I am absolutely willing and wanting to rebuild our marriage, but I cannot do it alone. It seems that she is still in the fog, and still unwilling to take the steps necessary to affair-proof the marriage. I am supposed to simply accept the excuses which are numerous and convenient. And if I don't then she throws a tantrum. But I've heard them all over the years. I used to be the OM. All the deceptive techniques that she used to tell me about using on her first husband, are now being used on me. But she's refined them, I must say. Very careful. Takes pride in it, you might say.

She wanted to stay married to him, too. Wanted both of us.

I honestly believe she's serious for a few days, and then I see behaviors that remind me things haven't changed. She enjoys this too much. I can see the quick flash of contempt. The sly little smile while watching whether I've digested another lie. The games. You're good babe, but not at what I need.

Most people aren't prepared for her and don't see it coming, if they ever do. I saw it from the other side, and I have to say I actually found it attractive. My first relationship. I guess I couldn't see the obvious.

I am here, waiting for you to be on my side for once. Not putting on the show, but actually living it.

Me.

Fate, I don't drop in much anymore, but your post caught my eye.

Sounds like every day that you spent with her, every day that you & she were an item, sent her the message -- not by your words, but by your actions -- that you were OK with cheating & its logical outcomes.

You can't have been blindsided that she's cheated on you now, right?

Sir, I wasn't any better than you -- that's not what I'm here to imply. (I was just luckier that I got caught before I'd burned all my bridges.) I believe in 2nd chances -- my life would be a fried mess if I hadn't been given one. But (and here's my point): Why on earth would you want to give this person a 3rd chance?

We just had another round. Can't delete Whatsapp, said she needs it to talk to her family out of country. I don't know what to do, but I think I'm being gaslit again here. She said she installed some software on her phone to track who she text messages, that should be enough. I don't know.

If I can give any advice to anyone reading this in the future, if you suspect something, be diligent. Don't tip your spouse off ahead of time and give them the chance to take it underground. Your marriage depends on it.

GloveOil,

I suppose that's right. I guess I had it coming.

I informed the husband (my best friend up till then) that I was developing feelings for his wife, that I should stay away, and he said, "No, it's just puppy love. She needs some friends, don't be that way." What did we know, we were kids.

When I later showed him a text that it was becoming mutual, his tone changed dramatically.

And then everything unraveled, and now I'm standing in his shoes. Which I had coming.

We refrained from "being" with each other until after the divorce out of respect, which I now see as twisted and sick.

But I do love my wife. She is my first and only.

And our son, a wonderful little boy.

I don't want to give up on this, but the behavior that led to it both times must stop forever. I will do my part. I'm guilty of angry outbursts and love busters. I am getting better all the time. This has really been a wake-up call for me.

If your marriage started as an affair, then there is little hope that it will recover.

If you want to save this marriage, I suggest you contact Dr. Harley himself and get his professional help. It is really your only chance.

I see. That was something we had discussed, thank you.

Email him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

What is the problem? You volunteered for this...

Yes, I suppose I did.

And believe me, I feel pretty dumb now. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I know that it's easy to rationalize things, but is the advice here that our marriage isn't worth saving?

I have found the procedures and information listed here by Dr. Harley to have the ring of truth. Something that I have found lacking elsewhere (marriage counseling, etc) and I still feel that they can be applied.

While our relationship may have started as an affair, it stopped being one the day we took our vows. I don't see that it's any less of a marriage than anyone else's. By that standard, perhaps 2nd marriages are less important. Or non-virgin marriages.

We all make mistakes, but do we not strive to improve?

If you want to save this, then you need to email Dr. Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Marriages that start out as affairs have a very poor track record of success. We do not have the expertise to handle your fragile situation. You will need the help of Dr. Harley, the best psychologist in the country.

Fate, nobody has said that to you, so it must be your own idea.

Only you can decide if your marriage is worth saving. She's had an affair, so no one will judge you if you want to walk away. You have a child together, so no one will judge you if you want to stay.

But WE CAN'T SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. Your marriage is extra fragile because of the special circumstances of its formation, which is why we referred you to Dr. Willard Harley, who is actually a professional and is the best marriage counselor in the world. If you want to save your marriage, you are not going to be able to do it without his help, which he gives out for free.


I believe that if you can follow the principles here 100% without exception your marriage can be saved. But right now both you and your wife are making exceptions to the rules. For example, now that you have the details of the affair, the Marriage Builders rule is for you to not talk about it any more, so you must not talk about it any more. If you are going to keep talking about it, then it would be easier on you to just divorce.

The rules must be followed 100% without exception in your case, regardless of the reason for the exception. If one of you wants to make an exception somewhere because they can't or won't follow it, it will be less heartache on you to just quietly divorce.

Another rule is NO FIGHTING, EVER, for any reason.

Another rule is DON'T BREAK THE RULES YOURSELF, EVEN IF SHE BREAKS THE RULES.

Another rule is NO ANGRY OUTBURSTS, EVER, no matter what, no matter why, even if they are justified.

Right now you're regularly breaking all of those rules.

If you can follow all the rules, you might be able to save your marriage, but you are going to need Dr. Harley's help because we cannot help you do it. We would love to give you help but we have a ZERO PERCENT SUCCESS RATE for marriages like yours. NOBODY ON THIS FORUM HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO HELP SAVE A MARRIAGE that is in your circumstances. Never, ever. If you would like to be the first, talk to Dr. Harley.

Have you written Dr. Harley yet?


Nobody wants to waste any time debating that with you. Whether you are right or not, we still have a PROVEN ZERO PERCENT TRACK RECORD on this, and we want you to know that you MUST talk to the professional, Dr. Willard Harley. If you aren't willing to do that, I would suggest that you save you, your wife, and your child from the fighting and heartache and quietly get a divorce.


Nobody wants to debate about whose marriages are more important than whose. According to Dr. Harley, who is an actual marriage expert and a professional unlike us amateur idiots here on the forum, your marriage is going to be extremely difficult to save. Believe me, if this forum ever helped a marriage like yours save itself, I'm sure Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce would turn cartwheels of joy and loudly proclaim it, but it has never happened. Dr. Harley and Joyce are passionate about saving marriages, so write them an email.


Nobody here wants to waste any time answering or debating this irrelevant question.

Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth - stop hearing things that nobody said, and start listening to what we did say.

Have you written Dr. Harley yet?

Your "affairage' is something you signed on for. If you want help, you need to contact Dr. Harley directly.


When you married your adultery partner, it became what Dr Harley calls an "affairage." Dr Harley has never saved one because they are so fragile, but he can try to help you.

Ok, we will do just that. Thanks for all of the advice here, and hopefully we'll be able to report back with some good news.

My apologies for being harsh.

But are you willing to accept reality? Reality is that you married a cheater. KNOWINGLY. That is like buying a dog and then complaining that he barks. The problem here is not her affair, but your inability to accept the consequences of your choices.

Can you accept reality?

Let me also add "You're having angry outbursts and punishing her and continuing to talk about the affair, so noone will judge her if she wants to walk away."

This is starting to actually sink in.

I guess I didn't believe that kind of behavior could be serial at the time. But in both instances I can see that affair-proofing would have prevented it.

One of the differences of opinion we had early on (and still do, to a lesser extent) was on opposite-sex friends. I can see now how truly dangerous that is, and that eventually, even the best-intentioned people will eventually develop attraction.

[/quote]

Let me also add "You're having angry outbursts and punishing her and continuing to talk about the affair, so noone will judge her if she wants to walk away." [/quote]

On the AO, absolutely. That is a demon I thought I had squashed long ago. But there is no punishment here, certainly not. I don't prescribe to vengeance. She feels that way I think, but when the affair comes up, it's typically the white elephant in the room. The hurt of the actual affair is very minimal at this point.

What ails right now are the actions SINCE d-day. I came to terms with the affair back when I discovered it. But her feeling like it was something she needed to hide, and that changes to prevent it recurring are controlling or unnecessary, is incredibly difficult to wrap my head around, unless it's intentional.

Fate, did you email Dr. Harley, yet?


Fate, you need to read Dr. Harley's book Love Busters, which will make clear the connection between angry outbursts and punishment.

Also, it's a punishment for her for you to even talk about the affair at this point.


Don't talk about the affair. Follow this rule. Follow this rule even if she breaks the rule.

Nothing "comes up." One or both of you talks about it. Don't do it.

You really shouldn't consider him your best friend at that time, even in retrospect. Maybe you were his but he was certainly not yours.

Did your W have children from her first marriage? Dr Harley has written to anoher BH in an affair-marraige before. I will clip out the part he included about blended families unless you come back and tell me she does have other children.

Dr Harley (clip) to the OM-husband who was posting here for help on his affairage:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2000767&page=2

So you see...even if you are able to get her to implement ironclad EP (which it sounds like basic ones are already being rejected) to prevent another affair, you have a bigger problem on your hands. One or both of you are going to reject POJA and have issues with dishonesty = unhappy marriage.

I have heard Dr Harley say that he has counseled couples before in troubled marriages and "nothing works" and he is scratching his head and finally they later reveal that they are in an affair marriage.

Sorry to be harsh, but you need to see what an uphill battle you face.

This forum isn't going to be able to help you. Like others suggested, you are going to get Dr Harley's help.

Susie, my wife has only one child, our son.

We spoke with Dr. Harley today, I am very hopeful again. My assignment is to avoid all of the love-busting behaviors and criticisms - no matter what. I know that I can be the husband that she needs and deserves.

Things were good before, as far as I knew, and now that I know, they're going to be that much better. The road ahead will be very difficult, I know, but I'm going to take it anyways.

Thank you for everyone's input. If you guys feel this thread should be closed, don't hesitate.

Thanks again!

On the radio?

Yes on Mbradio

I haven't had a chance to listen to the show yet.

What did Dr. Harley say?

As this couple is getting help directly from Dr. Harley, this thread is now locked.