I have been married 5 years, have a 3 year old and 6 month old and discovered husbands affair 1 month ago. He broke it off with her but for 3 weeks after I would find they were having contact and finally 2 weeks ago asked him to move out and are now in Plan B. Right before he moved out we had seen a marriage counselor and they recommended a book for us to read which he emailed when he moved out saying he is continuing to read. I dont think that book deals well with our situtation and feel that Surviving the Affair would help us more, but I know he is still involved with his affair partner. He comes to our house to see the children - should I leave the book for him?

Hi amac, welcome to Marriage Builders. I would suggest that you read Surviving an Affair and follow the steps for recovery in it. Your husband won't benefit from a recovery program right now, but you will benefit from the steps in SAA. Most importantly, exposing the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing the affair wide and far will reap the greatest benefits because it will be a splash of reality. Please read the thread linked in my signature and come back and we can discuss.

In the meantime, I would strongly suggest going into Plan B. In Plan B he shouldn't be coming in the house at all. Do you have an intermediary who is handling communication between you? Typically the IM will do the child tradeoffs so you don't have to see him.

Thanks for your reply Melody. I have started reading SAA and it has helped me alot. I wish I could cut all contact but I do not have any family close enough or friends available enough to be an intermediary with our children being so young. I also do not feel comfortable with him taking them out of the house to see them. I dont know where he is living and do not want them around the other woman. We have been able to arrange it so that we do not see each other. I stay out of the house when he is there with the children and he leaves as soon as I come back so I dont have to see him.

Both my husbands family and his mistresses family know of the affair, both families have asked them to stop. She is also married with 2 small children. I have communicated with her husband and he wants to work on his marriage with her also. My husband went and "confessed" to his churchs bishop but then would not return for a second meeting. Our mutual friends also know of the affair. I think I have done all the exposure that could possibly deter them, but they are not stopping.

Amac, this is a huge problem. The reason Dr Harley recommends Plan B for women after 3 weeks of Plan A is because continued contact causes nervous breakdowns and psychosomatic ilnesses. It also gives your husband the "fix" he needs to go out and continue his affair. He has the best of both worlds.

You MUST get this figured out even if it means hiring a babysitter 2-3 x a week to manage the trade off.

As for an intermediary, that can be handled by a friend or family that doesn't live there. Any necessary communication can be managed via email.

Staying in touch with him will be very damaging to you emotionally and will make it harder to recover.


Can you list the people you have told and tell me EXACTLY what you told them? Have you exposed the affair to the OW's family, ie: parents, facebook friends, etc? Is the OW's husband agreeable to the affair?

Please tell me exactly what you PERSONALLY told these people:

1. OW husband
2. OW's parents, friends and family
3. your husbands mother and dad
4. the bishop of your church
5. your close friends
6. your own family

Is this a workplace affair? Where did he meet this OW?

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He needs to take the children with him, but only on the condition that you know where with the stipulation that the children never be exposed to his filthy affair. Plan B is intended to simulate divorce while protecting your emotional and physical health.

The suggestion would be to find an intermediary, go into Plan B, make arrangements with a babysitter [or a friend from church] for a handoff where he takes the kids. When you go into a real Plan B, you would create a visitation schedule in order to eliminate needless communication. With children as small as yours, I would just give him a couple of afternoons a week and no overnights.

As it is now, he gets to come to the safety and comfort of his home and pretend like nothing is wrong. That doesn't help him, you or your children. He needs to feel the full effects of his poor choices.

Right now the schedule is he picks them up from daycare at 5:30 tuesday and thursdays and stays with them till he puts them to bed at 8:30. I go out with friends or to the gym during that time so we have no contact. He has requested a weekend day also and I let him see the kids sunday from 2-8 at the house while i was out and did not see him. I agree that he should not be given the comfort of our house to be with them but how do I tell him he cant do that? To make my situation worse, my husband is a family law attorney. So he knows he has the right to be in the house and if I push him he could file for seperation which could be finanically damaging to me. I make more then him and I would have pay him spousal support, and I could not afford the mortgage on my own so I feel I have to be somowhat ammenable to him with the kids otherwise it will be war.

He met this woman online in a chat room. They talked from sept-Jan (while I was pregnant) and met in Jan, started having sex in April. She lives 2 hours from us, but an hour from his work and he would see her while at work. In terms of what has been told:

1. OW husband, I emailed him and told him husband moved out and my knowledge of them communicating via an app. He said he knows everything already and knew my husband moved out. He said his wife said she is not moving in with my husband, but if she moves out it will be on her own. We have said we will email each other with updates about our situations.

2. Husband said other womans parents know and have asked her to stop. My husband has said her family has also tried to contact him, tht is the extent of what I know with her

3. My husbands paretns know every detail I know as well as his 3 sibilings. They have said they will disown him if he continues this and his sibilings have sent my flowers and texts offering me their support
4. My husband told the bishop everything I know, I met with the bishop after and confirmed. He did lie to the bishop and told him the OW and husband were divorcing, which I did not know was a lie until I contacted the husband who said he is trying to save their marraige.
5. I have told our close friends he is having an affair with a woman he met online and wont stop and that he has moved out.
6. Of my family, my sister and brother in law who are very close to us know everything. I have not told anyone else in my family about the affair though my parents know we are having problems. I dont have a close relationshuip with my parents or extended family so I have not felt comfortable discussing this with them.

Unfortunately, if you don't stop enabling him, things will get very ugly. By that I mean you are facing serious emotional and physical ramifications. Women have nervous breakdowns from trying to win a wayward husband back. You would be better off getting your own attorney and protecting yourself before he takes you down.. There is no benefit to enabling a destructive spouse whose objective is to destroy your marriage for his personal, selfish gain.



This is good. And he does know this is an affair, right? So, he is all right with her affair apparently? Is he an enabler?


You should also contact them directly and ask them to use their influence. It would put pressure on the affair since it sounds like her husband is a cuck.


How do they know? WHO told them? Did you tell them yourself? Or do they know the lies told by your husband?

Do they know the affair is alive and well? Will they reach out to the OW and try to run her off?


Have you corrected this lie with the bishop? Of course, it never really mattered because they are both married. "getting divorced" = married.


Have they spoken to him?


I would tell everyone and ask for their support. But more importantly, you need to go into Plan B. What you are doing is essentially enabling him and that doubles the destructive nature of the situation. It does not motivate him to end his affair.

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As a family law attorney how would he feel if his wife asked him to stay out of the home because his affair was the most painful thing she had ever endured and that she needed peace from his presence? How would he feel if that advice came from a licensed clinical psychologist who had treated women who had nervous breakdowns and PTSD from trying to win back their cheating husbands?

I doubt he would push his selfish agenda on you if that were the case. He can't damage you financially if you have legal protection.

Here How to Plan B Correctly

Everything that everyone knows about our situation has come from me. When he has lied about things to family and friends I go back and tell them the truth.

Some family and friends have confronted him and everytime he insists momentarily that he going to change and then 24 hrs later he is right back to his affair self. I guess I don't know what any additional exposure would do. The most important people in his life are his parents and siblings and they have constantly called him out and he is still willing to give up them, me, our children, his church. He is already isolated and has no friends which is kind of the problem in the first place, he says she is the only one who is there for him and the commiserate because they are both in the same situation right now.

I do understand he shouldn't be allowed the comfort of our home but it so scary for me when i distrust him so much right now to think of him spending time with the kids outside the house. Right now he is either couch surfing or renting a room somewhere that would not be suitable to take the kids. He says when he does get accommodations that would be reasonable to take the kids there he will ask to do that, but that would mean at least a 1 bedroom of his own and there is no way we could afford that and pay our mortage. The only possible way I seem him doing that is if he moves in with the other woman and they split the cost. And once he moves in with her I think I will have to divorce that would be too much for me to handle.

Im taking the kids out of state for a week so he will not have contact, and over fathers day I'm hoping that will give him a taste of things and will continue to try to limit the time allowed in the house with the kids. I don't know what else I can do. Mentally and physically I have been doing much better with him out of the house and have shut down all non essential conversation so I think I'm doing ok so far.

What can we do for you?

Welcome to MB and I'm sorry you are going thru this!

You realize right now your WH has left you for another woman and you are headed to divorce. I am telling you that because I hear you talking about how impossible it will be for him to take the kids outside the house, or get a place and afford two mortgages, etc. If this ends up in divorce (which has a higher liklihood if you enable the affair), he WILL be taking them out and getting a new place. That is the reality of divorce. So using that as your reasoning now is backwards. You force the consequences of his behavior fully on him now, and have a better chance of his affair crumbling.

I would recommend you get legal representation immediately so you can protect yourself, not only because he is a fogged out wayward but also because he is a lawyer. You need to protect yourself and not operate on the fearful assumption that he has the upper hand because he is a lawyer himself. That just supports the enabling and will allow him to walk all over you emotionally and financially. Get your own lawyer so you can keep that from happening.

I have consulted with a lawyer and have them ready to file the separation when needed. I'm a lawyer also, a prosecutor so believe me I'm not scared of his skills as a lawyer but unfortunately I know enough about the law to know the reality of my situation. But you are right, I do need to stop him from seeing the kids in the house.

I emailed more of his friends and her family members on Facebook last night. The OW and WS have both threatened me with restraint orders now, but it doesn't scare me, I know they have no legal basis for one. All I said in my email was that they are having an ongoing affair and asked them to convince her to stop to save my marriage. I have not responded to the OW should I just be ignoring her?

I always feel like the best response is no response. She is threatening a lawsuit because she is panicked and that means your exposures are hitting the mark, so keep it up.

That's what I thought too, thank u!

Have you reached out to her parents? If not, I would do that right away. Additionally, if his parents could also speak to them and HER, it would be very helpful. The fact that she has the NERVE to contact you tells me she is very brazen, so you need to expose her everywhere you can, including her facebook account. Tell everyone. the more people you tell, the more isolated they will be, which makes it much harder for the affair. Telling everyone also ruins any fantasies about the future.


Have you read the thread linked in my signature?

And unwritten is exactly right. It is not a matter of IF you will be divorced, but WHEN. You are headed for divorce now. Your approach makes that much more likely because a) your enabling serves the affair and b) it will tear you down emotionally which makes it much less likely you will reconcile.

By allowing him to saunter in at his leisure, he gets to pretend all is right with the world while he keeps 2 women hanging around to accept his crumbs. On the other hand, if you go into Plan B, he will be STARKLY faced with the cold realities of his poor choices. He will be barred from his home anm having to deal with a 2 infants out in public on his own. As it is now, he gets to enjoy the best of both worlds so this can go for years.

His strategy hurts ALL of you, especially your children.

This question is concerning and signals that you believe a wayward can be "talked" out of the fog, while in an active affair.

They cannot.

If your WH is a family law attorney, I cannot imagine how humiliating it will be to be brought into court and have your filthy affair aired out in front of people you are likely familiar with. Even if he works outside of your immediate area, it is likely he will know the judges and lawyers in that courthouse and they will of him.

So separation process will actually probably be an additional exposure...which is a GOOD thing.

The reasons that you state (possible financial reprecussions or start process of selling your home, etc) are not good reasons to pacify your WH, enable the affair and prevent yourself from going into a Plan B.

You are giving your WH his family fix and you are putting your health at risk.

Having gone into Plan B and Plan D myself, I find it hard to believe that you would be forced to provide spousal support after a short marriage that is ending because your WH is engaged in a sleazy affair.

Hell no. You cannot allow this to continue open ended like this.

~This is making things WAY too easy for him. This is a dream come true for a cake eating wayturd and this will drag out for a long LONG time.

~You will NEVER heal this way. After I went into Plan B (changed locks, etc) there were maybe 2-3 times that my WxH had to enter my home to retrieve items as part of our D process and just those couple of times was EXTREMELY stressful for me. I can't imagine living this way.

I think you are in Plan Appeasement and so afraid to anger your WH and think it will drive him further away that you are in your own kind of fog.

You would be better off filing and starting the process of dividing everything up and force him to parent on his own. It's a harsh reality but it will be better for all of you in the end vs dragging this out over the next months and possibly years.

Did you read this?

You all are right. I facebooked messaged her family and friends and additional friends of WH as well. I have told him he can no longer come to the house and has to communicate by email or text to me sister to discuss finances and child arrangements. Of course he is already fighting this and insisting he get to see the kids in the house but I doubt he will actually cause a confrontation. Has anyone had a WS try to force their way back in?

Also my sister wants to tell him off of course, but then will that make it so she can't be the intermediary? Someone needs to!

My attorney advised he does have the right to be there and I would have to pay spousal (CA does not care about infidelity only domestic violence would exclude spousal). My husband does not work in the county were we live, but he is not telling me where he is living right now and I have a suspicion he maybe living in the county he works (its closer to OW also). I can actually see him hoping to establish residency there so we can divorce there because he does know the Judges there and thinks it will give him an advantage. Its a 3 month residency requirement so i will be sure to file in my home county before that 3 months is up just in case. I don't want to go to his ghetto hell hole.

Thanks for your support and encouragement. Anything else I should do?

YES. They almost always try to force their way in somehow. Waywards fight Plan B with a vengeance because they do not like losing control over the situation. This move will force your H to face the reality of his poor decisions and he will fight this. I would expect him to just arrive and walk in to put you in your place.

I would strongly suggest you change the locks TODAY. If he wants to get access to your home, he will be forced to go before a judge and get a court order and I have NEVER seen a WS do that. I have seen many threaten legal action but when the BS's lawyer objects the WS backs down.


Let his parents, friends and family tell him off. Ask your sister to hold a neutral front. She needs to agree to be a SPAM filter, nothing more.

I would put together a very regimented visitation schedule so that you have very, very minimal contact. You want to get everything put to bed that you can so your IM is not having to relay endless messages.

ALSO, she should not pass on anything in his words. She needs to ONLY pass on pertinent info about kids and finances. nothing more. He will send long, dramatic messages about you are mistreating him, blah, blah, blah. you should never see those.


Your attorney needs to be prepared to fight for you and defend your decision to be in Plan B. The advice to go into Plan B comes from a licensed clinical psychologist.

ALSO, it is better to file for divorce while the WS is in the throes of his affair because you will get a better deal while he is fogged out. This doesn't mean you have to end up divorced, just that you get the best legal protection possible while you can. If his affair ends, you can always discuss reconciliation.

I would also suggest you send the Plan B letter described in SAA with a copy sent to the OW's house with a note to her. Go to page 77 in SAA.

I'm afraid I did things backwards and left the plan b letter and then did more exposure, is the order important? How important is the note to the OW? I know they will just laugh and me and call me crazy behind my back and I hate that! But I guess they are already doing that. I just know it's gonna cause him to contact me again and make more restraing order threats and I don't want that.

Once you are in Plan B, he should have no way to contact you except through your IM.

The beauty of Plan B is that you will cease to care if they are laughing behind your back. You won't know what he is doing and will slowly cease to care. If he decides to threaten you with more lawsuits you won't know that because your IM will filter it, along with all the other fog babble.

It doesnt' matter in what order you do exposure versus Plan B. That is ok.


It's pretty important. She will laugh but it will scare her because you are telling her and him you will be there. By removing yourself from the picture, though, the focus will turn to THEM and their rotten, doomed affair. That will make her nervous because without you in the wings she will have to step up in a huge way and that will put pressure on the affair.

Also, you won't know how they react because you are in Plan B.


You need to make sure he doesn't get through. In Plan B, it is up to you block him. Block his cell, email, etc. Turn OFF your answering machine if you have a landline.

Got it. Ok I blocked his cell and all his email addresses. Also blocked her. I don't know where she lives for sure, I got an address on her husband but can't be positive. I think I will file for separation next week (I'm currently out of state with the kids). Im thinking i will send her the note when I do that, that way the will both know its not the end?

Did you read this?

Send your sister the IM training link that is in the Plan B thread. Can you change all your contact information so he can't contact you? He is very smart and can just call or message you from a different way that isn't blocked and if will get through to you.

Yes i did read that, thank you. I will send it to her. Its hard though of course she thinks I should leave him and not be doing a Plan B. but she is going along. It would disrupt my professional life a lot if I changed my cell number. If he does make attempts to contact me from another number I will see about changing it.

This is really hard! With the exposure I did and now all the blocking him he is really mad and I know thats pushing him more towards her, but thats the point right? Push them together so it implodes?

What has helped you get through this? I have a lot of friends and family and a job that a love and my children make me so happy but I'm so broken right now.

You are doing great! Did you give him the plan b letter?


He is already pushed towards her, though. That is why we are here. Actually, it will start interfering in his affair because he will be bitching about you. He will become obsessed with getting through to you and she will hear all about it! what a fun date to listen to your MARRIED boyfriend carry on endlessly about how his WIFE won't let him contact her!


If you stick to this and ensure a pitch black plan B, you will start feeling much better in a couple of weeks. It will only improve more and more after that.

Thank you so much. No one understands who hasn't been through this.

Ive been reading more about Plan B and I have a question. I have H's old cellphone that still has his Facebook and work email on there. I think its important for me to see his work email so I can see his invoices so he can't lie to me about what money he is making. On his Facebook, he and the OW are friends, but they have blocked it so that no one can see their friends. (OW is married and still has her status as married). They do not post anything about each other or message each other on there so all I see is that they are friends and their pages. I know part of Plan B is healing and having this ability to check up on him is probably counter to that, but at the same time I feel like if he comes back trying to tell me its over its a good way for me to know if he is being truthful or not.

What should I do with the phone?

I would keep it and use it for the very reasons you gave.

Does he know you have it and have access to these things?

I would definitely keep it. But, in Plan B the purpose is for you to be NC with him to heal, so put it in a safe place and do not check it unless he claims to have ended the A and gone no contact. In fact, maybe you can give it to your sister and she can use it the check his word, then you won't even be tempted to just look.

I think he knows I have the phone but he must not realize those accounts were still on there, otherwise he would have changed his passwords. I've had it for a month now and he hasn't changed anything.

Ya I do look at it more then I should and it is hurtful. I probably should give it to my sister. Hard to do though. I would like to check his work stuff regularly but ya the Facebook is not good for me to see

Facebook has a tendency to logout if there are logins from different locations. My sister used my FB in another country to get access to WIFI in a hotel, I got a e-mail notification and she was locked out.

I don't know exactly how this works, but be careful not to make unusual use of the account, FB might inform him. You don't want to lose this source.

Alright I think Im already not doing Plan B very well but i need advice. I emailed H yesterday telling him I was going to file for divorce this week. It wasn't an entirely angry email, more just pointing out all the choices he made to get us to this place. Of course he texted my sister, the IM like crazy making claims about how he is ready to work on our marriage. I called him and I'm pretty sure he was fake crying and he gave a similar speech as before that he was emotionally ready now and he and OW had agreed to work on their marriages and he was repenting through the church. I was angry and told him I would only consider reconciliation if he quit his job and fly to his parents house by friday. This is because he would meet her at work and we both know he can't stay their for our marriage to work. His reply was "how can I do that" and i just said "goodbye daniel" and hung up.

Now of course I'm second guessing myself. Was that too much of an ultimatum? I think I have to file regardless to protect myself. But I feel the need to have a calm conversation with him and explain why I think he has to do those things rather then out of anger

Have you sent him the Plan B letter with your conditions (EPs) that have to be met before you will even consider working on the marriage?

And no him quitting his job where the OW is, is an EP that you must hold him to.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

Here from Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Yes, I was thinking of that part of the book when I gave that ultimatum. It seems the only way to stop the affair at this point other then waiting for the natural death which I don't think I am capable of, but it does seem counter to Plan B. In my Plan B letter i did not specify any conditions other then the affair end and we both make a commitment to work on our marriage.

He def has to quit his job and he started tell me about someone wanting his resume, but I was so mad I said he had to quit and go to seattle by friday, which may have been a bit extreme. But even if he started a job in our home county away from the OW I still would not be ready to let him back in the house, i feel to traumatized, so thats why I said he has to go to Seattle. Im afraid even if he starts another job and remains out of the house the affair will continue.

Plan B means you end all contact and do not contact him until he reaches out to you after he ends his affair and commits to meeting your conditions. He won't stop the affair until he wants to stop the affair. All the ultimatums in the world won't stop it. The problem now is that he knows you aren't serious about Plan B.

I would regroup, shut down avenues of contact and STOP contacting him. The conditions for return are a) end his affair and b) be prepared to meet all conditions of for recovery.

I would expect him to make some half assed offers for "reconciliation" before he is really serious. When he contacts your sister about reconciliation, she can test his sincerity without ever contacting you. You can give her my email address and I will help her navigate this. my email address is ohmelodylane@aol.com

And if he continues his affair then you will stay in the protection of Plan B. That is why you need to close the Plan B holes and not talk to him until you know he is serious about ending his affair and committ to the EPs you have given him.

So how can you close these Plan B holes?

Now you can see the reason for a dark Plan B. You fell into his trap and called him only to find out that as expected he is not serious about ending his affair. It only managed to upset you and make you second guess your boundaries. This is why being serious about Plan B is so important. No worries, you lapsed a bit but can get back on track.

I think the problem is I did too many things at once. I exposed OW to Facebook friends and family and added more of H's friends, then told him he can't come to the house anymore and then instituted Plan B. So it was a lot of drama before gojng into the blackout. Tomorrow night the friendsI exposed to are going to dinner with H and he doesn't know they know. I don't expect them to change him but I have to feel like I did everything I could. And I know I shouldn't even know about the dinner but my poor sister caved.

I think I'm in for a rough few days, but when he does not follow my ultimatum I will file for divorce and I think that will make it an easier transition to plan B. He can fight with my lawyer over coming to the house or not and my sister wont have to intervene as much about that and money.

It's difficult with her because she does not support a plan b. She thinks I should be done with Him and move on.

I don't think you did too many things at once. I went from dday to being in a full blown Plan B in one week all while I was having daily panic attacks, doing exposure, packing his things up, etc.

There WILL be drama and you WILL want to contact him. That is actually a big part of the reason for Plan B - to remove yourself from the craziness that surrounds waywards. A dark Plan B for a period of time is actually what will HELP YOU NOT WANT TO CONTACT HIM.

You WILL think there IS something more you can threaten or say to make him come out of the fog. There ISN'T. As long as you think this way, you are at HIGH RISK to break Plan B again.

You don't even want him back unless he is remorseful and on bended knee anyway.

Have a plan for any time you are feeling tempted - post here first if you are even contemplating a Plan B break into the future (and yes, this will happen!).

Just to continue from the last post. Having been through this, I don't agree that filing for Plan D will help you.

My Plan B break was after I filed for D. I still regret doing it even though this was years ago. It was basically the same as having an AO which my goal is never to do, ever. I was very angry about something a friend told me about my WH - that's partly why it is important not to allow people to talk to you about him.

Plan B will help you with Plan B as weird as that sounds. When you find yourself feeling better and better separating your life from WH and letting the wayward drama consume your life, you will realize HOW BAD living that way was for your.

If you don't REALLY go dark, you are going to struggle, for a long time.

It's important that she understand is doing a job where she needs to be impartial and set aside her feelings and just do what needs to be done. Do you think she can do that? Has she read the IM manual?

What is an AO? Why do you regret filing the D before plan B?

An Angry Outburst (look under lovebusters above)

I don't regret filing for D. I regret my Plan B break which came After filing for D. My point being that filing for D will not help you stick to Plan B or be less chaotic or emotional etc.

You're going to want to break Plan B until you get to a peaceful place where your thoughts are not consumed by WH. You have to resist the urge no matter the excuse.

I just want to emphasize this because it is so important.

It's going to be so hard for me not to ask about what happened at the dinner with H and his friends. (Not that I would contact H, but I know the friends will talk to my sister about it). But its just going to hurt I'm sure. I contacted my mother in law to let her know what has happened and that I plan to file for divorce and of course she tells me she talked to H and how he is just a lost soul. Stuff that hurts to hear. I did tell her from now on not to tell me if she has talked to him or what he says, even if I ask her too.

Thanks you guys, please keep reminding me not to contact, not to ask, and tell people not to tell me. I know its what is best but so hard.

This is the thing...

There are some BS who refuse to implement Plan B who YEARS after the A and divorce STILL have a death grip on their WS. They may not even realize it, but it is obvious to a third party that they are very much involved in their ex WS's drama, still talk about them all the time, etc., it adversely affects their current relationship/marriage and their health...

I can't tell you how many times I have read posts from BSs who are depressed, unhappy and/or angry and don't even realize how much it has to do with the fact they are stuck because they won't cut off their ex wayward or because of how badly they were damaged by not going into Plan B sooner.

I have a good friends IRL like this in addition to the many times I've seen it on these forums.

I can tell you that the way I view my exWH is similar to the way I view a distant relative that I have, that I do not really respect, who makes me uncomfortable. I prefer not to know anything about him or have any interaction - but if I hear something (from my children) I just remain neutral and it doesn't really make me feel anything emotionally (so long as it doesn't hurt them).

My kids are doing as well as they could possibly be doing under the circumstances because I am doing very well, I really do believe that.

Plan B, Plan B, Plan B if you want the best possible outcome for yourself and your kids regardless of what happens in your marriage. I can't emphasize that enough. You can do it.

Thank you SusieQ. That's what I need to remember, that its best for my children if I keep this drama out of all of our lives.

So then what's your plan to go to a true dark Plan B? How can you close the holes?

I emailed my sister and sent her Melodylanes post:

"Plan B means you end all contact and do not contact him until he reaches out to you after he ends his affair and commits to meeting your conditions. He won't stop the affair until he wants to stop the affair. All the ultimatums in the world won't stop it. The problem now is that he knows you aren't serious about Plan B.

I would regroup, shut down avenues of contact and STOP contacting him. The conditions for return are a) end his affair and b) be prepared to meet all conditions of for recovery.

I would expect him to make some half assed offers for "reconciliation" before he is really serious. When he contacts your sister about reconciliation, she can test his sincerity without ever contacting you. You can give her my email address and I will help her navigate this. my email address is ohmelodylane@aol.com"

And the IM training school material. She says she agree that this is best for me and understands what the conditions are now. I also told my mother in law not to tell me anything else about H or even if they have spoken.

Unfortunately so far I have been the biggest hole but I'm feeling the consequences of that now. If I get the urge again to contact or get info I will post here first.

The last hole I see is with the kid exchange. Yesterday was the first day since I told him he couldnt be in the house with the kids that he saw them. He texted through my sister that he picked them up, took them to the park and gave them dinner. Then told her he was bringing them back at 7. For me to avoid seeing him, I did like I have in the past and stayed up stairs for him to bring them in. He says goodbye to them and then leaves. This I dont like. I dont like him in the house at all and I dont want to hear him with the kids. But we have a 6 month old and 3 year old that cant exactly come in the house by themselves. I dont know who I could possibly find someoene to come over for those 5 mins 3 times a week to do the exchange outside of the house.

My thought is when I file for divorce I will ask that he has custody every other weekend, so no more of this 3 times a week. Right now he is still staying at his paralegals place so I think until I file he will just continue to do that rather then get a place to accommodate the kids. But even when I file he might not do that. I think he is waiting for OW to leave her husband so they can get a place together. Dont know why she isnt doing it yet. But I'm in plan B and should not be concerned about that

I would close this hole immediately. You can give him visitation 2x a week [2-3 hours, you choose] and give him a strict time, say 2-4 on Saturday and 5-7 on Wednesday. Make that the permanent visitation so you don't have to have all this extra contact. Hire a neighborhood teenager to come to your home and do this transfer outside. He should not be in the house at all.

Him coming in your house and you hiding upstairs completely defeats the purpose of Plan B.

I would completely eliminate all this unnecessary communication. Send him a strict schedule and he comes to your house at the time, the babysitter takes out the kids. The babysitter comes back at the drop off time and retrieves them at the specified time. You dont even want to get into a position where you are having to DAILY negotiate visitation times. Just do that ONCE with a set schedule. And if he is 30 min late, he forfeits his time.

Agree with MelodyLane.

Oh, no, he absolutely cannot come into the house.

I know I dont like it but there is no way I'm going to find someone to do that. My neighbors all have young children like us. There is a one teenage girl from his church that I use sometimes as a babysitter that I can ask but she is super busy, but I will try.

How do you keep something like this up for years potentially?

I can tell him to bring the kids in the garage and leave and shut the door and I can come and get them in there. I hate the idea of my kids being tossed in the garage though, but thats the only alternative to keeping him out of the house that I can think of if I cant find someone.

I would really think this through until you find a solution. You could take the kids to someone else's home, hire a sitter; there are lots of ways to do this. You could find a senior in high school who drives perhaps. They are out of school now looking for jobs.

Is the problem him coming in house, me being aware or him in the house, or the potential for contact? the garage solution will eliminate him coming in the house. I just know WS is gonna be pissed about the babysitter since she is from his church. And I feel bad getting a more people involved in our drama.

But you won't know if he is pissed or not; you are in Plan B. That is not your problem. The problem is him being in your house. He can come in and do whatever he wants. He can walk right upstairs or stay if he chooses. He shouldn't be given access to your house. Plan B is a totally dark separation.

Truly, this isn't that hard. We are talking about 2x a week. We have had other ladies who had babies younger than that who did this. Another option is to just let him visit the baby 1x a week and let him see the older child 2x a week. That way you can just send the toddler out to the car.

Right. It needs to be like divorce, and with divorce there is no walking in and out of the house. Ok, I will figure this out. No more coming in the house.

Plan B is not for him to experience divorce, it is for you keep your sanity.

You got it!! It is supposed to show him exactly what divorce will feel like while protecting you.

Can you drop them at your MIL's house, and he can pick them up there? It seems like you still maintain a relationship with her. Then you can drop them off early and pick them up late and he doesn't even come to your house. And kids are with grandma instead of in the garage (I wouldn't like that either).

As long as she respects your Plan B that would work.

I agree there are much better options than putting the children in the garage. The garage is still part of the house.

Ugh I have no family near by which makes this hard. I am in CA, MIL in seattle, my parents in UT. My sister is the closet and she is 2 hours away.

I've told my sister to tell him to bring them to the front door and ring the bell. I will give him enough time to get to the car and open the door. The baby will be in his carseat so no problem there, but my 3 year old may run around a bit but I dont think she will get very far. I'll be able tot ell if she is running out from our front room so I will call for her if that happens.

Ugh I have no family near by which makes this hard. I am in CA, MIL in seattle, my parents in UT. My sister is the closet and she is 2 hours away.

I've told my sister to tell him to bring them to the front door and ring the bell. I will give him enough time to get to the car and open the door. The baby will be in his carseat so no problem there, but my 3 year old may run around a bit but I dont think she will get very far. I'll be able tot ell if she is running out from our front room so I will call for her if that happens.

What about hiring a babysitter?

Re: babysister - his feelings about the babysitter aren't your concern. Your concern is to eliminate all exposure to himso he cant hurt you. In Plan B, there should no way for you to know about his feelings -- about anything.

We did the front door thing and it was fine. He was no where to be seen and both kids were safely at the door. I was upstairs so I did not hear him or was at all aware of his presence until i heard the knock.

I have done well the past couple days, did not even ask about the dinner with H and did not inquire with my sister about any of his responses. But it is sooo hard. I have to file for divorce now because I gave that ultimatum about quitting his job and going to seattle which of course he is not doing. Its so unfair that I have to be the one to do this when I don't want it. But I know it has to be done, and better to start the process now then delay it. So hard when all i want to do is call him and yell at him and beg him not to make me do this. At the same time, the person he is right now is not a person I want. I could not even let him back in the house right now I think even if the affair was over.

For those of you that did try to reconcile when the affair was done, was it like the person you knew before was back and out of the fog or were they a stranger?

The answer to that question is sortof dependent. Dr Harley says that wayward husbands should come back fully repentent and 'hat in hand.' They should woo you back and do the hard work to get you to invest into the marriage again, and to pay you just compensation. Whereas, although wayward wives still have to pay just compensation, they rarely come back fully repentent and hat in hand. Most of the cases where WW comes back, the BH still has to be the one who woo's his wife and does the hard work to get her to invest into the marriage, even though she was the one who cheated. It doesn't seem fair and I would find it difficult to be a BH and have to do that. But Dr Harley differentiates between the sexes because in general they are different in how they handle things, what they can tolerate and for how long, etc.

So in your case you would not accept your WH coming back, unless he is 'hat in hand' and fully ready to recommit to marriage and to paying you just compensation. He needs to be BETTER than he was before frankly.

The fog should last a few short weeks after going NC with the affair partner. If he were to meet your EP's, one of which is end his affair and go no contact, he would be out of the fog when you began recovery. We have people come here all the time who are in recovery and state that their spouse is still foggy months later, and it is almost always due to the fact that there is continued contact with the AP and the affair isn't fully over.

I'm sorry to tell you that I doubt this plan will work.

At the time of Plan B, my kids were old enough to walk from the car into the house and WxH was asked to stay at the end of the driveway.

For a few weeks I would have my dad be at my house in case WxH tried to break my Plan B, which he did a few times. My dad and my daughter would tell him to go. One time he had lobsters he brought to the door. Another time he had a envelope he wanted to hand me.

Most WS hate Plan B and will test you for a while. Even if this goes to D, that is a very real possibility, because, again, waywards HATE Plan B.

WS's want a BS to be their "friend" - it makes them feel "bad" to have a BS who won't talk to them.

Count on him to try to break your Plan B, and soon.

Yes, WH has said many times while the affair was happening (and I hadnt discovered it yet) that his biggest fear was me hating him and when I found out about the affair he said that if our marriage ended he hoped we could be friends - ha! What a joke.

Under normal circumstances, my H is not a confrontational person, and he has always made a big deal about no scenes in front of the kids. Plus he knows how angry I am so I can't imagine he would actually try to see me anytime soon. But I'm guessing these are not safe assumptions being that this is not normal circumstances.

I'm going to have my mom and aunt come down in a couple weeks to stay and they can do the exchange while they are here. In the meantime, I can work on the babysitter. I just feel bad, I'll have to explain the situation to her mom and personally, if it were my daughter I woudn't want her involved in this.

Didn't take long. He left an envelope in my mailbox with a letter. I read it. I know I shouldn't have. It was a very cold lawyer like letter explaining why he is not going through with my ultimatum. Three pages mostly talking about his complaints about his job and how he is looking for a new job, but still in the area he is working now. Made no claims about wanting to work on our marriage and made no references to the other woman. All about how is reading self help books and going to therapy to make himself better. He even wrote "if this letter makes you file for divorce I understand." And then crossed it out and scribbled over it.

I told my sister to tell him that once I realized it was from him I threw it in the trash and didn't read it. She told him that the conditions in my letter (the plan B letter) still stand, but since he is not committing to work on our marriage I will be filing for divorce and will not have communication with him in any form until the affair is over.

Is this just hopeless? I def asked for this because I'm the one who broke plan B and did the divorce email and ultimatum making for a really tough week. Sorry I know I'm probably not gonna elicit much sympathy when I keep sabotaging myself.

I am not sure why you think you sabotaged yourself. You did exactly the right thing by having your sister tell him you didn't read the letter. Now is the best time to file for divorce anyway, because you can get a better settlement while he is in the fog. If his affair crumbles and he comes out of the fog and will commit to the marriage, you can drop the divorce. But in the meantime, you can get legal protection.

My biggest concern about you is that you are not really in Plan B. You see him during child tradeoffs, which pretty much defeats the purpose. Do you have someone at your church you could enlist?

p.s. your situation is not hopeless at all!

Thanks Melody! I don't see him during the drop-offs, the new thing is for him to bring the kids to the door, knock, and then I wait until he has left to retrieve them. Granted, we have only tried that once, but there was no sign of him. I actually have not seen him in close to a month, but yes prior to this week he has been bringing the kids in the house so I would at least hear him which was not good.

I'm really failing at this. I went out with friends last night and had a good night and for the first time since H moved out I felt at peace with the situation. So of course I think its a good idea for us to talk at this point. My reasoning was I feel bad about my AO when I called him back after my divorce email. I just hate that is the last conversation we are going to have before divorce. I honestly did not want to hear him say something to hold me back, that gets my angry because I know its not genuine right now. But I just want him to admit that he has no intention of stopping his affair. His actions show it, but it would help me feel so much better about moving forward if he would just come out and say it. So I texted him, said I'm not angry for the 1st time in a month and think we should have an honest conversation before ending our marriage, but if he didn't think we could do that then we shouldnt. He never responded and I reblocked his number this morning. He communicated through my IM about picking up the kids. He rang the bell then went back to his car (i did not see him at all) and then I put the kids outside the door.

I'm embarrassed even to admit on here about my text. But thought I should confess it because embarrassingly, I know part of me is hoping to talk to him still. So irrational I know. I just hate that Im the one who has to file for divorce and do this when its all his doing and what he wants, not me.

amac, I am sorry this happened but we could have predicted it. Please use this as a reminder the next time you feel tempted to attempt to negotiate with a wayward.

p.s. we understand how very hard it is to put aside emotions and take a strategic approach. Truly we do. Just know that you will be better able to control your emotions if you stay dark in Plan B. You will feel so better FASTER if you can do that. Contacting him will always make you feel worse. ALWAYS.

Time for my confession and confusion. At work on monday H called me from a number that listed the same city I work in, so I thought it was a work call. I answered and he said "hi its Daniel" and i was like "daniel who" I had no clue it was him. Then when he said it as him I told him I didnt want to talk to him and he mentioned my text, and I said I shouldn't have sent that. And before I knew it he was telling my how torn he is and he knows we can't go on like this and if he does follow my ultimatum of going to Seattle he will do it this weekend, but that he is scared that even if he does it I will divorce him anyway. We both ended up crying, him saying he is sorry (which i have heard before) my telling him I still loved him, and him saying he knows he has to make a choice. He asked how he is supposed to communicate what he is going to do and i said tell my sister, the IM.

I realize that me contacting him when I have said I would not is somewhat like him contacting OW when he says he will not (but obviously his is much worse in terms of betrayal and consequences to so many), but that urge is similar I think. So I am determined to no more contact, to prove that it can be done. But, in situations like the phone, do you just hang up on them?

Also, I don't think he will go to Seattle. But part of my is afraid that he will. If he does and has ended his affair, that means we need to resume contact and I told him I would go up there to see him with the kids. But the thought of seeing him is still traumatic to me. How do you even start again after this, and after not seeing or having much communication for a month now?

Anyone i talk to of course hates the fact that he is still "torn" and i know you all have advised that he needs to come back "hat in hand" So does that mean that if he decided to choose me when conflicted, its not good enough? Even if he does end it and meet my EPs?

Now why would he need to go to Seattle? The conditions should be a) end his affair and b) quit his job. I am confused.

I gave the ultimatum when i said i was divorcing that he quit his job and go to seattle. Seattle is where his parents live. I said that because I believe it will be too hard for him and other woman to not contact each other while they are both here until he has gotten over the withdrawal period, and because even if he were to end the affair I am not ready to have him come back in the house, and I do not trust that if he stays out of the house he will have NC.

Just doing this through the withdrawal period will not suffice. Because he will be in perpetual withdrawal if you live in your same town. You will be dealing with years of his affair if you don't move. That might work if you are going with him until you find a new home in another town. You are very, very correct that he needs to move. But so do you.

Going through withdrawal is an exercise in futility if you are going to drink again.

OW does not live in our city, she lives 2 hours away. He would go to court sometimes in that area so he would see her then, and sometimes she would come down to his work which is an hour away from hers. Thats why i said he has to quite his job and get a job in our home county. His association with her is from work, not where we live.

My thought was the longer he goes without contact, the easier it will be not to contact. so if he goes out of state at the beginning when it will be the hardest to not contact it will give more of a chance for nc when he is back home.

Obviously seeing each other needs to be prevented but my husbands real problem is chatting. he met her in a chatroom online and has an addiction to it, that was another one of my conditions that he get help for that. My big fear is that even if i can prevent them from seeing each other, he will still communicate electronically because that is where his addiction lies.

It will be fine if he just quits his job and stays away from her town forever. Being 2 hours away takes some planning and work but it is far enough away that he is not being continually triggered by running into her.

So that is another gap you need to close. What is your plan for this?

That is going to be really hard. When he first broke it off, we deleted the mail accounts they would communicate on. He gave me all his passwords for Facebook, phone records, iTunes and all remaining email accounts. I deleted the app they used to talk on and installed a password on his phone to restrict from adding new apps. But, she created a new email address and they used that to communicate with each other. Nowdays how can you entirely block electronic communication?

I told him while in seattle he has to give his parents his phone. But, there is no way they are going to be able to monitor him enough to make sure he doesn't get on a computer.

You will have to figure it out. For example, he could get a new phone # and use only a flip phone. He would restrict himself to a home computer and only be on it when you are there. you can password protect it.


Another reason why he shouldn't go there. Once he quits his job, he needs to come home with you.

Yes that is probably right. But if I let him come home and I find contact it will break me. I'm in tears right now even thinking about it. And I don't know if I am strong enough right now to handle the Withdrawal.

Maybe The best solution is for us all to go to Seattle for a week or two. I could handle it better there with his parents I think.

The key is to close all these loopholes so you are safe when he comes home. His life should be so transparent that he would have absolutely no way to contact the OW.

How would that ever be possible though? I would have no control over his computer access at work, and there again they could open an email account that I know nothing about. And since he is an attorney, his contact info will always be online in some form.

You will need to figure this out.

H is not going to Seattle, or quitting his job. His response to my sister was that he can't go this weekend because he is wait to get paid and that he's got a lot of things to needs to decide and to give it time. I did not make any response.

So I will file for divorce this week. I feel like how could I possibly want this man back? He says he is "torn" but clearly by continuing his affair it is a decision against me and his family. We have such a good life. We both make good money, just bought a house last year, we are both objectively attractive people, our children are happy and good natured. We have friends and love each others families. He says he started disconnecting from about 6 months after our first child was born. I admit I was so happy being a mom that I did not focus on our relationship. But i thought he was happy too! He never once told me he was unhappy or wanted more attention from me. And yes our sex life declined after our daughter was born, and when I got pregnant with our son it was non existent. I get very sick during pregnancy. I figured these things were normal, and I still think they are. But his response to this, of cruising chat rooms, having an affair, and worst of all really not stopping the affair when it is obviously so destructive, doesn't that show a person of weak character at best?

I have been saying that I want to see who he is after the affair is over because this person is someone I don't want but maybe I would want that person. But before the affair he was a man who acted happy with me when clearly he wasn't because he was looking for something in chat rooms. Of course at this point, all my friends and family say to be done with him. And I know that is probably right. I just hate the idea of my kids coming from a broken home and I would do almost anything to prevent that.

We knew that he was not going to follow through because threats and trying to "talk" a wayward out of the fog do not work. Do you realize this yet? Because, as I posted to you before, until you understand this, you will be at risk for breaking your Plan B over and over again (which you have already done a few times now).

You now need to focus on being in a true Plan B which hasn't really happened for you yet.

amac!

This is how a BS who is not in a Plan B talks, ok? You can go back and forth and around and around in circles trying to understand and psychoanalyze a wayward. You will make yourself crazy. Please stop.

Your H is wayward and he started disconnecting when he started getting his needs met by the OW. It's that simple.

Anyone can have an affair - it doesn't matter if you were pregnant, had a great marriage, short marriage, long marriage, were happy or not. All that matters is lifestyle and EPs.

You don't need to think about whether you want will want your WH or not. Put that on a back burner and worry about if he ever comes to you promising to do whatever it takes to save this marriage. Until that day, put it out of your mind because your feelings will change day to day and over time so there's no sense in making yourself crazy trying to figure it out.

Nobody wants to give their children a broken home. That's why I personally fought so hard for my M. But that's out of your hands now. All you can control is your side of the street and at this point giving your kids a happy and healthy mom is the best you can do. Ok?

Thanks SusieQ, you are right. It is pointless to think about now. I just need to focus on the present and being better at Plan B Haha i feel like I'm in AA,"Hello my name is amac and it has been 1 week since my last drink, aka contact." I'm actually feeling pretty good and know it will only get better.

Don't feel bad, amac, I keep finding myself doing the same thing (trying to understand why my WW started her A, how I could have seen the warning signs about the M better, etc). I haven't been verbalizing about it on the forum as much lately, but when I see SusieQ's excellent advice to you, it hits home for me as well.

There's just no making sense of a wayward, and it's an emotional drain to even try. The more we BS keep remembering that, the less pain and stress our WS can continue to inflict on us.

What are you going to do to close your Plan B holes?

Thanks Arrba. Glad I'm not the only one doing this And yes, nothing they say makes sense, and on top of it they lie, so it is completely pointless to analyze what they say or do.

My new way of thought is that if i contact him when I have said I will not is almost (but of course not near as bad) as H contacting his affair partner when he says he will not. So in my head I have decided that I will prove to him that no contact is possible by doing exactly that to him.

In terms of stopping the contact from him, he called me from a different number and I answered assuming it was a work call, so from now on if its a number I don't know I won't answer. He wrote me a letter and left it in the mail box which I did read and then regretted and shredded, but had my IM tell him I did not read it in the slip up convo he was pretty mad about that and believes I did not read it so I think he won't waste his time on letters anymore. If he does, I think I will give it to someone else to read first and if it doesn't say he is ending the affair and agreeing to my EPs then I will tell them to trash it.

I am really nervous about filing for divorce this week. I know I have to do it because I said I would if he didn't quit his job and go to seattle, and I know now is the best time to get an agreement, but it is still hard. I do need to communicate (through my IM) about finances and I know I should get an agreement with him before the filing, because once that is done I don't know how agreeable he will be. But, he won't get paid for a couple weeks so even if I start the discussion about finances he won't be able to give me money yet. So that means pushing off the filing once again or just doing it, knowing it could hurt me financially. I think at this point I just have to do it. he has already caused me to delay it by 2 weeks already.

You should not contact him at all while in Plan B. Your attorney can send him your offer.

Not even through my sister the intermediary? Im afraid if its through my attorney is he going to be mad that I filed and would not be as agreeable.

When finances are talked about being passed through an IM, it is referring to things that pop up like new glasses needing to be purchased...that kind of thing. Not for divorce settlement negotations.

He's going to be mad regardless. Every WS hates it when they are not allowed to cake eat and get their way.

The times I can think of that we've seen other BS's come here and "negotiate" settlements with their WS either directly or through an IM are pretty ugly. The WS just ends up playing games.

I also think it's just going to futher encourage your WS not to take your Plan B seriously.

Yes, the point of hiring an attorney was so that I dont have to do the back and forth with him even if we can come to an agreement in terms of the divorce. So yes, you are right probably best not even to attempt that through the IM.

Aside from the long term agreement, since its the 1st of the month our kids daycare expenses and credit card payments are due. Do you think it would be ok to send those amounts through my IM? My attorney charges $450 an hour so the less I have to do through him the better, and these are issues that should not be contested.

Another thing I want to ask about. I gave the Plan B letter to H, but I have not sent it to OW. I admit with my repeated Plan B breaks I was afraid to do it to create more drama. Now that I will be filing for divorce this week I am tempted to send it so that she (and he) knows that the filing doesn't mean I'm done. Should I do that or not? What exactly are you supposed to say? I don't think I can bring myself to say as it says in SAA that "i will wait" because I don't know if that is true. But I want her to be afraid and know that I will always be in the picture. Also, I think I would have to email it. I did a white pages background check on her husband and got an address, but can't be sure if it is correct. I have already blocked her email so Im not worried about a response so much.

Hi Amac, I'm replying on your thread rather than on the plan B thread. It really is better if you just stop thinking about whether the fantasy has been busted up or not. Obsessing about it and waiting for tell-tale signs that all is not well in affair land will drive you crazy. The only thing you need to know is whether or not your WH is crawling back ready to do anything to save your marraige. He clearly isn't now. So everything else is irrelevant.

When I was making all the changes in my life over the past few months, I spent a lot of time reading The Art of War (there are some old threads on this site that talk about it too). It's a really useful book full of good advice for life. One of the first lessons is, as you prepare for any battle, you must first insulate yourself from defeat. I feel that this is what Plan B is really all about. It is about moving the BS to a place and set of conditions where, regardless of the outcome for your marriage, you will be just fine. It helps shift your focus away from saving the marriage and towards preparing for a brighter future, whether that means reconcilliation with your WH or not.

None of us come to this site wanting to get divorced. If we wanted that, we wouldn't have been trawling the internet for advice on what to do about our marriages! But once you spend time absorbing all the lessons and experience here, you start to realise that marriage is not an end in and of itself. And if you are in a bad marriage with a person who does not respect the commitment they made to you, there is nothing you can do to make a it a good marriage unless that is what your partner also wants.

You and I are stuck right now because our partners are not respecting the commitments they made to us and they are not prepared to put in the effort to make the marriage work like a marriage should. Maybe they will change and decide to do what it takes in the future, maybe the won't. But for now it doesn't matter. We need to focus on protecting ourselves and taking control of our lives, regardless of what our husband's are doing. Otherwise we will be miserable forever.

If your WH gets to the point where he is prepared to do what it takes to repair the marriage, it will be blindingly obvious. Everything else, all the emotions, drama, finding himself, pleading, profuse apologies, etc, are totally irrelevant so you should just ignore it all.

I know you are right Chalk, it is just so hard. That's my struggle - I recognize that Plan B is best for me and my children but its hard to let go of doing anything possible to save my marriage. There is so much conflicting advice out there. I am haunted by an article I read that said there are two things that make it so a wife cannot get her husband back from OW, 1) When she removes her presence from him, and 2) when he makes a commitment to her. Plan B is removing my presence and now by my filing divorce I know he will beg her to leave her husband and if she does that it will be a major commitment on both their parts. So its hard not to always second guess yourself. But I know its time to put myself and my children first, so regardless of the outcome for my marriage, Plan B is what has to happen. And I need to give it time. It's only been less then 2 months since D-Day and 1 month since separation. I know the longer I'm in Plan B the more settled my feelings will be. Thank you for sharing your perspective, I hope to get the peace that you seem to have soon.

The best and most effective way to drag the affair out for years is to allow him to have direct contact with you. That way he gets the best of both worlds while you diminish your own attractiveness. Let me assure you the OW is not competing for him. A woman who competes for a man is a big turn off. If anyone tells you that hanging around like a desperate woman is effective, just know you are speaking to someone who is clueless.

This is what Dr Bill Harley, 50 yrs experience saving marriages will say. Having been on this forum every day for 16 years I can tell you this is true.

So if you refuse to end contact with him just plan on dealing with his affair for a very long time.

Having a recovered marriage, being here every day for years and seeing how Dr Harley's principles apply on this site, and also seeing how his principles apply to everyone I know in real life, has convinced me that he knows what he is talking about! It has also convinced me that there are a lot of people who do *not* know what they are talking about. Not just lay people and bloggers, but 'professional' marriage counselors.

I read articles online all the time. People tag things on facebook about how to be happily married, how to handle an affair, and a wide variety of other stuff. I have yet to read one thing about marriage that isn't way off the mark! There is a plethora of bad information out there, I would advise you against second guessing yourself because of some article that was written by someone who clearly does not know how affairs work.

1) From his 50 years of experience working with infidelity, Dr Harley recognizes that MEN (not women) are able to love more than one woman at a time, and are content to 'cake eat' and string more than one woman along for years. So, if you do NOT remove yourself from the situation, this is your fate. Staying in the situation does not increase your chance of 'winning' because with regards to MEN in an affair, there is no competition as he will just keep both of you if you are both meeting needs for him. All that will happen is you will go crazy.

2) When he 'makes a commitment to her' which means she leaves her husband and they move in together, it puts pressure on the affair. This does not HELP the affair it helps breaking up the affair.

Have you read SAA?

I do understand that by direct contact with me he is having his cake and eating it too. So yes, I will not give him that and there will be no more direct contact from me. The temptation is even leaving me. But I do believe OW is competing for him. When we were "working on our marriage" while the affair was on going and I didn't know it and found emails that she wrote to him. Before 10 am she had written 4 emails and each like a high school girls diary "i love you i love i love" blah blah. We were taking our kids to the zoo and she wrote "think of my when you see the lions" "think of me when you see the giraffes' "think of me when your walking" she literally did everything she could to infect herself into his every thought. So does that just get old eventually?

Thanks unwritten, it does help to hear that you have seen the fruits of Dr. Harely's methods and I'm here because it does make the most sense to me. It is just hard to shift through all the stuff you hear. And I agree that if they were to move in together it would give them the dose of reality that is needed, I'm just afraid that if it goes that far even if they are unhappy they will stay together because of what they have cost each other.

Yes I have read most of it. It is hard for me to read the marriage recovery parts of it because I'm not there yet, and don't know if I ever will be there.

OW sounds needy and annoying That behavior would get really old for me honestly. But that is just me. We don't know how WH will respond to it and we don't really care do we!

I just want to point out that OW was competing for him. And that is probably why she sounds needy and crazy, because women do not do well competing for a man. You are a much stronger person and have removed yourself from the competition and refused to participate. Your children are lucky to have a strong mama who is taking care of herself and them!

Thanks unwritten for your encouragement! I know it is the best thing for me and them so I will do it - but its hard, she is needy and crazy and he told me that he thought it would have ended soon (when I found out about the A) because they were fighting so much because she was jealous of me. Now that i'm out its scary to think that impact is gone, but i know its what i have to do for myself and my kids.

Does the OWBH have all the evidence you have? Did you share evidence with each other?

He was a bit standoffish when I contacted him. I told him everything I knew and he was like "ya i already know everything" which was surprising to me because it was not easy for me to track down all that I knew. We exchanged emails for about a week with updates on what we knew, but OW found the emails and things blew up. He has not responded to my emails since. Now that i'm in Plan B I don't think its good for me to reach out anymore, will just bring me into their drama. Im tempted to though because I would like to know when/if OW moves out. Probably better for me emotionally not to know, but i am worried about WH having our kids around her.

I should add a couple things. My WH has said that the only reason OW and OWBH are together is because they are going through an adoption. I asked OWBH about the in my last email but he never responded. OWBH sounds in his emails like loves her and is very nice, saying he is working on his marriage (despite knowing the A is continuing which i find odd and pointless), so I don't think they are staying together just for the adoption. WH is also always quick to tell me about "weird [censored]" going on with them, potential domestic violence and talk of restraining orders ( a fav topic of WH and OW) but I haves stopped him and told him I don't care. Lots of issues here though. I am (despite what it appears on these boards) a very strong independent person, have not been one to fluff up my H (but was always careful not to put him down) I believe OW is filing that EM for him of making him feel needed. Plus being a family lawyer, I think that he loves that she needs to come to him about legal advice for her situation.

When you file make sure you put a clause in there that your children are not supposed to be around OW,

Yes, i am going to make that part of the agreement. But i know H will just lie about it, I believe he is terrified to live on his own and have both of our kids with him (though hopefully not often).

It has been a really hard 24 hours. The divorce was filed on friday, but WH has not been served yet, but the fee for the retainer is on my joint card. So my poor IM (sister) of course gets texts from WH on saturday saying the affair is over and talk of meeting my conditions and that he wants to talk to me. So I ask through her for proof that the affair is over and he says there is none, it was by phone and he already erased all his texts. I know this is BS because I have his old phone and see they are still friends on Facebook. So IM tells him no talking until he can prove the affair is over. No mention by him of course that he is aware of the filing or charges. Then today my poor MIL calls and tells me he saw the filing and told her we are done and they need to get used to it. Now everyone assumes we are done which is scary to me. WH and IM have been texting about us potentially talking by phone next week, but I know shouldn't. Im just scared of the animosity that is going to come now. I know I had to do this, and I know that the filing of the D really has no impact on whether he would have ended his affair or not, but it is so scary. MIL said that he has called them depressed the last few days saying it wasn't going well with OW and now I have just pushed them together again. I guess even thought I haven't talked to him, this is not a good plan B huh? I shouldn't have even been aware of all this stuff- but how do you realistically avoid it?

Like I told your IM, just hang tight and ignore the noise! Stick to your conditions and don't even consider speaking to him until he:

1. quits his job
2. ends his affair
3. arrives in Seattle

Until that happens, all this drama is nothing more than just NOISE. I assure you that your filing has shocked him and he is just trying to slow you down while he continues his affair.


You did this at the point of a gun, right?? I assure you that nothing could push an unwilling person towards his OW against his will! Your H is gaslighting his mother and you need to stop allowing her to talk this wayward fogbabble to you.

No, this is not a good Plan B. You may have to find another IM if your sister is unwilling to keep this drama away from you. Does she understand how damaging it is to you?

Tell her you do not want to hear anything else about WH. Until he has *proven* to her that he has met all of your conditions, you should not hear about him. We don't give a rats behind about his momentary intentions and fogbabble. I am confused as to why your sister is falling for that crap.

Plan B MIL if she will also not respect your boundaries about him. I mean it. The only way Plan B is possible, is if YOU WANT IT TO BE. You don't. And if you don't care, why would your sister, MIL, or WH care?

If WH wants to talk about the divorce, he can go through your attorney. There is absolutely no reason to arrange a conversation with you. But you already know this....

Your right, talking to his parents is just as bad as talking to him really, even though they want us to work out they buy into everything he says. But I need some assurance, does it actually happen that you can get back together while going through a divorce? Even in SAA it says to wait to file. I know I needed to but it def feels like a nail in the coffin right now.

You are right unwritten it is all my own doing. MIL I should not even bother talking to and my poor sister just feels so much responsibility with it I think that its hard for her not to let things leak and when a little piece does I want the whole.

I def do not want to talk the details of the divorce with WH so I won't. But of course I'm haunted by what MIL said, she's like "he thought there was a chance for you guys and now he is going to feel like a fool because you filed." Ugh, I know, getting what I deserve...

No, Dr Harley advises people to file all the time while the affair is active because the BS can get the best legal protection while the WS is in the fog.

I am not sure why you say it feels like a "nail in the coffin," other than to say that feelings are not truth. Filing for divorce is not the same as being divorced. And even if you did get divorced, you can remarry if he ever decides to meet your conditions. As it is now, he has no intention of meeting your conditions; he wants you to meet his.

It is very likely that he is just throwing you some crumbs to get you to stop the filing because that will make the reality of his affair too REAL. He wants to keep you hanging around like a barnacle while he has fun in his affair.

I told her to tell you about his LAME offer so he didn't catch you off guard when you exchanged the children. That is a huge hole in your Plan B that gives him the opportunity to speak to you any time.


Right, that is something for the lawyer to manage.


Did you burst out laughing?? Obviously, if he was serious about saving your marriage, he would do the necessary things to....save your marriage! That is completely in his control but he chooses not to do it!

]
This comment makes no sense whatsoever. Does she understand that you gave your H the opportunity to save your marriage and he declined? HE DECLINED.

Yes the crumbs always come when he thinks I'm taking action but then as soon as I do he switches gears completely into full on divorce mode, I don't get it.

MIL told me that no one he talked to said he should meet my conditions. MIL AND FIL say they don't want him in seattle with them right now because they don't want to have to hear him talk about this all the time, and they think it is not responsible of him to quit his job when he doesn't have another one. They just don't get it. So unfortunately that just makes him feel more justified in his actions.

Yes she did tell me so I wouldn't be caught off guard, but he can't force me to talk to him. I told her i would just close the door on him. And he really is non confrontational and makes a big deal of not doing anything in front of the kids so I think it is unlikely.

He was telling them that he was going to come up to Seattle next week and take a leave of absence from his job, so in her mind that was meeting my conditions, but problem is, none of that helps whatsoever when he hasn't ended the affair!

This was a test to see if he could get you to relax your conditions. You passed the test! So now he will rethink that strategy because he believes you are serious.

Yes, you are right Melody. It was a test and he mood changed very quickly once he realized it wasn't going to be so easy for him. Thanks for your help with this.

I think you should have no more contact with your in laws. It seems WH is circumventing the obstacles of Plan B through his parents. Either that or he is simply fogbabbling at them and they are lapping it up. Which would be fine if they did not try to pass it on to you or try to get you to accept CRUMBS from him. But they are. If they cannot get that under control, I would Plan B them. Give them one warning and if they don't respect your boundaries then do it.

I can see a strong woman under there...but until you are in a true Plan B and not listening to this crazy wayward drama all the time You instead are going to continue to second guess yourself and let his babble play mind games with you.

Your IM is lucky to have ML coaching her!

That is something a WAYWARD would say. Your MIL was passing on fogbabble to you. My question to her would be: how many of those people that told him not to meet your conditions are married to him? Unless he is a bigamist, I would guess ZERO.

It's really cute to have such opinions when it is not their ox getting gored, isn't it?

Yes, I told MIL this morning to not to tell me anything else he has said and I need to not hear their opinions. After all he is their son and as much as I know they support me and want us to be together they will still want to protect him in the long run. Their reasoning was if he quits his job and we dont work out then the has nothing to support himself with. Which I pointed out to her is lame, its not going to be that hard for him to find a new job in our county, he has connections that he could use and so far he hasnt even tried so that says enough right there

Ya they def do not understand the fog and seem to take everything he says as truth which is crazy.

I need to be honest though about my reservations with plan B. WS or not, anyone is going to take the filing of divorce as an intent to end a marriage, regardless of what has been said beforehand. So it makes me feel the need to communicate to WH that my feelings have not changed but I have to do this to protect myself because I dont know if/when he will ever commit to me. Yes I gave the plan B letter, but so much has happened since then I would not blame anyone for doubting my intentions.

But, I'm guessing you are going to say, my feelings dont matter. He is going to do what he wants regardless of what I say or do, right? I just need to keep hearing it...

It would have to be a choice between his marriage and his little job. He can't have both. However, he can have both if he leaves that job and gets another. does she want him to destroy his marriage?

You could send him a little note through your sister and say something like:

Dear WH, I wanted to make sure you understood that I still mean what I said in my letter dated June XX, 2017. I am willing to consider reconciliation under certain conditions, ie: ending your affair and leaving that job. If those conditions are met, I would be willing to discuss our future. I had to file for divorce to protect myself and the kids from your affair. That can change if we do reconcile.

all my love, amac

Yes, I like that idea. The lawyer is going to send him a letter today with the divorce petition, I contemplated putting something like that in the letter. Do you think its better through my sister or the lawyer?

How do you handle Plan B with a lawyer? My lawyer just called and said as they were about to email WH the divorce notice he called fishing for info. Told them not to email the divorce papers because "he didn't know who had access to his email" and asked it to be sent to a PO box where he works. He also asked that the divorce petition be sealed. All of this tells me that OW has access to his email and he doesn't want her to see that I'm the one who filed; I suspect he wants to lie to her and tell her it was him. Now I feel bad for OWBH because he won't know the truth of what's going on, and I think it will mess with their relationship to know that I filed.

I know I'm not supposed to be involved in this drama anymore so what boundaries do I give my lawyer? And should I let OWBH know?

I would call the OWH and tell him everything. Tell him you suspect your WH is lying to the OW. And I would not allow your attorney to seal the divorce. You have no reason to do so.

Thanks Melody! I don't have OWH phone number, just an email address which I know OW has access to because she saw that I had emailed him and then threatened me with a restraining order. So whatever i send to him, she will see as well, but i think is good actually. No way the divorce is getting sealed. Just shows how out of his mind my WH, being a family law attorney he should know thats not happening so weird to even ask.

HAve you ever personally spoken to him?

In what way did you communicate with him?

No, I have wanted to. I did a background search and got some numbers and emails and tried all of them but never got a phone number that I could tie to him. He did respond to the emails I sent and I gave him my phone number in the email but he just responded to the emails. I was concerned that it could be OW but he said things like he hoped me and H would work it out and he was trying on his side. He was pretty standoffish though and would not respond for a few days after I would send an email. After a week of us exchanging emails and after i emailed OW family on Facebook she emailed me and said she know I had contacted her H. I never heard from him again after that.

I did email him tonight and told him I filed for divorce and that H told me over the weekend it was done with him and OW but I know it was a lie. I also told him i still love H and don't want to divorce but need to protect myself and our children from the drama.

Do you have his address?

I doubt her husband even knows about the affair. She probably wrote all the emails and then threatened you with a RO so you wouldn't take it further.

I got an address from the background search but can't be sure if its his

I would find a way to get ahold of him directly. Do you know where he works?

But I don't think if it were her in the emails she would tell me to "work on my marriage" no way. And WH has told me, and i saw in the texts and email I have seen between them that they discussed her family finding out. WH also told me and his family that OWH called him a couple weeks ago, but he would not tell me the details of their conversation.

No. WH has said he doesn't work and lives off a family trust. The email address that he used to respond to me referred to a company, but it is no longer in business.

I absolutely do think she would say that. I know of many OW who have said that very thing.


That is exactly what I would tell you if I were your H and wanted to make sure you didn't contact my OW's husband. How else would he keep you from busting her?

Do you know where the OWH works?

I bet he has no idea about this affair.

What about the emails i found that they sent to each other? In them they talk about their spouses finding out and wanting them back. He has to know, I just don't know how much and ya, not sure about the emails with me.

What can I do?

I can't believe you would say he knows when you have absolutely no evidence of any such thing. the OW is a liar who would tell your H anything if it served her purposes. For all you know, he has no earthly idea. And perhaps he does, but you need to verify it.



What is your plan?

I agree, until you've spoken to OWBH yourself you can figure he doesn't know about the affair. We've seen it many times where the OM/OW intercept the messages and respond as the BH/BW and the whole time the BS is totally in the dark.

Do you know where he works? Can you go to the address you know and see if it is him? Can you hire a PI to track him down?

OW & BH live 2 hours from me, the address I have is in that area. I really do not want to go out there. I do not know where he works, what H has said is that he does not work and lives off of a family trust.

I have a phone number that could be his. I have tried it a no one answers. Should I leave a voicemail?

I'm feeling quite a mess right now; its my birthday tomorrow and my daughters next week. I dont know that I want the drama that tracking him down and continuing to try to contact is going to bring. Is it worth it?

HELL YES it is worth it. If he doesn't know, which I suspect, he could be the key.

Should I leave a voicemail?

Can you afford a PI to confirm that's the correct address and then drive there and expose to her BH?

No I could not afford that. Already I don't know how i will pay the mortgage on our house without WS giving me money, and since I make more then him its likely that I would have to give him money. Such a messed up system.

I do believe that 2 of the phone numbers I have could be a landline and cell for him. I have called and both ring and go to message, but I think eventually maybe he will pick up if I keep calling?

With the email exchanges I have had I do believe that maybe the first 3 were him, the last one was written differently and it was after that one that OW threatened me with a RO. My feeling is that it was him for the first ones and she saw it and wrote to me asking what my situation. There has been no response to my last email where I wrote that I have filed for divorce.

When you do call the numbers, are you blocking your number?

I'm calling from my work phone line. The ID that shows up is not my direct line and it is not a number that can be called back.

I tested it by blocking the number that shows up on the ID and tried calling my cell from my work line and it went straight to voicemail like a blocked call. That isn't what happens when I call the numbers; it rings a bit and then goes to voice mail.

So it sounds like he has blocked calls that show up blocked. Maybe you should try calling from a different number that isn't yours or your work numbers? I'm sure his wife knows your work number?

she wouldn't know my work number, whenever I call from my work line it doesn't show my actual number, it shows a fake number that can't be called back. I will try calling from another number.

I downloaded an app that can change your caller ID number. I made my caller ID number a phone number I got from the background check of OWBH that is listed as a landline and called the number that is listed in the background check as a cell. A woman answered and said hello and I could hear a child in the background. I didn't know what to do so I just hung up. I want to call the landline number also from this app, but feel like I should not do it now otherwise it will be suspicious.

I'm guessing it could be OW who picked up the number listed as OWBH cell? Or it could just be a totally wrong number, but I know that one of the other cell numbers listed in the background check belongs to OW, so it was right about that much.

Also, my scary WH blocked a ton of numbers in my phone which I went back and unblocked and matched them up to the background check. I think he used the same background check that I did and blocked all the numbers in my phone that were listed from OWBH and OW sibilings.

Anything else I can do or try short of hiring a PI (which I cannot do financially)?

Your WH's actions and the lengths to which OW is going to stop you from exposing to her BH tells me that this exposure is extremely important.

I would do whatever it takes (take loan/credit card out, borrow money from a friend or family member, sell something in your house, etc) to hire a PI and find out everything you can about this man so that you can track him down and expose to him.

WH put the numbers in there before I discovered the A, I'm sure to prevent them from contacting me. I sent facebook messages to OW sibilings and a friend on facebook and she threatened me with an RO after that, so they must have gotten the message and told her. So I know that at least OW sibilings know. But yes, not sure about BH. I know at least 1 of the emails was not the person who was writing before; the language was different and it was in the middle of the night when all the other emails had been in the mid afternoon. I know OW is up late chatting with my WH so I figure that one was her.

I'm nervous about this whole adoption thing. The way my WH has painted it is tht everyone on OW side knows about the A but are not exposing it because it would impact their adoption, which doesnt make sense to me, but if that is the case and I expose and it effects the adoption they all will be livid. Not that I think the poor child should be brought into that situation.

You need to step it up and get this done. This has gone undone for a long time and you have had plenty of time to figure it out.

Why in the world would you be nervous WHEN THEY ARE NOT? If this was an issue to her, she wouldn't be taking the risk. So obviously it is not an issue. It was a pack of lies heaped on you to trick you into keeping their affair secret.

You need to stop it now and stop listening to stupid, insane excuses that were served up to trick you into protecting their affair.

I also don't understand why (a) you would be nervous and (b) you would believe a word of this nonsense anyway.

Get this thing done, amac. ASAP.

What exactly? Get a PI to get accurate numbers so I can call? Go have an enveloped Delivered to his house with the emails? What exactly should I do?

Figure it out. Drive to his house, his workplace, do what you need to do to expose to him. You need to figure this out and get it done.

WHAT EXACTLY = exposing directly the to the OWH.

How do you reconcile doing that with Plan B? Me driving the 2 hours to that area is going to be so traumatic. And going to her house and potentially seeing her! All I have is an address and just like all the phone numbers I can't be sure if it is correct and if he would even be home.

I don't have to reconcile it at all. It has to be done and should have been done a long time ago. I don't understand why you have not done this. You are a bright woman; way too bright to be punked by a stupid OW.


You need to man up and get this job done! You can't afford to leave this stone unturned.

Is it possible that you really don't understand the importance of this step?

Yes I understand the importance but I don't want to run around like a chicken with my head cut off without a plan. Driving 2 hours to a maybe address to find a man who may or may not be there does not seem like a good plan.

What do people do in this situation? My options as I see them are: 1) mail a letter with the emails to his address and include my number, but if he never calls then what. 2) Continue to call the numbers I have hoping they are right and he picks up, 3) message people on facebook that i believe to be his family and tell them and include my number and ask them to have him call me (i messaged him already but it didn't go through), 4) hire a PI to track down concrete info (but at what time and expense i don't know)

And I have to admit, I am afraid of the consequences. My WH is spiteful. He will retaliate and do his best to hurt me. When I did the Facebook exposure he refused to give me the money he agreed and threatened to file for divorce so i couldn't take our kids out of state to a family reunion. And the aftermath of that is what made me make the decision to file for divorce. In the long run I do think it was good because she accused him of protecting me in that scenario but the short term was painful.

You need to figure this out.


That makes no sense whatsoever since you have told us all along the husband knows. The husband does not know, does he? Are you protecting the affair? If this is widely known, there should be no problem.

Your husband cannot retaliate because you have filed for divorce. If he DARED try something so stupid, the judge would make mincemeat of him.

Those are a couple of good places to start.

Amac, what is the big deal about driving to a location 2 hours away for something this important to your life?

You seem very bright, and I know you know that if you want something bad enough you can get it if you are tenacious about it. You ask which option you should do and my answer is ALL options. Do them all. Until you speak directly to OW BH, keep trying. If one method fails, try the next. If a phone call doesn't get through, try again the next day.

I think the real reason you have not done these things is not because you can't, it's too hard, it's impossible, you aren't smart enough to figure it out, you are not tenacious.... It is because you are afraid. Please don't be that person who hides under the rock out of fear. It will not help your marriage or yourself. It will be something you regret. Be strong here and get this done.

Do ALL of these things.

Yes please make it a priority to speak directly to the BH. Whatever you need to do to make the contact you need to do. We have seen many, many BSs come here and tell us that the other spouse knew and never told them. Please make sure the BH knows.

He cannot refuse to give you money that you are owed in a divorce and he cannot strip you of parental rights, like taking kids on a trip out of state ?? I went through an extremely NASTY divorce with a WS and he was not able to withhold funds from me and he was not able to stop me from taking my kids out of state on trips. And believe me, he would have had me thrown from my house while he and the OW moved in if he could have.

You should know these things.

amac, it sounds like you're making excuses because you really don't want to expose to the OW's H. Maybe you think your WH will really be done with the marriage if you do so?

Most WS's try to convince the BS of this because they fear that exposure the most...and it makes sense that it would because that is one of the MOST effective exposures to ending an affair.

You need to do this. Find a way to make it happen. Yes, that means driving 2 hrs or hiring a PI. You are a lawyer so I am certain you have the resources to figuring this out. Stop dragging this out and get it done.

In an old topic, I read this:

Until I was on this forum I assumed the husband did know because of what I had been told, what I read in the emails between WH and OW, and my email contact with him. But, you guys are right, it is suspect that I have not had direct contact and is responses were kind of weird. So although I think it is likely he knows, I do agree it needs to be confirmed in the least.

The big problem for me is that all of these actions to save my marriage are going to be contrary to my financial benefit. I'm IN CA, a no fault state. I make more money then H, under any scenario I have ran through with my lawyer, if he asks for it, I pay him spousal and child support. I filed for divorce under the reasoning that in the fog he is less likely to ask for those things, and until recently he has said he would not take money from me. But, I know that doing more exposure is going to piss him off and as retaliation he can go after me financially. That is my dilemma. Yes I want to expose and the affair to end to give our marriage a shot, but doing that will make WH mad and im sure he will go after me however he can.

In the divorce I would owe him since I make more money. I'm at his mercy now to hope that he does not ask for it out of guilt. In CA where I am at, once a divorce is filed either side cannnot take the kids out of state without written consent of the other parent.

I do want to expose! I thought I already had with the emails, but you guys are right it needs to be confirmed.

I'm not afraid so much of WH being really done with the marriage. I think his mindset right now is that it is done. I am afraid of the wrath though, he will try to hurt me if i take things further. Financially and emotionally.

Thank you.

I wrote another email to OWBH. I said I do not feel comfortable only communicating over email and will not be able to rest until I have spoken to him directly about the A. I gave my phone number again and asked him to call or send me his.

If its OWBH or OW, either way that email will make them afraid of me taking things further to get direct contact. IF OWBH does know he is def not exposing and so he should call to calm me down. If I do not hear from him in the next few days I will go onto the more drastic steps.

What could he possibly be mad about? He has said this is out in the open. Your H is not ashamed of his affair, is he?

Have you exposed to the OWs family yourself? Exposure can't be left up to the other BS.

I think WH is not really ashamed of his affair. I have exposed to all our family and friends and that has not stopped him. He gets mad in the moment but it has not been a deterrent. He got really mad when I did the facebook exposure to OW family and friends.

Yes I sent everyone I knew to be a relative of OW a message on facebook. I know they must have gotten it because she referred me contacting them in her lame cease and desist email to me.

Have you received any response to your emails?

No response to the one I sent last week telling OWBH I filed for divorce and no response to the one I sent yesterday asking for a phone number or call.

Ok, I would go to Plan B. What is your next plan of attack?

I've emailed some PIs, so far the only response I have gotten is more then I want to spend. Hoping to hear back from others.

Do you know where he works?

No. What I have been told is he does not work and lives off of a family trust. When I google the family there is info about the trust so that could be true.

Ok, I would start brainstorming next steps.

Amac, I have a strong feeling the OWH does not know about the affair. The OW has probably gone to great lengths to hide it from him. That tells me that she is not going to leave her marriage for this affair, and that exposure to the OWH may end the affair. You have a 50/50 chance that such an exposure would kill the affair. You can't afford to pass up that chance.

My biggest concern is that you are operating out of fear rather than strategy and not taking a proactive approach. When someone has this much trouble exposing it is always an issue of willingness rather than opportunity. I am asking that you take this more seriously and get the job done TODAY.

Just wanted to stop by this thread and give you some encouragement ~ lawyer to lawyer.

You are doing great so far. Nobody is perfect. It's not like anyone has the schema for this stuff so it's understandable really hard to expect a perfectly executed recovery plan. Just keep trying and don't give up. Remember, you are trying to SAVE your husband from making the biggest mistake of his life, not punish him. This is a non-vindictive noble effort you are undertaking because you have every legitimate reason, justification and excuse just to divorce his cliched {divorce attorney having an affair} butt.

One clue your IM's could look for as an indication he is serious about fulfilling your conditions is whether he starts floating his resume and/or contacting some friends about moving to another law firm. Considering California traffic, if he moved his job closer to home, that would make OW pretty geographically undesirable.

Some other thoughts -

You mentioned the OW is calling him for legal advice about the adoption and her marriage/potential divorce? Could you expose him at his workplace - and mention that maybe he's been giving out free legal advice on their dime {they pay him a salary}? Maybe she is or has been a client and having a sexual relationship with her violates law firm policies and he'd get fired? Maybe you can file an attorney grievance against him? I know that all sounds very extreme and maybe even against your financial interests {gets really scary with him being a family law attorney}, but in the end, he'll get another job and it'll all balance out. If you end up divorced, he'll play the co-parent game and try to be somewhat normal while I suggest you consider or try to adopt/implement a parallel parenting plan if you can in California.

Another thought ---- this potential adoption ~~ any chance you can contact all the potential independent adoption agencies and expose the affair to them and maybe save some poor infant the misfortune of being placed in that home right now - IF it's even true.

Next thought - If OWH's doesn't work and lives off a trust, I wonder how that works in California. I'm guessing if they divorce she might be entitled to a little support and child support but it's pretty likely or certain if he's a stay at home dad, he's likely going to at least get 50-50 custody and his wife isn't going to be able to touch the trust corpus. Unless the OW is herself wealthy or has a super high paying job (which could end up costing HER) or there is a pre-nup ---- it's most likely she's pretty financially stuck. Trolling out your husband in a chat room is pretty convenient for her because he's supposedly a rich attorney that can "save" her, however, the more you fight and drag out any divorce, the more her eventual and likely financial neediness could frustrate your husband AND his complaining about money, sour the OW about exactly how financially secure this move is for her and her kids. Your husband KNOWS how expensive divorce attorneys are so it's not a bad idea to drop to in-laws and sister or whomever will likely repeat it to your WH that you've been spending days with your lawyer strategizing this divorce and paperwork. Lead him to believe you are spending boatloads of family money on this. Of course, you should really keep your spending on your attorney to an absolute minimum right now and just drag this divorce out as long as humanly possible once the initial orders are in place but your WH doesn't have to know that.

Another long shot thought - carefully look over and contemplate upon any communication you receive/received from the OW and consider carefully whether there is anything actionable there that you could file a restraining order upon on behalf of yourself AND your kids. In some states you can get initial standing orders forbidding exposer of the children to paramours and forbidding unrelated overnight guests of the opposite sex. These would be MUTUAL obligations so they'd apply to both of you (not a problem, I presume, but it's less contentios when just inserted as a matter of fact). If not, an ancillary case seeking a restraining order might be possible to prevent the OW from being around your kids and/or you. Another cause of action MIGHT be extortion or blackmail. I've never seen anyone do it but a crafty lawyer might be able to sue an affair partner who threatens to sue you or call the police and exercise the power of the state upon you if you don't cease and desist from exercising your first amendment rights to free speech. I know, extortion usually involves money but if she and your husband get into a war of words where he starts threatening to demand alimony from you if you don't stop exposing, maybe you've got something there. Here's an article I just found that discusses some California cases involving attorney demand letters and blackmail/extortion. Maybe OW's emails stepped over that line already ----
When a Demand Letter becomes Extortion

Final thought - I don't mean to alarm you but if your husband had the gumption to block incoming phone numbers on your cell phone what makes you sure he didn't put spyware on it or isn't otherwise monitoring your phone and computer and hacking your emails? As a divorce attorney, he'd know all the tricks and he had the advantage of KNOWING he was cheating before you caught him. A knowledgeable cheater like this might have set up monitoring long before you caught him. Could he have microphones in your house, a tap on your internet connection, a VAR in your car and spyware everywhere? Maybe he's been reading along this thread the whole time and figures he's just accumulating evidence while getting all the contact he really needs ---- basically if he's reading along he's thinking he's still got today and tomorrow to continue the affair because you aren't really done with him yet. You see - he's like an addict and he's not gonna quit until he's truly hit rock bottom. Addicts just bargain for one more day at a time. I'm not saying he is but you should investigate everything carefully. If there are things in your house after he left, they'd need to be plugged in because batteries longterm aren't reliable so search all outlets and figure out what all cords are connected to, especially around your home wi-fi and computer connections inside and outside the home. Change passwords to EVERYTHING, starting with your cloud back up stuff and then once done, change them AGAIN on a safe device like your sister's computer, in case he was getting notices or monitoring the devices the first time. You don't have to take it to some computer or phone experts - often teenagers are the best source of asking because they are adept at figuring out if their parents are monitoring them and how to ascertain that and work around it. He MAY have even cloned your phone??? who knows??? If you figure out you've been compromised here, email the moderators and let them know and they can maybe try to figure something out to keep getting you the help you need.

If you are a Christian or otherwise religious, pray for your husband. Actually, I read you went to your bishop earlier in the thread so you are Christian. Would the Bishop pursue Church Discipline against him and excommunicate him or is it not that kind of church???? Your husband certainly isn't in a leadership role there, because, if so, he should be removed from it immediately. At the very least update the Bishop and request the Bishop share it with his prayer team and get others praying for your husband. Sometimes it takes a community of believers and a whole lot of faith to displace these really nasty demons. See the stories and what Jesus said where even the disciples had difficulty driving out a demon - Matthew 17:14-20; Mark 9:14-29; Luke 9:37-43.

I know. I'm trying. I have continued to call the numbers I have and no answer. I have reached out to PIs. I'm having a more extensive background check done that I'm told will get me more accurate information then I have.

Thanks Mr. Wondering for your encouragement. I really need it.

As far as the job condition. WH has told my IM and my inlaws that he has been working on updating his resume. But, I have his old phone with his Facebook messenger on there. When i first discovered the affair and he agreed he needed to work in our county he messaged paralegals on there that he used to work with about giving his resume. One even said to send on her way...this was in May right before i found out they were still in contact. Since we have separated he has not messaged on them again. I gave the phone to a friend so I would stop looking at it, but last I checked 2 weeks ago he had not reached out, so that tells me he is not looking.

Almost everyone who has heard about our situation thinks that OW must have been a client at some point, but I have found parts of their chat history that seems to confirm their story of meeting a chat room. In terms of a grivance for any advice he is giving her, I have no proof of that only the snippets he has told me and I don't think its extreme enough for his firm to care. He has wrote in a letter to me and told my IM that he has told his boss about the situation and that the boss agreed he could avoid going to court where the OW lives. Of course I can't be sure if this is true or not. I would worry about interfering too much with his job because a) it would seriously hurt me financially, and b) he could file a lawsuit against me if what i tell them causes him to be fired.

As far as the adoption goes - OW has links on her page to the county adoption services where she lives so the adoption must be through there. Ive gone to the website and looked at the process and it does not line up with with WH and OW are saying. But, I know I won't be able to get any details about their specific adoption. Those kind of records are heavily protected and the PIs I have asked say they won't be able to find out specifics.

In terms of money for the OW. Ya i think if BH has a trust she will not get much from him. She is a nurse. I'm guessing makes around 90k. I think she and my H will be way worse financially then they would with their spouses. I think my H recognizes that but she thinks my WH is a hot shot lawyer, what she doesn't realize is that he does not make a much more then she does probably and he is 100k in student debt - good luck with that I intentionally put the retainer for the divorce on our joint credit card. its 3x the amount he spends on a retainer so I know that must have freaked him out. He told my IM after seeing that he hoped we could agree without lawyers - ya right.

OW has already threatened me with a RO which was ridiculous. I think that really hurt the A because WH said she was mad that he was protecting me and now he has mad because after that I wouldn't talk to him anymore and filed the divorce. I have discussed with my attorney putting a clause in any potential agreement that says the children are to not even meet a significant other for 1 year unless by written consent. But I know WH will probably just lie.

Before the separation i know he was getting into my phone and emails. After the separation I changed everything, even cancelled my old phone service and got a new one. Most of my accounts now of the 2 factor authentication also so if he tried to log on I would know. I'm pretty confident he does not have access to anything at this point.

I am not religious, but both of our families are mormon. I have asked everyone to pray for him. He did see the bishop and was supposedly starting the repentance process which could have lead to excoummincation but I don't know how that works if he is not going to church anyway. He did not go back for the 2nd meeting. You are right. it is a good idea for me to update the bishop and ask for more prayers.

Thanks again for your thoughts. Let me know if you can think of anything else...I need to remember what you said, its to help him from making the biggest mistake of his life.

Have you spoken to the bishop directly about the affair?

You can't ever trust that a WS has confessed an affair - that doesn't count as exposure because of the whitewashing and lying that occurs.

Yes the day after WH went i met with the bishop. Bishop said he was 80% truthful. He lied to him and said OW was getting a divorce. Bishop
Planned to confront him about lying at then next meeting but WH didn't go. WH said he went a couple weeks ago and met him again but I don't know if thats true or not.

amac, this is a gap that might be filled in by the OWH, which is why it is so critical you find him. He can do research on his end. I would step it up here and get in direct contact with him, even if you have to drive to his house.

I had the more extensive background check down. No new info unfortunately other then to verify that what I have is most likely correct. The check revealed that the number that I believe is OWH was recently opened in his name with ATT on 4/30/17. I called this number from the app a couple days ago and woman answered and there was a baby crying in the background. OW has a different phone number that i know is hers because i have seen it on my H phone and the phone records. So i'm guessing maybe she answered his phone?

I have continued to call from different numbers but no answer. Its a mobile number, should i just send a text? leave a voicemail? its hard because it seems that whatever I do OW may intercept it.

I do not feel comfortable going to the house. That is too volatile of a situation.

Also the check was not able to find any employment info so I'm guessing it is true that he just lives off the family trust

Just spoke to OWH! I called from another number and he answered. All my calls had been blocked by her i believe. He is a total enabler. He has know about my WH from the beginning, knew about their chatting, knew all the details of our life. She told him they were just friends. He said she is telling him she wants to separate at this point because she is trying to figure herself out. They do have an adoption pending but it is months away he thinks she is just staying in the house with him to get through the adoption.

I told him he has to put his foot down and not let her have her cake and eat it too. I will talk to him again in a few days. Problem is. I do think she is only sticking around for the adoption and does want to be with my H. From the emails I found she seems to be the aggressor so I don't know if him putting his foot down and kicking her out is a threat to her.

What should i tell him to do? I'm so scared of them separating because that means she could move down to my area and be around my WH and my kids! I don't want that. But I think as long as she is still in this enabling cycle with her husband their affair will never end.

I have an email i want to send to her about what her future is going to be like as the OW. probably not a good idea to send huh?

Ok I'm really freaking out now and want to talk to my WH. I know its bad I will just beg and yell but Im so scared of her moving out!

Good job, amac!!! So proud you finally got through to him!!

I would expose the affair to her family.They have a plan to leave their spouses and get together. Exposing it would ruin that plan. The best way to kill their affair is for her to move out and move in with your husband. The affair will crumble FAST that way.

You shouldn't count on him to help. He is a pansy.

It is a good idea, but your timing is wrong!!

FIRST, Expose the hell out of the affair to her family and friends. THEN send her a letter telling her there will be no future for her with your H because she will be eternally hated by your children and the inlaws for her part in breaking up their family. I will help you write it!

STOP!! You do not contact him, you need to focus on being STRATEGIC.. STRATEGIC, not reactionary.

Another way to get the OWH off his dead [censored] is to expose to his side of the family. Hopefully, he will have a sister, mother or brother who will push him to do something.

OWH said his family does know, he said specifically his sister and brother. He said her parents and siblings do know. I facebooked them already telling them about the affair. I don't know what any additional exposure would do at this point.

So he does need to to kick her out right? He knows it and he knows he has been enabling. He said he would get it done. I told him I would call him again in a few days. He says she wants to move into one of their rental properties but I told him no he can't let it be easy for her.

But how do I survive this? i cannot stand the idea of it, but I guess it has to happen? I think my H will miss me and our family and eventually resent her. But i don't know about her, i don't think she loves her H and doesn't seem to care much about her adopted children so it seems like no matter what she will be hanging on my H.

I bet he tells her that I talked to him and everything I said.

Good job amac for finally getting a hold of the OWBH.

From your exposure to OW's family did you receive any messages back?

Who on OW's side have you exposed to? Who on OWBH's side have you exposed to? You can't trust an enabling BH to properly expose.

If OW does tell your WH about you talking with OWBH then you know they are still in contact and the affair is still active.

He shouldn't kick her out. He should raise hell in the affair. For example, he could reach out to her family members, tell them about the affair and ask them to intervene. For example, her parents could call your H and tell him to take a hike.

How did your H and his wife meet? Does he know how?


That is the point. Of course he should be talking to her about it. If you know of any exposure targets that AREN'T speaking to the affairees, I would ask them to step up and help out here. Are her family members speaking to her about the affair?

The affair is active. She already knows this.

OWH confirmed they met in a chat room. He knew about their interaction all along he said. So sick, he knew when I had my son, when he was in the hospital, small details like when I was going car shopping. He said he was naive and thought they were just friends because she chatted with a lot of people. I do not understand how he has put up with this for so long. My family speculates that maybe he is a cheater too...

OWH Said he has reached out to her family and they have told her to stop. I Facebook messaged them also (no response though but i know they got it). WH said one of OW brothers even contacted him.

Guys, more exposure is not going to work. Both of them have got it from multiple angles for months now and its not stopping. My H is not going to care what her family says to him. I know he knows their relationship is doomed, he just cares about the short term. He said to me and his family that he knows he is just going to end up alone and is destined for only short term relationships.

I read somewhere else in these forums that exposure just speeds up what was going to happen anyway. In my case, I believe the exposure is not stopping the affair, it is pushing them together. But I feel that it has to happen. I don't see how my marriage would be safe while they both still have the fantasy of what it could have been like if they were together. I wish my WH had the strength to cut it off but i know recovery will be hard and as long as that fantasy is there they would go back to each other, the temptation is too great for them.

So I feel like they have to be together outside of the affair setting - but how do I survive that? As a female prosecutor, I have many woman colleagues who have suffered this same scenario. The husband feels emasculated being with a powerful woman and cheats. Most cases they don't get back together, either when the H comes crawling back the woman doesn't want him anymore or both of them have ended up alone. I know I should not be hanging around waiting and hoping for WH to come around, but at the same time I want to want him back. But if he and OW move into together and my kids are around them I don't know how I could get over that.

You did a great job on the exposure!

I know it might feel like it didn't help, but in the end, no matter what happens, you will take comfort in the fact that you did all you could to save your marriage and you won't have to wonder or worry that the OWH wasn't informed.

All waywards are not really thinking about the big picture realistically speaking. They all have some kind of weird fantasy about the affair that isn't aligned with reality. They really only care about getting their fix (contact) and don't care what they have to say or do to keep it going.

Don't write your WH off as some kind of special wayward. He's not. He's just like all the rest.

It concerns me when you say this because I have a sense you have not exposed in a proactive manner and have missed many opportunities. This is not a check the box exercise. Getting you to take any steps has been like pulling teeth so when we could propel you to action, it was only enough to check the box and not a proactive, comprehensive effort. Comments like this tell me you are not serious about this step:


Was he expected to keep it secret? Keeping it secret completely negates the entire purpose of exposure.

You then tell us:
Knows what? That the OW has a "friend?" He thought they were friends so why would he tell them something else? You told us this above:
You told us this on 6-13-2017
But, you were supposedly told this weekend by the OWH, your first conversation, that her family knew and asked them to stop. Even though it was not known this was an affair.

See, this is why they have to be told BY YOU, to ensure they have the full story. Once again, you are checking the box here in an attempt to get us to back off exposure. I went back and read some of your first posts and noticed how you told us this was all exposed. I was always very suspicious and now I know why. It wasn't really done. You swept it all under the rug.


That's right, you don't know. Because you have never saved a marriage using these tactics. WE HAVE.

I just want to encourage you to put aside you own biased, un-objective feelings about this situation and follow some best practices.

I noticed a lot of people are using that excuse when a man cheats on a woman - that the woman was successful/powerful and the man felt emasculated. My ex MIL told my DD that my ex was emasculated by me (puke).

If you were to look closely at these marriages you would see that EPs were not being followed (opposite sex friendships, etc). It happens in marriages all the time every day.

Don't file your WH away into some category that makes recovery or your situation different than others. Ok? You're going to make yourself crazy going down that road and thinking these kinds of things. It's really all about EPs.

Can I ask how you would even know her family asked them to stop? You have never spoken to them.

This is your best leverage. Explain to enabling OWBH that the adoption will blow up if he does not fight for his marriage.

When I wrote those earlier posts I believed that affair had been exposed based on my emails with OWH. I asked him in the emails if her family knew about the affair and he said her parents did and they asked her to stop. This was coorborated in my phone conversation with him yesterday. Also the emails I found between OW and WH they talk about her family knowing. So yes I believe the affair has been exposed to OW family, I facebooked messaged them as well. In my conversation with OWH last night I told him to tell everyone. OWH said his brother and sister know about the affair, he said his brother said this situation is BS and has gotten a lawyer for him. I'm not hiding it, I believed it had happened in those earlier posts and my phone conversation with OWH confirmed that.

Yes I admit the exposure is hard for me, I have to force myself to do it because the short term consequences are horrible but I have been doing it because I trust that it is for the long term goal.

What do you suggest I do now?

What can he do to fight for his marriage? I agree the adoption is the best leverage.

Should he threaten divorce unless she stops contact?

What should I tell the family members to say to her?

What should I tell the family members to say to my H?

He should not threaten divorce, he should fight the affair. What you and he should do is cause as much trouble as possible in the affair. For example, you should call her parents and use the talking points in my exposure thread. Use the suggestions for exposure that you have been given. Ask him to call your H's parents and ask them to use their influence to persuade their son to leave his wife alone.

There is a lot of "they know" about the affair, but it doesn't seem they really do know. And I don't understand how her parents could "know" if the OWH thought it was a friendship.

I want to clarify that the purpose of exposure is not to spread gossip, but to enlist support and apply pressure to the affair. If the affairees do not even know these ppl know, the purpose is negated. And sure, some ppl will not reach out to the affairee, but the affairee should find out about the exposures regardless.

I want to make sure you know this, because yesterday you mentioned your concern that the OWH would tell the OW you spoke.

Did you read my exposure thread?

He thought it was a friendship when they first started chatting. He said she was talking to alot of people and would tell him about who they chatted with. He said he was naive but she has since told him that she is in love with my H.

Your right, I was just concerned if OW knew about our contact she would find ways to block me again.

Yes I was just re- reading it.

Ok, I have potential phone numbers of OW sibilings, I will call them. I will ask them to call my H.

I know I should ask OWH to call my in laws, but I know they wont like it! Since I filed for divorce they have been a bit reticent towards me and now have the mind that I should just "let it go." I think they would just tell me to stop these things and it would make my H feel more justified in his position towards me.

GEt ahold of her parents and family members and ask them to reach out to HER, not your H.


This has noting to do with you, their son is shagging his wife!! He has a right to ask them to persuade their son to leave his marriage alone. It is not your fault their son is having an affair with his wife.

Do they know you were pregnant and alone when your husband and OW were slaughtering your marriage?

Just had a long conversation with OW brother. Her family knows everything they have not been speaking to her for the last couple months when they found out about the affair. The OW brother said he tried to contact me but my ahole husband threatened them with a restraining order.

They have told me some really scary things about them. How OW is trying to get fake boobs now and is trying to get 1 million from her husband in order to make him divorce. I'm so disgusted right now. How can I fight for this man?

The OW brother gave him his mothers phone number and I am going to call her tonight.

Yes, brother said when they found out about the affair he looked me up on Facebook and saw that I was pregnant. The family sounds like good people. They do not approve of what she is doing at all.

But again, this has been going on for months. This exposure is not stopping them.

I am so disgusted. I want to call WH and tell him everything I know and ask him how can he be this person!!

First off, exposure only stops an affair dead in its tracks about 50% of the time. The longer the affair is kept secret, the harder it is to bust up, BUT it can hasten it's death. You should call the OW's parents and ask them to reach out to their daughter and ask her to end her affair.

Tell this to them: "there is no future for your daughter with my husband becasue she wll be eternally hated by my children and my inlaws for her part in breaking up our marriage."

You should also reach out to the OW and give her that same message.

Does the OW have a facebook page?

Yes. I plan to. OW brother gave me the mothers phone number and I will call her when she get off work.

She does. I looked up her family on there and that is how i was able to message them in the first place.

OW brother told me such horrible things. They don't seem to care about having no friends or family. He says they want to extort OWH for money and vacation for the rest of their lives. Truly evil.

Your WH and this OW have gone to extreme lengths to stop you from exposing. You told us you were afraid of making your WH angry with exposure, because he had gotten angry before.

Those are very good signs, amac. Stop writing exposure off before you've even completed this step, ok?!

What are good signs? OW family knows already and have told her to stop months ago and they aren't stopping. Same with my H.

I dont regert doing the exposure. I know it has to be done. And it is nice to see that OW family are actually good people which gives me some hope she has a conscious but exposure is doing nothing to deter them. I'm just getting more hopeless and disgusted with everything I hear.

I would expose to a crapload of her family and friends on facebook. Do you know how to do that?

I would reach out to her parents tonight and do a mass exposure on her facebook page. I don't think very many ppl do know or they have been told a spun version. You can bring mega pressure on her affair by exposing it.

yes thats what i did a month ago

WHAT was your letter? To how many people? What was the outcome?

And you have spoken to her parents tonight?

I facebooked message 10 ppl in June saying my name, that OW was having an affair with my H and it started when i was pregnant and was ongoing. That I have 2 small children and know she does to so please convince her to do the right thing and stop the affair and let me work on my marriage and for her to work on hers. She has her friends blocked so i could only message pppl who showed up in her posts.

I spent hours tonight talking to OW mother and OW brother. They are really good people. All the family knows of the affair according to them, they are not protecting OW. Most have stopped speaking to her because of it. They are all devasted as our families are. OW told them it wasn't physical but i told them it was and that OW even told me it was. OW AND OWH have separated now. OW Mother told OWH not to give her money and to make sure she takes the kids half the time. I feel better talking to them because OW mother says OW does love her husband and so do they so all the bs my WH has been feeding everyone about them only staying together for the adoption is not true. I can only hope that now that both of them are not getting their cake and eating it to that it can speed the death of it.

I have to confess I called WH. I told him that they told me all these horrible things about him but that I did not believe he was that person, told him i had taken our kids to church which shocked him, and yes tried to reason with him to no avail. I don't feel bad about the conversation though. OW texted her mother saying she was having a nervous breakdown because WH told her I had talked to all the family. I think talking to WH softened his perspective but she will be super pissed and I think that will cause tension with them.

I guess you prefer Plan C which is most likely to lead to divorce. Honestly I don't know what else to say to you about not contacting your WH and that trying to talk sense to him is not helpful.

Sigh.

Link:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2054223&page=8

That was my last shot. I give up.

So what were you saying about "exposure is not working?"

Melody I am a new user how do I post my story or can i PM you directly please?? it wont allow me to private message you?

KDK. I'm not Melody, but to start a new topic, go into forum that you want to post to but not open a topic, on the upper left there is a tab that says new topic.

I know. I understand I appear to be a lost cause.

This is what I'm grappling with in Plan B. I understand the aspect of it of protecting myself, and that benefit of no contact I can see for sure. However, it is hard for me to understand that absolutely no contact will help save my marriage. It just feels like I'm making it way too easy for them that way. OW is an extremely jealous person. My WH has said that and her brother even mentioned it yesterday. I know what she has access to his email and facebook to make sure we aren't in contact. If I'm total blackout that jealousy will not be fueled. None of my contact has been regular or consistent. I have not seen him in 2 months. I have had 2 phone conversations and sent 1 email during that time.

Also, another thing I'm having a hard time understanding is that we expose because we want as many people who have influence to use it on the WS right? So we are thinking that there are people that can talk them out of the fog?

I felt I had to contact him yesterday mostly because I wanted him to know I had talked to OW family. I do not believe they would have told OW I was in contact because the mom got mad when OW knew that we were talking.

Me too!!! I never knew it would save a marriage!

The issue is that you are allowing your emotions to overcome your logic. That is understandable, but it is very hard to help someone when they are too emotional to follow a plan.


I think that is so smart! How many marriages have you saved with this clever strategy? Shall we compare to Dr Harley's record?

Anyway, if you are going to follow PlanAmac and not Plan A, there is no need for us to waste our time here. I am a volunteer who has a full time career and a marriage and I don't have very much free time. Certainly not time to watch someone self destruct because she cant follow a plan.

That worked so well for you in the past! I say, go get em, tiger!

At 2am I got a text from OWH phone # with the same language of OW prior "cease and desist" email to me threatening a restraining order. Obviously OW using OWH phone. I texted back a cute picture of WH and me saying I would fight for my family.

WH told my IM this morning to no longer contact him at work and only talk through my lawyer. He told me in our phone conversation yesterday that his office advised him not to talk to me because of the pending divorce. But of course he tried to convince me on the phone last night that we should be having conversations about our feelings and the last thing he said to me was we'll talk again.

So I guess from the exposure they are both pissed. OW is obviously extremely mad about me contacting her H. I think it is part of her jealous streak. OW mother said that she was a mediator for them when they decided to separate Sunday night and OW demanded that he not date anyone - what a joke. OWH knows everything that I do so I dont know what they are worried about me spilling to him.

Ok Ok I get it. I want you guys to tell me I'm wrong so I dont do it again, but I need to understand it.

The issue is not your understanding, the issue is you going off half cocked with your own emotional reactions. An emotional reaction is not a plan and it will lead to disaster.

No, it's because you exposed her lies about her affair. She has been lying to people about it.

The more PISSED they are, the harder you hit the affair. if they weren't concerned about people knowing about their affair, they wouldn't care. They would have no reason to care.

You are missing the point of Plan B amac. Dr Harley recommends Plan B to women after 3 weeks, because continued contact with a bunch of wayward bull crap will cause *emotional and physical damage* to women after that. Plan B is to protect YOU from the drama. Is that what you want or do you love the drama so much you can't seem to let it go?

Do you not understand that trying to "reason" with a wayward is just a fancy way to say that you are DJ'ing and nagging him?

All you are doing is love busting him when you are trying to make him to do what you want him to do.

Have you read up on DJ's? (this is a serious question)

I find it hard to believe that "understanding" is the issue but rather that you WANT to be in contact, amac.

I posted this quote to you from Dr Harley. What is it that you do not understand about this:

How did contact help your M before you got here to MB?

Was nagging and DJing and trying to educate and reason with your WH getting you any closer to recovering your M all the months before you "started" Plan B?

I'm being serious.

Were DJ's a problem in your M before the A?

Demanding judgements? Thats exactly what I did. You are so right.

I dont think DJ was a problem before, but hard for me to know because I think we had that concept going on, I dont know the name, where each partner isnt in 100% vocal agreement with things? My WH and I never fought, like maybe 4 times before he started the A in our 8 year relationship. But I think that was because my WH never voiced any objection to things. It didnt feel to me that I was making DJs that he was going along with but I wonder if that was the case now.

Yes, they are really pissed. H just called my lawyer saying he was concerned about someone filing a RO against me. Now I'm pissed that he is costing us money with my lawyers time responding to this BS. I told my lawyer not to engage with him at all.

It's hard to remember that time before I came here and "started" plan B. I hadnt read surviving the affair yet. When I first found out about the A I instinctively went into Plan A. I think partly because I was just numb. There was no anger. I immediately said I forgave him, I think because I was so thankful because I thought he had ended the A. Then within 2 days I became aware of the contact and then was anger and I left him at home with the kids and went to a hotel for 2 days with limited contact, but via text he persuaded me to come home and start counselling. The following week he was still acting like he was in the A but I had no proof of contact and he was saying he needed time and space so there was little contact between us. Then I found proof of contact and had 3 days where I would not respond to him at all. Then we started communicating about kids and finances and then I read SAA and did the exposure which resulted in the RO threats which made me start what I thought Plan B was until you guys educated me that what I was doing was wrong and I started implementing plan B.

I think that might be part of my temptation to contact him now is because prior to Plan B, I had not tried to persuade him to stop the affair. It was him stopping the affair, me finding out it wasn't over, and then because I was so hurt, limited contact. So it was only in this "plan b" period that I began to think about wanting him to stop the affair and having all these reasons why in my head that I want to spill out to him.

But you are so right it is just the same as DJing and nagging. Totally the wrong thing to do.

You know, that would be really interesting to discuss their affair in open court. I bet the local news could get ahold of the story too! That's a great idea!

Yes. I was thinking of responding to OW saying I would love to discuss what she and my WH are doing in open court, but did not want to engage. And her family likes me now more then her right now so I dont want to do anything that comes off as vindictive.

I would respond with that. She has threatened this before and I would ENCOURAGE HER to bring it on. Call her bluff. Tell her something like:

"I would encourage you to press forward legally because I would love to discuss this in open court and put you through the discovery process, getting your affair into the court record. The local press loves cases like this."

LET HER KNOW her little threats are not scaring you. She has a lot of nerve threatening you when she is at high risk herself.

"I would encourage you to press forward legally because I would love to discuss your affair with my husband in open court and put you through the discovery process, getting it into the court record. The local press loves cases like this."

I would like to, but my attorney advised not to have any contact with her. I have already called her bluff with my lawyer telling H he wont even discuss it with him. My WH had asked for an appointment with my lawyer this week and I told him not to do it, waste of money.

But all of this I know is good for me. This is exactly what happened last time. OW wants to do a RO against me, WH wants to scare me, but does not really want her to file one against me and OW sees that, and thus accuses him of putting me before her.

And I have already responded telling her I would fight for my family and sent a picture of me and H. She knows I'm not threatened, thats why WH called my lawyer, he wants me to be scared.

Should I tell my in-laws about my conversations with the OWs family? I have not wanted to have much contact with MIL because in our last conversation she gave me alot of WH's fog babble. I hate to look like I'm tattling on WH, but I dont know what he tells them about whats going on. I think it's important for them to know that OW has seperated from her H, and of course I want to tell them all the bad stuff I have heard about OW from her family but don't know if I should.

I also want to tell MIL the things that OW's family told me about OW feelings for her H. They say she loves him and she has told him she will never divorce him. This is quite at opposite from the emails I have seen from her to WH. And I know WH has told MIL that OW H "understands their situation" and the same BS only together for the adoption story.

Absolutely! I would tell your MIL and ask her to share this intel with your WH.

Yes I was thinking it would be good if she told WH, thanks Melody.

I'm having a really hard time. Brought upon myself I know for calling WH. I told him at the end of our conservation "sign the papers, lets make an agreement and be done with it." Now he is doing what I asked. He signed the divorce acknowledgment, called my attorney to dicuss the details. But its becoming too real to me. I dont want this! I know I have to do it now while he is in the fog but I'm so distraught right now. I'm afraid I'm going to pled with him when he drops off our kids.

amac, you HAVE to get control of your emotions. You just MUST. Your desperation is placing you at a disadvantage because he knows you are not serious about ending contact until he ends his affair. You are sacrificing your leverage.

What can you do to gain control of yourself? You won't plead your way out of this. IT just pushes him away more.

And amac, wavering all over the place is not attractive at all. It will only make OW look that much better if you are an emotional mess. In addition to that, when this is all over one way or another, you will regret not being more in control. There is really NO upside to letting your emotions run the show. None.

Remove his number from your contacts, so if you want to call him, you will have to push more than one button. While pushing those buttons, remember to post here first.

The beauty of MB is that it is your step by step, day by day plan. Hold on to that if your emotions get in the way.

Have you talked to your doctor about some temporary ADs to help you through this?

Yes, you are right, he knows I'm not serious about no contact. I called out for him after he dropped off the kids. He said he knew I was going to do that sometime soon.

I didn't beg and pled, I just told him I loved him and that we were divorcing not because I didn't love him or I couldn't forgive him but because he wouldn't stop contact. I told him we have to move forward with the divorce and he looked surprised.

I just felt I had to see him and have him see me. It has been 2 months. With all the emotional turmoil I have been through with this I have lost all my baby weight and look like I did when we got married. I wanted him to see that.

My plan b breaks keep getting me into this cycle, my call to him last week ended up being more angry then I intended so I felt I had to do this contact to have "the last contact" be a positive one.

I'm wondering if I should get counselling with Dr. Harely for myself during this time? I went back to the counselor that we saw right after I found out about the affair and she told me I wouldnt want him back, which kind of offended me so I havent wanted to go back but yes, I do need to get a hold of my emotions somehow.

Sorry Melody. You have given such great advice and I keep screwing up. So strange. WH has accused me of being cold and unemotional and I've also been the person that friends come to for straight forward logical advice. But going through this has made me a different person to it seems. I keep thinking of a quote I read once "grief doesn't change you, it reveals you."

Yes, I have removed him from my phone so at least I'm not capable of the spontaneous text.

Thank goodness for MB. I'm a person who always needs a plan, now I just need to actually follow it

You are right, I need to not be an emotional mess. So unattractive.

I have. I started on Lexapro 2 weeks ago. Dr. said it would make things worse for the 1st 2 weeks, and yes that def happened. I think it is starting to help now but Dr. said 8 weeks for full effect! Ugh.

amac, you are not a different person. You are the same amac but are going through the most traumatic ordeal that can happen to a person. It is almost impossible to keep a level head. This is why it is so important to set up a Plan B where you are protected from the WS and not in a chronic state of being triggered. Seeing him every time he drops off those kids keeps you in this state and prevents you from withdrawing like most ppl would in Plan B. A true plan B will give you complete relief and the ability to use better judgment and more emotional control.

I would focus 100%% on finding way to do these exchanges so you are not persistently exposed to him. you have to LET GO.

Grief DAMAGES a person. You are going through the worst thing you could ever experience. You need to give yourself a break, hon.

I usually dont see him in the kid exchange, this is the first time in 2 months and it happened because I called out to him as he was leaving. But so bad I know, I set a precedent now.

Should I be letting go? Thats the hard part. When I have hope it seems more bearable. When I try to let go is when I can't take it. So I tell myself I dont have to mourn it yet because its not really over. But should I mourn it and let go even though its going to be an awful process?

amac, you're not hearing us. We've been trying to tell you for a while. You have to change this exchange system. It is keeping you triggered and stuck.

Do you want to feel the same way you do right now in a year from now? Two years from now?

I don't care what my WxH does. He is remarried and has children with his new wife. It does not bother me in the least. However I see women and men on this forum that do not go into Plan B and they are no better off years after the divorce. They are either angry, in counseling, still in love/obsessed with their exes or a combination of all of the above.

I see that in your future if you do not close up these gaps. Him coming to your house isn't going to work.

If you were in a TRUE dark Plan B, you would not even need to ask yourself this question. It would just gradually happen on its own.

Honestly, I dont feel triggered by the exchange system. I was shocked that WH actually did the things required to start the divorce and it panicked me and I took the drop off as an opportunity for contact. Even with a babysitter, knowing the time when he comes to the house if I wanted to contact it wouldnt stop me from doing it. I need to get to a place were I dont want it. And yes, the dark Plan B is the only way that will happen.

I'm comforted to hear i will gradually let go with the dark Plan B, that is good motivation for me.

You aren't necessarily going to feel triggered. That's not how this works. You aren't going to be able to pinpoint the "important" areas to work on by saying, ohh, that caused a reaction or emotion.

The point is that you keep on breaking your Plan B and you are not healing the way a BS does when they go dark and start to withdraw. When that happens, you need to look at ALL of the holes and then close them. All of them. You don't pick and choose based on the BS's level of feeling "triggered".

I know that personally when the exchange location was moved away from my house (and my WxH did not come up to the door to drop off, he stayed at the end of the driveway which is over 100' from my front door) it made a HUGE difference in my recovery.

We are not comforted at all because we know you will never let go because you are not In an air tight plan b. You are perpetually triggered and it will get worse. You have to let go and go dark. Plan B is not working for this reason.

Betrayed spouses who refuse to go into plan b always claim they are not "triggered" as we watch them spiral out of control. People who are truly not "triggered" aren't making that claim.

But there will always be an excuse for contact. Well, I just had to tell him x, y or z about the kids. So and so that we knew is sick with cancer. Etc, etc etc.

And him coming to the door makes it too easy.



amac, you realize that you are speaking to somebody that has been through Plan B, right?

Plan B doesn't work that way. It doesn't "finally work" when the BS wakes up one day and doesn't want contact.

You need to close up the holes. Him coming to the door is a huge GAPING hole. I don't think you will find any poster who has been through Plan B who will tell you that's a good idea.

amac, what can you do to close the holes in your Plan B?

WH has been living at his paralegals house for the last 2 months. Now that the divorce is started he feels pressure to finally get an apartment (how he will afford it who knows). He said end of july to my atty, now is saying middle of the month. When that happens the exchange problem should be solved. He will pick them up from daycare and take them overnight and then drop them at daycare the next morning and then i would pick up from there.

Problem is who knows when he will really do that. I will try to think of some other way to do the exchange until then since I can't trust myself at this point. Now the exchange is going to be trigger because I made it one by contacting him!

No, that's not why. It is the set up itself that led to your confrontation. It is the trigger.

Can he pick them up from day care NOW and you have your babysitter be there when he drops them off?

I don't think you should wait until the middle of the month.

Agree. And those of us who have been in Plan B are telling you that having the WS walk up the the door would be a trigger for any of us.

I dont understand how a babysitter makes it different though. She goes and gets them from WH car? I would still be in the house to get them from the babysitter and know he is there.

I would need to not be there at all I guess, ugh but I hate having to be forced out of the house because of his presence.

You are obviously not "forced" to do any such thing. It would be an intelligent voluntary decision.

Susie had an affair xcellent suggestion!

The babysitter would make all the difference because you don't even need to be in the house. Even if you were there (I think for now it is better if you are not) she would be a buffer between you and your WH - she would walk to the kids to the car and he would no longer come up to the house.

"Forced out of the house"?!

Given that you have a demanding career and two small children, I can't think of a better opportunity to go do something GOOD for yourself vs sitting there in the house and thinking of your WH.

amac, I say this with all kindness, you've really got to start letting go of your WH and start building a life for yourself. It starts with little steps. You can do this.


The options are endless:
Go to the gym.
Go for a walk at a nearby trail.
Go shopping.
Go visit a friend.
Go get a pedicure or manicure.
Go get your hair done.
Go get something yummy to eat (a treat).
Go get a coffee and sit outside and people watch.
Go get some errands done.

oh boy, that is so bad!!

Haha I was confused!!

Hi amac, I have been reading some old threads for inspiration to get back on track with my own plan B - and I thought you might benefit from these posts too.

Here's another one

chalkncheese, thanks for posting these. I found the parts about the BS constantly replaying the past in their heads, trying to find out "why??", especially apropos. It's all wasted emotional energy, though it is difficult to break the habit.

These posts can really help those of us struggling with Plan B, or planning the start of Plan B.

I know with my activity on here it seems like I don't have a life and I sit at home pinning for WH. But I do! I have literally done in the last 2 months since separation everything that you suggested. I have made fun plans for me and the kids every single weekend and have gotten a babysitter for Saturday night almost every weekend so I could go out with friends. I went out of town for my birthday weekend and pampered myself. When WH has the kids I go to the gym, run errands, meet with friends. I joined a single parents website and have been talking to some single fathers.

I get frustrated I guess because in this situation I get told that all the time, use this opportunity to better your life etc. The thing is, I like my life! And I like who I am! I dont need this crisis to make me become a better person or turn my life around. Could I become a better person? Sure. I can workout more, I can spend more quality time with the kids, and obviously I could use some patience and acceptance.

My challenge is going to be to let go. I am a problem solver by nature and a fighter. Failure is not something I'm accustomed to. But at this point, I feel like I have done everything I could. It's not in my control and that is the hardest thing to face.

Plan B is the only thing I can control I guess. I need to make my holes the problem to be solved instead of WH.

Thank you, Chalk. This one particularly resonated with me. I definitely have a tendency to try to force responses. I need to "be still" and repeat it like a mantra.

I read your post about your thoughts behind your Plan B holes and I feel similarly. There is something about all of this that is intellectually stimulating and fascinating. I find myself wanting to hear about everyones stories of infidelity and what happened in the end and why. But just more evidence I think of my desire to have some control over my own situation.

Time to be still. Pray that we can get there.

I so get that!! I don't understand that advice at all. I do understand the advice to start focusing on your own life and that of your children. Which you are doing!! But when my H left I was too preoccupied with building my life up and trying to gain some stability to go off on some self improvement project. I was just fine, it was my life that was wrecked!


I understand. The key is learning to be strategic rather than reactive. A very hard thing for those of us who are very strong willed and reactive.


you got it!!

What are the thoughts on dating while in Plan B?

Im guessing generally frowned upon?

Seems like the quick fix to divert thoughts of WH. But could def mess with future reconciliation. But also, I think I would be less resentful of WH if we did reconile if I dated. Right now the longer this goes on the more bitter I get that I'm at home taking care of the kids while he is out running around.

Great idea!!! Just be sure and apologize to your husband for objecting to his affair!

Are you divorced?

Ok. Needed to hear it.

No. Divorce filed.

I know...

Filed for divorce does not mean divorced. It would be adultery (or infidelity at the least) to date while you are still married.

This is foggy thinking. In so many ways.

Your kids already have a wayward father. The last thing they need are two fogged out parents.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Obviously that would just make this situation worse. But going through this definitely makes you more aware of your emotional needs and the power of them.

I know I'm probably going to get scolded for even asking about this since its the product of breaking my Plan B, but I'm so curious, yes for my own situation but for WSs in general, at some point does the guilt and shame have an impact? WH got emotional when i saw him talking about the guilt and shame he feels every time he comes to the house to get the kids, and i can see it. He has lost almost 40 lbs and the shame is visible on him. Yet, he is not stopping what he is doing. I don't understand why anyone would want to live like that. He actually had the nerve to say to me "do you know how f--- my situation is?" And said that OW is a mess (now she is no longer getting her cake and eating it too). I'm not getting my hopes that it could be the beginning of the end but do like to hear that at she is a mess and motivates me to control my own emotions and do better with Plan B.

Is there some cycle that all WS go through, the way we do with a cycle of grief? My fear is the cycle with WSs is that they do feel the guilt and shame, but ironically, it is the AP that soothes them by telling them how great they are and they are not a bad person after all, and this just repeats over and over again.

It's the same cycle of guilt and grief an average heroin addict goes through. An average heroin addict also ruins family members who feel sympathetic to/sorry for them and keep letting them in, only to find out the addict steals money and valuables.

And until they are clean, they keep going back to the heroin to soothe them.

You are not in Plan B. You are in Plan C.

I noticed that you said you were talking to other single fathers and was not able to respond. Stop doing that. You are right that you are more vulnerable than ever right now, so now is the time to keep your boundaries very HIGH. If you are not divorced you are married, and getting into a relationship would be considered an affair. Not to mention the fact that you are probably the least likely to make good decisions for yourself now than ever before. Boundaries high my friend.

Now, where and how did you even see WH?

Yes I see that now that I should not have been doing that. It made me feel
More confused. I have stopped it. Almost everyone in my life has been encouraging me to date, even my in laws and in my conversation with OW mother she said "it wouldn't hurt to have other men coming around the house, just to give the impression...people always want what they can't have." I think the idea is if WH feels like he is going to replaced it will make him stop. But I know, it won't and it just will mess me up.

I haven't seen WH since the last time I posted about calling out to him when he dropped off the kids a couple weeks ago. I didn't post much about what was said because I know it's "fogbabble" and I shouldn't be trying to analyze it, but ya the guilt and shame comment stuck with me.

That's what I was afraid of and makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

This was not a new contact, part of what was said when I talked to him a couple weeks ago. It will be 2 weeks tomorrow with no contact.

Yes it is so great for you and your children to have strange men, you know the high caliber ones who get involved in messy marital situations, coming around the house

Have you read this and listened to the radio clips in here?
BSs......Plan C is not a Plan

Is he still coming to the house for child exchanges?

Thank you, I will listen to it.

Yes, he is still coming to the house for the exchanges. I know it needs to stop I just havent figured out a solution yet. He has said he is going to get an apartment by mid month (which is now) and then he would not need to come to the house for the exchanges, so part of me is waiting for that to happen. But who knows when or if he will do that. I think him getting an apartment of his own would be truly acknowledging that this is all happening and I think he prefers his fence sitting status. Also, even if he does get an apartment I dont know if I would agree to let him take the kids overnight. On one hand I think he needs to see what its going to be like to have to really care for them by himself, but on the other I dont want him to have them with the state he is in and I dont think it would be good for them to be displaced like that, especially the baby.

So I guess bottom line I need to figure something out. Not easy.

I thought I was having one of my calmest weeks yet, almost 3 weeks no contact with WH no drama....but I saw my sister, my IM yesterday and I mentioned how a lot of people who hear about my situation say my WH is a sex addict and that I did not really think so but believed he is addicted to his affair. She then tells me at the end of July she received a text from WH cellphone at 1 am that said "There is a 3rd woman right now, amac (using my real name) should know. Then attached a picture of a chat history with my WH name and a conversation with someone that has him saying "hehe i'd be happy to oblige" and the other person talking about the kind of hotel her work is putting her up in. Thats its. That conversation was dated a week before the text to my IM, also took place at 1am.

Obviously, the text was from OW on WH cell. I don't know what to do with this information. Clearly she not telling me out of the goodness of her heart, she wants me to know so I'll be done with him. Unbelievable that she still wants him and is still separated from her BH for him as far as I know. And the conversation she sent is odd, like whatever came before the "id be happy to oblige" would have potentially been more incriminating but she did not include that.

I know I shouldn't even know about this, but I do. Part of me wants to reach out to OWBH and ask him what their status is and tell him about this supposed "3rd woman" and should I tell WH parents about this? They too believed he is not a sex addict and he has painted the picture to everyone that he is in love with OW and thats what his struggle is, but clearly he has a compulsion if he is still doing this chatting (if thats all it is).

You should not have heard about this. I know your sister means well, but this is just a meaningless distraction to your healing. You already know he is wayward and he actively sought out this affair. I would assume there is more than one OW frankly, because actively seeking out an affair is what a serial cheater does. But, this is not your concern right now. Let OW worry about the fact that if he does it with you, he'll do it to you. You have a life to build without him.

And why are you always so worried about what your soon to be ex inlaws believe??? Stop trying to convince them he is wrong. He has abondoned his wife and very young children for a married woman, if that isn't wrong enough they already have a poor moral compass.

And this isn't about a 'compulsion.' It is standard serial cheating behavior. Just because he has terrible morals doesn't mean he is a sex addict. It is so common for BS's to want to make sense of their WS reckless disgusting behavior in this way, but that doesn't make it true.

I hadn't been in the mind frame that he was a serial cheater. He admitted to having a pornography addiction and I believed that escalated to his chatting, which escalated to the affair. I had hope that once the affair ended it would end the cycle of addiction. Why does it matter whether its called sex addiction or serial cheating? The actions and results seem to be the same. So I guess there is no hope for my marriage, under either title.

I want to tell my inlaws not to convince them he is wrong, they know he is and have been supportive of me. I want to tell them because regardless of what happens to our marriage I'm bound to this man for life because of my kids and he is gonna need a support system somewhere if there is any hope of him becoming a better man and if they don't know all the facts they can't be helpful to him. I thought we were supposed to expose this kind of stuff.

The thing is, once you go into Plan B, you should no longer be hearing about his wayward behavior. Your focus shifts to your own personal healing. Unless he makes a major turnaround in his attitude and behavior (and it is your IMs job to decipher this based on his actions), assume he is going to act wayward.

I guess you are right that it doesn't matter what label you give to him, at the moment he is absolutely not suitable for marriage. My point was to caution you against trying to find some reason behind his behavior. Most people who want to label their wayward spouse as a sex addict seem to think that is a condition that can be cured. I don't want to see you go down that path.

The reality is he did go out trolling for action and seemingly continues to do so. That is serial cheating behavior, even if you happened to catch him on the first affair. He would have to make more drastic changes to be suitable for recovery than the average affair because of this.

Right now, I want you to stop thinking about what he is doing and who you need to expose this too and start thinking about actually going into Plan B. You have been told this many times. Unless and until he is showing in action that he is ready to meet your requirements, you need to shut him out of your life completely.

Posting to get some motivation. Ive spent the last couple days reading about other peoples experience in Plan B and taking notes on what has been told to others before. It helps because when you see other people breaking their Plan B and the repercussions that follow, it is never a good thing.

My status is pretty much the same. WH was supposed to respond to the divorce last friday, and did not. A divorce attorney who can't be bothered with his own divorce! I'm meeting my attorney on Tuesday, but they don't seem to bothered by his lack of response which is annoying to me. I feel like their should be some consequence to his lack of response but I guess its too early.

He is still coming to the house for the exchanges. Which means he is still couch surfing or he has gotten a place but does not want to take the kids with him which is a possibility.

So, I haven't had contact with him since I spoke to him at the exchange a month ago now, but this week has been rough. I went to wedding in DC last weekend. I was a bridesmaid, I was so worried about not being able to enjoy myself and being an emotional wreck, but I actually had a good time! But coming back to my reality this week has been hard. I had given WH old phone to a friend so I couldn't access it. But I saw her this week and wanted to check his work email to see how much he is getting paid this month. He has been clued in I'm afraid so he changed his Facebook password so I can no longer get into that and I didn't think the work emails would bother me, but when the phone turned on the app find my friends sent an alert and it said "OW is now sharing her location" and the time was 3:00am that morning, on a tuesday! Did not expect that. Shortly after that, I got a call from the Bishop. He was just calling to check up on me but it was hard to talk to him since just seeing his name on my caller ID made me have hope that maybe WH had gone back to see him. Bishop said he came about a month and a half ago when i made the seattle ultimatum, but hasn't been in touch since.

And today at the pickup I looked at the window and saw WH. I don't know why I did it. I know nothing good could come from it, but i did it anyway. I know more evidence that the exchange system needs to be changed but I'm really clueless about what to do. I did think about the babysitter but realized last weekend with my mom here that it actually would be more of a temptation for me. Because my mom was here it REALLY made me want to talk to WH because there was someone to watch the kids. After last time my daughter talked about WH more after seeing us together and I do not want that, so the fact that there is no one else here to watch them during the exchanges has prevented me from doing it. Im afraid with a babysitter I would be tempted to take advantage.

I'm ok most to the time. but a few times a day I get this panic feeling like, this can't be really happening and i have to do something to stop it! is that normal? will is go way? i am on AD's which have helped a bit but things are still pretty hard.

Hi Amac, it's nice to hear from you. I've been wondering how you are doing. Have you had any more thoughts about moving? Even though I have had my own struggles with plan B, I have to say that moving into a new place that is just mine with the kids has been the best possible thing I could have done for helping my personal healing. It does take some effort, but it gives you so much more control of your life and your happiness and really helps get you away from triggers that inadvertently keep you stuck in the WSs drama/crisis.



I used to feel like this just after I threw WH out in Feb. But then I came to understand that what we are doing with plan B IS doing the best possible thing we can do to stop it. Making WSs feel the consequences of their marriage-wrecking actions, and making sure they do not get to have their cake and eat it, is the only way to give them any kind of incentive to wake up. Nothing else has a hope of working.

Just want to point out that the last time you spoke to him, you did not have a babysitter, so this rationalization is ludicrous. You DESPERATELY want to see him which is why you won't find a solution to this problem. You were smart enough to pass the bar so I know you are smart enough to resolve this problem. You just WON'T, probably because you don't want to lose this fix.

How are you handing a 8 month old to him without seeing him?

I put the baby in his carseat and leave him on the porch while my daughter gets WH in the driveway. When he returns them he leaves the baby in the carseat and my daughter at the door and knocks and leaves. I wait a bit to make sure he has left before opening the door. This only on Sundays. On tuesdays and thursdays he picks them up from daycare and drops them off as described. I have only physically had contact with him that 1 time in the 3 months of separation and the only other time i have even seen him is when I looked out the upstairs window yesterday.

I had thought this exchange would be somewhat temporary because WH should be getting a place to live where he can take the kids with him. But since it has been this long and he appears to be getting worse, I don't think I would let him take the kids overnight even if he had his own place. I'm considering proposing an agreement through my attorney that we keep the current custody status the same until next year regardless of his living situation. That way the kids have some stability and I'm not always waiting for things to change. Thats really making things easy for him though, but I don't know who he would expose them to so its probably the best thing for them. If he agrees to that then there will be more incentive for me to find a solution to this exchange.

Why not stop the Sunday visitations and stick to daycare only? This isn't good for you or the kids to have this set up. It puts your baby at risk and, as you have discovered, leads to Plan B breaks on your part. Just end it and be done with all this drama.

Is there a 24/7 daycare in your area that can manage the exchanges?

Once again, I am alarmed that you won't fix this problem. I have to assume you either a) don't take it seriously or b) really want to keep the contact with him.

No 24/7 daycares. I don't want to have contact with him. I admit I have those panic moments where I do but thats not all the time. The issue is to solve it means finding and paying for somewhere to do the exchange without me, and that is a lot of hassle that I keep postponing because I keep waiting for WH to get his own apartment so I won't have to worry about it anymore, but....

I just came for my lawyers office. They called WH last week to see the status of his response to the divorce. They said he mentioned reconciliation and said he was going to reach out to my sister this weekend, but "not to tell him because he didn't want to get my hopes up." F-U man! You should be begging to come back. I haven't heard anything from my sister so as predicted either he did not reach out or did and has not met my conditions. Regardless, I want to move forward but I'm in a bad position. Since he is not responding I could get a default divorce but my lawyer says here in CA all property would be split 50/50 which I do not want! That would mean he gets his interest in the house and 50% of my pension. He has told me many times that he would never take money from me or go after my pension so I know that getting an agreement with him is my only hope of a favorable resolution.

My plan is to ask him to give me the house, agree to waive all spousal support from me, waive any rights to my pension, and give me all the money that is in my bank account. As well as leave the custody situation as is until next year and to start paying me child support since he sees the kids about 5% of the time. My attorney thinks I'm asking for the moon but I think since he is in the fog and feels guilty he will give me most of what I want, just not sure what he will say about the house. However, I know if i send this through my attorney he won't even consider it. I know this is not going to be liked, but I think I have to write him an email along with agreement. I need him to know its not out of vindictiveness but a plea to give me and our children some peace and stability. This never knowing when he will want to see the kids more or what I'm gonna do is unsettling, and i think by saying we can review the custody status next year it will make him more agreeable and give him all the time he wants to enjoy himself right now.

If he agrees to this then I know this situation will be in play for the next few months and I will come up with a solution to the exchange.

Hi Chalk,

So glad to read you got OC back! I do not know how you have survived this far. That is my biggest fear right now, that WH will impregnate someone. If that happened I think I might move But moving would be a big feat for me. I'm an attorney and here in the states you have to take an exam to practice in each state that takes months of studying for and is difficult. The only place i would move to is out of state closer to my parents. And I have a good job that I love that pays well with great retirement so it would be so hard to give up. I also have a good support network of friends where I'm at. Surprisingly my house doesn't trigger me at all, I think because we only moved here a year ago and WH was already checking out i don't associate him much with it, and I have worked so hard to make it a nice home for my kids I really don't want to leave it.

Its a very tough spot we are in. I think everyone around us wants us have this clear epiphany that we no longer love or want our WHs and to think life is better without them. Life is for sure better without their wayward drama, and thats what I keep telling myself. I have been happier in Plan B then I was with WH in the house the last few months during the affair and after its discovery. But my heart still has love for him, and my head still has all of our happy memories and the thought of my kids growing up in a broken home is really hard to stomach. Slowly but surely however, I'm able to face the reality of this more. 2 months ago I couldn't handle the thought of coming up with a divorce agreement, but now I'm eager to get it done. Not because I want it, but because I want some aspect of certainty in this chaos. So at least there is progress.

Like I said, you are still looking for excuses to stay in contact with him and now you have found another. You told me you weren't at the start of your post and then ended the post with .......another excuse to contact him! So, I rest my case.

All you are doing is setting yourself up for a grand FAIL by telling him that he has LEVERAGE and is in full control of you. In other words you are trying to negotiate with a terrorist. I am not sure why you think he would be persuaded by you. There is no reason and no benefit of contacting him directly, other than the fact that you want to get a fix. Just imagine how much it will hurt when he uses his leverage and you end up with nothing?

If this is true, your attorney can work this deal through the courts.

What is my best shot of getting him to agree? That is the most important thing to me right now.

Your lawyer could draft up a carefully worded agreement (under your direction of course) that says what you have said here; that he agreed to allow you to have the house and pension in return for . . . There is no need for your lawyer to be confrontational, he can use soft words like 'my client knows that you understand that peace and stability is the most important thing for your children'.

He is going to need to sign a legal document so there is no point in having an informal email exchange with him. That will not stand up in court. Just flatter him.

Who is the least objective person in this scenario?

That is a pretty entitled thing to say on his part. But, you can also see that he sees you as pining for him to the point you are just sitting around waiting for him to decide to take YOU back. This is the very (unattractive) portrayal we have been working hard to prevent you from giving him, by being firm and strong and sticking to your Plan B. The primary reason for Plan B is to protect you, but it has a side affect of showing him you are serious and have boundaries that you are NOT willing to negotiate, that you will not accept crumbs from a cheater. It shows STRENGTH and that although you want him in your life under the right conditions, you do not NEED him. Every time you break your Plan B it shows the opposite

I predict that you will continue to be in Plan C (yes, you are in Plan C) until you figure out this child exchange situation.

So long as you are in Plan C, you are going to continue to look for reasons to have contact with him. Having him come to the door is keeping you triggered and you are going to keep doing this.

It's lose-lose, because you are compromising your health and with every contact you make it more and more unlikely this will ever be recovered.

I think I know the reason why you are using this wording - because Dr Harley has used language about doing x, y or z different from his plans in order to get a quick divorce settlement due to a fogged out WS.

He does not mean to continuously delay Plan B for a BW - which is compromising your health. I have never heard him say that to a woman. He puts the woman's health at number 1. Not the divorce settlement.

And, amac, you have a very good job. While it might be sad to have to sell a car or a house and downsize to accommodate your financial situation - you are still in a good situation. We've seen stay-at-home moms here who have to move into shelters, back in with parents with 3 kids, etc. That's not you.

You should be focused on preserving your health and putting yourself in a position to be a GREAT mom to your kids. That's not where you are heading right now.

Yes my lawyer is drafting the agreement for him to sign with the things that I'm asking for, I never intended that to go in the email. And true, emailing is wrong on so many levels. OW monitors his email and I don't want a response from him. I will have my lawyer send the agreement, but I'm considering sending this note along with it. If he just sees the agreement without my rationale it looks like im just pissed and after him. Here is what I want to say:

WH,

Enclosed you will find my proposed settlement agreement. I wanted to write to you along with it because I wanted to give you my reasons for why I am asking for the things that I am. You have said all along that you would not take money from me, so I don't think asking for a waiver of spousal support or access to my pension will be disagreeable to you.

As I have said to you, I want to stay in the house with the kids, which is why I am asking for it. This benefits you too. If you force a sale of the house, who knows where I�ll go. Honestly, there are some days where I think maybe I should go to Utah and be with my family and start a whole new life. But, I want to stay in the house because I believe that is whats best for the kids. We are happy here. The daycare is good to them. And it will help you plan your future to know that this is where they will be.

As for the custody situation, I think it is in everyones best interest that we leave things as is for the rest of the year. Even if you were to get your own apartment right now, I would not agree to overnights. I think that would be very disruptive for the kids, particularly DS. It has been hard for me the last few months not knowing what your living situation is and when to expect you will want them more. It would give me some peace to know that this is how things will be for now. I think over the next few months it will give both of us time to get more emotionally removed from what has transpired so that we can be in a better place to decide what is best for them.

As for the holidays, you know I will make them more fun for the kids. My family is renting a cabin over Christmas and I would like to take the kids to Utah for Thanksgiving. I anticipate we will split holidays in the future, but this year, I hope you will let me have them.

You know what our finances are, and it will be more then a stretch for me to be able to pay the mortgage on my own salary, which is why I am asking for $1500 in child support. It will be tight for me to pay our bills with that but I think I could do it. I�m also asking for the money in our bank account so I have the funds to pay the property taxes.

As stated in the proposal, we can revaluate the custody situation at the beginning of the year at your request. For now I think what I have proposed is in the best interest of everyone.

My last request, please don't drag out this divorce. Right now, I'm still shocked, hurt, and sad. But I don't feel ill will towards you. I do think however if this gets dragged out ill feelings will be inevitable on both of our parts.

Please contact my attorney and let him know if this is agreeable to you. If not, I ask that in the least you start paying $1500 a month to me in child support in addition to your portion of the daycare expenses and whatever bills need to be taken care of. Please reach out to my attorney by 9/15 to give your response to this proposal.

Yes, I recognize my own bias which is what I'm posting here.

How about the note through my attorney? Not direct contact, he still can't get through to me, but at least I feel like I did what I could to try and persuade him.

I know its awful. He clearly does see me as pinning. But he has tried so many times with his words to reconcile and I haven't budged so I don't know why he thinks more talking to my sister would work. But yes, clearly my plan B breaks have given him that impression.

Problem is, he knows how opposed i am to divorce and our kids being raised in a broken home. What he doesnt realize yet, and what i was afraid of happening, his ability to not be involved in our kids lives over the last 3 months makes me prefer the prospect of divorce rather then a negligent father.

Thats a big reason why I filed the divorce right now, to take advantage of WH being in the fog. But its backwards for me. I understand why Dr. Harely advises it, because WS are too absorbed in their affair to participate and can be taken advantage of. But for me, his non participation puts me in a worse position. But, I still think now is the time for me because WH is couch surfing he has been able to accumulate 3 months of his pay so he has not felt the financial strain yet, but once he does have to get a place, and if he ever expects to live with OW (and her 2 kids) he is going to be dying financially and then would come after me. I have to act now and I don't see how sending a note through my attorney is going to be a trigger for me.

I realize that I am better off then a lot of women, but it also means I have more to lose.

My attorney was pressuring me yesterday about the no contact with WH, he says the courts won't like it and it makes me look "angry." But I explained to him exactly what you said, that having contact with him is emotionally damaging to me and effects my ability to be a good mom to my kids. I understand this. I don't want to be in Plan C. I do think month by month I have had improvements and I think I will continue to get better.

Hi Amac, make sure you also tell your attorney (and the court) that research shows there is no difference in outcomes between children of parents who stay together or divorce - except where they have been exposed to conflict between parents. I have had lots of problems with WH trying to challenge me not talking to him through courts and lawyers (he even managed to bribe his way to a court order that forced me to communicate with him directly in the country we were previously living in) but when I justify it like that - that I am doing it in order to protect my children from observing conflict - it has done the trick. I also got a social worker to confirm what I am saying about outcomes of children.

My WH used the fact that I said it was mentally and emotionally damaging for me to talk to him to demand that I have a psychological evaluation for my fitness to look after the children. It didn't come to anything, since I am obviously an extremely sane and rational person, and he has now run away and seems not to care about the children anyway, but it is still nice to know you have another approach if he tries that one.

Hi Amac, I would vote no to the note. Just let your attorney liaise with him. Do you think it will make a difference to his view of the settlement if he reads the rationale? We are not dealing with sane, empathetic individuals here. They only think of themselves.

The note will probably just make him think you can be persuaded - you are putting forward a case to him, which is an invitation for him to answer and negotiate. If you say nothing, and let your attorney send the proposal stating that this is the bare minimum YOU will accept (I also suggest inflating everything by at least 25% over and above what you really want to end up with, so that you can demonstrate you are willing to compromise by reducing some things), then you are taking a much more powerful stance to the negotiation.

Also, I have found it very helpful to do calculations of a few different financial scenarios pre, during and post-D so that I am absolutely 100% confident that the kids and i will be fine no matter what. I am also in a situation like you where I earn a good salary and have all the family assets in my name (and physical possession - which is even more important), so might lose out in the division of marital property. However, when I feel like WH has the upper hand in something, I try to work out why he has that power, and then act to change it. For example, rather than waiting for a court to decide about your house, and then having to sell it and divide the proceeds with WH, who we know will not use it wisely for the future of your children like you would do, is there a way you can take money out of it (by remortgaging, extending the mortgage, or selling and downsizing if you are able to do that without his consent) and put the money in a trust fund for your kids' college fees or something? If the money is protected in a fund for your children, you might be able to keep it out of the division of assets.

Great advice from Chalk. Print it out and pin it to the fridge!

The sense that I got in following this thread is that you felt following through on your ultimatum was important and that you wanted to put more pressure on your WH. It has seemed that you are desperate (understandably) to save your M - moreso than gaining a favorable divorce settlement. The numerous Plan B breaks in order to talk to your WH about his affair seems to support that.

Why am I saying this? Because you do this every time you want to break your Plan B. Now it's because of the divorce settlement. Down the road it will be another reason, then there will be yet another.

Posters like myself, MelodyLane, Brainhurts, unwritten and others who have been here for years and years have seen this, amac....the Plan B BW who keeps breaking Plan B and never really enters it. You will keep finding excuses to get sucked back into the drama, and we're trying to help you because the result is not good.


Sending the note being a trigger is missing the point. The point is that you continuously think you can talk your WH into doing things. The point is that you keep finding reasons to have contact with your WH and are not in a Plan B state of mind.

Nobody wants you to have a bad divorce settlement, amac. But you have an attorney - use him and the courts. Sending a note or having yet another conversation with your WH isn't going to help.

The whole "divorce quickly for a good settlement" is complicated in this case because your WH is a divorce lawyer anyway. I would stop focusing on that as a reason to break your Plan B and work with your attorney for the best outcome.

Have you read my Parallel Parenting in Plan B post? It's linked under my signature. There are good talking points in there.

Your WH doesn't have a place and hasn't had his young kids for an overnight visitation for months and months despite having a good job? Sorry, but your wanting to use an IM is nothing compared to that. Family judges do NOT like that.

Further, my exWH tried using the non-communication point against me and we (my attorney and I) calmly told the court that he was free to call me in case of emergency, that we had a schedule and that he could pass on messages - there was no anger but a desire to avoid escalating conflict. It was fine. The only real way I could see the judge/court using Plan B against you is if you go into court on a contempt charge of either you or your WH not following the parenting plan and your WH says there was confusion or mix up due to not communicating (this is based on my experience of going in and out of court with WH too many times to count).

You will continue to look for reasons to communicate/talk about/be involved in the drama surrounding your WH - for years -- if you don't work to turn this around, amac, starting with your WH coming up to your door every week. We've seen THAT Plan B betrayed wife here before many times and it's not what you want. It's really that simple.

]
Who said it was a "trigger?" It sends the very true message that:

1. you are not serious about no contact and will look for any excuse to reach out to him

2. you are desperate

3. he has leverage over you

You keep telling him that you don't want him to contact you unless he meets certain conditions and what do you do? You keep contacting him. So, he knows you are not serious and he knows he has full control over you. That is not a good signal to send to a wayward.

I am completely baffled why you think you can effectively negotiate with a fogged out wayward. It has never worked in the past so why would it work today?


Bingo!! This is what your attorney is for.

I am no longer desperate to save my marriage. I do not think WH will do the things that would need to be done in order to meet my conditions anytime soon, if ever. I do not want the animosity that will come from a long and dragged out divorce so I would rather get it done quickly. If he ever changes great, no law that says we can't remarry but for now I want this done.

Yes I have read the parallel parenting link, thank you that was useful and I told my attorney that was my intent. He said the courts here don't like it, but coincidentally I have gotten in touch with an old poster, who has been doing plan B and parallel parenting in my county so I'm hopeful I can get some guidance from her.

This completely misses my point but I am pretty sure you know that. Your letter - along with continued contact - gives that impression. A very bad impression to impart in the best of circumstance; even worse in a bad situation with an entitled wayward.

Most courts don't like it because their objective is to facilitate the easiest divorce possible. It will be up to you to influence your attorney to protect your interests. No one else will do it for you sadly.

Ok, I'm sending the proposal without a note from me!! Thank you for all your input. As you can tell, I am not a person who is easily persuaded to do something contrary to what I think I should do so that is no small feat.

I did list quite a few talking points for the attorney to include in a cover letter with the proposal (in his own words), so we shall see.

Thanks Chalk, your advice finally made sense to my as I tossed and turned last night and am not including any note and am having my attorney bargain from the position "of course you would give these things because its best for the children." Clearly he does not care much for them based on his actions but WH cares alot about appearances and I think it will be hard for him to admit to someone in his own profession he wants to take the roof from his children's head. But we'll see... If he agrees to these things it would give me alot more peace and stability about the future, but if not I know I will figure out how to make things work out so its not the end of the world.

Perfect! See how you found a solution without breaking Plan B? You did good!

One of the great things about this forum is that you have people who a) have been through this, b) have been here for years and seen every imaginable situation and c) have an objective view of your situation that you don't possess.

We have the ability to see your situation objectively and offer a strategic approach rather than an emotional approach. We all know and understand how intensely emotional this situation is for you.

Yes, I am so grateful for that. I think I am starting to be aware of my own fog. It was so clear to me last night what a bad idea sending a note was, but so strange how even hours before I was so certain of it. Thats fog for you.

Amac, I can identify with this. I'm one that likes to communicate, both written and in person. Fortunately the pros here have helped me avoid strategic mistakes, by pointing out when my painstakingly worded and edited letters would be lost on WW. It's difficult to say less when a BS wants to say so much more. But less is really better with waywards, because not much of anything gets through the fog.

As Melody said, they have been through this themselves, and they have seen it all in the many years they have been helping people They have objective reactions because they are not emotionally invested. It can be difficult for someone with strong opinions to take a course of action that is recommended by others. But your own experience has not prepared you for this, none of us were prepared for it. Continue to listen to the pros here, they will guide you to the best strategy!

Now...what about the issue of drop offs and seeing your WH that we have been nagging you about for months now?

WH is supposed to have the kids for most of the day (2-7:30) on Sundays. He told my IM at 12 that he wouldn't be able to get the kids today. That means he has seen them for a grand total of 2 hours this week. Gave no reason and when my IM told him I had plans he didn't even respond. This is a divorce lawyer who has not responded to his own divorce, who has not had his kids overnight in 3 months, who is still presumably sleeping on someones couch, and is now flaking on the little custody time he has knowing full well how that is going to look for him in the long run. I'm almost offended that he doesn't even bother lying anymore. Is this part of the downward spiral of a wayward? Whats next?

I was pretty angry about this at first, but the anger didn't last long. Again more validation that none of this is about me. If we truly had a bad marriage and he happened to find his soulmate in his affair then wouldn't now being free of the burden of our relationship make him a better man and father? What is the most upsetting to me about this whole situation is not that I have lost my husband, but that my children have lost their father. My IC said to me, well just because someone gets divorced that doesn't mean they can't be a good father. Which I would agree with, but infidelity is a different animal. I have not seen any examples of a cheating father where he was a better father (or even a good one) if the marriage ended in divorce. If they exist I would be happy to hear it. I predict my WH will be a broken man for the rest of his life which makes me so sad, and was one of my reasons for fighting so hard. I don't want that for him or my kids and I know that redeeming himself with me is the only way to prevent that.

I am sure there might be examples of wayward fathers who have abandoned their families for an adulterous affair with a married woman who are Fathers of the Year, but I have just not run across one in my 17 years here. Strange.....

Say what? Amac, my friend, have you been reading Teen Vogue? First off, what is a "soulmate?" It must be a rotten soul if they are committing adultery. You don't believe this foolishness, do you?

The main thing in being a good father is taking care of your children's mother.

Fire the IC.

yep!!

No! Of course I don't believe it! It is so absurd! But since I can't argue the foolishness to WH I need to vent it out somewhere

Amen!

Got the letter and proposed agreement for my attorney to send to WH. I am pretty confident that when they contact him about it he will throw out "reconciliation" again. What should I have them say to him? I'm tempted to have them say "she is not interested in that now." Which am afraid is true. Even if he ended his affair and got a job in my county, with his apparent serial cheating tendencies I dont think I would take him back knowing thats what I would have to deal with. But at the same time I dont want to close the door forever.

I think to take him back I would need to know the truth of everything, when his porn addiction started, when his chatting started, if she is really his first affair. And I would want a polygraph to confirm it and then make my decision.

I think I will have my attorney respond if he mentions it "amac does not believe you are capable of meeting her conditions for reconciliation so she would like this matter resolved as quickly as possible."

I think that statement opens up dialogue. There is no reason to do that with a practicing wayward.

Instead you could have your attorney say, ' Amac has presented you with some conditions for her to be interested in reconciliation. Since you have not met those conditions, she is only interested in moving ahead with divorce.'

Have the people who intervene for you, your IC or attorney if it comes to that, tell him you are not interested in reconciliation *until he meets your conditions.* Clearly he has not done that or even attempted to do that, so there is no dialogue to have there. If he wants to discuss reconciliation any further, your attorney can refer him to your IM. Your attorney handles divorce I assume, not reconciliation...

He needs to understand that HE is not in charge of reconciliation. You are not just a dog waiting around for a bone....

Thanks Unwritten, that sounds good.

You gave him your conditions in the Plan B letter! A) END THE AFFAIR B) COMMIT TO A PROGRAM OF RECOVERY. It is a separate issue from the divorce. Once he does those things, he can reach out to your SISTER and she can test his sincerity.

Otherwise, this is just typical BULL**** served up to delay the divorce. TYPICAL.

What you should not ever ever do is allow a WS to delay a divorce with empty talk of "reconciliation." Go forward with the divorce and if he truly meets your conditions some day you can consider it.


"we would like this matter resolved as quickly as possible. If you end your affair and meet amac's conditions in the future, please reach out to her sister so she can discuss it with you. That does not change amac's desire to resolve this matter at the present."

yep yep!! We said the same thing but I like unwritten's statement much better!!

Hi Amac, Just checking on you and wondering if your plan B is going better now you have an attorney sending things to your WH? I've found the active legal stuff to be a big relief because it formalises all the communications and takes away any reason I had for communicating with WH directly. Have you got a plan for the Sunday visitation this week?

Hi Chalk, I think my Plan B is getting better, but I don't know if its a product of the legal stuff or not. NC with WH for 5 weeks now and I don't feel any desire to. During that time there has been little bits of info that have gotten through from other sources but I've worked on plugging those holes (gave my sister my social media passwords to change so I can't got on and look at OW, driving different route to avoid the park WH takes the kids to when he has them, things like that.)

Yes, the Sunday visitation is the gapping whole. With so much uncertainty about WH moving back and wanting more time with them (and therefore removing the need for him to come to the house), and then flaking last week its been hard for me to motivate to find a solution. If he signs the agreement then this custody pattern will be set in stone and I will have to really deal with it.

My gapping Plan B hole just became a huge tear. WH tricked me. He knocked on the door put the baby on the step with his carseat so it looked clear and I opened the door, but he was standing off to the side with my daughter and asked to talk. I said no, talk to my sister, grabbed the baby and my daughter then when I'm back behind the door then he says- "I quit" I thought he was going to say he quit his job which would have been significant, but he said "i quit to affair." And of course that started a whole conversation (with me still behind the door I did not see him).

Bottom line, once again, when I take action to progress the divorce he claims the affair is over and spouts lie after lie. He claims that the text from OW was a lie, that there is no 3rd woman and it was just chatting "that one time" but then said ok he admits he has a problem and is going to therapy. I told him I didn't believe him that i think he lied our whole marriage, that i still love him, but I dont think the person I love really exists. I told him I'm happy now and i'm done, that I want the divorce and continually asked him to sign the agreement. He played dumb "what agreement" like he doesn't know what I want. When i asked him what his plan was for us then he said he is going to move back here but knows he can't live in the house but stilll wants to be able to come and have dinner as a family, AKA CAKE EATING!! No way. I told him I am nobody's consolation prize and told him to sign the agreement and shut the door. I cannot believe he has the nerve to think i would fall for this S***.

I will figure out something this week for the exchanges.

Hi Amac, I had much the same thing from my WH over months. He was prepared to go to great lengths to pretend that the affair was "over", but was still somehow unable to provide actual evidence or complete the things on the SAA checklist which would have made it impossible for him to communicate with her or start any new affairs. I found that this article describes the situation quite well: http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8001_affair.html

I have also struggled with WH telling everyone that he wants reconciliation, and giving people lists of things he has supposedly done, and claiming that I just don't want him. He is very convincing. But as long as I just counter all this rubbish by watching his ACTIONS not listening to his words, it stops me being sucked into his warped revision of reality.

But I think it is a good sign that your WH is not comfortable and happy in affairland. So now is the time to really step up the pressure with plan B so he gets the message that you won't accept crumbs and he has no option but to come back ready to grovel at your feet - or not at all.

I feel awful today. That contact really did set back my healing I think. I know WH was lying and is not ready, and I do want the agreement done and divorce but it is so hard to hear the things you want to hear knowing its not genuine. I'm just so drained of all of this.

But I have plugged the hole!! Hired a babysitter to come for the drop offs

I will survive this affair

Translation: my affair is not over but I want to throw you some crumbs so you will drop the divorce and invite me to dinner occasionally. for the children, of course.......

Bravo!!

That's great Amac!! You are sounding so much stronger and more positive than a while ago. Great work!

Thanks Chalk! I do feel more at peace with my situation. I know I could be happy with either outcome, but my past desperation has been because of my angt about having my kids come from a broken home. However, seeing how happy they are and how well we have done with just the three of us over the last few months I believe I can still make a good life for them in spite of their father's choices. So that helps.

I'm also determined to break this horrible cycle. When WH told me he "quit" the affair I responded I didnt believe him, that he only was acting in reaction to what I had done (the agreement) he said I do that too, that I reached out to him when did the taxes (something I asked him to do through my IM to further the divorce) and he said he knew I would do that. Now I'm expecting he will do something to provoke a reaction from me. I'm hoping that will be signing the agreement. I assume he thinks that if he signs it I will get cold feet and freak out. Not gonna happen this time.

I have to admit my temptation. I want to have my IM send this message to WH:

"Do not contact amac like that again. Yesterday DD said "it was daddy, daddy made you cry, I felt bad." Now amac has hired a babysitter to do the exchange from now.

Unless you can prove that your affair is over and you either have quit your job or found one in OC, and are willing to do whatever it takes to create a LOVE filled marriage, there is nothing to discuss. Talking and lying just create more hurt. All communication should come through me."

I know I shouldnt because NC will make him more likely to sign the agreement. So I have to hold off, but its so hard! I want him to know the impact that contact like that has not just on me, but on our kids. I know its largely my fault for leaving that as a hole, but still he needs to be aware of the consequences too.

You don't realize it but this is you looking for a fix.

Once you truly get into a Plan B (once the babysitter is there for the drop-offs and I would advise you to leave the house during this time), for a period of time -- weeks, maybe even a month or two -- this temptation should wear off.

You can do this, amac. You haven't been in Plan B yet - why not really give it a try?

STOP!! Don't do anything. Don't break Plan B AGAIN by sending him a message when you have told him you are ending contact. Stick to no contact and show him you are serious....this time.

You are the cause of this Plan B breach. I told you right from the start this would happen. All you need to do is go into an airtight Plan B. It is up to YOU, not him, to uphold your Plan B.

He doesn't care, amac.

It's been 5 years since my divorce and my WxH is not really in the fog anymore but he is still a very lousy father (you can ask MelodyLane or some of the other posters here who know my situation well!).

You can point x, y and z out to him to his face and he will seem to get it and then one minute later it's all about him again.

This would be a good thing for you to accept now because this may never change with your WH and no amount of talking to him about it (just like with your attempts to "talk" him out of his affair) will help.

It will just frustrate you and set you back. It's not worth it and it won't work.

Sue is correct, he won't care. That is about as effective as lecturing a falling down drunk.

p.s. if you will really take Plan B seriously and shut this down, it might wake him up. So far, he has maintained full control of you via the continued contact. That has kept him out there in affairland.

One thing that does SCARE him is your divorce action. He has been trying to shut that down for a while now by throwing you empty little crumbs.

Your best chance comes from a) moving forward with the divorce and staying completely DARK. No more little messages from you through your sister and no more breaches of contact.

Yes, I thought that might be it, which was why I posted.

It went well with the babysitter, did relieve a lot of pressure for me.

I will do it!

That is sad to hear, but I know its true. And if I plan to parallel parent I can't pick and choose what issues to concern him with. I plan to act that he doesn't even exist as a parent except for what Im legally obligated to apprise him of, I've already been doing that pretty much.

Yes, that seems painfully obvious now. Plan B and D here I come.

Hi amac, when I was struggling with plan B, I was mentally making up reasons why I absolutely had to contact him - and believing my own justifications that it was impossible to avoid. I now know I was wrong and was keeping myself in the drama unnecessarily. The reasons were things like: if I was going to be out in the evening with the kids and we would miss the usual skype call time, so I would let him know we were not there; or sending him mails to complain about him not paying the medical insurance and demanding that it was done; or thinking that direct contact would make him pay maintenance on time. But since I decided to TOTALLY cut off all that contact, I realise that I didn't really need to even mention those things anyway. So what if he calls on skype and we are not in? The fact that we don't answer will tell him we are out and he can try later if he can be bothered to make the effort. If he was going to pay the medical insurance, he would have done it. Me complaining will not make that happen. So I've left it to the lawyer now.

I am SO SO much calmer and happier now that we have total zero contact. I have no idea what he is doing, no way to hear anything about it, and, the best thing is, I don't even care.

If he crosses my mind at all, i just smile to myself knowing that I have managed to take all the family assets, I've got all the children, he doesn't have a visa for this country, and I'm submitting another urgent application today for the maintenance money, so the kids and I have done pretty well out of the situation so far! I know WH is going to be having a miserable time soon, if not already, and that is enough justice for me.

Hi Chalk, you are so lucky that you are literally in a different country then WH! It is truly amazing what you have been able to accomplish. Maybe I just need to pretend the same thing exists for me, WH and I are clearly on different planets mentally

I think alot about what I have read on other Plan B threads, that this is really our time. If we get to the point of recovery, its going to be hard. I got a taste of it for the 2 weeks WH had claimed to have ended the affair and its a hard state to want to go back to. I know I wasn't strong enough to do it 3 months ago. Though I have struggled with no contact, one thing I have been very good at in Plan B is making a life for myself and my kids without WH. I'm almost afraid of enjoying myself too much. When WH has come to me with his crumbs I'm not even tempted to take him back. I find myself thinking now, "If WH were to come back now then I wouldnt be able to do x,y,and z, because that would be too independent behavior." Unless he is coming with an very attractive alternative I'm taking my x,y, and z.

Gotta say, I'm loving dark Plan B. WH is not to happy about it though, it seems. My sister (IM) warned me of a potential ambush last night. Sorry bud, babysitter at the drop off so no way to get at me!

Today is the deadline for him to respond to my agreement. I thought he would sign it to provoke me but I'm guessing he is not feeling that confident anymore so he will probably do nothing. Which means I have to move the divorce along without him. I have proposed that my attorney tell him that since he is not signing I will seek retroactive child support from the court for the last 4 months. That will really squeeze him, and he will probably see it as a declaration of war which I am kind of afraid of. I think I could also get a divorce by default since he has not responded. That means everything gets split 50/50 which I am not too excited about, but may be better then having this drag out for years. That also means the divorce would effectively be done (except for our marital status remaining for the mandatory 6 months, which would put me to end of Jan 2018 I think). Or I could do nothing and wait around for him to get pissed enough to sign it to spite me. But I'm not a fan of anymore waiting around, hard to know what to do.

Hi Amac, it's so good to hear that Plan B is working for you too! Did you WH sign? I wouldn't worry about provoking him or doing things he might think of as "a declaration of war". I think (from reading other threads and from my own experience) that waywards are primarily concerned with trying to move on from the mess they have created as cleanly and easily as possible, so they can maintain their fantasy that they haven't just dumped their wife and kids to pursue their totally selfish desires.

From what you've said before, 50/50 sounds like it might be quite a good outcome for you. So take it as a blessing if your WH doesn't want to respond! Although just make sure you don't let your guard down in case he throws in a curve-ball somehow.

I like to remind myself of this quote from the Art of War: "To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."

Plan B, with some good financial planning and legal strategy, protects us from defeat. Then we just have to wait for the WS to deliver us the opportunity to get the better of them. And because they are only thinking about themselves and their immediate happiness, those opportunities are many.

Hi Chalk - no, WH has not responded at all to my proposed agreement. Seems that he just prefers to ignore that the divorce is happening, much like your WH. I asked for the child support payment through my IM, and if he does not deposit it today my attorney is going to send him a letter detailing all of his lack of response and thus making it so I will have to file an action in court for child support and will be requesting attorneys fees. Hopefully that threat will do something, I cannot imagine WH will be happy about the prospect of being brought into court as a deadbeat dad in front of judges he knows and colleagues. But my attorney says to even get a hearing date is 6 weeks!!

WH has told my IM he does not plan on seeing the kids this weekend because he wants to go to Seattle, where his parents live. I feel like this is some kind of play on his part, not sure what though. I had asked him to do that months ago as a way to separate himself from the affair. Doesn't mean much to me for him to go now, but there would be no reason for him to just go up there on whim like this. To me just means another weekend of him not seeing his kids. There is no figuring out these people.

Things are starting to come to a head, for good or worse. WH did not send the money, and when my sister sent a text to confirm that it was sent and that he was not seeing the kids this weekend, he never responded. His sister posted pictures on facebook that show he was in seattle, which surprised me. Last I heard from his mom no one wanted to see or talk to him. I bet he is spinning some tale to them which is frustrating and I want to set them straight, but I know I need to stay dark so I won't. Most significantly, he filed a response to the divorce on Friday. That kind of stung but I was preparing myself for something. I knew after our last conversation that he would do something to provoke a reaction from me. I was hoping it would be signing the agreement, but that was too much to lose for him, the response was his best play because now I think that stops me from getting a default.

Things are probably going to get nasty now. Since he has not paid my attorney will request the child support from the court. WH is crazy. To not pay, not respond, and not see his kids all look very bad for him in court. I have no clue what he is doing. I dont think he is going to respond well to this request at all, but it has to be done. If I get what I'm asking for (and entitled to) he will be out of money pretty quick.

His fantasyland is going to come crashing down on him I think, but how often does the crash make them realize it was THEMSELVES who did this, or do they continue to point the finger at the BS?

The city where I live has had a massive fire over the last few days. My house was not evacuated but my kids daycare was. Luckily it was a holiday for me when it broke out so they were with me driving back from Utah. I read stories from other parents about the evacuation. The fire literally burnt right up to the street where it is located. The babies were wheeled out in their cribs, covered in blankets from head to toe because of the embers and ash in the air and taken to a local fire station. The fire is still raging but going the opposite direction now.

Friends, family, cowokers all have sent me worried texts asking how we are. Even WH's sister in Utah sent a text saying she was thinking of us. WH did not reach out at all to my IM. When she told him he needed to pick up the kids at the house instead of the daycare because of the evacuation and asked him to come earlier then he usually gets them he responded he "wish he had more notice." He has seen them a total of 5 hours in 2 weeks and probably less then a days worth the entire month.

I am literally pulsing with anger. I know my sister should not have told me what he said, she was too mad. I told her she needs to be tighter and tell me nothing. I feel the way I did when I first discovered contact after he claimed the affair was over. I felt non stop anger for an entire month. I do not want to feel this way, what can I do?

Hi Amac, I'm so sorry!! This is really one of the hardest things to deal with because you love your children so much and you want them to have a great father - which they currently do not. I understand the anger and the frustration and the pain of that feeling, and how it is a totally separate and different betrayal to the actual affair.

I saw a social worker last week about my kids and she had some quite good advice about making myself understand that my husband's relationship with his children is not my responsibility and I have to let go of what I want for them from him, because it is totally out of my control. I cannot give them a father. Only he can do that. All I can do is make sure I am the best mum I can be, and be there to answer their questions truthfully about why WH is not there when they ask.

I struggle a bit with the line between being truthful/not being disrespectful about WH to the kids when he tells them blatent lies every day on Skype and they pass on these things to me. But I'm trying. Yours are still so small though, so I guess you don't have so much of an issue with difficult questions to answer.

This betrayal is so much worse. I truly believe I could get over and forgive the affair. But I knew all along and I have told him this many times in the past, what I will hate him for and probably never forgive is the consequences his actions bring on our children. The greatest of them at this point being depriving them of a father. I know I can't control it which is why I am so grateful for Plan B and being introduced to the concept of parallel parenting; since he is not acting like a parent I will not give him the title of "co parent" but that means I need to get my expectations in line with that as well.

The stark reality of what "wayward" actually is, an individual so entrenched in mental fog, he/she is incapable of rational thought or compassion for others...

I am sorry your WH is being so insensitive to this event, and specifically seems to have very little concern for the safety of your children. Chalk this up as a feather in your cap with regards to custody hearings, I would have your sister print out his response so as to keep it for your documentation.

Good to hear you are OK, lots of devastation out there.

Thanks Unwritten, yes I am glad there is some way I can use his waywardness against him to my benefit.

I'm having a very strong temptation to contact OWBH again. Wondering if I should or not. I think there are a few motivations behind this temptation. First, I dont know if he is aware that the affair is physical and that has always bothered me a bit. I just assumed he did so I never addressed it specifically with him when we spoke, but when I spoke to OW mother awhile back she said OW told her it was not physical, I told OW mother it was, but I think its likely she would not share that information with OWBH. Also, WH has recently told my mother in law that OW and her husband are still together but for their pending adoption. OW is like a teenager who posts her emotions on facebook and put up a quote "i love us" a few weeks ago, I know this is in reference to my WH because he wrote it to her in an email before, but OWBH liked the post! I dont get it, but I think he must assume she was talking about him? Can he be that clueless? I also hate the idea that her lies to him are effecting the life of that poor child who will likely be adopted into a broken home. At the same time, I dont know how much more I should feel obligated to help this BH see the truth when he seems to be willfully ignoring things.

Also, now that I have filed the order for child support with the court WH is REALLY feeling the pressure to get off the couch and find a place of his own. On Friday my mother in law told me he was looking for a place, but yesterday when my daughter came home from her time with him she said "daddys house is really cute." That shocked me. I dont know if he actually found a place of his own, or brought her to the house he has been living at for the last few months, or worst thought of all, to OW's house. The thought of my children being around OW is unbearable, so that's what makes me want to start messing with the affair again. Other then that aspect, ive pretty much gotten to the place that I could care less what WH is doing, but do not want my children exposed to his filth.

So what do you think, contact OWBH again and risk more drama? Or just accept that at this point I have done what I could for OWBH and that I can't control whether WH brings the kids around her or not and just keep myself in the dark as much as possible?

I have requested a clause that the children not be exposed to significant others until the divorce is final and there has been a continuous dating relationship for a year, but its not an enforceable order yet and would be hard for me to enforce without seeing it myself since my kids are so young.

If this was me, I would contact the OWH and make sure he understands the truth about the affair. I have seen betrayed husbands dismiss or justify affairs because they didn't believe it was physical. Of course, he seems to be pretty wimpy so it likely won't make a difference.

Also, I would not permit my child to be exposed to his affair.

Amac, why are you not in Plan B? You talk about what WH recently told your MIL and what OW is posting on FB...how do you know these things???

I know. I really have blocked out so much and having the babysitter do the exchanges has helped a ton. I looked at the facebook when WH was claiming the affair was over, its the best way for me to know if he is lying or not.

I spoke to my mother in law because I wanted to make sure they knew that WH had not seen his kids, was requesting spousal support from me, and had not paid me any child support. Other then OW they are the only real influences in his life so I want them to hear from me what is actually happening in the hopes that they can be of some influence.

Hi Amac, how are you doing? Since you are quiet now, I guess plan B might be working?! Hope so!

Hi Chalk, thanks for thinking of me I'm doing pretty good. Plan B is working in that I def do not get that panicky desperate feeling anymore and I def have "let go" of all attempts to save my marriage and am very busy and pretty satisfied in my life without WH. I just wish he would go way entirely! Now I view him as this annoying knat who likes to get at me emotionally by demanding things with our kids and still doing absolutely nothing with regards to the divorce which is making it more costly for me because I'm constantly having to do things to get him to engage. We have filed multiple notices and subpoenas requesting information from him and he has still yet to make any contact with my attorney. My atttorney now is subpoening him for a deposition in a couple weeks that I'm hoping will at least force him into his office so we can come to some agreement.

I have information that he might actually be in the process of moving, to where I dont know. I'm betting not in my county, which I would prefer. Meaning he cant make more time demands on the kids. But that is the paradox of this whole thing which I'm sure you can relate to, I dont want to give him more time with them, but it makes me so sad and disappointed that he as their father does not seem to want more time with them. I have written him off as a husband, and I'm hoping to get to the point where I am no longer angered or affected by him being such a negligent father. Im sure it will get there with time.

Hope things are well with you!

Alot has happened and I need motivation to get back on track.

WH finally got off the couch he had been staying on and got a 2 bedroom apartment 15 mins from me, 45 miles from OW. He also go a new job, but not in the county that we live. He is set to start on Tuesday. I dont know where exactly but I assume in the same area he is practicing now because that is where his contacts are.

The divorce process was getting pretty hostile. It was clear to me that WH was trying to get back at me for not taking him back when he tried in Sept. I knew his plan was that if he made it difficult for me I would start to cave. Of course this just made me start to hate him.

I became overconfident in myself because I had been doing so well with my Plan B. Stupidly, this made me believe I was strong enough to break my Plan B and try to negotiate some of the divorce terms with him because I have spent thousands of dollars already and was getting nowhere. 2 weeks ago at the drop-off I asked him to stay (babysitter still did he exchange and has been since Sept). I didn't let him in the house, we talked in the backyard. I told him it was only to talk about the divorce. I asked for a dollar amount to end it and give me what i want and he throw out an absurd number and i told him to leave. I said something pretty awful to him as he was leaving, which caused him to come back shaking and crying. From there he somehow turned the conversation around to what it would take for him to come back. He talked about all the things he missed from our life, about me, and how he knew it was only going to get worse. He kept throwing out things to get me agree to let him back but I said no to everything. Lastly, he suggested signing my proposed divorce agreement that basically gives me everything, but delaying the judgement a year for him to prove his faithfulness. This appealed to me. Seems like a win win, i get the security of knowing I will get what i want in the divorce and a resolution probably alot sooner then without it, and if by some miracle he can prove himself, all the better. I said if he called my attorney and worked it out before our impending hearing I would give him that chance. He also agreed to all other conditions i had mentioned before (no contact with OW, work in my county, lie detecter, flip phone, full transparency and computer supervision).

Well, 3 days later he is filing motions with my attorney, calls him to negotiate child support and as far as the reconciliation terms went my lawyer said "it went nowhere, and will go nowhere." I know I should not be surprised, but it still baffles my mind how waywards can literally do a 360 like that.

I wish I could say that was the end of my drama, but I didn't stop. After WH dropped off the kids last Sunday I had the babysitter with them so I could meet a friend. On my way home I drove by the exit where WH is now living. I went to his apartment. He wouldn't answer when I knocked, I saw the light on so I called out to him and told him to let me in. I told him I wanted to see where my children were going to be staying. He had a crib, and a toddler bed for my daughter and a few clothes in their closet. In his room was just an air mattress. No other furniture in the entire place. I looked at him and asked him "do you want this life?" He said what choice did he have. I put my arms around him, and he tensed and said "Oh s$ht" and I knew his affair wasn't over. I looked around the apartment and saw a curling iron on the bathroom counter. I pointed to it and he said "that was there when i moved in" haha such a bad liar. Of course we argued about him lying and then i asked why he didn't sign the agreement to give me the security i need to save our marriage and family he said "i dont know if i can do it." I asked because of her or you'll cheat with someone else?" He said there are feeling involved with her and he has been "faithful to her, except for the chatting" I said then divorce me! but give me the house. Then he started retracting saying he knew it wasn't going to work with her and he was trying and that I should see that by the fact he moved back to our county. I then asked him where he was going to work and he wouldn't tell him, then i realized his new job must not be in our county otherwise he would tell me. I told him I would NEVER be with him if he was not working in our county. He started saying it wasn't a done thing and his current firm would take him back (I guess he thinks they will let him work in our county, IDK) but i ran out. He started screaming after me "what do you want?"

That's where things are.

Such a huge mess. I dont know what to do.

I let WH have the kids with his family over thanksgiving. Part of me hopes that him being a single parent and having them full time for the first time in 6 months and seeing his siblings with their families might bring some reality to him.

Also, I have not had any further contact with OWBW because I thought the affair might have been over, but seeing the curling iron confirmed its not. Part of me wants to contact him today and tell him everything I know to raise some hell in the affair that might prevent WH from starting his new job this week. If he does that, then I dont see how we can ever reconcile. But if i do that, WH will be mad and that will counteract any influence being with him family this weekend will have had. I will contact OWBH at some point regardless because I need to know when their adoption will be done. That is critical for alot of reasons. OW is still living with her BH under the guise that it just for the adoption, but I think when it happens she probably won't actually leave him. Also, I plan to use that as a reason not to give WH more custody because he could uproot and move to OW area if she does actually leave her H.

I think no matter what I do WH will start the new job. He cannot afford his apartment and the child support he has to pay me with his current salary. And even if he doesn't take it because of something I did, I know he will always resent me for it.

Bring on the scolding, I know I need it. I know I need to go back to a dark Plan B. Is there any solution here? Im afraid if I dont contact OWBH I will always regret it, on the flip side i might regret it if I do because I will wonder if there was even the slight chance that WH would choose not take the job on his own, if that makes sense.

The solution is to go back to Plan immediately and get to work negotiating [NOT DIRECTLY!] a favorable, final settlement in your divorce. Putting it off is only giving him permission to pursue his affair longer. You are still very addicted to him which is greatly harming your judgement. Stay dark and move forward.

Should I contact OWBH?

I would not. Just move forward and completely withdraw from this insane asylum. You really need to effect a very dark Plan B at this point.

As long as you are interjecting yourself into the situation, it takes attention away from the problems in the affair. And yes, there are many practical problems on top of the usual issues of bad traits cheaters bring into a relationship. Just think of it this way: when your enemies are destroying each other, don't interfere. You have interfered ALOT, making you the subject rather than their unviable relationship.

Thanks Melody, that makes sense.

AMAC, your emotions are leading you to a very bad place and causing you to make bad decisions. The longer you stay dark, the less that will happen. You MUST put aside your emotions and start thinking rationally. No small feat, but much easier when you stay dark, my friend.

I agree with ML that you are still very much addicted to WH and I fear until you take care of this situation with WH coming to the house you are going to find yourself getting involved in wayward drama for years to come.

Part of the reason I stick around here is to help BSs through the transition of divorce. It sickens me to my core to see BSs come back here YEARS after the D still refusing to let go of their xWS and demanding that contact is necessary because they "don't care" or for the kids, etc.

If you do not get yourself out of this cycle, this is going to be you. Posting about your WH and this type of drama for years.

I warned another poster about this years ago. She would constantly break Plan B - write LONG posts about her WH and OW drama. I told her if you don't stop this, you are going to be here for years posting stuff like this. She came back three years later (after breaking Plan B) with long posts, yet again, her WH and his now wife OW. She can't even see how toxic contact has been for her and how it has kept her stuck.

Do whatever you can to plug up the Plan B holes (one is him coming to your house). I do not think you have the willpower to stay dark under these circumstances.

This has been a theme throughout the thread - you trying to get your WH to do what you want him to do.

This has been a theme on this thread - you trying to "talk" and reason w your WH. About the affair, about the divorce. In the future, I'm sure it will be about the kids.

You can't reason with him, amac. It won't work, period.

We just talked about this a page or two ago on this thread. When are you going to accept this?

I know Susie, I have seen those threads from woman still posting years later. Believe me, I do not want to be that, and I really dont think I will.

My Plan B was going very well once I had the babysitter do the exchange. September and October were good months for me and I know that was because there was nothing impending in the divorce process and I could live my life without giving much thought to WH. When we hit november the child support hearing was looming and WH moved, and we had to deal with holidays, so all of this sucked me back in.

I know as you have said, there are always going to be things that come up that can divert my attention to WH and out of Plan B. How do you handle it? Especially during the divorce process which demands you attention?

Hi Amac...
As a person who has been through divorce- lawyers love for you to think you are getting somewhere when they are just taking your money.
Stop trying to reason with him. Just wait for your court cases and tell your lawyer he has 1 hour the day before to see if anything can be worked out- if not just go to court. Let his secretary's see any email that come in and just hold your ground.

Most courts give a very specific set amount no matter how much happened before. (I mean, you will get x amount for child support no matter how much you try to talk it out beforehand. It is set so people can't bargain)
So don't settle for things that you would get in court. Don't be afraid of court. Might feel nervous but have courage and know that they aren't out to get you.

So just keep making your final court dates... stop paying your lawyer for nonsense (let him do that) refuse to negotiate until the day before and be ready for court. Stop trying to contact him over any issues related to the divorce. Lawyers can do that and you can see he is just going to continue doing crazy things costing you money. Plus it keeps it on your mind. Facing it for an hour the day before court is doable. Going to court for a couple hours is doable.

You will be shocked at how much they will suddenly negotiate right before court and then if they stay a jerk ( like mine did) get handed a worse judgement from the judge following "standard" and nothing he could do.
Stop wasting money!
Stop contacting him- it will only make his demands worse.

Even with little ones- there is no reason to have to contact him. Your IM can do it for any schedule changes/ holidays... sickness, something special that kids are doing etc. Stick to the schedule and live your life.

I think you need to look at this in a way similar to the way that Dr Harley looks at NC for a WS - look at the conditions that keep making contact possible and close those loopholes.

Relying on your willpower is not working for you. Maybe it will in a year or two but right now, it is not.

I think as long as he is coming to the house, you're going to be at risk for breaking your PB. I would use the school/day care as the drop-off, pick-up location or some other location and have your babysitter do the transport (I do a combination of the two).

I know you feel you've been in a good Plan B for a couple of months but that is not really the definition of a "good" Plan B. If you were in a good dark Plan B for a long time, you would not get dragged into this drama with your WH. You would actively avoid him because you would know that it is not worth it and there wouldn't be a compulsion to talk to him. You're not there yet.

Thanks Elaina, I like your idea of the 1 hour window to negotiate the day before court, quite brilliant! I will definitely implement that in the future.

I'm not afraid of court, just the money it entails. My lawyer is quit expensive and being an attorney myself I know a day in court is mostly waiting around and I hate the idea of paying so much for that wasted time. Unfortunately, and stupidly, since WH is a divorce lawyer he is representing himself so wasted money is no factor to him.

As of now I have the child support order, possession of the house, and he has very little time with the kids so the only one who will want to be negotiating anything is him. Since he mostly chooses not to participate I"m hopefully I will get a bit of a reprieve.

Yes, it is motivating for me to implement the NC with WH the same way he should be doing NC with AP. It is a bit enlightening to see how hard it really is.

I dont know what to do about the drop off situation. WH picks them up from daycare and has them in the evening for dinner and then drops them home at bedtime. Since he now has the apartment he has told my attorney he will be asking for overnights. I dont want to do that though. I think it will be too disruptive for them and I dont trust him. But if I agreed to that he wouldnt need to come to the house anymore.

Are you thinking you have a case to withhold overnight visitation from him? Did you attorney say that you did?

I haven�t discussed in detail with my attorney because he has yet to formally request it. When he does request it I will not agree to it, and his only recourse will be to request a hearing from the court, which is typically set 6 weeks out. That will give me the opportunity to subpoena his new work records to see how much he is earning now, which I am sure is more then he was making when we set the original child support order. I will also require him to show his lease which he claimed he signed for 6 months. By the time we get to the hearing he will be at least half way through and I will have an argument that his living situation is still not permanent enough for him to have overnights.

I know I won�t be able to stop him from overnights forever but I�m going to do my best to prevent it while his affair is ongoing.

I would ask your attorney about this because as far as I know, as long as he has a place and beds for them to sleep in, you're not going to be able to stop the overnights so I don't know if it is worth the cost to you to fight this.

You might be better off trying to get an voluntary agreement from him where he will agree to keep the kids away from the OW.

Actually, I take that back about the beds - my attorney told me even couches in the living room at X's parent's house was OK for the kids to sleep on, but they were older than your kids.

Yes, I recognize that. I don't intend to actually go to court over the issue. Just make WH go through the process of filing the motion and setting a date, then I will negotiate at the last minute as Elaina suggested.

Hi Amac, I'm a Plan Ber, who hasn't commented on here in a few years but your Plan C has alarmed me so much I reactivated my account just so I could chime in here. Since you've already accepted the recent criticism, I won't pile on - but I want to make it clear to you that you are risking two very important priorities:

1) The mental and physical health of your children's sole responsible parent.
(I'm still haunted by the premature death of one very feisty lady before her child was of age. The child was given into the care of the WH and OW)
2) Avoiding a second Dday.
(If your nagging and cajoling were actually successful in dragging WH home with an NC letter then a second Dday would inevitably follow. A man child is not going to be able to hack recovery. You need to set the bar high: access to the challenge of marriage is only allowed to grownups who can get themselves home, write an NC letter all by their big boy selves).

1) You are getting stellar, step by step advice from the site's best vets.
2) You are clearly a bright, fearless, moral and dedicated person.
Which all = NO EXCUSE for veering off into Plan C at this stage in the game. Besides all of that: telling your husband what to do is both a DJ and a SD which you should know how to avoid before attempting a marriage recovery anyway.

I said I wouldn't pile on. OK. So constructively, Plan B is a WONDERFUL time built out of peace. It gives you time and space to spring clean out anything in your life which is not positive. Time to get your mind right. Time to set high standards. Time to focus entirely on you/your child. Time to learn how to let go of things not in your control. Abusers are going to abuse and enablers are going to enable but at least you are not controlling or enabling anyone. At least they won't affect anyone on your exclusive plan B guest list. Their behaviour wont affect anyone within the protection of the plan B castle.

Yes, divorce sucks like a Dyson and I bet you don't have a dedicated 'in case of divorce' budget so you're sliding each and every penny through gritted teeth not really realising it's the absolute best thing you could be spending money on right now.

Every penny protects priorities 1 and 2 above. I say that as someone who spent four times on lawyers what I thought I would. Still worth it. I'm happy, healthy and wealthy today.

Just ....... treat yourself as being worth more. Do something nice for Amac every time you have to do divorce stuff or pay divorce bills. For me it's pedicures. (Susie will say makeup but WUT)..

Thanks so much for your input Indiegirl, I have read alot of what you have posted to others and found it very helpful. But yikes, my plan C must be pretty bad if it made you reactivate!

I am tempted to go on the defensive and say I wasn't DJing in the drama I initiated in the last post. I just wanted to talk divorce but it ended up being 3 hours of him trying to talk me into letting him back. But I know it doesn't matter. The conversation should not have happened period. I was much more at peace with everything before it and was starting to feel the benefits of Plan B. I think alot about what you wrote to someone else that for the BS this is our time, if there is a recovery it will be hard (something I realize and made it easy for me to turn down most of the options WH presented) so I really should be enjoying myself now. And overall I am. Ugh just need to recover from this setback....

And I won't say anything about the AO you had at him either....or that anger tends to come along when you have no plan and feel powerless. It's like blood in the water to a wayward.



You have a lawyer for that! You don't have any personal influence over a wayward, even if you did it would be borrowing from the lovebank which is a bad habit, and personal influence disappears the moment youre not right there in front of him anyway.



Yeah, because you were being predictable. Your WH knows you and was prepared for you to ride in on your fix it white horse. So he had a little speech prepared because he knows all he has to do is set up situations that are tempting for you to fix and he gets opportunities to pitch the devil's deal. He's going to try it again too, because you've confirmed you'll bite..

I am SO SO sympathetic to your temptations here. He hasn't come back hat in hand so it seems rational to ask him if he's all out...and yet we could have told you that of course he's not that either. He's mayor of cake eating town and any conversations will lead back to that and will be a slap in the face.

So I really agree with Susie on this one. Is this plan a goer while the overnights are still up in the air?

What nice things have you done for yourself this weekend?

Not sure if you have plugged this gap yet or not but I would block/ delete any sources of wayward drama while you're strong so youre not tempted to check while you are weak.

If you have to, get off social media entirely and give the passwords to your IM. She can do any verifications without your even knowing about it.

You are so right about the personal influence disappearing the moment i'm not right in front of him. Its so apparent, its like time has stood still for him and he gave me a similar speech to the same he gave when we first separated - 6 months ago! And he was so shocked to hear about all the developments in my life, its like he expects the world to have stopped around him. Is this a typical wayward thing? So hard to understand..but again proof that I should not be even trying to understand his madness.

Thanks for the "mayor of cake eating town" that made me lol

Yes, I will give my IM the social media passwords, again...ugh. I dont know what to do about the drop offs. Without overnights he has to bring them back here after picking them up from daycare. This will change eventually, but probably not for a couple months in the least.

It was my son's 1st birthday this week. A milestone in so many ways. It was a significant time in my WH drama. For some reason he placed alot of emphasis on it. Telling OW (and me before i knew of the affair but got the 'love u but not in love with u' comment) that he would not leave our house before my son turned 1. Ha, well I'm glad I blew up that plan of his. Also, a year ago at this time my then newborn son was threatened with a life threatening disease and was in and out of the hospital Dec & Jan. That experience almost broke me, maybe even more so then this affair. I felt so alone during the whole ordeal, come to find out later that WH was turning to his online AP to grieve rather then me. My son was miraculously and unexplainably totally unaffected by the disease in his body, but I was not the same after. I went from giving birth, to being in and out of the hospital for 2 months, then coming home with a newborn and a toddler to care for. WH then took his online affair to a physical one and met OW in Jan of last year. So, I can say that compared to this time last year, I would take where I am now, hands down. We had a fun filled (but exhausting) week, celebrating with my parents and sister. I did manage to find some time to splurge on christmas decorations, which I will count as something good for myself

Happy birthday to your son Amac! And so thankful to hear that he is healthy now after such a traumatic start to life. I think Christmas decorations definitely count

Thanks Chalk!

Yeah me too. That's your cake missus. You earned it, you baked it and you deserve it. More fun news like this please.



What, you think he considers you a real person? No! In fact he thinks (to the extent it can be called 'thinking') that you are a meat puppet, summoned by his desire and animated by the presence of his greatness. Don't take it personally though. The whole world has become this to him. Best lie low till he's done with THAT.



Oh! Well if you like cake, check this out. By the wonderful Pepperband (who I miss!) who understood waywards to their bone marrows.




http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2671609&page=1

haha thanks Indie, that WH Pepper was "translating" could be my WH - word for word. But I guess they all do and say the same things. A new thing my WH threw out at that unfortunate break was that he "does not believe in divorce." This coming from a divorce lawyer! Translation - I don't mind profiting off of the pain and suffering of others, but such consequences should not apply to me.

I think mine said something like his version of divorce was being really good friends (hooking up was implied) and that he'd be vetting any boyfriends to make sure they didn't 'take advantage'.



Essentially they don't believe in relinquishing cake.

Today is hard day.

It was my son's 1st year checkup. I told his dr. about the divorce, about the cheating. She said 60% of affairs happen during pregnancy, how the same thing happened to her sister. My son's blood had to be taken at this visit. It was very traumatic for me, they had a hard time finding his vein, just like when he was a newborn. He had to be poked and prodded so much I couldn't handle it. When we were all done and I was out of the office with him I just sat on a bench holding him and crying. Crying for the unfairness of the pain both of us have had to suffer this year.

When I got home there was a package from my mother in law. We talked briefly before thanksgiving, she said my father in law told her she is not allowed to talk to me anymore because when she gets involved it makes the situation worse. (She Planed B'ed me!) Which is for the best, but this package broke the Plan B! In the package was my son's bottle bag that WH had left with them over thanksgiving. She also wrote a letter, talking about the fun things the kids did over Thanksgiving and how she knew christmas would be fun for me with the kids but also sad remembering the past. She included 3 glass ornament birds, she said they represent the freedom from the unhappiness of last year, one for me, my son, and daughter. She talked in the letter about how kids only remember what you tell them, and that my children would be happy well adjusted kids.

I know she meant well but of course this just expounded my sadness today. I hate that of course everything she writes to me I analyze as telling me that WH is a lost cause. I almost feel in a way that she is intentionally provoking me with that letter. But I also think alot of how awful this most be for her. The thought of my child doing these things is almost as unbearable as them being done to me.

I had a babysitter lined up to go to my office christmas party tonight, but I canceled. I haven't told anyone at work but a few close friends about my situation and I'm afraid I'm just too emotionally volatile to be in a social situation tonight. It's okay. Lots of other things to look forward to, but today is a hard one.

I was close to recommending a plan b with her anyway because she struck me as an enabler. Even super amazing and supportive MILs stop earning their keep in plan b after a while because the two of you can't talk about the person who links you. I would deliberately shelve her and not count on her to uphold it.



Im sure she means well but that's......super creepy. You're not going to lie to your kids. The one benefit they are going to get out of this is experience of a super common life problem. Makes me wonder about her.

Yeah she's kind of a bummer. Take care of yourself right now.

It doesn't hurt anyone else as much as it hurts you. Don't lose sight of that. BSs do this a lot. Project their pain and take care of others at their own expense. It sucks for everyone; but no one else had their head in a toilet wben they discovered sexual stuff. No one else has flashbacks to times he looked you in the eye and lied.

Now, granted, she sounds veeeeeery emotional but it just makes me think something else is going on with her. Talk of a cover up? Check. Jealousy of your 'freedom' from this? My guess is she's been a B.S. herself, but was too chicken to expose. But I'd need more clues, and we already know she's bad for your plan B anyway.

So sorry you are having a bad day, amac. I promise it won't always be like this.

There has been a few times during this that my MIL has done things that made me look at her differently. I dont think she is a BS, though. At the beginning when I first found out and both of us were on the fence about what to do she gave me every example she could think of about marriage with affairs that have worked out. In fact, WH's grandfather (dad's side) who WH himself said was an SOB, had a whole other family basically, but in the end choose to stay with WH's grandmother, and MIL says they were happy. She gave me other examples of things that have happened in her marriage that they survived, so I don't think she would have hidden it. But she has def encouraged covering up the truth (not of the affair actually, she exposed it to all of WH's siblings before I was even ready to) but I know she has lied to me about things with him, and vice versa. Lying really is just not acceptable to me on any level.

I do think she wants freedom from this situation. I think the back and forth has been hard for her too and she just wants it to be done so she doesn't have to deal with the situation. We both need the Plan B.

Thanks Melody, I know it, but nice to hear it from someone else

I need some guidance on Parallel Parenting. I sent a message through my IM asking that WH bring the kids back 1 hour earlier tomorrow so they could go to a church christmas program, or in the alternative switch days. Unfortunately, as I was afraid of, this communication caused WH to request an overnight. I'm mad at myself for even making the request, I think if I had not he would not have asked for the overnight but for opening up communication and now again I'm sucked back into the custody dispute. Through IM I said no overnights until 1) I see a copy of his lease, 2) I know when OW adoption is finalized, and 3) I know what his current salary is, and he will have to sign a stipulation about no contact with SOs. I said if i got this info I would give the overnight next week as he requested. I know i can't keep him from overnights, but I know I could spend money through my lawyer to get that info (except the adoption part) before allowing it. I knew this was coming but I thought I would have had more time if I had not initiated the switch.

So what do you do? If an activity falls on day that you dont have the kids do you just assume its not worth the hassle and have the kids do without? I hate that, but i'm thinking it is probably best. My kids at this age dont know what they are missing, only me. But as they got older there will be things they will have to miss. I hate the idea of them missing out on anything they could have had because of his choices. He has already taken so much from them, and from me.

First off, I would avoid changing visitation times at all cost for this very reason. When you do that, it opens him up to ask for endless changes. It is best to stick to strict times.

Secondly, what does the OW's adoption have to do with anything?

The thing is...affairs can happen to anyone anywhere, when people do not exercise boundaries around the opposite sex. People mean well when doling out marriage advice - but they typically have no idea what they are talking about. This is all on your WH - has nothing to do with you and your pregnancy.

It is, unfortunately, very very common for in-laws (even the ones who seem supportive of the BS) to throw the BS under the bus. They do not want the divorce to happen and they definitely don't want a divorce to happen due to their son's infidelity so they will get foggy in their own way.

It doesn't matter if they Plan B'd you - you should Plan B them from your end. If you are friends with them on social media, unfriend them or just close your account and don't read anything else they send you and don't engage in conversation with them.

I would encourage you to tell these people. I think you will be surprised at how much support you will get and how much it will help.

amac, I asked you before what you attorney said about all this...you are mixing other issues in with visitation (financial etc) that don't really make sense to me. During my divorce the financial part was complete separate from the parenting agreement.

Also, your WH doesn't need to meet any of your demands in order to "get" his overnight visitation. He is entitled to it - that's why I suggested to you before that you try to get a voluntary agreement that he will keep the OW away from the kids. Because I'm afraid you are going to piss him off to the point that he isn't going to agree to anything.

Agree x 100.

Right, okay I will set a schedule that will be most accommodating to our life. I think I will say Friday nights, return by 12 on Saturdays. That way I can take them to church on Sundays and most kid birthday parties, etc. are on Saturday afternoons.

The adoption is important in my mind, both affair wise and child custody wise. OW has been able to remain living with her BH under the guise of "staying together for the adoption." When the adoption is done, we will see what she actually does. If she does leave BH, I highly doubt she will be in the one to up and move her kids 50 miles away to live in WH's crappy apartment. I think he will move to be closer to her. I do not want my children to get accustomed to seeing WH and having overnights at his apartment to then have him uproot and move to be near her. I know this is not in my control, but by seeing how long his lease is and knowing the adoption timeframe will give me and idea, and potential arguments in court regarding the lack of stability in WH's current living situation. Its not good for any child, but my kids are really young and it would be very unhealthy for him to keep throwing them into new situations.

Have you asked your attorney about this? I think you have a strong argument for primary for this reason but I don't think you will be able to stop visitation regardless of whether he moves, etc.

As far as I know, family courts/judges will only stop visitation for any kind of safety issue like exposure to drugs etc. Otherwise, they won't care.

I was able to delay overnight visitation during the D for my kids because my exH moved into his OW's house, and the kids' counselor told both of our lawyers that they did not want to go there and that she thought it was too soon - but that only lasted for a few months. And that was voluntary on his part. I don't know that the judge would have backed me had he pushed it to court.