No, this advice is not for me. I am still married to the unrepentant sort!

I do think it is a very interesting question though, which gets bandied about on here all the time. Why should I let them back in? The BS asks. Even Dr H has said he would not recover his own marriage after an affair.

Lots of people on here too, describe adultery as the 'get out of marriage free' card. None of us would blame someone who did not want to recover.

And yet there are many success stories on here. People who have recovered against the odds.

Its not an easy decision though. Many a BS struggles to decide. Not surprisingly, it seems impossible to them.

So I suppose I am asking those with that experience to share their reasons why here.

Recovery is so difficult. Why not start over fresh with someone new?

The BS didn't have the affair.
The BS was not looking to leave.
The BS could of felt the marraige was bad ok good but did not was content to stay.

In my mind is there really a "REAL MAN" out there?

I see so many immature man-boys today, that I cannot imagine a real true man is out there.

Adultery is running rampant. Is there a good man out there?

They are out there.
Can't tell by looking at them though.

How to tell which are which? Not sure.

Honestly? I stayed with my W because I loved her. I hated what she did, I surely didn't like her, I despised the actions and not being able to trust her, but I did still love her. We had time on our side by them. 18 years. Kids. history... And not all of it was a lie.

Even in the midst of her A's there was some support for me to pursue things, there was some (not much) affection shown, and I saw potential. I just didn't want anyone else.

Now that was initially...

As time passed, I began to see real change and a pattern of behavior that was nothing short of valiant... Heroic (if I can use that term in these circumstances) in terms of my support, love and concern. I began seeing a new woman...

She became what I thought she always was. My Grace.

Easy to say that when your marriage and family and everything you have worked for isn't on the line.


30 years of marriage is a lot of shared history to turn your back on
Destroying your children isn't an easy thing to do
Still love WS
WS is repentant and commits - really commits to recovery meaning works the plans here.

I stayed because before the A, our marriage was good. My then-WH forgot about its goodness because he was deployed long-term and let his always-weak boundaries really slip.

So my reasons for staying:

1.) A previously pretty good marriage (but better now with MB)

2.) Thirty years of shared history

3.) Everything we had worked for together was bound up in us being together as a married couple

4.) Sheer ANGER! Who did this b*$&# think she was--waltzing in to take everything I had helped build!?

I didn't stay for fear of being alone. Due to the long deployment, I learned I could be quite content on my own. But I wasn't going to let some OW just steal it, not if I could help it.

Edited to add: I had no illusions about finding someone really terrific if I divorced my H. Once a person reaches her 50's, the pool of really decent available men has considerably shrunk. I wouldn't want to raise someone else's kids or work out the issues with grandchildren or deal with child support and all the messy financial stuff of broken families. Also, I have many of my own idiosyncrasies that work well with those of my FWH. How would they work out with someone new?

Ditto to everything 51CD30 said.

As a self professed good guy who caught his wife having having a lta , I think it's easier to spot the animals. First, if a guy asks you out for coffee multiple times and knows your married and worse you know he's married, he's an sub life form animal. That's it. That's how you know he a predator.

In regards to working it out or moving on, I picked the former as I struggle daily with the latter.

And I am trying everyday to love her. To forget the myriad of transgressions.

And most importantly, I adore being with my kids everyday, which leaving would jeopardize. They didn't deserve her holding a gun to our family only my commitment to be their father.

Working it out makes sense.

I didn't recover, so I'm not your target, but I have a few thoughts.

My ex-husband was not the repentant sort, either. He was also verbally and emotionally abusive to me and the children, and he had stepped over the line into physical abuse of the children a couple of times.

I think it all works together. The kind of person who has an affair, but is truly repentant is more likely to have a BS who still loves them. Their marriage had more good times than bad. They have children who want to see Mom and Dad love each other again and they both love the children.

In my case, one of the children had been begging me to divorce her father for several years. My WH had destroyed all of my love and affection for him because of the way he had treated the family over the years. There were simply too many bad times during the marriage. I DID feel like I was in jail, and now that I'm divorced I'm free. I am a Christian and I had been taught over and over that divorce was not acceptable except under certain conditions. Since he had an affair, I was able to divorce my husband without feeling guilt or shame.

You mentioned starting over with "fresh" with someone new. It's not that simple. At my age, there's no such thing as a fresh start. I'm learning that the pool of available men is larger than I expected because so many people my age are divorced. But all of those men have ex-wives and children and issues. I know three men about my age who have never been married. They have a whole 'nother set of issues.

If my WXH had been a mostly good husband, and if he had been repentant, I would have been willing to do the work of recovery. He wasn't either of those things, so it didn't happen.

I guess the decision to try to stay with the WS is is like an assessment of pros and cons with the **edit** cheated on me and the deplorable decision making on his/her part heading the list on the Cons side. The Pros side has marital length and history, children involved,and to some extent financial considerations, although financial considerations can often show up on the Cons side.

I think with everything considered, the deciding factor is how the BS weighs their contribution to the state of the marriage, either good or bad, versus what the WS has done and whether they are truly repentant and contrite. It takes some pretty painful introspection to arrive at the conclusion that you weren't the greatest spouse in the world and view your behavior or attitude as a push when compared to infidelity.

So I don't wonder why people choose to try to recover or simply divorce as it is an individual decision where there is no right or wrong answer; what I wonder about are those people married to serial cheaters whose recidivism would seem to be a no-brainer for divorce or those who have children with their AP.

Quote

In my mind is there really a "REAL MAN" out there?

I see so many immature man-boys today, that I cannot imagine a real true man is out there.

Adultery is running rampant. Is there a good man out there?

Could just as easily say this about women, could we not?

Exactly.

It used to be that adultery was mostly a WH phenomenom. But there has been an explosion of female adultery over the last 50+ years since women entered the workforce in large numbers (the workplace being the most common venue of affairs) and marriage/divorce laws being greatly de-moralized (i.e. "no fault" divorce, repeal of anti-infidelity & "alienation of affection" statutes). It is now estimated that WW cheating is just as common as the WH variety and women file for ~70% of divorces in the US now.

No excuses for either gender, but it is also worth noting that this site and its proprietors acknowledge that recovering a marriage with an active-WW is more difficult and less likely for a BS than it is the other way around. It is telling that Dr. H advises BHs to not expect much apology or admission from their WWs and admits that he himself would seek immediate divorce w/o recovery attempts if his W ever had an affair.

It's impossible to quantify but the general trend indicates clearly that WWs tend to be much more addicted to their affair partners and sold out on their marriages than their male counterparts. The stubborn denial and contemptible vileness of numerous WWs here (incl. my own in the past) is something I wouldn't ever wish upon anyone.

No one condones infidelity by either sex, but believe me that there's just as many selfish, unrepentant, immature and morally bankrupt WOMEN out there as there are men.

Dr Harley does not say that. His words on this are routinely misinterpreted on this forum and the wrongful interpretation has now become "fact". It's not fact - it's folklore.

Here is what Dr Harley says:

One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity. I would never have guessed it, based on what I assumed would be my own reaction. My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me. My own response to an affair by Joyce would not be as drastic. I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again. That's what I thought I would do. But having counseled thousands of couples who have actually had that experience, I now know that I would probably do what they have done -- try to reconcile. And Joyce would not kill me if I had been unfaithful.

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4: Overcoming Resentment

Markos made a thread when Dr. Harley stated on his radio show that he would Plan A Joyce.

The thing to remember about that statement is this; that you cannot know how you would address adultery (or any other loss or trauma) until you actually have to face it.

Just imagining the experience is not enough, because everything you DO NOT imagine is just as important as what you do imagine.

You go, girl !


Why let an unrepentant spouse back in?
My advice ..... do not. If the wayward does not admit that their adultery was a very bad choice, they are too risky.
Unless they become repentant and meet your requirements.
I'd have to say that personally, if my wayward spouse had been unrepentant for longer than a few months .... I'd file for divorce. That's just me. Not Harley advice. I'd Plan B with a divorce pending. I am one tough Mama.


True.


Also true. The Mama & Papa Bear story was inspiring. When it was unfolding, I never thought PapaBear would pull it off.


I'm not sure what seems impossible. Recovery and staying married? Or getting a divorce?


Why did I try recovery?
Because my H was repentant. Right away.
He perused me.
He showed integrity. (not 100% right away, but soon enough)
I tried recovery a little at a time. "I'll try for 6 months." I did that several times until, what do you know ... things were clicking along pretty well.



Recovery is extremely difficult.
"Why am I doing this?" was in the back of my mind on a daily basis .... for at least a year. After a year, it was on my mind weekly. And so on.
One of the scarier elements of recovery (for me) was the hot-to-freezing feelings I'd have for my H. My feelings for him would turn in a second from loving to pure loathing. I used to watch him sleep peacefully while I was suffering anxiety in the middle of the night. And, I loathed him during those moments. Then, I'd watch him be with the kids, cook a meal, or tell funny stories .... and my heart would thaw.

I really remember those hot-to-cold-to-hot-to cold moments as the impetus which made me think about divorce. Why? Because it is so stressful to have such volatile feelings for one's spouse. It's damn scary.

I am 100% convinced that if my H's feelings expressed towards me showed an ounce of hesitation that he wanted the marriage, I'd be divorced today.

I am also 100% certain Mr Pep HAD such feelings. Fortunately, he was going to daily AA meetings, and had a sponsor. I'm sure he was able to vent his doubts about me & our marriage via his sponsor. God bless that man. He's still our good friend today. A tough old bird who did 2 combat tours in Viet Nam, as a Marine.
I mention my H's sponsor being a Marine because recovery requires similar discipline.
*You do the difficult job to the best of your abilities.
*You understand your mission.
*You keep going despite pain.

I regret there was no internet/MarriageBuilders during our most difficult and volatile recovery years. I would have been a more reasonable (less crazy) BW for my repentant FWH to deal with.

We made it.
Through God's Grace.

And now this .....


Because you are still experiencing an emotional whirlwind from time to time.
Because you still have an emotional attachment for your unrepentant WH. (love bank still has some remaining units)
Because you are vulnerable to someone who will flatter and charm you.
Because you will be comparing any male prospects to your wayward and that will hamper your discernment about their virtues, or lack thereof.
Simply put, you are not ready.

Any "someone new" will be a man. Any man could be capable of hurting you with an affair (or otherwise).
THAT'S the scary part.
Second marriages have a higher failure rate for many reasons.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Be particular when dating.
Be clear minded and pragmatic.
Be free of nagging/lingering doubts about your current husband.
Be already content with yourself and who you are.
Be able to resist a reflected sense of self via a man who flatters you.
Be able to discern the difference between flattery and admiration. (Guess which one has an agenda)
Be at peace with waiting for someone who is right for you, not just right away.
Be able to see 's where they exist.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And, lastly ......


The way you have phrased this question convinces me you are far, far, far from ready.
"Start over" is the wish fulfillment oft expressed by the war weary (you).
Your very question is wishful, not mindful.

Please note that this quote is a *revision* of the original article. It is quoted, as originally written, in the Dr. Harley would Plan A Joyce" thread. The quote is posted by Mr. W on the first page.

Those who quote the older are likely unaware of said revision.

Review and revision is one of the marks of professionalism exhibited by Dr. Harley (think about the SAA revision with more emphasis on exposure).

Its not "folklore," its just no longer current material.

No, that's not accurate either.

The passages MrW cited were truncated. They were also routinely misused by posters here. The wider context, which you could only see by reading the whole article, was that Dr Harley was discussing the things most people said before infidelity ever happened to them, and the contrast between that and what many people did AFTER it had happened to them.

He was making the point that, in common with many people, Mrs Harley had said that she would kill him, and he had always thought that he would leave. BUT: It seemed not to work that way for many people when it actually happened to them.

That was the point that I always understood him to be making. The article was about how amazing it was that people wanted to recover their marriages after betrayal - but they did.

By the beginning of this year, I had read so many men here distort the message of this article by saying that Dr Harley would not recover his own marriage, and when I began the online seminar and was able to contact Dr Harley directly by email, I asked him about the article. He clarified with me that he was NOT saying that he would walk away and not look back. He was saying that he had at one time believed, like most people, that he would leave, should his wife be unfaithful. However, his experience working with couples showed him that their desire to recover would probably be shared by him. The point of the original passages was that we are surprised when we find ourselves facing the reality of an affair.

He rewrote those passages after I pointed out the way they were being used. He did that to clarify his position and to stop the misunderstandings on the board, and not because he had revised his attitude. He rewrote them because the original did not express his point clearly.

Your last paragraph is a repeat of my statement; there was a revision - as you state - to clarify and contextualize the statement.

I understood the context in the original, as on Dday I did not throw my wedding ring at NGB's face as hard as I possibly could and tell her to hit the bricks as I had previously imagined I would have. This was stated in the aforementioned thread.

However, some of that lack of context is why this revision and clarification was a big enough deal to be posted. The "misuse" was commonly held by several posters, as you mention yourself, and was not often corrected.

In this regard, referring to this misconception as "folklore," knowing full well the proliferation of misconception as well as being directly knowledgeable of the revision, is frankly disrespectful to other board members.

Simply stating that it has been revised and clarified would be sufficient without the backhanded insult to community intelligence.

I meant no disrespect to other board members and I apologise for my backhanded insult to community intelligence.

Your grace is to be admired.

I trust if I have offended you, you will say so or notify my posts as you feel necessary.

Yes, I will.

Thank you.

*edit*

Also, THANK YOU for advocating for that revision.

I dont mean myself here, Pep. I mean if you HAVE a repentant spouse (I do not) you still may decide to divorce, with the long term goal in mind of 'finding someone new'. I.e, those in the position of choosing may still find the choice of someone who has never betrayed them, more appealing.

I am divorcing because I am married to someone unrepentant. If he remains so (and even if not - like you, I would have preferred a quicker show of repentance) I have the long term goal of finding someone new - but I agree I am nowhere near ready yet and cannot let anyone meet my needs at this time.

And you are q right - I do 'wish' I was ready! However I know that I am not.

This has been a helpful thread for me Indie, thanks.

Ditto from me. I often think how much easier all of this pain and heartbreak would be to bear if I had someone to comfort and distract me. But I can see how unhealthy and selfish that kind of thinking is.

Ditto again. More and more, and as regretful as I feel with this decision, recovery is not in my best interests. Even with a high LB$ balance that I have for the man he was, it would be easier for me to build a healthy relationship with someone new. When I am emotionally ready of course. It hurts even to write this, but it is where I am at right now.

That's encouraging. It has been troubling for me to read it and am glad that his views have been refined.

CV

I realize that.
I am using your thread as a device to obliquely speak to others. (maybe I have someone special in mind)

Recovery WAS very difficult. Interacting with the F?WS is a trigger in and of itself. I think I cried a little almost every day for at least 6 months after dday1 back in 2007.

Divorce is easier in some ways but it is harder in other ways. The divorce process itself is very stressful and not having your children with you every day and basically having very limited control of what they are being exposed to when they are visitation with the WS is hell.

So I guess what I am trying to say is even though my recovery efforts were basically thrown in my face and I was burned...again...I would wholeheartedly encourage any BS (especially one with kids) to try to recover the M if their WS is willing to get onboard with MB. Definitely.

Plan D is not really *easier*. Maybe I will feel differently down the road...

I feel sure you will. In the early days of my Plan D I was such a mess I didn't think I would survive. The only thing I knew for sure was that I would not stay and take the disrespect his double life was heaping upon me.

2 1/2 years after D-Day I am remarried and thrilled I didn't stick around with WxH trying to make it work.

However, he is the seriel kind of cheater. And like Kirby there wasn't enough 'good' in that marriage to make it worth the fight. The keylogger allowed me to see the truth about him...not the full truth of 26 years of marriage I am sure, but enough to know he wasn't the kind of man I wanted to be married to.

I totally believe in recovering marriages when there is true remorse and just compensation. The kids are worth it if nothing else.

Preserving a marriage is the path I have chosen. It would be healthier for me to end my marriage. The red flags were there before I married. I had learned about a five year affair that ended my WW�s first marriage.

There was the company Christmas party (one month after we were engaged) where she left me to get us both a beer and did not return. Instead she sat down at a table that included her ex-lover and I sat and watched the clock tick for twenty five minutes until I walked over to her and asked her to dance only to have her walk away from me and return to the same table talking one on one with her ex-lover. I waited one dance and walked over again to ask her to dance only to have her engage in conversation with her ex-lover half way through the dance about an employee they both knew who needed to be driven home.

There was the very romantic Christmas card I stumbled upon in a file cabinet drawer from her ex-boss, apparently saved as a valuable keep sake (found two weeks after we were married). There were the tears when I asked her to never see him (her ex-boss) again that same day and a month later. This married man�s family portrait (with wife and children) remains in a wallet of photos that she carries in her purse to this day.

There was her ultimatum that she would either divorce me or I send my then 15 year old son (who was admittedly a little challenging and rebellious) away from our home (while her then 6 year old and 11 year old continued to live with us) at the end of our first year of marriage (she was pregnant with our now 12 year old son at the time).

There were the years of begging her to schedule weekend evening time so that we could go out together.

And finally there was the day (April 26, 2009) when I returned home one Sunday afternoon to hear her say �I love you� while ending a phone call using tone and intonation that is not how she says that phrase to family members.

There was the day I put a voice activated recorder in her car (October 2009) only to hear her talk to a friend about the man she worked with that she respected that she went to in order to make herself feel better when school was hard and how he was just someone she needed then.

There was the admission of an emotional affair with a man who she had an internet and telephone based affair with (he died of pneumonia in late 2010).

Today my married life is well� empty. I live in fear and in pain most everyday. My sleep has become so difficult that I have slept through the night for more than six hours once in the past year. I show attention and affection and we have a date night each week and we spend much more time with one another. I her own way she tries.

I long for the intimacy that would allow me to have her honesty but it is not to be. Just as Dr. Harley writes, most affairs are never discovered.
Truthfully, my life is as close to hell as I believe possible. I have known the terror of combat, the death of both my parents 20 days apart, the suffering of my first wife who led an on-going affair with a man I considered a close friend (prior to his involvement with my wife). And nothing comes close to the unrepentant behavior of my wife.

Having seen the damage to the children of my first marriage that divorce brought I cannot yet make myself choose this course for my 12 year old.

But my life has no joy, and the loneliness of living her lie is an on-going torture.

I have worked on my love buster (principally Angry Outbursts) behaviors and have conquered them.

You can�t quite call my circumstance �Recovery� and all I do is continue my MB based marriage counseling. My life is about fear. My life is about pain. I once asked this board if there were any members who �stuck it out� in my kind of situation. Suffice to say there were no respondents to my posting.

Several veteran posters here steered me through the ropes. I owe my life to one of them. If I can do this� any member here who has had a wayward spouse repent should learn something� They have someone who is trying to do the right thing. And you guys and gals who have been betrayed but have a repentant spouse have no idea how much I envy you and how happy for you this poster is.

Is it possible to recover absent full disclosure and honesty? My MB based counselor believes so. But he admits not having any science behind that. It certainly doesn�t feel like it most days.

In my selfish moments I want to know �Where is the pay off for my putting myself through all this fear and pain?� I am trying is all I can say. This is absolutely the hardest time of my life. My divorce (in my first marriage) was so much easier in so many ways.

So an unsolicited opinion� If you have a truly repentant spouse� You have what at least one person would gladly die for. You have a chance to make something good out of that which was bad.

Any day of the week I would trade places with you.

A different side to the question asked but relevant or so I think.

Hurtingturkey
Me: BS 57
WW: 50
Mine: DD30, DS29 and DS wounded Marine 23
Hers: DS23, DS19
Ours DS 12
DD# 1 April 26, 2009
DD# 2 Jan 31, 2010 (our Anniversary)
WW admitted do EA with OM # 1
WW refuses to identify OM # 2

Fear wears you down.