something like that. It certainly helped WH & I bond and fall back in love.

Thanks, pokerface, I was worried I was just completely flinging myself in the wrong direction with that.

Does anyone have the quote about the path to recovery being a long and narrow path?

I am going to bow out of your thread. I won't help posters who refuse to expose to the OPS. That is inexcusable as he is a victim of your H and OW's affiar, just like you.

The risk of retaliation by the OPS is always there regardless of the mental history. The two cases I can think of that the BS attacked the OP in my four years here, there was no history of mental problems.

Besides, almost every time the BS doesn't expose to the OPS, the A ends up continuing (as you can see as the OW is still pursuing your H). So I don't see much hope for the A to end here. Good luck!

Pa, this is your marriage. We don't have to live it. You have to do the upfront work to end this A and it can be hard - we know that. But you are throwing away what is likely your most important tool: exposure to WH's employer and OW's H. I'm not sure how you're going to fare but will keep an eye on your thread. Good luck.

PA,

Do you really believe that OW would be carrying on with your WH if her own husband was as dangerous and unstable as you are led to believe? No way. She would be too afraid of him.

Wouldn't you want OW husband to tell you if he knew and you didn't. Would it not bother you to find out that everyone knew but YOU?

Do you think OW husband will never find out? Sooner or later he will find out - what then. Are you going to be fearful for WH life forever? Didn't you yourself become aware of WH affair from 3 yrs ago because an annon. person contacted you just recently? How do you know that this will happen to OW husband?

As things are, OW is free to pursue your WH at her own whim and as you know - she is persisting. Do you think WH is strong enough to resist? What does history show you?

OW husband needs to know not only because "it is the right thing to do" but also because you need him to be watching OW. He may even demand that she leave that job.

OW husband's deserves to know... just as you deserve to know.

\
You don't love your H very much if you are planning on protecting him from the consequences of his behavior. That is not "love," that is enabling. BIG DIFFERENCE. This is NOT one of those times where the advice is different. This affair is very unlikely to end if you don't tell the OW's H. You also have to consider that it is immoral to not tell him.

This man is being harmed behind his back by your husband and his wife. He can't very well protect himself if he doesn't know. He is much more likely to come after your H if he finds out on his own and you will have NO control over when that happens.

Your H will never recover from his wayward mentality until his victim is informed of his crime against him. That is part and parcel of his personal recovery.

Keep in mind, the OWH is the victim here, not your mean husband. He needs to be told the truth about the affair.

You hurt yourself, your husband, and the OM by keeping this secret from your H's victim. NO ONE benefits except the AFFAIR. And why would you want to protect the affair unless you want to become an accessory to the crime?

I will tell you, from experience with my own non-disclosure, that you are giving the OW your blessing to keep sleeping with your husband. You are also giving your H permission to keep hurting her H and children. You are aiding and abetting this abuse, my dear.