The affair is over, but my husband is holding on to letters and pictures from the OW. He says he is "just not ready to let go yet."

Any thoughts on this? Shouldn't he WANT to let go for OUR sake? How do I approach this?

That's a big red flag.

We need more information.

How long married? Any children? Ages?
How long was the affair? When did it end?
Who was the OW?
Who was this exposed to, if anyone?

Sorry you are here BTW and welcome

How long married? 11 years

Any children? 2 girls Ages? 6 and 5 -- 5 year old has special needs

How long was the affair? -- 4 months. Emotional Affair with a woman out of state. He traveled to see her ONCE, no sexual contact.

When did it end? October 11 - the day before our 11th anniversary, 2 months after D-Day

Who was the OW? An old friend from his youth

Who was this exposed to, if anyone? Once I discovered it, I told a LOT of people in search of support. He told no one but his parents after they heard it from me.

Is the OW married?

Who did you expose to on OW's side?

Did he write a NC letter?

Hi blndbabz, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. What do you know about the OW? Is she married? Does she have a facebook page?

Does your husband travel for a living?

Your husband is holding onto the affair, because he is still hoping to resume it. It pains him not a whit to think of the pain his holding onto these causes you; and this demonstates that he is not at all serious about recovering your marriage. He might be serious someday, but he is not now, at least not yet.

Speaking to you as a man who had an affair (the worst thing I've ever done), if I were you, I'd give him about 30 seconds to put those pictures out in the trash, or about 30 minutes to get all of his things packed & outta there. That's giving him the courtesy of a choice, which is more than he gave you when he opted to have an affair.

How do you know there was no sexual contact? I find that hard to believe.

OW is in the middle of a divorce. No one on her side knows a thing. He did not write a letter, but ended things verbally.

I know a lot. He has disclosed most of the details. She is mid divorce. I have seen her facebook page and she would often post messages to him calling him "Monkey." Her messages are mostly song lyrics, often inappropriate ones.

Hubs does not travel for a living. He lied about a visit to his mother's home. He was easily caught when he never showed up at his mom's. I found him by pinging the GPS on his phone.

I don't know that he is holding on to the affair. He is very angry with the OW. She began harassing my family, his parents, and my parents after he ended the affair. He is so angry. He wrote a letter to her husband and her parents explaining the affair, took a picture of it, and sent it to her with a warning that any further attempts to contact him or any member of his family will result in him mailing the letters.

Stress can be the biggest killer of romance. Call it Karma or Mother Nature, but I know that he developed a medical condition that prevented him from having sex just prior to his visit with her.. He does say that he would not have done it if he could have, but I doubt that.

Thanks for all the support and questions. I'm not 100% sure why this was moved out of the recovery thread. The truth is we are on the road to recovery. We are both happy and working hard on making this work out. I'm just struggling a bit with the letters and photos. I'm not sure what he's waiting for when it comes to getting rid of them.

"In the middle of a divorce" is weasel-ese for MARRIED. I would begin by informing her husband of the affair. Does the OW have a facebook page?

blndbabz, the best thing you can do for your marriage is expose this affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it ruins the fantasy and magic of the affair. It is no fun to hang onto a fantasy when everyone is looking at you with disgust and horror. Eveyrone should know that the OW was carrying on with a married man, especially her husband. He has a RIGHT to know what your husband and his wife have done behind his back.

Please go read the link in my signature about "exposure." It will tell you how to do this. You should probably go to her facebook page NOW and copy and paste her contacts into a WORD doc for safekeeping.

Can you go do that?

And you do realize that he lied about not having sex with her, right?

Do you still have the letter? You can send that to the husband and the parents.

You are not in recovery if he is hanging onto these momentos. Not even close. Is there a reason why you are tolerating having these reminders of the worst thing that ever happened to you in your home? Surely he understands that this is an abhorrent reminder of the affair?

That is not believable. There are many ways to have sex and a man does not travel to see his OW and not have sex.

Even if there was no sexual intercourse (which I don't believe) there is still all sorts of sexual contact they could have had. Unless you were personally there to witness what took place or WH has had a polygraph, I would not believe what your WS says. All WSs are liars and will minimize what happened...hoping a BS will buy it and leave it alone. In all the years I have been on MB, I can't recall a single WS puking up all the details and not withholding info.

This.................


does not line up with this................


You are making a very common mistake and judging your husband by his WORDS rather than his actions. It is a shock and awe tactic to throw you off balance so you won't expose his affair. The fact that he is hanging onto these momentoes shows how he really feels.

If you want to kill the affair for good, I would expose it to her husband, her parents and her facebook friends. Your husband should not be told in advance of the exposure. And if he is sincere about recovery, he won't mind this at all. I would also insist that he get rid of all momentos. You can burn this trash together in your backyard BBQ.

If he is holding onto pictures and letters of OW, he is holding onto the affair.


He is sooooo angry but he keeps her pictures and letters?
He is sooooo angry that he writes an exposure letter but doesn't send it?

Your WH is playing games. He hasn't DONE anything and is only trying to do damage control. Lots of talk and no action here. If you want to get to the truth, you should contact the BH and speak to him.

Here you go.
Polygraph Testing

I am hopelessly in love with my husband. Everything is still pretty fresh. He only ended the EA with her one week ago. I'm trying to give him space to work out what he needs to. He's in a mourning period over the loss of her friendship.

I confronted him about the letters and photos last night. He has them hiddne in his safe. he said he put them there a few weeks ago and hasn't had the chance to get rid of them. He has promised that we will take them into the yard tomorrow night and burn all of the letters and pictures. He wants me to feel safe and he wants all the reminders gone for both of our sakes. SO HE SAYS. I'll believe it when I see it.

I just keep wondering what else will pop up! Jus when I think that everythng is gone, somehting else comes up. I want to wake up from this nightmare.

What do you mean by OW is harassing your families? What is she doing?

Why haven't you exposed on OW side?

Ok, this makes more sense now. You just discovered it and he is doing damage control and is in a fog. The fog is an alternate reality that waywards perceive as reality when they are carrying on their affair. He doesn't care about your feelings at this point (sad but true, if he says otherwise he is lying because he would run and try to correct everything asap if he truly cared). You will sadly not be in true recovery for quite some time and you need to get very familiar with MB principles and practice them fully to recover your marriage.

Secondly, giving him space is the worst thing you could do for your marriage right now. Read up on Plan A, you need to spend at leat 25 hours of UA time together a week (space is the enemy right now).

Third, don't be afraid to tell him he must get rid of the stuff right away and honestly you should be part of it so you're sure the stuff is disposed of and not hidden. There should be nothing slowing this or preventing this. I find it hard to believe he hasn't had the chance to get rid of the stuff he just doesn't want to get rid of the stuff, it is an obvious excuse and an attempt to gaslight you. Tell him, lets go now and dispose of this stuff the very next time you see him, we have a perfect opportunity to correct this right now, so lets go.

Last, expose to everyone of your family, husband's family, friends and OW's side. Her H deserves to know what happened especially in divorce proceedings, this woman could be trying to be setting up alimony for all you know and she obviously doesn't deserve it.

Completely cutting off all contact with OW, affair momentos and any way to even see a picture of the OW is necessary. Your H is trapped in an addiction right now and everything must go so he can go through withdrawal and detox from the addiction. He will not see things clearly and will be in the fog until he goes through withdrawal and detoxes.

When WH ended the affair, OW began calling my house... 15 times in succession, leaving messages for me to call her and get all the details on the affair. She was mad at him. I ignored the calls. He and I then went away for the weekend to celebrate our anniversary and work on the rebuilding. We left my parents with the kids. She called them a dozen times and told them she was a "concerned friend" of mine. When she realized we were not home, she called WH's parents and spoke th is mother saying she was concerned about him because he was so hurt when they ended the affair.

We used the threat of exposure to get the harassment to stop. She has not contacted us or any of our family members since we made the threat. If I expose her now, she will begin the harassment again.

You should have just exposed without even warning. Same as you should do with your H. He is still clearly entrenched in the A and that is why he doesn't want to 'let go' of the remnants of the A. It is as ridiculous as it sounds and you are not crazy by being completely appalled by his behavior.

Waywards are cowards if you haven't you realized that yet. They will say anything to try and get you to keep their A secret so that it is not disrupted. EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE!!!

Change your number and if she continues to harass then call the police. If this was some stranger doing the same thing isn't that what you would do?

Since she began harassing the family, he has started to see her for who she really is. He is recognizing her lies, her crazy (she's really nuts), and her lack of connection with reality.

As far as exposure goes, all of our friends and family know. Her family/friends do not. We are using that as a form of blackmail to keep her at bay. We need her GONE. She is the product of a wealthy upbringing and has a lot to lose if exposed including her children and home. We do not want to DESTROY her, but we do want her to learn the consequences of her actions. The blackmail, as horrible as it sounds to put it that way, seems to be doing the trick.

I can tell you I tried the exact same thing and it did not work! I waited 6 months to tell the OMW. And what consequences?

Listen to this! Your path has been lived before and it doesn't work. Dr. Harley is an expert and has been counseling couples how to deal with infidelity for over 40 years.

Not exposing the OW is enabling her to get away with her actions not holding her accountable. She will think she can do this to someone else's family and her own and get away with it in the future. Hold her accountable and force her to deal with the consequences of her actions.

If your WH is trying to keep you from exposing it is because he is trying to protect the OW and the A. OPEN YOUR EYES! No good will come from keeping the A a secret.

I think you are in denial and BS denial is a huge issue we see on these forums daily.

First, if he "saw her for who she really is", then he why would he be hanging on to the affair mementos even at your protestation? Really? He would risk hurting his BW more for someone he know realizes is crazy? Do you see how that doesn't line up??

Second, that's not how affairs work. He fell in love with her and while she may have upset him with her calls and harassment (lovebuster) it wasn't nearly a dent in the huge account she has with him.

I know that must hurt and I am sorry but you must face reality. She is a threat to your M and always will be. She is like crack to him and as for right now, he is refusing to put down the crackpipe, otherwise he would be willing to get rid of the affair tokens...

Because your WH still hasn't put down the crackpipe and you should be in operation kill affair vs. let's try to move on to the recovery part of this plan.

The affair isn't over, BB. Your WH isn't being honest with you about this affair having only been an EA (I don't believe that for one second and if he is being truthful then he should have no problem taking a poly). And this hasn't been properly exposed.

Blackmailing the OP never works. This will backfire on you. We can smell a FR from a mile away and this is a FR. Sorry

First off, you don't have the power to destroy her. And secondly, you are protecting the affair by keeping the OWs secret for her and your husband. The "blackmail" ploy keeps you quiet so they can go further underground with the affair.

You are unwittingly being tricked into protecting the affair for the OW. Affairs thrive on secrecy so you have become an accessory to the crime.

Since your husband has tricked you into silence with this "blackmail" scheme, he is free to resume the affair at any time. You have helped him leave that door wide open.

And how will the OW husband find out the truth if you don't tell him? Are you really a cruel person?

This sounds like a very desperate and addicted OW. I think this affair is deeper than you want to believe.




Are you snooping to see if the affair has gone underground? It makes me very suspicious when an OW goes silent without being exposed herself...especially after all that drama.

You need to expose her. If the harassment starts again then expose that also to her family and ask for their help in getting her to stop trying to destroy your family.

"She is the product of a wealthy upbringing and has a lot to lose if exposed including her children and home. We do not want to DESTROY her, but we do want her to learn the consequences of her actions"

No, you don't. You are protecting her from the consequences of her actions by hiding the affair for her. You hurt your marriage, your husband, her husband, her children, and the OW by covering up for her. NO ONE wins this way. Your husband is protecting her so he can continue his affair- WITH YOUR HELP.

If she loses anything it will be because of her affair, not because you told the truth. And since she is not worried about that, why should you be?

And how will your husband learn his lesson if his other victim, the
OW husband is not told of his crime against him? Does that look like remorse to you when your H deceives this man?

You protect your husband from the consequences of his behavior so as a result he learns nothing. Nothing.

How do know that OW wasn't coming to visit your WH during that time?

blndbabz,

You are in your own lalaland if you think there isn't more to this affair but it is your choice if you don't want to follow MB to kill the affair and give your marriage a REAL chance. If the affair keeps chugging along you have the REAL possibility of contracting an STD, having on OC born of an affair (unless either AP is infertile...think about how that would blow your and your children's lives up), or a nervous breakdown. Ignorance is not bliss to most people...maybe it is to you as you don't seem to WANT the truth.

Good luck to you.

First, I�m feeling a little bit attacked here. Is it really so wrong to trust the man I�ve known for 13 years? Is it really so bad that I can see into his eyes and find the truth?

I�m at work right now. He has messaged me that he deleted all of her photos off of his phone and will prove it when I get home. He has also promised that we will destroy the letters and photos together when I get home. That�s progress� right?

He said he was keeping the letters because she said a lot of nice things about him during a time when no one else was. I explained that every day they remain in his life is another dagger thrown at me and I need them gone.

The EA began in June and lasted 4 months. It was a rekindled friendship from his past (no relationship history) that resurfaced through facebook. I have read the emails, messages, texts, etc. and can see that she was out to capture his heart from the beginning. I think he was blind to that� just because I know him and he�s the type who is oblivious to the romantic intentions of women.

As for the EA� He was unhappy with our marriage. I had become cold and distant, as had he. We are both to blame. He needed someone to talk to and the OW showed up at the �right� time to catch his attention. He admits that he cares for her but says that he never REALLY loved her the way she wanted him to. Since she lived half way across the country, he told her he loved her to keep the conversations going. He admits that he encouraged her and her words of love to him because he wasn�t getting them from me at home and the stroke to his ego was comforting.

The OW became obsessed. She decided that I would be willing to sign off my rights to my own children so that he could leave me and join her . She began sending gifts to my children and calling her fantasy family the �Party of Six� including her kids, my kids, and my WH. She began calling his mother �Mama� and referred to herself as the new mother to my children. He said he never discouraged her but knew that it would never happen. He has said that even if I left him, he does not want her in that way.

Since D-Day, he has ended the relationship 3 times. After the first time, she faked a car accident and hospital stay to get his attention. After the second time, she threatened to kill herself and said he destroyed her life and would make her children motherless. The third and final end came on Oct. 11 � the day before our wedding anniversary. That is when the harassment began.

Since the breakup � she has mailed photos and letters to him, sent gift baskets for my children, contacted HIS parents, contacted MY parents, and left cruel voice messages. He has begun to see her true colors and is very angry with her for all she has done. He said he had wanted to end it nicely, but now is so upset with her behavior that he does not care how hurt she is by the break up. He said that she deserves the pain after all she has done to us.

If I expose her to her husband and family, she will begin harassing him, me, and our families again. I don�t want that. I just want her gone. Once we burn her letters and photos tonight, she will be gone.

Am I being na�ve? Is it wrong for me to believe that he has really let go of her and is moving forward with me? It feels like the replies I�ve gotten have been harsh. I love him. My WH was and is a good man who just got lost when someone showed him the affection I hadn�t been giving him. Now that he is getting that affection from me again, he doesn�t need or want her. That�s progress isn�t it?

What do I do here? I had myself convinced that we were doing things the right way, but now� you are all making me doubt myself and my husband and I don�t want to do that. I want to restore, rebuild, and recover.

BB,

The ONLY way to recover a marriage after an affair is to kill the affair (never see or speak to OP again), implement extraordinary precautions, and built a passionate marriage.

Right now, your husband is not trustworthy. He is a foggy liar. You said yourself that he has broken up with her three times, twice letting her back into his life. You are only talking about a max of one week no contact, maybe less.

Please follow the advice of people here who know what they are doing. Recovering after an affair is a long roller coaster, full of ups and downs. And those people who actually recover their marriage DO NOT take shortcuts in implementing MB. If you haven't read it already, get and read Dr. Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair".

Snooping like crazy. I feel like a private investigator. Fortunately, WH is terrible at covering his tracks. I do wish I could get into his locker at work, tho... hmmmmm....

Everything everybody is telling you is in your best interest. Everybody here has the interest of helping you recover your marriage. Nobody can say what you're H is feeling for sure but they do know how all waywarda act and what his actions point to. Everybody here who is a BS never thought their partner was capable of what they did and I will tell you that with 100% accuracy. But guess what, they all did it and they all deceived and lied about it, every single one of them. Is your H the one and only who never did, more than likely not. It is about protecting yourself and that is what everyone is trying to get you to do, protect yourself from allowing this to happen to you again.

Are you being naive? I believe so, we all want to see the good in our spouse and trust them but once they are in the addiction of infidelity they are not themselves. They are addicts and sadly addicts can never be trusted or believed. Thats a fact. It's your marriage and your life but I don't see your marriage recovering and being happy without instituting the necessary EPs in place. There are 2 reasons, your H will be too tempted to stray again to fill his high and your resentment will grow and overtake you to the point of not wanting the relationship or worse falling victim to the same addiction as your H.

People are giving you tough love because they know how your story ends, tney have seen it many times.

blndbabz, I am sorry you feel these answers are harsh. It is the truth that is harsh and all of these people possess something you do not: an objective perspective and the experience of recovering a marriage after an affair. We are trying to help you recover your marriage and see how very foggy your husband is. Many of his stories make no sense, such as his claim that he is over her while grasping onto her momentoes.

The reason your husband had the affair is becuase he did not take precautions to avoid it. The poor state of your marriage might have made it more tempting, but the cause are his poor boundaries around women. Even if you meet his needs to absolute perfection, he will have another affair if he does not change his poor habits and change the environment that led to the affair.


YEs it is. You know good and well you don't trust him. It is not good to pretend like you trust someone you know is untrustworthy. It was too much trust that led to the affair in the first place. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries.

I would strongly suggest that you contact the OW's husband and inform him of the affair so he can protect himself and his children from your husband. If he knows the truth, he can make sure she doesn't contact him anymore. Your husband is free to contact her at any time as long as her husband does not know the truth.

And the OW can't "harass" your husband anymore if he has cut off all contact. Telling the OW's husband the truth is the right thing to do for all of you.

You have gone through 3 d-days and it is highly doubtful this affair is over. I predict you are headed for more because you insist on keeping this affair secret from her husband.

You have absolutely no reason to believe the affair is over. And this was certainly a sexual affair. How many times has she come to your town that you don't know about?

Thank you. I'm just a bit emotional and sensitive today. I so want to believe that we can move on from this. I've always believed that a PA is much easier to overcome than a EA... and here I am dealing with a EA.

My main concerns:

1. When I want to talk about what happened, he answers in what appears to be an honest way. He has told me all of the details, even silly little ones that don't matter. Once the conversation is drawing to a close he asks, "When is this interrogation going to end?" I can hear a hint of irritation in his voice and I know he's tired of answering questions constantly.

2. He calls my "security checks" intrusive and calls it "surveillance." he wants it to stop. But I'm scared that if I stop, he'll start up again.

3. He said that everything is over and he wants to move forward and fix the parts of our marriage that were broken... leading to the A. What he fails to recognize is that the A is the biggest marriage failure of all!!! He doesn't want to recognize it as a problem, but as an unfortunate side affect to the REAL ISSUES.

4. I admit that we had problems that we need to fix, but I refuse to be the scapegoat for his A. I didn't do this to him, he did it to me. I've heard about other WS who BEG for forgivness and for the BS to let them stay. He has never once done that. It's been the other way around. ME begging him to stay.

5. I'm living in constant fear that if I do something or say something wrong, he's going to go back to her. he insists that he will not and has proven it over the past week, but I still have the fear. And he doesn't seem to be trying to calm that fear.

Honestly, I don't believe she has come to our area at all. I'm always around and he wouldn't have been able to see her. It was that one weekend when he said he needed to just "get away" that I found him in Florida. Her letters all said, "I can't wait until xx date when I will finally see you and get to kiss you."

That was the one weekend he went away. She also mentioned "I'm good for the dates in October" but those dates never happened because he dumped her.

bb, I am so sorry, but the affair has not ended. He has just gone further underground. This is why he feels your checks are intrusive. I would suggest that you do in a more secret way so he doesn't KNOW you are snooping. You will find the affair is not over. The reason the OW was harassing you is because they had a big fight, I suspect.

If the affair has really ended, there is no reason why it would be a problem to expose it to her husband and family members. But your husband is terrified you will do this because it will interfere wtih his affair.

You might believe you know your husband - and you do - but WE KNOW WAYWARDS. This man is not your husband, he is a wayward who is very high on the addiction to his OW.

Are you saying you are with him 24/7? And he is NEVER out of your sight?

That won't work, dear girl.

Lots of people have tried it only to have it blow up in their faces.

It is also morally wrong to help this woman decieve her H. He has been through the same nightmare as you and now you are witholding the truth from him as part of a blackmail scheme that will help no one.

This A will definitely restart. The BH is completely in the dark and you have agreed to help the waywards lie.

You're even allowing him to keep the memories. Vomit.

If you're not ready now, will you come back when the A restarts?

I'd rather save you that, though. Most people with two D days say the second one hurts worse. Usually we had told them it was coming.

I've never seen anyone on these forums more likely to experience a second D Day than you.

Good luck.

He is actively creating fear by sneering at your concerns and checks instead of being encouraging, transparent and making his life an open book. He is gaslighting you so he can resume the A.

You don't have recovery at all. You have a hiatus until the second D Day.

He is amazingly foggy and disrespectful of you. Keeping mementos!!!!

The affair is underground and secret. While her divorce goes on you are HELPING make sure she is not blamed in the D and she can come back for your H later.

If you expose OW, she will realise her future with him is futile. She won't be able to introduce him around as the new boyfriend she met AFTER her D.

She won't harrass you if he's no longer any good to her after exposure.

Why is she harrassing you if she's been kicked to the kerb and he left her without hope?

She's harrassing you because when he ended it verbally he didn't end it at all. He said: "I have to go back to my mean wife and keep her quiet".

Ask him to write an NC letter which you can mail and see what reaction you get.

THREE D days and you are still helping cover for her!!

Unbelievable.

Sorry if you find my comments harsh but it is the truth of what you are dealing with. And yes you are being naive.


^^^^This is your biggest problem. You are afraid to act and your WH knows it.


This says a lot...and none of it is good.

Well, I do know. I've been in an affair, sorry to say. You don't have to guess, you can take it from me & take it to the bank: Guys that are done with the affair get rid of the pictures & keepsakes as if they were jars of anthrax, ma'am. They don't hang on to them over their spouse's objections.

That's not harsh, it's just a fact; and it's good information for you. What you choose to do with this info, is up to you.

UPDATE!

The pictures and letters have been destroyed. WH has apologized for keeping them. We had therapy tonight. It went well. Therapist expressed some of the same concerns as voiced here.

WH wants us to move forward and has promised full disclosure. We will be changing our phone number. I plan to approach him about sending the letters to BH and OW's parents tomorrow.

FYI: WH works nights. I work days. We only see each other for significant amounts of time on the weekends. This weekend he will be taking the kids to his mother's house. He needs to confront his parents and explain everything that has happened, apologize for what he has done, and let them know that we will be working it out. MIL has promised to keep an eye on him to assure he doesn't leave the house while he is there. She fears that OW may show up at her door.

WH has sworn that any attempted contact by OW will be not be tolerated. He has agreed to change our home phone number. All cell phones have blocked the OW. GPS on WH's phone is active and I can ping him at any time to verify his location. I have been given all passwords on the computer and he has blocked her on facebook.

Feeling: Hopeful.

Why aren't you going with to his parents' house? He needs to talk to them without you there?

You are making serious strategic mistakes. This is not hopeful. First off, he should not go anywhere over night. He should not be anywhere NEAR his mothers house since that is where the OW lives. He needs to be home. YOU should be doing all the exposing. YOU should speak to his parents - ON THE PHONE. you should contact the betrayed husband and the OW's parents - ON YOUR OWN WITHOUT FOREWARNING YOUR HUSBAND. Your husband has absolutely no reason and no cause to contact the OWH and her parents.

The affair should always be exposed by the betrayed spouse so that a) it gets done and b) the truth is told. You can't depend on a liar to tell the truth. Especially when he is deeply and profoundly addicted to the OW.

Once you do this, I would strongly urge you to both get on the day shift if you have any hope of saving your marriage. Living entirely separate lives has led to this horrible place in your marriage.

Please stop winging this and let us help you through this process. You are making serious, strategic mistakes at a very critical time in your marriage. You can't afford these mistakes.

This is ridiculous. And I know you know it is ridiculous. A habitual liar who is under the spell of a POWERFUL addiction is not going to cut off his source.

Just curious--was it HIS idea to go to his mother's house and make a big deal out of "apologizing in person" ?????

I am not trying to be mean to you here, but as a former wayward, this is very disconcerting. Here is why :

You do not even have a full disclosure here. The OWH has not even been informed. Now your husband has a whole weekend to figure out a way to contact his OW to spin their story and cover their tracks.

It is nice that his mother promised to make sure he doesn't leave...but does his mother have internet ? phone ? neighbors who have internet ? neighbors who have phone ? A mailbox ? Do the neighbors have a mailbox ?

You do not understand the power of his addiction. And while he is swearing to you that he will not tolerate her, he is swearing to HER that he "has to lay low for a while until all this blows over ".

I know you WANT to believe him, but you have no reason to. He is a typical addicted wayward who will do anything to protect his own butt and to keep eating cake . Because.he.can.

Sorry. Really, I am . But this is your new reality. Be strong enough to face it.

I'm sorry for the confusion. His mother lives in New York. The OW lives in Florida. We live in Pennsylvania. OW should not be anywhere NEAR his mom's house unless she flies up there. MIL is keeping an eye on WH to assure he does not leave the house except to come home to me. MIL does not currently want me to visit because she does not want her home disrupted by fighting between WH and me. He is going to her to let her know that we are working through this and has asked me to allow him to confront her and his father alone because he fears that they may judge me or lash out at me. He wants to clear the air and get their permission to bring me for a visit once again.

When WH lied and flew to Florida to see OW, he told everyone he was going to be at his mother's house. I called MIL's house to talk to him and found out he wasn't there, leading me to ping the GPS on his phone. That's when I discovered he was in Florida with OW. MIL found out from me what was going on because she was confused by his lies.

I wanted to speak to WH about mailing the letters before I do it. Perhaps I should mail first, discuss later?

As for our work schedules: We are not wealthy. He works as a night stock boy and I have an office job. We cannot afford daycare and have a child with special needs who needs constant care. Our work schedules are out of necessity. It was his lack of sleep from working full time nights and being the primary care giver to our children that caused most of the problems in our marriage. I acknowledge that. Unfortunately, we do not have the financial means to alter that situation. DD#2, with special needs, is now 5 years old and attends a special school for 1/2 days, providing WH with more sleep opportunities. This has reduced his stress significantly which has opened him up to more communication.

I'm trying here. I really am. To own the truth, most of our problems began when DD#2 was born. I had PPD, she was a difficult baby, and then was diagnosed with Autism 3 years ago. Every day is a blessing and a challenge with her and I have to give WH credit for being her primary care while I work. He's a great father. He just got lost and I'm trying to help him find his way back.

OW is a child care professional who is also the mom of a child with Autism. The EA began because they shared stories and understanding about what was going on with the kids. Their contact was strictly phone/text/Facebook until recently, when he made the trip to Florida to see her. I do not want to expose his medical condition here, but I can assure you there was no sex involved when he went to see her.

We are in therapy for 3 hours a week and I have discussed all of this with the therapist. She believes that WH and I are on the right track for recovery. If I shake things up by hurting someone he cares for, the OW, I could ruin the progress we have already made. I don't want to do that because it took him 2 months to finally decide that he wanted to work on our marriage. He now appears to be completely committed to restoring what we once had. Ruining that progress just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

If I am understanding correctly, he's in detox mode right now. He has ended the EA, removed all evidence of her by destroying letters/photos, given me full access to check up on him (even tho he doesn't want to), and appears to be making a real effort. Yes, he's going to mourn the loss of OW for a bit... but he appears to be handling it well. Why is it wrong to be hopeful about that?

So if everything that appears to be a positive step in the right direction is really just another great big lie, then how do people ever recover? How do marriages survive? How do I separate the truth from lies? How can I know if he has stopped lying? Eventually, trust needs to be rebuilt. Prior to this A, he had always been trustworthy.

Truth is, I have already been divorced once because I had a cheating XH who showed no remorse. At least my WH is sorry, has apologized, and wants to work things out. How can that be BAD???

When you expose her to her husband (are they really getting a divorce? How do you know) and her family, she will be so busy doing damage control that the last thing on her mind will be harassment of you and your family.

And who cares if she's harassing you if what you get is a chance at recovery?

I know it seems like her stalkerish crazy is a turn off and he says he's so mad at her and blah, blah, blah but secretly he might be very turned on at how much she loves him. Look at how far she'll go to prove it!

In other words, reality is very warped right now and you can't count on anything he says to be real. You've got to captain the ship right now and pull him out of his fog. Living in fear that he'll leave you if you get too tough is not right!

He should be begging on his hands and knees for another chance with you. If he's not doing that, he's in the fog.

You need to expose to her family without forewarning him.

Stop being so timid.

The problem is that when people have affairs, it makes them stupid; it's like being drunk and crafty and addicted all at once.

YOU need to do this.

That's why the BS has to do the work of recovery. You keep getting the drunk to drive instead!



While you were at work, right? *sigh* You actually have no idea what he did with those pictures. For all you know they are on a remote back up system.

You should have deleted them yourself or had him do it straight away instead of asking HIM to do it on his terms.


And then there are the plans for the weekend. I am pretty sure that this was HIS idea. Just as the blackmail plan was HIS idea.

FF is totally right:



YOU should be the one setting the rules for recovery!!!!!!

Whenever a WS requests space or separation it is because they know it will be eaiser to contact their AP.

There should be no reason at all for the two of you to separate at such a vulnerable time.

It was his idea wasn't it?




I'm sorry; are you saying three D days and a constant fear of being left because he now has you on a pass/fail test of meeting his needs is BETTER?

Lots of marriages do recover. But not while the WS is driving the bus.

Look at GloveOil's signature. His wife told him in no uncertain terms that if he did it again "he'd be out on his [censored]". And because he IS remorseful, he is proud of her tough stance.

He did not sneer at her and make her feel like a jailer when her heart was broken. For a long while she didn't trust him out of her sight as far as the grocery store and that was fine with him. Her user name was 'Trust Will Come' - but she most certaintly did not hand it out for free as you do and accept very tall tales as you do every day.

He never slept with her? Really?

As a FWH, GloveOil can see quite easily (as can we) that you are constantly being spun fairy tales between each and every D Day.

I have seen the words 'hope' 'hopeful' and 'hopeless' in pretty much every post you've made.

Hope is not a plan. It is a distraction.

Gather up all that hope, fear and hopelessness and toss it in the trash right now.

You don't need hope. All you need is TrustWillCome's determination that you will never be cheated on again. Not one more D Day.

So get to work.

Oh and sack your therapist - he's clearly a charlatan and can't see D Day no 4 on the horizon and cares not if it is there.

I am quite certain WH loves him.

This is how it goes when you forewarn exposure:

WH: "My mean wife is going to blow up all your hard work gaslighting your H. He is going to know the real reason you are divorcing him is me."

OW: "Well I thought you could manage her better than that. How am I supposed to keep my H sweet and get the D deal I want now? I am so upset with you."

WH: "I am warning you aren't I? I am helping. Isn't there anything you can do?"

OW: "Well I will just have to get to everyone first. I will tell them I am being stalked by the crazy wife of an innocent friend. Hopefully they won't listen to her."

A remorseful wayward realises they are a PROVEN liar. They would never ask for 'trust'. They would be keen to prove themselves with verifiable actions. They would not make unbelievable claims like 'I visted her to not sleep with her'. They would gladly take a polygraph. They will make their life an open book to you.

Here is a list of the most common lies addicted waywards tell their BS to keep them quiet. All these lies rely on the BS' willingness to be lied to.



Being lied to by the WS is such a common theme around here that I wrote a thread on the subject because blind trust from the newbies is very tiring and tragic.


Never Take the Word of a Wayward

WH tells me I'm controlling all the time. The therapist wants to work with me on that because WH sees it as a huge problem. I tried to explain that I simply follow my hunches and so far every single hunch has been right.

Honestly, he destroyed the letters and pictures in front of me when I got home from work yesterday. He did not let me burn them, but we did rip them up. OW had doused them with so much perfume he was afraid that burning them would be a bad idea. Stinky lighter fluid.

Yes, the visit to MIL was his idea. He is taking the kids along. He said that he needs to admit some very cruel and painful things about what he has done to both his parents and to his best friend. When the A was discovered, he put all the blame on me and he said he now wants to take ownership with these important people in his life. He said that having me there would be awkward. I am the godmother of his best friend's child and he wants to let the friend know that I am not a threat.

When the A was discovered, he told his family and friends that he was trying to break away from me because I was verbally and physically abusive to our children -- another lie. The family and friends immediately took his side. They do not wish to see or speak to me because they believe I am a monster. He wants to visit them and set the record straight. He does not want me to be there because he thinks it will look insincere. He is taking the kids because my older child can also tell the family that I have not be cruel to her. DD#2 is non-verbal. She doesn't speak. She cannot testify that I'm a good mom.

He says that he feels awful about the lies he has told because they tainted his character and mine. He wants to set the record straight so that I can speak to his family and our friends again... and so I can see my goddaughter again.

I've looked into his eyes. I know that he is both sincere and scared. He has promised that this visit to MIL will last less than 24 hours. He is leaving this afternoon and will be back before lunch tomorrow. He just "needs to do this alone."

Again, I'm I falling for another lie? MIL will not let him use her phone and his phone has been blocked. He has no access to turn off the call block on his phone.

Babs there is no need for a sad face - all you need is a plan.

What you have said here is exactly what I suspected. Your therapist is just a clueless amateur who is trying to appease whoever shouts loudest.

If he knew what he was doing, he would have a PLAN.

I have seen SO MANY recovered marriages on these forums.

Every single one followed a plan of just a few simple steps. All the ones that were false recoveries had missed out at least one step.

They are:

1) Exposure. Everyone (but most especially the other BS) should know about the A. The BS should know how to contact you if they discover contact occurring on their end.

2) NC - which involves an NC LETTER!!! Not a verbal 'farewell sweet love'. To ensure NC contact details must be changed beforehand to prevent any response (Not blocked - CHANGED!)

2) Agreeing to no more nights apart ever or going out without each other - this creates a healthy, integrated lifestyle.

3) Complete transparency - cell phone passwords, finances etc. Transparency should be ENTHUSIASTIC on the part of the WH. No more talk of 'control' and jailers.

4) Changing the conditions which led to the A, no more Opposite Sex friendships, travelling for work or leisure or secret second lives.

5) Complete honesty about the affair<s>, involving proof or passing a polygraph

6) Committing to the MB program for marital recovery which includes Extraordinary Precautions, Just Compensation for the betrayed spouse and rebuilding the romantic love.

That is the BARE minimum situation needed for recovery. Your situation however:

A) Your H doesnt want to do any of these and is very keen about doing the OPPOSITE. He wants time away from you, he wants to protect OW from the fall out of exposure and he is giving you highly unbelievable lies regarding this 'EA' which he expects you to accept on trust

B) Your therapist hasnt addressed any of these BARE MINUMUM requirements for recovery. If you asked him what his plan for recovery was I would expect him to look a bit blank. I would also ask him if he has ever seen a successfully recovered couple (such as the ones who populate these boards) - and how far down the line post therapy he checks up on them. Dr Harley has kept in touch with couples for decades so he can truly vouch for the success of his plan.

I know you are smart Babs.

How smart is it to sit in a room chatting about YOU being controlling (for heavens sake), while you know full well he is still protecting his A?

I am so sorry, but nothing here is hopeful. I say that as someone who has a recovered marriage and has seen hundreds more recover their marriages here using Dr Harley's material. Your problem is not that you are "controlling" but that your husband is having an affair. Every wayward spouse accuses his betrayed spouse of being "controlling" when they interfere with the affair.

We can't help you if you refuse to follow the advice. I am very sorry for your dilemma.

Then why can't you go? I think you are getting some smoke blown your way, here.



This is a terrible, terrible idea aimed at getting you away while he contacts the OW.

I am not at all surprised it was HIS idea.

I can't beleive you have been told to sit at home because of his lies and your poor kids now have to keep this liar in line for you.

Have they been told about the A by the way?




You saw that look before the last D Day too.

I remember my H's 'sincere' assurance that he 'just needed to do this alone'. Exactly those words.

He didn't want me there while he helped a friend out with babysitting. He said he was doing it for me so he could work on his fear of having children.

He also said something about how I couldn't come because us fighting in that home would cause a problem. I dont see how, I wouldn't have fought with him in a child's home. But at the time, I bought it. He loved me, he was just afraid/confused etc. That's what I told myself. I told myself he 'just needed to do this alone'.

It is AMAZING how they say the exact same things, isn't it Babs? Makes it very easy to spot though.

So, he went out to babysit. He put the kids to bed then had his PA with their mother, the OW.

When waywards are missing their addiction, they need space to get a hit. They have to do that ALONE.

This is what waywards do Babs.

Your husband can do this over the phone AFTER you have exposed the affair to his parents. I seriously doubt he is going there anyway. Or he is planning on meeting the OW down there. And you wouldn't be the wiser because you are only going by what he tells you.

There is no need to spend any nights apart. Dr Harley would tell you that spending the night apart is an invitation to an affair. But you already know this.

The scary part here is that you are just ASKING for the affair to continue by "trusting" a liar. You don't understand that your husband has a powerful addiction to the OW and will lie, steal and cheat to get to her. But you believe he is being honest with you.

You will be dealing with this affair for a long time if you don't start exposing it and taking effective steps to stop it.

The longer you put this off, the more entrenched the affair becomes. The more entrenched it becomes, the more likely it is he will leave you. You have been through THREE D-days and are headed for the fourth right now. You are headed towards divorce.

BB, I am telling you that this is hopeless if you won't take action. You need to expose this affair NOW. Stop his trip and stop enabling this affair.

You have enabled this affair almost to the point of no return. And it might be too late now because this has gone on so long that your husband is extremely addicted to the OW.

If you don't wake up and do it soon, you aren't going to have a marriage.

Melody Lane has been on these forums for many years, saved countless marriages and I have never seen her misdiagnose a situation.

If I were you I would sit up and pay attention and thank your lucky stars that such a veteran poster is giving you her time.

Blackraven summed it up for you.



You're scared of him.

So does MiL support you and is keeping him in line or does she hate you and won't allow you to visit?

Or is it both?

Is this another inconsistent fairy tale you have been told?

Is there some kind of problem with you simply calling them up and exposing the A?

Thank you for the advice. I take all of it for what it is and I know you are sincere.

I've always been a strong person... or so I thought. Nothing has ever rocked my life like this before. I've been divorced once and haven't had this much pain. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do and I need to save face for my kids. They don't deserve this.

WH is sleeping right now. When he wakes I will insist that I go with him to MIL or he doesn't go at all. I have just mailed the letters to OW's BH and parents. I did not tell him.

I checked his emails and found that she tried to contact him there. He did not even read the email. He rarely checks his emails. I deleted it and have not told him.

Honesty: Goes both ways, right? Do I tell him that I deleted an email from her?

You're in a state of war situation right now. You don't tell him anything until he has proved his trustworthyness to you. He has a long way to go before then.

What did it say?

hugs to you, BB! We know exactly what you are going through.

I would pick up the phone right now and tell his mother all about the affair. When your husband wakes up tell him you do not agree that he go to his M's house. He needs to stay there with you.


Can you save the email in a safe place? Can you forward it to yourself and then delete it? You are going to need to save the evidence.


NO. Honesty does not go both ways. You should not be honest about anything that is done to protect you from abuse. An affair is at the top of that list.

I would pick up the phone right now and call the OW's husband. Disguise your # using *67 so the OW doesn't see it the caller ID. And/or send a facebook message to the OWH and her parents NOW, telling them about the affair and asking them to call you.

You will have to pay $1 to put a message in their inbox, so be prepared to do that. I would also strart exposing the affair to the OW's facebook contacts using the templates on my exposure thread.

You MUST get ahold of the OW's husband TODAY. Can you do that?

I exposed the A to MIL the day I found out. She has told me that what WH did was terrible and she does not approve. However, she needs to take his side and support him because he is her son and she recognizes that there is a potential that he will pick OW. She has lectured him as recently as Wednesday this week for "stringing two women along" and told him to make a choice and stick with it. He said that he picks me and our family.

MIL and FIL have serious health issues and want to keep peace in their home. They have asked me to not visit because they fear we will fight in front of them.

Good girl.

It's very important exposure is all done at once, not in drips and drabs. What you need to do is get a full exposure plan in place.

Can you read ML's link and get a full plan of who else needs to be exposed to?

You understand that your kids will need to know too, right?

You should also expect him to be horribly and ridiculously angry with you for busting up his A. That's good though, that's what you want.

Lots of people all finding out at once and calling him on it.

I dont want to see you endure another D Day.

Got it - she isnt an ally to the Marriage at all she is merely fence sitting. Poor Babs.

She would definitely allow her son to contact OW I'm afraid.

Her email subject line was "WHY" the message said:
"How could you do this to me? ME! After 15 years of friendship and you choose THIS as an ending? As OUR ending? Why? WHY??? What are you so damn afraid of? You are a coward. I don't deserve this."

Well who would have thunk it? Married man leaves mistress shocker.

However WH would not read it that way.

Can you get an exposure plan in place?

OWH and OW's parents have unlisted phone numbers. I cannot call them. OWH has a FB page, but it appears that he is NEVER on it. That's why I mailed the letters.

OW has blocked me and WH from her FB page, however, I am able to access it from my daughter's account. Unfortunately, her security settings are pretty strong and I cannot see her friend list.

any thoughts?

Yes, do as I said and send the husband and the parents facebook messages [private messages] telling them about the affair. Ask them to call you. Also see if you can any sisters or brothers of the OWH and send them PM's telling them of the affair and asking them to notify the OWH and have him call you.

Can you access the OWH's friend list?

How is your exposure plan coming along?

Also how old are your kids? Exposure will need to be done to them. Particularly in your case. It wasn't lost on me that he wanted to take the kids on this sojourn without you.

Lots of people on these boards have exposed in an age appropraite way that helped their children understand all the confusion going on around them.

Good Morning, Happy Monday.

Exposure plan is in place. I've mailed letters to OWH and parents. I've sent messages on FB for OWH to contact me. I could not find any other family on FB, but I did manange to send messages to a few of OW friends. I could not acess friend lists for OW or OWH, but pulled friend names from replies on her FB posts.

Children: My oldest is 6. She knows that Daddy spent time with his girlfriend and her kids and that it made Mommy very very sad. She knows that he took OW's kids to the zoo and told her Dad, "you should be taking ME to the zoo, Daddy, not someone else!" She also knows that it was wrong of Daddy to do this and he has apologized to her several times and promised to take her to the zoo very soon. Planned trip for next weekend.

Younger daughter: 5 years old, Autism. She is a very bright child, but non-verbal. her special needs make it difficult to discuss things like this. She knows that there is tension in the family and we have reassured her that we love her and that everything will be OK in time. Her stress levels have not been affected, which is good.

We are working with a family therapist for the sake of both children She is working with the girls to cope with the stress in the household and helping us work together as a team to reduce stress in the children and cooperate despite our own stress. This is OUR problem and we need to make sure the kids know it isn't because of them.

BB, you did that perfectly and I want to applaud you for finding creative ways to expose to the OW's facebook friends. A couple of things stand out to me:

1. sending the exposure letter to the OM. OW are notorious for intercepting such letters and are typically on the look out. I would try and CALL him or find some other way to reach him just to make sure he gets the letter. See if you can find out where he works and call or email him there

2. try calling his mother. Look her up in the whitepages.com and call her directly

3. any private message sent on facebook to a non friend will go to their SPAM box if you don't pay $1 to go to the inbox. I would encourage you to send a message to as many of the OW's fb friends as you can and be sure and pay a $1

It is especially critical that you speak to the OWH by phone because if the OW intercepts your letter, she will feed him a line of bull about you. For example, she will tell him that some kook woman down in crapwit, Penn imagines that she is chasing her husband. So when you do get through to him, you will be so thoroughly discredited that he won't even look at your evidence. And keep in mind, he won't WANT to believe you.

So do your best to get the OWH and the parents on the phone. Can you find the OWH parents or sibs? Have you googled them or tried to find them on facebook? They would make sure the OWH got the information!

I actually DO know where OWH works. WH told me he's a manager for Lowes. I'll check phone book for closest one to OW's home. Also, OWH lives with OW's parents. Both letters sent to same place. OW's parents do not work and it should be hard for her to intercept letters. I will try to call OWH at work, great idea!

Will pay the $1. thanks for the tip!

Went to MiL with WH this weekend. He told her about all of his lies and she is now accepting me into her home again. WH grieving but also showing signs of remorse. Actually begged me to stay for the first time since D Day -- also said "I should have been begging all along."

Yay babs!!!!

Love DD6. Love her.

Can you call OWHs workplace?

DD6 is a spitfire!

I will try calling OWH work after I get home from work tonight.

Question:

I realize that WH is in detox mode, trying to kick his addiction... He is being very compliant, has agreed to all of my terms, has apologized, and is begging for forgiveness. I believe I read that the detox part can take 3 weeks to 2 years. WH already appears to be coming around based on the things he is saying and doing.

How do I know that he has really let go of the EA? Are there signs I should be looking for? Or do I just press on with the recovery plan and hope and pray that he is letting go?

Conversation last night: He recognizes that the emotions he felt for her were more of an infatuation and less of love. He believes that he only loved or cared for her as one would a close friend. He admits that he led her to believe that he felt more for her than he actually did because he was getting his emotional needs met by her and did not want that relationship to end. He asked me to stop blaming her because the EA was his fault because he pushed it forward on all levels. I told him that even if he led her on and pressed for an A, she still knew he was married. She still knew it was wrong. She could have run away. He agreed that this is true, but feels such guilt about hurting both OW and me, that he wants to take full blame.

At this point, I have forgiven him for the A. Forgiveness does not mean that I have forgotten or that the pain is gone. It means that I recognize that a mistake was made and that there is no way for him to repay it. I accept my role in the A and agree to make strides to move forward with repairing our marriage.

He has also forgiven me for the emotional distance that I placed between us after the birth of our children. I recognized and apologized for not meeting his emotional needs and am making efforts to fill them once again.

What hasn't happened: I don't think either one of us are ready to forgive ourselves for what we did to the other. I am so mad at myself for not being there for him and for failing to fill his needs. I know that had I filled his emotional needs, he would never have looked for someone else to fill them. He is feeling very guilty about the way he hurt both me and OW. He cannot forgive himself for letting this woman into his life and allowing himself to become emotionally attached to her when she met his needs. Further he cannot forgive himself for hurting me by breaking his wedding promises.

Back to the question: How do I know if his words are sincere? I've known him so long and I thought I knew his heart. How do I know if he has really let go of her and is on the path to recovery? I have been a private investigator... Unless there is a burner phone somewhere that I can't find, he has not had any contact with her.

thoughts?

This is why it is so imporatnt for the betrayed spouse to do the exposure. Waywards are liars and they always spin the truth. Talk from a wayward is utterly meaningless. Remorse and crocodile tears will not save a marriage. What matters are actions. I am not trying to discourage you, but you should not be encouraged by empty talk.

Forgiveness is very inappropriate and is downright dangerous when there has been an affair. Giving inappropriate, unwarranted 'forgivess" to an unrepentant wayward only leads to more neglect and abuse. Please read this article and reconsider that tactic: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?



How do you know that the words of a falling down drunk are sincere? You wait until he has demonstrated sober, trustworthy behavior for months and years. You wait until he stops falling down.

thoughts? [/quote]

The reason your husband had the affair is because he allowed another woman to meet his needs. He has very poor boundaries for a married man. He will have another affair even if you meet his needs 100% if he does not clean up his boundaries.

Be prepared to face another affair in your marriage if his boundaries are not cleaned up. Even if you meet his needs perfectly!

I understand that now. He had told his mother quite a few lies about me. The air is clear now. I had originally exposed the A to her, but he followed it up with details of me being an abusive wife/mom. He has now admitted to her that I was in no way abusive and that he was feeling vindictive when he said those things. As I said, I'm now welcome in her home again.

Oh, and also for the record: He is writing a NC letter today.

I follow all the advice that you have given me and I really do appreciate it. I am having difficulty with the harsh, no forgiveness/mercy type stance. Is it really so impossible to believe that my husband found himself in a one time short lived lapse in judgement? What he thought started innocent quickly became an EA.

No one here seems to believe that it was ONLY an EA. No one here seems to believe that he is truly remorseful. No one here seems to believe that he really did end the EA on his own. I realize there are a lot of WS out there who are repeat offenders, liars, those who just want to cheat... but is it really so hard to believe that my WH simply got lost for a few months and just needed some help finding his way back?

Had I done the same to him, how would I expect to be treated? How would I want to continue? I would at the very least want to be forgiven.

It is not harsh to forgo unwarranted forgiveness when it is in your husbands best interest to be given an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness by giving you just compensation. What is harsh is having an affair.

Yes, we know all this. We know why and how the affair started. However, we also know how to recover your marriage so when we see you making serious mistakes, we are going to say something. It is a serious mistake to offer up unwarranted "forgiveness" when it would be in your best interest AND ESPECIALLY HIS to give you just compensation. Forgiveness is simply not warranted.


That describes about 99% of all cheaters except that your husband is still lying about the physical part of his affair. That cerainly does not demonstrate remorse.


But that would not in your best interest if you had done nothing to warrant it. It would hurt you.

And I don't think you want to hurt your husband, do you?

Did oyu read the article?

In 1997/1998, I was a just a college kid. I lived off campus in a house with friends... including a married couple. In time, I became the OW.

I know how it feels to be the OW. I know how it feels to wish that the WH would leave the BW to be with me. I know how hard it was to see WH sharing intimate moments with the BW who had no idea that I was in her WH's arms when she was at work. I lived in the same house with them. It doesn't get worse that that. Does it?

As the OW, I was the one who finally blew the whistle and ended the EA and PA. I was in love with the WH, but he didn't love me enough to leave the BW. BW eventually found out, well after the PA was over, but there was no exposure. No one knew except the three of us.

All I ever wanted was for the BW to forgive me. I told the WH to put all the blame on me to save his marriage. After all, it didn't matter if she hated me. What mattered was that they worked it out. When I moved out of their home, she was pregnant.

I often wonder if this is karma for what I did when I was young and stupid.

Part of me wants to reach out to the OW in my WH's life and tell her what I went through all those years ago. I want to shake her and tell her that she will NEVER win if she keeps going for married guys.

All I wanted was to be forgiven so I could move forward with my life. That was 15 years ago. I still just want to be forgiven.

Why is it wrong for me to forgive my husband? I don't want to forget. I just want to forgive.

That is not in your husband's best interest. Believe me, I have done horrible things in my life. But crying big crocodile tears did not help my grief and guilt. MAKING AMENDS to my victims did. Making amends restored my relationship and made me feel like i had justly compensated my victims for my crime.

Don't deny your husband that opportunity. And most of all, don't deny that chance for your marriage and your children. Feeling remorse and passing out unwarranted, empty forgiveness will not right that wrong. It will not save your marriage and it will not turn your husband back into a good man.

Being "forgiven" does not make a person feel good. Making amends and taking steps to become a decent person DOES.

here

Don't get hung up on the word "forgive". ML posted what "forgiveness" means. It means you accept the deficiency that your husband created and that deficiency will continue to exist, forever. You don't want to do that. By accepting his just compensation you will likely have the same feelings you associate with forgiveness.

Other than that, your H really has to shore up his boundaries around women. You may take solace in the fact that this was only an EA (they do exist but are rare) and it was his first offense, but if you don't protect your M from another affair, it can happen again. Sadly, even if you meet his emotional needs. It happened to me. You don't need to go Attila the Hun on him, but he needs to provide you with a safe marriage.

I don't recall, have you considered a polygraph? They are easy and not too expensive ($400). If your H is being truthful, he should jump at the chance to clear any suspicions you have. I told my W, �I know your heart and trust what you have told me, but I feel this is something I need to close this horrible chapter of our life.� She was more than willing.

I have done a lot of reading on this site and others. I joined this site because I thought I could get some really good emotional support and advice.

Last night, I came to a conclusion that I wanted to share.

All men are NOT created equal.

You will probably call me naive or stupid or whatever you want to call me, but I do not believe that my husband is the typical cheater/adulterer/abuser as painted by many of you.

I believe that many of you are clouded by misjudgements of the worst kinds of WS out there. Every situation is unique and all BS have a story to tell. To follow the logic presented to me here, all men ARE created equal and every WS is the same. I just can't belive that.

Since my children were born and one was diagnosed with special needs, my husband encountered an enormous amount of stress. He was the primary care giver for our children while I worked days. He worked full time nights. Most days he got 2-3 hours of sleep MAX. The stress got to him and he began to shut me out. This created a depression in me and I began to shut him out as well. Prior to his emotional affair, we were merely shells of the people we once were.

Having a special needs child makes you abandon yourself and give everything to the child. That's exactly what we both did. We both became depressed, even tho we didn't show it to the kids and forgot to be the support system that each other needed.

When an old friend popped back into his life, my husband enjoyed the banter and conversation. It was an escape from his stress and reality. Unfortunately, the OW was in love with him. She had been for a long time and had her sights set on making him love her. She lives more than 24 hours away by car, 3 hours by flight. They were not in physical contact with each other. When she professed her love for him, he said, "yeah, love you, too." because he wanted to keep the conversations going. He admits that he wrongfully encouraged her affections because her words stroked his ego and made him feel good at a time when his wife (me) was not doing that for him.

He never loved her as more than a friend. When he finally did make the trip to visit her, he was experiencing a medical condition that would prevent him from having any sexual contact with her. He admits to kissing her, but that is all. I believe him because I personally saw the medical condition before and after his trip. That was the ONLY time they connected in person. Further, he was caught in his trip by me early on and it cut the trip short. You are all skeptical about his affair but I truly believe that there was no sex involved.

Upone his return home, he thought our marriage was over. When he learned that I wanted him to stay and work things out, he was happy, but still had trouble ending the EA. It was because he did not want to hurt her after all the lies he told her.

D Days. He ended the relationship with her a few times. Each time he tried, she came back with suicide threats, faked car accidents, and words of manipulation. These words upset him and drew him back twice. On the third attempt to end the relationship, he blocked all phone numbers to keep her from contacting us. She resorted to harassment of his family and mine. We took measures to prevent that by means of blackmail... threats to expose the affair to her loved ones. This stopped the harassment and we have not heard a word from her since. WH also destroyed all remnants of their relationship in front of my eyes... the letters, photos, and gifts.

This affair is different because there was no way a physical affair could have been conducted. You can believe I am naive, but I would know if he visited her and there is no way she could have come here without my knowledge. If I was not with him, he was with my kids and they would tell me. It's that easy. Further, I know my husband. I know his ways, I know his guilty conscience, I know how BAD he is at covering his tracks. It was EASY for me to dig up the details of this EA as it was unfolding.

He is truly sorry. He has taken steps to make ammends. He is actively working on making things right. I stand by my earlier claim that we are in recovery mode because I have forgiven him and I'm not going to take that forgiveness back... even if you all think I should. My God forgave me for the darkest of my sins in my life and I need to live for HIM as an example of his grace and mercy. I WILL forgive and have forgiven. That particular piece of the puzzle is non-negotiable for me.

At this point, I have had many many many many discussions with my WH. I know he is sincerely sorry for what he has done. I know his heart. I know that this is out of character for him. I know that he is going through detox from this short lived addiction. I have seen his mood changes but the constant that has not changed is his desire to to what is right by me and our children. He has not contacted the OW. He will not contact her again. I have confidence in that. He has deleted his email account, his FB page, and has changed phone numbers for his cell and home. He has put in a request with his employer that he cannot receive phone calls at work. I believe that these measures will aid him in his effort to have zero contact with OW.

We are in marriage counceling through a licensend Rev. from my church and have family counceling for us and the kids as we recover. We have an action plan in place to recover and rebuild the marriage. I am pleased with our progress.

I know he loves me. I love him. I know we have a lot of work to do. I know that he will not do this again, I can tell.

I know you will all think I am being weak. I know you think I'm being naive. I know you don't agree with my course of action. But I'm a "stand by your man" kind of gal. I don't want to scare him or chase him away. I want him to stay. He wants to stay. I can't do this alone. I know that. But that's why I have HIM. We are going to get through this together.

I know you don't think we will succeed. But I know we will. I have faith. We will be a success story. I know that.

Indeed my definition of forgiveness is different. To me, forgiveness means I will not dwell on the mistakes that have been made, but move forward. I recognize that there is NO WAY for him to fully repay me for his actions. He screwed up. BIG TIME. He knows it. He wants to move forward. I feel like I have gotten all of the details about the EA that I needed and that I am ready to move forward. He has let go of the EA, forgives me for my role in his unhappiness, and is ready to move forward as well.
Forgiveness, to me, does not mean forgetting or failing to put a plan in action. WH has acknowledged that boundaries must be put in place. We have done that. Female friends are OFF LIMITS aside from a few pre-approved friendships. In other words, he can remain friends with our MUTUAL friends who are female, but cannot carry out those friendships without me involved. Those female friends are in on the agreement and know that communication between them without my participation is off limits. I must be present. Phone records, emails, everything will be monitored closely. His FB page has been turned off. We have set hard limits that must be followed.
I believe that there has been sufficient closure to his relationship with the OW. We are ready to move on. Why is it that no one seems to think we are on this forum? My family, his family, and our therapists all seem to think that we are on the right track to recovery.
Is it wrong to love him unconditionally? I cannot share him. He knows that any further transgressions will result in PLAN B. So, why does it seem that no one wants me to move forward into recovery/rebuilding?

Thanks BB. I just want you to know that you just described about 99% of wayward spouses. Your husband is the rule, not the exception. Most people who have affairs are good people who, because of life's problems and poor boundaries, find themselves right smack in the middle of a torrid addiction to an affair partner. That is what happened to your husband. We would all agree he is a good guy and we are giving advice on that basis.

Be assured we are not comparing your husband to the "worst. " The "worst would be the ones who are out looking for it and/or the serial cheaters. They are the vast minority and I would place them at under 5%.

We believe you when you say your husband is a good guy. We want to help you help him be a good guy again by driving this affair out of your lives.

As far as "clouded judgment," who would you say is the least objective person on this thread? The rest of us are not hampered with the extreme emotions that you are experiencing. It is only natural that such a traumatic event would affect your emotions.

In short, we want you to have a great marriage like we have.

"Is it wrong to love him unconditionally? I cannot share him. He knows that any further transgressions will result in PLAN B. So, why does it seem that no one wants me to move forward into recovery/rebuilding?"

But if you love him "unconditionally" then you would tolerate any and all abuse. You would not go to PLan B.

We are trying to guide you into recovery. Unconditional love and unwarranted forgiveness will not bring you recovery, it will bring you more neglect and abuse.

Would you like to recover your marriage?

Some good food for thought here:

What�s Wrong with Unconditional Love
by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.


The Today Show on NBC has been airing a wedding feature lately where a couple has all of their wedding expenses covered�if they�re willing to let all of the wedding preparations, and the wedding itself, be televised. I happened to watch one of the weddings yesterday, and I noticed something that I�ve seen in most weddings: The bride and groom promised to love each other unconditionally.

Before I launch into an analysis of this common promise, and highly promoted goal for marriage, let me take you back to the wedding vows that my wife, Joyce, and I were to recite to each other: �I promise to love you in joy and in sorrow, plenty and want, sickness and health, as long as we both shall live.� I remembered it correctly when it was my turn. But Joyce didn�t. Instead, she said, �I promise to love you in joy and in plenty, in health and in wealth as long as we both shall live.� She claimed that It was an honest mistake, but it sure has kept me on my toes. Any downturn in fortune, and I�m not sure what she�ll do.

But the vows that I made to Joyce were not for unconditional love. My vows were that I would care for her regardless of conditions beyond our control. For example, I didn�t promise to love and care for her if she divorced me. And that would have been only one of a host of decisions by her that would have ended my commitment, as it should be.

So let me explain to you what unconditional love in marriage is, and then we�ll see whether or not it makes any sense to promise such a thing at a wedding. Let�s begin by taking the phrase apart, looking at each word critically.

�Unconditional� means that there are no prerequisites or contingencies to the promise. The promise of love is to be made regardless of all circumstances, including what the other person chooses to do. There should be no confusion regarding its meaning.

�Love,� however, is a different matter, and I�ve seen many different ways to define it. I define love as applied to marriage in two ways: (1) romantic love which is the feeling of incredible attraction to someone and (2) caring love which is meeting someone�s needs. When you�re in love, you feel something, and when you care, you do something.

I have specifically eliminated a third definition of love that is widely expressed: Wishing someone the best in life. When someone says �I love everyone,� that�s usually what they mean. And that kind of love can reasonably be given unconditionally. Personally, I want everyone to be happy, and no one to suffer regardless of what they�ve done to me or others. If that�s what�s meant by unconditional love at a wedding, I have no problem with it.

But in that context, the wedding vow could be offered to the audience as well as the bride and groom. Using this meaning of love at a wedding, doesn�t make much sense because it doesn�t offer a unique promise.

My definitions of love makes the spouse very unique, but the promise itself very conditional. If I promise to be incredibly attracted to Joyce, and to meet her emotional needs for the rest of our lives together, it doesn�t make sense if there are no conditions attached.

Romantic love, my first definition of love, is created when someone makes massive Love Bank deposits by meeting important emotional needs. When an account is high enough to breach the romantic love threshold, a feeling of incredible attraction is reached. If those deposits continue, and withdrawals don�t threaten to reduce the balance significantly, romantic love is experienced indefinitely. I�ve been in love with Joyce for the entire 46 years that we�ve been married because she�s kept her account in the stratosphere.

If I had promised to be in love with Joyce unconditionally, I would have failed to understand how romantic love is created and destroyed. It�s not what I do that causes me to be in love with Joyce�it�s what she does. So I can only promise to be in love with her if she meets my important emotional needs, and avoids hurting me. I have nothing to do with it, except to give her an opportunity to make those deposits.

My second definition of love, caring love, makes unconditional love seem possible. Technically, I could try to meet my wife�s emotional needs without condition. But could I do it indefinitely, and would it be a good idea?

Let�s take a few examples. Suppose a wife were to have an affair, divorce her husband, and marry her lover. Should her ex-husband continue supporting her financially if they had no children together? Should he provide the same support that he would if they were married? Should he be there to help her through life�s struggles? Some who believe in unconditional love feel that he should.

Or, suppose a husband sexually molested their children and ended up in prison. Should his wife continue to meet his emotional needs during conjugal visits? Some who believe in unconditional love think that she should.

What if a husband were to beat his wife senseless in a fit of drunken rage? Should she continue to meet his emotional needs? I once counseled a couple where the husband tried to kill his wife three times. After his last effort he buried her in a shallow grave because he thought she was dead. But she managed to recover, dig herself free, and crawl for help. Should she give him another chance? Should she meet his emotional needs for the rest of his life? The elders of her church thought she should because they believed in unconditional love. After I encouraged her to divorce her husband, they never referred anyone to me again.

I believe that a couple in a marital relationship should meet each other�s important emotional needs, and avoid hurting each other. That should be their promise to each other on the day of their wedding. If they keep their promise, they�ll be in love with each other throughout their marriage, just like Joyce and me. But if one violates that commitment, should the other be held to it?

I�ve heard almost every argument in favor of unconditional love, and I�ve found that the argument that is the most difficult for me to refute is religious. While this argument has been made by advocates of many different religions, I�ll focus on the Christian argument because that�s the faith that I endorse.

The argument goes something like this: We should love our spouses unconditionally because Jesus Christ loves us unconditionally. Even if it�s not safe or practical to do so (as with infidelity, physical abuse, or divorce) we should love unconditionally out of obedience to God. While I certainly encourage being in obedience to God, I can�t find any text from the Christian Bible that suggests that conclusion.

The phrase, �unconditional love� is found nowhere in Scripture. We read �For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life� (John 3:16). Those who encourage us to love unconditionally take this to mean that God loves us all unconditionally. But if that�s true, it must be my third meaning of the word, love�he wishes us the best in life. That�s because the verse goes on to explain that we must do something to save ourselves. According to this verse, we must meet his conditions to be saved. Specifically, we must believe in Jesus Christ. Since the vast majority of the human race does not believe in Jesus, we must assume from this verse and others that while God may love the world and would like them to be saved, most of humanity will not meet the conditions. A faith in Jesus Christ is required.

The concept of salvation itself is expressed in many different ways in various texts, but it always comes with a condition. It�s never suggested that salvation comes with no strings attached. As one example, �If you confess with your mouth, �Jesus is Lord,� and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved� (Romans 10:9). And making Christ lord of your life is not a trivial condition.

Just as our relationship with God is bilateral, where we must both fulfill our commitment for the relationship to function, our marital relationship is also bilateral. A successful marriage is one where both husband and wife care for each other by meeting each other�s important emotional needs, and avoid hurting each other.

So if there�s no religious reason to give or receive unconditional love in marriage, we�re left with practical reasons. And I know of none. If Joyce were to tell me that she loves me unconditionally, and were to mean by that that she�ll meet my emotional needs regardless of how I treat her, I wouldn�t be very motivated to treat her with utmost care. I could get away with anything, knowing that she�d be there to pick up the pieces. There are many that I counsel that expect to be cared for unconditionally after an affair, abuse, and even attempted murder. After all, it was promised at the time of their wedding.

My job as a marriage counselor is to encourage both spouses to meet each other�s emotional needs, and avoid hurting each other. When they follow my advice, they fall in love and stay in love. But one spouse can�t do the job alone. They must work together to build a successful marriage. Neither should promise unconditional love because a great marriage is a joint effort with many conditions.

Since this is such a hot topic, I welcome your comments and questions. I may continue discussing this issue in this newsletter if there�s enough interest. Please send your comments to me at: ideas@marriagebuilders.com

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

**EDIT**

So, don't take it personal that you aren't getting the help you think you need. I assure you, you are getting the help you actually need.

We just want to see you succeed in taking full measure to protect your marriage from another affair or from the affair going underground. Please read this thread False Recovery - Voices of Experience , many people post about what happens when corners are cut, sins are unjustly forgiven, and hope is high.

~RQ

"Here's the thing. This isn't just a marriage building forum. Posters are REQUIRED to give advice and counsel based completely on Dr. Harley's books and teachings"

What in the world do you mean??? I am required to do no such thing! I am a volunteer here. I help people with MB concepts ONLY because it works. IT IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS.

I have been here for 12 years ONLY because I know it works when you don't cut corners. The people who cut corners end up in false recoveries. I am In a happy recovered marriage ONLY because I followed the program.

Don't insult me by saying I am only posting MB concepts because I am forced to. I am NOT forced to post anything.

As for the polygraph: WH actually offered to get a polygraph before I could even suggest it. He wants to do all he can to make things right.

Melodylane, I think MM is referring to the mods' note "that the purpose of our board is to assist posters with Marriage Builders concepts, it is not to mislead others with personal philosophies. If you can help in this regard, feel free to post. Otherwise, please refrain from posting."

Not anything personal towards you.

Just FYI that waywards will appear very willing to take a poly - in the hopes that you won't follow through. My ex did this. I didn't follow through. Dday in 2011, he again appeared very willing to do this. When I handed him the questions and told him it was booked, it was a different story.

So what I am saying is, the willingness doesn't mean much. You have to go follow through with the poly. Ok? Trust me on this.

x2!

Some WSs will still appear willing after it has been booked and the Qs are handed over. They will trickle truth you and swear on a stack of bibles that you NOW have the entire truth and again hope you won't follow through. I have seen this many times on the forums. Don't back down, BB.

Agree x 100.

Many BSs have a horrible blind spot when it comes to their WS. They really don't want to believe their spouse is just like any other WS and focus on details that don't really change the big picture.

The problem is that BSs who have this blind spot are the ones who also end up cutting corners when it comes to affair-proofing the M. We see it time and again here. Nobody wants to see you end up in a FR. That hurts MORE than the original A does and decreases the chances that you will be able to turn things around. OK?

Hang in there, BB.

I'm sorry... what is "FR?"

"false recovery"

False recovery - in that link I posted

Absolutely. I believe in the concepts of Dr. Harley. It seems like some people just want to be supported in whatever idea they come up with (I have the T-shirt). That's not what MB is about. It's about helping people follow through on the tried (and true) concepts of Dr. Harley's experience and research.

Really, trust her on this. Best decision of my life. I can actually sleep knowing that I know the facts of MY life. You will get a different story every day leading to the poly. Follow through. If he is as open as you think (and I hope he is), it will just be another "day at the office". If you get any indication that he regrets his decision to follow though ("I can't believe you don't trust me"), you know what you're dealing with. Otherwise, the poly will just confirm what you thought you knew (like in my case). But you'll sleep better.

Dr Harley says this is very foolish. If you want to teach someone how to look after money, you don't 'forgive' a huge debt and offer more cash. You get them to earn some self respect, pay you what is owed, and THEN you forgive for the original offence.

Your WH is still talking about how much he wants to protect OW from any blame and you are forgiving? Covering up for his whore. That is sick. He is still foggy and has a loooong way to go.

Just Divorce now if this is going to be a forgiveness fest lining up a FR.



I'd agree with this, its a very typical A caused by poor boundaries. The trap any good person could fall into.

This WH is by no means a lost cause, I could easily foresee him being a full on MBer once out of the fog.

He isn't one of the serial cheats who love the lifestyle and are dead set on staying in it.

But he will NEVER get through remorse if you stand in his way of earning forgiveness like this.

Take the polygraph. Right now, WH is quite clearly a liar, minimising his shame and sticking to his guns on this (very foolish) lie. He is too scared to pay you back here with truth. You should stand firm on a polygraph and get him out of this habit of lies and into a recovered marriage.

Even if he HAS given you complete truth already, this will still be a remorseful action for him to earn forgiveness with. It clears the air and expels doubts if you give him a chance to prove it.

Blank, blind forgiveness is patronising and actively hinders his chances to make amends to you like a man.

A remorseful man ALWAYS wants a chance to prove he is a truthful man.

I thought I'd let you know that I have an autistic child. I spend many nights taking care of my kids as my wife is in school. I am the only one with a job. I go to school to finish up a second masters. I get maybe 4 hours a sleep a night most nights.

If I drove that far off a distance to meet s woman, it would be to have sexual conduct for my selfish pleasure. There is nothing more to read into this or to provide excuses or reasonings fo. Your husband is the same. And this is typical, not even close to worst case scenario

That is a very TYPICAL affair, BB. In fact I have never seen an A where that did not happen. It is not unusual at all for one person to lie like this and 'use' the OP to keep the flirting going.

One WW felt sick at the idea of having sex with OM but she was addicted to the needs he met. He even blackmailed her in a wayward sense, as she knew if she didn't sleep with him, he would stop meeting the needs she had become addicted to.

Do you think the OW in your WH's A never demanded physical contact? That she would have continued meeting his needs if he rejected her physically? Do you think he was allowed to reject her physically in the A without punishment?

I dont think so and I think your H is holding on to a lie here.

In the example of the WW above, obviously the BH did not take her word for her lack of desire for OM, he had her take a polygraph. She passed with flying colours as a few days prior she told him some extra lies she had held on to to 'avoid hurting' her BH.

The extra lies were not pleasant as the OM was a depraved piece of work. After the A was bust up and exposed he went on to abuse a teenage girl.

The WW in my example went on to do great though. After the polygraph she became a zealot about Radical Honesty and defending boundaries around members of the OS. She is one of the most remorseful waywards I have ever seen.

Yes. Dr Harley has written an entire article on the damaging effects of unconditional love. You require care, and faithfulness. Those things are conditions. And there are conditions for recovery that must be met. NC, proven truth, Just Compensation for the BS.



That quite simply is not true. If you were in a coma and were not meeting any needs at all he should still know how to be faithful.

Needs meeting has nothing to do with an affair. If a man admires me and makes me laugh, it is STILL pleasant even if I have a spouse doing the same things at home.

In fact it is even more of a rush of brain chemicals if two people love you. The problem is people think they can flirt, enjoy it and use self control to stop it going any further, but they can't. Good people fall into this trap all the time.


Polygraph.

The operative word here is "selfish". All affairs are an act of selfishness. I can see, KT, that you are very busy, but I doubt lack of time changes anybody's vulnerability to selfish motivations. The only reasons for any affair would be based in pure selfishness, regardless of convenience or emotional entanglements.

It has been many years since my autistic son was your son's age. I am his primary caregiver nowadays. While it's not a job I would have sought, it has it's rewards. Hang in there. It's worth it.

I agree with you; it doesn't take much analysis to understand the motivations of an affair.

Blond, you not meeting his needs is not why he had an affair. It is because he chose to and he nothave appropriate boundaries. AffaAffairs have happened when a spouse is meeting emotional needs. It comes down to having boundaries and not engaging in inappropriate behavior and dialog

I have a 4 year old with autism as well. It has been a terrible strain on us but we are getting through it (it is a fairly recent diagnosis although of course, we've struggled with him since he was born).

All the more reason Blndbabz that you should be demanding a polygraph, get the TRUTH out there, and then use that as your foundation for recovery. You need a stable home and a rock solid foundation to start with because having a child with special needs is harder. Blindness has led you to this point already many times.

I will be following thru with the poly. I have a friend who works for the local police force, he has pulled some strings and the poly will be free.

I'd write up a list of questions you want answering (dont be limited by the ones which will ACTUALLY get used in a real poly for now). Most certainly nail down EXACTLY what physical contact happened.

I'd tell WH he has a couple of days to answer all questions, truthfully and in full. Tell him you will expect him to pass a poly very soon to prove his answers so you expect him to hold nothing back.

This is where it gets rocky, but that's OK. He may start to hem and haw and give half truths which is painful. He may tell you some new truths, which is also painful - but good.

Breaking out of wayward habits is painful for many, so be prepared for anything.

BB, have you told him this yet? The reaction to this request is usually quite interesting but we can help you navigate this rocky road.

My WH only met up with the OW once. She is also married and lives quite a distance away. WH had a medical issue -- Ok, I'll say it -- He had a gigantic infected bleeding hemorroid -- caused by stress -- which prevented him from performing any sexual acts. I helped him care for it both before and after he left on his trip to see her and know that there is no way he could have performed any act with that amount of pain and discomfort. I know what you're thinking -- ORAL. Nope. No Oral. he's too vain -- Wouldn't let her see his areas with such a large problem on his hind quarters. I also spoke to OW. She did not want a physical relationship with him until he made the committment to leave me. He wouldn't do that for her so she refused to put out in any way. They only shared a few short kisses at the airport. I completely believe this.

I think it is also important to point out that I caught the A very early on. They began talking mid June and I intercepted the phone bill at the end of July. The messages of love and affection had only just begun a week or two prior to my discovery of the A. OW is also married, and there was a lot of guilt for both of them. I honestly believe that I found out just in time to squash things before they became physical.
I�m not stupid. I know that if I had not found out about it, the EA would have escalated to a PA. WH has also admitted this. He told me that he would not have made the trip to Florida to see OW if he thought they were going to escalate the EA to a PA. He said he wasn�t ready to take that step. However, upon seeing her face to face for the first time and seeing the way she looked at him, he admitted that if he did not have his medical issue, he probably would have tried to convince her to do �at least something physical.�

Yes. He knows. He said he still wants to do it. He said he wants to clear the air and that everything he has told me is the truth. He also said he wants me to take one, too... "because I have a few questions for you!" (spoken with a sly grin and a wink)

Just so you know, BB, none of the reasons you give here are credible to an objective observer. But, a polygraph will settle that question.

Have you scheduled the test yet?

That's great! When do you have it scheduled? The typical reaction of a WS to a polygraph goes like this:

1. "sure I will!"
[they readily agree initially in the hopes that this will reassure you enough to drop it]

2. When that doesn't work, they resort to mild threats: "if you distrust me so much that you would require a polygraph then we shouldn't be married!! A good marriage is built on trust and if you don't trust me, this is hopeless!!" [demand for unwarranted trust]

3. When that doesn't work, they make a "confession" that usually consists of a few little crumbs. The hope is that if you believe you have the "truth" you will cancel the polygraph - it is almost ALWAYS the partial truth and more comes out on polygraph day

4. when that doesn't work there are usually some threats to move out coupled with rants, raves, crocodile tears

5. When that doesn't work, they sing like a canary all the way to the DOOR of the polygraph tester's office

If the BS can withstand all this, they usually end up with all the truth by the PS is done!

BB, were you able to reach the OW's husband and parents?

It is not scheduled yet, waiting to hear back from the guy who works the machine. I hope to have it scheduled for the next week or so.

I did give him questions that I want answered, tho.

1. Were you in love with OW?
2. Did you have sex with OW?
3. Did you have any other sexual contact with OW aside from the kissing you already admitted to?
4. Have you had any other EAs while we were married?
5. Have you had any other PAs while we were married?
6. Is the A with OW really over now?

As for Exposure Plan -- I have not been successful locating the Lowes where OWH works. I think he may have put a request in to have calles blocked because I have tried several stores now. I anticipate the letters should hit florida today.... so we will see if I get a phone call from him or the parents.

I have not had any replies to the FB messages I sent out. I really did not expect them, tho. I did notice that OW has not posted a single thing to FB since WH ended the A. .. this is out of the ordinary for her, as she was one of those who checked in EVERYWHERE and posted messages very frequently � 5-10 per day. I�m not sure what that�s all about. Depression maybe?


New Question!!!

Should I contact OW? Or keep my distance? I had promised WH that I would not call her, but he has since told me that he is OK with it. He said that he has nothing to hide, but fears that my contacting her will re-open wounds that he is trying to heal� for both of us. What are your thoughts?

Did you pay $1 to get them placed in their inboxes? If you don't do that, they put them in their "other" box which most people don't even know about. In order to do this, the messages have to be sent on a PC, versus a tablet or phone. You can even tell if they have been read.



How would he know that she is ok with it? That makes me extremely suspicious. And tells me they have colluded to get their stories lined up.

Agree. This is a

I think you guys misread what her H said.

If i interpret the comment correctly, the H said that HE is okay with his BW contacting the OW if that is what his BW needs to do.

LTL

Correct. WH is OK with me talking to OW if it will make me feel better, but he does not believe it will. He believes that OW will be hostile and tell lies about the A in attempt to ruin any efforts to restore our marriage. Prior to changing our home phone number, OW called many times and left me many messages encouraging me to contact her to "get the real truth about the affair." WH said he had no idea what she could disclose that had not already been disclosed. We decided that I would not call her at that time.

Since then, I have been tempted to call her out of curiosity. What does she want to say to me?

Polygraph Testing

When I was the OW, the BW called me and asked to meet with me. I answered all her questions about the affair.

Turns out, her husband had lied to her about many of the details and had encouraged her not to talk to me or my husband because "I would lie to try to break them apart" or "stir up trouble".

She reported to me that even after over a year of NC , he still insisted I was lying about the facts. He was (and probably still is ) gaslighting her.

I have the feeling from your posts that your husband is doing the same thing.

Sounds like gaslighting to me too. You should talk to OW and get that polygraph. Neither will make you feel better because there will be additional truths you have to deal with. But in time you may.

Do you think it's opening up a whole new can of worms to talk to her tho? WH wants to move forward, fix what is broken... Do I really need MORE facts than I have already, or than will come out during the poly? The truth is, when I have more facts, I can paint a bigger picture and actually visualize the two of them together. I don't know if I WANT to do that. ya know?

Another website I've visited compares affairs to jigsaw puzzles. Each fact and detail is another piece of the puzzle. The WS knows what the whole picture looks like and holds all the pieces to the puzzle. He gives some pieces to the BS, others to the OW, and still others to friends, family, and therapists. No one can see the whole picture except for the WS. The BS is given puzzle pieces in a trickle fashion, one or two, here and there, and ends up BEGGING for more pieces in a desperate attempt to see the picture as a whole. Once we see enough of the picture, we can make deductions about what happened, but the missing bits might hold the key to unlocking the puzzle.

I shared this analogy with my WH. Since then, he has openend up and offered me more puzzle pieces. For our anniversary on Oct. 12, I bought us couple necklaces that are shaped like puzzle pieces. When they lock together, the picture on the pieces form a heart. We wear them to remind each other to be open and share as many pieces as possible.

I'm happy to report that I can see the fog lifting from him as he is volunteering more and more information. He had been a lump on the sofa for about a week, but is now less depressed and has resumed his normal daily activities. He is playing with the kids more, his stress levels are reduced, and his angry outbursts have decreased. I know we still have a long way to go in this detox mode... but I can tell he's getting there. He called me from work last night and told me he was calling because he was tempted to call her and asked if I was willing to chat for a while until the temptation passed.

For those of you who have seen and heard all from WS's, can you evaluate some of the things he has been saying for me? My heart wants to believe him and that his words are sincere, but as you know, my judgment may be clouded with my desire for things to get back on track.

He told me last night that while he cared for the OW and believed he loved her for a time, he is coming to realize that she is not the type of person he would have wanted to be in a long term relationship with. He said that there are personality types that a are compatable with a person for friendships and other personality types that are compatable for long term loving relationships. He enjoyed the banter and conversations he had with her because they were compatable as friends. When she began the love languages, he was put off, but like a drug and a desire for the friendship compatability, he kept going back for another "hit," so to speak. As time passed, the humorous conversations decreased and the love languages increased. As an addict, he allowed the contact to increase in hopes that it would increase the friendship portion back to its previous state... but it did not happen.

After I discovered the A and things became more strained at home, WH says he reached out to OW even more for the friendly escape he once had. He was confronted with a woman who acted much like a jilted BS. She became jealous, began fabricating information and situations to increase his contact with her (faked 2 car accidents, said she was going to kill herself, etc.), and began to tell him lies about me -- that I was sending her physical threats through facebook. WH tells me his patience was running out and when I presented him with the ultimatum, it was an easy decision to make because the OW behavior was upsetting me. As of last night, WH told me that he believes that even without the ultimatum, he would have ended the EA within a month or so on his own. By the end, the humor and friendship had been replaced by obsessive love language and behaviors that he describes as "crazed." I have to agree because she began to stalk our families and harass us.

So the question, again, is for an evaluation of his words. Do you think he is being sincere? I think he is... Do you think he's just trying to make me feel better? I have thought his words to be sincere before only to have it pointed out to me that he was trying to manipulate me. What are your thoughts?

There is a saying that goes:

Believe nothing that a wayward says and only half of what they do.

Waywards can think they are being sincere.... at that moment, but the draw to the addictive highs derived from Any contact withe their affair partner will always be present.

Fog babble when he told you he felt he was going to consider giving up the affair partner in 1-2 months. The routine fix would still have been feeding the affair addiction.

I like that it seems he is trying, but get better guidance from the vets to assist inensuring you are not heading towards a FR, (False Recovery).

LTL

It's likely a little of both. There's indication that he's being sincere but he's also painting a pretty rosy picture for you. In a way maybe he is trying to "convince himself" of the things he is saying. As they come out of the fog, their fantasy falls apart and the words become more obviously sincere. Actions are what you should be concerned with. Words don't mean much right now. On the other hand, if he was saying things like "I never loved her" that's a red flag. So, you got that going for you.

And I picked up what LTL saw:

That's still pretty foggy...claiming he would have backed out on his own in 1-2 months. More likely, his medical condition would be cleared and you would have a full blown PA on your hands.

Hi BB,

I am glad to read that you will be having a polygraph done. Until that time, I wouldn't engage WH in discussion about the affair details. If he volunteers information, I would make mental notes of what he says (or write them down if that works better for you) but I would not keep rehashing stuff...it will wear you down. I did not scheduled a polygraph after Dday1 but I let my WH know that I had nothing to say to him because I was still putting the pieces together...this made him sweat and the truth trickled out the more I ignored him. You don't have to ignore your WH, but I would ignore him as far as engaging in A talk until you either have the poly or make contact with the BH. Plan A and take care of yourself.

I made contact with the BH three days post Dday and all hell broke lose after that. Before that WH (like the typical WS) was trying to do damage control. I also did speak to OW1 on two occassions but it was AFTER I had exposed. I personally would contact a OP but I would wait until you have the poly and have made contact with the BS.

Right now you are taking the word of a known liar. Sorry but that is the truth. Did OW tell YOU she was going to kill herself or is that per WH? You can't take his word for anything. If you didn't not hear this (or anything else really) directly from OW, take it with a grain of salt. And if you did...people usually don't threaten something as dire as suicide over an EA. OW could be a bunny boiler but it is more likely that the affair was more than just an EA or there were promises to leave you for her.

I know what you wrote about your WH's medical condition. Oral could have been one way, with her as the receiver...and he still could have been the receiver with his pants on. I am not trying to upset you but there are still ways to make sexual contact beyond kissing. Until you have the poly and contact with the BH, anything is possible. Make it happen!! You need this resolution ASAP.

"Since then, I have been tempted to call her out of curiosity. What does she want to say to me?"

I think that would be a great idea. The OW in my situation gave me a lot of information so I would certainly recommend doing this.

I get that you want to believe him. And I'm sure he knows it. He has a history of playing games. Can you relieve believe yourself at this point? You have to stop using your heart and use your head - belief and your heart will have to wait for later.

BH, remember what I told you about how a WS will throw you crumbs in an effort to make you think you have the full truth now so you will cancel the polygraph? He may or may not be sincere, but a wayward is 100% selfish and is only going to tell you what is to his benefit.

But I do think it is a good idea to call the OW and get as much information as possible. Ad do not allow that skank to give you marital advice. (They usually try!)

That he is a mgr at Lowe's may be a lie too. A mgr is not going to have blocked calls at his store. Lowe's and Home Depot have the store mgr and asst mgr names (sometimes pictures) listed by the entrance...BH could be a dept head so there would not be public listing like that. Have you checked Linkedin or tried calling Lowe's to ask which store BH is in vs just asking for BH at the particular store you call?

Think outside the box.

x 2

Recalling what I said about waiting...and DON'T tell your WH you are calling. That would be shooting yourself in the foot.

Funny you should mention: In the beginning WH constantly told me he didn't love her and never loved her. His tune there has changed. It went from "Never loved her" to "Was IN LOVE with her" to "I thought I loved her, but now I'm not so sure." As we currently stand, he belives he loved her as a cherished friend and he was infatuated with her, he believes that he "THOUGHT" he loved her, but is now beginning to see that there was somehting else going on. He also said that he completely agrees with the comparrison of an affair to a drug addiction, and the withdrawal or detox that takes place when it ends.

As for his actions: He has given me full access to everything. He keeps his safe unlocked in the closet. He even showed me his favorite hiding spots. He has turned over his credit cards to keep him from inappropriate spending. When I call, he answers immediately, or sends a text to let me know if something is delaying his answer... (ex. "giving DD a bath, will call in a few minutes"). The biggest changes are in his behaviors. He isn't hiding in the bedroom or bathroom for long periods of time (previous places for texted conversations)... He comes to every soccer game and practice with me. He even came with me to do the grocery shopping for the week. Aside from when one of us is working, he has stuck by my side like glue. At counseling last night, he kept taking my hand, putting his arm around me, and got me tissues while I cried. He rubbed my shoulders and kept the conversation going after the session ended. He also completed the Emotional Needs questionaire, traded with me, and has started trying to fill my emotional needs by sending random text messages of admiration! I really feel like he's trying.

Even if I cannot believe what he says and only half of his actions, I'd still say we are headed down the right path!

"Funny you should mention: In the beginning WH constantly told me he didn't love her and never loved her. His tune there has changed. It went from "Never loved her" to "Was IN LOVE with her" to "I thought I loved her, but now I'm not so sure." As we currently stand, he belives he loved her as a cherished friend and he was infatuated with her, he believes that he "THOUGHT" he loved her, but is now beginning to see that there was somehting else going on. He also said that he completely agrees with the comparrison of an affair to a drug addiction, and the withdrawal or detox that takes place when it ends."

The truth is trickling out because he is facing polygraph. The truth is that he is and was in love with her as a LOVER, not a "friend." He obviously does not have such "friendships" with men.

Do you have spyware on his phone? And are you continually VERIFYING that he is where he says he is?

Did you call the OW yet?

Is that really true? I'm fascinated by that thought.

OM emailed me once (after my request for information) and told me I "should do more fun stuff with her, maybe that was our problem". Thanks A-hole. Oh, and he didn't give me much information, but he did forward a couple of her (extremely lengthy) emails that she sent him. I'm sure he cherry picked the one's that minimized the intensity of the EA, they were really lame. He said he deleted all the others...sure.

You never know what you may get from OW, you gotta try. And get that poly scheduled. It seems like your biggest concern is you want to know what's going on in his mind (is he sincere?). That's what the poly does. Someone else reads his mind for you.

Thanks everyone. Working on getting the poly scheduled. Working on contacting OWH.

Perhaps I'll call OW tonight after WH goes to work.....

BB,
You can create a dummy linkedin acct to see more people. WIthout an account, I don't think you can see all applicable profiles:
http://www.linkedin.com/title/store-manager/at-lowes-home-improvement

If you do a google/yahoo search for BH with only his name and city/state (or various variables like Lowe's or his wife's name) you may get some hits. Have you cked online county records to see if divorce has been filed?

You may want to write down your questions for OW or your comments of what you'd like to get off your chest...but I wouldn't go on and on and on...sticking to facts that can be backed up helps too. It is easy to get emotional and flustered. Jotting down some notes, helps a BS stay focused.

Good luck!!!

Yes, I have spyware on his phone and I have GPS tracker on his phone. I'm constantly checking up on his location.

OW are quite a fascinating breed of cat. [my apologies to cats for the insulting comparison ] They not only fancy themselves as the arbiter of marriage advice, but have been known to spill their guts about every detail of an affair. They are much more willing to talk than an OM typically.

Good girl!! I am starting to relax and not worry so much about you. You are catching on.

ha ha!! Thanks!!! I'm trying!


Question tho: I pulled this from the MB site about recovery...

"But once apologies are made, a couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past. As much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a Love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any. "


Doesn't this mean that I should stop bombarding him with questions and asking for details? Shouldn't I just let up a bit to make him more comfortable with the idea of recovery?

Viscount Ashley of Leftfield is highly offended by the comparison!

Nope! He should give you all the details to your satisfaction FIRST. Once you have ALL THE DETAILS, then the affair should be dropped. HOWEVER, that does not mean that the subject of affair proofing and recovery should not be discussed.

sorry for the insult to cats!!

here

Exactly as ML said. When you know you've gotten all the details of the affair you need then it's dropped and never again comes up. You're asking questions because you know you don't know everything you need to be settled.

Thanks again everyone. I really do believe we are on the right track here. When it comes to the details... I'm pretty sure I have the BIG details... who where why when how and how long. What I seem to be asking for are little details... ya know?

BB, get as much details as you need so you can put it to rest.

The little details will haunt you indefinitely, especially as a woman.

This is where I think you would benefit talking to OW. Your husband will be tempted to say, "I don't remember" but OW WILL remember.

Good point... I have not contacted OW yet. I'm hesitant. Part of me wants to think that ignorance is bliss but I know that is not so. I think I'll never truly know the extent of things without talking to her. At the same time, I want to rip every piece of hair out of her head and set her clothing on fire while she is still wearing it... but... that would be wrong. I fear I will not be able to have a CALM RATIONAL discussion with her.

Prior to this happening, I always said that the BW who gets angry with the OW is a fool... yet here I am, hypocrit of the year! My thinking is that she knew the day they began chatting that he was married and she persued him anyway. She never denied that she wanted more than a friendship with him. To me, that makes her a person with poor boundaries and very bad moral fiber. She set out to ruin my marriage from day one. I can't put all the blame on him!! I cannot call her by name. I cannot humanize her by giving her a name. I refer to her as BF in my house -- stands for B*tchface.

It makes me wonder how that conversation would go. "Hello B*tchface, spill your guts on what you did with MY HUSBAND. Oh, and by the way, you are an evil, disgusting, dispicable entity that doesn't qualify to be called a human being." Yeah, not sure she'd be too receptive to that! LOL

I'm not sure if that was a "vent" or if you are considering not calling her. Definately don't meet her in person, and if you do, leave the matches at home.

I went to have an in-person civilized discussion with OM. Turns out, the background check gave me his father's address (not home at the time). So I called him and asked him to meet me. Guess how he responded? Not so bold when the BH flys 4000 miles to look you in the eye, are you? Probably for the best, I don't know how civilized I would have been. No...calling and email turned out to be the safest for everyone.

I think it was a little of both!! I don't trust myself to fly to Florida to see her in person. I'd probably injure her. But.. the phone call... I'm not sure if I have the strength to be civil. I was thinking about setting up a web based email account to use and email her instead. That would give me the opportunity to EDIT myself and perhaps be less aggressive. Then, once I get the info I need, I can delete the account and she has no contact info.

What do you think of that idea?

I would find a way to talk to her in instant chat. Perhaps over facebook or AIM. I got TONS of information from the OW over AIM. [AOL instant messenger] It is so simple to download and you can program it to save the log of your chat.

The reason I think you should speak to her in chat is because you want her to answer you impulsively so you get the truth. OW usually don't have much self control. My H's OW delighted in giving me the goods because it made her feel superior to tell me their secrets. I took advantage of that feeling! If you exchange emails it will give her time to think everything over. You don't want that.

Also, it will be easier to control your emotions over IM chat.

I would shoot her an email and invite her to chat with you on AIM at a certain time. Maybe give her no warning and ask her to join you as soon as she receives your email.

I think this is a good idea, because you will then have a written record of her side of the story.

The written record will be helpful to you if your WH has a different version of the truth, so you won't be second guessing yourself if you remembered a conversation wrong because you were mad or nervous. Or if your WH is weasel-wording things like, "You must have misunderstood", or "you must not have heard her right".

I hope you have not discussed this idea with your husband...DON'T. This is part of the James Bond stealthy fact-finding mission.

Yes!! I have had these exact thoughts about OW. I texted her a few times early in the affair to tell her to back off and give me a chance to save my marriage & family. But nope - that didn't stop them. I also can't use her name. I feel that would be giving her respect she doesn't deserve. I usually refer to her as slut, whore, or home wrecker.

During the affair WH played volleyball with OW three nights per week. My friends really wanted to show up at a game one time and confront OW or see what she did. I just couldn't do it! So I know what you mean about physical confrontation. My emotions would probably take over and I'd be out of control.

I like the instant message idea for you. I hope she agrees to talk with you whenever you decide to do it.

[quote=LifeIsBetter
During the affair WH played volleyball with OW three nights per week. My friends really wanted to show up at a game one time and confront OW or see what she did. I just couldn't do it! So I know what you mean about physical confrontation. My emotions would probably take over and I'd be out of control.
[/quote]

We have had several affairs that were killed that very way. SusieQ and her sisters confronted the OW in her sister's situation and ran her off. Dr Harley does recommend confronting the OP. If you think you would punch her out, it is a good idea to take some friends who will hold you back. And always...........leave your pistol in the car!!

Update:

Cell phone check indicated that WH started speaking to OW using her new cell phone number. This was at 2:00 AM, Saturday into Sunday. I blocked the new number, photographed then deleted the new messages, and handed him a suitcase... ok, THREW the suitcase at him. I then emptied his dresser into the suitcase in front of his eyes. He said I looked crazed. I didn't say a word. I then took the suitcase and threw it out the front door. I went back to the bedroom and took him by the hand and led him to the door, where I pointed that he should get out. He asked what was wrong with me. I held up his cell phone then collapsed on the floor in a pile of anxiety and tears.

He fell to his knees and started to sob. He begged me to let him stay. He said he was weak. He said she got the new number and contacted him in tears because her life was falling apart. He spoke to her to calm her down. It was only for a few days.... blah blah blah.

I let him stay for now, but he knows this is his last chance.

I was angry and hurt, so I called OW on the new number from our house phone. Naturally, she answered, thinking it was him. We had a nice little chat. She confirmed that there was no sexual contact aside from a simple kiss at the airport... consistant with his record of their only visit together. She was angry with him and spilled the beans about a few of his lies. I feel like I have another chunk of the puzzle filled in now and I can see most of the picture. She was so angry with the details I gave her about how GOOD our marriage had been. He never told her that. He told her our marriage was mostly over. She told me that she was done with him. She wanted nothing to do with a liar like him. Ironic, isn't it?

Anyway... that's where I am.

Yeah, that's what my now XH's OW said, too....claimed she was "done with him" a good 20 or so times before he finally left her! Don't trust her.

Sorry to hear about this, BB

He has demonstrated over and over and over again that he does not have the willpower to stay away from this POSOW so what is going to be done to prevent contact into the future? What is going on with his phone?

He has offered to get rid of the phone permanantly, but I'm afraid that will inspire him to get a throw away phone. We decided to change his phone number and put a restriction on his calls. Our plan allows me to place a "white list" on his account with the few numbers he is allowed to call or text. All other numbers are blocked. It will keep him honest... I hope.

Remind me, this is the fourth broken NC or is it the fifth? And how is it they keep breaking NC? Is it through the cell phone each time?

Didn't he think that the last time he broke NC ? Didn't he plead and beg the last time too ?

I don't think he is remotely serious about recovery.

Brainy, where is that "enabling" link ?????

Changing the phone # and putting spyware on his phone will help a lot. A good cell phone spyware program will have a built in GPS too. But, you can't tell him you have done this. Will you do this? Some good ones are eblaster at spectorpro.com or flexispy at flexispy.com

I'm thinking it's about one time too many for your WH. He's demonstrated to you that he will figure out ways to remain in contact with his OW.

I would suggest you go to Plan B.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with everyone. All you have done is let him know that there are no real consequences to him straying.

He did this in your home?

She "confirmed" nothing. They are both liar who simply coordinated their stories. The story about no sex is a lie.

I am gong to predict right here and now that your husband is going to leave you for the OW if you don't get on the stick and get ahold of the OW''s husband. There is absolutely no way it takes this long to get ahold of a BS.

You can't afford to put this off anymore. You MUST contact the OWH even if you have to drive to his town and go to his house.

I agree. Unless you are willing to get dead serious about killing this A, you might as well file for a D now.

Was there ever an NC letter sent to this OW?

You've had what? 4-5 D-Days? How long are you going to keep doing the same thing (BELIEVING HIM) before you make any real changes here? You are backsliding.

THIS is why you need Plan B---to protect YOU and your emotional health. If you can't do it for yourself, can you at least do it for your kids ?

BB, go back and re-read this thread. Doing so will help you see more clearly where you're at. You've been in denial about your WH's role in this mess and you haven't been that tough with him. Go back and re-visit everything that's been said here. It might help you wake up a little more.

And collapsing and sobbing is pretty lame on his part. Good heavens, what dramatics! I would NOT let him have even one second of feeling sorry for himself. Because he does and it's unacceptable.