BACK STORY--
As mentioned in my first thread, fWH and I were good friends of his emotional affair partner and her husband.

DH called OW's H and explained what was going on. He confessed and apologized. As mentioned in my thread, OW's H didn't seem particularly upset.
Two days later DH found an email that was supposedly to the both of us in his mail box (and only his. I wasn't even copied). It was basically an apology that she'd gotten DH "in trouble" with me and a thank-you to me for not telling her H about all of this, that she appreciated DH's male POV, that she thinks I'm lucky we have such an "open and honest relationship" (!!) and finally a little guilt-trip about not skipping their daughter's grad. party because we were mad at her.
She had mailed it Saturday AM (he didn't find it 'til Tues), and DH called her H Sunday PM.

I wrote a reply with DH's agreement, that reminded her, curtly, that she was to have no contact with DH and he none with her.
(He had written a NC letter two weeks prior (and 12 days before I found this site, btw) that basically said that he wasn't sure how this spun so far out of control, but that he was breaching trust with me and that simply was not OK. And then said there would be no further contact.)

I also pointed out that that open and honest relationship DH and I have always had was built on the fact that we WERE open and honest. But keeping secrets, and being ASKED to keep secrets does not figure in to that very well!

I then BCCed it to her husband to make sure he was kept in the loop.

TODAY--

Her husband called mine this morning. Their daughter's grad. party was Saturday PM and he had missed us.

He basically expressed that he was feeling rejected and really didn't understand what the big deal is.

DH told him that for us it was basically a breach-of-trust issue. Between email and phoning, he and the OW were talking two or three times a day. He didn't actively HIDE that fact from me, but he sure didn't volunteer it, either. Ie, a lie-of-omission. (He didn't say anything about loving the OW because he's afraid that would be too easy to write him off as carrying some kind of unreciprocated torch.)

He also pointed out that the subject of the conversations is part of what was wrong; complaining about spouses, things that were discussed that supposedly couldn't be discussed with spouses, special secrets just between the two of them and so on.

OW's H said sometimes people just need to vent. He vents to a (male) buddy of his sometimes. DH pointed out that that's part of it; his buddy is male. He also told OW's H to do some research on emotional affairs, and then to call me to get my take on what was going on.

But he genuinely doesn't get it!

DH is coming out of the Wayward Fog (he doesn't even remember being absolutely convinced (a mere week ago) that OW was a battered wife and terrified of her husband. "No, I just thought that he might get angry sometimes..." Sorry, Love. That is NOT what you told me). So he is gaining some good, honest perspective. But at the same time, he's having a hard time trying to explain to OW's H what was truly going on, when OW is still lying to herself and everyone else around her.

Apparently he told DH he'd call me in a day or two.



So my question:
What on earth do I do with this??

He "is" having a hard time explaining to OW's H? "Is" as in, present tense?

Who made it your H's job to explain this?

All your H needed to do was call the guy & apologize. Then: Done, end of contact. If OW's H doesn't get why you're upset, or why your H is apologizing to him, that's not you & your H's problem to solve.

After what has gone on, you simply need to disengage from this other family. (As has been advised already.) Unless getting a drama fix is a higher priority than shoring up your marriage.

BTW, I'm not trying to fix their marriage or anything.
It's just that they both (OW and her H) seem to think we're all supposed to go back to "the way things used to be."

She's still delusional, and he just genuinely doesn't get it...

If this man doesn't care that his wife is ignoring him for another man - maybe he doesn't care all that much for her anyway, or maybe he's got the same kind of thing going on somewhere himself.

Ask him if he thinks there is no difference between males and females.

Ask him if he thinks it was okay that your husband was ignoring you for HIS wife.

Ask him if he knows what "dating" is.

Or maybe he's just a doormat who is afraid of his wife. Really need more info here.

"Is" as in he called DH three hours ago, asking.

So far as "drama fix" I think you're completely missing my question...

It's best to stick to one thread. I think this was already addressed in the first thread. You guys are way too enmeshed with this couple.

You need to forget these people exist and focus on your own R. Unfortunately by allowing her to "expose" herself, she twisted everything up so that her H thinks you are making a big deal out of nothing. There is not too much more you can do above what you have already done.

Repeat ~ you guys need to:
Change your phone numbers, emails, block FB accounts etc.

If you don't, they are just going to keep contacting you.

Yes. I should have said what SusieQ said - just get these people out of your lives. Apparently neither one of them understands or respects anyone else's marriage. They've done you enough damage and you don't need any more. It's not your job to explain things to them that they don't want to understand anyway.

Of course we are.
We've been good friends for six years!

And I can't help but feel badly for OW's H because he's truly floundering, trying to figure things out.
He feels abandoned and someone needs to explain to him why.

IMO, you are to continue being thankful that the EA ended as cleanly as it did, didn't progress further, and wish OW & her H good luck. Ask them to respect your decision to end your relationship with them. Then cut them off and have NOTHING further to do with them. Do not respond to emails. Do not return phone calls. Block their number.

PieceMakers, some BS's have a weird attraction for this type of situation. OWH sounds like one of them. Or he's totally clueless and has no clear sense of protection for his own M. Either way, you are better off shed of both of them.

Sorry, PM... yes, I guess I am missing it.

What I didn't miss was that your hubs suggested that OW's H call you; and I'm concerned for you that all of this back-&-forth increases the chances that H & OW will be in contact again, even if by accident. For your H to speak with OW's H once was a decent, honorable thing to do. But it is done. Thanks to your H's shoddy boundaries, your friendship with this couple has turned out to have been a toxic one for your marriage, and it is time to end it. That's a sad prospect, but not as sad as the prospect of reigniting the EA.

Change your phone numbers. Change your e-mails. (These things are examples of what Dr. Harley calls extraordinary precautions." And they may be in fact extraordinary. Not ordinary, not necessarily convenient. But perhaps crucial for your marriage.) Ask your H to do these things ... in this way, you give him an opportunity to show his sincerity about wanting to ensure that this never happens again. If he's smart, he'll jump at the chance.

email has been blocked for a week. If she sends anything, it just disappears into oblivion. No signal to her that it's not being received (or anything to let DH know something was sent).
Just disappears. Her cell number has already been blocked. We'll take care of his after a few days, in case he tries to call. (Afterall, it was DH's suggestion that he should do so. )

I think he's plain, old clueless. The same thing I said after DH called him and he wasn't particularly upset.

No sex = no affair

But that doesn't mean I can't feel compassion for him. He didn't create this mess. She and my husband did. He was, and is, being played for a fool. How sad that my spouse is being honest with him before his own...
And not only is his wife still playing him for a fool, but he has to lose some of his dearest friends in the collateral damage.
Eventually, I'm sure, he'll come to realize too that this is really the only outcome, but that doesn't mean I don't (or shouldn't! ) feel great sorrow now.

Okay, that's good of you. But you can't control their outcome, only your own. So wish them well, and close that chapter of your life.

The problem is right here. The OWH has been lied to. You need to call him up and tell him your H is IN LOVE with his wife and this is an emotional affair. He is not getting it becuase the AFFAIREES are lying to him. REAL EASY to resolve with a quick phone call.

No, I'm afraid I have to agree with DH on this one.

Much better just to tell the facts and let OW's H draw his own conclusions. (Or lack of... )
Otherwise, it's too easy for OW to say that "he might love ME, but I sure didn't reciprocate. He misread me. He's made a mess of his marriage and is now trying to say that ours should be also..."
Etc, etc.
Facts can't be argued. Mulitple phone calls a day are on the bill. Lies within emails can be forwarded, etc. Unspoken feelings, on the other hand, are entirely too hazy. Especially in an affair that never went physical.

DH did tell him it went much farther than it ever should've and to research emotional affairs, because that's what it was.

And so much for following MB advice...

ML wrote

He is not getting it

Speaking of which ask him if he saw an abrupt change in his wifes sexual habits, no kissing, seemed disconnected that sort of thing.

Gamma

The way that was most effective for me to explain my wife's emotional affair to people who don't "get it" is to say:

"My spouse is having an affair with OM/OW. It has not yet become sexual."

That goes a long way to explaining it in terms that the "no sex == no affair" crowd can understand.

Um, we ARE following MB advice.

We just disagree with ML's advice.
The affair has already been exposed. My husband has already confessed and apologized to hers. He called it an "emotional affair." (which is what it was)
Love was never spoken of between the two of them (weird boundaries that were actually still in place) so it doesn't make any sense to bring it up now. It's too easy to discount because they'd never discussed it.

Thanks Gamma.
If and when he calls, that will be on my checklist of questions. And to point out that there are text-book signs of affairs, these were some I noted:___.
And this is how it needs to be handled:_____, so it's what DH and I going to have to do.

DNM,
I'm going to point out that there is a pretty clear path that they were on. And that I have no doubt if I hadn't shoved DH off the path that it would have ended up as a sexual affair. It was just a matter of time...

All I wanted to add is that ML KNOWS HER STUFF. She is EXTREMELY knowledgable in this area...you should heed her advice, but of course the final decision is up to you, Piecemakers.

It is great that your H is involved in reading posting here with you, but just remember he is still foggy and there are certain things with respect to R that you need to be driving the bus on (not him!) ~ such as EPs and exposure.

It sounds like you have made up your mind ~ but I want to go on record for saying I think you are making a critical error in not changing your email and phone. Also you haven't responded to the FB question as to blocking OW and her H so that their stuff ends up on your newsfeed so that leads me to believe you aren't doing that either.

I really hope you don't end up like others who didn't adopt proper EPs and end up with the A reigniting or with a WS who just can't seem to fall back in love with the BS...OR just can't seem to get over their love for OP....

Read this by tst (an exemplary FWS in a successfully recovered marriage): Extraordinary Precautions

Good luck.

Actually, I said (right after your original question nearly two weeks ago) that DH had taken her off his FB. He did that the same day he sent the NC letter.
I, too, took her off last week and her husband, while ON FB, has never actually used it. If he should suddenly start to do so, we'll probably have to remove him, too.

Nor have I said we won't be changing our phone.
I didn't actually say anything one way or the other, just that thus far we've already blocked her number and will probably be blocking his.
So far as email, there's no reason she'll ever know that her emails (if she sends any) disappear into nothingness. I simply don't see the point in changing it if blocking is already serving the purpose...

I give up. Good luck to you in your R.

Pardon me? You (re)asked a question that I answered nearly two weeks ago (the first time you asked) and then followed it up with an erroneous assumption.

And we ARE adopting EPs. Starting with blocking numbers and emails.
So far, that seems to be working quite well. I genuinely do not see why we should do something else when this is already working...

Further I read your link and pulled this out from the OP:
I would fully agree.



I really do not understand what heinous thing I did to deserve your rudeness...

But you are not giving him the full facts. The biggest factor - the one factor that defines this relationship as an affair [that your H is "in love" with the OW] is being WITHHELD from the OWH, giving him a FALSE IMPRESSION about the relationship. You are purposely leaving him with a FALSE impression.

If you withhold the fact that your H "loves" the OW, then he doesn't have the proper understanding of the affair. Heck, he doesn't even believe it is an affair!

You can't expect him to have the correct perspective when you WITHHOLD key facts. And I find it more than a little disturbing that are allowing your husband - the WAYWARD - to make the determination to withhold this vital information from his VICTIM. That is a little too convenient in that it leaves the back door open for your WAYWARD husband to resume contact with the OWH's blessing in the future.

You are making a strategic mistake, PM, and don't seem to understand the wayward mindset of your husband. He doesn't want the OWH to know so he doesn't burn that bridge back to his OW.

It is easy for even a halfwit WS to explain away multiple phone calls and emails. Easy, easy, easy. We were "just friends" blah, blah, blah.... That is pretty much the rule rather than the exception.

So leaving out the KEY FACTOR that defines this as an emotional affair and demonstrates the gravity of the DANGER your husband presents to this man's marriage is irresponsble and MEAN. Why would you toy with someone like that?

To protect your WH? The only rational reason I can fathom is that your wayward husband is protecting the path back. If the OWH KNEW your husband is in love with his wife, he might recognize the danger your H presents and take appropriate steps to protect himself and his children.

You were told numerous times in the first thread that you needed to CHANGE the numbers and emails. Since that time, OW emailed your H again. OWH is still contacting you two. You are still getting hassled to attend a party at OW's house. All of this is counterproductive and hurts your R.

Blocking specific email addresses or phone numbers is putting a bandaid on the problem...easily circumvented. Also (again mentioned in the first thread) just knowing that at any second he can receive another email from OW at any time WILL probably keep your WH triggered.

"Removing" a friend from FB is not the same as "blocking". "Removing" doesn't prevent OW and OWH's news, pictures, etc from showing up in your and your H's newsfeed. Again, this will all trigger your H (and you) and cause you two setbacks in R. BTW, FB email/chat is another way your H and OW(using her H's acct) could end up talking to each other again. Another reason FB is regarded here as a terrible idea for waywards.

BTW, you were told by ML in the first thread to tell OWH yourself about the A which you ignored. Can you see now how that might have been a mistake? I would take her advice this time, I agree OWH needs to be told that your H loved his W. I didn't realize he hadn't been told that. Can't think of one good reason NOT to tell him...except for that your still-foggy WH wouldn't want you to.

No Contact. For Life. That includes the BH. That's MB. Are you following it?

I don't think you're following the time-line, here.
Friday evening we were "told" to change numbers and emails. As stated, we weren't even home until Monday evening. There's a reason an email sent Sat. AM wasn't found until Tuesday AM.
Email was immediately blocked (a week ago).

Nothing since.

Not unless the blocked party is aware of it.

Fortunately, that is NOT the case.

And yet, that is exactly what happened.
She was removed from both our lists. She no longer shows up.

Legitimate point.

No, instead I asked DH to tell him.
Which he did. I guess I had this idea that that would carry far more weight than anything I might say.






Ya know, I think I'm going to have to quit posting here.

It seems we haven't done ANYTHING right, and frankly, I'm getting tired of being in a stressful situation and told what a moron I am.

This board claims to provide "support, answers and encouragement." I gotta say, I've seen very little in the way of support or encouragement. To the couple of people who've managed to be both kind AND shove me in (what I foolishly thought was) the right direction, thank-you, I appreciate it.

I think we'll just go back to reading articles until our book shows up.

I'm mostly a lurker here, but what I see, over and over, are new BS's posting here every day. They are always happy to take the initial advice, then when they calm down a little bit, they go off and do their own modified MB plan, while calling it Marriage Builders.

Doing things your own way doesn't work. Read some of the longer threads here, and you will see again and again the sentence 'I should have listened'. These posters know what they are talking about, and have been there and done that. No one here is calling you a moron, they just know what will come next for you, and they're trying to help you avoid more pain.

Leave if you must, but it's your loss.

The title of your thread indicates that the problem is that the OWH doesn't understand the concept of EA. MelodyLane gave you a MarriageBuilders solution to that.

I guess you're pretty sure you know better.

my husband supposedly ended an emotional affair with a dear friend of mine, 5 years ago. (The time I created my signature here) It was very painful, but I thought it was a valuable experience that was good in a weird sort of way.

Well, apparently not only did it not end, it went physical and he's cheated with other women too.

I am so numb. Our kids are 13 and 15 and are devastated. They thought they had a pretty happy home until last night when Dad walked out on us.
I told him I was done. I can't do this anymore.

But we have two kids... i dont want to give up unless there really is no hope.
Be brutal. What are odds of surviving this?

Are you willing to follow the plan in full? More than most?

There's no room for corner cutting with ny type of affair but with a serial cheat you'd need to be overseeing him and his communications 24/7. He'd have to willingly agree .

you'd have to work together or working from home.

I highly doubt he cares enough to try, quite honestly. And I dont have any idea what we could do, employment-wise to work together.

Side question: is exposure worth it if you're not trying to save the marriage?

Having just read your old thread PM, you are going to need to be a thousand pc more on your on your game this time.

- Don't dismiss advice from veterans who have seen dozens of false recovories and can't spot them a mile away.
- For heaven's sake CHANGE contact details - allowing OW to know your Hs email and number is like putting a welcome mat out for her. Of course she was going to persist and try to get through.
- Expose to OWH properly and to everyone else and ensure your H has no say re exposures.
- Delete FB entirely and all social media. Additionally your H has no access to the internet unsupervised any more.
- Get spyware all over this.
- Arrange a polygraph to uncover the scale of his secrets second life.

Keep in mind, that was 5 years ago. All of that had been done.

But the burner phone he bought in the last year or so. How do you keep track of that?

Yes it is still worth bringing him to remorse as your children's father. Unless you want a string of OW stepmothers. You also need the support and to run off these women. Not to mention your duty to tell their husbands.

You need it for your own recovery and you will probably need to protect yourself with aPlan B or no contact if he remains in this lifestyle.

I'm so very sorry for your pain.

He was clearly keeping communication possible, and keeping her husband off scent while he figured out what to do next - like buy a burner phone.

He had some way to contact her about the burner phone idea.

So he slowly changed his contact details over five years? That's a huge red flag that he was setting up new accounts.

The way it's done is to change everything before you send the NC letter.

No, it was sudden, but he kept HER contact info

This is awful, I am so sorry. But you should have changed them not him. Never let the wayward drive the recovery bus because it will be driven by their addiction.

By not changing his details he remained triggered and was waiting for her to try and contact him. It sounds like he got fed up, changed his own details and took charge by turning it into an opportunity to gaslight you and contact her.

I went NC with my WXH and right up until I changed the numbers I was waiting for him to take the initiative to get around the block. It keeps the love bank triggered.

I don't blame you one bit for being done. Having to anticipate and oversee every potential for contact is not fun and you are perfectly within your rights to divorce.

No, I mean, he knew her number. She didnt change it.
There is nothing I could have done differently

Serial cheaters are not your "typical" cheater. Recovering from any affair is difficult. Recovery with a serial cheater is even more difficult and there is more to resent. Personally, I would never try to recover with a serial cheater. The price is too high for the BS IMO.

I divorced my serial cheating husband and I am very happy I did. Everyone has to make his/her own decisions but I am very happy to no longer be married to a man who never learned anything a***EDIT*** about his marriage, his wife or his children. He knew what he stood to lose and he didn't care.

You should still expose the affairs so you can have family support and don't feel like you have to hold your tongue. Being truthful is always better. Sorry for your pain.

Welcome to MB

PM,

You wrote, Side question: is exposure worth it if you're not trying to save the marriage?

In one of Dr Harleys radio shows he mentioned how one of the benefits of exposure is that it provides support for the betrayed spouse, as opposed to keeping quiet and suffering in silence. Do you have the contact info. For these various OW your WH is in contact with?

You should not have to maintain this horrible secret for your WH, you have no obligation to lie for him.

Gamma

He doesn't and that he walked out on his family re-enforces that. You should expose and prepare for Plan B and even D. Speak to an attorney so you understand your rights. Your WS will either come at you with anger or pity parties to manipulate you.

Thanks for the quick replies guys. You know how hard it is to post and then have to wait... 😏

I've already started sending out my exposure note:
I'm dropping you a note to let you know that Travis left the kids and I last night after confessing to at least two affairs.
One seems to have been a few months long. (A LXXX from Denver, whom he apparently went to high school with), the other, lasting several years with XXX XXX
I am unsure who else he might have been dating though would not be surprised to find there are many others.

Obviously the kids and I are pretty devastated having learned that our family wasnt as happy as we'd thought. 😔
We need the support and prayers.


So far, I've sent it to his family, mine, mutual friends and church family.

And I'm calling my lawyer as soon as I finish this post.

You don't mention OWH. What happened to him?

Are you exposing both OW? It's a good idea to run them off away from your children.

If you are filing, make it a feature of visitation that he cannot bring them around members of the OS.

Could you tell us what happened last night? Did he walk out, out of the blue, telling you about his affairs on the way out, or did you discover the information by yourself? How do you know about the burner phone?

What did he say about where he was going, and why? Is he planning a life with OW? Do you know whether she's left her H? Do they have kids?

Did he tell you where he would be living?

Has he said anything about supporting you and the kids? Have you checked your bank account to see whether he has withdrawn money? Have you transferred any money to a separate account?

Your exposure letter mentions 2 women, but this first post of yours suggest that there were more than 2. What do you know about the number of women? Do you know who they are (apart form the two named in the exposure letter)?

How did you send your letter - by email, or by Facebook?

SugarCane makes a great point about checking on the money.

You should move funds straight away in any case, but if he was planning a confession and walkout (rather than getting caught) you will have to be very quick indeed.

Please don't minimize adultery by calling it dating. I know your exposure message was rushed but going forward call it cheating, affairs, etc.

You said there were other women in addition to the EA/PA with your former friend so there is at least three affairs here.

When you some time, please answer Sugar_Cane's questions.

The solution to this is that, after this happened 5 years ago, his life would have been so open and transparent, and your marriage so integrated, that he could not have conducted an affair without your knowing about it. After all, as this was a physical affair, he had to have met her sometimes, as well as calling her on that phone.

Where and when did he meet her? Does he travel in his job? Does she? Did they take the day of work and go to a hotel? Does OW live near your home?

My H's affair continued over and over, through many D Days, and what made it possible was that we never changed the conditions that made the affair possible - his travelling job, and then later when he gave up travelling, the EA part of the affair was facilitated by a desk-based job with the same organisation, after I did not expose and ask for their help. Had I done that, he might have been sacked - which would have been the best thing for me - but more likely, he would have had his calls and emails monitored, and faced a disciplinary procedure. (They didn't work together, but she was a client of his organisation, and he used his private office space, and the company landline, mobile phone and email, to keep in contact several times a day. He must have wasted hundreds of thousands in pounds of work time (when he was not doing his work), and in international phone calls, which were long, hot and steamy.)

The only cure for that was for him to give up work altogether, by accepting early retirement, and by not having a mobile phone or portable PC.

It's not easy, but extraordinary precautions are called extraordinary for a reason.

I am sorry you are back and in such a painful situation.

You can recover with a serial cheater under certain circumstances. That he is hat in hand and fully committed to a recovery plan of your choice (MB) and that you make it absolutely impossible for him to ever cheat again (through the methods already posted to you).

It does not sound like he is hat in hand or remorseful at all. There is no way for a woman to recover with a man with that attitude, even from a single affair much less years of affairs.

I wouldn't send out any more copies of that exact letter. I think it could do with rewriting. I would draft it here first, and get feedback, before sending any more copies. You should read the Exposure 101 thread pinned at the top of this forum. It shows that different letters should be sent to his and your sides, from those sent to her side, and a different one again if you need to do a workplace exposure. You can leave out the part that asks for help in supporting your marriage if you are sure you are done, but I think those 101 letters are better templates.

(I also think that you need to get the grammar correct in a written communication: "Travis left the kids and me", not "the kids and I". The skanky whore will read those messages, and you do not want to give her anything to laugh at.)

Have you spoken to his parents (as opposed to writing to them)? I think you should, and also, speak in person to OWH. Do not send messages or leave voicemail messages, unless you know his mobile number. Voicemail to a landline can be easily intercepted, and speaking as a BS, this isn't the kind of message I would want to get by FB. You can send a FB message or an email saying that you need to speak to him urgently. Try sending an email to his work email address, so that the message is not easily seen by his wife.

Have you told your children about the affair?

From my reading of your old threads in 2010 you were told to:
~ expose YOURSELF to OWH (he had been exposed to by the waywards and seemed to think the "EA" was "no big deal".

~ still had same contact info (same phone number and email) and "blocking" was being used which we told you was not adequate

~ Your WH was still on FB.

I see that I personally told you that these couple of things alone would keep your WH foggy and triggered.

As far as I can see you were in disagreement with that advice and then stopped posting on those threads.

If you were to recover with your WH, you would probably have to move away from the OW, in addition to properly exposing this time and setting up EPs so that a SSL and cheating would be IMPOSSIBLE for your WH.

One of the things you have to consider before deciding between 'personal recovery' and 'marital recovery' is how far you want to be responsible for your spouse.

I just get a very strong sense from you PM, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you want your husband to do the heavy lifting, the hard work; to protect you from a false recovery. That is totally MB and not an unreasonable expectation at all. If it's someone who has never had an affair.

However if he is going to be the main person holding himself accountable, just don't try recovery. Accept he needs a babysitter and since that's not cool with you, decide he's history and just move on.

Both this thread and your last one are peppered with references to HIS driving the recovery bus. The WS should never be the one to do exposures, or to decide what they do about Facebook or their contact details. Everything you referred to doing was 'us' and 'we' and 'I agree with DH'. Those calls were non negotiable. They were yours to make and enforce. Even now instead of insisting on what your recovery standards are going to be, you talk about how he won't do it right this minute. Who cares? Those are your standards to put forward and insist on. If you don't want to do that, you don't want to do recovery.

Its why I didn't recover myself. I don't want to watch someone's weak side either. He had you convinced that in his situation, he wasn't really addicted and could decide to stop and not contact her. He could live within reach of her/spend nights away from you (whichever one made the PA possible) and still keep himself on track. That's not how affairs work. They are lifelong addictions.


If you need your husband to take the lead, have complete self control and make you feel safe and protected, recovery is quite possibly not for you. Sure lots of WHs are hat in hand and do whatever it takes to make their BWs feel safe - but that tends to mean agreeing to her having a very tight hold on where he is and what he's doing.

PM, when you expose, be sure and include the OW's full name.

merging threads.

Really, I just wondered how likely it was that a serial cheat would ever recover.

No one has given a testimony of one that has. (Well other than early retirement, which would be hard at 40 in the States) So, I guess I call an attorney tomorrow.

Do you have any evidence that he is a serial cheat though? It sounds like there's only his confession to go on, and we shouldn't break the golden rule of never believing a word that a wayward spouse says.

Doesn't add up. A serial cheat is only interested in casual hookups and attention. He doesn't fall in love and therefore wouldn't dream of leaving his family. This guy has left after a very long running affair for love or for pressure from OW.

A serial cheats SSL remains secret. He wouldn't want even a hint of it to get out. They would never admit it.

There's a chance he views her as easier to cheat on, but he still wouldn't want her finding out about the other women - yet he's told you?

Thinking of the serial cheats ive known on these forums - they simply don't move out. Especially if they have a sweet deal where they are getting away with it and the BW is convinced they are in recovery.

No, she's told him what to say. You came close to embarrassing her last time and destroying her in the eyes of people she loves because you were fighting for your M. She only narrowly escaped exposure.

I have seen many occasions of WS admitting to many casual hook ups to protect their OP. If you don't care enough to fight, the OP is safe.

That is not always true Indie. My serial cheating ex was not like that and there have been other serial cheaters mentioned on the forum over the years that don't fit that mold either.

You should consult an attorney regardless of what you decide so you can make informed decisions. If you do end up filing for divorce (now or later), you should cite the adultery in your divorce petition or introduce it in some form should you not be able to cite it outright. It can make a difference even in no fault states or when a lawyer says otherwise. It is always better to put it in from the beginning. Your WH would also be less likely to fight you if he knows you will expose more in legal proceedings.

My serial cheater did it for the rush of the chase but after many years of a SSL, he got emotionally involved. She was 45, fat and desperate. Hey, accidents happen even to serial cheaters

But Indie may be right, worth investigating to see if this is a single long term relationship that he is hiding. Definitely easier to recover from that.

This sounds like a bad country song.

Oh she was also a felon, we need that in the song too. They deserved one another, pity he dumped her really.

"A mean, low-life felon, an overripe melon..."

Huh?

Nobody said that you can't. Besides your question was answered.

What we said is that from what we could see from your threads in 2010, proper exposure and proper EPs were not implemented.

Serial cheater or not, that will lead to more affairs. One affair already indicates a weakness in boundaries for the WS.

...nasty skanky smellin'...

What wasn't answered were the many questions I asked you. I spent some time posting to you yesterday, and you all but ignored my posts.

I read through the thread that was attached to the beginning of this thread (i.e., this whole thread, from the beginning in 2010) and I was stunned at the anger and belligerence with with you rebutted all the advice that was given to you in 2010. SusieQ tried especially hard to get you to close down this affair properly, and you called her and other posters rude, and you pretty much told them to bugger off, because you were going to do things your way.

And here you are, not quite so belligerent perhaps, but still ignoring advice and doing things your way. This affair could have been closed down in 2010, had you listened to posters then.

Agree Sugarcane, that is why I am reluctant to spend any time here. The advice we gave back in 2010 was rudely dismissed and ignored. And here we are again....

I just want to point out that my H was not a serial cheat; he had a long-term affair with the same woman.

Neither was I recommending early retirement for a serial cheat. I wasn't recommending any particular path. I was showing that when an affair has already re-started, or perhaps never died, as happened in both your case and mine, a couple needs to take extraordinary precautions that go over and above the normal EPs.

What those precautions are will depend on the nature of the affair, and the contact that the affair partners had. My husband's affair was facilitated by his working environment. OW was a client, and his email could not be accessed at home - which means that I could not log on to check it. He had a private office space from which he could make long phone calls unheard, and a mobile phone that he left at the office - so I could not monitor that, either.

OW lived in another country, so there was no need for us to take the usual steps of moving house, or changing church. My husband could have tried to find work with another company, but I was never convinced that this would stop them from communicating through the workplace. In the end, accepting the affair for the addiction it was, it was the workplace that was the issue for us, and so when the opportunity for early retirement came up, taking it was the solution - along with no mobile phone and my access to his PC history, at home.

Other people in serial cheating situations have been advised by Dr Harley to change professions, if the nature of the profession makes hook-ups inevitable. Examples include pilots and stewardesses, anyone who travels overnight for a job, and working in hospitals where the shifts and the environment enable hook-ups between doctors and nurses.

Some people have indeed been advised to give up working outside the home, but not necessarily to retire; Dr Harley suggests that couples start a business together.

The solution to serial cheating is first, for there to be a will to stop, on the part of the cheat. Your husband has walked out on you, and as far as we have heard, shows no desire to stop his affairs, so I don't think that anything else is relevant for you. Second, is drastically to change the environment, so that the unfaithful spouse cannot pick up other people in secret.

ain't no meetin' for them in heaven

And confessed to the SSL too? I don't like that it is only his word we have. I just wonder if it is to detract blame from the AP.

Protectiveness of the OW is common and this WH has tried many times to convince his wife that her exposing OW is unnecessary and pointless. First by doing it himself. Then by implying she's not the issue.

He may well be a serial cheat I just wouldn't take his word for it.

I don't know if I would say that. I would guess that LTA and serial cheating is equally more difficult to recovery from than a regular one time cheater. Or if there is a difference, it's not a huge difference. Just MHO.

It was pretty nice of you to take more time to write to this poster after having all your other posts ignored.

Just wanted to say...Great post!

It's stuff like this which worries me. The WH here is the one who exposed the affair five years ago to OWH. He did it in such a way that OWH was left with the impression that it was just a friendship - which left the gates wide open for him to call her whenever he liked, with OWH blessing. Which happened.





Why on earth would the word of the guy who's been sliming up to his wife have more weight with OWH than PMs?

You can see by PMs quote here that she genuinely believed this 'keep the gates open' ploy was her own idea. Gaslighting extraordinaire.

Now she isn't answering anyone's questions about follow-up exposure to OWH. She's only interested in the line she's been fed about serial cheats and how hopeless that all is...

But she wasn't gaslit, Indie.

We TOLD her again and again that she needed to expose and she didn't want to hear it.

She also didn't want to follow up on the EPs.

Some people for whatever reason (don't want to rock the boat with their WS, want to forget about the affair or believe it wasn't a big deal, etc) want to skim over the JC part of recovery. Sadly that is a common theme around here.

Many times we can convince them otherwise. Sometimes they don't want to hear it - I don't think you can entirely blame it on gaslighting in those cases. Personally I think it's either denial or thinking they know better or some combination of the two....

I think that's definitely true too but they aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

If you don't have that sense of wanting to believe the WS (who among us hasn't or didn't) or not wanting to rock the boat, it's not possible to be gaslit.

There is very little willingness to rock the boat here though I agree and that isn't entirely gaslighting.

I'm not sure what you mean. My ex did not confess to a SSL..he was caught. If a WS is dumb enough to add being a serial cheater to his resume and it is not true, I don't think it detracts blame from the AP since she is still an OW.



The word of any WS/OP should be taken with a grain of salt and the truth looked into further but I also wouldn't entirely dismiss it either.

Ditto and QFT

No, it doesn't.

But I think he knows what his wife will focus on.

Here we are hearing more about the serial cheater thing (which is unverified but of course shouldn't be dismissed) than about the OWH who is by far the more pressing matter.

All Qs about him being ignored.

This is something that is definitely true and something that should have been done years ago.

Independent verification of the other OW he's claimed should also be done so she can expose them...and we aren't hearing about that either.

Here are some clips of Dr. Harley talking about serial cheaters. Give them a listen.

Serial Cheaters

It would seem as if everyone else is more interested in doing things safely and effectively moreso that PM is.

Even though countless words and significant discussion has taken place, 23 posts have been made since she last responded or answered critical questions.

So, it looks very much like the scenario from 5 years ago, where she just drops off the face of the world, because being held accountable to doing things per MB guidance does not seem like she has much interest.

And, I could very much understand just giving up on a repeat cheater, whether he is a serial cheater or has kept a SSL for the original POSOW, therefore her appointment with an attorney may be the only right solution for PM.

LTL