Hi everyone. I can't believe I found what seems like would work. Of course I seem to be a day late and $ short at times when it comes to things like this. Long story short, been married to my husband for 14 years, we have an 11 year old and one away at college. I don't even know where to begin. We have been in this awful round about of each of us constantly doing love busters and not fulfilling each others emotional needs. The other day I asked my husband what love bank # he would be and he said -100. I told him first that I was at like -10. I have not implemented anything jointly with my husband as of yet. He has said numerous times over the past few months that he wants to move out. We had been arguing daily and both had had enough. I told him that he had said he wanted to leave for the last time and that he could move out right now. He has been at a hotel since. I messed up and wish I could have read about the plan A/B 2 weeks ago. In the few days after he left we talked and got along more than we had in months. I gave him the emotional needs questionnaire this past Sunday and asked him to fill it out. I also gave him a copy of the joint agreement and asked him to read it and think about it and lets talk about it soon. We had a few long conversations about our kids, some sort of plan and he said he wanted at least a 6 month separation with a goal of getting back together. (don't feel happy about that and would hope of a 3-4 month to month lease) We went out to dinner on Tuesday and as he was dropping me off I saw on the floor of his car was an unsigned lease agreement for a condo. (I had knew he was thinking of doing this) It said a ONE YEAR lease. I feel devastated. I just feel like this will be the beginning of the end for us if he does that. Since he has been gone I have 100% eliminated all love busters(I'm currently reading the book) and until I get his questionnaire back I can only guess what his needs are(but I'm pretty sure I know a few at least) I feel like he's having a midlife crisis. He has completely denied this. As I have read and read I really believe he has Mr nice guy syndrome.***EDIT*** I have tried to talk to him about it and he instantly got defensive. Then after more talk I think he may be starting to agree. I have mentioned that book to him and he is currently reading boundaries first. He has a good heart and I believe he wants to do better but just doesn't have the tools or support system. We started therapy and it was just a B$tch fest. I don't even feel like it was any help(we went twice so far) I would love to implement something from the marriage builders but I don't even know where to start. He seems to do most everything at a snails pace. I have read 3 books in the past few weeks and he's on page 50 of #1. (Should I think..at least he's reading?!)
I have tried to fill his love bank even though he has been gone and I do believe it has helped. My biggest issue is that I feel like even if I tried Plan A, I wouldn't get past a week if I didn't get any response back from him. Plan A says.. "acting like an angel" If I could do that, I wouldn't be here in the first place. I just have no clue how I would ever want him back after an entire year. He doesn't really meet any of my emotional needs and with him gone now for only 8 days, I see already that all his love busters are long gone and it makes me comfortable and content with him not here. Where do I start to just my marriage back?! Thanks.

Why does he want to move out? Men normaly don't want to move out. You mention a midlife crisis. This is often a eufemism for affair. Seperation will not save your marriage, but is likely to destroy it.

First thing you need to do is establish wether or not he is having an affair. If there is no affair, the strategy to save your marriage will be very different.

Do you have access to his phone records and computer? Is there a woman at work who he might be talking to a lot? Don't ask him, if there is an affair he will not tell the truth anyway and you don't want to alarm him.

For now, plan A is your plan and you need to snoop. In the section "operation investigate" you find info on keyloggers, GPS units, voice activated recorders.

There is no affair. I'm 100% sure. He just can't stand the fighting and love busters anymore. I feel like he wants to go back to age 20 and have a redo. I think he's so far in the negative that he rather be alone. Yep my fault but he has faults too. He says he just can't do any work on himself being in our home.

MLC is code for affair and moving out is code for affair. So you have not ONE but TWO huge red flags for an affair.

The only way you could be sure is that there is no affair if you have spyware on all of his devices (phone and computer) and have had a PI following him and VAR in his car.

Every poster tells us there is no affair. That is COMMON.

My sister came to me telling me her H was having MLC and it took not only me but this forum to convince her to SNOOP - in less than one week she had the evidence that she was 100% sure she would not find that there was, in fact, an affair.

I am pretty sure he is having an affair. The first step is to QUIETLY snoop on him and find out what he is doing. Moving out makes absolutely no sense unless there is an affair. Don't ask him, just quietly snoop. Can you afford a PI for a couple of days?

"Mid life crisis" is a term used by spouses who are in denial. It is a meaningless term typically used to excuse/explain a spouse who is having an affair.

ok so let's say I snoop and do not find any affair. Then what? I already can track his car and suppose I look at the phone records. I can look but I just don't feel like this will help me/us at all when I don't find anything.

Feelings are not truth. If you find out there is an affair, we will help you save your marriage. But you can't save your marriage if you don't have the FACTS. The steps to save a marriage that is damaged from infidelity is radically different from other marriage problems. If there is no affair we will tell you how to proceed. If there is, we will give you another plan.

The key word being QUIETLY.

What I have found is that posters have such a strong desire for the marital issue to NOT be an affair, that they will go to the WS, confront them in the hopes that the WS will pacify them with claims that there is no affair, and then the WS just takes the affair underground.

Which will only make a BAD situation WORSE.

Please do NOT confront or ask your spouse about any affair. Please.

Hire a PI.

I know you don't want to believe there is an affair but your husband's behaviour is textbook wayward.

Once you have the proof, MB can help you kill the affair and give you the best chance for recovery.

I am sorry you are going through this.

Then when you snoop you can rule out whether there is an affair or not. Like all the other posters have said don't let your H know you are snooping.

Come back here and tell us what you found.

Why do you track his car? That is an unusual thing for a spouse to do.

ok soooo I am looking at cell phone records and it looks like you all may be right. I'm shaking and in shock right now. texts all day long while a work, all early morning. It seems the numbers change constantly. Now since he has been out of the house it is late at night and even 3am! ok so besides shutting my mouth, NOW WHAT?! OMG OMG

I am so sorry. Please calm down and don't say anything. You need to get EVIDENCE of an affair. What you have is not direct evidence. Can you hire a PI to follow him for a few days?

Who is the woman? Do you know who she is ? Can you find her name, facebook page, marital status?

Save all this evidence in a safe place.

The kind of car there is a phone app for it, when we got it 3 years ago we both have the app so when I drive it. We can warm it up before getting in, track charging that sort of thing.

I have no clue who it is. I don't even know how to find out. Hire a PI, yea sure why not. With the amount of texts going back and forth is there anyway it can't be another woman??

Right. So what do the records how about where he goes in the car? Is he supposed to drive just to work and back home? Does he do that?

Yes. There isn't anything that would clue me in that he has been not where he is supposed to be. He gets up showers and goes to work. Takes care of our son when he is supposed to, comes home. Gets a pay check. (so he clearly is at work) He has not worked out of town, he has not left town. He has one activity/week that I am not with him and he is with two of our close friends. (but now I see they have been working out of town, so they may have not been there) but then I see all these texts sometimes when he is there, so who knows. There are multiple #s where there is texting ALL day. One is an out of state area code, so that's confusing. I'm not sure a PI can prove anything.

You need to stop second-guessing things. You said that checking his phone records would not turn up anything, and look how quickly it did. A PI would prove something very quickly, too.

He's probably having an affair with someone from work, and he additionally meets her at this weekly event (what is it? Surely you cannot be identified if you tell us?) when his friends are not there.

I would start by doing reverse-lookups on those numbers. You can even google the phone number directly. You may find out quite a bit that way.

It probably is another woman. But you need to find out WHO and what is going on. A phone log with texts tells you nothing other than he is texting alot.

You can do a reverse look up on the phone #s at http://www.okcaller.com/index.php

Will you hire a PI?

The PI can follow him. And you can look up these #s and see who they belong to.

You don't live with him and you were not with him 24/7 when you were living together so you don't know what he does when you are not there.

You cannot rely on the car tracking because your husband KNOWS that you can track him. He can easily leave the car at work, the hotel, where ever he wants you to see him and then get a ride another way.


An out of state area code really does not mean much these days. I work with many people who have out of state numbers despite residing in my state. People no longer get new phone numbers when they move because there is no reason to get one.

You need to find out what he is doing when he thinks you are not looking. That is why you hire a PI.

ok soo I found out one number is a co-worker. It is a 22 year old female. There are pretty much no calls to/from her only texts. He does text coworkers. Also they are all during work and never on the weekend. My husband and her are friends on fb but she is also friends with other coworkers that I know(men)
She's this poor girl that he views as a kid pretty much. (he has a 21 year old daughter) She's been working there about a year. I'm not going to say it isn't possible, but I don't know how to prove anything. You need a badge to go anywhere near his work. She is the boss's step daughter. I have never met her. I was out of town last month for the weekend. No texts to her. She is in a relationship and has a 2 year old. He actually went to lunch with her today along with my son, and a few other coworkers. We have a few mutual friends who work with my husband. So nope, no proof of anything.

its bowling.

We told you how to prove it, hire a PI. Why would he text her if they were together? This is what you need to find out. He is very likely in an affair. So your next steps are to find out if, when and WHO. And maybe he is not having an affair. It is unlikely, but you need to find out for sure. You can't solve a problem if you don't have all the facts.

A PI can probably watch him for a few hours at his hotel and find out.

One thing that doesn't make any sense to me is that there is a new number that just popped up this past Sat. Plenty of texts. I looked up the # and its a male. ??

Stop guessing, get proof. If you can afford a PI, it will be easy. Living in a hotel gives him feeling of freedom to see her without poeple at work or his wife noticing. A PI won't need weeks following him to find out who he is seeing. He only has to wait at the hotel.

Men don't look at 22 y old women as children. They just don't.

ok here's the deal. I just don't believe there is anything going on with the coworker. Nothing adds up. Besides bowling night, I know where he is. That is since I kicked him out. That was on the 9th. All of the sudden on the 12th there have been quite a few numbers late at night. I figured out who they all are. They are not good people. A few guys from bowling, and two women. One of who he has text back and forth MANY times since. This has only been SIX days. I checked the past 3 months of phone bills, nothing on them. and now this. I feel like I just so happened to stumble on the beginning of something. Is something happening that started only 6 days ago? Who knows. How do I stop it right now in its tracks? I'm not sure if he just met her or not, but he knows the scum guys that she hangs around. And the other woman is scum too. I know you guys are here for a reality check but it just seems everyone is on here screaming AFFAIR! I see this post was even moved to the affair area. Maybe me coming on here today was just to see that something may be just starting right now. Do I do nothing? I need some solid ideas. I want this stopped ASAP. I have solid proof already that says he texted this woman 120 times in the past 6 days. What else do I really need? That's proof no? maybe not of an affair but something it shouldn't be.

Is there a reason why you can not hire a PI?

Look, he is a grown man with a will of his own, and there is nothing you can do to force him to stop doing anything. If you confront him, you will just drive the affair underground. So stop listening to your instincts. We know how you should deal with this in a way that gives you the best chance for recovery.

How does he do bowling on his own? You said that sometimes his friends have been away on his bowling night.

Find out the facts FIRST and then we can help you with next steps. Nothing you can do until that happens. And no, he didn't just "start" an affair. It was going on before he left.

We are not screaming "AFFAIR;" we are screaming "FIND OUT THE FACTS!" You can't make a plan without the FACTS.

This is his daughter from a previous marriage? How did his first marriage end and how long after the divorce did you meet? Is this your first marriage and his second?

You were out of town for the weekends. Were you away often? Did you always know where he was when you were away?

In your first post you say he wanted to move out, later you say you kicked him out. Can you tell us how he moved out? Was he eager to go when you told him you had enough of his threats or did you really kick him out and was he reluctant to go?

yes it is. He was married by shotgun pretty much when he was a teenager when she was pregnant. We met 10 months after he moved to this state from another. It is my first and his second. I met him when he was 22 and I was 21. I also have a son who has a different father. He was still legally married when we met(not to my knowledge)

I was out of town for one weekend. Yes I knew where he was. He was at home, I checked the car gps at times and even saw that he got food delivery and a rental movie on our cable bill.

He has said a few times that he wanted to move out, because we always argue. He couldn't take it anymore. Also our son is around so he didn't want him around that anymore either. That night I did actually kick him out. I told him I had heard it enough and if he didn't want to be there then he could go, and out the door he went. He would never back down and beg to stay, that wouldn't be him.

Here's today's update. So far the numbers I have seen texting him and gone ignored by him today.(3 times) He asked me this morning if we could talk about him coming home. We just had an almost 2 hour conversation and have made some rules. Some of which he will tell me where he is going and with who. (I of course kept my mouth shut about the texting.) I really do believe it sparked him and he knows it and has stopped it. I have mentioned the emotional needs questionnaire again and he is going to do it hopefully tomorrow. He will be sleeping in another room and no sex for the next 6 weeks.(his choice) he says that all too often we fight and then will have sex and it is just this round about. That we need to be happy and get along before we can have sex again.

Ok so what I need help on is PLAN A. This is really what I was hoping for. AMEN!

Ok, Plan A is for AFFAIRS, so the first step is get the FACTS so you can either rule it in or out. Otherwise, nothing we tell you to do will be of any effect. We will be wasting our time giving you advice that won't fit.


BAD IDEA. This just tells me that he is coming home - not to fix your marriage - but for some ulterior motive. That motive could be that his affair partner does not want him to sleep with you and/or he has advised - correctly - that leaving his home puts him at a legal disadvantage in a divorce action.

Sleeping APART and not having sex will not help your marriage, though. It will hurt your marriage. If the goal is to save your marriage, then you should a) sleep together and have sex, b) stop fighting and c) fix your marriage. He doesn't want to do that which is very curious.

Not having a plan is a plan to fail. Your marriage will not magically resolve itself. You have to have a PLAN. Having him sleep in the guest room and tell you where he is going will not save your marriage.

You should first have a PLAN before he comes home. Without ruling out an affair FIRST, you are just setting yourself up for a front row seat to your worst nightmare. I would not let him come home until you have ruled out an affair.

This is what it will take [in addition to ruling out an affair] How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts
and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Here's the thing. I cant prove anything. I can prove he texted back and forth 140 times in less than a week. The woman has texted him 3 times yesterday and twice today to which he has ignored. Let's say he has ended it, now what? I contacted a PI AND ITIS $60/hr. For what, to sit in front of our house when he has been home since he came back and never left. Do I wait until there is a time when we wont be around each other and wait?
He has a new credit card and bank account I don't have access to. He will not let his phone out of his sight. What can I possibly plan? I have constant worry and anxiety over this. I have no one to talk to and dont know what to do. I can't sleep.

What you need to do is hire a PI and get the goods. Once you do that, we can help you with next steps.

The thing is....any kind of surveillance that you have that he MAY be aware of most likely means he is being careful. So if he is aware of this tracking app and has it on his own phone, you should basically view that as useless. Same goes for the phone records if he knows that you can look at it.

That doesn't even take into account if someone is picking him up, staying at his place or if he is using email or a burner phone... To me, he sounds like someone having an affair who got a little sloppy (typical for way wards) but for the most part being cautiousl with his cell phone.

You really need to hire a PI. You could even stake out his workplace and home...or have a friend to do it.

He is at home WITH ME. Also no one can get to his workplace, it is security guarded. I would love to have a friend go watch him at bowling for 4 hours, I sure as hell don't want to pay someone $60/hr to do that. Besides I pretty much have zero friends. (and not really any he doesn't know)

Let us know when you get serious about your situation. There is nothing we can do for you until that happens. Best of luck to you...

First off, no need for the snotty tone. You realize that we are volunteers trying to help you solve YOUR problem, right? You're shooting at the rescue copters and people are soon going to abandon your thread, which is the last thing you want.

Secondly, regardless of whether he is at home WITH YOU, it seems you missed the point of my post, (which was along the same lines of the previous posts) basically telling you that what you are currently doing is NOT ENOUGH to prove or rule out an affair.

It is up to you to figure out how to resolve this. All we are doing is trying to HELP you. It seems to me that you want to skip over the affair part and move on to the "meeting EN's" part of Plan A. Well, that won't work. Sorry.

Affairs don't work that way. It seems you have some (MB) reading to do. You would still need to follow all of the steps we have laid out for you in order to recover your marriage.

So despite his coming HOME, he is still displaying all the RED FLAGS of someone in an affair.

Do you know how much a divorce costs??

I thought he had moved out, and the two of you yesterday only discussed the possibility of his moving home. When did he move back?

If you can't sleep and he does why can't you put spyware on his phone? Then you'd know what the texts say?

Yes spy ware is a good idea.

Also it seems that a PI would be worth the money to see if the OW bowls.

And, at least GPS his car to know even if he goes bowling and or does he take any detours/delays coming home after "bowling".

Going on the notion that your husband has ended it is silly because all of his "actions" say that he is not serious about rebuilding the marriage and is still hiding things from you. Furthermore...you have seen that OW is actively pursuing him.

Hide a voice activated recorder in the car. Put spyware on the computer and phone. Do something. The car tracking app is worthless because he KNOWS about it.

Can you hide a voice activated recorder in his car and anywhere at home that he may go for privacy?

Also, I don't know if anyone has ever tried this, but you might be able to hire someone who does odd's and ends type work from a resource like craigs list to follow and watch him when he does leave for bowling for less than a P.I. Though I would think a PI would be more efficient. You should be able to explain the situation to a couple PI's and get their take on how much time it would probably take them.

ok, I'm not sure how someone can have a "tone" in a forum. If what I am doing is not enough, what exactly should I be doing? That is what I came here for. I need real, actual ideas.

You see, that's a tone, right there, and it isn't appreciated by people who have taken time out from their lives to help you. "That is what I came here for. I need real, actual ideas" - that is demanding, and it is ungracious, when people have spent hours giving you real, actual ideas.

I suggest you go through this thread and write down each suggestion that has been made to you.

ok here is what I have written down.

Spyware the phone and computer. I checked multiple sites for iphone spyware, nothing is useable for recovery of old texts unless it is an old iOS.(my husband is pretty tech savvy and everything is updated) Also nothing is useable for new texts, as they seem to all use an old outdated iOS. ?? (Mspy, highster mobile, flexispy) He only has a work laptop, we don't have a home computer. (I don't know the password) He has a tablet and I have tried a few different passwords to no avail so far. He does leave this laying around at times so I may be able to try again. Besides going to work he has not gone anywhere. A PI cannot go to his work. He is going to bowling(which is a men's league) on Thursday but both of our mutual friends will be there. He comes straight home from bowling and work. Doesn't a PI follow someone when they are going places that I wouldn't know of? I believe he only met up with this person once or twice in public(like meeting for the first time) and then texted and it turned emotional. What would be considered proof? One time he just so happened to take a shower without his phone and I checked and her number is blocked but still in the contact list. ( I just re-read that, it means he might contact her in the future. But there is no way to read those texts.) Any texts have been long deleted. The other woman I couldn't find, I only had a couple of minutes. (he was texting two women over 6 days while he was gone and never before that or after) One good thing is that I know the code to unlock his phone.(he never changed that when he left and came back) It is always next to him when he sleeps as he uses it for an alarm. I have thought about trying to check it out when he is sleeping but I'm scared I'll get caught. On another note he wears a fitbit 24-7 and that goes off everytime he gets a text or anything happens on the phone.

I really feel like any evidence I could get is long gone. The only new evidence I could get would be new texts and that isn't possible. I believe that if I told him that I know about 140 texts he would deny he did anything wrong. I could be wrong, but it isn't proof of anything right? What if there is no proof to find?


I of course don't want to just forget what he did, or what may or may not have happened as I believe it might happen again, but if it was something that was a one time thing(like a one night stand) what would be the process with that?

I do appreciate all the help here and I don't mean to be demanding(that is a love buster I am working on)

I think you're making this much too complicated. About a million people on this site have found evidence of their spouse's affair. You cannot be the first person in the history of affairs to be unable to find evidence - especially when you already HAVE evidence.

1. You need to have somebody observe him this Thursday night.

We cannot hold your hand through every possible way you could get this done. You are going to have to use your initiative and get this done. You can pay a PI, but since you refuse to do that, find some other way to spy on him. You can even try doing it yourself, going to the venue after he is suppose to arrive there. And - you never answered my question about what he could have been doing when his friends were away, and therefore did not go bowling with him.

A PI can sit outside his work, BTW. Is he allowed to leave the plant at lunchtimes? And how do you know that he leaves the place alone, when it comes to home time? You actually have no idea what a PI can spot him doing - but once again (and this is where your snotty tone came in last week when Susie posted to you), you "sure as hell" do not want to spend $60 per hour to employ one.

2. You need to put spyware on his phone. "The only new evidence I could get would be new texts and that isn't possible." Why isn't it possible? There is plenty of spyware for the latest phones. You said you know the code to his phone. Use it to install spyware that will send email evidence your email account. You are going to have to get over your fear of getting caught. Just do not get caught.

3. Hide at least two voice activated digital recorders in places where he might make a phone call. One should be put in his car. You need to disable any lights that show that it is working, and use velcro to put it where it won't be seen - such as the underside of the glove box. Put another somewhere in the house, such as in a home office or garden room, where he might make a phone call.

Our job is to tell you that you need to get evidence of this affair - evidence that will convince a jury. We will then tell you how to use that evidence.

Your job is to figure out a way to get the evidence - not to come here repeatedly giving reasons why you cannot get evidence. If that's the stance you are going to take, you might as well accept your husband's behaviour and give up trying to do anything about it.

Get a couple Voice Activated Recorders, about $50 each. Use it in his car, wherever in the house he makes calls, etc.
It's very easy and you will find out a lot of info you need, as well as you don't want to know.
Trust me, it worked for me.

This option has been recommended already on this thread and ignored. Just sayin'

Nope, don't believe that. There are numerous resources to recover deleted texts. Try this one: http://www.wondershare.net/ad/dr-fone/text-recovery.html?gclid=COOv_qyg1csCFdgBgQod_bYBrA


You should grab his phone while he is sleeping and go through it.



The PI can follow him. He may be leaving work or not even going "bowling." Do you have proof he is bowling? Saying that your "mutual friends" are there means nothing.

Anyway, it is not that hard to snoop so instead of spending all your time coming up with reasons why you CAN'T, you need to get to work and figure it out.

Otherwise, there is nothing we can do for you. Keep in mind, that YOU are the only one who benefits from getting the evidence. We have already saved our marriages. So please don't waste our time and yours.

I believe flexispy has a very good helpdesk. Why not ask for help?

He has an iphone 6+ with the most recent ios. All the spyware only works for older ios.

I just found one of the hotel receipts that shows a $150 charge for smoking. My husband has never smoked.

What is the ios version?

9.3 or 9.2.1 ( 9.3 was new update yesterday an im not sure if he updated it yet or not. )

Wondershare MrFone text retrieval works with all the ios 9's. Did you actually CALL flexispy and ask? I am sure there are many that do work on the latest updates, you just have to do the legwork.

Right on the flexispy website it says ios 9.0 i tried to call, # doesnt work and sat on chat for a half hour waiting.
Ill have to try more tomorrow. Maybe by some miracle I can get some sleep.

No, the # does work. You need to try again. When I looked it said 9.2. So you need to call and stop giving up so easily. This is really ridiculous.

ok here's what I got. Did the wondershare, it came up with a few of the texts. he was clearly at the bar. Talking to two women clearly. One text said from one woman said "if you give your D to everyone till it hurts you are gonna have a big problem"

After further snooping on his phone I found the moment app. Funny thing this was put on forever ago by both of us for no real reason. It shows where his phone was at and for how long. At the bar until 4am more than once(pretty sure they close at 2) and it looks like he may have stayed at her house overnight. AND that was the night before he came home! Funny thing he has her name in his phone as last name C and it is really S.(first name is correct) Both numbers are still in phone as unblocked. Neither have texted since the 17th. This, the texting log of 140 texts, smoking in his hotel room. Is this enough? I still just can't believe this.

So do know who these OW are? Are they married?

Ok, next step is to expose the affair. Go read my Exposure 101 thread and start exposing it.

They are not to what I can see. One is around our same age(40) and the other is 24. Both single and have no signs of a boyfriend from what I can gather on fb. Spokeo says single too.

Would I talk to him first and see if he confesses? Or just tell everyone else first? I have read and read half the night and I feel confused on that part. Thanks.

Have you copied their Facebook friend's list and saved it?

I'm working on that today.

You would expose first. Actually you don't need his confession. You already know the truth. After you expose the affair wide and affair, I would DEMAND that he end his affair today and agree to never see this woman again. He would need to agree to implement the extraordinary precautions on this checklist. If he won't do that, then you should ask him to move out.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

thank you!

Also on the exposure, He can get leave work and get home within about 10 min. Thoughts on that?? I have no doubt he would leave, come home and try to stop me. And I feel it may take hours for the exposure. I thought about waiting until after bedtime. Then everyone will wake up to the same messages. Or I can try to leave. Of course my car is in the shop.

how is this??

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxxx and I. Two weeks ago xxxxx had told me that he wanted a separation and to move out which has shattered my heart. To my utter shock, I am saddened to have discovered that during this separation he has been carrying on an affair with two women named xyz and 1234. All the while telling me that he was working on our marriage. As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxxx to persuade him to end his affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if he would only end the affair. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

xxx

You could go to your Public Library and use a computer there to do all of the exposures and turn yourbcell phone off in case he tries to blow it up with angry messages.

Make sure you first have copied all of the Friends List contact information and save that as a Word Document prior to starting the exposures.

Do you have the two other women's nanes and Facebook listings to get their friends lists too?

LTL

It is done! I am beyond relieved. It worked like magic. I cannot thank everyone on here enough. My husband has already sent a letter to them stating he wants nothing to do with them ever again. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart.

Wait. Slow down.

What did you husband's letter say? Was it identical to Dr harley's template in the book? Was it a letter, an email or a text? Did you read it and press "send' yourself?

This letter?

This is not a sprint, this is a marathon. Your first yards may have gone well, you need to focus on reaching the finish.

Please share your steps here, to help guide your feet.

Yes the letter was like that. I approved. Sent via text(the only contact he has with them). Yes I agree a marathon. Now he is dealing with the backlash. He is upset that everyone thinks it was sexual when it wasnt. Most are very supportive. I need some sleep and then we can start the work.

Don't believe him that it wasn't sexual. Just don't.

You are being very brusque with the advice we are offering. I am trying to stop you finding out later that this has all been false, and he is still in contact with them.

Didn't you say that at least one of these women is a co-worker - the younger one? How is he supposed to go NC with her, if that's true? And please remind me of his relationship to the other one. How did he meet her? If she's local to you, you're going to need to move house. Recovery from something like this is a big undertaking. It does not work by sending a letter and drawing a line under the events.

And your husband needs to stop lying. His relationship with these women is sexual, not emotional. He has spent the night at one of their houses, and they talked about his wearing out his body part.

You both need to be tested for STDs, no matter what he says about not having intercourse, or later, when he finally admits that he had sex and says he used a condom.

In your shoes, I'd be looking at a polygraph test. Your husband has been playing around for quite a while now, and I don't think you know the half of what he's been doing.

What exactly did it say?

But it WAS sexual. The problem is he is still lying. The first step is to come clean. If he wants to lie, then you should schedule a polygraph.

There are alot of holes in this whole deal. Like Sugarcane pointed out, doesn't he work with one of these women?

Yes!! And I think you have stuck your head in the sand and ignored very obvious signs. I knew from your first post that he was having an affair, but you didn't. How is that even possible?

This woman?

It was not the coworker. What if it was not sexual?

You knew Melody because you have 86000 posts on here and have been reading and learning about this for many years.

I asked if it was proof enough, I had zero proof there was anything sexual and he has not admitted to anything like that. He is quite shy in that area. I have no idea what else to say.

You can find out if it was sexual and/or if he is concealing additional affairs or information by having him take a polygraph test. If he is not lying, he will welcome the opportunity to prove that to you.

What do you know about these women? Do you know their full names? (Don't tell us their names.) How did he meet them? What kind of relationship dies he claim to have had with them? Do they know each other - was this some kind of 3-way? How long was he involved with them? how far from you do they live? Are they married? Why did they hang around with a married man?

You are FAR too willing for this to be over, but I think that this goes a lot deeper than you realise, and if you don't get to the bottom of it there are worse surprises awaiting you.

Yes, but you live with him so you have had a rare view that no one has. I think your H has had other affairs too from the sounds of it. I hope that you have learned the signs from this experience. If not, I predict this will happen again.


Schedule the polygraph test and hand him a list of all your questions. [these won't necessarily be the questions asked on the polygraph.] Give him a chance to come clean BEFORE the test but tell him that he MUST pass the test. He will likely spill his guts once he sees he can't manipulate you out of the test.

You are in the long habit of sweeping everything under the rug. You won't be able to have a marriage if you don't stop doing that. Being gullible and naive need to be things of the past.

I do know their full names. I know where they live, they both live less than 30 min from us. They met at the bar over the 3/11 weekend for the first time. He admitted it was emotional with the younger girl. He says they do not know each other and he was not with them together(yes I thought of that too) neither are married, I have no idea why they would hand around a married man. First I believe they didn't know he was married(he admittedly removed his ring at the bar), secondly the older one is total scum. One of those bad women who bar hop and are on all men.

I have asked him if he would take a polygraph and he said sure. He said he never touched either of them in any way.

He said it was 100% emotional and the 24 year old was telling him how nice he was and what a great person he is. Clearly something that I have been failing to do all this time.

Yes this has happened before, 10 years ago. Same sort of thing. Although it went on longer. I would say maybe 2-3 months.

I just bought surviving the affair.

He is currently mad. I told a few of his coworkers(they were fb friends) He deleted his fb account. Then he started on that he should be able to tell everyone all the things I've done to him. I don't even know what to say to this. Of course I have made mistakes, of course I am not perfect. What do I even say to this?

Yes I do want this to be over, but I am willing to do whatever it takes to get the marriage I want.

I don't really want to bury my head in the sand.. but this is very scary. My mother has told me all day.. this is a mistake, you shouldn't do that. Those things should be private. My sister never even responded. My father is an alcoholic,(long out of the picture) the family is used to sweeping things under the rug. My sister also had an affair a few years ago to which I believe no one really knows about. It was never really brought to light and they got divorced right after.

I have had quite a few friends respond positively. People who know me, have seen my bad side.

He had an affair and he wants to punish you? I can tell you that his attitude reflects someone who is not remotely serious. Why did he come home?

I bet there is more. He is very wayward and I can tell he has been that way a long time. He will have to make a radical change in his lifestyle to protect you from more affairs. Did you follow the checklist?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

It will be very easy for him to hook up with them.

oh and on woman #1, I didn't even have to message all of her friends on fb, one of the first people I messaged must have sent her the message and she posted it on her own fb herself! She said she didn't know it was April fools day and that it was a joke.
and she posted one of my profile pics of my husband and I.(for what I have no clue) We have a mutual fb "friend" we all went to the same high school over different years. I never knew any of them then. The person who told me is a cousin of a friend.

because he loves me/our family and wants things to be better.

I did follow the checklist. I believe you posted it earlier. He has done everything I have requested.

But his actions don't reflect this. A person who is serious about repairing the damage does not propose to punish his victim. A wayward husband who is serious shows up repentant with his hat in his hand. Your H is nothing like that.

ok so now what? wait and see? Divorce? I think he is really shocked and clearly embarrassed. He's listening to some peoples bad advice, probably ones who know I've been a real B at times and have told him that I put all our personal business out there.

But you told us that he only deleted the facebook page when his coworkers unfriended him. That is on the checklist.

I see you headed to a very false recovery. First off, he is still lying. Secondly, he wants to punish you. That is not the behavior of someone who is serious. I am sorry to tell you this, but this has all the markings of false recovery.

I would plan to separate from him if he doesn't get serious. And believe me, he is not serious. I don't understand why he came home. There must be some ulterior motive.

He is talking about YOU and your marriage to other people? Who?

This is not someone who is "shocked and embarrassed." This is someone is ticked off about the consequences of his affair and wants to punish his victim.

How long do I give him to get serious?

he was about to post on fb a long post about what is going on. yes he sounds totally childish and wants attention. Even my 21 year old son has told him that to his face. I think he needs a good therapist. Can I add that to the list?

yep that sounds about right, now that you say it. I think in his mind I deserve it because I was a B to him and he was never getting what he needed.

So, he is entitled to have affairs if he doesn't get what he needs? Like I said, this is not a person who is serious.

I would give him until tomorrow. You need to start looking at separation.


He doesn't need a therapist, he needs to get serious.

Why would I separate? He has done everything I asked. I dont get it and what you are saying doesnt follow the book. ??

Listen, you have a real problem on your hands.

Your WH is a serial cheater and you don't have ALL the information about all of his affairs. I believe since you are in the habit of sweeping things under the rug he is just hoping to get on to business as usual.

Schedule the POLY today.

It is COMMON for a wayward to "agree" to take a poly. It is an entirely different thing for them to follow through on it.

This is what you need to do. TODAY.

As others have told you, your WH is lying. We can tell you that with as much certainty as we told you from the start that he was having an affair.

Lying about what?
(1) Those affairs were NOT emotional. (2) he is lying about the young coworker that was texting him and (3) I am pretty sure there are other affairs you don't know about.

You can't even being any process of recovery until you get the truth.

At this point it's all talk. Nothing has actually been done.

Has he given you access to the new "private" credit card and bank account records?

I noticed this never answered and my radar was already on alert when you said the "letter was like that". There was no letter. A text is not a letter.

Aside from getting the truth, recovery beings with the NCL being sent in accordance with the SPECIFIC instructions which were shared with you. When this first important step done differently than those instructions, that's always a red flag. It's a red flag about the WS being not serious and it's a red flag about the BS letting things "slide".

I personally have noticed over the years when this corner is cut...others end up being cut too.

So again....Do you know what he wrote? If so, please share it with us.

Dr Harley has often said on his radio show that a WH should be on bended knee and hat in hand. Did you know that?

Melody just addressed this, newtopia.


Please slow down, take a breath and take this step by step.

The "agreement" of a serial cheating wayward is nothing to get excited about, sorry.

. He is at the gym and when he returns I will post what it says. Why write a letter, what would he do with it? He doesnt know their address.

describe hat in hand to me please. He was like that yesterdat and is now pissed everyone knows about how he is. He said he is working from home today.

Hopefully you are joking.

]

You said he has done everything you asked, but I don't see where you asked him to LIE to you and where you asked him to punish you for exposure.

The biggest issue I see here is that you are not serious, newtopia. You have been sweeping the signs under the rug for years. He had an affair 10 years ago, but you willfully ignored all the obvious signs even though you KNEW [and I did not] that he had a history of cheating. They were so obvious that a perfect stranger on the internet - ME - could see he was having an affair. Yet you didn't see it and didn't believe it even when told. You had to be pushed and prodded to get the evidence.

Your future will be more of the same if you don't get serious.

Other rules are to eliminate the conditions that led to the affair. That would be eliminating opposite sex friendships and staying out of bars. You should spend ALL of your leisure time together. I would be very alarmed about a serial cheater going to a gym. They are pick up joints.

I doubt he will actually do any of this. And I doubt he will take the polygraph. Like Susie said, all WS initially agree to a polygraph but then when it comes close to the date, they balk. They first REFUSE to go saying something like "if you don't trust me, we shouldn't be married" and threaten to leave. When that doesn't work, he will throw you a few crumbs in the hopes that you will think you have all the truth and will back down. When that doesn't work, he will either leave or he will spill his guts.

Theres no proof he's lieing or not and probably never will be. Do you not agree with that?

Why would I ask him to shut down fb? He never used that during the affair.

Also there is zero chance we will ever move. If that is what it takes I guess I wont continue to post anymore

Do you have PROOF that he is telling you the truth? What is your proof? Would you agree it would be stupid to believe a liar?


Did you not read the checklist?


Like I said before, he will never be serious as long as you are not serious.

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

Any of this been done?

No I do not agree with that. There is a polygraph. That would provide proof. Do you have any objection to arranging one?

The number is blocked in his phone. The text that I approved has been deleted because if he kept it, it would make ir so they could still contact him. I checked this with our 2 phones and it is true.

Also if he's been lieing his entire life, could he still lie and pass a polygraph?

Also what when he takes a poly and it says he never touched these women. Then what?

A polygraph appt is available today in the next few hours. I have about 12 questions. Im trying to think of more.

Now he says he'll do it and when he passes he wont speak to me for a week. He is beyond pissed anout the exposure. Pretty much says that I better not do anything or he is going to tell the entire world too. Wtf?!

I would schedule it tomorrow. You can only ask 3-4 true/false questions on the actual test so you need to get all your questions answered BEFORE you go. You need to ask all your questions FIRST and then have the polygraph tester confirm key questions.

Do you understand? The polygraph only tells you true/false. It will not give you FACTS. So you need to get the facts from him BEFORE and then confirm his answers on the polygraph.

I have already asked all the questions yesterday to which he has denied everything

It says I can only ask 3 questions

He also says he is going to air all our dirty laundry. Any bad things that I have done, even before we were married. Like physical fights and horrible name calling.

Help! Its in 30 min. Cant get appt for tom. They aren't available its good friday.

When I said to schedule it today - I meant to at least get it scheduled and give your WH the questions. Not that you had to go today.

Reschedule for Monday.

What questions did you ask your WH?

Like MelodyLane said, these are not the actions of a remorseful WH.

This is not hat in hand on bended knee.

I hope you are prepared for more "truth" to come out.

I asked him if he had sex with either of them, if he touched their naked bodies, if they touched him. If he had sex with anyone since we've been married. If either of them were in his hotel room. If he kissed either one.

Made an appt for 11, we are here and the polygraph person isnt here. I drove he slept in the car.

He isn't remorseful, Its payback for things ive done.

He also asked prior to leaving if we were driving separate so he isnt stranded. Yet here we are waiting and he is calm as a cucumber.

I feel like you're not listening and just doing your own thing, newtopia. It's been a struggle the entire thread.

Keep in mind that your "own thing" has already led to a crippled marriage.

I am still baffled that you argued with us about getting evidence (as ML pointed out) while at the same time concealing the fact that there was already an affair in your marital history. I think at one point you were even indignant and said something like this entire forum just screams "affair" at everyone.

This isn't good....

I'll totally admit it, I was in total and utter denial and disbelief when someone mentioned affair. What am I doing on my own?? I appreciate the help.

I have a recommendation newtopia. The good folks here can guide you through this methodically. Right now you are kind of all over the map with establishing and implementing your plan. Not to worry, it's hard as most of this stuff is counter-intuitive and/or most everyone lacks the experience to know what to do when.

My recommendation is that you work through your plan with someone that will guide you. Either the Harleys or one of these great posters. You discuss the plan with them, you tell them exactly how you're going to complete each key element in the plan as you are ready to do each logical step, get their agreement that you understand exactly what needs to be done and then you go execute it.

As for your H's behavior. I'm sorry he feels that way. Seems he has a bit of an anger issue and isn't remorseful for his actions. In his mind you're the reason he did what he did. We ALL know that is NOT the case. He did what he did because he has no idea how to have a great marriage.

You have to have a response to his outbursts. The good people here will provide you with the statement you should make to him.

Something along the lines of ...

"I'm sorry for the things I did that deteriorated our relationship. I take full responsibility and accountability for MY actions in this marriage. I would like to have a loving and fulfilling marriage with you and I am willing to do the work to make it be just that.

That is why I am doing the things I am doing today. It is the ONLY way we can recover from what has happened. We have a lot of things that we need to change."

Polygraph is back
He passed. He has never had sex with anyone else besides me since we were married, no oral sex, intercourse in the last month. No females in his hotel room. He admitted to hugging and kissing other women in the past month.

I've never seen him so angry. He probably won't talk to me for the next week.

The anger will dissipate. You need to move him towards the plan that will help you to recover.

I suspect he'll get even madder when you tell him what else needs to be done but again you need your mantra and a statement to him that indicate where you want this to go.

. Thank you. This helps a lot.

FYI, he'd better be remorseful. If I found out my wife did this I would be EXTREMELY hurt.

Don't you dare let him think his anger is justified in anyway.

He said that the question was asked in a way that if he hugged OR kissed he had to say yes. (Which was not what I wanted asked, only kissing) He was remorseful until the flood of calls started to come in asking him about sex. It appears not many people think hanging in bars with women, texting nonstop as long as there isnt any sex is ok. I dont think he thinks this was ok, but he certainly thinks it is a much less offense. He definitely doesn't think I should have told everyone.

WRONG!! You are the victim here. Does it feel less offensive to you? I'd think not. Hurts the same no matter what. He violated your trust and his vows to you. Emotional or physical an affair is an affair.

We could all care less what he thinks of his actions. He's the perp in this not the victim. He was thoughtless, selfish when he did what he did. I wouldn't expect his current thought process to be any different as he's still fogged. Hence why you need to put into place some serious extraordinary precautions. It is the only way you'll ever get over what has happened.

BTW Newtopia,

If you think hugging is OK but kissing is not you have some lessons to learn. There is no way you'll be able to incorporate EPs into your M if you think certain harmful actions are less damaging than the next. It all aids in the progression of the destruction of the M.

Do yourself a favor. Educate yourself.

Read through the entire Surviving an Affair book.
Listen to the weekday MB radio program.
Read as many of the posts in this Surviving an Affair forum as you can.

We're all pulling for you and your M.

Is this your idea of a husband who is sincerely remorseful and committed to marital recovery?

I dont think either are ok at all. I think some things are easier to get over and move past than others.

I have been listening to the radio show for about 2 weeks, am half way through Love busters and bought the affair book yesterday. I also have his needs her needs and the workbook. I'm working and trying. I like how you said, he didnt know what to do. That is so very true. He was sad and felt ignored, I totally get it. Then he did this. I'm trying not to feel like I deserved it. I know, he could have spoken up, he could have left etc. we were both just ignorant to needs and love busters.

Our situation is very like the q&a. Cant we just forgive and forget #2. My husband has probably been in the red for quite some time now.

No, but until he does it, its just his anger coming out. He feels like since he has never told anyone the witch I could be, that I shouldn't have told anyone about this.

Newtopia, your next step is present this plan of recovery to him. If he will not get on board with this plan as outlined in the checklist AND give up all his opposite sex friendships, stay out of bars, and work with you to create a happy, SAFE, romantic marriage, then you need to ask him to leave and go into plan B. His attitude tells me this is all a big joke to him and he is not serious.

So go give him that opportunity to get on board right now. He will not be serious until he sees you are serious. Now is the time to take radical measures to protect you from another affair and give you just compensation.

Do you have the exact questions and answers that were given on the polygraph?

He was hugging and/or kissing other women and HE'S pissed at YOU? That is not rational. He created this situation by lying to you.

If the fact that you have behaved badly yourself in the past by being a B* to him justifies his hanging out at bars 'till 4:00 a.m. and hugging other women, then why did he ever lie to you about it?

If he actually punishes you for not trusting him after he lied to you by not speaking to you for a week, that is proof positive that he is not serious about your marriage.

If my spouse came to me concerned that I was having an affair, my reaction would be to prove that I was not and do anything I could to reassure him and strengthen our marriage -- not to punish him for his concerns. You H is definitely not acting like a man who cares about his marriage or his wife's feelings or concerns.

Exactly. Nope he sure isn't acting like he cares at all. Even though he admits what he did was an emotional affair he is angry that everyone thinks it was sexual. I can't rationalize with him and make him empathize that it is still just as bad.

The question said kissing and hugging. It was explained to him that even if part of the question was true he had to admit or it would be like he lied. If he stated anything other than yes or no it would be like he lied. So he admitted to hugging but not kissing because the question said both.

So you don't believe the results Melody?

It was never asked if he kissed another woman besides me in the past month.

I gave him the opportunity to get serious. After a couple hours he came to talk to me. He agrees with all my requests. He is going bowling tonight to which he told me his teammate was going to drive him to and from to which I disagreed. (Teammate still drinks too) yep so he's going to drink away his sorrows tonight. I am going to pick him up instead. (Im going to show up early) I also requested he sleep in our bed, to which he also agreed.

he has classic mr nice guy syndrome, everyone knows he isn't perfect now and he has to deal with it. I told him to tell whoever he wants about anything I do. Currently there wont be anything to tell. 🙂

Im looking forward to this.

"When the fog has finally lifted, and the source of addiction no longer has control, the value of exposure is usually conceded by the addict himself."

Really? Is that how the book describes a "Mr Nice Guy" type of man?

I'd burn the book.

It will probably take longer than you expect for the fog to lift.

Is a relationship emotional if there is physical contact? Is a relationship emotional if there is sexting?

In your eyes, is what your husband had an emotional affair? Do you think an emotinal affair is harmless?

Again his actions don't back up his words.

He SAYS he agrees with all of your requests and then he goes out bowling and drinking?

I wouldn't put up with very much more of this. It's an IB (Independent Behavior). It's breaking EPs (extraordinary precautions). He shouldn't be doing ANYTHING recreationally without you and he most certainly shouldn't be going out drinking at night with his buddies.

Newtopia, do you understand this??

No. That's your positive spin on his IB and lack of POJA, doing things he wants at his wife's expense -----> which will not lead to a happy marriage, period.

No need to psychoanalyze it further.

So what am I supposed to do? Follow him to bowling and babysit? Not allow him to go? That is beyond controlling behavior. Who says that is healthy? Dr Harley certainly hasn't said anything like this.

This just confirms what I said before, you are not serious about recovery. Why in GODS NAME would your husband be going alone? Your marriage is on the rocks and you are supposed to be creating a romantic relationship. So your husband goes out with his buddies - without you??

Are you aware that you are married? Your H will never get serious until you get serious.

The posters here take your marriage MORE seriously than you do. You have wasted valuable time of volunteers on this forum.

Independent behavior is VERY UNHEALTHY. Your husband is controlling YOU, not the other way around.

Are you really married?

Also...

You never anwered my question about his secret bank account and credit card. Did he give you access to those records? What is he going to do about those accounts?

Also...

I see you said he "blocked" the OW. That is not appropriate. A block can be worked around very easily.

He should change his cell phone number and anything else he used to talk to these women (such as email).

]
This is the reason you are in this mess. You have mother/son relationship with a grown man and not a romantic, integrated marriage. Your husband is not in love with you and he won't be unless and until you work together to create a great marriage. And that does not mean going out alone like he is a teenager or a single man and you are hims momma.

Are you actually legally married?

Ok so I ask all these questions on here, I come here for help and advice and this is what I get?

You didnt even answer my question. What am I supposed to do?

Also of course I am married!! I stated that in my first post. Why would I be here asking for help and then lie?

I also posted to you about his poly results to which you never replied.

Did he just block her number? When is he changing all contact information?

And how about these?

Purely emotional as well?

He spent a night at OW house, and he doesn't know the address?

There are many inconsistences in this thread.

The text about him "giving his D*** to everyone" and poly result with no sex are highly contradictory. It's your choice what to believe, of course...

Here would be the course of action MB would hope you would take:

This one is critical. Put in all EPs that will eliminate the opportunities for affair activity. Eliminate all contact with the OW and other women in general. Go through the EP checklist and insure they have ALL been implemented. If you're unsure of the items on the list or someone tells you you're falling short ask specific questions and get very direct advice on what to do.

While you are implementing EPs and forever forward be on your best behavior. No AOs, no DJs. Be enjoyable to be around. The fact he's thought of you as the "B" HAS to change. He'll buy in if he's sees what's in it for him. What's in it for him will be to have a wonderful spouse who is a treat to be around.

Your first step after putting into place all EPs is to perfect POJA.

Seeing everything that has happened while he's been away from you do you think it is a good idea to have him going off by himself? Are you truly enthusiastic about that? Your answer should be NO. So what do you do? YOU DO NOT implement control. You negotiate with him a better solution. You implement POJA.

Do fun recreational things together NOT apart.

"I am not enthusiastic about you going out alone where there is drinking and opportunities for you to be around other women. I would like to discuss some alternatives that would make us both happy.".

"I would also like us to work at finding plenty of very enjoyable things for us to do together."

POJA is something most people really do not understand how to do and how it really works. They tend to think of the exercise as a control mechanism but it's not, it is a protection mechanism. Why would any loving spouse want to do something that they know hurts their spouse? (even if it's just little hurt). By coming to a joint agreement you work together to protect each other, protect and grow the relationship.

Did you read my post?


I just wanted to make sure because it doesn't seem that way.

It is up to you to hold your husband accountable and you are not doing that. If he won't give up his independent, single man life and commit to making radical changes, then you should separate. Instead of him going out bowling, you should be going out on dates together.

There are many other holes in your story that others have pointed out. Hopefully you will answer them.

This is the most exhausting case I have ever seen because you are so eager to go back to the status quo where everything is swept under the rug and you ignore every red flag.

If he goes off like that, he is controlling HER. It is not "controlling" to ask your spouse to stop doing something that makes you unhappy; it is controlling to FORCE your spouse to put up with something that makes her unhappy. He is controlling HER.

His single lifestyle falls under extraordinary precautions and should be ELIMINATED. That is not negotiable.

Thanks This helps.

I have a plan and stated it to him. He is in 100% agreement. No women friends, no drinking without me. No bars, ever. No overnights apart. We are planning on spending all our time together. I have every account he has; sign ons and passwords. Policy of joint agreement, remove all contact. Total honestly.

He saw the one woman 3 times. (The other once) I do believe him. Maybe some people don't think I should but I do. He never did anything physical with her except dance with her twice. He says he has zero feelings for her and never did. She was someone to talk to and to listen to him(exactly what he was missing from me)
We are going to talk more about this for the next week and never talk about it again. I also asked him about the woman from ten yrs ago and he explained what he remembered. It was pretty emotional with her. (I knew this). Nothing physical except kissing with her

He also asked me to fill out the emotional needs questionnaire. He filled his out and gave it to me on Tuesday I believe. We are moving forward.

Newtopia,

It sounds like he is on-board. I'm hopeful that he is sincere.

Now the work begins.

Maintaining all EPs. If you've completed them all. Others will comment on that.

POJA
PORH
Undivided Attention
Eliminate LBs

If he's willing I think you and him should read through a few of the good Dr's books.

Surviving an Affair
Fall in Love, Stay in Love (a great guide that brings everything together)
His Needs, Her Needs
LoveBusters

I've read the latter 3. Good stuff.

Is he writing the NC letter for you to send?

Is he changing all contact information?

He sent them a text. A letter is impossible, he doesnt know their last name nor address.

They never knew his email or fb or even his last name. (Of course they know it now because of my exposure letter)

Also at this point I'm trying to decide on needing to change his # or not. It was contact for a week, he has zero feelings for either.

I have 3 of those now. Started with LB, and now working through the first one.

We are trying to help her with the "work". However she keeps ignoring posts which makes it next to impossible to help.

Off the top of my head,

Posts that have been ignored REPEATEDLY

1) changing of phone number (blocking does not work)

2) did he give you access to his secret/private bank account and credit card?

If you don't want help, then just say so.

Title of your thread

"I'm new here and need help!"

There goes that snotty, demanding tone again...

There are two articles I'd like you to read, in order to get an idea of what your marriage should be like from now on, in terms of recreational activities and hobbies. Your husband's preference to go bowling weekly without you is a problem in at least two ways:

1. It allows for him to meet another woman who will meet his key emotional needs. This has already happened, as you well know, with his habit of drinking alone in bars. When that happens, he is having an affair.

By the way, is that what happened with his first affair many years ago? What were the circumstances of that? Did he go out alone, and meet a woman he could talk to? And when you say it became very emotional, what does that mean? What did you discover them saying to each other? Did he fall in love with her?

Also, how did that affair end? How did he manage not to see or speak to that woman again, if they were so emotional involved with each other? Did it have a clean ending, or did it drag on for ages? Was she married? Did she live near you?

2. You are both squandering an opportunity to spend your most enjoyable times together with each other, doing something that you both enjoy. If you've read all the articles about emotional needs on this site, you will know that being together when you are happiest is the fastest way to create romantic love. Contrary to what a lot of other people think, romantic love does not exist by itself, spontaneously creating happiness when people are together. People fall in love when they are dating, because they spend enjoyable time with each other. However, as many married couples find, when kids and long working hours come along, and they cease to spend time together, their romantic feelings about each other disappear. Their marriages become unhappy, and they become ripe for affairs.

This article explains the importance of spending recreational time together, and not going off separately and spending it with other people. Even if your husband is not having an affair at the bowling alley, the point is that he is not having an affair with you, and he should be.

The second article explains why it is a waste to spend recreational time with anybody other than your spouse.

I hope you will see when you have read these that it is not about nannying him. It is not about timing how long he is away, phoning or FaceTiming so that you can check up on him while is there, or banning him from going. That is what MelodyLane meant when she said that you should not build a mother-child relationship with him.

The point is that you you need to express unhappiness with his having this alone time - these boys' nights out which are his escape. He should not be seeking to escape from you, and he should not be doing his favourite things without you. There is no point in being married if he has feelings that he needs to escape from you.

You must not lecture him about the wrongness of what he is doing, but you should ask him to stop, and suggest that you change your lifestyle so that you go out together 3 or 4 times a week. He has had at least two affairs while living his independent life, and that life needs to stop, for good.

I said above that I have all access to all acounts. (I already looked it up and it lines up with $ that he told me all about)

I'm not sure about the phone # change yet. I'm thinking.

He has been bowling on a mens league for 15 years. We were bowling on a doubles league but just stopped that this season. It was my decision. He would refuse to do anything else with me and I rather use two nights a month for one on one dates. (Which of course rarely happened)

I guess I'm not enthusiastic about him bowling once/week. I think we both allowed each get used to doing things alone. We are working at changing that. One step at a time.

Too I just dont know if it makes me unhappy that he bowls once/week. Enthusiastic? No but not unhappy. He enjoys competition with other men. I'm in women groups and I enjoy those too.

It's up to you, newtopia. I'm only telling you what Dr Harley advises, and trying to show how using Marriage Builders would transform your marriage. Nobody can force you to do anything.

Are you going to answer my questions about the other affair?

The principle is that you spend the most enjoyable hours of the week together. This is how you fall in love again. This must be the #1 priority of there is no glue to hold you together. Escape together.

The added benefit is this also blocks other women from him.

I can answer what I know. I don't know how he met her. I believe at cards.( he would go out and play cards/darts, bowl). This was 10 years ago. Our son just turned 1. I was working afternoon shifts twice/week and every other sat. I dont even know how I found out, I believe the texting again. It went on for maybe 3 months. I requested many things like the list here including changing his number and not going out anymore. Of course we didnt have any of the tools here. He admitted to me just in the past few days of talking that he was in love with her. I'm not sure if he admitted that before or not but I knew. What he liked about her was her confidence, knowing what she wanted in life but wasn't judgemental or critcizing like I am. I don't believe it was a clean break. I remember him moving out for a few months and them coming back. I don't believe she was married and she lived within 30 min(prob less) away. I knew it ended because I spied on him and we did things together. I changed to day shift once/week.

Currently I am still dealing with my husband and every male he knows thinks that because he didn't actually have sex with someone else that its not that big of a deal. He has had many of his male friends say this to him. Since I exposed an affair when everyone thinks SEX is an affair he is still angry at me about this. He has told everyone that there was no affair. He doesn't deny what he did was wrong, but in his words not nearly as bad as sex.

Meanwhile he has told his friends that he passed a polygraph. He's been off work since the exposure and going back tomorrow. I'm expecting him to be pretty mad tomorrow. He's fb friends with a few from work so they know too.

He still acts like a child at times and does things like leaving without telling me to my face. (Because I am at home working and asked to not be bothered).

We made a weekly plan and he never put anything on it for today. Then he decides to grocery shop, left without letting me know and then went bowling and put a note in the kitchen. I called him just before he got there and asked why he didn't let me know. He said cause I couldn't ne bothered while working. So pretty much if I'm not available he does as he pleases. However he did say do you want me to come home and I said yes, so he did. He was meeting two friends and had my son too

We are getting on each others nerves. I'm pmsing and at one point this evening I just wanted to leave for an hour. He says im not in enthusiastic agreement so I sit in my car and scream and cry. (To his agreement)

This is so difficult.

On top of all this his emotional needs says he would like me to lose 50lbs.
I'm just beyond overwhelmed and feel like a failure. My love busters are the worst and I dont meet his needs. Not to mention he doesnt meet any of mine so I feel like I'm hugging and kissing a stone. 😢 I'm not sure I'll ever be happy with him ever again.

Have you considered temporary ADs to help you through the most difficult times?

What are you doing that is fun? Can you make a getaway trip to help build the Love Bank?

What are ADs? Maybe the weekend of the 8th. I mentioned it to him and he didnt sound like he cared to much.

Did the two of you implement POJA? He doesn't seem to care about POJA on other topics. He seems to be using it as control/punishment, not to gain a happy marriage.

Yes we did. I'm sure he would say it's possible to your statement because he feels that Im controling him in regards to the policy too.

Just a few hours before that when he left to go bowling (without even discussing with me) when he asked "what do you want me to do, come home?" I said yes. Sure even typing this out I feel like I'm dealing with a bratty child.

Of course he had to post on his fb page this morning that he is frustrated about going to work today. Because everyone thinks he had sex with another woman. Yep this is his main concern.

Again he says I've been terrible for so long and he never tells anyone how I am.

Also he said in a group text to friends yesterday that his reasoning for talking to women in bars is so he wouldn't be screamed at for once. I'm not even going to deny it.
Our love busters have been in full force for quite awhile before all this happened.

I just feel like I'm expected to be perfect for years all the while not getting my needs met and him with constant love busters towards me. Sure makes me feel resentment and fake.

newtopia, like I have told you before many times, he is not serious in the least about recovery and you should plan to separate. I am not sure why others are telling you to learn "POJA" when you have a spouse who is still not committed to this program in any way. When a wayward husband will not commit to recovery, you don't stay together, you separate. That is DR HARLEY'S standard advice in these situations.

You are being controlled and gaslighted. He controls you when he demands that you endure his independent behavior and he is blaming his affairs on you. He is in no way committed to recovery.

The reason you have this mother/child relationship with your husband is because of his independent behavior. There is no equality here and won't be until you change your reaction to his childish behavior. He goes off like a teenage boy, and you react. When you do that, he reacts like a boy.

Instead of fussing at him, I would tell him that your marriage won't work unless he follows extraordinary precautions and stops going off doing his own thing. The alternative is to have a completely integrated leisure lifestyle where you do everything outside of work together. I don't believe he will ever do that. And if he won't do that, then the answer is to separate because his independent lifestyle will lead to MORE affairs.

Surely, you are smart enough to see he is not serious about recovering your marriage.

What you are saying is partly true. But this is what I really believe it is...

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? Letter #2

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042b_qa.html

In this case I'm the husband and he's the wife.

He's doing all of this and feeling the way he feels because of my actions in the past. I've been demanding and had angry outbursts throughout our entire marriage, and been judgemental. I'm not saying he didn't have other choices but this is why he did what he did, and why he wanted to move out in the first place.

If I tell him to stop going off and doing his own thing, he views it that I'm trying to control him.

Read this Please Explain Gaslighting

Interesting. I've never heard this term before. Passive aggressive, I've heard of that and in recent past have thought he was like that.

WOW I'll have to read more on that.

So let him know if he doesn't stop and doesn't commit to recovery of your marriage that it is time to separate. He can go off and do his own thing living someplace else. This is NOT a marriage at all cost program and your husband is NOT serious in any fashion.

Instead of reading, have a discussion with him TODAY and tell him he has to make radical changes in his lifestyle for this work. That starts with eliminating his single lifestyle and creating a integrated happy marriage.

newtopia, are you going to do this^^^^?

ADs= Anti-depressants. They can temporarily help you stay calm so you think and act rationally.

I don't know at the moment.

He has since posted on his fb "And... Here.... We.... Go...." feeling frustrated, and then a few hours later "Not the responses I was expecting..." feeling satisfied. He also texted me in all caps..

"You told my bosses daughter in law are you kidding me? I'm trying to keep a level head right now."

Now mind you, this is the 22 year old woman he works with every day. OF COURSE I TOLD HER!

We have a therapy appt tomorrow evening that we both thought about cancelling. But since finding out that the guy knows about MB I'm keeping the appt. I guess he'll have to decide on his own to come or not.

What does serious look like to you guys? Yes I guess I'm so clouded at being gaslighted I don't know what is up or down anymore. I talked to a mutual female friend this morning who agreed with everything I thought that he is in the wrong, there's no excuses. and she KNOWS me. She knows how I can be and that it doesn't matter that I don't deserve this. Everyone has choices.

Here's what I found.. I don't feel this way at all. I don't apologize, I dont withhold information, I dont feel depressed.

#1, sure, #2 yes. I've been highly sensitive since I was born.

Here are the signs of gaslighting:
1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself
2. You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day.
3. You often feel confused and even crazy at work.
4. You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend,, boss.
5. You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.
6. You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior to friends and family.
7. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
8. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.
9. You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.
10. You have trouble making simple decisions.
11. You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed.
12. You feel hopeless and joyless.
13. You feel as though you can't do anything right.
14. You wonder if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/ wife/employee/ friend; daughter.
15. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.

And you have choices too.

You can wring your hands and continue to complain daily about his IB and non-compliance with EPs...with the nice added benefit where he uses MB to punish and abuse you vs its intent, which is to build a integrated happy marriage.

Or you can make a choice to separate until he is willing to get on board with recovery. And raise the bar high and not accept these crumbs he is tossing at you.

This is the time to do it. The longer you let this go on, the less chance you have at a recovered marriage.

I hear you. Honestly I don't feel strong enough to listen to him tell me that he isn't doing anything wrong and I feel I can't list them all out.


Here's the anxiety again. Let me think about this and list it out.

We've already told you.

Remorseful attitude
Implementation of EPs
Removal of love busters like IB

This is not recovery. This is dragging a kicking and crying wayward up the hill while he fights you every step of the way.

Welcome to your future unless you let him know (via separation) that you are not going to settle for this.

It's very simple. A BW who doesn't want to separate makes it complicated. We have seen this before.

And your WH KNOWS this about you.

He knows that you don't want to separate and that if he can get you into an argument you just give up and let him do whatever he wants.

You don't need to list everything out and play these games with him. You can write down what MelodyLane posted (very simple) and then end the conversation.

I love this quote from Dr Harley. It was written in response to a question from a BW whose H was ignoring her request not to attend co-ed AA meetings.


Welcome to your future.

I don't think your WH has any interest in recovery, I am sorry to tell you. Not even a little bit.

You are going to be dragging him uphill kicking and screaming the entire way for the rest of your M.

This may be how he truly feels or it may be a tactic that gets you to give in.

You have to let him know that his actions hurt you, create stress for you, make life miserable for you. How well do you do that?

Do you tell him he can't go out alone (controlling) or do you tell him how his IB makes you feel (inviting him to see your pain)?

Read what was just posted about the POJA. You cannot go through life with a partner that is willing to gain at your expense. That is no way to live your life. You are not controlling him, you are protecting yourself from the continuing harmful things he does to you.

Is he totally unwilling to POJA or does he simply not know how to negotiate? If he won't negotiate with you Win/Win(s) then you have a choice to make. If he doesn't know how I'd suggest you two get a coach to learn how.

And you seriously just took that?
BWs who just roll over and accept crumbs from a disgruntled WH don't make it.

POJA he hasn't done in full, he left to go bowling yesterday without even telling me(or discussing with me)

he actually agreed to 30 days of this and "reevlauate" then.

he has agreed to never talk to the 2 woman again, he hasn't and he blocked all communication from them.

I have looked at his phone, texts, email, fb. His group me chat with his male friends. I have access to all.

Account for time 24/7. he just told me last night if that is going to be forever he's not going to do it. he agreed and then failed to tell me of two places he went yesterday. he initially agreed and then told me after the near future he wants to reevaluate this too.

Account for $. I have access to all bank accounts/credit cards.

Spend as much time together as possible, we have. we were both off work Thurs-Sunday and have spent all of our time together. (I sent this on Thursday evening after bowling, so he did go bowling)

His response to this was.. I am open to this. However, I will not go out of my way to wake you up at 4am so we can spend time together. There are limits to what I'm willing to do here. I we need to discuss this then we can." In him meaning that he needs less sleep than I do. Typically he will only sleep 6 hours and I need more. So at times he'll be awake for 2 hours more than I am.

no overnight separation, he agreed. But he said this can't be permanent. He said that if I leave him then he still needs a job, so in a sense putting that above me?

no friendships with women, he agreed

no bars, he agreed.

total honestly. I doubt this has happened but I have zero way to prove anything and I'm not even sure if he has lied about anything or with held the truth on anything.
ok I take it back, he didn't tell me about going to the grocery store, he didn't tell me about going bowling,

and acutally on the last three his reponse was "Fine"

Then he listed his requirements...

MY REQUIREMENTS!

1. You will need to make time for me when I request it.

2. You will NEVER put our business out to the masses again. There is no wiggle room on this. It is not driven by what I do.

3. Weekly updates on your feelings as they pertain to my honesty and openness. I need you to tell me if you feel I'm being honest weekly and subjects, if any, that you feel it's lacking.

4. I'm open to hearing your feelings, thoughts, and concerns about the 123 and XYZ(omiting names) issue through April 8th. (2 weeks) After that I am DONE listening to it. I will not have this continuously thrown in my face. We have to move on.

yes he did just call what he did an "issue"


I'm scared he will never get serious. "crying"

HE'S NOT SERIOUS!!

Kick his butt out the door!

yes he truely feels that way. I believe he has zero ability to negotiate. He has called me a lawyer before. Of course, who doesn't want their way? He gives up and lets me have mine CONSTANTLY.

What if some of his ways don't create stress in me? Or am I just used to it? Or maybe I gave up. I have said that and done that about his bowling and it has not changed anything. He was at bowling when I went to the hospital to get induced. THAT has been stuck in my mind for over 11 years. Even a few weeks ago my son had a band concert and he left the concert early to go to bowling. That hurt.

Even the day after when it was discussed with my son and him, my son was sitting there crying about how he left and my husband had zero response. No empathy at all. My heart was crushed just watching my son cry about this. AND my son and him are VERY close. He did promise to never miss anything again. He never made it up to him, never hugged him, nothing. That really shook me and my son.

ok what do I do? I want to make it.

If you accept these crumbs from him, your marriage will limp along as a crippled version of what it was before his affair. And he will be unfaithful again, there is no doubt about it.

It was pretty [censored] before and has been. yes I have thought too, this will happen AGAIN. Maybe not soon but it will. yep I get it.

You show him that you won't accept a marriage where he does things at your expense anymore.

How do you show him? Not by shouting, lists and fighting. By separating.

That is your only hope.

You can't MAKE him get on board and give up his marriage wrecking behavior. You realize this, right?

You set the bar high. You separate and go to Plan B until he shows remorse and willingly (not begrudgingly) follows the program.

Of course he won't get serious. YOU are not serious. When you get serious, I predict he will too. I don't understand the point of writing out these extraordinary precautions when you know he is not serious about recovery. Agreeing to a few EPS when he is not serious about recovery is a waste of your time. He is wasting your time.

Here How to Plan B Correctly

A bit off topic. I have a sister who is 3 years younger than I am, she has been supportive of me over the past few years. She moved out of state 5.5 years ago for 3 years and came back. To make a very long story short, her husband and her got divorced, it was terribly messy. I found out she had an affair with a co-worker. I don't even remember how I found out, I'm assuming she told me.

Fast forward to last night, we are on the phone I'm telling her how frustrated I am and she says out of the blue that she's sad because she can't be with the man she wants to be with. I ask her why, she says he's married. I'm like, WTF?! She then tells me that she slept with him but its over, and laughed. She admitted he works with her. I said I was hanging up and did. Yep, that's my support system. I'm hurting even more now and all over again. just WOW People never cease to amaze me, what the hell kind of world do we live in?!

We live in a world of two parallel cultures living side by side. One culture tends to have bad marriages; one culture tends to have good marriages.

60+% of marriages experience infidelity.
40% of marriages end in divorce.
20% of marriages end in permanent lifelong separation.
20% of marriages stay married but are unhappy.

Only 20% of marriages stay together for life and are happy.

Most people don't know how to have a good marriage. Most people don't know how to avoid infidelity. Most of us live in bad marriage culture.

Join good marriage culture!

If you will do the stuff this program recommends, you will join good marriage culture. Hopefully your husband will join you, but maybe not. Of course, he never will if you do not do the things that people do in good marriage culture. There's no point to staying with him in bad marriage culture; only misery.

People in good marriage culture expose affairs. They do not tolerate demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts in marriage, let alone addictions, infidelity, secret second lives... they don't tolerate it.

Newt,

Did you email the radio show? I believe Joyce and Dr Harley addressed your email on the show yesterday. Did you listen to it?

Did you hear the piece on how Dr Harley feels in all situations of infidelity that he'd expect the man to woe back the woman. It's sort of the prototypical way relationships in our culture work.

You must realize that your H isn't going to do that, not the way he's acting right now. You're going to have to get serious if you expect this R to get any better. You're going to have to quit sweeping the hurtful things under the rug.

The crap your H pulled this week (passive aggressive crap if you ask me) should be enough to snap you into action. Right now you're H doesn't have empathy for you and continues to cast blame on you for his choices.

I'd say enough is enough. Either you two get serious and get yourselves a coach so someone can "clue" him in and teach you tools so you can protect yourself OR you simply get away from him.

"I'd say enough is enough. Either you two get serious and get yourselves a coach so someone can "clue" him in and teach you tools so you can protect yourself OR you simply get away from him."

Ok, but a "coach" cannot help someone who is not serious. A coach can guide him in this program. He is not willing. I would ask that we not give her more excuses to avoid taking tough steps.

Agree.

Getting a WH to agree to counseling when they have already agreed to basic marriage saving measures (such as implementing EP and giving up IB) who then turns around and blatantly does whatever the hell he wants, is just kicking the can down the road.

If she doesn't show her WH that she's serious, coaching is worthless and pointless.

I just listened to the radio show and you told Dr Harley you didn't believe what your husband had an affair because they were not "sexual." So the basic issue is that YOU don't take this seriously.

Dr Harley told you they WERE affairs. He also mentioned he does not believe your husband did not have sex with the woman he spent the night with. And you know he lied on the polygraph test when he said he had never had sex with another woman since you were married. You already knew he had sex with another woman when he had an affair 10 yrs ago and moved out for months.

Dr Harley also pointed out that he was having an affair when he told you 9 months ago he wanted a divorce.

ok Of course I am glad that everyone here and Dr Harley has said that it was an affair. Everyone my husband has talked to is disagreeing. So you see what I am up against.

I do NOT KNOW my husband had sex with another woman since we have been married.

Were you not the one who suggested a polygraph? What was the point of that if he denies it, poly says he is telling the truth and no one believes him??

Dr Harley specifically stated that I should not have said "affair" in the exposure but stated the facts and just explained what he did. Of course I said affair and stated the facts.

I did talk to the OW, today. She told me that he said he was in the middle of a divorce. She says he started everything, (remember she is a waitress at a bar) She said he had no ring on. (he admitted this) She said they were at the bar twice after that, (to which he admitted) Then I asked if they went anywhere else. That is when she started going on and on about how she's uncomfortable, about how I slandered her name, that I thought it was her fault and said that she was then done with the conversation.

Again, is this wrong.. YES. Proves he had sex with her? NO.

and no I have no proof or do I know if he had sex with the woman from 10 years ago. He said he was in love with her though, so it doesn't matter to me if he had sex with her or not. Its still wrong and terrible.

I have listened to the radio show like 5 times and recorded it, that is not in there at all.

This IS serious to me.

Also from what I have read, it says for give 3 weeks for plan A. Its been 1 week.

Here's how to handle that:

Don't go up against it.

Don't try to persuade your husband that Dr. Harley is right and people he is talking to are wrong. Don't argue it with him or debate it with him. Don't even discuss it with him. Don't bother listening to anyone he talks to.

Simply tell your husband that you are unwilling to tolerate his behavior and that if he wants to keep you, he will need to start living this way. Then start preparing your Plan B. Then go into Plan B. If you do those things, you will be taking your first steps to join good marriage culture. Maybe he will follow you.

Who cares? Who gives a flying flip about these details? He starts living the good marriage culture way, or you leave him. It's that simple.

Or you choose to continue to live in bad marriage culture land the rest of your life, also known as hell on earth, in which case we can't help you.

Stop running on about irrelevant details and he said she said and start doing the program.

I looked under your username and it says you've been here since March 17. That's two weeks.

Also, you should start your Plan B preparations at the beginning of Plan A, immediately. Do you have that going, yet?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

It's too late to start your Plan B preparations before Plan A, so you'll have to do the best you can. Get ready. Are you following this part of the program?

You need to be preparing for your Plan B NOW. Don't wait 3 weeks and THEN prepare.

And the actual figure is UP TO 3 weeks. It doesn't have to be 3 weeks. A 5 minute Plan A is long enough in a lot of cases. All you need to do is express your willingness to meet his emotional needs, avoid lovebusters, and build a great, integrated marriage together. You've already done that.

The way your husband is abusing you, you need to go to Plan B sooner rather than later. You are going to be a basket case very soon.

But you told Dr Harley *you* didn't believe he had an affair and as such, felt bad for exposing him. That is the issue. No one cares what other people call it. The truth is what matters.

Yes, dr Harley told you that the affair was the reason why your husband wanted to leave. He said the affair had either started or he had a plan to start the affair. He said when a man wants to separate it is because they are having an affair. He told you that. And of course your husband had sex with his ow. He spent the night with her. I realize you want to deny this because your habit of denial is so entrenched but it is true, just as he has sex with the OW 10 years ago.

Dr Harley told you he didn't believe the polygraph.

And yes, Plan A lasts 3 weeks. You have been in plan a for some time. In the meantime, you know he will not engage in recovery so you should separate from him NOW so you can go into Plan B in the next couple of weeks.

I don't have time to continue debating reality with you [have done so since you arrived] but want to emphasize that you should be focusing on asking him to LEAVE so you can go into Plan B. He should be asked now.

Did you tell Dr Harley that this is not your husbands first affair? Does he know he is a serial cheater?

A man doesn't spend the night with a woman and not have sex with her.

Well Dr Harley gave his opinion. He also said, this is mostly but not always the case. There are always exceptions to the rule. and no one is 100% right, 100% of the time.

he also didnt say he didn't believe the poly, he said they they aren't always fact. Ok, well that still doesn't mean he is lying.

What I don't understand is that no one has put any thought into the years of abuse that I have put him through that would lead him to this. Why should he just jump up and act nice to me? He feels this is payback. It is wrong, yep. Could he have done something different.. sure.

Does no on here think I could have ever been bad enough to make him want to go do this? My husband wanted out because I have treated him like crap for years. He never had the nerve to say.. you can't treat me like this and leave himself. That IS why.

I just listened and I don't get the sense that he understood this at all.

It seemed the point of your email was to outline that this was not an affair and backtrack on exposure....and Dr Harley was not having it. Dr Harley emphatically said there was an affair from the factual information you had, newtopia.

He didn't care about the things you pointed out - passed poly and or no sex, etc. He had an answer for every one of the things you pointed out about why you don't feel this was an affair.

He also added that exposure speeds up the inevitable - so that your WH continuing to punish you and be angry at exposure is basically proof that he is not serious about recovery.

Says who? I could spend the night with every man I know, every day of the week for the next month and never have sex with any of them.

The biggest problem standing in your way is YOU. You have a huge denial and BS fog issue.

You are trying to "spin" little details that are meaningless to the big picture and more importantly, you are no ignoring/muddling what Dr Harley has told you.

because he doesn't believe that I am. and not by kicking him out, by not name calling, demanding, judging, etc. or getting his emotional needs met either.

Dr Harley answered this for you and there's no reason to debate it further on the thread. If you want to dismiss his advice, then that is your perogative but no one here is going to support you.

He said your WH spent the night with this woman to have sex with her - if it didn't happen maybe it was because she didn't let it happen or it just couldn't happen due to some other circumstance.

Based on what I know from reading on these forums for 8+years, I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree you are not 100% correct. When you have numerous people telling you something, you should pay attention.

The "abuse" we are concerned with is your husbands abuse of YOU because your marriage cannot be fixed until that changes. He has had many affairs and that is very abusive. You can't fix a marriage until this is addressed and resolved first. Until he fully commits to this program, you should separate. Your past behavior is irrelevant at this point.

"Does no on here think I could have ever been bad enough to make him want to go do this? My husband wanted out because I have treated him like crap for years."

You both treated each other like crap. In order to recover he must stop and you must stop. If he will not commit fully to recovery then you should separate.

I don't disagree with that. Thanks.

You are in denial and are just being silly.

ok thanks. I am off work all next week. I will start planning on B soon as I can. We are going to therapy in a few hours.

Thanks for all the support even if I am hard headed.

We are NOT ignorant of the fact (and neither is Dr Harley) that most BWs have committed lovebusters in the marriage.

That is silly and ridiculous to think your situation is somehow different because you have commited lovebusters. That is the NORM.

That was addressed when you discussed recovery with your WH. You know that and we know that.

That does not change the advice you have been given.

Yes, he did say that. At about the 17:00 mark, he said when your H moved out, he was probably already in an affair or had a woman in mind for an affair - that that's the most common reason for a spouse to move out.

He touched on this again in the segment, more than a few times I believe.

Like I said, there is a huge denial issue going on here.

Any advice for the appt?

It's exhausting that I would even have to point this out to you - when Dr Harley told you this himself and you said you listened to the recording 5 times!!

Yeah, don't go.

Therapy is a dream come true for a wayward who wants to abuse the BS and avoid taking responsbility for their actions and start making changes in their behavior.

Did anyone here tell you therapy was a good idea?

Did Dr Harley tell you to go to therapy?

Don't waste your time.

What was the point of writing to Dr Harley if you were going to dismiss all of his advice and feedback, newtopia?

This is a serious question.

WOW the appt was made before he even moved out. Its too late to cancel without a large bill.

Honestly I never thought I would get chosen to be responded to. I would have taken much more time in writing the email. He asked many questions to which I have sent a further email to which I am hoping to get a response from.

Also MB is all pretty new to me, and I think I am still in total shock.

right, and he said, "while that is not 100% certainty, its the scenario that you often get" he also said "we can assume he's in a relationship with another woman"

I agree with plenty Dr Harley says but I'm sure he'll say that he isn't right 100% of the time.

Everyone can be wrong at any given moment. That's just logical.

Excuse me?

Do I need to point out what you said to MelodyLane??

.

You said that it is not in there "AT ALL".

Dr Harley told you his advice. Of course he can't tell you 100% - he would need a PI and evidence to do that.

Are you being serious right now??

And you are not a MAN

YNDTP

YNDTPYJHTBBA

you are fiddling while rome burns

So, is that a yes or a no? Are you going to do the program or not?

Do the program -> happiness (and help from posters here)
Not do the program -> continued misery (and I don't have time to waste on you)

And...and....and....
Your WH, in fact, DID text and stay overnight with a woman after he left.

However, you prefer to waste time debating reality with us.

Dr. Harley has studied what couples do to have a good marriage for 50 years. You don't know anything about how to have a good marriage or recover from an affair. You are in the same shape most of us were when we got here.

Are you telling us you have no intention of following Dr. Harley's program? If so, please stop posting and wasting our time, because the whole point of this board is to help people follow Dr. Harley's program. For people like me who volunteer our time, that is what we are here to do. We are not here to watch people ignore the program and continue to live in misery; we can see that anywhere.

Are you doing your Plan B preparations or not? You've only got a week at most.

Yes, and you are not correct about 100% of the time. You are wrong at most given moments. All we have to do is read this thread to see that. That's just logical. Wouldn't you Agree?

And keep in mind that your husband has been able to cheat many times and you were not able to detect it while perfect strangers on the Internet knew it immediately.

The reason is because a) you are in denial and b) you are the least objective person on this thread.

Now, are you here to follow this program or are you here to waste more of our valuable time? If it's the latter, I think they should lock this thread.

With all due respect, I have been here for 8+ years and have NEVER seen a BW as in denial as you are...to go so far as to try to muddy the waters and argue insignificant details that are meaningless to the big picture as this.

I mean are we going to debate what is IS next?

Your WH moved out to have an affair - he DID have an affair (despite the fact that you tried to convince us and Dr Harley that it was not an affair).

Exposure was the correct action (which we told you and Dr Harley confirmed)

Your WH continued anger of exposure is a sign that he was never serious about the marriage or recovery anyway (what we told you and what Dr Harley told you).

Your WH is not following EPs and is not following POJA and is continuing his IB (all of which you failed to mention to Dr Harley).

The next step is to prepare for Plan B.

Nobody is going to support anything different than this here. This is all STANDARD and NOT UP FOR DEBATE, despite your best efforts to distract us with meaningless info.

You can cancel the appointment.
How could it cost you? Is it less than 24hours or whatever the therapist said to cancel?

Even if they would charge you somehow
it
is
still
better
not
to
go.

Hello everyone. Therapy was rough, we went. Yes it would cost $175 if we didn't show up, if cancelled under 24 hours.

In reading and reading, I really feel like I haven't been totally serious with this. My pain, fog and weakness had taken over and I just couldn't think straight.

When I read and read about plan B, everything I can find talks about that it should be done when the WS will not stop contact. (which he had on his own at the time I found out)

I just found this...

"In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan."

I do believe my husband is acting just like it is stated in the affair book.
It says that the BS usually expects the WH to express guilt and remorse but that doesn't always happen.

The first place to start would be to eliminate love busters. I don't believe I have done that. (at least not to the extent I really need to)

So really we need a "solid plan". He had just told me this morning that he is coming up with his part of the plan.

I don't believe I really did plan A right at all.

I'm considering getting a coach.

We know what Plan B is intended for so don't even try that. It is intended for situations where the WS won't commit to recovery, whether than means ending the affair, agreeing to EP's or committing to recovery.

You don't need a "coach," you need to go into Plan B if your husband will not commit to this plan of recovery. Obviously a coach is not neccessary if he won't use the program.

WE gave you a "solid plan." It is the Marriage Builders plan. Your husband's only "part" should be to commit 100% to this program. Has he done that?

ok my truth, If I go into plan B, It will be all out war. I KNOW this. I'm scared.

I feel there is quite the chance he'll be gone forever if I do Plan B, but I need to tell myself 1000000 times that what is the point if he stays and won't commit? This WILL happen again, I know it. and I guess the pain of divorce and all of that will more than likely be less than waiting another 10 years for this to happen again. (and living another 10 years totally unhappy)

Its like I'm choosing between divorce or staying with someone who won't commit. Maybe I've never felt like I deserve anything better.

How often do men commit after plan B?

My XWH would certainly have agreed to a recovery plan but plan B made me realise how miserable my marriage had been and how much happier and better off I was without him. I think that is not uncommon for betrayed wives. The adultery was the tip of the iceberg, it is just hard to see that until you step away.

You will never know what he is doing, though, because in Plan B you have no contact with him at all. It is astoundingly refreshing. You don't see or talk to him or even find out what he is doing.

He can have all his arguments and war conversations in an empty room by himself, which is kind of entertaining when you think about it.

Besides, he is already waging all out WAR on you now! And you can never win this war. All you can do is protect yourself, which is what Plan B is for. If you do not protect yourself, this is going to start to take a toll on your mental health, your emotional health, and your physical health. Seriously, women who stay in situations like yours end up with compromised immune systems, post traumatic stress disorder, and all sorts of things you don't even want to hear about.


If you keep doing what you are doing he will never commit.

Your choices are:
1. Keep doing the bad marriage culture things you are doing like staying with him, and be miserable for the rest of your life (and probably end up hospitalized or institutionalized when this starts to take a toll on your health and mind - I'm not joking or exaggerating)
2. Start doing good marriage cultures things like Plan B - enter good marriage culture and hope he follows, but end up happy even if he does not

Plan B protects you from his insanity and all at war.

If you do the Marriage Builders plan (which for you means Plan B), either he will follow you and you will end up happy and healthy, or else he will not follow you and you will end up happy and healthy without him.

If you do not do the Marriage Builders plan, he will never follow you; both of you will stay in bad marriage culture and be miserable and sick for the rest of your life.

As it is now, you are not doing the program, so do not expect good things to happen, okay? Don't fool yourself that this is going to come out all right without doing the program. Dr. Harley recommends what he does because after 50 years of this he knows what works and what doesn't.

No, how can you make a plan with him? He is nuts. If you could make plans with him you wouldn't be in this mess.

You can't plan with a husband who doesn't do the program.


The biggest mistake I see you making is that in Plan A you are supposed to start Plan B preparations IMMEDIATELY.

Did you read my post yesterday where I showed Dr. Harley says this? YES or NO, please. Stop ignoring my questions. Read my posts and answer my questions so we can help you, please.


Even if you had Dr. Harley himself for your coach, wouldn't he tell you exactly what we are telling you??????

Staying with a husband who won't do the program will make you miserable and sick. A coach is not magic potion that makes it possible to stay longer with a man who won't do the program.

Nope, nope, nope.

You are a liar or you are ignoring me, because YESTERDAY I posted to you where Dr. Harley says a woman should go into Plan B if she can't get her husband to do the program.

Seriously, MelodyLane has been on this website for what, 20 years? Don't you think she knows Dr. Harley's program? Do you think we are just lying to you when we tell you that Dr. Harley recommends a wife go into Plan B when her husband won't do the program? Do we have to go waste his time and ask him to come here personally to say that to you when it's already in the article that I linked yesterday that you were too busy to read?

You need to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth and start listening, ma'am. All of your talk of therapy and coaching and telling us why you don't want to do the program is guiding you to misery and destruction.

If you don't do this program, your life is only going to get worse and worse and worse. I can promise you that. So please quit arguing and start doing Marriage Builders.

I didn't do Marriage Builders until my wife insisted I couldn't live with her any more if I continued to love bust. She got ready to change the locks (without telling me), and told me to leave. If I hadn't left, she would have changed the locks and had her dad bring me my stuff.

That was after I pissed around here on this website for two years.

100% of men do NOT commit if you tolerate them not doing the program. You have to show zero tolerance (by following the program) or else it gets worse, and worse, and worse. For the rest of your life. Which will probably be shorter than average.

Are you reading my posts, or talking?

Plan B is the only thing that might get him to change.

It is all out war now. We see this, and we want you to get out of it.


Who cares? Quit yammering on about irrelevant stuff like this. Even if you don't feel like you deserve anything better, you can still go into Plan B.

You don't have to wait till you feel better to do the plan. You will only feel better AFTER you do the plan. Feelings follow actions, which is why people who sit in the road navel gazing about their feelings get mowed down by a truck.

It is going to take at least the next 5 days to plan. How do I act towards him in the meantime? He is being nice, hugging me before work and just sent me a nice text.

Of course his bowling league is tonight. I don't even know what to say about that. Do I tell him how much it hurts me that he is going?

Thanks Markos. I do appreciate the help.

It doesn't much matter. Just get your plan made. If he tries to fight with you, don't engage.

What is it that you have to do during this time?

I am working today and tomorrow. I have only read minimum things about it. I don't even know who to choose as an IM, there aren't really any options. Write out my plan. I can't screw it up and have to make sure I'm doing it by the book.

Tell him that this will not work unless he commits 100% to this program. That means agreeing to all the elements of the extraordinary precautions checklist, all elements of the MB program, which means eliminating his independent behavior and creating an integrated lifestyle with you. He would need to commit to the policy of joint agreement which means never do anything without the enthusiastic [versus doing his own thing or reluctant agreements] agreement of your spouse. You should spend all of your leisure time together out on dates.

It also means eliminating opposite sex friendships. If he won't agree to all this, then you should ask him to move out. I predict he will accuse you of trying to "control" him. That tactic has worked for him in the past. When he says that, just tell him that you don't have the power to control him, but you can control what you endure and his lifestyle has led to affairs. Tell him you can't live like that anymore.

All of these steps are designed to protect you from another affair and create a romantic marriage. If he won't do this, then your future will be more of the same.

**you don't need to find an IM or go into Plan B until he is moved out!!** Get him out first.

Thank you. This helps a lot.

And I want emphasize this: you have not been "controlling" your husband; he has been controlling YOU. He accuses you of controlling him when you ask him to stop his marriage wrecking behavior. That is a TACTIC used by spouses who commit independent behavior.

It is like the abused wife asking her husband to stop beating her. He accuses her of trying to "control" him as a means to shut her up.

It is not controlling to ask your spouse to STOP doing things that make you unhappy. It IS controlling to FORCE your spouse to endure his thoughtless behavior. So...he has been controlling YOU.

So when are you going to have this conversation with him?

Mind you, this is the conversation that you already should have had when you two decided to work on recovery and you repeatedly told us he agreed to "everything".

Not sure what happened there but write down what MelodyLane posted to you and stick to the plan - don't deviate as I am assuming you did last time.

Right. And if he agrees to recovery and then turns around and goes drinking and bowling with friends, you don't browbeat him, engage him in a fight while you try to "convince" him to do MB.

You start packing his things.

OK. Thank you.

I went back through to see if I had any old emails from the last time, and I see where things when wrong. Same old, same old. Passive-aggressive, turning the table and blaming things on me. At one point after I found out, I was still checking up on him and he was mad that he had to hurt the OW and for what when I wasn't going to trust him afterwards.

I'm so done here. I refuse to make the same mistakes again this time and spend another minute living like this.

If I talk to him today and he is still not on board, then I ask him to move out right then and there?

or do I wait and hurry up and do the planning for plan B.


I feel like so many more bad things can and will happen if I'm not prepared and ready for when/if he leaves.

YES.


Get him moved out FIRST and then you can plan for Plan B. You can't go into Plan B until he is gone.

newtopia, MelodyLane and the other posters here will help you cope with everything that will happen when he leaves. Now get busy and get that guy out of there.

OK, let's say by some crazy miracle he says I'm 100% on board and not going bowling. Then what?

He will be home in 2.5 hours.

Ok, there is much more than giving up bowling. Will he agree to the policy of joint agreement? Will he agree to be radically honest?

he will say whatever he thinks I want to hear.

I actually have our appt from yesterday on record and I'm going over it and this is the usual..

He SAYS he will do everything I ask, and I can't really prove that he isn't doing.

I'm telling you some of these examples would amaze anyone. He is king at changing the subject, deflecting etc.

Actually if you pay careful attention to his responses, you will know immediately. An example is:

"I need you to change your contact numbers"

Someone who intends to do as you ask will start to talk about logistical issues.

Someone who has no intention of doing this will tell you that you are being controlling or agree fast and then change the subject.

So he has agreed to everything already? There is nothing to "prove" if you are with him. Just make plans to be together all the time.


I don't know what this means.

Ok, but his intentions will be demonstrated by his actions. We don't care what he SAYS, we care what he does.

Just AGREEING to something is not enough. Doing that thing is what is required.

Yes, you and we can prove he isn't doing the program. He isn't following the Policy of Joint Agreement - he is balking at it. He isn't giving up disrespectful judgments - he is calling you controlling. He isn't providing transparency either, is he?

You can prove he isn't doing the things Dr. Harley recommends.


Quit getting caught up in debating him about it. Quit paying attention to what he says. All that matters is what he does.

Hi everyone. This is very difficult for me to type.

My husband and I sat down and I told him everything that I wanted and needed. He was calm and willing. He started to ask questions and really wanted to know the meaning of IB, EP MB in general. When I started to read to him all about IB he hesitated. Then he said no. I went on to say then I want him to move out and a separation. He sat in utter disbelief. We both sat there with no words for a moment. I began to tell him about how his actions are causing me so much pain.

Then he started to say, well then I will agree. I said you can't not agree and then agree one minute later. I began to talk about honesty. I told him I wanted full honesty and that I was going to let him talk for as long as he needed.(I am a constant interrupter and the therapist yesterday mentioned I did that 18 times in less than an hour) So there I sat, mouth closed. My husband hesitated and then began to talk. I believe he talked for 60-90 minutes. He began to talk in great detail about my abuse towards him. I am not in denial about this.(at least not anymore) I believe that up until now I had thought I had been better, but clearly just dynamics have changed, and wording has changed. Tone, meaning have been the same.

He had told me the very first day we met I called someone an idiot right in front of him. (we worked together) He told me at one point early in our relationship (when we were dating a bit over a year) that he started to write down every single time I called him a name.(idiot, stupid etc) Over the next 7 months the total was 1300 times. I have talked down to him in front of our sons. I have criticized him more than anyone should ever have to put up with.
He cried like I have never seen him cry in my life. His beloved grandmother(the person he was the most closest to in his entire life) had died when we were dating for 18 months and I don't remember him crying like that then. I have only seen him cry a handful of times. He let it all out.

I sat there, did not speak and let him finish. I am truly disgusted, embarrassed and saddened to hear all of this.

I am not shocked but clearly much of it in the beginning I was completely blind to. He told me that pretty much every single person he has ever known has told him that what I do to him is wrong. Even my own mother.

I offered to move out. He cried some more and than said no.

I need help. I cannot and will not live any longer acting like this anymore. My husband is in no way shape or form stupid or an idiot. I have always had anger issues.(that has changed drastically over the past few years) I grew up with an alcoholic father who acted the same way. I'm the alcoholic who doesn't drink.

So to sum it up, this is why my husband wanted to move out. To get away from ME.

I really appreciate everyone's help here. I'm not sure if there is help in this forum for people with my problems.

My plan right now is to find the right therapist and read as much as I can about verbal abuse. He also plans to get in therapy too. If I don't make a drastic change by May 1st. I'm moving out.

Wow. He really did a number on you.

What is your question for the forum? Your posts indicate that you are not here to receive guidance in the MB program. As such, this thread has become a needless distraction. Unless you have a question about the MB program, we will be locking this thread.

Thank you,
Denali
MB Administrator

Well since it seems no one believes me this isn't the place for me. I'm sorry I bothered everyone.