Marriage Builders
Posted By: Phoenix20 Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/16/12 12:52 PM
You can read my posts on some of the stuff I did to my wife and how badly I hurt her. I have 3 kids with her and 1 with another person. (Jacked up family/life to a new level). Neither my wife nor I can afford to have an apartment. I don't want to lose my family but I have suffered from an addiction that hurt my wife too many times and she needs this to be safe/happy again. It sucks... We are keeping the bank accounts together and I am staying at my mom's 6 nights a week while she is at her moms the other night. I thought I was strong enough to beat my addiction but it won. We aren't hiring a divorce attorny, but she is getting a job. I am not sure if I should try and look out for myself now or should I just go along with whatever she says in the event that things work out? (She has been very fair and kind and tells me she is losing her best friend and is heart broken).
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/17/12 12:59 AM
Nothing is going to help until you get into recovery. I don't know what your addiction is, but there are groups for everything-AA (alcohol) NA (narcotics and other drugs) SA (sex addiction). You can look them up online or in a phone book.

Find as many groups as you can, and go as often as you can.

I have seen these groups work wonders with lots of people.

Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/17/12 11:12 AM
I met with my counselor yesterday and restarted from ground zero. So much work and progress were thrown out the window. After 4 months of amazing clean living I let stress take over. I am working through a SA. (Inappropriate thoughts / communicating them with others)

I have given 100% to my family every day of my life. I gave up a ton of extra activities so that I could be home after work and tuck my kids into bed every night and wake up and make them breakfast. My wife "told" me what the parenting schedule should be: I see them Wednesday from 5:30 to 8:30ish so I can put them in bed. (Last night I was so happy seeing them). Then I am at the house Friday at 5:30 to Saturday at 8:30ish (bedtime) then on Sunday from 12-3. I am starting to go through the grieving process of not seeing them daily. It sucks. We havn't told them whats going on yet other than I am staying at Grandma's house to help her. We "formally" are seperated I guess...and will re-evaluate after the summer is over. I don't see how my wife could ever trust or love me again. I just don't want to be a part time dad...even though thats what I am. I just want someone to tell me my kids will be ok and they will always love me....i just miss them so much it hurts...
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/18/12 05:42 PM
So I have been trying to do things to take care of myself and take my mind of the situation. (I've texted my wife every morning telling her how much I miss her which I am trying to stop doing)

Went to the tanning bed today and my wife sends me an email "Going tanning? Getting ready to start dating?"

Not sure how to respond. Yes I went tanning and all i want is to be with her. Im tempted to just ignore it. I know I need help but I know if I pursue her it will just push her away. Not sure how to respond to her email.
Posted By: living_well Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/18/12 06:08 PM
There isn't a woman in the world that doesn't love a gentle flirtation. Tell her you are trying to improve yourself in the hope that the most beautiful woman in the world <insert wife's name> will like the look of you.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/18/12 07:51 PM
Dont respond to her antics and games .... Tell her your just tired of who you currently are and want to change you FOR YOU. Leave it at that .... let her wonder. MEanwhile .. you just continue to become a better YOU .. and display it to her once in a while in a confident way but without EXPECTATIONS.

MNG
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/19/12 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
So I have been trying to do things to take care of myself and take my mind of the situation. (I've texted my wife every morning telling her how much I miss her which I am trying to stop doing)

Went to the tanning bed today and my wife sends me an email "Going tanning? Getting ready to start dating?"

Not sure how to respond. Yes I went tanning and all i want is to be with her. Im tempted to just ignore it. I know I need help but I know if I pursue her it will just push her away. Not sure how to respond to her email.

Is tanning a trigger for her? When you were cheating were you tanning?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/22/12 01:48 PM
I never physically cheated on her. She got hurt a few years ago and wasn't emotionally available for me. The stress of how she treated me based on stuff that happened resulted in me "having inappropriate conversations".

I am going through a 12 step program to focus on me and trying to do those things that help me feel better I really need to be a better me. She has made it quite clear that she doesn't want to be married but won't file for divorce until the end of summer so that she can save up money. Right now she is very mad at me because she finally said she had to put her foot down on my behavior. (She is 100% right on this!!!!!) I have to get better for me, the firs ttime through this I got better for the marriage, so when things started geting better I wasn't in a good enough place to be strong for her. Now the only person I am doing this is for me. Its just really really hard because I don't know how to be alone without her support.

I have become obsessed with trying to make her happy and want to stay with me and I have to let that go so I can focus on me and the times I have the kids.

Right now I am setting up a bedroom in our house. (Still havn't told the kids, she doesn't want them to know anything is "wrong") But last night we went up stairs to lay down and I was in my room just trying to decompress and put clothes in a drawer and she kept telling me to top doing it, I was being weird, and that I just needed to go to bed. (She has always been very controlling). I just feel like I need to be me so I can focus on me but its hard when she can't just let me do things for me. I don't know....this post is more about me venting and putting my feelings out there in a productive way versus me doing something I would regret.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/22/12 03:25 PM
When are you going to call the coaching center?

Didn't you say your wife is in an EA?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/22/12 05:20 PM
My wife was in an EA in December and since then I didn't really feel like she ever "came back to me". As soon as the stuff hit the fan last week she ran to talk to him. (They don't message on Facebook, and his number is blocked on the phone) I know there are other ways to communicate but I don't think he is the problem.

She is 200% done in the marriage. I am going to a counselor to talk about my issues, but she said there were no more chances and that if I ever hurt her again she was done. She has no interest or desire to go to a joint session because she doesn't want to talk about it.

I would do anything to save my marriage, but alot of this is because I am the problem and didn't stay with my counselor long enough to work through some stuff.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/22/12 05:46 PM
I just can't seem to let her go...and I feel so Guilty.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/23/12 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
My wife was in an EA in December and since then I didn't really feel like she ever "came back to me". As soon as the stuff hit the fan last week she ran to talk to him. (They don't message on Facebook, and his number is blocked on the phone) I know there are other ways to communicate but I don't think he is the problem.

She is 200% done in the marriage. I am going to a counselor to talk about my issues, but she said there were no more chances and that if I ever hurt her again she was done. She has no interest or desire to go to a joint session because she doesn't want to talk about it.

I would do anything to save my marriage, but alot of this is because I am the problem and didn't stay with my counselor long enough to work through some stuff.

If there is another man in the picture this is why she is 200% done with the marriage.

Yes you need to fix you, but you also need to kill her affair with exposure.

I'm sure she is still in contact with him.

You need to snoop and expose. Exposure 101
I would also move this to SAA and stay to one thread ask the MODs to merge all your threads.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/23/12 08:09 PM
I exposed her affiar back in December around the 12th...she continued to hide it off and on till January. She never really came back to me after she cut off contact from him. For the past 5 months it was essentially me pursuing and chasing her while her mom, her friend, and my wife blamed me for her affair. So I basically had to become her servant to convince her to stay. She had a strong sense of entitlement and I got really really lonely and I screwed up and "talked" to another girl briefly about the situation in a disrespectful way to my wife. She is 200% done with the marriage...and I think had been since early this year. She didn't want to invest in me at all and I cracked under the pressure. I can't make someone want to stay married; and I gave her the excuse she wanted to leave. Not sure if I have a choice now or not.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/24/12 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I exposed her affiar back in December around the 12th...she continued to hide it off and on till January. She never really came back to me after she cut off contact from him. For the past 5 months it was essentially me pursuing and chasing her while her mom, her friend, and my wife blamed me for her affair. So I basically had to become her servant to convince her to stay. She had a strong sense of entitlement and I got really really lonely and I screwed up and "talked" to another girl briefly about the situation in a disrespectful way to my wife. She is 200% done with the marriage...and I think had been since early this year. She didn't want to invest in me at all and I cracked under the pressure. I can't make someone want to stay married; and I gave her the excuse she wanted to leave. Not sure if I have a choice now or not.


Please hit notify and ask the MODS to merge all your threads and stick to one thread.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/26/12 08:37 PM
My brain has been all over the place and I am only gonig to post on this thread. Wife took off her wedding ring 2 days ago and told me she never wanted to be married again. I am 99% sure there are no other guys in the picture, just her being sad because I am a screw up and talked to a girl online. At this point if I were a friend of hers I would tell her that your husband has issues and you probably need a divorce. I am working on me and it sucks because I see her everyday and hurt from the pain I've caused her. I want nothing more than to spend the rest of my life with her...unfortunatly she is too hurt to want to stay. Her plan is to save money then when she has enough I find a house and we get a dissalution. Part of me wants to scream out "HELP" but there is a part that says she needs to protect herself. If I don't get better for me it won't work period. If I do get better I have no idea what to do try and convince her this is something worth saving.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/28/12 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
If I do get better I have no idea what to do try and convince her this is something worth saving.

"If" you get better?

BTW, you are not convinced your marriage is worth saving. Which is why you can't 'convince' your wife.

Are you participating in and working with a drug treatment program?
Posted By: LoveIsaChoice4Me Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/29/12 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
... I am working through a SA. (Inappropriate thoughts / communicating them with others)...
Phoenix20 ~
It appears that you are a "Sex Addict".
Is that right?
If you are, you need to say those words.
Right here ~ Right now!
What is the FIRST thing an addict must do in order to take the FIRST step to recovery?
Yes! You know what it is...
"Hello. My name is Phoenix20 and I am a sex addict".
When did your sex addiction start?
That is how long your W has lived with a sex addict.
BTW ~ Your addiction in no way justifies or rationalizes her affair(s). Does not matter if they are EA's or PA's.
How have you betrayed your W in your addiction?
Porn?
Dating Sites?
Chat Rooms?
Prostitutes?
Affairs?

If you want to do the hard work to restore love in your marriage, you need to listen to each and every word of each and every MB Veteran.
And, yes, I mean EACH and EVERY word of these incredible people!
They will tell you to START by addressing your sex addiction!
Marriage Builders principles can only work as long as a person is WORKING their "recovery"!
It also sounds like your wife is ready to move on.
If she chooses to leave, you still need to work on you!
The reason you are so desperate right now is because you have been keying off of her!
Stop it!!!
Your addiction prevents you from thinking rationally and cognitively!
WORK the twelve steps.
Go to your meetings EVERY DAY for at least 12 months!
Be proactive / aggressive in seeking accountability from your sponsor!
THREE TIMES A DAY ~ EVERY DAY ~ FOR THE NEXT 12 MONTHS!
You still have that "stinkin' thinkin'"!!!!!
And, yes, you know exactly how, what & where that "stinkin' think'" comes from and the triggers that lead to it!!!!!
I hope you will take the bull by the horns and wrestle it to the ground and tie it up and walk away from it!
Only then will Marriage Builders be a tool that you can use in order to restore love in your marriage...
That is, if your W agrees to do the hard work she needs to do as well!



Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/29/12 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by LoveIsaChoice4Me
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
... I am working through a SA. (Inappropriate thoughts / communicating them with others)...
Phoenix20 ~
It appears that you are a "Sex Addict".
Is that right?
If you are, you need to say those words.
Right here ~ Right now!
What is the FIRST thing an addict must do in order to take the FIRST step to recovery?
Yes! You know what it is...
"Hello. My name is Phoenix20 and I am a sex addict".

I agree.

I told you on another thread to name your addiction in your signature. If you try to minimize the problem you will never do anything about it.

Please go through your threads and make a list of the things people have suggested that you do, and then start DOING instead of TALKING. Otherwise your life is never going to change.

Then you can talk about what you are DOING instead of how bad things are.
Posted By: LoveIsaChoice4Me Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/30/12 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by LoveIsaChoice4Me
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
... I am working through a SA. (Inappropriate thoughts / communicating them with others)...
Phoenix20 ~
It appears that you are a "Sex Addict".
Is that right?
If you are, you need to say those words.
Right here ~ Right now!
What is the FIRST thing an addict must do in order to take the FIRST step to recovery?
Yes! You know what it is...
"Hello. My name is Phoenix20 and I am a sex addict".

I agree.

I told you on another thread to name your addiction in your signature. If you try to minimize the problem you will never do anything about it.

Please go through your threads and make a list of the things people have suggested that you do, and then start DOING instead of TALKING. Otherwise your life is never going to change.

Then you can talk about what you are DOING instead of how bad things are.
YES! YES!! YES!!!
Phoenix ~ Listen to Markos!
Are you LISTENING?!?
The best gift you can give yourself is the one that sets you "free"...
What is the "gift"?
HONESTY, OPENNESS, WILLINGNESS to come completely "clean"!
It starts from within your heart and soul...
Yes, it hurts to "confess" our sin...
HOWEVER,
The "Truth" shall set you "FREE"!

Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/31/12 05:11 PM
My name is Phoenix20 and I am a sex addict. My sexual addiction consists of use of pornography and talking to girls on the internet. I am choosing to change this destructive pattern of behavior and am working with a counselor and will begin a 20 week program in June. I will overcome this addiction so that I am the man God created me to be. Throughout this process I will show my wife the Love and Respect she deserves. I am 100% committed to regaining my life and through this process I will make every effort and attempt to prove I am trustworthy and show my wife I am committed to making my marriage to work.

These actions have ruined the trust my wife had in me and hurt her in ways that she did not deserve.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/31/12 05:24 PM
Hi, Phoenix. Wow, great step!!!

I have a question: was that you on Marriage Builders radio yesterday? There was a couple on the show, and the husband had been in counseling for sex addiction, and had used pornography and had emotional affairs on the internet.

If it was you, let us know; we can help support you in following the advice Dr. Harley gave.

If not, you might benefit greatly from listening to the show:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3880
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3881
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3882
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3883
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/31/12 05:26 PM
Does your wife approve of the treatment plan you are in? Is she involved in it?

Dr. Harley's position is that for any addiction or other treatment plans, the spouse needs to enthusiastically approve of the way the treatment is going and, if possible, be involved in the treatment. i.e., if a man needs to go through anger management, he should make sure that his wife feels that the program he is going through is effective; if a man plans to attend an Alcoholics Anonymous group, he should make sure that the group he attends is acceptable to his wife, etc.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/31/12 07:26 PM
My wife has never really wanted to be involved in my treatment plan. I have asked her a number of times if she did but she just wants to be able to "trust" me. I am not sure how I can get her involved. Obviously what I deal with is a little akward for many people and I wonder if she just wants to pretend like its not an issue.

She is well aware that I have been going to some meetings for additional support and that my program starts in June. (I tried just doing it on my own in January-Feb thinking that 2 months of work would "fix" me...but in May I slipped) This treatment program is led by my counselor who specializes in sex addiction treatments. It will be a group of 11 other guys going through material specifically designed to deal with my issues. I am doing the treatment for me because I don't want to deal with this stuff every again. I want my wife to see that I am making this a priority so she doesn't get hurt again. Its going to be about an hour of work in a workbook each day and 1 weekly 90 min group session. I feel like I've said too many things to her that I wasn't able to back up so my words are worthless.

I think at this point my wife wants me to get help but really doesn't care what I do. Like I said she is done and checked out. She has told most of her friends that she has no other option but divorce and they support her in it. I don't blame them because a person should only get hurt so many times. At some point the emotional hurt is abusive...and thats the place where she is at now that she feels emotionally abused. Obviously my treatment has to come first because success is the only option. I'd love to hear some suggestions on what I can do to help my wife see I really love her and I am not going to hurt her again.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 05/31/12 07:27 PM
BTW it was not me...lol But thanks for the links!!!!
Posted By: LoveIsaChoice4Me Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/01/12 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
My name is Phoenix20 and I am a sex addict. My sexual addiction consists of use of pornography and talking to girls on the internet. I am choosing to change this destructive pattern of behavior and am working with a counselor and will begin a 20 week program in June. I will overcome this addiction so that I am the man God created me to be. Throughout this process I will show my wife the Love and Respect she deserves. I am 100% committed to regaining my life and through this process I will make every effort and attempt to prove I am trustworthy and show my wife I am committed to making my marriage to work.

These actions have ruined the trust my wife had in me and hurt her in ways that she did not deserve.
Phoenix20 ~
You have taken the first step here...
I am rooting for you!
Your DW also needs to seek counsel from people just like her!
She needs a support group that will encourage her as she seeks to recover from living with a Sex Addict!
I hope she will seek wise counsel from women who have been exactly where she is right now!
She needs women who will be able to tell her, "I know how you feel"; women who are credible because they have gone before her in dealing with their husband's sex addiction!
She needs to be encouraged by women who have "been there, done that"!
I support you and respect your "first" step!
Now that you have taken your first step, be prepared for the road to become more difficult!
You and your DW working "together" in your recovery is the only thing that will get you through it!
Blessings ~

Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/04/12 01:43 PM
I am still praying that my wife will find it in her heart to forgive me and want to stay married. Right now she says she can't forgive me of some of the things I have done. I don't blame her but its hard looking at her in pain everyday. The addict inside me has hurt her and made it look like I don't love her and just want to walk all over her. My issues stem from guilt and inner pain and don't show my true heart.

I have said this 100 times... I know I am not "Marriage" material until I get the help I need. I am trying to encourage her to go to counseling but she insists that she doesn't need it.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/04/12 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
its hard looking at her in pain everyday.

You only see part of her pain.

Quote
My issues stem from guilt and inner pain and don't show my true heart.

I certainly HOPE you have not said these things to your BW. banghead

Addicts are lazy and immature. All of them. No exceptions.
Addicts, all of them, want what they want when they want it - and they use the minimum effort possible.
Your addiction has numbed you to the needs of others.

Your "true heart" is that you want what you want (your marriage rescued from the jaws of divorce) when you want it (now) - and you are not accustomed to doing the hard work it will take to win back the TRUST and the RESPECT of those you have betrayed.

Quote
I am trying to encourage her to go to counseling but she insists that she doesn't need it.

In your situation, this "encouragement" may very well be a gigantic smelly love buster ! It is most certainly not a love unit deposit. That's for damn certain, skippy.

Your immature thinking is that if only your BW knew how much YOU WANT TO BE MARRIED TO HER - that would magically cause her to stop the divorce.
You could not be more incorrect.

You really need to put your focus towards earning her RESPECT.
If she cannot RESPECT you, she will never consider a reconciliation.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/04/12 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Your immature thinking is that if only your BW knew how much YOU WANT TO BE MARRIED TO HER - that would magically cause her to stop the divorce.
You could not be more incorrect.

This is right. Listen closely, PHoenix! Thinking that you just need to "get your message across" to your wife is wrong thinking.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/05/12 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I have said this 100 times... I know I am not "Marriage" material until I get the help I need.

You can start becoming marriage material today by reading and doing the things that are on this site. You do not need counseling or therapy or years of expensive and distracting navel gazing to accomplish that.

Nor do you need her to forgive you or commit to you or go to counseling with you to accomplish that.

You could start RIGHT NOW. The things you are posting are about your excuses for why you don't.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? It details four rules for marriage recovery that you need to follow. You can start following them RIGHT NOW.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/06/12 01:03 AM
Quote
I think at this point my wife wants me to get help but really doesn't care what I do.
Would your wife be willing to come here and talk with us?

She really needs to be on board with your recovery. You'll need her help and support. Is she willing to help?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/11/12 03:41 PM
She is such a private person she doesn't want to get on message boards and "spill" her business. I do want to let everyone know that I am almost 3 weeks into my recovery book with my counselor that has about an hour of work a day. I am working on being kind and doing things like leaving my cell phone out and being honest.

Pepperband---thanks for your post. Honestly it gave me chills. I've been 100% honest on here and hand't considered how I sounded. You are right I want it fixed now...and it can't be fixed now.

I really need to hear from some of the experts on what my best steps are. Currently I am in my recovery program and have a long way to go. I get that part of it. Best possible outcome down the road is to be a 100% faithful and loving husband to her and have the family together. She feels that she has no other choice but to have me buy a house in 2 months and move into it because she says she can't file for divorce. She wants to do it together. Her parents are pushing her to work through it but it just makes her more angry. I have shown that I am not trustworthy. She has all my passwords and email account information. She doesn't want to look at it because she doesn't want to live feeling like she has to look over my back.

Option 1: She wants me to buy a house and be apart in the next 2 months (She says she can't file for divorce because no one will let her).

Option 2: I stay at the house and be kind and respectful and work on me and treat her with respect.

Option 3: I come home from work each day to hang out with the kids and at bedtime I stay at my mom's house a few nights a week. To try to balance giving her some space and seeing the kids.

Option 4: We go to a mediator/life coach who helps us decide on how to seperate for the time being.

The current "other" issue is she is pouring her pain and misery out to a guy on facebook and he is strongly encouring her to get divorced because she can find way better guys out there that will love her. (he is single with a 6 year old). It hasn't gotten flirty yet but this is how her other EA started. (I don't have anything to stand on to tell her it isn't right...but I know it won't help the situation). Suggestions:
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/11/12 04:12 PM
Yikes...wife just called and has set up an appointment with a mediator tommorow at noon.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/11/12 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Yikes...wife just called and has set up an appointment with a mediator tommorow at noon.

Will she let you take her out on date to discuss your progress?
Listen to this.
Another excellent radio clip on Dr. Harley explaining forgiveness compared to just compensation.

Radio Clip explaining Just Compensation
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/11/12 06:10 PM
She is compltetely against talking to me about my progress because she believes I'll never change and she doesn't really care if I get better or not.

Is seperation ever the best solution to keep a family together to allow one person to heal?

BTW for everyone's benefit we worked through some stuff in the winter and she drew a line in the sand saying if it ever happened again I was out. I failed to live up to that end of the deal.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
She is compltetely against talking to me about my progress because she believes I'll never change and she doesn't really care if I get better or not.

Is seperation ever the best solution to keep a family together to allow one person to heal?

BTW for everyone's benefit we worked through some stuff in the winter and she drew a line in the sand saying if it ever happened again I was out. I failed to live up to that end of the deal.

It sounds like your BW had a firm boundary and you failed that test and now she is holding you to it.
It doesn't mean you should stop working on yourself and maybe one day she could see the changes.

You should really try to send her here. Maybe email some links?
I think you need to respect your BW's wishes. Did you listen to the radio clip? Dr. H talks about if the BS wants a divorce from the betrayal then the WS should honor that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Listen to this.
Another excellent radio clip on Dr. Harley explaining forgiveness compared to just compensation.

Radio Clip explaining Just Compensation

Did you listen to this clip?
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
She is such a private person she doesn't want to get on message boards and "spill" her business. I do want to let everyone know that I am almost 3 weeks into my recovery book with my counselor that has about an hour of work a day. I am working on being kind and doing things like leaving my cell phone out and being honest.

Pepperband---thanks for your post. Honestly it gave me chills. I've been 100% honest on here and hand't considered how I sounded. You are right I want it fixed now...and it can't be fixed now.

I really need to hear from some of the experts on what my best steps are. Currently I am in my recovery program and have a long way to go. I get that part of it. Best possible outcome down the road is to be a 100% faithful and loving husband to her and have the family together. She feels that she has no other choice but to have me buy a house in 2 months and move into it because she says she can't file for divorce. She wants to do it together. Her parents are pushing her to work through it but it just makes her more angry. I have shown that I am not trustworthy. She has all my passwords and email account information. She doesn't want to look at it because she doesn't want to live feeling like she has to look over my back.

Option 1: She wants me to buy a house and be apart in the next 2 months (She says she can't file for divorce because no one will let her).

Option 2: I stay at the house and be kind and respectful and work on me and treat her with respect.

Option 3: I come home from work each day to hang out with the kids and at bedtime I stay at my mom's house a few nights a week. To try to balance giving her some space and seeing the kids.

Option 4: We go to a mediator/life coach who helps us decide on how to seperate for the time being.

The current "other" issue is she is pouring her pain and misery out to a guy on facebook and he is strongly encouring her to get divorced because she can find way better guys out there that will love her. (he is single with a 6 year old). It hasn't gotten flirty yet but this is how her other EA started. (I don't have anything to stand on to tell her it isn't right...but I know it won't help the situation). Suggestions:


I choose Option 2 and it was not a difficult test. Do you want a divorce Phoenix? If so then give her a divorce. If not then let her go through the process. You're not "controlling" if you don't cooperate with her devious plan to destroy your family, thats the ridiculous notion that most WS's try to lay on us.
She's cheating now, so there won't be much talking to her; she has found someone who is telling her all the things she wants to hear - even if they are lies and statements based on pure conjecture and mistruths. She's licking the honey of the forbidden fruit.
That doesn't change the fact that you are working to develop habits and behaviors that are respectable and more in line with who you want to be as a person/father/husband.

Separation is never more effective in keeping a marriage together than staying in the home together. Plan B is a last resort which is necessary for the Betrayed's sanity and to keep the LB from going into the red. but it's not advocted simply to appease the wayward Spouse and win their favor, or to save a marriage in it's own merit. No.

opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 02:29 PM
I just listend to the podcast. Very helpful information. One of the things that struck a cord with me is "reasons" for infidelity...(there are no excuses). Going back to the root of the problem and where all my issues stem from. There have been a number of people (including her family) that have told me she treated me like crap throughout our entire marriage and walked all over me. I want everyone to know I OWN my mistakes. Regardless of how she acted or treated me I could have made different choices and I OWN the fact that I didn't and that hurt her. The root of my issues...I am a sinner first and formost who couldn't control his communciations online...but I've felt like a butler/cook/laundry person/servant for a long time...And felt no value. I am working on correcting my behaviors but honestly....I think there were many aspects of my marriage on how my wife treated me that were very unhealthy. Please Everyone don't see this as me making excuses for the things I've done and how I have acted. I am trying to figure out the root so things like this don't happen again. My wife is hurting because of me and in ways I can't imagine. I am making a better me and making better choices everday. I am working to be a trustworthy person and not hiding in the shadows anymore. I miss the feeling of God loving me...I miss the feeling of Jesus living inside my heart. I will fight for my marriage because I believe its right...but through the process I need to regain some respect for myself and from her in some way because I don't think I can survive in a marriage where I am de-valued as a person. (I can be more specific on this but didn't want to make this about her).

Pepperband, Markos, Brainhurts...and others (can't click away to list you because I'll lose what I typed) have gave me amazing guidance on learning to be the husband I HAVE TO BE. I am being 100% honest with my feelings here and want to get 100% honest feedback so that I can continue to work on me.

Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 02:44 PM
I have a meeting with a mediator today who is a life coach. Should I bring up the fact that she has been "talking" to another guy for the past week pouring herself out? Right now she doesn't know that I have her facebook password. I have been called manipulative everytime I bring up the situation that she is talking to someone else.

I've screwed up alot...whats the best approach to take when you are the screw up and your spouse doesn't want to make it work because she is hurt and has another guy to pour into?

If I stay at home she is only going to want me to be at her beck and call and do everything for her.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:06 PM
BRAINHURTS: You mentioned that if a BS draws a line in the sand the the WS fails it...and the BS asks for a divorce they should honor it.... Is this this best approach? Right now all she feels is like a caged animal by me telling her I want to find a way to make things work. She isn't willing to file for divorce because she doesn't want to look like the one who gave up.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:18 PM
Phoenix, I think you could benefit from taking a look at Joe's thread here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626998#Post2626998

I think the advice Joe received is very apropos for you, as well. In fact, you guys might even be able to encourage each other as you work the plan.

You are driving your wife nuts telling her you want to find a way to make things work. Stop it! Marriage Builders is a way to make things work. Show her you know how to make things work, by beginning to follow this plan. Deposit love units, and avoid love busters.

You do not require a commitment from her to do that. You just do it. We can help you if you post about your attempts here and listen to our feedback.

Quote
She isn't willing to file for divorce because she doesn't want to look like the one who gave up.

She is offering you a chance to win her back. Quit talking about it, and start doing it.

What are you doing to try to meet her emotional needs?
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
The root of my issues...I am a sinner first and formost who couldn't control his communciations online...

Correction. You could have, but you chose not to.

Please read Pepperband's lovely essay on "locus of control":
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555478#Post2555478

Quote
but I've felt like a butler/cook/laundry person/servant for a long time...And felt no value.

Yes, but that's a separate problem. Don't blend your problems together, or you will lose the benefit of focused, effective solutions.

Problem #1 is that your wife is not in love with you. Trust me on this.
You will find that in taking the actions to rectify problem #1, you will DO things of value, and then you will begin to feel value. You will also find that eventually your wife treats you with value, as well.

Quote
I am working on correcting my behaviors but honestly....I think there were many aspects of my marriage on how my wife treated me that were very unhealthy.

I am sure there were. AFTER you have followed this program and she is in a state of Intimacy with you, she will care about changing her behavior to more healthy marital patterns (meeting your emotional needs and avoiding love busters).

Quote
I am trying to figure out the root so things like this don't happen again.

Wrong approach.

The root is that everybody has a Giver and a Taker, and that if we follow our instincts these two will destroy us and our relationships. Instead you will need to follow a new rule that makes peace between your Giver and Taker and your wife's Giver and Taker.

Quote
I am working to be a trustworthy person and not hiding in the shadows anymore.

Good, then you won't mind if we start asking you lots of questions, and you'll answer them all. smile I've already seen you take some steps toward this. But I think you have a ways to go.

Quote
I will fight for my marriage because I believe its right...but

That is a horrible sentence construct.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Is seperation ever the best solution to keep a family together to allow one person to heal?

Please do your homework and find out what Dr. Harley says about this! If we have to spoonfeed you everything, you are never going to make it.

Quote
BTW for everyone's benefit we worked through some stuff in the winter and she drew a line in the sand saying if it ever happened again I was out. I failed to live up to that end of the deal.

Yeah, me too.

Solution: just compensation. Give her the marriage she always deserved. First of all, never do it again.

Moaning for the rest of your life that you are a sex addict is not a productive step toward never doing it again, by the way.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:30 PM
Phoenix, have you read the Basic Concepts on this site?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

Pay special attention to:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
The Giver & Taker
Three States of Mind in Marriage
Intimacy
Conflict
Withdrawal
How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I have said this 100 times... I know I am not "Marriage" material until I get the help I need.

You can start becoming marriage material today by reading and doing the things that are on this site. You do not need counseling or therapy or years of expensive and distracting navel gazing to accomplish that.

Nor do you need her to forgive you or commit to you or go to counseling with you to accomplish that.

You could start RIGHT NOW. The things you are posting are about your excuses for why you don't.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? It details four rules for marriage recovery that you need to follow. You can start following them RIGHT NOW.

Phoenix, I asked you last week if you have this book, and you never answered.

If you will answer our questions, we can help you through the steps you need to take to recover your marriage.

Do you have this book? And have you read the Basic Concepts?
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/12/12 06:36 PM
Phoenix, it is my opinion that if you try to put your marriage on hold while you complete therapy for sex addiction, your marriage will die.

It is my opinion that you need to make Marriage Builders the core of what you are doing and let any outside therapy like sex addiction therapy support it, not the other way around.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/13/12 06:49 AM
Phoenix,

Have you thought about emailing Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/13/12 12:16 PM
BTW I bought the book 3 days ago...it should arrive today or tommorow!

Last night was the first night of my recovery group. Its a 20 week program. Met with 9 other men going through simliar battles...

Last night I met my wife after my group and help put the kids to bed and helped her clean up the house and then sat on the coach some and watched TV with her and let her "yell" at me and tell me how mad she was at me. I just wanted her to not feel alone and be able to let her anger out then give her space. Around 10:45 I drove 20 min to my mom's house.

I got yelled at for "snooping". The last time when went through stuff she had her EA and I saw the start of one and felt like I had to put the brakes on it before it got out of hand...unfortunatly it crosses a huge boundry for her.

I've read the basic concepts on this site about a love bank and actually last night after a messy day...i prayed that God would give me a chance to make a deposit and made a small one last night by just helping her around the house. Probably a one penny deposit against a bankrupt account but at least it was a start.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/13/12 06:59 PM
Today I accomplished removing the vast majority of female contacts off my Facebook account. My words mean jack squat...but don't need any temptation/distractions!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 04:18 AM
Good on getting rid of the female facebook friends. What about asking BW to have a joint account and so there is complete transparency?

Also when she is "yelling" at you do you tell her you do not like that and ask her to that you would appreciate it if she would talk to you civil?

Because you did wrong does not mean she gets a free card to abuse you.

Also on the snooping you tell her you are still married and will do whatever it takes to protect your M.

Did you move back home?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 12:13 PM
I stayed the night at the house last night. Everytime I try and stand up for myself she says "Here comes the old you back...I knew he would come back...this is the you the I hate". Ever since her EA back in the winter she has had a very very strong sense of entitlement. Here is a typical day in my life after her EA.

I get up about 6 for work. Kids wake up between 6:30-7. I get myself ready and make the kids breakfast...I make the older 2 lunch for school and pack their lunch. Around 7:15 my wife would come downstairs. I would leave for work about 7:30. She would spend most of her day on Facebook and doing photography stuff while the kids watch TV. I get home around 5:30 from work and she leaves to take one of the kids to an activity. I clean up the kitchen and do all the dishes that are in the sink from the day. I make dinner and feed the kids and myself. On the days my wife isn't off at an activity with the kids she eats dinner on the couch in the family room while watching TV and playing on Facebook. (I am with the kids while I eat). I keep cleaning stuff up and hang out with the kids. Around 8 I take the kids upstairs (even when she is home) and get them ready for bed. Sometimes she would come up and help other times she was on her computer. After putting the kids to bed she "had" to be on her computer to do school work, facebook stuff, and photography until it was bedtime. During this time she told me I needed to do laundry, write her papers for school, or I needed to run out to the store. I would sit on the couch try and talk to her some but she was more concerned with her computer. (After her EA I snooped like crazy and am 99.999% sure it was not another EA....but her escape to get "praise on facebook". She would post how amazing of a mom she was and how she was getting great grades in school and doing all these amazing things. (keep in mind I did about 1/2 her school work for her). On the weekends I would help her get ready for photoshoots or she would go out with her friends or mom for lunch and told me I needed to have the house clean by the time she got back. If I missed cleaning something or she walked in the door before I had a chance to clean up from lunch I got yelled at and was told how disrespectful it was to her because I knew it was important. Cleaning up after 4 kids is more than a full time job...Never once in our marriage did I get mad the house was a mess when I got home from work. It was the expectation that the house would be spotless though if she was gone for any length of time. My normal life is filled with cutting remarks from her and anytime I stand up for myself I am told I have "thin skin". Everything from my driving, to not putting a black shirt in the right "colored laundry pile". She would make it quite clear how mad she was if I put a shirt in the wrong pile. She wouldn't fix it. She would tell me to "come here" and then point out how I can't put laundry this way and tell me to fix it. I've been the type of person that if something like a shirt is in the wrong pile...I move it. no big deal. If I ever did anything she thought wasn't normal...like walk around the house and pick a few things up that were left out or wash the kid's trash can out. She would tell me I was "Weird" and I had to stop being "weird".

Our marriage has been very 1 dimensional. I give and she takes. I stopped asking her to do anything because she always said no. However I am asked or told to do many things during the day. Her mom and some of our friends have made the following comments. "She treats you like crap and doesn't care who sees it. But I am not going to tell you that Your wife treats you like crap its not my place". I want to make something quite clear to everyone. My mistakes are MY FAULT. I own those. Those were behaviors and choices I made. I could have and should have done the right thing.

That being said...my counselor has told me that daily cut downs and being treated like a servant are border line emotionally abusive and might be a strong reason why you felt like you had to escape your reality into unhealthy and sinful activities. He told me that a divorce might be more healthy for me than staying married. I can't make my wife stay..I can only show her love and that I want this to work. However she is not the type of person who wants to change because she doesn't see anything wrong with how she treats me or what she says. I know I have to change for me...but a big part of me is trying to figure out if marriage is even healthy for me given how she has treated me over the past year. (She has always wanted to be in control even before we were going through everything there wasn't ever much giving on her end).

Last night she wanted me to leave and go to my mom's and I told her I wanted to stay here and focus on my recovery work. I went up to my room and she came in to tell me that she can't sleep when I am home and it makes her uncomfortable...etc. I told her I have no desire to come in her room or do anything other than close my door and do my work. I told her I feel like I am completely beaten down....her reply was "Good you should feel that way". After all of this I am starting to feel hatered and resentment building and replacing the love I once had for her.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 12:24 PM
While I am thinking about it, Phoenix, here is Dr. Harley's article on sexual addiction:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex_addiction.html
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
BTW I bought the book 3 days ago...it should arrive today or tommorow!

Great. Run through it as soon as it arrives!

Quote
I've read the basic concepts on this site about a love bank and actually last night after a messy day...i prayed that God would give me a chance to make a deposit and made a small one last night by just helping her around the house. Probably a one penny deposit against a bankrupt account but at least it was a start.

Okay, what is your plan for the next deposit? If you make NO LOVEBUSTERS AT ALL, she will eventually become more and more willing for you to make larger and larger deposits. In order to save your marriage, you must have a habit of making massive Love Bank deposits every single day. So you need a plan. What's next?
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I stayed the night at the house last night. Everytime I try and stand up for myself

That has happened to nearly every betrayed husband on this site. It is the fog that Dr. Harley talks about. Have you read about the fog?

The solution is to quietly do what you need to do and to not argue about it.

Quote
My normal life is filled with cutting remarks from her and anytime I stand up for myself

What do you mean "stand up for yourself"? You should not be arguing with her, ever. Arguments are like nuclear war, Phoenix. You are not going to rise from the ashes if you drop nuclear bombs every time something goes wrong.

Let us teach you how to not have an argument.

What do you SAY when you "stand up for yourself"?

Quote
Everything from my driving, to not putting a black shirt in the right "colored laundry pile". She would make it quite clear how mad she was if I put a shirt in the wrong pile. She wouldn't fix it. She would tell me to "come here" and then point out how I can't put laundry this way and tell me to fix it. I've been the type of person that if something like a shirt is in the wrong pile...I move it. no big deal.

Then there shouldn't be a problem. You simply say, "I'm sorry, Honey. I'll be happy to learn how to get the laundry into the piles you like them in."

As you, it's no big deal. This is not something to "stand up for yourself" over. It's just laundry. Form a new habit. In fact, Dr. Harley would suggest that you should practice. Pick a five minute daily time slot and take your shirt off TEN TIMES and put it in the right laundry pile, putting it right back on afterward. When you are done taking off your laundry each day, ask your wife to see if you missed anything.

IF you are able to win her back to her marriage, THEN she will become willing to address her disrespect. She's not willing now.

The solution is to make the changes your wife needs and build a permanent habit of making massive love bank deposits, until your wife falls in love with you, and then afterward to get her to adopt the agreements that will lead to her taking care of you, and lasting love in your marriage. Happens all the time around here, and we can help you through it.

Quote
Her mom and some of our friends have made the following comments. "She treats you like crap and doesn't care who sees it. But I am not going to tell you that Your wife treats you like crap its not my place".

These people are not helping your marriage! It would be disrespectful for you to say these things about your wife. You need to not listen to people who talk disrespectfully about your wife.

Quote
That being said...my counselor has told me that daily cut downs and being treated like a servant are border line emotionally abusive and might be a strong reason why you felt like you had to escape your reality into unhealthy and sinful activities.

In a healthy marriage, husband and wife escape TOGETHER. Not into sinful activities, but into recreation, conversation, affection, and sex together. Needing to escape is normal, and this kind of navel-gazing with your therapist is not going to restore love in your marriage.

Quote
He told me that a divorce might be more healthy for me than staying married.

Goodness, if you want a divorce, go get one. You don't need your therapist to give you an excuse for something anyone in America can legally obtain. The fact is that married people tend to be healthier than single people, however.

Quote
I can't make my wife stay..I can only show her love and that I want this to work.

Well, of course you can't make your wife stay! You knew that already, right?

It sounds like you had quite the venting session with your therapist. Doesn't sound like it was very productive, other than to reinforce what your emotions are telling you to do when you are upset, which may not be the best thing for you.

Quote
I went up to my room and she came in to tell me that she can't sleep when I am home and it makes her uncomfortable...etc. I told her I have no desire to come in her room or do anything other than close my door and do my work. I told her I feel like I am completely beaten down....her reply was "Good you should feel that way".

You shouldn't have engaged with this. Don't tell her you are beaten down. It's not going to motivate her to lift you up. You can only do that by changing to become someone that it is worth it for her to stay with.

Quote
After all of this I am starting to feel hatered and resentment building and replacing the love I once had for her.

Quit picking fights with her, because that will always be the result!
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 12:51 PM
Quote
I got yelled at for "snooping". The last time when went through stuff she had her EA and I saw the start of one and felt like I had to put the brakes on it before it got out of hand...unfortunatly it crosses a huge boundry for her.
I have to echo waht Brainy said above.
Once you truly understand the importance of MB principles like eliminating LB's and meeting each other's EN's you not only model your own life for those things but you don't TOLERATE less from others. You would never allow someone to "yell" at you. You would respectfully request (not disrespectfully demand) that they refrain from speaking to you in such a tone, or you'll have to leave until they can talk to you with respect. [they won't like it, by the way. I remember trying that with my ex once and being called a whole NEW set of names, like "juvenile" and "cowardly"...]

I don't necessarily agree with the counselor that said you might have to divorce because of the situation. Marriages way worse than yours have been saved (apparently not by your counsellor, though). But I do agree that you may have to remove yourself from this abusive situation at some point as it is very hard to think clearly when you are being verbally and emotionally beaten.

From my own situation, I know that when I was harboring deep secrets, I would tend to allow my now-ex ww to get away with doing things I would otherwise not tolerate because I had a view of myself that was not optimal. I felt like I deserved her punishment and I had no right to stand up for myself (since I was using porn, and flirting wth women without her knowledge)- I felt like I might be held accountable for my actions if I ever had the nerve to hold her accountable for hers. It becomes a downward spiral of behavior for both individuals.

LIfe is way different now. I don't have the angst that comes along with independent behavior, so I'm able to identify behaviors from other people that I find acceptable or not. And I know how to calmly remove myself from a situation if I feel it's unhealthy or unproductive.

There are a lot of positives that come with living positively.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 12:58 PM
t/j:

Quote
...Phoenix. You are not going to rise from the ashes if you...

Marcos, you are truly an indispensable genius and a true patriot of MB. I appreciate that and get a lot out of your posts on all different threads.

I simply couldn't let the above quote go, it is absolutely fantastic.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 01:00 PM
by the way, pheonix, at some point, somehow, I believe you WILL rise from the ashes.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
t/j:

Quote
...Phoenix. You are not going to rise from the ashes if you...

Marcos, you are truly an indispensable genius and a true patriot of MB. I appreciate that and get a lot out of your posts on all different threads.

I simply couldn't let the above quote go, it is absolutely fantastic.

opt

hehe, thank you opt. I like "patriot of MB." MB feels like my country and my culture. smile
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 01:36 PM
Markos....first off THANK YOU! Your advice is completely opposite to what everyone is telling me.

I just read Dr. Hartley's article on Sex Addiction. Right now there are a lot of my actions that I think are "OK" that are love busters. Her privacy is very important to her. Talking about our problems with anyone is also a huge LB. As you can tell I do alot of talking and less doing.

When I stand up for myself is wrong. I use words like "You can't talk that way about me to the kids". "Thats disrespectful when you say things like that to me".

I have felt a tremdous amount of guilt when living in the shadows of my sin.

My wife told me today she has been crying all day. I offered to come home from work so she could hang out with a friend if she needed a break from the kids. I also told her I would watch the kids whenever she needed to set up an appointment with her counselor.

I have decided to not dicuss my issues with people who are giving me poor advice like showing my wife "tough love" or I need to stand up for myself. My first priority now is to find every chance to make love deposits no matter how small and figure out how to work on our communication/respect down the road.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 01:38 PM
Thank you for that comment. As you are probably well aware I chose that name for a very unique reason. I have done a great job of destroying my marriage...and my wife...and myself in the process. Today I am dead. One day I will rise. with 100% honesty I have very little hope so your tiny piece of hope you gave to me I am borrowing today.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Thank you for that comment. As you are probably well aware I chose that name for a very unique reason. I have done a great job of destroying my marriage...and my wife...and myself in the process. Today I am dead. One day I will rise. with 100% honesty I have very little hope so your tiny piece of hope you gave to me I am borrowing today.

Ironically, Phoenix, it turns out that Phoenix is a fairly common name around here. smile Not to rain on your unique parade, but that thought kind of gave me a chuckle.

I think you'll find that hope comes from having a plan that has a chance of working. Here at Marriage Builders, there is such a plan, and if you do a lot of looking around, you can find others who have worked that plan and seen success, which will give you more hope. But it's important to notice that hope, alone is not a plan, and so it's important to get started with your personal plan. So I'm going to do my part and badger you to get busy answering the question of how are you going to start working to turn this situation around? I hope there's a big education component in your plan, because there's a lot of reading to do here on Marriage Builders. Once you get the book SAA, that will be a very good place to start.

You've looked at porn, you've had emotional affairs, and your wife is in an emotional affair.

As optimism said, there are others who have been through exactly this, and have turned it around; marriages way worse than yours have been saved.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
When I stand up for myself is wrong. I use words like "You can't talk that way about me to the kids". "Thats disrespectful when you say things like that to me".

"You can't" probably sounds like a demand.

And you've now made her aware that you feel she has a habit of being disrespectful. She is going to have to decide for herself what to do about that. If you are smart, you won't try to MAKE her decide to do the right thing right now, because right now, she doesn't love you! Hopefully later after you've worked the plan she will.

And it's a little bit like arguing about the peeling paint on the titanic while the ship is sinking.

The emergencies are: she is having an emotional affair, and she sees no benefit to staying with you, because you've emptied her love bank.

Quote
I have felt a tremdous amount of guilt when living in the shadows of my sin.

optimism had a great point that because of those past actions, you've probably put up with a lot of inappropriate behavior. It's nice to have a convenient excuse for our own misdeeds.

How long have you been separated from porn, etc.? I'd like to get an idea how much this issue is in the past.

Quote
My wife told me today she has been crying all day. I offered to come home from work so she could hang out with a friend if she needed a break from the kids. I also told her I would watch the kids whenever she needed to set up an appointment with her counselor.

Okay, that was good, but you can do better. Great to offer to come home and help her in an emergency! Even better to offer to come home and be with her.

I have no idea what counselor she is going to, but odds are the counselor is terrible, since most do. I wouldn't encourage it. It'd actually be more productive if the two of you could go out, you know.

Plus, talk to her. Let her vent and open up to you about what is wrong. If she says something disrespectful to you, try to remain calm and try to see things from her perspective. Really, turning your marriage around is going to involve you becoming her companion in her problems. In an affair, a woman talks about her problems with her husband to her affair partner. To the extent that you can become the man she talks to about her problems in life, you will win out as the man in her life.

What was causing her to cry all day? The confrontation the two of you had last night?

Quote
I have decided to not dicuss my issues with people who are giving me poor advice like showing my wife "tough love" or I need to stand up for myself.

Eventually, it's going to be easy for you to respectfully complain about issues like disrespect and abuse addressed at you. But again, at this point, she has checked out of your marriage and has no reason to change for you.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 02:14 PM
Some more reading material for you to review, Phoenix.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3605_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3610_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

Read all those links before reading the rest of this post:

Your wife is in the state of conflict. She is willing for you to meet her needs, but not willing to meet yours.

If you meet her needs in this stage, she will move to the state of intimacy, where she is willing to meet your needs.

If you argue with her, she will move from conflict to withdrawal, where not only will she NOT be willing to meet your needs, she will also not even be willing to have you meet hers.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 02:15 PM
Hey, phoenix, did you take a look at Joe's thread?

Originally Posted by markos
Phoenix, I think you could benefit from taking a look at Joe's thread here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626998#Post2626998

I think the advice Joe received is very apropos for you, as well. In fact, you guys might even be able to encourage each other as you work the plan.

You are driving your wife nuts telling her you want to find a way to make things work. Stop it! Marriage Builders is a way to make things work. Show her you know how to make things work, by beginning to follow this plan. Deposit love units, and avoid love busters.

You do not require a commitment from her to do that. You just do it. We can help you if you post about your attempts here and listen to our feedback.

Quote
She isn't willing to file for divorce because she doesn't want to look like the one who gave up.

She is offering you a chance to win her back. Quit talking about it, and start doing it.

What are you doing to try to meet her emotional needs?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 02:40 PM
I read through Joe's thread...and yes its very simliar to mine.

My wife "ended" her mini-EA the other day. However she is doing a photo-shoot of him and his kid on Saturday. She offered that if I felt uncomfortable I could go as long as I wasn't a distraction. I told her I wanted to show her respect and even though I wasn't comfortable I would trust her. (This aspect is a very very grey area I could use more advice on how to handle)

I read through the stages and right now she is in withdrawl. I have to choose to supress my taker and focus on her taker.

I have to show her respect because right now she doesn't believe me when I am trying to find the right things to do to show her respect and prove I can do it.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I read through the stages and right now she is in withdrawl. I have to choose to supress my taker and focus on her taker.

She sounds in Conflict to me, but she's probably moving abck and forth between the two of them.

Rather than suppress your Taker, I think what you need is to realize that, in light of the current situation, there is probably not a way to get your needs met NOW, but following the plan may result in your needs being met LATER.

Quote
I have to show her respect because right now she doesn't believe me when I am trying to find the right things to do to show her respect and prove I can do it.

A good marriage is going to require respect all the time.

Don't tell her you are trying to find the right things. Conversations with your wife to try to persuade her of how hard you are trying are going to be useless. Do what is right, and her feelings will follow.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
My wife "ended" her mini-EA the other day. However she is doing a photo-shoot of him and his kid on Saturday. She offered that if I felt uncomfortable I could go as long as I wasn't a distraction. I told her I wanted to show her respect and even though I wasn't comfortable I would trust her. (This aspect is a very very grey area I could use more advice on how to handle)

It's not really over if she is still in contact.

You going along doesn't make it any better; in fact, it is degrading to you. Don't get upset with her for making the degrading suggestion, but don't go along with it, either.

Don't trust her. Don't tell her you will trust her. Good marriages don't "trust" each other to see former lovers and have same-sex friends outside of the marriage. Your trust is a feeling that she will eventually inspire.

The best way to handle it would have been to simply say "I'm not okay with you seeing him again." She's already gotten this message at this point, so taking it to a higher level won't help (it will be a love buster).

Who all knows about her relationship? Does his ex-wife know?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 03:37 PM
The other guy was never married. I think he might have been a partier and is recently a born again christian. They stopped talking 2 days ago.

She told me she couldn't cancel her shoot with him on Saturday because she has to be profesional and wouldn't cancel it.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 05:02 PM
Phoenix,

Listen to these radio clips. Dr. Harley explains the taker really well.
Radio clip on the taker
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 05:03 PM
Here are some more. Tell me what you think abount them.
Radio clip on passive aggressive
Segment #2
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 07:30 PM
So not sure what to do. Wife told me she isn't talking to this guy anymore...but he posted a thing about caring for a woman and she said "Amen".

She had told me that she wasn't talking to him anymore but to me that crosses the line. I think her mini-EA won't die.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 08:02 PM
So I guess the real question is...my wife doesn't want to be married because I talked to another girl. She appears to be breaking her word and talking to this guy on Facebook still. If I call her out on it...it just ruins any respect I am trying to show her. She will tell me they are just friends and its a non issue and I am blowing it up.

I feel like its a major catch 22. She has a photoshoot with him this weekend. Should I just keep an eye on it since she isn't even sure she wants to be married?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/14/12 08:06 PM
Did you listen to the radio clips I posted?

Can you email Dr. Harley?

What do you mean photo shoot?

You're still married and she's still your wife. You need to up your snooping?

If she's in an affair then of course she doesn't want to work on the marriage. There are too many redflag here. You need to get to the bottom of it.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 11:08 AM
I listened to the clips.

I am still snooping. My wife is a photographer and she is doing a photoshoot (planned 3 months ago) with this guy and his son. I think she is putting the "communication" with this guy on hold.

She has started telling people that she has been enabling me and that the only way I'll stop is if she leaves the marriage.

She had a photo shoot at 8 am this morning and I ran out to the store to buy her some stuff for her session. I had to get up at 5:45 am to get it for her. Trying to make a love deposit. Didn't even get a thank you. She looked at what I got and only said "They didn't have these in wood?" Not even a thank you :-(
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
So I guess the real question is...my wife doesn't want to be married because I talked to another girl. She appears to be breaking her word and talking to this guy on Facebook still. If I call her out on it...it just ruins any respect I am trying to show her. She will tell me they are just friends and its a non issue and I am blowing it up.

I feel like its a major catch 22. She has a photoshoot with him this weekend. Should I just keep an eye on it since she isn't even sure she wants to be married?
Pheonix, she doesn't have to "like" it when you stand up for your marriage. This falls into the category of doing what is right for you and your family. It is RIGHT to defend your marriage from outside attacks. Regardless of her reaction. It is not a LB just because she doesn't jump for joy every time you do something she doesn't LIKE.

And oh by the way, she's WAYWARD. She's being unfaithful to you right now. And guess what - it's FUN for her. She's enjoying it. So when you threaten that high she gets, well then she'll come up with anything she can to deter you. ANYTHING. She'll make you think you're crazy and she'll say and do anything to get you to stop interferring.

That doesn't make it right to have relationships with members of the opposite sex while you are married. Doing so is wrong and destructive to a marriage. period. Two married people have promised to make each other their SOLE source of emotional needs. She is breaking her promise to you and it is wrong and destructive.

By not saying something you are risking exactly what you fear - her LOSING respect for you. Someday she'll look back and realize that you are RESPECTABLE for defending your marriage. Someday may be too late. That doesn't change what's right and what's wrong.

got it?

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I listened to the clips.

I am still snooping. My wife is a photographer and she is doing a photoshoot (planned 3 months ago) with this guy and his son. I think she is putting the "communication" with this guy on hold.

She has started telling people that she has been enabling me and that the only way I'll stop is if she leaves the marriage.

She had a photo shoot at 8 am this morning and I ran out to the store to buy her some stuff for her session. I had to get up at 5:45 am to get it for her. Trying to make a love deposit. Didn't even get a thank you. She looked at what I got and only said "They didn't have these in wood?" Not even a thank you :-(

Plan A requires that you not expect anything in return for your efforts. Think of the deeds as pebbles under the water that will eventually add up to a dam. You can't see the results ntill there are so many that they rise above the surface.

Plan A is so hard and so emotionally taxing that Dr. Harley only recommends women do it for a month maximum. Why? because they tend to be emotionally destroyed in the process and start to exhibit severe physical symptoms. Men -- he feels can generally tolerate it longer. I believe due to their ability to compartmentalize.

I must have too much female in me because I couldn't tolerate Plan A for long. I couldn't take the abuse. I guess I don't compartmentalize very well.
I needed Plan B to save my sanity and my health. Folks here tried to encourage me. I couldn't see it, and had great fear of various things like her rich Daddy trying to get retribution on me, and winding up with a messy divorce. So I went straight to Plan D when the waywardness continued. All I can say is I did the best I could with what I had at the time. I hope for you that you have more strength than I did; for your kids sake and for your wife's sake, if nothing else.

opt

Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 12:47 PM
When we were going through stuff in Jan...I did plan A from Feb through May until I was so emotionally burnt out I talked to another girl online. All Plan A got me was giving my wife the ability to do whatever she wanted.

So current crisis: Mini-EA:

I have copies of the messages from Facebook where they are supplying each other's emotional needs over a 3 day period. She has stopped talking to him but still has him as a friend on Facebook and has a photoshoot scheduled. She knows I've seen her conversations.

Option 1: Show her the messages I saved and call her out on them and tell her that pouring into each other like that is having an emotional affair and ask her to cancel the photoshoot

Option 2: Let her go to the photoshoot and continue to snoop and see where the situation lands

Option 3: Send the guy on Facebook a message telling him that she is still my wife and he is having an affair with a married woman and as a Christian he should know its wrong.

Right now she isn't even sure if she wants to be married. Her friends say she is "screaming" for her freedom. (Doesn't even wear her wedding ring anymore). She keeps telling people I am a liar and manipulator because I've told people I want to get better and try to fix the marriage. So by talking to anyone else about what she is doing I am told I am manipulative. (Darn straight...I probably am trying to manipulate the situation to save my marriage because its important to me.)
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 01:18 PM
I say all 3 options with the modifications:
Don't "call her out". Be honest. It hurts you greatly to know that she is continuing to have a relationship (or whatever she wants to call it) with this man. Leave it at that. She deserves to know it is painful to you and then can choose her actions (you can't control her actions, but you shouldn't but she can't control your feelings to her behavior...).

Let OM know you are interested in working on your marriage. Honestly tell him what your aim is. Leave out the preaching. He's skorking on another man's wife, he doens't have the moral vocabulary to understand that kind of talk. If he hears the opposite of what your ww is telling him, he might get a bad taste in his mouth about her. It could help him to see how dishonest she is being-- perhaps he WILL have the forsight to not want to be developing something with someone who lies.

Let her scream and dry about her freedom and all that. It means nothing except that she's like every other wayward and until she grows up and puts on the big girl underwear and goes to a lawyer and signs some papers and forks over some dough, she's just another whiney wayward intent on getting what she wants when she wants it the way she wants it. Like a litle baby.

Keep doing what's right, and don't do what's wrong. You can't lose that way.

You can do Plan 1 more than once if you fail the first time(s). It's not a crime. smile

opt
opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 01:33 PM
I tend to always do the wrong thing...so I am putting up alot of thoughts on here so that I don't make the wrong choice out of anger/fear

He will obviously tell my wife that I talked to him and she will get pissed off. Should I give her a head's up before hand?

Right now I can only send him a message on Facebook. The other option is to show up at the photoshoot when she is done with his pictures and talk to him face to face.

I wonder though if I should just wait to see how she comes home after saturday and spending an hour with him doing pictures and see if she talks to him after doing pictures.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 02:22 PM
Here is a draft of the message I would like to send to him:

"I read through the messages you had sent to my wife on Facebook. I have done things I am not proud of and she has been hurt because of that. I am committed to working on myself to be a better husband to her. I am committed to my marriage and my family. My wife is still married and the conversations you two have had are not appropriate under any circumstances. I am asking you to not talk with her while we go through this difficult time in our lives."

The other thing I could do is go to the photo shoot and watch to see their interaction.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Here is a draft of the message I would like to send to him:

"I read through the messages you had sent to my wife on Facebook. I have done things I am not proud of and she has been hurt because of that. I am committed to working on myself to be a better husband to her. I am committed to my marriage and my family. My wife is still married and the conversations you two have had are not appropriate under any circumstances. I am asking you to not talk with her while we go through this difficult time in our lives."

Shorten it up. Strengthen it up. Take out your personal stuff. The letter is a demand for him to cease and desist; don't put in anything in there about your relationship other than the fact that you love your wife. Don't ask him; tell him.

I read through the messages you had sent to my wife on Facebook. I have done things I am not proud of and she has been hurt because of that. I am committed to working on myself to be a better husband to her. I am committed to my marriage and my family. My wife is still married and the conversations you two have had are not appropriate under any circumstances. I am asking you to not talk with her while we go through this difficult time in our lives. I love my wife, and I intend to be the man in her life, because I intend to be better for her than anyone else ever could be. Therefore, I insist that you not talk with her or have contact with her again in any way.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 03:06 PM
I Agree 100% with markos
Opt
And dont ask permission. This is one area where dr h recommends IB is okay
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 03:12 PM
Phoenix, I believe you do need to try to break up your wife's affair. The best way to do that is to cause trouble in it. Let this guy know that you don't want him around your wife. Most waywards are cowards, so if you make things unpleasant for him, he will probably run the other way.

While all that is going on, you still need to be doing the best job you can to win your wife by acting and being attractive, i.e., meeting the emotional needs Dr. Harley talks about, never having any of the Love Busters Dr. Harley talks about, etc.

You will find a thread on this site about Plan A describing it as "the carrot, and the stick." I think you have a good chance of winning your wife back with Plan A, if you do a SUPER job on the carrot, while still wielding the stick. You may have indeed made a mess of things in the past with behavior your wife hated, but like MANY, MANY husbands on this site, you have now seen the light and have here in Marriage Builders the information you need to build a marriage better than ever before, exactly how it was supposed to be from the beginning. You can't demand that your wife give you a chance to do that, but you CAN work to disrupt and end her affair, which is the main thing right now keeping her "fogged out" like a drug addict and uninterested in your marriage.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/15/12 07:53 PM
I agree with markos and opt. You need to send a message to OM.

Here's what Dr. Harley has to say about it.
"I encourage BHs to confront OM" by Dr. Harley

Also this Carrot and Stick of Plan A
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/16/12 11:24 AM
Quote
I tend to always do the wrong thing...so I am putting up alot of thoughts on here so that I don't make the wrong choice out of anger/fear
Pheonix I wanted to point something out yesterday and didn't get to it. Melody once said something to the effect that she tried to do marriage without a plan and it didn't work, that's why she came here.

I think that's true for all of us to some extent. We don't know how to do marriage. We need a plan. Since we are all striving to have the best, most satisfying, and most rewarding marriages, we have sought out some instruction. Fortunately, Dr. Harley has devised a plan that has proven to work to help couples remain "in love" -- which is nothing more than a way to induce certain chemicals in the brain, but it's oh so good when it's done right. :-)

Anyway, how was the photo shoot? I was going to advise you not to show up for fear of punching the guy's lights out, but I couldn't get to that either. Hope all's well.

opt



Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/17/12 01:02 AM
I talked to my wife on Friday telling her I wanted her to cancel her photoshoot. She told me that her business was too important and she couldnļæ½t cancel because she had to protect herself and her business. I had told her Dad that she was talking to OMļæ½back on Monday. He stopped by today to tell my W that she need to stay and work on things. He brought up the fact that she was getting advice from another guy on Facebook. She didnļæ½t say anything but yelled at me after he left. The fact that I bring up her crap to other people and if she wants her crap brought up she should be the one to do it and I am in no place to do it. She yelled at me again for the last time I called her best friend to tell her about my Wļæ½s EA back in the winter and how I ruined some of her friendships and then told me how she couldnļæ½t see our marriage working because I always bring up her crap to other people. It really really frustrated me. She tells me that I talk to people when I get emotionally stressed out and itļæ½s not the right thing to do and I shouldnļæ½t be spreading her crap trying to make her out to be the bad guy and if she did things out of emotional breakdown she probably would have had a PA with the first guy and the second guy.

I didn't see any messages after the photoshoot I honestly think this has been killed off. I'll keep watcing the situation. Hopefully now I can focus on deposits as opposed to having to blow stuff up on the EA front.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/17/12 01:08 AM
So I just got rid of my FB account. Need to stop in the cell phone store this week so I can downgrade away from a smart phone and just have a phone that calls...not sure if there is a way to put a protection on it so I can't text anyone or just her or her and a select # of friends.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/17/12 01:24 AM
Good job and telling your FIL. Commend him for saying something to her. Of course she's angry because, as you know, wayward do not want the light on them.

Here.
Ecellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/17/12 02:44 AM
Listened to the clip...exactly pertains to me.

My wife drops hints at things she wants me to do without. For example last week she told me I should get rid of facebook. I should have done it then. Her dad told me I should get rid of my cell phone and texting. I am fine doing that except my wife loves to text and call me nonstop when things are going well and we have 800 activities going on (slight exageration)..and we have to be able to talk so we know who will meet who where and when. She also doesn't want to have to "spy" or babysit me...so going over my cell phone records doesn't help.

I am thinking that a flip phone might be the best route.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/17/12 12:28 PM
Here is what my wife says her biggest issues are. Its much easier when I am home from the stand point financially and we can get kids to and from much easier. Its really hard on her emotionally and pyschologically because of the hurt I have caused her. In addition she doesn't ever see anyway she could have a physical relationship with me especially because of my sexual issues. She also said she hasn't been attracted to me in a long time. The attraction thing is a really really hard. I go to the gym about 4 days a week and am in great shape. I dress pretty well. I am a shorter and athletic built guy but she is attracted to guys that are like 6 feet dark hair, not really skinny but just kinda "thicker" in build. She keeps telling me that the only reason she chose me was because I was supposed to be the "Safe" guy. I most definatly need to work on my confidence as well. I was a very confident guy until the last few years when our marriage fell apart and alot of junk appeared in it.

She told me she wanted to have a baby again...but the thought of having sex with me to make a baby repulsed her.

She wants to sell the house because it has too many bad memories

She can't stand wearing her wedding rings because they make her sad.

She doesn't want to make the time to go out on dates because she has other priorities. I am actually scared though to push her into going out. Heck I'm scared to ask her out on a date in fear it will push her away. I've always wanted her to drive the relationship because I didn't know how...and I havn't stuck up for myself or my feelings enabling her to walk all over me. (Passive aggressive and selfish which Dr. H talked about)

I could really use some thoughts on the physical intimacy side...I know its way down the road but is it common that a BW feels that way and loses attraction to the WH? Or is this a deep issue that can't come back? What can I do to help her in that process? (This is all contingent if she wants to try and make things work...but I realize if I do nothing then she won't want it to work) Ran to Starbucks on Fathers day to get her some coffee. She didn't get me anything for Father's day and I feel like a horrible dad today because of what my kids are going through.

I am pretty sure my wife is in withdrwal mode. She sent me a "I do NOT love you" email on Friday and has not wanted me to meet any of her emotional needs.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Listened to the clip...exactly pertains to me.

My wife drops hints at things she wants me to do without. For example last week she told me I should get rid of facebook. I should have done it then. Her dad told me I should get rid of my cell phone and texting. I am fine doing that except my wife loves to text and call me nonstop when things are going well and we have 800 activities going on (slight exageration)..and we have to be able to talk so we know who will meet who where and when. She also doesn't want to have to "spy" or babysit me...so going over my cell phone records doesn't help.

I am thinking that a flip phone might be the best route.

Keep a cellphone with records that she can go through any time she wishes. Don't tell her that, just keep it so it's available when she wants it. Let her decide if and when she wants to check up on you, but make it easy.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Here is what my wife says her biggest issues are. Its much easier when I am home from the stand point financially and we can get kids to and from much easier. Its really hard on her emotionally and pyschologically because of the hurt I have caused her. In addition she doesn't ever see anyway she could have a physical relationship with me especially because of my sexual issues. She also said she hasn't been attracted to me in a long time. The attraction thing is a really really hard. I go to the gym about 4 days a week and am in great shape. I dress pretty well. I am a shorter and athletic built guy but she is attracted to guys that are like 6 feet dark hair, not really skinny but just kinda "thicker" in build. She keeps telling me that the only reason she chose me was because I was supposed to be the "Safe" guy. I most definatly need to work on my confidence as well. I was a very confident guy until the last few years when our marriage fell apart and alot of junk appeared in it.

She told me she wanted to have a baby again...but the thought of having sex with me to make a baby repulsed her.

She wants to sell the house because it has too many bad memories

She can't stand wearing her wedding rings because they make her sad.

She doesn't want to make the time to go out on dates because she has other priorities. I am actually scared though to push her into going out. Heck I'm scared to ask her out on a date in fear it will push her away. I've always wanted her to drive the relationship because I didn't know how...and I havn't stuck up for myself or my feelings enabling her to walk all over me. (Passive aggressive and selfish which Dr. H talked about)

I could really use some thoughts on the physical intimacy side...I know its way down the road but is it common that a BW feels that way and loses attraction to the WH? Or is this a deep issue that can't come back? What can I do to help her in that process? (This is all contingent if she wants to try and make things work...but I realize if I do nothing then she won't want it to work) Ran to Starbucks on Fathers day to get her some coffee. She didn't get me anything for Father's day and I feel like a horrible dad today because of what my kids are going through.

I am pretty sure my wife is in withdrwal mode. She sent me a "I do NOT love you" email on Friday and has not wanted me to meet any of her emotional needs.

Phoenix, at this point I think it would be good to try to sell your wife on the Marriage Builders plan for recovery.

Now this is just a first approach, so if she rejects it or isn't interested, don't despair and fall to pieces, okay? If you get emotional, you will get irrational and make a bunch of Love Bank withdrawals, which will only make this harder.

I'm going to describe how to approach her about the Marriage Builders plan for recovery. At this point in time, don't mention the forum to her, because we still want to be able to talk privately to you about her EA until we are sure it is gone, and you need us as a resource to help you. But you want to get her interested in the materials on the main website.

Let her know that you have found a plan from a clinical psychologist who knows how to restore love in a marriage. Let her know that the psychologist says you need to address all of the complaints that she has had in marriage, and that you recognize you've done a lot of things that have disappointed her, and that this plan will require you to fix those things and to stop disappointing her. Then ask her to read through the Basic Concepts:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

She may read through this and decide that this stuff is great, and realize that the two of you can recover!

Also here is Dr. Harley's article on overcoming sexual aversion:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html

It is totally rational at this point that she would be averse to having sex with you. This can be overcome. But it requires fixing your marriage. You are going to have to clean up your act. Here is what Dr. Harley says about sexual problems in marriage:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
One of the greatest sexual inhibitors is a bad relationship. If you and your husband are not getting along very well, and that seems to be the case if he is threatening to leave you, your first order of business is to resolve your marital conflicts by taking each other's feeling into account. I'm afraid that more or better sex will not accomplish that objective. When a couple has a bad relationship, I do not begin by encouraging more sex. First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement.

Go see what your wife says about trying Marriage Builders, then come back here and let us know, one way or the other. Remember to stay calm if she says no, okay?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 02:30 PM
I'll be putting that on my phone tonight. I don't want any secrets about anything. This tracking app also tells her if I download an APP, text, call, email and GPS. She can look at it if and when she wants to. Radical Honesty about everything.

Very "weird/awesome" experiance this morning. I was getting dressed in my room (we sleep in seperate rooms). I was thinking through what my wife had said about selling the house and I had the thought of "If this works we need to get married again". The door of my closet opens slightly on its own...so i opened the door slightly and in the closet was a wedding dress that my wife had purchased to use as a photo prop. All I could do for a minute was stand and stare and have goosebumps... I am a Christian and believe God works in amazing and wonderful ways... I felt sense of hope this morning that I hadn't felt in a long time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I'll be putting that on my phone tonight. I don't want any secrets about anything. This tracking app also tells her if I download an APP, text, call, email and GPS. She can look at it if and when she wants to. Radical Honesty about everything.

Very "weird/awesome" experiance this morning. I was getting dressed in my room (we sleep in seperate rooms). I was thinking through what my wife had said about selling the house and I had the thought of "If this works we need to get married again". The door of my closet opens slightly on its own...so i opened the door slightly and in the closet was a wedding dress that my wife had purchased to use as a photo prop. All I could do for a minute was stand and stare and have goosebumps... I am a Christian and believe God works in amazing and wonderful ways... I felt sense of hope this morning that I hadn't felt in a long time.


Stay with that sense and use markos's direction to sell MB to your wife. Good luck and we're all pulling for you.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 05:51 PM
I suck at doing things in person...I sent her the link and I sent her pretty much what you wrote. I sold it to her (which is how I also feel) that this program allows her to address all her issues with me and gives me things to work on.

I do know that she has not forgiven me what happened last month. I also realized...she has probably been out of Love with me for a long time.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 07:18 PM
I sent my wife the email and she didn't take offense to it...but she said she wasn't ready for something like this. Can I honestly say something...for the first time in a long time I am proud of myself for speaking up to her. I was terriried a few months ago to even suggest this.

I imagine most everyone has problems getting a spouse to want to try if that spouse is not in love.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 07:23 PM
Yes, that is the case. There is usually one reluctant spouse. Sometimes some of the folks from the Marriage Builders coaching center can talk them into giving it a try.

Will she go out with you, Phoenix? Your next best bet is to get your wife out on frequent dates and make massive Love Bank deposits.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/18/12 07:51 PM
She wants to talk to her counselor first.

Everyone is telling her she needs to stay married and work on it...if not for her sake...then for the kids sake.

For the time being I am working on making love bank deposits the best I can. The last time she was on bed rest after surgery for 3 days and I had to take care of her...that really meant alot to her then.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/19/12 05:03 PM
Just asked my wife to dinner and a movie on Friday. (Her birthday is Sunday) Pray for me...and wish me luck. (I already got her a present) I also have decided that if she says no...I am going to get her choice of carry out and we will rent a pay per view movie instead.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/19/12 06:32 PM
Dont expect much, 20. Just keep doing the right thing for the right reason and dont losten to the fog babble.
Dr harley has said that when there is infidelty ( or lots of ib), planning " surprises" is ill-advised.
I dont do surprises even with fiance because it just feels lke ib which was devastating to my marriage.
Opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/19/12 06:59 PM
Im watching the EA front. I didn't send him a message yet but he sent something to my wife on Facebook: I typed it out as follws:

"You are too sweet! God has a plan for you... You see beauty where there doens't seem to be any. Youve been done wrong, God fogives but he doesn't forget. I hope you all the best because you deserve every bit of it...I'll pray directly for you, tell me it doesn't help and I won't believe you. Everything I've prayed for, HAS COME TRUE! I dont' ask much, but he helps me. I want to slap your husband but thats not christian. Get a hold of me when u feel down..Ok?"

Today she posted pictures of him and his son on there and he was overly complimentary on the pictures. In addition she asked a question as to whether our daughter should do cheer or gymnascits...and he felt it necessary to add his own comment.

She says she is ignoring him...I just have a feeling its not going to stop.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/19/12 08:43 PM
Two-Oh,
Do you know what prompted the communication by him? Are you able to monitor the messages she sends him?

You're in Plan A, right? Plan A is pretty specific. Keep Meeting EN's when you can and Dont commit any LB's. (but don't be a doormat, either).

I think you should have sent the message to OM, but I don't think it's too late. -- I was surprised you didn't. We all spent a fair amount of time advising you and editing the correspondence for you. But then you do nothing. How are we supposed to help you when you don't take our suggestions? People will eventually get frustrated and stop trying to help. People here have a lot of experience with this type of thing and if you imjplement the suggestions, in the long run usually good things happen.

I think the suggestion was to do what you could to disrupt the affair while in your plan A. What else are you doing to disrupt the affair?

opt

Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/19/12 09:07 PM
I am monitoring all communications. Right now my wife isn't communicating back. It gets sticky because he is a client (photography) for her. Right now she is giving him a very professional treatment and they are not communicating in any other way. Obviously he is making some Depsoits into her account...I just know that if she found out it would be a massive LB on my part. I told her how I felt about his message this morning and that I wanted to kick his butt. She said she just wants it to go away and the best thing she can think of is just ignore it. In the past she has not wanted me to get into her problems because she doesn't like the drama.

The reason I didn't say anything was because since this weekend my wife hasn't talked to him outside the context of work. He is trying and its pretty obvious but she isn't saying anything back. Because she hasn't said anything to him that was questionable I decided it wasn't worth pissing her off.

I am avoiding all Love Busters and was emailing my wife about some diet thing she wanted to try off and on today.

If he sends her anything that is questionable I will email him. I have the email drafted and saved; all I need to do is hit send.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 01:00 PM
How do I hold onto love when I feel like I am getting pummeled by hate from my wife while trying to make deposits. Its like my very presence annoys her. Last night she pointed out how I do a funny thing with my mouth when I am cooking and called it weird.

My six year old brought his cupcake up stairs and little pieces of cupcake broke off and fell on the floor. My wife yelled at me for not watching him and told me that I essentially got the floor dirty. She pointed out each crumb on the carpet with her foot and told me to pick them up. "there is one, there is another one, one over there". I felt like a piece of crap and totally humiliated. (My kids were upstairs getting dressed) All I wanted to do was help so I picked them up and I felt like crap.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 05:24 PM
20
Quote
I am avoiding all Love Busters and was emailing my wife about some diet thing she wanted to try off and on today.

If he sends her anything that is questionable I will email him. I have the email drafted and saved; all I need to do is hit send.
You can't make up your own lovebusters. Protecting your marriage is not a lovebuster. Telling some fool to stay away from your wife is not a lovebuster. Telling a business associate "I'd like to punch your husband" is not appropriate, and is NOT business related, it's personal and frankly that your wife DIDN"T respond is very telling and sickly concerning. She's complicit in her tacitness.

Just because she gets mad, doesn't make it a lovebuster. You have rights in this relationship too, regardless of what you feel you "deserve" because of your past behavior (which is BS, by the way). Tell me what LB it is to inform someone your intentions about your marriage and reminding them of what happens to people who mess with other people's wives (okay, now I'm upset)..,.
IB, Maybe yes, but again, there are exceptions to engaging in IB. This is a situation where you are HELPING not hurting your marriage. IB is required to kill an affair.

opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 07:18 PM
I JUST sent him the email. SO NERVOUS NOW! He said something to her again.

"I read through all of the messages you had sent to my wife on Facebook. My wife is still married and the conversations you two have had are not appropriate under any circumstances. I love my wife, and I intend to be the man in her life, because I intend to be better for her than anyone else ever could be. Therefore, I insist that you not talk with her or have contact with her again in any way."
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 07:36 PM
On the good news side...my wife is starting to tell people that she isn't wanting to throw 10 years of marriage away and I am in counseling. So thats a positive
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
I JUST sent him the email. SO NERVOUS NOW! He said something to her again.

"I read through all of the messages you had sent to my wife on Facebook. My wife is still married and the conversations you two have had are not appropriate under any circumstances. I love my wife, and I intend to be the man in her life, because I intend to be better for her than anyone else ever could be. Therefore, I insist that you not talk with her or have contact with her again in any way."

No need to be nervous. You did the right thing for your marriage. You have a right to protect yourself and those who are dear to you. You have a right to protect your family. You have a right to redirect some scumbag who thinks it's cute to intervene in someone else's life including deeply affecting a young child. You have nothing to be ashamed of and you can stand proudly by your actions. NO Matter What anyone says.

I have news for you, in spite of wifey's initial reaction, she respects you deep down for standing up to this weasle. She never thought you'd do it. She's happy to know shomeone would stand up for her and her marriage. It's a strong courageous thing you did, 20, and it is NOT going un-noticed by your WW. Once the fog clears, sh'ell look back on this as one of the first steps in her recovery.

DO NOT APOLOGIZE for this! (emphasizing, not shouting). Listen respectfully to what she says, and let her know you don't see things the same way, but NEVER say you're sorry for doing the right thing.

We still need to talk about the muffin crumb incident, but for now:
You done good!

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 08:15 PM
LEt soneone know about the email, who are supportive of your marriage. So she doesn't have a chance to spin it. ASk them for further support.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/20/12 09:34 PM
Also is the OM married?
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 03:13 AM
now as for this:
Quote
My six year old brought his cupcake up stairs and little pieces of cupcake broke off and fell on the floor. My wife yelled at me for not watching him and told me that I essentially got the floor dirty. She pointed out each crumb on the carpet with her foot and told me to pick them up. "there is one, there is another one, one over there". I felt like a piece of crap and totally humiliated. (My kids were upstairs getting dressed) All I wanted to do was help so I picked them up and I felt like crap.
twozero,
This is sick, pathologic, cruel, and inhumane behavior on the part of your ww. It's abusive and diabolical.
Are you ready to tolerate this type of treatment (and worse) for the rest of your life? Are you ready to set an example for your children that this type of treatment of another human being is acceptable? Don't think they aren't well aware of what goes on between you two.

Remember, Plan A has nothing to do with allowing yourself to be a doormat, much less being abused and humiliated in your own home. This is not Plan A. It is not MB. It is not sane. And there is NO excuse for this type of cruelty. None. Allowing it to happen once (for any reason that seems to make sense at the time or even with later justifications) makes it okay forever. It's not okay.

I have grave concerns for your children. If she treats her husband like this, there is no telling how she is, or will eventually treat her kids.

I urge you to think long and hard about your ww's tendencies and try and evaluate objectively if this is a safe environment for you or your kids, in the long term.

Plan B may be crucial for you to get some perspective. But in the meantime, please keep in mind that Plan A never says anything about tolerating disrespect and humiliation. You are God's creature Phoenix. God does not want his children to be humiliated.

opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 11:59 AM
The OM emailed me back...more than once. He said he didn't want to be with my wife and that he had just got done praying for us and he appreciated me approaching him in a Chrisitan fasion. He totally did a 180 on the situation. Optimism, Markos, and Brianhurts - THANKS for the push on doing this.

I got my wife a thing for her camera for her Birthday. She told me she is too sad to even want to celebrate her birthday. We have vaguely discussed that if this works we need to get remarried, new rings, new wedding ceremony..etc. She won't wear her rings now becaues they make her feel sad. My thought was to get her a (Cubic Zirconium) wedding ring as a new start for her birthday to remind her that this is a new begining. Gives her something to wear to feel married and remind her that I am working on a new start.

(I just don't want this to push her away though and seem like too much)
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 12:41 PM
OM is not married. He is a single father. (Wanted to answer your question...but I think this killed the conversations).
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 12:54 PM
Good job on confronting OM. He's a typical OM and they run and hide their tail when confronted.

OM=Spinless

Give her time to get through withdrawal. Maybe even get her into the doctor for some ADs to help?

Be consistent and keep filling her lovebank with lots of deposits.
Also her anger and disgusting parenting to your DS shows she is in major conflict. Did she show these signs before her affair?
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 01:16 PM
She showed some of these signs before the affair but not as much. They come and go. She suffers from PTSD which may also contribute to the situation. She has been feeling very very angry towards me ever since mid May when I crossed the line with another girl on Facebook. The anger side of it appears to be lessening. However she has been pretty sad the past few days. So sad that she doesn't even want to celebrate her birthday.

Does buying her a new ring for her birthday on Sunday...help or hurt the situation?
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 04:28 PM
I dont love the ring idea right now. That can be something you do together, not as ib.
Just provide a nice stable loving environment with no lovebusters. A place where she can count on for consistency from the chaos that has overtaken your livea lately.
My opinion
Opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 05:10 PM
Here was my thought on it. (And I honestly got it today during lunch) This is an inbetween ring. She can wear it now and then we would redo our wedding and get new rings then (something we do together). This ring she could wear out while on vacation and stuff. Its a simple wedding ring. I obviously can take it back. I wanted this to be something that she can wear without feeling sad from the past.

It obviously doesn't "fix" anything...and she might not wear it. The biggest action I can give her is consistant stablity and love on a daily basis.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 05:12 PM
My opinion is that's way too much thought for the ring plan. Focus for now on building the romantic love that will make such a symbol more meaningful.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 05:22 PM
So...my wife sent me an email today telling me she wants to sell our house and get a different one. Alot of bad stuff happened in that house. She came back there after her EA...I did stuff that hurt her emotionally there. It would be a "new" start.
Posted By: markos Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
So...my wife sent me an email today telling me she wants to sell our house and get a different one. Alot of bad stuff happened in that house. She came back there after her EA...I did stuff that hurt her emotionally there. It would be a "new" start.

That is a great idea, and is something that Dr. Harley often recommends.

Is there any reason you are in MB101 forum now instead of surviving an affair or in recovery? I'm kind of confused at this point what state you are in. Just a couple posts back up is talking about confronting OM, which sounds more like SAA material.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 06:28 PM
I asked the MODs to move this to 101...because we have a number of different things going on. (SAA might be more appropriate?) Some EA's on both ends...we are "seperated" she doesn't love me...need help on making Deposits...lots of issues for both of us to work though. I am hoping this moves into the recovery phase but right now she doesn't want to actually put any work in...just sit back and survive. I am working on the recovery side of it. I am fine with any catagory and have greatly appreciated the guidance offered!!!!!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 06:30 PM
I would move to SAA.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 06:34 PM
Asked to move to SAA. FIND ME OPTIMIST!!!!
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 11:01 PM
Well been a rough night. OM IM'd my wife on Facebook to tell her that I sent him a few emails. She got so pissed off telling me I have no right to know who she talks to and she doesn't want me looking at her stuff or interfering with her support system. And that she knew he would stick up for her and defended him alot. I told her I wished I had done this back in the winter when she had her EA...and she told me that would have been stuipd because he would have driven over here and tried to beat me up. I am going to assume this is typical...but she is really pissed. I knew that if I talked about it first she would have told me no and was mad that I didn't run it past her first. UGH I AM SO ANGRY the fact that she stood up for her other EA guy.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 11:09 PM
SAA. Keylog for her FB password, and shut it down. Hang on!
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 11:20 PM
I have a keylog on it from her last EA.....CWMI keep in mind I have had in appropriate conversations on line with girls. So its not like she is the only one at fault. Its just hard because she wants to be able to do whatever she wants. There definatly was an emotional outpouring on Facebook...

And he told her that she needed to delete the conversations. Amazing how people need to delete conversations when there is "nothing" to hide.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/21/12 11:34 PM
You need to expose her affair now.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 12:13 AM
When she had her affair last time all of the important people in her life told me it was nothing and he meant nothing and I needed to stay out of it. She told me she had to find a friend that wouldn't be "tainted" by Dan. Because all I manipulate everyone in her life...and I always say the right things...In her world me standing up for marriage is manipulating everyone.

I have to think alot about how much I want this to work.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 01:22 AM
That's why you use the template from here and you won't sound manipulative at all.

You could add a line saying. I know I had an EA back in xyz. I am putting in the changes now to be a better husband and I want to save my marriage, but I can't remain married with three in our marriage.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
FB or email exposure letter to family and friends of YOUR WS - this was written by board member, Underdog:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a old boyfriend named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Asked to move to SAA. FIND ME OPTIMIST!!!!
No worries, Twenty.
You'll get a lot good help here. Folks here have a good understanding of the importance of exposure here but also the need for a good Plan A and how to do it right.

Persistence pays off, so keep at it Phoenix. Good things are already happening because of the positive changes you've made in your life so far. Make no mistake about that.

opt
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Well been a rough night. OM IM'd my wife on Facebook to tell her that I sent him a few emails. She got so pissed off telling me I have no right to know who she talks to and she doesn't want me looking at her stuff or interfering with her support system. And that she knew he would stick up for her and defended him alot. I told her I wished I had done this back in the winter when she had her EA...and she told me that would have been stuipd because he would have driven over here and tried to beat me up. I am going to assume this is typical...but she is really pissed. I knew that if I talked about it first she would have told me no and was mad that I didn't run it past her first. UGH I AM SO ANGRY the fact that she stood up for her other EA guy.

You're coming from the position of strength, so in contrast her wild emotions are evidence of major discomfort. That's good. It's not supposed to be comfortable to do something devious. You've done well and are disrupting her ability to carry out clandestine activities. You've put a crack in the crack pipe and of course she's going to act with vehemence. No matter. You're the one who is stable here, not her and not OM's. At the end of the day (month/year) you will be the one standing on truth and honesty, and courage for standing up for your family.

The fog babble still amazes me. I don't hang out in SAA, but I still find it mind-blowing how illogical people become when they are being unfaithful.
"Support System," "no right to know...," "he would stick up for (me)..." "support system" crazy
How the human mind can twist things into something so backwards is truly remarkable.

I reiterate. Don't apologize for doing the right thing and standing up for yourself and your family. You did the RIGHT thing. By not apologizing (no matter what vitriol she spews at you) you let her know that this is NOT a marriage where infidelity is tolerated. You make it an uncomfortable choice for her. You take some of the fun out of hitting the infidelity crack pipe.

opt


Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 12:14 PM
Thanks for the responses...I am really really angry at her and my love bank is in the red x10000000000 with her so its really hard for me to type anything that will be helpful. She feels like she has a right to privacy so she can talk about her feelings to whomever she wants. To me that is not a marriage... I am so mad and wonder why I am even trying right now.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Thanks for the responses...I am really really angry at her and my love bank is in the red x10000000000 with her so its really hard for me to type anything that will be helpful. She feels like she has a right to privacy so she can talk about her feelings to whomever she wants. To me that is not a marriage... I am so mad and wonder why I am even trying right now.
Are you going to expose to OM family and friends and your WW's facebook friends?
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/22/12 06:49 PM
You do know the difference between Privacy and Secrecy, Right?

Privacy is going to the restroom with the door closed. Secrecy? Well you know what that is..
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/25/12 12:20 PM
So its been a rough couple of days with some ups and downs. Yesterday was my wife's birthday. Things went pretty well. This morning my wife told me that she feels like I am trying to fix everything and I am trying to step into the role of Father and Husband and into a leadership position in my family. She gets angry with me because she views me as the guest.

I am guessing that I am trying to do too much again and smothering her...Today is probably a bad day for her. Its so hard for me to give her space.
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/25/12 06:00 PM
From my wife's perspective she is filled with a lot of anger from my betrayl of her. She feels like she needs to deal with that 1 on 1 with her counselor before going to joint counseling...if we make it that far. What can I do to help her get through her anger? Just give it time?
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/26/12 08:51 PM
You can only stop doing whatever it was that made her angry.


Then hope she eventually sees that this "anger" is a choice she's making. I doubt however if her counselor will grasp that, much less anything that will help your marriage; typically they stay employed simply by making people feel good anout making bad choices.

So, yea, just patience and strict adherence to your goal of being a better pheonix.

On the above, if you are contributing to her view of you as a "guest" by portraying yourself as a guest, then i suggest you stop it. Immediately.

She doesn't have to like it, but you have just as much claim to your house as she does. Thats not smothering her, its self-respect. And if she reacts violently please call the police. Please dont let your kids grow up thinking disrespectful behavior is acceptable. It is not.

..,And you dont control other peoples' actions, they do. Its called responsibility and its a gift from God that few choose to embrace because its easier to blame someone else for their own deplorable behavior.

Opt
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/28/12 02:42 PM
OPT...i always look forward to your posts.

So progress has been made: I revealed to her that I was sexually abused once as a child and had a teacher slap me in the face and another teacher slam me up against a locker to yell at me. She was very supportive and glad I shared that kind of stuff with her. (She helped dig that out of my past). We have been sleeping in the same bed the past few nights which is also good. We are looking at houses and considering moving. Fresh start. She asked me to rub her feet last night and I did. Slow and steady progress is being made. She is meeting with her counselor today at noon...so that may either help or hurt the situation. Its been a rough road and both her and I have a lot of individual recovery to do in addition to recovering our marriage.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/28/12 02:54 PM
That Is good. Maybe buy a foot care kit from the department store? Thy cost about $16.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/29/12 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
OPT...i always look forward to your posts.

So progress has been made: I revealed to her that I was sexually abused once as a child and had a teacher slap me in the face and another teacher slam me up against a locker to yell at me. She was very supportive and glad I shared that kind of stuff with her. (She helped dig that out of my past). We have been sleeping in the same bed the past few nights which is also good. We are looking at houses and considering moving. Fresh start. She asked me to rub her feet last night and I did. Slow and steady progress is being made. She is meeting with her counselor today at noon...so that may either help or hurt the situation. Its been a rough road and both her and I have a lot of individual recovery to do in addition to recovering our marriage.
I'm very happy for you and encouraged Pheonix. I commend you for your patience and understanding. I hope you can continue to look at things through your MB-eyes. EG: househunting can be VERY stressful, so you'll have to be particularly patient and calm with good andherence to conversation skills of listening and making sure your partner feels heard and understood. But don't agree to something you don't like, because it will cause you to develop resentment (daily, if you are living there). Know what I'm saying?
Hey, this is a great example of why MB is better than "counsellors" out there. I bet her's would advise her to look for 'compromises' and 'give-and-take' solutions. MB looks for win-win and solutions taht are better than either of you could have found indifidually...
Quote
I revealed to her that I was sexually abused once as a child and had a teacher slap me in the face and another teacher slam me up against a locker to yell at me.
Radical Honesty. Good stuff. It's important for you to know as much about each other as possible. It make you feel closer. Isn't it amazing she never knew this in all this time? So many marraiges have things like that. You're not going to dwell on that stuff though, right? It's in your past and doesn't really have to have an influence on your current behavior if you don't want it to, right? You can change your brain chemistry with repeated behaviors which become habits which repeated become part of your character. Right?
Quote
Its been a rough road and both her and I have a lot of individual recovery to do in addition to recovering our marriage.

These types of statements still baffle me about you Phoenix. Why not just follow the MB plan? Identify and eliminate Lovebusters. Identify and meet each other's emotional needs. Recreat your behaviors and habits. Fall in love with each other. Seems way more simple than "working on" something. And way more fun, in my view.

All this "individual recovery" business just sounds like "Individual Behavior" to me.

[If you found that opening up to her was helpful, you may consider some of the workbook material, historical inventory stuff which can be found here somewhere...]

opt
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/29/12 01:43 AM
Is this what you're talking about opt?
Personal History questionnaire
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/29/12 12:59 PM
that
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is this what you're talking about opt?
Personal History questionnaire

that would be the one, brain. you are just so efficient. thanks for everything.
opt
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 06/29/12 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by optimism
that
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is this what you're talking about opt?
Personal History questionnaire

that would be the one, brain. you are just so efficient. thanks for everything.
opt
smile
Posted By: Phoenix20 Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 07/06/12 02:09 PM
Thanks Brain and OPT...things have been getting better each week since my last post. I have a feeling thats a trend on here. We got rid of our cable and have been spending more time together. I am really focusing on cutting out my own IB which I didn't realize I was doing in certain areas. I've also been working on radical honesty with her.

I think we are going to wait till next year to put our house up for sale. I don't think rushing through the process of house selling would be helpful. We have kids so we are taking that into consideration as well. I just have to keep doing all the right things everyday.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 07/07/12 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix20
Thanks Brain and OPT...things have been getting better each week since my last post. I have a feeling thats a trend on here. We got rid of our cable and have been spending more time together. I am really focusing on cutting out my own IB which I didn't realize I was doing in certain areas. I've also been working on radical honesty with her.

I think we are going to wait till next year to put our house up for sale. I don't think rushing through the process of house selling would be helpful. We have kids so we are taking that into consideration as well. I just have to keep doing all the right things everyday.


Great to hear it Phoenix!
I'd like to know more about how things are better. I think spendign more time together is so crucial because (especially with your histories...) it's a good way to build trust with each other.
How are you meeting her needs? Have you identified her specific EN's? Have you continued to eliminate LBs? Are you using POJA ("what are your thoughts on....?"). [POJA is great for IB, by the way -- it's hard to do IB if you are using POJA]. How much UA time per week (with RC, Intimate Conversation, etc)?

--Phoenix, when you post here, do you do it in full view?...I can imagine working on a computer would be a scary trigger for your wife...

Not sure how you pulled off the eliminating cable but what a boost that is going to be for your family and your marriage. I personally guarantee it as I have had very little tv in the house for 2.5 years (it always seems to have problems and I am very unmotivated to fix it, we only have basic, and I got rid of all but one t.v. the day after the separation). My kids don't really seem to miss it and we do a lot of things together that we probably wouldn't otherwise. I miss some sports, but it's a small price to pay. Last night D16 came in with a friend to watch the yankees/redsox and the box was not working so guess what? they listened to it on the radio! What a concept!

Anyway, I also like that you are using a lot of RA. It might be frightening for both of you but ultimately I believe the sense of intimacy increases as you know more and more about each other; things you wouldn't share with anyone else except a lifelong partner.

post when you can 20, and I'm glad things are turning around. It's a big ship, so be patient. smile

opt
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 07/07/12 08:36 PM
How much UA are you actually getting? What are you doing during that time?

Without 15 hrs of UA, you can throw this program out the window.
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 07/10/12 03:50 PM
20,
I agree with BH that a couple of the basic concepts are essential for the success of the program. POJA, UA, they are at the core.
I also have come to the recognition that this program takes time to learn implement, practice, master, and then re-tool as you go along. All worth it, but not always easy.
With the need for time comes the need for patience.

The best thing is that none of the efforts put into learning the concepts and implementing them into your own life could possibly be anything but beneficial. I've come to believe in this program through trial and error and real introspection into my past and the troubles I've run into can almost always be run up against lack of adnherance to the concepts here (dishonesty, lack of UA). Sure I didn't know waht any of it was at the time, but with an honest look-back, it does reveal some truths.

Anyway, I was going to say that I have now been using the program with someone who is 100% for it and has been learning along with me. For about a year. And we still have our struggles, so that says it's not easy (and we're both pretty smart, so it's not due to incapability, lol). However, what a refresshing year (and a half) it's been; there is SO LITTLE drama, using these concepts. If there's a question about something, you just ask, respectfully. And if there's something on your mind you just say it, resepctfully. And if you want to do something you POJA it, respectfully; often coming up with a better idea than you had in the first place. You never do something you don't like because it's not encouraged; nor does your spouse.

There's no need for heated conversations because you use the friends of good conversation. You dont' ahve AO's or have to worry about the other person AOing you! and you dont' have to worry about being harmed by a DJ and you never have to feel bad after using an DJ...because you don't do it! There is so much more intimacy and trust and caring in a MB relationship it's really remarkable. That people sometimes don't want to get it.... I find that amazing.

opt
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 07/11/12 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by optimism
20,
I agree with BH that a couple of the basic concepts are essential for the success of the program. POJA, UA, they are at the core.
I also have come to the recognition that this program takes time to learn implement, practice, master, and then re-tool as you go along. All worth it, but not always easy.
With the need for time comes the need for patience.

The best thing is that none of the efforts put into learning the concepts and implementing them into your own life could possibly be anything but beneficial. I've come to believe in this program through trial and error and real introspection into my past and the troubles I've run into can almost always be run up against lack of adnherance to the concepts here (dishonesty, lack of UA). Sure I didn't know waht any of it was at the time, but with an honest look-back, it does reveal some truths.

Anyway, I was going to say that I have now been using the program with someone who is 100% for it and has been learning along with me. For about a year. And we still have our struggles, so that says it's not easy (and we're both pretty smart, so it's not due to incapability, lol). However, what a refresshing year (and a half) it's been; there is SO LITTLE drama, using these concepts. If there's a question about something, you just ask, respectfully. And if there's something on your mind you just say it, resepctfully. And if you want to do something you POJA it, respectfully; often coming up with a better idea than you had in the first place. You never do something you don't like because it's not encouraged; nor does your spouse.

There's no need for heated conversations because you use the friends of good conversation. You dont' ahve AO's or have to worry about the other person AOing you! and you dont' have to worry about being harmed by a DJ and you never have to feel bad after using an DJ...because you don't do it! There is so much more intimacy and trust and caring in a MB relationship it's really remarkable. That people sometimes don't want to get it.... I find that amazing.

opt
Another fantastic post, opt. Thanks. clap

20, are you still there?
Posted By: optimism Re: Not my idea but I deserve it - 07/12/12 10:17 AM
Quote
Another fantastic post, opt. Thanks.

20, are you still there?

Why, thank you Brain! I know my grammar gets sloppy from time to time. It's just because I'm in a hurry, but I know what I want to say, so hopefully my point gets accross. smile

[I believe 20 is frequenting the site a little less, hopefully in an effort to spend more time with the family and concentrate on implementing the tools he's learned. ]

However, I was going to say, Phoenix, that I believe that when you are comfortable, I think posting to others would be very helpful to you. It would be great if you and your wife could post together, or perhaps pick a thread that is similar to your situation and see if you can come up with some guidance for the person. I believe teaching is the best way to learn and you have enough knowledge to start it. Again, it would be great to have your wife on board so she isn't excluded and it wouldn't be independent behavior.

that was a thought I had.

opt
© Marriage BuildersĀ® Forums