I copied this over here for LongHaul, so he can ask and answer questions here and allow his wife to ask and answer questions on the thread she started.

Hi LongHaul,

Welcome!

The Surviving An Affair recovery plan is clear: the first step is to have No Contact with the affair partner for life.
You need to write a No Contact letter (use the one in the book) and give it to your wife to read. She should mail it certified mail.
You need to leave the job and possibly move, as instructed in the book

Hi Longhaul, welcome to Marriage Builders! Kudos to you for being committed to doing the hard things to turn this around. You can come out of this with a much better marriage than what you had before. The big difference between Marriage Builders and other marriage programs is that MB focuses on creating romantic love in your marriage. It does not focus so much on communication or conflict resolution, because those areas are much easier to resolve when a couple is in love. So that is the goal of Marriage Builders. It takes about 2 years to recover from an affair, but it is a lifelong program. In order to be successful, a couple must change the habits that led to the affair and to the loss of love in the marriage.


Glad to hear it.


That is great to hear. It seems you do understand that the only way to recover your marriage is to get out of there. Recovery is impossible any other way. You also need to be far apart from her in order for YOU to heal. Being in the environment that led to the affair will keep you triggered so I agree it is a good idea for you to get out.

It sounds like you are very much on the right track and I applaud you for having the courage to do the right thing. I know that was not easy for you. Welcome to our board. You will find lots of great help here.

Welcome Longhaul to MB it is great to see you are willing to work on rebuilding your marriage.

It's good you are also willing to change jobs, Melody Lane is right this will enable recovery.

Welcome LongHaul.

The ability to recover your marriage from an affair depends solely on the work you put into it. If you do not put the work in, the timeframe is extended, and or you never recover. In our case, for instance, following DDay we did not put 100% into recovery, did not follow the MB program, etc. and instead we limped along for well over a year. 2+ years past DDay and one RA later and we are finally investing in recovery. In that 1+ year of limping along, we added more fuel to the fire and more resentment to have to work through. Wasted time, when we could have already been recovered.

Put 100% into this recovery, and you will recover your marriage more quickly, and you will end your wife's suffering much more quickly too.

Either way this is a long process. You have years of deception to make just compensation for, and creating a marriage where your BW feels safe and loved will be a long road for you. With hard work it is very possible, and your wife sounds like an amazingly strong woman willing to fight the fight with you. Put the work in and it will pay off in the end. You CAN recover from this. There are many success stories on this board to prove it.

Welcome, LongHaul.

"Contact" means any instance in which you see the affair partner, and/or any instance in which you talk to her. So when you say you haven't had contact in 2 years, this makes me think that you didn't quite understand what "no contact" means, or how crucial it is.

No contact doesn't just mean no physical contact. It means no contact, at all. None.

I can tell you about how well it works to try to end an affair and restore a marriage, while remaining in contact with the affair partner. It doesn't work well at all. See, a little over 4 years ago, I was in an emotional affair (up to then), with a married woman. I had times where I could see where it was heading, and I knew it was wrong, so I told myself I had to end it. But the trouble was, I continued to see the other woman every Thursday at music rehearsals. And after not too long, I resumed taking her calls. And a few weeks after that, despite all my good intentions of ending it, I was paying cash for hotel rooms. (Y'know, so it wouldn't show up on the credit card statement.)

Here's the thing: Even if the other woman is in another building, her mere proximity to you is driving a tiny little knife into your wife's mind every day. Because she has to wonder... "What if this one day, the other woman has to come to his building? What if he runs into her at a gas station nearby? What if his boss asks him to go over there?" Etc., etc. In this case, all your wife has to go on, in this case, is your word. And unfortunately, your word is worth dust right now -- you ground it into dust yourself with the multiple years of lies. So you can't get by just on your word right now -- instead, what will speak for you -- really the only thing that can speak for you -- is actions.

The best action you can take is getting out of that work location. I'm not saying quit your job at 8:00am Monday & lose your home, but just that you need to be putting yourself on a pretty short-term glide-path (weeks is better than months) to find another job as soon as you can. Because every new day you spend there is like that little knife being stuck into your wife's mind. That makes it hard for her to heal & hard to heal your marriage. It makes it harder for her to feel emotionally safe around you, and therefore it makes it harder to be more 'giving' toward you.

LongHaul, I know about affairs, and why they start, and how they should end, and I know what it feels like to be a guy who realizes he screwed up bad & who wants to make it right for his wife but doesn't quite know how. So if you've got questions about that stuff, you can ask me.

I'll tell ya up-front, I don't understand this business about 'threatening to leave' her at various times. Threatening to leave? That's the very opposite of helping her to feel emotionally safe with you. Part of protecting her feelings means realizing that you can't ever go there again.

I'd say "Welcome", but in truth, we'd all prefer you and your BW never to have needed to come here at all.

You are working on a very limited schedule, not for recovery, but for additional-damage prevention, so get ready to work.

You need to document the entire sordid mess - every detail. Use your work-log, use charge-card receipts, coordinate with other things going on in your life, ask co-workers about events if necessary. You need to have the entire record available ASAP. The next time you say, in response to a question, "I don't remember," or, fatuously, "I must have blocked it out," you are likely to be looking at your BW in the rearview mirror, as you and she drive off in different directions.

You must steel yourself for additional pain and damage to your BW even if everything proceeds relatively orderly. You are going to have to change jobs - economic disruption. You will have to move. You will have to tell both families - humiliation and embarrassment. You are going to have to schedule STD screens for both you and your BW - more of the same. Almost certainly the affair will become known to each your coworkers' sets, and family friends. And through all of this you get ZERO allowance for regret or mourning, as you will be expected to bear her load as well as your own.

Like I said, "Welcome" is not an appropriate greeting to a WS.

Now get to work.

LongHaul, are you going to respond to the folks who took the time and effort to make posts to you? We took time out of our lives to post to you and would appreciate the same in return.

Thanks...

Hey there LongHaul. I just found yours and strongerme's threads. I want to urge you to choose to just get it all out (fears, truth, needs, whatever), so you can own it. Once you own it, you can work on it - change things. Your wife needs you to be completely humble, honest, ego free, excuse free. It is time to open it all up, deal with it, so you can make the changes necessary to overcome it. If you don't do these things, strongerme will have no security or trust in you, and you won't be able to recover your marriage.

If you are willing to let ego and fears go, be honest, and work hard, you will get the absolute best help and advice here. These people here have been where you and strongerme are. They know what it takes to recover and create a better marriage than before b/c they have done that. They will tell you like it is. They won't let you lie to yourself. You may even find yourself feeling anger over some things you read. That is usually when they hit the nail on the head, but you aren't wanting to admit it yet. It will take a little time for you to let all of your defenses down, but I hope you can. It is really a wonderful thing that everyone here just wants to help people create happier, more fulfilling marriages.

It takes a lot of hard work to create a happy, fulfilling marriage. It takes even more hard work to fix the wrongs, then create a happy marriage. I don't think anyone really knew at the beginning of their marriages how hard it was going to be or even the right things to do to create a happy marriage. So, now you have the chance to start over, do it right this time. You have been given a wonderful gift LongHaul, please cherish it for what it is and don't throw it away.

Jedi_Knight- Thanks for the input. I have no problem in No Contact with the affair partner for life. The No contact letter was mailed today. We live 30 miles away from work and are looking at the job 60 miles away from the current job.

MelodyLane- Thanks for all of your input. Your post are very supportive.

Unwritten- I am new to the posting. What does one RA later mean? My wife is a strong woman. Much stronger than me.

GloveOil- Thanks for busting me on no contact. I have the definition now. The business of threatening to leave was I wanted to hide the affair and I felt it was the only choice I had because if I had admitted the truth she would have left me. I felt my choice was lie and bury it which ate my insides up. Tell the truth and she leaves me. Through this she is giving me a chance to rebuild our love that I have damaged. I have also learned it feel so much better not to have anything hidden. We have been talking for hours like it was when we were dating and when we got married and I have really missed it. It has been very positive reinforcement for me. Basically I was a coward. It is so hard for your children to tell you � Daddy, I know you would never do anything to hurt mama or our family.�

I have also learned from the post from NeverGuessed that I get ZERO allowance for regret or mourning. It is all about my wife�s recovery and anything she needs. It is like we were in a car wreck and I see me bloody and all cut up. My wife looks fine on the outside but she has internal injuries that are life threatening and no one can see that on the outside. When I did the lie detector yesterday I felt stressed but she was the one that had to wait and see and wonder who she had been living with. All I had to do was tell the truth. She has a much tougher job. I humbly appreciate any time and future she is giving me.

Littlebit3- It feels so good to tell the truth. My heart feels open. The downside is when I am answering questions to my wife honestly it feels like I am taking a knife and cutting her about an � deep about 5 inches long with the truths I am telling her. I hate seeing her in pain and I hope this is helping her heal. It just doesn�t look like it. I am just trying to listen to her. By my past actions it makes her feel like she was nothing to me. I am hoping by future actions she will feel the affair was nothing and we are more honest, stronger, and in love more than ever before. I am just trying to appreciate every day that it is a gift to have her in my life.

Here is a letter that was shared with me. Helped me understand why my wife needed to hear the truth and have every question answered.


Joseph's Letter;


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

It's a powerful letter!

Any thoughts about it??

Welcome to MB. Please listen to these radio clips with your wife.

They are a BW and WH and the affair was with a family member/best friend of the BWs. Dr. Harley tells them what must be done to recover.
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Then here is their follow up show because the BW is still struggling because they aren't following the program.
Radio clip of the Follow Up Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

It really does heal you to confess. It is a grace bestowed upon you for being honest. It is healing. That is exactly how I feel after confession. I love that feeling. I am glad that you are opening up to strongerme and to everyone here and with such humility and understanding!!!!

You may feel like you are taking a knife to her, but know that the little plastic spoon you are using right now, pales in comparison to the butcher knife you used when you turned out of your marriage to another woman, and used everytime you repeatedly lied to her. But, telling her the truth must be done. We can deal with the truth. We can make the right decisions for ourselves when we know the facts. What happens otherwise, is our minds will spin all kinds "possible stories" attempting to figure it out. What you tell her will give her the facts so she doesn't stay consumed with trying to figure it all out. Boy, if you only knew the scenerios we think up in trying to figure it out. We all need to know where we stand, what is going on to feel safe and secure. Not knowing will allow triggers and fears to rip her heart out over and over again every day. You don't want that for her, so tell her everything.

No matter what the problems in marriage are, you can never turn to another woman to meet your needs. That would never help your marriage get better. Your needs weren't getting met, but strongerme's weren't getting met either. Don't forget that. When you become unhappy in your marriage, it becomes easier to take our spouse for granted or not be as thankful for the good and loving things they do. That is just the beginning..... Now, you know that this was a sign that you both were not doing the right things to create a mutually fulfilling marriage. Now, you can learn how to do that.

It is very difficult to be cheated on. The lies, gaslighing, blameshifting, hurtful things that are said to us, they all hurt us to our core. With you doing those things, how could she possibly feel she was important to you? If someone would do that to you, would you feel like you were important to them? We show the people who are important to us, that they are important to us, by the way we treat them, by the way we value them, cherish them, by being honest with them, by protecting them, by not being selfish or self-serving to them, by making sure our choices never hurt them. We all mess up, make mistakes, but that is not what we are dealing with here. Affairs, continued, repeated deceipt and dishonesty is not a simple mistake. So, now, you can show strongerme by your actions how important she really is to you.

Are you willing to leave your profession in order to make your marriage affair proof?
Your profession has a 10 to 1 female - male ratio.
Have you considered this?

Have you had other emotional or physical affairs?

How is it going, Longhaul? What are your plans for getting out of that work environment and away from the OW? What is the plan for that?

Am I right in coming to the conclusion that this OW has had MANY affairs with married men in your workplace?

Am posting some posts here that I made on your wife's thread.

I will just reiterate what has already been said. Your marriage will not recover if he continues to work at the SAME PLACE as the OW. He will be triggered there and you will be triggered every day he goes there. Recovery will be IMPOSSIBLE. And I am not saying this cavalierly. This is what Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders who has 40 years experience saving marriages from infidelity says.

This has been my experience in the 11 years I have been on this board. I don't know of any marriages that recovered while the affairees lived or worked in close proximity. NONE. But I can point to numerous affairs that resumed because of it.

Here are some of Harley's radio clips and quotes about this issue - I will post this on his thread too:

radio clip of Dr Harley telling hus...ble unless his wife leaves the workplace

here

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Longhaul, wanted to get an update about when you will be leaving the job? How are things going with that?

Not arguing your ratio but at my school it is 12 women and 18 men.

I have not had any other emotional or physical affairs.

I talked to my supervisor today. The OW is in another building. Supervisor said I do not have to go in that building for any reason. If OW comes in my area he told me to call him immediately. Was not formally excused from bi-weekly meetings. I am touring another facility next week with hopes to transfer. Realistically transfer could be two years away by what I was told tonight.

How long was your affair, Sir?

How long did you pursue this women?

How many women in this school did you engage with on any type of flirting?

How long did you use other women, other than your wife, to meet your need for admiration?

When exactly did your affair begin?

When exactly was the last time you had contact (in any shape or form) with this woman?

Why do you think you are safe in that school?

How can you protect your wife while working in that job?

How can you protect your wife from your poor boundaries around other women?

What is your solution?

How do you plan to heal your wife when she knows you engage in inappropriate conversation and ego stroking with women you work with?

How do you plan to heal the "how many years of lies?" you engaged in at this school with women of the opposite sex?

What solution do you have to help your wife get over the "how many years was it exactly" of lies and deceit?

I sure hope it doesn't take another 24 hours to hear a small peep out of you.

You work in a school correct? Is your supervisor also your principal?

Do you normally interchange supervisor and principal with each other?

What kind of relationship do you have with this supervisor?

What gender is the supervisor?

How long was your affair, Sir?
5 years ago - EA started, lasted 9mts, after 5 months EA, turned into PA for 4 mths. 2 yrs. ago PA Kissing only)

How long did you pursue this women?
5 months

How many women in this school did you engage with on any type of flirting?
everybody

How long did you use other women, other than your wife, to meet your need for admiration?
I don't

When exactly did your affair begin?
2008

When exactly was the last time you had contact (in any shape or form) with this woman?
Tuesday - OW called after my wife told OWH. She called from the main number, not an extension or cell phone, so I had no idea it was her. I didn't even know my wife had called OWH.

Why do you think you are safe in that school?
4 people have been told about it and I have told them to call my wife if they see any signs and I will take a lie detector the next day. I feel I'm more accountable there than I would be if I moved 60 miles away and no one knows my story or my wife (that they would have loyalty to).

How can you protect your wife while working in that job?
See above.

How can you protect your wife from your poor boundaries around other women?
EPs

What is your solution?
We are still communicating with each other and do not have a solution yet.

How do you plan to heal your wife when she knows you engage in inappropriate conversation and ego stroking with women you work with?
EPs have been set in place so that it doesn't happen.

How do you plan to heal the "how many years of lies?" you engaged in at this school with women of the opposite sex?
It was 1 woman.

What solution do you have to help your wife get over the "how many years was it exactly" of lies and deceit?
5 years of lies and deceit. Be here every day for her & our children. Stay humble and never forget the pain I've put them through. Use the EPs as building blocks to protect it from ever happening again.

I sure hope it doesn't take another 24 hours to hear a small peep out of you.
I have a job, family, and wife that I'm trying to talk to. I hate the internet. I'm doing this because it helps my wife's healing and I believe MB does have the steps to make a marriage successful.

Dr Harley will advise your wife to separate until you find a solution for complete no contact with the OW. That means not working at the same place where you have had an affair all these years.

The fact that the OW is another building did not stop you from having an affair in the past and it won't stop you in the future. You can walk over and see her anytime. She can come see you any time. There are lots of places to hook up in your typical work site.

Your marriage will never recover until you end all contact for life, even if that means moving to another place. What you are doing will make recovery absolutely impossible.

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you need to make IMMEDIATE plans to leave this job. Your wife is not safe until you do.

I do not know of ANY marriages in 11 years on this board that recovered with the affairees working together. But I know of SCADS of affairs that resumed from working in the same place. Each and every sighting will put you right back to day 1 of recovery and every morning that you leave for work will be another day of hell for your wife.

You work in a school correct? Is your supervisor also your principal?
Yes

Do you normally interchange supervisor and principal with each other?
No - I'm paranoid about posting personal details on an internet site, so I'm trying to be vague, so thanks for bringing attention to it.

What kind of relationship do you have with this supervisor?
The same as any supervisor I've ever had in 25 years of working. He tells me what to do and I do it.

What gender is the supervisor?
Male

Did you tell your principal that you had sex with this OW in your classroom?

Point taken, but I don't want to lose my house or not be able to feed my kids. I understand my wife needs to heal.

Here are the first two steps in Requirements for Recovery. As you can see, you are skipping BOTH steps:


You are attempting to skip the first two steps, which makes recovery absolutely impossible. First you are not ending contact with the OW. You will be going to the same workplace in which your affair occurred. The OW can easily walk to your building and you can easily walk to hers. There was nothing stopping you in the past and there is nothing stopping you now.

The second condition is to "eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible." They are not eliminated. You are still in an environment with women with you have flirted and had an affair.

You can't go onto the next steps until you take Step ONE and Step TWO, Sir. Recovery is impossible.

How can you admit to flirting with everyone yet say you do not use women to meet your emotional need for admiration?

Can you explain why you flirted then?

Can you explain why you feel entitled to work in a place you spent five years engaged in lies and deceit with your wife?

How can you heal your wife yet continue to go to the place you boinked another woman? How does that help heal her?

When do you plan to be honest with your work colleagues?

My concern is that you don't understand the risk. A wayward who is sincere about recovery does not continue to take risks like this.

Do you want to lose your marriage? Will you lose your house when you are divorced? Because that is the choice you are facing now.

Unless you want to get divorced, and lose the house anyway, I would strongly advise you to get out of there and get another job. You cannot have both your job and your marriage.

You don't understand that this is more about YOUR healing than your wife's. You are the alcoholic who is trying to sober up by going to the bar every day. He changes the name of his drinks to "business drinks" and "swears" on a stack of bibles that he won't drink. He always ends up getting drunk. That is what you are doing by working there.

*YOU* won't recover by going back into that environment every day. And neither will your wife. She will never be safe until you are out of there.

Let me put this another way. In order to recover, extraordinary precautions must be taken to avoid another affair. That first step has not been taken.

When you get hit by a car playing chicken, the solution is not to become a "better" chicken player, but to get your butt out of the road.

The fact that you believe you can still play chicken without getting hit again tells me you don't GET the risks here. That comes at your wife's expense and she would be crazy to tolerate it. Extraordinary precautions are not negotiable and I can understand that you might not see the risk, but I know she does.

Well. You know that you are going to see her.
What if she parks next to you?
What if there is a fire alarm and the classes need to evacuate.
It isn't like you are on a military base with 20,000 coworkers and she is hard to find.
She's probably a 2 minute walk from your classroom

Not that it makes any difference because he can walk over and see her anytime, [and vice versa] but he still plans on seeing her at bi-weekly meetings. He is not in the least bit serious about establishing extraordinary precautions.

Do you regret your adulterous behavior?
Are you willing to do whatever it takes to save your marriage and win your wife's heart back?

I cannot imagine how miserable this poor woman must be knowing that you are seeing your affair partner daily.
You've already shown that you can't be trusted before the affair.
Certainly not post affair.

You are in the education system and the education system has increased security and safety nationwide in response to violence. When I was in high school my friends had guns in their pickup trucks and would go hunting after school. Today a student would be arrested. Procedures changed in order to maintain safety.
In your case, you're like the guy that has a record of harming people (your wife and family) and yet expect the same lax safety measures to remain in effect after the crime.

Do you realize how insane your reasoning to work together sounds?

Well, that sounds like an awfully thin veil of protection for your wife's emotional security. Two years? YGBFKM, right? If you stay there two years, the info you're trying to hide will come out in divorce court, and you'll be living alone with a big stack of lawyer bills.

Like I told ya a couple of days ago, the best action you can take is getting out of that work location on a short-term glide-path. Because every day you spend there is like a knife being stuck into your wife's mind. That makes it hard for her to heal & hard to heal your marriage. It makes it harder for her to feel emotionally safe around you. After 5 years of deceit, you owe her at least that, don't you?

Please think about it. Isn't it time she saw the guy she saw in you when you married her? A guy who'd lay it all on the line for her? That's the guy she needs to see from you now.

It's easy to buy a motorcycle & be a middle-aged, credit-card badass. However, risking your career to save your relationship with the woman who thought your ring was worth keeping (and who still hasn't sicked a lawyer on you yet although she has every right to) -- now that takes guts. It's a little harder... and a lot more important & consequential for your life from here on out.

I wouldn't even do a short term glide path.
I think you should just quit.
Call your union. Call the school board. Explain it in person.
Tell them you need to save your marriage.

And go work at McDonald's if necessary until you get another Job.

This is a very serious issue sir.
And you are treating it like a decision on switching insurance companies when your policy expires.
You need to do this now

An observation:

Last contact - last Tuesday. The drama of this affair continues. No recovery in sight for this couple yet. And without no contact for life, no recovery for the forseeable future.

But the students will be happy to know there teacher will still be there. Don't let them down even at the expense of the family.

AM

I think others are covering the job situation well enough that I dodn't need to add anything....

I will say this.... They are correct!


I would like to discuss the question in quotes though.

You see, I was a great gaslighter. I came up with plenty of excuses to only do what I wanted to do....
My reasons were always valid too. (at least to me they were)

Your reason to not post was the same as mine.

I was paranoid that some one would out me by recognizing my story.
That my business would suffer, that my reputation would be damaged.
That my ability to provide for my family would diminish.
Etc. Etc. Etc.....

Sound familiar?

Ya, I thought so.

Trouble is, I should have considered all that before I committed the act of adultery. And yes, you should have too.

But we never did, did we!

NO!


So what now?

Unless you tell us your home address and tell us your real name, no one knows who you are.
And the reality is, no one on this anonymous forum really even care who you are in real life...

HOWEVER

We do care about your marriage!
We want to see your marriage not only survive, but succeed!
We will be honest and help you without ever knowing who you are.

You can post safely without disclosing too much person info.

So please don't use that as an excuse to avoid having difficult dialog with us.

Yes it's difficult! And Hard! But It's An Investment!

Are you willing to invest in this with people that have walked through the process of recovery? That have faced the fire and walked through it?
Or are you going to do what I did the first time? I found excuses and found freinds IRL that supported my whinning about how ridiculous MB was.

The second time around I was all in and as a result, MB saved my marriage, my family and my life.

I wanted to mention something.

Our success is directly attributable to leaping into the coaching/counseling with the Harley's, followed up with the MB Weekend Seminar.

The weekend has turned into the online course now, but the materials are the same.

They helped us resolve the difficult issues quickly without muddying up the waters with issues from our childhoods....
They helped us understand that our childhood issues won't help us with our current problems in any way. We were afterall, dealing with a marriage in crisis not a childhood in crisis.

I pray you take the fastest road to recovery and call the coaching center for an appointment today.
I promise, you'll be amazed with their approach!

LOnghaul is long gone

Just in case "Mr Educator of the year" is still reading .....

There is a link you might care to read.

Another unfaithful "teacher of the year" who came before you !

The outcome?

Oh gosh. You know, I'd forgotten all about that post, I hadn't read it in so long.

That guy sure was foul.

LH,

How are things?

My wife had 3 conditions - no alchohol, sell the motorcycle, and quit my job.

Last day on the job was 12/19. I've haven't drank any alchohol since November. Motorcycle is going on Craigslist this week.

UA - we've been spending 15-20 hours a week

Made a list of recreational activities last night and worked on schedule for ucoming week tonight.

Setbacks have been, my mother is not supporting the program. Our daughters are having a tough time.

I want to make a list of expectations for my mother to support our recovery. Wife is handling discipline and talks with the girls. I am focusing on love bank deposits with the girls.

This has been a day-by-day process.

My concerns are being able to find another job in this economy, losing our house, and being able to set a budget when we still haven't had "extra" money at the end of the month, even with 2 incomes.

I am the happiest when I'm spending one-on-one time with my wife. It is good when my girls smile and laugh in the family environment.

I'm trying to prepare for this marathon, but there are a lot of bad habits that have got to be overcome. It is a monitor-and-adjust process.

My worst worry is that my wife is going to draw the line when I'm at a low point. I want to support my wife through the positives and negatives and be united with her. Any suggestions on how to control my reaction to her when she draws a line, when emotions are high on both sides?

My promise to my wife was;

"I'll do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes"

In order to pull this off, I had to learn all about care (meeting needs) and protection (eliminating MY love busters). This was a process, not an event,,,,, or as you've said it's a marathon, not a short distance sprint.....

Be very patient with your bride, she has been through a great deal of trauma.


Longhaul, You've done a great deal of the tough work already, now comes the consistency that follows the initial promises you've made. I know you can do this and I'm certain you can help lead the recovery following the MB Online Course, even when your wife hits low points. Stay the course!

As a safety valve, I had several men that I could contact during my low points that all kept me on track. You already have at least one person you can contact when the need does arise....

Longhaul, the more attention you pay to what she tells you is bothering her, the faster and easier this will be. She can help you guide your marriage out of this terrible place. You have done a lot of really good things so far, so just keep it up.

Pretend like you are the doctor and she is the patient. You are rendering aide to your patient. Listen to her symptoms and ask her lots of questions so you will know how to help her in the best, most efficient way.

Her complaints are a good thing, not a bad thing. They give you an opportunity for improvement. And the faster your marriage is improved, the sooner you can return to a happy, fulfilled marriage.. It is not fun to get a complaint, but the alternative would be a disaster. It is like getting a NSF notice from the bank. No fun to get them, but they give you a chance to correct your course.


That will go a long way in repairing the damage in your marriage. By doing this, you demonstrate protection and love to your wife. Good job!

Whatever you do, don't argue with her! I think if you change your view of her complaints you won't have such a bad reaction. Her complaints are a good thing, not a bad thing. A complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage and an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage. They are the path to a happy marriage.

My concerns are being able to find another job in this economy, losing our house, and being able to set a budget when we still haven't had "extra" money at the end of the month, even with 2 incomes.

My friend, you have a long row to hoe, very little doubt about it.

The good news is that right now you still have a woman who wants to help you return to the man of integrity and honor that you once were. And you also have some colleagues here who will help you earn that standing.

Let's pick your immediate issue:

Any suggestions on how to control my reaction to her when she draws a line, when emotions are high on both sides?

That's start with what likely WON'T work. Immediately (reflexively?) getting defensive and saying "No" is probably not your best ploy. Storming away is also not a suggested response.

The BEST response would be to say "Yes, dear, if that is necessary." But for the moment, we will assume that such a response would seem.....foreign, and probably unnatural. So your best response might be to LISTEN, and immediately answer, "Give me an hour to think about that, and we'll discuss it then." And do it - one hour later, with the understanding that what she needs, she needs.

Of course, if you wanted to get ahead of this battle that you and she are in TOGETHER, you should invest a couple hours HERE, asking the simple question, "What can I do to ensure that my BW is assured of the changes I have made to my life and my commitment to our marriage." The folks here would be happy to give you the protective actions you should be taking, so you could poresent them to HER before she has to ask them of YOU!

Stick around, dude. The folks here are not all that awful.

And as a start, let me remind you of something:

My concerns are being able to find another job in this economy, losing our house, and being able to set a budget when we still haven't had "extra" money at the end of the month, even with 2 incomes.

Do you not understand that those same agonies are part of her life right now as well, and she did nothing to deserve it?

I hope to see you here tomorrow.

LongHaul, first remember that what you're doing is hard. Not that you're a failure at it. It just takes time to learn to do things differently (meaning: better) than the way you'd gotten accustomed to doing them.

You've done some hard things -- things I never had to do. I never had to leave my job. My wife & I had exposed the affair to a dozen people within the first month, but none of them were our parents or our kids. I'd done a no-contact letter, but it wasn't a perfect one. The first marriage counselor we got connected with just happened to give us Surviving An Affair as our main text. My point with all this is, I was more lucky than "good" in a lotta ways. In other words, I wasn't good enough on my own. Almost no WS is at the outset. Some of the action steps that are being recommended to you, it took me months to appreciate the importance of doing.

A few ideas, in case they might be worth anything to ya:

(1) Do a sound-check. First, every time you're talking with your wife, first tap yourself on the chest as a reminder to step outside yourself & listen to yourself the way others might hear you. In our second session, the counselor told me that the way I was talking to my wife in our session was "intimidating." And the thing was, I hadn't even realized it! I was expressing some perfectly valid thoughts, but because of my tone of voice & my body language, my wife was clamming up, because I was coming off sounding like some kind of aggressive thug, even though that wasn't my intent at all. If your voice gets raised, then this can cause emotions to run "high." A takeaway for me was that it's better just never to raise your voice. That's a non-moving goal line with no guesswork involved for you. Just don't raise your voice with her, ever, and you'll never have to worry about sounding "heated." In MarriageBuilders terms, raising your voice is a love-buster. Tap yourself on the chest every time & just don't go there.

And if she raises her voice? Well, she should try not to, but she's human, too, and if she does, you just look her in the eye & take it with a gracious humility.

(2) Take the lead. If you're worried about how you react to her drawing lines, one way to deal with this is to get out in front of things, by drawing lines yourself, as well as by asking her about things you could do for her, or do better, including asking her about lines she thinks need to be drawn. If you mom or someone else isn't being properly supportive of your wife, then before you respond, you at least do a compass-check by consulting with StrongerMe. If someone denigrates your wife, then you don't even need to do a compass check -- you just don't put up with that kind of talk at all, and you make clear to everyone in your circle that there's no daylight between you & StrongerMe. The way you be united with her is, you BE united with her in this way. In MarriageBuilders terms, this is following the Rule of Protection.

(3) Keep scheduling your UA time. This is gonna continue to be a challenge for you guys, 'cuz of the kids, the job-search, etc. It sounds like you've been doing pretty well at this. It's important that you continue to schedule your time together so it doesn't slip. Within this, it's also a very good idea (for both of you) to schedule the times when you're going to talk about unpleasant or difficult issues, such as those having to do with the affair. (I know it's said that once the facts of the affair are established to the betrayed spouse's satisfaction, then the affair shouldn't be brought up after that. Well, thing is, a betrayed spouse doesn't necessarily know right away what info she needs to know. Sometimes it takes weeks or months for her even to figure out all the questions she wants to ask, and it's likely that she won't have figured them all out at once. If there was 'trickle-truth,' then this can drag things out.) If she wants to discuss his stuff, you guys should agree to set aside some time, so that neither of you feel "ambushed" by having the conversation go there unexpectedly. When either spouse feels "ambushed" during a conversation, that can get the emotions running high. And there should be a scheduled cut-off point, so that talk of the affair doesn't dominate your UA time -- because most of the UA time should be "fun" time when you can reconnect with one another & meet each other's emotional needs.

LongHaul, I wanted to know that my wife wasn't going to decide to cut me loose & cut her losses. I wanted to know that the work I put in would be rewarded with her sticking by me, and the funny thing was, I wanted to know it even though I hadn't finished doing the work. I was asking for certainty from a woman who was on the wild roller-coaster of emotional swings. One day she'd be feeling strong, and the next, she'd be wanting to curl up in a ball & sob at what had happened to her husband, to her marriage, to her. She didn't know how she was feeling from hour to hour, and there I was, asking to know how she'd feel in 6 months. 'Nuff said on that.

Our marriage counselor told me to imagine myself hacking through a dense jungle to get to my wife. In the scenario, I didn't know exactly where she was - I could hear her, but I couldn't see her. I didn't know how far I'd have to hack, and I wasn't 100% sure she'd be there, but I had to keep swinging the machete til my hands were blistered & bleeding, and I just had to keep cutting & slogging, day by day, week by week. And you need to trust that that effort -- sticking to your EPs, attending to her needs -- will be worth it. Or think of a wide receiver in football: The QB throws the ball before the receiver even makes the break in his route, and so the receiver has to run a precisely timed route & make his break with the ball already in the air behind him, on the way to the reception point -- he has to trust that when he turns around, his QB will have put the ball right on the spot so the the ball will be there with room for him to catch it. On every play. Through a whole grueling season.

You have to trust her the same way -- every play, every day. You want to re-earn trust, so you've gotta be willing to give her your full trust. You've got to trust that she won't draw any lines that you can't meet.

You guys are doing lots of good things. Take encouragement from this.

LH - please consider some strong action with your mother that says her relationship with you and her grandchildren are in jeopardy if she persists in her attitude toward your wife and your actions to protect her.

She has NO RIGHT to intrude into your marriage the way she is right now and strong boundaries set by you will only endear you to your wife, which she needs, and you also need.

The relief that your consistent enforcement, including, if needed, ZERO contact between you, your extended family and your most important family until Mom comes around will be amazing.

This is one small action you could take today to seriously impact your recovery for the positive!

My wife and kids haven't seen my parents in over two weeks. I am going to have a sit down with them on Thursday or Friday of this week. Thanks for your input.

Just to let everyone know thanks for your inputs. When we first started posting, some of the post made me mad. As I go back through and reread it is like reading something different. My wife says my frame of mind is different. I am just trying to listen to her and we monitor and adjust as we go through everyday. I am still not comfortable with posting but I am doing it for her healing and I am hoping that it will get more comfortable each time I post. I really appreciate everyone that is trying to help us.

Longhaul, that is the perfect approach and I promise it will make your road much easier. That is a GREAT SIGN that your wife already sees a difference. That means you are making progress.

I hope you do continue to read and post. This is not going to easy for you or your wife and there are alot of folks here who will be glad to help. We are all in your corner, hoping for the best.

Very good news

LongHaul, it is nice to see you posting here. Please know that the people here have been where you are, and they have been helping many people for a long time, so their expertise and guidance will help you and your marriage more than you could imagine. I know it is "odd" to post to a forum of strangers, but this one is just different. Everyone here has/had marriage problems and genuinely want to help others. I hope you can get comfortable just opening up and letting MelodyLane, Glove Oil and the others help. It is a common sense, no excuses, completely honest and humbly open way, and it works!!! Happy New year to you and your family.

I sat down with my wife tonight and said I was going to write about what we were doing for recovery on Marriage Builders to my mother.

In this letter was going to be the following:
Three things I am to do from my wife:
Quit my job: Done 19th of December.
Motorcycle is for sale with no intentions of every buying another one or my wife every riding with me again. Never to bring up again. My wife will decide if we ever talk about it again.
No alcohol: Done since November
Have the EP�s in place that I will go by the rest of my life because I have shown I need them because of my infidelity. From learning in the MB program, all couples need to have them so they have precautions to keep a healthy marriage.

15- 20 hours a week with my wife one on one.- Have been doing weekly
Our family will go to church.- Have been doing for a month

Daily Family devotion after our girls do their bedtime routines. - Started last night.

Recreational companionship each week.- Filled out our Recreational Companionship form and have goals set.

Doing the MB online program weekly. We have a coach that we are meeting with and setting goals weekly.

Posting on the forum. � Hate it but I do it for my wife. Made a negative comment about it last night then apologized. I do not apologize unless I am wrong. Made a post. Wasn�t so bad and I am doing it again.

We have planned a weekend vacation with my wife and 2 girls this weekend. Everybody will have each others undivided attention.

I need my mother and father to support this if they want us to recover. I do not want my mother to say anything positive or negative about my wife. I do not want my mother to have any communication with my wife in anyway. The best way they can support us is to have no contact and pray that we follow the MB program and recover our marriage.

As for my daughters, they saw my mother pointing her finger in my wife�s face out the window. My youngest went out the back door and was listening to them arguing outside at the car. My children saw this. This is not something that has been fabricated or twisted by my wife. They are upset and want an apology from my mother to them and my wife. I do too.

I drove up at the end of this, When I got out of the car, my wife walked in the my mother told me. �This is your family and you need to do what you need for them. I am staying out of it.� My mother hasn�t had any contact since then. This has been two weeks.

I understand the goal line changes for us. I feel everything is going good and my wife draws a box where I am standing. She tells me this in �Not good enough for her.� I do not feel I can move forward, left, right or backwards. I have never done well on ultimatums but because of the pain I have caused my family I am trying to do what we need for recovery.

My wife and I are going to talk this over tonight and have joint agreement before anything is done.
Please read her post because there are two sides to every story.

My statement and question to my wife is: I am going to talk to my parents and communicate this. This is what we need and expect from them. I do not care if anybody supports MB. I do. I want to work through positives and negatives with her, hand in hand, united against any obstacles. I truly feel it is the only way we are going to have recovery or I would be doing it. Can you please not have a reaction to where it seems there is an ultimatum immediately? I don�t care if my mother supports is or not. I am doing MB. We have enough to be working on in our own house without having to go to another house and tell them. I am and will take the letter tomorrow and sit down with my parents and tell them this is what we need.

My question to you all is: What do I need to do in addition or deletions of this for my wife to recover? One of my problems with posting is it seems like I should be asking my wife this but she wants me to post. Thanks again for any input.

Longhaul, I understand your trepidation in posting. My ...(dare I say it) FWH, Kiss, did not like posting for some time. But now understands the need for him to do so and my need for him to post here.

Think of it this way. Your BW is a rookie cop on a dark street dealing with a situation unknown to her. Isn't fair to accept that she needs some seasoned cops around to back her up?

I know I feel a lot better knowing that Kiss has people who will help him help me.

Longhaul, I applaud your intent, but I think this agenda misses the point. What is missing here is a request for some simple basic respect and support for your marriage. Your mother has not shown that so far. I don't believe giving her such a list addresses that issue at all and actually serves as a distraction from the real problem.

Your mother has caused enormous harm to your wife and was actively striving to prevent the recovery of your marriage. She has blamed your wife and even tried to enlist your own children against her. Your wife is devastated at the damage she has inflicted. Your mother has made a very traumatic time all that much harder with her negative, toxic influence.

When someone behaves in such a destructive, cruel manner, in my opinion, an apology is warranted.

While you can't force someone to make a sincere apology against her will, it would go a long way if you insisted your mother apologize.

Telling her how much damage she caused and asking her to show some respect by apologizing to your wife and daughters will teach her to be more careful about what she says in the future.

Standing up for your wife when your mother bullies her is your job as a husband and a father. THAT is what your wife needs to see. She needs to see that you won't tolerate your mother bullying her anymore. If you do that, I predict your mother will watch her mouth and your wife and daughters will relax around her. And that is what you want, don't you?

Your mother was out of line, LongHaul. Don't let her do this to your wife again. Take care of your wife first.

Glad you're here, LH, even if it seems awkward at first. You will likely receive some few comments that don't seem to align with either the MB Program, or what your wife would want frrom you. The most successful posters here learn to just file those away without comment and spend more time with what appear to be the more germane notes. You'll know who those balanced folks are: HPB, GO, ML, NG(on even-numbered days!)

Let me ask you a key question:

What are your wife's key ENs? and what was the vintage of that survey? There is usually a "use by" date on that information, so if there is any doubt ask her to run the ENQ again.

You are making the correct choice by drawing the protective marital screen with your Mother on the outside if her history with you wife (and daughters) is so tainted. When your marital union is a lot better grounded, there may come a time when you and your wife might want to consider an approach to Mom, but it would have to be on terms that are POJA'd and enforced.

Very glad you're here, dude.

But you can move forward with her GUIDANCE. This is why I said previously that it is a good thing that she is continually telling you what she needs. What she needs today might not be what she needs tomorrow and vice versa. How will you know if she doesn't tell you so you can do a course correction?

But you need to know this so you can do the BEST JOB POSSIBLE of healing your wife. And that is what you want, right? The faster she heals, the faster your life can become happy and fulfilled.

Her complaints are a good thing because they guide you out of the ICU.

Your wife has been through holy unmitigated hell, my friend. This is much, much worse than just an affair. This is YEARS of lies and deceit on top of an affair. It is like her life for the past few years has all been a lie. The kaleidoscope shifted on her past. That is a devastating shock.

It is not going to be easy getting through this, but you can make it much easier if you stop fighting with her and gladly and eagerly render aide to her. Don't add insult to injury by objecting to every thing. Tell her thank you for telling me what I need to do. And then DO IT.

Life will be much easier if you just stop fighting it and listen to what she needs to heal.

Lonhaul

I had a very similar situation with my own mother (blaming me for my WH affair) and my MIL (completely justified her sons actions and tried to blame the OW, me, the kids and anything else but her son for his bad choices).

My FWH cleared this up pretty quickly, he simply told his mother that he does not want to have anything to do with anyone who does not fully support our marriage and family. He did t need to explain himself and he didn't need to explain MB or even give her information on our plan for recovery, that was our business.

I have to be honest I find your list of explanation to your mum quite weak and it seams to give the impression over and over again that your writing it under duress and your wife is holding a gun to your head.
Your mother is a bully and an ignorant one at that so you need to be firm and straight to the point with her.

I cleaned up my side of the street and cut my mother off, haven't seen or spoken to her for over 4 years. My marriage is thriving because we choose to only have people who love and support our marriage. I only wish you can get to the place where you are as happy as we are.

Ps. My MIL did stop her behaviour and has been great with supporting our marriage since the day my FWH grew a pair and stood up for our marriage.

Longhaul,

Things will get better as you continue with MB. In our early recovery, my H often expressed that he could not seem to do enough to meet my needs. My needs were huge at the time.

Your wife, like all wives, wants to know that she is the number one thing in your life, above all others things to include job, family members, geographic location, etc, etc. At the same time, you should be the most important thing in your wife's life. Out of that comes the promises of care and protection.


"I do not want my mother to say anything positive or negative about my wife." Why would you not want your moter to say anything positive about your wife? That seems like a curious thing.

Take a look at the "Lovebuster's" book chapter about resolving conflicts over friends and familymembers. It points out that your spouse is your most important friend and family member. Your mother has done quite a bit of damage here. You and Strongerme need to jointly agree on a plan of how to deal with it.

Hopefully, you are finding the MB member posts as helpful and not hurtful.

AM

"I do not want my mother to say anything positive or negative about my wife." Why would you not want your moter to say anything positive about your wife? That seems like a curious thing.


When she was saying something positive before the no contact, she was sugar coating it and you could tell it wasn't genuine. It would just hurt my wife more. It is best that they don't talk at all for a while.

Longhaul, is your mother aware of how deeply she has hurt your wife?

Thanks for your inputs. I just keep reading them over and over. I seem to pick up more information each time I read them. I feel StrongerMe and me ended on a positive note tonight after we finally talked. We will see what tomorrow holds. It has been a day by day process.

Longhaul, is your mother aware of how deeply she has hurt your wife?


I have told my mother that StongerMe went to her before her own mother to tell about the affair. My moms response was what was going on when this happened. I explained to my mother no matter what was going on. StrongerMe didn't deserve this affair that I had caused. This is my fault and my job to help StrongerMe heal and for us to recover. I told her she was devistated by my mothers reaction. We have a long way to go but I feel positive that tonights arguement ended in me posting for 1 hr. and 20 min. This wasn't even and option for me a few days ago. I type slow. We went back to bed and talked some more and it seemed to be peaceful.

LH - good for you standing up to your mother. But please do not give her the details about what you are doing. She has not earned the right to have that much (or any) information about what you are or are not doing.

I want to "ditto" the others who have said the only thing your mother needs to hear from you is that you require her respect and courtesy, and sincere apology, when you are ready to give her a chance to have contact again on a test basis. But for now she has not earned that chance and you will determine when and if she gets a chance again. And that no contact extends to her grandchildren whom she offended by abusing their mother.

She needs to not know about marriage builders. She needs to NOT know anything but that she is relegated to the proverbial dog house for permanent residence in your lives, until such time as she grows some manners.

Longhaul, the 15-20 hours a week, what does this look like for the next week, and what will you be doing during that time?

LongHaul, for someone who didn't want to post here, you are doing absolutely amazing. It is really wonderful to read your sincere, loving and VERY humble words!! Thank you for opening up and sharing. I can almost "see" your growth and can tell you are learning so much. Right now, this is a beautiful gift you are giving StrongerMe and your family.

But please do not give her the details about what you are doing. She has not earned the right to have that much (or any) information about what you are or are not doing.

This was what I was doing. I don't care what other people think. I truly feel MB is the way to recovery and whether or not my mother agreed or disagreed we are still doing it. I was doing the letter so nothing could be misconstrued on what was said. Where we could say that is not what was said. Read the paper was what I was going to tell her.

I �feel� my wife put me in a box and said this wasn�t good enough and do this now. I also �feel� when things are done that I get. �You should have had a different attitude when you did it.�

I am sorry. This is all new to me. I am trying to give 100%. Who likes to clean up the kitchen? Because I didn�t smile and jump when I did it doesn�t mean the kitchen didn�t get cleaned up. Did I like it? No. Was I happier once the kitchen was cleaned up? Yes.

Am I happy my mother has done this? Am I happy my mother has caused a huge Love Bank withdrawal at this house? No, Will I smile and jump when I am cleaning this up. No, Will I be happier once we have nothing being added to our list because we have enough to be working on. Yes, Yes, Yes.

I am ready for recovery and I am ready to do whatever it takes to get these things behind us so we can start recovery.
This is all I know right now:
Spend 15 to 20 hours a week with my wife.
Stay in the workbooks and make MB a priority.
Make sure our girls are getting enough time with us that this is not compounding any more than it already has on them.
Do a family devotion every night.

We both have had issues of our takers coming out for us to get what we want. I feel this was all started by my actions of infidelity and untruths. I can monitor and adjust what my taker is doing. Have checks and balances in place so that when this happens we will have a solution because of the MB program. Have 15 to 20 hrs. a week discussing all this with my wife.

I just want to love my wife, do whatever it takes for her to heal and her receive the love. I want my family united.
I do not sugar coat what I put on here. I do this for my wife�s healing. It does give me a sense of calming as I type. I am hoping it is healing my wife as well as me. I need to hear from you all that have made it through this. I am a goals based person and MB�s has shown if you stick with the program you will recover your marriage.

This is true!

When you keep this perspective it allows you to continue to tend to your wife's injuries.




You're on the right track, just keep up the good work.

The most important part is your perspective.

You can tend to someones wounds by throwing them a band aid and walking away
or
You can stay and apply ointment, smile, put the band aid on for them and ask if they need anything else.

Of course both scenarios allow for meeting the need of getting a band aid.... but the second scenario is what you'll have to practice every time your wife is triggering.

Again,
It's all about your perspective.....

Stay the course!

Here is a typical scenario this afternoon:

Our children got home today. They decompressed about their day and chilled doing their thing for about 45 min. to an hr. We talked with our 14 yr. old for about 20 min.

My wife�s lower back has been bothering her today. External things I do a decent job with. I kept her comfortable today with heating pad and ice. Heated up lunch for her and let her rest.

I thought she would feel better if she walked down the street and back. I would say it would be 100 yds. Total. She told me it was cold. I would say it is 40 to 50 degrees. So I don�t disagree.

I told her I would get her coat.
She didn�t like her pants.
I offered to get her more pants.
I offered to and went to get my coat.
She said she would walk in the house.
I just wanted to walk out the street and back before it got dark with my wife and kids. It will also help my wife with her lower back to walk.
Then my oldest says �I don�t want to walk outside.�
I say �OK� and walk to the basement.
My youngest says � Why does everything always have to be an argument?�

After this my wife and I have a sit down. I am told I am not following the policy of joint agreement. She did not enthusiastically agree to walk with me down the street. I am bullying her.
My problem is I am just wanting to walk with my family down the street and back. Recreational activity

I am asking for any solutions to what I should have done different. Am I bullying her?

I would ask her how she would feel about taking a walk with you. She is either enthusiastic about it or not. If she doesn't want to do that, then that is fine. You don't want her to agree to things she doesn't want to do. Recreational activities should be things you BOTH enjoy and should be decided together.

We sat down and talked about it again. I agree with what you posted and she told me the same thing. We have made our recreational survey and are agreeing to do those activities together on a schedule but not spontaneously. We are doing a weekend out of town with each other and our girls. I am a work in progress. Thanks again for your direction.

Don't get discouraged, LongHaul. Expressing needs & POJA take practice. For both spouses. The best you can do is to try to be as clear as possible, and to try to make your suggestions in such a way that they elicit answers that are as clear as possible.

The following is made-up, 'cuz I obviously wasn't there & don't know how your conversation went down, but think about the subtle differences:

Not ideal:
Hubs: "How about we go for a walk?" (It's a suggestion by you. Not all that clear how wedded you are to the idea, though.)
Wife: "It's cold outside." (Oh, crap. It's not a clear answer, it's a weather report, and doesn't really get straight to the question of whether she's firmly decided against going; and so maybe you feel led to present ideas that will address the coldness that she mentioned, or the pants that she's wearing, when she really just might not feel like going.)

Better:
Hubs: "Would you like to go for a walk?" (Now you're asking her what she wants to do.)
Wife: "Yes, I would, if only it weren't so cold outside." (It's a little clearer this way that she just doesn't feel like walking right now, no matter how warmly or well she's dressed, and so maybe you won't press the issue too much.)

Best:
Hubs: "I'd like to go for a walk with you. Would you like to go?" (This asks her what she would prefer to do, and also communicates more directly that you want her to walk with you -- thereby making your RC interest clearer to her.)
Wife: "No, I don't feel like walking today, it's just too cold for me. Is there something else we could do now?" (This shoots down your idea, but politely and clearly, and moves the conversation forward to other possibilities for other things that you might be able to agree on doing.)

Make any sense?

You might be thinking, heck, that's an awful lot of thinking to have to put into a silly question of whether she'll take a walk with me; but as I said, with practice, it gets easier & becomes more second-nature. We need to be be sensitive to our spouses' needs & wishes, but we also need to be clear in communicating our own needs & wishes, so that there's not so much guesswork in the conversation.

Hang in there.

Can't speak for LH but I learned something! BTW LH I'm rooting for a good recovery of your marriage!

This does make sense and your training is very helpful. I don't mind putting in the extra work on these small conversations because I feel it is where I have been missing the mark.

I would have liked to take a walk with my wife and kids.
We didn't take a walk and everybody was having love bank withdrawals.

By these things I am learning on the forum to change my behavior. We will not take a walk and there will not be any Love Bank withdrawals.

We are leaving today on the weekend get away with the family. I will use this and hopefully walk with my family and everybody is making love bank deposits.

My wife is telling me these things and it supports it when you all are saying the same thing. I know I should only need to hear it from my wife but the reality is I need it from her and this forum. My goal will be to stay by her side and listen better.

gloveOil, things like this are what I would love to learn. Where did you learn them from? The books have not helped much in this area.

Luvsdavid, this is all covered in the policy of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement. In his 3rd example, LHs wife is honest about her feelings about the walk. She then opens negotiations by asking for other suggestions. (POJA) If you have trouble applying the principles to specific situations, you would really benefit from the radio show. Dr Harley applies the principles to specific situations.

"We are leaving today on the weekend get away with the family. I will use this and hopefully walk with my family and everybody is making love bank deposits. "

You are catching on, and i wanted to encourage you. You are starting to see how some of your behavior patterns have caused you problems. this was all a real eye opener for me too.

I wanted to address this comment, though. Be sure to do things with your wife about which she is enthusiastic. If she is not enthusiastic about going for a walk, then negotiate with her to find something you BOTH like. And I don't mean getting a grudging agreement, because those are a disaster.

You said you are taking your daughters. Are you and your wife getting in 15-20 hours ALONE each week?

LuvsDavid, I don't think I read it anywhere, just pieced the idea together from post-mortems on some frustrating conversations I had at times with Trust_Will_Come (where, for example, she'd ask me a question, and I'd respond not with an answer but with a weather report, etc.)

I think that realizing the need to practice clear communication is just a logical extension of some key MarriageBuilders concepts. Meeting needs & avoiding lovebusters is sound strategy, if you will. Precise communication between spouses is a matter of effective tactics.

If you accept how important it is to meet ENs, then an implication of this is that each spouse needs to know what the other spouse's ENs are; otherwise, how can the needs be met? And to add another layer, just to drive ya nuts: Which need is my spouse seeking to have met at a given time? If I say I want to go on a run with her, and she enthusiastically agrees to go, that still doesn't necessarily mean we're on the same page as one another re: meeting needs! Maybe I'm interested in the run chiefly for the recreational companionship, but maybe she's interested chiefly for the intimate conversation that could occur if we run at a measured pace. Hmmm... Throw in a couple of assumptions, and some expectations go unmet because they weren't clearly communicated and/or understood in advance, and what could've been a real nice time turns into the train-wreck-du-jour if you're not careful.

How are you gonna be sure that you know what your spouse's ENs are, and how are you gonna be sure he/she knows what yours are, and which ones are foremost at any given time? Obviously, the ENQ, which has been carefuly thought-out, is the best tool to establish one another's EN "baselines."

However, once you get away from the worksheet & put down the clipboard and you're moving through day-to-day life, it's easy to get sloppy & fall into lazy conversational habits. I've got no magic bullet for that. Remembering to think about how your words might be sounding to the other person, and how the other persom might interpret them, is a tactical skill that's best honed simply through constant, deliberate practice.

Another way to look at it is through the lens of avoiding lovebusters. If you ask me whether I want to do something outside, and I respond by telling you that it's 38 degrees (which you probably already know because your smartphone tells you so), that falls under the category of annoying habits, if I do it often enough. Or, if I assume in advance that you won't want to do something together, and so I don't even ask or invite you to join me, then if I'm mistaken in my assumption (or possibly even if my assumption is correct), the mere act of assuming can be a disrespectful judgment on my part, because I'll have judged (or misjudged) how you'd feel about something, without showing you the basic respect to ask you about your feelings. And if you're not clear (maybe read: radically honest) in expressing yourself, you can tempt your spouse into making assumptions.

I'm sure lots of experts have probably delved into the topic of communications in marriage, so I'm sure there's stuff you could read. (If Willard Harley has written anything on it, I trust BrainHurts will be along with a link.) But the practice is so important! My wife & I did a small-group Bible study focued on "communication in marriage." (I still have the book, it's sitting behind me on the den bookshelves.) What would ya think if I told you that was 4 years before my affair? Just goes to show that if you don't keep up with good communications habits, it's possible to slip a long way.

Practice. Train yourselves. Always.

GloveOil,

My wife texted me to look at this thread and now I know why.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. I wish I had read it yesterday before I did almost the exact same conversation with my wife (different topic, different situation, but same lousy confusing communication). Fortunately, after the stuff hit the fan, my wife and I sat and talked out how we could have improved our conversation and came up with something VERY similar to what you came up with for "best." It took us an hour to step through where all of the breakdowns were (just like this thread has pointed out), but with MB principles we were able to figure out the "best" way to communicate. So it's good to see you spell it out - it tells me that I'm not the only person in the world with screwed up communication. And it shows me that with practice - my W and I can figure out how to communicate effectively - and teach our children in the process.

Even if I hadn't been a wayward spouse, my poor communication skills were killing our marriage from the get-go. I wish we would have had MB 20 years ago. Anyway... Thanks 1,000,000!!!

LongHaul,
We are POUNDING into our conversations the simple phrase: "How would you feel about __________." It's a brilliant tool by Dr. H because it isn't demanding and it takes your spouses FEELINGS into account. Which is what it's all about! It's still unnatural for me, but I usually catch myself and redo mid-sentence. My W appreciates the effort even if I fumble... as long as I recover.

Thanks, 1HG.
Along this theme (lest any be led astray), I just want to be real clear here: Again, good/clear communication is a tactic. It isn't the strategic goal; and while lack of clear communication can torpedo things, clear communication by itself won't necessarily save or improve a marriage. (Maybe I should say, there's a difference between "good" communication and "clear" communication. For example, it's possible to very clearly communicate selfish demands. If we do so, maybe we've been clear, but it isn't good!) The key is for the communication to be directed toward & in support of the larger goal of meeting ENs & avoiding LBs, the things that are necessary to grow & maintain a high love-bank balance.

I just listened to a MB Radio blurb on this very topic:

Caring for your spouse

Excellent show for you and your BW to listen to about POJA.

Radio clip on Trouble with POJA
Segment #2
Segment #3

Radio Clip of Followup Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

Tell us what you think.

Doing the online program. We have just finished Selfish Demands. I seem to be more nurturing to StrongerMe's needs. I feel we are communicating better. I feel we have checks and balances in place because of MB. Sorry for not having a lot of depth here, just trying to keep posting to help my wife in the healing process of recovery.

Checking the box?????

I have an interview/testing on Saturday for a new job. If there is an offer, it will be second shift - leaving house at 2:00 PM, home at 12:30 AM.

I�m going to pretty much repost the pros/cons that StrongerMe/wife already posted because I�d like your thoughts. We�ve listened to half of the radio show clips that MelodyLane posted and plan to listen to the rest tonight or tomorrow.

Assuming there is an offer:
Pros:
� Income - almost 60% more than the teaching salary
� 2nd shift - helps in summertime - will be able to be home with the girls until 2:00 each day - StrongerMe usually gets home at around 5:00.
� Opportunity - hard to come by in this economy
� You can�t get a job on 1st shift unless you work on an off shift. They are talking about putting in an additional line but that doesn�t have any guaratees of a 1st shift job for several years.

Cons
� 2nd shift - won't see the girls during the school week, unless I get up early to take them to breakfast/school a couple of days
� 2nd shift - We will see each other less. StongerMe works at home 2 days per week, so we may be able to make up some of the time missed

What are your thoughts on trying to get another teaching job in two years if another one opens up? This is with strict adherence to EP�s.

Did you see what Dr Harley said about that? The problem with shift work jobs is that they are a disaster to marriages. None of the pros you listed can overcome that. Taking that job would virtually eliminate your necessary 20+ hours of undivided attention, which renders your recovery efforts useless. The program doesn't work without the UA time.

The FIRST THING to consider when choosing a job is if it complements or harms your marriage.

If you don't believe me, please post to Dr Harley and ask his opinion. It is HIS opinion that counts. None of us here know how to save a marriage. Our best thinking ruined our marriages.

you forgot one:


But don't take my word for it, ask Dr Harley. I sell soft drinks for a living and only know how to screw up marriages.

Please remember to concentrate on your UA time, finding things to do that you both enjoy....

Get an Ice Cream Treat (like a Hot Fudge Sunday) - Order ONE, and sit close enough to each other to share it. Make one rule before eating it.... You can only have a bite when the other one gives it to you..... It'll make you laugh and smile!

This is just one example, be creative....
It's the inexpensive fun while out on a date that makes all the difference.

It can't be serious all the time or you'll go insane!

This one is on my list for the very next time Mr Pep and I share a treat.
Thanks for the brilliant idea!

DH and I sit on the same side of the booth and share an entree. It is very romantic!!

Had a good weekend with StrongerMe this weekend. Had a good time with the daughters as well. We talked and had recreational activities together. The whole family went and rode bicycles together. We had different times that we were talking with each other and the girls while we were riding. This is one of the things I really enjoy is getting outside and doing something. Anything but being inside watching TV or on the computer. I was so happy because StrongerMe seemed to be positive about doing it and was trying to do it.

Here is where it started going south. Our children have not been listening to us. I have been trying to let StrongerMe handle the discipline because our daughters especially the younger 11 year old have not been obeying when they are told to do something. When they are spoken to they say ok and walk away. They are told 3 and 4 times to do chores. I really need to work on this because it makes me upset when this happens. I feel it is disrespectful for them to not obey us and I do not do well with them disobeying.

There are three females in this house. I do not like to wait. They may tell you they are always waiting on me. I have tried to deal with this by getting a Rubiks cube and working it while I wait on them. I also have a pellet rifle that I go outside and shoot until they come out.

We finished our family devotion last night and then I told the girls to do their bedtime routines. They didn�t move quickly enough for me. My wife and I talked about how I need to be more patient and I agreed with her after it was all discussed. I do feel she backs me for the most part on discipline with the children and I feel we end up on the same page. Sometime I have to tell her things but I have to give her time to process it. I feel we are in line with each other.

This makes me feel that I can�t do anything right. This morning I looked at motorcycles for sale and there was one with 2k less miles for 2k less than I would want for mine. My wife just wants it sold. I didn�t have positive feelings out of this.
We went to church and the message was on family. How the father is to be the leader of the household. Lead by example. It is very hard to be a leader if you have lied to the people that love you the most. You have not lead by example. You have let your family down in every way. Caused your wife pain that she may not ever be able to get over and made your children look at marriage in a negative way.

When we got home we were going to watch a movie with the family. I went to set up the movie and then my wife wanted me to put clothes up in the bedroom instead of us watching a movie. While I was putting the cloths up she wanted to talk about why I had been distant and not talking to her that morning. I told her I was going to post about it and she could read it then that I didn�t have all my thoughts together. She kept talking pressing the questions about what was I going to post and what was going through my mind. I was just trying to just put up clothes. We started arguing and it went south from there. I ended up watching the movie with my daughters without my wife. We talked about it later and I feel we are on a more positive note.

The difference in me now is:

I try to figure out what am I doing for us to have an argument.

Before I would think about just leaving because I couldn�t make her happy.

Why do I think the way I do because that is not what she meant?

How can I look at this differently and learn from it so it will never happen again?

What behavior do I need to change so that it will never start?

I never wanted to hurt her feelings before and I certainly do not want to do it now. I still am doing this and I understand that it is killing Love Bank deposits. This is one of the things that I really want to work on but the reality is we both have had behaviors to cause arguments for years. It is hard to change these bad habits overnight. I have 10 times the bad habits as my wife. I am trying. She hates to hear this when I say it.

I did quit my job on Dec. 19th.

I haven�t had any alcohol.

I haven�t put the motorcycle up for sale. I will do that this week.

We have been working through marriage builders and doing a minimum of 15 hrs. UA with each other every week.

I feel our feelings have changed when we argue. I feel I am looking for ways to fix it and I feel my wife is exhausted and is possibly wondering if all of this is worth it.

Haven't been following your thread but is it possible for you and the wife to take a parenting class together and be on the same page when it comes to discipline?

This is a real trigger.

My FWH put off selling his RC stuff because he would not sell for what he wanted it to sell for. Ever day several times a day, I thought about how much more the money and the RC stuff was meant to him. I didnt care if that was true, its how it felt and that was what was important.

I got to the point of telling him that I was going to go and donate it to the local good will if it was not sold for whatever he could get for it.

Hi Longhaul, I would first suggest that you go and post this to Dr Harley so he and your coach know you guys are fighting. I don't know which lessons you are on, but they might want you to jump over to the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters. Fighting is devastating to marriages and your marriage cannot afford this now or any time.

I know that Dr Harley told a man on the radio last week that there is no "trying" about stopping the lovebusters; just stop doing it. And that is what you are going to have to do. I realize it is easy to fall back into bad habits, believe me I had all of them too, but you guys can't do it anymore. I know you see how damaging it is.


You are so right. But you can change this today. It takes 2 people to argue.

One thing really stands out in your post that I wanted to address. And that is the comment about losing $2000 on the motorcycle. Were you saying this in the hopes that she would say "oh no, don't sell it then?" Did you say it to put pressure on her somehow? Because that is how I would have interpreted your comment. I would also feel like I was being pressured to say don't sell it and put in a position to have to RE-NEGOTIATE a key factor in my own recovery. Your wife cannot be placed in that condition, LH. She needs you to protect her now and can't be forced to defend her boundaries anymore.

I can't read her mind but that is exactly how I would have taken your comment. I would have been very upset. That motorcycle represents her worst nightmare and getting it out of there will alleviate many of her triggers.

You are leading by example by being man enough to face your wrongdoing and correct your wrongs. You are showing your children and your wife what a good man does, Longhaul. It takes a long time to earn respect when we have destroyed it. It is not easy but you are on the right road. Hang in there and don't give up.

And stop fighting!!

In reflecting, I would say I am having a difficult time in selling the motorcycle. I have rode dirt bikes and street bikes my whole life. I love riding motorcycles. I have always wanted my wife to ride with me. I tried to always get her to ride with me. I tried to get her to ride with older riders that did not drink and would be very conservative riders. She wouldn�t ride alone or with a group. I tried everything. We went to TX last October and we rode with another couple and had a wonderful time. I thought when we got back we would ride more. We rode more than we did before but not that much.

I understand this was one of the factors in recovery. She has told me she does not want me to turn my head and look at a motorcycle going down the road while we are in the car. She told me she wants the motorcycle sold with no plans of ever buying another one, EVER. Do not even bring this up two years from now or ever. She will bring it up and I am not to say anything unless she brings it up. This would be one of those times I would think to be quiet, think, and especially don�t speak.

$2000 dollars is a lot of money when you do not have a job. I am not getting unemployment. I have worked since I was 15 years old and have never been without a job. I am about to be at a month without a job.

The motorcycle is a small sacrifice to go without. I had rather have my wife recovering and moving forward and also not having triggers than having a motorcycle or a job. It will go just like the job. We will be better once it is gone.

Posting is therapeutic but I am very slow. My last post took one hour and 45 minutes to write. It frustrates me because that is time I could be spending with my wife. She seems to be better when I post.

You have been there for my wife when I was not. I truly believe without MB and you we would not be together. It takes my wife and I to do this and we are the ones that will make it successful but we have to follow the path. I just want to say �Thank You� for being a support system. You have been so helpful for us and I appreciate this. I hope we make it through this and I hope we will make you proud that you have helped us.

I will put this on the top of the list. Thanks for your input.

Dr Harley tells the story about how he loved to camp and go hiking and his wife would have none of that. He does not miss it, though, because he replaced it with activities that both he and his wife loved. The problem comes when something other than your spouse is your favorite leisure activity. Anything that comes before your marriage eventually comes between you, and that is what happened here.

And while you might resent giving up your motorcycle now, that resentment will only last until a suitable replacement is found that you both enjoy. On the other hand, if you kept it, her resentment would last forever. It sounds like she does not enjoy riding motorcycles and now it represents the worst thing that ever happened to her.

Your wife did the right thing in not agreeing to go riding on the motorcycle since that is something she does not enjoy. What went wrong was that guys did not find something ELSE you could do together that you both enjoyed. I know it seems impossible now, but as your marriage thrives, you will find other things that you enjoy as much or more. I only hope you don't hold this over her head or bring it up to her again [except to tell her it is sold] because she has been through alot already.


That is the perfect approach. And I promise you that if you keep on this same path, you will be rewarded with a great marriage to the mother of your children.


I think it is a great idea to post here because we can discuss things with you that might not be a good idea to bring up with her. You are both in a very emotional, volatile situation whereas we are not emotional about your situation.


You are very welcome, and I have no doubt that you and your wife will turn this around. You are both very committed and I promise this will get easier!

You won't need to post forever, although you do and will have a lot to offer others on the boards.

Sell the motorcycle, and as ML said, don't hold it against her, ever. Don't look at you having to sell the motorcycle as something you are doing to appease your demanding wife, but as you attempting to start making amends. I know that you have taken BIG, HUGE steps already, but there needs to be more. Making big changes in your life, and righting wrongs that you have committed takes a huge amount of effort. Your wife and family are worth it, and so are you.

Motorcycle is now listed. Wife seems to be happy.

I'm certain she;ll be happier when it is sold. And although you may grieve it's loss at first, I am quite certain that when you have a fully recovered marriage, you will wonder why you ever placed such high value to a material thing.

Me ---->


Good Job!

Long Haul:
What's the bike you are selling?

I already feel that with my job. It was a lot more stress on me than I thought. There was a lot of mental time spent on it. The hated to leave the students in the middle of the year and history has shown from the program that it has changed the future of the students if they that advantage of their opportunities.

The students will survive and the school will go on. My wife and childeren come first.
My day is being a stay at home dad. Looking for a job. Laundry but not folding, I hate it. Keeping the kitchen clean. Spending one on one time with the kids when they get home and having supper for my wife when she gets home and we all eat together. MB at night and I have a date night with my wife tonight.
The economics has not come into play with half our income gone. We are fairly frugale and our bills stay the same. The biggest way we can cut our budget is eating out. Instead of eating out I have been going to the grocery store but their prices have gone through the roof. $28 for getting stuff for sandwiches. Made fajitas and it was $70 but we did eat on it for 3 days. My oldest daughter and I made breakfast for supper last night with everything we had here so we are improving.

I just want to be with my wife and kids. I want to help my wife heal. I am so ready for us to move forward and hopefully with me finally put the motorcycle up for sale. I am aware of me dragging on these issues I have hurt the process.

I just trying to move forward and rebuild everything I have damaged. I appreciate everyday I have with my wife and I want the next day to be the same. I do not like argueing and it really empties my Love Bank.

With MB we are addressing these things and moving forward. I am ready for the habits to disappear where we can X them off so they never pop up again.

It is a 2009 Harley Davidson Roadking.

Just returned from the big annual moto auction in Vegas. The used market is well up from last year, and Harley's especially. You should have no trouble finding a buyer, someone who will love and enjoy your bike as much as you have...

And... You have given your wife a gift by listing it...

I quit my job. There is no unemployment or any money coming in on my part. I don't think it makes me a bad/selfish/ ect. person because I want to get the most out of it we can. The other bike I looked at was $2000 cheaper than I wanted for my bike. I am not working and I was just talking with my wife. She said I need to communicate everything I am thinking and I did, it went south from there.

I am fine with getting rid of the motorcycle because it is giving her so much pain. I have not even taken it for a ride because I don't even want her to hear it run. It is at another house and she doesn't have to see it when she gets home.

I am ready for it to be gone and us moving ahead.

One thing I would not communicate is anything that appears to be waffling about previously agreed upon items related to the affair. AS you can see, that only causes you both enormous problems. She sure doesn't need the added stress. She can't be placed in a position to have to re-negotiate or defend decisions over and over again. There has been WAY WAY too much negotiation about basic affair proofing steps and I think that has really added to her stress.

The less stress the better, for both of you!

I realize you want to get the most out of the motorcycle and that is a good thing. As long as that does not delay its sale or change the decision.

No folding clothes, huh?

Point taken.

We had our date night tonight. We had a window of time of 1 � hours. . It is cold and rainy tonight, so we couldn�t walk around town. I wanted to walk, hold her hand and talk. I thought we could go into a home improvement store and walk in circles. She told me I would see people and talk. I was going to Walmart to pick up some things and we could walk there instead.

She wanted to go to McDonalds and sit and talk. I thought we could ride to another Walmart that was further away and we could talk in the car and then walk and talk in Walmart. She thought we were going to McDonalds. We went to McDonalds and talked in the parking lot before we went in.

We went over our communication problems. I say things but this is what I meant and what I felt when I was saying them. I shouldn�t have started driving to Wal-Mart without talking everything over with her. This put her in a defensive mode. She explained some of the things she did wrong on her reaction.

When we argue over stupid stuff it depletes my Love Bank. I had been looking forward to our date all night and it had been crushed over Walmart or McDonalds.

Tonight we communicated and reeled it in the car before we went into McDonalds. I felt like the sun shined on us. We had our food and set across from each other because I like to look at her. I always sit with my back to the wall so I can watch people. I have been trying to put my back to the people and watch my wife.

The rain stopped and we went and walked around town for a few minutes before our date was over. I am in a warm and fuzzy place in my mind and life is good tonight.

I appreciate my time with her and I just have set small goals daily but aiming for the long term goal of a happy, honest, loving, fulfilling marriage with my wife.

I am happy for today and I want one more day with her and appreciate the time with her. My goal is one day at a time and planning for tomorrow.

One day, looking back and years have gone by and we are more in love than ever. Time will tell.

Dr Hatley recommends that you sit down Sunday and plan out where you will go for the week so the hours add up to 15.
That way there is no confusion (McDonald's, Walmart etc) AND the agreement would be enthusiastically agreed to by both your wife and you.

And by doing that all the time -- literally and metaphorically -- you'll be showing her that you've got her back... got it covered.

Always have each other's backs. That's when it gets good. You & her against the world.

Longhaul, like Jedi pointed out, you can avoid all that dissension if you just sit down on Sunday afternoon, schedule out your UA time for the next week and decide on activities THEN. That way you aren't spending your UA time debating over where you are going. And once you work out a few schedules that you both really like, you can use the same schedule over and over again.

Do your best to avoid any conflicts during your UA time. Do you have the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook? If so, the worksheet is in the back of that book. Tear it out and make copies.

I don't know if this will work for you and your wife, but we love to go out and eat. WE like driving to places about an hour away so we have a good time driving there and back. And depending on the restaurant we might split an entree to save money. WE eat out alot and that can really add up.


How did she feel about going for a walk in the home improvement store? Are you checking with her to make sure all of your plans are something she enjoys?

Interesting that you planned UA time in Walmart; that is where some of our best UA time is spent! Sounds crazy, but we really enjoy it..

in Walmart; that is where some of our best UA time is spent! Sounds crazy, but we really enjoy it.

We do too, but I go there to get the benefit of the "contrast effect"!











All photos from www.peopleofwalmart.com

Take my picture off there, you dweeb!!!

But how did you get Mr. Lane to dress entirely in red?

The same way your wife got you to sport that fetching mullet hairdo!

Shhhhhh - don't let on you've finally gotten a picture of me!

As an aside: Love the shoes! They're perfect for standing in the shopping cart. But I always envisioned you as taller!

LH: Sorry about this...diversion. But I'm glad to see you are making some progress. The best way to improve a behavior is to follow the cycle: "Ready....Fire....Aim!" Analyze each try, save what worked, changed what didn't.

Millions of teenagers have made romantic connections over fries and Big Macs. (What's in that "Special Sauce"?) Be a teenager again!

No problem about the diversion. It is good to see humor on here. You guys are pretty funny.

Sorry Longhaul! Can you believe the way these damnyankees make fun of our beloved WALMART??

I talked to a friend and I have some clarity and also talked more with my wife last night. This is odd to me I need to post to solve a problem when my wife is beside me. I don�t care, I just want to do whatever it takes to make the light bulb go turn on in my head and she can heal.


The first thing I will respond to is my 11 daughter checking my phone calls and text:

I looked my daughters both in the face and lied to them. I told them I had a friendship and nothing more. I was not going to take a lie detector test, their mother needs to believe me and I will do anything for their mother if she would take the lie detector of the table and our family would move forward.
I told them the night before that we were divorcing. This was one of the worst nights of my life. You could hear the 11 and 14 year old daughters cries echo down the hallways and through the house until about 2 a.m. that morning. I devastated their lives and their family structure.

If my youngest needs to see every call and text to rebuild the honesty, trust, and security that I have crushed, then I have no problem with this. This is nothing compared to what I have put her through. I have nothing to hide from her. My life will be transparent to her. Each time she looks I am helping her heal the deep wounds I have put into her.


About the job:

I have betrayed my wife. I have betrayed that she can trust me to support her and have her back in every area of our lives. I have to be all in 100% and do whatever it takes for our marriage and family not to suffer. She needs to feel honesty and trust from me. She only feels it when I am honest and committed to supporting her and loving her. If our marriage or family suffers from the job then I will quit and find a job that does support our marriage and family�s recovery through this.
There are so many bad habits to break that it is hard to identify them to correct. When you add in everyday life, then emotional rollercoaster and pain I have put my wife through with distrust and dishonesty. We have a lot on our plate. I am trying to get through this one day at a time.


Update on Job:

I got the rejection letter from the job this week. StrongerMe was glad I didn't get the job. At first it hurt my feelings that she was glad. Then I got depressed because there is no money coming in on my side for over a month. Then my feeling were hurt again that she was glad about not getting the job. I seem to spiral downward.

I feel I am a shell of a person. I know now she only wants to protect our family and she was looking out for the best interest of our family. We worked through it and talked about it. We seem to be reeling in our discussions when they start going negative. I still look at this one day at a time.

I do not know if I have some kind of primal instinct, I do not feel happy unless I am providing for my family. I need to be working.

StrongerMe is with our youngest daughter on a school trip. We have talked for long periods over the phone. I have the oldest daughter and I told her I was taking her on a Father/Daughter date tonight to her favorite restaurant just the two of us. She seemed very happy about that. The whole family will be together tomorrow night and I am ready for StrongerMe to be home. It has only been one day but I really miss her. I do not like waking up and her not being in the bed. That�s why I am posting at 1 a.m. in the morning. It makes me feel better. I am looking forward to her being home.

Hi Longhaul, sorry to hear you are feeling down. But don't despair, it really will get better. You are on the right track. If you do this right, the grand pay off will be a romantic, passionate marriage. I am not sorry that you didn't get the job because if you did, you wouldn't get that pay off. Not with a second shift job. Sorry, but that is true. Second shift jobs are a disaster to marriages and that is the last thing you need.

That must mean the perfect job is just around the corner for you. Every time I didn't get a job I thought I wanted, something 10x better was just around the corner. Hang in there, friend!

Longhaul, what did you think of Dr Harley's response to this same post? [sans the part about the job]

I agree with Dr. Harley, you and my wife. I am scared to death about the finances here. I am just hoping one job comes through. I don�t need a great job. I just need a job on 1st shift. I put in about 5 other places yesterday. I do not believe �what will be will be� I believe to do everything in your corner to stack the deck so hopefully things will work out in your favor. One job with decent pay on 1st shift is what I want and need.

StrongerMe and I have talked about other jobs:

Another teaching job: It would be 1st shift and the summers off with our girls. She is worried the same outcome will happen even though we have EP�s.

Manufacturing: Unless it is a new startup company, most people have to work an off shift and pay their dues to get on a day shift.

I put in for a Technical Support and sales job: Her response was she didn�t know that she could trust me if I traveled.
If we could hit the lottery I would be fine with being a stay at home dad.

I do not want to be a greeter at Wal-Mart. I would love to do it if I was retired but not now. I have spent my whole life continuously learning and keeping my skills up with education and experience. It just seems like anything I propose gets shot down by StrongerMe. I am hoping it is just because this is new and she will trust me again. At my previous job before teaching I traveled all over the world and she was ok. I hope with MB and my actions we can get to a happy trusting place for her. I don�t want to travel again. I need a job to help me with my recovery. It doesn�t put me in a happy place in my mind being unemployed.

Be patient LongHaul. A job will come soon. In the mean time focus on things you can do to make you and your wife and your daughters happy.

A few of the things that will be bad for your marriage will be traveling, shift work, or working with a lot of females again. I would not put it on SfrongerMe to shoot down any of those positions. *you* should be shooting down those positions because they are bad for your marriage. Putting her in that position and making her the bad guy will only tear her down more. She needs you to protect her.

If you take a traveling job, then she should not trust you because those jobs are an invitation to an affair. That would be crazy. That would be like saying you should be trusted to go drunk driving.

Affairs and divorce are epidemic in traveling jobs. Even in the best marriages. The strongest marriages end in divorce over traveling jobs. I would ask yourself in every potential job: does this job complement my marriage?

You don't want to go through all this hell for nothing, do you? The payoff will be a romantic, passionate marriage. That is your paycheck, but you won't have that if you have a job that complements your marriage.

P.s. I have been calling on Walmart market managers all week. They have great careers, btw, and their business is thriving in this economy. Behind all those greeters and cashiers is a full staff of career minded, savvy managers and directors.

We have a new one opening up in our town. I will put in an application. If you have know anyone in there that has any pull, tell them you know a southern boy that is about to starve to death and can�t feed his family and needs a job. He has a great personality, Loves chocolate, makes his own cloths and loves long walks in the park. He just needs 1st shift and can�t travel or work with women.

Another question:

StrongerMe feels I have put her second to the OW. She also feels she was a second choice to the OW. I told her I see more clearly now that I read more post and that I am living this. I feel I was addicted to the affair and that I was in the fog. I could hear things that would make sense but could never get out of the fog.

I feel this affair has been over. I wish she would feel she is #1 because I would never do this for the OW. I have asked her �I there anything else you need or want from me that I am not doing.� I am still waiting on a response. I would say the delay is a good thing because before she has let me know real quickly what I am doing wrong.

There is not a magic pill that will remove her doubts.

The answer to helping your wife can be found in your dedication to working the MB Program and staying on course. Combined with time, it's a winning formula. Just continue to be patient with her throughout the process.

.... Oh ya, and remember to pray for her, often.

Longhaul,

There's a book/devotional that was recommended to me by some people on this forum.....

"The Power Of A Praying Husband"

It really helped me. I think it might do you some good too.

I will order it today or go to the bookstore and get it tomorrow.

Thanks,

Longhaul

You DID do things like this for OW. You risked your entire life, family, career, etc. for OW. That is the reality that your BW now knows she was living for 5 years. The insecurity and doubt which you took 5 years to create will not just disappear after a couple weeks of putting her first, finally. A 5 year affair, and a 2 month recovery, clearly you are not questioning why she is not more healed by now...

You need to be in this for the Long Haul. 2-5 year recovery, that is how long it will take of you being all in and putting her first for her sense of security to reestablish itself.

Agree with unwritten. Your wife also has to deal with the fact that you and skanky had secrets to which your wife was not privy. For YEARS. It will take a long time for her to get over this, but you are on the right track. Just don't expect things to improve overnight, they won't.

Longhaul, my friend. What are you doing? It is like a week cannot go by without a new self induced trauma in your marriage. The latest of which is the re-introduction of your mother before your wife is ready.

By trying to bully her into bringing your mother back into the fold, you tell her loud and clear that you don't protect her. Do you realize that? Your mother did tremendous damage to your wife and in order to overcome this, your wife must see that you place her interests FIRST. She does not feel that way when you lovebust her by telling her she is "restricting" you when she asks that you don't hurt her. You are free to hurt her whenever and however you want. But if you continue to do so, you won't have a marriage for long. Is that what you want?

Here is what Harley says about that subject:


Your marriage has to CHANGE into a relationship of extraordinary CARE in order to become a happy, fulfilling, successful marriage. I realize it is hard to break bad habits, but asking her to suffer so you can have what you want has to be eliminated entirely. And so does the accusation that she is "restricting" you when she asks that you not make her suffer. That all has to GO!

Your wife has been through holy hell. I would focus very hard on never doing anything to upset her. Don't even bring this stuff up until you become skilled at negotiating and have eliminated lovebusting traits such as "you are restricting me" and "you don't trust me."

Put your wife FIRST, my friend!! The recovery of your marriage depends on it.

p.s. I am very disappointed in your mother and am baffled about her defense of you. Her defense did not demonstrate love, but enabling. It is analogous to shrieking in the face of rape victim "YOU MUST FORGIVE!! YOU MUST FORGIVE!!YOU MUST FORGIVE!!" and completely ignoring the assault. Not to mention that forgiveness must be earned.

Would your mother think it is appropriate to scream in the face of rape victim that she must "forgive" her rapist? And to bully and badger the rape victim and try to influence others to bully her? Because that is what she did to your wife. And you want to go see the woman who did that to your wife?

I know you love your mother, but she let you and your whole family down in this instance. The only explanation I can conceive is that she had her own affair once and possesses a wayward mind. Her behavior was CRUEL in this instance.

I am the mother of a 30 year old married man and if he did this, there would be hell to pay. May God help him when I get my hands on him. Believe me, I would not be badgering his victim for some fake "forgivness" and neither would most parents. How inappropriate!

I agree with you. Thank you for supporting StrongerMe and telling me like it is. I do not disagree with anything you have posted or with what StrongerMe has posted.

I just wanted to see my mother. I wanted to talk with her about anything other than my marriage and home life. I see my actions are selfish and I will keep reading your post over and over until it burns into my brain. The conversation started about my mother. This was my fault and I need to change this. Everything seems so simple when you read it but when everyday life mixes it all up and my selfish thoughts come into play my mouth just opens and stupid stuff comes out.

I can see other post and see where they have done wrong and getting off path. I do not post anything because I have enough on my plate and I am certainly not someone not needs to give any advice other than stay on the path. I hope one day I will be able to say we have been in recovery for 5 to 10 yrs. Post about how happy my wife and I are together. I am just hoping to get through the day without an argument coming up and I understand it increases my odds if I am not selfish and think about what my wife is going through.

LH, I know you miss your mother. You are a good guy and I know you are really trying. I am going to suggest another approach that might make your wife more willing to bring your mother back into the fold in the future. Your goal is to get your mother back into your life in a way that complements your marriage and puts your wife FIRST. Your wife should always come first.

I strongly feel that your mother should apologize to your wife and daughters before she is integrated back into your lives. It is almost impossible to forgive her for something when she doesn't even admit it is wrong. And if she doesn't understand it was wrong, she is not a safe person to your marriage and is bound to just do it again.

That will be the first step in making amends to your wife. And she must guarantee that she never hurts her again by bullying her or trying to turn your daughters against her. Her attitude about infidelity is absolutely destructive to marriages and should be abandoned when around your family.

I would wait a few weeks until things calm down. Then send your mother a letter telling her how much she has hurt your wife and daughters. Tell her that this rift cannot be resolved until she apologizes to your wife and agrees to never hurt her again with this wayward line of thinking. [you need to be very forthright with her about how destructive her approach is - I hope you include my analogy about the rape victim so she GETS it] I would ask her to send your wife a letter of apology. Then you read her letter of apology and make sure it is sincere before you give it to your wife. If it is not sincere, or contains weasel words, then send it back to your mother and tell her this won't work.

This will demonstrate to your wife that you care and that you will stand up for her. She desperately needs that right now.

In the meantime, I would not speak to or see your mom until this is resolved. After that, make all of your communications with her with your wife present. That will make your wife feel much more safe and she will know your M is not backstabbing her. That puts your wife FIRST and effectively integrates your mother back into your lives.

And this is ALL contingent upon your wife's feelings. I would suggest this to your wife and see how she feels. As your mother's son, it falls to you to set her straight when she harms your family, Longhaul. You are the protector of your wife and children. If my son and DIL told me I was harming them, you bet your butt I would stop it. My DIL is the gatekeeper to my future grandchildren and I need to know if I am harming that relationship so I can knock it off.

I know your mother cares about you and she should be grateful for an opportunity to make this right.

I think this approach will help your wife heal and will bring your mother back into the fold.

What do you think?

Excellent, Mel.

You need to retract this, though, and find a more appropriate phrase to describe him.

I feel the emotions are too high here. StrongerMe screamed at me repeatedly last night and told me she hated me over and over. She told me I didn�t have the heart to stay in this. She has told me repeatedly this week to just go back to my old job and see if I can get it back. She told me she wants me to post. She told me yesterday it pisses her off when I have comments from people and it makes sense to me and I listen to them. All I have to do is listen to her.

She wants me to leave the house. Last time I left the house my children called crying and asking why I left them. I am not leaving, we spent 11 years renting and saving our money. We spent 3 years fixing everything in this house. We bought the side lot for protection last year. All I have heard for 2 months is how she hates this house. If she hates it then she can get out. I don�t hate it.

My fears happened last night. StrongerMe told me she was done. Hated me and wanted me out. This was my fear and I told her repeatedly I am scared to death about not having a job. I received another rejection letter today. You can say this is my fault because I am the one that had the affair.

This is the facts:

We have been together for 20 years. I was in an affair 4 � years ago that lasted 6 mths. Kiss the OW two years ago. I have never been with anyone else. This woman has broken about 4 marriages and has been in multiple affairs. I have been friends and acquaintances with females for our 20 years together and have never even thought of cheating on StrongerMe. Where I went wrong was not having EP�s in place. If the OW had openly proposed an affair I would have stopped the friendship there. StrongerMe told me to stop my friendship with her and I talked to her to end it. The OW played psychological mind games. I was guilty of my actions and wasn�t innocent. I regretted it every time but in hindsight at this point I was addicted to the relationship.

Since the end of November I have been trying to do everything I can to help heal the damage of by betrayal and actions. There are a lot of bad habits in our relationship. I like MB�s because it has solutions.

My goals were this:

Have a truthful and honest relationship with my wife above everyone. Spend 15 to 20 hour of UA with her every week and rebuild our marriage.

Have a truthful and honest relationship with my children and try to heal the lies I had told them and how I have let them down and betrayed them.

Have a truthful and honest family relationship with my wife and children together.


We have a truck that wasn�t running for over a month. It was worked on and would run and then quit. This was a two week process. I have a friend that lives about an hour away and told me he would work on it in about 2 to 3 weeks. He told me that I could bring it this weekend. I talked to StongerMe about taking it Saturday but the weather was too bad. I talked about Sunday in the afternoon and soon as it warms up some. On Sunday afternoon I asked her could she follow me so I could drop off the truck. She told me to do it another day because it was on her way to work and I could meet her there. Our weekdays are already crazy without adding this to it. I told her it would only save the time she would be driving to work which would be about 40 minutes. She was sitting and watching TV with my oldest daughter who wasn�t feeling well. She didn�t want to do it then and I said OK. I went outside and kept cleaning out the truck. I called a friend and asked him if he would follow me to drop of the truck. He said he would in about an hour. StrongerMe came outside and said she would follow me to take the truck. I called my friend and cancelled.

Here is where I need help.

She told me I was doing Independent Behavior and was no following POJA.

I just wanted to get the truck an hour away and get back home. My oldest daughter was sick and I was fine with StrongerMe staying with her. I found another way to get it there and it is done. This turning into an argument kills me it drives me to a level of frustration so fast. Can you give me some solutions?

My youngest daughter wouldn�t help the oldest to make her bed up because she had slept in the bed. They were arguing when I came in. I told the youngest to leave and go to her room. I helped the oldest make up her bed in 2 minutes and told her not to let her sister sleep with her again if she isn�t going to help her. They didn�t argue anymore over that. Should I have done anything different with this?

I feel I have no say so in this family. StongerMe says that I do not follow the POJA.

This in our POJA:

We were going out on a date and I told StrongerMe where I would like to go eat. She said no and told me what she wanted to eat and I suggested a place that served that food. She said ok. Whatever I suggest she tells me why it is wrong. It is like the commercial, Do you like the Blue one or the Red one? I like the Blue one. She will get the Red one.

I don�t really care what we do as long as we are doing something. I just want to be with StrongerMe and I hate arguing. I don�t want it to be complicated. I just want to be with her and be talking with her and her being happy.

About my mother:

We have not reached a POJA. I have suggestions that I feel are good and I would like to go with. I will not do anything until we reach a POJA.

Since D-Day StrongerMe has changed and we have been doing UA time every week. She is going through 100 times what I am going through. I have changed. I want to be with StrongerMe. I tell her when I am wrong. I apologize when I am wrong. I have had complete honesty and transparency with her. She wants me to talk to her and tell her what I am thinking and I do. I am sorry I get depressed and scared because I do not have a job and have never been without a job in my life. I have laid everything down at her feet that she has asked. I agree it wasn�t to her timeframe but I did it. I do see the fog I was in and I have told her how MB�s was right. How she was right about things. She is at her end and I just don�t think we are going to make it through this. We can�t even take a truck and hour away without an argument. I just feel we are out of control. I am so unhappy.

You have access to Dr Harley and your coach. What do they say about your current situation?

When was Dday?






My mind is caught on this so I'll respond later...

Longhaul, the bad thing is that she is put in a position to have to fight for everything and it is clear she has just given up. If this marriage makes it - which looks doubtful - it is going to have to all be on you to carry the load. She can't be in self protect mode any more. You have to do the protecting.

And your situation is much worse than most. Not only did you have an affair, but you lied to her for almost 5 years about it AND stayed in touch with the OW in the meantime. So your situation is much, much worse than most because of 5 years of fraud and deceit. For 5 years you had secrets with a skank to which your wife was not privy.

I worry that your wife is headed for a nervous breakdown and I mean that sincerely. This is just too much for any person to have to endure. I don't know what Dr Harley will say but I suspect he might suggest a separation if this resistance and hostilty can't stop. She can't take any more.

This happened yesterday and this morning. I am talking to the coach in the morning.

Longhaul,

Our coach was excellent at getting to the heart of H's and my problems.

Mel is right. Your wife is exhausted. Talk to your coach about how you can be proactive and take the recovery lead.

AM

The problem with the truck was you made arrangements without telling her. If the situation were reversed would you feel comfortable with that? You are used to independent behaviour.

The challenge with POJA is not to choose between red and blue but to find a purple that you both love. I think this only comes with practice and I feel that you are both wanting a quick fix. I'm sure SM would appreciate if u would take the lead on some of the issues.

LH, it is hard initially to learn how to negotiate so don't give up. The problem in the scenario above is that you didn't have her enthuistic agreement to take the truck, so you made a unilateral decision. And when you did that, she CAPITULATED and took you. A very bad move. Just because you decided to take the truck on a certain day, does not mean it has to be done. It should be done at a time and in a way that makes you both happy.

You are both stuck on my way or her way and tend to think in win/lose terms. You have to follow the basic rules of negotiation and keep negotiating until you find solutions that suit you BOTH.


Yes, that is what you did in the above incident.


But this was your unilateral decision and not your wife's. Her feelings were ignored. That is why you have arguments.


Well, you do have a say. But you and your wife are learning to make decisions that take the others feelings into account.


My husband and I have a short list of restaurants that we both like. We have a standing agreement to NEVER capitulate on the restaurant issue. It rarely takes us 15 seconds to negotiate restaurants anymore. At first it was infuriating because we are both so picky. It just took practice.


It will be complicated at first because you are not used to making joint decisions. That will come with practice. But, DON'T ARGUE!!

And you are not unusual in that POJA does not come easy for you. It was very hard for me, too. My DH and I had a big fight in the grocery store. We posted to Dr Harley about it in 2007:

Your post was helpful. StrongerMe and I had a talk after supper tonight. She is still angry as she should be. My DD14 told her that when she ask me a question that I do not want to answer that I turn it around and attack with another answer to the DD14. This was an eye opening conversation.

Before this conversation with StrongerMe. I talked to DD14 this afternoon and told her that the whole family is having a hard time with this. Their mother has the most pain to work through in this recovery. I am sorry that she and her sister are hurting and I should have not talked with her about this. I am very sorry and I know they are going through pain.

I started supper and she made the bread. I had to leave and pick up DD11 at practice before StrongerMe got home from work. We had supper together and everyone talked about their day. This is what I really enjoy.

From my talk with StrongerMe tonight after supper, the first 12 years of our marriage was good. The past 6 has gone downhill. On the recovery side, StrongerMe hasn�t been able to heal from the affair because of me dragging around about not having a job, ect� She and my daughter have brought to light that I have a lot of things to work on.

I thought I was a good dad because I was at all the school functions. There would be about 100 mothers and 4 to 5 dads and I was always there. They have always known they were loved and taken care of. My oldest told me today that I really haven�t been part of their life. They mainly remember me just drinking beer in the backyard while I cook.

I just thought I was a shell of a man by laying everything down and StrongerMe�s feet and separating from these things. I am learning what makes a man is a good woman behind him holding him up. StrongerMe has been the backbone and I am trying to step into a role that I have never done. I just cook, fix things, drive everybody around and work every day.

We will see what the coach says tomorrow. It doesn�t look too positive on my end.

I just read StrongerMe's post. Her statements are more accurate than mine. My emotions and mental state are all over the place. I feel like my life is in a whirlwind. I may just be out of my league and over my head on this. I hope I have it in me but I haven't been showing signs so far.

Those are some great revelations, Longhaul, and I applaud you for listening to your wife and daughter and using their feedback in a positive manner.

I want to encourage you to stick with this for this reason: it might be tough right now, but there is gold at the end of this rainbow. If you and your wife end your marriage, there is no gold at the end of that rainbow, only more pain for all of you. Learning good habits in marriage is very hard at first, and I suspect it is especially hard for you because you are very independent. I know the feeling.

But it is much, much harder to have a bad marriage than a good one. Once you learn these new habits, your marriage will become a place of joy and fulfillment. I promise you that. If an independent, hardheaded person like me can have that, so can you. It was no walk in the park for me either. But today it IS. And it will be for you too if you stick to it.

I think the greatest thing you can do for your marriage right now is focus on taking care of your wife. She needs the greatest of care right now. The rewards will be great for YOU. The payoff will bring much more happiness than any of your former bad habits.

[quote=LongHaul StrongerMe hasn�t been able to heal from the affair because of me dragging around about not having a job, ect� She and my daughter have brought to light that I have a lot of things to work on.

I thought I was a good dad because I was at all the school functions. There would be about 100 mothers and 4 to 5 dads and I was always there.
[/quote]

Showing up to all of the kids events is not being a good dad because when you do not have a job you have nothing to keep you from being there.

I do not remember why are you out of work?

This is a letter my DD14 wrote to the OW:

I would hope we could do this but it is looking like a separation is about to happen on the homefront:

This is Longhaul's oldest daughter. My parents don't want me to write this letter, but I feel like I need to in order to have closure on this part of my life. After I write this letter, I refuse to speak your name or even think of you ever again.

I just wanted you to know that although you have made a valiant attempt, you have not succeeded in ripping my family apart. Because of you, my life was almost ruined and torn apart.

I know that you are not the only culprit in this crime. My father was a part of it too. But, you could never hope to be as great of a person as he is because he admitted to his crime and is working on his marriage for the sake of me, my sister, and my mother.

You, on the other hand, have kept this matter from everyone. Even now, when it has come out, you still won't admit to it. I know that you are angry about your father-in-law finding out about this because you don't want him or your kids to know about this side of you.

But, when you lie awake at night thinking about the pain this has brought upon you, know that you have caused me the same pain tenfold. I cried for hours and wanted to kill myself thinking that I would no longer have a family that was whole.

I don't think that I can ever fully recover from the pain that you have caused. You are a very selfish person. You were not thinking about how your choices would affect your family and mine.

I have absolutely no respect for you because you are not trying to fix your marriage for the sake of your children. My dad is. At least he is trying to fix the mistakes he has made and help to ease my heartache. I am disappointed in my father, but at least he is honest. This earns him my respect, something you will never possess.

I don't want a reply to this letter. You are toxic to me and I want to get on with my life together with my family. Do not attempt to ever speak to any member of my family again.

I had the affair with a co-worker. I quit my job to help my wife heal and separate from the affair. It had been over but it was triggering my wife. It also did have me in the fog now that I am out of there. I went to all things with my children when I was working. I felt like we were a close family but now I am seeing I could and should have done so much more. It looks like we are about to separate soon.

Dude, I'll admit to having several biases working in my "formulation of advice generator" right now, but you need some serious "man up" therapy.

A person does not need a motorcycle to prove one's worthiness. A man needs to understand
- what is important,
- the need to protect that,
- and the commitment to doing so.

You're failing in all three areas, friend.

And what makes this all the more damning is that you have no claim to ignorance in these matters. People here have been investing (wasting?) their time on this thread and your BW's telling you both what you should be doing.

And your response? Pout, sulk, and mourn. You have shown ZERO willingness to provide the power to the recovery bus while we help BW steer the thing.

I cannot imagine a more salient point than your 14 yo daughter feeling the need to write a letter to OW, and you not being too ashamed to post it here. What a condemnation of your lacking adult responsibility! Do you feel better that DD has deflected most of her bile toward OW, instead of to the true target, you?

I'm going to have to stop writing. I can feel the ***edits*** getting ready to flow.

Let me close by saying if this separation does happen, it will be because that is what you WANTED to have happen all along.

I talked with the coach this morning.

StrongerMe is talking with the coach in about an hour.

I am going to read more in the MB book and we will talk tonight.

The daughter wrote this when we wrote the no contact letter about two months ago.

What did OW do?

The Fence

There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the fence. The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence. Over the next few weeks as he learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily, gradually dwindled down. He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence.

Finally the day came when the boy didn�t lose his temper at all. He told his father about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper. The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone.

The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said �you have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one.� You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won�t matter how many times you say I�m sorry, the wound is still there. Make sure you control your temper the next time you are tempted to say something you will regret later.

- Author Unknown -

For 5-6 years you deceived your BW...all the while she invested time, money, and care to build a home (not a house in case you don't know the difference) with/for you and your girls. You bought a piece of land for protection. Your wife and daughters needed protection from YOU and even now you refuse to provide protection and leave. The NERVE to tell her to get out if she hates it...the house you have tainted in her mind, with your adultery and lies. Dday was two months ago...and she's been hating that house for two months. Maybe there is a connection!! You were building a house and tearing down your family at the same time.

If either of your DDs were married to a man who treated them as you have your BW and then have the audacity to write what you just did, what would you say?

Shameful!

And the silence says it all.

Adios

LH, you should move out of the house. StrongerMe has asked you to move. If you're truly interested in preserving the marriage, you will leave.

Separation in this case would:
1) Give you much needed breathing space and reduce the number of LB withdrawals

2) Give you both the opportunity to work on yourselves. From what strongerme describes, I strongly suggest you take an anger management course. That will go a long way toward helping her see your commitment to the marriage.

3) Give you the chance to "date" again. Automatic UA time, which I haven't seen either of you talk about at all.

LH take this chance to show SM you really do value the marriage. You're just half @ssing it right now. The house will be yours if you're still married. If you divorce it'll probably be sold. So if I were you, I wouldn't use the house as an excuse to stay when you've been asked to leave.

I am trying to do a POJA.

I hate posting.

I feel I am slow at this and the hours I a sit here is time I could be spending UA with SM.

When I post she says I glaze of the truth. She doesn�t like it when I listen to other people�s advice. She told me it pisses her off.

When I am typing she has come in here and just keeps making jabs, �You sure are typing a lot, you must have a lot to say.� I tell her she can read and edit any post before I post it. Please let me type because it takes me such a long time.

She told me she would type because I was so slow, that doesn�t happen because she gets mad and walks out of the room.

She told me I would never have the heart and be the men Never Guessed and Her Papa Bear are because they love their wives and they post.

I do not like the internet, I do not like that I will continually come and check to see what is posted. SM says she has to work but she is here on the computer doing everything else but working. Our time last night she was on it for 3 hours. She will get up in the middle of the night and early mornings to be on it. She has done this frequently during our marriage. This is one of the reasons I hate the internet because it I feel it has taken so much time away from our family.

I am posting here but it will be a letter to SM so I don�t glaze over the truth to you all. She wants me to post. She told me I need to post even though I associate all the above feelings when I do it.

On the subject of our DD14 that you said I abused and she came to you and said I was abusing her:

I talked to DD14 that afternoon and apologized about this. She didn�t want a hug. We made supper together and before I went to pick up DD11 from practice I asked her if she wanted and hug and a kiss from me before just to try to break the tension before I left and she said no. I said ok and was walking away. Then she said I will give you a hug and walked toward me but only leaned into me with her arms down while I hugged her goodbye.
When we got back, we finished supper, set the table and waited on you to get home from work. You told me later that DD14 didn�t think I was truly sorry. So I waited a while until they did their bedtime routines so I could have time to talk to the both of them.

I went to DD14�s room and held DD14 and DD11. I asked her to repeat what I had done to her and how she felt so that she could tell her side and DD11 could also be communicated to. She explained the cycle of abuse to me and DD11. She told the feelings she had felt that day. She said if there was a question that I couldn�t answer that I would turn it around and use her as an example in something else that had nothing to do with what we were talking about and make her feel bad.

I told her we would make a code word of �Beetlejuice� for them to signal to me that I was talking crazy and turning stuff around on them. I told them to say the code word if at any time they had any of these feelings. I was to never do this again and this was a safety net for them to tell me if I didn�t realize what my actions were telling them. This is not for my children to police me. I am to work on this and it never to happen again. I just wanted them to feel they had some input or safe button they could push.

You told me I had not formally apologized for the affair to our children which I thought I did:

I told them that:

I sat down with them, looked them in the face and lied to them about the friendship that I had. I was wrong. I have damaged our family and that is why I have quit my job. I have stopped drinking alcohol and the motorcycle is up for sale. These are to help mama heal and us to recover from this. Some of the worst feelings I have are telling you all that we were divorcing and you all crying through the night and I could hear it echo down the hallways. Mama asked me to leave and you all talking to me on the phone crying and asking why I left you. I will never leave you. I am sorry for what I have done to mama, the both of you and our family. We are trying to move forward in this recovery and I want to make sure you understand I am asking for your forgiveness for what I have done.

My biggest fears came true last Sunday night:

I had brought up trying to talk to my mother. This was my fault and I need to keep my mouth shut. I wanted to write a letter and let you proof read it. You said you wanted to be there when I went to read it to them. I though you and my mother would not stay quiet and there would be an argument. I just didn�t want to have an argument. You said I wasn�t supporting you. I haven�t had contact with my mother I am listening to you. MelodyLane gave us a good plan to work and we seemed to agree on it.

I do not know when this started on Sunday but you told me you wanted me out. I told you I had nothing. No job and no money coming in. I told you I was scared. You told me you wouldn�t let me starve. You also went and moved all of our money to an account without my name on it this week.

I do want to leave this house. I do not want to leave you or my children again. If we separate I truly believe and divorce will soon follow. My thoughts before was neither of us was happy and we could make each other happy. If we separate I truly believe and divorce will soon follow.

When I left is when I realized I wanted to be with you. I want to be with the girls. I want to be with the family. This would be true happiness. MB is the way to rebuild our love that I have depleted with the affair and lying about it to you. MB is our solution. I do love you and I always have. The affair was me being selfish and only thinking of me. There was nothing that you had done that made me have an affair. It was convenient and I wanted to do it. I felt bad about it and didn�t want to do it again but I did. I tried to take it and bury it and it never come back again. It was like the cat in Steven King. I do agree with you that I was addicted and needed to separate from the job.

I had been friends with females for 20 years and never had thoughts nor had any romantic contact with them. I had to big of an ego and felt it would never happen to me. I had no desire of other females. That is why we have the EP�s and I agree with them. I have not shown the responsibility and it will make our future safer.

I was hoping I would get a job and we would move forward. We continually have problems.

All I know to do right now is:


Pray with you, support you, and quit dragging myself down which doesn�t let you heal.
Keep my mouth shut.
Read everything I can on MB every day and quit dragging around with this.
Look for a job that will support our marriage.
Stop angry outburst. Practice by staying calm and not letting adrenaline into my system.
Stop selfish demands and disrespectful judgments because they are love busters and they lead to angry outburst.
Do POJA in everything we do. Practice and Practice this.
Have 20 hrs. of UA time with you every week
Plan our UA time every week to eliminate other problems.
Do everything I can to give you Love Bank deposits for you. Make sure I do these enthusiastically because I need to be making deposits as well. I can�t deposit if I do not enthusiastically do it.

I am just a person that has to have a list. I am fine to add or take away from this list as long as it helps our marriage.

Longhaul, thanks for coming and posting again. A couple of things stand out. The first is the comment above. You apologize alot and there comes a time - I believe you are at that time - where apologies won't cut it. You have to stop behaving like that, period. Your wife has said you abused her and now your children are saying this. Apologies won't cut it anymore. You have to make a decision to stop it. As Harley would tell you "JUST STOP IT."

And they shouldn't forgive you anymore until it stops. FOR GOOD. Have you considered taking anger management classes? WE have some members who have gone through Angerbusters and I wonder if you should check into that?

The second big thing that stands out to me is that your wife clearly doesn't believe you love her. If she is going to be healed, that condition can't stand. I would sit her down and ask her SINCERELY what you are doing wrong. Or better yet, send her an email and ask her to answer you via email. That way, you avoid any potential arguing. ASK HER to give you course corrections so you are not wasting your time.

Wouldn't it be tragic if you went through all this drama and lost in the end run because you were doing something that prevented her healing? The faster she heals, the FASTER your life gets to a great place. Just think of it that way. Don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. You are on a path to success if you will just stick to it.

And while you should not be looking to cause conflicts, I just want to assure you that when a couple moves out of emotional withdrawal, they go through conflict. This is not unusual.

But you should be striving to never do anything to upset your wife right now. She has been through an absolute nightmare and it is up to you to heal her. I don't believe she asked you to move out this weekend because you were singing too loud in church so it must have been pretty serious.

LH, it takes TIME to learn all about MB, and to implement it in your everyday life. I'm glad that although you don't enjoy posting, you continue to do so, to help heal your wife.

I agree with ML, you need to just STOP the abuse. It has become a habit for you, and it isn't going to change overnight. Also, I shudder to think that your children are now being held responsible to tell YOU when you are crossing the line. YOU should be held responsible for your own actions, and it seems to me that if they were to NOT say your code word, and then complain later that they did feel abused, you would blame them, and that would be cruel and unfair. They are CHILDREN.

Now, onto how much time SM spends on the computer, and mainly on MB, I would like to ask you, what kind of support system does SM have IRL? It may be that SM feels safe here, and she needs the support to get her through the most difficult time of her life. THis isn't a cakewalk for her, and she is most definitely going to need support to get through it. I know that some days(mostly nights, since I couldn't sleep) even just reading stories here helped me heal.


Now, to get to this. HAve you even used the words "affair" "adultery" "infidelity" while speaking to your children about what you did with OW? THis isn't the first time you referenced your affair, and talking to your children, as sorry you lied about your "friendship" with OW. Also, you placed right on their laps the fact that YOU felt badly when they were crying because YOU were tearing their life apart. And then you told them that you would never leave them. Now, that would lay all of the responsibility in the future, should you and SM separate, at SM's feet. Not fair.

I also get, through most of your posts, that you feel like you have nothing to offer your family, since you don't have a job. You DO have something to offer your family, that has NOTHING to do with your lack of a job, which is currently temporary.

When you apply for jobs, do you and your wife POJA the jobs you will apply for?

What does your UA time look like for this week? What will you be doing during that time?

LH,

I'm glad you're posting as well....

I'm going to reinforce something I told you the other day;

You've got to STOP bringing up the things you've done to help your marriage recover; Like the job, N/C with your mom, putting the bike for sale, etc.

Every time you bring them up, you are TRIGGERING YOUR WIFE!

She is going back into trauma every time these are brought up.

If you hadn't had an affair, the job, the bike, contact with mom, etc. would NEVER be triggers, but guess what....

YOU DID!

AND THEY ARE!

Stop patting yourself on the back for any of what you've done and move forward with your marital recovery in mind.

You know how much I care about you and your family and I just needed to give you a small all in love....

It's no wonder your wife is ready to tear your head off with the constant barrage of triggers slamming her day and night.

You need to remember that DJ's and AO's are killers for her and they will make her think and say, "you're never going to change". Because she sees you repeating the same behaviors over again and again. Then, she triggers, then she is hurts, then she looses love for you...... again!

Every trigger is like you stabbing another small knife back into the same wound again, reopening it and causing her to run from you in fear of it happening again. You've got to get the triggers you are causing to occur under control, OK! You must recognize them and prevent them.

You cannot afford to delay your recovery, as I mentioned before, you do not have the luxury of time on your side. You have too much you need to learn and too much work to do.... And a very small window to accomplish it in.

BTW, How are you doing with reading the books I asked you about? One of Dr. H's books every week, remember?

p.s. I agree with Scotland. Your wife needs to be on the Marriage Builders website every day reading and so do you. If she were online reading porn or something that would be a different story but it sounds to me like she has used her time here in a productive way that has resulted in great improvement in your marriage.

Would you feel the same way if she was with you for 15-20 hours per week?

Oh ya, I also wanted to ask if you completed the RC inventories?

She told me I would never have the heart and be the men Never Guessed and Her Papa Bear are because they love their wives and they post...I do not like the internet, I do not like that I will continually come and check to see what is posted...I hate the internet because it I feel it has taken so much time away from our family.

I will not comment for HPB; I do not know him. I get the impression that you are more familiar with him than am I.

I happen to agree with you about a great deal of the impact that the internet has had on our lives. I resist, as you do, most uses of the damn thing, and don't use it well.
- I do not "facebook"
- I do not "linked-in"
- I do not "tweet"
- All of my typing is of the two-finger variety.
- I sometimes write the same note three times to guarantee precision.

And the amount of time I spend on the internet has become a source of great friction between Bride and I. As a matter of fact, it has started to become a serious threat to the happiness of our marriage. No [censored], LH - I'm giving you the straight story here. I hope you believe me.

But I spend hours each day online ON THIS SITE! And I do it why? Certainly not to better my own marital situation (like I said, it's beginning to have the opposite effect.)

I do it because it appears through whatever alignment of planets, some of the insights and interpretations I can offer to other posters here actually strike home. My words might bring clarity to their thoughts, or strength when they're faltering. Often it's a bit of humor, or more often a well-placed boot in the rear, that gets them moving forward again. (Note to LH: Pay special heed to the boot reference!) And in every case, the goal is to help some stranger recover from infidelity and try to go on with a marriage.

So, if NG, and HPB, and PB, and CP, and others, none of whose marriages are at risk, will invest thgeir time to correspond here, it's somewhat incongruous (ie: FUBAR) that someone in the midst of the fight to save his own marriage would protest at the effort.

And we're not even addressing "L'il Miss 68,000 Posts", who, if you do they math, has AVERAGED about 17 posts per day, since Noah docked the Ark!

So go ahead, try and tell me why your posting two or three times per day, to help not a stranger, but your wife, recover, is such an imposition! (Dude, I warned you about the impending "boot"!)

I'm glad we had this little chat.....

StrongerMe,
I liked that today when you responded to me on my post. I liked that I feel we resolved some things without having an argument. I also liked that both of us can look back and say �Read what I wrote. I didn�t say that.� This goes more for me because I was mistranslating what was in the Love Busters books and what I read last night. When I looked at it in black and white again with you, it was more clear. I do not disagree with your responses to my post.

I will continue to read more tonight. I have been dragging. I usually start daydreaming when I read and that is why I quit because I will read 3 to 4 pages and can�t tell you what I read. The more I read last night the more it seemed to hold my attention.

How do you feel about writing me what I am doing wrong?

How do you feel about giving me course corrections so that I am not wasting any time with your recovery?

How do you feel about scheduling our UA time tomorrow afternoon for next week?

To my recollection that our POJA to a job is:

Do not take any job that doesn�t support our marriage.
Do not take any job that is an off shift.
Do not take a job where I would have one on one contact with females.
Quit any job that makes you feel like I am putting it before you and our recovery.
Do not take a job where I would have a lot of travel.
Please add or delete any corrections.

Reading progress:
I am on 129 of 311 in Love Busters. I am highlighting away and working through it.

RC inventories:
We completed them but haven�t had much UA or RC time with each other that was positive.

With our daughters:
I spent the whole day with them. We made up our list for Walmart while we ate lunch. The DD11 liked it because she typed it on the Ipod and would check it off in the store when we put it in the cart. It started snowing and they wanted to get back to the house. We made �Dogs chili� it won a chili cookoff. It is 2 cans of Pintos, 2 cans of white northern beans, 2 oz. Ranch dressing, 2 lbs of hamburger and 2 lbs. of sausage. 15 oz of Pace Picante sauce and 2 cans of crushed tomatoes. Cook your hamburger and sausage together and drain the grease and rinse with hot water. Put it all in a crockpot on low and stir every 40 minutes. We all made it together and then played the Wii. Then they came up and made two cakes of cornbread. DD14 trained DD11 on how to make cornbread. When SM got home they ate supper together and talked about their day. This is one of my happiest times.
Everyone helped clean up after supper and on to bedtime routines.
I am off to read Love Busters and hope you have a good night.

StrongerMe,
You had asked me about taking anger management classes. You know one of our mutual friends that his wife got him to go to anger management classes and the general consciences of everyone is that she did this to document so she could have it in court that he has a anger problem.

My feelings are to take Dr. Harley�s approach and stop it now. To always think of something else to that will calm me down.
You offered to take the anger management class with me. I felt you were doing a POJA. This would take away the feeling that any of this was to document. This was to unite and move forward. You have admitted you have abused me. I agreed to take anger management classes with you. I felt we were moving forward and then you took it off the table the next day. You said you were not going to do it. You said I acted smug about the agreement.

All I know is I felt you weren�t trying to set me up and we were doing it together. I was happy we had accomplished a POJA. I was happy we were doing something together that would help our relationship.

I feel this is put on the table and not to do anything and just let it sit there because you have backed off and stopped it. I want to do something and I want to do it with you. I am asking do you have any other suggestions?

Haha, you do know me... THAT'S ME TOO!

LH,

This line of thinking is why your marriage is continuing to fall apart.

You're worried about being set up...... REALLY! (Where is Mel's Fog Horn)

You keep saying you're all in? But that attitude is definitely NOT all in. Can you see this? It's extremely foggy thinking....

Look, when I went all in I signed a Post-Nuptial agreement giving my wife EVERYTHING. That's right, EVERYTHING! That's what "All In" looks like!

Want un-hindered recovery?

Then cease fighting everything along the way and really go "All In"......

There are no worries or fears when you go "All In" because you have a confidence that surpasses understanding.

You have got to stop playing around with the mental games. Your old mind is a barrier, obstructing a new one from being created, with new behaviors and new blessings.



You know I'm available anytime, here or a phone call away....... I'm praying for you guys! Please beware of those that have not survived an affair giving you advice. (And remember, Surviving doesn't always mean their marriage survived). There are many wolves in sheep clothing.

Dr Harley's approach is to take Anger Management classes. Surely you admit you have a problem with your anger, so why wouldn't you do everything necessary to protect your wife and your daughters from your anger?

It is ludicrous to ask your wife to take an anger management class when you and I both know that her "angry outbursts," while unjustified, are a reaction to YOUR ABUSE. You are poking her with a stick over and over again 24/7 and then condemning her when she reacts. That very ploy is abusive and manipulative.

And if you don't take anger management courses and do something about your abusive behavior you will end up in court. If you do take it you are less likely to land there.

Your friend had anger management courses used against him in court because he was an angry person. If you are an angry, abusive person it will be used against you in court. So if you don't want to end up in court, you should take the course and STOP being abusive.


You manipulated her into this. sigh..

She should not reward that little manipulation by going along with you. I would apologize and commit to stop manipulating her.

Longhaul, stop playing games, my friend. Sign up for Anger Management and apologize to your wife for trying to manipulate her. How DARE you call her an "abuser" for her reactions to your abuse? I would not be surprised if your wife has serious post traumatic stress disorder when this is all said and done from enduring 5 years of abuse. MY GOD, a person can only take so much!

LongHaul is thinking like a RENTER.

EXACTLY!

Mel, even his posting here directly to his wife is manipulation. He is not looking for help. He is posting to say "SEE I'M DOING WHAT YOU ASKED! NOW GET OFF MY BACK AND LET ME GET BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE"

He reminds me of someone else I know...

I have enthusiastically agreed to do an anger management class on my own. I have written SM a letter and sent it to our coach. I will be talking with her about it tomorrow morning.

We talked last night. You talked and read journals to me that you had dated back to �06 to now. This would be 2 years before the affair. Our marriage has been going downhill since then.

The first 2 years of friendship/dating and 11 to 12 years of marriage I had the mind set of give you 90% of me and expect 10% from you in return. I always put you first. I will address that I have not done this the past 6 years. I use to treat you like a queen and thought of you that way.

I know that your intent is to protect our marriage. The things that were put on the table were for me to separate from and put you first. You want me to love you.


The big love busters for me from you:

Dismissing my opinion a lot of times in regards to our children.

Excessive internet usage.

Not having UA and RC time with you. Not having RC time with our children.

Remodeling our house caused massive amounts of arguments. We only have a few more years with our children at home. I do not want to move to another house that we have to remodel. It is not healthy for me or our relationship. I would like to make it through this and then downsize when the girls are gone. I would be open to doing this earlier if everything would look stable. It withdraws love units when I hear I hate this house. We saved and rented for 11 years for this house. Everything was done here for you in my mind and eyes for 3 years. The front yard was completely dug up. I took 7 dump truck loads off and completely landscaped it for you so every day you came home you would see a clean yard with flowers and hope it would make you feel happy to see it. The same was for the inside of the house. I do understand your feelings about the house but I would like to work on other issues first before anything is done about the house.

Bringing up we argued �X� amount of times. You threatened to leave �X� amount of times. You didn�t love me. How could you love me if you did these things? You keep documentation of these things and you read them and bring them back up. You keep documentation of what the OW sent you and you read this. I feel that you shouldn�t be going back and reading these things for us to move forward.

I have no problem with transparency and honesty as long as it goes both ways. I have a big problem that I do not have a job and not one dollar coming in and you opened a secret account and depleted our money in it. You told me you wouldn�t let me go hungry. Having a secret account is dishonest.
This makes me feel like you have taken everything out of my room and then you let me have a mattress if I behave well. You will keep and add stuff but will also take it away. I also feel like I am a dog that has pooped on the carpet and you are rubbing my nose in it but now you want me to eat it.
Anything that causes and argument because I hate arguing.

The big love busters from me to you in my opinion are:

Angry Outburst- This has been documented since �06 but not the first 11 to 12 years of marriage. I have never felt I was better after this happened. I have never felt you got what you deserved after this happened. I have never wanted to hurt your feelings. I do know that AO�s have happened and I will go to an anger management class because I do not want it to ever happen again. I want it to stop now. I want to stop arguing and stop hurting your feelings.

Independent Behavior which leads to DJ and SD. These would be things that I would plan without taking your opinion into my thoughts. I would make plans and just fit you into the schedule where it would fall. I know now and should have then known this made you feel I didn�t love you.

I make you feel like I do not love you. I do not put you first. I use to always do this but I quit.

The things I do for you start strong out of the gate but then I back off and just let it drop. Doing the Love Dare book which was 40 days of doing love dares for your wife, it made you feel like I thought you weren�t worth 40 days of dares for me.

Never say another harsh word to you or our children again.

Never say anything about your family.

Be honest and transparent with you about everything. Talk to you about everything in my life and how I feel about it and what I want to do. Discuss this with you.

Want to be with you. You will feel this when I really want to.

Treat you like I love and support you in everything.

Stop arguing and twisting our conversations around. This seems to be working by posting to you. When I am posting, I am writing directly to you which makes you feel I do not glaze over things. I do not like writing to people I do not know. I also like that you respond and everything is black and white. Neither one of us can say what the other said. It is all on paper. We read about 10 to 12 things and answered them quickly with no arguments. I had one question and we reread it and I agreed on your answer. I am the biggest offender of twisting conversations.



This is my POJA questions to you:

How would you feel about me taking a spiritual leadership role in our house? This is not a role of wives submit to your husbands. You know we use to have a partnership and I have never been �I am man hear me roar.� I have always floated through this and never stepped to be what I should be. I have not lead our children in the direction to have the foundation that they need. I want to do this through prayer, reading and studying the Bible. This would be changing my heart from the inside out.

How would you feel about use talking more about every decision in regards to our children?

How would you feel about minimizing internet usage?

How would you feel about wanting to and having UA and RC time with me every week?

How would you feel about RC time with our children?

How would you feel about staying here a few more years until our children leave for college?

How would you feel about not wanting to move to another house that we have to remodel? If we move, it would be a new or newer house that doesn�t need remodeling?

How to you feel about the smoker, sink, prep table, ect.. going with us?

How would you feel about trying not to bring up we argued �X� amount of times?

How would you feel about trying not to bring up you threatened to leave �X� amount of times?

How would you feel about trying not to bring up �You didn�t love me?�

How would you feel about not saying �How could you love me if you did these things?�

How would you feel about trying not to read any documentation from �06 to �12 that is negative?

How would you feel about transparency and honesty from the both of us? This is email, facebook, cell phones, bank accounts and paying bills.

How would you feel about writing any POJA�s you would want me to do?

How would you feel about us doing anything and everything to stop arguing?

How would you feel about me taking an anger management class because I never want to say another harsh word to you again? I will make the appointment and start ASAP.

How would you feel about me giving you 90% of me and expecting 10% in return like it was in the first 2 years of friendship and dating and 11 to 12 years of our marriage?

How would you feel about me making you feel loved and putting you first every day from this day forward? By using MB principles to recover and rebuild the love you we use to have for each other. This would also be me taking the lead in this.

I know that your intent is to protect our marriage. The things that were put on the table were for me to separate from and put you first. You want me to love you.


Through your documentation, your conscience should be clear that you could walk away without any regrets by how I have treated you the past 6 years. I can say you have given me your very best and I have taken it for granted and not appreciated the gift I had. I want to do MB with you and rebuild our relationship and love for one another. I want you to accept and feel my love for you again. You are my best friend, first and only choice and I want to be with you the rest of my life. I will have true happiness being with you in a MB principle relationship.


With saying all of this, I understand if you don�t want to do this or can�t do it. I do not want to argue anymore. I do not want to say another harsh word to you. The both of us are at our lowest points. I have caused you severe levels of internal trauma. I am truly sorry and would like to spend the rest of my life helping you heal from this.

At this point, I feel that I dig into the relationship united and move forward with you or we separate. I feel a separation will soon be followed by a divorce. I do not want to argue one more time. I would have true happiness to be with you but I would also be happy if we are not arguing. I am so unhappy where we are at this point.

Please take your time with this, pray, talk to anyone with MB. I will support your decision.
Love You and I am so sorry,

Do you see how contradictory these 2 statements are, Longhaul?

Is she supposed to keep her feelings about the house to herself because you don't like hearing it? If she does that, then how will you know when something makes her unhappy? Her negative feelings about the house are important information that you need to know. It is like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. You might not like getting the notice, but the alternative is even worse.


You have made a unilateral decision about your home that does not take her feelings into account. Otherwise known as independent behavior.

What if she told you it "withdraws love units when I hear that you think my time on the internet is excessive?"

Mel:
WE have some members who have gone through Angerbusters and I wonder if you should check into that?

Longhaul
I will check with the coach in the morning on signing up for Angry Busters. I will let you know how it goes.

Mel
The second big thing that stands out to me is that your wife clearly doesn't believe you love her. If she is going to be healed, that condition can't stand. I would sit her down and ask her SINCERELY what you are doing wrong. Or better yet, send her an email and ask her to answer you via email. That way, you avoid any potential arguing. ASK HER to give you course corrections so you are not wasting your time.

LongHaul:
How do you feel about writing me what I am doing wrong?
SM response:
I am not comfortable telling you are doing wrong. I would prefer to tell you what I need.

LongHaul:
How do you feel about giving me course corrections so that I am not wasting any time with your recovery?
SM response:
I am not comfortable giving you course corrections.

LongHaul:
How do yo feel about scheduling our UA time tomorrow afternoon for next week?
SM:
I would love to schedule our UA time for next week.

LongHaul:
To my recollection that our POJA to a job is:
SM:
I agree with the listing of the job attributes that would complement our marriage.

LongHaul:
I am asking do you have any other suggestions?
SM:
I would love to have a husband that cherishes his wife and children, treats them with respect and love, and puts them first.

Most were positive, some were duds but we made progress.

Originally Posted By: Longhaul does not want to move to another house that we have to remodel. It is not healthy for me or our relationship. I would like to make it through this and then downsize when the girls are gone.

You have made a unilateral decision about your home that does not take her feelings into account. Otherwise known as independent behavior.

If all of our arguments started when we started remodeling. I don't want to add this to the equation while we are in the other fires we are trying to put out. I feel we have enough on our plate.

What if she told you it "withdraws love units when I hear that you think my time on the internet is excessive?"

Originally Posted By: LonghaulI do not want to move to another house that we have to remodel. It is not healthy for me or our relationship. I would like to make it through this and then downsize when the girls are gone.


If all of our arguments started when we started remodeling. I don't want to add this to the equation while we are in the other fires we are trying to put out. I feel we have enough on our plate.

What if she told you it "withdraws love units when I hear that you think my time on the internet is excessive?"

That is fine that she doesn't want to tell you what you are doing wrong for now, but wants to tell you what she wants you to do. She did say you were VERY GOOD at meeting her needs when you guys aren't fighting!

I agree 100%. The issue of the house should be put on the back burner, IMO. I would ask her if that is ok for those reasons.

My point is that if she hates the house, she should be free to say that. Hopefully, you BOTH agree that the issue of the house be put off?

I believe they are.

Mel what is your response to this:
I have no problem with transparency and honesty as long as it goes both ways. I have a big problem that I do not have a job and not one dollar coming in and you opened a secret account and depleted our money in it. You told me you wouldn�t let me go hungry. Having a secret account is dishonest.

But, you KNOW she has that account, so it is not a secret. My response would be that she is not convinced yet that separation is not right around the corner since you were just discussing it.

This is a secret account that I do not have access too. Do you think it is dishonest?

If you ever make it down south and if we ever make it through this you and your husband get a free steak cooked in the man cave for helping my wife and I through this. I will give your husband a big hug because I don't touch woman. Thanks again for your input.

No, it is not dishonest or secret because you know about it. My husband has a bank account that I do not have access to, but I do know about it. In your wife's case, I think she feels very uncertain right now and thinks this might still lead to separation. Once she feels better about the situation, I bet she changes this, don't you? But I don't think she will feel reassured if you make demands.

I will take you up on that!! Thanks for the offer, friend!

As Melody says, it's not a secret account. SM opened a new account because your affair and all your (LH's) arguing have made her feel UNSAFE and FRIGHTENED. When you make your wife feel safe, she will be pleased to put the money back into your safe, happy marriage.

Your distrustful attitude towards your wife, when you have been so untrustworthy and hurtful and careless yourself, must be draining her love bank big time. Just stop it.

The person who should STOP ARGUING here is YOU.

By the way, I do see signs of progress in your attitude, I think you're getting there. Good on you.

I enjoyed yesterday with you. I know you were very tired and you�re back was hurting. We were able to get in some time with MB workbooks but I would like to do more tonight.

DD11 was told 15 to 20 times to take a shower. It was hard for me to keep quiet while you kept telling her. I would go to you and tell she is still not in the shower and was trying to let you handle it. I am happy she apologized to you for being disrespectful and not listening and obeying.

When I was in the car with them this morning, we made plans for them to have showers, homework, packed up for in the morning and in the bed by 8 p.m. I did this so they will be thinking of it all day. I will lay with them and talk for them to be asleep by 9. This will give them 9 hrs. of sleep.

How do you feel about them getting 9 to 10 hours of sleep a night?

It made me feel good that you talked to DD11 about staying with her cousin while we do our date night on Friday night. We also have a date breakfast and doing MB on Saturday morning. This makes me feel happy.

I will see you today at 12:30 for lunch. I will have you chili warmed with cornbread and sweet tea. I am looking forward to just talking with you in the car and hearing how your day went so far.
Love You,
LH

SM has not responded to any of my POJA questions that I posted. I am fine if she would print them out and just give them to me but she can post them if she likes. I just want some feedback. If it is so important for me to post for her, then I feel she should respond back to me. I am trying to put her first in everything I do. Give 90% and expect 10% in return from her.

I bring up things and she brings up things that we shouldn�t. I was telling her about reading about the types of liars in the love busters book. She told me she thought I was a born liar and she thought I beat the polygraph test. How can we move forward when these things I do are put down like this?

I sung like a canary before the lie detector about every little white lie I had told through the years. I certainly didn�t want to damage anything by not passing the lie detector for us to start moving forward. I was hoping that was the point where we could start rebuilding. I also realized I thought I was going through stress while taking it, SM was going through more stress because she was wondering who she had been married to all these years.

I called an anger management clinic yesterday. I have a book from a friend on anger management. I also ordered AngerBusters 101 on Amazon yesterday. This is the book Markos recommended in one of his post. I never want to say another harsh word to my wife or my children. I have never been happy I got mad at her, I have never thought she deserved the outburst, and I have always felt bad about hurting her feelings. Where I was going wrong was that I was not taking responsibility that I am in control of my reactions of her DJ and SD. I was wrong in ever having one angry outburst towards my family. I am in control how I react to our children not obeying and arguing with each other. I am practicing relaxing by having positive thoughts and not releasing adrenaline into my system.

Our lunch went well on Monday. We had a two hour date last night and just talked at supper. We went and walked around town just talking. Then we went to go buy her some shoes. When we are walking and talking if makes me think back when we were dating and first married. We would talk for hours. I told her I would have like to have held her hand during our walk but I would leave it up to her to grab mine. It never happened but I really had a good time with her. We have another date night Friday and Saturday morning so I am planning for it to be positive as well. I am really looking forward to spending more UA time with her.

Why didn't you hold her hand? And then tell her it was up to her?

LL, I'm going to weigh in on LH's position on this. Given their history, supplemented by the principle that the BS sets the course and speed of the recovery, the initiative of ANY physical contact for the time being lies with her.

If she takes the step, indicating her openness to accepting the EN of affection from LH, that would be a positive sign. If he were to grab her hand, almost certainly she'd view this as his trying to decide what she needs, when, how much, and how often.

As a BS, I would have WANTED my WH to grab my hand. I would have been too resentful and emotionally torn to take that step. I would have seen taking his hand as a sign of weakness and vulnerability, at a time when that was the last thing I wanted to portray. I would want him to show me that affection, and to show me that HE was vulnerable. Just sayin.

I think it can go both ways here. LH could have always said, 'Can I hold your hand? Or are you not comfortable with that?'

I will do that today. I did put my hand on her last night while we were sleeping. She said it was too hot, but she said we could hold hands while we slept. This made me feel good. She has always said my body temperature is like a hot water bottle which is good in the winter but not in the summer.

She did give me a goodbye hug this morning when she left for work and it made me feel very happy. I feel I am usually the one that initiates affection so it is huge to me that she gave a goodbye hug. We both have always given and initiated goodbye hugs but things have been very cold since last week. This is a positive mark for us this week.

This is my fault by not putting her first and not treating her like I did when we were first married. I really like this dating thing and find myself not being able to hold back positive thoughts of things to do and say to her. It is getting easier to say �How would you feel about �.� Practice, Practice, Practice.

We will let time be the litmus test that I am consistent with words and actions. My goal right now is to finish the Love Busters book and an Anger Management book this week before the AngerBusters 101 book gets here in the mail. I read strictly for information and not pleasure. I have a short attention span while reading. I have read one book of about 135 pages since 1985. I like to read articles about technical problems and how to fix them. Love Busters is holding my attention and the more I read the more it is holding my attention.

Thanks for your advice and I will be a hand holding machine from this day forward.

Or, "I'd really like to hold your hand. How would you feel about that?"

My thought were in alignment with NeverGuessed. I can also see and understand the viewpoint of what unwritten posted and I am good with doing that too. I will do either as long as I can hold her hand and she is happy about it.

Our 18 year anniversary is next week on Valentine�s Day. What would be any MB�s advice because I would like to start planning? I am open to any suggestions as to that night or even making it a weekend getaway. I also would like to be asking SM about options and �How she would fell about � � because she does not usually like surprises.

Did you tell her it's a test? That she only has an allotted time to complete it in?..... I mean come on, doesn't she understand how important you are?


She requested that you post what's going on with you, questions and isssues you are struggling with,,,,, as GENERAL things to discuss with those on the forum! I don't believe she ever meant for you to just post questions to her. You post so others can give you feedback and insight into everything that is going on.



Although this may seem like a good idea to you, it's not!

You need to give 100% of yourself in this marriage.

She decides what she gives! Your expectations of her should be ZERO! Anything she can give you is a blessing, and needs treated as such.

You go on no matter what.....

So she had a bad moment..... and now..... you're remembering something that happened in a tiff and doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.


On a different note;

You were born a sinner, just like the rest of us.
That would actually make your wife correct. No one had to teach you to lie, you just tried it and discovered you could. You were born with that nature.

As a Christian, you have the choice to resurrect the old man/liar and enjoy the sinful lusts of the flesh (already been doing this, not been going well either) or put him down and start feeding the new creation God has made you. I recommend the later....

IMO,

You need to use the programs suggestions here.

You do this by saying;

I would love it if ________________ !

Fill in the blank.

I would love it if we held hands.

Then wait for her response. Her response is up to HER!

But you need to ask appropriately.

Saying out loud "I'm leaving it up to you" just takes away anything good and sounds very un-romantic. Does that make sense?

You'll get it, it just takes time and practice.

We held hands while we slept last night. Each time I woke up she was holding my hand and it was very romantic. We have our date night tonight and tomorrow morning.

We have a POJA that I write the letters to her and save them as a file. I will post questions and issues I am struggling with so others can give me feedback and insight. We will agree with what goes on the forum because she says I listen to the feedback on the forum. I am going to check again to make sure I have the POJA correct before I do anything.

The letters to her help because she can answer them and respond. She did answer the questions and we went over them last night. We can go over them and we answer questions quickly and hopefully have more UA time.

It is very helpful for me to go back and read the post. In the earlier post, MelodyLane posted MB focuses on creating romantic love in your marriage. I have not been doing this for the past 6 years like I did the previous 14 years we were together and it has had a domino effect. The thing is to take your advice with the MB principles when you have a bad moment you go on practicing the principles. Thanks again for your input and I am back to do my reading.

Tell her how wonderful you felt that every time you woke up she was holding your hand...

We have been getting along well. She holds my hand while we are going down the road. She also has been snuggling and holding my hand when we sleep. She has been showing signs of open affection and initiating first contact.

I have finished Love Busters and now am reading Surviving an affair. We planned our UA time and family time for the next week. We have been having major problems with our children being disrespectful and disobeying. I have a huge problem with it but haven�t had an angry outburst. StrongerMe and I have been sitting down and talking about the problems with the kids and I feel we are having unified discussions. I feel we have had our best flow of a positive relationship. When we have something negative, I try to just look at it as a speed bump and we keep moving forward.

She brought up wanting more details about the OW late into the night one night this week. I answered her questions to the best of my ability but told her at the end that I didn�t see anything positive come out of it. I feel it just makes her mind think of more questions that I can�t answer. I have given every detail I can think of. I have tried to think, �Is there anything the OW could say that StrongerMe and I haven�t talked about?� I answer her questions but I know it doesn�t make love bank deposits for me. I do it because I am hoping it helps in her healing. I feel it contributes to more pain and more questions that torment her.

I am happy anytime I get to spend with StrongerMe. She talked to me about a movie �The Butterfly Effect� that she had seen part of but not all. This type of conversations just makes me melt when I am talking to her. I want to hear her thoughts and am holding on to hear the next word. I will even interrupt because I was saying what I thought would happen. I Love talking to her about things like that. I love spending time with her and talking to her. I am hoping the weather is about to warm up so we can start doing some RC time outside. I am having hope that we are finally starting recovery and have positive thoughts about us about 98% of the time. Any other negative thoughts come from our children�s behavior, job, ect.. As far as StrongerMe and I, I feel very positive.

Goals:

I need to get a job that supports our marriage.
Continue 15+ hours of UA time a week. Document it readjust it for improvements.

Continue 15+ hours of family time a week. Document it readjust it for improvements.

Stay united on discipline with our children.

Do not argue. Do not argue. Do not argue.

Never say another harsh word to StrongerMe or the girls.

Read, Read and Read.

I have more but I am tired of typing on the computer and I am going to read.

Be more patient with them. They were betrayed by you and need time to learn too.

This rebuilding with them will require years of effort as well as no lovebusters toward them as well.


"LOTS" of D.J.'s in there my friend.

Your job is to answer the questions, not to decide what she can or cannot handle. She's a grown woman capable of handling more than you. You are just afraid when these questions come up again. Fear not! The truth will set you free.

Remember - Your job is to love her, care for her, cherish her and honor her.


Otherwise, it sounds like you're making progress.

Stay the course, eyes forward!



[/quote]

LH, this is a very encouraging post.

Have you read other people's threads on here? Other BWs?

One thing about your DDs is that you should understand that we are often telling BSs that WSs don't make good parents, because while they are wayward, they really don't. There are obviously some things that you are going to make up for with them, as well as SM. As long as you stay the course, and keep up, they will see that your changes can be for real, and they can start to trust in you again.

If you have just finished LB, can you look back at the post you made and see what HPB means?

I have had very good days with DDs the past 4 to 5 days. I have learned to just keep quiet when they get home and let them decompress from their school day. When I am quiet they will start talking nonstop about their day and when SM gets home they will tell her again at supper when we eat. I have also talked with both of them before bed several nights this week with them welcoming it.

SM and I have had some love busters come up this week and we seem to work through them. In the past, it would have turned into a big argument but now they seem to be speed bumps that we are rolling through.

I went to take a test today for potential employment and had some IB today. I stopped by two motorcycle shops to see their prices on their used bikes to make sure our price is still lower than what is out there. I didn�t tell SM because I didn�t want her to get upset about hearing anything about a motorcycle. We have talked and I apologized for not communicating. The goal from here forward is to tell her everything about my day. Even if I think it will hurt her feelings or bore her, she will be happier knowing everything and knowing that I am communicating everything to her. I am still a work in progress.

While I was trying to post last night, SM brought me a text that my dad�s brother had been found in a coma and he was brain dead. They have him in hospice and they are just waiting. This sent me into a tail spin because I haven�t seen my dad since before Christmas. I wanted to see him in person. I wanted to hug him and make sure he was ok. My dad is one of twelve children. This was his closest brother. When I was growing up we were always with his brother�s family on the weekends. I also had the fear this could be a call about my dad and how I would feel if I had not had any contact since Christmas. How I would feel as a son if something would have happened to him and his last two months of his life I hadn�t had any contact with him.

SM and I talked about all of the emotions going through my mind. Her first response when she got the text was for me to call my dad. I did not want to do anything that would make her feel I wasn�t supporting her or putting her first by having contact with my dad. SM has not had a problem with my dad. I called my dad and I could tell he was very upset about his brother. The more he talked the better he seemed to get. I felt so much better talking to him. SM and I talked after the phone conversation and I feel we were on the same page.

To answer the questions of Scotland:

Have you read other people�s threads on here? Other BW�s?

I do. I need to read more. When I sit down for just a few minutes to read it will turn into 45 or an hour. My main focus has been to read the MB�s books. After Love Busters, I finished Surviving an Affair. I am now reading AngerBusters 101.

By reading Love Buster, it has given me the big picture of everything. When I first started reading it I was highlighting everything I thought SM should be paying attention to. The more I read I highlighted any key points that I thought I needed to pay attention to that would help with recovery and make our marriage better.

HPB�s posts have always had clarity to them for me. One of my problems is it makes sense and the book makes sense but it is hard to break the habits that have been happening for years. I feel my biggest are Independent Behaviors and Disrespectful judgments.

It is hard for me to stay the course and stick to the MB�s principles during a Love Buster because of the years of bad habits. The emotions are so high and cause everything to spin for me. I have to keep telling myself. Do not speak, listen, think, do not speak, do not speak, read, think, listen, do not speak, do not speak.

Is there anything that has �101 of the most disrespectful judgments?� I want to read more examples of this.

One of my goals is to go back through and reread the MB�s books to make sure I am burning the principles into my brain.

It is hard for me to stay the course and stick to the MB�s principles during a Love Buster because of the years of bad habits. The emotions are so high and cause everything to spin for me. I have to keep telling myself. Do not speak, listen, think, do not speak, do not speak, read, think, listen, do not speak, do not speak.

Hi Longhaul,

I find it useful to say to myself when I am on the verge of an angry outburst or disrepsectful judgement......."Do I really want to do this?" Once you get the hang of that expand to "Do I really want to do this or do I want to be happy?"

It kind of tricks the part of you that feels justified in these bad behaviors.....because you are telling yourself you can always do it later. If you learn to postpone soon you will not want to do it anyway because you will see you get better results being kind and respectful.

Janna

Great advice, Janna!

My H still struggles with controlling his IB, which was the cause of terrible problems between us. He understands at an intellectual level that he should consider me before he does what he wants but it hasn't translated to the emotional reflexive level yet, so he keeps slipping up. He catches himself sometimes - sometimes even before he opens his mouth - but at other times, he is again so focused on what he wants that he returns to being argumentative, selfish, and disrespectful.

This drains my LB big time. And my H has become horrified by his reflexive selfish self, he hates it, but he keeps stumbling. We're a work in progress, like you and SM.

However, my H and I take heart from Dr. Harley's saying that "thoughts follow actions". My H was impressed by the story of the man who didn't meet his wife's need for affection and so Dr. H made him follow a strict list - kiss his W when he woke up, say goodbye and give a kiss before leaving for work, call at smoko time to say "I love you" etc. It was unnatural at first for the man but after a while he did it so routinely that it seemed so strange to him when he didn't do one of the things on the list that he would go out of his way to do it.

So, maybe it just takes some rewiring and laying down new habits so that the intellectual knowledge becomes part of your emotional self.

� think that because the will is there on my H's part (and I think on yours too), it'll work out in the long run. It's hard work to rewire yourself but the alternative is so unpleasant and costly that my H is determined to succeed.

I can see that same determination in you.

We have been having a good three weeks in a row. Just finished reading Angry Busting 101 and SM says that I haven�t had and AO in the past several weeks. I have had a tone with my children but not her. I have never had road rage or getting angry when there is a long line. In years of teaching, I have only lost my temper one time when a student told me I didn�t know what I was talking about when he was trying to take apart a two piece rim with other students around. I made him get them out of the class immediately and then talked to him about what he didn�t know about because a guy about 2 years younger than me had his head taken clean off of his shoulders by one of those rims. We call them widow makers. We went over the safety precautions and he was to work on them at his house. We talked about it the next day and he apologized for not following safety in the lab. I know the main goal is not to have AO toward my family and to treat them better that I treat any stranger or friend.

I am still having trouble waiting on 3 females when it is time to go. I shoot basketball in the driveway, shoot squirrels in the woods and work on solving the rubik�s cube until everybody makes it to the vehicle. This seems to be working.

We have decided to let SM to handle the discipline and for me to just keep depositing love units in the girls banks. Let them have as many positive times as they can until things look like they are getting better.

DD11 told SM to shut up yesterday. I had a real hard time with this one. SM and I have been together for 20 years. I have never told her or my children to ever shut up. I just kept quiet and let SM handle it. When it was bedtime, I just laid with the girls until they feel asleep. My goal and prayer is to never say another harsh word to my wife or children again. One day at a time.

I feel the happiest I have felt in a while. SM and I are having long talks and we have our date night tonight. We had our recreational activity on Saturday. DD11 wasn�t feeling well and it came up that we may not make the time. I pulled out our plan and scheduled UA and Family time that we agreed to on Sunday. We went and had the activity and everybody was smiling and talking at the end. It was a good time.

SM is holding my hand while we sleep and we are planning to have a family vacation starting this Friday that will last until next Saturday. SM and the girls are very excited about the trip and it seems to be picking everybody up to a very positive attitude.

As I go back and read I just want to say �Thanks� to everyone for supporting SM. I do not know enough to know where I am in this recovery. If I am still in the fog, if I still have a wayward mentality, if I am 15% or 5% through this. It took a long time for our marriage to be where it is and it will take time to break bad habits. Through reading, listening, talking, praying and practicing MB principles I have hope we will be there. I am just trying to support SM in recovery and stay on the MB�s path one day at a time.

We had a good vacation last week. We had two arguments over DD11 behavior. I was wrong and am letting SM handle DD11. Ordered His Needs, Her Needs for Parent and I am trying to read that now. Have had a good week with the daughters and they have been very sweet.

We have had strep, flu, and sinus infections in the past two weeks here. We haven�t been doing well on UA time or RC time because of sicknesses. Trying to get everyone feeling better and reorganizing our UA time and RC time.

I had a friend whose mother when to the doctor for shingles and they checked her out and sent her home on Monday. Her son found her dead on Tuesday. My uncle passed away. This was my dad�s brother who had a tumor on his pituitary gland. My dad has a tumor on his pituitary gland. These things start me spiraling and really wanting to have contact with my parents.

Relationship between both sets of parents:

SM�s parents:
They live about 5 miles away from us.
SM talks to her mom on the phone on a regular basis on her way to work and she will see her maybe 4 times a year.
SM hates her dad and never talks to him. He had a head injury in 1980 when SM and I were in the same 6th grade class together. He was never a good father before and has never been good since. SM�s mother will always take care of her father and will choose him over any of her children. Her mother is a good person but will have arguments with SM over stupid stuff and turns on her.
I say hey to her and hug her the 4 times a year that I see her. She sees our kids only about 4 times a year.
I have helped her mother more than any family member or friend through the years with fixing her house, selling her house, finding her a new house, keeping her out of jail ect� She will turn and has turned on me time and time and time again when I get through helping her.

I feel the same if not worse about SM�s father as she does.

My parents:

They live about 8 miles away from us.
I would talk to my mother every day. I would see my parents about twice a week. They would pick up our children from school 2 to 3 times a week just because they wanted to see them. They were going to move 5 hrs. away and had purchased property to build a retirement spot near the beach. They cancelled everything because our children didn�t want them to move. Our children are their only grandchildren. They are their life.
They haven�t seen our children since before Christmas.
SM is ok with my father. She supported and encouraged me to call him when they found my uncle ( his closest brother)
My mother has been communicated to on every level about our recovery. I am in agreement with SM that she hasn�t supported our recovery. She has not kept quiet and will voice her opinion.
I want to write my mother a letter about her not supporting our marriage and expectations that we have of her. I want SM to look over the letter and get any additions or deletions to the letter. Make sure SM is 100 % comfortable with the letter.

My fear is that my father will take my mothers side even if he knows she is wrong and then I won�t have a relationship with him.

I would be fine with talking with my parents like SM does with her mother. I would like to have contact with my parents. I want SM to feel like I am supporting her and our marriage.

What advice do you all have on anything and also what to put into the letter?

Hey Longhaul, so good to hear from you! I emailed your wife last week and she told me y'all had been on vacation. I was at the same place you were!

Anyway, I went back and pulled up this post of mine from January about the issue of your mother. What do you and your wife think about it? How does SM feel about the situation now? What are her ideas?

p.s. I would not be bringing up your relationship with HER parents or it is going to inflame the situation. It will sound like you are playing tit for tat. You don't even want to do that.

That angle completely ignores the fact that your mother caused alot of damage to your marriage and seems to have absolutely no remorse for that. THAT has to be addressed and corrected before you should consider allowing her back into your lives. You have enough damage to overcome without adding that.

So, don't be bringing up her parents, LH. Don't play tit for tat with her unless you want to make the situation WORSE. You might be able to bully her that way, but you will never get an enthusiastic agreement that way.

Perfect advice!

Haven�t posted in a while because our hard drive crashed but we are up and running now.

We are staying the course with MB and spending the 15 UA hours each week. I have had one AO in 2 months but the goal is zero.

I received some good advice of keep quiet and stop debating your opinion. Sounds simple but is a bad habit to break and it makes it harder when StrongerMe keeps telling me you are not talking to me and I need you to talk to me. I feel I am doing better. We talked for about 3 hours yesterday and about 4 today. Talking has never been a problem for me. Saying the wrong things is where I need to improve.

I feel that through our UA time and education of MB since Novemeber that I understand more of the inner thoughts of StrongerMe. Something inside is saying, �don�t say that� or that I just feel really bad and sad for StrongerMe is going through. I just want her to feel better and stop hurting. Time can really be a slow thing sometimes.

We have also added listening to the radio show each night together while we lay together in the bed. I like this and it is soothing to me. StrongerMe wanted me to do it and I feel like we are bonding when we do it.

Both daughters and StrongerMe have really opened up and have been extremely warm towards me since our family vacation together.

Still no job since I resigned on Dec. 19th. You do not receive unemployment if you quit a job. I have never been unemployed nor do I know anything about government assistance. I have worked every day since 1986. I have appealed it but they have declined it. I pass employers test for jobs but in the interview when I tell them the off shifts do not support my marriage they look at me like I am from Mars.

I had an interview 2 weeks ago and it went well. They are supposed to make a decision this week but I haven�t heard anything. I feel this is very strong for me to get this job. It will be the day shift. It is about three miles away from StongerMe�s work and we can carpool together and eat lunch together. It is about 50 miles away from my previous job. It is also a state job so my retirement time will roll over. I was 15 years away from being able to retire when I resigned. StrongerMe supports it and says it will support our marriage.

One of the negatives to the job is that I will be driving into the sun in the morning and the afternoon. This is my daily reminder to never forget what I have put my family through but also that it is nothing compared to StrongerMe thinking about it 70 times and hour. Hopefully we will be making love bank deposits to and from work so that in years to come StrongerMe will think about it less and less.

I will keep you all posted on the job and hopefully I will hear something today.

Longhaul,

I will be praying you get this job and things will work out for you.

Listening to the show is something my H and I frequently do. We also read Dr. Harley and Joyce's devotional book, "Draw Close", in the evenings before we went to sleep.

AM

What a wonderful update, Longhaul. I am so happy to hear you are keeping your AO's under control. That was causing so much damage. What a great idea to listen to the radio show in bed!

Praying that you get a great job!

Longhaul,

StrongerMe posted that you have been hired for the job described above. Congratulations. I think it will be good to get working again. And being able to carpool and have lunch together is such a plus.

What EPs will you put in place at work so that StrongerMe will feel safe and protected? How will you interact with the women who work there?

StrongerMe also posted about a couple of your recent behaviors. I am amazed and discouraged about some of the things you have said and done. I won't write what I am thinking, other than to say that you still have a long way to go to be the kind of man a woman would want for a husband.

AM

Agree.

As I mentioned to you there are some threads I recommend you read.

Here's one I think could shed some insight;

LINK to longwayfromhome's thread

I'll be back with more...

Then read this one;

Link to Mortarman's thread on the role of husbands and wives

Longhaul! Did you honestly play the tired old "I'm leaving" card again? How many more times do you think you can play that card before she takes you up on the offer?

You have playing that card for YEARS when you weren't getting your way in order to throw her off balance. It is a manipulation tactic. Was your daughter right when said you were just faking it because you didn't have a job?

I have to tell you I am very disappointed you are still playing girly head games with SM. When will it be time to man up and start facing your marital problems like a grown up?

Long Haul is long gone. Sad. ML: You are a Godsend!

ML: You are a Godsend!

So were the ancient plagues of boils, frogs and lice. Certain not-to-be-named waywards should pay heed!

LH I don't understand not will I ever you have a wife that will take you back after you assaulted your family with infidelity. You know what you need to do yet you don't and play immature games! I think you should shape up or ship out your kids don't deserve to be treated like this. I hope they don't follow your lead when they get older. You can make this right and follow the program!

Long Haul, I haven't read all your story, but I read enough.

I must say that I don't understand why adulterers get so angry that their betrayed spouses are so hurt and need to further protect themselves from abuse and betrayal. I think I would be more upset if my betrayed spouse didn't appear to care!

I can tell you what will happen if you don't lose the sense of entitlement and resentment of your wife for being devastated by your abusive behavior and adultery.

She will gradually grow to the point where she loses all love for you. She will gradually grow to the point that she would be delighted if you would leave. Your actions are already showing her that you don't love her as a man should love his wife, so why should she continue loving you?

It doesn't matter that you ended the affair on your own. You showed her, through your affair and the lies and abuse, that you don't love her above all else except God.

You need to show her some actual remorse for doing something so horrendous to her. You need to court her! You need to give her some darned good reasons to love you! Just the fact that you breathe is not enough!

Your behavior and attitude have made you into terrible husband material!

You are extremely lucky that your wife is willing to rebuild your marriage, but you need to do the work without resentment and the attitude that you have displayed. The world does not revolve around you!

You have a lot of work to do, but it will be a lot easier if you lose the attitude!

You should be GRATEFUL that your wife is still willing to give you a chance, but that won't last forever.

LongHaul, in case you are reading this thread,

...My H became a wonderful man after he became truly deeply sorry for the suffering he brought into our lives through his affair. Not only was he deeply sorry, he also made some radical changes in the way he conducts life, thanks to MB.

1.) He abides by the EPs I have set up. There was some tweaking and some backward steps, but mostly it's been a success. Now they've become a habit he no longer questions.

2.) He used to have angry outbursts, be disrespectful, dishonest, and make many decisions as though I didn't exist.

NOW, his new way of living is to never argue or have angry outbursts. He always considers me in his decisions and is honest with me.

3.) He rarely met any of my emotional needs.

NOW, his new way of living is make sure he actively meets my ENs. And it's more than just a couple of them. He says he wants to meet ALL of them, even though I haven't asked him to. And meeting my ENs has become a habit for him and has proved to be rewarding, so that it's pretty much effortless for him now.

He told me throughout the last couple of years that he deeply wanted to become the kind of man I could love and admire and then started practicing all the habits that would lead to that end.

And NOW? He is deeply satisfied with his life. He used to be on anti-depressants and he has not taken them in two years and doing WELL.

He has become someone that not only can I love but that HE can respect. He really likes the way his life is going and is so happy to live in a way that can be respected by his peers, his friends, and his family.

He has become a truly likeable person, not a Jekyll and Hyde, like he used to be.

In return for all his efforts, he has a wife who is very happy to meet his needs. I respect him and admire him and show him this in many ways.

If you do not make the necessary changes, you will lose the best thing that is in your life: your wife will lose her love for you; your daughters will lost their respect for you. You will have all the freedom you want but will have lost what is most important.

If you make the changes necessary to become a good husband, it will be worth all the effort it takes to get there.

Three weeks ago I went to get my hair cut and with the conversations I had with the hairdresser my wife told me she was uncomfortable about me going there.

I said I would not go back. I did not argue. I did not resent it. It bothers her and I want to move forward. I did have personal conversation and I am trying to work on this. One is if I have it with a female I do not talk to them again. Two is not to do it again.

I met my new boss who is female and also a lady I will be working with maybe 5 times a year. I only talked about the job and that is all. I do not think I will have to interact with them a lot but my goal is to only keep it as business.

I told SM all about my day, who I talked to and what we talked about. I do not have a problem with this. I feel good that this makes SM feel better.

Where this went south is when SM told me I should not have any female service providers. I tried to do POJA with her and ask if she would go with me when I went to the doctor once a year for a checkup and go with me when I get my hair cut by another person. She said no. End of story. Her way or no way.

If I don�t do her way then I am not supporting our marriage and I am not protecting her. I would be happy to shave my head and never go to a doctor if it would help our marriage.

It doesn�t seem to end.

I was happy I have a job and we could carpool together and eat lunch together. I felt this was a better job than what I had. I get to spend more time with my wife and I am working about 3 miles away from her. Then I have a sit down on my personal conversations and I can�t go to my doctor anymore.

I told SM that I agreed with everything that MelodyLane had written. I do not disagree with anything. She told me I makes her angry when I say I don�t disagree.

I can not talk fast when we are talking because makes her feel unsafe. I slow it down and breathe slower.

I can not move my wrist when I talk because makes her feel unsafe. I try to hold my hands by my side when I talk.

Now I can�t say � I don�t disagree with that� It makes her mad.

I told her last night if it makes her feel safe and protect then I will not go to my doctor anymore. I didn�t go to her last time it was a nurse practitioner at a CVS but she is female so I don�t know what I can do now.

I was on a flight from Dallas and a lady had two children. I would say 4 and maybe 9 mths. The 9 mth had a dirty diaper and was crying on the plane. I was in the aisle beside them and I told her I would watch her son while she went to change the diaper. I would hope someone would help my wife if she was in need. I didn�t want to have sex with her. I didn�t want to know anything about her. I just helped a person in need.

I have done this my whole life and have never wanted to have sex with any women if I helped them.

I saw two women that were in need of help last week. I asked SM � Do you want me to stop and help them?� She said no and I kept driving.

I have a problem of being friendly with people but it is my goal to never have personal conversation with a woman again. When I talked to the ladies this week, I only talked about work.

If I do have personal conversation with a female I will tell SM and we can work from there.

I have repeatedly told SM that she may think we have the tools to have a productive conversation; we don�t use them correctly and have bad habits also.

I had an affair 5 years ago. It stopped. I kissed her 2 years ago. It is over and has been over.

I quit my job because it had triggers for SM. Not to end the affair because it was over.

I am 60 miles away from there so there will not be a chance of it ever surfacing again.


I do not drive in that county for anything.

I have not had alcohol since Nov.

Have not taken any job that didn�t support our marriage.

Try to always say �How would you feel about ?�

Spend 15 hrs. of UA with SM every week.

Talk slow and hold my hand down.

Post even though I HATE IT , HATE IT , AND HATE IT.

I have agreed to the EP�s because I have not shown I have good boundaries with women. I want SM to feel safe and secure.

I went to pick up SM yesterday for lunch and drove her to see exactly where I was going to be working. I know she is nervous because I am getting a new job. I also went to go see her because she was in a car wreck yesterday and her neck and back was hurting. I feel we were having a great lunch.

You can read her details because I always get them wrong and she is more correct than me.

In summary, SM locked her heels in on the female doctor and so did I.

I am trying to recover but I am not Dr. Harley or Her Papa Bear. I have a long way to go and I don�t know if I have what it takes to make it.

I have about 8 or 9 bad behaviors I am trying to change at once.


I have been told by wise counsel not to talk because I debate and to keep quiet.

I have been told by the coach do not say these things. Do not talk!! Talk about positive things.

SM tells me �I need you to talk to me.� I try to talk but keep it on positive and then I start debating.

I try to stop the conversation and tell SM we have been talking for 50 minutes and haven�t made any progress. I just makes her mad. We will talk again for 2 hour and not make any progress. I tell her we are not using the tools of MB. It makes her mad.

I took the kids to school today and took their books back to the library. Stopped to get a biscuit. There was a guy I use to work with that really taught me a lot and I haven�t seen him in years. I waved at him and he stopped and we started talking. I didn�t call SM because I was letting her sleep. When I got home I asked her how her back was and she started cursing for about 2 hrs.

That's should have you all up to speed from my end.

Longhaul, my friend, the problem is that here we are months into this and you don't have extraordinary precautions in place. The big gap is that you are STILL having personal convsations with females. The hairdresser, your former coworker to just name two. And I am astonished that you would ask about the OW. EPs are NOT issues for the POJA, they are very basic steps that should be taken. These are steps that are practiced in healthy marriages.

When your wife pointed out the problem to you, you played the "divorce" card again, which is nothing but abuse and manipulation. It has to stop. You see, you have much more to overcome than most cheaters. Your abuse of her was much worse than what we typically see because you not only had an affair that spanned several years, it you lied about it for years. S this is WORSE than what we typically see.

Punishing her for pointing out triggers is abusive and manipulative and only makes it much harder for your marriage to ever recover. Sorry doesn't cut it anymore, LH. I you continue to play such head games with her you might find yourself out of a marriage, yo can't afford more of this.

"I am trying to recover but I am not Dr. Harley or Her Papa Bear. I have a long way to go and I don�t know if I have what it takes to make it. "

All it takes is willingness and if you don't have that then she seriously needs to reconsider her future because she is not safe unless you implement EPs. She is asking you to take precautions that should have been there ALL ALONG.

Point taken.

You do talk a lot, don't you!

The resentment in your words is palpable.

Imagine that. You had an affair and lied about it for five years, and now your wife has found out about it and YOU"RE resentful! I'm at a loss to know what there is for you to feel resentful about.

You've been given a chance to have a life with StrongerMe and your family, instead of living in a bedsit making appointments to see your daughter, the way you deserve. You've been given a chance, but there are conditions attached to that, and so you threaten divorce on a frequent and regular basis.

Keep talking, LongHaul. You're talking yourself right out of your marriage and into that bedsit.

English translation for "bedsit" = room for rent.

And Sugarcane makes an excellent point, LH. You had an affair, lied to her for years, threatened her with divorce for years and *YOU* have the resentment? Do you see how CRAZY and backwards that is?

You are not the victim here, my friend!! You are the PERP. She would not even be here if it weren't for your actions. She doesn't deserve any of this!! All she is asking is that you implement normal precautions that healthy marriages observe. They should have been implemented years ago. If they had been followed all along you wouldn't find your marriage on life support.

For a betrayed spouse, violating extraordinary precautions is an HUGE setback in recovery. It tells the BS, "I am not safe" and makes huge LB$ withdrawals.

Engaging in personal conversation with your hairdresser and asking a coworker about OW were huge violations, LH. There is no getting around that.

You compounded the big issue of violating EPs by arguing with her and trying to negotiate (POJA) what additional EPs needed to be put into place.

Do you realize that EPs are not negotiable?

Do you realize that EPs are in place to not only prevent another affair but to help a BS feel safe and protected so that she can begin to heal?

I think you do but you don't care because you are too busy feeling sorry for yourself.

Loan haul,

Reading your responses literally makes my stomach turn, my husband acted the way you are acting for 3 long years after his A ended and the result was that I totally utterly and completely lost any iota of love I had for him. At the lowest point I couldn't care less if he had been hit by a bus on the way home, that s how much his abuse effected the way I cared about him.

You had an A, you showed bad judgment and you made some horrific and abusive decisions in your marriage. Not your BW. So how can you be in any position to debate any boundaries that would make your marriage safe again is beyond me.

Falling out of love with my WH is hard enough but is reversible however the day I lost all respect for him was the day our marriage truly hit rock bottom but he woke up just in time to realise that his behaviour would cost him his family and turned things around.

It's been two years but there are days that I still look at him and feel like running a mile from him and the pain he caused me.

He is trying his hardest but the damage done while he wasted time stropping about boundaries, resenting restrictions and debating non negotiable safety precautions I needed to be in place has made it much harder to recover anything.

Your BW is very close to her tolerance threshold and she will stop loving you and she will walk away if you do not change your attitude and be grateful that she has the grace to give you the chance to redeem yourself after such a vile act of violence against her marriage.

You keep asking when will this end, when will the boundaries and restrictions be lifted, the simple answer is never because the pain and suffering and triggers your wife will endure at your hands will never end for her. They may lessen in intensity and frequency but they will never disappear.


Sounds harsh and impossible? Well it's not and you walking away or threatening divorce will not make matters any easier infact it might look like the easy option but its not, if you walk away you will NEVER get the chance to redeem yourself and you will be condemning your BS to a life of more pain and suffering.

If my extreamly entitled and selfish former WH can turn things around so can you. It's a case of deciding to let go of your independent behaviour and be prepared to be in a great marriage where you won't need to go rescue damsels in distress or get into personal conversations with strangers to feel good about yourself, you will feel good because you are a decent, loving and safe family man.

In that long, wordy post in which you listed your many admirable qualities and displayed your resentment at StrongerMe for for her unreasonable demands that you stop talking to women, you failed to mention that you asked someone how OW was doing, just a short time ago.

I wonder why you were able to list so many fine things you have done for your wife, but did not mention this particular stab in the back. Do you see it as a minor slip that does not take away from the fact that you would do anything to save your marriage?

Or is it something you will threaten to divorce her over if she shows upset over it?

I do not have a problem with not having personal conversation with women. I do not have any resentment for any demand of me not having personal conversation.

I do not see how I can not have conversation with women. One greeted me at WalMart and one was at the check out. They both talked to me. I said �Thank You to one� when they said welcome to WalMart. The other asked me how I was doing tonight and I said �fine.�

I didn�t not ask how the OW was doing. She was transferred to another school and I asked if she was still at the school.

I do not think I would threaten divorce by her being upset by this? I do see it as something I should not have even asked.

I will keep my post shorter and less wordy on any qualities.

This tells me you are not safe for your wife if you don't understand the difference between saying "thank you" to a Wal-Mart clerk and having personal discussions with a woman. The fact that you admit you don't know the difference tells me there is a much bigger problem here than I realized.

I hope StrongerMe is reading this because she needs to know the problem is much bigger than she realized. This is WHY you had the affair. Since you don't understand what a personal conversation is, that means you are likely to do this all over again.


You asked about her.


Why did you play the divorce card then? Why all the resentment in your posts today? It comes through loud and clear.

............but I don't believe you don't know the difference. You are not a d*mbass. You only play one when you aren't getting your way with SM.

I would appreciate it if you would drop the d*mbass ACT. It is insulting to your wife and insulting to those of us who have been here rooting for you for months.

It would be much better for your marriage, though, if you played those games here with US instead of your wife. Your wife is at the end of her rope. We don't care if you say stupid things. It doesn't bother us a bit to your call you on it.

Like Doc Holiday said in Tombstone: "I'll be your huckleberry."

A WS serious about recovery and serious about the BS's feelings would never play such games. Who the heck said anything about saying hi and thank you to a clerk at the store? My 10 year old would understand the difference.

Instead you should OWN UP to the fact that your relationships and conversations are completely inappropriate and you should take whatever steps are necessary to avoid these situations.

Discussing working out and recreational activities (motorcycle riding) with a female hairdresser REEKS of flirting and inappropriateness. I NEVER discussed working out with a male during my marriage -- even prior to MB.

The female doctor that you so conveniently mentioned you only see once a year for a checkup is actually a friend that you have had over for dinner. Again, completely inappropriate. It is very clear to anyone who is familiar with MB how you ended up having an affair and how if you don't cut it out you will cross the line again.

Not to mention...all of my male family members uses a male barber and a male doctor, LH. Why you would make a mountain over a molehill over this issue just screams insensitivity towards your BS. You can say "I would do anything include shave my head but it's never enough" but that won't distract us. Those types of games don't work here.

You can write five pages about all the wonderful things you are doing for your BS but if you are being insensitve, abusive, lovebusting her, threatening divorce, and not implementing ironclad EPs, then it doesn't really matter much.

Again, telling your BW after you have violated EPs the solution YOU WANT (for her to attend you to your hair appts and doctor visits) is not MB and arguing with her about it and declaring "I would do xxx but it's never enough!" screams of manipulation and insensitivity.

I can't help but come to the conclusion that we have been wasting our time with you all along, because you never really wanted to restore this marriage. That is to say - you never wanted it really badly. You wanted it if it was easy enough and if you could get to stay at home on your terms, without sacrifice and without too much work.

You were never desperate to put things right the way HerPapaBear was when he threw his marriage down the toilet. You were never desperate to keep your wife and kids. Your life won't end if you lose them; it will still be worth living.

I think you have acted in a cowardly fashion, getting StrongerMe to become so exasperated that she ends the marriage that you were happy enough to end all along. It goes without saying that someone having an affair is prepared to risk his marriage. You never changed from that stance, and it was cowardly for you to push StrongerMe until she could not take any more.

May God forgive you for what you have done. You certainly don't deserve your wife's forgiveness.

I agree looks like I will give it my half hearted try and when she can't take it and end it its not my fault, I "tried". For shame!

(I believe I owe this thread an apology, as I intended to have this posted by this morning, and spent most of the day in re-write mode!)

Well, my friend, it appears you have decided that SM is unduly influenced by people who have (separately) come to the conclusion that your behavior, actions, and preferences make it inadvisable for her to remain in the "back and forth" relationship you insist on offering her.

Specifically, you reportedly condemn the advice she has gotten from DD12 and NeverGuessed. That really provides quite the spread of talents and insights, wouldn't you agree? One, after all, is over-excitable, immature, and unsophisticated, driven primarily by the basest impulses of fear and anger. The other is a twelve-year-old girl.

You seem to have posited that YOU get to decide the extent of the EPs that will be required (permitted?) for the return of SM's piece of mind. You do not. SM is the only voice that will speak to that matter.

In reality, the question is which adjective is ultimately going to be applied in describing your actions over the last few weeks. There is only a choice between two.

It would be seriously easier on us, SM, and finally yourself, if the descriptor could be IGNORANT. Ignorance in and of itself is not at all a pejorative term. We ALL have degrees of ignorance of varying topics, and frankly, start out as totally ignorant of every new discipline and field of knowledge. An ignoramus, willing to learn (in effect, shedding that ignorance) is a delight to witness. What foils the innocence of pure ignorance is usually arrogance, in effect yielding the position of, "I'm told I do not know something, but I choose not to believe that statement. I know better than my advisers in this matter." Therefore, foregoing the proffered opportunity of learning, the subject remains in the state of ignorance.

The alternative explanation of your behavior would be MALEVOLENT. This supposes that the knowledge of the subject has been gained beyond the characterization of ignorance, leaving only intentionally negative actions directed at the other party. This is a tough proof. How does an outside observer determine that knowledge is not lacking, but good-will is seriously absent, leaving the subject equipped with the necessary knowledge, but unwilling to use it for the common weal.

So, LH, let's not force old NG to choose, with the risk of being wrong, and accruing additional (and ill-affordable) delay in your program. Just tell us friend: Are you still ignorant of the damages your ongoing hissy-fits are causing, or malevolent in their commission?

How are you doing??

Did you read the two thread links yet?