Hello Everyone,
I have read this website from nearly top to bottom and and have a question about exposure.

Some background:

I'll "try" not to drag on with a long story, touch on the main points, and leave my question for the next post.

I am 45 and my wife is 42.
We have 3 children age 13 to 21.

She moved to her mothers home, around 10 months ago, with very little to no explanation, stating she did not know if she wanted to return.
For a while before this happened, and for some time after, she would make comments about "Not being happy".
I would plead with her on nearly a daily basis to open up on the problems she was having and got very little in return.
Basically repeated statements of "I am not happy" or would tell me of problems that in retrospect were minor
(really no larger problems that what [I believe] any other married couple have in their lives as well)

She would and still does constantly bounce back and forth from "We can work it out"... to... "I am not coming back".
With a lot of "I don't know what I want" statements in between.

I have gotten her to return home several times, and when she does, she becomes very close to the person and personality that I have always loved and recognized, and is (seems?) more open to talking and working things out.
But, for nearly this entire time, these returns to home would only last a day or two and she would come up with reasons as to why she had to return to her mothers.
(need change of clothes, forgot work supplies, mom needs help with chores... ect) and that she would return later.

But, later always becomes days to weeks on end and when I was/ am able to convince her to return, she is this other person again and I/ we have to start all over from square one. Up and down constantly.

We are both part of a large charity organization and for a couple years (2013-2014) held titles in that organization.
She was elected to the top position in this organization and able to appoint an assistant (considered the second position down), a man recommended to her by another person.

Although her and this OM live on opposite sides of the globe, a "friendship" instantly developed between them.
(Reality is, an affair instantly developed between them)

Just before, and several times after taking these positions, she started going on trips that were supposedly funded by promotional people that work with our organization. The explanation was always that because they held the top two positions, they were the two chosen to travel to various destinations for promotional work.

Over the last couple years, I first had people I did not even know within our organization contact me and say it appears they are more than friends. Later it became people we knew closer that would say the same. I would seriously question her on what if anything is going on and each time it was met with outrage and statements that I was crazy for even asking.

"These others did not know what they were talking about."... "He is my friend (later it became "best friend")... "He lives half way around the world! How can you think that is even possible!"

I believed it each time, trusted her completely and was never told of any serious problems between us, eventhough asking many times.

Later, after we left these positions, it was already "well established" that they were only good/ best friends... so (as I was told) there "should be no problem" the first (and subsequent times) I was informed that he would be flying in to visit her.

And because her mother has a million+ dollar home, (and of course we do not) there "should be no problem" that they stay there in a more comfortable environment for visitors.
In total, these plane trips by her out of state and visits by him amounted to two or three times per year, for the past three years.

I believed her because (1) The fact is... he does live on the other side of the planet. (2) He is also married with two small children. (3) The various trips were in the public eye. (4) They were staying under her mother's roof where an affair would not be possible.

I was wrong on everything.

- The get-away trips and visits overcame the distance issue.
- The fact 1000's of people know who they both are was actually used to hide the affair.
- While visiting her at her mothers, they would rent hotel rooms in neighboring towns, which overcame that issue.
- Him not caring about his wife overcame the married with children issue.

One month ago was the tipping point.
She came to me with last minute news that her mother and her brother were to travel to the other side of the country, to visit church friends that had moved there.
That her brother found out only days in advance that he could no longer go and that her mom asked her to instead take the other ticket and help her with the the trip activities and that is why I was only finding out days in advance.

This was so out of the ordinary that I could no longer bring myself to believe anything that was said over the last few years.
I had never known any of her family to ever travel, in the 25 years that I have been with her.

So, one night, about a month ago, I decided to investigate.
I instantly discovered that she had changed her passwords on all her accounts (Email, Facebook, Skype... ect).
But at some point in time she had logged in and out, here at home, without actually removing/ deleting the the log-out page.
Her password still in the open. It was just a matter of clicking "Enter" to start seeing the evidence, and the same password was used for all her accounts.

I first learned that the latest trip was in fact a week long vacation to Disneyland for the two of them.

Within only a couple hours, I found airline ticket stubs from several of the trips, rental car receipts, hotel reservations
* Always 1 room with 2 guests. I had always been told there were two rooms rented, Hidden Paypal account, emails, second bank account, Skype conversations.

I also found the entire Facebook chat between the two of them over the last three years.

(which often delved into their talking about their enjoyment of intercourse with each other).
Sometimes bordering on a juvenile online sex chat.

Just a large amount of evidence, including smoking gun, self taken photographs of themselves in bed together.

I saved, labeled and cataloged everything.

Like I mentioned I have read nearly this entire site, and in all of this time had only one angry outburst.
This happened the moment of finding out. It was coincidentally one of the times that she was at home.
I woke her up from sleep late at night, yelled, called names, said I knew what has going on and told her to leave.

Once she knew that I knew, it was somewhat of a splash of reality on her and she has actually spent more time at home in the past few weeks than in the last several months. Although it is still only a day or two at a time, before the excuses arrive to leave again, and the up and down cycle continues.

At the same time she is more easily prone to anger.
What were once normal conversations she somehow finds a trigger word to cause an angry blow up.
I have never raised my voice nor have I become angry even one time since that first night of finding out.

We do talk (briefly) every day, sometimes in person, but mostly by phone and I have gone to her moms recently to begin the explanation that I have a solid plan to heal us both.

She is more receptive in person, but every night she is not at home, she continues the online portion of the affair.
Like she has nearly every night for three years.

She has since changed her Facebook and Skype passwords yet again and I am no longer able to access anything.
She knows I have read the entire conversations they have had up to this point, and that I am aware of what has been and is still happening.

The conversations between ourselves still bounce from her apparently understanding that it is wrong and needs to end,
Where hugging, kissing, and "I love you's" are shared between us... to the opposite far side side of... "If I don't like it than tough for me"... "It is none of my business"... "She is not coming back", are things I am also often told.
Up and down constantly.
Sometimes even in the same day.

The most recent development is that one of the last emails I was able to see between them, talked about his plans to come again and visit her this summer.

Welcome to MB.

What is your question about exposure? I can't see whether you asked it in this post.

I do want to save this marriage.
She is the love of my life.
Together for 25 years, married for 23.
The mother of our children.


My current questions are these...

I am ready to expose this.

As of right now those who know are: Her, me, our children, and my parents.

I have cataloged all of the evidence and she has admitted to what is happening.

I have only shared enough of what I know to her to have her realize that I know just about everything
that is and has happened.

I found the OM's wife on Facebook, his sister and an unidentified older relative.

I saw the suggestion here to upload all the evidence and share the link with those individuals I can find.

The trouble is, do I limit it to that or go bigger?

We don't really have "close friends with influence", but due to our charity work, we do have 100 "close acquaintances"
that we see in person semi-regularly. A few of these could be considered "semi-friends".

Do I tell all of them?
Make a statement on our local private FB page ? (100 people)
Make a statement on our local forum? (200 people)
Make a statement on the local forum where this OM resides? (100 people on his side of the world)
Do I make a statement on the worldwide forum? (nearly 10,000 people)

* Both of them are well known by every individual whom might see it... no matter what choice is made

Do I share the evidence with all I speak to?
If I do post, do I include the link to the evidence within these posts?

Do I include the explicit photos?
(There is no outright nudity, but they are clearly naked in bed and making out after just having sex)

Beside those whom I've already told, my first targets are her mother and the OM's wife.

My wife has not told the OM that I know.
I am also unsure who will actually be on the other end of the line when I try to contact the OM's spouse on FB.

Hi PTSD, welcome to MArriage Builders. A bit of unsolicited advice, please focus on brevity. Your posts are so long that your story is very hard to follow. I certainly don't have time to read your initial post. I will address these questions and preface this by telling you that you need to go read my exposure 101 thread linked in my signature.


No, expose to close friends and relatives.


No


No


No


Go read the epxosure 101 thread.


Just include enough evidence to convince the exposure target.


I would make up a list of all your targets and get it done in 24 hours. Expose to the OM's facebook contacts.

Very sorry for the long initial post. I wanted to keep it direct, but while writing I thought perhaps some background info might help to determine the answers to the questions.

I would also like to thank you, SugarCane and other members like yourselves that endure a seemingly endless line of sad stories and still keep coming back to offer advice.


I have read the exposure 101 thread... many times.
The trouble is that will be a very small list.

Regarding the OM's facebook contacts, I can only see "Mutual Friends". These only include a handful of the same, local to me, close acquaintances that I mentioned up above.
He lives on the other side of the world so I have no idea whom his other contacts are, without sending him a friend request which will surely be denied.

It means the entire list consists of:

Our children
Our Parents
The OM's spouse
The OM's sister
"Maybe" one or two others who could be considered standard friends.

I'm not sure if that is too small to make a large enough impact.

The large impact is not made by reaching a large number of people. The large impact is made by reaching the right people. The most significant person on that list is his wife. She is the one with the power to stop the affair dead in its tracks. The typical married man who has an affair and does not quickly move out of his home is a cake-eater. He is offered a bit of free nooky - or Internet sex or whatever - and he takes it. He has no intention of leaving his wife and kids. The minute his wife finds out and issues an ultimatum, he will tell your wife that the affair is over.

He might then do as my husband did with his whore, and stay in contact, burying the affair even deeper. Your nightmare scenario after exposure would be for the contact to continue, and for you to discover this two years later - as I did. That is why you need to implement Extraordinary Precautions right away - your wife needs to be willing to do this with you. If she behaves like a belligerent child, it's a sign that she has not stopped contact.

But if you are in the lucky position of being able to expose to his wife, even though they live in another country (as in my case), you need to thank the Lord and get on with it. You've got one of the easiest situations to deal with, when your wife is involved with a married man on the other side of the world.

The hope is that the other contacts will give you both much-needed support to get through this nightmare and rebuild your marriage. They, however, have limited power to stop the affair (although, as I posted yesterday, we do have cases where the unfaithful spouse's parent ripped them a new one and brought reality into their fantasy affair). The person, apart for you, who can issue an ultimatum to one or other affair partner is his wife.

Send those messages TODAY. No more delay while you ask further questions, or imagine reasons why it won't work.

If your wife and the OM are still involved in the leadership of this charitable organization, the organization's board also needs to be be informed. Your wife and OM have misused contributions to the organization.

Actually, I just re-read your first post and some of these people have known for quite some time and were telling you about the affair.

AM

It is done.
Started writing the letters just after the above post.

Those now fully aware:
My parents
Her Parent
Our Children
OM's spouse
OM's sister
And, Three of what can be considered my wife's closest friends.

The OM's spouse was eager for me to send all the evidence I had and had suspected he had been having an affair for a couple years.
She thanked me for contacting her and was relieved that she was not in fact insane (her words).

She gave him a deadline to remain married.

Honestly, it felt pretty good to know they are both getting a shake up of reality. If not the same day, then pretty close to it. Just after clicking "send" on the last letter, I actually shook both fists in the air and yelled "F- yeah!"


I have developed a few more questions about this stage...

I am pretty level headed and good at playing situations by ear, but would like to know what experienced members might recommend.

At this imidiate point, do I go silent and wait for her to contact me, after learning that others know... or do I keep trying to talk to her about a plan for recovery?

When my wife finds out other people do now know, she will ask the names of all I have told. Do I list them or keep it vauge?

I've read another recent thread here of a person making the announcement on the OM's FB page, which resulted in the OM deactivating their page.

In that instance it appeared to make progress.
Is this action truly advisable?
Is it a decent alternative when not having the OM's contact/ friends list?

Thanks to all.

Good job, PTSD! If you can expose on the OM's fb page, I would do that. I would also recommend that you expose to the charitable organizations board like armymama suggested.

As far as speaking to your wife, she will probably find out today that you exposed her and call you up screaming. You can tell her that you exposed to many, many people and ask her to end her affair.

What did her mother say? Did you speak to her directly? And doesn't your wife live with her?

I did speak to her mother in person. I did so while my wife was at work (She works on weekends).

Her mother had no idea, and was also told many false stories of what was happening and why her daughter has moved in there. Her mother is deeply religious, referenced a passage in the bible about staying with your husband, and said she would lay into her heavy. That the OM would not be allowed to be there again, if he in fact shows.

I do know however that it likely hasn't happened yet, as my wife sent a calm text to me about another subject, well after I spoke with her mother.

Oh, just thought of this...

If I expose on the OM's fb page, my wife will be tipped off almost imidiatly. This will happen before OM tells her his spouse knows, before her mother talks to her, and before she learns her friends know.

Should I wait for some of these other avenues catch up, before doing so?

edit:
Actually, I would no be suprised if he did not tell my wife his spouse knows. She did not tell him that I know.

Sounds great! I would go ahead and do this.




I would also ask the wife to call your wife. Give her your wife's cell # and encourage her to call.

Hi, PTSD.

I've read your story, and will be praying for you!

I would also inform OM's W of this website. She is going to need help dealing with this and her M, too.

Usually you send FB friends a PM with the Exposure letter.
Expose on the page is too easy to flag and remove or bury. Or just shut down the page.

Did you read this?
He exposed to those mutual friends but he can't see any others.

Thank you OlderWiser. I have also sent out prayers to those here whom are struggling.

The exposure has already had an impact. Of course not a "Hey, everything is great again!" explosion. But by our brief conversation today... it was a bit more encouraging.

* I would be happy to explain what happened, if anyone is interested.

But I have have a more time sensitive question to ask...

* I did not expose to ALL of the "mutual friends", but did to the three I knew we were closest to (Two of the three have already stepped up to show they are true friends).


My question is...
By some reverse engineering, I found a few more of the OM's friends/contacts, which are specific to him alone. A couple living in the same town.
I would like to also send them a letter.

I did not provide any physical evidence to those I've already contacted (with the exception of his wife), because I fully knew they would believe me without needing to do so.

These others I do not know if they would or not. I have never spoken to any of them.

I read in the "Exposure 101" thread of the method of uploading a bit of proof and sending a link (So as not to force evidence upon them, but it is kind of irresistible not to click a link after such a statement is sent).

I believe that some clips from the chat sessions and a few hotel receipts (all of which are dated), when combined will show an example of the affair from each of the years, would be enough to show I am telling the truth.

But I keep struggling with these "caught in the act" photos.
Do I include one of those for impact? (perhaps cropped down to be less explicit, yet still clear enough to show what is happening in the image?) Or, just go with the written material?

Thanks again everyone.

You should not post pictures of your wife having sex for anyone else to see (except his wife). No one should see your wife naked. Why would they need to actually see this, rather than read about it? How is that different from pornography? Ask your self whether that is a step that would help with the rebuilding of your marriage. I cannot see how it would.

Also, you don't know what could happen to those pictures once they are on the Internet. Do you want pictures of your wife having sex to be in circulation for years to come?

It might also be an offence to post sexually explicit pictures of your wife in these circumstances. In the UK where I live, a law has recently been passed against "revenge porn", where people take revenge on another person after they have been dumped by them, by posting explicit pictures on the Internet. I know you are not doing this for revenge, but would a jury be interested in the distinction, if your wife took you to court?

I have only known of a few occasions on this board when it was necessary to provide evidence of the affair to people other than the other spouse. The other spouse has a right to a copy of every scrap of material that you have. If their spouse was involved with someone else, they have a right to that evidence.

The rest of the world...I'm not so sure. They can choose not to believe or support you. If you've told them that you have copies of explicit conversations, and photographs of your wife and this man in bed, and they choose not to believe you, then they are not the friends that you need.

You should give the other spouse everything.

You can copy the written exchanges to the board of the charity if they ask for evidence. Perhaps surprisingly, I have not seen many employers ask for the evidence, and they need to be very careful of employment law when they discipline the affair partners. If they don't need evidence, the charity might not either. they could deal with it by interviewing the two people. Would the affair partners lie, knowing that you have clear evidence?

Everyone else can get a description from you, if they are not convinced. They do not get a front row seat to the porn show.

The images are not "pornographic" Per Se, There are no privates shown, but they are obvious.

But, thank you SugarCane, those are the very issues I have been struggling with. No revenge intended. Impact yes. Revenge or unnecessary actions, not at all.

They will not see the light of day, beyond the OM's spouse.
In fact, I likely will not include evidence to this new set of contacts at all.

Just send the same type of letter I've sent to the others already.

Thank You.

You never do a partial exposure.

You must include those people that you left off the first round of exposure. Half mule exposure is never effective.

Must get work charity exposure done.

Latest development:

I am very scared and at a loss of what my immediate next step should be.

Her first realization that people knew, was pretty calm and not much of a change in circumstances... a hair better in fact.

But tonight was the actual "response call".
(Not telephone, but through texts)

I knew it would be bad, but not quite this bad.

* I am new here, so I am not sure if listing conversions is a standard procedure, or if I only need generalizations, but here it is as a condensed version...

Me: Perhaps we can talk later. Just regular talk.

Her: You have done enough talking.
People know because you went out of your way to tell them.
What other scumbag tricks do you have up your sleeve.

M: Not scumbag. It is a path to heal.
H: Healing comes from badmouthing us to anyone who will listen?
M: Not vindictive in any way, I promise you.
H: Looks like I am not the only liar, huh
M: It is a healthy plan.
H: You are a bad person. I don't want to be with you.
M: I did not lie to anyone about anything. I said "A healthy plan to healing"
H: You treat me like crap and think I am interested in anything you have to say?
[censored] off. I am done with you.

M: You are angry. I understand. I have a clear path to help the both of us.
H: Leave me alone forever.
M: I am sorry you are upset.
H: Like hell.
M: I am really and I do have a real and healthy loving plan for both of us.
H: You don't know what those words mean.
M: I am very honest about this. I spoke a bit about this plan to you before.
But, there is much more. All great.
And, I am sorry you are upset.

- end


The "bad mouthing" were the cut/ paste letters from the "Exposure 101" thread, and personalized to the individuals in which they were sent.

- No attacks
- No slander
- No name calling
- Thoughtfully written and asking for help.

The "plan" I reference is from here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

any advice on what is my immediate next step?
She will be here tomorrow dropping off our eldest child for a several day stay.
(Although I doubt she will even get out of the car)

Do I try to explain that exposing is actually a benefit to all involved?
Her, Me, the other BS, and even the OM. That it will prove there are friends and family on both sides willing to provide support?

Do I go silent and wait for the next contact (if any)?

Do I express again that I am not being vindictive?

I am also sure our children will be told I am a mean person who took revenge.
Do I let them in on this plan/ concept and explain the benefits of exposing?

At a loss of what to do next.

Thank you again to anyone/ everyone.

I know all of the recommendations are Not to be scared, but it's hard not to when you are unsure of the next step and a wrong one could spell doom.

PTSD, you did expose to your children, right? If not, I would get that done. They should know all about the affair too.

I would not try to reason with your spouse anymore. She is in the fog and has no reason. If she brings it up again, just tell her you are sorry she is upset but you feel it was the right thing to do.

And yes, we understand we it is scary! You did a great job of taking action despite that fear. Hang in there, you are doing great!

Read this. Exposing to Children

The children do know.
In fact they were the first to know.

As far as the charity organization, all positions are voluntary.
It is a non-profit, and even the top elected positions receive no pay.

I am 100% sure there were no mis-appropriation of funds.
Those are locked down tight by a financial officer, and they never had access to them.
I am also sure the current administration, if informed, will do nothing and show no support, but will possibly use the information for their personal gain. The members of the current administration, before taking over, were hostile toward the last administration (her administration).

Member, TheRoad, mentioned above about continuing exposure to the remaining "mutual friends". This was discussed earlier in the thread. That the remaining mutual friends are individuals very local to me, (the OM is located on the other side of the planet) and are only mutual because of the organization in which we belong. None are "close friends with influence" but rather close-acquaintances.

Through that previous page discussion, I am under the impression those would be non-targets.

So, if I understand correctly, the recommendation is that I now go quiet, hold tight, wait for her to contact me, explain again that I am sorry she is upset, and move right back into discussing her willingness to hear out "The Plan".

Is that correct?


So far, the information on the main website, and the advice given here on the forum, have been right on.

I think you need to be very clear about what you are doing and why you are doing it. Your marriage will not survive if she continues her affair. It may not survive even if she stops the affair. If you want your marriage to have a chance, the affair has to stop, so you will do whatever you can to stop it and require ongoing verification of that. Really, the only thing you need to be telling your wife in regards to that is that you will do whatever you can to end the affair and provide a path to recover your marriage. Quit worrying about whether or not she likes that, it really doesn't matter! You did pretty good discussing it with your WW. Keep firm in your conviction that you want to work on recovering the marriage, and study and implement Plan A whenever you are afforded the opportunity.

Thank you and I do understand all you have said.
My concern now is if I should call her immediately, wait a while, or hold until she talks to me next.


* In response to encouraging the OM's spouse to contact my spouse, I do know the OM's wife sent my wife a message explaining that he has been lying to both of them about many things and that she too wants to remain married.

I have actually been talking with the OM's wife, sharing information back and forth, and we have been updating each other on the progress.

I guess there is a time limit to edit posts?

My above question about next contact can be forgotten.
She came home for a minute today, and I repeated the statements Tyk mentioned.

- No "revenge" or badmouthing is taking place.
- Everything I do or say is to end the affair.
- There is a path to recovery.

She was very calm and said "Okay".

So that is where you should expose next. They can boot the affairees out of the organization. I don't know of many charitable organizations, other than Swingers anonymous, that want this sort of behavior going on in their ranks.


OK, but the "close friends" does not apply to the OM for obvious reasons. Did you expose to all his known close friends and family?


I would finish your exposures and then hold tight.

Very good!!

Thank you MelodyLane.

I have been taking some time to read the situations of others so as not to feel I am taking advantage of the members here and simply focusing on myself.

By all accounts you are a major asset to this forum.

Something I am not sure on.

Exposing to the OM's remaining mutual friends is in fact exposing to regular acquaintances of ours here at home.
It amounts to "Exposure to WS contacts", him not even being a factor in that situation.

It would in fact be exposing to acquaintance/ friends of ours, that we regularly see in person... not his friends or acquaintances.
Still go forward?

If I do this, the people on that list have the same status as all of my and my wife's other local friends and acquaintances. (whom we also see in person)
Do I add them to the list? I will bring the total to near 100 local people.


The charity:
Exposing to the lead staff members of the current charity organization means I am almost certain that this will lead, through gossip channels, to 100's of additional people knowing.

Still go forward?

I am willing to talk to anyone and everyone, just would like to go about it the best way.

Yes, and this will be a good thing, because you don't want those mutual acquaintances to invite you both to the same event. And those ppl might not want to socialize with such a person.


Yes, let the staff members know so they can fire OM and your W. Keep in mind, the more people who know, the more people to hold them accountable.


These are great questions. You are doing great!

Am I remembering correctly?

Didn't this charitable organization fund a "Business Trip" for the two of them to attend?

That most certainly IS allocating funds that was used to further their affair.

I would cause such an uproar and DEMAND that at they both be released from their positions and if it DOESN'T Happen, t ::) en I would threaten and follow through with notifying the press and key or influential donors to put a stop on the "Charity" subsidizing affairs.

LTL

The organization never did fund a trip.

The claim for each trip was that notable, outside and unrelated promotional people were funding the trips, in an effort to provide "featured guests" for whatever event they were presenting.

She claimed that because they held the top two positions, they were always the two chosen to attend whatever event these promotional people were presenting.

I have found out from the OM's spouse that he was in fact stealing money from their mortgage account to pay for the trips.

Neither hold any positions in the organization any more. There is actually nothing to be "fired" from.
In fact the OM was recently suspended for unrelated reasons.

It was the latest trip that finally prompted me to investigate.
Because they no longer held any position, she could no longer use the excuse of being chosen for promotional work and came up with a completely crazy story for flying off again, at short notice.

I don't understand. Are you saying they are no longer involved with this organization? Why was this ever brought up?

**EDIT**

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to coach posters in the use of MB concepts. It is not a platform for personal philosophies. Please familiarize yourself with MB materials before posting. Email me with any questions. Thank you.

For the first two of the last three years they did hold positions. She the top position and was afforded the ability to appoint the second chair, which was given to him.

I mentioned the subject of the organization because that is how they met. It is how they were able to come up with excuses for the online talking at all hours, and false reasons for taking the trips. The excuse was that it was always to promote and run the daily activities of the organization.

A year ago someone else was elected to the top position and a full new administration was appointed.

She and I are still involved with the organization, but only as standard volunteers. He was recently suspended for reasons unknown to me and currently holds no connection.

Things are getting better... slowly.
She has moved from "It is all over!", to "I do not know what I want".
Our conversations are getting longer as well. still relatively short, so I have not been able to dive into the detailed concepts described here on the site, but they do increase a few minutes each time and I have been able to touch on the subjects.

For anyone who might read this, I credit the the idea of exposure as a major and positive first step. It really cracked the egg open and brought some reality to all involved. It is breaking their delusional fantasy, and I have learned more about what lead up to this.

I have a new question...

I found the last exposure target on his side.
I believe it is his father.

It may be relatively common, but have found that I and the OM's spouse have been leaning on each other for some support. (I providing a bit more since I have studied this site and she has not), as well as continuing to update each other of the information we discover.

But within these conversations, she has mentioned that she does not want to tell his parents. That it would be a detriment to her and what she is trying to do (Ie: healing her marriage).

She says she will give him a deadline to tell his friends first and then his parents later.

(I have already told several of his friends and I am guessing he has not revealed this to her)

I have not told her I have discovered his fathers info.

I am stuck between proceeding and risking her cutting contact with me, or wait until her deadline has passed (and still possibly risking her to cease contact).


* I did previously send the news to his sister.

I would expose to his parents and any other contacts asap and then email her and tell her what you have done. Explain that you have done this at the suggestion of Dr Bill Harley in the hopes that his parents would persuade their son to leave your wife alone. LEt her know that Dr Harley strongly suggests that all family members and close friends are exposed so you would urge her to do this too.

You have to do the right thing for your marriage and should not agree to unwise tactics just to placate the other BS. She is making a critical, strategic mistake by not exposing but you shouldn't make the same mistake.

ALSO, you do not want to use her for support, per se. You only want her to use her influence to help bust up the affair. It is easy to develop an unhealthy relationship with the other BS. You don't want to do that.

Has she told her H she knows about the affair? She is making strategic, foolish mistakes by keeping this affair a secret from family and friends.

She did tell him. The same day I told her.
She said she is slowly getting him to face reality. That between his tears he has been opening up a bit about what has been happening.

I also sent her the link to this site and the "Exposure 101" thread. I explained how it has helped to break this open by telling others.

That is when she said she didn't think it was right for her and wanted to give him a deadline.

By what I have said to her , and "if" she did read that thread she would know that I have been already doing it.

What is the deadline for?

PTSD, the other BS does not understand what she is doing. Exposure is "right" for everyone, including her. The fact that she thinks she can talk him into reality indicates she doesn't understand the fog. The most effective thing to wake up a WS is EXPOSURE, and she is not doing that.

But you need to do what is best for your marriage and expose to the OM's parents, family and friends in order to ensure he stays away. Your marriage cannot afford her strategic mistakes.

Her deadline is a few days after easter. She said she didn't want to ruin it for the children.

Do you suggest telling her that his sister (and several friends) already know? I am almost certain he has not told her others aleady know. I am also 100% positive some of the people have already told him they know.

I can explain that it was done during my rounds of exposure that I have already spoken to her about. (which included herself) That it is the sole reason the fantasy has been shattered and agin encourage her to reach the people I was not able to.

What is the deadline FOR? For her exposing to the parents and family?

Are you reading my posts?

I understand now. I had thought you were asking about the time limit.

The only reason I was given for there even being a deadline is that she thought telling others right away would be a detriment rather than a positive.

* As well as the easter/ ruin it for children reason.

* At a different point in the conversation she made this statement... "His mom would kill him if she knew".

So perhaps she is actually trying to protect him.

Did you read my comments about you doing the exposure to his parents, family now?

There is NEVER a perfect time to do exposures. In fact, it is better to do it before a major holiday because family will be together. Of course you can't expose to his kids, but you can contact his parents and SHOULD do that yourself.

Made an edit above.

I will do it today.

Perfect!! And yes, it is hopeful his mother "will kill him!" That is the point. That is what you want. Do you know what to say to her?

Tell her all about the affair and ask her to use her influence to persuade her to leave your wife alone. Be sure and give her all your contact information so she can call with any followup questions.

I only have his fathers FB page. It looks lik his mother is not on FB (although I do have her name).

I believe I will also tell him that his son's sister and wife already know and that his wife has already confronted him. Jumpstart their conversation, without them staring at each other wondering.

Sounds good! Can you call the parents house?

No other informatin beside the FB page. I was planning to send a friend request imidiatly followed by the letter in the chat window.

I would try sending a private message to him telling him about the affair and asking him to call you. He likely won't accept a friend request from a stranger. You can't find his phone #? Did you search for it?

I did try and came up empty.
I was told by the OM's spouse that she was able to see my original message, even before accepting the request.

Gotcha! I didn't realize you could do that. Go ahead and try that and see if it works. You can put your phone # in there and ask him to call you right away. Say something like "your son, Joe Dirtbag, is having an affair with my wife and I really need your help. Can you or your wife call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX."

Update broken into the next few posts, followed by a few new questions.
If anyone might have some advice I would be grateful.


The exposure has done it's job to break this open. Judging by the replies, from both sides of the people I have contacted, or the acceptance... and then subsequent cancellation of "FB friend" requests from the OM's contacts, I know the message has reached everyone... or at least nearly everyone.

I also confronted the OM, through harshly written emails, several times. He sent me no replies, but told my wife about it almost instantly.

* I try not to let it bother me, but of the couple/ few of the OM's friends that have replied to me, their messages were all similar...
They have no influence, can't help, I should not be telling anyone, and it is likely my fault that it has happened.

(In return, our friends have no problem sending her messages)

My wife became upset again when she opened FB for the first time in a month and found 80 messages from people asking if everything was okay.
This was a week ago. She was again upset that people know, only this time the anger lasted simply hours instead of days and the progress resumed, that very day.

Things have been slowly getting better.
Spending some time together nearly every day, eating meals several times as a family, and us talking a bit more about what lead up to the affair, sharing various chores, watching movies... etc.

We are calling, seeing and talking more and more. Even talking about possible futures.
Her invisible wall of physical personal space is also slowly breaking down.

She has also stated she will have no more independent behaviors and has agreed to mutual decision making.

It feels like progress, but I am still unsure.

On one hand, the actions listed above were previously out of the question in her mind.

But... apparently "I will no longer have independent behaviors", and "mutual decision making" does not yet include cutting off contact with the OM.
The replies to that are... "Feelings just don't dissolve instantly"

I have told her I am hurt deeply, physically and emotionally drained, and find it difficult to spend more emotional energy, while knowing she is still in contact with the OM.

She seems more comfortable when she initiates the subject of the affair, but starts to get upset when I initiate the subject or try to expand on something she has said about it.

She says her.. "pain"... lasted years, while mine has only been for a couple months and refuses to remember that I tried many times to find out what was wrong for a long time.

When I state that contact must cease with the OM, and that it involves a "no contact" letter that we write together to accomplish closure, and then ask if she understands, I get in return... "I know where you are coming from".
But, no commitment to actually do it.

(She also refuses to remove a necklace that he bought for her. An "in your face" symbol that she knows hurts those who see it)

I do know the OM closed his personal FB account, and his wife has told me he is seeing a therapist.
That the OM has told his spouse that they will work more at their own recovery.

It has been just under 2 months since I found out, and 1 month since the exposure.

My questions are...

She is the one who dictates what times and for how long we will see each other, gets upset and shuts down quickly when I try talking with her honestly, and as mentioned, currently refuses to end contact with the OM.

It has not happened yet... But, with her apparently putting in effort that was nearly inconceivable a while ago, and at the same time refusing to immediately end contact with the OM, it feels a bit like the very early stages of a "Plan C".


I do believe we will spend time together nearly every day, but she is still living in her mothers home.

Selling our house has been our plan for quite a long time, and she does not want to move back to this home.
But, when I say wherever our home may be does not matter to me, only she does.... she says "then let's get it sold".

It's like a yo-yo emotionally, sometimes even in the same conversation.
I am struggling as to what to do next.


According to the advice, can Plan A continue without an immediate commitment to end contact with the OM ?

(I have read on the site that a BH is recommended to wait 6 months to two years for significant progress)

Has the time since discovery and exposure been too short to expect that to happen so soon?

She has said she wants me to slow down and not talk of the affair as much.

Can plan A continue with periods of not talking of ending contact with the OM, and/ or periods of not talking at all?

(I have read on the site that not making the WW upset is essential, but also that the continued demand to end contact is equally essential)

* Again the OM is half a world away, so it is an online emotional affair at this point.


She has also said a couple times that I am the one causing his and his family embarrassment (not the lying, cheating OM in the first place).

He has also told her and she believes that he has moved out of his home.

I know both of these to be untrue.

I would like to forcefully and bluntly state both of these facts, but is that recommended?


Thanks again to all.

My wife kept a gold chain with a small gold heart from the OM She wore it for a few years before she took it off.

Then after she finally took it off it would reappear every about every three years over twenty five years. Until the last time it appeared. I finally taped it to a rock drove with wife to the ocean and threw it in.

Your wife is hoping he will divorce his wife for her. That is the plan here and why she is dragging this out. I would tell your wife the truth and have the OM's wife call her and bring her up to speed.

You should be telling the OM's wife everything you know about this. Did you contact the OM's parents?

I think that you have to tread more carefully than some BHs in Plan A because you wife is not living with you. She left you nearly a year ago, and has made no commitment to returning to the marriage. Therefore, when you tell her that contact with OM is terribly upsetting to you, and so on, this does not have the same moral force as if she were living with you and making the pretence of continuing in the marriage.

What you can do, if exposure is complete and there is no more to do on that front, is invite your wife out on dates several times a week. You need to court her back to the marriage the way you courted her into marriage in the first place - and that was not by inviting her round to your house and focusing on domestic issues.

I don't know why you don't take her at her word and sell the house. Moving after an affair has taken place has a very cathartic effect on recovery, even when the affair took place across continents and not in the house, as in your case.

Do not make unilateral decision about selling, however. You should never much such decisions in marriage, and should always use The Policy of Joint Agreement. To do this, you would first get her agreement to the principle of selling the house, making it clear that you see the new home as a home for both of you, and that you value her input at every stage.

You would then agree on how much to spend sprucing up the house for sale, and you would look at new homes together. Even if she said she could not move in with you yet, because she has not made up her mind to return to you, if you could get the agreement in principle that if she returns, you will live in a new home together, you could use finding that new home as a way to woo your wife back. You'd be spending time on undivided attention when you look at new homes together, and depositing love bank units when you show her how much you want her to be happy with the eventual choice.

She doesn't want to go back to you where you are (though I understand that the home is not the issue - OM is the issue), and you could help drive forward a change and reconciliation if you focused on a new future for you both.

I do think you would benefit enormously from personal advice from Dr Harley. Your case is somewhat non-standard, with OM living on a different continent (and still the affair does not end), and your wife having moved out, and moved on, before you discovered the existence of the affair.

You will get free advice from Dr Harley if you write to him care of the radio show. You can appear as a guest on the show, or you can simply have your email addressed without appearing.

I haven't read through everything you wrote on your exposure, and I wrote my post in the expectation that you had done everything possible on this front.

You need to follow MelodyLane's advice to the letter. Proper exposure is the single most important step you can take to bring about the end of this affair. If you can get your wife to realise that this man will never be there for her - by making her confront him and ask why he is still living with his wife - and if you can get his parents to show him how shocked they are that he would break up another person's marriage, you could bring this to a close very quickly.

How thorough has your exposure been?

The exposure was all on FB and consisted of..

OM's wife -
(which I am still in contact with)

OM's Father -
Initial exposure and included in a recent follow up to say his son is still in contact with her.
(He did not contact me back but did remove my friend request)

OM's Sister -
(whom oddly enough has kept me as a FB friend even after the second follow up message)

OM Friends -
7 of them, and in turn they spread it to at least three more.
This includes 3 of his local closest friends, and 3 whom have provided him working opportunities.
(The same 3 they lied about providing the trips)

* Only a few of them have replied to me, but all have shown indication that they have seen them. Mainly by first accepting, and then reversing the friend requests.


On my and wife's side, many, many people know.
Including both of our families and many friends.

The OM's wife is very reluctant to email or call my wife.
She did send her one message, but has since told me it has not been marked as read.

The OM's wife is a mixed benefit.
She does share information, but is reluctant to perform exposure
(even though she knows I have already contacted several of his friends)
She also seems to often tell her husband when we have communicated... which he in turn tells my wife and it comes back to me in the form of her being upset.

Wy wife is "convinced" that the OM is the one telling the truth and that his wife is lying about their own recovery.

She denies that he still lives at home, that he still sleeps with his wife, that he is not seeing a therapist, that there is still hope he will leave his wife and children, abandon his life and relocate half way around the world.

It's almost like talking to a crazy person.

"My wife is "convinced" that the OM is the one telling the truth and that his wife is lying about their own recovery."

I should mention that her belief bounces back and forth between being convinced that he is the one telling the truth to stating that perhaps he is a liar.

Quick question...

I have found out there are others whom have sent her support messages from whom I did not think or consider exposing to.

They have done so because word spread that "something is wrong" but do not know what it is.

Although it has been a month since the initial exposure, do I contact these individuals and fill them in as I did with the others?

Or, is that considered a "trickle exposure" and as a result cause the WW to become again upset at her BH?

How do you know that they only know "something is wrong", but do not know what it is?

How do you know they are sending support messages?

What do these messages say?

She finally checked her FB, about a month after the exposure and found "80 messages" (her words) regarding all of this.

I said, I am certain all of the messages are positive, what did they say?

Answer... "They all say they heard something is wrong, and want to know if they can help"

Again those are her words, so it could be that they do know and only phrased it in that manner.

I did see two emails from people specifically stating they do not know what it is, but heard something is wrong.

Update today:

The OM's wife sent my wife a lengthy letter explaining that he has been lying to her just as much as to everyone else. That he still sleeps in the bed, has not moved out, is seeing a therapist, had been stealing his family's mortgage money to pay for their trips...etc

She drove home the fact that they have been living in a fantasy and real life is different than the vacations and online messages they have created around themselves.
That he will not be moving away or leaving his children.


My wife copied the letter, sent it back to him, and included this at the top...


<< I....I don't know what to say or believe.
It's probably in everyone's best interest if I send your things either back to you or to your sister or parents in Canada.


If it was all lies and fantasy..thank you for an experience I will always remember. >>


This all happened in the last 2 hours and my wife does not know I have seen all of this.

what is my next step?
Do I see or talk to her today?
Do I let her think for a while?


This seems big, and I would like to take full advantage of it.


Edit:
I am almost certain that he will try to sweet talk his way out of it. Saying it is actually his wife who is lying.
I feel I need to do something before that happens, and she possibly falls for it again.


* I'm pretty sure I should also send her reply to the OM's wife.

A short while ago she called me.

We joked for a while about a few other subjects, then she paused for a moment and said... "You don't have to worry anymore. I will not be seeing or talking to him again".

But, that was followed calmly by... "I don't want to be with anyone, you or him"

I then stopped by her work, she took a break and said the same thing. I told her again she is the love of my life. Offered to take her out after work (which she said... "No, but thank you")

Before returning to work, she said we would talk later.

I know that inside she must be a emotional and I am not sure what to think.

That is where is stands as of this moment.

Why doesn't OMW simply send your wife a picture of her husband in her bed, asleep? Of her husband at breakfast in his jammies?

She does not seem to be very forceful in telling your wife to get her tail out of her marriage. She seems to be pleading with your wife to leave him alone. Why is she putting up with her husband telling your wife that he does not live there? Why doesn't she demand that her husband sends your wife an NC letter, if he wants to stay in his home?

I can't understand why she's being so gentle about this.

On your part, you could hire a PI online to watch their house for a day or two, and prove to your wife that he is living there. We've had people do this from another continent before.

There is so much more you could do.

I wrote you a long post about selling your house. You didn't respond to it.

The house is definitely going up for sale.
It has been the plan before I even discovered what was happening.

* and we are both in agreement on that point.

I agree that the OM's spouse is being too gentle.
I have encouraged her several times to be more forceful and in fact to go off on my wife in a phone call. She chose instead to write a letter through email.

It does however seem to have had an effect, considering what my wife wrote back to him and then told me that she will no longer be speaking to him.

My immediate dilemma is what to do if we do not end up talking later today/ tomorrow.

Do I hold and hope she does call at some point?
Or, try to initiate another conversation?

My heart tells me to try and talk to her... constantly.
My head says that might not be such a good idea.

(When I get stuck like this I often send her a text message saying how much I love her)

Also, do I send the note in which she sent the OM, to the OM's wife?

If the other BS uses my wife's exact words to her husband, it will likely come back to me and my WW will know I still have access.

Still unsure if there is anything I can/ must do before he possibly tries to again convince her that his wife is the one not telling the truth.

* I will suggest to the other BS to take/send the photo in bed.
I'm guessing I would have to first explain the effect her letter had.

I explained the letter to the OM's spouse... but she already knew.

The OM's spouse has told me he is seeing the no contact as very much permanent.

Apparently there were additional messages, not through email, that more forcefully described no contact as permanent.

she said he was angry and has told her that my wife is deleting him as a contact and would not be speaking to him again, followed by... 'Well, you and he have won."


My wife told me again today that she knows he had been lying to her all along.


The scary part now is that within the last 24 hours she has started saying she does not want anyone. That although she knows he was lying the whole time that he made her "feel" loved.

I told her lies are not love.

She said it was how she felt .. and that I "just don't get it".

The last thing said between us today was my saying ... "I have learned and understand. That she will be a princess forever. Never to feel lonely or not loved. Reaffirmed every second."


My feeling now is that I once agin hold, let her think and recover for a while... and hope she calls in the next couple/ few days.

The other thing that I recommended, to which you did not respond, was to write to Dr Harley at the radio show.

MB is an action-based programme, and the forum advice focuses on actions you can take. Posters don't tend to get a good response to long, blog-like, reflective posts that do not focus on the specific steps we recommend you to take.

You need to know from Dr Harley whether there is anything more you can do in Plan A, with a wife who moved out nearly a year ago.

When I write, do I include a link to this thread?
Start from the begining?
Just hit main points?

There's no fixed way to do it. Surely you can write an email laying out the problem?

Do you listen to the radio show on a regular basis? Have you downloaded the free app?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Letter sent and addressed on today's show.

I've only just noticed this post. I can't listen to the radio right now. What did Dr Harley say?

They actually spent a good portion of the show on it.

Basic advice given was:

Stick to Plan A.
Do not have deep or philosophical discussions.
Try to keep all talk fun.
Ask for dates and/or fun activities at least every other day.
Treat her like a Queen.
Make deposits when possible.
Likely to see some light through the tunnel in about 3 months.


It's going to be tough as we do talk a little every day, more text than phone or in person, (she gets much less upset texting than during a phone call), but when I tell her how special she is, or exactly how I will meet this need or that, the next statement from her simply relates to whatever the previous topic was.

So, "treating her like a Queen" is a rough path.

She will talk to me about any other subject, but asking to do fun things results in "no" answers and "stop it".

I have a feeling that asking every other day might be a bit too much.

Both have now deactivated their FB pages. The OM two weeks ago, and her just yesterday.

Not sure what to make of that.
I know she told him "I will never regret our time together"... but the closing of the pages seems to indicate guilt or embarrassment.


* She tried to say it was because I was sharing "crap" on her page (photos of her, I and our children with praises along side them), but one can simply hide stuff on their timeline, no need to shut down the whole page.

Here is the radio clip of your email.
Radio Clip of PTSD's e-mail

Thank you for the link. I have saved it.


It has been 6 weeks since exposure and it had the effect it was intended to. By all evidence the affair has ended. (although one can not be 100% sure)

I do know some charity acquaintances (members of the current administration) have been sending my WW support messages, not really knowing what has happened, but asking if there is anything they can do.

Would it be a benefit to tell them myself, or does this prove to be detrimental, after this amount of time?

She has calmed from the exposure, and I think by doing more it will prove to cause another round of extreme anger.

My wife is becoming more friendly, but after I respected her wishes and slowed down, the communication is slowing drastically.

I keep up with a couple flattering messages each day and ask how she is, but texts are now only getting a couple words to nothing in reply, and phone calls/ visits have dropped to nearly nothing.

I am feeling that the more I hold off, the more I am quietly loosing her.

Thank you as always.


Edit:
I have discovered, just now, that at least some of these people sending her support letters do in fact know, to some extent, what has happened and whom the OM is. Apparently word of the exposure letters has found its way through the grapevine, to both friends and those who want to humiliate her. One of the people sending my wife a support letter is a member of the current charity administration (the person in charge of discipline/ conflict resolution) and is asking me if what they heard is true. I am at a loss as to if it would be a benefit to confirm to this person what has happened.

The remaining members of the current charity staff are already hostile toward my WW and there is a good chance that if they get word the situation has been directly confirmed, it would result in public humiliation for her.

I thought the advice in previous posts was to expose at the charity, especially since your wife and the OM were using the charity to meet up in other cities.

Resign from the charity and find a different one, local that doesn't involve overnight travel. There are plenty of good causes out there.

Correction: her AFFAIR will cause public humiliation, not exposing it.

I fully understand that, but what I do not need or want is another round of anger toward me, 6 weeks after the initial exposure, and setting any progress made back to zero.

These are people who will not support me or talk to her about it. It will spread word of the affair wider, but they will only use it in an effort to hurt her (and in turn she will blame me) or cause trouble for both of us.

* I have already resigned from the charity.

Only good can come from this exposure.

This charity has a cancer. The OM and WW must be removed forever from it. I am sure that the charity moneys have been misspent on this affair.

The person contacting you needs your help for her to be able to clean house at the charity.

Also your WW can no longer be involved there for so many reasons but the most important one is that she used the charity as a cover for her affair and used the charity to cover her over night trips with the OM.

That is done.

Provided some detail on how the organization was used to carry on an affair and how everyone within it were openly lied to.

I explained the situation and that it is essential contact with the OM must be permanent. Steps are being taken to prevent the OM from returning, after his suspension for a non-related reason, (which ends next February) and my wife has little interest in returning.

I have refrained from doing so as much as I would like, but do very desperately want to tell her every day how much she is loved and that whatever faults (which I am still basically unaware of) she had with me are gone.
That I have the tools and we can rebuild a great marriage and partnership.

But the times that I do approach the subject, she actually gets turned off by this... "I'm not going through this with you now".

"The damage is done. Do the townspeople care if the dam is fixed, after the town is flooded?"

Ignoring the obvious and talking about other subjects gains some results (ie: longer phone calls by a few minutes) but she no longer initiates the communication, has stopped the occasional visits to home, and we now only text/ talk about an hour and a half, spread throughout the week.

Not through my lack of trying, but through a lack of response.
She reads the messages, but only occasionally gives a few words to something I have written, or answer the phone only after repeted tries.

I know it has only been 10 weeks since discovery and 6 since exposure, (although we have been separated... with very little explanation... for 11 months) but I feel very little progress is being made and the effort I put in is not being returned in an amount I can hold onto.

As advised through the radio program, I do regularly suggest non-romantic, fun things to do.
Those were previously met with solid "No" answers, but now the response is "I don't know" or "I don't think that would be a good idea".
Softer words, but I can't really consider it progress.

She also tries to continually pick apart sentences and find a fault or reason to get angry.
I then have to gently explain that the reason to get angry in which she is searching for, does not exist.

I have been nothing but calm, gentle, soft spoken and flattering, since the very day after discovery.

Based on current investment versus return, at least at this very moment in time, I see a projection of perpetual separation without divorce.
Wherein I continue to attempt deposits and am met with aggressive responses, small talk of non related subjects, or simply being ignored.

Things were looking better, but are slipping further backward, since she broke contact with the OM.

While I am in a sustained state of sadness, weeping, internal anger, and depression (all the while maintaining Plan A),
she seems to be unfazed and non-responsive.


My question is...

Based on such a scenario,

Do I keep up with initiating phone contact in an effort to provide deposits?
Do I continue with the flattering and/ conversational texts, knowing they are read but will likely not be replied to?

Do I go silent, not knowing how long it might be before she begins to open up... if ever.


Thank you again.

* It is helpful but very strange to seek advice on communicating with a women I have known completely and been married to for a quarter of a century.

** Mothers day is in a few days and our first anniversary apart is in two weeks.

In the last couple days there has been a bit of change in her current personality.
She returns my wishes to have a great day, and hopes to have a good night.

I have most recently stated that I thank God every day for blessing me with her and that I hope she will open her heart to all I have been saying.

Her response to this is... She has been listening to all I have been saying, and knows I am struggling to accept what she has been saying (that she will not be coming back). That "...It is simply too late for us", followed with a well wished goodnight and to get some rest.

I then explained that if she gives us some time together, I will prove every day that I know what it takes to make her happy.
But that it must start with time for attention.

Followed by each other saying "Good night".


I am still unsure of how to continue, with the same questions as just above...

-Do I keep up with initiating phone contact in an effort to provide deposits?
-Do I continue with the flattering and/ conversational texts, knowing they are read but will often likely not be replied to?
-Keep up with explaining I know what it takes and have forever been changed?

-Do I go silent, not knowing how long it might be before she opens up, or is the one to initiate communication... if ever?


As always, thank you.

* 10 weeks since discovery, 6 since exposure, 2 since breaking contact with OM.

If you are in Plan A then you keep up with Plan A.

Have you written Dr. Harley again? Are you taking ADs?

I have written again and am awaiting a reply.

Although it is tough to build deposits through infrequent phone calls and text messages, I am still keeping with Plan A.

(If I had her back home, I know how to build deposits in great numbers)

No, no AD's yet.
(although I know she has researched one for herself)
I've just felt that if I do start taking them, I am losing and forced into something I never thought or envisioned I would ever need. And, forced upon me by something not of my own doing.

It is definitely a roller coaster.
Just when I thought it might not be working, I decided to visit old friends and party for a weekend.
This caused me to loosen up with the messaging and talk about fun times in the past, and I did not hide my effort to tell her I love her.

She actually replied and put some effort in to carry on a conversation.

I have started texting song lyrics to a song she knows reminds me of her, and with each reply, I type in the next verse.

Today I called, we talked for a 1/2 hour and I said I miss her and need to see her.

"I'll will come today" ... was the reply.

It won't be alone time as the children will be here, but I guess I will see what happens.

What Plan A plans do have for when you see her?

I strongly recommend you contact your doctor for some ADs. Dr. Harley recommends them during this trying time.

In regard to plans concerning activities, I am constantly suggesting fun things to do.

Walking, nature walking, reading novels out loud (she loves reading) , a classic cinema theater nearby, pub visits, looking into a new outdoor hobbies, ice cream parlor, out for coffee...

If those get a "no" answer, I have suggestions for staying inside... a line of films to watch, or perhaps her television shows... even just talking about anything.

If plans about pampering: I tell her I love her every day, how beautiful she is, how I am blessed, how she has blessed us with our children, talk about her day, her work frustrations, her favorite books (and how far along I am reading her absolute favorite), her doctor visits... etc.


* Yesterday didn't go so well. What I thought would be hours turned to only minutes before she became upset and left.
She came back 40 mins later, for an unrelated reason, and agreed to try again tomorrow morning.

This is all foreign to me so I would like to ask if this is typical behavior.

( I believe I have heard similar circumstances on the radio program )

She is in a state of wanting to find any excuse to get angry, lash out, yell, blame, accuse, threaten, claim I am not trying to work with her.
(I do nothing to spur these on)

* This happens between occasional half efforts on her part to put in effort.

Bits of sentences cause it, spoken words cause it, non-spoken words cause it, friendly talking causes it, calmness causes it, being nice causes it, flattery causes it.
Even her own wrongdoings are somehow my fault.

I have, every time, refused to engage in an argument and simply continue to remain soft spoken, letting her know I never want to see her upset, that I have been proving I will not show anger, disrespect or make demands. The more she gets angry, the more calm I become... even continuing with flattery and compliments.

Not sure what to think or make of it.

I guess I'll keep this thread to generalizations, as I build a longer range scope of things.

Things are so way up and way down, continually.

Today, (relatively speaking) was a full 180 from what is described just above.

She asked... not demanded, this afternoon, if it was alright to bring the children to her mothers tonight.
I agreed as long as she brought them to school tomorrow on time.
(she has had a habit of letting them skip or bring them in late, when spending the night with her)

She said she promises to and "crosses her heart".

She participated in the POJA and actually initiated it in regard to days of the week for her to spend time with them and also agreed those days of the week would be optional... not guaranteed.
She declined lunch out, but suggested ordering dinner.


Result:

An hour and a half of time together here at home watching television (the usual routine has been to wait in the car, for the kids to come out to her)
Dinner (pizza).
No anger.
Accepted compliments.
Accepted touching and small hugs.
OM's necklace was gone (probably for the first time since it was given to her).
"will think about" going out over the weekend.


* It was nice, and the longest time given for deposits in quite a while, but I'm still keeping to reality.

These things might have been accepted only because I agreed to let her keep the children overnight. (although I have accepted before and did not have such results)

An hour and a half is short compared to the very real possibility she could have spent several more hours if wanting to do so.

"Will think about" going out, likely means no.

Did not want to hug when leaving.

Tomorrow is another day.

And... already way back down the tube, just for asking if she would like to stop for morning coffee as she was only a block away, dropping the kids off at school after they spent the night with her.

A whole day of how terrible I am with anger and false accusations towards me.
(All the while with my only being supportive, positive, and incorporating the idea of using many of the lessons taught here, into my conversation)

She also already broke the joint agreement about the days the children will visit her. Today was not one of those days, but has them hanging out at her work for 5 hours, until she takes them back to her mothers again.

She did so while I was not home and not able to negotiate.

While the affair was happening she had little time for any of us, but now that it has ended she simply makes demands and takes them when she pleases. Any "resistance" from me (IE: trying to incorporate the POJA) causes further accusations of "My trying to keep her from her children as punishment"

In addition, my children are now repeating the same type of nonsense things she has been telling me and are also mad at me for non-existent reasons, including the same types of twisted facts and lapses in memories, as well as hanging up on me.

I told my wife... "It is fine that they spend another night at your mothers, although I would have liked you to stick with what we had agreed upon together. But, it is fine."

That (for various important reasons), "The children need to be brought to my mothers early in the day, so that I may talk with them and find out what is wrong". That "I love all of you with every ounce of my being, but I am not to blame for this".
"I support, help and guide my children, but that I will not be told what to do by them. That you need to support this and not keep attacking me".

That... "I am not afraid to say that all can be healed quickly and lovingly by the return of the love of my life, the mother of my children and the return of a true partnership of parents together".

She refused on all counts, including where and when to drop them off.

I never was granted an honest or real explanation of what the troubles were to begin with, never got an apology for crushing me. Never a sign of remorse and only a miniscule effort on behalf of my WW to heal things.

It is 11 weeks since discovery. Just under 8 since exposure, and just under 3 since she broke contact with OM (with no way to verify if it has resumed in any way).

MB is a wonderful program, developed and supported by caring people.
I will always be grateful for the policies I have learned here.

But the fact is I have worked hard to discover and heal whatever she was "sad" about. Double hard when my wife moved to her mom's just under a year ago. Triple hard, when I discovered the 3 year affair.

I am positive this program works if there is a some sort of even small amounts of continued effort on the part of the WS. I just seem to get more abused and given bits of false hope, the more kind, gentle and flattering I am, and the more I understandingly try to convey the policies taught here.

I am feeling what I did accomplish is to set the other BS on the road to recovery, while he lied to and screwed with my wife's head to such an extent that ours might be impossible.

I am 45, she is 42 and we have been together for just under 25 years, over half our lives.

I will not give up and will always be ready for Plan A when the opportunity arises. But it is likely time to stop initiating the contact for a while, and wait to see if any effort is put forth.
I am tempted to and a few "words of truth", but I am too mentally exhausted to go through that and it is not in my nature to do so.

Our first anniversary apart is in 6 days, and I will give her the presents I have for her.

* Roses, an autographed book from her favorite author, and a silver necklace designed to hold your wedding band.

After that... likely comes the unknown.

Have you verified that she hasn't had any contact with OM?

The only verification I can get is by directly asking her... in which the answer is "no".
(of course how does one tell if she is lying?)

Checking her primary email... which there are no emails to or from.
(But she has a Skype account and an ICQ account which I can not access)

Asking the OM's wife... which the answer is "I believe not".
(They are actually on the road to recovery, but he still has all his electronics locked away from his wife)

* My gut tells me she has not spoken to him. I have hinted at details in which the OM's wife has told me and my wife does not show indication of what I am talking about.

She also removed the necklace he bought her.

So then how is your Plan A going?

The hour and a half I described 5 posts up, post number #2881520, is the most positive result so far.

The next day it was right back to insulting and hurting me, claiming she is never coming back and to give her space.

If I am to keep attempting plan A it will be by my initiating each contact.
I am pretty sure if I were to stop phoning and texting, I would not hear from her for an indefinite amount of time.

My follow up letter made the radio program again, and the suggestion was to keep up being the best husband possible, and if there is no change in attitude in three months, to then perhaps be concerned.

But, she is not yet showing an indication of being open to all I have been saying. My fear is that based on the amount of progress so far, if there is a change in three months, it will be small and I will have again put forth everything I have.

When was it read on the show?

I believe it was on the 12th.

I found it here (5/10) :

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm?recno=506&sublink=507

* I did listen to it more than once but I am not subscribed so I cant re-listen.

If you get the app for your phone, you should be able to access the archives. My iphone app has a archive where you can listen to past broadcasts.

I have tried, but once I search for past broadcasts and log in, I get a blank screen.

I am wondering if I should suggest the radio app to her, or would that be a bad idea?

I've thought about explaining there are great ideas to be heard and are in line with all I have been saying. But, I have a feeling once the discussion turns to affairs, or even exposure, it will backfire.

You get all of the archives for free? LMG?

PTSD, it is totally worth $50 to pay for the archives. Then you can listen by topic which will help you so much. You can download certain ones to focus on. Access for a year is about the cost of a dinner out.

I will very much look into doing that.

The show is great, but the difference I am finding is that it seems to primarily focus on non-separated couples.
Those that have longer and greater opportunities to make deposits.

As or right now mine focuses on texting and short phone calls.
Words rather than the opportunity for actions.

What I am struggling with now is that when I talk about rebuilding and my absolute desire to fulfill all of her needs, and ask her where she feels I have failed in the past, she becomes angry.

"It's too late". "You should know, without me having to tell you". "you are too old to learn change". "I am not giving you the chance".

I then keep, very gently and calmly, explaining my position that change can happen, that we can make each other happy, and that I ask these things because I want to learn and re-learn from and about her.

If she ends the call, the next conversation I initiate is about a non-related subject. Usually asking her if she would like to spend small amounts of time chatting or simple, non-deep activities (like reading, walking, lunch)

I also often tell her she is loved and treasured by me.
(although I am not sure how much is too much)

I can get a bit more time by talking about other topics she is interested in, but not much more.

Another situation I am having is that when she does become upset, she tosses out words such as lawyer... courts... divorce. But does not take any steps to move in that direction.

In addition, all of our family members phones are on a family plan under her name, and when upset threatens to remove mine and tells me to find another... but never actually does that either.

I have read in another thread that in their situation one spouse became upset at expressions of affection, but it was due to the deposits actually working and her unsure of what to do.

I am not sure if that is what is happening or if it is real.
I would think that if she really does want to divorce, take my phone or find a lawyer, some action would have been taken in that direction.

My next questions (in two posts)
I am no longer sure what to do... not day by day, but hour by hour.

Today was nothing but silence.

Yesterday I had explained that I am not trying to push for anything super serious right now. That I know she is not ready for that.

Last night I got her to chat a little about her favorite books, and her most favorite, in which I am reading.
Then in the middle of the conversation the messages just stopped.

Throughout the night and through today I tried several times to get her talking again and the texts just piled up without reply.

(Last night were about just wanting to chat for a while.
This morning was about a dream I had of her. That I love and miss her. About it being a nice day. In the afternoon it was that I would be off work early and would like to know if she would like to go for a walk or read together).

Tried several times to phone throughout the day and although I know she is near the phone there is no answer.

I don't know what to do next, if there is anything I can do.

It seems the more I try the opportunities are growing smaller and the resistance higher. Opposite of the intention.

Our first anniversary apart is in 2 days.
Is there an opinion here on giving her the gifts I found?

- An autographed copy of a book by her favorite author/ series.
- A silver necklace designed to hold her wedding bands (intended to replace the one she removed from the OM)
* I traded the idea of roses for something more permanent.
She loves statues, so I found a nice one with a couple that very much looks like us.
- And of course a very nice anniversary card (in which I plan to write my feelings for her, what the gifts represent, and my vision of our future looking forward to the next quarter century as I did the last).

I am wondering if I should mention these gifts now, in an effort to get a response, or surprise her with a visit to her mothers in 2 days.

Should I not give them at all as it might look like pushing?

( I am a bit afraid she will say she does not want me to give them to her, before even knowing what they are)

And my biggest fear... Plan B.
Something I would rather not do.

It seems Plan B is intended to be implemented as a means to end a still continuing affair.
I am almost certain this one ended just over three weeks ago with a final contact letter.

The OM already deleted his FB page, and his spouse has told me he deleted ICQ chat from his phone (but possibly not from his laptop).
That he has shown her his Skype chat and the last message was a missed call from my wife, also 3 just over weeks ago.

* A call she referenced in her letter as to not hearing back from him.
He has told his wife he was disappointed that his last attempt to contact my WW also did not get a response, and that "his wife and I have won".

* As mentioned, my wife also removed the necklace he bought her.

My question about a possible plan B, while having confidence the affair has ended, is how would I implement it if needed?

Do I tailor the expressions of hurt not to an ongoing affair but to the pain she is currently causing.

Is it possible to implement a Plan B, unannounced?
If she were to call about getting the children or some other reason, I simply say I am busy and to call this other person if you need to talk.

I no longer need an opinion on the anniversary gifts. She came to pick up the children again (against my thoughtfully expressed wishes) and I explained what each represented and gave them to her two days early.

She at first said she did not want them. I explained their individual meanings and she did accept them, between bitter comments.

I said I love her several times (which resulted in a tight lipped scowl each time)

I figure I have nothing to loose. They could very well be the last anniversary presents I give, and the last poetic written message in a card, and I made them mean something special.

I again talked about working together to rebuild and asked if we could chat later and also perhaps schedule some time together to walk or possibly something else.

I got the usual "Maybe. I don't know" answer.

The day after the anniversary, 3 days from now, after I wish her a wonderful anniversary and work a little more an her accepting some time together, I will have to decide on continuing with Plan A, contemplate a Plan B... or just go silent and wait.

I did notice, including the events described above that within the last 24 hours she has become more belligerent. The OM's spouse has said within that same 24 hours he has become sad.

She feels it is for other reasons, but it seems like a close coincidence.

If there is suspicion of contact (without proof) is there anything suggested that I can do, within my situation?

Questions I still have:


Post #2881381

Based on the 100's of storied expressed on these forums, am I to expect such disrespectful and abusive behavior toward me for no reason? Outright name calling, swearing... ect?

Just for being caring, gentle, explaining change can happen, and expressing love?


Post #2881680

What am I to do about her now wanting, and succeeding, to take the children any time she pleases, for nights and days at a time, when she had little time for them while the affair was ongoing?
And, while they have been living here at home for the entire past year?
Do I start making a stand in regard to the children, knowing it will result in abuse sand steps backward?

*Even calmly trying to work on a mutual decision in this regard results in abuse and hang ups on calls.



Post #2882017

How do I tailor a possible Plan B for my separated situation, and her quite likely no longer in contact with the OM?



Post #2881915


Should suggest the radio app to her, or would that be a bad idea?




post #2882023

Do I stay with plan Plan A?
Tailor a Plan B... start an unannounced Plan B (ie: I tell her, each time, in an informal way that she will have to call someone else to contact me)

or just go silent and wait?


post #2882026

If there is increased belief that contact between the two WS's
has happened, is there much I can do?



* Should I start to explain that have a new life for the both of us, I am moving forward, and would like her there with ,me, (basically.. I'm going ahead with or without you)Or, do I continue asking for small amounts of time, every day?

You are getting very discouraged because you are putting in lots of effort with seemingly no results. You can't educate her as if you know that there is a magic marriage pill that she doesn't know about. That would feel condescending. You can express a willingness to make changes from your side to create a life where you both can be happy. You should show her that you will listen to each and every concern she has. You should go about improving your skill in anything she needed from you over the years, but you lacked. Resolve any complaints she had about you, especially the things she felt you ignored. Do it on your own without making it a topic of conversation. Show her that those changes are permanent habits.

If you are doing all of that, then that's all you can do. It's up to her to give it a chance. You don't need to go overboard showering your wife with gifts and expressions of love. I would not bombard her constantly like a stalker, in a way that feels demanding. It should feel caring, light and supportive. Think about her day and what you could do to help her day be easier. Consistently behave as you did when you dated her. What did she like about you? Have you tried solving her problems? Domestic support? Family activities like bike rides, picnics or game nights? Have you improved your ability to provide financial security?

If she gets rude, try to remember that it comes from a surge in emotions. Tell her that you are sorry that you upset her and is there any way that you can help her feel better? Then if it continues, tell her that you've gotta go, but that you can talk later when things have calmed down. You can remove yourself when you are getting hurt.

Are you reading other threads? Because you can learn what to do by paying attention to the advice others receive. Focus on educating yourself right now so that you understand the basic concepts and applications inside out.

Plan B....the point is not to kill the affair. It could even make the affair stronger for a time. The point is that it protects you emotionally and preserves any love you have left for your wife. It leaves your wife with a message of care, positivity, and willingness to make her the most important person in your life.

If you get the radio show archive access, I would suggest searching for segments about affairs, and listen to every single one where the caller is male. Listening to MBR was a beneficial distraction for me during frustrating times.

This is a long post...the intent is to support you since I can see your discouragement. You may already be doing what I have suggested, and my intent is not to pressure you.

Others will come along who can better advise about the kid situation and if it's Plan B time. Hang in there PTSD.

Thanks DQ,

I have been pushing I guess. Unintentionally.
It's tough not to express constantly, when you actually do love someone that much, and the reason she has given is that she didn't feel loved, without me yet fully understanding how that had happened.

I felt that expressing often that she is in fact loved dearly, would be beneficial, but the reactions tell me differently.

I have also been trying to break a wall, as to just get my foot in. What in fact frustrates me is that we are not living together, and the realization that IF it is going to work out, it is going to be a very long time process.

Trying to get a large amount of information/ deposits in, by piece mail and written words, without the physical closeness to show it by continued action, and face to face discussion, is very difficult.

I have been trying to overthink it and have been coming from a place of us being together and her being my wife for over 23 years.
I suppose I will shift to a slower gear, hang in there, and do what I can to treat her as I did when she was my GF.
( Yet now a reluctant GF )

Opportunities for deposits are going to be few and far between, but I guess that is all I can do. I only hope they build over time and are not forgotten while in between.

It's a bit scary because the doctor predicted, during my last email, that a drop in my love could happen any day... and within the last few days I can almost pinpoint when that small drop happened.

It is double edged, because although it has helped the depression somewhat, and has now caused me to calm down some and think a bit clearer in terms of our current status, it is still very deep and I do not want it to drop any further.

The drop has caused me to also resume activities outside of the house and once again connect with a few friends. I am going to start interspersing inviting her to already planned activities and less of solely trying to suggest things that could be.

She has no independent friends, so perhaps by seeing my return to those we are friends with will help her realize she has isolated herself and possibly want to join in.

* Sorry for the blog-ish post, I am still open to advice on my above questions.

Yes! Because that's why she agreed to marry you in the first place.


Good brainstorming.

I have a neighbor whose ex husband sleeps over quite often lately. When she first moved in he didn't. But then I noticed him helping to landscape the yard, work on house repairs etc. Just a thought...

Maybe someone can give me a suggestion on a couple issues?

I have resolved to keep my efforts to the frame of mind of treating her as a GF.
* This is going to take some creativity, as we all know while dating/ courting a GF, it is based on learning about them, finding their likes/ dislikes, discovering common interests.

I already know all of these things, so a courtship ritual will need to be something out of the ordinary.

Any suggestions?


My primary question is this...
As I mentioned above, today is our 21st wedding Anniversary and the first one separated.

I asked yesterday, in person, if she would like to go on a date today... the answer was no.

Should I today acknowledge this day to her in any special way?
All I have done so far is send a text saying "Good Morning", followed by "Happy Anniversary".

My instinct is to add a simple compliment or expression of what these decades have meant to me. And perhaps ask again if she would like to do something today. (keeping it light and simple such as lunch or a walk in the park)


Good idea?... Bad idea?... Couldn't hurt?

Thanks.



Today is also going to be rough, because I have decided that I am going to contact an attorney for a consultation on my situation with the kids.

I did express yesterday... very nicely (within the same time period of asking for a date) that I felt the fact that she was now claiming so many days as "her days" with the kids, was unfair and a mutual situation had to be agreed upon. She said she was open to doing that... but as I have no idea what is in her mind, day to day... the selfishness could return at any time.

First anniversary separated, first contact of a lawyer by either of us, and on the same day.

I would focus some time on family outings and family activities. (I already mentioned this...did it get through?)

I would start planning family activities on days the kids are with you, when you already know that she is free. Let her know that you and the kids are going to the movies and you would really love it if she would come with you. If not, go anyway with the kids. Plan things that the kids will want to do, where she would feel left out if she doesn't show up.

Can you do this?

So you knew that something was wrong for a long time. Did you ever figure out what was wrong?

This question frustrates me a bit.

Dr. Harley answered this type of question for a male caller the other day on MB radio and it seems to me that if you were listening, you would've known the answer.

Can you see where I am coming from?

<< So you knew that something was wrong for a long time. Did you ever figure out what was wrong? >>

The "pain" comment she gave me came months after discovery.
Before discovery... The only indication that something was wrong was a "I am not happy" comment, and at another time, the "I love you but am not in love with you" statement.

I tried... hard, for quite a while, to find out what it was.
I'd ask her every day to come talk and we would figure out what it was.
But, she shut down and did not want to talk about anything.
Both of those comments were well after the affair had already started.

I did not know at the time that these statements meant that an affair has already begun. I didn't even comprehend such a thing was possible.
If I had known, it never would have reached this point.



<< I would start planning family activities on days the kids are with you, when you already know that she is free. Let her know that you and the kids are going to the movies and you would really love it if she would come with you. If not, go anyway with the kids. Plan things that the kids will want to do, where she would feel left out if she doesn't show up.
>>

Absolutely can... when given the opportunity.
I have done some, but I am going to try and ramp it up.
The trouble is she has several days off per week and takes them on each day off.
but i will try even harder. They deserve it too.


<< This question frustrates me a bit. >>

I try to listen to the radio program every day.
I missed one or two recently.

Considering the circumstances I believe I handled today pretty well. Set my mind to deal with her as a woman I did not know very well and was courting. Resulting in her chatting about interests for a while... at least until the messages came to a halt.

* I gave the gifts two days early, so I was able to stretch mention of the anniversary out over three days.

Wow just got another session of nice chatting.

I'm glad that you were able to meet her need for conversation. I would keep doing that and separate those chats from any possible expectations. Maybe ask her out at a separate time, with a specific plan. Movie, yogurt, ice cream, walk etc.

In fact, if you do a family activity when YOU have the kids, and ask her out for when SHE has the kids, her mom might be able to hang with the kids. I'm not sure about your kids' ages, but this is a perfect scenario of a good UA time habit that could start now and be sustained. Of course it's a lofty goal but why not try? It might distract her once she finally agrees to go.

I'm glad that you are listening to MBR. Thank you for not being defensive. I got a different impression when you asked about acknowledging the day in a special way. If you get the archives, you might want to search about conversation or disrespectful judgments. Conversation is a need she might let you meet.

Is this your question?

Radio Clip of PTSD's E-mail

It is.
With a small amount of my first letter mixed in.
(the background info)

Even then, things are changing every day.
She is talking more... but it's all text right now.
I've held back on the flattery, and the love expressions and the talk revolves around our days.
It's like were talking to each other as friends we care about.

That is better... but at the same time, as I condition myself to communicate with her as a GF, my mentality and possibly feelings are very, very, slowly following (equalizing, if I may use that term) downward to that level, and it is a bit frightening.

I know if I see her in person the feelings will rocket back up. But as of right now, that is not happening. No face to face, no phone... just texts.

You had asked a question about increasing financial ability...

I had been working a "safety net" part time job for the past year, as I pursued avenues to return to my normal life long career.
I did increase ability by recently taking on yet a second part time job.

I mention this because of a development that has happened within just the last 24 hours.
I have returned from my "safety net" job(s) to my normal lifelong career. (at nearly 5x the pay)

We talked about that for a while during my first day and I had expressed how so may things were going to change as well as possible futures, with such an instant rise in income.
(not change for "us", but in general)

She gave me the "good for you" (not... "good for us"), and congratulations.

She in turn has had a smaller part time job, for 9 years, with a well known corporation... which she was really happy with.

For the past year she has had a second part time that is merely average.

By absolute coincidence, the very night from which I returned to my career, she was laid off from the job she enjoyed most for 9 years.
As a result, she started talking to me instead of the other way around and flooded my phone with texts about her being bummed about her development.

I consoled her, said I am hear to listen, how everything will be okay... ect.
She was also frightened as this job of hers held our family's health insurance. It was another item I consoled her about as now that I have returned to my career, the coverage will be much larger than what she had had.

It ended, without me asking, by her saying she will try to come by before work and hang out for a while, before wishing me a good night.

* I don't really believe it will happen, but it was initiated by her, and not myself.

Congratulations on the job, PTSD.

I hope that she came by. Sometimes things have to get formal and more careful before they get relaxed again.

Let us know how the evening goes.

Did she come by?

As I suspected, it didn't happen.

But... again without my asking... she said she will try to get ready earlier to give herself more time to come today.

Not holding breath, but I suppose I will see what happens.

Another no show.

Confusing as to why she is the one to say she will be here, but doesn't do it.
All I can think is that she is softer in the evenings, when she has said these things, and becomes hard again in the afternoons.

Another thing that has confused me through all of this is that when she becomes upset she mentions divorce and lawyers.
Yet has never, nor do I foresee her actually taking a step in that direction.

Curious as to why that is and if it has any meaningful hope.

How's it going PTSD?

Still very much the same.
I did get her to have an hour long phone talk a couple weeks ago, but it is still me who initiates nearly all contact. Phone conversations have become nearly non-existent and text messages pile up before a response. I am still receiving verbal abuse on a regular basis and refusals to go on any dates.

There are times when she texts in a non aggressive manner, but
it is short and refuses to continue the conversation afterward.

She has also kept the children far beyond the agreed upon days.

As of right now, I continue to remind her that I am in love with her, that she can talk with me, and after all that has happened I would not allow us to be anything else but completely happy. I have also taken chances on playful teasing to describing how well I am doing out here.

I figure I have nothing to lose, and have approached our conversations from all angles, with the exception of any anger or demands.

Most recently, I invited her to a big event this past weekend that nearly all of our friends were also attending. She had to work, but it was an event she would, in years past, take off work for.
I believe she doesn't want to show up, knowing everyone knows what happened. I assured her I would defend and stand right beside her forever.

I am contemplating stopping contact for a while, but that is a scary prospect as from what I have read on the main site, it is not recommended for separated couples to cease contact.

If I do this, I am also unsure of how long to wait before trying again.

Why are you thinking of ceasing contact? Are you not able to stay in Plan A?

I actually feel I can stay in Plan A indefinitely.

The trouble is, I have tried everything I can. Approached from many angles, continue to show support, love, and compliments. Continue to invite her places, and express that I do not want to be separated for even another day. That it is silly and unnecessary... on and on, with almost no progress.

* The latest example is that just this past weekend I finally had an opportunity to confront, face to face, the current chief officer of the charity organization. A major individual whom had bashed her publically for over a year and was a large influence in having her removed from the same position which he now holds. I absolutely defended her, won the argument, and caused him to leave the event while I was congratulated by everyone around.

I told her this and the fact that he will no longer be speaking publically about either of us or bad mouthing her again in any way.
This was a major circumstance and are all actions she has wanted taken on my part for a long time, but only came back with a sentence or two and stopped replying the rest of the day.

I offered to talk about the details, yet it resulted in nearly no response.

So, what I have now is daily built up text messages, and although I have described "I don't need... I want her" , that I don't like sending a string of messages when we can just talk, and have shown some large examples of confidence, I think it might seem to appear needy, and I am afraid she is allowing that to happen to continue a thought pattern that I am lesser than her.

I was thinking that perhaps holding off for a couple weeks in the hope she starts initiating the conversation, would show I am not needy and perhaps she might realize that.

I had thought it is yet another angle to pursue, but if that is not a recommended course, I am fine continuing with what I have been doing.

Dr Harley does not recommend 'holding off' or disengaging or whatever you want to call it. He has Plan A, and then Plan B, and nothing in between.

If you are in Plan A then you would continue to try and fill lovebanks at every possible opportunity.

You don't actually know how your texts are affecting her. Even though she refrains from responding, that does not tell you how they make her feel. It is very possible that each one is making a small love bank deposit even if you do not get a response from her indicating that it is.

I will keep up with it then.

There might be an effect. This morning I reminded her of the song that makes me think of her. She doesn't realize our phones and her laptop are still synced together and I can see what sites she visits. She looked up the song shortly after I wrote the message.

Amazing, also this morning, I said I wanted to talk with her today and that I would call at a certain time (like I do most days)and was sure that when the call was not answered I would not get a response.... but she returned it shortly later.

A 25 minute call.
Just casual conversation, but she made the effort to call back.

It started with her sarcastically saying "what do you want?", with my reply as "I want to talk with my beautiful wife", and then it quickly went into regular conversation.

She did at one point, out of nowhere, and very casually said "I am not coming back", but I passed over that and the conversation continued.

I told her I would call again tonight, and she agreed.

I'm hoping someone might weigh in on this latest circumstance.

Yesterday, after arriving home from work, I decided to call her and suggest that while I am out visiting a friend, we should sit and talk afterward. After an initial "I don't think that is a good idea" reply, and a bit more talking, she agreed.

I arrived at her mothers just after nightfall, and after some initial tension on her part, we ended up sitting on the back porch and talked for about the last 45 minutes, from the over an hour that I was there.

We talked about different leisurely subjects, we laughed several times, told jokes, spoke about the kids schooling, the odd neighbors next door, her mom, physics, math... ect.

At one point the motion sensor lights went out and we were in darkness under the stars still continuing to talk.
During our conversation, in the dark, at different points in the conversation I was able to say things like... I look to the stars and thank God that he allowed me to find you, I no longer want to be separated, that I love her, that I want to wake up next to her again, and that I don't want a divorce, that I am not giving up on her despite all that has happened.

She remained silent in her replies to those statements, despite the one answer of "maybe you should", to my mention of not giving up on her... I said no f'n way am I giving up, and the conversation continued afterward, on changes of subject.

It was really nice... considering the circumstance.

That circumstance being that just after I arrived, in the driveway pulls up my oldest daughter carrying the last of my wife's furniture along with the dressers of the two other children that had been with me this whole time.

Earlier in the day she had said on the telephone that she thinks the children will just live with her and her mom now.
I said we can talk about that at some other time.

(the lawyer had already told me all I can do about it is let her have them for now, raise a scene and cause trouble, or file a petition for custody)

* I am right now going with option #1.

At one point, in the dark, I asked what she would like to talk about and she said the kids.
I again said I don't want to talk about it right now, that all I want right now is for her to be happy.
That I no longer wish to talk about division or negativity.

I invited her to festival this weekend (although I knew she had to work) and when I said "take the day off"... she said she needed the money, at which point I told her to quit and I would support her. (I have said this several times before).
I also suggested other things we could do on her next day off... and she seemed to be open to possibly doing it.

(I also confirmed a couple times that she will do as she claimed and start depositing her paychecks in our joint account again, and get rid of the separate bank account she had opened. She said she would, but I guess I will see what happens)

After about 45 mins of talking, she said she was tired (it was 10:50pm) and it was time for us to say goodnight.

She said "I am not entirely angry that you came" and I replied with the same.
She gave me a half hearted hug, and we touched foreheads.
I told her... "I love you" once more (actually it was "I f***king love you")
She poured me coffee to go, and told me to drive safe.

Is this progress?
It feels like it, but at the same time the kids have apparently moved in to her mothers, right before my eyes, and is something I had not agreed to.

I feel I should call again tonight and express how nice it was for us to spend time together, but am torn between doing so... or let last night resonate a bit longer, before trying.

Why are the kids moving if you didn't agree to it?

It seems the kids, both girls... early to mid teens have started identifying/ empathizing wit their mom. A big change and a blow to me, considering the younger one had asked me, only a month or so ago, "can we just move on without mom".

The older girl is currently cold shouldering me and refuses to talk.

Both have now been given rooms at my wife's mothers house.

All three have hinted, from time to time, that once school lets out this would likely happen. It came two days before the last day of school.

The reason my wife gives me is that our house is currently under interior repairs in preparation for selling (which it is), so they will be staying with her and her mom now.
But I know its more than that.

I was afraid it would happen, so I had previously discussed it with the lawyer I spoke to. a As I mentioned, my only choices are to let it happen, cause an argument with my wife, or file a petition for custody.


Every choice possible hurts badly, but my best choice is likely to let them stay there for now and use the time to get the house fully ready for sale. Its really all I can do.

At the same time...

Four days ago my wife and I had the night talk I spoke of,
likely the best we have had in some time.

The following day she said it was once again fine for me to visit her at work for a while (service station) which she previously said not to come anymore.

* On that night the station was staffed solely by my wife and my oldest daughter,(age 20), and I did stay for an hour or so until the end of their shift.

My wife and I had already planned to spend time together two days from now, but during the discussion that day, we agreed on adding another day in between... yesterday.

I told her I did not want us driving off in different directions anymore... she said we will talk about it another time.

We laughed and joked afterward at the end of her shift. She reminded me, before we drove off, that we will see each other again tomorrow.

But as before, yesterday came and she changed her mind. I was told she will just be going home after work to go to sleep.
That Tuesday (2 days from now) is still fine.

Today she called a couple times and returned my calls within a couple minutes. At one point I said, I no longer want to fall asleep or wake up without her another day and had to clarify my feelings.
She said "She knows and that I have, but we are a long way from that point...yet"
I said "I know that we are".

Today I stopped in at her work again. Originally to get the kids, as they were either going to be home alone or hanging out at her work for 8 hours (Both of the children refused to come with me).

I did use the same visit today to ask my wife what she would like to do, two day from now. A haircut is already involved (which she had already agreed to) and I suggested also ordering out food and watching old kung-fu movies. She said "Yes, maybe".

We also talked about the house, and I used the opportunity to once again briefly state that if we are not to stay there I would like us to find a new and better place... She quickly said "we are never living together again" and the subject changed once more, just as fast.

It is hard to know what is progress and what is not.

The talks and visits in the last few days have been "good", but I am also watching my children move out, and although my wife has assured me, more than once, that we will see each other Tuesday, she very likely could pass it by once more.

I also still continue with a few "good morning/good night" and various texts, daily, to tell her how beautiful she is and that she is the love of my life.

* Sometimes romantic, other times playful.

** On the phone, I keep the discussion on other things, while occasionally mentioning a compliment or special feeling.

When was the last time you spoke with your lawyer?

I have had one in office consultation. It was three weeks ago.

She showed today, waiting when I got home.

We spent 3 and a half hours together, side by side, watching a movie and eating dinner. She let me into her personal space, touching, smiled, let me take a few photos for my phone, said she was "not unhappy" to be there. Agreed it was nice to spend time together... and she came up with the idea to do it again tomorrow.

I was able to say, a couple times, that my love transcends what has occurred and that when she is ready we can talk about what happened. That she can trust me.
She believed me, but didn't want to talk about it.

I was even able to touch on the subjects of love making and falling asleep together.
Both of which she said she is not yet ready for, which I expected, but she listened rather than getting upset about the subjects, or saying it is never going to happen.

She grunted a few times while talking and made it know a few times when the touching was too long. But those were the only couple lows... other than leaving before I wanted it to be over.

But, 3 and a half hours is the best we have done in a long time.

Just keep plan A'ing.

We spent another three hours together again yesterday evening. Same situation... dinner/ movie/ couch. I was able to make several deposits. More expressions of love, some touching, allowed me to kiss her cheek and head at different points, and the hugs (plural) were almost full on and lasted several seconds each. I again talked, more than once, about not wanting to be separated (she sighed, but said nothing about not wanting to return). We discussed parenting our children together rather than separately, and she also agreed (so far) to help get the house ready for sale/ rent.

* there were some other various nice moments as well.


I have been wondering about the checklist.
Other than the initial exposure on my part, and us very recently spending some leisure time together, I have gotten nothing to check off the list. I casually mention these items to her (in various ways), and she listens, but as of yet has accomplished none of them.

It seems I am doing an end-around and hoping to circle back to the list at some point in the future. I believe my first struggle should be to get us away from being separated and back together in the same home. I think if I were to push the list hard at this time, it will drive her further away. I am resolved to have this list completed, but I think I should continue to mention these items casually and cautiously, rather than having them be the first items completed.

Does this sound reasonable?

It doesn't seem logical to ask her to do anything from the list if she feels that you are firmly separated and the marriage is over. Unless she goes back to the marriage, she won't do any of the things on the list.

Is it possible to go overboard on Plan A?

If given the opportunity, I would talk to her all day, non stop.
Right now I send several texts a day, tell her I love her a few times each day, wish her goodnight and good morning, and to have a good day at work.

I call, not always successfully, a few times each day.

I also mix in romantic statements within my various texts.

Most often, she reads them, and then talks about other subjects.

But she has a said, a few various times when aggressive, that she doesn't want me to send the romantic stuff.
I tell her it is because my love for her is so strong and that I want to tell her I love her, all the time.

She has at one point, said... "That's fine, but you don't need to send the other crap".

(The other "crap" is in fact really how I feel, and not a gimmick)

The times she has told me to stop I would settle down for a while and pick it up again a day or two later.

She has said stop a couple times, but as I keep going with the plan, she seems to answer the phone more often, we spent those times together recently and she has been talking longer.

I "think" she actually likes it, but doesn't want to acknowledge it. But I can't be sure.

So, I am also unsure if expressions can be overdone.


Also...
A few subjects I am wanting to talk to her about, but am not sure if it is a good idea:

- I have not mentioned the affair since shortly after she sent the OM the "goodbye/ it's over" letter, 8 weeks ago.
(which also included the words "never regret" and "I'll always treasure")

The OM's spouse believes there has been no contact, but I am contemplating asking my wife about it again to see what she has to say about maintaining no contact.

- I would also like to more often bring up the fact that I desire us to live together again, perhaps focusing on that more often than I have.
I often say that I don't want to fall asleep or wake up without her even another day, so she knows very well I do want us back living together, but I do not want the subject to drop.

- I have started to mention that I would like her to change her work schedule, or quit altogether and let me provide everything instead.

* I have told her I would like to show her life as it is intended. (Which is not cooped up in a house and simply traveling to work and back)
I send her a photo or two, and/ or a description of what is happening, each time I am out visiting friends or attending an event.

Right now we work different shifts, and hers also involves working weekends.
This makes it very difficult to spend time together, even during the times she might be open to doing so.
(I do ask her to spend time, and give ideas on what we might do... nearly every day)

Would continuing with these ideas be recommended?

It would mean risking more opportunities for her to become irritated, but I am feeling that simply talking about non important subjects, or falling back on the same type of circle conversation is not making as much progress as there might be potential to do so.

I ask advice on asking her about maintaining no contact, because I found some 000-0000-#### text numbers, and short phone calls, placed and received 4 days ago... and again just an hour ago.

From what I understand, calls and texts from 000 numbers are international and/ or skype numbers.

The other BS says a few of those call/text times do correspond with opportunities the OM might have had to make them.


* My wife and I had a couple decent talks today and she said we will hang out for another movie and dinner, tomorrow.

She actually blurted out a bargain... "If you do "this", Ill come tomorrow for the movie/ dinner we talked about"

I didn't ask for, or want it to be phrased as a compromise/ trade off, but agreed.

She said she is not ready to move away from being separated.
But, hints at it happening at some point.
She said she is back to "liking" me and that she did not for a long time, that there is a difference between liking and loving, and that she was much less "in love" with me, for years."


She also agreed (so far) to talk to her manager and request a move away from working weekends.
She said "It doesn't mean we're going to spend every weekend together".

I said: "Several of them"

Her: "okay"

Perhaps someone can give me some advice on what I should do next...

I was stabbed in the heart 3 times today.
It went from good to bad in an instant.

I sent my wife a text this morning that read "good morning" and attached a photo of the sunrise outside the skyscraper I was working in.
She sent nice messages back describing how cool the photo was and that It was a great view.

At the end of the exchange, I playfully and literally wrote...
*[insert text here about how much you love your wife]

She replied "bah" ... and I left it there.

I called her at lunch later and suddenly she was angry upon even first picking up the phone. I talked about the time we had planned together for tomorrow (we agreed to check out a very close to home, local pub/ billiard place we had never been to) and perhaps we could go downtown on one the next few weekends.

She started treating me terribly and at one point I calmly asked "Do you respect me?"... Opposite of what I hoped the answer was, she said "no". I asked why that is, and the answer was "Because you are selfish"
I asked what it was that I might have done...

She says, [stab number one]...
"Because of the extent you went out of your way to make sure me and OM / AP can't talk to each other again."

She apparently is still holding resentment from the exposure.
*I had thought she was beyond that by the progress that has been made in the last few weeks.

I said that everything I do is for us and our children. That she is the love of my life.
She hung up and wouldn't answer the return call.

I sent a few texts explaining that all I do and all I say and all I show, is for us.
That having us together and healthy is the most important thing in my life.

Later, after work, I was to pick up my youngest daughter from the workplace of my wife and and oldest daughter (they work the service station together on some nights) and I was to have have her for the next 5 days.

* We tried the same thing a few days ago, while staying at my parents, and my daughter
(age 13) ended up calling her mom after one day and had her pick her up in the driveway after I left for work (without telling her grandmother she was leaving).

They both (my wife and daughter) agreed it would be changed to today, but as has become common, I got a text from my daughter, one hour before I was to get her, saying she did not want to come.
I asked why and got a brief answer, and the comment... "because I said so".

I called my wife (who was standing right next to her) and asked her to please explain to our 13 year old that she is not allowed to say No to her father or make demands, especially after making plans.
My wife had little interest in helping me and said "She doesn't want to go".
[stab number 2]

My daughter said she would come in a few days and when I tried to verify that it would be for 5 days, she did not answer.

(She now, as our two youngest have done several times in the last few months, will be sitting around a gas station for the next 7 hours)


[Stab 3]
I called my wife to explain that I wanted no one upset, and let her know I agreed with our daughter to wait a few days. That it will likely be for 5 days, like talked about.

My wife asked me hold on while she got her keys and went outside.

The next words I hear from her:

"I am going to say this once. We are not friends, we are not buddies, we are not pals.
I don't want you. I don't want to be married".

I say again that she is lashing out at me and ask why she is upset with me today... She says "You know why".
(I'm assuming she means the comment from earlier about how I broke up the affair)

I tell her she is the only woman I have and will love and that everything I say and do is to be the best husband and father. That I want nothing more than for all of us to be involved in each others lives... the reply was...
"I don't want you in my life. It is too little, too late"
( this is her go to phrase when angry )

I said I am sorry you are upset, then reminded her I was calling about our daughter.
I also again promised my wife that our time together tomorrow would be great.

"I'm not doing any of that" she says. "I'm done". "We are only married on paper"
"I want you to stop all of it".
"I don't have the time or patience to deal with you right now".

hung up.


What should I do?
Wait?
Try calling later?
Change my approach?

This morning I was looking forward to what would have been our first time together (since discovery) out of the house. To a few hours later having some of the worst comments I have heard in the pat reappear, without cause.

Today has been pretty scary.

My guess is the OM stopped by her work.

Email yourself the text messages.

You need to accept the fact that you are not going to talk your WW into falling in love with you. By trying to do just that, you are pushing her further into withdrawal.

You need to allow pleasant exchanges to exist without pushing on so hard. You are trying to build up your balance in her love bank. You won't do that by declarations of your love for her; you will do it by demonstrations of your love. Do you understand the difference?

Why do you ask her these questions? My goodness.

You need stop trying to negotiate with her for love. By the way, her atrocious behavior doesn't merit your love either.

You are taking one step forward and three back. And she is still deep in the fog. I am wondering if she and her AP have had contact.

Regardless, man up. Get out of negotiating for love mode and get into courtship mode. You are auditioning for the part of husband, so start doing the things that men in courtship do, and stop doing the things that men who lose in courtship do.

Make yourself look good.
Get fit
Iron our cloths and shine your shoes.
Do the things that she used to love about you. But don't expect her to react. Just do them.
Be a great and a strong father.
Cheer up, but don't feign it or put on airs.
Carry on with confidence and strength, but with genuine humility.
Have self-respect and don't mope or fret.

Do NOT suffocate her. Give her space...a lot of it.

Plan A requires you to be assertive about being the best you, but not trying to hard to accelerate or manipulate her feelings towards you. Let he see you gradually changing and becoming a better man.

There are many ways you can show her you care and love her. But do it gently and without fanfare.

Change for the girls. Change for your wife. Change for yourself.

Thanks.
The fret part is the one I have the most trouble with and throws me off track. I am still in the shock of discovering that she was so far removed from the personality and emotions she portrayed, that it is hard to find a current level path.

I become reactive upon the negative episodes.
Not outwardly, but internally.

It's the negatives that carry the heaviest perception of being permanent, at the time they are happening.
But that is getting better.
I am learning that individual episodes, good or bad, do not equal a permanence in that direction.

Within a couple phone calls yesterday, everything was back on. Like the episode had never happened. We did all we talked of doing and then some. The longest and most productive time together yet.

I do.
But right now, because she has separated from me, I feel I will not get opportunities for "...demonstrations of your love", without constantly working to gain time together.
Because we are separated, I am relying heavily on words. Most are written in texts, which leads to some phone calls, which has led recently to time together.
The semi-heavy, and sometimes romantic texting has lead to a few angry outbursts on her part, but seems to have proved to be the most productive path.

Of course I very well could be misconstruing what is and is not working.


I am also a bit confused as my last radio show advice was to ask her for a date at least every other day. A few posts back it was suggested I keep up with the messages, even if many go unanswered, because I don't really know what type of effect they are having.

Now it is suggested that I give her lots of space
(which I believe means laying off on the attempts at communication).

This is a bit scary because I am also struggling with the fear/ belief that if a day goes by in which we do not have any communication whatsoever, might result in another small thread broken and another day she conditions herself to live without me.

Is tough to judge by the hour.
Within just the last three days she went from not wanting anything to do with me (phone) to us spending 4.5 hours going out together (in person), to not answering texts and getting briefly upset yesterday (phone), to (in person) saying we will spend time together again (the day after today,) to once again not replying the few messages and a phone call I tried today.
(And in the last couple days I have refrained from writing how much I love and miss her)

You need to ALWAYS take the advice that Dr Harley gave you.

Not everyone has read your thread right through. Your thread is very long, and people don't always have the time to read back several pages before responding to your latest post. They do not realise that you have been given advice directly from Dr Harley - but you DO know this. Why would you question his advice?

You've been here almost every day, sometimes several times a day, second-guessing your every move and not maintaining a consistent line. You've been told what Plan A involves - and when your wife has moved out and you want to win her back, it does not involve giving her "lots of space".

You are your own worst enemy in the way that you take every change of mood from your wife, and every smile and every frown, as meaning that she has had a change of heart and you need to change your strategy. You don't. Do Plan A the way Dr Harley told you to do it.

Thank you SugarCane. I'll keep at it while trying not to smother.


I do have another question...

I found out today that she is following and receiving notifications of updates from the OM's Instagram account.

He also has several photos on Instagram of him and my wife together.

The notification also states she and the OM are FB friends.

I know he deactivated his FB accounts, and I can find no trace on FB of the name he uses on Instagram. I believe FB allows users to hide their accounts from selected individuals. The OM's spouse says she believes he doesn't have a FB account any longer, but Instagram says otherwise. So I am believing he is hiding a FB account not only from me, but from his wife as well.

I have just told the OM's wife what I discovered.

My questions are... Can I do anything else about this?
I would like to report his page, and post comments on the photos. But I have a feeling the comments will be removed and I will be blocked from the OM's Instagram account.

I might also be able to access my wife's FB, but it will definitely send her a notification that someone in our town has accessed her account. So I have not tried.

Should I ask my wife if she is still following the OM online? Or tell her that I know?

I am also thinking of asking my 20 year old daughter to ask her mom to stop following the OM online. Is this a bad idea?

I am almost considering another round of exposure letters, at least a message to his father, asking for help by pointing out the Instagram account and the photos.

* FB messenger says the previous exposure messages were "read", but the OM's father never did reply to the two previous messages.
(one exposing the affair, and the other asking for help including my contact information)

I am considering this because although the OM's BS shows concern about her marriage, she doesn't seem to make demands on change.
She has gotten her WH to show her his skype account, but every other electronic device (and chat program), including phone and laptop are still locked from her.

She hasn't made him change his email address(es), phone number, or remove my wife as a contact on his phone.

(I did very recently give the other BS the recovery checklist, to bring her to speed on judging progress)

He has remained living in their spare back room of the house and she is set on "giving him space".
The other BS seems more concerned with helping...him... through... His.. therapy sessions and "sadness".

Other BS hasn't changed routines either. For example, still takes showers at the same times she did when he snuck calls,
lets him continue going on his outdoor "walks", which he used to sneak calls. Doesn't check on him during his work lunch, where he again snuck calls and messages to my wife.

* Months ago, the other BS asked me to stop contacting her WH becauses it causes him more depression and doesn't help her on that end.
(This happened after my OM confrontation letters were sent)

** But, I just found out yesterday from my wife that the other BS has contated her very recently to ask if she was still talking to her husband.

The other BS did not inform me she was doing this.
(The other BS also gave me up as the person who initiated the conversation/warning that contact might still be happening or perhaps attempts were made)

So, I am leaning to adding comments to the many instagram photos on the OM's account.
( Something along the line of... "Remove these photos of you and my wife! You know exactly why!" )

Of course my WW will get an email notification that there has been activity on the OM's Instagram account and see the comments.
So, I am torn between doing so or leaving it alone.

To the other BS's credit, she had previously told me months ago that her WH has been told if he gets on another airplane to the USA, he is out.
She has also cross referenced the times of the recent "000-000" phone numbers (I mentioned above).
Unfortunatly, half of them are confirmed opportunities that the OM could have called.
(Again, because the other BS has not changed her daily routine)

But, there has been no advancement on that end otherwise.

I have asked the other BS for an update on her stating that she will talk to her WH about blocking my WW from his instagram.
("Blocking"... not removing the photos. I have also asked for clarification on that)

At the same time, my wife and I spent nearly the whole day together yesterday, with our two youngest children, attending a charity function and marching in a holiday parade (arriving to the event separately), surrounded by many mutual friends (whom are also members of our organization).

This was my wife's first time interacting with our friends, since my discovery and exposure.

* Nearly everyone in attendance, dozens of them, know what has happened.

** Yet none of those whom are closest to her (some of the very first I exposed to) were willing to hold her accountable. They spoke with her as if nothing was amiss.
My WW was able to interact with nearly everyone as if nothing was wrong.

Some did come to me separately and express they were sorry, but my wife experienced or heard none of this.

While together, my wife went up and down from laughing, joking and taliking with me, to a small outburst against me, in front of others (loudly accusing me of "following her around" when I came up to talk with her at one point), to again lauging and talking, to mentioning that I will be recieving divorce papers soon (I believe it will not happen but I can not really know)... to again laughing, joking and talking.

The event ended with me asking her if we will spend time together (eyes swelling, while holding back tears) and her saying "I will try, but I can't promise anything".

Shortly after, she drove away with our children to an out of state holiday spot for the next few days, for which I was told I am not invited to go with.

We were able to talk about quite a few things regarding us and the condition we are in, and I believe I was able to make several deposits, but like nearly all of our interactions... they start with absolute uncertainty, bounce up and down (on her part), then end with absolute uncertainty.

Later that night, I texted to ask if they arrived safely, that I had fun, that I love her and our children and wished her a goodnight. She replied by stating everyone had a good time, they did arrive safely and also said goodnight back to me.

(My messages spoke of love and family, while hers were short and straight to the point)

But again today, she is back to ignoring the couple messages I have sent and the one phone call I tried to make.

It is mentally hard to deal with on a daily basis and I still have at least one long or short breakdown per day.

* The scary part now is that Dr. Harley mentioned on the program that if after 3 months of non-substantial progress (following my wife's "semi"-no contact letter to the OM), I find we are still in basically the same position, he would be concerned.
That date is 3 weeks from today.

Yesterday might be considered progress, but she has blown off the last two times we agreed to spend time together, and was going to attend this event (while bringing our children with), with or without me.

I'm hoping someone might be able to give some advice on my questions above.

I'm trying to remove triggers that may cause her to seek out contact with the OM.

-------
The last few days have been pretty bad.
Since the charity event 5 days ago she has taken only 3 calls and replied to none of the texts.
Two of the calls accepted were a few days ago (same day) in which she became angry quickly and hung up on me.

I've continued to text her as I have been. A mixture of funny jokes, suggesting little things we might do together, inviting her to activities our friends are planning as a group, and talking about wanting to spend my life with her and building a marriage in which she would be completely happy.

All of it simply ignored with no response.

She accepted the third call yesterday in which she was pleasant. She said the jokes were funny, but also said she wished I would stop texting her. We then talked for a minute normally about the trip she just had with our children and another random subject. I again asked if she was planning to alter her work schedule to free up weekends so we could start spending weekends together (something she has agreed to, then not agreed to, several times). Her answer was... "I don't know". This is her answer to nearly every question I ever ask. We talked normally for another minute, before she said she was getting off the phone now. I asked her if she would call me later and she said "I will call you later", I showed excitement in that answer before saying goodbye.... her call back didn't happen.

I texted another joke latter in the evening and also let her know I would rather spend time with my wife than my guy friends. I also said I was so tired of us not being under the same roof.

Perhaps the last few posts were too long?

I tried to break the questions up with a bit of relavant info.

I haven't yet acted on anything Ive asked about above.

Hi PTSD,
I haven't read your whole thread but do see you have a lot of questions.
Can you send a quick follow up with Dr Harley on them? It seems like some of the things he has asked you to do is a little different and maybe that is keeping others from commenting.

Sorry I don't have any advise other than that!

I have been trying to compose another letter, but as I add info as to why I am asking the questions, it is becoming lengthy. (Trying to re-write it shorter).

Until then, would someone give me advice on one of the questions above? This is something I am wishing to do something about, today...


I found out my W is following and receiving notifications of updates from the OM's "Instagram" photo account.

He also has several photos on Instagram of him and my wife together.

The notification also states she and the OM are FB friends.

I know he deactivated his FB accounts, and I can find no trace on FB of the name he uses on Instagram. I believe FB allows users to hide their accounts from selected individuals. The OM's spouse says he deactivated his FB accounts, but Instagram says he and my wife are still "friends".

(perhaps deactivated, but not deleted FB accounts still show "friends" ??)

I also might be that he is hiding a FB account not only from me, but from his wife as well.

I have told the OM's wife what I discovered.


My questions are...

Can I do anything else about this?
I would like to report his Instagram page, and post comments on the photos. But I have a feeling the comments will be removed and I will be blocked from the OM's Instagram account.

I might also be able to access my wife's FB, but it will definitely send her a notification that someone in our town has accessed her account. So I have not tried.

Should I ask my wife if she is still following the OM online?
Or tell her that I know?

I am almost considering another round of exposure letters.
At least a message to OM's father and sister, asking for help by pointing out the Instagram account and the photos.

* FB messenger says the previous exposure messages were "read", but the OM's father never did reply to the two previous messages.
(one exposing the affair, and the other asking for help including my contact information)

* The OM's sister accepted my friend request, and I wrote to her afterward, so I know she received my letters... but also did not reply. She in fact still has me listed as a FB friend.

I am considering this because although the OM's BS shows concern about her marriage, she doesn't seem to make demands on change.
She has gotten her WH to show her his Skype account, but every other electronic device (and chat program), including phone and laptop are still locked from her.

She hasn't made him change his email address(es), phone number, or remove my wife as a contact on his phone.

(I did recently give the other BS the recovery checklists, to bring her to speed on judging progress)

He has remained living in their spare back room of the house and she is set on "giving him space".
The other BS seems more concerned with helping...him... through... His.. therapy sessions and "sadness".

Other BS hasn't changed routines either. For example, still takes showers at the same times she did when he snuck calls,
lets him continue going on his outdoor "walks", which he used to sneak calls. Doesn't check on him during his work lunch, where he again snuck calls and messages to my wife.

* Months ago, the other BS asked me to stop contacting her WH because it causes him more depression and doesn't help her on that end.
(This happened after my original OM confrontation letters were sent)

So, I am leaning to adding comments to the many Instagram photos on the OM's account.

( Something along the line of... "Remove these photos of you and my wife! You know exactly why!" )

Of course my WW will get an email notification that there has been activity on the OM's Instagram account and see the comments.
So, I am torn between doing so or leaving it alone.

It may also result in severing contact with the other BS as she asked me not to cause him further grief.

To the other BS's credit, she had previously told me months ago that her WH has been told if he gets on another airplane to the USA, he is out.
She has also cross referenced the times of the recent "000-000" phone numbers (I mentioned above).
Unfortunately, half of them are confirmed opportunities that the OM could have called.
(Again, because the other BS has not changed her daily routine)

But, there has been no advancement on that end otherwise.

I have asked the other BS for an update on her stating that she will talk to her WH about blocking my WW from his Instagram.

("Blocking"... Not actually removing the photos)

As of yet it appears neither have been done.

Should I do this?
Should I run it by the other BS first?
I would like to keep making it very difficult for him to keep pining after my wife.

And, should I try to access my wife's FB account?... knowing she will find out?

Thank you everyone.

Have you told her that it hurts you immensely, for her to continue her affair with OM?

I have told her this once before.
I was told in this thread that because she separated it doesn't have the effect it should.

There have been other times that she has seen me upset and the reply has been "I am sorry this is hurting you".
(in regard to being separated and her saying it is over)


edit:

If anyone reads this thread, you will remember the OM lives half way around the world.
There is virtually no chance of him coming to the USA again.

Still not sure what to do about the Instagram photos.


Would it be a detriment to tell her about the MB program?

Perhaps not by name, but to let her know there is a program I have found that shares the same beliefs about creating, improving and healing marriages, and ask if she would like to learn about it?

I'm nearly positive she will not be willing to participate, but perhaps talking about my efforts and desire to heal, and letting her know there is help out there that I have taken the time to learn about, perhaps it will function as a deposit?

I have written another letter to the radio show, it should air within the next few days. I've included most of the questions that I have asked recently.

I have also gone and talked to my wife's mother again to bring her up to date on what is/ has been happening.

--------

What I did not ask in my letter to the program, and am hoping someone might give their advice on, is the question just above about mentioning the program ?

Another is...
I am still able to access our family's cell phone plan and records. My wife is listed as the primary account holder, but it is one of the few websites that she has not changed her password on and does in fact know I am able to see this information.

I discovered yesterday that she is sending 100's of texts back and forth to a number I have never seen before. This is a number in a neighboring town, not from the OM, whom lives overseas.

Best I can gather (but not 100 percent certain), by searching the number online, is that this is a male coworker. The texts have been literally one or more per minute, for several days.
They are at all hours of the day and night, including early AM, like 1 to 3 in the morning. I tried calling this number, while masking my number as private, but it goes to a generic "leave a message" recording, with no name expressed.
(likely the person did not pick up because my incoming call would have showed as a "private number")

The incoming texts are heavier than her outgoing texts but she is regularly replying and continuing the conversation. Sometimes it drops to a 1 to 1 ratio.

Should I ask her about this?
Is there anything else I can/ should do?

She does know I can still access the phone carrier's website and our family phone records. There is a possibility however that if I do ask, she will change the password to the carrier's website and/or shut my phone off.

* Our phones are still synced, and I am able to see the websites she visits, and her gps location 24 hours a day.

These two questions have now jumped to the top of my concerns.
I had thought I was sending too many texts at about 8 to 10 per day, and have thought about stopping for several days, as not to seem needy (and she has stopped replying to them).

Checking the phone records today, I've discovered that she has sent back and forth 1400 texts to that mystery number, in just the past 4 days.

I am very scared she is jumping right into another affair.
I have printed out the phone records that show instances of the texting (53 pages), but have no idea what to do next.

I have thought about handing them to her mother. Perhaps she will ask her daughter about it.
Or leaving them on her car at work with a note asking her to please stop.
Or maybe sending her a message or an email, explaining that I know what she is doing, asking who is at the other end of the text, and that it needs to end.

* Recently, she had told me about buying paintball tickets.
It is something we talked of doing, after discovery. I had been coming up with ideas of spending recreational time together and this was something she seemed interested in.
She had refused, but informed me some weeks ago (after our time at the mall) that she bought six pairs of tickets and thought it would make me happy if we were to do this together.
I told her she was wonderful for doing this and that It would be a great time. She said she did not want to start right away but that we could in the fall.

But, she has since stopped answering my calls, stopped replying to texts, and has now started sending all of these messages to an unknown person at an unknown number.

I don't want to blow the possibility of this time together from happening by doing something rash, although I am frightened she has already cancelled it in her mind.

Perhaps the best way to respond to the discovery of these texts is to write a love letter (through email so that I may check that it was read).
I have just written a letter. It describes memories of the past, my passion and love today, and if she will allow me to, a building of a wonderful life and marriage. The desire for her to return with our children, and what to expect in our and our family's future.

I am working on sending it. What I am unsure of is if I should explain a little about what I will need from her in return, or if I send those things in a following letter.

Perhaps a following letter will be best(?)
I would like to, and feel I need to express that I need to know her contact with the OM has truly ended, and that I need her to stop texting this other person, whomever it may be.
Perhaps I can mention the MB program and invite her to read and/or start with a specific page. Perhaps mention that we can start a thread together.
If I do mention the program and the website, I will be able to check and find if she actually visits.

Have you researched the new number? Who does it belong to? What does the spyware tell you?

I have no spyware.
Because we are separated, I have no opportunity to install any.
I would not be able to anyway as her phone is locked with thumbprint access.
What I have are synced phones which allow me to see the websites she visits and monitor her movements by GPS.

I have access to the phone providers website, which allowed me to discover the texts. I also have access to her, at one time, primary email account. She has since created several more email accounts allowing her "primary" account to be filled with 10's of thousands of spam messages.
She now uses other accounts which I can not access as her methods of communication.
I could try to guess my way into them but they are @gmail accounts and send a notification text to her when accessed.
The email account I am most concerned about is one she created using her middle and maiden name as the address. Apparently to conceal her identity.
I had asked her about this account and the reply was... "that is the account I want you to stay the h*ll away from."

As far as researching the phone number of the texts, I found a possible match with a name that I "believe" is the same as someone she works with. This name is listed as residing in a neighboring town, so I am almost certain It is correct.

I tried calling a couple times, while hiding my number as private, but it is a generic "leave a message" recording.

I am frightened she is jumping right into another affair.
Over 1400 texts in 4 days, at all hours of the day and night.

At the same time, she has stopped replying to my messages and phone calls for over a week, with the exception of a couple sentences. I have continued to send 8 or so per day, trying to engage a reply, and try calling once or twice per day with no reply or get cut off after a couple rings.
I have not tried to communicate with her today, with the exception of the emailed love letter described above. I thought I would wait until I confirm she has read it before I try to resume conversation.
It could be days as she has allowed the account to basically become a trash heap, and does not regularly check it.
* I did think about sending it to one of her other accounts, including the one I have just mentioned that she told me she wanted to stay away from.

** I am unsure as to send a follow up letter explaining that I need to be reassured her affair is over and that she is not pursuing yet another man. I am also unsure if I should mention MB and invite her to join me in learning about it.

In my messages I am constantly coming up with new ideas of spending time together, but am really getting nowhere with it.
Only two occasions in July, totaling about 12 hours.

It's driving me a bit crazy and causing anxiety. She was at it again all day today. She is talking to this number, very likely another man, as I type this. I am almost willing to directly ask who she is talking to so often and directly calling the number without hiding whom is calling and outright confronting them.

What I did do was send a message hours ago stating that I hope her day was going okay and asked if she would like to get coffee or something to eat tomorrow as we both have off work.

When that got no answer, I sent the second text of the day, about an hour ago, with this...
(borrowing ideas from another thread)

"It bothers me that you have a wall up. It hurts to think you might be filling conversation with another. I would very much love to spend some time with you and give you the center of my attention. To concentrate on pleasant activities and resolve troubles".

So did you do research on this guy? Is he married? Have you researched to see if he is on social media?

I have had little luck finding him on social media, but I believe I have found people around him.
I'm not 100 percent positive.

Is this a topic that should go to the "Investigate" forum?
Or, should I post what I have found here?

I'm not sure that I am on the right track and I have forks in the road. I would very much appreciate help and opinions on how to proceed on what will now be my second investigation.

I also have the lingering questions on if I should send a follow up letter to my WW about texting others and/or inviting her to MB.

I think you should keep your outreach and requests for conversation light and not make DJs like "you have a wall up". These will only get her defences up.

This may just be me, but the wording of "I would love to give you the center of my attention" is likely to turn off someone who is not in love with you. I would receive it as smothering. Just keep it light - "hope your day is going well/saw this and thought of you/did you see the news about XYZ?"

ETA: is she an animal lover? There are a gazillion adorable/hilarious GIFS and photos on the internet of puppies/kittens whatever. I bet those would bring a smile to her face. Again, if she likes animals.

Thank you.

This is so hard to know what is right and wrong to say.
We have been married for over 21 years and together for over 23.
Through this entire ordeal I have only gotten tiny bits of information from her, some which do not make sense, as to why any of this even exists. I struggle on what to say to make progress or drive it away.

edit:

She has not read the love letter I sent yesterday.
It spoke of how beautiful she looked during our children's birth.
Our wedding.
My promise to create happiness.
That our marriage is worth fighting for and saving.
Baby steps.
Asking to arrange time together.
Fun.
Future.
...ect.

Is such a letter too much?

I do see it recommended quite often.
Should I remove it (before she reads it)?

The words which are written are all very true and with love, and it seemed the first thing I should do to fight back against the discovery of 1400 text messages in 4 days, and possibly an immediate back to back affair.

I'm concerned the radio advice last given (three months ago), of asking her to spend time together, at least every other day, and treat her wonderfully and there is a possibility of seeing light at the end of three months... combined with the advice here in the thread of continuing to text... (its really all I have right now) has caused her to basically break contact.

Perhaps she took it as pushing or smothering.
She would bounce up and down with agreeing to do so, to blowing off the scheduled time as it drew near... then just stopped communication.

We have done and do much better in person, and I have mentioned this to her, but getting her to agree to spend time together, or now even respond, is very hard.

Has she said anything to you about such letters in the past? You don't want to be expressing yourself in ways that will not make deposits AND will annoy her to boot.

Again, this depends on where her mind is at but I think you should be careful with OTT statements even if they are, undoubtedly, motivated by sincere love and affection. Try and be a fun person to be around, not overly intense and emotional.

This would be my first such letter.
I have made statements in the past of each of the tings I've talked about, but never compiled in a full length letter.

I have removed it from her inbox. I'll have to think about it some more, before I possibly resend it/ move it back.

I am now down to only a couple/ few unanswered texts per day.
I am not sure how to fight back against over 300+ per day by this new OM.

-----------

I researched the new OM whom she has been texting with.
He is not on any social media that I can find, but there are apparent relatives who are. According to spokeo.com he is married. But if I remember what has been said in the past about my WW's co-workers, this person is not his wife, but the ex-girlfriend/ mother of his child. I believe I have found her as well.
I also believe this OM is a person whom was living in their car, behind the service station in which my WW works. The manager gave him a job just to keep him from hanging out back all the time.

How do I approach these people and what do I say?
I also have his phone number of course, and his email. Should I call/ email and attempt to confront him?
If I do, I am sure my WW will hear about it within minutes.
I risk having the synced phone shut off and the password to the service provider changed.

my 20yr old daughter works at the same place and she would be able to give me more info. Such as if he still works there, if he is married, confirm the name of his girlfriend/ ex-GF... ect.
But, I am not sure if I should bring this to her. She does know about the affair which started this thread and does not approve, but at the same time, seems to favor her mother.

I have found many possible relatives of this person she has been talking to. Young, old, possibly aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, cousins. There are quite a lot, so I am unsure.
while I am figuring out a way to approach them, I am wondering if I should tell my WW that I know she is talking to another man night and day and how painful it is.

Right now I am resisting the urge.

* I am not even sure she has really or fully broken off contact with the OM that brought me here. Now I have to deal with two at the same time.
The first one, considering he lives across the world, had me quite optimistic. This one is very close by. Very likely nothing physical has happened, but it is, I believe, an affair by definition.

Just sent out 31 friend requests to all of the possible relatives I could find of this new other person.

Should I have sent them all at once?

I am wondering if they will compare notes of some unknown person whom has sent a bunch of family members a friend request and perhaps I should pull some back and space them out over a bit of time.

What should my next step be, if and when any of them accept?
I am at a loss of what to say or how to say it.

While it is almost certain that she is having another affair, this isn't enough evidence for you to take the first step on discovery, which is to expose the affair. Before you expose, you need to have enough evidence to convince a jury, and this isn't it.

The only thing you can do, with her being separated from you, is to continue to monitor the phone records, and try other means to get evidence. If you have no other means at your disposal, because she is separated from you, then you cannot proceed on this one.

With time, other evidence might emerge. Be patient.

Okay. I will.
(I have however let the friend requests remain)

In the meantime should I talk to my oldest daughter about this?

If this is the person whom I believe (almost certain) it is, my daughter would have also worked with them at and know who he is.
I feel the need to inform her that her mother is once again carrying on with another, but am not sure if it is the right move. I am sure my WW is once again hiding everything from our children.

Is she the 21 year-old?

If so, I think you need to work out whether you can convey to her that at present, you're highly suspicious of an affair, but the volume of texts alone is not evidence. You also cannot say for sure that the recipient is the man you suspect - unless you are now cast-iron sure about his phone number.

If you can convey that this is only a suspicion, and if you can trust her to keep cool and not accuse her mother without further evidence, then perhaps you can confide in her. She might be able to help you get more evidence, since she's worked with them.

It's possible that this man was the real affair partner all long, and the one overseas was long dead, as she said it was.

I am absolutely sure of the name that belongs to the phone number. I am also sure of the name of the woman whom is associated with that man's name. I found them both connected through google plus.
I am 90% sure both of the names match WW's co-worker (now possibly ex-coworker) and the stories I was told about his
(ex?) wife/girlfriend.

I am also sure of the length and timeframe of the affair with the OM overseas. I am still in contact with that OM's spouse. And she confirmed the events as they unfolded.

What neither I nor the first OM's spouse is sure of is if they are still sneaking contact with each other.

My letter was addressed on the 8/10 radio episode. I listened to it (several times) today. It was of some help, but the first part of the response talked about the need for exposure, which of course I had already done almost 5 months ago. It also spoke of contacting the OM, which I had also done at that time.

* I would like to send him further messages, but the other BS asked me not to, just after my original confrontation letters. So, I am unsure if I should do this and risk severing contact with the other BS and her updates ?

The rest of the response became jumbled together and a bit convoluted, combing some unrelated questions into one, which lead to answers that kind of didn't pertain to my situation.
I sent another, much shorter letter today rephrasing and asking a few immediate questions of concern.


Speaking of the other BS. She contacted me just hours ago warning me that her WH is VERY SOON flying to Canada and to be on the alert that contact, or even a meeting, may happen between her WH and my WW.
The other BS insists it is due to a family emergency at the request of his parents in Canada. She said she can not give me details of the circumstances until her WH returns home.

This concerns me greatly because within my original discovery of the affair evidence was talk between the two of them, shortly before discovery, of him again coming to visit my WW this very summer.
I had informed the other BS, when originally informing her of the affair (and several times afterward) if it were to happen it would likely be in August as each of the 3 years of the affair included them seeing each other in August. He has also given his spouse the lie of visiting his parents in Canada before, to in fact take a trip with or visit my WW.
It is now August and by "coincidence" he is about to board a plane in this direction.
The other BS asked me to monitor the situation, and I would like to, but I am not sure how I can do this.

The other BS and I also talked about some of the original evidence, which includes over two years of her WH and my WW's Facebook chat.

I have a question about this piece of evidence.
Upon first discovery I attempted to read it. I could not get past the first several messages as it immediately became online sex. I might be able to get through more of it, if I were to try.
Is there a benefit to trying?
Perhaps there might be something in there describing what it was that made my WW unhappy? Or actions which lead to the affair. It will be very painful to read, but perhaps I can get through it in small doses.

It was also suggested on yesterday's show that I should study the OM and what needs he was providing. Perhaps reading 2 years of their communications will accomplish that (?)

Is there any advice or precautions I can pass along to the other BS so that she may ensure her WH is not communicating with or possibly visiting my WW?

Does the OM's BW have spyware on her WH?

Why doesn't she go on the trip with him?

I will ask about spyware, but I do not believe the other BS has been allowed to get that close enough to her WH's electronics.

She says she can not go with because her job would not allow it and the high expense of a last minute flight across the world.

Again on the radio show a few things were jumbled and mixed together as to my questions and actions and lead to some assumptions that don't exist. I guess it is understandable when condensing material.

For example,
During this entire time, I have not once been disrespectful while talking to my WW. I was also not referring to trying to call her as "investigating". I believe the discovery of these new texts and where they lead me, is the investigating.
I did not ask about printing up MB material and in some way
leaving it for my WW to find. I was speculating about making the texts known to her.
My father did not mention the word stalking in relation to calling my WW on the phone. He was referring to the fact that our phones remain synched. I also have not attempted to call my WW continuously since she last quit responding. Some days I have not tried at all and others I have tried once or twice.
Texting and calling are the actions that were making some progress. The times we have spent together were a result of doing so. It has been hard to get her to communicate, but she was talking enough, and positive enough times, to bring us up to last week.

Even so, I have taken the advice and am in a holding pattern.

What I am confused about is that my last advice 3 months ago was to ask my WW, at least every other day, if she would like to do things. I am believing "at least every other day" was because I could expect many "no" answers and then gently ask again in the next day or two. That by doing so, I might catch her in an agreeable mood, which I have a few times. That there might be light at the end of the tunnel after 3 months.

This latest advice mentions that if she gives a "no" answer I should stop. Seems a bit conflicting. I had slowed it down some and rarely mentioned the same activity twice, mixed it up between small activities together, time with the children, to already arranged gatherings with friends. But, did not completely stop over these last 12 weeks.

Bad news. I'm not even sure how to react. Discovered today that my WW has apparently bought a plane ticket to NY. This is devastating. I am guessing I tell the other BS first. I think I should also let our families know.

Bad news. I'm not even sure how to react. Discovered today that my WW has apparently bought a plane ticket to NY. This is devastating. I am guessing I tell the other BS first. I think I should also let our families know. How do I tell my children?

I would also like to send a message to the OM telling him I know what is happening. Despite what the other BS has asked. If I do this, or even tell the other BS, I risk it quickly getting back to my WW and loosing just about everything. It is hard to even comprehend this is happening.

Yes you need to let them all know. And you tell your children the truth.

I am right now sending a message to the other BS. My children will be tougher. Since my WW took our children 6 weeks ago, while I was at work one day, they have often repeated phrases I have heard from my WW and basically stopped communicating. I could drive to my WW's mother's tomorrow and attempt to talk with them and my MiL.

The other BS will likely confront her WH. Is there anything I can pass along on what to say? (Or attempt to keep my name from being the source) Should I send a message to OM?
To my WW?
The OM's father, sister?

Other BS has already sent a letter to her husband stating she knows they are going to meet each other, and if he does he will need to move out. She is not sure it will have any effect. Tomorrow is my Birthday. What a nightmare.

Ill need to decide in the next few hours about who to tell, on both sides of the Affair and how. I could really use some help on this. I believe I must go to my MiL's house and tell her and my children. Do I do it while my WW is there, or wait until she is at work?


Edit:

My WW is aparently still reading my texts. The last couple I sent, two days ago, included mentioning a new movie trailer. She gooogle searched for the trailer yesterday. Also, my phone on our faimily plan is set to renew today or be optionally removed. I don't know what button she will click. Discovered the password to phone carriers site has now been changed.

Sorry to post rapidly, but situations are unfolding fast.
This is the evidence I have of my WW and her apparent purchase of the airline ticket.
(Like many other discoveries, this didn't even require searching. Whenever I turn on my phone, the internet history is right there in front of me).

Her website visits were in this order:

- Research on several known travel sites for flights to buffalo, NY. Departing in three days, returning two days later.

*Other BS has confirmed this is the very same day her WH will be arriving in Toronto Canada (99 miles away), supposedly visiting a friend, after leaving his parents house (also in Canada. 1500 miles away from Toronto).

These are the cities just North and South of Niagara Falls, a trip they took previously, while supposedly promoting our charity at a different location.

- My WW then applied for and started the process of obtaining a (major bank/ major airline combination) credit card designed to give frequent flyer miles.

Then on to the direct airline site, including (in order) the "Choose your seat", "review and pay" and "reservation confirmation" pages.

Other BS sent me her WH's reply to her letter stating she knows what is happening. Her WH's reply was filled with anger, and outright denying of crossing the boarder or planning to see my WW. (It is possible, but unknown, if my WW has obtained a passport in the last 5 months)
Additionally, the Other BS's husband stated that it is very tempting for him to simply remain in Canada from now on.
Other BS has considered informing her WH's parents, but has not done so.


Telling my children and MiL...
My oldest daughter has already accused me of stalking, in relation to the list of texts I found (with this apparent 2nd OM).
*The list of texts were right on the phone record website that I help pay for.
My oldest also believes I have tried to look at my WW's social media accounts and the alternate email accounts she has created... which I have not.
I had mentioned a couple days ago, that I would like to talk with my oldest child to clear up some of the things she believes I have doing. Now I somehow have to explain I have not been stalking... and then go right into knowing about the airline ticket. Not sure how to do that and not look like a liar.

There is a chance my two younger daughters will backlash against me and cut me off further, for even knowing, or caring about my WW's plans.
The is also a good possibility my MiL will tell me to give up and there is nothing she can do. She has already asked why I want to stay with her daughter, considering her being so difficult a person.

I am unsure how to approach any of these, yet have to do so today as there will not be another opportunity, before the departure date.

Tell your MIL and children that you are trying to save your marriage, but you can't do that when their Mom is having an affair. And when 2 people are married there should be complete transparency and no secrets and that both Husband and Wife should have complete access to each other's social media and everything. I'm sorry that your WW continues to lie to your children. Eventually the children will see the truth.

Also, tell them you know you've made mistakes in the marriage and that you're learning to become a better Husband, Father and man.

I went to my MiL's 3 days ago and informed her and my middle child as to what was discovered. I did not use the exact words written by BrainHurts just above as I did not read them in time, but I believe I did handle it and inform them in a very good way. Calm, softly, and laid out the facts. I told my child that I will keep working and doing everything I can to make things better.

My MiL said she would speak to my WW that night when my wife returns from work. Because, as my MiL put it... she "hates being lied to". I'm not sure what that means, but my MiL told me just days before that she was sure it was over between my WW and the OM.
My MiL is also believing the OM's BS is quite possibly the liar and trouble maker. Because that is what she has been told about her. I told my MiL that I had once thought about that but the other BS really has nothing to lie about. I told my MiL, calmly, that the two of them have told so many lies, to so many people, for so long, it is hard to believe anything either of them say about their spouses.
She agreed.

I have no idea what was said between the two of them and no one is sure what will happen until today. If my WW disappears or doesn't. I likely will not know what happens unless I go to my MiL's again, or attempt to call my MiL.




Should I not be trying and/or continuing to convey some of this to my WW?
My last advice, after writing the program, was to stop attempting to communicate. But at the same time, several of my questions were meshed together and the speculation was that I was pushing harder than I believe I have, and that I was possibly being disrespectful when talking with her. Which I have not.

I have not made a single attempt, since hearing the program.

Here is the day of your show. Radio Show Of PTSD's E-mail

In regard to this likely new OM. I had his name, email, phone number and home address fall into my lap. His online info also states he is married.Beyond the texts, I also know why WW has recently spent time there. Is it suggested that I do anything about this?

Per the show advice, I have been holding off on initiating messages to my WW. She has actually been contacting me. Unfortunately it is mainly to ask for things and make cold statements. I let those go right by and instead say nice things in return.

In your update to Dr. Harley did you tell him about this new OM? What did he say?

I did include it within my letters.
The advice given was a bit confusing as my questions, actions and circumstances were blended together and a bit confused with each other. The advice given was after that blending.

What was said in regard to this new OM is that if I did not know who he is I was in trouble. But nothing about any actions I should or should not take, in direct response.
I am assuming the statement meant if I did not know who he is I was in trouble, but if I were to know who he is, there is something I can do.

I do now know who he is, and where he is.
So, I am unsure of what my next step should be.

What hard evidence do you have of an affair with this new OM? When you first mentioned him, you had only the volume of phone calls/texts, which I said was not enough to expose.

I talked to her just a little while ago, in person.
I brought up that there should be no secrets or hiding between us. Among many other things, I told her she is the love of my life and that it has never been otherwise for even a minute.
She knew that I know about this new OM and I asked if she was having another affair.
She said she does not consider it an affair because in her mind we are not married.
So, she has now admitted to it.

During the whole conversation I remained calm and expressed several of the lessons I have learned here. She was abusive, insulting and accused me of many things that are not true.
she is really bent on repeatedly calling ME a liar. About almost anything.

She said it does not matter that she never talked to me about being unhappy. It does not matter if I knew about it or not. That it does not matter that I tried to find out and she refused to talk.

I had felt we were dong better (relatively speaking). She now says she hates me.
I know this large downward change in personality and attitude match to the time she started carrying on with this new OM.

I left after telling her I love her and our children and would keep learning and working to be the best husband and father.

I am lost as what to do.

I do know I am really fighting the urge to go confront this other person at their home.

I am also very much considering sending her a letter expressing the need not only to end the affairs, but also describing MB and the great lessons to be learned here. To express that it would be wonderful if she were to join me in learning about it.

I don't know how it could hurt.

You won't be able to "talk sense" into her. The human mind doesn't work that way. It sounded to me like the Harley's thought you should give her some space. Once you've exposed the affair, all you can do is wait it out. Plan A is designed to leave a good last memory with the spouse so that they will want to try again when everything comes crashing down around them as it inevitably does.

I understand and have not tried to "talk sense", at least that I am aware.
Since the last advice about giving space, I have not tried to initiate contact, with the exception of today, as there were some other pressing needs that had to be resolved almost immediately.
I did respond a couple days ago to her sending me a flurry of messages.

I take her response to my question as an admission that it is a new affair.
The only people who know about this are myself and my oldest child.
I am wondering now if I should do anything else about it?

Were her parents receptive to you? You might go back to them and reiterate your appeal for them to support your marriage if she hasn't already turned them against you, but wide exposure isn't going to have the same effect in this situation, unfortunately. People in general frown upon affairs, but the general public doesn't consider it an affair if the couple has separated before the relationship begins. The divorce is a "technicality" in their minds in situations such as that.

I'm sorry you're in this situation. If you're still up to it, continue with Plan A, but there's no shame in protecting yourself by going into Plan B. Switching to Plan B doesn't mean you've given up. It just means you're protecting your own mental and physical health both for your own future and for a potential future with her.. When her affair(s) end and her world comes crashing down on her, you can still attempt reconciliation.

So is there no benefit to telling our children, friends, the OM's family?
Or, as I really want to do, go confront this new OM?
From what I have learned he is also married, same as the first OM.

It seems the last advice given to me pretty much equates to a Plan B. If I continue this, it will be an unannounced Plan B, with no letter sent, and likely little concern on my WW's part.
It seems she is already doing this to me from the moment this second affair began.
Without my initiating contact, there will be very little opportunities to make any deposits. So it's not really a correct "Plan A" or "Plan B" as described, but a waiting in limbo.
Although, I guess that is what is recommended I should be doing.

You should definitely tell the OM's wife if he is married (I'm assuming you have undeniable proof that she will be able to confirm). And you can tell your children what she is doing. No sense in keeping secrets. But her friends are more likely to view you as crazy since she moved out long ago. There's nothing wrong with telling people. I'm just letting you know it's unlikely to have the desired effect. If anything it may bring more people out of the woodwork to tickle her ears if they view you as crazy. In North Carolina where they still have alienation of affection lawsuits, it is not considered actionable if the married couple was separated before the affair began. You and I both know that morally it's stil adultery, but society doesn't see it that way. The point of exposure is to get support for yourself and to have people confront your WW and encourage her to work on the marriage. You have to ask yourself at this point if your exposure targets will accomplish either of those things.

You are correct that Plan A is typically for WWs that remain at home. It is much more difficult when they leave. It's also easier in a sense (at least in my case) since they aren't there rubbing it in your face on a daily basis. Plan A is to continue as long as you feel up to it. I never gave my ex a formal Plan B letter, but I verbally communicated to her on multiple occasions that I wanted to create a happy marriage with her. I even waited for 6 months after our divorce papers were signed, but after that time I no longer wished to reconcile, so when I cut off communication with her it was for good. If you still desire reconciliation when you need to go to Plan B for your own health, you should send her the formal Plan B letter.

What I have in regard to him being married is public records stating so. But I can find no trace of him on FB. I did find many relatives. If any of them are his wife, I do not know.
I believe I would only find out by asking some of them, or knocking on his door.

As for "undeniable proof" what I have are 1000's of texts back and forth at all hours of the day and night. Not the content of the messages, but the fact they are being sent.
I also have my WW's admission that she is carrying on with another man and that it is the same person as the messages sent back and forth.

* If I were to go to the OM's house, it would get back to my WW almost instantly.
At the same time, knowing who he is and where he is, is having a strong pull on me to go there and confront him.

In regard to our friends, most all are aware of my WW's first affair and definitely do not approve. My WW has alienated herself from almost all of them and they indicate they have no desire to associate with her. However, if she were to show up at any particular event (and it has happened once already), they would have no trouble acting as if nothing is wrong.

Two questions...

1:
I can also now show several examples of my WW being at this OM's home, including times and dates. This also includes a later PM hour yesterday.

The list of 1000's of texts.
My WW's admission.
Examples of her being at his home.

Is this enough to move on what I am wanting to do?
Expose this to his family members... or show up at his home and reveal what is happening and/ or confront him directly.

I would also like to inform my MiL of this new OM as I am almost positive my MiL is being lied to about my WW's comings and goings.

Or am I to continue holding?
I am struggling hard with the idea of doing nothing but allowing this to continue.


Question 2:

Recently I spoke of my WW's purchase a plane ticket in an attempt to meet up with the first OM, while he was temporarily on this side of the globe. I spoke of the other BS then confronting her WH about this and his angry denial.
When I saw my WW a couple days ago, her mother had already spoken to her about it and the fact that I told her mother about the purchase. My WW tried to tell me it was a trap for me to discover if I was watching her. She claimed the fact that she did not actually go on the flight was the proof that it was a fake and a trap.
I know full well it was a ridiculous lie as it contradicted her claim that she was no longer in contact with the first OM. It also makes no sense that she actually purchased and paid for the ticket. She also would have had no idea that I would speak with her mother and one of our children about it.
I do fully believe she did not go because of my actions and the fact that I, the OM's BS, and her own mother knew about it.

I do however believe she made this same claim of a "trap" to her mother and painted me as crazy. I have also learned that my WW researched transferring the date of the ticket to early next month. I then asked the OM's BS if she knew of any plan of her WH to return to this side of the planet during that same time. The other BS said her WH did in fact mention coming back during that time to "house sit for a friend".

Should I again return to my MiL's and tell her this is happening? It will be the third time going there in as many weeks.

If your MiL is opposed to your wife's pursuit of other men, then you should tell her about the new OM. Blood is thicker than water, though. Eventually your MiL will likely take her daughter's side and cut off contact with you. You're in the best position to know where you stand. Is your evidence enough to convince her? The volume of texts isn't proof, and your WW will simply deny the confession. The question will arise how you know she was at the new OM's house, and then you may be painted as an irrational stalker.

If you think that the Harley's misunderstood your situation, I encourage you to write them again and provide a very brief summary of the events up to the present. Then ask your question again.

New question.

Is it in the best interest to inform the other BS, from overseas, about this current affair? I am guessing it is not entirely unique to be in such a situation.
I am believing that it will have an effect if this first OM learned through his BS that my WW is in another affair, apart from him. But, it may also cause his BS to relax on trying to eliminate the contact that is still happening.

I don't think it would hurt. Hopefully it would cause some arguments between your WW and the OM. From what I've read the other BS couldn't be any less vigilant, so that's probably not a concern.

Thank you. I am now waiting for the appropriate time zone, from that part of the globe, to arrive and inform the other BS.

My next question, which I am hoping to gather advice, is about confronting this new OM. I have a strong desire to and am on the verge of going there, this day.
Is it recommended that I confront him?
If so, is there a suggestion on what to say?

I know that I would like to get angry, explain who I am and demand he stop. Ask about his own marital status, that he will be called into court if necessary... ect.
But I am unsure if this is the right thing to do.
(It will get back to my WW almost immediately)

I'm still uneasy about this. Dr Harley told me I needed enough proof to convince a jury before I exposed the affair. I'm not sure you have that. Could your WW be trying to set you up? I'll have to defer to the other more experienced posters on this one.

Is there a divorce in process? If not, why hasn't your WW filed? Is she content to be divorced in her mind but not on paper?

I am uneasy about it as well. But am very much ready to go to his residence.
It is likely not a set up. She does not realize I know where he is located. But I simply open my phone and it shows that.. Almost.. every other day she is there. Always in the morning hours, after dropping the kids off at school, or in the evening hours. Likely sneaking out of her mom's or giving a false excuse to leave at night. It is strange because, more often than not, it seems she only stops for a few minutes and then immediately travels the nearly 45 minutes back to her mothers.

There is no divorce in process.
Why she has not taken any steps to do so is confusing.
Over the course of this she has stated a few times that "it will happen in a couple months"... but has never taken a step to do so, nor do I see it happening.
I was/am holding on to the hope that it means there is a positive possibility in the future.

It could at the same time be as you say, she is content to be divorced in her mind but not on paper.
She left me with all the bills in life, including the mortgage. Took half our tax return and bought a new car, lives at her mothers million dollar house for free, snuck our children there without agreement, has no expenses, an overseas man still pining for her and now likely a local boyfriend (One married. The other almost certainly so).

I can only speculate, but it could be she thinks... "why hassle with a divorce. I have everything I want... and do not have to admit my infidelity" . Just pretending to be a single mother... with none of the expense.
Finding someone sleazy enough not to care about cheating with a married woman or on their own spouse.
It is only one speculation, but plausible.

I still hope and pray I am wrong with that possibility.

Can you hire a PI?

I don't think I can afford such a thing and still maintain life's expenses.
I do already have the ability to see where she is 24 hours a day, just through my phone.

* She spent 20 mins at the OM's house again this morning.
Each time I see this, I say to myself... "I am going to her mothers and inform her. I am going to this OM's house... both right now!"
I then pace for a few minutes and sit back down. I am certain very soon, within a few days if not before (today perhaps), I am doing it.
Knowing it continues, and doing nothing, is getting to be unbearable.

I have this OM's name, phone number, email address, home address.
I am also pretty sure I know where he works (a retail store).

Correction:
After checking again, she has not been to this OM's home "almost every other day"... but in fact (if it makes a difference) once or twice a day, every single day, for the past two weeks.
Including a full Saturday picking him up and going to a banquet hall for the entire day.

Can you follow her without being detected or have a Friend?

It be best if you can find the funds for a PI. Can you ask your parents for help?

I have been living at my parents for a few months now.
I could no longer handle being in our home alone.
They will not be able to help with such a thing.
In fact, my father gives me the "Be a man and just walk away" speech on nearly a daily basis. "Your kids don't want to be with you anymore. Your wife is a cheater"... "Just start a new life alone".

I would be able to follow her without being detected.
But what is my goal in doing so?
I know exactly where she is each day in real time.
Her mothers, work, our children's school (morning and afternoon) and now a stop at this OM's house once or twice a day.

That's it. Every day the same thing.

Something else I have thought of before informing the other BS (from overseas) about this new affair...

The other BS has very recently informed me that her WH is stating he is unsure if he wants to remain married. She has given him a deadline of one month to decide.

If her WH is informed of my WW's new affair, is there not a possibility of a reverse effect and he will actually become more bold in his efforts to pursue my WW, in the belief that I am no longer a concern?
I will in fact be a concern, but in his messed up thinking, it might cause him to pursue her even harder(?)

Should I still go through with informing her?

You following her would be that you catch her at this new OM's house and then you could expose the affair to OM's BW. You need to get more evidence of the affair so you can expose this new OM.

I am about at my breaking point on confronting this OM.

Today, she again went to this OM's house, after dropping our children off at school this morning. It is happening every day. WW works 2nd shift and has frequently been going there a second time after work, in the 9 to 11 PM hours. Each visit, spending about 20-30 minutes there.
Due to my complete trust in her I was completely unaware of her first affair, happening right under my nose, for three years and it caused the situation I/ we are now in. This time I have the ability to try and stop this in its early stage.

It gets worse...

Today was pretty devastating.
This afternoon, during the lunch hour, I was at home to pick up mail, as I had the day off work. I glanced at my phone and saw that only a short while before she was again at this OM's house. It showed that at that very minute she was at a fast food place only a couple minutes away.

I drove there.
I saw them.

I saw them coming out of the place, smiling/ laughing, then getting in her car and driving away.
They did not see me.

I know what is happening. She has admitted to what is happening.
I saw her infidelity with my own eyes for the first time today.
I almost made myself known and confronted them both, right then and there.

Because this OM is located only 10 minutes from home, after giving it a while, I then drove to his house (her car was not there). I got as far as the driveway and turned around. I did not know what to do.

I am feeling very helpless, confused, angry and scared right now.
I don't know if I should tell her I saw them.
I don't know if I should go to the OM's house tomorrow.
I would really appreciate some advice on my next step.

If I were to want to, I can likely easily catch them together.
I can also easily return and confront this OM alone.
Confronting him is what I really want to do... like today or tomorrow.

Public records show he is married.
I am not 100% sure this is true.
It could be that he is separated, divorced, or even that the record is incorrect.
I have leads on several of his possible family members, and a couple have accepted my FB friend request.

Go to the OM house when you know he will not be home then expose the affair to the OMW.

Knowing if or when he might be home is pretty much impossible. I would just be taking my chances.
What if it turns out he is not in fact married?
Is there anything else I can/ should do?

Confronting him directly, catching them together or telling my WW that I have seen them is not advisable?
What about mentioning him by name to her? Or, that I know where he lives?

I can very likely catch her at the OM's house.
If I do, do I take any action, such as snapping a photo or knocking on the door?

I decided today would be the day as I had already found out as much information as I was going to find.

I waited until 9:30am, when most people are already at work. (My WW was there again about 45min earlier) Saw a different car in the drive, and knew it was not the OM's.
(The OM's car is on cinder blocks in the yard)
* The combined experience of the day now has me with the impression the OM is unemployed.
I knocked on the door, expecting a woman to answer. It was not his wife that answered. It was his father. I then had to deal with a situation I did not expect, but was very confident. I asked the father if (OM's name) lived there. His father instantly disappeared saying "I'll get him".

After OM arrived at the door, I asked him if he was (OM's name). He tried to deny whom he was several times, I repeated myself until he admitted who he was. I told him I am (WW's name) husband. He said "OH! Okay". I asked if he wanted to explain anything to me and he said "No", and quickly shut the door and ran back inside to hide.
I knocked again and his father returned to the door, shut it and stepped outside.
I calmly and rationally spoke with his father for several minutes. Explained the situation and that his son was having an affair with my wife.
* His son remained hiding in the background of the house, peaking through the window.
First thing I said to his father is "I guess your son is not man enough to come outside, so I'll be talking with you instead."

Final result... His father admitted his son and my WW have been messing around. He said my WW had told them her and I were divorced.
* Although that is not the impression I got from his son.
I believe if his son did not know my WW was married, he would have explained himself... not run and hide.
I told the OM's father the truth about us being married, explained how long it has been, that we have children. That what his son has been doing needed to stop. He needed to stop seeing her. He needed to stop talking to her.
According to the OM's father, his son is not in fact married (although I don't know if he was at one time).
Among several other things said... I asked if that is the way his son wants to lead his life... cheating with a married woman. (his fathers reply was "I don't know")

His father said, more than once, he would talk with his son and finally, when the conversation was finished, he wished me a good day. (I simply said "alright")

About an hour later I discovered my WW started searching Google for Divorce attorneys and how to request an OOP. (Although I am still pretty sure her searching will start and end there) I full expected my phone to be shut off in retaliation, but it has not.
That is where it is now. I have additional confirmation from the OM's father along with his son's cowardice. I have not started any additional exposure.

Sounds like you hit the mark. OM's tend to be cowards. Funny that he's living with his dad. He probably cheated on his wife and she divorced him or kicked him out of the house. You've got a really tough situation, ptsd. I'm sorry you're going through this.

Good job on the start of exposure. Now is not the time to drop the ball so get a complete exposure done by tomorrow.

I am not sure what effect it has had.

Not really a factor, but I am back to believing he is employed, and at the retail store I originally thought. Likely a part time, later shift.

Just a while ago, my WW drove to that same store (almost certainly to pick him up), then drove to his house, and just now, spent 45 mins at the OM's house, before currently driving back to her mothers.

-----

* Question on the remaining exposure...
Of the 38 FB friend requests sent out, only 3 or 4 accepted.
I found these persons by first finding someone I know is connected with OM. Gathering the "friends" with the same last name as OM. Then went to each of these friends and again pulled those with the same last name. Etcetera... until it grew to 38.

Do I send a message to all 38? Or just those whom accepted?
The messages can be sent to all, but those whom have not accepted will likely not see the message for some time. Do I first attempt to make 100% sure those I send the message to are in fact related? Or do I open with an apology that if they are not related to please disregard the message?

(Some are likely spouses of male relatives)

Might as well do all 38.

would someone please provide me a critique on this message?

...

Hello,

My name is (ptsd) and I very unfortunately have some tragic information to share with you.
I am very sorry to have to bring such news.
It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his family should be aware that (OM) is having an affair with my Wife, (WW name).

Your family member (OM) and my wife (WW) have been having an affair for over a month, if not longer, according to the evidence, and it continues this very day.

We have been married for over 21 years and have three children.

I found about all of this just over a week ago and discovered the evidence.
They do not hide their tracks very well.

When confronting my wife, and telling her I knew what was happening, she confessed to it.
when speaking with (OM's) father he also confirmed this is in fact happening.
(OM) was too afraid to speak with me directly.

As I am sure you agree, this can not be allowed to continue.
Their entire communication must end imidiatly and forever.

I am trying to find those have influence on him to end this affair with my wife. Such as parents, siblings and relatives.
I would ask that you use your influence with (OM) to persuade him to leave my wife alone.

I must admit, this is one of the hardest letters I have ever written.
But, I cannot fathom being an enabler by keeping it a secret.
I must do all I can save our marriage and our family and very much feel those with the most influence on him have a right to know what has been happening.

God bless you.

I made some small alterations and went with it.

I thought it would be easier because I have already been through this. It was not. Still scary and almost stopped a couple times.
I did make it through. I removed a couple from the list after discovering their age (19 to 30 years old).
Are those appropriate ages to expose to the OM's family members?

Yes, you should absolutely have exposed to 19-30 year olds.

The letter is good. I'd send it to the 19-30 year olds as well.

Five of the OM's family have read the message so far.
One immediately unfriended me.

One other sent this in return:
" Nothing I can do for you I have no influence over (OM). And as for your wife I don't know her at all good luck "

Is there a message I should send back?

I know my situation is very bad.
I was still discouraged today by the fact that confronting the OM and his father seems to have no effect on it's own.
WW has sent me no expressions of anger, and did the same thing as she has for over two weeks.
Dropped our children off at school and drove straight to OM's house, and like before, stayed for 20 mins.

I am struggling hard on sending/ not sending her a message and/or trying to call. Something about how I love her, am trying to show her changes in myself, and the affair needs to end.
Is this a good or bad idea?

I have not had the opportunity to inform my MiL yet.
My WW is in her third and last day of her weekly scheduled days off work.
I am guessing I should not inform my MiL with my WW present?

I am also contemplating confronting this OM again at his workplace (big box store) or even asking the manager for a minute to talk about ethics, letting the manager know what is happening.
I am wondering if this is something I could/ should do?

I wouldn't send anything back in response. There's no point. If they're not willing to help, they're not willing to help. At least his family now knows what a scumbag he is.

Be careful about a second confrontation with OM. Repeated unwanted contact of this nature could possibly be construed as harassment in some jurisdictions and may result in a restraining order.

Okay, as of right now I will hold off on going to the OM's workplace.

What is very hard to do is not attempting to contact my wife.
About 10 days ago I sent the very lovely letter I spoke of earlier. I also informed her of it being sent, last time I spoke to her in person. I also sent the follow up, a couple days later, explaining how she is killing me, and invited her to this site.
She has not visited.

The account I sent it to was her one time "primary" email. For quite a while she has let that account turn into a garbage/ spam account and has not yet logged in after it was sent.
I am very close to sending the small text I mentioned just above, and/ or resending my letters to one of her other accounts, possibly the account created specifically to contact the first OM.

I can't speak to contacting your wife. Maybe one of the more experienced posters can talk about that. Dr. Harley had advised me to just be nice when my ex reached out to me, but you may be able to make some love bank deposits if you send her a message. I don't know.

Have you contacted Dr. Harley again about the new developments with the new OM? I think you need to write him again.

Radio Clip of PTSD's Email

Yeah, that is the clip I spoke about in post #2885897.
Where my situation, questions and actions were meshed and jumbled together, leading to some confusion.

PTSD. Over the last few weeks, I've felt more and more uneasy reading your posts. In my opinion (and it sounds like Dr. Harley's opinion as well based on the clip), it's time to pull back.

It's time to focus on yourself and how to repair your own life and the relationship with your children. Your wife no longer lives with you and shows no signs of wanting to repair this. When do you draw the line? For your own mental and emotional health, it seems the time has come for Plan B.

I might be in the minority here but I just don't see your recent efforts doing much to change what's happening. Re-listen to the clip. Stop communication, focus on healing yourself and your life and let this woman go off and figure out her lack of morals on her own.

I'm so sorry. I know this hurts and you desperately want to believe you can change the outcome. I believe the best chance you have of affecting the outcome at this point is to go dark.

I agree. I think it's time for Plan B.

It will be the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
It won't be a proper Plan B, according to the program.
There won't be a PBL, an intermediary (really no purpose for one)or any of the things I would express under a Plan B. I also envision myself slipping from time to time, sending a small message or perhaps trying to call.
It will also be hard not to finally express how terrible she has become, how upset/ angry I have been or that she has become a pathological liar and narcissist. I am no doctor, but over time, she has developed every sign I have learned about NPD.

I never wanted to give the impression I have not been trying to stop the withdrawal of my children. I haven't spoke of my efforts in that regard as I believe this forum is not intended for that. Like with this entire situation, I have not been given an explanation as to why they suddenly stopped communication, once they were taken.
They were happy to have been with me the entire time and even took it upon themselves to initiate talking to me about "moving on" together, without mom. Once she (I use the word stole) them, they stopped communicating with me. I can only assume my wife is poisoning them on a regular basis, encouraging them to ignore me. I try to talk with them at least once a day. They just don't respond.

I will be seeing my children today at a family member's wedding.
I plan to sit down with them, if they will listen, and talk about returning home. Their schools and friends are all within blocks of home.
I plan to talk about the possibility of us living anywhere they feel comfortable. I won't mention the following to them... but myself returning home is going to be near impossible (unless that is what they want). My WW works 1 mile West of home, and this new OM lives 1 mile South. Living there, while knowing she is that close by, or that this is happening just down the street, is almost unfathomable.


While I absorb and sort all of this, I have a couple questions, which still directly relate to the program...

When I do talk to my children today, I am wondering if I should briefly and gently inform them of this new affair? Or strictly focus on us, and not tell them?
I have also not had a chance to inform my MiL, and would not be able to do so for at least another week as my WW will be off work every day, until then.
Should I continue with the plan to inform my MiL?

Do you have scheduled visits with your children? What does your lawyer say about that? Surely you should have regular scheduled visits? How old are your children?

And yes if you're willing to follow a plan then you can follow Plan B.

I would focus on re-building with the kids. Your wife's affair is a poison that has affected all of you. Perhaps they were urging you to move on earlier because they thought it would be healthier for you in the long run and as you stayed and fought and they saw the wear and tear on you, they pulled away. Just a thought.

Your wife definitely gave them the spin about her and her need for freedom. This will be one of the benefits of you doing a proper plan B. You can rebuild with them and they will witness you taking care of yourself ad putting the focus back on your own interests and your relationship with them.

I would not talk to them anymore about your WW. I would just focus on getting to know them again and where they're at now in their lives. At some point, maybe you can get a different living space as well so that you're not haunted by the past.

You can do a proper plan B and you need to. You need to close the door on your WW. Stop looking at what she's doing, go no contact. Write in a journal if you need to, to get the angry feelings out. This is dragging you down more than you realize and you will start to feel much better once you close the door.

No scheduled visits. I have barely seen or talked with them in these 12 weeks.
I have only had one single consultation with a lawyer. That was over 3 months ago. During that one office visit, I spoke heavily of my belief that my WW might soon do exactly what she did a couple/few weeks later.
I mentioned here that I was informed if it does happen, I would have 3 choices. Either go cause a big scene at her mothers, file for custody, or allow them to stay (for what I had thought would be temporary). I had/ have been going with choice number 3, as the first two would cause further damage to our marriage and our family. I had previously expressed the children need to be back home by the start of school, and my WW had agreed, hence my belief it would be temporary. That has not happened.

What I had not anticipated was the immediate withdrawal and the complete lack of effort on my WW's part to ensure they talk with me or come back home, considering I was accommodating and gentle when she finally started asking to see them on certain days, while they were still at home. And now she is in fact poisoning them.
The children are 13 and 16.

This is true, and I didn't know to what extent until yesterday.
I did not need to bring up the new affair. The kids already knew. During a conversation with them (not about their mother, but about us), they said to me... "How long are you going to keep stalking?"
I knew instantly they were repeating words straight from my WW as this is the type of OOP she had looked up (and has since stopped). I asked what they meant by that and the reply was... "You went to (OM's name) house". So they already knew his name, who he is, and were told that confronting him equals stalking.
I explained that doing that is not stalking, that it is wrong for parents to have other boyfriends and girlfriends, and that I am sure they are old enough to understand this. They literally told me "It is not wrong (to have other boyfriends) because you are getting divorced".
I asked how they knew this person and was told "It doesn't matter to you!" * Another phrase that has been repeated by my WW. They told me "She has already talked to a lawyer". Again, something repeated by my WW several times through all of this, but almost certainly has not happened.

To compound matters, my oldest child told me just an hour or so before this, I was going to be a grandfather. Very happy for her, was super supportive, and spoke with her in detail about it. But at the same time, it is something I and my wife had spoken about and anticipated the day, for years. Now I don't even know if I can or should talk with her about it.

The issues don't stop.
For the last couple years we had been working with the bank to restructure the mortgage to a lower monthly payment.
We were finally approved only a short while after the first discovery.
The trial period is now over and the final paperwork arrived. It needs to be signed by both of us in front of a notary, and sent back immediately. This will lock in the restructure.
This means that tomorrow I have no choice but to go to my MiL's, try and convince my wife to come with me to the notary, and sign the papers. I am afraid she will refuse and the payment will rise again to a price that I can not afford alone.

Put the house on the market. Move to a nice apartment you can easily afford. Work on yourself and getting your life put back together as an individual and as a father in Plan B.

Time to go into a dark Plan B PTSD.

You are making no progress with your W and all that is happening is you are drifting further away from your kids. You say you won't be able to do a proper Plan B. You can if you choose to. Anything less than a proper Plan B is just going to make things hard for you and deflect you from moving on and getting back what you had with your kids.

Get a lawyer and have a custody hearing. You should get equal time seeing your kids. That will allow you to rebuild your R with them.

You need to let the lawyer fight for custody. Your WW is not showing signs of ending her affairs and coming back home.

Every day that you allow WW to keep the kids you weaken your chances in court to get them back.

Tell your lawyer that your WW is poisoning your kids against you and that is illegal and that you want him to get you custody.

You are in a war for your family. You can not win wars by being nice.

Here is my dilemma for the day.

The final restructure papers for the house need to be overnighted back to the mortgage company, immediately.

Her and I fought for this for years and it is literally the difference of keeping the house, and with an amount I can afford alone,... or having foreclosure proceedings start in short order.
They need to be signed by both of us, in front of a notary.
I am going to ask the bank for a little more time, but considering the struggle we went through for years just to have them accept a restructure, I very much doubt they will agree.
If they refuse to give me more time, I have to go to my MiL's... today... and talk with my wife about going to a notary and signing them.
Because I am the only name on the mortgage, the paper clearly states, under my wife's signature line, that she is exempt from occurring any debt in regard to the house (This is something I did not want to inform her of, but I have no other choice), but that she must sign to acknowledge the final agreement.

This has to be done. There is no other way around it.
I will also have to show up unannounced.

I am going to ask my mother to come with (she probably will not want to) for support. Even if I know she is only in the driveway waiting. I will likely then return to the lawyers office to arrange another meeting to describe the latest circumstances.

If I am to go to my MiL's today, is there any advice on what to talk with my WW about, or how to say it? If I must go, I would like to take the opportunity to make deposits and/or signify anything that will help the situation... if possible.

(I would also like to inform my MiL about this new affair, but am unsure how to do that with my WW present. If I do inform my MiL, it will likely take yet another unannounced visit, several days from now)

* I have some other questions related to my next actions, but will hold for now.

I would not do any of these things until I had written to Dr Harley and asked him.

I listened to your radio clip and he basically told you that you were coming off as a stalker and that you needed to back off, let the A die a natural death, focus on yourself, etc.

However since that radio call you have continued to follow and contact your W and now you're talking bout going to see her again and do affair-busting things. That's not what Dr Harley said to do.

Please write to Dr Harley and don't do anything yet.

I read your earlier post and listened to the call. Respectfully, I don't think the discrepancies you mentioned were anywhere near serious enough to invalidate their take on the situation. I think they, and we, can understand the dynamic.

It is very unfortunate, but you are only damaging your cause in trying to maintain any sort of contact with your WW.

Plan B. As for details that come up, like the house, deal with it as you would were you on another continent. No more in-persons on anything. Just business.

^^^^This!!!

Please write Dr. Harley again like we've been suggesting.

The mortgage company agreed to a few more days, so I have not done any of the above yet.
I did write to Dr. Harley again, yesterday.

If anyone has a suggestion as to how to have the papers signed, without seeing or talking with my WW, I would be happy to listen.
I am unsure how this will be possible, considering we both have to sign in ink (no faxes or copies), in front of a notary, and have the papers overnighted to the mortgage company, within the next 4 days.
My parents are strongly encouraging me to inform my wife this needs to be done...like today. These papers are the very last step in the process and are simply a technicality to have us confirm we know the mortgage will be cut in half. If they are not sent back, the cost goes right back up again and I will be retroactively charged the 1000's of dollars from the trial period.

About going silent...

What I know right now:
The periods of time that were signifying things were possibly getting better (watching movies together, going out to lunch, talking together in person, going shopping... etc.) were the direct result of my exposing the first affair, then maintaining communication with her. Asking her to do things, letting her know what I needed, asking what she needed, even playful teasing was showing some promise.
I know 100% she reads the messages that have been sent during this entire time.

What is confusing is that if she really wanted to not communicate or hear from me, she is listed as the primary on the family phone plan. With a single mouse click she could have my phone shut off. She could also easily change her number, but has done neither of these.
Weeks ago she said I needed to give her money for the phone bill. As I have several times before, I said I would love to help with that or any of the things the kids might need... if she would only let me know. I asked how much she needed for the bill but she would not say, so that has not happened.
Still the phone is on.
(It's not actually an expense for her. It goes on her mothers credit card)
Things went downhill when the plane ticket was discovered.
Off the cliff, when the new affair started.
I did the same thing as the first time and exposed the OM, but if I don't do the second part, I will be abandoning the things that were possibly working.
I know that IF and whatever I send will be read.
I do know how to make any communication on my part gentle, kind and positive... even if I receive an abusive comment or am told a lie.

In regard to the children. I now know to treat that as an entirely different situation. I will no longer mention anything about their mom, coming home, family, friends, school, or that I miss them. They are being told that if I do, it means I am doing bad things. So I will no longer be doing that. I have however calmly defended myself when the kids accuse me of falsehoods, they have been told by their mom.

Like I mentioned, I have done none of the above, but my parents are driving home the fact that if this doesn't happen, the house is gone. They are also encouraging me to again offer money to help with the children and phone related expenses.

You haven't made the arrangements that you need to do Plan B yet, so you are not going to Plan B today, are you?

If you intend to stay in the house, rather than sell it and get a cheaper place as someone else suggested (a very good idea), then ask your wife today to sign the papers as soon as you can get an appointment with a notary.

I don't understand what is so difficult.

I don't really understand this post. I am not clear what you are asking.

If you don't want to go to Plan B nobody can make you do so. We can only continue to advise you that your behaviour towards your wife has long had overtones of stalking her, and that in our opinion you need to stop it. We listened to your latest radio show, and we think that is what Dr Harley is telling you.

Give the papers to a notary and go separately to have them signed. It can even be on the same day. Have your parents communicate this to her.

Yes. Call a local mortgage refi company and ask who they use for mobile signings. Pay that notary (who would be familiar with loan paperwork) to go to her house.

Modifying a mortgage might buy some time to decide whether to stay or sell. However, I wouldn't agree to recasting a mortgage balance that is higher than the home values. You should get advice from a local loan/mortgage broker also in regards to the mortgage.

Don't do anything that would make the property more difficult to sell. Dr. H might suggest that you move.

But he might also suggest you stay put in case your wife has a change of heart.

What does your attorney say?

I took the chance yesterday and asked her if she would sign.
I reminded her it was the final step in what we fought hard to achieve.
She said yes and stated a time to meet.
It's in about an hour.
I'm going to be as calm, positive, flattering and outwardly confident as I have this whole time. I will gauge her willingness to talk, and if given the opportunity, express that I believe it would help us both if we scheduled times to talk with each other.

In regard to the house, the attorney I spoke with advised not putting another dime into making any needed repairs. He looked on it as although I am the only name on the mortgage and she is not subject to incurring any debt, it is still considered marital property, and if she were to research it, would discover she can try and take half, or even have me removed.
I on the other hand am leaning toward sprucing it up and making it an inviting place for my family to return to. If I were to sell it or not, this restructure needed to happen. Foreclosure processes move a lot swifter than sales.

During that day, she signed the papers, mentioned opening an account on her health insurance for me (not sure what she meant by that as I am already on it), said she would think about communicating more. But, she said all this in angry tones, rejected light compliments, and left very little time to talk.
Just before leaving the notary, she claimed she only signed to force a sale of the house, and take half.
She said I will be getting divorce papers through email, and that she already signed.

I had previously found additional family members of this new OM, but have done nothing with them. I did not inform my MiL (I am guessing she already knows). I stopped caring what my WW was doing or where she was going.

Since that day I have only sent a couple messages (in a single day) about wanting to start seeing the kids, picking them up from school on her work days. That it would be easier on her to not have to leave work and bring the kids back to hang out at her service station until late at night and my desire to return to the schedule we previously agreed upon (before she took them).

She had previously claimed "the kids need their father in their lives", and I reminded her of this. She did not object to my idea. I then started communicating to the kids about this and was met with angry refusal by them.
Since their mom did not come right out and agree, my children called me a liar and my middle child blocked me on FB.
I asked my wife what was happening and she said "they don't want to go and I cant force them". I explained all she had to do was let them know their dad would be picking them up on her workdays... she did not answer this.

I still send the kids goodnight messages and occasional things I know they are interested in, along with ideas on activities we might do together. I get no response.

A few days ago the mortgage company informed me of a technicality that requires us to go through the very same process again and overnighted the very same papers to be signed once more. I sent a message to my wife informing her of this, and that we needed to do it again. She agreed and I arranged for that to happen today.

My plan was that after today's meeting, I would write a PBL and go dark. But yesterday the email arrived with copies of the divorce papers. I never thought it would actually happen. They have been filed, but came with a letter that no court date has been set and I have 10 days to agree to the terms, or it will proceed.

She does not know I have seen them.
Very shortly after, I had to push back today's meeting by an hour and informed her of this, asking if we could change the time. She said "yes". I said Okay and wished her a great day at work. I added that I would love it if we could arrange a little time afterward (I figured what do I have to loose). We are still meeting today at the bank/ notary.

Other than needing to find a lawyer, is there anything else I can or should do? I had planned to apologize for anything I might have done to have her feel alone and unloved, ***Edit***
* And then go to Plan B.

But,as of yesterday, I don't know what to do or say today... if anything.
Should I still attempt to try and take this opportunity to do this? Is there a suggestion on what I should do or say?

I do not plan on saying anything about the email, and if asked, planned to say I do not know what she is talking about.
That if true, there is no need to do it and express my feelings that she should call it off.

Thanks everyone.

I think you should do the PBL. You will be surprised how liberating it is. Get a lawyer and insist on 50/50 custody. Fight for your kids. I don't know what resources are available, but I would look into getting an advocate for the children to make sure your WW is not poisoning them against you (which she obviously is).

Thanks. I figure that is the basic first thing I should do. And of course the kids come first.
The trouble is she filed under "Irreconcilable Differences" with the added note of "All attempts at healing the marriage have failed". Of course, no mention of affairs and adultery and the falsehood that she tried in any way.

The paper states she is asking for everything possible.
Primary custody, child support, spousal support, half of all my property, half of the house (in my name) , wants all her property exempt from division (even if marital property or if I paid for it), and me to pay her lawyer fees.

I am told if I try to fight any of this or introduce affairs/ adultery into it, even if I contest the reasoning or try to get the truth out that I am the one whom has done all the fighting for the marriage, it will cost 10's of thousands of dollars I do not have.
She has a low paying job, so I can only assume her mother paid the 5 thousand to retain a lawyer.

Is there nothing else I can do or say... today when I see her?
(Perhaps all I can do is what I mentioned in my last post?)

I want to do whatever I can to stop this. I know the real woman I have loved for a quarter century is in there somewhere.

PTSD with you saying the above, it seems that she is trying to get you to agree to an uncontested divorce. The MB plan has always been to not agree to a divorce. So, following the MB guidelines you would contest it and NOT go along with the terms. IF she tries to discuss it with you, make it known you will contest the divorce and her lawyer needs to speak with your lawyer about it.

It certainly sounds like she is trying to take you for absolutely everything you got. She isn't exactly being generous to you in any way. So, what do you have to lose at this point? What concessions is she offering you for your silence on the affair? Because, I see NONE in what you said. I think she is trying to scare you into not fighting the divorce by claiming it will cost too much to fight.

Stand your ground and don't just roll over and take what she is throwing your way!

I really, really want to.
But, I'm not even sure I can retain a lawyer, at a cost of 5 thousand.
Even less, added costs of contesting/ fighting.
I have a meeting with one tomorrow.

* She is not the one telling me the costs. The one time I met with an attorney, and another phone consultation I had with another, a couple days ago, are those who told me this.

* I also live in a "no fault" state and one which is notoriously bad concerning fathers rights. (IL)

Where there is a will, there is a way! Can't you take out a Home Equity Line of Credit? Tap into a retirement account? Downsize your car? Sell valuable items you don't absolutely need? Put the retainer on a credit card? Most lawyers will also work out a payment plan with you.

You mentioned that WW had to borrow for HER retainer. So, it sounds like she doesn't have much money to throw into a legal fight either. Once it dawns on her that she will be paying out of pocket to keep the fight going with money SHE doesn't have, she may rethink things. This is what happened in my situation and we ended up putting the divorce on hold. Not saying this will happen to you. But I can only speak for what happened in my situation - lawyering up and making it clear I would NOT go along with or aid a divorce in any way. I think this clears the fog of the WW expecting you to just take what you are given and fade away into oblivion and out of her life.

I will ask about these things tomorrow during my office consultation.

I am meeting WW in an hour. Not sure what I will say.

Yes, consult with a lawyer and I am sure you will feel much better about your situation. Just remain positive with the WW with your interaction.

I don't want to go off of the MB topics, but sadly almost ALL states are "no fault" states for divorce. This doesn't really benefit the woman in any way. You really want to be concentrating on whether you live in an "equitable distribution" or "Communal property" state. But I am sure your lawyer will go over this with you.

Do not agree to her terms. Do not tell her you are agreeing to those terms. Do not negotiate with her. The time for that is over. Now she has a lawyer, so you need to let your lawyer handle it.

Your response to her petition can include her affair and how she is keeping the children from you ("the kids don't want to go" is not an excuse). It will not have any weight in the decision, but it may be something you want to show your children when they are older. My mother tried to poison me against my father in much the same way. It took years of deprogramming for him to reach me and my brother and prove that she was the one that was lying.

Online resources show that Illinois does allow fault divorce. You need to see an attorney. The money spent now will be worth cost long term.

If she asks about the divorce, tell her you only want to discuss saving the marriage, the lawyers can handle the rest. You also need to document each interaction regarding the children.

Apples is right. Adultery will affect alimony in IL. You definitely need to consult your lawyer. Keep a notebook and document interaction regarding the children as Apples noted.

I discovered IL allowing a fault divorce was an old law that was eliminated at the beginning of the year. All divorces are now "no fault" no matter the circumstance. Also eliminated, at the same time, was the statutory requirement that couples be separated for two years, before filing. Now one side only has to loosely show they have been separated for 6 months.
I have also discovered adultery/ affairs will have no bearing. The (undeniable) evidence and her admissions will not even be a factor.

The two questions I am struggling with now...
After the advice given that I cease efforts to break up her new affair, I stopped sending messages, with the exception of the couple about the house and the children. I stopped checking her location. I stopped exposing to the members of OM's family. I drafted a PBL and prepared myself to go dark.

The notification of the beginning of divorce proceedings beat my beginning Plan B by a day and a half. If I were to go through with the Plan B, would that not send the message that I am accepting all this and actually help facilitate the proceedings? I am struggling with the desire to ramp it back up and "fight" to counteract the situation. Not mentioning a word about this (my WW does not yet know I have read the petition), but suggesting to WW a cool down, and asking her to sit and talk. Probably with the suggestion of focusing on the children.

* My family is suggesting that what ever communications I send be about facilitating a quick divorce, suggesting an arbitrator, and saving (us both) money (which is not what I want to do).

My other question is... Should I notify the first OM's BS about this? Other BS gave her WH a deadline, by the end of this month, to decide if he wanted to stay married. As with other circumstances in all of this, the timing seems suspicious.
Possibly suggesting to other BS she once again demand if he has been in contact with my WW.

Perhaps not mentioning this circumstance directly, but informing the other BS to keep a close eye on her WH. It is possible my WW has already told him, but I'd rather not tell the other BS exactly what is happening, in the event her WH does not know already and it possibly getting back to him, through his BS.

You can still mention these things in your response to the petition.

I would personally encourage you to stick to your plan to transition to Plan B. Don't agree to your WW's terms in the divorce. Let your lawyer handle it. Get what is fair, and get as much custody of your children as you can.

Only you can ultimately make the decision of your course of action, but I think you've fought the good fight. Go to Plan B and wait for your WW to come around. There is nothing that says you can't get remarried to her in the future if she wakes up to the mess she's made of things.

For now, take care of yourself and your children. I'm sure you've felt better since you stopped checking her location and trying to find more people to expose the affair to. From where I sit, you've done what you can, and it's time to start making plans to move on without her (that doesn't mean you can't leave the door open for a possible future reconciliation).

I would like to gather opinions with my latest question.

I have this OM's email address.
I have an ever growing desire to inform this OM that he is noting special. That he is not the only person she is having an affair with. That if he is still lowlife enough to be seeing or communicating with my WW, to inform him of this first OM's name.
That the only thing he is going to gain is the knowledge of his role in destroying a family.

Is this a course I can take, in relation to the steps I should be/ am taking?

Sounds good to me. If your WW has been telling OM2 that he is the only one she would ever cheat with telling OM2 that WW is cheating on him with OM1 would definitely piss OM2 off and drop WW.

Though OM2 may not care and is just using your WW for sex. Then again knowing that she is doing OM1 may scare him off because of the increased chance of him get a STD from OM1 through your WW.

You need to give up the stalker-ish behaviour and go to Plan B as Dr Harley advised.

Hello,

I am not sure if anyone is still interested in my struggle, but I thought I might give an update.

I never did send the message I spoke about just above.
Although I did explain earlier that I confronted the OM2 in person. From what I understand that affair ended quickly afterward. My children stopped mentioning his name, and told me shortly afterward that she no longer speaks to him and I have been learning my WW has only been driving to and from work ever since, with no missing time or side trips.

I did try communicating with her several times, a short text here and another there. Always gentle, always speaking of my desire to learn what she felt our troubles were, all the changes I have taken upon myself, and my confidence and desire that we can turn this around, slowly and with care. Mentioning we have many around us whom care about us succeeding and willing to help and that it is safe to talk with me. They have been carefully worded and I have only sent them when feeling confident and in in semi good spirits. I have avoided sending anything when feeling desperate or depressed.

I know she reads what I have sent, but I never got/ get a reply.
I have only recieved a couple/ few texts from her since I last posted and talked/ seen her for a combined total of about 10 minutes.

I had to finally file an emergency petition to see my children again. As I had mentioned, my WW took them from home while I was not there and it took 5 months and a court petition to see them again. Parenting time began the first week of November and I currently have them 2 to 3 days per week.

My 21 year old oldest daughter now currently lives with me, with her fianc� and my now 1 week old granddaughter. We live at my parents home as during the temporary agreement filed with the court, my WW refused to allow our children to spend time in the family home. I figured it best to simply move there rather than drive back and forth constantly. I do not have any desire to be there anyway as my WW wife works one mile away and (former) AP2 lives 1 mile in the other direction.
(The bank is likely taking it soon anyway as I can no longer afford to pay for it alone)
My oldest child is very indiferent to the situation. She says she "does not approve" of her mom having affairs, but doesn't really care that she did/ does. She reports little things about me to her mom that can be used against me, and makes FB posts about her mom being "great" "supermom" and "the best in the world".

My other two children still say they do not care that she had affairs (although my youngest does not really mean it).
To my children, their mom is a princess and I am the one who is a liar and a thief.
My youngest however has been slowly coming around to reality. She has begun and has now been through several therapy sessions
and is starting to once again reconnect with me.
She even very recenty told me... "she knows mom is doing very bad things." and that "she loves me very much because I never give up on her".

My middle child I believe does mean what she says and still very much believes what she was taught while away from me. That this is all my fault. She is very abusive toward me and says she doesn't care that I am her dad.
(Although has never given a reason why I might be at fault)
My middle child had one counciling session and literally told the councilor she believes I am to blame and she does not like me at all. She is 17 next month and has told me once she is 18, she is done with me.
I feel no matter how hard I try, we will be estranged... and I do not know why.

I will try to be back soon, as I do have new questions.

Thanks.

I just read the reply in Grace1000's thread about refusing mediation. This was actually one of my questions.

About 2 weeks ago, I received a letter in the mail with 2 dates on it to attend mediation with WW in a courthouse room.
(My lawyer did not inform me this letter was arriving)

The first date is in 2 days.
Yesterday I was told the purpose is to try and work out a permanent and/ or updated agreement for child parenting, decision making regarding children and other logistics.

I was hoping it would give myself and my WW an opportunity to talk, but I have never been through anything like this, so I have no idea what to expect. Is it advisable to not attend mediation, under any circumstance?

What makes it harder is that it is tomorrow, one year to the very day that our family discovered her affair. I am still experiencing small daily breakdowns, and that 24 thought loop has not subsided.

I have also been told just recently, by my children, that my WW entered and "supposedly" quickly ended another "relationship" with a co-worker. Some kid 13 years her junior and less than 10 years older than our oldest daughter. I was directed to a "soundcloud" link of this person composing cheesy bad homemade love songs to her and uploading them online.
My children told me "They were not really seeing each other, but broke up".
(whatever that means)

Perhaps someone might be able to give advice on what should be made clear to the mediator?
Do I mention her having affairs and directly exposing my children to them ?
From what I believe I have learned here, they will take none of it into consideration.

What I should/ should not convey to my WW?
Can I use this as an opportunity to try and express desire to recover?

I would not use mediation as a tool for recovery. This is a tool for you to protect your children (custody) and property. That is your focus.

What went wrong with you and your younger children? Why are they siding with their mom? Have you nurtured a relationship with them? I can only infer from your post that you have lost a connection with them. It sounds like you have a lot of lost time to make up with them. If I were in your shoes I would meet with them and let them know that you plan to ask for joint custody (if that is your desire).

Even though mediation is not the place for you to work on recovering your marriage, if you are in Plan A, then you should find ways OUTSIDE of mediation and other legal proceedings to let your wife know that you still love her, and you should find ways to fill her love bank even if you are living apart.

If you are in Plan B, then you cannot express a desire to recover, because you already did that in your Plan B letter and you need to recover yourself by keeping away from her.

I will focus on the children and (recovery) of property.
* If presented an opportunity, I feel I might express that I do not want any of this. That a much brighter path is there to take.

I do not know what happened with the children.
We had a wonderful relationship our whole lives, and also within the time after my WW walked out and moved to her mothers. They even initiated conversation about "moving on without mom".

I had explained earlier in this thread my WW had no time for them, while her first (long term) affair was in full practice.
Once that started to dissolve, she started asking me for her to spend time with them, and I never refused. We had an agreed schedule between us and she broke it within only a few weeks.

It culminated in her waiting until I was at work one day in early June, and completed her plan (unknown to me) to take them from home and have my oldest daughter bring all of their belongings and most of the family furniture to her mothers.
It took finding a lawyer, 5 months time and filing an emergency petition to see them again.

While they were gone, we communicated through phone calls and text messages. Slowly they stopped responding and/ or telling me to stop talking to them. I was then reduced to sending good night texts, without replies.

The emergency petition and finding a lawyer, resulted in a now temporary agreement, in which I would/ will have them 2 to 3 days per week (but could not take them home). I wanted more, but she would not agree and I was instructed to go with what she said or I would not see them at all, until a court ruling.

Upon our first time back together it was instantly clear they were what I can only describe as poisoned. Their personalities were changed 180 degrees and had hostility toward me I had never seen before. This was now all my fault (without providing explanation). I was bad because I "hurt" their mom (again without explanation). That I was a mean and terrible dad who never cared about them.

Counseling has helped my youngest and we are restoring quickly.
Although the temporary agreement states my WW will work with me to provide counseling for the children and myself, she has refused to do anything whatsoever. In fact she has violated several aspects of the agreement several times.

I have told my lawyer several times, I want physical guardianship, but he pushes back on my requests. He has also stated he is going to ask that my WW be held in contempt, but never does it.

you need a new lawyer also she brainwashed the kids

I was about to respond to and expand on the replies just above and mention and ask for some advice about some developments, both good and bad. But the latest occurrence just happened, that I would like to ask about and address first.

It has been just under a year since exposure of the long term affair with OM1. I just heard from my WW (whom surprisingly seems a little willing to talk more... although far from any major leap forward) and she seems to still believe my exposing to our friends, family and the OM's BW and friends, was a vindictive act.

* She did originally receive a copy of the letter I sent one of OM1's friends. (It went from one of OM's friends, to him, to her) It very much stuck closely to the outline from the 101 thread here, including the explanation that I love and care about her.

I have not responded to this as of yet, but would like to again show her it was not that way in any form.

I typed up an initial rough response that I would like to ask opinions on... and am wondering if it is the right thing to do/ send... and/or how I might need to alter it.

Thank You.


<< I want to softly and very honestly express that by asking those whom care about us, and those concerned and affected, for help and support, was and is an essential, honest and caring step toward success. I am sorry you are still upset with letting those whom care about us and our family know the truth. Those whom care about us, including our wonderful and understanding family, want to do all they can to help us succeed. Truth with affection is a far easier and supportive, than secrecy. It was to affectionately help us to create honesty and openness. To overcome destructive behavior. To help us. Not to humiliate or cause distrust. Everything done, at every moment, has been to help both of us move away from a destructive course and create honesty and affection.
I treasure our marriage and our family. Letting people know the truth was an act of caring and an intimate showing, from the beginning, that I am doing all I can to help us to heal and move toward the brightest path. >>

Revised...

<< I want to softly and very honestly express that by asking those whom care about us, and those concerned and affected, for help and support, was and is an essential, honest and caring step toward success. It was to lovingly ask for us to have support. To let them and everyone know I am wiling to do all needed to fight for your, ours and our children's happiness. To heal our marriage, to show I love and care about you.
I am sorry you are still upset with letting those whom care about us and our family know the truth. Those whom care, including our wonderful and understanding family, want to do all they can to help us succeed. Truth with love and affection is a far easier, supportive and gentle than secrecy and deceit.
It was to affectionately help us to create honesty and openness.
To overcome destructive behavior. To help us and all involved. Not to humiliate or as an act of revenge in any form.
Everything done, at every moment, has been to help both of us move away from a destructive course and create honesty and affection. I treasure our marriage and our family. Letting people know the truth was an act of caring and an intimate showing, from the beginning, that I am doing all I can to help us to heal and move toward the brightest path. >>


* It is a struggle not to add it was also to expose a POS manipulator from continuing to intrude on our family's lives. Even she knows he lied to her as much they were lying to everyone else. I instead wrote "...those concerned and affected" and "...To help us and all involved".

Internal thought:
She is still under the thought that I am a #*&%$ for telling our and his friends. No apparent concern of the pain, and disappointment they brought to everyone they know on this Earth. It is strange...They would tell each other they were "going to be with each other forever and a day" and had "no regrets for doing what they were doing". Now...I am a (bad word) for being the cause of people knowing(?) If no regrets... Why not tell the world?
I have learned here, that is how it usually is, but still not much understanding of why.

You can't reason with a wayward. Keep it short and simple. "I'm sorry your affair has caused so much devastation to your life and our family. I love you and I'm willing to recover our marriage and family."

You response is too long and groveling. You didn't do anything wrong and by acting like you did, you're playing HER game. Don't send your version. It's not going to help the situation.

Thank you. I will keep it that much shorter.

I wanted to directly address her comment about still thinking I exposed the affair for revenge. She is still angry that OM1 was exposed and that I am the bad guy for outing him and letting the people we know, know about the two of them.

I understand the above suggestion addresses this, but she will not pick up on the fact that I am referring to her specific comment. She said this to me on the phone, and if I am to respond, it will be in an email.

I will need to preface it with something like...
<< You had said asking people to support and help us was vindictive. It was not... (followed by the above suggested reply).

Does this seem alright?

She will not/can not receive a message like this. She is in the fog and HAS to believe you are the enemy to make sense of/and avoid her own destructiveness. Putting it back in her court by reminding her that HER AFFAIR is what caused all the damage is the best response IMO. If she ever gets out of the fog, she will understand that your motives weren't vindictive.

I realize you still love her and want to heal the marriage. Still, you don't need to suck up to her and if you do (these letters, though genuine, sound suck-up-y) she will have even less respect for you. Keep putting the responsibility for all that's happened back on her, where it belongs.

- I had sent the reply just as suggested.
No more. no less.

More recently, without my being notified, she arrived to pick up our oldest child and our new grandchild. I had asked her how she was doing. The response was "I am not doing good at all". I sent a message a couple days later, that I am sorry she is not doing well, and reiterated the same message about being sorry her affair and actions are causing her misery.
The reply was "I am not doing well, because of an abscessed molar. Not from whatever you are on about"... Then tossed out a threat. (her developed MO when I refer to what she has done)
Also not the first time she has faked confusion at the word "affair" or pretended she did not know what I was talking about when directly using it. She will insult me for "telling" others about her and OM , but has never admitted that what she did was an affair.
I replied with stating I was sorry to learn of the tooth and wrote a sentence about what we did when I had the same trouble a couple years ago. I finished by saying although I am sorry she is still upset, it was nice to see she replied. And I want her to feel safe in continuing.

Although I cut way back on communication attempts, for various reasons and circumstances, explained earlier, I did not previously enter a "proper" plan B. The largest reason being it would not have been under my terms, and as a result would not have had the effect on either of us as intended.

I feel I did follow all of the advice given in this thread.
* Although on some occasions it was contradictory from one reply to the next. Even the advice from writing the radio program contradicted itself at one point (which is all understandable as not everyone can have the same views to a circumstance).
But stopped short of sending a full on plan b letter.
Because I did not, I felt alright in continuing attempts to gently communicate.

With the most recent events, I am going to do all I can to resist trying any further.
Part of me wants to believe the woman I have loved for a quarter century is still there somewhere, and I can get through to her by continuing to try... the other part realizes that person disappeared, without my knowledge, years ago. There was a person just pretending to be the same. What makes it that much harder is that I have never been given the respect of even getting a reason as to why.

Question...

The charity organization is now ready to proceed with disciplinary action against OM1, (the long term affair which brought me to this forum) as he is now scheduled to return from a separate year long suspension on other charges.
They want specifics as to what happened and how the organization's resources and his/their positions within it were used to directly cover the affair. They want the true nature of conflicts caused within the organization, witnessed by and participated in by hundreds and thousands of members. (They bent and misinterpreted various rules to try and maintain their positions, under lies of working toward progressing the organization, when in reality it was to maintain plausible excuses to continue flying off together). The bending of these rules and procedures caused a multi year uproar as 1,000's of people took sides.
Revealing this amount of information would go beyond the workplace exposure template found here on the forum.

I am comfortable with providing semi-detailed specifics of the affair and the trauma caused to our family and children.
Not holding back on exposing OM in detail. I have already done so with a preliminary disciplinary officer I am familiar with, due to my own previous position. The next step is submitting these same details to a panel of officers. All of which are fully familiar with myself, WW and OM, as we previously held the top three positions.
I will explain it is done to inform the organization of the OM's blatant abuse of the position and the misuse of the organization and it's resources, it's moral codes, endangering it's reputation and all done for self-gratification.

The charges are only against OM, and as with the exposure letters, I will be asking for support and honestly explaining this is not to seek punishment for my WW and doing all I can to help her and our family.

my questions are...

There is a possibility that there will be leaks and the story will grow to a larger audience. (this is a charity organization with over 11,000 members, and the administration now in control was hostile to WW during our administration), but I guess I can not be concerned about that as I have done nothing to be ashamed of.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

In addition, some time ago, the other BS asked me not to file charges against or expose her WH to the organization, with the reason being... "taking away the organization from him will worsen his depression" (Like I care). So, the sharing of information between me and other BS will likely come to an end once the other BS finds out it is proceeding.

* I have the same question about this as well(?)

What I am really concerned about is that the other BS has done little to hold her WH accountable and has accomplished little, if anything, of the checklist. There is a real possibility that whatever is written by me within the hearing, will go from me, to OM, to my WW.
Nothing will be a lie on my part, but does anyone have experience with such a situation?

I in no way want any of this to negatively impact myself
or any possibility it will negatively affect my working on gaining custodianship of the children. I don't want any outlandish "harassment" charge or some type of OOP.

I decided it was best to move forward with the charges and expose OM to the organization. I have no orders to not speak with anyone, so if it gets back to WW, so be it.
She'll just use it to further convince herself I am the bad guy, but perhaps it will further wake her up to the misery she has caused everyone, including herself. It will also help the other BS, as it will close off a major method of contact.

In an hour I have the second of two court ordered mediation meetings with WW. As others have said here, I would also suggest avoiding mediation if possible. It is miserable.
Unless you are willing to give even more of what has been taken from you, or are certain WS is willing to make an effort to restore any normalcy and/ or return any of what they have taken (children, property... ect), it is pointless. During the first meeting (in which you are interviewed separately) the mediator made it clear they care nothing about what happened any time before the moment of sitting in their office. Adultery means nothing, exposing children to affairs means nothing, bad decisions and bad parenting... nothing.

I am also in a state that heavily favors wives and the court cares nothing of these same issues and the process is designed to get it over with as quickly as possible. In fact, within the last year, and by the time this is done, they will have removed 3 laws that make it possible for reconciliation or slow the process.

- Removing the possibility of a "fault" divorce.
- Removing the stipulation that married couples be legally separated for 6 months.
- Removing the requirement that both sides stand in front of a judge and state they agree that there is no possibility of reconciliation and that this is best for the family.

This last one will be eliminated in a few weeks. Previously if one side disagreed to "irreconcilable differences" and disagreed to the above statements, the judge would weigh other options to immediate divorce. Now it will only require one side saying they agree (the petitioner) and that is it.

I am finally ready to send my PBL. I had written it months ago, but literally 2 days before I was to send it, she filed for divorce. (This was unfortunately the result of confronting OM2... but I would do it again). That knocked me off my feet and before I could recover she, in several relatively rapid phases, stopped communicating with me. This made me feel that sending the letter would have little effect on either of us.

But today in mediation she sat there and just blatantly lied about everything. I counted no less than a dozen hurtful outright lies in under 40 minutes. About me being violent, a heavy drinker, mistreating the children, that I invaded her mothers home and stole things. Lied about things she has done, things she has not done. Claiming she has tried to communicate. Hasn't violated court orders. Even lied about things our children have done or said. I felt I was in defense mode the whole time and/ or having to calmly explain various truths. While she was angry and abusive the entire time. Several times insulting me, calling me a liar and telling me to "shut up"! (right there in the meeting).

In addition, openly said to the mediator "I have not hurt the kids in any way because I have been honest when bringing them around OM2 and OM3".

I thought to myself... "This looks like the woman I love on the outside, but there is a strange insane person in there".

I have been nothing but calm, supportive, gentle, and understanding since the very day after discovery, one year ago. Meanwhile, WW has been on a relentless crusade of abuse, mental cruelty, lies and theft.

Perhaps I can get some guidance on my PBL?

I had written it some time ago, before WW filed. I wrote it as a "love letter" as the template suggests. It is long and it is filled with emotion. But recent advice says I should not send such things.
It is hard to know what to do at this moment as I want to capture 24 years of life in one letter.

I am still struggling with my PBL. The template in the 101 thread advises to write it as a love letter, and to address the complaints heard. I have written it with confidence, but by addressing the complaints and stating how I have learned to change them... along with the affection of a love letter, seems a fine line between confidence and it being perceived as neediness/ pleading. It is also 3x as long as the template.

I am also bouncing back and forth between a PBL and offering a small message to start from the beginning, and if nothing happens... sending it later.

I can not seem to find a IM. Over several months I have asked 9 members of friends and family. None want to do this.

If I were to post my letter, might I find some help with it?

I have read it and refined it many times. I am happy with it. It is a love letter, but also places responsibility on her for all she has done.
It is honest and affectionate, but I have learned honest and affectionate letters are not always best.

( I might add it is still a bit long and gets a little personal... but what here isn't )

Thank you.

Yes, posting it for feedback is a good idea.

Thank you.
I will in the next day or so.


I also wanted to ask... I am guessing the advise is I do nothing about OM3?

* A 30yo co-worker of WW (she is 43), and someone she again exposes the children to. It is also someone I have met at her workplace, in the past.

Confronting OM2 ( Or as I explained in this thread, his father, as OM2 literally ran away from me and hid ) caused him to disappear quickly.

( Unfortunately, it was confronting OM2 that caused WW to stop trying and file for D, but if I had to do that again, I would do nothing different )

OM2's father had told me my WW told them she was divorced (before WW even attempting to file). Unlike that situation, OM3 knows WW is married... and obviously doesn't care.
I can only guess she has told him she is divorcing.
( Last I knew he also had a GF and a small child )

* Before discovering OM2's identity, I had thought it was this new person. I guess it just took some time before WW actually made him OM3.

This is all still unnerving and other than building the strength to plan B, I am unsure of what to do. There really is no Plan A anymore. Not long after filing, it became me reaching out.. and getting nothing in return.

This is my BPL in its current form:
https://app.box.com/s/1ukynj96164vgrkml5n820nrps9mbb36

I built and rebuilt it over several months through a combination of things I feel need to be said, the lessons learned here, and by borrowing from those whom have been kind enough to share their own letters.

Those who might have the time to read through it, I would welcome any advice with any need to alter/ correct it.
I want it to have the impact it is intended. To express to my WW that she has always been loved. That she is about to throw away a quarter century of life and marriage with a loving husband. About to rip our family apart. To hold her accountable for the terrible things she has done, and all due to an outrageous fantasy of being with another BS's husband from 10,000 miles away.

I might also note that the few "complaints" I address early in the letter all came after her affair was discovered and exposed. Things she has blurted out in anger over the last several months. They are still confusing to me as half of them are complaints about actions she knows full well were performed to directly support and defend her, as well as taking care of our family. But somehow they have been turned against me as "self interest". The other half describe infrequent occurrences. There are only a few total, but it is all I have to go on.

* I am also still struggling a bit with my wanting to do something about OM3 and if it is appropriate to do so.

Thank you again to all.

That's not a Plan B letter. The template for the letter is given by Dr Harley in the book Surviving an Affair. I very much doubt that you've seen approval on this forum during the past 5 years for what you have written

Follow Dr Harley's template to the letter. It says all that needs to be said.

Sample Plan B letter, from SAA (revised edition) pages 77-78:

My Dearest __________,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my goals without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. [Add your willingness to address other complaints that the unfaithful spouse may have communicated prior to the affair.]

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship once and for all. Living with you under these conditions has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it.

Until your affair ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends, ________, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to see our children on schedule that is mutually convenient. They will provide transportation. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through them.

I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you th is way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are together. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently end your relationship, follow precautions to avoid absolutely any contact with the other person, and join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss our future together with you.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day. But I cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in this relationship.

With all my love,
(signed)

This letter should be delivered by your friends to the unfaithful spouse, and a copy sent to the lover with a note at the bottom saying:

I love ______ with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for that chance.

I see.
I need to find a way to say more, using less.
It is one of the few reasons I have not yet sent it.
I guess there are a lot of things that are simply going to have to remain unsaid. I am going to need to regroup and start again.

A difficulty I am having is that the PBL guidance advises:

- Writing it as a love letter.
- To mention some good memories the two of you have.
- To curtail it to your own situation.
- Add your willingness to address other complaints that the unfaithful spouse may have communicated prior to the affair.

These are all things I would like to do. I suppose I need to find a way to do it in a brief way.

Every day is a struggle.

I still have not been able to find an IM. I have now asked nearly a dozen people and none want to do it. Even after explaining they will likely hear little to nothing from WW.

To give myself a little more time to mentally and correctly prepare for Plan B, to also find an IM, and to try once more to muster up one of the last attempts to pull WW from her actions, I have been cautiously thinking of sending something such as below, and wondering if it is appropriate.

(I know positively she will read anything I might send, and for unknown reasons marks them as "important", although I likely will get no reply. I can likely get her to answer a phone call as well, but it has been suggested to me by those I know that calling unintentionally conveys weakness)

-------

<< I have been taking the time to learn and understand about emotional needs and where they grew to not be met. I apologize for my part in allowing an environment which made your affairs possible. I am sure that is not the person you wanted to become or the way you want everyone to think about you.
Because I care about you and your feelings, I want to help you from these aspects and for me to do what is needed to teach everyone we both have the ability to change.
I want to achieve a difference in the way I and we have been communicating, doing the work to return to best friends, able to again talk with each other as ourselves, and taking the steps to lead us in the right direction.
I want to keep the way clear for us to help each other both learn where any mistakes were made and permanently correct them.
I have listened and am willing to address and correct the mistakes you have been able to share with me, but I also need to know you have the ability to do the same. I do still love and care about you, but this is the most pain one can endure and I can't and will no longer try doing this alone. >>
-------------------

- I am also still hoping I might get an opinion on whether I should do anything to run off OM3.

- Additionally, although I have spoken to OM1's BS several times about this, she had done nothing to have her WH remove the many Instagram photos he has of him and my WW together.
I am debating on finally doing something about it, and placing comments on each one.

Writing can be a great tool for your own healing. You can use a lot of these letters as journal entries, as a way to get everything off your chest. You want to have direct and meaningful communication with her but unfortunately, none of this will penetrate the fog and will only irritate her.

The letter directly above sounds preachy and condescending. She already left! She has shown no desire to reconcile. This letter will only annoy her. You are trying to dictate how things can be going forward when in her mind, there is no forward together.

I would let go of the desire to run off OM3. It is time for you to completely shift the focus back to your life and your healing. You will be reflecting on the marriage for a long time but you won't be able to do that process with her. It's just not going to happen and your need to keep turning towards her in the hope that you can get through to her is going to keep the pain fresh.

Write a simple, plan B letter and close the door. Since you have very little communication now, you might not need an IM. Maybe in the divorce, things can be so tidy that there just isn't a need for communication. Perhaps you are not explaining the role of the IM clearly. No one will help you with this?

Write her a letter and say goodbye. Use the template on the site. Don't deviate!

She still might come back someday but at this point there is nothing you can do to make it happen. You keep looking for a way to have some influence here and you don't. It hurts but once you see this clearly, you can invest all your energy into YOU, YOUR DAUGHTERS and the life you want to live going forward.

Let her go.

I guess that is what I finally have to do.
Finally giving up is going to be the hardest most painful thing I will ever do. I never thought it would actually come to this.

What makes it harder is that I have been given almost nothing for a reason as to why. Just a few nothing reasons, told to me after discovery, half of which would actually be considered as appreciated. I am sure they are just more lies. I have racked my brain for over a year now and can't even think of an EN that was not met.
In my perception, for over 20+ years she was a fun, gentle, loving wife and mom, and then almost overnight became a vicious, selfish, monster. It is hard to comprehend that person just vanished.

(in retrospect, the signs of an affair were there, but they had the means to hide it in plain sight in front of nearly 10,000 people. I also trusted her enough to believe the lies that covered for the odd circumstances)

I believe I have explained the IM role to all I have asked pretty well. Nearly all have too much contempt for her to even want to receive a message. The few further away from me don't want that kind of involvement.

I will send the PBL exactly as the template, leaving out the part about an IM. I guess if she ever does communicate anything, it will come through my oldest daughter.

It kills me that I had always been a happy, funny, strong person, yet I have been in tears at least once a day for nearly 2 years. It is going to be a struggle moving forward and working to get back to that, and I know I will continue to have low points. I will try to be strong and happy for and around my children. I have been pretty good hiding pain from them. Perhaps continuing to reach out to them will reverse the alienation and estrangement my wife has poisoned them with.

Thank you everyone whom has helped me over this past year. It is unfortunate that nothing worked. These are great concepts, a great program, and many generous members.

I guess if the moderators feel inclined, this thread can be moved to the divorce area.

The day after the above post, I sent the PBL exactly as the template shows. Nearly word for word and no more.
I have also asked a sibling once more about being an IM and they agreed.

Still struggling with not sending OM3 a message. It kills me to know he is there. I want to be able to tell him his role in ripping apart a family, that she is a serial cheater, that everyone knows about him and he will not be accepted.

I am going to be turning ask for any advice on questions that help protect myself and my children.

Because mediation went nowhere, there has been a "Guardian ad litem" (GAL) assigned. Has anyone had experience with this?