POJA is not some magic pixy dust that makes everything moral or healthy. You can POJA the destruction of your marriage.

POJAing infidelity does not make infidelity moral or healthy. This is a major blow to your marriage, even if the two of you enjoyed it.

I'm regretting it so much.

I love my husband and I don't want to lose him or ruin my marriage. I feel horrible. Please help.

Start with some radical honesty...tell your husband what you said here....you regret it and you feel horrible about it. And then vow to yourself and him and God you will never. repeat that.

Start with some radical honesty...tell your husband what you said here....you regret it and you feel horrible about it. And then vow to yourself and him and God you will never. repeat that.

My H and I POJA'd a threesome. We went out this weekend and picked up another guy (well, I picked up another guy) and we brought him back to our place. This was a fantasy of both of ours for quite some time.
?

Back up that vow with some Extraordinary Precautions (EPs). You need to ensure that this will never happen again. Both of you need to ensure that.

Get "Surviving an Affair." Read it.

The purpose of the POJA is to make your marriage better, not WORSE. IT is not intended to faciliate destructive, disgusting marriage wrecking behavior. If you want to find out how destructive adultery is, and particularly swinging, just read about the wrecked lives in this forum and in the radio archives. There have been many radio segments over the years about what a DISASTER swinging is.

Is the next step for your H to commit adultery too? Does he get to pick up a woman to even the score?

My H and I POJA'd a threesome. We went out this weekend and picked up another guy (well, I picked up another guy) and we brought him back to our place. This was a fantasy of both of ours for quite some time.

Now, I feel guilty, even though my H was there and enjoyed himself. Should I feel guilty?

So it was his idea?

How did you honestly feel about that beforehand?

I get the impression that his 'no big deal' reaction to this is making you feel a bit uneasy. Did you want him to feel jealous?

Is this behaviour of his new or has be always been into the idea of sharing you out like that?

Personally, it worries me. My h used to be very protective of me and would go mad if men even spoke to me inappropriately. When he was wayward though, he stopped this, even made very odd jokes about me having sex with his friends!

I just think its a disrespectful attitude. THATS what bothers you. Because you 'couldnt handle' seeing him with someone else. However he has no problem seing you do it. It would bug me too.

While it wasnt dishonest, letting someone else meet your needs IS the fast track to an affair. In this case, admiration? SF?

First thing - if you and your H agreed to it, then by definition it's not infidelity / cheating. It's extra-marital sex.

Secondly, are you sure that the emotion you're experiencing is guilt? Or is it regret?

I think I thought that he wouldn't actually go through with it.

This was an affair?

POJA requires that you don't do something unless you both ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREE to do it. I'm getting the impression here that engaging in extra-marital sex was not something you were very enthusiastic about, and you had to be "convinced" by your H. Is that correct?

Fact is, you were unfaithful.

Adultery-Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse

Yes, admiration for sure.

Just an FYI, so there will be no more question about this,
So this was most definitely adultery.

I would suspect your H is into internet porn.

What she has described here is adultery, plain and simple - it's not even up for debate:

And yes, she was unfaithful:

un�faith�ful   /ʌnˈfeɪθfəl/ Show Spelled
[uhn-feyth-fuhl] Show IPA

�adjective
1.not faithful; false to duty, obligation, or promises; faithless; disloyal.
2.not sexually faithful to a spouse or lover.
3.not accurate or complete; inexact: an unfaithful translation

Infidelity harms a marriage, adultery harms a marriage, and THIS has harmed THIS marriage.

No she wasn't. Unfaithfulness requires practicing some level of dishonesty to get one's needs met outside of one's M, and there was no such dishonesty here.

Marriage is a closed contract. When you open it....the contract has been broken. There are some people who argue that the contract is about "honesty" rather than "exclusivity", but opening a marriage invariable dilutes it's value as a covenant and opens it to RISK. Promiscuity waters down honor and marriage vows until they mean NOTHING.

I truly believe that there is a sanctity in the exclusive (emotional AND sexual) union of TWO people that provides the strongest bond, the most opportunity for depth and growth, the most stable environment for children, families and communities. It weakens us as a society when marriage models are flawed or fail.

If you "want it all"....don't get married or have children. I could care less if people want a hundred sex partners....but don't marry....and don't bring innocent children into the nightmare you're creating for yourself and bring them into the risk and drama that open marriage INVITES into your life.

Every time you add another person, another couple, fuzzy boundaries and wishful thinking....you increase RISK exponentially.

You think marriage with two people is hard??? Lord in Heaven....just start adding sex partners if you want a crash course for self destruct, shame and pain.

Can it be done successfully? Some say yes....but *I* don't believe it...I say....it's just another fantasy like the rest of affairs. I was hippie, and we grocked like the rest of the "Strangers in a Strange Land". What a delusion. This stuff was tried and failed. The only thing that differentiates swinging from affairs is the *honesty*.....and most of the time....that breaks down anyway!! It starts out honest until real feelings get in the way.....and they always get in the way, because we're WIRED that way.

But even if it didn't. Let's say two people agree to share their bodies but not their emotions and do it all above board....this is not a recipe for marriage...it's a recipe for tragedy, shame, denial and divorce. The essential problem with swinging is that it takes energy away from the primary relationship with spouse, family and children. It waters it down. It strains it. It undermines the intimacy.

It's next to impossible to share something as intimate as sex, and not develope affair-style biochemistry that acts on the marriage like ANY OTHER AFFAIR. You're kidding yourself if you think your biochemistry won't betray you.

I've spoken to many many people in this situation....and sadly....the results are as predictable as any other kind of affair. Somebody wants it....somebody gets talked into it. There is an agreement. It goes okay for a while....sometimes even a good long while. Then someone crosses the line....they start to hide their emotional involvement with one of their sex partners, or they get that "in love" biochemistry and there's no difference at all in the script....bla bla bla.

I honestly can't understand why people who want an open marriage, get married at all. Polyamory, open marriages, swinging....they are finally nothing but a selfish illusion that eventually blows up and creates shame and the destruction of families....JUST LIKE ANY OTHER kind of infidelity.

I've done extensive research on this subject. I have found absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that these models are sustainable long enough to raise children. In fact, the only research available says quite the opposite. The only place you get a real rosy picture of this lifestyle....is on the sites that promote it! Duh

It's a trap, a Brigadoon,....an insidious cancer like any other adultery that promises Utopia and delivers drama and heartbreak. There are probably a few die hard swingers who follow through....but for the majority of us....don't try this at home!! There are people who try to jump the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle....but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I agree with people who say that humans are probably not naturally monogamous. No siree....it takes strength of character to avoid temptation. It takes pain and forgiveness to move past the pitfalls and failures. But to me, that's precisely what makes marriage so special and unique...that we can rise above our primal roots and make a commitment that transcends even nature. That we care enough about one person to be MORE than our sexual yearnings for change. How cool is that?

However, the reasons WHY the M is harmed are different. Affairs involve some level of dishonesty on the part of one spouse, in order to get their needs met outside of the M. Was any of that involved here?

What has happened here is that in the M, one spouse has apparently had a need met by the other, at the expense of the other.

I think that something a bit more than using the usual MB A-busting techniques needs to be involved here. I would start by trying to find out why her H was so enthusiastic, before AND after, about indulging in the threesome.

Has he asked for any more, BTW?

Adultery (aka "being unfaithful") does not require dishonesty. Dr. Harley says so on his radio show.

I disagree - you are misapplying the meaning of "faithful".

I think you're right about digging for the reasons beneath and putting the focus on him. He is probably the more dishonest one and I would hesitate to call him a BS.

I somehow had the sense to ignore threesomes offered to me, and after reading here on MB I am more glad I dodged that bullet.

No, I wanted to do it at the time. I thought it would be fun (and it was), but I didn't think about how I would feel afterwards. I guess I thought my H would be more aprehensive. If he had said one word about not wanting to do it, I wouldn't have gone through with it...but he didn't. At the time, I was glad..but, now I'm sad.

My h also cheated on me last year. That is when I became aware of this site. I even posted here for a while.

My h and I have been together for 17 years. We have two young kids. We have always been very "open-minded" sexually. I must admit that I cheated on my h before we were married ( in college), but never cheated once I took my marriage vows (until this incident). My h also cheated on me last year. That is when I became aware of this site. I even posted here for a while.

That thread is now burried. After my h's affair, we read hnhn, saa, and lb. We found dr Harley's advice very helpful and did it all.

At the time, we also thought that a threesome would help with some lingering issues we had with my h's affair - his guilt and my need to feel like less of a victim. We talked about it for months and decided that it could work for us to set aside the affair once and for all.

I had a long honest talk with my h last night and I do feel better now. I told him about my guilt and he admitted that he did feel jealous. We both agreed that it was a mistake that will not be repeated.

Where in all those books did you read Dr. Harley recommend going outside your marriage for SF?

Oh yes, peperband, I read the basic concepts many times. In addition we read hnhn, saa, and lb. We put all into place...20 hrs ua time, o&h, meeting needs, etc. It was through total o&h that we found out we both fantasized about a threesome. We just shouldn't have gone through with it.

I would love to council with dr Harley, but we r seriously broke.

You know, you can give him a call for free on his radio show.

What about EPs? How did you do everything if you didn't have EPs in place?

I think I'm just too messed up for anyone or anything to help me.

My h also cheated on me last year. That is when I became aware of this site. I even posted here for a while. That thread is now burried. After my h's affair, we read hnhn, saa, and lb. We found dr Harley's advice very helpful and did it all. We became so close and open and honest that we shared all sexual fantasies and found that we both fantasized about a threesome.

At the time, we also thought that a threesome would help with some lingering issues we had with my h's affair - his guilt and my need to feel like less of a victim. We talked about it for months and decided that it could work for us to set aside the affair once and for all.

1. Is a threesome cheating if it's POJA'd? (Thread title)
2. Should I feel guilty? (first post of thread)

I feel horrible. Just want to crawl into a hole and never come back out.

No, I wanted to do it at the time. I thought it would be fun (and it was), but I didn't think about how I would feel afterwards. I guess I thought my H would be more aprehensive. If he had said one word about not wanting to do it, I wouldn't have gone through with it...but he didn't. At the time, I was glad..but, now I'm sad.

You say you POJA'd the threesome. Are you sure it was mutual and enthusiastic, or was it discussed and encouraged until you wore down?

Why is the part I put in red germane to the discussion?

Why did you feel the need to say that?


That just leads me to believe that you are not the least bit sad, remorseful, guilt ridden or anything else about what you did.

That little part would be said with a smile.

committed

Put on your "big girl panties" and fix this.
No one is impressed with your self bashing.

ometimes a relationship is beyond fixing. Don't you think?

I just know that we will never ever have a normal marriage, but we will be together forever. Two twisted peas in a pod.

Sometimes a relationship is beyond fixing. Don't you think?
I'm not saying that we are going to get a divorce, far from it. In fact, we are closer now than we ever have been. The conversations we have had post threesome have been so deep, so personal, so emotional for both of us that I know we can overcome anything. I can't explain it. I just know that we will never ever have a normal marriage, but we will be together forever. Two twisted peas in a pod.

I just know that we will never ever have a normal marriage, but we will be together forever. Two twisted peas in a pod.

On top of all that, you don't want to call Dr H in case he tells you to do some hard things that you dont want to do.

Sometimes a relationship is beyond fixing. Don't you

I don't believe it was a revenge affair at all. It was you trying to buy the love of a very wayward man. But the fact that he allowed it to happen just proves he has no love and no regard for you.

Yes. That too. So what do I do now?

Indiegirl - I will put EP's in place.

What EPs? Don't be vague.

In order to make it, you are going to have to have a complete and utter lifestyle change. You are going to have to do whatever it takes to protect your marriage at all costs. Your husband will have to do the same.

NO emotional needs get met outside of the marriage. NONE. Not even with your spouse at your side.

Absolutely NO 3rd party in your sexual relationship. Not a real life man or woman, or online. Your sex life is CLOSED to the outside world. The porn you and your husband watch together has probably contributed to these fantasies. The porn has got to go. It is not healthy for your marriage.

Your husband must agree to change your way of life as well. And protect it.

posted to you before ***EDIT***. you already have issues in your relationship. you are going to bring porn into it, not to mention a 3 some.. i am not a prude but wtf you are already playing with fire.

get some confidence. look at who you are and your character and get out., or dont stand for this behavior wtf were you thinking on this one- sorry

learn who you are... set your life on who you want to be not doing things to please others, wake up, i understand fantasys but come on are you just going to throw more on your plate, do you thrive on the drama.

do you have children i forgot?

you had alot of supporters and many that gave you very amazing advice and what happened?

just my thoughts, no vet just a bit angry with a wasted opportunity. sorry.

would you like to see my EP's???? break them and i am out. sorry so harsh but i have standards not that if not upheld..i am out. we are in agreement on that!

Call Dr. Harley on his radio show. Do whatever he tells you to do.

Why don't you read this - Herpapabear's thread about EPs

H just called to apologize. Says he doesn't even want to go on the boat ride, he was upset because his co-workers were giving him crap about being to "whipped" to go. He says they are teasing him for not being a team player. Whatever.

H just called to apologize. Says he doesn't even want to go on the boat ride, he was upset because his co-workers were giving him crap about being to "whipped" to go. He says they are teasing him for not being a team player. Whatever.

fyi, they were teasing him about being "whipped" because he used you as the reason he wasn't going. He told them you wouldn't let him and threw you under the bus. A better way to handle it would have been to man up and take responsibility for his own choices. "Sorry I have changed my mind and won't be going." He didn't have to play the "wife won't let me" card.

I think they heard him talking to me about it on the phone. He works in a small open office and people close to him can hear. I can even hear them making rude comments in the background sometimes. He works with a bunch of male [censored]. Im sure that contributes to his wayward mindset. It's better than him working with a bunch of women though I think.

From now on, your marriage comes first. Get a babysitter and go on a date that night instead.

No, I wanted to do it for the reasons I've already stated. Also, I could feel my H slowly drifting away from me again (showing very little interest in me and the family) and I desperately wanted him to see that I am desirable and any man would want me.

Also, I wanted my H to feel a little bit of the Pain I felt after his A. I don't know why, but this was also important to me at the time.

This couple needs more professional help than I think the boards might be able to offer...

Were the kids in the house while this was going on??? Did you get a babysitter? Leave the kids at Mom's? "Hey, Mom. Want to take the kids for the night while we go have a threesome?" Doubt mom would have agreed to that. There's definitely a lot of lying going on here. :naughty

Your comments are giving me the impression that you stopped reading half way through the thread and missed the part where my h has done everything I have asked of him... He stands by no contact with OW (I confirm this with snooping), wrote NC letter, gave me access to all of his email and phone information, schedules ua time with me, meets all my needs, reads relationship books with me, goes to a counselor to discuss his issues, wrote a recovery plan and is sticking to it, set boundaries for himself, and is completely open and honest with me.

That is a massive alarm bell that he is in a wayward frame of mind.

prisca - do you still think I'm no more twisted than other waywards?

[quote]I'm supposed to think you're more twisted because you looked at porn? Hardly.

Let us know when you hear back from the Harleys.

[quote=Prisca]Well, that, and the fact that I like bdsm, anal, and sleeping with two men at once.

This is a new form of a pity party that you're trying to throw -- get everybody else to tell you how sick and twisted you are, and then you can feel bad about yourself.

I will not waste any more time analyzing how sick and twisted you are, nor will I compare you to other waywards. Non of this is beneficial to you, or any one else here.

Get back to working on your marriage, ok?

I have analyzed how sick and twisted you are, if it makes any difference to you.


I've seen worse, if it makes you feel better.


SB

Personally, I think you can leave out your fetishes and unuseful information.

We're not interested in hearing about it.

I just simply think it's too much information, and something I don't care to read about.

Yep, fetishes or the lack thereof do not change the underlying mindset both of you have that led to this mess.

Just a typical, entitled, wayward mindset. That's the place to start, not the irrelevant details.

Are you legally married?

Well of course, you shouldn't have looked. Don't you know better after posting here for some time?

If his albums are public, does that mean that you don't need your own Facebook account to view them?

Block Facebook as a site from your PC, if so. Never go there again.

If his albums are public, does that mean that you don't need your own Facebook account to view them?

I wish the Harleys would get back to me. I'm going crazy.

If you haven't heard anything within a couple of days after contacting them, it is possible they didn't get your original message or that your email is blocking their response. Have you checked your spam folder, if you have one?

An old friend of mine was here visiting and I told her everything. She sees nothing wrong with the 3some. In fact, she suggested that we have another 3some to make things even (since H slept with 2 women, she thinks I should get to sleep with 2 men). This is the type of mentality non-MBers have.

A lot of people believe having sex with someone you are not married to is wrong, even without Marriage Builders.

A lot of people believe having sex with more than one person at the same time is wrong, even without Marriage Builders.

I really think you need to consider picking some new friends.

I don't think it's the area. I live in a nice suburb. Most of my good friends live at least 2 hours away anyway.

My best friend, who I've known for 25 years, actually just got cheated on by her H. We are working through all of this together. I told her about the 3some and she was shocked and disappointed. She thinks it was because we were drunk, which is why we added no drinking at bars to our list of EPs. I don't know what I would do without her.

Wow,

15 pages of beating up HBD, her husband, and their choices.

Tons of advice from putting in extraordinary precautions to going to plan B.

And the Good Doctor says simply "Don't do it".

When you act a part for too long, there comes a time when you just want to be yourself. That's when the house of cards just falls.

I think you are. And that your revenge affair speaks to this. You carried out what you "wanted" to be a fantasy.

Turns out this was the fantasy of the role you played, and the guilt is telling you this. The guilt is not for the "affair". It is for the self-betrayal.


SB

Agreed. Almost all of my friends are either cheating, being cheated on, or are in the process of getting a divorce as the result of an affair.

Read "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute.


It can lead you to understand when you betray yourself, which leads you to betray others around you. SB

[quote=schoolbus]
H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?

H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?

I've highlighted the problem in red. He says. It's not that he doesn't have a choice, but he will not stand up and say "No, I will not go without my wife."

He's not on board with this program.

I just lost my job though. We would be totally screwed if he lost his.

Just the thought of him going to this thing triggers me and makes me feel bad. I'm trying to get him to find a way to let me go along. He said he would try.

I just got this email from my H: "Technically I don’t think you can go with, but maybe that’s what we’ll have to do."

What do you think? Is he on board? If not, what do I do now?

His side of why he must go/you cant sounds very weak to be honest

'Im expected to' - or what?

You either both go, or both stay. If he insists on going alone, then he's not willing to protect your marriage and he's gone.

How can porn cause sexual performance trouble?

The cause appears to be physiological, not psychological, given that such diverse men change only one variable (porn use), yet report a similar recovery pattern. For these men, anxiety is secondary.

Recent behavioral addiction research suggests that the loss of libido and performance occur because heavy users are numbing their brain's normal response to pleasure. Years of overriding the natural limits of libido with intense stimulation desensitize the user's response to a neurochemical called dopamine.

Dopamine is behind motivation, "wanting" and all addictions. It drives the search for rewards. We get little spurts of it every time we bump into anything potentially rewarding, novel, surprising, or even anxiety-producing.

Animal models have established that both sexual desire and erections arise from dopamine signals. Normally, dopamine-producing nerve cells in the reward circuitry activate the sexual (libido) centers of the hypothalamus, which in turn activate the erection centers in the spinal cord, which send nerve impulses to the genitalia. A steady stream of nerve impulses, which release nitric oxide into the penis and its blood vessels, maintain an erection.

Nitric oxide in turn stimulates the blood vessel dilator cGMP, the on/off switch for engorgement and erection. The more cGMP is available the more durable the erection. So, the pathway from the brain to an erection is:

The relevance of recent addiction brain science

In the last decade or so, addiction researchers have discovered that too much dopamine stimulation has a paradoxical effect. The brain decreases its ability to respond to dopamine signals (desensitization). This occurs with all addictions, both chemical and natural. In some porn users, the response to dopamine is dropping so low that they can't achieve an erection without constant hits of dopamine via the Internet.

Erotic words, pictures and videos have been around a long while, but the Internet makes possible a never-ending stream of dopamine spikes. Today's users can force its release by watching porn in multiple windows, searching endlessly, fast-forwarding to the bits they find hottest, switching to live sex chat, viewing constant novelty, firing up their mirror neurons with video action and cam-2-cam, or escalating to extreme genres and anxiety-producing material. It's all free, easy to access, available within seconds, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Overstimulation of the reward circuitry in the brain is a very real possibility today.

Many men don't realize their brain's sensitivity is declining toward normal sex because Internet erotica delivers endless dopamine hits�making erection and climax possible where normal encounters would not. When they try to have actual intercourse and cannot, they understandably panic.

The brain changes causing porn-induced erectile dysfunction arise from actual physical addiction processes (among them, numbing of the pleasure response of the brain). Quitting can therefore be quite challenging. In addition to an alarming temporary drop in libido, some men experience withdrawal symptoms: insomnia, irritability, panic, despair, concentration problems, and even flu-like symptoms. Finding a good counselor who understands addiction, and why today's porn has different effects from viewing a Playboy magazine, can be very helpful.

The brain needs a chance to "reboot," that is, return to normal dopamine sensitivity. This can take a couple of months. For a science teacher's explanation of the science behind porn-related erectile dysfunction, see this video presentation: Erectile Dysfunction and Porn.

Most men are astonished to learn that pornography use can be a source of sexual performance problems. Instead, many are becoming convinced that ED at twenty-something is normal. They are amazed that heavy porn use can affect them adversely, that no one told them it could affect them, and that humans have actually masturbated without porn. There is almost total ignorance about the significance for porn users of the recent discoveries of addiction science.

Anyway, I'm really nervous about what is going to happen today. My H could lose his job for having an affair in the workplace and for not being able to complete the duties his job requires.

Even if he "has" to go on this trip, there is no reason why you can't go, too. You are an adult woman and can go anywhere you want to go. The idea that the company says wives can't go is wrong; all it means is that the company won't PAY for a spouse to go.

Yes, you'll have to pay for your expenses, but since he will be in a hotel room, it shouldn't cost anything extra for you to stay in the same room. If he's driving, it shouldn't cost anything extra for you to ride with him. If he's flying, yes, you will have to pay for your ticket. Yes, you will have to pay for your meals. Yes, you will have to arrange care for your children. However, that will all be much cheaper than a divorce!

Since this event appears to be coming up in a few months, cut back on your expenses and start putting aside money for your share of the trip.

Since you're short on funds, you can amuse yourself while he's in business meetings. You can go sightseeing, take books with you to read, take knitting/crochet work with you, etc.

You and your H can enjoy each other during his down-time. If a company doesn't care if a man spends time with skanks during his down-time, then it darned sure shouldn't care if a man spends his downtime with his wife!

hbd, you probably addressed this earlier, but he doesn't still work with the OW, does he?

Anyway, I'm really nervous about what is going to happen today. My H could lose his job for having an affair in the workplace and for not being able to complete the duties his job requires.

By the end of the day, we could both be jobless and broke with two kids to support.

This is supposed to be a "team building" event. Spouses are not allowed. All team members are to stay together "on-site." All activities, meals, everything is to be done together as a "team." They will even have shared rooms. Team members are not allowed to stay "off-site" either. Managers that live just miles from the event are not even allowed to stay at home.

With these kinds of company events, it sounds like getting fired may be the best thing that could happen for you ...

Agreed. He would never find anything comperable though right now and I'm going to have a very hard time finding a job in my field right now too.

This is supposed to be a "team building" event. Spouses are not allowed. All team members are to stay together "on-site." All activities, meals, everything is to be done together as a "team." They will even have shared rooms. Team members are not allowed to stay "off-site" either. Managers that live just miles from the event are not even allowed to stay at home.

Is he looking? If they work at the same company how will he avoid seeing her? And if she works there, he could easily see her at work by going to her building or vice versa.

This might be why you have an uneasy feeling about his truthfulness.

If his A happened at the workplace why didn't YOU tell them that it happened?

And, why would you show your WH that it is OKAY to lie?

Personally, I would send the exposure to his workplace myself.

Seriously, how do you KNOW that he doesn't ever see OW? Would there ever be a chance that they read an email the other has sent? Maybe even be in on a conference call together?

What you are doing here is allowing your WH to skirt around his consequences.

I still see a lot ot wayward behaviour from him, and now I see why, he is still a wayward, and will continue to be so until his actions have real consequences.

Are you even certain that this affair didn't just go further underground?

[

Her building is 10 miles away from his...totally different departments (she's in mortgage collections, he's in auto loan underwriting). They have no chance of seeing each other or having any contact at all unless they contact each other on purpose.

Ohmigosh, those are terrible functions. I went through the Ropes courses myself at my last company and they are such a set up for affairs. It is just amazing this is still going on. You know how our first course was kicked off? GROUP HUGS!

WEll, we have facilities that are anywhere from 25 miles to 300 miles away and I see many of those coworkers at various meetings. Or they could just be attending a meeting at my building and I see them in the hallway. I work for a large company [250,000 employees] and I see people from different facilities, from different departments all the time. I get emails every day that include hundreds or thousands of employees in different locations.

I am not trying to scare you, but have you taken all these factors into consideration?

If your H's company has a no fraternization policy that would cause him to lose his job if they found out about the affair, why wait until they do find out? It has been my experience with workplace affairs that everyone usually knows and it eventually comes out.

WEll, we have facilities that are anywhere from 25 miles to 300 miles away and I see many of those coworkers at various meetings. Or they could just be attending a meeting at my building and I see them in the hallway. I work for a large company [250,000 employees] and I see people from different facilities, from different departments all the time. I get emails every day that include hundreds or thousands of employees in different locations.

I am not trying to scare you, but have you taken all these factors into consideration?

If your H's company has a no fraternization policy that would cause him to lose his job if they found out about the affair, why wait until they do find out? It has been my experience with workplace affairs that everyone usually knows and it eventually comes out.

[
I would be worried if they were in the same group, but she in the mortgage group and he's in the auto group. There's no chance of any contact. EVER.

Just thinking out loud here. I hope your H's discussion with his boss will get him out of this, but that would not have worked at my old company. It was not optional. And if a person did refuse, they would have viewed as someone who was not willing to grow with the company. Our participation was part and parcel of our performance appraisals.


The other glaring problem I see that a) his company environment leads to affairs and b) the company trips are an opportunity to hook up with the OW.

How do you know the OW works in another building and has not been included on these company trips? My point is that if your H wanted to continue his affair at work he would just lie about all this. This might be why you have an uneasy feeling about his truthfulness.

How do you know she wasn't invited to this team building trip?

Personally, I would send the exposure to his workplace myself.

Every day when I type names into my email program on my company computer, names are suggested to me to "auto-complete" what I am typing. This reminds me of people I know of by name only, people I've known who are not in this area, etc. Sometimes I even send to these people by accident. This is at a relatively small company.

If I had had an affair with one of them I would potentially be triggered to remember her every time I sent an email as part of my job.

I should also say that I also know my H and OW haven't been in contact because I have been keeping close tabs on her as well.

I know where she has been and when. I'm not going to say how I know this because it might be illegal and it's highly unelical, but I know that she hasn't been anywhere near my H's work.

I work at the same company (Investments) and I never see either of them (she's in mortgage collections and he's in auto loan underwriting).

Believe me, I've thought about this and the only reason I'm okay with this situation is because I worked at the same company in a different group and never come into contact with people from other groups.

Huh?

Sorry -- "I just lost my job" on page 17. ?

Surely your husband can find another job by October 14.

HBD,

This may be the case, but the page 17 statement isn't 100% true, is it? Splitting hairs? Nope, and here's why.

You stated this while explaining the financial impact your H's losing his job would have on you both. "You would be screwed". Not the whole truth is it? The whole truth is that you've got 90-days on payroll, so the true calamity isn't as great as you stated, correct?

Big deal around here, as you are finding out.

We are barely making ends meet with both of our incomes as it is.

Well if you must know all of the exact details of the layoff, my whole department was given a 30 day "pre-notice" towards the end of July. On August 25, we will get a 60 day "notice." Of that 60 days, we will work 50 and not work for 10. So, I work until October 14th and get paid until the end of October.

Honestly, didn't think anyone would care to know all of the exact details of my layoff situation. The fact is, I have been laid off. As a result, I AM still screwed if my H is fired. We are barely making ends meet with both of our incomes as it is.

You make it sound like if your husband gets fired today, all is lost.

Yet, if you're getting paid till the end of October, then you're not going to be out on the street tomorrow if your husband is fired today.

I don't think you were lying. But I do think you like the drama.

Your husband CAN get a job by the end of October, if he's not picky. He may not like the job, but he can put food on the table.

It also sounds like you're not living within your means.

I don't think any body is thinking "What's the big deal?"
Markos and I have been in tight financial situations -- feeding a family of 6 on $64 a week. One of those 6 people was an infant with a liver condition who required very expensive formula ($20 a can, 2-3 cans a week).

I understand being scared.

But you're still being over-dramatic. You're not going to be out on the street tomorrow. You're not going to starve. You'll probably have to cut way back on your expenses, and eat beans and rice for awhile. You may have to sell some things. But you will survive.

Your husband will find a job. You have a whole country to look in. And he's not bound to his particular field.

If he just hadn't had an affair, we would be fine and wouldn't have to change our standard of living at all! It's just so unfair!

Ugh! H didn't talk to his boss today. Says he was too busy.

And I'm too busy for cancer.

And I'm too busy for cancer. Anywhoo...wrote this earlier.

You are in great hands with Prisca and many others. One thing amongst many that I've learned here at MBs is that, whether you are a WH, WW, BS, or none of the above but seeking counsel, there is little room for drama. Think about this: how often do you use or think words like

always
ruined
never
constantly
can't




You get the point. What MB will help you do is see a) where you are, and, b) how to get where you want to be regardless of the destination, provided that destination is a healthy one (meaning not continuing an A, etc.) You're already finding out by way of firehose that issues in your M are not limited to an A or any other behaviors in the M department, but the net cast is much bigger. Sound like bad news? No! Just the opposite, in fact.

An A or mutual indiscretions are inexcusable actions, yet fix-able symptoms.

You saw Prisca's (and others) response to the job situation. It's not that you �lied�, OK? Think about how YOU posted your situation, Ms. Drama. See? The reality is that the world will not crash around you, you will not fall into financial ruins, and you will not die. What you will be potentially is strapped for awhile. That's the reality from someone who financially ruined herself twice, never to do again.

Why �never to do again�? I have personal financial boundaries, and have for 8 years now. I tell every person I know without shame that I only pay cash now as I almost lost my house because of my poor money management and excessive credit card debt and living beyond my means in the past. (EXPOSURE!) In other words, I set up my own financial EPs for ME. I have people still to this day that call me on it...confusing a debit card with a credit card. Always a good laugh. I set up my own accountability measurement.

See the common message and strategy? This website is called MarriageBuilders, not �how to overcome an affair builders�. Overcoming affairs is only one aspect of the concepts here, but the concepts are consistent.

Keep posting, stick with it, and good luck.

hbd,

Sorry to hear about the job situation. FWIW, I don't consider what you posted as lying. Overreaction and panic, but not lying. A natural state, considering the situation you are facing, and the economic situation the world faces as well.


So, the advice I have for you is this: when you face a crisis or emergency, the best thing a person can do is


HAVE A PLAN.


As with MB, you have a plan in place to address the marital crisis. So it should go with the job crisis you face.


Anticipate perhaps that hubby may also face changing jobs, because if the affair happens to be exposed at work - and let's face it, someone ELSE might do this for you in the workplace (you might not be able to control this!). So, have a plan for that possibility, however remote you might think it is.


Sit down with him, talk about this, and discuss how the two of you will approach it. AS A TEAM. Because you are a team right now.


SB

HBD,

I just have an idea for you. Why not start your own little company with your H and be your own employers. That will give you most needed time together and that is an excellent opportunity for true team building.

Think of what is your profession, what are your skills and what are your other interests/hobbies. With your H's you have plenty on the table. This double package might give you many ideas what your future company might sell.

In our country, starting your own business is real easy and not expensive at all.

Me and my H knew that our job situation would change in Aug-Sept this year and we really didn't want to continue as employees anymore. It took 2 months to brainstorm ideas, discuss and read things through and have our first agreements. You have that time at hand, too.

I asked him why he was so mad before and he said, "Let's say you are walking across the street concentrating on your phone or something and someone runs up to you and pushes you to the ground. At first, you get angry and yell at the person for pushing you. But, then you notice that there was a bus coming down the street that would have hit you if the person hadn't pushed you to the ground. So, you become grateful and thank them instead."

I just realized...OW was trying to get ME and my H fired when she went to HR.

First, she tried to steal my life. Then, when that didn't work out, she tried to sabotage my life instead. What kind of person does that? Unbelievable. I can't believe my H found her remotely appealing.

I love this analogy, think he's really starting to get it. That's all thanks to you setting healthy boundaries, insisting on protection and being honest about how much it means to you.

It helps me realise should I ever be in a position to do recovery with my h, that I will need to be tough.

Then the risky honesty with the boss and it tuns out he knew all along!!!

Honesty really is the best policy isn't it?

You both still have a long way to go but I think you deserve a little clap for putting great advice into practice. Keep it up..

You both still have a long way to go but I think you deserve a little clap for putting great advice into practice. Keep it up..

If your husband doesn't find a job soon enough, consider moving to an area that is in a boom.

Williston, ND is one example. Because of the oil field, there are jobs everywhere, both in the oil field itself, and in all the supporting industries. The big problem is finding housing, but if you can resolve that, the jobs are there.

That's just one example. The country still has plenty of places that are growing, and looking for people to work there.

My OW is the same, sometimes I roll around laughing thinking of how pathetic she is.

Calling her would take away your superiority and dignity. I get why you want to though.

Think of her evil little screwed up face when she was trying to get her revenge on you with HR. Pitiful.

He has the list of EPs, he knows they're non negotiable.

Although we discussed those precautions, I don't think I ever gave them to you in writing and you need a reminder, so here they are:

1. Protect me and my feelings above all else.
2. Absolutely no contact with your affair partner.
3. Make all phone, email, and texting information available to me.
4. No sharing personal information with females unless I am by your side.
5. No one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
6. No going out drinking with friends if females will be present.
7. No overnight stays away from me.
8. Use the policy of joint agreement (POJA) as a basis for all decisions.
9. Be open and honest with me at all times.
10. Commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with me to meet each other’s emotional needs every week
11. Anytime you think, “I don’t want you to know about…….”, call me immediately and tell me.
12. Continually work on our relationship with discussions and relationship books.
13. Avoid porn and self stimulation

So he's trying to lawyer you, eh? Nice.

What about number one? and number 8?

If you arent enthuiastic the decision should not be made, even when something isnt an EP, which this is.

If he needs the EPs need to be nailed on tighter, do it. Change the EPS to cover what is specifically bothering you about the trip? Is it the alcohol? The fact that the buddies are chauvenist pigs?

Did they support the A by the way?

Regardless, their company and drinking is not a great combination for a wayward.

Its sort of like a gambler going to meet a bunch of jockeys with inside knowledge.. Its not technically the track but its just too close for comfort to what feeds the addiction..

If he needs the EPs need to be nailed on tighter, do it. Change the EPS to cover what is specifically bothering you about the trip? Is it the alcohol? The fact that the buddies are chauvenist pigs?

Did they support the A by the way?

POJA does not include compromises. If you settled on a compromise that you are not happy about, then POJA didn't happen. And, if you were initially happy about it, but are no longer enthusiastic, then the answer is to do nothing until the two of you renegotiate. NOT continue with the original plans regardless of your feelings.

You're not happy about him going, therefore he doesn't go. Period.

I thought the trip bothered me because I wouldn't know what he is doing. But, we POJA'd the VAR, so I would know what he's doing and it's still bothering me...so now I think it's just that I feel like I'm #2 to his work. It makes me feel like I'm not important to him, which hurts my feelings. Does that make sense, or am I being selfish?

There are two kinds of resentment: (1) Resentment due to something one of you DID to the other that was hurtful, and (2) resentment due to something you DIDN'T do for yourself that you would have liked, but would have hurt your spouse. Your husband has the first kind of resentment because you had an affair three months into your marriage. What you did hurt him. You have the second kind of resentment because you now feel obligated to avoid seeing a friend who is a threat to your husband.

I think you would agree with me that the first kind of resentment is the worst, because your husband knows you deliberately hurt him. It's no wonder he's having trouble recovering from the experience. Your poor communication may be partly due to the fact that he is still trying to recover from the shock.

The second kind of resentment, the kind you are experiencing, may be uncomfortable, but life is full of instances where we need to control ourselves for the protection of others. In other words, I'm saying that whatever resentment you may feel about not being able to see your friend is nothing compared to the resentment you would feel if your husband had indulged in an affair.

hbd, have you read this thread of Extraordinary Precautions?

This kind of list protects both of you eventually and is not the subject of poja. Read this thread very carefully.

I don't want my h resenting me or feeling controlled, so I don't enforce the EPs. I guess I just need to be stronger...easier said than done, I guess

I think you are taking the whole situation too lightly. Reread this EPs thread and especially the part where HPB discusses why EPs are necessary. You should never trust a WS.

I think my main problem is myself. I don't want my h resenting me or feeling controlled,

he hasn't been out without me since d-day. This outing would be his first in 7 months.

POJA doesnt mean - I'll 'put up' with something I am not enthusiastic about (boat trip) in exchange for something I want (lunches)

It means you both have to be enthusiastic about each and every single decision.

You arent happy about the boat trip - you've told him so twice. But you arent happy with having your arm twisted either and being guilted by him. So you cave and throw POJA out the window.

Entusiasm is the key word. If youre not enthusiastic, it doesnt happen, you keep coming up with alternatives.

no more tit for tat deals

WHAT?! He hasnt been out with you yet, but when he gets invited on a boat trip with a bunch of guys, he's acts like cinders not being able to go to the ball? ?.

I don't know, HBD, I've got bad feelings about this.

Are you each others FAVORITE recreational companions?

I don't know, HBD, I've got bad feelings about this.

Are you each others FAVORITE recreational companions?

I don't know, HBD, I've got bad feelings about this.

Are you each others FAVORITE recreational companions?

Yes. We have a great time together. Have SF almost daily. Snuggle every night. Show each other a lot of affection, etc...

Also, H said he wanted me to go along on boat trip. I said I didn't want to go because I would be the only spouse there and would feel uncomfortable.

Also, H said he wanted me to go along on boat trip. I said I didn't want to go because I would be the only spouse there and would feel uncomfortable.

Now you are getting me nervous. What is giving you a bad feeling? Do you think he would try to meet OW or something? Cause I have my eye on both of them and would know if that happened.

Go!

A lot of things give me a bad feeling about this

1. You very recently were reluctant about him going. You may have changed your mind, but the fact remains that you were at one point reluctant.
2. He threw a fit about that.
3. I don't believe you need to be having recreation separately right now. The danger is in setting up a situation where he compares the fun he has with his friends to the fun he has with you.

So what if you're the only spouse? I've gone to plenty of events with my husband's set team and been the only spouse to go. His team members are amazed when I show up mid week that I care enough about my husband to come to his companies events, even though I usually end up driving because they're mid week and held wherever the team is that week. His coworkers think we have an amazing marriage (I think we do to).

And, my DH comes to my company events, sometimes as the only spouse, and he's made a few guy friends out of some of my male coworkers and it's been good for us.

I really want my wife to go with me on the boat trip. I really don't like spending more time with my co workers then I need to and I really miss my wife when I don't get to spend time with her.... I can understand why my wife doesn't want to go, I work with whiny people and they will complain. Although I don't care. My peers and manager get it, only the ones that report to me and other managers are like that.

Huh?

What's to think through?

I'll just be uncomfortable. I'm picturing people giving me dirty looks and being unfriendly. I'd much rather just have h take a var.

What about Recreational Companionship?

What worries me is the concentration on having friends right now instead of being together and working on your marriage.

Your marriage just very recently took some hard blows.

Dr. Harley says there is no problem with independent recreational activities when:

* You and your spouse are following the Policy of Undivided Attention (POUA)
* The activity is not spent with members of opposite sex
* You are each others' favorite recreational companion
* The activity meets with enthusiastic agreement

When you can engage in the activity, but find yourself missing your spouse's company, THAT'S when you're ready for individual recreation. Is that where the two of you are?

And, how long is that going to last?

Look...I was just going to site examples...deleted.

I'd much rather a lot of things.

You need to put your big girl pants on and get there with your head held high. Be nice, be charming, and if you're anything like my couple-friend...address head on. They are slightly crazy, though.


Not ready for that? OK. Go and be nice. You can't run, dollface. Dirty looks are very highschool...adults will test and test you, and eventually respect you both. You've gotta weather that storm if want to and then you'll earn it. And, you can. It'll take years. Got that?

EPs prevent unnecessary discussions over boundaries every time the situation occurs. Once you have "no outings alone" in the EPs list, there wouldn't be any discussion about whether he should go alone, with VAR, without it or what you should do about it all together. There would only be 2 options - you go together or not at all. Him going alone would not be an option at all.

You have to start from somewhere - you cannot continue living as if there were no affairs, no other meltdowns in your life.

this has come up alot between us,,,, and is a poja constantly next month we have 4 of them. but on friday my H had an outing, i flipped back and for like you- and i know his collegues.

h sent a car service i drove 2 hours and went to the outing, i looked great and yes the other were jealous that their wives werent there.

his boss said to me are "you" behaving ( as a joke) i said of course then he said i guess i should as if h is.... ok a bit uncomfortable-

we took a hotel room and came home.

its part of the EP's.

yes i was annoyed that i had to change my life but that the way it is now.

go on the stupid boat trip, catch alot of fish and look like you are loving it. otherwise you will be pissed at him when he is home and pissed at yourself for not going.

Thanks Chicadee. Ok, lets say I go and have an aweful time. Hating every minute because H's colleagues give me a hard time. Won't I then be resentful? That's not POJA either.

I've basically come to the conclusion that there is no way to POJA this type of situation. Either I'm going to be unhappy that I have to go along or H is going to be unhappy he can't go. So frustrating.

yes i was annoyed that i had to change my life but that the way it is now.

Is there a way that you can adjust your mindset about this outing? There are business functions that I attend with my H when I'd prefer not to go. Actually, sometimes I'd prefer bamboo shoots under my nails rather than having to go! I can work up enthusiasm for the event by thinking:

It's one evening.

I'm going to attend with H and really support him because I'm so proud of him.

I'm going to pick one person I don't know very well and make sure they have a positive impression of me as the woman who is married to their colleague.

We can POJA to attend this event and then go to your favorite lunch spot, recreational place, wherever - fill in the blank next weekend.

I'm going to go to this event and practice my skills in gracefulness under adversity.

You get the picture - can you adjust the way you're looking at this event? I get the impression that you've decided you're going to be miserable and that's that.

It's just not fair that we have to change so much when they are the ones that lied and cheated. I'm feeling the resentment build and this is what I was afraid of happening. I'm not even at the event yet.

It's just not fair that we have to change so much when they are the ones that lied and cheated. I'm feeling the resentment build and this is what I was afraid of happening. I'm not even at the event yet.

It's just that I wasn't invited to this particular event

I would definitely go and have fun if it didn't specifically say on the invite "team members only." In fact, I've already gone to some events with H and had a great time. It's just that I wasn't invited to this particular event and H works with a bunch of whiny babies that will cry and complain about it. Seriously, they will.

I've basically come to the conclusion that there is no way to POJA this type of situation. Either I'm going to be unhappy that I have to go along or H is going to be unhappy he can't go. So frustrating.

This is a boat ride.

Did you read Markos' post, where he mentioned hysterical bonding? Did you read Dr. Harley's article that he linked to?

HBD, I think it's just too soon for the two of you to be going to separate recreational events. Your marriage took a severe blow very recently. It is fragile. I think you need to be concentrating on recovery and not on having friends and doing things with friends.

I believe when this subject first came up, I said either you both go, or neither of you goes. I still stand by that. You need to be together for recreational events.

Read about the 2 types of resentment, again.

Right. So the best choice is for H not to go on boat trip.

Looks like they're going to have to consider revising that policy, since it doesn't work for their married 'team members'.

Let the whiny babies whine. If your H wants to be there with you, that's all you need to know. If a superior of his says anything to your H, he can tell them that the two of you have a standing agreement concerning attending events together. Unless he's on Obama's secret staff, and they'll be planning the next take-down of a world despot, there's nothing work-related that will be happening that should require your exclusion. This is a boat ride.

Right. So the best choice is for H not to go on boat trip.

I agree, and I'd take special delight in showing up to make them whine and talking in a classy way that made them realize how rude they were being.

1. I can go along and try to put on a happy face
2. We don't go at all and we have a nice evening at home...have some wine, go in jacuzzi, light some candles, I give him a massage, etc.

I fear that will lead to resentment on your H's part.

sorry you are having to go thru all of this.

i know i hate it also. I am going to print the last few pages for my h to read beacuse we have the samething coming up again, and it will be an issue for us forever. thats when he carried on, so no events alone.

but i may be reliving your thread on mine in a few weeks/days.

i hope all of the whiny employees get a choppy night and get sick, ooohh was that bad... as long as you arent on the boat. an outbreak of seasickness would give them thought to having the boat ride at all.

Oh, that's another thing. I get seasick. The last time I was on a small boat, I had nausea and vertigo for a whole day.

I also find it interesting that so many are encouraging hbd to attend. She doesn't appear enthusiastic about it, so really shouldn't that be the end of the story?

But it's not simply a matter of hbd not wanting to go. She doesn't want her H to go, either. There is a POJA issue here.

Side note: Any company that creates socializing opportunities that exclude spouses is setting themselves up on a slippery slope toward possible future sexual harrassment issues. These non-spouse get-togethers stink all the way around.

[quote=maritalbliss] [quote]Side note: Any company that creates socializing opportunities that exclude spouses is setting themselves up on a slippery slope toward possible future sexual harrassment issues. These non-spouse get-togethers stink all the way around.

Which is why I think we should just not go. I am leaving the final choice up to H, but I think he should make a stand and say, "If you are going to plan non-spouse events, I simply won't be there."

It is always okay for spouses to attend company functions. Even when the company says no. Regardless of past infidelity or not.

These kinds of cutesy statements do not help people deal with actual problems.

That's what you really want here isn't hbd? For your H to stand up for your marriage and do the right thing. To make you feel safe without having to POJA it.

I feel like I am missing something here. What about EPs?

H decided to go and bring me along with him. The funny thing was when he told his co-worker (the guy taking RSVPs) he wanted to go and bring me along, the co-worker said it was just fine. In fact, another manager is bringing is wife. H said great, count us in! But, the co-worker (guy taking RSVPs) said now there isn't enough room on the boat for both of us. We waited too long to make the decision.

Remember this next time! Maybe you won't dread it the next time so much with this knowledge.

The EPs I gave H (posted earlier in this thread) are:

1. Protect me and my feelings above all else.
2. Absolutely no contact with your affair partner.
3. Make all phone, email, and texting information available to me.
4. No sharing personal information with females unless I am by your side.
5. No one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
6. No going out drinking with friends if females will be present.
7. No overnight stays away from me.
8. Use the policy of joint agreement (POJA) as a basis for all decisions.
9. Be open and honest with me at all times.
10. Commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with me to meet each other�s emotional needs every week
11. Anytime you think, �I don�t want you to know about��.�, call me immediately and tell me.
12. Continually work on our relationship with discussions and relationship books.
13. Avoid porn and self stimulation

The EP that would apply to this boat trip is #6, but since he wouldn't be drinking it technically is ok with my EPs. So, we have to POJA it.

And, since you know that you can't go now anyway, even if you wanted to, start planning for that MIND-BLOWING DATE! Make it something that David will have NO regrets missing the boat ride for.

Maybe #6 needs to be re-visited since it is causing so much upheaval in your life and is not serving its intended purpose.

The fact is that many work events include socializing opportunities - e.g., a retreat to discuss strategic planning, held outside of the office that includes some of kind of recreation, or a one-day conference in the same city.

Yes. I'm going to change it to no going out without me if females will be present.

Any company that has to include a social activity in their 'strategic planning' activity is missing the boat (sorry, hbd, I just had to say that )

There's a difference between working with members of the opposite sex and having recreation with them, Kerala.

Do you work outside the home, Prisca?

Do you work outside the home, Prisca?

Hi, I'm David ...as in the Hurt By David, David (hbd's husband). I really want my wife to go with me on the boat trip. I really don't like spending more time with my co workers then I need to and I really miss my wife when I don't get to spend time with her. Especially at the end of the week when that's the whole motivation to get through the work week. As a manager in my company it's strongly encouraged for me to participate in theses team events. That's a big reason why I wanted to tell my boss of my past so he would either understand why I wouldn't participate in theses events or why it was so important to be able to bring my wife along. I can understand why my wife doesn't want to go, I work with whiny people and they will complain. Although I don't care. My peers and manager get it, only the ones that report to me and other managers are like that.

Do you work outside the home, Prisca?

Oh. BTW, I also heard a rumor that affair is busted up. The OW is really mad at her former boss.

OMG, you must be kidding! No disrespect, but in my world spouses are NEVER formally invited. N.e.v.e.r. They are not "uninvited", but it's up to the spouse to invite/include, and pay for (as it should be, in my opinion) them.

Yeah, this topic has my name all over it. Not the 3-some thing, the work thing, lol. Hbd, my thread "duped" has my long hard battle with just this, if you have a few days to read it.

Will do! Thanks.

H told another co-worker about the affair yesterday. I was really surprised because not too long ago, he didn't want anyone to know. Now he's telling people when there is no need! Anyway, he says he wants people to know why he isn't on the boat trip and for people to know why he won't be going to any events without me.

H told another co-worker about the affair yesterday. I was really surprised because not too long ago, he didn't want anyone to know. Now he's telling people when there is no need! Anyway, he says he wants people to know why he isn't on the boat trip and for people to know why he won't be going to any events without me.

Complain about things you don't like, be firm and steady, don't compromise, spend lots of fun time together working on a common goal, don't be afraid of exposure, ask for what you want, do not settle for less. Ignore anyone who uses the phrase "real world", they are often morally wrong, very, very wrong.

H told another co-worker about the affair yesterday. I was really surprised because not too long ago, he didn't want anyone to know. Now he's telling people when there is no need! Anyway, he says he wants people to know why he isn't on the boat trip and for people to know why he won't be going to any events without me.

This is a great step for him, hbd

Prisca doesn't need to work outside of the home to understand the danger of excluding spouses during a socializing event. Do any of us?

I know. I'm so pleased. The last bit of fog might finally be clearing?

Markos' company decided that, in order to build moral, they were going to set up an office secret pal program.

Caveat: Unless it was a male/male or female/female secret pal. Totally different. Totally acceptable in that case. Somehow I suspect the company wasn't that conscious.

Thanks!!!

I will continue to be firm about my stance on the subject and not settle, but how do I do this without making DJs or demands?

The co-worker (a married man with 4 kids) said something like "oh, I can see how that could happen." David said he almost told him to read HNHN because obviously he needs to affair proof his marriage! It made me smile because he now sees how that mindset is dangerous.

hbd,

Well a little confused. Posted here other night but now thinking this may be a comedy farce hypothetical deal. Or just that maybe I am too old now to keep up!..*s*

(tj: this is my 700th post ... that's a lot of talking for me! okay, end tj)

(tj: this is my 700th post ... that's a lot of talking for me! okay, end tj)

I assure you, this is not a farce or hypothetical. This is my life. I suppose some might consider my life to be a comedy, but I feel it's more of a tragedy.

If you go by traditional thought, a comedy ends in marriage, and tragedy ends in death, so your life will most certainly be both. You can get out of marrying, but nobody gets out of dying!

I think she's well aware of that. She and her husband are really beginning to make progress. He's starting to impress me, and I have no doubt that if they continue down the MB path that they're following, they're gonna end up alright

(tj: this is my 700th post ... that's a lot of talking for me! okay, end tj)

I think she's well aware of that. She and her husband are really beginning to make progress. He's starting to impress me, and I have no doubt that if they continue down the MB path that they're following, they're gonna end up alright

(tj: this is my 700th post ... that's a lot of talking for me! okay, end tj)

I think you're right about digging for the reasons beneath and putting the focus on him. He is probably the more dishonest one and I would hesitate to call him a BS.

However hbd does need to examine her own boundaries and weaknesses too. I appreciate she hasnt been overtly dishonest with her h, but she was ok with getting her needs met elsewhere.

She has been brutally honest with us here (and with herself) and that will allow us to help her avoid more adultery on either part.