Marriage Builders
Posted By: Down_in_Az 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 05:59 PM
Hi all-

Three weeks ago, I found out about the A. My W went to Vegas with her sister and friends, and little did I know she was meeting someone she had been seeing for a couple of weeks. When she left, our marriage seemed fine (I did find out they were intimate once before Vegas), but when she returned, she was distant, angry and aggressive. It took me about 2 weeks to confirm the affair (she denied phone conversations as "just friends"), but one sister finally came clean.

Since, we have struggled to live in the same house. I bent over backwards to be the husband I wasn't (more cleaning, cutting back on work, helping anyway I couuld, basically freaking her out as a "new man"). But I was very clear all contact had to end, and it seemed it did, but that was not the case (I found a go-phone). It seemed we couldn't go a day without a huge blow up or arguement (all before I found this site). The stress and tension in the house was unbearable. She asked several times that I leave to give her time to work through her feelings. She was unsure if the marriage was worth salvaging, if she could ever be trusted, if she even wanted to be married. I know she is carrying immense guilt and shame, plus feelings for the man who is currently meeting some her emotional needs (ones I failed to me).

Two days ago, I agreed to leave for 2 weeks. We have two children, and explained the situation to them (obviously traumatic). I only asked she break it off with him, as the only condition of me leaving. They did not(he still calls her). When confronted, she says she keeps telling him it is over, but he still calls. He is from out of state, so I know no physical contact is happening, but contact is still difficult for me to take. I think it has gone underground, as she recently changed her email password.

I am in a place where I can't really sit down and discuss any of the information at this site with her. She is not open to recieving that from me. I have printed out information, highlighting points that I think are very key to our situation. I am thinking of giving that to her. Good idea?

I am lost as to how to proceeed. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

My particulars:

Me: 41
W: 32
Married: 7 years (together 11)
Children: 9 and 15 (from previous marriage, he is very hurt and angry about our seperation and blames her)
OM: Age, unkown. Out of state.
Length of A: 5-6 weeks
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:09 PM
Move back in.
Today.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:10 PM
Quote
OM: Age, unkown. Out of state.

Married? Girlfriend? Occupation?

Unacceptable to not know details.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:12 PM
Why did your first marriage end?
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:13 PM
First thing:

1.) MOVE BACK HOME AND DO NOT MOVE OUT AGAIN. She asked you to move out so that she could carry on her AFFAIR, and for no other reason. You are enabling her AFFAIR by moving out. Start packing immediately and move back home, no warning.

2.) Read up on exposure. This is how you will kill the affair. You cannot even think about recovery until the A is dead. Exposure is the most powerful weapon in killing the A.

3.) Read up on Plan A and begin Plan A'ing your a*se off.

Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:15 PM
Perfect that Pep is here ~ click on the link in her sig line on the Carrot and Stick of Plan A. That will explain exposure and Plan A.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:16 PM
I was not married previously. She was. She was married young (18) and was not happy.

So, I if I move back in, she will obviously be very, very PO'd. Good chance she leaves. That is fine?

Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:18 PM
You can work a better Plan A if she stays with you in the home. If she decides to leave the kids need to stay with you in the home.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
I was not married previously. She was. She was married young (18) and was not happy.

So, I if I move back in, she will obviously be very, very PO'd. Good chance she leaves. That is fine?

Was she married when you met?

If she leaves you cannot stop her but she does not take the children or anything out of the marital home except her own personal belongings.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
I was not married previously. She was. She was married young (18) and was not happy.

So, I if I move back in, she will obviously be very, very PO'd. Good chance she leaves. That is fine?
You can't tie her to a chair, so if she must go, then she goes. But the kids stay with you.

Was she unfaithful during her first marriage?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:27 PM
She was divorcing when we met. Not unfaithful that I know of.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
She was divorcing when we met. Not unfaithful that I know of.

So she was still married...which means yes, she was unfaithful and you were the OM in her first marriage.
Posted By: RMX Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:36 PM
She was still married.

Move back in. Now.

She wants to leave, then SHE moves out.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
She was divorcing when we met. Not unfaithful that I know of.
You were romancing a married woman, Down. That put the building of your relationship on rocky soil.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:40 PM
Hold on, need to be clear. I knew her when she was married. She worked where I work. We did NOT date until after she was divorced.
Posted By: reading Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:44 PM
So the children are hers from the first marriage?

If you move back and she leaves, she is in her means to take them with her.

Still, move back in.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Hold on, need to be clear. I knew her when she was married. She worked where I work. We did NOT date until after she was divorced.

You just said she was divorcing when you met.

Did she leave her first H because of you?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:46 PM
One child (15 boy) is hers from previous marriage.

9 yo Daughter is ours.

15 year old is very, very angry at her. When we talked about me leaving for a couple of weeks, he turned to her and said: "You did this to me, now you are doing this to my sister".

More details on OM: He lives in New York, was visiting Arizona for a study he was doing (he is a sociologist). She tells me he is actually out of country for 2 years on an assignment (I am fairly certain he works for the State Department). He is not married. Not sure his age.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:48 PM
OK, want to be clear on the "met" comment. We worked together. She was divorcing her husband at that time. She moved into a place of her own, was divorced BEFORE we went on any dates or became romantically involved.

I am sorry that I used the term met incorrectly.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:55 PM
One question I have. Is it common for the offending spouse to make the following comments:

- I am not sure I want the marriage to work
- I just don't have feelings for you right now, and I don't know if I ever will. I need this space to work that through
- The marriage has been broken for a while, but I just never spoke up (much to my surprise and everyone we know)

All... I know I am being naive. But that is why I am here, for cold hard truth and advice.

I will move back in tonight.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
OK, want to be clear on the "met" comment. We worked together. She was divorcing her husband at that time. She moved into a place of her own, was divorced BEFORE we went on any dates or became romantically involved.

I am sorry that I used the term met incorrectly.

Ok, thank you for the clarification.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
One question I have. Is it common for the offending spouse to make the following comments:

- I am not sure I want the marriage to work
- I just don't have feelings for you right now, and I don't know if I ever will. I need this space to work that through
- The marriage has been broken for a while, but I just never spoke up (much to my surprise and everyone we know)

All... I know I am being naive. But that is why I am here, for cold hard truth and advice.

I will move back in tonight.

This is all straight from the wayward script. We hear this all the time, from every wayward. None of it is shocking, in fact it's getting a bit boring ~ you'd think they would come up with something original, LOL.

Yes, move back home immediately. When she screams at you and asks WTH you are doing, answer "Hi honey, I'm home! Would you like a beer?".

Do not get into an argument with her over it. Your motto is "I want to save our M. I do not want a D. This is my home and I am not leaving again."

Read up on Plan A and exposure pronto. You need to expose in order to kill the A. Once that is done you can attempt recovery, but not until then.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:02 PM
Yes it is. Its like they all read from the same script. Don't let it get to you. Its called Fog babble. Read up on the articles here and get a copy of Surviving An Affair as soon as you can.

http://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Aff...UTF8&qid=1305140521&sr=8-1-spell
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:10 PM
Thanks... it is just hard to hear that someone you love (and have loved) has no feelings for you. And they stopped on a dime (Friday before she left for Vegas, we joked about finding time to be intimate). When she came back Monday, the marriage was a wreck and she was ready to bail.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:18 PM
It was quite a shock when I heard it from my WW. It was like the bottom dropped out of my world. The next day she was almost like her old self. Then a few hours later it was fog babble again. She will go back and forth like this. Its not what she says that matters. Its what she does that counts.

Right now she is pining way for the OM. She will get angry when you move back in. But it is your house, your bed, and your children. Man up and reclaim your territory.

Set some boundaries when you arrive. Women don't like wimpy men. Tell her that the OM is never allowed in your house or near your children. Tell her that you love her and are going to fight for your marriage.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:22 PM
Thanks Phrog. Sometimes you get so lost in trying to do everything "right", you don't do anything right at all.

Our main issue when I was in the house was daily battles about the OM. I tried to point that out to her, but she is not seeing it. It looks like the key to that is staying 100% calm, focusing on love deposits and staying away from Love busters.

Sleeping in seperate rooms normal too? She oftened slept on the couch when I was in the house.
Posted By: reading Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:23 PM
The script is so very true to form.

Since the youngest is your bio child, the child stays with you if she leaves when you go home. Sounds like the 15 year old will want to stay too. Let it be your W's battle getting him to go with her if she wants it.

Your relationship time frame shows that you likely lived together for a few years since your child is older than the marriage. That sets up what Dr. Harley refers to as the 'renters' mentality and your W has not communicated her lack of needs being met and is looking for a new 'landlord' with a better pad to rent from.

You can study the articles on this site and read the book mentioned earlier. They will all help you collect your thoughts and actions.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:24 PM
- I am not sure I want the marriage to work
- I just don't have feelings for you right now, and I don't know if I ever will. I need this space to work that through
- The marriage has been broken for a while, but I just never spoke up (much to my surprise and everyone we know)

All Wayward babble taken right out of the cheaters handbook.

Yep grab a 6 pack and prop your feet up in your lazy chair in your home. Announce "IM HOME" with a big smile.
Its time for war are you ready for that? If you want to recover your M it is a war. Make no mistake ITS WAR!
You have to find out more about this OM. Exposure should be the first goal and it should go down like Pearl Harbor did. A Complete surprise and no mercy. But OM Job and friends is vital to Exposure. INTEL in WAR time is vital.
Read up my man your in the fight of your life.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:24 PM
Don't discuss the OM (except what I wrote above) or your relationship with WW at this point. It will just piss her off. Move back into the bed room. If she wants to sleep apart, she can move to the couch. She is the one committing adultery. There needs to be a corrective for her actions.

Don't try to lecture her.

There is a Buddhist teaching about detachment. This is a different meaning than you are used to. It does not mean to loose your love for WW.

Sit down, close your eyes, hold out both hands palms up. In one hand imagine holding you worst fear: her leaving you for OM. In the other hand imagine holding the best outcome: WW dropping the POSOM and loving you unconditionally. Each hand holds a very emotional state for you. Now you have to imagine how you feel walking a path between both hands. You are detached from each outcome. You will feel calmer and be able to think better in your current situation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:27 PM
DIZ, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am very sorry you are in this predicament. The things your wife is saying are very typical. I would not pay any attention to her words.

Rather, develop a strategic plan to save your marriage. And yes this is very salvageable. The first step is to move home without warning and refuse to leave without a court order and an armed sheriff.

Next, expose her affair wide and far. Everyone should be told, all your parents, children, family and friends. Find the om's Facebook page today and copy and paste his friends list into a word doc. Send his friends an exposure letter. (we have samples) if the OM is a state dept employee, you might want to expose to his employer too. Exposure is the greatest weapon you have against the affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:31 PM
In the meantime, you should DEMAND that she end her affair with the OM. Tell her this will lead to divorce and if forced, will file on grounds of adultery and have the OM subpoenaed into court. She would have to turn over her emails and texts and cell phone records in discovery.

When you expose to her family and friends, ask them all to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:32 PM
Expose affiar to the kids as well? Really?

You have to understand my reluctance to the exposure part. Is there a very likely chance this drives a stake in the relationship and it never recovers? Help me to see past the WW getting so pissed they never forgive.

You have to see how mad she was at her sister for telling me. smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
One child (15 boy) is hers from previous marriage.

9 yo Daughter is ours.

15 year old is very, very angry at her. When we talked about me leaving for a couple of weeks, he turned to her and said: "You did this to me, now you are doing this to my sister".

More details on OM: He lives in New York, was visiting Arizona for a study he was doing (he is a sociologist). She tells me he is actually out of country for 2 years on an assignment (I am fairly certain he works for the State Department). He is not married. Not sure his age.

I bet this is mostly lies. You really need to do a background check on him NOW. I bet is married.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Expose affiar to the kids as well? Really?

You have to understand my reluctance to the exposure part. Is there a very likely chance this drives a stake in the relationship and it never recovers? Help me to see past the WW getting so pissed they never forgive.

You have to see how mad she was at her sister for telling me. smile

The kids should not be lied to in order to cover up her crimes. This is pertinent information about their lives. They should be told all about the OM and encouraged to ask their mother to explain her sleazy, selfish behavior. Lying to kids is poison and only teaches them dishonesty.

Her anger is irrelevant. The goal here is to save your marriage not avoid the anger of a tyrannical bully.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:41 PM
<p>Dr. Harley on telling the children:</p>
<p>
Quote
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur. </p>
<p>An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults. <br>
here </p>
<p>
Quote
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home. <br>___________________________________ <br>A:  As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what. </p>
<p>When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
</p>
<p><br>
Quote
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
  here</p>
<p>
Quote
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under) </p>
<p>Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse). <br>
here</p>
<p>
Quote
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas. </p>
<p>The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future. </p>
<p>The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!). </p>
<p>Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him. </p>
<p>It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
</p>
Posted By: curious53 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:42 PM
Why don't you call the Harleys?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:46 PM
DIZ, look at it this way. Your wife is an addict who is high on an affair. If she is angry it isnonly because you have successfully interfered in her affair. That is a WIN, not a loss. I used to get angry when my H wouldn't let me go drunk driving but that was the right thing to do. That is where your focus needs to be.
Posted By: reading Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:46 PM
We all question telling the kids the truth BUT I have never read where it was the wrong thing to do. The children are upset about it but appreciate being told why the family is fractured.
My own included. It was tough telling them but they have a reason for the huge mess our family deals with vs a vague notion.

And, you tell the children when she is not there. You matter of factly say what is going on. If she is there, she will gloss over it or downright lie or scare them with her reaction to the truth coming out (her hostility or etc).
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:47 PM
Yep to the kids too. Why lie about whats happening to innocent children? Be honorable and HONEST. Let her be known for what she is, you havent done anything to deserve this. NO spouse has.
Who cares if shes pissed, you can survive pissed. You CANT survive a WS facilitating back and forth. When the A is exposed many die instantly. Then shes left with reality and no cake to eat. Plan A shows her she can love you. But while the A exists you have no chance at all. KILL IT DEAD> DO NOT BE AFFRAID! Fear has no place here MAN UP. This OM is trying to take your family away from you and your helping him. Doesnt that piss YOU off? Make yourself his worse nightmare. Hunt him down and be relentless. Saddle up the horses boys its time for a man hunt. If you fail in killing this A you will likely lose your WW. Forgive you for what telling the truth to everyone? Who cares if she forgives for now. KILL THE A FIRST its whats taking her away from you NOW.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:47 PM
My exWW was the minister of a large Christian church. She was having an affair with a married congregant. I ended up in divorce because I did not expose. The goal for exposure is to bust up the affair.

She will be madder than a wet cat when you expose. She will say some cruel things. Remember you are in the fight of your life. Get on your flak jacket and charge in.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:53 PM
Lying to kids is about as mean as rearranging the furniture in the home of a blind person. You are rearranging the reality of their lives. Kids are not morons and they are not made happy or secure by illusions and falsehoods. In fact, it is terrifying to a child when your words don't line up with reality. That is how kids end up confused and full of self doubt about their own perceptions.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:55 PM
P.s. If you don't tell them the truth, your wife will tell them lies and screw with their heads.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 07:59 PM
Understand one thing. You have a POSOM trying to be your dear daughters daddy and your wifes lover. If that doesnt piss you off enough to scream it from the top of her work building I dont know what will.
But for me if anyone threatens my family they had better be ready for the wrath I will unleash on them. It will be nasty , calculating, cruel and swift. I will have no mercy. Thats the mind set you had better take. The affair is the enemy not your WW.
For her its plan A with NC firmly stated and a plan of recovery as a condition to the M recovery.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:00 PM
Does anyone have recomendations on the best background check site? I have done preliminary, but not much more.

Thanks!
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:04 PM
http://www.intelius.com/
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:04 PM
Go over to the operation investigate forum here and find the thread about PI's. It is a natioanal register of PIs and you can find one in your area. Typically, a background check has cost members $300-350. Can you find this bum on Facebook? What about his phone #? do you have that? If so you can go to white pages.com and do a reverse lookup.
Posted By: reading Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:11 PM
Yet another
http://pipl.com/
Posted By: hope3343 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Does anyone have recomendations on the best background check site? I have done preliminary, but not much more.

Thanks!

www.spokeo.com www.pipl.com www.peekyou.com If you have a state that he currently lives in that will narrow your search. Once you find who he is then you do a www.whitepages.com. and that usually tells you who lives in the household with them.

Also at this time do not try to show her this site. She is not ready to work on the marriage. expose expose expose. I told my DD17 when she was 15 that her father was having an affair. She appreciated my honesty instead of the pack of lies he was telling her.

Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:15 PM
I find search engines and a few phone calls can do wonders. But there are plenty of places to gather Intel. Wish we had a way to help the search but PMs are disabled.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:19 PM
What are PM's?
Posted By: hope3343 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
What are PM's?

Private messages
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:28 PM
Private messages between posters.I have a few nifty tools from my Real Estate web sites that runs verifications from several sources. I wish I could share. My horse is saddled up and Im ready to ride but I have nobody to chase smile
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:32 PM
I have a name and a phone number. I have done several searches, but nothing conclusive.

Why are PM's disabled?
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:39 PM
To prevent inappropriate communication between posters. You can post you e-mail address. Then delete it a few hours later.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:46 PM
I think for safety as a few people over the years harassed others. Maybe but not sure.
Name and numbers are a good start. Keep searching. Try many variations in search engines EX: name and city, name and social groups, name and social networks. Name and govt job keywording. Keyword everything you can think of.
You may have to call him yourself and play friend. I would. I would call him and tell him hey man shes all yours crap and it will give me more golf time etc etc. Befriend him for intel if you have too then smack him right between the eyes with his own divulged info. You would be surprised if approached right what he may tell you himself.But make this a last ditch effort only.
Vindictively cool and calculating.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by PhrogDriver
To prevent inappropriate communication between posters. You can post you e-mail address. Then delete it a few hours later.
Correction, if I may, PhrogDriver:

Do NOT post your email address in a post. The internet is a weird animal that is able to pull up things in a google search that you might not want the world to see. I've googled MB to pull up sections of Dr. H's writings, and have seen posts come up. You don't want a post to come up with your email on it.

In addition, you don't want personal info that can be tied to you in a post, for example: your real name, address, names of APs or kids, etc.

If you want to exchange email addresses, notify JustUss2@aol.com, the site administrator. JustUss can take care of the exchange for you.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:54 PM
Okay I stand corrected. I'm a newbie, Down in AZ. The experienced posters will guide you in the right direction.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 08:59 PM
Be glad to help if u send him your Addy. I hate OMs with passion. Hate hate hate. Loath. Did I say Hate????? smile
Posted By: hope3343 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
I have a name and a phone number. I have done several searches, but nothing conclusive.

Why are PM's disabled?

If the phone is a land line you can do a reverse lookup and get an address on whitepages.com
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 09:06 PM
Let us know how your research and the the moving in went.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
One question I have. Is it common for the offending spouse to make the following comments:

- I am not sure I want the marriage to work
- I just don't have feelings for you right now, and I don't know if I ever will. I need this space to work that through
- The marriage has been broken for a while, but I just never spoke up (much to my surprise and everyone we know)

All... I know I am being naive. But that is why I am here, for cold hard truth and advice.

I will move back in tonight.

Not trying to be glib here, but I think there is some kind of "guidebook for cheaters" that is issued once you decide to have an A. I really don't know of any situation where that (or some variation) has not been said.

Good on ya for moving back in. I thought state department jobs were in DC?

CV
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Thanks... it is just hard to hear that someone you love (and have loved) has no feelings for you. And they stopped on a dime (Friday before she left for Vegas, we joked about finding time to be intimate). When she came back Monday, the marriage was a wreck and she was ready to bail.

Down,

Don't be so sure. She *may still* have feelings for you. One of the things an A does with some people is bury stuff. There is so much crud that is dumped on top of the marriage because of the necessity to lie to keep and justify the A that the truth gets buried. Now what the truth is in your case, I am not sure, just don't discount the fact that the lies have consumed her mind and this fog is really confusion to the truth.

CV
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Expose affiar to the kids as well? Really?

You have to understand my reluctance to the exposure part. Is there a very likely chance this drives a stake in the relationship and it never recovers? Help me to see past the WW getting so pissed they never forgive.

You have to see how mad she was at her sister for telling me. smile

I probably did exposure wrong, but it worked for us... We told the kids together. Ours were 17, 15, and 14.

I told the kids that "Mom and I are having some problems, there was an affair". Then My wife explained to them what she had done and with whom. My kids were furious (you really have to know my daughter) for months and months. But you know what? They love their mom, still did. It is important they know, it is important that you stay and work through this with them. They will be shattered, but in a different way.

You often don't hear of what to do with the kids, but sit them down and talk to them. Be there for them. This boy seems to look to you as dad. Be dad to them both, and be mom until mom is no longer FUBAR'd.

My kids now love and respect my wife, not because of what she did, but because of what she is doing to repair.

CV
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 09:58 PM
CV, you and Beverly did fine with your exposure to the kids. Beverly told them the truth. And that's huge to kids.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 10:07 PM
Kids? Hate to be a Dr. Philler/Dr. Laura-er, but truer words can't be spoken (paraphrase): "Kids have an uncanny ability to make any problem in mom's and dad's life THEIR FAULT". That is, unless and until you tell them the TRUTH. It would be enormously unfair and cruel to allow them to wonder what they might have done wrong...regardless of age, and they will carry that with them for. ev. er.

They KNOW things are very wrong already, right? They are going to suffer for a time (until you kill this A and get back on track). You can't shield them from the pain, but you sure can be the one to assure that they don't ever blame themselves. Suffering x 100. They are going to be angry. Don't be a witness to them to being quietly angry with themselves.

Hey Down. Ya home yet?





Posted By: SusieQ Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I probably did exposure wrong, but it worked for us... We told the kids together. Ours were 17, 15, and 14.

It sounds like it worked out for you two... but just for any lurkers out there, Dr Harley has said on his show for the BS to expose alone without the WS. It usually isn't a good idea.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/11/11 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I probably did exposure wrong, but it worked for us... We told the kids together. Ours were 17, 15, and 14.

It sounds like it worked out for you two... but just for any lurkers out there, Dr Harley has said on his show for the BS to expose alone without the WS. It usually isn't a good idea.

Yeah. and I want to reaffirm that too. Follow the MB path.

CV
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:21 AM
Home now, found more incriminating evidence they are still in contact. Exposure starts tonight.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Home now, found more incriminating evidence they are still in contact. Exposure starts tonight.

Good job moving home! Ok, to whom do you plan on exposing tonight. What is your plan? Tell us who and we will help you pull this off in a strategic way.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:53 AM
Who should I expose tonight? Threaten to tell the kids? I tried confront him (calling via skype). I have email, do I email him?

Do I start calling people tonight? Threaten to call? Email people? Help...
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:55 AM
NEVER threaten exposure.
You do exposure ... "shock & awe" style.
As a surprise.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Because the original is locked in the archives .... and most people only quote the first bit .... Here it is.

(from 2006)


Quote
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

And there is more ....


Quote
Plan A is NOT a decision you and your adulterous spouse make together !!!

Plan A is a tool for the betrayed spouse to implement in order to try and stop the affair ~and~ attract the adulterous spouse BACK to the marriage

do NOT discuss this tool with the adulterous spouse

Plan A is YOUR weapon against infidelity !!! The adulterous spouse is ~for~ infidelity, not against it .... be careful NOT to reveal your secret weapon of Plan A !!!

and more ....


Quote
Stop lovebusting behaviors.

from the site:

Quote:



Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty






I think it is impossible to completely stop ALL ~LB~ behaviors during the initial SHOCK of discovering your spouse is/was unfaithful

having said that

if the affair continues

once you start Plan A ... YOU must be in control of your emotional outbursts

ASK the board for HELP to do this

and some more ....


Quote
Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.


time to take your OWN inventory

compile a list of things you historically contribute to the marriage that make the marriage work .... and do MORE of this

don't make announcements about what you are going to do ... just take action

DEMONSTRATE what an awesome spouse/contrubutor to the marriage YOU are

.... continuing Plan A ....


Quote
Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

re-visit the emotional needs questionairre on this site

if your spouse is ACTIVELY continuing their affair after discovery ... try to get the information about his/her emotional needs indirectly

take the questionairre answering ~as if~ you were your adulterous spouse

then take the top 3 needs and get a plan together to fill their most important needs ~when possible~

caution is required if your spouse scores high on sexual fulfillment as their emotional need ... if your spouse is sleeping with someone else YOU need to enforce the use of condom protection ... and even that is not foolproof protection you won't be exposed to a disease

GET TESTED for STDs every so often if you are having sex with a still cheating spouse

MOST people in an affair do NOT use protection <~~~ is's a fact you must face !

and ....


Quote
Offering forgiveness and understanding.

By this I mean .... suggesting to the confused foggy affair-addicted spouse that there is HOPE for the marriage even though what they are doing is awful ... there is a map leading to home

Often their thinking is thus: "It's too late now. I've done too much damage ... my spouse could never forgive me, so I might as well continue with the affair."

You, the sane spouse, need to squash that belief that they can never be forgiven for what they have done.
You do not need to forgive them right away, but offer them the hope of a future where all is forgiven.

You can word it something like this:

All of us do things we regret. When I think of some of my past mistakes, I am extremely grateful for having been forgiven by those I've hurt. I want to be in the position to offer you that same grace. I have been forgiven, so I understand what it feels like to be in a position where you hope forgiveness is possible. It is possible.

continuing ...


Quote
Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.


Exposure is your most effective tool to end the affair !

It is important to SNOOP ~before~ exposure.

There are ways to snoop in order to gather evidence. If you have questions about snooping tactics ... go to the general Questions infidelity forum and begin a thread titled something like: ~~~> I need to snoop. Teach me everything you know!

OK ... once you've snooped and you know there is an affair ... and your spouse refuses to end the affair relationship ... you will hear:

"It's only a friendship."
"You are too controling."
"I love you but I am not in love with you."
"You are too suspicious."
"You are crazy."
"Our marriage never worked."
"I've never been happy."
"Our marriage was a mistake from the start."

TIME for exposure.

WAT has a great exposure thread ... read it

Exposure is NOT to the 2 infidels ... they already know they are in an affair!

You expose to the other betrayed spouse first.

You expose to your family as well as your spouse's family (if appropriate)
You expose to work, or neighbors, or others .... ASK the board for help regarding who to expose to

HOW you expose is important

wording something like:

I am saddened to tell you my sweetie is having an affair. It's been going on for (length of time).He/she refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my sweetie, please do what you can to get him/her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

don't forget these words

swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

you NEVER tell your adulterous spouse you are going to expose

you just do it

more ....


Quote
Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Exposure makes the infidel furious rant2

stay calm
breathe

no one can stay furious forever ... being furious is exhausting ... consumes a lot of energy ... let the furious infidel fume and exhaust his/her self

YOU stay cool cool

You will hear:

"That's it. We are never going to stay married after what YOU did."
"I am moving out now, thanks to you."
"You are getting OP in trouble at home."
"Now our kids will have a broken home thanks to you."


blah blah blah

You respond to all the raging comments: I am still holding out hope for our marriage.

You stay calm

You don't argue

You don't explain

You do not preach

You do not educate

~and~ you do NOT apologize for standing up for truth and marriage and keeping your family intact

YOU calmly re-state your belief that there is hope for the marriage ....

if things get out of hand ... excuse yourself and go for a walk or a drive ...

remember ... exposure makes the already foggy spouse act insane ... but it is temporary

.....


Quote
Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.


Plan A is often misunderstood as "acting nice"

excuse me acting "nice' in the face of an affair makes me want to puke puke

Plan A is taking control of one's self ...it is NOT "acting nice" ~as if~ there was no infidelity eating away at your family .... infidelity hurts like battery acid poured on your skin

am I right?

heII yes I am right

so you scared and panicky betrayed ~~~> SPEAK UP

tell the truth

"This affair hurts me. This affair is going to destroy our family. Let's get help."

If your spouse does something really thoughtless ... SPEAK UP.

"What you just said (did) hurts me terribly."

"I feel wounded by your affair."

"My heart aches for the love we used to share."


But be careful ... don't get needy or whiney or weepy ... those are love-busters

it's a fine line between telling the truth about what hurts ... and staying away from LB behaviors

ASK for help from the board

if you are unsure if what you are doing is correct... examine how much self control you have at any given moment ... and if you are feeling in control of yourself ... you are probably right on the money !

if you feel yourself losing control ... step away and re-group

>>>>>>


Quote
Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

You never were a perfect spouse. You never will be.

You are part of the equation of your marriage environment .. but you have no power to cause your spouse to choose an affair

The freshly wounded often look at themselves and blame themselves for their spouse's choice to go outside the marriage....

stop

Sure, this is an opportunity to take your own inventory ... but NEVER accept blame for your spouse's choice to have an affair

The issue of not meeting the emotional needs of the adulterous spouse ~before~ the affair began is NOT a reason to choose infdelity

not ever

You are responsible for your choices, not for the choices of your spouse

relax
breathe

~~~~~~
Quote
Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

If we experience no consequences when we mess up ... there is very little motivation for us to change our wrong behaviors that have become a habit

do the infidel a favor

do not stand inbetween them and their consequences

show respect for the infidel by allowing them to feel whatever their behaviors have earned them

be it
shame
embarrasment
fear

whatever they have earned

let it be

unpleasant consequences are what motivates changing habitual bad behaviors

let it roll


******


Quote
A very very important part of Plan A !!!

That is some serious self-pampering .... which may include but is not limited to:

>manicures/pedicures

>dates with friends

>hire a sitter so YOU can have fun

>relaxing your usually busy schedule

>say "No, I can't do that now." when you are running out of energy

>pray and ask for spiritual and emotional support from someone wise in your circle of trust

>buy all new sheets

>paint the bedroom

>treat yourself to something sexy to wear

>try a new hairstyle

>get contact lenses or Kewl new glasses

>glam up

>buy concert/theater tickets

>exercise

Self pampering will keep your Taker happy for awhile which IMPROVES your Plan A

~~~~~~~

and finally, This is an old post of mine ... written in 2002... I was trying to put the "doormat of Plan A" issue to rest .... in my own mind. Now you can look at what I came up with, back then.


Quote
Looking back ... I can see I worked myself through a very awkward "plan A" ....
although I never heard of plan A until years into recovery and I started poking around this site.

Looking back ... I can see my efforts to become differentiated ... although I did not read Schnarch's Passionate Marriage until years into recovery.

Plan A is very much complementary to Schnarch's ideas of differentiation.

Developing a positive identity within the context of a marriage struggling to overcome infidelity.

Developing a strong sense of self-worth that is valid both within and outside the boundaries of the marriage.

I can NOW see plan A as a path to greater self worth and NOT necessarily as a plan to "win back" the heart and mind of the infidel ... although that might happen.

It is a plan to differentiate myself and identify myself as a worthy person apart from the circumstances of the marriage relationship.

Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage!

Plan A says : "I can hold onto my better self under the worst of circumstances".

Schnarch says: "We develop a contingent identity based on a 'self-in-relationship'. Because our identity depends on the relationship, we may demand that our partner doesn't change so that our identity won't either."

Then ... comes the grenade of infidelity tossed into the marriage and the entire fusion of identities is blown apart!

The aftermath of the grenade then boils down to this question ....

WHO THE HECK AM I ... AND ... WHO THE HECK ARE YOU?

And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.

Plan A says and demonstrates to OURSELVES: I am not some weak pathetic person deserving to be abandoned or cheated. I am demonstrating decent and loving behaviour. I am worthy of love and devotion. ... If the infidel notices .... double bonus points. If not, I become better differentiated along the way ... and I can see my strengths despite terrible and hurtful circumstances.

Once I become more fully differentiated and have stable and accurate self-worth (after the grenade) ... I am then in the position to identify
healthy choices.

I can honestly say that I will be a sensational woman within this marriage... or after this marriage terminates.

I think I finally understand what I went through. I understand that I am the better woman for it. I understand my spouse is the better man for it.

That is a powerful message to myself.

The anxiety that floods the betrayed spouse is the perceived loss of identity .

Self worth and a differentiated identity is the harvest of plan A .

I think I get it now.

Best to all of you travelers on this journey!

And now, I can bookmark this thread instead of searching for it every time...
kiss
Posted By: CaliSun Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:07 AM
Oh lord, my husband said those exact words when I discovered his affair! We had a fantastic marriage, yet he said he wasn't happy. Well, if he wasn't happy no one got the memo! It was a shock to me, friends, family and kids. It is their way of justifying their behavior. Be prepared to hear them say those horrible words over and over after exposure. It will get worse before it gets better...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Who should I expose tonight? Threaten to tell the kids? I tried confront him (calling via skype). I have email, do I email him?

Do I start calling people tonight? Threaten to call? Email people? Help...

Don't do anything tonight but quietly put together a list of exposure targets to call and email TOMORROW. Don't ever threaten to expose because that would be giving away your game plan. Don't tell your wife your plans. Be pleasant and say nothing to give away your plan.

I WOULD sit the kids down alone tonight and tell them all about the affair. Let them know you are home now to protect your family.

Don't email the OM.
Posted By: CaliSun Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:11 AM
As a side note, in my State, Oregon, the judge does frown upon exposing to children. Grrr...oh well, too late smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by TexasSun
As a side note, in my State, Oregon, the judge does frown upon exposing to children. Grrr...oh well, too late smile

Anyone who would use that as an excuse to lie to children is a poor example of a parent and is guilty of dereliction of duty. We parents don't answer to judges for our parenting; we are ultimately responsible for our children and how they are raised.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:19 AM
Down,

I know you want to do something right now. But the best advice is to slow down and come up with a plan. Read what pepperband and Melody wrote above. Here is the link to Wat's guidelines.

WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses

Without a plan your going into this fight blind. Follow the advice of the experts and they will guide you through this. Get some dinner, talk to your kids and then try to get some sleep tonight.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:46 AM
Amen. I'd like to see that in court. Anywhoo...

Down, stick with the advice here, OK? Take a breather, and plan for tomorrow. No need to go off half-cocked. Better to plan and calmly follow through. You have great advice here, but hear it as best you can rationally and calmly, OK? ASAP means just that...do it right, and do it quickly. That doesn't mean this very minute in a frantic way. Take a sec and maybe get a good nights rest and be fresh on Thursday.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:08 AM
Phrog and I crossed over. Agree! Get some sleep, my friend. Tomorrow you go to war.
Posted By: AheadOfTheCurve Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:38 AM
DIZ,

If you're not sure you have enough info on the POSOM, here's another website to try: Net Detective .

It's not free ($29.00), but it gave me a wealth of information that turned out to be crucial.

Hang in there, and listen to the vets on this site -- they know what they're talking about.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:54 AM
Can I kick in with NeverGuessed's BH Survival Kit?

1 - Put a keylogger on any computer she uses that you can access.
2 - Put Flexispy on her cell-phone.
3 - Put a VAR in her car, or any room she would use to take private calls.
4 - Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it with you, and "on" at all times in her presence (see Note 1 below).
5 - Assemble an extensive and complete e-address list of all people with leverage on your WW - parents, siblings (sisters are very good), friends, clergy, co-workers, sorority sisters, everybody. This will be the distribution list for nuclear exposure.
6 - Make a list of all joint financial accounts. Anticipate moving half the funds from all of them into pre-established private accounts at exposure.
7 - Inventory all assets and the title to each - home, cars, etc.
8 - Research the divorce laws of your jurisdiction, and the relevance of proof of adultery thereon.
9 - Take care of yourself physically - eat right, drink water, exercise.
10 - Take solace that you're in contact with a lot of folks who have been through where you are now.


Note 1 - Beware the bogus "domestic violence" complaint. Never raise your voice to WW. Try to have reliable witnesses at hand during times of stressful interaction, OR leave the situation.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 12:20 PM
AZ you doing ok bud? I read you have some more solid stuff, thats good. Glad your back home. How did she take that?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:17 PM
OK update all.

I moved back in. Started planning for exposure. Found out a lot more about him (he is state department, stationed in Norway). I emailed and told to cease contact with WW. Called embassy switchboard and confirmed he was there.

This morning, it hit the fan. He called a friend of hers who called her. She is pissed beyond measure. Plans to move out today. Can't believe I confronted POSOM and risked his career.

So, I let her leave and we stay separated? Maybe she calms down and doesn't want a divorce? Right now, the big D seems like a 99.9% likelihood.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:27 PM
Stay in the house. Tell her that the kids stay in the house with you. Ignore the the 'D' talk. Work on your plan 'A'. You can plan A, even if she moves out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
OK update all.

I moved back in. Started planning for exposure. Found out a lot more about him (he is state department, stationed in Norway). I emailed and told to cease contact with WW. Called embassy switchboard and confirmed he was there.

This morning, it hit the fan. He called a friend of hers who called her. She is pissed beyond measure. Plans to move out today. Can't believe I confronted POSOM and risked his career.

So, I let her leave and we stay separated? Maybe she calms down and doesn't want a divorce? Right now, the big D seems like a 99.9% likelihood.

ok, Down, all you did was tip your hand to the OM. You didn't do anything to hurt him. Expose this affair today to everyone and get your exposures done before they pre-empt you. Call up her parents, family, friends, tell them about the affair and ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. Expose to anyone else who is influential in your circle of family and friends.

Tell your kids. And most of all, don't allow your wife to leave with the kids or any furniture without a court order. GO TO WALMART THIS MORNING AND GET A VAR TO CARRY IN YOUR POCKET TO RECORD YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH HER.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:30 PM
Pissed is ok. I hope you told her you didnt give a rats butt about POSOM career. If I was you I would continue to damage it all I could. He certainly didnt care about you when he was with a married woman.
Ok time to nuke the A since shes already pissed EXPOSE YOUR WW and OM AFFAIR TO EVERYONE and do it NOW.
Many threaten to leave. Ok good theres the door honey I love you and its your choice, but I chose to love you and hope we can move forward in our M!
If she leaves she leaves, much better to have a WW gone than to continue being wayward. But dont fret many exposed WS's say the same crap. Im leaving is one of those sayings. You just pulled the crack pipe out of her mouth as she was lighting it up.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:31 PM
Can you find the OM's family in the states? I would expose to them too. Do what you have to do to find his family. Look on facebook first.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:36 PM
Help me guys... I thought exposure was to end the A? Believe me, that is over. I have several friends that work for the government, and this guy was FREAKED. He ended it right away, or his federal career was in jeopardy.

Do I still expose, even though I am almost certain it is over? Most of her family know. Who next?

Do I try to coerce her to stay? She was adamant she didn't want to be around me at all.

She did agree not to seek divorce right away. But can it still be worked on if she is out of house?
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 01:45 PM
My BIL worked there years ago. The Ambassador is Barry B. White. I would call him. I can assure you it will be taken seriously by him if you can get him on the phone. Character is of utmost importance in this field. Blow it UP!
Also Mrs Clinton is the SOS she may have a few issues with Affairs herself. LMAO at that. Contact her as well. This of course takes second seat to close friends and family.
Remember this is a WAR. Have you ever seen a nice WAR?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Help me guys... I thought exposure was to end the A? Believe me, that is over. I have several friends that work for the government, and this guy was FREAKED. He ended it right away, or his federal career was in jeopardy.

Do I still expose, even though I am almost certain it is over? Most of her family know. Who next?

Do I try to coerce her to stay? She was adamant she didn't want to be around me at all.

She did agree not to seek divorce right away. But can it still be worked on if she is out of house?
You've made a good strike by exposing OM at work, but you've got to complete exposure to everyone else asap. OM and your WW will jump on this and start spinning it to make you look like a jealous, nut-job husband who thinks everyone's having an A with his wife. You've got to get to everyone before they can do that.

Don't grovel if she wants to leave. Be the MAN of the house. If she must go, then she must. But the kids don't leave.

Pissed is good. I'd be more worried if she didn't care.

Let her charge out of the house in all of her fury. That will eventually blow out and she'll be faced with her options. Right now OM is looking like a pretty poor option. She'll more than likely contact you to start negotiations to return to the M. Be ready for that. Don't let her dictate to you what it will take for her to return. YOU tell HER what it will take.

What are your requirements for her to be able to return to the M?
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:19 PM
Sensing fear here AZ. FEAR HAS NO PLACE in this ugly ordeal. This is the one time in your life you have to have a set the size of king kong. Mbliss said it well. Continue exposure with a vengeance and let her react like a spoiled brat. Anger takes allot of energy. Nobody can maintain it long term. When that energy runs out guess whats she's faced with? REALITY of the consequences of her actions and that her family is now in severe jeopard. Hard to jump a plane to Oslo just to eat some cake so all she will have left is Reality.Do not fear the exposure and second guess it. Its likely the only thing that will save your M.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:21 PM
You need to expose to your family and hers before she spins her foggy version of events. Ask them to support your marriage and to keep the family whole for your children's sake. They can pressure her to end her fantasy lifestyle.

Listen to maritalbliss and melody. They have been helping here for years.

Women respect a decisive, confidant man. So, you'll need to grow a hairy pair fast(sorry for the imagery ladies). You're in a battle; fight the fear and charge up the hill.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Help me guys... I thought exposure was to end the A? Believe me, that is over. I have several friends that work for the government, and this guy was FREAKED. He ended it right away, or his federal career was in jeopardy.

Just remember - this is not your doing. He knowingly had an affair with a married woman. In some lines of work there are consequences for immoral behavior. A lot of State Department guys have clearances, and you can lose your clearance for something like this - or at least spend a lot of quality time with the investigators, which is almost as bad.

You should report the events in writing to the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, as well as to the embassy he works at. If he is freaked now, he's not seen nothin' yet!

Complete your exposure. Stay ahead of the spin WW will try to put on it.

Stay in the house. Get a VAR or two and keep one with you at all times. Calling the police and making a bogus domestic violence (DV) claim is straight out of the WW playbook - the man is guilty until proven innocent, and maybe not even then. Having a VAR may save your bacon.

If she wants to leave, you can't stop her. But she doesn't take kids or furniture without a court order.
Posted By: Rikitikitavi2 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 02:49 PM
I'm pretty new at this so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm now a true believer in the exposure part. For me, it just opened my circle of support and I actually think the more people of influence you expose to it will even further protect you down the road should your sitch switch to recovery mode. More people to hold your WS and POSOM accountable to the real consequences of their actions.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:15 PM
Yes, you still need to expose. You'd be surprised at the lengths affairees go to to keep the A going ~ even jeapordizing their jobs (he can get a secret cell phone, open up a secret email account, etc.).

Your friends and family can put pressure on your WW to knock it off and to keep her family together. She needs to see the disgust in their eyes when they find out what she's been doing.

The first time I found out about my H's A, I exposed (pre finding MB) ~ but not enough ~ they just took it further underground. That is the danger of not exposing enough.


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Help me guys... I thought exposure was to end the A? Believe me, that is over. I have several friends that work for the government, and this guy was FREAKED. He ended it right away, or his federal career was in jeopardy.

Do I still expose, even though I am almost certain it is over? Most of her family know. Who next?

Do I try to coerce her to stay? She was adamant she didn't want to be around me at all.

She did agree not to seek divorce right away. But can it still be worked on if she is out of house?

Of course the affair is not over. You have a very tiny window of opportunity to expose and kill this affair today and I fear you are squandering that opportunity. Don't tell me her family knows about the affair. They know the lies she has told. If you don't get up and get this exposed they are going to quickly regroup today and you lose your one chance

You will never have a more opportune time to kill this affair. You have caught them unawares today. Yu will not have that advantage tomorrow. Expose this affair to everyone TODAY. .

Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:17 PM
LOL the old saying goes that he11 has no fury as of a womans scorn. For me its he11s fury and a womans scorn never compares to the determination of a man that loves his family.
I would BLOW HIM UP.I have no empathy for a Man that knowingly beds another mans wife. I am vindictive by nature but factor in my wife and you just met the meanest SOB in the world. Ill crush anyone that tries to stand between what God has joined. I will do it as a Christian Soldier and within my legal rights. But I will crush.
Exposure is simply telling the truth. Be truthful and let the chips fall where they may.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:20 PM
DO NOT GIVE UP NOW. All you have done is send the OM an email. Just enough to piss them off but not enough to put a dent in the affair. Pissed off enough to come after you. If you are going to piss them off you need to kill the affair in the bargain. All you have done is used a pea shooter on the field of battle. You better get out your UZI before you get shot.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:21 PM
This is how you expose to family and friends:

"Dear ___________,

I am heartbroken to be telling you this but I need your help. WW and POSOM are having an A and have been since ______. I found out____ and am devastated.

I love my W and and am willing to forgive her and repair our M but I cannot do that until she ends her A. I am asking for your help in using your influence on her to encourage her to end her A, come home to our family and help repair what is broken.

Please keep us in your prayers.

DownInAZ".

You are not tattling or trying to humiliate her ~ you are sincerely asking for help.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:31 PM
And when you get responses to exposure, IGNORE the snotty ones and profusely thank those who are willing to support and help you.

When/if your WW goes ballistic respond with "I'm sorry you feel that way. I have been professionally counseled that this is what I must do in order to save my family. I don't like it anymore than you do but you've left me no choice."

Then walk away. Do not debate her.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
This morning, it hit the fan. He called a friend of hers who called her. She is pissed beyond measure. Plans to move out today. Can't believe I confronted POSOM and risked his career.

OK, this is why we also usually recommend doing ALL of your exposure and AVOIDING your WS until it is all done ~ because the WS freaks out and the BS becomes afraid to finish the job.

Your WW is furious ~ that's good, that's what you want! It's working! Keep going, DO NOT stop now.

Many WSs will threaten to leave, some even pack up a bag and leave but they almost always come back, sometime within hours.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 03:56 PM
Down,

How is it going?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:05 PM
I am at work, she is home working on what she will do moving forward (moving out for now, it appears).

I am exposing through email and text as best I can.

I'm pretty much up and down by the hour. smile
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:10 PM
DIZ,

You�re doing great. Don�t hamper your progress by making some classic mistakes. A couple of DON�Ts for you.

1. Don�t tell your WW about Marriage Builders or the advice we�re giving you. This website is a secret source of info for you.

2. Don�t be afraid of your WW�s anger. You will survive her anger. Your marriage will not survive an continuing affair.

3. Be calm and cool. Think James Bond whenever you�re dealing with your WW. Channel him. Role play him when you deal with her. Being cool and calm will scare her a lot more than ranting and raving. Imagine these two scenarios: WW comes and tells you that you�re ruining his life and risking his career. Your reaction can be a yelling rant where you say, �You�re da*mn right! I will ruin his life and destroy him!� All while yelling, turning red, and having veins bulge out of your head. In contrast, imagine staying cool and calm instead. SHE rants and raves and you then say, �I don�t care about OM at all. I will do whatever is necessary to save this marriage and end your affair.� You say it matter of fact. You say it cool and calm. You then ask, �Want a cookie? Just baked them for you.� Then watch her go nuts, because she will.

4. If she talks divorce, clarify her fantasy in her head. She imagines that she�ll get everything. Make a few things clear for her. If she says she will divorce, you say, �I would much rather save our marriage. If you go down that path, I can tell you right now I will not make it easy or pleasant. I will fight tooth and nail for everything. I will subpoena the other man to come and testify about your affair. I will fight for sole physical and legal custody of the kids. I will fight for every single thing in our house, down to the last fork. I�d much rather end your affair and rebuild our marriage.� Say it in a James Bond, calm and cool style. It will freak her out.

5. Show absolutely no fear. Do not cry, beg or plead. YOU are in control, not her.

6. Be cold and heartless with the other man. Make his life so much he77 that he sprints away from your WW. The fact that he works for the government could be very good for you. He will feverishly protect his clearance and status. Exposure to his boss will have a massive impact. Find out if he�s married and expose to his wife, who will be your biggest ally.

7. Be calm. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don�t act on emotion, but act on a plan. We�ll help you put it together.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:15 PM
One more thing:

I'm glad you're exposing. It is the number one piece of advice we give all betrayed here. There is never one instance when we advise someone to not expose. It is the most important step you can take to kill the affair. It feels wrong to you, but trust us. It works.
Posted By: reading Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:23 PM
And all waywards make threats. Scary, evil threats in response. That is normal.

She might leave but not because of your exposure, but because of her own infidelity and knowing that it is wrong (why others knowing about it is so dreadful to waywards).

Do not engage in any of her threats. Just tell her you would like her to stay and the kids do stay with you either way. Period.

She wants you to react negatively to her reaction to the exposure in order to justify her affair more.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 04:35 PM
After I exposed, I asked my FWH what his plan was ~ was he going to come home and be a man and fix the mess he'd made, or make it all worse by bailing.

His answer "I can't come home now that you've told everyone ~ I am humiliated and can never face another person again. I will never be able to make this right, I'm done."

He was home 6 weeks later and we began recovery.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 05:45 PM
[Linked Image from istockphoto.com]
DiA: Think about what has changed in the last 24 hours. You got more results than Jack Bauer.

POSOM is running scared, thereby showing WW what a "value" he was.

WW is terrified (trust us here : TERR - I - FIED!) about the dung-storm about to hit her from friends, family, etc.

You have the self-respect-boost (even if it hasn't hit you yet - give it time) that you have FOUGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE.

DO NOT LET UP!!!!!

Telling your children will be brutal - brutal but necessary. They'll likely suspect what's happening, but letting them divine the reality, and be in error about the details, is unfair to them.

You don't know the folks here well yet, but when Melody Lane and NeverGuessed stress the same point - TREAT IT AS IF YOU FOUND A TABLET THAT MOSES DROPPED. Get that mini-recorder before you see her in person again!!!!!
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 05:46 PM
Thanks all. I am doing my best to stay calm and even keeled.

Thanks for the Bond advice, Help...

I have to admit it's hard threatening the nuclear divorce option (fighting tooth and nail). It's something that I said I would never do. But I udnerstand if makes reality much more stark. I will continue to hold that line.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 05:57 PM
Spoke to my BILaw about this. He says call the Ambassador and tell him. He assures me they will probably put him under investigation and at the very least have some serious issues with his actions. My BIL was stationed in several embassy's for 17 years of his military career.He finished his career at the white house as Cheneys aid. He says the Govt clearance needed will be at risk because of this OM actions. I would rock his world If I was you.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:02 PM
Diz,

I advise you as a man who fell for the �amicable divorce line�. I was told by my ex that the only chance we had to reconcile was to have time apart to heal and then get back together.

So I rolled over, gave her everything, and did as she asked. I ended up unemployed, without my stuff, separated from my kids, and then refighting for custody later.

Dispel from your mind the idea of the amicable divorce. It doesn�t exist, but she�ll try to sell you on it. Let her know that the path of divorce will be nasty and full of nothing but pain for her while the path of reconciling is much more pleasant to follow.

Your coolness at doing what is necessary (as a man of action, not emotions) will seriously shake her up.

Is OM married? Girlfriend? Anything on his facebook page that hints he�s married?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:08 PM
OK, I have to ask a question, and I sure it's a newbie. If I had the focus, I would look it up in other posts.

I am NOW being labeled as a massive control freak (because I used keylogger, hacked email, tracked phone logs, searched her purse, emailed the OM, threatened to fight for everything in the divorce, etc). I would not say I was a control freak before (or I would have caught the A sooner), but I it was certainly a 70/30 split when it came to decision making. This entire episode seems to "reinforce" her feeling that I will always be controlling, which is pushing her away even more. Am I just being to paranoid about that???

Like I said, newbie... of to buy a recorder.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:10 PM
Can't find his FB page. I think he is divorced (from investigations). Called the ex up and the new husband answered. Was very quiet and would not confirm or deny this guys existence. I also called what I think was his parents house, but was told I had wrong number.
Posted By: schtoop Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:17 PM
You are being labeled as "contolling" because you are preventing your WW from carrying on with the OM. It is what all waywards say.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:18 PM
Your desire to snoop is a natural defense mechanism. Don�t reveal that you�re snooping or you will drive her further underground.

You collect your evidence and then strike. If you were snooping when all was normal, then I�d say you�re a control freak. But how normal is it to learn that your wife has been boinking another man? Not normal. An abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is normal behavior. (Thank Victor Frankl for that one. Get �Man�s Search for Meaning�. It�s fantastic.)

Spy to protect not only yourself, but your family. Defend your marriage for your children. Think of it as fighting for them and their home and family. The WW is very good at convincing herself that, �the kids will be ok� and that, �It�s better for the kids that I be happy than unhappy in a bad marriage.� They tell themselves such things. They really believe that kids will eventually like this because mom or dad is happy with the OM/OW.

Quite the opposite. I divorced when my DD was 3. She recently said (now 8), in front of my new wife, that she wishes that we had never divorced. I wish my parents had never divorced.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see when it comes to your WW. Snoop for the truth. She is the one who has the burden of winning over trustworthiness.

Which reminds me:

She�ll claim that you�re violating her privacy. Educate her in this manner, �I�ve done no such thing. I�ve violated your secrecy, not your privacy. And I have a right to know if you�re with another man given that you put my health at risk and that it will destroy us financially. Privacy is closing the door when you go to the bathroom. Secrecy is the only thing I�ve touched on. Want a cookie?�
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:24 PM
OMG...I can't believe you mentioned that book Help... THAT is the book the OM gave my WW!!!

It was back when he was doing a volunteer study (he is a sociologist and was interviewing people in the small town she grew up in near our city). She "liked" that he showed interest in her, asked her questions like "what does time mean to you", etc. Gave her that book. Probably identified her weaknesses and pounced.

Good points on secrecy vs. privacy.

My brain is hearing all that you guys are saying, really, it is. Just hard to envision someone so angry as she was today ever not being that angry. smile
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:27 PM
It may or may not be the wrong number. I wouldn't have much to offer someone other than sympathy if I got a call from a guy claiming that my ex was having an affair. I might take action to expose it to her boyfriend, but would otherwise not have much to say.

You may or may not have gotten the right parents. But you'll know soon enough if you did.

Exposure is key. I commend you for being brave. Don't be afraid. It feels wrong, but it's the most important step to killing the affair if you're going to succeed in doing so.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:28 PM
FWIW, these vets are 100% correct..after I exposed, my W went all exorcist on me, even calling family I exposed to herself to complain to them I exposed...and she threatened to leave, divorce, etc. all the things the vets said she would say...she left....and came back an hour later.

Can't promise exposure will save the M, but now know without it...well, the WS would never clear from the fog. She really had to decide then and there if she was pro-marriage or pro-OM...
Posted By: pdc Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:37 PM
I am one more voice here to say: these people with this advice are not jilted vindictive people. They are providing valid compassionate and professional advice. These same people have compassion and direction when the offending person comes here looking for advice.

I just wanted to add that. Time is of essence for you.

-pdc
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 06:42 PM
Disregard the book if it will act as a trigger to you. That sucks since it�s a good book. If you can get past the trigger aspect of it, read the book. It really helped me a lot. I was given the book when I was dealing with the emotional devastation of the changes in my life back then. I was literally in the psych ward and was given that book by a nurse there. I started reading and couldn�t put it down to the point where I had to go get a highlighter.

But I understand if the book is an unpleasant trigger.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 07:10 PM
Have we made it clear that she will be livid?

Just a few things we�ve all heard, plus some counters:

�I can�t trust you after this!�
Counter babble: �I�m sorry that your affair has caused this problem.�
�How could you betray me?�
Counter babble: �I�ve been asking myself the same thing about your affair.�
�I can�t live with someone who is spying on me!�
Counter, �I couldn�t either! Let�s work on restoring trust.�
�You violated my privacy!�
Counter: �I violated your secrecy, not your privacy. (Plus what I said before)�
�How could you ruin his life like this?�
Counter: �I�ve been asking myself how he could be with a married woman.�
�We had a chance to save things, but you just ruined that!�
Counter: �We can�t save our marriage if you�re having an affair. I will do what�s necessary to end the affair and save our family.�
�You�re only doing this to be vindictive!�
Counter: �No. I�m doing this because you�re having an affair.�

Just keep in mind that you can counter all of this with, �I will do what is necessary to kill your affair and save our marriage.�

Repeat it like a broken record. Counter babble if you can, which isn�t the same as being defensive. It�s putting it back on her.
Posted By: NeedMyGirls Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 07:39 PM
If you know the guy's full name and he really does have a clearance, call the NCIS (1-877-579-3648) and report him. I think they'll be interested.

Yes, NCIS is real, its the Navy Criminal Investigative Service. They're responsible for most investigations regarding background and security clearances.

During some investigations, called a lifestyle investigation, they ask questions about sexual morality. They're looking for indicators that this person can be swayed to give up information either through pillow talk or blackmail. I do believe carrying on an affair would be a big indicator - specifically for a person working at an embassy.

I hope this helps you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
OK, I have to ask a question, and I sure it's a newbie. If I had the focus, I would look it up in other posts.

I am NOW being labeled as a massive control freak (because I used keylogger, hacked email, tracked phone logs, searched her purse, emailed the OM, threatened to fight for everything in the divorce, etc). I would not say I was a control freak before (or I would have caught the A sooner), but I it was certainly a 70/30 split when it came to decision making. This entire episode seems to "reinforce" her feeling that I will always be controlling, which is pushing her away even more. Am I just being to paranoid about that???

Like I said, newbie... of to buy a recorder.

OMG!!! I said the same thing to my H to my husband when he took the car keys away from me when I wanted to go drunk driving! What a coincidence! My H was trying to "control" me by not allowing me to go drunk driving!!! dramaqueen

You are so mean to want to protect yourself and your children from your wife's destructive actitivies by catching her cheat!! crybaby
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 09:37 PM
Thanks to all you. Been a huge help.

Today has been the worst day, by far. Very little sleep last night plus the anxiety from today. I have to steel myself to be cool and collected when I get home. I know that is key.

Anyone have any tricks for overcoming panic/anxiety attacks?
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 09:43 PM
I just walk away for a moment or two, compose myself, speak slowly.......breathe deeply..........and just remember the long term plan, today is just a step towards that.......don't get hung up on the details today...........
Just keep repeating over and over again that you are only trying to save your marriage and that putting an end to the affair is the focus right now........
Don't ever back down from exposure, don't ever take the blame for the affair, they weren't your choices so don't be responsible for them.......
Stay calm and try to be positive even if you don't feel it.............
good luck
Posted By: kaycstamper Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 09:56 PM
Have you finished exposure to everyone on your list today? How is it going?

You are getting the best of advice here.

Incidentally, Dr. Phil had a show on last night about mistresses and brought on betrayed spouses to confront them but he surprised me because he jumped all over a betrayed spouse for telling his son...he did so out of vindictiveness and showed his son the offending emails between WW & OM. I don't think a person needs to go graphic or into too much detail but still they need to expose, giving age-appropriate info as the child can understand.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 09:57 PM
Going for a walk outside helps. When you are ready and feeling confident, then talk to her.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 11:17 PM
Home tonight. Did exposure to all on my list. Not too big a list (several of her family and friends were already hiding for her and knew... I know from text I read). I feel she there will not be a lot of pressure from outside on her.

She moved out (was home for a bit, but left when I arrived). Very cold, distant. With her being at a friends, she is obviously able to start up the communication with the OM, despite my best attempts to break the A. I guess this is where I am not so confident it is over.

Then again, just might be me going through the cycles.
Posted By: Colten Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 11:32 PM
I went through the same thing awhile ago it is a really hard thing to go through. To make a marriage work after an affair both spouses have to be willing to work out the problems together. No matter if you go to counseling or you have a good program like the one it sounds like you have, if the other spouse does not follow the correct steps it will never work.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/12/11 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Home tonight. Did exposure to all on my list. Not too big a list (several of her family and friends were already hiding for her and knew... I know from text I read). I feel she there will not be a lot of pressure from outside on her.

Down, you did a great job moving home! Don't despair, your exposures will pay off. I would focus on exposing to the OM's family and friends and possibly his workplace. Get it while the getting is good!

Where are your kids? Have you exposed to them yet?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 12:44 AM
DiA,

Please expose to the government and the agency that holds his clearance. It will impact him deeply. He just might realize your W is not worth all of the trouble that he will go through even if he does retain his clearance.

My guess he is cleared to a high level. If that is the case, he is in big trouble. I know what I am talking about here. I have been through those investigations many times as I have held such clearances for over 40 years. You need to continue your exposure. You need to ENJOY your home and most of all ENJOY your children.

Right now focus on the kids. You cannot end the affair, your W and OM must end it. What you are trying to do is make it uncomfortable for them to have the affair (shining light in a dark place so to speak). Shine that light and then be the best Dad you can be. You control ALL of your life, you don't control hers. So...work at enjoying your life and those that love and respect you that are in it.


Calm down, your W has not done or said a single thing that I and others have not read here 10's of thousands of times. It is normal and it is ameanable to the Harley approach because it is so normal.

Will your marriage be saved? Hard to know. Can it be saved? YES! Harley points out that most affairs end within 6 months. The real question is will you be around or want the marriage when it ends. That you work on by focusing on the rest of your life and your children.

Hang in there.

JL
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:45 AM
Down,

I've been in your shoes twice. It's agony, but all the BS on these forums survived it. Focus on your kids and yourself tonight.

Tomorrow call the NCIS (1-877-579-3648) and tell them what POSOM is doing. They will investigate and pull his security clearance. The investigation can take a few weeks. Don't let him know what is coming.

I'm assuming POSOM works for the state department. The U.S. Embassy in Norway is in Oslo. The Ambassador is Barry B. White. The fraud and crime e-mail address is oslotips@state.gov. There is more contact info here
Norway is 10 hours ahead of PST.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 12:32 PM
Making OM�s life a living he77 will drive him away faster, especially if a clearance is involved. Don�t be afraid of this, but also don�t be surprised if you�re asked to offer proof. Have some emails, preferably with .gov or .mil in the address line, to forward to the bosses. I�m sure there�s been some contact through the email system and with official phones. It�s no different than a private company, who wouldn�t appreciate having company resources used to carry on personal relationships.

Keep one thing in the back of your mind: Her leaving opens things up for you on a legal level. You can use it to show that she obviously thinks you�re a good dad since she left the kids with you while leaving. It also opens her up to abandonment charges, which are frowned upon by the courts.

Take care of the kids first and foremost. I completely understand how much of a mess your brain is right now. I went through it will toddlers and remember how absent minded I became during this horrible time. I once left my DD in her overnight diaper for most of the day because I simply forgot to change it with all that was on my mind. I once put my boys in their high chairs to feed them, gave them a small snack while I made their lunch, and then forgot I put the meal in the fridge to cool down for them to eat. They didn�t eat and were horribly grumpy. I finally realized my mistake and saw the meal I made for them in the fridge.

This ordeal will consume you mentally, putting out just about everything else. You�ll forget to eat. You�ll be unable to sleep even though you�re totally exhausted. You�ll have a heavy weight in your chest constantly. You�ll feel like lying in the corner in the fetal position, trying to erase the horrible images in your head of her with another man.

So we know what you�re going through. Take care of those kids and steel yourself for the fight ahead. Do not be afraid of her anger. I was and I allowed that anger to control me. Don�t let it happen to you. Think James Bond. Watch one of his movies for inspiration.

Cool and calm and calculating. Fake it till you make it.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 12:54 PM
Your doing great man. Dont fret as all this is the same crap they all spew when we take away there cake. If she leaves for a bit in the courts eyes you have even more of an advantage and it also allows reality to show up.
Now finish off this POSOM. Dont let him go unscathed. His clearance is valuable to him and he wont risk it for a WW that has a pissed off Husband and baggage(kids).
Remember what I said about Anger. It takes so much energy to remain angery that its unsustainable for long periods of time.
Hence get any lose ends tied up in Exposure.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 12:59 PM
I agree you are doing great, we have all lived through what you are right now,
It is exposure that will bring the affair to the light of day, they will be pissed so what they should have thought about that..
This should give you a feeling of control again, don't be angry, have a solid plan.
This part takes a couple of weeks to pass, the sooner you do the exposure the sooner things get to where they should be, your wife will see the OM dump her like a hot potato, she isn't worth that much to him..
You will rock fantasy world with reality this is what you want to do....
Just keep telling your wife you are doing what you need to do to save your marriage. say nothing else.....
hang in there, come here for support
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:03 PM
Down, I would consider contacting an attorney today because I have a suspicion that your wife might be getting a restraining order to get you booted. I have seen this happen a couple of times where a husband moves back home and, in a ploy to get him out, she will move out. She hopes it will make him feel guilty enough to leave. When he doesn't leave, she will file a RO. If I were going to file a RO I would wait until Friday late to do it so you wouldn't be able to answer for a few days.

Do you have a VAR in your pocket? If not, stop by Walmart TODAY and get one before you go home. Record all your conversations with her just to be safe.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:05 PM
I've been doing that guys. She wants a divorce, asap. Want's to start this week (today or at the least next week). Arizona is a very easy state to get a divorce. No fault state. I am not sure what to do now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
I've been doing that guys. She wants a divorce, asap. Want's to start this week (today or at the least next week). Arizona is a very easy state to get a divorce. No fault state. I am not sure what to do now.

Expose the affair! Let her file. If she does, then you need to get the meanest attorney you can to defend you. Even though it is a no fault state, many states will let you bring in evidence of adultery. Can you do that? I would not cooperate with her divorce action at all. He affair is doomed to failure and the goal should be to drag out the divorce beyond the affair.

Don't cooperate and let her know you won't be cooperating. You will go for the house, primary custody of your child. Whatever you do, don't cooperate. And finish your exposures.

The key to saving your marriage is to kill the affair, Down. In order to kill it, you have to expose it. Don't let her scare you with divorce talk. Dont' let her distract you. The best chance you have of saving your marriage is to fight the affair and do not cooperate with any divorce except to defend yourself.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:13 PM
Down, where are your kids? Are they with you? Have you told them about her affair? They need to hear what she is doing to their family. And she needs to answer to them.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:19 PM
I am not sure what to do now.

Yes, you do.

You hire a lawyer. You gather all the evidence of her actions, including her moving out. You fight like a hungry junk-yard dog for a discarded pork chop at every step in the process. You ensure she knows you plan to do just that.

You move all joint financial assets into your single-owner accounts. (You might have to return some, but let the courts order that.) If the car she's driving is titled to you, retrieve it, pull the plates, cancel the insurance.

You continue the exposure on his side. (How much worse will it be to his career to have the title of "home-wrecker" pinned into his file?) When it comes to that, your lawyer will find a way to subpoena OM on some reason. You contact your congressman for assistance (State Department officials just "love" congressional interest in their personnel and activities.)
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:21 PM
DIZ,

Divorces only go quickly if you cooperate with them. I speak from experience. My D would have taken a long time if I had resisted and dragged my feet.

That is your plan. It's your plan because it buys you time. DO NOT agree with her desires for a quick divorce. If anything, you should file first to control the pace of the proceedings. You can file first, drag things out, then withdraw your petition in order to force her to file.

These are delaying tactics. You can also file on the grounds of abandonment, since she's left the home.

Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:26 PM
Kids are with me, exposed.

Do I force counseling? Honestly, she is soooo angry, it is really hard for me to see any reconciliation. Honestly. This really happens?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Kids are with me, exposed.

Do I force counseling? Honestly, she is soooo angry, it is really hard for me to see any reconciliation. Honestly. This really happens?

No, the goal now is to break up the affair by exposing. You can't force her to go to counseling and even if you could, that would probably be disasterous to your marriage.

Your best chance of reconciliation is to fight for your marriage by exposing it and by running off the OM. Raise holy hell for him and encourage your kids to speak to her about what she is doing to their family. You should not whitewash her wrongdoings for your wife. That helps no one.
Posted By: pdc Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:52 PM
Is reconciliation likely? Maybe not, but ending the affair is the ONLY chance of reconciliation and exposure is the only way to end the affair.

All the legal wrangling takes time. By then you and she will decide whether reconciliation is possible or desirable.

Until the affair is DEAD, you don't have a prayer.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 01:55 PM
Angry is good. Do not fret it. And honesty YES it happens. Let reality set in and let her realize what a D will look like. But let her know you love her and want to work it out but on required terms. Let that fog lift a little and clear and you will probably see a different view and a different woman once she realizes what SHE did. This is not your doing its HERS to own. She has to woman up and own the responsibility and repercussions of HER actions.
Also go see your MD today. Stress is heavy heavy. Get some RX to help you be Bond, James Bond.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 02:00 PM
DiA -

One of the things you have absolutely got to remove from your make-up RIGHT NOW is the American "It's got to be the moronic man's fault!" mentality. It will continue to neuter your actions.

Honestly, she is soooo angry

REALLY? REALLY?????

She runs off to Vegas, gets thoroughly and satisfyingly plowed and stuffed by Mr. Attache, comes home, expecting to have hubby now dutifully wash out her dainties, and continue being the proper husband, until she can figure out how to plan a vacation to Norway, buts gets discovered.......

and SHE'S ANGRY ??????

You want to find a way to blot out the image of her anger? Focus on her laying back on that queen-sized Vegas bed, displaying where your children entered this world, right before OM jumped on, heading in the other direction!

Dude, you're supposed to be the one abso-effin'-lutely livid. Stop playing the role that the US femi-nazis have mandated you follow.

PLAN AND ACT STARTING NOW TO INCREASE HER ANGER, RUIN EVERY FACET OF HER LIFE!!!!!

Because THAT life, the one you will now ruin, is the one that encouraged and supported her infidelity.
Posted By: Xau Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 02:14 PM
I do not see if you have affected the OM yet, who on his side have you exposed to?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 02:37 PM
The anger is expected and normal. Her response so far is very typical.

It sucks for you because you've never been in this situation before. We've seen your story hundreds of times. Sometimes the marriage is saved. Sometimes it isn't.

The one constant is that the betrayed never regrets exposure and nothing is as effective in getting an affair to end.

Your anxiety is also normal, in addition to you doubting if the advice we're giving is the best course of action.

So far, you've been a "by the book" case of wayward and betrayed behavior.

Don't mistake "figthing for your marriage" with becoming an a*hole. Think James Bond again. Does he act like a raging a*hole because he fights? He looks cool while fighting. He does what's necessary to get the mission accomplished. He's calculating, calm, collected, and determined. When he's done with the mission, he sits down, gets himself a Martini, shaken, not stirred.

That man gets seen as a hero by the WW if and when she comes out of her fog.

A huge part of this process is standing your ground. Think of how scared that student in Tienamen Square was when he stood in front of a column of tanks. Nothing prevented those tanks from running him over and squashing him. Yet he stood his ground, likely crapping his pants as the picture was taken, but stood there, stoic and brave and showing no fear. Did he feel fear? Absolutely. But he stood his ground.

Same advice for a BH. Stand your ground. Be ready to fight if necessary.

I would consult a lawyer and discuss your options. Have something ready to file, just in case.

Also, take all your finances and protect them. She will drain your bank account, if given the chance.

Again, I speak from experience. I thougth, "She'd never...."

Well, she did.

Take all funds out of joint bank accounts and put them into new accounts only you have access to.

When she blows her top, you say, "I'm protecting myself and the kids from your behavior. If you return, commit to saving and rebuilding our marriage, and agree to cutoff all contact with OM for life, I will be happy to treat you as my wife. If not, then you deal with the reality of divorce. Since you want to be single, then you can start with supporting yourself. I also have no obligation to pay for you to committ adultery."

Remember, you're scared but standing your ground and showing a brave face. You look determined, brave, cool, and unflinching.

You're James Bond. You're Bruce Lee.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 02:45 PM
And she will be majorly ticked off because you're not funding her cheating. She'll call you everything in the book. Just expect it.

Then pick up the phone and continue to make the OM's life he77.

Also, look into Alienation of Affection lawsuits and if that doesn't work or is unavailable, look into "Willful infliction of emotional distress" against OM.

Will you win? Not likely. But seeing legal papers often scares the living he77 out of OM, who run off to greener pastures.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 02:47 PM
Hang in there Down. We are all rooting for you.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 03:17 PM
All solid stuff. You also just got one of your first 2x4s. It was given with care. Get pissed off yourself and I mean PISSED OFF. Again this isnt a trip to the park its a WAR. Strategies for WAR is whats needed to WIN the WAR. And its seldom nice.
Know that with her A going on and not making her accountable that you were for sure headed for a divorce. FOR SURE. OR likely you plan doormat her and 2 years down the road she hiney ups for another OM because you allowed her to not own her actions and require preventions to prevent another A and have a happy M. It happened to me and Ill be DOUBLE D D/Amed if Ill ever walk this walk again. I will walk away from that threat gladly and apologize to my children for there mothers actions as I TAKE CUSTODY from her. Its my plan and either get on the train or get the He11 off of it. Draw that hard line but show her that line has a edge that wont be crossed without consequences. And show her all of this calmly and with the love you have for her and your family.
Im pissed for you Im Pissed enough to call his boss and his boss and his boss and spill the truth all over the internet and papers for you. Are you pissed yet...I am! Fear not her anger, fear a loveless M that will likely have multiple A's if YOU dont put a stop to it now. We tell you all of this with love and sincerity from men that truly feel and even weep for you. We know the battle and we walked your shoes. We dont come here telling BHs things to kill a M. We hope and aspire for your M to recover to its fullest potential when we see the love you have for you family and your WW.
I prayed for you and your family last night and all this week with my WW. I dont know your name but I know your pain!
Posted By: fight4life Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 04:15 PM
so she is angry and is spewing hateful, lurid, vile things. It sucks, but we have heard all of these things and many of us still have our M's intact. She is trying to get you to stop - she is trying to control you, not the other way around.

You need to contact the embassy and really lower the boom on this bum. He has it coming, as he gurgled out of a sewer somewhere and needs to learn some manners. And most important, he will run for the hills (the fjords?) and never speak to his little tart again. Exterminate the A, then you can move to the next step.

Right now you are following a plan and she is acting out of blind rage. She has just abandoned her children and she will find out just how stupid a move that is pretty quickly. Tell her son that he can stay with you as long as he likes and if she comes for him and he says he wants to stay she will have to go to court to get him back. What does his biological father know about all this?

You have to realize she is non compos mentis right now, which is exactly where you want her to be. Discount what she says, hard as that is. And do what the veterans tell you to do - don't think, don't wring your hands, just do it.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 05:22 PM
DiA,

Here being angry is GREAT. It really is. It is a much better state than being withdrawn from you. For better or worse she is paying attention to you. As others have said, I will say again. Work on exposing the affair and putting heat on the OM.

The affair must end first, then and only then does this marriage have a shot.

Hang in there and give this Time and Patience.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 05:33 PM
Plan A and make yourself the very best husband you can.

Her anger is what it is. Her anger is her response to her lies being exposed to others.

"You chose the behavior, you chose the consequences." - Dr Phil

Plan A is NOT all about ruining every facet of her life.
No.
Plan A = life with you looks good.
Plan A = life with adultery/OM looks bad.


Plan A is not punishment or revenge.
Anyone who posts that way has a lack of understanding.

Plan A is about stopping her adultery by means of the stick. Good job you!

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 05:46 PM
Plan A is not punishment or revenge.
Anyone who posts that way has a lack of understanding.


Plan A? She's moved out of the house and is threatening divorce. Talking "Plan A" right now is absurd. Right now DiA is in "Plan Self Preservation".

His WW's life right now is fueled by affair-drugged fantasy, supported by her elevated sense of entitlement, and armed with her belief that he will "take" her abuse without response.

I'm urging him to disabuse her of most of that atmosphere. That will work to kill her affair. Plan A can follow.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Welcome to the
Marriage Builders� Discussion Forum
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 06:32 PM
Now wait a minute, Plan A is Plan Self preservation. Plan A means he works to kill the affair while protecting himself in every way. It is a comprehensive approach. Being in Plan A never means you stop protecting yourself, even if that means hiring a pit bull attorney and moving your money.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 06:34 PM
Plan A is a stick and a carrot. Neverguessed, you and I are good at the STICK part; grin others are good at the carrot part. It takes both types!! laugh
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Plan A is a stick and a carrot. Neverguessed, you and I are good at the STICK part; grin others are good at the carrot part. It takes both types!! laugh

And, sometimes people want to take that carrot and STICK it someplace .... shocked
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Plan A is a stick and a carrot. Neverguessed, you and I are good at the STICK part; grin others are good at the carrot part. It takes both types!! laugh

And, sometimes people want to take that carrot and STICK it someplace .... shocked

rotflmao
Posted By: kaycstamper Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 06:58 PM
Have you called the Embassy yet? You're fortunate that he has clearance...more artillery for you! If he worked a regular job you might not have so much ammo...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
I've been doing that guys. She wants a divorce, asap. Want's to start this week (today or at the least next week). Arizona is a very easy state to get a divorce. No fault state. I am not sure what to do now.

Don't despair just yet. My sister's H repeatedly stated he was D-O-N-E, raged for three days and even broke some things in the house. My sister responded in broken record fashion that she had hope for the M once the A ended.

See what she is saying a few days after the A ends and she cools off. Don't despair yet.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 07:46 PM
ps ~ I think my sister's story is a very good example of using both the carrot and the stick. She just left here, I asked her to post her story to the Success thread (since her story was lost in the MB crash of '09). Hopefully she will... smile
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 09:05 PM
It's so funny how they act when the dirty deeds come to light huh? They are outwardly taking out their frustrations on YOU when the blame is firmly theirs.

Don't buy this for a minute. Like we always say here, "A M can survive exposure, but it CANNOT survive a prolonged affair".

I have one word for what happens when a govn't figure has an affair. Ensign. Google what happened to this jerk. Get empowered!!!
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/13/11 09:09 PM
Read this link. Watch the video. Get a vomit bucket ready.
Ensign Affair

t happened. And to think I thought this was a great guy at one time.

But THIS is how the govn't will regard one who commits adultery and possibly is squandering govn't assets so they can carry on an immoral affair and has high security clearances.

Posted By: Just Learning Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/14/11 12:51 AM
Hey The former Mayor of San Fransisco and now Lt. Gov. of CA had an affair with his best friends W and all that got him was reelected and then elected to a higher state office. Given his "good hair" Newsome will probably be on the national scene soon.

Notice all of these guys could be basketball coaches with the well coffed hair. Oh! yeah we had another guy running for President with "good" hair and $400 dollar haircuts do the same thing.

I'm thinking it is not the party it is the hair...vote bald! laugh

JL
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/14/11 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
...vote bald! laugh

I could not agree more.

Bald it is.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/14/11 01:20 AM
HI Pep,

Should we launch a new campaign? I mean really hair might as well as been a discriminator as anything else...wait it already is isn't it?

Seriously, I just know how these guys get reelected given what they have done.

I know this is not solving DiA's issue, but one does wonder what people think sometimes.

JL
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/14/11 10:44 AM
Hang in there bud. Shes still pissed and foggy. Let her do whatever she wants while raging and just keep the record going. I wish to recover our M but I demand NC for life with OM and a plan of restoring love to our M and a divorce is not what YOU want. You may not feel like it but your in the drivers seats 100%.
Tell her nicely that if she files you will counter sue on the grounds of adultery and abandonment. Also let her know that you will be seeking full custody, the M home and all M assets. And you will be deposing the OM and getting a court order that will summon all her email/texts and phone calls. And that this should more than give you enough evidence to gain full custody, child support and possibly alimony. My state disallows adulterous spouses from any alimony claims and favors the righteous spouse in custody. Document everything.
You want her to see REALITY. Restoring a M to a willing loving spouse VS an ugly battle that you have all the cards held in.
It will get better be patient and be cool as ice.
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/14/11 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by peachyisback
Read this link. Watch the video. Get a vomit bucket ready.
96k? Wow. All I got by way of restitution from OM was a black bic lighter as a symbol of peace...

CV
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/15/11 11:06 AM
AZ whats up my man? She still spewing or did her energy anger run out yet?
Hope your having a great weekend wit DC. Take them to a park or swimming or something after church.:)
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/15/11 12:43 PM
Hang in there AZ. How are you doing?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:06 PM
OK, time for an update.

Was told very bluntly on Friday she wanted a divorce. She saw no reason to work on our marriage, as it would just go back to what it was, plus be worse because of her affair (I would be suspicious of everything). She admitted that was her fault, but was not willing to live with the consequences.

She is living with a friend, very close by. She comes over in the morning to get the kids ready for school, then comes home after work to do the night time stuff. Leaves around 10 PM to sleep at the other place.

I am 99% sure the A is over. Exposed to all I know, and him. He has called through a friend to tell her he cannot contact her anymore.

Here is the problem. AZ is a no-contest state. I can fight a divorce for quite a while, but it would mean getting real crappy. She already resents that I am not agreeing to a divorce right away.

BTW... the friend that she is staying with is supportive of the A, actually offered to use her Skype account to let my wife talk to the OM. My wife decline (saw it on text) because she doesn't want to jeopardize his job.

So, do I continue with Plan A during our contacts? How long should I expect her to be pissed and resentful?

Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Was told very bluntly on Friday she wanted a divorce.

Yeah?
Is it all talk so far?
Did she do any actual footwork to make a D happen?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:13 PM
She would filed Friday if I hadn't told her that I would contest every step.

It is not all talk. I am 99% sure she is adamant about the divorce. But I am also very concerned that someone makes a life altering decision like that in the midst of an emotional storm (affair, confrontation, our issues, etc).
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:17 PM
Yes, keep Plan A'ing her every chance you get.

After I exposed I went straight to Plan B since we'd been in a FR and I had had enough. DH knew what he needed to do in order to come home (commit to NC and commit to recovery). I'd already been in Plan A for 10 months so he knew what he'd be missing if he didn't pull his head out.

NC happened right away but DH stayed gone for 6 weeks ~ he needed to time to face so many things ~ the damage he'd done, the humiliation of everyone knowing about his A. I believe there is also some feelings of wanting to save face ~ they are afraid of how dumb they would look after all the b*tching and complaining about how bad the M was if they come right home.

So they stay away for a while. I recommend you continue to Plan A and continue your mantra of "we can build a better marriage. I have been in contact with a professional psychologist who specializes in helping couples recover from an A. He has an incredibly high success rate. With his help we can fall in love again, I am sure of that."

Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
It is not all talk.

Until she files, it is talk.
It is a threat, but talk is not an action.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:31 PM
She would have filed if I had not threatened to contest the divorce at every step. I am basically forcing interaction by the threat... is that bad?
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
She would have filed if I had not threatened to contest the divorce at every step. I am basically forcing interaction by the threat... is that bad?

Don't threaten, instead use the mantra I highlighted above ~ i.e., "I want the M and I am going to fight to keep it. I love you and know that we can fall back in love again. I want to keep our family together, I don't want a D."

Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
She would have filed if I had not threatened to contest the divorce at every step. I am basically forcing interaction by the threat... is that bad?

She only wants a divorce if you do all the work and otherwise make it easy for her to divorce you.

This makes her ALL TALK. (for now)

Trust me.
As a woman, if I wanted to divorce my H, I would not even discuss it with him.
I'd go do it.
When I was a freshly wounded BW, I threatened divorce. I was all talk.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:40 PM
DIZ,

Look at the result of your standing up to her so far. She claims she would have filed, but the reality is that all of that is bluffing and bluster.

She's also falling into the trap and the idea that you will roll over and die and make things easy and you guys can be just fabulous friends if you D.

My WXW did the same thing. She fed into my desire to reconcile by telling me that this would all likely just be temporary and that we could even get duplexes so we could live next door to each other.

My fault was in wanting to believe her.

The key for you is to hold your ground. Take advantage of the time when she is home to make the house a warm and inviting place. When she's home, be friendly and nice. Act like a loving husband and father.

When she tries to engage you in divorce talk, tell her, very cooly, "I won't discuss divorce. I'll talk about our marriage and how to improve it, but I will not talk divorce. If you want to talk divorce, we'll do it through attorneys. Want to watch American Idol tonight?"

An argument is only an argument if two people are engaged in the conversation. If she persists on talking divorce, simply repat the above in a very cool manner.

Expect very little in terms of response.

In fact, beat her to the punch on a few things. Have the kids all ready for bed before she shows up in the evenings so that there really is little to do other than put them to bed. Have cinnamon rolls baking on a regular basis to put that message of "home" in her senses.

But hold firm and fast. Be the lighthouse.

Exposure is exposure and you have done what you could so far.

I very strongly advise you to consult an attorney. Let him/her know you'd like to stay married but you wish to protect yourself if it comes to it. More importantly, you will want to protect your relationship with your DD.

In fact, the next time she asks you about divorce, if you can't resist engaging, simply state, "Tell you what. I'll give you a divorce if you let me keep everything and you give me sole physical and legal custody of DD. If not, then I'll only talk about divorce with my attorney."

She'll scoff, obviously, but it lets her know you're dead serious about keeping custody and fighting the D.

Look, a lot of what you're doing right now is a bluff. Will you get sole physical and legal custody? No. It is good to go into a knock out, drag out legal battle for you, your health, and your DD's college fund? No.

But your WW has to believe you aren't to be messed with and that D will suck if she goes down that path.

The alternative should be readily evident to her at all times. Be optimistic about rebuilding your marriage.

Let her know that you don't want the marriage you had before either. She says, "I don't want to be in a loveless marriage!"

You: "Me neither. That would suck. I'm sure we can rebuild a great one."

She says, "You'll be suspicious of everything!"

You respond with: "I don't want to be in that kind of marriage. I'm pretty sure we could rebuild our trust with hard work on both our parts."

Always present a positive vision of your future if it comes up. But let the stick be readily present and evident as well.

Be James Bond.

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:43 PM
You should separate your finances ASAP. Let her fund her own infidelity.

This is tough love time.

You say it's over, but don't believe it until she's given you a NC letter signed by her and reviewed by you.

Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:46 PM
OK, so do I stop telling her I would contest and just let her file, then contest? That will get expensive, quick.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:47 PM
It just seems that keeping her from filing gives me time to Plan A. Thoughts?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:50 PM
Recognize her D talk as all threat for now. It isn't real until you get served.

I would have an attorney hired and ready to counter file on the grounds of adultery and abandonment.

There is no rush in a divorce. You can drag it out for as long as you can. She's bluffing and threatening right now. It's smoke and mirrors until papers are filed.

If, however, you get wind that she's consulting attorneys, I'd beat her to the punch and file first to control the pace of the proceedings. Dragging out works in your favor. You can also withdraw your petition to divorce at the last minute, putting the entire process back in her court.

Don't file if you don't want the D unless you are absolutely certain she's going to file.

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:52 PM
In the meantime, Plan A by being a great dad and husband. Be the man she wants you to be.

Expect very little from Plan A. It's objective isn't to save the marriage necessarily, but to give the WW pleasant memories about you before you go to Plan B, where you cutoff all contact and set conditions for her to return to the marriage.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 06:57 PM
Listen to HelpTheLostDads.
Spot on !
hurray


Posted By: kaycstamper Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 07:30 PM
What would happen if he filed for D going for full custody and retaining the home? Wouldn't she then have to pay to fight it? Keep in mind that the D can be halted at any time..,
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:18 PM
Guys... just so you know the Arizona laws. Infidelity is not cause to claim full custody, nor does it factor into distribution of assets. Not allowed. It's a no fault state. I can petition for full custody, but would need to show reason (drugs, abuse, etc).
Posted By: Pepperband Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
If, however, you get wind that she's consulting attorneys, I'd beat her to the punch and file first to control the pace of the proceedings. Dragging out works in your favor. You can also withdraw your petition to divorce at the last minute, putting the entire process back in her court.

Don't file if you don't want the D unless you are absolutely certain she's going to file.

OK.
This still applies.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Until she files, it is talk.
It is a threat, but talk is not an action.

This bears repeating.

My guess? She is hoping that if she tells OM she has moved out and is in process of D, he will take her back.

She still needs time to defog. Hang in there!
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:43 PM
So, current state...

She is planning on going 3 months as is. Not sleeping in same house, but interacting for the kids. That is what I asked for as a cooling off period.

I figure I can Plan A my butt off for 3 months, right?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:44 PM
Here is something for you to think about.

Seek an order that she cannot move the childre or even take the children out of the state. That means that she will not be moving to be with OM with the children with her.

There is a price to pay for all of this and one of them is that she will be tied down by this divorce with regard to the OM.

Think about it.



God Bless,

JL
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:44 PM
Look. Adultery and repeated lighting and gaslighting you IS A FORM OF MENTAL ABUSE. Claim it if you have to.

Also, if the adultery takes her out of the family home b/c she is cheating and skaning around with a married man, then she is NOT A GOOD MOM.

See? It's all about how it's presented to the courts. Most states are no fault states. But if somebody is lying to you, daily causing you EMOTIONAL DISTRESS,t hen it is emotional abuse plain and simple.

You plan A her to death, but when she does the D talk, tell her you won't go quietly. That she will be in for a fight and she needs to UNDERSTAND this. Understand it fully.

Oh yea, maybe even mention that it would be FUN to depose the OM in this...that is exactly what the Om DOES NOT WANT AT ALL. B/c everything he would say would become part of a legal document and with his clearance he'd for sure lose that and any personal credibility.
Posted By: kaycstamper Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:49 PM
Reason: Abandonment?
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 08:52 PM
AND EMOTIONAL CRUELTY. Toss in the underlying reason of WANTON ADULTERY and you've got a slam dunk AZ.

Hey, I'd leave out the news showing the head of the IMF in a nasty personal situation...maybe also the part where it shows he has a past of indiscretions and affairs. She needs to see how the WORLD views a cheat held in a position of international security. They don't take to that well. Until they're found out that is.
Posted By: LuvsDavid Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 09:01 PM
From:http://www.divorcesupport.com/divorce/Arizona-Uncontested-Divorce-3564.html

Quote
In Arizona, all divorce actions have six steps that are as follows:

1. Filing of the divorce action in the Superior Court;
2. Serving the Respondent with the required divorce papers;
3. Filing for an Application for Default (Form 800);
4. Setting a hearing (in some counties);
5. Observing the 60-day waiting period;
6. Appearing for a court hearing or using the mail-in procedure.

Quote
In Arizona, the 60-day waiting period begins with the completion of service on the Respondent. This means that the minimum time a divorce can be made final is 61 days after the Respondent either signed the Acceptance of Service, Form 500, or was served by any other method except Service by Publication, which requires a total of 90 days from the date of first publication.


YOu have so many days after being served to contest. Sounds like you could draw it out for about 3 months after she files without you having to contest.

So, you have 6 months (if she sticks to the 3 months you agred to)to Plan A and that is all that is sugested anyway. just make sure you dont sign the form waiving the service.
Posted By: EverAfter2010 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 09:07 PM
If this man works for the govn't, heck I'd send even the President (like he'd care but don't get me started)an exposure letter and on down. somebody somewhere might not like having a known liar and cheat in a position of international relations. He'd be a walking time bomb like the guy from the Imf.
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 09:26 PM
DiZ,

Please read Humbled's thread pages 1 - 19 (will take about 25 mins), and then read TODAY'S update!! Or, if no time today, read page 1, then skip to page 19, and then read today's update. You will be amazed!
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 10:55 PM
TOday she accepted an offer at work to go to full time. I discussed with her (rationally) that I supported her decision either way, but I knew that the job she would take made her miserable in the past. That is why she left it. But she said; "I know, but I have to think of my future."

The job is 3 days, 12 hours one week, 4 days, 12 hours the next. Crappy schedule. She hated the hours and the work.

Just an update. Not sure there is anything I can do but be supportive per Plan A, right?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/16/11 11:05 PM
DIZ,

You don't understand the psychological warfare aspect of this. Figure reasons out to file for sole custody. Surely there are things she's done that can be listed. A seasoned lawyer can come up with all kinds of reasons.

The objective is to have her fear losing it all because of the affair. It has nothing to do with the reality. You won't get sole custody. But you ask for it.

And a no contest divorce assumes there won't be a fight. You WILL be fighting. You'll go for custody of your daughter. THAT is the primary motivation for you.

Your goal, if you do divorce, is 50/50 custody, but you won't get it unless you fight for it.

My friend, 90% of the battle you're fighting is psychological. There is a guy from here named Mortarman, who didn't want a D, but fought tooth and nail for custody. His wife came out of the fog when it looked like she was going to lose custody.

Many WW'es believe there are no consequences for women in the D's and in terms of custody. Courts have changed and fathers rights are recognized.

I say this to you having made tons of assumptions that I would lose as a man because I was a man. That's not the case.

I say this to you in the hopes of giving you a silver lining in all of this. One of the biggest motivators for me to try to save my marriage was the idea that I wouldn't be able to see my kids.

Well, that's not reality, and you can engage in all of this more clearly if you have hope.

The ball is actually all in your court. You can try to save things or you can go for a D. The D talk is all for your protection. I know you don't want one, but you have to protect yourself at the same time.
Posted By: Kirby Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/17/11 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
As a woman, if I wanted to divorce my H, I would not even discuss it with him.
I'd go do it.

This. When I'd had enough, I saw a lawyer. I didn't discuss it with my WH.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/18/11 11:54 AM
any changes az?
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/18/11 11:21 PM
Current status:

She says she will file for a Legal Separation this week (but costs $250, not sure she has that). Same process as a divorce (60 day wait, plus my response). Have to do all the dividing up, etc.

She says she is willing to stay in the house (separate rooms) and work on things. Willing to attend counseling and discuss our issues. Still adamant that she wants a divorce, after 3 months (which will take another 4-6 months). We are a financial wreck, so that may play into her decision. Kids are really upset, which is also weighing on her.

In the last 24 hours, she has softened considerably. Actually talks to me instead of grunts. I've seen text to her friends that say she is just going to wait out the 3 months for the kids (if we are have a "better" relationship, it will be better for them).

Should I be guardedly optimistic and continue to Plan A my but off?

By the way, it has been hard to maintain Plan A with someone that hates you, but I know that she can't keep hating someone that is sincerely trying to help her. Just hard to go day to day.

Somewhat worried because one of her bad influence friends comes back from vacation tonight. She helped hide the affair. I hope that my wife minimizes her contact with her, but afraid she will not.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/18/11 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
OK, so do I stop telling her I would contest and just let her file, then contest? That will get expensive, quick.

Down, the more difficult you make it, the less likely you will end up divorced. See, she has imagined an easy, fantasy divorce and if you give her that, or promise her that, you will end up divorced. You will jerk a knot in her tail if you paint a very ugly picture for her. PLEDGE to fight her all the way; promise to countersue on grounds of adultery and haul the OM into court to give sworn testimony. [if you live in a fault state] Describe how "discovery" will look when both she and the OM are subpoenaed for their cell phone and email records. Tell her you will go after possession of the home and primary custody of the children. Doing this will give her second thoughts about divorce.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/18/11 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
Current status:

She says she will file for a Legal Separation this week (but costs $250, not sure she has that). Same process as a divorce (60 day wait, plus my response). Have to do all the dividing up, etc.

Let her know you won't cooperate. If she files, you will countersue and it wont' be pretty. Make this very clear to her.

Quote
She says she is willing to stay in the house (separate rooms) and work on things. Willing to attend counseling and discuss our issues. Still adamant that she wants a divorce, after 3 months (which will take another 4-6 months). We are a financial wreck, so that may play into her decision. Kids are really upset, which is also weighing on her.

Tell her no thanks. You are not interested. In order to stay together in the same house, you would have to get her committment to repair the marriage. If she is not ready to do that, then you agree that separation and divorce is in order. But in order for you to be interested, tell her she will need to do a few things:

1. end her affair for life
2. commit to repairing the marriage using this program
3. live and act like a married couple, ie: sleeping together and going out together - no going out alone

See, what she is attempting to do here is to set this up so she can sleep in the back bedroom, carry on like an alley cat in heat [by pronouncing herself "separated,"]for a few months. By then, she can get you kicked out and since she went to "counseling" a few times, she can tell others she "tried."

Quote
In the last 24 hours, she has softened considerably. Actually talks to me instead of grunts. I've seen text to her friends that say she is just going to wait out the 3 months for the kids (if we are have a "better" relationship, it will be better for them).

It won't get better unless there is a plan. It will not get better by magic. Having no plan is a plan to FAIL. If there is no viable plan along with a committment you are facing a death of a thousand cuts.

I think you are being you are being set up and your wife is not really interested in recovery.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Down_in_Az
She says she is willing to stay in the house (separate rooms) and work on things. Willing to attend counseling and discuss our issues. Still adamant that she wants a divorce, after 3 months (which will take another 4-6 months). We are a financial wreck, so that may play into her decision. Kids are really upset, which is also weighing on her.

Most marriage counselors are actually divorce facilitators who will help your wife realize her current feelings du jour. MC don't understand infidelity so if your wife is in the fog, they will help her take action [destroy your marriage] based on those fleeting feelings. Marriage counselors are very destructive to marriage and it is not uncommon for them to recommend marriage wrecking things like separation, divorce, continued contact with affair partners, the list goes on and on. And when a wayward gets validation for wrecking their marriage, there is no stopping it.

If you are going to do counseling you had better spend your ONE SHOT with someone who knows what they are doing and that is Steve Harley. He does understand infidelity and he does understand wayward bullcrap.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 12:38 PM
What Melody said. All of it. Read it over and over.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 01:59 PM
Yep.I know its tough AZ. But to reinforce what you need to tell your WW that are your requirements. YOUR CONDITIONS ARE...(calmly but assertive)
1. end her affair for life
2. commit to repairing the marriage using this program
3. live and act like a married couple
OR GET YOUR STUFF AND LEAVE ALL BY YOURSELF and I will be filing for Sole custody, child support and all marital assets on the grounds of mental abuse. (who cares if you can or cant let her figure that out)(then Honey I love you and we can make this work if we follow a plan, I dont want a divorce or a separation I want to restore love to our M. Now would you like some of your favorite cheese cake I made it freshly just for you) Smile, cool and calmly.
Remember its a war. Psychologically tactically a war. You may have to bluff but have a plan if the bluff has to become more.
The OM is oversees and probably has a pit the size of the sea in his stomach knowing he is in jeopardy. He has put his career in danger for a fling. If you have quit applying your anger out on him then renew that anger. Finish this POSOM off and dont let him get away with what he helped do to your family. The more fear you can give him about his career the better. I hope this has already been done as it will anger WW again if not, which will also let you know if there is contact. Thus the consequences of trickle exposure. But she cant run to him easily for ENs to be met. And if he fears losing his GOV clearance he will gladly forget your WW ever existed. Then you have an even better chance of this working. But you have to ensure he is GONE GONE GONE.
Melody/Others Please chime in if you dont agree with exposure continuance. I can be quite aggressive with POSOM. My WW taught me that.
Posted By: fight4life Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 02:09 PM
don't get played here, she is not offering you a thing. She is simply trying to engineer free room and board until she is prepared to leave you.

She carefully constructed a scenario where she is ready to pack her bags today and wants you to believe that she will follow thru if you don't accept her offer of basically nothing. Even if she actually leaves its better than what she has put out there - a boardinghouse marriage and counseling as way to pass time. Go pound salt - that should be your answer.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
I hope this has already been done as it will anger WW again if not, which will also let you know if there is contact. Thus the consequences of trickle exposure. But she cant run to him easily for ENs to be met. And if he fears losing his GOV clearance he will gladly forget your WW ever existed. Then you have an even better chance of this working. But you have to ensure he is GONE GONE GONE.
Melody/Others Please chime in if you dont agree with exposure continuance. I can be quite aggressive with POSOM. My WW taught me that.

This is an excellent point. DowninAz, have you exposed the OM to the workplace and to his family? If not, you need to put the hammer down on him. I have a feeling you are being played here and that there is a plan in the works for your wife to ease you out quietly and peacefully so she can ease him in. Her "plan" to move into the back bedroom and go to "counseling" to see how she feels in 3 months is a set up for failure and I don't think that is an accident. I think it is part of a bigger plan. You have a chance to save your marriage if you blow up that plan.

This is why you should not be going along with HER plan, but your own. Expose the OM completely and fully and go to your wife and tell her you won't cooperate with the live-in-the-guestroom plan, but will only participate in YOUR PLAN.
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 02:20 PM
I agree with continued exposure.

My last WWex put a 6 month timeline after DD day. She stopped contact as far as I knew. But she did not do anything to help recover the marriage during the 6 months.

Don't mention the timeline. You don't have to accept it. Require her to work on the marriage. Get her to start reading SAA. Don't go to MC's. They will support the timeline.
Posted By: kaycstamper Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/19/11 10:52 PM
Too often the WW is in the driver's seat because the BS is afraid of upsetting the apple cart, instead settling for crumbs. That is a BIG mistake. Listen to what the others have said here. Only if the affair is busted and she is working on your M do you have a chance of recovery. YOU come up with YOUR terms and don't agree to anything less!
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/20/11 03:49 PM
AZ whats up Bro? How are you and the kids?
Posted By: Cypress Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/26/11 01:48 PM
Hey AZ how about an update
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 05/26/11 01:57 PM
Im truly sorry he seems to be gone. I will pray for you and your family AZ.
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/03/11 11:09 PM
Sorry guys, has been a long, stressful time.

Update: WW has had not contact, that I can tell (very closely monitor, I am 99.9% sure). OM is out of the picture.

We are still living together, working on Plan A. Sleep in same room. No physical contact, but relationship is very amicable. When forced withe decision to move out or work on our marriage, she chose the latter.

It's been three weeks since she last had contact with OM.Still confesses that she does not have the same feelings for me ("in love"), but I attribute to the fog? It has seem to be getting to be a warmer relationship. Is this about normal?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/03/11 11:12 PM
DIA,

Yes it is normal. She will go through withdrawal much like a drug addict and that can take a few months.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Down_in_Az Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/03/11 11:18 PM
So, I continue plan A, and just ignore the fact that we have no physical relationship. Does that just come with time, or do I bring that up later?

I can deal with it, just not sure what the process should be. We have come pretty far in 1-2 weeks, so I assume that another month or two could bring lots of changes.
Posted By: Scotland Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/04/11 12:03 AM
You need to get her on board with recovery. Plan A time is over. You Plan A while the A is still on-going and if it is over, then it is time that you guys get working on recovery.

Has she sent a NC letter? Has she put in any EPs?

Can you get her on the phone with the coaching center?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/06/11 03:37 PM
I caution you on getting into the amicable divorce trap. I went for it myself. A WW will try to assuage her guilt by being nice and friendly to you, even showing some signs of empathy now and then, while going on friendly dates with you while telling you, at the same time, that it�s over and you guys are better off doing things in a friendly way for the good of the kids.

Been there, done that.

The main thing you need to do in all of this is express a constant level of confidence that you can recover your marriage and refuse to engage in any dialog regarding a divorce.

Any talk of divorce should be deflected and you should be 100% clear to your WW that divorce won�t be either friendly or nice and that you will fight tooth and nail for everything.

Make the path of divorce look hard while making the path to recovery look better.
Posted By: Send me on my way Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/07/11 02:35 AM
its funny, I have not been back in years. Listen AZ, they're giving you pretty sound advice
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/07/11 02:25 PM
Call up the coaching center (link at the top) and make an appt. Invite her to the appt. If she refuses, take the appt alone.

Steve in particular is really great at coaching BSs in how to get FWSs on board with the MB program.

Please don't try to recover on your own. It's almost always a disaster. You really need a plan.
Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/07/11 02:50 PM
Az Im glad you updated smile

When forced withe decision to move out or work on our marriage, she chose the latter Ok I am assuming you mean she choses to "work on the M?"
But she is not on board with any plan yet? Does she expects your M to be driven by intuition? Many way-wards do. She is also still sounding foggy. Unrepentant spouse's are problematic in many ways. Sometimes as the fog lifts that changes, others go on to never recovering and end up right back here (im proof in the pudding)returning to a PRE A state of there M and usually another Affair.
I suggest you start dripping some "ideas" on her if you aren't willing to demand a plan to recover yet. But make no mistake sooner or later you have to set that bar.
If you have discussed emotional needs with her and she understands them then whats her problem with fulfilling YOURS? As a man I can say I could only take no SF for a limited time before my love bank gets really low. Also I want to point out that it can sometimes be a sign of an ongoing A that has went underground if she is unwilling to meet at least some SF needs on occasion.
Ok lets talk about demands for a second. There are 2 types of demands. Selfish demand benefit only one while unselfish demands benefit the mass. Unselfish demands are not love busters. So dripping "Ideas" (unselfish demands) can start taking place even in the fog.
POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT. I would ask her to agree to it to set the stage for unselfish demands. Print it and give it to her and then read it together. Give her all kinds of the benefits it would have for her and the M. Then ask her to agree with it. If she does the stage has been set.
His Needs Her Needs go hand in hand with POJA. If she agrees to POJA then you can ask her to agree on just about every topic that will come up regarding your M. " Honey I have a need for sex with you and to hold you close to my heart. I dont feel we have been meeting that need. I suggest we set some time apart to meet that need for us tomorrow evening. Or is there a better time for us to work on that? If she balks remind her of the POJA and that you dont agree. This can be applied to everything. From dinner to sex. wink
"Time" recovering from this and building a great M can take years. Its so complex that it has to be done in baby steps, so patience is a huge virtue. (LOL @MYSELF, im not really a patient man) But I have had to learn to be patient.
AZ dont settle for just going back to the old M. Practice what you have learned dont just preach it. YET. But sooner or later you will have to raise that bar for yourself not her. For now see if time helps with the foggy not in love with you crapola.



Posted By: Hilsmon Re: 3 weeks into the nightmare - 06/23/11 07:58 PM
AZ????
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