Marriage Builders
15 years together.

12 years Married.

We fought her "Ex" for 10 years over her (our) Daughter.

We lost our Business due to the economy.

I had to retrain to get employment.

My wife got cancer........her hysterectomy.......resultant hormone crash.

My wife was wrongly fired from her job JUST AFTER getting back on her feet after the hysterectomy.

I failed her on many issues.

11 months of unemployment for her.

FINALLY she gets a DREAM JOB.

Our Daughter graduates with her RN degree and is employed and on her own.

Empty Nest syndrome sets in when Daughter leaves.

Daughter informs me that my wife had an affair last year.

I tried MANY times to talk to my Wife about our issues and I just get the glassy eye stare.

And I'm alone......
Posted By: Retread Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/08/11 02:42 AM
I initiated a thread on "Grey Divorce" a month or so ago.
I think the impact of hormone levels falling in women (and men) is something very powerful, and overlooked or brushed aside by many family physicians, and even more so by counselors, clergy, and those actually experiencing the mood swings caused by hormone decreases. This is usually a slow and subtle change, but it is really evident in sudden changes due to medication side effects, or surgeries like hysterectomy or treatments for prostate cancer. The person affected wants to deny that it is within them, and seeks an external cause. Their change of feelings towards their spouse is interpreted as being caused by their spouse.

Also, the "empty nest effect" is evident to many husbands, but seems to be just as denied by wives and therapists.

The other side of that is the husband who retires (or is laid off) and suddenly feels a loss of identity, and the other problems that brings with it.
I'm very sorry you have reason to join us here.

First, I'd suggest you click "notify" and get this thread moved to the "Surviving An Affair" board.

Second, can you give us a bit more information of the "...Goodbye" in your title? Specifically, where are you in relation to your WW and your home?
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
I'm very sorry you have reason to join us here.

First, I'd suggest you click "notify" and get this thread moved to the "Surviving An Affair" board.

Second, can you give us a bit more information of the "...Goodbye" in your title? Specifically, where are you in relation to your WW and your home?

Ditto
Posted By: reading Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/08/11 03:59 AM
I am so sorry for all the challenging stuff you have dealt with.

I do not believe that mid life causes the distance with couples. Hormones, scary health crisis, unemployement, deaths of loved ones are awful but not the reason either.

Not meeting all five most important emotional needs is the crux of it.

No one knows about the five needs though til something like this happens and they make it over to Marriage Builders and they study up on them.

Stick around and work through this with us
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
....can you give us a bit more information of the "...Goodbye" in your title? Specifically, where are you in relation to your WW and your home?

I have tried over the last 18 months to speak in depth with my Wife about our issues......each and every time she shuts down and gives me the glassy eye look.

I would try every technique I know to reach her.....every avenue......every method......nothing.

Finally I tried to shock her.....I said "Honey, I have only two options open to me, live each day with a woman who I am madly and passionately in Love with but wants nothing to to do with me, or we can separate."

We separated 2 months ago. She lives in an apartment.....I live in the home.

This last weekend was our 12th Anniversary......I asked her to dinner for our Anniversary on Sat, 7/2.....she accepted......I played my cards for reunification......she calmly rejected it.

"Then please leave me alone!?".....I asked....."I am a Husband, I don't want to be just a friend!"

The next day, 7/3 I get a text message asking if I was OK......I curtly responded and left it at that.

The 3rd day, 7/4, I get a chat on the computer from my wife......"What are you doing for the 4th of July?"

I got angry and called her to ask her what was she doing by rejecting me one day and then continuing to call me......this lead to a 3 hour telephone call that resulted in her admitting to the affair......I thought we had made some incredible breakthroughs!

Today our daughter had some out-patient surgery and we were at our daughters apartment after the surgery tending to her needs.......I attempted to continue our discussion and breakthrough.......it failed......I was rejected yet again

I ended the contact with my wife by saying "I am all in or I'm all out in this marriage, I thought you had begun to wake up after our 3 hour phone episide!.....I offered to begin to reconcile again today but you rejected me yet again, from this point LEAVE ME ALONE!.....I love you but GOODBYE!"

And I left.......as God is my witness I have tried EVERYTHING.

I cannot do anymore!

I LOVE HER......but I'm not a doormat either.

Her ENTIRE family sees the dysfunction in her too.

I just don't know what else to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by reading
Not meeting all five most important emotional needs is the crux of it.

No one knows about the five needs though til something like this happens and they make it over to Marriage Builders and they study up on them.

Stick around and work through this with us

A friend suggested "HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS" to me and reading it was like a Lightning bolt to me.......I suggested that she read it and her response was "The answer to our problems isn't in a stupid book! NO I'm not reading it!"
First off all, you need to calm down and cure yourself of your recto-cranial inversion.

Having angry outbursts is going to do nothing to win your wife over for reconciliation.

Secondly, you need to confirm that she isn't still actively in contact with her affair partner. Trying to talk "sense" to the senseless wayward is a waste of time and energy.

Begin gathering intelligence as to her dealings, and see if she is still in contact with her affair partner.
I'm assuming that you're on this website because your last line: I just don't know what else to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is an admission, but also a request for help. Okay let's start at the top.

MOVE BACK HOME. TODAY. Stop pouting, and start understanding that this situation is not irretrieveable. Repairing a ruptured marriage requires one partner to start doing the heavy lifting, and doing it from afar is not possible. (Eventually, the burden will shift to her, but right now it's going to be yours.)

ORDER SURVIVING AN AFFAIR AND HIS NEEDS / HER NEEDS FROM THE BOOKSTORE ON THIS WEBSITE. You're someday going to realize that they were the most valuable books you will have ever read.

It's after midnight here in old New York, and I'm going to bed. You should too. You're going to have a BUSY day tomorrow as the rest of the regulars dive in.

See you then.......

ETA: GOOD - you have HN/HN. Start memorizing it.
Bill, welcome to Marriage Builders. I suspect the problem is that she is still active in her affair. Are you snooping on her? Who is the OM? Is he married?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
[

I have tried over the last 18 months to speak in depth with my Wife about our issues......each and every time she shuts down and gives me the glassy eye look.

The reason she wouldn't speak to you is because she is in an affair. THAT is the issue. An affair operates the same as an addiction to narcotics, in that it causes tremendous fog and emotional detachement. That is what you saw when you attempted to speak to her.

The solution is therefore, to kill off the affair. I don't know if that is possible in your situation because this has gone on so long, but I would bet there is a lot you can do to damage the affair.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
A friend suggested "HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS" to me and reading it was like a Lightning bolt to me.......I suggested that she read it and her response was "The answer to our problems isn't in a stupid book! NO I'm not reading it!"


Bill, one that you might find more relevant is Dr Harley's Surviving an Affair. It is much more comprehensive and goes well into the dynamics of an affair.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
MOVE BACK HOME. TODAY.

He is in his home.

I agree with ML - she is still in her affair - you need to snoop for evidence.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
MOVE BACK HOME. TODAY. Stop pouting, and start understanding that this situation is not irretrieveable. Repairing a ruptured marriage requires one partner to start doing the heavy lifting, and doing it from afar is not possible. (Eventually, the burden will shift to her, but right now it's going to be yours.)

I AM home.......it is she who moved to an apartment.

As for the heavy lifting......I thought I'd been doing that for the last 2 years?!?!

Additional Info: She has been sleeping less than 4 hours per night for 4 years since her uterine cancer/hysterectomy (July 2007) and has dramatic night sweats.
I had surmised that her hormones were getting out of bounds about 2 years ago and FINALLY got her to have her physician check her hormone levels.....they were abnormal.
She got a hormone supplement but refused to take them for almost 3 months.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Bill, welcome to Marriage Builders. I suspect the problem is that she is still active in her affair. Are you snooping on her? Who is the OM? Is he married?

I recently confronted him......she claims it's over.......whether it's the truth or not......??????
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Bill, welcome to Marriage Builders. I suspect the problem is that she is still active in her affair. Are you snooping on her? Who is the OM? Is he married?

I recently confronted him......she claims it's over.......whether it's the truth or not......??????

It's not over, Bill. That is obvious to us. Who is he? Is he married?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Bill, welcome to Marriage Builders. I suspect the problem is that she is still active in her affair. Are you snooping on her? Who is the OM? Is he married?

I recently confronted him......she claims it's over.......whether it's the truth or not......??????

It's not over, Bill. That is obvious to us. Who is he? Is he married?

He's someone she has known for over 20 years......and I am embarrassed to say that he is 25+ years older than she is.....my wife is 42 and he is in his late 60's!
He IS married and has adult children.
Should I contact HIS wife with the info?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
[

He's someone she has known for over 20 years......and I am embarrassed to say that he is 25+ years older than she is.....my wife is 42 and he is in his late 60's!
He IS married and has adult children.
Should I contact HIS wife with the info?

Oh yes. The affair should be exposed to everyone. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure is ruinous. Expose first to his wife, then all of your parents, children, close friends and family. Tell his adult children too. I would do this tomorrow, all on the same day, WITHOUT WARNING.
Does this scumbag have a facebook page? If so, I would go copy and paste all his friends into a WORD doc and plan on exposing to his fb friends by sending them a private message. We have a template you can use.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
[
He IS married and has adult children.
Should I contact HIS wife with the info?

Oh yes. The affair should be exposed to everyone. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure is ruinous. Expose first to his wife, then all of your parents, children, close friends and family. Tell his adult children too. I would do this tomorrow, all on the same day, WITHOUT WARNING.

Ok......so I'm to expose this affair to his wife and children?
How?......letter?.......Phone?......Email?
What are the legal ramifications to me?
Legal charges of Harassment?
My head is swimming.....and very foggy!
Exposure means to inform about the truth. No badmouthing, judging, no emotions.

Just facts:
- your wife and her husband are having an affair
- you are ready to present proof if asked

The best possible way is to call. Then there is no chance that OM can intercept the email or letter.

I do not believe there is a state in US where speaking truth has legal ramifications. How can you harass with truth, think about it?
You want to perform an exposure to EVERYONE who might eventually ally with you (and presumably, his BW) in convincing the APs that their illicit actions are not acceptable.

So, the group would include, on your WW's side: her family (sisters are REALLY good here); her girlfriends; her old school chums; her clergy; her hairdresser (my particular favorite - how many tongues will that start wagging?); any social groups she is involved in.

You should do the same for POSOM's side - business associates, fraternal orders, more clergy, etc, etc. (Grown children, you say? Does that imply GRANDCHILDREN, who would be devastated to learn PopPop is catting around on NaNa?)

You are NOT going to be a nice person in this. You will find, however, that this is the single biggest thing you can do to save your marriage. WW will likely go ballistic. Good! At least she'll find another emotion than a glassy-eyed stare.

Other folks here hate when I use this allusion, but it serves. Remember that the life your wife had been living led to her affair. You job now is to ruin that life.

One thing that you did not reveal - Does your WW have a paying job? If not, cut off her funds - 100% - so she can't pay the rent on her little love-nest.

As a cancer survivor, btw, I can assure you that her surgery is NOT a reason for shacking up with another man.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
[

Ok......so I'm to expose this affair to his wife and children?
How?......letter?.......Phone?......Email?
What are the legal ramifications to me?
Legal charges of Harassment?
My head is swimming.....and very foggy!

Why would there be legal ramifications to YOU? There may be legal ramifications for the OM and your wife. Is that what you mean? If you live in the US, we have freedom to tell truth here.

I would CALL the OM's wife and tell her about the affair. Give her your full name and contact information. Send emails to the OM's children and family members and friends on facebook.

CALL your children and close family members and tell them about the affair. Ask them all to use their influence to persuade the infidels to end their affair. If this is a workplace affair then it should be exposed via a letter to Human Resources.

Bill, I will be honest and just tell you I don't have high hopes for your marriage. The reason is because you have enabled this for a very long time. You have not fought for your marriage and your complacency has given your wife the impression that you don't care very much. If there is any hope AT ALL it will result from exposing this affair wide and far. Like Dr Harley says, it is very hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler.

Exposure is the most effective weapon we have against an affair. Most of us in recovered marriages saved our marriages by exposing the affair. Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, says this about exposure:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery.
here

And listen to this radio clip and another man in your same position: listen here
Who is paying for her love nest? Does she have her own job? Who is fiancing her affair?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Who is paying for her love nest? Does she have her own job? Who is fiancing her affair?

She is financially self-sufficient.

Yes, I enabled this......I see that now. frown

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Who is paying for her love nest? Does she have her own job? Who is fiancing her affair?

She is financially self-sufficient.

Yes, I enabled this......I see that now. frown

You might not realize that being complacent sends the message that you don't care very much. Men who don't fight for their marriages send 2 messages: 1. I don't CARE and 2. I am a wimp. That is very unattractive to women and only serves to make the OM look BETTER.

We can help you pull this off. It won't be easy but you have a chance of saving this if you will expose. I don't predict her affair will stop immediately, but it WILL hasten its death. You will cause enormous conflict in the affair and the OM will eventually dump her. He is not going to lose his marriage over some cheap piece of fun and will dump her if you turn up the heat on him. As the affair crumbles, you will be positioned to be that soft landing place and we can help you with a reconciliation.

Did you listen to the radio clip?
What does this bum do? Do they work together?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You might not realize that being complacent sends the message that you don't care very much. Men who don't fight for their marriages send 2 messages: 1. I don't CARE and 2. I am a wimp. That is very unattractive to women and only serves to make the OM look BETTER.

We can help you pull this off. It won't be easy but you have a chance of saving this if you will expose. I don't predict her affair will stop immediately, but it WILL hasten its death. You will cause enormous conflict in the affair and the OM will eventually dump her. He is not going to lose his marriage over some cheap piece of fun and will dump her if you turn up the heat on him. As the affair crumbles, you will be positioned to be that soft landing place and we can help you with a reconciliation.

Did you listen to the radio clip?

Not yet.....I'm so mind-fogged from lack of sleep I can hardly comprehend human speech.
I am taking lorazepam right now to try to sleep.....didn't get a wink of sleep last night and took the day off from work to rest and hopefully get a few hours of sleep.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
What does this bum do? Do they work together?

He's an Orthodontist.....they knew each other years before I came along.
Exposing the affair could impact his practice! hurray
How about getting some sleep and then coming back here so we can help you do some work? Did you go to the OM's facebook page and copy all his contacts into a WORD doc?
His Facebook Page doesn't have a list of friends.....not a lot of activity just a few posts.

OK.......got a few hours sleep.......I'm beginning to feel real again.

School me on the plan to attack this affair. I'm going now to read the link you sent about exposure.
I'm ready for HARD BALL.....what have I got to lose?
He has NO FRIENDS???
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
School me on the plan to attack this affair. I'm going now to read the link you sent about exposure.
I'm ready for HARD BALL.....what have I got to lose?

You have everything to GAIN and you might get your wife back. This is how most of us saved our marriages. Start by making up a list of key targets. Gather their phone #'s, emails, etc. Then come back and we can discuss contact methods and talking points.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
He has NO FRIENDS???

Not listed on his page......want me to PM the page link?
He must have them hidden. But you can see his wall?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
He must have them hidden. But you can see his wall?

Yes
Anything interesting there? Do you see any posts from family members, friends? Are you putting together an exposure list?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Anything interesting there? Do you see any posts from family members, friends? Are you putting together an exposure list?

So far all I have is his wife's name, his childrens names, and they are all listed at the same address. This guy is in his late 60's so his kids are adults but may, or may not, be living at home.
Can you find facebook pages for his children? Also, try and do a whitepages search for them and see if you can get an address.

That might be a good enough list to expose to the OM's side. One more thing I would suggest is going on his professional website and looking to see if you can find email addressess for his office staff.

Here is how this should play out.

1. call your phone call targets starting with the OM's wife. Tell her about the affair, state your evidence [let's discuss] and offer to meet with her later to give her any solid evidence you have. Offer her your phone # and name for followup. GIVE HER YOUR WIFE'S CELL PHONE #. We want her to call your wife.

Next, call up your wife's parents and tell them about the affair. Tell them you love your wife and want to save your marriage. Ask them for their advice <-----real important because you want their buy in. And ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair.

With that out of the way, move onto phase 2, which is the email list. I would make up a list of those you want to email, ie: OM's children, your wife's close friends and family [excluding her parents, who should get a phone call] and send them all an email. The email should go something like this:

Dear friends and family, you were chosen to recieve this email because you are an important person to Sally and I. It is because of this that I am writing to ask for your support in saving my marriage. I love Sally with all my heart and soul and do not want our marriage and family to break up.

Sally has left me and the children to pursue her affair with a married man, Dr Joe Scumbag, a practicing dentist in Timbuktu. This affair has been going on for 1 and a half years. This has broken my heart and the heart of our children.

I ask that you use your influence to persuade Sally to end her affair with Joe Scumbag. I am hopeful that someone might be able to get through to her.

We love you all and thank you for your support,

Bill and children

When you are done here, sit your kids down and tell them all about the affair. Explain to them WHY adultery is immoral and that their mother is breaking up the family for her affair. Tell them the OM's name and inform them that he is a BAD MAN and they are to never be around him. If she EVER brings that bast*rd around they are to call you immediately.
If you can find facebook pages for his kids I would send them a private message like this:

Dear Joe, it with sadness that I send you this message but I believe since this affects you, that you have a right to know the truth. Your father, Dr Scumbag, is having an affair with my wife of 15 years, Sally Brown. This affair has been going on for since XX-XXXX and my wife has now left me and my children for your father.

If you have any influence with your father, I would use it to persuade him to stop his reckless behavior. Their actions threaten to destroy 2 families. I hope that can be stopped.

My deepest sympathy,

Mr BC, husband of SC and father of Sue and Paul, ages 7 and 5
If you can get email addresses to his office staff, I would expose there too.

This should all be done on the SAME DAY to get the maximum effect and to prevent them from pre-empting you. There should be NO FOREWARNING.

Your wife will start getting calls from people and she will call you up in an absolute FURY. Just expect that. Don't answer the phone until you are completely finished with exposures. In fact, you might let her go crazy for a few hours before you talk to her.

When you talk to her, just let her know that you felt everyone should know about her affair. Let her know you have exposed to the OM's family, office staff, her parents, friends and family AND her children. Tell her they are all awaiting her explanation for her affair.

She will rant and rave and threaten divorce "I was going to give you a chance but now I am filing for divorce...." blah, blah, blah, yip and yappola.. DO NOT LET IT BOTHER you one bit. It is just the crazy ranting of a fogged out affair addict. Her anger will blow over. \

Don't fight, cower, cringe or try to reason [you can't reason with a falling down drunk] Just say, "so sorry you are upset!" And if she gets abusive, just tell her "have to run, hon!" smile

Got that? Any questions?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Can you find facebook pages for his children? Also, try and do a whitepages search for them and see if you can get an address.

I will begin a search.

Quote
1. call your phone call targets starting with the OM's wife. Tell her about the affair, state your evidence [let's discuss] and offer to meet with her later to give her any solid evidence you have. Offer her your phone # and name for followup. GIVE HER YOUR WIFE'S CELL PHONE #. We want her to call your wife.

It was actually my daughter who told me about the OM, my daughter found a chat box open on the computer where my wife and the OM were "sexting" each other. My wife convinced our own daughter (age 21 and in college at the time) to withold this info from me. So a year later my daughter tells me!
I confront my wife who finally confesses to it AFTER we separated.
So, all the evidence I have is my Daughters testimony to the sexting and her own Mothers lies......and my own Wifes confession.

Quote
Next, call up your wife's parents and tell them about the affair. Tell them you love your wife and want to save your marriage. Ask them for their advice <-----real important because you want their buy in. And ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair.

I'm close to her Parents, but I'm fully aware when the fur flies......my Wife may get their support.
I have communicated to them the FACT of the affair and their daughters own confession. They tell me they will support my fight for for their daughter.

Quote
With that out of the way, move onto phase 2, which is the email list. I would make up a list of those you want to email, ie: OM's children, your wife's close friends and family [excluding her parents, who should get a phone call] and send them all an email. The email should go something like this:

Dear friends and family, you were chosen to recieve this email because you are an important person to Sally and I. It is because of this that I am writing to ask for your support in saving my marriage. I love Sally with all my heart and soul and do not want our marriage and family to break up.

Sally has left me and the children to pursue her affair with a married man, Dr Joe Scumbag

I LIKE IT!!!
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If you can get email addresses to his office staff, I would expose there too.

This should all be done on the SAME DAY to get the maximum effect and to prevent them from pre-empting you. There should be NO FOREWARNING.

Your wife will start getting calls from people and she will call you up in an absolute FURY. Just expect that. Don't answer the phone until you are completely finished with exposures. In fact, you might let her go crazy for a few hours before you talk to her.

When you talk to her, just let her know that you felt everyone should know about her affair. Let her know you have exposed to the OM's family, office staff, her parents, friends and family AND her children. Tell her they are all awaiting her explanation for her affair.

She will rant and rave and threaten divorce "I was going to give you a chance but now I am filing for divorce...." blah, blah, blah, yip and yappola.. DO NOT LET IT BOTHER you one bit. It is just the crazy ranting of a fogged out affair addict. Her anger will blow over. \

Don't fight, cower, cringe or try to reason [you can't reason with a falling down drunk] Just say, "so sorry you are upset!" And if she gets abusive, just tell her "have to run, hon!" smile

Got that? Any questions?

GOT IT!!

Melody: It looks like you've been doing this for awhile?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
It was actually my daughter who told me about the OM, my daughter found a chat box open on the computer where my wife and the OM were "sexting" each other. My wife convinced our own daughter (age 21 and in college at the time) to withold this info from me. So a year later my daughter tells me!
I confront my wife who finally confesses to it AFTER we separated.
So, all the evidence I have is my Daughters testimony to the sexting and her own Mothers lies......and my own Wifes confession.

That is MUCHO evidence. Your wife's confession is plenty enough.

Quote
I'm close to her Parents, but I'm fully aware when the fur flies......my Wife may get their support.
I have communicated to them the FACT of the affair and their daughters own confession. They tell me they will support my fight for for their daughter.

Hopefully they REALLY do support her and will not support her in a sleazy affair.

What about your little kids? Do they live with you?

Also, I would cruise by her apartment tonight with a camera and see if you can get some pictures. Can you afford to a hire a PI for a day? If not, you might be able to catch the OM over there yourself. That would be a really good piece of evidence.

When will you be ready to do this?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
GOT IT!!

Melody: It looks like you've been doing this for awhile?

Yes Sir! grin
There are no other children.....our one and only is 23.

My wife witnessed her own mothers infidelity when my wife was a teenager. My wife claimed it was a cruel way to treat her children.......now my wife has become what she claimed she hated.

My wife is traveling on business next week......I'd like to do this when she's out of town.
Sound OK?
Posted By: Gamma Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/08/11 10:57 PM
BC,

and I am embarrassed to say that he is 25+ years older than she is.....my wife is 42 and he is in his late 60's!

Yea I heard that, OM4 was 85 in my case, my guess is that he is a practiced hand at affairs and has a good many under his belt, you will be doing OMW a big favor by bringing this one to the light.

His grand-children may be on facebook too, and might be adults.

Also try.

www.zabasearch.com
www.anywho.com
www.veromi.net people search
www.reversephonedetective.com
www.ussearch.com
www.spokeo.com

Some of these will shown relatives or probable relatives.

God Bless
Gamma

PS OM4 was also a heath professional, I sometimes get the impression that they think side action is an entitlement of theirs.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
There are no other children.....our one and only is 23.

My wife witnessed her own mothers infidelity when my wife was a teenager. My wife claimed it was a cruel way to treat her children.......now my wife has become what she claimed she hated.

My wife is traveling on business next week......I'd like to do this when she's out of town.
Sound OK?

Perfect!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
There are no other children.....our one and only is 23.

doh2 For some reason I was thinking they were 5 and 7. Oh well, change the letter to read 23 year old daughter. And also, after you expose you can call your DD, tell her you have blown up her mothers affair and give her a heads up. Just let her know your strategy. Tell her AFTER you have exposed so she doesn't warn your wife.

BC, quickly look back at your opening note in this thread. Now consider your current position and intentions. Do you see the difference? You got suckered in by the emasculating societal constructs that equate conflict with evil, and acquiescence with civilzed behavior. You have now been exposed to the understanding that conflict WITH evil is the only true form of civilized behavior possible.

Put together your evidence file, and both sets of contact lists. Then do what must be done.

FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION - get yourself a mini-audio recorder. Have it with you at all times, and "on" as soon as your formerly glassy-eyed WW becomes the generic screaming banshee bi+ch that appears after exposure.

That is the time when your fortitude and resolve will be tested. Fortitude to understand that what you will have done is in the right, and resolve not to respond in anger and retaliation. Trust me, the law-enforcement goons will love to slap the cuffs on you, whether or not WW's "complaint" has any validity.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
You got suckered in by the emasculating societal constructs that equate conflict with evil, and acquiescence with civilzed behavior. You have now been exposed to the understanding that conflict WITH evil is the only true form of civilized behavior possible.

t/j I am glad to know you. smile
Bill, what is her marital history? Has she ever had an affair before?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Bill, what is her marital history? Has she ever had an affair before?

She was married the 1st time at 19 years of age because she got pregnant........1st husband was a redneck...and that ended badly...I recently found out she has cheated before I was anywhere around.
Took some meds last night.

Got the best sleep I've had in WEEKS!!

Going back to the snooping today.

I begin exposing the affair next week!!!.......whether it's over or not!!!
Bill, your attitude tells me you will be a great snooper and prob do a great exposure job. It's massively empowering and hits the affair in the gut.

Something tells me you would also like the art of war - read it! Theres also a great thread on here about using the art of war to break up adultery. Will try find it again...
IVe bumped art of war....
Originally Posted by indiegirl
IVe bumped art of war....

Indiegirl: THANK YOU...... wink

I'm calling the OMW next week......I'm having difficulty finding ANY OTHER people outside of his office staff to contact and children that seem to appear to live at the same residence that he and his wife occupy.
I've already told her parents.

I've already told our daughter.

I will tell our friends face to face, but don't know what to say to do this exposure in the proper way.
A part of me wants to use words like "knife in the back with her hand on it!"........or "Lowlife Tramp"......but I know that 's NOT the way to proceed.

So what do I say?

Next week I call the OMW and the kids they have!!!

Help me with those words too please!?!?!
I will bow to the vets opinion, but keep it snappy, easy to remember. Stick to the facts, throw in a fact that shows how very ugly it is though! Impress on them you are doing everything you can to get through to her. She wil try to paint you as the bad guy. Face to face is good, but I found doing facebook first, copying in everyone I could think of, was good, because then when going face to face, it cut down on explanations. If thats not a possibility, maybe write down a few pars, like a script then hit the phones.

We need to get you an exmple or template, going to look
Posted By: Tanam Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/10/11 11:55 AM
Bill,

stick to the facts, don't get nasty, stress you would like their support and that you would love to make this work.

Check out Melody Lane's posts, she is the most likely to have written it lots of times!!

and breathe, look after your health, eat, sleep go for a walk. This is a tough road but the support and help are here.

Thinkin of you today across the pond!
Originally Posted by indiegirl
We need to get you an exmple or template, going to look

And THANK YOU!

I'm not too "Facebook Oriented"......how do I copy all my Wife's friends to a WORD document?
Originally Posted by Tanam
...and breathe, look after your health, eat, sleep go for a walk. This is a tough road but the support and help are here.

Thinkin of you today across the pond!

THANK YOU so much!

I'm 20 pounds lighter in the last 4 weeks......forced to uses meds to sleep.

BUT I WANT TO FIGHT FOR MY WIFE!!!!
This is an email Melody Lane recommended someone use, its a now separated couple, so similar to you.

Would email work for you? If not just call people or go round to see, when you've got your script down pat.


Mel's email suggestion is as follows, dont think its too hard to adapt to your circumstances. Oh and definitely include the line you said on here about fighting for your wife.

It will get you tonnes of support and should your wife read or hear of it, will go down well too.

Women find it VERY SEXY when their husbands fight for them.

-------------------------
Dear friends and family, I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of x and I. As some of you know, x has recently asked me for a divorce, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I have discovered that the reason is because he has been carrying on an affair with someone who resides on XXX estate. The purpose of the separation is so the affair can carry on without my interference. x has tried to claim that the affair began AFTER I left for Australia, but this is not true. [as if that justified his adultery, we are still married]

As our friends, I am asking that you use your influence to persuade x to end this affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged. Please support x in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers. Warmest regards, Caracal
Bill,

Here ya go:

Facebook exposure suggestions

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It is with great regret that I send this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years and have 3 heartbroken children. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BW

***************
Originally Posted By: Tabby

Go to the OP's profile page. Look at his or her friends list. If they don't have too many, you can send to all of them. If they have hundreds (and many people do), then you'll have to target them more specifically. You are looking for people who have the same last name, or somebody who writes on the OP's wall frequently. You can also look for people who live in the same city or work in the same place.

When you identify these people, send each one a personal message. The personal message should state that your WS and OP are having an affair and that you are trying to save your marriage. State whatever proof you have, though don't be graphic (i.e. say you have pictures or texts but don't say what's in them).

Change your profile picture to one that clearly shows you and your spouse and your children if possible. Some of these strangers that you send a message to will click on your profile. They should see a happy couple/family. They might even recognize your WS and if he/she has been introduced to this person under false pretences, this will increase the impact of the exposure. Affairees don't just lie to their BS's, but they often lie to other people as well. If they see that children are being affect, it will have an equally powerful effect. Make sure the picture is recent enough that your spouse is recognizable by a casual aquaintance.

Remember, when you are writing to strangers, their initial gut reaction is going to be "who the he** is this?" The message has to be very polite and adhere to the basic facts. Let them verify your story on your profile page and do any further investigating on their own (which will stir up even more exposure).

Oh and one more thing - send all your messages at the same time. Not one message sent to everybody (only put one addressee in the "To" box), but go one by one by one until you are finished. You should also write down these people's names somewhere. The instant that the OP hears about what you have done, they will block you and you will no longer have access to their friends list.

******
Exposure Basics

Originally Posted by Longhorn
A. If the person your spouse is involved with is married, His or her spouse must be told of the adultery even if your spouse actually terminates the affair and enthusiastically begins to labor long and hard on your marriage the instant you find out about the adultery. The other personļæ½s spouse (OPS) has the right to address the problems in their own marriage.

B. Your spouseļæ½s parents and sometimes your spouse's siblings. Parents can place tremendous pressure on their adulterous offspring. On occasion, they take their childrenļæ½s part and choose to ignore the adultery, but they often become strong allies in breaking it up.

C. Your children. Guess what? Kids as young as four see and hear and understand far more than you think they do. D r. Harley has stressed the importance of making sure children know mom or dad is behaving inappropriately but that mom and dad still love the child. The child must know he or she is NOT the cause of all the tension in the household.

D. Your family. You need allies who can put pressure on the adultery and your family members can do that. They may be able to add nothing more than disapproving glances, but that pressure mounts up.

E. Friends of the family. Same reason as above.

F. Your spouseļæ½s co-workers if the adultery is an ļæ½office affair.ļæ½ļæ½ (I hate the word affair. It makes a slimy, squalid thing seem less offensive.) Co-workers can apply lots of pressure. They may have suspected before you exposed to them. Now they know for certain.

G. Again, if the adultery began in the office, expose to the spouseļæ½s boss or Human Resources Director. The company may have a policy on inappropriate relationships. If one partner or the other is a supervisor, the company can directly influence the adultery and make it impossible for it to continue.

H. Your pastor or priest. These individuals have tremendous influence in your wayward spouseļæ½s life. Make them your allies.

I. Officers and members of professional associations and social organizations your spouse is in. Few of these tolerate moral turpitude in their membership. Use that to your advantage.

J. Anyone else who can reasonably be expected to be able to put pressure on the adulterous relationship.

<snip>

When you have your list ready, go to each person and sit down with him or her if you can. Itļæ½s good for them to see you troubled, but very calm and steady. Itļæ½s very important to be under control. Many wayward spouses will immediately try to gaslight their betrayed spouses and will swear to everyone around the betrayed one is demented to even think the wayward spouse would actually sneak around behind your back. Take a deep breath and launch into a description of what has intruded into your marriage. Donļæ½t wait for the perfect time and place, or the magic words to use. Theyļæ½ll never come. Donļæ½t tell your spouse youļæ½re going to do expose the obscene adultery to your prospective allies. Just do it.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659680#Post1659680


Please make sure you call early tomorrw am if you can't do it today. The reason it is reccomended for all in one day is now if her parents contact her she can warn the OM and he can spin a tail to his wife about the crazy man thatmight call her.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I've already told her parents.

I've already told our daughter.

I will tell our friends face to face, but don't know what to say to do this exposure in the proper way.
A part of me wants to use words like "knife in the back with her hand on it!"........or "Lowlife Tramp"......but I know that 's NOT the way to proceed.

So what do I say?



Next week I call the OMW and the kids they have!!!

Help me with those words too please!?!?!

Bill, did you read my previous posts? I gave you talking points to each person. Go back and read my posts.

Have you been driving by her apartment to get pictures?
Posted By: Tanam Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/10/11 05:50 PM
highlight, drag right click on copy open word doc right click on paste.

easy!!
GOSH......I can't get ANYONE to answer the phone at the OTHER MANS house?!?!?!

Why is that??
Hheehehe

really needed a laugh
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
GOSH......I can't get ANYONE to answer the phone at the OTHER MANS house?!?!?!

Why is that??

Where does he live? I would drive over there and knock on the door. Expose there tonight and then finish your other exposures tonight.
Posted By: Gamma Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/12/11 01:20 AM
BillCarolina,

Also stop in at his dental office, good chance one of the ladies there is one of his former lovers. This is good ammunition for convincing your wife that the guy is a skunk.

God Bless
Gamma
Originally Posted by Gamma
BillCarolina,

Also stop in at his dental office, good chance one of the ladies there is one of his former lovers. This is good ammunition for convincing your wife that the guy is a skunk.

God Bless
Gamma

Stopped in his office yesterday........confronted him face to face with "I'm the Husband!"

You shoulda seen the look on his face! rotflmao

I spilled the beans to his office staff too!

It was GREAT!
Great job Bill!!

Bill, I am waiting for you to tell us about the other exposures? What about his wife? Everyone else?


Yea I heard that, OM4 was 85 in my case, my guess is that he is a practiced hand at affairs and has a good many under his belt, you will be doing OMW a big favor by bringing this one to the light.

85 seriously?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by Gamma
BillCarolina,

Also stop in at his dental office, good chance one of the ladies there is one of his former lovers. This is good ammunition for convincing your wife that the guy is a skunk.

God Bless
Gamma

Stopped in his office yesterday........confronted him face to face with "I'm the Husband!"

You shoulda seen the look on his face! rotflmao

I spilled the beans to his office staff too!

It was GREAT!


Fantastic, good for you...!!

What about other exposures - they have to be done fast and close togehter before they can paint you as crazy and jealous to exposure targets
Posted By: Gamma Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/14/11 12:23 AM
HC,

85 seriously?

Thank God this is an anonymous forum, but yes it is true. After reading on MB for quite awhile I still canļæ½t believe what happened.

I had the luck to stumble on Marriage Builders as the relationship was in its formative stage. I would have been the person to say they are only friends, an emotional connection doesnļæ½t matter, heļæ½s too old, every affair is unique and he only means her well. I have to say my jaw dropped more than once when reading on here or perhaps it was more like getting hit with a 2x4.

My W was taking OM4 places and OM4 was giving my W gifts. W was also saying some of the things about him that other WWs on MB were embarrassed to have said about their OMs.

I donļæ½t think this relationship could EVER have gone physical, what I felt about it is that an OM with a sense of entitlement will remain an opportunist no matter how old they get, and my W was in a real state of emotional need I was not filling.

It still makes me sick however.

God Bless
Gamma
Posted By: Gamma Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/14/11 12:28 AM
BillCarolina,

Good work, thereļæ½s some chance if the ladies in the office have been jilted in the past they will spill to OMW. Please get to OMW immediately however, also if your W was ever his patient there may be able to get his license revoked.

Not too long ago one of my Wļæ½s friends found out her H was cheating on her because OW1 ratted him out when OM was cheating on OW1 with OW2.

God Bless
Gamma
TODAY.......we start Plan B !!!!!!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
TODAY.......we start Plan B !!!!!!
Really? Is that an "MB" plan B? How did you set it up?

Did you finish the other exposures?

Did you give her a Plan B letter?

Do you have an intermediary?

WHAT made you decide to go into Plan B?

Please talk to us.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
TODAY.......we start Plan B !!!!!!
Really? Is that an "MB" plan B? How did you set it up?

Did you finish the other exposures?

Did you give her a Plan B letter?

Do you have an intermediary?

WHAT made you decide to go into Plan B?

Please talk to us.

I finished the exposure.

She admitted the affair to her parents.....and is avoiding most others.
The wife and I had a meeting and mutual feelings were declared and a plan to begin a dialogue of reconciliation was decided.

5 days later (Friday afternoon) she sends me a text "I think we need some time apart"

OK........so be it!

The wife tried to call me later that evening.....I didn't answer the phone.

Our 23 year old daughter has agreed to act as intermediary.

What's a Plan B letter?.......what good would it do?

I really think that I've done all I can.....so PLEASE guide me on my next move.

I know I need to go deep, dark and quiet towards the wife....does that include her Parents also who have been very loving and kind to me?

THANK YOU ALL !!!!!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/16/11 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I finished the exposure.

Who did you expose to? Could you list it out?

Most importantly, did you speak to OMW yourself?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/16/11 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Our 23 year old daughter has agreed to act as intermediary.

This isn't a good idea, Bill. The IM needs to be neutral and I would imagine that will be difficult for your DD, not to mention an uncomfortable spot to put her in.

How about another relative or friend? It could even be a coworker....

BTW, this will be for your IM:
Intermediary Training Guide
Posted By: SusieQ Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/16/11 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
What's a Plan B letter?.......what good would it do?

I really think that I've done all I can.....so PLEASE guide me on my next move.

Read up on Plan B pronto. Here is a good start up guide:
How To Plan B Correctly

There are several Plan B letters in this thread:
Here


Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I know I need to go deep, dark and quiet towards the wife....does that include her Parents also who have been very loving and kind to me?
If they will respect your wishes and NOT pass information regarding your WW to you, then you can stay in contact with them....
What about the OM's wife? And who told her parents? YOU?

Bill, unless you have told the OMW and personally spoke to her parents, this is woefully incomplete.

I repeatedly called the OM's home but get no answer, I repeatedly left graphic detailed messages with my phone # and email, no reply.

I sent multiple letters to the OM's wife and children and office staff.

I spoke personally with my WW's parents.

The WW admitted to the affair in front of her parents while I was in the room.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I repeatedly called the OM's home but get no answer, I repeatedly left graphic detailed messages with my phone # and email, no reply.

I would drive over there and knock on the door. It is very likely the OM is blocking all of your communications. Don't give up until you have spoken to her personally and told her all about the affair. This is the MOST CRITICAL EXPOSURE.
Do any of his family members have facebook pages?
I am in the same situation as Bill, but I have other advice for you bud. I exposed my wife's affair and then I did very similar things to what you have done with the OM's family. I then went to their home to inform his BW of the affair. She had received my messages and had not returned my call...she was trying to put her marriage back together. So, when I showed up at their home, I was arrested for trespassing. Because I had sent letters they have evidence of what is considered a threat, so I was charged with communicating a threat.
I will warn you that these events have consequences. I was an avid shooter and have now lost my CCW and my guns have been confiscated by the police. My WW took out a restraining order against me as did the OM and his family. Not only did I push my WW farther away, I am now facing a permanent criminal record.
Originally Posted by bikerbuddy56
I am in the same situation as Bill, but I have other advice for you bud. I exposed my wife's affair and then I did very similar things to what you have done with the OM's family. I then went to their home to inform his BW of the affair. She had received my messages and had not returned my call...she was trying to put her marriage back together. So, when I showed up at their home, I was arrested for trespassing. Because I had sent letters they have evidence of what is considered a threat, so I was charged with communicating a threat.
I will warn you that these events have consequences. I was an avid shooter and have now lost my CCW and my guns have been confiscated by the police. My WW took out a restraining order against me as did the OM and his family. Not only did I push my WW farther away, I am now facing a permanent criminal record.

BB, how is it against the law to knock on someones door and inform them of an affair? I am sorry this happened to you, but that is not against the law. There had to have been much more to your situation for the police to confiscate your guns. He has not made any threats here. He has been respectful. We have numerous members who have even confronted the OP face to face and were not arrested. It is not illegal to have a respectful conversation with someone.

And this did not push your WW away. The affair did that. Exposing the affair is more likely to result in a killed affair, which is the most likely to lead to a reconciliation.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
BB, how is it against the law to knock on someones door and inform them of an affair? I am sorry this happened to you, but that is not against the law. He has not made any threats here.
And this not push your WW away. The affair did that. Exposing the affair is more likely to result in a killed affair, which is the most likely to lead to a reconciliation.

This is trespassing because I was at their home and they did not want me there. Exposing the affair is one thing, I think my wife would have reconciled, but I went too far.
My guns were confiscated because my WW took out a restraining order against me because she felt in danger. The fact that I told him to stay away from my wife or else, constituted a threat. I am just trying to give Bill another perspective here. These tactics work for many, many people, but not for everyone.
I read your site and I'm applying many of your suggestions, but I wish I had not stepped over the line.
Originally Posted by bikerbuddy56
This is trespassing because I was at their home and they did not want me there. Exposing the affair is one thing, I think my wife would have reconciled, but I went too far.

He has not been told to leave and for all he knows, the wife knows nothing about the affair and would want to be notified. If he is told to leave, he should leave, of course.

If your wife wanted to reconcile, she would reconcile. She might be using this as an excuse to not reconcile, which makes sense. But if she wanted to, this would not stop her.

To your point, he very much should take a pocket recorder and keep it turned on when he is there. But we have done this hundreds of times and no one has been arrested, bikerboy. It is not against the law to come to someones house and knock on the door. If it were, I would have all these door to door solictors arrested who come to my door.
Originally Posted by bikerbuddy56
My guns were confiscated because my WW took out a restraining order against me because she felt in danger. The fact that I told him to stay away from my wife or else, constituted a threat. I am just trying to give Bill another perspective here. These tactics work for many, many people, but not for everyone.
I read your site and I'm applying many of your suggestions, but I wish I had not stepped over the line.

Probably a great lesson to others to NOT make threats and to carry a pocket recorder in all transactions.

We have had another WW file a RO against her H because she "felt scared." Any crazy WW can pull that stunt. It was quickly tossed out of court when it got before a judge, though. That WW was told by that judge to leave her house and leave the 2 year old child with the H. The judge was very miffed that she filed a frivolous RO against this man.
p.s. bikerboy, do you want to start your own thread so you can get some support here? Welcome to Marriage Builders! It sounds like you have been put through the mill. frown
BB56,

Glad to meet you. You and I share the brand-marks of the estrogen-dominated "justice" system (Check out my thread on "In Recovery".) I was also subsequently subjected to the kind ministrations of a reportedly (male-hating?)lesbian female ADA, who made my life a living hell. AFTER the OOP was lifted, said court officer "forgot" to file the paperwork, so weeks later, when my reconciling FWW and I returned from a Carribbean vacation - SURPRISE! - the Homeland Security goons detained me for re-entering the country in the presence of someone I was (erroneously) not permitted to be within 500 feet of!

Eventually, when the revolution comes, I'll know why, and I know which side I'll be on.

Anyway, sorry about your fecal-like situation. Hang in there, pardner!
Originally Posted by bikerbuddy56
I am in the same situation as Bill, but I have other advice for you bud. I exposed my wife's affair and then I did very similar things to what you have done with the OM's family. I then went to their home to inform his BW of the affair. She had received my messages and had not returned my call...she was trying to put her marriage back together. So, when I showed up at their home, I was arrested for trespassing. Because I had sent letters they have evidence of what is considered a threat, so I was charged with communicating a threat.
I will warn you that these events have consequences. I was an avid shooter and have now lost my CCW and my guns have been confiscated by the police. My WW took out a restraining order against me as did the OM and his family. Not only did I push my WW farther away, I am now facing a permanent criminal record.
I'm sorry to hear that this travesty happened to you, biker. That typically doesn't happen when one person (WS) visits another (OWS).

I would suggest you consult an attorney. I also suspect your weapons were NOT taken from you just because you went to their house. As a matter of fact, I think there is more to your story than you have chosen to share.
bikerbuddy56, please check your email.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I'm sorry to hear that this travesty happened to you, biker. That typically doesn't happen when one person (WS) visits another (OWS).

I would suggest you consult an attorney. I also suspect your weapons were NOT taken from you just because you went to their house. As a matter of fact, I think there is more to your story than you have chosen to share.

I have an attorney. Perhaps I'll start another thread about what is happening with my WW and our situation. I just thought Bill may appreciate knowing what happened and is happening to me.
This thread has been temporarily locked.
Thread is unlocked. Please continue posting.
There is no justice in the "Justice" system.

When it comes to North Carolina I have seen this up close and personal as my wife and I fought her EH about custody issues for their daughter.

The Courts are run via politics and $$$$$

Actual law/legal statutes are employed only if all else fails.

I saw judges repeatedly violate state law and accepted court procedures to stick it to us because the EH's family was politically connected.

Sad.....but too true!

And I don't trust it anymore!

So.....based on my court experiences, I cannot go to the OM's house.

And it also my experience that Law Enforcement simply complies with whatever the courts want......regardless of written law.

I have seen and experienced the absolute WORST of the courts and Law Enforcement.

NO....I don't trust them!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
So.....based on my court experiences, I cannot go to the OM's house.
!

How can you MAKE SURE the OMW gets the message? That is your goal. You HAVE to get to her, Bill.
Legal system sucks? Use the system.......

Hire a process-server. Pay him the $35 - $50 to PUT IN HER HANDS your letter detailing the affair.

These guys KNOW what is permitted and what is not.

(See I'm getting better! My first notion was to hire one of those built-for-advertsing mini-trucks and park it in front of their house with a sign saying : HAPPILY MARRIED? HAH!)

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Hire a process-server. Pay him the $35 - $50 to PUT IN HER HANDS your letter detailing the affair.

Great idea!
OK.....as of last week the WW is 101% MAD AS HELL that I blew up her playground with the OM and she feels humiliated and embarrassed.

OH WELL!!

Plan B is in play......now we wait.......Right?
bill,
that is exactly what you want her reaction to be, you know exposure worked, they all spit nails for a while,
It is hard to continue to cheat if everyone is now watching and know what you are up to.
It will add a lot of conflict for her and her OM, they will fight about it and have to be accountable for their actions, exactly what you want, just keep saying I will do what ever I have to save my marriage and family......I love you and I am fighting for us......over and over again, stay calm, if she talks about Divorce tell her you will only discuss recovery.......
over and over again.......
Wait and watch it all fall apart for her........she will miss you even if she is mad....
she will now see the OM for who he really is...........
Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........
jessi
WARRIOR BILL!

good job mate.....
Way to go, Bill!

Most BHs do not get to this point as quickly as you did, and for that we're proud of you!

She may ask you to recant your story. She will tell you she can't trust you again (ha!). But just pretend she's a crack-head and you revealed the place she gets her crack.

If she rages at you...well, you shouldn't know, you'll be in Plan B.
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........

MY NEW MANTRA when I get down and a bit depressed!!!!
If you get raged at, just say:

Would you like a potato chip?
Originally Posted by karmasrose
If you get raged at, just say:

Would you like a potato chip?

Would you like some cheese with that WHINE?!?!?! kiss
Posted By: ryanv Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 07/29/11 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by karmasrose
If you get raged at, just say:

Would you like a potato chip?

Would you like some cheese with that WHINE?!?!?! kiss


DJ's and AO's for the win lol. J/K that is funny though Bill
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
...just keep saying I will do what ever I have to save my marriage and family......I love you and I am fighting for us......over and over again, stay calm....
Wait and watch it all fall apart for her........she will miss you even if she is mad....Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........
jessi

I need to see that every day!

I may repost it every day!!

This is the toughest thing that I have EVER done!!

THANK YOU Jessi !!!!
I'm a bit confused today....... crazy

The Harleys had me on the radio today (8-2)......I sent the Plan B letter recently.

Today Dr. Harley told me to contact my Wife and suggest reconciliation rather than wait for her to contact me.

Now.....that being said.....the last time I sat in my wifes presence was in her Parents living room just after she had admitted to them that she had an affair.
To be clear, at that time my wife said to me in their presence "I'm sorry, I'd take it all back if I could."
At that time how could I believe the affair was over?
I'm STILL not sure it's over!

I was shocked on the air today that Dr. Harley would make that recommendation......but I suppose I'll follow it.

But I'm confused......I thought the Plan B letter was strong measure and that she was supposed to contact me from that point forward?

Now I'm REALLY confused.

I think you should stick to Plan B. It outlines all the things that your W needs to do to get back into the marriage--you don't need to "suggest" reconciling, she already has all the suggestions in the letter about what she needs to do in order to accomplish that.
Bill
I've not had the chance to listen to it all and will go back and listen again. Why don't you send them an email back for verification that is what he meant? They always say to listen to the rebroadcast and ask any questions you may have after the fact.
I found that a bit strange myself. I believe it was yesterday that he also said that he recommends BHs stay in plan A as long as they can take it.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I was shocked on the air today that Dr. Harley would make that recommendation......but I suppose I'll follow it.

But I'm confused......I thought the Plan B letter was strong measure and that she was supposed to contact me from that point forward?

Now I'm REALLY confused.

Bill, he is telling you to stay in contact with her and to NOT do Plan B.
Joyce likes his "radio voice!" grin
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I was shocked on the air today that Dr. Harley would make that recommendation......but I suppose I'll follow it.

But I'm confused......I thought the Plan B letter was strong measure and that she was supposed to contact me from that point forward?

Now I'm REALLY confused.

Bill, he is telling you to stay in contact with her and to NOT do Plan B.

OK.....now I understand......I just listened to the broadcast again.......I see your point and Dr. Harleys point.

Phone her?.....or send a letter?
I just listened to the show. What I heard them say was that they thought Bill did the right thing by limiting contact when he was feeling so badly. Being depressed and not having enough sleep would not help the situation or impress Bill's wife.

What I heard next was that now Bill is feeling better, he should contact his wife and offer some sort of assistance. Dr. Harley and Joyce agreed that financial assistance might make Bill more attractive than the other man. This is somewhat opposite most of the advice on the forum. Normally, there is a pretty strong stance against "financing an affair". I guess the point here is that Bill does not really know if the affair has ended. His wife said it was over, but she said this in front of her parents, so who knows whether she is telling the truth.

It appears as if Dr. Harley feels strongly that Bill's wife will not get this man and that after a period of time, she will give up on OM and may become very depressed a la Sue in the book. And after a period of time of giving it his best shot, if there is not a recovered marriage, Bill can at least say he gave it his best shot.

And I liked his radio voice, as well.

AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I was shocked on the air today that Dr. Harley would make that recommendation......but I suppose I'll follow it.

But I'm confused......I thought the Plan B letter was strong measure and that she was supposed to contact me from that point forward?

Now I'm REALLY confused.

Bill, he is telling you to stay in contact with her and to NOT do Plan B.

OK.....now I understand......I just listened to the broadcast again.......I see your point and Dr. Harleys point.

Phone her?.....or send a letter?

Whatever you think is best!
Dr H must think youre in a good position to recommend that...
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Dr H must think youre in a good position to recommend that...

He does think that. Bill told him that he was now taking anti-depressants and seeing a therapist to help him.

HOWEVER, Dr H said if he was a woman he would NOT BE telling him to remain in contact with the WS.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I was shocked on the air today that Dr. Harley would make that recommendation......but I suppose I'll follow it.

Decades of experience, founded this program... thousands of successful cases.

It's not shocking, it's just the difference between what an amateur can see, and what an expert can see.

And, in the case of MB, the forum "amateurs" are very expert...

Eh... Kung Fu Panda?

Po < The 5 < Shifu < Oogway

the world < forum peeps < forum vets < Harleys
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Dr H must think youre in a good position to recommend that...

He does think that. Bill told him that he was now taking anti-depressants and seeing a therapist to help him.

HOWEVER, Dr H said if he was a woman he would NOT BE telling him to remain in contact with the WS.

So.....looks like I'll be sending the Wife a card!

What to say?

Then follow it up with a call.

The good news is that my Daughter now see's my rationale for blowing the affair out of the water......she may not agree with it but I got to explain it to her a few nights ago at dinner.
She feels torn between her Mom and I .....I tried to lighten that up for her.
AND my In-Laws called me on the way home......saying they would like to see us back together soon.
And I thought they were all mad at me...... crazy
That is great! Were you able to listen to the show again? I just listened to it again and it sounds like great advice.

The only thing I can think to add is that your wife will probably still be angry about your exposure. Whatever you do, DO NOT apologize for doing that. The reason is because in her fog, she will use that as ammunition against you. Just tell her you feel like everyone should know about her affair and had no reason to hide it. Then leave it at that. If you start apologizing you will be handing a loaded gun to her - that she will use against you! grin

Do you think you could get her to talk to the Harleys? One way to do it is to ask her to speak to the Harleys so she can explain her perspective. Tell her that you told them how unhappy she has been for years and about all her trials. Say "they are trying to help me through this and want to hear your perspective."

That would be great if you could get her to talk to them because Dr Harley might be get through to her. If not, he could plant a SEED.
Bill's radio show from today!

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3
This was a great segment! Bill, I am rooting for you. Please keep us posted on how this goes. I'm glad to hear that you also have support IRL but know that we're here for you too.

P.S. You have a wonderful voice! Thinking outside the box here, it would be cool if you could do a "just because" video or CD with music and your voice. I'm thinking romance. Would that be totally out of character for you? Maybe later.
Maybe it is just me, but I would put a romantic CS on the back burner for a while. I think a card followed up by a call is a great idea. Maybe during the call, offer a meeting for coffee and offer to "help" WW in some capacity - with car, hanging pictures, mowing lawn, or some other similar task.

AM
OK.....stopped by Hallmark on the way home......got a sweet card......it said "I need you here with me!"

I included a sweet note....."Let's put this back together, I don't want to lose you!"

A phone call will follow next week.

Did I do OK?
Awesome, so romantic..

Btw, you do have a good radio voice!! I agree with princessmeggy that you should use it.

Maybe a voicemail on her phone, something she can listen to over and over again? THAT should get her good. muhhahahhahahha ( i need an evil laugh icon)
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Awesome, so romantic..

Btw, you do have a good radio voice!! I agree with princessmeggy that you should use it.

Maybe a voicemail on her phone, something she can listen to over and over again? THAT should get her good. muhhahahhahahha ( i need an evil laugh icon)

You people here are just terrific!!! hurray
I was in radio for a brief time in my early 20's.....that was 30+ years ago.....but it's nice to know that "I still got it!"
Let's see what the Wife says when she gets the card and then my call.
I think she's depressed but doesn't see it.
She's addicted to clothes and shoes....(I know, what woman isn't!?!?)......and tries to buy happiness.
Hopefully I can get through to her.
It's tough.....she's the cheater and I'm trying to win her back?!?!......seems backwards sometimes when you think about it.
But.....I'm following Dr. Harley's advice to the end!
The Beautiful Girl I met 15 years ago.....the Beautiful Wife I married 12 years ago......is still in there!!!
The Good Guy.....the "Crazy in Love Husband" is STILL here too!
Well.....my Wife got the card yesterday.

I called today......she blames me for "Going too far and ruining the Marriage" for blowing it out of the water and embarrassing her in front of too many people.
She said "I'm done!"
I told her "I'm sorry that you feel that way, I did what I needed to do to fight for my Marriage."

So.......back to Plan B........leave her alone!

Quote
...just keep saying I will do what ever I have to save my marriage and family......I love you and I am fighting for us......over and over again, stay calm....
Wait and watch it all fall apart for her........she will miss you even if she is mad....Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........
jessi

Many close friends who know my wife see that she is not happy whether I'm around or not......basically she's not happy with herself.

Any suggestions? crazy
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Any suggestions? crazy

Bill,

Her reaction sounds pretty typical. I hope you didn't burst out laughing.

Suggestions? Think back to the radio show. What were you advised?
It gets better..... rotflmao

Not 15 minutes ago I get a phone call from the Wife!

"I'm going out of town next week, can you babysit the dogs while I'm gone?"

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!
Earlier today you said that you had no interest in me as a Spouse and WAS NOT interested in working on our Marriage!!!!!

I was SO SHOCKED that she could ask me that after refusing my offer to discuss our Marriage that all I could think of to say was "No, sorry, it's just too difficult for me to watch the dogs."

I'm not worthy enough to be a Husband to you but I'm good enough to be a dog-sitter?!?!?!

Sorry......I'm NOT a doormat!!!!! banghead
Just when you think the WS cannot possibly subject yout to any further humiliation, s/he zings you with something like that. This morning I told my WH to be sure and read his horoscope, the first line of which read: "You can heal your relationship if you want to." HE picked up on the last line instead, which said: "Tonight, strut your stuff."

Aargh
Originally Posted by pokerface
Bill,
Her reaction sounds pretty typical. I hope you didn't burst out laughing.
Suggestions? Think back to the radio show. What were you advised?

I'm foggy after today......what was the advice?
Bill,

Dr. Harley's advice was for you to meet whatever emotional need(s) you could for your wife. On the radio show, it sounded as if one of those needs was financial support.

It sounds as if you missed a golden opportunity with the dogs. She is giving you an opportunity to meet a need. Call her back and offer to watch the dogs after all. And don't talk about getting back together and your relationship. At least, not now.

Vets who heard the show - please chime in if you think I am off base here.

AM
I saw the Wifes response as "No, don't want a husband....but I need a dogsitter!

Sorry but I have 12 years into this Marriage and I'm not going to be treated as simply a Dog-sitter!

I Want to be a HUSBAND!......not to be treated as a doormat.

I have wanted to be HER husband for a long time.......and repeatedly pledged my Love and Devotion before AND AFTER I found out about her Affair........and repeatedly offered to work things out but was refused.

So.........even after ANOTHER pledge of Love and Devotion and reconciliation I am refused by her , not deemed good enough to be a husband......BUT I'm good enough to be a dog sitter.......NOPE, I am NOT going to be used by her in that manner.

Fighting for your Marriage is one thing......being taken advantage by your Spouse after they refuse your Love is quite another.

Quote
Patience is the name of the game now, calmly with integrity and class........
Dr. Harley's advice was to Plan A your wife without lovebusting.

What you have described above is what stinks about Plan A when a spouse is in an active affair. It is hugely disrespectful to and difficult for a betrayed spouse.

From what you have written here, it does not sound as if you have the emotional strength to Plan A. I can empathize with that. In and around planning little vacations, time away, dinners out, I was really slamming the DJs and AOs in the days after D-day and before NC. And then some for months after that, when H was indulging in trickle truth.

Have you listened to the radio show several times to really get the gist of what Dr. Harley was telling you? Are you planning to follow his advice or are you going to follow your own path? If so, do you have a plan for what you will do?

AM
bill,

I think you are expecting to much too soon....this is a long road, remember the first word, Patience.........this takes time you have to show your wife that you can change and that the things she might be afraid of are things that you can change and be open about.........
Think about the dogs if it were me I would think kindly about the help and I think that is what she needs to think right now......
I know it seems like you are doing the work right now but that is where it starts, one person puts out some kind of olive branch and it slowly starts from there, does it matter where it starts or how?
A new relationship, a better one takes time, you can't just jump back into the one you had, that didn't work...take the time to rebuild a better one, this time enjoy the process............
do this with compassion, understanding and let her see the man of her dreams.....you will see if you put yourself in the best light she will notice.........
Right now she is still mad but she loves you Bill, wait for her........
She knows you are fighting for her.........every woman loves that, but it has to come across gently.........
jessi
AM, Jessi

I'm not a vet, but I disagree. Taking on the dog care is NOT meeting his wife's EN, it's enabling her in her waywardness.

She says "I'm done, but btw will you take the dogs while I'm out of town?" Uh-uh.

Freefall,

Did you listen to Bill's session with Dr. Harley on the radio show earlier this week?

AM
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Right now she is still mad but she loves you Bill, wait for her........
She knows you are fighting for her.........every woman loves that, but it has to come across gently.........
jessi

We had an issue with our Daughter yesterday that required an intervention.....this was AFTER the Wife told me "I'm done!"
We had lunch with our daughter and intervened as Loving Parents.......and after lunch.....I took the Ladies to the car......bent over towards the Wife and she put her arms around my shoulders for a moment.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this.......but I think Love is "Still in there"!!
Gotta give her the time......Thanks Jessi.......Thanks again!

OK: I left a text message and phone message offering to watch the dogs.......but it seems humiliating. doh2
AM,

Yes, I listened to the show when Bill was on. Dr. Harley talked about opening the door and allowing WW to talk about the issues in the marriage that led to her affair.

I don't think Dr. Harley was suggesting that Bill dogsit for WW, who has left the home, has rebuffed Bill's attempts to reconcile, and wants to go away on a trip. I don't see this as an EN for "financial support." I see it as enabling WW's decision to move out of the home.

Bill DID step up when the daughter had an issue and supported his WW and his daughter. This I DO see as fulfilling an EN--the need to be emotionally available and supportive. Bill gave his wife and daughter the strong message that he wants them all to be a united family and that he's there for them. That should earn him some love bank points.

One thing I've been thinking about is how Bill's wife must have felt emotionally after her cancer and hysterectomy. In addition to the physical trauma of it all, I imagine it was also very emotionally traumatic. She may have felt that she lost her "womanliness" and needed validation that she was still attractive as a woman, which could have been at least part of the impetus for the affair. . .not that this is justification.

I totally agree with Dr. Harley that Bill should continue to try and engage her in discussion of what she needs and wants in the marriage, but it is very difficult when she is not living at home and rebuffs his overtures for reconciliation.
Originally Posted by freefall
One thing I've been thinking about is how Bill's wife must have felt emotionally after her cancer and hysterectomy. In addition to the physical trauma of it all, I imagine it was also very emotionally traumatic. She may have felt that she lost her "womanliness" and needed validation that she was still attractive as a woman, which could have been at least part of the impetus for the affair. . .not that this is justification.

The wife NEVER emotionally processed the cancer, the surgery OR the hormone imbalance that resulted from the hysterectomy.
If I attempted to broach the topic I could see the tears begin but she would FORCE them back EVERY TIME!
She's a powderkeg emotionally.....and will NOT admit it.
I don't think Dr. Harley was advocating affair talk. My understanding was that Bill make himself be an attractive alternative to the other man, be the better choice. Talking about things that make her feel bad are enemies of good conversation and don't fill a love bank. Supporting her with the daughter would contribute to the love and bank. Offering to watch the dogs couple also do the same.

Plan A stinks. Dr. Harley advises that women stay in Plan A about three weeks. He also says that men generally can handle a lot longer period of time. If a man can't deal with Plan A and is losing too much love for the WW, then Dr. Harley recommends Plan B. Bill, if it is too much, adjust your plan. But, have a plan.

I understand about the surgery. I had cancer twice, had a hysterectomy and am on hormone replacement therapy (I will fight for my pills until I die). It is tough stuff, physically and emotionally. For years, every time I had a small change in physical status - could not run as fast one day, etc, I thought I was getting sick again. And during my H's A, I most definitely felt physically unwomanly. Like almost everything, those feelings do get better with time.

AM



Of course dog-sitting could be seen as meeting the emotional need of financial support if her only other choice was to board the dogs. It also meets her need for domestic support. Bill, you really should go by Dr. Harley's advice versus the advice of a new poster. Afterall, Dr. Harley is the expert here.

It sounds like the episode with your daughter made some huge love bank deposits. Go you! Was this AFTER you agreed to dog sit?
Probably both of you are emotional powderkegs, given the situation.

A hysterectomy, not to mention the possibility of dying from cancer, may have left your wife feeling very isolated. Clearly she feels very strong emotions surrounding the events. Empathy, support, and reassurance that she is still the woman of your dreams may be something she very much needs from you, even if she cannot express her emotions to you about the cancer, surgery, and hormonal issues.

She may have been afraid of the hormone replacement therapy because of fear that it might make her more susceptible to other forms of cancer. Perhaps she could speak with her gynecologist about the risks vs. benefits of the treatment. More than anything, she probably needs reassurance that you accept her as she is.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
It sounds like the episode with your daughter made some huge love bank deposits. Go you! Was this AFTER you agreed to dog sit?

The request to dog sit was AFTER the Daughter intervention.....I initially refused, but sent some text and phone messages this morning again offering to watch the dogs......the wife turned it into an opportunity to manipulate the situation....I kept telling her that last night when I refused to "sit" the dogs I was just emotionally exhausted from the day and have a clearer head today and will be glad to have them.
The Wife used that as a chance to manipulate the situation and try to guilt trip me......tonight? No dogs in the kennel.
It was her choice.....I tried to make it right.
Originally Posted by freefall
Probably both of you are emotional powderkegs, given the situation.

I agree......maybe Plan B is the best choice right now?!?

Originally Posted by freefall
A hysterectomy, not to mention the possibility of dying from cancer, may have left your wife feeling very isolated. Clearly she feels very strong emotions surrounding the events. Empathy, support, and reassurance that she is still the woman of your dreams may be something she very much needs from you, even if she cannot express her emotions to you about the cancer, surgery, and hormonal issues.

I have CONSTANTLY reinforced that she is STILL the woman of my Dreams!!!!......She is blind to it.

Originally Posted by freefall
She may have been afraid of the hormone replacement therapy because of fear that it might make her more susceptible to other forms of cancer. Perhaps she could speak with her gynecologist about the risks vs. benefits of the treatment. More than anything, she probably needs reassurance that you accept her as she is.

I said EXACTLY that in my card and letter that was sent to her......she told me "Don't send me any more letters."
So what else can I do?.......NOTHING gets through to her.
What else can I do now besides Plan B?
I'm emotionally exhausted today!!! faint
Perhaps she had already made other plans for the dogs after you turned her down. You did tell her no, originally. For you to be so in love with this woman you sure do try to make her out to be a real b**ch on this thread. I understand she is the WW and you are the BH, but if she is such a b**ch, why do you want her back? For some reason, I think there is more to this story.
bill,
Okay the dog thing didn't work out, could be a combination of reasons she put them in a kennel.
She is mad you didn't agree right away so she is going to show you she doesn't need you, she is mad remember.

Okay don't send her any more letters, just remember the hug around your shoulders, you are right the love is still in there, but right now she doesn't trust anything or anyone........that is going to take some time....
Just remember you are doing what you need to do to save your marriage and fight for what is yours, the only way you can do this is soften her view of you, be the man she fell in love, don't do anything that will trigger a negative response...
let her miss you, when she does she will remember the Bill she fell in love with remember this isn't about being right and being the way you used to be....she is looking for different responses and things she can believe in. She wants you and your life but not the way it was pre affair........this is what you are trying to fix and show her........
so if handling things differently then you would have in the past and being more compassionate or understanding then that is what you need to do.
You can calmly state what you need as well for this marriage to work but you can also tell her you are willing to learn and change and mean it Bill.....
You will see if you are what she needs eventually you will be the one she needs and wants in her life in a new and postive loving way.......
It starts with you.......even if it's only a minute a day for awhile.........
Dr. Phil always says would you rather be right or happy........don't try to control her or anything she does, clean up your side of the street, she will notice.....
If you truly mean that you want her to be happy then you will let her figure out herself that she wants to be on YOUR side of that street with you.......
When someone is afraid of health issues they just want to know that they are not alone and that they have whatever support they need and that someone cares they are going through something difficult........
My husband had his affair while I was on a chemo drug and because of the marriage being in such an awful spot, going through all that alone and not having him there to lean on was a very painful part of all of it for me.......
It would have been easier for me to know I wasn't alone because that is how I felt..........
pay attention to what she needs from now on, listen to what she says, ask questions and then pay attention to those needs.....
right now give her time to process what has become of her life, be the friend she needs right now and don't make life more difficult for her, but be honest tell her if something doesn't feel right for you, and explain why.........
you two need to learn to understand each other again.......
jessi
Posted By: gar Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/08/11 03:36 AM
Hi Bill, I'm in the same boat as you. I'v been married 24 years and WW has had (1) 8 year long affair and (3) 1 night stands 2 with the same guy. It took me months to get this out of her. In the end I still want to be a family. NO DOORMAT though.

I thought about a post-nup and more counseling (which she has agreed to). But the reality is, we BH's are adults who know what we want. I don't want my relationship to become a business arrangement, what's the point?

As for the WW and her willingness to reconcile, well that came after months of gutwrenching talks and counseling. Now we are at the point where we are spending quality time and taking baby steps. The pain is still very raw and the emotions out of whack. But even the small gestures add up.

I'd consider watching the dogs if there was an offer in compromise to do something that you would like. have movie date or attend a concert etc. The important thing is to make those baby steps move forward.

Love is a crazy drug, just like infidelity, the places our hearts and minds can go, keep us spinning. Focus on the important things, that's the glue that binds us in the end.

BH 47
WW 46

M 24 years ,(25 in 2-12, what shall we celebrate?)
WW Affairs: (Discovered between 2-11 and 8-11)
#1 1988 (co-worker, 2 times)
#2 1990-1993,1997-2002 (same guy, co-worker)
#3 2004 (anonymous pick-up at a bar)
Status: Rebuilding 1 baby-step at a time.

Hmmm, I thought you had just sent WW a card saying "I love you. Let's try again." If you went into the whole history of your marriage and told her what you think she did wrong (ie., not processing her emotions regarding battle with cancer, surgery, etc.) I understand better why she rebuffed you.

You need to listen to her emotional needs, not tell her what they are. And, of course, she needs to listen to yours, as well. It's difficult to do a Plan A when you're not living together.

Just brainstorming. Could you try a coffee date once a week, or a walk? Something time limited, non threatening? When the simplest conversation becomes so emotionally charged, it's difficult to get anywhere. If she'll agree to the "date," start out light. No affair talk. Something pleasant for both of you: Favorite memories from the marriage. Dreams for the future. One week Ten things you love about each other. Next week five things you wish the other person would do for you. Set the topic in advance if you can so neither of you feels ambushed. Ask her what she would like to talk about. Doesn't really matter what you talk about; the idea is just to get you talking again without tripping each other's triggers.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
bill,
She is mad you didn't agree right away so she is going to show you she doesn't need you, she is mad remember.

Okay don't send her any more letters, just remember the hug around your shoulders, you are right the love is still in there, but right now she doesn't trust anything or anyone........that is going to take some time....

And I need to accept that.....just accept that!

Quote
Just remember you are doing what you need to do to save your marriage and fight for what is yours, the only way you can do this is soften her view of you, be the man she fell in love, don't do anything that will trigger a negative response...
let her miss you, when she does she will remember the Bill she fell in love with remember this isn't about being right and being the way you used to be....she is looking for different responses and things she can believe in. She wants you and your life but not the way it was pre affair........this is what you are trying to fix and show her........
so if handling things differently then you would have in the past and being more compassionate or understanding then that is what you need to do.
You can calmly state what you need as well for this marriage to work but you can also tell her you are willing to learn and change and mean it Bill.....
You will see if you are what she needs eventually you will be the one she needs and wants in her life in a new and postive loving way.......
It starts with you.......even if it's only a minute a day for awhile.........
Dr. Phil always says would you rather be right or happy........don't try to control her or anything she does, clean up your side of the street, she will notice.....
If you truly mean that you want her to be happy then you will let her figure out herself that she wants to be on YOUR side of that street with you.......
When someone is afraid of health issues they just want to know that they are not alone and that they have whatever support they need and that someone cares they are going through something difficult........
My husband had his affair while I was on a chemo drug and because of the marriage being in such an awful spot, going through all that alone and not having him there to lean on was a very painful part of all of it for me.......
It would have been easier for me to know I wasn't alone because that is how I felt..........
pay attention to what she needs from now on, listen to what she says, ask questions and then pay attention to those needs.....
right now give her time to process what has become of her life, be the friend she needs right now and don't make life more difficult for her, but be honest tell her if something doesn't feel right for you, and explain why.........
you two need to learn to understand each other again.......
jessi

Thanks Jessi......THANK YOU!

----------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by freefall
Hmmm, I thought you had just sent WW a card saying "I love you. Let's try again." If you went into the whole history of your marriage and told her what you think she did wrong (ie., not processing her emotions regarding battle with cancer, surgery, etc.) I understand better why she rebuffed you.

WAIT A MINUTE...let me clarify please....I didn't go into the History of our Marriage.....was just relaying that to the forum.
She's pretty darned mad.....got to give it time.
But NO......I didn't rehash the Marriage or her issues.
I stayed positive.....and was trying to deposit Love Units....but I STILL do dumb stuff sometimes like refusing the dog-sitting.
Right now the WW is ANGRY!.......she is so SHUT DOWN.....and will not hear 1 word I say.....that was obvious.
Going to give it some time......work with my Counselor......stay close to my Daughter........keep up with the In-laws who are on OUR side.
I'M NOT GIVING UP!!!
I guess I misunderstood your post, Bill. Sorry. Getting through this IS emotionally exhausting. Glad you have the support of your IC, daughter and in-laws. If you can't work on the relationship right now, concentrate on your own goals. Give yourself permission for some R&R so you're not dwelling on what you can't change right now. Take good care of yourself.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
She's pretty darned mad.....got to give it time.
But NO......I didn't rehash the Marriage or her issues.
I stayed positive.....and was trying to deposit Love Units....but I STILL do dumb stuff sometimes like refusing the dog-sitting.
Right now the WW is ANGRY!.......she is so SHUT DOWN.....and will not hear 1 word I say.....that was obvious.
Going to give it some time......work with my Counselor......stay close to my Daughter........keep up with the In-laws who are on OUR side.
I'M NOT GIVING UP!!!

Bill, It seems like all waywards are just mad and angry people. They need to blame others and are not ready to look at themselves.

As far as the dog sitting...if it wasn't that she would have found something else to be angry about. That's where she is right now...



Originally Posted by freefall
Getting through this IS emotionally exhausting. If you can't work on the relationship right now, concentrate on your own goals. Give yourself permission for some R&R so you're not dwelling on what you can't change right now. Take good care of yourself.

Like Dr. Harley says.....this is the WORST time of my without exception!!.......Dr. Harley says his clients say that situations like this are worse than losing a child......well, I was 18 years old when my Father killed my mother and then committed suicide....and THIS is a worse emotional battle for me! THANK YOU all the MB's here and the Harleys for your guidance and support!

Originally Posted by pokerface
Bill, It seems like all waywards are just mad and angry people. They need to blame others and are not ready to look at themselves.

As far as the dog sitting...if it wasn't that she would have found something else to be angry about. That's where she is right now...

THAT's TRUE!!
At our Daughters intervention on Saturday I could see that my Wife had a "Mad the entire damned World" look on her face when she was in her own thoughts.
But I AM SURE CRAZY IN LOVE WITH HER!!!
There IS another wonderful woman in there......the wonderful woman I fell in Love with......the wonderful woman I married!
Patience!......right Jessi? smile
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
..Eventually, when the revolution comes, I'll know why, and I know which side I'll be on.

Anyway, sorry about your fecal-like situation. Hang in there, pardner!

Yes I think we are due to rewrite the constitution aren't we? (oops big brother is watching..)

Biker this post I am responding to is a few weeks old, so if you have allready started a thread, ignore me for now, but if you havent yet please do. I will look you up.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Like Dr. Harley says.....this is the WORST time of my without exception!!.......Dr. Harley says his clients say that situations like this are worse than losing a child..

Funny this is your last post, because since I started reading your thread, we had a common theme I immediatly recognized, and it seemed even Dr H. picked up on it.

You went in shock when this happened.

In my first marriage with my high school GF I was seeing since 16, we had come so far at 19, it was a gut-punch when she had an affair. I knew what an emotional breakdown felt like. Cant eat, sleep, and barely functioning anymore. The shock came from, "After all we have been thru and with a 1 1/2 yr old child?!" Remember that theme, the one about "All we have been thru", because I will mention it again soon.

Well the second marrige was worse, and I wont go into details, but this time we also went through he77, and we never thought that we could fall again, after all the trials, and also believed they would make us stronger, picking ourselves up, dusting each other off, and presenting our marriage as untouchable, at every opportunity. By the time health issues and very poor choices came into play for us as a couple, we had so many wounds that were not healed, sucked up and bottled up, that something had to give. But this 18 yr marrige at the time, had developed those bad habits that one time we were able to overlook, that did take us down.

"But all that we had been thru"...The shock was still as powerful, just not as potent, as it was when I was 19. This time I was 45 and had three kids the youngest 10.

I truly identify with the awful things that you two have been through, and they take a toll on even the strongest people, when a small crack in the relationship or each others personality gets widened until it breaks down the relationship, and you forget the way back to each other, or are just roomates walking around in shock.

You run away somehow, and wait for a miracle, because you are punch drunk, and do not have a way out. You say "Hi" to your roomate and go thru the motions, because you do not know what to do but wait and hope for something to happen.

But then something happens, and it is not seen by our partner, and in fear we hide it, because even though we know it is wrong somehow, it seems small, and they would not approve, but it makes us feel better, and nothing else seems to be working, and its only for just this time. God I need some relief.

That is how my wife started back into drug abuse, and if you read hear enough, you will see it is just like affairs. They need some relief in a fantasy, and they justify it because of how tough thier life has been.

This is part of why Dr H knows how affairs work in the brain of Waywards. He ran drug rehab clinics for a long time. It has a lot to do with chemistry of the brain. So do the thoughts change the chemistry, but you can't cure the addict if they are using, and the affair is just another form of using.

So you have squashed the affiar, you hope right? believing that you did we know she will go through withdrawal, and you will be the bad guy, because you took the drug away. Well thats tough love, and if it were you it would be the same if she squashed yours. But if it has only gone underground, it still is a sign of hope, because at least she has not gone that far off to blatently and outwardly state that she is going to fantasyland, and she still has respect for you and "All you went through"

I think that is what Dr H sees also, that you have been through a lot, and you also said she never processed all of the things that happened. I would guess from your Email info and of course with his insight he put that together, and is why he suggested the conversation, and tender offer, because she was a mess long before she broke down and had the affair. I listened to the broadcast, and I could hear it in his voice, that he has commpassion for you guys.

For you, I know you will not give up on your wife, and you love her as much as I loved mine, and still do really, because of all that we shared, and fought together for our children, and was forged in fire. I want to encourage you that is not a mistake, love is never a mistake, but learning how to rebuild it, can be as simple as trusting the proper authority. The big guy, God is the author of course, but Dr H is the best source practically to help you in application.

For you guys, I think it could be a whole new marraige, and be stronger than before, because you will use the tools here to depend on them also.

In time, you will see the light at the end of the tunnel, so listen to the Dr, and the people here. I like your mantra. Jessie has the patience of a saint, Mel is someone who sees many angles. To many great posters here to remember them all. But remember when in this battle, the counsel of many is wise.

So breathe.. and may God smile on you.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You went in shock when this happened.

It's true.....I see that now......and I'm just NOW starting to find some clarity of mind.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Cant eat, sleep, and barely functioning anymore. The shock came from, "After all we have been thru.....

YEP!.....that's it!!
The appetite is coming back.....I still need meds to sleep though.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I truly identify with the awful things that you two have been through, and they take a toll on even the strongest people, when a small crack in the relationship or each others personality gets widened until it breaks down the relationship, and you forget the way back to each other, or are just roomates walking around in shock.

I tried to talk to the WW (didn't know she was wandering at the time!) from EVERY aspect I knew.....tried to engage her to talk EVERY way I knew......She just froze up. Now, in hindsight, I see that she was in the affair and COMPLETELY FOGGED UP!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You run away somehow, and wait for a miracle, because you are punch drunk, and do not have a way out. You say "Hi" to your roomate and go thru the motions, because you do not know what to do but wait and hope for something to happen.

You MUST have been living in my house to know that!!!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
This is part of why Dr H knows how affairs work in the brain of Waywards. He ran drug rehab clinics for a long time. It has a lot to do with chemistry of the brain. So do the thoughts change the chemistry, but you can't cure the addict if they are using, and the affair is just another form of using.

I see that.......NOW I see that!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
So you have squashed the affair, you hope right? believing that you did we know she will go through withdrawal, and you will be the bad guy, because you took the drug away. Well that's tough love, and if it were you it would be the same if she squashed yours. But if it has only gone underground, it still is a sign of hope, because at least she has not gone that far off to blatantly and outwardly state that she is going to fantasyland, and she still has respect for you and "All you went through"

How can anyone dispute that.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I think that is what Dr H sees also, that you have been through a lot, and you also said she never processed all of the things that happened. I would guess from your Email info and of course with his insight he put that together, and is why he suggested the conversation, and tender offer, because she was a mess long before she broke down and had the affair. I listened to the broadcast, and I could hear it in his voice, that he has compassion for you guys.

She has had some severe difficulties in life......I just tried to make them better in the face of adversity.
But....The WW didn't hear a word I said when I contacted her......I was still the "Bad guy" and "You just went too far.."
I REALLY had to bite my lip when she said that......NO Love Busters .....right?
UGH!!!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
For you, I know you will not give up on your wife, and you love her as much as I loved mine, and still do really, because of all that we shared, and fought together for our children, and was forged in fire. I want to encourage you that is not a mistake, love is never a mistake, but learning how to rebuild it, can be as simple as trusting the proper authority. The big guy, God is the author of course, but Dr H is the best source practically to help you in application.

"Forged in Fire".....THAT's the truth!!!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
For you guys, I think it could be a whole new marriage, and be stronger than before, because you will use the tools here to depend on them also.
In time, you will see the light at the end of the tunnel, so listen to the Dr, and the people here. I like your mantra. Jessie has the patience of a saint, Mel is someone who sees many angles. To many great posters here to remember them all. But remember when in this battle, the counsel of many is wise.
So breathe.. and may God smile on you.

THANK YOU....THANK YOU....THANK YOU....THANK YOU....grin

Turns out.....I'm not as strong and independent as I thought... wink

I Thank this group for the insight, knowledge, experience, support and Love I have found here!
From Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Quote
Basic Concept #7: The Giver and Taker

Have you ever thought that your spouse is possessed? One moment he or she is loving and thoughtful, and the next you are faced with selfishness and thoughtlessness. Trust me, it's not a demon you're up against, it's the two sides of our personalities. I call them the Giver and the Taker.

All of us want to make a difference in the lives of other. We want others to be happy, and we want to contribute to their happiness. When we feel that way, our Giver is influencing us. The Giver's rule is do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It encourages us to use that rule in our relationships with other people.

But we also want the best for ourselves. We want to be happy, too. When we feel that way, our Taker is influencing us. The Taker's rule is do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. If that rule ever makes sense to you, it's because your Taker is in control.

Ain't THAT the truth!!


Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Turns out.....I'm not as strong and independent as I thought... wink

We never are it seems.

So is this your main thread? Was wondering what is happening, but didn't see an update lately, though your posting.

As I remember your wife kinda got hit with a truckload of things, and did not do well processing them with you and her together. This is something pretty traumatic for people to go thru, and a case for being diligent as possible at all times, and being prepared for the worse.

I can relate a little bit to my late wifes sitch. She had allways had a problem with fear of being like her Mom, who was a terrible drinker. She also had the unrealistic task of being the oldest child, and the only one who had the sense to get away from all the heartache, but still the one they all looked to when things got tough. They were allways in terrible situations, and they would do little to get out of them, and it tore at my wifes heart.

My advice and demand at times was to stay away from them, and not get to emeotionally invested in thier problems, because it brought on so many triggers and fears. She had escaped thier horror, and she was scarred from it, and likely to get into desparate thinking and reaction if she spent time with these people. But W did not take my sugesstions to involve herself with counseling for herself, or a career, or study. She would counsel people who had problems, clean the house and take care of the kids, but never learned that she could not give these people God, and wasn't her responsibility. All I wanted was to see some peace and balance in her, and some healthy habits that she ignored were nessesary.

So years later when she lost 6 family members to variuos problems, it hit her like a truck, although it is part of life, and should not have been a surprise with the way they lived, for her and how much she thought it was her responsibilty, and how she allways was the "hero" part of the "Children of alcoholics" syndrome. It was another step towards her using again in fear.

See the thing is, when your the "hero" and savior, your job is to save the ones you love. I understand this dynamic, because even though I had a bed of roses compared to my late wives life, I also deeply loved my Dad, and was extremely worked up and played the hero to help him and make him happy as he also had some issues. My Mom too, I wanted to fix thier problems. I also had learned that I couldn't help someone who simply would not be helped at an earlier age, and when I let that go I was much more able to live a normal life free from guilt and fear. I knew what she was going though and tried to bring the cure...let it go..

In an alcoholic family as bad as my wives, and with how sensitized she was as a sensitive woman also, it made her do some really brave things, but it was allways for someone else.

Well when she lost the family members, she was allready in bad shape, and for years I had asked to to please get counsel, and I was just waiting for her to reach rock bottom, so she would. I was still busy keeping a roof over our head, but I was getting tired and worn down, also from situation to situation and things were not getting any better.

When she lost her foster sister she just happened to be around the wrong person who introduced her to heroin. She took extremely small doses, just to cope, and hid it from me for two years, until the doses increased and she became more and more under its influence, and became wild party girl and it really just took her really Thats the simple way to explain it. She was no longer the woman I knew, and would never return for the rest of her life.

So if your W has an issue she needs counseling for, and it could be described as a "complicated grief" issue or past responses to losses, please encourage her to deal with them with a counselor, and find a good one, because your issues you have in marraige will not be tottally healed, until she is getting the right treatment and sees the light at the end of the tunnel. She needs hope that the dark clouds will be lifted, and your encouragement. Its entirely possible, that Dr H will encourage such treatment.

Having a trainload of stuff happen to us that beats the crap out both of you has to be clarified as just that, crap, and be put behind us, cuz its over. The shock sticks around for awhile, and when its our new "filter", we can see things so differently.

Do whatever you can to help in you and her outlook and perspective, and don't forget to pray, meditate, and soak up Gods strength and peace.

So wheres your thread?
Been reading Hagakure a lot lately.

Here is one that I find strikes on seeking advice;

Quote
Because we do most things relying only on our own sagacity we become self-interested, turn our backs on reason, and
things do not turn out well. As seen by other people this is sordid, weak, narrow and inefficient. When one is not
capable of true intelligence, it is good to consult with someone of good sense. An adviser will fulfill the Way when he
makes a decision by selfless and frank intelligence because he is not personally involved.
This way of doing things
will certainly be seen by others as being strongly rooted. It is, for example, like a large tree with many roots. One
man's intelligence is like a tree that has been simply stuck in the ground.
So many scriptural references in that HHH, may I? Of course CP, have at it!

Jeremiah 17:7-9
King James Version (KJV)


7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

"Living water, you will never thirst again", How strong will that tree become?

8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I would say God knows. If we will let Him be our advisor


__________________________

Proverbs 1:5
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 19:20
Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

_______________

So who is more objective than God? We are like the vine being pruned and dressed by the master, so we produce more fruit of the spirit. All things are for our sake, even the challanges trials and tribulations that we think will kill us, are designed to draw us near to the intelligence of Gods wisdom.

Ok sermon over, I'm not qualified anyways, but you will have to forgive me, I know a little and just couldn't help but share it.
These posts were from another thread.....I've transplanted them here for some clarity.
==============================================================

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by Caracal
So into day three of Plan B...

It's tough....I'm not that far ahead of you in the process......it IS the toughest thing I've ever done!

Originally Posted by Caracal
Particularly what does his ignoring me mean? Has he been able to detach so quickly from me and our 18 years? I have triggers all the time of memories, does he not?

Ignoring you (and my WW ignoring me!) means that they are STILL FOGGED UP!

Originally Posted by Caracal
I realise my thinking is sooo not Plan B. My new mantra needs to be "Plan B is for me, Plan B IS FOR ME!!!" weightlifter

Patience is the name of the game now.......calm with integrity and class!!!

P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E (I'm saying that for the BOTH of us!)

Originally Posted by Caracal
I am considering how I am going to expand my group of friends as the lonliness I am feeling is overwhelming...

You are NOT alone!.......keep the close friends that you have CLOSER, they will help and support you!

Originally Posted by Caracal
....my rose-coloured glasses about WH are starting to come off (very slowly though). this is not my H any longer, this is a man I do not know.

My WW is the same way.....even our Daughter says that!.....my own MIL admitted that!

We are here for you!

============================================================

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Bill, you are in Plan A not Plan B!! shocked

I'm kinda wondering myself...... I thought I was entering Plan B but Dr. Harley told me to reach out to my WW again......I did......it didn't work out too well.
The WW told me "You just went too far and hurt me too bad!" (Exposure of the affair)
So.....where am I?
Dr. Harley sent me an email after I advised him of what happened.....and he replied:

"However, I still maintain that letting her know that the door is open for her return is the right thing to do, even if it may not work. The other reasonable option is to let go of her, but that will probably lead to a divorce. The option of hassling her should never be considered because it puts you in the position of being abusive and controlling, something she will reject regardless of how her affair turns out. Simply holding out your hand to let her know you love her and want your relationship with her to be restored is your best option. When she blames your exposure for closing the door on your relationship, remember that what she did was the most painful thing anyone can do to anyone else."

I sent her a card holding out my hand to her.....JUST Like Dr. Harley advised me to do. I followed it up with a call, actually several , which she won't answer.

So.....tell me where I am then.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Bill, you are in what is considered Plan A. Plan B is a strategy to completely cut off contact with the WS and to not even allow her to email you. It is begun with a Plan B letter giving conditions to resume contact. You would be what is considered Plan A, though, because you have left the door wide open for her.

So I should keep the door wide open and wait?
The WW blames me for EVERYTHING and keeps playing like a 20 year old in her first apartment.
I'm frustrated and confused......trying to be smart and brave.

============================================================


Originally Posted by BillCarolina
So I should keep the door wide open and wait?

How close to crazy are you feeling most of the time?
You must close the door (plan B) in order to protect yourself, once your sanity is slipping.
Can you trust yourself to be honest and recognize when you must go into protection mode?

If you cry a lot, if you cannot concentrate on anything .... it's a sign Plan B is in your future.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Turns out.....I'm not as strong and independent as I thought... wink
We never are it seems.
So is this your main thread?

Yes, this is my main thread.
I try to keep up with the other threads.....and post as I think helps.......but it seems as if I don't even understand my own situation.....or where I'm at in the Marriage Builders process.
The six weeks since D-Day has been the absolute worst of my ENTIRE life......and I mean ENTIRE LIFE!
I lost both parents tragically when I was 18 years old.....so I know trauma.
My first wife cheated on me......now the second wife......and I had my whole heart invested in this one.
I appreciate Dr. Harley's expertise......but I'm truly unsure of where I am in the process......I had sent "the plan B letter" 2 weeks ago.....but on the radio with the Harley's, Dr. Harley tells me reach out to her. And I have.....only to get shut down yet again.
My heart, head and body are just shot.....I take meds to sleep......and meds to get through the day.
I'm lucky to keep my head together at work.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
As I remember your wife kinda got hit with a truckload of things, and did not do well processing them with you and her together. This is something pretty traumatic for people to go thru, and a case for being diligent as possible at all times, and being prepared for the worse.

What exactly do you mean "the worse"?

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
So years later when she lost 6 family members to variuos problems, it hit her like a truck...

THAT'S where I think my wife is at......she has, and continues to, suppress SO MUCH that there will come a certain event.......and she is going to be a train wreck!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I also had learned that I couldn't help someone who simply would not be helped....
I knew what she was going though and tried to bring the cure...let it go..

I've tried so many times to help my wife....she won't accept it.
So.....do I let it, let her......go?

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
....when she lost the family members, she was allready in bad shape, and for years I had asked to to please get counsel, and I was just waiting for her to reach rock bottom, so she would. I was still busy keeping a roof over our head, but I was getting tired and worn down, also from situation to situation and things were not getting any better.

We had counseling.....but my Wife wouldn't open up......still kept it bottled up.
She even lied to the last counselor who asked us BOTH very directly "Are you in an affair?"
She said "No!".......turns out she was! Won't even tell the truth to the counselor!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
She was no longer the woman I knew, and would never return for the rest of her life.

I am so sorry.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
So if your W has an issue she needs counseling for, and it could be described as a "complicated grief" issue or past responses to losses, please encourage her to deal with them with a counselor, and find a good one, because your issues you have in marraige will not be tottally healed, until she is getting the right treatment and sees the light at the end of the tunnel. She needs hope that the dark clouds will be lifted, and your encouragement. Its entirely possible, that Dr H will encourage such treatment.

I offered my Wife counseling again last weekend when we had our Daughters issue......she turned me down flat!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Do whatever you can to help in you and her outlook and perspective, and don't forget to pray, meditate, and soak up Gods strength and peace.
So wheres your thread?

My Wife's outlook is simply about herself right now.....I seem to be the LAST thing on her mind.
But......God tells me time after time......in that quiet voice......."Patience"

And......you're in my thread! hurray
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
So I should keep the door wide open and wait?

How close to crazy are you feeling most of the time?

If you asked me that 4 weeks ago?.....when I was sleeping about an hour a night.....I'd have given you a different answer......but these days, I'm more better than stressed.
I only think of the Wife 80% of the day instead of 95% of the day....... grin

Originally Posted by Pepperband
If you cry a lot, if you cannot concentrate on anything .... it's a sign Plan B is in your future.

I'm not crying every day like I did a month ago......but my concentration still slips (Like I need more of THAT at 54 years of age!).....the last 6 weeks since D-Day is my own foggy period of history.....I'm coming out of it but it's S----L----O----W
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
And......you're in my thread! hurray

Remember that guy from the Bible... What's his name... Haggai. Had a wife that cheated, came back, cheated again... Kids from affair partners... Divorced and remarried Gomer...

Patience.... Cut off her avenues (haggai did), don't finance her affair, "expose her nakedness" (ie. don't go into hiding because of her affair, or suppress it because it upsets her) that's what Haggai did.

God blesses patience with wisdom. A foolish man speaks hastily, a wise man bides his time and speaks slowly but listens with understanding.

Cv
As I remember it is a romantic story about love. Gomer had left Haggai and eventually ended up on the auction block and old women as a slave. All her youthful beauty had faded and she was not what most people would look for in a wife. But Haggai had did well over the years and retained his reputation and done well in business, so he bought her out of the slavery she sold herself into.

There is more too it but thats all I remember ATM. I think I remember him never remarrying after she left, and she being exceeding......something....sorry it was nasty thats all I remember when she left him. Grace and forgiveness at its finest.
Bill what I meant was that it is allways wise in a marrige to be prepared for the worse, but I mean be prepared, not worry.

Invest time in each other, have money saved, that all I meant.

When I was saying.."let it go".. I was talking about how I was speaking to my wife about her past and crazy family.

Yes patience bill with a gentle but strong hand reach out and keep getting built up in the right way to go should she reconsider.

Take good care of yourself
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Bill what I meant was that it is allways wise in a marrige to be prepared for the worse, but I mean be prepared, not worry.

Invest time in each other, have money saved, that all I meant.

When I was saying.."let it go".. I was talking about how I was speaking to my wife about her past and crazy family.

Yes patience bill with a gentle but strong hand reach out and keep getting built up in the right way to go should she reconsider.

Take good care of yourself

As it stands now.....she wants nothing to do with me......she doesn't call or contact me unless she wants to use me. Any contact is initiated by me unless she needs something from me, to watch the dogs when she goes out of town, to fix the DD's car......ugh!
So.......what do I do besides wait?
If I pursue her too strongly......she see's me as weak.
I don't want to be a doormat either.
Bill,

I know this seems like crazyland for you, we have all felt that, I lived through 4 months of it.........my husband continued to live at home during the separation agreement, you can do that in Canada and went to work every day with his OW.
I thought I would go nuts.....I planned A the best I could, spoke the words I wanted to say while he told me he was in love with his OW and had planned a life without me in it............I cried I showed weakness but I was honest about who I was and what all this was doing to me.........it's who I am .........and I figured being honest is the only way I could live and who I was, so if he was to reconsider he would know me the way I was and who I was.........
If I lost him being who I wanted to be, then so be it........I was going for broke and letting the chips lie where they would..........
Bill all I did was give him the freedom to walk away if that is what he chose to do, presented my true self and made him believe that I truly only wanted what was going to make him happy, and if that after 27 years together it wasn't us or our family life then he could go start again.........
I did tell him that once he walked out the door we were finished knowing each other, that I would not watch him live a life with someone else and that my life and business would be off limits to him as well.......
I prepared myself for a different life and looked after myself, enjoyed my friends and my boys......I worked on improving my home ........I volunteered at the local hospital.......I had the support of all our friends and even some of his family........
It hurt but not as much as his life, our boys didn't speak to him, no one would accept his affair woman, not like they accepted me...........
He would have to adjust his whole life for his choices and in the end he wouldn't have been happy with himself, what he had done..or his future...........
The OW was not like me, she was loud, drank a lot.......capable of lying and cheating, and now this is who his whole life was based on............I think he could finally see where and what his future was going to be.........SAD..........
But I accepted his choices and set him free.............loved him like I wanted and just waited it out for him to process what his life was going to be now.........
It takes time Bill for them to get to where we are.........It takes time to get over being mad at themselves for F'ing up their lives.....
I wasn't a door mat, I came across as a soft place to land and a place that wouldn't lie to him, wouldn't use him.....a place he could trust........
A place he could redeem himself.....if that is the choice he would make for himself........
But that took 4-6 months for him to realize and come to terms with.........
But he has no doubt now........it was slow but it took that for him to regain what was left of himself........
I would just say to her, that you are there if she changes her mind and that you have a willingness to change the things that need changing and that you love her and want her to be happy even if that means it's not with you........and then back away and let her think things through........
Let the chips fall where they may.....when you do speak, being loving and understanding......
I know it's tough to be patient and not to worry about the future.........but your future is up to you, live it Bill............let her see you live that........
jessi
Bill I posted this the other night on another thread:

Quote
What we seem to have seen on this site is three separate segments, in which the WWs act fairly consistently within their defined categories:

PA only - Fairly rare, in that it's not often that the WW's missing EN is SF, or something immediately satisfied by SF. The best recent example of this might be HelpForDad's WW. (MikeStillSmiling's might be another.) The MB program can work here, if the WW has one of those "What-the-hell-was-I-thinking?" epiphanies. I would add the important reminder that PA-only WWs here might be rare here only because often their BHs take no steps toward recovery, instead opting for the "Take the trash to the curb" dissolution path.

EA only - Possibly better called "EA so far"? Here the best examples might be Stretch123 and myself. The missing ENs, if supplied by the BH in a focused "Plan A" can have very rapid successes in ending the A, so rapid, in fact, that BHs in this situation tend not to stay here very long. WW sees her error, recovery occurs, and the BH poster leaves MB.

EA / PA - Assuming that the EA became entrenched and the OM supplanted the BH in the heart of the WW, and the PA proved to be fulfilling (in whatever way) to the WW, it appears the factor that has the only effect on killing this A is if the OM has a marriage/relationship that he, upon exposure or threat thereof, chooses to retain over the A with the WW. And even then, the rebuffed WW might not choose to return to the marriage, as, reportedly, in the case on this thread. Because at some point in the overall process, the WW (subconsciously, maybe, but totally) decides that the BH is NOT going to be her partner any longer. This conviction (or stubbornness, which is a conviction the writer disagrees with!) will withstand all manner of rational argument, familial advice, common sense, and, increasingly, child-care responsibility. Plan A/Plan B cycle has had few recovery successes here (obviously Plan B's usual success being preserving the BH's well-being). The list of posters here is distressingly long - LostMan101, LostnTime, PTH, AM, TB, SMM, etc. But there are the few successes - PlzNotAgain, for example, and maybe Strike2 (pending).

Sadly, since your situation falls into the third category, history does not favor your chances of regaining your marriage. That has been the case from the start.

BUT....

The watchword on this site is defined by helping the victims of infidelity recover from its terrible effects. For many folks, "recovery" is defined by reconciliation with the wayward spouse, and continuation of the marriage.

A successful recovery can also be defined as giving the betrayed spouse the understanding of the causes of the infidelity, the opportunity to "fight the good fight", and the peace to accept that dissolution is ultimately the optimal resolution.

One partner, regardless of intention or effort, cannot repair a marriage. Your WW either recognizes her own responsibilities, or she does not. You should internalize that your suffering over her choices only hurts you.

Sun Tzu (yet again!) explains that while it would often be to one leader's advantage if the opponent were to seek battle, that does not mean the leader in question should seek battle. So it is with your situation. It would be favorable to you if she made an overture to return; it is possibly not favorable to you to pursue her any longer.
Agreed. Mostly.

Of course every situation probably lies in between NG's outline above and not neatly within one category.

To defend my FWW, her ENs were material things in life I didnt provide in addition to conversation and other non-sexual ENs.

In return for OM delivering said material things and giving her the conversation she apparently lacked from me, she delivered his EN of sex.

He isnt some young, hottie stud my FWW needed to bed to satisfy something I wasnt bringing. He found someone almost completely opposite to his wife who wanted nice dinners and jewelry and clothing and other stuff and to keep it coming, she gave him her.

As cold and calcuated her A was, if it was sex based, I really believe she wouldnt have been as relieved for it to be over as she was. And in the last number of years after the initial "love" as she termed it ended, she played hard to get as much as possible only to continue her easy life, easy job, and not have to face real life. She asked me to consider that she was using him as much as he was her.

Potatos/Po-tah-tos. She was sleeping with someone else for a long time. Whatever needs she was getting filled is immaterial today.

Living a lie was eating her alive.

The point being is despite a monumental cleave to our marriage, this program has a way of finding ground (foundation) where we can rebuild.

I hope you can, too, get as lucky as I have been.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
As I remember it is a romantic story about love. Gomer had left Haggai and eventually ended up on the auction block and old women as a slave. All her youthful beauty had faded and she was not what most people would look for in a wife. But Haggai had did well over the years and retained his reputation and done well in business, so he bought her out of the slavery she sold herself into.

There is more too it but thats all I remember ATM. I think I remember him never remarrying after she left, and she being exceeding......something....sorry it was nasty thats all I remember when she left him. Grace and forgiveness at its finest.

You would think after 7 years of seminary I wouldn't mix up Haggai and Hosea on the fly... It was Hosea, but anyway... Here's the end of the story...


Hos 3:1 And the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins."
Hos 3:2 So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley.
Hos 3:3 And I said to her, "You must dwell as mine for many days. You shall not play the whore, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you."


my favorite passage is in chapter 2 though. He says: Hos 2:14 "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her.


It is a story of a wayward who had no interest in returning. Yet, because of one man's persistence, she was restored in grace.
I didn't want to correct you but I think we all knew who you were talking about. It's an awesome story. One of my favorites.
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Bill,
I know this seems like crazyland for you, we have all felt that..........
I thought I would go nuts.....
I cried I showed weakness but I was honest about who I was and what all this was doing to me.........it's who I am .........and I figured being honest is the only way I could live and who I was, so if he was to reconsider he would know me the way I was and who I was.........
If I lost him being who I wanted to be, then so be it........I was going for broke and letting the chips lie where they would..........

It's like you are in my head!!!!


Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Bill all I did was give him the freedom to walk away if that is what he chose to do, presented my true self and made him believe that I truly only wanted what was going to make him happy, and if that after 27 years together it wasn't us or our family life then he could go start again.........

"Freedom to walk away..." Those are difficult words for me to hear at this time....but my Wife does indeed have that Freedom of choice.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
I had the support of all our friends and even some of his family........

I can say that too.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
It takes time Bill for them to get to where we are.........It takes time to get over being mad at themselves for F'ing up their lives.....

So many people have told me that.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
I would just say to her, that you are there if she changes her mind and that you have a willingness to change the things that need changing and that you love her and want her to be happy even if that means it's not with you........and then back away and let her think things through........
Let the chips fall where they may.....when you do speak, being loving and understanding......
I know it's tough to be patient and not to worry about the future.........but your future is up to you, live it Bill............let her see you live that........
jessi

Thanks again jessi......you ARE appreciated.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
The watchword on this site is defined by helping the victims of infidelity recover from its terrible effects.
A successful recovery can also be defined as giving the betrayed spouse the understanding of the causes of the infidelity, the opportunity to "fight the good fight", and the peace to accept that dissolution is ultimately the optimal resolution.

Tough to swallow.....but it's the truth!

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
One partner, regardless of intention or effort, cannot repair a marriage. Your WW either recognizes her own responsibilities, or she does not. You should internalize that your suffering over her choices only hurts you.

TRUTH again!

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
It would be favorable to you if she made an overture to return; it is possibly not favorable to you to pursue her any longer.

I doubt she will make any overtures of return.....her pride will prevent it.

Thanks NG!!!

Forgive me tonight Folks.....it has been a very bad day!
Not for the Wife or Marriage.......but at work.
I work in Diagnostic Imaging at a Hospital.....I was talking to a very nice woman in her early 70's today, preparing her for her scan, I was joking with her, turned away for a moment, and she had a massive stroke RIGHT THERE AND THEN.

Remember this.....you are NOT guaranteed one more heartbeat or one more breath!

LOVE the ones you love.....let them know how you Love them!

I was the last one to see her and talk to her.

I'm just not sure what to do with that tonight. Not a good day.
Bill,

My closest girl friend who owned the house my husband and I shared with her died of a massive heart attack in the main kitchen in our house in May. She was 10 days past her 60th birthday. Dealing with the shock of a death like that is terrible.

Hugs to you through this tough time.

I'm scheduled for some diagnostic imaging at one of the largest North Carolina hospitals due to a recent change of diagnosis from Lupus to Bechets Syndrome. Hope I get a good imaging person!

Bill, what a sad story! It does remind us that we have no guarantees...I don't mean to t/j you, but it reminded me of something I learned yesterday...a girl I used to work with (well, she's a couple years younger than me, and I'm long past girlhood) lost her fiance' suddenly to a brain anyeurism (sp?). He was 38. They were together when he suddenly collapsed. Actually, they weren't yet engaged, but had been seriously dating, and after he died, his family told her that he'd planned to ask her to marry him at Christmas, and had already confided in them his plans.

schoolbus wrote such an excellent post the other day about how we don't have guarantees in life...

I don't have any advice to add to the excellent advice you've been given, but I am following your sitch and hoping your WW wakes up and realizes what an undeserved blessing you are offering her.
Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
schoolbus wrote such an excellent post the other day about how we don't have guarantees in life...

I don't have any advice to add to the excellent advice you've been given, but I am following your sitch and hoping your WW wakes up and realizes what an undeserved blessing you are offering her.

Nope.....NO guarantees in Life!
Make use of EVERY moment!
Thank You for the kind words.....I'd like her to wake up!!!!
Well.....the Wife won't return calls or Emails.

Now what!?
Now?

Now you tell us where you are mentally and emotionally. How much do you have left in your tank? How strongly does the light of the image of a renewed life with your WW burn through the smoke and dust of the destruction in which you find yourself standing? Can you hear the music of a better marriage over the cacaphony of WW's current assinine braying?

The answer to those questions then provides guidance for your immediate actions. If tomorrow's "hope" is greater than today's "reality" you wake up another day and stay in a Plan A.

You are fully empowered to switch to a Plan B (D?) when you know it to be the right moment. You will owe her, and your prior marriage, NOTHING at that point in time.

I wish I had a more positive message, but I feel an absolute fraud in recommending an indefinite Plan A.
Bill,

You have said what you needed to say, that is all you can do at this point....
Now you go on with your life, be a good father, be a good friend, be a good man.....live your life for you, have fun, join a new sports team, group and see where life leads you, volunteer, help others.
You take care of the legal stuff and make sure you are looked after .......
Then it's up to your wife to figure out what she wants for her life......let her feel what her decisions have given her........it will take time for her to regain her senses.....
Just be still for now.........let your faith kick in.......
Come here for support.......
jessi
As to her not responding to your emails, plan A is about what you demonstrate, not her responses. She will remember all you do, in spite of the fact she doenst want you to do them yet.

This is something Dr H wrote to a man in a very similar situation to you, which I think is great.


If you are kind and considerate to her during that period of time, and she feels she can return to you without fear of judgments or anger, she will turn to you when her friend slips, and I'm sure he will slip many times. You must remember that anyone who pursues someone else's wife has quite a few character flaws that eventually show up. And I'm sure that she is not the first wife he's pursued -- nor will she be the last. Your wife will see his flaws sooner than you think

Your Plan A reminded me of something I said to WH before I knew he was in the affair. He was pulling away from me and blaming my AOs. The AOs were just my baffled reactions to being purposefully provoked! He was trying to assuage his guilt.

Anyway it wasnt long before I realised the AOs were doing me no favours. Even though I still didnt realise he was having an affair, I instinctually began to Plan A him. Well he didnt like that any more than the AOs because it made him feel guiltier than ever.

One day I said to him as I passed him in the hall:

"I love you babe"

him: "humpf"

me: "Are we going to talk about the fact that you have totally stopped saying I love you? You wont even say it back to me."

him: "I'm too hurt. You have said too many hurtful things. I don't feel I can say it yet"

Me: "Well, I am not going to stop saying it to you!!!!"

(His face collapsed in relief. You now when you practically hear the chink, chink, chink of coins falling into the lovebank?)

Keep going. Give her LOTS to think about for when she's being Plan B'd should that time arrive.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Now?

Now you tell us where you are mentally and emotionally. How much do you have left in your tank? How strongly does the light of the image of a renewed life with your WW burn through the smoke and dust of the destruction in which you find yourself standing? Can you hear the music of a better marriage over the cacaphony of WW's current assinine braying?

The answer to those questions then provides guidance for your immediate actions. If tomorrow's "hope" is greater than today's "reality" you wake up another day and stay in a Plan A.

You are fully empowered to switch to a Plan B (D?) when you know it to be the right moment. You will owe her, and your prior marriage, NOTHING at that point in time.

I wish I had a more positive message, but I feel an absolute fraud in recommending an indefinite Plan A.

UGH......emotionally?.....I'm tired!

Mentally?......my fog of heartbreak and betrayal since D-Day (July 4, 2011) is FINALLY starting to lift....yesterday was the first day that I say a slight sunbeam of my own mental health.

What's my bottom line?.....I LOVE MY WIFE! So.....looks like I'm going to find out just how much!

Today?.....I'm staying in Plan A.......Today!
And it IS a day by day situation isn't it?
The six weeks since D-Day feel surreal.......just feel like a nightmare dream state.
But today....I stay in Plan A.

Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Bill,

You have said what you needed to say, that is all you can do at this point....
Now you go on with your life, be a good father, be a good friend, be a good man.....live your life for you, have fun, join a new sports team, group and see where life leads you, volunteer, help others.
You take care of the legal stuff and make sure you are looked after .......
Then it's up to your wife to figure out what she wants for her life......let her feel what her decisions have given her........it will take time for her to regain her senses.....
Just be still for now.........let your faith kick in.......
Come here for support.......
jessi

Jessi.....you ARE a Saint!
Me?......I'm a classic giver......couldn't get through the last 15 years of cumulative trauma that have been thrown at our Marriage without being able to GIVE to my WW and DD....BUT, it's time to care for me!
I'm 30 pounds lighter in six weeks! HECK of a weight loss program!
But....I do look good!!.....needed to lose some poundage.....but just don't like the way I did it!
Thanks AGAIN Jessi!!

Originally Posted by indiegirl
As to her not responding to your emails, plan A is about what you demonstrate, not her responses. She will remember all you do, in spite of the fact she doenst want you to do them yet.

I didn't think of it in that way.
My initial reaction to her not returning calls/emails is to leave a message such as "YOU THINK YOU CAN IGNORE ME AFTER 15+ YEARS OF HARD WORK!!"
But I won't.....I see your point....NO Love Busters.

Originally Posted by indiegirl
This is something Dr H wrote to a man in a very similar situation to you, which I think is great.

If you are kind and considerate to her during that period of time, and she feels she can return to you without fear of judgments or anger, she will turn to you when her friend slips, and I'm sure he will slip many times. You must remember that anyone who pursues someone else's wife has quite a few character flaws that eventually show up. And I'm sure that she is not the first wife he's pursued -- nor will she be the last. Your wife will see his flaws sooner than you think

This IS the hardest thing I have EVER done!
Some days....I'm good......others?.....time for a Xanax tablet!!!!

Originally Posted by indiegirl
Your Plan A reminded me of something I said to WH before I knew he was in the affair. He was pulling away from me and blaming my AOs. The AOs were just my baffled reactions to being purposefully provoked! He was trying to assuage his guilt.

Anyway it wasnt long before I realised the AOs were doing me no favours. Even though I still didnt realise he was having an affair, I instinctually began to Plan A him. Well he didnt like that any more than the AOs because it made him feel guiltier than ever.

One day I said to him as I passed him in the hall:

"I love you babe"

him: "humpf"

me: "Are we going to talk about the fact that you have totally stopped saying I love you? You wont even say it back to me."

him: "I'm too hurt. You have said too many hurtful things. I don't feel I can say it yet"

Me: "Well, I am not going to stop saying it to you!!!!"

(His face collapsed in relief. You now when you practically hear the chink, chink, chink of coins falling into the lovebank?)

Keep going. Give her LOTS to think about for when she's being Plan B'd should that time arrive.

Over the last 18 months or so I have TRIED to talk to her when I noticed she was pulling away.....that was before I knew about Marriage Builders or the MB methods.....In hindsight it's apparent that she was in the FOG of the affair!
I said to her "I'm going to keep saying I LOVE YOU to you until you tell me to stop or I get tired of saying it!!"
Even in the FOG she never told me to stop!
OK.....so I'll send her a card every so often.....stop and see her parents when I'm in their area.....be a good Dad.....keep it positive.
Just reminder that the WW moved out of the home in May 2011. So a card/call/email is all I can do!
I still think she's going to crash emotionally one of these days.

Thank You All yet AGAIN!.....sometimes I feel weak and need support from you!
My best friend(who has been my life-saving friend in this debacle) says "You're just a big puppy dog!"
But I can say that I'm more emotionally honest with the person in the mirror than my WW is!

I'm curious.....what foolish emotional turmoil is she going through?
Update 8-20-2011

Seems like the Wife isn't talking to her own family much either.

Saw my In-Laws today.....they are still in favor of recovery/reconciliation and were very open about it.
My Wife hasn't visited them in a month.....just a few phone calls about how I did her wrong with exposure. crazy

Her Mom agreed that she's probably embarrassed and shamed to show her face much.
Looks like she's staying close to those who tell her what she wants to hear.
She still ignores my text messages.
Bill,

I haven't posted to you yet, but I have read your thread.

My husband once left me for another woman. He said that he didn't love me, never did love me, and never would love me. Then, he walked out the door, just like that. I was in shock.

We had some minor contact in the three months he was gone. Back in those days, there were no cellphones or computers. He called to schedule to pick up our then 2 or 3 year old daughter.

Other than that, it was pretty much dead air between us. He was gone, and from what I knew, it was his full intent to divorce me. He told me he would be filing.

So when he called me to meet him for something very important one morning, I assumed it would be to receive the paperwork for the divorce.

I was wrong. He wanted to come home.


I cannot say it was all so simple immediately following his return, but we managed to pick up the pieces and put our marriage back on track.


The fact that she is not talking to anyone doesn't mean one thing or another. She could just be licking her wounds.


Schoolbus
Quote
I said to her "I'm going to keep saying I LOVE YOU to you until you tell me to stop or I get tired of saying it!!"
Even in the FOG she never told me to stop!


Hehehehe

Admiration is like catnip to waywards - they cant do without it!!

Sooooooo predictable.
Patience, Keep doing what you are doing......keep the warm ashes burning for her, she will come to her senses sooner or later......
It might take a few weeks for her to figure out the grass is not greener on the other side that it is just GRASS.
jessi
what foolish emotional turmoil is she going through?

I'm having a bit of trouble deciphering your question, BC.

If you are referring to the "foolish emotional turmoil" that caused her to go outside your marriage for her needs, well.....THAT is the $100,000 question that all BSs struggle with. Some never really get the full answer. Oh they might figure out what ENs were sourced from the AP, but WHAT factors drove the WS to that action........?

If, instead, you're musing about the "foolish emotional turmoil" that she's experiencing as a result of her infidelity, THAT is recreatable for the most part if you have a good enough imagination. Put yourself in her current position as an estranged WS, who as far as is known, is not currently being satisfied by the recent AP. That font of ENs being cut off, and her pouty self-enforced separation from BS ending the ENs from there, how awful must her mental/emotional universe be? She's as spouselessly alone as you are, BUT SHE KNOWS SHE DID IT TO HERSELF. And her family is in your corner. She must, appearances aside (WSs lie, even about their mental well-being), feel like....dung.

There are WSs who withstand their own misery, and decline to rejoin the marriage (Stretch123's being a prime example). It may be that there needs to be an underlying neuropathy or emotional flaw. But the end result is that the WS must come back to a possible recovery, not be dragged back. Her stubborness in denying the BS the satisfaction of a recovery, if it outweighs the misery she is causing herself, will prevent the reunion.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
If.....you're musing about the "foolish emotional turmoil" that she's experiencing as a result of her infidelity, THAT is recreatable for the most part if you have a good enough imagination.
.....and her pouty self-enforced separation from BS ending the ENs from there, how awful must her mental/emotional universe be? She's as spouselessly alone as you are, BUT SHE KNOWS SHE DID IT TO HERSELF. And her family is in your corner. She must, appearances aside (WSs lie, even about their mental well-being), feel like....dung.

But the end result is that the WS must come back to a possible recovery, not be dragged back. Her stubborness in denying the BS the satisfaction of a recovery, if it outweighs the misery she is causing herself, will prevent the reunion.

I'd like to believe "BUT SHE KNOWS SHE DID IT TO HERSELF. She must....feel like....dung."
That wouldn't break my heart one bit!
After the pain I've been through......I'd like to think she's losing even HALF the sleep I have lost!!!
I'm finally realizing that there's NO dragging her back!.....or even helping her open her eyes!
Her "Best friends" just tell her what she wants to hear.
But.....I would like to know what she thinks when she looks in the mirror!
Originally Posted by schoolbus
We had some minor contact in the three months he was gone.
Other than that, it was pretty much dead air between us.
The fact that she is not talking to anyone doesn't mean one thing or another. She could just be licking her wounds.

Patience is NOT one of my virtues.....but it looks like it's a skill I'm going to have to LEARN!
Today is NOT my best day.......ugh!
As if the stroke patient of last week wasn't enough I just found out over the weekend that close patient friend died last week. Lost the fight with her cancer.
The Family kept the funeral to just them.
The "human life" aspect of what I do for a living is kicking my butt!!
No.....not my best day.

Neverguessed asked "Now you tell us where you are mentally and emotionally. How much do you have left in your tank? How strongly does the light of the image of a renewed life with your WW burn through the smoke and dust of the destruction in which you find yourself standing? Can you hear the music of a better marriage over the cacaphony of WW's current assinine braying?"

It IS a day by day personal assessment isn't it?
But I can't do it by myself.
Pursuing her isn't viable......do I just send a card occasionally?......a reminder?....."I'm still here!"???
Or....leave her to stew in her own juices for awhile?
In this state I don't even trust my own emotional judgment anymore.
TOUGHEST TIME OF MY ENTIRE LIFE!!!
ugh
Well, since you went back to one of my posts, let me do the same, for my own purposes:

Now you tell us where you are mentally and emotionally. How much do you have left in your tank? How strongly does the light of the image of a renewed life with your WW burn through the smoke and dust of the destruction in which you find yourself standing? Can you hear the music of a better marriage over the cacaphony of WW's current assinine braying?

The answer to those questions then provides guidance for your immediate actions. If tomorrow's "hope" is greater than today's "reality" you wake up another day and stay in a Plan A.


You have never completely answered those key questions, Bill. You did so tangentially on 18 August by noting that you would be staying in Plan A for that day. How about today?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not here to act as a facilitator of marriage dissolutions. At some point, however, the thrust of the program here is to preserve some level of humanity in a BS being treated with great brutality by an out-of-control WS.

Plan B recognizes the almost-certainty of a subsequent Plan D, and allows the BS the time, and uninvolved-with-WS "space" to prepare for it. And a widely separated Plan A with declined contact by the WS is virtually a Plan B, anyway, without the protection offerred to the BS.

Patience is NOT one of my virtues

Bill, you do not give yourself enough credit here. I think you've shown remarkable patience, and forebearence. You have absorbed much more abuse than many other folks on this site (myself included) would have endured. Her decision to cease communications with you has effectively initiated a Plan B from her end.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/23/11 10:03 PM
Quote
But I can't do it by myself.

Bill, just to let you know that you are not alone, we are all here for you! Your WW may not be joining you in trying to save your marriage right now, but WE are. But I would be a hypocrite not to admit to having just the same thoughts that you are, it can be hard to stay positive on the
rcoaster

Quote
Patience is NOT one of my virtues.....but it looks like it's a skill I'm going to have to LEARN!
Today is NOT my best day.......ugh!
As if the stroke patient of last week wasn't enough I just found out over the weekend that close patient friend died last week. Lost the fight with her cancer.
The Family kept the funeral to just them.
The "human life" aspect of what I do for a living is kicking my butt!!
No.....not my best day.

Not sure if you have told your employer or colleagues what is going on for you... I told my boss and he has been fantastic in allocating me a bit more admin tasks rather then front line. Even if this is not possible in your case, colleagues and employer may be a bit more understanding if they are aware of what you are going through. Is there any IC available through your role?

And patience is not one of my best virtues either, I think this is a difficult one for all BS's who want that magic wand, the magic bullet, the quick fix. But may I remind you that a certain poster once told me... Patience, with integrity and class... your mantra Bill! wink And go easy on yourself, you are right, this is the toughest time of our lives.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Well, since you went back to one of my posts, let me do the same, for my own purposes:

Now you tell us where you are mentally and emotionally. How much do you have left in your tank? How strongly does the light of the image of a renewed life with your WW burn through the smoke and dust of the destruction in which you find yourself standing? Can you hear the music of a better marriage over the cacaphony of WW's current assinine braying?

The answer to those questions then provides guidance for your immediate actions. If tomorrow's "hope" is greater than today's "reality" you wake up another day and stay in a Plan A.


You have never completely answered those key questions, Bill. You did so tangentially on 18 August by noting that you would be staying in Plan A for that day. How about today?

TODAY?....I Love My Wife.....I'm still in Plan A. I'm IN!
Just having a low emotional day.
You're a "tough Love" person aren't you? wink

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
At some point, however, the thrust of the program here is to preserve some level of humanity in a BS being treated with great brutality by an out-of-control WS.

Plan B recognizes the almost-certainty of a subsequent Plan D, and allows the BS the time, and uninvolved-with-WS "space" to prepare for it. And a widely separated Plan A with declined contact by the WS is virtually a Plan B, anyway, without the protection offered to the BS.

Patience is NOT one of my virtues

Bill, you do not give yourself enough credit here. I think you've shown remarkable patience, and forebearence. You have absorbed much more abuse than many other folks on this site (myself included) would have endured. Her decision to cease communications with you has effectively initiated a Plan B from her end.

I accept that....reluctantly.
In addition to her "asinine braying" she has REGRESSED in maturity....is this common?
The Wife has gone over the to the deep end and is going deeper!
So.....what do I do?
Acknowledge that?!
Or.......continue to leave/send messages?
Originally Posted by Caracal
But I would be a hypocrite not to admit to having just the same thoughts that you are, it can be hard to stay positive on the rcoaster

Thanks.....Dr. Harley is right about that "coaster".....isn't he?

Originally Posted by Caracal
Not sure if you have told your employer or colleagues what is going on for you... I told my boss and he has been fantastic in allocating me a bit more admin tasks rather then front line.

I've been VERY up front with them.....they ARE a second family after all.
I've cried in their arms.....soaked up the support and hugs!
And Management has been quite accommodating. It's just a strange couple of events with patients lately. God DOES work in mysterious ways!

Originally Posted by Caracal
And patience is not one of my best virtues either, I think this is a difficult one for all BS's who want that magic wand, the magic bullet, the quick fix. But may I remind you that a certain poster once told me... Patience, with integrity and class... your mantra Bill! wink And go easy on yourself, you are right, this is the toughest time of our lives.

faint Correct....toughest time.....NO DOUBT!!
Thank you!!
The Wife has gone over the to the deep end and is going deeper!
...do I...Acknowledge that?!
Or.......continue to leave/send messages?


What makes YOU feel better?

If the continued attempts at contact give you a sense of.....participation.....that is stronger than the emptiness of the non-returned answer, then continue.

You're a "tough Love" person aren't you? wink

Someday, I'll relate the story of my initial meetings with EACH of my daughters' dates through their high school lives. That story makes the NeverGuessed of today look like a bleeding-heart weenie!
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
The Wife has gone over the to the deep end and is going deeper!
...do I...Acknowledge that?!
Or.......continue to leave/send messages?


What makes YOU feel better?

An occasional note to her......that makes me feel better......but my "hurt side" says that's more than she deserves. I battle with myself sometimes.

PS: It's Wednesday, August 24th......I'm STILL in Plan A!!!

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Someday, I'll relate the story of my initial meetings with EACH of my daughters' dates through their high school lives. That story makes the NeverGuessed of today look like a bleeding-heart weenie!

I ran a High School boyfriend off with a firearm once......(SMILE BIG TIME!!!!) grin

After he FAILED a LONG series of questions......I went to the gun safe.....returned to the living room with a vintage pump action shotgun (one of the first pumps invented)........I asked him "Son, have you EVER seen one of these before?"
TEEF
He IMMEDIATELY left our house!!!!

He wouldn't even look at me at my Daughters school events from that day forward!
He would see me and do an immediate ABOUT FACE!!!

"DAD".....it's a serious job!!
All righty then, since we seem to be on the same page.....

We raised two beautiful daughters separated by one year in school. I determined early on that one of my chief tasks was to deliver them to college, as virgins. (After that, I knew I had little control.) I'd seen enough colleagues struggle with unwanted pregnancies from their children so that that was NOT going to happen in my family.

With every New BoyFriend, the procedure was the same, the friendly interview in the family room with Dad. In rough terms, it went something like this

Dad: Hi, Billy, I understand you're planning on escorting my daughter to a dance tonight.

NBF: Yes Mr. NG, that's correct.

Dad: Okay, Billy, I need to get some information from you.

NBF: Sure, Mr. NG! What is it?

Dad: Well, Billy, you're not going to try to bone my daughter tonight or anytime in the near future, are you?

(Long pause)

NBF: Gosh NO, Mr, NG, that's nothing that I'd.....

Dad: Well, that's great Billy! Because if you WERE to do so, I'd find you, I'd hunt you down wherever you tried to hide, and I'd slit your throat, laughing as you bled to death! But we don't have a problem now, do we Billy? Because boning my daughter is not something that's going to happen accidentally, right? I mean, you'd have to consciously decide that those two minutes of sexual pleasure would be worth knowing that the last thing on Earth you'd see would be my foot stepping on your face as the knife found your jugular, AND carotid! And seriously, Billy, how much fun would those two minutes be, knowing what was to follow?

NBF: I....uhh.....what.....uhhh......

Dad: But WE don't have a problem, do we, Billy? You've already promised from now on to deliver my daughter back home in the same shape she left here in, right? So as long as you keep your word, you and I will be great friends, right? Now, how about a Coke?

PS: Mission accomplished!

PPS: Their younger brother got no easier treatment.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
All righty then, since we seem to be on the same page.....

We raised two beautiful daughters separated by one year in school. I determined early on that one of my chief tasks was to deliver them to college, as virgins. (After that, I knew I had little control.) I'd seen enough colleagues struggle with unwanted pregnancies from their children so that that was NOT going to happen in my family.

Teen pregnancy was common in my Wife's Family.....so,when I married my Wife......I was fully prepared to get our DD educated and personally secure BEFORE she got pregnant!!

And that is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!!!

She's 14 months out of Nursing school, gainfully employed and still single!

I AM a very proud Dad!!!

You and I are on the SAME EXACT FREQUENCY!!!! hurray
I am so jealous, you sound like such a good dad.
Originally Posted by karmasrose
I am so jealous, you sound like such a good dad.

Thanks....I did my best.....and my DD has been so affected by what's going on between my WW and I.
My DD won't talk about what her Mom is putting into her head....and I'm not going to push my DD to talk because I know she feels caught in the middle already.
My Daughter is the best!!!
OK Veterans......I have a question.

For 11 years the WW and I have been very active participants in a sporting activity in the Carolinas and have also competed in major events across the country.

We were a "Well known couple" in this sport and were also known as Ambassadors for the sport across the Nation.

In my exposure plan I exposed her A to our friends in this sport. And word traveled FAST!
Since the exposure (7 weeks ago) she has not attended an event because during her last tirade she said "YOU RUINED MY SPORTING CAREER! I'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO GO TO AN EVENT AGAIN BECAUSE I WON'T KNOW WHO IS LOOKING AT ME OR WHY!"

Well.....OK (I know....I know....the proper response to that woulda been "Would you like a potato chip?")

I guess I'm asking....How powerful is shame and embarrassment in these exposures?
I have to ask because this is my first exposure!

Is it different for a woman (WW) compared to a man (WH)?

This sport is means a lot to both of us!!
If the shame and embarrassment keeps her from this sport .....that's a LOT of shame and embarrassment!!!

I think that the S&E is what has gotten her so mad at me that she won't even communicate to me.

As my head clears.....the questions pop up. wink
THE ALIEN SPEAKS:

JUST GOT THIS TEXT MESSAGE SECONDS AGO (11:30 pm 8-25-11) from my WW Wife who has not returned calls/texts/messages for about 2 weeks, since she felt the full effect of the exposure:

"Stop sending me cards! You have accomplished your goal of exposing my faults to everyone. I'm picking up the pieces and moving forward. I was wrong. But your actions don't make it right either. Leave my family alone, they are growing tired of your constant attempts to pull them into the middle. I'm done!"

What message do I return to her?

Yep....I send cards to her pledging loyalty and Love!!

I keep in touch with her Family. And tell them that I Love their Daughter!

What is she saying in this "WW babble"?

What do I do next?
I guess I'm asking....How powerful is shame and embarrassment in these exposures?

It varies with the importance that the exposed places on the opinion(s) of those to whom the exposure was made. Obviously, in your case, this sporting activity (her ability/ accomplishments/renown) provided a great deal of "self" to your WW. Evidently as well, the other participants (competitors, colleagues) in the main have (or at least your WW believes they have) a sense of proper behavior that causes them to find distasteful the actions of a WW in their midst. Oh, well, sux to be her.......

Male vs female impact? Well, based on the continued existence of a vestigial "boys will be boys" mindset, I would opine that male colleagues would be less judgmental of a wayward member, and the member in question would therefore not feel that he would be "shunned" for his waywardness in that company. And of course, in some male social/work/fraternal circles, it is still seen as a mark of "manliness" to go out and score a strange piece of tail (although, of course, there are limitations. See addendum below.)

It IS amusing isn't it, that the wayward does not regret straying, but very much regrets being revealed AS straying. Which leads to the question that M/L likes to pose: If this affair is so good and righteous, why does the participant resent everyone being told, permitting their joining in on the celebration?

You know, of course, that while issues such as these make absorbing mind-occupiers, there can be no gain in worrying about them. You (and hundreds before you) did what had to be done to end the affair, with the possibility of repairing the marriage, and doing so, like excising a tumor, sadly, creates collateral damage.

Addendum:
Two men are playing golf, and find themselves behind a slow-playing female twosome. One fellow says, "Wait here, I'm going to jog up and ask if we can play through." He gets halfway there, pauses, and return to his colleague. "This is embarrassing," he says. "One of those ladies is my wife and the other is my AP, and I obviously cannot approach them."

The other fellow says, "Okay, I'll go." And he gets halfway there and returns to his partner, saying, "Small world, isn't it?"
I just sent her a reply text this morning that said:

"I still Love You!"

I'm not having my best day today after that message from her last night.

What do I do now?!
Understand it will take her time to work through her anger. It has a strong hold on her now.

Consistency and time is what you need. Don't even think about her fogbabble from last night. It is just good ole anger.

I REALLY wanted to call her right after I got her text and BLAST HER with my anger......but didn't.
And I did not call her because of the guidance I got on this forum from you Veterans!
Bit I DID want to call her and vent!!!!
Okay, she's angry. You took away her "toy" - the athletic activity. That would have a limited lifetime in an adult. Eventually, such an adult would see that it was not her faults that you publicized, but her duplicitous actions.

What is going to be critical here is how deeply ingrained is her belief that "BC is not the man for me." You havre admitted that your performance as a husband was substandard. We can't know how poorly, or for how long, that existed IN HER EYES.

Net/net: You probably cannot immediately do anything positive toward your goal of reconciliation right now. HOWEVER, you can (and so must avoid) do many things negative in her eyes. Do not appear to her to be desperate/depressed/despondant in any way. Instead, stay in (positive) touch with your daughter, and her family. Sprinkle in optimistic thoughts about "when we get back together", and "when she moves home". Deviously, if you think it will get back to her, work in your plans to renew that athletic activity AS A COUPLE sometime in the future.

As an aside, WAY back long ago, you mentioned she had drifted off her hormonal medication. Do you know what the situation is in that arena today?
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
HOWEVER, you can (and so must avoid) do many things negative in her eyes. Do not appear to her to be desperate/depressed/despondant in any way. Instead, stay in (positive) touch with your daughter, and her family. Sprinkle in optimistic thoughts about "when we get back together", and "when she moves home". Deviously, if you think it will get back to her, work in your plans to renew that athletic activity AS A COUPLE sometime in the future.

As an aside, WAY back long ago, you mentioned she had drifted off her hormonal medication. Do you know what the situation is in that arena today?

No idea.....but if I had to guess.....I'd say she was taking "some" of the original hormone replacement......but not getting the true hormonal assessment or replacement necessary for her prior surgical condition or her age factor.
Bottom line: She's a bad patient...and to be "hormonally whole" she would have to be monitored regularly and that would require admitting to herself that she wasn't perfect.
And admitting that to herself just isn't going to happen soon.
My Daughter is again refusing to answer calls/texts/emails from me.
I'm wondering if the WW is using her against me?
UGH!!!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
My Daughter is again refusing to answer calls/texts/emails from me.
I'm wondering if the WW is using her against me?
UGH!!!
Hang in there, Bill. Does she understand that your WW is in an affair?
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
My Daughter is again refusing to answer calls/texts/emails from me.
I'm wondering if the WW is using her against me?
UGH!!!
Hang in there, Bill. Does she understand that your WW is in an affair?

YES, she knows.
Give her time and space. Remember, she doesn't want to choose sides. She probably feels a lot of pressure being put on her.

I would suggest that you snail mail her a card and don't call her, let her call you. Pick a "Thinking of you card" and just write that you love her, and you wanted her to know that. Keep it really short. Let her come to you.

She's hurting too. Let her heal. She'll come to you when she is ready.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
My Daughter is again refusing to answer calls/texts/emails from me.
I'm wondering if the WW is using her against me?
UGH!!!
I know you see her as your daughter, as you raised her from the age of 8, but I wonder if she see you as her father in the same way. I am sorry to ask this.

It might seem as if she did when the marriage was intact, but she might be re-evaluating now.
Originally Posted by Scotland
I would suggest that you snail mail her a card and don't call her, let her call you. Pick a "Thinking of you card" and just write that you love her, and you wanted her to know that. Keep it really short. Let her come to you.
She's hurting too. Let her heal. She'll come to you when she is ready.

That's exactly what I did today. It goes in the mail tomorrow.

So, since the Wife won't communicate in any way.....and is still MAJORLY MAD ABOUT THE FULL EXPOSURE....am I technically in Plan B?
What do I do besides leave her alone?!?!?
Just hold still and be available to her for as long as you're in Plan A.

Of course she's PO'd about exposure - no wayward wants to be exposed!

But she's also looking for a way home. Stay steady, Bill.
Be Still for now Bill, there is nothing you can convince her of right now, the fog has to lift first, she knows how you feel..........
She needs to come to terms with what she has chosen for her life and you can't help her with that............
She needs to know you have forgiveness and hope for the two of you..........
Let her process and no love busting..........
jessi
Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Be Still for now Bill, there is nothing you can convince her of right now, the fog has to lift first, she knows how you feel..........
She needs to come to terms with what she has chosen for her life and you can't help her with that............
She needs to know you have forgiveness and hope for the two of you..........
Let her process and no love busting..........
jessi

Thanks Jessi.....your words are what I needed to get through this day.
Thank You!!
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/29/11 10:27 PM
Hi Bill
First of all I am no vet, I am a rookie and am trying to maintain emotional controlll.
Just wanted to say I feel for you man. All of our situations sucX...
Just wanted you to know I was thinking about ya!
Stay the course, I think these guys know what they are talking about or i wouldnt be here either
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Just wanted to say I feel for you man. All of our situations sucX...
Just wanted you to know I was thinking about ya!

AMEN!!!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Just wanted to say I feel for you man. All of our situations sucX...
Just wanted you to know I was thinking about ya!

AMEN!!!

You're doing well bro. Keep hanging in there.

cv
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
You're doing well bro. Keep hanging in there.
cv

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Just hold still and be available to her for as long as you're in Plan A.

Of course she's PO'd about exposure - no wayward wants to be exposed!

But she's also looking for a way home. Stay steady, Bill.

This is my lowest day in weeks.......I had to leave work early, come home and take some meds for the anxiety.
I sincerely don't know what I'd do without you folks here!
It's one day at a time......and THIS DAY is a long day.....a hard day.
I can do this!!!
I CAN do this!!!!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/30/11 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Hi Bill
First of all I am no vet, I am a rookie and am trying to maintain emotional controlll.
Just wanted to say I feel for you man. All of our situations sucX...
Just wanted you to know I was thinking about ya!
Stay the course, I think these guys know what they are talking about or i wouldnt be here either

It doesn't take long to become a vet. It is the ones that refuse to follow MB strategies, or only pick and chose the things they want to do that are not ready to advise.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I can do this!!!
I CAN do this!!!!

You ARE doing this - very well!
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I can do this!!!
I CAN do this!!!!

You ARE doing this - very well!

Lol I thought the exact same thing Indie. You stole my post Idea
GREAT minds ... you know the rest
All Right Guys........ crazy...... sigh......you making fun of me?!

In all honesty.....I am a man fully in touch with my emotions.......6'4" Tall.......30 pounds lighter over the last 2 months......and SOMETIMES.....I can feel the frayed end of that rope in my fingertips!!

I know only a few things for SURE!

ONE is that God Loves me!.......and God is working me HARD!!!!

TWO is that I Love my Wife!.......SHE doesn't see it but many others do! Her Family does!.....those that have known us for our 15 years together KNOW IT!
She just doesn't see it through her Alien Fog and Juvenile Idiot Babble!

THREE?.....YOU PEOPLE are the best!
Thank you!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
ONE is that God Loves me!.......and God is working me HARD!!!!

TWO is that I Love my Wife!.......SHE doesn't see it but many others do! Her Family does!.....those that have known us for our 15 years together KNOW IT!
She just doesn't see it through her Alien Fog and Juvenile Idiot Babble!

THREE?.....YOU PEOPLE are the best!
Thank you!

Yep I agree on all three
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
This is my lowest day in weeks.......I had to leave work early, come home and take some meds for the anxiety.
I sincerely don't know what I'd do without you folks here!
It's one day at a time......and THIS DAY is a long day.....a hard day.
I can do this!!!
I CAN do this!!!!

You can! there was a time I was sure I would die of a heart attack because of this, and afterwards that my body was permanently screwed up. Took about a year and a half for my body to get back to normal. I didn't do meds though.

Hang in there, you are on a downward hill... the coaster does slow and eventually stop.
I have to confess!

I AM an INCURABLE ROMANTIC!!!!

I have another confession!

If I had been an Incurable Romantic for my Wife.....I wouldn't be here!

So Fellow Spouses!......if you need a "pick me up" while you wait.......deal with......and fight the good fight......I give you some musical and Spiritual reinforcement!!

These have helped me make it through a day!

HELP #1

HELP #2

And this one helps me While I'm Waiting for my Wife to come to her senses.

smile pray




Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/01/11 01:34 PM
Hi Bill glad you're doing better than the other day. I take the meds to work just in case.....I only take half at a time when i need it. My meds kind of space me out if i take a whole pill.
Keep on the road. And go out and do something for yourself today.
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Hi Bill glad you're doing better than the other day. I take the meds to work just in case.....I only take half at a time when i need it. My meds kind of space me out if i take a whole pill.
Keep on the road. And go out and do something for yourself today.

Thank You!
I have a Wonderful Friend here in town.....He and his Wife have saved my life when I've been dog-paddling for my every breath during the last few months.
We have a running pseudo-joke about "Take the High Road".
Turns out......it's NOT a joke......the High Road is the most difficult path.
It's easy to throw in the towel.......to fold......to run......to give up.
I'm not going to do that......and the sooner my Wife understands that......THE BETTER!!!
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/02/11 12:23 AM
Hey man I hear ya! It is hard sometime...sometimes its just plain hard
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/02/11 01:45 AM
gin and tonic huh.....I think and I am going to say it that plymouth gin is one of the better things in life, now you can have all the hoyty toyty bombay saphires and such but a little plymouth a little lime and a very little tonic some friends and a sunny day and you have the perfect receipe.........
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/02/11 01:46 AM
oh and I had hendricks one night......that changed everything
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/03/11 12:13 PM
How are you doing Bill???? Thanks for posting those songs....
Just hoping today is better than yesterday,and not quite as good as tomorrow
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
How are you doing Bill???? Thanks for posting those songs....
Just hoping today is better than yesterday,and not quite as good as tomorrow

It's a day by day thing.....Wife and Daughter still won't communicate with me.
I'm hearing that the exposure issues are still driving my Wife into severe anger.
I can only assume that the Wife has revved up our Daughter against me or that my Daughter is just overwhelmed by it all.
I'm still going to send the Wife a card every couple of weeks......trying to keep the door open if she drops out of the fog.
I'll send a card to the Daughter also.....just let her know that I'm here......and that I Love her. What else can I do?
Thanks for the support.
Erm, that last line is probably NOT a good thing to write on your next card to your wife! shocked

Good thing you can vent here, Bill, so you don't LB in a big way.
My Daughter STILL won't respond to any communication from me.
I'm going to send a letter to her.....a gentle one.....asking her to please share with me what's on her mind.
She has to feel caught up in this trouble between her Mother and I.
But.....is her Mother "working" her? My Wife is still mad about the exposure.....and has blame-shifted EVERYTHING to me.
I just don't know.....and I'm frustrated.
I wanted to keep our Daughter out of this.....maybe that's impossible.
As far as the exposure goes..

You stood up and beat your chest and said,"That women is MINE!, please help me stop her from messing around with other monkeys"

What else could you do in this society? Thats as far as we are allowed to go, and everyone knows it. WW does too.


DD is probably having loyalty problems. Just keep being strong and gentle, and discuss things with her when she wants to. She is adult enough for POJA, but you don't POJA with her about whether Mom should be home or not, thats not her place, and its not negotiable.

I am sure WW is working her, she has to work this crap into her, DD knows its wrong. If you have been the only Father figure for her, she must continue to see a Strong and gentle stable man in you. The boys WW might meet will not be men and WW should not be allowed to sell them as such.
Dang straight!

Score one for the Gibbons!
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
As far as the exposure goes..

You stood up and beat your chest and said,"That women is MINE!, please help me stop her from messing around with other monkeys"

What else could you do in this society? Thats as far as we are allowed to go, and everyone knows it. WW does too.

That's what exposure is all about.....isn't it!!
But the Wife is MAD!!!.......and so emotionally foggy!!!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
DD is probably having loyalty problems. Just keep being strong and gentle, and discuss things with her when she wants to.
I am sure WW is working her, she has to work this crap into her, DD knows its wrong. If you have been the only Father figure for her, she must continue to see a Strong and gentle stable man in you.

THAT is exactly what I'm trying to show my Daughter!!.....hopefully we can start a dialogue again.....but if she won't return calls/texts/letters.....what else can I do?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
THAT is exactly what I'm trying to show my Daughter!!.....hopefully we can start a dialogue again.....but if she won't return calls/texts/letters.....what else can I do?

Give her the time and space needed to process what's going on.

Even for adult children, this stuff is terribly hard. The poor girl pretty much just had her childhood dismantled, and all fairy tales just died.

Don't push, simply tell her this;

"I realize that this is hard on you, but I want you to know that my ear and my shoulder are always open when you are ready."

Take those EN/LB concepts and apply them a tad to your relationship with your daughter, specifically avoid doing parental love busting.
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Give her the time and space needed to process what's going on.

Even for adult children, this stuff is terribly hard. The poor girl pretty much just had her childhood dismantled, and all fairy tales just died.

Don't push, simply tell her this;

"I realize that this is hard on you, but I want you to know that my ear and my shoulder are always open when you are ready."

Take those EN/LB concepts and apply them a tad to your relationship with your daughter, specifically avoid doing parental love busting.

I did JUST THAT!
Put a nice snail mail letter together......will mail it tomorrow.
Thanks!!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Give her the time and space needed to process what's going on.

Even for adult children, this stuff is terribly hard. The poor girl pretty much just had her childhood dismantled, and all fairy tales just died.

Don't push, simply tell her this;

"I realize that this is hard on you, but I want you to know that my ear and my shoulder are always open when you are ready."

Take those EN/LB concepts and apply them a tad to your relationship with your daughter, specifically avoid doing parental love busting.

I did JUST THAT!
Put a nice snail mail letter together......will mail it tomorrow.
Thanks!!

It's tit-for-tat, brother! I just may fish you for advice on how to handle teenage daughters in the digital age!

rotflmao
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
[quote=BillCarolina].. specifically avoid doing parental love busting.

AMEN to that also..

I have had to be careful with my relationship with my DD, because of the same issues you stated HHH, all the childhood things that were taught her, now seem like they were a lie, and her Mom was the lier.

The problem was not that Mom was a lier about God though, as much as she did not believe it herself. Hence Moms need to push it onto others, in the need to make it true. Moms denial of her own inner emotional issues and demons that haunted her, put her over the top.

So DD is confused, and hasn't figured it out yet, that God is here for us personally, as the source for strenth and enlightenment, in this evil world.

But lovebusting Bill, will be when you try to defend yourself, by pointing out Moms faults, and useing them to explain your actions...I have been guilty of this, and I had to stop. My DD watching my WW spiral down into what she did, was enough for her to witness, without seeing her Daddy fall apart.

I justified it because I wanted to protect my DD from thinking God was not here to protect us through the wisdom found in scripture, and I allways want to be honest with her. The mixed message Mom gave my DD allways bothered me..."Do as I say and not as I do"..and "This is what is suppossed to be, but I live a different set of rules", was the main reason I stayed through it all.

It wasn't rocket science, all W had to do was go somewhere to deal with her drinking and emotional issues, and Mom dragged God into it, and waited for God to do more miracles, so she could belive again He was real. Its called "hyperspirtuality", and it is yet another addiction, when you don't really believe. I would have rather she were balanced, or unbalanced and worshipped AA, but DD doesn't have to learn that from me, some things she has to figure out for herself in her own time.

As Men, we have to be strong, and even when we are falling apart, our children must see us as such, even when they know we are dieing inside. What we do along with what we say, shows them the stability they need, and they will look for in the men in thier lives. Women respect and look for strength and stability in men, or they try to be that for the men they are with. What kind of man do you want them to look for? Its best when the Man is in that position of authority, and is not afraid, they lean on that.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
I have had to be careful with my relationship with my DD....all the childhood things that were taught her, now seem like they were a lie, and her Mom was the lier.

I think that's part of my DD's issue right now.....DD is devoted to her Mom but DD sees that Mom violates her marital vows and has also lied about it REPEATEDLY.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
...Moms denial of her own inner emotional issues and demons that haunted her, put her over the top.

My Wife too. UGH!
My Wife is going to crash if she doesn't wake up.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
But lovebusting Bill, will be when you try to defend yourself, by pointing out Moms faults, and useing them to explain your actions...I have been guilty of this, and I had to stop. My DD watching my WW spiral down into what she did, was enough for her to witness, without seeing her Daddy fall apart.

My Wife dragged our DD into this problem.....my DD knew about the affair a year ago......My Wife swore to DD that it was "Just a Friendship" and not an affair.....and my WW got DD to keep it secret from me.
So what do I do with that?!?!

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
The mixed message Mom gave my DD allways bothered me..."Do as I say and not as I do"..and "This is what is suppossed to be, but I live a different set of rules"...

My Wife does the SAME THING to our DD!!!
But I'm painted as the "Bad Guy" because I exposed the affair far and wide!!! grumble

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
...but DD doesn't have to learn that from me, some things she has to figure out for herself in her own time.

And as much as I would like to save my DD from some suffering.....I think that "Mom" is an issue that DD is going to learn the hard way.
And my DD WILL suffer badly from that lesson.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
As Men, we have to be strong, and even when we are falling apart, our children must see us as such, even when they know we are dieing inside. What we do along with what we say, shows them the stability they need, and they will look for in the men in thier lives. Women respect and look for strength and stability in men, or they try to be that for the men they are with. What kind of man do you want them to look for? Its best when the Man is in that position of authority, and is not afraid, they lean on that.

Staying strong for my DD is difficult.....VERY difficult.
DD has been repeatedly lied to by her Mom.
And even in the affair, even in the fog......WW believes she is a good Mom.
I don't get it!!!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
My Wife dragged our DD into this problem.....my DD knew about the affair a year ago......My Wife swore to DD that it was "Just a Friendship" and not an affair.....and my WW got DD to keep it secret from me.
So what do I do with that?!?!

We can only deal with people at a point where they are honest with us, to our face. That is a lesson I learned and taught my children early. I did not want them to fear what people thought, because popeple will belive whatever they want to if it suits them at the time.

WW was lieing, and no doubt has come up with a bunch of justifications for it to DD of why she lied. The most common is,"I was afraid of Dad",or "Nobody will understand, its different",(Or in other words,"I'm special")

In my case Bill, it became a battle for my childrens sanity, and as long as my W was refusing the live in the real world, I knew I had to prepare them to think for themselves, and prepare for the worse.

Ask her if you have the chance, "What do you see that people really respect out here in the real world?, Is it law and order? Truth and consequence? Who do they put in charge?" and then ask her if she believes there is an answer beyond what we humans try to do to make life better, and if that is not the authority we are trying to mimic.

She is thinking for herself now, and directing her questions is sometimes all that you can do. You can tell her who you are, and show her who you will allways be for her. Lifes big questions are in front of her now, let her be partake in them too. Just stay that stable Dad she can rest her head on.

My DD was 16 when the worst happened with her Mom, and it wasn't revealed for a couple years how much of an addict Mom was, but when it was, there was something that happened, that touched my heart.

WW was living with some half/azzed alcoholic coke head, whos only saving grace was that his parents had left him a house, and he held down a job. My DD was invited to thier house for dinner with her BF, and she told me about it later. WW was all excited and telling DD about how they,(WW and Dimwit) were going to get married and buy a house..DD very politely said,"Thats great Mom, but we will never be visiting you there". My DD loved my WW and considered her the most fantasic and deep women she ever knew at one time, and also her best friend, but she thinks for herself. My WW at one time WAS that person, but she was not anymore.

Teaching her to keep secrets and lies? Be there to pick DD up if she falls, and help her find her way out. You and I know there is much in life to embrace and enjoy and this drama will hinder her from it, but it need not keep her from it forever.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
She is thinking for herself now, and directing her questions is sometimes all that you can do. You can tell her who you are, and show her who you will allways be for her. Lifes big questions are in front of her now, let her be partake in them too. Just stay that stable Dad she can rest her head on.

Teaching her to keep secrets and lies? Be there to pick DD up if she falls, and help her find her way out. You and I know there is much in life to embrace and enjoy and this drama will hinder her from it, but it need not keep her from it forever.

Help the DD through this is the best I can do......help her to understand right from wrong.....good from evil.....it sounds cliche' but it's true.
But I'm betting that Mom is using her to reinforce her fog.
I hope I'm COMPLETELY WRONG!!
I never wanted to be so wrong in my entire life!
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/05/11 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Staying strong for my DD is difficult.....VERY difficult.
DD has been repeatedly lied to by her Mom.
And even in the affair, even in the fog......WW believes she is a good Mom.
I don't get it!!!

"Don't forget that in addition to the lies that liars tell you, there are lies that liars tell themselves. After a period of time passes, the liars begin to believe their own lies, even if their "memory" of events contradicts all logical thinking. Never forget: if they don't succeed in convincing you, they will convince a far more gullible subject, themselves."

Not sure where I read this, so apologies to whoever's words I am using. But this has stuck with me and helps me understand how the waywards justify their behaviour... I think they at times believe themselves. Hope if might help you in understanding WW Bill. When I start thinking about self-deception rather then only deceiving others, it really does make me feel pity for the waywards. Keep showing your daughter the good father you clearly are.
Originally Posted by Caracal
When I start thinking about self-deception rather then only deceiving others, it really does make me feel pity for the waywards. Keep showing your daughter the good father you clearly are.

And I have actually started to believe that the last few weeks.....that I actually pity my Wife.
MY GOSH I LOVE THAT WOMAN!!
But she's throwing away 15 years of relationship!......and 12 years of Marriage!
She has a Husband who actually WANTS to get into recovery!!!!.....and she blame-shifts everything onto me and ignores my communications because she's mad that I exposed her!?!?!
So what am I to do BESIDES pity her that she is in such an ALIEN PHASE that she is self-deluding herself!
Time will show us the result.
BC, you are not alone in trying to understand "What the HELL happened to the woman I was married to for XX years?"

I am not psycho-trained. All I can tell you is what has been evident on this site for the almost two years I've been here, and the eight months on another site.

WWs apparently have a "switch" in their processor that WHs do NOT have. Once a "threshhold" quantity of combined dissatisfaction with the BH and new satisfaction from the OM is reached, the switch closes, and is damned difficult for the WW to process that what she's doing - the cheating, lying, and infidelity - is WRONG. Somehow, that psycho-switch translates her bizarre behavior into, "I'm right; everyone else is wrong; they don't understand; my life with BH was a mistake/lie; my true future lies with an illicit coupling with OM."

Like the speed of light being the constant that causes all other physical science to conform, this new "reality" has the power to re-write history, re-orient actions and impulses, and reduce absolute responsibilities (like child care) to details to be molded to what she needs NOW.

Proof of the awesome power of this psychic fault-line? Imagine five years ago - Could you have envisioned your wife leaving your family, to go shack up with OM, essentially abandoning her life with you after all you did together to resolve the custody of her daughter/your stepdaughter?

I like solving puzzles, but the answers I derive for the "Why is this happening so much now?" will stay private, because kicking over the sacred cow of "female equality" is an exercise in masochism that I choose to avoid. Sadly, you, in company with a LARGE group of BHs, have been caught in this whirlwind not of your making.
"I like solving puzzles, but the answers I derive for the "Why is this happening so much now?" will stay private, because kicking over the sacred cow of "female equality" is an exercise in masochism that I choose to avoid"

RE: I can solve the puzzle, and I'm not afraid to say the non-PC words.

Women want to be protected and coveted and feel safe, and men want to protect and covet and provide safety. When we as a society lost pride and value in those needs as if they are weaknesses versus strengths, we crapped out.


This is why I love MB.


Or, we can just blame Helen Reddy. One other comment:

"Somehow, that psycho-switch translates her bizarre behavior into, "I'm right; everyone else is wrong; they don't understand; my life with BH was a mistake/lie; my true future lies with an illicit coupling with"

WW are very different from WHs in this way...WWs belive that they WILL leave BHs.

Am I wrong?
S88, do you remember the Seinfeld episode in which the dentist converted to Judaism to be able to tell "Jewish" jokes? Well, I considered what would have to be done to acquire the ability that birth granted ladies to reproach the "equality" geniuses, and THE PRICE IS TOO DAMN HIGH !

Thanx for stepping in.......
WW are very different from WHs in this way...WWs belive that they WILL leave BHs. Am I wrong?

A subtle difference, I think, "WWs belive that they SHOULD leave BHs."

After the "should" is founded, it becomes an easier path to establish belief that "shall" and "must" will follow.

Again, BC, I apologize for yet another t/j.
So you are an anti-dentite, NG?

Bahahaha!

Seriously, I think biological diffences between men and women are approached very accurately here. Maybe not described as such, but we use "doormat" a lot with both men and women. The animal kindom doesn't lie. Both genders want what we're designed to do. When we try to re-define that, life runs amuck.


T/J Bill! End t/j!

Yessss. Should versus will. Obligation that allows for WHs to "rescue" the OW more so than a WW, and that falls apart fast. See compartmentalizing. Dudes don't leave without a nest to go to, and that falls apart really fast cuz the routine (or lack there of) is completely uncomfortable for them, whether BH or OM.

WW fantasizes about OM rescue. Doesn't happen and WW is destroyed.

WHs or OMs don't have that intent (to really commit), statistcally. When reality hits they are gone.

MBs is awesome as addresses both situations.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
S88, do you remember the Seinfeld episode in which the dentist converted to Judaism to be able to tell "Jewish" jokes? Well, I considered what would have to be done to acquire the ability that birth granted ladies to reproach the "equality" geniuses, and THE PRICE IS TOO DAMN HIGH !

Thanx for stepping in.......
T/J..

Well you know me.... banghead, I gotta comment but suggest we go to the mans revovery thread... Mens Recovery Thread , but I must I must I must, like the cowardly impulsive lion, say this one joke, that wraps a lot up for me anyways.

There was a preacher speaking about Christs Divinity, and how Christ was the perfect sacrifice for mans sins.
At one juncture, convinced he had made that point, he challanged the audience, by asking, "So in your whole life, have you ever known of another perfect individual human being?

One hand in the back row shot up, and the preacher asked the couple to stand. The man had raised his hand.

The preacher asked the man who it was that he knew of that was perfect and never made a mistake? The man pointed at his wife, and said. "Her ex-husband"


Now I cannot stop imagining what was funnier in that joke, which way the inflection went, on what that man was saying..He was either being compared to the last Husband by the wife, in some re-writing of History, and it was driving him nuts, or he was thinking the man was wise for divorcing her,(Maybe for the same reason), but it comes down to the same observation most of us Men have made down through the years..You just can't win sometimes...

Freud went to his grave trying to answer the question,"What do women want?" I would say what my Dad would allways say he wanted, smiling, "The world with a fence around it", or everything.

I think its their nature, yes S88, I do agree on that. I would love to see us boys at the recovery thread treehouse that HHH built, to discuss it though, before we get whacked, not that we don't deserve it.

(Now is the time when all the other guys say, "Whattya mean "we", you got a mouse in your pocket?)

End T/J Sorry Bill
"Now I cannot stop imagining what was funnier in that joke, which way the inflection went, on what that man was saying..He was either being compared to the last Husband by the wife, in some re-writing of History, and it was driving him nuts, or he was thinking the man was wise for divorcing her,(Maybe for the same reason), but it comes down to the same observation most of us Men have made down through the years..You just can't win sometimes..."

CP:

This question is like War Games tic-tac-toe...and why we women love you jack asses and why you love our snottie pants' right back. And, so it goes.
Originally Posted by Caracal
"Don't forget that in addition to the lies that liars tell you, there are lies that liars tell themselves. After a period of time passes, the liars begin to believe their own lies, even if their "memory" of events contradicts all logical thinking. Never forget: if they don't succeed in convincing you, they will convince a far more gullible subject, themselves."

But this has stuck with me and helps me understand how the waywards justify their behaviour... I think they at times believe themselves. Hope if might help you in understanding WW Bill. When I start thinking about self-deception rather then only deceiving others, it really does make me feel pity for the waywards. Keep showing your daughter the good father you clearly are.

I think that is where my WW is!......she's believing her own lies!.......at least for now.
Thanks Caracal !!!
Today......another Plan A day.
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/06/11 12:08 PM
Member

Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 1428
Loc: New York WW are very different from WHs in this way...WWs belive that they WILL leave BHs. Am I wrong?

A subtle difference, I think, "WWs belive that they SHOULD leave BHs."

After the "should" is founded, it becomes an easier path to establish belief that "shall" and "must" will follow.

Again, BC, I apologize for yet another t/j


Wow.....that is my life...thanks for the t/j surfer and ng
Well.....I sent the DD a snail mail letter......told her that Dad was here when she's ready to talk......don't know what else to do.

Sent the WW (who is ignoring me) a nice card......included "I am NOT going to give up on You or our Marriage!!".......don't know what else to do.

Dear God.......I ask you to deliver my words to my Wife and Daughter....Please open the eyes and Hearts to my words and your Will!! pray

Todays Update: 1 more day in Plan A
I think it's perfect for plan A. Especially the prayer, but other opinions may differ
Originally Posted by Surfer88
"I like solving puzzles, but the answers I derive for the "Why is this happening so much now?" will stay private, because kicking over the sacred cow of "female equality" is an exercise in masochism that I choose to avoid"

RE: I can solve the puzzle, and I'm not afraid to say the non-PC words.

Women want to be protected and coveted and feel safe, and men want to protect and covet and provide safety. When we as a society lost pride and value in those needs as if they are weaknesses versus strengths, we crapped out.


This is why I love MB.



Just can't let this one pass. It's a cruel joke that women and men are attracted to one another, cuz they sure don't think alike.

It's too simplistic to blame women's quest for equality (OR Helen Reddy) for female infidelity. And no, the solution is not to keep women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

Women and men do seem to engage in affairs for different reasons. Many women will tell you that they were primarily seeking emotional intimacy rather than sexual intimacy with their affair partners. Women also tend to find the emotional intimacy their WHs experience with their affair partners to be more threatening than the physical intimacy.

Men tend to be much more distressed by the physical acts that their WWs have engaged in with their affair partners and appear to be less upset by the emotional intimacy of an affair.

Both men and women these days seem to have a sense of entitlement , a selfish desire to have what they want, WHEN they want it, without regard to the needs and desires of their spouses or anyone else. Infidelity and divorce have lost their social stigma. That's clear from the fact that 60% of all marriages today are impacted by infidelity.

Marriage is HARD work. Those who don't want to do the heavy lifting, regardless of their sex, are vulnerable to affairs.
Originally Posted by freefall
Women and men do seem to engage in affairs for different reasons. Many women will tell you that they were primarily seeking emotional intimacy rather than sexual intimacy with their affair partners. Women also tend to find the emotional intimacy their WHs experience with their affair partners to be more threatening than the physical intimacy.

Men tend to be much more distressed by the physical acts that their WWs have engaged in with their affair partners and appear to be less upset by the emotional intimacy of an affair.

Both men and women these days seem to have a sense of entitlement , a selfish desire to have what they want, WHEN they want it, without regard to the needs and desires of their spouses or anyone else. Infidelity and divorce have lost their social stigma. That's clear from the fact that 60% of all marriages today are impacted by infidelity.

Marriage is HARD work. Those who don't want to do the heavy lifting, regardless of their sex, are vulnerable to affairs.

I have to agree, but I still go with the cake eating idea that ends up in deception. And also the dirty deeds that are siad to be excitment, that people seem to be lacking in their poor, sad, lives, that drive them to affairs.

What S88 says it initially true, but societys need to have it all, many times leads to what you described also, and also what you described as this need for satisfaction, by any means possible.

I am sure as I sit here there are and have been W who are sexually excited by the prospect of an affair, because it IS dirty and sleazy, and they fall in love with that excitment also. Just like men who believe that they have a wife they take care of in decency, and seek outside of marriage to really get it on, because the mistress, the hooker, or the ambiguios one night stand, does not have any strings of morality attached.

Its the freedom of release, the mindless sex, the excitment, the danger, that is the attraction.

I knew a guy who left his wife feeling emotionally fearful of sex, and instead of helping her, used her as a place to sleep, and used her problem as an excuse to go out and play women. He would tell them he was married, and act like he was a nice guy for staying with her because of the children. He would play out every one of them, and then move onto another. The women believed him because it was the easiest thing to do. They liked the excitment also.

Then there was the woman I knew that turned hooker for herion. She told me about some guy she was going to screw, and I asked her,"Is it because you need money is he one of your clients?" She said "Yeah, but honestly I just wanted to )%$K him"

What S88 said was correct, that Men want to protect, but to be honest, they also want to possess thier wives, because they consider them thiers, and there is no provision for that in todays world like there used to be. In nature the male who is the strongest, and able to battle the competition up front in a physical duel wins the females. In this world you will go to jail possibly, and the rules had changed, money is the power, and we all know it can be gotten by other means than hard work and discipline, and some even go to church on Sundays, putting on an act, and paying thier way to cover thier sins.

Yes it takes a lot of work, and a strong mind with commitment to make a marrige work. Might I add a commitment to boundaries, and at least a need for them, for yourself first, so you can protect others.

When people start talking about how they are not fuffilled emotionally and that is why they stray, I wonder what emotions they are seeking to fufill. When it is just being nasty and dangerous, why do they turn it around and say the opposite? Three guesses and the first two don't count.
HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED TODAY?!?!

Last communication I got from my wife was a text message on 8/25/11 when she said "I'm done!" (There was more to it, it's on page 21 of this thread)

I'm at work today and get this text from my Wife:

WIFE: "I just got hit with $80 worth of phone cancellation charges because you changed phone companies." (Which I did 3 days after D-Day)

ME: "Would you like to talk to me?"

WIFE: "I would like to get this resolved."

ME: "What do you want to resolve? Just$80? Is that all? I'm ready to resolve more than that."

WIFE: "Bill, this is about phone charges, there is no underlying message here."

ME: "I'll send you $80 if that's what you want...I'm just being open and honest with you.....I Love You"

WIFE: "Thank you for being honest. Thank you for sending the $ for this charge."

ME: "You're welcome.....I'm here."

That was a painful interaction!!!

My Wife thinks NOTHING of spending $80 on a single pair of jeans!!!
$80 provoked her to communicate with me??
$80 means NOTHING to her......NOTHING!!
She sends me a message about $80 two weeks after an "I'm done!" text message??? grumble
WHAT IS GOING ON ???
More "Alien Babble"?
I took a chance and held out a hand to her....and how else am I to interpret her response other than "No thanks!"?
faint
CAN my Wife be THAT GOOFY
Looks like wifey likes BillC time....

such a poor excuse for calling you!
Posted By: Cameo2 Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/08/11 09:14 PM
Hmmm, I'm feeling a little unsure of myself. I wonder if Bill is still at my beck and call?

Yep, he's still on the string. I'm so awesome, he'll do anything for me. I can keep playing.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/08/11 09:40 PM
Hmmm, I'm bored, maybe I'll play with THAT toy for a little while.

The wayward mind regresses, and part of that is the attention span. How many times have I thought "I can't believe he is acting like a 10-year-old"? Countless. Typical wayward behaviour, lets taste the cake to see if it is still good, but run from the responsibility of having to wash the dishes.
Quote
CAN my Wife be THAT GOOFY


Yes.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
CAN my Wife be THAT GOOFY


Yes.

SO WHAT AM I TO DO???

Plan B her?!?!?!

What other options do I have?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
CAN my Wife be THAT GOOFY


Yes.

SO WHAT AM I TO DO???

Plan B her?!?!?!

What other options do I have?

Keep letting her through until you go nuts or have a heart attack?

Methinks Plan B is the better choice.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED TODAY?!?!

Last communication I got from my wife was a text message on 8/25/11 when she said "I'm done!" (There was more to it, it's on page 21 of this thread)

My Wife thinks NOTHING of spending $80 on a single pair of jeans!!!
$80 provoked her to communicate with me??
$80 means NOTHING to her......NOTHING!!
She sends me a message about $80 two weeks after an "I'm done!" text message??? grumble
WHAT IS GOING ON ???
More "Alien Babble"?
I took a chance and held out a hand to her....and how else am I to interpret her response other than "No thanks!"?
faint
CAN my Wife be THAT GOOFY

Bill, have you read the thread "the craziest things to come out of a wayward's piehole?" (I think that's what it's called.

The answer is yes. she can. 80bucks for jeans means nothing. 80.00 taken away from her and the AP communicating... Different story...

I remember my now FWW coming home one evening while she was still in the affair and asking me for help because she offended someone at work (it was her OM, but I didn't realize it at the time, knew it was going on but pegged the wrong guy). She had told him one day after he came back from running at lunch and he was still in his running shorts "Are those your legs or is that a chicken you're riding?". OM became extremely offended, and they argued and it ended with her telling him "I have a husband at home who loves me, I don't need you! Get over yourself" (or something to that effect)

So I told her that it was a hurtful thing to say and she should go apologize (I inadvertently helped them reconcile?)

Anyway, the point is, who in their right mind would go to their husband and ask for relationship advice with their lover whom they are having an argument with? It's sheer insanity. They aren't thinking straight and I wouldn't read anything more into it than she has truly taken leave of her senses...

CV


Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/08/11 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
CAN my Wife be THAT GOOFY


Yes.

SO WHAT AM I TO DO???

Plan B her?!?!?!

What other options do I have?

Bill, according to Dr Harley the options ARE Plan A or Plan B (and I know from you thread you are not ready for Plan D). And Plan B is about protecting your $LB and yourself from the abuse of an affair. Recovery for you. Are you losing love for her?

One of my biggest difficulties in adjusting to my situation is feeling so powerless. I can not change my WH's decisions and I find I often launch into fantasies of "options' that might make a difference. It can be very VERY hard to accept a waywards behaviour when we see the stupidity of their actions, the waste. But they need to see this for themselves and us desperately seeking a quick fix is not going to make a difference.

So you either continue in Plan A... or move to Plan B.

Where is your $LB at?
Originally Posted by Caracal
Are you losing love for her?

I believe I'm losing RESPECT for her

Originally Posted by Caracal
One of my biggest difficulties in adjusting to my situation is feeling so powerless. I can not change my WH's decisions and I find I often launch into fantasies of "options' that might make a difference. It can be very VERY hard to accept a waywards behaviour when we see the stupidity of their actions, the waste. But they need to see this for themselves and us desperately seeking a quick fix is not going to make a difference.

Powerless......that is exactly the proper word to describe my feelings TONIGHT!!
There are no magic words......are there?.....to change this.

Originally Posted by Caracal
So you either continue in Plan A... or move to Plan B.
Where is your $LB at?

Today was BIG withdrawl from my $LB on her part.
I honestly CANNOT assess my $LB balance for the Wife tonight.....I'm not depressed.......I am disappointed in her.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/08/11 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Powerless......that is exactly the proper word to describe my feelings TONIGHT!!

Originally Posted by Caracal
So you either continue in Plan A... or move to Plan B.
Where is your $LB at?

Today was BIG withdrawl from my $LB on her part.
I honestly CANNOT assess my $LB balance for the Wife tonight.....I'm not depressed.......I am disappointed in her.
Bill, we may be betrayed, but we are not powerless (though we all feel that way at times). And you have every right to feel disappointed in her, that is natural, she is making selfish decisions that are tearing down everything you know, love and value. I will borrow something I read that might strike a chord, did for me:
"A marriage, in the simplest of terms, is the output of two people. If itļæ½s broken beyond repair, then the implication is that one of the partners is broken. They can run from the marriage, but theyļæ½re only running away from themselves. And if you run from yourself wherever you go, are you ever really there?

That being said, there are still a few hard truths to consider. Sometimes when the affair breaks, the wayward partner will not return to the marriage out of not wanting to face their shame, devaluation, and taking the path of least perceived resistance. Sometimes, the affair will continue out of pride and a need to justify that what they were doing was right. In both cases, theyļæ½ll often enter a downward spiral of making poor choices in effort to prove something to themselves, which perpetuates a cycle of self destruction. They may very well continue their behavior until the end of their days and be left scratching their heads wondering what the common link to all of their problems are. However, there are a few that will face themselves, learn to take responsibility, and ensure that they begin taking positive and constructive steps forward to commit to their emotional balance and health. After all, they are in charge of their own destiny and happiness. Character is destiny. We build that character with every decision we make and that, ultimately, is what guides us through life. We cannot escape the consequences of the decisions we make or that others make - but even against all odds we can always rise above adversity. Every person is responsible for his or her character and qualities and has the capacity to gain new qualities and extend our influence. You included."

YOU are not powerless, YOU are choosing to rise above adversity, YOU are not running from yourself or others. YOU are building your character in a positive way. And another lesson learned from infidelity... patience. Sleep tonight, you do not have to decide about Plan A or B when you feel you have just experienced another rejection. Rest. Take care of yourself.
Originally Posted by Caracal
......she is making selfish decisions that are tearing down everything you know, love and value.


And I tried to offer my hand to my Wife......and got treated like a doormat.
NO MORE!

Originally Posted by Caracal
"A marriage, in the simplest of terms, is the output of two people. If itļæ½s broken beyond repair, then the implication is that one of the partners is broken. They can run from the marriage, but theyļæ½re only running away from themselves. And if you run from yourself wherever you go, are you ever really there?

No arguing with that!

Originally Posted by Caracal
Sometimes when the affair breaks, the wayward partner will not return to the marriage out of not wanting to face their shame, devaluation, and taking the path of least perceived resistance.

THAT and the Wife is MAD - MAD - MAD that I exposed her cheating activities to MANY people who thought she was the "Perfect Good Wife".
Her anger is probably the driving force behind her behavior now.

Originally Posted by Caracal
...theyļæ½ll often enter a downward spiral of making poor choices in effort to prove something to themselves, which perpetuates a cycle of self destruction. They may very well continue their behavior until the end of their days and be left scratching their heads wondering what the common link to all of their problems are.

Self-delusion......keeping up the "act"......"We don't need Bill anymore, he was mean to me!"
Discard the truth.....perpetuate the facade!!!

Originally Posted by Caracal
However, there are a few that will face themselves, learn to take responsibility, and ensure that they begin taking positive and constructive steps forward to commit to their emotional balance and health. After all, they are in charge of their own destiny and happiness.

I hope.....but doubt she will do that. And I can't stop it!

Originally Posted by Caracal
Character is destiny. We build that character with every decision we make and that, ultimately, is what guides us through life. We cannot escape the consequences of the decisions we make or that others make - but even against all odds we can always rise above adversity. Every person is responsible for his or her character and qualities and has the capacity to gain new qualities and extend our influence. You included.
YOU are not powerless, YOU are choosing to rise above adversity, YOU are not running from yourself or others. YOU are building your character in a positive way.

My Counselor recently told me: "Bravery and Heroism isn't measured by how many times you get knocked down......but by how many times you get back up."
THIS TIME....it's a slow rising.
In past when I had negative events in life I would IMMEDIATELY move to stand up...THIS TIME (Days immediately after D-Day) I asked myself "Do I want to stand up?"
The answer is YES!!!.......but I'm doing it slower than I'd like to believe.
At least I am HONEST with that face I see in the mirror!
I see my flaws and want to repair them....I pray that God will make me a better man.....and a better Husband.

Originally Posted by Caracal
And another lesson learned from infidelity... patience. Sleep tonight, you do not have to decide about Plan A or B when you feel you have just experienced another rejection. Rest. Take care of yourself.

Patience?.....I'm NOT good at that skill, but it looks like I'm going to learn!!! Ugh
Thank You Caracal.
THANK YOU!
I will sleep.....I still have to use medication to do it....but tonight I will sleep.
Posted By: mason Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/09/11 01:16 AM
Good Luck Bill! I wish you the best. I have been separated for a year (Latbor Day) and I have been angry, I just thought things would be different. Let youe wife pay her $80.00, she spent it, let herpay for it. Do not think that is out of Plan A. I would say of you need the money I will help, but this is your bill, let me know.... Funny, how they can ask for $$$$.
I was thinking about the anger over exposure thing just now, and it IS infuriating to know your spouse is so proud to be yours, and so confidant in themselves, that they will scream it from the rooftops that it's so.

Like I said before, it's the closest we can get to beating our chests in this world and challenging the competition

I love your sigline bill, that you are crazy about her, that's passion.

Yeah she's eating cake, and seeing how you will react. I think Indie nailed it too, seems like she wanted your attention

Do you have the financials and legal steps in place? Then read up on plan B and put your foot down. Before she does more damage to your love B
Originally Posted by celticvoyage
Anyway, the point is, who in their right mind would go to their husband and ask for relationship advice with their lover whom they are having an argument with? It's sheer insanity. They aren't thinking straight and I wouldn't read anything more into it than she has truly taken leave of her senses...

Bill my WH was dumped two weeks ago by his skankho, and he had the nerve to come to my home and beg me to become friends with her, asked me to call her and tell her the kids will love her, and basically wanted me to call her and make nice so she would get back together with him.

All I did was laugh. When they are in the fog their minds are completely gone. Nothing can be taken serious, and all we can do is educate others to understand how the fog means nothing.

Your WW will be back with time. Anger can only last so long. It is really exhausting to be that angry.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Do you have the financials and legal steps in place? Then read up on plan B and put your foot down. Before she does more damage to your love B

Yes, all details in place.....Plan B????.....I didn't want this to happen.
Had the fantasy that the Wife would suddenly come to her senses....the "Alien" would go away.....the REAL wife would reappear.
Today...THIS morning...I STILL don't know who that woman is anymore.
I STILL don't know who that woman is anymore.

Several thoughts come to me about your situation.

1) That statement above is a very powerful spur to keep you "aligned" with the task that lies before you. Concentrating on the fact that this person is an absolute stranger will certainly define your optimum actions/responses to events. ("You need to give ME $80 because YOU changed phone providers!" "Excuse me, do I know you?")

2) As you go to "Plan B", you will continue for a while to have interactions about (not with) WW with friends and relations. Focus on your shock at the change in your WW - her attitude, her lack of morals, her self-absorption - in those discussions. To them, NEVER include self-deprecating statements such as "Well, I guess I wasn't the ideal....." Remember, part of Plan B is to deny WW "aid and comfort". Primarily this will be YOUR aid and comfort, but it doesn't hurt to have her know that third parties have the true picture of her deceit and immorality.
We all hope that Bill, we all see a different person that we thought was who WS was

It was they who created the idiot that wants to destroy the marrige

NG has a good point, think about it, and know that she has let the cheese slip off her cracker

No negotiations with terrorists
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/10/11 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Bill my WH was dumped two weeks ago by his skankho, and he had the nerve to come to my home and beg me to become friends with her, asked me to call her and tell her the kids will love her, and basically wanted me to call her and make nice so she would get back together with him.

All I did was laugh. When they are in the fog their minds are completely gone. Nothing can be taken serious, and all we can do is educate others to understand how the fog means nothing.

Toughlove, glad to hear an update on what is happening for you... and oh, love that karma bus has finally caught up with WH. Using you as an affair coach though... oh dear! Foggy, foggy, FOGGY! Keep your headlights on toughlove! And proceed with caution...
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/10/11 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Yes, all details in place.....Plan B????.....I didn't want this to happen.
Had the fantasy that the Wife would suddenly come to her senses....the "Alien" would go away.....the REAL wife would reappear.
Today...THIS morning...I STILL don't know who that woman is anymore.
Bill, none of us wanted this to happen... it is sad, tragic really, that WS's take leave of their senses, morals, integrity and self-respect. And we are left to suffer the consequences, to carry the burden, to grieve for what we once shared with our real spouse.

I know Dr Harley suggests men have the ability to remain in Plan A for longer then women... you can be proud of your efforts and optimism, no way would I have been able to cope as long as you have! Is your $LB now draining? Are you at risk of waking up one day and realising the love is gone? How many more serious withdrawals could WW make before it is empty?

Very importantly Bill, is Plan A starting to take its toll on you... How are YOU?
Originally Posted by Caracal
Is your $LB now draining? Are you at risk of waking up one day and realising the love is gone? How many more serious withdrawals could WW make before it is empty?

Very importantly Bill, is Plan A starting to take its toll on you... How are YOU?

I am scared to answer that question.......because I am afraid that one morning I will wake up and realize "The Love for her is gone."

How many more SERIOUS withdrawals before it's empty? Not many!

As for me?......I have good days, I have bad days.....I need medication to sleep......the occasional pill to slow the anxiety during the day.
ANY contact with the current "Alien" Wife causes me anxiety.
That's where I am.
I had to work a late shift yesterday....3pm to 11pm
As I worked, my never slowing brain pondered the last 4 months, I found myself getting REALLY ANGRY at WW for all of this garbage she caused and now blames ME FOR!!.
Then on the ride home I was OK and remembering the good times.
Ups and downs......ugh!
It's part of the roller coaster. Part of what helps you hang on... Remember those time that were lovely, that were good, that were pure and beautiful between you two. Withdrawal can take up to 6 months in some spouses.

I went through a several month lull while she was working and not in a fog.... I felt like I was losing love for her. It was in fact, my working through the hurt and pain. it cleared and I was able to begin working again in a less introverted self focused way.

CV
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
It's part of the roller coaster. Part of what helps you hang on... Remember those time that were lovely, that were good, that were pure and beautiful between you two. Withdrawal can take up to 6 months in some spouses.

I went through a several month lull while she was working and not in a fog.... I felt like I was losing love for her. It was in fact, my working through the hurt and pain. it cleared and I was able to begin working again in a less introverted self focused way.
CV

It's been 4 months since WW moved out. (I didn't know about the A yet)
It's been 2 months since D-Day and exposure.
These last 2 months seem like 2 YEARS of HE!!.
The Wife is still blame-shifting and is still in "Alien Fog Babble" on the very few incidents where she communicates with me.
"Working through the hurt and pain".....it's SO TOUGH!
You said withdrawal......me?....or her?
Withdrawal for you, it still hurts even when you are around a really messed up person, when they leave your life, there is still some withdrawal.

How we get healthy again is ussualy based on how we address life everyday.. Are we buyers, or freeloaders or renters by nature..

How do we respond normally to the demands we have in front of us. In the end we are responsible for ourselves and how many lies we will believe.

And as you have seen, lies are very popular with some people at some times. So much they keep them a secret, so they can play make-believe, until they don't know the difference between them and the truth.

You just keep real during all this Bill, it will take time, but here you have a safe place to get advice
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
It's been 4 months since WW moved out. (I didn't know about the A yet)
It's been 2 months since D-Day and exposure.
These last 2 months seem like 2 YEARS of HE!!.

Dday is really the starting point for recovery (personally or otherwise). I definitely understand the he77. It is an apt description of the physical and spiritual anguish the BS goes through.


The Wife is still blame-shifting and is still in "Alien Fog Babble" on the very few incidents where she communicates with me.
"Working through the hurt and pain".....it's SO TOUGH!
You said withdrawal......me?....or her?

I guess my point was that recovery is recovery. Whether it is yu on your own or with her by your side. Us BS's also experience a type of fog, a certain sense in which we go through withdrawal as well.

CV
YES us BS do go through a fog during personal recovery too. We withdrawal from the contact with the ws and from the trauma of their drama and the fog babble we had to deal with all the time (and sounds like you're still dealing with).

Remember the goal Bill. Remember the goal. Shoot for the goal. Do your best. Remember when the alien speaks, it is like she is speaking in an alien tongue. Makes no sense. So don't really listen. Just try to implement plan A points when you can.

Be your sig line!
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Withdrawal for you, it still hurts even when you are around a really messed up person, when they leave your life, there is still some withdrawal.

Dr. Harley is CORRECT.....absolute worst time of my life.

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
And as you have seen, lies are very popular with some people at some times. So much they keep them a secret, so they can play make-believe, until they don't know the difference between them and the truth.

I call that my Wifes "Facade".....the "make believe appearance" she wants people to believe she is.
With exposure I took away the facade.....and I really believe THAT is what she is most angry with me about.
Where is she going to hide now?

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
You just keep real during all this Bill, it will take time, but here you have a safe place to get advice

I have begun to be Open & Honest with myself on a daily basis!!.......with that guy in the mirror.
I like that guy!! hurray
Thank You CP

Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Dday is really the starting point for recovery (personally or otherwise). I definitely understand the he77. It is an apt description of the physical and spiritual anguish the BS goes through.

D-Day is CRUSHING!!
And the Fog for us BS's? It's TRUE! I honestly don't remember a great deal of the 3 weeks after D-Day.....it remembers like some distorted bad dream.
My Counselor say that fog is a form of PTSD.....and I believe it!
I'm still having attention and recall issues on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I guess my point was that recovery is recovery. Whether it is yu on your own or with her by your side. CV

It's too bad that the recovery I want is the two of us in our Marriage and all WW wants is to recover her facade and blame me for it all.....my Wife will see that our Marriage is/was recoverable.....one day.....the question is, will it be too late?

Originally Posted by peachyisback
YES us BS do go through a fog during personal recovery too. We withdrawal from the contact with the ws and from the trauma of their drama and the fog babble we had to deal with all the time (and sounds like you're still dealing with).

But.....I'm starting to get good at seeing her babble as pure barf!!!
But my heart has a problem understanding that.

Originally Posted by peachyisback
Remember the goal Bill. Remember the goal. Shoot for the goal. Do your best. Remember when the alien speaks, it is like she is speaking in an alien tongue. Makes no sense. So don't really listen. Just try to implement plan A points when you can.

Implementing Plan A points with an Foggy Alien is, at times, like trying to explain Nuclear Physics to a 4 year old. crazy
YOU know you're making sense!.....but the Foggy 4 year old Alien is clueless!
But....that Foggy 4 year old Alien DOES understand behavior ......don't they?

Originally Posted by peachyisback
Be your sig line!

OK Peachy......you GOT me there!
It's my sig-line....I mean it!!... so I'd better LIVE IT!!!!

Thanks CP, CV, PIB
You got me through another Plan A Day!!!!!
1 day at a time!!.......it's 1 day at a time!!

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I guess my point was that recovery is recovery. Whether it is yu on your own or with her by your side. CV

It's too bad that the recovery I want is the two of us in our Marriage and all WW wants is to recover her facade and blame me for it all.....my Wife will see that our Marriage is/was recoverable.....one day.....the question is, will it be too late?

Have you told her this? That *right now* the marriage is recoverable? Defering to the others here if they think it is a bad idea, but to just say it in those words... Very plain and soft spoken. Nothing to lose.


Thanks CP, CV, PIB
You got me through another Plan A Day!!!!!
1 day at a time!!.......it's 1 day at a time!!

Sometimes that's all we can muster is one day at a time. And it's enough. Tomorrow is always a new day, and new days always have hope.
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I guess my point was that recovery is recovery. Whether it is yu on your own or with her by your side. CV

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
It's too bad that the recovery I want is the two of us in our Marriage and all WW wants is to recover her facade and blame me for it all.....my Wife will see that our Marriage is/was recoverable.....one day.....the question is, will it be too late?

Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Have you told her this? That *right now* the marriage is recoverable? Defering to the others here if they think it is a bad idea, but to just say it in those words... Very plain and soft spoken. Nothing to lose.

I have been VERY clear to her about my wishes and willingness to recover our Marriage. I just keep getting refused and pushed away.
The Alien factor is HUGE on her end.....the fog-babble is massive and deep.
It's like nothing I have EVER seen before. My Wife just isn't there......my "Real Wife" might be in there.....but she isn't in control.
She won't take responsibility for what she has done. She is blame-shifting and making me the bad guy, because I exposed her far and wide, in order to cope.
It's very sad.

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
You got me through another Plan A Day!!!!!
1 day at a time!!.......it's 1 day at a time!!

Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Sometimes that's all we can muster is one day at a time. And it's enough. Tomorrow is always a new day, and new days always have hope.


And it IS day by day that I can cope.....each day I ask God for the strength to get through ONE MORE DAY.
I don't want to get bitter.....just don't need it!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I have been VERY clear to her about my wishes and willingness to recover our Marriage. I just keep getting refused and pushed away.
The Alien factor is HUGE on her end.....the fog-babble is massive and deep.
It's like nothing I have EVER seen before. My Wife just isn't there......my "Real Wife" might be in there.....but she isn't in control.
She won't take responsibility for what she has done. She is blame-shifting and making me the bad guy, because I exposed her far and wide, in order to cope.
It's very sad.

And it IS day by day that I can cope.....each day I ask God for the strength to get through ONE MORE DAY.
I don't want to get bitter.....just don't need it!

I had to stop a sec and think... I remember doing this for 9 months with my W when she was in the A. I couldn't prove the A and she wasn't admitting. Laid a lot of crap on me to change, etc... No responsibility at all.

I didn't know what plan A was, but was plan A-ing my butt off. It DID pay off. the fog lifted for us on Dday. I had forgotten that I was the bad guy for pushing and pushing. But you know what? If we gotta be bad guys, let's be bad guys for doing the right thing!

CV
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Sometimes that's all we can muster is one day at a time. And it's enough. Tomorrow is always a new day, and new days always have hope.

And it IS day by day that I can cope.....each day I ask God for the strength to get through ONE MORE DAY.
I don't want to get bitter.....just don't need it!

I remember an old song, one that I used to sing at times of trial, heartaches and confusion, years ago. "Minute by minute" by The Doobie bros. with Micheal Mcdonald. It seems that even when we don't have the ability to make it day by day there is a provision to make it minute by minute. From what I know about God he gives us second by second also..nanosecond by nanosecond..its unmeasurable in our understanding.

We can trust in the right thing to do, or pervert it by making a compromise for a few crumbs of what it should be. Those decisions of what we will accept are our choices, and when it comes down to what we respect marraige as, thats our choice also.

If someone wishes to compromise the marraige, and drag it down, compare it, and not work on what they have allready, they are cutting thier own throat, and they do not see it. Its like sand was thrown in thier eyes.

This is why waywards allways affair down, and at best spend thier lives making excuses and convincing themselves of flimsy reasons why they quit thier marriages for the next affariage, or worse the next AP, or next Boy or girl friend..

God will not honor those people, thier hearts and attitudes, or give them peace, but mostly they will not really know love as it was meant to be. Ask any recovered marriage, or a healthy one, and you will hear the same. "I am supposed to be married to so-n-so and I have absolutly no doubt!"

I will pray WW will come around to God again and put Him in charge also Bill. In Him we can trust our hearts
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I have been VERY clear to her about my wishes and willingness to recover our Marriage. I just keep getting refused and pushed away.

I had to stop a sec and think... I remember doing this for 9 months with my W when she was in the A. I couldn't prove the A and she wasn't admitting. Laid a lot of crap on me to change, etc... No responsibility at all.

I didn't know what plan A was, but was plan A-ing my butt off. It DID pay off. the fog lifted for us on Dday. I had forgotten that I was the bad guy for pushing and pushing. But you know what? If we gotta be bad guys, let's be bad guys for doing the right thing!

CV

When the WW and I were in Marriage Counseling (before WW left the house and before D-Day) the Counselor asked us both "Are you in an affair?"
WW lied to the Counselor and said "NO".
But WW had no problem listing my faults to the Counselor.
Now.....WW was correct about many of those faults, and the pain of that is difficult for me now also.....BUT I ACCEPT THAT AND I AM WILLING TO CHANGE!.....for my own betterment and for my Marriage.
I'm NOT giving up!!
"Let's be bad guys for doing the right thing!"
I LIKE IT!!
hurray MY DAUGHTER CALLED ME TODAY!!!

DD was crying at one point......she is obviously emotionally overloaded.
I WILL NOT increase her emotional burden!
We are having dinner tomorrow.
I WILL keep dinner discussion tomorrow about DD and I ......NOT about her Mom!
DD has had WAY TOO MUCH emotional trauma in this.

THANK YOU LORD for my DD!!
hurray YAY, Bill! I was hoping she would come around!
Good news,
just reassure her your relationship will not change, tell you missed her very much but wanted to give her time to absorb the news and the changes but glad she is okay and willing to continue contact........
make a pack to get together and stay in contact having the relationship be just about you two.
jessi

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
hurray MY DAUGHTER CALLED ME TODAY!!!

DD was crying at one point......she is obviously emotionally overloaded.
I WILL NOT increase her emotional burden!
We are having dinner tomorrow.
I WILL keep dinner discussion tomorrow about DD and I ......NOT about her Mom!
DD has had WAY TOO MUCH emotional trauma in this.

THANK YOU LORD for my DD!!

dance2 Just love on her. Let her direct the conversation. If she needs to talk, let her talk.

CV
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
hurray MY DAUGHTER CALLED ME TODAY!!!

DD was crying at one point......she is obviously emotionally overloaded.
I WILL NOT increase her emotional burden!
We are having dinner tomorrow.
I WILL keep dinner discussion tomorrow about DD and I ......NOT about her Mom!
DD has had WAY TOO MUCH emotional trauma in this.

THANK YOU LORD for my DD!!

dance2 Just love on her. Let her direct the conversation. If she needs to talk, let her talk.

CV

And given time, she may end up being your biggest ally in bringing your W around.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/15/11 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
hurray MY DAUGHTER CALLED ME TODAY!!!

hurray Great news Bill!!! I noticed you had been quiet on the boards so glad to hear you have gotten good news.

Enjoy the time with your DD at dinner. Listen to her... if she steers the conversation to WW, she may want to get things off her chest and I think you should let her. Just remember that if you lovebust about your WW, you are lovebusting DD's mother.

Wow, this gives you a chance to show your commitment to maintaining your relationship with your DD despite your WW's actions. DD will see the man you are, the example you are setting for her with relationships. Bon appetit Bill!
UGH...... frown
DD canceled our dinner.....said she "doesn't feel good, didn't sleep well last night".
I believe her......she sounded tortured on the phone.....I'm sure the anxiety is hitting her too.
I will give her space........give her time.
She called me yesterday....she will call again.
But....Dad DOES worry about her!
Thank you for your support!!
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/15/11 10:44 PM
Hang in there Bill, she WILL call. Give her time.

Sorry about your disappointment though...

Do something nice for yourself... maybe go out with friends for dinnner instead?
Something Strange happened this week.

As you know the WW has broken off all contact with me after the exposure (July 2011...WW left moved out of the May 2011).

There are two friends here in the town where I live, a Husband/Wife couple, that my wife and I shared our lives with for the last 3 years. (I'll use the names Tom & Carol for simplicity)
The four of us would share our sporting events together (all four of us are HEAVILY INVOLVED in this sport), we shared lunches, dinners, picnics, birthdays, out of town events.
We were close as two couples can be. Even they noticed the change in in my Wife over the last 12 to 18 months.

When WW left the house in May she cut off ALL contact with them. NOT ONE WORD to them after moving.

This couple has saved my life during this separation, D-Day, exposure and my ongoing emotional recovery. I owe my mental and physical health to their Love and support!!!
EVERYONE in WW's small circle knows that this couple has been my emotional salvation during this.

So......last week.......out of the blue......Carol gets a text message from WW that says "I miss you. Hope You and Tom are doing well."

I think reality is kicking in for WW......because this is VERY unlike the WW and the WW KNOWS that Tom and Carol are COMPLETELY aware of the entire affair and events.

Interesting.....but strange.



Quote
Carol gets a text message from WW that says "I miss you. Hope You and Tom are doing well."
It sounds like WW is missing this part of her 'old' life and sent out a feeler to Carol. Possibly she is hoping to get some sort of absolution from someone she was close to (in order to feel better about herself), possibly to see if their friendship can resume in WW's new 'altered' world.

How did Carol respond?
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
Carol gets a text message from WW that says "I miss you. Hope You and Tom are doing well."
It sounds like WW is missing this part of her 'old' life and sent out a feeler to Carol. Possibly she is hoping to get some sort of absolution from someone she was close to (in order to feel better about herself), possibly to see if their friendship can resume in WW's new 'altered' world.

How did Carol respond?

Carol responded in a Neutral manner.....and received a curt "I'm happy" response.

This may get interesting.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
Carol gets a text message from WW that says "I miss you. Hope You and Tom are doing well."
It sounds like WW is missing this part of her 'old' life and sent out a feeler to Carol. Possibly she is hoping to get some sort of absolution from someone she was close to (in order to feel better about herself), possibly to see if their friendship can resume in WW's new 'altered' world.

How did Carol respond?

Carol responded in a Neutral manner.....and received a curt "I'm happy" response.

This may get interesting.

Bill: This does sound interesting. I'm not sure what the right protocol is, but my gut is telling me that you should encourage Carol to try to sway your wife to give up her AP and that you'd be thrilled to being to restore your marriage. But that, of course, you wouldn't be a doormat to her cake-eating.

Not sure, but having people remind her what she's giving up, how hurtful her actions are, how willing you are (with precautions, etc), might give her the opening she needs?

Hopefully, someone withe more Plan B experience will chime in.

Cheers,
SP
Sweet Pea, I think you missed something - Carol and her H were friends of Bill and his WW. She's not having an affair.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
It sounds like WW is missing this part of her 'old' life and sent out a feeler to Carol. Possibly she is hoping to get some sort of absolution from someone she was close to (in order to feel better about herself), possibly to see if their friendship can resume in WW's new 'altered' world.

Yes it sounds like the old adage about how horrible it was at home with all the chores to do, the dishes to wash, taking out the trash, Oh it was just horrible!

Then you start to realize just how good you had it, and miss the lifestyle, that you had somehow come to hate.

She probably wants to reconnect with Carol, but with her new self, and be accepted just as she is now. Want it all with no repercussions? Yes.

My DD was 19 when my WW then fully relapsed into Alcohol and living with a dim-witted drinker and Coke-head. She was invited over with her BF at the time to have dinner with them at dimwits house, so she being a graciuos and polite girl who missed her old family life and Mom, went over.

She heard her Mom telling all the tall tales of how wonderful it was going to be, they were going to buy a house, and la-de-dada.. She must have put on such an act..

But my DD, calmly and clearly said, "Thats nice Mom, but we will never be visiting you there" It must have torn my little girl apart, because it shocked my WW, from what I heard, and my DD loved her Mom dearly. But DD kept her composure, and was waiting till the day WW died to see her Mom come back to earth, so we could all be together again.

She knew what Mom was doing was a slap in the face to all of us who had been working to support the family, and to my 24-7 work ethic, for what was true and sound, all of our lives.

See Carol and Tom have that same opportunity, and I hope they take it, to help bring WW back to earth. So much temptation to pick apart those closest to you, and tear apart those who hold you up. I hope they stand for marriage, and do not compromise it.

Proverbs 16:32
He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

Your WW does not know what spirit she is of ATM, and a calm reminder that she is wrong, and is disrespecting herself and all that is given for her protection and health, would be good news for her, even if she does not want to hear it.

Praying she will hear it Bill
Just had to add that my xwh, Darth, also tried to reconnect with our pre-divorce friends also and was SHUNNED by them. She is trying to get the friends to ACCEPT the affair partner, and of course real friends WILL NOT.

So she will learn a boundary. I am not sure if she is pining away for her old life. She may be by now (prob a little bit), but when you're knee deep in fog (or something else that's stinky)you just are that way, stupidly fogged out. And in that state, she is wanting to gain acceptance for her affair.

She doesn't like being shunned by your "couple" friends. She misses that and what she had (legitimacy) and is seeking that now with the former friends.

Imho, best thing to do is like the other poster said, and have the other friends TELL HER ADULTERY IS WRONG AND THAT THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT OM. That puts a boundary in place and also nails another coffin in the affair fantasy she has created.

In affairland, ww is imaginging a world where YOU pay all her bills, the OM just caters to her every whim, and she retains all her assets she shared in the marriage, and also has the love and respect of all her friends because "she was so brave to have to leave her marriage". That is the DREAM of every stinkin' wayward.

Didya know that? That is their common dream. And it's our job to make sure they find out IT IS ONLY A DREAM and that reality is far far different.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Sweet Pea, I think you missed something - Carol and her H were friends of Bill and his WW. She's not having an affair.

No, I understood it. Carol is friend of Bill's. Wayward wife reached out to Carol. Carol was neutral. Wouldn't it be better for Carol to tell WS to clean up her act so that WW can return to the man that truly loves her (I had to re-edit this last part)?

That's what I was trying to say, but probably came out mangled.
Oops, make that and have WW get back to the man who truly loves her?

Hope THAT makes sense. D'oh!
LOL sweetpea! Yes, I understand what you're saying and totally agree. Bill, can you ask Carol to be clear to WW that their friendship cannot withstand an affair? Would she be willing to do that?
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
It sounds like WW is missing this part of her 'old' life and sent out a feeler to Carol.

Yes it sounds like the old adage about how horrible it was at home with all the chores to do, the dishes to wash, taking out the trash, Oh it was just horrible!

Then you start to realize just how good you had it, and miss the lifestyle, that you had somehow come to hate.

LOL.....oh I'm sure she misses some of the "old life".....I can count on 1 hand the amount of times my Wife did dishes in 12 years of Marriage! I DID THE DISHES!!...I DID THE COOKING!!!.....and on the other hand I can count the number of times she took out the trash!! I DID IT!!!
Terrible life......you'd have to agree how abused she was... dramaqueen

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Your WW does not know what spirit she is of ATM, and a calm reminder that she is wrong, and is disrespecting herself and all that is given for her protection and health, would be good news for her, even if she does not want to hear it.
Praying she will hear it Bill

I Pray for her and my DD every day!!
Thanks

Originally Posted by peachyisback
Just had to add that my xwh, Darth, also tried to reconnect with our pre-divorce friends also and was SHUNNED by them. She is trying to get the friends to ACCEPT the affair partner, and of course real friends WILL NOT.

So she will learn a boundary. I am not sure if she is pining away for her old life. She may be by now (prob a little bit), but when you're knee deep in fog (or something else that's stinky)you just are that way, stupidly fogged out. And in that state, she is wanting to gain acceptance for her affair.

She doesn't like being shunned by your "couple" friends. She misses that and what she had (legitimacy) and is seeking that now with the former friends.

I couldn't agree more!.......WW is "fishing".....that's why she texted Carol instead of Tom......Tom would have been tough love from the start!......Carol wants to "fish" back.

My WW is in deep!.....she just isn't quite aware yet what stinky stuff she's in!
She's trying to find if ANYONE is one her side.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Bill, can you ask Carol to be clear to WW that their friendship cannot withstand an affair? Would she be willing to do that?

Carol and Tom are on board!!
They are FULLY WILLING to do that.
Carol was trying to draw WW out first.....nothing back to Carol from WW as of today.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Carol and Tom are on board!!
They are FULLY WILLING to do that.
Carol was trying to draw WW out first.....nothing back to Carol from WW as of today.

Good deal!


Bill, how's it going buddy?

CV
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/24/11 12:28 PM
Hey bill how ya doin today...thinking about ya
Yesterday.....I had dinner with my Beautiful DD.....it was wonderful.
She seems to be doing emotionally OK.
DD mentioned "I never thought I'd have to go through another divorce".
I replied "If it was up to me alone, you wouldn't be going through THIS separation, but I need your Mom to participate, not ignore me."
DD replied "You gotta move on Dad."

HOW DO I FIGHT THAT?!?!

My Wife has convinced our DD that it's over......how do I fight that?

My Wife won't even communicate with me?.....how do I fight that?

I am the ONLY one who wants to get to recovery.....and I CANNOT do it by myself.

Technically my WW has pushed us into Plan B......and I am powerless to change it or to influence her mind and thoughts.

9/20 was my Birthday....and I just felt so alone. It was a bad day......NOTHING from my Wife.
DD sent me a text message, not even a card or call......just a "Happy Birthday" text message.....THAT was kinda rude.
I received other texts from my MIL.....so at least it was something.
The local Family that I have had for 15 years is now gone.....because it's the WW's Family.....and I'm alone.

The Wife is still so mad about exposure that she is DRIVEN to punish me by ignoring me...(she lives outside the home)...I've sent cards, texts, letters......all get ignored.
Bottom line: I'm being punished for exposing her, for showing our world that she's a fraud, for showing the world that she's NOT the good wife they all thought she was.
As for any remorse....it was brief....UNTIL she found out about the exposure.
From that point on....I became the enemy in her eyes.
The Woman I fell in Love with....the Wife I married.....is gone.
What's left?.....a childish, immature shell of a woman who is so insecure about her damaged public facade that she will throw away the man who dedicated over 15 years to her and her daughter!!!
And I'm alone......with the remnants of my own DEEP LOVE for the woman I used to know.....but THAT woman is gone.....and THIS woman is just COLD.
It's like trying to reason with a 16 year old who has an attitude!!!!
IMPOSSIBLE!!!

I pray every day for God to open the eyes and heart of my WW.....or give me someone to Love and to Love me.
I'm told to wait.
I'm not good at that.......and I'm alone.
Not my best week.
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/24/11 01:05 PM
Ok sorry I asked................................................................................................................







Wait a minute no I'm not....where do I start, your 23 yo daughter is a 23 yo daughter....how long has she been married, exactly my point. When we r young we date, wehe we get tired we throw that one away and guess what another date falls in our lap. So I would say that is what she knows....chances r she has never given her heart, soul, blood sweat tears, and put another individual infront of herself....so the move on thing from her..maybe take it for what it's worth.

The text on your birthday thing, ok I don't know how to get a 54 yo man to understand this...I am only 40, I didn't mean it that way, I am not sitting at a computer right now, I am typing you on my phone. It really is how things are done. I get cards from my mom! My ww sends cards, I send texts, most of the time.....hate to say it, if she sent cards in the past it was cause she was reminded to or bought for her.

Bill, what are you doing for yourself.....I really want to know
You are not alone, I. Can say that but I know exactly how you feel
It sucks plain and simple.

I need humor to get by......my friends think I am starting to crack, cause I can sometimes laugh at my sich. Sometimes they even make me laugh! But my sich. Is so f*ed up you could write a sitcom on it.....maybe we are in hopeless situations, but maybe we r not, what's important is our journey to the other side. How are u gonna make that journey.(now I sound like the gay one)

Think about it......you got to have dinner w your D. That is at least a baby step

Remember, lots of us here, and we consider u one of us. U r not alone
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/24/11 01:06 PM
Someones quote


Live, Laugh, Love.

Great words to live by
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Yesterday.....I had dinner with my Beautiful DD.....it was wonderful.
She seems to be doing emotionally OK.
DD mentioned "I never thought I'd have to go through another divorce".
I replied "If it was up to me alone, you wouldn't be going through THIS separation, but I need your Mom to participate, not ignore me."
DD replied "You gotta move on Dad."

HOW DO I FIGHT THAT?!?!


Through careful and persistent explanation of why you want your WW to stop. By making this bigger than yourself. It's not about recovering what Bill wants, it's about doing what is best for your wife because you love her, care for her and cherish her and that you need her help, because if she loves mom, she will help however she can.

My Wife has convinced our DD that it's over......how do I fight that?

My Wife won't even communicate with me?.....how do I fight that?

By doing what I suggested above.

I am the ONLY one who wants to get to recovery.....and I CANNOT do it by myself.

You're right. You cannot recover the marriage like this. *BUT*, if you can get DD on board, you might be able to get things to change.


Technically my WW has pushed us into Plan B......and I am powerless to change it or to influence her mind and thoughts.

9/20 was my Birthday....and I just felt so alone. It was a bad day......NOTHING from my Wife.
DD sent me a text message, not even a card or call......just a "Happy Birthday" text message.....THAT was kinda rude.
I received other texts from my MIL.....so at least it was something.
The local Family that I have had for 15 years is now gone.....because it's the WW's Family.....and I'm alone.

No one is willing to help at all?



It's like trying to reason with a 16 year old who has an attitude!!!!
IMPOSSIBLE!!!

You are right! It is like dealing with an angry teenager. How do you handle an angry and out of control teenager?


Hang in there man. We are here to help

CV
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Yesterday.....I had dinner with my Beautiful DD.....it was wonderful.
She seems to be doing emotionally OK.
DD mentioned "I never thought I'd have to go through another divorce".
I replied "If it was up to me alone, you wouldn't be going through THIS separation, but I need your Mom to participate, not ignore me."
DD replied "You gotta move on Dad."

HOW DO I FIGHT THAT?!?!


Through careful and persistent explanation of why you want your WW to stop. By making this bigger than yourself. It's not about recovering what Bill wants, it's about doing what is best for your wife because you love her, care for her and cherish her and that you need her help, because if she loves mom, she will help however she can.

Maybe that's the best approach.

My Wife has convinced our DD that it's over......how do I fight that?

My Wife won't even communicate with me?.....how do I fight that?

By doing what I suggested above.

I am the ONLY one who wants to get to recovery.....and I CANNOT do it by myself.

You're right. You cannot recover the marriage like this. *BUT*, if you can get DD on board, you might be able to get things to change.


Technically my WW has pushed us into Plan B......and I am powerless to change it or to influence her mind and thoughts.

9/20 was my Birthday....and I just felt so alone. It was a bad day......NOTHING from my Wife.
DD sent me a text message, not even a card or call......just a "Happy Birthday" text message.....THAT was kinda rude.
I received other texts from my MIL.....so at least it was something.
The local Family that I have had for 15 years is now gone.....because it's the WW's Family.....and I'm alone.

No one is willing to help at all?

WW's family is VERY passive and non-confrontational.....if it's "uncomfortable" they just don't deal with it.
My In-laws know what the best pathway is, they've told me so!....but they won't risk too much emotional capital trying to convince their daughter to recover the marriage. They told her once what they thought was the best path, recovery, but won't push the issue any further.
And I've been TOTALLY HONEST with the In-laws about my wishes and efforts I'm willing to go through to achieve recovery.


It's like trying to reason with a 16 year old who has an attitude!!!!
IMPOSSIBLE!!!

You are right! It is like dealing with an angry teenager. How do you handle an angry and out of control teenager?

TELL ME HOW!!

Hang in there man. We are here to help

CV

If my Wife wants NOTHING to do with me......won't talk to me.....NOTHING!......are we in Plan B?
Is a Plan B letter effective AFTER she cuts off communication?
I am FRUSTRATED !!

Additional words from my DD's lips last night during dinner:
"Don't worry about Mom, she's out there finding the things that are going to make her happy."

I replied "Things and activities don't make you happy, you have find happiness inside of you FIRST."

I think she was just trying to reinforce her Mom in her OWN MIND.

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
.......your 23 yo daughter is a 23 yo daughter....how long has she been married, exactly my point. When we r young we date, we get tired we throw that one away and guess what another date falls in our lap. So I would say that is what she knows....chances r she has never given her heart, soul, blood sweat tears, and put another individual infront of herself....so the move on thing from her..maybe take it for what it's worth.

You're exactly right....I heard her talk about her boyfriend last night....and her words sounded like she was still in High School......but here was this stunning 23 year old woman in front of me (Yes! Dad is REAL PROUD of her! I would love to post a picture of her and show you how lovely she is but probably not a good idea) and her concept of relationship is still so juvenile.
No...I don't think that she really understands what is involved in adult relationships yet......maybe my WW doesn't either.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Maybe that's the best approach.

I think at this point it is the only one available to you.


WW's family is VERY passive and non-confrontational.....if it's "uncomfortable" they just don't deal with it.
My In-laws know what the best pathway is, they've told me so!....but they won't risk too much emotional capital trying to convince their daughter to recover the marriage. They told her once what they thought was the best path, recovery, but won't push the issue any further.
And I've been TOTALLY HONEST with the In-laws about my wishes and efforts I'm willing to go through to achieve recovery.


What about another sit down with them asking them point blank to help you achieve recovery of your marriage. My in-laws are like this too. Don't rock any boat for fear of getting wet. Even if the water's only ankle deep. Maybe a firm but gentle approach with them a second (or third) time would work.


You are right! It is like dealing with an angry teenager. How do you handle an angry and out of control teenager?

TELL ME HOW!!

Ok. You have a 23 year old daughter and have been raising her for most of her life. How did you deal with her tantrums and fits? How did your wife deal with them? What was effective? DD is a product of you and your W. Whatever worked with her will likely strike a chord with W as well. I think if you reflected a bit on it, you may have an answer or two.


If my Wife wants NOTHING to do with me......won't talk to me.....NOTHING!......are we in Plan B?
Is a Plan B letter effective AFTER she cuts off communication?
I am FRUSTRATED !!

Additional words from my DD's lips last night during dinner:
"Don't worry about Mom, she's out there finding the things that are going to make her happy."

I replied "Things and activities don't make you happy, you have find happiness inside of you FIRST."

This is true. BUT!!!! She doesn't even know where to look. being wayward means they are lost. It means that they have wandered down another path and cannot find their way back.

I think she was just trying to reinforce her Mom in her OWN MIND.

Most likely. Do you have a restraining order or protective order against you preventing you from heading over to her (FWW) apartment? Meet her there after work. Tell her when you get there you need to talk to her about your divorce. If she will talk, use it as an opportunity to set things out on the table. If you could rally some support in the form of a letter from your IL's and DD, then you have even more ammo when you do this.

CV
Bill, your daughter gave you advice from the information she has at her disposal. "Move on, Dad," is not "Get Lost, Creep," She is giving you her advice for what she sees as your best interest. For doing that she deserves praise, not resentment.

Look, let's assume that she believes that WW is so far into infidelity skank-hood that she is NOT going to return to your marriage. What would you have her say - "Hang in there, Dad, chewing up your liver while Mom continues to live her glorious new life"?

You make the point that one person cannot recover a marriage. While you mouth (or, actually, type) the words, I believe your daughter more clearly comprehends the substance. YOU ARE SUCH A "ONE PERSON"! WW at this time does not have any intention of honoring the vows she made before God and your families (hence my allusion to skank-hood). A WS so far withdrawn as not even willing to communicate is putting her own Plan B in place; whatever you choose to do is arranging the deck chairs on the sinking ship that was once your union.

BUT....the Plan B letter itself is important, because of the CC: list you will include on it. Yes, WW and you seemingly have paths that do not align. For your own reputation (and I'm most directly addressing the 23 year-old in your life), you should:

"lay before mankind the common sense of the subject, in terms so clear as to command their assent" - Ken Howard as Thomas Jefferson in 1776

So, Plan B until you feel your humanity dwindling, then Plan D.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
...the Plan B letter itself is important, because of the CC: list you will include on it.

Sorry.....CC means what?

I didn't see it on the acronym list......and today is not my best "thinking" day.
CC = carbon copy
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Bill, your daughter gave you advice from the information she has at her disposal. "Move on, Dad," is not "Get Lost, Creep," She is giving you her advice for what she sees as your best interest. For doing that she deserves praise, not resentment..

Also remember Bill, she really can't handle this very well, "move on" could just as well mean, "you have to figure it out Dad" Don't forget, this girl is looking to you for strength, and does not want to be giving out advice or holding your hand. Take that as a compliment that you have been at least that effective and that she is not in the habit of worrying about you.

Keep it as simple as possible for her and stay as positive as you can. Simple texts to her daily of simple "I Love you"'s and general chit chat might help her, which I know you want, to come to you later when things get tough in her life. She knows you will allways be there for her. She will lean towards the strongest, which is you.
Yeah get that plan B letter out
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/25/11 03:36 AM
Bill, so sorry you have had a rough week. But I agree with other posters, focus on the positive, you got to enjoy dinner with DD. And also, a belated HappyBirthday from all of us at MB cheering for you!

Bill, sounds to me as though YOU need Plan B. I was in similar situation in that WH was reducing contact prior to my Plan B, I think it was too difficult for him to face me and easier to compartmentalize by avoiding me. Talking with me made it more difficult for him to suppress his feelings for me, and his shame. Regardless, I clearly needed Plan B and the Plan B letter is a necessity regardless of whether your WS has ceased contact. Plan B is more then just no contact; it is the path the WS needs to follow should they ever wish to return to the light, it gives the directions they need to follow to reach that light.

I think if you decide to enter Plan B you might want to share the conditions with DD after you have given letter to WW... but I'm still learning so check what others think.

My b'day is this week Bill, and I am dreading it TBH, even though I am having dinner out with friends / family. I expect there will be a big vent on my thread in the next few days, LOL! But hey, it's my party and I'll cry if I want to wink
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/25/11 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
where do I start, your 23 yo daughter is a 23 yo daughter....how long has she been married, exactly my point. When we r young we date, wehe we get tired we throw that one away and guess what another date falls in our lap. So I would say that is what she knows....chances r she has never given her heart, soul, blood sweat tears, and put another individual infront of herself....so the move on thing from her..maybe take it for what it's worth.
Sorry to threadjack Bill, but when I read TTFG's post I grinned like a cheshire grin What with WH's OW just turned 23...
Originally Posted by Caracal
My b'day is this week Bill, and I am dreading it TBH, even though I am having dinner out with friends / family. I expect there will be a big vent on my thread in the next few days, LOL! But hey, it's my party and I'll cry if I want to wink

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Caracal!!!!
Originally Posted by Caracal
Bill, sounds to me as though YOU need Plan B. I was in similar situation in that WH was reducing contact prior to my Plan B, I think it was too difficult for him to face me and easier to compartmentalize by avoiding me. Talking with me made it more difficult for him to suppress his feelings for me, and his shame.

Over the last few months I've extended a hand to my Wife to let her know that I am willing to begin recovery, I've sent her cards, let her Mother/Father and family know that I'm willing to begin to put it back together and that THERE IS A VALID PLAN AND PROCEDURE TO DO THAT!

The response from her has been SILENCE!!!

So....looks like it's Plan B time.....what else can I do?

But......I still feel like I've failed......and I know that's NOT true.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/25/11 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
But......I still feel like I've failed......and I know that's NOT true.
Bill, just a reminder that a true Plan A means to leave your expectations at the door. I know, easier said than done (actually, I even had expectations in Plan B, so who am I to talk?) But if you have no expectations, how can you fail?

On a different note Bill, the old adage "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" rings true. You have made every effort to show WW you are committed to recovery. If she fails to commit to recovery, this is not your failure, it is hers. I am really starting to see that waywardness is NOT about the BS, it is all about the wayward. No amount of pleading with the crack addict or gestures to show your commitment to them changing will make any difference until the addict themself recognises the need and commits to change.

I know these words can't change what you feel... but I hope they help.

Quote
So....looks like it's Plan B time.....what else can I do?
Bill, it is time for Plan B... because YOU deserve to remove yourself from her drama. Despite her lack of contact, you are reacting, planning and desperate to think of ways to win her back. I've been there. Sometimes still am, even in Plan B. But having just entered my 7th week of Plan B, I see progress in me. Let the wayward sort out the affair and their waywardness for themselves. What Plan A is designed for is to show what the wayward is missing out on, what they could have had, when or if they emerge from the fog. You have done this and more (although I recognise that BH's should Plan A longer thaen a BW). But ask yourself this... what will continuing Plan A achieve? Other then depleting your LB$? Plan B preserves your LB$, and your sanity, as well as building a better and stronger you after a tough Plan A. So if WW does decide to recover the marriage, you actually have some love and motivation left to do so.
Bill:

I couldn't agree more with Caracol. You have been in agony for weeks on this forum.

It's time for you to write down your expectations, your deep love for your WS and let her go.

Then, it's like you need to also write a plan Bill. The plan you'll employ to help you recover who you are, your confidence, your sanity and your life.

That way, you're set. You're healed if she comes back, and you're healed if she doesn't. Either way, you're better off than where you are now, which is pretty much destroyed.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{BILL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Bill,

I would totally have to agree that you are in need of Plan B. Take it from someone like me who fought against doing it, also, but I now have a much different take.

It's been almost 4 months since my last communication with my wife and I'm so much better than I was before. Have I had some days during that period that were awful? Absolutely! But those days get fewer and fewer as time goes on.

Does Plan B mean that you no longer love your wife? Absolutely NOT. It pretty much means that you've come to the conclusion that you can't change your spoise. You've reached the point where you realize that trying to love them back to you just will not work.

I haven't stopped loving my wife even though I know she's with another. I haven't stopped caring for her. I haven't even stopped thinking that at some point her fog will clear and the woman I fell in love with will be resurrected from the dead.

Right now, I am the only one I can control. I am the only one that I can change. If your relationship is ever to rebound and be reconciled, understand that it's not gonna be something you can control. The ball is in her court and, unfortunately, the fate of your marriage is in her hands. Only if and when she WANTS it will things change.

Believe me, it's been an extremely hard thing to come to grips with but you can do it as have so many before you. Stay encouraged. It does get better.
Originally Posted by Caracal
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
But......I still feel like I've failed......and I know that's NOT true.
Bill, just a reminder that a true Plan A means to leave your expectations at the door.
But if you have no expectations, how can you fail?

...the old adage "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" rings true. You have made every effort to show WW you are committed to recovery. If she fails to commit to recovery, this is not your failure, it is hers. I am really starting to see that waywardness is NOT about the BS, it is all about the wayward. No amount of pleading with the crack addict or gestures to show your commitment to them changing will make any difference until the addict themself recognises the need and commits to change.

Quote
So....looks like it's Plan B time.....what else can I do?

Bill, it is time for Plan B... because YOU deserve to remove yourself from her drama. Despite her lack of contact, you are reacting, planning and desperate to think of ways to win her back. I've been there. Sometimes still am, even in Plan B. But having just entered my 7th week of Plan B, I see progress in me. Let the wayward sort out the affair and their waywardness for themselves. What Plan A is designed for is to show what the wayward is missing out on, what they could have had, when or if they emerge from the fog. You have done this and more (although I recognise that BH's should Plan A longer than a BW). But ask yourself this... what will continuing Plan A achieve? Other then depleting your LB$? Plan B preserves your LB$, and your sanity, as well as building a better and stronger you after a tough Plan A. So if WW does decide to recover the marriage, you actually have some love and motivation left to do so.

Caracal.....I sit here.....emotionally exhausted.....and I know that EVERY one of your words is correct.....ugh.

I have been a fighter my entire life.....If we had time I'd tell you about my trials through life.....and EACH time that I was knocked down I would IMMEDIATELY start to stand back up....nothing was going to knock me down......NOTHING!
But.....THIS TIME......Since July 4th, D-Day.....I've occasionally heard my own inner thoughts.....saying "Do you really want to get up? Or just stay down this time? Is it worth it?"
I have NEVER heard that before from my own mind in all these years!

Caracal.....you are RIGHT!!
I'm borrowing part of your signature line and modifying it for my use:
"Mourn the woman she was. Know the woman she is."
I still don't get it!....my Wife NOW isn't the woman I fell in Love with and Married!!
I just don't get it!
It's Plan B time.
I've seen the letters .... please help me find them again on the forum.
It's time.
Thank You Caracal
ugh

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Bill:

You have been in agony for weeks on this forum.

......your deep love for your WS and let her go.

The plan you'll employ to help you recover who you are, your confidence, your sanity and your life.

That way, you're set. You're healed if she comes back, and you're healed if she doesn't. Either way, you're better off than where you are now, which is pretty much destroyed.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{BILL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Sweetpea.....I know you're right too.....I don't want this......but I can't stop it......can't make her change.
I know you're right....I know.
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Bill,

I would totally have to agree that you are in need of Plan B. Take it from someone like me who fought against doing it, also, but I now have a much different take.

It's been almost 4 months since my last communication with my wife and I'm so much better than I was before. Have I had some days during that period that were awful? Absolutely! But those days get fewer and fewer as time goes on.

It really can't be any worse than the last 2 months, since D-Day....since the selfish silence from my Wife after I exposed her....can it?
PLEASE tell me that it can't get any worse.

Originally Posted by marksaysay
Does Plan B mean that you no longer love your wife? Absolutely NOT. It pretty much means that you've come to the conclusion that you can't change your spouse. You've reached the point where you realize that trying to love them back to you just will not work.

Accepting that idea...is the pain in my chest.....my head knows it's true!.....telling my heart is the problem.....and it hurts.

Originally Posted by marksaysay
I haven't stopped loving my wife.....I haven't stopped caring for her. I haven't even stopped thinking that at some point her fog will clear and the woman I fell in love with will be resurrected from the dead.

Right now, I am the only one I can control. I am the only one that I can change. If your relationship is ever to rebound and be reconciled, understand that it's not gonna be something you can control. The ball is in her court and, unfortunately, the fate of your marriage is in her hands. Only if and when she WANTS it will things change.

Believe me, it's been an extremely hard thing to come to grips with but you can do it as have so many before you. Stay encouraged. It does get better.

I trust your words....I have to!!
"It does get better."
Dr. H is right......worst thing ever.
Thank You Marksaysay....thanks for sharing.
Tonight.....I take control of ME.......right after I stop the tears.....and there has been too many of those this summer.
IT'S TIME FOR ME!!!
Thanks
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Bill,

I would totally have to agree that you are in need of Plan B. Take it from someone like me who fought against doing it, also, but I now have a much different take.

It's been almost 4 months since my last communication with my wife and I'm so much better than I was before. Have I had some days during that period that were awful? Absolutely! But those days get fewer and fewer as time goes on.

It really can't be any worse than the last 2 months, since D-Day....since the selfish silence from my Wife after I exposed her....can it?
PLEASE tell me that it can't get any worse.

Originally Posted by marksaysay
Does Plan B mean that you no longer love your wife? Absolutely NOT. It pretty much means that you've come to the conclusion that you can't change your spouse. You've reached the point where you realize that trying to love them back to you just will not work.

Accepting that idea...is the pain in my chest.....my head knows it's true!.....telling my heart is the problem.....and it hurts.

Originally Posted by marksaysay
I haven't stopped loving my wife.....I haven't stopped caring for her. I haven't even stopped thinking that at some point her fog will clear and the woman I fell in love with will be resurrected from the dead.

Right now, I am the only one I can control. I am the only one that I can change. If your relationship is ever to rebound and be reconciled, understand that it's not gonna be something you can control. The ball is in her court and, unfortunately, the fate of your marriage is in her hands. Only if and when she WANTS it will things change.

Believe me, it's been an extremely hard thing to come to grips with but you can do it as have so many before you. Stay encouraged. It does get better.

I trust your words....I have to!!
"It does get better."
Dr. H is right......worst thing ever.
Thank You Marksaysay....thanks for sharing.
Tonight.....I take control of ME.......right after I stop the tears.....and there has been too many of those this summer.
IT'S TIME FOR ME!!!
Thanks

Thoughts and prayers are with you in this bill. You will get better in plan B if you do it right, not worse.

CV
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I have been a fighter my entire life.....If we had time I'd tell you about my trials through life.....and EACH time that I was knocked down I would IMMEDIATELY start to stand back up....nothing was going to knock me down......NOTHING!
But.....THIS TIME......Since July 4th, D-Day.....I've occasionally heard my own inner thoughts.....saying "Do you really want to get up? Or just stay down this time? Is it worth it?
I have NEVER heard that before from my own mind in all these years!.

Well I wish I could say I NEVER thought, "oops", tried to stand up and stumbled, and fell down again, but I must admit, the adultry thing is the most painful to overcome.

So painful God tells us we don't have to if we don't want to.

I think of it like that scene in Braveheart, when Wallace pulls off the helmet of Robert the Bruce, and knows he is alone. Then is when he feels the arrow in his chest, then is when he becomes weak, when it all turns against him, he feels his own mortality.


So now you have to look to God, and ask him WTF? I am sure you have, and because you are here, you have sound spirtual guidance, and are doing the mechanical things that will promote your healing,

Just like before, when the world/life has handed you chalanges, sticking close to God, and his promises, will pull you through, into an even stronger man than before. Gods plan remember?, His creature, not our own.

Hang in there Bill, you will break through to a better place brother
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
....the adultery thing is the most painful to overcome.

So painful God tells us we don't have to if we don't want to.

I think of it like that scene in Braveheart, when Wallace pulls off the helmet of Robert the Bruce, and knows he is alone. Then is when he feels the arrow in his chest, then is when he becomes weak, when it all turns against him, he feels his own mortality.

One of my last comments to the Wife was this:

"I never expected that the knife that was plunged into my back would have YOUR hand on it!"

God please help me.
Its a rollercoaster Bill, but God is there and you will pull through it my friend. Rest in Him
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/27/11 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Caracal.....I sit here.....emotionally exhausted.....and I know that EVERY one of your words is correct.....ugh.

I have been a fighter my entire life.....If we had time I'd tell you about my trials through life.....and EACH time that I was knocked down I would IMMEDIATELY start to stand back up....nothing was going to knock me down......NOTHING!
But.....THIS TIME......Since July 4th, D-Day.....I've occasionally heard my own inner thoughts.....saying "Do you really want to get up? Or just stay down this time? Is it worth it?
I have NEVER heard that before from my own mind in all these years!

Caracal.....you are RIGHT!!
I'm borrowing part of your signature line and modifying it for my use:
"Mourn the woman she was. Know the woman she is."
I still don't get it!....my Wife NOW isn't the woman I fell in Love with and Married!!
I just don't get it!
It's Plan B time.
I've seen the letters .... please help me find them again on the forum.
It's time.
Thank You Caracal
ugh
Bill, you can do this. Focus. Remember the plans... Plan B is for ME! Follow the plan. It will take some time to shift your focus... all of your focus has been on your WW. But you will be able to do it.

I am assuming you have SAA, so you have Dr Harley's recommended letter from Jon. Here is a link for another (I hope it works, not the best with this IT stuff).
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1642447&page=5

It shouldn't be so hard logistically for you to enter Plan B given you are currently separated as I was. The emotional aspect is another arena, and from what I have read it seems the BH's on here seem to have a much harder time entering Plan B. I wonder if this is about being the KISA, wanting to rescue the WW? But you are still acting the KISA by entering Plan B Bill; leading by example and setting limits on what you will and won't accept in your marriage and life. By fighting for what you believe in, even if it means having to let it go. You are fighting the good fight Bill.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/27/11 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Tonight.....I take control of ME.......right after I stop the tears.....and there has been too many of those this summer.
IT'S TIME FOR ME!!!
Thanks
And here is your mantra Bill. "It's time for me!"

Get your IM, change your email and phone numbers. Make sure WW can not access you if she wants to, and that you will not know (or wait) for her to make an attempt. Make sure your IM has read up on Melody's IM Training under notable posts. Get your ducks in a row. And write the most loving Plan B letter, use it as a map to give your WW directions back to you, back to the light. And then poof, you are gone. DARK. If she follows the Plan B map, your directions, then, and only then, will you stop being dark. And your wife will reach the light.

Post your Plan B letter for the vets to see if you need help.

It is time for YOU.
Posted By: Rouge1 Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 09/28/11 01:06 AM
i will keep you in my thoughts and prayers Bill i dont post much but ive been following yours and a few others threads while dealing with my own problems.

good luck with plan B use the time to heal yourself.
Originally Posted by Caracal
I wonder if this is about being the KISA, wanting to rescue the WW? But you are still acting the KISA by entering Plan B Bill; leading by example and setting limits on what you will and won't accept in your marriage and life. By fighting for what you believe in, even if it means having to let it go. You are fighting the good fight Bill.

It's been a VERY busy work week for me.....THANK GOD!! I needed the blessed opportunity to spend time with those who I can serve (Cancer Diagnostic Imaging) rather than focusing on my own problems.
THANK YOU GOD for the chance to serve those children of yours who are in greater need than myself.....Thank You God.

Ok.....sorry, but what is a KISA?
I've searched the site for the acronym and can't find it and I AM STILL FOGGY once I click on this forum to return.
I feel foolish admitting this.....but truth is truth!
The Plan B letters from Pepperband are good, I am going to cut and paste, and add, until I get one that fits my purpose.

What did I learn this week?
My Wife may abandon our Marriage in order to escape facing the truth of her affair and my exposure to our Friends and her family.
My Daughter may abandon me (hasn't answered email/texts for a week) to escape facing the FACT of her own Mothers affair and the constant reminder of that fact.

I am "assembling" the Plan B letter....I don't like it.....but I'm doing it.
Am I paranoid?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
What did I learn this week?
My Wife may abandon our Marriage in order to escape facing the truth of her affair and my exposure to our Friends and her family.
My Daughter may abandon me (hasn't answered email/texts for a week) to escape facing the FACT of her own Mothers affair and the constant reminder of that fact.

I am "assembling" the Plan B letter....I don't like it.....but I'm doing it.
Am I paranoid?

This breaks my heart Bill. I have been following your thread and have been rooting for you.

I know in my own case, I did not see any change in my WH until I got tough. Maybe Plan B will bring her around. If not, it seems to really help others in their own personal recovery.

I don't know if it's recommended, but maybe you could send a copy of your Plan B letter to your DD also. Then she can see for herself that you have left the door open to WW for when she decides to commit to the M. It would also help DD to understand what you are doing and show her that you are protecting your love for WW.

Otherwise, WW will spin the plan B to try to make you look bad...again.

Stay strong.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/01/11 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Ok.....sorry, but what is a KISA?
Sorry Bill, knight in shining armour!

And I agree with Pokerface about letting your DD in on the Plan B letter. She should know that you are simply closing the door to WW rather then locking it (as WW will likely spin it). I like to think of Plan B as the BS closing the door, but keeping the welcome mat out. Now the WS has to knock to enter, and wait for the BS to invite them back in providing they meet the BS's conditions.
Originally Posted by pokerface
I don't know if it's recommended, but maybe you could send a copy of your Plan B letter to your DD also. Then she can see for herself that you have left the door open to WW for when she decides to commit to the M. It would also help DD to understand what you are doing and show her that you are protecting your love for WW.

Otherwise, WW will spin the plan B to try to make you look bad...again.

Originally Posted by Caracal
And I agree with Pokerface about letting your DD in on the Plan B letter. She should know that you are simply closing the door to WW rather then locking it (as WW will likely spin it).

I think that's an excellent idea!
Thanks to you both for the insight.
I believe that my DD is VERY susceptible to her Moms manipulation....and a copy of the Plan B letter to my DD will bypass what my DD will get from her Mothers "interpretation" of the Plan B letter.
How did it EVER come to this?!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I believe that my DD is VERY susceptible to her Moms manipulation....and a copy of the Plan B letter to my DD will bypass what my DD will get from her Mothers "interpretation" of the Plan B letter.
How did it EVER come to this?!

Bill,

have you ever asked DD why she hid the A for a whole year and didn't tell you?

I don't want to seem mean here, but it seems that she was complicit and kinda supportive of the A through her silence.

CV
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I believe that my DD is VERY susceptible to her Moms manipulation....and a copy of the Plan B letter to my DD will bypass what my DD will get from her Mothers "interpretation" of the Plan B letter.
How did it EVER come to this?!

Bill,

have you ever asked DD why she hid the A for a whole year and didn't tell you?

I don't want to seem mean here, but it seems that she was complicit and kinda supportive of the A through her silence.

CV

I couldn't agree more.....we haven't gone there yet.....but I'd like to.
DD was forced to choose when she discovered the A.....her Mother lied to her too, DD had to choose whether to believe her Mothers lies or tell me.....she chose Mom.......yep, it hurts!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I believe that my DD is VERY susceptible to her Moms manipulation....and a copy of the Plan B letter to my DD will bypass what my DD will get from her Mothers "interpretation" of the Plan B letter.
How did it EVER come to this?!

Bill,

have you ever asked DD why she hid the A for a whole year and didn't tell you?

I don't want to seem mean here, but it seems that she was complicit and kinda supportive of the A through her silence.

CV

I couldn't agree more.....we haven't gone there yet.....but I'd like to.
DD was forced to choose when she discovered the A.....her Mother lied to her too, DD had to chose whether to believe her Mothers lies or tell me.....she chose Mom.......yep, it hurts!

I'm sorry for this, Bill. My heart and prayers are with you.

CV
Does Plan B include my In-Laws?
They are very guarded about what they say to me.....and they don't ask me about my schedule to convey to my Wife. (Just a reminder that the Wife and I live apart)
Do I Plan B them too?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Does Plan B include my In-Laws?
They are very guarded about what they say to me.....and they don't ask me about my schedule to convey to my Wife. (Just a reminder that the Wife and I live apart)
Do I Plan B them too?

Bill,

I plan b'ed my inlaws, but never my wife. Do you have reason other than they seem guarded? If they are triggers for you, or are hurting any attempts at reconciliation, then yes... cut them out.

CV
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/05/11 06:25 AM
I've been wondering about this too Bill. I have sort of just drifted into Plan B'ing mine and they have not initiated contact.

When my b'day passed without contact I took that as a hint that I am no longer part of their lives... sadly even my god daughters I guess.

For me the lack of contact suggests that they are not supportive of me or the marriage, so Plan B should remain in effect. However, CV has a good suggestion... if they are not triggers or hurting reconciliation, maybe I have been too quick to judge in my own hurt. Thing is, I am now so dark in Plan B I haven't a clue if they are supportive of the marriage or the affair, LOL!

I will be following the advice and experiences from others...
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Does Plan B include my In-Laws?
They are very guarded about what they say to me.....and they don't ask me about my schedule to convey to my Wife. (Just a reminder that the Wife and I live apart)
Do I Plan B them too?

Well in my experience, In-laws are ussually the ones that waywards go to for,"Permission", and they are spun a whole different story, than the truth.

If they are against the affair, they are just thrust out of the waywards life, and that seems to be the reason they stay out of it, because they might lose contact with thier baby.

If In-laws are intimidated by your desire to call a spade a spade, and the waywards actions are something they don't want to address, then they are still attached to the wayward as parents that are having a hard time expecting them to grow up, and act as adults. Plan Bing them is not nessesary, unless they are FOR the affair, then I would say sure, they are as messed up as the wayward.

If they have been informed about the affair by you, and have not responded with support for you and the marriage, I would say they were being buffaloed into thinking the wayward had some good reason for it, or are just to thick to realize they are adding to the problem, by being silent.

Make sure they know what the truth is, by letter preferably, so they can read it when they have the guts for it, and you don't get caught up in the emotional trauma of telling them how "bad", their wayward offspring has been. Then if no response, then no need for plan B, just now you know what camp they are in. If they support the affair, then yeah, Plan B them.
Hi Mr BC

sorry to hear its not going so well for your M. Listen to the people here they have so much experience and knowledge.

Your daughter is and will be greatly affected by her mums behaviour. I know I was. I have sort of written about this some time ago and my Mum knows about it, just updated a bit. I have friends who don't understand how devastating an affair is to a whole family. To those who have never been through this its like "it didn't happen to YOU so why are you so touchy about it?"

Like *edit* it didn't happen to me!!! My mums affair happened to me, my brother and my Dad and my grandparents and my auntys and uncles, it happened to ALL of us, perhaps especially because we are all quite close, well especially all the girls in the family. And as far as I can tell comparing my girlfriends and their mums, at that time of a mid teen, I had a pretty close relationship with my mum. She killed that for a year or so.

What did the affair actually DO to me?

Well first of all it HURT that my mum was a *edit*, because that was what I thought of her at the time. I think I actually hated her. I was full of that self rightous 14 to 16 year old girl teen angst. I wanted dad to throw her out, kick her butt and make her go away. I could not imagine mum living with us any more, she was to me no better than a street whore. And I told her so. Lots of times.

You cannot imagine the ANGER I felt. How DARE mum do this to dad, to us, that *edit*. That was my feeling my life then.

There was also a part of pure selfishness that came to the forefront of my emotions, I actually felt that I was ENTITLED to do pretty much what I wanted because I wasn't going to listen to THAT cow any more. The normal teen rebellion was like 300 times plus. I can admit now that you could say I was pretty much a *edit* myself at that time. And I didn't care.

There was virtually no relationship between my Mum and I for some time. If she had left or Dad divorced her I'm not sure if I would have wanted a relationship either. Affairs can harden your heart against forgiving and I think thats more so for the children. Often at that age you see only black and white.

You feel you have to choose between your parents. I could easily have gone the other way and blamed dad for being away so much of my life (hes a soldier). I can see that now days easily.

So you see the anger was out of control because I hurt and because I didn't know what to do or how to make things right, nor how to respond to what my mum did. I sometimes wondered if it was my fault in some way. No one else really knew what to do either except to have Dad divorce her or treat her like crap forever and a day.

I entered this strange stage where I felt my own self worth was nothing. I even went through a time of letting myself be treated less than I or anyone should accept by some crap boyfriends. I was not sure why I felt that way except to say my condifence in anything was pretty well shot.

It was a hard time and I was so disgusted with Mum. I had no idea what the outcome would be except if they split I wasn't going with her. Mum had bought her own ticket to damnation and I wasn't having any.
I also said a lot of things to her and called her a lot of names. Not proud of that now but then I was SO SO angry at her and I wanted to hurt her for doing this to us. I had little, no none, no respect for my Mum for some time.

She just didn't cheat on dad, she cheated on all of us including herself.

My sense of secuirty in my family disappeared. I was cynical and to a degree thats still true. I felt very much that my world was falling apart around me. It has affected me in my own personal life to this day.
When I met my darling husband (Yeah you guessed it, a soldier) I was very very reluctant to enter into a firm relationship. I was extremely hesitant to commit to this man, who even my whole family agreed, adored me and loved me. I hurt him by doing this.
He wanted to marry me and I wouldn't do it because I thought marriage was dangerous and that it was usual for you to get hurt by the person you loved most. I was deeply wounded by Mums affair in my own heart. I just couldn't see myself marrying anyone ever, I was too scared.

I lived with my future husband for about a year in my parents home, and never understood why they let that happen for such a long time. I never understood just how smart my Mum and Dad were. I did adore this man of mine, I gave him my heart, everything but a true and final commitment, because I was frightened, and Mum and Dad led me to the commitment of marriage by example and heaps and heaps of patience.

I watched my mum and dad fight for their marriage and wondered many times why either of them even tried. And it never ocurred to me that I was one of the reasons.

My mum strangely enough gave me the Marriage Builders web site and bought the books on marriage recovery and creating and preparing for a loving marriage and how to affair proof your marriage.

It was like a door opening to me, at last I could understand how and even in some sense why Mum and Dad fought to keep their marriage. And how totally overwhelmed a spouse is when one of them cheats. (Man I'd kill the *edit*.)

And yet as I began to understand the methods of repairing and even preventing affairs in a marriage my fear or most of it drained away. I never saw how much my fear controlled me until then.

I also learnt a lot about forgiveness and remorse. I grew up a whole lot. Well I'm still doing that I guess. When my darling husband asked me again as he did once a month to marry him, actually in a resigned and hopeless manner I have to say, I accepted so fast he didn't know what hit him.

And the affair fallout hasn't gone away. Lots of independent behaviour between us. Working on it. Dr H gave me advice man hes tuff.

There is still, not an anger, but a residual regret, within me that Mums affair stole away that time between her and myself when I needed her and God knows where I would be without my Nan being there. Yes Mum has more than demonstrated her total new commitment to her marriage and our family, even to the extent of allowing my now husband to show me in a safe environment that marriage was indeed safe and I would be ok, even if no guarrantees. Yet still I regret that lost time. So does Mum.

And yet my mum is now one of my hero's. She has shown me how to fight for what you love even when flat on the ground and beaten down by your own actions. How to keep on fighting for the love of the kind of men we have both married because that is hard. How to admit to your own failings and look the world in the eyes with the regret and remorse you have and still move forward and take action to save the love you nearly threw away, all the while knowing that one single 'NO" decision would have avoided all the loss and pain.

The affair just keeps on giving and giving, the presents we don't want, and all of us have to live with that.

So don't anyone tell me it bloody didn't happen to me.

Mr BC your daughter will go through some of this, for her there are no winners no silver linings, she just loses and gets forced to be piggy in the middle and probably can't talk to any neutral person with decent amounts of life experience.

My guess is she doesn't say anything because then she has actively chosen between you and while it may be clear to many that its the right thing to do, its not for her. She's just scared stiff of losing. And I think her mum is not above using her either.

please look after yourself Mr BC



Thats an awesome post Awsdaughter..
Dear awsadughter,

Words alone cannot let you know what YOU have done for me this day.
All I can do is Thank You for sharing your experience through your own pain and your own personal recovery.

I have had to stop repeatedly during THIS POST due to my own tears and my own new UNDERSTANDING of just what my own Daughter might be going through.
Your words have been such a gift to me!
THANK YOU for sharing! Because of YOU I can hopefully help my Daughter.....and maybe myself.
My Wife has put herself on her own.....maybe one day my Wife will understand what she has done...and maybe see those who still Love her, and who is STILL on her side (DD and I).....but NOT as a Crazy Woman!!

THANK YOU AGAIN!!!
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/07/11 06:56 PM
Hey Billy, How ya doin

Tell me you are not sitting in the corner drinking gin by yourself?


Just want you to know I'm, and many other friends are thinking of ya.


If you are sitting by yourself in the corner prepare to get a beating!!!!!@!


Tell me, what are you doing for yourself, so I can remove the glue from my eyeballs and get out and help myself?!
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Hey Billy, How ya doin
Tell me you are not sitting in the corner drinking gin by yourself?
If you are sitting by yourself in the corner prepare to get a beating!!!!!!

The couch is in the MIDDLE of the room for your information!!
And it's been a beotch of a day.....HEAL THE SICK! HEAL THE SICK!!....all day long! I deserve my Gin!
.
.
.
.
.
How'd I do?

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Just want you to know I'm, and many other friends are thinking of ya.
Tell me, what are you doing for yourself, so I can remove the glue from my eyeballs and get out and help myself?!

Thanks so much!!!.......for myself?.....the Sport that I love so well is kicking in with the cooler weather arriving here in the Carolina's over the last few weeks......some BIG events here in the near future, getting ready for those!
The support that I get from my Friends in the sport has been wonderful!
The questions from them about the Wife get fewer and fewer.....They know the truth.....their support for me has been overwhelming....and it helps!!
I keep sending texts to my Daughter.....and I keep getting ignored.....it's her choice.....I believe she's hurt worse than I could understand......awsdaughter's post (just a few posts back) helped me understand just HOW AFFECTED my DD might be.
I'm just going to give my DD some time and some room.

I'm looking for a Church.....getting to Sunday Services regularly.....trying to get right with my Lord.

Some Friends are trying to "fix me up".....I'm not ready for that. How do I tell them to back it down?

Do I still get a beatin ?!?!

Thanks for your motivation and for the Friendship!
This IS the worst......isn't it?
But.....the Sun rises each day.......my Friends keep supporting me......the Plan B letter is coming....a word at a time.
THANKS
Lol well those well intentioned friends just don't get it

This can take years to heal

But it's great that you have support, and that will help with the healing process

Be good to yourself bill, you will not regret it in the long run
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
[Some Friends are trying to "fix me up".....I'm not read for that. How do I tell them to back it down?


Ive had struggles with this one. If you say 'Im not ready' they take you for being coy and think you need a push.

People have only really listened when I have said firmly that I will NOT date while I am still married. If I was truly ready I would have filed for a D (though I have done his since for legal reasons, my friends get it now). If I take my time to heal, I can have a good time with a new bf instead of using him as a shoulder to cry on.

I also say that I would never date someone else who was hedging on whether or not to stay married - so I dont want someone who thinks it ok for ANYONE - or for me to do it.

If they get worried about you, tell them yes, you are giving your ww a window of opportunity so you have no regrets, but you wont wait for her forever.

They can fix you up when and if you say they can further on.

Plus its nice to know you have options!
Yeah indie, your right of course, but his friends are out to fix it, and they probably don't talk much about feelings

Just know when to shut them down bill, so you don't have to explain crap to them, really, because they are not in your skin

The western culture of men do not talk about feelings much, and I find that very disturbing, but what bill will. Be going through, will nmot end with gaining another woman will not fix, and his yearning for relationship will have to come back in it's own time, and for the right reasons
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/12/11 12:59 PM
Well Bill sorry so long b4 response
been wallowing a bit
Spending lots of time w/my kids, just trying to be there
Glad, so glad you are getting out and enjoying some parts of life

For me, finally coming to the realization that I have been a giant pus*y, pushover, enabeler, passive, stinkin doormat of a man, if you would call me a man. In the desire to be the best husband one could ever want, I have been willing to let her have everything. She now has lawyers involved, and I am still being the sweetheart she dated. Now that the first meeting looms(2 attys and us 2) she is actually hugging me, and it feels like she is actually missing me..
next wk we have the meeting and then her lover flys in and they go rendezvous....I think its time to re-expose, I have nothing to lose, and I think its time I grow a pair. We will see if I have the guts to go through w/it I really have nothing at this time to lose.

As far as the 2 x 4, I will hold off!, sounds like you are moving in the right direction.

Your daughter will come around when she does be there.

As far as the friends trying to hook you up..... yeah I have that problem too. Thanks but I need time, Still want things to work out with sh*t for brains right now. That seems to work for me.

As far as the gin is concerned Way Way too much of that for me right now, Saturday morning was my awakening that I was using it as antidepressant # 2. Not a good plan, so I took the pledge.

My WW said the other day "Life sucks" and I looked her in the eye and said, It absolutely does not" Every day is a good day some are just better than others.

Keep the faith, Find that church!

Love Morterman's closing line.
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you need to change seats
Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Spending lots of time w/my kids, just trying to be there...

hurray

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
As far as the 2 x 4, I will hold off!, sounds like you are moving in the right direction.


I escaped a beating!!! pray Thank You Lord!!

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
For me, finally coming to the realization that I have been a giant pus*y, pushover, enabeler, passive, stinkin doormat of a man, if you would call me a man. In the desire to be the best husband one could ever want, I have been willing to let her have everything.
....and I think its time I grow a pair. We will see if I have the guts to go through w/it I really have nothing at this time to lose.

OK......now it's MY TURN with the 2x4!
Go ahead......make the realization of YOUR issues and enabling and your part in not meeting her E.N.'s.....and then STOP beating yourself up!
Or......I'll put a beating on you!
My Best Pal Tom made the following comment to me this last week:

"I have watched you beat yourself up for three months....you have fully identified and accepted your deficiencies in your Marriage ..... now, it's time to FORGIVE YOURSELF!"

That hit me like a fist......and Tom was right.

Here's my message to you TTFG: It's time to FORGIVE YOURSELF!

You are working the MB Plan for you and your WW.....and being the Dad your kids need. BRAVO!!.....now STOP beating yourself up! Offer forgiveness to that man you see in the mirror.


Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Your daughter will come around when she does be there.

Maybe she will.....I hope so. I'm just a bit disappointed in her for ignoring me.

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
As far as the friends trying to hook you up..... yeah I have that problem too. Thanks but I need time, Still want things to work out with sh*t for brains right now.

How's this for a Hypocrite: My WW won't even communicate with me because she's mad at me for exposing HER AFFAIR to her Family and our Friends!
How's that for blame-shifting?
At least your WW talks to you!
Maybe I AM better off than you?!?!

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
As far as the gin is concerned Way Way too much of that for me right now, Saturday morning was my awakening that I was using it as antidepressant # 2.

I understand.....I was drinking too much...I've cut back.
I haven't had to take an anti-anxiety pill in over a week!
The pills I was given for sleep....I'm breaking them in HALF!....and getting good rest!!! hurray

Originally Posted by tryingtofeelgood
Keep the faith, Find that church!
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you need to change seats

Every day......I pray for my WW and DD......open their eyes to your Will Lord.......open their hearts to your Love Lord.....Lord wrap your arms around them so they can feel your Love and your guidance.
Only God can change them.
I have to leave them in His care.
TTFG.....YOU are a MB Warrior!!!......and I am proud of you!
Posted By: TTFG Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/14/11 12:05 AM
I can't remember what thread I read this prayer:
Lord, take her, break her, save her.

Thank you Bill for your kind words.

Hope yor day was a productive one!
I think a more proper response is not that God will change them, but they will change if they go to God.

Make sense?
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I think a more proper response is not that God will change them, but they will change if they go to God.

Make sense?

SURE IT DOES!!
God will do what is needed to change their circumstances to suit HIS purpose.
And when they are in the furnace....they'll change!
What will we (I) do in the meantime?
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/14/11 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I think a more proper response is not that God will change them, but they will change if they go to God.

Make sense?

SURE IT DOES!!
God will do what is needed to change their circumstances to suit HIS purpose.
And when they are in the furnace....they'll change!
What will we (I) do in the meantime?
Plan B Bill, we'll follow the MB plans.
Plan B Bill, we'll follow the MB plans.

And part of that is being/becoming the best BC possible! You should not have a great deal of trouble with this - you seem to have the grit and drive necessary, but just keep that thought in the forefront of your actions.

Not only do you not have direct contact with her, but your actions with others must be conducted as if she is watching. No "mourning", no "agonizing", no "regrets" - EVER!

This will be toughest with the DD, but it's important that you maintain the front of disinterest and detachment. (The only exceptions are HERE, and with your spiritual advisor.)
Originally Posted by Caracal
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
What will we (I) do in the meantime?

Plan B Bill, we'll follow the MB plans.

NOTHING else works......does it?
So....looks like I'm now a "Plan B'er" faint

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
And part of that is being/becoming the best BC possible! You should not have a great deal of trouble with this - you seem to have the grit and drive necessary, but just keep that thought in the forefront of your actions.

Sorry......what's a "BC"?
"Grit and drive".......Worse has been said of me by others!!
I'm terribly weak when it comes to the WW.....that vulnerability is tough to face when it's one sided and NOT returned from her.
While I'm better on a daily basis.....the constant thinking about this situation is still DIFFICULT!.....but I am down to thinking about it only 50% of the day, rather than 80%.
Day by Day!!!

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Not only do you not have direct contact with her, but your actions with others must be conducted as if she is watching. No "mourning", no "agonizing", no "regrets" - EVER!
This will be toughest with the DD, but it's important that you maintain the front of disinterest and detachment. (The only exceptions are HERE, and with your spiritual advisor.)

I agree.....and accept that......but it's SO DIFFICULT!
I have four friends (two married couples) who I can be 100% honest with, only THEY see my anguish, my pain, my wounds.
Everyone else who might have contact with my WW get's the STIFF UPPER LIP version.
And you know what.......the Moon was beautiful when I left for work early this morning.....the Sun came up today.....I made a difference in my Patients lives today......and I still Love my Wife.
And I Love the MB'ers here who support me and our Missions!!!
Thank You!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Sorry......what's a "BC"?
"Grit and drive".......Worse has been said of me by others!!
I'm terribly weak when it comes to the WW.....that vulnerability is tough to face when it's one sided and NOT returned from her.
While I'm better on a daily basis.....the constant thinking about this situation is still DIFFICULT!.....but I am down to thinking about it only 50% of the day, rather than 80%.
Day by Day!!!

a Bill Carolina is a BC.

Don't feel bad, most men who are in love with thier wives have that terrible weakness for them. We are strong as the proverbial OX but when it comes to the little woman, all bets are off.

Glad to hear your thinking about it is lessening BC
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Sorry......what's a "BC"?

a Bill Carolina is a BC.

Can you tell that I over-analyze things? crazy
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Sorry......what's a "BC"?
a Bill Carolina is a BC.
Can you tell that I over-analyze things? crazy
rotflmao
Welcome to my world
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Sorry......what's a "BC"?
a Bill Carolina is a BC.
Can you tell that I over-analyze things? crazy
rotflmao
Welcome to my world

Stop YOUR world....I want to get off!!

CP, you DIDN'T have to laugh at me!.........yes you did!! LOL
I overanalyze things too. It's nice sometimes, but most of the time it's a curse. I don't go out to see movies in theaters anymore because of it.

You're not alone. stickout
BC, you mention that instituting a serious Plan B is difficult. Yeah, and........?

Plan B gives you space and isolation to keep you "whole" as your WW spirals into whatever morass she's headed into. As difficult as it may be to establish/maintain, dealing with the injuries and drama to which she'd otherwise subject you would be immeasurably worse.
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
BC, you mention that instituting a serious Plan B is difficult. Yeah, and........?

Plan B gives you space and isolation to keep you "whole" as your WW spirals into whatever morass she's headed into. As difficult as it may be to establish/maintain, dealing with the injuries and drama to which she'd otherwise subject you would be immeasurably worse.

Amen
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
.....as your WW spirals into whatever morass she's headed into.

And there's not a thing I can do about it.....except save myself.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
.....as your WW spirals into whatever morass she's headed into.

And there's not a thing I can do about it.....except save myself.


Not to be minimized, this is all you can do.

Listen, I did not have MB when I first left my WW way back in 1987, because she was an alcohlic, but I did have the conviction that it was the right thing to do. After two years, my relationship with another woman, (which was wrong and turned out to be a disaster), I returned to the relationship, without specifing AA as part of its requirements, because her drinking problem and head problems were driven underground. I was convinced that "God" would fix it all, and I did not know,that I was slated to be the one who would be the sacrifice.

Actions speak louder than words, and the talk in the world and wringing of your hands in prayer will not change someone who is stubbornly acting like a fool. the best thing is to let them be alone with God, and let them suffer the consequences, even if they find someone, who will support them in thier folly.

But I was convinced that God would do what I could not do, or better stated,would not do, to bring about the change that was needed, in practical application of lifes challanges in living. I thought that forgiveness was the key, and staying strong in faith, and pulling all the wieght. This was wrong of me to do, because it enabled her to stay in a fantasy world, as I bore the cross in the real one. Poor me, what a martyr, what a bunch of crap! In the end, all of the unrealistic expectations she had, did us in, and then her also.

For ten years I waited for her to see the light, that she was human, and we all had problems we had to deal with, and she had no special right that allowed her special priveledges. Over worked, and that was my problem, needed a special diet because I was a diabetic, and that was my problem. Living below standards and throwing myself on the mercy of others, that was my problem. It was all my problem, and all it would have taken, is for her to accept some personal accoutability, and live in reality, instead of wishing and hoping, for some miracle, of an easy life of leasure.

She found that life of leasure, again in drugs and escapism, because she would not accept that she was just as human as everybody else, and that is what took her down eventually. It was a fantasy, that she had been through so much as a child, that somehow she deserved something in return, some kinda revenge, some get even, some "I'll show you", that was the dissapointment of her unrealistic expectations.

Me giving into that mindset, and not drawing the line from the beggining, is what led her down, enabled her, and ruined both our lives. All because I wanted to let someone off the hook. See I thought I might be special too at first, but I was a fool for thinking that, because God does not change the world to what we think, He wants to change how we think to understand the world as it is.

Again all this happened without the proper support, and if I had only found MB, and was wise enough to implement it, in those years I first left her, I would not be having this story to tell. I would have stuck with my ideal of getting a divorce, and taking my kids, from a raging messed up alcoholic. I would have had support from the wonderful people here emotionally. I would have grieved the loss of the relationship properly and stayed on a course that would have supported my children well, and not wasted my talents, or the last 20+ years, and my health either.

If I had reconciled it would have been on realistic terms, and not in just wishing and hoping for change, it would have been done, or there would be no reconciliation.

Stand your ground Bill, it is what you have, above everything else and let this place help you recover your marriage sure, but you most of all.
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 10/18/11 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
And there's not a thing I can do about it.....except save myself.
And what a fine mission that is Bill. Maybe not the mission of choice, but great nonetheless.

Have you given WW the PBL?
Dear Wife, Are you there?....Do you read this thread?

Daughter?......are you there?

Join the discussion.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Dear Wife, Are you there?....Do you read this thread?

Daughter?......are you there?

Join the discussion.


What's going on, bill?
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 11/02/11 09:07 PM
Whoah, you can't leave us with a cliffhanger like that!

I hope all is ok for you... And hope you can keep posting for support.
Originally Posted by marksaysay
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Dear Wife, Are you there?....Do you read this thread?

Daughter?......are you there?

Join the discussion.


What's going on, bill?

Let's just wait and see.....it's not a drama......it's an invitation.
My Dear Ladies.......are you there?

I Love You.
Bill:

I'm almost hesitant to ask you to post, as I'm hoping for the best, but fearing your silence means your dear ladies haven't responded. ...

Post if you can ...
Dear Mr BC

I pray that Christmas will soften the heart of your daughter amd perhaps God willing your wife.

My husband is home from the war, for now, and I am filled with the wealth of His blessings. I KNOW prayer works so never give in and never give up, you may not get the answer you want but you get an answer.

So, may you be poor in misfortune, rich in blessings,
slow to make enemies, quick to make friends.
And may you know nothing but happiness.

Happy Christmas Mr BC and may your New Year bring you happiness
Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 12/26/11 09:59 PM
Bill, what is going on? Was that your WW posting or a troll?
Posted By: nesre Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 12/26/11 10:01 PM
I saw it too. Had a link to another poster.

nESRE
Yup saw the same thing.
Caracal, nESRE, New_Path

if you meant my post, then no I am not his WW or troll. I had posted to Mr BC some little while ago because I was in the same positon of his daughter stuck right in the middle between my parents while Mum was in an affair.
Know how confusing that can be but I think his daughter will eventually come around.
I just wanted to wish him a better New Year than the one he had, nothing more.
Originally Posted by awsdaughter
Caracal, nESRE, New_Path

if you meant my post, then no I am not his WW or troll. I had posted to Mr BC some little while ago because I was in the same positon of his daughter stuck right in the middle between my parents while Mum was in an affair.
Know how confusing that can be but I think his daughter will eventually come around.
I just wanted to wish him a better New Year than the one he had, nothing more.
No, AW, there was a questionable post that was put up earlier on Bill's thread and then was immediately deleted by the poster. It was done so quickly that you may not have seen it.
Bill,
I've been reading your story. What is happening with you? You haven't posted since Dec. 26th!
CT
Posted By: RMX Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 02/07/12 08:21 PM
I'd like to know as well!
Well Gang....here we are some many months later.

My WW never....and I mean NEVER accepted responsibility for her actions.

I will file for divorce next month.

My Daughter continues to try to deal with her Mother....DD says she tries to talk with her Mother regarding her Mothers cheating and the lies her Mother told her and how DD was used to perpetuate the affair.
Each attempt by DD to talk to her Mother gets turned into an argument.
DD is VERY angry with her Mother.
I'm back into health.....put back on some of the the 35 pounds I lost.
I got some counseling earlier this year.....put all my energy into becoming emotionally stable again.
Life DOES go on.
It has been a VERY long year.
I did everything I could.....but my WW is just going to have to find it out for herself. It is NO LONGER my concern.
I have a new Love interest in my life.....and I am very happy with her.
The hurt still hurts.....the sense of blind trust is gone.
But....Life DOES go on....each sunrise is still beautiful ..... each sunset a blessing.
Thank You to everyone here for your help during the last year....I couldn't have made it without you.
Dr. Harley's way is still the best way!
Bill, I've wondered about you. Please understand that not every marriage can be saved. Sometimes the happy ending is your peace of mind without your wife. Be well, Bill. smile
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Well Gang....here we are some many months later.

My WW never....and I mean NEVER accepted responsibility for her actions.

I will file for divorce next month.

My Daughter continues to try to deal with her Mother....DD says she tries to talk with her Mother regarding her Mothers cheating and the lies her Mother told her and how DD was used to perpetuate the affair.
Each attempt by DD to talk to her Mother gets turned into an argument.
DD is VERY angry with her Mother.
I'm back into health.....put back on some of the the 35 pounds I lost.
I got some counseling earlier this year.....put all my energy into becoming emotionally stable again.
Life DOES go on.
It has been a VERY long year.
I did everything I could.....but my WW is just going to have to find it out for herself. It is NO LONGER my concern.
I have a new Love interest in my life.....and I am very happy with her.
The hurt still hurts.....the sense of blind trust is gone.
But....Life DOES go on....each sunrise is still beautiful ..... each sunset a blessing.
Thank You to everyone here for your help during the last year....I couldn't have made it without you.
Dr. Harley's way is still the best way!
You have a new love interest in your life and you're still married.

So that makes what your wife did okay. There can't be one law for her and a different one for you.
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I have a new Love interest in my life.....and I am very happy with her.

How is she going to protect you? If her boundaries are loose enough to date a man that is still married, then how will she protect you?

It has been a long, rough year for you ... how is finding a new woman so quickly ... one that dates a still married man going to protect you?

Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I have a new Love interest in my life.....and I am very happy with her.
The hurt still hurts.....the sense of blind trust is gone.
But....Life DOES go on....each sunrise is still beautiful ..... each sunset a blessing.
Thank You to everyone here for your help during the last year....I couldn't have made it without you.
Dr. Harley's way is still the best way!

This is an oxymoron comment ... "I couldn't have made it without you." Because my fog is thick, and I am blinded by my PEA chemicals ... I have recovered myself into my own adulterous affair.

Dr. Harley's way is still the best way! Translation: I am talking out my butt and my mouth because I am so HIGH on my "New LOVE" chemicals I don't realize how much waywardness is running through my veins.

WOW ... my wife and I sure do share the love to cheat ... Bill, "WTF?"
Message to Sugarcane and Godgivemestrength:

kiss

Go live your own life....stay out of mine.

My message was to those who helped me this last year.....not an invitation to you to take pot-shots at me.
Enjoy your own lives.
Some woman whose name I can't remember had a thread in Divorced (I think) and said that she was your ex, and you were never married. She posted to your thread and then pulled the post. You were asked to explain what was going on and you disappeared until today.

What IS going on?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Message to Sugarcane and Godgivemestrength:

kiss

Go live your own life....stay out of mine.
Bill, you came of your own volition and posted here. This is a forum for people who WANT others to help with their lives. If you want people to stay out of your life, don't post on a public forum asking for advice!

What did you come here for? Did you come here for a haircut?
Basically another wayward who has been gaslighting the forum for some sick and twisted reason.

One thing we always know about waywards. They lie!
Hmmm...I think you're being pretty harsh, GodGivesMeStrength.

What Bill needs to understand is that he is a married man (and I think he knows this) who has been through a lot(I think he knows this) who is building a future with a woman who knows he is married. (I think he knows this.)

Bill, Dr. H has made it clear that it is shaky at best to enter into another relationship while you are still married. Be very careful about trying to build any romantic relationships right now. You are still married. I still hope for the best for you.

Originally Posted by Godgivmestrength
Basically another wayward who has been gaslighting the forum for some sick and twisted reason.

One thing we always know about waywards. They lie!
Please quote the post that told you he is wayward. .... I'll wait...
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Message to Sugarcane and Godgivemestrength:

kiss

Go live your own life....stay out of mine.

My message was to those who helped me this last year.....not an invitation to you to take pot-shots at me.
Enjoy your own lives.
if you post on a forum dedicated to helping people with the Marriage Builders programme, you can expect to be told that your own adultery is wrong.

If you don't want people to "take pot-shots" at you, don't post about your adultery on a forum that is anti-adultery and dedicated to marriage.

YOU go live your own life and don't post stories like yours on an anti-adultery forum and then tell people to stay out of your life.
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Godgivmestrength
Basically another wayward who has been gaslighting the forum for some sick and twisted reason.

One thing we always know about waywards. They lie!
Please quote the post that told you he is wayward. .... I'll wait...

He admitted it by his own words ... I have a new love interest. Hence he is committing his own adultery, hence he told me to get out of his life, hence he is wayward ... he spent months on here destroyed by his wife's adultery, and yet he is going out and committing his own.

By his sweet mouth kiss to Sugar and I ... clearly doesn't feel he is doing anything wrong ... hum???? Sound like other waywards on here who say they "emotionally divorced their spouse" so it was okay to jump into a new relationship and commit adultery ... Marital do I really need a quote????
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Hmmm...I think you're being pretty harsh, GodGivesMeStrength.

What Bill needs to understand is that he is a married man (and I think he knows this) who has been through a lot(I think he knows this) who is building a future with a woman who knows he is married. (I think he knows this.)

Bill, Dr. H has made it clear that it is shaky at best to enter into another relationship while you are still married. Be very careful about trying to build any romantic relationships right now. You are still married. I still hope for the best for you.
Is "still married" not "wayward", bliss? He hasn't even filed for divorce yet.
Poster eastbeachgirl
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Bill, Dr. H has made it clear that it is shaky at best to enter into another relationship while you are still married. Be very careful about trying to build any romantic relationships right now. You are still married. I still hope for the best for you.

When has this forum or Dr. Harley EVER given his consent to date while still married? Dr. Harley goes to great lengths to let people know this is one of the worst things ever. It is thoughtless and deceptive to have an affair and to date while married. To date while married may not have the same level of lies as an affair, but it still has its own share of lies and deceit.

One needs time ... lots and lots of time to get honest with themselves as to why their spouse divorced them. The greatest lie of all is to make a vow and then tell yourself it is okay to break it just because your spouse already broke it.

When has this forum ever been okay with breaking the vow of marriage? Affair or dating while married ... still thoughtless and still deceitful.
I can't find her NP ... how are you BTW?
I remember eastbeachgirl because I posted to her and she told me she was not legally married to Bill:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=164130&Number=2528522#Post2528522
Posted By: Chipep Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/06/12 01:56 AM
**edit**
Originally Posted by Godgivmestrength
When has this forum or Dr. Harley EVER given his consent to date while still married? Dr. Harley goes to great lengths to let people know this is one of the worst things ever. It is thoughtless and deceptive to have an affair and to date while married. To date while married may not have the same level of lies as an affair, but it still has its own share of lies and deceit.

You are absolutely right. Dr Harley has never defended dating while married, which IS infidelity.

If that practice was going to be defended it should have been pointed out that Bill is not actually married.

The bottom line is that dating while married *IS* infidelity! PERIOD! That is the truth, and not an opinion.
Originally Posted by Chipep
**edit**
Well, there's no need to post on an anti-adultery forum at all if you believe there is nothing wrong in dating when you haven't even filed for divorce.

**edit**
Originally Posted by Chipep
**edit**

Someone is a "dog" if they point out that dating while married is infidelity? FOR REAL? crazy I honestly don't think one has to be a "dog" to know right from wrong.

woof! laugh
If Eastbeachgirl is for real and Bill is this man, then this entire thread is sick...it is full of deceit, manipulation, a complete fantasy that is twisted and delusional.

***EDIT*** Something is not adding up here ... why is EBG's post completely deleted from his thread?

Something creepy is going on ... hum?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
I will file for divorce next month.

With what marriage? Were you legally married?
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I remember eastbeachgirl because I posted to her and she told me she was not legally married to Bill:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=164130&Number=2528522#Post2528522
Good grief.

That story is so very different from the one he posted.

The differences in their stories make me wonder.
Separating the variables, here....

Bill, I'm sorry you have had to make this decision to terminate the marriage, but it seems you know what you're doing it that matter. Try to assist your DSD through the trauma she will be suffering, as supposedly in her the life-model that all parents should attempt to be has thrown it away for her WW lifestyle.

As for the other issue, your actions are your responsibility, and your business. Please understand that to the folks here, until you ARE NOT married, you ARE married. Coming back after all the elapsed time, announcing that you intend to pursue personal emotional attachments with a woman other than your current spouse, is no less likely to raise a furor than walking into a PETA convention and loudly offering a free veal dinner to all in attendance.

So my questions to you are: Did you not know that? (If not, you are not as well-versed in the MB principles as you should be.) If you did anticipate the reaction, why do it?

(Just as an aside, that DSD who needs support and reassurance to process her mother's whorish lifestyle, is now just a little less likely to get what she needs from her step-father.)

But, I can without fear wish you a speedy and manageable dissolution.

And as for you, Chippie: It's been six months. It should have been longer.
Go back and read the postings by EBG....."some" of it is true. She left out that she had been carrying on an affair for over a year, 2010 into 2011, with a man much older than her own father......AND that she had an affair with this same guy when she was married to her first husband.....she's a serial cheater.
In South Carolina were are seen as "common law Married" and the divorce has to be adjudicated by the courts.
My bottom line is that I never cheated on my wife when we were together!!!
EBG only told you part of "Her" truth.
There was much much more that she didn't tell you.
I'm done......good luck to all!!
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
My bottom line is that I never cheated on my wife when we were together!!!
So it's okay for each of us to have our individual "bottom line" when it comes to infidelity? Your relationship began after you separated, so in your book that is not infidelity.

Using individual and shifting definitions of infidelity is what waywards do. To them, their affairs are not wrong because the marriage was dead before the new relationship began. No doubt that is what your wife told you.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Chipep
**edit**

Someone is a "dog" if they point out that dating while married is infidelity? FOR REAL? crazy I honestly don't think one has to be a "dog" to know right from wrong.

woof! laugh

Make that a double woof and a bow wow thrown in for good measure
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Go back and read the postings by EBG....."some" of it is true. She left out that she had been carrying on an affair for over a year, 2010 into 2011,

Well, you weren't married so i'ts not an affair, But let's say some agree with you that you are "common law married," then how is your affair right and hers wrong? Isn't that a double standard?
Originally Posted by BillCarolina
Go back and read the postings by EBG....."some" of it is true. She left out that she had been carrying on an affair for over a year, 2010 into 2011, with a man much older than her own father......AND that she had an affair with this same guy when she was married to her first husband.....she's a serial cheater.
In South Carolina were are seen as "common law Married" and the divorce has to be adjudicated by the courts.
My bottom line is that I never cheated on my wife when we were together!!!
EBG only told you part of "Her" truth.
There was much much more that she didn't tell you.
I'm done......good luck to all!!
Wait a minute - is this a GCW post? Do we need to nominate it for an award?
Do I have some more competition?? sigh
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Do I have some more competition?? sigh
Nope, you're in a league all your own. laugh
Posted By: reading Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/06/12 04:15 AM
A renter.

Posted By: Caracal Re: I said "Goodbye" to my Wife today....... - 08/06/12 09:43 AM
Bill, I was glad to see you back posting, I had been wanting an update on how things were going for you. I have to admit, I have mixed feelings about your recent posts.

There is something very hit and run going on. Being challenged on your way of thinking is hard. It is easier to ignore and run, ending with a goodbye cruel world post because you have heard something you didn't want to.

But that is how waywards act. I say this to encourage you to consider your actions. So that you can have a happy, healthy MB relationship in the future. So you don't wind up back on the boards in the same sitch.

I've gotten something out of your update. I'm going to keep reading and posting on MB, because it truly does keep me walking the walk.
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