Hello, I wish I found this website a month ago. Reading the forum posts really opened my eyes and helps me cope with my current situation.
My wife and I have been married for over 17 years in a seemingly happy and stable marriage. We have an 11 year old son that we spend most of our free time and energy on. We are financially secure and I earn about 90% of the income while she holds a part-time job for 20 hours a week.
Seventeen years ago, or six months after our marriage, she had an Emotional Affair (as best as I could determine) with her ex-boyfriend who lived on another continent. I stumbled onto dozens of mostly flirtatious emails to each other and I believe they only met once for lunch. After seeing a marriage counselor and reconciling, we recommitted to our marriage and I vowed to be more emotionally supportive and she vowed to stop communicated with the OM. We waited six more years to have our boy, after I established the relationship was going to last and that we were happy together, which I believed we were.
Our relationship had steadily grown distant over the recent years, as our life has become routine as we focused all of our energy on our son. Three weeks ago, an argument aroused my suspicions again. I discovered that she has been corresponding with the OM again. In fact, I hacked her phone and found that it goes back for at least 9 years! None of the emails were explicitly sexual but there was a lot of innuendo, and that he wanted to hold her �until she�s 90� and that they cared for each other. There were several selfies headshots sent by both parties. The OM had just had his second divorce in March this year and she was complaining to him about me. It looks like they may have only physically met once for lunch a year ago. However, she was planning her separation from me and he was supportive and planning a visit later this month with her. He promised her his support and for her to be brave.
I confronted her without showing the actual email evidence, and asked her why the betrayal of her promise to me!?! Of course, she denied there was any affair since the OM is so geographically far from us. She gave the standard lines, that we had grown apart over 17 years, especially the past year, and that I�ve been cold and distant and would never change. I hadn�t seen the advice from this site yet so I stupidly started groveling and asking for forgiveness and said I would change my ways. Of course these were all rejected. Since our confrontation, she now sleeps in our guest bedroom although she hasn�t moved out to her mother�s as she had originally threatened. I am still secretly monitoring her email and so far there has not been any more contact to the OM. I analyzed her GPS movement from her phone and it doesn�t appear to have any suspicious movements for the past year at least.
Out of desperation, I went my mother-in-law without telling my wife and showed her the emails (she was actually very much the force behind our reconciliation the first time). She initially claimed that her daughter�s relationship was purely platonic until I produced the emails. She saw that I was sincere and serious and promised that she will tell her daughter to stay overnight and try to help my cause.
My question to the group is, given this email evidence doesn�t explicitly prove a Sexual Affair, but definitely is an Emotional Affair, what should I do? Should I proceed with Exposure? I think I can trust my MIL to a certain extent but after that she is always her daughter. How do I get my wife back? Help!
Thank you!

Hello Lost, welcome to Marriage Builders. Exposure is the most effective weapon you have against the affair. This affair has thrived and grown for years and will probably end in her leaving you for him if you don't run him off and kill the affair.

I would strongly suggest that you expose it and make life so miserable for him that he will stop sniffing around like a dirty dog in heat. OM are typically cowards and dirtbags, so they are very easy to run off.

I predict that much of the detachment and marital problems you have had for years stem from this ongoing affair. Your wife has remained checked out for years, making it impossible for you to fill her lovebank.

Please go read my exposure thread for tips and come back and lets discuss.

Does she have a cell phone? There are many ways she can contact the OM with a cell phone, ie: texting, applications, etc. Do you have a keylogger on her computer?

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly!
Do you suggest I confront the OM directly (via email)? I don't have his number (from 16 years ago) and I'm still trying to figure out how they had the phone conversation two weeks ago. When I did it 16 years ago he defended himself saying it was just a "friendship." I called BS on that back then, saying it's impossible for people to have a platonic friendship after being sexual partners like that. He told me he had no interest but was only "helping" my wife cope.
I've read some advice on other websites to not confront the OM as it will just make me seem weak and desperate.
I've already exposed my wife to the person she most values, her mother. Do you think I should proceed? She does have a friend that knew about the event sixteen years ago but I'm afraid she'll just look at it as platonic as well, because unless you read the entire trove of emails and understand the background it may seem innocent to most people.
As for the technology, I put her phone is on prepaid plan so she cannot make international calls. I have also checked the phone log and it doesn't have any suspicious numbers (even calling card #'s) and I have an old phone that has all the passwords so I can still track her GPS movements and incoming emails. So far I haven't turned up anything else other than the emails.
Thanks!

I would confront him, but only AFTER you expose to his family and friends. You sure won't look weak and desperate if you do that and then call and inform him that hell is coming his way if he EVER contacts your wife again. An OM will not want the trouble. The only reason he has kept this up is because it was some cheap fun with no consequences.


So, you would want to make up a list of close family and friends and expose to them using the talking points on my exposure thread. Her friend can't view it as platonic if you give her the evidence.


So she can text or skype from her computer. What about text messages?

]
The advice we give here comes from Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair. Actually, to NOT confront the OM and run him off makes you look complacent and weak, as if you don't care. Here is what he says: here

LLost, once you have exposed her affair wide and far and done your best to run this rat off, Dr. Harley would advise that you DEMAND she end her affair and never speak or see this man again. Once her affair has ended and your marriage is affair proofed, you would use the steps of this program to create a passionate, romantic marriage.

[/quote]I would confront him, but only AFTER you expose to his family and friends. You sure won't look weak and desperate if you do that and then call and inform him that hell is coming his way if he EVER contacts your wife again. An OM will not want the trouble. The only reason he has kept this up is because it was some cheap fun with no consequences. [/quote]

Ok, I'm going to research how to find the information, since he's an ocean away and we have no mutual acquaintances other than my wife. I cannot see any of his friends on Facebook though... Will make the list to confront, but do you think I should wait until my MIL has had a chance to confront her first (she promised me she will do that in the next few days and she said she will call the OM herself!)? I don't want to burn that bridge just yet because she was an important ally the last go around. She was very sympathetic to me when I met with her a couple days ago and showed her the evidence. I do think she understand my value versus the twice-divorced loser OM.

[/quote]
So she can text or skype from her computer. What about text messages? [/quote]

No, I removed Skype as well as other software also microphones from that computer long ago and scanned through her phone for surreptitious messages. She is not that technically adept and I had to set up everything for her. All the phones are logged so I'm still puzzled how she made that call, maybe at her work?
I was the dumbest guy on earth for trusting her and even allowing her to have a secret password after that first crisis.
Luckily I left the unintended backdoor on the phone which came in handy now, so I'm hesitant to jump on exposing especially when the evidence is a bit flimsy and I can potentially compromise getting better evidence if I catch them emailing still.

Hopefully you know now that even needing a "secret password" should be a huge red flag, right? People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.


Yes, you do have evidence. Even without the telling emails, you have evidence of her continued contact with her affair partner from 17 years ago. Continued contact *IS* evidence of a resumed affair. That would be like an alcohlic starting to drink again but calling his drinks "business drinks." This relationship has already passed the threshhold of romantic love and it can't go back from there. She can say we are "platonic" now, but that is a ridiculous notion.

This affair has now gone on for 17 years. Eventually she will leave you for the OM if you don't lift a finger and start doing something to save your marriage. Keeping it a secret for her only serves to enable the affair. That helps the OM in his mission to destroy your marriage, but it does not help you.

Her relationship is an affair. You already know this and have known it for 17 years. Just the fact that she is in touch with this guy is proof positive that the affair is active. You don't even need the incriminating emails.

Sir, the reason you are here dealing wiht the same affair 17 years later is because of your complacent, enabling approach. I say this with kindness, but if you had taken a more pro-active approach in the past, this man would not be still be trifling with your marriage 17 years later. He knows you won't do anything to protect your marriage because of your past complacence.

If you do care about your marriage - and that has not been demonstrated by your complacency - you will put an end to this. Complacence shows a lack of caring that your wife won't forget.

Yes, you are correct, I was definitely complacent. I had gone through what I thought was effective Exposure 17 years ago with my family, my in-laws, and several mutual friends, as well as the OM. She and the OM had both promised it would stop. I should have known to keep vigilance but was too comfortable in my trust in her.
I want to give the time that I promised my MIL to do her counseling before I unleash what I gathered... Because I do believe she will be my greatest ally in this fight. Or do you think my trust is misplaced?

I think your biggest problem is conflict avoidance and relying on your MIL to solve the problem - for you - is another facet of that approach. She can be your ally, but gaining her as an ally will not save your marriage. You need to expose the affair.

You are wrongly placing all of your hope in your MIL to solve the problem and that will not happen. The problem will only be solved when you take action and expose the affair. Exposure is the most effective, impactful weapon against an affair. It is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I am unclear on why you would not want to apply the most effective tool you have at your disposal?

What is your greatest fear about exposure?

I'm like every other guy I've read on the forum, scared of total loss (as wife is wavering on relationship since initial tough stance and stayed in the house). MIL wants to have a night this weekend with wife to go through everything and convince her to stay in the marriage.

But in the end you are probably correct, unless I do a more thorough exposure of the two of them (larger set of friends) it won't have the permanence that I need and could pop up again 17 years from now. After the OM marries and divorces his third wife!

Rest assured I am compiling the list of people to send to as well as the letters to address them. I am stumped on the OM's friends and family contact though. I only know his name and search on the web turned up nothing. On Facebook his friends list is private and I cannot see any friends (my wife was smart enough not to friend him). Any idea how I can get around that? I only know one girlfriend of my wife's that knows him, but it doesn't appear she's been in contact with him for years either. She was also very defensive of my wife 17 years ago and placed the blame on me, so I don't think she will provide me his contact this time.

I'm going to install SMS Tracker tonight to make sure I capture any text messages. So far she doesn't have a clue about how I figured out she still talked to the OM, I don't want to tip her off and put a password block on the phone.

With all due respect, that is ridiculous to imagine that your MIL can reason with a fogged out wayward. Waywards do not respond to reason. If you have read this forum, that "fear" was completely ill founded because it was exposure that saved their marriages. Every saved marriage on this forum attributes it to exposure.

But just exposing to one person and hoping they can do what YOU should be doing yourself is unrealistic and won't save your marriage.

And lets say she convinces your wife to stay in the marriage? So what? That does not run off the OM. It does not kill the affair. He will still be hanging around because he knows you are complacent. Your MIL's "counseling" does nothing to motivate her to end her affair and work on the marriage. That motivation comes from exposure.

And how many marriages has your MIL saved? As many as Dr Bill Harley, author of Surviving an Affair? Whose expertise should you rely upon?





I have been here for 14 years and I can assure you that if you don't expose this affair and take some action, she will eventually leave you for him.


Can you see any of the posts on OM's page?


Good idea!

However, I will just warn you that we can't help you if you won't expose the affair. So even if your MIL convinces her to stay, nothing we tell you will be off effect because your marriage will not survive.

]
I would also suggest that you do a thorough background check on this guy to find out if he is married and has any criminal history. You need to know everything about him, including the names and contact information for his parents and family members. That way you can expose to them.

My difficulty is this guy is on a different continent on the other side of the earth... So it's going to be tough getting this detailed information, especially past the language barrier when I don't know his name there...
However, I have made progress by finding his recommendations on LinkedIn had some people we mutually know. I am proceeding to friend as many of them as possible for the blitz. Hope they will accept my InMail.

Melody, I thought what you wrote over thoroughly and I confronted my wife one last time tonight about the affair and her intent. I did not get a committed response from her, just a vague and silent acknowledgement of the online affair and that she'll "give me a response next week."

So I followed your advice and started the blitz while she is sleeping, and sent the recommended letters and my evidence to 12 of the OM's friends on Facebook that I could figure out, and also to 8 of my wife's closest friends. I also emailed it to my MIL and apologized for not being able to keep to her timetable. Finally I emailed OM and warned him never to contact my wife again.

I already got a response from on of the OM's friends on Facebook who wished me luck to save my marriage! She claimed she didn't know OM well, but I asked her to just let OM know that she received the letter and she said she will try.

I hope you are right and I'm prepared to be strong and face the music tomorrow! The toughest part will be telling my son in the morning, he will be a heartbroken 11 year old. I am tearing up thinking about it as I write this. Pray for me.

I know it's tough time telIing the kids, I told my 10 year old step daughter the other two 3 and 14 months are to young to understand.

As much as my WW hates me for it, I am glad I did and it's keeped the confusion out of her life on what her mom's doing and has become a allie in wanting the marrage saved. It's become a huge hurdle for the WW to rewrite history.

Take the step with courage!!!

Thanks for the advice, Ron.
I assume I should tell my son without my wife present, right, to avoid distortion and fights?

Correct.

Lost, this is a good start and I applaud your taking action! This gives you the best chance at saving your marriage. But I would not stop there. It is very possible the OM is married. I would - TODAY - track down his home phone # and call his house to see if a wife answers. You need to stay on it until you have confirmed he is not married. He may be married and contacting his wife and/or parents would be a critical exposure.

Do you know where he works? If so, I would send the exposure emails to his employer because it is likely he is emailing and calling her from work. You need to open up holy hell on this piece of crap.

After your exposures come out today, i would sit your wife down and let her know that this affair must end once and for all. Tell her this will lead to divorce if she doesn't end all contact forever. <----yes, I want you to say this.

What did you say in your exposure letters? Did you use the templates in my thread?

Yes, I used the exact template from your post. The OM just called from a blocked number and left me a message that he wanted to talk "man-to-man" but left no numbers. In my letter I asked his friends to have his parents contact me.
Should I say anything other than to stop contacting me family?

He owns his company with his parents so the company route is not going to work, unless I track his parents down.

That is a great opportunity. You can call the company and ask to speak to his father. I would also go to his company website and start sending emails to anyone you can. See if you can find an HR department.

I would also send some evidence to these people when you do. Cull through and pick out some revealing emails.

Yes, I sent a copy of some of the most revealing emails between them in my emails to both his and her friends.
I suspect he's going to say it's platonic just like he said 16 years ago, same BS.

You are doing great, Lost. Tell your son (I will be praying for all of you), and keep working through all these other exposure targets. The OM's wife and parents are going to be indispensably crucial.

Don't worry about what the OM or anyone else says about it. Getting it exposed will have an effect regardless. The fact that YOU said he is having an affair with your wife will carry a lot of weight with a number of these people, regardless of what he says. But that is why you want to reach them first, before he has a chance to spin it, so act quickly.

Thanks for your support, markos.
Yes, I've reached 12 of his friends that I can make out on Facebook already. I think it's already had a sufficient impact for him to call me at 5 AM. Any suggestions what I should say to him when he calls back? Just be curt and tell him never to call again and hang up? Or try to shame him?
I'm pretty sure based on the last email exchange my wife had with OM that he is single again (second divorce). However, you can't tell with this weasel.

If this relationship is all platonic and no big deal, then both parties should have no problem sacrificing it for the health of your marriage which IS a big deal. Anyone rational should be able to accept this logic. Any other response indicates a belief that your marriage is not more important. You will quickly discern friends of your marriage and enemies of it.

Waywards do not make good parents. I am sure your son has sensed for some time that something is very wrong with his mother and maybe even blamed it on himself as kids tend to do. I wouldn't be surprised if in some way having an understandable explanation for what's been going on is a relief to him.

Tell him you love your wife and want to stay married to her and will do whatever it takes to keep her. She has likely lied to him and told him your marriage has been over for years or whatever. Tell him to GET AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE OR ELSE. Tell him that if your marriage ends up in court you will haul him into court to testify.

Track down his ex-wives and expose to them, too.

The OM called and started calling me a "f*ing idiot" and said I was threatening him. I tried to get him to give me his number but he refused (Anonymous caller ID blocked from overseas). After a couple minutes of abuse I just hung up on him. He called back a couple times and said I was threatening him and if anything happened to my wife he will find me.
Just proves that he's an idiot and womanizer.

On the brighter side, I've talked to three of WW's friends. They were all supportive of me and promise to talk to WW on my behalf to pull her back from the brink. One of them experienced the exact same thing as WW is going through now, got a divorce, and has regretted it ever since. WW talks to me about this case frequently before, but now when I bring it up about how a divorce destroys a childhood, she chooses to ignore it due to the fog. Hopefully our friend can knock some sense into her!

says you're threatening him, huh? lol, just tell him you'll see him in court.

Don't try to tell your wife how bad divorce is - let other people do that. You're just her companion to talk to about her problems in life, but not the guy to give her unsolicited advice.

Very good point, you are right, I didn't think of that! I'm glad her friend volunteered to be my ally on the divorce front.

It sounds more like he is threatening you.

Get a free cell phone recorder App and record all of your calls and next time, get him to admit to something.

The Android version I installed from the Google Play Store is: Call Recorder.

You have to tweak one setting to record the incoming persons voice, but the instructions are written in the sites reviews section and does work.

LTL

Naturally, he would lie to your wife about his marital status in order to get her to leave youl. This man is a liar and a weasel, so you cannot assume he is telling the truth.

You MUST do something to see if he is married. CAll his house!! Disguise your # like he is, using *67 and call and see who answers the phone.

The responses from our friends that have called have generally positive on my side. The one that I suspect was going to side with her questioned why I still wanted to stay in the marriage, after all this is the second time with the same OM. I told her, it's because I love my wife and we want to stay a family!
Only one friend was able to make contact with my wife this morning, when she was unsuspecting. The friend reported back that she was very upset at my sending the letter to her friends. I will be weathering the storm tonight... It'll be hard to stick to Plan A.

Good job!! Don't fight and don't let her bait you into a fight. Just tell her that she must end her affair immediately if this marriage will last.

Did you expose to the OM's parents yet? Any more progress on finding out if he has a wife?

No, no luck with OM, cannot get his number, my wife won't give it to me at this point.
Came home, my wife asked my son what I told him. My son started telling and was a torrent of tears! Breaks my heart to see him. My wife blames me for inflicting this pain on an 11 year old. I asked my son is it better to know the truth, he nodded.
My wife is very upset at the Exposure. I don't think everyone has reached her yet, but she is plenty upset already. She told me I have "sealed the deal" by embarrassing her in front of her friends. I told her the purpose is not to embarrass her, but to get us moving forward by getting past the affair and ending it. I asked her to cut off OM but she ignored me. She threatened to "make changes" now.
I feel terrible... What should I do?

Good job!! It sounds like your exposure definitely had an impact. I am hopeful that friends and family will call her and try to persuade her to end it. What about her mother? Will she call?

So sorry to read about your dear son, but you did the right thing in tellng him the truth. He has a right to know that his mother is willing to destroy his family over a big fat nothing.

]

Get the # and do not give up until you do. Don't ask your wife, but use directory assistance, google, etc.

Are you still monitoring her phone? Can you look at old phone bills?

The only # that would likely show up on the phone bill is the OM's cell phone. He needs his business and home #s.

The OM smartened up after 17 years, every call comes in as Anonymous so nothing is traceable. But there's been no activity from him to WW on the phones or email for a couple weeks now, except that call at 5AM today.

Reading the emails it seems like OM times his calls to WW at work. However, she has changed jobs since and it is not a private area to receive calls any more. So now it must be cell phone, but I don't see any activity on that.

By the way, I installed SMS Tracker but it doesn't work. It asks for user name and password but I don't know where to get those? The website doesn't generate them and neither does the app...?

Did you get his buisness # and home # yet? That is what you need.

MIL talked to WW about the email evidence I gave her. WW was of course furious, saying how can I embarrass her like that, "What mother would want to see embarrassing things from her child?" I didn't argue with her but I said the purpose was not to embarrass her but to get things out in the open.
I do think MIL appreciates the affair now but whether it will influence WW remains to be seen. I'm wondering if I should have waited on MIL first before going nuclear... I'm afraid to talk to MIL now as she is going to be mad at me for not holding to my promise to let her talk to WW first.

You had no reason to wait. There is no such thing as a perfect time, so you did the right thing. It is good enough that the MiL spoke to her.


Just let her know that you rethought this strategy and felt it wasn't a good idea. And truly it was not.

Really, when would the MIL ever had agreed that a right time Ever would have presented itself?

The ONLY thing that could have occurred by waiting until after she spoke with your Wayward Wife, would have been that Her Daughter would have pleaded with her stating how much any exposure would have dragged her dirty laundry out in public where everyone could chastise her and talk about her behind her back.

MIL, when would be the Perfect time to expose your Daughters affair?

How many more days or weeks shall we wait to let this marriage breaking affair sink it's deadly teeth further into her and your Marriage?

She could not possibly give you any good answers to these, so be kind to her and continue to be an even more loving Son-In-Law to her, continually showing by actions that now that the exposure deed is done, the real loving work has at least a chance to rebuild and recover your Marriage.

Remember, unless you missed any targets with your exposure, you can also be pleasant to your Wayward Wife about that topic if or when she brings it up again.

Now, you can put her mind at ease and concentrate totally on your Plan A.

LTL

Plan is working... MIL and her cousin are planning an intervention tonight with WW to snap her out of her fantasy.
Found out OM is single today through her cousin. Second wife left him for another man.

How would the cousin KNOW this? Does she know the wife and the OM PERSONALLY?

Did you call his business and home yet?

Still unable to get OM's business # or home #, but I think the exposure did its job.
I was finally able to figure out how to install SMS Tracker (hidden) on WW's cell. Went through the history and it looks like there's been no contact with OM since my initial discovery and confrontation (after all, the OM is a continent away). The emotional emails look like a recent development within the past month, before that the emails were fairly innocuous.
The MIL and cousin intervention was a mixed bag. They insisted that she not contact OM again. WW felt she was set up as she didn't realize her cousin was going to be there. She told them what a terrible, neglecting husband I have been and it's all my fault, etc. They sympathized with her and blasted me for following the Exposure 101 tactics, especially to my 11 year old son. I tried to defend myself by saying that the truth has to come out anyway.
WW is very upset throughout this. She said the Exposure showed what a bad person I was. Now she cannot talk to any of her friends, she feel cut off from them. I told her I didn't say anything untrue and I just used her own emails to show both her friends and my son. She said even if we split up, she will always be our son's mother, why would I want to make her a bad person? I said I just told him the facts, and those are your own words in the email. She said you don't show that to an 11 year old!
She did however come back home but is still sleeping in the guest room. Since then I've been working on Plan A and been on my best behavior. She made a comment that I have not done many of things, like offering her a chair or opening doors for her, in years. Why didn't I do that before? I said, yes I am learning a very hard lesson in being a caring husband through this. She told me she won't contact OM any more, but she can't promise that will be the case ten years from now, because she doesn't want me to have it against her like this time.
I gave her some of the material from MB and also I asked her to do the questionnaire on emotional needs. She read through some of the stuff but was not enthusiastic about this. She refused to go to a marriage counselor (the one we had sixteen years ago wasn't all that great either). I bought the SAA book and I suggested we tried to work it out ourselves, but she is rather noncommittal.
What should I do next? This ordeal is frustrating beyond belief. The first time sixteen years ago was easier to deal with, without a son and only six months under my belt. Now that I'm so invested into the marriage (literally) it is so much harder. It's only been a few days since the Exposure so I'm not sure if I'm rushing things and expecting too much too soon. But of course I just want things to get back to what they were a few months ago before all this...

Hi lost, it sounds like things are going great, however, skipping the OM exposure is a huge mistake. I know you can get his business # and expose to his parents. Just call information. What about his wife? One of the keys is causing him as much trouble as possible so he will stay away. If you can successfully kill this affair, she will withdraw from the OM and draw to you.

In the meantime, you should do your best to meet her needs. I would put aside the EN questionnaire for now and focus on the top 4 needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and rec companionship. I am relieved to hear she won't go to a marriage counselor since they are so destructive to marriage.

"But of course I just want things to get back to what they were a few months ago before all this..."

We are hopeful that you never get that marriage back again because it was that marriage that led to an affair. You will have to create something immensely better to overcome this.

And hang in there! Don't get discouraged. The madder she is, the harder you hit the affair so that is a good thing. Your answers about exposure were spectacular, btw!!

Do you think I should ease off on pushing the recovery/MB programs for now? What WW said about talking to OM in 10 years is really bugging me. I have yet to get a full disclosure from her as to the nature of their A, if it was ever got to PA. She has consistently denied it before I confronted her with the emails. She keeps brushing off as the guy is not even on this continent... I don't want to push too hard and push her away, but I do believe one of the key points in the SAA book is to get everything out then we can move on.
I had a bouquet of flowers delivered to her at work today but she didn't text or call me. Normally she'd be ecstatic with something like this... I guess I need to learn to be patient and work through it. At least last night she let me massage her feet, something she really enjoyed before!
I brought up going to the gym to exercise with her as part of the effort to have recreation. She did not want that at all, as her gym classes are all women and she said I'd embarrass her. We do have a lot of fun going to our son's sporting events but I'm not sure it counts as our time together.

I would show her the affair checklist and tell her this is what it will take to save your marriage. Just let her know that otherwise this will lead to divorce. Tell her that you cannot endure ANY contact with the OM and ask her to send that piece of CRAP a no contact letter. Be FIRM and serious about the affair while trying to be as pleasant as ossible

I am very concerned about why you are ignoring my suggestions to expose to the OM's business and to verify his marital status. That is a critical exposure that can't be skipped. You can't afford to miss a single exposure when dealing with a long term affair.

Go give her this:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

I gave the checklist and also the letter template to WW and asked her to look at them. It seems like we're hitting a cold spell. Yesterday she was not friendly and complained about the flowers being a pain to carry from her work to home due to the large box (!) She also said my foot massage made her feet hurt even more yesterday. Ugh! I grinned and bore it and smiled and just said I'm trying to make her feel better with the flowers and massage.

I have been digging into OM. Unfortunately there is a rather large language barrier and the fact that I don't know his name in the local language makes it very hard to find anything on him. Even to call directory assistance! They are half a day ahead of us and that also makes it difficult. Plus I don't have any mutual acquaintances except my WW and her friend who never got along with me that well before, and was rather hostile about the Exposure. So she has not been helpful after the initial phone call I had with her with the Exposure, and I don't think she will be my ally in this quest. She also has not spoken to this guy in more than 20 years and is not volunteering to contact him.

I did locate his company fax number and have faxed the letter I sent to his friends to it. I think that was what set him off and called to blast me.

I sent the same letter to 12 of his friends on Facebook (at least the 12 people that have most recently commented on his "Global" posts). However, for some reason Facebook never gave me the $1 pay option. I was successful in getting through to some of them, they actually "friended" me as a result. But I'm not sure if the other messages got delivered as FB said we are "not connected" so I think it goes into the Message Requests purgatory. Any ideas how to push them through?

It seems like you have a reasonable amount of info on him to get started. A language and cultural barrier is significant, but you have resources you can use.

Find out about the area where he lives, check the CIA factbook on the country. See what language they speak, if they are a former colony of a European nation, etc. Then find a friend who can help with translation. Missionaries to this area or areas like this, volunteer translators of the language, anyone who know who is bilingual with this language and English for whatever reason. Even if we're talking about the 3rd world, a friend who can speak French (for example) might be able to help a lot because of how many former colonies it is still a business/government language in. You may also be able to obtain his cell # subscriber info from a website for a fee. Much of that info is published by cell carriers and available if you know where to look (sites like Spokeo, Intelius, etc).

A cell phone #, picture and alias is a great start but you have to absolutely scour the web and use every resource available.

When I started tracking down OM in my situation, my wife was already gone and I had only a first name of a man I'd never met, and a cell #. Within a few days (and with some helpful tips from members here) I found his full name/age/address, pictures of him, his business, and most of his immediate family to use for exposure. You can do this!

OM blocked his cell # and it comes into my cell as Anonymous-International. When he first called I pretended I couldn't hear him, asked him for his number. He wouldn't give it to me, as he is a cowardly POSOM.

I cannot for the life of me think why you only got the fax number instead of the phone number, calling the firm up and asking for his father. That would be the least acceptable effort.

Given he's been in your marriage for 17 years, a PI or background check (use a professional in his home country or one who knows how to do international checks) is a reasonable precaution! This guy is very likely married.

This guy thinks he can block his number and that will be enough to be evade you because he thinks you are complacent. A fax would be an easy thing to explain or evade. You simply cannot afford to look this complacent to your wife or to the OM.

Made more progress on the OM exposure, I had to do this in the wee hours of our night. I called his company number but was unable to get much information. I asked about the father and was told he is not active there. I then did some searches and remembered WW told me about their industry from long ago. Sure enough I found his father's business number related to that industry. I called that number and asked to speak to him but was told he is out of the country until January.
Question is, should I wait for his father to return or should I just expose to whomever will listen to me? I'm wondering if doing it to the receptionist will have any effect.

I gave her this template as well as the checklist and talked to her about sending it, but she is resistant. WW is still bitter and angry about the Exposure (it's been a week). She has only talked to two of the eight I exposed to, she said she hasn't talked to a lot of them in many years. The others have tried to contact her and she has not called them back. The Intervention by the MIL and cousin definitely had the desired effect. She no longer denies the A and she admitted she was wrong. She said it an emotional affair, they had never met since we had married seventeen years ago, it was just phone calls and emails spaced many months apart, and only intensified in the last couple months as she got frustrated with me.
She said the Exposure has left her no friends, and many days she wake up feeling she can't go on any more. I reassured her we are here for her, the purpose was not to shame her, but to bring things to light. She said reading the template made her feel horrible, and she said it's just words, she and OM will not contact each other, why do it? I told her it is important for closure, words are important, because it will deliver a finality to it.
This morning I asked her if she can think it through again and send the email. She said, fine, why don't you just go ahead and send it? I told her no, we need to send it together.
Obviously this is causing a lot of LB withdrawals but I am very insistent on it.
Question: Should I ask her to send it as an email, or send it as a handwritten letter as I read somewhere? If she sends it electronically, should I be cc:'ed on it for OM to see?

Are you in a position where you can hire a PI to get his full background? It might not cost as much as you think. In the US it can be done for under $500.

I'll have to check, but based on my knowledge of that country, it is very expensive over there, and the laws are much more restrictive on that sort of things than here.

In the meantime, can you answer my question regarding the Final Letter to the OM? As part of Plan A, do I need to seek "Enthusiastic Agreement" from WW in order to send it?

ok, but you can try and hire a PI here, can't you?


Most waywards will not be "enthusiastic" about sending the letter and that is ok. You aren't in recovery and you certainly are not trained in using the POJA so I am not sure why this would be an issue. You can't force her to send the letter, but you can ask.

Yes, I could hire a PI here. But what good will he do? They won't speak the language, the OM and father permanently reside overseas, as well as his ex-wives and kids. They'll probably run a few Google searches like I have and pocket my retainer.
I have hired American PI's several times in the past for various business legal cases. I have yet to find a scrupulous PI. Sorry, I don't think it will help at all in this case.

Ok, makes sense, I will continue to ask and see that the letter is sent.

Why not try and find one that does speak the language? I am surprised you say that about PIs because I have worked for 2 Fortune 500 companies and we used PIs with very good outcomes. There has to be some way you can verify the OM's marital status and expose to his family. Can you think of another way?

Goodness me when I posted to you earlier I found dozens of international and multilingual PIs by using a simple Google search. When I was a journalist I frequently investigated non English speakers with nothing more than a phone, Google translate, the occasional PI and persistence.

If I am more motivated than you are, what message are you sending the APs?

What methods did you use to try and get a current contact number for him off her?

One method that's always worked for me is implying youre doing the favour and they will have a problem unless they get back to you.

Say you have urgent information regarding a legal issue with one of his employees and you are making a courtesy call to discuss it with him before instructing your lawyer. But you need to hear from him in the next two days.

Tell the receptionist it's now her responsibility to warn him of an upcoming legal repercussion, which will likely cause a scandal, as you've done your best. he'll call you then.

Still unable to get a hold of father or other relatives of OM. The receptionist will not spill any beans other than he's out of the country currently. Will keep trying new tactics.

Regarding my question about messages to OM's Facebook friends: I got through to some of them but I think for some of them my message is stuck in the Message Queue. When I was sending the messages, I never got a prompt to pay $1 to send the message. Is that advice still current, or is there another way to ensure the messages get sent?

Did you use a PC?

Yes, of course.
I spaced out each message at least one minute too.
The $1 prompt never came up, not even once.

If I remember correctly another poster didn't have to pay the $1 either and it is some new policy that Facebook changed. I will try and find the post. So I think your messages went through.

I think they have done away with the $1 requirement. Now the person is sent an email to accept or reject your message.

Hopefully the FB messages got to their intended contacts.
WW is still sleeping in the guest bedroom and refuses to come back to our master bedroom. She said she may never get over my Exposure, I have embarrassed and shamed her. Since the Exposure, she ignores all her friends except for a couple that she confided to, even though the friends I exposed the A to have all reached out to her. She felt the Exposure was very "evil," especially to our son and she "may never forgive" me for it. I just repeated to her that everything I sent was factual and the attachments were her own emails and words... She gets even more mad about it.
Her cousin said my MIL and her made it very clear to WW that she was wrong to contact OM and she can never do it again. The cousin said she has never heard my MIL yell at WW in that manner, MIL is very upset about her contacting OM. So she's confident that WW will follow my MIL's orders and not contact OM.
I showed a draft of the Final Letter to OM to her, and she told me to go ahead to send it to the OM by email, which I finally did (as she refused to push the "send" button). I've put trackers on our PC's and her cell phone. I monitor them daily as well as our landline (it tracks all calls as well). GPS shows no suspicious movements since too. There has been no contact with OM since my confrontation with her a month ago.
I've read the SAA book cover-to-cover and gave it to her, suggesting that she will find it very useful and applicable to our situation. She has not read the book, nor fill out the Needs Questionnaire that I asked her to.
She also would not go on any UA dates. She behaves normally around our son, but every evening she said she is tired and goes to bed early. I was able to convince her to agree to attend my company Xmas party tomorrow night after initially refusing to do so (I told her it's important for her to be there for my job's sake, which it is).
I had a discussion with WW a couple days ago about moving forward but it devolved into an argument as she got upset about the Exposure again. She said I was "lucky" she's staying in the house, it's all for our son. She cried about it and I comforted her the next day but we are still in the same holding pattern...

My question is: How do I progress this marriage forward to Recovery? Her cousin feels that it is too soon and counterproductive to push her (Exposure was two weeks ago). She also felt that my Exposure tactics were vindictive and ungentlemanlike. I gave her the SAA material but she said it doesn't apply to our case. Anyway I wasn't going to argue with her cousin as she is an ally in my fight.

And let's keep in mind that the cousin has no experience in saving marriages, and that's ok. Just keep her out of the way as much as possible since she is ignorant.

What you should do is continue to be kind to your wife and ask her out on dates. Do things with your child and invite her to come. She will thaw out. When the opportunity comes up, let her know how very hurt you were by her affair and how your marriage cannot survive with a 3rd person in it.

Be sure and leave the book, Surviving an Affair, lying around. Your wife may pick it up. Another good one is Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook. She might find that more interesting. It is a fairly cheap workbook that you need any way.

Yes, I've actually already ordered the workbook, should be getting it soon. I have the Questionnaire lying around but it's still sitting there...
I have been kind and we are doing things together with my son. This glacial pace of thawing is driving me nuts though! Will keep being patient and kind... :-)

Then you are doing a great job!! Just keep being patient and she will come around. You should also try and sell her on your "vision" of a new marriage. For example, I would tell her that this program will create a romantic, passionate marriage. Ask her if she wants to join you. Tell her you don't want the old marriage back, but that you want a marriage where you are both happy.

At first she will tell you to go to hell but you should plant the seed and look for selling opportunities. Do you listen to the MB radio show? That will help you immensely in understanding how this program works. You can download the app on your phone [free] and listen for free. It is an amazing show. It will really help you understand.

And you can have the MB radio show playing while you're cooking dinner or cleaning up after dinner to where your WW will hear it.

A good opportunity for her to hear what it is all about.

What do you have planned for your next date?

Also, do you text her at night? Saying "good night beautiful" or something similar?

Clever idea.

Awesome!

It doesn't sound like you missed any targets because her reaction is just right. Nice amount of shame activated. Good stuff.

Shame really only as lasts as long as the shameful behaviour lasts.




You are of course dead right, but I wouldn't use this approach with her it's too lectury, too 'I am right and you are wrong'.

While she is hurting from her well earned shame and feeling a bit worthless, it's a golden opportunity to make LB deposits. Try affection with something like "I am so sorry you are feeling bad. Do you want to watch a nice movie together and I can make us some hot chocolate? (smile sympathetically when she storms off) Or "I just can't live without you. It's that simple. I think you are totally amazing. " or "They are being nice to you aren't they? I specifically asked for support for you!"

Since your MiL sounds AMAZING, you could even ring her up while your wife is in earshot and say "look Joan, I appreciate you love her and are SO afraid of this guy taking advantage of your daughter; me too. But since she's here working on the marriage, could you take her out to lunch or something? I would consider it a personal favour." You can arrange a bit of byplay with her beforehand. You could even book a nice table for the two of them and have a bottle of wine sent to their table.



A WW just yanked out of her affair mindset is not going to do any of those things! You are still in Plan A so I would table any recovery stuff; offer it, leave the book lying around, but mostly she should witness your patience, cheerfulness and general fabulousness. You've killed the A and have her under the same roof. You can make lovebank deposits in a thousand tiny ways, in the thousand daily intimacies of shared living.

GOOD job stressing the Christmas party's importance. She won't be able to refuse your compliments when she's all dressed up. She will pretend to, but she is a woman.

There are many things like this where she can't bail on you. She must keep up appearances, she needs you as provider, she needs you as a dad. All lovebank deposits are unconscious. When you do something as a family, she will get FC deposits. It's nowhere near as good as UA time, but it will wiggle her into a place where she will eventually want UA deposits.

It's appetisers before dinner, almost. Teeny lovebank deposits, which will appear to have no effect. But they will; she will try, but will ultimately have no choice to reject them.

Good point on the "vision," I will try to sell her on that. I have listened to the audio show on my computer (she was wondering what I was doing but then went away as soon as she realized what it was about). She's still stuck in the mindset that our situation is "unique" to us and no one else. I think her exceptionalism is what's making her resist opening her mind to Dr. Harley's books and materials.
Thanks for everyone's support and ideas, they are very helpful for me to deal with this emotional situation.

Yes, although she complained about the party she is getting her hair done today for it :-) I'm sure she is looking forward to it. Our lives were completely intertwined before anyway, we spend most of our free time with our son at his various sports activities. That's why I was so shocked at this EA since there was very little opportunity for WW to be away from the family. (Forgot completely about the possibility of EA over internet).
I'll be thinking about the ways to be affectionate and loving. Even though she complained about the flowers she took some time to rearrange them. When she said she didn't have anything to wear for the party, I told her go ahead and buy another outfit, you'll be the most radiant woman in the room anyway (which is the actual truth).
What would constitute the end of "Plan A?" When WW agrees to a recovery and start working on making deposits to the LB?

Just so you know, this does not shock us. The reason you grew apart is because you were spending so much time with your son and not alone with each other. This is the KEY to maintaining a loving, integrated marriage. If you don't spend 15-20 hours per week meeting each others intimate emotional needs, you will grow apart. This is why it is so important to get out on 4-4 hour dates a week. WITHOUT YOUR CHILD.

Yes, I see that clearly now. Before this recent drama, we went on a few "dates" as a couple when our son was at events that excluded parents. We did some couples massages and went to restaurants and cafes, just like we did before we had our son. It felt a little weird and awkward at the time. Although we did get intimate afterwards it felt rushed since we needed to pick up our son at a certain time.

With our son, she would sometimes wistfully tell him what our married life was like before we had him. We were able to "just go out" to cafes, movies, and restaurants, without worrying about any schedules or planning. However, she never made attempts to do impromptu dates and frequently would reject my suggestions because of our son's tight schedule. Our friends say we really take the phrase "doting parents" to the extreme. They were so shocked when I exposed the affair to them.

She's resisting these suggestions right now but hopefully she'll be open to them once we transition out of Plan A. She scornfully said that my being nice is "temporary" and "fake" but hopefully I can convince her otherwise. Will have to slowly work these things into her schedule. Now that our son is a very mature 11, he can be on his own without any real worries.

So your son has sleepovers, correct? What a perfect opportunity to have date night?

Also do you have a babysitter or parents you can swap babysitting
With?

What do you have planned for your next date?

No, we don't do sleepovers... Too many issues and complications in this day and age (child molesters, etc.)! Very few of his friends from school do it, unfortunately.

Only reliable babysitter is my MIL, but she lives pretty far from us as well. :-( Will have to find neighborhood kids to do it, or leave son alone for it.

Next date: Will have to work on after this date (to the Xmas party). WW was resistant but hopefully will defrost soon.

Was the Christmas party last night? How did it go?

It went well, my coworkers were all praising how great and young she looked (they accused me of cradle-robbing after learning that we've been married 17 years, LOL). She did look great with her new hairdo and I complimented her on it. I think we had a good time overall. She was a lot more reserved than her usual self but made small talk, and was obviously flattered by their comments.
She wouldn't dance but it was fine with me. We had a chance to sit and cuddle after our son went to bed, and she was OK with it, but went back to the guest room afterwards :-(. She said she needs "time to think" and for me not to rush her.
Just received the "His Needs, Her Needs" book in the mail along with the workbook. Will need help to get her to read it, she said she was "too busy" to read the SAA book (I put on her phone already). I was watching some of Dr. Harley's videos and I think that may be a better way to start?
We'll be at my son's games tomorrow morning, I am trying to figure out how to turn it into an UA session. Even though it's out in public we will be under our canopy for 4-5 hours and can talk pretty much without interruption.

16th r 73rd is an audio version of SAA

Do NOT have her read, His Needs, Her Needs.

That gives the Wayward Too Many Excuses for why they did what the did.

The ONLY book is Surviving An Affair and the workbook discussed.

Here is what IndieGirl just posted on the thread just below yours, with an original quote from Apples.

LTL

QUOTE:

Originally Posted By: apples123
Also, in reviewing your thread, I noticed you were read His Needs Her Needs.this is the wrong book for a marriage dealing with an affair. The book you need is Surviving An Affair. (I'm concerned your counselor gave you a book dealing with the wrong issues. What kind of counselor does that.)


I would listen to apples. It is a disastrous display of ignorance on the part of the counsellor. They don't have any idea about the material they use. Dr H has said many, many times that this book should never be used in the aftermath of an affair. It encourages very poor responsiveness from the wayward spouse.

When a WS is vacillating between the OP and the BS they desire both sides to up the competiton and 'win' over their enthusiasm. If you use HNHN in a non affair situation you will be meeting needs safely in an environment where your spouse protects you from others and is 100 pc comitted and not 'unsure'.

In an affair situation, you will forever be trapped in a never ending competiton; a set up which the WS will protect and encourage you to participate in without any reward. And lie about.

That's why in SAA Dr Harley encourages you to snoop out a hidden affair and expose a known, confessed or proven affair whether it is concluded or not. Because it never is concluded properly without exposure. His entire affair recovery method focuses on ensuring the A is not only dead but can never be resumed. Trying to compete with it is impossible because it is not a normal relationship but an addiction.


Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure



Not 'oh if he's told you and given you passwords it will all be fine'.

He would take your safety much more seriously than you do.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful




Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

There are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt



Even better if it also encourages the spouse to compete as in your case! Your husband has a wayward's dream set up currently. Both sides competing and confession relieving some guilt, with no exposure used to increase the guilt.


Originally Posted By: Dr Harley


Then, if all of that weren't enough, the unfaithful spouse explains that he or she needs time to "sort out" feelings, whatever that means. It actually means that the unfaithful spouse will go to the highest bidder. Whoever makes the unfaithful spouse feel the best, the lover or the spouse, will win the prize of the unfaithful spouse. So he or she spends some time with the lover, and then spends some time with the spouse. Back and forth, trying to "get in touch" with feelings


This is what happens in 100 pc of cases on these boards. I have never seen a situation where a WS has been able to withdraw entirely and permanently from the addiction voluntarily without any extraordinary precautions or expousure. Nor have peope who have been here a lo longer than me. Even when the OP is abusive, it continues.

The most remorseful examples of WS on these boards all credit exposure as being the freeing experience which finally enabled them to break loose from the powerful addiction.

Really, you would expect him to be fired with enthusiasm just on the very off chance that you could possibly one day forgive him. Willing to jump through every hoop. Most people would be overwhelmed by that chance and would not expect that offer to remain on the table long.



Edited by indiegirl (12/19/15 09:25 AM)

Wow, good thing, I almost gave her the book. I will read it first myself then. I guess the He Wins/She Wins workbook is not appropriate for my WW either?
Are any of the videos on this site inappropriate for her to watch? I think it's going to be easier for me to start with the videos with her first.

Have you watched the video on infidelity?

I was going to defer the Infidelity video until I showed her "How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages" first to give her some background to understanding the methodology.
I think WW might be turned off by Infidelity video and resist watching it because she'll think it's judgmental.

True and here is a good show of Dr. Harley explaining the basic concepts and why he believes what he does.
Radio Show

Got WW to watch the first video introducing MB concepts. WW was attentive but made a snarky comment when I asked for her feedback, that they are just trying to sell their books. I said, yes, but they are trying to help people and the concepts will help us. She said she didn't want to or have time to read the books, but when I pressed, she said she will "consider" reading the books.
Otherwise, things are going better. We watched a movie together and she let me hold her hand and touch and massage her... Slowly but surely. Resisting setting up dates, said she didn't want to leave our son alone.
Any other suggestions for moving the ball forward?

Awesome Christmas plans - family is why she stayed. Get her to go shopping with you for son, so he can't come.

Don't forget surprises for her!

Actually, I have all the books and received every one of them for FREE just from calling or writing the radio show. They send you a free book if your email or call is on the radio show. They would give away everything for free if they could. Dr. Harley provides this free forum for people who can't afford the professional services and then he gives away free books on his free radio show.

Most of his videos can be watched for free on this website or on youtube. He gives aways all of his questionnaires for free. They are the most generous people I have ever known.

So tell her that she doesn't have to buy a single book unless she wants to. All she has to do is to send an email to the radio show and they will send her a free book.

Another thing you can do to move this forward is download the MB app [free] and listen to the radio show together.


What does she love to do? What about looking into a weekend trip - ALONE - going somewhere she would love?

Actually I bought the books already, she just won't read them. The cost of the books isn't the problem. I even put the SAA book on her phone and on a Kindle for easier reading. She just said she is "too busy" to read them. I asked her to do the Emotional Needs questionnaire again today and she wasn't very receptive. She keeps saying she needs "time to think" and I said this material will help us frame the problems and focus, because the stuff she says matches exactly what Dr. Harley said. Still resisting though...
I believe it's her way of "getting even" because of the Exposure which deeply shamed and embarrassed her. She is still very upset by it.
She loves shopping, but she hates it when I go with her (she feels constricted). She loves exercising at the gym but all her classes are all women, and she doesn't want me to go with her.

What about going out to eat? What about a weekend getaway? What did you both love doing when you were dating?

Two votes for a getaway!

Will push for the getaway, but will have to coordinate with my MIL on that. It's still a very tough sell, she is very resistant. She's still blaming me for everything so I'm trying to use the videos and books to break through her tough "shell."
We eat out frequently but she doesn't want to leave our son with a sitter. Before we had our son, we used to go to cafes and movies a lot. We still do that but now it's always with our son. Only thing we do semi-alone is watching our son's games (4-5 hours a week sitting in our canopy). But it got rained out yesterday :-(

You could back off on asking her to read the books. I tried that with my ex H, offered him the audiotapes to listen to in the car on his commute. Instead, he was talking to his "friend" every time he got in the car.

It's probably too soon to help her understand about rebuilding and about the nature of affairs.

Doing something fun and NOT talking about the relationship or the affair, but paying attention to her, can help you to start to win her back.

I agree with Bellevue in terms of backing off on the marital recovery talk and materials. Don't push that on her right now. She's not ready. Keep making love bank deposits. Do nice things for her, look your best and make home a warm and inviting place. Be clever in terms of figuring out how you can get alone time with her. If you can go on a weekend trip, it would help A LOT. Start figuring out how to get quality childcare for your son. Sounds to me like the over emphasis on parenting has greatly contributed to the distance between you and your wife. Start figuring out how to change these patterns. Limit direct relationship talk for now. Just be loving and warm and keep inviting her.

Bring some fun into the relationship. Make jokes, be lighthearted. Let her know that staying married can be FUN. You want to build up the love so that she's excited to do the marital recovery work with you. If you push it now, it might seem patronizing from her point of view, which is a big love buster.

Good point and quite different from the other advice I've received here.
What I've been reading on this forum about "narrow window of opportunity" to save my marriage plus my natural instinct is pushing me to act and try to move toward the goal constantly.
My WW has complained that our marriage is not a project. We are doing fun things together but mostly as a family. First would be trying to get the weekend trip scheduled. It's hard because she is not open to the idea now.
I did buy her nice diamond earrings for Christmas even though she told me not to buy anything. Hopefully they will soften her up. :-)

What in the hell? WE have consistently told you to focus on attracting her back by having FUN with her while SELLING her on the program. You should be introducing her to the program NOW as much as you can. You should not force it, but you should try and sell the positive aspects to her while making your marriage fabulous.

If you feel that any of us have given you incorrect advice, please click on "notify" and the moderators will remove our posts.

According to the rules of this forum, the advice given must comply with the advice that Dr. Harley gives.


You have completely taken my advice out of context. The "narrow window of opportunity" applies to exposure and affair busting.

I have spent an inordinate amount of my free time trying to help you along and I don't appreciate being dismissed. The advice being given here has to line up with Marriage Builders, or it is removed.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I confused the urgency between the Exposure versus selling her on the Program.
But Bellevue and zibbles's advice seems to tell me to back off on selling her on the Program. Or am I reading it incorrectly?
I'm Confused...

The reason you should start selling her now - NOT PUSHING, I NEVER ADVISED THAT - is because she needs to see some hope on the horizon. She needs to see a picture of HOPE in her marriage with you. Otherwise, her withdrawal from the OM will just default to depression. You need to give her the hope that your marriage can be a happy, passionate relationship.

I don't expect her to react positively to your overtures right now, but you will have planted a seed that she will remember as she withdraws. As she withdraws, she will draw more and more to you if there is an attractive option.

Yes, it is a tightrope walk between selling and pushing. I will have to find the right balance between the two.

She's going to see a big difference in you and when that happens she will start to associate these pleasant changes with the program you mentioned you are following. Clearly she isn't going to automatically love it, but you will be doing things she DOES love.

Now, one of the biggest changes will be how you accept no for an answer, instead of pushing something on her. Even when it's the MB program, it's still a selfish demand if she can't say no! Nor do you drop the subject, you assertively keep working your own plan, showing rather than telling.

That's what a salesman does, he lets the product speak for itself rather than push it.

You make it sound so hard. It's basically just wooing at the end of the day.

Just be a nice guy. Demonstrate a picture of your future marriage to her. Have fun with it.

Don't expect so much from her initially.

Yes, it is very hard for me to take rejection. Probably explains why I'm not in sales :-)
On another note: I found something very disturbing a couple days ago as I looked through our house to ensure all contact with OM has ceased. I found some photocopies of three goodbye/suicide letters WW wrote 18 years ago, two months before our wedding. She wrote a short note to me, saying that I'm a strong person and that I will find a wonderful woman to marry me, it was her fault, etc. She wrote a long note to her parents apologizing for her faults and that she couldn't see a way to get out of the mess she made. She wrote a long note to OM asking him to help comfort her parents, and hoping they could be together in the next life. (She had told me she dumped him because he has to live on the other continent and OM's family rejected her).
It's 18 years ago, so I don't remember all the details. But there was a lot of stress prior to the wedding due to disagreements between the families about the wedding, to the point that we were considering calling it off. Obviously she never carried through with the suicide 18 years ago and she has seemed normal through all this time. I am not sure how serious she was about it. But she has never told me this and it appears my WW has buried a lot of dark secrets.
My question is, should I bring this up at all? I don't think to WW at this point because she is so upset about the Exposure and things. But I don't know if I should ask MIL about it? WW was very upset I did the Exposure with MIL and her cousin. I think if I asked MIL she will keep this info in confidence but I'm not sure if she will slip.
Suggestions on how I should deal with this discovery? Or should I just leave it alone? She has not seemed depressed at all during our marriage but now it appears she's very good at hiding her emotions. It's disturbing to me that she would want to keep these letters from 18 years ago.

Plan A is very hard emotionally - but it isn't at all complicated. Do nice things. Stay calm and reasonable. Not easy but very simple as cliff notes go.



I think where suicide is concerned, even hinted at; as many people should be warned/exchange information as much as possible. I'd ask MiL or other supporters for as much information as they can recollect. Find out was there any reason to take this seriously. Then just watch her closely, using spyware too. Call in the cavalry if she says anything similar today.

She probably was fine when she was not in contact or in withdrawal from him. Now your exposure makes it that much more difficult to romanticize or hype it up in private.

Other than that it's just a sign of how much groundless drama they've always generated. How much influence he can have on her even while rejecting her. If you had seen these letters sooner you probably would have known he was trouble to keep an eye out for.

Lost, yes you should bring it up to your wife. I don't see any reason to tell your MIL. One of the biggest reasons that your marriage is in this mess is because of a complete lack of radical honesty. All of these secrets have hurt your marriage in so many ways and enabled the fantasy feelings she has for the OM. Affairs thrive on secrecy. More secrets is not the solution. I would tell her that you read her letters and explain that you want to get everything out into the open. Sure, she will be angry, but if you remove the secrets, it will eventually bring you closer.

Nothing in marriage should be kept secret. Please read this article about radical honesty and you will see this is one of the big gaps in your marriage:

This has certainly proven true in your marriage. here

here

This was 18 years ago, though. She did not follow through on it.

Yes, you are preaching to the choir on Radical Honesty. I have been completely honest with WW since we've been married but it has not been reciprocated, as I'm sadly learning now. One of the key points our counselor from 17 years ago gave us was the need for complete honesty. She agreed to it as part of our reconciliation. The problem is when I ask WW about these things she clams up or denies things, even today. Not just with me, but with her mother and cousin as well. Her cousin told me she just cried and wouldn't say much when asked about her affair.
I'm just worried about the timing to talk to WW about the letters. Right now things are pretty fragile but we are civil and happy when together as a family. Would I want to introduce a big LB into the mess? She will complain about my invading her privacy. She was upset at how I gained access to her email (I have not told her how) and she is suspicious. She even stopped wearing her FitBit (thinking I'm using it to track her!) Wouldn't I further alienation and for her be on her guard if I tell her about the letters?
My wanting to talk to MIL about the letters is partly because she is an intended recipient as well, but also because she has shown she has a strong moral compass throughout this ordeal. Even though she was upset about my Exposure, she recognizes what her daughter did was very wrong and told her in no uncertain terms. WW has not been honest with her about OM until I introduced the emails to her (which is why WW is mad at me). If I confide in MIL, I'm hoping to have a stronger ally in getting WW to move forward to Recovery? Or should I do it directly with WW and face the music?
This stuff is so hard, it's making my head spin.

]

No, you should not lovebust her and that is what I am advising. Being dishonest, as you are proposing, is a HUGE lovebuster and has almost completely destroyed your marriage. Don't engage in it.

I get the impression that you believe that conflict avoidance and dishonesty will help your marriage. I assure you it will not. Avoiding conflict and sneaking around with more secrets will not help your marriage. Radical honesty WILL.

As her spouse, you have a right to see and read everything she does. No spouse has a "right to privacy." That is just silly. The secrecy and the conflict avoidance needs to stop with YOU too. You can't complain about her secrecy when you don't practice honesty yourself.


Be honest with your wife about what you know and don't tell your MIL unless hyour wife agrees.

Tell your wife that you will be checking up on her becuase you have a right and need to know what she is doing. You won't give up all your resources, though, because you need that protection.

I understand. It is very hard to break such bad habits. But it is harder to have a bad marriage. That is what we are trying to help you change. Conflict avoidance, secrecy, dishonesty are all very bad habits. No time like the present to change bad habits.

Assuming we get all this honesty and conflict behind us, we do have a great UA opportunity this Sunday as my son will be at a sports camp for most of the day (parents are not allowed! Yay!) Any suggestions for something romantic to do during the day time? I will take her out to a restaurant but not from 10a-3p... She's not a big movie fan either.

Ice skating

Thanks, but we both suck at it and the only rink around here is reserved for ice hockey games on weekends...
Any other ideas?

I would keep the date to about 3 hours so you don't wear her out. Your dates will be uneasy at first so you don't want to make them too long. What does she really enjoy doing?

What about going out to a really nice brunch and then following up with something she likes doing? Such as house tours, museums, etc.

What does she like? Art? Music? Outdoors? Go for a walk in the park or along the greenway. Or bike the greenway. Go for a long drive with music playing. Tour a historic building. take a cooking class. Take her to a museum, the zoo, or some other interesting location. Shopping for music or books. Dancing. Coffee.

I haven't read your whole thread recently so I'm just trying to get you thinking. You weren't always this boring as a date. Think harder.

Great idea! There is a famous local house tour that she mentioned before. She loves to watch HGTV. I'll pitch that idea and see if it floats.

I followed indiegirl's advice instead, and discussed the letters with my MIL. MIL was as shocked as I was. She didn't know the full extent of the affair, as WW redacted significant details. I chose this route because MIL is a very strong influence with WW, they talk everyday, 365 days a year.
She had OM's parents info and called them and read them the riot act, and called OM and warned him to never contact WW again. Her Exposure OM's side was better than I could ever have pulled off, because she had met OM's parents previously when OM and WW were dating before I came into the picture. Her words have a lot more weight than me, a stranger calling.
We are working on a plan to effectively kill the affair in WW's head and for me to discuss the suicide letters with WW...

That is good to have your MIL on your side. Did you thank her?

Does your WW know yet?

Yes, of course I thanked her. She is still upset that I did the Exposure, but I think with the mounting evidence I've given her she is beginning to see the necessity.
No, not yet, I haven't talked to MIL yet, she told me to wait for her to coordinate.

Lots to update on my situation... This is going to be long, sorry!
I'm halfway through "His Needs, Her Needs." It is an excellent book! I wish I had read it when I first got married. It really fit my situation (and I'm sure most who turn to this website) to a glove.
My MIL has not returned my phone calls after the revelation of the letters and other details I had found further on WW's EA. I think she may be too embarrassed by the actions of her daughter to talk to me about them. So I decided it was best I talk to WW directly. I sat down and shared my plans based on MB with WW but she became very defensive and combative. She still blames me for the Exposure. I told her it is very important to have honesty between us.
I then showed her the letters I found. She said they were written so long ago she "doesn't remember their content." However, she was definitely jarred by the fact I found them. I explained these things showed us how important it was for me to Expose the EA, to get things out in the open. Her excuse was, "it was a very sad time in my life, and well, I never sent them, did I?" She then started sobbing and shut down. I sat with her for about an hour while she teared and she became almost catatonic. She kept fidgeting and played with the letters, folding them into halves and eighths repeatedly, saying nothing. I asked her to be honest about the affair but she wouldn't. She finally mentioned a lot of it was just "in her head" and claimed that the OM wasn't the initiator. The email trails I found did seem to agree with that, although it was in October this year the emails turned a lot more emotional (and I think the OM started encouraging her to leave me). Prior to that they actually shared pictures of his and our children and talked about kids' movies. She explained she never had a plan to be with OM and it was just a fantasy. However, she refuses to discuss more details about the EA and just had tears for the next hour.
I let her be for awhile to work through her shut down state. I then told her I love her and I want us to work through this mess, and MB is the best way for us to move forward. She was still resistant and ended the day sleeping in our guest room again.
The next we took our son to the sports camp. I followed the excellent plan suggested by Melody and took her to a very nice restaurant for brunch. She loved the place and the food! I explained what I'm learning from MB and how it could help us. She was quiet throughout, but I think it got to her. After brunch we took a walk to a store nearby that was having an after-Christmas sale on ornaments. She loves these types of stores so we spent a good hour shopping together and laughing at some of the outlandish ornaments that were half-off. We then went to the house tour as suggested and it worked out beautifully, she loved the tour as well, these things are right up her alley. We spent an hour talking at a cafe afterwards and I could see my deposits filling up her Love Bank! She let me hold her hands a few times and put my arms around her, and I gave her a foot massage before sleeping.
When it was time to go to bed, I asked her to come back to our master bedroom but she refused. She said, "Every time one of my friends emailed or texts me to talk about the affair it makes me sad and mad!" Two of her friends tried to reach out to her during these last few days and she told them she's not ready to talk to them (I know because I'm monitoring everything surreptitiously now!)
My question now is, how do I get her to move beyond the Exposure and her shame? I think that's the last thing that is really blocking us from our path to Recovery. The friends have also contacted me and I told them to hold off for now, wait for WW to initiate when she is ready.
I am still executing on Plan A and I see the small rewards and deposits, but it is excruciatingly slow. I told her I loved her this morning and I was able to hold her hands and get very close to kissing her lips (I got the cheeks instead).
Do I just need to be more patient and wait for her to come back from the guest bedroom one day?
Thanks for your advice in advance!

Call them back and ask them to reach out to her. The WHOLE POINT of exposure is to splash a dose of reality onto the affair. Why would you negate the benefit of exposure by telling them not to reach out to her? There really isnt any point in exposure if they do not reach out to her or she - at least - knows they know. Don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory when you are ahead.

Contact her mother too, and ask her to discuss her thoughts with her daughter about the letters.


You are already done with Surviving an Affair? Are you following the program described in SAA? This should be your BIBLE right now. Is there a reason you are reading the HNHN at this crucial time?

]
None of this is blocking your recovery. What is blocking your recovery is her addiction to the OM. But, she can go through withdrawal if you continue to splash reality on her affair. But you prevent that from happening when you tell people not to call her.

The more reality, the less the fog. She is still angry about exposure becuase she is still in the fog.

I want to emphasize that the goal here is to save your marriage, it is NOT to avoid your wife's anger at all cost. She is supposed to be upset and angry about exposure. That only means that you made a direct hit on the affair. That is a GOOD THING, not a bad thing. The more upset, the greater the blow to the affair.

Very good point. They are calling her but she is not taking their calls. I will encourage them to continue to try to reach her.
MIL is not returning my calls for some reason. I will try again.

Good man!!

Yes, I am done with SAA. I've been following SAA's advice and cutting her off on OM.
I started reading HNHN and found it to be very valid and useful to see what I was doing wrong. But I'm focused on following SAA at this point. I was using HNHN to sell WW on the vision of our marriage in the future.

gotcha!

Contacted the friends who were rebuffed recently. They said they will try again. One was a bit apprehensive that WW will push her away if she comes on too strongly (she had already left a voicemail, emailed, and texted WW). I told her I want her to be comfortable with whatever her approach is but she will help break through WW's fantasy.

Thanks for doing that. And she may not be able to get through to your wife TODAY, but may be able to later. Just reaching out and letting her know she knows about the affair will have an impact.

Four friends are actively working to contact WW, after I talked to them today. One is in town for the holidays and will drive by our house tomorrow to hopefully catch her before she makes her five hour drive back home, despite repeated rebuff. (She was the one who actually set up our first date!) I commend our friends' diligence and perseverance!
All of these attempts at contacting WW is rattling her. However, she behaved with less hostility today as she didn't associate their contact attempts with my coordination. We had a very pleasant evening on the sofa watching TV with light conversation and massages.
I was finally able to get through to my MIL. I was right, she was ashamed of her daughter's behavior. However, as everyone on this forum has already noted, blood is thicker than water. She again criticized my Exposure tactics and tried to explain the EA due to my fault. I didn't try to disagree with her, I just explained what happened when I showed WW's letters to WW a few days ago. It's hard to pit a mother against her child, that's for sure. I explained what I'm trying to do but it's hard for her to see it as more than just vindictive behavior.
Anyway, MIL has already had a big impact on OM and WW and she is convinced they will never talk to each other again. WW actually confided to her that she deserved the shame and punishment of the Exposure because of what she did. She also told WW what she did was very wrong. So I left it at that.

Good job on enlisting these friends!! When your wife's fog wears off she won't see exposure as "punishment." She will be grateful.

LWC,
I'm just catching up on this thread, and I am noticing that you are trying to educate your wife on MB. Stop.

MB is the best tool you can use as you move from the affair to recover, but it is clear that your wife is still in the fog and in withdrawal. Let her catch up on the principles when she is past withdrawal, and simply apply them yourself.

That brunch date you set with her was a success, and you need to multiply those efforts. Bringing up the affair and talking about the relationship is going to push your wife further away. Spending quality time that is mutually enjoyable will bring her closer to you.

I would strongly recommend you take a vacation together. A cruise is perfect as you can concentrate on each other without worrying about driving around or planning.

Can your MIL or someone else watch the bambino while you're away.

UA time is your best ally right now. Exposure is done, so it is time to start making those love bank deposits and spending a lot of time together.

Good point. As others have suggested, I have backed off on pushing the MB principles and am working on reading and executing the MB points myself.
I would love a vacation right now, except we just went on one right after D-Day (which, I can assure you, is not the best way to enjoy a vacation!) Cruise is a no go for WW as she gets terribly seasick. We typically go to all-inclusive resorts in the tropics which is similar, no worrying about planning or logistics once we get there.
Will have to work on creative ways to do UA, like last weekend. WW is still very much against leaving our son somewhere to do UA. She doesn't want to do anything without our son, even if I secure a sitter... Any suggestions on overcoming this resistance?

I was able to convince WW to go on a mini "date" with over the weekend, I booked a couples massage and then we spent a little time afterwards together at a restaurant. However, she is still very resistant to the idea of trying to plan UA time together. She said she doesn't want to leave our son with a sitter.
I haven't brought up any MB principles or pushed her about our relationship. We've had pleasant family time together throughout the holidays, going to movies and other recreational activities together. She is still sleeping in the guest bedroom and refuses to come back to our bedroom, which really bothers me a great deal. I didn't want to push a "selfish demand" and so I just kiss her good night and go to bed, but it tears me up inside to do that.
Plan A is a lot harder to execute than I imagined. It's been six weeks since D-Day and I can't imagine doing this for "six months to a year," as prescribed by SAA.

I've been putting Plan A into practice, doing everything I can to fulfill her EN (my guesses, since she wouldn't do the questionnaires): being affectionate, holding hands, talking to WW. She is however rejecting any UA time, always wanting to include our son. She complains my efforts at being a better husband are fake. When I asked if there's anything else I can do, she replied, "You've already done too much!" referring to the Exposure. She still has not talked to any of her friends, despite them repeated reaching out to her. She is still extremely bitter about it, complaining that now she has no friends, etc. She is particularly upset at my telling our 11 year old son.
There has definitely been NC with the OM. After my MIL's phone call I'm sure the weasel has his tail between his legs. MIL is still upset at me for the Exposure as well.
We do spend a lot of family time together and I get a couple hours alone with her on the sofa with her every night while our son is working on his homework. We usually watch her favorite programs on HGTV and I give her massages every night which she accepts, but she still sleeps in the guest bedroom.
Any suggestions on how to get us to Recovery? I feel like I'm in a stalemate right now. Help!

Are there Lovebusters or previous complaints you can address?

It Will take time. You are only 2 months in.

WW's previous complaints were that "You don't care about me" and that I don't listen to her, and that I make callous comments. I have been working these things and watching what I say, saying as little as possible in most situations. She complained about driving around town so I've been doing the driving exclusively when we are together. I've been doing the little things that I used to do when we were dating, e.g. opening doors for her, carrying things around for her, etc. Little chores around the house like taking out the trash, washing dishes, etc. I'd now do on my own as I see them. However, these efforts were also what earned me the "fake" complaint now as well. But I told her that is for the long run and I'm working on them...
I think her main Lovebuster now is the Exposure to her friends and also to our son. However, that was central to killing the Affair right? She's really stuck on that and said she could never forgive me for the Exposure even if I can forgive her for her EA.

Have you read Lovebusters?

Exposure isn't a Lovebuster.

That's fine because you don't need her forgiveness for exposure. One suggestion I have is to enlist the services of professional counseling at MB and see if they can persuade her to engage in your marriage. I would hire Dr. Harley's daughter, Dr. Jennifer Chalmers, a licensed psychologist. Since she is a women, she might be more successful getting through to your wife. It is phone counseling and costs around $200.

They are very good counselors and have been trained by Dr. Harley. If she can persuade your wife to do this program, we can help you get through the program on the forum. I expect your wife to refuse to do the counseling, but Dr. Chalmers might have an idea about getting her on the phone with her. Steve Harley has been successful in that regard by telling the BS to ask the WS to have a session to explain her issues with the BS. The contact information is at this link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html

I think one of the reasons she is still so foggy is because her affair has gone on for YEARS. The fog has become a way of life for her so it will take longer for her to withdraw.

Yes, I would love to sign her up for counseling with Dr. Chalmers but WW has refused all forms of counseling. We worked with a marriage counselor 17 years ago, but we both agreed he was not very effective. He basically asked us what our problems were and told us to work on them. Her words were, "I don't want to talk to a stranger." However, she has not talked to anybody other than her mother, cousin, and one friend. I don't believe she talked to this one friend very deeply about our problems either, as she is dealing with a recently discovered tumor. She told my wife that she's a mother of two and didn't have time to read through the email chain I sent with the Exposure letter, which my wife was happy about.
Our other friends continue to contact WW, and WW said this makes her even more upset every time she receives a voicemail, text, or email. I saw the texts and email she sent back to them, saying, "Thanks but I will contact you when I'm ready to tell my side of the story."
I'll try again with her when I think the opportunity is there but she has not very receptive to MB concepts, etc. We watched the Infidelity and Men's Needs videos from the site, but she said she doesn't want to watch any more videos. I conveniently placed the SAA book on our dresser *in case* she wants to read it. I've quit mentioning MB for the last two weeks now from the suggestions I've received on this Forum.
I realize I owe her no apologies for the Exposure, but it is what she is using as the reason for not wanting to get back on track.

Yes, I've read Lovebusters and I'm pretty sure I've eliminated most if not all Lovebusters now.

Any complaints besides exposure (none of us expect her to be happy about it)? Possible areas.

Below, I've included potential areas to think about. You don't need answer the questions here, unless something is unclear.

Lifestyle- where you live, the type of food you eat, the number of hours you work, how chores are divided, type of cars, vacations, etc.

UA- you are trying to work around her unwillingness to leave your son by bringing him along or spending time with her at home. While y'all will want to transition to actual UA, can you create a more date-like area at home - candlelit dinner (dinner area would need to be very clean and out of view of TVs) hot chocolate under in your yard under the stars or by the fire, etc.,- after your son is asleep?

Love busters- exposure is not something to apologize for. Disrespectful judgements and IB are the most insidious Lovebusters, consider if these may affect you. Markos has some good posts on what constitutes a DJ you can look up. Even "good" IB is still IB -gym time, church activities, etc. Are there annoying habits she complains about? Start eliminating those. Also, limit relationship discussion to a brief time once per week - frequent "state of the relationship" questions are very annoying. Her feelings will take time to change.

Extraordinary precautions- how are your EPs holding up?

WW complains mostly about past incidents and DJ's, going back to before our wedding. She complained about household chores but I'm proactive about doing them, e.g. taking out the trash, folding laundry, washing dishes, etc. I'm sure she noticed them too but she does not compliment me, she complained about me being "fake."
In terms of Affection, she won't let me hold her hand now either as she complains it's "fake" as well as I didn't do that much before. She would also only let me kiss her on the cheeks and not the lips. She does allow me to give her foot massages nightly, something she really enjoyed and complimented me on before. But now she would fall asleep during them, and then go right to bed after our son goes to bed. I do use the time on the sofa to talk to her about her day, her work, etc. She sometimes opens up to me but on other days she's a little belligerent.
We didn't have much IB issues, we spent a lot of time together as a family, and still do. The only time away for her is her gym time, but it's about a couple hours during the weekend. During week days she goes to the gym after I go to work.
I've kept relationship discussions to once a week.
My EP's are on point. The POSOM is on another continent so it's very difficult for them to reach each other. I monitor all devices and there has been zero contact. Obviously, she knows I'm tracking her due to the Exposure but I have not compromised my means and methods, and I don't talk about them. She is not very technology-savvy whereas I am.

The times she opens up you are making huge gains, the days she does not you are not really losing anything.

Sounds like you are doing a good job!

Is it possible your wife is depressed? A depressed person is often flooded with negative memories. I am by no means an expert on this subject, but it is not uncommon during depression to be harassed available negative memories.

I did not suggest you "sign her up," but that you get a counseling session with Dr. Chalmers. Dr. Chalmers would coach you in bringing her on board and give you next steps. I did not suggest that YOU persuade your wife to counsel, but that you let Dr Chalmers coach you in that regard.



sigh... I am not sending you to a traditional marriage counselor. The MB coaches are completely different. YOU are not very effective. I am hoping that someone else will be.


I don't believe it is effective to have your friends contact her. I don't understand why you ask them to do that. IT seems you often depend on others to do things for you. If you are going to do that, why not hire someone who actually knows what they are doing? You are now supposed to be in recovery. The biggest obstacle is your wife's motivation. But, you are not going to change that if you ignore the advice I gave you. Apparently, I just wasted my time posting to you, which I find very frustrating.

Almost every couple that comes to the Harleys for counseling has one reluctant spouse. They are very effective in bringing the reluctant spouse on board. I did not ask you to motivate her, but suggested that Dr. Chalmers could help you with that.

Ok, got it! I didn't read it carefully. I'll try to contact Dr. Chalmers.

It is very possible that WW is depressed. Several years after our son was born the media publicized postpartum depression. She saw it on TV and said "That was me!" There was a period after giving birth that she felt unattractive (due to having a C-section) and she was surprised that I still wanted to make love to her.

However, she does tend to let things drag out, I tried to tell her to get various medical and dental issues looked at before and she would procrastinate until the last minute. She told me at her last checkup that she told her doctor about stress and other issues (not our marital issues, I don't believe). But I don't believe the doctor prescribed any AD for her. The doctor told her to eat healthier and exercise more, which she has been.

How do you suggest I broach this subject without seeming judgmental about things?

Call and get an appointment with Dr. Chalmers. Let her coach you on your next steps. Asking her if she is depressed is not a plan of recovery, it is a distraction. She is depressed because her affair was ruined. We already knew this.

Your biggest problem is that she is not motivated to recover your marriage. You need to hire a professional who can coach you in bringing your wife on board.

The solution to a depressed wife is a fantastic marriage with her husband. Which is exactly what the Marriage Builders plan provides, when followed.

exactly!!

Um, sorry, but I hope I'm not going crazy myself. Didn't you tell me on 12/28 to have her friends to continue to try contacting WW a couple weeks ago? I'm just following your advice and I told our friends to continue to try, even though she rebuffed them. In any case, they weren't successful even though they diligently tried.

I will contact Dr. Chalmers for coaching.

Um, sorry, but I hope I'm not going crazy myself. Didn't you tell me on 12/28 to have her friends to continue to try contacting WW a couple weeks ago? I'm just following your advice and I told our friends to continue to try, even though she rebuffed them. In any case, they weren't successful even though they diligently tried.

I will contact Dr. Chalmers for coaching. [/quote]

I told you to have her friends contact her in EXPOSURE. Exposure is over. She knows they know. Now we are onto recovery methods. These friends have no experience in that regard.

I would think you should only tell your friends to contact her once during the initial exposure step. Do not keep reminding them to keep reaching out. It makes you look bad if you are calling your wife's friends and saying "Hey did you talk to my WW yet this week?"

You will find, as I have found, that some people you expect to really "come through" for you may just avoid your situation. Others that you did not expect to contact your wife will be monumental in their efforts to help.

One thing I had to overcome during my exposure step was the thought that I could control everyone and how they interacted with my wife. Do not treat exposure like a chess board, and now you have a bunch of Pawns to play. Just like the interactions between those you exposed to and your WW happen without your interference.

You just focus on meeting them ENs.


^^This^^

Ok, got it. It's hard when I'm getting conflicting advice on the forum, from goody2shoes...

Lost, this post gave me the impression that you were having these friends contact her in PLACE OF a professional counselor because she does not "want to speak to a stranger." May be I misunderstood you and you didn't mean that at all, but it was written in that context.

My suggestion to have these people call her was only in the context of exposure, to let her know they know of the affair.

Yes, very true. Some of our friends I expected to help just paid lip service to it. Others made great efforts. But in the end WW needs to want to talk to them for that to happen.
I just had them contact her ONCE but none of them were able to. They came to me to see how things are going and whether they should try to contact her, which I said yes.

I think goody2shoes was just asking you if YOU think she might be depressed - but yah, just forget about that for a bit.

I think Dr. Harley's literature does mention that depression and withdrawal are very common for a wayward after the affair. That is why its so vital that you execute the plan so you can back fill her vacancy the affair filled - so she does not fill it with another one.

No, not in place of. Just to confirm the Exposure with her. Timeline of Exposure to now has only been a few weeks. Some of our friends are concerned (rightly so) that WW didn't respond to them. They asked me if they should continue trying? I initially told them to back off a bit but you advised that they should keep trying.

I'll give Dr. Chalmers a try. Still continuing to work on making the Love Bank deposits...

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.

I put in a request on the link for Dr. Chalmers. Waiting for them to get back to me on scheduling...
Last night I spent some semi-UA time with WW as usual, giving her a massage. I tried to engage her in conversation but she just pays lip service and watched TV instead. Finally, I asked her if I'm doing something wrong. She said I'm not acting "normally" and I should just behave like I normally do and watch TV. I explained to her that I'm trying to correct my previous mistakes, and addressing her EN's like Being Affectionate and Intimate Conversations. She then blew up and got very angry at me, blaming everything on the Exposure. She said now she has no one to talk to, I even turned her mother and cousin against her! So we went around in circles again, I said I only Exposed her affair to save the marriage, and nothing I wrote was untrue. She then said she doesn't want to talk about it any more, she will "give me an answer next week." What do you guys think that means?!?
Any suggestions on how to deal with this?
I'm positive there has been no contact between her and OM. I have everything monitored and I'm around her whenever I'm off work. The only possibility is if she is using work phone or email to communicate, which I find impossible for her to actually do.
I'm still trying to make LB deposits, I helped her with getting her car repaired, did a bunch of chores around the house, etc. It's been like this since the Exposure, she's either detached from me, or very angry about the Exposure. So I don't think there is anything I'm doing Lovebusting-wise, she just can't get over the Exposure.

Don't explain these things to her. Just do.

Stop discussing exposure with her. Respond with silence. Debating her like this only withdraws from the lovebank.

Got it

Why would that be impossible? Are you monitoring her work phone and email because that is typically the way that waywards communicate. She sounds very much like she is still in touch with her boyfriend.

No, they are both public, so not possible.

Can you be more specific?

Accessed by multiple people in her department

You might want to keep your eyes peeled for a secret cell phone.

Believe me, I've got my eyes peeled for that since D-Day... No signs of it at all, and I've been very thorough this time around.

Good man!!

You have got to place yourself in her position and think about how you would work it. For instance, could she be accessing a secret email account from another location such as a public library, or does she have a secret burner phone? The fact is, with a minimal effort, she can get the upper hand on this. There really is no way you can be certain.

Do you have a VAR in her vehicle?

Yes, of course, we can go down the rabbit's hole and there are a zillion possibilities. Any time a person is out of your sight there's a possibility, isn't there? I have a demanding full-time job so I cannot be following her around all day (I'm doing that already with a GPS, so she's not going to the library). But with the intervention by MIL on both my WW and OM and his families, and Exposure to her friends and OM's friends, I seriously doubt that. My MIL was deeply shamed by WW's emails and she told WW she will kill herself if she talks to OM again! She is also not that technically proficient, she needed my help to set up her phone, email account, etc. Believe me, once bitten, twice shy. I'll never be complacent again!
So let's focus on the main issue here, which is her reluctance to enter Recovery. She keeps saying she doesn't know if she can ever get over the Exposure. I was very successful and contacted all her friends, so she says now she has no friends left. She said she hates email and social media now, she's scared to look at her phone because she might get yet another message from a concerned friend asking to talk to her about the Affair. So far she has avoided talking to any of her friends except one, and I don't believe she talked to her in depth about it either. She is reluctant to talk to her mom about it.
I'm doing the best Plan A I can under the circumstances, we had a pleasant evening last night and I think it is progressing. Like others on this forum mentioned, I may just expecting too much progress too soon. (WW said that too). But she did ask to give her a week to let me know... That comment is what is bothering me, what difference would a week make? There are no significant events around then...?
Haven't heard back from MB about an appointment with Dr. Chalmers. I will follow up with them today.

You could make all your social media accounts represent you both.

One of my good couple friends have a Facebook account that represents them both. Maybe your wife could tolerate it if you start posting some pictures of you both and changed the name of your Facebook to both your names (Facebook does not technically allow an account to represent two people, but you can make your first name like BOBandMary Johnson). She would see some of her old friends start to like the pictures of you two, and your friends would start to like them too. Make her start to believe, "Hey, maybe this can work after all"

Also, with your social media representing you both, it would satisfy many of Dr. Harley's ideas (POJA, etc). You both would only post things you both agree to post, you both could see what each other is "liking", chatting with, etc.

Just some thoughts for you

By the way, I read about Cheaterville on the forum from posts a while ago. Is that site still working? How does it work?

Just for the record, Prisca and I did that. Then after merging our accounts she had an affair with one of my Facebook "friends."

Good point, but she didn't carry on her online affair using social media, it was all through email and phone calls. She is upset by FB now because I exposed it using her FB contacts to her friends, so every time she gets a notification from FB she is afraid that it's yet another friend asking about the Affair. It is more a stick to her than a carrot. She didn't friend OM on FB as she knew I would have caught her easily before.

Ah. Well, I guess it was not the best advice then...

The old adage: If there's a will, there's a way.
The solution is to eliminate the will.

According to Dr. Harley that is not the solution. Willpower doesn't work. We would all have an affair in certain circumstances, and none of us would have an affair in other circumstances. The solution is to avoid the circumstances that make an affair possible.

Dr. Harley says to eliminate all avenues that were used to facilitate the affair. If she used email and such it's best to eliminate all social media also.

Yes, that's what I meant, eliminate the circumstances that generate the will.

What about my question about Cheaterville?

To post OM on it?? Dr. Harvey definitely recommends posting the affair partner on those sites.

Exactly. I have a very strong will to never have an affair again. It would destroy my life.

But ...

I don't dare rely on my will. Instead, we created a lifestyle that would make an affair impossible for either of us.

Here She's a homewrecker.com

Thanks, I will post on homewrecker. The cheaterville site seems to be all about bullies and sex criminals?

I posted the OM in my situation on http://cheaterreport.com/

Good suggestions, thanks.
Any legal repercussions to posting on these sites? Obviously I will only post the facts, so no slander or libel cases.

I know they might be able to get you for DMCA copyright infringement (selfies). What about harassment claims?

You guys were right! I did a detailed search of our house and found a $6,000 retainer agreement for a divorce lawyer. I talked to WW and found that my MIL gave her the money for it! Also, the one friend she was talking to was an enabler! She got her a secret cell phone. I have been gaslighted this whole time, thinking I'm making LB deposits. Instead she was plotting all along!
I'm so depressed... What do I do?

So can you confirm contact with OM with the secret phone?

I'm so sorry we were right. We've seen it too, too many times.

What is her plan, Lost? Have you spoken to her mother?

No, I cannot find where she is keeping the secret phone... :-( I have searched far and wide.
I've looked and she has gotten better at hiding things, after I confronted her about the attorney. She said she has not filed and she is trying to decide what to do. I found her notes from her meeting with the attorney, talking about 50/50 on property, state requirements on child support, etc.
I found out that MIL has been helping her look for apartments around the area and may have given her money for deposit.
I called MIL this morning and asked her what happened to helping us reconcile. She said WW is still her daughter and she is an adult. The only thing she could do is support her. She was very unhappy about the Exposure and said that is why she ended up supporting my wife. She did say however that there is no way WW is contacting OM, that is impossible. WW also claimed no contact with OM.
All of our funds are in joint accounts as our state is a community property state. She opened up a new checking account. I'm not sure why, probably to keep track of her own spending? Her paychecks are minimal and cannot even cover the rent. We have plenty of cash in there.
What should I do now?!?

My MIL did say she confiscated WW's passport in case she wanted to go visit OM, so she said she is sure there is no contact between OM and her. She said all the other things are my fault because I did the Exposure of the affair! She said the problems now are between me and WW and OM is out of the picture!

Ok, she is very probably still in touch with the OM, so I would keep looking for contact. That would explain her lingering "fog" and anger about exposure. Since she has threatened divorce, I would move your money to a safe place so she doesn't wipe you out.

Other than that, you just need to sit back and bide your time. It is very common for a wayward to threaten divorce when you interfere with the affair. They typically don't follow through.


Or to wipe you out with a big money transfer.

She has no earthly idea what your wife is doing, though. I would stay polite to her but otherwise, ignore her comments. She is not a friend to your marriage right now.

That $6,000 retainer seems very serious to me. I guess I have to get an attorney now... I hate having to do this...

Wait, did she hire the attorney? Has she filed?

Yes, she must have. They wouldn't give free advice, would they? She said she was only looking at her options but it sure doesn't look good if she's apartment hunting!

They typically DO give a free consultation. A retainer is not paid unless they hire them, which means filing for divorce. She wouldn't pay the retainer unless she had decided to file for divorce. One doesn't have to pay a retainer to just get a consultation and consider options.

She said she hasn't filed yet but is considering

Then she very likely has not hired an attorney.

The retainer agreement and $6,000 means she has hired an attorney.

Have you pulled a credit report on her recently?

Yes, nothing of note on the credit report, I just ran a couple weeks ago because she got a fraudulent account opened.

I talked to WW. She said she has not given the lawyer the $6K retainer, so no filing has been done. I made an offer to her, instead of moving out and starting the terrible separation process, to stay in the guest room as long as she needs while I show her a good Plan A.
She was very upset at my finding all her secret papers and phone. She was also very upset I contacted MIL about her helping WW in getting an apartment, etc. She said this behavior was not open and honest either.
Right now she is really considering moving out and filing. What should I do? I feel like my allies have been turned against me, I feel terrible.

Lost, your mission should be the same, however, I would not agree that she moves out into the guest house. That is a bad idea. She is not moving out so I don't know why you suggested she is. You won't know if she is moving out until you see her packing and leaving. Until that happens, she is not moving out.

Most waywards threaten divorce and/or threaten to move out when they are angry and it never happens. Just keep snooping and stick to your Plan A.

SHe has no plan here. She is confused and upset that you ruined her affair so she is in pure react mode and doesn't know what she is doing.

YOU, on the other hand, have a plan and are not confused. You just need to stick to it.

As far as finding out her secrets, you have a right to know everything she does since you are her husband. She should stop hiding things from you.

No, not the guest HOUSE, but the guest BEDROOM, where she has been sleeping since I confronted her about the Affair two months ago after I discovered the emails. I told her she can be there for as long as she needs and I will stop pressuring her to come back to the master bedroom, because she was upset by that. If she leaves my Plan A game will be greatly diminished, right?
She has been apartment hunting based on phone logs I recovered so she is definitely serious about it. Also I got a hold of her notes with the lawyer that's why I know she's serious.

Yes, I know I have the right as the husband to know everything. She gets very upset and defensive so I stopped trying to justify it. She told me she knows I've been going through her stuff (to look for the secret phone) but she said she needs it to contact the lawyer.
I need to stop being emotional and reactive, and really think things through next time before showing my cards. I think I told her too quickly about the secrets I found. I should have had a plan to execute correctly. I found she had some applications for apartments already.
It's very hard right now to execute Plan A because she is so mad at me.
The hardest part is everyone is blaming the Exposure for things. The MIL, cousin, her enabler friend, are all saying my behavior is out of line and vengeful. I don't argue with them any more but it is very tough on my psyche.

"Serious" would be talk coupled by actions. That has not happened here. She told you she was considering her options and what that means is that she is very confused.

You are NOT confused and fogged out, though. So what you need to do is stick to your plan. She has no plan, you DO. Keep encouraging her to come back to your bedroom and keep painting a picture of a great marriage.

I understand completely. I know it is hard. Just stick to your plan and try and find her phone. I assure you she is still in touch with the OM. Your wife is upset about your snooping because she has something to hide.

If she moved out into her own apartment, it would wreck her affair for good so don't be so scared about that. Her affair has gone on for 20 years because it has been protected from reality. If she moved out, the fantasy would collapse quickly because the OM is not going to leave his wife for her.

And you do need to move your money to another account so she won't wipe you out!

Moving money: Do I want to do that before she executes on any plans? Right now she is still considering. If I did that, she will surely flip, as it's a big Lovebuster, right? Even if I were to move the money, I believe I can only move 1/2 of the money since it's a community property account. Even that is a substantial sum.
She already had visitation days and schedule drawn up, based on her free (I suppose) consultation from her attorney. She was talking about how to coordinate pickup and dropoff already. She opened a separation checking account under her name. I found a list of 10 apartments that she was checking out. I think those are pretty concrete plans, don't you?
I told her I don't want to talk about that, I want to work on reconciling and showing her how great our marriage can be. She said by snooping and talking to her Mom and friends I already showed my character.
The OM is on another continent and will not move here. However, he is an insidious influence on her against our marriage, that's for sure, even if he has no plans to be with her.

You don't want to leave yourself in a position to be financially wiped out. And since she is making such threats, you need to be prepared and take action to protect yourself. Waywards can cause enormous damage when they are the fog. Dr Harley recommends that you safeguard your finances. The issue of community property is not valid here, because you are not getting divorced.


Concrete plans would be signing a lease, hiring a moving company and filing for divorce. That may happen, but it has not happened YET.


I agree. That affair has no future.

OK, done, it was a lot simpler than I thought, just a phone call and some keystrokes online. I changed all paper documents to electronic since she doesn't have access to the electronic account as well. I just left a month's float in the community account so our checks won't bounce.

Good job!

Maybe I am misunderstanding this part of your response here, but did you verbally say "While I show you good Plan A?"

I would avoid announcing that you are "Plan A'ing" else she may think its fake and insincere. Just a comment.

I agree with Melody... my WW did not threaten me with moving out, she outright was moving out and she said she was moving out while packing up her things. I came home to see the window knocked out with her stuff gone. She filed for divorce and moved out - my WW had a plan... Not to undermine your situation (don't take it the wrong way) but it really sounds like your WW is not quite there yet.

Just keep Plan A'ing that woman

No, I didn't say "Plan A" to WW, she wouldn't know what that is anyway. I told her that "I will work on changing my behavior in our marriage so we can have a loving marriage again." She told me she doesn't believe people can change so I tell her it's my bad behavior that I will change.
She is very angry with the whole Exposure thing so she has no interest in learning MB concepts or talking to the MB coaches, unfortunately.
Yes, I think I have a small window of opportunity right now. She was a bit stunned by my proposal this morning about the guest room, she said I never offered that before. So I asked her to consider it. Unfortunately after that she launched into a barrage of angry comments about the Exposure and talking to her mom and friends without her permission, etc. I ended it by asking her to just consider what my proposal.
Even after my discoveries this past weekend I've been trying to do as much Plan A as possible, doing the little things that she finally told me bothered her a lot, like opening doors, carrying stuff around, etc. I'm trying to be as affectionate as possible but she pushes me away, sometimes physically now. This is a very tough job!

One of the things WW's enabler friend told me was that she felt WW kept everything bottled inside with her, even with her. She never said anything negative about me to her friend, only that I'm just being myself. WW herself admitted it. It was impossible for me to really understand what was bothering her. Even this past year, we probably truly fought once or twice. She is very good at conflict avoidance. She would just make a remark about something, and if I don't do what she wants or even understand it, she would stew about it. I'm guess over 17 years we probably only had 10 serious arguments.
One of the things she told me really bothered her was I joked in front of DS that she could be "overbearing" on our son sometimes, as she would scold him in the same tone as she does with me when he doesn't do what she said, even something very small. She didn't say anything about it at the time, but now it's a huge issue for her. I realize my fault at issuing DJ to her but now it's half a year later...
I read about this in the HNHN book, but it's very hard to get the communications channels open when one side really bottles up like that. I feel like I have to learn a lot more of her signal or "mindread" what she is thinking for this to work.

Be calm, cool and collected. Do what you can to get your bearings and present yourself as stable and centered. Don't let her mood swings twist you up in knots. She's blowing steam right now.
Be pleasant and confident. Her affair is smoke and mirrors. Remember this and it won't feel so threatening. Make home a warm and welcoming place to be. She might move out. If she does it will be a rude awakening!
Being stuck on your exposure is really dumb if you think about it. She's ashamed to have been caught having an affair. You don't have to tell her this but remind yourself so that you don't start acting apologetic for exposing. You did nothing wrong. Telling the truth is not wrong.
If her friends feel the need to support her it's because they're buying her fog. They think all that stuff is real and so does she right now. She's not rational and needs you to be the strong one. CALM, COOL AND COLLECTED!

This is another reason why you shouldn't be reading HNHN at this time. There is a massive difference between a wayward spouse and a disgruntled spouse. A wayward spouse will rewrite history to magnify irritations, going back years. This is done to justify the affair. So while I am sure there were things that made her unhappy, when there is an affair involved, everything is magnified and rewritten.


What about typically? That is quite a bit.

How many conflicts did you have? For example, most couples have many conflicts in a week, but only in a bad marriage will they have arguments. My H and I have many conflicts, but we always work them out amicably without an argument, using the policy of joint agreement.

Were you able to resolve conflicts without arguments?

Wow... That is really true, she even admitted herself that she feels ridiculous at times when she tells other people about the things she hates about me, as they seem so small.

Ten arguments over 17 years is quite a bit? I mean, less than one argument a year is a lot? These are arguments she just raises her voice but for some of them we do resolve them afterwards. We have disagreements about things but there were very few instances when she actually raised her voice and yelled at me. I've seen this happen a lot more with other couples so I thought we were doing OK.

Most couples do fight ALOT, that is for sure. That is because most marriages are very bad. Keep in mind that very few marriages sustain the romantic love and this is a major reason. But any fighting at all is so destructive to marriages.

We didn't have that many conflicts in reality. Most of the time we agree on things. However, the problem was working them out amicably. In recent years she would just sit on them and they would stay unresolved. Other times, she will just go with my opinion but I can feel she's seething because of it.

An example is about remodeling our house. She loves HGTV and wanted to do some work on various things on the house. I told her that's fine, why don't you start interviewing contractors and get their bids, then we can set up a budget? However, I have learned she hates making decisions. So she just saw a couple places, felt overwhelmed as she didn't have the knowledge, and then didn't want to do anything. She wanted me to be involved but at the time, I felt she's only working 20 hours a week and most of these guys are easier to book during the week, she has plenty of free time to do a good job on this project.
Of course, now I realize my mistake (after reading HNHN, even though you don't recommend it). I should have been more supportive of her EN on this and made the time to interview the contractors, even though I'm probably no better at picking these guys compared to her. But something like this thing she will just procrastinate and not act if she's not happy, which ends up building up in her.
Another small thing is picking restaurants. She does not like to cook so we eat out very often. However, if I ask her where she would like to go, she always says she doesn't care. Then I will make a suggestion and she will shoot it down, complaining about X or Y about that place. This frustrates me inordinately. I figured out the way around it was to give her choices instead, A, B, or C. Then she can do it like that... But this shows her personality versus mine.

Thanks for the clarification. You did a good job of outlining your conflicts. It does sound like she gives up because you both have not learned to negotiate in a way that is productive. Therefore, the issues tend to build up.


This used to be our biggest point of conflict because we eat out quite often. This is very sensitive in our marriage because my husband does not deal well with disappointment. I have a much longer list of potential restaurants than him and enjoy trying new places. He absolutely HATES trying new places. For example, if we are on a trip, he will want to find a Long John Silvers or KFC. I KID YOU NOT!!

But we have learned how to negotiate respectfully and have abandoned the bad practice of sacrifice, so we are always able to find a restaurant that suits us both. We have a short list of local restaurants that we both enjoy.

Sorry to get off on that subject, the bottom line is that we learned negotiation skills in this program so we became capable of finding solutions that suit us both.

Glad we're not the only couple with "restaurant conflicts!" It's stupid but it's a source of conflict. She doesn't want buffets, any place "smelly," etc. It's crazy sometimes.

Regarding ensuring her claimed NC with OM: How do I do this, now that she wised up to her old email accounts? She still denies she is in contact, but now with the secret phone I'm not sure if she has it set up (it's some type of Verizon prepaid phone, can't make international calls but can receive them). I just ordered a VAR to place in the car to record conversations, but I could not find the darn phone for the life of me. Plus she already warned me not to go through her stuff.

The other thing that bugged me was she wanted us to have a discussion with our son. She told him things may be changing, etc. even though we love him very much. I tried to steer the conversation that "Daddy is working hard to reconcile with Mommy" but she would have none of it. My son knows the details of the affair so he supports me against OM, but he is obviously torn between the parents. I feel so sad for him! He was tough about it though and I think he is holding out hope that we will stay together. But this is another piece of the "planning" I see.

Checking my GPS tracker seems like she's been busy looking at apartments today

Nice thing is now we don't really have problems because we have a short list!


I would continue to go through her stuff like a blood hound and for sure, put a VAR in her car!


I would keep telling him that you want no part of separation and only want to take steps to repair your marriage. Don't lie to him about the reasons for this.

Don't be afraid of this. Like I said earlier, it may very well be the thing that kills her fog for good. A good dose of reality might be the best thing.

Question about WW getting apartment: Is she allowed to use marital assets to maintain a separate space apart from the marital home? If so the costs would be several times her monthly earnings in our area. She had mentioned that MIL was willing to help her...
I have not canceled the joint credit card accounts. If I did that it will be a big Lovebuster (I did that 17 years ago when I uncovered the Affair the first time).
It's a delicate balancing act trying to do Plan A without getting taken to the cleaners...

Plan A does not involve allowing your spouse to hurt your finances. You would want to take steps to protect yourself and take her off any joint credit cards. If you allow her to harm you financially, you are a LESS attractive option when her fog wears off.

I am wondering how she would be able to get approved for an apartment if she has a small income? Don't they check your income much like a bank checks to make sure you can pay the mortgage? Thinking out loud here...

Yes, most apartment managers have a credit process. I did go to some of the websites she visited (from my spying) and found some advertise as no credit check required. I'm sure they want a hefty deposit plus proof of liquid assets (which could be from our joint account bank statements?) She mentioned to me that MIL has volunteer to "help her out" using her savings. I guess she could also claim my W2 income and using the formula calculated to have the maintenance payments I need to give her? But I thought that won't kick in until after the divorce is final?
I told her to really think about it because a divorce will easily cost us $50K and will deplete the savings we have for our son, as she wanted to send him to a prestigious private high school.
My MIL has disappointed me the most. I believe MIL is truly appalled by and ashamed of her daughter's behavior but blood is thicker than water. She reneged on her promise to continue to push WW to reconciliation.

EVen if you were divorced, there is no guarantee she would get that. Keeping in mind that there is no divorce action.


I am surprised that she cares so little about her daughter that she would help her wreck her life and the life of her grandson. It is sad when parents care about being liked than the welfare of their child. A caring parent would not help her daughter wreck her life.

I think WW convinced her that OM is not a factor and it's all my fault, that she was "emotionally abused" throughout 17 years of marriage. Doesn't make any sense. She told me whatever she does she has to support her daughter. It just sucks to see someone turned 180 degrees like that, especially if you recall she was the one that called OM and his family out directly!

WW told me not to contact "her" friends any more, or MIL or her cousin. After 17 year, our friends are commingled... I do think my last contact with the MIL and her enabler friend may have turned out to be a Lovebuster and unproductive. But I was just so upset that MIL got flipped. Do you think I should stop talking to "her" friends and only talk to "my" friends now?

I guess it is a good thing your wife is not a serial killer or her uncaring mother would be "supporting" her. A caring parent does not help her child wreck her life. Very sad. I have a grown son and I care too much to "support" him in ruining his life.


I think you should do what is right for your marriage and not get so hung up on what your wife likes or doesn't like. If you think talking to a certain person will help your marriage, you should do it. But don't avoid doing that because you believe it is a "lovebuster."

Yes, I have to balance what is useful versus what may just be venting and ends up antagonizing WW. It's very hard.

GPS is telling me WW is out apartment-hunting again, there's a flurry of cell calls between her and MIL and cousin.
I started reading the laws in our no-fault state and I'm pretty sure I'll be footing the bill for her to maintain this apartment as well as the standard of living we have now. And chances are she's going to take 50% of everything I worked so hard for all these years to support her lifestyle.
I feel so sad and helpless...
:-(

Have you seen an attorney?

Lost, you need to STOP despairing and calm down. Even if she does move out, that will bring her fantasy to an end faster than it would staying there. And just because your state's divorce guidelines say something does not mean she will get that. You seem to have already surrendered before you are at the field of battle. I know it is so scary, but we have seen far worse than this turn around. This is not anywhere NEAR hopeless.

I would pick up a voice activated recorder and put it in her car/purse or coat pocket so you can hear what she is saying on her secret phone. Here is a good one that another board member tried: http://www.penrecorderpro.com/voice-recorder-usb-fd25

So... here is one thing I noticed when I went researching the way you are right now. It helped me it might help you a little bit.

Who goes looking for divorce attorneys or clarity on divorce laws?
a) Spouses seeking divorce
b) spouses not seeking divorce
c) single people

Answer is pretty simple right? Spouses seeking divorce right? WELL, all the articles you are finding as the rarity looking for some clarity are written towards a spouse seeking divorce. I found that they all address assets on the basis of "what you can get" and always ignore the fact that the spouse who does not want a divorce will also be represented. Do not read so hard, you will only discourage yourself - like I was. I got so scared at what the law in my state (also no fault) says, and all the attorney articles on line about the process etc.

I am in all the legality that your WW may be threatening with and let me tell you this - its nothing like anything I read. Everything is so wishy-washy and its all about your attorney. Everything I tell my atty gets translated anyways by him... I still freak out about it - but it is nothing like I read. So don't sweat looking it up, it does not help at all in the process if you eventually do find yourself there.


You are doing great Lost. I doubt very highly, if you are represented, that you are going to end up paying the apartment rent if she signs the lease alone.

While inexperienced, I would recommend this if she asks you to cosign the lease with her (or some variation) -
"Honey, I am committed to building a romantic marriage with you here in our home. We can certainly sit down and talk about another home if you'd like some evening, but aren't we a little beyond renting an apartment?"

Shes swinging in the dark Lost... she's upset that fantasy land is blowing up. HOWEVER, like MelodyLane said - it might take moving out for her to realize that... Just don't cosign, let her make that decision and be miserable with only herself to blame.

***EDIT***

typicalman, you are abusive.

Thanks for the encouragement, WC! I did get a chance to talk to a friend who's an attorney (although not in divorce law), he gave me a great idea on a possible weakness in WW's case. If it comes down to a custody battle I can pull it out of my back pocket if necessary. I will talk to the same divorce lawyer whom I will talk 17 years ago in D-Day 1 soon.

I did have a discussion with WW tonight. I mentioned that the divorce legal fees will likely run $50-75K. Why don't we not go through that and put the money towards renovating our house instead? Spend $100K on the house instead of some lawyers' yachts? That did get her thinking.

Atta boy! Good going man.

Good job! Could you follow it up with a trip to a home improvement store and dream a little? Frankly, if she's been visiting apartments, you want to emphasize how better your home is/can be. There is no way she can afford an apartment nearly as nice as your home.

Yes, I've arranged for a designer to come this week to work with us... This was one of her big complaints, that I wasn't involved with her on the project (she hates making ANY decisions). She said she will think about it. I mentioned this while watching HGTV with her. Hope she will bite!

***EDIT***

citation needed.

I've heard Dr. Harley talk about how it's almost impossible to get women to leave an abusive relationship, so it sounds like you misunderstood.

Also, you don't understand Dr. Harley's definition of abuse, so I don't think you need to be advising people on the subject.

***EDIT***

This was certainly my experience

I had no idea how abusive my husband was (30 year marriage) until I looked back on it. I would not have divorced him had I not discovered that he was also a serial adulterer with no desire to change. Women are wired to adapt and adapt in a desperate attempt to find a way to stay married but of course at great personal cost.

***EDIT***

Update: Had a great conversation with the divorce attorney. He actually remembered our conversation 17 years ago (I didn't actually pay him anything at the time, since we reconciled so quickly then).
He said I've done a great job protecting my assets and chances are WW will have a difficulty time claiming my house, since I purchased it three years before marriage and put a large down on it. I never made the mistake of converting it to a joint deed, even though WW pushed me several times. At most she can claim just a small part of the house since my income funded the vast majority of the payments.
The best part is I most likely do not need to have to finance her separation or her apartment. She will need to think hard if she wants to take $20K from MIL to sign a lease and live in a dumpy apartment. MIL is very thrifty so this is going to hurt a lot!
He did say given the situation, I have an incredibly generous human spirit to be willing to reconcile with WW a second time. He asked if I am willing to have this lingering doubt in my life, even if she reconciled, perhaps for materialistic reasons. I told him it's only been two months and she's still in the fog and I unfortunately still love her. But I guess that is truly food for thought.
I do have the designer coming in a couple days. I asked WW to be there, she said, "Well, if you want me to be." So the carrot may be working as well as the stick.

typicalman, please check your email.

***EDIT***

Moderator's note: STOP!

Still frustrated by inability to find the secret cell phone. WW is on guard all times, I've sneaked out and looked in the car, nothing. She was suspicious as to what I was doing... Don't want to make a Lovebuster over it. She's got the room arranged a certain way to notice if I've been searching around...
I've asked DS to help me search for it as well. She's got it off most of the time so I can't call and find it. Turning into a real cat-and-mouse game!
She figured out I was tracking with her main cell phone, so she turns it off at times. But from triangulating with credit card purchases it looks like she just goes to the mall for shopping trips (I used to complain before about how often she goes there to shop!)
VAR should be arriving in the next few days, will get the velcro ready!
Any other snooping techniques I'm potentially missing?

Are you putting a VAR around the house also? You might be able to hear where she is putting the phone or nanny cams?

Yes, I better go order another VAR.
I woke up at 4 am and started searching the car again. But WW woke up as well and confronted me, asking what I was looking for. I told her, your secret phone of course. She got really mad again and went into the fogbabble about how we shouldn't be together then, if there is no "trust." How can I have trust if she's the one betraying me?
Anyway, a wasted effort. She got mad and said what I said about redoing the house, etc. is all because I want to save "my" money. So difficult to talk to her in this condition.
Will have to redouble the snooping efforts, but on the low down. Probably will have to lay low for a few days to wait for her guard to be down.

Ohmigosh!! I am sorry to laugh but that is so crazy. I would tell her that you would have trust if she would stop hiding things from you.

That's exactly what I told her. But as you know, there's no point in arguing with someone in the Fog, and she definitely is, or is going through withdrawals. It's so frustrating how my life is a series of up and downs now for two months since D-Day. I feel like I've contracted affair bipolarism. I'm just upset that I burned a Love Buster with the unsuccessful effort.
What my lawyer told me is hitting me now though. He is sympathetic to my willingness to reconcile, but asked, "Why do you want to trust her again when she has proven to be untrustworthy?" Especially when she is resistant to seeking help, whether through MB or other counselors.
She's betrayed me twice now, and I'll have to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life even if we were to reconcile, romantic love rekindled or not. And what's to say in the future the romantic is extinguished? This is so frustrating!

And he is correct, however, we have seen marriages like this turn into happy, affair proof marriages. If she doesn't come around in, let's say, 6 to 10 months, you will want to start thinking about separation.

The big thing you have going against you is that this is a very long term affair. That means she has essentially been fogged out for your entire marriage. Not saying she can't change, but it sure is a long shot. That might be the reason why her fog is so persistent. My guess, however, is that her fog is still so obvious because she is still in touch with the OM.

Ironically, it may be that hte best thing for your marriage is for her to move out and get an apartment. That will quickly kill the long standing fantasy of this affair. She will have to realize that the OM will never ever be anything more than an online boyfriend.

I remember about 10 yrs ago we had a similar case, where a WW spent years pursuing an online affair with a married man. The BH ended up leaving and divorcing her after trying everything to save his marriage. Even when they were divorced, she still spent her time on the computer talking to her OM!! The power of long distance affairs is just amazig to me.

Looking through the email trails for the 9 years, most of them were just innocuous Happy Birthday type messages, they even exchanged our children's pictures. There were several years without contact or just one or two emails. What really accelerated was the fact that OM got his second divorce last March and I think started to contact her again around October this year. That was when the email frequency started. (Yahoo has a function to show a histogram of emails from a sender).
She told me she has no plans to be with OM, and he has no plans to move here due to his business (the primary reason they broke up before I came into the picture). In their very last emails (that I found before D-Day), she told him to find someone who wants to be with him (unlike his two ex-wives) rather than for his money.
She just said that she wanted to be away from me because of my Exposure actions and my callousness. Revisionist history of course. We actually had a lot of very happy times in the 17 years of marriage, but now she is blocking it all out, which makes me very sad.

Like I said, the affair has been going on your entire marriage. The messages were not "innocuous" at all because they kept their feelings triggered. Contact never ended. This is a long term affair that never ended. It is much like the type of alcoholic who only binges every few years.


Of course she would tell you she has no plans to be with the OM. Do you think she would tell you if she did? You don't know what their last communications were about because she is hiding her phone. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. And I seriously doubt she has ended her affair given her state of fog.


Her anger over exposure just underscores that fact that she is still in the fog. The FOG is created by continued affair contact.

Do you think I should try to enlist her friends to try to contact her again? She said it really upset her when she hears from them from my Exposure list. Would that help add a dose of sanity and reality to the situation? I think previously you told me to Expose then let the Exposure sink in. But most of her friends have not been able to talk to her about it, since she told everyone of them (except the Enabler friend) that she will "tell her side of the story when she is ready."
The risk in doing this is she might turn the friends to her side, like she did with her Enabler friend, which builds her own idea in that her Affair was justified.
She hated the fact that I contacted "her" friends behind her back. I'm wondering if the positives outweighs the negatives in this equation.

Once again, you guys were right. Overheard her phone conversations as she contacted the OM! It was so disheartening to hear their half hour long conversation, but confirms that I've been gaslighted all this time! Her interest in remodeling was just an act. I also found that she paid the $6K retainer (actually the MIL funded it). I asked MIL if she knew that WW is still in contact with OM, she was stunned and didn't know what to say.
It looks like D is inevitable. My attorney urged that I file first to get on the offensive, and establish the venue. All of this is cold water splashed on WW's face, she has not had to deal with finances for 18 years, she doesn't know how to fill out the support forms! What do you guys think, should I file first? Reconciliation is a long shot and at this point I think. Who files first is a technicality, since it's a matter of time.
WW is having trouble getting an apartment as she cannot qualify with lack of income and credit history to get anything around here.
What a disastrous weekend.
:-(

I'm so sorry to hear this. I know how much it hurts. Hang in there!

Can you cut off or remove her cell phone from your acct so that you're not paying for her to engage with the OM?

No, it's a prepaid phone her enabler friend got her

Awwwww that is terrible. I'm sorry.

I sure hate being right sometimes and this is one of them, but I felt sure that she was still in touch given her high fog level. I would do what your attorney says because her only hope here is to wipe you out financially. File for D but continue to tell her that you don't want a divorce but are only protecting yourself financially. Get financial protections in place and then drag out the divorce.

I want to emphasize that this is FAR from over, though. This affair has gone on for a very long time and has been bolstered by a lack of reality. Reality is now starting to intrude. If she moves out, I predict her little fantasy will die very quickly and reconciliation will be possible.

Stick to Plan A, which means being as pleasant as possible while causing as much trouble in the affair as you can!

Are you sure the OM is divorced?

Also, this was not a disasterous weekend, it was a GREAT step forward because you know the truth now. The affair never ended and you have uncovered this fact.

Please tell me you did not tell your MIL how you know this? I would not tell anyone how you know. If MIL asks you, just say you are watching everything your WW does.

No, I just told them I "overheard" their conversation, without getting into specifics.

Talked to WW's cousin as well, she is shocked that WW continues to contact OM even after cousin's intervention last time. She was upset at me at first about the Exposure but I told her we are way beyond that now. I just want her to know if she helps WW with the D she is helping someone who has repeated lied to her about NC with OM!
Hope this will cause major disruption to the A but at this point the fire in my heart is very faint... I'm not sure if I can still do the Plan A after hearing their conversation.

You handled this perfectly and no one would blame you if you decided to walk away. That being said, you don't have to make that decision today. You can move forward and file for divorce to protect yourself legally. The situation may change and your feelings may change. If that happens and you decide to try, you can always change your strategy. But regardless of what you decide, I would protect yourself legally since your wife is behaving in such a destructive manner.

PERFECT!

What are the statistics around Plan A succeeding? And Plan B?
I believe reading about them being both very low

I would give Plan A about a 50% success rate if the affair is exposed early on. The longer the affair goes on without being exposed, the harder it is to bust up.

The objective of Plan B is completely different, though. The goal is to protect the mental health of the BS. There are many situations where divorce is the definition of success; keep that in mind. All marriages should not be saved.

I depends on what you mean by success, now doesn't it?

Being the BS in an affair situation is the epitome of the proverbial situation of being between a rock and a hard place. So, while I am very sorry that you find yourself in this dreadful situation, there are no guarantees in anything you choose to do. If anything, you want to do the sorts of things that make the situation better and stay away from doing things that will make it worse.

So what are Plan A and Plan B? They are the result of Dr. Harley's accumulated experience with thousands of couples over decades of time. They are the course of actions that will give you greatest likelihood for the best outcome you will be able to get.

And in all fairness to the criticism that the odds of success appear low, one must realize that most of the advice you will find out there doesn't just deliver poor odds for success, but actually hurts the chances and leaves you in a worse state than if you had simply done nothing at all.

Oh, I would definitely say that Plan A gives one the best chance of survival in a bad situation. I don't know of any other plan that would come close. It isn't a guarantee, but it definitely increases the odds. At the end of the day, there is no such thing that will force a wayward to do anything against her will. But if anything might turn a bad situation around, Plan A will.

Like Mr.E and Melody mentioned before, there is nothing that guarantees success - and they have been around this much much longer than me. The same criticisms get placed on exposure. "SO if I expose, the affair will end and my marriage will be safe right?" Quite the opposite in fact.

All these terms/strategies, Plan A, Plan B, exposure, etc. Its all for the Betrayed Spouse's well being. You are dealing with an extreme trauma. I am sure in some cases the success rate of doing nothing and following MB principles were about the same, that is, the wayward was just too far wayward.

Take my situation for example. I have no idea if my wife will ever come back. It sucks to say, I still do not like the idea of losing her for ever and think about a future without her. But I have been suicidal several times throughout my situation. Without the exposure step, I would have virtually no support group. While I believe I have given myself the best chance to save the marriage, I still cannot deny that statistically I am doomed to fail regardless. At some point Lost, you will realize that its about saving you more than saving WS.

These principles, while having better success rates than any other methods, are by far the best in terms of helping the BS's well being....

At least in my experience so far.

Typically, exposure will end the affair which gives the marriage a much better chance of recovery. It is like taking the crack away from the crack head, he sobers up which makes recovery much more possible. Exposure is like bringing a crowd of people into the crack house to watch the crackheads get high; it ruins the high!! It is no fun to get high with people watching.

Dr. Harley says this about exposure:
So yes, exposure does give much needed support to the BS, but the major benefit can be the death of the affair with the added benefit of a more motivated WS. Most recovered marriages on this site attribute that to exposure.

Unfortunately, in my case the Exposure gave me temporary allies for a few weeks. But WW managed to turn her mother as well as her Enabler friend against me, using Exposure as the reason. They are accusing me of being controlling and vengeful and they are using it to justify supporting WW leaving me. Even with the information I gave MIL yesterday that WW is still contacting OM it doesn't seem to faze her support of WW's move. All of them say WW leaving me will be her mistake, she's a grown adult and we need to let her make her own mistakes.
I feel so down these days...

Your exposure has brought her affair out into the open so it is really much harder for her to keep it a secret. Once the affair is in the open, it starts to crumble. The reason her fog has persisted is because she just took the affair further underground.

Surely you have allies on your side of the family, right? In every exposure, there are family/friends who enable the affair, but there are usually folks that will support the marriage.

I am honestly hoping she moves out for her affair because I think that is what it will take to really kill it. It has managed to survive all these years because reality has never intruded. Reality is intruding now, but if she moves out, it will mean the death of the affair. She will have to face the fact that she gave up a great marriage, a secure family for what? A big nothing. A loser who will never marry her, whom she will never be able to take around her family.

Yes, I have allies but she's not even talking to them... They talk to me but in general their sympathy doesn't help me much.
WW talked to me about doing an amicable divorce. But the thought just disgusts me. I can't imagine giving her half of everything I've worked for so hard for the past 18 years! Hearing her talk to OM about me has got to be the lowest point of my life.

So sorry to hear that.

Me as well, I'm sorry.

An amicable divorce is a wayward fantasy designed to relieve the WS of the guilt associated with her/his betrayal and the resultant ultimate breakup of the marriage. After all, if we can put a pretty little bow on it and all be friends, then it really is for the best, isn't it?

Don't take the bait. Divorce is devastating, and there is no way around that. Don't feed the fantasy that a divorce from you can be anything less than what it really is.

More bad news: The divorce attorney wants $10K retainer and bills $600 per hour?!? I checked with my attorney friends and they all agreed that was quite steep for a single-shingled guy. I checked some reviews online and the guy has some scathing reviews by his former clients... (All anonymously, so it's hard to see how much is true but still).
I started searching for other attorney options and talked to another one today. This one told me things a lot closer to the liberal state reality than the first one did. E.g. even though I purchased my house before our marriage, the only part I can keep separate is the down payment I paid, plus the principal payments that I made against it in its first three years, and the appreciation since then from that (quite substantial). I will need to get another mortgage to buy my WW out, even though only my name is on the deed! Plus in our great state with community property laws, I will fork over all assets 50/50 unless I can prove they were all purchased prior to marriage.
The good news is that now I have a lawyer that will tell me the truth and not just shine some fake story on me to get my retainer. The bad news is my WW will clean me out (even in the interim, she can set a hearing in six weeks after filing to carve out the cash). Now I wonder why any woman would want to stay in a marriage if they can take half of everything so easily! This is what I get for being judicious with my investments and savings and paying off all our debt... For it to walk out the door like that and land ME in debt to keep the house?
Now I'm truly depressed! Makes me fume just thinking about this!

What behavior do you expect from an enabling GF? She is probably having had an affair herself. Same for the enabling mom.

There have been WW's moms that have confronted the OM and got rid of him and set their WW/WD straight.

Affairs are a war. Exposure is just a single battle. As in any war all battles must be fought to have a chance to beat the enemy.

Your WW may not have as good as a lawyer as you now have. Also no reason to admit WW rights or give up everything. Remember a lot of horse trading goes on so you may get to keep the house.

Got more referrals from friends and families for attorneys and talked to another one. She said that chances are I will get to keep the house, just have to pay her a small portion of the community property contribution for the mortgage payments for first fifteen years of marriage. I can deduct the market value of what she would have to pay in rent to live in the house as well during that time.
She also said that the fact that there is an affair will impact the spousal maintenance payments as well, which contradicted the second guy I talked to. This despite the fact that we are in a "no-fault" state.
This attorney seems a lot sharper than the ones I've talked to so far. It's frustrating to have to do this also for attorneys while I'm dealing with all these emotional and financial issues. Seems like there are a lot of immoral divorce lawyers out there as well!

You need to hire her!! Most no fault states take infidelity into account when deciding property division and custody. BUT, most lawyers are lazy and just want to do the least work possible. They will ask you to roll over so they can get their job done fast and collect their pay. It sounds like she is a savvy lawyer who will fight for you. It will also help you that she is a female.

Unfortunately I did more research and infidelity only matters in property division if assets were explicitly used to perpetuate the affair, or if the affair partners are living together. For custody it has very little effect unless they harm the children directly.
MIL and cousin are once again assisting WW in apartment hunting. Unfortunately I think she was overselling it (I haven't had our first intake consultation yet with this firm).

I feel terrible today, especially when I hear the way they talk about me. Should I avoid surveillance if it's making me feel depressed? I'm just sad that these people who were on my side are now actively helping WW move out, seeing her as the victim!

I would get moving on this and have a meeting with her. She might have something up her sleeve you don't know about. In Texas, for example, infidelity is taken into consideration regardless of how assets were used. That really doesn't make sense, because most adulterers don't live with their affair partners. I don't know what it would mean to use assets to perpetuate an affair. Instead of searching the internet, just go meet with her and file for divorce.


I am so sorry you have to hear the harsh words of her enablers. If oyu and your wife get back together, she will not remember them fondly.

Yes, I have a consultation set up with her boss next week, she's an associate at the firm. I did talk to her about an hour.
Unfortunately our state is much more liberal than Texas, infidelity is pretty much a non-issue. In my case I don't have any evidence that it was a PA so it's even more difficult.
Assets used to perpetuate an affair would include gifts, trips or junkets, etc. that were given by the WW to the OM, etc.

Lost, have you ever discussed with your wife how your divorce would affect you son?

He will be traumatised for life and years and years of therapy won't be able to help...

I guess she loves your son to pieces and he is the most precious person in the world for her. Going forward with divorce, she is sacrificing your son stability, security, happiness etc.

Believe me, that was the very first thing we discussed when she said she wanted a separation on D-Day. Her response was "lots of kids have divorced parents." She said she was struggling with it for years but I think she is choosing to ignore it due to the fog. The worst part about this whole thing is that my MIL and her cousin were both pushing this issue on her as well. MIL actually said she would never allow her to hurt her grandson.

But somehow now everything is flipped and they are "supporting" her because it is her decision. That is the part that really depressed me, how WW was able to revise the truth and convince them that *I* was the one in the wrong and "abusive" in the marriage. Her examples of petty things such as me asking her to drive us around sometimes (I had a long commute from work) now are being portrayed as "abusive." I just cannot believe it!

I'm just sad my poor son has to suffer through all this. However, he is a strong and resilient 11 year old and I really think telling him the truth helped him throughout this ordeal. WW hated me for doing it though.

Actually, she told me that was one of the worst misconceptions about filing that you will find on the internet... That you don't actually have any tactical advantage to rush to the courthouse and file. The judges already have a long backlog in our system and they don't want people clogging up the system. She said since I'm not the one who wants the divorce, it may better to just wait and see what their opening gambit. What the judges really want is for people to work things out themselves (that's why there's a mandatory six month waiting period before a divorce is granted) and a lot of people reconcile during that time.
It makes a lot of sense so hopefully she is right. However, with WW's attitude since I exposed her continued contact with OM, I have a very difficult time seeing Recovery in the horizon.

Gotcha. Her attitude about exposure is entirely driven by her affair. As long as her affair is active she will be in the fog and be angry about exposure. If you can do anything to bust up the affair, it would make a difference. For example, if you contacted his parents, family, etc it might help. The key here is busting up the affair.

I filed first but my XH asked to become the petitioner in return for agreeing to no grounds trial. My lawyer recommended I agree. Probably the worst piece of legal advice I have ever received. By becoming the petitioner he controlled the agenda. In his case that meant dragging the divorce out for six years. Would have been ten years if he had not made a strategic error (overlooked an appeal).

Being the petitioner gives you far more control.

We did. MIL personally called OM up and chewed him out, cousin was there to witness it. Seems like OM's family has no shame. They also confirmed that he is currently divorced and not married.
Problem I have now is that route has been cut. Even though MIL and cousin disapprove of WW continuing to contact OM, they bought WW's line that OM is really not the issue here, *I* am.

Additionally - my wife filed for D in my situation, she filed on the grounds of "Incompatibility" instead of if I would have filed it would have been "Adultery Committed by Wife". That goes on public record, so any outsiders only really see that we are incompatible.

That does not bother me too much, but it might in your case. But nonetheless, petitioner does put you in a more powerful position I feel. I can do nothing to stop the divorce my wife filed, I can only wait and see if she has it dismissed...

We are in a liberal state. There are no "adultery" options. The only two grounds for divorce are: Irreconcilable Differences and Insanity.

Have you personally contacted the OM yourself?

Have you heard the radio clips of Dr. Harley recommending the BH to confront the OM?

Yes I have confronted the OM. He called me the day after I sent the Exposure letters to all his Facebook friends and tried to threatened me.
I told him to have some shame and stay away from my wife, and that I love her and I will fight for her!

Good for you. Don't be intimidated. When I sent my FB exposure letter the OW friends tried to say that the OW would sue me for libel/slander...all while OW and WH are private messaging...the OW apologized...WH did not. If I got anything out of the FB thing it was knowledge that I blew the lid of secrecy off the hinge!

OM actually called me and said he wanted to talk to me "man-to-man." The coward hid his phone # so I couldn't call him back. I told him, what kind of a man is divorced twice and then tries to get a married woman, someone you broke up with before? He said I was being "petty" and I said that is my wife and life, have you no shame! Anyway after a few more words the weasel hung up the phone.

I'm so sorry. I know it's painful.

I took another crack at OM's parents. After getting put on hold for quite a few times, got to OM's mother! Turns out OM told her that my wife and I have been divorced "for a long time" and that's why he is contacting her! She had no idea we are still married. I told her we very much are still married, our 11 year old son is taking a shower as we speak! I ask that she control her son and not have him wreck another marriage, after being through two divorces himself. She asked me, how did I know? I said from your son's emails to my WW! She confirmed he is definitely currently divorced.

Apparently my MIL only yelled at OM, who's thick-skinned enough to not care and still carry on.

OM's mother apologized for her son's actions and said she will control him. Hopefully this cracks the A further!

Good job, West!!
Way to stay focused.

Good job!! Can you find this rat on facebook?

Yes, that's where I started. I already message 12 of his top friends. The guy has no shame, lied to his parents.

Great news you got to the OM mom.

I emailed WW's cousin and MIL that I contacted OM's mother and her response. I got an email from the cousin telling me to "stop involving these people that have nothing to do with my relationship with WW." I'm very sad that these former allies are now buying WW's arguments at face value. I can't believe how easily people get turned. Cousin hasn't talked to WW at all but is fed this info from MIL about how she has been mistreated by me throughout the marriage. She also said that if I cannot keep bringing up WW's "indiscretions" then the marriage would never work.
In response, I reminded her that I heard the conversation WW had with OM and it is very much a thing alive! How do I stay sane when the people around us are so blind to the truth? I told her, I focus on the Affair because it is the thing that's ripping our marriage apart! WW is actually very afraid of this cousin and that is why she has not talked to her directly since the first intervention. But cousin is stuck being obstinate and I can't seem to get any traction with them.
WW tells me to stop involving other people. She said she is almost 50 years old and these other people cannot influence her. I told her the reason I do it still is I'm hoping the other people can convince her she is making a mistake to walk out.
WW told me she is filing. I said if you are, just ask your lawyer not to serve me at work and embarrass me.
I told her, even after all this, I want to keep our marriage alive and I still care for her. She said, "It's too late, you've already done too much." What should I do? Let her walk out and try to take 1/2 of what we have?
We spent the past weekend cordial and together and watched a movie with DS, but she is totally cold to me and shutting me out. Some support from the forum would be appreciated, I am so sad and upset.

I'm sorry you're going thru this. But if you've exposed to everyone hearing their bitterness is not going to help you.

Her telling you that you've done enough is just her still making up excuses and justifications for HER bad behavior and poor choices. Since you're still living under the same roof all you can do is be cordial and kind. Sometimes saying nothing at all speaks volumes.

Hang in there!

She's still under the same roof but she is definitely working on moving out. We've split up the credit cards but I won't give her any money for her new place. I told her I'll pay for anything for our family, but I refuse to fund anything that will break apart our family.
It will just be a matter of time until she files. She will ask for support through the courts and I will have to pay her. This part is just so wrong, I seethe every time I think about it!

Get as much of your finances protected and insulated. Separate your checking acct and if you have direct deposit for your work change that now. Put all your savings in another acct as well...because once she files that freezes up all assets.

I still think you should file first and get the upper hand. move to protect your assets and leave her in the position of having to adjust to your demands. Be proactive here.

She's been in a fog for the whole marriage. All the way back to the suicide notes before the wedding. It's going to take a lot to break her out of this thinking.

By filing first, you will slow her down at least financially. DO IT.

She is likely an adulterer herself. I think people are much more inclined to help when you ask them for help. Otherwise it just sounds like tattling. My response to her would have been:

"You are an important person in WW's life and I was hoping you would use your influence to persuade her stop her destructive behavior. I was hoping you would support our marriage because I believe that you care about my wife. Our marriage will not "work" if my wife does not stop committing infidelity."

The attorney told me it doesn't matter who files first, and I believe her. There's a computer formula used by the state that calculates it based on income. So whatever we file, it will still be the same.
I'll check with her again but she told me there's no rush.

Just reconfirmed with the attorney, she said there's absolutely no advantage to filing first. Financially or otherwise. That's all determined independently anyway. The only difference would be the venue and courthouse.
Otherwise people would be racing to the courthouses all day long, and the courts don't want that. They want people to work out their problems themselves.

What they mean is that: do you have savings/ any kind of cash she can get her hands on now as your wife without you knowing?

If yes, they want you to move it all into a private account and then file.
yes, what you will have to give her for support is computer based but numerous things happen when you file first:

1. You decide the entire pace of the divorce. Want it faster-done... slower.... done. YOU get the most control over that.
So lets say you finally want it done-you can file for the final trial and she can't postpone it as the petitioner is the only one who can (unless she can prove she is hospitalized or something)This will save you $$$ in lawyers fee's.

2. She could right now go get a million credit cards in her name and you will still be liable for half. She could go empty your savings-get into all your financial accounts and wipe you out. Too bad, nothing you can do.
SO if you go ahead and file it protects you from all the above. From the date of your filing- you have financial protection.

3. She can walk out with your son right now and move to another state- you could not even know where she is and the cops or anyone else won't help you because you are married.
If you filed after she did that- she would still have to be found. This could make your life really crazy and we have seen it done before on these boards.
A divorce puts all that to an end. She can't go and do anything stupid. (and lets face it-she is in the fog and isn't normal)Your CHILD would be protected.

So Other than a silly calculation of what you will have to pay her- everything is in your advantage to file first and coming from divorce care groups, I haven't found one person who didn't wish they would have or was thrilled they were the petitioner.

If you're not comfortable filing divorce first....file for legal separation to protect assets.

Filing first is also a statement. It shows her that you're not just going to roll over and let her have control. I think your lady needs a bit of a wake up call in terms of understanding that a divorce is not going to be pretty and she's not just going to get handed everything she wants. She needs a wake up call.

I've been here a long time and everyone who's gone through a divorce was urged to file first. I don't know why you're resisting this. Protect yourself and your son. Get out in front of this.

Excellent advice, print it out and put it on your fridge so that you have to read it every time you are hungry!

#1 I am not resisting to file but it is based on the advice of two attorneys I've talked to. I will check with my attorney again on the pace of divorce issue. She told me yesterday there is no advantage to being the petitioner, but I will ask her and her boss again. Also, maybe it's just in my state, but the other attorney I interviewed to told me the same thing, that there is no advantage in being the petitioner other than deciding the venue. And both attorneys in this case will bring it in the same venue so it doesn't matter. The one attorney that told me to file first turned out to be unscrupulous based on multiple reviews online...
#2 I thought about this but I don't think she can qualify for any credit cards without me cosigning. She makes $9K a year. She has one credit card in her name already and we've split it up.
#3 Not going to happen. She has never lived in another state, and she has led a pampered life. We both love our son so much she's not going to do that to him.
I have moved almost all liquid assets to my individual accounts where I'm the only signer. I think I am protected there, except for what the court may order as temporary maintenance for her. I have changed the direct deposit for my checks to my new accounts.

Throughout all this I am still being nice and cordial to my wife. It is so hard to do Plan A in the heat of the battle, but I keep telling her that we can work it out. I learned WW is planning to sign a lease later on this week nearby using her mom's savings. She was itemizing our son's expenses with her lawyer. She expects for me to be served next week. I get the feeling that my defensive measures really pissed her off and made her mind up to "move ahead" with filing, but I don't know how else I can protect myself.

Whether she files or not is regardless. You needed to take steps to protect your assets for you and your sons sake. Don't feel bad. She is going to use every excuse to make you the bad guy anyway. You taking this measure did not cause anything except bring about a reality she wasn't expecting.

You're doing good.

I found this while waiting for my attorney to respond. It ties to what both attorneys told me. There is no legal separation and her new apartment will be less than a mile from my house, so in the same county for sure.

Most experts hold, however, that there is little advantage to filing first, unless there has been legal separation resulting in different residences prior to divorce. Where spouses live in different counties of the state, attorneys may know the judge or know of slight biases in one county or the other. Also, there are travel considerations of the responding party to the county of filing.

Yes this is what my lawyer told me too. He was wrong as subsequent events proved.

What went wrong in your case?

I think what did not go wrong is a better question. He did not want to get divorced as he did not want to divide the marital assets. I was not especially worried as I had assets in my name. He appealed and appealed every single aspect of the divorce stretching out the action over six years. He has been found in Contempt of Court because he has still not divided the assets that were in his name and at this point has mostly spent them.

Recently he had to be escorted at gunpoint from the appellate court.

At the same time he brought a separate action to freeze the assets that were in my name and tried to force a division of them. We are three years into the mission on that and I cannot even bring myself to think about the legal fees I have paid. Six separate law suits.

Please stay in control. Oh and freeze your credit reports with all three agencies, it is free and will prevent her from using your credit rating. One of the many things my XH did was forge my signature on a document and help himself to savings that were half mine. Because we were still married at that point, I was never able to get a criminal prosecution.

Wow, your WH is a piece of work.

However, even with all that has gone on, I still want to give my marriage a chance. I do not want to divide the marital assets either as I'm hoping that WW will come to her senses and realize the mistake she is making. She will realize that POSOM is not moving here and she will realize it is all for naught. Am I being naive?

I have moved most of the assets already to protect myself.

Until WW comes to her senses, don't mistake her for the woman you think you know. Read what living_well wrote and substitute her name for yours, her WH name for your WW. Why not prevent that from happening?

Waywards are unreliable, you'd better take control.

Just heard back from my attorney. As expected, she reiterated that there is no advantage to rush out and file to be the Petitioner versus the Respondent. Either way will be the same for me.

This firm came highly recommended to me from another attorney who handled a friend's case in a different county. The senior attorney has been around 20 years and supposedly knows all 22 judges in the family courts. So I think their recommendation carries some weight...

XWH and yes he is.


There is a big difference between dividing assets (as in selling non liquid assets such as the marital residence) and protecting yourself as in preventing her from burning through savings or running up debt. I think keeping the house is a loving move and very much in keeping with plan A.

Putting assets out of her reach and freezing your credit reports are also loving acts. She may not see them that way now but one day she will. They are like exposure, short term she may kick back but one day she will understand.

Despite my trusting stupidity for the past 18 years, I did do one thing right. WW (and MIL indirectly) kept bugging me to set up a Living Trust for all of our assets but I kept putting it off. (I think deep down inside I always left it as the last bulwark in case of divorce). I spent some time and went through all my refinancing documents for the past 15 years and all of them are listed as "BH, A Married Man, as His Sole and Separate Property." Per the attorney this should allow me to keep the house and just have to pay WW a little bit for it!

All liquid assets are safely out of her reach, I've placed them in "safer" places that she can't get to either. I just put a couple months spending money in the joint accounts.

We have a lot of mutual funds and bonds though that I cannot easily liquidate without incurring significant tax liability, so I have to leave them in the account. However, I moved those to my Individual account as well. My attorney said these moves are all OK since nobody has filed yet.

That is precisely right. Do it all NOW before she files because once she does it's frozen. So go thru your accts with a fine tooth comb and make sure everything you can protect is out of her reach before a filing freezes it. Don't delay.

If you have any joint CC or cards she is an authorized signer on...remove her now.

Everything I can protect is already out of the joint accounts. I've even moved some to different financial institutions so they're not easily locatable. The funds and ETF's are harder to move though.

She's given me all the joint credit cards that were opened in my name, and I've given her the one she opened back. She was complaining to her mom she didn't know how much milk cost ($10 for two gallons!) I just wish we didn't have to go through all this waste if she were to come back eventually.

I know it really stinks. Better safe than sorry while she isn't thinking clearly.

It won't make a difference to your attorney, who files first. We used to have a poster here who was an expert on father's rights. He went through a hellish divorce and learned a lot along the way. You need to file first and trust the experience on this board when we recommend it.

You probably think it seems to aggressive and that it will kill the marriage. You have nothing to lose! She's already leaving and she will rake you over the coals to hell and back once she realizes what it's like to be on her own.

I don't get why you are resisting this except that you seem to believe that by NOT filing first, she'll love you more. Not true. You are setting yourself up for a world of (extra) hurt.

You don't seem to understand. *I'm* NOT resisting. I've been asking the attorney to see if I should file, pushing her even over the past couple days. She said no, there's no difference. I brought up all the points brought up by posters on this forum but she said those concerns don't matter in our county/state. Filing first to get the upper hand is a common fallacy, she said. She even knows the opposing counsel as they used to work in the same firm!
In any case, I've asked her to move up my initial consultation with the senior partner to tomorrow if possible so I can get in and ask him the questions. I've checked and he's got a 20 year track record and a great reputation, compared to the other divorce lawyers I've interviewed. These guys seem the most honest of the bunch. It has been very hard to find reputable divorce lawyers even though I have quite a few corporate lawyer friends. Very few people that went through it actually recommended their lawyers! They complained about the over-billing and slow response. One friend wasted 7 years fighting for extra custody which he never got, I'm not using his lawyer!
In any case, I've already got the filing forms and I've actually already filled them out myself. I'll bring them with me and can file the same day if he says GO.

You are resisting though. You don't ASK your attorney if you should file, you file. Its not your attorney's choice, its yours. Lawyers want an EASY divorce, not a contentious one.

I think you're assuming a lot. I spent 90 minutes today with the senior attorney analyzing everything logically. He's been doing this for over 20 years and his wife is one of the family court judges, so he is very knowledgeable. We went over all the pros and cons and basically he explained there is no advantage in rushing to the court first. Again, it is about venue and possibly the psychological edge. Makes zero difference in the financial outcome and temporary support.

He is perfectly willing to file the case tomorrow if I wanted but said it will just cost more money up front.

He gave me an interesting proposal for WW so I am running it by her now, to keep the legal costs down.

What was the proposal, Lost?

Give her an offer for a lower amount than the support the computer program would have given in exchange for money up front, and give her the first and last month's rent. She would get those anyway if the judge hears the case she is preparing to file next week, based on the formula. In return, slow down the filing of the divorce and see if we can work through our problems and reconcile.

He said pretty much the same thing you said, Melody. WW is in an angry haze and so am I, we're clouded by emotions. Some time apart may be helpful for us to really assess the situation. WW is already getting wind of cold reality as I've been passing her bills to her. Even with my support, she will need to crimp her style.

He has his doubts whether WW and I can ever reconcile. He gave an analogy of heart attack patients who continue to smoke, even though their doctors tell them it will kill them. While I'm not as pessimistic as he is, it does give me pause about how likely WW is going to truly come around.

I proposed it to WW and she was quite shocked and surprised. She's going to talk to her lawyer and we'll see if we can work this part out. In our state, the financials are pretty much formula driven so all the lawyering won't move the dollars much, one side or the other. It will just move them into the lawyers' pockets if we file motions back and forth in bitterness. He said his son already graduated from college so he would rather see the money used for my son's college.

I received a comforting email from WW's best friend from high school. WW has continually blocked her off since the Exposure, afraid to listen to the truth. Her email was sympathetic toward me and she gave an example of a friend of hers who was also betrayed by his wife but was later able to find another woman and now they have fantastic marriage. I encouraged her to continue to try to reach out to WW.

Still, I feel so down today. I am angry because I feel everything is so unfair. I'm the one that was betrayed yet WW is making me to be "the bad guy." The worst part is she got people like MIL and her cousin to buy it!

I was not perfect but I am not the Devil. I did so many things right, am a loving father to my son, made many sacrifices so we can live in comfort. In return, I received betrayal and rejection! Even when I make a good-faith effort to be amicable about the separation, I'm dealt with harshness and suspicion. Where is the justice in this world? Why am I the one being punished?!?

Sorry to hear this is so hard, Lost. We understand how devastating this can be. Just know it won't always be like this.

Did your wife decide to take you up on your offer?

The answer to that question is pretty simple. Your WW knows that the best defense is a good offense.

Unfortunately, as I expected, she didn't go for it. She talked to her lawyer and she wants to still file the case. She wants me to give her the lump sum directly, instead of to the landlord. And also she wants me to give her a custody schedule in writing.

You're right. I was playing a good offense when I started the Exposure process. I had her cornered but I underestimated her deceitfulness and overestimated her sense of fairness.

It's not fun now that I have to play defense. Unfortunately in my liberal state, the man is always exposed. I have the higher earning so everything is going to get peeled off me, instead of the other way around. It's terrible.

She wants me to give her the lump sum directly, instead of to the landlord. - Never give a wayward money!!

I had her cornered but I underestimated her deceitfulness and overestimated her sense of fairness. -Classic mistake we all made. Now you know, so don't let that happen anymore. There are books published on how to take advantage and use every dirty trick to punish the husband in a divorce situation(my ex-crazy a$$ wife had 2 and she used them). Probably written by attorneys-LOL.

Unfortunately, you are stuck in defense mode i believe.

Yes, that's why the attorney and I were trying to get ahead of the game. But WW may be planning to file a Request for an Immediate Hearing which will push me to give her the funds anyway.

Our system sucks.

One of my original Exposure targets, a college friend of WW, has been setting up lunch dates with WW, only to have WW make excuses each time and break them. I got in touch with her and found she was very determined to help us though, so I gave helped her "surprise" WW by coming to our house without letting WW know. She ended up talking to WW for five hours a couple nights ago to the wee hours of the morning.

WW admitted to her friend that what she did to me was wrong. She said she had a lot of this bottled up in her even before we got married. She had doubts about marrying me but went through with it anyway, and then had a child seven years later. Her friend asked her, why did you stay married for 17 years then???

WW told her friend that the affair was just Emotional and not Physical. There is no chance because OM has to stay overseas and she has to stay here for DS. She told WW she should do some counseling, even on her own, to fix her own issues. When she told WW that whatever she do, she must not contact OM any more, WW stayed silent.

WW's friend told me she sense WW is very conflicted and confused about where she is right now. She is definitely clouded by the affair but also her own anger and shame from my Exposure. She vacillates between leaving and staying. WW agreed with her that I'm not "a bad person and a very good provider and father to our son."

But WW's pride is not letting her back down when she talks to me. WW is still pushing on the custody and divorce front. I restated the offer to pay the rent directly to the landlord, and compromised on the 50/50 custody split. She has not confirmed the apartment (but is very close). She wants some moving expenses but I told her I'll pay the apartment directly.

I asked her about the counseling. She said she might be open to that "later," and if she did that, she will do it "on her own." I was trying to see if I can get Steve Harley to do it with us but she rejected that. She must hate being judged for being her true self and pierced through the lies.

My question to the forum now is, how do I Plan A since she will move out imminently (maybe next week?) We won't even see each other except for custody exchanges and baseball games.

Do you think there is any hope for Plan A for us? Or am I a fool and should just cut my losses and move on, like most of my friends told me? Part of me wants to believe that my marriage can still be saved, but the other part is facing cold reality in that this is the second betrayal for the same OM. Her friend told WW that I must love WW a lot because she would have tossed her a** on the street the first time around!

I think you have nothing to lose by hanging in there and executing a great Plan A for the next several months. I think it will start making a difference when she moves out because reality will intrude on her little fantasy. When she gets out she will realize what a fool she has been to bust up a good marriage for a big fat nothing. I honestly think moving out will be the only thing that can wake her up because this fantasy has been so persistent and so long term.

You have nothing to lose. Give it a great Plan A for several months. If nothing changes, then go into a dark Plan B and perhaps move the divorce along.

Question is, how do I do a great Plan A when she won't even be around for me to talk to? It was hard enough to do under the same roof to do Plan A, when she's gone... I guess I need to cross that bridge when I get there...

The other thing that her friend said is that she might actually like being "free" so much, still get my support $, and half my assets that she is happier without me, and carries on with OM telephonically. That is really the worst case scenario for me.

One other question: If I am going to try to do a Plan A during the separation, how should I handle talking to other people that were not Exposure targets? E.g. our son's friends' parents, teachers, etc. People who really won't be able to help with our marriage, casual acquaintances, etc. I'm sure WW will be extremely mad if I told them the true reason for separation. Should I just leave it vague? Or tell them the truth as well, "WW was having an affair with her ex-boyfriend so she moved out after 17 years of marriage"??

You do your best when she does reach out to you. And I assure you there will be opportunities. You can also reach out to her occasionally.


If that happens, and it may, then you are better off without her. And I do know of a marriage that ended that very way. The wife ended a 30+ year marriage over a PHONE affair with a married man.

Thanks. How about the last part of my question, how to talk to acquaintances about it?

Absolutely, they should be told the truth. These are people who have a direct impact on your son's life and they should know so they can support him. You have nothing to hide. Sure, you don't need to advertise it in the local newspaper, but there is no reason to keep it a secret [or be vague] with people who interact with you and your son.

In fact, I would make it a point to meet with your son's teacher and tell her about the separation and the affair. Your son will likely go through an adjustment period and his teacher needs to know the truth.

Let me reiterate, Lost, that a "great Plan A" does NOT mean you attempt to have heart-to-heart talks with WW, or get her to admit she "misses you" or the "way things used to be" or anything of the sort.

Plan A is for YOU to meet as many of her EN's as she will let you. If it means fixing the broken porch light she asked you to do 5 years ago, do it! If it means picking up your dirty socks, do it....

Just be the best option (as a partner) that you can be. It'll make her think twice when she IS out on her own (or with OM), about how you do take care of the little things around the house, or how good you are with your son, etc.

Get it?

Thanks. I expected that was going to be the suggestion but I think you are right. Even though it will be awkward, I really have nothing to hide. Her college friend confirmed to me today that she felt I didn't do anything wrong and WW is the one who messed up. Even all the revisionist stories about how mean and condescending I was could not hide the fact that she was the one who had the affair.

Do you think I should wait until she moves out to do this? I'm just wondering when to trigger this inevitable conflict. I know this was one of the big taboos for WW, my MIL, and her cousin, i.e. all the Enablers. They claim I'm just out to "embarrass" WW by "airing dirty laundry." They told WW she doesn't have to worry because she's not a "celebrity." Ha.

WW was all afraid to know whom I Exposed her affair to, and wouldn't go to events and parties where people would know. I guess now that the cat (will be) let out of the bag, I might as well tell everyone who cares about it who interacts with WW.

Got it. I've already been doing these things for a couple months so it won't be a stretch. She readily admits to people how good of a father and provider I am to the family. I just hope she can see what I am doing when separated.

Funny thing is I've dropped 15 pounds since D-Day, mostly because of stress and not sleeping well. I'm just a few more pounds to trim down to the ideal weight that WW wanted me to get to. I fit in my jeans from ten years ago now! I assure you though, this is the most painful way to lose weight that I know of.

I lost 37lbs the hard way too...use it as a springboard to where you want to be and use your new found slim trim n racy look to be confident and carefree around WW!

You plan A any way you can.

Son's games, you and she is there you plan A. Tell son great game lets all go to lunch.

At son's game you tell WW son needs new pants, or a shirt, or whatever would she like to go to the mall with you, maybe include is she due for a new pair of sneakers lets go.

At son's game you bring up how son wants to see the new movie, you heard it was good would she want to join.

Another game, son never been to the zoo, or it has been awhile and now he wants to go again, lets all go/would you like to join us.

Be creative. You know WW heard about wood fire oven pizza and wanted to try tasting some, well you found out one just opened up that is not to far to make a day trip. If she says no take your son. Have son show mom some selfies with the pizza the oven. Get her to see what she is missing. You need to get her to miss you and her family life before she realizes what she is missing out on.

I would wait until she moves out and then contact the teacher and let her know. She will need to know so she can help your son if he needs help. When you mention the separation affiliated with your family, you can mention the affair.


Isn't it interesting that her enablers don't like exposure at all? [because enablers tell people what they want to hear ] And those who are not enablers support your position? Your wife, just like a typical wayward, surrounds herself with enablers and avoids true friends like the college friend. She is the true friend!

She is planning to move out this weekend :-(
She's set up the proposal for 50/50 custody.
I am so upset at this whole thing, it's hard for me to hold it together.

I know this is upsetting, but you must remain calm. While this is scary, this may be the only way your wife can wake up from this long romantic fantasy. That might be the only chance you have so please be calm and try to contain your emotions.

You are right as usual, and I knew this was coming for weeks, but still. It is so hard. I cannot but be emotional and upset. It's so hard to think clearly right now.

Well, I was served this morning. Forwarded the paperwork to my attorney. Her petition asked for full custody and giving me only visitation rights, but my attorney said not to worry about that.

She is planning to move out this weekend.

Once she is moved out, should I change the locks? Is that within my rights? I don't want to come home and find things missing.

What is her plan for furniture, etc? I would sure not let her take any property - other than personal effects - without a court order. If you think she will do that, I would most definitely change the locks. You don't want her to disrupt your home for you and your home for what is probably going to be a temporary arrangement.

She hasn't told me, but she mentioned the place is furnished. I saw a receipt from BestBuy for a delivery... Probably a TV or PC for DS? You can imagine we have a lot of stuff together after 18 years.

What I don't want to do is to facilitate her move and make her life easy on her own, which will get in the way of me doing Plan A. E.g. she can run back and do her laundry and get TP and other supplies from the home, enjoy all of the conveniences of our marital home yet avoid marital life.

I read up a little and it seems that it will be tough to keep her out. I can change the lock but she can just get a locksmith to let her in since we are still married. I'm checking with my attorney.

I would not allow her to take furniture, etc, but coming there to do her laundry and stuff actually works to your benefit. You want her to miss all the comforts of home. She should purchase all her own supplies, though

Focus on ways to make your home a very attractive place. For example, if she is coming ot do laundry, cook a special dinner and have your son in the kitchen helping you cook.

You could also repaint and re-decorate a few rooms!!

Also, it is not hard at all to change your locks. Hundreds of people have done it here over the years. You can do that and keep her out. You don't need to consult a lawyer to do it and I would caution you about getting too legalistic here. A lawyer will always tell you NO you can't do anything because they want more than anything to give an appearance of amicability, whether that is in your interest or not..

n my 15 years here, only ONE wayward spouse has actually gone to the trouble of bypassing the changed locks. ONE out of hundreds. A couple have encountered the changed locks and had their lawyer contact the BS lawyer. The only outcome was an offer to give the WS anything she needed in the home.

Surprisingly, my attorney said it is fine to change the locks. First let her move out completely, then let her know that I'll be changing the lock and then do it. Give her an opportunity to take anything that belongs to her out first.

Also, he told me to archive all records and store away locked or in a safe off-site place. I've scanned them all into the cloud already but some of the mortgage documents were very bulky. So I'll need to find somewhere to store the hard copies.

I changed my locks in November, without telling my WW. Your wayward probably wont bother with a locksmith... my wife broke out a window to get in the house.

Her attorney has whined and whined about how "The defendant has changed the locks to the martial home, without providing my client a key to the home. The defendant should provide my client with a key to the martial property blah blah"

My attorney has said "If she is not in the martial home, then she does not need a key."

My situation - my wife was living with a friend with about 50% of her belongings in the house for about 4 weeks, then I changed the locks, then she broke out the window to take more things, with about 5% of her stuff left in the house she moved to the State OM lives in... I threw away most of her remaining 5%.

*Her attorney has said "My client left some Longenberger baskets and other home decor she wants from the home." uMMM... I may have thrown it all away...hah

In summary - changing the locks is pretty harmless to you if you can stomach the idea.

Lost, I think that is great that your attorney supports the idea, but I would not warn your spouse in advance. That is just inviting trouble. Change them first and then tell your spouse. That way if she objects, the deed will already have been done.

100% agree and when you do tell her, no need to explain why you did it. Just tell her the locks were changed.

We discussed finances this morning. The court is probably going to order me to give her support soon, but in the meantime she feels she doesn't have to pay certain expenses. For example, her health insurance, which we set up individually since her job has no coverage (and is a lot cheaper than adding to my policy). I talked to my attorney about this and she said WW definitely needs to pay for it, since it wasn't on my policy.

I feel angry because it sure seems like she wants to have her cake and eat it too (me paying for things while she goes off on her own). She also didn't want to pay for some grocery she bought for DS and us because she felt it should come out of the community account.

Overall these things are not a big deal but if I want to do a good Plan A, should I be the "bigger man" and just pay them? (And say, see, if we work things out I'll take care of things?) It's like changing the lock, it will definitely be a Love Buster for her. What do you guys think?

When I talk about these things with her, a part of me feels that she is so far down the line that Divorce is inevitable. But part of me is still hoping that after she moves out it will be very different for her... I'm very confused now.

Many ways to play it-
Always remember, -Never agree to anything, because they always want more. You are experiencing the never ending entitlement of a wayward. If it is wrong, just say no thank you calmly and change the subject. You are going to make her mad regardless.

I would change the subject and ask about going to a movie or dinner, if you are still in Plan A. Maybe say something like, "O' honey, that is a matter for the attorneys, i want to talk about our marriage."

My WW turned into a freeloader, she wants all the benefits of being married but none of the responsibles.

The stories are always the same from what I have read.

She even asked the court I be kicked out of my apartment with a RO pay all the bills plus 1500 for child support. And I would only see the kids every other weekend.

She got a job after the affair working swing. I work a 8am to 6pm job. She did not want me to watch them at night.

So I hate to say watch your back.

Oh, my WW is only going along with things to make the court happy. I have this feeling that in the end shes going to win and get what she wants. She keeps telling me there not my kids there her kids. I have no right to them.

The mind of a WW will never cease to amaze me.

What can I do as a BH to stop this? It is very sad, a few months ago I felt WW was my best friend in life, now I have to watch my back constantly.
As the high earner and man, I feel the deck is stacked against me. It seems like I may be doomed to lead the life of a slave if we do get divorced, a terrible prospect.

It depends. If she wants to buy groceries for your home, then you can pay it. But if she wants you to pay for her insurance or for curtains for her new apartment, you shouldn't pay for that. Facilitating her marriage wrecking behavior in any way is not good for your marriage so you shouldn't finance it. It is in the best interest of you and your marriage for her to fund everything involved in her little plan.

Changing the locks falls into that category. You don't want her coming in and damaging your home, taking property, etc.

Dr Harley does not advocate doing anything that would harm your marriage or your finances just to appease a drunken wayward.


I know you will hate to hear this, but I think her moving out is the best thing htat has happened to your marriage in a very long time. I only say this because I believe she has been fogged out for a very long time on the high of a long distance fantasy affair. I think moving out might give you a chance to save this.

I just got an email from her attorney through my attorney. The claws are coming out. She is asking for an advance or will go to a judge to get stipulation, as well as the support payments. It's terrible because I did such a great job with our assets and investing it's easy for her to just carve it up now.

I have no problem paying for the expenses. But like you said, I have a problem facilitating her leaving. But it looks like I'll just have to hand over the money.

I am steadily losing faith in WW. When she first mentioned separation, she told me she wasn't interested in my money or house, I can keep them, etc. But now I can see what is coming down the road, and I am sure it is going to get ugly. She will take half of what I built up over 20 years and live large without me around!

Id tell your attorney to let her go to a judge. I highly doubt a judge is going to say that you need to fund her moving out. Besides, getting you to agree to an advance ahead of any court order could just look like you giving her a gift and then you'd just have to pay her MORE.

Ask for atty fees as well since SHE is filing.

Not that simple. Going to be by income test so it'll eventually come out of the division of the assets, if the divorce goes through.

I had some drinks with my best friend and his brother. The brother went through a Jerry Springer-type divorce so he had some words of wisdom for me. (His D-Day was because of a speeding ticket photo of his WW with another man in a different state mailed to his home). He thinks I should just go to Plan B and be done with it.

He tried Plan A for months and got strung along for a lot of money and heartache. He bent over backwards for her, helped her repair her car, fix her computer, etc. throughout all this time. She even fooled him into buying another house in another state, and she ended up with custody of the kids and the OM in the house with her. Certifiable worst case scenario. Of course the OM left after a few months as predicted by Dr. Harley. Needless to say, I'm not using his lawyer.

He thinks the sooner I detach, the more attractive I will be to WW, and if she is going to come back, she would. Trying to do Plan A, being helpful and a good husband, will just end up being the doormat that is thrown out when the divorce is final. He has not been educated in MB so I told him he probably didn't do all the right steps in Plan A. But his results are quite discouraging.

Don't be discouraged. Every situation is different with different people and personalities. Stick to plan A until she moves out and then go dark with the plan B letter to her beforehand.

Very true. My WW is not his FWW. (Although I knew her, never knew the whole story, and how ska**y she is!) "Your mileage may vary." What Melody Lane and my attorney said is good advice. Getting WW out of the house should improve my mental health and my stress level.

It was good to talk to a fellow BH though, as my best friend is well meaning but he doesn't really understand what I am going through. His brother nailed it right away. It's helpful now that I've talked to two BH's that I personally know. The other friend was able to recover his marriage but he and his FWW didn't have kids then, which complicates things a lot.

I think it's normal to view you wayward as skanky. I know my respect level for my WH is non existent because of the A....AND the level of nastiness the OW is...he stooped into the gutter world. It grosses me out.

Actually I meant my friend's brother's wayward ex-wife, not my WW... His stories about her make my WW seem like a prude!

But the nastiness coming out of my WW is still very disheartening. Looking back it has been building up in the past couple years. She really stopped trying to cook nice meals for us and keep the house neat and organized a while ago. I should have done something about it much earlier! Ah, hindsight is 20/20.

He was in Plan "A" for a**kissing, which is not what we recommend. We do not recommend that men facilitate the affair or do stupid things. Our plan is much more strategic. Exposing the affair, being careful with your assets and doing things like fixing her computer, etc, makes you look better than the OM. Never do we recommend that you facilitate the affair like your friend did.


This is because that is how a MAN would react if his wife "detached." That is not how women react. Women are turned off by the detachment and move further away. It is a turn off to a woman to chase a man.

Your friend is describing how HE would behave if a woman did that to him. But he is not a woman.


We are a little more strategic than your friend. What he did was not Plan A. He has a history of ONE case. I have been here for 15 years and have seen about 50% of these situations result in reconciliation. There are no guarantees, but you do have a chance. You don't have any chance at all if you just give up.

Oh no. He should not go into Plan B for months.

Some of this is very effective. For example, repairing her car [not paying for it!!] and fixing her computer actually makes you look good and OM look bad. He can't do those things for her. Lets say she asks for help fixing her computer and you say "hell no, fix it yourself." That just makes the OM look like the nice guy because he sympathizes with her. But if you fix the computer and are very kind and attractive, you give her second thoughts and make the OM look worse. The goal is to make you look like the most attractive option while you do everything in your power to ruin her affair. And you have done everything you could to wreck her affair.

One of the things that will surely be coming up is she'll need internet, computer, TV, and everything set up at her apartment, so DS can do his homework on his nights there. If asked, I should cheerfully do it for her right? Even though it is facilitating her separation from me?

That is something you can do that will not only make you look good, but will cost you nothing. It also gives you more time to be around her. That is an opportunity for YOU that can be done without hurting yourself. This helps you. I would not go as far as helping her move, and certainly not giving her any money unless you are forced, but hooking up internet, etc, benefits YOU.

I talked to my attorney and he said to go ahead and give her the $5K advance so she can move out. No sense in increasing animosity and court costs (several $K possibly) and the judge will give her the cash anyway.

Thanks for the advice.
Everything is so counterintuitive in my life right now, ugh.

My Valentine's flowers have been delivered to our house. Hopefully she will like them.

Think this over again.

I dont agree with your attorney. Giving a wayward money is NEVER a good thing. He is taking the easy way out. It makes no sense to me. There is nothing to prevent her from giving to the OM, going to the casino or whatever, and then what happens at court, you have to pay again. They cannot be trusted with money, especially a large sum like that. NO WAY!

Facilitating a move out is not really part of the plan if you want her to stay.

I would re-think these items.

Iwould wait for the ordered support. Otherwise' you are giving her $2500 you dont have to.

I'll probably spend $3,000 to litigate it and still lose. Sorry, the laws are stacked against men, especially in my liberal state. I'll just follow Melody's advice and let her move out.

Why would you litigate? She needs to submit finanial rrngements as a part of the divorce. IIWY, i would want every penny I gave her to count toward the final settlement. Im not saying fight over it, im saying get legal credit for the payment

And the law is stacked against the higher earner, whatever their gender. I would have to give my H a ton of money if we were divorciing. (It is just usually the man.)

So if you give her $5K now, before a court divides up your assets, what insurance do you have that the $5K will even be acknowledged by the court? When they divide your assets, won't they look at the money you currently have between you and divvy that up however they do? So won't she get the $5K from you now, and then just as much as she would have gotten regardless later?

And why would this cost more in legal fees? Don't you have to go to court and use lawyers for the divorce and division of property regardless? Is she going to take you to court for $5K to move NOW before the divorce so that it's extra work for the lawyers?

To me, handing a wayward $5K seems crazy. Of course, I am not a lawyer, but why isn't she handing you $5K for mortgage payments or whatever since she's leaving you alone with the house? I understand you're the primary bread winner but I would be sure to ask your attorney if you just hand over $5K now, what's to stop her from getting that same $5K (plus more) again during the settlement?

I wanted to explain my thoughts about his paying the $5000 moving money to his wife. Typically, we tell people not to give any money unless court ordered and I even told Lost that very thing earlier. However, the reason behind that advice is because it is essentially facilitating the affair which is bad for the marriage. Keep in mind, though, that the goal here is to do what is best for the marriage, not necessarily to abide by a particular tactic.

That being said, it is my view that the best thing for his marriage is for her to move out. In almost every other case, it is just the opposite, so it would not be a good idea to give the WS money to move out. In this case, I think her moving out and living on her own will be the best chance at waking up her fog. Her affair is 12+ years long and has been sustained long distance by a powerful fantasy. It will take quite a bit to kill that fantasy and I think moving out might kill it, if anything can.

I hope that once she moves out that reality will finally ruin her affair when she has to fend for herself. She will see that her little long distance "love affair" is not enough to sustain her and will fall short.

I feel strongly that after she is out, he should not pay anything unless it is court ordered.

Anyway, that is why I am not saying anything about this payment to get her moved out.

Because I have a lot more than $5K in cash in the bank. If she goes to the court, they will order me to hand over half of it (typically the recommendation is to move half the cash to my account, but I moved pretty much all of it).

My check was given to her as an "advance" on any payments. Based on our state's computer program, I'll have to give her ~$5K a month for support. The $5K has been documented by both attorneys and the check as an advance. Believe me, we have a lot more than $5K to fight over if it ends up in divorce!

I know it's hard for you guys from more conservative states to understand but it's really futile to try to fight this. I've talked to three divorce attorneys and they both came up with basically the same numbers.

The cards are really stacked against men in our state, and as the high earner, I'm doubly screwed. It's a "no-fault" state so nothing will really change the math. Every dollar that was earned during our marriage, she is entitled to 50 cents. Unless I somehow was able to keep it separate, like I was very careful with my house and also several investment accounts that predate our marriage. But otherwise, I am screwed.

The POSOM already said in so many words that he is not really interested in her. So I think it will hit her smack in the head once she does move out that he's not going to move 16 time zones here. Because if she does leave, she will lose everything.

My worry, however, is that once she gets a taste of the amount of money that she will receive, she may say, hey, I need neither POSOM nor Lost, I can have a grand old time by myself with all the freedom and none of the hassle of being married. This is what is dysfunctional about having to pay support (alimony). The judge may give her a year to get a real full time job, but in the meantime she can live high using my support.

And you just need to make sure she doesn't view marriage as a "hassle." That is the goal of Plan A. Most women are much happier being married than single.

We are spending this entire President's weekend at a baseball tournament, so we are interacting with each other whether WW likes it or not. The more I thought about this, all of her recent actions are because she is upset at Exposure and being embarrassed about it. She confided this to her friend, she is angry and confused. The POSOM already said, "I wish I can be there with you but I have my family obligations here." He's not going to leave his business to move here. So she knows that it is just a fantasy.

But she refuses to open up and talk to me. It is like the Cold War nuclear war escalation, ending in Mutually Assured Destruction with the divorce. She wants to get back at me for the Exposure, and also what she perceives as Disrespectful Judgment on my part throughout our marriage, which I have acknowledged to her.

She already told her friends and relatives that she needs try to be independent and fail if necessary on her own (she has never lived on her own in 47 years, the day we got married she moved from her parents' place to my house). Having said that, it is very hard for her to back down given the story she has told others about me. Also there are the Enablers around her, POSOM, and her attorney that is goading her on with tactical steps against me in the divorce.

I don't know if there going to be enough meaningful interaction between us to overcome all of these things working against our marriage. The more I learn about the divorce process and procedures, the more I realize they will lead to a divorce. All of the negotiations for custody, division of property, support, etc. just create antagonism between us. Whether I talk to her directly or go through an attorney, it doesn't matter. It will just make us enemies.

During this weekend we were civil but I can feel her resentment constantly toward me. But in front of the rest of the team we seem fine, just the perfect doting parents. We had lunch and dinner together and I can feel her appreciation for my presence in her and our son's lives. But still I can feel she is not going to give up the negativity and pride contributing to the demise of our marriage. Sigh.

I think you just need to stay the Plan A course. You're doing great! Fake it til you make it. I know what you mean too as my WH needs to stay his course as well just to prove that HE is right. Doing anything else would mean having to admit fault. It's part of the fog.

People who are in a fog, don't realize they are in a fog. Until reality intrudes. So no, I don't agree she knows she is living out a fantasy. You can tell someone is in a fog when they make irrational decisions, as she is doing. Her actions make no sense and will only lead to heartbreak, yet she pushes forward. She remains in the fog because she is still in contact with the OM..


Anger over exposure is due to the FOG. Fog is maintained by continued contact wiht the OM.

And what do you mean by "she perceives as Disrespectful Judgment on my part throughout our marriage?"

What does that mean EXACTLY? What did you do that gave her that perception? Another thing I find concerning is that you talk about her getting free of you and viewing marriage as a hassle. Does she feel controlled by you over the course of your marriage?


Just so you know, about EVERY SINGLE husband who comes on here tells us his wife is too stubborn to back down. However, if she decided to come back, wild horses would not stop her.


That is because you have never been through this. When she moves out and her affair starts crumbling and reality intrudes, you will be sitting there with your hand out as the most appealing, attractive option. She may begin to respond but it will take time and patience. You will need to look for opportunities. One excellent opportunity is to talk to her when she calls. Make sure you are always as pleasant as possible. The OM has kept her on the string for years by being a great conversationalist from afar. You can do that too.


This is why you shouldn't be discussing any of this with her. Let your attorneys do that and make your communications as pleasant as possible. If she brings it up, just say you would rather the attorneys deal with all that unpleasant stuff.

But she has "freedom" now so I am puzzled by this comment. Why would she have more freedom as a single woman?

The Disrespectful Judgment are from my frequent sarcastic remarks about things, not necessarily toward her. Sometimes she would join in judgment about others, but now she says I said the mean things. For example, there were some math problems that my DS and I were working on. Sometimes when I'm not home he would ask WW but she wouldn't know the answer. Sometimes DS and I would make some callous remarks about how she is not good at math, or academics in general.

Also, she likes to control both DS and myself a lot, getting into that "nagging" stage. If either of us dripped something on our glass dining table, she would freak out. One time she was really nagging DS so I told her, "You know, you are coming on as a very overbearing mom." It was kind of a joke from a story my sister told us, as she got that word on her performance review at work and she was totally offended by it. WW and I laughed about it that time, but when I said it about WW, she was upset but she didn't say anything. After all the A came out she sited this as one of the reasons we are not compatible.

Now that I look back on it it is very hurtful and I never should have done that. I told her I will change my behavior but she said people never change. The biggest part about this is she kept everything bottled up, even to all her friends. She never told anyone (except POSOM) any of the problems she had with me. So when she now gives these examples to her friends, they agree with me that they are small problems that added up because she internalized it and hated me for them. However, both DS and I were in the dark as to her true feelings, as she never expressed anger on these items.

As to the "controlling," it really is not until after D-Day, when I put in place all of the countermeasures such as tracking and phone spying. Her college friend told her that she should expect that, after what she had done. But she said she can't breathe with me looking at everything! But other than after D-Day, I never "controlled" her. I basically let her do what she wanted, she went from working 40 hours a week down to 30 then now to 15 hours. She was having problems at her previous job with her new boss, but I told her to stick with it since she's been at that place for 15 years. I gave her suggestions to discuss them with her boss or other people on the board, but she never did. In the end, she decided to quit but she now blames me for telling her to stay there and making her miserable.

I did tell she should have a job since we have after school programs for DS. She now tells me that she felt pressured to keep her job. I told her she should quit if she doesn't want to work, but now that she wants to get a D she needs the job.

Otherwise, I never kept tabs on her, and she had our credit card and bought whatever she wanted to buy. She is pretty responsible overall, but once in a while I would see how many handbag she had accumulated and make a remark. She gets mad and would say, I work too so I can spend what I want. So I generally just leave it alone, thinking it would buy us peace.

What she is thinking by "freedom" is freedom from my "spying" and also the fact that I am a constant reminder that she cannot contact POSOM. Even though he is not going to be there for him, from what her college friend said, he was her first "true love" and she just keep going back to that ideal, forgetting that he forsook her and got married to someone else after his family rejected her.

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like you understand you made some mistakes, and probably some of this is exaggerated by her. The "controlling" issue over spying on her falls into that category.

This is very disrespectful:
A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. IT is not "nagging" to tell you something bothers her. you might not like hearing about it, but the alternative is worse. It is like getting a NSF notice from the bank. It is no fun to get it, but not getting it is worse. It is a huge lovebuster to accuse a spouse of "nagging" when she tells you something bothers her. I hope you understand that now.

Do you have the book Lovebusters? My suggestion would be to get it and read through it to make sure you are not doing things that further harm her feelings about you. The book was a huge eye opener to both my H and I because we were unwittingly making many mistakes.

This "freedom" will likely lead to the death of her fantasy. Affairs thrive on secrecy, but that will all be gone when she moves out.

Yes, I fully understand my mistakes now. I admitted them to her, but she is in no mood to hear them, nor any of the MB concepts or anything to do with relationships. I have also read SAA and HNHN. I have the Lovebusters book and have read the first two chapters.

However, the daily storms and surprises over the past few weeks have made me so discouraged that I stopped reading LB and was reading all the material and books on divorce strategy instead. It is like walking a tightrope trying to Plan A while defending against divorce attacks from WW and her Enablers.

By the way, the $5K I gave her was not going to make or break her move out. I found out that she already got a loan from my MIL for $6K to help her move. That was how she was able to sign the lease for the apartment and gave the deposit and rent.

So the $5K will simply allow her to pay back my MIL and avoid having to go to court for something I will surely lose. Also, if we do reconcile I will probably have better relationship with MIL. That was the attorney's advice as well, she wouldn't be able to use that against me, that I was trying to "starve" her into submission.

I am not concerned in the least about you trying to teach her about Marriage Builders, but that you are not COMMITTING lovebusters. I don't want you to make the situation worse. That is why you need to read that book. Because if you are committing lovebusters, it greatly harms any chances you have. You need to be very strategic here with a 2 faceted approach that focuses on:

1. being as attractive as possible. Offering her a safe, attractive place to land. That means eliminating all lovebusters. [your "nagging" comment above is worrisome because it reveals a level of disrespect]

2. protecting yourself legally

You can't do just one and not the other, you need to focus on both. Let the lawyers do the legal stuff and you stay out of it.

In general, it is not a good idea to cooperate with someone whose goal it is to destroy your marriage and wipe you out financially. She is in the fog, and what will wake her up is a cold splash of reality. I hope this gesture is not a sign of what is to come, because you will just end up with a destroyed marriage and a greatly minimized net worth if your lawyer does not start fighting for you. You and your lawyer should make her work for everything, rather than just handing it over to a fogged out wayward.

Attorneys have a tendency to want to roll over to appear "amicable" so they can facilitate an easy divorce. His goal is to get a divorce. PERIOD. He has no earthly concept of the fog and as such, tends to think that your wife will be "reasonable" if you appear "reasonable." That is like telling a woman to just lay there while she is raped, as if this will cause the rapist to become a reasonable person. His approach to your wife tells me he doesn't understand her mentality.

Your lawyer said that you should just hand it over instead of having to go to court and waste $3000 to get it anyway. Well, guess what? She doesn't want to go to that trouble either and likely WON'T if challenged. But handing it over to avoid conflict just emboldens her. And most importantly, does nothing to alleviate her fog.

That's the tough part about all of this. If I can't trust my attorney, who can I trust? Sure, I can run up the legal bills by fighting every little move WW makes. But I'm pretty sure he is right about the state formula for calculating support and assets, I've heard it from multiple people. My attorney was recommended to me as an "aggressive" attorney that will fight for rights. But he told me that if you appear unreasonable to the judge, you will lose out in the end. He seems to have a pretty good reputation from what I can gather in his 20 years doing this.

I read two more chapters in LB. I'm just trying to imagine how I can avoid LB's in the divorce situation. I can let the attorneys deal with the details but in the end she's still going to get mad from the maneuvers.

Absolutely you can trust your attorney. To pursue his objective, which is an easy, conflict free divorce.


We are not suggesting that you "fight" every little move, but that you don't surrender everything in advance. TRy and drag this all out so that hopefully her fog wears off before you are divorced. Don't be like the French by pre-emptively surrendering at the gates of Paris. Rushing in waving a white flags benefits you in no way. Rather, make her WORK for every little thing. The more you roll over, the faster and easier the divorce will be. The more you cooperate the more likely you will be divorced before her fog wears off.


And I believe you. But keep in mind, his goal is different from yours. I am sure he is very successful in obtaining divorces for people. WE are focused on you having the best chance for your marriage.


What you should do is avoid lovebusters. I don't get the sense you understand what that means. A lovebuster is about YOUR BEHAVIOR. These are lovebusters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

You do not have to commit a single lovebuster in the process of a divorce. Which lovebuster did you feel you have to employ in pursuit of a divorce?

In other words, an "amicable" divorce, where you roll over and surrender, is the dream of attorneys and court bureaucrats. But ask yourself at every turn if it is in your best interest and the best interest of your marriage. Your goal is to try and stay married; his goal is to get you divorced.

One bit of advice I got was to first explain to your attorney you objectives - that talk went like this for me:

Atty - "What is your goal? Do you want the house? etc"
Me - "I want to delay this as much as possible and try to let my marriage have a chance to recover after her affair ends."

Second bit of advice, Always ask your attorney the real drop dead due date of items. Example, my wife submitted a Production of Documents in January, with a due date of Jan.31st to the court... I asked my attorney "How long can I wait to complete that before the court gets really upset?" he answered "You can wait 30 days." So there I just gained about 30 days of time into my case.

I hate the divorce game and I really hate talking to my attorney and especially hearing what my WW's atty has to say. I understand it can be troubling - just try to remember what you are trying to accomplish.

I was thinking about this, and you guys are right. The problem is, we have one person (me) that is against the divorce. We have 1. My attorney, 2. Her attorney, 3. The judge/court 4. WW trying to move things along. So it's me against 4 other entities. The problem is #3 has the power to move things along, and wouldn't want to see anything "unreasonable" either. They have too many cases clogging the system anyway. The good thing is there is a 6 month waiting period before divorce can proceed.

My attorney isn't 100% against reconciliation either. He told me he had many clients who changed their mind right at the last minute and decided to reconcile. He just warned me not to plan for that but to plan for the worst case, i.e. protect myself. His associate attorney warned me to be very careful even when WW wants to reconcile, as she has seen cases where they use to trick the husbands to find assets, etc.

I did see a little softening in WW's position throughout this weekend. She seems to have delayed her move as there are a lot of logistics involved especially with DS and custody time. Hopefully I'm not getting false hope. I'm continuing to update our friends on this hoping they can talk to her to think rationally. Even her cousin, who became an Enabler, admitted to me that WW is "stupid" after I told her about the POSOM conversation. But she said WW is almost 50 and she needs to make her own decisions, nothing she says can change her mind.

Wouldn't I show Disrespectful Judgment while protecting myself against a divorce? For example, WW feels she needs $YYYY per month in support payments, and I feel that she only needs $XXXX. Since we have a disagreement wouldn't she see that as a DJ? Or if I want certain days for custody while she wants another, and I place mine over hers as more important (especially to stay in DS's childhood home), she could see that I'm disrespecting her wishes?

Or during the course of the D, I obviously cannot be honest with her on our strategy. She has not been honest with me either, as she was secretly plotting the D while pretending to go along with me. Wouldn't that be Dishonesty?

Also, everything I'm doing if she leaves would be independent of her, as I wouldn't consult with her on stuff. Wouldn't that be IB? I just find it very hard to believe that I can protect myself during the D while not committing any LB's that would make her angry at me.

Now, looking back at our history, I think my biggest LB is Disrespectful Judgment/Annoying Habits. I have a bad habit of correcting her when she says something that is factually incorrect. Initially, when we were dating, WW was very impressed and it was a source of her admiration for me. "Wow, you are really smart and know so much." However, it gradually really became a source of irritation, so whenever *I* say something wrong now, she would correct me immediately, in a sarcastic tone. Now that I'm reading the LB book I recognize how destructive this behavior is.

WW also lacks confidence in writing and it would take her a long time to compose a simple "thank you" note or greeting card. She would ask me about spelling and I would get annoyed by it sometimes. She actually knows them, but she is not confident in these matters and always defers to me on them. (Kind of like my choosing the restaurant example I gave earlier). Now looking back I should have been more patient and sympathetic to her needs.

No, it is 1 against 1, you against your wife. The lawyer works for you and is your employee. He doesn't get a VOTE about the future of your marriage. His job is to help you drag this out so you can stay married. As his employer, it is your job to get him on board.


Wow, we were not aware that your WW is a) almost 50, and b) needs to make her own decisions! The cousin must be a GENIUS!

NO.

My suggestion would be to read about lovebusters. Nothing you cited is a lovebuster except the bad habit of correcting her. Radical honesty does not apply when it comes to affairs/divorces. Don't commit any lovebusters. It's real simple.

Yes, it's terrible. Cousin is punting and disavowing any responsibility for my WW's behavior. Even though she calls me out on everything I've supposedly done wrong (per WW's stories), and tells me to stop using words like "betrayal, unfaithful, lied, or dishonest." Frustrating talking to her, but I do think it was useful because her and MIL have a lot of influence over WW.

Unfortunately, life will not be easy for a 50 year old single woman. Your wife is getting ready to find this out the hard way.

I hope you are right... WW has always had it easy, she's an only child with older parents, so her parents doted on her. She was (and still is) very attractive so she always had a lot of attention in life.

Seems like she is planning to move out next week. We've been very cordial with each other, I've really avoided any potential LB. We're still planning to attend DS's events together this weekend and we sit together at the games. Hopefully she will see I am sincere and willing to reconcile. I've told her my only condition is she must have no contact with POSOM and we work on the marriage together...

Spycraft is a double-edged sword. Sometimes I wish I were still ignorant. But I guess it's always better to know the truth than being gaslighted.

Heard conversation WW had with MIL. She is planning with her attorney to file something this Friday or after. She said her attorney thinks my attorney and I are planning to drag things out (they are correct!) and their filing will speed things up by a couple months. She's planning to move out after this weekend, when my check clears.

It is very disheartening to hear, especially she has been playing nice with me. So I asked her directly this morning her plans and she got mad at me for not paying her entire credit card bill. I said, we agreed three weeks ago to split the credit cards up. She wants me to pay for any expenses she incurred on behalf of DS, grocery, her gas, etc. I said, no, it's no more yours than mine, especially since she diverted her paycheck since the beginning of the year to her secret bank account. She also wanted me to pay a large dental bill she incurred last year, about $2K left on $8K. I told her I'll have to check with my attorney. Then she got mad at me and said that she made money too in the past 18 years, and that her taking care of DS is "worth something." She had volunteered to pick up DS and deliver him if I have to work late. But actually DS's afterschool program can keep him until 6pm by which time I can pick him up. I didn't want to argue with her about all this so I just walked away.

Also, there's a very good chance that she will lose her job in a couple months, as her department is very likely to lose funding.

Am I committing LB's with my actions above? What should I do differently?

I would stop having these discussions with her. Let your attorney resolve these issues in the settlement.

Tell her you only talk marriage.

If she has to talk divorce talk to her lawyer.

I agree change the subject, ask her out to dinner or a movie. Anything but the specifics of a divorce.
You will get sucked into her vortex of entitlement and you have nothing to gain in there. She will continue to demand more, so just move onto something else.

Yes, this is true. It is not productive. However, trying to be positive with her has proven to be counterproductive as well. From hearing her conversations with MIL, my positive gestures were met with scorn and ridicule. She tells her the nice things I'm doing are empty gestures I should have done 18 years ago.
I have found if I leave her alone she gets curious and asked me about things. When I proactively try to be nice to her she pushes me away. Is this natural? This is what my friend who went through a bitter D told me too, that when he detached he got a lot more attention from his WW than when he was engaging her and fixing things for her.

NO, it is not counterproductive, IT IS A VERY GOOD SIGN!!! IT is better that she is combative and angry than WITHDRAWN. "Counterproductive" would be lecturing her and fighting with her about the divorce. Because when her little fantasy starts collapsing she will remember all the nice things you said and did.

OR she can remember bad things about you like fights and giving her the cold shoulder. Which do you think is the most likely to lead to a good marriage?


Wow, how did his situation work out for him?

just putting on my thinking cap and thinking out loud here. thinkthinkthinkthink How does the OM treat your wife? Does he give her the cold shoulder like your divorced friend is suggesting that you do?

Here is my suggestion. Find someone who has what you want and seek their advice. For example, your friend is divorced and went through a "bitter divorce." So he is experienced at bitter divorces. Do you desire a bitter divorce? If so, he is your go-to guy.

Many of us on this forum, however, have saved our marriages and are in happy, passionate marriages today.

TEST QUESTION: who would be the best source of advice?

Very true. This stuff is so hard.

I need to talk to my friend again whose WW came back to him after six months.

OR, you could talk to us. We have followed the program of Dr Harley, who has saved thousands of marriages. Are we boring you?

Yes, that's why I'm here.
This weekend is full of sports activities together. I will try my best to Plan A.

There's a credit card bill that's in WW's name. She thinks I should still pay for everything, even though we agreed four weeks ago (when I discovered her intent to file) that we should use our own credit cards. She stopped buying groceries for the house and she made me buy it last time. However, there were a few times when she went and bought food and things for DS, I told her I'd pay for them.

But other things like her own health insurance, gasoline (for driving around and looking for her apartment!), etc. I don't think I should pay for, right? I don't want this to be an LB but I don't think she should be a cake-eater either, and think I should just roll over and be a doormat?

I agree. Don't lovebust her, but let her pay the bills.

You should be very careful about following the advice of your friend. Why? Because the advice you are getting here is peer-reviewed. We all keep an eye on each other to make sure that the MB principles are properly applied. Your friend might think that the solution to your recovery can be obtained from a ouija board! There is a lot of conflicting and potentially harmful stuff out there. You are way better off to focus on Dr. Harley's proven approach.

When I talk to WW about various non-relationship issues, for example my son's team and coaching, my WW treats me very disrespectfully. The other parents on the team actually respect me a great deal about my thoughts on the team. I think this behavior has gradually worsened over the past few years, to the point that she talks to me in the same tone as she talks to DS.

How should I address this issue without it being an LB?

I am guessing that she does not enjoy these conversations. Perhaps she feels that you are lecturing her? Ask yourself whether she needs to know about your son's team and coaching, if she does maybe it is time to let DS do the explaining.

Don't address it and stop talking about that subject. IT sounds like your thoughts on the subject annoy her. So stop it.

No, this is just one example that came up yesterday. There are so many others, usually very trivial. It's not the subject, but anything I state. It could be as innocuous as my saying, "It's supposed to rain tomorrow." She would say, "No it's not." I used to try to argue with her, saying XYZ forecast said it would, 70% chance, etc. After a while, I just give up and not say anything.

Or I would say, ABC said XYZX about this person we know. She would immediately contradict me, saying "You don't know that. Everyone has their own story."

I think it's the result of the DJ that I gave to her early in the marriage, and she has learn to dish it out on me, except she would do it just to spite me. I think it's one of the main things corroding our marriage.

It sounds like she developed a defensive mechanism in response to your correcting her, which is a HUGE lovebuster. Hopefully you are refraining from correcting her? Spouses who always have to be right are a huge turn off. Doing so causes resentment.

Yes, I have stopped correcting her long ago. Part of it, you have described before correctly, is pure conflict avoidance. I just didn't want to argue with her any more. When I sense she is about to attack me, I just withdraw and not say anything any more.

However, this conversation last night really made me think about the core of our problems. She does not show me respect. My MIL observed it before and told her to stop.

It is actually the same problem as that restaurant choice problem I discussed with you many weeks ago. She uses that topic to try to hurt me, by rejecting my choices, one after another. It became a chess game, when I stop suggesting restaurants, because I know whatever I say will be shot down. When that happens, she throws the problem to DS, who has also been conditioned by my ordeal not to say anything as it may very well be shot down by her as well.

It is actually a very miserable problem, now that I think about it.

You are assuming what her motivation is, and by doing so, you are committing a disrespectful judgement.

So how should I handle these situations?

Be extremely polite and don't argue with her.

When is she moving out?