I discovered my husband's 4 year, long distance affair just a few days ago. He ended it quickly with her. We deleted his secret email account with her however, a few days later he rcvd an email in his main account from her work email.

The email states she's in the hospital following an altercation. Its written from her account as though by a coworker with very little detail and no signature/name of the supposed writer. It also includes details regarding her recent "difficulty to communicate" with my husband and suggests "I'm letting you know because I know she wouldn't want you to worry."

My husband and I believe it's a ploy for attention (though he's surprised bc he doesn't think she'd do such a thing.). And we've also discuss led that if it is real, it has nothing to do with him anyways.

I understand that she's upset that he chose his wife over her and hope this is the farthest she will go to contact him but it makes me nervous.

Thoughts?

Did your husband write a No Contact letter?
Ignore the email. Change all email addresses and phone numbers and delete any social networking profiles. Make it impossible for her to locate you.

Was the affair exposed?

Here is what has to happen before you can even begin to fix the marriage:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I discovered love letters in our basement ;( 4 years of written contact including 4 secret meetings in which she flew here.

She doesn't know our home address but does no his work address which is where she sent the secret letters.

He called her on the phone (I listened to his end) and told her it was over and there would be no contact.

The list above says you should tell family/ friends? Why?

Is she married? Does she have a facebook page?

She is not married. She has Facebook. In fact, 4 years ago, I discovered their very early relationship of sexy conversation on Facebook. He deleted her but simply went underground with the relationship ;(

The reason is because the more people who know, the more people to hold your husband accountable and to give your marriage support. It is the most important first step in recovery.

Does she have a boyfriend? Are you certain she is not married?

Thanks, MelodyLane.

My sister knows because she is my confidant. And honestly I don't want my parents to know. I want to fix this mess and I don't want things to be horribly awkward when we are all together. They love him deeply.

He will need to shutdown his Facebook account and block it.

They need to know. It will give him the accountability he needs to prevent this from ever happening again. He needs accountability and you need support.

I am certain she is not married however, we don't know if she has other lovers. She lives on the other side of the country and is very driven to havr men in her life. I doubt she went 4 years with only my husband as her partner given their distance. But I don't know if she has a boyfriend.

Do you think the hospital thing is an act? Should we care?

It would be a huge mistake to not tell your family. You need their support. Your parents should be at the top of your list since this really does affect them directly. Your husband can lessen the awkwardness by going to them with his proposal for recovery.

And most of all, you need your parents support. Affairs should never be hidden. Doing so harms everyone.

I will consider it, Melody, but I'm not sure I AM ready for everyone to know. I'm
In a lot of pain and just want normalcy returned.

I do see your point though. My sister has a lot she wants to say to him

What about our 10 year old child; does he need to know?

It is a clever ruse to get your husband to call her. And he will talk to her eventually if you don't cut off that email account. She will keep trying. You should care very much if you are serious about protecting your marriage.

No, you shouldn't. Ignore it and block all forms of communication.

Yes, he deserves to know.

Your pain will lessen with the support of your family. And absolutely your 10 year old should know.

Don't hide this affair. There is no legitimate cause to hide his affair. That does not help anyone.

Thank you for confirming that this is likely a ruse. We are making our way through his accounts.

Can I just say, this really sucks?

I had no idea. No clue.

Normalcy will not return unless you follow very specific steps to recover. Any deviation from the path will haunt you later.

We understand. but you are in the right place.

I have wanted to tell my mom. I know she'd be there for me. But I hate the idea of everyone hating him ;(

He is a big boy. He can help them get over it by making amends to you. Don't protect him. You need your family at this time, April!

He will be more motivated to change if he also has to answer to his parents and your parents. I would expect you to tell me if my son behaved like such low down trash. I would want to know because I care about my son.

How did they come into contact in the first place?

Are there ever any occasions on which he is away from home?

She was a girl friend in his 20's. During our marriage he apparently felt like I wasn't giving him enough affection. And he had lost his dream-job. So he sought out Facebook friends and old contacts. They started talking and confiding and sex came up. It spiraled from there.

I'm having a hard time understanding. We love each other enough to put this behind us/cut ties to her yet not enough that this would happen in the first place? Ugh.

If she knows his work address (and phone number), then she has been contacting him at work since his "NC" telephone call; you can count on that.

Expect her to fly over to see at his workplace as soon as she gets out of the hospital. He will take a break from work and go and have coffee with her, and eventually agree to see her again. If she is booked into a nearby hotel he will probably take a few hours off and visit her there for sex. All you'll know about it is that he's in a meeting, or at lunch, or on a training course in another building and uncontactable at his desk that day. He can be contacted on his mobile phone, but unless you've enabled the GPS tracker on the phone, you won't know where he is speaking from.

Please don't be naive and believe that the NC telephone call was the end of this saga. It really isn't. OW will have been contacting H at work already since the call, and she will keep contacting him, and because he cares about her he will allow her to contact him. A 4-year affair does not die with one phone call unless your H immediately removes himself from the place where contact happens - his work - which he has not done.

You don't need to ask me how I know; I'm sure you can guess how.

Oh, you understand all too well. You are absolutely correct. You do NOT love each other enough (or rather, he does not love you enough) to put this behind him and cut ties to her. I'm sure he loves you and does not intend ever to leave you for her, but he loves her too and is addicted to the high of the affair. He will not cut this off no matter the level of your grief, or how much he loves his children, or how much he wants to stay with you.

He wants to stay with you but he wants both you and her, just as he has had for four years.

You need to assume the worse because this is not over, and you will have a nervous breakdown each time you take his word for NC and then find out that NC never happened.

I'm not saying it can't be fixed; my situation was very similar and it was eventually fixed, but not until my H eventually retired from work. It took 8 years from the first D Day to the last for that position to be reached. The final 5 years included contact every six months or so, and only by telephone, but this was still shattering for me to discover. Don't go there, please.

How old are you both, how long have you been married and how old are your kids?

Is he the only child for both of you? Has either of you been married before?

Sugarcane:

Thank you for the thoughts. I am aware that it can continue or happen again. Especially since it was so easy to hide!!

I did feel like the email helped to confirm for me that he hasn't contacted her...yet.

We deleted his secret account, blocked her on his cell, and will block her or change his email. However, I don't feel that any amount if deleting can truly stop it. If he wants it to happen, there are many ways he can hide it.

Tell your parents, siblings and children...and his parents and siblings if he has any. It will be a relief to get it out there, April, vs eating at you and feeling like you are going to explode by watching everything you say to your family. It does suck but the exposure will help you and your marriage. People will be mad at him and should be but exposure is the BEST defense you have of killing this affair. OW tend to be extremely pathetic...as witnessed by that email she sent. You nuke the affair and get the support you need...it is a win-win.

Welcome to MB

I can't imagine telling our son. He just beginning to learn about romantic relationships. This would crush him.

I think he might not contact her, but I'm certain she will contact him and he'll allow it. How do you tell someone every day for years that you love them with all your heart, and without them your world is empty, and the only reason you are not with them right now is because of your son, and then just put the phone down on them when they ring you at work? The answer is that you don't. He won't.

This is all quite pointless if you cannot monitor his work email and landline, and check whether he keeps a pre-paid phone at work to contact her. Can you do those things? Can you search through his workstation for a hidden phone? I couldn't check my H's emails because my H was in a secure job and was not allowed to log into his email off the premises, and of course, a phone call to his landline could have been made at any time. I wasn't going to be there when one was made!

I'm sorry if I'm bringing you down, but I've lived this and know that it will not stop easily; not because he contacts her but because she contacts him and he allows it. Women having affairs seem to fall in love with their affair partners in a much more obsessive, downright mentally ill fashion than men doing the same. I've noticed that if a man is dumped by the married woman he is having an affair with he might contact her a few times to see if she means it, but if she sticks to her guns, his pride won't let him beg. However, a woman will beg and pursue her married OM, threatening suicide or, as in your case, self-harming. She will keep up the pressure with emails non-stop, and will turn up at his work and sometimes even at his house, telling him that he made her love him and he cannot just abandon her now; her life is in ruins and he is responsible.

And this works.

It works either because the married man really does love her and is genuinely torn about what to do, or because he really does love her and does not want her to think he was a typical, cake-eating, dog-dirty married-man cheater.

You've got a serious problem on your hand with this woman, as you can see from the hospitalisation already. The problem is not that she'll kill herself, which she won't (and which is not your problem anyway) but that she'll keep trying to reach your H, and very soon, something that she tries will work on your husband's feelings for her.

On Dday1, my children were 6 and 8 (my boy being the eldest) and yes it sucked but I exposed. It is never a pleasant thing but it does help to get on the road to recovery...personal and/or marital. Your boy will know something is wrong. You should tell him so he doesn't create all sorts of scenarios in his head.

If he's learning about romantic relationships he should learn this lesson too...what NOT to do.

I don't have time to post more but the sooner you get the exposure over with the sooner you can start healing and rebuilding. Do not let fear drive you.

So glad that SugarCane is helping you. You have a text book nut job on your hands. Most men do not have good nut case antenna. The needy behavior makes them feel strong and manly. At least it does until they have to listen to it every day. Then it gets boring very quickly :-)

I'm another that had a nut job OW to deal with, borderline stalker, etc. I'm also another one that endured a needless false recovery because I wasn't serious enough about NC precautions the first time around. I thought doing the basics would be enough, and it wasn't.

Eventually, any WH will cave if they're sobbed at enough times. The only way for them not to cave is to make it so ZERO sobbing, pleading, or begging doesn't make it through.

Your WH will only be as serious about R as you require him to be.

Then you need to find those ways and block them. Otherwise, you are facing a few more years of this affair. It is doubtful the OW will give up.

He also needs a new phone #. Blocking her isn't enough. Even an OW at the very low end of the IQ spectrum can figure out to call from another phone, if she knows which # to call.

You both need to be totally serious about this, or it will lead to immense future suffering.

I know.

You also need to block Facebook. Have you done that?

Please don't just block her number, he needs to change ALL his contact information.

Please read this. Exposing to Children

My niece and nephew were four and five. They lost their best friends (OWs children ) because of my H's affair with my best friend.

Their reaction was more reasonable, more sane and even more caring than some grown ups. They simply said their uncle should say sorry and do better. They showed caring for him too. They also didn't see any reason why everyone shouldn't know and I caught my nephew exposing to the neighbours!

Since then, I've noticed my nephew particularly is a real little gentleman to women. Very considerate and he hates mention of cheating on the TV. It's only grown ups, usually the BS herself, who gets freaked out by the idea of telling the truth and gathering support. He's a smart kid and even thanked me for not lying 'like most grown ups'.

Compare this to my H whose fathers affairs were NEVER exposed. Secrecy and lies were normalised in his home. He had never experienced radical honesty in his home.

Going by the phrase 'difficulty communicating' I'd guess he has been talking to her at work, trying to let her down easy by saying you won't let them communicate. Soon she will wear him down. Exposure will be a wonderful, freeing intervention preventing him from being sucked back in.

If he really has his road to Damascus moment, everyone will see it and forgive him as he works hard to earn it.

A false recovery has already happened because exposure wasn't done and NC not ensured. Don't leave any weed roots in the ground this time. Burn the affair out.

Read the exposure thread on MLs signature and do a nuclear style exposure all in one day.

As you know, the second DDay hurts worse than the first. Something you would have thought impossible on DDay 1. Don't find out what a third one feels like. Don't find out that it is an illogical and obsessive addiction, that however much he wants you, he'll have this too if he can.

He can't just choose you this time and regain your trust because he already did that. This time he has to show you emails and appear more trustworthy. I'm sorry but you have to independently verify everything.

Treat it as an addiction and expose it on both sides. She has people who need to hold her to account too.

It won't hurt anywhere near as much as his parents' divorce.

At the very early time following discovery, it is nearly impossible to have any kind of perspective on things. Your husband and the OW have had years to think about what they would do when you found out. You have had only days. Dr. Harley has dealt with many thousands of cases like yours. Telling your son is the right thing to do.

You will save yourself an enormous amount of pain by listening to people here. These folks represent an wealth of experience in applying Dr. Harley's proven methods for recovery after an affair, as well as an objective perspective on your particular situation. Your WH and his OW are unprepared for you utilizing this resource. Use it to your full advantage. It will give you the edge you need to fight for your marriage

April you have been given a lot of very wise and clear instructions that I hope you take.

There a lot of people that have felt the same way that you are feeling right now. That they can deal with this internally between them and their spouse but a lot of them find out how wrong they are.

People that are in the fog need blunt instruments because they truly don't believe that they are doing anything wrong. If you didn't catch him again he would still be doing it and right now he is working on doing the minimum to keep you, in hopes that when you calm down he can continue his A.

If it is possible to keep both you and the OW without you finding out he will do it in a heart beat. He needs to be exposed so he can understand what he is doing and get the help to stop and your son has the right to know because it does affect is life and it will affect his future life.

The only person that it helps by you not sharing is him and the OW. Most wayward spouses that truly want to save their marriage welcome the exposer. But in most cases the WW spouses is too in love with OW to stop and exposer will only make it hard for them to continue so they fight exposer with very persuasive and believable statements. Some go as far as to threaten you if you expose them, that is why Dr. H recommends not telling them before you do it.

This how Paul describes Godly sorrow.

2 Corinthians 7:11(NIV)
11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern[b/], what [b]readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

From your posts it doesn't sound like that is his demeanor, the fact that you even talk about the hospital issue shows how far from over he is. If he understood how much damage he has done to you and his family and he cared he would cringe at the mention of her name.

You must expose him if you want to save your marriage, (that is of course if you want to save your marriage). Your family, he's family, and friends will help and you need the support, because by the time you are finished he will have you convinced it was your fault.

Exposure is not punishment. Exposure is not done for revenge. Exposure is actually a caring intervention done on someone who is lost in an addiction. A BS who can see past their own pain will realize that exposure is a necessary part of holding to the promise to provide extraordinary care in marriage. You have discovered that your spouse is being destroyed by an addiction. Do you think you should do nothing about it?

Is there any chance you can give us an update?

It's most worrying about your son in particular as he's quite old for exposure, and has lived for four years in the environment of an affair in which he may even have made his own discoveries.

He is also learning a lot of bad lessons about secrecy between parents and children without the truth being told.

Lots of children his age are able to figure out the truth on their own. I hope she doesn't mind me using her story, but Sugar Cane, who has already given you excellent advice, discovered her H's A YEARS after the OW's H and her children did. He did not tell SC, his own poor children or anybody else but thought he and his wife were recovering 'privately'.

He admitted he already knew when SC contacted him upon her own DDay. At that point he 'exposed' to his teenage children - but they already knew. They knew because it had been going on so long. In spite of the affair taking place in other countries on business trips, they worked it out. Heartbreakingly they hadn't said anything to their father because they were worried about him.

It's hard to hide an affair. Waywards are so hyper focused on preventing the BS finding out, they are often sloppy and forget the children are pretty smart and can figure it out too.

If YOU (the person it was being hidden from) were able to find the A, your son will soon find out too, on his own. Better he is guided than left to puzzle it out alone.

To add to what Indie says, my XH grew up in a family where his father had affairs. He presumed adultery was ok and his parents stayed married so getting a girlfriend was his default 'solution' when the stresses of three small children caused our marriage to hit some serious rocks.

Because it was a family secret, I was not alerted to the fact that this was a risk that I needed to be aware of which was a pity as adultery is highly correlated with same sex parent behaviour in childhood. So in addition to telling your son, you should also be ready to tell his spouse when the time comes.

Thank you all; I've updated in a new thread.

Thank you all for the wonderful advice.

We have made it through the first week post what you all are calling D-day?

We spent a lot of time together. Crying, discussing, bonding, and enjoying one another. My paranoia is still very high but I am feeling hopeful.

He expresses remorse and seems to be very open. He answers my questions even when he doesn't want to give the answers. He's been respectful. He has expressed relief that its out and he no longer has to lie and wonder. He has said that he's wanted out in the past but just couldn't see a way to do it.

He has expressed that this was a fantasy for him. An escape from daily life. A place for hope and dreams. He says he is surprised at how easy it is to let her go. That the decision to end it was harder than the actual letting go. Without the communication with her, he says he can feel it "bleeding out" of him. There affair was mostly written communication. He saw her 4 x in 4 years.

According to Dr Harley's website, there are times when a lover is not an addiction bc they are not in love with them. I am hoping this is the camp we are in. He hasn't once indicated that he's pining for her. Of course, I'm giving him little time to do so . Thus far, rather than depressed, he seems hopeful. It's like a weight has left him and the idea that I am willing to work on this brings light to his eyes. Of course, I am feeling very protective of myself and therefore have that little voice that warns not to take it at face value.

We have deleted, blocked, and cancelled a variety of accounts. I have access to a list of all in and outgoing calls on his cell phone as well as texts. I'm keeping tabs on his phone/iPad. I feel "bad" that it's sorta like "snooping" but I don't feel I have a choice. As much as I want to believe every word...

The last loose string is that of his work address. This is where she sends mail. The plan is for him to bring home any communications, unopened.

As far as telling family, I have not concluded what to do. I appreciate your advice and will take all of it to heart. The biggest challenge right now is not being able to discuss things within earshot of our child. We have to cover our tracks, which I don't like.

I do not think my son suspects the affair at all. My husband covered his tracks incredibly well to the point where he was truly living two, desperate lives. However, I do think my son feels a change in the air. My husband and I were having a long, quiet hug and our son asked if anything was wrong.

That said--I've heard your thoughts on this issue and ask that it be pressed no further. It's something I need to decide to do on my own time.

I appreciate all of your advice and expertise.

I'm sorry so many of you have had to go through this.

Did you listen to the clips in here from Dr. Harley?

April, I've seen this post before.

A year, two years or ten years later, the BS who posts this runs into a huge problem that could have been prevented by exposure. By ripping off the band aid and doing the sorrys and explanations at the start. Instead of having to start all over AGAIN later.

The sooner people find out (and the truth always outs) the sooner your H can mend fences and show how sorry he is. If this woman ends up dead, and her suicide note in the press two years from now, naming your H (I'm a reporter and this happens!) How will you keep it secret then?

As for claiming you know what your son knows a) you don't, can't possibly know and b) it doesn't matter. He deserves to be told the truth. Its actually more his business than yours because you can get another H, he can't get another father.

Don't recover by sneaking around. Set your entire household an example of honesty.

This exactly.

I know you want to believe your H and that you love him but you are making very serious mistakes that are only going to cause you harm in the future.

Your solution at work is to trust your H to bring you mail unopened? Really, its all on trust? I'm sorry but you are headed for a big heartbreak and as much as I want to warn you and prevent it but you seem to be adamant that you are correct and Dr. Harley who has seen tens of thousands of cases over 40 years is wrong.

Please wake up for your own sake!

I need you to explain what I can do about the mail at work? I cannot stand there and physically stop it from being delivered and he cannot quit his job. That is not an option.

We've considered asking the man that sorts the mail to return to sender any personal mail. What else can I do??

I have send this link to my husband and will discuss it with him. It is relieving to hear that it hasn't destroyed other children.

You are making several strategic mistakes here. I echo the previous posts and add the following:

Your H has been in an affair for 4 years and you are HOPING that he does not love/is not addicted to OW. For an affair to last 4 years, your H did indeed love OW. The kinds of affairs with no love are typically ONS in bars or with prostitutes.

Your H is not at all depressed because he is not worried about withdrawal because he knows he and OW can contact each other via the workplace.

AM

I hear what you are saying and would like more thoughts. How does one truly "love" someone they rarely see? I agree and have asked myself--how was it so difficult to end if he didn't "love" her? At the same time, how do you love someone you rarely have physical interaction with?

I would advise against this. Many WS will spin the story to come out unscathed. I suggest you sit down with your children, you as you only, tell them their father had a girlfriend for four years and it really hurt you very much. I told my son this: Husbands that have girlfriends are doing bad things and wives who have boyfriends are doing bad things and that behavior is unacceptable and immoral. As for the semantics of him loving her or not it really doesn't matter. Follow the MB plan of accountability. Was this a work place affair?

If the mail issue is you trusting him blindly forget about it. He should find a new job ASAP that would solve that problem.

Merged threads. Please stick to one thread.

Well, it's kinda too late re: the link. But that's ok. I will handle it accordingly.

To recap, this was an Internet affair with an ex girlfriend, across the country, from his youth. 4 years of emails, mail exchanges. During that time, they made arrangements to see each other 4x, most recently this past February.

As far as work: my husband has been seeking a new job for a long time. There are not many opportunities in our area. Quitting is not an option. He will continue looking though. Would it be reasonable to ask the mail dept. to return any personal mail?

He does not have access to a private phone there. It's a very blue-collar job with specific in-out times and breaks.

People fall in love over the internet or via email exchanges all of the time. Just communicating via email can fill the needs for conversation, affection, and even sexual fulfillment to some extent.

In addition, affairs are largely a fantasy, and daydreaming or fantasizing about the other person can actually deposit love units as if the thing being fantasized about were actually occurring. This can also create quite the contrast affect. It's hard for real life to compete with a perfect fantasy world.

In fact, this is why exposure can be so effective, because it brings reality into the fantasy.

This is exactly why you need to take extraordinary precautions this time. You need to make it impossible for her to contact him. Just blocking her, etc will not get the job done. Change email addresses, get rid of Facebook, change jobs, change phone numbers.

So long as she has a way to contact him, you can never be sure she won't.

Expose. Let OW's f&f know she is a nutcase who needs serious watching. Let your H's and your supporters contact her and tell she has zero future in their family and won't be accepted. Right now she is being left comepletely free to cause whatever havoc she chooses.

Also, what is all this 'we' business? Exposure is something you do on your own. The WS plays no part, because the addiction is usually very active (so typically he either talks you out of it or he warns the mistress) until exposure is complete.

One of my best friends, who is now 30, saw her parents break up when she was five. After Dday, her dad chose her mum, and they moved across the country to get away from a typically nutso OW. They even changed their contact details and told close family members. However they didn't expose OW on her side.

A critical mistake.

The OW showed up at the family home and left the usual 'My life is ruined without you and I love you note' on the family car. Dad found the note and decided to leave his family for this cockroach. They were married for 12 years, cheating on each other throughout, and my friend grew up with a real-life wicked stepmother.

Nobody exposed to her either. Luckily she was a clever child who listens at keyholes.

For the love of sanity - he has ALREADY shown he is addicted by taking the affair underground once before. He has shown you that this is a nicotine-style 'what my wife doesn't know won't hurt her' affair. Why would he do that, and risk getting caught a second time, if it wasn't an addiction?

Expose - let your H know you won't cover up his decision to break your heart and your child's heart for some cheap attention from a desperado. Let him know that not only have you exposed him this time, you will do it every time he makes such a serious error.

The very most important thing is that you don't lie to your child. He trusts you to tell him when his family is even slightly in danger. If dad is now OK and is now really sorry then dad will be OK with telling him so and humbly begging his pardon!!!

One BW who recently exposed to her 6yo was certain he didn't know anything about the A. Nor did he. However he said he was grateful to know it 'wasn't my fault' that Dad yelled at him whenever he interuppted him on the phone. Talking to his mistress.

However the most important reason for exposure is to watch his reaction:

If he accepts people's shock and their need for amends, if he accepts people no longer trust him and he has to earn it back = then he is on his way to recovery.

If you have even the slightest doubt about his reaction and feel that it would make him angry - then it is probably because he wants to remain secretive.







That advice refers to one-night stands. You should hope and pray that you are NOT in that camp because serial cheaters who are addicted to attention to a series of women are far tougher to recover with. They aren't addicted to a specific woman, but they are addicted to one-nighters.

Serial cheats have to work from home and be monitored 24/7. A cheat like your H simply needs NC with his OW.

Someone who fell in love unplanned, simply fell foul of a human trait to bond with people. In your case he had a pre-existing bond, which is why Dr H bans contact with former lovers.

Sorry, but:

a) You aren't paranoid - you are experienced. You've already experienced what he can do to you for her sake.
b) Blind Hope is not a plan, but there is a very good one called MB just waiting for you to get some courage and implement it.
and
c) Ask Dr H yourself. If you think this is a case that doesn't warrant exposure, get his guidance on that. You can email the radio show free.

but do keep in mind that you don't control the truth. There is a million ways this thing could become public knowledge at any time. OW could get drunk and hit the phones, calling your relatives, the workplace could find out about stolen company time - I'm afraid you don't control the truth. All you control is how you are able to manage exposure.




It's truly heartbreaking that this isn't being explained to him. You are trying to hide an elephant with a hanky and it is confusing and scary for kids. This is why we hear of so many children taking matters into their own hands and doing their own snooping.

This is dreadful. Your H doesn't get any say in the heartbreaking news you must tell your son.

You are telling your H that you trust him blindly and you will forewarn him before you do anything.

Excellent behaviour in normal circumstances but very destructive with an addict.

What do you think an addict will do if you tell him you trust him and you aren't going to be able to catch him?

The temptation you are creating for him to carry on is enormous.

I know you all don't agree, and that's fine. And maybe I shouldn't have sent it. But on the same token, if he and I are going to be completely honest and open, then I don't see why he shouldn't be privvy to the knowledge and understanding that I am. He too should know that telling our child can be a benefit to us all.

It appears that you have largely ignored the advice that you were given earlier in the thread and that you don't really understand what Dr Harley teaches about affairs and how to recover from them.

You are standing on the tracks and you are being told over and over to get off, and I can tell by what I have seen thus unfold so far on this thread that you are probably not going to be willing to listen until you get hit by the train again.

Sigh.

Let us know when you are ready to follow MB.

I'm sorry that you are not going to take that advice.

I've been through all the things that I underlined. My H never showed a drop of withdrawal, never one. That was because he wasn't in withdrawal. He stated that he was not in love with OW, although at times he had had periods of serious infatuation with her, but he was adamant on the distinction between infatuation and love. (I see no such distinction, and I don't think Dr Harley does, either.) My H said he always knew that the affair was a fantasy and an escape from everyday life and that he always knew that he wanted his marriage and would choose the marriage, once I inevitably discovered that affair and made him choose. (In other words, he knew that day would eventually come. He couldn't get away with the affair undetected forever.)

That didn't stop the sex meet-ups continuing another 16 months through another 3-4 D Days (I've lost count), and it didn't stop the phone calls and emails to his work continuing for another 5 years after the last physical contact, when I made him give up travelling.


That loose string is your undoing. You might as well forget everything else while his workplace communication remains available to them. My H brought home 3 letters sent to his work address under the same agreement as you are making, after he stopped travelling. When I began to argue that the reason the letters were continuing must be because he was continuing to talk to her at work, and was not telling her to stay the heck away from him, he simply pretended that he had told her and that all communication had ceased. However, as I said, landline and email communication continued for another 5 years.

I did not tell family or my children until the final D Day, after a total 3.5 years of PA and 5 subsequent years of EA. I exposed because by then I had found this website and, having endured so many D Days and so much heartbreak, and the deterioration of our relationship to the point of non-existence, I could see that not having told these key people had protected my H's secret while he continued to abuse me and the children.

When I told my children (nearly 15 and nearly 22 at the time) their grief and disappointment with their father was immense. Both refused to speak to him - for about a week. My daughter was studying abroad and told him not to call her for a while. My son was not nasty to him - just saddened and silent. My H apologised in writing to my daughter (and again face-to-face when we went to see her in Paris), and face-to face to my son, and set about rebuilding his relationship with them. They, essentially, wanted their father back, and they quickly began being civil to him when they saw him working on his relationship with them, and more importantly, on his relationship with me.

I think that having his children know that he was selfish and cruel enough to have an affair and risk breaking up the family has had a much bigger effect on my H than when I found out. It is shameful to bring children into this world and then put their needs at risk for sex in hotels with a skanky woman, and it has been entirely positive for my H to feel that shame.

I feel sorry for your son, knowing that something is wrong and being deceived about its nature by you. You are the one person that he should be able to trust to protect him fiercely and never knowingly let anybody hurt him, but you are hurting him by allowing him to stay confused and anxious. He has his own fears and suspicions and yet has nobody to tell him the scope of the problem, and that he will be safe. You are putting your own fear, and wish to cover this up, above your young son's needs. That is shameful. It is bad parenting.

When I told my H's two older sisters (both our parents are all dead), they kicked his butt soundly and kept a protective eye over my children. One of his sisters had an H who committed suicide over his own affair about 30 years earlier. This had rocked the whole family, and left her 13 year-old daughter fatherless. The effect of his affair and suicide has never really gone away. That sister had a few choice words to say to my H about what he was doing to his children, and they made it clear that his affair partner would never be accepted by them, and that I would always be a member of their family if he was head-up-his-backside enough to continue the affair and break up the marriage.

Because my H is so much younger than them, and because their parents died when our children were tiny, they have taken a protectively role over both their younger brother and his children. They have filled the roles of parent and grandparent that their parents have been unable to fulfill for my family. We have been surrounded by love and support from my H's family through our entire marriage, and their is NO WAY that they would have said nothing while I and the children are hurt by something as intrinsically pathetic and selfish as an affair. If I had known that, and exposed to them, when I first discovered the affair, I would have been spared so much pain.

Your H's family care about their grandson/nephew and they will not support your H while he tears that boy's life apart. They love your H and they probably love you, and their love and support, and condemnation of the affair, will make it hard for your H to simply drift back into it.

You will have no luck asking for this if you continue posting here. Nobody who gives advice on these boards today gives bad advice because that is what the poster wants to hear - which is what you are asking for. The advice given here is taken directly from the work of the founder of Marriage Builders, Dr Harley. We would not be posting here if we did not support what he says. As long as you post here, you will be told to expose this affair to you son and your families.

My feeling last week, when you stopped posting, was that you did so because you did not accept the advice you were given. I think you will do the same after today. That would be a shame, because people like Neak and I, who have been through the mad-OW-who-won't-give-up-and-the-H-who-thinks-he-owes-her-and-wants-to-be-the-nice-guy syndrome, have been trying to spare you from going through what we did. A false recovery is harder to bear than the initial discovery of an affair, because after the first D Day, your H knows how hard this has been on you, and can no longer say that as long as you don't know, nobody is harmed. He is no longer "merely" lying by omission, or lying about a few things while not having to lie to direct questions. A false recovery after D Day involves his lying to your face, pretending that you are paranoid and mad to imagine that contact continues, and showing you to be vindictive, cruel and obsessed when you question him about your suspicions of continued contact. When you discover that he has done this on your next D Day, you will feel so much worse than on this one and it will be much harder for you to recover your marriage.

You don't want to take our advice, which means you are prepared to go through a false recovery, as we did. You are free to make that choice. Good luck to you.

You have absolutely NO idea how much damage you are doing.

MB is where you will get the tools to help you kill this affair dead. You have just given the battle plan to the enemy.

Dr. Harley is very clear that exposure should be done without the cheating spouses knowledge or consent.

I don't feel I have blind hope, folks. If it was that, I wouldn't be here asking for your thoughts. I have serious concerns and I've been chipping away at this massive iceberg all week.

I am terrified that he will do it again. I KNOW that they can contact each other should they choose. Short of locking him up, I cannot guarantee anything. He has her phone number memorized. If he wants to call her from another phone, he could.

The fact is, I feel a total lack of control because he is a person with free will. I can take all of the steps you propose and, lets face it, he can still do it.

You, and you alone with telling your H, can expose this affair to your H's line management.

Tell them that it is being conducted through workplace resources and ask them to to first, institute disciplinary action on your H, and second, block telephone, email and letter contact from this woman.

Ask for their help in saving your marriage. They won't refuse.

This is what I should have done, since my H's affair was conducted using workplace resources. When the cost of international mobile and landline phone calls is totalled it must run into to tens of thousands over 8 years.

I do not think my H would have lost since job, since workplace affairs have happened there before without that punishment, but if he had, or if he had had to repay "stolen" revenue, I would gladly have accepted that to have my marriage protected. I can't tell you how desperate I was for help after many D Days, but thought it wrong to expose until I found this site.

There have been thousands of internet affairs on this forum. That makes no difference.

April, you have no idea what you are doing. You think you know better what to do because this is YOUR husband and this affair is somehow different. WRONG!

Those of us who have been here for years know more about what your H is going to do than you do. Why? Because waywards all act the same. We see the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER again for those who cut corners and skip steps.

Thank you for the constructive reply.

Thank you SuzieQ. I know you are trying to be helpful by being blunt but your approach is only cutting the knife deeper.

Not at all - plenty of couples have seen exposure work.

Free will is exactly why exposure is so effective. Free will comes with consequences. I am free to rob a bank if I want to. But I know there will be consequences.

If you take away the consequence of exposure - knowledge that cheating ruins the reputation - you make a mockery of free will and encourage him to fall victim to temptation a third time.

Would YOU cheat - if you know you would have to look your son in the face and explain why?

Your H decided before he cheated that it would never happen. You would be so happy to tidy that up for him. He cheated once, then twice, quite SAFE in the knowledge you would cover it up again and again.

How many times?

April, if you don't want to expose this time, do know that we are here for you to come back to.

However it is only fair to warn you that by that time the affair has usually gotten so entrenched it is now to the point that he is leaving the wife for the OW by the time she decides to expose.

And he should know that if he does, it will be exposed to everyone, because that's what you did last time. That's what accountability is all about.

I'd be more worried about her contacting him first if it were me. You need to cut off all avenues that she might take to do so.

If you want to focus on anything that may be different about your situation, the only thing that stuck out to me was the length of time. 4 years.

Your WH has had a SSL (secret second life) and also been getting his needs met by two women for a VERY LONG time and this is going to be a very hard habit to break.

Not only should you NOT be cutting corners and skipping steps - you need to go the extra mile and take away any opportunities for this SSL and the A to continue.

We don't support people by patting them on the back while they are making huge errors that are going to lead to more heartbreak and pain. Sorry!

April, if your MB reading has led you to believe exposure isn't warranted, I strongly urge you to ask Dr H yourself.

He has 20 years experience with every type of A imaginable and there are some occasions where exposure isn't advised. They are: violent spouses and hardship in the case of workplace exposure.

Even then he warns you can't recover if you can't expose. Secrets breed secrets.

Do ask him yourself if you think we are mistaken.

Also, if you don't feel like posting while you mull all this - make sure you sleep and eat (or nap and bite - whatever you can manage) Also access anti depressants from your doc if you need them. A second Dday is very hard on the soul and can make it hard to think.

Thank you all. I do feel that we should speak to whomever necessary at work to stop any incoming mail. Cards, letters and gifts are HER FAVORITE way to communicate. And I can imagine her dropping one in the mail every time a date comes along that she feels has some importance. She could do that for years. I don't want to wonder every day if today is the day.

He sees getting a letter and giving it to me as an opportunity to prove himself to me. To show he has the will to resist her.

Another topic: He has asked if we should utilize a counselor to get through it and aid in healing. What are your thoughts on this?

I completely understand and respect this; I was beginning to feel that you were bordering on calling me names, which doesn't help matters. Lets shake hands and move forward.

April I have learned this a long time ago that some people learn lessons going through it and others by seeing others go through it. I know it may seem like we saying things that we can't know because we can't see the future, but time and time again people that have failed to listen find themselves here again.

If I told you if your son keeps playing on a train track he will get hit by a train. I don't need to know the future to know that will happen. Marriage has it's on laws that is consistent and measurable that when you violate those laws bad things happen. Dr. H has figured out those laws and should win a noble prize for it because he hasn't changed what he has said for over 30 years and has been consistently the number 1 place to get help with your marriage. His advice is sound because it works and has worked for over 30 years.

You're way haven't worked in the past, why would it work now. I would love to see you not burn yourself but I will be here when you are ready to listen. I have a son that I kept telling don't touch the stove because it is hot. How do you explain to a kid what hot means, well he touch the stove and found out what hot meant. I which he didn't have to go through that but he had to because he would not listen. Your situation is greater then a hot stove but you seem determined to experience it instead of listening.

If you have the time I would read through the threads on here to see what happens to marriages when people rely on their own wisdom.

The first step of killing an affair is exposure.
At this point, you should read the Exposure 101 Thread and come back when you are prepared to fully expose and start killing this affair

That's very bad news, April and it explains an awful lot about how he got into this mess.

One of things that separates a cheat from a non cheat is a false belief in self control. A man who likes the ladies, and feels they have a power over him will typically avoid the temptation.

A person who thinks they can 'control it' is far more at risk. That's why we see religious leaders, politicians, in short real boy scouts on these forums. It's not the case that only scumbags cheat. Usually it is just people who underestimate the affect of admiration on their ego.

Every contact from her is a lovebank deposit to him. He can't control that.

Your H should know by NOW that he cannot handle attention from his ex gf. He cannot do it any more than an alcoholic can carry on going to the bar.

I can't find the quote but Dr Harley often stresses that the only people who remain faithful are the ones who acknowledge the temptation of flattery and old desire. The ones who think they have self control allow themselves the thrill of the experience, alway believing they can quit (some other time)

I'd work very hard if I were you to keep Susie Q on your thread. Her situation was very similar to yours and her experience in spotting a wayward lie from afar is awe-inspiring. She prevented a false recovery just days ago.

The vast majority are hopeless. They will just do conflict management (shut up and trust him), do zip to affair proof and nothing to restore romantic love. We see scores of counsellor trauma stories. One guy paid a counsellor thousands, was bullied to trust her every session and at the end of it all the wife left him for OM.

There are some MB counsellors around (but a lot of them misinterpret the material), or you can go direct to the counselling centre where you get an MB coach. There is even an option where you have direct access to Dr H on a private forum or to his children Dr Chalmers and Steve Harley via phone counselling.

This is all moot before exposure though. It's common for counselling to go on while the A goes on. Counselling is a handy distraction for waywards. One of the reasons Dr H invented it was because he was sick of having a lying spouse in his office pretending to work on the marriage. If they embraced exposure though, the coast was clear for him to do some healing.

Thanks; it gives me something to think about.

I have told him that my concern is that he will think he can handle it, she will contact him, and he will reply thinking "it's no big deal" to give her 5 minutes and then it will all spiral from there.

So what you are saying is, he needs to know he cannot handle her and needs to eliminate all possible contacts with the understanding that it WILL only lead to trouble.

Thank you for the thoughts on counseling. It's very interesting.

You can't teach him April. He has already gone down that road. He's tasted the temptation and will always be addicted to this woman now. Even if he doesn't think so.

Every lovebank deposit you gave him was attributed to her. She was the new one. The headliner. The side-thrill. No problems/all fantasy. If she had been solely in control of meeting all his needs, she would have hit rock face down because in reality - she is a loser. But she didn't ever hit the rocks - you kept real life moving, while she provided the thrills. Thrills he will miss.

Very soon he is going to experience withdrawal. If he hasn't it is because he is still in touch.

You can't explain anything to an addict about how out of control they are. They cannot believe that. You cannot teach them. Only exposure works.

Even if he doesn't respond, every time contact is made, even one sided contact, he will think of her.

There are cases where just the sight of the OW's car will trigger old memories. Dr H has even told couples to move out of state to make sure there are no triggers that would resume the A.

April I know all this is horribly unfair on you. I know you shouldn't have to do anything hard or difficult becuase you did nothing wrong. However it just IS. It's like termites. You have to root them out properly, sparing no time or expense, to save your home.

I should imagine you are quite numb and scared right now. Do remember we have all been there and we would not steer you wrong.

There is no down side to telling the truth. It's just the truth. It is not wrong to do that and ask for help.

Oh dear. I am so sad to read your post because it tells me you don't understand the problem and are headed for a death of a thousand cuts. All the "remorse" and crocodile tears in the world will not prevent an affair. I am sorry.

And your plan for him to "bring home any communications unopened" completely misses the point. That is like saying that it is ok for the alcoholic to have a drink as long as he tells you about it. That strategy misses the point that one drink triggers a binge. And secondly, your husband is only as good as his word. And you know his word can't be trusted.

I am also sorry that you have chosen to harm your husband by keeping the affair a secret. That hurts you all because affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret only serves to fuel the fantasy. When your son finds out you lied to him about something so important, he will just learn that dishonesty is an acceptable practice.

It is adultery and lies that hurts children, not the truth. Lies and illusions do not make children happy or secure.

Your husband is addicted to her. When you are dealing with an addict, you need to go by his ACTIONS, not his words. His actions clearly indicate an addiction. Most alcoholics and addicts claim they are not addicted and "can give it up anytime!!"

Snooping is not "snooping" when the WS knows you are snooping. If your husband knows you are snooping then obviously he just knows not to use that resource. Telling him about this has ruined your methods and sending him to this forum means you won't this forum as a resource any more.

I know this isn't constructive, but there are moments when I'd love to slap some sense into him!

Part of me wishes I could ruin her like she's ruined me.

I know, again not constructive. But I feel like she should suffer. She knew he was married.

I mean this kindly, but we feel the same way about you.

This experiment has already been done. Your husband has already proven that he doesn't have the will to resist the OW. Do you expect a different result this time?

The only difference now is that you are aware of the threat. The temptation is the same, and he will do it again unless it becomes impossible to continue.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I'm hearing you loud and clear. I was trying to give him info on the importance of our child knowing, not the forum itself. My bad. I'm human too, and I will make mistakes.

I appreciate the information punting to the nature of an affair. Frankly, it's really hard for me to comprehend what must have been/be going on in his head. I can't imagine doing this to him.

I guess I'm feeling hopeless, like there is nothing I can do. I feel like I'm at his mercy. ;(. I feel like I don't know what to believe. I feel like this is a leaking dam and no matter how many avenues of communication I try to plug, I cannot stop this. I am just so, so sad.

Many spouses agree to no contact, but it's bigger than them, and so they find another way that "doesn't hurt the spouse" so badly, and then they taste and enjoy that for a while until they are sucked right back in.

You cannot miss TRUE withdrawal. It's the stuff that horror movies are made of, complete with thrashing on the floor and howling in misery because a piece of their body has been amputated. Continually�for 2-3 weeks. Before it begins to improve inch by inch.

Your husband is not there.

You need to expose on your own. Thoroughly, all at once, and without telling him it is coming.

Working the policy of radical honesty from your side of the street while contact is continuing is a total waste of your nerves and goodwill. It will avail you nothing. All that it will do is alert the enemy to your plans so that they can be sure to steer clear of any minefields where they may get caught.

ALL contact must be cut off�he must change jobs, there will be no way to cut off contact there. Even if his "personal" mail is cut off, it is simple for him to instruct her to always send mail from a business envelope.

April, you shouldn't give him the info about exposing to your child and your family. You are supposed to just do it. WITHOUT HIM. You correct the mistake by just doing it.


I understand. But its important that you understand it doesn't matter what is in his head; what matters is what he DOES. His actions clearly reflect an addiction that is not ended.

Consider:

You absolutely love chocolate. Indeed, you are addicted to chocolate. You know that the lunch money your mother gives you is supposed to be spent on milk, but you use it to buy candy bars instead. One day you get careless, and your mother finds the candy bar wrapper in your lunch box. You promise never to betray her trust again, and always use the milk money as intended. No accountability is put in place. The next day, you have the choice. Do you a) buy the milk and keep your word or b) buy the chocolate and be more careful about throwing away the wrapper?

How long do you think you will be able to resist the temptation?

The feeling of love is produced first and foremost by the mind. Surely you know this? Physical interaction is secondary when you are talking about a real connection.

Your H is saying everything that both a repentant and unrepentant wayward spouse would say.

There is absolutely no way to tell the difference based on his words alone.

You can take that to the bank.

There was no name calling. If you feel someone is breaking TOS - then notify the moderators. But I would not waste time and energy posting to people about how to post to you. You need to focus on killing this affair.

Men are much better than women at compartmentalising their two lives.

In some ways a male cheat is better to deal with: (A WW almost always is besotted with OM and wants to leave, accusing her H of violence on the way out) but it also makes them harder to figure. When he is with you, he genuinely only wants you and thinks only to consider you. But it is the same when he is talking to her. They split their lives up so effectively that Dr Jekyll has simply no idea what Mr Hyde has planned.

You really aren't at his mercy - you can follow a successful plan!

But your situation is not hopeless! There is much that you can do! Dr Harley has a complete step by step and guaranteed plan that WILL work as long as both of you follow the plan.

Like indie has said, this is not fair. We all sure know that. But right now, even if your husband has the very best of intentions�fantasy (his affair) is emotional, and so YOU cannot rely on his words right now�his words may sound logical, but he is not thinking logically. Does that make sense?

It takes 3-6 months of NO contact in any form (even a letter that he brings home to you) before your husband will come out of the "fog". You sure do not want to start that clock all over again every time that she sends a letter to him at his work!

YOU do the thinking right now to protect yourself and your future marriage recovery. ANY communication leak has to be plugged. Exposure must happen, and then you two can begin to truly recover.

You'd be surprised at how good it feels to get support from family and friends. You don't have to go through this alone. Tell people what has happened and ask them to support the marriage.

If people here seem urgent, it's because THIS IS URGENT. We've seen it over and over and over again. We know this road and every dip and turn. Please get support for yourself and your marriage by sharing this dirty secret.

Don't do this, please. Don't use a post of mine, that you happen to like, to damn everyone else on this thread by praising me. This "thank you" is an insult to everyone who has given up time to try and help you today

Absolutely every last person posting on this thread is trying to help you avoid the deep pain that accompanies ongoing affairs. Not one of them is trying to hurt you or attack you, and for you to suggest that they are is unworthy. You should be above that.

Thank you all.

Question: the letter of no contact--he told her on the phone not to contact him the day I found out--

Can we still send a letter?

It hasn't escaped my attention that you have decided simply not to address the issue of exposure, especially to your son. You've been doing that since you asked people not to talk about it any more.

If somebody makes a post about something else, you respond to that, but you bypass any further advice on exposure. You appear to think that you can push that topic further away by allowing other topics to become the focus of discussion, and when that has been done for long enough, the fact that you have not exposed will have been forgotten.

I have bumped two threads for you to read.

Your situation is far from hopeless, but you need to act with a plan. The path to recovery is very narrow. Stop resisting and follow the steps. Start with a complete exposure. Then, develop a list of extraordinary precautions that will make continuation of the affair impossible. Establish no contact in writing. Don't let your wayward husband negotiate terms; you set the terms. Let his employer know what he has been doing with company time and resources. He may have to quit his job. Remember, you drive the recovery bus. He can either ride with you or get out.

I understand and apologize. That wasn't my intention. I apologized to her as well.

If your WH were a possibly recovering alcoholic (but you only have his word for it - no actual proof), would you tell him it was fine to go into a bar every day...as long as he brought you an unopened bottle of whiskey every now and again?

Would bringing you an occasional unopened bottle prove he was still on the wagon?

Is there any chance that he might, once in a while, even specifically order a bottle of whiskey for the sole purpose of bringing it home to allay your suspicions?

Would you feel better if he drank vodka secretly, but brought you every single beer he was offered?

The current system with your WH will be every bit as ineffective at cutting off the A, as the above method would work for an alcoholic.

One last note, on the subject of telling your son. Children who sense tension in the home - and they're all bright enough to do this - and are not told the correct reason behind it, invariably blame THEMSELVES.

Children are innately centered around themselves. They will assume that if something bad is happening, (even if they don't quite know what the something bad is), that it's because of something they did.

Your DS has already been wounded about the A. By telling him the truth, you remove the poison from the wound so he can begin to heal properly.

Why wouldn't you want that for him?

This is entirely true. The only way for you to guarantee NC would be for you to be with him 24 hours per day for the rest of his life.

What you can do, though, instead of wringing your hands, is take all the steps that we tell you to take. The two things that you are evading or ignoring are the most significant things you could do to prevent a recurrence.

1. Expose to your son and your wider families. This will give you both support, and it will increase accountability. Your H will not want to hurt his son again.

2. Expose the affair properly at work. My suggestion, that you thanked me for, was not to tell the mailman, who is not in a position of authority and cannot discipline your H. My suggestion was for you to tell your H's line management and get their help to monitor his activities. Your H would be taking a big risk if he defied their authority.

If your H's shameful secret is known to his employers, to your son and to his parents, and if his employers monitor his workplace activity with a view to disciplinary action should he exploit their resources again, and if your H THEN goes out of his way to buy a secret pre-paid affair phone, or starts visiting internet cafes to send emails, or uses public telephone boxes to contact his whore, then you will need to separate from him.

However, if you leave open the easy means of communication that he has been using so far, and if you don't expose, you are not even trying to put a serious stop to this. You are just giving your H carte blanche to do as he pleases.

All of us would have an affair under certain circumstances (these vary for each of us). If it is easy to have an affair because it is easy to communicate and nobody can see, quite a lot of people will have one (60% of married people already do) and somebody who is already in an affair will simply continue it.

If it is hard to have an affair, those who go out of their way to screw over their spouses are seriously problematic and need to be separated from. You don't know which class your H is in yet, but start by making it hard for him. You'll probably stop the affair with the measure we have given you. You have a very high chance of doing so. You have a very low chance of doing so if you do not expose at to your son, your families and at work.

No you didn't!

That was not an apology!

I am sorry that I assumed your intention was to make me feel like an idiot when you were simply trying to be helpful by calling attention to my na�vet� with this issue. I appreciate your advice and insight and understand that you speak with passion because you yourself have experienced this dread.

I truly apologize.

My belief is that the best program to recover from an affair is the MB program. Sign up for the on-line program once you are certain the you have busted up the affair, i.e. follow ALL the recommended steps previously outlined.

AM

April, you need to get 'WE' out of your vocabulary in this part of your discovery. And understand you are not in recovery and I'm sure your body is telling you that already. 'YOU' need to expose to your child, family, close friends, the OW spouse or family, and his manager. 'YOU' need to get him to agree to extraordinary precautions before you begin to consider recovery.

There is just no way to skip this step and expect to recover. When your are not able to force you body to accept you recovery it will betray you and he will feel like he is justified to get someone else to meet his emotional need that you can't meet. White knuckling it will not do the job.

You need to set aside what you think you should do and follow the advice you are getting here because only then will you have a chance of recovering from this. Since this is the 2nd time and I'm sure you did it your way the 1st time, what we are saying more then likely already happened to you.

Over come your fears and fight for a marriage you deserve and family your son deserves.

April, I just listened to your email being read on the radio show today. Please listen to the rebroadcast before the next show tomorrow. Dr Harley emphasized exposure and the need to eliminate his secret second life.

Dr. Harley also mentioned that "forgiveness" is very inappropriate. Here is his article about that subject: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

There are some good clips about forgiveness in here, please read.
What is Just Compensation?

Here are some clips on this also.
Beware of Bad Counselors

I was quite puzzled by this post and thought that 'I want to ruin her life' was just a random and really rather understandable thought. Then later I realised you might actually be talking about exposure. That you think exposure would 'ruin her life'. Do you actually think that? Do you think a woman who is clinging like a desperate leech to a married man, (except for when she is in the self harm ward after a jilting) has a life that can be ruined?

Her life is already ruined - all you are doing is making sure the runaway car that is her life doesn't plough through your home and ruin your life at the same time.

Telling her friends and family can do no harm to her whatsoever. If she has nice, moral people around her, it might even help her as exposure so often does. She is in control of her life - only she can ruin it. If she wants people to think well of her, she is actually going to have to change. Life is a long thing with many opportunities to be redeemed. Our reputations are capable of going up and down all the time - we are fully in control of that process.

I find this 'it will ruin lives' a really rather baffling attitude to exposure. How can telling people the truth in a polite and responsible way, possibly ruin anyone or anything? Most people, though shocked and horrified, only want to see the affair partners do better and to stop hurting people. There will be some consequences like job losses etc - but the affairees knew about that risk when they did it. People are generally good and have reasonable, caring reactions. They don't let people off scot free, because that would be wrong, but no one is persecuted or ruined. No wonder you don't want to expose your H - you seem to think the villagers with torches will come round and set fire to him.

Not even your sister is allowed to offer her very eager support, which I think is dreadfully sad.

This is what former WH Gloveoil just posted on someone's thread about exposure:

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of April78's Show

bump

@indiegirl

What I meant by wishing the OW could be "ruined" like myself is that it feels so unfair that I should be the only one to carry the emotional burden. I feel like I will forever have that seed of doubt in my life. That I will spend my life wondering why and never have a real answer. That I will never have the confidence in my husband, myself, or our marriage again. Meanwhile, she will go on with her life and forget all but the good times she had with him. She doesn't suffer the life-long consequences. Of course, wishing it is moot. She knew he was married and didn't care. She did all she could to convince him to be with her knowing full well he had a family. She had nothing to risk. Like I said, its not really worth the time wishing it; it really was just a venting statement.

As far as exposure, yes, I felt like it'd turn into a witch hunt. Especially for certain apple in my family. It's just they way they are; I have seen there reaction first hand to this situation with another family member. That said, Dr Harley illustrated the emotional process he might undergo when learning such news his radio and it was helpful.

Lastly, my sister has been a wonderful support front the very first day and continues to be.

Stick around. You will see the OP never gets off scot free. Time and time again they head into a very remarkable pattern of destruction. Self caused of course.

Not the same as your pain.


We HAVE all been here you know. Pre exposure I thought one member of my family was going to be violent. Could NOT have been more wrong. He ended up being my biggest supporter. I thought I could count on my female friends 100 per cent. Turned out they had known about the affair all along and were supporting the affairees. I also thought my H's family were going to take the 'blood is thicker than water' approach against me. Actually, they called an emergency family meeting, flying in from different countries to take my H to task because they didn't want to lose me.

If you try and guess what people's reaction will be - you will be wrong. Only a few things are certain:

1) No one will be more shocked, hurt or betrayed than you - you ARE the betrayed spouse. If you can handle it, anyone can.
2) The people who criticise exposure will DEFINITELY have a guilty conscience. They are highly likely to have had their own affair. Or they knew and were covering up for your H.
3) The people who come down like a tonne of bricks on your H and are shocked, appalled and disgusted will be your greatest strength.

People who are against affairs are good people. Give them a try. Exclude the others.

Exposure is also a test of whether you will go through this again. If your H cannot handle the openness and the reaction, he plans on continuing to live a secretive life.

There are lots of former waywards here who handled the reaction admirably. I could not admire them more and I know they are (now) highly respected in their own families.

@SuzieQ

Thank you for the two threads you bumped for me. They were helpful in improving my understanding. I do appreciate it.

@Melodylane and Brainhurts

(I apologize if this is a duplicate; I wrote once before but it didn't show up)

Thank you for the links and referencing the radio show. Talking to Dr Harley and Joyce was very helpful and reassuring. If I had had all if their wisdom before we were married!

Hello all. I haven't been on here much for the last couple of weeks for a few reasons. One is that reading and writing about this makes me sad ;(. The other is that we've been very busy. H and I have been spending as much time together as possible while still managing work and family. Our son's birthday, the 4th of July and some family vacation time for our son's bday has kept us on our toes.

Every day is a little better. My H seems eager to show me that he means what he says. Yesterday he offered to be rid of his Internet based cell phone bc the Internet is where much of the affair occurred.

He seems to have no interest in her and through talking to him, I believe this relationship was becoming more trouble than it was worth for him which contributed to his ease in giving it up.

I don't feel particularly concerned that he's trying to contact her (though that little voice in the back of my head keeps me monitoring his activities) as much as I want to limit the avenues in which he could get entangled in such a relationship in the future. He feels its a matter of following the MB rules of no contact w exes, no opposite-sex friendships, and no "innocent" flirtation. He has complied with my requests to be rid of avenues that could make these things possible and frequently asked me what else he can do.

Anywho. Overall feel things are moving forward.

April, this is great news and it certainly sounds like you are on the right track. You did say one thing that really alarms me. More on that below.


This is very good and should certainly be a part of your extraordinary precautions. All methods of communication with the OW should be eliminated. That is not even negotiable.


Be assured that interest can be re-sparked in about 2 seconds if the OW is allowed to contact him. This is why it is so important to remove any openings. If he is interested in her you will be the LAST person to know about it, I assure you. He is not going to ACT interested around you. The fact that he "seems" to have no interest should give you NO reassurance because it means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

I'm extremely concerned that the first step, exposure has been half done and glossed over. Nothing can be added until that is done right and your H treated like a big boy who can take it.

Hopefully it will be - I'll chime in when it is.

Here are the segments for just your show, in case others don't have time to listen to the whole show.

Radio Clip of April78's show
Segment 2

@ melody lane (I can't figure out how to add the short quotes? Maybe I can't from the phone...)

I want to reassure you that I am not fully reassured by his "lack of interest" in her. I have told him myself that I will not sit back and just take his word for it. I need non stop proof, transparency, etc. and that I will be monitoring him. My thought is, it was easy before--what's really different now?? I've asked him--so, what happens the next time you're in a funk? You don't know you won't fall into this situation again with her or anyone else. I am actively working on doing what I can to prevent access to her or ANY other woman while trying to fulfill his needs. Every day I check our phone and text logs via the phone company. He does not know this. I also scour his phone and require him to delete any app that makes me uncomfortable.

Sometimes I wonder though, when does it end? I hate being the suspicious wife!

@indiegirl

I hear your concern re: exposure and appreciate the advice you've given. I understand if you do not wish to attend to the conversation until you feel it's been done correctly.

@brainhurts

How do I get access to my radio conversation with Dr Harley from last Thursday?

I listened to this when it first came on but one thing that I did want to note is that Dr Harley advised exposure and he wasn't even aware that this was a 4 year affair in which your H talked to the OW through work email and that avenue hasn't even been closed.

That the EP that has been set up regarding this is that your H will come to you with OW's email should she reach out to him again.

The fact that you refuse to follow exposure when that's what 95% of this 10 page thread is about and what Dr Harley urged you to do is very sad.

It's going to take another d-day before you GET how important this is.

And this is a false recovery, I am very sorry to tell you

4 yr affair - condition that allowed affair still exists
No exposure

---------------- >

False Recovery


We would be doing you no favors to pat you on the back and not warn you for the train that is coming.

The whole point of the two threads is that skipping steps and cutting corners doesn't work with MB.

You have moved on to the business of marriage rebuilding....

when you haven't even completed Step 1, exposure and NC w/EPs to prevent affair from reigniting.

You seem to think your WH is different and won't do this to you. WRONG!

Here you go. Radio Clip of 7-10-14

Will you please answer SusieQ's points?

Also please read this. False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

You should be making sure that it is different now by changing his contact information. As long as she can get through, you are in danger. That is the whole purpose of extraordinary precautions.

And am I understanding this correctly that you did not follow Dr Harley's advice and expose the affair?


That is good to hear, because it is important that you understand this is meaningless. He will always show you a lack of interest. If he is interested, he will not tell you. His interest, or lack thereof, will never protect you from an affair.

@SusieQ

I'm going to answer your thoughts in the order they were written:

Re: Dr Harley's knowledge of details; he does know it was a 4 year, long distance affair; this was described in the original email read on the radio show, in emails between myself and Joyce after that email and again in the radio show in which I called in. The work related issue was that of physical mail he was receiving at work. Email was sent via a secret gmail account on his iPhone. This account was deleted; in fact I deleted the entire Google account and then tested it to be sure. I collected her work and private email addresses and blocked them from his regular email which I have complete access to via our iPad mini at home. I check it a million times a day. The next step is to change the address all together. As far as work mail and packages: she did send a card immediately (it took about a week to arrive). We returned it to sender and wrote a letter of no contact. It is NOT usual for employees in his position to receive any mail. Coworkers were rather suspicious of his receiving mail and his supervisor made comment on it. I haven't decided whether to speak to his supervisor or the mail room clerk. He is seeking a new job and then she won't have his address at all. Additionally, we have deleted apps and web browsers on his phone. He's offered to be rid of it if it would make me more comfortable. I am currently looking into options for monitoring his web usage on his phone. We blocked her phone numbers on his cell; of course I know she an call from anywhere so I also check our phone logs via the phone company every day. I scoured the Internet for listings of our names and had our info deleted from websites like the Whitepages so that she has a harder time figuring out our home address. We have blocked her on Facebook and I have constant access to his account via the iPad at home. I have a list of all of his passwords. As far as daily activities, we speak on his every break and he comes home immediately after work. He no longer goes to the gym because he used to use that time to contact her. He is no longer allowed to spend the night w friends bc he once used that as cover. A couple of times he took time off from work to see her. Now I have his pay stubs and will account for his every moment of time off and will confirm his appointments, etc.

Re: exposure: Dr Harley recommended that we tell our son and my mom. So that is the plan. I will discuss with him again how far and wide he thinks it needs to go.

Re: marital repair: my understanding is that marital repair begins the moment the affair is discovered. Yes, there are steps to end the affair but at the same time you should stop Love Busters and work to meet each others needs. Certainly, moving forward completely can't occur until the affair is completely behind you but I don't recall reading or hearing that you can't begin to work on pressing issues before then. I'm not going to ignore my husband until every detail has been dealt with. But I do understand your point that this can't be truly put behind us until all measures are taken.

(I recently went through blood and urine testing for every STD under the sun; all came back clean. My husband is doing the same.)

Recovery doesn't actually begin until the affair is over. Plan A is when the betrayed spouse not only exposes the affair widely but also eliminates love busters and expresses the willingness to meet the ENs once the affair is over. Very often, the BS cannot meet the ENs of the wayward because the wayward simply will not allow it. Also, it's very painful for the BS to do so while the affair is ongoing. But expressing the willingness to do so once the affair is over is important.

After the affair is over, EPs must be put in place and the wayward spouse must commit to a plan of recovery.

That's a real common error. Most generally think affairs end and therefore recovery starts when the A is discovered.

Actually it barely slows the A down in most cases. Even when the A is over and done with, it can be weeks before recovery starts.

If you want recovery to start, recovery conditions must be in place.

@susieQ

Regarding the (E)Ps I've described, do you think they need to go even further?

@indiegirl

perhaps we aren't in recovery as we are still chipping away at the mess. I still get feelings of panic. What I do though is to act on those feelings. I hadn't considered, for example, that he'd be using private browsing. As soon as I realized it, I told him to delete those browsers which he did so willingly. He doesn't "like" that he has to take those steps but complies bc he wants me to feel comfortable. I've told him that he may not ever use these things in an inappropriate way but I don't want the temptation to be there nor do I want to have to wonder.

Yes I suggest what SugarCane posted to you:

Have you exposed to their workplace?

I didn't say to ignore your H.

This is what I said:

As far as his work place is concerned, I do not believe anything he did at work violated their policies. (I used to work there myself and I don't recall any such thing.) He wasn't using their phones or email. He only communicated w her on breaks via his personal cell. And if she sends him a letter despite his no-contact letter that isn't his fault. What I want to prevent is him getting the letters especially without my knowledge. I wonder if the mail room can legally intercept his mail? Perhaps I can have his supervisor tell the mail room that any personal mail for him needs to go through the supervisor?

The first thing I would recommend is that you go back and re-read all of SugarCane's posts to you. She really tried to impress upon you the issues you are facing with a (a) long term affair, (b) a OW who doesn't give up and (c) them having the ability to communicate while he as work.

I don't think you really got it because you then later went on to forward posts from MB to your H, etc.

Is he following this thread?

Do you have spyware on his phone and iPad WITHOUT his knowledge?

Was this ever done?

Ok I see now:


So no spyware.

And you did not change the phone number and he still has Facebook.

Reposting the advice you were given on Page 1.

No he's not--as far as I can tell. At the time I was trying to express to him that would she tell our son and why (I realize now that's up to me, not him). He glanced at it but didn't seem pursue it any further. I didn't tell him that I was posting here, just to read the info re: exposing to a child. He's not very interested in forums either. Of course, nothing is ever 100%!

I will look back at SugarCane's posts. If you don't hear from me for a bit, we have a busy weekend coming up and I need to pack.

I am working on the spyware option. You do have to jailbrake the phone for key logging (key logging was recommended by your investigating forum). I looked I to teen safe but the company told me that it will not record websites under "private browsing." I can have the private browsing option shut down by putting restrictions on his phone.

With his FB account, I am seeing all of his activity in real time and even read his messages before he does bc his account is also on the iPad at home w me. Same with his email. I'm not very concerned about these accounts; I'm more concerned he could just set up a new secret email account which is why Id like to see the activity on his phone. The secret account is what he used before for 99% of their communication.

And you know this HOW? You have access to the phone and email records at the workplace?

Besides, I am sure he did violate workplace policies by using the workplace address to get secret letters from his OW.

Exactly.

As far as email and phone: he works in manufacturing on a line. They do not have person computers or phones at their workstations. The factory phones are unavailable for private calls unless you go to the main desk and ask to make a call. The desk is manned all the time and you have to have a person come to the locked door in that building, which is seperate. The only computers they use are old-school, local only computers for work orders and inventory, not with Internet access. Additionally, his employer is super strict with time.

As far as work policies, what would the content of the mail matter? Whether from his banker or a lover, I'm surprised they let anyone get ANY personal mail for any reason. I think that it's strange they didn't take him aside and tell him to stop getting mail. Although his supervisor was suspicious of this.

I am perplexed for several reasons.

First, you don't know HOW the employer will feel unless you talk to them about this. Which you were repeatedly advised by SugarCane to do.

Additionally, you have emphatically told us this is the biggest loophole that you are worried about and even at some point in this thread said you were wanting to do this.


What exactly are you arguing about?

Why was this advice ignored?

@SusieQ

I'm not trying to argue with you. Perhaps you are reading an argumentative tone into it? You asked how I "know " re: work email and phone. So I explained. Re: content of the mail: my point is, if they had a policy against receiving personal mail, why would it have been delivered without discussion, no matter the content? His employer is very hard on their employees about everything. I can't imagine they'd let this go on if there was a policy against it. In fact, given their attitude toward their employees, I would have expected them to tell him to knock it off long ago.

Regardless of their, I just need to find a way to keep the mail from getting to him. I think his supervisor is the best defense as he watches the floor and noticed the letters in the past.

The advice regarding the phone has not been "ignored." I know she can use another phone number. I haven't felt a need to disconnect it because I can monitor the calls and texts from that phone very easily.

Furthermore, she isn't an idiot. She can get his new phone number via mutual contacts so unfortunately, it wouldn't fully solve it.


I recently wrote Dr Harley about EPs and I hope to hear back.

April, we already know Dr Harley's views about EPs so we can help you with that. I am puzzled why you are writing Dr Harley with a question that is well published. As long as she is able to contact him at the same #, your marriage will always be in trouble. All such avenues should be blocked.

The fact that you can "see" calls and texts misses the point entirely. The point is that she CAN get through.


If he has mutual contacts that will give out his # to the OW then that person should not receive his new #.

IT is very concerning to those of us who have been through this that you don't seem to be taking this critical step seriously. I want to emphasize that your H is coming out of a 4 year affair. That is a very long time. Because of that, you can't afford to be cutting corners.

Did you see Dr Harley's extraordinary precaution list?

Thank you. I see your point that it's not about him contacting her, it's about her contacting him and resparking his interest in the relationship. And I can see how exposure who help eliminate her modes of attack (in addition to the other reasons outlined) and make it more difficult for him to reach out to her.

Exactly! It doesn't even matter if he agrees to tell you when she calls. That won't help you one bit. Of course he should tell you, but that still misses the point. It should be virtually impossible for her to reach him. If she can reach him on a NEW PHONE, then he shouldn't even have a phone.

And humans are curious. My heart would pound if I got a letter or call from her. I'm sure his would too, for different reasons. And he's mentioned how he feels bad that he hurt her. So I can imagine him thinking, " What's the harm in answering? I'll just tell her not to call." And she'll plead with him. And he'll say he's sorry. Yaddy yaddy yadda.

My husband and I have had this conversation. I've expressed to him that he needs to know that even if he feels he doesn't want contact with her, he can't predict how he will behave the moment he hears from her.

Ignoring means you didn't follow through and or you didn't comment on the advice that was post.

We don't do this for the fun of it, to boss people around and to make a big deal out of nothing. Most of us volunteer our time in posting because we REALLY do want to see your M make it - and we have seen how not following through backfires on people over and over and over again.

It's page 12,...I just skimmed over this entire thread earlier today and a lot of the same things keep getting brought up over and over again but yet haven't been done yet. So let's be clear....

1) Are you going to change the phone number? If so when?

2) What about closing his FB page? Prisca advised that it be shut down and it is also in Dr Harley's published list of EPs.

3) When are you going to go to the supervisor at the workplace to discuss the letters and ask for their help?

4) when are you exposing to your children and family members? You realize this is something you do on your own, right? Without your H?

Are these "mutual contacts" aware of the affair?

When will he be changing all his contact information?

Just popping in to reply; I won't be available for a couple days and didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

My husband has many friends from his youth that live in the same relative area that the OW does. Most of them do not have contact with her but she can contact them if she wanted to. She was his gf in his early 20's and they have quite a bit of overlapping history. One woman is still friends with her but no longer lives in the same area. This woman was kinda the go between for H and the OW by which I mean they both discussed the affair w her electronically. I'd like H to no longer talk to her, though I don't think the friend has vested interest in helping the affair to continue, I really don't want him even discussing it w her. This friend has not contacted my H thus far but I think we should contact her, tell her the affair is done and respectfully cut off ties.

As far as all of your questions as to what I'm going to do and when regarding his contact info , I am not sure yet but will let you know.

Enjoy your weekend.

I can guarantee WH would be very interested in this thread if he found out about it. And it he found out and told OW, she would be WILDLY interested in it.

All the more reason to make sure the path never goes there.

April, I agree with your plan about the so called "friend" who was the go between. She is an enemy to your marriage and should be persona non grata. As far as his other friends who are affiliated with skanky, I would make sure they know about the affair so they can help hold him accountable. He might want to forgo passing around his new cell # to anyone who knows her.

These friends also have to understand that you and your husband can never attend any of the same events as the OW. Telling them the truth now prevents such embarrassing situations.

You need to understand its an addiction. Before NC my WW told me she just needed to see the OM even from afar to ensure he is ok because he was playing a victim and she noticed he had been losing alot of weight when the A was exposed, etc.

She didn't even consider how this would affect me because she was so worried about her addiciton and getting that fix.

It is extremely dangerous for you H to be on FB. Much more than the normal WS.

Given all of these triggers and loopholes and the fact that you said your H hasn't had any signs of withdrawal after a 4 yr affair + lack of exposure, I am very suspicious that there is still C.

The fact that a lot of corners are being cut signals to me that your H has convinced you that the OW is not a risk. Which is actually a red flag.

Because you skipped some EPs your husband is trying to reignite the affair. I apologize if that wasn't your email question on Fridays show. You should come back and post.

So true. Loopholes in the EP's are deadly. If the wayward spouse isn't ready to do them, then trouble is likely to follow.

At some point, both parties have to buy fully into the program. Until they do, it doesn't work.