Background:
Wife and I have been married for 11yrs, total of 13yrs as a couple. We have two children, 4yo daughter and 2.5yo son. Our marriage has always had an undercurrent of unhappiness, mostly on her part. We had a separation where she was unhappy and left for about a 9mo period roughly 5yrs ago. She eventually returned and we had our first child shortly after that.

We�re both Engineers and I�ve never been comfortable about how friendly she�s been around her male colleagues. Basically felt she was emotionally cheating on me but could never put a name to it until recently. This in turn made me feel inadequate, fearful of her leaving, and in turn I pulled away emotionally and physically.

Current Situation:
Started to get suspicious of her activity about 4 weeks ago. She had set a password on her cell phone, never had one before and seemed to be �secretly� texting a lot. I was able to hack her phone and found about a dozen txt messages back and forth with another guy. I was in shock and didn�t read them all but saw enough for me to immediately kick her out of the house. She left that night without hesitation, very little remorse, and a simple sorry apology. She left that night and went to stay with a girlfriend.

A week passed with her coming over to see the kids just about every day for a few hours. After that period of time she asked to come back home and I obliged. I let her sleep in our bed and I slept downstairs. Soon after that she decided that she wanted a divorce, she�d move out, and we could have joint custody of the kids. With all the emotion going on at the time I said that I�d still like to save the marriage but agreed to let her move forward with the divorce if that�s what she felt she needed to do.

That was also when I realized the feelings of fear and shame that she had put me through all these years. So it hit me and I verbalized it to her, I said �I�m not afraid of you any more�. Since that day I�ve been acting like a different husband and father. Not out of trying to save the marriage but just realizing that I am a good person and a happy person. Basically learning to be myself again.

Two weeks ago she and some girlfriends spent the night in Chicago. Apparently she told them the whole story of our 11yr marriage, literally exposing herself with no hesitation. Well a few days later word got back around to me that this was not the first time she had cheated on me. I confronted her calmly and asked she tell me the whole truth. Turns out this was the third time with the first one dating back about 8yrs. I was in total shock and so was she, somehow she thought I knew all this already.

So we spent the rest of that evening exposing herself to me, talking it through. We were both very emotional. She was sobbing, extremely apologetic, saying she was a horrible person, and that I deserved better. She feels that she couldn�t be the wife I needed her to be, she doesn�t know what love is, cant love any one, doesnt know who she is, and has blamed me (internally) for her unhappiness in the marriage. Told me that she had exposed herself to all her close friends and parents. She exposed herself to her parents the first night I kicked her out. Called them on the way to her girlfriends house. This was huge because she comes from a fairly strict Christian household. The whole time I never attacked her emotionally or judged her at all. Told her that I still loved her and even knowing all that I wasn�t going to run or let her run and I still wanted to work things out.

Along with the exposure I sent the lastest guy, a co-worker of hers, a message on Facebook calling him out. Guy 1 was a co-worker in Detroit (we live in Indiana now) and is no longer in the picture, Guy 2 was another co-worker and no longer lives in town, Guy 3 is a temporary co-worker and will be moving in January.

Since that day our relationship has actually be amazing: open, honest conversation, doing nice things for one another. I�ve already started to get past the physical aspect of her cheating. We�re both in individual therapy. But she insists on continuing the divorce process and her moving out.

Last night, after reading some stories on this forum I decided to deflate the air mattress that she was sleeping on in the basement and insist she sleep back in our bed, I would sleep on the floor. She asked why and I told her she was still my wife and I was not going to put any more physical separations between us. She insisted on me sleeping in the bed and her on the floor. I told her there was only two options: I sleep in the bed with her, or I sleep on the floor. After a couple minutes she decided to let me into the bed with her.

There�s always been a hidden sexual side of her that only comes out when she been drinking (and she�s admitted that she was the times she�s cheated on me). She�s also been having some bi-sexual/lesbian fantasys lately. So I kept trying to get her to verbalize those feelings and let her know that I was �accepting� of them. Well long story short we ended up having sex last night. She consented to the sex if I agreed to keep moving with the divorce proceedings and she actually agreed to �conjugal visits� after she moves out (probably in the next couple of weeks).

She�s been giving me all kinds of mixed signals since the night I kicked her out four weeks ago: �I don�t know how to love� - �I want to love you�, talking about doing family outings after she moves out, asking to remaining friends after she moves out/post-divorce, maybe we'll remarry later in life, asking me to help her find her new place, actually pulling me in for a hug this morning. Those are just a few of the examples.

But continues to move forward with the divorce and moving out to and getting her own place. She feels like she�s jumping on the grenade that is herself. She doesn�t want to hurt me any more, doesn�t want to hurt anyone else, and wants to figure out who she is on her own.

So��.I still want to save the marriage or if I cant stop the divorce find a way to save our relationship long term (remarry).

I feel like I�m heading down the right path, doing the right things. Would like some advice on what to do moving forward, and criticisms if I�ve done anything wrong so far.


Thanks in advance.

Welcome to MB, and I'm sorry to read about this.

She's still having an affair -with someone, if not either of the two you know about.

Is she? She says no. She works with the 3rd guy, he's in another building but she has no day to day contact with him. So she says.

Now that you say that I think I need to confront her this evening and have her unlock her phone and let me see it again. I say that because I know she's changed her password since the last time I was able to unlock it.

See if she'll let you read it away from her, and put some spyware on it. Ask her for her password before you take it away.

If she hands it over, that means there's nothing on it - but all THAT might mean is that she has deleted stuff.

I'd be surprised if she hands it over - and if she does not, that tells you a lot - but if she does, do the above.

You can't believe anything that a wayward says - especially not one that is still working with the OM.

Especially one that is a multiple cheater.

Especially one that is still pursuing separation/divorce.

With workplace affairs, unless one of them literally leaves the job (you can verify this independently - not through what the WS tells you) then you should just assume the affair is still ON.

Always - no exception.

And with a non-workplace affair, you still cannot assume that there is NC in place unless you are actively snooping.

Which you are not if you don't know what she's doing on her phone.

Sorry for all the bad news - but we can't sugar coat things for BS's who show up here in their own fog.

Only people that are hiding things lock their phones.

Thanks everyone. I will start first with asking for her cell phone. If she does not what is my next course of action? I know I can get a hold of her bosses at work but I do not want to cause issues with her at work. But from all that I've read on here maybe that's what it'll take.

She was seeing someone during that separation. He is probably the reason she left.

She left two tiny children quite happily? It takes a pretty hard woman to do that. She was pursuing her affair.

She wants a divorce in order to pursue a specific affair, or to enjoy the single woman's sex life that she has already tasted.

There were more than three. She's been exploring her sexuality for a long time. Ask the girlfriends directly how many there were.

You need to expose this affair properly. You only have her word that she confessed this to anybody. Have you spoken to her parents about what she told them?

You need to find out about his domestic life and expose him to his spouse and family, and to their employer. What did you hope to achieve by sending him a message on Facebook? Do you think he's scared of you now?

She is insisting on this because she wants to continue her affair, and live the single life.

She is very happy that you have accepted her lifestyle so completely. She is willing to have sex with and maintain a friendly face, since you are so accepting and are cooperating with the friendly divorce.

You need to get yourself STD tested, and you should not go near her, even with a condom, unless you are happy to pick up whatever she might pick up in the future. You are having sex with all her sexual partners, and all their sexual partners. Have you any idea how many people that is?

You're the dream husband for the married woman who wants to have sex with other people! Of course she gives you hugs, and wants to remain friends with you! You're a peach!

Tell her to look at the name and picture on her driving licence. She can find out who she is from the information there.

You're welcome.

Michlove4

You are in such deep denial, i hope you can pull yourself out of it. You actually believe what she says, waywards that are this brazen, repetitive and lengthy can't possibly tell the truth. Have you independently, personally verified anything she has told you?

Terms like gaslight, and cuckhold come to mind immediately.

Wake up and read the thread Exposure 101 and do it.

Are any of these OM married?

Well you guys were completely right. There was a 4th guy from New Orleans that she's been txting for weeks. And the affair with the 3rd hasn't eneded.

I asked for her cell phone and she immediately started deleting messages but did hand it over. I sent txt back to them stating who I was and that things end. The coworker (3rd guy) I told him no contact or I'll get in touch with their HR dept.

She was furious that I took her phone. Like an addict that lost her Crack pipe.


WTF do I do now?!?!?!

She's been angry, denial, wants to walk out the house but doesnt. Agreed things are out of control but her and I are incompatible.

She agreed to start couples counceling.

Have you read this? Exposure 101

You need to get your exposure targets ready.

Is this 4th guy married?

How did she meet this guy?

I read exposure 101 but don't know it by heart. I'll re-read it again

She meant him on a girls trip to New Orleans. No idea if he's married

Did you do as I said and install spyware on the phone?

How will you know if there is further contact?

First, you might want to ask yourself if you want to stay married to a serial adulterer. She has quite a history, that keeps growing. I guarantee you still don't know the full extent, depth and probably more partners.

For Exposure-
You uncover all the intelligence you need, including names, addresses, phone numbers of OM(s), OM(s) wife, parents, Facebook friends, your family, her family clergy, work place HR dept and company executives.
You massively tell everyone on that list that your wife is in an affair and you want to save the marriage. There is a template on what to say. You expose in one fell swoop. You do not tell your wife you are going to do it.
You expose it at the workplace, since this is a workplace affair(s).
Then you brace for the rage and protect yourself.
I guarantee she has not told her parents, her friends or anyone that matters.

You want to get tested for STD's, you might want to consider paternity testing.

Do you see that all the nice behaviours towards you recently were all designed to throw you off the scent of the affairs? The hugs? The sex with you, and the promise of conjugal visits later?

What is the point of couples' counselling, for you?

Don't you see that her agreement to go to this is again designed to make you think that she is trying, when really, she won't be trying at all?

If you have read anything on here, you must be aware of how dangerous our posters have found marital counselling to be. The counsellor will encourage you to "communicate" with each other, which will mean your listening while your wife tells you how unhappy you have made her and why she must fly free. The counsellor will then encourage your wife to do what makes her happy, and encourage you to accept that you cannot keep her in an unhappy marriage. The counsellor will have NO strategy to end the affair, and create romantic love in your marriage. Marital counselling has a greater chance of ENDING your marriage than rebuilding it.

Have you listened to the clips in here?
Beware of Bad Counselors

I've been contemplating that the deeper the rabbit hole gets.

We agrees that I'd keep the phone through tomorrow cause I don't know what else to do. I plan on sending out exposure letter/emails to all of her close friends and family. As well as an email to her coworkers

I would like her to understand that her actions have been the reasons our marriage hasn't been happy and fulfilling. She's been sabotaging it from year 3

That Is exactly what her therapist has been feeding her the last month. That we're incompatible and she just needs to follow her heart and move on

Should the exposure to friends/family include past affairs or just current ones?

You are not listening, you are not doing exposure correct. You want to go to counseling, therapist? Wow, recipe for disaster and yes you will end up divorced for sure.

So good luck as you keep contemplating

What about a faith based marriage counseling?

That would be great if most faith based marriage counselors knew how to save marriages.

Don't look for a mere "pro-marriage" counselor

Most faith based marriage counselors I know take the approach of trying to teach you to accept the end of the feeling of romantic love. And it only gets worse from there.

Stop right now and go listen to this.

We have not had any better reports from this than with other kinds. Indeed, most of our posters are Christian, and of those that went to counselling, most specifically sought out Christian counselling. Some went for counselling with their own pastor.

The problem is that counsellors do not have the goal, nor do they have a proven strategy, to build romantic love within a marriage. Christian counselling will certainly have the goal of supporting the marriage and avoiding divorce, but without a set of objectives that are tried, tested and proven to create and maintain romantic love, the unhappiness within the marriage will not be resolved, and the couple will not be happier, and in love. A couple that is in love will not divorce. A couple that has learned to "communicate" their grievances (the focus of most counselling) can still be unhappy and can still divorce.

If an affair is ongoing, Christian and other counsellors do not use Dr Harley's methods to end the affair permanently - moving house, changing jobs, changing career altogether if the career facilitates affairs (such as airline work and mixed hospital environments). Such extraordinary measures are considered far too extreme for mot counsellors, who prefer to rely on "trust".

For most people having an affair, it is the specific affair partner that is the attraction. The unfaithful spouse did not go out looking for sex on the side; they breached certain boundaries, and formed friendships with someone from work, or re-established contact with an old boyfriend or girlfriend. Therefore although the couple needs to take extraordinary measures to avoid that affair partner for life, such as moving house or changing jobs, and they need to create a transparent, integrated life so that neither could have an affair without the other knowing (accessing each other's phones and emails, for example), the "extraordinary precautions" that Dr Harley recommends are really no more than the precautions that everyone should take from the day they get married. We should always have had integrated lives, where we do not socialise in mixed company without our spouse, and where secrets are not possible. However, in the case of the routine affair, the unfaithful spouse does not have to avoid the opposite sex altogether. They can still go out to work, and they can still go shopping and walk the kids to school. They can still use the Internet.

However, with an unfaithful spouse who has had several affairs, who is either very susceptible to the slightest attention, or who actively trolls for affairs, a normal lifestyle is no longer possible if the marriage is to be rebuilt. The couple will need to be together at all times, so that lone contact with the opposite sex is not possible. They would need to work together, perhaps by starting a business.

Dr and Mrs Harley, who have never had affairs, work together and are in each other's company for most of the day. They don't socialise with friends without each other. They don't go to the gym without each other. Mrs Harley attends a women-only Bible study class, not a mixed one and so on. Their lives are structured so that, not only is lone, opposite-sex contact almost impossible, but each would know instantly if an affair were developing - online, or face-to-face. That is the kind of marriage and lifestyle that you would need to create if your marriage to an attention seeking, flighty, promiscuous, confused, "finding herself", serially cheating wife were to be successful. Would she agree to that lifestyle? If not, forget trying to recover with her.

Does your Christian counsellor know all the above? Does he or she have proven, successful programme for rebuilding a marriage where a serially-cheating spouse is involved? I suspect not; I suspect that he or she will focus very much on rebuilding Christianity within the marriage as a means of creating faithfulness, but not on practical strategies to meet emotional needs only inside the marriage, and never outside it.

If you want counselling, you should first, write to Dr Harley at the radio show, telling him your marital history and asking for his advice, which will be free of charge. He will invite you to discuss the problem on the radio show, which means you and your wife (if she will cooperate) could talk to him for up to an hour. If you don't want to be on the radio show, he will address your email on the air.

After that, you should use the Marriage Builders telephone coaching service, which is run by Dr Harley's children, Steven Harley and Dr Jennifer Chalmers (Jennifer is co-author of the book Surviving an Affair - which you should have read by now. I don't know if it has been recommended to you yet, but if not, get it now, in print or download, from Amazon.) The coaching service is not "counselling"; it does not encourage you to spend weeks, months and sometimes years looking into personal and emotional history, and working out what is within the unfaithful spouse that needs resolving before they can move forward. The coaching service uses Dr Harley's MB programme to change the conditions of today and the future: to end the affair, prevent any more affairs developing, and create a loving, romantic marriage. Steve and Jennifer are both excellent at getting reluctant, unhappy, unfaithful spouses on board with Marriage Builders, and they do not allow the conflicts of the past to be dragged into sessions, which, when it is done, leaves both spouses feeling angrier than before the session started, and does not create love.

Send an email to Dr Harley today, right now, and then click "coaching centre" in the red area at the top of every page on this site. Since your wife has agreed to do counselling, she can be persuaded to agree to Harley coaching, and to cooperate with an email to Dr Harley directly at the radio show, instead.

How can I contact Dr Harley?

office@marriagebuilders.com

No, use this one:

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

All her affairs.

Just FYI, that I really doubt that she has told you the entire truth of what she has been up to all these years in her SSL (secret second life). The only way to know for sure is to have a poly.

You may want to be sure your daughter is in fact yours given this timeline and WW's serial cheating. Sorry but I would not attempt recovery with a serial cheater. Your WW is not remorseful as your title states either...tears mean nothing. If you do want to attempt to recovery the marriage, you will literally have to babysit your WW for life. Are you honestly prepared for that? That her affairs are workplace affairs...her job has to go.

Welcome to MB

Along the lines of what SC said, no counseling, coaching or any of the other recovery steps are going to work unless your WW drastically changes her lifestyle to make cheating impossible.

You have a serial cheater on your hands, so not only does she like having her needs met outside of marriage, but she is so used to living a SSL that it becomes a bad habit - a habit that is extremely hard to break.

Is she willing to give up all her IB? That means GNOs are done, recreational time away from you, travel -- anything like that needs to go bye bye.

Is she willing to give you complete transparency? All passwords to all social medial, email, etc? You will also need spy ware on all of her devices and you will need to watch her closely for a very long time to make sure she has truly given up her SSL.

That's just a start. You need to look closely at her lifestyle and what has enabled her to pursue all of these affairs undetected and eliminate them.

I would have that discussion with her BEFORE you talk to Dr Harley. That way you don't have to waste an email and phone call.

That was a bad move. You don't threaten. You expose and nuke the affair.

Girls trips to Party Town Big Easy?!

Look if you aren't prepared to have your wife quit her job, stop going on girl trips, etc then save yourself a lot of additional headache and heartache and just get divorced because none of this can go on in the future. You will be trying to bandaid a sucking chest wound. Your lifestyle will have to DRAMATICALLY change to recover from any affair but even more so with a serial cheater.

Thank you everyone. The serial cheating is weighing heavily on my mind right now.

I dont care to have a paternity test. Whether the kids are biologically mine or not I love them to death and will do anything for them.

Totally understandable.

But regardless of whether you want to pursue recovery or not - you should still expose and you should approach her about making lifestyle changes (eliminating all IB) and becoming 100% transparent.

It will only help you make your decision. And even if she agreed, you don't have to pursue recovery.

In other words, there is no reason to put off having that conversation with her.

I have finished the exposure and so far going really well. The messages to his Facebook friends must have been really damaging. He actually sent me an email apologizing and asking me to stop.

Also my wife found out about the email I sent to some of the supervisors at their work because she sent me a txt telling me she found out.

I sent txt and email to both of her parents and I dont think that one has come back around to bite her yet.


I think I'm going to let some time past and the dust to settle before I do much of anything else.

Did you hit all the OM, and the OM wives, OM parents?

You need to send the email to the HR department and her supervisor, the OM supervisor and a company executive.
All her FB friends?
The children?

If you havent exposed to the above, you are not finished.

I am finished regardless. I reuse to cause any more damage. If she refuses to acknowledge her addiction at this point I am going to go dormant for awhile. I've been fighting as hard as I can and have no more fight left right now.

I may ask her to compose an email to her close friends tonight. But I'm not going to push it.

Half an exposure is a weak exposure.

I refuse to tear that bandaid off. It hurts.

Regardless of how much pus is growing under it.

In my experience, this will cause MORE resentment for her than if you just expose.

Dr. Harley advises against having the wayward expose herself.

Just rip the bandaid off and be done with it.

To be clear, you didnt cause the damage!!!! DO NOT take the blame for telling the truth.

I understand your feeling of being done fighting, but one of the main tennants of exposure is to be broad and deep with exposure and hitting any place that is a soft spot to crush the affair. Particular focus on the the other person spouse and family can be devastating to the affair.

Exposure is your job, not hers. You don't talk about it, just act.

You exposing: therapeutic for both of you and recommended by Dr. Harley, who is a therapist.

Making her expose herself: demanding; forcing her to DO something painful and embarrassing; feels punitive (like a father and a child); hard to get over.

I'm just loosing faith that its going to do any good. She's a serial cheater. The life I'd have to live with her from now on is to much for me to endure right now. I come from a divorce family, with an alcoholic father.

Marrying her was an escape from that. Our first few years were magical and her family was the best. Its all been downhill from there and I dont want to live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder. I may expose more to her friends later tonight but I'm emotionally drained.

Hey MichLove4,
Sounds like you might have married Ex-Mrs WalktheWalk, or at least her twin sister. It also sounds like you are making a lot of the same mistakes I did. I didn't expose big enough, I figured that when she came clean about one POSOM, that was it, not that she threw one under the bus because she was grooming another coworker to be her next POSOM.

Please listen to the posters here, don't make the strategic and tactical mistakes I made. I sense that you are well-intentioned, but see you ending up failing if you don't start executing the program.

Make a plan with the help you find here,execute that plan. You will have a far higher chance of success. The path to success is much narrower when dealing with a serial cheater.

Be prepared for nastiness and anger from her and possibly the in-laws.
You only did partial exposure, so you have given the other parties a chance to rally, re-align stories, spin you as a lunatic, etc.

Well just fired off my last message to all her close friends and copied her on it. This should be a fun weekend to be around her.

Not sure if this is the place for this but up until I found out about her multiple affairs I was using my amateur physco-analytical skulls to figure her out. Now that I've exposed her I started to realize that she's always gone after unavailable me

1) She drove 6hrs to visit him
2) Was I think going through a divorce or was separated at the time
3) Co-worker that is leaving in January
4) Some random dude that she met in New Orleans and lives in TN or KY

She has major issues with her Dad. Mom and Dad were "happily married" but come to find out that Mom is unhappy but stuck it out foe the kids and Dad is distant (always working in the barn) and never validated her feelings and wants. Gets upset and angry when he doesn't get his way, even though the rest of the family wants to do something else

This is so her:

Constantly craving and searching for a romantic relationship

When in a relationship, being desperate to please and fearful of the other�s unhappiness

Inability to maintain an intimate relationship once the newness and excitement have worn off

Choosing partners who are emotionally unavailable and/or verbally or physically abusive

Choosing partners who demand a great deal of attention and caretaking but who do not meet, or even try to meet, your emotional or physical needs

Using sex, seduction, and manipulation (guilt/shame) to �hook� or hold on to a partner

Kaaaaaboooooommmmmmm

If exposure was the goal today that was a direct hit! She is absolutely pissed at me. More fallout tomorrow as she doesn't know that I told her parents. Found a txt from her Mom and they'll be talking tommorrow.

The greater the anger the more devastating the exposure was to the affair and behaviors.

Work was her hidding place to carry out her second life and that came all crashing down today

This. Have you exposed to all of the above? Under 3, children don't really understand. From age 7, you must expose to children. Your daughter is in between. If your 4yo daughter can understand it is wrong for mommy to have a boyfriend, you should tell her.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_exposed.html
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

Yeah I hit all those. Her second affair was a coworker at the same place as the third. Now that her supervisors are aware of her problem I'm tempted to send a follow up email stating the current affair is not the first and this is an ongoing issue for her. Thoughts?

I'll take a look and gage if my daughter needs to know or can comprehend

Good idea!

How old is she?

Turns 4 January 11th.

I am sure that child is too young to understand, wouldn't you agree? Some 4 year olds can get it, but I think it is stretch for a 3 yr old.

Have you done all of your other exposures? I was skimming through your thread and read that you were hesitant to expose and felt it was damaging. Exposure is the most therapeutic thing you can do for your marriage. I just want to make sure you know this and have done a thorough exposure.

Yes I have. Only thing in debating is a follow up email that I just mentioned. I feel thus may jeperdize her job. But then again work is definitely her secret second life hiding place

She has jeopardized her job with her unprofessional behavior. The best thing that could happen to you all is her losing her job.

Believe me, if she loses her job, it won't say because "her husband told us XXXXX." The reason will be her OWN unprofessional behavior.

True. How do I deal with the fallout from that

What do you mean?

]
[/quote]

What exactly did you tell the workplace? Did you give the facts about her affair along with the OM's name? Why is there this confusion?

I gave them facts and names about the current affair. Last night I was able to sit back and realize all her infidelity is at the work olace. I feel I've left a loose end by not exposing the other affair she had at the same company

Gotcha.

Exactly who did you notify at her work?

If you did not go to the VP of HR and another VP you fell short. Underlings like to cover up problems, especially if they are friends with the OM.
Companies don't like the trouble these things lead to.
You might want to consider talking to an attorney about this, as it appears to be tacitly approved policy to support adultery. You might have grounds for a lawsuit. A well crafted letter from an attorney to the head of HR will be laser guided bomb that will blow up affair land quickly.