�ll start with he simple facts and honestly answer and questions as well as be grateful for any advice and guidance. Also, be patient with me as I don�t know if I have all the acronyms down.

I am the husband and the BS after 19 years of marriage, one that has had its ups and downs. We have 3 children, 1 adult who still lives with us, 1 away at college and a high school student. My wife previously had an affair and if I had found this site back then I may not in this situation again, because after reading as much as I could here I see many mistakes I made. Mostly in regards to being controlling and demanding.

going back to Aug/Sept I noticed changes in her behavior and red flags went up, I started checking cell phone records and various other means of communicating. I couldn�t find anything definite but I knew something was going on so I remained diligent. One day I had access to her cell phone a restored deleted pictures and found some very sexually explicit pictures and immediately challenged her on them. I got a bunch of lies that I knew were lies but I didn�t push the point to hard and actually complemented her on the pictures and told how hot I would have found it if she sent them to me. She took the opportunity to downgrade herself and I stuck tot the compliements, but let it go.

Then 1 day I followed her to work and saw her card coming off the block of the guy I suspected she had something going on with. I challenged her and got more lies, but now I had the more definitive proof I needed and dug deeper. Although one day I told her I don�t like the person I am becoming by all this checking up and if there is someone else tell me now and I�ll let you go if needed for you to find happiness. Obviously I was told there was no one else. Then a few days later I had enough and challenged her on it and she admitted there was another man. Told her I was disappointed, but didn�t think it was a marriage ender if she is willing to end it and we leave the past behind us and move forward. Kind of left the conversion end there.

Then over a series of 2 weeks of talking I reminded her she is my wife and I love her, which I truly do and this was after much reflection and realizing I don�t want this to work for fear of being lonely or the future. I truly do love her, and she loves me but isn�t in love with me. So after discussion I told her its her decision if she should end it or not and how we move forward. So last Sunday she contacted him and put an end to it, her choice. She was then miserable the next few days which I figured was the mourning period, where I tried to be comforting, not discussing the situation but telling her I am here for you if need to talk. Even tried sending cute messages, being affectionate and nonjudgmental. I would give her my full attention when she spoke, but said we need full honesty. Well I found out on Thursday she did text him a bit, which would explain her better mood and willingness to have sex with me. Which didn�t go totally well because of the ghosts I of her past I felt.

I figured we were making progress so I told her I was disappointed she texted him but we are all human and make mistakes. And asked her to please recommit to ending and she said she will try. Then yesterday she sent him a text again, I observed it and she owned it. It started a long conversation again where I got I am trying but I am not finding feelings for you and I told her we can�t work on us with the OM in the picture, you need to let him go. She said she isn�t sure she can, so I left the house. A few hours after I was gone I got text asking if I was coming home and I told her I wasn�t sure and she indicated she was just checking to see if I was ok and I said I was. That ended our conversation for the night.

I did end up spilling my guts to a close friend and few other other people who we socialize with and that felt so good to finally talk to someone about it. I think I got good advice from them because it generally lines up with much of what is said here. And they agree if I love her I should stay in the fight. I did end up spending the night out of the house and came home after I knew she left for work, but before the kids got up. So to them while I am sure the sense stress and tension I tried to make it look like a normal day. Again I have a student who lives on campus, but she was home on break while this was happening and kept giving me compliments in front of her mom for stepping up my game and being more loving towards mom. So I am sure she suspects but would never ask.

I won�t be surprised if she resumed communicating with him last night after I left and today, so I may have committed a major error by not sleeping at home and have to go back to the beginning.

I know at some point they will need to know and since the OM is someone that I used to call friend until this broke and will interact with as part of an organization that neither of can resign from at this time I will need to let word get out around there. Although I believe many already suspect, but I don�t anticipate much social pressure from them to do the right thing based on past observance with similar situations. Its a group of guys that believe let other peoples business be their businees.

I think I am in plan A and from what I read here, I need to give it 6 months, is that correct and what do you think my next steps are. Continue the good morning/night kiss. The subtle touch of hand, or other body part because it feels kind of ok to quote her. I may have gotten smothering at one point and realized it and pulled back some. I guess let her know I am no longer hiding or supporting the affair, if asked what is wrong I will give the honest answer. Continue to build myself and take care of the family. Do I keep telling her she needs to end it with the OM, r do I let ride when I try to implement plan A stuff.

Hi Phoenix.

You did not make an error that took you back to the beginning...you have always been at the beginning and not made any progress. You need to properly expose the affair to your family and children, especially since OM was once a friend...and expose to other beneficial targets as well.

When was her previous affair?

Welcome to MB.

Welcome to MB, and I'm sorry to hear of these events in your marriage.

As well as the exposure targets identified by black_raven, you need to expose to this man's wife.

There is no such thing as "an organization that neither of can resign from at this time" in a free country, and I presume you live in one. Your wife is probably absolutely unwilling to resign from this organisation right now, but that is what she will have to do if she is ever to rebuild her marriage to you.

Please make sure you sleep in your own bed every night until and unless you make the decision to move out and go to Plan B - and you should not do that for six months at least.

There is more that you need to do, but there is little point our talking about it until you

• expose the affair to this man's wife, to your kids and to this "organisation".
  
  
• get your wife to leave the organisation and agree to have no contact whatsoever with this man.

Thats what I feared we were still at step 1, which is ok, we can't fix years of issues in a week. She just came home for her lunch break and we talked for the 1st time since last night. I told her who I let know about the affair last night and I will own its existence going forward and if anyone asks I will answer honestly. I also told her the kids suspect, I can tell by my daughters behavior and they need to be told mom has a boyfriend and that I want to work on saving the marriage and she will have to answer for herself what she wants.

I was correct she is back to texting him, last night and today. She also stopped by to see him this morning before work and amy or may not go after work. The opportunity is created because I will be with our son at a school event she won't attend because of timing from her getting out work and its start time. Also, she want to attend her workout class tonight.

The previous affair was back in 2011, from roughly January until June, that one got exposed because I got a phone call from his then wife. They have since divorced.

I was deciding what to do when she was struck with a major medical emergency that hospitalized her for over a week, so I took care of her and it kind of naturally ended at that time with some demanding from me and him caught in his own firestorm. So I took her back because I felt throwing her out at that time would make me look real bad. We never worked on anything and I harbored bitterness and controlling behavior.

I may be fighting a loosing battle, but at least I willing to give it a go.

Don't warn her about exposure. You have to do it all at once or she will pre-empt you by telling everyone you're crazy or that you had agreed that you were separating and would begin seeing other people.

Read Exposure 101 and get started.

Thanks SugarCane, he is already divorced from his wife not from the previous affair with mine, but another one he had after that one was exposed. he is currently living in a friends house, also a member of this organization and he cannot afford to get his own place. I am sure the members of that house are already aware of the affair and probably supportive, because when their own son was having one they closed ranks to protect him.

So if she leaves and goes to him that already full house would have to make room for her. I can expose to his kids, but not sure how to do that properly. His ex won't care she is engaged to a new man herself and left him way behind.

She is not a member, me and him are. The can't leave is because of responsibility I feel to the community because of the position I hold with in it

You have got to EXPOSE. It cant be a casual exposure over weeks, it needs to be massive and all at once. I am calling BS, on your statement about the organization you are in. That is where you need to expose also.
Follow the steps, read the first thread on this forum about EXPOSURE.
Do not get cold feet or be wishy washy about this step as so many people are.

Sounds like she has poor boundaries with men. The reason you harbor bitterness from her previous affair, is you didnt expose or implement extraordinary precautions.

You are not to blame for the affair, but it does sound that you are owning your part of the marriage issues.

Of course she is "back" to texting him and seeing him...contact has never stopped. Your WW would find opportunity to see POSOM regardless of any school event so don't get caught up in thinking she won't create opportunities to see OM. Given that she is a serial cheater, you don't need to be doing Plan A as much as demanding she end her affair and expose it.


When you say the 2011 affair was exposed, do you mean the BW exposed to you only or that you exposed the affair to your family and friends?

Hi ThePhoenix, welcome to Marriage Builders. The others are correct in that exposure affords your best chance at saving your marriage. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure ruins them. Your goal is kill the affair. Killing the affair will allow you to save your marriage.

Please go read the exposure thread in my signature and come back and lets talk.

Perhaps YOU are the one that changes this unhealthy and unsupportive culture. If not, you really don't need "friends" like these in your life.


I like to stress to my daughter that the most non-exclusive non-judgmental social groups in every high school in America are the burn out druggies. ANYONE with some money, some drugs and willingness to buy and use drugs can be a member. There is absolutely nothing special or valuable about being a member of a group where anyone can be a member no matter how despicable, mean, intelligent, or desperate and whose primary values are:

1. Don't talk about what we do;
2. Don't make me feel bad about anything; (The point is not feeling at all)
3. If you get caught, I don't know you and will rat you out before you rat me out.

Anyway, if your "friends" won't hold her (and you) accountable for their behavior it's probably because doing so means addressing their own issues and behavior and concludes with the fact that you likely need better friends.

Resign. The organization where your wife met and had a relationship with OM will get by without you. They will be just fine.

NebDane exposure will happen there, most already suspect I think. So I will have to confirm it snd find people who support saving the marriage. So I need to be sure who my allies are. I think the best way for me to start is to talk to the husband of a couple we are friends with, different circle than this guy was in and we are close so this conversation wouldn't be out of bounds. He is the guy who tell anything you want to get out and the 2nd point there is his wife is a very close friend of my wives and my wife confirmed she hasn't told her about the affair even though she know about the previous one. I think she would help apply some pressure to her to end it with the OM.

To put an end to organization comments, I cannot leave right now but will if he won't after the exposure and she commits to work on the marriage. Just no reason to leave now because their paths will not cross because of it in the near future and it will cause major upset because of my position. So I will leave that wreckage when it is time to save the marriage. Otherwise if she leaves the marriage I will stay.

Black_Raven, in context of this board you are correct it wasn't exposed as much as revealed to spouses and directly affected people. But not made public.

Where I struggle is how to expose and to who, but it feels good that the process has started.

We probably just had the best conversation on her lunch break which is longer than average then we have had in years, never mind since this started. She actually leaned in to kiss me on her way back to work, but didn't commit to end it yet. She did tear up when I said the kids need to know and got bothered when I brought up his ability to provide security and financial support compared to mine and my willingness to do it.

I told her if she leaves her best move isn't to go and live with him but get her own place so she can find herself and what makes her happy without being dependent on anybody. I also continued to tell her if she doesn't do that she is just replacing one relationship for another and thats not moving forward in life but repeating the past with new players. I think that hit home as she than came to me to have conversion about our our son is doing in school.

TP, you don't know who will or won't support your marriage, so you need to expose it to everyone. Even if someone won't support your marriage, you benefit from them knowing, becuase the more people who know, the harder it will be to hide the affair. People do tend to hold others accountable.

Expose to your circle of friends, family members, children, the OM's facebook contacts and this organization. Don't waste time sitting aorund trying to guess who will or won't help.

And depending on this one guy to "get the word out" misses the point. We are not trying to spread gossip, but to enlist people to help you. Most people dismiss gossip.


Not sure of the relationship to this organization so I won't comment here.


Please read above and stop struggling. Tell everyone.


DO NOT forewarn your wife about exposure. She shold have never been told about this. Just go tell your kids asap WITHOUT HER.


oh good grief. Sir. Please don't speak psychobabble to your wife. She knows exactly who she is. If she does not, just pull out her drivers license and look up her name. IT is not her "best move" to move out, so please stop talking about it.


Nice way to push her away more. Lecturing her just makes you more unattractive to her.

]
Doesn't sound like you care too damn much either. Telling her to move out to "find herself" [which means nothing] is not the statement of a husband who is fighting for his marriage. Complacence reflects a lack of caring.

I assure you that your wife knows where she is. She does not need to go "find herself."

Very eye opening and need to give this a lot of thought because I don't like the culture and want it to change

\

This is a distraction. Just make up a list of your friends and family and send them an email about the affair, using the templates on my exposure thread. Call those family members who are very close, like parents, etc. Tell your children ALONE [without your wife] and send facebook messages to the OM's contacts using the instructions on the exposure thread.

You need to read the Exposure 101 thread. It is all in there on how to do it, templates of letters to send, etc.

Negotiating, lecturing or trying to point out pitfalls(as you are doing with your wayward) is futile and frankly just stupid. So, stop doing that.
If you are intending to save the marriage, then expose. It must be done far and wide and all at once(all family both sides, friends, OM friends, OM family, Facebook friends, clergy, this organization you hold so dearly, etc) DO NOT WARN THE WAYWARD-just do it.
Then continue to plan A, so read up on that.

Now is the time to be a man and step up.

MelodyLane thank you thats I slap I need!

I do care, and get lost in words and over speak and ouch about the lecturing, but accurate when I read it back. Maybe I need to stop talking and just be me and work on building the love bank.

The finding herself was a counter to a comment she made and seeing what you said may be hard words for me to swallow, but very eye opening.

I need to run, but will check back later as it looks like I still have some learning to do

Are you interested in A#3? That is where you are headed. You do not seem even in two pages of a thread to be interested in following the *very narrow road* to end this A and create an affair proof marriage going forward.

You aren't listening to the veterans very knowledgable advice here. You are just coming back to detail your latest 'great conversation' you had with your fogged out wayward wife.

You are married to a serial cheater on her second (known) affair. If you really want to turn this around, you need to get serious about this.

The way I am reading this is that both affairs are with the same OM, is that correct? So your wife just resumed the affair with her OM from 2011? If so you can see the affects of keeping OM in your life, through some silly organization. Because you felt an obligation to your community, you kept him in your lives and waalaa, affair resumed. Can you see what a BAD idea this was, and why you need to not do the same thing a second time around?

You need to stop talking to WW and expose. Stop worrying about building a love bank. Telling your WW to go find herself or that she looks hot despite sending sexual pictures to OM is doing you no favors and sounds foolish.

I am still unclear what you mean by the above post but if the first affair was not exposed to family and friends you should expose that affair too when you expose this one. Your family and children should know that WW is a repeat offender. Expose it ALL.

What should be his verbage in exposing the previous affair, along with the current affair?

Most newer posters are afraid of destroying their Wayward Wife's reputation and bringing up the previous affair along with this one may come off as spiteful to him.

I don't recall one of the exposure templates guiding someone doing multiple exposures.

Does he do one distinct set of exposure letters for each individual affair, or does he combine both of them in the same letter format?

LTL

Nice catch on this being a resumption of a previous affair....

the good news in this information is his wife doesn't present as a serial cheater who can't be trusted around men at all. This is ONE affair that resumed because "no contact" wasn't established and maintained properly.

How far away does OM live? Does OM have more entanglement in your lives like through your children? Can you move soon? How long until the youngest graduates high school? Might be time to downsize and simply move fairly far away and get a fresh start. As part of your exposure and shock & awe plan, perhaps you could slap a For Sale by Owner Sign in the front lawn as an indication of how serious you are that this MUST stop now, "no contact" is required (there is no "try") and you are prepared to stand and fight for her (and your family).

It gets complicated to slap a for sale sign on the house without first explaining to the kids that you don't know for sure where or when you are moving. If you last child is a senior it shouldn't be an issue as it'll take months to sell, close and move out anyway but if youngest is a freshmen it gets more complicated and something to think about. You MIGHT just mention that you'll be talking to realtors about selling the house. Your wife didn't intend to upset the entire family. She likely didn't think any of this through. She just felt what she felt and acted upon those feelings with no regards for others or the consequences to herself and others. Selling the house is the logical result of HER behavior. You are not obligated to stay in that area near OM because it would be nice and not make her feel guilty. You don't protect her from the consequences of her choices. Of course, you don't have to actually accept any offers. Putting a house up for sale isn't actually selling it. It's just part of a process --- initiated by your wife's actions.

Mr. Wondering

Can you please tell us your exposure plan? Like actually list out who you are going to be exposing to. And tell us exactly what you intend to tell these people.

You realize that exposure needs to be done all at once, right? Do NOT trickle expose.

Ok to many people to thank, but I listened and went back to re-read exposure. Today I targeted key friends and let them know what is going on. Parents are out of the picture, only her mother is alive if you want to call what she is doing in a nursing home. Found an unexpected ally who told me of someone the OM was involved with and she now knows, but she said they were involved in the past and currently are not. Hum, I wonder why that over....

Anyway, lets hope this works because I expect some wrath tomorrow. So guys whats next I may not fully understand Plan A from some of the comments that came back today.

So how many of OMs face book friends have you exposed to? What about your wife's other family members? How many of these friends have called your wife so far to discuss the affair?

What about the OM's girlfriend?

This sure does not sound very comprehensive.

Your children? Family members? Listen, half measures will avail you nothing except a pissed off wayward.

Get ready to get your [censored] kicked for nothing. You just brought a pea shooter to a gun fight.

IF you do things to the total and strict adherence to what just has been suggested, then this typically what can occur.

Read WifeDivorcing's topic thread:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2791622#Post2791622

LTL

Phoenix,
you are doing it wrong. Exposure is supposed to be far and wide and immediate. You now allow your wife to spin the story and paint you as crazy and say that you were seperated or going to divorce or whatever. You control the message when you hit all the targets at once.
Have you told your side of the family including your daughters. Have you told the OM family, have you told this precious organization of yours, have you told all her Facebook friends, have you told all the OM Facebook friends, have you posted him on CHEATERVILLE.COM.
Your "targeted" approach is just plain naive.

One step at a time, do exposure CORRECTLY, then you can continue Plan A.

Do you have the book "Surviving An Affair"?

You've got to quickly regroup and do a major exposure.

I'm sure your are known in your community to be a certain way. Such as reasonable to work with. A gentleman. Even Steven. Someone everyone can depend on and so on. A peacemaker. You build consensuss within you community before you act. And so on.

To expose far and wide might stand out as 'out of character.' This situation is a call to action a different way. You can't dabble with a few little helpers. This is about standing up for what YOU believe in. Poor boundaries and making nice in your community got you and your wife in this state. Your wife has poor boundaries around men. You are plain afraid to go to war for your marriage.

You will not be able to get through to your wife when she is in what is known here as 'being in affair fog.' YOU have gotten in your own way. The veterans here are giving you a plan. You are taking the far and wide exposure plan and downsizing it to fit 'Your character' and that in which your community including your wife and her affair partner expects of you. Stop it. This is war and you can't do what is expected. It's unflattering to you. It's unattractive to your wife. Your risking your marriage to remain inauthentic to what you really believe in. Your wife is cake walking you to maintain her affair. It worked before and its working just fine again. Far and wide exposure is the jolt you both need. You don't discuss and get her approval or lecture her with this new found wisdom. Don't over think. Just do it.

Like the others have said, fight. Expose. Be relentless.

Or else you will later regret not doing everything you could.

There's no guarantees on the outcome in this game but playing hard gives you the best chance of success, is the honorable thing to do and will help you come to terms with this if things do not work out.

"Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft." - Teddy Roosevelt

The purpose of this forum is to engage members in discussion in how to use MB to end the affair and recover your M.

Ignoring questions isn't going to help you.

You were asked specifically who you would be exposing to and what you would say so that we could help you tweak your plan and maximize your results.

You were also asked about if this is actually a resumption of Affair 1 or if this is Affair 2.

Not only is it is really rude to not answer when posters have taken the time to help you, but you are only hurting yourself. You have some of the best MB posters helping you. Take advantage of it. Don't cherry pick the advice you want to follow - that will only BACKFIRE on you.

Don't have the book, I hope in my next reply you will see if I did a regroup and major exposure or not.

You a fairly accurate assesment of the kind of person I am, I guess it comes across in my writing.

I have stopped discussing this with her, still have polite conversations about the things we need to in regards to the kids and ect. When the topic comes up my response currently is until all contact with the OM is severed there is nothing to discuss.

I am not ignoring questions, or trying to be rude. I have limited time to come on this MB while managing the house and working my full time job and working the advice. I have already set many other commitments aside to focus on ending the affair and I told them the affair is why I can't give them my time.

I am hoping you summerized the key questions and apologize if I still miss answering a key question.

Exposed:
- the affair at the organization, so its out there for everyone.
- the only family he has
- his best friends
- her friends
- to a girl he was only "friends" with that had an emotional breakdown while chating with me about this.
- to my friends

The only exposure that hasn't happend yet is the children and that is due to a lack of seeing them while I was in contact with all the others. Still unuser how to handle with the one who is away at school since I think this should be a face to face conversation.

Resumption of Affair 1, thought I previously answered that.

I can do quick check in's to see the responses, but may not allways be able to reply right away.

A resumption of A#1 takes the serial cheater status off the table, which is a good thing because serial cheaters are much harder to recover with. BUT, it also means that this A is extremely entrenched. These are AP's who have been together now off and on for years, and are likely *in love.* Do you get that? Do you understand you are not just fighting against some fling?

You failed at breaking up this A and protecting your wife and family from its resumption the first time. Do NOT make the same mistake twice. This time your wife will LEAVE YOU for him. Do you understand the seriousness of this? I don't get the feeling that you do, based on the fact that you are still talking about your involvement WITH the OM in some organization. Is this organization and your community reputation worth giving up your WIFE and FAMILY for???

You need to stop being 'busy' and start making killing this A once and for all priority #1.

The phoenix, what EXACTLY did you tell these people? How many so far have reached to your wife? What is your wife's reaction?

And you can tell your other child over the phone. Phone exposures are just fine.

Trust me I understand the seriousness of the situation and how entrenched he is I saw the way she acted after she ended it last week and then the way she acted when contact resumed. The mourning seemed more severe than when her dad died and was borderline depression, or may actually have been for all I know.

I cannot emphasize nothing is more important than the wife and family and will resign from the organization, sell the house and move if needed. That doesn't need to be questioned anymore.

My biggest failure last time was not exposing the affair and trying to work through "ourselves". Now that this has been exposed it is amazing the support I am getting, I may have underestimated a lot of people and how hard they are willing to help me fight for my wife and family.

Can you please answer this question?

While the message was slightly modified based on who I was talking to or messaging based on why I felt they needed to know the general theme was

my wife and XX are having an affair, this is a resumption of a previous affair that occurred from mm/yy to mm/yy. This time it has been going on since mm. Believe or not after all this I still love her and want to make the marriage work. Then for some people I asked for their support and help to bring this A to an end as well as rebuild the marriage and restore us to a healthy family.

If it was people close to him it took more of a tone, hey here is something you need to know about this person you think highly of and then put it out there about this being a resumption of an A and if they felt this wrong they should speak to him about ending this.

I do know her phone blew up a bit and I am not sure of everyone who reached out to her, but I do know of one key person who she respects used the words disgusting, dispicable and so on and hammered her pretty hard about her selfishness. Also, made it clear to her there is no more thinking, sitting on the fence but she needed to make a decision does she want the OM or her husband and family.

Now my WW's reaction wasn't all the anger, venting and threats that everyone said should come, of course there was a lot of crying. It seem oddly more like a veil of illusion fell and she was back in reality. She started talking in terms of us, our family and things we want to do or should do in the future. Topic she has been avoiding for awhile, but brought up last night.

She indicated she wants to make our marriage work and its over with the OM. I told her I hope she means it this time since you already told him once, there is no need to tell him again, contact needs to end as of now and if reaches out to you you need to let me know. She agreed to that, we shall see if it holds.

Now what I need to guard against is if this a ruse to make me think she is working on things. I guess actions over the next few days and weeks will let me know if it is a real effort or going through the motions.

What matters are actions. He should not be able to get ahold of her because she should be changing all of her contact information and sending him a no contact letter. How far away does this guy live? Here is the checklist and I will post the no contact letter in the next post:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Her contact information is being changed and blocks have been in place for his numbers and IM's.

Same town, she has agreed to take extrodinary precautions to ensure their paths don't cross since he should never be near her job and she shouldn't need to go to that section of town. Many people want him out of the orgainization over this, so there may be pressure for him to leave. All of our friends know he can never be at the same social event as us or her. Which shouldn't be an issue because we plan on spending most our social time with other couples we are close to who support excommunicating him from our lives.


These have been done although there may be more questions about the A, but at this point I feel I know what I need to know. Time to leave the past behind us and build a new future



These are things that I would call are work in progress and will continue to be for a long time to come.

Can you be more specific?

Has this been done yet??

Just because they are argreed to doesn't mean they are completed items, these I veiw as very specific action items that have to be worked on each and every day going forward and so does she.

Although after signnifcant discussion it was decided relocation at this time isn't going to happen, we want our youngest to finish high school and financial considerations as well make it hard to move at this time, However, because of the way the town is going on top of everything else we will be saving with the goal of moving in the future. However, if there is any failure in maintaining seperation from the OM then the house will be sold and we will move sooner than later.

We have begun making plans for activities that we enjoy together and started planning a trip in March that will be just us.

Money has never been unaccounted for so I don't ancipate that to be an issue, but will be watchful.

Yes, in addition to being hurt and upset they seemed a little relieved to finally know why there was a lot of tension in the house. This ruined our holidays. Our daughter was the toughest on her and I think the wife has a bit of work in rebuilding the relationship there and with the boys as well.

Your high schooler will be done with school in no time. Something to do TOGETHER while you work towards this goal is undertake some home improvement projects together. Your relationship could use the time together and working and completing and enjoying such projects together brings couples closer and it's a good distraction from the difficulties of recovery. Also, many people wait until just before they sell to do those projects they always wanted to do in hopes that they'll maximize their sale price. Do them NOW so at least you can enjoy them for a few years before you actually sell.

I hope you and, in particular, your wife view this as an opportunity to teach your children. Sure it's uncomfortable now but how she (and you) handle yourselves here on out models extremely important values to your children that they otherwise would have been deprived of.

Our daughter was 5 when it happened to us. We told her when she was around 10 or 11 (she asked...we didn't lie or hide it as she is/was aware of our work here on MB and our MB friends). We regretted it for awhile. Young girls can be tough. But our daughter trusts us to be honest with her. To speak the truth and she has learned people make mistakes and they can try and succeed at making amends and she has witnessed forgiveness and grace. There are lingering consequences....as a 15 year old now, it has been used as a manipulative tool or a excuse for her mistakes very occasionally; but, conversely, our daughter has also counseled and supported many friends enduring the same confusing issues and questions your children had previous to being told. In fact, one of her friends has been holding a secret for a long time. She is aware her mother has been cheating on her father for many years. Mother doesn't know she knows and dad is, we suspect, oblivious. This poor child has suffered psychologically holding in this secret. I'm soon to intervene and speak to her father (nervously). It's just too much to ask a 15 year girl to tell her father such information. I hope they are NOT swingers or something and Dad already knows and it's their big secret as that will be even more uncomfortable than him being devastated but we shall see. The daughter could be mistaken as well. It's not like she's going to give me proof so her dad propably won't believe me but he needs to know this is what his daugter thinks is happening. Either way, at least the daughter won't have to carry this burden with her anymore and we'd have never known if our daughter wasn't informed extensively about marriage, relationships, infidelity and forgiveness.

Godspeed.

Mr. W

p.s. - if the organization you work with is the Masons...get out ASAP.

It was the affair that was responsible for that, not the exposure. Ruining the holidays is a tiny effect of all of this. Saying the affair ruined the holidays is like saying a nuclear attack delayed mail delivery.

Its funny you bring this up some the best times we had as a family is when we were renovating a room or doing some other home improvement project because the kids love to help.

There a few things that need to be done sooner than later just as maintenance on the house so they will get priority.

Alright, that made me laugh.

The discovery/proof of the affair and the misteps I made trying to bring it to an end is what created tension and ruined the holidays. The exposure a few days ago, put us on the right track.

Just wanted to chime in and say my parents moved me twice in high school (Jr. and Sr. years) after being in the same place for the first 16 years of my life, and I turned out fine. My dad lost his job two years in a row, and the moves were both several hundred miles apart.

I don't hate my parents at all for it and if they were up against what you're up against, I would certainly have understood (have you exposed to your son?). I actually look at the moves as a blessing because I had been an introvert before the relocations forced me to learn to meet new people, and ultimately I ended up in a community with much better opportunities than the one I left.

It wasn't a cakewalk but it actually did make our family closer because I spent more time with my parents and siblings than I did with my friends.

Yes, all the children know and they are being very supportive of us working on rebuilding our marriage.

I know things work out well for most kids who get moved around in the long run and I am sure he would adapt and build a life in any new place we move to since he is very outgoing. However, there are a few more things at play here, most of the towns we are looking to relocate to the schools systems are significantly inferior to the one we are currently in and we can't afford private education.

Then there is also financial considerations in relation to the value of our house and what we owe, we really need to knock off the 2nd mortgage before we can sell and have money for a new place. Also, since he is our youngest the next house will be a downsize as we anticipate at least the oldest and probably our middle child to be living on their own in a few years.

So there are practical reasons driving this decision at this time, but it isn't off the table should a drastic need arise for us to do it to protect the marriage. For now its been workable because of the extraordinary measures that my wife has been taking to avoid the OM and have no contact.

She has been putting in significant effort into our marriage, me and the family.

Since I have received good advice here, I feel it is only courteous that I give some kind of update.

Well it's been a few weeks and my wife is either an academy award caliber actress or is fully engaged in rebuilding our marriage. It feels like we are back to when we were dating and first married with the level of interest and caring we having been showing each other. She constantly tells me how happy she is and how right this feels. Every night it seems we both look forward to coming home from work and spending time with each other. She does nothing to trigger bad memories with me and in some recent social situations has shown how her boundaries with the OS have changed and how willing she is to protect my feelings and our marriage. She even asked if on our next anniversary which will be our 20th if I would renew our vows. Of course if things stay as they are I am all for it.

Obviously I remain dilligent in checking up on her to ensure everything is as it seems, which so far it has all been good. No red flags or signs of anything to be concerned with. Now I know this is the prudent thing to do and part of working the plan to build a better marriage, but it also becomes a self inflicted wound because it reminds me of the affair and person I was when I suspected the A and the things I did and how bitter I was.

So the only trigger of the past that creeps up is when I check up on her and then my mind runs with thoughts from the affair, not sure how to handle this.

Did she ever write a NC letter?

Yes an NC letter was written and I handed to the OM so I know he got and read it.

That is great.

So how much UA time are you getting?

on week nights we set aside at least an hour for just us to talk and be together after we both get home from work, its kind of a catch up on the day pattern we have started to develop. Then most nights we try to spend another 1/2 hour before bed to discuss our plans for the next day or two.

Then on the weekends we spend more time together and have been trying to do at least 1 recreational activity together.

In the past few weeks we have created more good memories than I can recall from the past few years.

The issue is things are going so well I feel bad if I check up on her and when I do that is the trigger that brings back bad memories, particularly since one of the love busters for her was she felt I was controlling (and on some levels she was right) and its a behaviour I have work hard to correct.

So I feel like I am in self perpetuating loop.

You need to be getting a minimum of 15-20 hours a week. How can you accomplish this?

Please listen to the clips in here.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I'll given a listen this weekend, but I think we are getting a lot of UA time in.

I pretty sure its safe to say we are easily hitting the 15 hours a week, but it wouldn't hurt me to take another look to see if we can get more time in.

Just wanted to say congrats on everything so far. So awesome to read stories where things work out.

Dr. Harley recommends to sit down on Sundays and to schedule your UA time for the week. Will you do this with your W?

Thanks it seems to be working out because its something we both want and are both working hard at.

Yes, we kind of already do this, but its more about the upcoming weeks events and things that need to get done. So going forward we will just make sure we add UA time as one of the things that must get done.

I think I get your point now, the more of this time we have the less I will feel the need to check up. Thanks.

Exactly!! The more you build a romantic, interdependent, complete transparent marriage the less you will need to check. We tell BS to keep up the snooping to verify NC. The more recovered your marriage the safer you will begin to feel.

Make that UA time as important as you would a doctor's appointment. Stay the course, friend.

I think we have had a great couple of months, we have been spending lots of time together and really enjoying each other�s company, even during a couple of stressful situations we have had to manage, not marriage or affair related. They were just the kind of things life throws at you, but we attacked them as partners and got the issues handled.

We took a weeklong vacation down to the Keys with a group of friends last month and had one of the best "just us" vacations either of us can recall. It was great because it was with a group of friends that didn't have to be together all the time, so we got a lot of alone time in addition to social time with the people who are the strongest supporters of us rebuilding our marriage.

I think it�s safe to safe we are in better place then we have been in a long time, now she is suggesting dates for us to go on. So that brings me to some questions.

When does Plan A evolve into In Recovery and is there any are real difference once both partners are engaged in the marriage as the two seem to get interchanged here a lot. Does recovery ever end and you find yourself in a new normal for the marriage, i.e. one based on the MB principals.

Also, I would like to hear some thoughts about this:
For the 1st time in a couple of months, I recently had a weird twinge of self-doubt and insecurity but not because of my wife, but because I learned of a few �friends� who not only knew something was going and choose to gossip among themselves about it, but not clue me in. I feel that was a betrayal on par with the affair. Am I wrong in feeling that way. As one tried to defend themselves by saying how to you tell someone you think their wife is cheating. My answer was the same way you talk about it behind their back, but if you are true friend you tell them straight up what you observed or know. So for now they are out of my life and I don�t know if they could ever regain my trust beyond being acquaintances who I might talk to at social events when our paths cross.

They would be dead to me. I would not acknowledge them. Though I would go NC with them. You know they will be there you don't go. You run into them you quietly leave.

Has your wife sent a NC letter to her AP (that you have witnessed and verified) along with agreeing to EPs and a plan of recovery?



These people are ENEMIES of your marriage and you should cut them off entirely.

An affair is the highest possible threat to the survival of your marriage that they could have been in a position to help you with and if they were too cowardly or indifferent to do so, they are like cancer to your recovery and marriage going forward.

This will continue to bother you if you try to maintain a relationship. They have to go. You can replace them with friends who support your marriage and have moral courage.

I think every BS goes through this process of finding out who in their social circle has moral courage and who does not. It's unfortunate because you are correct, it is like a second betrayal and the cumulative effect can be tremendous.

They failed the biggest test you could have given them. Ditch 'em. Don't have to be spiteful about it, but leave them behind. There are too many good and honorable people in the world for you to waste any time on people who you know aren't either of those things.

I've befriended a few awesome pro-marriage couples from my church in the fallout of my situation and it really feels good to have both a fresh start and the type of moral support you need after something like this. I don't miss the people I've left behind and you probably won't either.

I'd also add that you'll notice quite a contrast going from your friends who enabled the affair to people who would never do so.

The enablers will gaslight you in their own way, trying to make excuses for your WW (or themselves), along with trying to convince you that there is some sort of defensible "middle ground" in this sort of thing that they stood on. Basically they're going to try to convince you that you are overzealous and it will make you feel like terrible and conflicted because your conscience will be screaming at you in contradiction to their words.

And then when you find a pro-marriage couple to befriend, you'll usually find that not only do they agree with you, they've got OTHER friends (or experience themselves) who are BSes and can practically finish your sentences because they are so well acquainted with what the BS has to suffer through. They will be a Godsend to you, and you'll know it when you see it.

My $.02.

Thanks TheRoad & axslinger85.
We have been essentially in NC with them since the decision was made to fight for the marriage, intuitively I knew they wouldn�t be a part of the support system I needed to get through this, so I just stopped talking to them. Also, it seems those who are supportive of our marriage have eliminated them from their lives, I guess it was a situation of once true colors are known good people didn�t want to associate with them. So as far social events at friend�s houses and close gatherings I am not worried about running into them. However, our town does have a lot of events and places to go out to that we could cross paths at and I won�t leave because they show up, I will just continue to ignore them. I guess I just really wanted to get validation I wasn�t being vindictive, but protective of the marriage.


When I first exposed I got 2 different reactions from people, some gave a simple ok or the patronizing "sorry to hear that" but they didn't seem at all shocked or surprised. I generally had no further conversations with them and neither has my wife. As I mentioned to her what I discovered her reaction was interesting, first she seemed embarrassed that they were not as discrete as they thought and then I sensed an anger from her that they allowed her to travel a destructive road for their entertainment.

Then there were others that were shocked or reacted angrily. Those who were shocked or angry the follow up statement usually went something like �we love you and XXXX (my wife), what are WE going to do� At that moment I knew I wasn�t in this alone and who would be my support system going forward. These are also the same people who urged me to �man up� and fight for the marriage and the family and not to walk away. Rather than casting fury at my wife for being wayward, they urged her to end the affair and offered her support to save the marriage without judgment about what had been done.


Earlier in the thread I talked about the NC letter that I hand delivered to the OM and after he read it informed him of my intention to save the marriage. We have done the EN's, so this is the piece we might need more information on, EP's and plan of recovery? We have discussed how we will protect our marriage in the future but I suspect that isn't a plan of recovery.

ThePhoenix, this is the most important paragraph on this page, because it is critical for your recovery. Most marriages do not recover from infidelity because they don't follow these steps. After the gloss wears off they end up in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage and are more vulnerable to an affair afterwards. When recovery does not take place, the resentment of the betrayed spouse thrives and grows year after year. You don't have to be like that if you will follow this program.

I would follow the program for recovery outlined in Surviving an Affair and use the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Please do not make the mistake of cherry picking the program, because that will not help you in the least. Trust me, because many of us have tried that. Learn the program in its entirety: eliminate love busters, spend 15+ hours per week of undivided attention time OUT ON DATES, learn how to use the policy of joint agreement.

If you can do this on your own, you will create a romantic, passionate marriage. If you can't do it on your own, then I strongly suggest you sign up for the Marriage Builders program and let a professional guide you and your wife.

Whatever you do, don't stop now. The real work should start now.

I haven't read the latest posts on your thread (I apologise), so I cannot say yet whether your own marriage is ready to move on from Plan A to Recovery. I will try and catch up later today.

However, in principle, Plan A ends when the affair ends and your wife agrees to join you in rebuilding the marriage. If the affair ends because she's been dumped, but she's still moping around and rejecting you, you are not entering Recovery. Recovery is joint effort, while Plan A is not. Plan A is one sided, because you are doing all you can to avoid love busters and meet those needs that your wife will allow you meet (i.e. - possibly none), but you have no expectation that she will reciprocate. Plan A is an extreme form of giving and it is not sustainable indefinitely, nor should there be any attempt to sustain indefinitely.

When your wife agrees to work on the marriage (i.e., enter Recovery), she might do so with very little enthusiasm or hope, because she might still be depressed about the whole affair, or about the state of the marriage that preceded it - but it is not enthusiasm that defines Recovery. It is the fact that it is a joint effort.

In Recovery, both spouses commit to transparency and accountability, to UA time, and to avoiding love busters and meeting ENs. They agree to listen respectfully to each other's complaints, and to tackle those complaints. They learn how to negotiate safely, and, crucially, they learn and practice POJA.

There is a list that is often posted here, that I don't have to hand, that is taken from the SaA book. That is the definition of what couples should do in Recovery.

I think you will agree that there is a great difference between Plan A and Recovery. As to when Recovery ends; the couple maintains a Recovery marriage for life. Since this is the marriage that they should always have practiced, in a sense there is no end to Recovery, but the marriage does not have to be defined as "in recovery" for life. Recovery is identical to an ideal, MB marriage.

I'll pick the books up and read them, hopefully she will to. Since this was a rekindle of a previous affair with the same OM, I know full well not to cherry pick, but stick to what has been proven to work. While I wasn't on this site last time I was trying to end the affair with access to these resources, you can say what I did was a cherry pick of these principals, but more accurately it was a haphazard application of disjointed information I picked up from the various web sites and friendly advice. It resulted in ending the affair, but without true exposure and with me being very resentful and demanding of "compensation". It also became the nuclear bomb I dropped to win arguments. While we had a good few years I was the classic bitter spouse who in hindsight can see she was making efforts early on and I was rejecting her and practicing love busters and then by the time I was trying she had given up and we limped along in the crippled pre-affair version of the marriage that brought us to here. Considering the success I have had this time to this point following these principals, no cherry picking for me.

Not sure why, but I have no resentment this time around, I think part of it is the A has been exposed so I am not living with a secret or its pain and when she decided it was over she came back all in.

To be honest this survey scares me �Sexual Experience Inventory�, when we first married she was only 19 and her experience was normal for a person of that age, I fear I may learn things done with OM that I may not want to know about. However, I guess if we don�t experience the uncomfortable from time to time we are not growing and not doing it would be cherry picking.

Not sure if there is enough detail in prior posts for you to get an accurate sense of where we are at, I will honestly answer any questions you have that could help you decide. In the meantime based on what I read in the rest of your response maybe some this information will help.

There has been complete transparency even when I haven't asked for it as well as me giving it, as for her love busters they are easy for me to avoid. No bringing up the affair or being judgmental because of the past, including her in financial decisions, which I always did but it's the perception of me telling her what I think we should do instead of asking for her opinion, easy change since we almost always are in sync there. Don't try to be controlling and be supportive of her decisions, only if I agree enthusiastically, otherwise we negotiate lovingly until we both agree what is best and as silly as it seems closing the closet door (yes really) after I get dressed, for some reason an open closet door really bothers her. Being a guy my love busters are pretty simple, putting others before me or making me feel like I am not a priority was a big one, well lately she has made me feel like I am the biggest priority in her life, so I couldn�t be happier.

We easily spend the 15+ hours of UA time by having planned and spontaneous dates.

In general our home just feels happier and we get a lot more invites to go out with other people now.

TP, I tell you this from personal experience: don't fly by the seat of your pants here, because half measures will avail you nothing. I say this as a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks. I wasted 6 good years yapping on this forum and cutting corners and never moved my marriage forward. We limped along for years.

So I will share with you what I learned from going through the Marriage Builders program: schedule 15+ hours per week out on dates. Don't wing it. Time that is not scheduled is too easy to put off. Once you fall back in love you will quickly notice a difference. And if you get 8-10 hours, you will notice it has little positive effect on your marriage. Strictly stick to 15+ hours per week b y scheduling your time. If you do this for a few months, it will become the most enjoyable time of your week and you won't allow other, less important things to interfere with your time.

Since the program DOES NOT WORK without this step, you and your wife need to sit down every Sunday and plan out your week using this worksheet. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf


I would tell your friends you are busy and do something more important: go out on 4 - 4 hour dates. I know my H and I rarely have time to go out with friends because we would rather spend our time alone. Please don't squander valuable time with friends that could be spent on dates!

MelodyLane I appreciate all the advice and effort you have put into helping us move forward, so thank you.

We actually plan our upcoming week on Saturday afternoons since that works for us. We always get a huge chunk of time together on Sundays since that is reserved for just us recreational type activities. With riding season here we can be out of the house together for 6 to 8 hours easily but only put 4 hours into our allocation because that includes travel time and our destinations vary. Then we pick 3 nights in the upcoming week that are our nights to get out of the house and do something. Since our kids are past the age of needing babysitters we then have flexibility to do things spontaneously on top of that.


One of her lover busters was not getting out of the house enough socially, so this needs to stay in the mix. We just don�t count this as UA time when we plan our week

Gotcha. That will work as long as it doesn't interfere with your alone time. When she falls in love again, she will be much more stingy about any time with friends/family.

It sounds like you are on the right track! Good job!

People like that are toxic influences. They do no one any good to have around. Cut them loose and don't worry about it for a minute.

***edit***

Non-MB advice. Please familiarize yourself with MB or refrain from posting

I think we have taken a baby step in this direction. Last weekend there was an event we were supposed to attend and instead she said she wanted to stay home and spend the night with me. We did nothing special just went out for ice cream and caught up on some recorded TV shows.

Also, there is a bike event that we have been involved with for the past 9 years that we help out with coming up this weekend. Usually she helps with the registration and then goes to the end site to help setup while I do the run, usually giving an invited guest a ride on my bike. This year she is insisting that she rides in the run with with me.

I am wondering if some former WW's might be able to give me a bit of insight as to what they experienced in regards to friends and other people's reactions after exposure and you settled into rebuilding the marriage. I have noticed recently what few girlfriends my wife has or maybe had seem to be to busy to talk to her and don't keep her in the loop about different silly things going on. It�s like they are pulling away and while that has created opportunities for her to lean on me more and more for emotional support. I am also beginning to sense she is feeling a bit isolated. I guess this is to be expected, but it hurts me to see this happening to her and I am not sure if I should be doing anything other than being there for her.

Are you getting any UA time? If so, how much?

This past week we already hit 20 hours before our plans for today, we will easily get 4 to 6 hours this afternoon and into the evening. Do that isn't an issue.

We talked about what I was perciving this morning and while she said there is disappointment in not being included as much by her girlfriends lately it's ok because it leaves more time for us.

Sir,
Since the affair partner lives near your wife's work you will need to move far away.

Whatever happened about your membership of this organisation that you could not resign from?

We have had significant discussions on this topic and currently we are not in a financial position to move at this time, we have put a plan in place to be able to move in the future. In the meantime extraordinary care precautions have been agreed to and are being followed.

I am still a member at this time, my wife and I have discussed what my current commitment to it is and what it will be in the future with the understanding our marriage comes first. We do regular checkpoints on my membership there and have agreed I will resign at any moment either of feels our relationship is at risk over it.

Surprisingly the organization has been very supportive of us rebuilding our marriage and ensuring we are protected.

How far in the future?
This is an important part of recovery sir.

Probably not fast enough by the standards here, it can be as quickly as this time next year, but more likely 2 to 3 years with the financial plan we have put together.

We have a common goal (to stabilize our finances and move) that we both enthusiastically agree to and are focused on achieving, I feel that is also a significant step in out recovery

I am very confused about how this mitigates the damage from keeping the OM in your life? What does "regular checkpoints on my membership" actually mean in RealTalk? I don't think that you and your wife are very good judges of what constitutes risk because we all see you taking very needless risks with your marriage.

In order to recover from an affair, no contact with the OM must be achieved for life. Every time either of you sees him, puts you both back to day 1 of recovery. Her feelings will be perpetually triggered every time she sees him, his car, his home. It is like an alcoholic who stays in the bar all day and has the occasional drink. Eventually he just goes on a binge.

This is how on again, off again affairs occur. If your wife works close to the OM's home, then your marriage is at risk. If you are in an organization with the OM, that keeps you in some type of contact.

Ending all contact with the affair partner is STEP ONE in recovery. Step one has to be achieved before you can go onto next steps because otherwise this will all be a waste of time.

It seems like you believe you can recover without really making any changes. Please do not make the mistake of believing you will be "different" and get away with this. I have been here for 14 years and know you are headed for disaster.

Half measures will avail you nothing, I assure you. Take that from the queen of corner cutting.

There was a recent poster in this forum that returned after an Absence. He never moved and his wayward wife resumed the affair. Upon his return, he confessed regret at not following Dr. Harleys methods and said he didnt have the strength to deal with the affair again and was filing for divorce.

When was the last time you had any form of contact with OM?

When was the last time your wife did (including seeing him in the neighbourhood)?

When was the last time your wife caught so much as a glimpse of him?

Phoenix,

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this the second affair your WW had with the same OM???

I can't gage how deeply addicted your WW is to this OM, but it sounds like it's a powerful attachment. Does your WW post here?

Was the OM exposed at the organization you are both a part of?

Gamma

I think that your finding this site this time has not made a difference. You are still avoiding facing up to the reality of this affair, and what it would take to end it.

The fact that is is the same OM from 2011 has been missed in the volume of posts. In fact, it is highly likely that the affair never ended in 2011, and what you found in 2014 was simply evidence of its continuing. I don't think you have the slightest idea of what you are up against with a WW who has had a long-term affair, has fallen in love, has contemplated leaving you for this man and who still has easy access to him. The probability is that this affair hasn't ended even today, and your wife and OM are in regular contact, and are regularly having sex. Your children are nearly all off your hands, and it is likely that your wife has been staying in the marriage because she does not want to leave while her youngest is still in school. But this man is now divorced and thus free, and the likelihood is that she is waiting for that child to get a bit older, and then she can leave you for OM.

What do you really know about the ending of the 2011 affair? What made you think it had ended at the time? Apart from your wife telling you she wouldn't see OM any more, what steps were taking to make contact impossible? It sounds as if you did not move then, and you maintained your membership of this organisation - so all you had to go on was her word.

How were you "controlling and demanding" after you discovered that affair, and how do you see that as a mistake? It seems to me as if you were not controlling or demanding enough, since you were unable to bring about any changes that meant your wife ending contact with OM. Please describe what you mean about being "controlling and demanding".

And now today, you are still making mistakes about ending the affair, despite having found this site. It seems that you refuse to follow Dr Harley's advice for ending an affair, and you are choosing to take your own path, which means allowing your wife to work in close proximity to OM's home, and remaining in the organisation that you "cannot leave" (which is nonsense, in a free country).

You are prioritising other things over saving your marriage, such as keeping your child in the local school, not suffering a financial loss on the house price, and fulfilling your obligation to some organisation. What about your obligation to protect your children from divorce?

You are not facing up to the fact that this affair never ended in 2011, your wife is in love with OM and she is waiting for your youngest child to get a bit older so that she can leave you. If you don't move away, leave the organisation and ensure NC right now, it will be too late by the time you do decide you can move. By then, your wife will have decided that she has been a good wife and mother for long enough, and now it is her time to find happiness - and she will leave you for OM.

What in the world?

You were already TOLD that the conditions that allowed this affair to carry on all this time MUST BE changed. You were called out on your lack of seriousness in responding to posters on this topic (resumption/continuation of affair from 2011) and that a move would be necessary. You acknowledged it here.



What is going on here?

You leave out the fact that you changed your mind on STEP 1 (NC and removal of conditions that allowed affair to happen/LTA to continue) and then SPIN us a new version of your non-MB recovery plan, pretending this hasn't already been addressed?

I don't appreciate this. If you don't want to follow MB, you should be fair to posters and not bury this type of vital information and basically pull a bait and switch on us.

Not cool.

We hammered you about this but you said this to get us off your back...

Back in January:

So this is what you mean by EPs being in place:

So, the EPs that you've agreed upon to protect the marriage amount to:

He has no need to go near her job;

She has promised not to go near that section of town (where he lives);

Your friends are pressuring him to leave the organisation;

You won't go to social events where you know he'll be.

Good grief - I don't remember reading any of those in the Surviving an Affair, or anything that suggested that they are in any way adequate.

I thought something was odd when this poster was writing exclusively about UA time when people in recovery are facing challenges like changes jobs, moving, etc while having UA time.

I don't believe I will be different, I know you feel I am cutting corners and doing half measures and since I respect your opinion I am not going argue the point with you. I am doing my best to follow the steps here and will continue to work hard.

For me its been a few days in passing, no conversation or anything like that we just happened to be occupying the same space at the same time.


Back in Feb. while we were out at some place having dinner him and his girlfriend walked into the place we were at, they turned around and left.

That's just empty double-speak - are you a politician? You haven't address the points at all.

How do you know that was her last time?

The "same space" being a meeting of your organisation?

You are correct, this was the resumption of a previous affair. No she doesn't post here. Yes he was exposed at the organization and it didn't go well for save for a few of his drinking buddies.

My friend, I don't "feel" any such thing. I KNOW you are cutting corners. You have skipped right over STEP ONE, so that is not doing your best to follow the steps.

Unless that step is followed, there is no hope here. You already know it doesn't work because you have been at this for YEARS. Your marriage has been hit by a car playing chicken and you are still running out in the road. The solution is to get out of the road, not to pretend like you have become a better chicken player.

Nonsense. I am willing to post further on this thread when you get serious about following Dr. Harleys methods.
Until that time, good luck with your own plan. Hopefully you'll have better success than last time.

This is only what you know about. Every time your wife sees him, his car, his home, her feelings for him are triggered. Every time her feelings are triggered the risk of the affair resuming skyrockets. It is only a matter of time before this happens, if it even ended at all. This is the reason why her affair continued on from 2011.

You have a gun to your head and are playing Russian roulette with your marriage and your life. You just keep pulling the trigger.

When your wife resumes her affair - if it ever ended - you will be the LAST PERSON who is informed. This is like sending the "recovering" alcoholic into the bar every day, pretending she is sober while taking her "word" that she doesn't take a drink. It is only a matter of time before she takes the drink.

ThePhoenix, it is frustrating when we are more serious about your marriage than you are. I guarantee that you will never recover this way. Your wife will stay in a state of perpetual withdrawal and you are facing an on again, off again affair. If not with this dirtbag, another one. The REASON? As long as her boyfriend is hanging around the fringes, she will remain in the fog.

I also don't believe you are being completely forthright with us about your relationship with your wife. Since she is FOGGED OUT, I seriously doubt she is engaging in recovery.

There are lot of posts here, trying to keep up and sorry if I miss answering something, but since this one seems like the most significant I�ll try to answer these.

I have been honest about it being a resumption of a previous affair, it just seems to have slipped though the volume of posts. I can have lots of confidence it ended in 2011 because shortly after after I discovered the affair I was contemplating divorce and almost went through with it, but she was hospitalized for a major illness at that time and while nursing her back to health I rediscovered I loved this woman. We moved forward very well for a period of time and there was no contact, I had no reason for suspicion although I did investigate regularly and found no evidence. My biggest failure was no exposure, followed by not moving at that time when we would have been in a position to do so.

I was controlling and demanding in regards to using the affair as an excuse to get her to do things and go places by throwing it up in her face as an "you owe me� kind of thing for allowing you to still be my wife. I turned into a very bitter and nasty person over the last 2 years, to the point where recently my daughter commented to me she thought we were going to get divorced and is very glad to see us at the place we are at now. I can pinpoint when this affair resumed last year and had been battling it for months before coming here and learning of Dr. Harley�s approach.

I am following the advice and doing many of the steps, my wife works in the town in which we live and it isn�t in close proximity to his home, he does live in the same down but on the other side and there is no need for him to come near our house or her work or her to head over there. There is no accounted for time and there has complete transparency that I have been able to validate through snooping.

I am trying not to devastate myself financially, I know many here feel that is a penalty that must be paid for such an affair.

This past Dec/Jan when everything was exposed she was ready to leave me and almost did, but she stayed because of me following plan A. So I know you will say that I choose to hold there because I got what I wanted and I am cherry picking the advice. Trust me we are working through the steps, just not at the preferred speed.

Your last paragraph indicates that in your opinion based on dealing with others who do what I am doing that it will leave me devastated as she leaves me in the future. I can tell you this she has come out of the fog and sees him a very different person, a very unlikeable one than the one she was having the affair with. I am sure you will tell me she is telling me what I want to hear.

True I can leave the organization right now, but that doesn�t change the fact of us all living in the same town, however there is no need for her to be there and she isn't. The move would only get us out of town she will also need to change jobs and that is in progress. However, since our daughter will be working with her over the summer no change will happen until Sept. which is the right time to change jobs her her line of work, because that is when companies are hiring.

I need to head off and will try to catch up on the rest of the posts later.

We most certainly do not believe any such thing. We believe that moving will prevent you from suffering the 'penalty" of a repeat affair and a divorce. You will quickly bounce back from any financial effect from moving. You will NEVER bounce back from affair #3. No amount of money can compensate for an affair. It is not MONEY that affects quality of life in the greatest way, but the quality of your marriage.

Many, many of us have moved at great financial loss and we did not suffer a "penalty." We live in PEACE and have wonderful marriages. We live lifestyles where we don't have to endure a fogged out wayward or face constant reminders of the OP. "Penalty?" NO WAY. That is like saying that quitting smoking is a "penalty" and ignoring the enormous benefits.


This has absolutely nothing to do with a "preferred speed" and it concerns me when I see you pettifogging the issue. The issue is that you have not taken STEP ONE. Step one is to end all contact for life with the OM. You have not even started on that step.

You still see him because you place some organization above your marriage and your wife still sees him around because you live in a small town. She cant possibly end contact when she may drive past him next week. Every time she sees him her feelings will be triggered.


I am sure that your fog is very deep to have written this. It just tells us that you have no earthly idea of the threat you face. Your wife is very addicted to the OM and there is NO WAY she is out of the fog since she still sees him around.


More excuses to not take STEP ONE. Everything else comes before your marriage, which will prevent you from recovery. You can't move because your daughter all be working with her over the summer?

Are you serious?

No, you are not serious. This post just demonstrates what I posted above: we are more serious about this than you are.

Please do not claim to have extraordinary precautions in place when the very basic ones are left undone.

Consider this:

All of your compromises that you are making believing that they are in the best global interest of your marriage - preserving finances or whatever, will someday all count against you. This is because any concern, no matter how valid you think it is, reflects lack of care when placed before the marriage. So, you had better steel yourself for the future revelation that your WW believes it is all your fault, because you never really cared about her. You are proving your lack of care by continuing the enabling of her affair, and by failing to take decisive and bold steps that prove she really matters to you.

You will never recover when you are constantly looking over your shoulder and focusing on ways to avoid spotting the OM.


It only serves to keep the affair and the OM in BOTH of your minds.

That is not how a marriage recovers.

Wrong!!

This is an issue I spoke to Dr Harley about personally and he told me SPECIFICALLY that the "conditions" have more to do cheater having an affair vs lack of needs being met or BS commiting lovebusters etc.

Do NOT twist Dr Harley's "approach" to tailor your OWN recovery plan.

I have heard him suggest a move for FAR LESS problems in a recovery than you have in yours.

Regardless of what your WW may tell you she IS in love with the OM and she IS addicted to him. That is why she has not been able to stay away from him in the past and you have been dealing with an on again/off again affair since 2011. Not because you were being "demanding".

Phoenix,

"True I can leave the organization right now, but that doesn�t change the fact of us all living in the same town, however there is no need for her to be there and she isn't"

Then, why don't you resign. Is this membership more important your marriage because of your self-aggrandizement from being a member?

Based on your comments, you seem to prefer to attempt to maintain an idyllic middle-class life rather than address the serious threat to your marriage and family. The price to you is that you've lost your W to her OM for the last 4 years. Your way has worked find so far, Right? Why not subscribe to MB advice and see what a difference it may make. I don't believe your W has recommitted to your marriage at all - I think she's simply skilled at snowing you to keep you out of her affair.

Tom

Anytime I asked a question the reply was always inquiring about the UA time, so that is why the discussion was going in that direction until this last question I asked which has taken it in this direction.

Listen, you aren't unique.
Ive been around long enough to see the signs of when posters aren't serious.
The reason why you aren't posting about the MOST IMPORTANT parts of recovery is because you aren't following them!

So when I go back over the Checklist for How Affairs Should End:
- Full Exposure occurred and she has admitted to the pain she caused to me and family and had been remorseful
- She has totally revealed all the information about the affair I have asked for and then some. No I didn't do a poly with her, I feel she was fully honest her because I know the when, where and how�s and have been able to verify a number of things I was told and many confirmed evidence I already had that I didn�t reveal to her.
- She made the commitment to never talk to or see the OM again and the best I have been able to verify she has stuck to that
- She wrote the letter of no contact and I delivered it to the OM and for what it's worth got his word it is ending on his end also. But.... there is room for doubt
- I have full access to all her social media, emails, cell phone and so on. Blocks have been placed on him being able to contact her. There is nothing that she hasn't given me access to.
- There is never any unaccounted for time and I am fully aware of where she is at all times. She doesn't take her phone into other rooms or away from me to have private conversions or texting sessions.
- All the money is fully accounted for and there is no unusual spending
- We spend all our leisure time together, haven't done any separate leisure activities since we agreed to try and fix the marriage. We have lots of UA time, more than the minimum 16 hours and approach closer to 20 almost every week. She suggests about as many date ideas as I do
- There has been no overnight separations.
- technical accountability, I have searched and not sure I found a clear definition, but we hold each other accountable to make sure we talk throughout the day, never leave or come into the house without acknowledging each other with a hug/kiss. Never go bed without a good night kiss and every morning there is a good morning ritual I will call it that we have. None of this previously existed and it has all come with us working on the marriage

The only thing that hasn�t occurred is the change jobs and relocate if necessary. While we have plans to move in the future I am not sure in this day and age with all te available communication methods that far enough exists, considering the number of long distance threads I have seen posted here.

I'll be honest she has done everything I could have asked for and more, been very loving and attentive, it hasn�t been perfect there were days where one or both of us had break downs early on. But the more time we spent focused on each other the less and less we had bad days and the more and more we have good days.

I was literally the happiest I had been ever in this marriage, and she appeared to be also, but then all these current response have brought me back to the early stages of this, I have gotten paranoid and I find myself checking and double checking everything and even trying to read between the lines. I have gotten physically sick and feel like these responses have brought me back to day 1 of this.

Well, I spent the past few days snooping and digging deeper and have found no evidence of any wrong doing, if anything I am getting confirmation of everything she has said and is making a real effort at recovery.

Whenever we point out to you that you have not taken step one, which is to secure NC, you repeat what you have said from your earliest posts; that you are not prepared to move house now, and you are not prepared to leave that organisation.

You say this over and over, with more elaborate explanations, but essentially saying that you will not change those crucial factors in your life. Well, it is your life.

No regular poster on this site will support your decision to maintain either of those positions - I can guarantee that.

We are only reiterating our advice because we have seen (many of us at first hand, in our own marriages) that it is impossible to end an affair and recover a marriage while either or both spouses is in contact with OP, or while OP lives close enough for accidental sightings to take place. More importantly, Dr Harley has seen the resumption of affairs (or their continuance, hidden) so many times over his 40 year career that he is "adamant" that, regardless of the sacrifices necessary to careers and children's schooling, a move away from the area where OP lives is essential.

But, as I said, it is your life to live as you wish.

Sorry but this is all MEANINGLESS.

Experiencing a "honeymoon" after a d-day and decision to stay together is COMMON and says ZERO towards your ability to recover your marriage for the LONG HAUL.

Every couple goes thru this here. The ones who SKIP steps and cherry pick come back here with problems. It might take a few weeks or months, but they come back.

Have you seen where Dr Harley says you can skip extraordinary precautions (live in proximity to OP, BS can stay in contact with OP) if your WW is remorseful and willing to meet your needs and is acting very happy??

No! It doesn't matter!

No NC....no EPs = no recovery.
It's really that simple.

You can't SPIN a different recovery plan. It WILL NOT work.

We won't pat you on the back when you are making mistakes that are going to BACKFIRE. Sorry!

I am so sorry, but this is all meaningless until you have taken steps to end contact with the OM for life. That has not been done. So many people make the mistake of going through the checklist, thinking they can pencil whip it while completely skipping step one: NO CONTACT FOR LIFE.

I don't think Dr Harley predicted people would misuse his checklist in that way when he made it up. I should tell him that people are misusing it to justify glossing over STEP ONE.

An exercise in pencil whipping, I am afraid.

here

ThePhoenix,

Have you taken all the steps you can to drive OM off ***EDIT*** exposure to his children, parents, grandparents, girlfriends, exes etc. Does OM at least fear you?

Will your WW take a polygraph ***EDIT***

Gamma

Sir,
The posters aren't making you physically sick.
You are making yourself physically sick through psychological and physiological responses to what you are viewing, similar to someone that may vomit after being in a morgue.
The posters are explaining Dr. Harleys program for Surviving an Affair to you.

The fact is the No Contact letter is meaningless becAuse she will continue to see him and you are unwilling to quit a membership and move in order to prevent that from happening. Just call him up and tell him to disregard the letter and that you will enable it the best you can. I imagine if you want to be discreet and maintain your image in the community the best way would be to hire him as your gardener while you are at work.

If you decide to get serious then you will need to establish no contact and move.

It is an addiction. Do not underestimate its power. That is a rookie mistake.


You have discovered twice that your WW cannot resist OM.


Take control of your life. You will never get the affair or the OM out of your minds and your lives until you take action to get out of OM's sphere... and that does not mean trying to avoid OM because you live in his area.

Phoenix --

Sadly, you are vastly underestimating the POWER of her addiction.
And you are leaving in place the opportunity for the affair to rekindle....so easily.

I was a WW. 15 years ago. And even now....10+ years after my last contact with OM, it still CROSSES MY MIND that I could contact him to "see how he's doing". My OM lives across the country.

Imagine if I had to drive by his neighborhood... Or drive by a place where we had lunch... Or by somewhere special to "us".... How much more frequently I would be reminded of him.
And how much easier it would be for me to find him in a moment of weakness.

That is how easy it would be for her affair to start up all over again.

She might be behaving now. But what about 3 months from now?
What about a year from now, when you have both slipped back into old habits? Why won't you take her away from those triggers?

Why aren't you willing to take the extraordinary steps?
It seems like a lack of care on your part. Aren't you "all in"?

I wasn�t saying the posters who are trying to help me have made me physically sick, what they have done is forced me to reexamine everything that has occurred and all my decisions to this point. The result of that is they have knocked me out of my comfort zone and now I am worried that contact could have resumed. I have no clear or hard evidence and none of the affair behaviors have returned, but all that could mean is it has gone deeper underground if they are in contact.

So I am not sure how to play this out, the only red flag I have is increased Facebook usage over the past 2, 3 days mostly during the workday. Even though they are not FB friends they were using messenger to communicate previously. No other red flags exist, so it could be coincidence or it could mean something. I guess I need to gain a comfort there.

So do I ask her point blank if she is back to messaging with OM, approach him or handle it some other way? While she has no problem handing me the phone and letting me go through it while she is there, getting a hold of it without her knowing to install a monitoring program could raise suspicions and I would most likely get caught. Obviously I know things could be deleted or a stealth program I cannot locate could be running on the phone. I can�t find a way to track phone location without installing an app on her phone or sending her a notification text that its being tracked.

Then if there is no contact how do I approach the subject of selling the house and moving and having her switch jobs on an accelerated time table over what we have already agreed to.

I guess the power and risk of the addicition is hitting home and I need a status check as to where we are in regards to that before pushing to get out of the area

1. How do you know about the increased FB usage? What are you using to monitor this? What device is she using to go on FB during the working day?

2. How do you know they are not FB friends? It takes only a second to friend, and unfriend again.

You said earlier, she gave you full access to all devices and social media. Therefore, she should have no objections installing a Keylogger on all devices, a GPS app on her phone, a tracking app for all messages on her phone, etc.
If she balks the slightest, then RED FLAG!

This is what is meant by technical accountability, you put warning measures in place to ensure she does not break NO CONTACT.

She only uses her phone for FB. I can say that with confidence because her job doesn�t have internet access and she doesn�t have or need a computer at the job. At home she doesn�t use the kids laptop or my pc unless she needs to for very specific purposes.

I am manually monitoring it, when I open FB I can see which people in my friends list are currently active and for some of them it indicates when they were last active. Best I can tell from research, FB shows last active if you go on via a mobile device and just close it but don�t log off, i.e. its running in background. That�s always been normal for her and even myself, so thats not a red flag.

..and yes this method of monitoring is impacting my job performance severely as I am not fully focused on my tasks

What is bothering me is very often today they have both been on at around the same time fairly frequently (as well as about 30 to 50 other people at any given time from my friends list) and they both have the similar last active times, give or take a few minutes. But this has only been today, for the past few weeks and months it was very rare for them to be on around the same time. His wall posting shows him winning big at xxx game fairly frequently and getting tagged in a picture and posting a status, so for all I know it�s a slow day at work for him and he is playing the game and checking when he gets alerts about being tagged and not messaging her, but�the strength of addiction talk now has me filled with doubts.

Also, I can check data usage via our cell phone provider, that however has remained fairly consistent. No spikes like when the affair was active, which was probably due to file/picture sharing.


Because I can see both his and her FB profiles and in their activity logs it shows recent friends, neither one of them show up for the other and it�s rare for her to accept a friend request knowing I am looking at this without telling me about it first ever since she agreed to work on the marriage. I do look at the friends profiles to make sure they are legitimate people and not ghosts.

Beside I am not friends with OM�s girlfriend but during exposure I was easily able to message her. I don�t think you need to be friends to �chat/message� it just sends it to a different mail folder if you don�t have messenger installed and if you do have messenger installed it comes up like any other message from a friend.

OK that explains technical accountability, thanks. Considering we are 5 months into this process how do I approach her to say I now what to do this, when it probably should have been done much earlier on. I think even if I wasn't doing anything wrong and this request suddenly came up I would perceive as an accusation of doing something wrong.

Do I take out the surviving an affair list and say we should review this and then point to this as an uncompleted item. Or is there a better way to approach the topic.

After my DDAy, I wanted to believe my WW when she said she would never speak with POSOM again. I really did.

Unfortunately, it simply went further underground and it took me 9 months to find it. We ended up in a False Recovery which in the end was much worse than the original A itself.

Go into this with your eyes wide open friend...

Fully embracing and incorporating 100% of the MB program gives us the best chance at R.

If you can get her to fall back in love with you, her motivation will be much higher to join you in this.

R is a marathon not a race. Many highs and lows. Steps forward and steps back. It takes years to R your M....

I simply dont understand why a WS who had a Facebook/social media affair still HAS any social media?

Eliminate the conditions which led to the A. The site itself is a trigger for her!

I think it is very likely contact has resumed. You need to get a keylogger on there. As to getting caught - that is a very minor consideration given that she is the one who is hiding something not you. She can count on you to snoop in any way you can think to. Promise her.

I don't think you need her permission to snoop.

There was a zero chance that I would even have considered thinking about R while still having ANY type of social media. We both dropped all social media. I don't miss it a bit.

I thought I was all in, but I finding out there is more work to be done.

As a former WW were you able to be very loving and caring to your BS while involved in the affair?

FB? What?!

More cherry picking apparently. Sigh. You were told that needed to go:

Yes, waywards can act very devoted and involved in recovery process in order to get the BS to back down and not implement ironclad EPs. We see that all the time.

Even if the affair is over and her attitude is sincere, that is NO EXCUSE to not get away from the OM and implement serious EPs - not your own washed down version of them.

You still have FB?

This post is attempting to deflect attention from the issue of EPs - the way you have successfully steered this thread away from EPs a few times in the past.

You're looking for a way out, with that question to Lexxy. You're hoping to find evidence that a WW cannot be loving and caring to two men at the same time, so that you may conclude that, since yours if being loving and caring to you, she can't still be in the affair.

That is not the way to find out the truth, and it's not the way to make the affair impossible. The way to end the affair and remove any chance of its continuing is to take EPs, including moving far away from where you live now, and giving up membership of that organisation.

Stop trying to deflect from STEP ONE. You are not doing yourself or your marriage any good by pretending that the affair is not continuing.

Ok. Obviously, your wife should NEVER KNOW abotu your snooping devices. If you tell her you have a keylogger on her computer what will a WS do? WORK AROUND IT! Your resource will be rendered useless.

Do not tell her or ask her about snoopng devices.

But do ask her to eliminate all social media and follow the checklist. ALSO, ask her if she will move to another town/state with you.

She should never be given the chance to balk because she should NEVER know about it. A snooping device is rendered useless if a spouse knows about it. To snoop means to spy in ways they cannot detect. No reason to use a GPS or a keylogger if the spouse knows about it.

Dr. Harley says ALL avenues that the WS used to facilitate the affair must be changed and/or stopped. And Facebook was on of these avenues that she used, correct? Hence EPs.

So why is she still using Facebook?

Just a brief update

Snooping has comfirmed no contact with POSOM

FB has been shut down

We have started looking at new houses in next county. Meeting with an agent tomorrow to look at a property we like

Found out during our date on Sunday she has already contacted 2 places about getting a new job, one is very close to the area we are looking at moving to and they are very interested in hiring her

Phoenix,

Can you please summarize what exposure has been done.

Where OM is now. Do you still see OM?

Your WW has a history of placating you to get what she wants are you going to get a polygraph?

Gamma

Exposure can simply be summed up as, everyone in our lives is aware of what happened. Thats all friends and family including all the people we had in common with OM. On his side I exposed to all his family and the friends that I knew to be in his social circle.

OM still lives in same town which is why we are now house hunting to get out of the area. Its been awhile since my path has crossed with OM, when we go out we head to the area we are looking to move to.

I can't say I agree with your assement of her having a history of placating me to get what she wants, she used to fight me pretty hard about moving and changing jobs and other things.