I just found this site after months of looking for self-help, guidance, and trying to sort thru the devastation. I feel for everyone here and wish everyone the best:)

I returned home from a business trip and my husband confessed that his 22 year old employee was in need of help. He claimed another employee called him at 4 a.m. stating that the OW was thrown out of her place by her boyfriend. She went out drinking and her phone died so the OW's friend wanted my husband to go look for her. (BS!! Who calls their boss at 4am!). Next, the OW had enough charge in her phone to call my husband and he graciously offered her to come sleep at our house so she could get ready for work in the morning. He claimed she was in need of help and that they would do the same for him. (BS!!! With 500+ friends on Facebook, not one she could call!) He claims nothing happened. He stated he would not risk what we had and that he would leave me before cheating on me. So I ask.. What shower did she use? Did you offer her a toothbrush? No Did she use the hairdryer? No-she didnt wash her hair. Hmmmm...what women takes a shower but doesn't wash their hair or wet it to get it looking normal? So if she didn't wash her hair, didn't ask for a toothbrush, and just washed up then she could of done that AT WORK or gone home to her grandmothers house. Now I am suspicious, very suspicious. He is telling me because there are witnesses...my neighbors!

I take a look at the cell phone and find a photo of her in her underwear. I confront him and he states its from facebook. BS! It was sent and even if it was from FB, WHY did you save it!!

Now I go into stealth mode. I find a deleted text about kissing and I confront him. He states it was just a peck, swears up and down. I know he's lying so I dig deeper and keep up my snooping.

I find another text a week later. Now its more sexual and explicit. I confront him again and now he admits to it. Finally he stops lying and tells me everything. I have to admit, I only absorbed a fraction of what he told me as it was so overwhelming. My world came tumbling down around me.

From what I can peice together, as he doesn't like "rehashing" it over and over again is that she broke up with her BF prior to my business trip. There was flirting at the time after she discussed her break up with him and confided in him. Apparently he had promised her a drink and they went out after work to discuss ther relationship. He stated they parted ways and then she called, not sure if I beleive that. From the phone records, she was at my house around 2:30 a.m. and he claims nothing happened, again I dont beleive it. Seriously, what a great opportunity and if you are going to risk her coming to your house, why not?? Doesn't make sense.

He offered to quit his job and go to counseling. I have asked that he no longer take his iphone into the bathroom since this is where he'd start texting her every morning. I asked that while he gave his 2 week notice, that he does not work with her. He claims they did not have intercourse, just oral sex. I find it hard to beleive from the texts that I read. Most of the sexual physical activity occurred at work followed by hours of sexting in between plus while at work. I took all joint property out of his name as she is 22 and he is 45, she'd not going to just disappear. She fell for him. I texted her, carefully choosing my words, and she was not phased. In fact, I dont even think my husband is remorseful. You'd think he'd send me flowers or something, nothing! He acts as if it didnt happen. In fact, just yesterday she texted him but he did not text back (thankfully)however he did not tell me! HE SHOULD BE TELLING ME IF SHE CONTACTS HIM!! It's called being open and transparent. I just texted her telling her to stop texting my husband, short and sweet. Hopefully she will take heed.

Counseling-
We started counseling and he claimed that he had the affair because of the lack of attention I give him. He also stated that I gained a lot of weight since we got married but still loved me. Well, the truth be told..there was no sex for 4 years. I brought it up to him on 3-4 occassions as to why and his reasons were: the dogs sleep in the bed or he has no desire. Why I didn't initiate? Well he had a problem in that area so I figured I'd wait till he was ready so I didn't kill his self esteem, put pressure on him, or make him feel inadequate. Guess my thoughtfulness backfired on me. Now, he still claims that he has no desire but he did with her! I've asked him to go to the Dr to find out, perhaps its his blood pressure meds. Nope, wont go or he'll say next week but it never happens. He stated that I should not compare myself to her and I wasn't. Its a fact that he had desire with her but not with me. He had desire for porn. Is it because I'm fat? (BTW-I lost 20lbs, now at 147:)) I wasn't THAT fat, yes I had gained some weight but why didn't he say something? Why did he always force me to eat that last peice when I didnt want it? Why did we have to do gourmet meals for his family? There's reasons behind it and I admite, I was depressed. I take responsibility for that. Uggg! I have in the past, said I wanted a divorce out of pure fustration. Never did he ever get the message, even when I was so blunt. I even asked him if he was with me only for my money as I make so much more than him. He said no. I do EVERYTHING plus work 2 jobs and I just never saw the effort on his part to work together in a marriage. He should of talked to me more, communicated with me more but he chose a different path. What hurts is that he continued to lie and after I confronted him, not once but twice, he continued on. He had to realize I would find out, I would keep digging, so why did he keep it going.

He also resents living under a microscope and I told him that he created the situation and until I can trust him, I'll continue to be on high alert. One evening he was at an event in a shopping mall where the OW works. Well, I went to make sure she didn't try to contact him. He resented that I was there stating I was spying on him. If I was spying on him, he wouldn't have known I was there! I wouldn't have gone up to him to make my presence known! He needs to understand where I am coming from and the devastation he caused me. He also is mad that I told his parents. He thinks we should of kept it between us and I thought, no way. He needs to own what he has done and face the consequences. I'm not protecting him so he can go on his happy merry way. He needs to be more intimate with me, respectful, and transparent. He needs to put an effort into the marriage as I've just about done everything I can. Some days are better but days like today where I see the text message and he didn't tell me makes me so upset. In fact, I want to email the employer and get her fired. Enough is enough!

I learned, after the initial shock, that there is nothing wrong with me. I did everything I could for our marriage and I am not going to try and compete with a 22 year old. I have a lot to offer and if he doesn't want to change then its over. I deserve to be happy and to be who I am. I deserve more that what I have. I went out and bought sexy lingerie only for it to go unnoticed. Heck, he hasn't even noticed that I lost weight!

Other factors that tipped me off-
-Using his iphone in the bathroom constantly
-Going outside to the front of the house to talk on the phone
-Pacing up and down the front walkway, standing far away from the house.
-Not answering my calls and when he did, not talking much
-Shaved pubic hairs in his tub
-New cologne in his medicine cabinet
-Not intimate at all
-Keeping his iphone glued to himself

Other things I found out-
He had been visiting porn sites. I think this was pre-affair and found one porn magazine and DVD in his desk. Threw those away. He claimed he grew up with porn (family was in video business) so it wasn't any big deal. Why? He liked looking at it, doesnt see anything wrong with it. Guess all those nights he slept in the spare bedroom wasn't always because of my snoring. Which I did have two surgeries to try and correct it but no luck:(

So I continue to take it one day at a time...

I am so sorry you are going through this, I am in plan B now and it gets easier with time.
Don't worry about the lies, they all lie. My WH was a very truthful person before, once he started "twisting the truth" he could not stop.
Just do not believe anything he says. You will know inside you, your instinct will tell you, you just want to surpress it and ignore it, but you know when he lies.
You are at the beginning of exhausting journey, where it will lead you nobody knows, just take care of yourself and prepare for unexpected.
Wish you lots of strenght and luck. Hope you have family and friends to support you( you'll certainly have support here)
I found lots of wonderful people who took me by hand step by step. Cannot imagine doing it all by myself without any guidance.

Thanks Czarne:) I'm trying to find out what Plan A is exactly and Plan B. All I know is that I'm doing my self improvement, for me and not for him. We have a counseling session today and I'm debating whether to point out ask him if he has heard from the other woman and whether he will lie.

I hate this snooping, I soooo hate it! Makes feel dirty and like crap.

I hated snooping too. It made me feel cheap...
I was always proud that I never check his phone, email etc. BIG mistake!

There is a great article on plan A/B here. Just go to the top red tabs, click on "articles" and it is there, fifth or sixth from the top,
xxx

The problem is that you are trying to do this on your own, without a plan.
MB is a PLAN to recover from affairs if you want marital recovery.
I think you should consider filing for legal separation and freezing marital assets and them offer recovery if he agrees to your conditions.

My daughters name is Helen also.
It's a beautiful name.
Helena was the mother of Constantine and she found the True Cross.

Here you go.

What are Plan A and Plan B?
Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Welcome to MB Helen67, sorry for the pain that brings you here.

In the Notable Posts Forum you will find many useful threads, particularly "Thread to help newly betrayed by Scotland".

If you want to recover your marriage I wouldn't recommend attending counselling together unless the counsellor is on board with the MB programme. Most counsellors have a high failure rate as they do not help create a romantic loving marriage. IC is fine to help you come to terms with the pain of infidelity. When your husband ends the A if he is remorseful, then counselling with the Harleys would give you a stronger chance of marital recovery.

I will try to link some threads for you ... failing that some other useful threads:

Exposure 101 by MelodyLane
The carrot & stick of Plan A by Pepperband
Notable Posts by Pepperband

Also the articles on the MB website are very useful.

Try and take care of yourself, you will find los of advice, support and encouragement on MB.

Helen. I think you have this OW confused with someone who respects and cares for you. She does not. She is having an affair with your WH and she cares nothing about you. There is no reason for her to take heed. She only cares about what "she" wants... and she wants your husband.



Exposure is your most powerful weapon here. Affairs thrive on secrecy and the light of day is the best way to kill the "fantasy" and bring reality into the picture. Who on OW side have you exposed to? I would try to find OW mother and ask her to help keep her daughter away from your husband. This will have much more impact on the OW moral compass than your texts to her.


I am sorry that you are going through this. Stick with us here.

Helen. You already know that he is capable of looking you in the eye and lying...so what would be the point of asking?


The only way you will know for sure is if you snoop. Your WH is acting like mine when he had taken the affair underground.

Has he quit his job yet?

Also this.
Thread to Help Newly Betrayed Spouses

You have to start seeing your WH as an addict. Conditions and consequences are the only thing they understand.

What are your conditions to keep YOU interested in the marriage? If he cannot commit to these, then he is not serious and you need to prepare for PLAN B. He will try to manipulate you only as long as you let him.



here is a start on your conditions:

commit to NC with OW for LIFE.
Handwritten NC letter given to you to approve and mail.
New job
complete transparency of his life
new cell phone number
no social networking except joint accounts
no opposite sex friendships
commitment to MB recovery program ( don't mention MB yet)

Hi everyone,

Yes, he has quit his job at my request. D day was 9/9/12 and he left on 10/20 after discussing it with me.

As far as my texting the 22 yr old- I'd love to be nasty and mean but its in writing. I need to protect myself. I texted her once I found out about the affair and carefully chose my words to circumvent any claims of sexual harassment. I'm not going to be victimized by any sexual harassment lawsuit. I have that covered.

I asked him about the most recent texts during counseling yesterday. He said one and I said, no it was twice! He stated he didn't say anything as he didn't want to cause problems. I told him that by NOT telling me is the problem, he has to be completely open with me. No more sweeping stuff under the carpet to avoid conflict.

I made it perfectly clear that if this EVER happens again, there is no second chance. I would chew him up and spit him out 10 times over. I told him how much he hurt me and he has started to read the books I recommended so he understands my hurt and betrayal.

I pressed him for more answers as to why he continued the affair, why he let it go so far, did he think of how it would affect us, was it worth risking everything. It seems like he cannot be friends and keep it professional or have boundaries, especially with employees. He needs to work on this weakness.

I'm not letting up as I told him that whatever caused him to betray me needs to be identified so it doesn't happen in the future. It must be addressed, no exception.

He admitted that he is glad we are talking and thinks this will bring us closer together, a stronger marriage. I even told the counselor that there is too much focus on what I nedd to do and my weight. You love someone for who they are, period. I told her that I was not sooooo overweight that it was an excuse. HE NEEDS TO CHANGE, HE DID THIS so why the focus on ME? She said I had displaced anger at her, well....I took control and dove into the issues needed to be discussed.

It was a good session and I think we've made progress but time will tell. I'm going to read plan A and B also to make sure I'm covering all the basis. He needs to make the effort too, not just me and I made that clear as well.

As far as exposure, I have my letter ready to send to her boss. However, he doesn't work there anymore so should I still send it? I can't find her mother, they are divorced. As far as changing his phone number, its his business number too. Also, if I change it or block it then I just make it go underground. This way I can see and check, I've already thought out the pros and cons of the phone number issue.

Thanks everyone for the advice:) Glad I found this site!

Hi Helen, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that brought you here. I wanted to address a few red flags I see here. The first is the above. The problem is not that he doesn't tell you, but that she is able to contact him. As long as that is the case, the affair is unlikely to end. Every time she contacts him is the equivalence of an alcoholic taking another drink. Every contact triggers his feelings and puts him back to day 1 of withdrawal

The solution is to cut off her means of contact entirely. He should exchange phones with you and/or change his phone #. She should not be able to call him.



The issue is that he has poor boundaries around women. He needs to be in an occupation where he doesn't have close proximity to women. He shouldn't have opposite sex friendships and he certainly shouldn't have personal conversations with any women.

[quotee]He admitted that he is glad we are talking and thinks this will bring us closer together, a stronger marriage. I even told the counselor that there is too much focus on what I nedd to do and my weight. You love someone for who they are, period.[/quote]

Well no you don't. That is not how romantic love is created. People fall in love when their most important emotional needs are met. They fall out of love when they are not. Many men have an emotional need of physical attraction in order to be in love. Your weight may be a key factor in the love he feels. What are his top 5 emotional needs?


But you just said that "You love someone for who they are, period." So why does have to change and you don't?


That's great! But I would move onto Surviving an Affair. You have to have the plan that is in that book in order to recover. And I will give you a word of warning about your typical counselor. They are destructive to marriages because they don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. They have an 84% failure rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. They have no plan to recover a marriage from an affair.

The path back to recovery after an affair is very narrow and most don't make it unless they follow this plan. I am going to post some links and articles in my next post, but you MUST get your hands on Dr Harley's book, Surviving an Affair. It is the bible for marriages that have been affected by affairs.


This strategy misses the point entirely. The danger is any contact from the OW. Every time she gets through it triggers him. If you don't eliminate that access, he WILL start up the affair again. I am just warning you. Him telling you about contact will not prevent that.

Start here: How to Survive Infidelity

Go here next: the Most Important Emotional Needs

Read this: Physical Attractiveness

Yes, they need to know that she is a loose cannon. She is the kind of idiot that causes sexual harassment lawsuits.

I just read that he is interested in a porn, which is a sure fire killer of your sex life. Men who look at porn usually masturbate too. Has he stopped that? *YOU* should be his exclusive source of sexual fulfillment.

Hi Melody,
Thanks for your feedback! I do need to change as well but I do beleive he needs to change more than I do. Specifically, he needs to communicate more, express his needs, think of my needs, and maintain boundaries with other women. I've tried talking to him over the years and he brushes it off, he needs to be open and honest, and communicate with me.

As far as loving someone for who they are is basically we all get older. Is he now going to be judgemental if I get a wrinkle?
Gain a few pounds as I age? Basically, is he going to be superficial? I can't control certain things whereas others I can. When he goes bald, do I stop loving him? He's gained weight, did I stop loving him? No, of course not.

I also understand the rationale behind the phone but I may be stopping THIS affair but what about possible future affairs? I mean, if he really wants to save our marriage, he should be able to do it without manipulating and setting up barriers. He has to want this as well, be straightforward with me, and make the right decisions on his own. Am I making any sense? Whats to stop him from getting a prepaid phone and keeping it in his car? I'd never know or at least it would be a very long time before I would find out. I agree that there should be no contact at all but do I really want him going the prepaid phone route?

I already started reading the book today, is it too late for Plan A? Do I still notify the employer of the workplace affair even though he is gone? Do I risk him getting mad at me for revealing it to the employer and what if the employer calls him?

Another thought that is in my head... I haven't read all the posts here but it seems like the BS is the one doing the work to save the marriage and then telling the cheating spouse what needs to be done. I wonder how many spouses who have cheated are putting forth the great effort to save their marriage as many of the BS's are? Just a random thought.

The counselor is a Dr with extensive experience and training. So far she's been right on the money even though I think sometimes she is moving forward too soon but then again, I need to speak up more. She has told him that he has problems with boundaries as well but its hard to get all the facts into a 1 hr session but we're getting there.

Again, thanks for the feedback and pointing out things I need to consider. It's truly helpful, thank you!

Yes, you BOTH need to change. But making demands on him is not going to do the trick. Sure, extraordinary precautions to avoid an affair are not negotiable, but you can't make demands. He is not going to communicate more in an environment where he is punished or demands are made. I want also point out that you "brushed off" his issues when he told you his concerns about the dogs in the bed and your weight. You can't demand a standard of him that you don't observe.

Your biggest problem is that your husband is no longer in love. That is what this program will correct. People who are in love don't have problems with "communication." And I don't think your counselor understands that or knows how to fix that.


It is not a matter of "judgement." It is a matter of being attractive enough for him to be in love with you. Do you want him to be in love with you?


It is disrespectful to label his needs as "superficial." Falling in love is an emotional reaction, not a choice. He DID fall out of love with you because you weren't meeting his needs. Do you want to change that?


He is not addicted to a "future affair," he is addicted to *THIS* OW. If you really want to save your marriage, you need to shut that phone down and establish BARRIERS. You are making the mistake of expecting him to show WILL POWER. He has already proven to you he has no will power when it comes to this OW.

Anyway, if *YOU* are serious about saving your marriage, you will insist he get rid of any means for the OW to contact him.


Tell the employer about the affair. They can keep an eye on the OW so she doesn't do this to someone else. Like I said, she is a loose cannon. It is not your job to hide their affair.


My concern is that she does not seem to understand how romantic love is created and this is the biggest problem in your marriage. When she said that his need for physical attraction was not legitimate, it is clear she does not GET IT. It is very important. What is her PLAN to save your marriage? Is she focusing on things like "communication?" If she is, then you are in trouble because you are not focusing on the main issue: romantic love.

Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist who has written 12 books on marriage and SPECIALIZES in this field. There is a very narrow path to recovery after an affair and if it is not followed, it is a disaster. If your counselor is not following the steps I posted in Requirements for Recovery, your marriage won't make it.

Let me put it another way, Helen. If your husband was a recovering alcoholic would you insist he leave the bar or would you say "he is just going drink anyway if he wants so he can stay in there?"

Sure the alcoholic can go buy booze if he wants any time, but the temptation will not be so attractive if it is not under his nose all the time. If it is right there, then the booze is top of mind all the time.

Will power did not stop him the past and it won't stop him in the future.

It is the same with the OW. If she able to call him, then she is TOP OF MIND and eventually temptation will collide with opportunity and the affair will be back on again.

The way to recovery is to cut off any and all contact with the affairees. If she is still contacting him, then they are still in contact AND YOUR MARRIAGE WILL NEVER RECOVER.

Step ONE is NO CONTACT. Until that step is taken, you can't go to the next step. Get rid of the phone. It is not worth it.

Melody,
I did not brush off his concerns about the dogs in the bed. This is a period of 4 years of no sex or rarely. HE used the excuse of the dogs and HE likes the dogs sleeping in the bed. What did I do? I took the dogs outside the bedroom, closed the door, and initiated sex. I said to him that it's that easy to get rid of the dogs. It was an EXCUSE, thats what it was.

Secondly, I ask why no sex and he says he doesn't have the urge. I ask him, "Is it me?", he says no. I ask him "Are you still attracted to me?" He say's yes. He says he just doesn't have the urge.

The weight came up recently. What did I do? I lost 20lbs and am at 147. I'm still not done and joined the gym. I have bought sexy clothes, lingerie, etc.

Meeting his needs? Well, I read the list and sex obviously was lacking but not due to me not being willing. I would show him affection by rubbing his back, giving him a massage, being playful and tickling, hugging him, telling him I love him, telling him how smart he is, encouraging him and telling him how special he is, supporting anything he wants to do, taking him to the caribbean every year for a MONTH, pay all his bills, handle all the household duties/responsibilites, do all the cooking, cleaning, family responsibilites, care for the dogs, take care of the lawn, repair anything that is needed at home or our investment property, insure him with medical and dental, plan for our evenings out to a show, entertain his family, and much more. I put his needs before mine. Seriously, I need to change more? What more can I do! I tell him how much I love him all the time and give him gifts. He says I want and I get it for him.

Conversation, well I can talk for hours whereas trying to talk t him is like talking to a wall. He doesn't talk and that needs to change. I try and all he does is make fun of me for saying "So..." or "Umm.." just trying to get the conversation going. Oh, and lets add the freaking Iphone. He CONSTANTLY is playing games on it. We could be at a family event and he is on it playing games, ignoring everyone. We start talking and he walks away or starts playing his games. Wait, there's more...lets talk about the computer and his past shopping compulsion. Yea, over 20K that I paid for by taking a second mortgage. There's more...its more important to watch all of his TV series first before even considering sex. Try to have a conversation when he's got a gazillion shows he MUST watch. Way too much TV. The TV has to be on in the bedroom as well, can't sleep without it and he just wants to watch TV.



My demands are that he is open and transparent. That he communicates more, share with me what is wrong, lets work together.

I disagree, he is superficial to some extent. Yes, there needs to be physical attraction but when he tells me that he still loves me, was satisfied not having sex, but I gained weight tells a lot. Everyone is a "cow", his mother is called "buffalo butt", disrespectful and shallow. I'm attractive, funny, successful, smart, and a very generous caring woman. He even complained that I had a little double chin. I showed him our wedding photos where I had it then, I've always had a little fat under my chin for goodness sakes. He's balding and he's gained weight but I don't hold it against him, perhaps I should. Perhaps he should lose weight, take viagra to keep it up, and get hair implants so I stay atrracted to HIM.

Other than continuing to lose weight, scheduling a tummy tuck, breast implants, lipo, and fixing my chin and otherwise feeling like I'm a freaking loser because I can't stand up to "HIS" needs is driving me insane. I'm doing as much as I can and trying to learn to do even more to keep my husband and feel like I have to make up for what HE did!!!!!! Makes me feel like I justified his betrayal by not being the "perfect image" or ME not doing enough. At this point, I am 10 lbs heavier than when we got married 8 years ago and we've been together 11.

Maybe its not worth saving because I've given everything I have and I'm not sure there is much more inside of me left. I'm drained and tired!

This is Mom behavior. It does not encourage him to be a man who does some man work around the house and does some taking care of his wife. This might be why he is not interested in marital sex. I'm sorry you have to be here, but it's the best place for you to be. Listen to Melody as she is one of the best around.

Iagree, I do feel like his mother at times. What do you suggest Uphill other than him taking care of the lawn and the trash? What things would be considered taking care of is wife? Thanks!

Helen, that's quite a long post, but I wonder, do you even KNOW what his top emotional needs are? You have been doing alot of things that have obviously missed the mark because he has fallen out of love.

Has you both taken the emotional needs questionnaire? And how much undivided attention do you give each other each week? It takes 15 hours to sustain romantic love and 20+ hours to CREATE. Do you and yOur husband have dates? Quality time alone? How would you rate yourself in that area?

And I would just say again that it is disrespectful to dismiss your husband as "superficial." That is what we consider a Lovebuster. Disrespectful judgements can erode the love in marriage.

No, we haven't done the emotional needs questionaire yet but we will.

His typical day is to get up at 8:00 a.m., take a shower and leave at 9:00 for work. He comes home between 6-6:30 and heads straight to the computer. I cook dinner and he comes out to eat. During dinner, he wants to watch TV and not talk. He doesn't want to talk about his day at all and he doesn't ask me anything. I try to start a conversation but he doesn't engage.
Dinner is over, I clear the dishes and clean up while he either goes back onto his computer or flops on the couch to watch TV. Then its to watching all his recorded shows till 11pm, back on the computer one more time, then to bed. In bed, TV back on again and he falls asleep. If he doesn't fall asleep, same thing he doesn't want to talk but just pet the dogs. This is 6 days a week and sometimes he works 7 days a week. I forgot to add the numerous phone calls from the store in between everything too.

Now that he isn't working and I'm working at home he gets up whenever. Hits the bathroom, grabs a coke, and off to his computer. After the computer he plays Xbox or watches TV. Some days he may run an errand or two, clean his room looking for stuff to sell on Ebay, or search for home theater furniture and designs. I come down to talk to him several times a day, not interested in talking. He doesn't come up to my office, very rarely. After working, I start dinner and its the same routine.

Lately, I've planned date nights, not him. Planned a couples massage, a comedy show, a regular show, attended a birthday party together and booked a trip to Disney for Thanksgiving week. I invite him to go shopping, to fall festivities, go for a walk, join me at the gym, go racing, have lunch with friends, and so on but he doesn't want to most of the time. He hasn't planned anything.

As you can see, I try to give him undivided attention but he does not seem interested. What am I supposed to do? As far as time alone, we dont have children so we have that but is it quality? I wouldnt say so.

What I'm trying to say is that he is to a degree superficial and I think he needs to understand that no matter what you look like, it doesn't mean that you're not a good person. Don't judge a book by its cover basically.

I'm sensing that you are placing the blame on me for his decision to betray our vows and quite frankly, I don't appreciate it. He should of discussed with me his concerns before going outside the marriage and should have been honest with me each time I brought up my concerns. I'm the one reading the books and trying to make our marriage better, I'm the one here reading the advice. What is his role and responsibility in all this? Is what he is doing okay? I'm really beginning to think there's nothing there to save.

The idea is to come up with a schedule TOGETHER of activities that you BOTH like where you meet the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. One sided undivided attention is not what we mean with this, it has to be 2 sided. My H and I sit down together every Sunday afternoon and actually schedule out our time for the next week. Time that is scheduled is harder to dismiss. If it is not scheduled it is easier to put off.

Quality UA time is spent out of the home on dates, in 4 hour blocks. Would he do this with you? Because this step is essential to recovery.


More disrespect of your husband. Telling him that his emotional needs are "superficial" and meaningless is profoundly disrespectful and will only serve to push him away. I hope that you can see that tactics like this are a big part of what has ruined your marriage. If you don't learn it in this marriage, you will have it in the next marriage because one of the top emotional needs of men [and some women!] is physical attractiveness. If you are not willing to meet the needs of your spouse in any marriage, then you won't be married for long.


Your senses are incorrect.


You don't know what you are doing, though, and that is my point. All of these efforts you mention have availed you nothing. Do you see that? Your best efforts HAVE NOT WORKED. Do you want a plan that will work? If so, you are going to have to LISTEN and learn. You are going to have to put aside your own ideas and try something else. We can help you if you will listen. If not, then there is no reason for us to post to you.

I agree it needs to be 2 sided but its not. I suggest ideas to him and he agrees or disagrees on the activity. If I don't suggest anything, then nothing happens. So yes, it needs to be 2 sided, conmpletely agree.

Additionally, I have NOT told him he is superficial and this is absolutely not a big part of what ruined our marriage. Its an assumption. The big part that ruined our marriage is HIS withdrawal, not only from me but even from his own family. Its his inability to communicate, wanting to avoid conflict or face issues, and not being honest with me when I point out blank ask. Honesty and communication is KEY to a marriage! I do agree with physical attraction BUT not everyone is going to look like Barbie or an airbrushed model their entire life, its a fact! We do our best to stay fit and attractive, totally agree. What if he decides that my breasts are too small so I'm not attracted to you anymore? There's certain things each has to accept about each other. What if he gets looses the ability to have sex, do I decide well...since you aren't meeting my needs its okay for me to cheat on you? There's a certain amount of acceptance of who you are that needs to be enveloped into the physical attraction along with minor imperfections.

You are correct, my extensive efforts in our marriage has availed me of nothing. However, there must be effort on his part. I am trying, trying to learn and improve but he must as well. It takes two for a marriage to work. His ONLY complaint was that I gained some weight in the past 8 years, only thing he said when asked 3 things he'd like to see changed. So apparently I am meeting most of his needs, not all, but most. We'll see after the questionaire is completed. BTW, when I presented the questionaire he asked "when is it due?". I suggested within the next few days, he suggested the middle of next week. Mind you, he's not working, he sounds pretty interested huh?

Trust me, I'm listening but I still feel as though you are placing all the blame on me and that I drove him to cheat. I also think you're making some assumptions as well.

Just give me a shout when you are ready to get to work. This back and forth is a waste of my time and yours.

Helen,

There are changes you can implement on your side of the fence. These changes will make you feel better and can perhaps draw your husband back.

It doesn't seem fair that you might have to lead the way and I know how much resentment you feel towards him but implementing MB will make you better no matter the outcome of your marriage.

It may be that you decide to end the marriage. That is always on option but why not try a new approach first? It will require you some work on your part and a new way of thinking about and approaching your marriage and your husband.

Do it for you so that no matter what happens here you'll know you did your best.

Melody Lane is one of the best people on here in terms of guiding others. She wants to help. Let her.

ps. his porn problem is a big problem. it creates a contrast affect as he compares you with the porn ladies. you can't win that battle. is he willing to give up the porn? that should be a condition of recovering the marriage.

I understand Zibbles and I'm not opposed to changing and trying to give it my best. You put it well regarding the contrast effect and perhaps my use of the word superficial was a poor choice but you seemed to understand.

I really don't want to end the marriage but Melody has made me feel as though its all my fault, that its ME that has to change. Sorta feel like I'm being attacked vs helped and that I haven't done enough already.

We are doing the questionaire and I'm still reading:)

As far as the porn, he doesn't see a problem with it. He grew up with it and "likes to look at it occasionally". However, I found over 50 sites he vistid and some sites are to hookup/meetup. Most of these sites were for teens and from crocoporn.com, youngleafs.com, bravoteens.com and justhookup.com. I don't think he has met anyone in person but I could be wrong. I can't compete with teens!

Will he stop the porn? I really don't know. I did tell him how it made me feel but he still doesn't see anything wrong with it. This is where his statements to me conflict. He was ok not having sex, had no desire, was fine yet he was looking at porn. So he had desire, yes? He turned to the porn to fulfill that need, yes? Am I wrong? I would of hoped he came to me to talk but he didn't.

From what you've described there's a pretty big chasm between the two of you. You're not connecting and your resentment and exhaustion over trying to make things better is depleting you.

Soon you might not have any energy or desire to work on it

The thing is, your resentment towards him IS a love buster. He must feel it and that's what I think Melody Lane is pointing out to you. Whether you realize it or not, you are love busting him.

You can change this. It's going to be hard because you're almost out of gas here. Study more here. Read up on plan a and learn more about your husbands needs and try to meet them. Get those 20 hours in of undivided attention.

If he won't join you, it's not going to work. You simply can't do it all for both of you but perhaps with a new approach, you can at least get him to open up and try.

I know it's hard and I too would be hurt and angry if I felt rejected by my partner and judged for having gained a little weight. Your feelings are justified but is there another way to respond here?

Melody Lane is the BEST of the BEST here. She's not fooling around and if you get offended by her questions, there's something worth looking at and working on.

Thanks for the kind words, zibbles! I don't really have time to post much anyway so it works out for the best.

I agree Zibbles. I'm not trying to impose my opinion on my spouse or negate his opinion. In fact, I've never stated to him or implied to him my thoguhts on the topic. Physical attractiveness is important for him and I suspect the importance of each need may change throughout the life of a marriage. For instance, sexual fullfillment may be important at age 30 but not when we are 85. Maybe it still will be at 85, who knows:)

I understand his need for physical attractivenss, I truly do however I do beleive we can respectfully disagree on certain issues. Perhaps he can understand my position and I his, perhaps one of us changes to agree and accept the other's.

Both of us need to be thoughtful and sensitive to each other's feelings. Each of us completed the emotional needs questionaire last night and we'll discuss it sometime today. It's a start:)

I understand Melody is trying to help, and I do appreciate it. However I felt like I had to defend myself for my feelings and I think some of my previous posts comments weren't taken into consideration. However, in reading more I do think our emotional needs will change over time. Now, as it appears, physical attractivness is high on his priorities but I suspect it might be replaced with #2 or #3 as we get older.

Just to add, I don't think he is the only that has to change but we both need to change. I'm absolutely willing to do whatever it takes to improve myself and our marriage.

Have you taken the emotional needs Q? Do you know that PA is a high need for him?

If it is what is your plan to meet it?

Yes, we'll discuss it tonight.

Ok.

Will you both be able to remain calm while discussing it?

I hope so! I don't think yelling, screaming, getting nasty etc accomplishes much. I'm prepared to hear things I migh not like, that's okay.

As for him? Who knows. When I try to talk to him about the affair he gets an attitude and his body language speaks volumes. Will he be the same way? Not sure, I hope not.

Hope?

Can you control yourself? You need to be able to control yourself.

It won't do any good if you can't control yourself. You can only control yourself and not him.

So what's your plan?
Also what's your plan to clean up your side of the street?

If PA is a top need of his what is your plan to meet it?

Let me rephrase, I will be calm and control myself. You asked if BOTH can be, that's why I said "hope":) I can't speak for him:)Surprisingly, I've been extremely calm during this whole ordeal, even when talking to the OW.

First, I need to find out all his needs before making a plan. With that said, I'll do what needs to be done.

I've already lost 20lbs, starting working out, eating healthier, reading Surviving an Affair, etc. Once I know his needs, the plan will develop further. Still need to lose another 10-12 lbs, which is going slow, but I just ordered a book suggested by Melody called "Good Calories Bad Calories" more so to learn to eat better, better food choices for the long term.

I have an appt next week with a plastic surgeon to discuss getting rid of my chin, breast implants, and a tummy tuck. The chin has always been there, always will be but if he doesn't like it, I'll fix it. He likes big boobs, well he'll get them. The tummy tuck is for me...no matter how thin I am its still there so I want that gone.

To help control the weight, I've even stopped taking my meds until I see the Dr. again to get something different or an herbal alternative.

I've stopped traveling for my job so we can spend more time together. I'm willing to even take a significant pay cut if it doesn't affect his "Financial Support" need too much since I'm the breadwinner and sole source of family support for the most part. BTW, he was ok with my traveling in the past despite me expressing my concerns that it might adversely affect our marriage. He encouraged it and supported it but I did discuss it with him first.

As I learn more of what he wants, I'll do it.

Are you 100% sure he is NC with OW?

Did you finally expose the affair?

What EPs has he implemented?

I beleive he is in NC with the OW. I haven't seen HIM texting, calling, emailing her at all. SHE, the OW, texted him this past Sunday and Monday but he didn't respond. He deleted the texts and never said a word to me. He stated he wanted to avoid confict, sweep it under the rug type of thing. I texted the OW telling her to stop texting my husband. The OW is 22 and he is 45, she fell in love with him and I don't think its the end of her. He claims they didnt have intercourse but I'm not so sure I beleive it. I'll talk to him about blocking her number and her friends numbers as well tonight.

I exposed the affair to his parents, grandmother, aunt, uncle, and to my family. He left work so I haven't exposed it there yet. I'm afraid if I do, it will set us back. He's hoping to someday return there after she's gone. Why? He has a felony record so its hard for him to find a job and even though he hates his former job, its a job. So what do I do? He's gone, Melody said to expose it and I want to but honestly, I'm afraid of the fallout.

Husbands EP- none that I'm aware of. He's aware that I need honesty, affection and communication at this point. Since D-Day (9/9/12) he has cuddled me 3 times, sorta if you count just putting your hand on me. Communication, well refer to the first paragraph- not being too transparent either.

Sex is better but usually I still have to initiate. He still says he has no urge. That I should just use him for when I want it, that once its started he does enjoy it but he doesn't have the urge to start himself. Although twice he did initiate which is good.

We'll see after tonight once we go thru all of our emotional needs and discuss our plans further.

EPs are extraordinary precautions. Like never talking with Women about his personal life, etc.

Why hasn't he changed all contact information? Did he write a NC letter?

What snooping techniques do you have in place?

If he quit that job why not take Mel's advice and expose? He isn't at that job anymore, why would it set you back?

I agree and he has boundary issues, for sure. I'd like it if he didn't work around other women, perhaps something a more male environment.

He texted her that it was over and not to contact him again.

I have a keylogger and iphone software.

I'm afraid he'd get mad. He wants to stay on good terms with the former employer. I'm sure he'd get mad thinking "I left my job for you. Why did you do that? What purpose did it serve? You ruined my chances of ever going back. I don't appreciate you doing that to me."

Trust me, I want to in the worst way but will it do more harm than good? He and the OW worked together, he quit and isn't contacting her so is it worth it? I don't know and I'm scared of the outcome when he finds out.

Why won't he change his contact information? This leaves the door open for her to continue to contact him, it's just a matter of time.

His contact number is his business number. Its all over the truck, the trailer, promotional materials, shirts....everything.

We're talking thousands of dollars to change his number.

Well if his business is more important than his marriage?

He hasn't even blocked her number? How do you know he isn't out seeing her while you're at work?

I stopped traveling so now I work out of the house 99% of the time.

He's working hard to get this business going and if we block her number then it should be okay. Not 100% but I do check the phone bill too. I'll see it whether she calls or uses the store or friends number. I'll also look for unusual patterns.

DDay was on 9/9 and yet there has not been much done to protect your marriage and work toward recovery since then. I am not insinuating that YOU have not put work in Helen! Because I can tell you are sensitive to that I am saying that he does not seem like he is doing anything to work toward recovery on his part, and it doesn't sound like you are holding him accountable to that.

I would highly suggest you continue snooping though, based on his interactions with you it sounds to me like this is a false recovery and his A has just gone underground. I am glad to hear you don't believe his wayward story minimalizing this affair, because I don't either. One of the conditions for recovery should be for him to take a polygraph to prove to you that you have all of the information surrounding his affair.

EP's and creating good boundaries around your marriage are ESSENTIAL, in general but even more so when there has been an infidelity. This would include no contact with the OW, eliminating any avenues for the OW to contact him, total transparency to you, etc.

So, he did NOT stop lying and did NOT tell you everything. Clearly, he has been filling you full of wayward bullcrap.

Once again, I am glad to see you post in future posts that you do not believe what he has told you. Any third party can see that it is a bunch of lies. Demand that he take a poly and get the truth about what your WH has been doing in your OWN HOME.

One of the cornerstone MB concepts is the PORH (Policy of Radical Honesty). This is ESSENTIAL for recovery after and A. He should provide you with all details regarding his A, and you should confirm those details with a poly. Once you have all the details you require, you should not discuss the A again (rehashing). But you can't 'rehash' what you haven't yet hashed now can you? If he is still lying to you and withholding information, that does not constitute rehashing.

He offered to quit his job and go to counseling even though he says that nothing happened? Oh, wait, ORAL SEX happened. FYI even if that was true, it is cheating.

This is the problem. You have been betrayed. You should not be 'asking' your WH to do these things for you. This should be a 'here is what it will take for ME to recover our marriage with YOU after your affair.' As part of your EP's that he needs to agree with for you to invest in recovery, he CANNOT take his iphone into the bathroom with him. Period. There should not be 'asking' him to protect your marriage, it should be a condition that needs to be met for YOU to invest in recovery.


Please don't make the mistake of thinking that this young girl fell for your older H and is chasing HIM. He could just as easily have 'fallen for her' if she met his most important EN's. And don't be shy about telling her that you will do whatever you need to do to fight for your marriage. Not so sure about choosing words that are short and sweet. Nothing sweet about having an A with a married man.

Dr Harley says that you should never trust someone. All people are wired for affairs, which is why it is important to have integrated, completely transparent lifestyles with very high boundaries to protect yourself from affairs. He doesn't like being under a microscope for a REASON. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

Good job on losing 20lbs! Finding out what his needs are and meeting them for a great marriage in the future is very important. But right now, making sure this A is dead is more important. Creating a recovery plan that involves EP's and boundaries is more important. Having plastic surgery and getting bigger bxxbs (will that be edited ) is ...controversial so I won't comment... but if he continues to have poor boundaries it will not matter, he will continue with this A or another one.

You remind me a lot of myself Helen, when I first came here. Bitter and resentful, couldn't HELP but spew terrible things about my WH! Yet under that, really really dedicated to doing whatever I could to have a great marriage.

Can you ditch your current MC and invest in some sessions with the Harleys?

He agreed to stop taking the phone in because I told him that it made me feel unconfortable and I didn't like it. I'd feel better if he didn't and he stopped.

He very well could of fell for her. No question about it. I saw a text that he said "I will always have certain feelings for you". I also saw where he discussed "pros and cons but there's more cons". He also stated he knew the OW wouldn't stay with him long term. So yes, I agree.

Reason why I didn't get nasty is that it was in writing, texting. I will not do anything to jeopardize myself or get myself into trouble. My wording was strong and she got the message. She thought I should flatten her tire or key her car, that would be satisfactory retribution. Again, I'm not putting myself in the position to get in trouble with the law.

You can't use words like "please stop...I'd feel better if..." because that makes it his CHOICE. This is a requirement for you to commit to recovering with HIM, not a choice he can make.

How about that poly?

Unwritten, I don't mean to come off bitter/resentful. I think I've contributed a lot of love bank deposits over the years. I've received NONE. So when I consistently hear what I have to do it makes me think about what he should do. Trust me, I know I'm not perfect and she fullfilled his EN by flirting and being an attractive young women.

I'm quite interested in going over our EN questionaire because he couldn't come up with anything he'd like to see changed in me other than lose the weight. He said that himself.

As I completed the questionaire it became blatantly obvious that he's been deficient in virtually all areas. But no matter what I tried, he wasn't receptive. He had his porn, the OW, and just what appears to be a blatant disinterest. So I'm more fustrated than bitter? Maybe I'm wrong but trust me, I'm willing to commit and do what is needed but he has to as well, can't do it alone.

Admittedly, the past year I've been extremely depressed and had given up so this has been an eye opener but it still doesn't justify him having an affair.

He wouldn't do a poly, no way. I wouldn't even know where to go to have one done even if he did agree.

Here.
Polygraph Testing

I didn't mean to come off bitter/resentful either Working hard in a marriage and caring deeply about its success, and feeling like that is one sided can take its toll. Add to that infidelity, who would NOT have resentment???

What you can do to help in recovery is to lay that resentment aside, it will not help you to recover. It will not make your WH feel safe to recover with you. If he is in an A it will drive him further away. Understandable = COMPLETELY. Helpful = not at ALL. And, its not good for you...

NOTHING you have or haven't done justifies his affair. Nothing. Nobody here will ever insinuate that it does. You are 100% responsible for the things that you did to create a marriage with poor boundaries and where needs were left unmet, but you are NOT responsible for his choice to have an affair.

I can relate to all of your weight posts, they practically mirror my own. I won't weigh in on that, maybe just observe and learn

You need to require more for yourself. Dr Harley does suggest Plan B/seperation if a spouse is unwilling to meet the other spouses EN's. And it is 100% the advice given to a BS whose WS refuses to recover the marriage after their affair and protect it from future affairs.

Make the poly a requirement. Why do you settle for crumbs?

Are you in the US? Many people here have required their WS to have a poly, including me. You can find polygraph examiners anywhere in the US (if you are remote you might have to drive a little...). We had several in our area but we are in a metro area. It cost us $400.

You cannot recover a marriage based on lies and deceit. You can only recover with RH. I can tell by reading your posts that RH is very important to you too (top EN).

Make it a REQUIREMENT. In other words, if he wants to remain married to you, then he needs to be RH and do a poly to prove to you that he has been.

#1- Open and Honest
#2- Communication
#3- Physical Attractiveness

Discussed EN's- Wants more affection once a day, loose weight, stop harping are his three things.

My asking if he applied to unemployment yet and got his blood work done for his high blood pressure is deemed to be harping. I told him I am just concerned and will stop periodically asking. I also said had he communicated more with me then perhaps I wouldn't have to ask. No problem, I'll ask once and thats it.

More affection, not a problem as is loosing more weight. Those were his concerns. Says he still loves me and is still attracted to me just no desire due to the weight.

I asked more about the affair. He said I wasn't even a thought when they started it. He doesn't know why he didn't think of me or us or our marriage. It was something new, different and he didnt think he'd get caught.

He liked the thrill of the attention of a 22 yr old and STILL wonders what it would of been like to have had intercourse. He liked the flirting and what 45 yr old man wouldn't want to be with a 22 yr old. He seems to want to call her one last time to tell her not to text anymore, I said no. "It would be better for her and us so you dont expend any more energy on this". I said he can never talk to her again, ever. She texts/calls- let me know and I will handle it.

Blocking the number- dont want to spend the money on it. I said our marriage is worth it- we are still discussing. Changing the number- no because she'll get it off his truck or trailer, he's got a valid point.

He talked about going back to the retail store, I said that can't happen. Its a closed chapter in our life and brought us much pain. I expressed that I don't even want anyone from the store calling, its time to move on and its possible she might be at the other end of the phone. No contact is my expectation. He seems to agree.

Talked about boundaries and he agrees that he needs to work on that issue. He tried to stop the flirting but the OW kept it up and he kept caving in.

He says he is willing to work on meeting my EN's but it will be alot of work. If things aren't going to work out, then he doesnt want to put the effort into it. He asked when is this all over? In other words, 3 yrs down the road is this going to brought up again and I said it shouldn't (am i right?).

He thinks he's depressed as well as he don't care about much.

We discussed what we need to do and are working on a plan. The EN questionaire was EXCELLENT! Talked for over 3 hrs!

You really need to stop making these 'requests' of him. This verbiage that you used is like using a wet noodle to hammer in a nail, when what you really need is a hammer. How about...'HXLL no you are not going to call her. If you want to stay married to me and recover this marriage, you will send her a NC letter that you write and I approve and we mail together, and that will be the LAST contact you ever have with her, ever again.' (hammer.)

If you block the number she will not text or call, therefore you will not have to 'handle it.' Too expensive to block a number? Good grief it is like a slap in the face to have your WH betray you, and then tell you that the menial cost of this one small gesture that might help heal you and make you feel safe again is too much money. I hope you see that.


Do not be 'discussing' this. NC and doing what needs to be done to create and maintain NC is not negotiable.


Better. More hammerlike.


Have you worked on a list of EP's to use in creating those boundaries? You need to have this in writing.


When he tells you everything, and that is confirmed with a poly. When he agrees to a recovery program of your choosing (MB), agrees to follow the EP's you have put in place to protect your marriage from future affairs. When you work together to create a better marriage than you have ever had. Well...then it is not over but you do not discuss the A anymore. This is not something that you can just 'get over' and it sounds like thats what he wants you to do.

I'm going to ask for his cell phone account login information and the OW's number as well as her friends will be blocked. I agree that the cost is worth it and it has to be done. No exceptions, non negotiable.

I'll write a NC letter and we'll both send it. Any samples on the site? I did a search and nothing came up.

I told him he can't have opposite sex friendships due to his inability to respect boundaries and to prevent this from happening again. We also need to be completely open and honest with each other- no more "avoiding conflict" or "sweeping things under the rug". We deal with it together and move on, its necessary and he agrees. I even said I'd want him to find a job that is more working with males than females due to his boundary issues and no retail job at all.

I was truthful when he asked if this will be thrown up in his face years down the road. I said that I'll never forget it,it will always be in the back of my mind. It shouldn't be thrown up in his face down the road once we are past it, I don't beleive that is a good thing and we need to move forward. If he starts displaying the same behaviors it may trigger me to ask him questions but these would be questions, not accusations. Again, open and honest is what is needed.

It bothers me that he just had the A without even thinking of me, it really does. The A only lasted 3 months but it kept on progressing and he developed certain feelings for her but didn't love her or want a relationship, so he says.

I forget, have you ever done an exposure? Not just to his/her work but to your/his/her family, friends, FB friends, etc. If you do not know how to do this MelodyLane has a link in her sig. This is important to bring his affair out into the light and make him accountable, which will help kill the affair. It will also get you much needed RL support for what you are going through.

Good job on the blocking, blocking OW's friends is good too. As far as his login info, you should have access to ALL of his accounts from now on, complete transparency (and vice versa).

Yes there are samples on this site of NC letters. I am a terrible librarian and I have no idea how to link although every time I post that I think to myself that I should learn... I'll see what I can find unless Brainhurts is out there and can link it for me...

Regarding the RH, have you brought up a poly? I do not think you have the full details of this A. Starting out with lies regarding the A will NOT allow you to heal. We have a poster on here who has been in recovery since April and just this week learned new details. Every time you hear new details that you were deceived about it is like a DDay all over again. You can not heal like that, and your marriage is based on lies. There is only one way to know if what your WH is telling you is truth or lies at this point, since he has been majorly gaslighting you (Brainy please post the gaslighting link too!), and that is to do a poly.

Dr Harley does not believe in rehashing the affair, negative history, etc. The purpose of the MB program is to move forward and have a marriage that is better than you have ever had. But when it comes to infidelity, there are things that need to take place for that to happen. One is RH regarding the A, and answering all the questions that you have. I would put money on the fact that you are still being deceived and gaslighted. You cannot recover this way.

My H also says that he didn't even 'remember he was married.' It is VERY hurtful to hear this. Wayward brains get addicted to the drug of the A and do not think normally. A wayward can become a totally different person than you thought you knew.

Here you go.

No contact Letter Samples


Coping with Infidelity The End Part 2


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Thank you both:) I'll present it to him today and I'll mail it.

One question- He made a comment about every time we talk about the A it makes him think of the A as in the thrill, excitement, what would have been like etc. Is he still in withdrawal or denial of his true feelings? Is this normal? I know he'd rather forget it happened but it did happen.

Have you had all your questions about the affair answered? If so then Dr. Harley says to never bring up the affair again.

I'm just really concerned, for his lack of trying to close all avenues for her to contact him. His excuses are weak and setting you up for a false recovery.

False recoveries can be more painful then original DDays. Please read.
False Recovery

This is called the FOG.

Hopefully the fog will lift, and he will see that he has betrayed and devastated the woman he said his vows to. Any WS who has true remorse begins to loathe the idea of the A and the AP, because it represents to them the fact that they behaved in such a way as to bring deep pain to someone they love. It makes them feel like they are dirt, like a dirty scumbag. It makes them feel guilt and saddness, it does NOT make them feel excitement. I speak from experience here.

That might not happen today or tomorrow, the level of remorse a BS accepts seems to be contingent on the BS, but many women need to see that 'hat in hand' level of remorse before they can truly recover.

Are you continuing to snoop? What methods do you have in place? I am highly concerned he is still in contact with her. Many WS's when caught just go deeper underground. Secret phones, etc. Make sure you do not let your guard down, he sounds very foggy still.

Brainhurts can you also link the gaslighting thread, I think her WH is majorly gaslighting her. Thanks!

Yes here it is.

Please explain Gaslighting

I have a keylogger installed and check his phone. Although, I am just waiting for the opportunity to check his truck for a second phone. Just haven't had the chance.

I'm still on high alert, make no mistake but after last night it will become more apparent if he is truly willing to change. Actions speak louder than words. Sending the NC letter today and giving up passwords will also be telling.

As far as the NC letter, we dont have her home address. What are your thoughts on me hand delivering it to her work and at the same time expose the A to her new boss? Good idea? Bad idea?

As far as more exposure..should I tell all friends of the family? When he found out I told his parents he was upset and said it should of been kept between us. What happens between us is our private issues and we shouldnt go outside the relationship. Pre MB- I did it so he'd have to face people and own up to what he did- not live under a facade.

HE writes the no contact letter and you approve it.

EXPOSE to everyone that you feel can help influence him to work on the marriage.

Get a polygraph. So you can put this to rest once and for all. If he resists, it's a very bad sign that he is lying and hiding things from you and you're heading into a false recovery.

You need to let him know what it will take for you to stay married to him. Give him a list of requirements. These requirements are NON NEGOTIABLE.

I did the NC letter from the book, I'll have him write it. Glad I asked!! Once again, thank you!

I would say no to hand delivering the letter from work. If you do that it appears to come from you and not him. Although you want to be the one to approve the letter and see to it that it gets mailed, all she knows is that she got a letter from him in his handwriting saying he does not want any further contact with her.

You sound like a good sleuther, I'm sure you can find a way to get her home address

Yes tell all friends and family. He is upset you told his parents because affairs thrive in secrecy. Once the affair is exposed, now it is just a dirty immoral act, takes away that thrill and fantasy and makes it more real. Now instead of the cool sexy guy who some 22 yr old wants, he is just a low life cheater who is cheating on his wife. AND, makes him more accountable. It is much more difficult to be deceitful and manipulative when everyone arounds you knows that you are.

As far as what happens between you is your private issues and you shouldn't go outside the relationship....um....HE is the one who went outside the relationship and brought in ANOTHER WOMAN. Yet he thinks he has the right to tell you that telling people about it is wrong???

Besides, he seems to think it was no big thing. He seems to think it was sexy and cool and that it makes him look like the cool guy to be with a 22 yr old. Heck if that's the case, why wouldn't he want you to tell the world how cool he is!

Yes have him write it in his handwriting. Do not let him add any mumbo jumbo about how he doesn't like to hurt her or will always remember their time together, some waywards try that kinda thing...

Just looking at the thread for NC letters. What if he doesnt start or state anywhere in it how he hurt me or it was wrong to have the A, do I tell him to put it in? Do I suggest it or wait and see what he writes?

I want to do this right the first time:)

He is in the fog, so honestly right now he might not care that it hurt you or was wrong. He's thinking of him right now--self preservation. Sorry, but that is the truth.

When I wrote my NC letter, my BH sat down with me and basically dictated it. I added a few things. I gave my BH the letter so he could reread it and put it in the envelope and deliver it.

Thanks FF! I'm beginning to understand more, especially after reading the links posted by unwritten and brainhurts.

All phone numbers the OW may call from are now blocked. He gave me no problems when asked for the online account information for the cell phone.

What about the NC letter?

He still hasn't written it. I'm not sure if he thinks that now her number is blocked he don't have to?? Just guessing.

His mom stopped by and turns out SHE's the OW in her relationship, bothered me quite a bit. No, it bothered me a lot! What bothered me more was my WH saying "If he doesn't love his GF of 9 yrs, why stay?" Hello, he went back to her and they are in their late 60's, not married but still in a relationship. So what his mother is doing is right? SHE IS DOING WHAT WAS DONE TO ME! His mother only cares about herself!

My point being is that my WH's A with the OW is probably no different! OW wants him and is HE going behind my back as well? Will he? Did he? Is this really a FR?

I'll ask again tomorrow about the NC letter and also let him know that today he did not meet my EN's as discussed last night. Seriously, when is he going to start? Is he serious? And I thought we made some progress, perhaps I was wrong.

Helen,

If he will not step up and start doing the things that are required for recovery you will need to start preparing for Plan B.

A NC letter is non-negotiable.

You need to tell him

It is important that you present a PLAN to your WS for recovery. The next step is to lead your marriage out of the ditch.

First step is to DEMAND your spouse end the affair.


Ask him/her to send a no contact letter to the OP that is written together, approved by you and mailed together. [template below from SAA]

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Unless you use this program to create a much better marriage than the one you had before the affair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!

Please don't put much confidence in the fact that you blocked numbers the OW could call from. That doesn't mean much at all. She can use a friend's phone to call. She can use a different work phone. She can use a pay phone. She can use a pre-paid phone. She can use the desk phone at the library, grocery, drugmart, etc.

I know you really want to believe that your husband is going to make great choices. But your husband is still an addict and isn't capable of making decent choices. Again, I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, but this is the new reality for you. I'm sorry.

I know you want to believe the OW is chasing him .....but he has given her something to chase, and he has been chasing too.

Or, maybe he didn't write it because...he is still in a relationship with her. I'm just guessing too...

I definately dont put much faith in the blocked numbers, that for sure. There are other ways to make contact, fully aware of it. I will be looking for a prepaid phone this weekend.

Its possible they are still in a relationship and I haven't ruled that out either. Its been 3 weeks since he last saw her and less than a week since she last sent a text.

We've been over items 1-6.

Except for the telephone booth on the corner. Or her third cousin's girlfriend's mom's phone, etc etc...

Blocking won't work when they use a random phone. I'm sorry if I missed it, but why have you not required him to change his number entirely?

If these people aren't married, it's not adultery. What has happened with you is much, much worse than middle-aged people with multiple girlfriends or boyfriends.

Bliss,

Helen says that her WH said OW will just get his number off his work vehicle.

So his excuses are because of cost and inconvenience. We have been trying to explain to Helen his weak excuses are ways for him to keep the affair alive and cracks for communication.

He also won't write the NC letter, because he "blocked" her number.

First off, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all of your advice and guidance!

Just an update- Things are going quite well, he's changed and is more affectionate, helpful, and thoughtful now. We went on a week vacation and midway thru I started to see the changes.

For now, I'm still checking everything and he tells me his exact schedule, calls in between errands, and is communicating a lot more. I think it will be awhile before I fully trust him but it seems like we are off to a good start. I finished reading the book and we still have some work to do. We're spending at least 15 hrs a week of quality time together, this weekend we are making christmas decorations, decorating the house, and have a date night.

I'm still a bit guarded in case this is a false recovery or if I'm being gaslighted, I've read both articles posted and they were helpful:) I still have questions but if I continue to ask, am I making us go backwards? Should I just accept that I may not get the answers? I realize I need to move on at some point for both of our sakes. Some things he just doesnt remember, particularly when it comes to dates of when this or that started or occured but he's always been like that with everything.

Also, I did expose the affair to his former employee. I was a bit nervous but it went exceptionally well and the boss was very understanding and sympathetic. Honestly, it felt good to do it, to make that step that was needed and recommended by all.

If you have questions, you need to ask all of them and then never talk about the affair again.

Did he ever write and send the NC letter?

He sent a text stating it was over and not to ever contact him again. No, he never wrote a formal letter to mail like the one mentioned in the forums. I'm thinking she's been told its over, I've texted her as well. The last text was 11/6 from her and nothing since unless there is a second phone which I cannot find so there may or may not be one. My thinking is that he told her, albeit not in the format suggested, but none the less she has been told. I'm also thinking that by doing so might restart the withdrawal period as is mentioned in the book. The vacation helped with the withdrawal as well, that was recommended by the book.I think he might nearing the end of it based upon his attentiveness and the change in him. My plan was if there was another contact by her or even him, to have him immediately write it and send it. Just seems, key word seems, like we've moved past that stage. What do you think? I'm just afraid of going backwards to be quite honest.