Marriage Builders
Posted By: Mark_P Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 10:20 AM
Hello All,
I�ll try and keep this short!

My WW BD on the 8th January 2017 informing me that she is involved emotionally with a co-worker, this R started in November 2016. She told me this due to it becoming a PA from that point on.

We have been together for 12 years and married 7 with two sons aged 10 and 8.

In February I moved out of the family home due to her continuing PA and the mental torture being inflicted on not just me but the effect this was having on my children, she wouldn�t leave and was adamant about this so had no other choice. Since then I have been sharing custody of our children 50:50.

Neither of us have mentioned D except in anger (always by her when she doesn�t get her way) as I want to try and keep my family together as it�s the right thing to do. Having read you �newcomer� feeds I feel I have been doing most of the principles already�
1. Basically have little contact with WW except drop off and pick up of the kids.
2. Never get in touch with WW at all except for emergencies.

I should mention it is impossible for me to truly Plan B and will always have some although very little contact with WW due to our circumstances.

What I�m struggling with is detachment, early in the situation I was constantly thinking of her and what she was doing but as times gone by this is getting less frequent but not total I can�t see how anybody can emotionally detach totally!

I need to mention I am STANDING for my MR, I still L my WW and can see and understand that 50% of the reason she had her A was down to me but the other 50% of the issues in our MR must be down to her but I never crossed the line!!!

I�ve been stalking the boards and come to the point where I feel I�m moving nowhere regarding my situation and ask for the sites advice as to how I can progress this with a view to ultimately get to RC my MR.

Thanks.

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 01:18 PM
Hi Mark, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am not sure where you got the idea for your current plan, because it is the last thing we would ever suggest. First off, we would not recommend Plan B for a betrayed husband until you had done Plan A for several months. Secondly, what you describe is not Plan B, but Plan C, which is more likely to lead to divorce.

Even though alot of time has passed with no effective plan in place, you have a small chance at recovery if you can follow Plan A. Plan A is two-fold: offering to meet her needs if she ends her affair and fighting the affair.

Your best hope comes in defeating her affair because her detachment is almost entirely due to her affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so your best chance is to expose her affair wide and far. This is much more impactful when done earlier in the affair, but you can still damage her affair if you do it now.

Is the OM married? If so, does his wife know? Is he her boss at work?

Check this out: What is Plan A and Plan B?

Exposure 101
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 03:40 PM
Hi MelodyLane,

Thanks for your response.

Initially once I found out about the A I did all the usual things that the BS does but obviously this got me nowhere! WW continued to see her AP and created an environment at home that was extremely detrimental to my children and I AFTER several weeks of this basically missed Plan A and feel straight into a type of Plan B by separating from her.

The mental and verbal abuse was something I wasn�t willing to take and seeing the damage it was causing to my MR and to my son�s took the hardest decision to find a place where I could get away from her chaos. I never had the chance to Plan A as it was so volatile I had to protect my kids and I.
Once apart I then realised that the space helped immensely I found some peace and started to work on how I could best protect my MR and my children. My WW never contacted me at all and I would never pursue her unless it was logistics for the children.

Regarding exposure the AP is married and has two young sons also, his W knows about his A with my W. All family members and a few well-chosen work colleagues are also aware. The AP is NOT her boss, I know I�m mind reading BUT it would seem everyone involved with WW isn�t condoning her actions towards her family!!!

Could you outline where my version of Plan B differs from the boards and what is Plan C?

�Plan B is to avoid all contact with the unfaithful spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery.� �In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behaviour. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation.�� But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A.�

This above ^^^^ statement is spot on with my situation at the beginning!

Unfortunately the situation with my WW means we are having to have F2F 3-days a week when she does not have custody of the kids, I will not allow her actions towards me affect their relationship with their mother. I basically allow her to have access to them but remove myself and return once goodbyes have been spoken then show her out stay civil and move on.

I feel though through all of this that it�s all irrelevant due to him being a co-worker, there's 0.0% chance on NC after the A comes to an end BUT won�t be the one who files and be responsible for the breakup of our family, she did this she should be �man� enough to end it.

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hi MelodyLane,

Thanks for your response.

Initially once I found out about the A I did all the usual things that the BS does but obviously this got me nowhere! WW continued to see her AP and created an environment at home that was extremely detrimental to my children and I AFTER several weeks of this basically missed Plan A and feel straight into a type of Plan B by separating from her.

I don't think you understand what Plan B means. Plan B is a complete and total separation, which you have not done. You are still in touch with her, which is actually PLAN C. PLAN C is the most likely to result in divorce.

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The mental and verbal abuse was something I wasn�t willing to take and seeing the damage it was causing to my MR and to my son�s took the hardest decision to find a place where I could get away from her chaos. I never had the chance to Plan A as it was so volatile I had to protect my kids and I.
Once apart I then realised that the space helped immensely I found some peace and started to work on how I could best protect my MR and my children. My WW never contacted me at all and I would never pursue her unless it was logistics for the children.

I don't know what an "MR" is, however, most wayward wives are mean and abusive. And most BH's [betrayed husbands] can deal with this for some time. Leaving your home only facilitated the affair and made your children more vulnerable to your wife's reckless lifestyle.

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Regarding exposure the AP is married and has two young sons also, his W knows about his A with my W. All family members and a few well-chosen work colleagues are also aware.

These people know WHAT EXACTLY? And who told them?

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The AP is NOT her boss, I know I�m mind reading BUT it would seem everyone involved with WW isn�t condoning her actions towards her family!!!

Have you personally exposed the affair to "everyone involved? Have you personally exposed the affair to the OM's wife? His parents? The authorities in the workplace?

It's very hard to believe that all these people know yet they sit by idly.

What do your children think about the affair? Is the OM coming into your home being exposed to your children?

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Could you outline where my version of Plan B differs from the boards and what is Plan C?

Plan B is NO CONTACT. Plan C is limited contact which makes the situation worse. Dr Harley explains why Plan C is a bad idea: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2798

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�Plan B is to avoid all contact with the unfaithful spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery.� �In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behaviour. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation.�� But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A.�

This above ^^^^ statement is spot on with my situation at the beginning!

You are not in Plan B. Nor is it appropriate for your situation.

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Unfortunately the situation with my WW means we are having to have F2F 3-days a week when she does not have custody of the kids, I will not allow her actions towards me affect their relationship with their mother. I basically allow her to have access to them but remove myself and return once goodbyes have been spoken then show her out stay civil and move on.

Her actions towards you HAVE affected your relationship with their mother. Again, this is not Plan B and is the most negative thing you can do for your relationship.

Quote
I feel though through all of this that it�s all irrelevant due to him being a co-worker, there's 0.0% chance on NC after the A comes to an end BUT won�t be the one who files and be responsible for the breakup of our family, she did this she should be �man� enough to end it.

Mark.

If the workplace authorities knew about the affair, they might feel differently. I don't know many companies that will allow their employees to carry on an affair in the workplace. Nor do workplace cheaters hang around for long once every one knows.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 04:13 PM

Mark, did you read these threads?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 04:44 PM
Welome to MB.

It is evident from the terminology you used in your first post ("BD"; "Newcomer feeds"; "detachment"; "standing"; "RC"; "MR") that you have been posting on the Divorce Busters forum, and trying to follow their advice. It seems that you have then browsed this forum and come across "Plan B", which seems to you to be the same as the advice given on DB to "detach".

The problem is that the two programmes are not the same, and you cannot mix the approaches and expect to have success.

DB teaches the betrayed spouse to "detach" or do the "180" from the outset. This is done to create the impression of indifference towards the wayward spouse, with a goal of making that spouse curious and jealous. The problem with that approach for men is that it doesn't work. The unfaithful wife is very likely to be in love with her affair partner, and giving her space and detaching from her only supports her view that you have been an uncaring husband who could not have cared less if she dropped off the planet this instant. The other man, with his flattering emails, texts and phone calls, and constant attention, is bound to look like the better choice, compared to your indifference towards her.

Marriage Builders does not recommend game-playing in this way. For men, the advice (if you want to save the marriage) is to go into Plan A, which starts with exposing the affair (a move that DB flat-out rejects) and asking for support from your families and caring friends. If the OM is married, his wife must be informed (the kids too, if they are contactable), and if this is a workplace affair, it should be exposed to both employers if your wife refuses to end it immediately.

Plan A (for a husband) then involves offering to address the unfaithful wife's complaints about the marriage, and meeting any emotional needs that she will allow you to meet. Executing Plan A is hard on husbands, but Dr Harley knows that most can do it for a sustained period of time - up to two years. It is essential to do this if you want to win your wife back, or at the very least, remain attractive to her when the affair breaks down (as most do, within short order). Giving up in frustration and moving out of the house, as you have done, is a very bad idea, as it gives your wife the freedom she needs to cement the relationship with OM. Also, it gives you little or no opportunity to Plan A and win her back from him.

Plan B - the complete ending of contact - should only be done when a husband cannot take the emotional toll any more - but in admitting this and going to plan B, a husband needs to realise that his marriage is unlikely ever to recover. Plan B might have the effect of making your wife realise what she is missing, but it is more likely to make her realise that you are unreliable, while OM is supportive.

If you want to follow Dr Harley's MB plan, you needs to scrap DB. You should be in Plan A, and "indifference", "detachment" and Plan A do not mix.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 04:54 PM
Thanks again Melody,

It would seem I'm in Plan C but don't really have a choice!

My situation does not allow me to TOTALLY go NC with my WW due to family commitments. Do you suggest I should NOT allow my boys to see their mum when they can? Again that doesn't involve me as I'm not in the picture, civil goodbyes is all the conversation I have when this happens.

I have no other contact at all except logistics for hand overs and emergencies.

I have to co-parent and keep this very business like no friendly conversations just give or take the boys depending on where they are on our parenting rota.

Now that I'm in Plan C how can I make this as best as I can to give me any chance of reconciling my MR (marriage)?

WW has met with AP's W but you are right about his side as I only know about WW family as I have told them all. Again not sure about there work colleagues either and would appreciate anybody's templates for HR letters regarding their exposure.

Mark.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Initially once I found out about the A I did all the usual things that the BS does but obviously this got me nowhere! WW continued to see her AP and created an environment at home that was extremely detrimental to my children and I AFTER several weeks of this basically missed Plan A and feel straight into a type of Plan B by separating from her.
What are "the usual things that the BS does"?

Did those things involve a formal exposure of the affair, to his wife and to their employers?

Originally Posted by Mark_P
Regarding exposure the AP is married and has two young sons also, his W knows about his A with my W. All family members and a few well-chosen work colleagues are also aware. The AP is NOT her boss, I know I�m mind reading BUT it would seem everyone involved with WW isn�t condoning her actions towards her family!!!
Exactly WHAT does his wife know about the affair with her husband? If she really knew, he would not still be living there. His wife would not put up with this. Women do not accept their husbands having sex, and dating, and having intimate conversations, and falling in love, with another woman, while she washes his shirts and cooks his food and gets treated like the maid. She would kick him out and get legal help with financial support for her and the children. What you have written is highly unlikely.

What conversations have you had with the wife?

Do any of the "well-chosen" work colleagues include the line managers and HR? If not, why not? What do you expect the "well-chosen" colleagues to do? Do they have the power to do anything, if they are not in positions of authority?

Do your wife's parents know that she is being unfaithful to you, having sex with a married man whose family she might well destroy, and hurting her own children? What do they say about that? Have you ever explicitly asked for their help?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
WW has met with AP's W
Did AP's wife rip her a new one?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 05:27 PM
Hi SugarCane,

Please I had no choice but to leave the family home it was one of the hardest decisions I had to make BUT I had to do it for my children and my own sanity. There was no way the Plan A approach would have had any affect on her in this state!

We were being systematically abused mentally and verbally and me staying would have escalated it immensely. One thing the DR members do say is research the subject and some members are/were WW, they have given me a great insight to the wayward and there disrespectful ways towards the BS.

Question is now how do I manage my situation..? More research I feel is necessary but will start by gaining back my friendship with her and being her safe place if she feels the need to interact with me.

Hopefully she doesn't see this as cake eating. So confused.

Mark.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 05:35 PM
SugarCane,

AP has moved back in with his parents but does spend time in the family home with my WW, I have had NO conversations with AP wife.

I will start talking to my WW but feel her attitude towards me at the moment is one of no respect AT ALL.

Why would I want to wait around for her to choose me as a plan b if her A goes sour? She would have the best of both worlds and all her EN's are being met that could go on forever...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
AP has moved back in with his parents but does spend time in the family home with my WW, I have had NO conversations with AP wife.
You need to do a proper exposure. Did you read the exposure thread?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 07:33 PM
Here BSs Plan C is not a Plan
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Thanks again Melody,

It would seem I'm in Plan C but don't really have a choice!

Yes you do have choices and you have made the wrong one. You should be in Plan A.

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My situation does not allow me to TOTALLY go NC with my WW due to family commitments. Do you suggest I should NOT allow my boys to see their mum when they can? Again that doesn't involve me as I'm not in the picture, civil goodbyes is all the conversation I have when this happens.

NC is for you and your wife, not your children. Even so, you should not be in Plan B. All you did was hand your wife and your children over to the OM for no good reason.

[quote\I have no other contact at all except logistics for hand overs and emergencies. [/quote]

You have remained in contact which has made the situation WORSE.

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I have to co-parent and keep this very business like no friendly conversations just give or take the boys depending on where they are on our parenting rota.

i agree it is cute and trendy to say "co-parenting" but that is not healthy for anyone concerned here. Least of all your marriage.

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Now that I'm in Plan C how can I make this as best as I can to give me any chance of reconciling my MR (marriage)?

You can stop Plan C and go into Plan B.

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WW has met with AP's W but you are right about his side as I only know about WW family as I have told them all. Again not sure about there work colleagues either and would appreciate anybody's templates for HR letters regarding their exposure.

Mark.

First off, you have no idea if the OM's wife even knows about the affair. And secondly, the authorities at the workplace would very much apperciate knowing that they are being placed in legal jeopardy by a reckless workplace affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
SugarCane,

AP has moved back in with his parents but does spend time in the family home with my WW, I have had NO conversations with AP wife.

I will start talking to my WW but feel her attitude towards me at the moment is one of no respect AT ALL.

Why would I want to wait around for her to choose me as a plan b if her A goes sour? She would have the best of both worlds and all her EN's are being met that could go on forever...

She has the best of both worlds right now with you enabling her affair. Your strategy serves the AFFAIR, not your marriage, not your children. Your marriage, home and children have been handed over to the OM. BY YOU.

Anyway, did you need some help? WE might be able to help you, but we won't help you with a failed strategy.
Posted By: abrrba Re: Struggling With Detachment - 10/31/17 09:33 PM
Mark_P,

I wanted to make sure you understood that MelodyLane and BrainHurts are among the most experienced and knowledgeable on this forum. Their advice may be counter to what you've read on DB, but then DB does not have a good track record saving marriages like MB does. Their advice is directly in line with Dr. Harley's advice...and his advice is based on 40 years of experience of successfully saving marriages.

MelodyLane, BrainHurts and many others here will help you save your M if that is what you wish, they care more than you can imagine. Please follow their advice, even though some of it might be difficult. Believe me, your best odds at saving your M is to listen to them.

I wish you well.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 09:52 AM
Hello All,

Right off the bat I appreciate all of your contributions and advice given it�s a very difficult time for me and my children.

I suppose we are where we are in regards to my situation but let me clarify.
1. I had no choice but to leave the family home � as much as this was and is wrong it had to happen for the wellbeing of my children and me.
2. Logistically I can�t truly Plan B as there HAS to be contact due to family commitments � obviously if I could this would be different IT JUST CAN�T. I have no means to have an intermediary so have to modify the contact as best I can.

Now I understand this isn�t helping my cause and understand your frustration for me but there isn�t much else I can do. Exposure I assure you the A is known my WW and AP are blatantly going about town flaunting this and had family members and colleagues testify to this, work staff have reported back to me personally that the A is known there as well. I have not pursued this they did it because they felt �I needed to know�.

Please understand I�m not fighting anybody on these boards, I�m in a bad situation and am looking for a way to try and gain a successful resolution so for me as Melody would suggest Plan B is now my path and try to plug the hole in the bucket of her �love bank�.

I very much want to fight for my MR but will always be hampered due to my circumstances please don�t disregard my problem due to me unable to follow the �plan� word for word! I hope you will continue to help me in my situation but understand this is a massive challenge�

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
I�m in a bad situation and am looking for a way to try and gain a successful resolution so for me as Melody would suggest Plan B is now my path and try to plug the hole in the bucket of her �love bank�.

Here our suggestion: 1. EXPOSE the affair. Expose the affair to the wife, the OM's family and the workplace. Don't tell us "everybody knows." You don't know what they know and if they know unless you do it.

2. Go into Plan A. All you are doing with Plan C is making the OM look better and greatly harming your chances. Giving her the cold shoulder and being "businesslike" [whatever this means] makes the OM more attractive. Do you think the OM is being "businesslike" with her? I really don't think you want to do that. So far you have only helped the OM destroy your family.

So, we will help you do things that are helpful, not harmful. We won't help you do destructive things. That is like asking us to help you push the car up the hill and you refuse to turn off the parking brake. Drop your plan, it sucks.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 11:12 AM
Hi Melody,

Thanks this is exactly what I need and I bow to your experience, does me going to Plan A even though I�m separated from WW smack of cake eating? Does this not extend the timescale further? Will I pursuing her not just push her more towards the AP�?

I intend to make sure AP W is aware and use the template to communicate to WW/AP workplace.

I know I ask a lot BUT could the forum share its thoughts on how I can instigate Plan A in my current situation?

Thanks.

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hi Melody,

Thanks this is exactly what I need and I bow to your experience, does me going to Plan A even though I�m separated from WW smack of cake eating? Does this not extend the timescale further? Will I pursuing her not just push her more towards the AP�?

You have already pushed her away with your cold shoulder treatment. That is not attractive to a woman. Plan A gives you the best chance because it serves to attract her back.

But you have to buck up here and do everything you can to bust up this affair. You have allowed the OM to just come in and take your family. There are no guarantees but your marriage is guaranteed to end if you don't start fighting for it.

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I intend to make sure AP W is aware and use the template to communicate to WW/AP workplace.

I would call the OM's wife yourself and give her all the facts. in addition, you need to expose to his family and friends and your own children.

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I know I ask a lot BUT could the forum share its thoughts on how I can instigate Plan A in my current situation?

Others can comment, but the best way is to be kind and inviting and look for opportunities to meet her needs and make yourself look better than the OM.
You have a distinct advantage over him in taht you are the father of your chldren.

Do your kids know what is going on? Have they been exposed to this rat?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
We have been together for 12 years and married 7 with two sons aged 10 and 8.

Do these boys know what is really happening to them?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 12:15 PM
Hi Melody,

Unfortunately my children are well aware of the AP and so are WW family members, there have been numerous family occasions where he's participated. Come to think about it on her 40th birthday party AP was introduced to ALL her closest friends which was confirmed to me the next day! She has since had very little to no contact with these people�

They have taken my boys S10 & S8 away for a week on a �family� holiday this year.

�Others can comment, but the best way is to be kind and inviting and look for opportunities to meet her needs and make yourself look better than the OM.� < Will take this on board and look at how this site suggest re-building the R.

I will continue to monitor the post for advice and comment.

Thanks again.

Mark.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 12:49 PM
Hello All,

Being new to MB could I ask if it�s possible to carry out the principles on your own? Presently my WW is checked out of the MR and deeply involved with her AP, I can understand participation from her when she�s willing to reconcile but that I feel is a long way-a-way at the moment.

As Melody is suggesting I�m in a battle to better than the OM and WILL WIN with everybody�s help here.

Thank you.

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hi Melody,

Unfortunately my children are well aware of the AP and so are WW family members, there have been numerous family occasions where he's participated. Come to think about it on her 40th birthday party AP was introduced to ALL her closest friends which was confirmed to me the next day! She has since had very little to no contact with these people�

They have taken my boys S10 & S8 away for a week on a �family� holiday this year.

�Others can comment, but the best way is to be kind and inviting and look for opportunities to meet her needs and make yourself look better than the OM.� < Will take this on board and look at how this site suggest re-building the R.

I will continue to monitor the post for advice and comment.

Thanks again.

Mark.

So your sons are being taught that adultery is an acceptable lifestyle. Is there someone in this scenario who can teach them right from wrong? They are being exposed to the affair in a sick and dysfunctional way. They are being taught that wrong is right. That is profoundly morally confustng to kids. This is why you need to expose the truth to them and teach them that it is WRONG to have an affair and break up a family.
Posted By: living_well Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hi Melody,

Unfortunately my children are well aware of the AP and so are WW family members, there have been numerous family occasions where he's participated. Come to think about it on her 40th birthday party AP was introduced to ALL her closest friends which was confirmed to me the next day! She has since had very little to no contact with these people�

They have taken my boys S10 & S8 away for a week on a �family� holiday this year.


Mark, there is a massive difference between your children 'knowing' and you telling them. You will explain in age appropriate language that their mother has broken her marriage vows through her relationship with xyz. Tell them you are heartbroken and that you want to recover your marriage as this will be the best outcome for everyone. Because you have not had this conversation with them, they are deeply confused and think that you have approved the current arrangement. Imagine what life lessons they are taking away from that!

Similarly, when you reach out to OMW and all the other people that will have an impact on your WW such as her parents and siblings, you will say that you are fighting for your marriage and want their support. Someone is having an affair right now with a girlfriend of mine. He told everyone that he and his wife had split up amicably and that they were in the process of getting a divorce. It was only by chance that I spoke to his BW who told me she was heartbroken. She also told me that no divorce had been filed and that he had only moved out after he had met this woman. Very different story and I was able to do all kinds of things to support the BW from that moment onwards. For example, I told the OW that she should be ashamed of herself. I also told all our mutual friends the true story.

The reason MB recommends exposure be done all at one time is to avoid the danger that the Wayward will spin another version of the story. You do not want her to tell people that have not yet heard directly from you that you are bitter and angry. You are fighting for what is right. Roll up your sleeves and do it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hello All,

Being new to MB could I ask if it�s possible to carry out the principles on your own? Presently my WW is checked out of the MR and deeply involved with her AP, I can understand participation from her when she�s willing to reconcile but that I feel is a long way-a-way at the moment.

As Melody is suggesting I�m in a battle to better than the OM and WILL WIN with everybody�s help here.

Thank you.

Mark.

No, you can't carry on the principles on your own. You need to FIRST kill the affair and attract your wife back.

Unfortunately, a lot of enabling has taken place and you will have to work hard to overcome that. Start by teaching your sons right from wrong and role model responsible adult behavior. By that I mean you should show them what a responsible man does when his family and marriage are under attack by a vile adulterous RAT. Your kids know this is wrong but their instincts about right and wrong are not being validated by any adults.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 02:25 PM
My father was a serial cheater who had introduced me to his OW when I was 4. My instincts told me this was wrong but that was not validated. I learned not to trust my instincts and concluded I was stupid. I had to learn right from wrong on my OWN in my adult years.

When we say EXPOSE we don't mean the affair has been spun by wayward liars. I don't think you understand what we mean by exposure.

Did you READ the exposure thread?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 03:33 PM
Hi Melody,

I see somewhere on the site a section on how to handle exposure to children at certain ages, I will re-visit and sit my boys down to make sure they gain an understanding of what their mother is doing from an age appropriate point of view.

EXPOSURE I did the exposure OR it was plain to see I understand that WW could have said anything about why she is doing what she�s doing but my character is unquestioned by all � I intend to �sound out� AP�s W and direct her to MB so that she can aid us both in destroying this A. I�ll also talk to her family members just to outline that although they know about the A I need them to also know I�m fighting for this MR and our family and would appreciate any influence from them in the matter.

Saying this I feel WW is quite controlling and narcissistic, people tend to shy away from A talk as they don�t want it to catch on with their R and instead hide away so that the disease doesn�t spread!!!

�Exposure targets
Parents of all concerned, family, close friends, children of the BS, workplace [if a workplace affair], spouse of the affair partner, pastor. Facebook friends of affair partner.�

Looking at the above list ^^^^ parent�s told, family told, close friends told, children will be told, workplace < compiling letter to HR, spouse of AP knows, pastor < no religious relationships, Facebook < don�t FB at all totally lost on that one�

This is a great start and understand why it�s driven so much here. The next stage is how to manage my interactions with WW when able! Any points in the right direction? Looking into love buster article and have ordered SAA but advice from the board would help a great deal especially if someone has been in a similar situation.

Mark.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 04:00 PM
Here read this Exposing to Children
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 04:24 PM
"ooking at the above list ^^^^ parent�s told, family told, close friends told, children will be told, workplace < compiling letter to HR, spouse of AP knows, pastor < no religious relationships, Facebook < don�t FB at all totally lost on that one"

So start with the OM's wife, his parents, friends and family. Go start a Facebook page NOW, find the OMs page and copy and paste his contacts into a document for safe keeping. You will need to do all these exposures on the same day to get the maximum effect.

Think through the timing carefully so that you can expose to your boys on the evening of this day. Can you explain what you mean by age appropriate? If that means telling them some incoherent nonsense, please erase that idea. Tell them the full truth, that their family is being broken up so thier mom can carry on affair with a married man.

You keep saying the OM's wife "knows" about the affair. How do you know what she knows if you have spoken to her?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/01/17 04:27 PM
The OMS parents will be a critical exposure because many parents would not allow a cheating married woman to darken their doorstep. The OM has probably told some big whopping lie.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/02/17 01:46 PM
Hello All,

I have arranged �operation exposure� for the 16th and hopefully all relevant people be hit at the same time.

All I ask now is advice on how I can effectively carry out a Plan A whilst no longer living with my WW! I basically see her for tops 15 minutes when I have custody of the children and less when pick-ups happen, I feel it impossible to instigate the guidance due to lack of opportunity!

Do I�
Ask her to accompany my boys and me on family outings? < Bonfire night in UK plus Christmas round the corner.
Check in on her via phone call once a week?
Remain friendly and a safe place for her when we have our face-to-face?

All the above I feel will be met with contempt as she only has eyes for her AP. Do we continue to carry on with this so that IF THE A ENDS I�m still seen as having some investment in the MR�? I feel this action smacks of cake eating where she has the best of both worlds which could go on indefinitely.

Mark.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/02/17 03:41 PM
Why are you waiting until the 16th? Why can�t you do the exposure sooner?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/02/17 05:49 PM
Mark, we are not advocating that this go on forever, but that you strive to attract her back. Once you expose the affair, it will start crumbling. Once it starts crumbling, she will need a safe place to land. Stop worrying about "cake eating" and concen yourself with being shrewd and strategic. They have no plan, but you do.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/02/17 05:50 PM
And let's say that the affair does not end in 8-10 months, then you can go into Plan B leaving a very good taste in her mouth that she will remember when her affair dies.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/03/17 12:38 PM
Hello Both,

BrainHurts � As suggested I want to make sure I expose to everyone at the same time, SIL is away until that point and I want the most impact so will hold fire till then.

Melody � Understand the concept of a Plan A but initiating it in my position and getting the strategies in place with the limited window will prove problematic.

BrainHurts � If you don�t mind I have questions for you�
When you were in you�re A how did you perceive your H (sorry I�m assuming no physical or mental abuse was involved)? Did you lose respect for him? Did you no longer see him as your H but an annoying presence?
I�m sorry I haven�t read your situation how did he go about bringing you back around? What was the timescale?

I ask the questions as has much as I hold out for the A ending in my situation it seems so strong it eats away at my resolve! Having the chance to get a WW POV is invaluable, what would your reaction have been to your H carrying out Plan A with you..?

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/03/17 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Melody � Understand the concept of a Plan A but initiating it in my position and getting the strategies in place with the limited window will prove problematic.

It's not problematic at all. Plan A means a) exposure and b) expressing your willingness to meet her needs if she ends her affair. In the meantime, you look for creative opportunities to meet her needs and present yourself as the most attractive option.

Quote
I ask the questions as has much as I hold out for the A ending in my situation it seems so strong it eats away at my resolve! Having the chance to get a WW POV is invaluable, what would your reaction have been to your H carrying out Plan A with you..?

Mark.

Brainhurts is a betrayed spouse. Plan A gives you the best chance at recovery. When you extend an olive branch, it causes her confusion and causes her to question her decision to leave the marriage. This most especially comes into play when the affair crumbles. 95% of affairs fall apart quickly because of the traits that made them possible, thoughtlessness, deceit and selfishness.

That is Dr Harley's point of view, which is what you need. He knows how to save marriages, wayward wives do not.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/03/17 01:16 PM
Sorry Melody,

BrainHurts signature suggested WW although Former that's why I asked the question.

Thanks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/03/17 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Sorry Melody,

BrainHurts signature suggested WW although Former that's why I asked the question.

Thanks.

Gotcha, i think it may have been years before she arrived here. She came here as a betrayed spouse.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/03/17 01:59 PM
Hello All,

Now that I�ve instigated Plan A I have noticed changes to her attitude towards me, an example.

Yesterday we had a F2F when she was picking boys up from my house to take back to the family home and we engaged in conversation which I kept almost flirtatious, talk went onto bonfire night and how she would not be able to celebrate it due to her being away on the Saturday and not back until late on the Sunday.

Obviously they were spending time away together, but I remained courteous and calm and said she could pick the boys up once she got home but have them back for 20:00 due to us going to a fireworks display. I was thanked for this as it was my weekend to have the boys but agreed for her to see the boys anyway. I mentioned she was welcome to join us.

Everything carried on in this vein and onto Christmas where WW said �I know what you can buy dad for Christmas� to which I responded with �as long as it costs �700,000� WW and I laughed. This interaction continued to go well with me reminding her of a dish that she made for me which involved an ingredient I was using for my dinner at the time she chimed in with the missing ingredient I couldn�t remember. I know it sounds nothing BUT was a major step forwards in her demeanor.

Today was the total opposite! I could tell she was under pressure due to her childcare letting her down and not able to take the boys to school for her. I obviously said drop them off with me and I�ll get them to school, again the conversation went onto the Sunday with a request from her knowing that I was taking boys to a display Saturday as well has Sunday could I give up the Sunday allowing her to enjoy bonfire night with them! I agreed and we went our separate ways.

As time goes on I feel I�m going to get a lot of anger towards how I�m treating her and Plan A�

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/03/17 02:09 PM
She is very confused and will go up and down. One day she will be friendly and hateful the next. Just understand you are dealing with the equivalent of a falling down drunk who is intoxicated by an affair.

You did great! just stick with it!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/04/17 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Sorry Melody,

BrainHurts signature suggested WW although Former that's why I asked the question.

Thanks.

Gotcha, i think it may have been years before she arrived here. She came here as a betrayed spouse.
MelodyLane is correct, it was in my first marriage years before I came here as a BS in my current marriage.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/06/17 01:47 PM
Hello All,

I�m struggling at the moment with building a plan around Dr H�s Plan A approach whilst being separated from my WW! I am getting to grips with his principles and his mind-set BUT feel most of these are based around a couple that have decided to reconcile and are now working towards where their MR fell down in the first place.

Obviously I�m nowhere near that point but want some kind of guide to start depositing LU�s (love units) into the LB (love bank)! What I�m basically doing is treating her like my best friend and allowing her to feel safe when we have the opportunity to talk F2F, my most recent conversations went like this:
Please bare in mind she had just come back from a night away with the AP (bonfire night in the UK.
WW �I had a tear in my eye last night as I overlooked the fields and saw all the fireworks, I was missing you� she was NOT talking to me BUT our two sons. She looked squarely at me then said �come on WW put your big girl pants on, you did this!� I basically smiled at her and looked at her in a way that suggested yes she did!

WW then asked me if she could take the boys and have them over night as she had not seen much of them over the weekend BUT it was my weekend to have them I said that if she really wanted but I also haven�t seen them and had adhered to our custody rota, she agreed and returned the boys back to me at the agreed time. < does this withdrawal from the LB?

All other conversation was a mixture of the family as a whole which I feel is going to be the norm. I don�t think this will be enough to credit my account more than the AP but will continue to work at it.

Question � do I inform the WW that I�m doing Plan A and if so does anybody have a link to a template as this is not mentioned in the SAA book.

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/06/17 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hello All,

I�m struggling at the moment with building a plan around Dr H�s Plan A approach whilst being separated from my WW! I am getting to grips with his principles and his mind-set BUT feel most of these are based around a couple that have decided to reconcile and are now working towards where their MR fell down in the first place.

No, Plan A is intended for your situation. Otherwise we wouldn't recommend it. We are not giving you our personal opinions, but the concepts of Marriage Builders as they apply to your situation.

Quote
WW then asked me if she could take the boys and have them over night as she had not seen much of them over the weekend BUT it was my weekend to have them I said that if she really wanted but I also haven�t seen them and had adhered to our custody rota, she agreed and returned the boys back to me at the agreed time. < does this withdrawal from the LB?

All other conversation was a mixture of the family as a whole which I feel is going to be the norm. I don�t think this will be enough to credit my account more than the AP but will continue to work at it.

You won't be able to make many deposits anyway because as long as her affair is going strong, her lovebank will be CLOSED to you. It is now open to the OM because the affair is going strong.

This is why it is SO CRITICAL for you to expose the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so helping them keep the secret helps the affair thrive and grow.

When will you be exposing?

Quote
Question � do I inform the WW that I�m doing Plan A and if so does anybody have a link to a template as this is not mentioned in the SAA book.

Mark.

You don't mention Plan A to your wife.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/06/17 02:39 PM
Hi Melody,

I had planned on the 16th BUT am compiling emails now for all except SIL who is away on vacation until that date. Once I'm happy with what I'm saying I will then expose, should think Wednesday this week...

Thanks.

Mark.

By the way sat kids down and mentioned to them the situation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/06/17 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hi Melody,

I had planned on the 16th BUT am compiling emails now for all except SIL who is away on vacation until that date. Once I'm happy with what I'm saying I will then expose, should think Wednesday this week...

Sounds good!! Please post the emails first so we can give you feedback.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/06/17 03:53 PM
Hi Melody,

As requested.

WORKPLACE EXPOSURE LETTER TO HR & TECHNICAL DIRECTOR
To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

I wish to inform you that I continue to stand for my marriage in the belief that it is the right thing to do morally and is in the best interest of my two young children. Please aid me in combating this affair.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BH

OTHER BS
Dear XXXX:

I regret to inform you of the continuing affair between WW and your husband, I was informed by WW on the 8th January 2017 that a physical affair existed between the two.

I am informing you to make sure you are aware of your husband�s actions and that I intend to stand for my marriage in the belief that it is the right thing to do morally and is in the best interest of my two young children. Please aid me in combating this affair by exposing his actions to your closest friends, family members and if possible the members of your WH�s family.

It saddens me to have to do this but intend to fight this to the bitter end. Please feel free to contact me at email address or XXXX XXXXX

Regards.

BH

FRIENDS AND FAMILY
Dear Friends and Family,

I am writing you this message because you are important people in the lives of WW and me. As some of you know, WW has recently forced me to separate from the family home and my children due to I�m shocked to find out her carrying on a physical affair with a co-worker who resides at XXX.

The purpose of this forced separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference in the family home exposing your nephews/grandchildren to this stranger and only allowing access to their father 50% of the time.

As our friends, I am asking that you use your influence with WW to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support.

Warmest regards,

BH
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/06/17 04:28 PM
Perfect!! I would make sure you also expose to the OM's family and friends. Does he have a facebook page?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/07/17 11:10 AM
Hello All,

Well the emails have gone and the letter to their HR department and Director have been sent. I'm expecting a massive push-back from WW, this is NOT going to be pretty... Wish me luck!

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/07/17 12:40 PM
We are with you, Mark! Hang on for the storm. Good job!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/07/17 02:01 PM
Don't be scared Mark. You will get angry responses but don't question yourself. This is exactly what needs to be done to have the biggest possible impact on the affair - and the angrier your WW is, the bigger you know the impact has been. After the storm has dissipated (which happens a lot more quickly than you think), you will feel so glad that you took such strong action to fight the affair.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/16/17 01:14 PM
Hello All,

Just though I�d bump up my thread and see if I could get some clarity on what the boards see as love bank deposits when separated from the WS?
The challenge for you is that the situation only allows for the couple being together for literally only minutes!

I feel I�m going to get a response outlining the bank is closed to me whilst WW is still involved with her AP but how can I effectively Plan A and try to beat the A in this situation�
I feel I�m just in a holding pattern waiting for the A to fizzle out (95% do within 2-years) < not sure about this all very clinical and statistics mean very little.

Has anybody on the boards reconciled from this position? To be honest I don�t see much reconciliation on this site at all� Where are the success stories?

My crash helmets on�

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/16/17 01:19 PM
Are you going to update us on the exposure?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/16/17 01:59 PM
Hi Melody,

The exposure was carried out with military precision, all letters and emails sent at the same time (letters sent so that a documented exposure was submitted also). As you�ll remember I sent to AP�s wife, her family and the director of their place of work plus the HR director. I also sat my boys down and told them.

I am still waiting for the effects of this to filter through but presently am seeing NO difference in her demeanor, could still be too early or that they�re not bothered and just shying away from the problem and won�t condone their actions!

What do you suggest after exposure..? Plan A.

How can I implement an effective Plan A in my situation? I�m just spinning my wheels and allowing all of her EN�s to be given by 2 men, she�s not likely to give this up any time soon as she has the best of both worlds so as Dr Harley suggest will have to allow the A to end in the wrong way having no other choice.

Hopeless� I need a strategy to implement!

Thanks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/16/17 02:17 PM
I have to say I have never heard of an exposure with no fallout. This is a first in 17 years!!

And yes, Plan A is in order. Plan A means being willing to meet her needs in the future if she ends her affair. You would try to demonstrate that when the opportunity presents itself. Look for creative ways to present yourself as the best option as her affairs falls apart and crumbles from your exposure.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/20/17 12:07 PM
Hello All,

Though I�d use this space to journal (I hope you don�t mind reading my drivel) and ask for opinions based on the content, appreciate all input.

My situation � separated from my WW since February this year, have two children aged 8 & 10 and am currently in a Plan A. I have exposed A to all (see previous posts) and am waiting on the fall-out which so far has not been forthcoming� The PA continues.

Sunday 19th Nov � Did not have the boys but as usual shared some time with them for a few hours, WW dropped them off to me and everything was civil. WW did not enter the house and as usual had her car running for a quick get-a-way, we talked to each other whilst the boys were gathering their things and the conversation turned to my night out (Sat) and �did you have a good time?� I know I shouldn�t mind read but why so interested�

I mentioned to her what I did and she seemed really happy for me! We had a laugh about her cooking for the boys previously and how they didn�t like it too much and basically went into a group discussion with the boys involved. The visit ended well with me running after my youngest with some soap suds for him which ended up on his head, WW gave me a very confused look when this happened a look I�ve not seen before.

Baby Steps � what would improvement look like?
WW to enter the house.
WW to spend more time with the boys and me.
WW maintaining eye contact more.
WW laughing and engaging in conversation.

We live in hope�

Mark.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/21/17 12:03 PM
21/11/2017

All,

Boys staying with me for the next two night as is the schedule, WW dropped off their stuff and actually came into the house!
Continuing Plan A I started talking to her about my fundraising and Movember, anybody who doesn�t know what this is it�s being sponsored to grow a moustache throughout November for men�s charities.

I have a full beard now which is a total 180 for me being ex-military and told to shave every day! My WW has never seen me like this but once she heard MIL sponsored me as well has SIL she coughed up sponsorship also.
This is becoming a conversation starter for us and much amusement as well! We have been very civil to each other and have not argued in months, arguing I see as the enemy now and keep reminding myself that it withdraws massively, I intend to build the LB up NOT take away from it.

WW is suffering from a cold at the moment which gave me a chance to deposit a little by mentioning the need for her to �better look after herself� I didn�t say I could help her as I feel at the moment this would be pushing it a little too far. We had lots of eye contact throughout the encounter and it felt quite positive. WW mentioned that she was going to �go and do the pile of ironing, have a bath then go to bed�, why would she mention this? Mind reading needs to be managed more than anything else I�m facing at the moment!

Later in the evening WW text me �Could I FaceTime the boys quickly�, she seems to be a master of mental torture as again mind reading led me to wonder what was so important that she had to rush talking to her children..?

Another rollercoaster night!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/21/17 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
This is becoming a conversation starter for us and much amusement as well! We have been very civil to each other and have not argued in months, arguing I see as the enemy now and keep reminding myself that it withdraws massively, I intend to build the LB up NOT take away from it.

You got it! Arguing is always a stupid strategy for marriage and you certainly can't afford it now.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/22/17 09:56 AM
Hello All,

I see this a lot with WW. Last night (see my previous post) WW and I had a quite civil encounter whilst she was dropping off things for the boys as is our visitation rota, tonight she didn�t even turn up at my place and instead phoned in the first instance then FaceTimed the boys later.

I call this the �push-back� where I feel WW sees her actions as AGAINST her AP and instead in favor of the MR! She IMHO actually feels guilty for spending quality time with me and needs to justify her actions by going the opposite direction and punish not just me but the boys also by not physically seeing them.

In one respect I see this as a small victory but in another am hurt at how much control this A as on her actions.

It never ceases to amaze me how blind an A makes even the most intelligent individuals and of course how impactful their change of loyalties hits the BS�

Thanks.

Mark.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/22/17 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
I call this the �push-back� where I feel WW sees her actions as AGAINST her AP and instead in favor of the MR! She IMHO actually feels guilty for spending quality time with me and needs to justify her actions by going the opposite direction and punish not just me but the boys also by not physically seeing them.

It's very typical in affairs. You will see her more and more as her affair crumbles.
Posted By: Ariel Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/24/17 04:04 PM
Recent post have been removed from this thread. Please do not restart that discussion.

Posters are welcome to post for help with their marriages, but not to challenge Dr Harley or any contributor who gives his advice.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/24/17 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/24/17 04:15 PM
Ariel,

Apologies.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/24/17 08:09 PM
BrainHurts,

Yes I am aware of the article and if you like inherited the Plan C, but I will do all in my power to make a bad situation into a not-so-bad situation..

Unfortunately I see little except the concept of the love bank to aid me in a kind of Plan A which I am actively pursuing, no arguments or conflict just a man trying his upmost to show his WW she has made the biggest mistake of her life in choosing to leave the marriage. I will win her back I won't allow an opportunistic POS ruin two families, watch this space.

Thanks.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/24/17 11:08 PM
Hello All,

I think I pushed too far with WW tonight. WW picked up the boys from me and she mentioned that she wasn't feeling well enough to take the boys to the pictures as promised but would on Sunday, I took all this on board and remained civil whilst we said our goodbyes.

Later I text her "I was so close in asking whether I could come to the pictures with you tonight lol I hope you have a good time with the boys and hope you feel better soon" about two hours later she replied with a text saying "was an unacceptable text" that's it.

Did I pursue her too much? I feel I won't try this again but really didn't think much of what I sent to be objectable!

Do you feel I withdrew all of the good deposits I recently was able to do in my situation and why did she react that way..?

I feel what I did made her feel guilty which in turn made her unhappy with me, not a good move!

Thanks.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/26/17 05:50 AM
Mark_P ,

What is preventing you from moving Back to your home and implementing your Plan A there instead of from afar?? A Plan A while separated has very little chance of success. Hence, no surprise she rejected your offer to the movies - she doesn't feel you care. Also, it's very hard to believe that she didn't react to your exposure,

Tom
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/26/17 10:42 AM
Hello Tom,

As mentioned many times I don't take lightly the action of leaving my family and family home and this should give some indication what WE were going through with her attitude towards us.

Returning would be a kamikazi move for the marriage. I would not only withdraw from her love bank I'd blow it up!

"Doesn't feel I care" < this OR guilty I have shown in the text how much I care and continue to be invested in her so don't think she feels this way. More likely she can't be seen to do anything against her AP but when the masks come off that could change.

I'm in this situation and need to find solutions that work.
Staying happy and confident in her presence.
NEVER arguing.
Getting out and about to keep my sanity.
And work on myself and what I feel I did to get us to this point.

Initially I mentioned in my posts that exposure was completed early in my situation months BEFORE I came to these boards so when I did expose again it was old news and wasn't expecting much in a way of a reaction.

"Little chance of success" thanks for the reassurance. Luckily I'm stronger than that and will politely ignore your comment and continue to stand for my marriage.

I'll keep journaling each day as there my be some snippets other can take away from my situation and either use or discard.

Please remember Dr Harley suggest the man move out under certain circumstances rest assured my situation falls under these circumstances.

Regards.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/26/17 03:45 PM
Have you written Dr. Harley?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/26/17 07:40 PM
Hi BrainHurts,

Could you point me in the right direction..?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/26/17 07:43 PM
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/27/17 09:37 AM
BrainHurts,

I'll compose and send.

Thanks.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/29/17 11:48 PM
Hey Mark,

I only have a moment here but plan to read your thread over tonight and respond. I recognize your story from another forum and I'm so glad you've left there. 25years and Sandi2 have led more betrayed men astray over there then I care to mention. I don't think you had a single recovered marriage poster respond to you over there. They are completely oblivious to the absolute failure the divorce busting idea of detaching and waiting is to betrayed men (sometimes it works for women because it's like Plan B here but it never works for guys).

You were instinctively bucking their system and insisting on taking action. The fact they were criticizing you is a compliment. It's too bad you weren't here last January when a solid plan a would have had more impact but it's never too late.


I'll be back.

I haven't posted in a bit but a friend asked me to look into your story.

I'm still happily recovered now - 12+ years --- wow.

Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/30/17 11:20 AM
Hi MrWondering,

I appreciate you popping by it�s refreshing to hear of success I congratulate you.

You are quite right I POSSIBLY made the wrong choice initially when researching the subject and decided to gain knowledge from DB!

Their principles are very counter-intuitive I received major 2x4�s due to this that said some of the advice I got from those you mention especially how a WW sees her H was almost identical to what I was and continue to experience in my situation, Mr. Nice Guy syndrome is a particular sticking point for me.

If you have read through my posts on their forum you�ll see I just couldn�t comply with the advice as I felt it was just forcing us further and further apart instead of bringing us back together. I was hit with the fact that trying to be her friend would lead to �cake-eating� and would only escalate or extend the A indefinitely and in fact at one point was asked �why settle for something anybody can be for your W namely a friend!� MB would suggest build up the LB (love bank) by doing exactly this and to me makes more sense after all this is how the AP gained her attention�

I�m at a loss now though as I seem to be in a rigid Plan C although sticking to the principles of a Plan A, as your aware very early I had no choice but to leave the family home which in essence drove me towards Plan B but with continued contact due to family commitments I just can�t get around. < I feel this will get me MORE 2x4�s from this forum!

To be brutally honest as much as I want to apply the strategy�s and am trying my very best I�m getting to the point where I�m pinning all my hopes on the A petering out but at least being her friend and safe place will help IF this happens allowing reconciliation more likely than her falling back in limerence with another!

As with all on any forum (MB, DB or whatever) I�m looking for that magic formula and would love your input and those of the forum especially in my unique situation, I will continue the fight be happy and confident in her presence and NEVER argue as this is all I can do.

I�m in it for the long haul and will look at where my M fell down by MY actions and work on them whilst trying to comply with the Plan A approach of MB, wish me luck�

Thanks again.

Mark.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/30/17 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
BrainHurts,

I'll compose and send.

Thanks.
Did you write Dr. Harely? Have you heard back?
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Struggling With Detachment - 11/30/17 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
You are quite right I POSSIBLY made the wrong choice initially when researching the subject and decided to gain knowledge from DB!

The fact you waited from DDAY to June to even seek outside knowledge tells me you POSSIBLY have relied way too much on your own intuition and "plan conflict avoidance" wayyyyyyy too long. It doesn't really surprise me that you choose DB as the system to undertake as it's the least aggressive and easiest to do. They just advise you wait it out and endure the affair (almost as though your spouse has the right to have it) while you detach more and more until, hopefully, you get over her before the eventual divorce. The resistance you received is you still wanted to affect the outcome and passive-aggressively exert influence over the situation. I submit your instincts were correct but your techniques of such PA exertion need refinement.

Another thing DB has done has taught you that forums aren't necessarily correct so hopefully your experience there won't make you hesitant or resistant to what I have to say.


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Their principles are very counter-intuitive I received major 2x4�s due to this that said some of the advice I got from those you mention especially how a WW sees her H was almost identical to what I was and continue to experience in my situation, Mr. Nice Guy syndrome is a particular sticking point for me.

All the "Mr. Nice Guy" stuff is such pop pyschology bullcrap. You should know the guy that wrote that (Dr. Glover) had an affair on his first wife, tried to recover, went back to his "soulmate" affair partner and had the epipheny to write that book basically rationalizing and justifying his affairs and divorce (he only married wife #1 because he was supposedly a passive aggressive 'nice guy' - if only he'd been more authentic he wouldn't have ever married her and made that mistake). He then married his soulmate office co-worker and even dedicated his book to her only to divorce her a couple years later again discovering that he'd not really become an authentic man.

Being a nice guy really is ok. Jesus was a pretty nice guy himself.




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To be brutally honest as much as I want to apply the strategy�s and am trying my very best I�m getting to the point where I�m pinning all my hopes on the A petering out but at least being her friend and safe place will help IF this happens allowing reconciliation more likely than her falling back in limerence with another!

As with all on any forum (MB, DB or whatever) I�m looking for that magic formula and would love your input and those of the forum especially in my unique situation, I will continue the fight be happy and confident in her presence and NEVER argue as this is all I can do.

A couple questions:

1. Are you particularly religious?

2. Tell me about OM? His marriage status, his wife, his friends, his work and the work that involves your wife, his parents and extended family. What are his weak points?


You say you "at least want to be her friend" but, as difficult as it may be to do, a friend doesn't stand by you just watching you make the biggest mistake of your life. If you kid were 20 years old and smoking crack you wouldn't just continue being their friend and waiting for them to outgrow it. Affairs are kind of the same thing. Your wife is making the biggest mistake of her life and it's very similar to an addiction in that she not very likely to just up and quit someday on her very own. Sure affairs usually end after a couple years but that ending is usually abrupt, precipitated by crisis and the relationship, absent any foundational basis in reality, disintegrates from within. Crack addicts and other drug addicts often get tolerated and appeased for a while by family and friends until they've had enough of them and their behavior and either withdrawal and/or confront (an intervention). When the pain and consequences of continuing the addiction outweigh the benefits of the addiction (the escape - the high) then the addict quits. Plan appeasement provides the addicted wayward spouse a slow fall down into the abyss. The pain and consequences never, on any individual day, cause them near enough to outweigh the uninterrupted and unfettered benefits of the affair.

So while I agree it's pointless to "argue" with a wayward (just as it'd be pointless to argue logically with a crack addict), I think you are confusing arguing with a fear of angering your wayward wife. Any addict/sinner/wayward confronted, even lovingly, over their behavior is going to get an be angry. Afterall, you are interfering with their primary relationship (with the drug of choice or affair partner). No addict thinks long term. The wayward is just like the crack addict and simply worried about the next fix. They often conceive of and want to quit SOMEDAY as they know there is no future in it, but that day will hardly ever come if everyone in their life made continuing TODAY and the NEXT DAY easy.

Basically - you are coming here saying you love your wife, despite her sins and your biblical right to divorce her over her sins and want a plan to save your marriage. Plan A is such a plan. (and if you aren't in Plan B, you're in Plan A as there is no Plan C). Plan A is not the healthiest plan for a betrayed husband. It's hurtful. It drains your remaining love bank for your wife faster than sitting around waiting but it IS proactive and it WILL give you a better chance to either save your marriage OR give you satisfaction that you gave your wife and family it's best shot should you fail and end up "successfully" divorce (a successful divorce is one where you're content with your actions and able to move on without overwhelming bitterness, anger and hatred).

The successful MB men I've seen here and in real life over the years have basically competed with the OM and won their wives back. They've interfered and interrupted the affair to the largest extent they could at any given time without throwing temper tantrums. They exhibited righteous indignation and upset without losing control of their faculties and behaving counter-productively.

You are your wife's husband today. You are tasked with cherishing her and protecting her until your death or until she divorces you and releases you from that covenant with God. As such, you don't sit around being her friend while she destroys herself and your family. You can't beat her over the head and/or tie her up so you've got to be strategic and apply some (or a lot of) game theory to your situation but in the end, you'll win or lose knowing you did your best by her and your kids.

I've got to run again. But I recall reading one post by you on DB where you indicated the your wife was over at your place with the kids and ignored a call from the other man. My thought was that's great. You know OM considers you the greatest threat to his relationship with your wife. You have the upper hand. You have children with the woman and will always have a connection to her. The reason I asked the question above "tell me about OM?" is because I find that often in these situations the easiest person to "attack" covertly is the OM. I don't know the percentage but I'd guess that 80% of the time that these stupid illicit assoulmate type affairs actually come to an end is when the other man ends it. The OM in your situation is/was married with kids. Your wife was his target because she was one of a limited number of women in his vicinity willing to interact, flirt and eventually have a relationship (date/sex) with a married man with kids. Now that his marriage is disintegrating or over - and his relationship with your wife is more real, more costly, more headaches (he has to meet more of her needs) and involves kids that will never respect him and YOU an annoying husband that soon won't go away and leave him alone, suddenly OTHER women - particularly other women with fewer complications become more attractive to him and he ends up cheating on your wife or just dumping her and moving on.

The first rule of recovery is NO CONTACT. It doesn't matter one bit how or why the affair ends just like it doesn't matter how or why the addict stops smoking crack. All that matters to rebuilding relationships is that they do it.

Your wife WILL get angry from time to time over your interference, but your marriage can survive her anger; and, if and when you recover she will never forget how hard and resolutely you fought for her and cherished her (more than any other person will for the rest of her life). *

*contrast that to plan detachment which basically communicates you don't love and cherish her and confirms her belief that you never did.



Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/01/17 01:44 PM
Hi BrainHurts,

Yes did write to Joyce Harley but as of yet have had no response...

Regards.

Mark.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/01/17 02:58 PM
Hello MrW,

I see myself not as a blinkered person; I�m always researching and instinctively using or dropping methods or concepts mainly if I feel it�s counter-intuitive. The detaching and no contact for me are two areas� I feel are counter-intuitive and drive a wedge between both parties.

�All the "Mr. Nice Guy" stuff is such pop psychology bullcrap�. < As I�m led to believe there are no guarantee�s with ANY strategy, I must admit some of the learnings I got from Dr Glovers thesis can be related to me and I will always use what�s useful�

�Being a nice guy really is ok. Jesus was a pretty nice guy himself�. I�m not religious and understand where you�re coming from BUT again not to the detriment of the guy! A WW is so disrespectful towards her doormat of a husband a balance needs to be found allowing equal respect not the husband putting his WW on a pedestal and allowing her to �call the shots�, eventually she will see him as being below her and justifies her right to look for a better partner who will stick up for himself.

Do you feel WW�s are respectful of their BH�s..?

You ask me about the OM, I�m not interested in him he doesn�t exist in my mind. He is married his wife knows about the affair, they have two children both under the age of 5 and he has moved out of the family home and into mine although not officially as officially he lives with his parents�

My WW is a safety manager at the same company as him where he is a quality assurance �person�!!!

Exposure has been sent to their place of work his and BW�s family and all friends.

What are his weak points? The point of his jaw if we were to come into contact. I don�t know him and have not even spared a second of my time thinking about him.

MrW what I do know is I can�t control my WW what she continues to do is hers and her decision alone, how can you affect their feelings for their �soul mate�? There is NOTHING I can do except show her she�s made a mistake by �letting me back on the market� and being the best Mark and husband/father I can be, this is where I am at the moment.

MrW do you think my WW �visiting� our boys almost every night is making AP feel vulnerable? Do you feel when AP �visits� his children WW doesn�t feel vulnerable? Would this not sow that seed in them or are they STILL infatuated�
From time to time I do get the feeling that AP wonders why WW has taken so long at my place visiting the boys and I do feel she�s being controlled by him; I�ll give you an example.
A while ago my WW and I were having a longer than usual civil conversation when her phone goes, she looks at whose calling and within a millisecond she�s saying her goodbyes� I could be mind-reading but don�t think so.

Again we had a conversation about the boys and WW going to the pictures and WW complaining she couldn�t go due to a bad back, this was great for me as I deposited credits by saying to her that she needed to look after herself a bit better and understood why she cancelled the first date to take the boys pictures.
We continued to talk civilly and I helped her with the boys stuff to the car, later I sent her a text �I was so tempted to ask if I could go pictures too lol. Hope you have a good time with them and you feel better soon� in response to that text I got this �Not an acceptable text� that�s it! The text just didn�t seem like WW, was this AP talking..? Again mind-reading will be my downfall

Initially when the A started I did get in her face (being overly attentive) this just pushed her further away and towards him! Doing the same now would apply guilt which again would bring them together �us verses the world� mentality. I will continue to be the better and do all I can to deposit credit and definitely not withdrawal by being argumentative or angry.

What else can I do�?

Thanks for your support I need all the help I can get.

Mark.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/01/17 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Hi BrainHurts,

Yes did write to Joyce Harley but as of yet have had no response...

Regards.

Mark.
You might want to try again if it has been a couple of days, because sometimes emails don't get through and if you find that happening notify the MODS and they can contact the Harelys for you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/01/17 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
Exposure has been sent to their place of work his and BW�s family and all friends.

Did you expose to anyone else on OM's side besides his work and BW? Did you contact his parents,siblings, family?
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/01/17 04:57 PM
Hi BH,

I will try again with the email to the Harleys, sent letters to all his family and his sister as well as his wife.

That's to their home addresses. I really don't want a relationship with these people I just now want to concentrate on my boys and I, the letters outlined quite clearly what is happening and how I'm standing for my M.

Thanks again.

M
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/01/17 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Mark_P
I see myself not as a blinkered person; I�m always researching and instinctively using or dropping methods or concepts mainly if I feel it�s counter-intuitive. The detaching and no contact for me are two areas� I feel are counter-intuitive and drive a wedge between both parties.

I agree "detaching" (using the 180) is counter-productive for betrayed husbands trying to save their marriages and that it drives a further wedge between the parties. However, at some point in time, "No Contact" (Plan B) becomes a necessary "wedge" in order for the betrayed husband (or any betrayed spouse) to withdraw and heal from the continuing abusive relationship. In essence, you Plan A your butt off for as long as you can and then, when that doesn't work, Plan B is necessary to preserve the last drops of love in the love bank in hopes that the affair will end eventually (and hopefully quicker - without your participation). You don't appear or sound any where close to Plan B yet so that leaves you in Plan A for the time being.



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�All the "Mr. Nice Guy" stuff is such pop psychology bullcrap�. < As I�m led to believe there are no guarantee�s with ANY strategy, I must admit some of the learnings I got from Dr Glovers thesis can be related to me and I will always use what�s useful�

�Being a nice guy really is ok. Jesus was a pretty nice guy himself�. I�m not religious and understand where you�re coming from BUT again not to the detriment of the guy! A WW is so disrespectful towards her doormat of a husband a balance needs to be found allowing equal respect not the husband putting his WW on a pedestal and allowing her to �call the shots�, eventually she will see him as being below her and justifies her right to look for a better partner who will stick up for himself.

Most wayward wives have affairs due to a weakness in character and wounds (often from their fathers) within them. Despite appearances - your wife isn't doing this AT YOU. Affairs have little to do with the behaviors of the betrayed husbands and your wife certainly wasn't "justified to look for a better partner". Betrayed husbands tend to take too much blame and ownership of their wive's immoral and hurtful choices and the wayward Dr. Glover feeds (and profits) off that by giving it a framework. Your wife was likely susceptible to infidelity because your marriage sucked at the time just like practically every other marriage involving young children and babies.

On the other hand, I don't think everything the guy has ever written is complete junk or without basis. I just think actual "nice guys" often miss the fact that Dr. Glover wasn't a "nice guy". He fancies he WAS a nice guy that married his ex-wife just to go along with the pomp and circumstance and that's what society wanted him to do but IN his marriage he was (and remains) a wayward selfish entitled monster who tries/tried to pretend to be a nice guy while passive-aggressively destroying his wife, family and marriage (with his penchant for having sex with women not his wives, in particular). I'm assuming you WERE passive-aggressive, like him, and you could/can do better on the whole conflict avoidance issue but on the whole, I think the concept of the love bank, the failure to meet each others emotional needs and protect your marriage along with the "giver and taker" concepts by Dr. Harley do a better job of explaining how you BOTH ended up where you are today. The Giver and the Taker Article



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Do you feel WW�s are respectful of their BH�s..?

NEVER. Having an adulterous affair is the most disrespectful thing a spouse can do to their spouse followed by gaslighting them with rationalizations and justifications that it's their spouse's fault



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You ask me about the OM, I�m not interested in him he doesn�t exist in my mind. He is married his wife knows about the affair, they have two children both under the age of 5 and he has moved out of the family home and into mine although not officially as officially he lives with his parents�
My WW is a safety manager at the same company as him where he is a quality assurance �person�!!!

Exposure has been sent to their place of work his and BW�s family and all friends.

I'm so very sorry this has happened to you. It's one of the main reasons we tell betrayed husband's not to move out. I understand you were in a difficult position and FELT one of you had to go and since she refused, you just went but, I THINK (not having been in this predicament myself) the pain and hurt of having the OM in my home outweighs the pain and hurt of being in my own home and enduring my wife going out all the time. I'm sorry to say I think you made the affair way to easy and comfortable and, in doing such, caused yourself far more pain and self-shame than you had to. In addition, giving in to her made you appear weak. If the situations had been reversed there's no way possible that she'd have been the one to move out. I know you've been hounded, scolded and shamed about that decision many times so I'm sorry to pile on. You're doing the best you can by your wife and family. I talk about it again to simply try to reinforce that you have made mistakes along the way such that you may be more open to abandoning your instincts to conflict avoid.


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What are his weak points? The point of his jaw if we were to come into contact. I don�t know him and have not even spared a second of my time thinking about him.

It might be interesting to address this question with Dr. Harley himself. He often advises betrayed husbands, in particular, to confront the OM in person as long as they can control themselves and avoid instigating a physical altercation. On one front, a wayward wife currently in the mindset of a high school teenager, often gets goosebumps over the idea of men fighting over her. She might pretend to act otherwise but the whole drama of fighting over her makes her feel loved and cherished by both men. If you win there IS a fight and you win, you appear strong and if you lose, your her baby daddy and family and she ends up feeling protective of you (the breadwinner for her children). On the other front, OM's are like cockroaches that scurry away from confrontation. Nothing like getting in his face and telling him that you love your wife and family and will do anything to save your wife for making the biggest mistake of her life. OM's tend to break up with women with angry husbands. Like I said before, he's practically single now and can date anyone.

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MrW what I do know is I can�t control my WW what she continues to do is hers and her decision alone, how can you affect their feelings for their �soul mate�? There is NOTHING I can do except show her she�s made a mistake by �letting me back on the market� and being the best Mark and husband/father I can be, this is where I am at the moment.

I agree there is a fine line to be walked between boundaries vs. manipulation and control but at the same time, if her husband won't even TRY to hold her accountable for her immoral, destructive and hurtful choices, who will? An element of the marital relationship (certainly biblical marriage) is to some level instructional. She isn't your girlfriend that can just do whatever she wants, at some point or points along the way you have to demand (even it's respectfully demanded as a calm and logically request) that she "honor" her husband and marital vows even if that makes her mad or hostile or feeling guilty (she SHOULD feel guitly). Just because you can't MAKE her do anything doesn't mean you shouldn't try or that you don't have the right to try. You say it's "her decision alone" but like a crack addict, she's really not up to the task of making any decisions right now. She's absolutely soul sick right now. Like all waywards you can, no doubt, see the deadness in her eyes (if you haven't look closer next time). She's at the lowest point in her life and even though she acts like she's perfectly happy and doesn't want you interferring, she NEEDS saving. At the very least, she needs continuing in this hell-hole she's chosen to be MORE difficult and NOT appeased by you. If she's going to "chose" anything, it won't be until the pain outweighs the benefits (or OM dumps her).


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MrW do you think my WW �visiting� our boys almost every night is making AP feel vulnerable? Do you feel when AP �visits� his children WW doesn�t feel vulnerable? Would this not sow that seed in them or are they STILL infatuated�
From time to time I do get the feeling that AP wonders why WW has taken so long at my place visiting the boys and I do feel she�s being controlled by him; I�ll give you an example. A while ago my WW and I were having a longer than usual civil conversation when her phone goes, she looks at whose calling and within a millisecond she�s saying her goodbyes� I could be mind-reading but don�t think so.

Yes. They won't admit feeling vulnerable to each other because that might hurt the "assoulmate" illusion but they are both KNOWN liars and cheaters (to each other) and their relationship is completely built upon lies and deceit. There is absolutely no foundation of trust or honesty. They both certainly see each other's betrayed spouse as a risk to their relationship. They also often use jealousy and suspicion against each other to get some extra attention. Other times the wayward wife has convinced the OM that her betrayed husband is abusive and hurtful so she can get tons of attention from OM thinking he's saving her and "protecting" her from her mean and controlling husband. I have no doubt your wife bolted out of there because she KNEW she was going to get a lecture from the OM if she 'lingered' around you too long. She'd at least have to make up a cover story (so much of the conversations in affairs revolve around the interactions and triangulation of the betrayed spouses - what they say, do and how to manipulate them). Further, OM's nearly universally feign protectiveness and possessiveness in order to "win" the girl, control the girl and to be the anti-hero that says: "I cherish and love you SOOO much that If you were my girl forever, I'd never let a guy like me interfere with our relationship, I'd kill him or die trying". It's bullcrap - they just say that stuff to get good sex.

Another thought. OM is also insecure because, from my understanding from skimming your threads, you are a man of much more wealth and prestige than him. So not only is he a lying, conniving adulterous man with no character and no self-respect - he's got to deal with being compared financially to you. I was in a somewhat similar situation and I made sure to communicate to my wife an exaggerated annual budget and cash flow (i.e. - HER spending) knowing that she's share everything I told her with the OM. She was completely unaware how bad, nervous and inadequate that would make OM feel (knowing he could never match that budget).




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Again we had a conversation about the boys and WW going to the pictures and WW complaining she couldn�t go due to a bad back, this was great for me as I deposited credits by saying to her that she needed to look after herself a bit better and understood why she cancelled the first date to take the boys pictures. We continued to talk civilly and I helped her with the boys stuff to the car, later I sent her a text �I was so tempted to ask if I could go pictures too lol. Hope you have a good time with them and you feel better soon� in response to that text I got this �Not an acceptable text� that�s it! The text just didn�t seem like WW, was this AP talking..? Again mind-reading will be my downfall

Your wife's love bank is 100% absolutely closed to you right now. As long as she remains in an active affair in any manner you can't "deposit credits". Her "not an acceptable text" was definitely for OM's benefit plus it is her way of keeping you from making her feel guilty or having/expressing any hope. It's ALL about her OM now. He's her focus and anything you do to enable or appease her addiction to OM will be accepted and, sometimes, rewarded with feigned manipulative kindness whereas anything contrary or opposing her relationship with OM will be met with hostility and rebuff. The SINGULAR goal of Plan A is to bust up the affair. Until the affair is over there is no marriage or semblance of a real "relationship" with you whatsoever.


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Initially, when the A started I did get in her face (being overly attentive) this just pushed her further away and towards him! Doing the same now would apply guilt which again would bring them together �us verses the world� mentality. I will continue to be the better and do all I can to deposit credit and definitely not withdrawal by being argumentative or angry.

She really can't go more "towards him" than she already is. Sure there is some triangulation effect that helps feed their relationship but them clutching each other in shame, in secret and in fear is much better than them dancing around in affair bliss as though you are just fine with the affair continueing. The affair SHOULD be hard and shameful. That's what makes it disintegrate. The trick is being attentive, distracting, engaging, confronting, trouble, time-consuming without them realizing it and without being needy or desperate seeming.


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What else can I do�?

Be strategic. Disengage from trying to read her mind and use logic or reasoning to accomplish your goal. What is your goal? Kill the affair. Get it to end somehow, someway. Understand her manipulative wayward mindset better and stop taking the bait or responding to it. Making her mad or upset is often a sign of progress. Sure, she may "no contact" you but that's actually better for you and forces the OM to have to meet ALL her needs. Like you said you can't MAKE her do anything. The cage door is wide open and you aren't her keeper. She is actually the one controlling you and keeping you around because it suits her. Whether you are her backup plan or just a convenient babysitter is beside the point. She's simply out of her mind and you are the only sane person remaining in this relationship. You don't argue with her or try to logic her but you do tell her she's wrong. That adultery cheating is wrong and if she feels guilty or ashamed of herself, she should. You should tell her that she's going to regret these choices she's continuing to make and that you are the better man for her. You say these things neutrally. You aren't beating her over the head with it because that doesn't work. She's obviously not going to respond to ultimatums but she needs to know the end game here is that you eventually won't see or speak to her ever again. Sure you'll always have kids together but that eventually you'll remarry and it would be disrespectful to your future wife for you to have anything to do with her - besides it's just healthy for you to get space from her for at least a few years should you divorce (read up on parallel parenting versus co-parenting in high stress divorce situations). She needs to have no doubt that you are still TRYING to save the marriage and retain HOPE for a successful reconciliation. She won't like that and may punish you for expressing it but that's on her. She needs to also have no doubt that your current behavior isn't permanent. She is behaving abusively and she's the one behaving controllingly and that you won't stand for that forever. It's a sort of ultimatum; but, unlike a real ultimatum, you don't look like a fool when you don't back it up because it provides flexibility and it's honest. You've endured her disrespect for so long it's not like she will believe any ultimatum you try to give her anyway. Oh, and the kids are certainly going to be aware that she cheated, you tried to save it, married people aren't supposed to have boyfriends and that OM is the guy that broke apart their family (they need to one day be afforded the information they need to protect themselves from someone that devastated their father AND mother AND them). It's healthy for kids to know the truth.


Other than that you try to come up with excuses and reasons to need to spend time together talking and communicating (meeting her need for communication while messing with her head - every minute with you or dealing with you is time away from OM and time OM might get mad or jealous about. It also will someday make the withdrawal from you much harder should it ever come to Plan B.

You find ways to make the affair harder. Cancel her cell phone. Cancel her credit cards. If her car is in your name, sell it. It's your house, install covert security cameras and monitor it (the more information you have the better you can fight). Hire repairman to "fix" something or remodel or change something and hire a family guy friend you trust or like to do the work and spy on her or, at least, make her feel spied upon and uncomfortable. After all, the house needs to be maintained and spruced up to eventually put it up for sale (disabuse them of the notion you are going to be ok with them just keeping it even if, eventually in any divorce you may decide that is the best plan - for now, no, it's going to be sold and they (the kids, her and OM) are going to have to move to something more affordable (that, perhaps, will be more affordable for OM???). GPS her car so you know where she is and you just show up - completely by accident - so you claim. When she goes nuts, you be the calm apologetic one and let her be the lunatic in front of her OM. If and when you come to find out OM needs to go out of town on business or your wife needs to go somewhere leaving OM behind, use your money to hire a private eye and entrap him "cheating" on your wife and pay to have it videotaped so you can prove it. Talk to OM"s wife and try to get intel or, at the least, mess with him. Give your wife misinformation about OM. She really doesn't know him or trust him so you'll be planting seeds of doubt and mistrust. Even if he denies it, she can't be certain (maybe you heard he used to smoke crack or deal drugs when he was younger). KNOW anything you say to her likely makes it to the OM so use that to your advantage. Tell your wife you're taking Krav Maga classes (Israeli hand to hand fighting) so she repeats that to OM. Give OM's wife a little misinformation about your wife figuring she'll repeat it to OM who will talk about with your wife and when it circles back to you deny it. Maybe talk to OM's parents again. Calmly, respectfully and apologetically, if not playing the victim (because you are a victim), just ask them if OM is actually living with them or staying at your home with your wife? Put them on the spot. Make them uncomfortable so they, hopefully, in turn, make OM and/or your wife uncomfortable. Your wife likely has hopes and dreams to be with this guy forever and have his parents someday be her adoring in-laws. The infidels might go nuts trying to make you into this bitter, angry, controlling and abusive soon to be ex-husband, but your conversation with them will be the exact opposite. They will hopefully come to not like your wife or her CRAZY involvement with their son. This woman is hurting THEIR grandchildren so there is a lot of mixed emotions at play there and your wife and OM are all about trying to manage appearances and ACT as though everything is great and everyone is OK with this arrangement when, clearly, YOU are not.

I know that all sounds extreme but you are at war for your wife and family. Your enemy is a lying conniving INFERIOR man-child interfering (and threatening) your family. You are better than him. Your wife is behaving like a fool and, obviously, not thinking clearly and you're tasked with helping her. All is fair in love and war. Beat him at his own game. Right now they are playing you the fool. Let them continue to think that while you attack their relationship and try to split them up.

You are fighting an uphill battle because you've appeased this affair for so long anything you do to oppose it is going to be very obvious, so start slow. Gather intel, talk to OM's wife, engage your wife in just idle chit chat and try to get her to "share" her feelings with you or even talk about the OM (as much as you'd hate to do that).

Finally, it's unfortunate you aren't religious. I was successful entirely due to the power of the Holy Spirit inside of me. I was able to do battle in prayer without my wife even knowing about it. We were and are "one flesh" so it stands to reason that He and I were able to personally engage, confront and rebuke the very demons that had overcome her. I don't envy a man in your position going into this very real battle against evil without Jesus on your side. If you are at all questioning your faith, how much more are you willing to lose to hold onto your disbelief?

Good luck.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/04/17 03:03 PM
MrW,

Thanks for your response, continued support is always appreciated.

I am fighting for my M as it�s the right thing to do BUT where I feel I�m different is in the fact so many things are already against me!
AP is a co-worker I don�t think he is likely to be going anywhere any time soon, my WW has a career at this place of work and as such will never leave that position NEVER.
I HAD TO leave the family home (don�t bother with the 2x4�s as that was the right thing to do) and if anybody on these boards had to go through my kids and my life at that time they would have done exactly the same.
I have enabled her A way too much as has her place of work her family and certain friends. I feel his family and friends also don�t condone their actions�

What I intend to do going forwards:
� Be more strategic in sowing seeds of doubt in WW/AP head, use the opportunity when we are together to stretch out the time as best I can.
� Remain friendly towards her not condoning the A but just be there for her as a friend first hoping to build on that back to her most trusted friend.
� Remain her safe place allowing for her to vent about anything NOT related to the A as this is a well instilled boundary of mine.
� Validate her when called for.
� Just use the time to work on me and my failings and see this thing out.

I will never proceed to a D and will slow down her desire but this has never come up in conversation UNLESS she wants to punish me for NOT being that Mr. Nice Guy.

You may be aware my DB post was about limerence and how over time relationships deteriorate, I�m afraid I�ve come to the conclusion that due to my situation and the inability to PROPERLY Plan A or B but successfully Plan C I need to modify my approach as best I can to come somewhere close to the concepts mentioned on these boards and just stay hopeful this retched A runs its course.
Even then they STILL work together so hold little hope for my M and due to this better off coming to terms with that and look towards accepting the D when she escalates it and get the best �deal� I can for my boys and me.

I know I�ll get a lot of stick for the above defeatist comments but the odds are stacked way too much up against the M BUT will continue as long as I can, once I can�t do this anymore I�ll have to go �smart contact� instead of a regimented Plan B.

I�m sorry I feel there is nothing much more MB can help me with but will continue to stalk the boards for advice or snippets of useful experiences applicable to me.

BH � Dr Harley did indeed get back in touch with me regarding my email but unfortunately offered little more than I mention above. The facts are I am unable to successfully Plan A or B so am a Plan C�er which as we know is plan chaos and confusion.

It doesn�t look good for my M but appreciate all forum members input since I first started and apologies Melody if I came across as argumentative it wasn�t my intention.

Hope you all the best.

Mark.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/04/17 07:44 PM
Your marriage can survive her losing her job or even her career. If that happens it would be due to HER behavior, not yours. Affairs are wrong, not fighting for your marriage or exposure. This is a big problem because even if the affair (or limerence) ends and they keep working together, you'll never recover. No contact for life is the first rule of recovery. It would be tortuous to you (and abusive of your wife) to continue working with OM and expecting you to trust her and/or be ok about it.

I'd suggest going after the business for failing to do anything about it. Take it to social media. Email her bosses. I've even had one guy years ago email the owner's wife (we were presuming the owner's Christian wife would be a lot more concerned about infidelity in the workplace than the owner who was sweeping it under the rug). I'd consider picketing the place with placards and signs. Maybe take out an ad in the local paper calling them out. Make them respond and feel a cost for condoning and supporting adultery among co-workers such that they either fire your wife or OM or one of them quits out of embarrassment. Either way - you've got a chance someday and you've made the workplace a very uncomfortable place for them to continue in affair bliss (accelerating it's eventual demise). An added bonus is such repercussions might make the company reconsider their policies, rules and procedures regarding workplace relationships in the future for the next guy (or you if your wife continues there).

Maybe you confront OM at the workplace and HOPE you can bait him into doing something inappropriate that the management will need to respond to or discipline him for. Even if it's actions against you (say his bosses feel they needed to send you a legal letter demanding you stay away from their business - that's just creating headaches for the management and it reflects poorly on your wife and OM).

If your wife gets mad and tells you that you've really done it now and she'll NEVER recover with you or even talk to you again - then you'll just take that as an indication you are doing a good job.

BTW, some strategies can be undertaking anonymously such that you can maintain deniability. Perhaps it's the OM's wife messing with the company??? You have no idea. Use a VPN to mask your IP address. Be strategic and fight dirty.

Your only objective is to kill the affair. Being nice to her or friendly or keeping in contact is only beneficial to the extent it interrupts or hurts their relationship.

I've seen guys talk their wayward wives into going to counseling with them "for the kids" or to talk about "co-parenting" or just to help the counselor help you deal with the changes in your life and "accept things". Any excuse to just spend time with them and, thus, irritate the OM, occupy their time and continue Plan A. DO NOT take any such counseling session as any kind of serious time to work on your relationship because there is NO WAY to actually "work", constructively, on your relationship while the affair continues. Just doesn't work. Instead you use the time to Plan A - looking your best, smelling good (throw out all old colognes and get new different ones - she now has an aversion to the old "you" smell), MOSTLY listening and letting HER go on and on talking herself in circles and trying to convince the councilor that her rationalizations and justifications make sense.

I know I ramble on about ideas that are pretty extreme but I'm trying to get you to think outside the box. Someday the affair is going to end and I've not seen very many, if any, successful recoveries where the betrayed husband just waited in limbo hoping to be the default position. It's disastrous because you'll never be able to look at yourself in the mirror and feel chivalrous and your wife will hardly view you as that lovable because you just sat there being nice while she went about with a total loser destroying herself, her family and life because you feared making her temporarily mad. Sure in the court of public opinion - rocking the boat in your situation will APPEAR mad - but going and behaving MADLY because you cherish your wife and family is precisely what gets you respect from your wayward wife in recovery. Who cares what others think - PUT UP A FIGHT. BE SHOCKING. BE UNPREDICTABLE. But do so strategically and without appearing needy or desperate (it's a fine line but you aren't begging nor are you being vindictive - just not rolling over). I guarantee OM's hate that.


Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/04/17 08:11 PM
Did you ever hear back from Dr. Harley? On last Monday�s show (Nov. 27th) it sounded a lot like your situation.
Posted By: Mark_P Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/04/17 09:53 PM
Hi BH,

Yes your right I had a response please see my post above. I missed the radio show but hope to catch it here.

Thanks.

Mark.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/28/17 06:02 AM
**EDIT**

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/28/17 03:58 PM
Radio Clip of Mark_P�s question
Posted By: Denali Re: Struggling With Detachment - 12/28/17 04:04 PM
A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with MB concepts. Please stick to the principles. Thank you.
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