Hello,

I am back to the forums. Have not been here in a long while. I updated my signature line (is that what it is called?). Since I was last on the forum we worked MB principals I'd say for 6-9 months then fell off and went back to coasting. Not scheduling UA, letting LBs creep in every once in a while. We had peaks and valleys for a few years. We decided to have another child (during a good time in our marriage) so now we have two DC.

Needless to say our relationship is a mess and there are so many issues that I am not sure if they can be fixed or if it's worth fixing. I will try to list out the issues.

#1 A few months ago my DH said he felt I did not love him and made some complaints about things I was doing, like not initiating enough SF, AOs. He did not use these terms exactly but it boiled down to not meeting ENs and committing LBs. I immediately worked to address the ENs and worked on stopping LBs. I am still working on stopping LBs, AOs and LBs are my worst. We recently completed the LB questionnaire, we are supposed to sit down tonight and go through them together.

#2 A couple weeks after the initial conversation in #1 above, I found out that he has met a female friend in his new grad program. Needless to say I was upset as he was keeping this hidden from me. Now I moved back in to having AOs and making DJs (no excuse for that behavior). Given our past history I was upset and immediately started snooping and preparing for exposure. At that time the conversation did not seem to be anything he would not say to a male friend so I didn't have anything to expose. I did tell our family that he has taken friendship with a woman knowing that I was not in agreement, they all know our past history. I am no longer snooping as he learned that I put spy ware on his phone and he was upset and now changed the password and guards it with his life. I still see text messages to and from her on our phone bill but I do not know the content of the messages. He was assigned to do group work with her at the beginning of the semester so I can not be sure what the messages are. I am trying to avoid AOs so I have not asked DH about this recently. The frequency and number of texts have lowered since I spoke with him and her a few weeks back when I first found out he was talking to this woman behind my back. Moral of this is that DH has poor boundaries when it comes to these friendships, we do not agree as to what is appropriate. My preference is that he would not have any new female friends. This for me is the biggest issue as even if we fix our connection to each other, if we do not agree on what the boundaries are, then my thought is that we will always be at odds and I will never be able to trust him.

#3 He is not a believer in the MB program. He agreed to work the program last time as he didn't want to lose our family. We have never really sustained a romantic, in-love type relationship for more than a few months so he doesn't think it's even possible. At this point, he says that he is not sure he wants to stay married.

He has been attending coaching calls as I signed us up before things went really downhill which was prior to my snooping and prior to him saying that he is not motivated to work on the marriage "right now".

We have two kids which is the only reason why I feel that I am so conflicted on whether I should call it quits or try to fight for my marriage. In the end, I want a marriage where I am best friends with my spouse and we are in love with each other. He doesn't agree that spouses should be best friends and is ok with friendships with the opposite sex, these are huge issues that I am not sure can be overcome?

Thanks for reading, and I welcome advice on how to tell whether I should just call it quits or keep fighting.

I remember you and sorry you are back.


This is unacceptable, RedsWife. The is not a "friendship". It is a budding EA if not more. Your H refuses to implement EPs and you two never recovered your M. This should be in SAA for any one of those three reasons, never mind all three.

I will notify the mods for you.

What is unacceptable exactly?

#1) ANY friendship with members of the opposite sex - regardless of whether it is a coworker or for any other reason, period.

#2) Lack of transparency

#3) A former ? WS saying that they are not a believer in MB - this is code for I refuse to give up my IB, SSL and make my marriage a priority. I have yet to see where this is not the case.

Any one of these issues ALONE is grounds for a move to Plan B for a BW, Redswife. And you have all three issues.

And now we have an additional issue:
If you were to resolve 1, 2 and 3 above, he will have to leave this grad program or she will have to.

Also your WH has such poor boundaries that he will need extra ExtraOrdinary Precautions since he has strayed several times. He probably cannot work or even be in an enviroment where he is spending long hours alone with women that he can chat with.

Him not allowing you transparency to the cell phone is unacceptable.

Him not believing in the Marriage Builders program is fine - but he needs to believe that he will LOSE you if he does not follow the program and provide you full transparency to any aspect of his life that you want to look at.

Totally agree. His guarding his cell phone is the only you need to go by after what you have been through. Can you plant a VAR (voice activated recorder) in his car?

Stop the angry outbursts, you know that. I only glanced at your old threads, but you know that any love busters right now will only hurt yourself in the long run, irregardless of what you choose to do. Do you want to call it quits?

Thanks SusieQ.

I agree that he probably cannot work or even be in an environment where he is spending long hours alone chatting with women. I am not sure whether he would give up his IB and put such EPs in place. Which if he doesn't then, I know that I should just call it quits.

markos and BlindSighted2013, thanks. I see his lack of transparency as a red flag as well. Up until he found out I put the spyware on his phone recently, I had all of his passwords and etc. I have thought about putting a VAR in his car. Will look in to it.

If he doesn't stop the IB and put EPs in place, then yes, I do. As much as it would hurt my children, I know that I can not continue to be married to someone who I can not trust & verify. I am just not sure of when or how to have this conversation with my H.

I listened to Dr. Harley's radio clips on AOs and have been AO free for the past two weeks. Thought I have had to avoid asking some questions and leave the house to avoid saying anything while I worked on thinking calm and relaxing thoughts when getting frustrated and angry.

RW, I would have this discussion with him immediately. Lay out the extraordinary precautions and if he won't agree and follow up with radical and verifiable changes, he should be asked to leave.

You can use this checklist as a guide along with my post on my exposure thread titled "The Aftermath"

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

i just read that this has been going on for years, so I don't recommend giving him those conditions because it will do no good. You should separate and file for divorce. Sadly, your husband will not stop and I think you know this.

Here you go. How to Plan B Correctly

But he has already been given the chance and has shown you that he is not willing to protect your M. He is chatting it up with women and refusing you access to his phone...he is actively unwilling.

Do you want to have to brow beat him and threaten him with divorce -- when he has already done this to you before -- in order to get him to behave for a short time? That's just kicking the can down the road.

Having a death grip on a WS is not pretty, RW. Not only is this not a good dynamic for your M - like markos eluded to earlier, you have set the bar so low that your WH knows he doesn't have to really make the is M a priority over things like grad school and girlfriends to chat with -- but this is extremely bad for your health.

Having lived with a WS who loved chatting it up with members of the OS -- while being gaslighted that I was worrying over nothing -- was a very dark time for me. It was like a huge cloud was lifted once I let go. I honestly don't know how I lived with that kind of stress.

#2 is in reference to someone new. He has had NC with the woman he was in an EA with ever since he sent her the NC letter in Jan 2010.

We have another MB coaching call scheduled this week so, I'll keep with it and trust the plan SH has for us. I will be sure to discuss with SH the advice for Plan B, Plan D and will work on putting the list of EPs in place.

ML knows that this is in reference to a new OW.

That's exactly what she is referring to, the fact that your WH is doing this AGAIN. This is a different situation tha, I was chatting with someone at work, and they met my ENs and OOPS I fell in love and don't know how this happened!

Your WH is a multiple offender (a much worse situation than what you think ML was referring to, broke NC with OW1) who looks to get his needs met outside of the marriage and he doesn't care about your feelings on it - clearly.

Coaching with SH would be GREAT if your WH was needing motivation and encouragement with the ENs, avoiding LB$ and UA/POJA part of the program.

Coaching does not help you when you have a multiple offending WH in the throes of an EA, refusing EPs and transparency, who leads a lifestyle that has left the door wide open for him to chat with women.

You can't "talk" a wayward out of an affair, Redswife - you know this.

Redswife, will you please let us coach you to do what Marriage Builders says to do in such a situation?

Because you need to draw a line and separate from your husband until and unless he agrees to actually follow Marriage Builders.

This is what Dr. Harley recommends in situations like yours.

I am going to take everyone's advice and separate from my husband. I am not going to move directly to Plan D but will move in to Plan B with a legal separation. If he will not agree to actually following Marriage Builders then I will move to Plan D. We have to wait a year for a D in my home state anyway.

I have spoken with an attorney who will be drawing up some paperwork. I want to be sure to we have a legal agreement given we have two children involved and I will be moving out of state.

Thanks for being honest with me and helping me to see what I already knew.

Off to re-educate myself on Plan B and write a Plan B letter.

[/quote]

Redswife, will you please let us coach you to do what Marriage Builders says to do in such a situation?

Because you need to draw a line and separate from your husband until and unless he agrees to actually follow Marriage Builders.

This is what Dr. Harley recommends in situations like yours. [/quote]

Definitely, I am all ears!

You have this, correct?
How to Plan B Correctly

Yes, I do. I'm going to speak with a friend about being my IM. Will send her the link to IM school. I'll ask SH his thoughts on whether I should ask my husband to leave or move out of our apartment as I am not the lease holder so I think I need to move out. Working on my PBL. I will post it here once I have it written.

You are going to be so much happier and healthier going this route.

The good thing about the way Plan B works is there is no "Plan D." You stop seeing or talking to him, and you feel better. He might choose to reconcile with you by following MB, and that would be great, or you might be divorced. But even if you end up divorced, that's not any different from Plan B. You take this step and it's the right way to move regardless of whether or not this eventually ends in divorce.

Yes, I guess Plan B would be more of a softer blow for me. I don't easily accept defeat. I know it is likely he won't want to reconcile but for the sake of my children, I want to give him the opportunity to choose to change. If he doesn't, I'll move on and care for my children as a single mom.

Plan B will be your greatest victory either way. It is not defeat to stand firm by the ideals of marriage and refuse scornfully a counterfeit one. Plan B is a refuge, a walled city which cannot be beseiged in war time. Either your conditions are met, or not, but their loss. Their defeat. Evil does not win.



It is easiest to do any task, including child rearing, with a willing partner. It is hardest to do it with a dead weight dragging you down. Single motherhood is somewhere in the middle. It won't be anywhere near as hard as what you are used to.

I wonder if you know what a wonderful example you will be setting for them about what a marriage should be, and what is unacceptable by taking this brave stand. I suspect you will come to see this if not.

Eventually I will see it, I guess. Thanks for the encouragement.

You shouldn't look at separating from a serial cheating WS as "defeat". You can't force anyone to do anything against their will, including being a good spouse or parent.

All you can do is do your best - and in this case that means not enabling someone who is abusing you and gaslighting you.

Glad to hear that you are going into Plan B. I would advise you to save the SH sessions for your WH should he cry about wanting you back while you are in Plan B (as most cake eating serial cheaters do) - you can let that be part of your PB requirements or save it in case recovery becomes possible at one point.

You would be better off calling Dr Harley for free on the radio show in terms of your actual separation.

Separating from an abusive spouse is a victory.

Another way to put this, RW, as long as you allow it, your WH will use your intense desire to keep your family together against you. Ask me how I know.

Plan B is not another way to try get him to do what you want. It is letting go.

Thanks apples and SusieQ. It's hard for me to let go, though I know I should.

I talked with a landlord today about possibly sub-leasing an apartment. He was supposed to get back to me but didn't so I will get with him again tomorrow.

My plan is to file for legal separation after I move out. Hopefully I can be moved out by the end of this week. I moved a lot as a kid and hate that my kids are being put through this.

Having a hard time writing the Plan B letter. Will get that posted as soon as I have it done.

Here's what I have for my plan B letter. I am open to any and all feedback. Thank you!

Dear Husband,

It is with tears in my eyes that I write you this letter. I am saddened by what has become of us, our friendship, our marriage, our family.

I acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I neglected your needs, had angry outbursts and failed to show you that I love you many times. This probably helped create an environment in our marriage that allowed you to decide not to work on our marriage. I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to create a mutually satisfying marriage. I feel that I have been learning ways to be the type of woman that I hope you would be proud to call your wife, as I have so many times felt pride in calling you my husband. I so want to be able to create and sustain a strong marital connection, filled with passion, love and friendship.

The past four months have been very difficult for me. We seemed to start our life Out of State on a good note, only to slip at caring for our marriage and each other again. We have neglected our marriage again and lost our foundation of trust and respect. Until you want to willfully, work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be moving out and having no communication with you. This is because it is too painful for me and I cannot tolerate neglect, apathy and disinterest toward our marriage.

I want us to be a team, and restore our marriage together. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. With God's help, I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. I want to grow old with you.

When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our rebuilding our marriage, go to counseling, and end your friendship with your classmate. I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.

Your loving wife,

My 2cents

Thank you! I wondered if the letter was too wordy.

I really dislike the use of the word "friendship" here. We all know this is not a friendship and calling it that just continues to enable your WH's gaslighting.

I would use "inappropriate relationship" or "emotional affair".

Why are you continuing to call this a friendship?

Call it an emotional affair. If he is willing to wreck his marriage, it is an affair.

I will change the wording to call it what it is, an emotional affair.

A family member suggested that I ask him to move in order to avoid moving my children yet again. They are concerned because we just moved to this state less than 6 months ago. Anyone have thoughts on that?

you could certainly ask him to leave.

So the landlord may not have the unit available until 2-3 weeks from now. If that's the case do I give my husband the letter now with the date or hold the letter until my move in date? I'm so ready to leave and be in a less stressful environment.

Is he moving or are you? I would give him the Plan B letter when he leaves.

As of now, I am planning to move out. My question earlier was in light of a family member who suggested he move. I wanted to get the MB folks perspective on that.

Sounds like if the apartment isn't available for a couple weeks, I should hold off on giving the letter until the day I move. Correct?

I am going to look at another apartment tomorrow, just in case this first one falls through.

I just saw in another thread that you don't give the letter until you can end all contact with WS so, I will hold off on giving him the letter until my move day.

I wish we had family or friends here so that my kids and I can stay at someone's place until my apartment is ready. I guess I won't ask him to leave given I won't be able to get the locks changed, he would need to request it since he is the lease holder for our current home.