It seems like every other post from newbie BSs on this forum seems to contain the phrase 'My WS says....'
This is ok (ish), except when followed by the fatal 'I do believe him/her'
The worst ones then follow up with a desire to 'trust'.
I therefore submit a golden rule.......
NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.
Now everyone of us has been there, been gaslighted, been lied to very convincingly by people who we love and know to have honest and upstanding pasts. (oh yes, it's not just yours!)
That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.
A truly repentent wayward will jump through hoops to prove themselves with actions like an NC letter or a polygraph.
Words are just too inadequate and they know that.
Here is my top ten of things waywards lie about
1) It was an EA only It was a PA, but if I tell you the truth that will have to stop and you will probably leave me. 2)It was a PA, but we only did it once/oral/kissing I minimimize what I am ashamed of, though there is no logic in doing so. 3)It is your fault for not meeting my ENs This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex 4)Our marriage has been miserable for years This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex 5)I do not love you - I love the OP I have betrayed my morals and everything I once believed in. I must love the OP - or else I am just stupid for risking so much. Actually I am just greedy and stupid. Dont tell anyone. 6)I want a divorce But I will not bother filing. This is an idle threat to scare you into submission. 7) She/he is just a friend That I value more than your discomfort with their presence. 8) I need privacy, that's all So I can cheat on you 9) I dont need an NC letter because there is no contact Please dont make me give up my cake 10)You are jealous/controlling/demanding You are getting really warm and I dont like it.
Can I please invite others to share lies they were told/told themselves that were really convincing and why they should NOT be believed without proof?
WW is in shambles, crying depressed you name it, saying all the right things " I'm so sorry, I love you, how could I do this, let's go to counseling, please don't leave, I need to end it w/ OM"
Amen indiegirl! The "word" of a wayward is about as relevant as the rantings of a falling down drunk.
I get really frustrated when BS' post fogbabble on this forum because it is a distraction and an impediment from saving the marriage. I don't give a RIP what a WS says. It is meaningless!
I am also proud of you indie. Your posts to others show that intellectually you 'get it' though I have to say when it comes to our own situations, we tend to be babes in the wood cause we are a bit vulnerable being human beings. We just are.
That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.
Found this on another site, something I have found helpful in understanding WH's behaviour is not about me, it is ALL about him... Helps with seeing the wayward's behaviour for what it is.
Replace addicts with waywards, after all, they are one and the same. 1. Addicts lie 2. Addicts make excuses for their bad behaviour 3. Addicts are NOT in control of themselves 4. Addicts want one thing - more more, and again more 5. Addicts are master manipulators - of spouses, children, even their parents 5. Addicts don't care about long term 6. Addicts don't care about logic 7. Addicts are not reliable 8. Addicts lie 9. Addicts talk ONLY for three things : a. to pursue their addiction b. to pursue their addiction c. to pursue their addiction 10. Addicts lie 11. Addicts create walls to isolate themselves from anyone that may interfere with pusuit of their addiction a. Emotional walls - I'm done, I'm divorcing you, I don't love you b. Walls of Lies, stories, excuses c. Walls of wood and brick - they shut doors, stay away from home, dissappear for hours on end 12. Addicts lie 13 Addicts use people 14. Addicts don't care if they hurt people 15. Addicts are ill 16. Addicts aren't loyal or dependable 17. Did I mention that addicts lie? 18. Addicts recover
I question number 18 though... in my experience addicts do not always recover, or can take a very long time to do so... I would add "can" to this... Addicts CAN recover.
Oh, and a beauty I heard was that WH just needs time and space, he is certainly NOT looking to rush into another relationship. Two weeks later he is dating and there "is a spark" with OW.
Time and space mean "butt out so I can continue an affair without YOU, that pesky BS, interfering".
Part of it, though, it that you *want* to believe them. How could the person you love so darned much lie to you? There's that brain barrier (BS fog) that won't really let the truth in.
I was lied to so much, gaslighted so much, that I actually started believing his fantasy.
My fog is gone gone gone... and his? Thicker than ever LOL He lies so much, I have new "cocked eyebrow" wrinkles.
And FYI... just to show how very bad they are when it comes to lying; I sat in front of my WH, with a receipt from a grocery store, showing foods we don't eat, in a grocery store in the city OW lives in and showing the last 4 digits of HIS debit card. He STILL denied it was him.
When I provided a receipt showing a time and date for a shoe store with a purchase for mens shoes (which he showed me), in OW's city, for a time he was supposed to be far, far away, he denied it. "The store has the wrong date, I bought those just now!"
This one's a kicker... I provided him with a list of non-negotiable requests (MB style). He left the house to go think about everything. OW texted him, oh she was soooooo hungry, could he order them a pizza? Yep, he did, and what did he write her order and address on? Yep, the list of requests. Oh, but that isn't his hand writing (yes it was), he didn't write that (yes he did)! Someone must have used it for scrap (yeah, the ghost in his truck).
How do we who are fighting the past and have elected to stay with our cheating spouse overcome such character flaws? Somehow I see a disconnect between swallowing all that she did up until dday and how Im supposed to live afterwards.
The lists above paint one ugly picture of a human being supposed to be my partner, supposed to have and to hold me, supposed to be there in the best and worst of times. And, man, if she WAS half the monster these descriptions illuminate, the question is at what point are you what you once were? And just because thru sheer stupidity she got caught, is she not any of those things? And because she's become a wonderful wife since dday doing things I wish she did years ago, are all those things above now moot?
Mike i can tell you from experience as a wh that the person i became is not the person i am. Affairs really flip flop you into a very disingenuous person. Everything that you once were gone, some of us wake up and see what has happened and what is going on. For me it took a bus to hit me(figuratively)......We see the path of distruction and the hurt and we long to take up the cross and carry it. Should all just be forgiven, maybe every sich is different, only lots of time will tell. Should alll be forgotten, never , but you need to put those thought and visions of what happened in there place, the lock box so to speak. Not to never be thought about ever again, but to protect your marriage from the extreme rage and extreme emotion, that they can ravoc on the good times. Which they really can. MB principles will protect you from triggers which are the key to the lock box. Try to lose the key and you will win the game. Yes i know its not a game just an analogy. I am not a perfect person not now nor ever, I will always strive to be a great person, husband, and father! Some days are easier than others! Hope this helps. Nothing is moot if you dwell on it every day.
And please dont misunderstand me, I am by no means saying "Just get over it" I despise those words
I've seen so many lies posted (here and other forums) that BS's have believed of their WS's that I want to make one of those rubber bracelets for BS's that say, "Don't Believe!" (OK, there's got to be something more clever than that but my brain is wracked from studying all night!)
Oh - I was guilty too when my H first was wayward. I believed it was all my fault. I believed him when I challenged him that he must be up to something and he said it was my wanting to blame someone else for MY failures - my driving him away. I believed him when he said it would be better for all of us, esp. the kids, if we could be civil and get along and have an amicable divorce. Thank goodness I didn't believe too long!!!
The thing BS's need to see is that if they don't consciously fight these lies in their own heads they will succumb to belief. Succumbing to belief means acting on it - which is usually very detrimental to the cause.
Basically, every lie a WS tells says one thing: "Go away! Leave me alone so I can do what I want with whom I want!" They will say ANYTHING to get you to do so.
The sad part is, this is the person that knows you best in the world, and knows what buttons to push.
The question for vets and those of us who have recovered is, how do we get BS's to a point where they don't fall for this garbage more quickly? Often newly BS's believe their lying, cheating spouse but don't believe us when we tell them not to believe!
How do we who are fighting the past and have elected to stay with our cheating spouse overcome such character flaws? Somehow I see a disconnect between swallowing all that she did up until dday and how Im supposed to live afterwards.
Mike,
I think this thought EVERY DAY...and I wish I could stop.
How do we who are fighting the past and have elected to stay with our cheating spouse overcome such character flaws? Somehow I see a disconnect between swallowing all that she did up until dday and how Im supposed to live afterwards.
The lists above paint one ugly picture of a human being supposed to be my partner, supposed to have and to hold me, supposed to be there in the best and worst of times. And, man, if she WAS half the monster these descriptions illuminate, the question is at what point are you what you once were? And just because thru sheer stupidity she got caught, is she not any of those things? And because she's become a wonderful wife since dday doing things I wish she did years ago, are all those things above now moot?
Maybe this should be on my "Recovery" thread.
I have a hard time with this too at times. I can separate it out knowing that my husband is not that man now - the liar that he was during his affair. The man he is currently (as well as prior A) would never say or do those things. It's just like having PTSD, however, in the fact that you always have it in your mind that your spouse was capable of that. Yet, unless he or she has consistently shown bad character through the duration of your marriage, you have to reconcile it in your own mind, knowing the way he or she behaved was because of the addiction of the affair. It's basically no different than if you were married to a drug addict.
Sometimes that kind of statement makes people think you are excusing the behavior, saying it was "the drugs". It isn't. It can be confusing because we talk about accountability and tough love and then turn around and say it's an addiction. Well...all are viable. Your spouse got involved with the AP because he/she chose badly - chose to let boundaries slip away - chose to turn to an easy, feel-good fix rather than doing the right things to solve issues. Along the way there are opportunities to turn back from those bad choices. When WS's keep choosing poorly, it is definitely on them! Then, once hooked and those hormone chemicals kick in, the high becomes more important than their morals or character. They begin to lie to themselves and ultimately to the BS to maintain it. Once that high is broken and the affair is busted, you have a chance at regaining your once moral spouse.
Most of us are capable of going against our morals and good character when we can justify it to ourselves. That's why the recovery plan is SO important! Ditching the affair and deciding to recommit to the marriage is one thing. Truly turning the ship around is another. I don't want to sleep with one eye open, but I know my husband has shown that he has a weakness in allowing himself to succumb to things he should not have. So, you take steps to ensure there's no reason to look elsewhere. Further, you eliminate problem areas that allowed the opportunities to succumb in the first place.
This is where openness and honesty are so important: the reason we believe the lies the WS tells is because we are so used to believing lies in the first place. Most of us lived in a state of deceit even if we didn't realize it, pre-bomb. Our lives were nothing but trying to avoid saying how we really felt for fear of conflict. We hid our true selves and so did our spouses. There's usually been so much "justifiable lying" in our relationships that it really isn't a big step for a WS to rationalize the lies of the affair. When you are in recovery and you learn to be honest about all things, you shut down the world of deceit and it makes regaining trust much easier.
I think, Mike, that it comes down to trying to regain respect back for your spouse - at least it does for me. I forgave fairly easily and trust has come along in progression over the past year. The respect takes a bit longer.
[quote=SunnyDinTXSometimes that kind of statement makes people think you are excusing the behavior, saying it was "the drugs". It isn't. It can be confusing because we talk about accountability and tough love and then turn around and say it's an addiction. Well...all are viable. Your spouse got involved with the AP because he/she chose badly - chose to let boundaries slip away - chose to turn to an easy, feel-good fix rather than doing the right things to solve issues. Along the way there are opportunities to turn back from those bad choices. When WS's keep choosing poorly, it is definitely on them! Then, once hooked and those hormone chemicals kick in, the high becomes more important than their morals or character. They begin to lie to themselves and ultimately to the BS to maintain it. Once that high is broken and the affair is busted, you have a chance at regaining your once moral spouse.
Most of us are capable of going against our morals and good character when we can justify it to ourselves. That's why the recovery plan is SO important! Ditching the affair and deciding to recommit to the marriage is one thing. Truly turning the ship around is another. I don't want to sleep with one eye open, but I know my husband has shown that he has a weakness in allowing himself to succumb to things he should not have. So, you take steps to ensure there's no reason to look elsewhere. Further, you eliminate problem areas that allowed the opportunities to succumb in the first place.
First hand experience: I was a fragmented person, from time to time could see through the fog, but no will or not enough will to get through it. I look back and truly get depressed, even after 3.5 years, how could i be so lost. please dont think i am trying to give myself and out or excuse, but it was really tough breaking the high.
Our lives were nothing but trying to avoid saying how we really felt for fear of conflict. We hid our true selves and so did our spouses. There's usually been so much "justifiable lying" in our relationships that it really isn't a big step for a WS to rationalize the lies of the affair. When you are in recovery and you learn to be honest about all things, you shut down the world of deceit and it makes regaining trust much easier.
I really think this is true of a ton of marriages....We are trying not to rock the boat or to keep the boat from rocking..We are not working on being happy in our marriage. Most people sacrifice to the extreme and that hurts the marriage. [/quote]
First hand experience: I was a fragmented person, from time to time could see through the fog, but no will or not enough will to get through it. I look back and truly get depressed, even after 3.5 years, how could i be so lost. please dont think i am trying to give myself and out or excuse, but it was really tough breaking the high.
I really think this is true of a ton of marriages....We are trying not to rock the boat or to keep the boat from rocking..We are not working on being happy in our marriage. Most people sacrifice to the extreme and that hurts the marriage.
Exactly, Trying - after one feels he or she has sacrificed so much trying to not rock the boat the feeling of entitlement sets in: the "when is it my turn to be happy" feeling. The thing is, the other spouse is probably feeling the same bay! The truth is, both parties deserve to be happy and neither should be a martyr for the sake of the family. Fix that and you fix the desire to go outside the marriage, in most cases.
I can understand how tough it must be to break the high. That's why a BS has to fire all guns to provide the motivation for the WS to do so. I think back and I know that while in the affair there were times my H saw through the fog too but couldn't break free. All of us live with our mistakes, no matter what they are. At least you are here trying to make something good from yours - that's huge! So many people want to hide in shame from the things they've done wrong in their lives. When people do that, they hold on to shame, giving it power in their lives and it gives way to depression. How much more freeing is it to learn from mistakes and turn weaknesses into strengths?! You can't rewrite the past but you CAN take back and reclaim things for yourself - for your family.
How do you know when the lieing stops ? How do you know when to start making that move to recovery ?
Once a liar always a liar, how do you know the truth from the lies ?
You know when your spouse is ready to take appropriate actions. You believe what they DO, not what they say. When they stop rationalizing everything they want to do or don't want to do and are just willing to do whatever it takes to make YOU feel secure.... that's when you know they are serious about recovery. Even then, you have to follow up with those actions (making them go through with it) because the actions will bring about reconciliation, not just feelings.
I've seen too many false recoveries because a wayward all of a sudden seemed repentant and the BS didn't make them follow through with the recovery plan because they thought they were in the clear now that "Joe" or "Susie" was teary-eyed and sorry. Well...Joe or Susie might be sorry and want to make a go of it. However, Joe or Susie is also probably still an addict at that point - and the actions help break the addiction.
After all the actions have been taken - No Contact Letter, transparency, EP's, etc... followed by a commitment to the plan and actually working the plan (spending the UA time together, meeting needs, etc...) THEN you can start to relax a bit and not worry about lying.
Even for a time after that you have to trust but verify.
My WH (military member): I would never risk my career and do something as stupid as contact her.
...what this really means is "I am going to tell you what you want to hear, but truth is, I AM that stupid bc I have yet to learn that you will find out about my very secret contact with OP"
Yep...he verified that he was stupid enough y'all.
Even for a time after that you have to trust but verify.
Yes, Dr H says that even marriages not affected by an affair where everything seems great you should apply 'trust but verify' rather than blind trust.
People make mistakes about other things besides fidelity - money, family, gambling, drinking, overeating, porn, pyramid schemes...
The only alternative to verifying is to assume you are married to someone perfect, who never makes mistakes, never tells a 'white' lie and does everything you wish the way you wish without your input and guidance!
The only alternative to verifying is to assume you are married to someone perfect, who never makes mistakes, never tells a 'white' lie and does everything you wish the way you wish without your input and guidance!
I want to be married to THAT guy!!!!!!
LOL
You're right... it's true! I tend to think in terms of infidelity these days but in marriage, there are plenty of other issues to maintain openness about than just cheating.
We examined a study in my Interpersonal Communications class. It's CRAZY the amount of lying that goes on in a single day. As a culture we lie about tons of things we don't even need to lie about. And it starts YOUNG...really young. We basically teach our kids to lie without even knowing it.
I will never know how my xwh could so convincingly look me in the eyes and lie his azz off. Never could I pull that one off so convincingly, and often.
Please do not ever take the word of a wayward spouse. It is like a double edged sword. Sharp, cutting, and sometimes you can get a knife in the back. They are all over the place emotionally, but the only constant, is they will yield always to whatever at the MOMENT makes them happy.
Never trust..only verify. If you have to, please hire a PI. I did and it confirmed everything, and made me lose all the BS fog we get when we just dont' WANT to believe our h or w is this vile, lying creature. It jolts reality into your brain, and also makes for great evidence should you have to divorce their lying butt.
Also, go to our board for snooping. Use every means necessary to get the truth while fighting for your marriage. My xwh was such a good liar, and such a fogged out menace, he would lie and lie and lie EVEN WHEN CONFRONTED with facts such as phone bills, receipts, photographs, video, and emails. He claimed even that the PI evidence I got, was "not him".
Like that dumb rap song from what 10 yrs ago? "It Wasn't Me" by Shaggy.
Either he was the greatest liar in the world, or else he had been cloned by aliens as he was sleeping and the aliens kept the good husband on the mothership..and left behind the crappy one I had to deal with.
I DO NOT MISS dealing with a wayward. I will NEVER deal with one ever again. It is a deal breaker for me 100 percent.
Luckily dh and I (was remarried last year) are TRUTHFUL and value fidelity. But if I am ever confronted with it again, I will NOT EVER deal with it. Three little words say what I would do again if ever confronted with a cheating spouse: boots (as in cute cowgirl boots I have)-azz-door.
How do you know when the lieing stops ? How do you know when to start making that move to recovery ? .....how do you know the truth from the lies ?
You know when your spouse is ready to take appropriate actions. You believe what they DO, not what they say. When they stop rationalizing everything they want to do or don't want to do and are just willing to do whatever it takes to make YOU feel secure.... that's when you know they are serious about recovery. Even then, you have to follow up with those actions (making them go through with it) because the actions will bring about reconciliation, not just feelings.
I think its also important to keep in mind that aside from outright lies, lots of BSs get half truths or hidden truths.
I knew there was something wrong in my marriage when my child-crazy h told me he know longer wanted kids. No reason. Just changed his mind that's all.
My reaction to this was to say 'you're lying'. Even though I had never said those words before to the man I trusted implicitly, I knew that such a dramatic change of heart didnt 'just happen'.
So he said: 'Why would I lie? This is hard for me to say. I risk losing a lovely wife, home and life."
Because I knew (instinctively and logically) that the latter statement was true, it made me doubt my gut instinct about the lie.
After that, whenever he told me our marriage problems were due to the kids issue, (rather than the secret affair) I believed him.
Lots of waywards use something that is clearly true to cover up something you suspect is a lie.
Such as:
Its stupid to dip your pen into the company ink (true) So I would never do it! (false)
She is nowhere near as pretty and smart as you! (true) I would never look twice at someone that desperate (false)
I love you (true) so you should trust that that is enough (false)
Havent I always been honest up to now? (true) and I am just as honest still (false)
Im here because I want to be here (true) I dont want to be anywhere else (false)
That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.
Found this on another site, something I have found helpful in understanding WH's behaviour is not about me, it is ALL about him... Helps with seeing the wayward's behaviour for what it is.
Replace addicts with waywards, after all, they are one and the same. 1. Addicts lie 2. Addicts make excuses for their bad behaviour 3. Addicts are NOT in control of themselves 4. Addicts want one thing - more more, and again more 5. Addicts are master manipulators - of spouses, children, even their parents 5. Addicts don't care about long term 6. Addicts don't care about logic 7. Addicts are not reliable 8. Addicts lie 9. Addicts talk ONLY for three things : a. to pursue their addiction b. to pursue their addiction c. to pursue their addiction 10. Addicts lie 11. Addicts create walls to isolate themselves from anyone that may interfere with pusuit of their addiction a. Emotional walls - I'm done, I'm divorcing you, I don't love you b. Walls of Lies, stories, excuses c. Walls of wood and brick - they shut doors, stay away from home, dissappear for hours on end 12. Addicts lie 13 Addicts use people 14. Addicts don't care if they hurt people 15. Addicts are ill 16. Addicts aren't loyal or dependable 17. Did I mention that addicts lie? 18. Addicts recover
I question number 18 though... in my experience addicts do not always recover, or can take a very long time to do so... I would add "can" to this... Addicts CAN recover.
this is TERRIFIC! Every BS should have this taped to the fridge...!
this is TERRIFIC! Every BS should have this taped to the fridge...!
I had that thought too! I have it tucked in my handbag to read whenever I have the thought "WHY????" It answers questions I have about WH's words, choices, behaviour, etc. Once a BS can answer the question, they can continue on their journey to recovery... slowly in my case, but surely.
As a wayward myself, I have to say you are correct. I remember when I had to reveal the A to my BH, I was so emotionally wrapped up myself, I said a few of those things on your list. It took time (a week or two) of feeling so guilty that I finally came completely clean about all the little details. I was so scared that if he knew the whole truth, he would leave.
You are also correct in the fact that a true repenant wayward will do WHATEVER necessary, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, to prove themselves. Actions DO speak louder than words. I now do any and everything my BH asks of me.
Also, for all of you BSs, you must know that, if your WS tells you it is your fault, it is NEVER your fault. Thankfully, I didn't do that one to my BH. Were there probably needs not being met on both sides? Probably. In my case there were. HOWEVER, it is the job of a spouse to bring these needs to the attention of the other spouse. It is NEVER ok to go outside of a marriage. I chose to do it. 100% wrong, selfish, deceitful act. MY decision. NOT my BHs. Please always remember that it is the choice of the WS, not the BS.
The half-truths are what got me too, Indie! So much easier to believe those than outright lies.
In my case, I recognized all the signs of an affair: H's taking more interest in his physique, the hugging the edge of the other side of the mattress at night... the new clothes...
I knew all of it added up. Yet, I still believed his lies originally because there were grains of truth in them. My biggest mistake was thinking he was not in an affair but perhaps headed for one - and I could change that course if I "straightened up" quickly enough. I didn't see that his behaviors proved he was already involved!
My hope is that some new BS's will see themselves in this and wake up quickly to what's going on and find the motivation to implement the necessary measures needed - quickly!
Also, for all of you BSs, you must know that, if your WS tells you it is your fault, it is NEVER your fault. Thankfully, I didn't do that one to my BH. Were there probably needs not being met on both sides? Probably. In my case there were. HOWEVER, it is the job of a spouse to bring these needs to the attention of the other spouse. It is NEVER ok to go outside of a marriage. I chose to do it. 100% wrong, selfish, deceitful act. MY decision. NOT my BHs. Please always remember that it is the choice of the WS, not the BS.
I really like this, cause it is 100% true and honest. and i am a former WS, but this is the most important part and probably the part that most WS know most and most BS looking for answers cant see "Were there probably needs not being met on both sides? Probably. In my case there were. HOWEVER, it is the job of a spouse to bring these needs to the attention of the other spouse. It is NEVER ok to go outside of a marriage."
"I believe you need me you dont really love me. Its like you are a lost little boy who just needs something"
I am sorry but I just lost it, I replied with What the hell do i need from you?
And she said I knew you would get angry.
I have been sitting here doing the best plan A for 3 months........ I really do think I have it handled..... Waiting for plan B,D,orC: take the kids and move to bolize (sp) Of course plan C wouldn't be move to bolize, it would have to be Canada, Or cazakstan, or caracchi, or some other country that began with a C that didnt have extradition, I knew how to spell that one.
In my case, I recognized all the signs of an affair: H's taking more interest in his physique, the hugging the edge of the other side of the mattress at night... the new clothes...
YEP, the perpetual new clothes!!!.....the new hair......the new hair color........the dull stare when asked "So why won't you answer my questions about your feelings?" YEP!
Originally Posted by nc77
You are also correct in the fact that a true repentant wayward will do WHATEVER necessary, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, to prove themselves. Actions DO speak louder than words. I now do any and everything my BH asks of me.
Also, for all of you BSs, you must know that, if your WS tells you it is your fault, it is NEVER your fault. Thankfully, I didn't do that one to my BH. Were there probably needs not being met on both sides? Probably. In my case there were. HOWEVER, it is the job of a spouse to bring these needs to the attention of the other spouse. It is NEVER ok to go outside of a marriage. I chose to do it. 100% wrong, selfish, deceitful act. MY decision. NOT my BHs. Please always remember that it is the choice of the WS, not the BS.
It seems like every other post from newbie BSs on this forum seems to contain the phrase 'My WS says....'
This is ok (ish), except when followed by the fatal 'I do believe him/her'
The worst ones then follow up with a desire to 'trust'.
I therefore submit a golden rule.......
NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.
Now everyone of us has been there, been gaslighted, been lied to very convincingly by people who we love and know to have honest and upstanding pasts. (oh yes, it's not just yours!)
That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.
A truly repentent wayward will jump through hoops to prove themselves with actions like an NC letter or a polygraph.
Words are just too inadequate and they know that.
Here is my top ten of things waywards lie about
2)It was a PA, but we only did it once/oral/kissing I minimimize what I am ashamed of, though there is no logic in doing so. 3)It is your fault for not meeting my ENs This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex 4)Our marriage has been miserable for years This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex 5)I do not love you - I love the OP I have betrayed my morals and everything I once believed in. I must love the OP - or else I am just stupid for risking so much. Actually I am just greedy and stupid. Dont tell anyone. 6)I want a divorce But I will not bother filing. This is an idle threat to scare you into submission. 7) She/he is just a friend That I value more than your discomfort with their presence. 8) I need privacy, that's all So I can cheat on you 9) I dont need an NC letter because there is no contact Please dont make me give up my cake 10)You are jealous/controlling/demanding You are getting really warm and I dont like it.
Wow, does that hit home. Not all our on my list but, in some ways most are. To sum it all up, it is all your fault and drop it so I don't have to worry about the guilt I should feel.
I think its also important to keep in mind that aside from outright lies, lots of BSs get half truths or hidden truths.
I knew there was something wrong in my marriage when my child-crazy h told me he know longer wanted kids. No reason. Just changed his mind that's all.
My reaction to this was to say 'you're lying'. Even though I had never said those words before to the man I trusted implicitly, I knew that such a dramatic change of heart didnt 'just happen'.
So he said: 'Why would I lie? This is hard for me to say. I risk losing a lovely wife, home and life."
Because I knew (instinctively and logically) that the latter statement was true, it made me doubt my gut instinct about the lie.
After that, whenever he told me our marriage problems were due to the kids issue, (rather than the secret affair) I believed him.
Lots of waywards use something that is clearly true to cover up something you suspect is a lie.
Such as:
Its stupid to dip your pen into the company ink (true) So I would never do it! (false)
She is nowhere near as pretty and smart as you! (true) I would never look twice at someone that desperate (false)
I love you (true) so you should trust that that is enough (false)
Havent I always been honest up to now? (true) and I am just as honest still (false)
Im here because I want to be here (true) I dont want to be anywhere else (false)
Thanks Pep. And who did I learn this from? All the wonderful MBers on here.
I kid you not, I thought everyone on these boards was crazy when I turned up here. My husband would never cheat on me!
But everything you said would happen/ was happening turned out to be true. The script he gave me was predicted down to the letter. It isnt a hard one to learn and to pay forward to other BSs.
I think its also important to keep in mind that aside from outright lies, lots of BSs get half truths or hidden truths.
I knew there was something wrong in my marriage when my child-crazy h told me he know longer wanted kids. No reason. Just changed his mind that's all.
My reaction to this was to say 'you're lying'. Even though I had never said those words before to the man I trusted implicitly, I knew that such a dramatic change of heart didnt 'just happen'.
So he said: 'Why would I lie? This is hard for me to say. I risk losing a lovely wife, home and life."
Because I knew (instinctively and logically) that the latter statement was true, it made me doubt my gut instinct about the lie.
After that, whenever he told me our marriage problems were due to the kids issue, (rather than the secret affair) I believed him.
Lots of waywards use something that is clearly true to cover up something you suspect is a lie.
Such as:
Its stupid to dip your pen into the company ink (true) So I would never do it! (false)
She is nowhere near as pretty and smart as you! (true) I would never look twice at someone that desperate (false)
I love you (true) so you should trust that that is enough (false)
Havent I always been honest up to now? (true) and I am just as honest still (false)
Im here because I want to be here (true) I dont want to be anywhere else (false)
and so on.................
This is the art of gaslighting..
I have highlighted this for you quo, because your husband once risked his job for an affair. Now you think he will not do it again - because he says so.
sorry but addictions dont work that way.
We have had military waywards on here disobey direct orders to halt their affair. They have risked being court martialled. Listen to people who have hear this script many times before.
I think its also important to keep in mind that aside from outright lies, lots of BSs get half truths or hidden truths.
I knew there was something wrong in my marriage when my child-crazy h told me he know longer wanted kids. No reason. Just changed his mind that's all.
My reaction to this was to say 'you're lying'. Even though I had never said those words before to the man I trusted implicitly, I knew that such a dramatic change of heart didnt 'just happen'.
So he said: 'Why would I lie? This is hard for me to say. I risk losing a lovely wife, home and life."
Because I knew (instinctively and logically) that the latter statement was true, it made me doubt my gut instinct about the lie.
After that, whenever he told me our marriage problems were due to the kids issue, (rather than the secret affair) I believed him.
Lots of waywards use something that is clearly true to cover up something you suspect is a lie.
Such as:
Its stupid to dip your pen into the company ink (true) So I would never do it! (false)
She is nowhere near as pretty and smart as you! (true) I would never look twice at someone that desperate (false)
I love you (true) so you should trust that that is enough (false)
Havent I always been honest up to now? (true) and I am just as honest still (false)
Im here because I want to be here (true) I dont want to be anywhere else (false)
NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.
Other wayward liar tools of the trade.
Diversion & Distraction & Detour.
Not answering the question.
Are you having an affair?A yes or a no, thank you.
What? I would never do something like that. What makes you ask me that? I thought we trusted each other. Are you on your period? What's wrong with you? Are you back on that again? I love you.
When you ask your wayward ayes or no question. Insist on a yes or no answer. Do not get distracted/detoured diverted.
Who were you with last night?
I was playing pool.
When you ask your wayward a 'who'question and you get a 'where'response, repeat the question until you get a 'who' response.
Be very target savvy when asking your wayward questions.
If you ask a vague question such as:"What were you doing?" ... you will get a creative wayward response. They can respond without (exactly) lying. Such as "I went for a drive." Or, "I was thinking things over."
It's better to ask "yes or no" questions.
If you want to know "where", then ask about a specific location. "Were you at the pool parlor last night?" This is especially helpful if you have a GPS on their vehicle and you already know where they were. You already know they never went near the pool parlor.
If you ask a vague question such as:"What were you doing?" ... you will get a creative wayward response. They can respond without (exactly) lying. Such as "I went for a drive." Or, "I was thinking things over."
Good one, Pep. Unfortunately too many BSs get gaslighted into believing they are 'needy' 'clingy' or 'insecure'. The ENTIRE point of making someone believe this, is so that they get too scared to ask direct questions.
Ill put my hand up here and admit that I did ask this question
'Henry's Rule' is what I found the most interesting: "Everyone is willing to give you something for whatever it is they are hungry for."
"If you don't want to be deceived, you have to know what it is you are hungry for."
What a great segment to watch! Thanks for the share, Pepperband! I totally recognized some of the indicators from my own WH back when I originally confronted him. Wish I had known then, but I already knew deep in my heart something was up.
To every wayward reading this thread ..... Greetings and salutations !
It's the lies, stupid. It's the lies that are the relationship/marriage killers. You cannot lie your way to a good marriage/relationship.
If you can't be honest, then at the very least ..... shut up !
Spot on Pep! And the confusion and indignation when the betrayed don't want to be their "friend". The BS usually enters Plan B exhausted and needing respite from the lies and drama. By the end of my Plan A I just couldn't keep up the chit chat... I just couldn't bear to hear another lie. Any conversation was stilted because WH was guarding / lying about so many areas of his life. Yet WH always wanted me as part of his life, when I couldn't even ask what he did on the weekend and get an honest answer
This is a great thread and comparing the lies to what I was told by my XWH 2 1/2 years ago is spot on. However, I think it should be pointed out that the WS has a long time to craft their story and lies whereas the BS is stunned and in shock when discovery occurs. The BS couldn't be more vulnerable and is probably grasping at anything to make sense of what's happening. That includes hanging on the WS's every word in the hope that this terrible chaos and betrayal can be explained.
I was in no shape to decipher lies from facts. Whenever I'd faced strife before the person I turned to for clarity and comfort was my husband. Now, not only couldn't I turn to him, he was the cause for the strife. He wouldn't let up on his line, "You haven't loved me for years." He completely re-wrote our history together. I was in such shock I couldn't understand what he was saying. When I questioned what he was saying, he just became more emphatic about his stance.
I would suggest to those BSs out there who just experienced DD, try not to parse out statements the WS makes, looking for reasons to believe him/her. That's natural because you're looking for the person you love to come back. You'll do just about anything to turn back the clock to find "Normal" again.
Very simply, don't believe what the WS tells you. Assume it's all lies. They're clever and will throw in truths that you know are truths just to throw you off the track. Don't ask for proof, they'll fake it. Don't rely on your past of trust. There is no more trust. Don't try to pin them down. Seriously, all you have to remember from this thread, in those first days and even first few weeks, is don't believe what the WS says to you. Any of it. Then, come back here and read this thread again so you know what they all say and that it is a lie.
Very simply, don't believe what the WS tells you. Assume it's all lies. They're clever and will throw in truths that you know are truths just to throw you off the track. Don't ask for proof, they'll fake it. Don't rely on your past of trust. There is no more trust. Don't try to pin them down. Seriously, all you have to remember from this thread, in those first days and even first few weeks, is don't believe what the WS says to you. Any of it. Then, come back here and read this thread again so you know what they all say and that it is a lie.
New here to the forum. Love this post. Found out jan 5th my H had an A for 5 months. We are in recovery. Still resentful. Struggle with taking accountability for his unhappiness leading to the A. Seems unfair the betrayed has to suck it up, stay happy and meet the emotional needs of the wayward to make it all work. Fortunately I love him still or would bail. Need an outlet to vent I guess.
How do I start a thread. lol. Just reply to posts???
My H of 14 yrs. started a relationship last late August with a gal from the bank. I found out Jan 5th. We have had issues over lack of sexual fullfillment on his end due to his lack of emotional bonding with me. I wasn't always willing basically. His number one need is sexual fullfillment I now know. He claims he was vulnerable which lead to the affair. I get all that. I guess I could have been just as tempted but hello I didn't go there. He ended the A. Clean break. It's exposed. Its also exposed to the OW husband and boss so there is accountability on that end. Mt husband seems to not be in withdraw and happily moving on which is interesting. He says he was looking for a way out for awhile. I am trying on one hand to be very cautious and not be too trusting yet for awhile. Why isn't there any advice for betrayed spouses and how to hold it together during recovery of the marriage? I know anger, etc will turn him away. He doesn't want to talk about it,even calmly. He says we need to move forward. I agree but it seems unfair that I was cheated on then have to suck it up for his behalf. Just trying to make sense of it all.
How do I start a thread. lol. Just reply to posts???
My H of 14 yrs. started a relationship last late August with a gal from the bank. I found out Jan 5th. We have had issues over lack of sexual fullfillment on his end due to his lack of emotional bonding with me. I wasn't always willing basically. His number one need is sexual fullfillment I now know. He claims he was vulnerable which lead to the affair. I get all that. I guess I could have been just as tempted but hello I didn't go there. He ended the A. Clean break. It's exposed. Its also exposed to the OW husband and boss so there is accountability on that end. Mt husband seems to not be in withdraw and happily moving on which is interesting. He says he was looking for a way out for awhile. I am trying on one hand to be very cautious and not be too trusting yet for awhile. Why isn't there any advice for betrayed spouses and how to hold it together during recovery of the marriage? I know anger, etc will turn him away. He doesn't want to talk about it,even calmly. He says we need to move forward. I agree but it seems unfair that I was cheated on then have to suck it up for his behalf. Just trying to make sense of it all.
On the list of threads under "Surviving an Affair", click on "New Topic" on the upper left to start a new thread. Copy/paste what you wrote above and you're good to go.
As an aside, if he is still working with her then he needs to leave the job.
I was in no shape to decipher lies from facts. Whenever I'd faced strife before the person I turned to for clarity and comfort was my husband. Now, not only couldn't I turn to him, he was the cause for the strife. He wouldn't let up on his line, "You haven't loved me for years." He completely re-wrote our history together. I was in such shock I couldn't understand what he was saying. When I questioned what he was saying, he just became more emphatic about his stance.
I could have written this, pretty much ad verbatim.
Originally Posted by Reva
I would suggest to those BSs out there who just experienced DD, try not to parse out statements the WS makes, looking for reasons to believe him/her. That's natural because you're looking for the person you love to come back. You'll do just about anything to turn back the clock to find "Normal" again.
Very simply, don't believe what the WS tells you. Assume it's all lies. They're clever and will throw in truths that you know are truths just to throw you off the track. Don't ask for proof, they'll fake it. Don't rely on your past of trust. There is no more trust. Don't try to pin them down.
It seems waywards all work from the same script. Someone ought to publish it for all the BS's out there so they know what they're dealing with.
Originally Posted by Reva
Then, come back here and read this thread again so you know what they all say and that it is a lie..
I still do this with some frequency, just to remind myself I was not losing my mind...
How do I start a thread. lol. Just reply to posts???
My H of 14 yrs. started a relationship last late August with a gal from the bank. I found out Jan 5th. We have had issues over lack of sexual fullfillment on his end due to his lack of emotional bonding with me. I wasn't always willing basically. His number one need is sexual fullfillment I now know. He claims he was vulnerable which lead to the affair. I get all that. I guess I could have been just as tempted but hello I didn't go there. He ended the A. Clean break. It's exposed. Its also exposed to the OW husband and boss so there is accountability on that end. Mt husband seems to not be in withdraw and happily moving on which is interesting. He says he was looking for a way out for awhile. I am trying on one hand to be very cautious and not be too trusting yet for awhile. Why isn't there any advice for betrayed spouses and how to hold it together during recovery of the marriage? I know anger, etc will turn him away. He doesn't want to talk about it,even calmly. He says we need to move forward. I agree but it seems unfair that I was cheated on then have to suck it up for his behalf. Just trying to make sense of it all.
Michele, you need to start your own thread! I was in your place almost 3 months ago. I experience pretty much the same thing, I have the same frustration and the same questions...
This thread is so acurate and true. But, after reading this, it is making me question my progress with my FWW.
Three strong months into recovery (as it seems), things appear to be going much better than I had dreamed.
Here is what I perceive to be happening now: Total remorse, total committment, says she will do 'whatever it takes for as long as it takes to earn your trust and love', transparency (or so it seems), EP's in place, committment to MB, meeting each others EN's as we have never before done in our marriage.
That is why this thread is helpful but making me take a step back and evaluate.
Words SEEM to be backed by action. However, after a 9 month FR, my guard is still up pretty high, as it should be. I verify and validate everything to the best of my abilities.
The signs that the storm has passed are all there.
But has it really passed? When will the point come where things are indeed what they seem?
In the spirit of this thread I'll post WH response to my exposure to OW FB friends.
BS,
I cannot believe you have sent messages to OW's friends. You have breached both OW's and my privacy and reinforced to our friends that you are not behaving in a rational and sane manner which gives me grave concerns for the safety of my children.
I will be contacting my solicitor to discuss the appropriate action.
I am a grown man who is capable of making his own decisions. I left you before I started a relationship with OW the transition was simply two weeks which I lived in the house...
I first decided to leave you in 1997 and only hung around for the kids. I have no intention of ever reconciling the marriage and will be applying for divorce at the first available opportunity.
The only reason I ended up marrying you was because I got sucked into the "must look after her because she is grieving" thing ... I already didn't find you attractive in body and spirit at that time! It is a decision that I have regretted for the past twenty years. The only exception is my children!
I really don't like you. I don't even think enough of you to hate you!
I am concerned for the damage you are doing to our children with messages like "I am trying to get our family back together" (from DS6 along with a few other choice conversations).
It is a shame that you have chosen to embarass yourself in this manner. Perhaps you should seek professional help for your irrational behaviours and thinking. This will also help assist you in recognising that the marriage is over.
Amazing not only the re write of our history but the story gets better each time. Current version is he never wanted to marry me, the week before he wan't happy the last 15+ years.
The projections are mindboggling - I need professional help for my irrational behaviour and he wants to fire sale our assets and increase our mortgage to fund their affair.
Its really sad my efforts to fight for our family, protect our financial security, support children, teach them values and be honest is damaging, but exposing them to infidelity, lies and badmouthing me and notrecognising their pain isn't damaging
How about the string of text messages I received, out of the blue, unprovoked, while WH was on vacation with OW. He saw the kids a month ago, on Easter, after throwing a fit and causing a scene. Prior to that, maybe 3 months ago? He's a busy man, working to pay for child support and biweekly vacations with prostitutes. Who was home, taking care of the kids and dealing with real life at the time, while he was lying on the beach texting? Oh yeah - me.
"I'm not doing anything to damage the kids. You are the one who is damaging them because you are allowing the fact that I am in love with another woman to destroy you. I have a right to be happy. You're no fun to be around. You can't relax. The kids will be fine. Set a better example for them. Buck up and deal with life. Act like a grown up. I have done nothing to hurt my children. It is your refusal to move on that is hurting them. Go find someone, anyone, and move on."
He neglects to mention that up until 4 months ago he begged me NOT to move on, to wait for him to get his act together, he loved me and the kids and was working on it. Oh, and yes, grabbing the first married man I could get my hands on while I am still married, like his 13-year-old mentality OW, would definitely set a better example for my children of how to buck up and act like a grown up. And how to relax? Hmm . . . Well, maybe if my millionaire husband paid for my decadent lifestyle, my plastic surgeries, my shopping sprees, my cushy life so I could lie around with nothing to do but look up middle school boyfriends on Facebook and see if I could break up their families 25 years later just for fun, and then maybe if said husband was even good enough to stay home with the kids while I went off on vacation with my boyfriend every other week - someone else's husband who was delighted at the privilege to spend even more money on me and kiss my butt while I lie on the beach . . . yes, I think maybe I could learn to be a little more relaxed. I'll get right on that.
In the spirit of this thread I'll post WH response to my exposure to OW FB friends.
BS,
I cannot believe you have sent messages to OW's friends. You have breached both OW's and my privacy and reinforced to our friends that you are not behaving in a rational and sane manner which gives me grave concerns for the safety of my children.
I will be contacting my solicitor to discuss the appropriate action.
I am a grown man who is capable of making his own decisions. I left you before I started a relationship with OW the transition was simply two weeks which I lived in the house...
I first decided to leave you in 1997 and only hung around for the kids. I have no intention of ever reconciling the marriage and will be applying for divorce at the first available opportunity.
The only reason I ended up marrying you was because I got sucked into the "must look after her because she is grieving" thing ... I already didn't find you attractive in body and spirit at that time! It is a decision that I have regretted for the past twenty years. The only exception is my children!
I really don't like you. I don't even think enough of you to hate you!
I am concerned for the damage you are doing to our children with messages like "I am trying to get our family back together" (from DS6 along with a few other choice conversations).
It is a shame that you have chosen to embarass yourself in this manner. Perhaps you should seek professional help for your irrational behaviours and thinking. This will also help assist you in recognising that the marriage is over.
I thought I would re post this and add a few quotes from WH along the way to help show the illogical mind of a wayward. I hope this helps any new BS reading this thread to understand and accept their foggy babble is a re write of history. You have your memories and you really know the truth, try not to doubt yourself.
Quoted from WH a few days/week prior to DD:
"I don't know if I still love you"
"I did love you madly, but I am not there now"
"I simply do not love you anymore. I respect you as an intelligent caring person, who I once loved and the mother of our children. I do not believe you can fall back in love"
"We can be great friends moving forward"
This conflicts with his statements in his email above - didn't want to marry me, doesn't like me or think enough of me to hate me. When he announced moving out he stated that it would be silly to "maintain an illusion for his parents visit b/c his mother (retired pyschologist) would see through it" .... funny he now believes he fooled her for 20yrs.... he should be nominated for a grammy!
happyfuture, what a terrible letter to receive. I hope you don't believe a word of it! This is typical re-writing history, creating justifications and fog babble.
Rocketqueen, I know its wayward babble, its a total conflict of our history, his actions and what he has said in the past, even cards he's given me tell a different story. Its sad to think WH could write this. I posted on this thread hoping it might help anyone new to MB to hopefully understand that WS speak fogbabble and re write history.
I know when he does come out of the fog he is really going to struggle with his behaviour and the pain he has caused.
GREAT THREAD! I've got one who lies so much that he is convinced his lies are truth. He tells me he is going out for a bike ride yesterday and takes his cell phone with him. Firs time in 15 years he goes out for a bike ride and when I ask him if he called her, he says "who?"
It is pathetic and almost laughable. What is even more pathetic is that he is SO STUPID to believe that I am actually that stupid.
It seems like every other post from newbie BSs on this forum seems to contain the phrase 'My WS says....'
This is ok (ish), except when followed by the fatal 'I do believe him/her'
The worst ones then follow up with a desire to 'trust'.
I therefore submit a golden rule.......
NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.
Now everyone of us has been there, been gaslighted, been lied to very convincingly by people who we love and know to have honest and upstanding pasts. (oh yes, it's not just yours!)
That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.
A truly repentent wayward will jump through hoops to prove themselves with actions like an NC letter or a polygraph.
Words are just too inadequate and they know that.
Here is my top ten of things waywards lie about
1) It was an EA only It was a PA, but if I tell you the truth that will have to stop and you will probably leave me. 2)It was a PA, but we only did it once/oral/kissing I minimimize what I am ashamed of, though there is no logic in doing so. 3)It is your fault for not meeting my ENs This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex 4)Our marriage has been miserable for years This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex 5)I do not love you - I love the OP I have betrayed my morals and everything I once believed in. I must love the OP - or else I am just stupid for risking so much. Actually I am just greedy and stupid. Dont tell anyone. 6)I want a divorce But I will not bother filing. This is an idle threat to scare you into submission. 7) She/he is just a friend That I value more than your discomfort with their presence. 8) I need privacy, that's all So I can cheat on you 9) I dont need an NC letter because there is no contact Please dont make me give up my cake 10)You are jealous/controlling/demanding You are getting really warm and I dont like it.
Can I please invite others to share lies they were told/told themselves that were really convincing and why they should NOT be believed without proof?
Just re-read this again - it is so good to remind yourself every now and then what we are dealing with.
Waywards lie about everything. And they will continue to lie when presented with evidence that any sane person would think would shock them into an admission. The lies just pile up: lies upon lies upon lies. And if they can't think of a lie in answer to your question, they just look at you blankly until you give up.
This is why Dr Harley says not to spend time thinking about what a wayward does or says. It makes no sense and will drive you crazy.
Just be sure to protect yourself. For assets that are now in his name, do not expect him to comply with the divorce decree and divide them. Best way to protect yourself is to have a matching set of assets in your own name.
This is why Dr Harley says not to spend time thinking about what a wayward does or says. It makes no sense and will drive you crazy.
Just be sure to protect yourself. For assets that are now in his name, do not expect him to comply with the divorce decree and divide them. Best way to protect yourself is to have a matching set of assets in your own name.
No need to ask how I know this :-(
Living Well this is such good advice for all BSs. I am working on getting a court order to freeze our marital assets now.....but it is going to take work to get it enforced across three african countries