I am new to this discussion forum and marriagebuilders though I have been reading as much as I can in the last few days. I'll cut to the question first then give some background. How much evidence do I need to expose? Is it just enough that I know what is happening or do I have to prove it to the people I expose to?

I have been married for thirteen years and have two children, six and nine years old. My wife is actively in an affair and has been for the past several months. It started out as an emotional affair about a year ago, first texting, progressing to phone calls, then to going out with the guy, then spending overnights at his house, about six months ago. The man happens to be the brother of one of her best friends who was starting to go through divorce shortly after they began texting. The day after the first or second overnight she told me she had sex with the guy. We had started going to counseling shortly before that incident. Up until about three weeks ago she had been cycling through contacting and not contacting the guy, 1-2 weeks on, 1-2 weeks off. Three weeks ago she stopped going t counseling and I have been going alone since she said it wasn�t working and she has seen no change in me. I have never been willing to give up hope on the marriage and have been trying to increasingly meet her emotional needs, and financial. She went back to work two months ago after having been a stay at home mom since our first child was born. Our financial road has been rocky. I am a recovering alcoholic with two years sober and am having trouble getting steady work after having been fired 18 months ago. She feels like she was forced to go to work even though we had hoped she would be able to stay home with kids.

Two months ago we both sat down with her parents to discuss financial help for moving out of an unaffordable apartment and I told them that she had been seeing another guy. She of course was furious and smashed a teacup on the floor as her parents left. Last week, before I found marriagebuilders, I told her parents (without telling her) that she had been having the guy over to our house when I was working and our children were home and that she is taking our kids to meet him in public against my wishes. She is continuing to have him over when kids are home. With our very limited funds she took him and his kids and our kids out for a $200 dinner.

I am stressed out but have not been showing anger the last couple weeks. I feel that the exposure and Dr. Harley�s Plan A and be may be my last chance. Most of my trusted friends have been telling me to either leave or lock her out of the house. I feel like I need to expose as soon as possible , but the only evidence I have is her word and what she has been telling me. She tells me when she is going out with him. Though since the first time they had sex she has not told me they are still having sex when I ask. I have stopped trying to read her texts to him on recommendation of the counselor because it increases my anger. I have already tried to get transcripts of texts but prepaid phone service says they cannot disclose due to privacy issues even though the account is in my name. I do have call history though.

Do I need anymore evidence that I have in order to expose? I feel the sooner I expose the better? Should I wait? I don�t think my counselor would necessarily advocate this type of exposure, but I feel it is the best thing to do. Counselor did not even say I should or shouldn�t tell wife�s parents even. Wife�s father though telling them was like tattle tailing.
I would appreciate your feedback please

Your counselor does not know JACK about saving marriages. Exposure is best -- the more people know the more likely the affair is to end.

You have plenty of evidence to expose. Secondly, I would file a retraining order to keep this OM out of your home and away from your children. When you expose I would expose to everyone, especially the OMs wife, parents, other family and friends. Your kids should never be exposed to her OM.

I agree. You have plenty of proof when you reach the point when YOU are sure. Let her try to explain it to a crowd of disgusted and concerned people.

It won't seem so romantic then, which is what you are going for.

Part of the fog is them persuading themselves they are entitled to do anything they want. It seems so reasonable to them that they EXPECT the BS to help them and keep it secret! Bust that notion right up.

Exposure to OMW is also key. Your wife does not fully realise she bust up this family, but she did.

You should also confront OM. Let him know his life will not be worth living if he continues this.

How dare he sneak into your home and spend your cash. After all his f&f are exposed to, (the details regarding his freeloading and entering your home included) he should know he would be named in any divorce suit and made to testify as to his breaking up a marriage. He should also know your children will never accept him and neither will the rest of the family.


You understand about exposure to the children?

There are template exposure letters in ML's sig.

What you did with her parents was exactly right. After you explain what has been happening to the kids, (They must be so confused!) I'd also tell others about the blatancy of the A.

Add a line which says: "Unfortunately my wife and her affair partner have even been so blatant as to include their children in their A. OM has been sneaking into my home without my knowledge and lying to my children which is incredibly confusing for them. His children have also been similarly introduced to my wife and included in clandestine meetings. He has even persuaded her to spend our marital funds on taking him and his children out to dinner. I urge people to help me as I try to protect my home and children."

Time to expose is now.

Exposure targets OMW, OM parents,

WW parents and siblings. Your kids, your parents, siblings.

Copy and paste OM and WW FB friends list. Then expose every one of them. Wait 1 full minute between each message sent so FB does not think you are spamming and block you.

Thank you all for your validation. I have already discussed with my nine year old why I do not want OM in my house when I am not ther, though have not told her the true nature of WW and OM relationship. I told her that I am uncomfortable having people I don't know in my home when I am not there. I could use some advice on langage to use when I expose more to her.

Also, I am assuming exposure to everyone should be done all on same day. I do not use facebook much but am getting used to it. I am also collecting contact info for those who are not on facebook, emails, phone numbers, etc. Should I wait until I have everyone's contact info to expose. I'm not sure how to get contact info of OM�s wife without alerting the wayward couple. Perhaps I can ask OM family members. OM wife was apparently cheating on him toward end of their marriage. I�m not even sure he is finally divorced, as he obviously has an honesty problem. My wife told me that he was surprised how honest she has been with me about A from the start, though my wife admits to not being completely honest with him either, about the nature of my relationship with wife.

One hesitation I have is about exposing to WW and OM employers. First of all I don�t know exactly where he works, only the city and the type of industry it is. Can this wait until after exposing to everyone else?

Just tell her straight out that her mother is having an affair, what an affair is and that the OM is a bad man to be avoided. She should call you immediately if he shows up again.


Does the OM have a facebook page? Does the OMW have a facebook page? I am sure they have both used the excuse they are "getting divorced" to each other. She has probably told the OM this lie about you.


You don't need to expose at work unless they work together or do business together.

one more question about the counselor I have been using. Even from the beginning I questioned her experience in these issues, but did not ask the questions suggested on marriagebuilders finding a good MC article. It was very difficult for me to fins a counselor that even was accepting new clients and accepts my insurance. Don't have the money to go outside insurance network. Read in another post about the importance of using a counselor on board with marriagebuilders, especially after exposure. Is there a list or network somewhere of counselors known to be in agreement with marriagebuilders methods?

about exposing to daughter: what should I do if she tells me he shows up again? Should I come home and confront him or just call the cops? Only my name is on the lease for our apartment as per wife's request due to ongoing financial and credit issues. Regarding restraining order, should this be done before exposure or after or does it matter? Do I have grounds fr restraining order on OM? OM wife actually had a restraining order put on him. My wife told me OM showed her a text he recieved from an irate husband of another woman he was seeing. OM is sick.

The earliest I would be be to expose is tomorrow, as I have to work today and have to use library computer due to slow computer/internet connection at home, though I do have a lot of free time at night when my wife is with OM. The last few weeks she has been spending two nights a week at his apt. coming home before kids wake up, though today she did not get back til they were awake. OM lives in apt. above his parents house, so hopefully they can have some more influence there.

No, you just have to call around and ask. But you can get excellent help on this forum because posters here are bound by the rules to stick to Dr Harley's advice. You also have the free resource of Dr Harley's daily radio show. That can be an immense help to you.

I would focus on busting up the affair and we can help you recover your marriage. You will also want to get the book, Surviving an Affair because this will help you understand the advice we are giving you. You can get it in bookstores, order online or download it now on kindle for PC's.

I would come home immediately and call the police if she calls you and tells you he is there. I would first warn the OM and your wife that he is not to ever set foot in your home again.

When you expose it is very important that you get ahold of the OM's wife and his parents in the first sweep. Even if you have to go to their homes to do it.

My wife and OM are so delusional. Tonight he came to pick her up from our house. While she was in the shower I went down to his car and told him to stay away from my wife and kids and never to step foot in my house again. He said he was not going to pay attention to me and that the apartment was not mine. When I came back in the house my wife told me to appologize to OM and to tell him that we are getting divorced. I have never considered divorce though my wife has brought it up many times over the years. It is so plain to see that neither of them are thinking straight at all.

Back to exposure. I feel I am getting obsessed over the exposure thing. I am barely getting three hours of sleep the last few nights. I just hope I can put as much time and energy into building my marriage as I am trying to stop this affair. I will certainly have to put much more energy than I have in the past.

I am planning to expose to OM parents and siblings tomorrow as well as his wife/ex. I found her FB page so I can at least message her. I am still working on getting her phone and address. Also am going to expose to wifes family, siblings, and close friends.

One question: Is it really necessary to expose to all WW and OM facebook friends? It seems to me it might be a bit much.
I mean I dont want to punish her and shame her.

It is almost scary how different she is right now from the way I knew her to be, doing whatever she can to be with OM, like an addict. She actually called me on my way home from work tonight to ask if there was a possibility for me to sleep somewhere else tonight. Of course I said no, but she was so polite in asking. Of course she left soon after I got home.

You want to expose to those who may put pressure on your WW. Family and close friends also pick friends that are married.

x

Edited and a double post happened!

One thing you must do. Never leave your house. NEVER. That would be WW's dream, for you to go and OM to move in. DO NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN.


Take a little time in between facebook messages starting with the most important people. Say, 1 or 2 minutes between people. Even then you may still get barred from messaging, so it's important to start with them.

Including OM's wife and parents, they should be some of your first targets.


If she is ashamed it is her own fault. That will help put pressure on her to end it.

Your 6yo is old enough for exposure too. Otherwise it is very confusing for the child.

I would expose to plenty of OMs fb friends as it sounds like you would get plenty of feedback and allies.

It is imperative you get his wife and parents. If he's seeing other women they could be good targets too.

If your wife gives you another Speech like that say: "I don't talk divorce, I talk marriage". Ignore response.

Take care.

Here.
Men, Don't Leave your Home

Eden13, passing this along from a former vet on this forum:

Here is your game plan. Most betrayed husbands haven't the courage to follow it fully, to their own discomfiture. Those that do have remarkably better results than the rest.

THE BETRAYED HUSBAND SURVIVAL KIT

1- KEEP ALL THESE ARRANGEMENTS SECRET FROM YOUR WAYWARD WIFE!
2 � Put a keylogger on any computer you can access that she might use.
3 � Put a spy program on any cell that she might use. (�Eblaster� can cover #4 as well.)
4 � Put a GPS on her car, reporting to your computer.
5 � Put a VAR in her car, and in any room she might use to take �personal� calls
6 � Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it in your possession and �on� whenever in her presence.
7 � Put together an e-address list of anyone who might have influence on her � parents, siblings (sisters, especially), coworkers, college friends, clergy, hairdresser, anyone.
8 � Put together a similar list for the POSOM.


WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE,

9 � Put together the electronic evidence for each AP.
10 - Write a cover note for your wife�s contacts, to the tune of: �I must unhappily inform you that my wife, XXXXXX, is carrying on an illicit affair with YYYYYY. I am hoping to recover our marriage, and ask if you have any influence over her, to urge her to abandon her cheating lifestyle and return to me and our family. Her cell number is 111-222-3333�
11 � Write a similar note to POSOM�s contacts.
12 � Send out both packages, to all contacts at one time.
13 � Brace yourself.

Godspeed!

What would she be ashamed of? Is she doing something wrong? All you are doing is spreading the good news. You don't' expose to her facebook friends, though. You expose to OM's facebook friends. You expose to her friends and family via email, facebook, phone call. Try to hit as many of the OM's facebook friends as possible.

But no, you don't "punish" her at all. But you do expose to as many people as possible because you don't know who will be able to get through to her. Exposure is not "punishment," it is therapeutic.

I am shocked at how brazen your wife is. Most adulterers are not this brazen and in your face. Is there a reason why she is so cruel?

I think she is so brazen because she is justifying her actions based my history of alcoholism, difficult financial circumstances, me leaving or losing jobs, my apparent inability to make enough income to support family, �forcing� her to get a job after ten years as stay at home mom, and general lovebusting behaviors. She said she�d file for divorce on grounds of my underemployment. I have been in recovery for my alcoholism for two years and my mental and spiritual state has improved, allowing me to see that hers has not been so great. A year ago someone introduced us to Harville Hendrix books and we tried that, in terms of practicing more love building behaviors. It was somewhat helpful but neither of us followed it wholeheartedly. Then came the OM. I had started working nights and weekends in retail, so I was not seeing my family the way I had been used to. I was missing weekend activities like kids friends� birthday parties. At one of these parties is where WW was reintroduced to OM. She had actually gone on a date with him 15 years earlier (he is the bother of one of her best friends). I certainly recognize working nights and weekends is love busting for our relationship. Especially now that she is working full time during the day. Only see her about an hour in morning before work and an hour after she comes home and before I work. Perhaps that is why the situation is really coming to a head now, since she started job two months ago. When I first discovered OM I at first was resentful, that I think I natural began to compete with him, doing more love building behaviors. She said the only reason I was doing this was because of other man. Perhaps it was. Maybe I really needed this A to wake me up to how bad things were. Just sorry I didn�t take action sooner.

In her past relationships before I met her she looked for a man to take her away from things, usually older man, who would zoom her away in his care. This A reminds me of that. I certainly have a less take charge personality, and this is something she has been concerned about for a while. She has always said that I don�t have a mind of my own, that I do whatever she says, r what other people tell me to do. I do have an issue with this that I am working on. For the last couple months she has purposefully not been telling me what to do, in many ways. I do feel a relief in this in that I am free to make own decisions and take responsibility for them. It certainly has been a big adjustment for me. Through this I have strengthened my resolve to try to save and heal marriage. I feel the descision to expose the A is a huge step for me. Most of my friends tell me I should just leave. They ask me why I want to stay in a dead marriage. I told them it is just something I believe in, I believe WW and I can heal together. I know it will be a lot of hard work but I guess this is my last chance.

For the sake of your child you should give it a shot.
Expose and plan A for 6 months
You need to expose ASAP

She isn't very familiar with the richer/poorer part of the marrriage vows is she? But that's not unusual as far as wayward-speak goes. As ML says her rather blatant cruelty is unusual though.

Your prognosis for busting up the A isn't bad if you expose properly. OM sounds like a professional playah who will simply dump her for easier meat when it gets too hot for comfort.

I wouldn't waste too much time on worrying about their shame. They are dining out in public with very little regard for any shame they should feel. It will actually take a lot of work on your part to get them to feel the natural sense of shame which stops the majority of us doing shocking things.

I think exposing such a professional playah as this OM publicly will help save many people. Also your wife desperately needs help in living a good life from her nearest and dearest.

You wont help her by keeping the crack house curtains drawn while she shoots up.

I finally mase my first exposures by phone. Can not do facebook exposures until tomorrow as home computer freezes up in facebook and ibrary is closed for Veterans Day.

I exposed to OM's father and sister(WW's best friend), WW other best friend,WW godmother

Tried to call OM wife but got man who said I had wrong number. Will try fb messaging her tomorrow. According to OM sister their divorce is close to being finalized, but not yet.

Also made full disclosure to WW mother whom has always been supportive of marriage despite our years of marriage issues.

Will expose to WW siblings tomorrow via fb, though I could call them. What method would be better? Does it really matter?

I feel a lot of relief but am still on edge.

I am planning on exposing to my kids after school and before WW gets home from work.

Is it bad that I have to wait till tomorrow to do fb exposure?

You may be blocked on FB by them both by then. Can you go to a relatives or friends house and use their computer? At the very least try to get OM's friends list copied and pasted into a word doc so you can look the targets up later.

Thanks. I have copied them into a word doc and am trying to send as many as I can today.

Good job

I see that for some of you who are divorced that these methods have not been successful at rocovering your marriages. What is the acual rate of success?

eden,

Is it bad that I have to wait till tomorrow to do fb exposure?

Not perfect, but better than waiting 10 or 20 years and regretting doing nothing, or more commonly waiting 6 months and then telling the folks on MB I wished I had listened.

Stay on the job!

God Bless
Gamma

I don't think it will hurt anything to do your fb exposures tomorrow. What did these people say about the affair? Will they be calling your WW and/or the OM to express their thoughts? What did the OM's father and sister say? Can you speak to his mother?

Are you keeping a recorder on at all times when you're around her? You know, I don't know, I don't know if this is good idea or not but if he does show back upto take out your wife, I'd get up, get my keys and tell her I'm not watching the kids while she goes out and has an affair. I might only stay gone for 5 min but I sure wouldn'tmake it easy for her to rrun off with him

Not all marriages should be recovered. In my case Dr Harley would not have recommended I even try, as I am pretty young and there are no children. I gave my WH a very short term opportunity to do the plans before moving on quite quickly.

There are also those waywards who come around one or two years into Plan B but by then the BS has healed and lost all interest in recovery. So not every divorced MBer is divorced against their will - most of us actively chose it over recovery.

Dr Harley says 95 per cent of all Affairs end within two years post exposure when the plans are followed. After that it all depends on whether your wayward is up for following an MB plan.

In two years on these forums I've never seen an A successfully go the distance after exposure. Never heard of it happening from the other vets and neither has Dr H in 20 years.

I've also never seen the plan for marital recovery fail if it is followed by two spouses and I've never seen the plan for personal recovery fail if it is followed by the BS.

The personal recovery plan ensures you do not end up being a) cheated on indefinitely or b) sign up for a false recovery where she has a second A.

As for marital recovery, it depends if she can be a buyer and sign up to the conditions after her A is over. If she does, it always works.

So I would say the plans work 100 per cent of the time when they are followed correctly.

Very good point. I'd also cut off any Affair contact resources you are paying for. If it's within your power to cancel the car/phone/internet, do so. Let her figure out how to pay for her A stuff.

I need to clarify. Tell me if the following are true:

1)I only expose to wife's close friends and family, not all of her entire ffacebook friend list

2) I do expose to other man's entire facebook list and his family.

Question? Can OM file harrassment or libel when I message hi s entire friend list?

1) I would expose to wifes closest family and friends.
2) expose to OM entire facebook list.

Dr Harleys advise is thorough exposure.
Regarding OM filing harassment, people can file for anything.
I exposed to OM friend list and I was threatened with lawsuits (he used my wife to threaten me lol) well nothing came of that.
You can't be sued for telling the truth.

Don't focus on what OM is worried about, focus on exposure

Correct.


As many as possible. Prioritize by starting off with his family, then married friends. Get to as many as possible. BE SURE you speak to his parents. Even if you have to go to their house.


No, it is not harassment or libel to tell the truth. And it is not in his best interest to do so because then he will have his affair dragged through the public court. It would be more public.

Anybody can file for anything. The more relevant questions are would he file, and could he win? Harassment implies repeated behavior even after a request is made to desist. A one-shot message hardly qualifies as that. Libel requires falsehood. Are you lying or telling the truth? For OM to take you to court, he has to be willing to address that issue under oath. How likely is that to happen?

I have not heard back from any of them directly but wife knows I called OM father and sister and my wife's friends. OM father told me that he wasn't in agreement with the affair and said he didn't know how he could help but he'd try. OM lives in apartment in his paren�ts house so there could be good influence there. Although father said that he did not think my wife had been spending two nights a week at the house, probably because she comes late and leaves early, and OM usually picks her up so her car is not involved.

OM sister (WW best friend) said she had discussed things with WW and was never supportive of the A, regardless of whether or not my wife and I stay together. She believes we can not work through issues while this affair is going on. She said she is not talking to my wife because f it. She was alerted to the affair several months ago when WW and our kids slept over at OM sister house (OM and sister live in same town). Once everyone was asleep, my wife snuck out of the house, leaving her children without telling anyone. Wife�s friend woke up and realized she was gone. Wife�s friend and her husband were pissed and both spoke to the OM at the time. She did not speak to my wife or invite her over for a while after, though a few weeks ago my wife and kids did have another sleepover at her house.

Got it. Thanks so much!

Eden, in that case, you need to contact a lawyer and find out how you can get sole custody and get her out of your home. Your wife is reckless and dangerous to your children. Would she move out if you asked her?

She said she wants and is trying to find her own place, but I think she intends on taking the kids. Since she snuck out of friends house she has not left the children without first arranging for childcare, namely me.

I exposed to my kids yesterday and wife was obviously upset whe my daughter told her. My daughter told me wife had been asking her what she thinks of having a blended family with OM and his kids.

When I first exposed to my inlaws they proposed that they take sole custody of the kids, due to both the A and our financial issues. My mother in law has since also suggested the possibility that I take kids and move in with my parents who live out of state.

How honest should I be with wife and friends and family about who I exposed to on facebook?

Should I go to counseling appt scheduled for today and discuss any of this with my counselor? I'm not sure if wife would want to come at this point, but she may to air out her feelings on the exposure. I have not asked her yet. Counselor has not been that helpful. She has not said that the A has to end.

Would I need to get official custody first or could I just take the kids? I know there may be legal consequences but have not looked into it.

In regard to evidence. Will I need phone records and such if it comes to custody battle? I am not able to get text messaging records, only voice, since she has prepaid cell phone, thought the account is in my name.

Also should I take her paycheck out of the mail and deposit it without telling her? When we moved a couple months ago I put the apartment in my name only since she did not want to be financially responsible for it. Since my income is not even enough to cover the full rent, my father in law acted as a cosigner, and has also been hesitantly supplementing to meet rent this past month. I know I need more income quick.

I set up a bank account in my name only when we got this apartment because I borrowed money from my parents. My wife was pissed that I didn't tell her until after the fact but I was really unsure of what was going to happen. Both my wife and I have had trouble being completely honest about finances and budgeting all along. This is one of our major issues in our marriage.

This is why I would contact a lawyer NOW. Get her to move out but don't allow her to take the kids. I would not allow her to take the kids out of my sight if I were you.


Your wife is corrupting your children morally. I hope you are talking about why adultery is wrong to them.


Those are some good ideas. What I would not do is allow her to continue to drag your children into her sleazy affair.


You can just tell them you exposed to everyone.


I think your time would be better spent consulting with a lawyer and getting legal protection for your kids.

What do your parents say about coming to live with them? That is an option that I would explore. Find out if they will allow it and then find out if you can get legal support to do this.

You should contact a divorce attorney asap.
I know that some have suggested that you leave the house if she needs someone to watch the kids on her dates etc.....However in a custody case you want to be seen as the parent that STAYS for the kids.

You are at a crucial point.
I am a father of 3 kids and my wife had an affair, made a false promise (s) to end it, and demanded that I move out.
But I stayed .....so she ended up leaving for longer and longer periods of time.
Eventually she was gone for days, weeks at a time. Disappeared.
Today I have custody and my kids are doing well in a safe loving home.

You need a good lawyer.
Also make sure you carry a voice activated recorder on you at all times (hide it on you, even in bed)
Do a background check on OM (my wifes affair partner was a dangerous violent felon)
Become involved in all children's activities.
Take a parenting class (churches and some cities offer these)
Get a plan on where to live without wife being part of finances.

Most courts won't allow you to leave the state.
Also under no circumstances should you leave the home until you speak to an attorney.

And if wife tries to lock you out, call your attorney and a locksmith. Call the police.
Do not threaten your wife, my attorney told me a lot of male clients get mad and hit the om or the wife and it hurts their case.
If wife disappears with the kids, call the police.

As for the counseling, individual counseling is fine
But marriage counseling is not only a waste of time but actually causes love bank withdrawls.

I am about to do facebook exposure to OM friends. Facebook instructions say that I have to pay per messsage to avoid going to spam. How do I do that? Does it automatically prompt me when I try to send many messages?

When you go to place the message in each box, it will give you the option to pay and prompt you through. I don't know if it still does this, but they used to stop you if you sent too many messages too fast, so we would tell people to space them out 60 seconds.

I have not been carrying a recorder. Is this really necessary? I know that in letter to OM facebook friends it says I would be happy to provide evidence. The only evidence I have is voice call records and possibly e-z pass toll records. I was told by phone company that they would only release numbers texted to and content of texts if they were requested by police. Do I have grounds to request this from police or do I need to file a lawsuit?

thanks meloddylane.

I would delete the part about providing evidence and just say they are having an affair very matter of factly. You don't need to provide evidence because they are both so brazen.

I do need to go to work and I work nights from 6 til midnight, so I need to leave my kids. don't think anyone would watch them for free between those hours.

How fast can you get a day job? This is a huge part of the problem.

Can you ask to be put on another shift?

Eden, can you go listen to the radio show from yesterday? It plays over until noon. Dr Harley describes a betrayed husband who moved with his children to another state to get them away from his wayward wife who was having an affair with a meth dealer. The children were being abused by the boyfriend. [a very common occurrence] The betrayed husband moved to another state and was able to win custody of the kids.

I am not saying this is the right solution for you, but you should do everything to protect your kids. You can also do a background check on the OM. Jedi did the same and found out the OM in his case was a convicted felon who had beaten his own daughter.

Do you have daughters?

Can I also get the radio show from the archives after today?

Yes, as soon as they load them into the archives.

Is a recorder necessary? YES!
Lots of men are arrested for "beating, threatening, etc" that are INNOCENT!
Women know all they have to do is cry abuse and the man is gone.
Protect yourself!

Well, I exposed today to more friends and family of my wife as well as many of OM facebook friends. Wife was livid, concerned about it affecting both her and his employment. When she came home from work she physically attacked me in front of our children. I called police and spent a couple hours at the station. I said I did not want to press charges but they had to because it was a domestic dispute. She was released on her own recognisance. I got a restraining order where it says she can not come around me our my apartment, but unfortunately did nt request temporary custody of the kids. Kids went to her parents house when police came, but because I did not request custody, she immediately went there demanding to take them. She ended up taking only my son since daughter was sleeping. Said she was going to her girlfriend's house. I think this is true but I can only hope. Now wishing I had requested custody, but that can't be changed until 7-10 days when a hearing is set confirm, modify, or rescind the restraining order.

Mother in law is concerned mainly for the kids, said she doesn't trust me or my wife. Said how do I know wife wasn't lying about my wife telling me she had sex with the OM, to push me away. I know that she was not lying, by the pain and guilt she was in when she had told me. Oh well. Other than that time she has not confirmed nor denied having sex again (probably means she has). Mother in law has seen the messages I sent out and says everyone she has talked to thinks it was wrong for me to do. Though I did receive a message back from wife's brother and a friend saying that they are saddened but we are both in their thoughts and prayers. The friend, and her husband, is not one of our closest, but they are in a strong marriage and just celebrated their tenth anniversary yesterday. Friend said she wanted to contact my wife but thought it might be seen as an attack. They invited us to Thanksgiving by their place, so I told her that wife and I weren't taking much so maybe she could at least call or text the invite to her.

Will I have to prove this A in court, and if so how much evidence will I need?

A question about background checks: What is the quickest, cheapest, best way to background check?

eden, I would get your kids back and get ahold of an attorney so you can get sole custody. Your wife will continue to drag your kids into her affair and they will end up abused, molested. Apparently, not even her own parents will protect your kids. So go get them for now and get them home.

You can do these online with intelius.com I believe. Others might know of other ways.

Good job on calling the Police.
Dr Harley encourages any abused spouse to press charges with the police.
See the lawyer asap.
She's going down the same track my wife did

You need to change your job asap.
Your attormey Will also tell you this.
Is your child school age? If thw child isn't in school tomorrow call the police and children services

My daughter, who stayed at in-laws is nine and mother in law says she will bring her to school tomorrow. My son, who my wife took tonight is 6. We started him in kindergarten this year but he had trouble with attachment issues, so I have been homeschooling him the last few weeks. My wife had homeschooled my daughter through first grade but I am still new to it. I hesitantly agreed to homeschool since my wife started new job, but this precludes a day job for me (just one thing that has been effected by our poor communication). I will be working on getting him into school again. Child protective has already been notified due the assault tonight, so I will be hearing from them. I�m guessing they will probably want him in school. I hope they will be of help. I will be working on getting day job immediately, as I know the night hours I work as well as the low pay were big issues in our relationship (both with wife and kids).

Since I exposed to my kids, and especially after what happened tonight I m wondering if I should get school psychologist involved, or an outside therapist.

When I exposed to my kids, my daughter told me that she was uncomfortable around the OM, that when she hert herself he was indifferent to her and didn't look up from his phone. She also mentioned that whe they were together with WW and OM they would tell kids to play a game and go in the other room. When my daughter went in to ask them a question she saw them repositioning themselves. I am really feeling stupid now about not asking for temporary custody. Maybe child protective will have some say. My inlaws are willing to care for the kids. Wife's stepfather is a lawyer and he realized that since we still both have custody she had the right to take my son. My mistake.

I would not trust the in laws.
There is an old proverb: Blood is thicker than water.

I suggest you email the school psychologist:

Dear Psychologist,

During the past few weeks my wife has been having an affair and leaving the home.
Last night she assaulted me and the police issued a restraining order.
I am concerned these recent events may be stressful for my child.
Please let me know if you notice any concerning behaviors or have any suggestions.
Thank you

Don't trust the inlaws!!!

Your MiL has already given you ample warning that she will not support you and will blind herself to the truth about WW.

Even if she were being at all supportive, blood is thicker than water.

Can you ask your employer for a leave of abscence while you deal with this? Tell your boss you need to be around your kids 24/7 at the moment because your wife has become violent and is exposing the kids to her boyfriend of nefarious character. Tell him you have legitimate concerns your daughter may be abused (honestly this is so common with OM). Once you have something in place legally and with schooling you will probably only be able to work days.

I'd take a few days off to contact a lawyer and get a legal agreement in place which gets you custody of the kids and your wife out of the house. Or which makes it legal for you to take them to your parents which you may have to do if you will need to quit your job.

In the meantime I would pick your daughter up from school today and make sure nobody else has access to the kids (the inlaws will just roll over and let WW take them). Make sure that you stay with them round the clock.

My wife is asking that I apologize to those I exposed to, especially OM friends and family. I am not inclined to do that. She says that if I don't do it before 2pm she is bringing the exposure letters to her arrainment in court for the assault. I'm not really sure how that could help her with justifying the assault. I am in the process of getting legal counsel. Has anyone had experience in being brought to court upon exposrue of affair?

After I exposed, I was told I needed to apologize to POSOM, call his employer to get his job back, that he was going to sue me...to call his mommy and apologize....blah, blah, blah.

If she wants to go even MORE public with the truth of her affair, in open court -- well, go right ahead, then!

Your exposure hit the target.

What is she going to do?
Tell th judge: I beat him because he made me mad?

She's trying to control you.
Make sure you have the voice recorder on you.

As for exposure of affair, my attorney brought my ex wifes affair parter to court via subpeanae.
In many states adultery is just cause or divorce.
In Florida it is still a crime, I believe.
In North Carolina, betrayed spouses can sue the adultery partner.

Exposure of adultery is NOT illegal (ask Bill Clinton)

I am not seeking divorce, though she has said that she has already talked to a lawyer abot it.

Bringing the exposure letters to HER arraignment????

Hardy har har. That was a good one.

I agree with the others that we rarely see the cheating spouse so overt in their activities. The guy showed up to pick her up for a date?? Wow.

Anyway, I like your patience and resolve in this matter as Im sure it will pay off for you, if you want it to. This wife of yours is in it deep. Your choice to standby as she engages in this is certainly admirable.

Stay tough buddy and care for those kids as she's showing zero interest in them. And, be prepared as now that this affair is public it should be winding down, as a lot of them tend to do. The magic of the clandestine action being over and the reality of public admonition are usually recipes for an OM to make himself scarce.

You need to follow through on the rest of the steps the very qualified people here will guide you with. No matter how this turns out, staying true to the steps will help you immensely.

If you dont excercise, start. I started with a simple walk around the neighborhood and now run 4x a week. Whatever the chemical that is produced from an excercise session is, it helps you see things clearly. See a doctor and get a looksee from stem to stern.

Good luck.

You may need to file for divorce in order to get custody of your kids.
Your attorney can discuss this with you.

Did you do a background check?

You need to see an attorney TODAy

I would invite her to bring those letters to the arraignment so the judge understands that she is having an adulterous affair and dragging your children into it.


That would be great. Please welcome her proposal.

And why should you apologize for spreading the good news of her affair??

Eden,

If you exposed following the letter template shown on the exposure thread then you have NOTHING to worry about, the way the letter is written is not aggressive, scandalous nor vindictive in any way, infact I believe it was written by a lawyer who was a vet on this forum.

Telling the truth is not a punishable offence. You are not harassing anyone as you didnt contact anyone after they told you they do not wish to communicate with you.

Be strong and stand by your rightful actions, your WW is angry because you have put a dent in her little fantasy world where she gets to have an affair and have you at home taking care of everything and keeping it secret.

The OW in my thread had an family member who was a lawyer he contacted me and told me he would sue me on her behalf because of exposure, I simply replyed I told the truth so go ahead and do what you want, never heard form him again.

In my 4 years on this forum no one has ever been legally affected by exposing and we get to see 100s of new BS on here.

Please take a breath, calm down and don't waver, you are fighting for your family.

I also doubt very much she has been to a divorce lawyer, why would she when she was so comfortably cake eating having her carefree meetings with the OM and a somewhat docile husband at home?

Dr Harley would not advice BS to expose if it meant they would get into legal difficulties, he has built a stellar reputation in his field for over 20 years. Do you think anyone would be crazy enough to destroy a good career by giving patients dangerous advice?

Listen to the vets, getting legal advice does not mean divorce, it means protect yourself as you witnessed first hand your white is DANGEROUS right now and not just phisically I mean she is dangerous in every sense, she is not thinking clearly but for the sake of the kids you have to therefore protect them and protect yourself, they don't deserve two destructive parents.

Your inlaws are not and will never be an option. If they had the right morals they would intervene more forcefully in their daughters behaviour.

Good luck and really hope you continue to follow the advice here and get your family thought this situation.

Eden, this is a very amusing threat to those of us who see it regularly. They never do it, sadly. Melody Lane and I are both dying to see one stand in front of a court and self expose their own affair so they can lose their children and keep the kids safe from the OP.

But they never do it!

Yours at least is intelligent enough to make it SOUND sorta legal. After my Facebook exposure the OW in my case said she was going to 'go to the police' (Libel is a civil not criminal offence) for slander (slander is spoken not written) and she was also going to have me arrested under stalking laws because if I knew about her affair I must be stalking her!!! I did not give her the dignity of any response other than a chuckle. Never heard any more about it.



Hmmmm. Waywards TALK an awful lot about divorce and rarely do it. 99.99 per cent threaten it post-exposure or even before. However they aren't as interested in divorce as they are in trying to threaten the BS with it.

Essentially what they want is for the BS to sit back and let them do what they want. Babysit for the affair, financially support the A, co-parent in a good natured way throughout. They are willing to use any and all legal and D threats to get to that golden aim.

However the few waywards who do file tend to be women. And as a man you need to get the legal stuff iron clad regarding your kids.

Get to a lawyer and get a hard line plan in place so the kids will be protected and she can see exactly what a D with you will look like. Dont love bust or threaten it, dont talk about it at all. Just do it. Show her that actions, not words, is how a BS rolls.

Was not able to speak to lawyer yesterday. Will work on it today. Increasing confusion because I did not request custody of kids in restraining order. Inlaws are very strong about not letting my wife stay at their pace while she has a boyfriend. When kids are at inlaws, it's fist come first served in terms of picking them up. I wouldn't put it past my wife to call the police on her parents for not releasing my children. (My son does get so upset and screaming though when he cannot see mom so makes it easier to let him go) My mother in law said that she doesn't completely trust either of us. She was questioning reality of the affair. How did I know WW was not lying just to push me away. Why didn't I do something soner. I guess I had not been clear enough. I finally told her that wife admitted to me, and to our counselor, to having sex with OM. She seems to be taking me a bit more seriously now and almost seemed to

Was able to have my all night and overnight last night. I unexpectedly did not have to work because store closed early due to terrible accident involving a fellow employee. My son was distraught that he couldn't see mom screaming. Ended up falling asleep at 11 pm t a movie. Wife asked don't I think he should be with mother. I told her she didn't seem so concerned with that the last few weeks when she was leaving for OM house at night. I had the same issues getting him to sleep then. Only difference this time is that she told him she coudn't come back (due to restraining order), instead of promising to be back. Wondering if I shoud allow WW to have any parenting time with him at all.

My daughter does not seem so overtly perturbed not to see WW but was asking son what she is looking like and is she ok. School had been notified about the situation, probably by child protective, and daughter said that someone (social worker?) talked to her privately at school. The guidance counselor spoke with her as well. I had worked with the guidance counselor earlier on when I was trying to get my son to go to school. I'm wondering if I should sspeak with her directly and tell her exactly what is going on. I assume she knows about the assault and restraining order already, but should I discuss A with her?

This has to come before everything else.



Yes that is a good idea. Tell them all about your wife trying to coerce them into accepting her boyfriend while still married and then assualting you. They will need to know that stuff.

However you cannot delay with getting legal advice.

I suggested you email the guidance counselor previously.
You never did?

Better late than never.

As for the kids crying, that is natural. In fact my ex wifes affair partner tried to beat his daughter to death. As the paramedics pulled her away she was screaming " I want my daddy!"

Kids want parent s even those who neglect them.
At this point your wife is just a self centered selfish woman that cares only for herself and sex with OM.
She is willing to sacrifice everything to get that, including her kids.

However, next time she asks you if he would be best with his mother respond:

"I am willing to work with you to create a loving marriage where both of our needs are met but you must first end your affair with om"

I would also communicate that same sentence with your in laws

Any suggestions on what to do if i can't afford lawyer

Then you call everyone you can to borrow money and get an attorney.
Custody battles are war.
I fought and secured custody of my kids. It cost me everything, I'm bankrupt but as McCarthur proclaimed when he left the Phillipines, I shall return!

Don't go into this with half measures and an uncertain agenda.

Eden let me put it this way,
If one of your kids was seriously ill and you couldn't afford medical treatment would you be sitting back and letting him suffer? I would think not. You would beg and borrow money to make sure he gets help.

Right now your children are at risk of both mental and phisical harm, you need to protect them, you need to get this done ASAP, it's a priority.

Tell the school what's going on, your giving your WW the opportunity to harm the kids, you should have contacted the school before they were contacted by anyone else!, It is your job to ensure the kids are ok.

Please consider the consequences of not taking control of this situation.

Am I stupid not to want a divorce at this point? Is it even reasonable to assume any chance of our marriage recovering from this?

And as far as evidence for your MIL she can ask the kids as well about her daughters interactions with the OM, they seam to have seen quite a bit.

If you are still getting stuck on this "evidence" point consider making a note of all the times the OM picked up your WW from your house and all the times that your WW slept over with him.

For example

Sunday 11/01/2013 - whiteness OM picking WW up from our home at 11pm, asked WW for explanation she stated she had sex with him.

Monday 11/02/2013 - WW left home at 12pm stated sleeping over at xxx house, OM picked WW up.

Tuesday 11/03/2013 - OM arrived at our home at 5pm WW went out in his car with him. WW did not come home tonight.

----------------------

keeping a diary of the events will help you in court and can be used as your evidence. Go back over the last month and make a note of all the times you witnessed interactions with the OM, and the day she admitted to having sex with him. you can also make a note of all the incidents when she left the kids alone to hook up with him or done anything to expose the kids to OM and Danger.

Your WW might be able to talk her way out of some of the incidents but she will have a hard time wriggling out of all of them and hey presto before you know it you now have concrete documented evidence of the Affair.

Lawyer does not mean divorce,

Unfortunately you have let your WW get away with too much for too long, now you got to work harder to get her to end this A.

If she does not end the A you don't have a marriage anymore, it's impossible to recover.

Your WW will not give up this affair until she can see the consequences of her choices and wake up from the fantasy world she has been in during this A.

No one here is an advocate for divorce but you have to have to get your act together well done for exposure, well done for the sobriety but now concentrate on killing this A.

The more stressed your WW the more hard work she is for the OM and there is a good chance he's going to get fed up with her, the fun is over.

Yes, your marriage can recover when your wife ends tge affair and comes out of the fog and IF both you follow the Revovery Plan in Surviving an Affair.
Are You reading the book?

My wife recently got an iphone through Verizon "for my daughter", though she has told daughter she now wents to use it. Account is in her name though phone is in my posession. Online account has not been set up. Should I sett up accunt let her use phone, even though we can't afford it, in order to track things? I m still trying to convnce her to return it since we are still in the 14 day returnable period. So fare we both use prepaid dumb phones that only store recent text messages.

BTW my wife is not too tech savvy, never really accessed any of our online accounts. Won't even text to check balance of checking accunt. Though OM may start to help her. He is much much sneakier by nature than she is.

Yes I just got the Surviving an Affair yesterday from library.

How is the phone being paid for? If it is coming out of joint marital funds, return it yourself.

yes it is out of joint funds, though she argues it is her money since she makes more than I do at the moment.

Out of all the suggestions that have been made to you up till now do you really think the phone is the thing that needs the most priority?? Wow

I would install spyware on the iphone while its in your posession.
Install GPS unit on her vehicle.

I am going to modify the temporary restraining order, to request temporary custody, and possibly no contact (right now she is allowed to contact me. What do you recommend about allowing her parenting time? I was thinking supervised by her mother. Is this crazy?

I won't be able to get to the court til tomorrow morning to modify, but I don't have to work tonight, so am able to have the kids here. Other nights when I am working my mother in law is willing to take them. Th reason she gave kids up to my wife is because of the way I originally wrote the restraining order. Since I did not request custody the first time, my wife has legal right to demand them to give kids up to her.

I am working on getting an attorney through legal aid.

That sounds perfect.

I would fight for full custody.
Let yhe court or your wife arrange for supervised visitation.
I would stop relying on the in laws. With rare exception, most side with their blood

So my inlaws say they will not provide childcare for me as long as my wife and I are separated. I am trying to clarify if they won't also provide childcare for her under the same conditions. I did not get to the court today to modify the restraining order, so we still both have custody. I have to work tonight at 6. and can not really take off. I don't have any sick or personal time left to take, and need the income so I look to the state like I am doing what I can to support the kids. My parents out of state said that they would possibly be willing to house me and the kids but they won't be able to come down to watch kids before I am scheduled to work. I think I may have to hand kids over to wife before I go to work. I think that she may be shaken up enough not to take them to see OM but can't be positive. Also think she would keep them in the area since she has to work. She does have an uncle on her father's side down in florida who I did not expose to, but don't think she would actuall take kids there, I hope. Not sure if we could agree onn when she would geve kids back to me. Have note talked to her today. Does she have to hand them back to me if I ask? If she leaves them in someone else's care is that person required to give them up to me if wfe is not there? I still have not talked to lawyer, no one will lend money, I have no credit. I am going through process to get free legal aid, and will be able to speak to someone before my restraining order hearing next wednesday, but wont be til monday or tuesday.

I would find a babysitter NOW. GEt off the internet and start making calls. DON'T hand your kids over to your crazy, reckless wife.

You are going to have to be more proactive here and stop allowing life to "happen" to you. That is an alcoholic trait that I see going on here. You have children that must be protected.


This needs to be of utmost importance and is not something that can be put off.

You NEED to take care of your kids. Will your parents come down and stay with you? Why not ask your parents to come down now and just call in late for work? One way or antoher, you need to start looking for solutions to your problems and then acting on them with more initiative and resolve.

I am on it. When is it ok to let my wife back with the kids. When she signs NC order to OM?

Does your WW have an anger problem?

Also have you seen this?
DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

FOR NOW, just go along with supervised visits [WITH YOU] until she can demonstrate trustworthy behavior.

And you need to follow through on the plans here. For example, get that custody order signed. Get the background check run. Don't put this off anymore. It is real imporatnt that you follow through and be very action oriented, ok? Your kids need you to step up now.

I'm not sure which segment MelodyLane is talking about, but here they are.
Radio Clips from 11-11-13
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

OM background check came up clean. Checked the two states he's lived in. I ended up dropping the kids at neighbor of my inlaws and wife picked them up. I went to work tonight. I asked her when I could expect them back. She said Sunday night or monday morning, or never. She questioned whether I was able to properly watch my son during the day.

Child protective was here again today after speaking with WW and said WW was concerned that I relapsed with alcohol a few months ago. WW, me and kids will be subject to psychological evaluations, and I will go for substance abuse evaluation (which I'm not too concerned about).

I did check in to transferring my job to another loation in the same company that is close to my parents' house, but this is out of state, so am waiting to consult lawyer next week to see if that is even legal. They are willing to house us. I would be able to make a quick transfer, but my income is so low. My father in law lawyer says state come down hard on people who are not making enough to support kids. This has been an ongoing problem even with my wife's income and mine combined. I am doing what I can to get day hours and more pay,but not quick enough.

Should I be this blunt with the guidance counselor? I have not yet told her the details but my wife has told her that �we have agreed to divorce�. This is a consistent lie she has been using. Now I�m positive that is what she was telling OM the whole time. WW says I am being slandered, that people are saying I am an alcoholic and drug addict. OM�s wife apparently says I am a terrible father. Don�t know that my wife actually heard it from her though. She is concerned for my reputation. I am not so concerned, but I probably should just not be answering her calls.

[quote=MelodyLane]

You are going to have to be more proactive here and stop allowing life to "happen" to you. That is an alcoholic trait that I see going on here. You have children that must be protected.

[quote]

This certainly is something I have been dealing with my entire life, though I am finally changing that and feel good about standing up to my wife for my kids' sake instead of living in fear of her. This is the second time she has assaulted me in this magnitude, though the frst time I did not report it. She is not very often that violent but she does have a tendency to anger.

Yes you should be this blunt. Why on earth wouldn't you?? You are fighting for your kids here you need to tell the councellor the truth.

Yes, tell the full truth. And it is very typical that waywards will malign their spouses. That is why it is important for you to get the full truth out there. Your wife is not the least concerned about your reputation, that is ridiculous. She is saying this in order to scare you into silence.

Thanks all. I think my defences have been down a bit since i have not been sleeping much. My parents offered me use of one of their vehicles and i am on my way to get it now. I will try to get some rest tonight.

Your FIL is full of nonsense.
Half of the country is on food stamps and we have massive unemployment.
I haven't had the government knock on my door and take my kids away because I am low income

Except for the assault, the email I suggested is the exact email I sent to my kids school during my ex wife's affair

That won't be worth the paper its written on

As a general rule,
You are married so you both have custody.
If ahe leaves them with a third party you can appear and take your kids.
If anyone resists call the Police.
Do NOT let her take control of this. You NEED to take control immediately

I seems like i am in an unplanned plan B here.

Why do you say that?

i say that because i did not expect it to happen so soon and did not exactly plan how it was going to happen (ie. With restraining order)

You aren't in Plan B!

Plan B is very structured and closed off. It isn't possible for it to be 'unplanned'.

I would say 'stay in Plan A' but Plan A is the least of your concerns. You need to protect your children!! I don't understand how you can keep going off to work and leaving them in crisis to be collected by lord knows who. Would you do this if the house was unsafe?

Does your supervisor know that your wife is violent and in an affair? Have you even asked for some time to deal with this? Can you get your parents or someone (not your in laws) to protect them when you do go to work? Can you get.a babysitter or childminder?

What would you do if the house was flooding/on fire/falling in and you needed either time or help to get the kids somewhere safe?

Would you say: "I've got no personal time left, I've got to go to work"?

You'd ask for time and help and call it an emergency wouldn't you?

So why not now?

I am working on childcare. I will get kids tonight and don't have to go back to work until Wednesday at 6pm. You say stay in plan A while I'm going through this. I have been reading the book and am doing the best I can on plan A, while not really communicating to her, except through texts to arrange transfer of kids. I tried to return the iphone at the store but couldn't because they needed her debit card. Phone was reset though before I realized this and all of my daughters game apps and contacts were lost. I will try to be as honest with daughter as I can about why I tried to return it, and deal with her being upset the best I can. Wife wants phone back because it is in her name. Would getting it back be best for plan A since were are now committed to the service contract?

Also what about transferring money into joint bank account? I imagine she will take it out as fast as I put it in. I did put some in yesterday as she had the kids and all food is at my house.

Am I getting too caught up in details? Please let me know. I do want to plan A as best I can despite the circumstances.

Nope, you are not getting too caught up in details! You are thinking strategically which is GREAT. A very hard feat under these circumstances. I would move your money so she can't get her hands on it. She will wipe you out.

I don't really have an opinion on the phone. You might want to just give it back to her. You have enough conflict as it is without adding the issue of the phone.

I can't improve on ML's advice, moving the money is a good call (always protect the money and protect yourself legally). I don't think the phone really matters. The only thing that matters in Plan A is that you behave like a reasonable spouse who loves her but stands up to the A.

Note I said 'reasonable' not that you live up to whatever unreasonable waffle the wayward is spouting.

I suggest you install some games, and secret spyware.
Try to communicate with her more.
In fact I would say text is disabled

I went to the court to amend the temporary restraining order and added prior history of domestic violence that was not on the original. One incident was very similar to what happened last wee and a few other incidents that were not as intense. I was not able to change the custody at this time. The hearing officer told me that would be addressed at the hearing in two days. I will have my kids until then, but my wife asked to see them for a bit at the park after work today. I told her I would let her know. I will call the police to ask them if this does happen can I be present. The RO only keeps her from my home and work and says she may not follow or stalk me, not that we cannot be in the same place at the same time.

The transfer of kids last night back to me did not go well. We met in a parking lot outside my wife's meeting. While my wife and I were talking my daughter discovered that the iphone was reset and went crazy. She tried to run away. I eventually got her in the car and home, but took her a long time to calm down. The transition back to me was very difficult. The kids had calmed down after being with me for the few days last week. I will tell my wife I don�t think it is a god idea to see them tonight if they are coming back to my house for the night.

I am confused. It looks as if any chance of me getting custody I have to finalize the restraining order. How can I stay in plan A when we are separated by restraining order?

Well you can Plan A while separated.
Tranquil called Dr Harley and asked him this specific question on the Radio Show. Hopefully someone can post a link to that call, several months ago

At this point I think you should focus on your kids and securing custody.

Get custody any way I can?

Do you think I should let her see the kids at park while I am in attendance, if police say that is allowed according to restraining order.

If the Police say that it does not violate the restraining order, then going to the park would be a good opportunity to make Love Bank deposits.
But don't just be "in attendance"
Be an active participant: try to talk to her, play with the kids, maybe bring her a cup of coffee ?

Avoid love busters such as disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts and Keep THE VOICE RECORDER ON YOU AT ALL TIMES

As for custody, yes. I think your main focus should be getting custody as a stable structure for the kids
This may be your best opportunity with the restraining order.
You may want to email Dr Harley for advice on this.

Considering your WW violent behaviour recently and that you have a court hearing in 2 days I would suggest not going to the park. Your WW is desperate and is a fully foggy WW so I would not risk anything happening before the court date.

I suggest putting any plan A on hold until the court hearing is over and you secure your kids. Right now they are your priority and the way you have described their behaviour I am deeply concerned about their welfare.

Now she is pushing me to give up the kids to her til morning. I told hel that they would stay here. All of their belongings and food are here.

Does anyone know if since we both have custody if I have to give the kids up to her if she wants to see them? I think I am safe as long as I am in the house since she can not come here. Not able to get a hold of my attorney right now.

Good Plan Aing tends to involve presenting a pretty picture of 'what could be' while letting them feel the full impact of 'what'll happen if you keep acting so dumb'.

If it were me, I'd simply tell her you would LOVE to have her home with the kids, but that can't happen until her A is over and she is in better control of her temper.

Handing the kids over won't benefit you at all because (not only is it very unsafe) but her entire game plan circles around a family with you cut out of it. Keep yourself very central.

I'd just tell her that you and the kids have plans (paint a very rosy picture if you can that will make her feel very left out). Say things aren't formalised yet and she has to wait for court. If she complains say it wasn't your decision to split up the family and you are just keeping things stable while this goes through.

Then I'd do something with the kids to Plan A from afar, like make a picture for her or something that you can send her a photo of (if the kids want to). Remind her that no one else is ever going to be their dad.

Did you get custody added to your restraining order? I would not hand the kids over to her. She doesn't have a HOME and you have no idea where she would take them. Tell her you are going to let the courts handle the custody issue from here on out.

eden, is your wife an alcoholic or a drug addict? Does she have a job? Where is she staying now?

They would not let me change the custody today. They said that it would be addressed in court. I am not working til after that so I will be able to keep them with me. Would e-mail be best to communicate this with her? or text. I don't have good luck talking to her.

I have been thinking about the possibility of moving in with my folks, if I were able to get custody and they have offered that as a possibility. At the moment, from a purely financial standpoint, that seems like the best option, until I can get a better job. One concern I have is that there is a lot of love busting that goes on in their house, both between them and with me and my kids. This really affected me growing up, and has also been an issue for my brothers and their children.

No you do not.
If she comes to your home call the police

I suggest you send the following text:

We wont be able to make it today.
I hope we can see you soon.

Then turn off ylur phone so your evening isn't ruined

Of course you both have custody! Both parents have a right to see their children. She would have every right to take them as you do until a custody order is in place. That doesn't mean make it easy for her, but the police will tell you that you have to let them go. I speak from experience.

No. She is neither. She does not even drink. I am an alcoholic. Her farther did pass away when she was a teen though due drug issues. She avoids even over the counter drugs because of this. She also likely learned her anger/violence behaviors from him.

She is staying with her girlfriend, which is also where she took the kids when she had them. The friend has depression issues and often has multiple guy friends, one of which was married but going throuh a divorce. Though she does this, she has told WW from the start that the relationship with OM would come to no good.

She does have a jod. She started working two months ago because of our financial issues. Before that she had not worked out of the home since our nine year old waas born. I had gotten fired from my profssional job a year and a half ago and have been doing hourly retail work since then. Even before I got fired I had switched jobs often, and moved often, a result of my alcoholic thinking and not making decisions for myself. I have been really working my recovery in the last year and though employment has not improved, I feel a new sense of confidence lately. I know I have a lot of my own work to do on our marriage but I am now feeling the strength and determination to do it right. I am just hoping it is not too late.

It's never too late to do the right thing Eden, you are doing wonderfully.

All I would say is that in communications with your WW, be sure NOT to listen to her.

Waywards do not speak a word of sense so develop the art of skim reading texts and 'skim listening' in conversations.

Unless she says: "What have I done! My A is disgusting and I want to make amends" - you're on loudspeak only, delivering Plan A soundbites.

Men who have some regrets about the marriage, like yourself, tend to get a bit stuck here. They desperately want a chance to make amends and so listen to all the crazy wayward-speak their spouse gabbles. What's worse is they then respond - or believe!

Don't listen, just do, ok?

The best thing you can do for her is to kill the A.

OK. Thanks indiegirl

So you all are saying that I should get custody no matter what, even if it means keeping the restraining order? I am not sure how easy it is to get RO lifted once it is finalized.

I spoke with legal aid counselor yesterday and they told me that custody is a separate issue from the restraining order. This did not quite make sense to me because custody needs to be addressed at the RO hearing.

From the research I did online it may be an involved process to convince a judge to lift a final restraining order anytime soon. Wondering now if I should pursue custody but not the fimal restraining order.

I would leave the restraining order in place and do what you have to do to get custody of the kids. Your wife does not have a home and is very unstable right now. They don't need to be dragged all over the place to accommodate her affair.

Do what you have to do to protect your kids and then work on saving your marriage.

Do you have any idea why she is so unstable? Has she always been this unstable?

I believe there are issues stemming from her childhood.Her father had violence and drug issues. He had been abandoned by his mother for some time when he was very young. I'm trying to remember the first time showed this rage with me. There were certainly times before we had kids. Can't remember if it started before or after we were married. She had never been physically violent with me until after we had been married several years and had children. Instances before that involved throwing things, mainly, like dishware, but nt aimed at me.

I am wondering how much of what is going on with restraining order and A I should be revealing to the kids. My wife of course thinks it is damaging to discuss the OM with kids. I have not really said much about the A to them since I exposed to them last week. I know they are confused an emotional from not seeing their mother.

Dr Harley would encourage you to be honest with the children

Eden,

I am a single father. I exposed my wifes affair to the kids.
I exposed the OM dangerous background to the kids.
I told the kids they visit their mom in supervised visitation until she meets the court requirements.

Dr Harley encouraged all of the above.

Spoke with my legal counselor, and now I am not sure that the final restraining order is what I want to do, it would be permanent, thus making it difficult for us to ever be together again any time in the future.

Counselor said I would have to file separately for custody and this could not be done until restraining order was finalized or thrown out. The restraining order has an implied custody, but this is not ultimate custody (that would have to be done separately. I could request change in the implied custody on the restraining order and request an adjournment, but during that time I could not take the kids out of state to my parents. The adjournment would buy some time but make the judge mad if I really don�t want to keep the restraining order in place.

Counselor also brought up what is called a civil order, which I am going to do some research on. Don�t know much about it yet.

Legal aid said they would have an attorney counsel me on how to represent myself through custody hearings but won�t actually be there to represent me.

What does "implied custody" mean? That you have custody?

I encourage you to seek custody and do not drop the restraining order.
At this point you need to place the welfarr of yhe kids above your marriage.

If you like you can email Dr Harley directly for advice
Typically he places child safety above marital recovery

The implied custody is that specified in restraining order. Final custody would have to be determined in a custody hearing, separate from restraining order hearing. It is still a bit confusing to me and am trying to clarify with lawyer.

Civil order of custody is what I have.
You want the police order. It carries a lot more weight

If you drop the restraining order, she will possibly get the kids and get an order against you.
So for the sake of your kids don't drop it

The legal counselor brought up that if my wife is represented by a lawyer tomorrow, they may propose what is called civil restraint. It can be similar in terms to a restraining order but is not enforced by police if it i broken. Instead if one party vilated civil restraint, the other party has to file a motion with the court and then monitary restitution is paid.

Then you need to tell the judge: "I need protection because she is violent towards me"

How do I get to e-mail Dr. Harley directly?

Send your email to: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.
Include your phone number so he can call you if needed.

Thanks Jedi_Knight

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

In my state restraining orders are permanent, they are not reviewed or renewed as in some other states. Though my online research shows that they can be vacated by the court given certain criteria. It is likely that much time would have to pass and would admit to not fearing her anymore. I am considering adjournment to give more time t plan and think. I could not take them out of state though during adjournment.

The other consideration have to make is if I don't finalize RO and pursue custody, I may not get custody if WW comes up with enough on me to keep that from happening. I have heard that courts generally side with mother in custody cases.

What are your thoughts on whether or not taking kids to my parents would be best for kids.Financially it is right now because they would help with childcare. But I am concerned about lovebusting in their home.

I don't think the court will allow you to leave the state, possibly not the county.

I suggest you contact the local welfare agencies for assistance

Do you attend a church?

I do not regularly attend church, though my kids go to religious education. My wife had been teaching my son's religious ed class. I don't know if she is able to still teach with her pending charges. She did not teach last Sunday, according to my son.

Just a quick clarification:

In Marriage Builders terminology, "lovebusting" and "lovebusters" refer to behaviors which can diminish feelings of romantic love between spouses. Since the terms refer to behaviors within the context of a romantic relationship, they don't apply to parent/child relationships.

Have you exposed her affair to the church and religous ed parents?
If not do so immediately.

I encourage you to reach out to a church, one that has family programs.
They can help you, as they have I, with raising kids

This is correct. Protect your children first. You don't have to email Dr Harley to find that out, he is very clear on that.

Actually the terms apply to the behavior.
In the article below, Harley describes the child's behavior as "Love Busting"
The term is not exclusive to married couples.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5031b_qa.html

MelodyLane, to clarify, would you recommend finalizing the restraining order as opposed to doing a civil restraint or completely removing the RO and then fighting for custody?

I have no idea. Whatever will best protect your children and protect you from her assaults. Since you don't have the money to fight for custody I tend to think it would be better to finalize the RO since it is more immediate. That being said, I am no legal expert.

I understand. Thanks

Jedi: In the article to which you referred, Dr. Harley used the term to describe the negative effect of the child's behavior on the spouses' feelings of romantic love for each other. Dr. Harley didn't use the term to describe the effect on the parent/child relationship; he used the term to describe the effect on the parents' romantic relationship. Do you see the distinction? Dr. Harley was explaining that the child's behavior was ruining the parents' feelings of romantic love for each other; that's why Dr. Harley referred to it as a "lovebuster."

Sorry to start an agrgument on love busters and childre. Maybe love busting isn't the proper term but I was referring to behaviors or actions on my parents part that negatively impact healthy emotional growth of children. Any thoughts on how to communicate with my parents about my concerns, whether or not we actually move in with them? They will obviously be a part of their lives anyway.

Sorry to get sidetracked! Your description of your parents reminds me of my own parents. I couldn't handle living with my parents for any period of time, and I know my kids couldn't either... What about your brothers? Do you have an unmarried sibling that you and your kids could stay with?

I don't talk to my brothers, both married and have kids. There are issues with them, probably because of my parents. Even if I was granted custody in the final restraining order, in order to move out of state the judge would require further court dates to discuss custody before I request permission to move out of state.

Actually, despite our issues my one sister in law ad told my parents (I have not spoken with her directly for a couple of years) that she is very adamant about my kids being in their home state, which is not the one we are in now. I sould probably talk to her. they have four kids, two of which are about the ages of mine.

Whould you rather have done an RO. If so, why?

Because yhe police are doing all the work for you.
And they enforce their orders more than civil orders.

I am preparing for my RO hearing and it is crazy but I am still questioning a tiny bit going forward with finalizing the RO. I know this sounds crazy but I guess I have some fear of totally losing WW love and losing all chance of recovering marriage. Not sure yet if the judge wil approve finalr RO but if he does I will only be able to have contact with WW via a sisngle method and strictly to communicate about the kids. With this communication barrier would it ever be possible for her to let me know if she does want to end contact with OM (she has still been contacting him, if not meeting up with him)? Am I crazy to even want that at this point, or should I just give up with her?

Keep the ro. It is your best chane to protect your kids and yourself. You may not get another chance as good

While it may make recovering your marriage harder, the prospects of that are low anyway

It will help the prospects of recovering from the hell your living now

What does DD stand for?

Dear daughter

I faced similar concerns.
Why do you think you are afraid of loosinf her love?
She is having an affair. That's not showing love towards her.
All you are doing is allowing her to face the natural consequences of her actions: if she chooses to assault someone, the state takes steps to protect that person from her uncontrollable behavior.

She can turn this around but its up to her. Giving her a pass will not help her or your child

I had my FRO hearing yesterday. I was representing myself, as legal aid attorney can only counsel me, not represent in court. WW lawyer came to me before court to propose civil restraint, as expected. I requested an adjournment to consider the civil restraint. I am waiting to hear back from her lawyer on specific proposal for terms of civil restraint.

I requested custody and supervised visitation but judge would not change that yesterday, saying it would be addressed at the next hearing in ten days, and because child protective services is involved. Judge did clarify clear parenting times, as I brought up concern about wife having kids overnight (citing that their belongings, food and school materials are all at my house), though I failed to mention any information about the A and OM (stupid). She gets them for two to three hours the next few days and I�ll have them from Sunday night through Friday morning after Thanksgiving. I talked to my sister in law (my brothers wife) and exposed everything to her. I will be taking the kids there for Thanksgiving, though I have not mentioned his to the kids yet. I think they are still expecting t go to mother in law�s house as we were planning before exposure and assault. My wife will have kids all day Friday after Thanksgiving, but I�ll get them back that evening.

I spoke with WW today reiterating that to have any negotiations that her relationship with OM must end and that she have no contact with him. She said that she has not and will not have him around children the assault. This was confirmed by my kids, though they did say they heard her talking to OM on phone. From her cell phone call records I can tell that she has been calling OM daily for extended periods of time. I am sure she�s texting to though I don�t have records of texts. She said that as a result of exposure there was a blowup in OM family and he�s been disinvited to Thanksgiving, etc. Too bad, so sad.

She says she thinks that I am not looking out for the best interests of the kids in not letting her have them overnight. She had them for a few hours last night and the transition back to me went horribly. My son did not want to get out of the car and would not let go of the seatbelt. After 30 min. of us both trying to get him out she was able to bring him to door of my apartment, where son still did not want her to leave. I told her that she should just go when I closed the door so the police would not see, since it is supposed to be curbside dropoff. I actually let her come in to lay down with him in bed to try to put him to sleep! She was inside for about 5-10 min. unsuccessful at getting him to sleep in his distraught state. She eventually left and he calmed down, eventually falling asleep crying for mommy.

Today I took my son with me to my substance abuse evaluation and to a lawyer consultation (while he played in another room). He did not want to go with my mother in law while I went to my appointment, even though she agreed to watch him. Tonight�s bedtime was uneventful. It was the first night in a long time that he did not even mention mommy or ask to call her. He was calm all night.

I am still going back and forth about the civil restraint vs. final RO. I�m sure that her proposal will not be in my best interest, and I have not yet sent her attorney a proposal of my own.

Don't send him any proposal.
My attorneys standard operating procedure is to ignore offers from other attorneys if they arent in your best interest.

At this point, I suggest you email Dr Harley for advice on how to proceed.

You should document everything.
Also keep a recorder on you at all times.

As conflict develops in her affair, she will start having angry ou tbursts with her affair partner!

And I would not help her at the curbside.
Let her fight with the son.
Stick to the rules.
These arr choices she made

Do not give up your position. You are in the drivers seat and can control the outcome for your kids sake.
Proceed with the hearing adn RO, you got played by the attorney.

Since you are representing yourself, you are at an extreme disadvantage.
Attorneys know the judges, the clerks, the stenographers, these all work against the pro se litigant.
They probably wont even send you a proposal, or it will ask for the moon.

Search for fathers rights groups in your area.
They can give you advice on fighting in the courts

Your getting good advice. I'm sorry that you have to go through this painful moment in your life. Just remember your kids need a same parent and that's you. God bless.

You are absolutely correct. Her lawyer did send me a proposal which basically said that the kids will reside with her in an apartment that she will procure in the same town, and I would get to keep the �marital apartment,� and of course we would have to look at support from me for the children since they would be living with her. He cited the kids being �traumatized� at bedtime screaming for mommy (although that did not happen last night for the first time in a while). If I were willing to accept this I would have moved out a year ago when she asked me to move out and we could have avoided having an attorney involved. But this is not what I want. I did not respond.

It seems much clearer to me now that I will go through with finalizing the RO. I can�t be sure yet what will happen with custody though, since child protective will be weighing in on this. I was very clear with them about the details of the A and OM contact with my children. Unfortunately I set a precedent in the eyes of the judge by not requesting custody in the initial temporary RO, and allowing her to take the kids last weekend. Yesterday I had misinterpreted the details of the parenting time in the RO and she does actually have them for the entire weekend until Sunday night (though I will have them Sunday night through Friday morning. She has still been calling OM even now when children are in her care.

When she came to pick them up tonight she came to the door again and she asked to hug me. I am not inclined to call the police but I need to be more firm with her about sticking to what is written in the RO. Even child protective told me I should do this when I spoke with them. Curbside means curbside, not come to the door.

You have a hard time being firm.
She doesn't want a hug.
Shes having an affair and wants to destroy you.
She wants the kids and a new apartment for her and OM.
I hope you have followed advice and have a recorder on you at all times.

When she leaves the curb call the POLICE.
Do not help her with the kids.
The best thing that could happen would be for her to get cited for violating the restraining order.

You really need an attorney
Don't reply or talk to her attorney in any way until you speak to an attormey or the guy from legal aid

Set up a video recorder to record the pick up/drop offs.
Secretly, hidden.
I think she will get frustrated getting the son out and have angry outbursts on video.
Or come to the house and have them with you. (On video)

Note: The purpose of this forum is to provide MB advice and concepts.
We are not supposed to give legal advice; there are legal forums out there that can.
I suggest you email Dr Harley and ask him if he thinks you should be in Plan A or go into Plan B if the restraining order goes through.
I do know that he would encourage you to follow any existing order and not violate the order

Yesterday I got a lead on a more local legal services assistance. Since I meet the income requirements they said they are able to represent me in court. The soonest they can meet with me is next Wednesday, the last business day before my RO hearing he following Monday. Unfortunately it took this long to find them but I'm sure it will be better than me going it alone.

You're doing really well. As I am sure you are now aware, the kids distress is really her problem. She tries to make it about you, but your son was only acting up for her benefit to try and shake her out of her strangeness. As soon as she goes, he's fine, isn't he?

I think your lawyer needs to know how much she has been subjecting them to her boyfriend and that she continues to call him in front of them.

The hug thing is just the classic 'uh oh I'm in trouble on my own' WW response. As is the whole OM dumped by family thing. Fantastic!

Trouble is definitely brewing in affair-land.

I definitely do have a hard time being firm, in all aspects of my life, though it has recently been getting much better.

That is exactly what she wants. She even asked me two days before exposure and the assault if I could possibly find somewhere else to stay. Of course I said no.

She says the hug wll help the children get through things, to see that we are still "friends". She may really believe this or it may just add support to her outward show to others that everything is OK and I am OK with it. I think it gives them mixed messages, as it did when we got back together so soon after the other time she assaulted me in a similar way. Or she may just want to smell my breath to see if I have have been drinking.

I have not gotten a voice recorder yet but I think I will get one today.

Okay, listen to me and listen good....the reason she's coming into the house and asking for hugs is to use as evidence at the RO Hearing to prove you're not afraid of her because you allowed her to do all these things. You can't change what's already happen but stop it NOW. If you are cross-examined on the instances that already happen, your answer is, "She's so volatile I was afraid if I didn't that she would go off on me again liked he did the night I called the police." You also need to be aware there is a good chance she recorded those exchanges. What state are you in? In some states, only the consent of one of the parties is required to record. In other states, the consent of both parties is required.

NJ

NJ is a one party consent state which mean as a party to the conversation, the fact that she consents allows her to record her conversations with her. Please take on the advice I provided earlier today re: allowing her in the house and hugs.

I guess that goes for me to is I want to record. I just got a revorder now.

Good.
Be thankful you have the restraining order.
I slept withe the recorder In my pants because my wife would kick the locked bedroom door in and talk to me if she felt like it!

now please emal Dr Harley and ask him how he recommends you proceed if the restraining order is continued or released (ie plan A or plan B)
Give him your name and number so you can be on the radio show and that way he can ask you queations and give you his best advice

Now I am wishing I had the recorder sooner, like when I confronted OM and when the assault occrred. Oh well, it is what it is. I will certainly have it on any time I'm around my wife.

Also set up a video recorder to record her curbside dropoffs

I voice recorded a convo i had with WW this morning. I told her again that to have any discussion about our future she would have to have no contact with OM. She did not yet say she wouldnt contact him. I am still trying to do plan a stuff during this. Is mentioning the A ok? I will be emailing Dr. Harley after work today. Anyu thoughts? I know according to the RO I am only sposed to contact her about the children.

Be SURE and tell Dr Harley about her physical assaults. That makes a huge difference in how he would handle this.

And I like that you told her that there is no future unless she ends her affair. I would reiterate that on a regular basis.

Today she requested to keep kids over night tonight even though according to RO I would have the. She said that if I were to give a little on this thay she would "consider" no contact with OM. I AM GOING TO TELL her that I want them for tonight because she has an alanon meeting to go to and to keep consisancy of morning weekday routine that they have had with me. Should I be concerned that she might not consider NC if I dont let her have kids tonight?

Just let her know you will consider letting the kids stay overnight when she a) ends her affair and b) obtains a stable home.

Oh wait, I forgot she does have some visitation. In that case, let her know you will consider more visitation time when she ends all contact with the OM and obtains a stable home.

What concerns me with your ww is that spouses of alcoholics usually have traits that draw them towards alcoholics.
That's why I suspect OM probably is an alcoholic or addict.
Where did she meet him?
Hopefully she didn't meet him at Alanon

If she has an alanon sponsor you should expose to the sponsor too

I did expose to her alanon sponsor. She did not meet OM at alanon but she has told me she was somewhat concerned about his habits. Her father did have addict issues and passed of accidental od when she was in her teens. She told me OM has an alcoholic/addict female friend that he has let stay at his apartment and sleep in car in his driveway on occassion. He does seem to drink a bunch. He is known to go to bars to meet women and some of his previous facebook pics were bar scenes. About a year and a half ago (before present OM) WW did go on a couple of 'dates' to a bar with a man she met in alanon. Just two dates that I know of, but she has texted him occasionally since then, but we have since moved out of state away from him.

How many affairs has she had?

She is so accustomed to poor boundaries that she may prefer being a renter and never commit to becoming a buyer in this marriage

I'm pretty sure that's it in terms of actually meeting up. Early in our marriage she would occasionally call an old long term boyfriend when we were having issues, but that had stopped several years ago when he got married and had kids (seems like it stopped at his request). In the past five years she had some email/facebook contact with another male friend from her past, but I don't think it came to meeting up (he is married also). I think present OM was just more convenient for her, geographically close and family of her best friend. As I have said she has been much more honest with me about these contacts than most people might expect, telling me as they happened. I guess back then I just didn�t know what to do about it or didn�t have the tools or confidence to stand up for myself in the situations. My AA program and sponsor have been extremely helpful in this regard and I have only recently begun t have the confidence to make my own decisions and take action.

It sounds like she has continuously been looking for hookups and has probably had other affairs. If not physical, then certainly emotional affairs. She has a renters approach to marriage, for sure. That means that she is always open for business. If you do end up discussing reconciliation, that would have to be a major change for her.

The dropoff of the kids to me last night went better than last time. I had the recorder on. my son resisted for a while. I told him he would be seeing mommy again in a few days. He still didn't want to get out of the car. I was about to let her take him and leave my daughter with me when I reminded him that I was going to make hot cocoa. He then calmly got out of the car and came with me. There was no crying after that and he did not even talk about mommy or ask to call her all night. Though my daughter tried calling her to sk if she could buy a game app for the iphone (I told her I could not pay for it right now).

WW called this morning with a seemingly sincere desire to have the family back together. She is really starting to feel the effects of not being with the kids much, as well as the stress of the situation affecting her at work as well as taking days off work to go to court. I reiterated to her the condition of no contact with OM, but that because of RO we would have to wait until the hearing. I don�t think I am ready to give in yet, before the RO hearing, and after the holiday weekend.

I am still waiting to hear from Dr. Harley. In the meantime, my question is, if I were to drop the RO now, what kind of chance would I have first for her to agree to no contact with OM, and if she does continue to contact him, what would be a practical way to do plan B without the RO in place and no funds to afford her a separate apartment. Though I guess she could continue to stay with her girlfriend and I could get locks changed on my apartment. If RO is not finalized, moving with the kids out of state to my parents without WW permission would not be possible.

at this point pursue the restraining order.

I got an email back from Dr. Harley. This is what he said:

Hi,

Exposure has many advantages, and one of them is to speed up the inevitable. If the marriage has a chance, it usually ends the affair quickly, but if there�s no chance, it speeds up a divorce. In your case, I�d consider a divorce to be almost the only reasonable end to your relationship. To continue living with your wife who is in love with another man, totally disregards your feelings by flaunting her affair under your nose, and is also physically violent toward you is asking for permanent injury or even death. I�ve known of many cases where a wife having an affair has tried to kill her husband and in some cases has succeeded. So far everything you have done is very wise, even though the outcome is not what you wanted. You can�t make your wife do the right thing. I would advise you to not drop the restraining order for your protection. I counseled a couple in a similar situation where the husband got a restraining order and was able to get a judge�s order to move his children to another state where he could have the assistance of his parents to raise the children. He is now a police officer and the children are doing very well. His wife had the option of moving to where he lives to be closer to the children but she refused, not wanting to leave her lover.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley



From:
Date:
To: <mbradio@marriagebuilders.com>
Subject: Please advise on long term affair situation

Dear Dr. Harley,

I am writing you upon the recommendation of some members on the infidelity discussion group on your website. I have been on the discussion group for almost three weeks, since I first discovered MarriageBuilders. I will give you the back story first then ask your advice on how to proceed at the end.

A few weeks ago I had had all I could take of my wife�s (we have been married for 13.5 years) long term affair and began looking for outside help, other than her parents and our marriage counselor (who was not helpful in helping to end the affair). We have two children, a nine year old daughter and six year old son. The affair began a year ago October when my wife was reintroduced to the other man at a birthday party of the child of my wife�s best girlfriend, where I was not in attendance due to work. The OM is the brother of my wife�s best friend, whom she had originally met shortly before she met me (over 16 years ago). They had gone on a single date together at that time, but no real chemistry happened at that time, according to my wife.

Since early in our marriage we have had issues meeting each other�s emotional needs. I am a recovering alcoholic with just about two years sober now, and have had issues with pornography in the past, but have been controlling that in the last year. My wife has been asking me to move out and asking for separation more seriously for the past year, though I never intended to leave or agree to separation. My wife has occasionally seeked out other men to talk to, mainly an old long term boyfriend, which had ended when he got married and had kids (on his request). Back to the current affair which is by far the most scarring for me. After she had been reintroduced to the OM he began texting her, initially pictures from the birthday party, then texting became regular. I told her to stop and I even texted the OM to stay away from my wife. No success. The relationship progressed to phone calls while I was working nights. She eventually would even be so blatant as to stay on the phone with him after I had gotten home for the night. At this point, about five months in, I finally found and scheduled an appointment with a marriage counselor. Y wife and I began going to counseling once a week. During this time WW began going out on date with OM, against my wishes. He would pick her up from our house after I got home from work. At one point my wife and kids had a sleepover at his sister�s house (they live in same town) and my wife snuck out of the house after everyone was asleep to go to OM�s house. The friend woke up when she was gone. The friend and her husband were very upset at both my wife and OM and the friend did not let her spend the night again, until a few weeks ago.

The marriage counselor recognized that the affair was not good, but was not really giving us the tools we needed to stop it. As the affair progressed WW spent a couple overnights at OM�s house. After one of these she admitted to me that they had sex. She was very guilt ridden when she told me, and she also admitted to our counselor. A few months ago I exposed the affair to WW parents but did not go into detail. I just said that she was seeing another man. They were obviously upset and WW and OM contact cooled down for a little while. Then it started up again, about a month and a half ago. She began spending two to three nights a week out late with him or spending the night at his place. She would leave before the kids went to bed, saying she was going to a meeting, or out with her girlfriend. She would return the next morning before the kids woke up. She even began having the OM over to our house when I was working and he children were home. I told her to stop this but it continued. She also took my kids over to his house and out in public with OM and his two daughters. This really enraged me.

This brings me up to the point where I found MarriageBuilders a few weeks ago and after a couple of days on the discussion forum I exposed the affair to WW friends and family, my family, and friends and family of the OM, as well as my children. When WW discovered that I had exposed via phone calls and facebook private messages she was livid. She came home from work that might and immediately began verbally accosting me which quickly progressed to a physical assault, hitting me and threatening me with a kitchen knife. This is not the first time that she has been physical with me. There have been a handful of more minor incidents (slapping, punching, grabbing). There was one very similar incident a year and a half ago where she hit me, ripped my glasses off my face, threatened me with a kitchen knife and bit me on the forehead, all while the children were home. That incident occurred shortly after I was fired from my job and we were under great financial and emotional stress.

When she assaulted me two weeks ago after I exposed the affair I called the police. My children were home at the time and they saw WW and me struggling but did not see the knife. WW was arrested upon admission of threatening me with the knife (a mandatory arrest in domestic cases when a weapon is involved). I told them I did not want to press charges but it didn�t matter. The kids went with my mother in law who lives a few blocks away. At the police station I gave my statement and requested a temporary restraining order. She has been out of the house since then. When I got the order I did not request custody of the children, since I work nights, and do not have family that could watch the kids at night. My in laws said they would not provide childcare as long as my wife and I are separated. They are in support of working on the marriage. We had a hearing last Wednesday, which I had adjourned to consider WW attorney proposal for civil restraint (I am not yet being represented by an attorney, but am working on it). At the hearing the judge clarified parenting time, since there was no change in custody. I have kids during the week and she has them Friday night to Sunday night, at least until the next hearing.

I have been reading �Surviving an Affair� and reading all I can on your website about plans A and B. I want to know if you recommend pursuing a final restraining order or not. WW has said that she would �consider� no contact with OM if I loosen up and allow her more parenting time than is written in the temporary restraining order. My question is, not knowing if she would actually follow through with no contact at this point, would I be able to plan n appropriate plan B if necessary if I drop the restraining order? My parents, who live out of state said that hey would house me and my children if I were able to gain custody, But I can not move them out of state until RO is finalized and I get permission from the judge. Financially I can not afford to just rent another place unless I maintain restraining order, though I do have sole possession of the apartment we are in and my wife is not allowed back here. If I finalize the restraining order I can request financial support from my wife to support the children (she started a full time job two months ago).

Please advise me on what you think would be the best way to proceed. The folks on the discussion forum recommended I email you directly.

Sincerely,

Well done, Eden. I'm sorry you're going through this. Dr. Harley has given you the advice you need.

Eden,
I think you're in a similar boat with me.
I can assure you, things will improve.

At this point, based on Dr Harleys letter, I think you should stop Plan A.
Be polite and civil and focus on getting an attorney.
DO NOT HELP HER GET THE KID OUT OF THE CAR
DO NOT TALK TO HER

IF YOU LIKE, I AM WILLING TO ACT AS AN EMAIL INTERMEDIARY FOR YOU

Thanks for the offer, Jedi Knight. I�ll let you know.

Last night WW heard of my plans to take kids out of state to my brother's house for tonight and Thanksgiving day. She actually called my mother and was using any excuse she could to get me not to go: the stormy weather, my family will probably be serving and drinking alcohol, poor interactions with my daughter and my brother's kids in the past. She called me and tried to berate me with this as well, but I had to cut her short then stopped answering the phone (she actually had called my daughter's phone to talk to me). I was not answering her calls. She was extremely upset that I had not told her my intentions of taking them out of state for the holiday and that I have not been telling her who has been babysitting the kids or where I take them the past two weeks. I know that if I told her she just would have gotten angry sooner. I didn�t tell her this but I had already checked with an attorney and confirmed that I do not have to tell her where I take the kids, before or after the fact. She said that because I have not been telling her details about the kids� whereabouts and plans that she is feeling �vindictive.� I did not respond to that but that is not a great thing for her, considering the RO and her pending criminal charges.

My mother in law watched the kids for me last night while I went to a substance abuse evaluation and she heard that we would be going to my family for Thanksgiving. She cautioned me about it because she said when my wife was young and my MIL had a restraining order on wife�s father she was sent to summer camp out of state, just 20 miles away, and her father got the court involved an it got to be uncomfortable for my MIL. So she didn�t tell me not to go but cautioned me that it might be more trouble than it is worth.

As for transferring the kids I am going to propose that we start dropping and picking them up at my mother in laws� house or the neighbor so we don�t have the arguments we�ve been having.

Later she texted me that she expects to pick up the kids at 5pm sharp today, which is not her time to get them. According to RO, she will get them back Friday morning. I�m not sure why she is expecting this, but I plan to be on the road before 5 anyway.

I am scheduled to meet with a lawyer tomorrow who will possibly represent me n court so I can review all of this information with him to make sure I am within the law.

WW is sill at least calling the OM

On the possibility of me moving in with my parents out of state:

As I have said before I do have some reservations about me and the kids living with my parents, to the absence of showing love and criticism toward bothe me and my kids. My parents rarely even call to talk to the kids. Part of this though may be that they are scared of my wife, who has occasionally called my folks complaining about me and their criticisms of her, and the kids. They have gotten somewhat better on the criticism lately and I am improving on setting my boundaries and calling them on their criticism and other garbage.

I suppose if I do move in with them I can know that it can be temporary until I can get on my feet financially and get my own place. I do think it may be the best thing to move out of state if I aim to have no contact with WW.

My only other option seems to be stay where I am and get much higher income quick, but it will have to be uch higher as have no support from my family here and am unsure of how much support WW family will offer if I proceed with finalizing the RO and remain separated from WW.

I realize I am mainly just thinking out loud here but would like your opinions on just how damaging living with my folks could be to me and my children.

The other factor is that my family still drinks alcohol, though they are supportive of my sobriety. I have been ok not drinking when I am at their house and family functions, but living with them may put a bit more pressure on. I will discuss this with my sponsor.

I think moving in with your family would be a disaster. They are not supportive of your family and it sounds like it would be a breeding ground for temptations for you. I would focus on getting on your feet where you are now. Don't just transfer dependency to someone else. And I agree with your idea of doing child exchanges with the neighbor. It doesn't seem your MIL is going to be too helpful.

some cities and counties offer child exchange locations. I have heard that some organizations such as the Salvation Army also offer that service

It has been a couple days since I posted because Wednesday was full with trip to legal services and talking with attorney who will represent me in court, which took most of the day. Then I got kids ready to travel and went to my brother's house out of state from Wednesday night until late last night. The attorney got another adjournment granted to hve time to prepare the case, but we don't have a date yet as court was closed for the holiday weekend.

Wednesday morning my wife was texting me that she really wanted to get back together, not just for kids' sake, but also that that is what kids want. I did not respond. While was with the lawyer she texted me that she lost her job. This is possible, but I still am wondering if this is true. She had been talking about other people in her office being fired/laid off recently. Herdirect supervisor was actually let go two weeks after WW started the new job a couple months ago. She texted that she hoped I had another plan to support the kids. She has not talked about the job loss since.

After I met with lawyer I picked up my kids from childcare and came back to my apartment to get ready for the trip to my family. When I pulled into the parking lot I saw WW car here. I proceeded into the apartment with my kids and found my wife was inside the apartment. In all that has happened in the last two weeks I never thought of taking her key away. I will work on getting management to change locks.

Now, I did not call the police while she was here. I did not want to have a big scene in front of the children. I did call police several hours later that night after I had arrived at my family�s house, so it is on record now that she was in violation. While she was here I focused on packing the kids bags for the trip. She wanted to talk to me and hug and even kiss me. This was really awkward. She asked why I was avoiding her if I really ultimately wanted to work on the marriage. I told her it didn�t feel right, right now. She reiterated that she said she was willing t end contact with OM but when I suggested a NC letter she said she would be uncomfortable with that. After about 15 minutes we all left the apartment and went our separate ways.

By the time I arrived at my family I had been contacted by the police from the town where WW is staying. An officer told me WW had been in and filed a complaint of harassment against me, regarding the exposure letters I had sent out. She had told them that she believed that I was till contacting people, which I have not since before the assault two weeks ago.

I have not informed my attorney about this yet but will email her today. She is out of office until Monday.

I just have a couple questions as I proceed to try to finalize the restraining order:

1. If I am using the RO as part of plan, and assuming I go into full plan B, how will I know when WW means business about NC with OM? Should I bother telling her that I know she is still contacting him (at least by phone)?

2. If and when a WW comes around to recovery, at which point will I reveal MB and all discussion I have done with you all regarding exposure, spying, etc?

3. As RO is still not finalized, what are your recommendations if I am to get a final RO but not able to get custody of kids? My attorney told me I hada good case to get RO finalized but she was not so sure I would get custody based on what I have told her. Though child protective is deeply involved and will need to weigh in on custody issue, they move slowly. Mine and the kids� psychological evaluations are scheduled mid through late December.

Just a little aside as to how it went with my family for the holiday: There was no drinking (visible at least)at either my parents' or my brother's house. My kids really had a great time with my brother's kids. My sister in law is very supportive. She is a tough woman. She was divorced with a son before she married my brother. My parents offered money to hel me with rent until I can get a better job, move to a cheaper apartment or in with them, or apply for soicial services. My mother is coming to visit for the weekend to watch kids while I work, as I will have kids all weekend.

If you decide to go into Plan B, you would have an intermediary.


Never. Your resources should never be revealed. If you reconcile, you can bring her to MB but I would ask the moderators to remove your thread.


I would finalize the RO since she has assaulted you. AND get the locks changed today!!


You do realize your wife can't file a "harassment" suit based on letters you sent to others, right? And it is not against the law in the US to tell the truth. She has filed a frivolous complaint that will not have any legs. Does she want to go to court and have you bring the evidence of her affair? Because that is the outcome of her actions. She did this to harass you, but it will blow back on her.

You need to call the police the next time she comes.
Let them physically remove her.

I keep a copy of my custody order in my wallet at all times.
Make sure you keep a copy of yhe restraining order on you at all times

Eden,

You handled the situation on Wednesday well, and that is great news regarding the support that your family will be giving you. I would at this point keep the focus on the kids and getting a better job.

Your WW is now feeling the full consequences of her choices. The fantasy bubble is popped, yet its clear that she is still not willing to let go of the crack pipe.

If you are in Plan A remember that your communications with her must show that you love her and make it clear that if she decides to end her affair and truly recover the marriage that you will work with her to ensure a loving relationship.

If you are close to Plan B, then you need to draft your Plan B letter that will also be written in a loving way.

Otherwise its Plan D.

You are being strong and doing very well in this difficult situation. Keep on keeping on, brother.

She is wanting to keep the kids tonight, when i am supposed to have them back tonight and all weekend. I will try to taext her one more time to get them back, then threaten to call police, and if i have to i'll call them.

I would just call the police dont bother to text her again she is goading you into a fight to use against you at court.

Please be more careful when dealing with her. Unfortunately your reluctance to act quickly is causing you many issues

Not contacting the school and child services first and informing them of her affair has cost you a well needed advantage.

Not contacting the police when she was at your home immediately has left an opportunity for her to go to the police and file a frivolous charge against you.

Not contacting the police when she has broken her restrictions before has led to you being complacent to her behaviour. She can now claim you permitted her access to your home and risk your RO.

Please start to act more quickly and take your wife wayward behaviour seriously as it should be taken with all seriousness.

Call the police this time and let them deal with it. Remove yourself from a harmful situation and show her you are serious about sticking to the rules of the Ro. You keep enabeling her dispicable behaviour and that's only going to lead to more unnecessary suffering for all parties involved, least of all the kids.

Don't text her.
If the kids aren't dropped off on time call the police

Actually, without anything signed by a judge regarding custody, she doesn't have to give the kids back. I have dealt with the police about this before when kiss called the cops on me for not letting him see the kids. They won't intervene in custody issues, they will only arrive for a domestic dispute and make sure it is resolved safely.

Have you looked into getting custody through family court?

For child exchanges, you can also use the lobby of your local police department.

It's not a custody issue it's an RO issue that has gone before a judge already and there are strict rules in place for the children. This poster is already wasting time by not taking the appropriate immediate actions required to adhere to the RO stipulations, see page 10/11 of this thread for the full picture.

I went to the house where she is staying and texted her to please send the kids out. When she did not respond I called the police. They talked to her, then interviewed the children separate from her. They told me the kids said to them that they wanted to stay with her until Sunday night. As Rocketqueen said they could not make the kids leave. So I did what I could tonight and I will have the kid back Sunday night. I believe I am starting to get some balls, though I have gotten a late start. Parenting time after Sunday will have to be negotiated through the lawyers, since the RO hearing has been adjourned further. I will ask my attorney if I can start a custody case before the RO is finalized. Again, from what my attorney knows so far she was not so sure that I would get custody, but time will tell.

So this weekend I will focus on working and finding a better job.

I was reviewing the Guys. Come On. Assault the Ambush. Last night which was helpful to me. I have been practicing the �You tell �em I�m comin,� and hell�s comin� with me! You hear?� line throughout the day. It helps.

Did you show the police your court order?
I thought the judge specified parenting time

It was my mistake not to request custody of the kids when I initially got the TRO. The judge at the hearing did not change custody at all pending child protective recommendations, at the final hearing, which I don't yet have an exact date for since the adjournment was requested when the court was closed for the holiday week.

I did show them the TRO. Still they said they could not make the kids leave. I think this really has to do with the fact that there was no change of custody when I initiated the RO.

Also, the friend with whom my wife is staying was/is dating a cop on the police force that was involved tonight, and may know other cops. I'm not sure that that really had any influence tonight or not.

I would not do plan A or Plan B
Just try to get full custody, based on Dr Harleys advice to you

I understand it's an RO issue, but it has nothing to do with the kids and seems as flimsy as the paper it's on since there has still been contact between Eden and his WW.

Eden, it wouldn't have mattered. I work for a large police agency and knew one of the cops that came to my house and I still had to let the kids go with their Dad. The cops hands are tied unless you have a judge signed doc with specific custody arrangements. I urge you (as the police already did, I'm sure) to get that as soon as you can. It can take a while to get a hearing.

Eden,
Hang in there and just focus on your kids.
Also there is a group you may wanr to check out: Parents Without Partners.

When she starts yhreatening you with a kitchen knife that's it.
She's crazy and you need to protect your kids from her

I got the lock on my apartment changed today. I don't think she came back in after she left the ther day, but it won't happen again.

I have a question about talking with my kids abut this whole situation. How much is appropriate to tell the kids about court proceedings and judge's ruling on parenting time, since my wife is "letting the kids decide" which one of us they want to go with? Also, how much do I tell them about why WW and I are apart right now? They know about the A already, since I exposed to them. And they witnessed part of the physical assault, though not the knife part. I have told them that because mommy hurt me that we need some time apart, and relate that to how physical altercations between the kids have been handled at our house. When you hurt someone you need to separate, go into different rooms for a while. Then when you are calm we can come back and talk about the situation, how we could avoid it in the future, apologize, etc. Interestingly, the way we handle those situations at home is different from how my daughter sees them handled at school. When someone hurts another person at school, the aggressor is sent to the principal's office and perhaps punished. There is not much communication between the involved parties after the incident.

Last night, before I went with the police to pick kids up, but after I called my daughter and told her I was coming, my daughter punched my wife, and punched the tile floor at the house she is staying. Daughter told me this when the police allowed me to talk to the kids. She said she just couldn�t control her hands. This is something I am really concerned about. My wife has said in the past that my daughter never hit mom before mom hit her. Now, there were not many times when my wife did hit daughter. We have been opposed to even spanking from the start of our parenting experience. I know of one instance in the last couple years where my wife slapped daughter in the face (I need to confirm this with daughter because my memory is a little foggy). Also, my daughter still tells other people about an incident where my wife, in anger, smooshed a slice of pizza in my daughter�s face (this maybe only a year ago or so). I am truly concerned that my kids are learning this behavior from their mother. I have never hit WW or the kids.

At bedtime lately she has been complaining that she needs something to do with her hands, to keep them busy (she would prefer the iphone). Before we got the iphone my daughter was really into crafting and reading in her free time. Since iphone it is very difficult to get her off the thing, to do her homework, eat dinner, or even fun activities she used to enjoy. I am making some progress and looking into ways to set limits on phone use. I guess I could say I don�t want it in the house, but then daughter would likely want to stay with mommy more. The phone bill is in WW�s name anyway, so we�ll see if she really can continue to pay for it, if what she said is true and she really did lose her job last week.

I would have the kids visit a child counselor and tell yhe counselor yhat your wife is an abuser and may have abused the kids

And smashing pizza in a kids face is wrong.
That's why Harley told you to get away from this insane woman
When you first came here you didn't mention this or the kitchen knife. But Harley has been around enough to read between the lines.
She is crazy.
(Just like my ex)

As you do your own form of trickle truth about your wifes bizarre behavior and spend more time away from her you will see just how bizarre she is

File for divorce

What day did you talk to Dr Harley?

Eden, I just read your email to Dr Harley and his response. Wow!! What did you think of his advice?

AGREE!!!

I havent posted today since I just recently got off a 12 hour shift at work. I stayed later since WW has the kids til tomorrow night. She texted me earlier today to see if we had money in our e-zpass toll account. I asked where she was headed and she said to a holiday musical. I called my daughter's phone in the evening to talk to her and my wife answered, saying daughter wanted her to answer. I texted to ask where they were and no response. S much for that respect of letting the other parent know what is going on with kids that she has been demanding of me. So I checked the toll accunt records when I got home tonight to find the toll plaza she went through with our vehicle was not the one she would have needed to go straight to the show she mentioned but to either OM house or his sister's (WW best friend). Either is possible but I am hoping that it was her friend. I feel I am obsessing over checking up on her. I suppose I cn ask the kids when they come back to me. I did get to talk t my daughter later tonight and asked her who she went to the show with. he said she couldn't remember who, but she did go to the show. I am still very concerned about what WW is doing with and telling the kids when she has them. It is so frustrating.

So what is your Plan?

My plan is to try to get custody of the kids. Get my son into school. Get a better daytime job as soon as I can. I will talk to my attorney tomorrow as early as I can. I�ll email her today because have to get this parenting time clarified. I will also call child protective to see what their recommendations to the court will be, if they can tell me now. I did not tell them all the little incidents of violence that that my wife has done (like the pizza in face episode) so I will tell them as much as I can. Now there have not been many of these episodes but the ones there have been are memorable. I want to ask child protective if my wife is right to let the kids decide which one of us to stay with. I know this sounds like a silly question since the kids want to stay with both of us, but that is just not possible right now.

Also I will ask my attorney if it is possible to start a custody proceeding even though the RO has not been finalized yet. Since she was unsure the other day about me being able to get custody I will ask her why and what needs to happen for me to get custody. Again, according to lawyer and judge, child protective will heavily weigh in on the custody issue.

In the mean time I am applying for social services for assistance with whatever they can offer. And I am applying for jobs.

I have a question. Should I be talking to her friends and family at all anymore. After exposing on fb I only heard back from one of her brothers and one mutual friend of ours, words of support. I heard back from no one else, positive or negative. Even WW parents I have not talked to since before Thanksgiving (I had mainly been talking to them only about childcare). Would it help my case to talk to any the people I exposed to again, or continue to expose to others, since I have no idea what story they are getting now from WW?

Also, how much detail to give the kids about the involvement of the court system in all this. Since the assault I have not really discussed with them. I am not sure if they know that WW is being tried for the assault charges. Basically what I have told them that mommy and I can not be together right now because of how she hurt me that night, and that the people I have been meeting with (lawyers, child protective, etc.) are trying to help me and mommy to do what is best for the children. I am not sure how much detail to go into.

I know there was some back and forth last week about whether to bother with plan B at this point. WHen she does contact me I get some information about what she might be doing witht the kids, like the raveling she did yesterday, though that just got me more concerned for the kids. Without contact she could be doing anything.

If I were to plan B is it appropriate to use an MB intermediary who WW does not even know, as JediKnight had offered previously?

And what is a "dark plan B," as I ve seen mentioned in other topics but could not find a dscription.

Of course the kids don't get to decide. They are just kids. You, the parent decides. The best thing for your kids is for you to get primary custody. I would break your neck to get that. She is very unstable and is not a safe person for your kids. I would keep them with you as much as you can.

After my ex wifes boyfriend nearly beat his 3 year old child to death, the paramedics took the little girl as she screamed "I wqnt my daddy!"

Children, do not understand safety and look up to parents.

You have been wiyh her so long I dont thin k you realislze how unstable she is. I also became accostomed to my wifes bizarre behaviors but being away helps clear the air and lets you thin k clearer.

Also if the kids see a good counselor you may find about other abuse when she was alone with them

Simply put, she is in the fog and her priorities are elsewhere. Furthermore, this stressful situation will only worsen her chances of being abusive to the kids. The kids should be with you. Fight for them.

But you and your WW have to leave the kids out of your bickering. They are being put in the middle, and that is not fair to them. Protect them as much as possible. Don't bad mouth her, though you should not whitewash her affair either. There is a balance, and you will find it so long as you don't let your emotions direct you.

Suspicion confirmed. My kids said they went to OM house yesterday either before or after the holiday show and went to the show with OM and his kids. They did return to WW girlfriend's house, but it was not until almost midnight last night, according to toll records. Kids said they went back to OM house this morning also. Is it appropriate to ask the kids where they were when not with me? My daughter said she lied to me last night because she thought I would be angry with her that she was having fun with OM kids. I told her I was not angry and that I had asked her, when I exposed the A to her, to let me know whenever they were with OM. She said that WW and OM did not "do anything" when they were together. I did not prod the kids any further. Was this too much for them in your opinion?

I really need to get on top of this first thing tomorrow with my attorney so my kids and I don't have to go through this again before the hearing.

On another note, I was so focused on the OM til now that I just realized tonight that the girlfriend that WW is staying with is known to have issues with depression and issues with prescription drugs. She gets so crazy going after men who eventually want nothing to do with her and gets depressed and takes too much medication. This has occurred over the last several years. I don�t know how I forgot to mention this to anyone involved (lawyer, child protective, etc.). I will let them know immediately.

I would tell your wife that she MAY NOT take the kids around OM again. It is horrendous that she would drag her kids into her affair. Have your attorney make this part of the agreement that she never take your kids around the OM.

And why are you allowing her to take the kids when she does not even have a home? Does the court know she is homeless?

I have told her that before, and since the assault, until this weekend, she did not have the kids around him (according to kids). I think she was pissed that I did not relent on getting back together after that day she was in my apartment, and also that I took the kids o my family for thanksgiving, and that she is still in a serious fog about the A, perhaps even a black hole. I will tell her again and also have my attorney let her attorney know so he can tell her also.

You need to get a lawyer and take action in the courts. Stop talking about it and just do it. Insist that he/she take action for you about the kids.

That should be your first and main priority. (after the kids)
Make sure you continue to document and have your recorder on you at all times.

Eden, don't let her take the kids again until you have this established in your visitation papers. I don't understand how a homeless person can get children for overnights. I have NEVER heard of that before. She needs to get a home FIRST. And you need to have this agreement put in your papers that your kids are not taken around her affair.

I am going to the court with lawyer this afternoon. Bringing hell with me.

Keep us updated. Good luck

That's great! Good luck

You can do this. Be cool calm and collected.

The court yesterday afternoon was again just to clarify and define the parenting time until the next hearing. The final RO hearing was adjourned until next Tuesday. Since WW and I, through the lawyers, could not come to acceptable agreement, we went before the judge to help decide on appropriate parenting time. The judge said she was not impressed by my proposal to have my wife take kids alternate weekends and one night per week. She and my lawyer said that seemed that I was using the situation to try to get back at my wife, instead of truly having the best interest of the kids at heart. What we ended up with is that kids go two days with me, then two nights with her, alternating like this until next Tuesday. The judge suggested the possibility if daily parenting time for my wife for a few hours in the evening but this would really disrupt my night time routine with the kids, to have them gone from 5pm to 8pm. Homework and bed time would really be crazy in that situation. The present arrangement can be rearranged at the hearing next week if need be. It was agreed that my son be re-enrolled in school, which I will do today. Pickup and drop off will be done in a pharmacy parking lot down the street, to avoid confrontation at my residence.

My lawyer did bring up to the judge my wife�s violations of the RO (namely coming back to my apartment, and the harassing communications) and my wife was reminded that she must not violate the order. Also, my wife is to be with the children at all times during her parenting time and she is forbidden to have them in the presence of a paramour (namely the OM, but also any other). BTW, I can�t have them around a paramour of mine either, but that is not an issue since I don�t have one.

Can you get a lawyer who is on your side?!!! How can it be best for them to be so disrupted in the name of her A? You need someone who is willing to stand up for you and the kids.



Glad to hear it!

Did your attorney tell you that you can file a petition for contempt of court against your wife for violating the restraining order? If you can do that, I would. I would also keep a record of any additional violations that occur after the petition is filed (but before the contempt hearing occurs). As the hearing date approaches, I would ask my attorney to file an amended petition which includes the additional violations (if there are any).

* I have no legal training, so I'm not sure you can actually do any of that. I'm just thinking your attorney should start playing hardball with her.

They don't care about her affair.
If the shoes were reversed, he would likely have weekend parenting time.
Welcome to the courts, where fathers are discriminated against

Your wife is homelesss and they gave the kids to a homeless person?? What am I missing here??

Your WW is homeless AND has an affair partner and an RO...and the courts are STILL allowing visitation/custody?

What am I missing here?

Jedi: You've posted similar comments on other threads. Why do you keep claiming that the courts are always biased against fathers? The courts granted you full custody of your kids. Correct?

Yes they do seem to be preferential to the mother.
At the hearing next week more details of the affair and the assault and the history of domestic violence will come out. The judge we had yesterday is pretty "liberal" in the words of my attorney. I'm not really sure what that means, But both my lawyer and that judge are women, which may have some bearing here. The judge next week is the same man that I had at the previous hearing. He seems a bit more hard-nosed. We'll see.

I think child protective has been to the house where she is staying, a well kept single family house where apparently the kids have their own bedroom. I have visited and spent the night at that house on several occasions in the past. I'm not trying to downplay my case here but it is not a slum. I did bring up my concern about the girlfriend who's house it is and her issues with depression and medication. They said she's just on Zoloft but I have no way to prove otherwise other than descriptions of incidents my wife gave me in the past.

So she lives with a girlfriend? Is that TRUE?

...ok, so your WW has an affair partner, a RO, and no permanent residence of her own?

You (and your lawyer) need to be bulldogs here...seems like too little fight for all that you have going in your corner...

You can go to the local police department records division and have a Records Request for Address calls. Pull all police calls to that house address.
There is a minimal charge, usually under $5

If you know the occupants date of birth you can also request a Background Check/ RAP sheet on this individual from the Records Div ision

I feel the courts are biased.
In my case my wife was exposing the kids to a convicted drug addict and attempted child murderer and I went to an emergency custody hearing and the judge dismissed my complaints.

I think fathers need to fight extra hard to protect their kids

The courts are generally very biased against men. It is much more common now for men to win custody of their children. They have to be willing to fight, though. The biggest mistake I see is when men conclude that "women always win" and don't fight. We have had some amazing wins on this board over the years for men. JediKnight is one of those successes.

i agree with the previous comments, seems like you and your attorney are taking a back seat.
So much more could be done.
The least of which should be a contempt complaint, you and your attorney will have to file it, the judge isnt going to do anything unless you file it

Side note- fact is some jurisdictions are heavily biased towards women- the joke with attorneys in family court in Nebraska is "every day is mothers day"

Girlfriend in the sense that is a female friend she has had since high school.

She has told me all through this that she did not want to move in with OM even though he offered. I don't know if that was an option for her now anyway since I exposed to OM father and he lives in an apartment in his parents' house. But after all this she may be looking to move in with him in our town. She said she is looking to rent an apartment in town and I don't know how she could afford it even if she were to get custody of kids and child support from me since our combined income was barely enough to afford the apartment we were in before we were separated by the RO.

I would ignore what she says she's not thinking clearly and that's what being in the fog means: irrational thinking

If you feel like your own lawyer is doing it for the sisterhood, something is way off here. For a start, not many women I know have an intuitive sympathy for women who leave their kids for the boyfriend, so you shouldn't be getting this 'girls are all in it together' vibe. Nevertheless it happens.

If this is the instinct you're getting, it doesn't sound like she is the bulldog you need to overcome the system bias.

Can you get a lawyer who is better?

Did you do this, Eden?

I have not done this yet, but will today, and ask my attorney about filing contempt complaint.

I spoke with my attorney on the phone and since I had been telling her earlier that I may be interested in at least attending family therapy with my wife (which would be precluded by the RO), she brought up the possibility of doing a civil restraint but with the condition that if my wife violates the civil restraint I would have the right to reinstate the restraining order. I know what Dr. Harley's advice to me was, and I know what you all have been saying, but might this option be of any help, if I could find a better therapist. I realize that plan B would probably not allow couples counseling. What do you think?

You probably think I'm crazy, right?

I think you should follow Dr Harleys advice

what qualities and values do you love about her? Her abusive behavioror her cheating

I think you should stop wasting time writing on this forum and FOLLOW DR. HARLEY'S ADVICE!

If you're not going to do what he suggests (or Mel for that matter...), then just stop and go do whatever you're going to do and then come back in February when it's too late telling the vets how right they were and how right Dr. Harley was...

I am still here. I have been going forward with my attorney on preparing my case for the restraining order hearing. After having read much more on domestic violence and physical abuse I am still concerned and fearful that it may happen again if my wife and I were together. I don�t know how soon it would happen, because I think this recent ordeal has sort of put her in her place for now. I have emailed Dr. Harley again. I asked him if there is any chance that the aggressor in a DV situation can be rehabilitated with professional treatment. I imagine my wife may be required by the court to go through a treatment program, whether as a result of her criminal charges or by recommendation by child protective. I spoke with child protective and they are waiting on psychological evaluations (whish will happen in next couple of weeks) to make any recommendations to the court.

During the last couple of child transfers my wife broke down and told me that she cant take it any more being away from the kids and me, and said that she is willing to follow a plan for marital recovery and breaking it off with the OM. I told her my concerns, both regarding her anger/violence and her contact with OM. I certainly don�t feel comfortable living with her until the physical violence is addressed. My attorney said the DV treatment programs can take a year or more to complete.

My wife said her lawyer had drawn up divorce papers but she has had second thoughts and has not wanted to follow through with that. Is it appropriate at this time to even bring up the plan for recovery at this point? Would it even be possible to start on a plan for recovery if we are not living together?

My lawyer has reminded me that this is a domestic violence proceeding and that the issue is whether or not I am still in fear of violence from my wife. I think the thing with my lawyer is that she is really unsure that I am still in fear. But I am concerned about it if my wife were to just move right back in right away, judging from how some of our conversations have quickly escalated to arguments. I cut the conversation off when it gets to this point.

In regard to the affair, my lawyer is taking the history of that into account. Since my wife will likely bring up the fact that that what provoked her to anger was my phone and facebook exposure of the affair. So I did give my lawyer a detailed history of the progression of the affair.

How are you talking to your wife?
Are you still breaking the restraining order during the child exchanges?

Yes. She initiated, but obviously I engaged too. If I don't talk to her directly it must either be through the lawyers or another third party. I had been thinking about drafting a Plan B letter. I know your recommendations but I was feeling it might be helpful to allow communication through a third party as if in a plan B so she could let me know that she will end contact with OM. The other issue is her getting treatment for anger/violence. I think recovery may be workable if these things were to happen. She wants an answer asap since she does not want to go to court next week for RO hearing and also would need to start looking for apartment, since she and the woman she is staying with are feeling the stress of the living arrangement. Also there are the money issues since she does not have enough money to get an apartment if she would have to pay me child support. She still thinks the exposure was the wrong thing for me to do but I see that is having some impact on stressing her relationship with the OM.

I do love the way she had been caring for the children, for the most part, at least before the A took hold of her. I love her sense of humor and her spontaneity, but not when it involves the OM. I love her love and care for extended family. I certainly do not love her abusive behavior and believe she needs treatment for that. I do also value her honesty, in communicating her emotional needs, except when it came to angry outbursts abut it. Though I am not excusing her violent behavior or her choice to have an affair, I realize that I had not been doing all I could to meet her emotional needs, nor was I fully communicating to her the emotional needs of mine that she was not meeting.

Jedi_Knight wrote:

MelodyLane followed up:
On the same day (12/4), you responded:
I got the impression you posted that response because you thought that is what we wanted to hear. Was I correct or did you actually do those things?

Do you like to bang your head against a brick wall?

No chance of recovery if she doesn't agree to all of the Extraordinary Precautions listed by ML earlier in this thread, including, of course, a no contact letter. You must see the letter before it is sent.

You have been very assertive and have shown a strength and resolve that it sounds like she has never seen before in you. She may find that appealing, so remember that if you do opt for recovery.

She will need to get anger management counseling as part of your terms for recovery as well.

Just know that there are a ton of false recoveries because Waywards have a hard time putting down the crack pipe. Sue in SAA is the classic example of this.

How about smashing pizza in your daughters face?
The sad thing is that you can't seem to get away from her and your children will grow up with a very distorted view of what a relationship should look like and what level of care to expect.
Do you want your daughter to grow up and be with a man that looses his temper and shoves his fist in her face?

As a father you should drop the fight for your marriage and focus on your kids.
That is what Dr Harley advised you to do

I am not advising Eden to go against Dr. Harley's recommendation. Dr. Harley told Eden:

"To continue living with your wife who is in love with another man, totally disregards your feelings by flaunting her affair under your nose, and is also physically violent toward you is asking for permanent injury or even death."

It is possible that the first part of what Dr. Harley mentioned has changed, and so if that is the case, Dr. Harley may have a different take. Most affairs die within 2 years, and Eden's exposure and assertive legal actions may have hastened the death of the affair, which is the point of the whole exercise, right? As I stated in my earlier post, she still very well could be in the fog, and if she is, the affair could easily resume. I don't think he's close to be safe yet.

Moreover, the abusive behavior is a huge issue that must be dealt with. Behaviors that involve addiction or Abuse must be addressed before there can be any marital recovery.

If it were my marriage and my family, and my wayward spouse demonstrated a willingness to change in all of these areas, I would write back to Dr. Harley, updating him of the new circumstances.

She smashed a piece of pizza in your child's face and assaulted you in front of your children, yet you "love the way she had been caring for the children"? Do you realize she is creating emotional scars that your children will have for the rest of their lives? Do you care?

And the affair did not "take hold of her." The way you chose to word that reflects your refusal to hold her responsible for her own behavior. You prefer to view this as a situation where she were the "victim" of her own affair, as if she were somehow being manipulated rather than fully in control of and responsible for her own behavior.

She has been living a lie, and you say that you "value her honesty"?! I have never seen anyone engage in such denial in order to continue enabling their spouse's destructive behavior.

It would be bad enough if you were only harming yourself, but your enabling is causing short- and long-term harm to your children as well. Clearly, neither of your kids has a healthy attachment to her. (When school-aged kids are markedly detached or inappropriately clinging with a parent who is their primary caregiver, something is seriously wrong. I hope the upcoming psychological evaluations will shed light on this, and cause CPS to step in and protect your children.)

That is certainly possible, but nothing Eden has written suggests that has happened.


No; that wasn't the point and it wasn't an exercise. He got a restraining order against her because she assaulted him on more than one occasion and threatened him with a knife. The point of his "assertive legal actions" wasn't to end her affair; it was to protect Eden and his children from her violence.

I don't understand why you are concerned about the affair "resuming." The affair hasn't even ended yet.

It is true that the point of the restraining order was for protection from domestic violence, though I do think I was using it as an opportunity for plan B (though I did not o an official plan B (no plan B letter, and I have been communicating with wife). My lawyer picked up on the fact that I was somewhat using the RO as �punishment� for the affair. The judge thought my request for very little parenting time for my wife was unreasonable. I don�t think I told my lawyer about the pizza incident, and the affair was not properly exposed at the last court date in front of the judge.

Also true is that WW has been contacting OM daily by phone, in addition to having taken my kids to his house twice last weekend. The RO was amended last Mon to restrict children contact with a paramour (including OM). I check my wife�s phone records daily, as account is in my name, but can only see outgoing calls, no incoming calls or texts. There were a couple calls to OM this week of about 30 min. duration. The rest were 1-3 min. She said that contact with him has been �sporadic� this week and just to say how are you doing, so she is not being fully honest. I wonder if I should straight out let her know that I know she has been calling him or if this would just make her hyper-vigilant. She did mention this morning that she at least told him not to call her and said she would not be contacting any more, and said she is willing to change her phone number.

What is the best way to introduce to her the extraordinary precautions (and other recovery criteria) and how, since I am not supposed to be talking to her?

I am still concerned about the potential for anger/violence toward me, and brought up to WW the possibility of treatment for anger/domestic violence. She said she would be willing. The question is how to enforce this without RO or civil restraint. With both of these options there is not possibility of living together. I am interested in hearing recommendations of child protective but the psych evaluations are not until Dec. 16 through Dec. 23.

Sir drop the wife and protect your kids from her.
Tell your lawyer about the pizza incident.
I suspect there are other "incidents" and you are protecting her through your trickle truth exposure of her abuse

Just wanted to point out that Dr Harley recommended divorce in this case and that is what I would help this poster focus on. There are many, many more issues here than just an affair.

Dr Harley: "In your case, I�d consider a divorce to be almost the only reasonable end to your relationship. To continue living with your wife who is in love with another man, totally disregards your feelings by flaunting her affair under your nose, and is also physically violent toward you is asking for permanent injury or even death."

Eden,

In my case Harley recommended a similar outcome.
He places safety (especially childrens safety) highly.
I also wanted to say my marriage but since I have been divorced and away from her, I can now see how divorce actually benefited my kids.

I realize now that the best thing for me is not to live with my wife for the time being. Pretty much everyone that I talk to, with the exception of WW, thinks this is the best route, to maintain the RO. I just had a long talk with my sister in law (my brother's wife) who has experienced my wife's controlling nature over the years and has also been through a divorce herself (my brother is her second husband). She is a strong woman and she has also witnessed over the years my lack of boundaries and indecisiveness, with my wife as well as my family and my students when I was a teacher.

I really do feel that my communicating with my wife this past week has not been good for my psyche. I have been treating my wife as my higher power since I met her. It is going to take more time away from her to break out of that and become my own man.

It is interesting that a big issue my wife has had with me over the years is my indecisiveness and my inability to take action and tell her how things are going to be. Even though she is saying she wants to get back together right away I feel I need time to continue developing my self confidence and boundaries on my own. Interestingly, WW has said that one major thing she found attractive in the OM was his ability to be decisive and take action and set boundaries with my wife. However much she thinks she wants to get back together with me I think she still wants me to make my own decisions. My flip flopping and talking with her this last week has kid of undermined that. I need to show her that I am serious and that what I am doing is in the best interest of the children. I am sensing that without following through on the RO and standing up for myself and my kids that there will never be a chance of us reconciling at any point in the future. I am finally starting to come to terms that there may not be a chance of reconciliation, but I know there will not be if I do not follow through and stand up for myself now, which I cannot do with her in my head.

Thank you all for sharing your wisdom and experience, and for your seeming patience through this learning process for me.

No, you do not "need to show her that you are serious and what you are doing is in the best interest of the children." You should act in your kids' best interest because you love them, not because you are trying to show her a new and improved version of yourself. Your wife's view of you should not be what motivates you to protect your kids; your love for your kids should be what motivates you to protect them. You should be motivated to protect them regardless of whether it would improve your chances of recovering your marriage. How it could affect the odds of reconciliation should never even cross your mind. THEY ARE YOUR CHILDREN.

I understand. It is the love for my kids that is motivating me. I feel good about showing them that I am strong enough to stand up for what is in their best interest.

**edit**

A warning to posters to keep posts respectful and helpful!

Good job Eden.

Stay firm here.

She wants to come back because things are getting terribly uncomfortable for her and rightly so. Continue being tough and protecting yourself and the kids. Get a divorce.

This lady needs to be on her own to figure out her own problems and take responsibility for them. Let her scramble to find housing, funding, etc.

You're coming out of your own fog. A fog in which she had you cowed and cowering. Keep going with the separation/divorce plan. If she really wants to reconcile and heal the family, she'll spend the next few years working on her anger issues and proving her worth to you. If not, you are far better off without her.

Shoul i really file for divorce right now or wait until RO is finalized? Does it make a difference who files for divorce first?

In your case, I would file for divorce while you have an advantage. Dr Harley advised you to get divorced and the timing is advantageous.

The person who files controls the timetable so you must be the one to file if you want this (you do)

I encourage you to file immediately

Eden the fact you didn't consider the pizza incident important enough to mention to the person fighting for you legally is pretty telling. Most people would consider that horrific and would kick their spouse out of the house to protect their kids after an incident like that. However I am sure she had made such violent behaviour seem normal and had gaslighted you into acceptance for a long time before she even tried something that extreme.

That's why it seems so normal that you didn't even mention it. When you have had some time away from her you will see much more clearly all your family has gone through.

She's still in constant contact with OM. All her tears are for herself and she is trouble from top to bottom. Stay with Dr Harley's advice, he can see this is more than just an average A. Marital recovery isn't for everyone and I can personally vouch for it when I say that isn't a bad thing at all.

I was about to write that she had not been calling out to OM for 48 hours but then I checked phone records and saw a one minute call to his number late last night. Oh well. The last two days she has been calling out to her al-anon support group though. Regarding the violence with the children (pizza, etc.) I think that she realizes it has been a problem but is not successfully working toward a solution. I really am not excusing that behavior, but he did always do more reading up on parenting and conflict resolution with the kids than I did. I still have a lot of learning to do in that area. It just seems that her skills are not that well developed, especially when it comes to me. Of course, I had been allowing that to continue to happen.

The more I have been reading SAA the more I am eager to try and work on Dr. Harley's methods. I just wish I was at that point where it could happen. I guess that it won't happen in the case of divorce, unless it is with someone new. Am I correct?

Safety is paramount. It is a saying we use every time us military folks train. Its useful in every area of our lives too. On the divorce thing, it's very common for people to get divorce and later remarry so improve yourself and focus on your children's safety.
Should make alist of where you need improvement in accordance with Dr. Harley's emotional needs and include a plan of how you going to better yourself.

Dr. Harley doesn't recommend trying to meet all the emotional needs in a general sense which could be applied to anyone in a future relationship; he recommends identifying and learning how to best meet the particular emotional needs which are most important to the spouse. Your comments suggest you are encouraging Eden to try to meet his wife's emotional needs, despite the fact that it is inconsistent with Dr. Harley's advice to Eden. Because Eden's wife has been so physically and emotionally abusive, Dr. Harley did not recommend that he learn how to best meet her emotional needs; Dr. Harley told Eden to protect himself and his children from her, and suggested that permanent separation and divorce may the only reasonable course of action. It seems like Eden wants to apply SAA recommendations despite the fact that Dr. Harley already told him that those recommendations should not be applied to his situation.

Eden,

I really applaud the progress you have been making and would like to acknowledge that you have gained some much needed strength since your initial posts on here.

I would like for you to get a prospective regarding the advice you have been given so far.

This forum is called marriage builders, Dr Harley has an outstanding record and experience at saving marriages, no one here takes divorce lightly and in my 5 years of reading daily on this forum I haven't come accross many cases where divorce is adviced. Yet your situation is so dangerous and your kids wellbeing is at such a risk that you have been adviced to unequivocally separate from your WW right now and file for divorce, there is no way round it and there is no magic pill to make this better. You need to prioritise your kids and your safety.

I am 100% certain that there are many other incidents like the pizza incident that you have not disclosed either because you don't want to or because you don't realise the significance of such behaviour but either way there is zero excuse or tolerance for such conduct. If this woman wasn't your wife and you saw this behaviour would you make excuses like you are now??? A murderer can't redeem himself because he was reading books on how to manage his killing urges yet he still went ahead and murdered someone.


Forget about the emotional needs, forget about the contact your WW is having with the OM. Your focus right now is to secure the wellbeing of your kids and inform the right people of the things that have happened and are happening in order to secure full custody and safety of your kids. That's it, that's all you should focus on right now.

You can't meet your WW emotional needs because she is in an affair and even after the Affair ends you will not be able to meet her needs as she will need to follow steps in order to manage her anger and her behaviour. The more you dwell on this the less your focusing where you should right now.

My opinion is that your WW has no intention to reconcile but she is telling you what you want to hear in order for you to drop the RO. Be smart about this don't take the bate and eliminate all the unnecessary contact that geprodises your chances of getting the RO. Keep it simple, keep to the rules of the RO and focus on the kids who are in much need of stability right now. You can't be a husband right now but you are a father and you are risking loosing that by not being more proactive in protecting the kids.

Great post.

I don't understand this:


considering you also wrote this:



How could your wife's informal reading on the subjects of parenting and conflict resolution been more extensive than the formal training you must have received in order to become a school teacher? If you worked in public schools, you must have been educated in child psychology and trained to identify (and required to report!) suspected child abuse. Even if you worked in private schools, you must have had some training in those areas. If that is true (and please correct me if it isn't), why have you felt the need to defer to your wife's judgment in those areas?

Eden, her physical violence isn't a "a problem" it is flat out shocking, dangerous and unacceptable on all levels. You don't have to read a book, or 'realize' a problem to know that raising your hands in anger to your child is wrong.

My wife's attorney came through with a different proposal yesterday for civil restraints that included my wife going thrugh alternatives to domestic violence program, me continuing to abstain from alcohol, but she would be back in the house right away under those conditions. I told her (my lawyer)that was unacceptable, but she knew that from prvious conversations. I spoke with my attorney only late yesterday since was at work all day. My lawyer proposed to me the possibility of proposing the civil restraint under condition that my wife does the alternatives to domestic violence program, that we do counseling together, but wife would not come back into house until counselor felt it was appropriate. That gives a lot of power to the counselor.

My wife tried to get another adjournment because she has a training at work on Thursday when our hearing is scheduled for, but adjournment was not granted.

I still left it open when I got off the phone with my attorney. I don't know why. I do have to let her know in five hours how I want to proceed. The indecision is really killing me, but it looks like I know what I have to do, go for the RO. My attorney said the trial for RO may not be completed in one day, that it could be drawn out over weeks, months maybe.

Looking ahead, maybe prematurely, would it be worth setting up an intermediary (aside from the lawyers) through which to communicate with my wife, about kids, etc.?

Why are you simply NOT following the advice Dr. Harley gave you?

There should be NO indecision -- Dr. Harley advised you what to do!

You keep coming here to post, but with no new actions, with really nothing done, because you are not following the direction given to you.

Why?

I am going through with RO trial tomorrow morning.

Agree very much!! I would stick with the RO order.

I absolutely agree with your decision. Please let us know how it goes for you tomorrow.

Now itsvery important that you stop speaking with her in meeting with her during child exchanges

I did stop speaking wither during exchanges. I do not answer her phone calls. Tonight when we exchanged children I did say "see you tomorrow" but even that was probably too much. She told me that she would not be at court tomorrow because she was prioritizing a work training. I responded "oh" and left.

I was wondering if it would be helpful to bring phone and toll record in evidence of her meeting and contactin OM. Though the affair is not directly part of the domestic violence in question, WW will likely bring up that she was provoked by exposure letters. My lawyer did prepare me for this and told me to give firm timeline of affair events, but did not specifically say to bring call and toll records.

Sounds like a great idea! What would he think about you bringing Dr Harley's article on the value of exposure? He is a leading expert in the US on infidelity and is the author of 18 books.

Thanks all.

I just read harley's article on exposure again and realized that he says int he case of an abusive spouse he recommemds separation with restraining order before. Only after separation is complete does he recommend exposure and go right to plan B. Contact with violent spouse only restored after enrollment in anger management ansd no contact with lover.
I guess i did not read this before i decided to expose, or I glossed over or forgot my wife's physical violent tendency.
In light of this, I don't know why he recommended divorce in his response to my email. His email did say that divorce is almost the only rasonable end to our relationship.
She has aparently not been contacting OM the last couple days, acording to call records. I'm not saying that I am not going for the RO but it seems like in the article that he leaves some possible hope with plan B if WW does end contact with lover.
Sorry I could not directly quote the article as I am posting from my dumbphone.

It could also be that there is contact but it's on an affair phone.

wife sent me the followin text earlier today. I did not respond:
"i wish there was a way i could reassure u that i no longer have contact with (OM), nor do i want to, and i want to commit to helping us. I wish we could rebuild trust. I wish you the best."

Notice how she said "wish I could reassure you" and "wish you the best" and NOT the necessary "here is the proof" and "How can I ease your pain."

i relly dont think so. She was contacting him into last week on the phone i am checking. She doesnt have the money and she has been contacting her alanon support group regularly thlast several days, who are not supportive of the affair and who she was not in touch with in the weeks leading up to exposure. Of course i dont know for sure but how does anyone know a WW is serious about no contact in a plan a or plan b and is serious about no contact with OM?

The status of the affair does not matter in your case. Dr Harley didn't advise you to divorce based on an affair - he has helped many couples recover from affairs. He advised you to divorce because your wife behaves in a way which is highly unusual.

It was the MANNER of how she conducted her A, and he behaviour towards you that raised alarm, bells for him, imo. "To continue living with your wife who is in love with another man, totally disregards your feelings by flaunting her affair under your nose, and is also physically violent toward you is asking for permanent injury or even death".

Affairs are quite normal things. We all would have them in certain circumstances. However she is quite an unusual case and Dr H can tell she isn't going to make it to remorse. Physical violence is actually quite rare, too.

Even if she did end her A (which she hasn't) what can be done about her basic callousness and thoughtlessness? Very little.

Eden,
Harley advised me to take similar steps with my ex wife.
I think the criteria he uses is health and safety, and he places children safety high.

In my case, my wife was having an affair with a violent felon. A convicted child abuser.
He advised me to secure the children as long as she was having her affair.

In your case, he's concerned about safety.
Its really not normal to threaten someone with a kitchen knife.
The police don't think its normal, the courts don't, Oprah doesn't, people here dont. Nobody thinks that's normal.
You have lived around her for so long youre probably in a fog of your own; I was too. My wife wasn't mentally all there and everyone (even her own family) tells me they think she's crazy. I just became so accustomed to the behaviors that it seemed normal to me.

As you have separation, you will come out of your own fog and realize that its for the best.

I wish Pariah were still around to advise on the issue...

I agree with this. I hope you don't find it patronising Eden but once you get some distance and can see what's been going on you will be horrified. She started small and ramped up her abuse so you got used to it over time.

Since haley say not to expose until after separation in abusive cases would i be shooting myself in the foot if i were to bring his advice up. First it would show that i did not really follow his advice since i am claiming prior violent history and i went ahead and exposed without separation anyway. Also it important that the court doesn't think i am using the restraining order to punish the affair. That said, the violence is pretty obvious, as she admitted it and officer her took her statement will testify.

I'd stop second guessing yourself.

1) She had an affair and 2) She was violent. All you did was respond in the way you felt was best at the time. Do you really think you will need to defend yourself for 1) telling the truth about her A to save the M and b) Protecting yourself from the violence?

All you have done is respond to her poor behaviour. I think sheis the one who has to worry about explations, not you.

I agree

Agree. Let her worry about explaining her abusive behavior. All you did was expose the truth. She had an affair and then beat you up when you told the truth!!! It is not you who is the bad guy here.

In the middle of trial. The judge dismissed the three previous cases. I m not sure haow this will tuurn out. Her lawyer said they wil give in to any conditions i want to avoid an RO, but I will follow through with trial.

My lawyer says judge is being very dismissive of assault with previous cases. If i lose, she will to come right back into the house.

If you have all the violence/assault documented and all of the evidence with you at court today, how can the judge simply dismiss your RO?

Start divorce proceedings today! Now! File for full custody. You've got to get going while you have the upper hand.

She is on shaky footing. File now, get her out of the house permanently.

I hope your case doesn't get thrown by the wayside here. If she gets back in that house, I'm afraid for you and your kids. She is masterful at keeping you in line and you so want to believe you can reconcile the marriage that you are very, very vulnerable.

GET GOING ON THE DIVORCE!!

x2

Dr. Harley has already advised you to file for divorce. If your RO gets dismissed, you NEED to file for divorce today. Your kids need you to protect them. Do not give your WW the upper hand.

Yes

The RO case was dismissed. My wife totally lied under oath about all of the previous domestic violence history. The judge really did not want to hear much about the affair, from me or her. She said that OM was just a "family friend." So much for that honesty and rebuilding trust she was talking about earlier. Looks like I will have quite a fight ahead with a custody battle. Lawyer says that full custody is really not likely. Child protective verdict is still out until after psych eval. I will disclose everything now to them, as I am remembering new things.

My wife has the kids tonight, since she had a friend pick them up from their friend's house after school when we were in court, even though I arranged for someone else to pick them up. I will be able to pick them up from school tomorrow, but don't know what to expect if my wife shows up demanding that they go with her. There is no legal protection for me or them anymore, for the time being.

You don't have to say you told me so.

and she is back to calling OM again. I realize now that we are done. What would be the best way to get the kids back in the meantime before a divorce/custody case is started or takes effect? I don't think I can take them out of state long term without her permission and I don't think I could hold them hostage in my apartment. Glad I had the locks changed though.

Why does she have custody of the kids? You let her take them? Did you call the police when she threatened you with a knife?

Sorry Eden this situation makes absolutely no sense. What are you not telling us?

Just yesterday, you wrote:


But today you wrote that she was at that court and testified. Did she just show up unexpectedly?

Also, this morning you wrote:


Was the officer was unexpectedly missing during the hearing? If she showed up and lied under oath, the officer's testimony would have contradicted her. I don't understand this...

I dont understand it either. The officer did testify and did contradict my wife's testimony for this most recent assault. She said that that she was helping me prepare dinner in the kichen when it happened butshe actually came righin from work without taking her coat off and let into me. The judge could not believe that i did not report any of the prior incidents, though he said that some of them may have occurred, even after she flat out lied that she has never been physically violent with me.

Aparently she was hoping not to come to court so she would not miss work again but i guess to avoid getting charged with contempt she showed up.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Again, when are you going to follow through with Dr. Harley's advice to you?

You need to carefully follow the advice of your attorney on this

I encourage you to file for divorce and tell your attorney that you want a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) appointed to represent your kids

Did you check the police records for the address she's stay in at?

Custody battles are war. Be prepared to go into it like Rocky went into the ring. Have you seen the Rocky movies?

How many lawyers did you interview?

I don't have much faith in yours if she can't get proven violence backed up by an officer acknowledged in a court.

Could you see someone else for a free initial chat just to check there isn't more can be done? You need a bulldog.

I just can't believe how disillusioned and under my wife's control I have been. It is really hitting me now the shock of my wife's twofacedness. Lying in court. She actually had the gall to say to the judge that she wished there was a polygraph there for what I was saying. she's acting like none of the prior domestic violence occurred.

The official ruling of the court was that the judge found simple assault but no reasonable fear factor. Court did not find that a terroristic threat or harrassment occurred.

The judge could not believe if I was truly afraid of her why I would not have reported any of the prior incidents, especially the one where she punched me in the stomach, since I had said I was in pain for a day afterward. Looking back I don't know why I didn't report them either.

I'm guessing these issues may have influenced yesterday's hearing:

~ You repeatedly allowed your wife to break the temporary restraining order.

~ You never cut off contact with your wife. (You even engaged in conversation with your wife the night before the hearing!)

~ Your attorney discussed alternatives to the RO with your wife's attorney because you told her that you were afraid the RO would prevent you from being able to pursue marital counseling and reconciliation.

~ Your desire to remain in contact with your wife and your indecision over pursuing the restraining order were so extreme that you almost didn't go through with yesterday's hearing.

At first, I was shocked by the court decision. But on second thought, I can see why the judge wasn't convinced that you are genuinely afraid of your wife.

I feel like the best thing you could do at this point is to file for divorce and try to get custody of your kids. Hopefully, the results of your kids' upcoming psych evaluations will enable Child Protective Services to influence the custody case in your favor.

It's perfectly obvious why not. Domestic abuse victims tend to stay in love with their abusers and never have a realistic level of fear because it has been normalised. Dr H has a terrible time trying to get them to report, leave and follow through legally. What you did was not wise, but is very standard for a victim of violence.

The judge must be an idiot, completely new to DV cases or just plain old sexist.

The judge is probably biased against men.
I posted in "Other Topics" a thread about D.V. women on men.
There is a great deal of bias in the courts in favor of women.

Regardless of the current outcome, your wife did face some consequences for her actions

Were your children or anyone else present during your wife's previous incidents of domestic violence against you? If so, I'm wondering if they could be questioned regarding those incidents to determine whether your wife could be prosecuted for lying under oath yesterday. Regardless, whether your children witnessed her domestic violence against you--as well as any violence against them--should be addressed during their psychological exams with CPS.

I'm glad to hear you're starting to see the reality of your situation more clearly. Your WW is so blatantly manipulative and cruel. We can see it!

Unfortunately, men who suffer with domestic violence don't get nearly the support and recognition that battered women get but at least YOU are waking up now.

You're going to have to get rough with this divorce because you know this woman will lie, cheat and bully to get her way. File first! You've got to beat her to the punch. Request full custody. You won't get it but it will be the starting place for negotiation.

I am so, so sorry Eden. I know how awful it is to come out of your own fog and realize this person you thought loved you is actually mean, evil and totally self absorbed.

Dr Harley writes that if you've ever been in an abusive relationship then youre probably a renter yourself. (Buyers Renters Freeloaders)

As you discover more about MB you will get good perspective and see that you can still live a happy, fulfilling life without her.

What's going on?
I hope you havent backed down and given in to her demands

Hey there. My wife is still living with her friend. She says that she secured a one bedroom apartment for january. I have not filed for custody or divorce. We have been exchanging the kids basically as we were when RO was in effect.

Why havent you filed for divorce?
You need to take legal action or you may loose your kids

Eden,

Please remember that NOT choosing is also a choice. There are consequences to that choice. Jedi has pointed out that you may lose the custody of your children if you continue to NOT choose. In some situations, the Courts would look at your behavior as if you agree with and support your WW's actions.

Please, do something. Your kids need you. They need you to stand up and fight for them.

What's the news Eden?

Let me start by saying that i know that not deciding is deciding to do nothing. I did decide to wait on filing anything. Waiting for child protective recommendations, etc. I take full responsibility for the consequences of waitin. My wife has filed for divorce. I was served with the papers today. My wife is in her own apartment as of yesterday. I am working with a different attorney than i was with the RO.

Well dont sit on your hands.
Make sure you respond to the divorce etc.

Also, I encourage you to ask your attorney to request a Guardian ad Litem be appointed to your case. Tell the attorney you want full custody.

Are you following the RO or have you caved in to her demands?

I hope you didnt help her move.
Who's paying for yhe apartment?

I did not help her move. She is paying for her apartment. It has been an ongoing struggle for me to keep contact with her to a minimum. I have friends who are supportive and are helping me to limit contact. The attorney I was going to get did not work out, but I am signing up with one for whom I got good recommendations. My folks agreed to help me pay for the lawyer. I am talking with the lawyer about the best way to proceed with managing parenting time disagreements in the meantime until we can get in front of a mediator.

I have been a lot better about not giving in to her selfish demands. She has filed requesting sole custody yet she texts me to bring her toilet paper because she can't get out of the house with my sick son. I have really come a long way, with your help and the help of my friends, in seeing her demands as BS.

In regard to me requesting sole custody, my attorney says that it is not likely, and that it would probably just end up costing more money to end up with the same result (most likely joint custody).

I am just wondering how to communicate with her about the kids while going through this process. Certainly phone calls and in person are not working. I guess it may have to be through the lawyers, though the more communication that goes through them, the more it costs.

Find a friend who can be an IM for you.

I am wondering how to deal with my wife's birthday which is this coming Sunday. I totally forgot about it until now, with all the BS going on. I am not planning on doing anything for her but I am wondering if I should have the kids do something, a card, or gift?

Wife's attorney has not responded to my attorney's proposal for interim parenting time. My wife assumes that I should have them only every other weekend, and I of course feel differently. My attorney has advised me to "keep the peace" in the interim. I pick the kids up every day from school and a couple nights this week my wife has had outbursts when she has come banging on my door demanding the kids go with her. I have let her take them, to avoid her outbursts in front of the children. Last night I let her take them with no fight. I contacted our child protective case worker and of course she asked me what would be best for the children. I agreed that the less of my wife's outbursts the kids see the better. so that is why I let her take them last night.

I don't really have any friends I would feel comfortable acting as an IM. What about a family member like my sister in law? That would probably make my wife's head explode. Jedi Knight did offer to act as an IM a while back but I did not take him up on the offer.

Wasn't Child Protective Services supposed to make a formal recommendation after completing the children's psychological evaluations? And wasn't that supposed to have occurred already?

Given the legal issues regarding your case, it seems strange that your Child Protective caseworker would make a decision based solely on what one parent believes what would be best for the children.

Cps worker did not make the decision. I did to avoid a scene in front of children. My wife rescheduled her evaluation for february, so we are still waiting for psych recommendations until after that.

Sir, WTF are you doing?
"I dont want my kids to see my crazy wife's outbursts so I let her take them????"

Good grief!
If she can't control her anger DONT GIVE HER YOUR KIDS!

You are quickly loosing what little advantage you have in this arena.....and its all YOUR fault!

Heres what you should have told CPS:
"My wife continues to have uncontrollable angry outbursts in front of our children and I am concerned for their safety. I will not release them to her care and custody because I dont feel she is fit to supervise them and I will call the police when she can't control her anger.
How can your agency help protect my children?"