We have been married 15 years. We have 3 kids 13, 11, 4. She told me Sunday she wants a divorce. We are still talking after a couple fights, we are sleeping in separate beds.

For years now I've been striving for bigger better everything in our lives. I forgot to show her love. Now she says she has no love for me and doesn't think she can get it back. In this process she has been talking to another guy and thinks she might have feelings for him.

I have been reading the book "His needs her needs". She is reading it also. I seen our exact situation in the first chapter. She is wanting to move OUT so she can have her space and time to think. She wants nothing to do with me now. I don't know how to get her back if she refuses to accept everything I do. I did buy 24 roses that will be sent to her today, with a nice note. She doesn't want me to touch her. I'm thinking lots of cards little notes.

She is afraid if she gives in it will happen again and she doesn't want to put our household through this again.

How can I get her back before she is gone for good?

Thanks

She wants to leave so she can pursue her affair with this OM. Her goal is to quietly replace you. So the way she does this is to conjure up every grievance going back 20 years to make it appear like it is YOUR FAULT. It is a trick designed to blame you so she can feel justified in having her affair.

Have you been snooping on her? Do you have direct evidence of the affair?

WW don't give the divorce speech unless they have another man lined up to replace you.

Dollars to doughnuts your WW is in a PA with this OM.

WW moves into another bed this way she is being faithful to the OM.

Time to quietly gather evidence then come back here for a plan of action. Don't go off half-cocked. And don't reveal your sources. You do not have to proof the truth WW knows the truth.

Key looge for the PC

Monitor all phone bills for new number or any number that has frequent usage

Hide VAR in WW car and one in the home

Realtime GPS in WW car

If you can get access to WW cell people here know how to install soft ware to get WW texts.

Not your fault.

Many of us on the betrayed side of the fence are too quick to take blame.

Some mutant managed to gain your wife's attention and has began (and I bet its begun some time ago, sorry to say) to meet needs you were admittedly not meeting.

Given enough time a cheater will forget about her husband, 3 innocent children she had with that husband, and will seek to meet up with a homewrecking deviant. Why? According to the extensive research by the founder of this site, all of us are able to engage in extramarital affairs. A simple act of meeting a need of someone of the opposite sex is all is takes.

Chances are when you put the MB program in to place, you both will realize where the difficiencies are AND if its possible to salvage marriage.

But, first you must kill the affair dead. Follow the advice to follow and ask questions.

We are so sorry you are going through this
but
welcome

Have you read this post yet?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659680#Post1659680

Also, if your user name is your actual name.....you ought to change it so that you are not vulnerable to the cyber world.

Hey *edit* have you gotten the I love you but not in love with you speech? How she wants to be your friend and everyone can be best buds when she shacks up with another guy?

She is guilty, frightened and prob not making much sense. That is because affairs are like addictions and change the person's personality. They forget everything they once valued.

Sending roses is good, but futile unless you can kill the affair.

Her reaction to the roses is not likely to be very good while she is still in the midst of this addiction to the excitement of an affair.

You can kill the A with evidence and exposure, while stressing you love her and will fight for her.

It is your best shot.

My friend, you�re in trouble. You�re having the wool get pulled over your eyes.

Agree to nothing. Say that there won�t be any talk of divorce and that you won�t engage in it at all. Let her know that if she wishes to leave she is free to do so but that you and the kids will stay here. Let her know that if she decides to go down that path that you will fight her and will fight for custody.

Shatter her fantasy. Her fantasy is that you and her will have an amicable divorce (no such thing) and that she will go and find happiness with this other man. I hate to tell you this, but this is a full on affair. She�s done more than just talk to this guy.

What you need to do right now is snoop to get the truth. Put a VAR in her car and I�m sure you�ll capture one of her conversations confirming the affair. Put a keylogger on the computer or break into her accounts if you already know the passwords.

Your rights as a father are in jeopardy. Take it from a man who has walked in your shoes and reacted as you�re reacting right now.

The advice I�m giving you is based on experience and based on what I wish I had done in my past. Don�t ignore what we�re telling you since we�ve been in your shoes and have seen this movie a million times.

Snoop. Get the truth.

Once you have the truth you will need to expose the affair. Exposure will need to be done without warning. You tell anyone and everyone who can influence it to end.

This includes your kids. The advice we give is counterintuitive, but it works and it kills affairs. Take it from someone who DIDN�T follow the advice given.

Yes I have gotten the I love but not in love with you talk.

This guy is a friend of both of ours. They did kiss Saturday night but she says she pulled away and told him they can only be friends. She is still talking with him mainly texting. I think she is telling the truth.

All of her family and close friends are telling me what's going on. Her best friend says they talk a lot but positive no sex has happened.

I also got the nice divorce speech and we can all be friends in the end and our kids will switch houses every week with 50% custody.

I just got a call and the flowers couldn't be delivered today.

*edit*, she is lying to you. She wants you out so she can resume her affair with this guy. "I love you but am not in love with you" means she has a new point of comparison and is in love with the OM.

If you want to save your marriage, you have to run the OM off and tell him to hit the road. Go to your wife and DEMAND that she end her affair. Go to the OM and tell him to take a hike.

Tell her you will not cooperate with any separation schemes, will not move out, will not let her take the kids without a court order, and MOST OF ALL, WILL NOT BE HER "FRIEND" WHILE SHE CARRIES ON AN ADULTEROUS AFFAIR WITH HER AFFAIR PARTNER.

Stop contributing to the demise of your marriage and your children's family and start fighting for it. If you don't buck here, you are going to lose everything.....FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Any children that are over age 4 should be told about their mother's affair.

Is this OM married?

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Youare going to learn VERY quickly that what WSs say means nothing. Believe none of what comes out of their mouth. Only believe verfiable actions.

The scenario she is painting will NOT be happening. There is no such thing as co-parenting. So, that reality willl be presented to her in due time.

In the menatime, you need to verify what her status is with this OM. Dont believe her, nor her family, nor her friends. Find out. Some folks above gave you very good info on how to start.

Plan A her. See if she will counsel with the Harley's by phone. Tell her that you do marriage, you dont do divorce and will not participate in it.

When doing Plan A (and you really do need to read up on all of the books and info on this website!), you are trying to meet needs. But you do NOT have to give into her foggy thinking. Thus, you wont be participating in divorce. It is damaging to the kids, and to both of you.

Anyway, please keep posting with info, read up on everything here...and get the goods on her.

Tell her no thanks. You will stay in your home and so will the kids. The kids should not be dragged out of their home to accommodate your wife's sleazy affair. It is your responsibility to protect your children!

*edit*

She may not have had sex with the friend but I think if you asked she will tell you she is emotionally involved with him and probably has been for a while, it is called an affair, EA.
I think you stay on this board, don't tell her about it and start reading everything on the site, in order to recovery your marriage and you can with a good plan....stay and the vets will walk you through it.
Right now you snoop, put a keylogger on your comp, put a spy device on her phone, and make sure that there isn't more going on then you know about, if there is don't confront yet, come back get the next step........
I will tell you this that all waywards lie and cover up the real truth to keep themselves and the affair partner safe from exposure........don't believe a thing for now.......don't tell her that though.....
Be the sweetest man you can be for now, find out what you are dealing with.
Tell her over and over again that you will not discuss divorce only marriage building..........do not agree to separation or do not move out of the house whatever you do, she is looking for time and space to continue her relationship with her OM and that is what he is, I know you don't want to hear it ........we were all in the same boat at one time..........
so for now figure out where and what is happening and don't confront, come back to get more advice on how to move forward to save your marriage and you can if you have a great plan........this is marriage builders

You cannot believe anything your wife tells you. SHE IS A LIAR. AFFAIRS ARE BUILT ON LIES.
The first step is to expose their affair. Is her boyfriend married?
Does he have a girlfriend other than your wife?

DO NOT EXPOSE THE AFFAIR UNTIL YOU HAVE COMPILED A LIST OF HER RELATIVES, WITH THEIR CONTACT INFORMATION, THE BOYFRIENDS RELATIVES AND CONTACT INFO, CLOSE FRIENDS CONTACT INFO, ANY FRIENDS YOU HAVE AS A COUPLE (CHURCH FRIENDS, PASTOR, ETC)...

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THIS INFORMATION COME BACK FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO EXPOSE IT. FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF POSTERS LIKE MEDLODYLANE AND OTHERS. DO NOT EXPOSE ON YOUR OWN; ITS IMPORTANT TO DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME

Ah, the old �we only kissed and I stopped it because it was wrong� speech.

Heard that one before.

The reality is more likely than not �we did it and I felt bad afterwards about it but loved it as well.�

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

Much of what needs to happen right now relies on YOU. That means you need to gather your evidence and expose and you need to shatter any fantasy she has about amicable divorces. MM is right, there is no such thing as co-parenting. There is parallel parenting. That means you watch the kids when they�re with you and vice versa and there is no friendly get togethers like she imagines. She imagines in her head that you will divorce, be friends, get together with your new loves, and all get along splendidly, as in some Hollywood movie.

This is why it is very important that YOU end the fantasy by making it clear that you will not discuss divorce and that if she goes down that path that you won�t accept 50/50. You�ll fight for sole physical and legal custody and you�ll use her affair against her if she pursues a divorce.

Will that happen? No. You won�t get sole custody. You�re lucky, as a man, to get 50/50.

But 90% of dealing with her is mental. It means that you stand your ground. It means you play with confidence and bluff a lot. It means you clarify to her that she will have a big fight on her hands if she goes for a divorce.

This means you make it clear that you won�t make it easy.

But you need to spy and you need to not act afraid. You�ll be afraid, but you can�t show it. Be strong.

Do not believe that she is telling you the truth.
She will lie on her childrens lives right now.

Get over to the spying forum and get ahold of her text messages.

I'm sorry for the pain you have coming...

Yes several people know of evrything going on with us. Her friends, mom, sister know everything and trying to get her to try and make it work.

Im receiving all the info from everything she says to everyone in texts and on phone. Her sister let me know. She says when I'm at work she thinks she wants to make it work but when I get home and start talking to her she gets other thoughts.

We are going to a local marriage counselor on the 8th. I just want a fair chance to win her love back and save us and our kids from this.

She would have already moved out if she could afford it. I went to a friends one night and told her I was coming back. I'm not giving up my house or kids.


If she could afford it she would already have m

Seriously, do you believe that you could flirt with a woman for months, in this secretive, over-sexualized manner, and simply �just kiss� when the opportunity presented itself?

Marriage counseling is a waste of time so long as she's in an active affair.

If this man is your "friend" then you need to let him know that you're coming after him and are going to make his life hell unless he gets the he77 away from your WW.

And your WW will be furious and her anger will come in massive doses in an effort to control you.

Go read GJM's thread.

Save your money on the MC and give the Harleys a call.

*edit*, the way you can tell she is lying is if her mouth is moving. Like it has been said before there is no such thing as a friendly divorce. You need to do some serious snooping and you will find out that this is a physical affair. Sorry to have to tell you that.

Going to a counselor with a wayward wife will be a DISASTER. The counselor will probably try to tell you to give up and go to divorce. And then your wife will have validation for leaving you and will be able to say "even the counselor agreed I should leave him."


Can I ask why you went to a friends house?

*edit*, you are making strategic mistakes that are going to cost you your marriage if you don't start fighting for your marriage.


If she could afford it she would already have m [/quote]

This is what happened to me.

I could easily block his calls to her cell phone, I'm sure I can get on AT&T website and have certain numbers blocked. I know that will just drive her away.

I'm way more firm then I was a few days ago! She knows I won't leave my kids.

Depending on her phone, there are ways to download the entire history of the content of her incoming and outgoing text messages.

Or, put a voice activated recorder in her car. You will likely catch her side of a conversation with OM that will tell you what you are really up against.

Be prepared - because when you verify that she is involved in an ongoing affair, we are going to advise you to expose it to your families, OM's family, your friends.

Keep your cards close to your vest right now. Do not bring her to this site or make her aware of it. Do not let her know your game plan. Do not beg, cry, plead, or be needy right now. Be cool, calm, collected. Think James Bond.

Most counselors do not know how to deal with affairs.
I know from experience,
You need to get a plan and stick to it.
There are several out there.
The Marriage Builders (MB) is a good plan with many good outcomes.

There is a strong possibility you will never be able to win your wife back. But the MB Plan and help YOU be prepared for what SHE does.
But you need to stick with it, not the counselors plan

oh -- sounds like you have that covered. (text messages)

When you say everyone knows whats going on -- do you mean her PG rated version? She's aleady trying to spin the story and sway support to her side?

Who pays the bill? Family funds should not be used to finance HER AFFAIR. If she wants to be selfish and break up the family then she should pay for that with her own money, not family money. I blocked my wifes cell phone from calling OM. If you don't, you are enabling the affair.
What will you do next? allow her to use family money to buy pretty underwear to show off to her boyfriend? DON'T ENABLE, YOU DONT BUY AN ALCOHOLIC ALCOHOL AND YOU DONT ENABLE AN AFFAIR ADDICT.

Will she be mad? YES, SHE WILL BE. SHE WILL SAY YOU ARE CONTROLLING HER, SHE WILL SAY SHE HATES YOU. Same thing an alcoholic says when denied the vehicle keys, or denied money for booze.

*edit*, you have been given so good advise about going to a counselor. I took my wife kicking and screaming to one and he advised my wife to leave. Please save your money at this time.

You are kidding, right? You understand that she is already "driven away?" If she werent' driven away you wouldn't be here talking about divorce. You have already lost her.

Please read this very carefully. You have a chance to save your marriage if you can focus and follow these instructions.

We both have iPhone 3GS I can't search forum much now I'm at work.

I thought counselor was correct thing to do. I wonder how long it takes to get appointment with harleys on phone

Did you read Lexxy's post? It is real important for you to get evidence of their affair. They have a plan in place and you need to get your hands on quietly.

I control everything as far as money. House is in my name only, cell phones my name only, I pay every bill as far as house is concerned and in my name. She pays her car payment and a couple other small bills she created.

I have read every post. I need time away from my workers to do some research. I need to read that link that was recommend on first page.

I always swore I would never put up with an affair, we would be done right then. I'm not sure why I'm fighting so hard now? Maybe to save my kids from this? Maybe I love her more then I thought?

*edit*, there is a very strong chance we can help you save this marriage if you will quietly get the evidence of their affair. They have a PLAN to move you out and replace you. You must get the evidence and then we can help you with next steps.

Start thinking of ways you can get that evidence. WE can suggest spyware for cell phones, GPS, keyloggers, etc. You just tell us how they communicate and we will help you get the goods.

You might want to consider taking family leave, or letting your boss know what is going on in your personal life.
Many betrayed spouses are in shock, and not functioning well.
This can become obsessive. It might be a good idea to take some time off and focus your energy on busting up the affair.

Its real important for you to understand that you can't bust it up without upsetting your wife. Your goal, and her goal are diametrically opposed. You cannot accomplish your goal without making her angry -- so get over the idea that you can "nice" her out of it.

Avoiding her anger is NOT YOUR GOAL.
ENDING THE AFFAIR is your goal.
Ending the Affair will piss her off.
So be ready for that.

She will turn into a spewing, shreiking hysterical monster.
For a little while. Then you may get your wife back.
But not if you let her have her way....

I thought the same thing. My wife has had more than one affair. For me it is about the kids, but also about the love we shared before and potential for a better marriage than ever before.

Her plan is to let everyone know (including you) what a huge disappointment the marriage has been.
She will try to say that she's been trying to get your attention for YEEEEEEAAARRSSSSSS.
She will have lots of reasons.

"You work too much/You don't make enough/You're a bad father/you only pay attention to the kids/there's no passion/she's just a housekeeper/You're controlling/You have anger issues/blah blah blah blah blah...."

She probably started connecting with OM and telling him that your marriage was in shambles, that you don't care about her, that you life like roommates. And now the affair has reached a point where she has to make that all true. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy. She's made these statements to OM, and she is so addicted to him that she has to follow through.

Her plan is to manage you.

She wants to ease you out of the marriage -- trying to get you to agree that neither of you love each other anymore, and you should just be friends and co-parents.

If you blow up this affair, and make it clear that she can't have her fantasy divorce (you all spending christmas mornings together!) -- then your marriage might recover.

As everyone here has said, Do not believe anything she says. She will lie to not just you, but she would lie to her mother, sister, pries, rabie, and most people will believe her, because "that's not like her".

If one thing you learn, a wayward spuce becomes an expert at lying. The friends and relatives that are reporting to you may know more than they are telling you, and may not know anymore than you do, but one thing is for sure, you cannot rely on them for the truth.

I had what I thought was a good friend who knew the entire time my WW's affair was going on with my best friend, I never knew he knew until after the whole truth was revieled. People don't know how to handle that info, or don't want to "destroy" your marriage (they don't realize that truth doesn't destroy a marriage, but infidelity sure can).

Texting is her main form of communicating with everyone. I'm sure she won't move in with him. He lives with his mom and grandma and his nieces and nephews and his daughter on weekends.

*edit* .. welcome to MB. Sorry you are here. pay very close attention to the vets here they WILL NOT steer you wrong! even if what they tell you to do seems counter intuitive DO IT!.

Going to counselling will only serve to enable your wifes affair. MC's do not know how to deal with affairs. Infact MC's have the highest rate of divorce of most occupations.

Heres what will happen if you do go. When you go in, the MC will ask all sorts of questions about your marriage and then it will turn into a rehash of the past for session after session .. and each time you come away from it your wife will feel more and more justified in what she is doing becasue each session will allow her to relive all those moments that she is dwelling on and keep them fresh in her mind (WOMEN ARE GLOBAL THINKERS SO WHATEVER IS BOTHERING HER MOST WILL BE ON THE FORE FRONT OF HER EVERY THOUGHT). You will come away from each session like everything happened yesterday and feeling worse then before you went in. It will begin to feel hopeless.

^---This is from personal experience. Took my wife 4 sessions to realize that MC was NOT helping and costing us 100bux an hour.. your money is better spent on a phone call to the Harleys. One phone call from the harleys does WAY more than weeks and weeks of MC.

Stay strong .. you got the best of the best on your side here.

MNG

*edit*

I can�t emphasize to you how important it is that you don�t let fear guide your actions. What we advise you to do is counter-intuitive since it is meant to put a wrench into the affair and pi$$ off your WW. She will be livid that you�re not playing along.

I can�t emphasize enough to you how important it is that you follow our advice. I am telling you this as a man who didn�t listen, didn�t believe that the strangers on the internet knew MY wife. We don�t know your wife, but we do know you WW. They�re all pretty much the same but they just vary in intensity. There are those that are completely off the rocker crazy and then there are those that are just plain crazy, but they�re all crazy. They�re not thinking about their children and the bomb they�re dropping on their kids. They can�t see the pain they�re causing you.

FWW�es on this board can tell you how correct I am in these statements.

I say this to you because I�ve been on this board long enough to know when I�m dealing with a very timid and afraid BH. You strike me as that type right now, but I hope you prove me wrong.

Spy. Get the intel.

The best advice on this issue when I was in your shoes came from my brother. He told me to become ice cold and not let my WXW be able to read me. He told me to keep her guessing and to be calm and calculating.

Again, I didn�t listen.

Please follow the advice you�re being given.

No, she's not. Women don't leave their marriage because they 'kissed Saturday night' and then she 'pulled away.' Don't buy that.

Her best friend is lying to you as well.

Quoted for TRUTH!

As a WW myself, I can tell you that your wife is having an affair with this supposed "friend" of yours. What kind of friend kisses someone else's wife? He's a pig.

Your wife is lying to you. Doesn't matter if it's a PA or EA...they are as equally damaging.

I have a friend (well, she's not really my friend anymore because she enabled my affair) who left her husband and kids and got Affairaged. About 4 years into her Affairage, she had an EA with an old boyfriend. She admitted if she could go back, she would not have married her AP. It's a nasty cycle.

You have to put the fear of God into your wife about what she's about to lose. Listen and follow the advice of the vets on here. She is talking foggy.

Good Luck!
CT

Yeah....until your wife gets her own little nest.

Women do not move out of their family home to be alone.

If she did not fully intend on setting up a new love-nest, she would be kicking YOU out of the house...and she would remain home with her children.

The fact that she wants you to stay home with the kids with her leaving means that she has this off-kilter sense of justice/balance. She wants her kids home to remain stable.
She thinks she can just pull herself out of the equation and everything will be fine for them. She thinks she will still come by and participate in the family -- but also have her seperate life with OM.

Yeah, you could do that. But then she would buy a reloadable affair phone and you'd lose that information. Don't do this right now.

ALSO: Do NOT tell your wife about this site. Say NOTHING about Marriage Builders. We get a lot of betrayed spouses on here who get the idea that they can show this site to their wayward and educate them about what they're doing. That DOESN'T WORK. You can't educate an active wayward. We have a lot of tools and information on this site for blowing up affairs. If your WW sees those she'll know what you may be doing to kill this affair.

I would also suggest you change your posting name if it is similar at all to your real name. Please don't give us personal info that will identify you. If *edit* is your real name, anyone who knows you can google your name and this thread could come up. You don't want that.

Name is changed! I don't think her friend is lying to me. Me and her are good friends also and she approached me. She lost her marriage to a cheating husband and hates it. If my wife leaves she will loose her and many others as friends. Her and my best friend both told her how stupid she's acting and needs to put her head on straight. She did not take that news well.

My wife knows about this site. My sister sent both of us an email with the link to it. I doubt she will visit though.

I guess if she decides to move out. She can pay her own vehicle insurance and do her at home day are job at that house also. I will change locks at that time also, don't need her coming in when I'm not home. Where can I buy a recorder? I've got one he'll of a temper. I can be as mean as need be.

I guess I need to get searching and see if I can set up a phone call with the harleys

OK SM (didnt want to call you stupid lol), you may THINK she is not but it would be best to VERIFY for yourself! Make sure also during this time you practice your own EP's (extraordinary precautions) to prevent you from doing a RA (revenge affair).

MNG

Edit to add tha you can get a VAR (voice activated recorder from radio shack .. or future shop .. best buy, etc. Pretty much any major electronics store.

If this is true then you need to get your friends to ramp up the pressure and let your wife know flat out that she will lose their friendship forever if she continues on this path

Radio Shack

You can stop this from ever happening if you do what you've been told here. As someone above mentioned, you've got the best MB warriors in your corner. Listen, and do what they say, and she won't be going anywhere.

Also (not sure if you should or not though) possibly stop paying her phone bill and slap a keylogger on your home PC. This may force her to continue her contact with OM where you can catch it. Then keep and store what you find in a safe place thats not on the PC. In fact .. putting a keylogger on the home PC is probably a great idea anyhow .. she will get sloppy and you will get teh goods.

Be james bond ... Calm .. cool .. and collective.

MNG

And go to the OMs Facebook page and copy and paste all his contacts into a word doc for safekeeping.

She is rarely on computer, phone all the time. I will look up keylogger and see about that but I'm not good with computers.

I want to see those texts! Her main thing is to drive around town and talk on phone. VAR should catch about everything.

I will call Harleys in a few minutes and get a phone appointment.

If you can get her phone when she is sleeping and put some spyware on it to send you copies of the texts to a secret email you would have her texts! Alot of keylogger sites have the option for phone spyware too .. check out the spying section of the forum for some ideas.

MNG

He said they have iPhone 3G. It will be very hard to install spyware in an iPhone. The best he will get is a GPS tracker for it unless it's jailbroken.

AHh .. i didnt know that .. i figured it was fairly simple to put spyware on all the new style phones as the old style phones dont have the capacity or the know how to understand such programs ..

good to know! thx!

The good thing is he can pull texts from an iPhone once she backs it up on the computer. There is software you can download to open the back up files.

How about a sim card reader?

The iPhone Recovery Stick takes the form of a USB data stick: users first connect the target iPhone via USB, then pop the iPhone Recovery Stick into another available USB port. The included software then proceeds to scan the iPhone for recoverable data; depending on the state of the iPhone, the process can take anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours. However, the type of information that can be recovered is extensive, including call histories, Web browsing history, photos, voice memos, map history, dynamic text data (what the iPhone �learns� to assist with predictive text input), contacts, calendar and appointment information, and (of course) SMS messages.

iPhone's don't use the sim card to store information because the sim cards don't have the capacity for it.

I would also pick up a zoombak GPS from Radio Shack so you can track her whereabouts.

I would quietly gather all your evidence before you confront her. Come here once you have evidence of their PLAN.

SM, please follow the advice of the posters on here. My WW came home almost one month ago and told me that she wanted a divorce. She told me of the affair and that she wasn't in love with me anymore. The first thing I did, while she was standing there looking at me, was to call her family and tell them about it. She was pissed. Then I left the house for a bit and told her friends. Her friends wouldn't talk to her anymore unless she committed to work on the relationship. I then proceeded to tell everyone that would listen about the affair. She changed her tune very quickly. We have been working on things, going to a good MC who follows most of the practices to a T that are listed on this website. There is hope. Get the full details and tell everyone who will listen, and DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME AND KIDS!!!

Find My iPhone app is free.

You can track via GPS all the iphones on your account.

Location services must be turned on though.

I think your wife is lieing her hiney off ... Shes gradually softening you up with her "explanations" ... "feelings for him" ...then its "a single kiss".


Please forgive me, some might think I'm being extreme for what I say next ...


I'm going to grab you by the collar and scream in your face

*********"WAKE UP MAN"**********

This guy is no longer a friend of yours ... Hes out to replace YOU, HE IS YOUR ENEMY. Both him and your wife, are going to rip your family apart and turn your kids lives upside down.

Your children are depending on you to man up, stand up and protect THEIR interests!!

Your going to find out very quickly that all these verbal promises she made to get you to go along with her .... are going to bite you in the a$$...

HelptheLostDads make that VERY SAME MISTAKE, he went along to get along, and found himself almost homeless (correct me if im wrong on that count) and DEEPLY in debt.

Her best friend, did your wife confide in her about the affair? When did her best friend know about the affair?

She has to be lying. It wasnt love at first sight. She wasnt shot with cupids bow. She has spent dedicated time and effort builing these feelings and allowing their growth.

Each time after a talking, sharing session did she come home and spill her guts about the changes happening to her feelings? To give SM fair warning about what was happening before she got too deep in?

No, she lied because it left her free to carry on.

She told herself it would 'hurt him' and made excuses as to why it was ok to lie.

Then once she had made that step into becoming a 'warm hearted liar', there would have been nothing stopping it from going PA.

She didnt have to tell, after all. Cause it would hurt SM if she did. So she could just do it and forget about the consequences.

I dont want to hurt you, SM, just prepare you but when a WW has 'just' an EA, or a kiss she calls it a friendship/ or says 'nothing happened'

When its a PA she says it was an EA/just a kiss/we only did it once, yada yada yada. Makes no sense but they all do it.

Read the never take he word of a wayward thread - Dont take her word about anything

That includes 'I dont love you' or 'you dont love me' etc - all nonsense.

Or she is lying to her best friend. When I was in the heat of my fog, I did not tell a soul what I was doing. Not even my own sister, in which I tell everything to. When my H found out, he told EVERYONE we knew on both sides. I was so angry with him but it sure did bring me out of my fog pretty quick. Especially when my sister (my best friend) called me and said she was disgusted with me and didn't know who I was.

***EDIT*** why do you think your WW wants you out of the house?

OM can't stand living the way he does.

Your WW is providing him a free place to jump to once he leaves grandmas house.

Also if you think WW is not doing the OM because she said so (I have a bridge forsale. It's located in Brooklyn, NY.) and her family and friends said so.

News Flash News Flash News Flash News Flash News Flash News Flash

The info they have is what WW is feeding them. WW has no problem lying to you or them.

I have been reading for two years even before I began to post. During all this time I have seen more WW's then I can remember that swore on whatever that she was not physical with OM.

Only to see the WW story change to we justed kissed once.
To we necked once.
To oral.
To.... only once....to many times....well I think you can finish this story.

This is very true. Anyone who freeloads off grandma and daughter has no problem using a married woman for FS. Or those letters reversed.

Since he is so dependent on his family, exposing to the family will make your W not worth what he will lose and he will dump her.

Get that evidence and expose.

But come here for your exposure plan first.

I'd place bets on this happening. And to add, exposing to them will also show them exactly just what kind of relationship this really is...and they will NOT like it or condone it. Bet on it

easy. like MrNiceGuy says: calm cool and collected.
Today's radio show has a wayward husband who admits he hardly recognizes who he was during the affair. Your wife is in there somewhere. It's your job to coax her out and anger/meanness won't be the landing pad she's looking for. Be the man she wants to come to when she realizes OM is a slimy scumbag.
opt

To his wife? Absolutely!

To the OM? Absolutely!

I came home from work tonight. Friend of ours came over that is newly divorced and talked with us. He said it was exactly like his. We talked to him and listened. During that conversation I realized SCREW this. I'm not begging/forcing her to goto counseling. After the conversation I left and drove around for a bit, came home and told her I'm DONE.

I did call the correct aunt of hers while I was gone. She was not happy when I got home. She had already received a nice phone call. LMAO

I'm guilty of trying to buy her love with gifts instead of affection. I know I messed up. I have admitted it to her several times. I'm not going to spy or anything else. She is leaving a great provider and dad. She will suffer more then me in the long run. She is going to lose most of her friends.

I told her to take some money out of checking and get her own place ASAP.

At that point she said well should I stay and be unhappy and maybe I might get feelings for you again. I told her no! Trust me it was painful to do but felt good. She was crying when I got out of the shower.



I told her to take money from my checking account and get her own place soon

I hope you don't regret what you have said to your wife. It's ultimately your decision, but you did some major love busting and I hope you don't wake up realizing you made a mistake. You have 3 children that deserve both parents under one roof. You both deserve a loving fulfilling marriage and it will take work. You're tied together for life through your children and eventually their children. I hope you have already thought of these things. I know some times it may not seem worth it, but in 10 years you can look back and see that this is just a short time in your lives that can be over come. And if you do make it, you'll be glad you stuck it out. Good luck.

Dude I know its hard to keep your cool. I've bveen there.
But you should seriously consider that ypour words will just reinforce your wifes decision to leave.
If there is any part of you that wants to save your family, you need to follow the MB plan

After sleeping a few hours, I still feel better. I made the right choice. I've been doing anything I can for a week to stop this. I could tell when I told her she need to leave it was a shocker. She didn't think I would do it! I'm betting she wants to try counseling by the end of the weekend. If not I'm done anyway.

I was the coolest I've been in a week and it felt good. I've got to concentrate more on my kids then her.

SM, you have every right to make this call. However, I wouldn't make it and then let her drive the bus. If you want her out, tell her you want her out by the 15th. Or whatever day YOU pick. Don't let her choose when she goes, or she won't. She'll waffle and try to stay in the house.

Remove money from all marital financial accounts that she can access. Marital funds should not be used to fund the affair, including the renting of an affair nest.

Remove her from any of your credit cards that she is authorized to use. Look at your finances and figure out if there is a way she can negatively affect you financially, and plug that hole. Waywards have been known to financially destroy their spouse during an affair.

File for divorce.

If you tell her she needs to go, with some vague date, like "You need to leave real soon" you're leaving the door open for her to figure out how to stay and continue cake-eating.

WE understand that you want to be DONE. WE understand the pain.

If you decide to try to do things the MB way, things like this will be hard to erase from her mind, and will make it harder for you.

Your choice. WE will be here to help you through the MB plans if you decide to go that route.

If you said these things just to gain control and manipulate her into doing things YOUR way, it was for the wrong reasons.

It is often advisable for BSs not to make any life altering decisions for at least 6 months after DDay so they don't do something they will later regret.

Have you read other people's threads? I would suggest you read GJM's thread.

I have read a few other threads. It amazes me how so many are almost exactly the same. Yes all of this hurts very much.

**edit**

"counseling" will be a complete waste of time if she is in an affair. You would be better off getting the divorce than wasting your time in "counseling."

You are perfectly within your rights to decide to end your marriage, just know that this probably could have been saved. Her moving out will only give her the freedom to pursue the affair and will make recovery of your marriage harder.

Are you going to be financing her affair lair?

[quote=StupidMe]I came home from work tonight. Friend of ours came over that is newly divorced and talked with us. He said it was exactly like his. We talked to him and listened. During that conversation I realized SCREW this.quote]

Can I ask why you would take advice from someone who doesn't have any idea how to save a marriage? What did he have to say that could possibly help you?

She wanted me to hear him. That was my exact thoughts, he is the last person to listen to. He didn't say anything to help or anything bad. He told us to put kids first mainly.

I told her to take some money and get her own place. She will pay all of her bills after that. Once she is gone she will get nothing from me except child support.

If R is a relationship that is the last thing I want. I have to focus on my kids and get them through this, with as little suffering as possible. My boys are my buddies and I can't let them down. My daughter and I have grown much closer over the past fee weeks. The plus side to all of this is I think I will have a much better relationship with my kids.

What did this "friend" say that made you blow your top?

You seem to have a hard time conrolling your top and blowing it off all the time.

Many a BS are told this is not the time to make important life altering decisions because ones mind post dday is all over the place an rational thinking does not flurish during this time.

So you let someone that has gone through an affair without having the knowledge of MB or equivalent competent knowledge get you worked up and make a decision when full of rage.

Looking back how rational were you that night?

Keep in mind why did you come here.

I think you were looking for a way to save your marriage and family.

You only need a lawyer to do divorce. You don't need MB for that.

I think your gut/first instinct that brought you here was to save your marriage and family. It's said around here that gut freelings are right. Trust your gut and MB for a while longer.

I think it's adviseable to not make any life changing decisions for the first 6 months or so to give yourself time to put the emotional thinking in perspective for you and your family and children........
I think you quietly tell her that if she is interested in rebuilding the relationship in the MB way you would be willing to listen if not then she should move on.......
You concentrate on you and your kids and let her deal with her own demons, it is time for her to grow up and figure out who she wants to be..........
Right now it's time for you to be still..........let yourself feel the loss and figure out what life and who you want to be.........
You don't have to decide today or tomorrow.............

SM,

I advise you to think about the kids first. I tell you this as a child of divorce. We want our parents to work it out. Years later, even as an adult, I wish my parents had been able to work it out.

What you did accomplish here is that you showed her you had a set and are willing to throw her out. Notice how she wavered and started doubting what she was doing.

I say that you approach this different the next time she asks you to go to counseling and if she should stay. If she does so, you say, "I will not do a single thing until you end this affair, write a no contact letter, committ to MB, and open yourself in every single way. Otherwise, get some funds and get your own place. I'm willing to put in the work, but I'm not going to sit by while you screw someone else."

And don't for one second think they haven't screwed. It's happened.

She just text me and said I can't take all your money and I won't.

She is having ACL surgery next Friday. Surgery is in a town 2 hours away. She asked if I was still taking her or if she needed to find someone else. I told her she needed to find someone. That was very difficult.

I keep seeing replies about me getting a place. It's my house in my name only. She can't afford the house. She has the problem she's leaving not me.

Right?

Put the kids first?


Like this;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_care.html

I don't see you focusing on your kids at all. Is it in your kids best interest for you to take family money to finance her affair lair so she can screw the OM? How does that help your kids? Do you plan on allowing her to take your kids from their home in order to facilitate her affair?

If you want to help your kids then you will kill this affair and save your marriage. Your plan is the facilitation plan, it will get you nowhere.

All you are doing is handing your wife and children over to the OM. You have surrendered your family to a scumbag without firing one single SHOT. Are you French?

Don't let her take any money. Why meet her need for financial support? Be careful she doesn't steal all your money and run up your credit cards.

P.s. your sons and daughter will resent the hell out of you for surrendering their family to the OM. Kids expect their father to protect them and fight for them, not hand them over to an interloper without a fight.

Quoted for TRUTH!

SM .. I am sure your kids think you are fighting for your marriage... to disappoint them as such and not take away your wifes crack pipe (OM) would do more harm than good IMHO. By allowing your wife to take your kids and run away to OM your kids will feel you abandoned them.

Sure you will be a weekend dad .. but you will not have the relationship you have with them now. You claim your getting closer, but that will fade as you will have FAR less time to make love bank deposits to them) but how can you get closer if you do not live with them any longer? You cant see this part yet becasue you still live with them. I would think at the very least (if your serious about kicking your wife out) that only SHE goes and you KEEP YOUR KIDS with you and protect them from the POSOM!.

Of course this is all up to you .. but logic tells me that if i was doing what was best for my kids I would be making an effort to restore love in my marriage because thats what I wanted as a child that suffered through a bad divorce from my parents. I wish my parents found MB when they had their hard times and threw in the towel ... to this day my entire family is a wreck and i vowed to MY kids and myself I would rebuild our family starting with my current household.

I pray for peace for you and your kids ...

MNG

You are having a tantrum in response to other people's (wife's, divorced friend's) actions and statements.

You don't make good choices in the reaction mode. You make good choices in the clearly defined plan mode.

You know what?

You can still divorce her as you follow the MB plans.

Secure family finances.
Protect your children from being alienated from you and or confusion about what is happening in their family.
Do zero love busting as you walk to file for a divorce
At the same time, don't enable your wife to use you to enable her affair (financially, by having tantrums, by saying things without great thought)

This way, you do not shoot YOURSELF in the foot.

You can not educate your wife to stop her ways but you can model decent behavior based on thoughtful planning and not reacting to exterior stimuli.

The bottom line is there is no short cut to making your family okay. It is going to be a long haul whether you kick her to the curb yesterday or ten years from now. The family, you, ww, kids, are going to be on a nauseating roller coaster ride. There is no avoiding doing it. The ticket was already purchased, you all were belted in your seats and the motion started.

Before you file for a divorce I would suggest you go talk to an attorney. Judges are very reluctant to award custody to the man even if the woman has committed adultery. You very well could end up paying for her a place to live and child support.

The kids are staying with me! She can see them whenever she is a good mom. She knows i will make her life hell if the kids are around him. We discussed that.

Our finances are mostly separated. She has her credit card I have mine. I will get new checking account with my name only in a few days. I think it's all set up where she can't ruin me or my credit.

I was doing some figuring, no way can she make it on her own and keep her vehicle. I might have more money by not paying all her stuff

I think you're on a very efficient fast-track to divorce. And like I said earlier, that's entirely your call. Not everyone chooses to recover their M.

But I DO want to make sure you understand that the best outcome for your kids is to have a mother and father under one roof in a loving marriage. You can get that with Marriage Builders. Not so much with divorce. Just something for you to think about.

And, though you two discussed how a split would go, she may change her mind and go after more.
She is reacting right now herself and a flip of the switch could change into a less agreeable person.

How are you going to keep the OM away from your kids if he becomes their new stepdad?

How much more financially is a divorce going to cost than keeping the marriage?

You can still divorce after working the MB plans, but you will have more options as to how it goes if you kill the A first.

An actively wayward wife will turn nasty in a divorce. Guaranteed.

I'm sure at some point we've all said eff this, why should I have to put up with this mess. In my posts, I've done that a couple of times. The anger subsides and you realize that the important things matter more than what you are feeling at this very moment. You look at the kids and start to wonder if you're doing what's in their best interest. You imagine a life without the woman you married. Everything comes into perspective once you can think rationally. Right now, I'd say your anger has taken over. Your taker is winning the battle inside of your self and your pride has gotten in the way.

You have a chance to make your marriage better than ever. You can't undo what has been done, but you can prevent things from happening in the future. It's not just about you. It's about your children, you and your wife. Who cares what anyone else thinks? This is your life. Take the steering wheel before your wife does.

You will have no power to keep OM away from the kids once you D. Any attempt to do so will likely land you in jail or with a restraining order.

My advice to you is to get everything in writing up front from her in a legal document.

But you're a man. If you go to court you'll have the deck stacked against you. It's still winnable, but won't be easy.

If she's willing to cutoff contact and work with you, then you owe it to your kids to try. They'll be grateful to you for it.

She is NOT willing to work with me at all! She does NOT want counseling. She does NOT want to try again. She wants to leave! I can't stop her from leaving.

My best hope at this point is she realizes how good she had it with me. She is going to be so broke and without a vehicle soon. She has a richy kind of life now. That will all end next week.

SM.

I get where you are coming from entirely. I have a very unrepentent spouse. He wasnt interested AT all.

Do I regret working the plans?

NO WAY!

I can tell you right now, that you havent even started on the rollercoaster ride of betrayal yet.

The days will come when you miss her/question yourself/rue the fact that your family is in pieces instead of under the same roof as they should be.

All these things are bearable if you know you have done ALL you could to stop them. Having no regrets (I dont have one) is priceless.

I'm not saying dont divorce her, Im just saying the 'nice divorce' will not happen and your kids future stepdad WILL be a loser unless he is run off.

The OM is financially dependent on others. He could be massively easy to run off.

Why not try to cause a little tension in the A by romancing your wife in a Plan A fashion. Also destroy the fantasy affair land by exposing the A, and exposing the APs to the disgust of all they love. Hopefully OM will dump your wife to save his own neck.

Its worth a shot isnt it?

To get rid of freeloader stepdaddy? You can divorce her after if you want.

At the very least, do htld's advice on getting an agreement from her in writing becuse he has his eyes on your lifestyle as well as your wife.

I'd be having face to face man to man chat with this coward very soon. Ans make sure you tell his Mommy too

You can't stop her from leaving, but she is less likely to leave if you kill the affair. And how do you kill her affair? You expose it wide and far. So far she has been allowed to spin the truth, such as: "hubby and I have fallen out of love and have decided to get a divorce. OM is just my "friend." Putting it that way makes it easy for her to get away with sticking it to you with no pressure.

But it would be very different if you called and emailed everybody and told them the truth: "Sally is having an affair with Joe scumbag and wants a separation to pursue er affair. Please use your influence to persuade her to end her affair. "

Hearing it that way will make a huge difference. And all of the OMs family should be informed of the affair.

Affars thrive on secrecy so if you want to save your marriage, you have to expose it.

Be cause of her AFFAIR. Kill the affair and her feelings will change. She is high on the addiction of an affair. Exposing it wide and far is like bringing in a crowd of people to the crackheads get high. It ruins their high! Take their crack pipe away and then they DO want to work on recovery.

Take her crack pipe away so she will sober up enough to want to do the work to fix your marriage.

Do you understand now?

We live in a town of 2,000 people. This started Sunday and probably half the town already knows. She has lost several friends already. Her entire family is pissed and have told her about it.

His family is trash. Heck his dad is in the pen for child pornography. His vehicle has had expired tags since June. He makes about 1/4 of what I make. He pays child support and lives with his mom and grandma. Also a neice and nephew of his sister that moved away.

Your wife is being allowed to spin the story in a way that makes her departure look justified. She is telling people about her "bad marrage" when the truth is that she is leaving to have an affair. People would be much more inclined to help you if you would contact them personally with the true story. Half the town only knows rumors and lies. Her family and your children only know the spin she has told.

Exposure does not mean half truths, lies and spin.

Go read the thread in my signature about how to do a strategic exposure that will have a greater effect on the affair.

You need to expose this affair. Have you not done so yet? To EVERYONE?

SM, went back through your whole thread. Just how many of these things that have been suggested to you have you actually done??


Seriously....how much??

GO NUCLEAR. Honestly, what do you possibly have to lose??

And what do you possibly have to gain?

All you seem to have done is listened to what the drunk wayward wants.

Drunk wayward says - I dont love you, I love OM
You say - I believe you! It must be hopeless!

Drunk wayward says - let me have my addiction and I will be nice as pie in the divorce
You say - Well so long as it is hopeless, and you promise to be nice in the divorce.....I believe you

Please be aware that the former honest character of your wife has been killed by the A. I t could return, but you cannot trust ANYTHING she says.

Read the Never Take The Word of A Wayward thread.

Saying
I hate you
Dont love you
Marriage was miserable

Is just straight out of the wayward 'leave me alone to cheat' handbook. It means nothing.

Read the thread title here. What were YOU asking for? Help. People are offering you help, and you're arguing with them. You wanted HELP, and now you're getting it. Do what these posters are suggesting, answer any questions, and you will receive what you asked for.

MOST waywards don't want to do anything about saving their marriages, but BSs who work the plans can have waywards who come around. Even if you don't, you will feel much much much better by executing these plans. That's what these plans do for the BS.

Operation let everyone know is perfect. She said i have ruined her in this town and she will never have friends again. She sat here and cried she has no one now.

She wants me to pay for her knee surgery, cell phone, H2 Hummer insurance, while she moves out. I wont do it. She told me she can't do it without me.

All this time all of you said I was being to nice!

When she asks you for money to pay for things, you can say things like, "The money brought into this household is used for the betterment of every member who lives here, would you like some tea?" Just try to stay away from saying things like "MY money." Waywards really grab onto that.

Listen, if your wife's boyfriend's father is in prison for chil pornography then you need to print this information out and use it in your Exposure. You need to let people know, "My wife is having an affair with OM and I am very concerned because his father is in prison for child pornaography and I dont want my children exposed to them. If you have any influence with WIFE, please persuade her to end this affair."

You need to protect your children from your wifes boyfriend, he was probably molested as a child and would be at high risk for becoming a child molester himself.

Oh, and your lovely wife that is crying today, will be fully willing to take everything that the family has in Divorce.
Trust me, she may be emotionally sad and crying now, but people are fight or flight and corner a woman into a room and watch her nails come out and try to claw you to death.

If you get to that point, it's a lot harder to save a marriage than it is now.

If you only want a quick divorce, you should just quit posting here and get a Divorce Attorney.

If there is any part of you willing to save your marriage, then you need to get off your [censored] and get with the program. Anyone can yell at their wife and throw throw their crap on the lawn, the MB program is a lot harder but I can tell you from experience...I am glad that I started following it; everyone here has been in your situation and benefitted from MB

Uh, me thinks she kinda brought this on herself?? That's just me spit-balling though. I could be wrong.

Upon further review...nope, not wrong!



Now finish the job and confront Mommy's boy and get his sorry butt out of your life. Bring Hell to his doorstep. This wuss will fold like a Dollar Store lawn chair.

Mr. Myagi say; "There hope for you SM-son"

Oh, and Plan A your [censored] off!

Trust me I have a plan! See this is small town America. My dad has always been great friends with the county attorney. My sister married his son. All of us go hunting together and hang out. He is known as one of the harshest lawyers in this area. I can take care of this situation if it gets that far. I will push that issue to the max!

I've called him a few times. Can you imagine he won't answer. I can't talk to him in person. Growing up I got in a few fights (50-100) my temper will get to me and I can't do that. I will take it to far. I'm no good to my kids in jail.

A self aware man. Okay, I like that. How about taking a friend with you to keep you in check?

On second thought, I might give it a day to see what happens from the fallout of your exposure. This wuss may run for the hills on his on after he sees what you've done to call his sorry [censored] to the carpet. Remember, he's nothing but a coward looking for a cheap thrill, but at your expense. Put the fear of SM in him.

I hope she likes living with all his family. Her name is ruined? she ruined it, not you. All you did was shine a light on what she was doing. Stay strong.

What about OMs family? Can they be leaned on?

They must be told

Get hold of OM or just have your wife write him an NC letter.

Plan A your socks off. What is your wife's top need?

Read Art of War in my sig - you need to tempt her out of the A into her dream marriage and threaten consequences if she does not commit.

SM,
Is this what your wanting, a divorce? You are taking only bits of what people are suggesting and going on a rampage with only the thing that can destroy your marriage. If you want to save your marriage, there is more to this than just exposure and ending the affair! You are clearly angry right now, but going on a rampage with little or no information on or evidence of the affair, and not following some of the good advice given here you can easily ruin your chances of saving your marriage.

You have passed up a good opportunity to get information while your WW and her OM were in their fog and unaware you might snoop, they sure know now! Now they are on the defensive and it will be much more difficult for you to figure out just what happened to your marriage. In recovering your marriage from an affair you will find that lack of info can be a difficult thing to get past (you must know the truth to move on). Now you will have to rely on your WW's half truths and trickle truths, and trust me it will be hard to know if she will ever tell you the truth.

I suggest you take a step back, take a deep breath and decide what you want to do from here. You're on the wrong board if you just want a divorce, this forum is for saving marriages. Think long and hard about it, before you destroy your chances to recover your marriage.

Well after a long weekend of thinking and not arguing with her, I'm not sure what I want. I don't know why I'm so upset she wants to move. Was it because of the kids hurting? Was it because I lover her? Am I just scared of change?

Our marriage hasn't been all roses and I know none are. I guess I need to do lots more thinking and see what I really want in life.

You need to think how you can best honor your vows/integrity/family.

You're not some 20-year-old searching for self.

They don't give a CRAP about your search for "what I really want in life".

Sorry, I am too hard on you.

Of course you dont. No BS knows at this stage! You havent even looked at the possibility yet and that will take months..

Deciding what is wrong, today, without trying to salvage the M is like looking at a shut car hood and trying to figure out what is wrong with the engine underneath.



Do this. Kill the A if only to get rid of loser stepdaddy. Plan A your wife - simply to keep your options open.

In a few months time, you will be able to decide based on the situation you have been able to create.

She has moved out, I couldn't stop that!

I believe I have killed the affair. Everyone in town knows everything. She stopped going out in public because she is embarresed to be seen. She is blaming it all on me for causing this. I told her she started it and I had to finish it. We are actually getting along decent now. I think some counseling will start in a couple weeks.

I'm still having my thoughts on everything now. I need more thinking time to decide all of that.

What's next?

If you are going to do ANY counceling, please consider using the Harley's. Anything else is a waste of time. At the very least make sure your counselor uses or has been trained by Marriage Builders...

You shouldn't make any big decisions while you are in crisis mode. Let things calm down a bit.

And as far as your wife's blaming you -- you know YOU didn't cause it right? It was her own actions. They could just as easily been caught by anyone...

Well done! What was the reaction of OM family? - they were key targets in this situation.

If she has moved out it is to create privacy for her affair, which she feels must be more secret now.

If she is still blaming you she is not repentent and still cannot be trusted. Waywards do this to ease their guilt. Which means she still has something to be guilty about. The A is ongoing.

Counselling is a TERRIBLE idea. Most counsellors (unless they use MB) have no idea how to save a marriage and just hand tissues out and let you vent. This provides the ideal opportunity for WW to bad mouth you while you pay for the privilege.

Then when all is done she tells everyone 'I tried, I went to counselling. I had to because he is a jealous psycho!' Thus giving her a respectable explanation for the end of the M.

Plan A her instead to put pressure on the A. Have you read the carrot and stick of Plan A?

Insist that she meet MB conditions, such as an NC letter to OM, to prove herself to you. I will post the conditions you need to put to her.

Have you gone to see a lawyer about protecting yourself financially? Active waywards are not to be trusted with your money. Or your sexual health either btw, use a condom if you get physical.

Rather than counselling (which all too often assumes you have done something wrong - or that she has deep rooted 'problems') simply insist she STOP her behaviour.

Write out these conditions and tell her this is what she needs to do to earn your forgiveness:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage."

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.

Be extremely firm and tell her you just want to give her the chance to earn forgiveness.

My thoughts right now, is to be nice. I don't need her moving back to her home town with my kids. Make sure my kids are taken care of. Make sure she is broke all the time so she has to struggle. She knows or at least thinks I can't afford much to help with kids, since I will be paying everything in my house. Take great care of my kids during this situation.

After a cooling off period. Have at least 1 phone session with the Harleys. After that do it on our own by having dates and talking a lot.

As for the affair it can't be kept a secret if it's still going on, I don't think it is. This town has 2,000 people and she moved on a busy street. Everyone will know very quickly.

We have been together since she was 17. Her mom beat the crap out of her and she moved in with me. She has never been on her own. She is so confused right now, I don't think she knows who she is. She needs a little time to figure that out.

indie sez....


Then SM sez


You keep thinking like this and you're gonna start earning your screen name.

Good post indiegirl. You have remarkable language skills for a foreigner.

Work that list but add that you have a great counseling center run by Dr. Harley. His son and daughter work in their farthers practice. So lets make the phone call to set up an appointment.

I'm not feeling sorry for her! She needs to learn about paying bills. Buying gas, worrying about a flat tire, any and every little thing I can think of. She needs to see she can't have everything she wants now. Oh yeah how about a pair of Walmart jeans instead of brass buckle.


Best news ever tonight my 13 year old is staying with me he's not willing to move out. I new all those years of fishing, atving, boating would pay off. Now don't get pissy. We have told our kids from the beginning none of this is their fault and they had nothing to do with it. We have also said they can stay wherever they want, whenever they want no matter who's week it is.

I've thought everything out. I want to save my marriage! The kids hate him and refuse to be around him. She has lost all most everyone including family. She has told me and my daughter she wishes none of this had ever happened. We are getting along pretty well. The kids have good and bad days the same as I do.

What do I do now? I'm lost for a direction to go at this point.

SM, I would stay in plan A as long as you can stand it and continue to present yourself in the most attractive light. I wouldn't ALLOW your children to be exposed to the OM, though. He is an unfit adult that is not safe for kids.

I take it you have exposed the affair to the OM's family?

Yes everyone knows about affair! My 13 year old told her he hates her for everything she has done and refuses to be around her. My daughter is having the worst time of my kids.

Is there a step by step instruction for Plan A? I have searched and can't find it. Can someone please give me a link.

I think she would go out with me for dinner and movie, do I do that yet?

SM, when you say everyone knows, does that mean that OM's parents have spoken to you personally to get the full and truthful story? Have you appealed to them for intervention?

Are you protecting your daughter from her affair? Keeping her away from the OM?

Here is an outline of Plan A: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1518204

Yes I talked with his mom, she's an idiot and no help to speak of. My kids refusing to be around him. They don't ever want to see or talk to him again.

Have you let your wife know that you won't ALLOW them to be exposed to her affair? It's important that everyone here understands that her affair is inappropriate and that you will not ALLOW your children to be around him.

Don't you also have a 4 year old? Has the 4 year old been exposed to the OM?

She knows I don't want him around my kids! It is getting harder for her to see him. Everyone in town is watching and telling me everything. Yes my 4 year old has been exposed to him. My 11 year old liked him at first but hates him now and said she doesn't ever want him around her again.

SM, I would make her get a court order to force your kids to be dragged into her affair. Those kids should never be allowed to be around him. He is an unfit adult and being around him only role models adultery. Does she want to raise your children to be little liars and adulterers like her? Kids need to be protected from that kind of corruption, not handed over to it freely. She is taking them around him in an attempt to normalize her affair. Don't let her use the kids like that.

I would call her up and tell her that under no circumstances are those kids to be exposed to her affair. If she wants to teach them that adultery is an acceptable lifestyle, then she needs to get a court order and a sheriff with a great big gun.

If she won't ensure there is no contact then she needs to have supervised visitation at your house while you are there.

Your kids need to see you taking a stand to protect them. It should not be left to a 13 year old to protect himself from his mother's stinky affair. That is your job, Sir!

It has been made clear the kids will not be around him from this point on! I'm forcing the issue of her stopping all contact him. I think I'm almost there.

Do I take her on a date now? I need direction on next steps to start repairing our marriage.

The kids and I are having a movie night tonight. Do I invite her over for that?

Sunday morning breakfast is my thing, she came over for that and things seemed good. We all laughed and enjoyed ourselves.

To plan A you need to

invite her to join you or you and the children in activities.

not lovebust when with her
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

show her you are willing to meet her emotional needs

and continue to protect yourself financially and custody wise to be in a strong position either way

Agree invite. Don't talk affair, or relationship. Just show case the new and improved you.

How do I do that when we sit apart from each other? I'm sure she will come over but it'll be like we are separate people. Maybe it'll all come together slowly. I guess she will at least be around me!

Why worry where who sits where when she is not even there yet?

Be creative.

WW enters home the some how is left open. You and the kids have the side chairs filled.

You get up put in the DVD and sit on sofa.

Now you are next to your WW.




How did you manage to figure out how to ask WW out when you first met her. I used a period not a question mark because I was not really asking that question.

UPDATE: My busy time at work is over, I've been working 6-7 days a week for last 6 weeks. Now I'm back to my normal schedule and I'm taking a couple days off.

I've been reading this forum for hours and doing some real studying. I have been doing half of everything and making it all worse.

I have a plan and wrote it down.

I'm going to Plan A until roughly July 20th. I'm going to be a ripped, sexy, happy, well dressed 38 year old, that can conqour the world. Best dad ever with lots of family time. I will not talk relationship, I'm going to make me a better man!



Plan B will follow.

Questions I have:
1 How do I cut off all comunication when we have kids?
2 Meet no emotional needs?
3 Do some of A and B cross over?
4 What about money? I'm thinking I just pay for items for kids, such as school lunches, clothes, groceries, etc. I think I should give her zero money, make her struggle. Does this sound correct?

Mr. Me,

It is an excellent plan.

1) The plan B letter will be a love letter that explains the conditions for her to return to the marriage.

2) You will not meet any emotional needs.

3) No crossover ... Plan A up until you Give Plan B letter ... then you will be out of her life entirely.

4) Speak with a lawyer about this. I encourage you to work a separation agreement out so she has no money from you to fuel her adultery.

Keep in mind the WW gets crazier and crazier the longer she is in an affair. This means you may want to keep a VAR on you at all times.

Are kids old enough to have cell phones?
Kids have access to computer?
You need a neutral place to have and a IM/3rd party to handle kid exchanges.

Yes the 2 older kids have cell phones. I leave so early for work I call them to make sure they are up and getting ready for school.

I get the youngest up and take him to her house in the mornings when I leave for work. That will be the problem with cutting off all communication. She lives very close to me, so the kids can go from house to house with a short couple minute walk.

I'm not sure about the entire emotional need thing right now. What limits do I set right now? She is still in the stage that she can't trust me or tell me anything. I have ruined her life in this town by telling everyone about her affair. She says she can't tell me anything because I will turn it around and use it against her. She is still in denial and has done nothing wrong in her eyes. She is in the exact stage that has been described in almost every story in this forum.

Be sure and bring up the AFFAIR as often as possible, though. If you don't, she will conclude you don't care very much.



You have all NECESSARY communication handled between an intermediary.


You don't meet any emotional needs.


No, any contact completely negates Plan B. Any mixture of the 2 is what Harley calls "PLan C" which is the most likely to lead to divorce.


I wouldn't give her any money. Keep the kids at home and let her have the kids for day time visitations.

Day time only visits will be impossible. I have my kids every other week as far as the 2 youngest. My 13 year old stays with me all the time. I have been forcing him to go to her house some. I think I'm done doing that, he can decide if and when he wants to see her. Her kids are her life and it will eat her up if she never sees him. I'm thinking anything I can do to make her miserable is for the best right now!

The Plan B letter is the crossover of the plans.
It is your love and desire to have a monogamous marriage with her given as your last (written) statement as you implement plan B.

Talk to a lawyer about how to separate financially and do it legally if you can in your state. The WW can swoop by to pick up and drop off the children at the curb if need be. The IM will be able to clarify this or an alternative for you with her once you are in plan B. Ideally she won't be coming by your home. That will be more angst for you.

Change the locks when you implement plan B (if you haven't yet).

Her kids might be her life, but being in an affair will trump that. It already has.

Is it in your kids best interest to be dragged out of their home every other week for her affair? Are you court ordered to do this? Their interests should be sacrificed for her selfishness.

She has called me a couple times today. She is having one of those crying days. She misses her kids and is miserable. She said she is about to give up and move back in, that way the kids and I can be happy. I told her she can't move back until she is ready to work on our relationship and make it great!

If she moves back she will have to give up all contact with him. That will include everything texting, talking and watching his nieces and nephews. I won't let her back until that happens.

No court order on kids and I don't think it can happen. If I would try that my daughter and 4 year old would hate me and drive a spike between us. I can't risk them hating me to get revenge on her! I'll keep going the way I am and make it the best possible for them.

SM, it is her affair that will drive a wedge between her and her children. It is not right to sacrifice your children's best interest to accommodate for their mothers selfish, wreckless behavior. How is it in your children's best interest to be ripped from their safe home so their mom can shag some loser?

Don't protect your wife from the natural consequences of her affair. That helps no one. It is important to put your children FIRST, not LAST.

Its already driving a spike between her and the kids. 13 year old has nothing to do with her, my 11 year old is torn, she loves her mom but hates what is going on and has resentment towards her right now.

When do I make a call for a phone session with the Harleys? Does she need to totally give up on him first? Will a phone session make her realize how wrong she has been and make her change her mind?

We are supposed to go on a date Friday night. Do I cancel that or just got and make the best of it.

I screwed up so much stuff in the early stages I'm wanting to do it the proper way now.

I would do a date. No relationship talk. No SF if she is still seeing OM. And then STD tests first.

And talk to a Harley ASAP. Even today if possible. It would be great for the both of you to have a session together. But still would be great and of immense importance for you to get strategies on how to fight this affair.

My point is that you should be doing what is best for your kids. She has wrecked her relationship with her children with her affair. You cannot erase that. So, do what is right for your kids.


The time to get counseling would be when the affair ends. However, you might want to get counseling with Steve just for yourself so he could give you some ideas about saving your marriage.


You should go! That is great!

But I would end this exchange with the kids. Let her know that is not fair that your kids get dragged out of their safe home to accommodate her sleazy affair. It also teaches them that adultery is acceptable and that is not the message you want to send to them.

I am not sure what you mean by "no relationship talk" but he needs to be bringing up the affair OFTEN. So what do you mean by "no relationship talk" specifically?


"Together?" Can you elaborate?

I'm not sure she is ready to talk to a counselor yet. How will I know when the time is right? I think she needs to go into it with an attitude of trying to fix things. She's not at the stage of repair yet. She is still in the I don't love/trust you stage and wants a divorce now.

You simply mention that you are doing phone counseling with a well respected counselor to help you take personal inventory on the crisis and she is welcome to join you should she ever choose to.

I believe that Steve and Jennifer (the coaches) have suggestions for getting waywards to speak to them.

You could also begin a file with them so they can refer to it in the future if your WW ever does decide to give them a try.

No relationship talk meaning WW doesn't want to be taught anything so you don't talk about how the affair is wrong is attempting to teach the WW. So spending time with a WW only to get her mad is not doing plan A.

Both talk to a Harley because of their well used line of wouldn't the best case senario for you to be in a love filled marriage with the dad/mom of your children. The Harleys have many tactful strategies to get a WS on board.

And if getting WW to talk with the Harley and she doesn't accept what they say what is the worse that can happen. WW is already having SF with her OM.

That's why it would be great to have the both of them call together. This BH is spinning his wheels and if his WW can hear something to start her thinking the fog can start to lift.

But you should of added the next sentence on your second quote of me. You took this line out of context.

That's where it would still be great for this BH to call even on his own because again the advice he can get for a Harley can help him through the current mind field that he is in.

"No relationship talk" is not part of Plan A at all. He should be telling her at every opportunity how painful her affair is to him. Otherwise, she will conclude he doesn't care. I would be careful when you tell people "no relationship talk" because they interpret that as not talking about the affair. That is NOT what the Harleys advise.


I wanted to make sure you understood they don't counsel couples together. You stated "it would be great for you to have a session together," and you might have meant sharing a session SEPARATELY, [her the first 30 minutes and him the last 30 minutes] so I wanted to clarify your meaning.

So how does he balance telling his WW how bad the affair is and plan A her.

You tell me. You have been here for years and should know this .

She still says this happened because I didn't show her love! I really don't think she has had sex with him yet. She has thrown it in my face to many times that she might as well have with the hell I have put her through about it. I know she has emotional feelings towards him, she told me that. I want to get this stopped before anything else progresses!

She said she would goto a counselor with me. I'm going to make an appointment with the Harleys tomorrow.

I'm asking to get the best info out there for SM.

I don't know what other reason you may think I have.

It is typical for waywards to blame their affairs on their spouses. But ask yourself how having an affair addressed the problem of you not showing her love? Did it resolve that problem? Of course not. The truth is that she had an affair because she has poor boundaries around men.

I think that is awesome if you can get her on the phone with Steve Harley. I betcha she thinks she can get validation for her affair as she would with your typical counselor. Your typical counselor believes fogbabble and validates waywardism. So expect some fireworks between her and Steve!

I would set up the appt as soon as you can before she changes her mind.

ASK FOR STEVE!!!

Then stop telling newcomers "no relationship talk."

SM, have you ever read any of Mortarman's threads? [now in a recovered marriage] I will never forget one time his got his wayward wife on the phone with Steve Harley. She got on the phone in the basement for her segment and Mortarman was upstairs. MM said he could hear his WW screaming at Steve in the basement!

Don't be thrown off if she has gone physical with him. Most waywards would deny it even if caught in the act.

To address the confusion about whether to talk about the relationship or not in plan A.....I think I have it figured out and will share my thoughts on that.

You don't try to educate the wayward about how what they are doing is wrong.
You don't keep saying "I love you" over and over again since they are deflecting that and it isn't adding love bank units. You simply show loving feelings like giving a smile, a wink, a touch.
You do say "I want a monogamous relationship and will not accept anything short of it to stay married. I want to be married to you but will not take less than 100% of you." Factually where it fits in a conversation.
If they start talking about the marriage and how it sucked, you redirect and say "I agree, a sucky marriage is not acceptable. I want to create a fulfilling one together for us both."

So.....you try to do enjoyable things in plan A.
You show you can be one heck of a person to spend time with.
You don't try to educate them but you are honest about how less than a monogamous relationship will not be acceptable.

An important part of Plan A is to continually express your devastation about the affair. To avoid that subject is unnatural [weird] and gives the impression that you don't care very much. It also tells her that the affair isn't that big of a deal to you.

Therefore, it is your job to convey to her how big of a deal it really is. And one of the ways you do this is to tell her that it is inappropriate for your kids to be exposed to the OM.

Pep's Carrot and Stick to Plan A

Love this ML - this is so spot on ... NEVER EVER be okay with the adultery ... please pass the cheese you lovely wayward!!!

Totally agree with ML! Continuing to communicate this point with WW without love-busting is important to help her to see things in the proper perspective, it also helps her to own the responsibility of her actions. Your willingness to work on the M does not mean she was wronged (she believes that her A was caused by the misery she suffered in the M).

Also, to add on: if you can't effectively do that on your own, counseling with the Harleys will help tremendously.

In general, WS's often fail to grasp the magnitude of how their actions affect their spouses, once they want to work on the M, they have the tendency to sweep all under the rug and "move on". That does not help complete healing and recovery and protection against future A.

Steve Harley did an excellent job to help my H understand how badly his A hurt me. He jump-started the process, prepare my H to be receptive so when I spoke to my H about this subject, he was willing to hear and to understand, thus helped both of us to move along much quicker in our process.

Also, in your case, I believe there needs to have a NC letter written by your wife and mailed by you to the OM. I believe it's important to completely put an end to the A. The NC letter in the book Surviving Affair is excellent!

I filled out all the internet process tonight to get an appointment with Steve. I hope they call tomorrow and get an appointment set up. I think my wife is at a weak point and this would be a good time to start.

Yes a letter will have to happen and a totally open relationship with access to everything. Might be a good reason to drop facebook which I'm starting to feel like it's the devil.

I have seen very few success stories reading the forums. Maybe I haven't looked deep enough yet.

There are lots of us! You just don't see as many of our threads because once the marriage is saved, they quit posting because they don't need help anymore. You have just as much chance as anyone else.

ML is totally right. I've seen more than one recovered BS leave because they no longer needed help.

Yes, for a very short time being here (2 months), I already saw a few who left after they succeeded. They no longer needed help nor the support from this forum so they either quit or moved to other forums on this site.

The road to recovery is narrow and most marriages crumble after adultery; however, if you can ruin the affair and run off OM, that's the first step.

The next step is to work the MB plan, for this is, from what we have seen and experienced ourselves, the best way to restore the love in the marriage AND to avoid future affairs.

There are successes, but it takes a plan and it will take both of you to be fully invested in the MB program.

First step, WW becomes a FWW.

I think MOST marriages survive; however, the people that show up here are not representative of MOST affair situations. Often (not always) people turn to the internet (and a discussion forum such as this) after having tried to fix things on their own for quite some time. MOST affairs are one-night stands or old affairs discovered and as such MOST marriages survive infidelity, however, few thrive after infidelity is discovered and that's where, for me...the "narrow path" of Marriage Builderes really is the only way.

Dr. Harley guestimates that only about 20% of all marriages are really loving successful marriages.* He studied the behavioral practices and habits of that 20% and created a program for us to learn how to copy/mimic them. I told my wife early on that we were going to be one of that 20% or it wasn't even worth "recovering". I refused (in 2005) to remain in a loveless marriage...for long.

Point is...staying married might be the easy part. "Recovering" and rebuilding a loving marriage of extraordinary care is the tricky part. The people that leave this forum after merely busting up the affair and getting their spouse home are missing out. They may have/are completely missed/missing an opportunity to REBUILD using this program. IMO...you've got to implement a program ASAP. If you snooze on implementation it'll be too late a year or two down the road as the wayward will presume it's been swept under the rug and hesitant to work anything. Unfortunately, absent a program far too many end up right back here with another infidelity situation months or even years down the road and often it's the BS who becomes a WS and their spouse shows up here. The program is important for BOTH spouses to implement.

It's been 7 years since Dday for us. My wife went away this past weekend with my DD12 to visit her brother and their new baby out of state. We haven't been apart often the last 7 years and I missed her to a shocking degree and worried about them. I am more romantically in love with her TODAY than I ever was before in our relationship and she me. Dr. Harley's program (and website) truly saved our marriage.

Mr. Wondering

*As I recall he estimated the percentages of first marriages
40% divorce
20% separated
20% Co-exist to varying degrees of disdain & care
20% Successful loving marital relationships

I just filled out my questionares for Steve. We have an appointment for tomorrow. I feel it's a start to recovery! I hope she feels the same way after tomorrow's session. I hope she considers the kids heavily on us staying together, I feel that is my only hope right now.

Everything went to [censored] tonight. We had a huge blow up! I told her that if the kids were ever around him I would get nasty! I told her I had talked with a lawyer and would get a court order for the kids to be with me and she would get supervised visits only. I also told her that the lawyer told me I had a very good chance of getting full custody of the kids.

I didn't realize her mom didn't know her feelings towards him. She called her while I was there. I'm not sure how her mom will take it? I think she will stick with her no matter what.

She is now calling it blackmail that I won't divorse her. I told her I do marriage not divorse! I told her for us to have her perfect divorse she had to goto these counseling classes with me. She said I've never felt it before but I HATE you now.

You did really, really good telling her that it will not be pretty if she tries to divorce you and/or drag your kids into her sleaze! The only thing I would watch, my friend, is fighting with her. It is OK to be firm and let her know you won't cooperate with divorce and won't let her harm the kids, though.

You did VERY GOOD!

That "hate" will turn to RESPECT soon enough. She hates you because you made it clear you won't allow her to take you and the kids down in the sewer with her and the OM. She will thank you some day for standing up for your marriage and your children.

Yup. Watch the angry outbursts but ........you did good.

Yes, she will admire you later for having done this for her and your kids.

I was pretty calm the entire time! She is the one that blew up and started yelling and crying. I came home and talked with my 2 oldest kids. I told them everything. I also told them she was going to say stuff about me getting full custody and they would never see them again. I had to tell my daughter all of this because she loves her mom so much. I explained to them that mom is in a fog right now because she loves another man and that it is 100% wrong for her to do that. I also told them they should hate him if they ever wanted us to be a happy family again. Its not a problem for my oldest its my 11 year old daughter that has a problem with it.

I told her if she tried to move and take the 2 youngest kids I would have a court order that day and the kids would be mine and she might goto jail for leaving area with my kids.

She kept telling me this was family stuff only and I kept telling her everyone needs to know the entire truth. She said fine I'll let everyone know that you have been a bad husband and have not showed me the love I have needed for the last few years. I told her that was good the truth needed to be out for everyone to know.

Needless to say I don't have a date with her tomorrow. She is still going to listen to Steve with me, that might change by tomorrow though. Right now I think she will still listen to him but she says I will tell him everything I feel and I told her that was good that's what we need to repair this. She said it'll NEVER be repaired after what you've done now.

I'm starting to realize I have nothing to lose and everything to gain so I might as well get nasty.

Is what I'm doing blackmail?

No. You are fighting for her.

She says that now, but she will eventually see that you're stepping up to protect your family, your children, her, and her long-term relationships with the kids.

Her mom just contacted me in a message on Facebook and told me she told her to stay away from him and to go talk with someone such as a counselor. I hope she will listen to her mom I doubt it though.

You stayed calm.

You need to stay calm. Why would a WW want to be married to nasty. Nasty is not plan A.

You are not extorting any one. You are just making WW aware of the consequences ofr her actions.

My oldest and I just talked. He misses his mom and wants to be around her. He said he would start staying with her some if she would never contact him again. I guess we will see how this goes. I bet she keeps on texting him and stuff. It'll be her loss.

For the first time since all of this started I feel like I'm in the drivers seat now and I feel good about it. For almost a month now I have been a lost soul. I feel better now then I have at any time since this started.

No - it is not blackmail. Standing up for your family is honorable.

They use that verbiage to make their guilt lesson. They cannot abandon their family easily if the truth stands in their way.

Adulterers believe that falling in love with another person will not do any harm as long as the betrayed spouse plays along. They believe their feelings are justified and since it is true love all will work out in the end.

.... Basically anyone who divorces uses this excuse so their guilt won't eat them alive ....

It is all a bunch of bull chit!!!

You took the driver's wheel back from your drunk wife. You did very good, SM! Guess you have to change your screen name, now!

I'll change it to Smart Me when we are a happy family again.

My oldest is going to tell her tonight he will come over and be with her but if she ever talks with him again, he'll never come back. I know it seems wrong to use my kids but I guess whatever it takes at this point.

SM, is that what your son wants to tell her? That is not using your kids if that is how he feels. Kids get very upset about affairs and they have every right to express those feelings to the offending parent. Your wife is destroying her relationship with her kids and she needs to hear all about it. I know of 2 situations right now where a teenager refuses to spend any time with the WS and the judge won't force them.

Here is what Dr. Harley wrote to one board member:

Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what. When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.

What you did is not blackmail. Blackmail is extortion with the threat of revealing a secret. What you did was the opposite and gave you a chance.

Here is a quote from my thread just a day or so after I exposed. I had been resistant at first for all the normal reasons, but kept reading here and finally did it and came back.

"After discovering an email about two weeks ago, I confronted W and OM, turned up the pressure, but did not expose. This was a big mistake, if you are in my shoes. All that did was temporarily stop the contact, and it put me in the position that W felt I was blackmailing her. I had a big hammer I could drop if she did not do what I wanted. Not very healthy for our relationship."

Not exposing is blackmail. Exposing is lancing a nasty sore so it can possibly dry up.

Full disclosure. My marriage did not make it. But I believe a big reason it did not was that I had let things go on too long, several months before I found MB. Early and decisive action is needed.

I never regretted exposing. My situation was one that could cause much embarrassment. My regret is that I did not do it quickly and emphatically enough.

He wants to tell her. He told her a couple weeks ago he hated her for everything she has done the past few weeks. I just told him to be firm and demand zero contact! He said he would talk to her tonight and tell her everything, I told him to be strong and don't sway. I also told him it would be good if she called him while he was there and tell him they can never talk to each other again. He said if they talk again he won't ever go back. I'm coaching him but he wants to do it.

I agree with this. Waiting to expose seems to water down exposure's effect because the affair and the wayward mindset become too entrenched after a certain point. Harley alludes to this fact in several of his radio clips. In fact, he says in his exposure article to "expose immediately." Here are some of the radio clips where he indicates the BH waited too long:


another one here: part 1, part 2

This guy never exposed and his wife was leaving him: here

This is wrong. There should not be any interaction. It should be done by letter only.

She's on the phone with Steve. I'm having my doubts because she really hates me right now!

You have a chance now. You know you have been told to expect the anger.

Expect it and embrace it. The madder she is, the more she "hates" you, the stronger your blow to the affair was.

At least she is on the phone. That is quite a good thing.

Well? How did it go? Did she scream at Steve?

I don't think she did, at least I didn't hear it in the garage. She talked to him for about 40-50 minutes. Then I talked for a bit. Then we both talked at same time.

We discussed after the call if she wanted to listen to him more. She is willing to go through more sessions. She doesn't think it'll help or change her mind about wanting a divorce. I did print off the questionares for her and gave address so she could read basic concepts.

Now I need to work on myself! I can tell this will takes months to repair if it does go that far

Thats great!! He may not have got through to her yet, but at least she committed to more sessions.

What did Steve tell you to work on?

Excellent job SM!!! Your really stepping up to the plate here with how you are going about all this. keep up the great work!

MNG

I need to understand the mechanics of marriage. I need to work on not love busting. Impress her that I'm going to be an expert husband.

She just blew up again, when she came to get the kids. She is twisting everything I say around. All I want is for him to never be around my kids, they shouldn't have to be around or hear about him! She is so pissed at me for telling the kids about him. She says that nobody should have known about him, that should have been kept between us only! She says she still would have asked for divorce even without him being involved. I keep saying that's a lie!

I just hope she will reed the basic concepts and continue counseling!

From this point on I'm going to be Mr Nice Guy and do whatever it takes to be nice around her.

She's really gonna flip out if she decides to take money out of our account and realizes I paid all bills online and drained it! I got a new account also and will change my direct deposit on Monday. I'm not giving her any money but I'm paying for the stuff the kids need, school lunches, haircuts etc

Thats right! You should just focus on being nice and not fighting with her. Let her know that since her affair affects everyone, that everyone should know. You won't be keeping it a secret!

How much are billboards in your town?

B-E-A-utiful SM. You've done some SERIOUS damage here. So now you are seeing the benefit of exposure. Her love story has now become a criminal offense to all her friends and family. It's no longer a love story as she's painted it in her foggy mind. It's been reduced to what it really is; sleazy, deceitful and immoral. It's not so romantic now.


LOL. I almost suggested this to someone recently. How much do they cost anyway?

This is StupidMe I told Steve my screen name on the phone the other day and she was in the room. I changed my name just in case.

I can't stop the affair and I know it has gotten more serious since she moved out. My kids are not around him, I did get that stopped.

She came over tonight and she wants a divorce right now! The only thing stopping her is she wants to do an online divorce and we be nice and agree on everything. I told her if she wants a divorce now it won't be nice. We were nice when we were talking.

What do I do now?

SC, you need to calm down. This is a very normal, very prescribed response to having her little fantasy world blown slap apart nuclear style. It's still early into exposure, so don't go off half cocked thinking the worse and that it's all over. Nothing could be further from the truth. She's still reeling over the magnitude of all this.

I wouldn't bet on this. On the surface it may seem that way, but there are some serious undercurrents that are starting to have an impact. And this is a direct result of your actions.

Perfect. Lay it out neatly and precisely that you will NOT roll over for her comfort. Inform her firmly that if this is the course of action she intends to pursue then you will fight with all you have in you. Make it clear it will NOT be an easy out for her. Then offer her to make her favorite dinner.

What about the OM. Ever thought of getting in his wimpy little face? I'm gonna go back and read some more about what you have done there, but that side may need to be attacked more. I tend to get threads mixed up and forget who has done what. Well, except one.

First off, retain a lawyer and talk about your options.

If I were you, I would really consider going ahead and filing first. I know you don't want to. I wish I had.

The biggest reason is then you have control; of the timetable. She is reacting to your moves, not the other way. You control how fast or slow it goes, not her. Also, it would be another thing she didn't plan on, it won't fit neatly into her fantasy script.

I would really consider it.

I come from a nasty fighting back ground. I'm very good at fighting and been in jail a few times for it in my younger years. The OM is about6'5" and I know it will be a fight to the death if that happens. I need to stay away from him, it won't be good. I can't go to jail. I need to be nice for my kids, even though my 13 year old wants it.

I told her I've done zero healing and need time before I file for divorce. She doesn't want to be around me at all. I'm starting to think 100% ignore and zero contact.

I know she is worried to death about bills and how her as a single mom can make it on her own without child support.

The lawyer I will use is family so that's taken care of. I've already talked to him. He's known as the best lawyer in this area for divorce. I told her I wouldn't do that so I'd rather not file right now.

She did tell me she has feelings for him but didn't think he was someone that she could see herself with.

Okay, fair enough on FTF confrontation. But you say it's a small town. Are you getting no feedback from the "other side" at all though other channels? That seems unusual. It would seem to me that a town that small is just jumping at a chance to stir the pot a little.

I tend to agree with Herb here. You're in control again, and she doesn't like it. I would file on grounds of adultery, let her know that OM will be called to the witness stand and anyone else that can provide proof. A town this small should ramp up the pressure just a bit. Now, this doesn't mean you have to go through with it, but it WILL show her, and the POS, that you mean business. You can fight like hell without ever having thrown a punch. (BTW, I was never advocating physically fighting)

BTW, what state do you live in?

She's throwing you a bone to keep you on the hook (sorry about that metaphor-mixing thing, there ) She wants you both. Don't assume she's going to eventually end it with OM because she can't 'see herself' with him.

I'm getting some info from the other side but there isn't much to be told. With me exposing everything she has lost everyone as friend except for him. She is embaressed to go out in public. She won't go into grocery store because everyone is talking. She just had knee surgery and is on crutches so she isn't moving around much. She drives a burnt orange H2 so everyone sees everything she does. I'm texted lots about where her vehicle is.

I live in Kansas.

I can't be alone with him or it will happen. I know I'll snap!

I understand completely. Been there, done that. I'm not violent by nature, but on that one night, I was extremely violent. Went to jail for a couple of days, but to this day, I don't regret it. That being said, I'm not at all proud of it either. I stood tall (the way I saw it then) and I won't apologize for fighting for what I thought was mine. Unfortunately, upon further review, I realized I was a big part of the reason why this happened. NOT a very good revelation.

Okay, stay the course for now. Miss Bliss is right; she's throwing you a bone to pacify you and hopefully stop you from inflicting further damage on her little fantasy and reputation. A bit late for that bone.

Make her choices difficult

I need direction, I have no clue what the coarse is now?

How would filing for divorce save my marriage?

If my 4 year old starts talking about stuff uncle David did this week, I'm going to file and be the nastiest I can be. I don't think that'll save my marriage but end it quicker then anything. I'd rather be divorced then have my kids around him!

Uh, Uncle David? Are you related to the guy your WW is messing around with, or is just the "friend" that is considered as an uncle?

My wife baby sits his neice and nephew, they call him uncle David so my boy does too.

You do nothing but a stellar Plan A. You don't file for divorce. You make her file and do all the hard work. If she does file, then you also get a lawyer. If she has moved out, then make sure she has no access to your money, and your children stay in their home. Let her fend for herself with finances.

Counterfile on Adultery and seek full custody for your kids with her paying you child support.

Until she files ... you Plan A like a rock star.

These are the only words you stay to her ..."I don't talk divorce, I only talk marriage, would you like mashed or whipped potatoes with steak on Saturday?"

Repeat ... repeat ... repeat

I have switched banks. Current checking account is drained.

She moved out a couple weeks ago. She has 11, and 4 year old every other week. I'm keeping 13 year old full time.

Dang hard to Plan A with her moved out and will speak to me very little.

I really think we are past plan A at this point. I spent some time already and can be in a full Plan B in one day. I really think she needs to miss me at this point. Plus I'm starting to get sick of seeing her right now. My sadness about affair kids her moving is starting to turn into pure anger.

In my opinion, plan b is largely misunderstood in this regard:

One of the chief reasons for plan b is to hold on to a shred of desire to reconcile if the WS decides to pull their head out of you know where.

If you do want to reconcile still but are nearing the point of saying F it, then you need to go into plan b pronto.

A stellar plan a has it's limits.

I still stand by my suggestions of filing first, even if you want to reconcile. The process moves along at your pace. She still knows your requirements and that you will end it at any time if she meets them.

I think she has those very hidden deep feelings that maybe it could work out but feels it's to far gone. She is so stubborn it's unreal, actually we both are. I'd still like to save it at this point. As long as she is involved with OM it can never work out!

The adultery will die ... It will ...

Work on you to be the best you can be ... "shescrazy" the goal of your Plan A is to look at "Iamimperfect"

What are you doing today to be the man that is irresistible to her?

Plan A like a rock star no matter how much she resists ... Plan A for you ... What kind of husband do you want to be for her or in the worse case scenario ... a new wife

GO DO IT!!!!

I have lost 20 lbs since January 29th! I've started working out, my body should be ripped in 6 weeks. She loved my body when we got together. I've got a new hair style, more in style then what I've had. I've bought a few new in style cloths. I've been doing fun stuff with the kids on my weeks. I have big plans Saturday and have been giving 13 and 11 year olds hints. It has them both going crazy and guessing what we are doing. WW knows about me having big plans buy she doesn't know what it is, she has text me a couple times asking.

Plan A = invite her along.


"she did tell me she has feelings for him but didn't think he was someone that she could see herself with." As a FWW, I can tell you that this is a straight out lie. She's trying to ease you into believing that OM has nothing to do with it. And she knows you are hyper-focused on their affair, and wants to divert your attention away from it.

I'm not sure I can invite her along right now! I'm so sick of her and her crap I can't hardly stand it!

She says her main goal is for the kids to be happy. I think she's lying to herself and everyone else! If that's what she wanted she wouldn't be doing this affair, she would end it and start focusing on her family!

It is time to do ACTION then on your BIG plans. When my WH's adultery started I was constantly telling him what I was doing ... losing weight, stopping my anger, having a better kept home, etc.

He refused to believe me ... he refused to see the changes ... until one day when Plan B was broke and I stepped out and all my "Words" turned into "Actions" for him. The first words out of his mouth? How much weight have you lost ... so I see you have a cleaning lady ... Your job pays you that much?

I accomplished all his grievances and then some ... MAKE THE ACTIONS HAPPEN.

How Can you be IRRESISTIBLE TO HER? MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!

All of you make this sound so easy! It's almost impossible when she will have nothing to do with me. One of you says the affair will deminish itself and others say it won't stop. Who do I believe?

There are no guarantees either way.

All you control is what you do. Nothing else.

Don't let yourself get too far gone to recover.

Really, all you can do is what is right for YOU at this juncture.
No one knows how it will shake out for your marriage in the end.

The right thing for you right now is to
be your best self.

To show yourself you can, in the worse of circumstances, rise above the heartache and do good deeds. Be kind. Be firm. Be open to potentially saving the marriage and yet do not take crumbs. All while being someone who does not resort to
angry outbursts
disrespectful judgements
selfish demands (telling her the other person needs to go is not selfish, its a fact)

You do all this for you.
It allows for her to get her head together but doesn't guarantee she ever will.

In the future, you will look back at how you handled this mess either way and you want to be able to say you have self respect and strength and were able to rise above the hurt it was causing while doing your duty as a good spouse and parent.

When this is done no matter how it turns out, I'll be able to look my kids in the eye and tell them I tried my best to save it.

Yes, you will.

This isn't easy ... it is the hardest darn thing on the planet. I am here to tell you it gets easier. I am 18 months out from the adultery starting and 16 months out from Dday ... ceasing all contact with my WH has made it get easier.

I give you advice based on where I am at today because the goal is to get you healed enough to be in a good place. The irony is you are healed enough to either save your marriage or get divorced.

Recovering a marriage is as hard as getting divorced. No matter what you have to make the changes in order to grow yourself.

The key to adultery is to understand what lead up to the adultery. Horrific boundaries around the opposite sex causes adultery ... many times the marriage was fragile before they crossed their boundary mark.

What can you do to be a great husband "NO MATTER WHAT TODAY"?

That is where you want to strive in your personal recovery. It is hard to have your entire world shatter, break into pieces, and fully grasp your spouse is the one who dropped the nuclear bomb.

As reading stated we cannot change the destruction they caused ... all we can do is clean it up better so a bomb never goes off again.

I suggest you work on your Plan A and look at yourself ... are you the best darn person you can be today?

I agree about hardest thing on planet. My parents got in a car wreck Oct 7. We weren't sure my dad was going to make it. He finally came home Feb1 and is barely moving around in with a walker.

This is 10 times worse then the first 2 weeks after that wreck was, it's just unreal.

I know what you mean. I had a brother commit suicide during the time my divorce was happening. As bad as it was, it did not even register when compared to what The rejection by my wife caused me to feel.

Agree with you all...my mother passed away when I was 16. As devastating as that was, the affair was far worse and so much more turbulent. I truly almost lost my marbles. Probably because it was intentional?

That is how I hear people talk about it. Deaths do not hit as hard as infidelity because the deaths were not intentional.

I've been reading tons about exposing and ending the affair. I have a plan!!!

I need your opinions!!!


When my 4 year old comes to my house Friday night and I ask him if uncle David was there and if he says yes. I start world war 3!

I tell my wife she knew what would happen if he was there. I tell her I'm doing this because I care about my family! I tell her I know the best thing for my family is us to be in love and have happy children. I love her and I know whats best. I will not divorce her while she is with him.

After that I tell her she has to choices.

Choice 1

She ends everything with him NOW! She ends everything 100% and she moves back and we work on the Marriage Builders Program. We have open everything. We both have each others passwords to facebook, phone, email, etc. I will not divorce you while you have feelings for him, if you want divorce now it will be WAR. We don't have to sleep in the same bed. We will be together as a family> We will work on marriage builders together. We will spend time together talking and discussing everything. 100% honesty will happen. If she still hates me in a year, she can have her easy divorce.

Choice 2

She keeps seeing him! I file divorce because of adultery. I tell all of her daycare parents the truth about her having an affair! Who wants their kid to be watched by someone with zero morals. She will loose daycare kids and her job/money. I supena everyone she has ever partied with and has seen stuff happen between them. I'm guessing it will be about 25 people. I will have him supened also and have him tell about his 3 some with him and another guy and girl he was bragging about early this winter and said he had pictures. I drag him through the mud. His dad is in prison for child porn. That looks very bad on him in a town this small. I can ruin him and her in this town! She won't be able to get a job. People without jobs, don't have vehicles, houses, furniture! People that don't have that stuff don't have kids! I hate to say anything about kids because that causes war with her.


Whats every ones thoughts. I have local people telling me NO!

Don't threaten it. Just do it. Don't use blackmail, use the truth.

You need to destroy the affair, not just let it die on its own. 'Cause it won't.

Don't you realize yet that you are at war with her yet?

Threats just cause resentment

What do you mean don't use blackmail us the truth? It will all be truth.

So your saying use this approach 100%? I assume I should expect her to totally blow up even more then she ever has during this time?

I know her and my daughter have talked and told her she regrets everything that has happened and wish she had never done it. She said it will never be the same though so she can't go back.

I'm thinking this might be the push she needs to start working our marriage problems out. If its the push away, I've lost nothing because she wants a divorce anyway.

Uh, you left a LOT of this out initially if memory serves me correctly, but unfortunately, it seldom does.

What the hell are you waiting on? This should have been blown sky high from the beginning! If she loses customers, and respect, because of her self inflicted character degradation, then so be it. Not your fault. That was HER choice. She has the God given liberty to make her choices, but she NO say in the consequences of those choices.

What you do from here is up to you. I know what I would do.

I've never thought of it as being at war with her. I still love her even though I'm pissed off this happened. She's the mother of my kids.

I never actually thought about it. Until early this morning, you know the normal 2-3am awake times now days. I realized I will not divorce her while she is having an affair. She is not thinking straight. I realized I have to END the affair NOW. This evil plan popped into my mind.

Oh so wrong way of thinking here! It's not an evil plan, but a loving one. Your plan is to kill this affair so you can have a standing chance at recovering your marriage. This is not about revenge, or evil intentions, retribution, etc etc. This is about taking all measures to restore your family. You keep up this attitude and frame of mind then you might as well head straight to divorce court.

Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Now, do what needs to be done.

Do not threaten to expose the affair unless she does this or that. That IS blackmail and will be resented. A lot.

You only task right now is end the affair. So:

Expose. No warning to let her get out ahead and spin things around and tell everyone you are crazy. Just have your exposure targets lined up and tell them calmly and matter of fact and ask then for their help to end the affair because you want to work things out. No emotional pleas, no embellishments, just the truth. What they do is up to them. Just tell the truth.

Do it all at once as fast as you can, no dragging it out.

Follow the link in this link and read a summary of my story.

mmmherb story

A coerced concession (ie, I will tell if you don't do this or that) is useless and will make her really hate you. Not like she does now, but for real.

You are at war with what she is now, an affair addled wayward wife. It is time for action, not saber rattling.

If you don't expose, the affair will not be killed. It may be dormant, but not dead. It should be exposed even if she comes back. It needs to be destroyed forever. The light of exposure can do that.

WOW, I think I'm taking a day off tomorrow. I need to get things lined up and ready. I need to get phone numbers, addresses, talk to lawyer again. I need to prepare myself for this war I've been in since January 29th and didn't know I was in. I feel like such an idiot. I've been in a gun fight with a knife and I'm done. I need to do some spying in the morning also. I'm glad she lives so close.

I also need to get 100% ready for Plan B.

Just because I know I can and can do it easily, I'm taking this guy down so hard it's unreal! I plan on making it so hard for him he'll have to leave town. They started this war and I'm going to finish it!

If I get divorced because I get so nasty about this I don't care, I'm getting divorced as it sits now.

Wow I feel so much better! I can't wait to see the look on her face when I tell her what I've done!

If it goes to divorce now, I might have to get video of the court action.

There is a thread here titled the "Art of War" that you need to read. Do not reveal your strategy to the enemy. Do not threaten or reveal your plans.

Do not make statements like "I will not divorce you". Just don't. It might be how you feel, but she does not need to know that - it gives your power to her. She needs to be off-balance and unsure.

And your exposure is not done in anger.

You need to set the right tone. You are not doing it to be vindictive -- but to ask for help in convincing your wife to END the AFFAIR.

Take the high road. Do exposure with KINDNESS. Then see the contrast when your WW goes ballistic and spews venom!

You need to read Lexxxy's post.

Exposure is just giving information.

Make sure it is to everyone that can influence spouse.

It is a weapon against the affair. Not to stick it to people, not to teach a lesson, not to see the look on anyone's face.

I got no glee or real pleasure out of it. It was something to be done. There was satisfaction, but in knowing that I finally took a stand, not in what was to come, other than in the broad sense that the affair was damaged.

Do not come off to your wife or anyone else as a vindictive person. Ruins your credibility.

And vengeance is not healthy for you, either.

Exactly!

From my "carrot/stick" link.........

She said she hates me for everything I've done. I should have never told anyone about this. She said she's never coming back and wants a divorce right now.

She also said I look terrible with the weight I've lost. I'm right at the weight when we met years ago.

Average wayward spew.(above)

After exposure blowback (below .... from carrot/stick thread)

Did WW stomp her feet and thrust out her lower lip?


Remember, change the subject when she says stupid stuff.
"I don't have divorce papers on me." (check your pockets as you speak)
"Have you ever wondered what walking in Paris in the rain feels like?"

You don't even need to make sense. Or, be on topic. Just be pleasant.

"What is your favorite pasta sauce? I feel like cooking."

My feelings exactly SC. My W sounds the same. Very stubborn and I feel she thinks it's gone too far.

If you haven't already, check out my thread.

I read your story sounds the same, actually most sound the same!

My Plan A has been terrible to this point! I hope I haven't pushed her to far away.

Does there come a time in all of this that the BS just gives up and get the divorce over with? I still love her and want to work it out. I'm just not sure I can handle this much pain for months on end. Loosing 20 lbs in 30 days is not good.

It kills me to know she is spending time with him. I love having my kids here and got all of them with me for the next week. On the other hand I like them being with her then I know she is not with him.

Just thoughts running through my head after waking up in the middle of the night.

Hopefully that helped!

Once in awhile we hit the donut shop on a Saturday morning. I went this morning and got my wife's favorite. I sent her a text and said the donut fairy has arrived and left it on her door knob. I didn't get a reply but it made me feel good. I know those days/nights without kids are terrible.

How are her finances? I know you drained your common accounts a while ago.

Keep this in mind as this move forward. You wife's previous life and lifestyle enabled her to hook up with POSOM. He doesn't seem to have brought a lot to the table (Living with Granny? Really?) One of your best strategies will be making sure her "new" lifestyle is getting no support from you, to continue her shagging of Mr. H2.

You say she does daycare? Were Mr H2's nieces/nephews your wife's clients? Would all the other mothers who drop their children with WW be interested in learning that WW bags other men - like possibly THEIR HUSBANDS? Certainly might reduce the business, wouldn't you say?

She is going to struggle to make it. She can make it though. She won't have near the life style she had before. She owns the H2 not him.

Her daycare parents know about him.

A good night! My daughter and I baked a cake this afternoon and she made enchiladas and spanish rice. She called the wife and she came over for supper. We had the table set, TV off and had a nice time with lots of laughing and joking. She actually set here for a little bit after dinner and we all talked about the kids fun day of getting to go off roading and them getting to drive.

Tomorrow were going to my sisters to see the horses and feed the new bucket calves.

Shescrazy...just read your story. Everything here looks typical...nothing new. And in many ways, as others have told you...yoi have done good. So, the attaboys are deserved for those.

But I am going to do to you what several good people did to me when I was going through my mess ten years ago. Put your helmet on because I am going to smack you around a bit. Okay?

First, as you know, your wife has left all sanity behind right now. She is in the fog of an affair. Now, you have kids about the same ages mine were when it happened to me. Do you think your kids need TWO parents flopping around like fish on the deck of the ship?

Look, we understand the feelings that come with all of this. And unfortunately, no one ever gave us a marriage roadmap before we got married. So, many of the things you are doing are natural and expected. But guess what? You are the MAN of the house. Unfortunately, you dont get to do the EXPECTED.

Your family NEEDS you to be the sane person...the rock. Unmoving, unchanging. There is so much change going on right now. Your kids feel unsafe. And to be honest, they dont even trust you...as you flop around from wanting the marriage and talking about divorce. No one can feel safe in that environment...INCLUDING your wife!!!

When I said above that your FAMILY needs you to be the rock, that includes your wife! Look, you want to know who is the MOST scared right now? It is your wife. She has made a huge mess. As you said, everyone has turned against her, including her kids. She has backed herself into a corner, and she has no idea how to get out of it.

And here, the one person that actually does care about her...is her family...and you go from saying "I love you" one minute, and then talking about taking her kids and leaving her with nothing the next. I know she made these stupid decisions. I know she continues to do insane things. But you MUST ask yourself RIGHT NOW...do you love her? Do you want your marriage to continue?

If the answer is no, then call your lawyer and end this now.

If the answer is yes, then being the rock means you are going to have to steady your hand on the steering wheel of this ship.

No more talk of divorce. When she talks about it, say "I do marriage, my lawyer does divorce. If you want to talk about marriage and our family...I am right here. If you want to talk about divorce, call my attorney." Stop THREATENING! Sure, you should be getting your waterfowl coaxially aligned! But you do that in silence. You prepare yourself for what you HOPE wont happen. But EVERYTIME you tell her what you will do to her...it comes as a threat to her...and she moves further away from you.

I know she is hurting you. But you are hurting her. Now, will YOU be the sane one and stop this cycle of hurt? Love means NOT giving your wife what she DESERVES and instead giving her what she NEEDS!

I saw a few pages back you wanted to know how to know when to go to Plan B. First off, you need to do a stellar Plan A. Plan B will NEVER work without it. But, let me help you with this a little. When I was in my mess, I promised myself that I would do the following (and I did everyday): I woke up early every morning before the kids woke up. I walked into their rooms, sat beside their beds and looked at them. I spent about ten minutes with each of them. Then I went back to my room and asked myself...am I ready to end this? As long as the answer was NO, then I went on with that day and my plan.

When the answer is YES, well, then you call the lawyer...you go dark to her...and you leave it all in God's hands.

I could post a very long post here. But you have talked to Steve. The Harley's books and principles are here to read (or but and read). And on these threads are countless stories JUST LIKE YOURS. And many successes.

I dont know if you are a Christian or not, but if you are...you need to know that God has called you to love your wife like Jesus loves us. What kind of love is that? It is the kind that loves her even though she is actively hurting you. We were killing Jesus, yet He loved us. This is no different!

No matter how this all ends, your path is the same. You must earn your way out of the marriage. You must do everything you can to rescue your family. All of it! If your wife choses to stay in the burning building, you cannot force her to leave. But I can tell you...almost all women want to be rescued, whether they want to admit it our not.

So, come here and vent and lose it sometimes. But with your family...you MUST maintain control. Time to fully man up.

Oh, and one quick thing more...defending boundaries is doing the right thing. So saying the kids are not to be around the OM is proper. Saying if the kids are around the OM, you are going to take her to court and leave her destitute is not.

For example, here is the right way to handle that:

"Our family does not want to be around the OM. This is not proper, and you know it. Our kids know it, because we both raised them right. With that, you must understand in order to protect our family, the OM can never be around our kids. You know that I will do anything to protect our family. I love all of us, including you. So, understand that I cannot allow that to happen."

Then leave it. If you find out that she has, then you go to your attorney and have him be the bad guy. Have him send your wife the letter with the "threats." Dont let it come from you!

And once he does, and she screams at you...say it all together now folks: "Honey, I do marriage, I dont do divorce. If you want to talk about our marriage and our family, I am right here. If you want to talk about you being in adultery and divorce, then you have my attorney's number."

You are going to have to learn a new way of thinking...a new way of dealing with this situation. Once you do, you will realize you have so MUCH MORE power this way, than with the way that comes natural.

MM is the best!

Thank You MM!

I needed that! I know my Plan A has been terrible to this point. I have done lots of reading this week. I know what I have to do now! I have to be the best dad I can be and look good to her. Be kind and nice and lots of praying.

Yes, all of those things. But a warning...many new BSs think they have to be FAKE. No need for that! If she is doing something that is hurting her...tell her. Another example on how the natural way works...and how you should do it:

Natural way: [while raising your voice] "You called him again last night. You are horrible. You dont deserve me or our kids..." blah, blah, blah.

Right way: [stated calmly, but with the feelings you have] "You calling the OM hurts me, and you know it. I do not understand why you continue to want to hurt me and our family. I would appreciate that you not carry on your affair in front of me and the kids. It is painful to all of us. And it isnt fair."

See the difference? And once you say it, then get off of it. The point has been made. She may come back and say 'well, you hurt me, blah, blah, blah." Dont get lured into those kind of tit-for-tat arguments with a wayward. You cannot win an argument with the insane.

Instead, state facts and let the facts work their way through the fog. Deep down, she knows you are right.

Hey Pep!

Can someone explain this?

She got my shop vac a couple days ago. She just showed up unannounced and asked if she could clean her vehicle over here. She is in the garage right now. She's in a really good mood also.

I hope this is a good thing because it makes me happy.

She is cake eating and it is your time to Plan A like a rock star.

I just find it kind of odd she came over. She told me middle of last week she hated me and wants a divorce right now. Since that day I have been nothing but nice and inviting to her.

It's because she is insane at the moment and following her feelings ... since her HIGH is fluctuating ... somedays she is a horrible mess and somedays she is normal.

It will never make sense to us betrayed spouses because we aren't waywards.

That is why you Plan A with no expectations ... NEVER EVER LISTEN to her when she spouts off venom ... understand she is not in her right mind and should be treated accordingly.

Waywards need their betrayed spouse to be okay with everything. She is looking at you for not only her needs to be met, but also for her to not feel so guilty ... This goes hand in hand with divorce.

Waywards all have the fantasy that you will be friends forever and the children will just love the new adultery partner.

This is why Plan A is always followed by Plan B ... you show the wayward what life as married and if they still refuse to end the adultery then you cut them off completely:

1)To heal yourself and give them a path back to the marriage
2)(and/or) Show the wayward you will not be friends after the divorce and the wayward will be as good as dead to you.

Your EXPOSURE put a nail in her adultery. She is fence sitting and cake eating. Her emotions fluctuate hourly ... your job is to remain cool and sane.

Plan A with no expectations ... show her the kind of husband you are and will be if she commits to recovery.

The wife and just talked a long time. It started off about the kids. Then went on to her telling me she is happy now and has moved on. She wants me to do the same so we can have a nice easy divorce soon and still be friends.

#�#^�{~' this crap is driving me crazy!!!

How did you respond to her?

We talked nice the entire time. I told her I haven't moved on with my life yet and still can't file for divorce. I told her I'm slowly getting over it and trying to be happy in life.

Is this a normal response from a WW?

Normal for sure.

Next time she says she is happy and has moved on, calmly mention that if she changes her mind, you are willing to build something wonderful with her. Then, change the subject.

It's still way to soon for a reply like that!

Crazy - this is where you begin to realize how fogged out she is ...

She is willing and intentionally giving your children a motherless home ... repeat!

Your Plan A needs to be spectacular ... show her what she is missing.

She is willing and intentionally giving your children a motherless home ... repeat!

I understand 100%! I've had her so ticked off a few times the last 30 days it's unreal. I need to let that dust storm settle before I go that route. I will but I want to do a nice Plan A. For 2-3 more weeks without any setbacks before I try that approach. Right now she wouldn't listen to any of it.

She is totally focused on him right now! The new needs to wear off of him awhile. I'm still looking my best and improving myself. Each day this seems to get just a bit easier. Trust me still a few bad days here and there though.

You really need to listen.

Plan A is showing her how attractive you are.

Confidence and sureness of your future = attractive.

"please reconsider, I need you... etc., etc." = weak
weak = not attractive

you will not talk her into anything or plead or reason her into anything.

Her at least think that you are not falling apart or dependent on her love will be at least intriguing to her. Her thinking that she does not have power over you is vital.

This is the perfect time for that response.

Ok I'll do it next time it comes up! I know it bothers her to death if she thinks I'm going out. Last weekend she came to get the kids and I had a pair of jeans on my bed. The pockets were still wet is the only reason they were there. I know it bothered he a bunch.

Me and a few buddies are leaving the weekend of the 16th to a gambling town in Colorado. My 13 year old refuses to stay at her house. I plan to take him to her brothers house. I think it's going to drive her nuts that I'm leaving to have fun. It's going to kill her that her own son won't be with her.

If I'm not falling apart and having a terrible time wouldn't I just give her the divorce she wants now?

Trust me each day is getting easier, now that I've accepted what's happening to my life!

Just be very careful with that kind of "making her jealous" game. I think waywards are supersensible towards such activities because they are desperately looking for justifications for their own cheating. And believe me, you don't want to give her any.

Stay away from women during your trip, you are very vulnerable!

I'm not going to make her jealous. I'm going to have fun and get away from some of this stress.

Trust me a woman is the last thing I need right now!

I say gambling with buddies while your house is on fire might not be your best option.

Your son needs you more than life ... it is best to give children even more love and care.

Once the flames are put out and your are rebuilding your home, then you can gamble with your buddies.

This very true I don't need this trip. The 2 of us can go somewhere for the weekend.

I know for a fact OM is spending the nights at her house now! Can I legally stop him from being there when my kids are at her house??? I told her I don't want him around my kids, she said it's my house and you have no say in what happens at my house.

Yes - get your lawyer involved to put a paramour clause in visitation. You can protect your kids from this.

I have a few questions before I call my lawyer.

I've done some reading and it looks like that clause is about a waste from what I've seen looking it up. It states no overnight visits. Children cannot see marital things going on with non marital partner.

Will this ruin Plan A?

Will doing this just tick her off and want a divorce right now?

What would all of you do?

It is a stick part of plan A. Get it done now! It will blow up the affair fantasy, you CAN control when they can hook up, it will blow their addled minds. It will force your wife, on a regular basis, to choose between her child and her AP. The AP won't like losing so often. Conflict ensues.

When they are wayward they are dangerous ... very very dangerous.

Your first job

1) Protect kids at all costs
2) Plan A (Carrot/Stick)
3) Plan B

Protect your children from OM because OM are more often than not dangerous low lifes with no values/morals/character.

If I could, I would always try to keep the children away from the OP.

You must do what is right, always. You are fighting to keep your family intact. To do that, the affair needs to go buh-bye. So, you throw bombs at it. But, you do so because it is also the right thing.

Plan A with NO EXPECTATIONS.

Could this push your WW to get a D quicker? Sure. It could also cause her to burp.It doesn't matter what her reaction will be, it's the right thing to do, so do your best to get it done.

Zero morals/morals or character in that house right now! This entire thing blows my mind! I can't believe she has lost it this bad!

Very typical wayward behaviour sadly.

Speaking of OM and their low morals, is there any way you could hire a PI to find out info on him? It is possible that there are some skeletons that you could use to ensure he stays away from your children at all times.

His dad is in prison for child porn for probably another 6 years. His uncle got kicked out of town several years ago for dealing drugs. His brother is a freak and everyone in town knows it. His sister just moved out of same house mom/ grandma/him and left 2 of her 3 kids there. I know for a fact he used to do drugs.

Normal WW response to get you to roll over promising to be your friend. Also to get a divorce from you without her having to pay much money. With money being tight you force the OM to fail her need for financial assistance. This has to make WW think I'm putting out for the OM and he won't help me to be free to marry me. Wait why doesn't OM want me to be free. Wait maybe OM just wants to use me.



Your response is not normal for a BH doing MB.

Simple to the point: I don't talk divorce. Talk divorce to my lawyer. I have no interest in being and will not be your friend if a divorce goes through.

This guy is great at complaining but not much at doing:

Example:

MB Vet: Have your lawyer fight to prevent the OM having contact with OM when they stay with WW.

Given motivation from MB Vet: Having WW chose kids over OM will make OM mad, maybe mad enough to dump WW because he is always losing to her kids.

From sHEScrazy: It usually doesn't work so I won't bother to fight the affair on this.

sHEScrazy is such an expert at picking and chosing.

I'm still learning all of this! Now that I'm accepting what's happening it's getting easier!

I just made an appointment for a meeting with my lawyer at 9;30 Friday!

The secretary wasn't sure if we could stop OM from being around my kids but was sure I could get temporary custody!

I've been lining things up all morning. I work 4 ten hour days per week, so I leave for work before kids are up. I've got family lined up to help with youngest in the mornings. Daycare is ready if I need it.

Am I forgetting anything?

I've been thinking and when the lawyer does whatever he can do to keep my kids from being around him. She is going to flip out!!! I just hope she chooses her kids over him.

Don't I have to goto court to get temporary custody?

When she flips out, I'm sure that's when tons of lies will start flying. I'm sure she will run me into the ground anyway she can.

What kind of stuff can I expect so I'm ready for what she has to dish out?

You should go ahead and buy a VAR now. We advise lots of BHs to do this because abuse allegations are common from WWs. However I would check out the laws regarding recording in your state/area first.

Practice not reacting. Be like stone. Unless and until you go into a proper plan B, avoid discussing anything that could possibly get heated. Practice, also, changing the subject. She may call you up railing about how controlling you are and how that is what ruined the marriage; practice responding with something like, "yes, I have control over what I do and fighting for our marriage is what I am doing now. I got a bill from doctor whatsit's office for little bobby's visit last week, I can go ahead and pay that unless you were already planning to take care of it."

Search for reverse fog babble on this site, it will help prepare you for the inevitable onslaught of babble.

Thank God somebody said it (nice job, TheRoad!).

ShesCrazy....look, you are going to need to get this very quickly if you have ANY chance of saving your marriage and family. Ready?

First, your responses the last two days are NOT MB responses and actually HELP her do what she is doing. How?

You talk to her about how you are not moving on YET but you are working on it. Or something like that. Why would you say things like this? To her its "Okay, he isnt quite where I am...but he is getting there. So, eventually, he'll be where I am at, we can end this nice and clean and we'll be the best of friends as we raise our children."

Bllleeeeecccchhh!!!

You keep giving her the impression that you are going to assist her in this...and you might as well file tomorrow.

Dude, you are going to need to get a grasp on this fast.

TheRoad stated it well. "Honey, I am not getting a divorce. I am not filing. I am here taking care of our family...all of it (which includes you). I will do whatever it takes to protect this family, even from your actions. You of course are free to seek divorce anytime you wish. But understand we will not be friends in divorce. As a matter of fact, we will not even talk in divorce. Once divorced, we will never talk again. Your expectations are very skewed. The family does not want what you are doing and where you are taking us. None of us...me, our kids, want this. So, we will continue to function as a family and awat your return."

And then, you go out, you get your attorney to do what he can to keep your kids away from the OP. In Virginia, having the paramour around the kids is a HUGE no-no. I dont know what state you are in, but you need your attorney to do what he needs to.

I won in court twice against my wife...and we still recovered. But that is because I defended my family. I put my foot down and said "you may destroy yourself, but you will not destroy the rest of us." And I kept the family together and functioning until she was able to have her cranial-rectal extraction.

You are in a dangerous time right now. Getting this right is paramount.

thank me?

mortarman, you said it so much better, so thank you.

The Road put itall in perfect perspective today! I thank you for that! MortorMan you have given great advise also and thank you!

Normally I am a "Rock" nothing phases me. This decision of hers hit me like a BOMB! I was working 7 days a week at the time with 4 different crews of union labor plus keeping a night shift in schedule. It's tough running 45-50 guys. I have to do my job, I can't support my family without it. I never got to grasp what was going on in my life until the last few days when the rush was over.

Now I think I'm finally back to ME! Happy and joking around my kids! It has taken me awhile but I'm back! I'm ready to fight and win! I'm going to hold these kids tight and keep them happy!

I'm not sure what's going to happen Friday at the lawyer but I'm going to do whatever he says is best! I'm going to embrace the hell I will receive from my actions! I'm not buying a var, I've never hit my wife and not starting now. She can't make stuff like that stick. I'm dealing with facts his family is a 100% mess and I don't want my kids around him! She moved out and totally rocked this family, I plan on getting it back to better then before! If I can't have better then it was I don't want it!

I live in Kansas and I searched paramour a bunch today and nothing great came up in the search. The lawyer I have is awesome and family. Most in this area want him in times like this! I have the money to get nasty with a lawyer and drag this out as long as need be! She don't!

She will know if she wants divorce now everything is mine kids, my retirement, 401k, house, boat, jet skis, camper, atv's. What she already took is what she can have!

She started a WAR she can't win!

shescrazy--

You would be surprised at what a WW can get away with. She CAN'T make it stick but she can ruin things for a short period. Please buy a VAR, for your own good.

If she does that crap she can have her divorce now! On my terms and she gets nothing! I was raised in this town everyone knows me and my family! Everyone knows we are good people! She is the outsider and realizes that now that she has zero friends!

That doesn't mean she WON'T try something. You really have to be on your guard.

I got a nasty phone call already this morning. Wife is coming to my house everyday and getting my 4 year old. My 13 year old boy was rude to her. So I got a butt chewing call.

I've told my boy he needs to do what his heart tells him, not what he thinks I want. He won't have anything to do with her right now!

My wife went through this same thing with her dad when she was a kid. She still hates her dad.

My responses to my wife were you still hate your dad and haven't spoke in years. Maybe our son feels the same. I told her that was the consequences b
Of what she has done, not me. I said you moved out and caused this now your paying. I also said someday our daughter will be old enough to figure out what you've done and probably get a hatred for you also. I told her before she blames me for everything she needs to realize the hell she caused not any of us.

Very true.



It don't matter where you grew up down or side ways. All you need is a judge that is more concerned with being pro wife then with being pro right.

I say, this boy, I say, this boy must be too short, I say, everything posted here goes right over this boy's head, I say that is. (in my best foghorn leghorn accent).

I will get a VAR ASAP!

I recommend not teaching your son to "follow his heart" because that is part of the lowering the boundaries that leads to affairs.

I would simply say to your son, "Son it is okay not to speak to mommy. It is not disrespectful or rude to simply say to her ... I will only speak to you when you leave the OM for life. If you feel angry and want to yell or lash out then take your pillow and bang it against the door frame. Then return to the conversation and simply state your position on why you will not speak to your mother."

The above is not PLAN A ...

When you get nasty phone calls ... simply state ... "I apologize our son is upset. I am doing all I can to comfort him ... would you like to come over to dinner? Off to the gym now ... Have a great day WW!!!"

She keeps accusing me of brain washing him into hating her. He is old enough he knows whats going on.

Stop engaging in these conversations. That is easy enough, right? Can you do that ONE thing? I guarantee you, if you stop engaging in them, they won't bother you anymore. Wanna know how I know that? Because they wil no longer happen, that's why! Knockit OFF.

I have so much to learn!! Thank you! I will get this!

I was reading the spying section. Someone mentioned using their phone. I've been testing out the recorder on my iPhone. It is super sensitive and very clear. I have it set up for quick activation now. She will never suspect anything with me having my phone out. Also very easy to send conversation to computer.

Would having a family meeting be a good idea? That way all of us could talk and get things in the open. I could inform her I will not get divorced! It will be hell if she files. Let my oldest talk and inform her it's either him or the OM.

No - Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A

DO NOT BRING UP THE DIVORCE
DO NOT BRING UP THE TROUBLES WITH YOUR SON

Your only job at this moment is to kill her with kindness, be the husband she fell in love with, and have no lovebusters.

Ok I won't do it!

I was just thinking that since her affair has gotten more involved and he is spending nights at her house, maybe it would make her think about loosing her son, family, friends, lifestyle.

Me going to a lawyer is going to be a huge nasty lovebuster! Especially if the lawyer can keep OM away from my kids.

What LB would that fall under?

It's going to make her furious and hate me more and drive her further away!

You still are not listening.

She could not be any farther away than she is now.

What you had or thought you had is over, gone forever.

All you can do now is make something new.

Get used to it, embrace it.

All you control is what you do. You do not control her in any way. Any attempt to manipulate her by meetings, guilt etc. will meet with ever more anger.

She is gone, she will only come back if she wants to. All you can do is make the affair difficult to continue.

Why would it make her furious, it is what she wants right?

I know, it doesn't make sense. But you taking control of your life and having a contingency without her, protect you and your kids, may wake her up.

Like you have been told before, there are no guarantees. All you can do is work on yourself and live the way you should. The rest is up to her.

I think it is a common trap BS's fall into, thinking since they finally come across a plan that is well laid out and proven then the result they want is assured. There is more than one path events can take, but we only see one.

All you can do is walk the path for you and make it easier and desirable for her to join you. If she does or not, that is nothing you can control.

Seeing a lawyer is not a love buster.

It is protecting yourself and your children.

A love buster would be seeing one and talking about it with her and using it to manipulate her to behave like a 'good' girl.

You can not educate or manipulate waywards. You can only be your best you and not enable her to further her fantasy romance with someone else by being an angry man or a man who takes anything that comes his way with no consequences to her.

ShesCrazy....look, I dont know if you have read Dr. Harley's books or not. But you need to grasp the concepts to be able to do this. Love bank. Love units. Love busters. These things are very specific.

Getting a lawyer to protect the family is NOT a love buster, as stated above. When done in a deliberate way, the WS actually gains some mode of respect for the BS.

But, do you remember me saying something about steadying your hand on the rudder of the ship that is your family? Having your attorney protect boundaries is a proper thing. Threatening your wife with divorce, taking the kids, etc is not. You protect, you dont attack. Please understand the difference.

When you attack, she goes into protect mode. And there is no way she will put down her guard in that environment.

Look, if you have read everything from MB, everything here, then you know all of the possible outcomes here. And you will know how to recognize them when they happen. She hasnt a clue what she is doing, and where things are going or what possibilities are there.

You must be the Rock. You must be consistent. when she sees a letter from your lawyer, she will lash out. But your response of "I dont do divorce, I do our family..." will disarm her. She will be confused. "His lawyer is fighting me, but he is saying he loves me and is trying to save the marriage. That doesnt make sense to me."

To get thru the fog, you need to say the same things over and over and over. stay on message. If she says "I hate the color blue..." your response is "I love you and I want our family to heal and all of us to move forward together." LOL. Okay, that was silly, but I think you understand. STAY ON MESSAGE!

Reading, Mortarman, MMMHerb, prayinsenently and everyone else that has replied, thank you so much!

I have read these last few pages several times. It all makes so much sence. I'm such a hands on guy and can fix anything. Now I have to learn an entire new way of thinking and learn it fast!!! I've made a small list of directions/facts you guys have posted and stuck it in my wallet. I will read it several times per day until I make these changes habit.

Yes I have bought a few of Dr Harleys books. Love Buster, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, his needs her needs. I have read any in entirety but have read a few chapters from each. I've also read tons of articles on website.

I also know I'm a high speed person. This is a "Slow Ride". I'm wanting results now and it's going to take a few months. Yesterday afternoon we sent a couple texts back and forth about preschool stuff for our youngest. Right at the end I asked if she'd like to come over for dinner and a movie for our weekly movie night. I never got a reply. It hurts but I accept it! I guess I just keep asking?

I know this war between her and my 13 year old is killing her. She thinks I'm making him hate her, well I'm not, he's old enough to know what's going on. She is afraid she's going to lose his love forever.

The reality is he will loss his love for her. She is intentionally and cruelly giving them a motherless home. There isn't much admiration or ability to love that action. He may even grow to hate her ... this is why a firm understanding of Lovebusters and being accountable for ones own reactions is crucial to your parenting today. Teach him even though mommy is doing the most cruel and abusive action to your family ...you don't have to get angry ... you don't have to disrespect ... you don't have to have a negative reaction to it. Simply disengage and remove the abuse from your life. That is why if he wants to do no contact then support him ... if he wants to try and talk with her then you support him ... let your son find his boundaries ... let him engage her in a healthy manner. He can say something as simple as "Mom, your relationship with OM is too painful and cruel. I cannot be in your life until it ends. My hurt is too much and I will not take that abuse from you."

This is why you have to be both mother and father at this moment. He is being shaped to have a very bad reaction to your WW ... i.e. he will likely choose a woman of her caliber (as she is today I mean) if he doesn't learn how to react in a healthy way to her abuse ... that is why going away with the guys or doing anything else that removes you from your children's lives right now is dangerous.

They need you to be their rock. That means you are there for them every moment of everyday until the waves are calm and you can see more than 20 feet in front of you.

Your goal is to teach your children about emotional needs, how they work, how lovebusters are never good in any relationship. Your son's emotional needs are dramatically shifting because his mom is now the abandoner ... teach him about healthy boundaries (i.e. we don't follow our feelings we follow logic) ... teach him about true affection ... about how not to do lovebusters ... that is your goal at this time.

Your WW will fall and where she falls cannot be your worry. Your worry is being the leader of your family ... the best darn man you can be ... the best darn father ... you only have time to lose now ... implement this today.

A few thoughts for you:

Family court is a unique place. It tends to be mom friendly and difficult for dads. Filing first gives you an advantage to a degree but if your focus is on punishing her then it will come out and you will lose, no matter how good a lawyer you have.

Your lawyer is not what will win you your case. YOU are what will win you your case. You will be judged in every way and in how you carry yourself. Being calm and wearing a suit is good. Being abrasive and emotional is not.

You need to make it clear to your WW that you will not be friends if there is a D.

File a motion to give you primary and force her to pay CS. File for abandonment since she�s the one who left.

Check with your lawyer first on the specifics, though. This may technically not be abandonment.

Get a VAR and prepare yourself for false allegations of abuse. They�re coming. It�s a standard tactic.

But remove your overconfidence about family court. Fear it and treat it with the utmost respect because it will bite you in the a## as a man if you don�t play it right.

She just called me and asked to get the divorce done now.

I told her I wasn't filing for divorce! I said I do marriage and fight to keep our family kids happy under one roof. She started going off, right in the middle I said have you noticed the pot hole in your street. It totally through her off.

She says its over she does not love me will never love me again and she will never move back in with me. I know her so well and she is so stubborn once she sets her mind to something she doesn't change.

Yes I think court could get nasty! I hate the thought that I could be an everyother weekend dad only. When I think about that stuff it makes me want to get the easy divorce and agree on everything so I don't have to do a nasty battle in court! I know women are favored in court. It scares me to death to think about that stuff. In some ways I wonder if I should just get it over with and if it's meant to be we might get back together someday. I know 2 couples who got divorced and now back together and totally happy

Perfect !

Check out the laws in your state for using a VAR.
If it's not illegal, carry one in your pocket.
If it's legal but not admissible in court, carry a VAR in your pocket.

How is your documentation going?
Have you read my thread titled "Document Document Document" ?

*** LINK *** to thread

If you want a divorce, get one.
If you roll over and expose your belly because you are too scared to fight for what you want, your chances of a happy future/reconciliation with WW are very dim indeed.

Think about what skill sets YOU need to bring to any future POJA-based marriage with a future wife.

Learn now how to stand for what you know is right. Even when it's difficult.

The "pot hole" comment also made her think I was watching her house at that moment.

Right now I don't want a divorce but the more I think about him and her in bed it bothers me. I don't know if I can ever get those images out of my head. So everyday that makes me wonder if I want to keep fighting.

I've known the OM most of my life. He comes from a screwed up family but I honestly think he is normal and never do anything to hurt my kids. No I don't want him around my kids but I probably wouldn't want any OM around my kids.

Yes I have every text, face book message from her and everyone else saved.

If we get divorced and goto to court nasty. She will probably bring up my old days. Fighting non stop, drinking, dui's, illuding arrest, anger issues. When I get to thinking about that it scares the hell out of me.

I need to write down all this stuff so I can ask my lawyer his opinions tomorrow.

What matters more in court is the current stuff, not things from years and years ago. It all depends on how far in the past those things are.

There�s also no such thing as an amicable divorce.

There is no rush. If she wants a divorce, she can file for it, but I advise you to file to have the kids returned to the home and make you primary custodian.

Family court favors the person who is prepared, which is most often the woman, but the gender bias can be overcome with good preparation.

All of that stuff was before we had kids.

I don't think I have a chance of being primary custodian of kids. Judges in this area always seem to give joint custody. I can't prove her unfit and I'm sure that's what would have to happen.

If I would get that done it would start the nastiest war ever!

Woo Ha! on your response to her divorce talk.

Think about this......why the rush to divorce?! What is in that for her? And, if she wants one ASAP....why doesn't she roll the ball? (Don't ask her these questions. Just keep them in mind as she expresses her craving for one).

Just protect your finances and the kids as best as you can.

100% of people on this board have those images. It will take thought control on your part to get it out of your mind.

I think about my WH and realize it is just sex ... it isn't intimate or sexual fulfillment. His whore doesn't get my husband, she gets a POS, a liar, cheater, cruel and abusive man today ... nope she doesn't have my husband.

Just like that OM doesn't have your wife ... he has a whore who is a liar cheater and cruel and abusive woman. They will never have true intimacy ... they can't they are broken, lost souls who have nuke bombed their lives, family, and legacy.

Remember he never had your wife ... he will never have her ... he gets a shell of a woman ... that's it ... that's all it will ever be.

Fight like hell for your wife ... she can come home ... persevere through it all ... you can do this for your kids ... I know you can!!!

Shescrazy, I love the response about the pothole. Exactly how you were supposed to respond. Remember...do NOT get sucked in when she starts yelling and screaming. Dont listen to a "drunk." They have no idea what they are saying. Not a clue.

All these things about my wife being stubborn, etc...I said also. And ten years later, we are still married.

We went to court twice. Both times, I was given basic control over the kids, even though we had joint custody. As was said above, you do have an uphill battle. But it is doable.

Remember, your WW is fogged out AND she is counting on her being a woman to get custody. This is to YOUR advantage!!!!! She wont do the things she needs to do in order to be ready for court. But you will.

First note about court: never trust your lawyer. He is there to litigate. He isnt going to go crazy on compiling evidence and facts. You will have to do that. I literally got EVERYTHING. I had a journal I wrote in EVERYDAY, and I left nothing out. I put in what the kids did, what I did. I kept track of expenditures on the kids, my wife. I tracked hours where the kids were with me, and with her. I put down interactions with her. EVERYTHING went into that log. And that will be HUGE in court. Pep's info above is perfect to get you the idea of what to do.

I also went to the daycare for my four year old and we subpoeaned the sign in/sign out logs for my son. And they showed that over that year, I had picked up the boy 98% of the time (1.5% my mother...and .5% my wife). Again, a huge thing showing who was engaged in their life day-to-day.

I took the kids to a counselor. I did it for two reasons. One to help them get through this. The second was again...the court sees that I am proactively engaged in taking care of them.

The VAR is crucial. If you read what happened to me, I actually got arrested! Luckily for me, my wife was so fogged out that she realized that if she went forward with the charges...that she would have to have the kids fulltime...and she didnt want that! So, she dropped them. But if I had been carrying a VAR, it is very easy to prove to the officer what happened!

Sign ALL notes, letters, etc dealing with the kids. The school needs a permission slip signed...YOU sign it! The little one needs to go for a check up at the dentist...YOU take him. At this point, let her be derelict in her duties as a mother. It will only help you.

Now, when you do something like take the boy to the dentist, make sure you provide a copy to her of the results (so you can show that you are sharing information) and the bill. Because she is going to have to be responsible for this also! Log this into your journal: "Took little Johnny to dentist. Had one filling. Gave copy of dentist report and bill to WW when she came to pick up kids." Again, this shows that YOU are the responsible parent PLUS you are making sure she is included in their lives. Judges are keen on that...that not only is the parent that is the most active the one that probably will get the most time and control...but if that parent also makes sure the other is included...it is a slam dunk.

Another note: nothing but the clothes on their back and basic stuff leave the family home to go to her place. If the kids want to play Nintendo at Mommy's place, then Mommy needs to go buy one. The FAMILY Nintendo stays put!

Another thing, at this point, I would do all interactions with her outside of the home. She doesnt enter the family home until the affair has ended and she is legitimately trying to reconcile. Change the locks immediately so she does not have free run of the house. Otherwise, you may come home to an empty house. Ask to drop off and pick up the kids...that way there really isnt a reason for her to come over.

Now, I could post a lot more. But you should be getting the drift here. Now, how does this pair up with Plan A? Remember, dont do ANY of this with a conversation with her. Just do it. Everything bad that happens is your attorney's fault...okay? Remember the mantra! Do seek out times to do things together. "Honey, the kids want to go to Chucky Cheese. We are going tomorrow at 6pm. Wanna meet us there?" Plan A is NOT being a doormat. If she says YES, then go have a good time. If she says NO, then document it! Actually, document BOTH because again, the judge will see you as the active and sane parent.

On your 13 year old son. A little advice. First, you are correct that he is free to feel as he wants about his mom. He is also free to say he does not want to go over into the affair den. But do not feed this in him. Why? Because I can hear in your posts that he may be being disrespectful to your wife when he interacts with her. And that is NOT okay! You want to go a long way to cutting through the fog, AND making sure the court knows you are the best parent for the job. Then, invite your wife to meet with your son and you at a restaurant. Sit down....eat...and then, in front of your wife, tell your son this: "Sammy, look...I know you do not like what is going on now. And it is perfectly acceptable to have the feelings you do. And you are free to express them to your mom or I. But, I want you to know that I will not allow you to be disrespectful to her. You will treat her as your mother. Do you understand?" This will help your son understand that even though that it is WWIII between your wife and you...that he doesnt get to check out of being the boy he was raised to be. Added to this, your wife will be disarmed. She wont expect this, because as she told you, she thinks you are poisoning him against her. It will definitely confuse her (but deep down, it will be a HUGE love deposit in her bank, whether she actively knows it or not!). And, make sure you document the interaction...as again, in court, she cant say you are poisoning the boy!

Once you get home, you further explain to him your thoughts on this. Why? Because that conversation at the restaurant may cause him to feel that you are turning against him. Just remind him later that you love him, that you do understand his feelings and are there for him. But he needs to know that there just are some boundaries that he cannot cross.

Again, I could go on and on. And this race is a marathon, not a sprint. So there is more time for discussion. But at this point, do all of the work above in preparation for a fight. In the meantime, look for every opportunity to Plan A her.

Her theory is she has moved on and ready to be done.
What's in it for her? Closure maybe, be with her new man without guilt?
She can't afford a war divorce.
She won't file because I told her it would be war and we can never be friends.
I've made myself and her miseable for 6 weeks now.
This is tearing up my daughter terribly, teachers are asking her kids are asking her, she is miserable.

If I don't do it soon she will!

I'm thinking maybe I should be the first to file and tell my lawyer I want it drug out to give me extra time. Maybe by then I could make Plan A work.

I don't know what to do and this is just tearing me up. I'm loosing it in every aspect of my life. It's affecting my job severly. I cant enjoy my kids because this is all i think about. My mind and body are failing, I'm only sleeping a few hours every night and not in a row. I don't think I'm any better to speak of then
the day she told me. I need to find some piece in my life soon! I'm tired of crying!

First to file will not help. But it will hurt, because you will be giving her what she is asking for. First to file will not help your daughter. Filing is ending the marriage, not trying to save it. Your message of trying to save the marriage, and at the same time filing...is not the same message.

You appear to be overly concerned about what your WW wants and thinks. Who cares? A little clue: what your WIFE wants and thinks should be of utmost importance to you. What you WAYWARD WIFE thinks and wants shouldnt even cross your mind. You are the husband, father...man of the house. You want to protect and save this family? Then guess what? This is gonna suck for YOU for awhile. You might has well understand that. As I posted to you the other day, your kids, and even your wife, are counting on you to be the sane one. So, stop listening to the insane?

I know it hurts. If it is too much, see the doctor and get some anti-depressants. Take time out every week to talk to your pastor. Come here. Cry your eyes out when no one is around. And then, wipe them off...grab the big boy pants...put them on, and begin again.

We understand! I HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE AT! I have hadthe same feelings. I am not discounting them. And you should be having them, otherwise, I would be worried about YOU.

But you must detach your feelings from your brain. You can feel. But those feelings should never override your logic. Understand? If you are feeling down, tell yourself: Okay, I am going to give myself an hour. And then go someplace, and let it all out. Then, at the end of the hour, get back to business. If a couple hours later, you need another break, then take it.

One thing Steve Harley told me is that as you move forward, all of this will get smaller in the rear view mirror. You are in the valley...but as long as you continue to move forward, you will eventually exist it.

Make up your mind. No one will admonish you for divorcing her and quitting. You have every right. Even God will hold you blameless. But remember, that YOUR actions will also set ALL of your destinies. You, your wife, your kids.

I remember going through recovery. And our first anniversary after we started recovery, I remember my wife saying "Wow, we have been married 15 years." And I thought to myself (and wanted to say to her but didnt): "I have been married 15 years. You have been married 9."

Are you ready to quit? Do what I said...go tonight while you kids are asleep, sit and look at them...and then make the decision. And do that every night until either you get the answer you are ready to quit...or your wife returns.

Only one person can be the man in your house.

SC, I told myself from the very beginning that I would never file for D. I did not want it, and if she wanted it bad enough, then she would have to do it. I did not want that on my conscious for the rest of my life. To know that I gave up on my kids, my family. I wanted her to have that one her head for the rest of her years. She wanted it bad enough, let her do it!

My wife never came right out and said she wanted a divorce for almost 5 months after D-Day. She would 'hint' by telling me to move on or accept that it's over, but never mentioned the D word. Then one day about a week before Christmas, she was fuming because my BILs wanted me to spend Christmas with their families. My wife was livid! She even chewed out her brothers! At that time she sent me a text saying that she was going to wait until after Christmas, but now we should get the divorce started. This startled me since she never mentioned the word before, yet at the same time I knew she was extremely pissed off. So I just ignored her text, didn't respond back, and never brought it up. Guess what? She never mentioned divorce again.

About 3-4 weeks later she made a comment to me about me being her 'soon to be ex-husband', which I ignored. Guess what? She said that to me when she was AGAIN extremely pissed off because my BIL invited me up north to go ice fishing. And she never mentioned it again.

SC, the reason I'm telling you this from personal experience is that my wife only brought up anything related to divorce when she was VERY upset. But at the time they were just empty words she said in her fit of rage. I ignored her, and it didn't come up again. So you may just want to be patient with your wife, perhaps even withdraw from contact with her for several days, heck even a week. See how she reacts to that. It will tell you alot. Your wife didn't explode and file for D after you exposed her as mine did, so I would suggest just stepping back away from all the fogbabble, take a little hiatus from her, don't get back to her should she contact you (unless it's to do with the kids and it's important. If it's just to use the kids as an excuse to make idle talk, ignore it), and just see what her reaction is. Creates a little mystery to make her think.

You'll want to follow the MB concepts and plans, but at the same time I've found there are so many dynamics and gray areas, and that a lot of this is mental games that are played. To me, my wife plays these games unknowingly. She's playing these mindgames based on emotions because of the state of mind she's in. I'm not real good at this yet, but I've found that if you can play mindgames based on LOGIC, it throws them in a tailspin.

I had always been patient and kind towards her throughout all this. However, she was always defiant, telling me to move on, almost laughing at me because I didn't get it. It didn't bother me, because I was actually laughing back thinking you caused the problems, yet you will not move on. So I figured if she was really serious about a divorce she would have filed.

My wife did file however, 3 days after I exposed her via Facebook. I know she did this in an extreme fit of anger and as a way to 'slap me back down' and gain control over me. But to me it didn't matter. Some small switch inside me flipped the day I was served. A part of the man that I once was awakened at that time and said if she wanted a divorce that bad, let her have it. I would still continue to love her, Plan A wherever possible, yet I also was going to give her a taste of what life would be like without me. This was not to get back at her, but as a way for me to keep my sanity and preserve any love I had left for her. This is where I'm at now. I may or may not answer any texts that she sends me, if it's not important to the kids. She doesn't text very often, but every time she does and I don't get back to her, she gets PISSED. Is this good? Maybe, maybe not. But it lets her know that I'm not going to be there in the future for every little thing she asks me. If this doesn't mean anything to her, then maybe she is better off on her own. I'm doing just fine on my own with the kids, and I'm relaying that to her!

One thing I tell myself often is I didn't lose her, she lost ME! She chose some POSOM who couldn't hold his own marriage together and chooses to be with a married woman and influence the destruction of her family. What kind of man is that? One way down the evolutionary ladder from me, that's for sure. They say that WS's almost always 'affair down', that's what mine did.

I've got lots of information saved off from this forum that I reference a lot. Here is a snippet from something posted by NewCreation2011:

To the BS out there who may read this, I can only hope that knowing that your spouse is not going to be happy and their AP is not going to be happy helps you feel a little bit vindicated. I promise you that even if they look like the picture of happiness on the outside they are not. They have a cancer eating their souls. You can have a better life. They won�t.

This makes me feel good because I know that no matter what happens, I can say I fought for our marriage and can go forth in life with my head held high. My wife will not be able to do the same.

Oh, and as far as any mind movies of your W and POSOM, just switch to something else. I'm not seriously concerned about this unless she decides to come back to me. And even then they won't matter because I know she will have chosen to come back to ME, and she is with no one else. I was with her for 26 years, a mountain of time compared to POSOM. And if it really does bother you, then you can always remember that supposedly the human body replaces all cells every 7 years. So at some point there won't even be anything left that was in contact with the POSOM.

So SC, don't be hard on yourself. You're the better man here! We're all in the same boat - you're not going through this alone.

Awesome info guys!

I need to stop playing the head games with myself. What if she gets pregnant? What if she gets a DUI partying? What if she catches an STD? What if she files? What if she moves with my kids? What if she won't let me see the kids?

I need to stop that crap! I'm punishing myself!!! I don't need that extra crap on my shoulders right now! I need to decide SO WHAT if it happens! I don't care she already left me! It's not me that has to pay for it! She has to live with herself! I KNOW for fact she is not happy on the inside, she cries all the time!

SC I just want to reiterate her asking for a divorce from you several times in your marriage was her way of letting you know you were not meeting her needs.

The goal is to take that information and meet her needs at this moment. Don't focus on "a little too late" venom out of her mouth. You are the best choice ... now is the time to up the Plan A and kick some serious adultery butt.

What attracted her to you? Become that man ... become what she wanted in you when you first married.

SC - this is the level of grace your as leader of you family will work become. This is personal recovery. Taking the hurt, anger, resentment, cruelty, and venom and molding them to your forgiveness. This will only happen in recovery. If she does divorce, then you Plan B her butt for ever.

Understand if you are to ever have a great relationship with any other woman ... you will need to again become that man who leads by Grace. It won't make sense right now ... with time and personal recovery you will begin to come to this point.

The idea of MB is we are responsible for our own actions. No matter how low, cruel, and abusive the wayward becomes ... we betrayed have to hold our heads, integrity, and character at a higher level. It is the only way to go forth ... live life with Grace ... don't let her cruelty beat you down. Show your children how to really love a woman (warts/adultery/and All)

Dude, that stuff all crossed my mind too. In a weird way I wished something like that would happen so that she would hit rock bottom. I didn't want anything bad to happen, just wake her up. But I don't worry about that anymore, doesn't do any good and what's gonna happen on her side is gonna happen. Like everybody says here, you can only focus on yourself and your kids. You can't (and shouldn't) control her. She has to learn her own mistakes. That's the attitude I'm taking. I'm here for her, she knows that. If she lets the divorce go through, then I will no longer be there for her.

SC, just letting it go and being the best dad and person I can be has done wonders for me. I haven't even tried to change, I'm just reverting back to the nice, laid back guy I was when I met my wife. That's the way I was and it feels great now. I've had other women tell me that I'm charming and nice, and that some nice girl is going to snatch me up! And I'm not even trying, have no desire to. But it lets me know that I'll be just fine if it comes to that.

My wife knows me, she's known me for 26 years. That part of her is still buried in her. I will be courteous towards her and a gentleman. But I will no longer be her doormat.

Remember, you didn't lose her, she lost YOU!

Just a note SC, my wife already filed a couple weeks ago, yours hasn't. So while I've been giving you some advice and information, it's based on what I've been through so far. I'm a little bit ahead of you in this saga, so you can at least learn from what I've done (wrong & right), and maybe it will help you formulate a successful path forward. But for the stage you're in right now, I would listen to what the vets are telling you, and use my information to perhaps fill in some cracks.

I think I just screwed up but it felt GOOD!!!

I was in the shower and my wife came over with the younger 2 kids. She opened shower door and said we need to talk. I go into living room. Her and all 3 kids were in there. She started making demands about our 13 year old would come to her house on her week. She was demanding other stuff also but I don't remember it all. I finally got a chance to talk I asked all 3 kids if they wanted us to get a divorce, all said no. I then told her I wasn't filing for divorce. She got livid and started getting louder and making more demands. I finally told her to GET OUT of my house. Needless to say she left pissed off!

I don't have a problem with what you did. But a learning opportunity here...

Instead of saying "Get out of MY house..." how about saying "this is not going to in our home. When you can come here to engage as a family...as a part of the family, then you are welcome in the family home. Until then, you need to leave."

By the way, you saying you aren't doing divorce in front of your kids is HUGE! You just officially became their hero!!

ITA. HUGE.

It felt GOOD!!! I'm still on a high from it! Best I've felt since January 29th.

That's good! You have now had some success. And you will have more as time goes along. Of course, there will be setbacks. So just understand that this is gonna take time to work itself out...whatever way that is.

To summarize: In your kids' eyes, Dad is defending the family. Dad doesnt want divorce. Mom is running around like a crazy woman...and is flying off the handle every two seconds.

Which parent do they respect? Which parent is doing what they want? Which parent is looking out for them?

They KNOW this! And you just cemented that in their minds.

This is one of the reasons why you dont file. Because, at the end of it all, if it doesnt work out...your kids will still be able to say "my old man did it right." And they wont blame you!

I am of the mind that you might want to write a letter to her now, clarifying things. Not a Plan B letter...but just a letter that lets her know the lay of the land. Something that says:

"Honey, I wanted to write this so you understood where me and this family are right now. You and I started this family when we married. We expanded it with our great kids. All 5 of us are a part of this family. You have chosen to walk out on the family. But make no mistake, you are still a part of it. No one in the family but you wants what you are doing. You are the only one that wants this family to end.

So, because of this, the rest of us will continue on with the path that you and I set and our kids became a part of. We will continue to move all of us forward in the direction that is best for all of us.

Should you want to return to the family, the door is open. This is your family also. Your home. Your future.

But I wanted to say also that what happened the other night cannot happen again in our home or around our kids. They are going through enough with your absence without having to hear and see that. So, it is best that if you want to talk divorce, then speak with an attorney and have him contact my attorney. I will not be participating. But I cannot allow those discussions and the heated conversations in our home. I am trying to make the family home a safe place for our kids.

I love you, even with everything you are doing to me and to our family. We will continue to move forward, hoping that you will return to us."

Okay, do you notice a theme here? I keep talking about this as a family unit. That she isnt just walking out on you, she is also walking out on the kids. The family. I refer to the house you are in as the OFFICIAL and LEGITIMATE family home. And her place? That is where they go visit.

Be exact with your words. Your kids are roughly the same age as mine were when it happened. And I made sure to have them term the two places as this:

Your place: "Home"
Mom's place: "Mom's house"

When they were coming to my place, I had them say they were "headed home." When they went to their mom's, they were "visiting Mom at her place."

And once I had them doing this, then when they said it around her, it would bug the crap out of her because even the kids were saying that she was illegitimate!

She will fume over all of this. But they are not love busters. What you are doing is setting the boundaries. Your wife has left and things have been in a spin. This is you establishing order in the chaos. Now, even though you cannot force her back, you are enforcing these boundaries. And as the lsuggestion for a letter said above, you are making a safe place for the family. All of you!

The more she appears on the outside the better. Remember, you arent forcing her out of the family...she is choosing to leave it. Words are very important, so couch your words in that manner.

If you noticed, you are treating her almost as if she has died. On how the family will go on without her. Well, in a way, she has died. Your wife that you married NO LONGER exists. And she never will. Right now, you are dealing with a Wayward Wife that almost no one would want. So, you must protect the family from this stranger!

But, in Plan A, you are also trying to reach deep inside her to find the wife that still exists. She will be a new wife. Not the same as before. But quite possibly even better! You may not ever get to her. But that is what this is all about...a chance for that wife to come out, that mother to come out. To have time to escape the monster she is residing in. And again, she may not be able to escape. But right now, you dont know.

So, look for opportunities to Plan A. Send some flowers today, saying "I love you, miss you." That'll throw her for a loop after what happened at your house!! LOL

But at the same time, shore up your boundaries, protect them. And make sure you continue to get the kids on the pro-family team. Note: Dont do things to turn them away from her. Do things that turn them towards the family. There is a difference!

Excellent Mortarman advice. Again.

I'm going to add this to my carrot/stick thread. Thanks.

Lawyer Update:

I spent 1.5 hours with lawyer. He is my sisters father inlaw. We see each other at birthday parties and such and hunt together. He hadn't seen me in awhile now and didn't recognize me last night at my nieces birthday party. He said I've aged years and lost way to much weight.

I need to accept only half this situation. I've been taking blame for all of it. I need to realize she probably isn't coming back. Is me hanging on like this good for me or my kids?

I can NOT keep OM away from my kids.

He said me telling kids about affair has to stop NOW. The judges in this area will frown on that 100% and not treat me good about it.

He said there is no say on anything about our kids. If I want to take them on a trip to New York I can do it and not say anything and so can she.

With my oldest wanting to live with me full time. A judge hates to separate kids.

I should get residential CUSTODY since my oldest wants to live with me only and i would have more say about what happens with kids. If I file FIRST!

By me filing first I will be on the offense, that's a good thing.

Her affair will look horrible in judges eyes. That is a plus for me.

Now what should I do?

Find another lawyer. I don't know of any state in the US where one parent can't block the other parent from having overnight "guests" while the children are in the home. I have a friend who had that put on her, and they weren't even married. I believe the wording was something along the lines of "No overnight visitors of the opposite sex, excluding family, without the benefit of marriage." You should also be able to request that the children not be taken out-of-state without prior agreement of both parents in writing. IANAL. We have some on board, though, so hopefully they will chime in.

You are in Kansas ... there are laws on the books concerning paramours. I would seek another lawyer ... you need german shepherd going after a WW, especially in the court of law.

The kids know about mom's affair so you don't need to talk to them about it other than to support them going through this very difficult time and giving them a parent who is strong to lean on and vent to.
You also don't need to accept she isn't coming back. The lawyer is not the word on that.
You are not to blame for any of the affair. Yes, you were not a perfect husband and she was not a perfect wife. She owns this particular betrayel 100% though.
Call a couple other lawyers to inquire about the OM being around your kids. They should give free phone input (in hopes you might choose them for legal matters if you take some).

If your finances are safe and the kids are seeing you and WW, and you don't want a divorce.....why file for one? If you feel you must get more space from this legally, can you file for a legal separation?

I'm filing for divorce tomorrow! I have the paper work filled out.

I can't think of 5 reasons I want her back!
She is losing her mind more everyday.
She is choosing to be with him over my daughter.
My daughter is so heart broken over events her mom has done since Thursday.
I can never trust her again!
I was so sick of the drama she created in our lives. If there was no drama she created it. I've lost so many friends over the years standing by her, when I knew she was in the wrong.
I'm DONE, my no list is lots longer then my come back list.

By filing now I will be on the offense of the divorce. The way she is going right now, she will totally drive away her kids in a couple months. I've finally come to terms with all of this and I'm ready to be done.

That doesn't change my mind!

If I don't do this now and she decides to move she can with 2 of my kids. Once I file she can't leave.

Everyone in this town has turned on her and it's going to get lots worse for her. I need to be in charge of my kids and my destiny. I don't need her in her FOG deciding what happens with my kids! I have a feeling the way she is going right now I will have full custody of my kids within a short time.

This is the hardest decision I've ever made but it has to be done to protect my kids from anymore of her crap.

Your lawyer sounds reasonable and right on in terms of legal advice.

No, you can't stop her from having OM around the kids short of him showing himself to be a threat. The law varies on this from state to state and it could very well vary by lawyer.

If you have a lawyer that knows the courts, then take him. If he knows the judges and tendencies and what matters and what doesn't then take him.

Legal advice and MB advice isn't always compatible. It is nearly impossible to do a dark Plan B while in litigation. You will continue to get contact with the WW and will get communications via her attorney.

I find nothing wrong with taking the offensive legally. I think you can still make it clear that you don't want to go down this path but that your hand is forced based on the circumstances and her actions.

I'd rather err on the side of a dad protecting his rights and doing things smart legally than in playing defense.

I personally feel, and would like to know how SH feels on this matter, that an aggressive, non cowering BH who takes the offensive legally has a better chance of waking the WW out of her craziness than one who plays defense, especially if its combined with a Plan A. You can leave all legal talk to your lawyer while you focus on being cordial, attractive, and welcoming.

Just be careful of WW trickery. They are masters at making men screw up.

My lawyer is known as the best in this area for divorce. He's been doing it about 40 years. He knows all 3 of the judges and told me about them, I have a 1/3 chance of getting the crappy woman loving judge. He also said that judge hates a cheater so that is good.

Lawyer also said since the WW and I were getting along somewhat and we have decided what each was taking from the marriage he would talk with her also in a group meeting. I think this would be best. I don't want a long nasty drawn out court battle where I spend all my money. Get it done and get out and still have cash to put down on a new home. I'm already preapproved to buy a new home( ours has been forsale before any of this happened). She will get half of the equity after sale and she can go her own way. I've talked with my kids and told them they have a huge say and can pick out whatever house they like. That sure made them smile!

My daughter is starting to get so disgusted with WW and OM it's unreal. I think if it keeps up she won't want to goto WW house. When that happens my 4 year old can be at my house also. No judge is going to separate a 4 year old from his brother and sister. I have to keep being the stable rock and it will happen.

Although I understand the reasons you have for filing for divorce, you should consider:

1
You told your wife in front of all of your kids that you would not file for divorce and pull the family apart. They thought you were a hero because of it.
This means that they will feel betrayed and lied to if you file a few days after saying that. They will have trouble trusting you!

2
Your emotions will be going back and forth daily/hourly, this takes a toll on your decision making.

3
If you file for divorce yourself, you will often be able to influence how fast the divorce will go along. This may help you get the time to save your marriage for the sake of your family.

4
Your divorce lawyer earns money if you decide to file for divorce. So his recommendations are in that sense biased. Of course he tells you to go ahead and file. But you should know what your goal is and do everything to reach that goal.

As I understand, your goal has been to try to save your marriage and intact family. You have to have a plan here. Do not wallow back and forth between divorce and not. Make a plan and stick to it. And if you do decide to file, then you should better have a very very good reason for it and have explained that reason for your kids as you have been playing superman saving the family for their very eyes a few days ago! You cannot throw them under the bus like that. Your word is your word. I would say: stick to it.

I wish you a lot of wisdom in your decisionmaking and and God's blessings to your family,

Happyhart

I talked with my kids a bunch yesterday. The oldest 2 and I sat down with pen and paper and started writing out thoughts and reasons out. Kids have heard her numerous times say she hates me and is never coming back. She wants a divorce now! My daughter just wants it to be done with, either get along or get divorced. All kids are sad but understand that it has to be done. They are ready for something to change from the current roller coaster theyre on.

At this point with everything she has done, I don't think I could ever take her back. She is openly seeing him in this little town. He has pretty much moved in.

Ah - the small town mentality ... my small town was 3000 people in the middle of the middle West ... Where half the town are your relatives and you graduated with the same folk you started out in diapers with ... Yes I am very familiar with small town, the ratio goes something like this

3 churches: 2 bars (one usually a VFW or Legion): 1 Post office. If you blink while driving by you likely missed the town ...

Kansas they have great laws there ... I think it is time to bring out your old Wild West gear and run this OM off ... there are plenty of other divorced fish in your small little town he can sneak into bed with ...

I actually live very close to Dodge City! LOL

I couldn't file today! I don't have enough paper work filled out. I have another meeting with lawyer Friday at 9:00.

WW is now saying she is entitled to my retirement. We had everything decided from the ver beginning of this mess. Now she is entitled to stuff. I hope infedility trumps entitlement! Since talking with my daughter Saturday, I've suddenly started to grow a real hate for WW and OM! She is going more crazy everyday! I can't stand it anymore! I HOPE she gets pregnant by OM!

She probably IS entitled to your retirement.
She is your long time wife.

You need to calm down.

I understand what your saying! I know I need to settle down. Problem is I'm enjoying this part of it. Everyone said I would hit and angry stage. I've hit it and I like it! I feel no pain in this stage!

Someone is filling her head full of crap! She can take the boat, atv and half equity from the sale of house and everything thing else she took and I'll happily pay child support. That is what we agreed on. If she wants to get nasty I will create the longest drawn out divorce ever. I will eat up every penny she is going to get in lawyer fees. I've grown to hate her the last few days.

I filed for divorce, now she won't sign the paper. I know she has had plenty of time she has had days off. My lawyer said he would send the cops after her soon. I just dont under stand it!

Because you arent listening.
Because you are letting your feelings decide your actions, just as we warned you against doing.
Because she doesnt, deep down, want a divorce.

I told you early on that she is insane right now. All waywards are. And you continue to want to make sense of nonsense and to listen to an insane person and actually give credence and weight to their thoughts.

She is in a bad place. She is lost. Her, and your family, have counted on you to make sure her stupidity doesnt ruin everything for everyone. And it will if you get divorced.

Go do your research on children of divorce...no matter what age. It aint pretty!

Go look at the studies that show OVERWHELMINGLY, those that have divorced, 5 years afterwards, wish they had not been so hasty and had worked harder at staying in their marriage and making it work.

It wont be any different for you. Or your kids. Or your wife.

I know I am being harsh. And you certainly have EVERY right to kick her to the curb. No one can say you dont have that right.

But the road you are choosing is the easy one. At least early on. But the damage will continue, for everyone involved, for the rest of your lives. Your kids will be damaged, and will most likely pass this along in their marriages and to their kids...unless they are lucky enough to escape it through sheer will.

But you keep on what you are doing. Do you know how many folks have come back on here months and years later and said they had wish they had listened?

Crazy...I am not sure how we can help you.

She signed it all yesterday! I tried not filing for divorce. I just couldn't do it. With everything she has done I can't forgive her. I will get plenty of counseling for my kids and make the best of everything

What do you want, congratulations?

You had the right, and you did it your way. Good Luck.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. Give your kids and yourself a lot of time and self care.

Notice how sHEscrazy always ignores what does not fit into his plans.

Since you are the one who filed, you are in control of how fast or slow it goes. This just seems awefully fast to me and you haven't given yourself enough time to process what has happened or implement any MB plans. She is making ALL of her decisions based on her 'current' emotion, (subject to change at any time). Don't do the same thing. Even if Divorce is the final outcome, you have to be able to look at it a year from now and know you did all you could to save your family. You only get one shot at it.

My advice would be to have your lawyer hold the signed papers for a while. Make sure that this is YOUR decision based on logic and not emotion. But as a BS, I for one will support you whatever decision you make.

Man I love this post. I would never have got to where I am without the likes of Mortarman's example to guide me.

Without people like him I would have no idea what it means to be a proper husband and father.

Saving that and putting it on my mirror every morning.