Our 25th anniversary is this July. We have 7 children - the youngest is not quite 2.

I got really busy three years ago with a side job and my wife formed an attachment to another woman in my emotional absence. The other woman is married. Their relationship became physical (kissing and heavy petting - but they both claim it stopped there). My wife had always been honest to a fault before meeting this other woman - and suddenly she became secretive and deceptive.

After 2 1/2 years of dealing with this, I grew emotionally distant from her and did some things I'm not proud of that have hurt her.

It culminated in November 2013 when I refused to show any affection to her for 7 weeks unless she ended her relationship with the other woman. She looked at it as a divorce situation. I confronted her after the 7 weeks and said I was leaving - but by then, she didn't care.

I broke down and told her I didn't want to leave and we reconciled, but with huge issues still hanging over our heads. (That was January 5th.)

On February 7th, I discovered her password to her phone, email and Facebook. I found evidence of her continued inappropriate relationship with the other woman, seeking connection with the woman's husband, comments about continually struggling with a desire for a relationship with them and additional details. I asked her about it and she bold-faced lied to me. That's when I admitted that I had accessed her email and had proof she was doing all of that and lying to me. She blew her stack at me.

We had three days of fighting. I went to a lawyer - with her begging me not to leave, not to give up, to come back to her.

After I saw the lawyer, I realized how horrific divorce would be for our children and I repented of that line of thinking. I came home - but found my wife would not speak with me and had turned off her emotions toward me. (That was February 11th.)

Since then, we've attended marriage counseling - but she now refuses to go back. She said, "Any counselor we see would tell me that I'm wrong and side with you."

She has accused me of being emotionally abusive - and there is some truth to that which I cannot deny. I'm seeing our former marriage counselor alone - and another counselor to help me work through my abusive attitude and behavior. (I would like to think that I can take criticism and improve myself.)

Things seemed to be getting better, but for the last three weeks she has completely turned off all affection. At least for the previous time she would occasionally hold my hand, we had a few times that she kissed me and she even spontaneously told me that she loved me. Now, she won't make contact with me physically, sometimes she pulls away when I touch her, there's no kissing and maybe 1 out of 10 times she'll respond with "I love you, too" when I tell her (though that could be accidentally and by wrote as opposed to actually wanting to say anything).

She still talks to her former lover 15-20 hours a week, sees her nearly daily (shopping and other activities) and is constantly texting her and Facebook messaging her.

She will have sex with me if I ask for it - though she has recently complained about that. And the sex we have is "robot sex" - no emotion at all. Just a physical release.


I'm in hell. I am not the kind of man who appreciates emotionless sex. I'd rather not have it at all. I ache for her love and affection.

We still share the same bed, but we don't touch anymore. We used to be called "the Velcro twins" because we'd touch all the time, hold hands, snuggle, kiss - even after 24 years of marriage, all the time.

Now? Nothing.

My counselors tell me that I need to avoid her, while still showing her affection. She still seeks me out to talk to me and to tell me about her day - but we don't talk about anything more meaningful than mundane life. We don't talk about how we feel at all. Nothing. (I'm also the kind of guy who wants deep, meaningful discussions.)

She complains about my romance - so I've stopped sending cards, writing poetry, leaving messages, bringing her flowers and gifts, making her breakfast, etc.

I gave a vow to God to love her for the rest of my life. I can't turn back from that vow.

Can anyone offer any advice on what to do? I've read a bunch of books. I've read a bunch of sites. I've done everything I can think.

(And, yes, there's lots more to the history - we have 25 years of a life together and I can't cram it all into a single post. Feel free to ask.)

Welcome to Marriage Builders.
I have a few questions ...
Did you expose her affair?
Does the other woman's husband know?

This is a big reason why you haven't made any progress in recovery. The affair is still ongoing -- she is NOT a FORMER lover -- and it will continue as long as they are in contact with each other. Think of your wife as a drug addict. The OW is her drug of choice, and she cannot withdraw from the drug as long as she keeps taking hits (continued contact).

Your counselor's advice is detrimental to you winning your wife back. Wayward wives do not respond to being ignored. It just confirms to her that you are the bad guy who neglects her. If you want to win her back, you are going to have to become irresistible to her. You will need to relentlessly pursue and woo her. She may act annoyed or angry when you do because you will be messing with her belief that you are the bad guy, but ignore her protests and keep at it. Have you read about Plan A?

Dr Harley has stated that lesbian affairs are the EASIEST to break up, btw. They are very fragile so you have a great chance at success if you will expose.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about lesbian affairs:

Hosea1968,

You need to track down ALL of the OW's family, church, work, and other contacts. Then massively expose without warnings, threats or delay. Gather all your evidence, DO NOT TELL YOUR WW ANYTHING!

If I understand you correctly your WW had relations with the OWH then you need to do the same to OWH.

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks for the welcome, Markos' wife.

I'll try to answer your questions and provide more information:


I don't know what you mean by "expose". If that means "tell others", I told a few people and she accused me of "trying to damage her reputation". I threatened to expose everything. when it all came to a head, I was not completely rational and was not respectful. I said and did a lot of things I wish I had not said or done.

Yes, the other woman's husband knows - and he has threatened to kill my wife, our children, me and his wife over the years - apparently he threatened his wife quite recently.

My wife insists that the physical relationship ended a long time ago and now they "are like sisters". She completely refuses to acknowledge that her relationship with this other woman is an emotional affair. They are constantly talking, texting, facebook messaging and shopping together. My wife said she has "committed" to seeing this woman "at least 30 minutes a day" - and they talk on the phone 15-20 hours a week.


I don't disagree. I threatened to leave her if she didn't end the relationship - but she was willing to let me go. And that's the state that we've been in for the last 4 months - she has never returned to being affectionate toward me since I had my appointment with a lawyer. I realized in that appointment how horrible a divorce would be for our children and came back to attempt to reconcile - she hasn't shown me affection since. (I shouldn't say "never" - she occasionally shows me affection, as if it was an after-thought or an accident or she is overwhelmed with emotions and gives in - and then later she is cold and harsh and distant.) She says she doesn't trust me - and I have to admit that I have done things in the past that I have to fix. I am not lily-white and pure.


At this point the only way that Plan A would work would be to win her heart back first - she is already expecting me to leave her and that's why she's refusing to soften her defenses against me. She has already divorced me emotionally. At this stage, I'm trying to win her back WHILE she is in this emotional affair with the other woman.


I'm afraid that her limerance and infatuation have coalesced into a solid bond. They are in solidarity against their husbands (me and the other woman's husband). Because he is abusive, they see me through that same lens and I've been accused of being abusive. (Sadly, because of my recent outbursts and the last few years of fighting over this other woman, I cannot claim to be innocent of the charges.)


If I want my marriage to end, that's exactly what I need to do. The only way this will work is if she cares about me - and she has completely shut off her heart from me and refuses to care.

When you say "expose" - do you mean provide copies of emails, copies of journal entries, copies of facebook messages and so forth?


No, the Other Woman's Husband (I think that's what OWH means) made several passes at my wife, but my wife finds him "gross". He has said things to her that "whatever my wife does with someone else, I should have the right to do with them, too." He held her hand. He hugged her. He came into my house and talked to her for a long time when I wasn't there. That is all that has been done between them.

My counselor did not say to "ignore her" and I realize I said the wrong thing - she said not to "focus on her". I was wrapped up in all these analyses of her body language, her movements, her time frames, when she said X, how she said it, etc. And the counselor said to stop doing that - but to continually show her affection.

We are still in the same bed and we still have sex. My wife told me she wanted to know what my needs were (sexually) so that she could meet them. I've been telling her when I want sex and she has provided for those needs. However, it's "robot sex" - no emotion, no kissing, no "I love you" - just raw, physical release. I ensure she has her release, as well. Occasionally when we're finished, she'll snuggle me and we'll talk like friends.

I've just started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" and I've changed some of my behavior. In the past, I've shown affection to her by touching her non-sexually in erogenous zones. (I would snuggle her at night and slide a hand under her nightgown and hold her breast as we drifted to sleep, for instance - not trying for anything, just an "intimate touch".) I have stopped that. Last night, I snuggled her and I laid my arm across her belly and draped my hand on her hip bone or laid it across her leg. Enough for a "snuggle" - but without any intimate touching.

I expected this morning for her to be distant - because whenever we touch at all, she's distant the next day or two. However, I kissed her cheek, her lips and her neck and said, "Have a good day, I love you." And she responded with "I love you, too." (I have no idea of it was by wrote or accidental - but there are many days when she doesn't say anything in response.)

She claims that she loves me. She claims that she doesn't want to leave me. She has told friends and a counselor this - and my kids have overheard her telling someone and told me later that she said it. She has also said, "He is the best father they could ever have." And she has said some praising words of me in front of them and in front of others when she didn't know I could hear her.

I am - and must be - hopeful. If I can win her love and affection back, then I can implement plan A. That is the only thing I know how to do at this point.

Oh, and a complication: she's in perimenopause. She's been skipping cycles and going through night-sweats and hot-flashes. This is a further complication because she perceived her "worth" as being pregnant and having children - and that's going away. She is trying to strike out independently (something I've encouraged her to do for years, btw) - but coming as it does during this period of time, it's driving insecurities into me.

We are not strong enough for me to implement Plan A at all. If I attempted it, we would immediately be at Plan B - and she would let me go.

First I have to win back her heart. Only then will either Plan A or Plan B have any positive effect.

Questions:

Should I show romance? Cards? Poetry? Post-its on the mirror? Flowers? Making her breakfast? Sending her emails with pictures of flowers? Texts that say, "I'm thinking about you, I miss you." That kind of thing?

I've shut it down because the counselor said I was "too focused on her" -- but I have a reputation as Mr. Romance to uphold! (Her nickname for me throughout our 25 years together.) Not doing those things for her is difficult. However, I'm afraid that right now, it's driving her away more than pulling her close.

Hi, Hosea. Welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the situation that brings you here.

Is there any chance you were on Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders radio show last week? I seem to remember hearing a caller whose situation was similar to yours.

Have you read the Basic Concepts here on this site?

Do you own the book Surviving an Affair?

Before you go too much further - I'm not sure you completely understand Plan A and Plan B. Best to reserve making your decisions until you read up a bit more and get educated.

In order to repair your marriage with your wife, are you willing to create an uncompromisable fifteen hours a week in your schedule for her FOR LIFE? Time that will be spent alone with her, giving her your undivided attention, meeting her intimate emotional needs (conversation and affection)? Time that will not be put aside no matter what happens each week? And probably more than fifteen hours for awhile, while you restore your marriage?

After you read the Basic Concepts, you will see that this other woman met her emotional needs through time spent together, engaging in conversation and meeting other intimate emotional needs. You're going to need to replace that time with time spent with you.

If you think this is at all unrealistic, it is probably not possible to save your marriage.

Exposure is the best way to break up an affair. Read this: Exposure 101
You must first break up her affair before you can win her back. This is an essential first step towards recovery. Affairs thrive on secrecy.

Plan A IS all about winning her heart back!
Instead of "His Needs, Her Needs," please get "Surviving An Affair" and read through it. You can download it on a amazon and start reading today. It contains the plan you need to follow.

Yes, this is all a part of Plan A. If you stop doing these things, it confirms to her that you are the neglectful bad guy who isn't worth her time. She needs to see that you want her.

I will keep reading. I am meeting with our former marriage counselor - we attended for about six weeks before my wife refused to go back saying, "No matter what counselor we visit, they will all tell me I'm wrong and side with you."

Because she accused me of being abusive (emotionally), I'm also seeing another counselor to help me adjust and resolve those issues.


Yes. Absolutely. My wife is and always has been my best friend. She is and always has been the one that God chose for me and I still love her with all my heart. I would rather hear her "prattle" on about the same things over and over than anyone else telling me new and exciting things. I committed myself to her and I realize that it was my neglect that caused her to wander. I take full responsibility - and now that I know what I need to do, I'm more than willing.

She's been trying to distance herself from me, complaining that I'm "hovering" around her - but I've cut back extensively on my second job and pulled back from other hobbies so that I can be available to her. She still pulls away - but she also spends more time with me than when all this started. And I drop everything I'm doing and look her in the eyes and pay attention to her when she talks - even if I'm reading and she interrupts me or watching a movie (when I've gone off to give her the space she's asked for).

Last night, I made a point to try to draw her out about a book that we both read. It also happens to be a book that the other woman read. She has been trying to share experiences with the other woman - and then share them with me (and vice versa). She got the other woman to read a book that I had read a few years ago and then she got me to read this book that she and the other woman read. I don't know what to make of it, but when she asks me to read something and share it with her, I'm doing it.

Anyway, I'm trying to draw her out and meet her needs when she expresses them. She told me that she wants me to spend more time with the family, so we've been having family game nights. She's including me in reading the Bible, though it's been a bit of a struggle at times to get the whole family into a room (and quiet!) for 30 minutes.



I see that now. I also find it interesting that she is spending 15-20 hours a week talking to this other woman - that's *my* time!



Two hours a day and three on Sunday? Not a problem. In fact, I'd like it to be more than that!


I'm going to take this under advisement for the time-being - get my ducks in a row - while working to win back her heart. She says she is "not bisexual" and "not attracted to women" and she claims that her relationship with the other woman is platonic and "sisterly". I'm going to presume that this is true for the time being - while I work to win her back. (They had some kissing sessions years ago and she complained that I was castigating her for sexual liaisons when they didn't do that - still, at least they aren't having sex...)

If I find new evidence that the relationship is more than emotional, then I'll push for exposure.


She complains that I'm "using my natural charm" to win her back and it's a "tactic" - part of the book she read about emotional abuse warned her that an emotional abuser will do that to get her "back under his thumb".

Now that I know what I've done to her, I want never to do it again. I want to be the man that she wants and needs and I want her to be the wife that I want and need.

She asked me to tell her when I had sexual needs - but one of my counselors suggested giving her more space and not telling her my needs. Should I tell her of my sexual needs? Or just wait for her to make those moves?

She still does things to try to please me. She dresses in a way that she knows I like. She is concerned that if she "bulks up" (she's training for a marathon) that I won't find her as attractive (I'm not into muscles on a woman). She does things that she knows I'll like. She even bought me a little treat while out grocery shopping (with the other woman) that she knew I'd really appreciate.

I have to see these as positive things - even if she is otherwise withholding affection and keeping me at arms' length emotionally.

Do you realize that emotional affairs are just as damaging to a marriage (if not more so) than sexual affairs? Especially for women.

This relationship is NOT sisterly. I have 4 sisters. I have NEVER engaged in a kissing session with any of them. This woman is a lover, even if they have never kissed since. Your wife is addicted to her as if she were addicted to a drug.

You cannot win her back as long as the addiction continues.

At this point, exposure is the kindest thing you can do for your wife. She cannot break the addiction on her own. Exposure will be the first step in killing the affair, and thus, it is the first step in breaking your wife's addiction.

She needs your help.

Hosea, can you answer my question about the radio show, and the other questions in that post?

"All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." John 3:20-21

You need to expose the affair to the light.

Sorry. I thought I got all of them.

I didn't send anything or post anything before my first post in this thread - I wasn't on the radio show.

I have just been reading the Basic Concepts. I'm just now digesting the details.

I don't own the book Surviving an Affair, but I'm planning to read it as soon as I'm finished with His Needs, Her Needs - I'm 40% done.

Prisca,
I completely understand that the emotional affair is just as damaging. I completely agree that she needs to walk away from this unwholesome relationship ASAP.

I'm getting my ducks in a row (proof) before I expose.

Hosea, I would put that book aside for now. That is exactly the WRONG book to be reading right now.


According to your first post, you have evidence of her affair.
The above is your evidence so all you need to do is expose the affair at this point. If you read the exposure linked in my signature, you will find best practices and exposure templates.

If I already threatened in February to end the relationship due to the affair - and she was willing to let me end it and emotionally divorced me, and she has already prepped her friends that I'm "jealous" of her "friendship" with the other woman, how is exposure at this point effective? I've already screwed up.

Additionally, she's starting to show signs of improvement. She has also been hurt by me thru emotional abuse and my own emotional affairs. (I have completely cut off all contact with other women and I am 100% devoted to my wife.) My wife, though, is living in the past and refuses to acknowledge the changes.

So, please, let me table the exposure point *for now*. I firmly believe that if I move to that step at this juncture, that I'll lose her forever and for good. She is already at the point where she doesn't trust me, doesn't believe anything I say and has faced threats from me that I'll "ruin her reputation" by exposure.

If I step back and expose at this point, everything that has been gained will be lost. I am still in the period of showing her unconditional love - as Plan A suggests.

She has also been reading a book called "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft that basically teaches that only men can be emotional abusers and that "tactics" of the emotional abuser are to threaten to expose, to ruin reputations, to gather allies against her and to use unconditional love for the purpose of "getting her back under his thumb of control".

Right now, she is recoiling from me because she perceives me to be controlling and abusive. If I expose now, it simply plays into her (mistaken) belief that I want to control her.

There will come a time for exposure - but right now, I'm trusting in the Lord and showing her the love of Christ through me until her defenses are softened and she once more *cares* whether I leave her or not. (Right now, she's steeled and prepared for it to happen, so it will have little effect - and she'll simply use it as further reason to nurse her grudge against me.)

Last night we snuggled for most of the night. Although she didn't tell me she loved me this morning when I said it, she told me twice yesterday. She also accepted my affection and didn't withdraw from it.

I will read the book you suggest - but time is on my side. The longer her relationship with the other woman continues in this state, the more likely it is to erode and collapse. She is not moving closer to this other woman - and she is moving closer to me.

I would definitely suggest moving immediately to Surviving an Affair and wait on His Needs, Her Needs.

Thanks for the answer about the radio show - if that was you, I wanted to go back and review what Dr. Harley had said to you.

Exposure is effective for a whole host of reasons.

Her feelings change radically from moment to moment. Everyone in an affair is in what Dr. Harley says psychologists call a "double approach avoidance conflict." They ping pong back and forth: when they are with the affair partner, the affair partner's negatives are magnified and they wish they were with their spouse. But when they are with their spouse, their spouse's negatives are magnified and they wish they were with their affair partner.

Exposure provides a dose of sobering reality. It hastens whatever is going to happen anyway to minimize the damage to you and your family.

Hosea,

You are putting the cart before the horse. Exposure is not a weapon to be put in reserve for a later date if needed. It is The first step towards killing the affair and recovery. THEN you go to Plan A.

The longer you wait, the more entrenched her affair will be become. The sooner you expose, the sooner you can start recovery.

We have heard this before, hundreds of times. There is nothing unique with your wayward wife, nor her affair. She will be angry at exposure, but they all are. Your marriage can survive her anger. It cannot survive her continuing in this affair.

Would it mean anything if we told you that we've heard hundreds of people say this and it always leads to failure?

Exposing her affair IS loving her. You love her enough to take drastic action to try to prevent her from ruining her life. It is like turning in a drug addict son to the police.

She will not start caring about you until quite some time AFTER exposure. It is the FIRST step to initiate the process of recovery.

Delayed exposure is less effective - this is pretty much the only tool you have to stop her addiction. If you wait, you will have no tools at all, and the addiction will have done untold damage.

Dr. Harley provides some free help here on his radio show:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

We have heard your story numerous times, I am very sad to say. We know how it plays out, and we are recommending you take the path that is most likely to lead to success.

"So, please, let me table the exposure point *for now*. I firmly believe that if I move to that step at this juncture, that I'll lose her forever and for good. She is already at the point where she doesn't trust me, doesn't believe anything I say and has faced threats from me that I'll "ruin her reputation" by exposure. "

Hosea, this step needs to come first, not last. Otherwise you are pushing a car up the hill with parking brake on. The longer you avoid this step, the more entrenched the affair becomes and hrs less likely you will be to save your marriage. This affair could have been killed a long time ago if you would have exposed FIRST.

By keeping her affair secret, you only ENABLE it because affairs thrive on secrecy. You can't save a marriage when you are an enabler.

So we need you to do that immediately or you will lose your wife to an affair.

Exposure is the most effective, therapeutic thing you can do for your marriage. You can't afford to skip it.

I just want to point out that your own methods have not worked for you and I believe God sent you to us for a reason: to save your marriage. But we can't help you if you continue to follow your own path.

"If I step back and expose at this point, everything that has been gained will be lost. I am still in the period of showing her unconditional love - as Plan A suggests. "

The most important part of plan a is EXPOSURE. You are not doing plan a, you are doing Plan Hosea, which will lead you to divorce. The longer you follow this bad plan the harder it will be to help you.

I'm researching Plan A and B now... This is why I'm focusing on showing her unconditional love right now:


I'm trying to create that place where she finds it attractive to return home. Right now, she isn't in that place. She would rather that I not be there. Thus, implementing exposure (which would force a Plan B situation with her) would only serve to drive her away from me at this point.

Exposure does not force a Plan B. Nobody can force you into Plan B. In fact, since you are a man, it is very unlikely you will need Plan B for quite some time.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about exposure:


Exposure is the very first step.

You have this backwards. The affair is pushing her away and you are enabling it. By keeping the affair a secret, you are fueling it. You are enabling it. This is tantamount to pushing a car up the hill with the parking brake on. Exposure is an essential part of Plan A. It can't be skipped. All of the "unconditional love" in the world cannot compensate for your enabling.

We can't help you if you won't expose the affair.

What about this as a starting point for the negotiation of Step A?

If you want her to desire your marriage then you need to remove the obstacle of the affair. You are trying to "attract" someone who is under the influence of heroin. In order to be successful, you must FIRST remove the heroin or she will be too high to value your offer. With adultery, you must do everything to kill the affair so she will want the marriage.

The way you kill the affair is by exposing it.

It is a nice letter but not appropriate for a spouse in an affair. It just tells me you don't understand the mentality of a wayward. You are trying to reason with a wayward.

We can't help you if you won't follow the program, my friend. If you are here to blog your own personal plan, you are wasting your time and ours.

I was sending that to you to ask for your critique and what I should do to change it.

If you have suggestions, I'm very open to what I need to do to change it. That's why I posted it.

Plan A says to attempt a negotiation before exposure. That's the point of this - attempting negotiation. If she agrees to end the affair (unlikely) then I don't need to expose. If she rejects this "olive branch" then I have followed the plan and my next course is exposure. (I've already started gathering contact information for the friends and family of everyone involved.)

I will not crtique the letter because it is not part of the plan.
You are not following the marriage builders plan, which has proven successful time and time again. You are creating your own plan, and the odds of it succeeding are small.

We cannot help you if you will not follow the plan.

This is false. It needs to be exposed regardless.

According to the material on this site, this is what it says to do:


If you are advocating that I skip over the negotiation phase and go straight to exposure, then it is you who are suggesting something different than the Plan (at least as posted on this site).

What am I misunderstanding?

WE are advocating that you follow Plan A and stop skipping it. You are to expose FIRST. Nowhere does Dr Harley tell spouses to send longwinded letters to a wayward and skip exposure. That is a useless endeavor. Would you send such a letter to a falling down drunk? Of course you wouldn't. Well, your wife has the mentality of a falling down drunk. And she will remain that way as long as you keep her secret.

Please read Dr. Harley's quotes:

here

Here, he makes clear that exposure is the FIRST STEP towards recovery:


Here is my thread that links several radio shows where Dr Harley tells betrayed spouses they must expose: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=163853&Number=2518985#Post2518985

This is all false.

You should throw the letter away and follow Marriage Builders. You are making strategic mistakes that are going to make it much harder to help you. We can't help you if you won't follow the plans.

Well, firstly, I posted that letter not as something I intended to give to her, but as something I was hoping you would critique and say, "This section sounds good for the initial negotiation, but scrap this section over here..."

I'm feeling very attacked by you all.

When I find a link on the site - like this one: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html - that says "negotiate BEFORE exposure" and then you all come back with "EXPOSE FIRST! EXPOSE FIRST! We won't help you if you don't immediately throw your whole life into chaos before you're emotionally ready to handle it!"

Honestly, you guys get an F as far as helping someone through this. We went from "buy this book and read it" this morning to "we're not going to help you unless you obey our every whim - oh, and by the way, we're just some people on an internet forum who are advocating the exact opposite of three of your marriage counselors..." in the afternoon.

Chill out!

I'm just coming to terms with all this and you're threatening me and badgering me and it's all a lot to deal with at the moment!

I still think, based on reading Dr. Harley's post about negotiating first (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html) that I need to approach this carefully, considerately and with good planning.

I'm gathering my evidence. I'm preparing the list of people to expose it to. I'm reading the book. I've posted a negotiation treatise to get some feedback and you guys went nuclear on me.

Chill out.

My wife is not going anywhere. My life is already chaotic enough. I don't need to throw a boulder into the swimming pool just because a couple people on the internet badgered me into it. I need to study this, understand it and put my ducks in a row before I take any action.

I will not be badgered into any course of action.

And if you considered yourself helpful, you would *guide* instead of badgering and making threats of withholding advice simply because someone is completely new to this (as you, yourselves have said, *I don't understand it* - and you want me to act on something I don't understand? Isn't that a bit like expecting a chimpanzee to drive a car in rush hour traffic?)

What you describe as 'badgering' is really just urgency. The posters on your thread understand what needs to happen here and the urgency of it all.

This thing has been festering out of control for some time, so the sooner you address it like the sickness it is, the better.

Writing a long, complicated letter to an addict is foolish. She won't read it, she won't 'get' it. She doesn't care because she has everything she wants...you've been pretty wimpy about this. Hours and hours of phone calling and other contact with her affair partner? She has it made and she's not going to give it up without a fight.

Trying to negotiate with her is nuts. She's out of her right mind. You simply can't count on getting through to her. Exposure wakes everyone up. It's the bucket of cold water she needs right now to sober up. You are tiptoeing around this when you need to be suiting up for battle.

We've seen your story hundreds and hundreds of times. It's the same story and you fight it the same way. Follow the plan.

Hosea,

If you dont want to follow Dr. Harley's program then don't.
If you want to follow the three marriage counselors, then feel free to. It's your marriage and life.

However, so there is no confusion: Exposure is not subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement referenced in the letter you posted by Dr. Harley.

Dr. Harley is very clear that he encourages exposure because it kills most affairs.

No one here is withholding advice, what they are doing is giving you the advice as per the marriage builders plan, all the people advising you are Vets on here and have helped hindreds of people save their marriage, they do this because they care and want to help people heal like they have healed, they do this in their own time and no one goes out of their way to bash anyone, they all walked in your shoes and have had to do what they are asking you to do. you want to deflect as you are a conflict avoider and scared of rocking the already sunk boat with your wife. With all due respect how far have you gotten with saving your marriage doing it your way??

I wish someone had kept a record of all the people who bash the vets or the plan and alter it to their ways and then come back grovelling to the forum saying I wish I had listened when it's too late for their marriage. Most common regret is "wish I exposed sooner".

It's plain and simple as stated before, you don't have a marriage until your WW separates from her affair, you could turn into Prince Charming tomorrow and as long as she is in an active affair she won't care. That's why you need to Expose first . Exposure kills the fantasy land a WW creates with the OW and shines a true light on the consequences of the affair.

Plan A is a carrot and stick plan, carrot is not Love busting, meeting her needs etc. stick part is exposing and not permitting this affair to continue.

The way I see it you have lost your wife so it can't get any worse than that but if you want any chance to get her back you need to expose without any further delay.

The time you wasted writing that nice letter could have been spent on exposure and you could be a lot further along in saving your marriage than giving a wayward spouse a nice letter that ultimately will mean nothing to them and might as well be written in Chinese as they already have "loved up" feelings for someone else so they don't need your love right now.

Also, you don't threaten to expose. You don't tell her anything. You just do it. To rally support for your marriage. To toss that affair into the light, where it won't be so appealing.

Don't use exposure as a threat or a bargaining chip.

Marathon runners dont bulk up.
Bodybuilders do but many avid women runners are very skinny

I've read through your thread again and thus far, it is 5 pages of you arguing against exposure.
If you dont believe anyone on this forum, why dont you email Dr. Harley directly? Or go to the main page and schedule a telephone session with Steve Harley?

We are mot telling you our "whims," though. We are telling you how the program works because we have been through the program and recovered our own marriages. We are trying to help you avoid making mistakes that will greatly impair your outcome.

Most of us here are in fully recovered marriages, been through the entire program, have met Dr Harley and have listened to hundreds of hours of his radio shows. We know what Dr Harley advises and we know you are making strategic mistakes.

Did you read the quotes we posted? Did you listen to the radio clips I posted? No one is "badgering" you or forcing you into a course of action. We are attempting to help you do this correctly.

For your sake, I hope you can open your mind and put aside your own biased notions. Your marriage depends on it. And I will warn you that folks will not help you for long if you ignore the advice and are rude to the people who are taking their own personal time to help you. We have already saved our marriages and have careers, families, marriages and don't have to help you. We are all volunteers here.

I'm not sure why you came to that conclusion - Dr. Harley is usually pretty clear that Plan A is exposure and expressing a willingness to meet one's spouses emotional needs. It should usually be a little longer and a little heavier on the meeting emotional needs for men than for women. But it definitely includes exposure and does not say to use exposure as a threat or a bargaining chip in a negotiation.

Hosea, I don't mean to argue, but I have listened to over three hundred hours of Dr. Harley on the radio. I have heard him cover Plan A and Plan B over and over again. I am pretty sure I understand him - he doesn't say to negotiate before exposure, and he doesn't say to negotiate before exposure in the article that you linked to.

Here's what he says:

Negotiate to end the affair - it doesn't say negotiate before exposure. In fact, he goes on to say:


That is pretty unequivocal - while you are doing Plan A, exposure is a part of the plan.

I don't think there's a lot to be gained from arguing this. Nobody's going to make you follow Dr. Harley's methods. They certainly don't agree with what a lot of other counselors might tell you. But what most of us here on this forum will tell you is that following other methods wrecked our marriages and following Dr. Harley's recommendations brought them back to life. Some of us like me have heard Dr. Harley counsel hundreds of couples through these issues. We have heard the results when people followed this recommendation; we have heard the results when people did not follow this recommendation.

I can tell you that if my wife or I had an affair, both of us know that it would be no time at all till the affair was exposed to the entire family, church, friends, pretty much everyone we know. And our marriage is better for it.

Okay. Call me thick-headed. I'm getting to it. I've made some calls tonight to get some support. I'm getting contact information for all the friends and family that I need to reach.

The only way I know to get to the other woman's family is to confront them directly at their church. (It's a small, completely independent church without a formal pastoral staff.) I am bold enough to walk in and say, "I'm a Christian and I have a conflict with one of your members who refuses to correct their action and I wish to make a Matthew 18 appeal to the church body. X is having a physical and emotional affair with my wife. I have proof if you need to see it and I am asking you to pray and to influence her to stop contacting my wife. Thank your prayers." (I can also take "backup" if I need to, just to be sure that I don't get into a physical altercation.)

Bad idea? Good idea?

My wife and the other woman both teach classes at the same place and I am working on getting their boss' contact info.

It will take a few days to get it all together. In that time, I plan to read and digest Surviving an Affair. Maybe I'll understand Plan A better.

How should I behave after I send out all the emails and messages? Should I make myself scares? Should I simply go about my routine as normal? Should I cancel her phone service (that's how she maintains contact with the other woman)?

What should I do after exposure?

Hosea,

Yes for now do not tip off your WW of your intentions. I do like your plan.

Your WW has no need to stop since she is cake eating, that is WW has you as a father and provider and source of respectability: and the OW for romance, excitement and love.

Some betrayed spouses suffer this injustice for years or even decades, I don't think you want that future for yourself and your children. Make no mistake about it the OW is also attacking your children by undermining their family and helping to turn your WW in a poor moral example for your kids.

Speaking of your kids you may want to get a DNA test for your youngest.

God Bless
Gamma

Good man!


Does the OW have a facebook page? I would either do a facebook exposure by sending PMs to friends and family, and/or go to her parents home and tell them in person. I would also tell the OW's pastor and ask him to intervene.


You do understand that your wife will need to leave that job in order for the marriage to recover? You may already know this and have a plan in place to make this happen.

I would also plan on exposing to Human Resources in a formal manner. In this instance, Dr Harley does say that if workplace exposure might result in the WS being charged with sexual harassment, another way is to give the WS 30 days to leave the job. Tell her if she is not gone, you will THEN expose in the workplace.


A huge help in exposure is my exposure thread linked in my signature. It gives best practices, talking points, and watch outs. It will also help you develop exposure lists.


I would prepare for her to be furious with you and to threaten you. She will probably threaten divorce and try to kick you out. Just imagine a crackhead who had his crack pipe taken from and you will understand the reaction you will get. don't let it scare you one bit. It will blow over.

Yes, but Facebook has a new policy that if you are not a friend of the person that the message goes into a hole that doesn't inform you that you have received it - you have to go and look in that hole specifically to see what messages you've received from people you don't know. The only way to send a message to someone that you don't have as a friend is to make a friend request of them and include the message in the friend request.

Which is a feasible thing to do, actually.


The church is a little different. It's made up of about 10 families and the "church leadership" are the men in the families who trade off duties of preaching and teaching. They have no formal pastoring. They also don't have a phone or contact info. The only way I know of to reach them is to literally walk in and interrupt the service - which is what I'm thinking of doing.


The teaching jobs they have are with a small, private school that's just getting off the ground and they teach "adjunct" classes - extra stuff - so they don't do more than one day a week. Honestly, so much time is spent away from my children during the week because of this affair (teaching, shopping, exercising, on the phone constantly) that I don't care if the job ends. We don't need the income from her teaching (in fact, that income has disappeared into a "secret" account that she doesn't know that I know she has, so its never been part of our budget and the gas costs to get there have been sucked out of our budget, as well).


Not really an HR. There are two women who are in charge of things and I know how to reach them. It's a very close-knit community that will probably explode when they discover there's a same-sex affair taking place.


I've been reading it. It's a lot to digest all at once.



When I talked to a lawyer in February he said not to leave the house unless she got a restraining order against me. He said it could appear to be "abandonment" of the children.

Last night we had a tiff because she posted something on facebook and I posted along with it. She said I was "turning it to be about me" and I explained that I was trying to be supportive of what she said and didn't intend to shift focus toward me at all.

We were in bed, lights off, I was trying to connect with her. She was still angry, having spent most of the evening away from me (we had maybe 5 minutes before bedtime).

As I was talking, she kept interrupting saying, "I don't want to talk!" I did say a few things that I hope she heard. I said that her withholding affection was abusive behavior. I said that I have a need to receive her affection.

She threatened to go upstairs and sleep with our daughter if I didn't stop talking. I said, "I'm not going to stop talking, so you might as well go." She paused and said, "I'm comfortable. I don't want to go upstairs."

Then she said she didn't want to hear anything other than specific apologies for specific behavior from me. I responded that I had already given her those apologies and that she had said she didn't want to hear any more apologies (these were previous discussions over the last 4 months).

She was going back and forth in her demands - on the one hand castigating me for posting on her page and on the other telling me I had an "attitude" when I said I would not post on her page anymore. Then I pointed out to her that I've stopped texting her, emailing her, liking her posts, or calling her during the day because she had given me grief about each of those things. She was very quiet then. I ended the conversation by saying, "I love you." She did not respond.

I had asked her if we could touch (snuggle) before all this erupted and she said, "If you want." I had said to her previously (in a letter and verbally) that I would not touch her unless I had a positive response form her - neutral and negative responses and I wouldn't touch her. (I did that because she accused me of "manipulating her with her love language of touch"). So, I asked again, if we could touch and she responded with "I don't care." So we spent the night with me on my side of the bed and her on hers.

This morning, when I went to work, we hugged - but I didn't try to kiss her. I held her for 30 seconds (I counted). She didn't pull away - but she didn't lean into it, either. I looked her in the eyes and said, "I love you." I turned and opened the door, started to exit and she said, "I love you, too." There was enough of a pause that I know she thought about it and it wasn't "by wrote" - especially when she deliberately avoids telling me sometimes.

Our counselors have said she "takes a long time to process what she's heard" - maybe some of what I said the night before got through. I don't know.

I talked to another friend last night (when seeking support) who told me that she was against me getting involved in marathons because I was "just trying to come between me [my wife] and the other woman" - yet she had told me that she didn't get into marathons because of the other woman. My wife claimed that she got into the marathons because of another friend - but I know this is a lie. She has done a lot of things just because the other woman does them recently - books to read, shows to watch, activities to participate in - that are uncharacteristic for her.

She has a "secret" bank account - and doesn't know that I have access to it.

I have some very specific questions:

1) Should I cut off her phone? This is where she makes contact with the other woman through voice, text, email and facebook. At this point, I have access to the call logs and can see how much time and how many texts she is sharing - if I cut it off, she could get another phone and I would no longer have access.

2) When we reach Plan B (because I can't imagine Plan A working, to be honest) should I transfer the money from her secret account into the joint account?

3) When should I separate finances - different credit cards, different bank accounts, etc.?

4) How do I see my kids if we hit Plan B if I'm breaking off contact with her? Our youngest has trouble being away from her for more than a few hours. He is still nursing and she is adamant about him not using a bottle. (The nursing is more of an emotional connection than a food source, but he doesn't handle time away from her without that emotional connection very well.)

5) What should I be asking about that I probably don't know to ask?

Very busy today so I can't read this long post. But I will address this:

"Yes, but Facebook has a new policy that if you are not a friend of the person that the message goes into a hole that doesn't inform you that you have received it - you have to go and look in that hole specifically to see what messages you've received from people you don't know. The only way to send a message to someone that you don't have as a friend is to make a friend request of them and include the message in the friend request."

You don't have to do any of that and I strongly recommend that you go read my exposure thread. All you do is send the PM and pay the $1 fee and they put it into the persons regular mailbox.

"As I was talking, she kept interrupting saying, "I don't want to talk!" I did say a few things that I hope she heard. I said that her withholding affection was abusive behavior. I said that I have a need to receive her affection. "

Forcing your wife to listen to her is abusive and needs to stop. STOP trying to educate your wife. All you do is push her away more when you do that.

Don't cut off her phone. Don't worry about plan b. You are months away from plan b, if at all.

"Last night we had a tiff because she posted something on facebook and I posted along with it. She said I was "turning it to be about me" and I explained that I was trying to be supportive of what she said and didn't intend to shift focus toward me at all. "

This is a very ineffective way of resolving a problem. Your wife told you she doesn't want you to do this. So just stop it. Don't defend it. What matters is it bothered her and you should avoid bothering her.

She said she would listen. When the said, "Stop talking!" I shut up. (Except that I said, "Okay. I love you.")



My point was that she complained about my post, I explained my reasoning, but said, "I'll stop posting on your page. I'm sorry." Then she got mad at me for saying that I wouldn't post on her page anymore.

"IShe said she would listen. When the said, "Stop talking!" I shut up. (Except that I said, "Okay. I love you.") "

Now you are changing your story because you said earlier that:

"As I was talking, she kept interrupting saying, "I don't want to talk!" I did say a few things that I hope she heard. I said that her withholding affection was abusive behavior. I said that I have a need to receive her affection. "

You didn't shut up at all.

Instead of arguing and defending the why (which is really irrelevant) just tell her you will stop. AND THEN STOP. What matters is that a) it bothers her and b) you will stop. She didn't tell you to stop posting on her page, she wanted you to stop doing what you were doing.

The key is that you should not be arguing with her or trying to educate her.

Don't. This is a lovebuster.

Okay, firstly, she has said several times "When I say 'I don't want to talk' I'm still willing to listen." I respected her boundaries. It may not have been obvious to you with my short description, but I respected her boundaries.

Secondly, how should I have responded when she hit me with anger about my post? She has said, "I don't want you to apologize!" So, I can't say, "Oh, I'm sorry." I thought saying, "That wasn't my intention, I was trying to support you." Was not defensive or a "love buster".

If I say nothing, then it sounds like I'm ignoring or discounting her.

So what should I say when she attacks me and complains about something?

Her: I'm pissed off that you did X!
Me: *silence*

Her (later to her friends): He doesn't listen to me! He ignores me!


Her: I'm pissed off that you did X!
Me: Okay.

Her (later to her friends): He discounted what I said!


Her: I'm pissed off that you did X!
Me: I'm sorry.
Her: I don't want to hear your apologies!


Actual conversation:
Her: I'm pissed off that you posted on my facebook page and made it all about you!
Me: That wasn't my intention. I was trying to support you by agreeing with your post. I'll stop posting on your page.
Her: I didn't say not to post on my page! I hate that attitude!
Me: *Silence*


I'm castigated whether I answer or not. I'm castigated whether I agree to stop posting on her page (which she asked me) or not (which she claimed she didn't ask me).

Should I just stop talking to her and interacting with her at all?

I no longer call her during the day from work - because she complained that I was interrupting her day.

I no longer text her unless she texts me first because she either ignores the texts (she has a reputation for responding to everyone's texts immediately, btw) or she complains that I interrupt her day.

I no longer email her because she never responds and complains that I make her email notification go off and interrupts her day.

I no longer like her facebook and runkeeper posts because she complains that I make her notifications go off and interrupts her day.

She has filled our evenings with so many activities that we seldom have more than 30 minutes to spend time together - and the kids are always there, so it's not one-on-one at all.

What should I do?

Your whole post is focused on figuring out the right response to her. But even having these back and forths destroys marriages. There is no right response. It's like nuclear war. The only correct strategy is to not play.

For now, she will rant and rave and castigate you no matter what. However, if you follow the plan here, you stand a good chance of saving your marriage, and eventually turning this around. The plan is going to involve not having these back and forths and debates. She will be upset, but that does not mean you are following a wrong strategy.

I suggest sticking to the first step of the plan here. Don't get hung up on your WW's reaction to it.

Okay. So....

The plan.

I'm gathering my support, gathering contact information, reading the book, preparing to expose.

Then what?

When she tells you to stop, you need to stop. I don't see that you respected her request at all and just like to argue. When someone argues and nitpicks like you have here, they usually do the same at home. It is a waste of my time and it is wrecking your marriage.

Just stop it.

Then sit back and wait for the affair for crumble. You can bide your time at that point.

p.s. as soon as you finish Survivng an Affair, I would strongly recommend you jump to Lovebusters. I suspect you are doing a lot of things that you may not even realize are causing major problems for you.

I have been looking at articles on the site and decided to root out what caused my wife to be open to the affair and this is the start of my thinking process. I'm posting this because I'm open to commentary (or else I'd keep it to myself...)

Causes of the affair:
� Too much time devoted to other activities (2nd job, hobbies)
� Emotional abandonment (too much time invested elsewhere)
� Lack of affection / sex (no energy/time to devote)
� Not involved enough with the kids (too much time invested elsewhere)
I was gone 3-4 weekends a month, leaving her with the kids alone. I was working extra hours during the week to pay for half days off on Friday to make it to my weekend work.
When home in the evenings, I ignored her and her needs for affection and sex.
I was tired while driving home and pushed her away instead of taking her calls. I often ignored or ended her calls quickly while working and didn�t call her in the evenings when I was away.

She felt lonely, abandoned, left to tend the house and kids alone and in desperate need for friendship, companionship, love and affection.

You got it! But you need to add this at the top of that list:

Wife has inappropriate boundaries with people outside of the marriage. If she had not allowed someone outside of the marriage to meet her EN's she would not have had an affair.

If Item #1 is not changed, it won't matter what you do, because she will have more affairs. All the need meeting in the world cannot overcome that.

My wife has a friend who knows that I've complained about the relationship she has with the other woman - and has said to her, "I'll always support you, no matter what evidence he shows me." She thinks she's "being a good friend" to my wife - but is significantly enabling the affair.

Should I directly address this supporting friend when I expose? ("You may think you're being a "good friend" by encouraging her association with the other woman, but you're only enabling this extra-marital affair to continue to wreak havoc on our family.")

Should they receive the exposure message?

Does this so-called "friend" have a husband?

Actually, I would send that "friend" an exposure letter asking for her help. To friends and family, you will want to send something like this:


I would even shorten that up if you can. Whatever you do, when you send out exposure letters, keep them short and sweet. Writing long letters is never a good idea. In fact, writing long letters or posts is almost always a bad idea because most people won't read them. All you do is lose your audience when people have to pick through endless superfluous words.

The friend purports to support my wife and encourage her. She says she is "strongly against" extra-marital affairs - but she participates in the friendship with the other woman. The other woman is playing a huge sympathy card in that her husband has made threats of violence (deadly violence) against her (and against my wife and me and our children - but they seem to forget about those threats).

The woman is the wife of a politician in our community - and I've considered telling her that if she continues to enable the affair it will eventually come out and harm her husband's political aspirations.

The other woman's influence in this other friend's life seems to be making her more dissatisfied with her husband, as my wife has told me that recently she's started complaining about him.

In my mind, the other woman is a poisonous, infectious wretch who poisons every woman she meets against her husband.

Is she getting into the affair zone? Well, based on my recent reading (this site and Surviving an Affair), quite possibly. Would she become involved with another woman? That's harder to predict. She's staunchly against same-sex relationships. But, if that's just another moral conviction and it's easy to break down the moral barriers to have an affair, why not those barriers, too?

Have you completed your exposure?

I am still gathering information. I'm holding out till after the weekend. There are several key players that I need to communicate with that I can't get their contact info until this coming weekend.

I have modified the suggested letter a little bit. I would like your input:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx and I have had some marriage troubles. She has ended counseling and refuses to return, which has saddened my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a girlfriend � xxxxx xxxxx, who resides in xxxxxx. She is also married and has young children. My wife wants to carry on her affair without my interference and has made accusations against me to garner support and sympathy so that she can continue the affair while you focus your attention on my faults.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

Xxxx, the husband of Xxxx, has threatened to kill my wife, to kill me, to kill our children and to kill Xxxx if they continue to communicate � and still my wife insists on maintaining 15+ hours of contact weekly with Xxxx. (I have the proof of my statements if anyone needs to see them.) My wife asked me not to file orders of protection against Xxxx and Xxxx because she didn�t want this affair to come to light. (Xxxx has had a previous relationship with another woman named Xxxx and has admitted that she is bisexual and is in love with my wife.)

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage. By encouraging her friendship and association with Xxxx, you are enabling the affair � and you bear that guilt before God.
Our marriage can survive and recover from this affair � but first the affair, the friendship and the association with Xxx must end. Only then can our healing begin.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

Here is another bit that I've written to help pull my thoughts together. Again, I appreciate feedback. I don't know that I'll ever send or read this to my wife - but I wanted to pull my thoughts together.

Requirements to restore our marriage:
There can be no contact with Xxxx � ever, at all. The friendship and association is over � forever. If we must move or join different organizations or find new sets of friends, then that is what must be done.
There can be no secrets. No hidden accounts. No hidden activities. No secret accounts. Everything must be open to each other. Full accountability to each other.
Boundaries must be established to prevent this from happening again. Boundaries with Xxxx have failed in the past and are still failing today. We must both establish boundaries that keep others out of our marriage bond. Any friendship that disparages our relationship or one another must be ended.
Time must be spent with one another. We must devote our time and attention to each other and to our family. Our marriage and our family are the most important priorities in our lives.
Toward this end, I would suggest that we read some books together that will help us draw nearer to God and nearer to one another. I suggest that we meet with the same counselor � but separately � so that we can communicate with a third party who can hear both sides of things and can help us to restore our relationship.
We can recapture and rekindle our love and our intimacy with each other � but we must start with a clean slate and write a new love and a new relationship.
This is a healthy, loving, devoted marriage. Anything less is not.
We � each of us � deserve this kind of loving, devoted relationship and our children deserve to see parents who display this love, affection and devotion for one another.

I can only see the contacts on the other woman's facebook page who we have in common. I don't know of any means to see her family and close friends that I don't know. Any suggestions?

(I'm hurting really badly right now. I imagine that this action is going to drive my wife away from me forever. She has accused me of being controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive - and shared that with her friends. She is going to use this exposure as "proof" that I'm all she claims.

I don't want a divorce.

I don't want to lose her.

I don't ever want to date anyone else.

I don't ever want to be with anyone else.

Some slight changes above, but otherwise a great letter!!

Hosea, I will post the MB checklist that is in Survivng an Affair. You DO have this book, right? Your list is good, except the "counseling" part. You need to work on saving your marriage and forgo the "counseling" for another lifetime. WE can help you restore your marriage using the MB principles. Don't mess up your chances with a "counselor."

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

You will be just fine. You are headed to divorce NOW because of the ongoing affair. Exposure is no guarantee but it gives your best chance at recovery. Just expect her to be furious and make a multitude of threats when you interfere with her affair. It will blow over and you will be fine.

Don't be scared. We will be here for you.

Try looking for family members on her husbands or children's facebook pages.

Okay, answers to questions above:

I have Surviving the Affair and I'm on chapter 4.

My counselor today agreed that the affair has to end before the marriage can heal - but thought full exposure was "extreme". She thought that my wife could respond with "how can I ever trust you if you did this to me?"

I am facing some doubts and need to check with a few points...

1) In Sept - Dec 2011, they had one makeout session with nipple play and two other kissing sessions. They admitted to a sexual attraction. My wife admitted that she fantasized about the other woman while she and I had sex.

2) My wife has since said that she "isn't bisexual" and "isn't attracted to women" and that she was "just confused". She has tried to assure me that they have only a "sisterly affection" for one another now.

3) I recognize the signs of an emotional affair - and it's with someone who she formerly had a physical affair with - is it still an affair that needs to be exposed? (I think that it is, but I'm dealing with self-doubt and fear and need reassurance and feedback.)


Lastly, I have researched the kids pages tonight and found nothing that indicates grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. I'm back to square one that the only way I know how to reach the family of the other woman is to crash their church service. I'm bold enough to do it.

I talked to my former pastor tonight and he leans toward the full exposure as well - but wanted me to double check about crashing the church service and saying, "This is a Matthew 18 situation. I have issues with Xxxx who is having an affair with my wife and her husband, Xxxxx, who knows about it and has attempted to seduce my wife as well. I need the church to step up and deal with your members to keep them away from my wife and family."

(Yes, I'm bold enough to walk into a church service, to interrupt the preacher and do that - I might take some "backup" though...)

[EDIT] If I crash the service, should I have copies of my exposure letter printed out to leave for them to read?

Should I include the other woman's children in the exposure? Should I include the teenage friends of our children who are also friends with the other woman and her children - or only the adults (some of these people may not appreciate something sexual being mentioned to their under 18 kids)?

Hosea,

As a bit of a diversion I was wondering if you could weigh in on something I noticed about my W, and does your W act similarly?

When a particular female friend phones my W exhibits very sexual body language primping hair, touching breasts, crotch and butt, moves away from me to another room. This body language is not exhibited with other female friends. I don't know if this should bother me.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes, that is sometimes what a fogged out, infuriated wayward will say. Try not to laugh! When I was a practicing alcoholic, I said those very words to my husband when he took the car keys away from me when I was drunk. But did my outraged reaction invalidate his gesture? Of course not.

Your WS will respond with much, much worse than that, though. Expect a reaction much like a crackhead who gets his crack pipe taken away. I would show your counselor Dr. Harley's material on the subject so she can educate herself. Since she is not familiar with the dynamics of infidelity, she should probably withhold judgment until she understands it.


It is a sexual affair, and yes, it should be exposed. Your wife would be considered "bi-sexual." She can call herself a baloney sandwich if she wants; its all the same. It is just semantics.



What about the yellow pages? Google?


I can see his point. I would crash the service as a last resort because you don't want to be a freak show. But keep in mind that you need to a) do this VERY SOON and b) do it all in the same 48 period so it hits them like a tsunami.

I would not bring up the fact that the husband tried to seduce your wife too. Your goal is to expose the affair. Don't muddy the waters with more issues.


I would stick to only the OW's kids and leave any other kids out of it.

Hosea,

Ultimately you should get a polygraph for your WW, as you can't live the rest of your life with a woman who is lying to you.

I really can't imaging how anyone can stop at kissing and then continue as sisters for years.

God Bless
Gamma

And I realize you can't see the long view because you have never been through this to the other side [and neither has your counselor, btw] but the exposure will usually kill the fog because it kills the affair. When the fog is worn off we have had MANY waywards actually THANK their spouses for exposure because it served to pull them out of the dark hole.

I'm afraid I'm in the "fog" too - all I can see is my wife leaving me. This will destroy her reputation - and I promised her that I would not destroy her reputation but would work to protect it.

Yes, I know that was enabling, now - but it was still a promise that I made.

Ultimately, a reputation is not as important as a marriage, I see that.

Do you have any "best guesses" on how long we'll face the anger and withdrawal before there are moves toward reconciliation?

At this point, I've had zero affection (but plenty of sex) - except for the night before last, where she showed me some affection before we had sex. I'm starved for affection and, truth be told, I'm seriously in danger of looking for it in the arms of someone else. I've been avoiding all contact with other women, even supposed "innocent hugs of support". (I've literally blocked the hug and said, "I know you mean well, but I'm starved for affection and extremely weak right now and I don't need any kind of temptation. Thank you for your support, but please don't hug me.")

Gamma,
My wife has never been one to display sexual queues - and if she wants to talk with her friends, she immediately vacates the room and seeks privacy (she's even sat in the black car under a blazing sun when it was 90 degrees out, ostensibly "cleaning" the vehicle, to talk on the phone).

I can't see most of her communication, however. Most of her calls take place during the day while I work - but she does text and facebook message with the other woman while we sit in bed relaxing before sleep. We normally read, check Facebook, surf the web, etc. while in bed for an hour or so before sleep. She'll often facebook chat or text with the other woman while we're together - but I've never notices sexual queues from her - though occasionally she'll spontaneously initiate sex with me.

From reading messages back and forth between them back in February, I know that they both encourage each other to initiate sex with the husbands. Her claims are that they are both "encouraging their marriages" together. And, yes, I've seen them say things like, "Go and seduce your husband" in their messages.

I've also seen them share "This is how he made me climax...." and give lurid, specific details to one another, as well. (Which I've taken as "training manuals" for each other - so their first sexual encounter is an informed one, rather than a fumbling "first try".)

But she is destroying her OWN reputation with her adultery. You won't be destroying anything except for her fantasy. You are telling the truth, not destroying her reputation. People EARN their good reputations.


But it was not a promise you should have made. Affairs should always be exposed. This will give you support and help blow up the affair. People who want to have a good reputation do what it takes to EARN it.


Your marriage will survive her anger, but it won't survive her affair.


It depends on the person and the marriage. Remember that exposure is the first "weapon" in your arsenal against her affair. It's not a guarantee that your marriage will be saved, but it's very effective at ending the affair. And ending the affair is only the first step toward recovery.


I recommend you simply block any hugs, or go for a little "side hug," and don't tell people it's a temptation to you and that you're starved for affection. This tactic may lead you down the wrong road, even with your good intentions. Just block the hugs.

My wife has never been a very sexual creature. It takes a lot of work to "work her up" - but once excited, she's been very open to lots of things. I used to call her "bi-willing" because she had zero interest in other women - until she was aroused and then she was "willing" to think about it.

I know that sexual attraction and interest is not a black/white thing - it is a spectrum of desire. I also think my wife has huge psychological inhibitions in many areas and her bisexuality is one of them. She is totally embarrassed at the idea that anyone would think she has any kind of interest or attraction to another woman. (And I truly believe that she doesn't have "attraction" or "interest" - until she's in a place where she feels a safe, emotional bond and she's aroused - and then she's "open" to it.)

I also realize that when you're in love with someone, no one else appeals to you. Since she's in love with the other woman, no other woman appeals to her - so her statement "I'm not attracted to other women" is true - but she *is* attracted to the other woman.


I don't know their names. I've tried to find them, but I've hit brick walls. The other woman has been very good at keeping the walls around her. One thing that my wife told me is that the other woman is "very private" - and now I think I know why. She's living a secret life and she's been doing it for a long, long time.


If I crash the service, I have to time the exposure very carefully. I can't do it this weekend - it will have to be next weekend (which would actually be better for me because I'll need a solid day to get all the messages sent out - otherwise, I need to take a vacation day).

Should I tell any trusted confidantes of my intention to expose? Or should I simply expose?

Just expose without any warning to anyone. Just expose and do it all at once, so the exposure is massive.

I came up with an idea to get the other woman's family information from her church without crashing the service - but it means I have to reveal some details to a trusted friend. This friend could attend the church, pull aside the leadership and tell them that he has a friend who needs some wise counsel and can he have their contact information...

Thoughts?

Another question:

I'm reading Surviving An Affair and one of the exceptions to exposure involves physical violence.

The other woman's husband has threatened violence against my wife, my children, myself - and against the other woman. He has been diagnosed as bi-polar and I know (from my wife) that he's off his meds. He aimed a loaded gun at his wife just two weeks ago and threatened to kill her if she didn't end her relationship with my wife.

I'm thinking that I need to take out orders of protection against him for my family - but what about the other woman. I don't want her blood on my hands. Should I have the paperwork for an order of protection provided to her on the day that I expose? Should I have a trusted confidante give her a little notice (a couple hours is what I was thinking) so she can pull together some things and get to safety?

Or just wash my hands of it and if she is murdered by her husband, the responsibility was hers?

Another question:

If we get to Plan B - do I move out? I'm certain that she won't leave willingly. And she can't run to the other woman's arms - because she is either going to still be with her husband or living in a women's shelter.

Sure, it's cart-before-the-horse thinking, but I like to think and plan ahead.

you're not going to get to plan b and if you do, you will not be moving out. do not leave the home. period.

it's pretty standard fair for waywards to pull the 'abuse' claim. "oh! my spouse is abusive which is why i have to cheat and why we can never let anyone know about the cheating!!'

any info that comes from your wife is not to be trusted.

sounds like this other husband wants the affair to end too. he can be an ally for you.

i get it that you're struggling with fear. you keep putting off exposure and coming up with questions to see if you can somehow sidestep it. do it ASAP. get it over with.

it will blow this thing out of the water. you've been living this hell for way too long...years and years. put a stop to it NOW.

ps. your marriage might not recover. but YOU can recover and that's super important. you've been cowed for so long by your out of control, entitled cheating wife that you don't even know which way is up.

you might even discover that exposure is empowering for YOU. finally you can air this dirty, filthy love/family-killing secret.

Are there Marriage Builder counselors that can help us get through the withdrawal when we hit that stage? (I'm just now reading about it.)

... why are you talking to her about exposure? Of course she is going to have all sorts of stories to discourage exposure "He made a pass at me, He's Bi-polar, he's violent."

An OOP won't hurt, but you expose. Period. Her stories are excuses to keep the crack pipe (her affair partner) close. Exposure kills affairs.

You really got to get a hold of your fear. Think about how your kids are depending on your to steer this thing out of the ditch. Stop thinking so much and take action. Like today. SERIOUSLY.

All this hemming and hawing is more disease eating into your family. Don't believe the drama that's coming through your WW and whatever she says about her ho. It's all made up.

You might want to start contemplating life without your wife. You have to get to a place where just a small part of you is okay with that possibility. Otherwise you will keep cowering in the corner instead of taking a battle ax to this mess.

I don't udnerstand. Are you saying he doesn't know about the affair? I thought he already knew.

And I would just point out that the OW is not worried about it and she knows him better than you.

Have you PERSONALLY witnessed violent intentions from this man?

That is way, way long ahead. So don't worry abotu that now.

We can help you.

You may never need Plan B.

In the beginning, three years ago, he knew. Then it "went underground" as far as he was concerned. It "resurfaced" (in his understanding) recently - and two weeks ago he threatened to kill the other woman if she didn't end it. (He had threatened to kill my wife, me and our kids in 2012 - and, apparently, he's afraid of me and hates me.)

The only thing I'm waiting on at this point is getting the contact information for the other woman's family - which requires me (or my agent) going to her church. I'm going to try to make that happen this Sunday.

I talked to my HR rep today (who knows a lot of the situation) and it was suggested that I call in sick for two days when I expose - so that I can have the time required to get all the emails out without being interrupted. I'm considering doing it late at night when most of the friend and family will be sleeping - so they all wake up to the whole thing exposed in the morning.

Should I send an exposure letter to the other woman?

I would certainly make sure he knows the affair is back on. He has to know this.


Good deal!


I like your idea and appreciate the fact that you are thinking strategically. It is clear you are thinking this all through. I would much rather have 10 overly proactive guys than one complacent guy!


I wouldn't bother with her for now. She will get the letter soon enough when you expose.

Hosea,

Thank You for your response to my question.

Do you really know that the OWH is crazy or is this what the OW says. The OW may be "rewriting history" to make her H look bad. This is a common offensive tactic waywards use to provide a justification for their affairs.

And if OWH is depressed do you thing this affair and the one his WW had prior to this one might be the cause. You have to imagine the OWH is suffering everything you are suffering along with a 2nd affair.

Was the OWs prior female affair partner also married, if so you might do that husband a favor and let him know of this crime against his marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

He made these threats to your face?

As I mentioned, my wife and the other woman teach at a small, private school together. When I expose, I was thinking of telling the two administrators that the other woman's husband has made threats of violence against his wife and my wife and children - and that I am pursuing legal protections for my children and that they need to be aware that orders of protection may be filed to prevent the other woman's husband from coming near my wife and children.

My purpose in doing that is to raise the threat level from "this is a little marriage spat that we can ignore" to "you mean we have to be concerned about violence in our school?!"

My intention is for the administrators to inform my wife and the other woman that their services are no longer required. Unfortunately, the consequences probably mean that our children will no longer be welcome at that school - so I'm going to be the "bad guy" in the eyes of my kids.

Thoughts?

Did HE tell you that in person?

When he threatened my wife and kids, he said to me, "I could solve this whole thing with my 44." I said, "Is that a threat?" He said, "It's more of a promise." I said again, "Are you threatening me?" He said, "You, your wife, your kids." Then I got into his face and said, "You better come at me from behind, like a coward - or you'll have to get past me to hurt my family." He backed away and some of the wind came out of his sails and he said, "Hey, I'm just upset. I don't know what I'm saying." That was in 2012. Then he didn't speak to me since.

My wife didn't want me to know that he threated the other woman. She has hidden the fact from me - and it filtered down to me from another source. She still refuses to tell me anything about it. I overheard her and her friends trying to find shelters for the other woman and there is no way they knew I was able to hear them.

I'm confident that these are not made-up and that there is real danger from the other woman's husband.

However, the danger is in the continuing relationship - if the two women would stay away from each other, there would be no trigger to his lunacy.

I had a breakthrough in my research. I found the other woman's mom, sisters, and adult nieces/nephews - as well as the brother of the other woman's husband. I also found one of the "elders" at her church. Her father, however, is a technophobe and I'm not finding anything on him. However, I might have his name - and I'm thinking of investing in one of those "reverse lookup" companies that gives you the details of someone for $20 a month subscription.

Hosea,

It's nice to see someone who trusts the value of the MB plans and is willing to work them to their fullest - they are the ones with the best possibility of recovering their marriages.

You are ABSOLUTELY right. That is the real danger. And be aware that he is probably not violent at all. News of adultery is the worst news a person can get. It can be as devastating as the death of a child, except it is done purposely. So some people react in irrational ways at first.

You do have this man at the top of your exposure list, right?

Very proud of how you are approaching this, Hosea.

I'm using free services to locate names of family associated with the other woman and her husband - but some of them are not on Facebook (or are blocked from me - the other woman blocked all her friends from me, for instance, I only see friends we have in common).

I'm looking at "BeenVerified" and "Intellius" for researching - does anyone have recommendations for other means of locating people's contact info?

If you can see any pictures on the OW's facebook page, look at the names who have commented or liked them. That can sometimes lead you to other prospects. If you can find just one of her family members, you can likely find others from their pages. Have you searched her husbands or children's names on facebook?

Can you get into your wifes facebook page?

I can't get into my wife's account - I can look at her page. However, the other woman makes a point not to comment on her page.

I found the family names and accounts on facebook through one of her kids accounts. However, her father - a key contact - is a technophobe. I may have found him on BeenVerified - but I have to spend $25 - $60 (depending on how long I want the rights 1 month to 6 months) to see the details. Small price to pay, honestly. I just want to be sure I get the most bang for the buck.

I do have a friend who is a friend of the other woman who might be able to view her page and I'm trying to get them to meet me today or tomorrow. Then I can see the full list of friends on her page.

The other woman's husband doesn't use facebook often (has a page that hasn't been updated in nearly a year), won't respond to my emails or my voicemails and doesn't have a direct line at the office. I may have to mail him something at his office (to prevent its interception).

I like your idea of mailing something to him at the office and then maybe you can call him to follow up. I would include your phone # [and your wife's] in your letter so he can call you.

I find that very odd that he wouldn't respond to your attempts to contct him. How do you explain that? You and him should be allies and it is in his best interest to collaborate with you. Why do you think he would view you as an enemy? Is it because the OW has spun the story to him?

He doesn't believe there is an affair, does he?

You did save the evidence, right?

I think he believes that I am encouraging the affair. He may even believe that I'm orchestrating it to pull his wife into a triad relationship. (This is based on various snippets of conversation with my wife over the years - he has never told me anything, nor I him - I also wonder if this is part of a story that they have spun together to keep he and I from becoming allies.)

He had a ton of evidence 2 years ago - even a hand written letter from my wife apologizing.

I am going to try to enlist his alliance....

The evidence is all in email - and a few journal entries that I still have.

It would be great if you could speak to him because I suspect he has been brainwashed with lies about you.


I expect that she and the OW will explain away their affair and spin you as the crazy kook so people won't believe you. For that reason, I would open up a website and post the evidence. When you do the exposure, you can send along the link so people can see for themselves. That neutralizes their ability to lie about you.

If you check out my exposure thread, read the post by rainysweet. She gives instructions on how to set up a free website for this purpose. If that doesn't work, you could set up a special facebook page and upload the evidence.

And when you expose, I would not get lost in the weeds with too many details. Just state outright that "my wife and OW have been having an affair for X years. I found the evidence, which can be seen at this link: ________ and WW admitted her adultery. The affair continues to this day and she refuses to end it."

Please post your letter before you send it so we can give you feedback.

All of my evidence is from 2 1/2 years ago. She can claim with her friends that "stuff happened and we've repented of it, forgiven each other and moved on - he's paranoid, jealous and delusional."

I snooped a little tonight - she changed her phone password, but keyed it in when she didn't know I could see it and I looked at her messages.

Aside from some mild flirtation (comments that could be taken innocently) there is nothing to support an ongoing affair. Yes, the emotional affair is still there. She's still telling her friends all about my faults and failings - and even misrepresenting things that happened to garner their support and her appearance of being a victim.

However, there's no current evidence that I could find. Lots of requests to talk voice - so she could just be avoiding saying anything that could be subpoenaed by keeping it all in voice.

I did discover that the counselor that she's seeing has urged her to leave me - and she said she won't. And the friend that I mentioned before is encouraging her to stand up for herself against me, to demand more time away from me and both she and the affair partner mocked me back and forth with my wife (who seemed to be eating it up).

I also found it interesting that my wife indicated to the other woman that I was "wanted some" on the nights where my wife pushed for sex (because I've been following the advice of a counselor not to ask for or initiate sex for two weeks and we're still in that time frame). She made it seem like I was asking for it, but she's the one who aggressively initiated it.

I'm afraid I'm second-guessing myself again...

I just finished chapter 11 of Surviving an Affair. Still wondering about showing affection (reaching for her hand, hugs, kisses, initiating sex, sending cards, poetry, leaving notes, sending flowers, daily text expressing appreciation, emails expressiong admiration, etc.) - should I do those things?

You do have evidence of continued contact, though. So you can post the direct evidence from 2 yrs ago along with the evidence of the continued contact. Only a moron would believe that an affair transformed into a "friendship." That is like an alcoholic changing the names of his drinks to "business drinks" and proclaiming himself as sober. If your wife and her OW want to claim such silliness, let them make fools of themselves making excuses. And that is exactly what it will sound like to any rational person: an excuse.


Of course.


This is why we don't encourage counseling. This is the typical outcome.


Yes! Try to open up a friendly conversation with her via text, send her love notes and do things she likes. And whatever you do, don't lovebust her!

Should the exposure go to *all* my wife's facebook friends? Some of them may see this as an opportunity to move in...

And some of them are people that she never talks to, but knew in high-school.

Should I be selective?

Here is the letter I am currently working on:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of WS and me. I am saddened to have discovered that she has been carrying on an affair with a girlfriend � OW, who resides in Location since September 2011. OW is also married and has young children.

WS refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my wife, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

OWH, the husband of OW, has threatened to kill my wife, to kill me, to kill our children and to kill OW if they continue to communicate � and still WS insists on maintaining 15+ hours weekly of voice contact, 2-3 weekly shopping trips and long weekly bike rides with OW � in addition to school field trips together. My wife asked me not to file orders of protection against OWH and OW because she didn�t want this affair to come to light. (OW has had a previous relationship with another woman named M and has admitted that she is bisexual and is in love with WS.)

I have the proof of my statements if anyone needs to see them.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with WS to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

All of WS�s friends who know about it (except one) have told her to end the relationship. To Bad Friend, I just want to remind you that by encouraging her friendship and association with OW, you are enabling the affair � and you bear that guilt before God.

Our marriage can survive and recover from this affair � but first the affair, the friendship and the association with OW must end. Only then can our healing begin.

I would appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

oh no, don't send to her facebook contacts. Facebook exposure is for the affair partner. Just contact her closest friends and family. It would be nice if you could CALL the closest members, like her mom, dad, sister and then email the rest of them.

I really like that!! Good job, Hosea!

So when are you exposing?

AH! I could've made a big mistake there! I was thinking I should expose to all my wife's friends.

Let me be sure I understand:

Expose to all the other woman's friends and family (including common friends she shares with my wife).

Expose to my wife's family and close friends.

This basically means that everyone they work with together in the small school will be notified - including the administration and some of the parents.

As for when the exposure is happening? I'm still digging into the other woman's facebook. I finally found someone who is a friend of hers who is sympathetic to my cause and we're meeting this weekend to look at her page and get all her friends.

I'm also lacking her father's contact info - but I think I found her mom and siblings.

Once I have all my ducks in a row and have a solid understanding of exactly what I'm doing, I'll post that for a final review and then ...

... tsunami.

Yep!


Yep!


I would focus on exposing to the OW's family, and close friends. You will want to send a separate letter to the administration.


You are very clever and creative. That is what it takes!!


Perfect.


You are doing an excellent job of being strategic and methodical. This approach will garner the greatest impact for your efforts!

As far as close friends, it will have to be your best guess.

Should I send a different letter to those who I know she has "forewarned" (since I threatened to tell people back in February, before I found this site)? She has also been claiming that I'm abusive with them (and I've been doing some lovebusting, so she has grounds for those claims).

I was thinking of something along the lines of:

"In order to hide the affair, my wife has been making accusations that I've been controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive to distract attention. I do not claim to be perfect, and I'm working on my issues. However, we cannot repair, restore and rebuild our relationship as long as the affair continues. Please use your influence to encourage my wife to end the affair with the other woman and focus on rebuilding and restoring our relationship and marriage."

You know, I wouldn't put that in there. The reason is because if your wife uses that as an excuse for her affair, people will recognize that she is making excuses. I would stick to your original letter and keep it as simple as possible.

The proof that I have is a facebook download (which amounts to a text file) and some emails that they both sent me when the affair began and at various times during the affair. Posting that kind of stuff on a website isn't going to be "proof" in people's eyes because it could've been written by me. However, I could forward the emails - which means they come from the email server (a public one) that I can't control.

I also have a few items written in my wife's hand that talk about how fearful she is of the verse "be sure your sins will find you out" in reference to their relationship.

I'm thinking of avoiding the website idea and just forwarding emails if people want to see them.

Lastly, I know she has at least three people in her "corner" - a friend who sent her a message that "no matter what proof he could offer, I'll never believe him" and has been encouraging her to stand up for herself against me, to draw boundaries, to deceive me (even pointing out that Rahab deceived to keep the spies safe and was blessed for it) and she's the one who encouraged my wife to visit a lawyer. This is the "bad friend" who I plan to mention by name in my exposure letter. She is also the one who is encouraging my wife and the other woman to talk by having 3-way phone conversations with them - yet claims she is against same-sex relationships and extra-marital affairs. Her husband is also in politics and is about to run again - which gives me some leverage with her.

The other friend is ... psychotic. Not only is she unhinged, but her ex-husband was hitting on my wife a couple weeks ago and my wife said she "didn't care" if the friend gave her phone number to him.

And the third friend is her "abuse counselor" who has actively encouraged my wife to leave me - and who my wife is seeing without admitting it to me (I've found her call logs to her and she tells the kids she's going to see the counselor when she leaves). The counselor is using a book called "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft - that basically says that only men can abuse and women can't abuse men. His book is poison to marriages. It's all his opinion. He mentions "studies" - but cites none of them and I've spoken to several counselors and psychologists who say that his conclusions are unsupported by anyone else in the field. He also has a huge drive to sell books, to sell his counseling program and to sell his way of doing things.

I suspect her dad, mom and siblings will back her - simply because her dad doesn't like me, her mom must stand with her daughter (and she had an affair that broke up their marriage), her brother is pagan and currently in an open / triad relationship and her sister - though very religious - will disbelieve that her sister could be involved in anything like this (even with proof).

I suspect her boss will back her - because she's been telling my wife that I'm bipolar and not to be trusted.

As for the rest? I really don't know. I think there will be some who, having already been coached by my wife that I'm "jealous and abusive" will just automatically side with her.

The same-sex attraction thing will impact the other woman's family, however. Especially since some of them already know about it through an admission she made a year or two ago.

I'm not anticipating a lot of support toward me, to be honest. And I'm fully expecting my wife to leave me when I expose.

But, as a dear friend said, "If you risk what you have now, you're risking very little. It's not like you're risking a great marriage. And if it works, you might get your great marriage back."

A big part of the reason these people don't support you is because they do not know the truth. They have been brainwashed with lies about you. This is why you need to upload your evidence to a website. You can take screen shots of the emails and everything else. Even a court of law accepts copies of emails VERSUS a forwarded email. [when I was an IM I was asked to fax direct copies to the lawyer - he could not accept a forwarded email]

You really need to do this because most people will not go to the trouble of asking for evidence if they have already been persuaded that you are satan incarnate/delusional. They are just not going to bother.

HOWEVER, if you post the evidence, some will click on it and report the veracity to others who have been brainwashed against you. They can be your advocates.

These 2 women have been lying about their relationship for a long time and you need to pull out all the stops to convince others of the truth because you need their support. You will not get support from all, not even many people. But you must make every effort to bring people to the side of your marriage.


I agree with everything except that your wife will leave you. If she leaves, I expect her to be back within a few days. She will leave to try and punish you and put you in your place. When it doesn't work, she will come back because she will miss her home.

I expect in lieu of "leaving" she'll choose to sleep in the guest room and give me the silent treatment. She has been withholding affection for over 4 months since I confronted her about the affair last time - and I threatened to leave her if she didn't end the relationship. Before that she was begging me to stay and even said, "I can have you both! She's just a friend! Love me unconditionally!" But after I saw the lawyer, she refused to be affectionate toward me.

Occasionally she would hold my hand, snuggle - we even had one kissing session. However, once she read that book by Lundy Bancroft and started seeing the abuse counselor, all of that was shut down - and she even started rejecting my overtures of affection.

I'll need to get a website setup. Can you give me the link you mentioned before?

I'm going to scan the hand-written stuff I have from her.

How much of the evidence should I show? Just the "nasty" stuff? or the whole conversation and how it evolved over time?

She refuses to rank her emotional needs. However, based on the things she's asked for recently - some of it while she's mad and complaining at me, I put together this list.

Family Commitment (She has chided me for isolating myself from the kids and her - even though she said she feels like I follow her around the house and "guard" her.)

Financial Support (She's been harping on our debt and our budget and complaining to others about my spending.)

Honesty and Openness (This is here simply because she is demanding that I be completely honest about everything - even though she gets mad at me when she hears something she doesn't like.)

Sexual Fulfillment (If things were "normal" between us, this would be lower, but she's been very demanding of sexual activity - even though there is no emotion during sex.)

Affection (Her love language is touch and the only reason this is so low is due to her more vocal complaints about the other needs - and her claiming that I'm "manipulating [her] through touch" because I was being romantic and affectionate.

Admiration (She has always thrived on compliments and anything that even hints at negativity hurts her deeply.)

Conversation (I really wanted to put this higher, because she's always talking to me about everything mundane - but with her more strident and vocal complaints, I moved it lower.)

Domestic Support (She has been commenting that she appreciates that I help out around the house more - and had previously complained about me not doing much around the house - it's only so low because she hasn't vocalized complaints recently.)

Recreational Companionship (She has been pushing me away and wanting to have more independence and more freedom from me. She's been avoiding me. Although it's recently getting better, it is currently a low priority with her - the whole reason things started is because she said I "wasn't there for her" - but now she doesn't want me there.)

Physical Attractiveness (She has told me - and it really hurts to know this - that she doesn't find me physically attractive. I'm not the body type, facial type or hair color that appeals to her - but that she loves me because of the "chemistry" she feels with me. I can't tell you how much it hurts to know my wife doesn't find me attractive and that there's nothing I can do to change that - but she says it doesn't matter because it's not my looks that she cares about.)

Go find rainysweets post on my exposure thread. She give instructions on how to set up a free website.

Show enough evidence to get the message across but be sure and post photos of the recent phone call logs to show the affair still continues. Don't post the evolution. They need to be able to get the idea at a glance.

Is it vindictive of me that I really want to shut off her phone? Or put a block against the other woman's phone number?

Don't worry about her emotional needs for now. If you get an opportunity after killing the affair you will only be focussing on the top 4 intimate emotional needs anyway. And she will find you physically attractive when she is in love with you.

I wouldn't do that for a couple of reasons. It won't stop her from talking to the OW and it will just fan the already fanned flames. It doesn't help you strategically at a time when you are trying to appear to be a safe, attractive alternative when her affair crumbles.

I found the post. I'll start building the page. It'll take a little time. But, I can't get the other woman's friends list till this weekend anyway...

Hosea,

One other advantage of exposure is that it removes the burden the betrayed spouse has of keeping their wayward spouses secret.

It also equalizes the reverse punishment where the betrayed spouse suffers alone and in silence, while the wayward appears to go on with their life. I've seen that so many times in my life.

You referred to a prior affair OW had does OWH or the prior affair OWH know about that one?

God Bless
Gamma

Hosea,

Another point is that exposure will create conflict between OW and your WW, in the same way that criminals rat each other out at the police station. At first they might go to each other for support, but will feel watched and ashamed.

God Bless
Gamma

Some history...

My wife and I considered the possibility of including another woman in our relationship for several years. We had one relationship that lasted a few months back in 2002. There was another relationship in 2009. When her friendship with the other woman kicked off in 2011, she revealed that information to the other woman. That's when the other woman revealed that she and her husband had experienced something similar.

They had a woman from another country come and live with them because she had a bad breakup. The other woman and this foreign woman developed a deeply intimate relationship that included kissing, showering together, intimate caresses and sucking on nipples - but claimed nothing went beyond that. In fact, there was a huge curiosity expressed in the private messages between my wife and the other woman when the other woman discovered that my wife had more experience.

At some point, the other woman's husband also initiated a relationship with the foreign woman and confessed his love for her. He came home one night to find the two of them in bed and inviting him to join them - but he backed out and resentment built up in him over the situation.

This other woman is now back in her home country and I only know her first name.

In June of last year, the other woman's husband attempted an exposure by telling some common friends about his wife's relationship with my wife - but it was not a "full exposure". The other woman subsequently wrote a letter to the 3 friends he exposed it to and my wife sent me a copy. Here is an excerpt:


(I replaced names with [Other Woman] and [My Wife] and [Me] and [Other Woman's Husband].)

You've had two "swinging" relationships in your marriage?

If you've had two swinging events in your marriage, that changes the history that we've understood here, and possibly the advice we would have given you. Did your wife's relationship with this current woman start through swinging? Did you condone the relationship when it started?

What appears to have happened is that you were happy for your wife to have sex with other women in the past, as long as this was a threesome, fulfilling sexual needs and fantasies for you. However, either with or without your consent, your wife got involved with this current OW. Unfortunately for you, she became emotionally entangled and excluded you from the relationship. That might be when you "refused to show any affection to her for 7 weeks unless she ended her relationship with the other woman. She looked at it as a divorce situation. I confronted her after the 7 weeks and said I was leaving - but by then, she didn't care."

Your first post spoke of your wife "continually struggling with a desire for a relationship with" this woman and her husband, suggesting that she wanted to enter a threesome with them. It does not appear that she wanted you to be part of that.

It seems to me that your own decision to defile your marriage resulted in a gigantic mess, with your wife falling for OW (which often happens in these situations) and now you cannot stop the train wreck.

It seems we should have looked into her claims of your being "emotionally abusive" more seriously.

"25 years of a life together" is rather underselling it, don't you think?

Didn't you think the swinging was pertinent information that we should have had from the start?

Here's a good clip. The BH let his WW swing and now their marriage is destroyed.
Radio clip on Swinging
Segment #2

Another one.
Radio Clip on Swinging

Tell us what you think.

Did your Marriage Counselor know that the two of you had several episodes of engaging in Threesomes?

Why does she feel that any counselor would just point out that she is wrong?

You seemseem to have been a willing co-conspirator to have actively participated in those threesomes.

How does that align with your chosen Username and your Vows to God and your Wife?

Was this current OW one of the women involved in a threesome with you?

Has your W been involved in a threesome with the OW and her current Husband?

LTL

Let me give you the MB definition of marriage - Marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care between a man and a woman. Do you see how your marriage is missing the mark? You have shown extraordinary lack of care by coercing your wife into these plural relationships. It is no wonder she is having an affair. That other person no doubt shows more true care than you do.

BTW, proper exposure INCLUDES exposure of your open marriage. Unless you are willing to tell everyone who could hold both of you accountable, you are never going to establish a healthy marriage.

Wow, no wonder she doesn't respect your marriage vows. If you can willingly invite a third party into your marriage bed, then what is wrong with her having someone else on the side? Pot, meet kettle.

You both have very poor boundaries.

Hosea,

In spite of what you did before you have an active affair to kill now, keep you eyes on that.

However did you apologize to your W for allowing, and participating perhaps, in this violation of your marriage vows?

God Bless
Gamma

No. It started as a friendship. However, I have recently found a message she sent that told someone she considered that the other woman�s husband would divorce her and she would be �available as a second wife to us� (which was news to me, I�d never considered her an �option�).

When the friendship first started, I was not strident about it ending, I was far too gentle � but I did not condone it. We always had rules that said we would not even consider a divorced woman � let alone one in an active marriage.



I don�t disagree. I am at fault for this. It is my responsibility.


I don�t deny that I have been emotionally abusive nor that I�m the cause of this predicament.


At first posting, I didn�t. As we discussed more and as I read more, I became more convinced I needed to discuss it. And then I posted it.

Yes. I�ve been brutally honest with all my counselors � including my pastors and longtime family friends. I own up to my mistakes and my failings.



She didn�t say, but I believe it�s because she is convicted of the Holy Spirit that what she�s doing with the other woman is wrong but she�s so enmeshed in the friendship that she doesn�t want to end it. Also, all her friends that know about the relationship have counseled her to end it (except one).


Yes, I was. I was wrong. I know that now.


I repented of this lifestyle in January 2013.

No. She is married. Married women were *off limits*. Divorced women were off limits. We had very specific rules. We actually deluded ourselves into thinking we were following scripture.


No. She finds him repulsive.


I�m content with that. I know that my sins must also be exposed. I�m prepared to accept the consequences. I�m responsible for it.


Agreed.


Yes. Extensively. Specifically.

How so?

It's a very long story. It involved talking with a bunch of different people. Suffice to say that I don't want to repeat any of it in case I were to lead someone else astray.

I was wrong. We were wrong. I repented of it. It's over.

Now I have to deal with the consequences and the fallout.

Here on Marriage Builders? I seriously doubt that.
Your matter-of-fact, "it happened. Deal with it", unrepentant air makes me wonder if this whole thread is a joke.

Convenient excuse.

You had the common sense to know some time ago that this was pertinent information for your counsellors to have, yet you did not think it pertinent for us to know until today. What was that?

You "own up" to your mistakes and failings, but you did not own up to us for some time, and you only admitted that it was a mistake and a failing when that was dragged out of you. Re-read the post in which you confessed and see if the swinging is described as a mistake or a failing.

I am repentant. When I first posted, I expected to share all the details, but the conversation moved all over the place. Nothing was "dragged out of me" - I volunteered the information.

I know my failings, I know my mistakes, I know my sins. I don't deny any of it.

What does my admission change in your guidance and suggestion on what to do?

Since I'm still gathering the information I need to expose, I haven't taken any action yet - what next? Do I re-write my letters? Do I change how I expose? Do I expose details about my failings, my mistakes, my sins?

I am not making excuses, I just know that there are many people who come to online forums who are not "whole hearted believers" and I don't want to be a stumbling block for anyone. If you want to send me a private message and I'll give you the details of why we thought we were acting scripturally, I'm happy to answer those questions.

When I said:

I was typing with a contrite spirit and a humble heart.

I was wrong. We were wrong. I repented of it. It's over.

I recognize the wrongness of it. I recognize that we both participated in it. I have turned away from it. It no longer has any draw or appeal to me. I want nothing to do with it, ever again.

You can't read emotion in the written word.

I am not excusing the behavior at all. I am admitting it was wrong.

Now....


What changes to your previous advice do you suggest now that you have this information?

Hosea,

Just treat your infidelity as seriously as your WWs, Your cheating on your WW does not cancel out her cheating on you, it just doubles the pain.

If any of the OW you were previously involved with were "single" but had boyfriends or fiancees who did not know, you need to make amends for harming them.

Have you exposed to your children yet? And does the OW see your children or act like a family member?

God Bless
Gamma

Private messaging has been disabled on this forum because it is too dangerous for married men and women to be discussing such things privately. There is a higher danger from that than anyone on marriage builders ever being led astray by your misinterpretation of scripture.

We never got involved with a woman who had a man in her life. There were only two women we were ever close to. Nothing since 2009.

The kids know about the polygamous relationships and they know that we're not interested in that path and consider it sin.

The other woman sees our children at school functions and field trips and sometimes when my wife trains or shops with her. Her kids are friends of our kids - though not close friends.

When the relationship was new (back in late 2011) and before it was revealed to have become an affair, the kids referred to each of the moms as "aunt" (our kids called the other woman aunt and her kids called my wife aunt).

Hosea,

The other woman sees our children at school functions and field trips and sometimes when my wife trains or shops with her. Her kids are friends of our kids - though not close friends.....(our kids called the other woman aunt and her kids called my wife aunt).

Almost before you separate your WW from OW you need to separate your kids from this relationship or rather this sickness. Your kids have to have NC as well.

When other mans kids are with your kids they are part of the affair in a sense, leaving OM completely abandoned, which may be part of whats fueling his rage.

God Bless
Gamma

Did you listen to these?

Yes, I listened.

I'm still curious about any different advice that would be offered. So far I've heard and read the same advice regardless of my involvement in creating the environment that was accepting of the affair.

Is there some different advice or different wording to suggest to my exposure letters that I posted?

My vote is to go forward as planned. The goal here is to bust up her affair and save your marriage. Since you have repented of your own affairs, it is not an issue today. That being said, you should realize that you invited this adultery into your marriage. Swinging is adultery, period. You set the stage here. And hopefully it can be brought back from the dead.

Is this the letter you're asking about?

What about writing Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Yes.

I'll be on the radio program. I'm being interviewed tomorrow. I don't know if it's live or recorded.

It is both live and recorded. It replays until the next new show. You can listen to it by following the link on the homepage at www.marriagebuilders.com, or by downloading the free mobile app on your smartphone.

Btw: I'm Mark. If you listen to the program, Dr. Harley does not suggest full-exposure and instead recommended avoiding love busters and winning back her heart. I found that quite interesting.

He said you lacked sufficient current evidence to expose. If you had the evidence to prove a current affair, the advice would have been to expose.

Oh no. I heard the entire show. He told you to expose the affair but get good evidence first. Did you get the evidence?

Her phone (texts), email, facebook are all locked out. I have her call logs - but they only prove time spent (and she also talked about getting a pre-paid phone recently).

Short of hiring a PI, I don't know how to find any proof.

All proof that I have is from 3 years ago. They've been "squeaky clean" since 2012.

Have you tried planting a VAR in her car? If she is going over to OW's house so often she is probably calling her on the phone in the car on the way there.

Hosea,

Her phone (texts), email, facebook are all locked out. I have her call logs - but they only prove time spent (and she also talked about getting a pre-paid phone recently).

You realize your W is still a WW?

Did you ever strongly suggest to the OW that she stay away from your WW and that any contact is an assault on your children and yourself.

God Bless
Gamma

I would hire a PI. It usually doesn't take this long for a BS to get the evidence so I would step it up since you haven't been successful. Most pi's can get everything you need in 2 days.

Have you gone through the operation investigate forum for solutions? If she has an iPhone there are ways to get her texts.

Here's the full show for 7-09-14.
Radio Clip of Hosea1968's Show

I'm looking for software that can retrieve texts, facebook chat and email from her phone - but I don't know the password to her phone. It's an Android RAZR. She is on it *constantly*.

I have the call and text logs, but I can't see the content of the messages or the facebook chats. I also can't see the email use and I don't know who she is facebook chatting with (I mean, I know, but I don't *know* - you know?).

I am looking at "Recovery Stick" and "Xtractr" - both claim to be able to access the details of the phone with a physical connection, even if the password is not known.

Right now, I couldn't sneak $180 out of our budget if I tried, so I'll have to save up.

And finding a PI? I'm working on that. But, again, the money situation...

Open to ideas...

Is there a PC at home that you could put a keylogger on? I think one of those would set you back $20-40.

Can you check for the fingertip smears on the phone and try to guess the password or look over her shoulder?

Is the phone through verizon? Is so, check out:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758251#Post2758251

Her phone is with AT&T.

She is very careful not to let me look over her shoulder. I have caught her a few times - but she changes the password on a weekly basis. She's very paranoid because I got into her phone once before and now she is exceedingly careful.

She has also not been getting close to me at all. Before, she was sitting snuggled against me and I looked over her shoulder. Now, she won't get that close or won't use her phone around me.

She's also avoiding using the computers anymore. She does everything on her phone.

Did you do this?

When she goes to the OW's house, she runs or bikes. They are workout partners, so there's always a different set of clothes, specific gear that they carry, etc.

I thought of bugging her purse - but she doesn't take it very often.

She does talk on the phone in the car - but most of the time she spends talking while she's in the house with the kids and she's wandering from room-to-room. (My kids have provided me a lot of information - but a lot of her conversation is "Ah huh. Yes. Yeah. Okay. No. Absolutely." I've eavesdropped and she is doing a lot of listening and very little talking.

It is her texts and her Facebook messages that I need to read - and if there was some way to record her phone conversations.

Since she uses her phone as he exercise tool, I can't even get a micro-bug for it, because it's in and out of the case several times a day and it would be discovered/dislodged.

I basically need some kind of FBI/NSA/CIA equipment - and I certainly can't afford that level of surveillance.

When the meet up, they are biking, swimming, running, working out or going to the library - none of which are easy to surveil.

[Right now, I'm really hurting. It's been nearly six months that she has frozen me out. For awhile we seemed to be getting better, but then she completely shut off emotionally. She's reaching out to more and more people who are against our relationship and advising her to leave me. She is telling them secrets and betraying my trust. She has gone so far as to re-characterize events in our life to make me look like a bad guy - when just a short time before all this started, she would have said the exact opposite.

I have to admit that I'm really weak right now.

I need someone to love me. I need to hear that I'm admired and appreciated. I need hugs. I need affection.

I'm completely ripe for an affair - even to the point of contemplating it. Finding someone online to meet these emotional needs that are screaming at me.

Please pray for me. Please pray for us. I am so lonely and hurt right now. I'm still lost. I'm still alone. My strength is failing.

I hesitate to post this. I don't want to admit to my weakness. I don't want to admit to my pain. I don't want to influence others - but I really need some support.]

You are hurting because you have been floundering in the dark for so long.

I think it is past time for her phone to have a dreadful, fatal accident. Then you buy her a new one, download Flexispy and start killing the affair.

Please don't make the mistake of sinking to a waywards level. It will make things much worse for you and your kids. Focus your hurt and anger to fighting this affair!

In fact, you could buy a phone now and have it ready. Or find one of your old phones and have it loaded up and ready to go when her current phone is kaput.

The flexispy can also track passwords to Facebook, etc so you can grab them for use later.

I came across this article and realized that my wife is displaying at least 16 of the 21 signs - and three more are "maybe". I can only honestly say that she's not displaying two of them....

I read this article and realized that Becky is displaying at least 16 of these 21 signs that the relationship is doomed. .

**EDIT**

1) Resentment - Yes

2) Disrespect - Yes

3) Contempt - Yes

4) Lying - Yes

5) Mistrust - Yes

6) Badmouthing - Yes

7) Distancing - Yes

8) Demanding proofs of love - Maybe

9) Public Humiliation - Yes

10) Obsession with another person - Yes

11) Obsession with pornography - No

12) Emotional Infidelity - Yes

13) Inability to Resolve Conflict - Yes

14) Sabotage - Yes

15) Addictive Behaviors - Maybe

16) Unhealthy Attachments - Yes

17) Threats and emotional blackmail - Yes

18) Comparisons and ratings - Maybe

19) Indifference - Yes

20) Withdrawal of Affection - Yes

21) Physical Violence - No


I feel like there's no hope at all. Last night she was cold, distant, unemotional and looking at her call log, she was on the phone with two of her friends who are strongly against the survival of our relationship.

When she came to bed last night, it was like an enemy walked into our bedroom. She was cold, distant and her attitude and demeanor seethed with contempt.

Is there any hope?

Sir, I encourage you to just focus on following Dr. Harley's recommendations and programs.
There are many different articles and plans out on the Internet, but you need to stick to one plan.
It's like in Business...you make a plan and stick with it.

I run long distance and short distance races. Last weekend, I ran a 5k and was 5th place! Many get into running, sometimes training for a marathon or shorter race but they don't stick with a plan. The ones that usually finish a marathon or even a 5k are those who have a plan and follow it.

I think you should just focus on reading Dr. Harley's articles, books and listen to the Radio Show daily for insight on your situation.

Yeah? So what? We all know waywards are messed up in the head. Doesn't change the advice you have been given over the last 2 months that you have yet to follow. Or the advice Dr Harley himself gave you.

Get the evidence- expose!- plan A

If you continue to do nothing but [censored]-foot around and try to understand your wayward wife, then you are right, there is no hope.

Sir, hire a PI.
They probably have sex after their "workouts" and he can get proof for exposure.
Focus on getting this evidence so you can expose.

Radio Clip of Hosea1968's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3

Have you followed up with Dr. Harley since your call?

Affair phones are very common. They are cheap and you can't install spyware on it even if you had access to it.
At this point, I feel a PI is the best route for you to go.

Please don't go down the route of having your own affair. My WH did this when I had an affair. Went and found someone online because like you wanted to feel loved and appreciated. Then when I finally came out of the fog it was too late and his affair was so entrenched and now they are living together and buying a house and divorcing me. It seriously isn't worth it.

Before you know it you're entrenched in an affair of your own, WW will be out of hers and you'll be in your own fog.

It's not my WH's fault I had my affair but I wish he had exposed me and brought me out of the fog. I wouldn't have thanked him at the time but I sure as would have been thankful later.

You need to expose the affair. You need to do this for her. One day she will be glad you did.

She file don Monday. I received the paperwork today - first I knew of it. She's been telling me every day since Monday that she loves me. I don't understand or get what's going on.

Should I expose now? I've been trying to find evidence more recent than three years ago.

Sir, this was posted to you 4 months ago:

Instead of listening to the advice, you decided to follow your own custom plan.

Do you want to end this affair and save your marriage?

Then you better get on the train because it's pulling out of the station and in a few months you'll be in the courtroom

When your wife has been in an affair for years, and you have not followed the advice on how to end the affair, and now *as predicted* she has filed for divorce, how can you possibly say you don't understand what's going on?

Hosea, you need to get your head out of the sand. Your unwillingness to expose has likely cost you your marriage.

You should have exposed a long long time ago, but since you didn't, yes, do it now.

Hosea,

You have been watching your WW living a secret second life with this OW with whom she had a sexual affair, for what is it now two or three years. Even if WW is divorcing you need to make things right, for the years of emotional abandonment you have put up with.

Do you kids know that this OW is not an Auntie type figure, but someone who has destroyed their family? Do you want to see OW living with your WW flaunting it in your face.

Get your butt to the school at which they teach together, to the churches they attend and expose like mad. Find all of the OWs relatives and carpet bomb them with exposure. If you feel guilty about doing so, given your part in creating this monster, make your own confession.

God Bless
Gamma

I was on yesterday's show.

My lawyer is strongly advising me against exposure - saying it'll ruin my case. Right now, I'm very concerned about losing all access to my children.

Yes, I listened to other advice. Looking back, I see that I should've exposed.

However, if I do so now, I jeopardize custody with my children.

How many marriages has your Divorce Attorney saved from infidelity?

Do you feel his advice has ANY chance at all of reconciling your marriage, or just less legal work for him to handle a non-contested divorce?

LTL

It is not against the law to tell the truth in any country.

Your lawyer is lazy and wants to throw you under a bus to facilitate an easy agreement instead of working to protect you.

I mean what does he suggest you tell people? That the anti marriage pixies broke you up?

Depend upon it ,she's got her story worked out about you and it will be illegally false and defamatory.

However judging by the amount of spine you've showed do far she could get away with murder on your watch.

It may even be too late to gain her respect. You've let her go to disaster and shown yourself too scared to intervene.

Most women want a husband who can step up.

It's tough to do, but you must take control back and grow a spine.

LTL

Why would this even come up with your lawyer?

Good gravy you didn't ask his permission did you?

It beggars belief that you've allowed the affair to continue just so long as she threw you the odd scrap. Now your wife and her lover are going to tear your family into pieces and youre willing to let your children suffer so long as you get more scraps?

You are asking permission to tell people? To stop it?

Such a thing simply never occurred to me when I exposed. I didn't consider it my lawyer's business what I told people about the marriage!

These forums are full of people who told the people in their lives what was going on and asked for help. No one lost access to their kids for telling the truth.

Isn't it explicitly protected by your constitution over there too!


There is no possible way that doing such a simple thing as telling the truth can lose you access to your children.

That is ridiculous. You can't lose your children for telling truth in a free country. Continually making excuses has got you to this terrible place. Please wake up.

That's complete nonsense.
I, and hundreds of other fathers on these forums, have exposed to our children.
Dr. Harley would not advocate exposure if it endangered your rights

Why are you posting on MB101 vs Surviving an Affair forum?

This is a big red flag of BS denial/fog.

There is a restraining order that prevents me from communicating with my wife through any medium - including third parties. I cannot send out emails asking people to encourage her to leave the affair.

That is one reason why my lawyer has said not to expose it.

I sent another email to Dr. Harley asking for more specific advice - no response yet.

Merged threads and please stick to one thread.

What's the restraining order for?

She has claimed that I'm abusive. She's reading a book called "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft. In that book it has a whole plan on how to divorce someone and one of the things it says is that if a woman can't prove abuse, to file a restraining order, claim her life is in danger as a way of establishing evidence against him. Her claim becomes evidence.

I am not a danger to her. I've been seeing several counselors who have signed statements to that effect. She is being led astray by several friends who are strongly anti-men and pushing this "abusive" agenda.

Another thing the book says is that abusive men will use coercion to convince a woman and manipulate her to get back under their control - so she asked that there be a provision that I cannot communicate with her directly or through a third party.

I am not abusive. I am seeing an abuse counselor to ensure that it is not just my word saying that, but that an expert has evaluated me and that I am under continual evaluation.

Anyway, the restraining order is in place for her - but the one she requested for the kids was not granted. She fled to a women's shelter (again, advice from the book says to do that to lend credence to the claim).

She has been telling all of our common friends for the last six months that she loves me and she wants to restore our marriage, but just doesn't know how. She has been placating everyone who has suggested things she can do. All the while she has been planning these actions. (The papers she filed have financial numbers on them from May - indicating when she filled out paperwork.)

The whole last 5 months that she has been claiming that she loves me and wants to restore our marriage she has been calculating to divorce me.

This is why exposure should have been done. To prevent her stitching you up. Why she's had months to prepare for your downfall and you have just allowed it all and nodded it through!

The restraining order prevents you telling people the truth or simply asking people to contact her?

It is very important that you have a good attorney in this matter.
You would be in a different boat today if you would have first exposed as told to.

You should be able to get the restraining order removed since there is no evidence of danger

I met with the husband of the other woman and have encouraged him to expose his wife. I don't know if he'll do it - but he at least talked to me.

Hosea is too afraid to expose on his own.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of Hosea1968's call

I have been thrust into Phase B by my wife. What should I be doing to encourage reconciliation?

Can you post on your original thread please?

POSTED 11-12-14

Hosea,

Do you have any intention of following MB based advise?
You were told to expose months ago but refused to.

Listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show every day.

I realize that I screwed up and I would probably just be here anyway if I had exposed. Yes, I made a [huge] mistake.

Now I need to know what to do next...

Expose this now by YOURSELF.

Follow the templates you were advised to use in the Exposure 101 link.

Post your letter and who you intend to contact here 1st and TAKE the veterans advice.

Answer all questions promptly and don't beat around the bush anymore.

LTL

I cannot legally do that. I am forbidden - by threat of law - to have "any communication to or about" and "either directly or indirectly or through a third party".

She has an order of protection against me that prevents me from saying anything. If I make a public statement like that, I'll go to jail.

Asking for support for your marriage while telling the truth is not illegal.

I definitely would love to go to trial and have the opportunity to present Sworn and Notarized Affidavits, take Depositions and make various Discovery Motions, including financial records and Interogetories and have witnesses testify under Oath.

What's your next excuse?

You asked what you Should Do Next.

You are not willing to do it and never have been.

Why Ask?

LTL

Waywards do not initiate Plan B. So you are not in Plan B unless it is your own plan.

Hosea,

If you are legally barred from exposing your wife's lesbian affair
I suggest you write to Dr. Harley and ask for instruction.

Oh, at a minimum I would make sure a friend posted the OW on Cheaterville