This is going to be long, so I apologize in advance.


I have just found marriage builders, and spent a long time yesterday reading through all of the basic concepts, and I finally feel a glimmer of hope that our marriage is salvageable with some work.

Here's our situation. I am 28, my husband is 31, we have been married for 10 1/2 years. We have two children, 10 and 7.

Not that I am by any means a perfect person, throughout our marriage, it has been my husband's poor decisions that have caused huge issues and have driven me to the point that I am seriously considering divorce.

He has made many varied terrible decisions that have been draining emotionally and financially. Possible cheating (I am unsure to this day, he stills definitely says no, but he admits he at least considered it) that was years ago, recently, he drove home drunk and damaged my car (thank god he did not cause an accident, get caught, or hurt anyone). He has had issues with porn, and the list goes on. A major one is he lies constantly, about small and big things, and it is a huge love buster for me!

The major issue is what I mentioned in my title. Sexual abuse. We have had sexual problems basically our whole marriage, it has flipped between one or the other of us not getting enough sex/intimacy. Mostly him though. I now realize that after reading the concepts, I had created a sexual aversion by giving into sex when I didn't want it, and unknowingly had actually followed the advice on getting over it. Almost 2 years ago, we had been working on my lack of sexual interest by doing touching exercises and all that, much like is described, and I was finding I actually was feeling some interest and was looking forward to the sessions. He was very understanding and not pushing me at all to be sexual.

So, here's what happened. I am a very heavy sleeper, yet also suffer from insomnia. I can sleep very heavily at times, especially when I take something to help (I have zero issue falling asleep, but cannot stay asleep). What I am aware of definitely happened over multiple nights as I have figured it all out. At the time, I first thought it was a dream, but I now know he was touching me in my sleep sexually, and actually fully at least started the complete act (he did admit to this). He also admitted to using the webcam to broadcast this stuff on chat roulette, a video chat kind of site that connects you with random strangers. I was completely repulsed and felt very violated. It just crushed my whole world and I felt I had no safety in my own home.

What I don't know, how long this went on for sure (he says just days i think) and I don't know that I trust there are no actual videos out there on the internet somewhere, that either he created or maybe someone could have recorded from the site.

It has been a long time, and I still cannot get over this. I don't know how to approach this with the MB mindset, as I feel that my trigger is my husband himself.....and even more specifically his penis. I can't hardly bring myself to look at it, and certainly don't want to touch it or pleasure him in any way. It brings back a lot of emotion and I am so traumatized by it I still cry every time I think of what happened.

I know that his greatest or at least top two emotional need would be sexual fulfillment but I don't know that I will ever be able to WANT to have sex.

Is it possible for this marriage to work, when either his greatest emotional need is never met, or I am forced to submit to his sexual needs even though I find them damaging?

We have not seen a counselor, I am afraid they would recommend divorce honestly, and it isn't really what I want. He is still the father of my children, and there was a time we were very much in love. He is very remorseful and wants to work through this as well. In fact, he has just begun reading the info on this site as well.

I need to know specifically, what actions I should be taking to help, the basic concepts make so much sense to me and I really want to try to make things work.

Hi, Blackbird, Dr. Harley typically finds that when other problems in a marriage are resolved, sexual problems usually resolve themselves. In cases where they don't, there may be a sexual aversion. You will probably find a lot of helpful information in his sexual aversion article:

*link removed*

However, in your case, I would suggest that the real problem is these other issues in your marriage. He possibly cheated? I would want to not only find out the truth about this, I would want him to set up the situation to make cheating impossible so that you can trust that he is not cheating. Porn? Has he stopped this? Lying? Drinking? And then his horrid behavior with broadcasting you without your CONSENT??? In the face of all of this, there is no way you can cure a sexual aversion, until he actually changes something and you have a chance to see that the change is permanent!

Do you have Dr. Harley's book Love Busters? Your husband has got to address all of these things once and for all and help you to heal from them before your relationship can be healed.

Given your husband's possible cheating, and sexual abuse, you might consider clicking "notify" and asking the moderators on this site to move your thread over to the "Surviving an Affair" forum. Some of the people there might have some good insight for your situation.

I have no idea how a person comes back from a sexual assault. Personally, I could never recover from this. What about this marriage is there to save? You can't be intimate with the man and you can't ever feel safe sleeping in the same house with him. What is there to save exactly?


Maybe your emotions are correctly telling you something. Trauma such as this is something to avoid, not to embrace.

Blackbird, I have removed the link to Dr. Harley's sexual aversion article. You've obviously already read it. Understand that you cannot overcome a sexual aversion without a lot of changes from him. The aversion is protecting you. Trying to overcome it in an unsafe situation is dangerous.

If you are interested, Dr. Harley has a daily radio show and takes questions by email. He and his wife Joyce host the show and are great at providing help to people. You could ask him what it would take to overcome this. The address to email is mbradio@marriagebuilders.com . The radio show site is: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=12

Your husband has raped you and should be charged as such. Take his computer to the police and tell them you believe that it contains evidence of your rape. If he uploaded it to the web, it is on his computer.

Criminal acts cannot be addressed using MB concepts.

You were raped.

That is criminal.

I agree. Ugh. You have been violated in the most horrible of ways.

Thank you, CWMI, your explanation clarifies a lot for me about this situation.

I definitely realize what he did was very wrong...criminal even. And I think he recognizes that as well. We do both want to get through this, but it is a lot to overcome. I hesitate to even ask on the radio show, it's the same reason I don't go to a counselor. They are going to say divorce. But if we are both determined to NOT divorce, isn't there some hope? Is an abuse situation ever fixable? What about verbal or physical abuse...not quite the same, but if they are ever overcome, our situation has some similarities. I have started reading the affair board as well, I certainly can see how a lot applies to our situation, even though I'm not sure that any sort of affair ever went on. I don't know what my next step should be. I'm not ready to leave, as painful as it all is.

You can stay married to him while he is in jail, and while he completes his rehabilitative treatment for his sexual predatory nature.

Think about it--if he will do this to HIS WIFE, what else might be up to? Wouldn't you hate to say nothing and have him face charges of raping someone else? Someone you could have protected?

You are protecting him from the consequences of his actions.

He needs public accountability for his deeds. He will NEVER get that women are not objects for his pleasure until he is held accountable.

Your next step is to inform the police. You have *evidence*. There is something very, very wrong with a man who would rape his wife. Think about that. I think you have been.

At the very least, he should enter a program of recovery for sexual predators. The police can tell you how to find them.

I am thinking along the same lines. How do you come back from being sexually assaulted?

If this marriage is savable, Dr. Harley is really your only hope for coming up with a plan. I would call the radio show before taking another step.

I don't think the answer is necessarily divorce. But your husband is going to have to get some serious help in order to protect you from himself. He's going to have to do a LOT of changing. Dr. Harley can point you in the right direction.

QFT

Does anybody else know what he has done to you? Your family? Your friends?

No one else knows. I think it would be really weird to say, and I don't think family and friends could ever look at him the same. I don't want to ruin his life and cause a big thing. I just want to heal and move on with our lives.

How are you going to heal? Only you can answer what it will take for you to forgive, and what you will do from there. You've said he seems remorseful--is he? What kind of remorse do you need? What kind of repentance has he offered?

"Sorry, I won't do it again" is NOT remorse and repentance.

You can't make it un-happen. Some people cannot put these kinds of things behind them until they remove the violator from their life. You've been struggling against this for a long time...what will it take for YOU to heal?

For me personally, I need someone to be willing to acknowledge the harm they've done and make PUBLIC apologies for PRIVATE transgressions.

You don't want to ruin HIS life??? He ruined his own, hon. He raped his wife. He ruined yours. Hiding someone's wrongs does not help them do better.

Think about oft-quoted material from this very site.
If people who have ranked infidelity above the mental and psychological pain of rape can recover their marriages...

This occurrence is far too common to have not been faced by Dr. Harley.

HHH, I believe those people are not talking about being raped by their own spouse, but strangers or acquaintances. This kind of rape carries with it the betrayal by a spouse AND physical assault. Who feels deep betrayal by strangers?

I, however, also don't think the marriage is beyond saving. Also however, I do not think Blackbirdfly is helping her marriage recover by keeping his secret.

There is something very psychologically wrong with a man who would do this to his wife, not once, but repeatedly. Normal people would feel deep shame the first time and never do it again.

Please do email the Harley's, I am very interested in what they have to say. I wonder if they would recommend a sex addiction/sexual predator course of rehabilitation.

Blackbird, do ya'll attend a church?

(ooh, I do, and we had a special speaker last night for married people, who recommended that the church start a new ministry, made up of at least five HUGE GUYS, call it the "Laying on of Hands" ministry, and send them out to "heal" the men who scream at their wives. lol. Love my church!)

Why do you say this is common, HHH?

But those people have not been sexually assaulted by their husbands. Just because the TRAUMA of those crimes is in the same league, doesn't mean the crime is the same. Many people do come back from adultery, because good people can and do commit adultery. But what kind of person RAPES? It is a completely different animal. What is the procedure for coming back from THAT? I don't profess to have any idea.

I would say that this falls into the same category as physical assault, and Dr Harley recommends separation from wife beaters for at least a year to see if professional help will change them. I would think AT LEAST the same path, if not something more stringent, would be warranted.

So while the trauma of certain crimes might be the same, the solution is not the same. Someone who rapes his wife on tape and broadcasts it on the internet is sick and dangerous, IMO.

You don't have the power to ruin his life. If his life is ruined it will be because of his disgraceful criminal behavior. Your family and friends SHOULD look at him differently. Obviously, their view of him is based on faulty information. By keeping this secret, you are protecting him from the consequences of his behavior which only ENABLES him to be a bad man.

You should tell everyone what he did and DEMAND he get professional help. Personally, I would kick him out until he got his head on straight and would only take him back if a professional psychiatrist assured me he had made a remarkable change. He is dangerous to you.

For rape to occur withing a marriage? Sexual assault to occur between a wife and her husband?

Because statistically, it is common. Far too common.

Not justifiable. Not excusable.

And that mention was again because; as a clinical psychologist specializing in saving marriages, Dr. Harley has without a doubt faced situations exactly like this in his decades of practice - and probably multiple times.

IMO UR O is not that of a mental health professional or psychologist, so the approach this woman should take to her marriage is all about what is in her O, yannow.

Where are you getting your statistics? Do you have a link to a study, quote from a reliable source?

10-14%

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/wiferape.shtml

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/pdf/US_History_of_Marital_Rape.pdf

10-14% is far. too. common. PERIOD.

Happens. too. much.

In.a.nut.shell.

committed

Cause a big thing??

Lord...this is a HUGE thing.

He has violated you in the worst way known to womankind and you don't want to make it hard on HIM?



Just...

committed

I'm actually in a very similar situation. My husband and I have been through several "rough patches" over our three-year relationship including an eviction (he was handling all the bills and I had no idea we were even late), legal problems causing him to be arrested and thousands of dollars in atty fees, two serious motorcycle accidents due to reckless driving - the second causing him the loss of most of the use of his right arm/hand, he disabled all three of our vehicles and we are now without transportation, he cannot seem to keep a job...

He started treating me differently shortly after moving in together. There used to be a high level of respect between us both and we would never call each other names or disrespect one another in front of friends or talk to our friends about one another or raise our voices, etc.. He suddenly began yelling to shut me up, I found out that he had been talking to my female friend about our personal relationship issues behind my back (which ended our friendship) as well as forwarding embarrassing, private pics I *very* reluctantly allowed him to take on his phone to almost all our mutual male friends as well as forwarding text messages he received from me that sent alone, out of context, sounded horrible considering no one knew I had reached my breaking point after being harassed all day via text message while at work over petty issues. He even sent one or two of these to his mother.

Our relationship has slowly degraded over time until present when I also recently have been waking at night to find him touching me even after I have specifically told him I know what he is doing, it is NOT right and he better stop. There hasn't been any penetration, but I still feel VERY violated. Each time I wake and push him off me and react, he either apologizes and says he'll "never do it again and he doesn't know why he keeps doing it" or he blames me saying it's my fault b/c I have deprived him of affection and sex OR he vehemently accuses me of masturbating and that automatically means he can join in, of course. How I'm touching myself in my sleep when half the time I sleep with my hands over my head or pants on I have no idea, but he calls me a liar when I deny it and even yells and reacts almost violently when I tell him he is absolutely WRONG and I was in no way doing what he is accusing me of doing.


I feel stuck b/c I ("we") are now in such a bind financially due to him currently being unemployed again and our only income being my small unemployment check and the fact I am also completely stranded here due to my car being out of commission b/c he HAD to make a spur-of-the-moment trip late one night after I told him not to use my car b/c it wouldn't make it - the engine light was on and I needed an oil change. He also pretty much drove a wedge between most of my friends and I, even friends he didn't know that well and even friends that knew me years before they met him or they *only* knew him through me.

The funny thing is, even with all his suspicious behavior and lies (several email accounts all w/different pswds, locks on his calls and msgs in his phone, disappearing for hours at a time while I have no idea where he is or who he is with or finding out later he wasn't where he said he would be), he has attempted on more than one occasion to install a keylogger on MY laptop, he has tried installing a text message tracer on my cell phone (along with constantly reading my text messages and emails b/c I don't like my accts), he has tried installing cameras around the apartment for when he is not here or I've found him watching me from another room... Luckily for me, he is also *extremely* scatterbrained (he has AD/HD but refuses to see a professional or seek medication or treatment for it) and each time he has tried installing these programs he has also left the program open after it was done installing on my computer or phone and left the camera up on either his computer or MY computer or on one occasion I found his phone, recording video, set up in our bedroom while I was getting dressed after a shower.

He has promised me we could go to counseling together, but so far, his idea of counseling is to search for articles online about how wives "withholding affection or sex" in a marriage is wrong and therefore, I need to start having sex with him "like we used to". Meaning when we first started being physical with each other and naturally were having sex as often as possible, sometimes more than once a day. If I refuse to have sex with him, he'll immediately go down the list of all the other things he would accept in lieu of intercourse even when I've said I don't feel well or even if we just had sex within 24 hours or less! And on top of harassing me daily about it, he also masturbates *several* times a day and will disappear to our bedroom for at least an hour if not several hours with the door closed - sometimes confiscating my laptop to look at porn. Even after I've told him I don't want him using my computer for that (he even tried using my *sister's* laptop to watch porn while she entrusted it with me to fix some virus issues she was having!! He waits until I leave the room or fall asleep or am not paying attn, then does whatever he wants anyway..

So frustrating!!!!!!!

Darksville it is a terrible situation you are in....I would suggest copying your entire post and starting your own thread and asking for help.

We have done a lot of talking, and I'm not sure where we will end up, but we both want to try. He has brought up possibly going to some sort of sex addict therapy. I'm not sure if that would make a difference or what, but I appreciate that he even wants to. I have considered having him move out, but I'm not sure what separation would really accomplish. I know he knows how very serious this has become. I think before he thought once it was all out that was the bad part, but it's just been festering all this time. I can see how exposing him could be beneficial, but I also see a lot of serious harm in it. I mean, an affair or something is one thing, but being called a rapist.....that's something else. The label is harsh to me. I don't know what to call it. And I would NEVER want my children to know what happened. I have a feeling that would come out at some point if we were to tell anyone. But I also don't know what I would say if we split up. Anyway, I just bought his needs her needs on my nook, and I'm reading it and he wants to as well. We have a lot of work to do on our relationship, and I'm not sure if it will even make a difference in the end. How I wish there were some way to just wipe my memory clean!

Darksville....

we do have a lot of similarities, except for the financial is quite opposite, my husband has worked every day of our relationship, and I exclusively handle the money so we are stable with that. But yes, I think my husband blames me for withholding sex and does not take full responsibility for what he did. He also admitted to me he is still using porn, even though we have been over it many times. I don't know if he is capable of stopping, but I just don't have the tolerance for it, I don't even know how much he is doing it or how big the problem is, I don't even feel like dealing with the issue right now.

Anyway, until recently my husband just did not get it, but I think he is now in the place where he truly wants help and realizes what he did was really wrong, I think your husband needs to get there and stop blaming you. Of course, I am in no position to hand out advice.

If its not a rape, then why not tell folks? Get their perspectives. I can imagine the label is very harsh. But why? Is rape harsh? I think the reason it sounds so harsh to you is because you are in denial. And it is for that reason that exposing it would be helpful. Keep in mind that if you had called the police and given them this evidence, it is very likely your husband would have been arrested. Rape is a very harsh word because the ACT is very harsh.

I don't see what going to sex addiction therapy would do for rape. I think you should write Dr Harley and get his professional perspective on this.

Blackbirdy, do think it would be wise to leave yourself unprotected or your children?

From the links HHH provided above:

"...Everyone has the right to live in a safe home. " And you have no right to take this safe home from you children. I see that your H doesn't see himself as a threat nor do you. I would seek help immediately.

Ok well, I found out my husband contacted Joyce last night and will be on the show. At first I was mostly upset that he was going to be on the show, as I didn't want that. And then I realized that it at least can't hurt to get a professional opinion, but I'm still annoyed that through all of our talking, he still would do something like that and not even consult me. I'm sure he will be reading this, but I don't mind.

As far as my children go, I am very careful with them and honestly if I felt at all that he was a threat to them, I would without a question be gone, no matter our relationship, my children's safety comes before all else.

When he told me about writing the show I asked him to forward me the email so that I could see what he wrote. I was extremely disappointed and hurt with how little he mentioned, all he said was a brief "I touched her in her sleep" plus some other stuff that I don't even care about anymore. I think he has a major disconnect in what he did, and perhaps tries to just minimize to himself even. Maybe I do too sometimes. I have been doing a lot of reading on the surviving an affair area and have learned a lot, some of it is so like my feelings and our situation, some of it is way off, I mean, it's not exactly an affair, but he was doing this with other people on the internet. And I definitely could not think of a better word than feeling betrayed. I just don't know what steps to take now. I don't know if I can resume a sexual relationship with him, but I feel that I have to at some point, as obviously we can't be married forever this way.

So he lied to them? They can't very well help if he lies. You might want to email her yourself. I did email them the link to your post so I hope they see it before the show.

Oh i guess I forgot to add that. After I read the email and expressed my displeasure, he DID send a follow up email referencing my post on the forum (which I suggested) and also wrote some more himself. He sent me that email too so I know he did do this. It also seems that he actually talked to Joyce to set up the time so I have hope that he is actually going to be honest this time with the whole truth. I don't know if that will be the case, sometimes I wonder if he can help all the lying.

Is he on the show today?

yes, he was just on.

So what did you think? Interesting that the Harleys had to beat the truth out of him.

I'm listening to it as we speak. Wow. He is really trying to hide it from them.

For a minute there, I thought he was going to lose his nerve and not say it. I'm not sure if they would have if he didn't, but in the end he was very forthcoming and truthful. Much more so than he has ever been to me really. I was really proud of him for doing it, I know it was a really difficult thing to do. And he was really nervous about being on the show period. He said he didn't know they were going to be so specific, but I think it is better that they were!

I guess I wasn't really surprised by what was said mostly, but I did learn a few things. One, perhaps it hasn't always been smart of me to continue sleeping in the same bed with him, but I have been and I do believe he has been respectful of me. And with the Dr. saying it, I guess I really do have some trust and love left, I must if I am going through this.

Another thing, I was unaware that he was actually turned on by my being asleep, which I'm not really sure I've fully processed that, and not sure what it means to me. I mean, obviously he was turned on, but I mean more so than if I was awake.

I would definitely agree on the type of liar he was pinned as, and that was no surprise. I like the idea of a counselor, but I honestly don't see why he wouldn't just lie to the counselor, and he probably would.

The biggest thing is sex. He's not supposed to do anything sexual without me, but that means I'm supposed to have sex with him then I suppose. We haven't in awhile, at least a couple of months I think, and I'm not too thrilled about the thought, but I am feeling a lot better towards him just because he did take this step to get some help. We didn't have sex for at least 6 months after this happened, and it's not been often since.

He's gone all day with work and other stuff so I haven't been able to have a conversation with him about the show, it's almost surreal....the fact that he even did it.

I thought it was interesting that he had brought up the baby thing in his email, as yes, it was upsetting 10 years ago, but we have moved past it, it was the first very hurtful thing though, and that's when I found out that I was married to a liar. Honesty is so important to me (top emotional need!) and I had NO idea that he had such issues with fulfilling that need until I was married with a newborn and stuck. I felt very resentful and it took a LOT for us to move past it, but we did. It is amazing how fluidly he lies and even has elaborate scenarios to go along with his lies, he's very good at it, so it is harder to trust him. He can lie to my face so smoothly I never knew what hit me. I'm sure he could trick any counselor as well.

The sexual thing, I just don't know. I know I need to TRY for this marriage to work.

Oh and I was very relieved honestly that the doctor said 1) it's not that uncommon and 2) it's fixable. I know Joyce said that was it, she would be gone, and that's pretty much what everyone says that hears the story, but for him to actually give a plan and not say divorce him, it means everything to me. I don't want to think I'm just being stupid for wanting my marriage.

"I guess I wasn't really surprised by what was said mostly, but I did learn a few things. One, perhaps it hasn't always been smart of me to continue sleeping in the same bed with him, but I have been and I do believe he has been respectful of me. And with the Dr. saying it, I guess I really do have some trust and love left, I must if I am going through this. "

I think Dr Harley was trying to express how inappropriate your trust is, BB. It is not wise to trust your husband, and that is why he was so startled to hear that you affording trust to an untrustworthy person. That is something that will harm you and harm your marriage.

so what is the answer then? I don't want to sleep in separate rooms, and he wouldn't either, and of course, the kids would know something is going on as well.

I would NOT take that sleeping aide again. And I might even sleep with a loaded pistol on my nightstand along with a phone so you can call 911 if he does this again.

And I would destroy the webcam he used to stream his assault on the internet. Get that out of the house forever.

well, i don't take them every night, but I do sometimes, maybe twice a week...I can only go so long on 2 or 3 hours of sleep. And we have webcams built into 2 out of 3 of our computers. I'm not sure if there is some way to lock those...but honestly, if he ever did it again, it would just kill me. The first time was devastating enough. If he really wanted to do it again, he would find a way. I know that, but I am trusting that he won't. There is obviously no marriage if there was ever a repeat.

BB, I would not sleep with him again when you are taking sleeping pills and I would disable the webcams. Don't make it possible for this to happen again.

Are you financially dependent on him?

[quote=Blackbirdfly]so what is the answer then? [quote]

Follow the advice given by the professional - your husband was advised to enroll in an accountability program, use the Marriage Builders accountability program.

He was advised to enroll in counseling.

See that this is done.

Listen to the broadcast again, LISTEN TO WHAT DR. HARLEY HAS ADVISED.

ENROLL IN THE ONLINE PROGRAM.

When you have questions, call your coaches, e-mail the program.

The reactions of others are to be expected. Joyce's reaction is to be expected.

Hopefully you have e-mailed the program as well, and get a chance to get on a future broadcast to go over this.

Yes, blackbird. I think this would be very helpful for you guys.

I'm trying to put this out without being too harsh or offending, but honestly, Blackbird, I think if you want to have any hope of moving through this, that cool and objective opinions are going to be what you need.

This has been hot-button from the first post, and it hasn't cooled down yet.

When it comes time to apply Marriage Builders principals, then it will be time to come to the forum where people are good at applying Marriage Builders principals. Until that point is reached, your husband needs to follow Dr. Harley's recommendations, and you should; mail the radio program, enroll in the online program, or call the coaching center.

Excuse me? Who gets to judge this? Are you asserting that you are the judge of what is "cool" and "objective?"

ok, so I've just spent a few minutes looking up counselors and stuff, and I'm having a hard time finding any that say they specialize in what we need......i guess I'll have to start just calling and asking...

I realize this is kind of beyond the scope of MB, but, we have all these marital issues (and have for years) on top of this other issue....before this ever happened. Which, maybe he needs to get this fixed first before we can really hope to work on our marriage. Or ideally, we do both at the same time. We can't really afford the counseling, but we may just have to handle some extra debt to fix this.

And someone asked if I was financially dependent, well the answer is sort of. I do not work, but my parents live close by and I know it would not be an issue for him to live there, or if things went badly between us, the 3 of us could live there and I would be fine picking up a job.

Well, back to searching for a therapist, we live near a small city, so probably not as many options as some places but I will see what I can find.

Go pick a fight with someone else over your offenses, I'm not interested this time.

Gee, I thought that was what you were doing when you told her to ignore opinions that you don't deem "cool and objective." How helpful is that?

blackbird, my suggestion would be to start using the MArriage Builders program NOW while your H is getting therapy for impulse control. I want to also make sure I understand your financial situation. Your husband supports you, right? So you are dependent on him?

In order to do the program, you and your husband can do the lessons at home if you are diligent and methodical. Is Dr Harley sending your husband a book?

And lastly, I want to make sure that you are taking seriously what I mentioned about preventing this from happening again. If your husband has poor impulse control, you can't "trust" that he won't do this again. You have to make sure he CAN'T.

What did your husband think about his call with Dr Harley?

I'm quite certain she can make those judgements herself. For instance, sleeping with a loaded pistol.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember that coming from any MB materials or from the broadcast addressing this very poster.

Also;




When you quote MB materials, it is objective advice. Your very first response was guided by your personal feelings, interpretations, and prejudice.

What was given on the radio show was objective.

Now, I am done. Reply, have the last word, and be satisfied.

I have a suggestion, HHH. Why don't you allow others to express their opinions and you can express yours? Your own opinion is just as influenced by your personal feelings as anyone else's, but we don't dismiss yours, do we? How "cool and objective" is it of you to arrogantly encourage her to ignore opinions just because you don't happen to like them?

She doesn't need you on this thread picking fights and discouraging others to help her. How about we help this poster and lose the arrogance?

Simple, Mel. Because we aren't here to share our opinions, we are here to discuss Marriage Builders.

My "opinion" was to; have BB e-mail the radio show, call the coaching center, or enroll in one of the online programs.

When MB materials are presented with citation, I will stop "disrupting."

Fair enough?

Recent posts have disrupted this thread. This is not fair to the thread starter, so stop now. Let's get back to Marriage Builders advice.

I really enjoyed the radio program today. I felt it had valuable advice, and apprciate the opportunity to hear Dr. H talk to your husband.

Thanks, Ariel.

BB, it is obvious that your H has problems with intimacy.

Intimacy is not sex, but can lead to sex and often does.

You mention at one point that you "had problems but..", you didn;t define them, and that might be nessesary to regain intimacy.

When you care for someone you want them to be involved in your life, and you communicate, honestly, and comepletly, you don't act desparate and sleazy, and expect that to suffice for a need like sex.

He has taken sex out of the picture of a healthy relationship, where two people give to each other, out of desire, and oneness.


Sex is the culmination of mutual care and relationship, and the need is for relationship first, and sex is not the point, its the reward.

Yes it is an emotional need, mostly exhibited by men in certain age groups more desparatly than women, but the woman have needs also, that must be attended to, just as much as his, and just as despartely.

I am hopeful because he talked to Dr H, that you can overcome this aversion, because he seriuosly applied himself. He has a sickness, and the Dr can help, because that is what he does.

May you heal your marrige, with the tools provided, because they work. No matter how sick he has become, there is a way out.

Trust, truth, radical honesty about your needs and his, and the tearing down of false strongholds in the mind, are nessesary here. It might not happen overnight, but the investment is worth it,

God Bless

Dr. Harley's advice was perfectly in-line with the consensus of the scientific community, with the added benefit of having a focus to recover the marital relationship.

The usual advice for this man's problem is 90 days of PMO (Porn, masturbation, orgasm) abstinence to let his sexual associations realign.

The advice here was total PM abstinence, and absolutely no sexual activity or stimulation which does not involve his wife.

Unfortunately, his "sexual perversion" is another thing that is far too common now days with high speed internet and internet pornography, which is why the American Society of Addiction Medicine has rewritten their definition of addiction to include behavior and/or sexual/pornography addiction.

I wish I could say things were better....in some ways they were since the show, but perhaps not surprisingly to others, honesty has still been lacking. I have done a lot of thinking and realized I needed something. I have asked him to take a polygraph test to clear up what has happened since I found out what was going on 2 years ago. I am no closer to being over it since the day I found out.

Well, he has agreed to do it, but not exactly enthusiastic about it. Which is one question, policy of joint agreement, how does that work when you need your spouse to be accountable?

Since figuring out I'm really doing it, he has told me some more things. Like he attempted to do it again, and only stopped b/c he didn't have good lighting and was afraid I'd wake up. I'm not sure when this happened, he says months ago, I don't know. I know he has also been previously banned on the chatroulette site, so whether that involved just him (he says that was the case) or it was another thing with me, I don't know. Of course, I don't know if this is a little bit of truth to get me to not do the test (I'm still doing it) or if he is actually being honest now. He has also confessed that he feels he cannot control himself and he feels very tempted to do all this stuff. He has asked me to lock down the computers which I am doing, but he does still have his phone and there are other devices that do have internet like game consoles and e-readers and endless things. There's no way to effectively shut it all out but he will have to work a lot harder to try and do anything.

I know he is worsened b/c we are effectively in a sexless marriage. It has been about 3 months, and is pretty rare otherwise. I just can't do it though.

And some clarification since the show didn't really stress this. It has been close to 2 years since I thought this all had last happened. Immediately after, he did not sleep in the bedroom, he did not see me naked, I did not take any drugs. We did not have sex for 6 months. It has been slowly returning to the norm as I felt he was honest and sorry and remorseful and would NEVER do it again.

Obviously I am now finding out that this is not the case. I don't exactly know what I am going to do now. I know he needs to get therapy, especially for the sexual deviancy. We are waiting until after the new year due to high deductibles with our insurance. I wish it didn't come down to money but we just don't have the extra to pay that much out twice within a couple of months.

I have just been completely blindsided again, I fell for it all again, I believed him, he lied to Dr. Harley, he lied to me. And as far as my kids go, I still definitely believe he is not interested in harming them and never has and never will, or else I would be gone. However, I take no chances in that realm and definitely believe my kids have always been safe.

I hate having to think about all of this stuff....I know he is not a monster, he wants to be better and he loves me. I know I love him. But it's hard knowing how many precautions we will have to take, probably forever, to prevent stuff like this.

PoJA will become applicable when you reach a point where you believe you are beginning to recover your marital relationship.

Right now, you are still trying to figure out what the heck you are recovering from, so what you need to get the foundation is not subject to PoJA.

Hopefully, he is staying away from the porn and chats... but considering the depth of his compulsion... it's doubtful.

Again, abstinence from porn, masturbation, and orgasm (from his previous sources) needs to be avoided so that he doesn't require hyper-stimulation to become sexually aroused.


How many web accessing devices do you really need in your house?

This doesn't sound like he's very enthusiastic about changing the marriage to an honest relationship.

Yes , how much has he really committed his ENs to this marrige?

Honestly at this point I have to say I don't know. I don't know if he is truly commited. I don't know if he is being honest. I have more doubts than ever before.

As far as all the devices, we have a ton. The Internet is a lot harder to get rid of than another woman it seems.

Ironically he just told me about an almost EA/PA? IN AN EMAIL! I am just so sad, so tired, so over all of this. I am not sure if I want separation or recovery at this point. This (non?)affair happened a few years ago and we lived in another state so I'm finding out way after the fact...I can't handle another thing on my plate.

My husband and I have a lot of history...and coming to a good place finally took a long time. Well, what I thought was a good place. He has a lot of trouble with lying (the stay out of trouble liar) and even when speaking to Dr. Harley, he did so much lying, what was the point?

Anyway....it took a few years, but I was really feeling in love and happy in my marriage, but I guess in the back of my mind, there is always a question when you live with a liar. So, in a light way, I asked him....is there anything else I don't know?

He confessed something! He told me he had met a female friend (friend to both of us) for a drink one night, which I knew about...I had opted not to go bc we had young kids and it was late. But that she had confessed feelings for him and said she had a sexual fantasy to perform a sex act on him, he said he wasn't interested, loved me and said it was best not to see each other anymore.

I was very happy that he told me, he had done the right thing, all was good right? Except....well, I got a little objective advice...and first thing was they said if that had happened to them, they would have told their spouse immediately....and I realized that was true. Anyone would have, there is no reason to hide that. So I pressed. And I snooped. I looked at his Facebook and realized he had erased all communication between them, even though he doesn't erase messages usually. Well, why erase it?

So yah, I asked some more, and also pretty much threatened to call her and ask what happened (which I did later) and slowly, painfully, his story morphed into what is probably the closest I will get to the truth.

First he admitted, it hadn't happened that night, but another night....he later admitted he had texted her and asked her to come to the house. I was on vacation with the kids and he was flying to meet us the next morning at 5 am. In that text convo apparently she said she had the sexual fantasy. He then changed his mind and told her to meet in a grocery store parking lot, this is like 11 pm. I guess they talked, she confessed she has liked him for years (he says he didn't say he liked her, but she says he did) he asked if she was serious about wanting to act out the fantasy she says yes, but they don't act on it. He says he loves his family and can't do it, they hug and part ways and more or less stopped speaking.

Oh and he says he met her bc he was bored, which I don't believe...as he got out of school at 10 pm, met her by 11 pm, and had a flight at 5 am. I believe he was drinking. I think he was hoping to get some from her, I don't know about feelings. He is adament he didn't like her like that....but they have been friends for years, I found out he had been giving her rides home from work without telling me, there were rumors at work something was happening....he denies it and says only that night was anything inappropriate.

Oh and he was also her boss at the beginning, but then after awhile he moved on and then she did so they do not have contact anymore. I made him unfriend her on fb, they both maintain they haven't really talked since. I don't know if that is true. The thing is, this was a year and a half ago, but I just found out.

I would have been ok if he confessed when I asked, but it wasn't until I was going to find out from her two days later what actually happened that this came out. And even then it took all day long for the "real" story. I feel like there is likely more he is covering up, maybe not even this incident, but other stuff....and he will just never be honest with me.

I told him I want to separate. I don't think I want a divorce but I don't know how to fix this. I am in need of objective knowledgable help....what do we do now?

Blackbird, there are so many red flags here one hardly knows where to begin. Your husband has a lifestyle that leads to affairs so it is not hard at all to understand why he had an affair. He has opposite sex friendships, goes to bars with women, takes them home, etc. It sounds like you spend the nights apart which is another invitation to affairs.

The way to fix this is for him to change his lifestyle so this can't happen again. He should affair proof your marriage. And the first step in all of that is for him to end ALL contact with the OW and set up his life so that he is so transparent that he CAN'T lie or cheat.

In your situation, I would start off by insisting he pass a polygraph. Schedule a polygraph for him but a couple of days beforehand, give him a list of all your questions. He needs to answer all your questions truthfully before the test. He must pass the test, though.

The affair should also be exposed. Is this OW married?

I would get the book Surviving an Affair [can be downloaded on kindle for PC's] and read it so you understand what you are dealing with.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Also, it is more likely that your husband had a long term affair with this woman and probably did bring her in your home when you were gone. I don't believe they didn't have sex.

I would also verify if she really works at his place of business or not. It is obvious that your husband is not mature enough to supervise women. Only a very loose cannon would have an affair with a female subordinate. Does he still have that job? Does he supervise other females? Someone like your husband needs to be supervised, not the other way around.

I am definitely going to get surviving an affair. I had already personally decided he would need to pass a polygraph before we were back together, but maybe we should do it very soon?

The thing is, this woman's husband died not long before after a fairly long period with cancer. It was not easy for her, and I'm sure she was not in the right state of mind, although that is no excuse....I feel more like he took advantage of her feelings for him in the hope of sexual gratification. There are a few times a year I am gone a night or two and I cannot avoid that. It is possible to look into him being able to come too though.

Do you think we should still send a letter even if the affair died on its own so long ago? As far as I know this is true. I know his passwords, he is not secretive with his phone at all, his time is 100% accounted for almost always....he has been much more interested in the marriage and working on us meeting each other's needs.

I think they became something more than coworkers in 2009 and everything ended in 2012.

It seems just mean to expose to everyone when it is already done and over with.

And, I'm guessing physically separating would make these steps a lot harder, but I'm just so angry. It happened a year and a half ago to him, but yesterday for me. I don't know that he can be in my house, and I have to look at him, and cook his food and do his laundry while I think about him and her and their fun little secret life they had for years without my knowledge.

Bkackbird, this man had sex with you while you were sleeping and broadcast it over the internet, multiple affairs, and who knows what else.
you earlier posted he drives drunk.....is he an active alcoholic?

Did he take a polygraph in 2011?

He would say no, and as far as I know he will go days without having anything to drink, and usually has one or two beers or glasses of wine when he does. But I think he likes to drink excessively at times....he never even told me he was drinking that night, she told me that and he didn't disagree. So I don't know what or how much.

Yes, I would do it now and make his passing a condition of reconciliation. If he flunks then I would reconsider staying with him.


I certainly would not trust him alone for even one night a year. Do you know for a FACT that her husband is dead? Do you know for a FACT that she doesn't work there? Do you know for a FACT that they have ended contact?


But you don't know if the affair is over. His time is not accounted for at all if you are not there. Are you there to see what he does? Do you know each and every word he types on his computer?

Do you have a keylogger on his computer?


It should be exposed regardless. And there is nothing "mean" about exposing an affair. It is therapeutic. It helps everyone involved. The more people who know about your husband, the more people to hold him accountable. And the more people to support you.

I honestly don't see anything here to save now that I have read your previous posts. Your entire marriage has been one long string of heartaches. If this was a good marriage, I could see the point, but trying to save a marriage with a sexual predator, a pathological liar and an adulterer seems like a poor choice to me.

The only way I envision you could ever feel safe with him is by spending 24/7 with him. You can't even leave his side for one night because he will have other women in your home having sex with them. I am certain that is what he did with this employee.

threads have been merged.

I know everyone must read this and wonder why I want this, but I do love him....and we have two kids together and he is a good dad. I don't want to spend the rest of my life without him....we have goals for our future together, dreams to move elsewhere and enjoy the second half of our life when the kids grow up. He is my best friend.

But maybe he isn't, and my perception is wrong....but I do feel he loves me and I do feel he is always sorry after....but he just won't quit doing stupid things. I used to monitor him more closely, but I got tired of it. I just don't want to spend forever checking up on him, no matter what I can never keep him 100% accountable. It doesn't feel like what a marriage should be, more like a parent/child. I don't know how to ever get to trusting him again, or him being trustworthy, or maybe he never was.

Your love for him has not protected you from his abusive behavior, though. He has had multiple affairs and has violated you by assaulting you in your sleep and putting the pictures on the internet. I strongly suspect he brought his OW into your home while you were out of town and had sex with her. The issue is not your love for him, but that he is not SAFE.

What would you tell your daughter to do if her husband did the same to her?

No, he didn't. I was prepared to go through with it, but he opted to come clean to my questions and then some. However looking back it's possible he only told me some to get me to let it go. That was another possible case of infidelity that he admitted to then. He said he had an infatuation with someone but it wasn't reciprocated and to this day he will swear he never had sex with another person in our entire marriage. But I think he was honest with the full extent of the internet video stuff, and that is done. I took several steps to be sure it simply can't happen.

You posted the above in 2011 and it is notable that he was probably having an affair at that time. I think you will discover he has had multiple affairs and will continue because he knows you will do nothing to stop him.

You believe a liar was honest?

That's the thing. I know I would never want a marriage like this for my daughter. Intellectually I step back and look and think this is crazy.

However I have zero proof that he ever actually had a sexual affair and he will not admit it. I have proof of almost affairs, but that's not quite the same. He swears and she swears that they were planning on her coming over but met at the store instead. I even checked little details, like they both said she got out of her car and got into his, and that it was his car, not my car...and they agree on where they met...but they could potentially have made up and agreed on a story back then.

Yes, he did have a sexual affair but he is still lying about it. There was nothing stopping him from having sex with her. Even if he persists in lying about whether it was sexual or not, it is still an affair. One of many. A affair is an affair. He emailed you about another sexual affair in 2011 so you know this is a way of life for him.

And of course they coordinated their stories. The story about her dead husband is probably a lie too.

I kind of believe him, he is so insistent he did not have sex with anyone. I think for as much trouble he is in, what would be the point of holding back. I just can't know 100% without proof, so even if it sounds bad, I don't know that he definitely did. I mean, he just swears he never did anything.

His lying though, he lies and lies and lies some more...little stuff, big stuff, I'm thinking maybe I will ask him to find a counselor and fix that before we can think about being together. Sometimes I think he just plain can't help it.

No, he admitted to 2 affairs so far. That is proof. There are many more.

Blackbird,

He lies to you because you believe him.

I read that sentence about going for drinks with her and her wanting to perform a sex act? Got a knot in my stomach. It's like watching a train crash in slow motion. Do you not realize that it isn't normal to go drinking with a woman at night when your wife is at home with the children? It's ludicrous and you have been in an abusive marriage so long you think it's in the realm of normal.

In one sentence you say you kind of believe him, then in the other, admit that he just lies all the time. You are an extreme enabler here and until you are willing to face the cold truth, nothing will change.

He abuses you for years and you just accept it. Why would he change when he doesn't have to? He can do whatever he wants and you will not divorce him. He has it made.

A polygraph would e a good first step. Did you get STDs from him?

Alis is correct, the bigger problem is your enabling.

I definitely know her husband is dead. That is a definite fact, he died of colon cancer not too long before they met up. I know because he also worked in the same building as a cleaner, eventually got sick and had to stop working, got sicker, and died....and I was friends with her through all this time. And there was a funeral and all of course. I also know she has been in at least one relationship since then as she was posting pictures and all all over Facebook, and personally told me about it, and how great he was and blah blah blah. Ugh now I'm mad all over again at her.

A polygraph would e a good first step. Did you get STDs from him? [/quote]

No, nothing like that ever. Have always had a clean bill of health and I had a full checkup in October.

If she disappeared off this earth tomorrow, she would simply be replaced by another.

The bloodwork that is part of a full checkup does not include STD testing. Your doctor would have to specifically order STD tests in addition to the routine bloodwork. If your doctor has never done that, you've never been tested for STDs.

Also, some STDs will not show up on a test until they've been in your system for a few months. So even if you got a clean STD test in October, you would need to get another test a few months later--and have abstained from sex during the time period between those two tests--in order to know that you truly do not have any STDs.

Is this your WH back in 2011?

Radio Clip of Blackbirdfly's Husband
Segment #2
Segment #3

Your husband IS a liar.
You are too gullable at this point (I won't say trusting because it is beyond that).

Who CARES if the OW's H died from cancer? That is zero excuse for being a horrible person.

Period.

Here are some good examples of questions to ask.
Polygraph Testing

I would separate and file for D. Your WH sounds like my ex's twin...serial cheater, habitual liar, affairs with subordinates...

Personally I would not bother with R. A person like this is just too messed up. I have lived it and would never tolerate this crap again. Get away from this toxic person.

This is a lie...period. I would bet my left arm. A woman who wants to jump your husband's bones does not go to your house while you are away on vacation and then opts to go to the grocery store vs getting naked.

Wake up blackbird!!!

That is him.....I haven't listened to it since when it happened but I do remember he was not truthful in the conversation anyway.

Your WH's behavior is not that of a "best friend" or anything remotely close to one.


You will have to always check up on him. Either you are willing to live like this or you're not.

What are you thinking of doing at this point?

I don't know. I know I am going to read surviving an affair. And I am going to schedule a polygraph...I have to figure out what to ask. If he passes the test, I have to believe he is being honest. If he fails it....I don't know...I guess we will be looking at long term separation, and maybe beyond.

I have to head out the door but agree you need to do a poly. Prepare yourself for more attempts of trickle truth from WH. I told my then WH not to talk to me because I was tired of hearing his lies (that he and OW never met in person, then they met but only talked, then they only kissed once, then...blah blah blah) Until you have written out your questions and booked the poly, be prepared for this...or the silent treatment or more gaslighting. Personally I would make him do some work and have him at least do the leg work of looking for a couple poly places. Let him sweat!!!

So, bit of an update...

We had a very long talk, I asked many tough questions, pushed to get as much out as possible. I started with having made a bunch of possible polygraph questions, it helped me keep track of what I wanted to know, and this session will help me ask the right questions on the polygraph.

First of all, he still absolutely maintains he has not had sex with another person. The closest was attempted kiss and this was years ago.

He says towards the end of this EA/ended in almost PA...he was concerned she was getting a little stalkerish and he was freaked out. She attempted to make contact many times after he repeatedly asked her to stop. She apparently last texted him September 2013 to say happy birthday, he did not respond. He says he did not unfriend her on fb bc he was afraid of retaliation (her exposing to me I guess?)

He feels she was very emotionally invested in him, and him not so much in her, more friends than sexual attraction, but he did plan on meeting her that night for sex, just changed his mind.

He has somewhat pursued several women over the years but never to affair point. Only women at work that I know of, writing this out, I'm thinking they were all subordinates but not sure if that's coincidence or a thing with him.

He has had a LOT of internet problems....chatting, webcam, personal ads, porn, etc.

He has been accessing porn and masturbating at work. We have had a fairly sexless marriage (due to his disinterest) and he always claimed he had no drive. Testosterone tests came back normal. Turns out he is masturbating regularly at work at least, which was pretty shocking, and the way he is doing it is honestly risking his job. He could easily have accessed porn at home via multiple devices, even his phone at home or work but instead opts to do this, not sure what that means.

He has a drinking problem. He confessed he sneaks drinks all the time, like if I go to the bathroom, he will quickly drink...he makes drinks very strong, he drinks when alone, etc. I feel that makes him an alcoholic, I'm not sure he agrees.

He has stopped using the webcam, but attempts (and is often successful) in molesting me in my sleep. This one took a long time to draw out, but he now says this was as recently as last week that is over 4 years that I know of....he finally admitted he cannot control himself....obviously what I thought were safe measures were not and though he can't broadcast it on the internet, he still likes to do it. (I had not known this) I have been careful to not alert him to any sleeping aids I take but he obviously has figured out a system, and we are probably looking at long term separate sleeping. I asked very specific questions and it was pretty shocking and difficult to hear, but at least I know.

There was a bunch of other stuff, but mostly I think it points to more that he has major sexual deviancy issues more than anything. He is clearly into getting sexual thrills in a variety of abnormal ways.

He even admitted he molested a child once when he was in his midteens a cousin, she is grown up now and as far as I can tell she would have been too young to remember (like maybe 2?)....and he swears that was the only time, I do believe him that he has never touched our daughter inappropriately but obviously it will be asked on the polygraph. I was sexually abused as a child and he knows it, very very difficult to hear these things.

So, I am going forward with the polygraph. I told him in no uncertain terms that if he fails, I want a divorce.

I told him he is risking all of our lives by his pornography problem at work, and he has been instructed to delegate someone to restrict the devices he is accessing on, and he will not know the password.

I told him I want a no contact letter written (we will have to send via fb, or he can call her in my presence and read it, I'm not sure she will get the fb message, what is better?) she has moved, changed jobs several times, etc, and neither of us have any other way to contact her. I want to do this ASAP, so advice please! Also, should the no contact letter be different since it is supposedly one sided communication and the affair imploded a year and a half ago?

I am planning on exposing to our parents. I am waiting until the polygraph, if he is truthful that it went as he said, I think it will be sufficient. If it is a lie, I will expose to anyone and everyone I possibly can. I feel there is no extreme rush given the circumstances.

I'm going to ask him to start seeing a therapist, however...I'm not sure that will help due to the fact that he lies so much. Even during this major conversation he lied several times and I was able to catch a lot by asking a lot of questions in a variety of ways and walking through stories step by step.

Is there a way to restrict or track an iPhone as far as porn goes? For my kids I use an alternate browser but they aren't great and it would be nice if there were a different option...he is certainly willing to do that though.

Any other steps I need to take right now? I am going to schedule a polygraph ASAP when I call Monday morning.

I would suggest you separate and run as fast as your legs can carry you away from this man. This site does not advocate marriage at all costs.

I am sorry to see you are so delusional that you believe its forgivable for your WH to molest a child as long as he only did it once ( and you believe him because he has lied to you all this time about EVERYTHING). Please wake up. There is nothing to love about this monster you married.

People like you make me so angry because you enable and support the world scum bangs and make excuses for them. The man you are married to is dangerous he needs to be exposed to the authorities, all friends and family as soon and possible and you need to get away from this toxic situation.

Drinking is not an excuse for his behaviour, childhood issues are no excuse for his behaviour, THERE IS NO EXCUSE for his behaviour and should a miracle happen and he gets help then it will take months and years for him to become a worthwhile member of society again. Run while you can before you end up on the front pages of papers as the enabling wife of a monster who covered up his crimes for him.

I see no hope for your marriage.

Trust me, I am not saying what he did was forgivable. It is never ok to molest a child, even once....but he was in his teens, many years ago....he didn't have to tell me, it wasn't on my radar and it never would have come up on the test. What he did was wrong, but he regrets it, has never done it again (I will verify), and as long as what he says is true....well I love him, I want my family to be together, and I want our marriage to work.

And drinking is definitely not an excuse, and I don't think he thinks it is...I just finally decided to confront him about all of this. I know I have buried my head in the sand.....for far too long. I have enabled his behavior, I see my fault in this. And it stops now. We will figure out a system of complete accountability.

And of course, this is only if he passes. I have to accept that if he fails, he is simply incapable of changing, or at least not willing.

If I had known everything, I wouldn't have married him. But....I didn't know, and I did marry him. We have two amazing children and a life built together. I just can't face losing all of that when I feel there is hope. If he passes, there is hope.

Serious question

What is your limit???

What does he have to say or do in order for you to walk away??

Just because someone confesses something does not negate what they did.

Would you forgive a mass murder because he told you he was one when he didn't have to tell you??

Please consider you kids are NOT safe, and you are not safe. I would rather be alone in a ditch that allow a sexual deviant to be part of my family and raise my kids.

And it's horrible, I know it sounds so horrible.....

I've been very stupid and naive. But my divorcing him will not change what he did in the past. I've really opened my eyes in the last couple of days...don't know what took me so long, but all this time, nothing could have gotten better, because I let him manipulate me. But I'm not going to now, and I realize we are looking at a lot more precautions than a "normal" marriage....and maybe in the end it won't work and I will divorce him, but I feel I could still try....

I haven't thought of what my limit is. Failing this polygraph is a limit. Finding out he has ever touched another child inappropriately is a limit. Rape, murder....horrible things, I of course would leave.

But everyone makes mistakes....this happened like nearly 20 years ago (the molestation) then it seems to me he does not have an active problem with it. Surely he would have done something else in the last 20 years, right?

Maybe there is just something mentally going wrong with him, I don't know...but he isn't a monster....he really is a good person in so many ways, and I know that no one who knows him would ever suspect his history.

I feel like I am sitting here defending him, and I really don't mean it to be like that. It's not ok, he needs to change, there's no way I am determined to stay with him no matter what. We are at the brink of separation/divorce and it could go either way, I just don't know....but I think it is fair to give him the chance to pass a polygraph, this is the first time he is truly being held accountable and he is willing.

He already told you that that he has sexually molested at least one child. That isn't enough? How many children would he have to admit molesting before you would consider it a "horrible thing"? He has also raped you many times in your sleep--and aired it on the internet--and you haven't left.

He has, but you've been in denial! And the sexual molestation of a 2-year-old girl is not a "mistake." Do not use minimizing language to describe such a monstrously cruel act.

I cannot believe you haven't even told his cousin what he did to her when she was a toddler. TELL HER IMMEDIATELY, and explain that he only admitted to one incident, but that cannot be true. Your husband is a sexual predator. He has been preying on children since he was a teenager. Child sexual predators do not have a single victim on a single occasion.

Contact the police. Tell them about his illegal, predatory sexual activities regarding 1.) his cousin, and 2.) molesting you in your sleep and sometimes airing it on the internet. Tell the police you want him arrested and inform them about his computer activities. If the authorities search his electronic devices, they will find child pornography. And please stop deluding yourself at your own children's expense; your husband has probably molested them, too. He may have stopped when they became old enough to remember and tell you (as he did with his cousin), but he has almost certainly done it. Please educate yourself on the psychology of a child sexual predator.

He likely finds his victims via the internet and those "personal ads" you mentioned. He has already admitted some of his predatory activities to you, so you can no longer claim ignorance. Stop making excuses and stop covering for him. Call the police.

And Ted Bundy was a nice guy except for the times he wasn't.

I'd advise to keep yourself and your child thoroughly protected from him, not vulnerable and trusting and get that polygraph done yesterday. He has such a secret second life that it's downright frightening. You need to view him as a predator right now, not some poor lost soul that just needs a little bit of understanding.

I've got to wonder why him taking advantage of you AS A HABIT isn't past your limit. Self respect - you deserve it.

The thing is that you can't save him or control what he does, you can only control the way you act and react. By you accepting and quite frankly at times enabling his depravity towards you never mind kids you are effectively not giving him the help he truly needs to do permanent changes.

No one out there LOOKS or ACTS like a predator to the general public so how he looks and acts to others does not make him "normal" in any way. You know the truth and you are not rejecting the vile acts he committed by sticking by him and giving him more chances.

In 2011 you believed him (despite knowing he is a liar even then) that he stopped assaulting you while you slept then now 3 years later he admits he did it again only this week and hasn't really stopped. Where is the sing if hope you so easily speak of??

Would you believe Dr Harley if he told you to divorce your Husband?? I have notified the moderators in the hope he will look into this thread and advise you as no one here is getting through to you so far.

What more evidence do you need that this is hopeless?? How many times has he taken part in trickle truth that turned out to be more?? And how on EARTH can you claim he is a good father?? On what planet is a man with his depravity ever a good father? Just having devices with porn on them in a family home where kids can stumble upon them is an offence of disgusting fatherhood on its own never mind the rest.

What will you tell your kids if as adults they stumble on the videos he posted on the net of you being molested??? "It's ok darling. Daddy didn't mean it" ???


You should set an example for your kids and teach them what's right from wrong and be brave enough to expose the deviant behaviour of their father so they don't grow up accepting abuse like you have.

You really need to realise that his depravity will come to light one day for sure and people will literally hate you for knowing about it and not doing anything for all this time, you will loose your kids, your family and friends because depravity like that won't stay hidden for long and you will be part to blame for knowing about it.

I know he will either fail the lie detector or you will be persuaded again not to make him take it. Either way I can't read anymore of this thread, I have never been a big fan of sitting back and watching another human suffering or getting in a situation where they will get seriously hurt. Hope this marriage is worth all the abuse.

Blackbird, I am astonished that you see anything to save here. I don't see the point of getting a polygraph with a man who is:

1. a serial cheater
2. a child molester
3. a sexual predator
4. a husband who sexually assaults you in your sleep and puts the picture on the internet
5. a man who masturbates and watches porn at work
6. is an alcoholic

A polygraph will not solve those problems.

You are not safe with such a man. The past is the best indicator of your future. You have used this excuse to ignore his crimes in the past and it has only resulted in MORE AFFAIRS and MORE SEXUAL ASSAULTS.

It will take much, much more than a polygraph to save this. This is a man who sexually assaults you. And I would wager he continues to take pictures of you and put them on the web stream.

I don't usually recommend counseling, but you are in dire need of a counselor who can help you with reality testing and boundary control.

Blackbirdfly,

You are worth MORE.
You deserve MORE than what your H has to offer.........rehabilitated in the future or not.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that a disturbing number of alcoholic fathers have sexually molested their own daughters. Your husband isn't "just" an alcoholic; he is also a sexual predator and pedophile. What are the odds that he has never sexually molested any of your kids? Even in the unlikely event that he hasn't, why are you continuing to put yourself and your children at risk by allowing him to live with you?

Agree

How old were you when you started dating your WH? You could not have been older than 18 when you got married and gave birth to your first child. Was your age the reason he hid your marriage and pregnancy from his family?

Ok, I am reading this all, and I am really thinking about it. Am I delusional, I don't know, I don't think I am...but I'm thinking you all are assuming he is much worse than he actually is and everything is not that bad. That is my interpretation. So, assuming he passes his polygraph and is telling the truth...

1. a serial cheater

He has never had sex with another person in our entire marriage

2. a child molester

yes, very bad, but one time 20 years ago.

3. a sexual predator

I don't think he is a sexual predator

4. a husband who sexually assaults you in your sleep and puts the picture on the internet

That is true, but he stopped the internet part, and yes, it's bad.

5. a man who masturbates and watches porn at work

This, I don't know. How common is this I wonder? It seems weird to me but maybe a lot of men do this.

6. is an alcoholic

That is probably true, but I haven't had enough time to really analyze this because it only just occurred to me yesterday when it was mentioned on the thread.

So again, this is assuming what he says is the truth....it just doesn't seem to me that he is a horrible person.

He swears he has told me everything at this point. And already at work today he is taking steps to be sure he has no access to porn. It is not complete yet but he needs one person who isn't in today, and they will be there tomorrow. We are calling to set up a polygraph tomorrow.

I don't know...I have all these people telling me he is all of these horrible things, he is telling me he is none of these things. I can't imagine him being those horrible things. He is telling me everything wrong he has ever done in his life basically. He has never been so forthcoming with information. I don't believe he has hurt my children or any other child, other than that one time as a teenager....which I asked him again. He says one time. I would tell him to apologize to her but if the timeline is right, I just don't think she would even know it happened.

I was 16 when I met him. 18 when I married him, and had our first child a couple of months later. I am not exactly sure why he hid it. He kind of has a habit of just not acting and letting things happen, so he basically just didn't say anything. It was literally on our way (maybe 10 minutes away) from when I insisted they are meeting their grandchild (he told me they wanted nothing to do with us) that he came clean.

If you share his true past with 100 strangers in a room, and the overwhelming majority of the room stands up and tells you that You are making poor decisions in remaining with him......

Is it worth then reconsidering how you are seeing this picture?

I just want to be clear that I don't think a polygraph will make this a marriage worth saving, but a way to uncover possible criminal activity that the authorities could act upon to keep him from hurting others, too. Maybe you could see an attorney and spill out all that he's done and all that you are worried about and see if they have something they could do, while you get yourself and your children out of there, and I mean, right now.

What is the history of the molestation?
I see it referenced by others.
Is he a convicted child molester?

This is sickening. I cannot even read this thread anymore.

I wouldn't want to involve the police, in fact I'm concerned about what I can even ask to be sure it doesn't involve police, as I'm not looking to get him in legal trouble.

And about those 100 strangers....well they are all saying things that are worse than what he actually did (again, assuming what he says is true) if they took what is his truth and still said I need to divorce, maybe that is different. But again, there's no way to have the whole picture, to know what he is like. I mean typing it all out, it's hard...it sounds bad, but he is more than just these things.

He is not trying to talk me out of the polygraph this time. He is ready to take it, I think he is being honest with me.

Jedi

"He even admitted he molested a child once when he was in his midteens a cousin, she is grown up now and as far as I can tell she would have been too young to remember (like maybe 2?)....and he swears that was the only time, I do believe him that he has never touched our daughter inappropriately but obviously it will be asked on the polygraph. I was sexually abused as a child and he knows it, very very difficult to hear these things. "

It doesn't matter if he's all "these horrible things" or not, he can prove himself while you are separated. Better to err on the side of safety, don't you think? The issue with the sex isn't just about whether it's on the 'net or not, it's about how he's knowingly treating you in a despicable manner, again, on a consistent basis.

Yes, you are. I say this kindly, but it is clear to an objective observer that you have minimized and rationalized his behaviors to a shocking degree. This is one of the worst cases of denial I have ever seen.


He has had numerous ADMITTED affairs that you have posted about in this very thread. And I seriously doubt they were not sexual. Your husband is a porn addict and as such, his interest in women is not emotional, but sexual. He would have no other reason to have an affair. This makes him a serial cheater.


One time is all it takes. And one time is all he has admitted. As you have learned the hard way with him, the past is the best indicator of the future. You know you can't leave him alone with your children.


This is the definition of a person who assaults his spouse in her sleep:

He has not stopped assaulting you. And it is doubtful he has stopped posting it on the internet.


And maybe they don't.


Yet you told us many times that he is a serial liar and here you are assuming he is telling you the truth. The issue is that he is not a safe person, Blackbird.

The polygraph is not the issue here: it is an inability to recognize when someone is a dangerous person. Even if he flunked the polygraph, I would expect you to rationalize and justify as you have here. I don't believe there is anything he can do to you that would help you recognize the danger.

It sounds like even his own family knows this. Have you spoken to his parents about his history?

Blackbirdfly,

We are extremely concerned about you and your children. The odds are not good that your H has not touched your children. In fact, the odds are that he has touched them inappropriately many times.

In fact, your H has raped you - not just molested you. And he deliberately chose to broadcast that rape over the internet. Even though he says he is no longer broadcasting/filming what he is doing to you, the rapes are still wrong. This isn't just one felony over the years, either - it amounts to far more!

I do not believe your H has been completely honest with you about anything that has happened. If (and I truly mean IF) you do a polygraph on your H, I would ask him as one of the questions if he has been completely truthful with you about everything. I would have your poligrapher word that in an effective/appropriate way.

Sexual predators escalate their behavior over time to experience that same dopamine high. Please talk to a crisis counselor at your women's shelter today. You are not safe with this man.

BB, the way you have rationalized his crimes is by comparing them to "worse" crimes. Exp: well at least he hasn't killed someone yet! Do you know you are in the habit of doing this? This is a denial tactic.

blackbird,

What can we help you with? You came here asking for objective help but you don't like what people are telling you. Given that you have been with WH since you were 16 (and I am assuming he is guilty of statutory rape too...there is not need to argue about he was only 19 vs 35) it seems like you will hold onto this marriage no matter what he does...no low is too low. And that is also the reason you don't expose properly. A poly is not going to change anything. The admitted offenses are already waaaaaay out there.

Your WH preys on the naive and vulnerable. He started dated you when you were sixteen. He molests/rapes you in your sleep. He molests a toddler.

As I said in my first post, I wouldn't bother with R. I recommend you separate and file for D. SInce he is agreeable to do the poly, get it done ASAP. There is not reason for it to drag out weeks and months.

I guess that's a good question. Originally I came here because I found out there was some level of affair that was happening, and I needed advice on how to best get past it, as it is marriage builders. Obviously I have since found out a lot more, and it is pretty overwhelming.

I don't know if this is the place to talk about it anymore.....I understand why others think it is not worth fixing, but I do want my marriage to continue if possible. I'm in love with him, I don't want to divorce....based on what are the facts as I know them now.

However, honesty has been something he has struggled with as long as we've been together, and if he fails, I will know he can't be honest. I can't even repeat the details he has given me, but I assure you I have grilled and found out the specifics and I think I know everything. He did molest her, and it was one time. It is very repulsive what he did, but it was nearly 20 years ago and the victim was not old enough to possibly remember. Again, I am not excusing it and I am totally grossed out by this information. Maybe I am wrong for loving him, but if I divorced him and broke up my family, it will not undo what he did.

As for being 16, he was 19 and I believe 16 is of age in the state we were in. I don't think he was searching for a young person specifically in any way.

As for the poly, he did talk me out of it last time. I realize now it was a calculated move....tell me a minimal amount to stay out of bigger trouble.

This time he is having it. It is an absolute condition to stay and work on the marriage. Hopefully it is not something there is a big wait for, I will call tomorrow and schedule as soon as I can.

If there is anyone supportive of recovery....that would be great. If not, I don't feel the need to be viewed as a train wreck to watch. I appreciate objective opinions....but if I have made my decision to stay, then telling me he could be worse doesn't really change my mind, if you know what I mean.

Possible poly questions:

Have you had vaginal, anal or oral sex with any person other than blackbird during your marriage?

Did you have sex with OW (name of OW who met him at the grocery store)?

Did you have sex with OW in your home?

Have you had any sexual contact with a minor child in the last ten years?

Recovery can only take place if he stops the offending behavior and makes radical changes in his lifestyle.

For example, what is the plan for him to stop drinking? What is the plan to protect you being raped in your sleep? What is the plan for him to stop masturbating at work? Looking at porn? Having affairs? Exploiting female subordinates in the workplace?

It won't protect you in the future, though.

I am not a poly expert by any means, but would it help to make a few changes on wording? (These are just some ideas I had.)


How about:
Did you have sex with anyone in your home?


Have you had any sexual contact with a minor child in the last 29 years?

This is my worry for you, Blackbirdfly. Love won't change your H's behavior.

BB, just as was the case in 2011, you have no plan for recovery here. So, of course we can't be supportive of something that does not exist. Having no plan is a plan to fail. We are all concerned that you have no plan to protect yourself from your husband.

I don't think Dr Harley would be supportive of having a man with a history of ANY child molestation in the same household with your kids. I believe I have heard him say that people who molest/prey on children WILL do it again.

The M wouldn't be a consideration - he would only be worried about the safety of your children, as you should be...

This is very disturbing.

I specified that specific OW since that is a story WH has already given to blackbird. The previous question of did he have sex with anyone would cover anyone during the marriage. That specific story would be blown up if he fails that question.

He already admitted to sexual contact with a child so going back 29 yrs would be going back too far. Has he had any since being married (which is now 12 or 13 yrs)? Or since the molestation? Since blackbird was 18 when they married any sexual contact before age 18 would be a yes to that question...which is not the reason for the question and why I shaved off a couple years...to avoid her being a consideration.

That was my thinking anyway.

I understand exactly. And your way makes more sense. Thank you for explaining, Black Raven.

blackbird, you should still expose to your family. Your WH has never been accountable for anything because you hide his wrongdoing and secrets. No amount of therapy is going to help him, whether you stay married or divorce, when you help him hide in the dark. If you love him as you say and want a decent father for your children one day, you need to stop feeling embarrassed, ashamed, etc. Right now you are his #1 enabler. If your WH was serious about changing his life around, he would also WELCOME the help vs wanting to continue cowering in the dark.

You may care for and love him (perhaps feel sorry for him) but are you really in love with him? Please think about this. Given that sex with him repulses you, you have never recovered from the rape, he is disrespectful to you and your marriage, he lies and several other things...how are you "in" love with him? To be "in" love, most women need a man they admire and who exercises care for them. I have a hard time believing you are "in" love with such a person and that you have more of a fantasy going on of what you HOPE he may be one day.

I see many acts here that might land your husband in jail. A couple that you know about are child molestation and marital rape. What if it comes out that he has molested your own children? Or others? Or raped others? That would sabotage your plan to uphold a marriage at all cost if he is in prison for his sexual crimes.

Is it against the law to rape your spouse in her sleep and put the videos on the internet? I don't know.

Are polygraph testers obliged to report crimes to the police?

BB,

You've chosen to create your own perception of your marriage and refuse to listen to it.

My neighbor can argue with me all day that my car tire is red, but I know it's black and he won't convince me to change my reality.

By most of society's standards, your husbands behavior is terrible.

But you certainly have the right to insist that they are all wrong, and he's just a great guy with a few flaws that's misunderstood.

Thank you for the questions. I need to find out the guidelines so I know how many questions I can ask....much has already been revealed so it makes it easier. I will find out and hopefully post my planned questions before the test.



I know I need a plan, I want a plan....part is the poly....porn at work he has taken steps....it is partially set up and will be finished tomorrow. I will take his phone today and block the regular browser. We all use the same iTunes account to it is easy to keep track of apps etc.

Sleeping, I don't know....I had not realized this was still a problem....he has not had access to webcams and stuff like that. I think the best solution is separate rooms but not sure how that will logistically work quite yet.

Drinking....I don't know, I can hardly feel like it's an immediate need to manage, but I do of course realize it's a problem. Could lock away alcohol and I could have the only combo.

He is restricted to one computer, it is in our bedroom and it already has parental controls bc of the kids.

He is the boss at his work, so everyone is a subordinate. As far as I know he was scared off by the situation he went through with the OW and has avoided forming any friendship or anything with anyone at work.

I'm sure much more needs to be figured out.

He sounds like a binge drinker.
I can tell you right now that if you try to get into a battle with alcohol the alcohol will win.
Vices are available anywhere, 24/7.

Can his phone make video recordings? These can be uploaded to YouTube.

Is the webcam disabled?

How is he restricted to this computer? How is he stopped from using any other computer?

Dr Harley recently mentioned a study in Iowa, at a mens rehab center...where 70% of the alcoholic men confessed to sexually abusing their children!

That's why I questioned his drunk driving.
A rational person usually doesn't drive drunk (or even get drunk) because they don't want to go to jail, kill someone etc.

Have you ever attended an AlAnon meeting?

So he is free to continue to exploit female subordinates at work?

There are some things I just cannot expose. The affair I plan on. Other stuff, I can't.

I was not in love with him for a very long time. I felt trapped and unhappy and yes, repulsed by him. But we have been so much better in the past year or so and we were in a good place and I was happy....in love, we have been having sex again semi regularly since October, which is a big deal in our marriage.

I'm not sure why I still feel in love now, I would have expected to feel like I did back then.

feelings of love are the result of someone filling up your Love Bank.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html

Obviously, your H meets some of your important emotional needs.

Read up on that here

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

Once you understand these basic concepts, you will see that there is no magic to love. It exists because it is meeting your needs somehow. You can chose what to do with the love. You can chose to either continue in this relationship or not waste more of your life on it and move onward to someone who is not so troubled and does not have so many problems to 'fix'.

His phone does have a camera, as far as I know he has never used it in that way, but it is going to be restricted from when he gets home today.

The computer he has access to is a desktop with no webcam. The other laptops are hidden, and have parental controls but I believe he does know those passwords, and they have webcams so too tempting to give him access to, unless I physically break the camera. He is not terribly computer literate but who knows what one can figure out with google.

His computer at work has a strong filter, but he was bypassing by connecting to wifi. He has now disabled that computers ability to connect to wifi....he says he wouldn't know how to get it back, but I can't actually verify), he lately though was accessing through tablets and the person in charge of those will be able to fully block web browsing with a password he won't know. The only other access at work is his phone I believe and I will take care of that.

How would you know, though? One does not need a webcam to post videos on the internet.


This is only what he tells you, which is meaningless. Does he own this company? An important component of recovery after an affair is leaving the environment that made the affair possible. As long as he stays there and has females reporting to him, he is free to continue affairs and to continue his porn and masturbation. Dr. Harley would suggest giving him 30 days to get another job [that is safe to your marriage] or you should expose his activities to the authorities in his company.

Your husband should not be in a job where he works with women, much less supervises them, because he can't be trusted out of your sight. I would start thinking of careers where you can be together 24/7 if you intend on staying with him.

Of course, I don't know how you would continue a marriage with someone who assaults you in your sleep. You can't even leave your doors unlocked at night.

Do you have any daughters?

You're welcome.


Kids share a bed. You share a bed with one child. Everyone stays in their beds but WH moves to the couch at night. Make it happen.


Do not trust any of this to be true...you have no way of knowing what he does at work...and you already know he lies and lies some more. My then WH carried on workplace affairs and was the boss. He was/is a weak man with crappy boundaries and would eventually find some stupid woman to give him attention. Even when the President of his company told WH to his face that he would fire him and would never have anything to do with him again if he continued cheating/lying after Dday1 (and this was an influential man in the industry who WH admired and was personal friends with) WH still continued cheating/lying.

Your WH has already admitted he can not control himself...and that is obvious.

He is trying to change jobs, I will encourage him to keep up the job hunt. The good thing is where he works now is quite far from where the OW lives, and I believe that was a big part in getting her to lay off. As it is I know she has visited at least once and even asked him to hire her but he didn't. I remember him telling me this (would have been a great time to come clean, but he didn't) and at the time I didn't understand why he was so negative about taking her on.

Wherever you sleep, you'd better have AND USE a good lock on the door.

What protection do your children have at night?

To be absolutely clear, if I had even the tiniest bit of doubt about my kids safety, I would absolutely have nothing to do with him. No one in the world is more important to me than them.

Oh, but he did. He became a rapist who regularly assaults his wife (or attempts to) while she is unconscious. And then puts it on the internet.

That you cannot see the obvious connection between these two behaviours is evidence of how tainted your thinking has become, because of your relationship with him.

If they truly are important to you, then what steps have you taken to protect them from him? You already know that he is a child molester and a rapist. Any responsible person would be taking extreme steps to protect their children.

And how is it that he is able to assault you while you are asleep? When my husband touches me I wake up. Are you taking narcotics?

That question has been bothering me from the very beginning. Blackbird your description is very similiar to the stories I have heard from people who have been drugged with the date rape drug.

I have never taken sleeping pills so I have no idea if they would actually be strong enough to keep you asleep while being assulted but it sounds suspicious to me.

Is your family nearby? WH's family? Who is on the exposure list and more importantly when are you going to expose?

Are you a SAHM?

Three things you can work on immediately:

1-Poly
2-Exposure
3-Sleeping arrangements

Until you have the truth, there isn't much point in focusing on step #3, 5 and 9. KWIM?

Just an FYI. I do take ambien occasionally because I have always had trouble sleeping, BUT never have I not heard my children call out to me at night nor NOT awoken to my husband touching me even if he just rolled over and accidentally touched me.

Her husband said on the radio show that what she takes is not a RX, so must be over the counter, which confuses me more. I guess everyone reacts different.

If she is so knocked out though how does she know if he left their bedroom and went to their daughter's room?

I would be installing cameras throughout my house!!!! Horrible way to live.

"it is not prescribed.." Husband admits in the radio call that this is "rape." It has never stopped apparently.

And I agree with your points, Halfunit. She has no way of knowing if he has assaulted their children in the same way.

Yes he admitted to Dr. & Joyce that he would call it rape.

It's one thing if you allow yourself to be sexually abused, quite another to allow a child the same treatment. OMG WHAT IF HE FILMED YOUR CHILDREN BB???????

At this point I am so concerned with these children. I'm not understanding this whole thread.

I am BW and was so in denial but even I can't grasp BB's thought process.

Blackbird,

My FWH, during the time he was cheating (years ago), twice tried to have sex with me while I was sleeping. Both times, I woke up and pushed him off me. The second time, I made it clear to him that if he ever tried it again, I would file rape charges against him. He never tried it again.

At the time he tried to rape me in my sleep, he was drinking quite a lot. I also had a sexual aversion for quite a while because of his insistence that I perform acts that I was not comfortable with. He did finally stop demanding those acts, and I was able to overcome the sexual aversion, even to the point to where I could, at times, perform those acts. It did take quite a while, though.

However, he never tried to film or take pictures of us having sex.

He never tried to molest a child.

Quite frankly, knowing that my husband had molested a child would be a deal-breaker for me. It doesn't matter that the child your husband molested was only 2 years old and doesn't remember it. That does not alleviate your husband's guilt in any way, and I would never, ever allow him to be alone with any child of mine. If I ever found out such a thing, he would be GONE!

Make sure you get that lie detector test, and make sure you ask every question possible.

Whatever it is that you take at bedtime...STOP taking it! You cannot protect your children if you can't even protect yourself!

I'm wondering...is there any way your husband could be drugging you, as with a date-rape drug, commonly known as "roofies"?

I typed out a whole thing and lost it.

I had really considered if he was drugging me. I do not believe he has. I do believe he will try to encourage me to drink many nights (I usually would drink one glass of wine 1 or 2 times a week, and I strongly feel even half a drink) like he's always asking to make me drinks...and he will say he wants to make me something and it will be some sort of drink that tastes like pure alcohol. Those I just can't drink too much of, no way I drink it all when he does this. I have left the room and have found my drink more full than I left it.

I have insomnia. Like really drives me crazy insomnia. I was previously taking rx meds, even at that time but he was not even aware of it. I'm not sure why I didn't tell him, I don't think he had even started yet. I stopped long ago though.

I will sometimes mix OTC sleeping aids with a glass of wine to try to stay asleep longer (my insomnia makes me go to sleep just fine, but I will wake up after a couple of hours and stay awake)

I no longer let him know when I take anything. And at this point I'd rather just live with no sleep forever.

I have woken on occasion, like I know there's sudden movement and he has just pulled away, or my underwear aren't quite straight (and I am so stupid, but I prefer sleeping with nothing on and had been when I believed he had stopped!)Or I have woken up and could tell something had happened. I have memories that could have been dreams but I'm pretty sure are real now. I don't want to say, it's gross...but I can ask a couple of very specific questions regarding it that he will pass or fail.

As I'm working this out on here and in my head, and even talking with him....I am stepping back and seeing that I have been a very strong enabler...and there has been a lot of denial on my part.

But, I do believe his kids being his biological children....he has never done anything sexual or wrong to him, like in his mind that is just not ok and he's not interested in that anyway. He did tell me he hadn't touched anyone else after...that he didn't have any opportunity. He did not repeat with the girl bc he didn't want her to remember or be able to tell when older. He told me exactly what he did to her. And if he is being honest, he was either 14 or 15, I've done the math and from what he said she was likely 2, 3 at the oldest. He does not remember when it happened. He also told me that he was molested, many times before this happened and he was younger. He described it as experimentation, but in my opinion he was clearly molested by an older relative.

I guess I'm starting to see that in a way, I'm the next opportunity. I don't think he has any preference to kids or anything weird like that. It's just, if he has no opportunity, he does nothing....but if he does he will take advantage. So, I think it is entirely possible he touched no one inappropriately for 15 years, until my insomnia started and my sleeping habits changed.

It seems, then, he's had plenty of opportunity when he has made your drinks for you. When he's not doing it to you when you're knocked out cold, there's his opportunity. Right now, you're right, you're insomnia is better than leaving him opportunity. Maybe you're insomnia is based on instinct.

This is the likely explanation right here. He is putting some type of drug in your drinks. So in addition to not taking his drinks, you should also find a way to make sure he stays out of your children's rooms. How can you protect your children?

You do understand you have a legal responsibility to protect your children from harm? If they have been trifled with, it is not a legal defense to say "I don't think he would do that" when you know full well he is a child molester. You would be just as guilty as the molester for not protecting your children.

Alcohol mixed with other meds is a drug. He IS drugging you even if it is only the alcohol. He cannot be allowed to even offer a drink. Ever.

His fixation is on those who are helpless. That is children too young to report him and that is you in your sleep. It is the same fetish. Same behavior. Every incident with you in your sleep is a continuation of his fetish which includes helpless children. Allowing him opportunity to use you in your sleep is allowing him to practice violating the defenseless.

He cannot be allowed unlocked access to any sleeping person. If he stays (he should not) he should be in a separate portion of the home with no unlocked physical access to the sleeping area of others. You can't lock your children in. So you must lock him out.

Whether you tell him or not, he can figure that out on his own while you are asleep. Medicated or not, if you are unresponsive, there is opportunity.

You also cannot NOT sleep. At some point you will zonk out from pure exhaustion and you need to keep a clear head...lack of sleep will affect your thinking and you can not afford that.

Why won't you ask him to leave the house? Isn't there someone he could stay with for a period of time? How many times are you going to put up with this? He isn't going to stop.

"Alcohol remains the most commonly used date rape drug, being readily available as well as legal, and is said to be used in the majority of sexual assaults of this nature."

edited by Christopher P. Holstege ... [et. Criminal poisoning: clinical and forensic perspectives. Sudbury, Mass.: Jones and Bartlett Publishers. p. 232. ISBN 0763744638.

BB it is not logical that you have considered that he would go so far as to drug you but would stop with doing anything to the kids.

Do you have nanny cams in their rooms while he is still in the house?

Blackbirdfly,

Coming from my personal experience, most of the molestation/rapes that I know about are from biological relatives. Please consider this - simply because his children are his biological children will not prevent him from molesting them also. It just means your H has easier access to victims.

Do you have the polygraph scheduled?

Recent posts on this thread have been removed. Please help this poster with Marriage Builders advice or refrain from posting.

BlackBird,

I find it incredulous that in view of everyone else's observations and opinions regarding your H's decadent behavior and ongoing Spousal Rape and broadcasting you unknowingly being Sexually Molested on the internet, that you do not feel completely unsafe around this person.

Your denial of the extent of the facts is so blatantly obvious.

That denial and lack of consequences is enabling the continuation of these abusive behaviors.

I most definitely would set up Nanny Cams in your bedroom, and most importantly, in the children's bedrooms.

To not do so in the event anything further occurrs is akin to aiding and abetting in the perpetuation of this criminal abuse.

We all see this.

You need to also.

LTL

Well the local person that does polygraph is out....I'm hoping they call back within a day or two. There is a person who travels that could do it next week, but he only takes cash and check and I don't have 450 right this moment. I hope the other person will call back soon, if not will have to try borrowing the money.

Great job following up with the Poly! Keep on until you reach someone.

Do not be like me and wait over 4 years before doing this. Four years I will never get back. I did not have nearly the questions you do, but waiting almost destroyed me as a person. This will eat at you until you know the truth.

OK?

You can get cash with your credit card. I know Discover has a 'Cash Over' benefit which you can use at most grocery stores. Buy something you need or a pack of gum for fifty cents, you are allowed 'cash over' your purchase. I think the limit is $100 or $120 per day and there are no fees or special interest rates (treated as a regular purchase). I believe you should be able to get cash with Visa, MC, AMEX too but am not familiar with the fee structure of those.

I don't know if it matters. I'm going to do it, I just don't know if it will make it ok. I have had a really rough day....since Friday....I can't eat, I can't sleep....I can't think about anything else. Today was the first day I had to keep it together all day long, I made dinner, set everyone's on the table and I just couldn't sit there next to him.

I feel so physically sick...I feel like there's a brick sitting in my stomach. My sweet 10 year old was worried about me, when I set down the plates, I knew I was going to lose it, I just turned around and went and laid on the bed. She came in asking what was wrong...I said my head hurt, which is true...but it's so much more than that. I know they know something is up, but I don't want to tell them we are having problems.

At first, I thought I could do it....but I keep learning more and more. I am so shocked by all of the things he has done. How can I be married to this person? How didn't I know him?

And the reality is, if I divorced him, I will lose half of my time with the kids. What would I do without them?

You would use your husband's unstable background to get full custody of your children and perhaps give him supervised visitation like many others here have done.

X2

X3

Sorry you are having a hard day, blackbird. Have you spoken to your family yet? Exposure not only puts eyes on the WS, but a BS can get a support system...and that is very important for you and your children.

Divorce does not mean 50/50...and even joint custody isn't 50/50. Given WS's history and that you are primary caretaker, you have a lot going in your favor to ask for sole custody or to get them the vast majority of the time. Supervised visitation is also a possibility. Don't despair.

My ex lives in another state and only has visitation one weekend a month (not including the holiday, bday, summer break sharing). Even if he lived close by he does not have 50/50.

Please I am begging you. I do not post much on these threads, go look, but read all the time. Many stories have touched me deeply but none has gotten to me like yours has.

I actually was up late last night praying and thinking about you. I got up early to see if you had posted. I so understand how you want this to all go away like a bad dream. It isn't though.

Can you ask him to go stay somewhere while you process this? You cannot think clearly with him around. I am getting this horrible feeling every time I read on your thread.

I think I can say I am not alone on here when I tell you we are all very concerned. You are in a place with some wonderful people. Please listen!!

Have you spoken to his parents about the reasons for his estrangement? I seem to never told them about your marriage and the birth of your child because he was estranged. What is the reason behind that? Have you spoken to them about him?

That's why getting this polygraph is essential to any future custody battle

I think all you have to do is tell your lawyer what you know and they'll fight for you having 100% custody, and have it the way MelodyLane said. Now that you're waking up, you don't need to wait on a polygraph to get him out of there. Work on using that money to see a lawyer ASAP, and they can get you some emergency legal work done for your protection. Another option is a women's shelter, for you and your children. Don't leave them behind no matter what your husband says. Don't let him successfully beg for you to stay in the same house together. If you're wrong about it all, you can work on what it takes to live together again. If you're right, you saved yourself and children from any more harm.

I believe he gave that impression, but he is not and never has been estranged from his parents. He lived with them until we got married and far as I know just kind of stopped coming home one day. They have a strange relationship...don't really speak beyond a surface level, and their marriage is also screwed up...the husband quit his job and moved several states away a few years ago....they never officially separated or anything and who knows if they will ever divorce.

Strange family...

I definitely want the polygraph, I may choose to look at divorce but I, not ready to say its what I want. We had a much better conversation today, calm....he's nervous about the polygraph but still willing and that means a lot to me. And he knows the consequences of failing.

Have you been able to get some sleep? Are you a SAHM and can sleep while WH is at work?

Schedule the polygraph asap.

In the meantime, get a list of suggested questions from some of the vets here...

I am a sahm, but not type who usually has an opportunity to sleep in the day, not that I could if I wanted to. I slept until about 2 am today, so not terrible, close to 3 hours.

Actually I was home this morning, but so was he....we spent the morning talking after I got the kids to school. He is still here, but not sleeping in the same room or anything.

I have to say there has been constant new information of things he has done....I am wondering when he will run out....lying, stealing, drinking, etc just everything. I have no idea what his thought process is with all of this crap.

I have been thinking about questions...

As far as kids go,
Have you ever had physical sexual contact with a minor while married?
And maybe something about thinking about it?

I'm pretty sure he has had sexual interactions with minors online, so don't really need to ask that.

I want to ask if he had physical sexual contact with anyone else while married....otherwise just about anything you can think of he's done it. He really like computer stuff...has done everything one can imagine. He swears there has been no actual sexual contact, he has always stopped short.

I want to ask about drinking. Not sure what, he confessed he regularly would buy alcohol and drink in the car while driving, he sneaks drinks at home, he obviously has a lot more alcohol problems than I ever imagined.

He may have used drugs, may ask about that.

He has shoplifted on multiple occasions....he has stolen money from work....

I mean there are just so many things I can ask. I just need to figure out the few things I really need to know to consider repairing the marriage.

I think physical sex with other women, drinking, and sex with minors are the big things.

This is called "trickle truthing." It is like a steady stream of some of the truth, but not all of it. I have heard some people refer to it as a 'death of a thousand cuts.'

Just a thought - if you are desperate for sleep, have all the kids sleep in the same room with you, and you can try sleeping on the floor in front of the door. (Of course, lock the door.) That might give you more than a few hours because you will know if someone is trying to get into the room, and you will know your children are safe with you.

Good job working on those poly questions! I'm sure more people will chime in about wording or things you can add.

Don't waste too much time thinking up questions about drinking and drugs when your children are at risk, and you're "pretty sure" he's having sexual contact with minors online.

Uh, you know that's a felony, right? Child molestation, sexual assault, plus a whole host of related charges?

Who even cares about the women at this point? By your own estimation he's not just an adulterer, but an adulterous rapist pornographer who sexually assaults children online. And that's only what you KNOW about, never mind everything that you would suspect if you hadn't been living under the same roof with him and making excuses for him for so many years.

What do you mean, he has had sexual interactions with minors online?

Do you know that child pornography is a felonious crime?

I would make that one of the questions.

I don't understand why you are so dismissive of this reported behavior

He already admits to an excessive level of drinking and has crashed a vehicle. I don't think you need to waste a question on admitted and known alcohol use.

Honestly I think you are better off spending money to speak to a lawyer. Your WH is so messed up, it is hard to imagine any kind of recovery where you will be safe and also not have to babysit him for the rest of his life. You do understand that if you decide to stay in this marriage, you will literally have to babysit him for life..and even then he can (and likely will) still continue to do all these disgusting things because he knows you won't leave.

If you want the poly to put your mind to rest about sexual contact with other women and children during marriage, I can understand that but I really don't see how you can have a healthy relationship with this guy. Either you will have to be a parole officer 24/7 or you will have to accept this is your life/marriage, worry yourself sick (or deceive yourself) and suffer through it...people have mental breakdowns living a life like this. You do understand this, no? And then there is no one to protect your children and teach them right from wrong. Your WH is not a good father or man.

I hope you really think about what you are in for by staying in this marriage and the risks that you are putting your children in...and I am not talking about him possibly having sexual contact with your children. He can harm them in many other ways.

You have not said anything about exposure to your family so I assume you still have not exposed and are hiding even the infidelity portion. What are you waiting for? Exposure can bring great relief to a BS...no longer suffering in silence and getting needed support.

Did you book the poly with the cash guy for next week?

She should do the poly because the results may help her get custody

I agree

Well what I mean is that he has admitted that in the past he would visit social game type websites that really overall in my opinion attracted teens, and would have sexual chats, I don't believe he has sought out minors specifically and not child porn or anything.

Have you considered contacting Dr. H? When WH spoke to him, he was lied to and doesn't have the recent details. I have a hard time believing he would advocate you staying in the same house given the latest disclosures.

Well if hes talking about sex in a chat room with minors dont you thibk its possible that some pictures were posted and viewed?

I've thought about it, but I really just want the poly so I know how I feel after. I can imagine that I will feel all done with it if he fails, but I won't know until it happens, and if he passes, I think I might want to work it out, but maybe I won't?

If I want to work it out, idk, I know what dr Harley will likely say.

Well of the sites I know about, there is not that capability but certainly it it possible they could also exchange emails or something and share pictures. That he denies but if course that is his word.

I know for sure about the game thing bc we lived apart for a few months for job reasons, and we were playing together in a room and I received a very sexual message from him that was definitely not intended for me.

And as far as I know this stopped a few years ago....he had bad internet issues for awhile, has stopped, and has new issues I guess.

Question:

Are text messages something that a judge looks at for divorce/custody stuff....and could it be done without getting him in legal trouble if so?

That's why you need to focus on retaining a lawyer and talk with them first. They'll advise you what you can do legally. They may even tell you that a personal polygraph isn't admissible in any legal proceeding. One thing I do know that's legal is to get yourself and children away from him, then figure out what's really going on.

I know you feel awful.

I just need to add that two year olds can remember things that happened to them.

They are conscious and aware of language. They are people.

That the child never turned him in doesn't mean it didn't stick in their mind and affect them lifelong.

Do you have any of this still saved somewhere?

Start to save all and everything.

Blackbirdfly, It seems your biggest priority is protecting him...
In that case, I suggest you just follow the example of the ostrich and bury your head and pretend he is just a normal guy with normal behavior.

But to answer your questions, if a judge deems children at risk he/she WILL refer the matter to law enforcement or social services.
In my divorce case, the court ORDERED the county children services to investigate my family because the court had reason to be concerned.

But I can tell you right now....if he gets involved with exchanging naked pics with minors, etc its probably just a matter of time before the local cops or FBI bust down the door. Hopefully by then you changed your focus from protecting him to protecting your children

You better hope the cops get him before an angry father of a teenage girl he's been sexting with gets a hold of him....

Really?

Let's pretend for a moment you don't care about your rapist housemate. Let's pretend for a moment that you don't care about protecting your own children. Let's pretend for a moment that you don't care about any of the other children this guy has harmed.

Do you care about yourself? Even a little bit?

Helping him hide his FELONIES makes you an accessory to CRIMES. Not to mention any of a host of failure to protect charges you yourself may face.

Do you realize how much trouble YOU may be in if you don't take steps to protect the innocent, and fast? If you don't care enough to protect them for their own sakes, do you care enough to protect them for yours???

BB, how are you today? Have you been able to read what others have posted? What is happening?

My heart goes out to you because I honestly remember how horrendous I felt after finding out about the affair and can't imagine what you are going through.

Praying for strength for you. I think you know what you have to do, please do not be afraid, you are helping potential victims if you do not do the right thing!

We had a pretty intense discussion today. I am just so mad at how screwed up everything is. I have made some pretty solid decisions finally...which I'm sure most of you won't agree with...but it's the best I can do.

We still have not managed to get ahold of the examiner, will try tomorrow and if not the other guy will have to do, and will figure out payment.

I do not consider us together. I have decided not to ask him to leave the house because of the kids. I know it is hard to believe, but he really is a good and involved father. Not seeing him would be a huge hole in their lives. For that reason, divorce is not an option until our ten year old goes to college. I just do not want to split custody or deny them their dad. I do believe he is not interested in kids, and has not hurt a child during our marriage. I am confirming with the polygraph.

I don't believe he is interested in really changing. He admitted to spiking my drinks last night, I didn't even ask...he just told me, I asked when the last time was...he said last week. So yes, we are a mess. He will not be sleeping near me for sure.

I am verifying there has been no sex with others for my health, nothing with kids for my kids and all kids safety, and finding out about all of his drinking again for safety. That is really all I need to know from him.

He actually had started to get upset with me for asking him to recall too many details from a year and a half ago...god I was so angry...it's like he refuses to change who he is.

We had a bit of a blow up there, then he said he was going to find a counselor and go next week, he's going to contact dr Harley etc....I didn't even answer him. I am completely done with the marriage unless and until he can prove that real change has happened. I am ok with living in the same household for the kids. Maybe we will eventually go to a slow transition of not being together, I don't know. But as long as we can get along and I know he is keeping his hands off of me I can deal.

I know this is probably absolutely ridiculous to many, most, or all of you...and not sure if you all want more updates but I appreciate the help you have given me. I have certainly opened my eyes a lot more to what a trainwreck my marriage has been...

You have opened your eyes, and quickly closed them again...

OH, if he just freely admitted that he spiked your drinks without being asked....he;s probably reading your thread

So, as long as he admitted that he drugged you before he raped you and broadcast the sexual escapades on the internet, you are going to accept that as okay with you.

I apologize for being so brutally blunt, but don't you find that atrocious?

If a daughter or sister or best female friend of yours presented those same facts to you asking for an outsiders unbiased opinion, what do you think you would advise them to do?

LTL

Did you record the conversation with your H?

Have you followed up with Dr. Harley and told him all that has happened?

Blackbirdfly:

Over the years, I've counseled many women who have found themselves in your situation. While I have strongly recommended separation, they insist that they can't separate because of X, Y, and Z. When I help them resolve those issues, they come up with A, B, and C. The point is that they consider themselves trapped. But when I finally convince one of these women to separate for even one week, she will often report back that her mind is clearing up, and she sees the danger to herself, and more importantly, to her children.

A point I made just yesterday on the MB radio program was bad behavior in marriage should be exposed to family and friends, and if it's abuse of any kind, to the police and social services. Whether it's drug and alcohol addiction, infidelity, physical or emotional abuse, or, in your case, rape, exposure of the behavior is the quickest way to remedy the situation. Joyce and I would expose each other if one of us was doing something illegal or immoral with the knowledge that exposure brings the problem to the surface where something can be done about it.

Exposure of your husband's problems, and separation until there is solid evidence that his problems have become a thing of the past, and he can be safe to be with you and your children, is such an obvious next step for you, that it's impossible for the objective observer to recommend any other solution for you. It's the only way out. Your emotions are trapping you, not your husband. Once you are separated, and the truth is revealed publicly, you will find yourself freed.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

Please listen to Dr Harley, for your children's safety and your own.

He is a child abuser who has been doping his kids' mother for years. Purely for sexual pleasure. There is a very high risk to you all.

The fact that the abuse of the toddler is OK because he doesn't remember it... well that suggests he is also doping your kids too. What if your kids have funny dreams too? What if these drugs kill one of you?

You cannot help him. You are the last person who can.

Tell the authorities so he can access proper help and you can keep yourselves safe.

I think I am an impartial observer. On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 means the guy is completely safe and 10 means the guy is so dangerous he should be confined, I would give your husband a 10. What does that tell you?

God Bless you, Dr. Harley for posting to Blackbirdfly.

Blackbirdfly, please heed Dr. Harley's advice. Report your husband to the authorities and separate immediately. He is not safe to you or your children.

I have written an exposure letter. I have been unable to send it. I did not specify his exact sexual addictions/habits/crimes whatever you would call it.... but that they would cause him to be terminated and arrested.

I have looked up the legal implications of the molestation, and it is outside of the statute of limitations now in the state where it happened. I am very torn about exposing this information, we do not live physically near each other, but I keep up with her on fb and she is happy and doing well in life. If I knew she was of an age that she would have remembered, I would demand he confess and apologize to her. But she was very very young, and I do not want new knowledge to interrupt her life. I know how devastating this information has been for me, and I can only imagine how upsetting it would be to her. If she wanted to, she cannot get justice. If she does know, she herself has chosen not to hold him responsible in the eyes of the law.

I strongly feel I have been his only victim since. It is not ok, very not ok, but I do not want to press charges. I am not financially dependent on him, my parents live nearby and we could easily have no reliance on him, my kids are nearly to the age where my working full time in the day could be easily done with little effect on them. But it is obvious that steps like that would truly ruin his life. All I want it for him is to change 100% from right now. I want eventual recovery, not divorce and I realize there are a lot of steps that need to happen, including hearing a professional tell me he is ok. I also care very much for him as a person and I want him to rebuild his life, not destroy it.

He has never admitted to being a danger to anyone else, and has been abundantly clear that he has not touched anyone else. If a polygraph agrees, I feel it is reasonable to believe he is being honest. I would never under any circumstances keep him apart from his kids when I have no reason to believe he is dangerous to them. I understand one could say if he did it to me, he could to them, but that is not the case.

I realize at this point that whatever I say to him does not matter. He has to choose to get help, and I only hope he does. I feel that I can help support him if he starts getting help, and I am ok with being in the same house. It is difficult physically and emotionally, but I think I can.

I know anyone on the outside does not think of him as a person, but he really is, and I truly am holding his life in my hands. If I start a legal process he will lose his job and everything he has worked for. He will lose his family, he will go to prison. And prison won't help him, and it won't make me feel better. His other victim can't send him to prison. It also would very difficult for me to have it all publicly known, I would never want his kids, his parents to know what he has done.

I know you say I should value myself more, but all I can say is, as I am living and experiencing this, this is how I feel. Him going to prison hurts everyone. Him instead getting help has the potential to help everyone. IF he ever acts inappropriately again from this point, I will have to accept he has chosen that over changing his life and I will start divorce proceedings. I do love him and it breaks my heart to say that but I really do mean it.

I am trying very hard to be clear headed and not acting like a beaten dog that keeps coming back for more....I am trying to be logical and take steps that help everyone. I can say there is definitely no danger to me or the kids with sleeping arrangements as they are now.

Now we have the complicated mess of making sure that the help he gets doesn't ruin his life. I'm not sure where the legal requirements stand with mandated reporters and what has to be reported. I hope to meet a therapist that can speak with both of us but concentrate on his care but I'm not even sure where to start with finding the best therapist for the job.

I would encourage you to skip the polygraph and ask him to leave. The polygraph is a needless distraction at a time when you should be focusing on protecting yourself and your children.

And thank you Dr. Harley for writing. I am hearing what you are saying, but surely you realize as well as I do that reporting to the authorities would ruin his life, maybe all of ours. We live in a small community, my kids would have to leave school, friends, everyone to get a fresh start. We may not have committed the crime but we will surely pay for exposing it to the world. I want others to know he has done wrong, and the exposure letter is still extremely exposing....but legally I'm not there. I just can't agree with that.

You are not thinking clearly. The first step is to separate from him. Pack his bags and ask him to move out today. He should not have access to you or your children until he gets the help he needs. Tell him you won't even consider reconciliation until he receives professional help [on his own] and demonstrates complete recovery over a long period of time.

You should also report his rapes to the police and press charges. Expose his behavior at work and to your children, family and close friends. His workplace needs to know that he is exploiting female subordinates [affairs] and watching porn and masturbating at work.

BBF, make a decision today to stop being an enabler. Make a decision today to get away from him so you can start thinking clearly.

You are helping ruin your husbands life by covering up his crimes. By helping him hide his crimes, you are enabling him to be a bad man. That is not in his best interest, your best interest and most especially your children's best interest. If your husband were forced to face the consequences of his actions, he would be motivated to change.


Your husband's life is ruined now by his behavior. And if you don't stop him now, someone else WILL in the future.

What happened to exposing his infidelity to your family? Exposing his drinking to them too? You haven't even done that, blackbird.

An exposure letter that does not specify the act is obviously not an exposure letter. It is a sham.

Can you post the letter?

It is all in the exposure letter. I revealed drinking, theft, lying, sexual issues, everything. I just need to send it. At first I was planning on waiting for confirmation on the poly, but this morning reworded it in a way that I am getting it verified but it is as I know. It is just incredibly difficult to press send.

Blackbird, When you visit a therapist they are required by law to notify Children Services of any potential threat to childrens safety.
So even if you see one, and conceal the molestation you wont be making progress because the therapist wont have all the information necessary to professionally address the situation.

You remind me of the women i watch on Jerry Springer, that will live in dangerous situations and argue against the entire world that their sweet boyfriend is an angel....even after he fails a polygraph about molesting the kids!

The best thing that could happen at this point is for some parent to complain that your husband is sexting their daughter and get the cops involved...hopefully at that point Children Sservices will take your children into protective custody because its obvious you are unwilling to protect them.

As for exposure to the girl that was molested, same thing applies....the purpose of exposure to family would be to enable them to protect their kids when he is around.

But instead you want to conceal this, which will lead to it potentially continuing in a never ending cycle of family molestation and dirty family secrets.

There is a difference between being a victim, an unknowing enabler and a fully informed enabler.

Hit the button. You have avoided exposure and taking steps to help yourself (and even your WH) for over two years....TWO YEARS!! If you don't expose, you will be wasting your life talking about what you could have, should have done XX years ago. Things have only gotten WORSE since 2011. Hit the button!!

Are you going to separate from your H?

Yet in your last you said:
I don't believe you are serious about any of this, BBF, and are just doing this as a check the box exercise. Exposure also means telling the police he is raping you, informing his workplace of his affairs, telling your children. And most importantly, being specific. Glossing over his crimes is THE OPPOSITE OF EXPOSURE, it is to continue to hide.

She is not serious. This is a check the box exercise.

I don't know how many different ways I can say this. He is NOT a danger to my kids. He's not a danger to any kids. I believe this to be true, and if I doubted it, he would be gone. In what I consider to be a reasonable step considering the circumstances, I am asking a professional to confirm this is true with a polygraph. If he is lying, it will be found out. From what I am reading they are very accurate and I am certainly willing to hear opinions on wording of the questions to ask. The examiner I am hoping to use happens to be at a facility that specializes in sex offenders....giving court mandated polygraph tests, and does various psychological testing on sex offenders, so I assume they can also guide me in the best way to ask.

I am asking because he has proven to be a danger one time 20 years ago. That is no small thing, and I certainly want to be sure a professional agrees he is honest about this.

BBF, maybe he has not molested your children, but he has RAPED you on a regular basis. That is why you need to separate.

The polygraph is a needless distraction. You need to be focusing on getting separated NOW.

Pack his bags and ask him to move out today. He should not have access to you or your children until he gets the help he needs. Tell him you won't even consider reconciliation until he receives professional help [on his own] and demonstrates complete recovery over a long period of time.

You should also report his rapes to the police and press charges. Expose his behavior at work and to your children, family and close friends. His workplace needs to know that he is exploiting female subordinates [affairs] and watching porn and masturbating at work.

BBF, make a decision today to stop being an enabler. Make a decision today to get away from him so you can start thinking clearly.

Proven to be a danger one time 20 years ago?

Really? I sure hope he doesnt ask my daughters for sex talk over the internet because he wont like how I respond to it.

If he's having sex chat with kids on the internet then what makes you think he's safe with kids in the house?
And please dont tell me the anser is "Because i FEEL he is safe"

You do know that its not normal for a man to put drugs in a drink and rape his wife regularly, dont you?

He's probably broadcast the rapes on internet, too....like he did in the past

And maybe you can proceed with the polygraph to see if there is more, but you shouldn't allow that to delay separation and exposure. Focus FIRST on separating, exposure, and THEN focus on a polygraph. The polygraph can wait.

Obviously speaking to teens sexually over the internet is wrong. I am upset about this. This supposedly stopped by the time he was 25/26 and so was several years ago. I suppose he felt it was ok bc it was the internet and was just a passing chat and not meeting or anything. He claims he did not seek teens but they were more likely to be interested in sexual talk. He claims he is not sexually attracted to kids or teens.

This is not said as an excuse, but the facts as I know. I can probably verify with the poly by asking about attraction to minors or something. He is not a good person, I agree....he needs to change, I agree. I just don't agree that reporting to police will help anything. He will go to prison which everyone here wants....and we are the ones left to live the mess of life left.

Hi Blackbird-I'm kind of new here and mostly lurk, but I can't get your situation out of my mind.

You keep saying how he is so good with your kids, such a good dad, etc... Please consider that most child molesters ARE great with kids. Many times they are seen as fantastic teachers, coaches, etc... until they are exposed. Quite often their spouses are shocked and surprised when the truth comes out.

But even if he hasn't been inappropriate in any way with your kids, he has drugged and raped you. You are not safe. If you can't bring yourself to commit to a long term separation at this point, please think about what Dr. Harley said about other women he has treated...how a separation of even a week helps them clear their minds and see things from a different angel. Would you be willing to at least try separating for a week?

Lots of people here are very worried about you.

Take care.

Anyone can clearly see the statistics of the justice system and see how good they are at rehabilitation. No one can tell me he will get help bc I turned him in.

BlackBirdfly, based on your posts about how he has had sexual chats with teenagers, his drugging you, raping you, and his massive drinking problem, I believe the issue isn't anymore whether he has actually molested your own children, but rather if you are willing for the foreseeable future to live with someone you really will never know if he is molesting them or not. He is a sex addict and an alcoholic. In his mind there's a checklist: at first, he will try and get sex from you. If that doesn't work, he will try and get it from you against your will. If that doesn't work, he will try and get it from adult women outside the marriage. If that doesn't work, he will try and find it online - if not from adults, then from minors. And if all of that fails, guess who's left? Your own precious children.

I really can understand you not wanting to expose all of this - to get him arrested, turn your life into turmoil, endure the stigma in a small town, and so on and so forth. Change is painful, and this one is *really* painful. But you really have to ask yourself in a quiet and honest moment if you're doing your job as a mother if you let your children live with a man who is willing to do all of this to their mother, and who has shown he has very little, if any, self control over his urges. He is a dangerous man. He may be a good father 90% of the time - he may take them on trips and ask them about their day and buy them gifts for their birthdays, etc. - but when his demons kick in he has not shown to be in control at all. This is a danger everyone here feels you should not expose yourself or your kids to. You have a very real and basic responsibility as a mother to take care of your children. If you refuse to do so, a court may decide to take them from you. Please find the courage to make the changes you need to make so that this doesn't happen.

I am praying for you.

blackbird, you were asked what would you tell your daughter if her husband did these things and you said:


I'm not going to go round and round...either you want help or you don't. You showed up here in 2011 asking for help and nothing happened. You don't want to expose. You don't want to ask WH to move out. You seem to think your children can't be damaged by you staying. When your daughter is older and doesn't come to you for help, don't get upset...she learned that from you.

Good luck to you.

I dont think he would go to prison for raping you because what evidence is there?
If you call the police he will probably just say that you lied.

What has he done that makes you think he will go to prison?

It is not the justice system's job to rehabilitate your husband. That is his job. And forcing him to face the consequences of his crimes is the only way to motivate him to do so. Even so, you have no control over whether or not he decides to change. That is entirely up to him. You are not responsible for his choices.

Do you believe that enabling him and protecting him from the consequences of his crimes helps rehabilitate him in any way? Has that worked for you in the past?

Your protection has only hurt him and enabled him to be a bad man. That is not an act of love.

Don't hurt him any more. Consequences are the best medicine for your husband.

There is evidence in the form of a confession from him to Dr Harley on the radio show. The link to that has been posted here.

Maybe he won't get help, but it might stop more victims from being hurt.

You keep saying "I believe," "I feel," "he told me," etc. These are not facts and this is not the truth. Beliefs and feelings are not your friend right now because it's just too awful to face the truth.

You are defending against facing what's really going on here. You are fighting tooth and nail to believe what you want to believe and minimize the truth.

If he's drugging you, you don't know what he's doing with your kids. He could be drugging them too. Why wouldn't he? He's gotten away with so much for so long. His behavior is incredibly brazen at this point. Whatever he's admitting to, expect to find out ten times more with a poly.

I am so sorry because I can tell you are so ripped up about this that you're like a deer in the headlights, unable to do much of anything but defend your position.

He had to work up to molesting his cousin. That took time and thought. He LIKES messing with helpless people. It turns him on. If he can molest his own unconscious wife, molest a cousin then there's high probability that he has touched his own children while you were passed out on drugs.

So many people are insisting that you take action here precisely because your denial is so strong. If a chorus of people are crying out for you to see things in a new way, don't you think it's worth considering?

Please stop taking what he says as some version of the truth. He is the last person you should expect to get information from. And feelings are of no help to you now in terms of trying to figure out what's real. Your feelings are leading you astray.

Blackbirdfly,

Your H chose to drug you and rape you repeatedly during your marriage. When he made that choice, he also chose the consequences. Please do not take away his right to learn from his mistakes. Please do not hide his reprehensible actions either.

When there is a rapist walking among us and we don't know who he/she is, it puts everyone in the community at risk. What happens when you bring your grandchildren around him? Have you considered this?

Please do as Dr. Harley suggested to expose and separate immediately.

I was stupid in 2011. I was stupid nearly two years before that when I first discovered what he was doing. Four long years it has been with him getting caught, begging for forgiveness and claiming he has changed.

Yet I never followed through with what I needed to do. I never had him take a polygraph, I never made him see a therapist, I never even really made sure I was safe at night. I let him serve me drinks when I knew in my mind something was going on. And then so many things he has revealed to me that I had no idea about, I clearly do not know him.

I can tell you that due to sleeping arrangements even if he wanted to I really don't think it was physically possible to hurt the kids and that still remains the case. I don't want to say why specifically as it would give more identifying information, but just it isn't happening.

He doesn't have the computer access he used to. This has been the case for years now...and without access he stopped the internet behavior. It has been manageable. I think it is going on 7 or 8 years without an incident. I had never specifically prevented porn from happening, but now it is not possible at work, and also not possible at home or on his phone. If he really really tried, I'm sure there are workarounds but I would be alerted at least on home devices. I was not previously aware he had a porn addiction to the point of using it at work so had never checked into that, but now I have.

Now I am ready to take steps to actually protect myself. I need the poly for peace of mind, whether or not it matters in his treatment, or whatever. I just want it. I will be sending the exposure letter. I guess I could post it here, but you don't think I will send it anyway. You will tell me it's not good enough, you will tell me I suck, I don't know.

He actually just texted me that he now has an appt later in the month. I'm assuming with a therapist, that's all he said. So he has done that on his own. He has never even made an appt before so it is progress. If he doesn't go, it's not progress, but I hope he will. I may ask him to leave the house until then, I don't know yet. But I wouldn't mind finding out what his best treatment options are first. I know he could stay at my parents house, but will they be able to see how much he needs to have controlled, such as internet access, alcohol, etc. It will be a shock to them surely to know how bad it is.

Please consider a separation so that you can get a chance to clear your head. Dr Harley mentioned in his post that within a week, your mind would clear and you'd be able to see this situation with a lot more objectivity.

You met this guy when you were so young! You really don't know what a healthy relationship is. You need space from this to see what's really happening here without the feelings and denial clouding your judgement.

Please ask him to leave and do the poly!! You can figure out how to help him better when you're feeling more sane on your end.

What if he passes the polygraph? That he has never touched his kids, that he has no interest in kids, that he has never had sexual contact with anyone else in our marriage? Will you all still say he is doing these things?

I realize he may not be telling the truth about these things. That's why I want a polygraph. They are supposed to be accurate and admissible in court. I feel that if he passes that, it is the truth. If he doesn't pass, he is all of these things you say he is. I realize that.

But right now, I have no proof that he has ever hurt anyone else in our marriage, have no memories, doubts, questionable moments to think so. I know I may not be aware of everything he could have possibly done, and that's the reason for the polygraph.

It may be that he will be facing polygraphs at random forever. If he is always considered a risk, I will be on board with that. I have thought about setting up cameras, I can be on board with that.

But you all have condemned him to crimes that we do not know have happened. I am not trying to just protect him, I just want the truth. I want the poly it is all I want and think about right now.

I can trust the poly and take it for what it is, pass or fail.

God help you and his other victims.

You are the victim. He is a grown man. What he CHOSE to do was not your fault.

But if you enable him, you do bear that responsibility.

Blackbird, please stop the attitude.\
"You will tell me that i suck.."---NOBODY here told you that you "suck"

Posters here are urging you to take action and you keep making excuses why you cant.

Are you aware that the polygraph examiner may be a "mandated reporter" and required to notify the police of any crimes? How are you going to take a polygraph and protect him at the same time?

I already know your "exposure letter" is worthless because you earlier posted that you wont write anything that gets him in trouble

I hope you realize that once his avenue of drugging and raping you is cut off, the probability that he will turn to your children in frustration increases. The man is a sex offender. Your children are in danger.

IF he fails the part of the test about having sexual contact with minors during the polygraph, I am fine with it being reported. If he is being dishonest about this, I will report it myself. My goal is not to protect him at all costs. At this point, I do believe him. But, I want to know for sure.

I promise to come back and report what the results are. Good or bad, pass or fail. If he has really done anything like that, I don't care about his rehabilitation.i don't care about helping him. I think if that is true he might be beyond help.

Precisely.

The concern should be with the victims. Once an individual is found to be a sex offender, they can never be in unsupervised contact with children. Period.

I do not know that, I am not a professional in the field. However, I know there are alcoholics that go on to never drink again, drug addicts that never use again, and obese people that get thin and never overeat again. I do believe he can change his behavior and that does not mean by changing he has to abuse children.

But even if he is telling the truth about all of those things, there is no doubt that he drugged and raped you. You aren't safe.

It doesn't matter if he takes a polygraph test, that is just more conflict avoidance. What matters is separating from him NOW so you will be safe and exposing his behavior to everyone.

Please stop talking about the polygraph. It has nothing to do with Dr. Harley told you to do. Are you going to follow his advice and separate and expose his behavior?

Did you listen to this again? Has he changed at all since this call?

Will you separate, like Dr. Harley recommends?

And even if he doesn't have unsupervised contact with kids, if he has no problem with drugging and raping the mother of his children, I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same to other adult women he comes into contact with at bars.

Nobody is saying you suck, Black Bird. You're the victim of some horrible crimes. Sometimes it's really, really hard for victims to get out of situations like this. We're trying to help you...truly.

The worst of it, is he has told her about this terrible violation - repeated, drugged rapes - so CASUALLY.
It is because he has control of her so much he expects her to just accept it, swallow it whole and not give him any consequences.

Any normal person would expect their wife to tell the police, help the other sex victim, and take away the children. Yet he acts as though this hasn't even crossed his mind. As though she has no self-will.

Just like when she is drugged.

I've never came across anyone this controlling and chilling on these boards.

I would be tell you to value your kids more.
If there was even a possibility that Markos was harming my kids, he would be out of the house. And it would be up to him to prove his innocence.

But you seem more concerned with protecting your rapist than you are with protecting your children. If you, their mother, will not protect them ... who will?

Even if he is innocent of physically harming them, you are allowing harm to come to them by allowing the man who raped you to stay in YOUR life. Your children need their mother in good mental health. Dr. Harley doesn't take separation lightly, and if he is telling you to separate, you NEED TO.

If you won't do it for yourself, do it for your kids.

This is more conflict avoidance. Saying you are "taking steps to protect myself" and then taking NO steps negates your words. It is just empty talk.

* A polygraph will not protect you.
* Him saying he is going to a therapist will not protect you
* sending a fake exposure letter that doesn't list his crimes will not protect you

An "exposure" letter that does not even list specifics is not an "exposure" letter.

You don't want to post it here because you know we will just point out that it is a sham.

Please separate from him, BBF. Separate, separate, separate.

That is because she has chosen to surrender her reality to her husband. He tells her what is real and she believes it.

That's true, it is her choice.

You have to volunteer for gaslighting.

If you want to email me your exposure letter, I will tell you the good and bad about it...not that you suck. You can click the Notify button of this post to ask the mods for my email.

BBF-Are there any resources in your area for women in abusive situations? It's very common for people in situations like yours to have trouble leaving...many times it takes years for women in abusive relationships to leave and sometimes it takes multiple tries because they leave and return. We have a great facility in my county that includes a shelter, recovery programs, support groups and low cost therapists with a lot of experience in situations like yours. Anything like that in your area? Talking to women in similar situations might help you see your in a different light.

BBF,

I hope you realize that your gut feelings have been steering you wrong, like about the drug and rape at night. This same gut feeling is what you're relying on to decide that he doesn't hurt your children. You are in no way making his life unbearable by separating from him. You may find out things from your children once they feel safely away from him.

The young lady who was molested when she was 2, probably has bits and pieces of memories that don't make sense. She certainly has internal emotional issues that she doesn't understand why or how they came to be. There are things she struggles with because she can't make sense of her life. Information has been kept from her that is preventing her from healing and being whole. She blames herself for everything because she doesn't know any better.

Start there. Tell her. She's entitled to know the full truth of her life, and why she has the struggles that she does. Outside she looks good, but inside she's still broken. You can help her. It will be hard for her at first, but she will finally begin to heal.

Separate from your WH like Dr. H said to do. Then get the poly, and decide whether you want to R at that point.

Ok, first off I want to tell you, go ahead and do the polygraph. In fact WHEN IS IT SCHEDULED??? Do it not for clarity but for proof. You BBF, have plenty of information needed to begin to step up as a mom and protect your children and yourself. Also, starting now RECORD EVERY CONVERSATION!! You're going to need it.

Do you know the what percentage of people are who can self cure themselves of being a child molester?? 0%!! None

Now that the harsh stuff is out of the way, lets get real.

Your husband is famous for giving you 1/2 truths! I have great experience with 1/2 truths. Essentially what they are, are small bites of what actually happened in order to get you to stop asking. You WILL never get it all because the secrets that man has, he will take to his grave. Everything he says to you is a half truth. Now lets look at some of the things he has said:

1. OW only expressed a sexual fantasy.

2. I drink occasionally

3. I molested and raped you in your sleep only for a short time and videoed it.

4. I MOLESTED 1 GIRL WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER

All of these lies have been elaborated and he has given you a little more and a little more.

Bottom line, this man is a pedophile. I know it is a hard cold truth to let sink in but it is your reality. Regardless of what kind of a father you think he is to your children, that is a fact. If he was able to bring himself to molest a girl as a teenager, this is not a problem he can cure on his own. Normal people cannot bring themselves to do this. Every lie he tells is an attempt to bury this HUGE lie deeper and deeper. The fact that he can still bring himself to drug and rape you in your sleep is a huge red flag that he is an active child molester.

I realize that you can't get your head past the fact that they are his bio children but do you know that fact alone, makes it easier!!! Then need to groom is easier, the trust is already there, and noone would ever think.

Please do not downplay what he has done as "not as bad as you think." If he can do it to you, he can do it to your children. Saying you are abused is one thing, as not everyone abused is an abuser, but to say you've been able to cross that line, there is no doubt left. Think about it!! If he was able to tell you about this girl from years and years ago take it as a half truth and count on it being much much worse, just as everything else you've slowly discovered. Your children deserve more from you than this!

Start educating yourself about this. It will be eye opening. And in the meantime, DO NOT LEAVE YOU CHILDREN ALONE WITH THIS MAN!! EVER

The polygraph examiner insisted that I should only ask one question, and that one question can't be give him a questionnaire and then ask if it was truthful.

The other examiner said he typically did 3 and would up to 6. If one question can give the most accurate answer, I think that's what I want to do. The other guy travels and meets in hotels and just doesn't seem as legit? I don't know. This guy is retired police officer with lots of experience.

My plan for my question is:

Have you ever had physical sexual contact with any other person during our marriage?

The only problem is this does not account for minor vs adult...so I have to assume the worst until he can have another test on a different day if he were to fail. I will go over everything with him in person in case he can allow a couple more questions but this is the most important one.

He also has his first therapy appt next week I found out. I plan to ask him to move out starting tomorrow until we have answers. I plan on exposure letter happening tonight, and talking with the kids together tomorrow. I just don't want him to move out until we have sat them down together. He does not know I am asking him to move out yet, I will tell him tomorrow.

My hope is that this would be a temporary separation and once we get on the way with his individual therapy we could eventually work on building a marriage again. I do not know if that will be reality but I do understand the need for some separation and I don't think it's a terrible idea. I know he will not want to.

Oh and an answer can be inconclusive and that's the answer, like it's just not possible to know. I'm not sure what I could possibly think in that case and I just hope and pray that third option does not happen.

REVAMP question to read:

Have you ever touched any of our children for sexual reasons?

You need to wake up and realize what the real issue is here. If he can pass that question, than, and only than, is your marriage salvageable!!

I have never heard of a one question poly.

blackbird, you may want to read home's story. It may be an eye opener for you.

I agree. Standard polys are 3 questions.

Either way you need to get this scheduled ASAP, then brace yourself. I see great resemblances in our stories BBF and I fear for you.

**Also (and even if you don't see the need) begin recording all of these long talks you're having with wh. Even if you never need them, it wouldn't hurt.

Please take a moment to read up on CSA, Childhood Sexual Abuse.

It most often, in the VAST MAJORITY of incidents, occurs from a close family member, such as a parent.

Being a parent does not negate the Child Abuse tendencies.

Before you attempt to do your, currently described half azzed exposure letter, it would serve your best interests to post it here to be tweaked for the Proper information being disseminated to the contact lists.

As far ad the poly, the questions you should put down on a list should also be discussed here for getting at the true facts.

You are afraid that exposing the truth will harm him, but the reality is that his actions are what have harmed his reputation and other innocent victims.

By concealing these truths, you are a co-conspirator to allowing this to go on unpunished. He deserves consequences for his crimes.

And YES, the young cousin of his deserves to know the truth about her life.

Will you inform her of what you discovered?

LTL

You are right, there are a lot of half truths happening. Maybe some are the whole truth but I can't possibly know.

The polygraph is happening on Tuesday. I was just looking up some stuff about it, apparently the single question is the most accurate. And you are right about the question too. The question needs to be have you ever touched any child for sexual reasons since we have been married?
The reason I am asking like that is because we married very young. He was only 20 when we married, 19 when we met so it is perfectly possible that if he potentially cheated before marriage it could be a 17 year old or something. I just want to make it very clear what I mean and I can't question it.

If he allows more questions, I would very much like to ask about other women and his drinking as well...but they can wait for a future test.

Ok you all will not like this, but I told him I was going to expose and then he asked to see it and I showed him. Then he said he is going to rewrite it from his perspective bc his parents might not believe me. Which, I do know his mother doesn't like me, but I don't know. Anyway, I said he can have a chance to rewrite it but it must be done today and I have to approve it and I have to physically watch him send it.

The polygraph administrator who suggested you compose a Full list of questions for him to answer prior to taking the test allows for more items to be confronted.

Please read the thread in the top forum section about polygraph testing and the questions to ask.

LTL

Here it is for you.

Polygraph Testing, (found it in the Operation Investigate sub-forum)

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2473858#Post2473858

LTL

This is not something that should not be done together. I would tell the kids by yourself TODAY. Tell them by yourself today and ask him to move out tonight. He can go stay in a hotel until he finds another place.

The first thing you need to do is change the locks so he doesn't come in the house.


If you mean a few years, I would agree with your characterization of "temporary" because it will take at least that long for him to make and demonstrate a radical change in his behavior. He will have to prove to you over time that he is a safe person and that comes with time, if ever.

What is the EXACT PURPOSE of the polygraph? I am completely baffled why you want one.

I think the polygraph is a complete waste of time and a conflict avoidance tactic. You already know he had several affairs. Of course they were sexual affairs. He has no other reason to pursue any person. I don't see why it matters a bit.

Why do you want him to take a polygraph?

Reword it again...

have you ever touched OUR child for sexual reasons since we have been married?

Think about the question for a moment. If he fails it.... you will need to not only separate but begin to protect your children. Right now....they are your concern. How old are your children BBF?

If you are allowed more than 1 question feel free to expand to the children of the world. Right now you need to ensure YOUR children are safe from abuse. That is your job as their mom.

He does not get to expose it. That is your job entirely. Just post the letter here and we will give you feedback. You can proceed with the exposure today.

Of course we don't like that you told him because it was another foolish and needless move.

I did read the thread, and I did initially make a long list and we have been through it. I've learned a lot since last Friday. A lot of it has been confessed, so no need to ask. I really only have 3 questions left and I have asked him so he has a good long time to work up the nerve to tell me if he is going to. He knows my main question and my other potential questions (the others about other women having physical contact, since I already know he's done everything else possible with them, and about further drinking being hidden, since I think I know everything but I am concerned about how safe he is if he is drinking more than he says)

Really everything else I wanted to know, he has told me over the last week.

I am urging a polygraph because I fear that is what it will take for her to understand the severity of her husbands problem. Something hard, cold, and black and white. Right now she is blinded by the gas lighting and cannot see what we can see in him.

She needs to separate NOW regardless of any polygraph. Her husband has been drugging her and raping her at night. Dr Harley told her this morning to separate.

The polygraph can come later. Dr Harley told her to separate and expose his behavior.

BBF, please read Dr Harley's post again. Separate NOW and expose the affair. Your husband should not be involved in any of the exposures. That is YOUR JOB.

The kids need to be told ALONE so they feel safe.

I do agree that if your poly is one one question, odd though that may be, that it should deal with the child sexual issues. If they will ask 3 questions, I would go with:

1. Have you every interacted with a minor sexually since our marriage?
2. Have you ever interacted with
one of our children sexually?
3. Have you exploited your wife sexually in ways she does not yet know about?

Suggestions are welcome, however to me these areas are the most important, and questions about OW's and substance abuse should be put off, if asked at all. I use the word "interacted" instead of "touched", because that would not only cover touching, but sexual messages and porn use with children.

Your first priority should still be the separation and exposure.

Why would you give your rapist a say in your exposure letter? Of course he's going to rewrite it to favor himself, rather than reveal the truth. He should have no say in the separation that you need to implement effective immediately, no say in the exposure letter, no say in you calling the police, and no say in you telling the truth to his past victim.

HE HAS TOLD YOU HALF TRUTHS. You will be told these all the way up until you go to the polygraph....if he goes to the polygraph.

Please listen to us..we have been there.

My suggestion:

Schedule the polygraph

Do not back down from the polygraph...regardless of how much he tells you...and he will tell you a lot more.

Go to the polygraph and ask the question about the kids.

Do not take any further steps until this is done. If he passes and you find out he has not sexually abused the kids then carry on with the steps for marital or personal recovery.

With everything I've read in your thread I have red flags flying up all over the place!

Oh yes and take whatever precautions necessary to protect your children until you KNOW they are safe.

Folks, she needs to focus ENTIRELY on separating from him TODAY and exposing the affair. She can schedule the polygraph test AFTER she has done that.

Please help her get separated TODAY and expose the affair TODAY.

He may have told you everything you WANT to hear last week, there's plenty he still is hiding that you NEED to hear.

I don't think it is necessary for him to move out tonight. Even if he had been doing anything, he is on his best behavior now. And again to be clear, I don't think he is.
I can do it in a more gentle way with my kids and that's what I am going to do.

I don't believe any affair was actual physical sex, I know you don't believe that...but really I do. I plan on asking though if I can.

The exact purpose of the polygraph is for peace of mind. If he passes that he hasn't touched ANY child during our marriage than that is something to work with. I believe he will pass, but I need confirmation just in case. If he were to fail there really isn't anything to say to him. And I don't need it to be my kids, bc if he touched any kid the most likely answer is it is ours and that's what I will believe.

I am not planning on separation being years unless the therapist thinks it's necessary or he fails the test, then it's permanent. I hope it is very short term.

I agree, he needs to move out ASAP!!

homefor5, do you realize he has been drugging her and sexually assaulting her in her sleep? He probably is molesting the children, but getting him out of the house NOW is the FIRST PRIORITY.

Pull your head out of the sand. One week apart from him is not too much to ask in light of the circumstances. Have him move out, TODAY, and get the rest sorted out in the next week.

bbf, have him move out NOW. Of course he is not safe. Pack his bags, tell your children the truth and have him move out.

You're trying to have this be easier on YOU, not the kids. If you cared about your kids, you'd put their safety above their comfort.

It will take years for him to demonstrate a radical change in his behavior. This will not happen overnight.

In the meantime, have you packed his bags?

Have you told your children ALONE the truth?

Have you written your exposure letter?

She is in a shocking state of denial.

Ok well lets look at this another angle. When that polygraph is scheduled you are going to get a trickle truth like none other. For your own personal sanity it is best to remove yourself from it until the polygraph is done.

I can see that you are in serious denial about the severity of what your husband has done to you. That is due to the fact that you are too close to the situation. Do you not beleive that married or not he does not have the right to touch you without consent??? Do you understand that even without proof he has touched children, that he has abused YOU?? He has violated you?? If you don't take it seriously, neither will he. That is not love BBF, that is abuse. You have been the tool for his abuse. That is not a normal marriage or a healthy marriage or a person who needs to see a therapist. He is a sick individual. A few sessions of therapy are not going to "fix" this. By allowing this, you are essentially enabling his sickness and abuse.

That is NOT true.

BBQ, what steps are you taking to move this along?

I do not believe he has touched my kids. I realize I could be denying it, so I am asking for proof that he hasn't. No matter what he says he is taking the polygraph. If the polygraph comes up as the truth I will believe it. I believe what the examiner says more than any of you say. You have made me think about a lot of things and I am separating for a short time for clarity, I am having him take a polygraph, he is going to a therapist. I am trying to do my best. I cannot keep hearing that I am doing it wrong wrong wrong bc I haven't thrown him out and locked the doors. I swear if I felt they were being abused I'd shoot him myself and turn myself in. If he has touched a child, any child during our marriage I don't want anything to do with him. That is the truth. I will give myself some space by him moving out for a bit tomorrow. That is all dr Harley said. One week! Not years.

I reemphasize what Dr. Harley and MelodyLane says: get him out NOW and then you have time to sort out the other stuff later from a guaranteed safe place. I declare, you're in the middle of a blazing fire and wanting a polygraph to prove how ferocious and close to burning you it is.

There is nothing of value that's lost if you get him out now.

What do you mean?
The polygraph is scheduled.
The therapist is scheduled.
The exposure letter is being sent tonight.
I'm doing what I can. You will have to wait until Tuesday to hear he results as that is the earliest he could do it.

I hope to be proven wrong.

blackbird, why can't he leave tonight? He can go to a motel and you can get a decent night's sleep so you have a clear head to talk to your children. This would be a tiny gesture that he could do for you after all he has done. Please have him leave tonight and get some rest.

He can prove he is innocent while staying at a hotel!

I find it appalling that there is chance he may be harming your children, and yet you see no need to protect them tonight.

Yet you have done NOTHING Dr Harley told you to do. He told you to separate. He told you expose the affair. You have had ALL DAY to do these things.

Has he moved out?

Have you told your children? {ALONE}

Have you rewritten your exposure letter to include the fACTS and have you sent it?

You absolutely SHOULD NOT include your husband on any exposure. He gets NO INPUT and he certainly should not be with you when you expose to your children. If your children need to tell you something, they will not feel free to do that with him there.

BBF, your husband has admitted to drugging you, raping you and showing pornographic images of you on the internet. He has also admitted to molesting a toddler. A man who will do these things is a danger to all, including his own children, even IF he has not yet touched them.

It concerns me that you don't understand the severity of your husband's crimes against you and the danger that he poses to women and children everywhere.

It concerns me that you are involving your husband in all of your plans and decisions, right down to having him edit the exposure letter.

It is important that you separate from your husband IMMEDIATELY for your own personal safety. Please do NOT wait until Tuesday.

If your husband becomes convinced that he can't deter you from discovering and exposing his crimes, your very life could be in danger. What is to prevent him from drugging you to the point that you won't even wake up?

Please separate now for your own physical safety and that of your children. Separation will not in any way prevent you from getting a polygraph, and it will not prevent your husband from getting counseling. It WILL give you the space you need to think clearly about how to proceed.

And please do NOT send your husband to your parents' house or the home of any friends/family members. He is better off in a hotel room where none of your loved ones are placed at risk.

Oh no. It takes much, much longer than one week for a person to make radical changes in their lifestyles. It takes at least a YEAR. And that is only *IF*, I mean *IF*, he has PROVEN he has made radical, permanent changes. Leaving for a week is silly. That is not what Dr Harley means by a separation. Your husband can't possibly make radical changes in his life in one week. How ridiculous.

It is true that you are more concerned about enabling a sexual predator than you are in protecting your children.

If it turns out that your husband has been molesting your children, you will be held criminally liable, I hope you know. All of these excuses and rationalizations like "I don't believe he would do that!" will not fly in a court of law. If he is molesting your daughter, you may find yourself in jail as an accessory to the crime for failing to protect her.

There is a point where one crosses the line from gullibility into criminal negligence. I would say you crossed that line long ago, my friend.

Agreed!!

I clicked notify on my post. Can a mod please delete my thread, I'm sorry. It was a mistake to write. I'm sorry.

Before you go, why do you feel it was a mistake to write? All we're saying is that your circumstances call for a separation now and figuring out the truth during the separation. Dr. Harley said you would probably start thinking more clearly after one week and separation shouldn't end until your husband proves he's safe, in everything. Will you at least give you and your children that chance? Right now, you don't owe your husband the benefit of a doubt. Don't you think it's okay for right now to err on the side of precaution, of safety? Just in case?

You were Right to write. It was very courageous of you. I hope you will now have the courage to act on the advice Dr. Harley has given you.

I am a long time lurker and believer in the Marriage Builders philosophy but did not plan to post here until today.

Blackbird, I AM a woman who was molested by my father at age 2. I remembered it. Even if the child doesn�t remember the damage is still there. The suffering is hell. The consequences are lifelong.

My father was much like your description of your husband. The stories differ some. My father hurt many people; ruined many lives. And my mother did nothing. She had many excuses why she stayed. She thought he deserved another chance because he too had been hurt. She stayed until he left her after 50 years of marriage for another woman.

I promise you that your children know more than you think. I cannot know if your children have been molested, but I guarantee they are hurting.

My father was a psychopath. Your husband�s behavior seems much the same.

No one gets out unscathed.

I implore you to make your husband leave NOW. If he will not go willingly call the authorities NOW.

Save your children from the suffering I experienced. After a time apart you will begin to understand what everyone is saying.

As a mom whose children have been molested, I have some inkling of the damage this does. One more time is one time too many.

Our neighbors across the street just lost their kid a few weeks ago. The stepdad physically abused the boy, and the mother failed to protect him. Now neither one has him.

How do you want your story to end?

Please understand BlackBird that we are trying to help. The sad truth here is that far too many of us have been touched by what you're dealing with; far too many of us wish we had someone to point out the red flags before it was too late; far too many of us are dealing with the heartache you feel right now. We are not trying to bash you for being a terrible mother. I know the strength it takes Blackbird!!

-You can't imagine where he would have done it.

-You can't imagine how he could have done it.

-You can't imagine why your children would have never said anything.

-You can't imagine why you wouldn't have noticed.

-You can't look him in the face and honestly imagine how he could have even crossed that line.

I understand, trust me, I do. Your head is spinning a thousand different directions thinking what if...

That is where you need to start. If there is even a tiny minute possibility in your mind (and I can read that there is) you owe it to your children to take it seriously. So many pedophiles get away with it because adults don't believe. Yes you will have your proof on Tuesday but until then, for the sake of your children, take it seriously. If he passes the test with the question about them, then you can take a deep breath. Until then please, I urge you, take this seriously. He needs to leave now.

You made no mistake posting here. We are here to see that you have a happy healthy recovery but there are just too many red flags to ignore. Please don't ignore them any longer.

"But I thought he was only hurting/hitting/raping me. He never told me he was abusing the kids too. "

"I thought he only abused other people's children"

"He told me he was done abusing children. I thought therapy would work"

"I thought he was only abusing children online. Not y'know ... real sex."

I am a court reporter. I take down these (highly incredulous) words very often. You can imagine how they are received by a shocked courtroom.

Most abusers live in the homes of the children they abuse. Their children. You won't see these stories in the press, because the protected identities of children mean the identities of the parents are also protected. But the most common situation is identical to yours.

In cases where the mother, like yourself, knew they were exposing the children to experienced sexual predators, the above quotes are the types of things they say. They are... lost.

One grown up victim said she never told her mother because she had no confidence in her. She said her mother knew he was an abuser. She said she had seen her mother being raped often. Sound familiar?


It's exactly true.

They are in danger and you refuse to protect them because you don't want to separate from a habitual and dangerous sex offender.

You've put your feelings first.

BBF - I am not just speaking to you from the abstract. I have a brother in law who spent eight and a half years in prison for molesting a two year old, yet he never drugged and raped his wife. Your husband is a serious threat to your children.

He admitted to fondling a toddler and now lives with children. He RAPED you while you were sleep and said he did it on a national radio show. Then to add insult to injury he put it on the internet and your best defense is that he wouldn't do that to his children?! Logically, why wouldn't he? He is escalting and your helping him do it. I understand your world is upside down right now but you need to get that predator out of your house and the best way to do is to alert the authorities.

By reporting him you aren't putting him in jail, his actions did that. You cant control him but you can protect yourself and your children, your treading on thin ice here and could go down with him. Put your children first! If he won't leave you leave, go to a friends house, family, tell them whats going on. You need support!

Can any of the vets somehow contact BlackBird via email or phone and coach her via that avenue? I think it's obvious the tough love she's received here isn't working.

She hasn't received any tough love.
She asked for advice and Dr. Harley himself responded and gave her advice.
This is an anonymous board, nobody can call her and as Dr. Harley explained, some people just continually make excuses for why they can't take action.

Tough love is exactly what's needed when innocent CHILDREN are at risk, it's not just her life that's destroyed it's kids safety at play here and I won't ever apologise for being harsh on a mother who refuses to protect her children choosing a drunk, abusive rapist over their welfare. There is no room for mollycodling an enabler in this situation, that's why I begged the moderators to get Dr Harley involved in this thread. This situation is dangerous.

I disagree 1000%. Telling her what she wants to hear only serves to enable her. Do we tell her what she wants to hear so she will stay around? What would be the point of that? That is not my idea of support.

She's been told over and over what she needs to do. She hasn't done it - she's about to quit this site and run. She even asked for this thread to be deleted. Instead of banging heads against rocks I'm proposing offering her support via a more direct avenue than an anonymous message board. That is all. Of course she needs tough love - she needs a hammer over the head and someone to shake her up - but quite obviously the way we're doing it isn't helping.

Melody I was not referring to the advice she's getting - I think it has been spot on. I'm referring to the way it's being given.

Dr Harley's advice was clear, gentle, kind and not put in a harsh manner, that also made NO DIFFERENCE.

She ran in 2011 when she didn't hear what she wanted to hear and she is back here again 3 years later in the same situation does not matter what people say or how much of a vet or expert they are in the field they are giving advice in she's blind to anyone else's opinion a part from her own delusional denial.

Running won't help her kids yet off she goes again, well see her in a few years when she's still being abused and in denial about it.

The moderation staff does not give out contact information to posters. The forum is not structured this way. If you have any issue with this, contact the administrator by email, JustUss2@aol.com.

That is the benefit of a diverse population. We have no idea what will or won't get through. No one knows for sure. So I wouldn't agree that the way is wrong. We can't all assume our own way is the right way or that we know the right way.

Can one of the mods please contact BlackBirdFly to ensure her safety?

I have read your thread, BB.
I am praying for your kids.

Please follow the steps for Plan B.

You should not have left. That was your mistake several years ago and you are repeating it.

Everyone was trying to help you. You don't have to like their advice but in all the time I have been reading on here seldom are the vets wrong.

Sadly you walked away from the best site online for help. You know what, I did too, and then came back because I realized this was the place to get the help I needed to restore my marriage.

More importantly I became a stronger better me. You need the same thing.

Continued Prayers for you BB and your sweet innocent children. May God protect you all.

I see my thread is still here...

Perhaps advice is sound here, but delivery could be improved upon. Dr. Harley's advice was much appreciated, and yet not harsh or cruel....I actually copied it and read it a lot, I have done nothing but analyze every thought, memory, everything...trying to be as cemented in reality as I can be. I am truly trying my best to do the right thing. If I was only concerned with myself, I wouldn't have come here. I would have continued to ignore all the things that had been going on.

I know many of you speak out of concern, but on the other hand I have never been good with conflict and harshness, perhaps a character flaw, but it's how I am. Anyhow I see some were concerned so I just wanted to say we are ok. I am not the same person I was last time.

I'm glad you're still with us.

Can you tell us what your plan is?

What is the plan, BBF? Has your husband moved out?

Well I'm still not 100% sure what my plan is. So far the plan is still polygraph and therapist for him. These two things will give me better information for what should happen from now on I think. They both happen this week now.

What about the plan Dr Harley gave you?

here

Are you separated? Have you exposed his behavior?

Well, I know no one believed me, but I did what I said I would do. He moved out on Friday. The letter was sent...instead of fully exposing I made it clear that I would like him to fully expose, and yesterday he did. So, the people close enough to need to know, know. It has been very difficult emotionally for both of us, difficult for everyone really. It's some pretty graphic, horrible stuff to throw out there and be judged over.

I don't want to separate long term....but sleeping arrangements will definitely be a long term separation. I realize that's the way it has to be.

I realize that I have been in an abusive relationship for some time. And I'm sure most people would like me to separate and divorce. But, we love each other, and we want to get proper help in the hope that some day, it will be a real marriage.

I am very happy to finally not be alone though. To have support is wonderful, it am so glad to not be carrying such heavy secrets anymore.

Did you follow Dr Harley's instructions and expose his behavior and separate from him?

Did you also expose to your children?

That is fine that he sent a letter, but it is important that YOU expose the truth to friends and family. Exposure is to be done by the betrayed spouse, not the wayward spouse. Not that he couldn't do it, as long as the truth is imparted BY YOU.

WE had another wayward spouse who "exposed" himself to family and of course he glossed over and minimized his actions as most waywards do. Dr Harley instructed his wife to do the exposures:

The kids we were much more vague towards, IF the polygraph shows evidence there could possibly have been an offense towards them (which I don't expect) then definitely a much more detailed conversation will happen. But they know he has done wrong things and he needs to move out until he goes to see somebody.

I can be safe if he is locked out. And my kids are safe. We had a very enlightening conversation...I always thought me being helpless was what did it for him, but it's not. He has a completely different fetish (I guess you'd call it) and it makes me feel even more confident the kids are safe, any child is safe...but of course the polygraph and therapist will help determine what the best plan is.

Oh trust me it is exposed. He told my mother to her face with me sitting in the room, and wrote and sent the email to his family with my supervision. I was very specific that there was to be no minimizing language or missed details.

Did he move out?

Did you tell your kids the truth? Dr Harley advocates telling the kids the full truth. Giving them vague hints at the problems only confuses them and leaves them more vulnerable to your husband.

Do you have PROOF his family even received the email? Did you know their email address? Did they respond?

Fetish? It sounds like hi a drugging and raping you has really been downplayed.

As for the children, continuing to lie to them won't help anything.

Exactly what was said to your mother? And why didn't you tell your mother and have him on the same phone line with you?

Glad to see you back, blackbird...and glad you exposed to get support from your family.

I don't get the sense you are really separated. Did he actually move out?

I just really felt that I wanted him to. I can't explain why. He told them what needed to be told. Specific details about what he has done to me the past 4 years...even the internet, drugging, and everything....and also the molestation. They know he is getting a polygraph, they know everything.

She said he moved out Friday.

She was sitting in the room with her mom when he exposed himself to her mom so why would he need to be on the phone?

I am asking her, not you.

I am confused also.

Yes. I am lying in my bed alone right now and he is not in this house.

Oh the conversation with my mom happened before he actually left on Friday. We hadn't talked to the kids yet so he stayed until they got home, we talked, had dinner, etc...then he left.

ok, that is great. Where did he go? Does he still have access to the house?

He is at my parents, and he does have access but he is very respectful of me and is letting me lead on contact. He obviously would rather be here, but is willing to stay away as long as it takes.

It's a start! I'm very happy to see you back. DO NOT let him come home at this time. You said the poly was this week...which day did you schedule it?

I think it would be very helpful if you wrote Dr Harley and let him help you in deciding WHEN your husband should be allowed back. Dr Harley could determine when he is no longer a danger.

Other than your parents, who else did you expose to?

Are your parents willing to let him stay more than a week or two? That would be hard.

It is Tuesday. If he passes with flying colors I would like him to come home but sleep separate obviously. After finding out his actual motivation for what he did to me, I am 100% confident he is not into kids or interested in kids. It is me specifically. Obviously, I am STILL doing the test, but sleeping separate with a locked door is the main precaution. For the first time I threatened legal action if he thinks of touching me, everyone knows what he has done...and he is very motivated to behave himself.

My parents will be away this coming week and I'd rather he is here than alone. And kid wise, the reality is he has a lot he has to help with as far as activities and things so he will be around anyway (again, only if the test comes out well)

Obviously, if for any reason the test does not go well, separation will continue.

What are the questions on the test?

We only fully exposed to his parents and my parents. They are the only ones in that level of need to know. He can stay as long as needed.

Thats a great idea.

Agree. This is a fantastic idea!

BBF, that is not what Dr Harley said. The polygraph has nothing to do with the reasons for the separation. The purpose of the separation is to protect YOU from being sexually assaulted by him in your sleep.

This is why I am opposed to the polygraph, because you are using it to change the subject. You don't need a polygraph to know that you are being sexually assaulted in your sleep and that your husband is not safe to live with.

He obviously won't make a radical and demonstrated change in his lifestyle by Tuesday. You have no evidence that he is a safe person FOR YOU!


I see the real issue being swept under the rug AGAIN. You swept it under the rug in 2011 and today you are doing the same again.

So many questions! Trying to answer everyone...

Top question is "have you ever touched our children for sexual reasons"

Second: have you ever had physical sexual contact with any other woman (more than a hug)

Otherwise, I've asked everything I can think of and I'm satisfied with his answers. He has revealed a whole lot over the past week or so. He still maintains he has physically done no more than hug other women, so am verifying that.

I promise I am not sweeping the issue under the rug. I know despite what his intentions are, he remains a danger to me. That would be the reason for the locked door, which I am simply not going to get any safer than that. Obviously he will also not be mixing me anymore drinks up or anything like that either. He needs professional help to understand what is going on and be safe. I may never want him to sleep in the same bed with me again, I don't know.

I see this is being swept under the rug again... There is absolutely no way she has "solid evidence" he has made a radical change in 4 days.

Dr Harley recommends a year separation to couples that experience physical abuse and will only advocate reconciliation when he has solid evidence the problem is no longer existent.

The polygraph has nothing to do with his sexual assaults on you, BBF, so I am baffled what its outcome has to do with his return. That is not why he was asked to leave in the first place.

And I have to ask you this: have you privately questioned your children to see if he has trifled with them?

You are not safe unless you are separated. The whole point of this exercise is to separate until he provides solid evidence that you are safe. This plan does not provide that at all.

You should lock out of your HOME. Not just your bedroom. This is just another sweep the problem under the rug exercise.

I have not specifically asked about their father, but I regularly remind them they can tell me anything like that, and have asked if anyone has done anything, and we go over the only people who should be touching anywhere private, which as they get older is an incredibly short list.

I do not think he is cured. I believe there is a good chance he cannot be trusted to sleep with me ever. I am not expecting him to go to one appt, be cured, and live happily ever after. I know it is a long road ahead.

Most bedroom lock doors can be opened with a pair of scissors.
My children can open them easily.
They are really for appearance more than anything else.

Blackbirdfly,

How you privately ask your children makes all the difference as to how they respond to you. (For example, if you go into the conversation telling them that you don't think daddy has been touching them, then they won't tell you anything anyway.)

I think dr. Harley himself said sleeping separately was an option when he spoke to him actually. I also sleep a lot more dressed, I'm aware I have to be careful with drinks, and again, will be locking the door. If he was honestly that determined he could force a window, do technically being locked out of the house wouldn't help. However, he is also determined to be safe, and we have talked extensively about every measure we can think of that would be reasonable.

I think you need to get ahold of Dr. Harley directly. I think this situation is way more serious than this forum is equipped to handle. I think it could work out if you would follow Dr Harley's advice, but you have never done that.

Like Dr Harley stated in his post:
We can't help you if you intend on sweeping this under the rug again. Separating from your husband until he has provided solid evidence of change is of the utmost importance. There is no way that can happen in 4 days.

This man has been assaulting you for YEARS. It will take more than 4 days to resolve this issue. And it certainly will not be solved by a polygraph test. That test is a distraction from the main issue just like I have said all along.

It is being used to say "see, he is not so bad! He has not molested my children!" When in fact, he has drugged and sexually assaulted you for years. He has had numerous affairs.

But that is not what Dr Harley advised. Can you please write Dr Harley and handle this directly with him? There is a lot of denial going on here that is more than our ability to handle.

I would never lead them like that. I was abused by my own father, I'm aware it happens. I want them to come to me if anything was even said that made them uncomfortable, from anyone.

We are locking this thread until Dr. Harley has had a chance to respond.

Blackbirdfly:

I will correspond with you and your husband by email from now on to provide advice and encouragement as you face this very difficult situation. As you already know, my position is that you should separate into different houses, you should report what happened to the authorities (police and social services), and your husband should begin a program designed to help people who engage in sexual misconduct. I know for a fact that your husband is very sincere about putting this life behind him, but unless his past behavior is exposed to those who know what to do with it (police and social services), his willingness to change will not lead to an actual change.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

BB,

I am so glad you came back. I prayed so hard you would. Please remember that though some posters on here may sound harsh, words typed don"t always come out the same without hearing a person's tone. I believe they just feel an urgency to get you and your children safe.

I hope you take Dr Harley up on his offer as he is offering you a priceless gift. You can always post on here to get feedback on your personal recovery.

I continue to pray for you and your family as you go down this very long painful road, that one day, I pray has a happy outcome, especially for your 2 children, the innocents in all this.

Blackbirdfly,

Thank you for answering me last night. I was typing back a response about how it is a fantastic suggestion to talk directly to Dr. Harley when your thread was locked. He is the best person to help you with this! You can get through this. You're not alone. I will pray for you and your family also.

You've gotten some really great advice. I just want to add that the wording on the question needs to be changed from "touched sexually" to "interacted in a sexual way".

As I said before, there are many types of sexual abuse that don't involve touching. As long as you're going to all the expense of a poly, the question should be as broad as possible.

I would also change the wording from "our children" to what you had earlier suggested about "any minors since our marriage". You should be concerned about anyone he may have harmed, not just the ones under your roof.

This whole mess is a problem for the authorities.

As Dr Harley says it is imperative that you report what you know to the legal authorities.

I am so pleased he feels your husband is sincere in wishing to change. He is very experienced in that field and has helped people turn their life around. I know he has achieved extraordinary successes. You should take heart from that assessment.

However you really will not help him by encouraging any ducking out from legal consequences. He must make things right re his cousin and the underage girls he targeted online.

You cannot start this new step by being someone who will not hold him accountable.

I did email with dr. Harley....I appreciate everyone's advice.....it is difficult for me because I don't see the person that everyone else sees.

Starting something legal is huge....He is begging me not to. And he is entering therapy. I am not making excuses, just thinking out loud. I feel like I am holding his life in my hands and all I want is a normal life with him. I imagine the therapist will agree with dr. Harley....

And dr. Harley is wrong.....he always says infidelity is the worst thing you can go through, but it isn't. This is.

Anyway, I wanted to say I did contact him, and I am trying to follow his advice and I will keep you all posted. Poly is tomorrow....which dr. Harley does approve of.

I'm glad that you came back and especially so because you are in direct contact with Dr. Harley.

Keep opening your eyes.

LTL

Tomorrow you will finally be able to do the right thing. I think you are in an overload of emotions. Everyone is different and maybe you need this in order to know which path is the correct one to follow.

I do believe you will do the best thing for your children and yourself once you are positive of what the truth is. There are many on this forum that would not need a poly, as they could not live with someone who did what your H did and would already be done.

I'm so glad you are communicating with Dr. Harley. Good for you!

Continued Prayers!!

BBF,

I am so glad to hear that you are staying in contact with Dr. Harley!

Blackbird,
I do realize I've been a tad harsh in my responses. Please know they were not intended to be brash or rude. I have a personal heart for what you're going through. To have direct advise from Dr. Harley is a real blessing! However extreme it may sound, please listen. I wholeheartedly agree with it. In order for your husband to make a full recovery from what he has done, he HAS TO take responsibility for it. It will prove to him the severity of his actions and prove to you the sincerity of his remorse.

Today is going to be a long and extremely stressful day for you regardless of the outcome. I understand the need for the polygraph and I am very glad you're going through with it.

Please know that my heart goes out to you and your children. I will be thinking of you and praying hard for you today.

What he tends to mean is that it is the deceit and poisoned, hidden life within the marriage which makes for such pain.



I can appreciate how afraid both of you must be.

What I will say is that I have in the past been afraid of following Dr H's no-nonsense advice. I had the choice to either take Dr H's strong medicine or go down the easy, fluffy route.

Each time I have tried to skip the hard stuff, it's meant personal disaster for me and more pain than the pain I feared.

I've learned to listen to him and it is never as scary a leap as it seems. Talk to Dr H, he will have an insight based on logic and will steer you away from emotions like fear.

The notion of being trapped by your own emotions as Dr Harley mentioned is so real. I've had this experience myself.

From reading your thread, I am noting a pattern I've seen in myself under different circumstances. There is the not knowing, then knowing and either husbands rationalization tricking you...or yourself imagining all kinds of scenarios about what will happen if you take the advice given here as though you/we have total control of the future...

So really this is all about letting go.

You are assuming the new life that is likely to happen due to exposure/separation will be dismal. But really you do not know this to be true. Dr Harley has suggested you take one week off to help begin to 'clear' your head. That's your first baby step and possibly a little window to a better future.

Another possible thinking error from your prolonged abuse...

That a two year old has not been harmed based on your evaluation of outward appearances such as FB posts in this relatives now adult years.
Exposure may make all the difference in her adult relationships and to her children too.

For one, look at yourselves, you were both harmed as children.

And now the biggest pattern I am seeing or objectively noting...

YOU are that two year old today. Your husband and yourself are both saying everything is OK as long as the person is 'not aware' in some fashion via age, medication, lack of consciousness. Its OK to sexually assault as long as the person is lacking the information/intelligence/cognitive awareness at the moment as w/age/sleep/drugs/lies/placement on the internet. Your husbands targets have changed but its all the same and that is why he is dangerous yet in this immediate timeframe.

Your husband in these 'moments' sees you and other women/girls as one-dimensional objects. You are asking us to see HIM as you do in a three-dimensional framework. Objectively, we are about safety and are not in the same emotional trap. We can reflect back to you how he is seeing you in these 'moments' We are showing you how unsafe it is for a human being--YOU-- to be exploited/preyed upon. And this process he is using extends beyond you as well. You are not containing it. It has a life of its own and its soul robbing. Your husband has helped you see yourself one-dimensionally too.

And about your insomnia...

This falling asleep and later waking up sounds like stress related insomnia. There may be a message in there for you about being aware on some level that you are NOt safe in your sleep. Or it could be from the half life of the drugs you unknowingly being given. you might want to check w/your doctor about your sleep issues.

BBF,

How did the polygraph session go?

Recent posts speculating about this poster have been removed. Dr. Harley is in contact with Blackbirdfly so let's not make assumptions.

I can only imagine. He went to the test, he took the test, he passed the test.

I am so very relieved. I just knew he wasn't lying about that, and so happy I verified. I'm thrilled he was so willing to do it, it means a lot to me. It was a very emotional day and I just needed to process everything for awhile on my own.

Does DR. Harley know this?

What did Dr. Harley say?

He does....

I don't think he mentioned the poly. I think he was saying I'm being unreasonable in a nice way.....and that we shouldn't sleep together for awhile. Or for the foreseeable future was his exact wording I believe.

Can you post his email here?

I had said I don't think he is really a sexual deviant...bc the poly went well. Admittedly I have not actually looked up the definition. And I don't know that he would admit he is either at this point. I don't know, I need to read up on this all. And I do agree we will not be sleeping together.



Your husband would admit to you that he is sexually deviant as defined by most people who are professional sex therapists. His problem is that he acts on deviant thoughts and that makes him dangerous. The fact that he drugged you makes him a risk to your health, to say nothing about what he did to you after you were drugged. When I work with the spouses of sex offenders, I often find myself trying to talk them into doing something that, for most people, seems obvious, but for them seems extreme. We�ll try to help you through this, but I would not sleep with him for the foreseeable future.

Are you planning to expose to the authorities as Dr. Harley suggested?

No, I'm satisfied with the poly that I don't need to. He still is going to do therapy.

I would tell the authorities, picking and choosing does not help you at all. What questions were asked on the poly?

Basically the question was whether he had physical sexual contact with anyone whatsoever during our marriage. And he fully explored that. He is familiar with sex offenders/deviants and also asked about other deviant behaviors and he didn't have any. Not dead people, kids, public stuff, whatever. I don't have the report yet but examiner was happy with the test and said he had encountered much much worse. So, obviously he is not a psychologist...but it was nice to hear anyway that he isn't too bad off.

What he said is that you should separate and report your husband to the police. The reason is because your husband drugs you and sexually assaults you in your sleep. The polygraph did not change any of the reasons he told you to separate.

Your husband would be considered a sexual deviant.


Has the issue of him exploiting females at work, watching porn and masturbating at work been addressed and resolved? Is he leaving that job?

So you didn't ask whether or not he'd had sexual contact with your children? I thought that was the objective of the poly. How did he explore other issues? I thought only one question was allowed in order to have accurate results.

I am not trying to make you uncomfortable. Just trying to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

What does it make you think when Dr. Harley said the solution to most (all of us here, including Dr. Harley) seems obvious, but the spouse of the sexual deviant finds it extreme?

Are you still separated?

Also, is the therapist your husband is going to see an expert in sexual deviancy?

This is trick I used to do when I was a practicing alcoholic. It is called defining deviancy down. The trick is to find the worst possible example as a point of comparison. That way you can always look better.

He has not had an issue with females at work since this affair, which ended a year and a half ago. He had had previous issues, but none since, so as far as I can tell he has resolved it. He makes it a point to not engage with anyone on a personal level I think. The porn and masturbating has been fixed. He doesn't have the access anymore. He is job hunting but it isn't easy these days.

And yes, I know dr. Harley would like for me to call the police...but it isn't going to happen unless I am given a good reason...which would be if he did it again. We will be sleeping separately, definitely.

He has had affairs at work, though, and that is the point. He has to change the environment that led to his affair. He has exploited his female subordinates and masturbates at work.

Well he explained the poly which was kind of confusing but in the end basically meant I really only had one question. If he had sexual contact with anyone else. He did not want to start with minor stuff bc knowing too much requires him to report it....and he would have to confess previous crimes to take that test, so he wanted to start by knowing less. So he worded it in a way that covered everything and he passed. If he had failed that he would have had to go through and then possibly discovered anything bad. But all the language was very clear and he definitely received a passing score. He has not had sexual relations with any other man, woman, child, anything. My husband did confess to what he did to me and he asked other than that does he have any deviant behavior. And went into specifics.

I haven't received the report yet but he needed a +5 to pass and he got a +11. I believe he is truthful and I believe any deviant behavior is exclusive to me.