Marriage Builders
Posted By: Micalex Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 05:09 AM
Hi,

This is my first post. Hoping I can get some guidance and advice. I just (4 months ago)ended an ongoing affair which lasted about a year. After reading Dr. Harley's book (Surviving an Affair) the nature of my marital breakdown reminds me of Amy's and Jon's only I'm Amy and my wife is Jon.

I know that the kind of affair I had was brutal on my wife and the most difficult to recover from. I think I've left only one or two love units in her account.

However, my wife and I have decided to give our relationship a chance to recover and become better than it ever was. It's been difficult because even though we've read the books we still don't know what's the very next step.

Do we (A) Sign the marital agreement and fill out the emotional needs questionnaire or(B)List my extreme precautions and give them time to work as proof of me taking every opportunity for our recovery to work. Maybe it's none of the above. Either way I need help or advice in understanding what people's first steps towards recovery looked liked.

Part of the reason why my marriage fell apart is because my wife and I started spending less and less quality time together. We had been friends for 10 years before we were married and I really looked at her as being my best friend. It's still proving to be very difficult for us to schedule time to be together and even work on these first steps. We both know that Dr. Harley suggests a minimum of 15 hours a week;so any advice on how to get over the residual pain and anguish and time management tips would be helpful.

Looking forward to being apart of this forum and learning from those who are on the same path to marital recovery and building as I am.

Posted By: MrWondering Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 05:37 AM
It's late and I'm heading to bed but wanted to give you a quick welcome to MB. You've done so well just starting a thread and posting. I'll send over a couple former wayward husband friends of mine.

I also think you might consider asking to have this thread moved to the surviving an affair forum. Much more suitable for your situation as you've just ended your affair.

First question...is OW gone...as in out of your life forever and you don't see her, work with her and won't even possibly run into her around town???? You say it's been 4 months since "it" ended but has it been 4 months since you've seen or spoken with OW?

We just really really want to see and know that there has been a permanent nail put in that illicit relationship first because moving forward with MB is pointless until the affair is REALLY REALLY REALLY completely over FOREVER.

Godspeed,

Mr. W

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 11:38 AM
Hi Micalex, welcome to Marriage Builders. The first step is to affair proof your marriage and change the environment that led to the affair. Where did you have your affair? Where did you meet this OW? Have you ended all contact?

The first step is to end all contact with her and change your boundaries with members of the opposite sex. You and your wife could have had a great marriage, but if your love bank is open to others, then you would have still had an affair. Correcting your boundaries is a first step.

Another first step is to never spend the night apart again. Spend all of your leisure time together and open up your lives to each other. That means sharing all pass words, email accounts, everything. She should have access to everything.

The affair should be exposed to family, close friends and your children. If the OW is married, her husband should be notified by your wife. There are many reasons for this, but mainly the more people who know, the more people to hold you accountable and support your marriage.

So once you have been affair proofed, the next step is create a romantic marriage using the basic concepts of Marriage Builders. A good guide in this would be the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. They sell it for $11 on this website and it complements the books, SAA and Lovebusters. There is a worksheet in the back of the book that will help you schedule your undivided attention time.

Quote
We both know that Dr. Harley suggests a minimum of 15 hours a week;so any advice on how to get over the residual pain and anguish and time management tips would be helpful.

Her residual pain will take about 2 years to go away, IF you make amends to her following these steps. If not, resentment can linger forever. The way you find the 20+ hours of UA time is to put aside less important things. Sit down once a week and write out your schedule. Line up babysitters, if you have small children, and make plans for the week. This time is best spent out on dates meeting the intimate emotional needs.

How is your wife? Does she want to come here and post?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Do we (A) Sign the marital agreement and fill out the emotional needs questionnaire or(B)List my extreme precautions and give them time to work as proof of me taking every opportunity for our recovery to work. Maybe it's none of the above. Either way I need help or advice in understanding what people's first steps towards recovery looked liked.

IMO, it's all the above!

You cannot sit back and rest at all. You must also make every effort to resist becoming discouraged as you proceed.


Please read this thread;
Link to thread on Extraordinary Precautions



Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 01:10 PM
As Mr.W & MelodyLane have already asked about No Contact, Ill sit back and wait for your replies to their questions before commenting any further.

Quick FYI, I've been where you are.... MB does work.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Part of the reason why my marriage fell apart is because my wife and I started spending less and less quality time together.

Welcome to MB.

1. Is your BW also reading this thread?
2. Where/how did you meet OW?
3. To whom was your adultery exposed?
4. Did you write a no contact letter and have it approved by BW?

Again, welcome.

STEP ONE:

Make certain you never see or speak to or run into OW ever again.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 04:01 PM
Hi

Thanks so much for your replies.They were a lot quicker than I expected. WOW!!!

In response to the questions by Mr. W and Melodylane...YES... the relationship with OW was terminated 4 months ago. There has been no contact since then. I met OW whilst living in Canada. She was unmarried. I was a manager at a retail clothing store and OW was a customer who I would talk to from time to time. After about a year if knowing her we started talking about personal problems and a relationship started which led to the affair. Once the affair was exposed I separated from my wife (BS) and lived with OW for about 7 months. During that time my BS moved back to our original home in the Caribbean. The relationship with OW also started going downhill very quickly once the realities of life with this person were clear. I decided that the relationship was doing more harm than good to my mental health and made the decision to leave.

Initially I moved to another end of the city we lived in then finally when I realised that this person still wanted to be in my life i decided to move back to the Caribbean myself. Initially there was a real struggle not to reach out to her (just to find out if she was ok. Guilt and shame were my best friends but now I am not even tempted.

Of the 5 years my wife and I have been married this had been my only affair. I thought I was very good at defining my boundaries but my BS and I have discussed correcting my boundaries with people of the opposite sex as well as some other extreme measures including sharing access to email accounts etc.

My BS is ok. I know she is still in a lot of pain and it hurts me so much to know that I am the cause of this pain. However,she had been been the one that introduced me to Dr. Harley's books whilst the affair was still active and encouraging me to open up to others on this website. I am so happy she had done so because I know not only does it give me a sign of hope but no matter how things eventually work out we would both become better people through this process. I will ask her if she wants to come here and post.

Thanks for all the encouragement guys including the advice on purchasing the workbook as well as your advice HerPapaBear on not sitting back and rest.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 04:05 PM
OK. Here you go ....

Click the link and watch the 30 minute video.

*** LINK ***
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 04:10 PM
Hi PepperBand. Yes my BW is also reading this thread. She has been a member of marriage builders for some time now I think. My adultery was exposed to my BW first and now everyone we both know...knows. I never wrote a no contact letter. I simply let the OW know how I felt and that the relationship was a mistake and that we should stop seeing each other.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Hi PepperBand. Yes my BW is also reading this thread. She has been a member of marriage builders for some time now I think. My adultery was exposed to my BW first and now everyone we both know...knows. I never wrote a no contact letter. I simply let the OW know how I felt and that the relationship was a mistake and that we should stop seeing each other.
Have you changed all contact information?

Posted By: armymama Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Hi PepperBand. Yes my BW is also reading this thread. She has been a member of marriage builders for some time now I think. My adultery was exposed to my BW first and now everyone we both know...knows. I never wrote a no contact letter. I simply let the OW know how I felt and that the relationship was a mistake and that we should stop seeing each other.

Welcome to MB. It is the best place for gaining the information to recover a marriage after an affair.

Does your wife post on the forums? If so, what is her name on here?

AM
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 05:44 PM
Yes. All contact information has been changed.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 05:45 PM
Good question armymama. I know that she does post but I don't know her member ID. I'll have to ask her.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 06:13 PM
Are you living together (with your wife) now?
Posted By: armymama Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 06:34 PM
Micalex,

Did I understand correctly that you are now living in a different country from OW?

You referenced the "Surviving an Affair" book. Have you read it? Have you read any other of Dr. Harley's books, i.e. are you aware of Marriage Builder's principles?

AM
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/17/13 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Yes. All contact information has been changed.
What EPs have you put in place?

Have you affair proofed your marriage?

What EPs have you given your BW?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:35 AM
My wife and I are not living in the same place right now. I have read the Surviving an Affair book. My wife has also read that book as weel as a couple others written by Dr. Harley including "His needs, Her needs". I have a few suggested EP's which have been briefly discussed with my wife however I have not suggested any for my wife. I guess I feel that I shouldn't be the one pointing fingers or making demands of her for fear that they are interpreted as selfish demands. I feel strongly that we need to actually be obeying all of the rules but my wife keeps saying that she wants to take things slowly. I feel like we are compromising because of fear of not upsetting each other' but to me the fact is that if we do not spend the time necessary together to discuss our emotional needs and our EP's then we will not go further as these to me are the first steps.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
My wife and I are not living in the same place right now. I have read the Surviving an Affair book. My wife has also read that book as weel as a couple others written by Dr. Harley including "His needs, Her needs". I have a few suggested EP's which have been briefly discussed with my wife however I have not suggested any for my wife. I guess I feel that I shouldn't be the one pointing fingers or making demands of her for fear that they are interpreted as selfish demands. I feel strongly that we need to actually be obeying all of the rules but my wife keeps saying that she wants to take things slowly. I feel like we are compromising because of fear of not upsetting each other' but to me the fact is that if we do not spend the time necessary together to discuss our emotional needs and our EP's then we will not go further as these to me are the first steps.
Extraordinary Precautions that you need to come up with to protect your wife. They are your promise to her to not hurt her again.

What conditions allowed your affairs? What Have you done to not allow the conditions to happen again?

How are you protecting your love bank from others (besides your wife) to making deposits?

What just compensation have you given your BW?

You had the affair and must do the work to repair the damage.

Your wife is very smart to protect herself.

Have you apologized to any of your other victims? Your children? Her family?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:46 AM
Also, what conditions have your BW given you to work on recovery?

Have you met those? How have you used the rule of protection?

Excellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:03 AM
The extraordinary precautions I've taken so far are:
(1) Moving away from OW. changing all contact information. Not interacting with her in any way

(2) Severing communication with other women I know had feelings for me or with whom I shared intimate information with. One of my close friends who actually encouraged me to go back to my wife and family is female though (godmother to my first daughter) My wife wants me to severe all communication with this person too but how do I do this when this person is always going to be in my daughters life.

(3)No time spent with people of the opposite sex.

(4) I want to give my BS access to all my email and bank accounts but shesays that she is not ready for me to do so.

I hink these are the 4 precautions that would prevent me from having an affair in the future. My need for recreational fulfillment is very high on list. S cutting oof all opportunity for fulfillment by anyone other than my wife would prevent it from happening.

My BS had asked that I take anger management classes; that I show proof that I had not chemical addiction issues (OW) had issues with addiction; and that all interaction with OW be severed.I fulfilled all these requests.

I have also been using the Rule of Protection.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:15 AM
Well simple get a new god daughter. You have to learn to put your wife first and is she is uncomfortable with this god mother then she has to go. Sharing intimate details with the OS cause affairs, a poster here recently had her own mother have an affair with her WH. No one is immune that's why you take EPs
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:18 AM
These are a good start.

Did you read HerPapaBear's list of EPs?

Did you listen to the radio clip?

If your BW wants you to severe contact with this OW, why wouldn't you jump at the chance to do it to save your marriage?

Is your marriage and your BW really your priority?

Do you REALLY understand how awful your BW feels? She needs to be your queen. Your EVERYTHING.

Are you coming back to your BW, down on your knees with your hat in hand, willing to do WHATEVER it takes to earn your BW back?

Why should she take you back?

Have you given her just compensation?

We see way too many Waywards coming on these boards trying to "pretend" to work the MB program, just to end up hurting their betrayed spouse again.

I would just give her all your passwords and prove to her you are 100% transparent.

Do not push her, but give her time.

What are her top ENs?

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:38 AM
I did read HerPapaBear's list of EP's and just finished listening to the radioclip. Everything listed or said is true. I I am not "pretending" to work the MB program. Took me a few weeks of reading the information on the website before I decided to join the discussion board. I simply think I've reached a stage where I need to get advice from others on what the initial steps forward looked like for them so that I know what to expect.

I understand fully the hurt that I caused because I've been on the opposite end of such pain albeit not whilst being married and I know that the pain I've caused is 100 times worst. I know things need time. Not pushing my BS at all. Sometimes I don't think I deserve her love or forgiveness for that matter but the point is that we decided to follow the narrow path to recovery and once I put my mind to something I'm fully into it. To not be that way is to set myself up for failure.

I would like to understand more though the entire idea of just compensation
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:42 AM
In the meantime I'll list out in entirety my list of EP's and give my BS 100% access to my email, cellphone and bank accounts so that she knows that I want to be 100% transparent.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
In the meantime I'll list out in entirety my list of EP's and give my BS 100% access to my email, cellphone and bank accounts so that she knows that I want to be 100% transparent.
Good.

Here is an excellent article on just compensation.
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Have you had any AOs?

How is your POJA? Are you working?

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:58 AM
What are your BW's ENs?

Have you thought about emailing Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 08:11 AM
Yes I have had a couple angry outbursts. The POJA has not yet been signed. BW wants to take things really slowly as I said in a previous post. I had to abandon my old job once I decided to leave OW. Still looking for a new one.

BW and I have only discussed our emotional needs. ENQ not actually been written out but she says her top needs are Honesty and Openness, Affection and Admiration.

Have considered and still considering emailing Dr. Harley.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 09:17 AM
You use POJA when you and your BW are making a decision together. It's used when you're negotiating. That can be used with even the smallest of decisions.

Has there ever been abuse in your relationship?

Have you seen this?
Anger Management 101
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I simply think I've reached a stage where I need to get advice from others on what the initial steps forward looked like for them so that I know what to expect.

This is going to take time. Although the path we all take for recovery may be the same, you cannot expect your recovery process to look the same as others.

We will help guide you if you're patient with us and with your wife.

What you must first understand is, recovery is not an event, it's a plan for a new way of living.
It's not 6 easy steps and then your done..... It's forever steps that are refined as time passes. But you can only do it one day at a time.




Originally Posted by Micalex
I understand fully the hurt that I caused because I've been on the opposite end of such pain albeit not whilst being married and I know that the pain I've caused is 100 times worst.

Unless you've been abandoned and thrown out like the trash by your wife, all the while knowing she was having sex with some drugged POS OM for month after month without one shred of concern for how it affected you and your children.....

You really have no understanding of the pain she has endured.

I know you mean no harm saying this, but it will cause your W to endure great pain if you maintain that you "understand" how she feels.




Originally Posted by Micalex
..... but the point is that we decided to follow the narrow path to recovery and once I put my mind to something I'm fully into it. To not be that way is to set myself up for failure.

Although you and I may see this as admirable....

This scares the hell' out of our BS's

You and I both demonstrated that when we put our mind to shutting out our wife's, we were fully into it!
When we set our minds to letting another person meet our needs, we were fully into it!

See what I mean?

Don't expect a pat on the back from your wife for having this A-Type personality. Yes we may be driven, but without the proper boundaries, our drive will lead off straight off of cliffs..... And our wives will always have the memories of what they experienced because of this self will run riot.

Stay focused on what YOU need to do for recovery. Do NOT expect anything from your wife for a long time.




Quote
Yes I have had a couple angry outbursts.

You do not have the luxury of AO's any more. Your wife shouldn't let you back in her life until these have been eliminated!



You asked about Just Compensation..... Read the articles on this web site, not just the forum. You can use the search tab and find them by typing in the key word you want to know more about.

Are you still drinking or smoking weed or using any drugs? Even casually?
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
However,she had been been the one that introduced me to Dr. Harley's books whilst the affair was still active and encouraging me to open up to others on this website. I am so happy she had done so because I know not only does it give me a sign of hope but no matter how things eventually work out we would both become better people through this process. I will ask her if she wants to come here and post.


You don't have a job and you've only made 10 posts in the last 30 hours. She asked you to post here so it appears to me you aren't really engaging but doing the minimum required to appease your wife. It appears your wife might be willing to give you a second chance....how desperate are you to save your marriage and relationship with your wife or do you just want to go through the motions and get your family back?

Other waywards arriving here have posted 10 posts an hour, granted you've already read the books and materials so you should be light years ahead of the game but I believe your wife likely wants you to post here so she can get a grasp on what you are thinking about her and this whole situation and also because she trusts us to be objective and either conclude that she is safe TRYING to recover with you or not. You may think we are just anonymous people on web but to your betrayed wife, we were likely her lifeline to sanity while you were off gallivanting about with another woman abandoning your wife AND children.

When things get tough...you disappear. What's different?

Do you think life just kind of happened to you? Did you just hit some bad luck? Were you unable to resist it, as in the old...we can't help who we fall in love with defense? Are you hung up on your childhood issues, because you aren't a child anymore and your kids need a man to parent them so they don't end up with their own childhood issues? Do you still think OW is a good person? If you are a Christian, have you considered the word "repentance"? What's repentance mean to you?

I need to find Mortarman's "Role of husbands" post for you to ponder.

We want you to THINK and we (and your wife) need you to respond. Just express yourself. You're bound to have some foggy thinking (we are all foggy to some degree or another) but if you don't put your thinking out there, then no one here can help you clear your head of nonsense and assist you and your wife done the road towards recovery. Also, as of now, I'm not impressed with your efforts and I think your wife should maintain a safe distance from you (and that's coming from a guy that usually encourages couples to live together during recovery).

Just talk to us.

Mr. Wondering

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:29 PM
How are you doing?
Are you eating well? Getting enough sleep? Are you finding time to exercise?

Self care is very important. You cannot afford to slip into depressive habits if you want to impress upon your BW what a great spouse you can turn yourself into.

The other benefit of self care is that it can help keep your "TAKER" happy.

Are you aware that AO's happen when your "TAKER" wants to take charge?

Originally Posted by Micalex
Yes I have had a couple angry outbursts.

Do you know what I am talking about when I discuss "GIVER & TAKER"?

Your "TAKER" is not necessarily a bad guy. He's looking out for you .... but at the expense of your BW. The "GIVER" side of you is not necessarily the good guy. He's willing to have your needs go unmet to make others happy.



Quote
The POJA has not yet been signed.

POJA is Dr Harley's tool to stop the struggle between givers & takers when a mutual decision must be made. You don't 'sign' POJA .... you practice POJA and you develop POJA into a healthy marital habit.

Edit to add:
Click the LINK to Buyers/Renters/Freeloaders in my sig line. This explains Dr Harley's Giver/Taker position.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dr H
The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy.

Originally Posted by Dr H
The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

Originally Posted by Dr H
" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.

Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "

The purpose of POJA is for neither spouse to suffer.
Thus a happy compatible life-style.
Is it easy?
No. It must be learned. Practiced.
Is it complicated?
Not really.
Is POJA beyond your capacity to learn?
I don't think so.
Old habits must be replaced with new healthy habits.
It's a system intended to make both spouses happy.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:46 PM
PS:

Lazy people hate POJA.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 03:56 PM
All I can do is listen to what you are saying. Again I am here for advice and guidance and I am extremely grateful for it. Sorry that I don't post as often as others. Honestly I don't like thinking about this issue every second of the day. Knowing th hurt I caused and dredging up still very recent bad memories is difficult. But I know that it shouldn't be. I haven't been drinking or smoking weed for a very long time even whilst I was with OW.

Yes my BS has been encouraging me to participate in this forum because I do not like sharing personal information on social networks so that is why I've waited so long. Had a conversation with BS last night and told her I do not want her coaching me on how to participate on this forum because that will just feed into her resentment that somehow I am not willing on my own.

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:03 PM
Yes I am trying to take care of myself. Yes I've read about the taker and giver inside me. Think I really need to pay more attention to the lessons on POJA.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Had a conversation with BS last night and told her I do not want her coaching me on how to participate on this forum because that will just feed into her resentment that somehow I am not willing on my own.

crazy Was your response helpful and reassuring to your BW? Did she feel the love bank deposit after your remark? crazy

Over 17 years ago, my dear beloved husband was just about where you are today. Up the poo creek with no paddle, and his canoe was about to tip over.
I had both feet out the door when Mr Pep said something to me that the marriage counselor told him to tell me. It's a secret code. Mr Pep still says it to me on a daily basis. And, I to him. You need to start this without expectations. And, you need to do this on a consistent basis.


Is there anything I can do for you today?

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Here is an excellent article on just compensation.
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Did you read this? Thoughts?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:11 PM
In response to a previous post/question. In November last year after deciding to leave OW... I enrolled in a Mental Health program and on leaving Canada I started going to private counselling sessions to deal with my challenges. I do not want to only be a better husband and father but a better person. If I don't Change then there will be no change in the relationship I have with others.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
In response to a previous post/question. In November last year after deciding to leave OW... I enrolled in a Mental Health program and on leaving Canada I started going to private counselling sessions to deal with my challenges. I do not want to only be a better husband and father but a better person. If I don't Change then there will be no change in the relationship I have with others.

I think the first point of change is one of attitude.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:49 PM
Agreed.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Agreed.

Would you say you are a happy person, M?
Posted By: armymama Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 04:56 PM
M,

You talked about having had angry outbursts. Have you ever been physically violent with your wife? You talked about an anger management program. Did you attend/complete an anger management program? Have you read Dr. Harley's material about angry outbursts? If not, the escalation of selfish demands, disrepectful judgements, and angry outbursts is covered in Dr. Harley's book, "Lovebusters".


AM
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:07 PM
Just read the article on just compensation. Really did not understand before how important the POJA is but now it is clear. I have to be honest in saying that previously all I wanted was for my BS to forgive me but really what I should focus on is ensuring that she as well as all those I've offended are justly compensated.

Thanks again BrainHurts.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Just read the article on just compensation. Really did not understand before how important the POJA is but now it is clear. I have to be honest in saying that previously all I wanted was for my BS to forgive me but really what I should focus on is ensuring that she as well as all those I've offended are justly compensated.

Thanks again BrainHurts.

hurray

Good job you!!!
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:19 PM
Yes i was physically violent. The truth is also that once I realized how wrong it was for me to become physical or to have angry outbursts instead of going to counselling for my problem I chose to confide in someone who eventually became my OW. Ironically I ran to someone who eventually became more physically violent than I had ever been. That in itself made me realize how terrible of a husband and I actually was and the guilt and shame led me to attempt suicide.

I knew that the only way to have any sort of a relationship with my BS which is what I really want or anyone for that matter would be to get professional help so I enrolled in a Mental Health Programme. Which dealt with my issues of anger, tendency to go into depression when sad and even engage in excesses when happy. I did complete the programme and then followed it up by continuing to go to individual counseling.

I did read Dr. Harley's material about angry outbursts in Surviving an Affair but I think I need to read his book Love Busters.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:28 PM
It is an ongoing struggle...every day I am learning and applying the new tools I learn. I guess a huge part of my problem is that I am so anxious to regain the love I lost. It hurts knowing too the damage I may have inflicted on my kids and the trauma caused to family members. I've not been the most patient individual...my work life has always been one of needing to get things done in the shortest possible time or eesponding to emergency situations. so in all of this one of the things I am learning is patience.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:30 PM
Well, experience can be a very effective teacher, if you pay attention!
Mr Pep is in AA ... I am exposed to many AA mottos. One of my favorites is:

Progress not perfection.

Mr M, I see you making some progress. More insight is headed your way.

Keep reading & keep posting. You will not 'get it' all at once, but if you keep reading & posting, you will get it.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I've not been the most patient individual...my work life has always been one of needing to get things done in the shortest possible time or eesponding to emergency situations. so in all of this one of the things I am learning is patience.

There is a season for all things. I worked in the medical field. I know how to respond/triage in an emergency. I understand the pulse quickening buzz of the ED.

Relationships can sometimes end up in the Emergency Department. But, that's not where they are grown.

Relationship are like a garden. You learn & read about how to grow things. You gather the correct tools. You prepare the soil. You plant seeds. You water & nurture the seedlings. You weed out what is unwanted. You patiently observe the miracle of growing something.

You don't usually get anywhere by yelling at the seedlings to "HURRY UP!" wink
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you seen this?
Anger Management 101
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 06:13 PM
You sent it in an Earlier post BrainHurts. Listened to part1 and 2. Going to listen to 3 and 4 after lunch.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 06:17 PM
Never really had a green thumb Lol! Actually your post makes me think now that maybe I should actually start growing something. Maybe as my plants grow so too will my marriage. think
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Never really had a green thumb Lol! Actually your post makes me think now that maybe I should actually start growing something. Maybe as my plants grow so too will my marriage. think

Well, you mentioned your lack of patience .... so growing things is an excellent way to develop that skill.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
You sent it in an Earlier post BrainHurts. Listened to part1 and 2. Going to listen to 3 and 4 after lunch.
Fantastic.

The Best lesson I learned from it, was that no one makes me lose my temper. I control that.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/18/13 07:15 PM
Finished listening to 3& 4.
Enforces some of the stuff I learnt in counseling Best thing about this site is that it's chuck full of resources.

I also listed my EP's. My wife and I had planned to have lunch together tomorrow so I am going to take the opportunity to present them to her after which I will post them on the forum.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/19/13 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Finished listening to 3& 4.
Enforces some of the stuff I learnt in counseling Best thing about this site is that it's chuck full of resources.

I also listed my EP's. My wife and I had planned to have lunch together tomorrow so I am going to take the opportunity to present them to her after which I will post them on the forum.
Good.

What are your EPs that you're going to give her?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/19/13 05:35 AM
1. No contact ever again with affair partner
2. Email, social network, Skype passwords shared
3. Send schedule every weekend of how my time is going to be spent for the following week
4. Access to all bank accounts
5. No intimate conversations with a female
6. No flirting
7. No flirting ( or being charming)
8. Women kept at arms length
9. No porn
10. No nights apart once we start living together again
11. No recreational activities with people of opposite sex
12. No consumption of alcohol

I also had a conversation with my daughter's godmother this evening and thanked her for her support in helping me come to my senses but I have taken a decision not to discuss my personal life with her anymore.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/20/13 04:02 PM
Regarding #9, porn.
It may be important (for your wife) for you to define exactly the sort of material you will avoid.

POJA pretty much fixes most things.
You want to look at a magazine with sexy models in bikinis? POJA.
"Honey, how do you feel about me buying the Sports Illustrated Bikini issue?"
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/20/13 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
2. Email, social network, Skype ......... passwords shared

11. No recreational activities with people of opposite sex

Recreational activity includes email, social networks, Skype, etc....

It's not enough to just share the passwords.

Can you eliminate these things with women, or do you need to eliminate social media completely?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/21/13 04:15 PM
I hear you pepperband. I will more clearly define the specific kinds of material I would exclude. Firstly there is absolutely no reason for me to watch online porn, read pornographic material or visit strip bars or places like that so definitely those things would be cut off. But like you said when it comes to magazines or books or even the kind of "Hollywood" movies I want to watch POJA would have to be applied.

Those questions you asked HerPapaBear are difficult ones. getting rid of my facebook account (which is the only social network I am a part of other than this one) would not allow me to keep in contact with the family members,male friends, groups and companies as well as a few ex co-workers that I have on there. What I have done recently is delete everyone from my page who does not fall within that category. My career has been mostly in the field of Communications and more so developing ICT material for government,businesses and community groups. Many of the websites I've developed require the inclusion of social networks and a key part of developing the right social network for my clients or employers is studying what is trending in the field (facebook takes a lead in this way).

All in all i will discuss with my wife why anyone who is on my network or even on my Skype account is there; discuss whether there is anyone who should not be there based upon that explanation and remove them.

I am committed to showing my wife that I love her more than anyone else so if I need to inevitably eliminate social networks completely I would do so but this would mean that I would have to change my career entirely. So be it!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/21/13 10:02 PM
What about a joint Facebook with your BW?

Does she want you to get rid of Facebook?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/21/13 11:00 PM
A joint Facebook would be great i think...but I don't know if she would be willing to integrate her life with mine. I would like nothing more than to have a joint Facebook account actually. I am going to ask her about it now.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/21/13 11:59 PM
Spoke to my wife about my list of EP's. We are going to take time during the week to go through my list of Facebook friends. We may also just have a joint Facebook but she is worried it may be too soon to do so because we are not back together yet. I think though that I should take the precaution now to avoid temptation.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 12:46 AM
I say zero facebook or social media but its up to your BS.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
We are going to take time during the week to go through my list of Facebook friends.


Here, I'll make it easy for you; block and remove all female friends that are not of direct blood relation to you. Period.

Eliminate any male friends that knew of your affair and didn't tell your wife or punch you in the face for cheating on your wife.


Your wife should do the same with her friend's list; eliminate any male friends that are not of direct blood relation.


Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 02:59 AM
Hmmmm! Will let my BS Give the final verdict on this. If after applying POJA we believe it's best to delete my Facebook entirely and/ or start a joint page then that's what will happen
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Hmmmm! Will let my BS Give the final verdict on this. If after applying POJA we believe it's best to delete my Facebook entirely and/ or start a joint page then that's what will happen


Oooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,


You could delete your page by yourself, and let her decide later if she feels a joint page is appropriate.

You should be taking action that demonstrates your commitment to protecting your marriage from any future/further intrusion.


Putting EP's into place is your job. Protecting yourself from the temptations of infidelity is your job.


You need to be making these steps.


The fact that you would hang on to see if she'll give you weasel room is distressing.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 05:46 AM
What? I never used my Facebook page to entertain any relationships. You are Telling me to delete my access to family, close friends who prior to being on this site were encouragement to get to my senses, ex- managers who shoot ideas to me via facebook and even my means to getting updates on entertainment and news links.

Furthermore my career is as a communications specialists. I've built and managed websites for a living. As part of those sites managing social network feeds has been my duties.

I've already given up my last job, moved from the country I lived in and deleted all access to people who are not members of family or close friends.

What you may be suggesting may put my further ability to function in future jobs at risk.

Again I will do whatever my BS thinks is best for her so that her needs are met but I think the whole point of EP's is to remove all opportunities that would lead to an affair. AGAIN ...I've never used My online social networks to encourage an outside relationship. It was not the means by which my OW was met, facilitated or encouraged.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 05:58 AM
Social networks make affairs very very easy to happen. Why do you hesitate? It is too easy to access your OW there.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 06:14 AM
Let me give an example that just occurred after sending that last message. I just received an update via my facebook page from an ex-co worker ( she is female) about the situation regarding the Minister of National Security being asked to resign by the Prime Minister. If I was at my old job managing the website for the Prime Minister's office. I would have to update the page " Immediately".

Point is whether it's Facebook, twitter, Skype, email or a carrier pigeon any of these forms of communication could be used to start an affair. Am I to say to my co- workers/managers in the future don't update me by Facebook, email or call me on matters such as these. I guess in this instance it's 2:00 am so she thought it best to message me instead of calling. It's called staying in the loop and staying in that loop is sometimes the difference between success and failure. But as I said before... I've given my BS full access to my page...i'ce deleted everyone I thin does not have a valid reason to be there. If my BS thinks there isn't a valid reason for anyone else to be there I'll remove them too.

Further to this deleting the page entirely is only something I will consider if she needs it to be done as proof of my commitment to her but it will affect my ability to function in my future jobs unless I change careers.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 06:22 AM
What??? My OW never had a Facebook account. I never used it to talk to her. She hardly even knew how to use a computer and I never encouraged any other relationship via my social network. It actually makes more sense for me never to have a cell phone. If anything my phone was the means by which me and the OW communicated. But guess what...that wouldn't make sense either because to me it's important that my BS, family and employers can contact me.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 06:33 AM
Me and my BS will be using POJA to solve this issue.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Me and my BS will be using POJA to solve this issue.
Actually it's whatever your BS wants when it comes to EPs.

What does she want you to do regarding Facebook, social media?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 02:25 PM
She hasn't decided what she wants to do yet. Told her that I am prepared to do anything.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
She hasn't decided what she wants to do yet. Told her that I am prepared to do anything.
If I were her, I'd take you back to the carrier pigeon.

The point of all of this is to affair proof your marriage. Social media is an obvious threat. It doesn't matter that you didn't use it last time, because you may well use it in the future. All this defensiveness on your part makes you look like you are not serious. People are suggesting you be proactive to demonstrate to your BS that you are serious. So, before making her force your hand, why not act preemptively? Don't you see the benefit?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Those questions you asked HerPapaBear are difficult ones.

The point is to eliminate conditions that not only led to your affair, but to eliminate conditions that cause your wife concern.

You've demonstrated that left to your own devices, you are not very good at determining safe boundaries for you or your marriage.

If something is difficult to answer, I'd suggest that it may mean it's not affair proof yet.

I'd also suggest that you're viewing social media through a warped lens/with tunnel vision...... Think about other solutions, based on why you use them!
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Let me give an example that just occurred after sending that last message. I just received an update via my facebook page from an ex-co worker ( she is female) about the situation regarding the Minister of National Security being asked to resign by the Prime Minister. If I was at my old job managing the website for the Prime Minister's office. I would have to update the page " Immediately".

Point is whether it's Facebook, twitter, Skype, email or a carrier pigeon any of these forms of communication could be used to start an affair. Am I to say to my co- workers/managers in the future don't update me by Facebook, email or call me on matters such as these. I guess in this instance it's 2:00 am so she thought it best to message me instead of calling. It's called staying in the loop and staying in that loop is sometimes the difference between success and failure. But as I said before... I've given my BS full access to my page...i'ce deleted everyone I thin does not have a valid reason to be there. If my BS thinks there isn't a valid reason for anyone else to be there I'll remove them too.

Further to this deleting the page entirely is only something I will consider if she needs it to be done as proof of my commitment to her but it will affect my ability to function in my future jobs unless I change careers.

LOL, your aversion to deleting facebook shows that you are not serious about fixing things with your marriage.

Look, my WW was able to communicate with POSOM using FB messaging. She would delete any message that came from POSOM as soon as she read it. I only found out about it because her phone "dinged" while she was in the shower and I looked at it.

The EPs are to keep HER safe, not you. If you use FB to communicate important things, find a different way and kill the FB account.

None of this has to make sense to you. It's to protect her from a cheating husband. Start thinking about her for a change.

"Further to this deleting the page entirely is only something I will consider if she needs it to be done as proof of my commitment to her but it will affect my ability to function in my future jobs unless I change careers."

I call that BS from the git-go. There is no way FB is that important to ANY career. If it is, then its time to change careers to PROTECT YOUR WIFE. Remember, this is about HER, not YOU.

"i'ce deleted everyone I thin does not have a valid reason to be there. If my BS thinks there isn't a valid reason for anyone else to be there I'll remove them too. "

Again, its not about who you thinks has a valid reason for using FB with you. Heck, the OW may have a valid reason, will that keep her on your friends list? And why do you put the pressure on your wife to tell you who should be there and who shouldn't. Give me a break. Talk about setting her up for failure.

It's time to man-up brother and fall on the facebook sword.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 05:41 PM
POJA is not used for her EPs (that should include the removal of FB account). They are the boundaries that SHE is willing to live within to remain married to you. Sorry, but you don't get a say in that.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 07:03 PM
Listen...I am not pressuring my wife...all the decisions I made I made on my own. I've done all that I think is necessary to avert any possiblity of an affair. I am obeying the 4 rules ( protection, care, time and honesty) and for me and my wife to move forward she has to do the same. If there is something I do that makes her suspicious or uncertain about her love for her I expect it to be highlighted, discussed and a decision in her best interest to be made. I've already spoken to her about this whole issue. I will be guided by her feelings and concerns on the issue. And the end of the day that's all that matters to me right now...her feelings and her concerns.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I've done all that I think is necessary to avert any possiblity of an affair... What does SHE think?

If there is something I do that makes her suspicious or uncertain about her love for her I expect it to be highlighted, discussed and a decision in her best interest to be made. Ahh, yes, the wayward spouse expectation is always a nice touch.

I've already spoken to her about this whole issue. I will be guided by her feelings and concerns on the issue. And the end of the day that's all that matters to me right now...her feelings and her concerns. It sounds like maybe you've spoken AT her and not to her. Maybe its just the way you come across, but I dont believe it for a second.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 08:25 PM
My wife just called as I was about to respond to your last post. She believes that joint social media accounts would be best but she is not ready to let the world know that we are trying to work things out. Once we are further ahead in our recovery i.e living together this would be done. She believes that me giving her access to all my means of communicating to the outside world is good but I will also be reviewing my list of friends and media feeds and delete anyone else that may put me at risk.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 09:46 PM
Can you two afford the coaching center?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/22/13 10:54 PM
I believe we can. Let me discuss it with my S first.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
My wife just called as I was about to respond to your last post. She believes that joint social media accounts would be best but she is not ready to let the world know that we are trying to work things out. Once we are further ahead in our recovery i.e living together this would be done. She believes that me giving her access to all my means of communicating to the outside world is good but I will also be reviewing my list of friends and media feeds and delete anyone else that may put me at risk.


Would your BW post here?



You are putting the cart before the horse in a lot of things here.

Your wife's conditions for recovery are not subject to PoJA, nor should they be subject to PoJA when your thinking is still self-centered.

Just based on your responses alone, I can imagine a PoJA session for you being your wife telling you something she is not OK with, and you rationalizing to her why it should be "just fine."


They aren't called "extraordinary" precautions because they are something "everyone else" does.

They are called extraordinary precautions because they are meant to help protect a crippled marriage, and allow it to grow.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:09 AM
HoldHerHand...I respect you a lot you've given some good advice but I don't understand how you can say that I'm putting the cart before the horse. I took the time again to read all of the comments I and others have made on this thread.

The title of my post/thread is Momentum building first steps???

I was looking for some advice on the first steps forward I needed to take after reading Dr. Harley's book "surviving an affair" and reviewing material on this site.

The advice I got was

(1) End all contact and change boundaries with members of the opposite sex. This was done four months prior to me being on this site. Coupled with this I was told that the best thing to do was to put EP's in place. I listed 4 EP's. I was told they were not enough and guided to an example of EP's. I put together an expanded list of 12 gave them to my BS and then posted them for comment. Two of those points i.e. sharing email,social media and bank account passwords as well as no porn were highlightd as needing further expansion. With regard to social media a decision needed to be made as to whether to (a) delete it entirely
(b) have a joint page with my BS
(c) remove anyone on my current list that would be a threat.

If it could be left up to me I would choose (b) but this would require agreement by my BS so we spoke about it and used the POJA to decide. I was told through this site that POJA should be used when making a decision together with my BS so that's what we did. We agreed that (c) is best for now until we start living together at which point (b) would be preferable.

(2) Never spend a night apart again- BS not ready to do that. Still wants to be sure that she would be safe in marriage to me and I agree with her not only does she need to feel safe but in fact I want to feel safe from the emotional hurt she sometimes inflicts.

(3) Spend all our leisure time together and open up our lives to each other- I've been doing that; my BS hasn't because she's not ready to let "the world" know that we are trying to fix things until I reach a certain stage in re-building relationships with members of her family ( which i'm trying to do). Not going to push her...I'm the one who had the affair and I'm the one that needs to give just compensation for my wrong.

(4) Get Five steps to Romantic Love Workbook- will be done soon but first i want to read the books "His needs,Her needs"
and "LoveBusters".

I don't think I've missed anything but please tell me if I have. I am here to get advice on how to build my marriage. That is the most important thing to me right now. I know it comes with the territory but i really am not interested in being called names or being judged on a false premise of who I am as a person...so I'll continue to do my best to screen these comments out and focus on the advice required to move forward.

I will ask my wife if she is willing to post. She has been reading the thread and even told me last night that she was happy about the steps I've been taking to move forward. However, I think she should post if only for people to stop basing their opinions on false premises.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Hmmmm! Will let my BS Give the final verdict on this. If after applying POJA we believe it's best to delete my Facebook entirely and/ or start a joint page then that's what will happen

Micalex, I would skip the POJA since it doesn't apply to EPs and just delete Facebook. That is a very simple, basic protection against an affair. Even having a joint fb page doesn't eliminate the problem because members of the opposite sex can still contact you and you are free to contact them. Facebook just isn't worth the trouble.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:42 AM
"(2) Never spend a night apart again- BS not ready to do that. Still wants to be sure that she would be safe in marriage to me and I agree with her not only does she need to feel safe but in fact I want to feel safe from the emotional hurt she sometimes inflicts.

(3) Spend all our leisure time together and open up our lives to each other- I've been doing that; my BS hasn't because she's not ready to let "the world" know that we are trying to fix things until I reach a certain stage in re-building relationships with members of her family ( which i'm trying to do). Not going to push her...I'm the one who had the affair and I'm the one that needs to give just compensation for my wrong."

Micalex, you are taking these 2 points out of context. These are EPs that apply when you are reconciled and committed to recovery. Of course you can't abide by #2 if you are still separated. But if you are reconciled and working on recovery, these are not matters for negotiation, because EPs are not negotiable. However, her decision to reconcile is voluntary.

However, if it is your wish to reconcile with your wife there are EPs you can do now, such as eliminating useless - but risky - social networking sites.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:46 AM
"I will be guided by her feelings and concerns on the issue. And the end of the day that's all that matters to me right"

As long as they are in line with basic extraordinary precautions suggested by Marriage Builders. But if she has a feeling that is not in line with basic EPs, it should not be followed. She has never recovered a marriage and this is where we can help you both.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
What??? My OW never had a Facebook account. I never used it to talk to her. She hardly even knew how to use a computer and I never encouraged any other relationship via my social network. It actually makes more sense for me never to have a cell phone. If anything my phone was the means by which me and the OW communicated. But guess what...that wouldn't make sense either because to me it's important that my BS, family and employers can contact me.

Agree that the cell phone should be eliminated too. Thanks for pointing that out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:55 AM
Anything else you can think of?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:16 AM
Just deleted all females that are not blood relatives from my Facebook, Skype email accounts and cellphone. I will be keeping the email addresses and contact numbers for my former employers ( though they are female) that I may use as job references. I am not going to get rid of my social network altogether because it is a link to members of my family, close school friends (I went to an all boys college by the way), websites that I've developed and the very few forms of entertainment that I still enjoy ( mainly sports teams and musical artists).
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:30 AM
Maybe I should get rid of the Internet too...but wait I'll stop talking to the lovely people on marriage builders. That wouldn't be good now would it.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:36 AM
After all The Marriage builders forum is a social network too.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
HoldHerHand...I respect you a lot you've given some good advice but I don't understand how you can say that I'm putting the cart before the horse. I took the time again to read all of the comments I and others have made on this thread.

The title of my post/thread is Momentum building first steps???

I was looking for some advice on the first steps forward I needed to take after reading Dr. Harley's book "surviving an affair" and reviewing material on this site.

The advice I got was

(1) End all contact and change boundaries with members of the opposite sex. This was done four months prior to me being on this site. Coupled with this I was told that the best thing to do was to put EP's in place. I listed 4 EP's. I was told they were not enough and guided to an example of EP's. I put together an expanded list of 12 gave them to my BS and then posted them for comment. Two of those points i.e. sharing email,social media and bank account passwords as well as no porn were highlightd as needing further expansion. With regard to social media a decision needed to be made as to whether to (a) delete it entirely
(b) have a joint page with my BS
(c) remove anyone on my current list that would be a threat.

If it could be left up to me I would choose (b) but this would require agreement by my BS so we spoke about it and used the POJA to decide. I was told through this site that POJA should be used when making a decision together with my BS so that's what we did. We agreed that (c) is best for now until we start living together at which point (b) would be preferable.

(2) Never spend a night apart again- BS not ready to do that. Still wants to be sure that she would be safe in marriage to me and I agree with her not only does she need to feel safe but in fact I want to feel safe from the emotional hurt she sometimes inflicts.

(3) Spend all our leisure time together and open up our lives to each other- I've been doing that; my BS hasn't because she's not ready to let "the world" know that we are trying to fix things until I reach a certain stage in re-building relationships with members of her family ( which i'm trying to do). Not going to push her...I'm the one who had the affair and I'm the one that needs to give just compensation for my wrong.

(4) Get Five steps to Romantic Love Workbook- will be done soon but first i want to read the books "His needs,Her needs"
and "LoveBusters".

I don't think I've missed anything but please tell me if I have. I am here to get advice on how to build my marriage. That is the most important thing to me right now. I know it comes with the territory but i really am not interested in being called names or being judged on a false premise of who I am as a person...so I'll continue to do my best to screen these comments out and focus on the advice required to move forward.

I will ask my wife if she is willing to post. She has been reading the thread and even told me last night that she was happy about the steps I've been taking to move forward. However, I think she should post if only for people to stop basing their opinions on false premises.



Your whiny/smartass responses don't paint the picture of a man that is remorseful and serious about protecting and repairing his marriage.

When you spend even a few months around here dealing with people who want to half-[censored] their way into getting a betrayed spouse to stay with them and not change a thing, your bovine excrement detector becomes very keen.


On an emotional level, you have an attempted murder charge against your wife. What you have done will fundementally change her FOREVER.

And your response is "Whaaaaaaaaaaat???? I have to give up Facebook? But, but, BUTT!"


You have forcefully removed trust and innocence from your wife's being, and Facebook is a sacrifice?


Come on!


Being fully aware of your thread title, a radical change in your lifestyle is the BIGGEST "Momentum Building First Step" that you can take. I repeat; change your lifestyle. This doesn't mean "temporarily make some changes to appease my battered and broken wife." It means doing away with things that are a detriment to your marriage.


Falling back on PoJA - especially with a spouse absent from the boards to confirm such claims - is a common tool of a non-serious wayward. Things that can destroy your marriage aren't less likely to destroy your marriage because they are PoJAd. I've seen a WH manipulate his BW into a threesome with another man by "using PoJA." Waywards have tried to "PoJA" open marriages.

You certainly didn't PoJA paying a prostitute. And even if you did, people have shown up here who agreed to allow their spouse to have sex outside the marriage, and have nothing but REGRET for that.

PoJA?


You need to be working on EPs and Just Compensation. You need to be working on Radical Honesty. You need to be working on getting proper UA time.


And when you start looking serious, your wife will see it, she will have some sense of safety. Until then, half-assing and trying to bargain out of basic EPs is going to shorten your window of opportunity for recovery.


Let me ask you, are you ready to make the necassary changes to your life to have an Affair Proof marriage... even if your wife won't take you back?


That's what a serious person looks like. We have them around.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
After all The Marriage builders forum is a social network too.


This is the kind of crap that is going to make people leave you in the dust.


Knock it off.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 05:27 AM
He is definetly a renter. Was a freeloader but now a renter.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 05:46 AM
So essentially you are judging me based on what you've seen from others and yes... the changes I have made and will make changes in my life even if my BS does not want to take me back.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 05:48 AM
People have suggested that I get rid of all my social networks. Is or isn't the marriage builders forum a social network?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 05:57 AM
Don't even know how to begin to respond to that one all i would say is that I hope my BS knows me better than you do for my marriage's sake.

I'll continue to do what she wants me to do and be guided by her emotional needs. Bottom line is I'm not trying to have a relationship with you; I'm trying to fix a broken relationship with her.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 06:11 AM
I've decided that I will not be posting again until my BS weighs in on thses discussions.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Don't even know how to begin to respond to that one all i would say is that I hope my BS knows me better than you do for my marriage's sake.

I'll continue to do what she wants me to do and be guided by her emotional needs. Bottom line is I'm not trying to have a relationship with you; I'm trying to fix a broken relationship with her.


Bottom line is I'm not trying to pull punches and be your buddy... and the posters here aren't trying to have a relationship with you, either. They are trying to teach you Marriage Builders concepts.


What we have to go on is your words, your reported actions. The history of others works as a guideline in this online-forum related environment. This program is done through books, email, and phone calls because nobody is the snowflake they think they are. The concepts WORK when applied.


Your BS doesn't know you. She thought she knew you, but she knew a plastic front that was paying for sex behind her back.


Knock of the damn tantrum, quit whining and arguing, and LISTEN to concepts that have saved the marriages of the formerly broken and imperfect people that are posting to you.


Sheesh.
Posted By: AJoseJake Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I've decided that I will not be posting again until my BS weighs in on thses discussions.

This is why you are failing. Those wholesale changes you claim you are making shouldn't be contingent upon your BSs response. There is no more negotiation...that ship sailed when you chose to have an affair.

There IS a chance for recovery if you make these lasting lifestyle changes. Understand that you could do everything right at this point, and she could still leave. You will still only be able to blame yourself.

Also understand that regardless of what she decides, if you don't make these changes, any future relationship you have is certainly doomed.

Do the right thing.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
After all The Marriage builders forum is a social network too.
How when it's anonymous and you have no way of getting personal information?

Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 11:56 AM
This will be my first (and likely, last) post on this thread, colleagues.

Did anyone else notice that this poster's resistance/belligerence increased exponentially when he was - strongly - advised to delete his Facebook account?

This was just one of the negative "hygiene factors" I detected which caused me to follow, but not engage, this thread.

Mikey talked (typed?) a good fight, but when it came to the crunch, in the words of Tallulah Bankhead, "There was no 'there', there!"

(As an aside, how do the females here feel knowing that Mikey envisioned this site as a social networking opportunity?)
Originally Posted by Micalex
Maybe I should get rid of the Internet too...but wait I'll stop talking to the lovely people on marriage builders. That wouldn't be good now would it.


Ohhhh...the sarcasm phase....

The truly UNrepentant ALWAYS revert to sarcasm.

That sure didn't take long.

committed
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
People have suggested that I get rid of all my social networks. Is or isn't the marriage builders forum a social network?

If you cannot be trusted on Marriage Builders, you definitely should leave the forum AND delete your Internet. I would agree with you. Good bye.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 12:42 PM
This guy is not serious. A wayward who fights this hard to maintain something as stupid as Facebook is not serious about recovery.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I've decided that I will not be posting again until my BS weighs in on thses discussions.

In other words he hopes his wife is not as savvy as forum people and will let him cut corners. This is a guy who absolutely does not want to give up Facebook, which should be a huge red flag to his BS.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I've decided that I will not be posting again until my BS weighs in on thses discussions.

Micalex,

From one adulterer to another - This above quote is a bad idea.

You can come back and post without your wife weighing in on the topics. I'd highly recommend it if you're serious about recovery.

To be honest, your wife should NOT come on your thread anyway. We advise spouses to avoid this when entering recovery.



Is MB a social network? Of course not, we don't come here to socialize, we come here to survive adultery. HUGE difference! But you already know this, you're just irritated and you're using sarcasm as a way to demonstrate this irritation. Please stop this, it withdraws love units from your wife and causes her further pain and doubt when you behave this way.


Is Facebook a necessity? Of course not, most people thrive and survive without it. If you're paying attention, many people are finding it irrelevant to the future of networking anyway. And there are many other ways to share photo's with those we love.


What are you willing to do to insure success in recovery?

Your character is either being reborn or it's not.
Your actions determine the answer.

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
..... if only for people to stop basing their opinions on false premises.


From one adulterer to another, this concerns me greatly.

I haven't seen any false premises on your thread yet.

Can you be more specific?





Posted By: Pepperband Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
People have suggested that I get rid of all my social networks. Is or isn't the marriage builders forum a social network?

Marriage Builders site has purposely gotten rid of the "private message" function. This means that any given conversation between opposite sex adults has hundreds of eyes looking at it. Pretty difficult to start a secret love-bank account on MB. MB disallows people to post their email address in public. Therefore, you will not see "Hey Joe, this is Sue. Send me an email so I can offer you my help".

Facebook, on the other hand has a functioning private message function. Very easy to start a hidden relationship on FB.

No pouting allowed.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
People have suggested that I get rid of all my social networks. Is or isn't the marriage builders forum a social network?
If the marriage builders forum is an avenue by which you can conduct an affair, then, by all means, eliminate it.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:23 PM
confused Now I have to call my BS and tell her not to look at the thread... or maybe I shouldn't so that she can comment and stop this nonsense about me not doing things without her telling me to do so because I know someone is going to say that.

FACEBOOK HAS BEEN DELETED!
I was in the process of de-activating my Facebook page (the only social network website I'm on) whilst you sent your email HerPapaBear. Took the decision to avoid all this back and forth. So that's DONE!!! No more Facebook page.
Tried to de-activate my Skype account too but unfortunately you can't so further to deleting all females from my contact list excluding my mother which I did two days ago...I will ask my BS if she wants to change my password and I don't even need to know what it is. If I need to use it I will ask her if I can and to whom I would need to call.


I am committed to changing my life...for me and not for anyone else. As I said quite a few times already I am only here to get advice and guidance. After reading Dr. Harley's book ( whilst still with OW) I knew what I needed to do even though it was difficult to do. Why? Because something in me says that if the marriage builders strategy cannot help save my marriage probably nothing will. What I like about Dr. Harley is that he made "common sense". Lots of people and counsellors do not.

I gave up a well paying job and the place I called home for 4 years in order to get away from my OW. So YES I would get irritated when people question my "newly found" commitment. Fact is the questioning of my commitment was part of my stupid rationalization for having an affair in the first place.

The difficulty in getting many different views at the same time is that to the receiver of those views it can appear to be inconsistent. An example ...some people are saying on this forum that my wife should come on. Others that she shouldn't. Which voice of wise reasoning should I listen too. Personally I want to be Open and Honest with my wife about everything and anything but I also want to listen to the advice of those who have been through this before.

N.B. Please take it from someone who has managed these tools for a living. Whether it's in the form of Instant Messaging, Blog, Forum or website they are all Social Networking Service Platforms. visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_networking_service

Maybe I try to be overly technical but that's the IT brain in me.

POINT IS FACEBOOK IS NOW DELETED! Now on to deciding what magazines or books I can read.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:30 PM
Well done. You may go thru FB withdrawal. Thats ok. When I told my wife FB had to, she did/said the same things that you did/said. Many have and thats why you got the response that you did. Experience speaks MUCH louder than words. BTW, when my WW finally deleted FB, I did too, without telling her that I would. That boosted her a bit and let her know that I was willing to abide by the same EPs that I was asking her to. There was FB withdrawal because it can be an addiction of sorts.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:34 PM
Also, there are many spouses on this forum that post separately. Sometimes the vets ask the spouse to chime in on their threads and sometimes that ask them to stay away. If you're not sure why they say something, simply ask them instead of getting frustrated and blaming conflicting advise. Therre is a reason and everyones situation is treated differently, because they are different.

You seem like a very logical and analytical type (me too). You're going to have to stow that reasoning power of yours because this process takes a great deal of humility and trying to reason your way out of specific advise will only get you more responses that you wont like. Stick around and you'll see what I mean.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:47 PM
Micalex, almost all of the advice you receive here concerning your marriage *IS* consistent, because this is not an "opinion" forum when it comes to the rules. Dr Harley's rules reign supreme here. Those of us here screwed up our own marriages and only saved them using Dr Harley's concepts.

Whether or not your BS looks at your thread - which she WILL - is not a matter that Dr Harley has ever commented or likely even cares about. So using that as an excuse to ignore the advice you receive here is not going to fly. Nor are people likely to help you here if you dismiss any advice you dislike by saying its up to your wife. Sure, you have to know what makes her uneasy, but that does not negate your obligation to affair proof your marriage in areas where she has no experience or awareness. We do have that awareness, on the other hand.

Folks here do want to help you, but very few are going to stick with you unless you lose the teenage drama queen attitude. You are not a teenage gurl and we are not your momma. We don't have to help you, after all.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:48 PM
dramaqueen
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
confused Now I have to call my BS and tell her not to look at the thread... or maybe I shouldn't so that she can comment and stop this nonsense about me not doing things without her telling me to do so because I know someone is going to say that.

Welcome back!

I encourage your wife to read your thread, she'd be crazy not to.

What I DON'T recommend is that she "post" on your thread.


It's really that simple.

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
.... Now on to deciding what magazines or books I can should read.

What books of Dr. Harley's have you read since the affair ended?

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 03:57 PM
"You seem like a very logical and analytical type (me too). You're going to have to stow that reasoning power of yours because this process takes a great deal of humility and trying to reason your way out of specific advise will only get you more responses that you wont like. Stick around and you'll see what I mean."

He will need to start USING that logic and reason in order to recover his marriage. An inability to put aside his emotions, as we have seen demonstrated here, will doom his chances. It's great to question the reasons behind a specific step. It is not great to concoct lame excuses and rationalizations.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Welcome back!

I encourage your wife to read your thread, she'd be crazy not to.

What I DON'T recommend is that she "post" on your thread.


It's really that simple.

Bingo!!
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:20 PM
I've only read " surviving an affair". My BS has a couple other books " LoveBusters" and " His needs, Her needs". Asked her to send me the " Kobo" link to the books last week. But She hasn't as yet. She just started a new job so I know she is busy. I'll probably just go ahead and order them at the end of the week.
Posted By: Wow777 Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
"You seem like a very logical and analytical type (me too). You're going to have to stow that reasoning power of yours because this process takes a great deal of humility and trying to reason your way out of specific advise will only get you more responses that you wont like. Stick around and you'll see what I mean."

He will need to start USING that logic and reason in order to recover his marriage. An inability to put aside his emotions, as we have seen demonstrated here, will doom his chances. It's great to question the reasons behind a specific step. It is not great to concoct lame excuses and rationalizations.

What I meant was, some things, like exposure, do not seem logical at all. You dont have to fully understand them for them to right
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 04:57 PM
It is just the opposite. When the reasons behind these tactics are explained, most people can see the logic in them. It is very irrational to not expose, since keeping an affair secret only serves to fuel it. One of the top reasons for not exposing is FEAR, which is an emotional reaction. Those who can't put their emotions aside and follow this program usually don't make it. The program is very logical and very counterintuitive.

I like it when someone asks for the reasons behind a suggestion because that means they are using their logic and reason. But concocting lame objections disguised as a question is not in the same category.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I've only read " surviving an affair". My BS has a couple other books " LoveBusters" and " His needs, Her needs". Asked her to send me the " Kobo" link to the books last week. But She hasn't as yet. She just started a new job so I know she is busy. I'll probably just go ahead and order them at the end of the week.

You need to get busy on the other books.

I'd recommend you start reading lovebusters ASAP and then read HNHN's immediately afterwards.

Over the next TWO weeks you should be able to have these read. Then it's time to do the re-read's and start incorporating the action steps outlined in each book.

Aggressive schedule, yes!
Doable, yes!
Even if you're a slow reader like me.
I did it, two weeks, while running my own business, scheduling/maintaining 20 hrs of UA time together & spending time with our kids.

Ask questions!

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 06:14 PM
Much appreciated.Thanks for the encouragement. I will be pressing forward based on your suggestions. laugh
Posted By: armymama Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 08:31 PM
Micalex,

Five days ago, I recommended that you read "Lovebusters". What does "pressing forward" mean? How will you ensure that you will never be physcially violent in the future?

BTW, flippancy and sarcasm from a recent wayward are not usually received well here. It causes people who have been here awhile to question your sincerity.

AM

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/23/13 08:46 PM
Five days ago I asked my BS to forward me the "Kobo" link to the other books. pressing means that if the link isn't sent I'll just purchase it myself. The only way to ensure no angry outbursts or physical violence is to use the tools given and developed for me during my anger management/ emotional management courses.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 06:29 AM

Role of Husbands and Wives by Mortarman
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 10:29 AM
Thanks for the link Mr. Wondering. On another note i got the links to the ebook versions of "Lovebusters" and "His needs,Her needs".

Maybe I shouldn't be posting here but it's 6 am and It's too early to call my personal counsellor and i guess I need a place to vent.

I received a call from my BS last night indicating that my youngest daughter was taken to hospital. She may have ingested something she shouldn't. Immediately i left the house and headed to the hospital. On arrival I was informed by my sister-in-law that my daughter had been in hospital since Monday night. My daughter is ok. My wife just wanted to take every precaution that she did not actually ingest anything but of course she had to be kept for observation.

However, my question (firstly to myself) became why was I told 24 hours after the fact. It's not like my BS and i did not speak during that time. In fact whenever we talk I always ask how are the kids. Her response during the time was that they were ok.

Now I understand that I am a WH and the extent of my wrongs requires me to probably be shot dead...but does that mean that I shouldn't be afforded the basic rights of a parent. When I asked my BS why she didn't say anything before she said because she felt embarrassed. Honestly, I think it may be that she felt fearful. Fearful that somehow I would have an AO. Which I did not because I've really been working hard on following my anger management plan.

But naturally I still continued to try and wrap my head around the issue. How can someone be so calm giving no indication that something is wrong? (something my wife has always been very good at). How can someone in one breath be encouraging me to follow Rules of Honesty and state that to them honesty and openness is their most important emotional need and in the other breath break that need to another?

I don't even know if or how I should say anything to her because I suspect that the first thing that would be said is that I abandoned her and by extension the children. In other words I am in no position to point any fingers. But this isn't about pointing fingers. Maybe I just don't get certain things.

Why can't she see though that in many ways it's this kind of behaviour that led me to become distant. Humans are still mostly instinctive and when confronted with a threat we either fight or flee? Most fights begin with a statement of displeasure and then however quickly descend into argument, rage and physical violence. Most "flights" start with being withdrawn and then descend into running away and in my historical case running to someone else...my OW. Who started off as a confidente in times like these.

All I can do is continue my own path to becoming a better person. Choosing neither to fight or to flee I would obey the Rules of Protection, Care, Time and Honesty and use the tools I now have to avoid any type of AO. I hope that some day my BS would see how much I love her however long it takes. Because things take time.

Maybe I should really ask her if she wants us to particpate in the Coaching Centre.

ANY advice though would be appreciated.



Posted By: ItCanGetBetter Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 12:24 PM
The child may have ingested something harmful on her watch. Embarrassment is very plausible.

You do have a right to be informed of such matters.

This would be a good opportunity to demonstrate that you can discuss a difficult issue while also keeping it safe. You explained the incident pretty calmly in your post, so keep your cool and explain your position to you W.

Keep it to three sentences! "I love you and DD. I would always want to know if there is a concern about her welfare. Please tell me when there is something important that I should know."

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 12:27 PM
"Because things take time", seems like an appropriate answer.

Her actions seem appropriate to me given the full extent of what she has lived with these past few years.
You're not the primary care giver and since DD was only there for observation, there was no emergency. You did voluntarily give up your role when you left your family and as hard as it is to swallow, you're not entitled to have that role back just because you live nearby.

I'm very glad to hear you didn't have an AO. How'd you do with the other lovebusters? Any DJ's or SD's?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
.... I abandoned her and by extension the children.

From one adulterer to another, you and I need to come to an agreement about this statement.

It was never, "by extension" that you abandoned your children.

You need to claim what you did if you want to help your children and your wife recover.

You abandoned your wife.

You abandoned your children.

I did the same thing! It was ugly!

Can you acknowledge this?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 04:15 PM
Thanks for the advice. I will use it. Not ready to discuss it with BS yet. I Will give it a few days. At the end of the day she did the right thing. Just sad that something like this is just another fallout of my poor actions
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 04:17 PM
No DJ's or SD's. All I said to her was that there was no need to feel embarrassed. She did the right thing and that kids do stuff like this all the time.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 04:19 PM
You are right HerPapaBear. Changing my language is also something I'm working on.

I abandoned my wife.
I abandoned my children.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
You are right HerPapaBear. Changing my language is also something I'm working on.

I abandoned my wife.
I abandoned my children.

Good to hear!

I wanted to make sure you and I were on the same page.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 04:43 PM
Please keep us updated about your reading progress.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 05:10 PM
I will. Started reading already.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 06:16 PM
It's a short book so far I read it 15x. Good luck in your rebirth and don't hide from the truth of your actions embrace them and take steps not to repeat them.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/24/13 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Why can't she see though that in many ways it's this kind of behaviour that led me to become distant. Humans are still mostly instinctive and when confronted with a threat we either fight or flee? Most fights begin with a statement of displeasure and then however quickly descend into argument, rage and physical violence. Most "flights" start with being withdrawn and then descend into running away and in my historical case running to someone else...my OW. Who started off as a confidente in times like these.


I can certainly say that this is the first time I've ever seen the "fight or flight" response used in justification for adultery.


But, you didn't "run to OW" because of fight-or-flight. You ran to OW because you allowed yourself to have intimate conversation with a woman who was not your wife.

You had an affair because you allowed a woman who is not your wife to meet your emotional needs.

And, at any time you allow that to happen, an affair is the only possible outcome.

You had an affair because you have poor boundaries with women, and that is one of the things that Extraordinary Precautions come into place to protect against.


You see, affairs even happen in great marriages when one spouse or the other has poor boundaries with the opposite sex.




Secondly,


Flight isn't a great response as a husband. Fight is our role - but that doesn't mean arguing. It means temperance, compassion, and understanding. It means being the rock of the marriage and the rock of the family.

It doesn't mean taking Love Busters silently, but it does NOT mean returning Love Busters in kind.

Keep reading. Keep studying. It will start to make sense.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/27/13 07:08 PM
Here are some good clips on opposite sex friendships. I know you broke it off with your female friend/Godmother, but I thought it was a good listen.

Radio Clip on Opposite Sex Friendships
Segment #2
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 04/29/13 01:27 PM
Also here is a clip on EPs.

Radio Clip on Extraordinary Precautions
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/11/13 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Please keep us updated about your reading progress.

So how's it going?

Still reading?
Posted By: GloveOil Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/11/13 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
...N.B. Please take it from someone who has managed these tools for a living. Whether it's in the form of Instant Messaging, Blog, Forum or website they are all Social Networking Service Platforms. visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_networking_service

Maybe I try to be overly technical but that's the IT brain in me.

POINT IS FACEBOOK IS NOW DELETED! Now on to deciding what magazines or books I can read.
N.B. for Micalex: I've been overseas & otherwise almost too busy to breathe for the last month due to work demands, and I realize you've deleted FB; but I'm sorry, I've still gotta call you out on this above, because even if it's a few-week-old post, it's still got a rather funky air about it.

On MarriageBuilders, your former affair-partner can't look you up (under her own account or under a fake account created specially for the purpose) nearly as easily. For you to suggest an equivalence among different online communication platforms (under which deleting FB would be as useless to your chances of saving your marriage as deleting MB) might be your brain being 'technical,' or it might be your brain being weaselly. If you don't get the major distinction between a place like MB and a place like FB, in terms of the difference with which your wounded spouse might view one vs. the other, then your wife would have plenty of reason to remain wary of risking emotional reattachment with you.

As I said, I realize it's been a couple of weeks since you posted that. I hope you've progressed to some of the above realizations in the interim; or maybe you even realized it at the time but just got yourself down an "I need to win this argument" rabbit-trail -- I dunno. My point here is not to 'pile on after the whistle', but simply to make sure you're thinking clearly re: the above.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:50 AM
Hi,
Been a while since I've posted. Reading threads though.
Finally completed reading" love busters" and "his needs her needs". Just started reading " Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders".

It's been tough going and I'm getting a little frustrated. My wife (BS) and I (WS) have been trying to spend as much time as possible together. Honestly this has only amounted to about 8 hours a week and only if I include phone conversations. We have lunch twice a week for a couple hours and then talk on the phone mostly. I also apologized openly to her father...her mom still wants nothing to do with me and openly apologized to the church we attended.

More to the point last night we tried to have dinner. The plan originally was dinner and a movie but because she didn't make baby sitting arrangements the time got pushed back so we just decided to have dinner. During the course of the day prior to dinner she expressed some frustration over forgetting our daughters swimming lesson. Tried to cheer her up and encourage her that she did the right thing by attempting to make it up to our daughter by taking her shopping. Also let her know that in the future I'm here to help in anyway possible including dropping the kid (s) to their lessons.

Once we got to dinner I asked how her day was and she said frustrated to the point where she feels like crawling under a rock. Told her well then my plan tonight is to help
her feel less frustrated. I think I failed.

Asked her what was frustrating her...she initially said that she doesn't want to talk about it. I said ok but then got quiet and pensive for a few minutes because I thought it had something to do with me. She picked up on it and asked how cone my mood changed and I said well I'm just thinking whether I am the cause of her frustration. She said no and proceeded to tell me about the situation regarding her relationship with her parents. How they're not really being supportive to her. I tried telling her that maybe she should talk to them about it. She said it's impossible to get through to them. Left it there and tried to change topic by asking which restaurant she wanted to go to. Italian, Chinese or Irish. Then a girlfriend of hers called. After they spoke I asked who it was. She told me it was her girlfriend checking if she got to the restaurant ok and that she should call when she gets home. This friend has interrupted
the little time we spend together on many occasions and before our affair she would spend hours talking to her on the phone...which led to me feeling neglected. We already had such little time together with our busy lives of work and taking care of our
first daughter. I let her know that I thought it was inappropriate for her friend to be checking up on her constantly like that...something she does regularly. Guess that was wrong of me to say too because I was saying it out of frustration.

We got over that...decided to go Italian...and tried to enjoy the night together...but every topic led to her raising some issue of frustration. I felt like I was constantly trying to out fires. On our way home I just had to ask her though what was really bothering her...and she said...that she feels her life is ruined and she only has one life.

I told her that I know That i'm the cause of that feeling ( mostly) but we have am opportunity to make our lives better than it ever was before and she needs to know that I still love her very much. Guess that was wrong for me to say too because she said whenever I said something like that it just reminds her of the fact that before the affair I said I loved her but still I had an affair. I had no response. We said our goodnight's and I went home very sad.

My questions are: (1) Can someone of the same sex like a friend meet your most important emotional needs and therefore block your spouse from doing so?
(2) Do I just let time and my actions help heal bad memories?
(3) Did I not avoid love busters?( will be searching the book again for clues)


Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:58 AM
Hi HerPapaBear. Finished reading His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters. Been focusing on putting the ideas in th books and on this forum into practice. Started reading Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders yesterday.

I put up a post on a dinner experience with BS earlier. Would really like your feedback.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
My questions are: (1) Can someone of the same sex like a friend meet your most important emotional needs and therefore block your spouse from doing so?
(2) Do I just let time and my actions help heal bad memories?
(3) Did I not avoid love busters?( will be searching the book again for clues)


1 - Yes, absolutely! This is one of the key reasons that Dr. Harley recommends that spouses spend ALL of their recreational time TOGETHER.

Even when it is a SAME-SEX friend, that time spent doing recreational activities together creates a contrast effect with our spouse that makes time spent with those friends MORE ATTRACTIVE than spending time with our spouse, and that is DISASTEROUS to the marriage!

2 - Yes! But, you have to be spending the APPROPRIATE AMOUNT of time together, this means 25 hours or more each week!


3 - No clue! Your wife would know! But, that doesn't mean that digging in and studying how Love Busters occur and making sure to eliminate them completely is a waste of your time! Learning to be the source of your wife's happiness will help feed back into your #2 question!
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 05:57 PM
Thanks HoldHerHand. Reminds me of the story of Craig not liking Joan's friend Bev in love busters. It's not that I don't like her friend...I am happy that she has such a good friend...I just want my wIfe to understand that when her friend interrupts the time we have to spend together it alienates me...and once her friend starts talking she tends to go on and on...even my wife admits it.

We have a safe word that we use to avoid love busters and take a step back from discussions if uncomfortable. I think though that when we use the safe word it only serves to indicate that a love buster is imminent and it makes the other partner upset anyway...

I will be asking my wife if we can have a POJA discussion about this issue...although I am afraid sometimes to speak up because as a WS I want to avoid causing more pain than I already have by having too many heavy conversations.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Hi HerPapaBear. Finished reading His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters. Been focusing on putting the ideas in th books and on this forum into practice. Started reading Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders yesterday.

I put up a post on a dinner experience with BS earlier. Would really like your feedback.

Ok!

Remember, I'm pointing things out to help you. Do NOT get discouraged by my posts, I do believe you are making some progress.

That being said,

I'll be back.....
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:27 PM



Originally Posted by Micalex
It's been tough going and I'm getting a little frustrated.


Why?


Your wife is giving you an opportunity you never deserved.

She spends her days feeling betrayed and you are frustrated because of this? She's just not getting over this betrayal quick enough, isn't that what you are feeling?


Originally Posted by Micalex
My wife (BS) and I (WS) have been trying to spend as much time as possible together. Honestly this has only amounted to about 8 hours a week and only if I include phone conversations. We have lunch twice a week for a couple hours and then talk on the phone mostly.


She's giving you an opportunity to date her, to court her, to rekindle a romance and a chance to win her heart.


So what are you doing with this opportunity?


Are you selfishly demanding more from her than she is willing or able to offer currently? Asking for more than she can give?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:32 PM



Originally Posted by Micalex
More to the point last night we tried to have dinner. The plan originally was dinner and a movie but because she didn't make baby sitting arrangements the time got pushed back so we just decided to have dinner.


Did you consider planning the babysitter?



Originally Posted by Micalex
Once we got to dinner I asked how her day was and she said frustrated to the point where she feels like crawling under a rock. Told her well then my plan tonight is to help her feel less frustrated. I think I failed.


You assumed she wanted you to take something away.


She was just expressing her raw hurt and pain.


Your job was to be compassionate and listen.....

Originally Posted by Micalex
Asked her what was frustrating her...she initially said that she doesn't want to talk about it.


Instead of respecting her request you picked unhappy thoughts by pouting....



Originally Posted by Micalex
I said ok but then got quiet and pensive for a few minutes because I thought it had something to do with me.


yes, pouted.


Is this a pattern of yours? If so, it's not very endearing. Nor is it romantic.



Originally Posted by Micalex
She picked up on it and asked how come my mood changed


You instantly became a source of unhappiness.


Do you think that's a good idea for a date?


Originally Posted by Micalex
....and I said well I'm just thinking whether I am the cause of her frustration.


You turned everything around in an instant and forced her to rescue - you.


I hope this isn't a habit of yours!


Originally Posted by Micalex
She said no and proceeded to tell me about the situation regarding her relationship with her parents. How they're not really being supportive to her. I tried telling her that maybe she should talk to them about it. She said it's impossible to get through to them.


So you failed to recognize that you really WERE the source of her frustration. Look, she is allowing you back in her life and her parents don't agree with her choices. Her parents are frustrating her because of YOU. You destroyed their daughters life by betraying her and they think she's crazy for allowing you anywhere near her.

I don't blame them!

My In-Laws were very concerned, and had the right to be.... They picked my wife up off the floor when I left her for dead.... Same as you!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Micalex
Left it there and tried to change topic by asking which restaurant she wanted to go to. Italian, Chinese or Irish.


What a hero, you dredged up her unhappiness, pouted for answers, and then ignored her pain when she finally disclosed her feelings and thoughts. I guess you were just to uncomfortable with the honesty you asked of her.


You had a golden opportunity to express sincere remorse for being at the source of her pain and frustration. For being at the center of her and her parents discord. Yet you just DROPPED it.



Originally Posted by Micalex
Then a girlfriend of hers called. After they spoke I asked who it was. She told me it was her girlfriend checking if she got to the restaurant ok and that she should call when she gets home. This friend has interrupted
the little time we spend together on many occasions....


Was this friend there for her while you were drugging it up with your ho bag?


Tread lightly here my friend, this woman has more loyalty in your wife's eyes than you will have for many years to come....


Originally Posted by Micalex
.... and before our affair she would spend hours talking to her on the phone...which led to me feeling neglected. We already had such little time together with our busy lives of work and taking care of our first daughter.


Oh good grief, now this friend of your wife's is a source of your PAST unwillingness to commit time and energy to your marriage. And maybe even an excuse for your affair. naughty



Originally Posted by Micalex
I let her know that I thought it was inappropriate for her friend to be checking up on her constantly like that...something she does regularly. Guess that was wrong of me to say too because I was saying it out of frustration.


I think I covered this already!



Originally Posted by Micalex
We got over that...decided to go Italian...and tried to enjoy the night together...but every topic led to her raising some issue of frustration. I felt like I was constantly trying to out fires.


You poured the gas on all the fires you've mentioned thus far. Sheesh!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:36 PM




Originally Posted by Micalex
On our way home I just had to ask her though what was really bothering her...and she said...that she feels her life is ruined and she only has one life.


Again, you had to dredge up her unhappiness!


When you're adultery is the cause of her pain, it's best to stop bringing it to the surface with probing questions. Dates are meant to create new, good, fun, enjoyable memories. Yet you are destroying the opportunities.




Originally Posted by Micalex
I told her that I know That i'm the cause of that feeling ( mostly) but we have am opportunity to make our lives better than it ever was before and she needs to know that I still love her very much. Guess that was wrong for me to say too because she said whenever I said something like that it just reminds her of the fact that before the affair I said I loved her but still I had an affair. I had no response. We said our goodnight's and I went home very sad.


Again, nor response.... Just DROPPED it again. Too uncomfortable!


You have got to get your head in the game.


You must make purposeful plans for your dates. Fun things that allow some time to communicate and some time to laugh and some time to forget the worries and troubles of the day.

You must purpose to avoid the land mines, not intentionally step on them to see what the response is going to be.


Do you know the first thought your wife has when she wakes up?

She thinks about how you betrayed her!


Do you know how often she thinks about the fact you betrayed her, got whacked out on drugs, left her and your family for ho bag?

She thinks about it all day!


Do you know what she thinks about when she is drifting off to sleep?

The same things!


This will occur for years until you can walk among the land mines without stepping on them intentionally.


This will happen with time and with actions.


And saying "I Love You" when she is in pain is a bonehead move you need to stop, OK!


Simple expressions of, "I'm sorry I'm the source of so much of your pain", is a good answer at times.

Saying, "I'm working to be the man you deserve", is another on at those times.

Expressing that, "I'm learning how to be different, thank you for the opportunity to show you these changes", etc. etc. etc......
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Micalex
My questions are: (1) Can someone of the same sex like a friend meet your most important emotional needs and therefore block your spouse from doing so?
(2) Do I just let time and my actions help heal bad memories?
(3) Did I not avoid love busters?( will be searching the book again for clues)


Hopefully I already answered these for you.


Look, the bottom line is, you withdrew more love from her than you deposited!

I'm sure you'll have more opportunities to make deposits.


BTW,

I'm glad to see you've read the books HNHN & LBers...

Now go re-read them again.

And then again!
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:40 PM
Micalex, if you listen to Dr. Harley's radio show frequently, it comes across that one thing he is absolutely sure of is that, under the right circumstances, if a husband sticks at it long enough and does the right things, his wife will fall in love with him.

There's a woman in my house right now who practically turns to jelly every time I touch her. She's increasingly head over heels in love with me, because I've been sticking at it a long time and learned the right things to do (and to avoid the wrong things like the plague!) Yet not long ago, she hated me. Positive actions - combined with time - are like compounding interest in the love bank account. (I totally stole this statement from HerPapaBear - who was a great help to me in learning how to make love bank deposits as a husband and avoid love bank withdrawals. You can find no better help on this site that HerPapaBear.)

If you've made severe love bank withdrawals (such as an affair) your account is in the red. Yet I assure you that Dr. Harley is correct: if you do the right things and do them long enough, your wife will fall in love with you.

If you are feeling like you are having trouble sticking with it, Dr. Harley does recommend you talk to your doctor about prescribing an antidepressant for awhile. It will help keep you rational and help keep you using your intelligence to solve the many problems you need to solve in order to recover your marriage. I did this myself several months ago when things were not going well and I was in despair. It worked pretty good. With a lot more calm I was more able to see the course of action I needed to take to fix things. It's exactly what you are being advised here: keep doing the right things, and avoiding the wrong things, for a long enough time to bring your account in your wife's love bank up from the red, to neutral, and finally past the romantic love threshold.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Hi,
Been a while since I've posted. Reading threads though.
Finally completed reading" love busters" and "his needs her needs". Just started reading " Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders".

Listen to the radio show, too! It's free, and it's like sitting in class with Dr. Harley every day.

It's one of the most important things that kept (keeps) me going long enough to recover our marriage.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Originally Posted by Micalex
On our way home I just had to ask her though what was really bothering her...and she said...that she feels her life is ruined and she only has one life.


Again, you had to dredge up her unhappiness!


When you're adultery is the cause of her pain, it's best to stop bringing it to the surface with probing questions. Dates are meant to create new, good, fun, enjoyable memories. Yet you are destroying the opportunities.

You know, I have made this mistake so, so often. Yet I have learned that if I just NEVER do this, my wife will typically talk to me later if it's something she needs me to correct. She can bring it to my attention if she wants. If she doesn't want to, asking her about it will probably be a love bank withdrawal. In some circumstances in the past as a clueless husband, I'd get better mileage out of coming here and asking, but these days if I don't know myself, it's best to wait.

Focus on making love bank deposits and avoiding withdrawals. Use whatever feedback she is willing to offer you to refine your approach. (Or improve your game, if you like sports metaphors.) The higher your balance is in her love bank, the better feedback she will offer you, I promise you. Meanwhile, there are some things that she should not talk about if the two of you want to recover, so if she seems silent or upset, respect that, and don't try to force her to bring it into the open and let you fix it.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Thanks HoldHerHand. Reminds me of the story of Craig not liking Joan's friend Bev in love busters. It's not that I don't like her friend...I am happy that she has such a good friend...I just want my wIfe to understand that when her friend interrupts the time we have to spend together it alienates me...and once her friend starts talking she tends to go on and on...even my wife admits it.

We have a safe word that we use to avoid love busters and take a step back from discussions if uncomfortable. I think though that when we use the safe word it only serves to indicate that a love buster is imminent and it makes the other partner upset anyway...

I will be asking my wife if we can have a POJA discussion about this issue...although I am afraid sometimes to speak up because as a WS I want to avoid causing more pain than I already have by having too many heavy conversations.

All you need to say is: "It bothers me when you take phone calls when we are on a date."

Then, let her decide what she is going to do about it, if anything.

If she doesn't feel like stopping behavior that bothers you, then demands, disrespect, or anger on your part will just make the problem worse. And let me assure you that you must avoid saying or doing ANYTHING that your wife even PERCEIVES as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. If she perceives it that way, then it is a love bank withdrawal, and no amount of debating over whether it really IS demanding disrespectful or angry or not will change her love bank.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/25/13 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I let her know that I thought it was inappropriate for her friend to be checking up on her constantly like that...something she does regularly. Guess that was wrong of me to say too because I was saying it out of frustration.

"I think it's inappropriate for you to do that" is a value judgment. It says there's a right and a wrong here, and you are the great moral teacher lecturing to enlighten her about what is right.

In other words, it's a disrepectful judgment.

"It bothers me when you take phone calls when we are on dates" is a statement about your feelings. It's not disrespectful at all. It doesn't say there's a right and a wrong. It just communicates information she can use to adjust her care for you - if she feels like it.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I tried telling her that maybe she should talk to them about it.

This was disrespectful, too. Unsolicited advice typically is, so it's best to avoid it entirely.

Think about it for a moment: do you think your wife has already considered this option? Do you think she's thought about talking to them? She'd already been thinking about the problem longer than you. Isn't "talk to them about it" kind of an obvious solution? Suggesting it probably looked a bit like this (I'm exaggerating): "Couldn't you just talk to them about it? This is an easy problem to solve. It's easy! Just talk to them! You sure are helpless without me to dispense my wisdom and tell you where to go." Major love bank withdrawal.

If I'd done that to my wife, she'd probably have responded "Thank you, Dr. Laura" or something else similarly sarcastic.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
(3) Did I not avoid love busters?( will be searching the book again for clues)

No, you love busted all over the place. A lot of men (or at least - me!) have trouble seeing where they are being disrespectful, so it's good to post here to get some help figuring it out. Usually a withdrawn and traumatized wife doesn't feel like being your coach to teach you how to stop disrespecting her.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 12:28 AM
Yep...you guys are right. I really did make some poor decisions last night. I just thought that I had to try to show that I care/ concerned and willing to help. But I am the worst person to offer any kind of advice to her right now. Also I reacted poorly to the friend calling her...but she does do it often and she was one of the reasons why I felt alienated in my relationship because my wife was always talking to her on the phone about the friends life problems but ignored attempts to talk about mine ( at work etc.). I would be lying if I did not acknowledge that as being my true feeling. The reality is though this was no excuse for what I did. I really never did talk about feelIngs about it back then before the affair without using love buster language and I still used love buster language last night.

Really would be taking advice on being on here more using you all for advice and support as well as Listening to Dr. Harley's radio programme more
regularly.

I guess a lot more pre planning has to go into these dates so I can avoid landmines.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Yep...you guys are right. I really did make some poor decisions last night.

I've been there!

Quote
Also I reacted poorly to the friend calling her...but she does do it often and she was one of the reasons why I felt alienated in my relationship because my wife was always talking to her on the phone about the friends life problems but ignored attempts to talk about mine ( at work etc.). I would be lying if I did not acknowledge that as being my true feeling.

It's not wrong to feel bothered by something your spouse does. And if you tell them you should just stick to saying that: "It bothers me when you ..."

Quote
I guess a lot more pre planning has to go into these dates so I can avoid landmines.

It takes some time to build new habits.

It also takes a lot of consistent, diligent effort.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 02:27 AM
My wife currently lives with her parents. When we discussed it a frw days before she said it would have no problem because she would pick up the kids from school and drop them home to stay with the parents. It's only on her getting home did she call me to indicate that noone else was home yet. I said no problem, took it on the chin and we agreed to just have dinner alone instead. My wife always had issues with trusting babysitters (before the affair I would try to plan nights out and arrange for babysitting but she was always uncomfortable with the idea). I guess I could have offered to have the kids stay with my mom but I did not know well in advance that there were going to be any problems on this occasion. In the future I would offer upfront to take care of baby sitting arrangements.

The issue she was having with her parents that week ( she said at dinner last night) had to do with them not respecting the way she wants the kids to be cared for. She said they tend to tell her what she is doing wrong but not help in her doing it right.

I actually think my mere presence is a source of her unhappiness. I don't even have to say anything really.

I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I know that this isn't about me but apart from my personal counsellor and this forum I have no else to speak to about how I'm feeling about this process. I'm just going to stick to the programme learn from my mistakes and others advice and keep improving.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 02:36 AM
Not too keen on taking antidepressants because I'm afraid of side effects. The OW I was with took them and abused them. She tried to get me to take them because I was often down after I was separated from my BS but I saw the effect it had on her behavior and avoided it.

Even when I came out of my fog and realized how many relationships/ lives I destroyed because of my affair I had a serious bout of depression which landed me in hospital and even then I avoided taking them. I preferred to go the root of thorough counselling and joined a mental health day programme for two months. I still get sad about this entire situation but I have tools now to avoid going into depression.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I know that this isn't about me but apart from my personal counsellor and this forum I have no else to speak to about how I'm feeling about this process. I'm just going to stick to the programme learn from my mistakes and others advice and keep improving.

We'll give you all the help we can. Some suggestions:

Quote
The issue she was having with her parents that week ( she said at dinner last night) had to do with them not respecting the way she wants the kids to be cared for. She said they tend to tell her what she is doing wrong but not help in her doing it right.

That kind of criticism is murder on wives. (Anyone, really.) We had to cut off contact with my parents for years because they treated my wife like this. (And me, too, come to think of it.)

So understand that your wife, from what I'm reading, is MISERABLE. Her husband had an affair and doesn't seem to get her, her parents are criticizing her and she has to live with them - I imagine there is not much brightness in her life at all.

So:

Quote
I actually think my mere presence is a source of her unhappiness. I don't even have to say anything really.

It sounds like you weren't the problem, though, at least not at first. Her initial conflict was with her parents. You have potential here to do something tricky: become the friend she talks to for support. That's DIFFICULT to do right (you can't be judgmental or disrespectful or express criticism of her OR her parents), but you need to do it because it deposits a LOT of love units.

If you can become the man that she can safely talk to her about her problems (safe means you aren't demanding, disrespectful, or angry - and disrespect includes unsolicited advice), you have the potential for her to really and truly fall deeply in love with you.

Find and read Dr. Harley's article and chapter on the "friends and enemies of good conversation." Review that material daily and practice it every time you are talking to her. This is the road map to the love bank deposits that you need to make for you guys to recover.

Quote
My wife currently lives with her parents. When we discussed it a frw days before she said it would have no problem because she would pick up the kids from school and drop them home to stay with the parents. It's only on her getting home did she call me to indicate that noone else was home yet. I said no problem, took it on the chin and we agreed to just have dinner alone instead. My wife always had issues with trusting babysitters (before the affair I would try to plan nights out and arrange for babysitting but she was always uncomfortable with the idea). I guess I could have offered to have the kids stay with my mom but I did not know well in advance that there were going to be any problems on this occasion. In the future I would offer upfront to take care of baby sitting arrangements.

There's a lot of practical suggestions here:
* find more babysitters that can be acceptable to your wife! Obviously reliance on her parents is stressing her terribly. (Don't make any demands on this subject, though.)
* take care of as much of the arrangements as she will let you take care of. (Again, no demands: don't get upset if she doesn't want you to make arrangements.)
* if she is planning to make arrangements for an evening and it doesn't work out, do not become demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it (blaming would be disrespectful - even if you think that it is factually, objectively "her fault," expressing this is disrespectful and will set you guys back)
* make the dates better with the friends of good conversation and avoiding the enemies so that getting away from the kids feels WORTH IT
* fill the rest of the time when you are not dating with concrete acts of care. Do whatever you can do for her. Become her partner in life.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 03:11 AM
Here.
Conversation is Boring
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Not too keen on taking antidepressants because I'm afraid of side effects. The OW I was with took them and abused them. She tried to get me to take them because I was often down after I was separated from my BS but I saw the effect it had on her behavior and avoided it.

I understand to some extent. My mother abused prescription drugs, so I try to avoid medications like the plague.

In my case, I took LexaPro, and the side effects were minimal. For the most part I didn't feel like I was taking anything. It did take both the highs and the lows off of my mood, which was really exactly what I needed. It might have depressed my sex drive to some extent, but I'm still not sure if that's the drug or the fact that our relationship wasn't going well at the time.

I think Dr. Harley tends to suggest Wellbutrin as really having minimal side effects, particularly minimal sexual side effects.

Quote
I still get sad about this entire situation but I have tools now to avoid going into depression.

Even if you aren't fully "depressed," if you are feeling so emotional that you tend to become disrespectful or angry, I really recommend it. When you experience setbacks on your road to recovery, when your wife's mood takes a downturn, if your habit is to first reach for disrespect or anger or demands, you are going to shoot yourself in the foot with a bazooka over and over again. It's helpful to have something blocking your brain from making every silence and every downturn into a catastrophe.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 03:14 AM
Here's a good radio clip also. Tell us what you think.

Radio Clip on Conversation
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by markos
I think Dr. Harley tends to suggest Wellbutrin as really having minimal side effects, particularly minimal sexual side effects.

Wellbutrin is an atypical antidepressant.

There are sexual side effects, but it is typically an increase in sex drive. Also, side-effects for weight is typically weight loss.

I'm thinking about requesting it myself for cessation of tobacco use, as well as the antidepressant effects.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 04:26 AM
And, FYI;

I deal with several patients across multiple life stages on various antidepressants - most reports of side effects per anecdote are poor representatives of the effectiveness of these medications, as well as poor representations of the statistical probability of experiencing any side effects.

Most of these medications take up to 3 weeks to take effect, different drugs of the same class may be more or less effective depending on the person, side effects under the same banner.


That being said, if you choose to look into this option, do know that - again - it will take up to 3 weeks for the medication to start being effective. And, you will want to monitor for adverse effects and communicate closely with your physician.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 10:25 AM
Lots of good suggestion Markos. Thanks. I've been doing well lately avoiding the key love busters ( this is not just my opinion my BS highlights when I've committed a love buster offense). We both make it a point to try and point it out. The difficulty is those little grey areas like giving unsolicited advice which I need to pay attention to. It's hard for me to not try and overcompensate for the pain I caused by trying to seize every opportunity to give what I may think is helpful advice...but I need to understand that I can't be doing that.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 10:53 AM
Thanks for the article and the video. I have a couple questions from this though

As I mentioned in an earlier post my BS and I have been spending at most 8 hours a week either on conversation ( mostly by phone) or whilst doing a recreational activity. It's been mostly because she started a new job which takes up at least 10 hours of her time a day. Because she just started she is trying to hit the ground running hard. She's a chemist by the way so some of the experiments require a lot of set up time. She has even had to leave home late at night to go check in on experiments from time to time. Something else she did when we were happily married. Anyways the question is how do we get to even having a conversation about spending more time together? I've tried introducing the conversation a couple times but stop once I realize that she believes I'm trying to be demanding. I'm thinking once the time we currently spend becomes more enjoyable she'll want to find more time to spend.

Secondly my BS told me that she hadn't finished reading love busters...I'm sensing that she way be losing interest in the process. Is their anything I can do to encourage her? I'm thinking I just continue doing the things the programme asks for and hopefullyy enthusiasm will rub off on her.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 11:07 AM
Thanks for the information and suggestions regarding antidepressants. Will be thinking about it. There is another factor in all of this which is my BS opinion. Had a conversation about the medication I was on during my therapy last year. I rejected taking the anti depressants my therapist prescribed but agreed to take zopiclone for the sleep disorder I was faced with. Also been sticking to a new vitamin regime and encouraging my BS to start taking vitamins because she's recently been complaining of lacking energy during the day. She like me is adverse to taking medication so I think it's best we talk about it before I take any new ones.

Not that I even think it's even necessary right now. I'm usually in a positive mood and my strategy for avoiding depression developed from my Day programme works fine. But I'll still think about the advice.

Thanks! think
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 02:12 PM


For some, A.D's are great, but for addicts and/or those with addictive personalities they can be a disaster.


Alternatives;
St John's Wort
Ignatia; Homeopathic Remedy
Exercise
Set healthy goals
Healthy diet
Eat regularly scheduled meals
Sleep on a regular schedule
Keep your day scheduled
Eliminate T.V. and Video Games
Vitamin D and/or sun light can decrease tired feelings

Etc...

Your plan for dealing with depression is already working well, so stick with it.


Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 02:18 PM
Have you found a job yet?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 02:25 PM
With everything that has happened with your adultery, I'd bet that Financial Support (FS)is a key need/issue for your wife.

What/how are you doing with this?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 04:55 PM
Still looking for a job. It's been slim pickings finding something in my field. Starting to look for jobs outside of my field.

My wife and I actually did our ENQ's. Financial support was on the bottom of the list but Family Support was her fifth. I know the two kinda go hand in hand so it's starting to become an issue for me that I haven't found a job yet. Been paying for expenses for kids and recreational activities with my savings which is about to run out. Starting to become anxious.

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Still looking for a job. It's been slim pickings finding something in my field. Starting to look for jobs outside of my field.

Good!

should take a week or two and then you can continue your search inside your field.


Originally Posted by Micalex
My wife and I actually did our ENQ's. Financial support was on the bottom of the list but Family Support was her fifth. I know the two kinda go hand in hand so it's starting to become an issue for me that I haven't found a job yet. Been paying for expenses for kids and recreational activities with my savings which is about to run out. Starting to become anxious.

I believe that given your current financial position, that FS is near the top of her list. That EN may drop down again once it's met, but until then, you need to consider it extremely important.

I would bet she has no interest in reconciling if you are unemployed.... Hence, FS is vital for recovery.

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 05:48 PM
Yep. A fair bit of the opportunities in my field are not in country but in other islands...but now is not a good time to be away from my wife or kids. There are so many concerns I have even regarding the kids development that are on my mind that need paying attention too...some aren't directly related to marriage reconciliation but inevitably are indirectly related.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 05:58 PM
Been trying to spend more time with the kids and talking with my wife about being more involved in helping her teach them the basic literacy and numeracy skills they need to develop at this age. Sometimes I don't know when to push or just relax and get involved as much as my wife wants because my fear is that she'll think I'm trying to use the kids to get closer to her or criticize her in some way.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Secondly my BS told me that she hadn't finished reading love busters...I'm sensing that she way be losing interest in the process. Is their anything I can do to encourage her? I'm thinking I just continue doing the things the programme asks for and hopefullyy enthusiasm will rub off on her.

Yes, she will lose interest as long as your love busters continue. You need to up your game, eliminate the disrespect and the demanding attitude, engage her in alone time and conversation for 15 hours a week (or better yet, 25, according to Dr. Harley). He enthusiasm is directly related to how well you are doing.

Dr. Harley says that if the husband in a marriage is reluctant there is not much the wife can do, but if the wife is reluctant, the husband stands a great chance of bringing his wife around if he will consistently make massive love bank deposits and avoid withdrawals.

I know in our case, my wife's enthusiasm for Marriage Builders has been a definite ZERO at times, but by sticking with it, her enthusiasm for me changed, and her enthusiasm for MB changed as well.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
We both make it a point to try and point it out. The difficulty is those little grey areas like giving unsolicited advice which I need to pay attention to.

My guess is that there are a LOT of love busters she's not pointing out. She may just not think you're ever going to change, or she may just think certain behaviors (unsolicited advice) are something she should tolerate. In our case, Prisca thought there were a lot of things she should just tolerate. So when I would do or say those things, it would make her very unhappy, but she would think she shouldn't say anything.

Nowadays I'm glad my wife has a no-tolerance attitude toward love busters. She's had enough of those for a lifetime, and she's very willing to complain if I say something that makes her unhappy.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Been trying to spend more time with the kids and talking with my wife about being more involved in helping her teach them the basic literacy and numeracy skills they need to develop at this age.

I don't have enough context here, but do you and your wife disagree about when kids need to learn these things? I picked up on your statement as asserting that there is a "proper" age to learn to read, and the fact is there's lot of disagreement over this. If by any chance you and your wife disagree, you need to make sure that you don't make statements that present your opinion as "correct," because that would be disrespectful to her.

I'm a big advocate of early reading, but through homeschooling I've learned of lots of people who insist on letting kids wait as long as they want to learn to read, and many of them seem to do just fine.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 08:41 PM
My wife and I decided agreed that honesty and openness is the most critical need that needs to be met right now so we agreed to make it a point to let the other know if a love buster occurs.

With regards to the kids my wife has highlighted not being satisfied with their development and I mostly agree in some areas for example one of my daughters is 3 and still struggling with her AbC's or actually her LMNOP's. I'm trying to get more involved in teaching them but on this and some other issues but to do this I need to spend more time with them but don't know how to approach it for fear of seeming to take over or using it as an opportunity to see my wife because that's the impression my in- laws get which causes conflict between them and my wife...so I back off. It just seems like one of those tricky situations for me to wrap my head around but patience is needed I guess.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by markos
I know in our case, my wife's enthusiasm for Marriage Builders has been a definite ZERO at times, but by sticking with it, her enthusiasm for me changed, and her enthusiasm for MB changed as well.

I want to trot this out a bit here.

One thing you have to look at, is that while MB is a marriage-saver, integrating it into your lifestyle and marriage can very easily be a disaster.

Why?

Because one thing you can get tied up in far too easily, is getting your own needs met.

What can end up happening is that the MB program gets used a SD/DJ bludgeon by one spouse or the other - "You should be meeting my needs! You should be avoiding Love Busters!"

Disrespectful Judgments via appeal to authority. MB becomes the indesputable authority in all situations.

That makes the program quite a turn-off. The program - as well as the selfish and disrespectful spouse brandishing it - become very unattractive.


Instead, if one spouse begins to MODEL the program through their own actions, and in the process builds a positive Love Bank balance, and then INVITES their spouse to participate, it is a much more attractive solution.


In other words; it begins with YOU.

Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
With regards to the kids my wife has highlighted not being satisfied with their development and I mostly agree in some areas for example one of my daughters is 3 and still struggling with her AbC's or actually her LMNOP's. I'm trying to get more involved in teaching them but on this and some other issues but to do this I need to spend more time with them

Okay, good - the main thing I wanted to make sure of was that your wife was in agreement with you (as opposed to you DJ'ing her over the kids' development, which I could easily see happening in some marriages).

You may not have read enough about Marriage Builders yet, but Dr. Harley actually prescribes 15 hours of Family Commitment time a week, as well as the 15 hours of Undivided Attention time. You spend the time together as a family, and among other things you spend that time passing your values on to your children. This is for the FC need, but even if neither spouse listed Family Commitment very highly, I think Dr. Harley still strongly suggests you spend this time (so you don't realize later that it was actually a bigger need than you thought -- too late).

You could easily make time to sing the ABCs with your 3 year old every day (by phone if nothing else). I find if I sing a song to my kids every day it isn't long until they can sing it with me.

But start looking into the larger issue of Family Commitment time. You can read about it in His Needs Her Needs For Parents, among other books by Dr. Harley.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by markos
I know in our case, my wife's enthusiasm for Marriage Builders has been a definite ZERO at times, but by sticking with it, her enthusiasm for me changed, and her enthusiasm for MB changed as well.

I want to trot this out a bit here.

One thing you have to look at, is that while MB is a marriage-saver, integrating it into your lifestyle and marriage can very easily be a disaster.

Why?

Because one thing you can get tied up in far too easily, is getting your own needs met.

What can end up happening is that the MB program gets used a SD/DJ bludgeon by one spouse or the other - "You should be meeting my needs! You should be avoiding Love Busters!"

Disrespectful Judgments via appeal to authority. MB becomes the indesputable authority in all situations.

That makes the program quite a turn-off. The program - as well as the selfish and disrespectful spouse brandishing it - become very unattractive.


Instead, if one spouse begins to MODEL the program through their own actions, and in the process builds a positive Love Bank balance, and then INVITES their spouse to participate, it is a much more attractive solution.


In other words; it begins with YOU.

HHH, that is a brilliant, excellent, and notable post.

You can't get your needs met by using demands, disrespect, and anger! That is the tool most frustrated husbands usually reach for. And unfortunately many of them misuse Marriage Builders to justify these anti-marriage behaviors. (Usually if husbands don't have these behaviors, they won't be frustrated about their marriage. Hmm...)

Dr. Harley told me repeatedly not to do anything my wife would perceive as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. Over and over again. Numerous posts on the private forum, not to mention lots of calls with my coach that aren't documented. I'd leave messages with our coach about a complaint I had with my wife - and the only answer I'd get back from Dr. Harley via our coach would be "no love busters, markos." smile The message is very clear: Dr. Harley's belief is that in order to have a good marriage, you have to avoid these at all cost, even if it means putting aside the rest of Marriage Builders for awhile and not getting your needs met.

It's worth mentioning that if a WIFE can't get her husband on board with meeting her emotional needs, Dr. Harley typically advises her to prepare for a separation. But if a HUSBAND can't get his wife on board, Dr. Harley typically advises him to work harder on eliminating love busters and meeting emotional needs and building a compatible lifestyle. No demands, no ultimatums, no separations, etc.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/26/13 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by markos
I know in our case, my wife's enthusiasm for Marriage Builders has been a definite ZERO at times, but by sticking with it, her enthusiasm for me changed, and her enthusiasm for MB changed as well.

I want to trot this out a bit here.

One thing you have to look at, is that while MB is a marriage-saver, integrating it into your lifestyle and marriage can very easily be a disaster.

Why?

Because one thing you can get tied up in far too easily, is getting your own needs met.

What can end up happening is that the MB program gets used a SD/DJ bludgeon by one spouse or the other - "You should be meeting my needs! You should be avoiding Love Busters!"

Disrespectful Judgments via appeal to authority. MB becomes the indesputable authority in all situations.

That makes the program quite a turn-off. The program - as well as the selfish and disrespectful spouse brandishing it - become very unattractive.


Instead, if one spouse begins to MODEL the program through their own actions, and in the process builds a positive Love Bank balance, and then INVITES their spouse to participate, it is a much more attractive solution.


In other words; it begins with YOU.

HHH, that is a brilliant, excellent, and notable post.

You can't get your needs met by using demands, disrespect, and anger! That is the tool most frustrated husbands usually reach for. And unfortunately many of them misuse Marriage Builders to justify these anti-marriage behaviors. (Usually if husbands don't have these behaviors, they won't be frustrated about their marriage. Hmm...)

Dr. Harley told me repeatedly not to do anything my wife would perceive as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. Over and over again. Numerous posts on the private forum, not to mention lots of calls with my coach that aren't documented. I'd leave messages with our coach about a complaint I had with my wife - and the only answer I'd get back from Dr. Harley via our coach would be "no love busters, markos." smile The message is very clear: Dr. Harley's belief is that in order to have a good marriage, you have to avoid these at all cost, even if it means putting aside the rest of Marriage Builders for awhile and not getting your needs met.

It's worth mentioning that if a WIFE can't get her husband on board with meeting her emotional needs, Dr. Harley typically advises her to prepare for a separation. But if a HUSBAND can't get his wife on board, Dr. Harley typically advises him to work harder on eliminating love busters and meeting emotional needs and building a compatible lifestyle. No demands, no ultimatums, no separations, etc.


Would you believe that I had actually sensed that about you, Markos?

When I began to write that post, I actually intended to call you to the carpet on it, as I know you have a long history here, and you have a tremendous posting track record... but still stumbled in the blocks.


It's not enough, as a husband, to know Marriage Builders, you have to live it for it to have a positive effect in your Marriage.

THAT is one of the most notable revalations one can have here.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/27/13 12:49 PM
I'm getting it now. Avoid love busters at all cost. This needs to be my new creedo. Work on myself and let my love units deposited into my wife's account motivate her to deposit into mine.

I also take the point about total FC time.There has been very little time spent with me, the wife and kids.

I'll be drilling these two ideas into my brain for the next few weeks.

Thanks guys.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/27/13 02:14 PM
What is the schedule your wife is currently allowing for you and your kids?

What is your current dating schedule?

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/27/13 05:53 PM
I get the kids every other Saturday...also I viit them at least once a week in the afternoon for 3-4 hours. On average I would say I spend 20 hrs. with them.

The dating schedule right now is Tuesday's and Thursday's lunch for 90 minutes. Every other Friday 5 hours minimum engaging in some form of recreational activity.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/27/13 05:56 PM
Forgot to mention...When the kids have the day off from day care I take care of them for the day. This week for example they are off all week and I have them for two days. Forgot to mention that. I would like to spend more time with wife and kids buy we used POJA to come to this agreeable decision.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/27/13 10:49 PM
I still believe you need to discuss FS with your wife.

I'll bet it is near the top of her EN's currently.

How attractive can an unemployed husband, living on his savings be? I'd actually bet your financial situation is depleting love units. This needs fixed quickly!

Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/28/13 12:25 AM
When we did the ENQ, FS was 9th on her list. We discussed it last night and she indicated that it might actually be higher on her list but she isn't sure. We tried to focus the discussion last night on what might be our immediate emotional needs. I am going to view it as one of the highest needs and of course finding employment soon will fulfill my own personal needs.

We also agreed that it is ok for me to expand my search to jobs in my field out of country since she would consider moving with me. My dilemma in this regard though is ( as I said before) if I do get a job out of country and most likely I would and she doesn't want to move with me, which is likely due to the stage we are at in our reconciliation I will not be able to accept the position because now is not a good time to be away from the family.

Before I decided to quit my job and move as far away a possible from OW, I knew that the job hunt would have been a difficult one. But I know I made the right decision and God will be my guide.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/28/13 12:38 AM
Then take a job outside of your field. You can do this and continue your hunt while employed.

Any job is better than sitting around playing video games on the couch.
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/28/13 12:56 AM
Haven't been sitting around playing games. Don't have a game system...mostly reading and Food channel. Cooking is a passion of mine. But i get your point. As I mentioned before I've started the search outside of my field.
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/28/13 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
which is likely due to the stage we are at in our reconciliation I will not be able to accept the position because now is not a good time to be away from the family.

Micalex, there is never a good time to live away from your family.

It doesn't take very long at all listening to Dr. Harley to learn that living apart is a bad idea for marriage. Are you really getting into learning this program so you can put it into practice?
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 05/29/13 02:54 AM
Yes i am Markos. I really want to become the man, husband and father God intended for me to be. This program will not only save my marriage but my life. For me this is a life changing exercise.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/06/13 04:28 PM
How's it going??

Job??

Conversations w/BS??
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/09/13 04:14 AM
Not going so well. Still haven't found a job yet. Conversations with the BS haven't been great either. We had a couple incidents this week. Very little time is being spent where we can have undivided attention. She seems to still be too busy with work and the little time we have allocated keeps getting interrupted by her friends. I tried expressing my feelings about it using the language suggested to me by you guys and the books. I was told that i was trying to control her which led to me having an angry outburst and led to her having an angry outburst about it. We pulled ourselves back a bit had a POJA discussion and decided that we would only call or see each other when we feel like it.

I am not enthusiastic about that because to me it goes against Dr. H's suggestions. I know it would be hard to want to see my despicable face because of the pain but to me if we cannot even find time to talk how can we ever rebuild our marriage. But what can I do...I just have to go along because I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to control anything. All of this I let her know.

At any rate I have bigger issues to deal with like finding a job so I'm back on my feet financially and thus allow for me to meet my BS's needs and those of my children as well as myself.

At times this week I've been wondering whether I made the wrong decision to give up my job and try to reconcile my marriage...but honestly it was the only way I was going to get away from the OW.

So much more I can say.

To sum it all up though...my marriage is hanging by a thread...I keep making mistakes...and I feel like I'm damned if I do; damned if I don't.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/09/13 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
Not going so well. Still haven't found a job yet. Conversations with the BS haven't been great either. We had a couple incidents this week. Very little time is being spent where we can have undivided attention. She seems to still be too busy with work and the little time we have allocated keeps getting interrupted by her friends. I tried expressing my feelings about it using the language suggested to me by you guys and the books. I was told that i was trying to control her which led to me having an angry outburst and led to her having an angry outburst about it. We pulled ourselves back a bit had a POJA discussion and decided that we would only call or see each other when we feel like it.

I am not enthusiastic about that because to me it goes against Dr. H's suggestions. I know it would be hard to want to see my despicable face because of the pain but to me if we cannot even find time to talk how can we ever rebuild our marriage. But what can I do...I just have to go along because I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to control anything. All of this I let her know.

At any rate I have bigger issues to deal with like finding a job so I'm back on my feet financially and thus allow for me to meet my BS's needs and those of my children as well as myself.

At times this week I've been wondering whether I made the wrong decision to give up my job and try to reconcile my marriage...but honestly it was the only way I was going to get away from the OW.

So much more I can say.

To sum it all up though...my marriage is hanging by a thread...I keep making mistakes...and I feel like I'm damned if I do; damned if I don't.

Stop the angry outbursts.


If you are upset, end the conversation. Having an angry outburst is never going to do you any good.



"This conversation no longer feels safe."
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by Micalex
To sum it all up though...my marriage is hanging by a thread...I keep making mistakes...and I feel like I'm damned if I do; damned if I don't.

A great deal of what you are doing has to do with getting what "you" want. You are still doing everything to achieve "your" goal and the wreckless way you go about it just continues to deplete your wife's love bank account.

I'm reminded of what Dr' Harley say's here:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
My overarching goal in marriage is for a husband and wife to be in love with each other. And that goal is achieved by making as many Love Bank deposits and as few withdrawals as possible. Win-win solutions to marital conflicts achieve that objective. Win-lose solutions do not.

So convincing a husband that he should always strive for win-win solutions to marital conflicts is my first and most important step in helping him learn to make his wife happy. Even when she gets her way in a win-lose solution, it's not necessarily a happy outcome for her because she knows that he wasn't happy making her happy.

You can find the entire article here ----> Article
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 02:24 AM
"because she knows that he wasn't happy making her happy."

This is one of the reasons why she says she feels manipulated and controlled.




Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
And trying to force your solution onto your spouse is abusive and controlling -- it leads to marital disaster.


Please pay close attention to this part of the quoted article
Posted By: Micalex Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 06:25 PM
Paying attention. I know I'm making mistakes. My wife and I actually figured out what the issue is. The fact is that we are applying POJA incorrectly. Even though we are using it what we aren't doing ( me more than her) is discussing issues, giving ourselves time to think about it, revisiting it, giving more time if necessary then making an agreement that we are both enthusiastic about. We are making agreements but not ones we are enthusiastic about. We should neither of us agree to anything we are not rnthusiastic about. For my part it's 'fear' that if I don't agree to what is being proposed I'm going to seem selfish. For her part ...like the quote from the article you guys sited...if she knows I'm not enthusiastic then she also knows I'm not happy making her happy.

I need to make sure that Whatever I'm doing I'm happy in doing it. I need to also stop being a renter and start being a buyer.

* On another note do you guys know of CREATIVE ways for me to show affection. I have ideas but I want to get ideas from others.
Posted By: Prisca Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 06:49 PM
Quote
The fact is that we are applying POJA incorrectly. Even though we are using it what we aren't doing ( me more than her) is discussing issues, giving ourselves time to think about it, revisiting it, giving more time if necessary then making an agreement that we are both enthusiastic about.
Your making a mistake long before all that.
You're still having AOs.
You CANNOT negotiate if you are having AOs.

What are you doing about that?
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by Micalex
Not going so well. Still haven't found a job yet. Conversations with the BS haven't been great either. We had a couple incidents this week. Very little time is being spent where we can have undivided attention. She seems to still be too busy with work and the little time we have allocated keeps getting interrupted by her friends. I tried expressing my feelings about it using the language suggested to me by you guys and the books. I was told that i was trying to control her which led to me having an angry outburst and led to her having an angry outburst about it. We pulled ourselves back a bit had a POJA discussion and decided that we would only call or see each other when we feel like it.

I am not enthusiastic about that because to me it goes against Dr. H's suggestions. I know it would be hard to want to see my despicable face because of the pain but to me if we cannot even find time to talk how can we ever rebuild our marriage. But what can I do...I just have to go along because I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to control anything. All of this I let her know.

At any rate I have bigger issues to deal with like finding a job so I'm back on my feet financially and thus allow for me to meet my BS's needs and those of my children as well as myself.

At times this week I've been wondering whether I made the wrong decision to give up my job and try to reconcile my marriage...but honestly it was the only way I was going to get away from the OW.

So much more I can say.

To sum it all up though...my marriage is hanging by a thread...I keep making mistakes...and I feel like I'm damned if I do; damned if I don't.

Stop the angry outbursts.


If you are upset, end the conversation. Having an angry outburst is never going to do you any good.



"This conversation no longer feels safe."

Dr. Harley makes no bones about it: you can't make it work if you won't eliminate angry outbursts.

Are you following Dr. Harley's recommendations for this? Do you have a biofeedback meter, yet?
Posted By: markos Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
The fact is that we are applying POJA incorrectly. Even though we are using it what we aren't doing ( me more than her) is discussing issues, giving ourselves time to think about it, revisiting it, giving more time if necessary then making an agreement that we are both enthusiastic about.

Here is Dr. Harley's instructions for how to use the POJA:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Notice that the first step requires you to eliminate demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts.

If you are still having angry outbursts, you can't get to the POJA yet.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 06/10/13 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Micalex
* On another note do you guys know of CREATIVE ways for me to show affection. I have ideas but I want to get ideas from others.

Thread link

Another link
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Momentum building first steps??? - 07/06/13 06:35 PM
Have you ever written a full timeline out for your BW?

How's the job front going?
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