Ok, I first discovered this site in 2001 after my first separation. I've been a lurker all these years. Please excuse me if I ramble...there is so much to say. I've been married for 13 years and have been in the military for 17. Our marriage has been like a roller coaster over that time, but I have always tried to keep it together. Some quick background info; my wife left me in 2001 because she said she was unhappy. She was gone one month and we seemed happy until 2009. She has never been the type to communicate very well. She always held in her feelings until she finally decided to explode. She has been a stay at home mom our whole marriage. She is 33 and was 20 when my oldest was born. In 2009 she went out with friends and said she would be back by midnight. My son asked for his mom at 1:30AM so I got worried because I was asleep and she wasn't back yet. She finally came home at 2:30AM and we fought. That brought out all types of feelings that she had stored up from over the years and caused us to separated. Right before she left, I discovered her first affair. She then moved to her mom's and we took turns with the kids every other week for about 3 months.

I took her back and we went to counseling. She said she would spend the rest of her life making it up to me and she loved me so much. I told her I just wanted us to be equal partners and for us to have a good relationship. This past April, she got a job working for the gym. I supported her and was happy for her. In July she met a guy there and started emailing back and forth. I first suspected something at the end of August. It wasn't until Sept 15th that I woke up while she was taking a shower and checked her phone. I found emails saying they had so much to lose and they love each other. I was devastated once again. I went back and forth about wanting to end the marriage and I actually filed the paperwork. The OM is also married with 5 kids. My W told me that it only happened once and that it's over. She emailed him and sent me the responses saying that she needed to work on her marriage and he said have a good life.

As of last Monday, she is living in a 1BR apt. She said she has never been happy and that I can't make her happy until a week or two ago, she said that this is just a separation and she would go back to counseling. She even told the kids that she would try to work on things. I am very distraught because I still believe that she may be seeing the OM . I don't have proof because she uses her smart phone to do all over her contact and has since put a password on it. Over the last week she has spent time over my place, but spent the night in her apt. She spent Saturday and Saturday evening with me and left Sunday evening with the kids and had me over for dinner.

Every time my W has been unhappy and has wanted out of the marriage, I have been the one to repair it. I pray multiple times per day and hope that she will come back around, but it's hard to say if that will ever happen. I have been kind, courteous, respectful and loving like the Bible says I should be. Part of me feels like I'm being taken advantage of because of my kindness. I'm at a crossroad where I don't know if I should serve the papers or keep trying because I am not ready to let go. I love my family and I spend a lot of my time with them. I haven't even been able to deal with the pain of the affair because I'm trying to work on saving my marriage. Statistically, it doesn't look good for me. My wife says to have faith and maybe one day we will work our way back to each other. I'm sure I left out some details, but that's the bulk of it. Thank you for listening.

Did you ever expose any of these affairs? Have you exposed the current one?

She's cake eating and will continue to do so as long as you let her.

Time to expose the affair and track down the OM and expose to his family and friends and wife, if he has one.

I would consult a lawyer and have papers ready to file for abandonment and request full custody and child support.

Hi helpthelostdads,

I did expose the affair and I confronted the OM. I have talked with the lawyer. I really didn't want to divorce. I was hoping to restore the marriage somehow. I live in CA and don't believe that the courts will side with me. I did help her move because I was trying to be supportive of the separation in hopes of reconciliation. She has the kids this week so I don't believe that would be considered abandonment.

Fixed it for you. She needs adequate housing for those kids, a 1BR apartment doesn't cut it. Get your kids, stop the insanity in their lives.

Women need guys who are TOUGH and FIGHT FOR THEM, not roll-overs who feed us cake.

What do you mean tough and fight for them? I'm a combat veteran in the Marine Corps. What are you suggesting?

You helped her move out!

GJM, to whom has the affair been exposed? What was the OM's wife's response? And does she know that your wife has moved out to pursue this affair with her husband?

wow...harsh...ok, I can deal with that.

I helped her move out because it's the right thing to do. She is the mother of my children.

The affair has been exposed to family and friends. The wife is trying to decide if she wants to divorce the OM and she is very upset as well. I don't talk to her. I can't say for sure if she moved out to pursue the affair. She has been here the majority of the time with me and the kids. I'm not naive enough to say that it's not happening. I was just trying to see how I could reconcile not investigate. I don't have control over my wife or the OM. I work through prayer.

GJM, have you personally spoken to the OMW? And what have you told your family and children about her affair? I assure you she has moved out to pursue her affair.

I would disagree that it was the right thing to help her move out. That implies endorsement which is not good for her or you. Dr Harley discussed that issue with another betrayed husband in this radio clip: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2815


You should be investigating to find out what she is doing. You have a right to know what she does. Additionally, you have a moral obligation to protect your family from her evil. you can't very well do that if you don't start fighting against her affair. It is your job to protect your marriage and your children from her corruption. She has lost her mind so you are ALL they have.

GJM, it is real important that you stop enabling her affair. Your complacent approach comes across as a lack of caring. If she ever comes out from the fog, she will not remember your enabling fondly.

I would ask you to reconsider the thinking behind this. Is it the right thing to abandon your children and your marriage for an adulterous affair? If you agree that is wrong, wouldn't it stand to reason to helping her do that is wrong?

If she wanted you to drive her to the crack house to get high, would you do it because "She is the mother of my children?" Or would you refuse to cooperate when she behaves in ways that are self destructive and destructive to you and your children?

In the book Surviving An Affair, the husband helped his wayward wife move not long before he implemented a plan B

What do you mean tough and fight for them? I'm a combat veteran in the Marine Corps. What are you suggesting?

Firstly, God bless you, and THANK YOU for your service.

Now, I'm not going to be suggesting anything that should be unclear.

STOP THINKING IN TERMS OF HONOR AND FIDELITY, MARINE!

She has slipped into a netherworld where neither of those are part of her life. She has mutated into a selfish, immature creature, sampling a little bit of hubby/family, a little bit of POSOM, as in a buffet.

SHE MOVED OUT TO BETTER MANAGE HER GETTING BONED BY ANOTHER MAN! PLEASE, DON'T TELL ME THAT COMMUNAL FUNDS ARE SUPPORTING HER LITTLE SCREW-AROUND PLAY-PAD!

FIGHTING in affair-termination terms means telling everyone in her life what she's doing. It means cutting her off from all possible means of support. Her current life-style has enabled her affair; your mission is (effectively) to ruin that life starting today.

Here's a synopsis of what you must expect to do:

NEVERGUESSED�S BETRAYED HUSBAND SURVIVAL KIT

1- KEEP ALL THESE ARRANGEMENTS SECRET FROM YOUR WAYWARD WIFE!
2 � Put a keylogger on any computer you can access that she might use.
3 � Put a spy program on any cell that she might use. (�Eblaster� can cover #4 as well.)
4 � Put a GPS on her car, reporting to your computer.
5 � Put a VAR in her car, and in any room she might use to take �personal� calls
6 � Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it in your possession and �on� whenever in her presence.
7 � Put together an e-address list of anyone who might have influence on her � parents, siblings (sisters, especially), coworkers, college friends, clergy, hairdresser, anyone.
8 � Put together a similar list for the POSOM.
WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE,
9 � Put together the electronic evidence for each AP.
10 - Write a cover note for your wife�s contacts, to the tune of: �I must unhappily inform you that my wife, XXXXXX, is carrying on an illicit affair with YYYYYY. I am hoping to recover our marriage, and ask if you have any influence over her, to urge her to abandon her cheating lifestyle and return to me and our family. Her cell number is 111-222-3333�
11 � Write a similar note to POSOM�s contacts.
12 � Send out both packages, to all contacts at one time.
13 � Brace yourself.

You are absolutely correct. I tried to get her to stay, but she said that she was uncomfortable there and that she felt like she was walking on egg shells. I haven't told the kids about her affair because I didn't feel like they were old enough to be able to handle it. I told our family and friends that she had an affair with another man. Her family supports her no matter what she does. I haven't been complacent, but it's been two months now since I found out and I have accounted for her time. I have checked phone records and her email and FB. She may be more secret about it, but I can't say for sure.

I have always been the macho type and have always taken a stand for what's right. This time around I feel weak and helpless. I don't know what to do. I want her to come home and try to work out the marriage. She still visits me and texts and calls throughout the day.

BTW I just found out that the other BS decided to work through her marriage to the OM. I found out through a co-worker. I need help to fix my marriage not run away from it.

NeverGuessed,

That seems like a lot of work and a lot of money, which I do not have.

Did you listen to the radio clip? Dr Harley gave that man HELL for helping his wife move out. He routinely tells men to NOT help their wayward wives move out. Did Dr Harley tell the man in SAA to help his wife move out?

Did you tell the OM's wife?

And yes, your wife did move out to pursue her affair. She is just hiding it better.

How old are your children?

And have these friends and family members called her to try to talk some sense into her?

MelodyLane,

Kids are 13,11,8

OM's wife knows and decided to work it out.

These family and friends support my W. Mine tell me to leave.

Plenty old enough to be told about their mother's adultery. They should be told all about the OM and why their mother moved out. She moved out to conduct her affair.



OM's wife does not know. She does NOT know your wife has moved out to conduct the affair and that the affair is still on. You NEED to call the OM's wife and kill this affair. She only knows the lies her husband tells her. She can't very well stop the affair if she doesn't know.


So they have told your wife to end her affair? Or do they even know about her affair? Have you asked them to help you?

I have read that judges dispise telling children about affairs. That would destroy any chance I have of reconciliation. I don't have access to the OM's wife. The OM works near me, but they live over 50 miles away.

Her family is not helping with the affair at all. I'm not sure the affair is still going on. Like I said, she has been around me most of her time. I'm not saying nothing can happen, but she has gone from wanting a divorce to a separation and going to counseling.

Can I save this marriage? I'm afraid to tell everyone I see about our private life because it's embarrassing to me and the kids. I only told the ones close to us.

Has her family said that they support her breaking up your family for a married man with five kids???

If so, they need to go on the NC list if you two work this out.

YOU need to contact OMW. Personally. Who cares how much 'work' it is? That's like saying, "I want to work this out, but only if it's easy for me."

Is that what you're saying?

CWMI

Her friends and family do need to go on the NC list. The work I was talking about is the investigating work. She has stated that the affair was over two months ago and I haven't found any evidence of anything further.

I'm not saying I want the easy road.

I'm still having a hard time with telling the kids part. How will that benefit them? It will devastate them and cause them to choose sides. Somebody make sense of this for me.

They are already devastated, only they don't know why just yet. Telling them isn't the devastating thing done to them; mommy taking another woman's husband as a lover and moving out is.

Telling them gives them a truth about their lives that you are currently withholding. People, even kids, need truth to make correct choices. You don't have to vilify your wife to them. Just tell them the truth as to why their lives are upside down.

And when we go to court and the judge tells me how stupid I was for telling them? The courts don't care who is at fault. Your advice is sending me to divorce and killing any chance I have to reconcile. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but how does this help me? From a Christian stand point I feel like I am doing God's work and he will unveil the plan for my marriage.

I know what I can do to divorce and I know the consequences. What I don't know is how to get my wife to come home.

Thats ok,. psychologists don't agree. And in all my years here, no BS has ever had a problem legally with telling children the truth. And if any judge told me I had to lie to my children to whitewash the crimes of a wayward, I would tell him to go to hell.


No, it would not. That will not stop your wife if she is serious. And it very well may stop her affair. We have had many affairs ended because of the influence of the children.


Of course you have access to her.


Like I said, the affair is in full swing. That is why she moved out. If you don't believe me, just watch her apartment for a few days.

But if you are serious about saving your marriage, you need to stop enabling your wife by keeping her secret. CAll the OM's wife, tell your children, enlist all your family and friends to help. This is very salvagable, but you have to stand up for your marriage and expose it.

here

Can you tell me how lying to children benefits them? Lies and adultery are poison to children. By lying to them about the source of tension in their family you are teaching them to be dishonest. That comes at their expense and your wife's expense. It does not help her to cover up her crime. All you do is ENABLE her.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

How has your current plan helped you? Do you not recognize that your inaction is destroying your marriage? You are in a terrible place and you are on here lecturing people who have saved their marriages using these tactics. You are the falling down drunk who lectures the sober people in AA on the virtues on quitting drinking. If you are serious about saving your marriage, why don't you admit your methods have not worked and listen to people who have saved their marriages?


From a Christian standpoint you are aiding and abetting evil. That is NOT God's work. As it says in 1Timothy, only an infidel will not take care of his family. You are allowing this OM to destroy your family without a fight. If a man broke in and was raping your daughter would you sit there like a lump and say you were waiting for God to unveil his plan for your daughter?

Using God as an excuse to sit there and do nothing is shameful. And NON Christian.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." ( John 3:19-21)



No, you don't. You have no idea at all. You don't understand that your enabling of the affair is leading you to divorce NOW. Your actions [ie: enabling] are the most likely to lead to divorce.

Kids blame THEMSELVES for marital problems if you don't give them an explanation that makes sense. They also are anxious and unsure when they feel they aren't being told the truth.

Let your children know that this separation has nothing to do with them and everything to do with her affair. Let your children know that they can count on you to tell them the truth.

My kids' pediatrician and counselor all agreed with Dr Harley on this. I was terrified to tell my 9 year old son but I haven't regretted telling him at all. I had no idea how anxious he was because he didn't understand what was going on. Of course, he was upset because of the affair but not telling him what was going on was making a bad situation WORSE.

That's deep stuff. I definitely have a lot to think about. This would cause a lot of pain to me and rip the family apart even more. And if she does come back, it could be for the wrong reasons. Financial, payback, etc.... My lawyer even said that here in CA, the judge would not side with me. She makes 1/3 of what I make and I would have to move out of my 4BR that I have for the kids because I won't be able to afford the same size place. We would both end up hurting financially. Plus there's alimony and CS. And being in the military, I don't have the same rights as everyone else. All she would have to do is complain to my command and I would be screwed.

We eat dinner together and spend time together. Do you think I should stop doing that stuff?

So divorce is not painful? Having your wife leave you for an OM is not "painful?" Are you kidding me? Your family is already "ripped apart," Sir. Did you notice that? What is ripping it apart is a secret affair. That is not "painful" to you and your kids?


No, if she comes back it will be for the right reasons. Because her affair is over and she wants to work on the marriage. That is the goal here. But you have to first kill the affair.


And this is where you are headed if you don't man up and start fighting for your marriage. You have surrendered at the first shot, Sir. That is ok if you are French, but if you want to save your marriage you are going to have to do some legwork here.

And find a lawyer who won't roll over. Most lawyers take the easiest, softest way because they are lazy. Find a lawyer who isn't lazy. We have men on this forum who win all the time.

GJM,

I can tell you from experience that there is a really good chance your kids already know, they saw something or read something etc. Kids internalize their pain sometimes not just to protect you but their siblings as well.

This is also supported by many of the threads on MB where the posters write about the relief their children feel when they are finally told the truth.

My FIL is in his 80's and just not too long ago my W talked to him about what she saw when she was under 5! Children can repress their pain well into adulthood. Even after all those years it was like removing a splinter.

God Bless
Gamma

You can't see the irony of these two statements? You should NEVER have helped her in her desire to be a single woman! She's NOT a single woman - she's YOUR WIFE. She needs to be at home with her husband and her children!

Ok so this is what I have so far: tell everyone about the affair. Tell the kids the truth. When and how should I tell them? They are with her this week. What do I do when my W starts making my life even worse? What if she really did end the affair when she says she did? Wouldn't doing those things make things even worse after she said she will work on things and go back to counseling? Then there's the financial aspect of it. I have so much anxiety. She pays her rent and utilities. We have to share groceries because we can't afford them separately. You think she's holding on to me as a back up? We talk and share affection. Boy, I'm so lost!

Do you have a court order mandating 50/50 custody?

GJM,

Think of this way, DISHONESTY is what allows an affair to thrive, why should you be obligated to be dishonest to your kids just to protect your W and OMs reputation?

As to where and when just get it done.

OM is attacking your family as certainly as if he was staging a home invasion. He is a blood sucker who cares only for himself.

God Bless
Gamma

Where? I just read through Chapter 6 again and don't see that. I don't remember EVER seeing that in SAA. Can you give me the page #?

page 45 about 7th paragraph.

"Because I had prepared Jon for this turn of events, he was able to be condsiderate of her feelings and even help her move."

It is way out of context but it was when Sue moved out and found out it was not the thing she really wanted when reality hit.

Why are you letting your three kids stay in a one bedroom apartment for the week? Is this a one time deal? What is the arrangement? This is not something I would be OK with. What did your atty say about this?

Thanks! I looked and looked for it. When he advises BH's he is quite adamant they not help them move or pay for the move typically. But he doesn't make that clear in that passage. He does advise them to be considerate, but he doesn't advise them to help or to finance the move. I am going to send him an email.

Yes, I also sent an email that they need SAA on kindle because most of the people need that book like yesterday and it is not available that way.

I had to wait 10 days for it and it felt like a lifetime.

I agree he does not typically advise that, it is why it stuck out in my mind so much when I read it.

GJM, when you read the whole chapter you will see that he had followed a bunch of steps before this advice. This was the last ditch effort to get Jon's wife to realize that living a life alone was not what she wanted after all. You have not done all the steps before this part to make moving out the worst choice. In fact, she is living the life because you are still giving her what she needs from you and letting her have her cake.

Me too! I sent them an email about a month ago about this using your very reasoning.

GJM, who is this attorney? Is s/he a experienced divorce attorney?

I just re-read your thread, and I am finding it very hard to believe that a good divorce attorney would have advised you to allow your WW to have the children for the week. If your attorney is already telling you that a judge won't "side" with you (I am not even sure WHAT that means since there are so many issues in divorce) then s/he is probably not a good tough atty and you need to talk to someone else. My first atty was not very tough or experienced and I found someone better...much better...

A good friend of mine was able to prevent her WH from having overnight visitation until he had appropriate housing as someone else mentioned. A one bedroom for three children of those ages is not appropriate.

Why in the heck are you helping her with groceries?

You are going to have to get tough here and STOP enabling. And the ONLY reason that she would have moved out was to conduct her affair more freely. Don't believe for one second because she agreed to counseling that she has ended this affair.

Whose name is her phone under? Who pays for it? Does she have it password locked and what model is it?

This is a lot to soak in....initially, we decided to divorce and I filed. I felt so guilty afterward that I never served her the paper work. There is no court order. We agreed on the following. 50/50 Joint/legal custody. No alimony. Retirement rights waived. I kept all of the furniture in the house minus part of our sectional. My W would have had her family help her move if I didn't. At the time I felt like we were amicable and were in agreement about everything. Tonight my son asked me if my W was having an affair. I couldn't bring myself to tell him because he instantly started to cry and I panicked. I just told him I was doing everything I could to work things out. I know, I'm chicken.

As far as the apt goes, my attorney said that as long as the place is clean, a judge won't side with me just because of the size that it is. He said the boys could be in one room and my wife and daughter in another. I personally have a problem with it, but I don't know what I can do. The money that was used to set up her apartment was her half of savings. I don't give her money. I pay bills and groceries with my pay check.

I know you all are familiar with the signs of an ongoing affair. And I know that many of you believe that it's still going on. At this point, do I keep telling everyone that she's still having the affair when I don't have any more proof? Now that she's moved out, what can I do differently?

SusieQ,
The attorney was from men's divorce help. I help with groceries for the kids. How can I stop her from seeing the kids if she becomes forceful? They don't want to be there either, but I want them to have both parents in their lives. I would like to get tough if it is the legal way. A mom can mess up 100 times and not lose her kids. A dad only gets one chance.

When I say side with me, I mean the judges try to give 50/50 custody as much as possible. I would want more than that in order for them to live with me, but I have no money to hire an attorney. I was lucky that one of the kids I coach in football has a dad that is an attorney.

To add to DDay, when I was asking all the questions, W was forthcoming and gave me all of the answers I had asked. She said she hadn't seen the OM for 3 weeks and I asked about the love part. She said she didn't love him. I asked why she said it, but she said because he said nice things to her. She also said that I never looked at her the same again after her first affair. I never once threw that in her face. I thought things were going pretty well. Then I was blind sided.

First off, since there is no court order for your sons to be dragged from their home to her flop house, I would stop sending them there. That is not in their best interest. A better solution is to allow her visitation on Wednesday night from 5 to 8 and Saturday or Sunday afternoons. She can come pick the kids up from your home and return them. Stop dragging your kids out of their safe beds to accommodate her filthy affair. That is not fair to them.

Stop giving her money.


You need to expose the affair. But I am very concerned that you can handle that. I don't mean that in a mean way, but you have tried so hard to appease her that I am concerned you can handle the pressure under fire. Will you be able to handle her fury when she finds out you exposed the affair?


Has he already been exposed to the OM over there? I am sorry you have lied to your kids.

Your wife is a liar. So this is her SECOND AFFAIR?

How can I keep the kids from going over there? I take them to school and she picks them up. She gets off of work at 12 or 1 and I don't get off until 4. I have told her to leave them here and she can visit them, but she says "I'm not leaving my kids."

You're right about me handling the exposure part. I'm very emotional right now. I've been crushed for the second time. I can't say if I can handle the fury at this moment.

And no the OM hasn't been around my kids. I haven't seen any indication that he is even around. It's been this way for two months now.

What time do your kids get off school? As far as I am concerned, your wife doesn't get a say about the kids since she has left.


Are you trained to control your emotions under fire in your combat training?

Have you asked your kids?

Yes, this is the second time. The first time was 2009. And to answer your previous question about who pays for the phone, I do. It's a Samsung Infuse that's password protected.

What happened the last time she had an affair?

GJM, what do they teach you to do when you are under fire? How do you control your emotions and do what needs to be done? Did you have such training?

It's important to note there that "helping her move" was followed by Plan B.

It would probably be very difficult to "Plan B" a spouse if they remained in the home. By helping his WW move, the BH ensured that it was HE who remained in the home, with the WW outside looking in.

In the situation we're discussing now, there appears to be no plan. At least, not yet.

MelodyLane,
Combat is much different than dealing with a WW. I'd rather be in combat than go through this. There is no emotion to deal with other than fear in combat. You just lead and survive. I have no training in dealing with this matter.

ManInMotion,
I did ensure I remained in the home so the kids have their own rooms. They have parks everywhere on base and a movie theater that costs 2 or 3 bucks. There's a place to buy groceries and whatever else they need. I wanted them to be able to come to a stable environment that was best for them. I was hoping that I could save my marriage, but it seems like everyone is telling me I'm doing everything wrong.

GJM,

Sorry if it feels like all we are doing is telling you that your doing it wrong. Its not of our spite or malice but concern.

But consider the fact that we've been where you are, used the tools on this site by Dr. Harley and alot of us have gotten positive results.

What we are asking you to do... it seems to be counter-intuitive at first. I so get that feeling...

When you see our suggestions ..you think we are asking you to draw a green line with a red pen.

BUT MelodyLane and many others are on your thread, so your chances in dealing with this have skyrocketed much higher than before you started posting here.

When you mentioned exposure I just wanted to clarify that its not to expose to everyone. You dont go buying a billboard, you expose just to family/friends/co-workers/clergy who have influence in your WW's life.

Your WW has engaged in another affair because she learned that there were no consequences for her last one. If you desire to make this marriage work, there are going to have to be consequences this time around to prevent a third/fourth/fifth time.

<Face-Palm> ...exposure also includes a list of people in OM's life who can persuade him to stop being a home-wrecking douche-bag ... like his WIFE, his family, his clergy, his workplace.

Workplace is only applicable if hes boning his customers or co-workers at his place of employment

Thank you RMX,

I don't really feel like I've gotten any real suggestions. I've heard a lot of slander towards my W (she deserves it) and how enabling I am. I installed keylogger software on the computer, but she mostly uses the smartphone which I no longer have access to.

If I can get some clarification as to what to do, I would appreciate that (places to read, steps to take, etc).

I feel like maybe I left out some information to help you guys help me. I'm not sure though. My W says that she's not happy and doesn't think I can make her happy and that the affair didn't mean anything. I've been so wrapped up in saving the marriage, I haven't had time to deal with the affair.

OM is also a Marine. It disgusts me that he would do this to his family and mine.

I feel like I have wasted my time here today if that is how you feel. I spent alot of time with you today for nothing apparently.

I wish you the best.

If this is what you think, then I suggest you re-read your thread. More than once if necessary. I re-read my thread many many times and you have gotten a lot more advice in one day than I ever did.

Some things off the top of my head that were suggested:

~ speak to OMW again
~ expose to your children
~ set up a limited visitation schedule
~ speak to another (better) lawyer and learn your rights

A lot of people posted to you that you have to STOP going along with whatever your WW wants. I don't think you get it if you think we were just bashing her for the fun of it.

Reread the thread.

MelodyLane,
I'm sorry if you feel like I wasted your time. Your input is valuable to me. Please understand that I'm an emotional wreck right now and I'm trying to process everything you all have said to me. I do appreciate your time.

We've seen that emotional wreck frequently here, GJM. Listen closely if you want to pull out of that state. I promise you MelodyLane and the "veterans" here can help you. They may tell you some things you don't want to hear along the way.

If a post bothers you, that is probably the most important post for you to hear.

No one has slandered your wife. That would be based in false and malicious comments about her. The folk here are trying to paint a picture to you of what you are dealing with when your spouse is wayward.
They all are remarkably alike in what they say and do and your wife sounds dead on script.
That is why the posters are so very intensely trying to explain to you how to proceed.

I appreciate the input from all of you. I will go back and read all suggestions again. My W and I have been amicable and I'm afraid that anything negative that I do will cause a distance between us. She has said that she is trying to communicate with me and spend time with me so she's not distant in hopes that we will get back together. She said she just needs some space to clear her head. She has a 6 month lease on her apt and said that if things work out between us before then, she will break the lease and come back.

Neither did I....but your combat training relates as this is a war for your wife and family.

Objective #1: Kill the affair.

It is impossible to achieve any progress while a third party enemy remains in your marriage.

Your weapons are not your fists but your brain.


Missions:

1. Exposure (what about OM's grandparents, his friends on facebook, his ex-girlfriends, his teachers, his boss...brainstorm who else might help...you never know who will provide the most influence persuading him to stop this insane destructive behavior.

2. Operation OM Dumpster: Single OM's notoriously disappear once the situation just becomes more trouble than it's worth. There are ways to do this within the law. You could file temporary orders mandating that he is not to be around your children, file a restraining order to boot, go to the league and don't just talk to them but write letters and threaten legal action if something isn't done, have a friend follow OM with a camera taking pictures like he's a private investigator (but you want OM to catch him spying on him and make him feel like this crap just isn't worth it). You want OM to have the impression that the free "ride" is over....and it's never going to stop.

*by the way...as far as worrying about whether or not it sucks that your wife didn't choose to come home and it came down to getting OM to walk away...don't sweat it. The mission is END THE AFFAIR....recovery can only commence once that is accomplished. How it is accomplished is completely irrelevant to the recovery process. Your wife is making a huge mistake and you, as her husband, are TRYING to save her. You may not succeed (which is her loss) but in that case, you'll be all the better for the undertaking.

3. Operation back-side: Meanwhile on the back-side you'll be doing everything possible to insure your custody rights (and property rights) are protected to the utmost. You do not have to concede legal rights in your effort to save your marriage. In fact, doing so only makes losing such rights AND your children AND your money more likely. The harder you fight the more likely she will wake up sooner than later. It's called bring the bottom up and the sooner she realizes you are a fit and competent legal opponent the MORE she will respect you as a man (which is ATTRACTIVE actually). I'm not actually saying "file tomorrow" but rather, while fighting to save your marriage you must also fight a competent and diligent legal fight on the down low such that you (and your children) aren't screwed in the event you do end up divorced.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- as military...you'll LOVE reading Mortarman's story

Don't you realize your WW is saying things so you build false hopes? That the space WW needs is so she can date and do the OM? That you won't expose? That WW is stringing you along as her back up plan? That WW builds a fear in you so you agree with an easy divorce for her?

She has said that she is trying to communicate with me and spend time with me so she's not distant in hopes that we will get back together. She said she just needs some space to clear her head...and said that if things work out between us before then, she will break the lease and come back.

Dude, cheaters LIE - continuously and fervently. I would respectfully urge you to understand that FACT, and give less credence to her bilge than to the advice you're getting here.

Let me translate her pronouncements into cheater-speak:

She has said that she is trying to placate me and spend less time with me so she's more distant in hopes that she can cement her nascient relationship with OM. She said she just needs some space to clear some room to manuever. She has a 6 month lease on her apt and said that if things do not work out between them, she will break the lease and come back.

I mean seriously: She moved out so she can better communicate and spend time with you??? In what bizarro world does that make sense?

PS: Like a person suffering from a disease seeking medical help, YOU came HERE (we didn't search you out) because you instinctively knew you were in serious trouble, and we had the program to effect a cure. And for some reason, you as the patient are telling us we're wrong? ("Doctor, it hurts when I do this." "OK, first stop doing that." "What? I've always done that! I can't stop now!" )

What kind of plan do you think He's going to unveil? Are you under the impression God might be planning for you to divorce after your marriage dies to an affair? I assure you this is not God's plan, but I assure you that YOU have to take action to bring about the marriage that God wants. Don't pin your inaction on Him and blame Him for you not doing what needs to be done.

If you want to know God's plan for marriage you can read your Bible. But you'll find that you are expected to ACT.

GJM,

I too was/am in your shoes. What you are being told to do is not unbiblical at all. God allowed you to find this web site did he not? God led you to these wonderful people giving wisdom and knowledge over the problems you are dealing with right? Please listen to them. I did not when I first came here. I am now in a tougher spot, and must look back and say what if I had listened sooner. I am learning to become more dependent on God also. But please listen to the wisdom the people here are speaking. Fight the good fight. Again nothing I have found in the bible contradicts anything these people are telling you to do. God hates divorce you are fighting to stop that right. I was in your shoes so much. Yes she is nice and amicable your allowing her to have her cake and eat it too. I was and still am fighting it. Not only are you letting her have the cake too, but your holding the plate for her.

GJM,

I too was/am in your shoes. What you are being told to do is not unbiblical at all. God allowed you to find this web site did he not? God led you to these wonderful people giving wisdom and knowledge over the problems you are dealing with right? Please listen to them. I did not when I first came here. I am now in a tougher spot, and must look back and say what if I had listened sooner. I am learning to become more dependent on God also. But please listen to the wisdom the people here are speaking. Fight the good fight. Again nothing I have found in the bible contradicts anything these people are telling you to do. God hates divorce you are fighting to stop that right. I was in your shoes so much. Yes she is nice and amicable your allowing her to have her cake and eat it too. I was and still am fighting it. Not only are you letting her have the cake too, but your holding the plate for her.

Quote

I don't really feel like I've gotten any real suggestions. I've heard a lot of slander towards my W (she deserves it) and how enabling I am. I installed keylogger software on the computer, but she mostly uses the smartphone which I no longer have access to.

Slander? Curious choice of words, don'tcha think? Your wife is a serial cheater, GJM. She has very poor (or perhaps nonexistent) bondaries around men, and cheats anytime she feels "unhappy". And you've gotten suggestions, however you are too afraid to heed them.

My suggestions:

1. Shed your fear. Not a good thing in a man, but we see so many BHs come here seemingly paralyzed by their fear of consequences. Paradoxically it's your course of appeasement that will doom your marriage. By showing weakness and letting your wife do whatever she wants without consequence, do you project an image as a guy worthy of respect? Not really, right? Women have affairs on men for whom they have contempt, it's how they justify what they do. Women don't really respect weak men they feel contempt for them.

2. Contact your base Judge Advocate office. You can get free legal advice, however, they will not be able to represent you in the CA state courts. They will be able to help you make a formal complaint against the OM. Adultery is an offense in the UCMJ and, yes, they do take action. Usually the command will order the OM to cease contact with your wife, and if he violates the order he then has two charges, adultery and refusal to obey a direct order. Usually that means field grade Article 15 (nonjudicial punishment that could result in reduction in grade with a hefty fine) or a court martial. Either one is usually career terminal.

3. Tell your kids the truth. They have to be wondering why Mom is living by herself now - why lie to them? Is this how you want them to think marriages are? That it's ok for a wife (or husband) to cheat?

4. I would contact the Family Advocacy program on base, usually with either base community services or Behavioral Health, to see how thay can assist you. Also CYA with the chain of command if you do need some time or help dealing with your situation.

5. Please lose this fantasy that your wife is gong to agree to the terms you listed above. Once she gets a lawyer, they'll be going for whatever they can get. That's why you need to establish that she's been unfaitful multiple times, that you've tried to work on the marriage, and she continues to cheat and leave the family on a whim. time to stop thinking about what you feel God would want you to do and start thunking about what is best for both you and your children. If you are not proactive you cold be setting yourself up for a world of hurt, especially given what is pro forma in California family courts.

6. Don't stop the divorce, your wife needs to see consequence to her actions, needs to understand that you ar resolute that you will not be treated this way. There's both a stick and a carrot aspect to Plan A. You are not practicing Plan A, you are in Plan Doormat.

I apologize if I sounded ungrateful.

GJM,

I had EXACTLY the same fear and attitude that you have right now. It got me nowhere. I was afraid to rock the boat. I was afraid to tick off my WW by doing the things that were being suggested on this forum.

Understand this: There is ZERO chance that you can save your marriage as long as the affair is ongoing. She may say that it is over. 99% of the time it is a lie. But understand it and get it through your head: You will not save your marriage and have no chance of doing so as long as she is actively in an affair.

You need to understand what �amicable� means to a WW. It means that she �lets you down easy� and leaves you while keeping a friendly relationship and hoping that she stays friendly with you, has her affair with OM, and has an amicable divorce where you all get along splendidly afterwards. In her mind, you and OM will get along wonderfully, the kids will be happy that she�s happy, and you all frolic in the fields while bunnies and rainbows come out to celebrate her wonderful love with the OM.

So this is a game she plays to keep you behaving while she sets up her exit. I say this to you because I lived it! Get it!

There is nothing unique or special about your situation. Your wife is a serial cheater. So long as you don�t take definitive action to stop the affairs and set your foot down (so to speak) then you will simply repeat what is essentially a pattern of emotional abuse.

So follow the steps outlined for you to end the affair. Will she be ticked? Oh yes. You will second guess the advice we�ve given you and wonder if you made a monster mistake.

But it is necessary to expose in order to bring the affair to light and end it. Your marriage can survive her anger. It will not survive an ongoing affar.

So man up. Do what you need to. It is the ONLY way to save your marriage if it is salvageable.

The path after exposure is uncertain. The path without exposure is certain. It ends in divorce.

Your marriage can survive her anger. It cannot survive an affair.

I understand what you're saying. I need to be methodical about how I do this. Under the Chapter 15 of the UVMJ, I will be obligated to provide support at a minimum of $200 per person. We have so many bills that I cannot afford to do that. I also risk losing my base housing for my children if I don't get at least 50 percent custody. My W has agreed to my terms on our settlement agreement. Should I serve her the papers and have the agreement typed up first. I would then have to wait at least 30 days before I can request a court order for more custody. Once she signs the settlement agreement, my command cannot interfere. The court will only be able to change child support from then on. I held off serving the papers in hopes of reconciliation, but from what you all are saying, she falls into the pattern of a liar and chronic cheater.

Somehow I became weak through all of this. I never used to let anyone walk on me and I didn't take crap from anyone. I lost myself because of love. I do need to man up and find myself again.

That's UCMJ not UVMJ

GJM,

OM is also a Marine.

Sorry you are dealing with this with Vets day being last Friday, Thanks for serving, but did you report him to his command? In a sense OM also broke his vows with the Marines as well.

Did she ever come clean about her first affair, and did you inform the OMW from that episode, she has never had to pay the price for that one or this one.

God Bless
Gamma

The first affair I told everyone. I never found the OMs wife to tell her. She did come clean about the first affair and this one. You're right, she never had to pay for either of the incidents. This time my W asked me not to involve other people. Then she said go ahead if it will make me feel better. I didn't tell the OMs command because I didn't want his W and kids to pay for his mistake. I do have emails that I can use though.

GJM, reporting the OM to the chain of command would be a critical exposure.

If I were you, I would expose this affair this week and do what you can to kill it. Expose to the OM's wife, his chain of command, your children, everyone. In the meantime, stop cooperating with this 50/50 arrangement and stop giving her money for groceries. Put the onus on HER to get a court order if she chooses. Make her do all the work. Tell her you will not be her "friend" as long as she harms your family. You will only cooperate with actions that are positive to your marriage and your children's best interest.

Let her know you won't cooperate with her plan to destroy your marriage for an affair anymore.

While there are no guarantees, this might serve to end the affair and wake her up enough to get her back home so you don't have to file any legal action. And you may still have to do that because your wife is so wayward and has been this way for SO LONG that it may take much more than this to wake her up, if it can be done. I think you have to be prepared to take very proactive legal action with her.

That is perfect. I would use those emails and expose this affair to the OM's wife and to the chain of command. For the sake of his wife and his children. They are being harmed behind their backs and need to be warned so they can protect themselves from your wife and the OM.

GMJ,

I�m a former AF officer. You have the most effective weapon you can use against an OM at your disposal and you�re afraid to use it.

You�re giving OM�s kids more consideration than your own. It is HIS actions that will lead to any negative consequences.

What you need to do is immediately send your email evidence to his chain of command and let them take it from there.

I had two Army people as tenants in my former house. One was married to someone else. The other one was not, but it was clear she was having a relationship with my tenant and they were living together.

I reported it to their chain of command. So he was married and she wasn�t. It was a clear case of adultery. However, since I had no hard evidence all the Army had was their word and they claimed to simply be roommates and friends.

So it went nowhere, but it raised hell for a while. It put pressure on them.

You have email evidence.

Odds are very high he will get a good butt chewing and that�s about it. He�ll be threatened with further action unless he stops.

So report him.

He has ZERO consideration for you and your kids. Do you think he ever said, �I�m not going to screw GMJ�s wife. He has kids and I don�t want to hurt them.�?

Wake up, my friend. Take action. That�s the only thing that will end this affair and give you any hope of saving your marriage. OM has no consideration for you. He doesn�t care about you or your kids. So why are you paying him a respect he isn�t paying to you? Do you see how jacked up your thinking is on this?

As far as 50/50 goes, you have a good chance of getting it. The UCMJ is N/A in civil matters, which your divorce will be. Believe me when I tell you that $200 per kid is nothing.

How much time do you have left?

The affair should be exposed in one fell swoop without warning. Once that happens, your wife will be furious and will make all sorts of threats, "I was going to give you a chance now I'm not" blah, blah, blah.... Don't let it bother you one bit. It is the equivalent of taking the crack pipe away from the crack head. They are furious, of course. With exposure, the more furious, the harder you hit the target.

Once you have her attention, set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact for life with the OM and send him a no contact letter

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle. She must move home

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc, total accountability

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.

She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

forgot to add:

Unless there is a court order, then there is NO obligation to give her money.

So stop reading the UCMJ for crap you wouldn't be expected to know under normal circumstances.

Make her work for the divorce. If she wants funding for her apartment and adultery, then she can get a job.

You're making this easy on her. IF your marriage ends it is because you facilitated its demise.

Again, I speak from experience and from the standpoint of someone who behaved exactly as you're behaving right now.

So stop.

GJM,

From the Marine website...

Semper Fidelis distinguishes the Marine Corps bond from any other. It goes beyond teamwork � it is a brotherhood and lasts for life.

Latin for "always faithful," Semper Fidelis became the Marine Corps motto in 1883. It guides Marines to remain faithful to the mission at hand, to each other, to the Corps and to country, no matter what.

So yes he needs to be reported to his command.

God Bless
Gamma

I have 2 years and 6 months before I retire.

You're right. She does have a job, which is where she met this guy.

You're right. I've been looking at the wrong things. Just being focused on saving a marriage that my W doesn't seem to want. It's become apparent that she doesn't love me or she wouldn't watch me hurt like this. I will put together this plan and run it by you guys before I execute it and you can tell me what I should change. Thank you.

I've always been a man/husband/father/Marine of Honor Courage Commitment.

Make no assumptions about custody.

My fear of losing my kids was the number one driver in me wanting to save my marriage. I was afraid I�d rarely see them otherwise.

If I had known the truth about custody (men get a fair shake) then I wouldn�t have had so much fear.

I thought the courts would be biased against me as a man. There is mom bias, but it can be overcome by being prepared and ready legally.

That means going on offense.

This could be another exposure target. Is he in a position of authority over her in that job? Is he her supervisor?

Are you in CA? I will do anything for my children. I have been an active part of their lives and I would love to at least share custody. Unfortuneately, I do not have the money for a lawyer. I can sell my stuff and try to raise the money.

No this guy is a Marine. My wife is a civilian working on the base. He used to work out at her gym.

Call his chain. That's your first exposure target.

That alone may be enough to kill it.

OM run away fast when the WW becomes a problem to deal with.

The WW doesn't want to admit it to herself, but she's often just a booty call for the OM.

That's very likely all this is to OM, so any he77 you raise will send him running.

Start exposing. Don't be afraid of it.

GJM, that sounds very much like the assault of an affair. The main emotion is FEAR and your success or failure is contingent upon your ability to follow a plan DESPITE that fear. Success is contigent upon the ability to set aside emotions and follow a PLAN. Those who can do that usually make it. Those who can't DO NOT. Those who cannot put aside their emotions don't make it.

I have full confidence that you can do that, though. Your have been trained as a Marine to follow a plan even under the most extreme duress. Another reason I believe you can pull this off is that I see you responding to REASON. A betrayed spouse who responds to reason generally employs enough of his LEFT BRAIN to be able to set aside his emotions and follow a PLAN.

You need to find a way to emulate someone else.

Do you remember the part in Band of Brothers when the LT (or Capt) was telling the private how to be brave? He said that you simply had to accept that you were already dead.

Well, you can simply accept the fact now that your marriage is over. It actually is. Any marriage that remains at this point will be one that is rebuilt.

But your marriage as you knew it is over. It is on the path to divorce and that outcome is inevitable unless you take action.

Think of it as a tactical situation that demands immediate action or it will lead to the death of everyone in your unit.

That�s what is happening in your marriage. You have a crisis and must respond in order to save it.

GJM,

No this guy is a Marine. My wife is a civilian working on the base. He used to work out at her gym

I would suspect that this fellow has made a sideline of going after fellow Marines wives, from what I have seen of OM, they pick a certain type study their vulnerabilities and becoming specialists.

The difference between this OM and the enemy, is that the enemy deserves an honorable burial.

God Bless
Gamma

Yeah he's a POS...I can't help but wonder what I could have done to affair proof my marriage. I wish I would have been more proactive in making sure my marriage was healthy. I know it's not my fault and she made the bad judgement call. It's just so unbelieveable. Like I'm living a nightmare.

I have been trying to find the OMWs phone number, but I can't find it. I did a peoplefinder search and came up with an address, but no phone number.

GJM,

Also try www.veromi.com , and get creative about the google search, try various combinations of keywords, the city they live in, her occupation etc. Also search on images in google, and look in www.linkedin.com which is like a facebook for professionals. Many people not in facebook are there.

God Bless
Gamma

What about whitepages.com? Have you tried a google search?

Do you see her on facebook? What about the OM? I would go to facebook right now and copy and paste all their contacts into a WORD doc.

Make sure his commander is clear that this POS is going after the civilian wives of his fellow Marines who are working on the base.

Then why are you waiting to expose before you serve WW?

Also if OM is military his command must be expsoed. Yet you do nothing but be a keyboard commando.

I went on white pages. Com and found a mailing address. I've searched Facebook and LinkedIn, but have not found either of them on there (OM and OMW). I did talk to my command about getting his command a no contact order. That was tough to do because I had to explain the whole story. I also set myself up an appt for counseling.

try 411.com, and google for other reverse lookup sites. I like intelius.com, very inexpensive for a single search.

If all else fails, drive on over there. 50 miles?

I'll try those sites. I can't drive over there because I have to work and I drop the kids off at school. That also runs the risk of the OM being home.

When could you drive over there? And it is ok if the OM is there. Just as long as his WIFE is there.

It is real important that you coordinate this all on the same day. That means exposing to the OMW, his commander, her parents, close family and friends, your children, all within the same time frame. You want it to hit like a tsunami so a) it is so effective it hopefully knocks down the affair and b) you only have to deal with ONE huge blow up.

Cant you drive over there this evening since your wife has the kids at her apartment?

I think this is an excellent idea. Bring the emails, leave the gun at home.

Sad thing is, I'm not angry anymore. I should be because that would help me get through this. I will be with my kids this evening. Would a letter to the OMW be inappropriate?

I think thats great that you aren't angry anymore. How is your exposure plan coming along?

And I would not send a letter to the OMW because it may be intercepted by the OM.

Thanks for asking...the exposure plan is going slow, but I'm trying to be thorough as most everyone already knows that she had the affair. I copied all of her FB contacts so I can tell those that are closer to her and might have an influence. I still have access to her gmail account and I copied those contacts too.

I'm not angry anymore. - GJM

The tragedy of love is indifference. - W. Somerset Maugham

Yeah, my friend, you're going to have a task before you to eventually put the toothpaste back into the tube!

But.....FIRST THINGS FIRST! KILL THE AFFAIR!!!

If it makes it easier, do NOT focus right now on your WW - instead keep your attention on the different lives your children will have if you had followed the path you were on when you got here (BTW: When the hell did MARINES ever surrender? Wake Island, 1942?), as opposed to the one you're beginning to see now!

You can (and should) fight this fight, my friend. We will help in any way you need.

NeverGuessed,
I want to fight and I will. Thank you all for helping me. I had been crying every day for the past two months. I'm tired of crying and feeling down. I'm slowly picking myself up. The past two night of her and the kids not being in the house have actually gave me some relief in a weird way. It's given me time to think as well.

This may sound dumb, but I was thinking of giving her the divorce papers so if it doesn't work out, I won't have to start the 6 month wait all over again. Or should I put that on hold?

Confuscious say:
If you don't want a divorce, don't facilitate a divorce!"
(Well, he woulda said that, unless he'd been reincarnated as a divorce lawyer!)

I know what you mean, I havent seen my WH in months and I am so much stronger! I would forgive him but no way would I endure his nonsense ever again.

When you have a firm plan and are no longer relying on what 'She said' as your guide (exhausting - right?) You will go from strength to strength.

LOL...needed that

Yes, exhausting. I've lost 16 lbs maybe more. I used to go to the gym every day. Now I don't have the energy (yet).

Good man! Do you see a facebook page for the OM and his wife?

You will. You will be amazed at how empowered you are about to get.

Are you getting sleep? Making the most of this break? Eating? You have a hill to climb!

It took me months to get back to the gym, dont worry about that. Your to do list for now reads

1) sleep
2) eat
3) exposure
4) get good friends around you

No they don't have a FB. I have two emails for the OM.

I am sleeping more. This is actually my second day of being alone. I had a friend come visit last night and we talked and watched football. I have some good friends helping me, but they are just as confused as I am. LOL

I just sent my command some emails from the OM and my W. Let's see what happens...

GJM,

You sent the emails to more than one person?

God Bless
Gamma

No, I only sent it through my chain of command because of the protocal we have to go through.

GJM,

The exposure clock is ticking and the ball is rolling. The next thing they'll do is bring OM in and read him his rights.

The cat will be out of the bag at that point and she and OM will go into damage control mode.

They'll start calling family and telling them that you're crazy and are under the delusion that she's having an affair.

This will really hurt the impact of your exposure.

OMW is a lost cause for now, but keep trying.

Expose immediately to her family, her friends, and anyone in your family you want support from.

I also know the fear you have about exposing to your own family. How will they ever accept her after what she's done?

Well, I regret not exposing to mine.

I have told my family. I just need to tell her sister and her boss. The last time I told them (2009), they didn't seem to care. They supported her no matter what. They're just as disfunctional as she is. They don't value marriage as I do and they think I'm trying to turn them against her.

Tell them anyway just to let them know. You arent just after active discouragement (althought its bloody good when it happens) What your after is giving WW a feeling like she's surrounded 'everyone knows' 'I cant spin him as a real boyfriend now' 'people are talking' etc.

Dont forget about OMs family friends

Ok, I can do this....

let them know that you simply want their support in your effort to save your marriage and ask for their help in ending the affair.

It's good to have support on your end.

Tell your kids.

You should read G6's thread. He is in the same place as you are but he's got the exposure ball rolling slowly right now. It's slow, but it's rolling.

You're not angry because you are following a plan. That's a great thing! Anger is just spent energy.

You should talk to OMW personally.

That's Giraffe6

Sorry. I got the two of you mixed up. He should come read yours.

???

I noticed that there is a couple of letter formats to expose WW. Is the format for use in writing or should it be in a phone call?

The key exposures will be to the OM's wife and your children. What are your plans for that? Those should be done in person if possible.

Whether or not you expose via letter or phone call depends on the person. For her parents, I would call them up, tell them about the affair and ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. Give them the facts about the OM, that he is a married man.

GJM, don't make the mistake of doing a trickle exposure. It will backfire on you. Go large or go home!

I don't know where to find the FB letter - anyone? I haven't mastered the quote.

I know: [censored].

Hey, my first "censor". I'm learning!

Surfer, there are lots of exposure letters up in the Notable posts section in Announcements!

ML: got it.

GR,

Here is an example of a Facebook or email exposure letter that you would edit to you own circumstances. I would caution you, though, to stick to the format. Don't add to this. You want the message to be clear and concise.


Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a old boyfriend named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

I will hit them all at once.

Thanks Surfer88

you're doing great!

Thanks zibbles! I'm gaining more and more confidence thanks to everyone helping me here.

Just a thought...if I can get my son to download a spy app on my wife's phone..would that be wrong?

it feels good to grab the bull by the horns! you are starting to get that feeling of having options as opposed to being stuck. keep going!!

That would be very right!!

I'll see if he'll do it..she's already asleep. What's it called again?

You are doing great. I figured you would because usually Marines are pretty strategic and can handle stress under fire as long as they have a PLAN and a direction.

Is it the one mentioned here? http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2558049#Post2558049

Thanks for not giving up on me MelodyLane

So that app has to be purchased only in the android market? Might be too complicated for him after all. I was hoping all he would have to do is download it.

She never gives up. Neither do we.

Would you give up on your kid? Nope.

She doesn't enable, though. You'll get no enabling support here.

You've got an army behind you, dude.

The good news is, I installed a keylogger program on our computer that I'm "willing" to let her take with her tomorrow. I just need to see about getting a VAR and GPS for a deal..ebay maybe.

What about this program? http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2554381#Post2554381

I don't think that one will work for Android

The only other one I know of is eblaster for android and it runs $65, but is pretty easy to install and will give you some great intel. It will send you all text messages, phone logs and it will send GPS locations. It is at spectorpro.com

Brilliant! Can your son keep it a secret?

Google the name of your WW's phone and the word 'spyware' ("i-phone + spyware") and see what that brings up on your search engine.

GJM,
Just wanted to send you a pat on the back, you are doing a great job, it is your best move so far.........
Keep posting........stay strong............remember the OM underestimated "YOU"
jessi

Don't have a son do the application.
Don't tell the kids you are snooping.

It is too much for them to deal with and it is your task.

You can figure it out, I bet. They make them user friendly.

The kids know the phone password. I don't know it.

Has anyone's WS been affectionate, call, text, visit them, have intimacy with them? Or we're they just distant and mean?

It's common. She wants her crackrock AND her marriage. It's when you really step up and take the crackrock away (or the crackrock dumps her) that they go absolutely NUTS for more crackrock and will then become "distant and mean" to anyone that messes with their crackrock. As long as you are seemingly OK with her crackrock habit and you'll have her around...she's fine with being nice to you.


It's ALL about the crackrock at this point. S

I'd say sometimes part of the allure of crackrock is a future together as soulmate schmoopies and in order to effectuate that future they need to be mean and distant with their husbands from the get-go because that's what crackrock expects and wants. Other times...there's obviously NO real future with crackrock and crackrock doesn't care about anything other than a few minutes/hours with your wife a day....a week. In that instance...she has free time to keep you hanging around and appeased such that she can maintain the status quo...TODAY.

Addicts don't care about tomorrow.

Mr. Wondering

When the A is dead, and the WS still doesn't know if they want the marriage, is that when plan B is put into place? I am obligated to support my W because the military won't allow me to cut her off or take the kids away from her. Is there anything I can do on my own to save my marriage? I am making my plans so they go smoothly.

Mine. Well...I visited her place but we did have sex.

My wife vacillated from being downright cruel to being "a good wife". Much of it in retrospect really depended on how hard OM was pushing her, or simply how her day was going in her head... I don't think it's all that uncommon for this.

CV

reading, he can't figure it out because they are separated and GJW has no access to her phone. That is why his teenage son is doing this. I disagree it is too much for him to handle.

This doesn't sound right to me. Have you talked to a jag? When I was in the Corps, I knew of 2 guys that got custody of their kids and were able to cut off their wife because of their infidelity.

CV

Her goal is to keep you servicing her by "being friends" "for the children." This helps assuage her guilt for sticking it to you. The ideal situation is to have you servicing her and being her "friend" while she carries on her affair in secret.

As long as she can keep you as her "friend" she won't have to face the consequences of her cruelty and she can keep you in her service.

I don't understand. No divorce has been filed so you are under no obligation to give her any money. Nor is there a court order mandating she gets to drag the kids out of their home like that. I would allow her visitation, but I would not force your kids out of their home just to accommodate her adultery. That is not fair to the kids. I don't think you should cut her off from the kids, just give her very limited visitation rights that does not involve dragging them out of their home.

I'm not sure when you were in, but times are very different now. My command is supporting my efforts and are trying to help me any way they can. They said that it's usually the H that is the POS and aren't used to dealing with situations like mine. They said as long as she doesn't complain about support or signs the settlement agreement (which is part of divorce and not wanted by me), then they won't enforce anything. If she calls and complains, I would have to pay $200 per person minimum per month. If I serve her the divorce papers, she would then sign the agreement and we would have 6 months to reconcile if there would be any hope left. That in affect, doesn't say that I want to save my marriage, but it does take a stand and say I'm not going to put up with infidelity any longer. It would also allow me to then cut her off and let reality sink in for her because I have taken care of her for so many years. I paid all the bills and handled the finances. Of course I made my mistakes along the way and tried my best to not make the same mistake twice. I never hit or cheated and I spent a great amount of time with the family. My W is holding on to resentment from the past when we were in our early twenties and she always let things build up before exploding. I would never be able to correct anything that bothered her because some times I wouldn't even remember what it was that I did due to her not telling me. In 2009 I even went to counseling for PTSD to make sure that I wasn't messed up from the war. I did that for months. My W said that I stole her life and she never got to have fun like normal 20 something year old's. I tried to help her make friends by having couples come over, but she was never interested. I asked her if she wanted to go to school, but she said she barely graduated from HS, why would she go back to school. Now she wants to have a career and go back to school and mingle with new friends. It's ironic actually. Her apartment is 1 mile from me. I have been checking on her frequently. I even go by her work, which is just down the street from our house. I know what hours she works and when she goes home. She doesn't stay up late because she wakes up at 3:40AM. Her windows of opportunity are very small to carry on a relationship. If she is able to meet up for quickies, that definitely isn't going to grow into anything special. Can it happen? Yes. I'll be vigilant though and keep spying. I have been reaching out to get her family to support our marriage. I know it's a 50/50 chance that they will.

I was in in the late 80's through early 90's. My wife's last A was with a Marine (yippee!)(07/08). Talked a lot about policy with his command. I was under the impression that the corps had a zero tolerance policy for adultery and thpought it extended to spouses. I may be wrong though.

Keep strong. You are getting great advice here.

celticvoyager,
Adultery is not tolerated, but the military cannot punish spouses. And being in CA, I'm double screwed. If I was in GA, I would have the law on my side.

Quote

This may sound dumb, but I was thinking of giving her the divorce papers so if it doesn't work out, I won't have to start the 6 month wait all over again. Or should I put that on hold?

No, not dumb at all. And as you stated in a later post, it shows clearly that while you want to save your marriage you're not going to stand for what she's been doing. You can stop a divorce at any time all the way until you sign on the dotted line.

Have you been to the Judge Advocate on base? Could save you some money for just advice, and save your money if or when you need to file something in family court. It also makes it so that your wife would not be able to use the base legal services if they have already advised you, she would either have to go to another base JAG or spend her own money for civilian legal advice/representation. Kind of a poison the well strategy, put as many roadblocks in place.

It's good that you are thinking and doing instead of just letting it happen to you - keep it up!

I tied up all the of the base legal services. She doesn't have access to any of them. I already file the paper work in October. I just haven't given them to her yet. In this regard, the only thing left is to have her served and have her sign the settlement agreement that we drew up. There is pretty much nothing left to do, but wait. I don't pay her rent or utilities and only give her enough money for food and gas (My obligation). My money goes into my own account which only I have access to. I transfer the money to our joint account which she uses. I told her that if she spends her money, I will not be able to make up the difference for her rent.

I also agree that we can stop the divorce any time, but I don't want to send the message that I want a divorce. It's a double edged sword really. If the divorce ends up going through and I try to get her back later, she might say that it was me who wanted the divorce, not her.

Hold off on the divorce papers until after exposure is done. Just have them handy in case you need to take that step.

Understand that serving her simply means she is given notice. She doesn't have to sign anything. She also doesn't have to sign whatever agreement you came up with.

She can counter and go for everything.

For now being prepared is good. Your agreement should seen full custody of the kids.

If you have full custody, then SHE would pay YOU child support. The financial obligations are really setup by civil courts. The only enforcement the military has is in following court orders such as ones calling for wage garnishments.

You have NO obligation to support her without legal papers mandating that you do so.

You should consult a lawyer if you can. The JAG can't do divorce. That's a civil matter.

But they could be a good source of free legal advice.

Set up free consults with every good lawyer in the area. After you talk to them (even if you dont use them) she cant use them. She will have trouble finding a good lawyer if it comes to that. Cover you bases. You dont have to tell her you are doing this part. She will find out if she tries to file.

She already has agreed to everything.

Quote

I can't help but wonder what I could have done to affair proof my marriage. I wish I would have been more proactive in making sure my marriage was healthy. I know it's not my fault and she made the bad judgement call.

Listen, EVERY BS sits and wonders the same thing. We have people here whose spouses are cheaters and admit that they didn't do a very good job of meeting their WS emotional needs or that they mistreated them. We have others who have absolutely no clue as to why their spouses cheated, they treated their spouses well, tried their best to meet their emotional needs, etc. Whatever the situation there's one thing that applies to all of them - going outside of your marriage to have an affair will never "fix" anything. How many cheaters actually try to resolve problems before cheating? Not many considering how many BS report being blindsided - some you may chalk up to being either blind or clueless or perhaps not as involved in their marriages as they should be to see warning signs. But the majority of BS usually report it was a complete surprise. The decision to cheat is solely on the cheater � no one can force you or make you do anything, you do it out of choice. Even in the military, they can�t make you do anything, although they CAN make you real sorry if you don�t.

All joking aside, some people cheat without any problems in their marriage. There will be WS that say the affair didn�t �mean� anything. How stupid is that, of course it means something, especially to the BS. These people only think of their own selfish impulses or desires, never once really considering the consequences. There�s a poster here called Oldmittens whose wife is a great example of this, cheated with a mutual friend and got pregnant with the guy�s child, and then was shocked, just shocked I tell you when Oldmittens professed his desire to end the marriage � after all, the affair didn�t mean anything, it was just for fun.

Then there are those people who aren�t �happy� � it isn�t their spouses fault, it�s a problem inside themselves, like they have these grandiose or unrealistic expectations of what their life or marriage is supposed to be like and when reality doesn�t live up to their ideal, they�re not �happy�. No one can make you happy � happiness comes from within. I think this is a BIG problem in America, just look at how many are on antidepressants. Your life or marriage is what you make out of it, life isn�t just something that happens to you, although a lot of people try to exist that way, just floating along through the years, you make your own happiness and life and marriage is something you need to work at, not take pills to make it look better, like slapping paint on a rusted railing, eventually the rust will break through again.

Your wife doesn�t seem to want to work at it, she believes it all should be handed to her because she is entitled. And because it hasn�t gone her way, it�s all your fault, so she is justified in cheating on you because your job is to make her happy and you haven�t accomplished that mission. The truth though is that these people aren�t happy with anybody, and they go on to repeat this pattern with future partners. Some realize after several failed relationships that the problem is looking back at them in the mirror, and seek help or make changes on their own. Some never do. Your wife is now living by herself but will keep stringing you along, because she�s basically �better dealing� you. Once you kill the affair, she is going to need some help realigning her expectations with life and marriage with reality or true life.

I wouldn't stop the divorce now, because that's what she expects you to do. If she has agreed to a settlement and you don't believe she will change her mind once she lawyers up, then let the process continue. Like I said, you can always stop it at any point, and there's no law against remarrying sometie in the future when she works through HER own issues. As far as her pointing the finger of blame at you, well who was the one who cheated and left home? Like I said, it's going to be your fault no matter what you do or say. If you tell her that you don't want to proceed with the divorce, and as long as she promises NC for life and to follow this MB program that you're willing to forgive as long as EP's and firm boundaries are in place, then the decision is really hers to make now isn't it? But if you DO end up divorcing, actions you take now could result in you getting the type of settlement you want and maximize your time with your kids.

Take some time away from thinking about your situation for a few hours and read through some of the BS threads on this site. Read SOL, Chrisner, SDGuy, hell, there�s too many to list and I don�t want to offend by omitting anyone�s pertinent story, but you�ll see what this process is like. Some turn out to be success stories and some don�t. I kind of look at ALL of them as success stories because even though some of these guys may not have been able to save their marriage, they are better prepared for their next relationship and for life in general using what they have learned here.

It really sucks to be in your position, we really truly understand that and, believe me, we all empathize with you. Lots of info being thrown at you and sometimes disparate opinions or courses of action, and when one is under emotional duress it can seem like Babel. But you seem to have a clear head on your shoulders, and now is a time when you really need to try to reason things out rationally, for both yourself, your kids, and yes, even your wife. We'll be here to help you.

GJM, please go to the Divorce section and read a new thread by a poster called OlderNWiser - should give you food for thought about promises from a WW.

Well said americagin. Thats exactly how I feel. Do I want to let go? No, but I don't have control over anyone, but me.

I read oldernwiser's post. My situation is a little different. My paper work is already filed and we did the settlement paper work together. The only thing she can request to change now is child support.

We're going to a new counselor tomorrow. Any suggestions on what to do?

Yes. Cancel that appointment and don't waste your money on that counsellor. Set up an appointment with the Harleys on this site. You are gambling that this counsellor actually knows how to save marriages - amazingly, most DON'T.

Counselor's are a waste of money as long as the affair is still on. I'd make it clear while I was in there that there is little point in trying to fix things so long as she's having an affair.

Make it clear that you're happy to work on the marriage and fix the problems you have but that it can't happen until she ends her affair.

Set your boundaries. Hopefully you'll get a pro-marriage counselor. The one I had was an idiot who told me to go along with what my WW wanted and that it was a phaze.

So be careful.

Oh crap. Don't you have enough trouble as it is? That will be a disaster since your wife is in an ongoing affair.

Most counselors give horrible advice, but sometimes a few are good. Lets see what happens.

Here is the problem with marriage counselors. First off, they don't know how to save marriages. They have an 84% failure rate and a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. They are destructive to marriages and are little more than divorce facilitators. Most are anti-MALE.

They are even worse when there is an affair, though. They don't understand the mentality [fog] of the wayward. So when the wayward says they want to "separate" to get some "space" your typical MC does not understand this is code for "want the freedom to carry on my affair."

As a result, the counselor ENCOURAGES a "trial separation" to give the WS what she wants. [this is one of many examples of destructive advice given by marriage counselors] A "separation" is a trial for DIVORCE, though, so the couple usually ends up divorced because separating dramticallty increases the odds of divorce.

The MC helps the WS achieve marriage wrecking goals based on the temporary FOG from an affair. It would be like helping a falling down drunk obtain his desires, being completely oblivious to his drunken state. His desires, of course, change dramatically when he is sober.

But that isn't the limit of the damage. When a so-called professional gives her blessing to such destructive plan, it makes it virtually impossible for the BS to undo that damage.

There is nothing a MC can do to help your marriage while your wife is in affair, but an MC can cause tremendous damage to your chances. You would be safer getting pedicures.

Another way they harm marriages is to counsel couples in conflict TOGETHER in the same room. Each spouse cites a list of grievances about the other, which causes enormous erosion of any remaining love. Couples leave more angry than when they went in. This is why Dr Harley does NOT ever counsel couples together.

GJ, you will find that Marriage Builders is completely and dramatically different from traditional marriage counseling in that they actually know how to save marriages. The foundation of Marriage Builders is not built on psychobabble and man hating like traditional marriage counseling.

Harley discusses how he is different here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/3/20

Thanks. I did see that counseling has an 86% failure rate. I spoke to the MC about being pro marriage prior to setting the appointment. The MC is on their first marriage. I would use the MB counseling if I had the money to do so. My insurance is paying for it. I'm pretty much screwed from what I'm hearing. I was hoping to go in there with some tools to use, but I guess I'll just be wasting my time. I will let you guys know what happens.

If your only choice is keeping the appointment, DON'T KEEP IT. CANCEL IT. It will not help you while your WW is in an affair.

It's too late to cancel because you need 48 hours to do so.

Then go and use the opportunity to Plan A here without expecting much progress with the counselor.

Your wife's goal is to make the divorce seem like the reasonable MUTUAL decision between the two of you. Like it's the natural result of two people that never should have married in the first place.

Your goal is to get the counselor to agree with a couple things:

1. The best outcome for everyone (kids included) is to have the two of you repair and rebuild a loving marriage

2. That nothing can be accomplished towards achieving number 1 and counseling is a waste of time and money if she isn't willing to end her affair and demonstrate trustworthy behavior.

a. If she claims the affair is over then you say fine....move home right now...I'll help you TODAY. Going to counseling CLAIMING you want to work on your marriage yet moving out and being separate are in congruent. Are you really here to fix things or justify ending things?

b. If she continues to claim it's over then ask why you (or the counselor) should trust her word...what type of evidence is she willing to demonstrate on a continuing basis to PROVE she's not still having an affair. Get counselor to agree that there's no secrecy in marriage and people with nothing to hide hide nothing.


She'll, no doubt, try to go off on the "he's controlling" tangent and can't I just get space to which you circle back...without expectation to...

"we are wasting our time as long as there's a third party in this marriage. I refuse to play this game of charades ACTING like we are working on our marriage while she expects me to SHARE my wife with another man OR expects me to take her word for it that she's no longer with him. I'm not a fool."


Be PLEASANT. I call it charging neutral. Say it with a smile. You are having a discussion. A civil discussion you can continue thereafter. However...after a little stick in Plan A perhaps a little carrot is in order. You'll get a few minutes with her after where you can say... "I need a break from all this mess, how about you and I just get a beer at xyz bar....one beer, no relationship talk" If you can get her out...just FAKE laid back and relaxed. Act like you did when you were dating her and all cocky and confident. (I say Act because I know how stressed you are right now and your confidence has been shaken).

Who knows...maybe the counselor will be great. If he agrees completely with you and basically calls your wife out...then he's probably OK. Problem is...if he's any good your wife will hate him as he'll roadblock her whole purpose for being there.

Mr. W

I agree on plan Aing during the appointment and before and after.

Ok, change of events....I ate dinner with her and the kids this evening and things went pretty bad. I'm a very good judge of character and can read people pretty well. That's how I found out about the affair to begin with. God don't like ugly. Anyway, I asked her if anything was wrong and she said no. Next thing I know she is saying I'm too pushy. WW talk. I didn't panic. I asked her how long she had been planning to leave. She said her original plan was to leave when the gets grew up. That lead to why she was going to counseling. She said because I wanted it. That lead to why are we delaying the divorce. She said because I asked her to.

I'm smart enough to know when to cut my loses. Still not panicked, I kissed the kids and went home. I pulled out the divorce papers and called her to ask if I could come over for her to sign the settlement agreement. She said yes. Didn't even read it. I could have put 80/20 custody for me and she wouldn't have noticed. I'm a good guy though. I'm honest in everything I do. Anyway, I drove back over there and she signed it. Now I'm going to go and get it typed up so she can sign the official one. I'm also going to serve her the papers. I am saddened that I spent 13 years with a liar and a cheater. We have such great kids too. It was me that taught them manners and respect. They model after me. They think she's mean and I still defend her. Not anymore I don't. My daughter finally even said my W was mean to me after all this time of not saying a word about our split.

So now I serve the papers, have her sign the settlement and wait for 6 months for it to be over. Plan A, Plan B....doesn't matter anymore. I'm waking up and realizing that there are millions of women on this planet and one of them will love me the way I love her. I sure do love my WW though. I can't deny that. You guys are right, I have to treat her like a drug addict or alcoholic. When she decides to wake up, I'll be here. I'm not in a rush to date. My main goal is to make sure I get just as much custody as she does if not more. I haven't given up hope. I just can't live like this.

GJM, this is called Plan FU, which isn't MB, but it's understandable.

You have the right to make this call at any time.

I still encourage you to follow through on exposure. It will prevent her from introducing OM as her new boyfriend as if she just met him after you guys separate.

The other advice I would give you is to stay on the MB plan through this process and proceed at this point, after you expose, to Plan B. Go dark.

There is life after it. 3 years after mine I met a wonderful woman that is now my wife. She is on board with MB and its principles. She loves my kids and is a great step mom. My ex could get struck by lightning and my first question would be, "Were any of the kids hurt?"

There comes a point where you feel nothing for the ex.

For now, if you do move forward with this, I strongly recommend you don't date. I say that because you're not at all ready and a D and custody fight is an ugly place to get involved with what could be a great woman. A great woman would want nothing to do with the drama, if she's emotionally healthy. So stay away.

Proceed with exposure, however.

It may seem as if I have given up, but I haven't. We have been going through this for two months. It's been almost two weeks since she moved out and each day gets a little worse. I love her, but I have to ensure my kids get better than what she is giving to them. They are unhappy in her 1BR. I can't force my W to participate in repairing the marriage. She's not interested right now. I believe she is staying married to me to retain her benefits. I don't have a desire to date and my children have said that they won't want to live with whoever is dating. Not that it's up to them, but it's not something I want to do anyway.

GJM, what about exposing the affair? The affair still has to be exposed. The OMW's still has to know. Your kids have to be told. Everyone should know.

What is the plan to expose this affair?

How will you ensure that? What changes now that she signed the paper and how will that get them out of there?

JGM,

I've been thinking about this, Mel's words about being a Marine and trained for combat and how to relate this to you in terms you can grab hold of... One thing that's sticking with me is the idea that this is combat. You really are in a combat environment. One where the "friendlies" quickly can become enemies combatants and your main target vacillates between friendly and enemy. It is difficult, but not insurmountable. So how do you approach this as a Marine?

You said early on the Marine Corps didn't prepare you for this... I disagree. The Corps has worked well for so long because it prepares you for any hostile environment. Improvise, adapt, overcome. The USMC plan hasn't changed (though technology has) because it works. Ironically is parallels MB's plan for marriages as well:

1. Identify the enemy

2. Formulate a plan

3. Do recon

4. Expose the enemy

5. Gather support

6. engage the enemy

This is basically the combat model from the top down... How does this work in MB terms?

1. The enemy of this conflict is the affair and the OP: It/they have taken your wife as a POW and has brainwashed her. She vacillates between appearing to be a friendly and an enemy because the affair (and the affair partner)are pulling her strings and feeding her lies, propaganda and misinformation.

2. Formulate a plan: MB is the best strike you have. You don't use an inferior plan that will have limited or no success. It is a detailed plan that covers nearly every contingency and has the ability to move with the enemy as they try and shift tactics. It is a plan that goes very well with the "improvise adapt and overcome" because it has already anticipated the next move(s) and has prepared for it.

3. Recon: It is validated spying. It is for the purpose of putting the enemy down once and for all. Ending the affair. It is for the greater good of protecting the innocents. It is key loggers etc... Poor recon and bad Intel will kill you in the fight. Good recon helps you further develop the plan so it can be executed with the best and most devastation to the affair. You cannot go into a town to fight combatants if you don't have an idea of their strength, weapons, supplies, etc... It is potential disaster, so you gather the proper Intel and prepare for it accordingly. This is what snooping does for you.

4. Exposure is the key. You expose the enemy to the world (just like we did post 9-11). Sure some will not join you, but others will. They will help put an end to the evil that is being perpetrated. On a more local level, exposure kills the ability for them to operate in secret. It will be harder for them to ambush you and your family. It is a bunker buster. Dropped properly, it drives them out of the affair cave so you can route the enemy in the open. Often, the bunker-buster of exposure kills the affair outright. It is the shock and awe part of the plan. It's your heavy air support. You don't fire an M16 at a T72, you fire an RPG or .50cal. It does more damage. Exposure is the carpet bomb airstrike preparing you for the ground war.

5. Gather support: once you have exposed, you will clearly see who stands by you and who doesn't. It clears out the confusion between friendlies and enemies. Your friends will have the opportunity to rally around you and engage the enemy as well... IE: save your marriage by encouraging and pressuring her to work on the M.

6. Engaging the Enemy is difficult when exposure isn't done. It's like the command is sending you into battle withholding vital Intel and not having softened up the enemy with the airstrike/artillery. Every aspect of this serves its purpose and is essential to successful mission accomplishment. Otherwise there are heavy casualties.

Make sure you expose. Make sure you identify friendlies and avoid hostiles.
Remember some of those motivating catch phrases from bootcamp they drilled in our heads?

"Retreat, he11 we just got here!" ~ Captain Lloyd Williams, USMC at the Battle of Belleau Wood WWI

"We're surrounded? Good, now we can kill the ba$t@rds in any direction." ~ "Chesty" Puller

"Some people live an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference in the world, Marines don't have that problem." ~ President Ronald Regan Make that difference in your marriage too.

"The Marines are careful, brave fighters...they were like hunters, boring in relentlessly without fear. I never heard a wounded Marine moan."
~ The U.S. Army General Staff

that's the sit-rep. You got it Marine?

Cv

The only one left is her boss and my kids.

She signed the agreement. I will keep the 4br house for the children. Then I will file to get more custody to show what's in the best interest of the children. I'm going to see my lawyer today.

Yes sir. I got it. I've reached out to the ones closer to her and am waiting to hear back from them.

What about the OM's wife? That is the most important exposure.

GJM, do one more thing. Just one, and then you can call it a day: EXPOSE THIS TO OMW. Then you can throw in the towel if that's what you wish to do.

Can you do that ONE thing?

GJ, what does this mean exactly? To whom are you exposing and what are they doing? Are you asking them to call her?

I found out that my 1stSgt is friends with the OMs wife and she is now aware of the situation. I have treid to contact her, but my 1stSgt has removed her self from the situation because she knows the OMW. My W has two people that are close to her. Her sister and a friend that she talks to a lot. I explained the situation about the affair and that I am fighting for my marriage. I asked them to use whatever influence they have over my W to encourage her to work on the marriage and the only way we can do that is if there is no third party in the marriage. They told me that they just want her to be happy and they didn't feel like they had that kind of influence over her. I said that they had more influence than they know. Then I got silence. My W doesn't even talk to her mom so that one was useless. Apparently the OMW found out around the same time that I did (Sept) and they went back to Texas for a month. OMW has taken the POSOM back and they are now working on their marriage.

Does she have a facebook? Expose to friends on FB too. ON OMs FB and on WW's

Not good enough, GJM. You need to personally verify this with OMW.

My WW has a FB, but she rarely goes on there and the OM and OMW don't have FB.

GJ, when will you be exposing to the OMW? I do not care about second hand information that she was told. She has to hear about the affair FROM YOU and you need to tell her the current situation. Saying the OMW "knows" is NOT exposure. You do not know what she knows.

I am beyond frustrated that you have not contacted the OMW after all these days. This is a CRITICAL exposure that cannot be swept under the rug. This should have been done FIRST.


In other words, they don't give a rats [censored] about her. I guess it is a good thing she is not a serial killer, isn't it?


I would enlist her mother, dad, and any key relatives and ask them to contact her.

GJ, in other words you have done NO exposures. Other than to talk to some crapwit friend and her stupid enabling sister who already know and endorse the affair. That is NOT exposure.

Look at it this way

Your wife and the OMW's H have been having

sexual intercourse with each other

and you owe it to the OMW to directly touch base with her on this heinous, family fracturing, awful, dreadful truth.

Even if you only discuss once with OMW, she needs to know what is happening in your marriage....all the better to fight for hers.

As far as you know, the OM gaslighted his wife and told her they were just "friends." Nor does the OMW know the affair has NOT STOPPED. The affair is still going strong.

It is completely normal for the OM to lie about the status with his wife. It's much easier to dupe the WW into believing that his marriage is horrible than it is to tell her, "Look, I'm married and want to be with my wife but you'll be my f**k buddy as long as it is convenient for me."

That's the reality.

That's why he'll run in the other direction if this affair is exposed and you'll end this affair, but for some reason you won't act. Why?

I still haven't found the OMW information. The address I found was on the internet and there is no guarantee that it's the right woman and I have no pictures to verify who she is.

If my WW had a relationship with either of her parents or even spoke to them, I would contact them. Her circle is very small and I contacted the people she is close to. No one in her circle is willing to help contact her and ask her to work on the marriage. One of the members here would have a better chance of calling her than the people I spoke of. And they all say that she had the affair because she was unhappy and to take a look at myself to see what part I played in driving her away.

I would make this happen TODAY. Get the OM's address and drive over there. Stop putting this off, GJ.


You should contact them regardless of the current state of their relationship. They can be of great help by contacting her. As her parents, they have influence over her. Likely no one can get through to her, but you should not leave a single stone unturned.

You owe it to your boys.

Her circle is very small...No one in her circle is willing to help contact her...

Two things strike me from this

1 - These apathetic scuzz-balls do not have to actively campaign for your wife to straighten up to be allies in your fight. Just keep telling them the immature and destructive things WW is doing. DISGUST THEM with her infidelities! Keep reminding the ladies that WW is boning ANOTHER WOMAN'S HUSBAND! ("If she'll do that to her husband, maybe....")

2 - This reinforces that the affair is still active. With such a small cadre of support, what are the odds that WW's long-term plan is to reside in a 1 BR apt, in an entry level job, forever? Nope, she's still dreaming of being the next Mrs. POSOM!

Fight dirty, my friend!

GJM,

MY W has been estranged from her family for years...I still regret not exposing to them.

Her "circle" was small -- an aunt, an uncle, OUR CHILDREN, a few coworkers.

Exposed to OMs family, employers (had NO info on friends, no FB, etc.)

I still think this was a 'limited' exposure...yet, it still killed the affair.

Expose.

GJM,

$100 to a PI will get you every last bit of information you want on the OM.

Stop making excuses. Start acting. Take action!

I received an email from her step sister saying that she supports my WW because she would rather see her happy divorced than unhappy in a marriage and I've had 13 years to work it out and it just didn't work. She also said to not involve the kids because she was involved in her parents divorce and it made it that much more painful for her because she was dealing with her own emotions of being a teenager.

Then I received a text from WW saying to stop involving her friends and family and that I was doing more damage than good. That I was also pushing her away further. I found a guy in admin to look up information for me so I can contact POSOMW. He said I should have it this afternoon.

GJM, when will you finish the exposures? And when will you be exposing to your children?

I am sorry the step sister is retarded and doesnt care about your wife but that is ok. You will get those kinds of reactions.


Good man!! I would plan on exposing the affair to your kids too. GEt that done so they understand what is happening.

Totally agree with Mel here!

GJM,

She might try to get to your kids before you do. Expose ASAP before she tells them, "Your father has gone nuts. He thinks I'm having an affair and might come to you telling you so. It's a lie and he's just controlling and jealous."

Call them!

Her family might be a lost cause. Expose anyway.

I'm hoping to finish exposure tonight. I know she will try to keep the kids and since I don't have a court order, she would be within the law. Right?

I did, but you're right. Lost cause.

Keep one thing firmly in mind, GJM: the goal of exposure is NOT to educate anyone or to accept criticism from them. It is intended to target anyone who can be instrumental in helping you influence WW to end her affair. Obviously her step-sister is ignorant in what it takes to end affairs, and that's okay. It wasn't your mission to educate her, just to expose the A to her.

Her ignorance is doubly obvious by her comment about not involving the kids. They are already involved because they're your kids! This is their mother! More than anyone else, they have the right to know what is happening in their family's life! 'Don't tell the kids'...that always kills me, it's so idiotic. The chance is good that one of step-sister's parents was involved in an affair and they kept it a secret from her. Maybe her emotions wouldn't have been so 'painful' if she had known what was really going on in her life.

Let us know right away when you've exposed to OMW. Good job figuring out how to find her!

There's nothing illegal about her having her own children with her. And the same goes for you.

Where are they now? You should get them home with you and expose the A before she has a chance to spin this. She's got relatives who have likely told her that you are exposing the A. You'll want to talk to the kids before she does.

Chop-chop on calling OMW, too. If your WW figures out what you're doing, she'll call OM and warn him. He'll have time to spin the A to his wife, as well.

You would be within the law to keep the kids and since she doesn't have a court order you would be within the law. I would keep the boys and only let her have day visits.

Do you have a PLAN to visit wtih the OMW?

HER PARENTS!! One retarded step sister does not make a lost cause. You haven't exposed to her family.

One of the dirty tricks women play is that they take the kids to another state and then file diovorce papers there, forcing the man to fight a long distance custody battle. This is why it is important to have your legal ducks ready just in case.

If she does such a thing, file an emergency order.

1. the OMW

2. her parents

3. your children

4. the OM's commander

Yes I plan to visit the OMW. The kids are in school right now. I take them and she picks them up.

I told her mom, sister, step sister, BIL and friends. Don't know where FIL is. WW broke contact with him in 2003. MIL wouldn't take my call so I had to message her. She left a voicemail on my son's phone saying to get out of there (thinking its my WW phone) and that I was scary. My son heard the message. MIL was a promiscuous woman as well. Very bad example to WW and her sisters.

WW just came to my house to pick up DS (8) and he didn't want to leave. WW said she was furious because that was her family and why would they help me. She also said that what was my thought process. I said to get some support for her to work on the marriage. She said this is between us not anyone else. She also said to leave her family out of it.

That is great!

Ok, so what is the plan to tell the OMW? Are you doing that today? And what about the boys?

Babble. Disregard this. She wasn't asking questions, expecting to learn anything. She was jumping on you for not keeping her little secret.

Good for your son, for not wanting to go with her! Please tell me you kept him with you. And please tell me you've told him the truth about what is going on with his family.

I'm waiting for the info on the OMW. We had to be secret about it. And I did keep my DS. My other DS and DD will be here in about an hour. WW left here very mad. She looks worn down. She won't show any emotions though (except anger) so I've gotten control over mine as well. When she left I told her I did it for us and I love her. Not in a begging way of course. I said it matter-of-factly.

Good job! Just stay with the mission. Even though her family members don't care about her, you did cause conflict in the affair. Now she won't be able to lie to everyone and blame the affair on you. You put her on the defensive by forcing her to explain herself to others.

Between you and her


and

the OM and his wife and your kids and their kids and so on and so on and so on.

There is a saying that fits so well

"You can choose the actions but you can't choose the consequences".
People can choose to cheat on their spouses but they don't get to choose what the spouse does when they find out about it.

Very true.

What do you and the children plan on doing for Thanksgiving?

We're going to make dinner here and spend the day together.

So I went to my appointment today. Why do therapists condone separations when there is no abuse? I'm sure I don't have to explain how it went.

You don't have to explain. We know....

Sigh. Please tell us you didn't spend too much on that.

Here's what I'd tell him, "You can't fix a marriage while separated. That's like a surgeon trying to fix your heart through telepathy.....in another hospital.....across town."

Good analogy HTLD, I would love to see the reaction to that.

I was actually saying to a friend today how bad some IC's are... the first one I went to after D Day told me I needed to "move on" or I would likely "get sick... maybe cancer". So I had just been stabbed in the back by the person I trusted most, was still lying bleeding on the floor, but my main concern should be about possibly developing cancer

If I ever get a shot at and still want recovery, I will be first on the phone to the Harley's. If I can't afford it, I'd rather go it alone with the Harley books. I just don't think I'd take the chance with some two-bit counsellor that would likely buy into WH's foggy head-up-his-butt comments.

Basically, the therapist validated her infidelity because she was unhappy. Instead of accepting responsibility for her actions, now she feels she was justified in what she did. If it was a homicide, she would have gotten convicted for murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Anyway, she came to pick up my DS and he was crying so much to stay. He was screaming don't make me leave daddy. I was crushed. I had to let him go and I just told him to be strong because he is a big boy and I would see him tomorrow. I know some of you are saying I should have kept him or not made him go. If I would have made a scene about it, the conflict would have gotten worse and it would have become a tug of war. Of course she texted me later and said I could have done more instead of just standing there. She said that I made her look like the bad guy and so be it then. I asked her if she was blaming me for her being the bad guy and she said nope.

I called my DS and told him that I love him and I was sorry for him having to leave. He then called me before bed and was in a real good mood. She bribed him with something of course. He almost told me, but I didn't want to push. I'll find out later like always.

Luckily the Courts don't tolerate "But I was unhappy" as a line of defence. Imagine that. The serial killer uses the defence "But I was unhappy, and murdering innocents made me feel better".

Please don't pay that therapist any more money.


Grrr, waywards! I really feel for you GJM, and your DS. Adultery really hurts the innocents. I know you are aware she is blameshifting, it is easier for her to make out that you are making it difficult on DS than accept it is her decisions and actions that have caused this. Her waywardness is what is really hurting your DS. Be there for him, be honest and don't let him feel caught in the middle. Sorry, not sure how old he is?

You're still in Plan A right? If so, Plan A your WW and your kids. Showing you are a great father will likely resonate somewhere in WW, under all of that fog.

What are your plans while WW has DS? I hope you are going to do something nice for you.

This is EXACTLY why we do not recommend MC when there is an active affair!!

GJM,

Basically, the therapist validated her infidelity because she was unhappy

They seem very good at throwing drowning people anchors, and then billing them for the service.

God Bless
Gamma

EXACTLY! Now you see why I said it would be better for your marriage to go get a pedicure?

Quote

MIL was a promiscuous woman as well. Very bad example to WW and her sisters.

Often the apple doesn�t fall far from the tree.

Quote

WW said she was furious because that was her family and why would they help me. She also said that what was my thought process. I said to get some support for her to work on the marriage. She said this is between us not anyone else. She also said to leave her family out of it.

WS are ALWAYS furious after exposure. You usually hear some variation of what she said to you, along with something along the lines of �I was willing to try to work things out with you before you did this�. Shame is a powerful emotion, if what she did was right, why does she feel such fury for you simply telling the truth?

Quote

When she left I told her I did it for us and I love her. Not in a begging way of course. I said it matter-of-factly.

Quote

I asked her if she was blaming me for her being the bad guy and she said nope.

Great job! This is EXACTLY how you handle it. Also tell her that you aren�t about to apologize for doing what you can to keep your family intact and try to start the process of building a new marriage. Don�t get caught up in the drama, just stay calm and resolute.

Quote

I know some of you are saying I should have kept him or not made him go. If I would have made a scene about it, the conflict would have gotten worse and it would have become a tug of war.

Actually no, I wouldn't recommend that you try to keep your son or any of your kids from her. Some of the other posters said that there's always the possibility that she will try that with you, and of course that often happens. But the spouse who does this looks very bad in the eyes of the court. That's why it is very important for you to try to expedite the process of getting at least a temporary custody order set so both of you know what your rights are and no one does something unfortunate. Understand GJM that if there is an altercation that I can almost guarantee that you'll be arrested. Doesn't matter if you are right or not, doesn't matter if there's no physical contact, with VAWA all your wife has to do is say she's "intimidated" or "afraid" of you, and you'll be out of your house and away from your kids for a minimum of a month. There are a lot of judges who don't even ask questions before rubber-stamping apporvals of R.O.s.

In turn she and her attorney will use this time to try to paint you as an abusive spouse that she is trying to escape from, and ask the court to award her custody based on the need for the R.O. Get a legal document in place and this can't happen to you, ok?

Until then, one thing I would do if I were you is to get a VAR and keep it on you whenever your WW comes to the house. For your protection against any manufactured incidents and the start of the rollercoaster ride to get you out of your house.

You can still Plan A, GJM, as long as you can keep your cool and not react to provocations, but prepare yourself for the worst. You're a military man so like Clausewitz said don't prepare for what you think your wife WILL do, prepare for what she CAN do.

She can't get me out of my house because she already left. I won't be confrontational at all. I've been getting control over my emotions more and more. My kids said they don't talk to my WW when they're with her. I will have them this evening until Next Friday so it will be great having them back again.

GJM & ML,

EXACTLY! Now you see why I said it would be better for your marriage to go get a pedicure?

To be fair counselors do have about the same success rate as toxic friends, prostitutes, lawyers and OW/OMs at bringing a marriage back from the brink.

God Bless
Gamma

On a scale of 1-10 regarding saving the marriage WW put a 3. She said she never should have gotten married because she was too young. Same excuses as you guys have said. Her perception of me is that I'm controlling.

What was she filling out?

Your wife's lawyer:

Your Honor, my client left the marital home because she feared her husband would become physically abusive as he has in the past when she tried to discuss dissolution of their marriage due to his verbally abusive and controlling behavior. She felt that he would not harm the children and wanted to have the time and opportunity to seek legal relief from the coercive and abusive relationship she had with her husband. We respectfully request that my client be given exclusive use of the marital home so that she can adequately care for her minor children for whom she should also be given primary physical custody. We further request that there be liberal visitation for the father with the stipulation that there be an intermediary for the handoff to minimize contact between my client and the father. My client does not wish to minimize the father's presence in the children's lives but does not wish further contact with him.

Don't THINK it won't happen, KNOW it won't happen by having something in place ASAP. Her moving out doesn't really handicap her much at all.

Do you play chess GJM? The simplest opening move, pawn to King 4, sets up the rest of the game and allows you to control the vital middle of the board and maneuver your more powerful pieces, with the secondary benefit of making it not possible to be blindsided and checkmated in 4 moves. A temporary order of custody is pawn to King 4 in a very serious high stakes game you are about to play. Promises and agreements don't mean jack until the order is signed by the judge - remember that.

AJ, all his lawyers would have to do is present copies of the emails with the OM to counter the "why" she moved out, and counter any "controlling" accusation..."Of course my client appeared controlling when he demanded that his wife stop screwing another woman's husband, your honor."

File on grounds of adultery.

I finally talked to the OMW! What do we do now?

How did it go? Did she know, like you'd been told? What are her plans? Is she working on the marriage?

Did she have any new information for you?

Fill us in!

Of course. If you are a man with an opinion who does not allow her to completely roll over you then you are "controlling." The favorite refrain of every self centered, manipulative, abusive female.

She said she's been tracking him on his phone. Everything he's done with my WW was during the day around lunch time. And nothing has happened since Sept. She called WW and spoke to her and OM. The OM is mad that I called her and wants my phone number.

What is he mad about? Did you send the OMW the emails you have?

Also, didn't you report the OM to his chain of command? That loser has some NERVE being mad at you.

Nor do I believe the affair is over. Your wife didn't move out because you were singing too loud in church.

Who told you this? Does your wife know you called the OMW? What did the OMW say to your wife? Does your wife still go to that gym?

CAn you be a little more forthcoming here?

The OMW told me OM was mad. WW works at the gym.

Is the OM's wife on the same page with you in terms of busting the affair? Does the OM's wife understand that there was/is an affair?

Your wife might get dumped today now that the secret's out!!

GJM,

She said she's been tracking him on his phone. Everything he's done with my WW was during the day around lunch time. And nothing has happened since Sept. And now she has anther set of eyes on her WH, I would guess that makes her feel less alone in this mess.

She called WW and spoke to her and OM. Good your W needs to know that her actions were not just a betrayal of GJM, but of other innocent parties.

The OM is mad that I called her and wants my phone number. Bravo the grenade landed right in the middle of the enemies tent. Ask him why he betrayed his pledge to the Marine Corps?

God Bless
Gamma

The OM is mad that I called her and wants my phone number.

Give him your number! (Actually, tell him it's your number, but give him the number of your base chaplain!)

GJ, do I have to DRAG this out of you? He is mad about what?

And does the OM still go to the gym?

Sorry, he's mad cuz he's saying he hasn't spoken to my WW since Sept and he's been working on his marriage. He goes to a different gym now. We have 3 on the base

My WW showed up at my house furious cuz the OMW called her. She threatened our marriage to be over if I did call her. I held my ground though. My DS told WW that he didn't like her.

GJM,

he's mad cuz he's saying he hasn't spoken to my WW since Sept and he's been working on his marriage.

It's very kind of him to get over this affair so quickly, is he using your marriage counselor by any chance? Encourage OMW to get a lie detector test and a keylogger for his PC.

God Bless
Gamma

He is mad at YOU? That [censored] has alot of nerve. You have every right to speak to his wife about his affair with your wife. If he doesn't like it, then maybe he should not have affairs with other mens' wives.

It is good for you to touch base with the OMW so you can keep tabs on them. Will she agree to watch from her end? And did you tell the OMW that your wife has now moved out and it is highly likely the reason was to carry on the affair?

'

Did you tell your wife you most certainly did call her? She needs to know you are in touch with the OMW and will be keeping tabs on them.

You surely did tell her, didn't you?

I did tell her my WW moved out and we are on the same page. We're sorting out the details.

Perfect!

Now, tell your kids. And I want to make damn sure your wife knows YOU called the OMW.

I told her. She ended up calming down. She looks sad now, but is trying not to show it.

Remember this

all the venom she shoots at you will be tough to hear but you stand firm.

Do not try to educate her about the rightness of exposing her affair.

Just ride out any tirades she spits out (and she will).

It is no fun for the betrayed but shows your strength....no matter the threats she states (marriage over, gone for good, telling lies about you, etc).

Breathe. Try to minimally address her statements as you
breathe. You can make eye contact with her as she blows but soften your eyes and do not make dialog with her while she is ranting. Anything you say will be bent right now. A good comment to state at some point is "I will fight for my marriage." Nothing else added.

ok, GJ, let's drive this home today. Can you finish this off today and move forward? Tell your kids all about her affair, the OM, and tell them you are doing what you have to do to save your marriage. Encourage them to speak to their mother. They have a right to know that she broke up their family for a big fat nothing. And I don't give a DAMN if she denies it.

I suspect this affair has just gone far underground and this may just kill it. Telling the kids also prevents her from EVER bringing the OM around them because they know that loserboy is the enemy of their family.

Waaaaaay back when, when I gave you the NG BH SK, if you recall the last line was "Brace yourself!"

Okay, start thinking pre-emptively here. If you were as blindingly mad as your WW is, and you WERE your WW, what would you do to GJM to ruin his life?

In most cases, WWs resort to the tried-and-true (and probably MORE true in a military setting) tactic of pulling the old "bogus domestic violence complaint" ploy. I would put some SERIOUS thought into preventing that from happening.

• Get that mini-audio-recorder we discussed and make sure you have it "on" whenever you are near her.
• As often as feasible, have a third-party present during those interactions, ESPECIALLY if it's an unexpected "I have to talk to you immediately" request.
• After EVERY face-to-face, write down in a notebook where the meeting was, when the meeting started, when it ended, what was discussed. It should reinforce your retained audio recordings.

The other likely attack will be financial. Double-check that she has no access to your funds. Cancel any credit-cards you share. Consider pulling the tags off any vehicles she uses that are owned in your name, and yank her off your insurance, giving her warning in both cases to make arrangements for her own contracts.

As far as talking to her, do not get creative. "I did what I had to do to end your affair and possibly save our marriage," repeatedly, until her ears bleed, should be the basis of your responses to her affair-fogged ramblings and rants.

I will finish it off this evening when they get home. This morning I took my older DS (11) to get his phone and he went in WW apt to get it. I stayed in the car. I found the key on the floorboard and told WW I had it. She accused me of making copies. I said I don't need to make copies, if I wanted one I would go to the front office. She said whatever!

Financially, I already took care of the CCs and joint accounts.

Congrats, GJM, you just took a big step to kill this affair.

Whether or not you save the marriage is a big question, but OM will drop WW like a hot potato because it sounds like a man who just wanted a lunch time booty call.

I'd make sure that when WW is in one of her reflective moments or giving you grief about how great the OM is that you remind her that she was just a lunch time booty call.

A lot has happened....OM called me and asked me to stop calling his wife. WW said if I was the one that called OMW then it was over. I found out all the details. My DS overheard the conversation about the OM. WW came over and brought the kids stuff then threw her wedding rings on the counter. She said she was going to get to the bottom of things and if I started all this stuff then it's over. She said to file the papers and start a new life without her. I said ok and she left.

Now what?

You do understand this means the affair is still on, right?

And I am confused. Your wife DOES KNOW you called the OMW, right?

Have you told the children about the affair?

ok, GJ, I don't think you are being completely upfront with us and we can't help you if you aren't.

I can't make any sense of your situation because nothing makes sense. I don't even know what to tell you because I don't understand.

Melodylane at 3:00: Now, tell your kids. And I want to make damn sure your wife knows YOU called the OMW

GJ at 3:10: I told her. She ended up calming down. She looks sad now, but is trying not to show it.

Then you just said at 7:18: "WW said if I was the one that called OMW then it was over."

Why would she say that if you told her at 3:00 today it was you?

Don't say "Okay." to her saying its over.
Next time she speaks with you you listen to her tirade and if you need to say something, you say "I am simply responding to your actions." nothing else. Say it calmly and do not get drawn into her dramatic tantrum.

She is the one having the affair. Not you. Do not forget that.
Don't have angry outbursts back at her. No disrespectful judgement statements.

Silence is golden on your part as she is in an uproar.

Whatever she does from here, again, her actions to either save the marriage and family or not. You stay true to saving it.

And your response?? do we have to pull teeth to get basic information?

Sorry. I denied it at first. Then I said it was me. I stayed calm though and said we could fix it. My boys now know the truth. DD is at the movies. I'm afraid to tell her, but I know I have to. I'm gonna catch a lot of crap from her family.

I told him to get the truth out. He said nothing has happened since Sept. I said I wanted to make sure your W knew the truth. There are consequence for your actions and now two families are destroyed because of you.

GJ, you need to man up here, my friend. You are acting like you are in the wrong for calling the OMW and they are now using your inappropriate guilt to indict you. You need to stop that. You are handing them a loaded gun to use against you.

Yiou need to ASSURE your wife and this scumbag that you will stay in touch with the OMW to compare dates and exchange evidence. And what is the problem with that?

Tell that SOB OM that you certainly will contact his wife. Why would you NOT? And you had better follwo through and meet with her.

Go do the right thing and stop quaking in your boots. Stop acting liek you are the bad guy instead of them.

Stop it. You are going to ruin this whole thing if you don't stop acting scared. You have nothing to be scared about - THEY DO.

If nothing has happened since September, WHICH IS A LIE, then what is the problem with you calling his wife? You do realize the OM is a liar, right? And so is your wife.

The only reason they are angry is because you have INTERFERED with their ONGOING affair. If you allow them to scare you into silence, they will have won.

I didn't believe any of their lies. I put a military protective order (MPO) against him. His career is now done. He won't see another promotion. I didn't back down or apologize for what I did. The OMW had him on speaker phone and was yelling at him and catching his lies. She told him that he doesn't have the right to say who I could call and who I couldn't. And that those two messed up not us. Sad part is, in the end, she will work it out with him. I'm afraid I lost my WW. I stood my ground as she left, but inside I was dying.

What do I do now?

To make a rather crude analogy: It's not carelessly falling off the cliff that might kill folks; it's the sudden stop on hitting the ground. So blame the ground?

Similarly, it will not be your actions that might terminate your marriage. That process was started when she decided to jiggy with ol' Gym-Bob. Your job now is to be the ground that she goes SPLAT against.

But maintain situational awareness, okay?

I don't understand what you mean? I've taken the high road throughout this process and I'm afraid this thread will be headed to the divorcing/divorced section.

I've done so much for this family and my career. I just can't understand why this has happened to me. As I type this, I can't help but cry. I know I have to be strong for my kids. I know I have to work on myself. I just feel like a part of me has died. I know I didn't cause this. It's so unfair to me and my kids. Am I less of a man if I cry in front of the kids?

I'm afraid this thread will be headed to the divorcing/divorced section.

If memory serves, you arrived at this site with the divorce papers all drawn up and ready to be served. The exposure process, and the complicit "manning up" you have finally initiated are what give you the best opportunity to avoid that fate.

Look, the odds are still not GREAT that your marriage will survive this. But even at that, they are significantly better than letting her walk out of your life, unscarred, to begin life as OM's "quickie on demand", in her love nest.

You will be better served, btw, if you cry (if you must) where nobody can observe. Try your shower at home, if necessary. Strong and resolute are what attract women (back). Weepy and pathetic? Not so much!

She hasn't had the satisfaction of seeing me cry in a while. I am a rock when she's around now. It's when she's away that I cry, usually to myself unless my kids happen to catch me.

No you are more of a man. My kids remarked (and they were teenagers by the time Dday happened) that they were impressed at the amount of love and sorrow I showed.

Listen, ML is RIGHT. You are looking at this all WRONG.

The OM and your WW's affair was still ONGOING. That is the ONLY reason she would have moved out. Waywards only move out when they want more freedom to conduct the affair.

You have finally dealt a blow to the affair. You actually have a chance to save your M now.

Don't let up now and if OM EVER calls you again, give him a smackdown ~ hell is coming if he comes near your W again and all of that.

Now...have you exposed to your children yet?

First, you are manning UP by doing these first steps toward a goal of saving you marriage. I applaud you for that. The only thing that matters now is that the affair is killed. That is your goal.

Your mantra is to save you marriage by ending the affair. Period.

So much will have to happen after that, but stick to what you're advised to do here. There are exact steps, and you are in good shape so far!

I am so sorry for you pain. Stick to the plan!!!

QFT: A must be killed. Expose it and kill it with NO apologies.

GJM,

I applaud you, my friend. Everyone here is jumping on you a bit for not doing everything exactly right, but I say that the mission is accomplished.

Exposure is done and it has been exposed to the greatest ally you can have in this entire situation which is the OMW.

My prediction is that he will drop your WW like a hot potato.

So your WW will be left alone without OM to fulfill her needs.

Her response is typical. We told you she would do this and say this. I believe we told you she would say that she's definately gone now and going to divorce and that you just ruined any chance you had to save things.

So I commend you on taking these steps. You feel like sh*t. I get that. We all do. Exposure is the most terrifying step for a BH to take.

I've seen a pattern on this board with WH's. They aren't always, but are often, involved with other women as an opportunity. The OW (your WW) is nothing more than a sex object to OM.

This OM's reaction gives me hope for your situation in the fact that the affair will end because he obviously wants to preserve things with his BW AND you have the military discipline aspect of all of this on your side.

So now the WW is mad as he77. She will rant and rave and talk about how you're ruining her reputation and aren't helping things.

Blah, blah, blah.

Try to find a way to detatch yourself emotionally from her reactions and stick to the mantra, "I will do what I need to in order to save our marriage. What do you want to make for dinner?"

Finally, tell DD13 the full truth. She needs to know what is happening with her family and has a right to know.

She will be the maddest of all the kids and will express as much to her mom.

The exposure bomb has been dropped. Your burden at this point is to carry on with Plan A and prepare yourself legally if necessary.

Let her huff and puff. Don't make anything easier for her.

You're at a very low point right now, but you just took a giant step in ending this mess.

Remember that an angry WW is a good thing. It means you're disrupting the affair.

If she talks divorce, tell her that you won't talk divorce with her, you'll only talk marriage. Tell her that all divorce issues will be handled by your lawyer if it comes to that.

Finally, my friend, I can tell you this: Divorce is NOT the end of the world if it comes to that.

I was devastated. I thought it was the end of my world. I ended up at a psych ward at Walter Reed hospital for a week. It was truly rock bottom.

It took a few years to feel completely normal again. Divorce is all about adjusting yourself to the new "normal." That means adjusting to a visitation schedule. It means learning to be alone again when the kids aren't around. It means dipping your toes into the dating world once more.

It is a long and painful process, but it isn't always a terrible one if you keep the right attitude.

You see, your marriage is dead. Whatever you had before is truly dead. The only thing that can happen now is that you will rebuild a new marriage. Whether it is with your WW or with another woman down the road.

You will rebuild. You will come out ahead again.

5 years after the fact I feel that my ex leaving me was one of the best things she ever did for me. My only regret is in how I handled myself at the time. I didn't have the strength to do what you have done. You'll be able to look back and say that you attacked the affair and you fought for your kids right from the start.

5 years after the fact I'm happily remarried to a woman that is leaps and bounds a better match for me.

So all I'm saying to you is that your life could go either way from here. You'll either be able to rebuild your marriage, or you will go down the path of divorce, but either way you're still a young man with many great years ahead of you.

So cry away. Grive what has happened. But keep in the back of your mind that this isn't the end and that your kids need you in their lives no matter what happens.

I've never been so humbled and saddened in my life. I had a tough life growing up in gangs and not having a mother and father raise me. I have been to combat. Everything I could have ever wanted in my life, I did it. I knew I wanted the best for my family so they didn't have to grow up like me. I tried so hard to be a good husband and father. I got closer to God. I was the guy everyone went to with their problems. I helped people on the side of the road and gave money to homeless. I set the example with my children. We ate dinner at the dinner table. I taught manners and respect and lead by example. Was I perfect? no, but who is? I'm sorry, I'm just venting. I hurt so much right now. I know I'll get through it, because I always pull through whatever life has thrown at me. I just need a hug. I am an affectionate person and I no longer have my W to show it to and sleep with. It kills me that she gave up her wedding rings.

Bud, she wasn't wearing those rings when she was with OM. She gave those up a long time ago.

But I know things hurt.

The challenge for you is to make sure the A is dead. That will take working with OMW and following up.

Like I said, I think OM will run in the other direction. The affair may still be on in your WW's head, but my gut tells me that the combination of military factors, sport screw that your WW was to OM, and the OMW's knowledge of the affair will all combine to have him dump your WW.

Helpfordad's situation comes to mind right now. His WW was incredulous that OM dumped her and ran away. She thought it all meant so much more to him. Wasn't the case.

I predict that in this situation.

Everyone keep in mind that the miltary factor in all of this is a very powerful thing.

Thanks...I will keep my faith and give it time. I had many chances to be with other women when I was a drill instructor. I was hit on a lot, but I exercised self control. I knew what I had at home. It's a shame how our society lives their lives as selfish, independent oriented people.

Man I know how you are feeling. Right now keep being that good example for your kids. Keep being a good Father. Keep God close and let him carry you. He is stronger than we are. You know what you have done is right. You will be able to say with pride you did the right thing no matter what.

GJM, please listen to me. You had already lost her. She was gone yesterday. She left to carry on her affair with the OM. You have now RUINED that plan. You have ruined any hope of their affair. You have more of a chance TODAY than you did yesterday. So, don't despair.

Have you been able to give the OMW the evidence you have of the affair so the OM cannot deny it? What does the OMW know about the affair?

Please pull yourself together, my friend. You have a better chance today of saving your marriage than you did yesterday. You did good!!

You're right. He is very scared of losing his career. He was telling his W that there goes his promotion and he has a lot of pressure on him now. She had him on speaker phone with me on a different line.

Have you been able to give the OMW the evidence you have of the affair so the OM cannot deny it? What does the OMW know about the affair? Yes, but she had her own evidence also. We just put the puzzle together. She caught him at a hotel, but no one was there. He tried to say it was for his buddy. He also admitted to her that he cheated. He said she didn't mean anything and she was just something to do. My WW told the OMW that he was just a F***. Makes me wonder why I'm trying to save this marriage.

((((((GJM))))))))

Here is a major hug from you. I know you are down. Sucks.

Ya know what's going to help you? I PROMISE?

Go back up a bit and read HelpFTLD, NG, and every other posts to you in the last few hours. What WILL help (trust here...experience speaking from many, many other folks here) is to have a plan.

My friend, there is nothing worse than feeling like you are not in control of your own life and future. Ask anyone diagnosed with an illness. Control of yourself (not others) = a path and plan to happiness. You must now take control of your life.

Got that? That's not a random "feel good" statement. That is a demand of you to do right now what you should do to protect your family.


Defining your own life will bring peace, and you need to define RIGHT NOW in exact terms what your life will be. That means, I will not be a doormat and have a wife banging some dude in my life.

Crude?

Yes, but factual.

GJ, I don't know if your marriage can be saved, but what you did today pushed you further towards that goal. There is more hope today than there was yesterday.

It all depends. He'll be in damage control mode now which means ending all contact with your WW. This is fantastic.

Look, the military needs overwhelming evidence of an affair in order to pursue it legally. So the emails you have help, but they may not be enough. Regardless, the chain of command isn't stupid.

Is he an officer? Are you?

I don't know how the rules on this applies to enlisted, which is why I ask.

Sometimes, if a soldier (or Marine in your case) is a respected soldier and good at what he does, the chain may look to scare the crap out of him and threaten him with escalation if things don't stop.

That might be enough. It helps if your own chain is onboard and applying pressure. Personally I'd pursue it and see that they don't just sweep this under the rug.

But regardless, he'll want to save his own butt and will drop WW.

Like Melody says, you have a better chance today, after what you did, than you did yesterday.

You've isolated your WW and that's good.

Question for you: Does WW have many female friends or is much of a social person?

I ask because my ex had, and still doesn't have, many friends of her own. I consider such a thing a red flag in a woman.

Just wondering if yours is like this or not. This could be indicative of your chances for saving things.

Hmmmm. I just caught the whole thing about OM being just a f*** for your WW.

That is a very bad sign, in my opinion.

There may be a lot more at play with your WW in terms of boundaries, social issues, mental health, etc.

"Hmmmm. I just caught the whole thing about OM being just a f*** for your WW."

Don't they all/often say that when busted? OP thrown right under the bus as just a f---?

Hear that, G? Stick to the plan!

You hit the nail on the head. She doesn't have many friends. She never was a social person like me. She keeps to herself. I tried to introduce her to other wives throughout our marriage. I believe there are deeper issues within her that only she will be able to sort out.

Agree, Surfer. Most waywards make this claim when caught red handed. The other person "meant nothing.." blah, blah, blah,.....

Thank you

GJM,

I may be waaaay off base here, but ask you this question for a specific reason:

Did your wife ever suffer from any kind of abuse as a child?

I found out AFTER my D, that my WXW was abused as a child. I did a little research and suddenly a lot of things made sense. I finally understood the distrust towards strangers, the awkwardness in some of our interactions with other couples, the lack of social graces, and the absence of female friends.

My ex did make some friends, but she discards friends very easily and doesn't keep in touch. The friendships are often very shallow.

I share this with you because IF this is one of the problems with your WW, then the issues are much deeper than just an affair.

That's a long term thing to look at down the line. But if you do ever set out on the road to recovery you'll have to deal with this issue.

But, like I said, I didn't find out this MAJOR secret until after my D from my WXW and the research I did on the subject was extremely revealing and tons of things made sense at that point.

There was abuse from her mom and she had no father around. But you know what? I was abused and had no parents around. I know everyone is different, but I can see your point.

And it's funny because I recognized these things and offered counseling to her, but it was coming from me so she took it as an insult.

Did you expose to your daughter ?

I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time on that. It is important to recognize it as a possible contributing factor, recognize it and move towards building healthy boundaries that prevent future A's.

Should I not contact her? She hates my guts right now anyway. When I told my DD last night, she didn't really say anything, but for the first time in a very long time, she hugged me.

I would be real careful right now to AVOID coming across as begging, needy or pleading. A wayward spouse will use such reactions to maintain control of you. Your wife is very manipulative and sneaky and you can't allow her to control you anymore.

I would back off a little until things die down. And I would encourage you to start keeping us informed about the sitution. Your vagueness is making it almost impossible to help you. I can't help you if I don't understand what is going on. You have to keep us in the loop here and I have felt like I am pulling teeth just to get basic facts. I really want to help you, but I need you to be more forthcoming to do that.

I'll try to be less vague. My WW changed her FB status to not being married anymore. That one hurts a little. She called and said that if she loses her job, she's not going to be cordial to me anymore. I told her that I wasn't the one that caused all of this, you and the OM did this. I said I'm just trying to save my marriage. Then she said that I shouldn't have contacted the OM command because she hasn't seen him or talked to him since Sept and that she could care less about him. I told her that if she didn't care about him, why is she so concerned about his MPO. She said it was supposed to be between her and I and that she promises nothing has happened since she got caught and doesn't understand why this whole thing came up again. I said I'm just trying to save the marriage. Then she said I was right, her and the OM caused this, but nothing has happened since then. I said as long as you know that none of this was caused by me and that I've always taken the high road and done things because they were right in order to save our marriage. She said ok.

My only problem is Thanksgiving. I have the kids for the week. This would be the first time in the kids lives that we weren't together for the holidays if this thing blows up anymore. I really don't know what to do since I am not making contact with her.

I haven't been begging, needy or pleading at all.

Thanks for giving me this kind of information. It helps me to see how you are handling things and I think you are handling them just RIGHT.

As far as Thanksgiving, just plan on having a wonderful dinner for your kids. If she calls, let her know she is welcome to attend. Don't sweat it. Let her sweat. You just focus on having a wonderful dinner for your kids.

What about your parents? Where are they? Have you told them about the affair? Do they live close by where you and the kids could have dinner with them?

And does your wife know you have told the kids? If not, I would let her know that you have told the kids all about her affair and why she left. If she says again that the affair ended in September, just let her know that the truth of that will come out in the ongoing investigation of the OM and that you don't believe that.

Way to go.

Ride the waves and be in plan A.

Invite her to participate in things but don't have expectations of her responding nicely. You are showing that you are a strong and brave and amazing man.

It will make her do a lot of soul searching. She will try to bait you to be nasty so that she can justify betraying you. Don't play into that at all.

What about your parents? Where are they? Have you told them about the affair? Do they live close by where you and the kids could have dinner with them?

I don't know my parents or where they are. My grandparents are deceased and they raised me.

And does your wife know you have told the kids? If not, I would let her know that you have told the kids all about her affair and why she left. If she says again that the affair ended in September, just let her know that the truth of that will come out in the ongoing investigation of the OM and that you don't believe that. [/quote]

I told her that the kids know and she asked me what they know. I said that you left to be with someone else and she said whatever. I left so I could make my own decisions and not have to deal with answering to anyone. Then she said there is no one else and doesn't want anyone else and that all ended in Sept. She said she just wants to be left alone.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to her doing that soul searching so she can see how good she had it here. Whenever she starts pointing fingers, I just say I did it because I'm trying to save our marriage.

I was abused as well. So were a lot of people here, and everywhere else. Please don't be distracted by trying to analyze your WW's childhood. That's not important right now.

She's not going to be cordial to you anymore?? OOOOOOOO, scary! Put this on 'ignore', GJM. It's just wayward-speak. And the FB thing? Typical wayward move. Ignore it.

You think you're the only one thinking about this? Trust me, friend. She's thinking about that as well. The timing of this exposure was pretty priceless. There's NO WAY OM is going to have anything to do with your WW - his wife has him squarely under her scrutiny and he's tossed your WW into the ditch.

That leaves your WW with no husband, no children, few friends, no OM, and no one to look at but herself. During a major family-oriented holiday time. That's not a pretty scenario for her.

I'd let her stew for a bit. She'll go from enraged, to frustrated, to feeling sorry for herself. And then she's going to start examining her options and realize that the only option that will serve her best will be to return home. She's going to attempt to do that under HER terms, because she is still a selfish wayward right now, and as far as she's concerned it's all about her.

Don't let her dictate her return. That's YOUR job. Get your list of requirements together that she will have to agree to in order to return to the M. Set the bar high and let her know that she agrees or she doesn't come back.

Stay calm - for yourself, your kids and her. You are firmly in the driver's seat, GJM. I know this probably seems hopeless right now, but I suspect she'll be wanting to talk to you very soon about coming back to the marriage. Be ready for that.

Good job, getting to the kids first! This is what she planned to tell them, and you beat her to them with the truth.

Ok OMW is asking about spyware for OM phone. He has Samsung Transform for Sprint.

Tell her to try flexispy. http://utilities.flexispy.com/checkphones.jsp?p=0

Some of the models have built in GPS.

Thank you.

flexispy doesn't support the Transform and eblaster doesn't say if it shows emails or social sites

Tell her to google her "phone type + spyware".

ARe you sure? Do you have the model #? The phone types listed on flexispy show the model #s.

oooooooooh, is that an ANDROID?? Then she can download eblaster, which is $65 and has a built in GPS. It doesn't record emails, though. It shows texts, websites visited, phone calls, etc.

Yes...model number SPH-M920 isn't on there.

Here is a back up app she can install on his phone that will allow her to LISTEN to his conversations remotely. It acts like a BUG: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2558049#Post2558049

GJ, tell her to install eblaster AND the cerberusa app. That will give her alot of intel plus a built in GPS.

They were smart enough not to text or call each other. Communication was through email. I'm trying to find something that will log everything, especially web and email content.

I will tell her. Thanks

hmmmmmmmmmmmm eblaster will tell her about any web-based accounts he visits and that might lead her to his email account. But I don't know of any that log emails.

With the eblaster she will have GPS and with cerberusa, she will have the ability to BUG his conversations. That will give her ALOT right there.

They have to be meeting up so she would be able to get proof if she has a GPS and a voice recorder.

Have a look round our spying forum!

She has a GPS locator on his phone. She just needs something that will show email addresses. I found some other programs that she's looking into. WW tried to tell me to lift the MPO so we could all move on with our lives. I said if you don't care about him, then what does it matter what happens to him. She said she didn't think about his family at the time and she doesn't want the guilt of them suffering because of her. I responded with: cause and effect. You both said you had so much to lose in your emails so you were aware of the consequences of your actions. What about our kids? Did you think about them? She said our kids will eventually get over it. I said wow.

Let me know what you find out, ok? If there is a such a program we can make a post about it on the Op Investigate forum.


It's in his family's best interest for him to be held accountable for his wrongdoing. That will help him be a better man in the future and learn his lesson. It is very clear that the affair is still on and he is pushing her to get you to stop the investigation. That is one of the smartest things you did.


I guess the OM's kids "will just get over it" too, huh?

My only problem is Thanksgiving. I have the kids for the week.

"Having" them is not the problem. "Not Having" them would be!

Enjoy your week with them. As difficult as it will be, do NOT let them see you as anything but upbeat, comfortable in your own skin and actions, and bestowing upon them all the careful attention that they will require. I don't care how much YOU are hurting, amigo; they have the potential to be hurting a whole spitload worse.

We have often awarded "hero" badges to BSs who carry the load for themselves and their children. You have the opportunity to earn yours. (In the best cases, the returned WS has superseded OUR hero award with a more personal one. That should be your aim.)

Avoid answering the "why" questions about the situation. Quite frankly, you do not yet have the answers yourself, so stay with the standard, "Married couples should do what is required to handle any issues internally, NEVER going outside the marriage for what should be managed inside."

GJ, what are you having for Thanksgiving dinner? Do you know how to cook?

I think you should start focusing on your CHILDREN and creating a happy, stable life for them without their mother. They have been hammered by her selfish, self destructive behavior for so long.

Can we help you figure out a Thanksgiving menu?

I do know how to cook. I follow instructions very well too. I am playing cards with DS8 and talking to DS11. DD13 is on the computer. Everyone is happy and enjoying not being in the 1BR. I'll gladly accept menu ideas. I also need dinner ideas. I can make spaghetti, chili and rice, steak, tacos, brats, and chicken items. Anything on the grill is easy as well.

Thanks! And for Thanksgiving we will have turkey, mashed potatoes, gravy, corn and apple pie at the minimum. I can handle those (I think).

Stuffing! A box of Stovetop is easy and tastes delish!

Just make sure you remember to take out the giblets and neck(sometimes they are at both ends). I knew to take out the giblets from TV shows, but I forgot the neck the first time I made a turkey. Learned my lesson now though.

Lol! Thanks for the tips.

I'm about to make spaghetti for dinner. Should I send an invite to WW?

Hard to say. It would be the plan A thing to do. Don't make it anything other than a quick note and act as if all is well if she comes. Do not talk relationship stuff if she comes.

Well sent the invite. I texted would you like some dinner..no response so I assume not.

Good job, GJM!

That's all right. You're doing well, keep it up

Regarding Turkey Day: the biggest tip I have is to do some of the prep work the night before so that you don't have to be so hectic the day of. You can peel and cut the potatoes, prep the turkey and make the stuffing [It's pretty easy, please don't make stovetop! *cringe* ~ sorry, reading ]

Have to step in here as an emergency response. (T/J)

Stovetop ROCKS all year round! It's a seperate food group just like potato buds are. Get real with these perfect foods, people! Bahahahaha!!!

Dinner was a success. I cleaned up the kitchen and folded the laundry. Now I'm feeling emotional. The kids are so happy to be here though and that makes me happy. Nothing fills the void of not having the person I thought was my life long companion around. The emptiness I feel is so much to take. DS8 tried to call WW and she didn't answer. I sent her a text to let her know that it was him that called. I still didn't get a response. When my children are with her, I text and call them every day. She doesn't even bother when they are with me. It's very saddening. Tomorrow will be a new day and I hope to be a little stronger.

Don't let that discourage you - you're wearing horns right now.

Stay cheerful with her. Because you ARE the best choice she could make. Stay confident and don't forget that.

And don't forget the parmesan.

Look at the extremes you're dealing with. You just had a warm family dinner with your children, who are happy to be home with you. But your WW wasn't there, an obvious missing element. You're missing her, simply enough. And you're dealing the pain of the kids missing their mom. It's a lot to process, GJ. But you CAN. Get the kids into bed and then read the articles on this site. I suspect you'll need them because I don't think your WW is going to be out of your house for very long. Just my opinion.

Maritalbliss,
If you're right, you will be my new best friend! I hope she won't be gone for long, but I will stay focused on what you all have told me to do. She actually sent me a text saying she was sorry she didn't answer the phone. She had just woken up and she wasn't feeling well because her side hurt. I offered her some medicine and said that I hoped she felt better soon. She said thanks. That will be the last contact for today.

The kids and I went and got ice cream to enjoy at home. It's the little things in life that we enjoy.

...I don't think your WW is going to be out of your house for very long.

Which brings up a good point. It is not too early to put together a list of conditions on which you will PERMIT her to come home. Too often we see here BHs who so desperately want their WWs to return, that they open their arms and hearts to the returnees.....but find NOTHING there - no remorse, no commitment, no NOTHING. What then ensues is a resentment-filled standoff betwen the two - the BH trying to hope that things can just "get better", and the WW still pining for her star-crossed love, resentful that she and he were separated.

I am under the impression you want a marriage, not co-habitation. You're going to have to make that plain to WW BEFORE she comes home.

Enjoy your children this week. They need you more than they'll be willing to reveal.

You're doing GREAT. I just wanted to remind you that MB plans are to be done without any expectations. You invite her to dinner because you want her there and it is the right thing for a husband to do. You don't expect her to come or not to come. Your part is done when the invite is sent out.

I also agree with NG. You need to figure out your conditions now so you will keep that bar set HIGH.

T/j. I also LOVE stovetop. My mom makes 6 boxes in the turkey and it is the first thing we run out of. Mmmmmmmm. I have even eaten a box for dinner in my youth. Yumm-o

As nice as it would be to set conditions, I have no clue what they would be. Not to mention there's no guarantee she will return. I know I would want her to go to church with me as a family. NC with any males. Communication is a must. No more privacy. She would have to be an open book like me. That's all I can think of for now.

Mornings are very difficult for me. I find that I'm very emotional during that time. Tears fall for no reason and everything is sad to me. I dropped my DD13 off this morning to go with her cheer squad to Universal Studios and cried when I drove away. Then I made a drive to WWs apt to see if her car was there. It was, but I got no satisfaction from it.

GJM, don't be so hard on yourself ~ Plan A/dealing with an active wayward is trying for most people. Dr Harley recommends ADs if you are struggling. Just thought I'd throw that out there to think about. I know it has helped many people, including my sister.

When I first got here, my H was not in the house and I got some good Plan A advice on how to handle communicating with him. I will be back.

Hang in there

Thank you for the lists. I will start reading them more often. I'm going to watch football with the boys and take them to church and get haircuts. DD13 probably won't be home until late this evening. When I first woke up I just felt overwhelmed. I prayed for God to bring my WW home. I know it will take some time. The door seems like its closing, but from what you all have said, that's what WSs do to try and get you to react. I won't allow her to make me the reason that all of this happened. Thanks again everyone.

Sent WW at text to try to be the first one she spoke to today. Me: Good morning. I hope you're feeling better today. WW: Thx...did DD13 get off ok to Univ Stud? Me: Yes, I gave her money and she took her phone and a jacket. I met with the father that was driving the kids as well. WW: cool. Me: Did you know DS8 was using baby lotion as body wash? WW: No. Me: You should have seen his face when he asked me to hand him his body wash. WW: Lol

I hope that wasn't too much contact.

Nice, I like it!!

God has sent you an army of help, GJM. Make sure you thank Him and praise His Goodness as well.

I do everyday.

OMW just sent me a text saying that she was kicking him out and he would be staying with a friend near the apt where WW is. This is not good news. She said he may try to convince her to stay and he may decide he doesn't want to leave because the house belongs to both of them.

Why did she kick him out?

And actually it is good news. I will explain in my next post.

No, this is good news. But I see that my friend MelodyLane is going to explain that to you, so I'll refrain - you'd just be hearing it twice if I chime in.

She always types faster than I do, anyway.

She kicked him out because she feels he isn't learning or taking responsibility for his actions. She said he needs to feel the heat and she's tired of hurting with him around.

hmmmm, I am not getting that. I suspect he is not showing any remorse and it has ticked her off royally. And she is right to be ticked off. With a wayward HUSBAND, if he does not have hat in hand then he is not really sincere. And I believe he is not sincere because the affair is still on and has just gone further underground.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? If not, please go get that today from the bookstore and read it. You need to read the story of Sue and Jon.

And this is not bad news that the OM is moving out because it will likely flush the affair out into the open. That will cause more conflict because they both have so much to lose due to this affair. Without the OMW meeting his needs, it will all fall to your wife and she won't/can't meet his needs. That will cause more conflict.

The OM now has lost his wife and home for an affair that he can't even openly pursue because of his military status. He has some serious choices to make, and one of them will get him in big legal trouble.

According to her, he isn't easily broken, but he knows he has a lot to lose and has been stressed out about what's going to happen to him at work. She said he needs a few days for reality to sink in. He's acting like he isn't going anywhere and is dragging his feet. She isn't sure that he will go to those apts, but she thinks it's possible. I don't have the book, but I will get it.

What should I do in the mean time?

Get your house cleaned up and ready for your Thanksgiving gathering! Just keep being a great father to your kids and try to not allow her drama and selfishness distract from your family. You are doing a great job, GJ!

Thank you

This is all good stuff, GJM! My money is on him staying in his marital home. Less than a week ago you were told OMW wanted to work on her marriage. Now she's ready to give him the boot. She's on the rollercoaster. They may well end up in hysterical bonding before the evening is out.


He's got enough stress going on right now. I doubt he'll compound it by going through the whole business of moving out. The whole world is now crashing down on his head. And you know why? Because he thought it'd be a good idea to boink your WW. I suspect she's not looking like a good option for him anymore.

In the meantime, take care of those kids. Do something fun with them tonight. Make homemade pizza with them - let each one pick his own topping. And be good to yourself.

No she isn't a good option for him anymore. His career is at risk and she is worried about getting fired from her job.

Those are the consequences they face, my friend. As they de-fog, they'll realize that they also faced much bigger consequences in the possible loss of their marriages and families.

I find the Chef to be very child-friendly for pizza making.

Atena says CHEF BOYARDEE is rolling over in his grave at what we Americans did to his eye-talian food. Silly foreigners do not appreciate good food! Apparently she has never had Spaghetti-o's!

With meatballs, yum! (And if anyone says that's not real meat I'll punch him in the nose! )

I just bought some yesterday - a buck a can! So they're economical, too!

Okay, GJM, I'll quit t/j'ing your thread...I think I'll go crack a can open and microwave it up with some bread and butter...

Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.

She kicked him out because she feels he isn't learning or taking responsibility for his actions. She said he needs to feel the heat and she's tired of hurting with him around.

A LOT of that being demonstrated in your neck of the woods, it seems!

On an earlier post you expressed doubts about you knowledge of what conditions would have to be set/met before prodigal WW eventually gets let back into the family home.

Firstly, that is EXACTLY the reason I brought it up as early as this - because you cannot be expected to know that, instinctively.

Secondly, that's what we're here for. In the shortened version, to get you thinking, the answers are:

• Ironclad Extraordinary Precautions
• Absolute Transparency
• Commitment to the MB Affair Recovery Program (UA, RH, etc)

And, as an aside, dude: You're doing great. I know you think you're in a pit (and thanx to WW, you are!), but you're doing great not digging it any deeper, and working to find the way out!

GJM,

I wanted to respond, A few pages back you wrote..

I told him to get the truth out. He said nothing has happened since Sept. I said I wanted to make sure your W knew the truth.

Very controlled and mature.

There are consequence for your actions and now two families are destroyed because of you.

Really glad you told him that, instead of calling him names, you objectively described the damage he did, that will really sink in, much more effective than a punch in the mouth even.

You are doing really well,stay the course, and remember you are recovering from two affairs not one.

Take care of your family so much so that your W can't help but want to be a part of it again.

Another bonus in the unlikely case you do divorce you have nothing to hide from the next partner.

God Bless
Gamma

Spaghetti-o's!....With meatballs, yum!

Sorry, but you'd be better fed eating the paper wrapper on the can!

GJM, I just bumped the "What's for Dinner?" thread on the "Other Topics" board. Check some of those recipes out!

Thanks Gamma and NeverGuessed!

Now she's asking for cell and bank passwords!

Do I give them or no? I'm the primary on the cell phone.

Should be the opposite and you need to secure your finances accordingly.

Personally, I would NOT be giving her any passwords.

I don't want to get in trouble if I don't give them.

trouble from who?

HELL NO. In fact, if she has access to your bank account and you have any money in there, you had better move it. If she has access to any money, then you need to block it.

Let her know that because she has proven to be untrustworthy, you are not giving her access to anything.

Exactly what I asked myself...WW?

Just say in your best plan A voice
"I don't feel comfortable giving you that information. If I felt confident in our marriage, I am sure it wouldn't bother me, but it does honey."
If she asks for it again just politely say "No. I won't right now."
Don't get into arguments or discussions about it. If she tries to get into one say "I won't discuss this right now."

Just tell her the answer is no. Unless she demonstrates trustworthy behavior and lives at home, she can't have access to any of that. Be FIRM and straight up.

WW said one way or another she's going to get it. She says she has a right to it because we're still married. She said that proves I'm hiding something. I called my cell company and changed the pass code. Things are so jacked up right now. I think I've lost her for good. She said she doesn't give a rat's a** what I do and to have fun doing it.

She is still very angry about having her despicable behavior exposed. She will calm down. Try not to get swayed by her babble.

YOU'RE DOING GREAT!

You should also call and tell them to note the account that she does not have access. I know so much about my husband that I guessed his pass code first try..... Yes, I called the cell company of the Affair phone and had it cut off on him becuase he put the "usual" password on it.

Again, no lovebusting or engaging in discussion about it.
She can say whatever she wants and you do not visibly react to it.

If she wants to get a lawyer to try to force you to give her access.....she is free to do that, you just stay cool and strong. Shrug it off as best as you can. Do not get nasty about it though. Breathe.

Amazingly, one trait you can develop dealing with a wayward spouse is to be unflappable seeming and calm in the face of things that previously would have aggitated you to the max. It is one of the few plusses to the whole miserable experience.

OH, hell NO, you don't. But be nice - tell her you'll get those to her right away. And then don't do it.

Get to the bank tomorrow and get the money out, if you haven't done so already. Put the money in an account in your own name IN ANOTHER BANK.

Leave a minimal amount in the current checking account. Take everything else.

THEN give her the banking info.

Like, what - she's going to stop being courteous with you?? That kind of trouble?

She's being dramatic. Ignore this. But tie up your money.

If she was really out to get the money, she wouldn't say a word to you about it. She'd just go to the bank on Monday and pull out the money.

Tie up the family money.

When I said I would get in trouble, I meant through the military. They have a say in how I support my WW. I pay for the bills, her gas and groceries so I know that won't be a problem. I changed all of the accounts to make sure that I am protected.

Well done. You've done what you can do.

DS8 asked to call WW and they talked for a bit. WW asked to talk to DS11 and he said no. DS8 heard her start crying before she hung up. I feel bad, but I know that it's a good thing in a way.

Sorry that this is happening, but yes, WW needs to feel the consequences...hard.

You are doing great, GJM.

Your poor babies have to feel the pain, too. WW needs to know this with no shelter.

Stay strong.

Because DS11 wouldn't talk to WW on the phone, she texts me that she wants longer custody visits. She said that it's not fair that I get to keep the base housing and reap all the benefits when this is the kids' home. And that every time the kids are with her, she has to work twice as hard to get them to talk to her. I said I didn't want her to move out and this is her home too. She said "ya I know." I said the kids need both of us equally and she said maybe. I asked her if she wanted me to give up our home and she said she didn't know. WW said that she was with them for 13 years and I was gone. I didn't reply to that because I know it's not true.

This is a good opportunity to let her know that the kids don't want to spend more time with her and you won't force them. Let her know how much her abandonment has hurt them and tell her you aren't going to force them. It is up to her to mend her relationship, but tell her you won't force the kids to stay with her or speak to her.

Don't use the kids to appease her and DON'T protect her from the consequences of her bad behavior. It is in all your best interest for her to suffer the consequences of her behavior. It is not in their best interest to get dragged out of their home to compensate for her selfish, destructive behavior.

She's gaslighting you.

Let her stew. You stay calm.

After today's events, I feel like she's planning something sneaky. She's losing her grasp and is backed in a corner and I think she's trying everything she can to point the finger at me or make me suffer. She wants to meet tomorrow and talk about the custody arrangement some more.

I would have someone there with you, someone impartial.

If you aren't already, I highly suggest noting when she calls, when she does anything with the kids, good or bad. A diary of this sort can be handy in your situation--where the WW who has left is trying to spin things. Note everything, EVERYTHING she does.

Whatever you do, don't agree to anything. Just listen and tell her "that is alot to think about, let me think that over and get back to you." Can you do that?

I would also stand up for your kids. They don't want to be over there all that time, so don't make them. There is no court order and no reason they should dragged around just to assuage her guilt.

Also, I want you start shifting the balance of power. She believes now that SHE is in complete charge of the situation and you will be at her beck and call. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.

Tell her you don't WANT HER to come back unless she makes ALOT of changes. Tell her clearly you don't want the old marriage back but that you are willing to give her an opportunity TO EARN YOUR FORGIVENESS but it will take a alot of on her part to prove herself to you enough to get you interested in the marriage again.

She will be SHOCKED to hear that you have conditions and are not willing to settle for less. But this is what it is going to take in order to take back control of your life and bring about a RECOVERED MARRIAGE. Because unless she does this stuff, the recovery of your marriage is hopeless.

Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. You don't want the old marriage back. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to get you interested in reconciling:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to get me interested." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Yup. No meeting. No reason for a meeting.

Stay calm, and stay with the plan. Let her panic run its course.

Agree to NOTHING and just tell her what I told you above about the kids not wanting to spend so much time there. Don't agree to anything, rather be real vague and just tell her this will have to be worked out in court.

PUT A VOICE ACTIVATED RECORDER IN YOUR POCKET!! <--------------real important

And, listen to ML.

I agree with surfer88.

She's not interested in talking about our marriage so I doubt letting her know conditions will set in. She'll probably let it in one ear and out the other.

I think what Melody's trying to show you is that if you show up strong this way, it will shock her and perhaps even ATTRACT her.

She's going to be a bit piqued about this notion of having to prove herself to you. She's used to you being desperate for her attention. She's about to realize the game just changed. This display of strength and confidence will impress her though she probably won't let you know.

She will start thinking about and respecting the fact that you've finally put your foot down with her. It's attractive.

Yes, I FULLY understand this. And she may look at you like you are on crack. But this needs to be said so she understands there has now been a shift of power and she can no longer come back unless she makes some serious changes. SHE STILL BELIEVES SHE HAS YOU UNDER HER CONTROL and can come back anytime on HER TERMS. You have taken back control of your life and if there is to ever be any future in your marriage IT WILL BE ON YOUR TERMS, NOT HERS.

See, she believes she can come back anytime anywhere and that is one of her options. YOU NEED TO DISABUSE HER OF THAT NOTION. Are you with me?

And the main reason she wants to talk to you tomorrow is that she senses she is losing control over you. She wants to get you back under her control. It is important for you to be FIRM and not cheesy tomorrow. Let her know from here on out it will be on your terms.

Women do not respect men they can run over and our love is very contingent upon the respect we feel. It is important for you to re-establish that respect with her and let her know that you will not be cooperating anymore.

Do you understand what I mean?

i want you to memorize this statement and SAY it tomorrow and say it any time you see an opportunity. Be a broken record:

"I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness." <------your task is to drive that message home.

She still sees you as an "option." You need to make damn sure she understands that you see her the same way. As an "option" that you might or might not take.

And that her "option" will not be available unless she meets your conditions.

Thank you MelodyLane...I will memorize that statement and say it. I'm feeling empowered because now she's bringing my kids into it and I'll be damned if I give them up.

Let me ask you something. Do you want your wife back AS IS? Do you WANT the same marriage back? The marriage that experienced TWO affairs?

If you had no history with your wife, would you choose to date or marry a woman who lied, cheated and who never met your needs? A woman who made you dreadfully unhappy and sad? Your wife has made you miserable. Do you want that marriage back?

No I don't want that old marriage back.

And just think, the only reason she is doing it is because SHE FEELS GUILTY. She doesnt give a RIP about their best interests at all or she wouldnt have left to chase some loser. uuuuuuuuuh no. I would let her know there will be LESS contact because this is not good for your kids. Tell her the kids don't even want to talk to her.

I sure will. I'm tired of being in this pit of misery.

You are doing great and I am sure you will do great tomorrow. what time are you meeting?

She gets off of work at 12 so I'm sure some time after that.

You SURELY are not serious with this question, right?

No I was just seeing where her head was at because the kids have their own rooms here.

Ok, I didn't think you meant that but just wanted to make sure. Carry on, Sir.

Yes ma'am

Tomorrow when you visit, just envision all the rest of us there with you for support.

I sure will.....I think about you guys every day and try to remember what you've said. I thank you all for your support and am glad that I'm not alone in all of this.

Just letting you know we are all cheering for you GJM!

Also remember, if it does goto a custody battle. You 2 oldest are at the age that the courts will take there wishes into account. They will allow them to decide who they want to live with full time and who gets visitation.

She will not be able to force them either.

You are doing great just don't back down and let her back in AS IS I like Mel sail.

Let her know what her options are to stay in the marriage, you think she doesn't care maybe right now she doesn't think she has a choice, give her something to think about...........
Be loving and firm, be the husband that stands behind his wife and family......
Be strong when she can't be.......she knows she has f**ked up.........
Tell her you will fight for your family and not because you want to break up your family but that you have no choice considering her choices........
good luck and know you are not alone, a little strength now is what is needed.......
It takes time.....

Thanks. I found out why she wants the cell password. I made a fb comment via iPhone and it said I made it via blackberry. She thinks I added a line. She asked again for the password and I said if she were willing to work on the marriage and move home, she could have all the passwords. She said wow!

If she does not pay for the phone bill why would it matter if you added a line? She is trying to control you any way she can and her hold is slipping. She can feel it and is panicking.

On the up side, she is still following you on facebook. Make sure you post a few things that you do with the kids. Make her realize what she is missing out on.

I agree she is grasping at straws but you know what no matter how she spins it she had an affair and has moved away from her family.........
She will not find a reason to use as an excuse to leave you ..........just keep saying the words I am doing what I need to do to save my marraige and my family. that you love her and when she decides that the marriage is something she wants and NC for life has been established with the OM, then she is welcome back and the two of you can work together to have a great marriage and family.........
hang in there this time line takes strength and calm........

OM had a friend call me to try to convince me to stop getting him in trouble. I said I'm not letting him off the hook. He should have thought about that before he did what he did. I lose my W and he expects me to just walk away? I don't think so.