I was informed of this site/program through one of the first individual counselors I saw. I read through some of the forum several years ago and have just lately returned and read some more. I have read through wulffpack_girl's thread nearly in its entirety as well as some others. It is strikingly eerie how everyone's situation is different, but the "same" as mine. I see so many similarities in the WF's and BS's.

I am a BH. My wife and I have been together since early 2001. We moved in together in Aug 2001 and married in late 2003. We have one perfect little boy who was born in 2006. W began the first known affair sometime in 2005. Iwas told that there was ABSOLUTELY nothing going on with anyone or anywhere when I confronted. Even though I laid out some (not near all) of the evidence I had. Was a disaster. Never thought she could do it to me, let alone lie to my face when confronted. Story changed to having contact w/ OM (fellow eomployee to W) because he was having problems with his fiancee. "Friends Only". W agreed to NC unless work related even though they were "just friends" and had never been together anywhere outside of work. My W even quit her job after our child was born about 8 months later (Yes...do the math) and found new employment elsewhere. Again agreeing to absolutely no contact with her "friend" now that they didnt work together. "New" job lasted almost a year until the boss supposedly physically backed her into a corner. The guy was truly messed up. W walked out and quit and was immediately hired at the previous place of employment. I was not happy about the return to the place and once again reiterated no contact with the "friend". Agreed. Less than 2 months after she started back, I found out they were "conversing" again. I flipped my lid. Wife went to an attorney and filed for divorce. Told me I was crazy and she wanted out. We talked and the divorce was smothered out. Was told again that there was nothing going on and no one else. She actually told me that I was making stuff up in my head. Fast forward to 2012...I've always felt that my wife has painted me out to her fellow co-workers as an [censored] or lets them think that anyhow. They have seen how I question what she does, but don't know any of the past. A text that a co-worker sent after I had to go get my W out of a bar with my 5 1/2 yr old in my arms set me off! I walked downstaris and asked her if she would be willing to submit to a polygraph regarding what she had told me over the past 7 years. She caved and said she had spent the day and slept (unprotected, while on fertility meds) with the "just friend" while I was out of town in 2005. Obviously not great for me! Over the next several days we had discussions...she still swore what she told me a few nights prior was all there was to tell. In all my snooping over the past 7 years and up until now, I knew that wasn't the case. any of the evidence I provided, she had a story to build around it. Almsot a month and a half later she told me she had slept with the OM on another occassion prior to my trip. Had never ceased contact at all. When she switched jobs they were communicating via email and text. Even more communication after she returned to the old place of employment. Right up until the OM quit his job in November of 2011.

Things are not good. We've been to a MC that was horrible in my opinion. Wife even sat in the sessions and blatantly lied to me and the couselor! I have told her EXACTLY what I need to move forward and am still getting trickle truthed. How do I know? I now have piles of evidence, but have learned not to tell WW all that I know. She's become quite good at concocting stories that don't add up. I'm a mess. I'm lost. There are some WW's on this forum that sound (and probably are) like they are doing anything and everything to save their marriage. Mine is not. She will tell me she is trying, but I've told her what I need and continue to get stories. I've retained a divorce attorney and have made sure my situation is well protected should I make the decision to walk away. I don't want to leave, but what else do you do???

Have you determined if the child is yours? Have you done some reading on this site? Get a hold of Surviving An Affair asap, it will be like a road map to you. Do you want to save this marriage? Did you expose to everyone...her family/friends, your family/friends, her job, OM's wife if he has one, etc? Document proof of A. You can build a good M but only if both of you are on board and willing to follow MBs.

Is the child yours? Does she still work with the OM? Is she still in contact with the OM?

Also, is the OM married or engaged now?

BHF, I would suggest some things that you need to insist of your WW if you have any hope of recovering this marriage:

1. She leaves that job. NOW. NO NOTICE.
2. Polygragh.
3. DNA test to determine the paternity of your child.
4. Complete transparency - you have all passwords to all accounts and cell phone.
5. NC letter to OM, written by her, approved by you. YOU go with her to mail it.

Is this bottom-feeder married? I would suggest that you go with her on her last day at work (TOMORROW) to clean out her desk and speak with her supervisor. The two of you can explain to him that she is quitting with no notice because of her adulterous affair with OM, and that you certainly expect the supervisor to give her a good recommendation if she chooses to use him for a reference.

I apologize that my initial post was a very compact Reader's Digest version. I have limited time to spend on the computer.

I have had 2 paternity tests done by 2 different labs. One in late 2007 and one in late 2011. Both tests came back "Inconclusive". I am not sure why. Our child looks like my clone, so I am fairly certain, but the lingering possibility is still there that he is not.

I did a fair amount of reading on the site a few years ago, but need to brush up now. I will get the book. I have "Not Just Friends" right now. I read it and it was a very good book; wished we had read it even prior to our marriage. Wife has been reading on it off and on for about 4 or 5 months.

I ABSOLUTELY want to save my marriage, but there are things my W needs to do to help me. The initial suspiscion of the A was exposed to her family and my family. My parents know everything I know. As far as I know, my wife has only told her family that she slept with the OM on a whim on the day I was out of town in 2005. She has lied to everyone else as well. The OM was engaged, then married when this was going on. That marriage has since ended in D. He now has a child with a woman to whom he is engaged. This would be his 4th or 5th engagement and at least 3rd marriage. I did try to tell OM's W there was something going on back in 2005 or 6, but she absolutely refused to believe what I said and chose to believe what the OM told her. I have mixed feelings about saying anything the the OM's current fiancee. I have very good documentation of the A; emails, deleted texts retrieved off W's phone, phone call documentation, etc. Flexispy, GPS, text recovery, co-worker & employer supplied me with majority of email correspondence through work. I went in earlier this year and talked to her boss. He did supply me with access to the "logged" emails, however it is interesting that he left some out. I have other emails from the co-worker that helped me that the boss didn't present.

I am willing to do whatever it takes; W however has told me that neither of us need to go back in time...we just need to move forward...

See above for answer to your first question. The OM quit his job there in November of 2011. He lives and works in a town about 45 miles away, but has family and friends here. W says she has not seen or communicated with him in any way since then, but I've been told the same on numerous occassions over the past 7 years. OM sent a FB friend request to our joint FB account early this year and I came unwound on him. He had choice things to call me in return... I would be VERY surprised if they haven't been in contact at some point since then, but W says absolutely not.

Yes and no. You need to go back in time to get all the facts of the affair. Part of recovery is that she tell you the entire truth about the affair. The first step, though, is for her to end all contact with the OM for life and affair proof your marriage.

And I would most certainly expose the affair to the OM's fiance. This is a long term affair that has broken up one marriage already. The OM's fiance needs to know that your wife is her enemy so she can protect her relationship.

Has she ended all contact? When was the last contact?

OM is engaged again. More detail in my reply above.

Do you have a GPS on her phone or car? One way you can tell there has been no contact is for her to take a polygraph.

And I would most certainly delete the facebook page since that is one way he can contact your wife. She needs to eliminate any known method of contact, such as changing cell phone #s, email addresses, etc. That is all part of affair proofing your marriage.

If your wife won't take those steps, then you should consider separating and going into Plan B. I get the sense that your wife doesn't take your marriage very seriously. As such, you are headed for a death of a thousand cuts if she doesn't make radical changes.

Last admitted contact by W was the day the OM quit his job where they both worked in November of 2011. W had a missed call from OM on her phone on Christmas eve 2011, but still claims absolutely no contact since he left his job.

Could she pass a polygraph to that effect?

Maritalbliss,

1. I asked her to leave the job in 2005... she did after she had our child in mid-2006. She was gone for about a year and went back against my wishes, but she needed a job at the time. Had I known everything then that i know now, I would have left when she chose to go back with her complete knowledge of what went on before. I have again asked her to leave and she basically is refusing. Especially since the OM is now gone. There was another married man that she told me about through all of this that is also a manager and actively pursued her for at least a year. Was even "written up" by HR dept. for it. Happened about 2 years ago and I was never told about it until early this year. She actually went directly to the OM and told him about it.

2. I asked for a ploygraph which is when she confessed that she slept with the OM on only one occassion. I again asked for a polygraph when she said she had told me everything and she got very angry and told me I needed to trust her or our marriage wouldn't work. More lies revealed after that conversation. I still intend on having a polygraph done, but also know from my evidence that she is still not telling the whole story anyhow.

3. See above. 2 DNA tests from seperate labs have come back Inconclusive.

4. I have access to her phone and one email account. Not to her work account anymore other than filtered information through her boss. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if she had another email account through Yahoo or such taht I don't know about, but it would have to be accessed at work (all info is tracked by employer) or through her phone. We have no internet at our home.

5. I need to directly ask for this.

Bottom feeder is putting it mildly... Oh the stories I can tell about the OM. I went to school with him; not good friends, but it is a small town. He's a disaster. OM goes through relationships like toilet paper and has no problem cheating. Been like that since high school. He was even having A's with at least a couple other women the same time my W was involved with him. I have been in and spoke directly to the owner of the company. He says he oesn't condone it, but obviously is. He is just as bad as the OM. No one has been fired and affairs run rampant at the place. His actual statement to me was "well these things happen and its hard to terminate and replace good employees".

BHF,

I think you need a polygraph for your W, the problem here is just how twisted your wives stories are and the quantity of lies. Dishonesty has become a lifestyle for your W and that has to end.

I thought with a male child you could compare Y chromosomes and they should be an exact match between father and son, what did the testing lab do?

God Bless
Gamma

I have several methods of "watching" in place. At this time, I would rather not state what all of them are. I told W I would like for her to look at this site, but hasn't that I know of. I would rather not totally give away how I am getting my info at this point. I do understand that by doing that, I am not being totally open and honest, but why, at this point, would I tell her how I have come to find and know what I do??

I am not sure if she could pass a polygraph on that.

I called both labs and they said they could more than likely get a definitive result if a sample was included from W as well. I still don't understand what the problem is.

Is this the same boss she had the affair with?

I suspect she is lying about many, many other things and may be having an affair with this boss.


What does "acccess to her phone" mean? Do you have hidden spyware on it such as flexispy or eblaster? Because if not, having access to a phone is meaningless because anything can be deleted. She could also have a secret second cell phone.

You should NEVER tell her your spy resources. NEVER.

W had told the OM that she thought that I was having or had an A with one of my clients at the time. Absolutely not the case. Something that obviously everyone is capable of but I am VERY strong in my boundaries and morals. I feel she was using it as justification for what she was doing. We had several discussions on the issue before my W's A. I even terminated the client for other problems and knew that my wife did not care for her at all. Honesty and fidelity was something that W and I talked about when we were first dating and again with our pastor in pre-marital counseling. I was very clear that was one of my top expectations and promises to her as well.

I did make the mistake of telling W that I could hear, see, track anything that was done on her phone. Anymore, nothing really suprises me about W. Though, if she has a second phone, she does a very good job at keeping it hidden. I had all data (deleted texts, etc) that could be retrieved pulled off of her previous phones back to 2005.

The biggest part is that I now know that I have been duped for at least 7 of the 11 years we've been together. I thought I knew my W and turns out I was very much decieved...

I would check this story out. Do you have this guys contact info? Do you know the facts of the story from HR? With your wife's loose boundaries and history of dishonesty, I find it hard to believe she would resist an affair with anyone.

What can you do to flesh this story out?

Have you read in our operation investigate forum? I would step up your snooping if I were you.

The OM was not her boss, but a manager in the company. The info is filtered through the owner of the company. As I said, nothing would surprise me. When I told my parents I needed to cut my trip short and get home (and generally what I thought might be going on), their first words were "where is ___ (owner of the company)?" Their first suspicion was that he was the OM.

This is still in the process of being checked out. I have the guys contact info, his wife's contact info, etc. HR has taken on a " we are not going to get further involved in this mess" stance. The guy has had numerous affairs including one with another married woman who worked there. His wife is aware of at least one, but chooses not to act because her own mother went through more than one divorce and she doesn't want to be "like her mom". His wife actually asked my W to get her the guys phone records from work at one point. My W actually went to lunch with her and discussed. All while my W had/was having and affair and knew that this lady's husband was possibly already pursuing her! If only this lady knew the skewed advice she was getting... In February when the situation with this guy was revealed (or what W wanted to reveal of it), I told W that she needed to tell his wife. W said NO. She will hate the messenger, not her H.

I've seen the Operation Investigate forum. I am doing quite alot. I hired a firm to do most of the work. There are certain things that they have not been able to re-gain access to that was lost, but are working on it.

I sat down in January of 2011 and wrote my W a long detailed letter explaining how my feelings and why I felt the way I did after she had been texting another man (seperate from the other two already mentioned) that she worked with. I asked her to respond. NOTHING for several months. I found a letter that she started writing to me that said, I lied; yes the OM and I did spend time together outside of work, but it was NEVER physical. Just talking and probably was an emotional affair. I let my knowledge of the letter go unspoken for a few more months. Finally in conversation, I brought it up. She still said the letter and details were accurate; NEVER physical. She was still lying after all the times and letters where I laid myself totally and completely out there in the open for her.

Anything my W has told me is stuff that I had to drag out of her. I tell her that I know "X" and she builds the story as "YZ". NOTHING has been offered that I didn't already pretty much know about or the answer to at the point in January where I called her out and asked her if she thought she could pass a poly. W has told me that she feels like she's being interrogated and has no privacy. Feels like she can't do anything on her own or have any friends. Feels like there is a double standard between us. She has told me that I don't need to know anymore; we need to put it behind us and move forward. I am so ready to move forward when all of my questions have answers that can be backed up.

She actually set down at my request after the initial confession of the physical relationship in January '12 and wrote out what was supposed to be the ENTIRE and COMPLETE story. Once again, major points left out. Uses the excuse that she wanted to forget all of it and can't remember major points like whether the act was with protection, but can remember exactly what she was wearing and other things she did. I actually asked her one night if we could sit down and go over what she had written. I went outside with the dog and watched through the window as she grabbed what she had written and hid it. I came back in and asked her if she still had it; said she burned it. I said "I just watched you hide it"!!

But have you contacted his wife yourself? I suspect your wife was having an affair with this guy and pretending to be friends with the wife. This is one area I would cover Ina polygraph. Can you contact this woman and give her the information you have?

Additionally, I would schedule a polygraph and then 2 days beforehand hand her a list of all your questions and give her one last chance to answer them before the polygraph. Then if she flunks the test, make plans to separate. If she won't come clean and make radical changes in her life then this marriage is hopeless.

I would stay on this until it is resolved.

I have not contacted this man's wife. I'm more than willing, but the question that I have is what if he is now committed in their marriage and things are going good. Maybe they have addressed their problems. Would it still be appropriate to contact her? Someone sent this man a text a few months ago saying something about "stay away from my wife or I will tell yours". He ran straight to my W and asked her if it was me. It was not me. This is another sticky point. My W told me this man asked her if I sent the text. Initially, W told me she just said she didn't know. My words to her, "is that exactly how the conversation went"? Her: "Yes". The next day, I did text the guy and said that she told me about the text and that i was not the one who sent it. His reply indicated that he knew alot more than I thought he did. I confronted my W who once again got caught in her lies. Instead of my W telling him she didn't know, she proceeded to tell him that she had told me about her affair with the co-worker and that she told about this guy trying to pursue her and how we were trying to work on things, etc. I was NOT A HAPPY CAMPER! Why did the convo need to go any further than "I don't know if my husband texted you"??

My W used to take our son to work with her before she took him to Pre-school. He was constantly talking about being in this guys office while he was there. The guy even gave him all kinds of fishing equip, lures, etc.

As an aside. I have a team of attorneys who are preparing to put major pressure on the employer. Letters should be going out this week (if they have not already) to the employer, a few past employees, and some betrayed spouses of employees. In a nutshell, the pressure being applied is asking why the company chose to terminate some employess in the past for intra-company relationships (but used a different reason for termination), but chose to allow at least 4 people in this situation to continue employment. My wife is aware of this as well as the fact that they are working on an alienation of affection suit. That avenue may not be used but will be at the ready should she not choose to see the light. Her first reaction about both suits was simply: "Do I need to let (owner of the company) know"?

You can't keep living like this BHF. Yes, you want to save your marriage, but your wife is emotionally abusing you.

1. You MUST find out if the child is yours. Take another test.

2. That polygraph needs to be taken as Melodylane suggests.

3. Plan on WW failing or refusing polygraph, and start preparing to separate.

4. Believe nothing that comes out of WW's mouth.

5. Keep spying. And save all information both digitally and in hard copies.

6. Do not bring WW onto this forum/thread. This forum is for you.

7. Do not tell WW about any of your spying or your tactics. Do not show her your cards about what you will do next. Don't threaten, just do.

8. Get your financials in order so that if you do file for D, WW won't be able to drain your accounts.

9. Start thinking of fighting for custody. Don't do what I did and let WW have custody. You will regret it.

10. Hang in there. Stay calm. Don't let emotions get a hold of you.

TE,

Thank you for your response. I understand and know that I cannot continue to live like this. It's eating me alive.

1. Will do

2. I see no reason at the present since I know for a fact she is still lying.

3. ....

4. I figured that out on my own and it kills me inside.

5. I have one of the best resources for it and will continue.

6. Why would I not want her to see the MB website? I want her to see others stories and the wealth of info on here that could possilbly help both of us. I have already told her about the site, but it was before my first post and i don't think she has been on here.

7. I've learned this a bit the hard way.

8. Already done.

9. Already done. As I said, I have retained a D attorney who I give regular updates and documentation/evidence to.

10. May be the hardest part. I LOVE my wife, but I am sooo devestated at the fact that she could have an affair, let alone lie blatantly to my face for 7 years or more and continues to do so right up to the present. I truly feel like I was conned and have no idea who she is!

BHF,

6. Why would I not want her to see the MB website? I want her to see others stories and the wealth of info on here that could possilbly help both of us. I have already told her about the site, but it was before my first post and i don't think she has been on here.

Because given your WWs history she will just us the information here to block your investigation and outflank you psychologically. WW sounds like she is not just a cheater but a serial cheater, and a chronic liar on top of that.

For right now MB has to be YOUR RESOURCE, you have been abused enough and need a refuge, 7 years of going insane is quite enough.

You spoke about how much you love your wife, well liars are some of the most charming people you will ever meet at first, once you are addicted to the liar they begin to abuse you.

God Bless
Gamma

Absolutely! If he is "committed" in his marriage his wife would already know and he would have left this job because your wife is there. So, unless she knows it all, they have not addressed JACK.

When you are finished, you might even contact him directly and ask for his version of events because I suspect you have been lied to about the relationship.

You will lose this place as resource if she comes here. She is very wayward and sneaky so we can't help you take steps to protect yourself if she is reading here. She can come her if she ever becomes serious about recovery, though.

BHF. I would bet this poor woman has no idea since the message was sent to the OM. I doubt some text would be enough to send him home spilling his guts.


The right thing would be to inform this guy's BW about what her husband is up to. This is info she needs in order to move forward in her own life...just like you. But be prepared for his BW to not believe you because this rat most likely went home and told his BW that some crazy person thinks he is having an affair with his wife. Honey, can you believe that? Thank goodness you are not the crazy jealous type.

This is why MB recommends informing the "BS" personally or with an email containing a name and phone number to contact.

This woman may even have info about your own situation.

Did you tell the second lab that the first test was inconclusive?

Did you ask if different samples other the cheek swabs would be better?

Sometimes Grandparents and siblins then need to be tested. Re doing the same test over is pointless unless all issues are covered.

You cannot educate a wayward.

May be the hardest part. I LOVE my wife...

Well, let's look at this. Well I don't know what her characteristics were when you were courting, and first married. She may have had all the "lovable" charms that a smitten suitor could have wanted.

As for today's little bundle of goodies? What I see from waaay out here is a woman who has shown very little commitment to the concept of fidelity in marriage, whose actions attach a HIGH degree of doubt to the paternity of her child (Just between us, I think "inconclusive" is lawsuit protection for "You ain't the daddy, sucker!"), and after being shown to be a liar and cheat, plays the old "You have to trust me(?) or we have no future together!" card when ye olde polygraph is mentioned. Is that about right?

If so, then I would say that anyone who professes to "love" that amalgam of poisons and slime is a fool. You don't sound like a fool, so stop confusing loving who she was with loving who she is!

I just finished reading the Sue Betty Crocker post (now I don't remember where I found it!)... I realize that is exactly what I'm doing and is probably why my marriage has been the way it has for the past 7 years...

The guy that I spoke of above (other co-worker who was pursing my W and she was supposedly deflecting his advances) was fired from the company last week.

Here is the exposure correspondence that I intend to send to the co-workers wife:

Dear XXX,

Earlier this year (my W) informed me in that she had been in an affair with a co-worker at (Employer) in 2005. In our discussion, she also revealed that (her husband) had been actively pursing her for over a year around 2010. (Her husband) was telling (my wife) that he could treat her so much better and make her so much happier than I could. He was also giving my 4 yr old son a bunch of fishing equipment. According to (my Wife) (HR people) noticed some of the inappropriate emails. After they (HR) went back through the email history (all emails are logged), (her husband) was called in and "written up". (My wife) was also called in and asked why she never reported any of the verbal or written communications to HR. (My wife) maintains that she deflected all advances and encouraged (her husband) to direct that energy toward his own marriage. (her husband) had also burned a "mix cd" of love songs that he gave (my wife). (my wife) maintains that she took the cd to another co-worker to see what was on it, then threw it in the trash.

I met with (owner) in February and discussed the inappropriate behavior among employees in his company. (Owner) confirmed that (her husband) had certainly been sending "the emails" and was called in and asked to stop.

(Her husband) confronted (my wife) back in February or March about a text he recieved from someone which said something about leave my wife alone or I will tell your wife all I know. He assumed that I must have sent the text. I did not. (My wife) was not honest with me about that conversation with (her husband). (My wife) first told me that she only said she didn't know if I sent it. I found out the next day that they had a full discussion as to why (my wife) told me about her affair and why she told me about (her husband)'s advances.

Maybe (her husband) had already made you aware of this; maybe not. My reason for making you aware of this situation is to make sure we both have accurate descriptions of the events and to make sure it is stopped in its tracks as (my wife) says it was. If there is anything here that (her husband) disputes, please contact me as I would like to get it all cleared up. I feel it is in the best interest of both our marriages.

(BHF)

I still need to work on exposure correspondence to send to OM's current fiancee and baby momma.

At this point being its almost 5 years since they divorced (OM and his wife at the time), I don't feel that I should send and exposure correspndence to his ex-wife. She is re-married and has a child. She and the OM were engaged when the EA and first PA encounters were going on and were married while the contact continued. I tired to tell her that something wasnt' quite right back in 2005 and again later, but she wrote me off as a crazy person for the most part.

I also need to talk to W's parents. I think I owe them the courtesy of a face to face. W confessed 1 day, 1 time with OM to her mother the day after she came clean to me, but has not told her mother since that she is still lying. I don't know, but would highly suspect that her mother has not told her father any of it.

Any thoughts??

Yeah, don't stop with her parents. Inform her siblings, cousins, friends, EVERYBODY, of her actions. (Make a special goal of telling anyone to whose child WW is Godparent!) You never know which character might be the one to fire the magic bullet that terminates her deceitful fantasy.

And btw - You still need finality to the paternity question.

No other comments on the Exposure letter?

I was confused by the way it was written (her husband, etc.). It's hard for me to follow so I decided not to comment.

Same here (tho I inserted fake names lol). Maybe be a little more...succint? I also don't know if the third paragraph is necessary. The one about the phone call or text. I think the less details the better as they will be lost in the shock of it anyway, KWIM? Maybe suggest she call you and then you can talk about the details.

I'm back. I admit that I have not followed the Marriage Builder advice like I should have. My marriage is still poor. WW has agreed to work through the Marriage Builders program with me. I expect that she will come to the forum, but I do not intend to give her my username yet. I want her to look around and start her own thread.

With the above said, let me tell you how we got to this "current" point...

Mutual friend of ours that is a female sent me a couple e-cards via text (were sent to mass recipients, not just me). They were meant to be humorous; one said something about a gal begging forgiveness for her past 5 or 6 affairs. She then texted back a few minutes later and asked that I delete it so it didn't offend my WW when she saw it. I told her I would delete it and did. Later in the I showed one to my WW and told her that the friend had asked me to delete the other one. It was alot later in the evening when i finally found a copy of the e-card I had deleted and showed it to my WW. I didn't feel right "hiding" it from her. Honesty is always the best policy, but obviously it isn't always the easiest...

WW texted the friend and told her that the two texts she sent were funny. I was in trouble with the friend bc I showed the one to WW. I explained to the friend (all this was via text) that I didn't feel comfortable hiding it from my WW. All was fine again until my WW demanded to see our cell bill online. It is not something that is secret; WW has always had access to it as well as my phone. Came home from a meeting a couple nights ago and WW didn't say much. She ended up not saying anything and went and slept in a spare bedroom in the basement. I went to bed a while later. When I walked into the bathroom, there sat both our wedding rings along with a note and a copy of our cell bill with all my ingoing and outgoing texts to our friend. Averaged about 300 per month that I had sent. WW was flipping out.

So you are now having an emotional affair with a mutual friend?

How long has this been going on?

I do not agree that I am/was having an emotional affair with the friend. I text people constantly; client's, friends, family, WW. My phone is available for WW to see any of the texts on the phone. I agree that it doesn't look good. There were two "conversations" that had been deleted between our friend and myself. One involved WW's OM at a party the friend was at. I told the friend that I wouldn't stand there with either her or her spouse's affair partner (there have been none on their part that I know of) if I was in the same situation. Convo was deleted so WW didn't go off about me being crappy about the OM. Second deleted convo was about a co-worker of WW that was causing problems.

Friend and her husband are both firends of ours. I have been "out" with friend and her husband without my WW on several occasions; all at WW's own choice. I have never put myself into a situation where I am out alone with friend one of our spouses is always out too; I want no confusion to anyone that there could even be a possibility of "something" going on. Later in the evening after the "funny" texts were sent, I went into town to a bar & grill to meet the friend and her spouse and some other friends. They had invited us out earlier in the day since our son was staying with my in-laws. Wife wanted to go pick our son up, so we did. When we returned home it was about 10:30 pm. I went into town to meet the group; WW stayed at home with our son. When I arrived a group of WW's co-workers were there as well as her boss. I spent the majority of the evening interacting with WW's co-workers and went home about 2 am.

So did you ever expose your WW's affair?

Do you think it's appropriate for you to be texting other women? Whether she is a mutual friend of yours and your WW?

WW and I had a long argument/discussion about this for almost 4 hours yesterday. She told me she didn't like the number of texts that were going in and out from the friend. I understand her perception, but also know that there is nothing going on.

Through the discussion WW's affair was brought up and the complete lack of resolution to it. As I said before, she feels we need to just move forward and that she doesn't need to answer anymore questions about it. there are many parts of her timeline that do not fit and its very obvious.

WW agreed to look at Marriage Builders. Said she had the site bookmarked but just hadn't had time to look into it. I am in hope that we can complete the entire program and have a great marriage, but I've learned to be pessemistic about the whole situation.

BH,

I exposed the affair but not to "everyone" and not all at once. We have had false recoveries several times. I failed on the exposure front.

I've been through this site and the books...I've read the stories and the advice about not texting or having friends of the opposite sex. I guess I stepped right in the middle of it. My answer to your question would be yes, I felt it was appropriate for me to be texting a friend who was a female. I text her husband as well, but he is not a "texter" so there are not very many messages to him. I completely understand the perception. I thought it was a non-issue since she is a mutual friend and because the majority of the texts were available for my WW to see. As I said, there were 2 convo's deleted. i know it looks bad.

BHF, I believe that you honestly believe there is nothing going on with with this friend of yours and your wife's.

But, your wife has every reason to be upset about it because at the very least, you are on a slippery slope. Let me point out all the red flags:

!) Shear number of texts...300 per month! That's 10 per day, probably greater than the number I text my Fiancee' and we are deeply in love!

2) The nature of text messaging...By its very nature, texting is an intimate communication between only two people that is private from other eyes or ears. Friendly conversation in a group setting with this woman or with your spouses present is fine, but that is not how it is with texting.

3) Sharing intimate details of you marriage...I'm sure you have been doing this privately with this woman, and it is a big no-no according to Dr. Harley.

Your wife has every right to be concerned, no one would feel safe in a marriage where their spouse texts constantly day and night to another woman.

I agree with schtoop.

My WH's affair started exactly like this. My WH and her BH were mutual friends and the BH wasn't a big texter either. Then it turned into hell.

So what are you going to do to secure these boundaries of yours up?

What EPs has your WW put in place?

Your wife is feeling threatened, and for good reason. Her gut instinct is saying that there is a threat to her marriage and there is.

At the end of the day, whether you know there is nothing going on (yet, if you consider constant texting with an OS friend 'nothing') is irrelevant, if your wife is uncomfortable with it that is the only thing that is relevant.

Protect your marriage and your wifes love bank for you and get rid of this OS friend.

I understand that she has every reason to be upset; I don't think she had a reason to be as upset as she was. I do not discuss intimate details of our marriage with our friend; never have nor does she or her husband share details of their marriage. I'm not trying to defend myself by any means.

I agreed that the texting would stop.

What love busters are you cleaning up?
What EPs are you and your WW going to implement?

We need to get into the LB's and the EP's. I want us to both sit down and fill out the questionaires. Obviously the main love buster that I am cleaning up is no more texts to our friend.

Actually OS relationships are boundaries.

Do you have the book Love Busters? Read up on DJs. For you to say that your wife shouldn't be as upset as she was, when she found out how many texts you were sending to this mutual friend is a DJ.

Can you afford the MB coaching center or the online program? They will give you a coach to guide you.

My intention is that we do the online program. I understand that OS relationships are boundaries. I did not think it was a problem with a mutual friend. That was my mistake. Do not have the book LoveBusters, but will get it. I have the book Surviving an Affair and one other. WW read the other one and is almost finished with it. She's been reading it off and on for about 6 or 7 months.

BHF,

The texts are entirely inappropriate, even if you are not getting attached to this OW, the OW may be getting attached to you. You are especially vulnerable because you have never resolved your WWs two? affairs.

she feels we need to just move forward and that she doesn't need to answer anymore questions about it. there are many parts of her timeline that do not fit and its very obvious.

Did you schedule a polygraph and did you speak with the OMs to see if the stories line up? You don't want to be years out from this with doubts.

God Bless
Gamma

So make a plan. When can you sign up?

Also if you email the show they will send you a complimentary book.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I am very clear on the texting situation.

We actually are already years out with doubts. I have not talked to the OM's. The first one I would probably go to jail if I was that close to him; the second one is the OM that WW says she deflected. They are both arrogant pieces of crap and have been in enough affairs that they know better than to say anything to me at all. They don't want to slip up. I did respond to the first OM when he sent a FaceBook request to our joint account. He offered things that didn't line up with WW's story. When confronted, WW generally confessed that they were true.

I have not scheduled a polygraph, though I have spoke with the polygrapher. I see no point in scheduling one for WW since I have proof that she is still lying. She has told me that I don't need to know anymore. Has told me as well that it doesn't make any difference whether she had sex with OM('s) once or on several occassions.

That's why you should talk to these OM's BWs and tell them.

I contacted OM1's BW early on (was his fiance in the beginning of all this). She refused to believe any of it and bought OM's story. She even told me "why would they be doing that when your wife's on fertility meds and trying to get pregnant". I didn't tell her any of that so it had to have came from OM. OM1 married and then divorced the woman about 5 years ago. She is now married to someone else and lives far away.

Suspected OM2's wife knows her husband cheats. She refuses to do anything about it because her mother was married several times and doesnt want to be like her mother. I told WW that she and I needed to go talk to suspected OM2's W together. WW is not in favor of it. Says even though she did not get involved with him, OM2's wife will "shoot the messenger".

You can't move forward unless she provides you honest answers to your questions. Your getting this is as important as your recognizing that you had bad boundaries when you texted OW, your wife had as much reason to be upset about that as you do with her affairs and not providing you the info you requested. If you two can schedule a time with Dr. Harley, it could help both of you understand the path forward. Both of you need to come up with the time to read all of the books and materials, it'd help you avoid the pitfall of wasting precious time making mistakes and spinning wheels.

Can someone pin my story as an example to all those who do not follow the Marriage Builders program to the letter? (Not really).

Another blowout last week. I lost it. Our son who is almost 7 years old was right there in the middle of it. It was the first time we have ever right out argued about the infidelities in front of him. I was furious and in the middle of it told him what his mom had done and not in the most polite way. I feel awful about it. I'm not a crier but was reduced to tears most of the morning the next day. It was a MAJOR ANGRY OUTBURST. I said several things to WW that were uncalled for. I completely understand that Harley considers those marriage killers, but I'm as close to the end of my rope as I've ever been.

I've told WW so many times from the very beginning what I needed to move forward and fix our marriage; verbally and in letters from my heart. She said back in November that she would work the Marriage Builders online course with me, but never put forth any effort to even look at the website. She did say she had read some of it over the past few days after the last blowout. She still hasn't finished SAA which she started almost a year ago. She's still working at the same job; though after a conversation on Saturday she agreed to walk in and quit on Monday. It's Tuesday and she's still there.

I'm just SO FRUSTRATED!! I feel like I have been the only one trying to drive the figurative recovery bus and am spinning my wheels. I'm physically, mentally, and emotionally worn out from trying. I'm sure she would tell you the samething, but I've yet to see any evidence that she's trying other than the fact that she still lives with me.

WW will at one point act appalled when I tell her she needs to be honest and answer my questions with honest answers. Then the next minute tells me that she thinks we need a mediator before we talk about it anymore. We had one about a year ago; the MC that was terrible. WW sat right in his office and lied to the both of us. My feeling; what good is a different mediator going to do?? I've had the angry outbursts, but also have sat there completely calm when she told me some of the worst of it. I come uncorked cause we aren't getting anywhere and she just cannot tell the truth.

Over the years WW has talked more to 4 or 5 men at work about whats going on in more detail than she has to me! One of the men WW claims she can't stand, but she was discussing the affair and the other married co-worker that was pursuing her with him years before I knew anything about any of it happening.

Sorry; this post turned into more of a vent than anything...

Why don't you email Dr Harley for advice?
He will offer you his professional opinion at no charge.

Rather than use your sad story as a warning to others about following the program, why don't you start following the program?

You are not destined to a life of unhappiness and betrayal because you didn't follow it the first time. I bet MOST of the posters on here had to learn their lesson the hard way, in some form or other.

Go back and reread your thread. Start taking the advice and implementing the MB way TODAY, STEP BY STEP. Will it lead to a seperation? Possibly, from what I have read it sounds like your WW has never had any intention of investing in recovery. You have set the bar very low and have gotten what you asked for. If you require more for yourself there is a good chance that she will not be willing to give that to you. But read the part where you talk about having an AO in front of your son. IS THIS THE BETTER OPTION? No, you are not proud of the man you have become. You are not happy in this marriage, nor are you working a recovery plan that will bring you happiness.

The only way to change this situation, is to change the way you are doing things.

Have you told your DS7 the truth about his mom's affair?

Brainhurts,

Yes I did, but it was during the angry outburst. I told him "mom had a boyfriend". He also heard me telling her that it was her decision to drop her pants. I'm not proud of the way it happened at all. He was very upset because we were both arguing and upset. I'm not sure how much he comprehended, but I'm sure it was more than I think. He has not said a word to me about what happened last week other than he asked what happened to our garage door (WW punched it and made a hole through the insulation and a dent that you can see on the outside). At that point I just told him mom hit it.

Brainhurts,

I just went back and re-read your post. Actually, no. He has not been told the truth, other than what he heard when we were arguing and what I said to him then. WW has repeated over and over that he doesn't need to know anything about it. She was furious that I said anything to him about it whilst we were in the heat of the argument. I agree that it wasn't the best way to talk to him about it, but 100% agree that he should know. If you've read my thread in its entirety, you will remember that my wife allowed DS to frequent a married co-workers office every morning before she took him to school. All this was after the married co-worker had sent her notes and "mix cd's" professing his desire for her. My wife hid this co-workers actions from me for over 4 years, but discussed it with other male co-workers.

Can you tell me how to find the link to email Dr Harley?

Need advice on one other thing. WW told me this morning that she will work on her letter of resignation from place of employment tonight. Any thoughts on what should be included being this is the place where the A or A's started and condoned them or should it only state the fact that she is resigning?

MBradio@marriagebuilders.com is the email addy. I think it should state all the facts concerning her affair. By not doing so you are shielding her from the consequences of her affair. Thats not very Plan A like.

While I agree that it should state all facts regarding her affair, I don't even have all those yet. I can't imagine she will set down and right the resignation letter with those facts in it if she won't even tell them to me... She is supposed to be turning the letter in tomorrow when she meets with her supervisor. She is supposed to request a good reference if needed and a copy of her HR file.

Thank you for the address for Dr. Harley. I sent him an email and will wait to see what happens.

HER letter of RESIGNATION should only give the reason as "Family issues.." etc.

There may be legal repercussions if she cites the A (or A's) as her reason.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here





_________________________

I am not a vet but as a BS and reading about Plan A by not mentioning the affairs in the resignations because of legal repercussions isn't that shielding his WW from the consequences of her affair(s)? She didn't think of that when she was in the midst of her affair(s). I fail to see the MB in that. Please clarify. Did you expose to your children? Updates?

Not much to update; did a major remodel in our home and have been doing the painting to get it finished up. WW did submit her resignation letter to employer last week. It did not mention anything about the affair(s), but did say that she could not work there any linger and make her family the number one focus. Employer is aware of the affairs. They had slews of evidence in the business emails; they log every email in and out. Employer has asked her to stay on for about 3 more weeks until a replacement can be found/trained. Employer also asked her to consider working at one of their other business's in town. I told WW that it was not a good idea.

We have one child; I "exposed" to him during the AO I spoke of earlier. I have not taken the time to sit down with him and talk about it in a normal conversation.

We have two major problems. First, WW cannot and refuses to be completely honest about what was going on and refuses to discuss it further. Second, we are not getting anywhere close to the alone time together that we need. Maybe only about 7 hours per week. WW and I have discussed this and she says it impossible when we have DS. I've asked her to read Dr. Harley's viewpoints on getting the time in for couples with children and she hasn't looked at them. We both love DS, but my WW, IMO, uses him as a crutch.

I was also waiting to hear back after I emailed Dr. Harley back on the 27th. I have yet to hear anything back from that email.

Email again and if you don't get a response hit Notify here and ask the MODS to let the Harleys know.

Thank you all for your advice to contact the radio show. I spoke with Joyce (very nice and genuine person) today and am schedule to be on the show tomorrow!

Fantastic. Let us know how it goes.

Ill be listening! Hope it helps you!

Did the radio program today. I am a little more encouraged. Dr. Harley requested that I ask WW to complete the 3 main questionaires and have her send them in to him. He offered to speak to her personally if she was willing. I'll see if I can encourage WW to complete them this weekend.

It will be interesting to see how WW reacts. She already thinks I'm a "quack" because I post for advice on the forum. Not sure how she will respond when I tell her I was on the radio program...

Obviously I don't know how many people on this forum listened today, but I wanted to comment on something Dr. Harley spoke about. He said it is his impression that my WW wants to be independent and that may be part of our issues. WW is independent in some areas, but in others she is extremely dependent on me. I would even say that I am pretty independent, but it hasn't carried me into an A. We have some work to do if I can just get her to jump on board with MB.

Calling names is immature and a DJ. I don't think she is ready for recovery. That's just an opinion. Remember even though she agreed to try recovery she is still very very foggy! Trust but verify.

Who called who names? Where?

WW never actually called me a quack... I have mentioned the forum in the past couple weeks and she wanted to know if all the people on here offering advice were certified. She has, many times, told me I was crazy because I thought she was having an affair.

I'll also admit that throughout our troubles, I have resorted to name calling. Not that it's excusable, but I never used a name that didn't have a definition that fit. I am trying to work on controlling this part of me.

I don't think you understand what he means by independent behavior. Independent behavior means she has a belief she is entitled to do what she pleases whether or not it harms you. Your wife has a belief that if having an affair makes her happy, she is entitled to have it. Would you agree?


And are you in the habit of making unilateral decisions that HARM HER and just saying "screw you" when she objects?

We certifiably give MARRIAGE BUILDERS ADVICE here. We don't give "advice" based on our personal opinions. According to the TOS, posters must give MB advice to posters in need.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

ML,

Thanks. I didn't grasp his definition of independent behavior. No, I am not in the habit of making decisions of that that harm WW.

I didn't think you were. Whereas, I am the QUEEN of Independent behavior, so I get it!

You did great on the radio today! I hope your wife will contact Dr Harley.

WW agreed today to accept Dr. Harley's invitation. She said she would work on the 3 questionnaires he requested this evening. I wouldn't say she is enthusiastic about doing this, but I'm taking her agreement to do it as a small step!

Does anyone know where to find the Sue Betty Crocker post/thread?? I read it quite some time ago and have been looking for it again with no success.

Here you go.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159293&Number=2332844#Post2332844

WW submitted her letter of resignation to her employer (where affair(s) began) the end of February. She asked for a copy of her personnel file in the resignation letter. Legally in our state the employee does not have to be provided access to their personnel file. The resignation was supposed to be effective upon presentation of the letter. Employer asked that she stay on for 3-4 more weeks to train staff. I agreed to two weeks so she could get a decent reference from them IF they agreed to give her a copy of the personnel file that she asked for. Here we are March 25th; still working at the same place and no personnel file... I'm getting run right over the top of.

A little over a week ago, I asked WW if she had followed up on her request for the personnel file and reminded her of our agreement. She went off and told me she was meeting with her boss the next day and would request it. That meeting was supposedly postponed or another employee was present.

We went out an evening or two later with a couple who are our friends. The four of us went into a local restaurant/bar together. OM1's brother was in the bar without his wife but sticking real close to another woman. The situation really got to me. A male acquaintance of mine sat down next to my wife in a booth while I was outside. When I came back in I told WW that would have been a good opportunity to show me that she had boundaries in place and that she should have told him it wasn't appropriate for him to be sitting there with her alone. I got up again and when I came back, WW was gone.

I asked our friends (who came with us) where she went and they did not know. I tried to call and text her, but got no answer either way. I started coming undone. Our firends found another ride home and I continued looking for WW. Didn't find her so I went home. She wasn't there either. About an hour or so later our friend texted me that WW had called her and she went and picked her up. WW said she left the bar and was walking home. Our home is about 9 miles from bar.

When WW arrived home with our friend, I told her she would not pull something like that and expect to come back home. I wanted the rest of the night to "calm down". I locked the house and she ended up going to stay at our friends house. I was extremely upset and said several things that I shouldn't have.

We discussed what happened over the next couple days. She said she walked home bc she was mad and didn't want to cause a scene in front of everyone. I do believe that she was walking home and didn't leave with someone. The last time something of the same sort happened (when I couldn't reach her and she disappeared) was when she was in an affair.

If you read earlier in my thread, you will see that I was on the radio show with Dr. Harley and Joyce a couple weeks ago. Dr. Harley offered his personal invitation to my wife to have her complete the 3 main questionairres and send them to him; he would review and speak to her personally. My wife faxed the completed questionairres to the Harley's on the 15th, but we have not heard from them at all.

I asked WW to wait on applying for another job (per my discussion with Dr. Harley) until after she has a chance to visit with Dr. Harley. That did not mean, and I made it clear, that she was to continue at the current place of employment. I also told WW that once she is ready to get on board with MB and do counseling with one of the Harleys, I would like to have her do the polygraph (she had agreed to one before, but then refused). She told me "I think a polygraph is ridiculous, but if I have to do one, so do you!" I have no problem with doing a polygraph. Her response to me about it set off a major red flag... Am I still just being paranoid??

Is this your call?

Radio Clip of BrokenHeartFool's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3

Yes. That was my call.