Hello All,

I am have been lurking for a while, reading Dr. Hartley's stuff, while following DB (which didn't work all that well). To make a long story short, my husband began engaging in an emotional affair earlier this year, which turned into a physical affair at the end of April (although I didn't know it). I suspected it around the beginning of May (I got the "I love you but..." line around that time) and kicked him out in mid May because he had gotten so mean to me.

He continued seeing her, but never got a place to live (crashed on people's couches) and I saw him daily because of our daughter (although I limited contact as much as possible). He wanted to move back around mid-July and I let him (stupidly) while he still had contact with her through work.

I tried "Plan A" (without really knowing it was plan A at the time) and only really survived because I cracked the code on his phone and could see what they were texting (limited flirting and mostly work. I believe that their physical affair ended about 2 weeks before he came home, but of course the affair still went on in both their minds). I pressed him on no contact about three weeks in to coming back and he constantly said he wanted to "try" and see where things went before he cut her off. Predictably that didn't work. He was constantly looking at her FB page. And of course seeing her at work on a regular basis.

We started MC, but the counselor said it wouldn't work after the second session unless he cut it off with her. So I gave him a choice to stay, but he needed to cut it off entirely OR go and I would have no contact with him. So he went and freaked out when I would not have contact with him. Three days into our current separation (yesterday) he cc'ed me on a letter he wrote her cutting things off. It was a good letter and basically said, "I am trying to reconcile with my wife and continued contact with you hurts her. Please don't contact me." He said she has subsequently quit her job (although I am not sure).

We have not broached the subject of him coming back (its been less than a week), but I am not sure what to do. I feel I have codependency issues and I would rather wait a while. Plus, I would rather not go through his withdrawal with him. I feel it would just drain the little love I have left for him to see him pine over her ugly butt.Plus, he doesn't REALLy seem to want to do what it takes (be open to monitoring, telling me where he is, etc). However, I can't really monitor if she is gone with him out of the house.

Any advice?

Hi Piglet, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Has this affair been exposed to everyone? Your children, family, friends, the OW's family and friends? Does the workplace know about the affair?

Is the OW married and if so, does her husband know everything?


How can this be proven? Can you call the workplace and ask for her? Does she live close by?

Hi Melodylane,

The affair has been exposed far and wide. His boss knows and doesn't want to get involved. She isn't married and I haven't told my daughter because she is only 2 and has no idea what it means anyway (I am only 33, ugh). He is having an early midlife crisis (36). We have a lot of mutual friends through his workplace (he runs a fitness program out of a local gym and I know many people there. They keep me updated) do I know what is going on. He is picking up her classes right now, that is all I know. I am not sure she had formally resigned. I asked a couple of employees, but they do not know yet.

She does live close by and they have tons of mutual friends. I have contemplated moving to the save the marriage, but I wanted an affirmative statement from him ending things with her.

He just (like seconds ago) messaged me about getting a legal separation. I was moving toward that earlier in the week when he left and I went no contact. He seems to still want one, so I guess he wants to live out for a while.

Have you spoken to him personally?


I agree a 2 yr old wouldnt understand. But I would tell the OW's entire family. You can do this with a Facebook exposure following the instructions on my exposure thread.


"Mid life crisis" is a form of denial that we typically see in spouses of cheaters. Believe me, the only crisis here is his affair. He is acting the same as cheaters aged 25-75. It has nothing to do with his age, but with his pisspoor behavior.


Affairs are very common in gyms with personal trainers and their clients. I would make it a condition that he get a safer job. If not, you are very likely facing more affairs in the future.


You absolutely should move. Even if he doesn't end his affair, you should move out of that area. It will be a nightmare for you to stay there. And if you do move, he can follow you.


His affair is not over. That is why he wants to live apart for awhile. I am sorry.

PW, your best bet is to go into what we call Plan B, which is a completely dark separation. You would not allow him to contact you in any manner. You would find an intermediary who would pass on any information. It is initiated by a letter telling him what he has to do to come back. You would give him conditions, such as leaving that job, ending contact, agreeing to move and giving you access to all his phones, voicemail, email, etc.

Here is an outline of Plan B: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

I haven't asked him if he still wants to live apart. He just messaged me about the legal separation. It has literally been one day since he sent the no contact letter. But I guess that's all the answer I need.

Her family knew by the way (she is 25 and lives with her dad) and they didn't care. They knew that he was not divorced and hadn't filed for divorce. These are the type of people we are dealing with.

Ok..well, I guess I will keep no contact for the time being and keep looking for another job elsewhere.

I never really worried about his job before because I was a part of the community there. Obviously that didn't help much in this case.

In general, I feel like giving up. I'm young and can feel like he isn't worth it anymore. Anybody who is capable of this sort of thing seems just so not worth it. He took what was a small fire in our marriage and he threw dynamite in it.

Piglet,

I think you said your WHs boss does not want to get involved, well unless the boss is the sole owner, you can speak with his partners, etc. If the gym is a regional or national chain you can go up the corporate ladder with the exposure.

Also the gym my have a facebook page you can message everyone on it.

God Bless
Gamma

x 2

Don't let him come home. He is nowhere near ready for Recovery and it would only be more of a nightmare for you and your daughter to have him in the house.

Welcome to MB

Pw, did you read my post about plan b? And did you personally speak to her parents? Did you read my post about exposure?

any possibility he will start acting like he wants to really reconcile once he gets through withdrawal?

Anything is a possibility, PW. Not all WSs go through withdrawal either. Until he has taken REAL steps to end his affair, you are better off with him gone. Read up on exposure and Plan B.

"Affairs are very common in gyms with personal trainers and their clients. I would make it a condition that he get a safer job. If not, you are very likely facing more affairs in the future."

This quote just seems to confirm that cheaters are just horrible, boundaryless human beings who will never change. So, what's the point?

No, they are not horrible people at all. But those types of jobs are fraught with affairs. And since you know your husband is susceptible in that environment, he would be wise to change careers.

PW, have you personally exposed to the OW's parents? Have you exposed the affair to her Facebook friends? Have you personally exposed the affair to the workplace? Exposure is the MOST CRITICAL step in saving a marriage so we really need to know exactly what has been done.

Exposed to boss personally and basically he said, "I am sorry that happened. Good luck to you."

She blocked me from facebook early on, so I don't know who all her friends are, but I did expose to as many mutual friends as possible. My husband retreated pretty quickly from the physical affair. As far as I cant tell, it lasted about a month. And I can tell he is ashamed because his clients talked about it/left.

I don't know her family or where she lives.

I personally told his family, my family, his close friends, his clients and as many of her friends (who didn't already know and support it) as possible.

I have also told as many of his clients as possible. 4-5 left, but his boss doesn't seem to care.

That is where you should start. Get on her Facebook page and find her family. If she has you blocked, you can sign out and see her friends. Her parents will be a fantastic exposure target.

Good deal!

PW, this is the approach I would take. Since she lives close by recovery will be impossible unless you move. I would find a new town and start making arrangements to move there. In the meantime, you can send him a Plan B letter [we can help with this] telling him you won't consider reconciliation unless he quits that job, looks for a new career, ends his affair and commits to a program of recovery. <------those conditions are the only hope for your marriage. If he won't do those things, you are better off getting divorced.

What do you think of that plan?

Ok. My husband already told me that they knew and didn't care. I also don't know what their names are. She has a bunch of sisters and they all have different dads, so they have different names (you can see where this woman is coming from, right). She has lost a lot of friends over this and doesn't seem to care.

So what does a WS who actually wants to really reconcile look like?

Is there someone above his boss? Owner of the company?

Your husband has a motive to lie about that, though. If she did CARE, she would have him tell you they didn't so you wouldn't contact them. You don't know if they care or not unless you speak to them personally.


I would start looking to find out their names and contact information. You shouldn't give up so easily.


They SAY they want to reconcile.

Here is a sample Plan B letter:

Sample Plan B letter, from SAA (revised edition) pages 77-78:

My Dearest __________,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my goals without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. [Add your willingness to address other complaints that the unfaithful spouse may have communicated prior to the affair.]

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship once and for all. Living with you under these conditions has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it.

Until your affair ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends, ________, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to see our children on schedule that is mutually convenient. They will provide transportation. If you want to communicate about the children or any other mater, it will have to be through them.

I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you th is way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are together. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently end your relationship, follow precautions to avoid absolutely any contact with the other person, and join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss our future together with you.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day. But I cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in this relationship.

With all my love,
(signed)

This letter should be delivered by your friends to the unfaithful spouse, and a copy sent to the lover with a note at the bottom saying:

I love ______ with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for that chance.

He did say he wanted to reconcile, but I am not sure that means much. He gave the OW a no contact letter, but at the same time is looking for apartments and wants to be legally separated.

So, yeah. This is literally too much time and energy. I am just too tired.

When can you get into Plan B?

It doesn't sound serious at all.

This is easy to bypass.
Ask your friend or a family member to find her on facebook, or create another facebook account.
Also, I encourage you to post her on www.cheaterville.com
Internet exposure spreads quickly and hits the affairs hard.

He is still in the fog.

I'm guessing he's Catholic and wants to pretend he is doing the right thing with the legal separation when really he wants to create the space he needs to have his AP.

I am still exposing as much as I can. Logged in with my dads profile to see her Facebook.

I am going to Plan B to the extent that I can. We have no family in the area and my daughter is super young. I may have to have limited contact on pick up/drop off. I could probably get a friend to route emails though.

PW, you don't want to do that! Any direct contact whatsoever will defeat the entire purpose. Do you have a neighbor/friend who would agree to do child exchanges?

The intermediary would need to act as a spam filter and screen out any non kid/finance related communication. She should write the messages in her own words and only pass on pertinent information, such as child exchanges, financial information, etc. Your H will be furious when you cut off contact and will write long essays telling you off. The IM would have to agree not to pass any of that on to you.

Good girl!! Copy and paste all her contacts into a text doc for safekeeping because when you epoxse, she will shut down her page.

Are you following the Facebook exposure instructions in my expose thread?

Don't enter Plan B until you have an intermediary.
Do you belong to a Church? Oftentimes a church can help facilitate exchanges.

Guys,

It's just not possible. I live in a big city and we have no family here. I don't have someone who is just always hanging around to shuffle my two year-old around. Everyone I know is in thier twenties and thirties and has a life. One of our issues is that we have no childcare help (or had been anyway).

We don't have to talk. But I do need be physically present when he drops her off. I suppose I could let him leave her in the hallway of my building while I look through the peephole and then get her when she leaves. She'll probably cry.

And yes, I do belong to a church...but again I am in a big city. Where do you guys find people who will always be available to be an intermediary for your little kids? I don't have someone in my building ( I can't count on them being around) and no family here. The one person I could think of that would do it lives 20 minutes away and is 9 months pregnant. I would need her to physically be a nieghbor.

Remember, my kid is two...she can't even go from the bottom of the building to my apartment alone. She doesn't know how yet.

He isn't catholic. He is a wannabe writer who says he is finally turining over a new leaf and wants to publish things. He says he wants a separation to protect his future assets in case things don't work out. We live in CA and he seems to be scared of community property laws. OR he is just an [censored] who wants to keep carrying on his affair. My money is on the latter.

And to answer your next question, I haven't always been a jerk to him. It's only recently that my anger has gotten to this point. I've was in plan A for about 4 weeks until I kicked him out. He just seems to be a moron who doesn't seem to care how much pain he has caused. My gut reaction to him whenever he says anything now is just, "whatever dude." I am so tired of him. Even reading the plan B letter, I'm like...no. He was as total [censored]. I'm tired of reiterating that I would do anything to fix the marriage and taking responsibility for my part. I tried to do that before this all started. I begged for marriage counseling, etc before his affair was underway. He refused. He is a brick wall. If I always have to make this much effort, it's so not worth it. He takes up too much energy.

You really have to find a way to make this happen. Otherwise Plan B will be of no avail. If he is able to see you and speak to you, then your Plan B will be worthless. He will be furious when he can't speak to you and he will use this as an opportunity to breach Plan B.

Maybe you can do this through a day care center. Pay them to do the exchanges. And your husband doesn't need to see her often, maybe 2 times a week.

For example, you could drop the child off at 5:00 and he could pick her up at 5:30 and return her at 8:00. You could wait until 8:30 and pick the child up. A typical visitation is Wednesday evenings and Saturday afternoons. I would include that visitation schedule in your Plan B letter.

Your intermediary needs to be a close, trusted friend who does not need to live close by. He/she only needs to be willing to act as a SPAM filter and pass on pertinent information. Choose someone who has some BALLS because she can't allow herself to be scared by some bullying from your H.

I would start writing the letter in your own words and post it here so we can give you feedback. Get your IM lined up and make arrangements for child exchanges so you can include that in your letter. You don't have to write the letter verbatim, but just make it a very pleasant letter, no anger. It is the last memory of you that he will have.

In the letter, give him your conditions for reconciliation:

1. end his affair
2. commit to marriage reocvery
3. get a new job
4. move away

And I would move away from there as soon as you can. Regardless of what happens in your marriage, you don't want to live in a community with the OW and all her friends. That will be a nightmare for you. And if your marriage is to ever recover, you need to be far away from there.

OK, so I just told him and he asked me for a timeline. I am not even sure what that means.

I have been trying to find a job in Southern California to move near my parents.

You can't stay with your parents for awhile? Have you asked them if you could?

What did you tell him about? I don't get it.

Did you read my post about going into Plan B? Have you written the letter? Found an intermediary? Set up visitation?

Are you reading my posts? I am spending my own valuable time writing these posts and I don't feel you are reading them.

Can you please read this post and respond?

Melody,

I am reading your posts. I understand the plan B concept. I was trying to make arrangements to do it and also arrange a move. He texted me and asked me what it would take to reconcile. So I told him. Perhaps that was a tactical error.

When I told him he asked for a timeline. I just said as soon a possible. I can move with my parents. However, I am looking for a job because I have to take daily medication of seizures, so I need insurance. It's dangerous if I don't have this medication and my doctor is trying to order me a large supply, but my insurance may not pay for it. Anyway, I'm doing my best to get things in place.

It's not a tactical error. He needs to know and it can be said again in the Plan B letter.


Insurance is through your current job?

Thats ok, but you still need to go into Plan B. Have you started writing the letter? Do you have an intermediary?

I don't have an intermediary. That is the hardest part. I live in San Francisco with no car, so I need someone close to my house.

Also, his schedule is really flexible so he just picks her up from daycare whenever he wants. He sees her like 5 days a week. So, I guess I will need to get a legal separation to get a visitation schedule in place that will prevent him from just getting her whenever he wants.

Nono. The IM can live in China as long as she has email. You don't have to have someone close by. All communication can go through email.


From now on, there needs to be a concrete schedule. No more loosey goosy because the more things that are not scheduled, the more reasons for contact. So you want to eliminate that. Plan B should emulate divorce and in divorce, visitation is not loosey goosy, it goes according to a schedule.

I would also put in your Plan B letter that your child can never be exposed to adultery partner.

I would move in with your parents. That will give you family support, get you out of affairland and make it easier for you to implement Plan B. If your current job provides insurance, you still have the option of Cobra or private insurance. If your insurance is through WH's work then he would be dumb drop you since he would be jointly liable for your medical bills. Him knowing that CA is a community state can be thrown back at him...he would be responsible for your medical bills whether he likes it or not. If you file, the law will probably not allow him to drop you from his insurance. I don't recall CA law on the top of my head but will take a look for you.

What county are your parents in? I am originally from SoCal.

PW, you can not file for D if you move to SoCal until you have been there for 3 mos. However, you can file for legal separation ASAP.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/1224.htm#tab8688

This is a thread of a BW who was looking to move to CA, had very young children and would not have a job lined up:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=170288&Number=2803153#Post2803153

Last we heard she never moved but you may want to read through her thread when you have chance.

Melodylane,

The communciation intermediary is not problme. It's the pick up and drop off that is hard and I am trying to figure that out because she is so young.

Also, I am already in CA. I just want to move south. I can file for either if I want to.

Just have him pick her up from day-care according to your visitation schedule. The day care operators are probably only interested in what the residential parent/bill payer wants. Ask them what they would do if he showed up on a day that wasn't his. Get them to call you before releasing her to him if you like.

At the end of the day if he snatches her without your approval or knowledge - call the cops. You only have to provide him with visitation times not 24/7 access which leaves you wondering where she is. Or ask someone at your church to oversee a handover there.

If you move near your parents they could do it.

You are exhausted. Until you lock this abuse out of your life you are going to drop in harness. Your daughter needs you on your feet. Happy.

Choose an IM who is ballsy and calm. Someone who can handle a ranting wayward. Email is by far the best medium.

If he contacts her saying "This schedule is baloney and I have the right to see my wife whenever I want to blah blah blah." She needs to be able to say "I cant give you any legal advice on your rights, sorry. All I know is that's what she has given me to pass along and that it is all explained in your letter. I'm here for you in case of any emergency or scheduling problem. If you can't make any of the visitation days etc, just let me know and I will pass it on.

If he replies: "Well tell her I am taking her Tuesday as well.." She will just say: "The visitation days on the schedule is the only times PW has available for you. If you can't make any of the days just let me know."





It means "How long can I continue having two women on the string before I have to grow up? If I cheat on you for two more weeks does that still give me room for forgiveness?"

It's an addiction. One they can give up tomorrow - but never today.




Every OW we see has parents who 'don't care one bit - so don't you dare tell them!

They care. She cares. That's why the song and dance about how much they don't care.

She's taking him home to mommy. She can get new friends but she cant get a new family.

Also - if Mom IS a bit scummy - OW knows this. No one wants the scummy parent who let you down growing up to either approve/disapprove when you are being just as scummy as them.

We've seen gangs of tramps stick up for an OW - only for them to be riven by cat fights within months.

Cant this be done through the daycare center? It seems like you already have that in place.

Without a court order the police will not do anything and neither will the day care center...they can try to stall but they are obligated to hand her over to him. WH has legal right to pick up the girl any time he wants.

I know you are in CA...but I didn't read far enough down. Thought you would have to be in the new county three months but since both of you are in CA there is an exception. .

Oh, here is the issue--she spends every night with me because he goes to work so early (5:30am). Even if she spends the might, he can't drop her off that early. So there needs to be a hand off somewhere. Another reason he should quit his job!

I am confused. Why can't your husband pick up the child from daycare for a visit on Wednesdays at 5 for 2 hours and then Saturday afternoons for 3-4 hours? He could pick her up there and drop her back off. You could then come 30 minutes later and pick her up.

I will push for that during the week. Daycare is closed on the weekends. But I will figure something out.

Then he can only have her during the week!

Good girl! There has to be a way.

Letter sent!

I used most of your language (although I took out some of the gushier parts....but I did say I'd meet his needs and be his friend again). My friend in SoCal agreed to be my intermediary.

He is going to hate it so much. He called me seven times yesterday. I just shut off my phone at some point. He is apparently miserable and has no place to stay since he sent her the no-contact letter. He could, of course, stay at home if he wanted to reconcile....but you know...following the rules of marriage is just SO HARD. Monogamy is such a bore.

PW, i fully expect him to do everything and anything [other than meet your conditions, of course] to get you to agree to stay in contact. He will say things like "how can we get to know each other if we aren't in contact?" Waywards hate losing control over their spouses, so just expect this.

Your conditions for reconciliation need to be:

1. verified proof of no contact
2. commitment to recover the marriage via the MB program
3. changing occupations
4. moving out of the area

The above are the only way your marriage is going to recover. He has already demonstrated that his occupation is too tempting for him.. It is the environment in which he had an affair.

And of course, he would have to move in with you. The fact that he doesn't even want to move in with you shows he is not in the least bit serious.

I would also block his access to you. Change the locks, block his # on your phone, block his emails. He will try to get through and will not accept losing control over you.

Affirmative.

Blocking him on Facebook will be the best part...his facebook posts are totally crazy these days.

Oh and he does now want to move in and has backed down from the legal separation. Sent no-contact letter and he asked his boss if she resigned.

But still on the fence about moving...

Plan B letters usually cause chaos with the wayward.
You need to make sure he has no way of contacting you and your friend needs to understand to only pass on pertinent information.

So...if this thing works, how do I know? Even if he agrees to everything at some point, how/when do I let him back in?

I am so wary of EVERYTHING he says because he is just such a huge mess right now.

How do you know this? Are you in contact with him?

He needs to CONVINCE your IM of his sincerity. And they usually are not serious at first. Your conditions are non-negotiable, btw. Typically a WS will try and negotiate away your conditions. You can't do that.

My friend just sent the letter (like a couple of hours ago). She hasn't said if he replied or not.

Yesterday, he was texting me that he wanted to come home and that he didn't want a legal separation. I just ignored it. The more I ignore, the more concessions he is making (at least verbally).

I have another question: do you really believe anyone can fall prey to an affair? I could never imagine myself doing it at all--ever. But looking at my husband's faults--entitlement, impulsiveness, instant gratification--it seems like he was primed for this after his father died ( serial cheater) and he was feeling grief and loss.

I have faults of my own--sharpness, hardness sometimes--but they would never lead to an affair. Some people seem primed.

Any one of us would have an affair under the right conditions and none of us would have an affair under other conditions. People who are very impulsive seem to be a higher risk.

Dr. Harley used to think it was genetic, because so many men in his own family had had affairs. He was concerned that he might have one and hurt Joyce, so from the beginning, they both took Extraordinary Precautions to prevent an affair. If we all took EPs in marriage, we would be removing most of the conditions that would lead to an affair.

It's probably not genetic per se, but people learn how to deal with things from their parents. My father-in-law was a terrible husband and father. He dealt with his issues by cheating and running away, which is the example my husband saw. Even before the affair, my husband would threaten to divorce me at least once a year, usually over some bad behavior he got caught in (like opening up a new credit card without telling me and charging $1500). He would announce, "You are so controlling. I'm leaving." Then fake pack a bag and leave for 15 minutes and come back. I would cry and pout and beg him to come back. Now I Know I should have shown him the door without a second thought and told him not to come back until he paid it all off!

But it was this same behavior coupled with opportunity (Little Miss Gym Rat) that led him to it. When I noticed he was texting her too much, I got the same line: "You're too controlling. I'm leaving." But this time, he really did it because he thought he'd have someplace better to land. He is just starting to realize that that wasn't true.

Yes an affair could happen to anyone but some people may give in very easily while others would have to had gone through a lot of crud to feel justified to engage in one. If I ever had an affair, I think I would really, really REALLY have to be in a bad place mentally and pretty messed up...plus put myself in a bad position to allow it. That is not that case with me exWH.

BSs have a very high chance of having an affair...just think of how emotional you are after Dday...and sometimes numb to the point that you just don't care at the moment. KWIM?

Your husband was not committed to a loving, caring marital relationship.

The issue is Boundaries.
When Joseph (from the Bible) was tempted...actually asked to have sex by a beautiful woman he RAN OUT of the room!
We have to stay out of situations that place us in temptation.

I'm getting word (and he sent me the email) that he put in notice at work. That took all of one day.

What is the next step?

Do NOT speak with him or respond to him directly (or through IM) until a poster experienced with Plan B responds to you

Also, his email should be blocked.

I wish very much I had shown my STBX the door the first time he stated he was sorry he married me....or that he should just leave.

That type of sentiment/threat cannot be fixed by sweeping it under the mat. It just keeps coming back in larger and uglier forms. It will always be the elephant in the relationship you are tiptoeing around, and that he is using to bully you so that you tiptoe.

You are doing the right thing. Stay strong.

IM passed on that he is willing to move and sent his schedule for the day.

I agree that his behavior before was crazy and the affair is an extension of that. It's one of those things you don't know/understand until something like this happens.

He never "fought fair" if you know what I mean.

I bought and just read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. Changed.My.Life.

So has he told your IM that he is willing to abide by all the conditions?

The financial infidelity predating the affair certainly gives one pause. That was the case in my own marriage and like you, I too had a cheater FiL.

I think sometimes men see IB in their fathers and think such excessive independence is normal. They don't fullly appreciate it puts them directly in the path of an A. Marriage and consideration keeps us wise and safe.

I was childless though and could skip away.

He could learn better habits, but he would need to be on board 100 pc. Do you have the MB list of conditions required for a recovery? Will he sign up to them all?

Hi All,

I did send him a list of things. I haven't heard back about everything on the list. My IM hasn't said anything.

My IM asked him why I should stay married to him and he didn't know. He said he knows what he did was really bad and that he is fighting his own demons, which makes him a lousy partner.

I would concur with all of that. Asking for advice on how to proceed.

PW,

I would have WH start looking into places to move. If he is remotely serious about R he will start looking vs whine and complain. Since OW still lives there, staying isn't really an option. If you have any specific questions or want an affair timeline perhaps you can use this time to get that. There are many WHs that were let back into the house only to be lazy and do little or nothing after all their crocodile tears and empty promises dried up. Not sure if this is really appropriate for Plan B but there is no way I would let a WH back into the house without some serious, serious effort.

FYI, I never did Plan A or B.

He has agreed to move.

He is willing to move....but he also can't answer the question of why I should stay married to him.

I would like to hear something like, "You should stay married to me because I love you and I want to make things right. I screwed up our lives and I don't want to be a guy who runs after instant gratification anymore."

I am not holding my breathe for such an answer.

Bump.

He quit is job and is asking about when I am moving. Is asking if my parents would be willing to let him stay when I move to work on marriage. His OP quit her job as well after he sent a no contact letter.

These are the right steps. He needed someone to throw him off the fence he was sitting on.

It's good but now I am facing these things myself. Will I ever get past this? How could he destroy something so precious? Our marriage was definitely not in dire straits and he admits that. It was a rough patch and this happens. I am SO SCARED of reconciling and having this happen again.

Don't ask that again!! Just look at his actions. Would you ask a falling down drunk such a question? Just think of him like that. Just keep moving forward and get moved out of that area.

I have to catch up but it looks like you are doing the right things.

The job of an IM is to ONLY pass on pertinent information. She should not be asking him things like that.

Piglet,

There is a "IM TRaining Thread" here in the forum.
I suggest that you ask your IM to come here and read it so she knows what to do.
You're blessed to have someone in this role but she needs to know what is expected of her and the IM training thread explains that.

Thanks.

I guess she thinks him quitting and wanting to move with us is pertinent information. Which I would say it is.

But I will tell her to stop asking those things.

I agree.


But asking him questions like why you should stay married to him is inappropriate.

He is supposed to let her know when he is ready to commit to all the conditions in your letter. When he IS ready, you can meet with him and listen to his plan. But he has to commit to an ACTION PLAN to do them all. No negotiation and no "i will try and do that in the future."

His sent his conversations about quitting to my IM. So I know he has resigned. He has agreed to everything. Sent his NC letter. She resigned as well. He also said he would pay back the money to our savings that he used to move out (although I only kicked him out a week ago, so he hasn't done this yet. I can wait for him ton do it). He is also trying to get my IM to get me to talk to him about the best ways to move our stuff.


I can't confirm no contact, if course, because he has been out of the house.

That is great!! I would set up a meeting with him and listen to his plan. You will need to judge his sincerity and help put together an ACTION plan to move.

You are doing great!

If you have the "how to Plan B correctly" thread this is also in there.
IM Training School

These men are selfish [censored]! Most women are much too easy on them and roll over. Don't do it! <<<<EDIT>>>> Otherwise, the ball will be in his court. <<<EDIT>>>

So, I screwed up (or we screwed up is more like it).

I had a meeting with him because my IM agreed he was taking the right steps. But then I got angry at him at the meeting. We started arguing about social media accounts, etc. And he stormed off and said he didn't want to move now. I on his bank statement as well that he went to a restaurant the next day where he used to take her and the amount charged would be for two meals. So I think our conversation set him off and he went to go see her. =/

Just go dark again and keep preparing for the move?

I should not have fought him, I know. He agreed to going dark on social media with my IM, but when we talked about it, he tried to negotiate out of it. I got pretty mad that he was trying to negotiate and showed contempt (a big no no, I know). Then he kept saying, "what am I going back to? this?"

We are just too much. It's like total dynamite when we talk. I am trying to work on my temper right now. At the beginning of this, I was a doormat. Now I am so angry. I am sure all of this is normal, but I need to control my emotions better (and this is for me in general). Any tips?

But did your H agree to your conditions, all of your conditions, before your IM passed it to you? You would have given your IM your list of conditions, and your H would have already started on those conditions, such as deleting his social media accounts. The EPs are non-negotiable and he should already know this.

Yes, fighting with him about this was a big mistake. When you feel anger, you need to relax.

Next time your IM communicates that your H is willing, make sure she knows your conditions and to ensure your H is prepared to meet all of them, that you are not willing to negotiate on them.

Dr. Harley has a great article on how to negotiate when you are an emotional person that will get you started on learning to stay calm and relaxed and to not negotiate in anger. And there is also a thread titled anger management 101 here with some great radio clips.

BUT

the main thing is to make sure that your IM doesn't give him access to you if he wants to "negotiate" the conditions for return. His return has to be under the acceptable terms you gave to him at the beginning of Plan B.

A big part of anger management is learning to avoid situations that trigger anger. A husband trying to weasel around the edges of what needs to be done to have a safe and happy marriage is definitely one of those conditions, and that is what Plan B is for!

Hi All,

He did agree to them and started on some of them (put in a letter of resignation) and started planning his move. I think he might have rescinded the resignation (his boss probably didn't want him to go). She also resigned from her job (confirmed by several people).

He had blocked her on social media, etc., but not totally deleted his accounts. He had sent her a no contact letter...but that didn't work out so well, because I am pretty sure they at least went to dinner (at least).

I will read about controlling my anger. Like I said, I swung really wildly from doormat to rager. I am praying about it. I think I am trying hard to learn boundaries. I have none or I have walls. I go between extremes. Rafael (Husband) is the same way, which is why I think he has threatened to leave once a year (usually during our biggest fight).

Thanks everyone. It's been really hard because I went into that conversation with a lot of hope, but then now we are back to square one essentially. I should have just said to him nicely, "I am not willing to negotiate on this issue or any of the others that were laid out in my letter. When you have taken those actions and [IM] sees that, we can talk again." And then left.

Sigh. Still learning.

Having done Plan B with a highly hostile husband and IM'd with quite a few HHH's - what he has done there is standard fare.

You see you will even hear these men talk about how they hate their wives and want nothing to do with her. Oh but when Plan B starts all they want is access!

To recover? Um no. Not until that entire list is checklisted can you expect that. You see a man in an affair needs you, the third stool-leg, to prop up an affair.

He and his mistress have nothing to talk about if he is not arguing with his wife. That is what their entire relationship is based on!

He didn't go to dinner with her because you messed up; he went to dinner with her because you did just want he wanted!

He lied to your IM and was aggravating to you on purpose. He was deadset on getting back tothe way he had the three-legged stool set up; he wasn't serious.

Stay dark until he is serious next time. He needs to have done the job re social media and have an NC letter written before you even consider him again.

Some people tell the IM that their WH needs to purchase the recovery programme/convince the Harleys before they do this.

It is common for a WH to cry wolf and 'negotiation' should not be in your vocabulary.

His NC letter should be sent to YOU so you can send it after all communication with her has been cut off.

If he sends it, he just follows it with a text: "Hey honey I have to send you this letter so I don't get left shirtless in a divorce with my evil wife. Don't mean a word, love you loads xx"

Hahaha...

He did send me the NC letter the first time. And I approved it and he sent it with a bcc to me and my IM (I didn't ask him to cc me, he just did).

Now he is sending my IM pictures of where he is twice a day (he has a very flexible work schedule with big holes during the day--perfect for carrying on an affair since she also has such a schedule (in school)).

But yeah, I hear you guys. I am meeting with my lawyer this week to make sure I can move with my daughter without any hassles. California is not kind to the breadwinner or the betrayed spouse (actually they don't care about being betrayed at all). So I need to protect myself and her.

Has your IM read the training thread? She should have responded: "PW has specifically only asked me to send pertinent messages finances etc. I won't be passing this on". Then she should tell you nothing about his silly pictures.

I will find it and send it to her.

Can someone link me to the IM training thread?

gracias!

I'm really sad all of a sudden. I am planning my move and realizing that husband seems to not be coming with us. I feel bad about moving my daughter far from her dad. Of course, her dad didn't feel too bad about exploding his marriage in a spectacular fashion, so I guess I shouldn't feel that bad.

I am also realizing how much work I need to do on myself. I can't tell if bad things happened in the marriage because of our particular dynamic, or because we are both just kind of hard to get along with and I tolerated his bad behavior too long, while he resented my nagging.

I am plan B-ing again, but we went into in mad a frustrated, so that's the last impression he has of me.

Overall feeling crappy.

Just think though, moving away creates the most likely scenario for the reconciliation of your marriage. That is in your daughters best interest. It is NOT in her best interest to be hanging around a wayward father. If he really wants to see her, he can move with you or move to your new town.


The destruction of your marriage is due to his affair. That is a choice that he made. I am sure your marriage wasn't perfect before, but if he will commit to a program of recovery, your marriage can recover from his affair.


I know it is tough, but you won't feel this way forever. I promise!

Thanks Melody!

Any other tips for staying positive during this time. I'm usually ok, but I burst out crying yesterday.

Exercise

That's funny. My husband owns a CrossFit affiliate. I used to go there everyday. Now I have my daughter all the time, so I don't have time. I could get some videos or something though.

Especially outdoors.

Ugh. Now he is putting up a stink about custody and me moving because it is a significant distance. This is such an enormous nightmare. My parents are no help. They just want me to stay here and get divorced.

You are right on schedule then honey. You are supposed to feeling crappy at this stage. If you were not I would suspect you were of android origin.

I think at that stage I was rocking on the bare floorboards and moaning and blubbing for a good few hours of every day!

Here I am on the other side of the tunnel, really TRULY happy. Totally healed.

You have so much to do while so hurt. We are asking you to run across a minefield with a broken leg. However if you do not - you will be blown up.

Get out of there. Then heal. Don't expect to feel better before escape is even achieved.



If he is being like this then if at all possible I would limit communications (keeping it on your terms) with him ahead of Plan B. Maybe take the kids out for the day (you probably all need a really good treat) and leave your phone at home.

Or don't answer your phone and just get some standard text responses ready: "I can't give you any legal advice I'm afraid. See a lawyer. Out for the day so can't chat xx"; "Really busy so can't chat. Speak soon." or "I will not discuss divorce with you as I don't want one." or
"That is something for the lawyers to discuss. Please respect my privacy as I mend a broken heart."
or "End your affair and I will remain here as your loving wife. I cannot even speak about the heartbreaking alternatives right now. "
or "You are breaking my heart. Please stop pursuing your affair and this divorce."
or
"Yes I agree - your affair is ripping our family apart. Please stop and allow our home to survive".

Rinse and repeat as often as needed. I would suggest that you not read any responses to your texts as they will not make sense/help you and you would be better off getting a bubble bath.

If you do need to speak on the phone with him he is obviously going to go full throttle on you so what you do is you carefully put the phone down. He will not realise and carry on while you go pick out some nice nail polish or something. Then return to the phone and say: "Oh sorry I didn't hear any of that - kitchen emergency."

But do get into Plan B soon!

I am in plan B. My attorney contacted me about this from him attorney.

Really silly, funny comedies. Get stacks of them.

That's great news.

While it is still so rough to get the missives from the lawyers ( another blubbing session greeted my first) the pain does tend to settle down a lot when you are just getting factual stuff rather than abuse.

Be prepared for him to fight everything on the legal side. Perhaps send your lawyer an email which outlines your stance on a few different things so he can just act without constantly consulting you.

Eg. The minimum financial agreement you would go for, that your moving away is non negotiable etc.

What does your lawyer say about his objection to the move? Is it an issue?

I know you have an IM and you have sent her the thread - but have you changed all your contact details?

Hi. I had a loving devoted husband of 38 years! He was my soulmate since I was 17. I still love and miss him. Trust me when I tell you that another woman can change a man completely. They become another person and can take on the OW identity. The OW tells your husband how special and wonderful he is. You become the evil wife. Your husband is being brainwashed and you have to accept it. <<<EDIT>>> My advice is to get strong and fight for every penny. He already believes you are the devil, so you may as well play the part. That's what I've been doing. It saves your sanity. <<<EDIT>>> You can do it!

Hi Indiegirl,

I live in California, a state that doesn't care what happened and is not kind to the betrayed spouse or breadwinner, both of which I am.

They see everything through a lense of continued and uninterrupted contact with both parents...even if one parent is setting a terrible moral example. Before I went into plan B, I heard my husband lecturing my daughter on lying (eyes rolling). He has exposed her to the OW, etc. All grounds in my mind for taking my kid and getting the hell out. However, in CA, that's not how it works. They don't care what he did. If he fights me and the court orders me to move back to San Francisco (actually, they will order HER back. Not me. But I'd have to go of course), I'll be screwed if I quit my job.

I am going to talk with my lawyer about my options at this point. He doesn't really want full custody or anything like that. That would impinge on his lifestyle of doing whatever he wants. He is just trying to make my life harder than he has already made it.

Infidelity laws need to be brought back. This is a GREAT moral evil. Dr. Harley is correct. It shatters people's lives in every way and exposes kids to horrible, horrible examples.

Anyway, I hate CA right now. I wish I lived in Alabama, where I could sue him for infidelity.

Same deal here in the UK. They don't care. The marriage contract is not enforceable; vows don't really require anyone to be faithful in legal terms.

However lots of us living under unjust laws made it work anyway. How? Because you are up against a wayward. One of God' s stupidest creatures.

Read the Art of War. It says that the general who is aware of the battlefield's pitfalls and makes the most intelligent plan is the one who wins.

It also says that the army behind an impenetrable fortress (Plan B) is also invincible.

In my experience Sun Tzu was dead on. So make your plans; you are the only one with the brains to do so.

YES!

I feel like I am having a panic attack now. HELP!

Breathe into a paper bag.

How are you?

I'm doing better. He attempted to drop my daughter off at the door yesterday. I just opened the door, took her and closed it as he was trying to talk to me. I'm not sure what he is thinking.

If this happens again, the recommended procedure by several women who have been in plan B is to smile, say "I would appreciate it if you do not speak to me" and walk away.

What they all think: 'How do I have my cake and eat it too?'

Good job not falling for it!

Is this a temporary situation while you get into Plan B?

You shouldn't be seeing him at drop offs for precisely this reason.

Have you read the How to Plan B correctly thread? I'm concerned you seen him right after having a panic attack. Now you are thinking about him. Not good.

I'm in plan B. He just came to to door instead of following procedure.

There is only so much I can do at this point. If he literally wants to come to the door, I can't stop him in the moment. I didn't want to get mad or make a scene, so so just took my daughter calmly, nodded my head when he said something about her flash cards and close the door (I didn't slam it, I just closed if slowly but firmly).

I'm sure he texted my IM an earful, but she hasn't said anything.

I think about him all the time. I still feel like I messed up our chance at reconcilation. He has literally quit his job and was ready to move and then I let my anger get out of control when he tried to negotiate on social media, instead of firmly stating it was non negotiable. I have a lot of resentment I am working on and feel like I sent him back to her ( although I know that's not true). I feel like I have swung wildly between doormat and aggressive witch.

Then he doesn't get to see the daughter. Period. Either you have your IM meet him with your daughter somewhere or have a relative with her and you are not home. Period. You are letting him do this. Be firm. If he doesn't follow procedure, he doesn't see her.

Thumbs ups!

The more people I expose to, the more I am convinced that most people are morally corrupt and had no backbone.

Unfortunately there are people that are okay with affairs. Good job for exposing and try and let the morally corrupt people bother you.

I meant to Try and NOT Let it bother you.

How do you block a number on the iPhone 4? I keep trying and failing.

First, add the number you wish to block into your contacts. Go to Contacts, tap the + button, and add the number. Then, go to System Preferences:Phone:Blocked:Add New..., and select the number you want to block from the contact list.

I have an old OS. It doesn't have the blocking feature. I'll update and block. He hasn't tried to text. But he will because I blocked him on Facebook.

How do you guys deal with legit kid emergencies? My IM is great, but she delays messages sometimes, etc. I want to totally block him but have resisted the phone because of that.

OK. In that circumstance you did all you could. However have your IM message him saying you are not in contact with him so he cannot expect you to be at home on visitation days and that she is just reminding him where to take her. Then start making sure you are out so if he tries again he has just made a longer trip for himself.

Exactly what has happened Indie girl!

I also limited his visitation to 2x per week. He's going to hate that. He loves her so much...not enough to not cheat on her mother, but a lot. Too bad he is not acting like the type of man he would want her to marry...but thems the breaks.

I am out getting my nails done, or a facial or having coffee at the bookstore when he drops her off from now on.

He seems to be really ok with this arrange my now. He hasn't tried to contact me or anything. It makes me kind of feel bad.

Perfect Plan Bing!



When your Plan B is obviously strong they will no longer try to break it every five minutes. That's why it gets easier to maintain - but remain aware. They usually ramp up their efforts and try to break it in a bigger way after taking a long break.

You already knew he wasn't committing to recovery, so why 'feel bad' that he isn't adding insult to injury by using you for cake eating?

Until he signs up in full he is persona non grata.

You are right. I just feel bad after reading, "survivng an affair", I feel that I got angry too quickly and I used my anger as punishment. Like I was expecting groveling along with everything else. I've just been so traumatized and agreed to almost everything so quickly that I seriously didn't trust it.

However, I have not made it easy for him to tell me the truth, ect. There isn't a reward in it for him. I get super upset. I feel to certain extent that we came close and then I messed it up...which is of course always how I feel.

I'm sure you moved to Plan B when you should have. Dr. Harley states that BW should only be in Plan A 1-3 weeks and 3 weeks are the max for BW due to health concerns.

I'm sure you're in the correct plan.

If you go over to MB101 forum and read what I just posted to luna alpha; much of the same advice applies to you.

Plan A for women is far, far, far briefer than it is for men which can lead to misunderstandings when the generalised article for both is read.

When directly addressing men, Dr H will tell them to woo their wives and make it 'rewarding' to be around them. With women he pretty much always tells them to get out of there and be much more stringent with their husbands.

Mainly this is because it takes a much more emotional toll on women; it makes them sick. This makes us appear very unattractive as well as not being a good idea health-wise.

If you were starting to get lovebuster-y, well that was only going to get worse so it is great news you got out of there.

Honestly, I think a dignified retreat leaving just a calm, well spoken letter (which offers forgiveness!) is so much more loving than a cheating husband expects when he demonises his wife to the mistress.

Remember too, that Plan A is not supposed to be all jam, anyway. It is supposed to mirror the reactions of a reasonable spouse (including the outright and unafraid opposition of an A!)

When your husband's A ends and the fog dissipitates he won't hold it against you that you got angry over unremorseful adultery!

Anybody would find that reasonable. It doesn't depend on you - it depends on his own ability to find his moral conscience again.

Hi Indie,

Yeah, I was in Plan A for way, way too long (1.5 months) and even before that (when I first kicked him out) I had way, way too much contact with him. Its been about 6 months of living hell. I got whooping cough (I kid you not) and had a seizure. So yes, it made me very sick. I was following Divorce Busters, which might work for regular martial problems, but is horrible for infidelity. I was encouraged to have contact with him and it made me and our relationship much worse.

The length has also made it difficult for me in general. Now that I am properly Plan Bing...I am starting to want to divorce him, which I guess is OK given the circumstance. I am just not sure how long I should wait/think about it. It's a big decision, even under these conditions. I just want to be as sure as possible.

As a general rule, Dr. Harley advises Plan B for 2 years and if the wayward hasnt returned and agreed to recovery then file for divorce.

The two year rule is really if you want to save the marriage. Dr. Harley has also said in the past that he doesn't discourage those that want to get divorced right away from doing so given the magnitude of the violation. This, I suppose that at any point along the way that BS wants to throw in the towel is fine given hot horrible infidelity is.

I just mean--how does one know? I'm starting to feeling pretty empty/indifferent towards him. Even if he wants to come back, I'm not sure Id even want that now. I just want to be sure that won't change before I file for divorce. I'm not sure when that will be.

Your feelings sound a lot like mine, you may benefit from reading my thread.

Essentially when I saw a lawyer about my separation (something everyone should do including you) they said I was very vulnerable to him clocking up debt unless I filed.

Dr H says to always file if legally necessary: you don't have to finalise and even if you do you can remarry. So I filed. Six months of Plan B and I really couldn't see the sense in remaining married so I pushed to finalise.

You go up and down from day to day in the early stages. I've never seen anyone completely free from the rollercoaster in under six months, so that is probably a good time frame to start with. Perhaps review at that point.

It's been almost been six months, although I allowed him to come back (without plan b) for about two months.

So basically, what I am saying, is that I have done everything wrong for the past 6 months, which has drawn down his love account to -1000. I just started plan B-ing a few weeks ago, but now I am not sure it's even worth it. If I had done this at the beginning, it might be different. But It's been so long that I am not sure I can get past it. On top of it all, he wants to fight me on taking my daughter to LA (this is via my lawyer--obviously she had to tell me that). So it really is getting to a point to which I do not care to try. I like Plan B-ing though and even if (especially if?) I divorce, I will keep it up.

Yes it most certainly can happen that way. It can kill all desire to recover if you stay out there too long. However I have seen people come back from worse so it is not impossible.

All I would say then is monitor your emotions from day to day for a short while. See if you swing back and forth. You should avoid making an emotional decision.

Can I just say that no matter what happens, I absolutely love exposure. I exposed to this woman's teenage sisters and the tesponse was priceless. The oldest one is like 19 and wrote on behalf of the other two about how inappropriate I was. But it was totally appropriate that this woman (25) slept with my husband in the same house with them? Yeah...haha. No.

I once worked as an sid worker in Africa (yes, I did)! But exposure is my greatest contribution to humanity ever.

Did you post OW on www.cheaterville.com ?

What a wonderfully different example you have set for those poor young women who clearly have no morals at all. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if they had a wayward mother whose affair was normalised instead of exposed.

I am not sure about her family. I know her mom was an alcoholic...so that can't be good.

I had a wayward mother whose affair was normalized actually and I realize now how much I have reacted like my father...to appease and silently rage. My mother exposed us to her affair and basically flaunted it. She did not hide it at all.

But no more: exposure, plan B and lots of prayer! I am on my way to a much healthier life. =)

She'll be going up on Cheaterville this weekend. Her name is **edit**if anyone wants to lock up their husbands in Northern California.

Ok...no names...=) I got carried away.

I am having way TOO much fun exposing. The confirmed narcissist OW just shut down her facebook and instagram! Yeay!

WH opened a new email account just to send me an email entitled "What are you doing? Please Stop!!" which I promptly deleted.

Post her on Cheaterville asap!!

She may have just blocked you from Facebook and her account may not be shut down.

As for your husband, block his email and tell your IM "WH just sent me an email. I have blocked his email address. Please tell him to only go through you."

I am so tempted to write back... "Oh, pardon me. Am I ruining your affair?" But I will not--because I am plan Bing.

But you can't blame a girl for daydreaming.

He's probably upset because she is yelling at him and having a fit over the exposure.
This is what causes affairs to crumble!

Jedi,

I rerouted that email address to my IM. Of course he is upset because she is upset. The responses of her friends are priceless. I am "so inappropriate" for contacting them and they "have her back". Yep, the contacting is the issue that needs to be rectified this instant! Not the fact that she is having an affair with a married man!

If someone told me my best friend is having an affair with a married man, I would call my friend immediately and try to talk some sense into her. But you see, this is who she surrounds herself with. I guess people with inappropriate boundaries attract other people with inappropriate boundaries.

I am going to post on cheaterville when I get home. Can I ask what the reach is?

The reach on Cheaterville?
There are some cheaters that have been viewed 5 million times!!!

It is huge and it shows up on Google quickly.
That is why it's so valuable in exposing affairs.
It was actually founded by a Marine whose fellow soldier came home to a cheating wife and he felt that there should be a way to report adulterers and protect our marriages from them.

Stuck her up there on cheaterville! I found a great photo of her to put up as well.

Great!

Now that the euphoria of exposure has worn off, with all the attendant fall out from the OW's friends, I just feel like of empty and like I still want to get a divorce. I just keep thinking that starting over with this man is more trouble than its worth. I kept contact with him for WAYYYYYYY too long. Now I don't think there is any going back. We have only been married for 5 years, this affair has been 10% of our marriage. Like I said before, I feel very done...at least right now.

Yes. It did.

Hey all, so WH will not let me move with my daughter. So I am not sure what to do. I could try to fight him in court. We will not recover here and to be honest, I'm tired of waiting for him to end his affair. His actions seem so disrespectful and crazy. My other option is to just file for divorce and see how he responds. Any thoughts? I'm getting really wary of fighting for this marriage. I'm starting to view him with so much contempt. I'm at the knee-jerk love buster stage (when I think about him I want to yell at him). Not sure how to handle this.

Hey all, so WH will not let me move with my daughter. So I am not sure what to do. I could try to fight him in court. We will not recover here and to be honest, I'm tired of waiting for him to end his affair. His actions seem so disrespectful and crazy. My other option is to just file for divorce and see how he responds. Any thoughts? I'm getting really wary of fighting for this marriage. I'm starting to view him with so much contempt. I'm at the knee-jerk love buster stage (when I think about him I want to yell at him). Not sure how to handle this.

How far away do you want to move?

I want to move from northern to southern california. I have talked to my lawyer. I need a custody order if it materially affects how much he sees her. And he sees her three times a week for about 3-4 hours. I would have to fight him in court, definitely.

Call a lawyer in the area you want to move to.
Tell him you are separated and want to move.
Ask the lawyer if you can move to the new county and file for divorce and custody orders when you move. There is usually a waiting period to establish residency. Ask what it is.

Do you anticipate that your husband would take legal action immediately if you just left?

I have already talked to my lawyer about all of this. It would be three months for me to file for divorce if I move to a new county.

In the case that I really did move without telling him, I think he would probably take legal action. I think this is the only issue he would take legal action about at this point. Ideally, I would like him to move to LA with his friend or cousin, while I move to OC with my parents at least for a while. I am not that interested in reconciling yet, but I would just like to get out of the area so that could be possible. If we stay here, divorce is inevitable and I want to avoid that until I know for sure that is what I want.

Does anyone else struggle with feelings of being "second best?" I almost can't stand the thought of him coming back because I really can't tolerate the fact that I was so quickly replaced. I know that this is what all waywards do, but honestly, is love and marriage so little to these people?

I have real issues with this...feeling replaced, belittled, etc. Like the second we started having a little bit of a hard time, everything just fell apart and he ran off. All I keep thinking is that I was trampled upon so easily. It's not a good thought.

I personally would move to SoCal, hire an attorney there then file for separation (convert to divorce after the three months.) WH could legally fight you but he also may not. He isn't going to get a hearing tomorrow or much sympathy from a judge given his behavior. And your lawyer should make it crystal clear that all his crap behavior will be brought up in court too. CA may not be a fault state but a WS does not want their dirty laundry flying in court. I would take my chances...put the fear of God in your WH and move.

Indeed!

Have you had any luck with a job in SoCal?

Also there is no support system in NoCal for WH either (correct me if that is not the case). He is also unemployed. A WH can huff and puff all he wants but at the end of the day he will not want to be primary caretaker. Your attorney can make a very strong argument why you left NoCal. WH could fight you but he will look like an ahole.

He is not unemployed. He rescinded his resignation.

This sounds like a great plan

Ok, I will confer again with the lawyer. She did say he could have me arrested...which scared the hell out of me. Would he do any of this stuff; honestly, it's so hard for me to say. I never thought he would go crazy, cheat and treat me like utter crap...but he did. He definitely lashes out when he backed into a corner. His mother urged him to let me go...but he still wants to have his job, his mistress and his daughter.

What? That sounds like a scare tactic. Everything I have read about CA says you can't leave the State after papers are filed...not the county...and nothing has been filed.

Is this attorney in NoCal or SoCal?

She is in NorCal. No, they can at the very least order the child back, which is an issue if I quit my job. It would go to court, of course and he is super unstable right now...living in hotels, etc. But he does have onging contact with his daughter, so she said it wasn't clear what the court would. I don think I have a good case though looking at this:

do.http://www.divorcenet.com/states/california/ca_art09

Although it is clear that I am the sole custodial parent becasue he living like a drifter right now. She has never spent a night away from me. In fact, s

Piglet, is OW posted on Cheaterville?
Did you do a criminal background check on her?

That website does not reflect your current situation. You do not have sole custody nor are you the custodial parent...there is no custody order of any kind...which is what that website is talking about. You are the primary caretaker...that's it.

Everything on this website (the official CA site):
http://www.courts.ca.gov/1033.htm

says nothing about throwing a parent in jail, etc. I recommend you speak to a reputable attorney in OC to see what they say. Regardless of what an attorney says, it is still your choice. If you plan to stay in NoCal and don't file anything, you will always be at the mercy of your WH since you legally can not dictate when he sees DD.

I did a random google search about moving from one county to another when no orders exist...got this attorney's site (and turns out he is in Santa Ana). Maybe call his office and explain your situation, PW. I didn't look into his background/reputation but the website seems to give straight forward info.

http://farzadlaw.com/orange-county-child-custody-attorneys/joint-legal-custody-in-california-rights/

I can talk to someone in OC, but my attorney is very reputable here in Oakland. She recommends that I get a court order if I want to move. The issue is that it'd not Slam dunk. He is clearly unstable; however, he has continuous contact with his daughter. In any case, I think I will file and see what he does in response. My attorney assumes it will go to trial, but I'm not sure he is actually inclined to fight in any real sense.

Yes! It's betrayal and struggle is something of an understatement.�

The term second best only applies when a good judge does the choosing. Besides, you were chosen. Wives are; mistresses aren't. Mistresses are whoever happen to be lying around. No vows necessary.

My x's OW was an old friend and I knew her inferiorities well. I never considered myself second best. But I struggled with the logic.

That's because there isn't any.

It's really not about you. You know this having learned about wayward habits, but you don't know it bone deep, as you will when experience teaches it over again.

It's not just on these forums I see it. In real life too. The best of the best discarded for obvious inferiority. Why? It's not a case of who he wants to be with. He made that decision on his wedding day. No it's a decision of WHO he wants to be.

There's an excerpt in Jekyll and Hyde sums it up perfectly. For a while he is happiest with both; being able to enjoy respectability and depravity in equal measure. But that's not how deals with the devil work. You have to choose eventually.

"To cast in my lot with Jekyll, was to die to those appetites which I had long secretly indulged and had of late begun to pamper. To cast it in with Hyde, was to die to a thousand interests and aspirations, and to become, at a blow and for ever, despised and friendless. The bargain might appear unequal; but there was still another consideration in the scales; for while Jekyll would suffer smartingly in the fires of abstinence, Hyde would be not even conscious of all that he had lost".

This, is, Indiegirl, so good. It describes waywards so perfectly.

What do I do when he wants to change up child visitation without any notice. He has been seeing her for a few hours m-w-f. He has to work Friday so now he is demanding that he sees her on Saturday. I am taking her to a football game, so that isn't going to work. Honestly, I hate this so much.

Your IM shouldn't be communicating that to you. You are giving him access, which is all you are required to do. Just let your IM know the days he sees her are set in stone. If he can't make a day, then he misses a turn until the next one. "Those are the only days available" should be her stock reply. "If you can't make a certain day, you need to give 48 hours notice for PW to find a sitter. (Of course really you will always be prepared for a no notice no show) " let me know if you can't make it to any of the scheduled visitation days".

He can't expect the accommodation of a co-parent and teammate now. This is what divorce is like. Welcome to reality pal.

It will also make him a better parent. His way he would be scheduling in his child after he has scheduled in dates with OW or just screwing with the schedule to get a response from you.

Even if he DOES give you notice do not let him change the dates. Routine is important for your child. You ideally want it ticking over with such regularity that the IM is hardly needed.

Yeah, he is trying to slip notes under the door. Picking fights with my IM, etc. All I can think is: this is what you said you wanted. To be free. Now he is free and just wants to torture me.

I don't get it. No...I do. Because really being done with a relationship means walking away from it and not wanting to bother/mess with the other person. That was how it was with my other significant relationship (before my husband). When we broke up, it was hard, but we didn't try torture each other. We never did the living together thing (I didn't with my husband either) and so there wasn't too much to discuss or disentangle at the end. There was a bit of emotional back and forth for a couple of weeks, but then we sort of both just stopped realizing that it wasn't going to go anywhere.

I sort of feel that it SHOULD be the same with divorce if its a considered decision. But it hasn't been. Because he doesn't actually want to divorce me (or didn't really think about what it would be like before he decided in his head he was no longer married to me). He just wants to make he his bad guy so that he can continue his affair.

I would say it the other way, PW. He just wants his affair, and so he has to make you the bad guy.

But he ALSO doesn't want to divorce you.

Absolutely right Catwhit! Absolutely right.

And all of this created drama around seeing my daughter...now he is going out of town for the weekend and won't see her anyway (which means he got someone to cover for him at work...so he could have seen her, which is what he said he wanted to do).

Great news...my mom is coming to stay and be my intermediary with my daughter. I have had so many issues because he keeps trying to break my plan B by not dropping my Daughter back off at daycare and just waiting for me to come home with her in order to access me (we don't have family in the area and I have had trouble getting a physical intermediary). So now, even if he comes to the door, he will be meeting my mom, not me!! I will be out or at least in another room. Thank God. Thank God!!!

I'm actually crying tears of joy right now. This is the first time in a long time I have felt like there is any justice in my life.

This great. How long will she be staying?

As long as I need

Good. So once she gets there go dark.

I will. I litterally just got an insane reaction from someone I exposed to last week (I didn't hear from her all week and she just went nuts on me today). It's ridiculous when someone says you deserve to be cheated on by exposing the affair. Oh well. I can understand the "I don't want to get involved line. Lots of people are made deeply uncomfortable by this sort of thing and it takes A LOT of moral courage to say something. But to lash out at the wronged party is crazy. Of course, I am portrayed as the nutty one for having the gall to say anything

Yes...there are people who react nuts to hearing the truth.
I think it hits a nerve in them somehow and they project back at the betrayed.

It is all about them though and not you.

Piglet,

I exposed OM and months went by....finally his brother messaged me back and told me to "grow a pair!" (he was upset about exposure).

Ironically, this was after divorce was finalized!!

There are many toxic people in this world and exposure does help you see who your true friends are.

Yeah, she was terribly insane. This was her post:

"So your plan to end this hurtful behavior is to involve people who have no business knowing or have anything to do with your [censored] up marriage?? And how do you suppose this is going to help?
After first reading your message I was planning on just ignoring it and simply tell you to leave me out of it, after all it is none of my business. But then after reading that you�ve told lots of people, I changed my mind. I chose to leave V16 for this very reason but it seems that I cannot escape the drama.
1. you claim that you do not want to cause any drama but that is the only thing that you are doing. By involving people who have absolutely nothing to do with this situation is simply childish and a straight up [censored] move. No wonder he cheated on you.
2. How does bringing something like this to light help out your situation? Is this your plan to �win him back?� Because I would love to see how this plays out for you. Not only are you running his career but I can�t imagine him being happy to hear that you are telling the whole world about your problems.
3. After hearing about all the people you�ve told, if I were J your plan to �end this hurtful behavior� would only encourage me to continue doing it. What does she have to lose? Absolutely nothing! Your so called husband on the other hand does. I hope you know that what you�ve done is give J more ammunition.
4. The only way that J is going to be forever gone from his life is if he wants her to be. Clearly, he doesn�t. This isn�t a one way street. Your so called husband is a grown man and capable of making his own decisions. If he has not stopped talking to her after all of your ultimatums and threats what makes you think he is ever going to? Especially now after you are adding more fuel to the fire.
Lastly, the only person I have sympathy for is your daughter. I too agree that no child should have to ever go through that but let�s not forget that your husband chose to put her in that situation. I respect the fact that you want to save your marriage but that doesn�t mean turning a blind eye to his actions and solely blaming the other party involved. Don�t be one of those girls who after being cheated on, defends her husband and tries to put the blame on the girl. That is completely cowardly and makes you look like an idiot.
I hope you know that I have zero allegiance to either one of them. I do not agree with what has happened but the way you are handling the situation is completely wrong. Again all of this is my opinion and am only vocalizing it because you approached me first. And just to put things into perspective, I lift with Jessica twice a week and not once has she mentioned ANYTHING about this situation. So if you want the whole world knowing your business, go right ahead but know that you are the only reason why this would happen.

That is all. Please NEVER contact me again. Good luck trying to �fix� your marriage.

Piglet,

Have you posted OW on Cheaterville?
If not, now is the time to

I have. It's comin up on Google searches of her name now.

Was that not s totally insane reaction?

She "supports" her friend, the OW.
With friends like that, who needs enemies?
She'd support her jumping off of a bridge too

Good luck to this OW's friend that OW doesn't go after her man/husband. You were trying to let her know to protect her own relationship/marriage.

She isn't married...which makes a lot of sense when you read this reply. OW has lost a lot of friends over this. This is one that stayed...destructive people seek out other destructive people.

She's desperate for friends poor love and has to settle for scum no matter if they hurt others. Her response to you is just defensive justification. Don't bother responding. You've got her thinking.

I know this friend of hers and I never thought she would react this way. She was a mutual aquaintence of allnof ours, but I guess she has become close to OW (although she says she has zero allegiance). It is cruel and callous...and she blocked me so I couldn't reply even if I want to. The funny thing is that she didn't seem to read what I wrote her. Since she knows both parties, I encouraged her to ask both of them to end the hurtful behavior, not just ow. I hadn't realized that she had gotten so close to OW. Not even OWs sisters were so completely horrible. Anyway, enough focus on her cruelty. I am glad the exposure stage is done though. It takes a lot to lay everything out there and get these sorts is reactions, particularly after everything else that has gone on.

The most valuable part of exposure is finding out who the enemies are imo.

The people who reacted most viciously to exposure in my case were friends of all three of us.

They knew, didn't tell me, felt guilty. That's my guess. Obviously they have to be excluded from your life from now on.

For a person who claims to have no part in dealing with the affair
the responder sure gave it tons of thought and got riled up enough to craft a response in spite of originally not planning to.

Bullseye for you I say.

That is a good target you exposed to! Way to go.

Battling infidelity is not for the faint hearted. Fear is something you learn to face when doing so. Fear of nasty reactions and judgmental onslaughts.

(pat on the back from me for being brave in your facing the situation)

Yeah, her big issue is that I told a bunch of people. I'm not sure why she would are about that since she thinks I'm such an idiot. A couple of people who thought I shouldnt spread it so wide told me that..but not with any venom.

During exposure of an affair, there will always be people who either ignore your message, people who support you, and people like the one who reacted the way the OW's friend did. The best thing you can do is to drop it and ignore the ones who don't support you and your efforts to end the affair. It's nothing new, as hurtful as her nasty message was to you.

Exposure is the right thing to do, even when it makes some people uncomfortable or angry. You will find your supporters, and you will know now those who are "okay" with adultery.

Can I ask you...do the cheaterville things like totally ruin people's lives? It came up SOOOO quickly on google. That thing is never going away now. I do actually feel kind of bad about that, although I know I shouldn't because she willingly played a large part in the destruction of a family.

The only reason I feel bad is that I am a Christian and I believe that she can be redeemed too. In fact, I wish nothing for her but to leave us alone, to clean up her life, find God and to find what she is looking for elsewhere. I don't actually want her to suffer in eternal google hell.

Accountability is valuable in a marriage and in a society. If everyone lived as though one day their doings could be published, we would all live a bit more carefully, wouldn't we?

What the OW did is deeply destructive and everyone SHOULD know about it. She can still seek a redeemed life if she repents before God. Her life will not be forever ruined for having this TRUTH published about her.

Adultery is more destructive than burglary, rape, and even a house burning down. Those crimes are all published. Why not adultery?

My experience on here is that the bigger and more shocking the exposure the more quickly they get freed from the fog.

That is a kindness. Affairs are not fun and usually those in them are horribly depressed with dead eyes.

I lived next door to an affairage which lasted 20 years. He became an alcoholic and she was beaten up while they portrayed this perfect image to the world.

If someone had burst their perfection bubble in the early months, they would never have had to serve that sentence. They could have stayed in the marriages their sane selves wanted or found new, honourable partners.

Besides all of that it's pretty rich for her to bust up your family and not expect any comeback! All you've done is tell the truth.

The only reason the sites are disgusting is because the truths they tell happen to be.

Not many posts say "This woman was attracted to my husband but decided it was better to keep her distance with him and not pursue an inappropriate friendship with him".

If she burgled your house you wouldn't second guess it going into the newspaper and what she has done is more life wrecking than that.

Thanks for the reality check peeps! She posts everything online anyway...she has every social media account ever, and keeps them all up to date and public (until recently).

If I could have access to her instagram account I would hastag it: #sorrynotsorry.

I just have to remember what this woman has done to my life. ALWAYS REMEMBER. What she is getting is compassion from me by allowing her to make changes in her life.

You won't always remember. I hardly ever remember to remember OW.

When justice is dished out, you move on.

GOT OW's PHONE NUMBER!

Confrontational text:

Please stop contacting my husband for ever. And most assuredly, 100% never, ever come into contact with my daughter again. You have played a huge part in ruining my life and my little girl's life. You need to know and be accountable for the pain you have caused. Please face who you are.

And that folks is the sound of an affair falling apart for ever and ever.

On another note...Lawyer drafting letter to see if WH will informally let me move with daughter. Mom being physical IM. Exposure done. OW confrontation done.

I am doing this. Courage begets courage.

I know someone who had sex with a minor. The night he was arrested, his devastated wife heard the gospel and was saved. This was used for that man's salvation soon after.

Yes, for the rest of their life he is on the sex offender's list. Every one of their daughters' friends' parents should check the list before letting their daughters go anywhere (I know I do). Imagine my shock at finding this information about a solid Christian family.

When I placed a call to the mother about my daughter declining the overnight, I felt awful about explaining why (not her deed for her to be punished forever), but would have felt worse just keep saying no.

She explained what happened and said it is very hard to get these calls all the time. But, every time it provides an opportunity to tell how God forgives even the lowest, most wretched of sins.

That is a beautiful story, Sunnytimes.

So, now what?

I have exposed and he is pissed and am in Plan B. I am getting my lawyer to write him a letter informing him I'd like to move (we are trying to avoid a costly move away order at this point). My mom has moved in so he can't get around my no contact. My IM doesn't tell me about the craziness he is texting her (although at one point she said she was amused. That made me laugh).

Waiting game? We messed up our first serious reconciliation with anger. What can I do in the meantime to be able to Plan A better if this works out. Being in Plan B itself has dissipated my anger and stress (because my life is just more peaceful in general). Prayer has helped. Any other recommendations for putting MB principles into place? I need to work on creating space for honesty as well. I have been very hurt and angry about him falling in love with someone else. It makes me feel VERY devalued. But I know I need to create that space if we are going to save the marriage because he needs to have a safe place to tell the truth.

Noooooooo to the waiting game.

Once your Plan B is secure from harm it becomes Plan Piglet.

Think big. What do you want your life to look like? What makes you happy?

Think small. What are the little things you can't live without?
What colour are you going to wear on your toes?

Remember no need to PoJA you can do as you wish!

Thanks indie girl!

First order of business: find a mommy-toddler yoga class! Find just a mommy yoga class (since my mom can help take care of the toddler now). Kick bootie at work! =)

Awesome. Just Awesome.

One thing you deserve credit for is your name.
Piglet Wiglet is a nice friendly name.

You've got to wiggle it, just a little bit, because you're the Piglet!

There is also a walrus in these forums, and I am sure he is a fine person as there is no such thing as a bad walrus.

Oh and there is a Barbie and Catwoman too I think.

It's my daughter's nickname. I would have used my husband's nickname for me, but that seemed slightly inappropriate given my current circumstances.

So my mom told me tha wh tried to come into our apartment today (he refuses to be off the lease. When I rekeyed the door he told the landlord who requested the key and made him a copy). He got scared when he realized my mom was in the house. As I had suspected, he is using the house during the day when I am gone. I suspected he was using it to nap, use the Internet, whatever. He may be staying with OW or at the gym or wherever. Who knows? He doesn't have the balls to get his own place. OW is 25 and lives with her parenfs, so that isn't a long term option. He's a consumate cake eater.

Well you can't have that! What can be done about it? Will your landlord continue to do this?

Nothing can be done about if unless I move. That's the law and the landlord has an incentive to keep him on the lease. My mom is here now, so I'm not too worried about it. He won't come in if she is here. She is staying here as long as this thing takes to be resolved. And I am moving one way or another. If I am able to move with my daughter, in leaving. If not, I need to move anyway and file for divorce (if I am forced to stay here divorce is my only option).

Mmmmm. One thing my lawyer told me is that just because something isn't legally enforceable doesn't mean you can't send a very threatening and formal letter asking them to desist.

I'd have your lawyer send a letter to both your landlord and WH saying it has come to their attention that persistent invasions of your privacy and personal space are being made in spite of the recent marital separation.

Then something to the effect that any continuation will be deemed harassment or stalking and could form the basis of a restraining order.

Your lawyer could suggest that any genuine need for access to the property (hint: there isn't one) should include proper notice to you via your lawyer. The landlord should also be told that he needs to advise you of any keys being made available to other tenants now that you have had to change them again.

Something like that. I'd have an informal chat to your landlord first saying it's something your lawyer says you have to do and he needn't worry about it as long as he is letting you know who has keys.

He may decide it's too much trouble to get involved in. WH's lawyer will certainly tell him to behave.

He's only doing it for a cake eating fix so his lawyer isn't going to understand why.

Hi Indiegirl,

Yep, we are using the threatening letter tactic to try to allow me to move with my daughter. My mom is disabled, so she'll be in the house all day, so he won;t come in. However, yours is a good idea to send a letter about that too. I certainly mean business.

I have also asked his boss to stop letting him stay at the gym at night. He stays there and probably with OW as well from time to time. I basically told the boss that he is enabling the affair by letting him stay there. I told him that my husband is a grown man and he needs to either come home and get his act together or get his own place and file for divorce if he is choosing to leave his family. He is 37 years old. If he is going to leave his family, he needs to take responsibility for his choices and not leach off of his workplace. This is the same boss who didn't do anything about the workplace affair, so I doubt he'll do much, but at least I said it. He cannot live with OW at this point long term because she lives with her parents (I kid you not. And her parents know he is married. Sigh). I think he probably does a mix of staying at the gym and OW's house. I have also seen charges on his accounts for hotels. So he stays in hotels as well every once and awhile.

I am also packing up the rest of his stuff and will leave it out for him. I am packing up all of my stuff too because I will either be moving south soon OR out of our current place if I am forced to stay here because of my daughter. In the latter case, I will be filing for divorce because our marriage cannot recover here and will need a smaller, more affordable place.

Lastly, I am trying to figure out a way to contact more of her FB friends to expose. She blocked me a long time ago and even with a different account, she has hidden her friends list. Any suggestions to get around this? She has also blocked instagram.

PW, since attorneys are involved....where does WH claim as his place of residence? Where is his mail going, etc? He had to give his attorney something. I would talk to your attorney about pressing his attorney for such details. It looks bad for him to be sleeping on couches, OW's house, the gym...and failing to disclose his whereabouts. Your attorney should be ALL OVER HIM (and his attorney) about this when he request that you be allowed to move South.

If the boss isn't going to do anything about WH sleeping at the gym, consider going to the property mgmt company and tell them people are sleeping at the gym. The city zoning code department would probably like to fine the owner if he is allowing someone to use a commercial building for residential purposes. Sleeping/living at the gym is likely a violation of city zoning code and the property lease.

Squeeze!!!

Hi Black Raven,

He doesn't have an attorney as far as I know. Only I do. But I just started Plan B, doing all this stuff, etc, so I don't know. I am going to write the corporate operations manager of the gym (It's a local chain) and tell them that the manager of the location is allowing my husband to sleep there as well. The custody thing is just getting underway and I need to pay my lawyer today for her to draft the letter. I will have it sent to his work. He is totally living like a vagabond. Why? Because he really doesn't want to get a place. He knows that I would surely file for divorce in that case, so he is avoiding it. He has applied for and gotten several studio apartments throughout this ordeal, but never takes them. He is not staying with friends anymore because he knows I will tell them right away if I find out who they are (although I have told all the friends I can think of. He might ask his clients, but I have told most of those as well).

His mail is still going to our place, where I place it in the "circular file" when it comes. "Oh, you want to have an affair? Sorry, you don't get your mail." Natural consequence.

Yes, living like a hobo will look bad for him in terms of custody. I am counting on that. He is only spending about 5-6 hours per week with my daughter now because he cannot take her overnight, etc. so I have a good case that his contact is limited anyway, so I should be able to move with her. I also have epilepsy (which is controlled on medication but there is always a risk). So it is risky for me to live on my own with a two year old with no family around. My lawyer told me that was a good fact in the case to make before a judge if it went to trial.

I am taking total control of this situation. Nothing to lose by a lyin', cheatin' husband. If he won't shape up, I will be in a much better position no matter what.

Also, if the move is shelved then ask your lawyer about drafting an agreement that you have exclusive use of the apartment. You also have a negotiating point in your move that WH can come back to live in the apartment if he agrees to you moving with DD to SoCal...leave the big furniture and just go. I don't know if you rent month-to-month or have a lease but brainstorm on ways that you can get out of there with as much cooperation with WH as possible.

You may have to file to get stuff done but it can't hurt to see what WH will agree to. He may be sick of sleeping all over the city.

Gotcha. I thought I read he had one as well. That may work to your advantage if he is too cheap or doesn't want to pay for one. Make sure your attorney gives WH a specific date to respond/sign...and it should only be days, not weeks.

He definitely does not have the money to pay for one. He spends money like mad even though we take home about the same amount.

I was thinking about offering him the apartment in exchange for leaving as well. Our lease will go month-to-month after December and I can take MY name off of it when I leave if he won't take his.

WH's mom is encouraging him to let me leave as well. She told him he is "torturing" me and that I needed to leave for my sanity. All true statements. She won't really talk to me, but I know she is really ashamed of him.

All good especially the MIL pressure!!

I wouldn't get into any detailed $ talk about the apartment. Don't mention that you will remove your name from the lease after December or tell him how much utilities or whatever costs. You just want him to sign so you can move. He is a big boy and can figure it out on his own.

Yeah,

My MIL is way too easy on him (maybe how he got this way); however, she gently nudges him in the right direction. I think she knows that I am both smarter and more determined than he is, so she is slightly scared of what I will do. Now that his love bank account is like -100 million, I think she is right about that.

I am not going to do anything insane, but I am going to take all the steps necessary to throw him off of his fence. What 37 year-old man with a two year-old thinks sleeping at a gym and on people's couches and in his girlfriend's parents' house is a good look? None. A year ago he would have heard a story like this and thought that guy was super-pathetic! Maybe he'll return to his old self someday.

At least one does! Sadly, there have been far worse than your WH...and too many like him. But no it doesn't look good...unless you're delusional.


Yep

Worse has to be REALLY bad. The only ones that I think are worse are the pregnancy ones. Ugh. How completely awful.

Oh one last thing--

I wanted to address the question of how to tell more people on her side with her facebook completely shut down. Even with my other account, she has her friends list block out. Any ideas?

I hit mutual friends of theirs (ours really) the best I could. I got her good friends (about three) and sisters who all told me off. I also hit up her weightlifting coach. Her mom didn't say anything (I don't think she checks facebook). I also texted her directly and told her to leave my family alone. I just found her address (gold) and will write a letter to her dad. Anything else? Should I stop with the exposure now? too much trickling?

Often you can see who liked her pictures, etc and go from there

I only have her recent profile pic (it's the only thing you can see). About 25 people liked that. Just do those people? I sent her dad the letter, which should get their in the next day or two.

What about my husband. Should I hit up his distant friends on FB? He also recently hid is friends list (eyes rolling). But he never hid his timeline. I know almost everyone I exposed to, but there some people that like his posts a lot that I don't really know. Hit them up as well?

I would hold off on further exposure and focus on moving and taking care of yourself and DD. You have already exposed to the vital people.

Sounds good. I did send the letter to her father though. I thought that was an essential target.

Ok...good to be done with exposure...so.much.energy. And the responses can be totally nutty.

If you've exposed to key people (certainly her friends) then I'd like to see you go dark. I dontlike that you can see his charge account and Facebook. You'll never focus on you with that kind of information stream coming in.

True. I can delete his accounts. I blocked him in FB, but I still have my dummy account.

Shall I still pack up his stuff and leave of out?

I'd have it sent on to him or placed in storage and send him the details of how to get it.

Yeah, I am still really spinning and I need to stop. I am still really sad about our failed reconcilation attempt. I feel like it was such a waste. He agreed to move and everything and I let my anger get in the way.

Don't beat yourself up PW. If your WH was serious about Recovery he wouldn't walk away so easy. It shows that he is pretty wimpy and wouldn't be able to handle the Recovery rollercoaster.

Yeah, I just deleted his accounts from my Mint.com page. I saw that he ordered a credit report (to get an apartment, I presume) and went to a coffee shop near where she lives.

Deleted my dummy FB account. She locked up her facebook and instagram when I started exposing, so that is good. I am still really sad. I was fine, but now I am in a huge spiral. I am a "fixer" by nature and it's very hard not to try and fix this. I suppose that is the way these things go.

Yeah, I need to not fight so hard for something he doesn't seem to want. I am the one eating all of this pain. I know that if he were serious he wouldn't have lied to me about looking at her social media accounts. He wouldn't have kept threatening to leave over and over again (after getting upset about him looking at her social media accounts). I have to remember that he isn't serious and if he were, he'd try to make the marriage a safe place. He has never tried to do that.

I found out where the OW lives. I could have his stuff sent there. I am sure her parents would love it.

Wild horses cannot stop a WH who is serious about recovery. If yours is not, you're better off out of it.

I've seen 'recoveries' take place with lacklustre WHs - if by recovery you mean being or staying together - but they tend to be pretty grim. The BW has to push him uphill and tends to lose all love for him.

The recoveries which take place a good ways into Plan B tend to be better. The BW is healed and nonchalant about doing anything strenuous and will only allow a return if the WH has truly had his road to Damascus moment and is offering a devoted recovery. Under such circumstances they fall in love again.

Then there's personal recoveries like mine, which you wouldn't expect to be particularly striking but I've been surprised at how many go on to do significantly better in life than when married.

I've only been here since 2011 and the plans take two years but I've seen a lot of success stories when they are done right.

I'd advise against it. I was very tempted to do something similar, have his stuff sent to OWs house but I'm glad I did not. It would have been an up yours gesture to dump his junk there and a tacit approval / acknowledgment of their relationship.

You're in Plan B now, do nothing for the sake of reaction or to send a message. Just get rid, but do it neutrally. Send it to a relatives he can collect it from or a storage facility. Only send it to OWs place if that's the forwarding address he gave you.

If you send it with dramatic intent, you'll be wondering how it was received. I don't care how that goes down for him but I'd like you to get your head out of the affair and focused on you. Your head can only follow your actions though.

LIKE...will have to remember this one!!!

On of my friend's once said to me, "Jesus needs to knock that boy upside his head", which does equal a road to Damascus moment.

OMG, my mom just called him without telling me to "talk" to him. He said he was at work and would call her back. She totally doesn't get it. That is not going to work. ugh.

It can take a while for people to get it. It's particularly hard if you haven't gone dark yourself yet as they can't see what that would look like. They also think you will peek and that the wayward can therefore still hurt you.

Just persistently explain that his name is taboo and you don't want to know.

Yeah, I told her that if he calls back (he won't) to not talk with him. It's not going to make a lick of difference. She said, "well you exposed the affair and asked a bunch of people to talk with him." Well, yes. But that was really for the shock of it all. Sometimes the sheer shock makes a difference.

My mother in law is talking with him about letting us move. I signed the retainer for my attorney today. Deleted his accounts, deleted my dummy FB account. I am going to stop posting at all to my own FB just so what I am doing can't reach him.

I am allowing myself one day--today--to wallow in grief. And then I am going to leave my own addictions behind. My addiction to knowing what he is doing, who he is with, etc. I have to remember that he isn't acting like my husband, so I can't allow him to hurt my like a husband.

Is there anything so painful as this? Not much.

I never told people not to speak to him, I just said I don't want to know about it. Sometimes people have their own hurt and ddisappointment to work out with them.

I used to let myself have set grieving time too. It's part of the work. I used to let myself cry in the shower before seizing the day.



Nope.

She talked with him anyway. I told her I didn't want to know. She proceeded to tell me anyway and I had to stop her. The little I heard was interesting, but made no sense, per fog babble.

Just persist. I was walking out of my parents house abruptly for six months before my dad caught on.

So I got a text from OW because I had sent her dad a letter. It was all about how I caused the affair, etc.

Then my IM gave me a warning that my WH was saying that he was coming home because my daughter needed a dad in the house, but would not meet my conditions.

It seems like the exposure worked.

Yup!! They are probably fighting huge fights!!

Good job!!

Um.
Don't get excited.

Prepare to hold firm to not allowing WH to run the show.

True that. Their fights aren't anything until there's NC.

Your WH may also think he can gaslight you to take the heat off them. Don't break plan B. He needs to do what you've given him in your plan B letter and ends the affair.

No they are still in 'let's fight with Piglet not each other' mode. Exposure is causing trouble and they need you back as scapegoat.

You've changed your phone number right? Do so if not and make sure WH doesn't get in and can't break in.

If the POSOW can text you, then you need to change your number now.

LTL

He has keys doesn't he? If he's coming home your disabled mother won't be able to stop him. Get some deadbolts in place or something.

Yeah, He came in last night. I locked myself in the bedroom with my daughter. He almost broke the door down before leaving. He just kept saying, "we are going to fix this! We are going to fix this!" My mom kept saying, "if you do the things she asked on the list, she will talk to you about coming back. You cannot come back without making her feel safe," which I think was perfect.

I can get a strong inner chain lock and have the lock rekeyed AGAIN.

I blocked her phone number after I got the text with the new iOS operating system, but will change my number as well.

But there is a mix of blame Piglet and rift between them. The letter to her dad sent her over the edge. My note to his boss to not let him sleep in the gym because it enables his affair also made him really mad (because the boss kicked him out).

Does anyone ever file restraining orders in plan B?

Yes, and domestic abuse if he actually keep kicked a door open in a threatening manner, not just to get in because he forgot his keys.

LTL

He didn't kick the door down. He used keys.

He got violent. Kicked down a door and pushed me against a wall. So this is definitely over now. I filed a police report and am pressing charges

He's in meltdown mode and it looks like his sweet affair partner is finding him to be too much trouble to keep as a boyfriend!

When did this happen?

A couple of hours ago. My mom let him in when dropping off my daughter. I told her under no uncertain circumstances not to. I was locked in the bedroom and he figured that out. He was mad that my IM was not sending me all his messages. He was mad that I am trying to move with my daughter and thaf I will not talk to him.

I will not tolerate his abuse any longer. He is just transferring his emotional abuse to physical abuse now.

Are you okay?

Just concentrate on taking care of yourself and stay protected. We usually advise Husbands to carry a VAR, Voice Activated Recorder, but I feel you should just in case he makes ANY attempt at contacting you.

Yes, he IS in meltdown mode. His affair probably fell apart and you took assertive steps to isolate yourself from his craziness, but just worry about protecting yourself please.

How is your Mother? Was she around when this occurred?

LTL

I'm sorry he did this, but good job for calling the police.

Major issues in affair land.

Please be careful. Do you have a VAR on you when he comes around? Your mom should also have one on her.

Piglet,

I know you already know this, but I am going to re-emphasize--Document, document, document!!

Date, times, events, witnesses, leading up to and the sequence of events, while it's fresh in your mind. This is just incase you need to recall circumstances for trial or defense. And it is for your recall only,, not for court evidence. I know you think you'll remember but, believe me, as time passes and other events occur, you'll forget important details.

Play it safe. Document!

Will do. I also filed a police report, but I am going to journal everything

Good for you filing a report.

It shows that you have boundaries of acceptable behavior in your life and he crossed one.

My wife came home once, and I was in the bedroom (door locked)...she also kicked it in and broke the entire latching assembly.

This gives me huge pause. He is now both emotially and physically abusive. I'm not sure this can be put back together at all.

A year ago, I would have never believed that what is happening now was even possible. We were happy (or so I thought).

It's like the person you entrusted your life to became a zombie in an instant, ain't it? Sad, sad, sad.

Only time will tell if your marriage can recover.

Affairs ARE abusive....in every way. Your WH is railing against loss of control of you and OW and the situation. You are showing you have zero tolerance for abuse.

Do not try to project what will happen later. Just take steps now to keep out of the abusive cycle and to be in Plan B and its environment of self care and protection.

You need to file for separation or divorce ( I would file for D) and also file for a Restraining Order ASAP. Without court orders you will continue to twist in the wind. You can ask for the move too. The text from OW (admitting to an affair with your WH) and your WH getting physically violent works in your favor.

Do not delete any texts, emails, etc from POS OW or her enablers. A BS should keep all affair evidence. It is foolish to toss it since it can help your case.

Sorry for the continued hurt, PW.

Yeah, this has just gone too far. I'm not sure what he imagines is going to happen now, but it's definitely not good. I've given him every opportunity to do better. I'm doing all I csn to have an effective plan B, and he keeps getting around it and begins fighting with me. He doesn't respect boundaries at all.

Well, I'm getting a restraining order against him. At least that will keep me in an affective plan B while I sort things out.

I may need to wait to file for divorce until I get to my new county, but I will file a restraining order.

My in-laws keep contacting me, which I think is unproductive at this point. They are of limited help. They don't understand the fog so it's not a good idea to be in contact with them.

Well handled. Please make sure you secure your home and let your landlord know he used those keys for violent purposes.

So my IM finally told me that what he was trying to tell me is that he would let us leave and then follow us later. I realize that this would allow him to continue his affair, but my goal is to leave at this point. Now I don't think he will agree to it.

Why didn't your IM tell you this?

I would question the truth of this. You have a habit of feeling regretful because of your part in this, forgetting that fighting an affair and snapping a wayward out of the fog is maddening. He KNOWS how to make you feel like it's all your fault.

Maybe he told your IM this AFTER the confrontation knowing you would feel terrible? Just like waywards say "I was thinking of working it out until you exposed!!" Now he says he just wanted to tell you you could move? If that's what he wanted you to know, why get so NUTS about it?

This sounds like just another manipulation tactic on his part to get through your plan b. I don't buy for a second that he came over to your apartment and tried to break the door down just to tell you you could move away. That doesn't make any sense.

Anticipate manipulation, gas lighting and hysteria from him. He knows how to push your buttons and disempower you.

She just told me that he is willing to move/explore moving if I talk to him about how it would work. I gave him my terms, so there is nothing to talk about. Should that be my response?

She just told me that he did message her ahead of the incident.

I agree Zibbles. He was saying, "I'm trying to help you. You have to talk to me." But got super angry. I told him, "you are still in contact with your affair partner." And then he said, "are you planning to take our daughter without my consent?" All I said was, "you'll hear from my lawyer. I'm not breaking any laws." As he was leaving the room, I went to shut the door and he starting saying,"this is my family." I said, "you are still having an affair!" And that's when he kicked the door.

So he came over to tell me to move and then got mad that I was...trying to move. It makes no sense as usual. So now she messaged me that he is willing to move IF I talk to him.

I would take him up on this. He can meet you at your attorney's office to talk (with your attorney present) and sign the agreement giving his consent for you to move...signing being done first of course.

There is nothing that needs to be talked about face-to-face. Your IM could even tell WH to email his specific questions to her. She can then send the email directly to your attorney and your attorney can discuss it with you. I have been an IM and have sent email directly to the attorney vs the BW.

He is saying now that he is willing to move with us, not just willing to let is move.

That doesn't change what I posted before. If he is going to move "with" you then he can still sign an agreement that you have his permission to move with DD or that it's his intention to move with you...whatever. If he emailed this to IM then ask your attorney if that is enough to give you the green light to move to SoCal. I wouldn't worry about whether he moves. The main thing is you and DD can get out of there. Don't get bogged down with this has to be some agreed upon possible Recovery. Let him think whatever he wants but I would take this chance to get out of NoCal.

Gotcha. Any other possible courses of action. I could file the restraining order, but it might be just better to get him to agree and leave it alone or do both. I need to talk with my attorney tomorrow. His door breaking happened, but the police told me that it will probably not be pursued given that there were no witnesses.

What won't be pursued? The restraining order or charges?

Talk to your attorney tomorrow about the move and if his email is enough...and also the restraining order, etc.

Not that you need a witness either, but your mom didn't witness the door being kicked in and him pushing you into the wall?

This sounds like a good idea.
Most waywards like the idea of being friends after dirvoce so he may take the bait

The police may not pursue his angry outburst but you did the right thing in calling them because it put wh on notice that there will be consequences for his angry outbursts and you will not hesitate to involve the police

Black raven, no she didn't. she is disabled and walks with a walker so she was in the other room. She heard everything and called the police when I told her to.

Please talk to your lawyer about this.

NEVER give up an opportunity for a restraining order!!!!

All the cops mean is that they won't file charges against him.

The courts give restraining orders all the time for your circumstances: Affair, breaking into house, mom DID hear fighting, Breaking of a door and pushed up against a wall(physical assault). You need to tell them you are now afraid for your life.
*And I believe this as someone already showing that amount of an Angry outburst IS insane and capable of anything*

In every state that I know, a restraining order gives you the RIGHT to move and not let him know where you are for protection reasons. Its like being handed a golden ticket!

He might even know this if he has talked to a lawyer which is why he is sooo wanting you to believe he wants to move with you, talk to you etc. Don't give him that chance....

Talk to your lawyer and get that restraining order filed.

In the mean time- keep a recording device on you in case he comes back-and the moment he shows up-call the police!!!!

I agree, your lawyer should be able to use this to advantage. Also, continue going dark and don't let up on that. The whole reason he is starting to lose his head and make mistakes is because you are dark.

That doesn't make him regretful exactly though. Like all waywards he simply believes he can have affair cake and family cake too.

I also agree he is getting more dangerous. Make the law protect you.

Yeah, again, I am not sure why he got so mad that I didn't want to talk to him and then got up-in-arms about me taking my daughter if all he wanted to tell me was that he was going to let me go. He could have just said, "I will agree to let you go with DD. I will follow once I have gotten a job," which is apparently what he "was going to say." At that point, I probably would have said thank you and left it at that, getting my lawyer to do the details.

But he was yelling about how I wouldn't talk to him and we have a two year-old and I was acting "crazy" by walking away from him.

Ok...put a call into the lawyer and am waiting for her to get back to me.

Yeah and the whole, "I'll move with her IF she talks to me and tells me how that would work." Dude, how it would work is that we move. That's all. That's how that works.

Eh, I am getting to the point where divorce seems like the very best option. This has gone way, way past the point of no return at this point (at least it feels that way). Maybe lasting change in Plan B would change my mind. But I am not going to try to project into the future right now.

So, I talked to my attorney.

She actually advised against a restraining order at this point. She said that because I am trying to move, it could backfire on me because he doesn't have a history of violence and a judge could think that I am using it against him to get a move.

So, she is going to try to negotiate the move directly, and also get him to agree to a stay away from my apartment, under the stipulation that if he enters, I will call the police, get him arrested and then file a restraining order. She said, that if he has a history of doing this stuff, then I am in a better position on everything.

So I am still able to stay dark and get him to back off without the litigation of a restraining order (just the threat of one). Sigh.

I am so distraught by everything right now. I just want this to end and to get on with my life.

You are in the thick of it and have to just keep along the path until you get to the place you wind up in the future and if you follow MB plans, that place will be better than otherwise.

Hang on there and know that though it is most unpleasant, you are experiencing a life situation that will make you stronger (which is kind of cool).

Thanks Reading. I wish some of you lived nearby and we could all get together for coffee on Wednesdays or something.

When he dropped off my daughter today I was not there. He refused to leave my daughter with my mom because she is disabled and moves slowly. While I sort of get that stance, my IM texted him to tell him I was only a few mins away. He elected to stay outside the building with my kid. Predictably he did this to talk to me. So I walked all the way around my building and went in the back way to avoid him. My IM texted him to tell him I was inside and he seemed annoyed. I locked myself in my daughter's room while my mom let my daughter in.

The stupid door that he took off the hinges by kicking it fell on my head last night (it was propped up against the wall). It scared my daughter a lot and I definitely have a bruise (although it is not swelling).

This is just a nightmare. I am so angry and resentful and just trying not to hate him. He has affected my life so negatively, I just cannot imagine any type of recovery.

He is asking again if I want to "sit down and talk about the possibility of moving." What do I tell my IM to tell him? Nothing? My attorney hasn't sent the letter yet.
Should I tell him my attorney is sending a letter?

I disagree. And I think Dr. Harley would tell you to pursue a restraining order.
Your attorney is just trying to avoid a contested divorce.

Don't respond.

There is no stance to agree with.
He is just an arrogant [censored] and acting like one.
He's playing games with you.

I'll email Dr. Harley about the restraining order issue. She said she didn't know if it would backfire on the move issue.

She basically said to use California's mandatory DV arrest law against him if he tries to talk to me or come in again rather than the restraining order. I didn't have any reason not to believe her, but I can talk to her again tomorrow.

You could have used CA's domestic violence arrest law against him though. He pushed you into a wall and created fear by knocking down the door. Like Jedi, I don't get your attorney's advice. That she hasn't sent a letter to WH either....what is she waiting for???

I would respond with "PW said she will get back to you." Either your attorney can get a move on it and send him the letter or your attorney can call him to set up a meeting with HER. Attorney can then tell you what he offered if is willing to talk to her. If he isn't then you know it's just to get you to see him.

If there is even a slight chance of getting his agreement to move and avoid more drama and court battles, I would not ignore him with no response. But that's just me.

I did submit a police report and file charges against him. He left before the police came. I gave them his license number.

She explained that she thinks a case like this would be heavily litigated and that a judge might think I am using an isolated case I order to simply get extremely limited visitation tand dismiss such limited visiation. Even with a restrainging order he'd have the right to oppose a move away and she thinks he might do that. If he didn't, I would file it right away. She told me to get the rrstraining order if I absolutely fear for my life and safety. However, she said that it might be more effective to ask for the mediation with her with him understanding that if he comes into direct contact with me again I will file. That was her advice. I'm not sure what to say. She came highly recommended.

I sent an email to the radio show

This doesn't appear to be logical to me. This is the first time you have separated from him and he is trying to harrass and stop that separation using violence. Not an uncommon thing. Surely the judge knows that.

The fact he didn't do it while you were together is neither here nor there. He is trying to halt your right to separate from him and protect yourself from his adultery using violence. You have proof. It would be a strange judge who thought it was OK just because it wasn't a regular weekly occurance.

Does she have much experience with hostile divorce/ adultery/ violence? I made sure mine did when I interviewed a whole bunch before settling on the one most likely to be the pitbull I needed. Mine volunteered for the local shelter and she was always two steps ahead of my husband.

I'm concerned because posters on here seem to know more than your lawyer does and we've all seen what happens with the 'play nice and hope the other party agrees with what my client wants' approach from divorce lawyers.

It usually signals that the lawyer has no earthly clue and the poster who hired them is usually led a fine dance because the wayward smells blood in the water and then starts to-ing and fro-ing with the do-I-agree, do-I-not daisy petal method of decision making. This type of lawyer usually goes forward on the 'make them a logical offer' basis without any idea the the waywards plan is to stall, stall, stall until they 'find themselves' in the fog.

I'm not saying this is definitely the case with yours. I am sure she knows law even if she does not know waywards. I am just wondering if you can meet with a couple of other highly thought of lawyers to check that this would be their game plan too within your local laws. If you google family lawyers with experience of violence you should get a good one who understands the husband's mindset is to control, not comply. Some lawyers specialise in high conflict cases.



Your IM is passing on waaaaaay too much information. The whole point of having her is so that when he gets the itch to bug you, she simply says 'no, check your letter bud' and you never even hear about him asking to bug you.

Has she read the training thread? She must be exhausted constantly passing on his every idle thought, pestering you in his stead, and you are getting battered with pointless requests.

He wants to talk about your not moving? Then he can end his affair like a big boy before he is admitted into your presence. His affair is as traumatic to you as a rape and he cannot plausibly be expected to discuss anything with you while still in the middle of your rape.

Your Im should simply be saying 'no'. She is a spam filter who only passes on details like finances and when he cant make a visitiation.

I don't understand why she was communicating with him when he wouldn't pass your daughter on to your mother. He has been told when to drop her off and to whom. Where you are is none of his business. Once he has dropped her off you are the one responsible for her care and decides who watches her.

Your IM should simply be communicating by email and not getting back to him straight away. So if he can't make a visitation for example, he needs to give something like 48/24 hours notice.

She shouldn't be so available to him. She is there for you, not him.

When I used to IM for people, I would check my emails once a day. I have a life and so does the BW. The fact that the WH's head is exploding at the thought he cannot make his wife dance to his tune every minute of the day is not my concern. Nor hers.

When I initially started checking my emails I would see like five to ten of them had collated in the space of a day. Typically ranting, wanting to know why they couldn't speak to their wife 'How can we work this out without discussing it?' or 'Why won't you let me speak to my wife?'

It was precious. Just a week earlier they had told their wives they hated them and had no desire to talk to them 'except for the kids'. Now they had their expressed wish. Time with the kids and no wife but they are never happy with that. They were bluffing.

I just said 'No, BW tells me she explained there will be no contact in your letter'. 'I am just here to pass on messages regarding visitiation and finances' 'I don't see anything in this message I can pass on to BW' 'Let me know if you need to pass on messages regarding visitation and finance'.

Once they saw I was only responding to them once a day they gave up. They couldn't harrass me so they couldn't harrass her.

See how that works? she wil burn out if she passes on all this stuff. He will purposefully do that.

However if she gets in the habit of just checking and saying no once a day, she will find it ends up being just a weekly no or a monthly no after a while.

I've told her to pass on less stuff. She has agreed. My lawyer sent the letter. I've had some other bad stuff happen todsy (got laid off), so I am having a hard time. I just want all of this to end.

Wow. I can't imagine having to deal with that in addition to all of the rest of this. Praying for you.

Please do. I have let my life be hurt by this for far too long. It is time to choose lasting change, including getting rid of the conditions that have allowed my husband to hurt me for so long.

Hi guys, I wanted to ask you all about healing resources. I'm in Plan B, but I still feel like I am in Plan C because of the struggle to move as well as getting laid off. It's all making me want to go straight to Plan D in order to just get some relief.

You all were right. He is now dragging his feet on the move and saying I lied to the police. My lawyer is meeting with him this week. Ugh.

My other option is just to file for divorce here and get it over with. At this point, it's a very tempting option.

My mother negotiated with my husband (unauthorized) to allow him to stay "in his affair" for 6 months while I moved (ie. my daughter and I would move and not do anything for 6 months in the way of divorce in exchange for letting us move). She told him I would still not talk to him during this time. She said he seemed to agree and said he would talk to the lawyer.

I was semi-livid in the way she phrased it (i.e. continue f-ing around) but it does get us the heck out of here, which is good in the long run. Any thoughts?

Also, I hate how much she talks to him and tells me.

I am sorry for being behind- I've been really sick.

You already have divorce filed right???

I don't understand your lawyers logic. When you walk into a RO court, you show them your journal that you have caught your husband in an affair- he wigged out- then already had one incident (that you have your mother sign an affidavit on for 1st angry outburst). He was becoming so scary that you asked for him not to contact you because of the affair etc- then the next incident happened where the police report was filed.

Restraining order courts you can introduce all kinds of evidence- it doesn't fall under the same - evidence to convict.... Just enough to give the judge what's considered "reasonable" evidence that he has flipped & is now dangerous. An affair plus all this would easily grant you a RO.

You need to call the local woman's shelter. You have the golden ticket of a police report where they can offer you all their services. Please DO not let this pass you up!!! They have awesome pit bull lawyers you should be talking too. Please please at least do this.

All this trying to negotiate with the alien wayward is gonna bite you hard. Sorry, I see no other way. If you sign ANYTHING saying you agree to 6 months if you move blah blah, he then has grounds to say you don't really believe he is dangerous as you are willing to negotiate. (Please ask me how I know this . )

Again, I just think- go see abuse shelter... You don't have all the facts and making huge decisions without all the info is a bad idea. You might have to file divorce for you & your little girls protection. No path out of this ditch is easy - sorry!

Plan D does not help with healing. The only thing that helps is NC and self care.

You need to walk away if your mother so much as sounds the first syllable of his name. Have your IM remind him that only she and your lawyer can pass on messages. No family members will be allowed to discuss you. Legally you will have to force everything through. It's not possible to negotiate with waywards. I would interview a few lawyers as to their ideas for achieving that.

Have you heard back?

Yep - that's why there's not really such a thing as "Plan D." It's a term the forum invented, not one of Dr. Harley's terms. If you want to divorce, you want to Plan B so that you will heal.

Sometimes posters here indicate that they believe that Plan B is a plan to save the marriage and that if you don't want to save the marriage any more you should divorce but not Plan B. That is a complete misunderstanding of what Plan B does. Plan B is your only hope for healing even if you do not want to be married any more. Usually these misunderstandings are posted by people who never listened much and never followed the Marriage Builders plans very well. They had angry outbursts for weeks and called it "Plan A." Then they tried to ignore their spouse for weeks while still having contact and called it "Plan B." None of this worked and then they lose their desire to stay married and call it "Plan D." None of that is Marriage Builders, so it's not very surprising that those approaches usually don't lead to healing.

Thanks Markos for the clarification.

I do think I find myself in the latter category. I plan "A"ed OK of the allotted time period, but then I let it go on for so long that I had many angry outbursts. I ruined our almost reconciliation with an angry outburst. I just didn't believe him at all. My plan "B" has been better, but still not perfect.

It has affected me really negatively. My physical and emotional health are really bad now, although with a pretty tight plan B, they are recovering slowly (accept for my mom talking to him all the time, which she has agreed not to). I think I am still on an emotional roller-coaster and I need to get more stable before anything can really be sorted out.

But yes, I have agreed not to talk about him with others, including my mother (who has agreed not to talk to him beyond the business of passing off my daughter).

It's getting tighter everyday and I am learning to deal with my anger a lot better. Thanks guys.

I think your Plan B has been very good. Yes it's been broken, but you are consistent about sealing up gaps when they appear.

As for your Plan A being somewhat shaky, I don't see it as being really an issue. It's far less important for women than men anyway. I think the main problem with it is it has hurt you more than necessary, but since you are healing now, regrets are pointless.

I am extremely emotional and sensitive in general and apparently was quite in love with my husband, while he was not in love with me very much. I also have very strong views about marriage and have felt VERY hurt about being discarded so easily. Like a lot of people, the narrative of our relationship was very "special" and had a very "meant-to-be" vibe. Confronting that fantasy and realizing that its basically not true, has been hard. We should have been meeting each other's needs better.

I think I am also having physical withdrawal symptoms combined with depression, which makes things difficult. I am hoping after the next week or two, things will get better.

But the good news is that if I need to stay here for a while and fight to move (which I probably will), I got a job interview already. Yeay me!

Great news!

Yeah the fantasy bust up is hard, but it's good. Soon you will roll your eyes at people who say stuff like that and will begin to notice the difference between people who see love as a magic lotto ticket to be spent with less understanding than it took to earn it ; and people who understand how to care for love and make it grow like a tiny seedling. With just as much awe in its magic but with thorough understanding of how to make it and keep it.

So here is something interesting--I am living with a non-recovered wayward: my mom!

It is driving me nuts. She is defensive, exaggerates, lies and turns things around on me constantly.

She even implied that she understands why my husband cheated on me. Lovely! At times, this is only slightly better than living with me husband.

So my lawyer gave him three options today:

1) Meet my criteria for reconciliation and move with us. I will not file for divorce in this case.

2) Let my daughter and I move. I will stay dark, but will not file for divorce for 6 months (I have to wait this long anyway to file if moving counties).

3) If I am forced to stay here, I will file for divorce and he will owe me child and spousal support. I will also file a move-away petition in the court to try to get the move away anyway.

So his options for staying in the affair unchecked are not good. Number 2 is pretty much his best option at this point if he wants to stay in his affair, but he loses his daughter.

So this conversation went predictably�.time to file.

So he chose option #3?

He just stalled�which amounts to #3.

When will you be filing?

How is your self-care going?

You gave three options. You let him pick.

You are such a good wife! : )

I will start filling out the paperwork this weekend. I am also probably going to get another lawyer too. She doesn't really get how contentious this is going to be.

Again: please go talk to an abuse shelter: they have awesome lawyers & can help you with all of this as he is acting like a normal wayward.

I also just emailed the VP of operations at the small chain of gyms that he is working at that the general manager is letting him live there full or part-time. We will see what happens from that.

She quit that job a while back, but she started attending his classes again and his general manager has totally been enabling his affair by letting him live there.

Letting him live where?
At the gym?

Yep, the manager let him stay there. He has been staying there at least part of the time.

My husband put a book by an author I like in my daughter's backpack. Nice LB deposit. Doesn't undo the affair�but nice touch in getting one in through a Plan B.

This is what I suggest you do:
Have your IM send your husband the following:
"Please do not send anything to Piglet. You sent a book in your daughters backpack. Piglet does not want anything from you until you meet the conditions in her letter. You can contact me if you are ever willing to meet those conditions."

And throw the book away, as it will only trigger you

Wow Piglet spent the last hour reading your story

Mine is pretty similar in the feelings, and losing a job, lucky no kids with 2nd hubby who is tbe WS

Glad I read your post with the one ladies crazy reply on FB, the very few friends I could reach were all 100% supportive of me and I hope will prove good influences on my husband while hes in the fog. His affair is online 600 miles away. But no less devastating

youre in my prayers

So I talked to my lawyer again and he wants to negotiate now..

He said he is willing to consider letting us go for half the savings (not very much money) and willing to let me have my 401K ( a lot of money). He also doesn't want me to have a stake in some future LLC he is creating to sell an e-book. This would be a binding property agreement that would state that in the event of a divorce, this would be the property settlement. This could basically mean I am out of my marriage for 10K, as we don't have a house and all my investments are tied up in my retirement.

In terms of custody, he just wanted me to promise that I wound;t take DD out of state or to live internationally (I have family overseas). This is already the law, but he does;t know that. My lawyer encouraged me not to ask for child support outright until I actually file for divorce in a few months (I must wait at least 3 months when moving counties within CA).

All in all, a pretty good deal for him to let me move with the kid as the property agreement would be binding, I could still ask for child support and once she is moved, a judge will not order her back.

Jedi Knight,

I was planning on just sending it back in her backpack, but my IM can send the message too.

Its a SciFi author I like. We are both very into SciFi and fantasy and I remember when this first started he told me, "you don't like any of the books or things I like." I don't want to share things with you. At the time I didn't realize it was because he wanted to share them with someone else.

I am actually into everything he is into--scifi, college football and cross fit. I was a great recreational companion actually. Too bad he lost me. Oh well.

Take the deal.

As for child support, that is something you can always go back for. I agreed to no child support from my ww and filed 2 years after my divorce. I didn't even need a lawyer: I just went to the welfare department and they take care of all the paperwork.

So just plan on getting child support after divorce but don't tell anyone your plan. You dont want that info to get back to him

Yep, I plan on taking the deal. He is pretty clueless about our finances, as you can see.

My lawyer said he kept telling her that he NEEDS to talk to me. I told her that the recovery program i am following does not recommend that and she encouraged me to do it as my "family law attorney" as when things go to court it looks bad if we aren't facilitating communication. I gave her a sample of the kinds of texts he was sending me before I went dark and she finally said, "I get it. For your sanity, you can't communicate with him." So I think she is FINALLY starting to see what is going on here.

Most family law attorneys are divorced and have no idea how to recover from an affair

She actually isn't divorced. She is happily married and therefore also doesn't know what it takes to recover from an affair.

I'm struggling with obsessive thoughts, regrets, etc. Yesterday was hard. My friends want to hear updates all the time and it makes things worse. One of the issues I have is that people tell me things unasked. I tell them I don't want to know, but once the toothpaste is out of the tube�It's hard, I don;t necessarily want to avoid people who are supportive, but it might be too hard if they have contact with him regularly (through his gym).

I am still struggling with anger, depression and anxiety.

On top of it all, I can't believe I miss this person who has treated me so badly.

Also--

Can someone show me where Dr. Harley's email is on the website? I have found the radio email, but not his direct email.

Send it to the Radio Email and it is forwarded to him. mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

You need to firmly tell your friends that you don't want them to ask about your WH nor do you want to hear anything about him. If they persist, I would invite them into my life a lot less.

Are you on any ADs?

LWFH,

I am not on ADs. I need to look into it. I have epilepsy, so I have to be sensitive to any interactions my medication has with SSRIs.

I have been on them in the past. I was on them briefly in college and then after I gave birth for postpartum depression (this was before I started having seizures).

So, I am not sure what to do.

My husband asked my IM when my move-out date was. My IM just told him the end of this month or the beginning of next month when our agreement is in place. So now he has asking if he wants me to pay half the rent for December instead of my daughter's daycare (he has been paying her daycare--which is about half of what our rent is)--because I am unemployed.

I guess this is an admission that he is letting us go (he is talking to my lawyer on Friday about a final agreement). Should I take his offer? It would be nice to get help with the rent and if he does let us go, I would surely be out of here before Christmas.

Advice? I am not sure what to do with his overtures to help.

I don't see why you wouldn't take his offer of help with the rent...he should have been paying some kind of support anyway. Plan B is not turning down support he should be paying to support you or DD.

ETA, your IM can tell him to bring a post dated check to your lawyers office on Friday, However, you get the funds just keep it simple and the response should be brief.

View it as a gift from the Lord.
The Bible says that "All good things come from above." IF I were in your shoes I would consider it a gift from God and accept it (using the IM and not breaking Plan B).

I am, definitely.

He still hasn't written the cheque yet, so I won't count my chickens before they hatch, but I will accept it if he does.

I still cannot believe that he is actually letting me leave as well. But I will take all of it as a gift. My dad still lives in the four bedroom house that I grew up in on the Southern California coast. It's just him in there, so there is plenty of room for me and my daughter. It's near good schools and there are lots of activities for kids.

I have a master's degree and have NEVER been unemployed before this current layoff, so I don't think I will struggle too much to find something. Even if it does take a little time, I qualified for unemployment insurance since it was a layoff.

I am disappointed that he doesn't want to come, even if just for his daughter's sake. But what can I do? Waywards disappoint. I am sorry she will have to deal with that for the rest of her life and it hurts me to think about it...but his choices are what led to this and it is his choice to stay.

My WH just asked my IM if he could take my daughter to get a flu shot if she hasn't had one. I said OK (I mean, OK, if he wants to take care of her flue shot, that's great).

I am not sure what he is doing with the book and the money and the flu shot. It seems he is trying to butter me up without ending his affair.

My WH just asked my IM if he could take my daughter to get a flu shot if she hasn't had one. I said OK (I mean, OK, if he wants to take care of her flue shot, that's great).

I am not sure what he is doing with the book and the money and the flu shot. It seems he is trying to butter me up without ending his affair.

You are better off with him far away.
Also, waywards make terrible parents so your daughter will be better off without him around too.

Keep being accomodating to his requests until the court documents are formally approved and you are moved.
Let him think you will be great friends after divorce.

You know this is so true. My mom is an unrepentant wayward and she is currently staying with me to help me stay in Plan B (we live far away from family, so it was hard for me to Plan B with such a young kid without someone to physically pass her off to). She still says the craziest stuff about my dad, justifies her affair and acts ridiculously selfishly at times. Don't get me wrong, I love my mom, but I realize now how strained our relationship became because of her affair and her choices. That's just an interesting aside.

I didn't know your mom was a wayward herself.
An unrepentant wayward is just poison.
I'm surprised she is helping you in plan B.

Well, my parents have been divorced for 16 years now�

And I am her kid. She was unrepentant about her affair and she has always been pretty attention-seeking and selfish, but she never abandoned us or anything like. She went back and forth with my dad for about 4 years when I was a teenager, but she was definitely around and I saw her almost everyday. I was old enough by then that I just sort of went between their houses whenever I wanted, but I mostly lived with my dad.

She has basically said that she waited to step out on my dad until we were old enough that she didn't have to fight for us.

She sounds like my ex wife
I think she would go back and forth with me if I hadn't of gone plan B with her after divorce.

Yeah, living with my mom is hard.

This morning she was on the phone with my uncle and she told him I got a job offer. I didn't. I have an interview and I corrected her. And she said, "same thing." After the call, I told her they are not the same thing and explained the difference and told her to please not lie or embellish the truth. Then got really upset and called me a "[censored]" and said she was leaving. She has a VERY tenuous relationship with the truth and whenever anyone calls her on it, she gets very upset.

I wish she would leave to be honest as living with a wayward is hard, but I don't have anyone else to run interference with my husband at the moment.

My WH is stalling�he told my lawyer that he is sick and couldn't go in to review the agreement.

UGH.

So now what?

He can't stay sick forever.

If he won't give me the deal, I file a court motion to move and file for divorce.

I am definitely in the hate zone with this man.

Hi All,

I have listened to the anger management 101 thread and I think it was tremendously helpful. Are there any other anger management resources that I should be looking at? As I have said before, I think my anger contributed to our failed reconciliation attempt when he had written the no contact letter and was willing to move (and I was just so, so angry and he split again). Of course, he went straight back into contact with her and I went into Plan B, but I still want to work on my anger issues, no matter what.

Others will be able to provide better details and a link for you, but many people use some sort of a Bio-Feedback device to guage themselves.

LTL

I used to become angry when I was younger.
I found the key to be balance: sleep, exercise, good food.
As Dr. Harley explains you need to calm yourself when you start to get under stress. I recall reading Rudy Guliani's book "Leadership" several years ago and he wrote that on the very night of the 9/11 attacks, he read one of Churchill's books before bed. He made sure he got sleep and stayed calm!

Last night I prayed about it and this came to me�.when I start to feel angry, ask myself, "Will this action or thought benefit me and the other person?" and let that guide my action.

I used it today with my mom and it worked! I need easy rules of thumb in order to function. LOL.

God is good.

Have you seen this?


How to Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person

Thanks for the tips Brainhurts.

Actually asking myself if this action or thought is beneficial to me and the other person is really simple and really effective.

i will definitely get the biomonitor as well.

So, WH talked to lawyer today about my move. She told him that I accepted his terms for the move and he said the following that doesn't make any sense:

1) He didn't want to get a divorce and he hasn't talked to OW in 3-4 weeks.

2) Is scared that I am going to move down there and just divorce him in 6 months.

3) Is annoyed that I don't talk to him.

Lawyer handled it well by saying that if he meets my conditions, I'll have a conversation with him. The rest of that mess doesn't make much sense. If it is really over with her, then why not try to prove it to me? If he doesn't want to get a divorce, then take pro-active steps for that not to happen. It seems pretty simple.

So, WH talked to lawyer today about my move. She told him that I accepted his terms for the move and he said the following that doesn't make any sense:

1) He didn't want to get a divorce and he hasn't talked to OW in 3-4 weeks.

2) Is scared that I am going to move down there and just divorce him in 6 months.

3) Is annoyed that I don't talk to him.

Lawyer handled it well by saying that if he meets my conditions, I'll have a conversation with him. The rest of that mess doesn't make much sense. If it is really over with her, then why not try to prove it to me? If he doesn't want to get a divorce, then take pro-active steps for that not to happen. It seems pretty simple.

Do you have an IM?

Yes. He knows he may try to prove to the IM that he is meeting my conditions if he wants to talk to me...I think. At least I know my IM told him that.

If he is serious then he will go through the IM.
Sometimes when people are in the fog they get overwhelmed with legal issues. He is probably trying to maintain some level of control over the situation.

I know. I don't think he is serious. At least not yet. So Plan B continues.

Can I ask (without any real expectation)--does anyone actually recover after being in Plan B for awhile (for me its been about 7 weeks)?

My husband told my lawyer yesterday that he hasn't seen OW in weeks and doesn't want to get divorced. None of it means much because beyond annoying my IM all the time and sending me a book, he hasn't done anything to meet the EP requirements to stay married to me.

I was (am) resigned to a divorce, but the fact that he said those things (which again, don't mean much), make me think that he is a least *thinking* about manning up. Who knows?

And when I say recover, I mean marital recovery--not personal recovery, which is always a byproduct of Plan B.

Some people have recovered after being in Plan B...don't have numbers but some have. If the marriage isn't recovered, it is usually because the BS has a WS who is too lazy, thoughtless and isn't serious about recovery anyway...and you don't want that. That would be a continuing hell to live in.

Too true. I have learned to only watch his actions. When we were in love, he would actually ask for more accountably in order to tame his renterish tendencies (although I didn't think about it that way then). He actually opened up a credit card once and didn't tell me and charged a bunch of money. I found out while looking through his email (I didn't think he was having an affair and he wasn't at the time. I would just look every now and again because he would be signed in).

I confronted him about this. When I did he threatened to leave (this is his typical control tactic) because I was "controlling." Did I mention that I was 8 months pregnant and he was unemployed? Yeah, so during that fight I did somethinf I had never done before and invited him to leave if he wanted to. That snapped it out of it. Then he requesyed that we open a mint account and list all of our accounts and assets as a way to keep him accountable. So he knows his IB and SSL are there lurking. He has tried to tame them at least to some degree in the past. He clearly didn't go far enough though.

The longer in Plan B the better so far as marital recovery goes. The BS is tough and healed with a high bar. The affair relationship in irredeemable tatters after SO long trying to make a pig fly.

That's why Dr H gives a two year timescale.

My WH let my lawyer know that he gets why I want to move and thinks it's better for me and my daughter in the long run. But he is not willing to sign off until he has a lawyer look at the agreement. He is scared that I'm just going to go down and divorce him (I am not sure why he cares if I divorce him at this point). I'm just so tired and just want to go home.

I could use some prayers.

You've got it.

Thanks. I don't understand why he is stalling. He offered to let us go and I agrreed to his terms. I also still gave him the option of reconciliation if he follows my conditions (which he doesn't want to do, of course). He doesn't want to stay married, but doesn't want me to leave? I'm extremely frustrated.

Because he still wants to try and control you. He wants his cake and eat it too.

Do you have to find a job if you move or will you be staying with family?

With family, but I am looking for a job as well. I want to stay with my dad for a while which my daughter will love and rebuild my savings and life a little bit. I was thinking I'd move out in a year or two after things stablized.

The problem with my WH is he seems so nice and amenable to everyone else, even if he is a horrible monster to me or just stalls because he knows he can. He claims he is no longer seeing OW and will follow us to LA in the future...so I am not sure what the problem is at this point, except that he wants to stay for OW.

Don't try to outguess his thoughts.
It will stump you no matter what.

Simply follow plans and create a great future for you and your child and if you WH ever gets a place he could truly recover the marriage, there will be little doubt and you will take it from there. Otherwise, you have other things to tend to and do.

The Marriage Builder plans will guide you while your head and heart are all over the place and while you survive the crisis.

My IM finally told him that the alternative to not letting me leave is divorce complete with spousal support and child support. My lawyer is really playing footsy with him and I don't get why. He is will just stall forever and ever. So I finally just told my IM what the alternative would be. I don't think he cares so much about the divorce...but paying spousal and child support would kill him. He has a hard time even supporting himself because of his spending, so he'll hate that.

I'm a bit sad today. My marriage is definitely over.

I wish I did not have to deal with move-away and custody issues with him at all. His stalling/delaying craziness is not worth it. I just want to move away and move on and I feel he is keeping me stuck. He doesn't want the marriage, that is clear. He doesn't even see his kid all that much. So why the games? Waywards are horrible. They like to stick the knife in and then twist as much as possible.

I'm going to be on the show on Monday.

Next Monday 12-01?

Yes, next Monday. Sorry, not today.

My WH is asking to take my daughter to see his brother for a weekend. I don't think that he is taking the OW, but I still don't like the idea of him taking my baby. I have never been away from her for a night.

Just have IM say No then.... Don't even sweat it!
What you do or don't do isn't gonna change a way wards mind!!
If you say yes, they tell you that it should have been no...
Nice? Should have been mean!
Mean? Should be nice

So listen- everything you do won't be "right" to him anymore!

So just say No & move on. Don't give reasons- no justification.... Just no!

I actually do think he ought to take her.

I understand you have never been away from her overnight but it is something that you need to embrace as a single mother. You must learn to be okay with it. Learn to find ways to keep busy and to sleep with her away. (BTW, we all totally relate to the sensation of angst over it!)

You love your child and you are her rock but he is her father and allow him to step up to the plate for her. If he blows it or creates more problems, deal with it then. Then, you will know where his fathering is going without you in the mix.

Yeah, I am letting him. The ONLY reason he wants to take her overnight is that his family will be there. He would not take her otherwise because he doesn't want full responsibility for her.

You're doing fine. You can only give him the opportunity to take responsibility. The rest is his call.

Husband stalling on agreement.

UGH. UGH. UGH.

Hope things work out peacefully. Hard to deal with these things during the holidays.

Stalling is to be expected. A wayward won't comply with a decisive way forward. It's expensive, but knowing to expect this helps.

Yes, decisiveness implies a commitment to something and an intention to carry it out. Not virtues of a wayward. If they were, we wouldn't be in this mess.

WH has not signed agreement, but is paying for DD's school for December (1200) and paying me 1K in child/spousal support voluntarily for December so I can afford to stay for Dec.

I am not sure how he is affording all of this. That is slightly less than half of his take home pay. Oh well, not my problem! I am just happy he is doing it. Thankful that he is taking a bit of responsibility.

Wow that is rare for a wayward to actually pay at all, let alone voluntarily.

How is your plan B self-care going? What are your plans for Thanksgiving? Stay the course. You're doing so well.

Hi BrainHurts,

My self-care is OK at best. Since I got laid off, I am trying to look for jobs, deal with these legal issues and potentially move. I also have to watch money because of the lay-off.

However, I am going to church and hanging out with friends as much as possible. I also managed to potty train my kid, which is great! I kept feeling bad about that, but it was impossible with my WH flittering in and out of my life.

I am spending Thanksgiving with my mom, daughter and some of old-lady friends from church (I love them) It should be a good time. I am planning on spending Christmas in SoCal with my Dad.

Yeah, his waywardness is strange. He is sort of half coming out of it, I think; although I try not to think too deeply about it.

Fantastic!! Enjoy your time!!

He figured out how to message me today. Time to change my number, I guess. I'm so tired. I just need to move on.

Yes change your number! This whole time you were waiting for this. Seek freedom from those traps!

Yeah.

My dad apparently put a message on his FB today stating "you would not be in this situation if you had not cheated on your wife" after he posted something about missing his daughter.

My dad should just ignore him, but I can't say that I don't agree with the sentiment.

Ugh. Sorry to hear this is so hard.

Don't know what to say about your Dad, except it seems that social disapproval is a huge part of exposure. Having people be blunt about waywardness is good. But telling you about it right now might not be good. You need peace and not to get sucked in right now.

When will you be changing your number?

Love it!!

My number will be changed on Monday afternoon after I talk to the Harleys. =) Actually, I could probably do it this weekend and just send Joyce the new number.

It's great for your dad to put such pressure on him - but when you are in Plan B he shouldn't talk to you about him.

My dad didn't tell me. WH got through my phone block and sent me a text about it. I didn't answer. I just deleted it and blocked the number he sent it from.

I called my dad and we had a good laugh about it though. My dad hasn't said anything until now to him. My brother and a few others sent him emails/texts, etc when I was doing exposure a month or so ago (I met him through my brother's college Christian Fellowship, so he is particularly aghast). In any case, I guess pops couldn't contain himself anymore because he keeps posting pathetic things about missing our daughter. Of course, he doesn't have to miss our daughter...he doesn't have to be wayward. He chooses to be. He is choosing his misery...and my dad decided to point that out. Thankful for pops!

WH just told my IM that he would let us move to Southern California and that he would follow sometime in 2015.

I'll be talking to Dr. Harley tomorrow about what to do next.

Let us know what he says.

x 2

**fingers crossed for you**

Excellent!

Hi All,

I hope you enjoyed my call today. My WH sent my lawyer the property agreement. The property stuff is mostly fine, but he also added this stuff:



"Additionally, on good faith, PigletWiglet will:
1. Not file for divorce until after August 1, 2015, should she choose to divorce.
2. Should PigletWiglet find employment with an insurance offering, WH will be included in that package but must reimburse **** for his share of cost.
3. Not block WH's phone calls, Skype account, texts, or email addresses. Additionally, PigletWiglet will inform WH of any and all email and phone number changes. PigletWiglet will also get a new phone and phone number by the end of the first week of December and inform WH by text from said new number so that he can cancel her old number.

It is my full intent to get my [censored] together, launch my writing career and find a job in the OC/LA area that will allow me to be an active participant in my child's weekly, if not daily, life. I am still open to the possibility of reconciliation with my wife.

The above are the changes to the outline that need to be in any legal documents. Said documents will be reviewed by legal council. I understand that some of these agreements are in good faith and cannot be upheld in court, while some can.

I hope to God I'm not going to get stabbed in the back."


I like he is scared of being "stabbed in the back." We wouldn't want that to happen, would we?... Waywards. OH GEEZ. Anyway, I don't want to agree to not file for divorce and/or talk to him. That would be crazy. I am SO MUCH BETTER now that I don't talk to him.



** Moderator note: edited to remove names

I would't worry about it. You can still file for separation and probably even divorce...he can try to sue you lol...good luck with that!! Same with talking or not blockingt him. There is a ton of ways to avoid all that and continue to Plan B him. I would just go along with it to get moved. The whole thing is stupid and not enforceable. He already admits that so don't worry about it. Get the agreement done and MOVE!

Edit the names out.

I hope you didn't die laughing over that!!

It is so typical for a WS to object to Plan B because they HATE losing control over the BS!

So what do I do? Should I just agree to it and then do what I need to do after he signs the thing? I just want to GO!

Yes

It doesn't even say you agree to talk to him or will respond. All it says is you won't block him, etc. If you block him, oh well. If he shoots off emails to a dummy account, oh well. If you never reply, oh well. The whole thing is dumb and has ZERO teeth to it. Keep his EXACT words.

If I happen to file for divorce in three months...oh well..

Pretty much

Plus you may have signed under duress so oh well.

PW, I don't recall if you are still using your mom as IM but if you need an IM just let me know. I have been an IM before. You can click notify on this post and ask a moderator for my email address. Or if you want to discuss anything offline, you can ask for my email.

PW, I just want to make sure you are not beholden to any of this legally? Most waywards will try to FORCE their spouse to allow their contact and that is a big NO-NO in Plan B. That is not something you want to agree to under any conditions. Plan B comes FIRST.

Are you able to continue your Plan B?

I am in Plan B, but I just want him to sign the agreement so I can move.

Will your plan B be protected?

I am trying to do that, but he wants me to agree to communicate wth him before he signs the move-away agreement for my daughter. At this point, I don't care. I just want to move. I can go back into Plan B in three weeks after I am moved. He just needs to sign the freakin' thing.

Gotcha. Most WS's are infuriated about Plan B and don't like losing control of the BS. This is a pretty classic stunt.

Yeah,

My lawyer was confused his statement that I was going to "stab him in the back" because I agreed to his property and custody terms (which were reasonable, actually). She wondered what I would stab him in the back doing. I said, I would move, then file for divorce, which is what he doesn't want.

What did your lawyer think about the enforcability of the added terms if you later violate them?

I would not sign it even though you are hot to move.

You would offer a counter like so:

1. Should PigletWiglet find employment with an insurance offering during separation, WH will be included in that package but must reimburse **** for his share of cost.
2. PigletWiglet will provide that WH is able to communicate financial and child visitation information in a timely manner.

Why would she counter? WH's terms are crap. Countering is only going to waste more time and money...and it's still crap. This move could have happened a long time ago. PW's plan B isn't even peaceful because this move or filing is constantly an issue.

PW, about the only thing I would possibly change is that he can't file for divorce by that date either. That way he can't file D (or thinks he can't) and throw more possible monkey wrenches in the mix. Even if he did file, that he allowed you to move would work against him anyway but maybe include that he can't file for D either...not that it means squat or that you can't file for legal separation as soon as you arrive in SC. You do not have to wait three months for that and can request an order for child support etc if you file for legal separation.

I haven't been in your shoes, but my sister has. So I will give you the advice I would give her...this counter:

1. Neither will file until May 2015 (6 months, no more. It will take that long for you to be 100% settled anyway.)
2. Keep WH on health insurance if payment received by 15th of each month, including the current. {could add the following} If payment is not received on time, you will assume he intends to file for divorce and remove him from the policy as well as no longer be obligated by #1.
3. You have previously arranged timely communication concerning your child. If WH would like to re-instate open communications, he is aware of the necessary conditions that must be meet. You are willing to build a loving marriage but cannot reasonable be expected to do so while he continues his affair.

PW, what exactly is your lawyer preparing?

If you can swing it, I wouldn't even look for a job and focus on moving, getting settled and healing more. Between living at your parent's house, receiving unemployment and requesting child support...could you go without working for a while? The health insurance for WH would be moot then and if you file for separation a new employer or carrier may not even allow him to be added so that would also make his stipulation moot.

On the good faith stuff, I don't think I have to agree to anything. I don't think that actually goes into the agreement.

In any case, black raven is right, this has gone on too long. I should have just packed up and taken off a long time ago, but I was stupid about it.

A court could actually order me to communicate with him about my daughter, but until some judge makes me do that, I really don't want to.

You weren't stupid, PW but at some point you need to make a decision and go with it. I hope whatever your lawyer is preparing it is looking out for you...and you only. It is not her job to advise WH about anything or protect any of his interests in any way, shape or form.

My lawyer is preparing a post-nup. He is giving me most of the savings and allowing me to keep my retirement accounts in exchange for not having a claim on his "future earnings from his writing", so its a good deal for me. I am keeping real assets and he his keeping "future earnings" which have no real value at the moment. He hasn't published a thing in the 10 years I have been with him...so I am not too worried about it.

On the custody stuff, my lawyer advised that I just ask for child support AFTER I move, which is the right way to go. He has asked that neither party file for spousal support in the event of a divorce, which is fine because I will be living with my folks and I have always made much more than him (except for right now because I am laid off). If he were to prevent me from leaving, I would sign no such thing and he would have to pay me spousal support.

But yes, my lawyer basically said, "once you get down there you can do whatever the "heck" you want in terms of custody and he can't do anything about it. Also, nobody can legally require you not to file for divorce. A court might order you to communicate with him directly, but until that time, you don't have to."

Also, on the insurance thing...I could add him to some future plan, but the chances of him being able to avail himself of it are very low. It would probably be an HMO or something that he culdn't even use in Northern Cal because it would be out of network.

I am very tired. All of this back and forth and rigamaroll makes me a lot less likely to want to reconcile with him ever. Like I told Dr. Harley today, I am very, very ambivalent. Just getting the heck out is of the utmost importance.

I have to look for work in order to get unemployment, but I am taking it easy. I am usually very hard driving, but I am just so exhausted and want an end to this nightmare.

Sounds good. When is the deadline for him to review/sign?

Believe me, I made this decision a long time ago. I'm not staying no matter what. He cannot order me to stay here. He can only make a stink about custody, in which case, let keepy daughter (he won't do that). The deadline is now. My lawyer is writing up the agreement.

I am only stupid in the sense that I followed the law and respected his rights. I just should have left. He would not have done anything about it.

Believe me, I am not ambivalent about leaving at all. I couldn't care less about leaving this man at this point. My greatest fear right now is seeing him in any way, shape or form. I can't wait to leave, I just don't want this held up because he wants to find a way to text me his tantrums.

Sigh...my lawyer didn't say anything to him about any of his good faith clauses...and he sent her a ranting email apparently about not blocking his phone.

I really do hate him now. We are now in the hate zone.

So is he not signing now?

Is he mad that his conditions weren't put in? Not sure what you meant in your prior post.

She is still writing up the final document. She just didnt say anything about it yesterday when she emailed him to say she was writing up an agreement. And he sent her a ranting email.

Ugh. I gave him a phone numbef and email address today. It will really go to my IM, but I hated even giving him the impression that he has access to me. I really do hate him.

You guys are so right.

My lawyer told him that I was going to get a phone that he could call regarding my daughter only and he refused. He said he needed to reach me in "emergencies." Um, no, he doesn't. This is all a bluff though.

I told her to tell him that I am moving at the end of the month. He cannot prevent ME from doing that. If he wants to have primary physical custody of my daughter in that instance, then he is welcome to do that. He will not do that.

I broke my solid Plan B. I hate myself.

The big thing is to not beat myself up and get back on track.

Hi PW. Maybe your current budget may not allow you to afford a new cell phone, or to pay for the service.

Who knows, even if he bought one, it very well could easily get misplaced.

There is No Law that says you must ever answer a phone call or text and if it remains dead or turned off, you would not even know.

After he doesn't get through for a while and throws a hissy fit, probably to your IM, then your IM could reinforce that only pertinent portions of his communications WITH HER will ever get through to you.

Anything that does not meet your stated criteria would necessarily not fall into an Emergency Category.

Good Luck and keep his contact shut down.

LTL

I don't know why your lawyer would open her mouth and say anything vs just getting the dang signature and letting WH think whatever moronic stuff he wants to think. You don't have to respond or pick up the phone...and can still block him.

Yeah, I just need to get the hell out of here fast. I am going to just go if I have to. I seriously cannot take this and I am not interested in making this marriage work at all anymore.

Make the agreement very simple re: communication. Don't add 500 different restrictions...they will ALL be IRRELEVANT since there is no law that will MAKE you answer his phone call or email.

"BW's contact email is pigletwiglet@yahoo.com. Her phone number is 555-PIS-SOFF"

The end...that's all that needs to be said. Your IM can access the email as she normally would have. For the phone, you can just let his calls go to vm. AFTER you move, you can change your phone number or block him. There is NOTHING requiring you to take his call or read any email. You and the attorney are making this much more complicated then it has to be.

AFTER you move, your IM can give WH more specifics like the email should only be used to communicate about DD's visitation or whatever. If WH can't buy a clue and harasses you/IM then you go file harassment charges and/or get a PO. Do not delete any crazy voice mails or emails either. Let him hang himself which give you evidence for a PO and custody.

If he's not going to sign something simple, then start packing and don't have your lawyer/IM telling him over and over that you are leaving or give any details. Just go and file for legal separation in SoCal. I would look for an attorney there now so that you can file as soon as you get there. You already have WH's emails to IM/lawyer basically saying he will let you move with DD but he wants to be able to contact...that is not going to look good for him...and show he is a passive-aggressive jerk. A judge will not be amused given his cheating, living at a gym, breaking down your door, etc.

You are trying to negotiate with a crackhead. STOP!

What do you mean you broke Plan B?

I agree with tips the others have given you, give him a burner phone number and let all the calls go to voicemail. You can even have someone else mind the phone/screen the calls. An email addread ditto. It sounds like you are doing this.

So why is your Plan broken?

If you don't already have your own copy of this email, be sure to ask for one...and of all the communications with WH. The lawyer you end up using in SoCal will want to see all of this...it will show him how he acts and what to expect from WH. Don't wait to get these from your attorney. When someone is no longer a client, attorneys tend to blow a former client off and take forever to give them a copy of their file. Don't put yourself in that position.

Keep all texts and emails from WH. They can help you.

I broke Plan B by talking to him at the door. He was yelling at my mother that he was going to take my daughter if I leave and he doesn't sign the agreement.

I went out and asked him to confirm that if he wanted to keep me here, that he wanted a divorce. He said that "it isn't a trump card and that he would be overjoyed to keep DD."

Its all stupid posturing. He cannot take care of her alone. It was upsetting nonetheless. Never seeing or talking to him again cannot come too soon. I pray that he falls off the face of the earth.

Call the cops immediately if that happens again. Make it an unpleasant consequence if he abuses your mother, or anyone else.

Indeed.

I feel so bad and held hostage by him.

Is there anything you can do for yourself to get your mind off him? Going with the assumption that you will get to move south, can you look into resources down there that will make your life easier?

Also, is there some more immediate self-care that you can do for yourself right now? It is stressful to be out of work, but it won't be forever, so what can you do for yourself with this gift of time that you have right now.

Or plan something fun with your daughter? A relaxing bath? Something that makes you feel good and cherished (you can cherish yourself)...

Lawyer called today and said we had an agreement now that I got a "batphone" for my kid. Programmed his number and her grandparents numbers into it. It's just a basic dumbphone that can only make calls. I mean, what else does an almost three year-old need. I allowed her to call him today on it, so he has it now. My lawyer gave him the email address and my IM changed the password so that I can't get into it at all. She'll be charged with checking it. He still needs to "sign on the dotted line" so there are still opportunities to stall and jerk me around, but my plan is to stay as dark as possible throughout so he can't blame anything on my behavior...and also so I don't get upset about the things he is doing (which is ALL upsetting).

I also asked my lawyer to just to paraphrase my husband's emails to me and to forward them directly to my IM because he says things that upset me so much. My lawyer thinks I am a nut to be so hurt by WH's empty threats, but that's OK. I would think I was nuts a few months ago if I hadn't experienced this. I would not have understood the concept of triggers from infidelity (or at least it would have sounded weird to me). But she'll forward me emails in which he says he'll "overjoyed" to take my daughter if I leave because I need to "get my life together and I think my DD is a burden." Ummm...no. I'm the one that has cared for my kid for the last 8 months while he has been conducting his affair. I have half a mind to let him take her because it would be so effective in interfering in their relationship, but I actually love my daughter and I don't want to expose her to that horrible, boundary-less person.

I am looking forward to going somewhere safe, where I can be cared for. The stress of not having a job and having to care for my kid and mom have gotten to me. Everything is a huge mess and I am trying to keep my sanity while packing, etc. Getting there will be a huge relief. Two more weeks!

I think it's fantastic that you got creative to provide access for your DD3 to him, make an email act that only your IM has access to, and your lawyer to summarize all of his emails to be sent to your IM and remain in a dark Plan B. I commend you.

I hope that others who are in Plan B will learn from this. It's so very important to remain dark so the BS doesn't have to deal with the WS abuse.

Good job, my friend.