Apparently he remarried. That's how good my post-divorce Plan B has been. I didn't know and no one told me, but I happened to trip over something today and there it was. They have a lovely picture on Google+.

Cannot tell you how stupid I feel. The joke's on me. But dear gods, this girl is stupid. Either she knew all about him and married him anyway, or she fell for a huge pack of lies and still doesn't know half of what's really going on.

It looks they got married in May 2009, less than *five months* after the divorce was final. What does that tell you?

I have to wonder if she knows that he owns a house with his ex-wife and has a joint checking account with his ex-wife, and that his ex-wife just signed the papers to get half his pension when he retires.

Strange - I remember telling my kids quite some time ago not to be surprised if he remarried. He likes having a family and only fired me because I refused to tolerate the girlfriends, both on-line and in real life. Either she believes his lies or is willing to look the other way. With me, the lies stopped working and I was not willing to tolerate the intruders. That's why he fired me.

(there is *no way* he's changed. No Way At All. He was still 100% wayward when he left, and they were obviously "dating" before the divorce was final. jeeeez . . . )

I'm in complete shock, but there's nothing I can do. The device has not yet been invented that can measure the amount of total stupidity going on here.

Holy schmolies Mulan! ::smacks forehead:: Of course you are stunned -- heck, I read your post mouth agape myself!



I'm really sorry. What an azz pickle he turned into!

(((((Mulan)))))

Mrs. W

((((( Mulan )))))

Hi mulan. I see your name around here a lot; you are a very respected member!

I know this sounds trite, but count your blessings he's somebody else's problem.

I'm sorry you had to see the photo. (((Mulan)))

Thanks, Letty. This is a great place and you will get help here you'll never find anywhere else. Hope things get better for you soon.

Sorry to hear that Mulan. We all know marriages based on lies will perish in due time. Don't beat your self up. Plan B was for you, not for him.

Wow Mulan! I'm sorry you had to find this out the way you. So you are still tied to him financially? Yikes! I could see that getting really messy if they ever divorce. Can you do anything to change that?

(((Mulan)))

(((Mulan)))

Sorry hun.

It does show the power of your Plan B that you only found this out now. That means that you are dark, and that is absolutely wonderful. It's too bad that you found out at all, but as PM stated, maybe now you have a head's up for things that could bite you in the butt later.

Yes, I thought of that last night. His name is still on the house because even after three tries, I have not been able to re-finance it - credit card debt is too high, though it's being paid off, and I can't show income in the form of alimony because he refused to send it to me directly and I take it out of the joint checking account that we had while we were married.

He refused to change that, too, and I wonder now if it was to hide that little fact from his new wifey. Take it from me - he was real, real good at hiding things, especially financial things.

Hi, guys, thanks so much for the responses.

Ever watch *The Sopranos*? It was EXACTLY like that, the way they depicted Tony and Carmella. Tony adored his family but it never, ever stopped him from chasing bimbos and he saw no reason why it should. The show even had Tony saying to Carmella some of the exact same things that I and a lot of other BS have heard. The only difference was that in the show, Carmella caved and just started looking the other way so as not to lose Tony and his money and real nice lifestyle. I could not do that, so I finally shut him down and he left - and he was remarried less than a year after walking out the door, which he did so he could finally enjoy being single!

His married employee girlfriend - the one who worked for him, the one he was seeing at the time he left and whose husband was going through suicidal depression at the same time I was - must have been devastated. This fool he married is *not* that one. I've never seen this one before. Hope it was worth it to the employee girlfriend, the one whose marriage XWH helped destroy. But I would imagine she'll just glom onto her next married boss, so it's all good.

After a while, I did notice that he had a pattern of getting a new girlfriend (while still trying his best to bribe me into being Carmella) about every 2-3 years. (checks watch). Their third anniversary will be next month. Wonder how it's going?

I'm sure the kids felt they were protecting me. I did make it very clear that I didn't want to know anything about what he was doing, and they knew how much that little detail would hurt. So it's really my own fault. I did apologize to my son for not being there for him to lean on while Daddy Dearest was getting married again, but he and his older sister did at least help each other out.

Daddy's new house is maybe 3-5 miles from here - though I don't think my son spends much time at all with Daddy and really hasn't since Daddy moved out. There seems to be an obligatory Sunday dinner from time to time, but that's about all. Guess now we know why!

Gee, I'm so glad XWH is happy because wouldn't it be shame to cause all this destruction if he wasn't?

Anybody know the stats on waywards and fast remarriages? I find that I'm rather fascinated by this. Don't know whether to laugh my [censored] off or throw up repeatedly.

<<Mulan>> At least you had some of his good years, the current wife just gets crumbs!

I hope you can get your house refinanced soon!

Hoping you are in a good place now.

ba (formerly nabohio)

Found this in the Plan A Plan B article.

"As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice."

Let's see:
Four months after the divorce was final, I adopted a second cat and was still struggling to get through a day.

Four months after the divorce was final, he gets married again.

At the time, there were some friends and family who didn't believe me about how far gone he really was. I'll bet they believe me now!

It would be like my worst nightmare coming alive ... I better start to prepare myself now. My WH has fallen off his rocker completely ... I could see him pulling a stunt like this.

***EDIT*** just suck .... God be with them!

(((Mulan)))

To add to what GJM posted in response to your Q about stats on affairs/waywards/remarriage, this is a thread on a radio show that you might find interesting where Dr Harley talks to "Kim" who is in an affairage and she and her now OM-H fight terribly:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2611256&page=1

PS - Have missed seeing you around here!

Hi Susie, thank you - will try to stop by a little more often and pass the savings on to the new customers!

I'm not even sure what XWH has now is an affairage - I don't think she knew him for long, though they must have been going out after he left and before the divorce - and even then - to marry some guy who is only four months from a very long marriage -

I have to wonder if she even knew how long he'd been divorced. Think she asked to see the divorce papers? I doubt it. I think he just wanted a replacement and thought he'd found one, after looking around outside of work for somebody who did not know his history and with whom he would have no mutual friends.

Stupid, stupid woman. And I thought I was stupid. Not even close to this.

Hey Mulan,

Could you drop by Jenniferislost thread? I believe you could share some valuable advice for her.

ba

Mulan,

As you were in Plan B. Do you wish you hadn't found out this news? Does it take you back?

I'm so sorry for your pain. I used to follow your posts. Glad you're back.

It IS good to see you again, Mulan.

You can do a great deal of good telling why a WS quitting their job is absolutely necessary in order to recover.

Though looking at your crazy XWH...I do believe he was never interested in recovery. Of a GOOD marriage anyway.

mulan, i don't understand the joint checking thing? why can't your lawyer take care of that? he shouldn't be allowed to skate on that issue.

Four months after the divorce was final, I adopted a second cat ... Four months after the divorce was final, he gets married again.

Friend, your second cat got a better deal than his second wife.

I have chuckled over this all day, thanks NG.

Mulan. I also just wanted to say thanks for giving the update. I have read your threads and admired you for your journey and growth.

Your update has resonated with me as it is what I am preparing to one day learn. My Plan B has had chinks in it. I have learned of an OC. I am not divorced yet. I fully expect once the divorce is final, WH will remarry shortly after. In the small town I live in, it is likely someone will eventually tell me of this. I fully intend to have Plan B'd so well that whilst it might hurt, I will be happy regardless.

Maybe its time I got a cat

Yes, you should. Get a Ragdoll cat, they are infamously lovable, I hear.

Thanks, all, for your responses. Yes, I do recommend cats as companions. They are very loyal and will not ever lie to you. It could be worse.

Well, let's see: I can only wonder if she knows that he was only divorced for four months when they married, and was almost certainly still married when they started "dating". Think she asked to see a copy of his divorce decree? Or did he just lie to her about how long he'd been single and she swallowed everything he said?

And if she *did* know, then she is completely nuts for marrying ANYONE who was barely out of his very long-term marriage and had obviously not had time to come to terms with it - was obviously just trying to run away from it. Everybody needs time to get their head on straight after a divorce. *Either way*, she is remarkably stupid.

I can only wonder if she knows he still has a joint checking account and joint home ownership with his ex-wife, and that until last year (when it was destroyed in an accident) he had joint ownership with me on my Saturn SUV. He refused to sign it over, even though that would have been very easy and he was specifically ordered to do this in the divorce HE wanted.

Having a fresh new wifey would, however, explain why he flatly refused to change this arrangement, even when I repeatedly sent letters to his lawyer insisting that he just pay me alimony directly and get his name off my car. The lawyer informed me that everything was fine as it was and nothing would be changed. That's insane to want to keep an arrangment like that with an ex-wife that you dumped and I could not understand it at all - until now.

It makes perfect sense if you don't want the new wifey to find out the truth about your financial dealings, and you opened new accounts with a new bank so she wouldn't see the old joint checking account at the old bank with the old wife. Think she'll start looking? He lied and lied about money with me, too. When I started looking and asking questions, that's when I got fired.

Again: Either she is beyond stupid to accept an unhealthy arrangment like this, or she's not about to upset her nice new marriage by being "controlling" and "judgmental" like his horrible ex-wife and is living under a cloud of lies and denial. Enjoy, honey. Hope it's worth it to you. I couldn't take it. Maybe you can.

About a year and a half ago I sent a box full of old pictures, mostly of us with HIS family, to him at his work. I did not want to throw them away, so that's what I did. No note, no nothing, just the pictures. Haaaa! Wonder how that went over with her? Or did he just throw the box away or otherwise keep her from knowing about it?

Since he left almost four years ago, there's been a pile of boxes with his personal stuff in them - things that I don't want and I don't need for the house. I tried to do the decent thing and box them up, and asked my son more than once to get a friend to just take the sh*t over to Daddy's house so we could have more room in the garage. Nobody would even consider it. Now I know why. Wouldn't want to upset new little wifey by getting a load of stuff from his old life! Sure, it's always been okay to torment ME to death with his girlfriends and his lies, but we don't want to upset HER.

I couldn't sleep last night, and this morning was trash pickup, so at about 4:30 a.m. I loaded as much of as I could into the wheelie bin and took it to the curb. The rest is in a heap out back and will go out with the next pickup.

Amazing how things suddenly make sense, innit?

Mulan, you have spent more time on the note above than he's worth. Re-set your "Plan B Death Ray" to full power, and keep him FAR in your past, okay?

Re: the garbage's garbage, two options:

1)A letter from your lawyer to his giving uno-who two months to make arrangements to have it picked up, or it will all be donated/trashed.
2) Arrange with a trusted third-party to cart it over there and leave it at his front door.

Move on, kiddo.

Um, NG - I just got sucker-punched with this barely 48 hours ago. I knew *nothing* about it. I am not one to just stuff things down and try to ignore them and hope they go away. My post above was one way of dealing with it and facing it head on.

If there's one thing I always find insulting and demeaning and dismissive, it's "move on". I have "moved on" a great deal in the past four years. If it was that easy to forget and "move on", I'd be just as cold-blooded and just as much in denial as he is. I do still have feelings and I'm glad I do, even if that means I have to take the time to work through them.

Which I am. That's where the post above came from.

Things that may not seem that big of a deal to an outsider, can be HUGE to a person in a dark PLan B, and that's kinda the point. See, while you are in Plan B, you don't think about that person, and your feelings for them kinda get buried away. It's like a scab gets placed over the pain, hurt, anger, etc. Then, something comes up and that scab gets ripped off. Not only does the pain from the ripping occur, but so does the original pain that was under there trying to heal itself.

I know you(Mulan) will get through this with class and dignity. You have with everything else in the past. I honestly am envious of your PLan B darkness, as I KNOW that I would hear about any nuptials that happen between my WH and any future bride. It's hard enough to get some people not to tell me about walking past WH at Walmart.

Take your time, get yourself refocused, and follow your plan.

This is a very powerful statement Mulan, and one I find breathtaking to read. I find Plan B is great but it still cannot protect from the catastrophic damage done to the children when there is an ongoing divorce due to adultery. I hate the term "move on". It implies the nuclear bomb the wayturd dropped should just be swept up and forgotten. How can anyone move on when your world was rocked by an atomic bomb? We can tend to the wounds ... but we never forget ... the scars are deep and painful... when divorce results from this bomb there are years of healing that must take place.

I will absolutely die when my WH remarries ... I love this man with all my being, and want nothing more than him to return to the body he used to call home.

Today ... WH is an extremely selfish, narcissistic, immature manboy ... thank goodness none of those whores will ever have my husband. They get some alien replicate with a harden soul and spiritless eyes.

God Bless

Tough~

Well, he lost his pretty amazing wife, and this is a guy who likes having a home, a base or (what passes for) a marriage. Part time only of course.

Since you 'got fired' (I'll use your phrase though I would have said it was the other way around) for being too smart and on the ball.... what do you think was on the top of his shopping list for a new wife?

Dumb.

While its marginally possible he's tricking a smart girl, it would be easier for him to just pick up someone dumb.

Most of the ENs can be met by someone dumb. A lot of them anyway, and he's not too concerned about getting all his needs in one place. The others can be met elsewhere.



I have to agree with this. My lovely, affectionate dad who is kinda hot tempered, is constantly telling me to 'move on'. Yells it, sometimes. Part of it is not wanting me to be upset, part of it is being terrified at my being open to the idea of recovery.. I tell myself its affectionate, but it does grate.

So the break in Plan B is NOT fun. They never are. But you will get back to where you need to be. One of the great things about this horrible ride is you learn what you are capable of.

The money may be one of her highest EN's ... she doesn't care what he does as long as he showers her with money. She doesn't care where the money comes and goes as long as it sees her purse daily.

Just like Holyheart's whorish OW ... she used the man until his finances all dried up and then she was out the door. He is left bankrupt, extremely wayward, and is delusional thinking Holyheart is the main reason his whore is gone.

This relationship won't last Mulan ... as he ages ... she won't want to deal with the ailments. As long as you are to get a substantial part of his paycheck ... you should do some super snooping to see how much money she is really spending.

With the economy today ... his retirement may run out long before he is ready to retire, especially if he needs to buy fancy stuff.

(((Mulan)))

This isn't helping you - back to plan B!

She is still in her plan, the photo was an accidental find.

And she needs to process it. I can't imagine discovering something like this and NOT having a response. No Plan B can be guarenteed airtight. There is always the potential for cracks, as BS's are only in control of their actions, not others.

Mulan, I liked your reasoning about your reaction, you are human after all.

A wayward boxes things up. The betrayed grieves and processes. And LEARNS and GROWS.

Im pretty sure that if my WH and OW were to get married, I would find out. Not instantly, because people are briefed not to tell, but it would happen at some point.

Thank you all for your responses. I'm just amused because now, finally, we can use the word "whore" on MB. About time!

What advice would you give fellow Plan Bers?

We have a few on the board and a few preparing for it now. What can they learn from your experience?

I'm just amused because now, finally, we can use the word "whore" on MB. About time!

Yup! And women can use "skank"! (Men can, too, unless there is a chance that the "skank" might read it!)

Well, let's see: I learned that if your "Plan B" is tight enough, your XWS is liable to go to mindblowing lengths of insanity in order to:

1) Get your attention
and
2) Prove to themselves that the destruction of their 25-year marriage and family had nothing to do with them, that they are a wonderful marriage partner, and everybody likes them best.

In this case, #1 didn't work (not until much, much later) but #2 sure did.

But of course, that's just a jealous, scorned, dumped ex-wife talking. It's really true love at long last. Everybody can see that. Right?

Mulan I've been mulling over your sitauation and wondered if you would advise me to stay in a Plan B forever?

I'm halfway to a divorce, we have no children and I have no interest in knowing how he and OW get on in the future....

That's my feeling at the moment and Im curious as to your perpective.

I'm not Mulan, but I think I'd agree to eternal Plan B. You have no connections to him like kids, and you don't need the strain.

Mulan, the words you spoke have a very ugly reality to them, and I believe many betrayed face both 1 & 2 with great emotional collateral damage.

#2 is the likely path my WH will walk. Of course round 2 will be much better because now WH knows what not to do. Wife #1 was such a nagging, fat, lazy, wrench ... he will just choose better this time. Because WH is all that and he is owed a hot looking wife, who appreciates him, she will give him true happiness, little to no responsibility, and did I forget ... he learned what not to do in marriage by going out and committing adultery. It was his greatest lesson learned on how to escape a marriage (that was happy many many times) ... just commit adultery, abandon your entire heritage, and Presto ... Soul-mate #2 is waiting in the wings.

Now WH won't have to change one bit. No, I, WH, am God and will now be able to find eternal happiness and joy throughout my life because my true soul-mate wasn't my wife of 17 years.

Meanwhile ... his gazillion kids (who WH has officially stopped seeing (or may pop in a hour or so a month)) and I lay here with shrapnel and bomb parts piercing through our torn and shattered bodies ... bruised ... battered ... bleeding profusely ... we have slowly began to pick ourselves up ... watching as our multitude of scars slowly heal over as time continues to tick.

But Hey "WH don't worry about us" ... someones trash usually becomes someone elses treasure.

It still absolutely crushes me that my kids would go to his wedding. Sickens me to the bone. They have no idea. What lie was I told the day it happened? What was I doing then? Where did I *think* my son and daughter were that day?

It's hilarious that at that very same time, in May of 2009, I dragged my son over to PetSmart to look at the cat I wanted to adopt and make sure it was ok with him before I brought the animal home - while his father was bringing a new WIFE home. Stunning. And sickening.

What's happened here is that Worst-Case Scenario that every BS and XBS fears: She Has My Life. I worked for nearly 30 years to build a life and a family and a future with this man, only to get thrown away like garbage so this g*ddam heifer can just waltz in and settle right down in MY place - and everybody thinks it's wonderful. She's got my husband, my kids, and my life. And everybody wishes her well and totally ignores me because I am now an inconvenient piece of garbage that they all threw away and why can't I just move on, too?

They are all teaching my kids and grandkids that people are disposable and replaceable. Their mother sure was. It's probably the worst thing that can happen in a situation like this.

Of course, I realize that any psychiatrist would have a field day with the fact that after nuking his own family, XWH IMMEDIATELY went out and recreated the very same situation: Same kind of house, right up the street, with a wife who looks just like I looked at the age of 40 and knows nothing about his past, and wanted my son to move in with them. After insisting that he hated being married and wanted to be a full-fledged single guy so he could enjoy it, Four Freaking Months Later he went out and recreated EXACTLY what WE had before he left.

At that time I could barely get myself out of the house to bring home a cat, but he's recreating the same family that he nuked four months before.

And it doesn't matter what disaster they may or may not be headed for. At the end of the day, She Has My Life. It won't matter what might happen in the future. She Does Not Care. She Has My Life. I have bills, debt and soul-eating loneliness while She Has My Life.

And I have tried to find something else, but I've found nothing of interest. I don't enjoy online dating crap at all. It's like putting a horse in a sale catalog, or even worse, taking a piece of junk you found in the basement and putting it on e-Bay in hopes of getting something for it. And there are creeps and married men everywhere who may well get nasty if they think you aren't responding to them. Swell.

But that's okay. His new wife is VERY happy. She doesn't have to crawl around in the sewers of online dating sites. Debra Has My Life, and My Kids And My Former Family All Think It's Great. How very nice for HER.

Dear lord, Mulan. From across an ocean I know she doesn't have your life.

She has a fake life with a fraud husband. She either knows it already or the knowledge is in the post. (Ok, in the mail, Americans)

How can she have your life when she doesnt have your wisdom??

Again, from across an ocean I KNOW that much.

C'mon Mulan. Internet dating is not the whole world. If Internet dating holds nothing foir you, does that mean there I'd nothing in the whole wide world?

It is your xWH cruelty that shines bright in his behavior. It is the cruelest and most abusive action to be taken by this man. Instead of fixing what he broke ... he threw away his entire heritage hoping a clean slate will rid him of his disgust. Mulan ... he can run and try to pretend he is starting fresh. We know and thousands of psychologists know, and even God knows you cannot run/hide/avoid your mistakes. They will forever haunt you until the day you die or until you correct what you broke.

What exactly have your children said about this? Have you sat down and discussed their feelings on this?

Is it a case that your children enjoy the money and also exhibit the inherent selfishness of their wayward father because they don't want the money to stop flowing to them?

I agree with Indie ... she doesn't have your life. Your life has honor, truth, and dignity ... her life has lies, deceit, and probably a whole lot of manipulation. It is hard to read your words because I know myself I face your same situation.

We, BW, come to this board hoping and praying our WH's will pull it together. Give us and our family and our children a shot at true happiness, and they don't. They throw us out and move on as if all they built before them was worthless and disposable. I know how you feel. We get the pain you are in ... again your WH is a very cruel man.

The cruelty in a man who can do this to his wife and children will be shown in all aspects of his life. The greatest place it is shown is in his heart, veins, because he is soulless. The saddest part is he is killing himself by the choices he makes. He can't be happy. Cruelty and abuse do not foster and grow happiness. It is a fake sense of admiration. It is a false sense of self.

The man you loved is still being overtaken by the wayward. The alien that lives within ... and the joy you can sleep on at night is she gets that wayward. I am sure you have read this board and you know exactly what life is like with a wayward.

Waywards are addicts ... they feed themselves on brain chemicals as long as possible. When the HIGH wears off they do either two things ... seek a new HIGH (more adultery) or sink into a deep depression because they are unable to cope with the collateral damage done by their own hands. They live in their self inflicted pain.

I can promise you that your xWH has no other way to live ... he is either searching for his HIGH by seeking a new adulterous partner or he is sitting in a cesspool of self inflicted pain rotting his insides to his death. His third and only option viable is to repent, and make amends to those he has harmed.

Since he has not done this third option (because that involves you) ... please find peace in knowing he is living in utter hell. He does not lay his head down at night with any sense of peace. If he does, then you he is by far such a narcissist with absolutely no empathy for his victims ... of course she can have him.

Let her have this loser of a man ... he isn't your husband. She never had your husband. She had a wayward ... a committed liar, cheater, and low-life. His money can't buy her truth and will only destroy what truth she lived.

She never had your husband ... you and only you had that man. He was yours, will always be yours, and by God's grace may one day return to be yours.

I am sorry for your pain ... I just hope your xWH will someday pull himself out of the cruel and abusive world he lives and make right what he has done wrong.

thank you - that's how I try to look at it, though it's cold comfort most of the time.

The worst part of this is really not that he was crazy enough to marry somebody else barely 4 months after nuking his own long-term family - I am shocked, but not surprised. I actually told my son not long after Daddy walked out that he might do something like this and he should be prepared for it.

I don't think anyone believed me at the time.

No, the worst part is that all the rest of his relatives, who had been my only family for many, many years, immediately threw me under the bus even before XWH left. Once he finally realized that no amount of bribery or bullying would ever make me put up with his girlfriends, he couldn't dump me fast enough and neither could they.

Then I find out that my son was the best man at the wedding, and I can only assume that all the rest of the family was perfectly supportive, too. There are a few things on Facebook and Google+ that make that very clear.

But people still insist they can't understand why I feel like last week's garbage that got kicked to the curb. They say this while celebrating seeing somebody else sitting in my place and eating up the benefits of 30 years of work that I did trying to build a family and a future - while people that I treated as family all that time, no questions asked, simply ignore me and behave as if I'm dead.

Which I am, to them. That's kind of the idea. You cannot have a second wife unless you bury the first, one way or the other, and that is why I am so horrified by all of this - especially by the idea of my kids being at and supporting their wedding.

To anyone out there contemplating divorce: Be prepared for this. Your STBX-family, even if you think they adore you, may well throw YOU under the bus, too. You've heard the saying that "blood is thicker than sh*t" - well, it's true, and I'm living proof of that.

The XWS's family has to blame somebody for the end of the marriage, and guess what? It's not going to be THEIR family member (because that would reflect badly on the rest of them) and it's not going to be your replacement (because THEIR family member adores that person, so they're in.)

No, it's going to be YOU who will be blamed, because you are once again an outsider and therefore a wide-open target.

It isn't just the re-marriage that's killing me. It's the universal support that it's getting from everybody else. It's the almost four years of manipulation I got to make sure I stayed out of the way and didn't spoil the fun by, you know, existing - by being a reminder of the ugly reality of what XWH and his wonderful delightful new bride have REALLY cost someone else.

So they ignore me and marginalize me, or pretend I don't exist at all.

Denial is a hugely powerful thing. It's too bad I don't have a whole lot more of it. Then I could like in Fake Fantasyland, too, just like all the rest of them do, and pretend that treating people and families like disposable and replaceable objects is a good thing and will make you happy.

Well, *they're* all happy, so it must be true - right? Right.

Mulan, I am so sorry about that. Have you spoken to your children about how you feel? That's gotta be tough.

And about the outlaws. I know exactly what you mean. In my case, my SIL is a current MOW, and my MIL was a serial adulterer. There was NO support from that end when I exposed. I got, "Well, everyone deserves to be happy. You should just move on(to someone else)". When my SIL began her affair, my WH refused to talk to her, for FOUR years. Now, he goes to her house and fixes her computer, etc. And my WH NEVER called his mother, not even on her bday. I was always the one encouraging a relationship, for the sake of the kids. Now, my MIL goes over to OW and WH's house. She has never once been in mine. And of course both my SIL and MIL say that I am still family. Really? Wel, I guess technically, since I'm not even divorced. But accepting her so readily, after 20 years of me being around, is just sickening.

Adultery sucks.

Our couple friends (including close girlfriends) threw me under the bus for reasons based on arithmetic from what I can gather. OW (a friend) and WH (A friend) outnumbered me two to one.

I think its amazing that exposure helped me to flush out and get rid of false friends.

STBXHs family are very supportive of me - for now. I dont expect that to last once the divorce is final and I dont expect them to condemn any new wife.

As you say, blood is what counts, and that is where things will settle in the end. For now I am their best bet; and they would rather have me for a sister and daughter in law than some skanko they would be ashamed of. However I do think once they realise he's dead set on being wayward for life, they will make do with whatever type of woman he produces.

I think your in-laws realised rather sooner that he was always going to be a wayward (you describe him as though he is king of the waywards!) and so got on board that much sooner.

But remember, Fake Fantastyland is an awfully uncomfortable place. Plus families who smile outwardly dont always do so inwardly. Do you think she's really popular with them? That he is still a favoured son? Behind closed doors? I'm not so sure.

Have you spoken to your children about your feelings about their attending the wedding? You may feel better if you do.

Yes, I've talked to the kids and a few friends about it. It's always some variation of, "We've moved on, so why can't you?"

Right.

I also got, when I asked why they did not tell me about his remarriage: "We wanted to protect you."

No, you wanted to protect THEIR WEDDING from any discomfort due to, as I said above, the cold hard reality of the price somebody else had to pay for the newlyweds' happiness. It was easier to pretend I did not exist, so that's what everybody did and everybody *whew* was able to have a lovely time that day without having to be reminded of me (since I still had the bad taste to exist).

I wonder what I was doing that day, and where I thought my son was? In May of 2009, I was still trying to put one foot in front of the other and only working part time, and I brought home a cat who'd been on death row at the pound and had to go to the vet several times for botched surgery (Humane Society paid for it all.)

Well, at least I still have the cat. He's sleeping right behind my chair as I type this.

When I asked, "How could you sit there and let me find out on my own about their marriage? I had to find out sooner or later. How could you let me walk into a sledgehammer like that??"

"We thought that by the time you found out, you'd be in a better place and wouldn't mind so much."

dear gods . . .

As I keep saying, the worst part of this is not so much that he married somebody else. If I had known at the time, that would have just confirmed to me that he really was 16 different kinds of batsh*t crazy to instantly recreate the family he just got done blowing up. Even I could have seen that.

No, the worst part is seeing just how fast I could be replaced - not just by him, but by EVERYONE - and in seeing how perfectly happy all of them are to have me non-existent and how they will all lie to me and deceive me for YEARS it that's what it takes to keep me non-existent.

This is what I cannot cope with. I expected it from him, sure, but not from the rest of them. Oh, well. It's like being dead but not really dead, which is damned inconvenient. Why do you think zombie movies and TV shows are so hugely popular these days? There are a whole, whole lot of us Walking Dead out here.
That's exactly what this feels like.

Mulan,
You say she has your life...is that a life you want? It seems to me a life you needed away from...

Just for the record, my XH threw me overboard for someone 16 years younger than me...she wanted my life, she wanted him to marry her, and although they lived together, he didn't marry her. She died 13 months ago of liver failure from excessive drinking...she called me two days beforehand, said she'd gained 80 lbs since they'd been together.

Now my XH is dying of throat cancer...too many cigarettes, and it's too far gone for chemo...he's in for a tortuous time ahead.

Sometimes it may appear all goes well for them and they didn't have to pay for their sins, sometimes it seems we did all of the paying for the choices they made, but it's not over until it's over.

Incidentally, I understand what you mean about getting hit with all of this news out of the sky blue after being on Plan B for so long, that's how it was for me too. (Someone else called and told me). To add insult to injury, some people assumed I still loved him is why it was hard...no, not like that at all, but it does stir up the old fallout just to even hear about them.

I'll pray he accepts God before he dies, but someone else will have to do the ministering...I'm out of the picture! (BTW, I thought he was a Christian when I married him, it wasn't until six months after we married that he told me he wasn't...he was the big pretender throughout our relationship).

Mulan ... your children have learned a bad habit of "Protective Liar" and waywardness.

I ask you again ... how much money is attached your children from your WH? They sense of entitlement, protective liarness, and wayward mindset is making me think WH has them bought somehow.

Your ability to stand up for what is right and honorable has you getting run over by the evil that manifests itself in your WH and most likely your children.

There is no escaping the brunt of the devil...he will work until all good is destroyed. He works best in families, especially ones that can be destroyed by adultery.

I would do some digging ... to really figure out the level of your children's relationship with him. My thought is something evil is at its root. Children know right from wrong and for them to be okay now means there is a payoff for them, otherwise they would not have thrown you under the bus.

Knowing the payoff is key ... how much has he bought for them?

PI, I don't know. I didn't think he was giving them money directly - at least, not to the kids. I know his brothers and other relatives see him as a big walking ATM, but I didn't think my kids were doing that.

It may well be that the kids have the same problem I do: They were very close to him all those years, before he just lost his freakin' mind, and thought they could still have some kind of relationship with him as long as I didn't know.

Everybody saw what happened to me, which is the same thing that happens to anyone who refuses to enable an addict: You get thrown away and completely cut off. They got the message. All of them did. The only one who didn't sell out was me.

But it's like they say: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." There's no avoiding that choice, much as everybody here thought they could avoid it. For pete's sake, what do people think "divorce" really means??

Mulan I am so sorry people dont 'get it'.

I really am. You deserve that support. And these people, even if they are a bit foolish, deserve peace away from a wayward's drama, not the crumbs of a relationship with a crazy person.

People may get it in time. That it just isnt worth it to prop up insanity.

You can only control your own actions, not others. Let them draw their own results over time.

Exactly Mulan he is a full fledged addict and there are only two options for him.

1) Continue getting his HIGH how ever possible
2) Finally settle as a dry drunk

If your children are enabling him, then you know what will come of this? They will live a life that is miserable. They will live a life that eludes them happiness.

Your xWH hasn't healed his addiction. He can't until he makes amends to you. The money is the only thing holding everything together, new wife and all ...

This is Mulan's daughter chiming in.

I care about Mulan a lot. She is my mother and I have a lot of compassion for her situation. I hate that I did keep a big secret from her. I hated it. It may or may not have been the right decision. I love her, she is my mother. I will always try to help and love her.

However, I don't have control over her happiness and anger. I also know that I cannot help her move beyond her anger over this situation -- which has been going on for approx 10 years.

Yes, I have a relationship with her XH. So does my brother. Isn't that what she always wanted? Unfortuantely, she doesn't have control over who I or my brother have a relationship with. Just because we have a relationship with him, doesn't mean we have any less compassion or support for her. It is not her place to decide when and who I or my brother have a relationship with. It is not appropriate. And our relationship has nothing to do with money or "evil". I actually resent that.


I love Mulan with all of my heart. But she has so much anger that has impacted her daily life and relationships with family that love and care for her. I cannot accept the long emails that diminish my and my brother's character. I can't have her move her anger from her XH to us. It isn't appropriate and her accusations are very false.

XH isn't perfect. I honestly think he just became someone she didn't like. And that is fine. If she think he destroyed our family, I understand. I just want her to find a way to remove some of the anger about someone she can no longer control. She can control herself, but not him. She has two children and two grandchildren that love her. But she is choosing to live with this anger instead of living with the happniness around her she does have. After 10 years of anger, she is making a clear choice.

I just want her to find a way to be happy. And I'm really not sure that is ever going to happen. It is sad.

Hi Cindy, glad you posted!

You're right about some things, like that you and your brother have no control over your mom's happiness and anger, and that she doesn't have any control over who you have a relationship with.

You're also right that your mom has a lot of anger that still impacts her daily life. That is something she needs to deal with, and I believe she'll get there in time. I've known your mom for many years now, and she's an awesome and strong woman. The greater the trauma the longer the healing time, but I KNOW she'll get there.

As to your dad, he didn't just become someone she didn't like. Every single one of us who have lived with an adulterer know that they literally become a monster. As long as they cling to that mindset, they will remain selfish and uncaring of how they hurt the people they once loved. Once they choose to change, they again become good people...honorable and honest.

Being a daughter and not a wife, this affected you in a different way than it did your mom. You aren't going to be able to fully understand what happened to her unless you yourself are betrayed years into a marriage with children. And believe me, I hope that NEVER EVER happens. I would much rather have you disagree with me the rest of your life than to find out the hard way that I was right about the dynamics of adultery.

For your mom, and most of us, too, adultery was the most painful thing we ever went through in our whole lives. Most of us, from the severity of the trauma, went through PTSD and all kinds of awful experiences as a result, even those of us who happily recovered our marriages.

You and your brother have been affected far more than you know by remaining close to your father while he continues to be an adulterer. It's your choice, and you were free to make it, but it will have insidious affects just by being around someone who approves and lives a kind of lifestyle that is frankly evil. It will impact anyone who keeps your dad in their close circle of friends or family. That's a clear choice, too.

Since your perspective is different than your mom's, I hope you'll stay around long enough to read some of the stories on here of others who have suffered through their spouse's betrayals. It may give you more insight into your mom, and what she is still struggling to fully recover from.

Thanks for taking the time to post!

Cyndy, Im finding your reasoning hard to follow.

Im not criticising your reasoning - Im simply saying I dont see what your reasoning is.

Some of your phrasing I find a bit odd, so perhaps you could elaborate to help me understand better:





Of course not Cyndy. You have free will there. But you must accept that not everyone will admire your choices there regrading the comapny you keep. That is Mulans freedom of choice to like or dislike it.

When you make free choice, you must accept the consequences of those choices.



He committed adultery. One of the most abusive acts imaginable. He CHOSE to be someone that few people would like. I dont see your point here.

There is a lot you don't know about what is happened with our family. I have a very different perspective on the situation. But I'm not going to go into that here.

I only wanted to come in here to say that I support Mulan. I love her. I'm not evil, I'm not an enabler and I'm not out for money. That hurts me deeply. I'm a good person and if she really thinks these things about us, she doesn't know me well at all.

She is so quick to judge everyone on their actions. But she won't look in the mirror to see how this whole situation and her actions have impacted those close to her. It really has.


I just want her to find a way to move past the anger over someone she can't control. The anger is so vile and deep, and irrational. It is beyond scary, if you ask me. It isn't normal. I just wish she would seek help - have someone help her sort through this anger.

Everything she is going through is VERY normal.

It doesn't actually matter what deep dark secrets you aren't telling us about the family. There is nothing special about your dad's adultery. The details change, but the stories are the same every day of the week. Nothing you could say would change the basic facts that:

Your dad cheated.
His cheating killed the marriage.
His cheating destroyed your mom.
Your mom has had to try and put herself back together from scratch.
Healing takes a long, long time. Years.
Your mom is progressing along the healing path.
Her speed of progress is not as important as that she is still making progress.
Your dad is still an adulterer.

It really is that simple, and no amount of extraneous information will change those core statements.

OK, since nobody seems to be getting the message - not just cyndyk, but practically anyone I ever communicate with - let me tell you what the problem really is:

I still love the man.

Should I say that again?

I still love the man.

I am not walking around "angry". For the last three years, I have been trying my best to put my life back together. I work seven days a week, every week, doing 50-60 hours a week of medical transcription and writing another novel with any time left over.

I ran into the news about his near-instant remarriage only about 10 days ago and yes, it was extremely shocking to me.

But, as I said, the real problem is that I still love the man. I was with him too long and was too close with him and things were too good for too many years until he started chasing girls at work and sorry, I was not willing to sell out and look the other way about that - not even to keep him around.

Now, "should" I feel this way? Everybody will tell me no, I should not. But I do. It's just there. Believe me, my life would be way easier if I cared about him as little as he (rather obviously) cares about me. I need Mr. Spock to come over and place his hand on my face and say, "Forget", but that's not going to happen.

I still love the man. I never, ever acted on it. I have had zero contact with him since the day he left almost four years ago. That should be obvious, given that I didn't even know he was married. It's just there, as I said. Some bonds cannot be broken no matter what the other person does. I had a responsibility to not allow him to hurt me anymore, since he would not stop, and I did make it stop.

But this is the real problem. I still love the man. I don't hang onto it or try to force it out of some kind of spite. I don't have to. It's just there. I learned to live with it. It is all I have left of a life that I *thought* was worth fighting for, so I did fight for it. I don't anymore. But it's all I have left and in a bizarre way, it comforts me.

I am working and I am functional. If I still love someone that I raised children with and tried to build a life with for nearly 30 years, so what? I never, ever bother him or any of my former family. It seems to me that's it's far more abnormal to cold-bloodedly blow that family up and immediately try to recreate it with somebody else, but that's just me.

But if I'm not dating every guy that pops up online, and not "moving on" to everyone's satisfaction, this is why. It's not out of hate and it's not out of anger. It's because I still love the man. That may well be where I remain and if I can find a measure of comfort there, so what? It's more than many people have.

That is such a heartless thing to say about your mother's reactions to finding about about your father's rapid re-marriage, and your celebration of his abandonment of your mother to the point of your brother being best man at the wedding - best man; there can be no bigger an endorsement of a marriage - that my breath has been taken away.

What does she have to look in the mirror for? Has she hurt any of you by betraying and abandoning you as your father has done to her? And with many betrayals over many years, such as he committed?

How has she hurt you?

Shame on you, cyndyk, for coming here and posting those words. SHAME ON YOU.

Actually Milan, your feelings and expression of hurt are much more emotionally healthy then 'just moving on'. Life is not some 3rd world country airport baggage claim, instead at your baggage will be there at your destination. Dealing with your emotions is much healthier in the long run.

4years isn't long, you need time.

Cindy, as the daughter of a father who married his mistress days after the divorce was final, I understand your position and how you are feeling. The only way I can deal with it is to. E very clear I want a relationship with both parents. It is an ostrich approach. I know. But is the best I can do. Good luck, it is an awful position to be in.

And PS my mothers anger lasted for 12 or so years, so get used to it.

I have a relationship with both parents. But I don't think Mulan wants it that way. She has called me an enabler and terrible person because of that. How heartless is that? She can't watch my children or travel anywhere without having an anxiety attack. She screams and yells at people in the house right now. My brother and I included.

Both she and XH made their home and emotional hell for my brother for a good 5 years. How does that fair for him?

There is a lot you don't see on a message board. I know she still loves him. I understand that. But that love is holding her hostage in a cycle of depression and anger that she cannot move beyond.

I'm not saying "move beyond" loving him. Love him forwever. We all feel like you'll love him forever and forget about everyone else in front of you.

P.S. I also think that a huge part of the problem here is that XWH has all of his family members, including our kids, 100% convinced that he never, ever cheated in any way and that I just went nuts for no reason and he is just the poor poor victim of his crazy insane wife and what could poor little him do but escape and marry somebody way better?

That's okay. He had me fooled for a long time, too. But the rest of the family did not see the things I saw myself (because I used to work in the same place as him), did not read the emails I read, did not have the information I had.

He's good. He is a consummate liar and manipulator, as every cheater is. He knew exactly how to push my buttons to provoke a meltdown, such as deliberately disappearing on me when I had specifically asked him not to do that (back when I was still trying to work with him to save it) and then insist to everyone else that he had no idea what the problem was and I was obviously just crazy and in need of "help".

I know that many Betrayed Spouses run into the same thing: People Don't Believe You. It Must Be Your Fault if you partner is leaving. You are just jealous/controlling/insane/hallucinating.

So I'm fighting that battle, too - the battle of being disbelieved. But it's always easier to blame the spouse who is going crazy over being betrayed than it is to blame the cheater who is coldly pushing the buttons behind the scenes, because he is *such* a great guy and he would *never* do anything like that. Right?

Don't get me wrong. I don't want THAT guy back. He's the one I have 100% avoided for the last four years. But it is true that I still love the man he was for so long. I have no trouble making the distinction and as I said, I do sometimes find comfort in it.

Sure would be nice if people believed me, but I understand why they don't. He had me fooled for a long time, too.

I've always told you that I believed you. I've listened to you on many occasions. I get it. I'm just done re-hashing things that happened over 10 years ago. I've given you a lot of support over the years. I've been there for you the best I could.

What do you want from me? That is what I don't understand. Aren't we allowed to have a relationship with both of you? We love you both? Neither of you are perfect at all. Both of you have major issues. But both of you are good too. We are kids and old enough to have a relationship with you both. What is wrong with that? It is our choice. The situation happened between the both of you. For awhile, it impacted all of us. But in the end, you both got divorced. And we found a way to way to make it work with both of you. For the kids in the situation, I think that is fair and appropriate.

That's either the maple-syrup-in-January drain of your LB$ occuring in Plan B... or there are some deposits being made somewhere, somehow.

Too bad he's a dip, eh?

Cindy, it takes time. It is a wave of emotions of which the amplitude only softens gradually.

You are emotionally where I was about 15 years ago. I too got sick and tired of my mothers anger and wished it would just go away. Instead, I couldn't understand my projection, untill I dealt with my suppressed anger towards both my parents for failing me and my brother. Currently working on that one, a work in progress. I have finally after so many years told each of them how they failed and betrayed me, the child too. And I was an adult when this all happened, but I for always be their child.

It sucks to be a child of a longstanding marriage that ended because of adultery.

I have apologized to both my kids for trying too long and too hard to save it. I *thought* I was still dealing with the man he had been, and I thought that even if things were awful at the time *it would be worth it* if our family could stay together.

I turned out to be wrong about that. I should have cut him loose long before I did. And I'm sorry, now, that I didn't.

Yes, it's true that I do sometimes suffer from anxiety attacks and often struggle a great emotionally. But all I can say is that this is a very, very long process and I am doing the best I can. I am not going to take anti-depressants or Xanax or Ativan just so I can get through a day, which far too many people do.

You can't go around this stuff. You have to go *through* it. Yeah, it's really really tough. But in the long run, it's a much healthier way to deal with it.

And yes, ONE screaming meltdown in FOUR YEARS, about a week after I found about his new wife and the support she was getting. One Time.

I don't expect anyone to really understand this if you have not been through it. I know I didn't. I am doing the best I can but it takes one hell of a long time. I just wish folks would understand that having very strong feelings about losing your family IS normal. Instantly moving on and trying to forget the old family and recreate it (!) is NOT normal. But I also realize that very, very few people are going to understand that.

If you were neutral towards your father after he left your mother in order not to have to be a faithful husband to her, and if you were kindly to him when he announced that he had moved on from his long marriage and would be marrying somebody 4 months after his divorce, then you were an enabler. If you were happy for him to do whatever he wanted to make himself happy then you were/are an enabler. What else would you call it?

We are not talking about vulnerable young kids or early teens here, cyndyk. You must have been in your late 20s when you father abandoned your mother. You might even have been married with children of your own. If you were "neutral" about the evil of his acts then you were not neutral; you were an enabler, given your blessing to that evil. You were old enough to know right from wrong.

It wasn't fair that your brother's home life was hell for 5 years before your father left, but your mother did not create that hell. Your father did, by being an adulterer and insisting that she put up with it.

You are more than old enough to know right from wrong and yet you show no signs of being able to discriminate. Is adultery wrong, or not?

Well, the Harleys say that Plan B, properly done, allows you to preserve your love for the WS since they are not able to hurt you anymore and you can remember them as they were. I guess they were right.

II just don't understand it and I guess that makes me terrible. You have every right to be devastated the rest of your life. I really understand it. I still believe the hurt and anger are holding you hostage from being truly happy. I feel like the hurt and anger are so strong that you struggle so much emotionally because of it. I just wish you can find a way to channel and sort out this anger and depression in a healthier way. Instead of constantly re-hashing everything that has happened over and over. I honestly don't feel like you listen to anything any of us are saying. I really don't. You don't understand how YOUR actions in the last five years have impacted us. I just wish you would be accountable and take responsibility for some it too. Sure you didn't start the process, but some of your rage, anger and irrationality really contributed to the household's demise as well. You don't see that. You are too stubborn to realize or listen or understand anything beyond the "cheater".

I feel like I've lost YOU in this. This is a situation you cannot control any longer.


Re: Being an enabler. This is not my situation. Sure, his "cheating" apprently broke up the family. But in the end it broke up their marriage. It is my decision about how I handle the relationship with XH moving beyond their divorce. If I feel that I have enough information to reconcile with him, that is my choice. I think of my relationship as two separate things. Sure, they divorced eachother. But that doesn't mean I have to permenantly divorce him too. I've said my peace to him. If I'm ok, with the answer, it is my choice.

Most people here understand it, Mulan, because as BSs (most of us) we thought we were facing abandonment for the week and months until the affair died away, and some of us have actually faced abandonment. We do understand your feelings.

The thing is, we want you to get over/round/through this because it is hell living with the daily trauma. We want you to stop feeling this pain. But we would never, ever tell you to "look in the mirror" as if the deliberate destruction of your life was your fault.

"Apparently".

Isn't it interesting how words convey meaning. By the use of that one word you demonstrate that you do not believe your mother. You are at best "neutral" between her claims and your father's denials; in other words, you don't necessarily believe that she is telling you the truth about her marriage. You are just as open to believing your adulterous father. And the other words underlined show that you are blaming your mother's anger at your father's affairs for "really contributing to the household's demise as well". You, young lady, need to hang your head in shame.

Yes, it is your decision about how you handle the relationship with your father. That is exactly my point. Nobody has said that it isn't your decision and your choice.

If you are okay with his answer about his adulteries, then that is indeed your choice. You are now seeing the consequence of YOUR CHOICE in the relationship you now have with your mother. and in her distress.

If you are "ok with the answer" then you are indeed an enabler. You might see nothing wrong with that - but don't come here trying to justify your behaviour and attitudes to this board. You chose to come here and defend your behaviour - but it won't be condoned on this board, where adultery is condemned.

Should I not have a relationship with my own father? Isn't that up to me? Sure, I don't like what happened between them and I don't like his actions, but I should be allowed to have a relationship with him. It isn't about believing either side. I have made decisions about what happened, but in the end, it is between them, not me. Why should I be punished for actions that I had NOTHING to do with? Have you ever been a divorced kid? This is about the worst kind of attitude to have toward the child in the situation. Let's just make the "child" (I'm not a child) in the sitation choose and if it isnt the right choice, they are punished. Nice.


What do you suggest I do, then?

I suggest compassion and empathy for your mother. And an understanding that there is a reason that adultery has been frowned upon throughout human history. Adultery leaves a wake of ruin in peoples lives.

I have been nothing but compassionate toward my mother for a long time. I became frustrated when she started judging my character through long, irrational emails.

She wants empathy toward her but there is no empathy towards us at all. It shouldn't just go one way.

The messages on this board sound patronizing to her, not compassionate.

Cyndyk

What I don't understand is who in your family has offered support love and care to your mum?? She left on her own to deal with her pain while you and your brother play the neutral card when infact your so quick to jump on here to berate your mums behaviour but I did t hear anything abou you criticising your fathers behaviour or telling him about what his behaviour has done to your family.

Do you have a relationship with just your father or do you have a nice relationship with his OW too?

Your mum endured a trauma and suffering that Dr Harley says is more painful than being raped or loosing a child, how do you then justify having contact and a relationship with the very people who destroyed your mothers happiness.

Seriously the neutral card your playing is warped your not at all neutral your being insensitive and uncaring.

My opinion is that you should have a relationship with your father once he makes the changes necessary to show that he is remorseful and sorry for his pitiful choices, until then he does not deserve to be a father to anyone.

PS I Hate my mother and have no contact with her but if she was in the same shoes your mother is in I would support her a million percent because I understand what she would be going through as I have been though it myself.

Until you go though something like infidelity please refrain form judging your mother s recovery because you have no idea of what that type of betrayal does to a person.

Oh don't be such a drama queen. You are a grown up. Write like one.

As far as I can tell, your mother's current distress is not at the fact that you have "a relationship" with your own father. It is at the kind of relationship that is; one that is happy that he is happy with his new wife, regardless of the wife he kicked aside to get to his happiness. If you can't see the difference between right and wrong then I know I won't be able to teach it to you via few posts on a message board.

I don't know what my history has to do with a grown woman being able to make decisions about her own behaviour, but yes, I was a "divorced kid". My mother left my father when I was 8 over his very similar-sounding adulteries; carrying on with women in the workplace and giving the impression that he did not have a wife at home, and other adulteries, too. My father married the woman he took us on a date with while he was still living with my mother. He married her within the year, and she divorced him a couple of years later.

My broken family faced hardships after the separation, but harder than the financial hardships and the living in one room was not having a father at home taking care of us.

I had a relationship with him until he died when I was 25, but it was reluctant. He was entitled to see us at regular intervals when we were kids and so we had to see him. When I grew up, I hardly saw him at all.

I regret all that and I really wish that it had never happened and that I had had a proper father. My regret is the main reason why I did not give up on my own marriage after multiple D Days; my children are a major part of the decision I take to carry on trying, every day, in this marriage. I wish I had not had to divorce my own father emotionally for causing us such misery - but after seeing my mother struggle and finally give up on dealing with his infidelities, I could never look at him neutrally, even aged 8.

I was a child, and I could tell right from wrong, at least.

Mulan,

I have been reading this diaologue and I have a couple things to add.

First off let me post to you my 10 Commandments.


Let me add ... you are perfectly in your right to grieve the cruelty and abuse you sustained at the hands of your abuser (xWH). You were murdered and if your daughter could actually see the pain of adultery as it is in terms of murder then she wouldn't be suggesting you get over it.

I hear entitlement, waywardness, and selfishness in your daughter. Again as I stated in my previous posts this is what happens when people enable addicts.

Again your xWH is an addict ... he will remain that way until he truly repents and repentance cannot be done unless you are involved.

I am sorry your children are rationalizing, justifying, and blameshifting you. In the end remember the guilt they carry is burdensome to them. I suspect your daughter carries that burden with her because it is written in her posts.

I encourage you to hold true the love you have for xWH and when it is your time to let it go, then you let it go. There are no rules, and there is no timeframe. It is a process and three years past this is still relatively new.

Your daughter wants you to get over it and move on because that would ease her guilt, and allow her to justify her relationship with her father.

I encourage you to grieve on your time. There is no such thing as moving on until your xWH cleans up the mess. As with all nuclear bombs it hangs around for each generation to get nuked ... this mess of a cesspool your xWH will continue through your children, your children's children, your children's children's children, until they finally STOP and say adultery is to NEVER EVER be accepted and they only way to make right what was wrong is to put back the family it destroyed.

Getting a new wife, new life, and new "Moving on" attitude has never ever been proven to fix the mess. Name me one couple where their lives turned out happy, healthy, and joyful when it is built on adultery, addiction, or waywardness.

{{{{{{MULAN}}}}}}}

We love you to pieces and the stance you have on adultery and your Plan B is proudly supported here and by posters on this board.

Tough~

cyndyk. Your posts are littered with anger directed towards Mulan and insinuations that she played a part in your father's decision to turn away from his commitments and become a liar and a cheat. The choice was entirely his to become a cheat...it was not a joint decision. You don't seem to grasp that fact. You don't get it.

When we marry we make a promise to turn towards each other...not away when things are rough.

I am sorry that your father put you in this position. Mulan is not the bad guy.

t/j

That is an amazing post PI.

End t/j

Cynd, you speak of what you know not of. I was only married for ten years and no children and only one A and the pain was/is/will always be physically excruciating.

Your mother is a hero.


Its healthy to admit you're hurt when you're hurt.

Its healthy to expect help from your loved ones.

Its healthy to expect time to do its job, in time and not before

Its healthy to refuse to sweep such a life altering blow under the carpet and pretend it doesn't matter.

Its healthy to refuse denial.

Its healthy to tell people to get a clue when they say 'get over it'
Or 'channel it'. Into what exactly? Nonsense.

So your dad stabbed your mother in the back and everyone is yelling at her for bleeding on the floor too much and for too long.

Help her, much, do you?

While you were toasting his attack of your mother at his wedding?

Its you and you're brother who are not choosing the healthy road.

You've both chosen denial, the nothing really matters, fake smiles, everybody's cool with your foul behaviour dad, path.

Which ENABLE him to continue that behaviour. With YOUR backing.

Your mothers wounds aren't old. She's barely had time to heal and the wounds get reopened every time someone claps her attacker on the back and wishes him well with the proceeds of that attack.



Telling her to get over it is not empathy. Empathy does not involve supporting the adulterers.

You do not need empathy. You need to wake up and face your own pain instead of pretending everything is great.

Hi, Cindy, I remember when you posted before, in about 2010 when your mother was really needing the peace that Plan B affords. At the time I mistakenly thought she was already divorced.

I have been in your situation, and for what it is worth, I made the opposite choice: I have nothing to do with my wayward mother. Despite the fact that a lot of people in society would take issue with how I have chosen to live my life, I have found that it is the safest and most peaceful for me. Among other things, it is the only way to recover from the trauma that my wayward mother brought by destroying my family when I was a teenager.

My father was not perfect, but nothing he did could have justified my mother choosing an affair.

My father wanted to keep our family, we children wanted to keep our family, our mother did not. So as far as I am concerned, she exited the family and the rest of us stayed. I would never support her new life, or permit her to justify her choice to bail, and that made it impossible for us to continue to have a relationship.

For what it's worth, this choice worked best for me, and I believe it is best today for my wife and children.

I will add one more thing (okay, two more things:)

1) I did not object to the kids having a relationship with their father. What I cannot fathom is their having a clearly supportive relationship with his instant new wife, and hiding that fact from me all this time.

2) The kids know that I will not leave them no matter what they might ever do, and I haven't - not now or ever. But they also know that their father WILL leave, because he did, and they know very well that if they ever dare stand up to him or say one word to him about any of his behaviour, he'll dump them the same way he dumped me.

And I'm not talking about financial cutoff - I'm talking about total cutoff from him entirely, exactly the way he cut me off and threw me away. He'll do the same to ANYONE who stands up to him, including the kids, and they absolutely know this. They had front-row seats when it happened to me.

It's a price I was not willing to pay, but they have made a different choice. I understand why they made it, but in the end, he may prove to be unworthy of their loyalty. Time will tell.

This was perfectly obvious to me, Mulan you didn't need to explain.

Your daughters hedged explanations of why she has a relationship with him : "he's not perfect" "I'm allowed". But not a word as to whether its a happy or satisfying one.

It must hurt you quite a lot to see them gaslighted and to see them try to hold on to the shell of the man he once was.

But they have to go their own way and find out for themselves. You've made your displeasure clear, the rest is up to them.

Being a mother looks hard.

Mulan,

We can see that and hear that in your daughter's posts. As outsiders we read her justifications, blame, and rationalizations and it is a fact those are covering fear.

Mulan ... I can see you trapped in their manipulation. It feels like your posts are trying to prove to us your reality, and we (all 100 posters) believe you, understand you, and want to let you know you don't have to prove anything to us.

You are being manipulated by the wayward and his minions. It is still controlling you, and I want to let you know we have your back.

I want to caution you because you seem to have waywards coming at you at all angles. I am not 100% certain how wayward your children are ... reading your daughters post suggest she is buying the kool-aid your WH is selling. Again I believe that is solely to appease her own guilt.

Your children are grown and of course they have the right to do what they want. I caution you trying to educate them. As long as they drink the adultery kool-aid they will exhibit key wayward (enabling/addict) behaviors. It is inherent and will not change until they remove themselves from denial.

You are caught between a rock and a hard place. You stood up for righteousness and honor only to be thrown under the bus now by your children. It is tough to be in this position because you love your children will all your might, yet they are a great source of pain today. Only you will know what is best in your relationship with them.

I encourage you to stand firm in your boundaries. For them to hold a lie for so long is going to have detrimental effects. I know your daughter is feeling it, and I can only assume your son is feeling as well. They became liars and ultimately betrayed you as well. The saddest part to all the lying, deceit,and betrayal is again it was all because of the selfishness, thoughtlessness, and cruelty from your xWH.

I know you as a mother taught them differently ... you taught them honor, integrity, character, and morals.

I pray your children will see the light and walk from the darkness. I caution you to keep your guard (boundaries) high as long as they continue to walk the path with a wayward.

There are tens of thousands of examples on this forum that those who enable a wayward usually walk the same path.

Be their lighthouse ...

Mulan I know you say WH has a lot of supporters but isn't there anyone, ANYONE who has stood up to him? Told him they're not putting up with this behaviour and he better make amends to his heartbroken family quick? Has no one told him that they will never partcipate in a family kumbaya-singing fake out while his behaviour remains so appalling?

Does no one love him or want him to be a good man?

Milan, please understand your daughter, she doesn't want to lose her father again and thus must support him and defend him. I was, regretfully, the same way.

Cindy, you have betrayed your mother. I did, and I made ammends. You need to start dealing with your own emotions of anger (it is clearly inwardly to your father, though you are projecting it on your mother, been there, done that), and abandonment. You are hiding, trust me, it will surface.

Trust me, this is not the case.

Listen, XH is no angel. I've said that. His actions have not always been noble or healthy for our family. I understand that.
Also, if Mulan is allowed to "stil love him", why can't I? Why can't I still have a relationship with him, if I choose?

I just don't think Mulan's actions are a healthy way of dealing with this hurt that was caused by him. I just think that for Mulan to become a healthy productive mother, grandmother and friend, I just would like to see her seek counsel or medication to help deal with the fall-out of this situation. I wouldn't say this if I really didn't think she needed help. Her words and feelings have not changed in over 10 years and that worries me.

If that makes me angry, selfish and obviously psychologically unstable, then so be it. You all don't know me very well. I just hope my mom sees past your words and doesn't see me the same way. I'm just angry and likely so is she. My heart has always been in the right place. I'm simply frustrated.

How do you plan to heal your mother from your lies, gaslighting, betrayal and long standing deceit?

You held those secrets for a long time ... would you be up to helping Mulan heal from these new inflicted wounds?

Your mother is lying on the floor bleeding to death. She has gaping wounds from her xWH, and now her children.

I would like to see your plan on how you will help her heal.

You are in denial Cindy, and you are intentionally hurting your mother.

My WH is exactly like that too. My sons, at 6 and 9 when he left, knew this too. They wouldn't ever tell him that they were mad at him for abandoning them. They won't speak truthfully to him, but they always do with me, because they know where they are SAFE.


In my case, this is exactly what has happened. No one stood up to him.

Cyndy, it isn't about having a relationship with your father, it is about supporting his choice in committing adultery. You did that by supporting his affairage.

My mom recently had an affair. She left my father. I didn't know about MB back then, and I am ashamed(Yes ASHAMED) at my behaviour. I didn't support the affair, but I didn't actively speak out against it either. When I found MB, I realised my mistake, and I rectified it. How? I told my mom that I would no longer go to her home, where she lived with OM. That I wouldn't allow my children to go there either. That I wouldn't ever speak to OM. And I remember refusing a ride, in winter, to work, because OM's van was going to be used. She got mad at ME for putting HER in that position. But I made my choice. I would continue to have a relationship with my mother WITHOUT accepting her ADULTERY choices. Her affair actually ended within 6 months of me making my stand, because my sister, and brother also followed suit. She realised that by choosing her OM, she would lose her family. The affair was no longer a good option for her.

Now, I'm not saying that anything that you do will get your dad to end his adultery. What I am saying is that your inaction is contributing to him staying in the mess he has created.

You need to support your mom by not blindly supporting your dad's choices. You can't un-ring the bell. What you can do is apologize for supporting this sham of a new marriage, and not have any type of relationship with OW.

And NOTHING your mom did or didn't do in her marriage makes what your dad did okay. My dad beat my mom when I was a child, and I still didn't support her choice to have an affair. If she wanted to leave, she should have gotten a divorce before she chose to date again.

Stick around and read through the articles, and threads, if for no other reason than to understand your mom. I think she is one of the strongest women out there. I know that I wouldn't be holding it together as well as she is, had I just found all of this out.

Mulan, thank you for your words. As always, you have helped me in my own personal recovery. I cried when I read your words about still loving your WH. It made me feel like I wasn't alone, and I could still get through this even with that love. That I'm okay.

I don't even know what some of those words mean. What is gaslighting? What lies did I tell? How have I deceived her? She told us to NEVER talk about him. So I respected her wishes. It made me sick to keep that secret. My brother and I chose to keep the marriage a secret because at the time any mere mention of his name would cause such major anxiety that I just felt worried that the news would have sent her to the hospital again. I had a very real fear of that. She has a past history of acting suicidal and spent time in a hospital due to this whole situation. I was scared. I'm sorry. But, I guess I'm a bad person.

Why should I have to lay out a plan for her to heal? I've tried. I've tried to help her re-finance her house. I've talked to her. I've tried visiting as much as I can. I tried to talk to her and listen to her about this whole situation. I just tried to support her work, her friends, etc. Maybe that wans't enough. In the end, it isn't MY plan. It has to be her plan and her desire to get well and find a way to heal from all of this.

I should never be made to choose between them. I've chosen both of them. I have reconciled the past with XH, but that is not the same as forgiving. We've moved beyond it. Just like I've been trying to maintain a relationship with my mother. Choosing both means I and my grandchildren deserve to know their family.

You don't know me at all. And I find your comments disgusting.

Cyndyk,

I am more in your position than your mothers (my mother was the one who had the affair and remarried 3 weeks after she divorced my dad), I was 27 years old when it happened. I don't even like my dad and I am estranged from him, unlike you who is still in contact with your mother (the 'BS')

While I still believe the WS has the right to be in my child's life (he will always have his grandmother), I don't understand your support for the affair marriage, I really don't. I'm sorry. I follow the same rules as Scotland and the affair man will never even meet my child or be a part of his life.

You intentionally and deliberately supported the annihilation of your family, your mother, and now his affairage. As a betrayed person ... this is the worst ... I mean the worst thing anyone can do.

We understand your reasons ... there are no excuses. You were a grown woman who made grown woman choices. They have grave consequences.

When you stood there at that wedding, what was your conscience saying to you? If it was thinking of your mother that day, then I think you know what needs to be done.

If my comments bother you, then I kindly ask you to keep reading what I write. I speak the truth, and only the truth. It is a stand against adultery, annihilation of families, and affairages.

You have been here for many years ... what have your learned?

I encourage you to help your mother heal from the gapping wound you have created. She is lying on the floor bleeding. You state you have lied to her for a long time ... how did that lying hurt your relationship all these years. Your mother couldn't heal because her intuition was telling her to follow the smell test.

Unfortunately she was smelling vile from her own children because she knew something deep inside of her was telling her "something is wrong here." She couldn't put her finger on it and you guys kept making her feel crazy. You gaslighted your mom in order for her to "move on". You held secrets to her life, and you tried to make her believe it was her fault. How long has your conscience been eating you? How long have your stood in the mirror growing older by the minute because you were part of destroying your mother?

You don't like what I write ... I suggest you keep reading.

Cyndy, if you were to stand up against OW, you should expect that your dad will choose her over you. Be prepared for that.

So, what am I supposed to do? Having a relationship with him means I have to tolerate the wife. You know what, I don't even like her. I find her annoying and immature. Will that finally make you all happy?

How am I supporting the "affair marriage" Am I supposed to just cut him off and never speak to him again?

My children were already a part of his life. THey are 7 and 5. How the F am I supposed to explain it to them? How also am I supposed to explain to my daughter whose grandmother couldn't sit through her recital because she had an anxiety attack over "the music". I had to LIE to my 7 year about that. This five years after a hospital visit, many anxiety attacks and all-out refusal to find a healthy way to deal with her emotional stress. THAT is not normal.

What should I tell my kids? Over and over, I don't feel comfortable leaving her with my children. I see the stress in her face. It feels terrible because, you know what, she IS a great mother and a great, smart person. I just see a person who is lost in the stress of this hell of a situation for over 10 years.

It is freakin' awful writing that. I already didn't know many of my maternal grandparents due to a family rift. I'm not doing that to my children. THough, I'm sorry, I feel like Mulan needs to get healthy. If she is in a "bloodbath", don't you think some counsel from a professional is in order?

I fully admit that I'm already on medication for anxiety and depression. I has likely saved my marriage and and made me a better mother. I just knew that suffering alone in the feelings was not working for me. I didn't have healthy relationships or thoughts about anyone.

I just feel the same for Mulan. It HURTS to write that.

x2

(((Mulan))))

You want to start feeling happy?

Live your values. Stand up for what is right. Stand up and do what is right. I guarentee you once that happens you won't need any medicine because your conscience will be free, and the 200 pound anchor will be lifted off your neck.

Another tip ... stop lying. Start telling the truth. You want to stop this adultery cycle, then let your children know how it works, how to stop it, and how to affair proof their life.

Another tip ... start living honestly with those you love. Hiding in fear of your father is a terrible anchor to carry, and a horrible way to live life.

I have many children and I can promise you this ... your children will mimic this behavior you live by 100%. Please live an honest life ... show those sweet babies integrity, honor, and character.

I promise you this ... your honesty above likely helped heal your mother tremendously. Stop the lies ... it is destroying your lives and then some!

Fine. I have no reason to standup to OW at this point. Why would I do that? It has nothing to do with me. You cannot pull me into this. You can't. While I'm an adult, isn't the first rule of divorce that you don't make the children choose? Even in the worst case scenario? That is ridiculous. But I guess no one seems to think that.

One more note ... Your dad did all of this. Think about your life is he hadn't committed adultery ... OH how different it would be.

Can you see how his adultery is destroying everything? It won't stop until honesty (radical honesty) is lived throughout everyone's lives.

This right here is tells me that you get it but can't be bothered to do the right and moral thing, those are your choices that you and your brother made.

You lied to your mother just like your adulterous father did, you claim that you knew that it would hurt her and yet you did anyway, hey just like your adulterous father did.

You stood their at a wedding that destroyed your mother's and thought nothing of it, like it was some little get together.

Obviously neither you nor your brother understand what those vows meant to be.

Do you see a trend starting here, the lies by omission, down playing what really went down, trying to turn it around where the hurt party is the one to blame.

Mulan don't you think you should be over with the pain that was dealt to you by now you know there is a "Be Done By Date" that you should adhere to.

It doesn't matter that when you find out that your spouse is cheating that your stomach drops and you have that weird up side down there but not there feeling that drops you to your knees.

And to know that the ones that witness this are there at "the wedding to celebrate your betrayal has to sting, I'm truly truly sorry for this added pain.

I hate to break it to you but you have already chosen, I think you know that too.

Oh boy. And the fact that Mulan hasn't come in to even say that I'm not selfish, terrible person, who, now according to others, am raising equally selfish, vile children, really speaks volumes. THanks a lot.

Ok, why is all of this my fault? Don't you see how we are ALL contributing to this? YEs, I'm angry and totally frustrated. I want to see mulan happy and productive. But some of this post-divorce depression and anxiety must be handled correctly. That is all I'm saying.

Expecting MY actions to make her happy and take care of business is really unreasonable.

So, if I were honestly worried about another suicide attempt and multiple calls to 911 if I told her the news, you really expect me to sit down and tell her? Would you risk that with your own mother. Oh, but of course you would, because you are all the most sane, and noble people. Not bitter at all.

You tell your father that you and your children will only have a relationship with him alone. You invite him to your home, sans OW, and he can see you and your children then.

As far as what you say to your children, you tell them the TRUTH. Yeppers, the TRUTH.

I would tell them about the affairs that your dad committed. That it caused the divorce to happen. That your mother still is hurt over it, and that it takes time for her heart to heal. That's how you deal with it.

You keep speaking about your mother needing to go seek professional help. She HAS. She IS following a professional's advice. Dr Harley. The man who started this website. The man who has helped MANY betrayed spouses SURVIVE their spouses affairs. We are telling you that she IS healing. That she IS doing this the right way. Your mother is still human. It's okay that she hurts. She WILL get through this. It takes TIME. As long as she is still making PROGRESS, than she is doing it the right way.

I hope that you NEVER experience the pain of adultery.

Do you and your DH read MB? Have you used any of the tools to make your marriage SPECTACULAR? Have a look around.

I am so sad to read this.

OH, hell no, am I going to tell my SEVEN year old anything. My poor brother already got blasted with affair stuff from the time he was 12. And I also go Affair Prevention books from Mulan for Christmas. Which I had to open -- in front of my husband - on our first Christmas together. No one seemed to think that was a problem. No one seemed to think it could be hurtful to do that in front of my husband. Thinks she could give them in private, no. How does that make my husband feel?

I teach my 7 year old, seven year old things like being respectiful and asking for help when you need it. I'm not going to teach her about affairs. Hell no.

No one has seemed to address this question.

I hate to say this cyndyk but you are showing signs of compartmentalizing things and from what I read here, not a good thing.

You say that you don't want to hurt your mom yet you see nothing wrong with having a relationship with the woman that was sleeping with your mother's husband, how can you sit there and claim you don't want to get involved yet there you are at the wedding cheering on this marriage.

Does it? So he'd dump you? You don't have a relationship with him at all then do you? I can't imagine having to kowtow to my dad like that.

People in real relationships tell the truth. They insist on good behaviour, they don't enable bad behaviour.

Stop being a chicken. If he chooses her, it doesn't mean you can't love him or offer to have a relationship with him based away from supporting his marriage and actions.



But Scotty, yes they did! YOU did!

Mulan did!

You were lighthouses for the wayward. You shone grace and refused to smile and nod at evil.

If everyone had supported you both, how much could have been done for the men who went astray?

It takes bravery to do what the two of you did, particularly doing it solo.

It grieves me to see the daughter of such a brave Plan Ber choosing cowardice and a relationship where has a fake smile for the new wife and lies for her dad.

You're worth more than that, Cynd.

And you do recognise your mothers stregnth.

You're being far more honest with her aren't you? Keep going and stop thinking you have to be a good, silent girl in the camp of the waywards.

You don't. No one should ask that 'tolerance' of you as a price for your love.

Well how long ago did she attempt to commit suicide?

.


You cannot control others ... you can only control yourself. The greatest gift you can give to your mother, your children, and your husband is honesty.

Since you have this "lying" capability down like a science, how's that working in all your relationships? Any chance you are keeping secrets from your husband? You admitted keeping them from your children, how about your husband?

I encourage you to read the thousands of threads on here ... there is a commonality to each. Their marriages were all destroyed by some form of lying. Dishonesty destroys all.

I'll address this. You handled it INCORRECTLY. She found out anyways, didn't she? And now, not only does she need to deal with the fact that you attended the wedding, and CELEBRATED the affairage, but you LIED to her about it to "protect" her.

You should look to yourself and see that you have learned to LIE. Where is ML with all of the articles on what children learn from adultery? One of the MAJOR things they learn is that lying is OKAY.

I teach my children about affairs because they can't protect themselves from things they don't know exist. This is the time to teach your children the difference between right and wrong. That's a lesson that your father obviously lacked in. Stop the cycle.

And sticking your head in the sand about it isn't going to make it go away. Do you think your children will never know what really happened? Isn't it your duty to guide them down the right path?

I can bet that a part of why Mulan is upset about how you and your brother could go to the wedding is because she thought she raised you with better values and morals than that.

Did your parents not raise you to believe that marriage was between only TWO people and that adultery is WRONG?

I would absolutely never lie to my mother. Never.

How on eartyh can you help her heal from the pain of betrayal with LIES?

You astound me.

Your mothers response to news of the wedding has been most rational and sane.

She expected it, but did not expect your brother and you to cheer it along.

And she's hurt. And you're ashamed.

That's the real reason you didn't want to tell her.

Shamefacedness.

So, I would really like Mulan to answer this. Am I really a lying person who keeps secrets from my husband? Would you like to tell them all the truth? You adore my husband. But maybe I'm not good enough for him. Am I really a giant diapointment and terrible mother?

And you right, I can't control others. I can't control XH from marrying someone else. And you know what, yea, I can't control if my mom calls 911 or attempts suicide. But you know, I guess that was a risk I don't want to take.

There's a lot of things you have said that haven't been addressed.

Like how you lied to your child about your mothers very real distress.

You've decided the pain of betrayal is inconvenient, so you preach denial (get a fake smile like me, Mom!) And lie about it.

If you're willing to lie about something as simple and unembarassing about your mother being (very naturally) in pain, then what else do you think its OK to lie about?

Are you one of those people who think the truth 'hurts people'?

No no. The truth will set you free.

From fake smiles and fear.

Were tipping into drama queen territory here.

If people's words affect you this deeply and are hitting your buttons, you should take some time to consider them rationally.

cyndyk please don't take this the wrong way but your post come across as a wayward justifying her affair, there is no rational reason to go to a wedding of someone who cheated on their spouse, they the cheated knows not one meaning of sacred wedding vows, how can they when both were involved in committing adultery, what are they celebrating? not the forsaking of others or cleaving nor in sickness or health.

Please just answer this question truthfully why did you go to that wedding knowing it would hurt your mother?

I don't lie about anything. The only "lie" I told is not telling her about the marriage.

You guys are all over me about this BUT she gave both of us real direction to NEVER speak his name.

Oh, but I guess I forgot to read between the lines.

If Mulan is allowed to love him for all eternity, why is all of this my fault.

Again, I would like to Mulan to publically vouch for my character. I know she is obviously angry about my not telling her about the marriage. But I'm not a liar.

I went to the wedding because I still loved XH. He raised me since I was 5. He wasn't a great husband to my mom, but he was a father figure to me.

And you know what, it was a mistake. I hated it. I honestly cried all weekend because I felt sick knowing that my mom was only five mile away. I felt SICK. We left at 11 pm and drove through tht night so we could get out of there fast. I hated being there.

Listen, you guys are mad at the wrong person. I have not handled this perfectly, but your accusations are getting out of hand.

Its not about keeping news of the marriage dark, as per plan B...

But she expected information about YOU. Your support for the marriage was hidden from her.

Hiding the truth is deceptive and misleading.

Please don't tell us we have to explain the difference between truth and lies to a grown woman.

Not in any one's post are we blaming you.


Contradiction right there, you lied, was caught in the lie and now you want to place the blame on your mom's hurt feelings.

Do any of you people have children? You are placing all of the lies and blame on US. We were stuck between a rock and hard place. Are you guys serious?

My brother and I agreed that we felt she was too emotionally fragile to handle the news. That is all. I "lied" about nothing else. I have NEVER ever lied to my mom ever.

Ok, fine, I wish I could go back and time and you tell her and risk the 911 calls and trips to the hosptial. Because that is so awesome for all. Ever have that happen to you? That was about the worst thing ever because, you know, I know she didn't belong in there. I wanted her to find a way to move past the anger. I didn't want to shy away from any of it.

She refused ALL of it. All of it. She basically said "no" to family therapy because without XH we are not a family. Even if she still has two children, Son in law and grandchildren who love her. I get that we are a "destroyed" family but she still has us and sometimes I feel liek that will never be remotely good enough.

OK. But you're still not handling it perfectly are you?

You're still handling it the same way.

And I have not been mad, nor has anyone else.

When I greeted you on this thread, I said it was your decision and I still believe that. Your decisions, your consequences.

But that wasn't good enough for you.

You wanted to continue your support of the waywards, but to either keep your mother in the dark or talk her into faking a nonchalance about it.

You wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

People are merely pointing out its not possible. Pick a decision and live with the consequences.

I don't fault you for not telling your mother about your father's wedding. I fault you for your choice in attending the wedding in the first place. As Mulan stated in this thread, once she found out about the wedding, and your parts in it, she thought about all of the lies that were told to her to "protect" her. It didn't do anything except have her find out about it now, and have to deal with it, as well as the betrayal.

Your mother is upset with you because you supported your Wayward father's affairage. Had you just known about the wedding, and not told her, do you think she would be as upset as she is now? I would think not. She's not mad at you because you didn't tell her about the wedding, instead she is hurt by the fact that you and your brother supported the wedding. Do you not see that?

And please, stop getting mad at your mother for not coming to your rescue here. You are an adult. We are adults. You can most certainly defend yourself.

We told you it is the lie of support. The betrayal, the deceit, and the gaslighting that is so detrimental here.

Yes she told you not to tell ... the issue isn't that it is the fact you 100% supported the affairage and then lied to her about the support. Like Indie said ... your mom is in shock and awe because she raised you with character, integrity, and honor and what you did goes against the core of those beliefs.

I am sorry you are also self deceiving ... you didn't just lie about the wedding. You are lying to your children, to your father, to his OW, and still to Mulan. It is called lies by omission. And that is a very dangerous game to play, especially when the lies are from within and are altering your life.

Does this drama queen stuff actually work on some people?

We are not mad at you.

But your blame shifting the facts about lying to your mother about the marriage, going to the wedding and for some reason thinking that your mother's pain from her husband that lied to her face, hurt her deliberately, told her in oh so many ways that she was worthless to him.............


You just did the same thing when you and your brother went to that wedding you basically told your mother that you didn't care about what happened to her.

And that comment about her loving him for ever, comes across as some one who doesn't understand that just because some one hurt you that the love will die right then and there.

Cyndy, you are learning a true fact about Marriage Builders. It ain't easy being here. Now, do you understand how your mother has been STRONG? She has survived and THRIVED because of this place. Because of the things she has learned here. She is an amazingly strong person who is HURTING. She is wounded. She needs time to HEAL. This information about the wedding, and your support of it, is like ripping off a scab. She needs time to heal again.

When she was hurting, she came here, for support. That is how she chose to deal with it. And I think she has done quite well with it.

Mulan,

How can we help you heal with this latest revelation? What can we do to support you? I am so sorry you are in this horrible place ... I thank you greatly for bringing the reality of this affairage to light. So many of us BS know we will likely see the same fate as you, and it is gut wrenching and the worse form of cruelty.

{{{{{{MULAN}}}}}}}

Oh, and BTW, I DO have children, and the fact that my WH lives with OW and my children have to have ANY interactions with her KILLS me. I have NO CHOICE. I couldn't protect my children, who are 9 and 11 now(they were 6 and 9 when their father abandoned them to live with his OW and her daughter), from OW. The best way I protect them is by telling them the TRUTH about who she is and what she did, and continues to do.

Cyndy, nobody is saying it is your fault. I would like to caution you about your father's affair partner, though. My father married his affair partner, too. And when he died that b burned all the family photos he had and her hatred of our family really came out, in many ways.

It was disgusting, and surreal.

Nobody who agrees to marry an affair partner has ANY respect for the children, and I suggest you separate yourself from this mess before you go through the hell I went through in dealing with the spouse of your deceased parent. I was friendly with this woman for 25 years, but once my dad was gone, she was pure hell for my family. Pure hell! Pictures? Really? How hard would it be to give his children family photos? Nope, she burned them in the fireplace with her high school boyfriend, and called me to taunt me, as if I'd done something wrong. By being his daughter.

Cindy,

The greatest abuse and the worse form of cruelty is watching the man you love chose another woman (who isn't ever the original adultery partner).

As betrayed spouses our greatest hope is when the adultery dies a natural death the wayward will come home and put the family back together.

Then there are those waywards who would rather keep their family destroyed by marrying another.

Mulan never got a vote in this. She would have done whatever it took to save your family. Look at her pain. All she wanted was her husband to come home and be a family. Can you look at your husband and see him with another woman, or another woman raising your children? Try and put yourself in those shoes ... then walk in your mother's shoes.

Your father is one of the cruelest and most abusive waywards. That is a fact ... that cruelty is a knife straight into Mulan's heart. There isn't enough time on this earth to heal that kind of wound.

Please walk in her shoes one day ... try to feel life with your husband in another woman's arms.

cyndy,

What I am hearing is almost bitterness towards your mother for having to endure her fragile emotional health...

How about if she had been beaten or raped repeated by your father? Would you support him then? Would you complain about being "put in the middle" then?

What most people who haven't been a victim to infidelity don't "get" is how very abusive infidelity is to the BS. What your father did to her was AS BAD or WORSE than if he had been beating her for 10 years.

I have an aunt that I recently learned has been enduring her H's infidelity on and off for the last ten years. I also learned that she is suicidal and hasn't been coping well and that her children are very concerned for her. Again, people just do not understand how damaging and abusive infidelity it is. It is simply one of the cruelest things you can do to another human.

You can keep telling us you are sympathetic to your mother's pain but it is very clear to me that YOU DON'T GET IT.

Wow. Just wow. I have four adult children and I can assure you that none of them would blatantly disrespect me the way you have disrespected your mom. My husband had an affair in 2002 and my youngest son tried to tell me to just get over it but he was also 17 at the time. He has apologized to me several times since then.

No Cyndyk, you didn't JUST not tell her, you did much worse than that. You actually CHOSE to attend the wedding and celebrate it. You chose to give this man, who nearly destroyed your mother, your support vs. choosing to support your mother and make a stand against adultery. The wedding was bad enough, but now Mulan gets to deal with the fact that her children chose to betray her too. The clock on her grief just started over.

Wanna make it right? Tell your dad the truth about the effect his adultery has had on you as a child.

Another thought-- these things tend to cycle in families, unless the cycle is broken. I hope you never have to experience betrayal in your life by your husband, and especially by one of your children.

I know your mom loves you and she will eventually forgive you. I just hope you realize how much damage you caused and start making it right before its too late.

Please answer this, WHO IS ACTUALLY FULLY SUPPORTING YOUR MUM??

Your not supporting your mum your choosing a lying sack of poop over your mother, she didn't do anything wrong yet you place all the blame on her.

Reading your responses make me phisically sick and feel so sad for your mum who has been left to rot alone while you and your brother we're far too concerned about supporting your father ridiculous wedding.

How on earth can you say he is a good father. Where in all of this did he make the healthy choices for his family?? He is a selfish man and needs to see the consequences of his actions.

Your whole family is just rolling over and accepting watching a train wreck without doing anything to help. That is immoral and plain wrong.

Why can't you just stand up for what is right?

If Mulans own children won't stand up for her then I can understand why no one else has.

I dont care how much you love your father he's a monster for what he put your mum through if you choose to stick by someone like that then go ahead but stop judging the pain your mother is going through, her recovery will take longer due to the immense LACK of support.

And your children should not be exposed to adulterous home wrecking skanks or a man who abandons his family for a bit of tail. I wouldn't let my kids around people like that family or not. Does your father have to actually murder someone before you see his mistakes?

Oh and as far as the book your mum gave it was actually the smart thing to do. People who think that they are never going to have an affair are the people more likely to have one. Everyone is capable of having an affair the people who understand how affairs happen and put measures in place to protect their marriage are the people who dont have affairs.

But on the other hand your husband has just witnesses you forgiving a blatant adulterer so that doesent exactly sent the right message to stop him from one day being like your father.

Boy- this is awesome. It is clear we will never agree about anyrhing esp since I 100 percent disagree with everything directed at me. I feel terrible about the situation- the wedding, her finding out, everything. I didnt know what to do.

I really need to leave since this is not productive at all. Im actually still waiting for Mulans response. If she blasts me the same wsy I guess Ill know my place.

I believe the most important things posted by Cyndyk were:




Cyndyk,
I hear the grief in your posts. I am sorry for the many losses you have experienced because of your father�s adultery and the destruction of what was once your family.

I am shocked by the responses you have received here. You are a VICTIM of divorce. As I read through this thread, all I could think of were my dear children and how horrified I would be if they were attacked this way�EVEN IF they had made all the same choices you have concerning your parents.

I remember when Mulan was suicidal. My husband posted to her through the night with great concern for her well-being. She was completely quiet for several months after that, and many of us were so worried about her. We had no idea whether she was dead or alive. So YES, I DO understand your concern about telling her of the remarriage.

And every time the children of a BS in a dark Plan B tell the BS about the goings-on of a WS, we always tell them to firm up their boundaries and make it CLEAR to their children that they want to hear NOTHING. So, YES, I DO understand your reason for not telling her. You were respecting her wishes (respecting her Plan B). Some could argue that this was big news and she should have been informed, but that is a matter of opinion and doesn�t warrant the beating you have taken here.

Here is where it gets tough, Cyndyk. Whether you saw it this way or not, attending the wedding was a betrayal to your mother and it cut very deeply. The WS marrying the affair partner is most certainly the BS�s WORST nightmare. And the nightmare gets worse when the children become apart of that "sacred" celebration.

The OW has taken a lot from me. But she NEVER took my name. There is something very raw about another woman carrying YOUR name. Mrs. WH. There are so many things that happen during adultery and afterward that continue to cut the BS�s heart into shreds.

This is why you hear everyone crying�.COMPASSION. They want you to understand that which you cannot so that you will stop hurting your mother. Before my husband�s adultery, I am not sure I would have understoond the wrongs that have been done by your attending this wedding and continuing to have a relationship with OW.

But if you want to help your mother, you have got to trust her and the rest of us when we say your attendance there was DEVASTATING.

I�ll be back with more�.

I think that cycle has taken root PrincessMeggy by the foggy and wayward enabling that has already occurred.




NB28, more than likely it will be her husband using that book by the anger she has towards her mother the BS. You hurt your mom and yet you seem to blame her for reacting to that hurt.

Does your mum have to actually commit suicide before you wake up and get the backbone to stand up for what is right.

Tell me what would you have done if your mum had actually succeeded at committing suicide. Would you still be forgiving and accomodsting to your father and his skank??

Isnt It enough that your mum was in so much pain she considered suicide to make you see how desperate she is for support??

If her own children won't stand up for her please tell me WHO will??

And if she doesn't act in the exact way you expect, what will you do? Cut HER off? Because obviously, not standing up supporting your lack of compassion, and lying towards your MOTHER is much worse than committing ADULTERY.

Don't make your mother choose her own personal recovery, and support HERE over her relationship with YOU. That is UNFAIR, and you would be removing the ONLY people who understand her and can actually HELP her through this. We support your mother.

You can't turn back time. What you CAN do is tell your father that from this day forward, you will NOT support his affairage. That you CAN do. And that will START to help your mother heal. And stop lying to those children. Tell them things, in an age appropriate way, and teach them to be productive members of society by having good morals and values.

Thank you "bear" - I really appreciate your words. I do understand het devastation around the wedding and I feel awful about. I hated every minute of it. I really did.

I guess I better send my husbsnd here because all of my lying and cheating will take it toll soon. Unbelieveable.

CyndyK

Have you ever expressed to your father that his actions are horrific??

Cyndyk,

I agree with you that it seems that Mulan is "stuck" in her anger. It permeates just about every post she has made for a very long time.

But there are stages to grief, and one is anger. Each of us travel through those stages at different rates and each of us are equipped with varying degrees and styles of coping skills.

Your mother is grieving many things, and must walk through the stages of grief on each of those things. She grieves the loss of:

the man she loved and married and thought would be her life partner

the family she proudly invested her heart and soul into

the woman she thought she was (the image she had of herself as a loved wife raising a great family)

the life of being grandparents together and having that lifetime connection and heritage

the financial security that made it possible for her to invest in her family instead of her career for decades

and so, so much more....

Maybe Mulan is progressing through these stages at a snail's pace. I don't know. I know that she still aches deeply for all she has lost.

I hear you saying that she cannot see the blessings in front of her (my paraphrasing, not your exact words)because she is "stuck in her anger". Trauma tends to do that to you, especially when it has been long term, which is the case with serial adulterers such as your father.

Be back with more...

Then you are withholding valuable information from us. It makes the playing field unlevel, do you understand that? We can't know where you're coming from if you don't tell us where you're coming from, which includes your observations and perspectives. Knowing your complete history will help us respond to you. You understand that we are very protective of Mulan, correct? We would like to hear what you have to say.

Funny how she can direct all this anger towards her mother but just says the wayward father is great and he made some mistakes.

Mistakes and cheating doesn't even belong in the same sentence.


Go ahead and run away because you don't want to hear the truth, sad way to live running from the truth, lying because you don't want to hurt some one.

Funny how you didn't lying to your mother, but it's ok to lie to your father and support his affair marriage, hey there is no getting away from it, you would rather compromise yourself hurt your mom, by supporting a lying cheating human being.

While it is true that Cyndy is a victim of divorce, victims still make choices. And those choices still have consequences. Can't hide behind the label of victim if you continue to harm others. It's important to understand that choices are made everyday, and you can change what you do TODAY, and TOMORROW, but not yesterday.

And as Marital pointed out, we are protecting Mulan.

Whenever we send a BS out into the world, we tell them that they should imagine us behind them, supporting them. When you are on this forum, you will see that come through when someone attempts to harm one of our most esteemed members. I count Mulan as one of them.

X2

Exactly my thoughts, why is it easy for you to criticise your mums pain but dismiss your fathers assault on her???

If you are as fair and neutral as your stating then it's time to go have a talk with your dear daddy and give your mum a brake.

I would never tell you that you shouldn't feel that way. Of COURSE you should. When you committed to him in marriage, you committed for life. Did you know that wolves mate for life? You are like a wolf who has lost their mate. {{{Mulan}}}

Are you content? I would like to see you get to that place. Where Life didn't exactly deliver what you'd hoped, but things are...okay. I don't think you are.

Cyndy, if you want Mulan's response, call her!

I was 11 when my father married the ho, so of course I did not attend, but I learned after his death when 'family' were attempting to reconcile what the ho did with photos that my uncle (his brother) was best man at the wedding. I wish I knew that at the funeral, I hugged the idiot instead of punching him.

I was making dinner and helping my kids with their homework! Geesh.

Yes- I have had extensive conversations with him. I feel very confident that I know the perspective from each side. XH is certainly no angel and Ive told him that.

I do understand the hurt pain and crushing blow. I just feel like it has consumed her life for the last 10 years and prevented her from enjoying time with anyone else.

Maybe you should keep reading. I don't think anyone is trying to be patronizing. I think they're trying to educate Mulan's daughter.

cyndyk,

Let's be honest. I have a saying that I tell many people. " You can try to lie me but you can never lie to yourself." You might even get away with the lie you told me but in reality it's all about YOUR conscious.

How do you feel about what your Dad did to your mother?
Do you think she deserved it?
What do you think about people that commit adultery?
Would you commit adultery?

If you are as honest with us in what I believe your conscious tells you the answers probably go something like this:

I think it was pretty crappy what Dad did to Mom. She definitely did NOT deserve what he did to her. I've watched how his affair has nearly destroyed her. In fact, she is not the same person she used to be.

Committing adultery is WRONG. Hell, it's even one of the 10 commandments (I consider two - thou shall not covet). People that commit adultery are selfish and are only thinking of themselves.
I would NOT ever in my lifetime commit adultery. I would NOT do that to my husband or my kids.

So far am I pretty accurate in your thinking?

Okay, now let me give you the piece of the puzzle that you don't have.....

(con't next post)

I faced a similar situation when I was very young, only it was one generation removed.

At the age of oh-I-don't-know maybe 60 or 70, my grandma, who had been widowed for many years, married her former adultery partner. She had been off committing vile and immoral acts while my grandfather (whom I never met) was on his deathbed. My dad, still in his teens, had to call her up and insist she leave her tryst just before Grandpa died.

All this was long before I was born, and even though I believed adultery was wrong, I thought of myself as being sweet and open-minded to be so accepting of "Grandpa K" when I met him. Had I stumbled across a place like this at that time, I would have been reamed. I would also have had a hard time understanding the connection between the past transgression of adultery, and the current marriage. Just let bygones be bygones, and the past stay in the past.

It was not an easy experience learning first-hand how wrong I was. "Grandpa K" can be VERY VERY GLAD that he met my younger self and not the current me. Though I have no anger toward my own dear husband, or any of my many friends who are repentant former waywards, I am always angry when an active adulterer rips apart another family for their own selfish lust.

I will always take a stand for marriage.

Being so close to an adulterous relationship without taking a stand has left an imprint on you. I know it's also been difficult for you, and your father should never have put you in that predicament in the first place. Ultimately this all traces back to his choice to indulge in infidelity.

At any point in this, you can choose to take a new direction in your interactions with your dad. You can love him without accepting his adultery. Even though it will rock the boat, it's the right thing to do.

Cyndy, I apologize to you if I hurt you. My way of posting sometimes comes across harsher than I intend. Tone gets taken out when you type.

I think a HUGE part of your treatment here is because ALL of us Betrayed spouses have had people in our families, and real lives support the WAYWARD spouse by NOT denouncing the affair. Maybe some of my own anger towards people who don't stand up against affairs was transferred onto you. For that, I am truly sorry. I just hope that you took away from this something that may help you, and your mother heal.

I applaud you for sticking around. Many get treated less harshly than you and run for the hills.

I find this an interesting choice of words. And I think it voided the point you were trying to make. Just saying.

We're not mad at you, sweetie.

Read your post again. You're admitting that you feel terrible about the very thing we're saying your mom feels terrible about!

You're in a bad spot, cyndy. You need to talk to your mom. I would suggest you do so in person. Not on a website. I'm not running you off or sending you away - I think you and your mom need to spend some Mom/Cyndi face-to-face time together.

Cyndyk,

My DIL was in the same position as you. Her father divorced his wife and married his affair partner. Sadly, she was still young enough that she had to live in their home part of the time.

After several years, she made the choice to place healthy boundaries in her life. She told her father how much his adultery/divorce hurt her and that she could no longer have a relationship with OW. She told him that she loved him and wanted him in her life. He told her they were a packaged deal and then proceeded to cut my dear DIL out of his life. After a few months, as her wedding to my son approached, he did make contact with DIL. They now go out to lunch and such to keep in touch. It is her way of enforcing healthy boundaries in her relationship with him and living out her belief that adultery is wrong.

I am so proud of DIL. It took a lot of courage to first, examine how her thinking had been foggy/confused/twisted by those she trusted; and second, to state her new boundary and then enforce it. She knew she was risking her own father not walking her down the isle at her wedding, yet she still made the choice to stand for what is right. THAT is integrity. THAT is supporting her mother while still having a relationship with her father.

I think the consensus here is that you blew it with your father's wedding. I'm sure you get that impression by now. LOL! But you have many future choices to make. I challenge you to re-examine your own thinking about what you believe and how you lived that out.

Affairs do destroy you from the inside out. Have you ever cried so much you that your heart hurt (literally) and that you thought your heart may give out. Or that your throat becomes so raw from all the crying that you can barely speak. How about having nightmares for weeks and somedays managing only 2-3 hours of sleep. How about having headaches so bad that your hands shake and you can barely function in life. The pain is very real and no matter what you do you cannot make it go away. You start to think dark thoughts because you don't feel strong enough to move forward or because you feel so alone. And you scream to yourself "why doesn't anybody understand?"

And I'm going to tell you...people here at MB understand because they've lived it. And until you have your spouse cheat on you, you will NEVER understand the excruciating pain that exists, you can only approximate what you think your mother has endured.

So, back to what your conscious tells you. You know adultery is wrong, you've seen how it's affected your family. So why not speak your conscious. Speak the TRUTH. Tell your Dad, "Dad, I think what you did to Mom was pretty crappy (and then some - see above). I don't even like your new wife. I can't believe you destroyed our family and the wonderful woman Mom used to be. I'm not going to condone your actions!"

The fact that you won't say what you're probably thinking makes you a coward. And guess what, when you fail to speak the truth, that also makes it a lie by omission. Your behavior indicates that you condone the actions of your father. Because there is a huge difference between your actions (supporting the affairage of Dad and OW) and what you believe.

So how do you think your mother feels? She probably feels that deep down inside of you that you probably agree with her. But the fact that you won't speak what you believe to be your personal truth comes across as a lack of support.
Mulan: "Hell, If I can't rely on my own flesh and blood to support me, then who or what else can I rely on in life."
Don't you find it odd that more strangers have shown more support for your mother than her own kids. That speaks volumes. What are you going to do to change that?

cyndyk,

Not sure if you realize it, but most honest faithful to their vows spouses view their marriage as a living breathing entity, your father killed that by having an affair with multiple women at his job.

He murdered his own marriage when he did this. Left the dead body with Mulan.

My point is in this is that you keep stating that it was 10 yrs ago and all should be forgotten.

Now would you tell your best friend who has lost her child that it's been 10 years she should be over it, she still has to more or one of the way.

Would you tell that same friend that the rape happened 10 yrs ago she should be ok now.

Their is no time limit on grief and for you to disregard Mulan's pain in post after post stating that she should see your side of it is kind of selfish.

Those words come from the position of neutrality that it seems you wish to maintain.

What has your father told you to explain his workplace-based affairs that took place over longer than 10 years? What does he say that makes you able to see his perspective?

And about that 10 years issue: you write as if an affair happened 10 years ago and your mother has focused on this event ever since. Yet it seems that there was no one, single affair. It is true that your mother began writing on this forum just over 10 years ago when she began to sit up and protest about what she had been putting up with, but the affairs - emotional affairs, dating other women right in front of her face, and probably physical affairs, with colleagues - continued right up until the day in early 2008 that your father petitioned for divorce.

This isn't something that happened 10 years ago; it is something that happened continually for something like 25 years of their marriage - and then was topped off with a swift re-marriage, which she only found out about very recently.

So when you say

you are dismissing and diminishing the extent of what she really has been through. You know that this was not a one-off event from 10 years ago, but you paint it as such. Why do you do that?

Thank you for this post. I do feel sick with how she feels I do. I have had many sleepness nights worrying for her and her future. I didn't handle things the way you all feel I should have, but I always tried to have her best intrest at heart.

She can grieve however long she wants.That is not my decision. I just honestly feel like she is "stuck" and that is frustrating. It is frustrating as a daughter and her friend. I guess I honestly feel tired re-hashing the same old stuff for over 10 years. I admit it -- I'm tired of hearing about it. I feel like I got it the first time a long time ago. I feel her pain and just want her to be in a healthy, emotional place. She does deserve that.

Maybe I didn't handle things the way you all wanted me to. But I still stand by my decision that it isn't anyone's place to tell me, the "child" in the sitation, who to pick, whatever their sitation.

I feel like all the anger in this thread is directed toward me. Fine -- I should have told her. But I have very real reasons for not doing so (outside of her telling me not to).

At one point do you start finding healthier ways to move past the anger? How long is she going to be "stuck"? Our lives are quickly passing by, esp the grandchildren. They don't know her, really.And it makes me sad.

I just feel like based on her not wanting her to tell us anything. I also felt like I was living a "lie" -- which according to you all, I guess I was. I couldn't tell her if I were visiting him, talking to him, etc. I just had to let her comments of "he blew you all off and no one has a relationship with us anymore" to rest.

I will not agree with your point-of-view that I cannot or should not have a relationship with him. For my brother, esp. The guy isn't perfect. I'm not perfect and neither is my mother. We all have made mistakes (some bigger than others) that have contributed to the demise of this family.

Truly, I dont think I know the full extent of what happened in that house. I have Mulan's version and his. I also have my brothers and from his point-of-view, it is a damed miracle he didn't move away from both of them.

He is honestly the true victim of this whole damn thing.

Anyway, I am sorry that my attempts to make you re-think your responses to your mother's grief have been perceived as attacking you. It was never my intention to attack you and so I will stop posting now.

I want to see Mulan get over/round/through this horror in her life and I hope she takes immediate steps to distance herself further from it so that her recovery can begin. I hope also that she, you and your brother can have good relationships with each other.

I just don't appreciate being called a liar. I'm not a liar. I also don't appreciate people telling me that I will likely continue the "cycle of lying" and my husband better read those books because he will "need them".

From that situation, I was really mad when she sent me those books and I opened them publically. Imagine how my husband feels? IF she wanted to give them to me in private, I understand. It was just embarrassing and inappropriate. And it made my husband feel like crap.

Cyndy, like SMB, I sympathize with you terribly. I know how painful it must be to see your mother stuck. I have personally grown impatient with her over the years and regret my lack of compassion for her.

I would like to address the above statement. No person is perfect, as you say. But not everyone is corrupt so there is no moral equivalence between your mother and father. We can't dismiss adultery and abandonment of one's spouse as "no one's perfect." That is to define deviancy down by minimizing a crime. Your mother, on the other hand, did not commit a crime against your father.

My own father was similarly corrupt so I understand the tapdancing it takes to defend the indefensible. I finally realized one day that if there is really nothing wrong with my father then I shouldn't have to be doing all this tap dancing to justify him. I stopped doing it and just admitted he was corrupt and greatly minimized my dealings with him. I have no desire to have a corrupt individual in my life and have always been at great peace with that decision. I refuse to force myself to hold my stomach around someone who makes me sick.


There is not a "version" of the truth because truth is not based on a perspective; it is based on reality. There is one truth. And you have enough facts to arrive at the truth. The truth [not a "version"] is that your dad committed adultery and would not change his life in a way that made it possible to recover the marriage. He then left your mother and got married 4 short months after the divorce.

Your mother is the victim here. And yes, so are you and your brother. But there is no "version" of truth. You know the truth.

Minimizing this to a "he said, she said" is a denial of the reality of the situation. You don't need anyone's "version" to know truth; you have the facts. While I realize your mother was not perfect, she did not commit adultery against your father. Your father did that to your mother.

Actually, look at as a gift of love. Those books are a great gift for anyone. Your mother never wants you to have to experience her pain. Her giving you those books is a step to ensuring that you never have to experience the devastation that she has endured. Look from her perspective rather than just you own and your insight will pay huge dividends. Adultery is a nasty subject nobody wants to talk about. But the more we talk and understand the more chance we have to stop the devastation of families that results when someone commits adultery.

And Cyndy, I would really think about SC's words here. Moral neutrality is not a virtue, it is a serious liability. It is a sign of moral cowardice at best and a lack of conscience at worst. Anytime in my life that I have been a moral coward by playing the moral neutrality game, I have lived to regret it. It is a cold cruel game that we always apply to others and NEVER to ourselves. When it is our own ox getting gored, we tend to be moral absolutes, so I would be really careful about playing that game with your mother. If I were your mother, I would rightly resent it. And it does not help your father in the least.

I'm not saying she is corrupt. He wasn't perfect. He "started it" and that is terrible. I feel for her paint there, I do. But I'm saying that I've grown frustrated with the response over the years, after it all ended.

However, re: the version of the truth. You DO come to the truth by listening to both sides. Then, you make your own conclusion. I don't know - I don't want to go into my thoughts on the whole situation (cheating,affairs, et) because I've never said those to Mulan personally and I don't want to bring that out here when she isn't in front of me. Apparently, again, that makes me cowardly, but I just don't want to go there.

I'm just frustrated because the level of anger has not diminished at all in the 8 years since I found out. By then, it all had been going on for several years prior to that.

I guess, to me, is when do you stop letting some apparent a-hole consume your life. You may still love him and that is fine, but letting it consume your life is frustrating to me. Esp since I feel like it really prevents her from being the person she wants to be.

Hi Cyndy,

Welcome to MB!

We are a pretty friendly forum as you can tell.....

I'm sorry you've been slammed by so many posters. I disagree with many of the comments that have been directed toward you.

I watched my mom stay in an adulterous marriage way beyond the length of time Dr. Harley recommends. Years actually, just like your mom. Staying in that trauma for years had a devastating result on her mental health, just as it did for your own mom. My mom has been suicidal over the past 5 years and has been admitted to the hospital for this condition also. So, yes, I know where you are coming from when you beg your mom to get the mental help she needs for dealing with her Post-Tramatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). My moms anxiety prevents her from going to the grocery and even prevents her from seeing her own grandchildrens recitals too. (just again last week) I still find myself grieving and praying that God would allow me to have a normal mother/son relationship, rather than me having to parent my mother all the time.

I know my mom struggles greatly from her PTSD, but that doesn't mean I don't want and need a mom.... I hear that in your posts too.

I was not a part of the adultery that occured in my mom's marriage, but I have suffered, just as all children of divorce, many far reaching consequences.
These consequences, I'm sure, will reach to the end of my days.
I've said many times that divorce and/or adultery are the gifts that never stop giving.

The last thought I have;

It sounds to me like you respected you mothers wishes by not discussing anything about your father with her. I'm sure that was a difficult decision on your part. I just wish your mother would vouch for your charachter, because I know from the back story that you have been there for her through thick and thin.

Hang in there kiddo.

This is not a time for me to anything other than neutral. I'm sorry. I will totally disagree with you there. I'm no moral coward. Give me a freaking break.

I don't agree with XH initial actions that got us all here and I don't agree with some of Mulan's actions now. I don't.

Saying that "moral neutrality" is actually immoral is really ridiculous. Again, why should I have to choose? He is my brother's only father and really, outside of my mother, he has no famiily. If he wants to reconcile with XH and they can find a way to move forward, that is between my brother and them.

I actually find it to be incredibly moral to be able to have some sort of normal relationship with either one despite the circumstances.

This is not my place. Even if my husband totally cheated on me, i would never in a million years expect my daughters to cut off their relationship with him. He is still their father and that relationship is totally separate from the one he has with me. I would never put my kids in that type of spot. That is so disgusting and it causes deep emotional problems with the children feeling uncomfortable around everyone and not being able to please anyone. Read any divorce book and this is rule number one.

Thank you. I really appreciate your post. What you wrote is really how I feel.

My point is that you don't come to the truth by listening to perspectives, but by looking at the facts. What if both perspectives are false? Then your conclusion is wrong. In your situation, you know the facts of the matter so there is no reason to rely upon the perspectives of your parents.


I understand you are frustrated and know it is painful to see her like this. I listened to my own mother's pain for longer than you have and it was painful to see her so hurt. But denying the cause of her pain did not help her overcome it. And when I grew up, I realized how I had compounded her pain by dismissing it. I regret doing that to her. I could not go back and change my inappropriate dismissal but I could tell her I was so very sorry for my callousness. I feel badly today that I added to her pain. Like you, I relied on "perspectives" and it was much easier to dismiss the whole sordid saga as a he-said, she-said. It made it easier for me. It made it horrible for my mother.

I do not feel badly that I distanced myself from my father, who remained corrupt until the day he died.

Yes, it is immoral. Moral neutrality is the abandonment of principles for the purpose of expediancy. And believe me, I understand the tempatation to pretend that nothing is wrong. But you have not applied that same moral neutrality to your mother. You don't overlook her behavior at all while you overlook - and minimize your father's adultery and abandonment.


I don't see how. As a person who also had a corrupt father, I found I couldn't be around him without abandoning my own principles. I see nothing moral about hanging out with someone who is corrupt just because they are a relative. Does that really make sense?


Did you know that most daughters do cut off their relationships with their fathers when they commit adultery and abandon the marriage? Same thing with sons. We see it all the time here. It is because it is so morally offensive. Your dad's behavior was just as much an assault on your family as it was on your mother. It wasn't just your mother that your dad betrayed. He betrayed you and your brother too.

Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, has been in this business for 40 years and he will tell you that affairs normally ruin the relationship between the cheater and his children for life. [unless the cheater repents] That is the rule, not the exception.

Check out these radio clips from the radio show, this issue comes up quite often:

Dr Harley: "its one of the most common consequences of adultery" [the children will not speak the adulterous parent again.] "It doesn't take a genius to know that adultery is wrong. The reason the kids won't talk to the dad is because he tries to justify the affair."

radio show where children won't speak to wayward father, go to 6:00 in http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3570

Man talks to Dr Harley about how his affair wrecked his relationship with his children: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2233

I'm not condoning his behavior. We've hashed that out. I always supported my mother until recently. When she sent me long emails, blasting my character I had to put a stop to that. I understand why she was upset. The wedding is a heartbreaker. But I felt that I was doing what she wanted me to do. She is crushed. I get that.

But the verbal assalts will not be tolerated.

Do you want me to leave him? I don't want to leave either person. If I want to have a relationship with him, it is my choice. Though, to be honest, I don't even see or talk to him that much at all.

I just wish people would understand that its my choice who to have a relationship, not anyone else. I have supported Mulan for a long time.I understand why she is angry re> the marriage.

I was angry at XH for a long time. But about five years ago, we managed to reconcile. I never condoned anyone's behavior. But,what do you want me to do, become one of Harley's statistics?

I understand how she can see my relationship with him as hurtful or demoralizing. I do get that. That is why for a long time I never said anything. Not once. I just always thought it would be ok and what she wanted for us to have a relationship with him. I just stand by the notion that I will not choose between the two. I wont.

I choose both. I think I've been pretty clear.

Hi Cyndy

It saddens me to read the grief and frustration in your and your mother's posts. I can only imagine what it feels like for the both of you. You said:


Do you consider your father an a-hole?


Very much agree.

Welcome to MB

Be pretty clear that your mother mey have to cull you from her life for her mental health.

Mulan, you okay?

I read your post making moral equivalence arguments and I can't imagine your mother's pain in reading that. Do you have any idea how painful that would be for her to read? Not to mention impossible to defend. What a betrayal!

You DO condone his behavior when you make such arguments.

I don't want you to do anything except think through what you are saying. I UNDERSTAND you are a victim too, really I do. I understand you are frustrated with your mother and want to see her in a better place. We do too!

But you don't mitigate your victimhood or your mothers by making unworkable moral equivalence arguments. That makes the problem worse.

And of course it your choice to be friends with your father. No one has disputed that. My point is that most children don't want to have a relationship with the adulterer. That is not a bad thing, but a good thing. My life was much better once I cut my corrupt father out of my life. I clung out of a sense of misplaced guilt for years. He made me sick inside as a human being and I felt peace once I just admitted the truth to myself and cut him out. No big drama, just a backing off.

I honestly don't blame you for not saying anything to your mother when he got married. I understand and agree with your reasons for doing it. You were placed in an impossible situation.

Me having a relationship with him is not saying "I don't believe you" or support you. I guess the major hurt and disapointment with him has honestly tapered off since so much time has passed. That doesn't mean it still doesn't exist.

I want the same for my mother. I want the drama to taper off. I want to be able to not worry about her accidently finding out something about him or catching her off guard by mentioning his name. She may love him forever, but release us us from the drama too. It is just exhausting. We all feel trapped and consumed by it.


I believe and understand her hurt. I do! How can Mula heal from this? How? I just don't know.

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe your mother will never "heal" in the way you want her to? Is it possible that the hurt was so bad that, even when she heals, in her own way and time, that possibly a huge scar will remain? Would you be angry with a burn victim if their face never looked the same? You do not have the right to tell her what or how to be. You can gently and kindly encourage her by living the life in front of you now, and asking her to be included, but that's about all you've got.

On another note, I had to distance myself from my father after a family issue on which he decided to take the side of the perpetrator of sexual abuse. He didn't do the act himself, but he didn't stand up against it and tried to "decriminalize"
It. I couldn't, in good conscience, continue to be around him thereby giving him the impression that this stance was acceptable. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me though, since he was a wayward early in my parents' marriage, and that, along with his uncontrolled anger led to their divorce. Do you see how character DOES matter?

Though I tend to be a person who feels guilty too easily, and I sometimes feel that way about keeping my distance from him, I see that my life is so much healthier this way. It is a healthy boundary for ME not to expose myself to the wayward mentality. And it's healthier for my children as well. They may be losing a supposed relationship with a grandfather, but that is because of HIS choices. They don't need that kind of influence in their lives.

There is no easy fix to this situation but I'm curious what your feelings are about the financial ties your father has with your mom. If he refuses to cut those ties with her, he is still holding her hostage in a way...and it is cruel...and it keeps the drama going for Mulan. Have you ever asked your father to do right by your mom and cut those ties? If so, what is his response?

[[[mulan]]]]
I don't stop here too often and I am sorry to see these posts.

It reinforces how adultery destroys...it destroys the loving spouse, the children, the family and the moral fiber of life.

cynda, you are crying out for both your mother and father and have lost both because of this adultery.

My heart breaks for this family.

Mulan with this new shock it has made you relive your pain. Breathe and pray. One step at a time...but take those steps.

Cynda you lost both parents. Even though you have a relationship with your father it is a poor substitute for your Dad. Your Mom is a casualty of his adultery.

Mulan, everyone here has experienced this pain and shock. What you have to remember is that you deserve happiness. Stop punishing yourself for his sins. I understand your love for a man that is not there. This should not stop you from being a loving grandmother and more.

Stop giving him your power. Stop giving the OW your pain. I understand when you said the OW stole your life. My XH affairaged with the OW also.

The OW wanted everything that I had. She wanted the manager (he was demoted), she wanted the family man (he estranged himself from his daughters), she wanted his money (he is bankrupt), she wanted the man with good ethics (the day the A started he stopped being that). Everything she wanted she got none of those things.

Don't envy her. she has NOTHING.

I never thought I would be happy again, I never thought I would go forward but I do every day. There are some days (and I still work with both her and him) that I have my moments but they have no power. I still love my old H but know as long as he is with OW he will be the selfish wayward.

I don't date but I have good friends, a good church, and creating a good life. Love when you ready not when you are lonely. I may never get there and that is fine too.

Yes it is shocking, so hurtful, so full of pain. You don't want to be stuck in that hell. No one deserves to be.

This is the time now for your personal growth. It is time for you to let this go. Turn it over to God truly.

Blessing to your you and your family.

Your mother had her heart ripped out. Stomped on. You are just fine with the person who did it.

Mulan, we are here for you.

If you need someone to talk to, we will listen.

When I first found out many things had to be re-evaluated.

The image of Miss Haversham in Great Expectations kept returning to me .She had been betrayed on her wedding day and from that moment never left the house and never took off her wedding dress.

As a metaphor for PTSD she strikes a frightening image of what is happening inside the brain but using her as a benchmark I can see that just about every one here has gone well beyond that stage.

It must have been ten times as bad in those days she had no-one to talk to about her problems and I am sure we all agree that this forum has been a huge help 24/7.

Yes Cyndi is a victim and actually, she is in more pain than Mulan.

Mulan is doing the work of grieving, productive work. She got no say in receiving the mess, but she is busy clearing it up. So what if she has been in the anger stage a long time? It takes as long as it takes. People also keep giving her reasons to be angry! She is being honest and dealing with her feelings.

Cyndi is choosing denial. Shove the pain down deep and cover it with fake smiles, tolerance of adulterers and fake relationships.

I don't say these things to accuse Cyndi - simply to warn her that her tactics, while entirely her decision, will carry their own consequences.

I understand she's looking for an easy solution to all this. A magic pill, a re-set button. Get mum an internet date or into a counsellors office and maybe it will be as though the betrayal never happened.

Treat dad like a good man and maybe she can fake it long enough to believe that he is one.

There isn't any magic pill that will work for Mulan, aside from time and support from loved ones. There isn't any magic pill, certainly not denial, for Cyndi either. She's still in pain under all this and there's no point pretending she isnt.

Its also worse than useless to encourage Mulan to join in her in faking it to make it.

Mulan's wounds are practically visible to her. She isn't dishonest enough to pretend they are not. Her honesty is naturally repelled at the idea of such a thing and understands it will simply impede her grieving. It will simply be a stage of stopping the work, pretending the work of grieving is not needed.

To get through grieving, you have to grieve. Stop telling her to stop grieving and start acknowledging your own grief.

Cyndy it will take a long long time!

You must not be so impatient.

I understand you are exhausted but healing together need not be an exhausting task.

It could be the greatest thing ever.

I couldn't agree more with this. I will get divorced, I will make a happy life, I will probably get remarried..but I will never be the same.

I wouldn't erase the pain of betrayal for anything. Its made me a better person.

I will always watch people a little more closely now. Less trustingly. I will always feel more gratitude for loving actions as opposed to loving words these days. I will always wince at things which remind me of my scar.

But I wouldn't rid myself of my scar. Its part of me and my history now.

Not possible. Mentioning the name of an abuser to his victim will always pierce that victim's scar.

You wish for the impossible.

It is not Mulans fault that scar is there.

I have read this entire thread. And it's painful. I want to hug Mulan and her daughter- because they are both embroiled in a mess not of their own making. And that sucks.

But to Cyndy, I need to say this, in the wise words of the band The Fray- sometimes the hardest thing is the right thing to do.

Your father's choices are terrible. He has hurt you with his decisions. He has made you an accomplice in injuring Mulan further- by appealing to the little girl in you that wants two parents.

It hurts when you realize that we cannot always have that. And that no amount of being nice to a person who has made terrible choices ( not mistakes. Choices. A mistake is locking your keys in the car. Serial adultery? Choice.) will fix that.

It isn't moral to be neutral. You have to stand up for what is right and good and honest. That's morality. What you described is relativism. That's not an admirable position.

I wish you peace and luck.

I have six children, and I have been in exactly the same situation you were in.

I haven't read all of the posts here, and I don't know what I do or don't agree with. I'm digging through now to see if you saw or responded to my post yesterday.

I've learned a couple of things on Marriage Builders.

One thing I've learned is that abuse does not justify more abuse. One person might take an abusive action such as anger or having an affair. It is natural for the other person to want to respond in kind. It is natural, but it is not good for either person in the relationship, and it is counterproductive: it makes everything worse. This goes for all relationships, not just marriages.

Another thing I've learned is that angry outbursts are always wrong. There is always an alternative way to respond. The angry outburst always makes it harder for the angry person to get what they were looking for, too.

Another thing I've learned is that angry outbursts are an extremely common response to the betrayal of an affair. As others are saying, the feeling of anger seems to be a natural stage to grief.

Of course, if one person is angry at us, we choose how we are going to respond to that.

You say you regret attending the wedding; that it was a painful experience.

Please stop condoning that event then by your implicit endorsement by being around OW. You can be with your father all you like, so long as you don't condone his continuing evil choices to hurt your mother. And believe me - having her son as a best man to his affairage was INTENDED to hurt your mother. To the core. He hates that she stood up to him.

Are you afraid to stand up to him and take a stand against his choices?

Are you afraid to lose his love? However he chooses to buy it/show it?

Hugs to you too Cindy, I've been where you are and I too suffered the consequences. It is not till I made it right that my life went better.

I just wanted to say that I've certainly said everything that I want to say. And that I'm done posting in here. I honestly don't believe it is healthy at all for me to get into this exchange with all of you.

I have faults and I have not handled myself perfectly at all. I fully recognize that. But I don't deserve the name-calling that has been said here. I find it deranged and disgusting. I really disagree with everything said here. There are certain things that I really cannot comment on publically (re: finances, etc) because that is between me and my mother.

The only thing I do agree with is that I understand that my mom was really devastated about finding out about the wedding. Esp in the way she did. It was awful for her and I really do understand that. The whole sitaution sucks, frankly.

Bottom line: I want her to be mentally healthy and free from this. I want her to be ok with herself and embrace her family -- my brother, myself and two granddaughters are a family, whether she thinks we are or not. That is all I want.

Mulan and Cyndy,

I am so sorry for the devestation that has occurred in both your lives.

Hugs and prayers for both of you.

AM

She thinks you are not a family, because you aren't acting as one.

Disagree with us everyday, for the rest of your life- but that's the truth. And that's why you are depressed and anxious. You have a bullet wound and you are worried about a hangnail instead.

I hope you can take a step back- and think- without anger or prejudice about what we are saying to you. It is all being said to help you, not to wound you further. Your anger is misplaced. and that's why you have no peace.

I agree. I was dismayed to see it.


Since I was the one who brought up finances...I was not expecting you to disclosure personal financial details. If you are no longer going to post, I just want to say that this is just one area where exWH can do right by your mother. If he REFUSES to be a decent person TODAY and make things right for her, I wonder how you (and your brother) have a relationship with a man who STILL continues to injure your mother. That would be hard to reconcile for most people. The financial aspect was merely an example of the bigger picture and one reason your mother remains stuck and feels an ongoing betrayal.


I want those things for Mulan too...I think we all do. It is easier said then done. She will have to make choices and much of her own healing falls solely on her and unfortunately time. I hope you really take a hard look at exWH...the man he is TODAY and take to heart why Mulan continues to feel betrayed. You may never have walked in your mother's shoes as a betrayed wife but betrayal on any level cuts deep...especially when it's family.

I sincerely hope you all heal and are able to rebuild. Prayers and hugs to you Cyndy.

****EDIT****

She's trying to rebuild HER family, which includes her brother, mother and kids. Maybe she went to the wedding in part to support her brother who lived through years of hell while Mulan and WH were floundering with adultery and the results of it? She regrets it. It was years ago.

Give the lady a break. She didn't lie to her mother. Mulan didn't want to know.

I for one would be pretty devastated if my mother couldn't see that the family she worked so hard to build was STILL HERE. Changed but still here.

******EDIT*****

Plan B is about self care and creating a life on your own...a fulfilling life. Mulan has so much going for her. How much time will be spent lamenting before just moving into a new future?

Clean up those financial ties, Mulan. Sell the house if you need to. Don't waste anymore time. He is gone.

I know many will be offended by this post because I'm a FWW but really? Are angry outbursts acceptable HERE?

My prayers are with both Mulan and Cyndy.

YEP!

If entered into quickly and correctly, as Dr. Harley recommends, it will also minimize the PTSD.

YEP!

That's the whole purpose of this forum..... "Surviving An Affair"..

I think you're making a wise choice.

Be Well!

I agree and no one would be more delighted than me to see it. But supporting the waywards is not the way to do it.


I am in a dark plan b where his name is banned but I would feel very lied to if I discovered my loved ones had secretly gone to the wedding of my WH. Just because I have asked them to not mention him, or any new marriage does not make it OK to support him secretly. Or support him at all. Going dark is not an excuse to be misled by your supporters.



Nonsense, her support for the waywards continues to this day. Mulan is hurt by it daily.

Supporting her brother should involve urging him to stand up to this wayward. Not helping him make bad choices.


Mulan has said she will be there for them no matter what. That's why it is safer to criticise her than it is to criticise a wayward who will dump you for speaking up.



I believe Mulan is asking for help with that. She has limited control over that because the PRESENT is filled with her loved ones supporting the waywards. The future, where he is cut out of her life, has not arrived yet.

This thread just breaks my heart.

I apologize Mulan.
You pain is so huge, I can't stand to read any further.
Prayers for Mulan's recovery.

May I suggest, you set a goal, and then work to make that goal happen.
Do not set an unattainable goal which relies on certain other people making the right decisions/actions, when experience has taught you that is unlikely.

But Indie, Cyndy is saying Mulan has NOT been there. So great is her grief, she has NOT been there. And according to Cyndy (who I imagine knows a lot more about what Mulan does day in and day out to take care of herself or NOT), Mulan suffers from anxiety attacks and depression that prevent her from being a strong presence in her children and grand children's lives.

And there will always be people who stay connected with the wayward. Mulan doesn't get to control that. No betrayed spouse can control that.

All of us, however, can control how we move forward though.

It's not just BS's raging.

I am not a BS or a WS, but I am a child (well, mom and wife, but child of the adulter) who recently went through the exact same thing.

My mom was the WS. My dad was the BS. I don't even like my dad or have contact with him. But I refuse to support my mother's marriage, be there for it, allow OM into my home. It has nothing to do with "taking sides" because honestly, I am close to my mother. But I will NOT permit or accept such behaviour in my home or around my children.

People's anger with Cyndy is not because she speaks to WS on the phone, it's because she stood by in support of the affairage.

Zibbles-

You sound like my spouse did when he was foggy.

All this talk of forward motion without healing- without considering that people aren't healing because other people are still ripping the scab off at every moment.

I never said move on without healing. For the love of God, focus on healing! But if you tell your kids to honor your plan b by NOT mentioning the wayward, then why are you mad that they didn't?

I'm not defending the fact that Cyndy went to the wedding or keeps in touch with the EX. I would be devastated if I were Mulan. Not trying to debate that. Just saying that we can't control others and sometimes we need to get moving with the healing...our healing.

Mulan says this new wife took her life.
MULAN! YOU STILL HAVE YOUR LIFE. Make it the best it can be, scars and call.

****EDIT****

***Complaints & criticisms go to the Moderators! DO NOT do it on the forums!!***
JustUss

I understand exactly what you are saying, Zibbles. I totally get it. That's why I said what I said.

Here are some radio clips where the WH's adult children will not talk to him because of his affair.
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

I have prayed for these two woman. Both of whom have been enormously hurt and are both struggling through the aftermath of an affair. It has saddened my heart to see a mother and daughters relationship strained because of the affair of the husband and father. i am not a vet and am unable to offer any suggestions for Mulan and Cyndy. I will continue to pray for you both.

It has taken me hours to read through all of this thread. I want to say, Mulan, I am sorry for the pain you and all of us have been through. It just goes to show what devastation is brought about through the selfishness of adultery.

Cindy, I acknowledge your pain too, this is a situation none of us wish our kids to be put through. Once you and your brother reach the point where you can tell your father what this has done to your entire family and can truly be sorry for what it's put your mom through, maybe then healing can begin. You and your brother have had years to process this, but your mother just found out about his affairage, so it's all very fresh to her. I hope you never have to experience what she's gone through.

Mulan, I'll pray for you, I know this is tough. I do hope you can find good in your future, hence my signature...