Marriage Builders®
Posted By: wifeinstrife Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 12:27 PM
I was hoping someone would have some advice for surviving my husbands affair with his first love from high school. We have been married for 36 years and he by accident ran into his old high school sweetheart and they are now very much in love with each other and can not stop their emotional affair. My husband confessed this 4 months in on our vacation and it has completely devastated me. It has now been going on for 16 months and has no sign of stopping. I have done all the wrong things and I am so unsure of what to do. I have read all about this subject, tried working on myself and talking with him. This affair partner is very religous and very unhappy with her life. She has suffered much and he says she needs him. She is on her fourth husband and has convinced him it is all because she really loved and wanted my husband before they broke up 40 yrs ago. I have asked several times if he wants a divorce and he continues to say what is the hurry and he is not sure. Unfortunately I have read texts and listened to conversations between them so I am pretty convinced it is the real thing. She is also married. So what is stopping these two and why wont he just let me go?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 12:34 PM
hello wife, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am headed out the door, but please go read the exposure thread in my signature. That is your best chance of saving your marriage. Come back and we will help you develop a plan.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 12:58 PM
wife,

So sorry for the things that have brought you here.

Please do as Melody has instructed. Your first course of action is to do what you can to bust up this affair. It starts with exposure.

Quote:
I have asked several times if he wants a divorce and he continues to say what is the hurry and he is not sure.


Your health will suffer while he continues this abuse on you. You need to pick a path, divorce him or save the marriage. Either way your first course of action needs to be to expose this affair to everyone around you, him and her.

Quote:
Unfortunately I have read texts and listened to conversations between them so I am pretty convinced it is the real thing.


These two wayward spouses are fogged out people not thinking clearly because they think they've found their true love. They have none of the challenges that come with marriage so of course the grass looks greener.

The OW is obviously a troll who can't figure out how to have a happy marriage. Now she's going after your H. Time to get rid of her.

Quote:
She has suffered much and he says she needs him.


That's nonsense. Don't listen to him. Kindly ask him to stop talking about this woman and to stop seeing this woman as it is causing you great harm.

Please stick around here, read all the materials. Get yourself Dr Harley's Surviving an Affair book. Get a plan of action in place with the help of these great people. DO NOT let him in on your plan.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 01:11 PM
I can tell you what is going to stop these two. Reality. Affairs are built on fantasy. All you need to do is take out everything that supports and perpetuates the affair fantasy. Once that happens, the affair will disintegrate, just like a building in a controlled demolition.

You start with exposure. Everybody who can exert any influence on your wayward husband or his affair partner needs to know the truth about what is going on. Detailed instructions are in MelodyLane's signature.

You need to understand that your husband's affair is of a garden variety. There is nothing special about it. Affairs like this fail nearly every the time. Your actions will speed up the inevitable. So, understand your empowerment. You are in control here.
I have read all about exposure before. I really hesitate to do this. Her husband does not know about their affair but I am pretty sure he knows something is wrong because she tells my husband her husband has talked about moving out. Since this is her 4th husband I think she is very embarassed to go thru another divorce. She is very religous and absolutely will not touch or kiss or have relations without being married. This I feel of course keeps my husband on the line because he wants this to go farther. And one of the reasons he is not sure about her. So he goes to her church and has become religous too. Right now they can justify they are not doing anything wrong and are not really having an affair, and as he says they are good friends and that he helps her. They go to great links to protect me and keep me from knowing they talk and text alot each day. Since this has been going on so long I am not sure exposure would be wise or even help. They have tried to stop at least 4 times that I know of and always go back to each other in 2 days time. I myself have moved out and stayed away for 3 months but financially had to move back because money is an issue. He says he loves us both. I love him and want to stay married and I know I am codependent and a doormat. I think he is also just afraid to let go. But this hurts me to the point of being physically ill. Can you wait out these first loves?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 01:24 PM
Wife, keeping the affair a secret only serves to enable it. There is nothing we can do to help you overcome the damage of your enabling. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret helps it thrive and grow. The longer you keep the secret for them, the more entrenched it becomes. You are headed towards divorce now.

There is nothing we can do for you if you choose to enable the affair. You must first accept that you don't know what you are doing and be open to tried and proven methods if you want to turn this around.

Otherwise this is hopeless.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 01:28 PM
The longer you wait to take action the harder it will be to save your marriage because the longer this goes on, the more entrenched your husbands wayward mindset. So even if this affair ends, he will likely start another one because of this mindset.

Would you be willing to take advice from people who have saved their marriages? We didn't save our marriages by enabling.
I know they are in a fantasy of the high school variety because that is just how they act, like 18 year olds. I keep thinking I need to let this run its course because they are in this fantasy. My husband has also thought something else is always going to be better. That the grass is always greener and it never turns out that way. Deep down I think he knows this with her. She is a completely different person from me which is part of the attraction. I realize that I do have power and she is a flawed person. I represent stability and safety to him. I know all these things but it still hurts to know how loving and romantic and giving he is with her. I have asked him to stop and he sees how this is hurting me physically and emotionally. I am very afraid to expose them as because her husband will leave her and she will be free.
I know I am enabling them, and I am open to trying to expose this but I am afraid of the consequences. I have read Dr. Harleys book and talked with a therapist and focused on myself and healing myself. I am willing to listen to anyway to expose this but it is going to be very rough. I have never liked people to be angry at me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 02:12 PM
Yes, the fantasy has thrived and grown for years because of secrecy. Keeping their secret fuels the fantasy. That is how you are enabling it. If she wanted to leave her husband she would have done it already. HOWEVER, by keeping her secret for her, you make it much more likely he will leave you for her.

You are making critical strategic mistakes because you don't understand the dynamics of an affair. Your ideas have not worked and will not work. This will not turn out well unless you can put aside your own failed ideas.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I know I am enabling them, and I am open to trying to expose this but I am afraid of the consequences. I have read Dr. Harleys book and talked with a therapist and focused on myself and healing myself. I am willing to listen to anyway to expose this but it is going to be very rough. I have never liked people to be angry at me.


Yet you are not afraid that he will eventually leave you for the OW? That is where you are headed now. Have you heard the saying: "Cowards die many times before their deaths, The valiant never taste of death but once."

Enabling an affair and putting up with this is the antithesis to 'healing." Women have nervous breakdowns from living like this. YOU CANT HEAL YOURSELF EVER LIVING IN THIS ENVIRONMENT. You can focus on the sunshine in the sinking Titanic but the ship will still sink and you will die.
Ok I understand that. I also believe if she wanted to leave her husband she would do it, but my husband doesnt leave either. I know what I am doing is not working believe me. But I am not sure this is a garden variety of fantasy affair and I dont want to enable it but I dont also want someone to do something aweful either. If I expose this to her husband and I am not sure how to do that there is going to be major fallout.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 02:37 PM
Yes, there will be major fallout ....... for the affair. That is what we want.

You will want to expose this very broadly, to her pastor, her husband, her parents, etc.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:09 PM
But you are doing something very awful by enabling it. You are harming your marriage, yourself and you are harming the OWs husband. You know the facts and are doing nothing to stop it. How can the ow's husband protect himself and his children from this affair if he doesn't know the truth? Sure, you have chosen to be an enabler but he may choose to save his marriage. He can't do that without the facts.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
So what is stopping these two and why wont he just let me go?


Your WH has two women meeting his needs and he likes it.

There is no reason for him to leave his loving wife and comfy home of 36 years. There is no reason for him to stop his fairy tale romance. It is his secret and no one is holding him accountable.


Take control of your life and expose. Continuing on like this is a death of a thousand cuts.



Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
But I am not sure this is a garden variety of fantasy affair ...


I have read this same story thousands of times here.

It is a "text book" affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:14 PM
Amen!
Of course your husband doesn't leave, he is being left alone by you to enjoy having the both of you compete for him. And I doubt that this affair is not physical after all of this time.

You WANT there to be major fallout.

As soon as you expose widely with no warning, the both of them will see what they really have...a lie. Once that lie is exposed to the light of day, it won't be so much fun, will it?

As Melody has pointed out, it is extremely dangerous to your health for you to live like this. You must demand that he end ALL form of contact with her for life, and starting with exposure is going to show him that you are serious.

You seem to me as if you are worrying about the other woman here! Why are you worrying about her four marriages when she has a bullseye aimed right at YOUR marriage?
Posted By: pokerface Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:19 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Her husband does not know about their affair but I am pretty sure he knows something is wrong because she tells my husband her husband has talked about moving out.


This BH deserves to know what is really wrong with his marriage.

I would have given anything for someone to pick up the phone and tell me the truth about my life.

Doing the right thing is never wrong.
I would be willing to try and expose it to her husband and perhaps the pastor, but her parents are elderly and she just moved them out of their home to assisted living and they are not well, that I believe would be cruel. I just went through a horrible experience with my parents so I cant do that to her. She has sisters and children and grandchildren and other family members who love her and I am not convinced this whole affair is her doing. I believe it is my husbands fault and he has done a real good job of convincing her how bad his relationship and marriage has been and he has convinced her he loves her and wants her and she fell for it. He has admitted it is his fault and he knows he hurts me and more than likely hurts her too and admitted he has made a mistake. So I am not completely convinced ruining her life is good either. Yes I know she is an adult and can make her own decisions and she is fully participating in this. I think he needs to come to the realization he needs help with this and to get the courage to do what he needs too, either end it or end it with me. I think I am the strongest of the three of us and have learned the most and have changed and grown and they cant.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:35 PM
You are helping her ruin her life by enabling her affair. You are helping her destroy 2 marriages. There is no "strength" and no compassion in enabling an affair.

You are not making yourself "strong;" you are making the AFFAIR strong, at the expense of many innocent people.

This is all bullsh** you have told yourself to justify your enabling.
Their affair is not physical I know this for a fact she wont touch him or kiss him or anything which I find very strange. My husband wants it badly and they talk about it and text about it but are not doing it. She is very religous and talks about Gods plan for them etc all the time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:40 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I would be willing to try and expose it to her husband and perhaps the pastor, but her parents are elderly and she just moved them out of their home to assisted living and they are not well, that I believe would be cruel. I just went through a horrible experience with my parents so I cant do that to her. She has sisters and children and grandchildren and other family members who love her and I am not convinced this whole affair is her doing. I believe it is my husbands fault and he has done a real good job of convincing her how bad his relationship and marriage has been and he has convinced her he loves her and wants her and she fell for it. He has admitted it is his fault and he knows he hurts me and more than likely hurts her too and admitted he has made a mistake. So I am not completely convinced ruining her life is good either. Yes I know she is an adult and can make her own decisions and she is fully participating in this. I think he needs to come to the realization he needs help with this and to get the courage to do what he needs too, either end it or end it with me. I think I am the strongest of the three of us and have learned the most and have changed and grown and they cant.


These are all fogged out rationalizations to justify your conflict avoidance. You have created this fantasy narrative to justify your lack of action. As people who have saved their marriages we can objectively see what you are doing.

I don't say this to be harsh, but in the hopes you will WAKE UP when you hear the objective views of those who have been through this. We want to help you, but you have to drop these illusions.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:42 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Their affair is not physical I know this for a fact she wont touch him or kiss him or anything which I find very strange. My husband wants it badly and they talk about it and text about it but are not doing it. She is very religous and talks about Gods plan for them etc all the time.


How would you know it is not physical? I don't believe that for a minute. A woman who is "very religious" does not have an affair with a married man. You will know them by their fruits.
Of course I know you are correct in pointing out my conflict avoidance and rationalizations. It is all true and I know that about myself. It is not harsh it is the truth, which is all I have asked for from my husband many times. I also know this is not fair to her husband as this is what his first wife did to him also.
I know they are not physical, she will not touch him period. I know this for a fact,but its all her not my husband. he wants her. She has done this to all her husbands, will not have relations with them till they are married. Probably why two of them lasted less than a year.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I know they are not physical, she will not touch him period. I know this for a fact,but its all her not my husband. he wants her. She has done this to all her husbands, will not have relations with them till they are married. Probably why two of them lasted less than a year.


How do you know they have not had sex?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I would be willing to try and expose it to her husband and perhaps the pastor, but her parents are elderly and she just moved them out of their home to assisted living and they are not well, that I believe would be cruel. I just went through a horrible experience with my parents so I cant do that to her. She has sisters and children and grandchildren and other family members who love her and I am not convinced this whole affair is her doing. I believe it is my husbands fault and he has done a real good job of convincing her how bad his relationship and marriage has been and he has convinced her he loves her and wants her and she fell for it. He has admitted it is his fault and he knows he hurts me and more than likely hurts her too and admitted he has made a mistake. So I am not completely convinced ruining her life is good either. Yes I know she is an adult and can make her own decisions and she is fully participating in this. I think he needs to come to the realization he needs help with this and to get the courage to do what he needs too, either end it or end it with me. I think I am the strongest of the three of us and have learned the most and have changed and grown and they cant.


The above is....

Irrelevant

Rationalisation

Illogic

Backward thinking

Dangerous

...and other things. I can't post at length now, but I will just tell you that there were all sorts of reasons why I didn't expose my husband's affair to the other woman's husband. I had his contact details on day one of my Internet search, and I hung on to them for nearly two years. Meanwhile I begged, pleaded, threatened divorce, "fixed myself", ramped up our sex lives, lost tons of weight, wore make-up and looked gorgeous every single day, while my husband enjoyed every minute of having OW and me competing over him. This ended when I exposed to her husband, after nearly two years of this. Meanwhile, my mental health declined, and to some extent it has never fully recovered.

I would do anything to spare another woman from going through what I did, but I won't discuss, or even listen to your rationalisations. You are hurting yourself more than you will ever know by continuing your course of action.

You need to stop what you are doing. You don't know what you are doing. You are an idiot, as we all are when we are struggling with an affair.

You need to expose, today.
They talk on the phone, they text each other, they meet in a parking lot and she sits in the back seat to talk but will not touch him or kiss him. I have recorded their conversations recently because I wanted to know if they were physical to protect myself. He has said they are not and I believe that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 04:25 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
They talk on the phone, they text each other, they meet in a parking lot and she sits in the back seat to talk but will not touch him or kiss him. I have recorded their conversations recently because I wanted to know if they were physical to protect myself. He has said they are not and I believe that.


You should not believe anything he says. And you can't tell from a recording of them in a parking lot that they have never had sex.

The bottom line is that you should not assume anything and you should focus all your efforts on exposing the affair.

Are you prepared to step up and expose?
Posted By: azurite Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 04:25 PM
It really doesn't matter if they've touched or not. It is an affair. Yes, it will be very painful to expose. Painful for everyone involved. It is a frightening thing to do. There will be repercussions. But you need to decide which is worse - all of the consequences of exposure, or divorce. Those are your only two options. Is it worth saving your marriage to go through with total exposure?
I dont know if it is really worth what I am going to go through and have already been through to save my marriage, when I know what I know about how much he loves her. I have told him how much this hurts me and that it is an affair to me and he is hurting me but he will not stop. I can step up and expose, I think that is all I can do at this point. I really dont have much to lose right now.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 04:39 PM
wife,

Who's anger are you trying to avoid?

Your H's? If you are able to kill the affair and build a loving, romantic relationship with him he'll get over his anger in a hurry.

The OW's? She deliberately hurting you so why would you care if she is angry with you?

The OW's H? He will thank you profusely for bringing to the light of day the one thing that is making his life miserable.

Friends? Family? Anyone who doesn't support you in your attempts to save your marriage is no friend or family you need in your life and it would do you a world of good to care less what they think.

Physical or not, your H is having an affair and unless you do something about it you will continue to live in this nightmare or you'll be left behind due to your lack of action. He isn't going to fix this and it won't fix itself. Your H is a cake-eater. Time to ruin his cake.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 04:41 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I dont know if it is really worth what I am going to go through and have already been through to save my marriage, when I know what I know about how much he loves her. I have told him how much this hurts me and that it is an affair to me and he is hurting me but he will not stop. I can step up and expose, I think that is all I can do at this point. I really dont have much to lose right now.


You have a LOT to gain wife. That is what everyone here is telling you. Many of them have gained that by following Dr. Harley's plan.

By moving forward you speed up the inevitable. Stalling buys you nothing but more damage to your health.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 04:45 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I dont know if it is really worth what I am going to go through and have already been through to save my marriage, when I know what I know about how much he loves her. I have told him how much this hurts me and that it is an affair to me and he is hurting me but he will not stop. I can step up and expose, I think that is all I can do at this point. I really dont have much to lose right now.


I don't see what you have done to save your marriage, though. I think you have probably guessed at it like many of us have done until we actually had a plan. We can help you take a more strategic approach if you can follow a plan. Can you put aside your fears and your emotions and follow a plan? If so, there is chance we can help you save this.
It is hard to answer that because yes I am afraid of his anger and no I dont really care about her . I am sure her husband will thank me wouldnt you if you were married to her, and my family and friends are behind me 100 percent. It probably is me, because believe it or not our marriage right now is so improved in every way, and I know that sounds weird because of what he is doing, but it is. I am sure I will get flack for that comment because how can it be improved with what he is doing but it is and I guess i am living on those scraps and saying its ok when its not. Knowing I need to do something is why I came here after all this time. I needed to see what worked for other couples. I know I cant continue to live this way anyway.
What is the best way to contact the husband, by letter?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 05:38 PM
You have used the word 'cruel' when describing exposure to certain people in OW's life.

I want to point out that cheating on your husband, and having an affair with someone else's husband, is CRUEL. Hooking up with someone else's husband while their spouse suffers emotionally and mentally because of it is CRUEL. Telling lies upon lies to everyone in your life to get your kicks is CRUEL.

Exposure is simply telling the truth and asking for support. Are you saying you think being truthful or asking for support is 'cruel'?

AFFAIRS are what destroy reputations, relationships, and lives. Telling the truth does none of these things. Exposure is simply telling the truth.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 05:42 PM
Describing OW as 'very religious' is also quite laughable, as she is behaving in a disgusting and cruel NONreligious manner. I don't know of any religion that condones cheating, lying, stealing, and destroying lives for your own personal pleasure.
I tell myself these two selfish people are not in their right minds because I would never have believed my husband would lie like he does or go to such lengths to talk and see her. His work is suffering and so is his health. I have told him I am very concerned about him but he cant stop. I have express the same things you have just said and it doesnt matter to him. Perhaps the only thing to do is expose it and let the fallout occur.
Posted By: armymama Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 06:17 PM
Pick up the phone and call the husband. The absolute BEST first step for recovering our marriage from my H's affair was exposure. My husband later thanked me for stepping in and saving our marriage. Tell every one who is in a position to assist you in breaking up the affair: her husband, her children, your children (if you have them, haven't seen that in your posts), her pastor, her parents (elderly people know what happens in life and are in a position to pressure OW to end the affair).

Something it took some time for me to learn was that once I conquered my own fear, it became MUCH easier to set the bar high for my husband. I decided we were either going to have a great marriage together or I would never see or speak with him again. Today, we have a great marriage and are in love with each other.
Posted By: armymama Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 06:23 PM
Affairs are addictions. My husband hated himself for his affair, his lies and betrayal. Yet, he was unable to end it. He fought tooth and nail to keep the OW in his life. Before I knew about the affair, I was very worried about his health. Even after it ended, he was depressed for a long period of time.
He is very happy now.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 06:27 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have express the same things you have just said and it doesnt matter to him.


The reason for this is because of the addictive nature of affairs. Like alcohol for instance, when a person becomes addicted, their thinking is in a perpetual 'fog' and they do not think clearly or rationally. As an addict, all they care about is keeping the high. When you try to speak to your WH about ending the A because it is destructive and painful, it is the equivalent of trying to reason an alcoholic to stop drinking. It just isn't going to work.

Likewise, when he talks he is speaking from 'the fog' and is not rational. Listen to him in the same manner you would a falling down drunk.
He is addicted for sure. If he cant talk to her or see her he is in a foul mood. I can tell immediately. It would take a lot of courage for me to call the husband. I know he cant quit because they have tried many times at least 4 I know of. What does one say to the husband?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Perhaps the only thing to do is expose it and let the fallout occur.


YES.

As per the Exposure 101 thread, make a list of exposure targets and expose all at once. Do not trickle expose and do not let your WH know you will be exposing.

This affair has been going on a long time, so you need to deal it a giant blow to have a chance here. You cannot afford to do a trickle exposure or tip them off or do any other thing that would weaken your exposure.
I am pretty darn sure no one is going to thank me for exposing this affair especially my husband. He is very very protective of her and they are extremely worried her husband will find out and go to extreme measures that he does not. I have one son who is 23 and he knows what is going on and right now does not think much of his father, but their relationship is not that great. My sister and husband know as do other members of my family. I beleive the other womens sister knows too. Frankly i am not sure her family would care if she has a 5th husband because they expect it.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 08:13 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I am pretty darn sure no one is going to thank me for exposing this affair especially my husband. He is very very protective of her and they are extremely worried her husband will find out and go to extreme measures that he does not. I have one son who is 23 and he knows what is going on and right now does not think much of his father, but their relationship is not that great. My sister and husband know as do other members of my family. I beleive the other womens sister knows too. Frankly i am not sure her family would care if she has a 5th husband because they expect it.


As I said before, this affair is very entrenched and this is your one shot it. Include ALL of these people in your exposure. Even if you have told your family members about this in the past, keep them on the list. Let them know that your WH is continuing to carry on an affair with OW and you would appreciate their support and them using their influence to get him to end the affair.

Targeting everyone in her life, her H, family, clergy, church, etc. is going to make the biggest hit on this affair. You need to do this in one fell swoop.

My biggest concern is that you talk like you want to protect her. I cannot for the life of me understand that. Why would you want to protect a woman who is stealing your husband??? She is devastating your life and his, destroying your marriage. She is also destroying her husband and he doesn't even know why! That is wrong and cruel. You are protecting her and helping her with all of this destruction, with your enabling. You said you are the strongest woman, but enabling this lying destructive lifestyle is not strong at all. frown
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I know he cant quit because they have tried many times at least 4 I know of.
My husband tried to quit for twelve YEARS, and he couldn't do it either...UNTIL this group gave me the courage to do a mass Hammer-of-God exposure.

He quit that very day.
Of course he is protective of her...they are having an affair!

As others have said, your marriage can survive his anger, but it will never survive an active affair.

Since she is so worried that her husband will find out, he definitely needs to be your first exposure target (but have all of your targets ready to go so that you can expose all at once).

You tell her husband what you have told us, what you have seen and heard. You can offer to send him screen shots of the text messages and any other proof that you have.
Posted By: armymama Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 08:30 PM
Well, a very gutsy, but hugely effective move, would be to go to the next church service and stand up and tell EVERYONE what you know. Then ask for the entire congregations' support in ending the affair. That would stop this particular affair dead in its tracts.
Posted By: armymama Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 08:36 PM
I phoned the OWH a few hours after I found out about the affair. When I spoke with OWH, he was not the least bit surprised that his wife was having an affair with my H. He already knew that something was wrong, but hadn't done any snooping to see what his wife was doing. I predict this is the case with your husband's affair. The OW husband knows something is wrong already. But, he doesn't have the information to protect his marriage from your husband's interloping.
Unwritten, maybe I havent explained this too well, this is all my husbands doing, he contacted her and listened to her story and convinced her he loves her and that they belong together, she is a very flawed person and is very very needy and believes he is her knight in shining armour. Even thou I should not have sympathy for her I do in a way, because I think she is a victim here too. She doesnt want to steal my husband, he wants her. I agree she is hurting her husband but I think she is afraid and embarassed by what she is doing and will be looking at another divorce. I dont want to be on her side believe me but this is not your usual affair, they are strongly pulled to each other by this first love they experienced together that was interrupted.
armymama, I dont think her husband would be suprised because he has been talking of moving out. If her husband feels starved of emotional love like I do he has to know something is not right.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 09:01 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
maybe I havent explained this too well


There is nothing more that you need to explain. In addition to Dr Harley's teachings, we understand full well what is happening because we see the same story play out over and over again on this forum.

We understand it very clearly.

The problem is that you think your situation is somehow different or unique or that these details make the advice different.

That's NOT the case. You MUST expose this if you want to save your marriage, period.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 09:05 PM
Listen, I've been in your spot. Not only for myself but I held my sister's hand step by step as she exposed her WH's affair.

It's hard, you're not going to want to do it, and you'll come up with all kinds of reasons why you don't need to (it won't work in my case, this is not physical, etc etc etc). We've heard it all before.

You need to set aside your emotional response ( and listen to what we, objective 3rd parties, are telling you you need to do.

Almost every person who comes here resists exposure. You need to push through that and do what is necessary to end this affair or there will be NO marriage to save.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
armymama, I dont think he would be suprised because he has been talking of moving out. If he feels starved of emotional love like I do he has to know something is not right.


You need to wake up here and ACT. Once he moves out, it's going to be very very hard to save this.

Honestly, we don't care about him feeling starved of emotional love or any other fogbabbly he's been spewing. That's normal for a wayward. Please don't waste your time or ours feeling like you need to post about his fogbabble.
I did not think the affair was particularly unique but the first love, lost love part might be something to be considered. The bond between these two is very strong. My husband has told me the first time he saw her 16 months ago it was all over. I dont think they ever resolved their earlier breakup and are trying to relive or revive it or whatever. They were kept apart by parents strong disapproval and never forgot each other. After their breakup she married right away to someone else. I have woke up, I will probably expose it but I have a very bad feeling about that. I kept hoping they would finish this up and realize it wasnt meant to be.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 09:45 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I am pretty darn sure no one is going to thank me for exposing this affair especially my husband. He is very very protective of her and they are extremely worried her husband will find out and go to extreme measures that he does not. I have one son who is 23 and he knows what is going on and right now does not think much of his father, but their relationship is not that great. My sister and husband know as do other members of my family. I beleive the other womens sister knows too. Frankly i am not sure her family would care if she has a 5th husband because they expect it.


You should expose to every person you mentioned here including the OW's family and friends via facebook and her pastor. Did you read the exposure thread?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 09:53 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have woke up, I will probably expose it but I have a very bad feeling about that. I kept hoping they would finish this up and realize it wasnt meant to be.


Lets say the affair did end, he will always have a wayward mind and is very likely to have another affair because it was never exposed. I will also add that you make yourself a very unattractive alternative by hanging around waiting for crumbs. That is not the kind of thing most men go for. Staying in touch with this abusive, sick situation also greatly impairs your mental health and can lead to psychosomatic illnesses. Many women have nervous breakdowns, making themselves even less attractive.
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I did not think the affair was particularly unique but the first love, lost love part might be something to be considered. The bond between these two is very strong. My husband has told me the first time he saw her 16 months ago it was all over. I dont think they ever resolved their earlier breakup and are trying to relive or revive it or whatever. They were kept apart by parents strong disapproval and never forgot each other. After their breakup she married right away to someone else. I have woke up, I will probably expose it but I have a very bad feeling about that. I kept hoping they would finish this up and realize it wasnt meant to be.
I have struck out all of the fogbabbly stuff as Suzie was describing for you. All of us know that none of that should be considered. I have left only the pertinent info from your post.

ALL of us had a very bad feeling about exposing. It is HARD. We know that. We will be here and help you through any fallout (for many of us the fallout was less than we had imagined). But we can't help you to even get to square ONE at healing your marriage until you expose and kill off the affair.

You came here asking if we could help. We are trying to help. Do you indeed want help, or are you telling us that you feel so sorry for them that you actually want to hand over your husband to the OW?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 10:00 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
but I have a very bad feeling about that.


What exposure requires is setting aside your feelings and doing what logical, objective 3rd parties (Dr Harley and forum members who have seen his advice work over and over and over again) are telling you is your best chance.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 10:02 PM
Originally Posted By: BlindSighted2013
ALL of us had a very bad feeling about exposing. It is HARD.


Exactly.

What you should feel bad about is the fact that this affair is entrenched to the point that your WH is ready to move out.

Your window to end this affair is closing.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/28/16 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I did not think the affair was particularly unique but the first love, lost love part might be something to be considered. The bond between these two is very strong. My husband has told me the first time he saw her 16 months ago it was all over. I dont think they ever resolved their earlier breakup and are trying to relive or revive it or whatever. They were kept apart by parents strong disapproval and never forgot each other. After their breakup she married right away to someone else. I have woke up, I will probably expose it but I have a very bad feeling about that. I kept hoping they would finish this up and realize it wasnt meant to be.


It's called living in fantasy land. Expose and destroy the fantasy aspect. Make them live in the real world.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 12:08 AM
wifeinstride, I hope you are not posting because you are now exposing this affair to the OWH.

You want the affair to end and keep your marriage intact then you must expose this affair.

You have not been able to kill this affair because you have not exposed the affair to the OWH.

You are like the person that screams the vampire is going to kill me yet you refuse to drive a stake into the vampire's heart because you do not like getting blood on your hands.

Lady you are in a fight to the death for your marriage and you refuse to use the only thing that will kill the affair. Exposure.
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
IIt probably is me, because believe it or not our marriage right now is so improved in every way, and I know that sounds weird because of what he is doing, but it is. I am sure I will get flack for that comment because how can it be improved with what he is doing but it is and I guess i am living on those scraps and saying its ok when its not.
I have been thinking about you, wife, and I wanted to come back to acknowledge this post.

I DO understand what you mean with this statement because prior to my H's long term affair, we had a marriage of constant highs and horrible lows. We loved each other to abandon...or we were fighting to the death. We did not previously know how to solve conflicts!

We've now been married for 35 years, and I GET it that things do seem to settle down a bit after the long term affair starts.

The trouble is that they settle down because SHE is meeting some needs, and you are meeting others. So the fighting stops, he stops caring if you meet "those" needs, and he appreciates the needs that are "yours" to meet at home.

UGH. I hate even writing that, but I do get it. It does NOT have to be like this though! In a passionate marriage, couples learn to meet each other's needs in the way that each both desires! MB can teach you how to accomplish it. Do you want this?

Your husband has STOPPED trying with you, and gone to where it is "easy" to get those certain needs met. On top of that, he and you are both fine with it because it means less strife and more calm at home. frown

It does not have to be this way!!! Marriage Builders taught us to meet each other's needs WITHOUT fighting! We have conflict, we stop and discuss and present options, we negotiate, and we both get our needs met. This did take us some time to learn, but it is SO much better for both of us!

36 years of marriage is nothing to sneeze at. YOU and your HUBBY have been in it together long term. If you know that you can't get past this, we get it, and we will also help you with that. But your posts aren't sounding to us like you are done. Are you?
We have had conflict in our marriage but not fighting. But you are right when you say he is getting a need met by her, a very important one. She listens to him everyday day and talks his ear off and he talks to her and they tell each other how much they love each other and how connected they are. They think they are soulmates etc. HER TELLS HER EVERYTHING. And then he comes home to me. I have to be very careful what I say because it goes right to her. I am quiet and introverted and scientific. Shes blond I am dark. She is feminine and cries alot and needs him and of course I quess I am not and dont. I try to be myself and not compete because I know I am a kind and loving and smart and loyal person. The problem is I am probably at fault for the distance in our marriage and after listening to them they have something he and I never had. He has never talk to me like he does with her or put me first like he does with her or even treated me like that. But yet he has this obligation to me and he loves me and told me he has made a mistake and is sorry he is hurting me. What if this is his real chance for true love and happiness and she was the right person all along and they have found each other again. This is my true problem. He has not asked for a divorce or to leave, but he does not want to work on our marriage. He is conflicted. I am conflicted and hurt. He has always been very selfish and this is his most selfish act but I love him and want to try and save our marriage. I have pointed out many times if you love each other so much why are you not trying to be together harder, like I am trying to work on us. You are right when you say 36 years of marriage is nothing to sneeze at. Perhaps it is just me who is the problem. Thank you one and all for your advice. I greatly appreciate all the advice.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 03:12 AM
Your marriage can be saved if you will stop enabling his affair. We can show you and your husband how to have a romantic, passionate marriage. That will never happen as long as the OW is hanging around.

Your husband is not "conflicted" at all. He is having a great time. At your expense with your approval.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 03:13 AM
And no she is not the "right person," whatever that means. That is foolish fog babble.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 12:35 PM
Quote:
I think she is a victim here too.


Stop. Just stop. This woman is no victim. She has poor boundaries and is letting a married man meet her needs while being married herself.

Quote:
and they tell each other how much they love each other and how connected they are.


She is destroying your M and you are calling her a victim. I'm sitting here shaking my head, totally disgusted by this troll that has invaded your M, hoping to heck you're going to get your ire up and make the decision to put this troll in her place.

Time to shine some light on this troll by exposing her to those that have influence on her. She needs to disappear from your lives.

Don't even get me started on your H.

Quote:
I did not think the affair was particularly unique but the first love, lost love part might be something to be considered.


Nope. This isn't anything anyone needs to consider. He married you, made a commitment as did you. Time to honor your commitments.

wife, you need to educate yourself on what everyone here is telling you. If you follow this program you and your H can have what it is that you think these two fogged out waywards have. Only what you'll have will be real and will be indestructible. Not some fairy tale nonsense about first love crud. You and him will provide each other with the things that create love and will avoid the things that cause you to lose love. You'll become an interdependent couple with healthy boundaries. You'll spend your days providing each other with extraordinary care. A term that Dr Harley uses often, a term I just love hearing and love receiving for myself. We all want that for you.

Please stop the navel gazing and capitulating and get working the program. Anything short of that then you're wasting these people's time. They are sitting at the ready, ready to help you execute the plan that has a great chance at saving and creating a fantastic marriage.

You need to start today.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Unwritten, maybe I havent explained this too well, this is all my husbands doing, he contacted her and listened to her story and convinced her he loves her and that they belong together, she is a very flawed person and is very very needy and believes he is her knight in shining armour. Even thou I should not have sympathy for her I do in a way, because I think she is a victim here too. She doesnt want to steal my husband, he wants her. I agree she is hurting her husband but I think she is afraid and embarassed by what she is doing and will be looking at another divorce. I dont want to be on her side believe me but this is not your usual affair, they are strongly pulled to each other by this first love they experienced together that was interrupted.


Heres the thing, there is no way you can explain this that a RATIONAL person would 'understand.' You are in your own fog too. We understand that, and many of us have been there. We are all volunteers who are spending our own free time posting to you because we have been there, and have had MB change our marriages and lives. We care about you and don't want to see you continue to make mistakes that will cost you your marriage, and your mental and physical health. But ultimately, it comes down to your own free will and whether you will take the help or remain in your fog of denial and enabling. I wonder, how is 'plan wifeinstrife' working for you?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 04:23 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Unwritten, maybe I havent explained this too well, this is all my husbands doing, he contacted her and listened to her story and convinced her he loves her and that they belong together, she is a very flawed person and is very very needy and believes he is her knight in shining armour. Even thou I should not have sympathy for her I do in a way, because I think she is a victim here too. She doesnt want to steal my husband, he wants her. I agree she is hurting her husband but I think she is afraid and embarassed by what she is doing and will be looking at another divorce. I dont want to be on her side believe me but this is not your usual affair, they are strongly pulled to each other by this first love they experienced together that was interrupted.


Nobody here will ever see this OW as a victim. As long as she has a brain and free will, she is choosing to be in this affair.

But since you, in your fog, cannot see that she may be at fault here and is a huge enemy to your marriage, I am going to try a different approach.

Affairs are weapons of mass destruction. And I don't mean just to YOU and your marriage. This OW is destroying her own life and marriage too. Likewise, it is very common for the people involved in an affair to become depressed and suffer emotionally and physically. I would say this is especially true if someone is 'religious' and has a strong moral background (although I don't actually believe that is the case here). Lying and cheating, leading an immoral life, feels BAD, and makes you feel BAD about yourself (as it should, of course.) This is the life OW is leading. She is making choices that are destroying her life, her marriage, her family, her mental and physical health. And you are enabling her to do this! You think you are doing her some kind of favor by not exposing because she is a 'victim' but you are not doing her a favor at all. It is the same as watching an addict shoot up heroin and just letting it happen because you don't want to seek help and hurt their reputation or upset them. You are not helping them at all.

Exposing this affair is the right thing to do. Period. If you choose to enable it and keep their little secret for them, specifically from the OW's betrayed husband who has no idea what's going on, that is just cruel and wrong. (And, it will lead to one of two things: the end of your marriage, or a lifetime of death by a thousand cuts as you continue to watch your husband oogle over another woman from the sideline.)
Posted By: Prisca Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 05:06 PM
Quote:
I dont want to be on her side believe me but this is not your usual affair, they are strongly pulled to each other by this first love they experienced together that was interrupted.

And that is different from every other affair .... how??

The majority of affair partners feel a strong pull towards each other. That is why they are willing to risk losing everything (family, home, jobs) just to be with their affair partner.

This affair is very much run-of-the-mill. There is nothing special here.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 05:24 PM
wife, I say this with kindness, but the only thing unique here is the level of denial and fog we see from YOU. As you can see from these responses, we are alarmed. We don't typically see spouses that enable to this degree. The affair is very garden variety, they are all the same; it is your reaction that is very unique.......and alarming.

Instead of fighting for your marriage you seem to be protecting the AFFAIR, at your own expense.
Unwritten, I want to thank you for you post. What you have said is making the most sense to me. I see that she is destroying her life and her marriage, and so is my husband which hurts me. They are both making this choice and I am enabling it and not doing them any favors. I have been doing alot of thinking over this and I know she is not a victim. I would like help exposing this to her husband.I feel he does deserve to know as she will not tell him like my husband told me. I do not feel comfortable calling her husband as I am not sure what number to call anyway. He does have a facebook page and I could private message him. I could write him but I am sure she would see that first. Do you have any suggestions for wording this message?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I would like help exposing this to her husband.


The husband has to be the FIRST exposure target of MANY exposure targets. You can't just expose to one target and then stop. If your baby had a horrible infection would you take a teeny drop of penicillin and then stop or would you take the full dose and kill the infection? If you take a teeny drop, it will achieve nothing other than to make the infection come back with a vengeance. You need to be more strategic here and expose the affair so widely that it kills it off.

Did you read my exposure thread to get tips on who to expose to and what to say?

Once you expose it you must DEMAND that your H never see or speak to this woman again. NEVER. We will give you a checklist of extraordinary precautions to ensure this never happens again.

Quote:
I feel he does deserve to know as she will not tell him like my husband told me. I do not feel comfortable calling her husband as I am not sure what number to call anyway. He does have a facebook page and I could private message him. I could write him but I am sure she would see that first. Do you have any suggestions for wording this message?


I would CALL or visit him and tell him all about the affair. You need to get ahold of him in a way that the OW does not see and block you. For example, if you call his house, you have to disguise your # using *67. Do you know where he works? Can you call him at work and go meet him?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 05:38 PM
]
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I do not feel comfortable calling her husband as I am not sure what number to call anyway.


Our goal is to save your marriage using strategic and effective tactics. It is not to make you feel comfortable. That should be the LEAST of your concerns in this situation.
Thats tough because when I do this my husband is going to be so mad. He is very protective of her and what she has been through in her life. I have to be ready to handle this situation.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Thats tough because when I do this my husband is going to be so mad. He is very protective of her and what she has been through in her life. I have to be ready to handle this situation.


We are not giving advice to avoid your husbands anger at all cost. Your marriage can survive his anger. Of course he will be angry, the same way a falling down drunk gets angry when you take the bottle away. The same way a baby gets mad when you take their candy away. You do it anyway because it is the right thing to do.

Does it bother you just a little bit that he is protective of her and NOT YOU??? You are his WIFE, you need to start believing you are worth more than this and fight.

Don't trickle expose, meaning one or two people today, another tomorrow, and so on. It is not nearly as effective and will perpetuate the fallout over a period of time. DO IT ALL AT ONCE and then you will only have to deal with the fallout once.

If he calls you spewing about how his poor little OW is destroyed because of exposure, you can remind him that any consequence OF HER AFFAIR is due to the AFFAIR, and that you are just telling the truth. If she is the one true love in his life and they are so perfect together, why would they care one iota if the world knew about this great love affair? (Answer: because it is just a nasty garden variety back alley affair and they are ashamed of it)
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 06:20 PM
You can do this wifeinstrife, but you need to grow a backbone here and believe you are worth more than this.

I can tell that the last 16 months has already taken a toll on your emotional well being. You are more concerned about your cheating husband being 'angry' with you than you are about fighting for your marriage, doing what is right, or even your own health. This is why Dr Harley does not recommend more than 3 weeks of a woman being in this situation, because it does so much emotional and physical damage. And you have been doing this for over a year!
unwritten, This has taken a terrible toll on me and I want it to stop and I do have a backbone. Otherwise I would not still be trying to save my marriage. I am very concerned about my husband and I want to fight for him, but I wanted him to be responsible for what he has done himself. He has in the last 12 months watch me go downhill emotionally and physically and it doesnt seem to bother him at all. I was really hoping he would realize what he is doing and man up and stop himself. I have repeatedly told him to stop, I have moved out, talked like crazy, and still they keep going. I wanted this to come from him but it is not going to. I wanted her to see what she is doing but she is not going to either. As always it is up to me. I am going to expose them but I will need help.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 07:04 PM
I am glad to hear. You will find that after the dust settles, exposing was the best thing you could have done.

We are here to help you!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 07:08 PM
You are right that when you are dealing with a wayward spouse, it is up to YOU to fight the affair, and take care of yourself.

Your WH has not taken ending his affair seriously because you have not taken it seriously. You have enabled it for over a year, and if you moved out, then you must have moved back in even though the affair continued. It is time for you to take it seriously, and that starts with exposure.

Dr Harley has a plan to fight infidelity that has been devised from his 40+ year experience dealing with affairs. He knows what he is doing and the posters on this board can attest to that. I am glad to hear you are ready to follow a plan!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Thats tough because when I do this my husband is going to be so mad. He is very protective of her and what she has been through in her life. I have to be ready to handle this situation.


Exactly. He will be furious when you interfere with his affair. But keep in mind that our goal is to save your marriage, not to avoid his anger at all cost. Your marriage can recover from his temporary anger, it can't recover from an ongoing affair.

When he comes at you in anger, you should simply respond that you are sorry he is angry, but you will no longer hide or tolerate his affair with "John's wife." Tell him you DEMAND he end all contact immediately or he will need to move out.

you don't fight, argue or allow him to bait you. If he attacks you verbally, then just leave the house.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
unwritten, This has taken a terrible toll on me and I want it to stop and I do have a backbone. Otherwise I would not still be trying to save my marriage. I am very concerned about my husband and I want to fight for him, but I wanted him to be responsible for what he has done himself. He has in the last 12 months watch me go downhill emotionally and physically and it doesnt seem to bother him at all. I was really hoping he would realize what he is doing and man up and stop himself. I have repeatedly told him to stop, I have moved out, talked like crazy, and still they keep going. I wanted this to come from him but it is not going to. I wanted her to see what she is doing but she is not going to either. As always it is up to me. I am going to expose them but I will need help.


We will be happy to help you. We will be right here alongside you guiding and supporting you.

The reason he did not stop is because he is addicted. In order to understand his mindset, you have to understand and equate him to a falling down drunk. A falling down drunk never stops until FORCED to sober up. It is the same with an affair. You must use drastic measures to get your husband to sober up. The only thing that will work is exposure.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 07:20 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have repeatedly told him to stop, I have moved out, talked like crazy, and still they keep going.


Exposure is no guarantee, but it gives you the BEST chance at saving your marriage. If he won't end ALL contact, you have to ask him to move out immediately. If you stay in contact with him under these conditions, it will greatly harm your emotional health. You probably already have some physical problems due to this terrible situation.
Yes I have suffered physically and actually spent a week in the hospital due to it. He operates his business from our home which is the reason I moved out the first time and not him. Financially he needs to operate this business and be home, it would be hard to make the leaving stick if we want to stay afloat financially. Already we are suffering because of all the time he takes to talk with her and not get his work done. Is there any other choice? That is why I moved back because of money, to keep an apt was too expensive. I have now realized he wont stop this he is addicted to her, which I suspected all along.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 10:50 PM
Who is on your exposure list?

When will you be exposing?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/29/16 11:19 PM
It is time to move to a paradigm shift and start thinking about divorce if he won't immediately end his affair. There will be no more "we" when it comes to financial issues in a divorce. Instead of thinking short term, you need to start thinking long term. In a divorce, where would he live? How would that be managed? Most judges will not make a woman leave her home, especially when there is infidelity and cruelty involved.

Quote:
Yes I have suffered physically and actually spent a week in the hospital due to it.


I am not saying this to scare you, but it is very common for women to have nervous breakdowns when dealing with affairs for very long. Dr Harley makes his female clients separate after THREE WEEKS. You have been dealing with this much longer. I think it is a blessing you showed up here on this forum.

So, you need to think about how you will separate. Evne if you have to leave yourself for awhile and then file to get your home back in the future. It won't be short term if he won't end his affair. It may be up to 2 years. If his affair doesn't end in 2 years, Dr Harley would suggest you move to divorce.
We have talked several times about divorce and separation. we live in a 50/50 state so all must be divided between us. I have talked with a lawyer. I actually carry all the insurance and all our retirement. As I said he is self employed and has no retirement or savings. I have left for 4 months and all that did was allow them to talk and see each other easier, and it is very difficult to maintain no contact as I handle all personal and business finances, so I had to return to my beautiful home all the time and that was terrible. It takes both of us to maintain our home etc. That is part of the problem we need to sell our house. The only way I get through this is to set a goal to make it thru each day. I have been formulating a plan for exposure. He does not want a divorce and I really dont either. I had hope that by working on our marriage things would get better and he would stop going to her. I know he cant stop on his own and I know I am a coward. The problem is he loves us both and wont choose because he is going to hurt someone. He knows he is hurting me too right now. I need the help to end this one way or another.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 12:00 PM
wife, you should focus 100% on a comprehensive exposure. This may kill the affair or hasten its death. However, if he won't end the affair immediately, you MUST separate from him. You can't stay in such a dangerous situation because it is toxic to your mental and physical health.

No couple is perpetually chained to one another so you will need to start to thinking about how to separate everything.

Quote:
The problem is he loves us both and wont choose because he is going to hurt someone.


He HAS chosen. He has chosen you both. He doesn't care that it hurts you.

Will you prepare to expose the affair this weekend? Can you take the time today putting together an exposure list?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 03:24 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
We have talked several times about divorce and separation. we live in a 50/50 state so all must be divided between us. I have talked with a lawyer. I actually carry all the insurance and all our retirement. As I said he is self employed and has no retirement or savings. I have left for 4 months and all that did was allow them to talk and see each other easier, and it is very difficult to maintain no contact as I handle all personal and business finances, so I had to return to my beautiful home all the time and that was terrible. It takes both of us to maintain our home etc. That is part of the problem we need to sell our house. The only way I get through this is to set a goal to make it thru each day. I have been formulating a plan for exposure. He does not want a divorce and I really dont either. I had hope that by working on our marriage things would get better and he would stop going to her. I know he cant stop on his own and I know I am a coward. The problem is he loves us both and wont choose because he is going to hurt someone. He knows he is hurting me too right now. I need the help to end this one way or another.


None of this changes any of the advice on this site to bust up the affair and save your marriage.

Nothing that you tell us to try to make us think your situation or your husband is different than any other person who posts here will not sway us.

You need to decide whether you are going to follow the advice here that has helped thousands upon thousands of people or just keep spinning your wheels doing what you've been doing which is the most likely to lead to divorce and damaged health for yourself.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 03:25 PM
You are currently in Plan C, which is most likely to lead to divorce and a nervous breakdown.

We cannot help you with Plan C.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 06:30 PM
There are women who have separated from their WH and gone completely dark, women who are stay at home moms with no income, and with several little children to coordinate. I don't think any reason you gave to show that you can*not* be separated or divorced from your husband can top that, do you? If they can do it, so can you. If your WH finally leaves you for OW, or her BH finds out about the affair and kicks her out and your WH moves her in, then what. Would you stay in that situation? Would you just keep hanging out to take care of business matters? No. Like many many women before you, you would find a way to separate your lives and move on.

This may not be an issue because exposure could potentially KILL the affair immediately. There is no guarantee but it is your best shot.

If exposure does not kill the affair, which is possible since it has been enabled for so long now, then you need to prepare to separate. You cannot live in these circumstances. I don't know why anyone would want to live in these circumstances.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 06:51 PM
Let me tell you how this is going to play out if you choose not to expose. Because I know you are focused on how it may play out if you DO. If you don't here is what will happen:

1) WH will eventually just up and leave you for OW. This will happen because you will become such a basket case you will become very unattractive and will eventually be unable to meet the needs that are your job to meet due to your mental and physical health issues. You hanging around as his second option is already unattractive.


2) WH will continue to have OW and you, indefinitely. Think of that, indefinitely. We have seen affairs that go on for decades! Certainly, it will be a death of a thousand cuts for you to live this way, and you will shave years off your life.

3) WH will agree to end the A. But since you set the bar so low for yourself, you will have absolutely no leverage to require anything from him. Realize that even if and when an affair ends, there is recovery. Life doesn't just go back to normal, there is years of building back the love and trust that was lost. It can be done, but only if you follow certain steps to not only make your marraige affair proof, but also rebuild it into the best marriage it has ever been. If you tell your WH to never have contact with OW again, what would make him think you were serious? After years of enabling the affair and not setting any boundaries for yourself, what are you going to do now? Of course he will try to do the right thing, but he will have NO ACCOUNTABILITY and neither will she, and you will have no leg to stand on because he will know you are just going to hang around no matter what. So he WILL contact her again. The affair could go back and forth for the rest of your life. It has happened. Again, in this scenario, whether the affair is over and there is no recovery, or it is on again/off again for years, it will be a death of a thousand cuts for you and will shave years off your life.

Here's another set of options:

1) You expose far and wide. The affair ends THAT DAY. You give your list of requirements for YOU to stay in the marriage. He meets them. You rebuild and have a great marriage and put this behind you.

2) You expose far and wide. The affair ends that day. But he refuses to meet your requirements and you separate. He decides 'wow she is serious! I have to make up for this or she is actually going to leave me!' and then he decides to meet your requirements. He will know that you are a strong serious woman who is done taking his crumbs, and that he needs to step up or you are gone! He will, and you rebuild a great marriage.

3) You expose far and wide. The affair doesn't end. You separate and protect your love for him and your physical and mental health, while he finds out that OW can't really meet ALL of his needs, because now you are not there meeting the ones that you used to. What??? OW isn't actually perfect? Now she doesn't look as good! You give your list of requirements and decides to meet them. You rebuild a great marriage.

4) You expose far and wide. The affair doesn't end. You separate and protect yourself through a dark Plan B. He is just too wayward minded to end it with OW, and the affair never ends. Or it ends years later, after you have moved on. You have new and better things in your life. You don't even think about WH or OW anymore because you are too busy in your new kayaking club. Life is good.

Its your choice which set of options you want to choose from.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 06:54 PM
You need to read this and listen to the clips in here.
BSs......Plan C is not a Plan
I like you unwritten!!!!!! especially the kayaking club. I would love that. In the back of my mind if I expose this that will just make it easier for them to be together because her husband will leave her, which is what she is afraid of. Her husband is no coward I am thinking as this has happen to him before, he is just a man in the dark. I have been very committed to saving my marriage, that is why I am still trying. I have to be truly convinced an exposure is the right move. I will gather my list of exposures over the next few days. Anyone ever think I keep doing this because maybe I really want my marriage to end? I sure have thought of this...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I like you unwritten!!!!!! especially the kayaking club. I would love that. In the back of my mind if I expose this that will just make it easier for them to be together because her husband will leave her, which is what she is afraid of.


If that is the case, do you think it is right to keep him in the dark about his life like he is a pet? You have basically become an accessory to the crime by keeping this secret for the OW. Do you understand the moral ramifications of that?

And secondly, lets say that he does kick her out once you expose and your H moves in with his girlfriend. That would be one of the BEST THINGs to happen to the affair because the fantasy will be destroyed quickly. Nothing worse for an affair than exposure to reality.

Exposure is the right move. You need to listen to people who are experienced in this. It gives you the BEST chance of recovery in an ethical way, whether that recovery is with your husband or without him.

Quote:
Anyone ever think I keep doing this because maybe I really want my marriage to end? I sure have thought of this...


No, I think you keep doing this because you are enabler who allows fear to warp her thinking.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 08:36 PM
You will have ALOT of explaining to the OW's husband about why you helped them trick him. I don't think you are a mean person, but hiding an affair from the victim is CRUEL.

If his bookkeeper was stealing his money would you use these same excuses to not warn him?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 08:39 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Her husband is no coward I am thinking as this has happen to him before, he is just a man in the dark.


Why is this OK with you? Are you a cruel woman?

If you saw a thief robbing your neighbors house while they were not home, would you call and tell them? Or just leave them in the dark?

There is nothing more I can say to urge you to do the right thing. It is your choice to make here.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 09/30/16 08:40 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
You will have ALOT of explaining to the OW's husband about why you helped them trick him. I don't think you are a mean person, but hiding an affair from the victim is CRUEL.

If his bookkeeper was stealing his money would you use these same excuses to not warn him?


Cross post.

At least we are consistent! smile
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
In the back of my mind if I expose this that will just make it easier for them to be together because her husband will leave her, which is what she is afraid of.

Read older threads of betrayed spouses. None of them ever wrote they wished they never exposed. A lot of them wrote they wished they exposed sooner. Even if your marriage can't be saved, you can still save your sanity.
Ok I have just found out they are planning to take a ride together tomorrow while I am at work and she is off and I think her husband is at work till noon. I most certainly am not a mean person, that is why I dont do the exposure. It is going to ruin many lives all because of my husbands and her mistake, not mine. I plan to have evidence of what they are doing to show her husband. My husband is being extremely careful with his second phone right now, I havent been able to find it in a few days. I wanted at least a few texts for her husband to see. I am just not sure anything is going to destroy this fantasy.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/01/16 02:25 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Ok I have just found out they are planning to take a ride together tomorrow while I am at work and she is off and I think her husband is at work till noon. I most certainly am not a mean person, that is why I dont do the exposure. It is going to ruin many lives all because of my husbands and her mistake, not mine. I plan to have evidence of what they are doing to show her husband. My husband is being extremely careful with his second phone right now, I havent been able to find it in a few days. I wanted at least a few texts for her husband to see. I am just not sure anything is going to destroy this fantasy.


Keeping their affair a secret is mean. You are helping them destroy 2 marriages. You are helping "ruin" their lives, yours and the OW's husband by enabling their affair. Helping cheaters hide their affair is not compassionate. There is nothing compassionate about enabling an affair.

We cannot help you if you can't follow a plan. Exposing to one person will not be effective.
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Ok I have just found out they are planning to take a ride together tomorrow while I am at work and she is off and I think her husband is at work till noon. I most certainly am not a mean person, that is why I dont do the exposure. It is going to ruin many lives all because of my husbands and her mistake, not mine. I plan to have evidence of what they are doing to show her husband. My husband is being extremely careful with his second phone right now, I havent been able to find it in a few days. I wanted at least a few texts for her husband to see. I am just not sure anything is going to destroy this fantasy.
oh my, I so beg to differ with you. It is mean to not expose, so let us not make facades.

It is certainly EASIER not to expose. It is the devil you know sort of thing to continue on choosing a paycheck and a house for a while while you kick the can down the road and hope that your husband will come to his senses.

But that is all serving YOUR interests and not your marriage. It is mean to the OW husband. It is enabling your husband. And it is a horrendous thing to do to yourself. Not judging. I did it too until I found this site. But it is Not the high road, believe me.
Is it me who is being selfish? I guess it is. The two of them continue this even though they know it hurts me. They lie to each other. My husband tells her everything about me including lies to make her think how horrible I am. They somehow justified everything while I laid in the hospital for a week very sick. I am not choosing this, but they have put me on this path. It is not easy to choose to not go bankrupt, get my son through college, pay the bills, etc, all the while being hurt by the one person who I loved and trusted for 38 yrs. I dont think I am taking the high road. But you are right Blindsighted it is a horrendous thing I am doing to myself. I feel terrible for my part of the marriage failure. I feel I have caused this by being a terrible wife. I have told this to my husband many times as we try to talk this out. I feel our marriage is over and has been for a long time and I know it is for him. Frankly, it is a no win situation. When I do this exposure it will be the end. He is completely and emotionally in love with this person and I dont believe it is a fantasy between the two of them. I want to save our marriage but what if it cant be saved?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/01/16 01:03 PM
What if it can't?

You will be just fine. You will buy a kayak and be just fine. If you choose to be that is, because while some of this is happening to you, the rest you are choosing. You are choosing to enable this and give your marriage the worse chance of survival. You are choosing to stick around and let WH and O W destroy you. While you are not choosing *and do not deserve* the affair, you are choosing how to handle it.

You are in control of your own life you know.

I am not going to post again until I see you take action. This is many pages of blogging and I do not have time for that. If you are not serious about saving your marriage or yourself, nobody here can help you. Dr Harley has a plan that is your best shot, yet you want to hang around and blog instead. Do you see how many posts MelidyLane has made? Do you think she has seen this a time or two? After all these pages you are still trying to convince us that your case is unique as if you are the expert here. I personally don't have time for that and don't want to stick around to see you enable this affair. Good luck to you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/01/16 01:05 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
When I do this exposure it will be the end. He is completely and emotionally in love with this person and I dont believe it is a fantasy between the two of them. I want to save our marriage but what if it cant be saved?


You have this backwards. If you don't do this exposure your marriage is over. AS you can see your own methods have not worked. We have saved our marriages using these tactics and are trying to help you.

I am sorry you choose to live like this. Enabling this horrible marriage wrecking affair is a terrible thing to do. You make yourself an accessory to the crime. By helping them hide their affair you become a volunteer, not a victim.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/01/16 06:20 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Her husband is no coward I am thinking as this has happen to him before, he is just a man in the dark.


I absolutely cringe when I see a BS here who hasn't/won't exposed to the OP's BS. That's about as screwed up and cruel as it gets.

You are victimizing the OW's BH. You are now a party to the crime.

Why? To help the affair. There's no way around that.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/01/16 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Frankly, it is a no win situation. When I do this exposure it will be the end. He is completely and emotionally in love with this person and I dont believe it is a fantasy between the two of them. I want to save our marriage but what if it cant be saved?


Do you think Dr Harley or we are ignorant to the challenges of dealing with a spouse who is an affair?

This is NO DIFFERENT than any other person who Dr Harley has helped in the past.

You need to just stop going around and around in circles to continue telling us why this won't work because none of your justifications make sense. Enabling the affair has not worked. Period. The affair continues and your health has suffered.

Again, we cannot and will not help you continue in your Plan C. And I have to warn you, the forum will lock your thread if you are not here to implement Marriage Builders.
I am very sorry to be wasting your time, I was just looking for someone who might have dealt with a first love/lost love, thinking this might be something different. Thank you for all your suggestions. I will not come back until I have expose their affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/01/16 10:00 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I am very sorry to be wasting your time, I was just looking for someone who might have dealt with a first love/lost love, thinking this might be something different. Thank you for all your suggestions. I will not come back until I have expose their affair.


WE have dealt with it a thousand times. You aren't wasting our time unless you won't take the advice. We are trying to help you save your marriage. We can't do that unless you take it as seriously as we are. Do you want what we have? Or not?
wifeinstrife, what you are telling us is the same exact thing that most betrayed spouses seem to buy into (at first). You are deep in the fog because you've been going through this for so long, but the solution is also the *exact* same for every.single.affair. Long term or short term, old love or new love. It simply has NOTHING to do with the road to recovery from an affair.

Have you read this? The Love Bank

****
DO NOT READ any further until you have gone and read that link above.

Did you read it?

It's as simple as this: Your husband's "first love" isn't the love of his life, YOU are!

But you see, he didn't put up boundaries around your marriage, and so that old girlfriend found a way in since she still had a positive lovebank balance in your husband's account.

Dr. Harley has said MANY times that relationships that do not die a natural death keep a positive Love Bank balance, which is the reason that logical people need to protect their marriages from ever having contact with old lovers.

It's as SIMPLE as this. All of this reasoning in your head (and blogging to us) doesn't change the simple facts. 1) Your husband didn't keep his boundaries up against an old lover 2) He had a garden variety run-of-the-mill affair 3) You two CAN recover from the affair and build a genuinely passionate marriage that is better than anything you could imagine 4) In order to do that, the affair must be killed (EXPOSURE).

You have waited a long while to take action. So please go back and re-read unwritten's post number 2887750. You HAVE to take action...sitting there paralyzed like a deer in the headlights stalling to make a decision is availing you of nothing...in fact, with your plan of action, your decision is going to soon be made for you. frown

Making no decision IS making a decision...the decision to give up all of your control.
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I am very sorry to be wasting your time, I was just looking for someone who might have dealt with a first love/lost love, thinking this might be something different. Thank you for all your suggestions. I will not come back until I have expose their affair.

Have dealt with it in a way I wish I never experienced. Nothing beautiful or special about it if it needs adultery to exist. It is rotten in the core. If you don't expose, people might see the sweet sugar coat that covers the rotten core. Expose, let light shine on it, so it can be seen for what it really is.

If you have an serious infection, you don't cover it with a pretty bandaid. You take antibiotics and fight the infection right away.

Again, there is nothing special about this big love love if it needs something stinky and rotten like adultery to exist.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/02/16 11:52 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I am very sorry to be wasting your time, I was just looking for someone who might have dealt with a first love/lost love, thinking this might be something different. Thank you for all your suggestions. I will not come back until I have expose their affair.


Not one affair is different. Not one affair is special.

How do we know this?

We have seen this. WW all do the same things. The same lies. The rewriting the history of the marriage to falsely justify the affair. The same addiction to their OM.

As already said: I have never seen a person sorry that they exposed their WW. Only regret that they did not expose right away.

Your reluctance to follow great advice from the best people on MB is mind blowing. All you do is keep making excuses to take action.

Instead you action is just to spin excuse after excuse as the OM keeps banging your WW.

I can not believe you are allowing the affair to live. I will not post anymore until you man up and take action.
Ok I exposed them. She immediately is running scared and broke off. He is very mad at me and I am the cause of interfering. He says it is over of which I dont believe right now. I did leave the house and stayed away. My guess is he will only last a day or two and then try to contact her. What is the next step because he is going to be very depressed and want to call or see her.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 01:30 PM
Before you move on to the next step can you tell us who you exposed to and what was said?

It is crucial that you do this exposure to everyone and everyone at the same time. A trickle exposure doesn't work.
Who all did you expose to wifeinstrife? Please detail all of the people here for us (not names, just for example her husband, parents, his parents, etc).

Why did you leave the house?

We will help you to make a plan for the next step after we know these answers. smile
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 01:36 PM
Although I commend you for taking a step in the right direction, I fear that you did not heed our many posts about doing a full exposure and doing it all at once.

I am going to say this one last time. This is a very entrenched affair. You have to do this right, it is your only hope. You cannot just do things willy nilly, expose to one person for instance, because you are too scared to do it the right way. You cannot let fear drive you or you will wind up divorced. You need to follow a plan and do it right.

So please tell us what you mean when you say you exposed it, so we can help you go from here with a plan.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 01:40 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
What is the next step because he is going to be very depressed and want to call or see her.


The next step after doing a FULL EXPOSURE is to demand he end his affair and provide him with a list of EP's to follow. These are YOUR requirements for staying in the marriage. The very first and most crucial step is to send a no contact letter to OW and commit to never having contact with her ever again. And if this means you have to move away to avoid her, then prepare to move.

If he is unwilling to do any of these things, you need to start preparing for a dark separation.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 01:41 PM
From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Ok I exposed them. She immediately is running scared and broke off. He is very mad at me and I am the cause of interfering. He says it is over of which I dont believe right now. I did leave the house and stayed away. My guess is he will only last a day or two and then try to contact her. What is the next step because he is going to be very depressed and want to call or see her.


To WHOM did you expose the affair? If this was just a little trickle exposure, I assure you the affair is not over. To whom and what did you say? Did you identify yourself?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 01:48 PM
wife, half measures will avail you nothing. This is a very entrenched affair and you cannot afford to cut any corners. Please describe what you did so we can help you get the most for your efforts.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 02:09 PM
We are here to hold your hand and guide you out of the fire. You just have to grab our hand and keep walking. Like Winston Churchill said "when you are going through hell, keep going."
I have done a really bad thing. This women is the light of his life and he feels she is a beautiful person inside and out. He has been searching for this love for his whole life. He will NEVER agree to demands of taking the phone and accountability, he thinks I am manipulating him and interfering and evil. I dont think it matters one bit that family and friends know. He will continue to protect her and try to call and text her. I look like the terrible person here for exposing her. She broke it off not him. If I would have waited they probably would have stopped at some point. He needed to make the decision to break it off, now he will pine for her forever. I have probably pushed them together more. I am going to need guiding out of the fire because now I cant even have a conversation with him. He avoids me and I have to find reasons to stay away.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 02:44 PM
I understand your concerns about her being the "light of his life." Heroin is the "light of life" for a heroin addict. Child molesting is the "light of his life" for a child molester. But would you help your spouse get heroin if he was addicted to heroin? You seem to want to glamorize a filthy affair for some reason. Your husband and his OW are wrecking 2 marriages and there is nothing glamorous or pretty about that.

Are you ready to follow a plan that will work now or are you going to keep enabling him? Because if it is the latter, I will not take my valuable time to try and help you.

Can you follow a plan?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:15 PM
Guidance: Expose their evil to the light. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. What he is saying is like mold spewing out of his mouth.

You are doing the right thing by telling everyone. You need support. Tell everyone so you have support and the truth will be known.
Do not listen to his abuse.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:16 PM
Spiritually beautiful women don't date married men.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:17 PM
Please tell us who you exposed to and how you exposed.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:19 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have done a really bad thing. This women is the light of his life and he feels she is a beautiful person inside and out. He has been searching for this love for his whole life. He will NEVER agree to demands of taking the phone and accountability, he thinks I am manipulating him and interfering and evil. I dont think it matters one bit that family and friends know. He will continue to protect her and try to call and text her. I look like the terrible person here for exposing her. She broke it off not him. If I would have waited they probably would have stopped at some point. He needed to make the decision to break it off, now he will pine for her forever. I have probably pushed them together more. I am going to need guiding out of the fire because now I cant even have a conversation with him. He avoids me and I have to find reasons to stay away.


All of us reasonable people are trying hard not to gag. None of this is true. This is an example of why you should not stay in an abusive affair situation for 16 months, because he has gaslighted you so long you have now taken over the job.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:24 PM
You should read Indiegirl's thread. It will give you courage.

Do not let him persuade you that you deserve this deplorable treatment.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:25 PM
I sent my little sister here in 2009 when she learned her WH was having an affair. She was very scared to expose - her WH was DEEP in the fog with his swolemate (like any other affair!) They were both sports lovers, etc, etc, this OW had all kinds of things in common with my sister's WH that they did not have.

MelodyLane and myself walked her through a COMPREHENSIVE exposure, it was done 100% correctly. She was terrified but she pushed through her fear and just did it. Sister's WH was so angry that he broke things in the house, packed his bag and moved out (but came back later) and repeatedly said he was DONE DONE DONE regardless of whether OW was in picture or not (we drove that ho off).

They ARE fully recovered today.

But my sister listened and followed exposure 100%.

I do not believe you do a thorough exposure - just by the sheer fact that you are not giving us details of what exactly happened.

We don't want to hear the fog babble. Tell us about the exposure so we can make sure it was done correctly. That's your best shot.

Talk fog babble = useless and complete waste of time.
Talk to us about exposure plan = best shot at killing this affair and saving your marriage.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:26 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I am going to need guiding out of the fire


You now have 13 PAGES of volunteers who are taking their own time to help you because we care about you, and because we have been through this and know what will work and what will NOT work, trying to guide you. But you are so beat down from this abusive situation that you cannot seem to think rationally or follow a plan.

We want to guide you out of this fire but you need to let us.

You still haven't even told us what happened, you just babbled fogbabble to us. We are rational people who don't care about fogbabble.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/04/16 03:27 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have done a really bad thing. This women is the light of his life and he feels she is a beautiful person inside and out. He has been searching for this love for his whole life. He will NEVER agree to demands of taking the phone and accountability, he thinks I am manipulating him and interfering and evil. I dont think it matters one bit that family and friends know. He will continue to protect her and try to call and text her. I look like the terrible person here for exposing her. She broke it off not him. If I would have waited they probably would have stopped at some point. He needed to make the decision to break it off, now he will pine for her forever. I have probably pushed them together more. I am going to need guiding out of the fire because now I cant even have a conversation with him. He avoids me and I have to find reasons to stay away.


This is a complete waste of our time and your time.

Tell us exactly who you exposed to and what you said and how (email, phone call etc).
These people should be on your exposure list:
OW husband, parents, siblings, children, church. On your husbands side it should be exposed to his parents and siblings, children, church. Your parents and siblings also need to know what you are up against.

If there are close friends who can influence them, you also expose to them.
Originally Posted By: goody2shoes
These people should be on your exposure list:
OW husband, parents, siblings, children, church. On your husbands side it should be exposed to his parents and siblings, children, church. Your parents and siblings also need to know what you are up against.

If there are close friends who can influence them, you also expose to them.

This ^^^

Who has been exposed to from this list?

And why did you leave the house?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/05/16 12:13 AM
Read this.
Please Explain Gaslighting
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/05/16 12:49 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have done a really bad thing.

Nope they did a really bad thing and you brought it to light.

Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
This women is the light of his life and he feels she is a beautiful person inside and out. He has been searching for this love for his whole life.

Gag. He should have been searching for this love with you. There is NO reason why he shouldn't try to find this with you. YOU ARE HIS WIFE!!!

Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
He will NEVER agree to demands of taking the phone and accountability
Then you have a choice to make. If he won't follow your plan then you best get away from him before this harms you any further than it already has.

Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
he thinks I am manipulating him and interfering and evil.

And you believe him??? He's gaslighting you. HE'S MARRIED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

He is manipulating you and he is evil. You are married and moving towards the behaviors of someone who is married. He's deep, deep into his fog and therefore marriage, obviously, means nothing to him at this point.

Wife, do you even understand the basic concepts of Dr Harley? I'm thinking you don't because you keep believing there is this thing called the Light of his Life and that it just magically happens. It doesn't. People fall in love with another person because that other person satisfies their emotional needs and avoids lovebusting them. Plain and simple that's how it works. He fell in love with her and she fell in love with him because they allowed each other to satisfy these emotional needs. Had you and him focused on meeting these needs and if he had any healthy boundaries he would never would have found these (light of his life, gag) feelings.

Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
If I would have waited they probably would have stopped at some point.
I highly doubt that. Again back to the concepts of a lovebank. They were meeting each other's needs. There was nothing there that was going to stop that. Their affair would have only became more entrenched.

Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
He needed to make the decision to break it off, now he will pine for her forever.

Not if you and him build the type of relationship we all know Dr Harley's plan can build. One day he will feel like you are the light of his life IF YOU FOLLOW THE PLAN.
HE DOESNT CARE IF HE IS MARRIED!!!!!!!! He wants what he wants and that has always been the way, something is always better then what he has. He wants her.
We don't really care what your husband wants, we want to help you get through this terrible ordeal.

If you exposed to everybody, it won't be so easy anymore to have a wife at home to wash his dirty laundary, cook his meal and make his bed, while he is committing adultery with his angelic mistress.

Do you want your marriage to recover? MB is your best chance to that. If you don't want your marriage to recover, MB is your best plan to personal recovery.

Can you tell who you exposed to and how?

If you haven't already, buy and read the book "Surviving an Affair".
An affair is terrible for your mental and physical health. Are you able to eat and sleep? If not, see your doctor.

Meanwhile, try to eat healthy (omega-3, veggies, no sugar) and take a walk outside every now and then. Some foods can help you a bit, bananas are rich in tryptophan, which might help you relax and/or sleep better.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/06/16 11:25 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
HE DOESNT CARE IF HE IS MARRIED!!!!!!!! He wants what he wants and that has always been the way, something is always better then what he has. He wants her.


Did you read our posts about exposure? Have you finished your exposures?
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/06/16 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
HE DOESNT CARE IF HE IS MARRIED!!!!!!!! He wants what he wants and that has always been the way, something is always better then what he has. He wants her.


wife,

To reiterate what has already been stated, we don't care what he wants or he thinks he wants. Nor should you. He's fogged out. Stop focusing on him and his thoughts. Focus on what you want and that is to either end this affair, recover your M OR move to Plan B and possible divorce.

Regardless if you are staying or not your first course of action was exposure which you claim to have done. Repeatedly you have been asked what your exposure was comprised of. Please answer that question before you do anything else.
Posted By: pokerface Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/06/16 01:59 PM

Wife,

You need to dig really deep and find the strength to take control of your own life.

No one can help you until you decide to step outside of your comfort zone and fight this evil. MB does not work if you won't pick up the tools.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/06/16 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
HE DOESNT CARE IF HE IS MARRIED!!!!!!!! He wants what he wants and that has always been the way, something is always better then what he has. He wants her.


Calm down.

It's really difficult to help when you ignore our posts.

Who did you expose to and in what manner?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/06/16 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: pokerface

Wife,

You need to dig really deep and find the strength to take control of your own life.

No one can help you until you decide to step outside of your comfort zone and fight this evil. MB does not work if you won't pick up the tools.


This.

You seem to have no strength left to even be rational or reasonable. To even recognize that we are trying to help you and respond to us. Either that or you are just being very rude, because many people are spending their own time trying to help you here.
Unwritten, I never meant to be rude. I really appreciate everyones advice. I cant stop their affair or his behavior. I was just looking for a way to figure out what to do. I realize I cant stop him or have control over his behavior. Thank you
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Unwritten, I never meant to be rude. I really appreciate everyones advice. I cant stop their affair or his behavior. I was just looking for a way to figure out what to do. I realize I cant stop him or have control over his behavior. Thank you


Did you want to follow the advice we gave you?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 12:31 AM
wife, it is very hard to believe you are serious when you ignore the advice we took the time to give you and then come back and ask for more advice. Are we more serious about your situation than you are?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 01:56 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I was just looking for a way to figure out what to do.


We gave you advice on what to do. We provided you with a plan of attack that would give you the best possibility of killing this affair and saving your marriage. A plan that was constructed by a clinical psychologist that has worked with infidelity for over 40 years. A plan that many of us used to kill affairs and/or restore our own marriages.

You not only chose to ignore our advice and ignore our questions, but continue to come back with short quips of irrelevant fog babble. This is keeping posters here, invested, still trying to help you. But it seems we are more serious about your marriage than you are and we are just wasting our time.

Come back when you are serious.
Unwritten, I can not follow your advice, I tried but they are very firmly entrenched. I have listened to alot of their conversations and they are meant for each other. I know you think i am in a fog but I am not. I have lived this way for 14 months and listen to them for a long time, our marriage was over a long time ago for him. I can not compete nor do I want to with this women, she is most likely the right person for him since high school. I believe I need to step out of the way and find a life for myself. He has never treated me like he does her, it is completely different with them, they are very open and loving with each other, something I have always wanted. I will not post again, I am sure your advice is sucessful with affairs of shorter duration, and that you have helped many couples. This first love lost love needs to be looked at differently I think because it is powerful stuff. I will think about asking for a divorce, in actuality I have thought all along he wanted me to do that, because he cant, Besides we are on her time table it seems while she gets rid of husband 4. You do not need to reply and this is my last post. Thank you again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 03:26 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Unwritten, I can not follow your advice, I tried but they are very firmly entrenched.


wife, you have not tried. You are refusing to follow the advice because you are very, very entrenched in your pattern of enabling. You are so fogged out that you are not able to put aside your emotions and follow a plan. There is nothing we can do for you unless that changes. Just know that you could have saved your marriage but are REFUSING to follow the advice.

If you decide to get serious about your marriage, let us know and we can help you. The longer you enable the affair the harder it will be to save your marriage, though. Thats all on you.

Quote:
This first love lost love needs to be looked at differently I think because it is powerful stuff.


This is a bunch of silly chick flick nonsense. You have no earthly idea what you are talking about. Best of luck to you...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 03:37 AM
Did you at the very least let her poor husband know?
Posted By: markos Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 06:14 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
This first love lost love needs to be looked at differently I think because it is powerful stuff.


Of course former lovers are powerful stuff, which is the reason Dr. Harley makes these recommendations. It needs to be treated exactly the way Dr. Harley recommends if you want to survive - because it is powerful stuff! What are you recommending be treated "differently"? Are you recommending that it be ignored? Are you recommending that it not be taken seriously?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/08/16 11:50 AM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Unwritten, I can not follow your advice, I tried but they are very firmly entrenched. I have listened to alot of their conversations and they are meant for each other. I know you think i am in a fog but I am not. I have lived this way for 14 months and listen to them for a long time, our marriage was over a long time ago for him. I can not compete nor do I want to with this women, she is most likely the right person for him since high school. I believe I need to step out of the way and find a life for myself. He has never treated me like he does her, it is completely different with them, they are very open and loving with each other, something I have always wanted. I will not post again, I am sure your advice is sucessful with affairs of shorter duration, and that you have helped many couples. This first love lost love needs to be looked at differently I think because it is powerful stuff. I will think about asking for a divorce, in actuality I have thought all along he wanted me to do that, because he cant, Besides we are on her time table it seems while she gets rid of husband 4. You do not need to reply and this is my last post. Thank you again.


Yes, you are in a fog wife, a very very deep one. This is the result of living with this for so long. I am giving advice based on the teachings of Dr Harley, who has been working with with infidelity for over 40 years. The advice is the same REGARDLESS OF THE NATURE OF THE AFFAIR. You think that you are some expert on this highschool sweetheart soulmate stuff, but you are no expert at all. Dr Harley however IS an expert, he has seen affairs just like this thousands of times. Yet you choose to ignore his proven advice because you are so fogged out.

This affair does not need to be handled differently, the advice is the same because the makeup of an affair is all the same regardless of how or where it started or how long it has gone on. However, the chances of recovery are less when it is very entrenched and has been ENABLED so long. That is the reason yours is likely to fail, not because these two are 'made for each other' but because you have enabled it so long. You have sat by and did absolutely nothing to keep your husband from making this terrible mistake, or to protect your marriage or yourself. Based on your lack of response, I am going to assume you have not even told the OW's poor husband what he is up against, which is selfish and cruel.

I am sorry you are at a point of being so weak you cannot follow a plan. I am sorry that you choose to continue enabling this affair instead of doing the right thing and exposing it. I am sorry that you are choosing to sit back idly while your world falls apart. Have you heard the phrase 'pray to God but row for the shore?' You are choosing to just sit in the boat feeling sorry for yourself while it sinks in the storm. We are trying to hand you the oars, we are telling you we have seen this sinking ship thousands of times and you CAN make it to shore but you have to row, and you are saying no you would rather just sit... Even if this affair breaks up on its own someday, and your WH decides to take you as his alternative, the fact that you did absolutely nothing to stand up for yourself or your marriage is not going to reflect well on you. And then you will ask nothing of him in recovery either and will have a death of a thousand cuts for the rest of your life while you sit idly by and be his second option. That would not be good enough for me, and I am sorry that is good enough for you because you deserve better.

Good luck to you, you are going to need it.

Come back if you are ever serious.
Unwritten, I have stood up for myself many many times. I am not the weak person you think I am. I strongly asked him stop several times over the past months of this affair. One of which led to him buying another phone and telling me he had quit talking and seeing her and he agreed to work on us. I was fooled for 3 months at which point I found out and that is when I moved out for 3 months. I have taken the advice of many people and nothing works with him. He has strongly told me if I ever tell anyone about it there would be serious complications, as her son is a gun owner and they are unsure of the sons reaction. I guess they are afraid he will shoot her. This women has had a terrible life and I know I shouldnt feel bad for her but I do. I have told my whole family about this affair and this is hard because they think the world of my husband and if anyone would have influence it would be them, and I have told 3 of his most influential friends but not the other womens husband. No one has any idea how to stop this. I even told our son who now thinks his father is a dog. It is ruining so many peoples lifes and I want to be able to move on. You are right though because even if the affair breaks up I will always be his second choice and would have been 12 months ago anyway and I know this so I may never be able to move past that anyway. My therapist told me my marriage was over months ago and still here I am. You are right in saying it is not good enough for me because I do deserve better and he knows it and knows he is being very cruel. But to me exposing her to her family seems wrong. Now that my family knows I have more support especially from my son. I would never claim to know more than Dr. Harley in anyway. I will think more over exposing to her husband. I am blocked from their phones etc. It wont be easy.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/09/16 06:56 PM
I don't think you are a weak person wife. What I think is that you have been in this traumatic situation for so long, with a wayward spouse who is gaslighting you and repeatedly rubbing his affair in your face. ANY WOMAN in that situation will suffer emotionally. This is precisely why Dr Harley advises women not to be in this situation for more than 3 weeks, because it is emotionally devastating to a woman. This situation has weakened you emotionally, intellectually, and likely physically. You have been brainwashed and are not thinking rationally anymore. That is what I think.

What has happened is that you have been brainwashed to believe all of his fogbabble, and now you are drinking the koolaid and passing it out to other people. I do not for a second think you *properly* exposed to anyone. When you come here and try to tell us fogbabble, about how this is different and they are soul mates blah blah blah, and we KNOW BETTER because we have seen this exact situation happen a thousand times before, I can guarentee that you passed out the exact same koolaid to your family and friends. We tell people to expose all at once so that the wayward doesn't have time to spin the story. That was not necessary here, because you have been so emotionally damaged by this long term affair rubbed in your face, that YOU spun the story. YOU once again, enabled the affair!

You are making many, many strategic mistakes here. We are all watching you crash and burn. But you want to learn the hard way instead of by taking advice from those of us who have been there, and know what works and what doesn't. It is very frustrating to watch.

It is also frustrating to know that there is a betrayed spouse out there, who knows there is something dramatically wrong in his marriage, yet doesn't know what. He doesn't know how to fight it, or even the truth about his life so he can make a decision. Yet YOU KNOW, and you choose to keep the dirty little secret. That's disgusting to me and every other betrayed spouse on here. It is not right or decent or respectable.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/09/16 06:58 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I have taken the advice of many people and nothing works with him.


You have taken the advice of many people who KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AFFAIRS. Yet you chose to NOT take the advice of a clinical psychologist who has specialized in affairs for over 40 years. Makes perfect sense!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/09/16 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
He has strongly told me if I ever tell anyone about it there would be serious complications, as her son is a gun owner and they are unsure of the sons reaction. I guess they are afraid he will shoot her.


Every single affair story has some deranged betrayed spouse or family member who will likely blow the town up if the affair is exposed.

This is not true. It is part of the gaslighting. It is how they are keeping you in control.

Here is the rational way of looking at this. If there actually was a deranged trigger happy son, would he not be responding negatively TO THE AFFAIR ? Wouldn't it be THE AFFAIR that upsets him, rather than some lady he doesn't know just telling the truth about her life? Who responds crazy to someone who tells the truth??? He would respond crazy TO THE AFFAIR. So why on earth, if this woman is his soul mate shmoopie, would your wonderful husband be HAVING AN AFFAIR if it was going to cause the death of the love of his life???

Because this isn't true. She may have an unstable son, she may not. But if this was a REAL threat, they would be more concerned about HAVING AN AFFAIR. Obviously, they are not concerned about that. They are giving you fogbabble reasons to keep you contained, to keep you in control. If this were really a possibility, it would be because of the affair, not because of you, which means they would be the ones who are creating this danger, NOT YOU. The affair, not the exposure.

There is no danger. This is a method to keep you in control, one that we see all the time here.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/09/16 07:37 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
No one has any idea how to stop this.


Um, except Dr Harley. You know the guy who runs this site? The one who wrote the best selling book "Surviving an Affair?" The clinical psychologist who has specialized in affairs for over 40 years? That guy.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/09/16 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
But to me exposing her to her family seems wrong.


What you are doing NOW is WRONG. Keeping the dirty little secret is WRONG. Lying to this man by omission, about something so crucial to his life, is WRONG. Letting your husband traipse around with his wife and wreck his marriage and life is WRONG.

What you are doing now is wrong, immoral, deceitful and cruel. You can spin this to your own self any way you want if it helps you feel better, but don't spin it to us. You will get no support here for keeping this a secret from this betrayed unsuspecting man.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Surviving an affair with a first love - 10/09/16 07:57 PM
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
Unwritten, I have stood up for myself many many times. I am not the weak person you think I am. I strongly asked him stop several times over the past months of this affair. One of which led to him buying another phone and telling me he had quit talking and seeing her and he agreed to work on us. I was fooled for 3 months at which point I found out and that is when I moved out for 3 months. I have taken the advice of many people and nothing works with him. He has strongly told me if I ever tell anyone about it there would be serious complications, as her son is a gun owner and they are unsure of the sons reaction. I guess they are afraid he will shoot her. This women has had a terrible life and I know I shouldnt feel bad for her but I do. I have told my whole family about this affair and this is hard because they think the world of my husband and if anyone would have influence it would be them, and I have told 3 of his most influential friends but not the other womens husband. No one has any idea how to stop this. I even told our son who now thinks his father is a dog. It is ruining so many peoples lifes and I want to be able to move on. You are right though because even if the affair breaks up I will always be his second choice and would have been 12 months ago anyway and I know this so I may never be able to move past that anyway. My therapist told me my marriage was over months ago and still here I am. You are right in saying it is not good enough for me because I do deserve better and he knows it and knows he is being very cruel. But to me exposing her to her family seems wrong. Now that my family knows I have more support especially from my son. I would never claim to know more than Dr. Harley in anyway. I will think more over exposing to her husband. I am blocked from their phones etc. It wont be easy.


You, ma'am, are an enabler. You only have yourself to blame for the sad state of your marriage. This could have been saved, but not if you choose to do nothing other than enable the affair.

In the meantime, you come here and waste our valuable free time that could be spent on helping those who are serious about saving their marriages. Why come here if you aren't serious?
Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
I strongly asked him stop several times over the past months of this affair.
Not a one of us here were able to kill an affair by strongly asking our spouse to stop. Dr. Harley advises us to expose the affair and then demand no further contact for life, and THEN if the spouse doesn't stop, he advises Plan B. Strongly asking doesn't work and we never insinuated that it did.

Originally Posted By: wifeinstrife
One of which led to him buying another phone and telling me he had quit talking and seeing her and he agreed to work on us. I was fooled for 3 months at which point I found out and that is when I moved out for 3 months.
Yes exactly. Which is why Dr. Harley tells us that we must expose. We are supposed to only tip our hand once we have our ducks in a row to make a thorough exposure. Otherwise, the wayward just takes the info, spins it to their own favor, and goes further underground to hide the affair.

I don't know why you continue to post the same fogbabble to us, we all respond with the same advice, and then you go and disappear again for a time.

Sixteen pages of posts, and NOTHING has changed. frown
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