Okay I will try to keep this as succinct as possible.

My wife - 26
Me - 28
We've been married almost 8 years - we've been together for 10 years. I'm really the only guy she's been with since she was 16. Obvious now that she married too young. I love her more than anything, despite what she has done recently. I know I could forgive her if only she would have a change of heart and recognize her mistakes and emotional immaturity.

A little more than a month ago she told me she wasn't happy and was thinking about leaving me. She gave me all the reasons in the book except for the REAL reason (she was having an emotional affair with a co-worker). A week later she left. A week after that I found out she had started sleeping with this co-worker the DAY she moved out.

I approached, her, and I'm pretty sure I said all the wrong things. I called her a slut, a whore, and a coward. She was FURIOUS. A few days later I apologized about the name calling. A few weeks after that I actually gave her a birthday present with a note apologizing again for the name calling.

It was at about this time I came across these forums and read the exposure 101 thread. After reading this, I decided I wasn't going to wait to just see if this affair blew over. I sent out a MASS message to all of our family and friends, using the template provided. I found out through the grape vine that she was PISSED. Saying that I was trying to embarrass her and slander her, and that this is a private matter.

I sent her a few texts saying you have no idea how much this affair is hurting me. I told her that I'm sorry you're upset about the mass facebook messaging, but that the reason I sent it was to get support from friends and family so that you will make the right decision and end this affair, NOT to embarrass you. I then went on to say you need to respect our marriage and end this affair at least until our marriage is resolved and settled one way or the other. I then said - luckily you have a husband who is a changed man because of this, and is willing to heal and rebuild. I truly love you, and would walk through hell for you, even if you don't deserve it right now.

Well she is not responding, and seemingly refusing to talk to me.

Please note that before this happened we had a very loving, committed marriage. It's like something has exploded in her brain. We were trying to have a baby 2 months ago (1 month before she left me). We just bought a second house, and now she thinks she can just walk away from those financial responsibilities.

Before the exposure technique, my thought was: Just go no contact, and maybe she'll wake up one day and maybe she won't. Well I woke up and realized I don't want to wait. I am either going to save my marriage NOW, or just cut her out of my life completely forever - as much as I will always love her.

So my NEXT plan of action is to coerce her to go to counseling with me. This is going to be my line (she is currently living in our old house with some relative renters):

"Look, I know you want to move out and get your own apartment. I have done my budget, and I have found out that I can SQUEEK by and take care of both houses. I will be willing to do this, and I will sign uncontested divorce papers, if, and only if you go to counseling with me - not necessarily to reconcile, but so that we can better understand where each of us are at, and so that we can resolve this peacefully. Don't you think after 10 years of giving my life to you I deserve at least that much?"

I should also mention I also sent 2 letters to her place of business. One to the owner, and one to the CEO. I don't think they have an HR department. They should have got those letters yesterday, but I have not heard anything about it. Again, I used the template from the exposure 101 thread.

I've also decided that if she says no to the counseling, I am going to tell her, well, think about it for a week, this is a big decision. And in the mean time I am going to organize an intervention from family and friends to try and convince her that I deserve at least couple's counseling.

What do you guys think??

OJ,

But did you expose the OM, he should normally be the first target as exposure will cause OM to drop your WW like a hot potato.

Don't forget that some of the effect will only occur with time.

God Bless
Gamma

Oddjob, welcome to Marriage Builders. I would not even mention counseling, for God's sake. You don't even want that to happen because counseling is destructive to marriages. Marriage counselors don't GET the fog that comes with an affair so they validate destructive wayward behavior.

For example, if you get her there and your wife tells the MC that she is "done" and wants a divorce, guess what will happen?? The MC will try to persuade YOU the marriage is over and then the sessions will be all about getting you to accept that. Then her marriage wrecking agenda will be VALIDATED by a counselor. Do you want that?

Have you contacted the OM's parents?

He was already exposed before I did the exposure on my side. His family is furious with him. He is being ex-communicated from his church, and getting a divorce. In his own words, he said "She is so hot, I think she is worth ruining my marriage over" (referring to my wife as hot). My wife has found a winner hasn't she? I forgot to mention as well that this guy's wife has been battling ovarian cancer for the last year. I can't believe my wife is infatuated with this guy - he has obviously been sweet talking her for months. How he convinced her he was a good guy for abandoning his cancerous wife, I have no idea...

Do you guys think trying to obligate my wife to go to counseling is a good idea? Or should I take a different step? Again, the goal is to save my marriage, and get my wife to humble her self and be repentant. Right now she has no desire to ever see me again I am pretty sure. Especially after the exposure. It's like something just short circuited in her brain. I am still so confused by this. She was head over heels for me literally a few months ago.

I have also left a few sexual harassment lawyers a few messages, and am waiting to hear back from them. If I have any grounds to file a lawsuit, should I? Or at that point will it just be out of spite, and not trying to save the marriage? I just want to do the right thing.

No, I do NOT want that. I see what you are saying. And I actually kind of got that vibe from the counselor I am seeing also... The reason I was excited about the counseling idea is that she told me that with cases like mine, reconciliation was about 50/50... Maybe she only told me that because she wants $. I dunno..

Any children?

Sorry I am spamming this thread, but another thing I should mention. From my objective perspective, she is in complete denial about the reasons she left me. She thinks it has NOTHING to do with the OM. Her own words: "Me and OJ(me), and me and OM are two completely different things."

No children, thank God...

God no! You are giving the crack addict her crack.

Fog speak - Ignore

Thanks for the support thus far guys. You guys are awesome. So if not persuading her to go to counseling, what next?

My suggestion is you think very hard about if you want to attempt recovery. No children makes it much easier to leave cleanly.

Has there been any signs of this bad behavior before? Has there been inappropriate boundaries before this?

Nuclear response to try and end the affair. Melody it would be appropriate I think to bring out the "video"

No, this is completely new. She has always been loving, loyal, and committed. She turned into a new person over-night it seems. She is the love of my life, and I am completely willing to do whatever it takes to make her see the light. I would be willing to spend years rebuilding our relationship and trust if only she was willing to. I just don't want to wait a year before she realizes that she really screwed up. I mean, not to toot my own horn, but I have been a pretty great husband. She even laughed out loud once at the notion of my cheating on her, that's how much she trusts me. I have worked so hard on my career to give her every material possession she could ever want. I would always tell her how much I love her. Physical affection was always present. Even after over a month, I am just still so shocked and confused by this.

Have you personally spoken to his wife and his parents? PERSONALLY?


Only if you want to end up divorced. The way to save the marriage is to wreck the affair. Don't wreck your marriage by going to marriage counseling. They are little more than divorce facilitators and have no idea in the world how to save a marriage.


It is doubtful she will EVER become humble or repentant. And it is not necessary to save your marriage.

video?

Yes, you should do that! It will put pressure on the affair. THAT will help you save your marriage.

Listen to the vets here and do Marriage Builders. Thats why you're here, right?

Yes, I have talked to his wife. I talk to her all the time on facebook. I have not talked to his parents, but she has told me his parents are very very upset.

Hmm, interesting.. being repentant isn't necessary to save the marriage? I must be missing something.

We know this. An affair is an addiction so she has justified it in her mind. That is CLASSIC affair behavior. She rewrites history in an attempt to justify it.

All affairees act the same. It is classic behavior.

Will your parents go with you to visit his parents? If they can't/won't, I would get in your car and go there.

Have you exposed to the OM's facebook friends? How old is this piece of crap?

And don't worry about the remorse part. You are not going to get remorse out of a falling down drunk. It isn't necessary to save your marriage. Just trust us on this. We believe in remorse, but you aren't going to get it from a FEMALE wayward.

Here is the message you need to send to this POS:

If I go see his parents, what should I say?

Also, I have tried to get contact information for the OM's friends, but his wife's side of the family won't give me the information because they don't want to stir up anymore than they have to - since they have already decided to get divorced.

How old is the OM?

Does he still live at home?

I would add the PASTOR to the list of people to meet with. Your job is raise holy unmitigated hell in the OM's life. OM are cowards and worms and it doesn't take a lot to run them off.

You should be contacting everyone you can possibly find.

Have your wife's parents spoken to him?

Ask for their help in persuading their scummy son to leave your wife alone.


Can you find him on facebook?

OddJob,

An affair is an addiction every bit as strong as any other narcotic, so your WW is literally not herself, just like crack addicts who will do ANYTHING to get another high.

If the OM has children they need to be told as well.

What is the OMs age, sounds like he is a seasoned older cheater who works a system with women. Find out from OMW if this has happened before.

God Bless
Gamma

He's in his mid 20's.
I believe he is still living at home, and his wife moved out to her parents maybe? I am not sure on that.
His pastor (bishop) is actually his Dad.
I wish I had a way to contact all of his friends and family. The one's that I know at this point have been uncooperative in giving me that information.

Does he have a facebook page? Have you checked to see if he just has you blocked?

Will his wife not help you kill this affair by giving you contact information? This would be to her benefit too, because if you can kill the affair, she won't have to deal with your wife in the future.

And without re-reading this thread, have you exposed to her entire family? Will they help you in killing the affair?

He has since deleted his facebook account, as has my wife. There are no children involved on both sides.

I was able to find a google plus account for the OM. I was able to send about 4 messages out to people that know him, one of which had his same last name. Don't know how good that will do, but it is something.

Now to find out how to contact his parents.. Hmm..

Can you call his wife and get the contact information?

And have you signed up as someone else on facebook to see if they just have you blocked?

I actually just messaged the wife's aunt to see if she would give me his parents contact info. We'll see.

Also, the OM's facebook page is definitely gone for good.

Trying to find a lawyer that is experienced with alienation of affection cases currently. Everyone I've talked to so far says they've never done a case like that.

Two questions:

In what legal jurisdiction (state, province, country) do you reside?

Are you prepared to create a [censored]-storm at their employer's to bring this to a head?

Also, start ruining her life - the life that facilitated her cheating choices.

• Cancel all credits cards she has.
• Isolate all other financial assets from her access.
• If her vehicle is titled to you, find it, pull the plates, and cancel the insurance.
• Change the locks in your home.

Another way to go is to SUE the company for enabling this workplace affair. I would check on that too.

Do you know his parents names? Have you checked directory assistance? Do you know what church the father pastors?

I will change the locks. I hadn't thought about kicking her out of the home. And the car's title I think is under both our names, so I can't do anything about that. I already got her to sign over the house titles to me though, which is HUGE.

I live in Utah.

The lawyer I talked to seemed to think I wouldn't have a case against the company. Should I get a second opinion?

When I do all this, what ends up saving the marriage? What will her state of mind be when she wants to reconcile? If not regretful?

She was going to pay the mortgage this month on the old house because she is staying there. Should I just tell her I want her out in a week, I will pay for the mortgage? If I kick her out she definitely won't pay, heh.

Are you Mormon? Is OM Mormon? I'm assuming the answer is yes, since you referred to him as a bishop.

If he's the bishop of an LDS ward, it shouldn't be too hard to find him. And he could be a great ally for you, considering the ramifications this affair will have on his son's standing in the church.

Dude, your chances are worse than most here because:

• Your WW is independently employed.
• She has access to a jointly-owned domicile that you cannot ban her from.
• You have no children.
• POSOM has no cares about ending his marriage.
• WW is immaturely living in a fantasy-land.
• You appear to be a nice guy.

Do not worry about any "resentment" she might feel if the affair blows up on her. FIRST BLOW THE DAMN THING UP!

To REALLY ruin her life, I'd lock up the house you're currently in, tight as a drum, and go move into the house she's set up as her sex-palace! It's your house too, isn't it? (Do it when she's not there, breaking in if you have to.) and let her return to find you baking brownies. This will at least eliminate the second and sixth bullets above.

If you have proof you can divorce on the grounds of adultery in Utah.

OMG this is such a good idea.

Also, she makes like $11/hour... I really wouldn't call that independent.

Hmm.. If I move into that house though, she will probably just leave and find her own place, then refuse to help pay the mortgage. Still think it's worth it? I mean I CAN afford it if I had to.

That would be a GREAT IDEA because you would make it harder for her to carry on her affair. If she leaves and finds her own place, that will put more pressure on her affair. You shouldn't be providing their affair lair.

And you really need to go speak the OM's father.

The way you end up saving the marriage is to kill the affair. That is your only chance. Her state of mind will return to normal if you can do that. It is the same as taking the crack pipe away from the crack head. He might be furious when you take it away, but when he sobers up he will thank you!

Another value in talking ot the OM's father is it allows you to tell your wife there is no future with the OM's family because his family will never accept her affair. Tell her that the OM's family all knows about the affair.

Also note that in Utah Adultery is taken into account when alimony and child support/custody issues as decided.

And the Bishop/fathers status within the community

...and find her own place...
Really?

"Hello, Mr. (probably-strict-Mormon) Landlord.
I want to rent a place from you. I have no
furniture, no references, am a well-known
adulteress, work at a subsistence-level job
making $11 per hour, and probably do not have
the security deposit to initiate our transaction.

Whaddaya say?"

Hah, ya.. I think she just wants to rent a room from someone somewhere. I am highly highly considering moving back into the house she is in after talking with you guys.

In all reality if I moved into the old house, she would probably just move in with her OM, even though she says that's not what she wants to do.

Maybe that would be a good thing though, because she'd probably get sick of him faster. The guy is a complete douche bag.

If he still lives at home, and he is indeed Mormon, and his father is a bishop, this scenario seems highly unlikely. His parents certainly wouldn't let her move into their home, and if OM still lives there, it's probably because he can't afford to live on his own. If your WW only earns $11 an hour, it seems unlikely that she would be able to support them either.

I mean I think the OM has his own place of residence.

I am going to see about changing the locks on my new house this weekend, and then take some bare essentials over to my old house. I hope I have the balls to do this. Seeing my wife right now just puts butterflies in my stomach.

Oh, I misunderstood. Still, locating his parents and speaking with his father should be your top priority. A bishop is not going to be happy that his son is messing around with a married woman. If OM is active at all in the church, this could very well mean excommunication for him. Do you know the OM's full name? If you can find out his last name, it should be very simple to find his father. There probably won't be too many bishops in the area with the same last name as the OM (unless his last name is Smith, lol).

If I do move back, how should I interact with her? How should the tone of my voice be? Should I avoid her? Should I talk like nothing is wrong?

His father and mother already both know about the affair. He has already gone through disciplinary counsel, and I believe is being ex-communicated. Since this has happened, I am not sure what good I could do by meeting with his parents, but I guess it couldn't hurt.

Should I even go as far as to sleep in her room if I move into the old house?

I am sure what good it would do. You, as the beleaguered husband, can ask them to persuade their son to leave your wife alone. You can put pressure on them to do so and make sure they know the affair is still on. You need to be causing as much havoc as possible in the affair instead of dismissing our advice.

Just be really nice, but very firm. Don't act like nothing is wrong, that would be creepy. Tell her you are not going to allow her to live there while carrying on her affair.

Put the fear of God into them more. Their scumbag sons actions affect them also. If I were you I would take this to the Stake President and ask him for assistance. He will then call the dad/bishop and then things get interesting. Bishops rely on good reputation. This could destroy his position in his ward. Make sure he understands this........ hint hint

You don't know what they do know and they don't know what YOU know. You need to speak to them and find out what they know.

OddJob,

Should I even go as far as to sleep in her room if I move into the old house?

Not until she is tested for STDs, and has a 3 month quarantine period, followed by another STD test.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes sleep in your common main bedroom. Why wouldn't you?

WHY does he have his own residence? Are you sure? That doesn't add up. There is something you don't know.

Cool, I will do it.

I found his address and phone number. Should I just drive over there after work? I am thinking in person might be more effective than a phone call.

Oh she won't be joining me in the room, I can assure you. She wants nowhere near me.

I am not clear on the OM's living arrangement at the moment. I think his wife who he is divorcing moved out (to her parents maybe?), and he is living in their original residence. I am really not sure though.

There are always reasons for an A never excuses.

What would your WW say were/are the reasons she felt compelled to look outside the M? What is she getting from him that she wasn't getting from you?

Do you have SAA and Love Busters? Are you aware of the EN's questionnaire?

Were you committing LB's?

Are you familiar with Plan A?


Besides exposure and running this POS off, these are the questions you need to address. This path may lead her back to you (hopefully).


Eliminating ALL LB�s from your behavior and focusing on meeting as many of her EN�s as you possibly can might move this in the right direction. It is your job to show her that there is hope for a brighter future with you.

I can completely relate to where you are at friend. Sorry for your pain

It is soooo hard to go down this path when ALL my friends and family are saying I just look desperate and am grasping at straws, that I just need to move on with my life, that I'm acting crazy, that there is nothing I can do to change her mind, that I'm just going to irritate her and chase her further away.. ARGGG. Right now this forum is the ONLY support I have for not giving up on my marriage.

Who are you getting this information from? If it's from your WW, don't believe anything she tells you. Waywards lie about this stuff all the time. You need to confirm all of this information. It's entirely possible they aren't even getting a divorce.

Most people unfamiliar with MB (including myself in a prior life) view an A as the kiss of death.

Until someone goes through the experience..it is impossible to predict how someone will react.

Most marriages don't end after an A.

MB will give you the BEST shot at recovery. My FWW and I are in our 15th month of R. It is brutally difficult but (not withstanding working through the A), our M has never been better!

There is hope. However you can only control YOU. If you can focus on that, your path will be much easier.

Friend, SLOW down. You are going 100mph.

Take a deep breath and slow down. R is a Marathon not a race. This will not be healed in days/weeks. R is measured in years.

Ya, I feel like I'm behind schedule though, because for about 3 weeks after I learned about the affair I was taking the NC approach. Right now I feel like if I can even get to the R stage that would take an absolute miracle. She wants nothing to do with me ever again at the moment.

Once I am ready to pursue a lawsuit against the OM, should I have my lawyer contact him and threaten the lawsuit unless he ends the affair? Or should I just file it?

I agree in person is better. Can your parents go with you?

Just have the lawyer contact him to threaten the lawsuit regardless of whether he ends the affair or not.

Unfortunately my parents are not supportive of what I'm doing. They want me to move on with my life, they think my wife is a lost cause.

Are your parents LDS? Most LDS parents want the marriages to work out.

Yes, they are LDS, but they are a different kind of LDS. I think if they saw some hope they would have a different opinion. But they just think my wife is just long gone. She very well may be.

One thing my parents told me that seems to make sense, so let me know what you guys think about this, is that if I file a lawsuit against my wife's OM, that it will make me look like an enemy in her eyes. That it will only make her sympathize with the OM even more, and bring them closer together.

Were you and your wife sealed in the temple?

Have you gone to OM's Stake President? What about Your Bishop for your WW?

One thing about the LDS church is that adultery is a major no, no. Ex-communication.

Me and my wife are not Mormon. I believe the OM has been or is in the process of being ex-communicated.

Wow and that hasn't ended the affair from his side?

I think you will get positive support when you go to OM's parents.

One of my WH's OW was LDS and when I exposed I never saw quicker and swifter support to break up the affair then from her LDS parents.

I'm in Utah also, but not LDS.

I hope so, but the OM's wife has told me that the parents are already heavily involved, in fact the OM's dad is a bishop, and brought the OM to disciplinary council where they decided to ex-communicate him.

his ex-communication didn't end the affair because the OM does not give 2 sh**s about the church anymore.

OJ,

They don't give a dam for now! However once the drug of the affair wears off and they find themselves cut off from their former lives it will be a very different story.

God Bless
Gamma

When the bishop dad starts getting heat from the Stake President, things may change. Go see the Stake President.

Wrong.

Initially while in the fog she will see you as the enemy trying to take her crack pipe away.

After the fog clears she will see you as a husband who loved her enough to do anything to protect her from the scumbag she is with.

Your wife is in affair addiction. Compare it to crack addiction. What do crack addicts initially do when you try and save them? What do they do after the crack is gone and the withdrawal has subsided?

I'm getting the locks changed on our new house on monday, and hopefully moving back into the old house on tuesday. She is going to be so pissed .

I hope she can someday see him for a scumbag. He has a pretty bad track record. Apparently when his wife got cancer he would solicit sex on Craig's list, and he would also pay massage therapists for sex (Since his wife couldn't have sex anymore). My wife tells me "You don't know the whole story, he's been honest with me about some of those things".

I'm just not sure she will ever see him for the scumbag that he is. Apparently he is very nice, and was very loving to his last wife before she got cancer. So he obviously knows how to play a woman. Even if I succeed in ending the affair (which honestly feels like a slim chance at this point), I'm not sure how she will ever see him as a scumbag. He has obviously sweet talked her into thinking he is this awesome guy, and that he was the victim of his marriage etc..

You are the enemy NOW. You are the enemy. They are close NOW. Do you understand this? We would not be having this discussion if they were not having an affair. You don't get any closer than that. And if you want that to change, then you will run off the OM by pursuing any charges against him that you can.

Keep in mind that your parents have no experience saving marriages. They mean well, but they don't know how to save marriages. WE DO.

Inevitably they WS comes to their senses about the scumbag/scumbagget. The actual question to ask is if you will be there still when it happens. Only 5% of marriages between affair partners last more than 2 years. They almost always fail. Its built on deception and filth. It has nothing to build on. If you have the fortitude (most men don't) to last the 2 or 3 years for it to naturally fizzle out than a lot of times the WS comes back. If you are like most men though you have a limited time to recover before you are so low on love bank that you give up. Its vital that you attack hard and fast. End this affair now so you have the love left to go through the recovery process.

p.s. if you were my son I would want you to divorce her too. But even if this doesn't work out and you don't reconcile, you should run off that POS. That is the right thing to do regardless.

Ending the A is only 1 part of the war front.


This is the other.

Please do yourself the biggest favor you will ever do for yourself and get SAA.

It outlines a plan to address the issues you are facing now and in the future.


My FWW was deep in the fog as yours is. This program saved my M.


If you don't deal with all the conditions that lead to the A (YOUR behaviors that made her lose her love for you), nothing is going to save your M even if you are able to end the A. She clearly has horrible boundaries around other men. You can't control that today.

You CAN change you to be the best person possible. She fell in love with you once, she can again if you take the right steps.

I am telling you..if she isn't convinced you can fulfill her needs and stop love busting her..she isn't going to come back.

Did they suggest a better idea? Perhaps suggesting that you welcome OM into your home?

OJ, this man has committed a CRIME against you! Your parents are not versed in saving marriages and are trying to help you. That's understandable. We appreciate that. But they are not in the business of saving marriages. Dr. Harley IS. Thank them for their concern and let them know that you are receiving counselling based on one of the best marriage-building counselors there is.

God you guys are awesome. After this is all over I think I will have to frequent this board.

I will get SAA - can I buy it online and read it online?

Yes, you can. Dr Harley just recently made it available on kindle. You can get it at amazon.com.

Bleh, I don't have a kindel, was hoping I could get it in a pdf or something. Hmm.

You don't need a kindle. You can download it to your computer.

oh nvm, apparently kindel has a windows app. sweet

I am reading it now.

So I've been told through the grape vine that my wife - since she has separated from me has been neglecting our dog (she has the dog), which I find very very strange - she has always loved that dog more than anything. I've also learned that she is kicking the cats outside all night, and in the past she would never let me put them outside because she was sooo concerned they would get hurt. She would have felt responsible. Now she doesn't seem to care. Her Mom told me that she has been growing distant from her, and even forgot her birthday! (My wife has NEVER forgotten her Mom's birthday until now).

What does this shift in behavior mean? It's like she has lost all sense of empathy.

Typical WW behavior. A Wayward is all about Mememememememe. That precludes any real concern about children, pets and relatives, by definition.

Typical behavior of an addict. Be sure to let her mom know that it's the lack of action by an addict. Reassure her that you are working with a counsellor who is helping you pull her out of that swamp of addiction. Enlist her support.

What if her Mom tells my wife about the councilor and the addiction remark? Is that a bad thing?

OJ,

- she has always loved that dog more than anything.

Would a drug addict sell their dog to get a fix? She is no longer your W while she is under the influence.

Try to remember how great you felt during the first few months/years of your relationship with your WW, how nothing else mattered in the world, an affair is like that too.

God Bless
Gamma

Can you be more specific?

So I was given the suggestion to tell her mom:

I am working with a counselor who is helping me pull her out of that swamp of addiction.

What if her mom tells my wife about the the councilor and that I think she has an addiction?

Read these, they are very enlightened.

Female Wayward Fog Disassembled and Decoded
He'll be Different with you, You're Special
Craziest Things to Come out of a Wayward's Piehole

So I read through most of that book. I didn't really read anything about mass exposure. Plan B seemed to just involve a no contact rule to let the affair die naturally. Why the discrepancy?

I am reading those 3 links now BrainHurts

Yes Dr. Harley is revising SAA to add exposure. That's why you can find it all over here on the MB.

Aaahh, okay. But in the book it specifically says not to do anything to upset the WS through this whole process. That opinion has been changed? Has mass exposure - filing lawsuits etc been shown to be more effective than NC?

I've also learned that she is kicking the cats outside all night

The lesson NG takes from this: POSOM is allergic to cat dander.

The use NG would make of this: When you move back home, GET MORE CATS! Have them sleep on her clothes, brush them daily, and sprinkle the fur in her hair brush, rub it into her car's upholstery.



Dude, I guessed you are a nice guy. I am not.

Dr Harley has always recommended exposure but he just didn't include it in his books until recently. He added a part about exposure in SAA and it is in the process of being revised. He already revised His Needs, Her Needs to include a section on exposure. In the meantime, he addresses it here and several other places.

And yes, Plan B is a plan for no contact to let the affair die naturally. AFTER it has been exposed, of course.

To clarify, the purpose of Plan B is to protect the betrayed spouse from the trauma of the affair. It is a totally dark separation until the WS ends the affair and commits to recovery of the marriage.

Okay, well these lawsuits could take time... I cannot start plan B until these things are settled, ya? Also my lawyer advised me that my best chance of success with the lawsuits would be to wait until my wife serves me divorce papers, as it serves as official evidence of the alienation of my wife's affection - not that I don't have evidence, but it's what my lawyer suggested anyways.

One does not contemplate Plan B until all methods of pro-actively killing the affair have been exhausted.

Understood. For the NC letter that the book talked about, since mass exposure has now preceded the letter, should the contents of the letter be somewhat different than what the book says? Should it mention anything about the possible lawsuits, the exposure, or anything that resulted by the exposure?

No, there is no reason to change the letter.

So for those following this thread, I am going to post the "goodbye" letter my wife gave to me the day before she separated from me. I didn't post it earlier, because it's fairly long, and my original description of the situation I thought was already pretty long winded. But at this point I want to make sure you guys that are following this understand the context. When she gave me this letter, I believed it. While I may not have been meeting all of her emotional needs, I no longer believe the sincerity of this letter after learning about the affair. That same day she promised me she would remain faithful to me until we were divorced, even though she made it very clear that she was leaving for good. The next day she started having sex with the OM, before then - for the last 2 months before then - I am pretty sure the relationship was purely emotional, though I obviously can't say for sure. Keep in mind we were trying to have a baby weeks before she gave me this letter, and we JUST bought a second house. Here it is:

*First of all, I am so sorry that we have to go through all of this. I can't say that I know exactly how you feel, but I do know what it's like to feel like you are unwanted.

Before I say anything else, I just want to reiterate that I do care for you, it breaks my heart to see you cry, and to know that you are trying so hard. The last thing I wanted to do was to hurt you, but of course I knew that would be inevitable.

You keep talking about the 'seven-year itch', how you need to change to 'fix' this, and what you're going to do to try and make me happy again. Here is the bottom line - I have always had these feelings - it doesn't mean I didn't love you, or that I was never happy, you know that isn't the case - however, I need you to really understand that this is NOT new. Do you remember a couple of weeks after you came up to Alaska I told you I had considered breaking up with you? That is how far back this goes. I feel like you swooped in and rescued me from a terrible situation - you cared for me, you drove 3000 miles for me, it was hard not to love you when I married you. I had no intention of ever ending it, as I've said before, I've never acknowledged these feelings until recently. I tried to pretend that they weren't serious. I had my ups and downs, but it was always there in the back of my mind. I felt incredibly guilty for thinking the things I did. Because you are such a great guy. You are so loving, and so sweet, it makes this so much harder. You don't deserve this, and I can see from your perspective, and probably most outsiders, that there doesn't appear to be any good reason for me to leave. Again - that's why this has taken so long as it has.

I appreciate so much everything you have done or tried to do this past week, I know how much you love me. But I don't want you to change for me - I'm not going to change for you, or for anyone else. We all deserve to be loved for exactly who we are. You have done that for me, and again, I'm grateful, but you are who you are. These superficial changes don't mean anything. I fell like I've kind of just gone with the flow for my entire life, but at this point, I've decided that I need to start doing what's best for me. I deserve to be as happy as I can possibly be - I feel that there is someone out there that can make me happier. Someone that is who they are, because they have already chosen that, not for anybody else, but for themselves. Someone that has experienced life and knows what they want. I want to be very clear though - I am not leaving just to find a new husband - I want those experiences too. If I thought I was meant to be with you, I wouldn't feel this way, but I think it is so important for me to have the opportunity to get to know myself. I want to rent a [censored] little apartment, work hard, and make my own mistakes and decisions. I feel that I will regret it forever if I don't do this for myself now.

It's true that our relationship could have been better, but that doesn't mean I would not have eventually come to the same conclusion. I hope that you can see this from my point of view, as hard as it may be. Please try to understand, try to put yourself in my position.

I'm sorry that this happened now, I know that it was terrible timing. I believe we can come up with a solution that works for both of us. I hope that we can be friends, but I understand if you prefer not to.

BS - you are awesome! You can find someone that loves you like you deserve. Someone that will watch Game of Thrones with you over and over again, someone that plays all the video games you love with you. You can have fun, you can have sex, you can meet someone else - probably more than one.

I wish so bad that we could both be happy and get what we want, but that's not going to happen while we're together. You will drive yourself crazy trying to make me happy, trying to change into someone you are not, trying to figure out who I want you to be. If I don't know what I want, how can you? And meanwhile, I will wonder what could have been, I will end up bitter and resentful towards you for not letting me go. I will never be the best - happiest person I can be.

Again - I am so, so, so sorry. I can't begin to fully imagine how you must feel, and I'm going to feel terrible for the doing this to you for a long time - maybe forever.

Please try to look on the bright side - think of the possibilities, and what you could have: A wife that adores you for exactly who you are! I still love you - I still care about you, I just want you to be happy.*

That is classic wayward fogbabble. Waywards rewrite history in order to justify their affair. Despite evidence to the contrary, they claim they were never in love or that they have not been in love for years. And you might have massive evidence to the contrary.

This is a classic letter from someone who is in an affair. And I don't believe she had sexual relations AFTER she moved out. It is very rare that women leave their husbands for only an emotional affair. She was very addicted when she wrote that letter.

The letter is about as significant as the rantings of a falling down drunk. Don't let it bother you.

Thanks, you are only making me more confident in my resolve. Every time I feel like she is fitting the cliche, the more determined I get.

Can we say fogbabble??

If you read the craziest things to come out of a Wayward's piehole, you will see some common things from common dumb waywards.

OJ, when you lock up the new house to return to your former one, in addition to locks, you might want to take some other actions to make it unlikely she'll re-relocate to it.

Turn off the heat and hot water; if you can manage it, turn off the water entirely. Depending on what security measures you might have operating, you might even throw "off" some circuit breakers, and put a padlock on the distribution panel. (Empty, unplug the refrigerator.)

I'm bumping this one last time for you. The letter she wrote you and the reason your M broke down can be directly addressed in my questions above.


Not sure why you don't want to answer these questions but that is your call.


This is the path that I took to win my FWW back. This is the path that Dr Harley recommends. If you have read most of SAA, this should be clear to you now what you need to do.


Your W does not understand that anyone can fall in love with anyone if their EN's are fulfilled. She has this vision that people are meant to be together and doesn't understand the LB theory. YOU DO. Powerful stuff.


Figure out what went wrong and change your behaviors accordingly. My FWW had VALID complaints about the M pre-A. I eliminated my LB's and focused on her EN's. Guess what happened? She fell back in love with me.

It took about 6mos for my W to fall back in love with me. Again, slow down. Take your time. Take calculated steps.

Oddjob, any luck on getting ahold of the OM's parents? Hopefully you can do this today. It would be very helpful for you to speak to them and exchange information. They can be an invaluable resource.

Yes, I have been thinking about this. Over the last year or so I do not think I made her feel like she was the most important thing in my life. After 7 years of marriage I became lazy with our relationship and kind of took it for granted. She always reassured me how committed she was and that she loved me, so I became a bit lazy. Also, in the last few years she has spent more and more time hanging out with other guy friends, while I would stay home and do other things. She always seemed okay with not spending as much time with me, and that it was no big deal - again she would reassure me she loved me and everything was fine. When we DID go out, conversations had become a little stale. We would spend time looking at our phones while sitting down to eat, not talking to each other. Before she left, one of the things she told me was - "I don't even feel like we're friends. I feel like if I met you today we wouldn't even be friends".

Also physically, our sex life was never horrible, but she had mentioned lately that she wished that I would be more spontaneous, so obviously something was lacking for her.

So yes, I am aware of what I need to do to meet her EN and her PN. The issue now is, she wants NOTHING to do with me. She is with this other person now, so unless I can end the affair and *somehow* get that stubborn, prideful woman to come home (it still seems like it would take a miracle), I am not sure how I can implement these new behaviors to show her I can meet her EN.

So I found their phone number and address. I wrote a very well thought out letter to both of his parents (I am much better at saying exactly what I want to say when I can write it). At the end of the letter I told them I would love to meet and talk in person, and gave them my phone #. If I don't hear back from them by Wednesday, I am going to call them, and see if they would be willing to visit.

Here is the letter I wrote to them:

Parents of OM -
My name is BS. I am the husband of WS. Your son has chosen to pursue my wife as a sexual partner, even while knowing her marital status. I don�t know what OM has told you about the whole situation, but I wanted to write you and tell you my side of the story in the hopes that you have some influence on the choices your son has made and continues to make.
First, please know that I love WS with all of my heart. I have been with her for the last ten years of my life, and she is the whole world to me. I would take a bullet for her, I would walk through hell for her, I would do anything for her. My love for her is truly unconditional at this point, even if she doesn�t deserve it right now. When I married her, it was the happiest day of my life, because I knew I had found the person I was going to spend all eternity with. I have always considered myself a great husband. I have provided for her, have loved her, been committed to her, shared everything with her. We were genuinely happy together. I would never do anything to hurt her.

I know she has made a huge mistake by having this affair with OM. I have been talking with OM's wife, and while I�m sure I don�t know the whole story, I can�t fathom as to why OM would ever want to abandon such a sweet person. It sounds like their marriage will be coming to an end, but I am continuing to fight for my marriage in any way I know how. Sending you this letter is one way to show that I am not giving up. Should WS have a change of heart, I would be willing to spend the time and heart-ache to heal and rebuild our relationship. I know our marriage could be stronger than ever in the end if she was willing to put in the work as well. I have already forgiven her for what she has done in my heart, but forgiveness unfortunately is not always a two way street. As long as she is in this relationship with OM, she will never realize her mistake. Her judgment is clouded by infatuation. I believe OM's is as well.

It�s hard to ask favors from someone I have never met, but I please urge you to influence your son in any way that you can to end this affair. WS means the world to me, and it pains me to see her head down this path of destruction, that while temporarily it is making her feel good, in the long run I know it will cause her to be miserable.

I am a husband in pain. The most pain I have ever felt in my entire life. The pain will end one way or the other, either in someone else�s arms, or in the arms of WS, where I truly believe she belongs, and would be better off for. I truly hope for the latter, as slim as the chances may seem.

I would love to either talk on the phone or visit you in person if you would feel comfortable doing so. My phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please feel free to call with any questions, concerns, or information you think I should know. I would appreciate at least some verification that you received this letter.

Warmest regards,

BS

Is there a reason you can't just go there and speak to them? It would be much better if you could visit in person so they can see for themselves that you are a real, live, caring person. They can ask questions and exchange information with you.

And this is exactly why the main focus has to be busting up the affair. Unless the affair is killed, you won't have a CHANCE to meet her needs. Kill the affair FIRST while avoiding all lovebusters and making yourself an attractive alternative. She won't allow you to meet her needs while she is in an affair but you can present yourself as the best option.

BUT, as the affair begins to crumble from exposure, you will have a chance to present yourself as the best option.

Her letter was nothing more than fogbabble so you should not give it any meaning whatsoever. It is meaningless. What it sounds like to me is that you stopped spending time together and your wife allowed other people to meet her needs. It was her poor boundaries that led to the affair.

Here is the best summary of Plan A, IMO:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

The biggest love buster I committed was when I first learned about the affair. I called her some really bad names. I've since apologized multiple times. Other than that I think I've been pretty clean - unless you consider mass exposure a love buster .
I think the only thing that comes close to a love buster since then is I said this in a text:

"I wasn't sure why you didn't even want to try and work on our marriage, but it all makes sense now. You got bored with me, and wanted to try someone new".

Other than that though I've tried to be respectful. The only 'demands' I have made is that she end the affair.

Melody - my plan is to send the letter - move back into my old house next week, and when the drama of that is over - I will go visit the parents.

I am pretty sure when I move back into the old house, it is going to make her FURIOUS. Especially when I tell her OM is not allowed on the property. That if she is going to continue this affair, she has to do it elsewhere.

Should I insist that if she chooses to stay here that we sleep in the same room? Should I just settle into her room and let her move to another room if she wants?

edit: I guess what I am asking - is how can I move in without love-busting? How do I make her feel like I'm a good alternative to come back to while intruding into her current pattern?

When you move back in, don't lovebust. Dont' insist that you sleep in the same room, but do sleep in the master bedroom. Continue DEMANDING that she end her affair and let her know if the OM sets foot on your property, he will be escorted off the premises by an armed policeman and a restraining order filed. [and yes, you should do this]

As you continue to cause havoc, the affair will begin to crumble and you will have a chance to present yourself as an attractive alternative. The OM is a RAT and his true colors will start coming through.

Awesome. This is what I predict will happen when I move back in. She will probably see that my vehicle is there, and then she will probably drive off. She will come back later hoping I am gone, and probably drive off again. Eventually she will have to confront me, she will ask what I'm doing here - I'll tell her - and then she will probably immediately start gathering all of her stuff together, and most likely go move in with the OM. She will be very upset during all of this.

You guys are really really good people for spending time helping suffering BS's like myself. Do you guys have a tip jar? :p. When all is said in done, even if we don't reconcile, I'd want to show my appreciation for the help somehow.

You can tip us by helping others here in the future in your free time! We can always use the help!

I am sure the thought of this is upsetting, but let me tell you something. If she does move in with him, it will make the affair die FASTER. They aren't living together now for some reason, maybe it is appearances, I don't know. But if he is forced to take her in, it will cause more conflict in the affair. Reality is ruinous to an affair!

She has been adamant about being 'independent' and finding her own place, renting a room somewhere. She doesn't want to move in with a boyfriend. That I am pretty sure she is sincere about. But if she has to choose with living with me or him at this point, I bet she will choose him. Unless she is trying call my bluff or something - which I won't be bluffing.

I have to admit, moving in there is going to feel good. Making her upset is going to feel good. When she first separated from me, she told her best friend "I am the happiest girl in the world right now! I'm so happy!" Kind of hurt to hear that. Am I spiteful?

edit: And actually the thought of her moving in with him is not upsetting at all. She's already having sex with him and in love with him. My upset level can't go any higher.

ML is right as usual. I noticed that I'm my WW. She has been complaining about living with POSOM.

The reason she told you that is because she wants to make it appear that she is not leaving because of the affair but because of issues in the marriage. They ALL say they want to be independent and on their own. That is part of the charade.

Melody - do you think it's a good idea to tell her Mom that stuff I was told to tell her earlier? Is my concern about relaying the message to my wife a valid concern?

Can you be more specific?

Her Mom told me my WS was growing more distant from her, and that she forgot her birthday (my wife has NEVER forgotten her birthday). Is there something I can say to her Mom?

Why was this suggested and by whom? I don't understand the point.

I have no idea what the point would be. I agree you should enlist the support of her mother to kill the affair.

Do you know if OMBW's name is on their house?

IF she does move in with OM I would call OM's BW and let her know that your WW is shacking up in her house and she should be able to call the cops and raise havoc on their "living arrangements"

Okay, cool. Ya I have already asked for her support more than once. She is kind of a hippie, so she kind of has this "The heart knows what it wants" attitude. But she told me she has told my wife she really needs to consider her marriage at least..

That could be interesting. I would have to stalk her to find out if she is living there though. Not sure how else I would find out where she was living once she moves out of our house.

Do you have a shared phone plan? Do you have GPS on her phone?

Also if she ends up moving in with him her car would have to be there, correct?

We split up our phones into 2 separate accounts already. And ya her car would definitely be there.

So you would know that's where she's living.

Heh, I am not sure where he lives though. Hmm.. Actually I bet I could find out.

She has been adamant about being 'independent' and finding her own place, renting a room somewhere.

Talk is cheap; rent costs money!

OJ, you will learn that Waywards say much, and most of what they say is pig slop - sooner would be better than later!!! If she wanted "her own place", she'd have gotten one instead of living la vida loca on your housing dime!

Every time you listen to her, and report back here, I can almost sense some of your brain cells dying a horrible death - and mine crying out in sympathy.

Or better yet, could you put a GPS on her car now?

So while she's with this guy, basically don't believe a single word she says, ya? haha.

In other words, she doesn't give a crap about her daughter.

He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But he who walks wisely will be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

Ya, I could. Wonder if I can find a tracker locally.

NG is correct. It is the same as posting the rantings of a falling down drunk...

They have good ones at Radio shack.

Here GPS Units

Cool, I will pick one up. Once she decides to leave the old house, it will be interesting to see where she goes.

Yes it will.

Wise words from Pepperband to a newly BS (especially after exposure) put a GPS on their vehicle and see where they go and a VAR (they can't help but to call the AP).

Eh, sorry I'm not sure what you mean by VAR, or AP. Still learning my acronyms I guess.

AP=Affair Partner
VAR=Voice Activated Recorder

Here.
Acroynoms and Abbreviations

VAR

I just talked to one of my very best friends on the phone, and he said he is going to call my wife and tell her he thinks she's making a huge mistake and that she needs to end the affair. I warned him she might start trying to say "you don't know the whole story", "That's not why I left him" bla bla bla. I told him to just stay true to his resolve no matter what she says. So far he is the only friend that has been willing to straight up just tell her that. Really grateful for him right now.

What a good man and friend.

So one more piece of the puzzle guys that I didn't mention, and it's kind of a big piece. My wife's best friend is a guy. She even told him about the impending separation before she told me about it. They are very close. When my wife separated from me, on that very same day, this guy went and confessed his love to my wife. Before this happened I considered this guy my friend as well. Not anymore, for obvious reasons. He has tried to reconcile with me saying I wasn't there, and I don't know exactly what happened, blah blah. He has always been very manipulative. He knows how to make people feel sorry for him. He is *always* the victim in his eyes. My wife does not have any feelings of love for him as far as I know, and she turned him down but decided to remain friends with him. Well, regardless of his betrayal of my friendship, I asked for his support to not see or talk to my wife until she ends this affair. Of course he said "She's an adult, I'm not going to tell her what to do, and I'm not going to end our friendship because of it." So they still spend time together. They had a BBQ the other day with him, his girlfriend, my wife, and my wife's OM. (I don't know if the OM knows that this guy confessed his love to my wife). Either way, the whole situation is extremely dysfunctional.

My concern is this - obviously I can never be friends with this guy again. But he is my wife's best friend, and I know she cherishes their friendship, no matter how big of a douche he is. So let's say the affair ends in the future, and the fog clears. How do I deal with this guy? Do I tell my wife she cannot be friends with him anymore? Do I put a probation on her friendship with him? Do I say she can still be friends with him, but cannot be near him unless I am there physically? I am worried that she will not be willing to abandon her friendship with him if that's what it takes to reconcile. (If I can even get to that point to begin with)

Sorry if this didn't make sense. I can reword some of it if needed.

Tell him to hit the road and demand that she never have anything to do with him again. A married person should not have friends of the opposite sex. That is how affairs begin.

Does this so called best friend's GF know he confessed his love to your WW? I would let her know.

I would make it a condition for recovery. No opposite sex friendships. You should tell him to get lost.

Here.
Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marraige?

Odd,

I have read through your thread and you are doing an excellent job of managing this very difficult situation. You are listening to the advice here and that is helping you.

Most people don't understand affairs and how to battle them. Dr. Harely and these folks here do. Thousands of marriages have been saved though these methods, and in the marriages that were not saved the betrayed spouses learned from the Marriage Builders principals and became much better for it. So keep a courageous heart.

To answer your question, one of the conditions of taking back your WW will be for her to end all opposite sex friendships. She cannot re-enter your marriage if she stays friends with the guy. And she should not have a close friendship with any other guy but you.

Your WW does not have boundries. If she was going out when you were married and she was in the presence of other men, then it is clear her boundries were bad. This must be corrected for you two to recover.

But first things first. Destroy the affair.

Okay, good to know, no guy relationships. I will make that a solid rule should we ever have the opportunity for reconciliation. And yes, the 'friend's' GF knows about his love confession to her. Like I said, it's an EXTREMELY dysfunctional situation. The reason his GF doesn't care about the love confession is because she is desperate to keep him as her boyfriend, as far as I can tell.

Man, her lifestyle has been to have guy friends as long as I can remember. I just have such a hard time seeing her not only coming back to want to reconcile, but abandoning her friendship with this guy right now just seems impossible. He has been her friend for as long as I have been with her.

Which leads me to another question. When / If the fog lifts - what in the world is going to make her consider coming back to me? Even if she DID want to, I feel like she will be too embarrassed and prideful to even consider it. And then for me to tell her she has to abandon her relationship with this guy, I feel she would not ever be willing to consider that.

I'm going to continue to follow the plan you guys have laid out, I won't give up on the love of my life, but I have to admit, I have such a hard time seeing her ever wanting to reconcile - even as great as our relationship was for so long.

Odd,

She is in the fog, and it is going to take time (a process) for her to get out.

But when she does get out, she has to change her independent behavior and she has to end relationships with the opposite sex. Both of these are destructive to happy marriage, and you should only take her back if you are going to be safe. There is no point in saving a marriage if it isn't going to be happy.

At this point, she cannot be educated. But if the affair is killed, the fog will eventually lift. At this point she must be willing to accept your conditions for accepting her back. In addition to giving up independent behavior and opposite sex friendships, she must at that time read Dr. Harley's books and this site.

If she is not willing to do this, then she will do this again. Is this something you want to put yourself through again?

No, I am not willing to go through this again. I will definitely tell her when the time comes that these conditions are necessary for our marriage's survival. If she refuses, then so be it.

What I am curious about though is the mental thought process that she will go through when/if the fog does lift. What will actually make her want to contact me? What will her state of mind be? I just have a hard time envisioning the reality of that moment. In the book, with the example with Sue, it made sense because she still felt what she was doing was wrong, she missed her kids, and it seemed she never felt fully confident about her decision to leave her husband. In my case my wife seems extremely confident and determined to see this through. So my instinct tells me that even if this affair does end, she will just go find another partner, rather than considering coming back to me.

I guess I am just trying to understand the psychology of this, and what my real chances are I guess.

What will make her want to contact you is if she sees you as the super cool, non-needy rock that will help her regain her life and honor.

You are the only person on this plant that she can do that with.

Right not she doesn't think she can/could ever fall in love with you again. We here know she could not be more wrong.

Being calm and totally collected is very attractive. Start working out. Look great. Improve yourself. Woo her without being needy. Invite her to fun events. If she says no..say cool, maybe next time. If she says yes...show her an amazing time out.

Trying to understand SAA and LB will explain everything.

Worrying about her right now will do nothing more than cause you pain. You have to focus on yourself while you do whatever you can to break them up.

You can only control you. Start there first.

Putting a GPS on her car and a VAR could be helpful at the same time it could cause you enormous stress tracking her all the time. I chose to hold off on that until we started to R. Knowing TOO much can work against you.

If and when she is ready to talk and end it with him...you will know 100%.

I assume you mean invite her to stuff AFTER the affair is over, ya?

Invite her now. Try to woo her now. If she says no, then cool.

Dude..you have to fight for her right now. Try to date her. Ask her out. Do what you can to spend as much time with her as possible.

Be Mr. Cool while you do it. Laid back. Tell her you realize how you messed up..how serious you are about creating a great life together. Over time, she may buy into it.

Here's a good read.

This poster's WW had three affairs and kept going back to one of her OM. Posters were actually telling him to give up because they had no children and they hadn't been married long and they were young. He actually had to go into Plan B for a short time.

He had a few bumps, but mostly followed the plans.

He asked alot of the same questions.

They are now recovered.

Hope it helps.
jah's Thread

I am confused. If I invite her out and show her a good time, aren't I just enabling her affair? I mean that would be incredibly awkward to just be nice to her on a date while she is cheating on me.

I mean if one minute I'm demanding she ends the affair, and the next I'm asking her out on a date, that just seems strange to me.

Thanks BH, I will read it.

You are in Plan A.

Have you seen this?
Carrot and Stick of Plan A

You need both the Carrot and Stick.

Ya, I'm familiar with plan A. Hmm... So you guys think it would be a good idea to call and ask her to go out with me tonight? I know she will say no - but the gesture itself would help you think?

So, demanding she end the A and doing nothing to try rebuild your friendship with her makes more sense?

I would. Absolutely.

Try to get her to go out with you and have a great time together. Have fun. Don't talk about the A at all. She clearly knows you don't approve of it.

Show her your heart is open to her. Get her to fall back in love with you. This is the key my friend.

I picture the conversation going like this

Me: Hey WWS, just wondering if you'd like to go to the aquarium with me tonight.

Her: Umm, no, I don't think so.

Me: Alright, cool, maybe next time. Have a good night.

*click*.

This would only help my situation?

Should I avoid saying "I love you"? Like as a way to say goodbye on the phone or whatever.

What do you have to lose? Who cares if she says no. Ask her out again next week. You HAVE to spend time with her to get any traction.

Dude...I was exactly where you were 3 years ago. Now my FWW is more in love with me than she has ever been in her entire life.

Stop trying to predict her reactions. Just do your thang!

You are overthinking things..bud... Just be cool ! I wouldn't say I love you right now. Don't talk about the relationship AT ALL>

Look..didn't she say in her letter to you that you were easy to love? Do what you did then.

Don't be a doormat..be STRONG and completely together at the same time.

ENGAGE her..make her laugh. Try to lighten up the tension between you.

Guys, that was just emotionally taxing on me... Uggghh... I called her. I asked her out. She said "ummm, no I'm busy". Then she proceeded to ask me about my IRA account info for filling out divorce papers. I said I would look for the account number for her. then I told her to have a good night and hung up....

I'm freaking shaking.

Should I refuse to give her that info?

Plan A:

Me: Hey WWS, just wondering if you'd like to go to the aquarium with me tonight.

Her: Umm, no, I don't think so.

Me: I am looking forward to seeing the new octopus exhibit. I'll let you know how it is after I see it. If you change your mind, let me know. It would be nice to see it with you."

*click*.

Then.........go yourself and enjoy it.

She seemed so un-phased by me asking her out. As soon as she said no she jumped to the IRA thing. I hope it surprised her more than I think it did. She probably just thinks I'm desperate.

Also, I assume I should refuse to sign divorce papers?

Expect this reaction. TRY not to let it effect you. Just say, no problem, maybe next time.

Look. NO PRESSURE. She is sensitive to the slightest pressure.

None. Zilch. Zero.

"hey, I'm heading out tonight to do ___, thought you might like to join me. Either way is cool. No pressure."


Just keep asking her out to do fun things together.

Do all the A busting behind the scenes. When you talk to her try to keep the conversations light.

Gotta run.

Your only response should be 'I don't talk divorce, I only talk M'.

Coming across desperate will work against you.

Should I text her and say I am not volunteering that information to you, I won't talk about divorce, only marriage?

I definitely didn't come across desperate on the phone. I was very cool about it. But just the gesture of asking her out I wonder if she took it as desperate is all.

Man, her voice was soooo cold to me. Like she was talking sweet and normal, but behind it I could just tell it was so fake. It was almost mocking how she was talking to me, as if NOTHING is wrong at all.

Also do not help her with anything that pertains to the D?

IRA account number? I don't have access to that information. Or I don't talk D only marriage. My lawyer talks divorce.

Do not make it easy for her.

I wouldn't say or do anything about the D unless she brings it up. You are much to busy right now. You have places to go and people to see. Must have slipped your mind.

If/when she brings it up try to change the subject or just say "hey, I really don't want to talk about that right now'. Change the subject.

If she thinks your are sitting there pining the time waiting for her=desperate and very unattractive.

All your interactions with her have to be Positive. period.

No way I would text her proactively anything about the D, papers...etc.

Expect her to be cold as ice. You have to try to break through that with your charm and appeal !

This is totally a disrespectful judgment.

Spending time reading SAA and LB will help you see what you need to avoid right now in your interactions.

How about taking a break from this? Do you have some friends you can hook up with and try to get your mind off of this right now?

It took a LONG time for her to fall out of love with you. It is going to take time for her to fall out of love with the POSOM and back in L with you.

Patience. Patience. This is going to take a long time. Trust me.

No, you are not enabling her. You are competing for her. You are showing her that you are a better alternative than the POSOM. You are wooing her back.

I hear ya.. I'm breaking the rules. So not only do I have to not judge her to her face, but not even in my own head.

So she is probably going to say no every single time I ask her out. Is there any other approaches I can take rather than just cold calling her? Or do I just keep trying until she tells me to never call her again? haha.

Just tell her you aren't going to get into any of that. Tell her you will talk about the marriage but if there is anything to do with a divorce, you would rather leave that to an attorney. Don't help her in any way when it comes to a divorce.

Well that won't be a problem next week when you move in with her!

Heh, ya for a minute. It is going to piss her off so bad. She'll storm out with all of her stuff, and then two days later I will call her up - "Hey, wanna go to that raw vegan restaurant you always wanted to try?" She will know full well that I know she is pissed, and yet still trying to ask her out. This is still how I should approach this? haha

Just do this occasionally so she knows that offer stands. And whenever she contacts you for anything, be as pleasant and kind as possible. No lectures and no lovebusting. As the affair crumbles, she will contact you more and more.

Interesting.. Makes sense though. This approach is so different from anything else I've ever read since this started happening. I've read other places that if you make yourself completely unavailable, then that is when they will want you back.

I am having a house warming party next weekend. I will invite her to that next week. It will show her that I have a life, and am active.

That doesn't work and I will explain why. If a spouse is so completely detached that they leave for an affair, then how will more detachment be the solution? Making yourself unavailable is a dream come true for the affair because they want you out of the way. But if you react with the carrot and the stick, you effectively kill the affair and make yourself the attractive alternative.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so once you expose it, the affair begins to crumble and lose its magic glow. If you stay and compete you are the most likely winner.

Odd,

Remember, you have to remake yourself into a superior alternative for her. That means doing the things that meet her emotional needs and avoiding the love busters that drove her away. Be confident, have a sense of humor, and be sincerely charming, caring, and loving. Like you're preparing for an academy award.

But don't talk about the relationship, don't try and educate, and leave the situation when you feel anger or hurt coming on. (I know, that means you will always be away. But you know what I mean.)

Asking her out is ok, just don't be clingy. You've said to MIL that you have unconditional love for her. I think that is a dangerous thing to say. It enables cake eating.

When she sees you in the house on Monday and she reacts. Play it cool. I'm hear because this our home. We are married. Not much else to say. Don't engage in a fight. Keep it simple and change the subject.

What's her favorite dish? Cook it. Ask her if she would like a massage. Feet, body. Those are good conversation changers. If she rejects with fogbabble tell her you sorry she feels that way. Do not engage with an argument.

Great advise guys. I'm really worried about the affair not ending, at least not for a long time. It seems in my situation exposure hasn't been too effective so far. I mean it pissed her off, she thinks I 'lied' to everyone, but that's about it. The OM doesn't seem to care at all about his divorce or leaving the church from what I gather.

I'm still a little iffy on whether or not I want to pursue lawsuits against the OM or the company they work for. I'm really afraid to pull the trigger on that one.

And why is this?

Well the first is financial reasons (cost of lawyer). But the other reason is from reading SAA. It seems the safer way is to let the affair die a natural death. It's just a huge commitment to file a lawsuit against a company or somebody. I mean I'm willing to do anything to save my marriage, but I catch myself wondering if the exposure I've done already plus moving back into the old house is already enough. I mean if the OM was willing to divorce his wife for my WS, and get ex-communicated from his church, would a lawsuit really do any good? He must really really like her, as big of a douche as he is.

I can understand about the cost, but you are seriously misinterpreting SAA if you have walked away with the notion that "dying a natural death" means doing nothing about the affair. It is quite the opposite. Dr Harley recommends causing as much havoc as possible in the affair. He has come out in favor of laws against adultery and advocates using any legal means possible against an affair.

Dr Harley says that many affairs end up dying a natural death. That is NOT NOT NOT the same as advocating complacence.

The advice we are giving you here is straight from the horse's mouth. We are NOT giving you any advice that would conflict with Dr Harleys advice. If you believe anyone is doing that, please click on "notify" so the moderators can remove that person from the forum and delete their post, ME INCLUDED. It is against the TOS to post non MB material here.

Dr Harley believes it should be illegal to have an affair. And he believes that people who have affairs with the spouse of deployed soldier should be imprisoned for 3 years!

Wow. I think when I look deep into my reasoning, it's ultimately because I'm afraid of my wife's wrath - but she's leaving me anyways, so why should I care? Ya, I need to do it, if I can afford it.

The more trouble you can cause in the affair the more likely it will be killed. See, OM are cowards and punks who don't want a fight. They just want an easy lay. They are not men of character, principle or stamina, so when trouble comes, they typically RUN. And when they do that, the affair is wrecked and your WW sees the OM for what he is. THAT allows you to step in and look like the knight in shining armor. Doesn't always come down like that, but you have a much greater chance of saving your marriage if you can unleash holy hell on the OM.

I am glad you realize this. You are a smart guy. Your marriage can survive her wrath, but it can't survive an ongoing affair.

Whoa, she just sent me a big text. What do you guys think of this...

"Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, I just haven't had a chance to sit down and write this. I understand why you are trying to blame this on the 'affair', I know it must be hard to accept this situation. Let me explain again, hopefully for the last time. The truth, whether or not you choose to believe it, is that OM had nothing to do with my leaving, I've been thinking about it literally for years. The absolute truth is that if he ended it with me today, I would not go running back to you. I wasn't the best person I could be with you, and I believe there is just a better fit out there for me. I believe there is a better fit for you, as well, someone who will love you for exactly who you are. That person is not me.

Don't tell me 'now it all makes sense.' I don't want to work on our marriage, because it's not about any problems we may have had, it's just about us as people. We were not meant to be husband and wife.

I'm sorry that I hurt you, I tried to tell you I was done, but you didn't want to hear it. It really sucks how this all went down, I did not plan it, cheating on you was never my intention. But BS, nothing has changed. I am filling out the paperwork, and hope to get it to you as quickly as possible. The best thing for us now is to finish the divorce and move on.

I can't blame you for reaching out to our friends, but you should know me well enough to be confident that no one can tell me what's best for me. I have to make my own decisions, (or mistakes, in your opinion), unfortunately, sometimes despite other people's feelings.

If you truly want me to be happy, you will let me move on, and you will do the same."

HOW SHOULD I REPLY?????

I was thinking I would say something like - "who said anything about you running back to me? I just want to take you out, have some fun, and just talk. I understand how hard it would be for you to leave OM, you love him! But it is the right decision, and you need to make it".

Bad? I'm such a noob.. Never gone through anything like this before.

I was thinking I should also say - "You may have been thinking about it for years, but you never mentioned any problems. And you couldn't have been thinking about it for too long, because it wasn't that long ago you were begging me to have a baby with you. Obviously I was not meeting some of your emotional needs, and I apologize for that, but I know I can be the husband, friend, and person you need to meet those needs."

Something like that? frak I dunno..

"WW, thanks for sending your thoughts. I am very worried about your future with this man. I am sure you know his family will never accept your affair and is dead set against it. Just know I do love you and will be here for you if you need me. love," OddJob123

Scrap all the other stuff I wanted to say?

yep! Don't walk into the tarpit by arguing with fogbabble. Just reframe the issue on your terms. you want to say something to SCARE her about her future with the OM. In a loving way, of course!

So basically don't legitimize anything she is saying because it is fog talk?

okay cool

And read the first post on this link....

you will recognize something posted on it about 6 or 7 phrases down on the post.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659680#Post1659680


par for the course.......

You got it! And there is no point in arguing with a falling down drunk. All the stuff she is saying is her fogged out, drunken perspective. And you would never argue with a falling down drunk, would you?

wow..

Okay, she replied to that text Melody. she said:

"And why would you assume that? You don't know anything about him or his family. I'm not going to tell you not to worry about me, because I know you will anyway, but again, I'm making my own decisions, and I'm going to be fine."

Should I respond? If so, how?

Paging Ms Hurts, Ms BrainHurts:

I'm of the opinion that this thread could use a reference to the "Schmoopies" site.

I want to say - "Um, because his Dad is a bishop in the Mormon church, and he would never support a relationship born out of infidelity, especially infidelity that dishonored a temple marriage". I know I probably should not say that though...

don't argue, don't argue, don't argue....

Here you go.
Soul Mate Shmoopies

"Yes, I do worry because I know how Mr and Mrs OMParents feel about your affair and the future of your relationship in their family. This concerns me greatly."

Hmm, but I haven't truly talked to them yet. Should I say it anyways?

The OM's wife told you they did not approve.

Aye, though that was second hand. But I suppose that's enough.

You don't have to say HOW you know. Just that you know. Lead her to believe you are in touch with them without actually saying it. Be vague but knowing.

See, the reason I wanted you to visit with his parents is so you could get intel from them AND so you could make sure they know all about the affair. Getting their feelings about the affair would be a potent weapon to use against the affair because your W will have second thoughts about the affair if she knows she can never darken their doorstep. See how you can use things like this to cast doubt on the affair?

Yes, I do. I sent the text anyways. Kind of a risk, but oh well.

What is the risk?

When the information is second hand, there is always a potential for it to be wrong.

That is true. Hopefully you have been getting the truth from the OMW. And hopefully you can clear up any miscommunications when you actually speak to these people.

Okay she's mad again... Here is the text:

"Oh okay, so you're talking to his parents now too? Or still just getting all of your facts from OM's wife? I don't care if you chat with her, it's weird as hell, but don't come to me with all of your intel and concerns, I don't need it."

Is this when I say: "I'm sorry you're upset." ?

"just know that I do care about you so naturally I am concerned about his family's bad reaction. I don't want you to be blindsided. Hopefully, OM is telling you about the difficulties. "

Sent, oh man she is going to be furious.

This is good stuff.. I love you guys. thanks so much. I am way to emotional perturbed right now to think of this stuff on my own.

I can almost feel her grabbing for the crack pipe as I pull it further away.

That is the beauty of having folks who are not emotionally invested help you... We can be objective and strategic about your situation because our emotions are not clouding our thinking.

Do you see how you are kindly, and sweetly, throwing some stink bombs into Affair Land?

And do you see how you effectively changed the subject from her fogbabble to the STARK PROBLEMS IN AFFAIRVILLE?

Yes, I do!! Even if I don't end up reconciling with her, I can see how going through this process is going to teach me so so much. And I'm getting excited to become a regular here to help others as well once this is over. It will be nice if one day I can put my recovery status in my signature, as far away and as hopeless as that seems at the moment.

I like posting to you young kids. You post really fast!!

She hasn't responded yet, so she is either typing a novel, or she is too pissed to respond.

Or she is screaming at OM!!

When will you be able to talk to OM's parents?

OJ, do you see how OUTRAGED she is at the prospect you would speak to his parents about the affair? Now do you understand how effective this would be in causing problems in their affair? Your wife is going CRAZY over this issue and that is GOOD GOOD GOOD!!

This is because if she will not be accepted into his family, it greatly complicates the future of the affair. This really bothers WW's because they fantasize about being integrated into the OM's family. That has been ruined here!!

You have hit a very soft target with the parent issue.

She still hasn't responded to me. Ya, she is pissed, and probably talking to OM.

And the best part is is I never said I talked to his parents. So I never lied or anything.

<-------------> OM

All hell done broke loose in Affairville!

yep!

I can't go over to their house until Wednesday, but I may try calling them tomorrow evening after their church is over. I have their house phone number.

Great idea! The sooner the better. You don't want them to get to the parents FIRST and spin some story about some crazed ex husband.

Can you call them tonight?

With them going to church tomorrow, their son's sins will weigh heavy on their hearts.

Her story will go like this:

"my husband and I have separated because of his abuse and I have filed for divorce. We are just waiting for the divorce to be final. He is furious that I have left this abusive, terrifying marriage and is calling up all my friends and family trying to get them to make me come back!"

So when you do call them, they will be forewarned and will hang up on you beucase they won't believe you.

See, almost all wayward WIVES portray their husbands as "abusive", ie: satan incarnate because they need to portray themselves as victims.

I just called, talked to OM's sister. She took my # and the mother is going to call me when she gets home if she isn't too tired. If I don't hear from her tonight, I will try calling tomorrow after church.

I would be absolutely SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED if my wife told anyone i was abusive. That would be the up-most definite proof that she is gone absolutely crazy.

you notice how she went from saying she "had been thinking about it for a long time" to "I didn't plan this"
Fog

It is a CLASSIC tactic of wayward wives. And it is almost NEVER TRUE. They need to demonize their husbands in order to justify their affair. Most betrayed husbands are SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED to find out they have been portrayed as "abusers!"

At this point I guess I wouldn't put anything past her.

Good.

How old is OM's sister? Does she know of the affair?

I have no idea, she sounded very young - like a teenager.

What about the father? Was he home? He's the bishop. I would talk to him.

No he wasn't home. I figured the Mom would probably be super sympathetic to me if I was balling over the phone to her, and then she would relay the message to the husband.

Don't cry on the phone to her!! Just tell her about the affair, ask if she knows what is going on and ask her if she will persuade her son to leave your wife alone. Be very straightforward and calm.

I think they will both be very sympathetic to you. They will be very disappointed with their son.

You need to keep your composure. Do not cry.

I will try not to cry.. We'll see what happens.

Just tell her about the affair and ask her if they will support you and your marriage by putting pressure on her son.

Did you get a chance to watch the soul mate shmoopie video? I think you need some laughter.

I just talked to the Dad for 20 minutes. They are doing EVERYTHING they can to convince the OM to end the relationship. They are very supportive of me.

So very proud of you!! Good job, my friend!!

So ya.. Pressure on his family's side to end the relationship. I also found out that the OM is indeed living with his parents right now, but is about to move out into his own apartment. (his parents are trying to convince him to stay at home).

I am moving into the old house on Tuesday - which is the perfect storm for my WWS to move into the apartment with him. This is a good thing, right?

Oh boy, that is awesome!! The OM will get an earful about his affair tonight.


you got it! And they will be isolated because his parents won't let him bring his adultery partner around. He will be ostracized by his family. And when that happens, the bar will RAISE. He will expect MORE from her to repay for his sacrifices. But once they start living together the fantasy will die fast and when that happens the affair will crumble. Without fantasy, there is nothing to hold the relationship together because it is based on thoughtlessness, selfishness and deceit. Adulterers have horrible, horrible fights when they shack up because they are renters.

X2.

You're doing so well.

Baby steps.. Monday I will change the locks, and I actually might just move in Monday too as long as the OM isn't there. Why wait? Tuesday I will call the lawyer and let them know that the business they work for has not gotten back to me, and I want to at least have the lawyer call and talk to them / threaten lawsuit. As soon as my wife gives me divorce papers, I will have the lawyer call the OM and threaten lawsuit.

I agree! If the OM is there, escort him right to the door and if he resists, call the police and have him removed.


About the divorce papers, I would not sign or do anything with them. Make her hire an attorney and have you served. Just refuse to cooperate all the way down the line.

He probably won't get an earful tonight, as I'm pretty sure he's over at my old house right now with my wife. I'm guessing he won't go back to his parents until tomorrow night.

Oh MY. That piece of crap is shacking up in your house?

I'm just realizing the continued pain and suffering I am putting myself through to have the slimmest chance of saving my marriage. I would like to think it is a testament of how much I love her. I could end my pain so much faster if I just went NC and forgot about her and tried to find someone else. But I feel like I would be betraying my marriage vows if I did that.

Yes, he is - that is why I am moving back in on Monday.

There are no guarantees but my money is on you. Let me explain why. 95% of affairs die within 2 years and never make it to marriage. The 5% that make it to marriage have a 70% divorce rate. The very traits that make an affair possible eventually destroy it.

On the other hand, 65% of marriages that are afflicted by affairs end up reconciled. So my money is on you!

But even if you did decide to get divorced, you would be fully within your rights. You are not betraying your marriage vows if you divorce over adultery.

I'm glad to see you are optimistic after all the stuff I've shown you that she has told me. I'm sure it's MUCH easier for you guys to brush it off as foggage since you guys have seen it so much and you are not emotionally attached to this like I am. But when I see her say things like "We weren't meant to be together", "I am never coming back", "Let me go", "I don't love you anymore" it REALLY affects me.

Oh and when you say shacking up, do you mean living there? Because he's not living there, he might spend the night sometimes, but he spends most of his nights at his parents house right now.

Why not go to Home Depot first thing in the morning and change your locks? Then drive over to your other house and call the police if you see the OM's car there and have him removed? He has ALOT OF NERVE going in your home.

That's because we have seen it a million times. They all say that.

I actually have lock smith's coming out on Monday. I am not a handy man, and don't want to screw it up, hah. It's been over a month of this going on now, so I don't think one more day is going to make a difference.

Oh, and when she said "If OM left me tomorrow, I wouldn't come running back to you". That kind of stung too.

She is saying that because she wants you and others to believe she left because of problems in the marriage, NOT because of the OM.

Ya, I understand, like I said, it is just really hard to look at what she says as foggage. It is hard to have an objective view because I am so emotionally involved.

When my wife started calling me toxic [I was snooping on her], is when she "jumped the shark" into the absurd and I finally detached from taking anything she said to heart. Her snide and hurtful comments back then were about maintaining her addiction...nothing more.

She might as well be saying "I could quit crack cocaine tomorrow and still not come home to you, you horrible ugly smelly monster". Perhaps a good response would have been "prove it" with a wry smile.

Until the affair is busted up, everything she says or does will be in furtherance of her affair. Even acts and words of kindness, if any, are just attempts at manipulation.


Just detach from it. Self confidence is a tough thing to possess right now but can't look to your wife for any assurances. Besides, you're only 28 [or so] so if this works out, great...if not, you'll be ok. I didn't even get married until I was 30. You'll truly be fine with or without her. Trying to save HER is an noble endeavor. Hopefully this is a one time act of immaturity and you two can recover and rebuild a fulfilling MB marriage. We are pulling for you.


Godspeed,

Mr. W

Plus...OM's love it when you step aside and hate when they hear you are asking "their" girl out on dates and spending ANY time with "their" girl.

Remember...they KNOW "their" girl is a liar that shouldn't be trusted so OM's will presume the worst about any time you spend around each other.


Remember also...WW's love sharing things you tell them with the OM so don't be afraid to feed her misinformation. (like I told my wife an exaggerated amount of money she personally spent the year prior on clothing alone knowing OM would internally freak out knowing he could never afford to cloth my wife).

Remember lastly...busting up the affair is step one and getting OM to end it because it's just too much trouble is one great way (and the easiest way) to accomplish that.


May not sound ideal or romantic but it matters not one bit how these affairs end...only that it ends and you can rebuild from there.

Mr. W


p.s. - another thought...when you move back home be very careful not to do anything that would allow her to successfully call the cops and have you removed. One BH blocked his wife in a room demanding she get off the phone with OM in his house and she accused him of "false imprisonment". Even though he didn't even touch her...she got him removed. Having a recorder of some type (I like the MP3 recordable wristwatches) would be wise to protect you from trumped up charges of harassment or abuse.

I generally think most WW's don't give a crap about being integrated into any family. They disassociated from their own so why would they care about OM's? They don't. If it were up to them they put aluminum foil in all the windows and stay in bed with OM 24/7. He's their schmoopie, not his parents.

Thus, the real reason this "bothers" WW's is because they THINK it might or probably does bothers their OM. They wonder and get insecure about whether OM will really choose them over their mom and dad and then they both have to spend a lot of time discussing and reassuring each other about this REAL LIFE problem with their relationship versus just living in affair fantasy land.

W

I just talked to the Dad for 20 minutes. They are doing EVERYTHING they can to convince the OM to end the relationship. They are very supportive of me.

This is great news, my friend. DO NOT LET UP YOUR CALM, BUT DIRECTED, ACTIONS IN ALL PHASES!

Review, please: This week is move-home date, right? Have you isolated all financial assets from her access? Are you unfailingly equipped with a VAR when you (will be) in proximity to WW?

You are getting THE BEST when Mel counsels you, but more importantly, you are listening, and HEARING, what should be done, and doing it.

Drive this affair into the ground.

All financial assets are isolated yes - I even had her sign over the house titles to me.

I am going to move in on either Monday or Tuesday. Probably Monday. Whenever me and WWS are about to have a conversation I will start video recording on my phone and then just put it in my pocket.

Any tips on what I should say to my Wife when I move back in other than - "I'm moving back in because this is my house too, and I am not supporting your affair. OM is no longer allowed on the property."

That is what I'll say on the stick side - what about the carrot side? What would be most effective?

My wife has a big acne and complexion problem. She looks great with make-up, but without make up is a whole different story. I assume this bodes well for when they move in together, and he has to start seeing her without make-up? I mean... In a facebook message to one of his buddies when this whole thing started he said "I don't know man, she' SO hot, I think she's worth ruining my marriage over". Do you think seeing her without make-up, something that little could cause the fantasy to die for him a bit?

"Hello honey, I'm home!!"

Do not get into any discussion or argument when you do.

OJ, here's a little video for you to think about when she starts babbling her nonsense. Picture her as the teacher:

Charlie Brown's Teacher

Heh, ya.. blablablablabla..

Seriously though, I feel like I am not going to have many opportunities to be near her between when I move in and when she moves out, so I want to know if there are any specific things I can say to her other than offering to go out and do stuff to make her feel like I am a good option, that she could eventually feel comfortable coming back to me. The carrot of plan A basically.

And then...just LISTEN. [if she doesn't talk...no biggie]

Ask questions...and LISTEN some more.

Talk less...Listen more.

Ignore any hurtful things she's saying as she's just trashing against you for interfering with her affair.

Your challenge is to see how long you can keep her talking with you about anything. The more she talks to you the more connected to you she will feel regardless of the conversation.

Acknowledge her statements... ["I understand"..."That's interesting"] and then deflect to another topic with questions when it gets too upsetting [she's gonna try to upset you].

Just try not to laugh out loud when she responds exactly how we tell you she's going to.

When she disengages to leave...don't chase her and don't beg. Be confident because trust me...you are the far better man and choice and she is either going to regret what she has done and be so appreciative of you fighting for her or she won't and you'll know you are better off without her. Either way...YOU will make it.


Mr. w

More than that, though, is no woman wants to be viewed as a PARIAH in any man's family. It is a horrible thing for a woman to be told she is not good enough to "darken the doorstep" of her partner's mother. She knows that if she is viewed as a pariah, it will eventually come between them.

They care very much about being integrated into his family and this is why exposing to the OM's family is so potent.

Thanks, that is what I needed to hear. I am going to re-read that like 10 times so it's ingrained in my head.

If she gives me the silent treatment after I move in, should I respect that? Or should I try to engage in conversation? "WS, do you want to talk about anything? If not, I understand."

oh, and another tid-bit of information that makes last night's conversation with my wife ever so sweeter, is that the OM's dad told me him and has wife have NEVER talked to my WS. So everything my WS knows about his family is through the OM. Which means my message probably did more damage than we originally even thought.

I was thinking the same thing. OM evidently has a good relationship with his parents since he's living with them. I suspect their feelings will be important to him.

Right now, part of your WW's fantasy is probably visualizing warm, cozy holidays and Sundays around the family table. It will be a helpful dash of reality if she has to face the fact that those cozy days won't be happening. She will know that they know the truth of her marriage and she will not be able to spin her history to be acceptable to them.

And as a parent of boys, I can promise you that a woman who wrecked her marriage would not be popular with me. I wouldn't want my son having a relationship with someone like that. Beyond the fact that their character is clearly suspect - if they did it to their husband, what's to stop them from doing it to my son?

I'm going to write down a list of non-relationship questions I can ask her about here for my reference later.

-So are you planning on going to School?
-How is work going? Did you ever get another raise?
-How was your birthday? Did you do anything fun?
-Have you been keeping up with Game of Thrones?
-(if she is going to school) What are you thinking about studying?
-Do you think you'll ever do massage again?

Hmm.. That's all the non-awkward questions I can think of right now.

My friend, don't overthink this. You don't want to come across as false. There is nothing you can say to make it any less awkward. Just don't allow her to bait you into a fight. Be pleasant and go about your business.

Okay, I hear you. That makes sense.

Ask her things like
Would you like some coffee?

You do realize that by speaking to his family yourself, you have prevented your WW from concocting a "story" about you? You got to them first and told them the truth. So now if she and the OM try to drum up a story, it won't work.

Does your WW believe you are going to cooperate with her divorce? Didn't she print up divorce papers off the internet? Lets discuss that...

Same here. If my son did something so trashy, he would not be allowed to bring his hoe to my home. She would never darken my doorstep!

She thinks I am going to cooperate, yes.

Oooh, okay this is good. So like if I'm going to the store, ask her if she wants anything, etc? This is good.

So when she rolls out the divorce papers, just let her know you would prefer to let attorneys handle all that because of the seriousness of the situation. You have since learned that the divorce will be a very serious thing because of the adultery involved. Because of that, you will be countersuing for divorce on grounds of adultery if she has you served.

This means that the OM will be subpoenaed to give testimony under oath about his adultery. All of their emails, texts and cell phone records will be subpoenaed in discovery. This is also information that the OM's wife can use in her own divorce action. You are considering asking the OM's parents and his wife to testify on your behalf since they have all been so supportive of you.

The reason you want to do this is to buy time. You want to drag it out and make it as difficult as possible while the affair dies on the vine.

You want to paint a very horrible picture of her future if she takes this path while you are painting a very wonderful picture of a future with you.

All of this horrible ugliness could go away if she would only end her affair and work on your marriage.

UNDERSTOOD

Man, this thread is going to be 500 pages long by the time this is done.

Does she have a good job? Can she support herself?

Will it be okay to send her that in a text when the time comes? I just want to make sure I word everything right. If I do it verbally I may screw it up.

She makes 11 or 12 dollars an hour.

I asked her Mom if WS has still been distant from her. This was her reply:

"I talked to her on my Birthday, And again on her Birthday. I miss her on FB, Because I got so used to her just being there. I gotta say, She sounds very happy, She sounded excited about things . I will probably talk to her later, I sent her a Birthday pkg. Wanna see if she got it. Whew, need coffee, just woke up. Have a good day BS".

Granted, her birthday was *right* before I started any exposure.

Suggesting you might bring his parents and W into your suit is the kind of stuff that will have the effect of a cold splash of reality. See, she is drunk on the fantasy of her affair. Look for little ways, like you did last night, to drop some reality stink bombs into her little fantasy. If you paint a horrible picture of her future with RATBOY, you will cause her to have second thoughts.

For example, you could say something like "I am so scared that he will do to you what he did to his wife. She has cancer and he abandoned her when she got sick. I want you to know if you get sick, I will be here for you if he leaves you too."

And...because OM will decide it's just too much trouble (this isn't just because YOU are causing him trouble but also because your wife is driving him nuts moaning and complaining about YOU, talking about you and needing to reassure her that he's willing to wait and wait and wait and wait to be with her.

Hanging with your wife is going to harder than dealing with his real wife (who has cancer) let alone EVERY OTHER AVAILABLE WOMAN in the world.

Mr. W

That's a good one! Maybe I'll send that in a text tomorrow. I'll let last night's barrage sink in for another day first.

Melody - if I rewrite that text to say this, would it still be acceptable?

"WS,I am so scared that OM will do to you what he did to his wife. She has cancer and he abandoned her. I've heard that OM's wife is not completely innocent in all this, but there is no way she deserves what he did. I want you to know that if you ever get sick, I will be there for you holding your hand and supporting you if he leaves you as well."

I feel like I need to acknowledge that OM's wife is not completely innocent either, because OM's Dad told me as much.

I wouldn't send that text, but I would keep that thought in your back pocket and look for an opportunity to trot it out in the future. You want to throw her just enough to cause her to have doubts without making her defensive of the OM. If she goes into defense mode, then she will not hear anything you say. You threw some crap out there last night. I think if you sent that, you would clue her to the fact that you have an agenda.

What do you mean his wife is not innocent? Did she have an affair too?

The Dad would not tell me exactly what she did. I am 99% certain it was not infidelity though, from talking to her.

The reason I am so sure is because she told me she didn't want to meet me in person because while she is still married she is going to honor her covenant to her husband.

And...was this first hand knowledge or did his son tell him his wife did x, y and z???

OM's a liar...he likely lied to his dad too.


This isn't to say that OM's wife was a saint or anything but waywards rewrite history and overemphasize the bad to justify their behavior.


If he did lie to his dad...that would be good news because it shows he cares more than he's letting on about his dad's (parents) opinion.

Mr. W

I'm not sure if it's first hand knowledge or not. the Dad seemed uncomfortable talking about it.

She sounds wise. Lots of revenge affairs brew between the spouses of affairing spouses.

She is a very sweet person. I have no idea what she could have done.

I don't know why but I have a hunch...because she has cancer...it might have to do with depression and medication. They won't talk about it and since it's not likely adultery....it could be prescription med or other drug abuse.

She's mormon so alcohol is doubtful.

W

In your conversations with OM's wife...has she taken on blame herself???

That's a good theory. Not sure why they wouldn't be sympathetic towards something like that though.

No, she hasn't taken any blame.

Never mind...we are going down the wayward rabbit hole. The truth is the waywards are liars and nothing justifies their behaviors whatsoever.


If the dad ever says something like that again...just say:

"Do you know that first hand and seen it with your own eyes because you and I both know that your son (and my wife) are lost and lying sinners right now whose words are unreliable and untrustworthy"

Because their son has to justify and rationalize to himself and his parents why he would leave/abandon his wife while she's suffering from cancer, he would necessarily spin it in his favor by the magnitude of 10.

"Dad, my wife is taking Oxycontin and she's psychotic. Last week she called the cops on me for biting my finger nails too loudly. I haven't told you this before because I didn't want to upset you but this medication abuse has been going on for over a year. Between clonopin, oxycontin, xanax and the multiple doctors she sees to get multiple prescriptions to these I'm going crazy just living with her. I've got to get out. I can't have children (your grandchildren) with this woman. The sooner I get out the better. I'm sorry Dad."


Again...this is a rabbit hole. We could speculate all day about what this is about or you could ask the OM's wife on the phone what the Dad could be talking about. Heck...if the OM's wife doesn't know....three way in the father so all 3 of you can discuss it and get your facts straight.

Mr. W

Well unfortunately the OM's wife doesn't really want to be bothered or talked to about it anymore. She just wants it over with and to move on with her life.

Would it be okay to reiterate to her Mom again that I would like her support in ending their affair, and that I am still fighting for my marriage? I feel like I need to remind her that I haven't given up. But not sure if it's a good idea to keep reminding her.

Edit: She is just kind of spacey.. And is a total stoner.

Nevermind, I'm just anxious. Not going to worry about that.

I have an idea. I would feed her information that she will feed to your wife. Call her up and tell her you are so concerned about WW. That you care for her but you have found out things that lead you to believe her affair will lead to disaster.

Tell her you spoke to the OM's father and they do not support this affair at all. WW will never be allowed to darken their doorstep. That means that WW will be ostracized and that OM will have to choose between his own parents and WW. As soon as trouble enters their affair, the OM will dump her like he did his own wife.

Talk about how the OM dumped his own wife when she got cancer! As soon as the thrill wears off of the affair, he will dump WW too.

Other huge problems are: 95% of affairs fall apart in under 2 years because they are based on selfishness, thoughtlessness, deceit. These relationships never work out. For example, Dr Harley, who founded Marriage Builders says he has never found one such relationship in 40 years that was happy. Even the ones that stay together are miserable because the affairees have alienated their families.

The biggest concern is about the OM's wife. In our state, when there is adultery in a divorce, it gets very ugly. Affair partners are subpoenaed into court to give testimony about the affair. This means WW will be dragged into a divorce case and will have to get an attorney to protect her.

Express to her your deep "concern" about WW. Tell her that even if your marriage doesn't work, WW is making disastrous mistakes with her own life.

Gold. I will do it.

OJ, your attitude must be James Bond-ish, from here on out. You are to remain cool confident and composed at all times. When she wants to drag you into talks about her "reasons", you simply refuse to participate. You act the part of the ideal spouse - you look good, smell good, dress well, and project an air of concern based on your superior knowledge. If it comes to things like her lack of money, etc, you work to imply a sense of sadness at her poor choices.

One of the hardest parts about this is turning down dates with some really cute girls. My natural instinct is to go to someone that shows potential interest, rather than to pursue a person that wants nothing to do with me and is willing to betray and hurt me like she did.

There will always be really cute girls to date. Always.

Show some ability to be true to your marriage even though it is in tatters and know that any dating others would make you a justifying wayward like your wife.

Ya, I know. It just feels good to come on here and vent my feelings.

OJ,

Ask the OMW if she got cervical cancer from OM giving her HPV? Feed this info. back to your WW!

God Bless
Gamma

OJ,

It's very true that having an unwilling wife makes other women enormously more attractive. It's also true that in that state you are likely to pick one with worse defects than your current problem wife, don't even think about putting out the fire with gasoline.

God Bless
Gamma

You are very vulnerable right now...you shouldn't be putting yourself in the position to be propositioned and tempted by "really cute girls".

1. Another affair is just what the devil needs to destroy your marriage once and for all

2. How "cute" are any of these girls anyway trolling around and pursuing married men? Would you want your sister dating a guy in your position (still married and hurting hoping to reconcile with his wayward wife)?


Dating and girls can wait. You need a clear head to sort out your marital situation such that you can either recover it OR move on knowing you gave YOUR MARITAL COMMITMENT to love, honor and cherish your wife in good times and bad your fullest attention and devotion until the bitter end.

It's the right thing to do and nobody ever regrets doing the right thing.

W

It's SO frustrating that my wife keeps telling EVERYBODY that the reason she left has nothing to do with the affair, and everyone except a slight few that I am really close with is eating it up completely. I wish there was a way for everyone to see the truth.

Yes, I agree 100%. Like I said, it just felt good to come on and vent.

ODD, isn't it, that she didn't LEAVE until she started the affair? The solution to a bad marriage is to work to turn it around, not to have an affair. So if it wasn't the affair, why isn't she working to turn it around?

Even I still mostly believed everything she was saying until I found marriage builders. So I can understand why so many other people are believing her.

I wish there was a way for everyone to see the truth.

FOCUS, DUDE!

So far from you today we get

- "wishes" that you, personally, could re-make human nature to suit your current needs

- acknowledgement of, and covert longing for, other women

Getting back to reality: Where are you in your moving-home operation? This, and the follow-on steps, have the best chance of rendering your "wishes" and "longings" moot.

Thanks NG.

Reality - getting locks on new house changed tonight. moving into old house tomorrow. Will continue to talk to lawyers about potential lawsuits.

One of my big problems right now is financial. I am going to be scraping by trying to pay for both mortgages on my own - as my wife I'm sure will refuse to help pay once I piss her off by moving in. I don't think I can afford to pay for a lawsuit. Should I just have my lawyer threaten the lawsuits?

Seems I recall you telling us you can't file a claim for alienation in your state until she files for divorce so, yes, at this point you can just threaten at bit. But I wouldn't do it blatantly. If and when your wife talks about divorce and you say you don't talk divorce...just marriage...let it slip out that you can't wait to cross examine OM and his parents and their employers in court and that you intend to sue OM for Alienation of Affection. She will certainly be taking that info back to OM thus carrying your water for you. They will have a good laugh and act like it doesn't bother him/them but in the back of OM's mind this is just one more added hassle of being with your wife.

Waywards hate open courtrooms and the thought of having to testify out loud in front of people staring at them in disgust frightens the heck out of them.

I also like dropping hints to the WW that OM better watch his back. That he doesn't just get to ride off into the sunset with the hot girl. It's coming and he better be on guard for the surprise you've got waiting for him. OM's instinctively know they have a beat down coming so even though (I presume) you have no intent to get violent (which is what I advocate...he's not worth it), you are, once again adding to hassle of dating your wife. Eventually, fear of continued and never ending exposure, fear of a beatdown and a "girlfriend" who just can't stop talking and complaining about her husband is just too much....REALITY. I'm sure OM liked it so much better when you were complacent and trying to distance yourself hoping your wife would miss you, wonder what you were up to and come running back to you so scared of losing you.

Mr W

Ya, I am not a violent person. Not that he doesn't deserve a beat-down, but I am just not the kind of person to start throwing punches unless it is in self defense.

So do you guys think *I* should let it slip out that I plan on suing for alienation of affection next time my wife talks to me about divorce? Or do you think I should have my lawyer contact the OM to threaten?

Normally threats are stupid. You either do it or you don't and tipping your hand to the enemy is a bad strategy. However, alienation of affection lawsuits are typically fruitless expensive endeavors. You can do it to put pressure on the OM but you don't have kids and your asset division appears pretty simple (and done...she already signed over the house) such that by the time an alienation of affection lawsuit ever reached it's conclusion you'd have either recovered your marriage or long moved on to healthier relationships.

Thus...letting it slip to your wife would be a good step one, followed later by step two...a letter to OM from your attorney, followed, potentially by step three ...another more critical emergency sounding letter from your attorney...followed by filing a lawsuit that you can always settle or dismiss down the road. It may be much cheaper to get the lawsuit filed if you tell your attorney that much more likely than not...you'll be dropping the case sometime down the road and you just need him to file it for a small fee and sit on it delaying the case such that the minimal attorney fees are accumulated on an hourly basis.

AoA lawsuits biggest benefit is putting pressure on OM to end things. You aren't likely to win dollar one from OM ever pursing the claim.

Mr. W (attorney at law..btw)

Just talked to yet another attorney. From all of the attorneys I've talked to, they all don't really seem to think I have a case against the company. I still haven't heard back from the company WS and OM work for unfortunately... So they may have disregarded my letters.

As far as the alienation of affection, based on my situation they seem to think I have about a 60/40 chance of success, but it will be expensive.

The attorney I just talked to said he could send a letter saying to end the affair within X amount of time or you will be sued for alienation of affection for about $250.

I think I will do as you guys suggest and feed the info to my wife somehow first.

Oooh, good idea. I will asking about filing it with intent on planning to drop the case at a later date.

Be careful how you word that...it may be unethical for an attorney to file a lawsuit simply to harass an individual where the client has no intention of doing anything other than dropping it. You just say you want to minimize costs and anticipate settling the matter, hopefully, long before trial (like when the affair ends).

PLUS...once you file...it is possible that the OM will hire an attorney and COUNTERSUE you for something (libel or invasion of privacy or anything his lawyer can conjure up) under the belief that a good defense is a good offense at which point you merely dropping it is not so easy anymore.

Eh, too late. I sent him an e-mail saying basically what you said before. Oh well...

He knows my goal is to save my marriage, so he will understand where I am coming from at least.

If she ends up wanting to move in with OM after I move back into the old house, would it be detrimental to insist I keep the dog at home? She has always considered it her dog, but I love the thing just as much as she does.

...would it be detrimental to insist I keep the dog at home?

YES!

You want as many complications and entanglements as possible in their "love shack" fantasy.

Meanwhile, start listing your soon-to-be-empty house "For Rent". In addition to possibly giving you financial relief from a second mortgage, it will be another impediment to her thinking this will pass quickly.

Wait I'm confused. When I said detrimental, I meant detrimental to my goals. So I should insist on keeping the dog?

NO!!!!!!!

You want the lust-bunnies to have to walk him at 6:00am; buy dog-food for it; clean up after it; maybe lose rental options because of it!

Okay Okay, I understand now. I thought you were saying it would be an entanglement because she would miss her dog. I'm with you now though, 100%, lol.

Rrrr, just got word that OM was over at the house again yesterday. It made me only more anxious to move back in there. I can't wait.

But you already knew this, right? When does the locksmith come?

I think I may just move in tonight actually. I want to get this ball rolling.

Odd listen. HAVE A PLAN. Do not change your plan because of her actions. So what POSOM was there you know that. You know they had sex, if you follow your plan that you make in a calm mindframe you won't make emotional mistakes that become lovebusters.

the smith is coming tonight at 4 pm. After they are done, I think I will pack up some stuff and head over there.

Tranquil - I see what you're saying, but I am just not sure what the point of waiting until tomorrow would be?

His plan was to go over there after the locksmith changed the locks.

So her Mom doesn't want to talk to me for some reason... Maybe WS told her something, I don't know. Either way, I was thinking about sending her this message on facebook - tell me what you guys think:

I guess if it makes you feel uncomfortable to talk to me I understand, I just have some major concerns about WS's future, even if our marriage doesn't work out.

I'm worried this affair is going to end in disaster for WS. I have talked to OM's parents, and they are extremely upset, they support me trying to save my marriage, and have been demanding and pushing their son to end his relationship with WS. I don't think they will ever accept WS into their family because of the infidelity, adultery, and betrayal involved. I'm also really concerned that if WS ever gets sick one day, that OM will simply abandon WS just like he did with his current wife... Should that ever happen, know that I will be there beside your daughter holding her hand, taking care of her.

Good? Or should I change it?

No...let mom hang a bit. You don't know for sure she's avoiding you...she may just be getting a pedicure and a mani and your written contact after blowing up her phone may alarm her that you are going crazy (like your wife is telling her you are).

Your MIL is going to support her daughter in the long run. Don't speed her along that process.

Mr. W

She actually wrote back. I told her I would call her tonight.

I know how crazy / anxious / paranoid I am about everything right now. That's why before I do *anything* I post here first. I figure if I force myself to do that, I won't do anything stupid.

That's a great idea. The vets around here will be more than happy to bring you down to earth when you feel like you HAVE to do something.

We're here for you, buddy!

Locks changed. house sealed.

Mission complete

Going to eat - work out - shower, shave, dress nice, make sure I smell good, pack up some bare essentials and head over there tonight. I'm nervous as hell.

OJ, you know that phone commercial, the one where the guy is walking along with his phone, and hundreds of people are walking behind him, showing the support the phone company gives their subscribers? (I think there was even one commercial that had tech support flying around overhead in helicopters.)

Keep that visual in mind tonight. That's all of us, walking behind you as your support team.

Good job!! And be sure and tell her that the OM is never to darken your doorstep again or you will call the police and file a restraining order. your home is not a hoe house...

I shall - leaving now.

Good luck...

don't call the police or mention them

if she calls the police be calm and work with them but in the end if the police tell (not ask...but TELL) you to leave...respect them. They may be making a mistake but they are just doing their job and judges, should you end up in divorce court or a hearing to determine a restraining order...don't rule in favor of anyone that gives the cops a hard time.

Godspeed,

Mr. W

Well, I talked to her. I told her she is my wife, and I am her husband, and that I was moving back in, that OM is no longer allowed on the property - she kind of laughed. Looked at me like I was crazy. Then she said - "I'm leaving then." I told her that I am no longer supporting or enabling this affair. She said - "What are you talking about? We're done." I kind of just shrugged at her, I didn't say anything back. She closed the door to her room and just went "oh my god..." In a kind of "I can't believe how ridiculous this is" kind of way - like I am crazy.

Guys, the way she is talking to me is killing my motivation. It's so hard to do this. She is so cold towards me. And to think we were trying to have a baby 2 months ago.

Be loud and proud, dude!!!! The one being ridiculous here is the woman who is fogged out and high on affair crack.

Do you have a VAR? I'd keep one on my person if I were you, just in case.

It's her choice to move and makes it more in your favor (if you get to the divorce stage) if it's her that moves out. You're in the marital bed, right?

Right now she's locked up in her room. I don't know if I should continue to try and talk to her, or just leave her alone.

Just kick back and make yourself at home! Make some popcorn and watch The Voice!

Well, there is no marital bed really because we moved into the new house 2 months ago. Right now my cousin and his girlfriend are staying upstairs in this old house paying us a little bit of rent. My WS is downstairs in a little room that she has picked to stay in. You think it would be a good idea to insist to sleep in there?...

Guys - is the fog REALLY REALLY this powerful??? To make her just not give two sh**s about me at all? To be this cold. It's like she is a COMPLETELY different person, literally. Like, I understand the fog concept, it is just so hard for me to believe she can come back from this. Seeing it again right now just made me realize how far gone she is.

Unfortunately, yes, the fog is this bad. You just need to pretend that she's an alien that abducted your real wife.

It is possible for her to come back -- many have.

So.. when she said "we're done" I just kind of shrugged and gave her a little look that would go along with a shrug, lol... Is there something better I can do or say when she says things like that?

Yes, the fog is THAT powerful. And YES, she IS a completely different person. She is an addict. She's not the woman you married.

Know the enemy...and the enemy is The Fog...

Where do you plan to sleep? And why do you have someone living in the house? Where is the 'master' bedroom? Is there one?

You are hanging on every word of a falling down drunk? Please stop posting fogbabble!

Okay, so to explain the living arrangements in THIS house. When me and my wife bought a new house, we planned on renting out this old house. Well we found out in our refinance contract for this house that we weren't allowed to rend it out for a year. So we have my cousin and his girlfriend living in it paying us about 1/2 of the mortgage. After they moved in, My wife separated from me, and this was the only place for her to go, so she came here. My cousin and his GF are staying in the master bedroom upstairs. My wife is staying downstairs. I also plan on staying downstairs, but in the main family room right outside of the room she is staying in. Unless you think I should be super assertive and try to infiltrate her little safe place she has made. That will REAAAALLLLY piss her off I am sure. She said she is going to be leaving - not sure when.

I understand Melody - I just think until I see the fog lifted, I will never have 100% faith that it is just fog. I keep thinking I hear her sniffling in her room.. she has the TV on so it's really hard to tell.

You have seen signs of the fog all along. Does your wife seem rational to you at all? Doesn't she say crazy things to you that make no sense whatsoever? You have been telling us all this time that she has changed.

She is not speaking any logical fallacies or anything, it's the things she says about me and our relationship that don't make sense.

I take that back.. I think there have been a few logical fallacies.

Hmm... If she *is* crying, is that a good or bad thing? Man I wish I knew.

She just walked out of her room, walked past me and said "oh, god..." And she is leaving in her car.

Oh man she HATES that I am here so bad.. I really think she was crying.

To me, crying spells "conflict", and that's what you want - conflict in her affair.

Oh, nevermind.. She is just taking the dog out.

Wish I could say something to her? Would it be okay if I ask her to talk? say I just want to know how you've been doing?

Of course she hates that you're in the house. That means that you care and are willing to fight for her, and right now what with the affair she wants to demonize you. Your showing otherwise means conflict like MB said and conflict is good.

OOOOMMMMGGGG. Okay I tried to talk to her. She is balling, freaking out. She is like "You're forcing me to move in with OM! That's not what I want to do! F*** you, f*** you!" I told her we're still married, and that this is our house, and I am moving back in. Then she said "Us being married is just a technicality. I thought you were a logical person! F*** you! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" I said I just wanted to talk to you and see how you were doing... I kept saying you're welcome to stay here, I would love for you to stay here.

good? She is SO upset.

I just reiterated again, that if she wants to leave, that's okay, but she is very welcome here, that I'd love for her to be here. That I'd love to have a friendly conversation with you, and I'm sorry you're upset.

She replied: What am I supposed to do?? I have work tomorrow! I got to find a place to go to right now?? I don't want to be near you, I don't want to talk to you, I don't want anything to do with you. And STOP APOLOGIZING TO ME FOR BEING UPSET.

Why am I enjoying this so much?

My voice has been calm and cool this whole time.

She is texting OM like crazy of course. I went upstairs into another room to get out of her way... I think I've done enough damage.

Don't talk to her.
Go make supper for yourself and leave extra if she wants some.

She is going to be freaking out because it is normal when your betrayed spouse moves back home while you are cheating and justifying it to freak out.

SImply do no Love Busting (read about them if you don't know what they are) and be polite to her and the upstair renters (who really, if you can afford it.......would be nice to get rid of since they may be part of the reason your marriage is a mess due to their presence in the house).

When wife hisses and spits at you and says she is moving out with OM......just look concerned but do not engage verbally and become busy in activity in the home (wiping down the counters, reading a newspaper or etc).

She may move out BUT she already said she isn't fond of that idea. She dreads it. If she goes, she may possibly come back. Bottom line= you can only control yourself.

Yes, good. Well done, OJ, for not allowing her to drag your into her manipulation! Her comments are more fogbabble - of COURSE you're not "forcing" her to move in with OM! Her plan was to use the house as a flophouse while she screwed around with OM. You've interfered with her plans. Good for you!

Here's the true story: for whatever reason, she CAN'T move in with OM, or she would have done so already.

Dang, son. Well done.

No she can't, because right now OM lives with his parents until later this week.

Offer to make her some soothing tea - chamomile with honey usually works.

At her next outburst, you CALMLY repeat: "I own this house, and this is where I plan to stay." Then turn back to reading one of the MB books.

You don't have kids, so you're going to have to trust me on this. For the foreseeable future, WW is going to have all the emotional grounding and rational behavior of the typical 15y/o girl. A part of their brain midway between the reptile portion and the mid-higher primates (think: chimpanzee who had his banana snatched away) is totally in control. There is no governor on her mouth, and no ability to compose and follow a plan, even one in her best interest.

Here at MB we call it "bat-sh*t crazy". Your WW seems to have it BAAAAAAD, which ultimately should be good for you.

I just played the guitar and sang a song. I know she could hear me. I'm just chillin out.

If I run into her again before she leaves, I will tell her I am going to walmart to get some food since I am just moving in and I'll ask if she wants something as a gesture of good faith.

Oh, should I offer to help her pack her things?

Oh, wawawawa! Poor widdle thing has to go find herself a poor widdle place to stay!

Sorry, that's my personal thought - YOU need to be your caring, considerate self. Ask her if she needs help getting a taxi if she is determined to leave the house.

No. Don't leave. Sit tight tonight. Order out if you need chow for dinner.

I just offered to help her pack. Of course she refused.

Edit: I asked her if she was leaving tonight, and she said she was leaving RIGHT NOW.

Man she if feisty.

Has she enjoyed your playing and singing in the past? If so, sing away. If she hasn't shown interest before, put the guitar away.

I just played the guitar and sang a song.

Can you "cover" these?

She has liked it, ya. She loved with I would play certain songs.

Nope. You're home. She's home. Let her figure out what she wants to do and make it happen.

She is STOMPING through the house, slamming things closed.

Very good! You said she enjoyed your guitar-playing; keep it up. You don't want to behave in a new way; if guitar-playing is a normal activity of yours, strum on.

She's pissed. Well done.

She is STOMPING through the house, slamming things closed.

....like a 15yo girl, (ahem) one week out of four!

So after transcribing our conversations, do you guys think I said the right things? Mostly at least?

You're killing me, NG!

Do you take special requests??

I would like to hear Hair of the Dog by Nazareth, please SIR!

you are doing great!!

I wish I could remind her of all the great times we've had together.. Obviously she is in no mental state to entertain those thoughts though.

Be careful in case she calls the police. If she does, calmly tell them that you are married and this is your home. Your wife is unhappy because she is having an affair and apparently had loverboy in YOUR HOUSE over the weekend while you were away. If they ask you to leave to "keep the peace" tell them that you would like to cooperate but you are not willing to leave your home.

Dang, that's a mighty fine song. I wouldn't mind hearing that one, myself.

What about Highway to Hell by AC/DC??

She won't call the police. I know her. Even how she is now, I still know she won't.

I will sang it for ya, hun!!

Heart breaker, soul shaker
Ive been told about you
Steamroller, midnight stroller
What they've been saying must be true

Bridge:

Red hot mama
Velvet charmer
Times come to pay your dues

Chorus:

Now you're messin with a
A son of a b****
Now you're messin with a son of a b****
Now you're messin with a
A son of a b****
Now you're messin with a son of a b****

Talkin jivey, poison ivy
You aint gonna cling to me
Man taker, born faker
I aint so blind I can't see

And let them know that she has been storming through the house, threatening to leave. Tell them that you would like her to stay, but she seems determined to leave.

All in a very calm voice.

I just want to explain what you are dealing with right now. You are the person who storms into the crackhouse and interrupts the crack smoking session. The crack heads are FURIOUS! That is all that is happening here.

That is why we can laugh. We know it is pure fogbabble that stems from her affair high.

You are interfering in her affair in a HUGE WAY. And that is GOOD.

I just want to tell her how ridiculous she is being. Like, you're upset with me for not wanting you to cheat on me in my house? Really?

I guess you're right melody. I'm more concerned about her trying to do something more malicious though.

You don't like old people music??

So she is obviously going to be leaving tonight. So what is my next step?

edit: nevermind, next step is wait for divorce papers, then tell her all that stuff you told me to tell her

edit 2: With her this furious - and she will be furious for a good while about this one - should I invite her to my party this saturday?

Very good. Some waywards get so whacked out that they believe their spouse doesn't belong in their own home.

Part of her addiction requires her to have a swingin' single's pad. You've removed that. Very good. That will force a little reality into her fantasy.

NOOOOOO!

Jame Bond would not do that! He'd mix a martini, adjust his tuxedo tie, and be an absolute PICTURE of suave.

BE James Bond!

What do you think she would do?

Is your cousin there? Did your cousin know that her OM was staying there?

Does James Bond not like AC/DC??

Yes cousin knew about it. He was just trying to stay out of it. It was incredibly awkward for him. He is going to be grateful that she is gone.

And I'm just a little worried about her trying to screw my financially somehow. I mean, we have separate bank accounts now, but some of our loans, like her car loan, her school loan etc are under both our names, and I'm not sure if she transferred the auto-payments to her bank account yet or not.

He's 28!! He doesn't know what a martini is!!

So many notes flying in - I was addressing OJ's note proposing being whiny and needy.

Absolutely!

Wahoo! My college kids are home for the summer - I'm singing and embarrassing them to death - love it!

Don't insult the young folk here. LOL

I'm betting you make Geritol Martini's!

Which one?

hun, just wanted to invite you to a housewarming party this weekend. We would love to have you! Good time for all! hugs....

edit: the above is a suggested TEXT.

He's 28!! He doesn't know what a martini is!!

It's like a chocolate milk, only with gin instead of milk and vermouth instead of Hershey's chocolate syrup! Shaken, not stirred!

I don't think she's going to leave. I don't think she has anywhere to go.

Sure - tell her she is absolutely welcome to come to your party. Tell her it's going to be a blast, and you'll enjoy having her there. I don't think her fury is going to last as long as you think. She's painted herself into a corner.

Be strong and calm, OJ!! We are here for you. You are doing just fine, son.

Well she took off with some bare essentials. Not sure where. I don't know if OM has his new apartment or not.

Well, you definitely made things very hard for her tonight, which is a good thing.

I would go change the sheets, clean up the room and take it over. You did great!

Should I pack her stuff for her? She only took some essentials.

I wouldn't. But you can text her an invitation to your party.

Just making sure: have you cut off all jointly-owned credit cards, or any other mutually-owned sources of funds? We've had waywards clean out accounts before. If she wants to run off in some dramatic display, it needs to be from a source other than co-owned funds.

Yes, we've separated our bank accounts and credit cards.

I will, but when do you think? Right now obviously not, ya?

I would do it now because I don't want her to think her little tantrum affected you in any way, shape or form. If she believes her tantrum worked, she will be emboldened. And by reaching out to her you are showing care and compassion.

"hun, I am sure sorry you felt like leaving. You are free to stay with me! And if you don't feel like it, please accept my invitation to come to my housewarming party this weekend. Luv, OJ"

a follow up text: "Saturday at 6:00. Hamburgers and beer! Dress casual.."

...and oh, yes, ask where she's staying so you can drop off the dog!

She took the dog when she left.

I sent those 2 texts Melody - slightly modified to make them sound like they were coming from me.

And by the way, I've been adding "Love, Kinsels" at the end of every text - Kinsels is the nickname she made up for me. It's not my real name. Is that good to use that "pet name"?

That is a very nice touch!

What odds she's heading over to the NEW house, expecting to let herself in there?

20 to 1?