I am a 46 yr old WW. I need help from former WS to help me. I know that I will take bashing from BS on the board and that is ok.
I have had several emotional and physical affairs. I am in week three of no contact with my affair partner. My husband knows the truth, the affair partner's wife knows. Exposure has been done. I know and understand that I have used affairs as a drug to feed my ego, to meet unmet needs, and I am ready to move past this in my life.
The question I have is how to deal with the pain that going thru the inital phase of no contact causes. I truly thought I was in love with this affair partner. We were involved in an affair for over a year. He was a huge part of my daily life. I was in constant contact with him. I allowed him to meet the needs that I should have allowed my husband to meet. The pain I feel is real. I just need to hear from other WS who made it through this part of the recovery process.
My husband knows I am struggling with coming out of the fog. I have cried at radom times, I am depressed, I can't eat. I have to believe that there are others who have had to live thru this that may be able to help me.
Please know that I am respectful to all the betrayed spouses on the board and realize that many think WS do not have feelings and emotions and that we have lived in a fantasy world. You are right, the affair was not reality. The feelings I have are based on the emotions of something wrong.
I truly want to live to see the recovery process work for us. I am willing to go thru whatever to do that.
Someone please give me some advice.
I am not a former WW (or BW) but I can see from your post history that you have obviously had a false recovery and subsequent affair(s) since previously posting.
After your previous affairs, it seems boundaries/EPs were not adhered to. Aside from that, did you make an effort to fall back in love with your husband?
Yes, you are in the fog, but actively trying to love your husband is IMO a priority. Are you doing this? Or just lamenting OM?
itsamess, there are alot of people here who can help you, but I would ask that you show a little more respect for the members of this board. Prejudging and dismissing betrayed spouses is insulting and unwarranted.
The help you need comes from Marriage Builders materials, and that can come from a WS
or a BS.
The question I have is how to deal with the pain that going thru the inital phase of no contact causes.
Have you ended ALL contact with the OM? Is he anywhere close by? Where and how did you meet him? Do you have any momentoes or gawk at his facebook page? Do you TALK about the affair?
Other than that, you ride it out and replace that vacuum with a romantic, happy marriage. Can you or your husband take a week long trip together? That would be a great launch to your new marriage.
Another suggestion made by Dr Harley is to take anti-depressants. That will help you ride this out.
Who was the affair exposed to?
What has been done to affair proof your marriage?
My husband knows I am struggling with coming out of the fog. I have cried at radom times, I am depressed, I can't eat. I have to believe that there are others who have had to live thru this that may be able to help me.
I am much more concerned about your husband. How is he doing? Will he come here and let us help him?
Remember that no contact means NO contact - ML is right. Even looking at his FB page is breaking no contact.
Answer any and all questions your spouse has for you about the A. No lies and no secrets.
Be completely transparent in your communications, whereabouts, and any communication devices you have. Your H should have access and all passwords.
If you happen to work with any of the OM it is time to find a new job.
Work to meet your H's EN's and definitely avoid LB's.
Be patient. Your H is grieving and he needs ALL your care right now.
Replace thoughts of longing or withdrawal with thoughts about how you can help your husband, reminders that all those things that "felt good" were based on lies, hurt, and deceit, and willfully train your mind NOT to go there.
If you haven't yet, read Surviving and Affair.
Stay the course. You will feel emotional at times. You will feel the urge to be defensive at times. Keep your eye on the recovery prize and you HUSBAND in your focus zone.
Don't argue the minutiae. A lot of WS's on here get sidetracked trying to argue about whether the OP lives 150 or 60 miles away or whether or not they should have a joint facebook or no facebook or whatever....this is a waste of your precious recovery energy. Do what you KNOW from reading SAA and the articles on here that you should do. It really doesn't matter what color the OM's hair really was or whether you went to Chick Fil A on June 4, 2004 or June 5, 2004. Eye on the goal and not the rabbit chasing
I am in week three of no contact with my affair partner.
Huh?
Back in 2010 you said you and H were following MB...yet three years later you are/were still cheating, broke NC, are still fogged out????
Please stick to one thread. I have no idea what your story is but three years later...
Thanks so much to those who have posted! Yes, I have had several affairs, both emotional and physical. I had a false attempt at NC with the affair partner and a second DD three weeks ago.
Since then there has been no contact at all. The exposure was done with all our friends/family. I changed my phone number, don't have a facebook account (OM doesn't either), no way to see anything on social media. We have no chance of running into each other as he lives about an hour away. When we were seeing each other we had to make plans to see each other.
I have been honest with my husband and answered any questions that he has had. I have been understanding and haven't gotten defensive or upset if he has needed to talk about it.
I am on anti-depressants and have been for a number of years. This pain is real and hard. I seriously need feedback from those who have traveled this road. I see how easy it would be to try to contact him to relieve this pain. I do not want to do that as I know it will just set me back.
I have tried to think about all the hurt this has caused and the negative aspects of the situation but I also find it easy to only remember the way I felt during the emotional high of the affair.
I see how easy it would be to try to contact him to relieve this pain.
It shouldn't be easy to contact him to relieve the pain if you have extraordinary precautions in place. If you think it would be easy to contact him, then something needs to change. In what ways would it be easy?
As for the pain of withdrawal -- yes it's real. Everybody here knows that, BS and WS alike. Detox hurts. But it won't kill you. The best way to get through it is to focus on building a romantic relationship with your husband. Let him replace the drug.
Dwelling on the pain of withdrawal, and blogging about how much it hurts, will get you nowhere. The more you talk about it, the harder and longer it will last. Stop talking about it. What are you doing for your marriage?
Here is the advice you were given in 2010:
You had affairs because you did not have boundaries to protect your marriage.
If affairs were all about unmet needs, then every BS here would have had an affair because there needs certainly weren't being met when their WS was sneaking around with someone else.
Don't make this into something more complicated than it is.
Affairs happen because people don't have the boundaries that prevent them.
Do you have children? How long have you been married?
What is the story behind the Dday three weeks ago? What type of contact did you have with OM and for how long? How did the latest Dday happen?
Will your BH come here?
What transparency are you giving your husband? Make it so that if you contacted the OM, your husband would know immediately.
What are you and your husband doing to rebuild your marriage? Are you following the
Policy of Undivided Attention? If not, that could explain why you needed to be on antidepressants the last several years. The number one source of depression in women is their relationship with their husband or boyfriend.
I have read through your threads.
You and your husband both live independent lifestyles and do not have boundaries around the opposite sex.
These conditions make it easy for you to have several affairs and your husband has had at least one affair himself. He also travels out of town for work.
In 2010 you started to read MB materials with him after an affair but stopped posting after a few months.
You have tried recovery your own way and it hasn't worked.
Are you willing to follow the MB program completely now?
Thanks for the links Jedi.
itsamess, if you AND your H don't want to follow MB, then I suggest you file for D and be done with it. You don't have EPs is place and are a serial cheater...and you need extra, extra EPs!! Assuming what you say about your H is true, then he isn't interested in living an MB lifestyle either. You and H MUST be a team or this is NEVER going to work.
If you both don't want to follow MB and also don't want to divorce, then pretty much the solution is to stop complaining because YOU choose this life.
My two cents
Married 25 years, two children (both in college 22/20). The latest DD happened because my husband found messages on my phone discussing with a friend about affair partner. He then notified the OP wife. It was a mess.
Our last 15 years of marriage has been a vicious cycle of this and we keep coming back to each other.
Married 25 years, two children (both in college 22/20). The latest DD happened because my husband found messages on my phone discussing with a friend about affair partner. He then notified the OP wife. It was a mess.
Our last 15 years of marriage has been a vicious cycle of this and we keep coming back to each other.
Would you like to be in love with your husband?
Have you written a No Contact letter to tge affair partner and shown it to your husband?
Have you considered coaching with MB?
15 years of on/off cycle serial adultery is not a DIY project, you guys will need professional help.
I would love to help you but I think no matter what we say, the cycle will continue, will it not? I think you need to go pro with the Harleys.
Is your husband still spending little time wth you because of his traveling job?
My husbands job is not a traveling job but his job requires alot of time at work during the "season".
Yes, I would like to be in love with my husband. We have spent alot of years brushing trouble under the rug and never getting to the core of the problems.
I posted here today in hopes that someone who can remember what it is like to feel this empty void of coming out of the fog could help me.
There is no way out of your pain other than putting one foot in front of the other, and by doing something. Each day you heal your BH by your actions. Feelings Follow Action!
Stop sulking in your own pain ... you made that pain yourself. You chose this path.
I think you need to contact Dr. Harley ASAP. The bad habits and marriage wrecking choices will be difficult to overcome. You need an accountability coach.
First off you need to start taking action. Have your BH post here. That's one way to get the ball rolling, and give you some accountability. Next you need to tend to his wound, and start developing a plan to eradicate your SSL.
I posted here today in hopes that someone who can remember what it is like to feel this empty void of coming out of the fog could help me.
Did you read what I wrote?
I posted here today in hopes that someone who can remember what it is like to feel this empty void of coming out of the fog could help me.
I remember it. It sucked.
But people have already given you the solution. You need to take the steps necessary to recover your marriage and fall in love with your husband. People have already given you some good advice on how to do that. Are you willing to follow it?
It's really pretty simple. Instead of sitting around moping about how much you miss the OM, you focus on creating an affair-proof, romantic relationship with your husband where you are both in love with each other and meeting each other's EN's. If you are in love with your H and he is meeting your EN's (and vice-versa), there will be no reason for you to continue pining after the OM.
Action is the key here. Get busy. I haven't read all of your previous posts, but from the sound of it, you have a lot of work to do. The busier you keep yourself by doing that work, the better you will feel.
How is your UA? The more time you and your H spend together right now, the better.
My husband and I have been spending every minute outside of work together. Most of the time alone. I have developed something very similar to social anxiety and almost get into a panic when I have to be around friends and people who know about the situation.
I am trying very hard to stay focused on building that relationship back with my husband. I do not want to feel this way.
It seems that every turn in my day remind and trigger me of the OM. He was very seeded in my daily routine. We stayed in constant contact by text.
My work is very flexible and I have alot of down time. This is the worst part.
I am trying to keep busy and not dwell on this. There are times when the wave is so strong and tears are constantly stinging the backs of my eyes.
My husband and I have been spending every minute outside of work together. Most of the time alone. I have developed something very similar to social anxiety and almost get into a panic when I have to be around friends and people who know about the situation.
I am trying very hard to stay focused on building that relationship back with my husband. I do not want to feel this way.
It seems that every turn in my day remind and trigger me of the OM. He was very seeded in my daily routine. We stayed in constant contact by text.
My work is very flexible and I have alot of down time. This is the worst part.
I am trying to keep busy and not dwell on this. There are times when the wave is so strong and tears are constantly stinging the backs of my eyes.
You seem to be falling into the classic wayward syndrome of "But what I had with the OM was so much deeper and more special than what everyone else had."
I was literally in constant contact with my OM too. Dozens of texts and phone calls everyday, all day.
And you want to talk about triggers? I had a child with my OM. I can't imagine a more emotional, impossible-to-escape-from trigger than that.
If you're intent on sitting around feeling sorry for yourself and wallowing in your own misery than so be it. No one can stop that except for you.
And merely spending time with your H isn't enough. It has to be quality time, alone, meeting each other's most important EN's. I know someone mentioned the possibility of you and your husband going on a trip together. I would highly recommend this.
Getting your H on board with MB would be immensely helpful. Does he or will he post here? My H has never really bought into MB, and it certainly has made things more difficult.
It seems that every turn in my day remind and trigger me of the OM. He was very seeded in my daily routine. We stayed in constant contact by text.
I am trying to keep busy and not dwell on this. There are times when the wave is so strong and tears are constantly stinging the backs of my eyes.
Im sorry but that is so disrespectful to your husband. He is the one who was was stabbed in the heart and deserves your tears, not some sleaze ball who will bang a married woman!
What are you doing to show your betrayed husband that you are worth a second (third? fourth?) chance?
That time you spend together - is it free of distractions? No TV, no pagers, no kids, no internet, no friends? This time will not work to repair your marriage if it is not spent giving each other your UNDIVIDED ATTENTION. You can't give undivided attention if your attention is divided.
So don't count every minute you spend together in life - your attention is usually divided during that time. Instead, SCHEDULE fifteen hours a week and SPEND that time giving each other your undivided attention.
Is the time spent meeting the four intimate emotional needs that Dr. Harley lists? (conversation, affection, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment)
Do you have the book Surviving an Affair - the new version that came out this year? Have you read it? Has your husband read it?
I am trying to keep busy and not dwell on this.
That won't work.
Did you read my other post, about how you need to set it up so that if you contacted OM, your husband would know?
Getting your H on board with MB would be immensely helpful. Does he or will he post here? My H has never really bought into MB, and it certainly has made things more difficult.
If your husband will not get on board with Marriage Builders, if he wants to cut corners and compromise the practices here, then you need to begin preparing for a separation.
Even if you are a wayward wife.
Don't take it from me - this is exactly what Dr. Harley says. A marriage cannot be repaired if the husband tries to leave it up to his wife to fix all the damage, or wants to continue to live an independent lifestyle within marriage.
After three years I would expect your husband to show some Marriage Builders involvement - especially given that he has had an affair of his own!
If your husband will not get involved with you in repairing your marriage, it would be kinder to him and better for your health for you to separate, than to suffer for years in a neglectful marriage and continue to live a lifestyle where you put yourself at risk of an affair.
PLEASE get the book Surviving an Affair, read it, start listening to Dr. Harley's radio show DAILY and start putting these principles into practice. They are going to begin with you establishing extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair and demanding that he do the same.
FREE COUNSELING SESSION DAILY - DON'T PASS THIS UP:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
I truly thought I was in love with this affair partner.
You were, at least if yours was a typical affair. It will not help anything to try to pretend that you didn't feel romantic love. Most people in affairs do.
The thing you need to understand is that creating romantic love is relatively easy. That's why you find it so easy to have an affair. Every single day hundreds, thousands of people do the right things and fall in love with each other. Take the right actions, and love is the result every single time.
When people fall in love to each other and they are married to someone else, it's a tragedy. It's the most painful thing they could possibly do to their husband or wife. It's terrible for their children - not just emotionally, but for their long term success in life. It really does rock the foundation of the world. And of course the truth is that it's not any good for the person having the affair. It is very much like a heroin addiction - it seems wonderful, but you know it's wrecking your life and the lives of those around you, but you just can't seem to stop.
And it's completely preventable. Learn what things create romantic love and DON'T do those things with anybody besides your spouse. PLUS, insist on doing those things with your spouse!
Don't try to pretend you weren't in love and that you should be able to get by fine in marriage without love. Learn how the feeling of romantic love is created and destroyed, and use that information to avoid creating that feeling with anybody besides your spouse. It's not magical. It's not something that "just happens" to you that you can't help. It is completely controllable in the sense that if you do these things with someone you WILL fall in love with them, and if you avoid those things, you will NEVER fall in love with them.
If your husband will not get on board with creating a relationship where the two of you do these things with each other and nobody else, it would be best for you to separate from him. It is a last resort that he may respond to - and if he won't, your marriage has no hope.
Please read Dr. Harley and Dr. Chalmer's description of how their marriage therapy is different from the mainstream:
Romantic Love: Is It a Realistic Goal For Marriage Therapy?This is not a place where we "recover" from affairs by pretending we were never in love with our affair partners and trying to learn how to live in a marriage without romantic love!
Look at this way. If you stick to no contact for 30 days, the feelings will dissipate. Dr. Harley says this, and he has worked with thousands of couples, so he knows the patterns.
In addition, if you spend AU time with your husband meeting each other's needs, you can rekindle the flames.
As ML said, take a one week trip together. Dr. Harley recommends couples in reoovery take a long vacation together, even longer than 1 week if you can get off work that long.
When my wife and I recovered our marriage, we went on a cruise together and had a great time. We dated, went out often and did the fun things we had stopped doing as husband and wife. We got our relationship back on track. Try it. If you do, you will be able to get the POSOM out of your thoughts faster than you think, and maybe even rekindle the flame with your husband.
But you both have to buy into MB's.
Thank you to those who have posted. When my husband had an affair many years ago, we reconciled because I changed and tried to do all the things I needed to do to meet his needs.
We actually separated in June of this year. I left under the pretense that I was unhappy and that he hadn't met my needs. The truth was that I was in the middle of an affair and in my mind I planned to be with the OM. Then, the affair was discovered by the OM wife and she notified my husband and the affair was exposed widespread. The OM tucked his tail and threw me under the bus. I didn't talk to him for a week or so and then he contacted me and little by little wormed his way back into my life.
In July, I went back home because I panicked and was scared. The 20 yr old daughter had sided with her dad and I was in sheer panic mode of losing everything I had (including my husband). The only way he would allow me to come home was under a strict set of rules that he set. He basically said that he had been a good husband to me and had loved me the best way he knew how and that it was up to me to repair the marriage. I tried but quickly grew resentful of all that I was expected to do. AND, of course, I was being brainwashed by the OM thinking that it was just a matter of time before he left his wife and we would be together.
The affair became physical again and in Oct. I left home again under my husband constantly asking me to leave because I was not meeting the requirements of what he asked me to do. During the time I was gone from home the OM wife had asked him to leave because they were fighting all the time. The OM and I were seeing alot of each other and I was pressuring him to make a decision. He kept stalling and making excuses. For whatever reason I didn't want to see that he was having all his needs met the way it was and didn't plan to change.
The end of Oct. my husband discovered that OM and I were still involved and exposed to his wife. The minute she confronted OM he went back. My husband and I went to attorney office to file divorce papers. During the meeting I had a panic attack and left the office. The OM wife called me and threatned to sue me for AOA. My husband was also threatening the OM. The OM called me and all he could do was beg me to keep my H from suing him.
I begged my husband and promised the moon to get him to allow me to come back home. I came back home under the same rules I did before. It is up to me to FIX our marriage. He constantly says "because of all you have done to me" it is your responsibility to fix it.
It has been three weeks since I have had contact with the OM. I truly do want to recover my marriage. I am tired and emotionally and physically exhausted. I am not, in any way, taking anything away from my H. I know I have put him thru HELL. I am willing to do the work with MB that it takes to recover. I believe whole hearted in this system of marriage recovery. My husband just believes that because I messed it up, it is my job to fix it.
I begged my husband and promised the moon to get him to allow me to come back home. I came back home under the same rules I did before.
You promise him the moon and then you whine about how much you miss OM. I am sure you have either given your H no JC or some half [censored] version of it. And this is chance #?????????
It is up to me to FIX our marriage. He constantly says "because of all you have done to me" it is your responsibility to fix it.
And I would agree with him. That is not to say that your H doesn't need to clean up his side of the street but you are the one who cheated and lied REPEATEDLY. I was married to a serial cheater. There is a special level of effed upness with serial cheaters. I can't say I blame your H for wanting you to fix what you broke. Regardless of what he does or has done, you do not have to keep being dishonorable and pathetic. If this is H's way to test you (it may not be...he could be lost himself), you are royally failing.
Prisca, asked you multiple times if you read her posts. I have the feeling you just want to have pity parties and cry about OM and YOUR pain...that your H's HELL is secondary and maybe you will show care for him when it is convenient for you.
And good for your DD20 for standing by her father...she should.
I totally get where you are coming from with your comments regarding my posts! If you were married to a serial cheater it becomes very hard to be objective in your advice and opinion.
Yes, I have read all the posts here. I have not picked out certain ones to read or take heed to.
I do not want to have a pity party for myself. I say every day to myself, "you did this to yourself, your wounds are self inflicted, you do not deserve to feel bad or hurt or sorry for yourself". I wish that would work in taking the pain away from me but it doesn't. Yes, it is evident that I made terrible choices. It is evident that the OM lied and manipulated me to his advantage. I am just as much a POS as he is.
Trust me when I say that I feel one of the biggest obstacles in repairing this marriage will be my ability to forgive myself and allow myself to think that I am worthy of the love my husband has for me.
I totally get where you are coming from with your comments regarding my posts! If you were married to a serial cheater it becomes very hard to be objective in your advice and opinion.
Having been married to a serial cheater has not affected my objectivity, advice or opinion. Unfortunately, I do know how much more difficult it is to recover with one. Dr. H acknowledges this as well.
Trust me when I say that I feel one of the biggest obstacles in repairing this marriage will be my ability to forgive myself and allow myself to think that I am worthy of the love my husband has for me.
This says a lot. Good luck to you itsamess.
If you are a serial cheater and only a few weeks out from yet another D day then I would suggest that you don't really understand what your actual obstacles to recovery are - after all, you are still being quite foggy here. I'm not a BW or WW. What the BW says, even those with serial cheats, is correct.
It's a cop out to try and claim that they are not objective. I would suggest that YOU are not objective here.
"I totally get where you are coming from with your comments regarding my posts! If you were married to a serial cheater it becomes very hard to be objective in your advice and opinion."
If someone was married to a serial cheater then they have EXPERIENCE and wisdom that you need. Do you tell a master mechanic who fixes cars all day that "it is very hard to be objective in your advice and opinions?" Of course not.
The only person on this thread who is not objective is you. Please try to be more objective and stop rejecting good advice based on foolish stereotypes. Your bias is becoming a hindrance.
You do not need to "forgive" yourself, you need to change yourself.
And I agree that self pity is not helpful. I would lose that line of thinking quickly. Stop talking about the OM and start focusing on ways to change your lifestyle and make amends to your husband.
I am serious about trying to recover my marriage. I desperately want to seek the advise of people here and Im willing to do whatever to make it work
"The OM wife called me and threatned to sue me for AOA. My husband was also threatening the OM. The OM called me and all he could do was beg me to keep my H from suing him."
Good for her!!
I would encourage her to follow through. It would be in all of your best interest if she did.
Are you reading Surviving an Affair?
Did you write a No Contact letter to OM and give it to your husband?
I am serious about trying to recover my marriage. I desperately want to seek the advise of people here and Im willing to do whatever to make it work
We will see. I have seen you continually try to reject good advice based on your own preconceived - and wrong headed - biases.
I totally get where you are coming from with your comments regarding my posts! If you were married to a serial cheater it becomes very hard to be objective in your advice and opinion.
Please tell me what "objective" advice would look like and how it would differ from black_raven's advice.
You have been unfaithful to your husband a number of times (with how many men?) and no care or concern for him or your children has stopped this. You have deserted them twice this year already, causing immesurable grief. You have prostituted yourself for a man who is using you for sex and will never leave his wife for you. What would your "objective" advice look like?
I find it troubling that you wanted the insight of a FWW to help you, but you have yet to respond to the advice I gave. I suspect it is because you did not like what I had to say. Instead of looking for concrete advice on how to get out of this hole you have dug, you are looking for pats on the back and "atta girls."
Am I correct?
Another round on the merry-go-round. Itsamess, there are many smart posters here, including FWW, willing to help you - but with 15 years of repeated behaviour and unwilling to even listen to advice on this thread, should they spend their time helping you? Or should they go help those who are actually willing to do the steps to make their marriage?
I am serious about trying to recover my marriage. I desperately want to seek the advise of people here and Im willing to do whatever to make it work
What EPs have you given your BH? Can you do the MB online program?
What just compensation have you given your BH?
Have you changed all contact information within the last 3 weeks?
Have you been tested for STD/I?
What is Just Compensation?
I have changed my phone number in the last three weeks. I deleted the yahoo messenger account that I used to talk to the OM and I deleted his account. My husband has online access to our cell phone bills. The only possible way I could communicate with OM would be thru my office phone. I have not and will not call him.
I am truly not looking for anyone to feel sorry for me or pat me on the back. I honestly was seeking suggestions for helping to emotionally get thru the fog process of ending this affair.
I literally feel like I can't breathe at times. I have started texting my husband and telling him how much I love him every time I get this anxious feeling. I am trying to keep my focus on my marriage and building it back.
I was tested for STD's at my yearly checkup in Oct. I specifically requested it.
The only possible way I could communicate with OM would be thru my office phone. I have not and will not call him.
This is a huge hole in your EPs. It was the means that my H used to communicate with his OW for 8 years. She lived in another country and he never even saw her for 5 of those years, but the emotional part of the affair thrived, making a disaster of my marriage. My H never once used the home phone for contact, and for years we didn't have a PC or the Internet at home. The only means was via the office - but those means were devastating to my mental health and my marriage.
Contact only stopped when my H retired from work. With your record of uncontrollable promiscuity and deceit, you will have to give up working outside of the home. Your H has no assurance that you are not contacting OM every day for the 8 hours you are at work.
Dr H
always advises serial adulterers to give up outside work, or work alongside their spouse in a joint business with full accountability. Recovery with someone as addicted to affairs as you is impossible if you keep your job.
thank you for the advice!
That time you spend together - is it free of distractions? No TV, no pagers, no kids, no internet, no friends? This time will not work to repair your marriage if it is not spent giving each other your UNDIVIDED ATTENTION. You can't give undivided attention if your attention is divided.
So don't count every minute you spend together in life - your attention is usually divided during that time. Instead, SCHEDULE fifteen hours a week and SPEND that time giving each other your undivided attention.
Is the time spent meeting the four intimate emotional needs that Dr. Harley lists? (conversation, affection, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment)
Do you have the book Surviving an Affair - the new version that came out this year? Have you read it? Has your husband read it?
itsamess, why aren't you answering my questions?
I've been working the Marriage Builders program for nearly four years, have listened to thousands of hours of Marriage Builders Radio, read most of the books, and gotten fairly good at helping people through this program. If you'll engage and answer the questions that are being asked and make sure you are taking the steps Dr. Harley recommends (that I'm repeating to you), you can probably come out of this fairly well.
The questions aren't rhetorical. If you don't answer the questions, you are probably missing most of the concrete things you need to DO in order to recover, and you probably won't recover.
thank you for the advice!
Have you any intention of taking it?
The only possible way I could communicate with OM would be thru my office phone. I have not and will not call him.
Huge LOOPHOLE. As long as you have this ability, it is likely the affair will resume. Or a new one will take place. This loophole should be closed.
Itsamess, first, let me establish that everything I have to say here is being whispered, as a friend might do over a cup of coffee.
I'm 46, too.
I'm not going to pretend I have much good advice to offer to someone in a marriage in which both partners have been unfaithful. I also don't have any personal experience with serial infidelity. I know that ultimately, for you & your husband to have a great marriage, he needs to be all-in, just as you do. I also know that you can only clean up your own side of the street, and he has to clean up his.
You've been here for over 3 years. Have you ever read "Surviving An Affair"? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a serious question. What's your answer?
What are your extraordinary precautions? List them, please, in specific detail. I'll give you feedback.
Re: withdrawal, do an advanced search on this website for "managing memories and dealing with triggers." You'll find some very helpful information. Information that was immensely helpful to me after my own affair.
I think you need to take off your rose-colored glasses with regard to the other man. This is a guy who was willing to coldcock your husband. Figuratively-speaking, he was perfectly willing to ambush your husband from a blind alley, smash his face down into the pavement, steal your husband's wallet, kick him in the ribs & leave him lying there in a puddle of blood & broken teeth. Your OM was a thug. And you miss his texts? I'm not suggesting that you need to demonize the OM in your memories -- you don't need to at all, because the complete reality is plenty bad enough. I'm merely suggesting that you see the complete reality, including that side of reality that you've been willfully suppressing. Sure, OM was nice to you, for a spell; but he was a puke-inducing moral cipher to your husband -- a man who'd never done OM any wrong. And you've been choosing to overlook that.
And re: this: ..AND, of course, I was being brainwashed by the OM thinking that it was just a matter of time before he left his wife and we would be together....
Your entire relationship with OM was built on a mutual conspiracy of lies & deception. In the process of deceiving your husband (and OM's wife), seems you may have deceived yourself. But you weren't brainwashed. Not at all. You signed up for lies on Day 1, from the moment you took the hand of another woman's husband into your own hand, and behind your own husband's back. When you did that, you said to OM, not in words, but in deeds, "I'm OK with lies!" That's the message you sent in big, neon letters, sister. What a pair you made, eh?
And y'know, I could've been your OM, itsamess. Not literally, but in just about any other respect. I was nice to the other woman -- I was witty, funny, smart, good-looking, fun to be around, attentive, a good listener -- and in order to keep getting the cheap, no-strings-attached affirmation (and let's face it, the free "strange", too) that she'd begun tossing my way, you bet I was fine with showing her the best side of myself, not my complete self. Let's imagine for a couple of sentences here that you were her: And, itsamess, you were never a commitment for me, you were always just an option. And you weren't the mother of my children, you weren't my first love, the woman to whom I'd promised "forever," with whom I shared so many inside jokes and so, so many good memories. And when your husband found out about us, I did what I'd known all-along that I'd do if ever forced to choose: I confessed to my wife, and you're damned right I "threw you under the bus," as you put it. I knew back then (even if I couldn't articulate it for awhile afterwards) that you were no one I'd want to spend the rest of my life lying about everytime we'd have met new friends & had to tell the story of how we'd become an item. I may have told you "I love you," and may even have felt it, but part of that was also my own fog & addiction, and part of it was a superficial chivalry (as in, "if you're sleeping with someone, you should say you love them -- it's the only thing a courteous & decent gentleman-scoundrel would do, right?" ).
But the truth was all there for you to realize anytime you chose. That you chose instead to deceive yourself is your fault. If anyone "brainwashed" you, itsamess, it was you yourself.
Get it?
You got questions? Ask me.
Read SAA & what it says about withdrawal. And answer my questions from above (the underlined ones) -- Not for me, 'cuz it makes no difference to me as a stranger on an internet forum whether you've put EPs in place; but answer them for you.
Itsamess, first, let me establish that everything I have to say here is being whispered, as a friend might do over a cup of coffee.
I'm 46, too.
I'm not going to pretend I have much good advice to offer to someone in a marriage in which both partners have been unfaithful. I also don't have any personal experience with serial infidelity. I know that ultimately, for you & your husband to have a great marriage, he needs to be all-in, just as you do. I also know that you can only clean up your own side of the street, and he has to clean up his.
You've been here for over 3 years. Have you ever read "Surviving An Affair"? That's not a rhetorical question, it's a serious question. What's your answer?
What are your extraordinary precautions? List them, please, in specific detail. I'll give you feedback.
Re: withdrawal, do an advanced search on this website for "managing memories and dealing with triggers." You'll find some very helpful information. Information that was immensely helpful to me after my own affair.
I think you need to take off your rose-colored glasses with regard to the other man. This is a guy who was willing to coldcock your husband. Figuratively-speaking, he was perfectly willing to ambush your husband from a blind alley, smash his face down into the pavement, steal your husband's wallet, kick him in the ribs & leave him lying there in a puddle of blood & broken teeth. Your OM was a thug. And you miss his texts? I'm not suggesting that you need to demonize the OM in your memories -- you don't need to at all, because the complete reality is plenty bad enough. I'm merely suggesting that you see the complete reality, including that side of reality that you've been willfully suppressing. Sure, OM was nice to you, for a spell; but he was a puke-inducing moral cipher to your husband -- a man who'd never done OM any wrong. And you've been choosing to overlook that.
And re: this: ..AND, of course, I was being brainwashed by the OM thinking that it was just a matter of time before he left his wife and we would be together....
Your entire relationship with OM was built on a mutual conspiracy of lies & deception. In the process of deceiving your husband (and OM's wife), seems you may have deceived yourself. But you weren't brainwashed. Not at all. You signed up for lies on Day 1, from the moment you took the hand of another woman's husband into your own hand, and behind your own husband's back. When you did that, you said to OM, not in words, but in deeds, "I'm OK with lies!" That's the message you sent in big, neon letters, sister. What a pair you made, eh?
And y'know, I could've been your OM, itsamess. Not literally, but in just about any other respect. I was nice to the other woman -- I was witty, funny, smart, good-looking, fun to be around, attentive, a good listener -- and in order to keep getting the cheap, no-strings-attached affirmation (and let's face it, the free "strange", too) that she'd begun tossing my way, you bet I was fine with showing her the best side of myself, not my complete self. Let's imagine for a couple of sentences here that you were her: And, itsamess, you were never a commitment for me, you were always just an option. And you weren't the mother of my children, you weren't my first love, the woman to whom I'd promised "forever," with whom I shared so many inside jokes and so, so many good memories. And when your husband found out about us, I did what I'd known all-along that I'd do if ever forced to choose: I confessed to my wife, and you're damned right I "threw you under the bus," as you put it. I knew back then (even if I couldn't articulate it for awhile afterwards) that you were no one I'd want to spend the rest of my life lying about everytime we'd have met new friends & had to tell the story of how we'd become an item. I may have told you "I love you," and may even have felt it, but part of that was also my own fog & addiction, and part of it was a superficial chivalry (as in, "if you're sleeping with someone, you should say you love them -- it's the only thing a courteous & decent gentleman-scoundrel would do, right?" ).
But the truth was all there for you to realize anytime you chose. That you chose instead to deceive yourself is your fault. If anyone "brainwashed" you, itsamess, it was you yourself.
Get it?
You got questions? Ask me.
Read SAA & what it says about withdrawal. And answer my questions from above (the underlined ones) -- Not for me, 'cuz it makes no difference to me as a stranger on an internet forum whether you've put EPs in place; but answer them for you.
100% truth no filter. Awesome post GO.
Look at this way. If you stick to no contact for 30 days, the feelings will dissipate. Dr. Harley says this, and he has worked with thousands of couples, so he knows the patterns.
In addition, if you spend AU time with your husband meeting each other's needs, you can rekindle the flames.
As ML said, take a one week trip together. Dr. Harley recommends couples in recovery take a long vacation together, even longer than 1 week if you can get off work that long.
When my wife and I recovered our marriage, we went on a cruise together and had a great time. We dated, went out often and did the fun things we had stopped doing as husband and wife. We got our relationship back on track. Try it. If you do, you will be able to get the POSOM out of your thoughts faster than you think, and maybe even rekindle the flame with your husband.
But you both have to buy into MB's.
I'm not going to cherry pick the things you say that are problems. I'm not sure that is helpful to you, though I do agree with the others that you need to come to Jesus and rid yourself of excuses and rationalizations.
But consider the advice Dr. Harley gives about marriage recovery. You have to start by spending a lot of time with your husband as I indicated to you in the earlier post quoted above. If you are serious about recovery start the program and follow through. You will have to remake yourself.
Lao Tzu was onto something when he said:
�Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habit. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.�
Follow the program. Follow the program.
To glove oil.....thank you for the candid, from your heart post. It has been the most eye opening post I have read and has given me much to think about.
I realize that I meant nothing to the OM. Even if he had run to me instead of back home to his wife. It would never make me more than the OW that he was with.
I appreciate and have taken to heart all the other posts as well.
I want to try to get to the bottom of the complex insides of ME. I am tired and ready to begin a life of truth and honest living. I would love to live that life with my husband. I would love to live that life honoring him and being the wife that is present and not constantly distracted.
I am committed to using the Marriage Builders principles to accomplish that.
I am committed to using the Marriage Builders principles to accomplish that.
Then stop talking about OM and start talking about recovery.
To glove oil.....thank you for the candid, from your heart post. It has been the most eye opening post I have read and has given me much to think about.
Please answer the questions that GloveOil posed to you, itsamess. GO's post was very eloquently written, and your words to him, along with the rest of your recent posts here tell me that you are still in "leading with emotion" mode. It's time for you to switch that off, get serious and lead with logic and reason, itsamess. It's time to take action in order for you to achieve your stated goal:
I am tired and ready to begin a life of truth and honest living. I would love to live that life with my husband. I would love to live that life honoring him and being the wife that is present and not constantly distracted. I am committed to using the Marriage Builders principles to accomplish that.
Talk is cheap, itsamess. What are you
DOING about this? Like GloveOil, I would be interested in seeing a list of your EPs, and would also be happy to go over them with you -- I am also a FWW.
And itsamess please don't make the wrongheaded assumption that you can only be helped by those who were once wayward -- I have been here since 2005 and the folks that I credit with helping me the most happen to be betrayed wives, but I have learned a lot from many people here no matter what label might follow their name -- keep your ears and mind open where that is concerned, okay?
It always gives me a chuckle when I read a fresh-out-of-the-affair-wayward come here and cry out for former waywards to come to their rescue, because I think they believe that a FWS will be gentler on them -- and they are dead wrong. I'll have to paraphrase this out of respect for the profanity filter here, but ever hear the phrase, "You can't bullshoot a bullshooter"?
I think you'll find that we FWSs will be very quick to tell you when you are full of it -- just like a many years sober recovering alcoholic would do for a newly sober alcoholic.
Now that everyone here has acknowledged that withdrawal sucks [and it does], lets move on, okay? Best way to get through it is to take action. Have you read everything there is to read on this site? Have you ordered and begun reading
Surviving An Affair? Get to work and report back with some lists and any questions you may have about marital recovery, itsamess.
Mrs. W
I want to try to get to the bottom of the complex insides of ME.
Let me help you with that, and prevent you from wasting loads of time with pointless navel gazing. There is nothing at all complex about why you had affairs, itsamess. REALLY.
You had affairs because you did not use extraordinary precautions to protect yourself, your husband and your marriage and that allowed other men to meet your intimate emotional needs and you to meet theirs and romantic love developed due to that.
That's it. It really is that simple.
Place yourself in temptation's way and you will fail EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. We all would. Extraordinary precautions are the answer.
Mrs. W
It always gives me a chuckle when I read a fresh-out-of-the-affair-wayward come here and cry out for former waywards to come to their rescue, because I think they believe that a FWS will be gentler on them -- and they are dead wrong. I'll have to paraphrase this out of respect for the profanity filter here, but ever hear the phrase, "You can't bullshoot a bullshooter"? grin I think you'll find that we FWSs will be very quick to tell you when you are full of it -- just like a many years sober recovering alcoholic would do for a newly sober alcoholic.
You better believe it.
As far as EP's go I have been totally honest with my husband and the OM wife. I have answered any question they have with total honesty. It has hurt me and them to say and to hear what was asked and answered. I have committed to spending all my time with my husband. We do things together like go out to eat and watch tv and just try to enjoy time together. I account for every minute of my time (willingly) and he has complete access to my phone and computer.
Your EPs need work.
You need to add
at least 2 things: No opposite sex friendships and no nights apart.
I have committed to spending all my time with my husband.
This needs to be more specific.
All your time? That's pretty vague and unrealistic. You need to commit to 25 hours of Undivided Attention time a week - 4 dates
out of the house meeting the four intimate emotional needs.
We do things together like go out to eat
How often? Are the intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection and recreation companionship being met during this time? Does your husband agree?
and watch tv and just try to enjoy time together.
The TV time doesn't count.
itsamess, why are you ignoring my posts? Should I spend my time elsewhere?
As far as EP's go I have been totally honest with my husband and the OM wife. I have answered any question they have with total honesty. It has hurt me and them to say and to hear what was asked and answered. I have committed to spending all my time with my husband. We do things together like go out to eat and watch tv and just try to enjoy time together. I account for every minute of my time (willingly) and he has complete access to my phone and computer.
Okay, like Prisca told you, your EPs need work. Please read this excellent column by Dr. Harley:
Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair I would be interested to hear your thoughts after you've read it.
Mrs. W
P.S. Have you gotten a copy of
Surviving An Affair? Be warned, itsamess, none of us will stop asking this question until you answer it!
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67
The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.
These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.
Checklist for How Affairs Should End
_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.
_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:
_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).
_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).
_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).
_____Spend leisure time together.
_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.
_____Avoid overnight separation.
_____Allow technical accountability.
_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
You're ignoring my post as well. I wrote to you about the great, glaring hole in your EPs that is the fact that you can communicate with OM at your workplace. You are a serial adulterer, and Dr H insists on special measures for such people, including earning money in such a way that your spouse can see everything you do. He has to be able to see what you are doing 24 hours of the day (except when you're in the bathroom - and even then I would't be too sure), and he can't do that if you are working away from home.
This requirement is more stringent for you than it would be for someone who had one affair that they conducted at or through work. In their case they are addicted only to the OP, so as long as they are kept away from OP and the normal rules for recovery are followed, there is no chance that the affair will resume or a new one will start.
Serial cheats are clearly addicted to cheating per se, and not just to a specific OP, although you engaged in very degrading behaviour with this one person in your last affair, showing evidence of your addiction to him. Recovery is not possible with a serial cheat unless she can be accounted for at all times.
I won't think you're serious about recovery, and just compensation for your H, until you address my point here in this thread, and change your lifestyle.
You're ignoring my post as well. I wrote to you about the great, glaring hole in your EPs that is the fact that you can communicate with OM at your workplace. You are a serial adulterer, and Dr H insists on special measures for such people, including earning money in such a way that your spouse can see everything you do. He has to be able to see what you are doing 24 hours of the day (except when you're in the bathroom - and even then I would't be too sure), and he can't do that if you are working away from home.
This requirement is more stringent for you than it would be for someone who had one affair that they conducted at or through work. In their case they are addicted only to the OP, so as long as they are kept away from OP and the normal rules for recovery are followed, there is no chance that the affair will resume or a new one will start.
Serial cheats are clearly addicted to cheating per se, and not just to a specific OP, although you engaged in very degrading behaviour with this one person in your last affair, showing evidence of your addiction to him. Recovery is not possible with a serial cheat unless she can be accounted for at all times.
I won't think you're serious about recovery, and just compensation for your H, until you address my point here in this thread, and change your lifestyle.
Very much agree!
itsamess,
You have two of the betrayed wives that I have personally learned the most from posting to you -- MelodyLane and Sugarcane. It would be very wise of you not to ignore them and instead heed their words -- if I were you I'd even go so far as to click on their names and read posts they have made to others -- it doesn't matter if the posts were made to a WS or to a BS -- the knowledge possessed by these two ladies should not be overlooked. Also, should any of the posts you read trigger a feeling of anger in you, pay special attention to those because it's very likely that it's a message you especially need to hear.
Mrs. W
Im not ignoring anyone's posts at all. I asked my boss to remove the phone from my office and I chose to give my laptop to the media center. I now have to go to the front office to answer the phone and I use the computer in the library if I need to use the internet or send an email.
I am interested and ready to repair my marriage. I will add those suggested EP to my list as well.
Im not ignoring anyone's posts at all. I asked my boss to remove the phone from my office and I chose to give my laptop to the media center. I now have to go to the front office to answer the phone and I use the computer in the library if I need to use the internet or send an email.
I am interested and ready to repair my marriage. I will add those suggested EP to my list as well.
You can still contact OM at work. Did you read what Sugarcane posted to you?
He has to be able to see what you are doing 24 hours of the day (except when you're in the bathroom - and even then I would't be too sure), and he can't do that if you are working away from home.
When I first talked to you about your workplace, you breezed right past my suggestion and responded with something like "that's very interesting!" and that was that. That was the only attempt you made to address my point. When I reposted asking whether you would take my suggestion, did you reply? Forgive me if I missed it but I did not see a reply, so it seemed to me that you were ignoring my post.
In the post above, I was careful in my wording. I erased my initial wording, which said that you could communicate with your OM via the office phone, and I replaced it with
...the great, glaring hole in your EPs that is the fact that you can communicate with OM at your workplace.
To clarify: you can commmunicate with your OM anytime you are not with your H, and the 8 hours a day you spend at your workplace is a great opportunity for you to do this. I'm not going to put any ideas into your head, and in any case, even the dumbest wayward can work out ways of doing so that do not involve the office landline or PC.
You persist in not addressing my point about the only way to recover with a serial cheat - which is to be able to see what they are doing at all times - and your tone to me when you do respond is light and dismissive and just a touch offended. I don't think you'd sound like that if you were serious about recovering your marriage.
Im not ignoring anyone's posts at all.
Well, I keep asking questions that you don't answer. Maybe you don't call that "ignoring." Anyway, it sure can't help to skip that stuff.
itsamess, if you'll go back and read my posts and answer my questions, I can probably help you.
If not, I'll just quit spending my time here other than to point out to anyone reading that when people post like this their recovery outcome is usually not good.