Hello,
My spouse had an affair for 6 months, and I had decided to seek what was the reason he strayed, rather than quickly break our family apart. The affair finally ended 18 months ago and he has not seen her since. 5 months of it though, was happening right in front of me. It was extremely painful.

My problem is that for our 17 years of marriage before the affair, I did not meet his emotional needs. To be honest, this was a completely new concept to me. Not only did I not meet his needs, but I also had a angry outbursts, disrespectful words and I held all of my emotions inside... or as he says it "I live in my own head by myself".

He left her for me, but his pain is deep. He can not forget all of the years that I ignored him and said hurtful words, and he still sees me through those eyes. I feel like I am different and I am trying to meets his needs, but he says he feels I am exactly the same. He is withdrawn now, because it hurts too much when he gets his hopes up, that I will be able to meet his needs and live in "the real world" with him... and then I do something that is not thoughtful.. and he retreats. This has been our cycle for the past 18 months.

We both read his needs, her needs and we discussed our top 5 emotional needs for each of us... but my problem is that I still can't seem to meet his needs.

He says the absolute least, I need to 1, not treat him exclusively like a partner, and 2, meet his specific needs without him having to tell me what they are. If he has to tell me what they are, he feels like he is begging, and he'd rather not have me meet them then. He wants me to figure out new things that he didn't even know he wanted.

I am at a loss and feel we just go around in circles. Now he tells me that he doesn't even need me to meet his needs, he has lowered what he needs to live in this partnership with me.

I am going crazy... am I really that incapable of meeting my husband's needs? Or is what he is needing unrealistic in our marriage because he is looking at me through "the old me" glasses. He said he doesn't believe a word I say, because of how I was in our marriage all of the years prior to the affair.

The hard part is he had told me his affair partner met all of his emotional needs in the first instance they met... and that was the first time any woman had met his needs before. So now when I hear him say "I have lowered my standards, I don't have needs that need to be met by you"... I really hear "She met all of my needs, and you can't".

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Hello DRS, welcome to Marriage Builders. It sounds like he does a pisspoor job of meeting your needs, which is why you have had a hard time meeting his needs. Women have no problem meeting the top emotional needs of men, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment when their own needs are successful met. It doesn't sound like he has done a very good job over the duration of your marriage.

Secondly, having an affair is the most egregious act a spouse can commit against his spouse. It is on the same level as physical assault. As such, Dr. Harley is adamant that the wayward spouse give the betrayed spouse just compensation. Has your husband given you just compensation? Please check this out: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

What is your husband doing to make you happy? It doesn't sound like very damn much.

A woman's top intimate emotional needs are affection and conversation. How is he doing meeting your needs?

Hi MelodyLane,

Thanks for your thoughts.. yes, absolutely. My needs are not being met.. and they weren't before the affair either. I was so wrapped up in my own head before the affair(and for most of our whole marriage), that I didn't even realize that 1, I actually had needs and 2, that they weren't being met. (This sounds ridiculous when I say this now!!) Now I realize that of course I had needs, and how I responded to them not being met was angry outbursts and disrespectful communications.

The problem is now he says he knows exactly how to meet my needs (based on how he met hers during the affair, not that he has actually ever met mine). He said he can meet my needs in a second, but he knows I can't meet his, because it is almost 2 years post affair and I still haven't met them. He refuses to have a " one way street" as he says of me having my needs met, when I don't give a damn about his.

The reason he committed adultery is because he has poor boundaries around women. He allowed another woman to meet his needs. Unless this is addressed and resolved, he will have more affairs. What things on this checklist have been done?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

If your husband is refusing to make amends to you and is refusing to meet your needs, you should plan to separate. it sounds like he is playing head games with you.

Is he still having an affair? Are you spying on him to see what he is doing? He sounds very wayward.

Since he has never successfully met your needs then how can he say he "can meet" your needs in a second?

Affection is definitely my top need. He knows this, he does not meet this need. He is waiting for me to meet his needs because he fears getting hurt again by making himself vulnerable and opening up to me.

The affair is definitely over. All of these steps have been taken.

Yes, he says he can, but he doesn't want to until I can prove that I can meet his. I feel like I am going crazy sometimes.. I am not sure if I am just totally incapable or if we both have hurt each other so much that we just can't bring ourselves to get past our hurts.

That is really cute but he is not the victim. You are. What you should do is give him an opportunity to meet your needs and if he refuses, make plans to separate. This is all part and parcel of recovery after an affair. If a wayward spouse refuses to recover the marriage, it is time to separate and go into plan B.

How do you know?

Well I know of his where abouts all of the time... we both own a business together so we are together all of the time. He no longer keeps a password on his phone, although I don't check it anymore. He had the affair in front of my face for 5 months, it was way different after it ended.

He feels like he is the victim as well because I didn't care to meet his needs during our marriage, preaffair.

Where did he meet the OW?

He met her out one evening 2 summers ago when I was out of town with my children visiting family. He went out with a mutual friend for a drink, who brought her cousin along with her, someone I knew. In the first instance that she met my husband I believe her words were "Holy C$'P".. she knew he was married, but she filled him up and made home feel all the things that he never felt from me. They exchanged numbers and got together a couple days later. He told me about her 1 1/2 months later.

How was he able to sneak around and have an affair without your knowledge?

Some wife beaters also feel like they are the victims too. But, feelings are not truth. You are the victim here. he didn't meet your needs either and you didn't have an affair.

]
If he had the affair in your face then it is your poor boundaries that are the main problem. That would be some serious enabling on your part. Would you agree that you are an enabler? Do you have any idea why you would allow yourself to be abused?

Is the OW married?

He met her out one evening 2 summers ago when I was out of town with my children visiting family. He went out with a mutual friend for a drink, who brought her cousin along with her, someone I knew. In the first instance that she met my husband I believe her words were "Holy C$'P".. she knew he was married, but she filled him up and made home feel all the things that he never felt from me. They exchanged numbers and got together a couple days later. He told me about her 1 1/2 months later.

Has he had other affairs?

Why is your husband having opposite sex friends and going out for drinks with them? That is a bad idea- a marriage wrecking habit.

Read this The Risk Of Opposite-Sex Friendships

No he has not had any other affairs

That was then and this does not happen any longer.

What has your husband done to ensure that the OW can NEVER see or speak with him or have any contact with him again? Has his phone number been changed?

Does the OW or the mutual friend live in your hometown?

No, he has not changed his number, but her contact is deleted. She lives in the next town over and has removed her children from our sports district. The mutual friend does still live in our city, but she is not our friend any longer.

I guess I didn't pose my question properly, because I am more concerned with me not being capable of. Erring his needs, and all of the damage I have done with angry outburst (continually) and disrespectful comments (continually) and the fact that I have been married to the guy for almost 16 years and don't have the faintest clue how to meet his needs.

Because "pre affair" I was always wrapped up in my own head and my own world. I was focused on myself and my work. He was a "fixture" in my life... I never even noticed when he was not around.

Your H sounds VERY wayward to me. It would not surprise me to learn that there was still some underground C (contact) happening.

Did you know that Dr Harley has said a WH who does not approach R on bended knee, remorseful for his actions, is not serious?

If he does not change his attitude and quickly, I would show him the door.

Deleting her contact does nothing though. I get calls from people all of the time who are not in my contact list.

We understand that you want to learn to become the best wife possible. When we found Marriage Builders, most of us also had to learn how to stop the LoveBusters. Yes, you must never have an angry outburst again, but that is not the REASON that your husband had the affair. Do you see that?

He had an affair because he had zero boundaries around woman and HE allowed her to meet his needs. Let's say that another way....he allowed himself to feel great around her.

The way that you are focusing on all of the things that YOU did wrong, it seems to us that your husband may be still in contact with the OW. His behavior is not normal for a formerly wayward and now repentent husband.

Yes you were probably not the best wife pre affair. However, it doesn't sound like he was the best husband either. You have already stated that he did not meet any of your needs and never has.

Your H having an affair was not because of your behavior though, as has already been stated. He had an affair because he had poor boundaries around other women and let another woman meet his needs. He could have chosen instead to work with you to create a better marriage, but he didn't, he chose to have an affair. You were not getting your needs met either, but you did not have an affair. An affair is the most harmful thing you can do to a marriage, and the most painful thing you can do to your spouse. Yet he seems to have convinced you that HE is the victim here and YOU need to win him back in some fashion. He did not fill your needs and then chose to hurt you in the most painful way possible, yet YOU are supposed to be winning him back. No, friend, that is not how this is supposed to go. He has gaslit you into believing that you are lucky he is giving you a second chance to earn him, when indeed HE is lucky that YOU are giving him a second chance despite the fact that he has harmed you in ways you have never harmed him.

Dr Harley has been working with marriages that have been devastated by affairs for over 40 years. He advises betrayed wives DESPITE HOW THEY BEHAVED PRE AFFAIR to set their boundaries very high for a wayward husband to come back. He advises them to require a 'hat in hand' WH who is repentant and 100% on board with recovery. If that is not the case, he advises separation.

As you can see, your wayward husband is not anywhere close to hat in hand, repentant, or on board with recovery. The advise for you if he does not change his tune immediately, would be separate. He is gas lighting you and turning this situation around, having you beg him for forgiveness and trying to win him back when in fact YOU ARE THE VICTIM.

This is not saying you have to dwell on his past affair, or either of your past mistakes. You can go forward and create a great marriage together, but he needs to be on board with that. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO WIN HIM BACK.

You do not need to rephrase your question, we all read it correctly. We are just able to see the forest for the trees, and you are not.

Dr Harley says that women do not do well competing. He advises BW's during an affair, to Plan A for 3 weeks and then go into separation to protect themselves. He advises this because being in competition for your husband will take an emotional and even physical toll on you.

You have now been in competition for a couple years it seems, and I can already tell it has taken a mental toll on you as you don't seem to be thinking clearly about this. It is clear that he has gaslit you into believing it was your fault and you are responsible for fixing it. It is clear that he is using the OW to this day as a pawn to manipulate you into being a better wife, by comparing you to her. This is going to have long term harmful affects to you if it continues.

None of us were great spouses before we came here and learned how to be. You can be a great wife, but not when you are working with an unrepentive wayward husband who continues to gaslight, manipulate and hurt you. You realize that right?

You need to put spyware on his devices if you're going to stay in this marriage. Do not let him know you're putting it on.

When will you be doing this?

OMG. No, I don't realize this. I feel like I am going insane now.. like we have been going around in circles and circles for a couple of years now. Is he really gas lighting me? He did feel very very sorry while he was having the affair and definitely after. But he just feels now that it is in the past. And his hurt still happens everyday.

Has anyone here been in the same situation as me? I mean I have said the WORST things that any wife can possibly say to their husband. I have treated him TERRiBLY. He has been made to feel like a failure, not a good provider, not even a real man. I have told him he is average looking and I have never shown any interest in initiating sex or intimate conversation (this is actually one of his main emotional needs.) Our relationship was superficial and not very deep. I wasn't very open or honest with him ever. Honestly he should have ended our marriage because of how unhappy he was.

I am not sure seperation is an option where we physically are in different addresses. We are going through a bankruptcy and we own a business together. We can't physically afford anything else right now. Is there an option to seperate while under the same roof?

Hold on...I will get you a link from this board...BRB

Here, have a read ALL through this thread. It may explain some of what you are presently feeling:

Please Explain Gaslighting

The only way that it will be in the past is once HE provides just compensation and works his butt off with you to make your marriage better than it EVER was before!

Of COURSE his hurt still happens everyday if he continues to PUNISH you for HIS choice to have an affair!

Honestly, you need to snoop, snoop, and snoop some more. This man has not ended all contact, I can promise you.

We can and will help you with learning to make a new marriage (if you choose) that is better than your old one ever was.

But we can't do SQUAT until he has ended his affair and come out of the fog of entitlement. It's not just your husband; it is the same for every wayward spouse.

Please go out and buy a couple of VAR's (voice activated recorders) tomorrow, and put one in his car and another someplace in the house where he goes to be alone (I put one in the bathroom). Also, put spyware on all of his electronic devices. I bet dollars to donuts that you will discover that he has a burner phone.

No, separation cannot be under the same roof. Have you already filed for bankruptcy? When is your 341 hearing scheduled?

if you divorce, how will you handle that? Will you live in the same house and continue to share a business? Of course not. You are headed for divorce right now, either that or living in a miserable marriage until you have a mental breakdown. You CAN seperate, people do it every day. If you divorce you will have to.

How have you been for the last 18-24 months, during and post affair? Have you been terrible and abusive? Or have you been trying hard to meet his needs and avoid love busters?

How did the affair end? Who was the affair exposed to on your side and hers? How do you know he has no contact with her, do you have any methods in place to confirm that?

Please tell us what has been done from this list.

YES.
Absolutely.


He felt super sorry about having an affair right in front of your face? Can you see how ridiculous that claim is? And what difference does it make? It's okay to betray you as long as he feels really bad about it?


Questions for you:
1. Did he tell you his needs were not being met, and what they were, before having an affair?
2. Are you still having angry outbursts?
3. Are you still insulting him?
4. Are you still never initiating IC with him (or showing know interest if he tries to initiate a conversation with you)?
5. Are you being honest with him about your needs now?

You both did bad things to each other in the past. (Though what he did was arguably much worse.)

If he is so angry about your prior bad behavior that he prefers mentally torturing you now to making an honest effort to have a happy, fulfilling marriage with you, then what is the point from YOUR perspective in being married to him?

Let's say you were previously the worst wife EVER. Satan's little Sister in the flesh! Does he want to have a happy, fulfilling marriage with you, or just keep you around so he can punish you for the rest of your miserable life? What motivation do you have to be married to a person who has such animosity toward you?

Now I am feeling like maybe I am being too trusting? He never denied the affair after her told me about it. I took a totally different approach after I had found out, (did not know any of this info then) and tried to be understanding of why he found himself in the affair situation in the first place. I understand ultimately it is because he let another woman meet his needs, but why were his needs not being met? That went on for 5 months until he realized what he was doing to me and he ended all contact. I can't imagine that the OW would have gone one for this long almost 2 years with little contact and him having not left me yet.

I just have been very trusting that he has actually ended all contact. What kind of spy ware do you even put on devices? I have no idea about this.

I had exposed the affair to his family and her family and close mutual friends.
We spend leisure time together
I have access and take care of all of the banking
He has made a commitment to me to end all communications
I know his whereabouts at all times
He has revealed any information that I had asked about the affair

We have seen affairs that go on and off for years here.

Even if he isn't engaged in the same way he was, any contact at all, even looking at her Facebook page, can keep him invested in the OW and keep his mindset wayward. And he definitely sounds like he still has a wayward mindset.

How did the affair end?

I am guessing she broke up with him. It is very unusual for a man to just 'come to his senses' as men enjoy having their needs met by multiple women.

Yes, preaffair, we didn't necessarily know that our needs weren't being met.. we would always end up arguing about sex. After the affair, HE realized what was missing was intimate conversation, open honesty... (these are actually needs of his that weren't being met, but he can never communicate this to me).

YES, up until about 3 weeks ago (before I read "his needs her needs and love busters") I was still having angry outbursts and beiing disrespectful. I find initiating IC very challenging. I think this has to do with my parental role models and family life growing up which was always very superficial and shallow. Once he opens up and is receptive to any attempts I make, I find it easier.

I do feel like I am being honest about my needs now... but is whole thing is he doesn't want this to be a "one way street". He feels I am incapable (or unwilling? Don't care enough) to meet his needs... so until I figure out how to, he is withholding from meeting mine.

And why stay married? The alternative seems to me seems very scary and because I actually do still love him.

DRS, the above approach is the reason why you can't recover. Instead of understanding the destructive nature of his affair, you have basically enabled him and offered inappropriate forgiveness. Because of this, he feels no obligation whatsoever to recover your marriage. And why should he, since you have allowed him to blame you. Why would he change when he is not accountable? You, the victim, is being blamed for his crimes.

You are very much like the battered wife who comes here and tells us she CAUSED her beatings because she didn't have dinner ready on time. As such, the wifebeater has no reason to change his behavior.

The analogy of the battered wife is somewhat inappropriate because adultery is much more damaging and traumatic, but hopefully you get the point.

The biggest issues here are this:

1. your husband is neglecting you horribly

2. you are enabling this horrible neglect

3. you reduce your own value to your husband by allowing him to mistreat you. it makes you look very unattractive to be hanging around making yourself available to be mistreated

[quote=unwritten]How did the affair end?

He ended it with her. He was stringing both of us along and then he said he finally realized what he was actually doing to me, and he choose me. He said what he wanted most in life was for ME to look at him and treat him the way the OW did. He has severe "mommy issues" about never being good enough for a woman. Also, I had reinforced that feeling during our marriage.

And this is a deal breaker. If he refuses to meet your needs you should separate. I would guess his abuse has caused emotional and physical damage from the suffering. This is why Dr Harley only recommends that women tolerate this mistreatment for 3 weeks, they have nervous breakdowns and suffer psychosomatic illnesses.

You could have been meeting your husbands emotional needs 100% and he would have still had an affair if his love bank was open to other women.

Please note that he has done a pathetic job of meeting your needs and you didnt have an affair.

I agree. Either she broke up with him, or more likely, the affair never ended. He just took it further underground.

DRS, honestly, you are going to have step it up here and be more assertive if you want to save your marriage. You have lowered the bar SO LOW for your husband that he is just living DOWN to your expectations.

You can't save a marriage when you are an enabler.

I just really found out about marriage builders a couple weeks ago. HE found the book "His needs, Her needs" read it and then shared it with me. I went on to read "Love Busters". The past 2 years have been a roller coaster of me trying (most times unsuccessfully) to meet his needs, then angry outbursts, disrespectful language, terrible fights... and then the cycle repeats. The fights are less now because he is withdrawn and I am more in control of my anger...

Thanks, this article has been very helpful. I do believe that some gaslighting has been going on.

Thanks for your blunt honesty here. I am beginning to see this now. My questions are how do I even begin to repair this, when I have enabled him this long? When I accepted and forgave what he has done? When I trusted that he has ended it? When I have allowed him to not meet my needs for so long (because I believed didn't I wasn't deserving of having them met)?

How do I change this RIGHT NOW... when I have been an enabler for so long? When I had accepted and forgave him for the affair? When I have accepted not having my needs met? When the bar has been set SO low by me?

New to marriage builders and my husband and I have both read "His needs her needs". I have read "Love Busters".

We have prioritized our needs and my husbands are:
-intimate conversation/open honesty (surprisingly *his major need)
-sexual relations
-attractive spouse
-admiration (but he actually doesn't receive compliments well, and gets mad when I do compliment him)
-recreational partner

I should preface this with we are rebuilding after he had an affair... not in the way marriage builders recommends, but we just came across this work very recently.

So my question is... even though the above are my husband's needs.. he says his real need is for me to know his needs without him having to tell me what they are. In other words, come up with ways to meet his needs in the above categories without him listing them out specifically. He says if he has to tell me, then he feels like he is begging, and then he doesn't want me to meeet his need in that way then. If I meet his need in a way that he tells me, he doesn't feel that is a love bank deposit... more just neutral.

I am struggling here, post "his affair", because I feel like (and he has told me) that I can't figure out new ways to meet his needs. He is also withdrawn from our marriage of me not meeting his needs, almost 2 years post affair and he still feels empty from me not filling his needs. (He also is not meeting mine, and he knows it. He wants me to prove that I can meet his first.)

Is this a real meetable emotional need? (To be a mind reader is what I feel like he is asking me to do.)
-

Read this:
When to Call it Quits

And start preparing for Plan B.

Also: You need to change your mindset. You need to recognize that you CANNOT accept a marriage where you are being blamed for your WH's disrespect, abuse and now (to add insult to injury) refusal to meet your ENs.

Threads have been merged. Please stick to one thread.

You are reading the wrong books. Surviving An Affair is the appropriate book for your situation. Stop Lovebusters and get a copy of Surviving An Affair on Kindle today. You are trying to fix the wrong things because you are reading the wrong advice. Waywards prefer His Needs Her Needs because without the additional info from Surviving An Affair, they are able to excuse athemselves and blame their spouse. This is obviously what your husband has done.

He is 100% responsible for the affair. You are 0% responsible.

To recover the marriage, he needs to commit to the marriage and meeting your needs.

You need to commit to no more angry outbursts. But he owes you just compensation.

Watch Dr. Harley's video on surviving infidelity. It is an extremely helpful overview.

Would your husband be willing to start his own thread?

Apples, I don't think she should bring him here - she's being urged to pursue spyware.

That would be a disaster. He is obviously wayward and will be furious if he reads the advice here.

The first thing you do is go to him with the Forgive article and the EP checklist in hand. Tell him you are sorry for your part in the bad marriage but that is no excuse for an affair. Tell him you are willing to do what it takes to create a romantic marriage but that can't happen as long as he refuses to meet your needs. Your needs have been neglected for years and this is what it will take to keep you in this marriage: [<------use this very verbiage]

1. Go through the MB program and learn to do an excellent job of meeting each others needs
2. Avoid lovebusters
3. Commit to 20-25 hours per week of UA time meeting each others top intimate needs � 4 � 4 hour dates
4. Resolve the issue of his poor boundaries around women. He must practice extraordinary precautions to avoid this from ever happening again. Eliminate all opposite sex friendships

You are a grown woman and you know it is impossible to read minds. I don�t think we need to address this. You shouldn�t be chasing him, he should be chasing you.

I would speak to him and tell him what I told you. In the meantime you need to prepare for separation regardless of your financial situation. You need to figure that out.

**EDIT**

moderator's note: please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders materials before posting to others. The purpose of our forum is to help posters with MB concepts, not to share personal philosophies. Please contact me directly if you wish to further discuss. Thank you, Denali