Marriage Builders
Posted By: Cliffy177 Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/03/11 11:56 PM
Hi everyone,

This is my first post. I've done a lot of reading on the forum, and it has helped me get through this most difficult time in my life. I found out 4 weeks ago my wife of 14 years cheated on me with an ex-boyfriend. It had been going on for 2 months, until I was suspicious and found emails that are too explicit and painful to repeat.

We have since gone through many stages together, and are now trying to sort things out. The OM is now out of the picture. She says she will do anything to try to hold onto our marriage.

I've not read anywhere about what I can do in the 'short term' to try to not think about all the pain. I can only assume (and rightly so), there is no magic formula to recovery. The only time when I don't feel pain is when we are intimate, and we have been very intimate in the last 4 weeks. But during intimacy is about the only time that I'm able to not feel pain. At all other times when I am alone to think or even to talk to my wife about, it is so painful and raw. I really don't know if I can ever forgive her and this scares me, as I do love her deeply.

My second questions is around forgiveness. How can I forgive the person I love most for the betrayal she has caused. She is not meant to do this me. A big part of me doesn't want me to forgive, and to separate with her. I read many articles about life after divorce, and I know it isn't all rosy. I keep hearing from everyone to stay, and to try to work things out. Again, I don't know how I can ever forgive her.

Please help!
Posted By: Bryanp Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:08 AM
You are going through a very painful process. What were the reasons your wife gave you for her betrayal? You both need to get tested for STD's. Marriage counseling and individual counseling is a must.
Wait for people like Pepperband and Melody to offer up their sage advise. They will help you. Good luck.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
My second questions is around forgiveness. How can I forgive the person I love most for the betrayal she has caused. She is not meant to do this me. A big part of me doesn't want me to forgive, and to separate with her. I read many articles about life after divorce, and I know it isn't all rosy. I keep hearing from everyone to stay, and to try to work things out. Again, I don't know how I can ever forgive her.

Hi Cliffy, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry this has happened to you.

Are you certain that all contact has ended? How do you know? Is the OM married and if so, has his wife been informed of the affair?

The answer about forgiveness is that she should EARN your forgiveness. She earns that by quitting contact, changing her bad habits that allowed this to happen in the first place [usually inappropriate boundaries around the opposite sex] and commits to a program of recovery.

Check this out, it is a real eye opener and will save you alot of grief in understanding the subject of forgiveness: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

If those steps are not taken, you will end up with the kind of marriage IndianaBones describes in his thread. It will be a life of hell. See, most marriages do not ever recover from affairs. They stay together but they limp along in misery in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. Marriages that don't recover often experience repeat affairs and eventually divorce. Your marriage does not have to be like that if you use this program. And I do mean in its entirety. Those who cherry pick get very little out of it.

I would suggest getting the books Surviving an Affair and the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love and folllowing the program in there. You can also access Dr Harley on his radio show. The radio show is FREE and is very, very helpful to anyone who wants to change their marriage.

It is perfectly natural for you to think about the pain. It is not going away over night. But working on recovering your marriage and never bringing up the affair again will help you get over it faster. Every time you talk about it, you trigger those feelings. So, please stop talking about it with her.
Posted By: BillCarolina Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:23 AM
Just hang on.....the Veterans will be along here in time.

It's called a "Roller Coaster Ride" for a reason.

Hang on!!

In the meantime.....get into reading ALL the info on this site.....go to the BOOKSTORE and buy the book "Surviving an Affair".
Read it!.....then read it again!

We are here for you!!
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:29 AM
Cliffy, welcome to Marriage Builders. I'm so sorry for the pain you are experiencing from this terrible affair.

Understand that what you're going through is normal. Healing from a devastating thing like this is a process, and it will be helpful if your WW (wayward wife) is remorseful and ready to help you heal.

Can you tell us a little more background? How old are you both? Any kids?

How did she meet up with the old boyfriend? How do you know they are no longer in contact? Is the old boyfriend married?

When and how did you find out about the affair?

I'm sorry to throw so many questions at you - I am a formerly betrayed wife, and I know the pain you are working through right now. But this info will help us to help you formulate a plan to recover your marriage. And the good news is that it can be done, Cliffy! You can get your marriage back on track and make it better than it ever was. We have tools here to help you do that.

Posted By: Caracal Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:32 AM
Hi Cliffy, sorry you have joined the club no-one wants to find themselves members of... but you're in the right place on this forum. Traffic can be slow on the weekends. Wait for the vets to arrive and start giving advice...

They will need some more information about your situation to be able to help... do you have kids, what steps has your wife taken to ensure affair is over (like no contact for life with OM). I'm not sure how much reading you have done, have you got yourself a copy of SAA? Make sure you read it.

Originally Posted by Cliffy177
My second questions is around forgiveness. How can I forgive the person I love most for the betrayal she has caused. She is not meant to do this me. A big part of me doesn't want me to forgive, and to separate with her. I read many articles about life after divorce, and I know it isn't all rosy. I keep hearing from everyone to stay, and to try to work things out. Again, I don't know how I can ever forgive her.

Please help!

Whilst waiting for the vets, read this article... I am by no means anywhere near recovery myself so can't really answer about forgiveness but this article may answer some of your questions about steps that you both need to take. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Hang in there!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:33 AM
This is a great synopsis about what it takes to recover from an affair, written by Dr Harley to a betrayed wife:

Originally Posted by DR Bill Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.
here
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:37 AM
Thanks bryanp.

In a nutshell, we've been trying to have a second child for 3.5 years, and the stresses of this has caused her to do this. Rather than talking to me about the pain she's going through (and I tried many many times), she sought solace in another man. He took full advantage of her insecurities, and one thing lead to another.

We've been tested for STD's. Negative. It's the first thing we did after I found out she had unprotected sex.
Posted By: Caracal Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:39 AM
Oops, the vets have already arrived. blush
Posted By: Bryanp Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:41 AM
Cliffy,

If you were in the process of trying to have another child; wasn't she worried about getting pregnant by having unprotected sex with the OM?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:42 AM
Has the WW sent a NC letter?

Has the OMW been told about the affair?

How did you find out?

What steps are you taking to verify that there is NC?

Has WW been willing to answer your questions about the affair?

Does the OM live close by and or work with WW?
Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:48 AM
The first thing is not to expect the feelings to go away anytime soon. This is a deep cut into your heart and it will take lots of time to heal; many say up to two years and beyond. The good news is the sharpness of the pain becomes dull over time, and is not so intense so as to seem disabling.

One of the keys to recovery is the 15 hours of UA (undivided attention) you and your W should spend. This is critical to recovery. Spend that time together with no distractions and limit discussion of the A to predetermined periods, such as an hour, during the course of an evening. Dwelling on A conversations is stressful for both parties.

Your feelings are very real and very justified. Learning to function with this dark cloud takes some getting used to. Some of the best advice I received here is to remember the healing process is a marathon, not a sprint. Hang in there and continue to use MB as a touchstone to keep you on track.

best wishes
sd
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:48 AM
Quote
In a nutshell, we've been trying to have a second child for 3.5 years, and the stresses of this has caused her to do this. Rather than talking to me about the pain she's going through (and I tried many many times), she sought solace in another man. He took full advantage of her insecurities, and one thing lead to another.
Let me disabuse you of this misguided thought, Cliffy. She didn't have an affair because she was stressed by trying to get pregnant. She didn't jump into an affair because she was in pain from not getting pregnant. He didn't 'take advantage' of her 'insecurities'.

Your WW had an affair because her boundaries were poor and she chose to have certain emotional needs met by another man. More than likely the two of you slid into a 'comfortable' place and you both may have slacked off on trying to keep your marriage your No. 1 priority. That's when caring for important emotional needs can drop down on the priority list.

Your WW had an opportunity to have her needs met by another man. She took the opportunity. That's all it is.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Thanks bryanp.

In a nutshell, we've been trying to have a second child for 3.5 years, and the stresses of this has caused her to do this. Rather than talking to me about the pain she's going through (and I tried many many times), she sought solace in another man. He took full advantage of her insecurities, and one thing lead to another.

We've been tested for STD's. Negative. It's the first thing we did after I found out she had unprotected sex.

I hope that you are using protection since Dday. Unfortunately but you don't need the stress of raising a child now. And hate to add that I hope your WW does not appear pregnant soon due to paternity reasons. If WW does get pregnant the one thing that must be done is to keep this news from the OM and anyone that can tell him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Thanks bryanp.

In a nutshell, we've been trying to have a second child for 3.5 years, and the stresses of this has caused her to do this. Rather than talking to me about the pain she's going through (and I tried many many times), she sought solace in another man. He took full advantage of her insecurities, and one thing lead to another.

Thanks Cliffy. The real reason she had the affair is due to her poor boundaries around members of the opposite sex. Just the fact that she is in touch with an x-boyfriend demonstrates that. Her stress had nothing to do with it.

So, the first step is to realistically address why she had an affair and change those conditions. She needs to end her opposite sex friendships, delete any social networking pages and OF COURSE, not associate with any ex-boyfriends. Ex boyfriends are an invitation to an affair, as you have learned the hard way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by shattered dreams
One of the keys to recovery is the 15 hours of UA (undivided attention) you and your W should spend. This is critical to recovery. Spend that time together with no distractions and limit discussion of the A to predetermined periods, such as an hour, during the course of an evening. Dwelling on A conversations is stressful for both parties

Bingo!! And the undivided attention worksheet is in the back of that workbook. I would tear it out, make copies and set down with your wife and make up a schedule. The MB program does not work without this step.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 01:44 AM
Wow!

I never expected to hear back from so many people. Thank you very much for your words of advice and support. I am doing so much reading based on your suggestions, and bit by bit it is helping. Especially knowing that others have gone through this pain too, and knowing that there is life after this.

To provide more info on my situation:
I am 37 and my WW is 38. We have a 5 yo daughter. We've been trying for 3.5 years, and she blames me for starting late with trying for the 2nd child. We've been tested, and she is actually the reason why we haven't had the 2nd child yet (and I've never blamed or said this to her as I know how much pain that it would cause her). As she incorrectly blamed me, I've tried many many times over the years to talk to her about it and move forward. It worked a few times, but it always fell in a heap every time her period came. We never grew apart at anytime, and I won't say I have been the perfect husband. In hindsight I definitely could have done more, but when she's unwilling to talk to me about this as she 'blames' me, you can see how it was hard.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
We've been trying for 3.5 years, and she blames me for starting late with trying for the 2nd child.

Cliffy, when a wife has an affair she typically manufactures grievances against her husband in an attempt to justify her affair. Wayward avoid taking accountability. Her complaints about you are a way to divert the blame to you. The reason she had the affair was very simple: she has shabby, inappropriate boundaries around men.

And I so hope you put off having a child for at least 5 years. It would be a disaster to your marriage and certainly not fair to your 5 year old. Her affair should be enough to take that off the table.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 01:50 AM
How long married?
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 02:01 AM
Understand that my wife never intended to tell me, and said it was about to end when I found out and confronted her. Below is what she TOLD me.

My WW works like I do. She rarely travels for work, but 2 months ago went interstate for work. In her words, fate hate has it that she bumps into her ex-boyfriend on the street. She said hi, and left it at that. As she works for a large corporation, he managed to figure out her email address and emailed to catch up for dinner. She agreed and told me it was an innocent catch up night and that was meant to be it. She didn't tell me at the time she caught up with her ex.

A week later, he contacts her again, and conveniently tells her he has temporary work in the city that we live in (over 500 miles away). Apparently, it was meant to be in city for 11 days. 11 days got extended to a month, then 2 months before I found out.

He asked her out to dinner again, and she agreed and lied to me about having dinner with work colleagues. That night, they kissed.

From there, they communicated more and more everyday. She would spend her lunches talking to him.

Kissing turned into passionate kissing, touching and after a few weeks sex....I think you can guess the rest. What scares me is, in the emails I read, she told him many times how much she loved him. If you love someone, can you just go cold turkey on them like she did to him?

I think the OM is very manipulative. She confided in him about our problems and he conveniently confided in her about his relationship of 7 years - about how he's about to break up with his partner.

She never thought unprotected sex could lead to her being pregnant with him as they used the withdrawal method. Very naive and stupid, I know.

She has not sent him final letter, but has told him on the phone that she wants to be with me, and even if we divorce that she will never be with him. She has told me every time he's tried to contact - two times.

Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 02:03 AM
We've been married 14 years.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 02:09 AM
I should add,

She told me, being with her ex allowed her to escape back to her early 20's when life was more care free, and the problems of having a 2nd child wasn't there. It was a fantasy, only meant to be short term, and she never at any time intended to hurt me.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 02:20 AM
Melody lane - you words she has weak boundaries around men scares me. I've never about it that way before.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
My WW works like I do. She rarely travels for work, but 2 months ago went interstate for work. In her words, fate hate has it that she bumps into her ex-boyfriend on the street. She said hi, and left it at that. As she works for a large corporation, he managed to figure out her email address and emailed to catch up for dinner. She agreed and told me it was an innocent catch up night and that was meant to be it. She didn't tell me at the time she caught up with her ex.

That is like saying I "innocently" went drunk driving. There is nothing "innocent" or appropriate about having dinner with an ex-lover. That is not how a woman with appropriate boundaries behaves. THIS IS THE BASIC PROBLEM.

Quote
I think the OM is very manipulative. She confided in him about our problems and he conveniently confided in her about his relationship of 7 years - about how he's about to break up with his partner.

If your wife had appropriate boundaries with men, he would not have been able to "manipulate" her. And the fact that she discusses her marriage with other men is another HUGE RED FLAG. More evidence of poor boundaries.

And secondly, I would wager this guy is either married or living with someone. That someone needs to be notified of the affair BY YOU. Without warning. Does this loser have a facebook page? I would see if you can find his spouse and tell her about the affair. Or call his house and see if a woman answers.

Quote
She has not sent him final letter, but has told him on the phone that she wants to be with me, and even if we divorce that she will never be with him. She has told me every time he's tried to contact - two times.

So apparently she has not ended contact at all. The fact that he still contacts her at all tells me SHE IS NOT SERIOUS ABOUT ENDING THE AFFAIR. If she is serious he will not be able to get through. Every time he contacts her puts her back to day 1 of recovery. Until contact really ends, this is hopeless. Recovery is impossible until all contact ends.

I would slip some spyware on her phone and a keylogger on her computer because I assure you this affair is not over.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 02:34 AM
Some good spyware for cell phones are:

eblaster
flexispy
mobilestealth

Some of these have built in GPS's.

a good keylogger for her computer is eblaster at spectorpro.com
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 04:00 AM
Melody lane,

This is a huge revelation! When I discovered the cheating, one of the first things she had to do was to cut off all contact, and secondly to let me know should he contact again. She has told me of 2 occasions when this has occurred. The first was an email that she forwarded to me but she told me she did not reply to. The 2nd time was a phone call, where she told him not to contact her again.

On her own accord, she has sworn on our child that she will never contact him again. Are you saying she could be lying even now?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Melody lane,

This is a huge revelation! When I discovered the cheating, one of the first things she had to do was to cut off all contact, and secondly to let me know should he contact again. She has told me of 2 occasions when this has occurred. The first was an email that she forwarded to me but she told me she did not reply to. The 2nd time was a phone call, where she told him not to contact her again.

On her own accord, she has sworn on our child that she will never contact him again. Are you saying she could be lying even now?

If an alcoholic swears he will "never drink again" would you have faith in his word? If so, I have some beachfront property to sell you! grin Letting you know when he contacts her misses the point entirely. He should not be allowed to contact her in the first place and if she were serious, she would shut down that avenue.

And you have no idea if she has been in contact unless you have a keylogger on her computers and spyware on her phone. Her word means nothing. If she decided to see him again, you would be the last person she would tell.

Did you HEAR the 2nd phone call with your own ears? If not, then you can just conclude that was a lie. A better way to end contact is for her to CHANGE HER phone # and email so he can't ever contact her in the FIRST PLACE and to send him a no contact letter that is written by her, approved by you and mailed by you.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent
here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 05:02 AM
Thanks melody. I got her to write a letter, but it has not been sent. I agree. It needs to be sent!
Posted By: imagine Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 06:08 AM
You need to check the letter first. I recommend that you send it to us first before it is transmitted to OM.

Read the Notes page for examples.
Posted By: TickyTock Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
On her own accord, she has sworn on our child that she will never contact him again. Are you saying she could be lying even now?

Just wanted to chime in here... my WH swore on each of our children, his grandfather (the man he has the utmost respect for), his own life, his father AND his mother that he wasn't contacting the OW. All while he was texting OW beautiful, loving, you're my true soul mate, mushy, gushy, my wife is a wench and I'm getting divorced any day now messages.

Could she be lying? OH YES!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 09:07 AM
Thanks tickytock. You've confirmed with melody not to be so trusting. I understand this now. Do you think my WW only told the 2 times the OM contacted her to make it believable that she has told him to go away? When in reality, she may have been communicating with the OM the whole time? I've had my suspicions as to how she's managed to go cold turkey and not talk to the OM, when prior to D-day she kept emailing him telling him how much she loved him.

She said to me just yesterday that there is no way she will jepeordise our one chance to salvage the marriage by lying to me and talking to the OM again. It so scares me that she is still prepared to risk everything.



I just ordered mobistealth. Having a few problems installing on her blackberry. Waiting for technical help.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 12:09 PM
I told my WW that she needs to send the OM a final letter to leave her alone. She had written a hand written letter that we discussed previously. Instead of being enthused to Re-type and email the OM the final letter, she unenthusiastially said, can't I just scan in the hand written one and send it as is?

What am I to make of this?

On another note, I am trying to figure out how to get the OM's home number to see if he has a partner. I have his mobile number, work number and work email. Any ideas anyone?

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
She said to me just yesterday that there is no way she will jepeordise our one chance to salvage the marriage by lying to me and talking to the OM again. It so scares me that she is still prepared to risk everything.

Talk is cheap when it comes to an affair. An affair is an addiction so words are meaningless.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
I told my WW that she needs to send the OM a final letter to leave her alone. She had written a hand written letter that we discussed previously. Instead of being enthused to Re-type and email the OM the final letter, she unenthusiastially said, can't I just scan in the hand written one and send it as is?

What am I to make of this?

Do you approve of the letter she wrote? If you do, there is no reason that won't work. The most important thing is that she cuts off his access to her completely. She needs to change her cell phone #, her email address, etc. to make SURE he can't get through.

What about facebook? Is she on facebook? That is another way that affairees communicate. I would also search her car for a secret 2nd phone.

Quote
On another note, I am trying to figure out how to get the OM's home number to see if he has a partner. I have his mobile number, work number and work email. Any ideas anyone?

Try googling him and getting a land line #. Do a whitepages.com and anywho.com search. If you can't get a phone you might be able to get an address and could drive there.
Posted By: TickyTock Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/04/11 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
She said to me just yesterday that there is no way she will jepeordise our one chance to salvage the marriage by lying to me and talking to the OM again. It so scares me that she is still prepared to risk everything.

I heard this, too. Affairs are so textbook, it's scary. It's like once someone makes the plunge to do it, they're all taken over by aliens reading from the same script, like some bad B movie.

Just remember, too, the AP is a drug to them, it really, really is an addiction. Same chemical reaction in the brain, I believe. Try telling a full blown alcoholic to stay away from alcohol. They can't, they need help. You need to help her stay away from her drug.

Listen to Melody, and all the other vets, they really do know what they're talking about.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:11 PM
Melody lane, ticktock, everyone,

You're all completely correct. I found some sort of evidence today that she was still in contact with him, and confronted her. She finally admitted it was the case.

I left the house.

I don't know what to do...............I still love her very much, but how can i go back to a person that is prepared to still lie to me?

We had a scheduled marriage counselling meeting the day after tomorrow. Should I go to it?

I want her back, but I don't. I don't know what to do. PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:28 PM
Cliffy: Hang in there. Breathe. It is very hard to hear this, but your wife is exhibiting very typical WS behavior.

The vets will chime in soon, but from being a member here for awhile and reading, reading, reading myself, you MUST expose the affair to kill it, because your wife has shown that she is not capable of doing it on her own. I will look for threads that talk about exposure, but the basics are to contact your close family and friends and seek their help in destroying the affair.

Sorry you are here, Cliffy. It's the worst club to belong to, but we all help each other get through it.

And I can attest to be DESTROYED by my FWH's affair, and we are steadily on the road to recovery. It can happen.

Breathe.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:37 PM
Thanks sweat pea. I really need tomhear your words and want to believe.

My WW's mum and dad live near by. I called, went over there and spoke to them tonight. They are devastated as expected. I've told my WW's brother and sister too.

I am trying to find the OM's Partners number so I can speak to her. She is going through it too. I want to expose all of this to the OM's family too, but it easy to find at the moment.

Should I attend the counseling?
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:41 PM
Cliffy: Here's a link to exposure

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2266646#Post2266646
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:48 PM
Cliffy:

Facebook is a great way to expose, too. Basically, you call upon family and friends to help you persuade your wife to do the right thing.

Don't get me wrong: Exposure will make her incredibly mad, if she's intent on keeping the affair going. But once she gets out of her wayward fog, she will understand that you needed help to kill the affair AND to keep her on the right patch in the future.

Counseling: Most vets on MB site dislike marriage counseling, because their vast experience has shown that some marriage counselors urge patients to "find themselves" and aren't experts at SAVING MARRIAGES.

That's what's so excellent about MBs. These techniques work. They kill the affair and RESTORE love through a very specific routine. Have you read up on the basic concepts. If not, please do.

However, that said. My FWH (formerly wayward husband) and I had individual counseling and marriage counseling, and all are EXCELLENT. Our goals were to not only save our marriage but build it so strong that something as horrible as this couldn't happend again, so none of them were in conflict with MB philosophies.

My FWH and I LOVED therapy. For me -- someone who felt like I'd been hit by a bus -- it really helped me heal. Regain my confidence after being so betrayed and hurt.

Once you're able to breath again, take control. Read the concepts and get ready for battle. Your marriage is worth saving, and the woman who is lying and cheating isn't the woman you married. Right now she's an alien.

But with a plan, you can get her back!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:54 PM
Cliffy: Great job on talking to WW's parents and sibling!!!

You're already working the MB's plan and didn't even know it.

But start being strategic: Ask them to HELP you get your wife back! As them and others to explain how damaging a divorce would be. And read on these forums about how it's quite likely that your wife's most basic emotional needs were not getting met, and with her poor boundaries, she turned to another man instead of telling YOU -- her dear husband -- what she needed.

Don't get me wrong: YOU didn't do anything to cause the affair, but when spouses aren't meeting each other's basic needs, cracks can form in your marriage armor. MBs will help you two figure out what you need from each other to form an incredibly unbreakable bond.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:56 PM
When you expose through facebook first cut and paste the OM contact lists so incase you get blocked for OM FB you will still have access to the contact info.

When contacting on FB do not send out more then one message per minute cause the FB site will block you. It will assume you are spamimng.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 01:59 PM
This is why a BS must trust and verify NC at the same time.
If you have not done so GPS WW car, gps cell phone, VAR in WW car and one in the home.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:05 PM
Thanks sweet pea. I can't see what tomorrow holds for me, let alone into future.............................
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:09 PM
Cliffy: As far as going to your marriage counseling appointment, I see no harm in it if you tell the therapist you have clear goals: killing the affair and restoring your marriage. Any deviations -- such as "trying to find oneself" is a waste of time.

However, many betrayed spouses -- such as myself -- believe that your WS's affair is the BIGGEST GET OUT OF JAIL free card for you, should you choose to use it. I didn't. Like you, I love my husband with all my heart. I spent a lot of time wondering, like you, how I could ever love someone so completely after the lies and, frankly, his having sex with someone else. I wondered if I should lower my standards to stay with a cheater, something I swore I would never do.

But FWH came around within five hours of me finding out. He realized that our marriage was paramount in his life and that he had nearly ruined. He took immediate steps (no contact letter that I approved and I sent), counseling, reading "Surviving an Affair," and everything I asked of him and more.

I can honestly tell you that he truly is the man, husband and father I thought I'd married seven years ago.

Your wife will-- the woman you LOVE! -- return to you, too, once
the horrible fog has lifted and she begins proving to you that she's worth it.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:14 PM
This is some great advice. I need to re-read the basic concepts.

I let her family know for the exact reason to wake her up! I hope it's not too late. When I left tonight, she just let me go without a fight. It was almost like she gave up, or knew I was leaving irrelevant of what I did?

Unlike d-day, she has not contacted me since either? What does this mean?

I know her parents are currently talking to her about it.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:14 PM
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cliffy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Those are hugs for you. I know exactly what you're feeling. I couldn't eat for three days, and barely ate anything for a week after I found out.

But you WILL get better. You will learn to breathe again, and the pain will lessen.

I know it helped me to read other people's stories. Made me feel like I wasn't alone. It also made me realize that my situation was bad, but not as bad as many out there.

Your WS has shown some remorse, so that's a good sign!

Now, get busy and kill that affair! Also: Get back into your house!!! I know you don't even want to look at her, but don't give her any more opportunity to conduct the affair than she already does. Plus it's your house. Get back there.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:18 PM
I need to get her to send the NC letter. I need to be sure she means it. How will I know this. Having now being betrayed twice, I don't know if I can believe anything anymore.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:22 PM
Cliffy:

This is the part that's tricky for me, 'cause I didn't have to do this because my wayward saw the light in five hours.

I believe most vets would advise you to do a Plan A: which is to be THE BEST INCREDIBLE HUSBAND you possibly can be while plotting to kill and actually killing the affair. This philosophy is to show your wayward what she's going to be missing should she (stupidly!) leave you.

You go home right now and tell her that you are IN THIS for the long haul! That you know that you had a hand in the crumbling of your marriage (not meeting each other's needs) and that you're willing to do whatever that takes -- including forgiving a CHEATER (as long as they clean up their side of the fence -- to be in a great marriage.

Because she has lied to you about stopping contact, she has forfeighted any oversight of your telling whomever you feel is necessary to kill the affair. (She'll likely be mad, but you tell her you are GOING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES to save your marriage. That she and your child mean that much to you! And guess what? She brought this shame upon herself; not you. You're just cleaning it up!)

She may be reluctant to call you right now because she could be worried that you might never forgive her or you'll throw the affair in her face. Reassure her that that's not what you want.

You want TRUE healing. You want a rock solid marriage. You want to safeguard this most valuable asset you have.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:25 PM
NC letter: YOU SEND IT!!!! She's basically ADDICTED to other man right now. And you would never give a bottle of alcohol to an alcoholic to put away.

I had my husband type it and watched as he sent it to POSOW (piece of sh$$ other woman).

She called him the next day at work, but he told her specifically she should never contact him again. It was over. He loves his wife.

So far, so good.

I hope more BS's whose waywards were harder to get out of fog will respond to help you.

Cliffy: This is a battle for your wife, your marriage, your family, your life.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:34 PM
Also: If you can, right this very minute go out and buy two copies of "Surviving an Affair." One for you and one for her.

IT SAVED MY SANITY!!!! And it showed my FWH what he needed to do to get his act together.

I read it in a day, and kept re-reading it for comfort (that I wasn't crazy, or too old, or too ugly or to whatever), and for strategy: specific steps to get my marriage back. Scratch that! To get a marriage that would never be susceptible to an affair. Ever. Again.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:36 PM
Sweat pea, you are worth a million dollars!

Thank you for the hugs. Your support is helping so much. She's just tried contacting me a few times begging me to come home.

I just spoke to her brother. He was there with her mom and dad. They REALLY woke her up it seems based on what he said.

Should I go home and talk to her?
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:40 PM
Yes! Absolutely. Tell her you are in it for the long haul.

But also be lovingly firm. You have standards, and she will meet them.

She is no longer in control of when/if OM contacts her. Change her phone, email, computer passwords. Etc.

Make her sit down and type a No Contact letter that YOU WILL SEND.

Do it by registered mail if you must.

If they continue to contact each other, the vets on here will give you more advice.

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:43 PM
Buy the books on the way home, if you can. You read it; make her read it.

If she's serious, she'll start cleaning up her side of the fence.

Her cakeeating days -- having you AND another man meet her needs -- are over! You deserve better!

Don't be a doormat. Fight for your marriage, if you decide you want to (but remember, she gave you Get Out of Jail Free card, should you decide to use it).
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:43 PM
Sucking in the deep breaths.

I want to go home. But....................

If she ever contacts him again, I think I will pack my bags with my child and not look back.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:48 PM
Cliffy:

Yeah! BREATHE! That's good.

You have every right to leave, should you decide. But, if your wayward get it together, that's the BEST result for you all.

Exposing the affair of a reluctant partner is a HUGE step in setting boundaries so that she won't contact the other man again. If all her family/friends know what she's done, she'll have no place to hide.

Plus, you might want to consider exposing OM to his work, if you think he used his job or work time to do personal -- and quite unsavory -- business. Plus, find out who his partner is. Expose to her, or at least to his friends on Facebook (using advice given above).

Expose him as the rat he is!!!

Go get her, Cliffy!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:51 PM
Thanks sweet pea.

I want to expose him. I know where he works. I want to contact his partner, but have not been able to find it on Facebook. He has a very common name.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:52 PM
Cliffy:

Don't be a doormat. Lovingly take charge. Your wife is incapable of handling her own affairs, and YOU will start the process of righting the ship, so to speak.

It REALLY sucks that we BSes have to do this! It's like a huge ironic slap in the face (they cheat and WE HAVE TO get the ball rolling on recovery, even though we're in agony?)

But keep your eye on the prize: the wife you married, the daughter you love, the marriage you valued.

My husband was worth me sucking it up, taking charge and putting us on the path to recovery.

And we're there! Or almost there. I'm still bruised from getting hit by the affair bus, but my casts are off and I'm hardly even limping any more. Look at me? I'm helping someone else? In the weeks after D-Day, I was paralyzed and could hardly think.

See? You can do this! So, can she. Just do it right. Read the plan, do the plan.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Thanks sweet pea.

I want to expose him. I know where he works. I want to contact his partner, but have not been able to find it on Facebook. He has a very common name.

So, send her a letter to their address. What a nice surprise THAT will be. Ha! (Besides, she has a right to know, too.)

Oh, and I do hope a vet will chime in on your plans to expose. I believe that your wife -- not matter WHAT she says when you next see her -- will tell you anything you want to hear, but not follow through. So, you should expose. However, I have seen threads where the couple jointly expose to friends and family as part of their strategy to keep wayward honest (i.e.: people know her weaknesses and will keep an eye on her, etc.).
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 02:57 PM
Cliffy: Is he a "friend" of your wife's on FB account, if she has one? You can search her friends list ...
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 03:05 PM
Cliffy: Also, your first post was about pain and forgiveness.

You, basically, have been in a False Recovery (FR) for four weeks while your wife has been gaslighting you (lying to you about OM, but trying to make you feel like she's not cheating any more).

You will be on a rollercoaster of emotions for some time. I hate to say it, but there could be more FRs ahead.

I believe the vets would advise you to Plan A (best husband EVER!) right now as you establish recovery standards and etc., then expose and then deal with the exposure aftermath (anger, etc; unless she agrees to jointly expose with you to friends/family).

Only then can the real recovery begin. Vets: Please correct if you think this isn't solid advice!

Hugs,
Sweetpea
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Thanks sweet pea.

I want to expose him. I know where he works. I want to contact his partner, but have not been able to find it on Facebook. He has a very common name.

Cliffy, can you find his home address? What about a landline?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 03:11 PM
Good job, sweetpea! Yes, you are right, Plan A is warrranted. And exposure is part of Plan A. Thanks for keeping him on track, sweetpea! smile

Cliffy, sweetpea is right, you should go home. If anyone leaves it should be HER. Go home, sit her down and DEMAND that she end her affair for life. Tell her she will have to prove to you that all contact is over by changing her phone # and email # and giving you access to all.

But please try and find the OM's GF or wife and notify her. Even if you have to drive to his house, it would be worth it.

I would not go to counseling because that can cause your marriage great harm. Marriage counselors do not understand the foggy mindset of a wayward and as such, counsel them based on current feelings. Since they have no idea how to save marriages, you would be better off going out to dinner together or gettting a pedicure.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 04:17 PM
Hi melody lane,

Thanks for your advice.

My WW isn't IT savvy and does not have fb. Wish it was that easy. I don't have a home address for him.

Any other ideas?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 04:20 PM
Two words: Private Investigator.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 04:26 PM
Cliffy, MB is right, a PI can probably find this guy quickly for about $300. Have you tried googling him? What methods have you tried in your search?
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 05:25 PM
Here is the NC Letter. Thoughts?

..............................................

OM,

this is the very last time I'm going to ask that you STOP contacting me. You don't seem to get the message. You keep promising to not contact me and then you do.
You have completely f****d up my life. By contacting me again you have really put the nail in the coffin.ļæ½

SO FOR THE LAST TIME, STOP F*****G CONTACTING ME. LEAVE ME ALONE, YOU'VE DONE ENOUGH DAMAGE TOļæ½LAST 10 LIFETIMES!!!!

You don't know howļæ½many people who I love, whoļæ½we have hurt, who I have hurt by my stupid affair with you. husband, Daughter, my Mum, my Dad, Brother and Sister.

They are all hurting and suffering because of us. I hope you choke on the guilt like I am. What we did was so shameful, so selfish, so reckless, so disgusting and so utterly stupid!

We will rot in Hell because of it.

I hope by now you've realised that what we did was a huge mistake. My act of betrayal to Husband, my husband of 13 long loving years was and still is unforgivable. I have hurt Husband deeply, to his very core of existence. What we did for 2 months has completely destroyed the foundations of my marriage.

I keep thinking that if I had never bumped into you in the street in [city] I wouldn't be in this nightmare that I'm in at the moment. One which I'll never wake from. If you hadn't emailed me and try and communicate with me until I broke my resolve, none of this would be happening. IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! But I also have come to the realisation that although fate played a small part, ultimately I had choices, and I chose the wrong ones for whatever reason or excuse I thought I had. And I know whatever excuse I had did not for 1 minute justify our affair.ļæ½

I want you to know that I only love Husband. I chose him over you 15 years ago and I'm chosing him again now. Although for me it was never really a choice. You know deep down I would never have left him to be with you. Even if Husband decides to leave me, I will never be with you. I would always look at you and remember that you are the cause of my marriage breakup and I would always blame you for it, for our stupid affair. Blaming you too for whatever becomes of Daughter. If Daughter grows up without her mummy, you will have that on your conscience for the rest of your life, as I'll have it on mine. I don't know how I'm going to live without the 2 most important Loves of my life- my husband and my daughter.

SO AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME, DO NOT EVER CONTACT AGAIN. YOU'VE CAUSED ENOUGH GRIEF TO MY WHOLE FAMILY.

WW
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 05:26 PM
Go with it! She wrote that?
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 05:32 PM
Yep. I think she has woken up after her mom and dad almost literally disowned her for what she's done.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 05:33 PM
Is it a good letter
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 08:08 PM
Like Melodylane said, "Go with it"

Your WW wrote that and it's a good letter. If you agree with everything then send it off.
Posted By: Bryanp Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 09:46 PM
Cliffy,

You said she was in contact with him again. Do you know if she has been in physical contact again since the time you both were tested for STD's?

Hopefully the talk with the parents will help her get out of the fog. On the other hand, she should be really committed to recover and seriously remorseful for what she has done. You don't want her to stay if she is only doing this to please her parents. I wish you luck.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Is it a good letter

Agreed, Cliffy. She's finally waking up. Sorry I had to duck out, but we had company over for labor day.

OK, now the NC letter is written, hopefully sent. That's a GREAT first step.

What are your next steps? Read the Basic Principles on this forum, and/or go buy the book "Surviving an Affair."

Keep moving forward, not backward. Figure out what emotional needs you BOTH need to meet for each other to be fully committed. THen figure out what precautions she needs to meet to safeguard your marriage!

Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/05/11 11:33 PM
Thanks sweet pea.

I have told her to change her mobile number and change her email address.

Have read basic principles and will go out today to buy surviving an affair. I ordered it online a few days but have not heard back, so will just go out and get a copy.

I am still so angry she lied to me again. She finally revealed more when I went home and faced her.

She believed that i could see all of her phone calls and SMS's. She told me, 2 days after D-day she warned OM to not take her calls just in case it was me ringing from her phone? Am I right that she still cares for him and wants to protect him.

I hope after the NC letter that it is the start of recovery. But there is so much deceit and lies, I don't know what to believe anymore.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 01:07 AM
Quote
I have told her to change her mobile number and change her email address.
Change these for her. Don't wait for her to do it. Do it now.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 01:22 AM
Thanks marital bliss.

The NC letter has been sent. She is in the process of changing phone and email now.

She wants to move on and keeps telling me, but how can I believe her?
Posted By: Surfer88 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 03:51 AM
Believe her? You can't, nor should you. Makes no difference.

There is no "moving on and forgetting". There is moving forward. You both are taking steps to move forward! Great! It'll take EFFORT and planning to fall in love again. Just like you did when you first met.

One thing you'll have to commit to is at least 20 hours of UA time each week. Have you planned that out? Exactly?
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 11:23 AM
Yep. Going Plan A, and went through the 10 basic concepts.

We're doing the emotional needs questionnaire now.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 01:31 PM
Cliffy: Great work! I know it's really hard. I have been where you are, and you will feel every kind of emotion for the next several months.

Surfer88 is right. You will not forget, nor should you. Your WS, like mine, has bad boundaries. You will have to be vigilant for the rest of your life. Why? We're all susceptible to affairs; ours obviously took the bait. We ALL need to take steps to ensure that our marriages stay strong. EPs, undivided attention hours every week, honesty and openness, meeting each others emotional needs will create an unbreakable bond for your two.

And the wonderful thing is: you'll be happy. Both of you. My FWH is. I am (95% of the time, and I know I'll get to 100% eventually).

But I'm ever vigilant, and I don't hesitate to remind FWH is I think we're -- or he is slipping.

Don't fear the ups and downs of the roller coaster you are on. Keep your eye on the end (a successful, safe and happy marriage) and you'll handle it fine. Oh, and don't forget to breathe. Deep, deep breaths.

Great work Cliffy! OK, gotta get to work. Best of luck and I'll try to check in this evening.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 10:08 PM
Thanks sweat pea.

Last night was huge leap for us. Doing questionnaire solidified what we each had to focus on meet each others emotional needs. We plan to do it again in a months time.

It is really hard. I am still waking up in the middle of the night and unable to fall back asleep. I still think about what she did, but am really focused on love bank deposits.

She has been given a second chance. If after everything we're now trying and she still breaks it, I think plan B is the only way.

Breathing!
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 10:55 PM
we review our needs weekly, and modify if necessary.

any way she would to online program or call for personal coaching with jennifer and/or steve? it has really help us get thru this and keeps us on track.

if she is so receptive why not suggest it?
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/06/11 11:44 PM
That's excellent work, Cliffy. And Chickadee's recommendations are wonderful, too. I loved therapy, and I think the Harveys would be awesome to work with.

RE: your waking up at night, feeling horrible. Sad to say, but there's no easy fix to that. But your wife meeting YOUR needs and making love deposits into your account will help.

Her showing true remorse and sticking to the plan will, too.

But I can't tell you how many sleepless nights and agonizing moments I had during recovery.

But I'm much, much, much better now. 95% there. I am facing D-Day anniversaries this month and for the next several weeks. I feel that once I get through those, I'll be better.

Nice work, Cliffy. Give yourself a big pat on the back. And in addition to breathing, try to get some exercise. It really helped -- and many other BSes -- achieve a better balance!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 01:48 AM
Hi everyone,

I need help. My wife is in the process of changing her email and SMS, but he is still contacting her, and she is showing me every time.

We are not responding.

What else can I do. I want to expose the OM to his spouse, but have been unable to obtain the required details so far.
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 02:10 AM
ceist anad desist letter. very scary! document all of the contacts. bring them to a lawyer it take minutes to have them write a letter

it also take 2 second to delete an email, is it a work email? is that the problem?

expose the spouse. do you know where they live? google the adress in quotes in some citys it tells you the owners name and last purchase price.

what have you done to find her? do you know her name?

i found all of the bimbos in less than 3 minutes.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 02:55 PM
Cliffy:

It's time to likely hire a private detective, or cease and desist letter that Chickadee mentions. Finding out who his partner is is vital. Doesn't your wife know who it is?

Or, you may feel the need to go to his place of employment (because you know where he works) or call him there and tell him to knock it the frack off or you will expose his affair throughout his company or neighborhood or whatever.

OR maybe you should print up a flyer with his name, picture on it that says in HUGE TYPE: This CREEP SLEPT WITH MY WIFE, SO DON'T TRUST HIM and slip it onto his car windshield with a note that says: Stop harassing my wife or you'll find these all over your office and your neighborhood.

You can't be sued for liable if what you're printing is true!

Thoughts?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Hi everyone,

I need help. My wife is in the process of changing her email and SMS, but he is still contacting her, and she is showing me every time.

We are not responding.

What else can I do. I want to expose the OM to his spouse, but have been unable to obtain the required details so far.

Cliff, she has to change her numbers now so he can't get through. The fact that she is showing it to you is meaningless. Do you have access to her phone and know everything she receives?

If she can't change the phone # today, I would exchange phones with her until you can.

And I would stay on finding the OMW until you succeed.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 03:48 PM
Time for you to step in and protect your wife.
Confront him.
Tell him that you are aware of every attempt at contact. That you and your wife are on the same page and he will be charged with harassment if it continues.
Melody Lane will be along shortly with her "Hell's coming with me" video!
Man up Cliffy.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 03:54 PM
Cliffy:

Melody Lane is an awesome adviser!!!! Do as she says. Muster all the energy you have for this battle. You are worth it. Your marriage is worth it, and it will save you plenty of heartache in the future if you do.

I LOVE Lexxxy's advice to confront him (phone or in person). Doesn't mean you have to be all Incredible Hulk crazy, but lay down the law, or get the REAL law on your side and make his dirty, shameful behavior PART OF THE PUBLIC RECORD!

You can do this, Cliffy! In fact, you NEED to do this, Cliffy. Your wife doesn't have the willpower yet, so she needs you to dig deep into that well of strength you have and do what it takes.

We'll help you! What do you need from us?
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 09:47 PM
Hi everyone,

We have been working on us. Meeting emotional needs and following the basic concepts. I have stuck to my guns depositing love credits, without withdrawals. It is hard, but I can see it is working.

BTW - the OM thought I wrote the NC letter, when it was all my wife! Either she has not totally told him to g away, or the OM is in denial hoping it's not true. My real feeling it's a bit of both.

I want to expose the OM. I am tracking my wife's movements with a GPS, and can get access to phone/SMS info. Not email yet.

The major concern is the community I live in. Word spreads. Her family have been awesome and 2 days ago helped her, 'really' wake up. An ultimatum was put to her by her family. If she ever contact him again, not only would I levee, but they would dis-own her. I can see this really really scared her and woke her up as she is very close to her mum and sister in particular.

My concern is, by exposing the OM via his family (or even the OM's Partner), this will lead to permanent pain and damange for my WW's family. They don't deserve this. My WW deserves to feel the pain, but her family doesn't.

I am thnking about waiting to see what the OM does after my WW changes her mobile and email address in the next few days. If he still somehow finds a way to contact, then I will take the next step to go legal and maybe expose him?

Thoughts?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
My concern is, by exposing the OM via his family (or even the OM's Partner), this will lead to permanent pain and damange for my WW's family. They don't deserve this. My WW deserves to feel the pain, but her family doesn't.

huh? crazy How could telling them "hurt them?" I am not following your logic. If you neighbor is a cat burglar or a child molestor would you not inform his family because it would "hurt them?"

His family will be harmed by his adultery, not hearing the truth. Telling them the truth will help them and him because the more people who know, the more people to hold him accountable. Of course they deserve the truth.

You should expose him NOW. Don't wait until until he successfully hooks up. Run the SOB off. NOW.

how is the OM able to get anything through if contact has been cut off?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 09:59 PM
Do you have his family's contact info? I would expose this affair and then go have a come to Jesus with this loser. Run him off!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 10:17 PM
As it is a small community and exposure like this would spread like wildfire! My WW's family will be caught in the crossfire. Face, recognition, standing in the community will be totally damaged as a result. I've seen it happen to others. It can get very nasty when everyone is talking behind your back. It's never the same again. I don't want to put my WW's family through this, as they don't deserve it.

I do want to the OM to feel pain though, but at what cost? This is my quandary.

Are you all saying that my WW after changing her phone and email, will still stray?

If she does, she knows she will lose not only me, my daughter, but her family too? She will still be prepared to risk it all?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
As it is a small community and exposure like this would spread like wildfire! My WW's family will be caught in the crossfire. Face, recognition, standing in the community will be totally damaged as a result. I've seen it happen to others. It can get very nasty when everyone is talking behind your back. It's never the same again. I don't want to put my WW's family through this, as they don't deserve it.

I do want to the OM to feel pain though, but at what cost? This is my quandary.

Are you all saying that my WW after changing her phone and email, will still stray?

If she does, she knows she will lose not only me, my daughter, but her family too? She will still be prepared to risk it all?

When there are no consequences the chance of the affair restarting and or new affairs are to high to not expose.

So you might as well divorce now because you are making the odds for an unsucessful recovery good. Why face another Dday?

Exposure does more then get revenge on the OM and make you feel good. It does these things but this is not the purpose for exposure.

Exposure brings people, friends, family that will hold WW acountable and the same with the OM.

The way it's good that you and WW parents are keeping an eye on WW. Exposure will place extra eyes on OM to maintain NC.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
As it is a small community and exposure like this would spread like wildfire! My WW's family will be caught in the crossfire. Face, recognition, standing in the community will be totally damaged as a result. I've seen it happen to others. It can get very nasty when everyone is talking behind your back. It's never the same again. I don't want to put my WW's family through this, as they don't deserve it

You are making a huge mistake protecting them from the consequences of their affair. You don't understand the value of exposure and are wrongly viewing it as damaging. Exposure is not damaging, it is HEALTHY AND THERAPEUTIC. Adultery and lies are damaging, not exposure. If they are gossiped about, that is a consequence of their affair. Why, in God's name, would you protect them from that? You are harming them both by helping them hide the affair.

There is nothing wrong with "exposure spreading like wildfire;" that is a good thing for ALL. Not only does it help the affairees wake up, but the result is more people to hold them accountable. Don't deprive them of that valuable lesson.

By helping them hide the secret, you are enabling this affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, after all.

IF YOU LIVE IN A SMALL COMMUNITY THEN HOW COME YOU CAN'T FIND THE OM'S GF?? I don't understand!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 10:58 PM
Dear OM's family,

It is with great regret that I send this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Joe Scumbag is having an affair with my wife, Sue. We have been married for 5 years and have 3 heartbroken children. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Joe to persuade him to leave my wife alone. You should also watch your own wives around him because he is no friend to marriage.

Please contact me at XXX-XXX-XXXX if you have any questions, comments.

BH
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
On another note, I am trying to figure out how to get the OM's home number to see if he has a partner. I have his mobile number, work number and work email. Any ideas anyone?

If this is a small community, how come you can't find his wife or home address?
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 11:00 PM
Quote
If she does, she knows she will lose not only me, my daughter, but her family too? She will still be prepared to risk it all?
She chose to risk it once already, correct?

Expose this and shut this thing down.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/07/11 11:43 PM
EXPOSURE HAS KILLED THOUSANDS OF AFFAIRS ...

IF YOU WANT THIS TO BE OVER WITH --- EXPOSE AND SHE CAN BE YOURS.

RIGHT NOW SHE IS HIS - CAN YOU EXPOSE AND MAKE HER YOURS?

EVEN IF SHE IS SUPER PIZZED AT LEAST SHE WILL BE YOURS AND NOT HIS.

EXPOSE - EXPOSE - EXPOSE - EXPOSE - EXPOSE!!!!
Posted By: TickyTock Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 12:51 AM
You have to expose, you really do.

So what if everyone is talking about it? Put another spin on it... everyone talks, they know about it. But they will also know that you did everything you could to save your marriage and stand up for yourself. Expose, walk tall and stand proud.

Besides, if the town is that small, they *already* know, they're just wondering what you're going to do about it.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 02:20 AM
Thanks for the words everyone. I understand.

Just to clarify a point: the small community that I live in includes my WW's family, the OM's family and my family. The OM and his partner/girlfriend actually lives over 500 miles away in another city. That's why it's harder to find details about him. He has blocked me on Facebook, but I have found him via another login. I think I have found details of his Partner, but I am not 100% sure it is her.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 03:55 AM
Cliff, in that case it is even more important that you expose to his family unless you want sit by silently in the future when the OM comes for a visit. By telling his family you not only kill the affair but keep it killed. Killing the affair is a good thing that should not be avoided over a little embarrassment. Exposure is a good and positive thing for all. Just because something is embarrassing does not means it's bad.

Have you been able to reach his wife yet?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 03:56 AM
P.s. I would copy all his friends into a word doc for safekeeping.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 04:07 AM
Cliffy:

I realize this is a tough pill to swallow. But if you want him out of your life exposing to his spouse/GF is a must. So, too, to his family. I like ML's suggestion of copy/pasting his FB friends list for safekeeping. More ammo should he not stop.

How do you know he thinks YOU wrote the letter? Have you corresponded with him? Talked to him?

Brace you WW's parents for exposure. Prepare them for the wagging of tongues. You know, I grew up in a very small town, too, so I know what the deal is. But guess what? People probably already are talking. No one in a small town can keep an affair secret for two months without someone seeing/noticing something.

Think of it as cleansing, as ML suggests.

And keep breathing. You will survive this. And so will your family. Better to have affair KILLED than a messy divorce for people to talk about, right?

Good luck, Cliffy!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 02:34 PM
Cliffy: I'm a little worried that you haven't posted for awhile.

How are you doing? How's your hunt for low life's spouse/girlfriend going? Has he stopped the harassment?

Maybe you just needed a little mental break? If so, don't tarry long. Get that EVIL POSOM (piece of s$it other man) out of your life for good!

Cheers,
Sweet

Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/08/11 10:38 PM
Thanks sweat pea. Still going. Try to do Plan A whilst holding back the pain that is still clearly inside. Trying to move love deposits and not withdrawals.

Still doing some digging. The POSOM's partner has not responded to me yet.
Posted By: Reynolds531 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 03:20 AM
Exposure to OMW killed my wifes affair in about ten minutes.

That really is step one. It sucks doing it, but trust me if it works for you like it did us, you will NOT regret it!

Good luck
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 06:20 AM
Thanks Reynolds. Trying to get there now. When will I stop feeling like I'm on tenterhooks all the time!
Posted By: chickadee1 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 04:46 PM
what the update? what is going on with the email address is it closed?
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Thanks Reynolds. Trying to get there now. When will I stop feeling like I'm on tenterhooks all the time!

Feeling on tenderhooks? For a long, long, long time. But if you follow the plan -- 10-15 hours of UA time, meeting your ENs and maintaining EPs, eventually you'll start to feel better. Honestly, it's true!

Cliffy: You've done great work so far. How is your wife doing?

Would love to hear about success in exposure. Has the OM stopped emailing?

Hugs,
Sweet
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 09:28 PM
Hi everyone,

My WW has changed her email, but they still diverted her old email to her new one! in the process of stop the diversion and canceling the email altogether.

The mobile number is in the process of being changed now.

I have yet exposed the OM to his family, but am planning to do so.

I have a few questions for everyone. How does exposing the OM to his family and partner stop him contacting my WW? Others have told me that it could work the other way for 2 reasons.

He may be somewhat delusional in that no matter how he is exposed he will still try to contact my WW without fear. This means even exposing to his family would not be able to stop him.

He may not love his Partner anymore and actually wants to be with my WW.
From emails I have seen from him since D-day, this seems to be the case, and by his Partner knowing (and leaving), may give him the ability to pursue my WW without concern.

The OM (after d-day) asked my wife if she wanted to be with him should one day she is single (ie. I leave). She told him she will only be with me, and if I decided to leave, she will never be with him. Knowing how important family is my WW, the OM had the balls to add "will you be with me even though your family will never approve of this". I am concerned that exposure will not work anywhere near as effectively?

I need to make it clear that my WW has made no contactbsince the second D-day (5 days ago). I am tracking everything!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 09:32 PM
The OM has only responsed to the NC Letter once and nothing else. This was 5 days ago. He thought I wrote it for 2 reasons I think. He does not want to believe the contents of the letter ( denial). And secondly, even though my WW had told him to stop contacting before the NC letter, it clearly wasn't firm enough.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 10:09 PM
When you expose to OM's side, don't EXPECT it to stop OM from contacting your WW. The only thing it is for is to KILL the A dead, from ALL sides. This way, OMs friends/family will put pressure on him and make him see that your WW isn't worth the trouble.

If one of my sons was an OM, I would TELL him what I thought. There would definitely be some consequences.

Do it because it is the right thing to do and it is part of the steps. If you are willing to cut corners this soon, what that says about your recovery isn't very good.

And those other people who are telling you not to expose OM, how many marriages have they saved from infidelity exactly?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
I have a few questions for everyone. How does exposing the OM to his family and partner stop him contacting my WW? Others have told me that it could work the other way for 2 reasons.

Sorry, but others are wrong. Exposing is the most potent weapon against an affair becuase mold does not grow well in sunlight. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it gives it the cold splash of reality. Exposing to the OM's family means more people will be watching and more people persuading him to end his affair. You want his parents speaking to him to persuade him to stop his affair.

And the more people who know the more people to hold him accountable. It also ruins any future hope for the affair if they know. Lets say your WW wanted to move in with the OM, she would have second thoughts becuase she would know there is no future for her in the OM family. Most families won't tolerate an affair.

While exposure is no guarantee, I will tell you it is your most potent weapon against the affair and that the majority of us here in recovered marriages, exposed the affair. Dr Harley seems to have saved one or two marriages over his successful 40 year career and here is what he says about the benefits of exposure:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."
here

Quote
He may be somewhat delusional in that no matter how he is exposed he will still try to contact my WW without fear. This means even exposing to his family would not be able to stop him.

It is up to your wife to ensure he doesn't get through, not the OM's family. That is her job. If he can get through that means she is not seriously blocking him and needs to plug the whole. And so what if he does get through? I am not following you on how that would negate the effects of exposure.

Quote
He may not love his Partner anymore and actually wants to be with my WW.
From emails I have seen from him since D-day, this seems to be the case, and by his Partner knowing (and leaving), may give him the ability to pursue my WW without concern.

Please stop this. If he wanted to leave and be with your WW he would, wouldn't he? Just because he told your wife he was not "in love" with his wife means nothing more than he said what was needed to get some nookie. THEY ALL SAY THAT.

The OM cannot "pursue your WW without concern" if she won't let him through.

Cliff, I am very concerned that you are in paralysis analysis and as such, are now conjuring up excuses to not do something because you are afraid. I can understand that you are afraid. We all were. But you don't have the luxury to put fear before action. This is not rocket science. There is absolutely no downside to exposure. Just do it my friend!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
He may not love his Partner anymore and actually wants to be with my WW.
From emails I have seen from him since D-day, this seems to be the case, and by his Partner knowing (and leaving), may give him the ability to pursue my WW without concern.

ARe you kidding me? You honestly believe he was honest with your wife about his relationship? I assure you he was not. And so what if his partner leaves? That is not relevant to your situation. If your wife wanted to leave she would leave to be with him if he wanted her.

Which is more likely to happen if you don't expose the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so protecting its secret from his wife and his parents only serves to enable the affair.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/09/11 10:45 PM
Cliffy,

PLEASE listen to Mel, Marital, etc. and expose. Read my thread...I hemmed and hawed -- what good would exposing OMs family, employer make? It is up to my W to end the A, ensure NC.

Well, how wrong I was. I was 'enlightenend' once OMs mom called ME to discuss my WS's behavior, the affair, her precious boy...read my thread for her responses...as Mel said, I think, it ended -- immediately -- any thoughts of my W being invited to their next family picnic.

It wasn't perfect, but exposing to OMs family did the trick.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/10/11 12:33 AM
{/quote] I need help. My wife is in the process of changing her email and SMS, but he is still contacting her, and she is showing me every time. [/quote]

{/quote] The OM has only responsed to the NC Letter once and nothing else. This was 5 days ago. [/quote]

Cliffy: Take a deep breath again. Here's what you wrote to us within days of each other. They are in conflict. You don't have to burn the world down and expose him to everyone you know. Start with his parents. You know them. Ask them to exert influence for their son to do the right thing and stop his evil ways. Get to his spouse/partner. That should start the ball rolling.

Melody and Mel know what they are talking about. Waywards lie ALL THE TIME to their affair partners. It's part of their fantasy of making their "real" lives horrible so it allows them to have their affairs. His wife/girlfriend probably doesn't know a thing. And she deserves to know what a jerk she's married to/involved with.

Yes, it's scary, but don't let this scum bucket get away with trying to steal your wife and wreck your home.

Cliffy: You've done amazing work so far. Without proper killing of affairs, False Recoveries have occurred years after BSes thought affairs had ended. Read the threads. You'll be horrified. Don't become one of them.

Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/10/11 12:35 AM
Quote
I have yet exposed the OM to his family, but am planning to do so.
Don't plan it. Just DO it.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/12/11 06:04 PM
Cliffy:

How are you doing? Still taking those deep breaths? Meeting each others' needs?

Hope so!

Cheers,
Sweetpea
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/13/11 09:22 PM
Hi swaetpea. Trying to. We've put priority on meeting EN's. I saw on your post about the anniversary of your d-day. Does it get a bit better every day / year? Do you still think about the pain from time to time?

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/13/11 10:27 PM
Hey, Cliffy! Glad to see you back. Working on emotional needs is a great way to build up that love bank. Extraordinary precautions will help you feel safer about your wife's actions, too. Make sure you get a list of those going. Get those safeguards up and tight.

Yeah, the anniversary of his affair is Sept. 24. I didn't find out until November, but now that I know that's the night it started, it bugs me.

The pain is not the same anymore. I still think about FWH's affair every day, several times a day. But I'm no longer despondent about it. I got really good advice about tackling these "trigger" days, and I've already told my FWH about my feelings and how I'm hoping we can get through them. He's totally on board.

I'm hoping that two years out, I won't even need to ask him to help me through them.

I would say it took me six months not to feel like I was going to cry every time I thought about him being with and pursuing the POSOW.

But I'm better now. That's the honest truth! (But I did go through months of therapy to help me regain my sanity and confidence. I highly recommend it.)

Take each day as it comes. Talk, talk, talk, talk with your wife. Work the Marriage Builders plan.

Getting that UA time with each other?
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/14/11 01:33 AM
Sweat pea,

Knowing that you are getting through it, gives me real hope! I need as much hope as I can get at the moment.

Thanks. I'd really like to thank everyone for their help to date, but in particular you. YOU HAVE MADE A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE TO MY LIFE! So thank you again.
Posted By: BillCarolina Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/14/11 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
The pain is not the same anymore. I still think about FWH's affair every day, several times a day. But I'm no longer despondent about it. I got really good advice about tackling these "trigger" days...

Care to share that advice.......I used to think about my WW about 95% of my waking hours.......I'm down to 85% lately.. crazy

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/14/11 03:02 PM
Sure, Bill: Go to the RECOVERY thread. I posted a topic: D-Day anniversary on my mind.

But I think our situations are pretty different. My FWH figured out he wanted our marriage over infidelity within a few hours of exposure. And he and I worked diligently on healing through Marriage Builders and individual therapy.

Bill: I know many of the vets don't like marriage counselors here (because they distract, etc.), but I found my individual counselor INVALUABLE. She really helped me focus on my goals to regain my self confidence and to heal my shattered heart.

She often told me that I was "reading the same book" out of the library in my head. It was one that was FWH screwing POSOW, and his hundreds of emails and phone calls to her. She helped me change my behavior to put that book away and take out another one, a new book that would help me build my confidence.

So, I strongly recommend individual counseling. Oh, and yoga. I know guys shy away from this kind of stuff, but focused, concentration on your breathing and body -- because unlike what you think, yoga is REALLY HARD physically -- is a great way to put your mind into another realm.

Hope that helps a bit, Bill!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/14/11 03:09 PM
Back to Cliffy!!!

Isn't this forum the best?!!?!?!?!? Now, back to work.

Cliffy: How is your wife doing? Is she still getting calls from the other man?

Don't be afraid to snoop. Really, at this point it's not snooping. Being open and honest means total access, and you have that right. Both of you do.

You said you're working on emotional needs lists. Can you offer it, so we can help you refine it and talk about it with your wife? I know, sounds like drudgery, but these specific concrete steps will help YOU and HER.

Glad to see you haven't given up on us, Cliffy!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/16/11 10:42 AM
Hi sweat pea,

Not been on the website for a few days. Been working on us. Must be a good sign that we're on track! At least me for sure any way.

My WW has changed both her email and phone. This has given me a lot comfort. I am still tracking her movements via a gps device.

I am also tracking her calls and SMS's too.

So no calls or communication.

Will post my emotional needs shortly. In short, trying to work on love deposits instead of withdrawals.

The only hard thing I have is still feeling that she owes me something for what she's done. It's almost like she needs to do things to show me that she truly sorry and remorseful for what she's done. Is this fair that i ask her to odo this?
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/16/11 12:15 PM
Cliffy:

Glad to hear the calls and communication have stopped.

Your wife does owe you something: she owes you Just Compensation from her affair. I'll find a link to the article that discusses it.

You also must tell her that, because of the crushed state you're in, you need reassurances from her that she will hold up to her end of the bargain:

1) No contact with former lover
2) She should write down a list of Extraordinary Precautions she will take from now on to safeguard your marriage.
3) She will radically honest about her past, her present and her future.
4) She will spend 15-20 hours of time with you each week.
5) She will be honest about her emotional needs, letting you know when you meet them.

I told my FWH that I NEEDED him to reassure me ALL THE TIME, that he loved ME (not her) and that our marriage was his ONLY FOCUS.

It took about a two weeks before I let him hold my hand again, and about another six weeks for us to rejoin the marital bed. And even then, it was not good for me for about a month. The thoughts of them together kept invading.

But it does get better.

OK, I'm off to hunt for the just compensation article.

(P.S.: In addition to emtional needs list, I get the feeling that you've decided not to expose further, beyond those you've already done. I'll post more later, but even though my FWH stopped all contact right away, and I only exposed to a few key people, I WISH I had exposed a little more broadly. Primarily for MY SAKE. Meaning, I felt like I was living a double life at times, because I was dying inside, and everyone I worked with and most people I hung out with, didn't know a thing. Interestingly, we've recently exposed to friends lately, who have been super, super supportive. We felt compelled, because we saw their relationships heading toward the rocks. And armed with this knowledge, we felt MB's strategy would really help. ANd I sure wish I'd had their support during the darkest days of my recovery, too, instead of nearly a year later.)

OK, now REALLY I'm off to find article!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/16/11 01:34 PM
Cliffy:

Here's the link to Dr. Harvey's thoughts on forgiveness, which talks about "just compensation."

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Let me know what you think. Also: Get those Emotional Needs lists -- yours and your wife's up soon. You really need to start hitting those to restore the love.

Cheers,
Sweetpea
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/16/11 02:01 PM
Hey there Cliffy Boy:

You are in the drivers seat and you just dont know it. It appears that your wife is remorseful which is somewhat rare on these boards and youve done a nice job heretofore.

Undivided Attention and Conversation are the keys to success.

Give it, get it and things will get back on track. OM was a brief indulgence and although its a brutal whack to your feelings, understand it is killing your wife equally.

When my wife gets home from work (i work out of the house), we sit face to face and I let her tell me everything she did that day. I create conversation and show interest in her words. Something I never did and I know OM was real good at. Even though I spend little time these days thinking about the A, I do wonder just what it was they spoke about all the time. Could he possibly have any interest in her thoughts? I doubt it. He did what most creeps do, he faked interest to get into her pants. I know it, he knows it, and my wife certainly knows.

And from those conversations she and I have, SF for both us emerges. I swear its true. Its one of the best kept secrets in successful marriages.

I take a lot of comfort knowing my W did not seek SF from him. That was his need. Im sure its the same for your wife and her guy. I now understand my wife got herself trapped in the A and although no gun or chains kept her there, an element of fear and complacency were certainly 2 big factors locking her in. I have no other way to understand it. Really, though, theres no reason but another dude showed her attention and she bit. Simple and stupid, actually.

Stay the course and recovery become easier every day.

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/18/11 12:37 PM
Hey, Cliffy:

What's up? Wondering how you're doing. I know. Real life is probably getting in the way, and you're probably just trying to hang on by your fingertips.

So, let Marriage Builders help you heal your self and your marriage.

Let's take some concrete steps -- today -- to get you some measure of self confidence and positive strategy toward the healing of your marriage.

1) Please post your and your WW's top five emotional needs and explain a little bit about why each is important to you. Then, tell us how you're both trying to meet them.

2) Please list the Extraordinary Precautions your wife PROMISES she will do to safeguard your marriage and not allow herself to have another affair.

3) Tell me about your week, and how did you get your 15+ hours of Undivided Attention together to start bonding again.

Cliffy: These steps are not optional. You really must spend the time together, and you really must meet each others' needs and she really must put those boundaries in place.

Taking action will help you recover, and guess what? It will help you, many weeks down the road, finally learn to forgive your wife.

Cheers,
Sweetpea

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/19/11 01:49 PM
Cliffy:

Hey, buddy. Where are you? I'm worried and would like to continue helping you.

I'm not sure what's going on, but if you're still having troubles, please come back and post. You will find that many people have trouble implementing this program, and we ALL need a ton of support to make it work correctly.

Really, you are among friends here, and we WILL help you get through this, even if you're having false recoveries.

Sincerely,
Sweetpea
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 12:58 PM
Thanks for your words miekstillsmiling. It's hard, but I'm trying everyday. I am really trying to focus on meeting emotional needs.

My WW needs to travel to the city of the OM next month for her job annual conference. I know this is important to her and have decided to travel with her and stay with her during this time.

Sweat pea -the emotional needs are as follows:

Me - Affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment, family commitment, admiration
WW - affection, domestic support, admiration, sexual fulfillment, conversation

What we are doing to support each of these areas is review our actions on a weekly basis to ensure that we are meeting each others needs. It's been going well.

In the back of my mind though, I have a question. I am still trying to figure out which of these emotional needs were met by the OM? I know that he totally admired her and put her up on a pedestal. So this is admiration. When I asked her, to her it was a big fantasy that brought her back 15 years when she was care free and didn't have to worry about not being able to get pregnant? From my earlier posts, she blamed me for not being pregnant. So what other emotional needs was I not meeting? Surely, not meeting admiration alone was the reason why see cheated on me? I know that I didn't meet her other emotional needs as well as I do now, but based on her questionnaire results, it wasn't that bad either? Am I missing something her? How can I correctly ask her about this, and find what emotional needs I wasn't meeting and the OM was?

The safeguards that she has guaranteed, is to cease all contact, and if he contacts to hang up immediately and let me know on every occasion. She has changed her email and phone number and than has really helped me. She is also going through her daily schedule with me so I know where she is at all times. She is also calling and smsing me at least 3 times a day.

In regards to UA time. We are spending at least 1.5hours each night after our child has gone to bed meeting each others needs. On the weekend, we have an afternoon together doing recreational activities together (another 4-5 hours). 2 days a week we go to work together. It is working well and we are both making an effort.


I still don't trust my wife though. I am still very suspicious of everything.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 12:59 PM
Sorry I haven't got back to you earlier sweet pea. Been really trying to work on UA time.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 01:08 PM
Another thing I am concerned about is her lack of withdrawal from the OM. She had a sexual relationship for almost 3 months, and how can she just go cold turkey on him? Can this happpen? Or is this another sign that she is in contact with the OM still? I have not seen any evidence of this thus far. She is either hiding really well, or she has truly gone cold turkey?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Sweat pea -the emotional needs are as follows:

Me - Affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment, family commitment, admiration
WW - affection, domestic support, admiration, sexual fulfillment, conversation

In regards to UA time. We are spending at least 1.5hours each night after our child has gone to bed meeting each others needs. On the weekend, we have an afternoon together doing recreational activities together (another 4-5 hours). 2 days a week we go to work together. It is working well and we are both making an effort.

Cliffy, I would focus on the 4 intimate emotional needs during your UA time. And I would plan the time AWAY from home if you want this to have any effect. Spending 1.5 hours of UA time at home late at night when your kids are in bed is not going to achieve the result you are seeking. First off, it is too easy to get distracted with household chores, TV, phone calls and interruptions from waking kids. Late at night is when you are at your most tired and messy looking. UA time needs to be in 2 to 4 hour BLOCKS to be effective.

The UA time Dr Harley has in mind is going OUT on dates when you are at your best and have spruced yourself up. You are away from kids and the distractions of home.

If you want to get any effect out of this, I would plan on going out at least 3 nights during the week, and several hours during the weekend. It will take 20 hours per week of good UA time to fall in love again.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"One problem with spending your time for undivided attention in the house is that at least one of your children will interrupt your privacy. But even if you were to send all of your children out of your hours to child care, the environment of your home is likely to cause you to be less romantic. It's a place where you have been busy caring for children. Going almost anywhere else to be alone, giving each other your undivided attention when you are there, would tend to create more of an opportunity to meet each other's intimate emotional needs."

Quote
The safeguards that she has guaranteed, is to cease all contact, and if he contacts to hang up immediately and let me know on every occasion. She has changed her email and phone number and than has really helped me. She is also going through her daily schedule with me so I know where she is at all times. She is also calling and smsing me at least 3 times a day.

Does she have a way to block his # so he can never call? She might not feel like hanging up when he calls. I would also check her car for a secret cell phone.
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Another thing I am concerned about is her lack of withdrawal from the OM. She had a sexual relationship for almost 3 months, and how can she just go cold turkey on him? Can this happpen? Or is this another sign that she is in contact with the OM still? I have not seen any evidence of this thus far. She is either hiding really well, or she has truly gone cold turkey?


Cliff-

This is a good thing in my opinion as I too have asked how my wife who was with her guy for many years could have no thoughts of him after dday.

First, it tells me she wanted out but didnt know how or more accurately was too scared what she was to face in the real world.

Second, she really hated OM in the towards the end of the A. And, if you read how it ended you'd know this guy is a vile human being and my wife cannot even stomach the thought of him. She hates even the thought she spent as much time with him as she did.

She has told me there is nothing about him she misses.

About 2 weeks before dday, OM begged my wife for date. He said it was a long time since they were together and he was going away with OMW for the weeked and needed my wife. He took her to nice dinner as was the norm and wanted to go to a hotel. My wife said no to the hotel, but as the nature of their relationship, she felt obliged to satisfy him and they went to his office where she "took care of him". How can someone who clearly didnt love him, clearly didnt really LIKE him to any degree, and resented him for a long time still perform for him? I asked her early on.

The answer is there is no answer except possibly fear. She wishes that night and many others never happened.

I have accepted this. She was in a bad place mentally and he rode that horse as much as possible.

Bottom line, Cliffy, is our wives have chosen us. You have the choice of accepting and understanding what they did has little to do with reality and was a fantasy they got caught up in. I know its sad.

Your marriage can and will be better than ever. Mine is.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
My WW needs to travel to the city of the OM next month for her job annual conference. I know this is important to her and have decided to travel with her and stay with her during this time.

This seems like a good solution. Don't spend any nights apart, if you can help it. Especially to city of OM. Yikes! I wouldn't get a wink of sleep.

quote=Cliffy177]
Me - Affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment, family commitment, admiration
WW - affection, domestic support, admiration, sexual fulfillment, conversation [/quote]

MelodyLane is a master and I would take her advice as much as possible in meeting needs. She's spot on. Particularly the part of making as much UA time "special." But I do also love the quiet time at our house when the kids are in bed, too. Like to check in, especially early on.

Originally Posted by Cliffy177
In the back of my mind though, I have a question. I am still trying to figure out which of these emotional needs were met by the OM? I know that he totally admired her and put her up on a pedestal. So this is admiration. When I asked her, to her it was a big fantasy that brought her back 15 years when she was care free and didn't have to worry about not being able to get pregnant? From my earlier posts, she blamed me for not being pregnant. So what other emotional needs was I not meeting? Surely, not meeting admiration alone was the reason why see cheated on me? I know that I didn't meet her other emotional needs as well as I do now, but based on her questionnaire results, it wasn't that bad either? Am I missing something her? How can I correctly ask her about this, and find what emotional needs I wasn't meeting and the OM was?


I think if you REALLY think about meeting the things that she mentions, you'll wipe that POSOM out of the water!!! And as ML says, concentrate on the intimate ones when you're alone. Be the KING of domestic support when you've got the kids and everything is harried. Really, she chose you; she just drifted and those things you always did naturally fell by the wayside.

Originally Posted by Cliffy177
The safeguards that she has guaranteed, is to cease all contact, and if he contacts to hang up immediately and let me know on every occasion. She has changed her email and phone number and than has really helped me. She is also going through her daily schedule with me so I know where she is at all times. She is also calling and smsing me at least 3 times a day.

In regards to UA time. We are spending at least 1.5hours each night after our child has gone to bed meeting each others needs. On the weekend, we have an afternoon together doing recreational activities together (another 4-5 hours). 2 days a week we go to work together. It is working well and we are both making an effort.


Originally Posted by Cliffy177
I still don't trust my wife though. I am still very suspicious of everything.

You shouldn't. Really, ever again. Your antenna should always be alert for chinks in the armor. We have married people with bad boundaries, so we need to be wary of slips, cracks and malaise.

All in all, Cliffy: Great, great, work.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Sorry I haven't got back to you earlier sweet pea. Been really trying to work on UA time.


Hey, don't worry! You're dealing with a traumatic event and doing all you can to right the ship of your marriage. Take care of your wife and you. Post here when you need advice and support!
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
Another thing I am concerned about is her lack of withdrawal from the OM. She had a sexual relationship for almost 3 months, and how can she just go cold turkey on him? Can this happpen? Or is this another sign that she is in contact with the OM still? I have not seen any evidence of this thus far. She is either hiding really well, or she has truly gone cold turkey?


Interestingly enough, this was the case with my FWH. I think it's because he really knew how stupid and selfish his actions were and he know me. I was giving him ONE shot at fixing himself, and us. So, he knew he couldn't pine, 'cause it would sink us.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 10:57 PM
Thanks everyone. Thanks again sweat pea. I do feel differently. I don't believe she is hiding anything from me and really is moving on. I have seen a real change in her. I hope it isn't all a front. I don't think it is.

Mike - my situation is slightly differently to yours. If I didn't catch her, it would have continued and possibly developed further.

Last night I played the honesty card with her again as I was feeing very vulnerable. I know this is a love withdrawal ( and I have really tried not to do this!), but she understood why I asked it. She sincerely explained again that it was a massive mistake in her life, and the OM is not even on her radar anymore. She knows what is important to her and will do anything to ensure that she never loses sight of it again. This really gave me further confidence and reinforcement that she has in fact managed to go cold turkey to forget the OM. She also knows that she has one shot at this, and one shot only!

melody lane - I went through her car with a fine tooth comb. No hidden phone. I have not found anything else lately either.

So melody lane and sweat pea - I shouldn't try to analyze what emotional needs were met by the OM, that made her fall in love with him? I really want to know as I really want to target those areas. At the moment, I am just trying to meet her main emotional needs with the same energy, without a strong focus on any particular area.

I will focus on the key emotional needs as you have suggested. Since we started UA time, the conversation, affection and admiration usually turns into sexual fulfillment. I can't remember how long it has been since I have been sexually fulfilled with her like this. It feels great, and she tells me she feels the same. This is a good thing right?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/20/11 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
So melody lane and sweat pea - I shouldn't try to analyze what emotional needs were met by the OM, that made her fall in love with him? I really want to know as I really want to target those areas. At the moment, I am just trying to meet her main emotional needs with the same energy, without a strong focus on any particular area.

Keep in mind that she fell in love with you before. All you have to do are the things you did then. But PLEASE don't do shortcuts on your UA time or you are going to be sorely disappointed.

The habits in your marriage should be transformed if you want to transform your marriage, and that means making QUALITY UA time your main priority. Sitting at home after your child is asleep is ok, but should be not be the mainstay of your UA time during the week. You should be going out every other night on DATES. AWAY from home. When you have the most energy.

What kind of a job is she doing to meet your needs, Cliff? She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. How would rate her effort?
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/21/11 12:37 AM
Cliffy:

Don't get caught up in what, exactly, he did for your wife. He was a shiny new object that made here eyes light up, but upon closer examination turned out to be a fake.

You're the diamond in her life, and worth every penny. You just needed to be buffed a bit (meeting needs) to let your true value to your wife shine through.

I love Melody's question about her meeting your needs. How's that going?

FYI: You two are probably "hysterical bonding," meaning you're giving each other EVERYTHING because of the trauma you've been through. This won't last forever, and that's when you really need to pay attention and follow the plan.

My FWH and I hit that post hysterical bonding spot -- I think about six to eight months into our recovery. We just didn't feel so super connected, we realized we'd let our UA time slip a bit. It's easy to do, when you don't feel the affair gun at your head.

We both realized that we were letting real life wedge its way between us, and we got back on track with time together. When we don't talk, cuddle, recreate together, we feel it.

I love this part of MB. The "plan" really does work. But like everything it takes a bit of effort. But unlike a chore, it's REWARDING in so many ways.

Keep up the good work, Cliffy!

Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/22/11 11:45 AM
Thanks sweat pea.

Today, we went to our 2nd and probably last counselling session. Unfortunately the counsellor brings out some 'home truths' but has no positive resolutions. So, after the two times we've been, we've both felt less close to each other as a result (ie. Lots of love withdrawals), thus the reason we won't go anymore. It was my WW's idea initially. We realize now, it is doing us more harm than good.

Having said this, the counsellor did raise a number of important points that has re-inforced PLAN A per marriage builders. Today the counsellor raised:

As you have changed your phone and email. If the OM still seeks you out, then this is considered stalking or harassment and we should go straight to the police. I'm really in favor with this, but had not pushed this thought previously. Why you ask? Because my WW did not think this way. In her own words, she believed if the police had to be involved at anytime, it may cause un-necessary further harm to her family (my in-laws). The good news is the counsellor really pushed her and told her she must firstly tell me, and then secondly notify the police. She did not like this answer, but has now reluctantly agreed.

My concerns are, I wanted to push this point with her before, but was concerned that if I did, she may not be honest and tell me if he contacts her (out of fear that I would take it to the police). My concern is now, she has reluctantly agreed to do it - ie. She is not enthusiastic about this at all. This concerns me as this tells me she still has feelings for him and may kind of still wants him to contact her. Am I reading this correctly? Help please.....

Ironically, if she spoke to her family, they would encourage her to go to the police. They have told me this.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/22/11 05:09 PM
I don't know why, but my heart is very heavy at the moment. I feeling like leaving.............

I have not been able to sleep at all tonight.........I am really struggling.

I am not sure if it is worth fighting for.

Something she said to me last night made me realize tha she has never REALLY put herself in my shoes. I am referring to before the A started, and now during recovery she still isn't realising the amount of pain that I'm going through.

I feel like throwing the towel................
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/22/11 05:10 PM
Throwing in the towel
Posted By: MikeStillSmiling Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/22/11 07:45 PM
Im not going into my marriage counselor rant as its out there somewhere, but do not make any decisions based on a MC counselor visit.

No one will blame your for bailing on the marriage.

I think you need more time, however.

Good luck in whatever you do.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/22/11 10:15 PM
Cliffy:

Your wife needs to hear what kind of pain you're in. But tell her you're working on moving past it, too.

She should be trying to comfort you in any way she can. AND she should be meeting your top emotional needs, so that you're building new memories and excising the bad.

We were lucky with marriage counseling. She was a very straight shooter, and had no problem with Marriage Builders techniques. I found her invaluable at navigating some very tough discussions, and she really held my FWH's feet to the fire.

For instance, we had a very tough time talking about a post-nuptial agreement that I wanted us to sign, that basically said I get way more than 50/50 should he cheat again. He hesitated and hesitated and hesitated. Ultimately, deep down, he was afraid he wouldn't be able to keep his bad behaviors in check.

She told him point blank that he was totally in command of his actions and that if he strays again, he's doing it because he has CHOSEN to do so. So ... his hesitation was him wanting to keep his options open. That's when his language about fidelity into th future changed. He realized he was giving himself permission to cheat again, so he stopped saying "might" and started saying "won't" happen again.

That's just one of several big points we went through, including individual counseling, which I've repeatedly said helped me find ME again (with or without FWH). I really needed that guidance.

{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/22/11 10:51 PM
Thanks everyone.

Even now, I'm sure my WW doesn't understand. She knew I was up all night (if she didn't, she should have!), and instead of really trying to find out what was going through my head this morning, she just went to work.

I am concerned that I am giving up. I don't know why I am feeling this way. Those last few weeks meeting emotional needs have been great. But after the counseling session yesterday, everything has changed. It's not just the counseling, but I think her reaction to topics raised ( per my previous few posts) has really opened my eyes to who she really is.

You would think after being together for 15 years you would know your partner inside out. I guess not.

I'm after some thoughts on 2 topics if anyone can help per my previous few posts on this page:

1) thoughts around her reaction to contacting the police - ie. Does this indicate she still cares for him?
2) why has she not REALLY put herself in my shoes to really understand the pain I'm going through?

Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/23/11 12:29 PM
Cliffy:

I have no idea why your wife would be hesitant to call the police if OM contacts her again and you decide it is harassment. It could be that she's still deeply wayward and wants him to contact her. It could be that she's so horribly ashamed of her actions that if it were to become part of the public record, she'd be embarrassed.

She should be able to articulate to you WHY she's hesitating. If this -- turning OM into police for further contact -- is the way YOU want to do it, then she needs to get her foggy wayward mind around it.

She nearly ruined your lives; this guy is as significant a threat to your marriage as anything (burglar, robber, rapist). You have told him to stay away, and if he does not, then he should suffer the consequences (legal action).

And think about this: Exposure would probably end all this controversy over the OM. If your closest friends and family members know about the affair and know you have asked POSOM not to contact your wife, you can ask them to kindly put pressure on him to butt out ... or suffer the consequences of his continued actions with law enforcement.

About not feeling your pain. I'm not sure any wayward feels our pain as deeply and as long. Dr. Harvey says it's worse than the emotional trauma of being raped. I've never been raped, but I can tell you that at times I felt like putting one foot in front of another was too much effort.

But, again, that is the beauty of Marriage Builders and, frankly, counseling. Yes, this is devastating, but if you are to recover, you're going to have to move forward. And that means, with time, forcing yourself to think less and less about the affair and your pain.

It will take a long time.

The incident of you staying up all night. Don't let these kinds of incidents linger. If you were up all night worrying, yes, it would be great if your wife said: Honey, I noticed you tossed and turned. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything I did.

But if she isn't, it's not fair for you to sit back and pout. Being OPEN AND HONEST means you have to O&H about your feelings, even if that means you need to reach out and tell her you need more TLC. OR for her to apologize again. Or for her to just simply hold your hand.

But Mike is right. If you really think there's no hope, you've been given the biggest get out of jail free card with her affair.

Cliffy: It will get better, if you work the program. It's not some magic forumal. It's simple behavioral modifications to make sure the cheater doesn't have the opportunity to cheat, and to help you two find your way back to each other.

I know, it sounds simple when I type it, but I, too, and many of us here have struggled. But I'm happy -- overjoyed -- that I stuck it out and am on the other side of the pain.

Hope this helps,
Sweetpea
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/23/11 01:38 PM
Cliffy:

Thinking about this more. POSOM is the ENEMY, and your wife needs to see that. He should be DESTROYED in this battle for your wife.

I think she doesn't want to see POSOM hurt or embarrassed by legal/police action. So, to me, she's still foggy.

This is where you need to step up as the warrior for your marriage. This is NOT an issue that she gets input in, because she obviously isn't willing to ENSURE NO CONTACT -- FOR LIFE!!!

If she thinks it's even REMOTELY OK for him to reach out to her, she's in denial.

I'm hoping someone else will pipe in to bolster this thought. Struck me like a ton of bricks while reading someone else's thread.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/23/11 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
My concerns are, I wanted to push this point with her before, but was concerned that if I did, she may not be honest and tell me if he contacts her (out of fear that I would take it to the police). My concern is now, she has reluctantly agreed to do it - ie. She is not enthusiastic about this at all. This concerns me as this tells me she still has feelings for him and may kind of still wants him to contact her. Am I reading this correctly? Help please.....

Cliff, you are correct, she won't be honest. This is why the solution is for her to make it impossible for him to contact her at all. That avenue needs to shut down. How would he contact her? Asking a WS to "be honest" about contact misses the point completely. Being honest about contact does not negate the fact that she is triggered. The solution is to make sure he doesn't ever get through.

And has she sent him a no contact letter as outlined in the book SAA?

The fact that she does not want to call the police is very normal. Yes she does have feelings for him. WE ALREADY KNEW THIS. This is why she had an affair with the man. It is unrealistic to believe otherwise. She is still in the fog, so that is to be expected.

I have a feeling there might still be contact, though. How are you checking?

Also, what you have discovered about counseling is EXACTLY WHY Dr Harley does not counsel couples together. They leave more angry than when they went in. What is the point of paying someone to sit in their office and lovebust each other? You can stay home and do it for free! This is why I continually say that marriage counseling is destructive to marriages. Is it any wonder that marriage counselers have a higher divorce rate than the general population?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/23/11 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Cliffy177
I'm after some thoughts on 2 topics if anyone can help per my previous few posts on this page:

1) thoughts around her reaction to contacting the police - ie. Does this indicate she still cares for him?
2) why has she not REALLY put herself in my shoes to really understand the pain I'm going through?

Real simple: she is still in the fog! And that explains why you don't recognize her. A person in the fog is the equivalent of a falling down drunk.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/24/11 12:35 AM
Thanks melody and sweat pea.

Even before reading your comments I did exactly what you wrote. I confronted her with both points and told her, even though we're meeting each others emotionals needs, she can't lose sight of how devastated I still am because of what she's done. She thought as I didn't talk about it anymore, I must have stopped feeling pain!!!

I also asked why she didn't want to go to the police. She told me it was more out of embarrassment that she had to do it, ie revealing this shameful thing to others. She said she now understands why it must be done and enthusiastically agreed.

Melody - letter has been done, and phone and email address has been changed. The issue is, the OM knows where she works, and can still contact her if he wanted to. At least the DIRECT lines of communication have been removed. So if he contacts from now on, it's harassment!

Question: previous to this my WW has not/ would not talk about the OM (and even to the counsellor), saying that he is completely out of her mind. Can this occur, or does she still hold feelings as you have suggested melody but simply hiding it. Hold the reply until you read the below.

My wife works for a Bank. Yesterday, while she was interviewing a customer, when she noticed that the OM's brother (he lives in our city) was in line at the branch to be served. She has never seem him in the branch before, and after some thought she thinks that the OM asked his brother to check if my wife still worked there (as the phone and email had been changed).

I have 2 thoughts about this and need your help:

1) if my wife is telling me the truth, then this is progress. We then need to prepare for the fact that he is planning to contact her again.

2) what if my wife isn't telling me the truth? What if it was actually OM that came into the branch and they had a chat. Ie. She didn't push him away? Am I reading too much into this? Based on your comments Melody that she may still be in the fog and my above comments that she says she is completely over him, I am very concerned.

I am tracking her phone calls and SMS's. I have a gps on her and tracking her movements. I can't see emails as she is on an enterprise email system, all of the spyware programs can't be installed. Unless anyone knows an alternative?





Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/24/11 06:59 PM
Cliffy:

I'm glad your wife agreed to call the police. That does seem like progress.

The bit about the brother coming to the bank? That seems like wishful thinking on your WS's part, meaning she's still hoping he'll use ANY means to contact her. Sorry, but that's what it feels like.

I would ask her: well, did brother speak to you? Look at you?

I would advise her that the next time she sees anyone connected to the POSOM and she can't get out, to be direct and clear. To say: Hey, please don't ever speak to me about POSOM. Our affair was the biggest mistake of my life.

RE work. Is there anyone at work you could rely upon to observe your wife's phone calls, etc?

Hope that helps.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/25/11 11:23 AM
Hi sweat pea.

The OM's brother didn't speak to my wife, but my wife thinks he did see her. So if he was 'spying', he would verified that my wife still worked there.

Unfortunately, there is no one at her work that can keep an eye on her calls. She works between 2 branches, which makes it even harder.

I do believe her when she says, that she only wants to spend her life with me now. I want to believe that she doesn't want to talk to the OM again, but I'm not sure if I can.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/25/11 12:53 PM
Cliffy:

Sounds to me like your wife ought to get a new job or you could step up and call OM's brother to tell him to stay away from your wife.

See? This is the problem with not exposing properly, Cliffy. What if OM is telling everyone he knows that you're some sort of controlling freak, keeping her prisoner.

Seems to me like you two would be better off making contact with the significant people in OM's life, especially his wife or girlfriend, his closest friends, his brother and/or other siblings AND his parents to tell them the truth.

Otherwise, you'll be waiting and waiting and waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Read some other threads about exposure. I believe HoldHerHand and MikeStillSmilling did it, and were grateful.

You need to put everyone on notice that you're committed to each other and need their help to make it work (i.e.: make sure your wife is holding up her end of the bargain), or they need to stay away.

Think about it, Cliffy. Your lack of exposure is leaving your wife very vulnerable. You want that risk out there for the rest of your life? Yup, she is ashamed, but she did it. Everything and now she's probably begging you not to tell anyone. Why? Because it allows her to pretend that she never did it, and keep another big secret from the rest of the world.

But guess what? Keeping that part of herself secret likely will trip her up in the future. Not only all the "what ifs" about the OM, but don't you think her friends and family will HELP her stay on the straight and narrow in the future? SHe will need that help.

Think about it.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/26/11 01:02 PM
I agree sweat pea. My wife's family are fully aware of what is happening. They have told her that they will dis-own her if she ever talks to the OM again. She is very close to her family, so has a strong motivation to not contact the OM again.

I do agree with your thoughts about exposing the OM. I don't want to live the rest of my life 'looking over my shoulder'.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/26/11 01:14 PM
...and HelpforDad, too, and I'm glad I did.

Got OM fired from jobsite, exposed to OMs mom, sisters, brother (OM was 45 years old, single still, never married, no kids), exposed to the union, his employer who called to apologize -- work, home...now, everyone knew what the slimball was up too. And, now OM got the message that this was only the first salvo of what I'd do to protect my family.

OMs mom called me, ripped into my W, said she'd 'talk to her boy'...I imagine that put a nail in the coffin of the affair.

And, as I've written on previous posts, not only am I grateful, but my W -- to this day -- still THANKS ME for exposing becasue, as she has stated, even though she knew it was over, she couldn't end the 'addiction' of the affair on her own and needed a hero -- her HUSBAND -- to fight for her and our children.

Expose.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/26/11 02:00 PM
Helpfordad: Thanks for giving another BS's opinion on exposure. We didn't expose in a nuclear fashion because my FWH was one of the few who stopped immediately (I've checked!). He knew he had one shot, and he wanted that one shot to have me back.

But if I had to have gone nuclear, of my god. I would have!!! But in the calmest, most serene way. I would have leveled FWH and his POSOW.

In the end, we told several good friends and selected family members. They are a godsend in helping us recover. Truly.

I do feel like Cliffy's wife, while remorseful, seems to be holding out some slim hope that her AP will contact her; otherwise, why the concern over POSOM's brother visiting her bank?

Cliffy: I'm glad you see it this way. I would also like to say that full exposure should be cathartic, ultimately, for you wife. Why? Because, there will be no more places to hide.

And, I love the fact that the people to whom you expose will help SUPPORT your wayward wife, AND keep her in line.

Get it done, Cliffy. Put the dagger into the heart of this affair for good.

Then, really concentrate on UA time, emotional needs and maintaining your boundaries. UA time is awesome, and you and your wife need it to heal and move forward.

Cheers,
Sweetpea
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/27/11 01:23 PM
Sweat pea.

Did you FWH have an affair for a few months. Did he love the other person? My WW did. That's why I believe that she wants to spend her life with me, but I am certain she still has feelings for the OM, even though she outrightly says she doesn't.
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/27/11 03:44 PM
Cliffy:

He did tell me that he told her he loved her. Thought they had a "magical connection" because their sexual encounters were so "amazing." PUKE!!PUKE!!PUKE!!PUKE!!PUKE!!PUKE!!PUKE!!PUKE!!

But when DDay arrived, and I said me or her, he chose me.

Withdrawal is difficult for some WS, and what I've read on the forum is that it can be more difficult for women.

Here's a quote from Dr. Harvey, and I would recommend finishing "surviving an Affair," and reacquainting yourself with this particular link: What do do with an unfaithful wife: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033a_qa.html

[quote]
She is probably suffering depression over the relationship not working out. It's a common symptom of withdrawal. She will want to talk to someone about how badly she feels. Try to be the one she confides in, even if what she says is how much she misses this other man. DON'T JUDGE HER! If you do, she simply won't open up to you. If you can't handle it, she should talk to a friend or a counselor, but don't risk losing her by venting your anger or your judgment on her. [\quote]

It's your job to meet ALL of her most important emotional needs so that there is NO COMPARISON between you -- her loving and lawful husband -- and scumb bucket POSOM!

When I was in the first months of knowing, I needed constant reminders from the book and this website to keep on track.

Plus my individual counselor, who helped me find my confidence again.

HOpe that helps.

Also, Cliffy: While it's great that we have a wonderful dialogue, you should try to address the broader group to elicit MORE feedback and support. I'm just one recovering BS, and your situation I believe needs a bit more help than just me!

But keep the questions coming!
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 09/28/11 01:29 PM
Thanks sweat pea. I agree! I need help from anyone that is on this website. Everyone to date has been awesome and has made me really understand what and why my WW did what she did.

It is still a daily battle, but things are definitely getting better. My WW is a lot more understanding which makes it a whole lot easier to handle too.

Like sweat pea's FWH, I think my WW has seen the light, and is now making a concerted effort.
Posted By: Cliffy177 Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 11/19/11 06:54 PM
Hi,

I have not posted for a while. Since D-Day 2 (SEP 5, 2011), my wife and I have been doing plan A. Not perfectly, but we have been working at it and we are both on the road to recovery. We are a lot happier together.

The reason why I am posting is my pain. I know this pain will take a long time to heal, or may never heal entirely. My concern is in the recent weeks, in my mind I have come to a realization that I may never love my wife again, the way I used to. This consideration has made me wonder if I should still be in this marriage or not? We have a beautiful child together, and the last thing I want to do is to bring her up in a broken home.

However, this feeling that I don't/won't love my wife the same again, at first I thought was just part of the pain, but now has come to be a lot more than that. It is keeping me up. I am sanely thinking about it, putting in my mind the realities of actually leaving my wife. I can vision a life without her? The possibility of even being with someone else.

This sounds all insane, and let me tell you, before my wife cheated on me, I thought we were soul mates, and these thoughts were never in my mind.

Is it strange for me to feel this way now?

I have not spoken to my wife about this. I know I need to as some stage, but do not know how to approach it - ie. love withdrawal.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Recovering is so hard!!!! - 11/19/11 07:08 PM
Cliffy, the way you feel is a result of your wife's affair and it will get worse over time unless you use this program. Her affair was a massive lovebuster. But you don't want the same marriage back that you had before. That marriage led to an affair. You have to have something BETTER. And you can have something better if you use this program in a diligent, methodical way.

You should not be doing Plan A, but Plan Recovery. That means using the program to become experts at meeting each others needs, eliminating lovebusters and most importantly, spending 20-25 hours per week of undivided attention time meeting these top 4 intimate emotional needs: affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship. <----that is the key to restoring romantic love. This program does not work without it.

I would get the books, Surviving an Affair, Lovebusters and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and follow the program as outlined in those books.

If you do that, then you will have a BETTER marriage than what you had before. And that is the goal, because your old marriage is dead and gone. It is what led to an affair.

If you have any problems doing this, I would strongly encourage you to sign up for the Marriage Builders course like many of us have done. They assign you a trained coach who guides your lessons and is in phone/email contact with you every week. You have daily access to Dr Harley over on the private forum. My H and I did this course in 2007 and it made an amazing difference. [they call it the online course now but it is the same course]
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