CONFLICT AVOIDERS... this thread is for you...

Share your avoidance issues ...
What stops you from taking action or speaking up?
What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?
What has conflict avoidance cost you?

Pep

For me I avoid conflict to prevent the other person from being angry with me and it has cost me a marriage and has been a problem for me at work. I am getting better at stepping up to the plate but I have a long way to go. I think it stems from adolescent childhood, I was the big clumsy guy that the neigborhood kids picked on. The benefit was I didn't get beat up of course that doesn't apply now. The other issue I have in my marriage is my wife is 10 times as verbal as i am and i always seem to lose these verbal battles.

Share your avoidance issues ...

Ok- no problem

What stops you from taking action or speaking up?

fear of what will happen to my kids.

What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?

My kids have a place to call home. Occasionally my H shows the wonderful man inside. Really I do not get any benifets except my kids.

What has conflict avoidance cost you?

Self esteem
family
friends
confidance
respect
a loving relationship.

Happy Thanksgiving--- man that was depressing!

Perfect! I was going to bring up this subject this morning, but you beat me to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I feel that my husband and I are both conflict avoiders, him more so than me. I've never really been a conflict avoider much in the past, until I got with him. I guess, it rubbed off on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Conflict avoidance has taken a heavy toll on me, physically as well as emotionally. It left me in "limbo land", not really knowing where I was going and where I was coming from.

There is absolutely NO benefit to conflict avoidance it at all.

I guess, I thought it was easier not to hear and feel the truth than facing it. BUT, the truth has a way of finding it's way everytime.

You can run, but you can't hide.

This morning, I faced an issue of conflict avoidance with my husband. Last month, he got two tickets for two separate traffic violations which total about $160.00. He did not tell me about it... I accidentally found out about it this morning (I also do...). I was going to call our insurance agent to discuss the policy renewal and ask for an additional discount due to accident free and ticket free driving. Well, it's not going to happen. I asked my husband why he did not tell me about the traffic tickest and he said that he was afraid of me. Now, get this. I am 5.2., a little more than 100 pounds and my own husband is afraid of me. I admit that I do get upset at things like traffic violations and the involved costs and I probably would have wanted to discuss this with him, but I fight fair and I do not attack him personally, but rather the issue.

I felt insulted as a woman that he would be afraid of me and at the same time, I felt hurt because I feel that he cannot come and talk to me about those things, so something must have happened that makes him feel that he cannot talk to me. My husband's entire family is one of conflict avoiders, so I don't know if this is just something that he has grown up with and learned and that I shouldn't take it personally. I want nothing more than to improve our communication because it would lead to more emotional intimacy. I'm sort of lost here.

One conflict avoider is bad, but two together are worse.

Kati

Hello, my name is Jelly, and I am a conflict avoider. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What stops you from taking action or speaking up?

The deep fear of angering somebody
the fear of hurting somebody's feelings,
the fear of not having them like me, or approve of what I am saying.
the fear of having them never speak to me again, if we exchange words.

What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?
Just the initial fact that there is no angry words spoken. Nobody is angry.

What has conflict avoidance cost you? [/QUOTE]
True communication with my H.
Respect.
Friends.
Numerous inconveniences, instead of saying no I don't want to, I just do, and over extend myself.
Self respect

My IC asked, Do you think anger is a bad thing. I thought of course it is, but was afraid to tell her, I thought it might make her mad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kyellow4:
My IC asked, Do you think anger is a bad thing. I thought of course it is, but was afraid to tell her, I thought it might make her mad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> [<hr /></blockquote>~LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Jelly-
you put it way better then I did. Well said. You are just like me when it comes to conflict. I would rather be inconvienced then to say no to anyone. I have been working on that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kati:
I asked my husband why he did not tell me about the traffic tickest and he said that he was afraid of me. Now, get this. I am 5.2., a little more than 100 pounds and my own husband is afraid of me.<hr /></blockquote>He is afraid of what YOU THINK OF HIM... not afraid that you'll beat him up.

He is avoiding YOUR disapproval.

Pep

i saw this thread and knew it was a must read. but i am laughing too much at jelly's response to be able to type my own!!! i must say, jelly's responses pretty much are mine. i also hate anger and want to avoid it at all costs. i hate having someone angry at me and i hate feeling anger, with the exception of feeling angry at myself, i seem to do that very well.

i truely used to think my H was a conflict avoider and maybe he is, that is no longer my issue to worry about. what i must face and do something about is seeing that my actions of being in As was major conflict avoidance!!

i must not avoide conflict, repeat after me, i must not....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> oh I love this topic.
Because that's one thing I'm good at: conflict avoiding. I didn't even know it was called that for the first 40 years of my life.

I guess conflict avoiding is something you develop in the company of emotionally incomplete people (parents for example). Maybe when they're very critical and demanding, but maybe also if they're hypersensitive.

These people know very well how to manipulate others! They make you feel guilty or inadequate if you express your opinion. And that's how they get things done THEIR way.

Aha... time for us ol' conflict avoiders to develop a backbone and to gently but firmly stand up to this manipulation.

A few tips.
- do things that develop your self-confidence
- instead of agreeing very quickly, say "I have to think about that"
- don't be afraid of being imperfect, so what if you don't know everything or do something wrong?
- it's not because you have done something 1000 times that you HAVE to do it 1001 times
- remember that saying "no" might scare you.. but saying "yes" (when you don't really want to) will make resentment grow inside of you
- calmly stating what you want to say is very empowering
- how far will you bend over backwards before your back breaks? you can only get somewhere with that when you're doing the limbo
- you don't have to "explain" why you LIKE doing something: you are entitled to fun things for "no logical reason"
- read the book "I'm ok, You're ok" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
- use gentle humor

Anyone else for tips? tea? cookies?

I understand that, but what can I do/say to make him more comfortable in sharing things with me? Of course, I disapprove of the ticket, but I do not disapprove of HIM. When I found out about the ticket, I told him that of course it upsets me when he gets a violation ticket, mainly because it costs a lot of money that puts a dent into our already tight budget. I can't give him a pat on the shoulder for getting repeated violations.

Kati

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /><hr /></blockquote>He is afraid of what YOU THINK OF HIM... not afraid that you'll beat him up.

He is avoiding YOUR disapproval.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>

Hello Kati,
tell him sternly "ok sonny, you'll have to pay for that from your monthly allowance" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - like a mother would tell her son, but overdo it so it's obvious you're seeing the light side of it.
Then drop the subject.
He just might realise he's an idiot for getting speed tickets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Hmm, I must say, that for some time after DD, I was afraid to open up to by husband and tell him everything. I was trying to avoid more anger and hurt from his part. I was also trying to avoid myself, saying out loud, the horrible things I had done.
Sooner or later, what one tries to avoid, comes back to you, and you have to face it anyways. So, its better SOONER,than LATER!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MYRTA

Brownhair,

I think that is the problem. I've become too much of a mother figure. It really hit me today when he said that he was "afraid of me". I do not want this. I want nothing more than a man that I can rely on for a change. I'm responsible for EVERYTHING and I'm sick of it.

But at the same time, I think that I've created the monster as well. Maybe my reactions to these issues have caused him to feel this way.

Kati

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by brownhair:
 Hello Kati,
tell him sternly "ok sonny, you'll have to pay for that from your monthly allowance" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - like a mother would tell her son, but overdo it so it's obvious you're seeing the light side of it.
Then drop the subject.
He just might realise he's an idiot for getting speed tickets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . <hr /></blockquote>

Question ???Please

What do you call the person who lives with the conflict avoider??? The one who will not stop pressing the CA for the conversation ... ?????

I am sorry to JACK but just asking ,,,,

B!TCH, and pain in the A$$ is so nasty so I want to be called something with a nice title !

TU

I am a poster child for conflict avoidance and so is my H. I, too, think Jelly summed up the "why's" nicely. I want approval, don't want anyone angry at me, hate rocking the boat, etc. Same with my H. I had to chuckle at Kati's post about the traffic violations. I found out about my H's latest tickets when I got the cancellation notice from the insurance company.

What has it cost me? Emotional intimacy, open honest communications, you name it. The conflict avoidance started when my H and I were dating. We got engaged after a couple years, then a few months later he was having second thoughts, then it took another SIX YEARS before he'd agree to a wedding date, and that only happened after someone else showed an interest in me. People were telling me to give him an ultimatum "marry me or we're through" but I feared he would say "okay we're through" and I'd end up alone, so I never brought it up.

Since then, we've avoided conflict about probably every major (and not so major) issue in our lives, from differences with family members to what kind of furniture to buy. The latest conflict, in my mind, is whether he even loves me. At one of our MC sessions, he said he wasn't sure, then said "well I don't love her like I loved my mother." Now I've got all the MIL issues to think about (she died before we got married but I have always felt I was competing with a ghost).

Good thread... I could go on for hours on this, but I won't! lol

I have come so far since DDAY. My H and I fight all the time, who knew that was healthy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We NEVER fought before, I'm guessing some of you will understand that statement.

I pushed everything under the rug, now we are dealing with my years of anger and resentment that I have never dealt with before. Actually I think we are pretty much through that part, and now it is just the everyday stuff we fight about.

It is much easier for my H to respect me, now that I voice my opinion. I respect myself much more also, I am no longer a doormat. It has given me so much more confidence in my everyday life.

My H assures me, he will love me no matter what. I'm still scared, but now he is dragging stuff out of me, it makes me so uncomfortable, but our M is so much better now that we discuss issues.

My IC says, see he didn't leave you, you discussed your issue, and he is still there loving you. She is right, he doesn't stop loving me when we disagree, he really doesn't.

I will be 34 December 6th, and I finally feel like an adult. How sad is that. (oh please don't tell me Idiotville friends my real age, they think I'm 29, the Idiots) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

brownhair said,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I guess conflict avoiding is something you develop in the company of emotionally incomplete people (parents for example). Maybe when they're very critical and demanding, but maybe also if they're hypersensitive.
<hr /></blockquote>This is exactly my case BrownH. Everything wrong with me is my mother's fault. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (oooh, bumper sticker) She still has me wincing in a corner, but I'm now taking control over that, and stepping up.

SO LOOK OUT WORLD, HERE COMES JELLY!!!

Oops sorry, was that too loud, I hope I didn't make anybody mad.

Yeah, I'm still working on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY
P.S.
BrownH, I'm going to copy those tips. Thanks

Yep, I'm with Jelly, exactly the same reasons and responses.

I've thought about the "why's" and most of it stems from my older sister. She always made me feel stupid and that my opinions were stupid and the way I behaved was stupid. If I disagreed with her she would roll her eyes or throw a tantrum. She still does it now, just the tantrums are now sulking and tears.

Result, shut up and keep the peace.

Edited to add: Pep, it's no coincidence is it that most FWS's are conflict avoider supremos?

Jen

[ November 23, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]

Conflict avoidance = people pleasing. Or at least it's a form of people pleasing.

That has cost me a lot. I hate to be the bad guy, I hate to be 'the only one' doing the work. It did not occur to me that there are non-hostile ways to confront people and problems (and the defective parts of oneself).

It cost me a lot, but I gained a lot in this process too.

Pep I am hoping the good people from **edit** will join in and add some perspective...

You rang? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Did you know SYMC is having login troubles today and we're all left twitching and babbling for lack of something to do that allows us to avoid real work?

So let's call 'conflict avoidance' (which is impossible, btw) what it really is rather than by it's politically correct euphemism. Plain and simple it's dishonesty.

Now, as y'all might suspect from that blunt statement I can't say I do conflict avoidance all that often. I used to though. I did it quite well - hiding what I was feeling behind a facade of either pretend contentment or chilliness. Followed by crying, shouting, slamming, and ripping. What did it get me? More hurt, more misunderstanding, and a whole lot of confusion.

But the opposite of dishonesty aka conflict avoidance (which is really just postponement anyway) is not fighting and arguing. Quite the contrary a heated argument with flying dishes and heated words is a WONDERFUL method for continued dishonesty (conflict avoidance).

C

KiwiJ: yep. you nailed it. my own A was avoiding talking to my H about things bothering me, the A itself went on bc I avoided confronting OM when I didn't care for it and I avoided telling H. I am positive my H's A was about avoiding telling me things that bothered him or avoiding my anger or opinion, that his A kept on going even after DD as he avoided OWs anger/hurt etc and he avoided reality ....

What a dreadful pattern! I see the sense in Jelly's post: "now we fight all the time and our marriage is better!" -- I don't approve of 'fighting' for us, bc we need to learn to not do verbal/emotional injury in 'fights' - But we DO need to express our thoughts and needs and opinions much, much more frequently! And with purpose!

[ November 24, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: restarting ]

Pep:

I'm going 2 reply before I read others' replies, so apologies if I repeat anything.

"What stops you from taking action or speaking up?"

Fear, plain and simple. Fear of the unknown. Fear that inside, my speaking up is in some way a 'bluff', or will be received as an attempt 2 control my W. Fear that I'm 'not 2uite personally recovered' enough yet 2 speak up. Perception that speaking up must involve R-talk. My simple fed-uppedness with my W's angry outbursts. ...note that I didn't say 'fear' of them. I'm not afraid of them, I'm just sick of them. Waste of hot air with no useful or sensible content.

"What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?"

Time 2 continue 2 heal personally. Success? About 50/50. I definitely get the time I 'need', but the point that I'm not making doesn't get across 2 my W.

"What has conflict avoidance cost you?"

Early on, my sanity. Probably the A is, in very large part, due 2 the fact that we're BOTH conflict avoiders. But even now it postpones marital recovery (assuming my W even wants that). Finally, I have "detached with love" 2 the point that I "love my W, but I'm not IN love with my W." Really. At least I know how 2 get that lovin' feelin' back if I find that my W wants it. Right now, I don't believe she does.

"I am hoping the good people from saveyourmarriagecentral will join in and add some perspective..."

You might post these 2uestions there, or a link here there. Penny wrote a terrific article some months back about conflict avoidance.

-ol' 2long

[ November 23, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]

cerri, I like what we call it better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I hear you and understand that though, but I don't like it.

Restarting, My H and I do not throw insults or scream and yell. By me saying fight, I mean, I now say what I don't like or agree with.

That is how messed up I am, even a normal conversation, but with different opinions is a fight to me.

I'm not very graceful yet at voicing my opinion, I'm quite defensive and it isn't very pretty, but we are working our way through it, one disagreement at a time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Early in my M, my H would break down if I brought up anything about financial matters (I was supporting us at that time) - he would break down, literally - lie down on the bed and start crying. In those early days he used drugs and alcohol, even though I was under the impression these were things left way back in his past. (He did quit doing both, in his defense, the drugs right away and the drinking within the first 2 years of our M.) He also had/has a temper, but it is mostly verbal (yelling and swearing). He has occasionally broken something in the house, but never hit a living being.

My brother was physically violent and my sister and I were both afraid of his temper. He once got a gun out of the closet when he was about 15 because someone threw eggs at the house (my father got rid of all the guns after that.)

So, I am frightened of anything related to violence. With my H, I really couldn't take these displays of either crying fits or temper tantrums. I learned which subjects to avoid quite early - and also to be a conflict avoider. I have never liked conflict but I learned to RUN from it in this M.

I have a hard time now saying whether it was fear of displeasing him, fear of his emotions and what he would do, or ??? but it WAS effective in getting me to not start any conflicts. With my brother, it was definitely fear of violence.

2Long Penny wrote a terrific article some months back about conflict avoidance.

Hummm. Really? Do you know where? On my blog? Oh dear - I really am getting old and senile. Well -- senile anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

ps - we're having a little login trouble over there today. Don't ask - but if you can picture me smacking my head on my keyboard you'd be close to envisioning the frustration level. <sigh>

cerri: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gad! You have NO IDEA how GOOD it feels 2 know that I'm not the ONLY scatterbrained person on this planet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think I have it somewhere. It came from one of your yahoo mailings 2 SYMCers, I think. Probably about 2 or 3 months ago?

edited 2 add: It was one of the few things that I've forwarded on 2 my W. She completely ignored it, just like everything else.

-ol' 2long

[ November 23, 2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]

Jelly - it is a bit sobering when you dishonesty what it really is. It hits you between the eyes that it is NOT some benign habit but a truly destructive force in intimate relationships. A study quoted at Smart Marriages names conflict avoidance as the #1 predictor of divorce. I would suspect it's a similar predictor of infidelity.

But let's be clear on what we need to share with each other. I don't much care if my clients ever tell each other what they THINK - most of the time it's highly disrespectful anyway. What they need to share is how they FEEL. Using *I* statments - in a single sentence (non run-on) and then learning to ask for change in a way that is cooperative, calm, and courteous.

THAT is addressing conflict.

Fighting, arguing, using logic to prove a point, having the better understanding of how something works - none of those are helpful when it comes to negotiating solutions in marriage.

Unlike every other process for problem solving, negotiating solutions within intimate relationships must be based on how each of you FEELS. Not what you know, think, believe, etc.

C

cerri:

I absolutely agree that conflict avoidance is often the match that lights the fuse of the A.

I don't believe it's unmet needs, at least not directly. Maybe as a consequence of avoiding conflict and not having healthy personal boundaries (weaknesses).

-ol' 2long

I do not avoid conflict with anyone but my Wife.

What stops you from taking action or speaking up?
I am large, forceful,good with words and very persuasive. I use these attributes in my work and in my life BUT I am not good at scaling down these these skills within my marriage. I don;t need customers, colleagues and other folks to like me to keep my life happy.
I do not bring these tools to bear in my M because my Wife will shut up and sulk making my life hell until she gets her own way and I have almost always caved in. I dont tolerate teh silent treatment well. Never have. Tough guy with everyone else but soft as poo with my W and kids.

You know the cat's face in Shrek 2? Thats Squid when I've confronted her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
What benefit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?
Absolutely fricking nothing but a heartache.
What has conflict avoidance cost you?
An affair, my heart and RIGHT TO THE EDGE of losing everything

Cerri, My H and I practice the "I" statement way of communicating with each other, it is wonderful. We are discussing and solving so many issues. Before we never solved a thing.

If anybody would have asked me 2 years ago who has a communication problem, I would have said my H, but holy cow what an eye opener IC was for me. I realized I didn't communicate at all.

Conflict avoidance = dishonesty, hmmm... something else to be a shamed of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2Long - Yes! An affair, which I call an unethical attempt to fix something in a marriage - is another way to avoid conflict. Rather than addressing up front the stuff that needs to be fixed in the marriage the WP chooses to feel better by becoming involved with someone else.

I realize that's a simplistic view - but with the layers of interpersonal dynamics added to flesh it out - it's pretty much what happens.

And, of course, unmet needs are often the result of being dishonest (avoiding conflict) about what one needs and being unskilled in negotiating for those things.

C

2long said, <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't believe it's unmet needs, at least not directly. Maybe as a consequence of avoiding conflict and not having healthy personal boundaries (weaknesses).
<hr /></blockquote>I have been thinking about this often lately, just when I thought I had it all figured out, this dawned on me.

I didn't want this A to start, had I been able to say NO, when I didn't like the OM's advances, this never would have taken place. I was afraid to hurt his feelings, I was afraid to make him mad. Not because I valued his feelings more than my H's, but because I was a big ole chicken!!!

Personal boundaries are huge for me, I just don't know how to set them. I'm embarrased of my pathetic weakness, and how easy it was for OM to pull me in. YUCK!!!

Cerri,

I think I have a copy of that post on CA that you wrote. I'll look for it on my hard drive.

I think I CA because it feel safe for the moment! I realize that it's not a permanent solution, but for that moment, it seems at some level to make sense!

I am not a conflict avoider... anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My conflict avoidance allowed my H to slip further and further into his drinking ... and then into his affair... without me voicing any objections to his distancing behaviors.

NOW... we are both more functional at "finding our voice"... as my H likes to call it.

Sometimes, I instigate conflict on MB boards, usually by asking probing questions. It is not unusual for someone who has problems with conflict to take offense by my questions. Then the issue suddenly becomes ~my personality~ ... when in fact, the issue is the conflictive feelings and anxiety that were arroused by being asked uncomfortable questions. And guess what? This never bothers me.

I don't care if any of you like me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you do... lucky me. If you don't ... maybe later we can develop a better relationship.

Pep

I am the QUEEN of conflict avoiders.

Why? I grew up a quiet child with most members of my family having huge tempers. Easier to avoid than to have HUGE ANGER shown toward you.

I also married a man with a huge temper. He can out-mad me any day of the week.

Where has it gotten me? In this mess that used to be my life. My WH is still in contact with OW. He has moved back home (I avoided conflict with him, and let him). I have lots of info, but have to screw up my courage to confront him.

I've lost the little respect I gained earlier. Expecially my self-respect. I MUST get it back.

What do you mean - "I" sentences?

"I" hate you, you liar?

"I" want to slap the crap out of you?

K

My wife and I are both conflict avoiders.

For me it comes from physical abuse at the hands of my sister when I was growing up. Long story, wont get into it here.

But I ended up having problems showing or voicing negitive emotions. Getting better though.

Its cost me alot, just hopefully not my marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
Edited to add: Pep, it's no coincidence is it that most FWS's are conflict avoider supremos?<hr /></blockquote>Personally ... I see major conflict avoidance among many of the BS on MB. Especially the ones who REFUSE to expose the affair!!! "I don't want to cause more trouble."

Hell ... When the damn house is on fire!!! Ring the alarm and cause a ruckus!!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What do you mean - "I" sentences?

"I" hate you, you liar?

"I" want to slap the crap out of you?

Oh, thank you for that K! First time I've laughed in two days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't care if any of you like me!
<hr /></blockquote>Pep, I envy that, how do you get there? Or has it always been that way for you, and does it cause problems??? Seriously asking.

I think I read somewhere in the past few days that you posted also, "what you think of me is your business" something like that. I loved that, but truthfully, I want to send everybody a little note saying, do you like me, circle yes, or no.

I statements really do help.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kyellow4:
I think I read somewhere in the past few days that you posted also, "what you think of me is your business" something like that. <hr /></blockquote>What you think of me is none of my business.

When I use your opinion of me to form my opinion of myself... it's called "borrowed functioning"... something I learned about in Passionate Marriage... a book by David Schnarch.

This is the usual stumbling block to intimacy... by the way ... because when I borrow your opinion to form my opinion about myself... I have just boxed you into a corner where you better not move if you want to be my friend.

See?

Pep

I want to send everybody a little note saying, do you like me, circle yes, or no.

KY, I can actually see you doing this too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But you know what?... that is part of your charm, you are an "innocent". And as long as you can stand up for yourself, so what? Being nice is not a crime.

However I read what you wrote about your inability to say no to OM, and that ticked me off. It's a wonder ST doesn't want to kill that jerk. Or maybe he does. I always wondered what would prompt someone like you into an act of deception like that.

For me, I got to a point in my life that I had been through so much and had suffered so much that it ceased to matter to me what other people think of me. I truly don't care anymore. I know what I have lived through and I know who I am and that I have a big heart. I think part of it comes from having faith in yourself also. Knowing that you mean only the best, and also an acceptance that it is okay that someone out there somewhere is not going to like you. Usually it would come from THEIR fear and insecurity though, and not a refection of you.

And with Pep (if you are reading), you used to intimidate me a bit, but the more I read from you I see a certain compassion that comes out at some point in all of your convo's, sooner or later. So you don't scare me anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PEPPER- I must admit I was one of those , that you refer to in one of your previous posts here, I was in conflict with your oppinons,of course they were right, but I did not want to admit it yet.
You are a very strong woman, when you state your oppinions, and I imagine thats your personality. I think its good to be that way, you firmly believe everything you say.
I admire you for that!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
What you say about not caring what anyone thinks to form one's oppinion,its a really good motto to have in life!! I should apply it to myself!!

Thanks !

MYRTA

weaver:

"And with Pep (if you are reading), you used to intimidate me a bit, but the more I read from you I see a certain compassion that comes out at some point in all of your convo's, sooner or later. So you don't scare me anymore."

At least you didn't call her "nice." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes! An affair, which I call an unethical attempt to fix something in a marriage - is another way to avoid conflict. Rather than addressing up front the stuff that needs to be fixed in the marriage the WP chooses to feel better by becoming involved with someone else.

<hr /></blockquote>Ouch, the truth really hurts. Cerri, that was a good point you made. I always considered my H the conflict avoider when the truth is we both are. He asked me after dday last week why I never came to him before having the A? You know I never knew how to approach him directly. I have always been a people pleaser and peace maker until I get frustrated and then BLOW! These past several days have been the most painful times for me because I have had to face myself truly in the mirror. It isn't always pretty but I am starting to gain just a bit of integrity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have avoided so much that I have avoided myself! I truly never look at myself even when I do my hair or makeup. I couldn't, was afraid of what I would see.

Great thread everyone. Pep, you are great at asking the right questions!

At least you didn't call her "nice."

Well now that you mention it 2long, I didn't, did I? I don't believe that descriptive ever even entered my mind.

Oh well, still not scared. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And yes, I agree this is a great thread! Although I am not a conflict avoider, I do feel a certain impatience with that breed, so it helps to understand where they are coming from.

Pep - It's also called "external referencing."

*I* statements are statements that accurately reflect your reaction to what is going on in your life. They are about you and not about someone else - although they certainly can (and should) describe your internal reaction (emotion) to someone else's actions.

I want to slap you - then becomes I'm irritated when xyz happens.

I hate you - although hate is certainly an emotion it's more a judgment - I'd rather see a statement about the action or choice that triggered the extreme feeling.

I think you're stupid - is a judgment about someone else's mental ability. It's a thought/opinion and not a feeling/emotion.

As I said in one of my first posts - attempting to solve marital conflict by using opinions and logic as the basis for making decisions is bound to spiral downward into disrespect and arguments. Some people can do it well but those are the ones who already know how to have the feelings conversations and to work from a cooperative place rather than an adversarial postion.

C

Cerri,

With "I" statements regarding how you feel when someone does something, such as lie -

How would you state those without also including a DJ.

"I feel very hurt and scared when you lie to me."

How would you say it in a way which deflects the automatic defensiveness which would come from calling someone a liar, ie "when you lie to me" ?

That's where I get stuck in trying to convey my feelings when I think someone is not being honest.

Peppergirl,

I'm with you chere.
I don't give a rat's pattootie if anybody likes me.
I'm not here to be popular.
I'm here to make a difference,
see progress,
and sometimes,
that means making waves.
That's what floats my boat.

[ November 23, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

What a great thread Pep, I have learned even more about myself today. It was really great to see what some of you thought about conflict avoiders, a real eye opener.

Weaver, my ST actually tried to inflict bodily harm on OM. Luckily, for my ST, OM ran. (lucky only because he would have gotten in trouble with the law)

[ November 23, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]

weaver:

""I feel very hurt and scared when you lie to me.""

Let me take a whack at this one, because it's a very close 2 home problem for ME.

I've called my W a liar before, but not since a very long time ago. Met the angry outburst blame deflection reaction every time. Even now, I can't get my W 2 agree on the "correct" definition of secrecy versus privacy - the reason for the remaining chasm between us 2day. Her "relationship" with OM is a private matter between the 2 of them, not my business.

So, I would word that particular "I" statement like this (and I have done so many times):

"I feel very hurt that you haven't been honest *and* truthful with me."

Accurate and precise, because honesty is about her feelings (she is honest with me) whereas truthfulness is about relaying important facts about her life 2 me that affect me and her family (she isn't forthright about her "personal" life beyond her family).

She was "hurt" (understandably so) when I once called her a "liar, cheat, and a thief". Interestingly, the "thief" label bothered her the most for the longest time.

It hasn't been easy for me 2 find ways 2 get the same points across about how I feel about her behavior without LBing but still being truthful and honest. I find the "I" statements hard 2 keep in mind. I guess that's obvious, or I'd be fully recovered long before now.

-ol' 2long

2Long~~~

What a change you've made in yourself these past 2 years.

I am officially impressed!

Pep

"I feel very hurt that you haven't been honest *and* truthful with me."

I don't know 2long. I have to ponder this for awhile because I fail to see the difference between "honest" and "truthful". Although I do see that the words themself are kinder and less likly to bring on defensiveness as the word "liar" is.

How about "I feel hurt when I feel that total honesty has not been shared with me". Then you would have 2 " I feels" in there, as opposed to 1 "I feel" and 1 "you". And you would have completely deflected the dreaded "you, you, you" blame thing.

Oh for heavens sake, why does it have to be this hard just to get the dang truth out of someone!

weaver,

I feel hurt when honesty is incomplete or not "transparently" truthful.

If he asks you what "transparent" means....all the better.

[ November 23, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Pep:

Thanks!

But the truth (there's that word, again!) is that we don't have conversations like this pretty much AT ALL at my house. I wish we did.

I'm getting better at not caring what people think of me, even my W. But I do still like 2 be liked, and I really do love 2 be loved. I think I must still need 2 appreciate myself a bit more.

...along those lines: When I was in DC last week, my hotel room had a big mirror right over the desk. I like 2 work at my computer in my underwear in my room alone, and so the mirror wasn't much of an issue (I was staring at the computer screen).

But you know? My W called me back after I'd left a message for her, and I had the hardest time sitting there staring at myself talking 2 her on the phone.

...something for ME 2 think about... ...I think.

-ol' 2long

weaver:

I'm sure I've posted this 2 you before, but in case I haven't, it's something that Spacecase put on our iloveulove.com/resources website a 2ple years back:

"The Difference Between Truth and Honesty:

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, todayâ€™s date, whether or not youâ€™re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If youâ€™re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-ol' 2long

I feel hurt when honesty is incomplete or not "transparently" truthful.

I like that Star*fish. And you can bet he will ask what "transparently" truthful means, as he never even graduated high school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And at work when a staff member tells me an untruth such as "I didn't know, nobody told me" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I could say "I feel concerned when honesty is incomplete".

Yes, I like that...thank you.

In all honesty 2long, I don't believe you did post that to me before.

I will post it to my cyber notebook and think on it however, because truthfully it floats above me and I can't quite grasp the concept of it yet. But not to worry, I will.

How's that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you 2long!

Well first you have to define whether or not a lie has been told or if you suspect that the other person is not being truthful. Those are two different things and therefore there would be at least two different *I* statements.

If you've caught someone in a bold faced lie - they're standing there with Thursday's pumpkin pie smeared on their cheek and whipped cream on their nose and the pie plate shows definite signs of destruction but they deny knowing "what happened" to the dessert you prepared for company - the the statement is "I'm really unhappy when you tell me one thing and I can clearly see that it is not the case."

But if the pie is gone and you suspect that they were the one who had it but there is no direct evidence then the statement is "I'm confused by the discrepancy between what this looks like and what you're telling me."

C

Although the more I think about it the more I like the second statement regardless of what the evidence seems to be. In the case of the pie, it could be that your spouse caught the cat on the counter licking away at dessert and in the tussle to wrest the pie away from the cat ended up with pie and whipped cream on his/her face.

Yeah - I think calling someone a liar is not a good idea. I like just saying, "I'm confused about the discrepancies I'm seeing." It would, of course, be fine to point out what those were as long as you can do so without accusing, blaming, or name calling.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kyellow4:
and does it cause problems??? Seriously asking. <hr /></blockquote>YES!!! My timing is not always good. I tend to force a discussion on my time, when I am ready without regard for when my H is ready. I am working on this.

Pep

I donâ€™t think I should share my avoidance issues. To do so would just get everyone angry. At me.

Just like dealing with my alcoholic mom. I learned early to keep everything to myself. Never stand out or you will become a target. It is much better to protect everyone, like younger brothers and sisters, from consequences. Especially when the consequences are not deserved in any way.

So itâ€™s better to be a doormat. And a good one.

That being said, I am changing, I think. But I think if feels like itâ€™s more a change towards emotional independence rather than closer intimacy.

T

Thos,

Read your post and had to log back in. I once took a seminar called "change your mind, change your life" where the object was to discover what your "core values" are. The therapist and most of my classmates were followers of "A Course in Miracles", which by the way is life changing if you ever get a chance.

Anyway, I grew up with an alcoholic dad and gambling addict mom who had both died a couple of years before the class. I was not and am still not able to go back to my childhood in any type of therapy setting. I can not think of my parents in a bad light. So I suppose that is a form of conflict avoidance for me, and one I will never conquer because of my unwillingness to remember my parents in a bad light.

My point to you being, in the class there were several men who had suffered different types of abuse and part of their therapy was to take out the hurt on the punching bag. Not picturing their abusive and/or addict parent as the punching bag but the hurt and destruction as the punching bag while the punched it. They would punch those bags while crying and remembering the injustice and hurt inflicted on them by their parent/parents. It was very theraputic (cathartic) for them they said and helped a long way in their recovery.

Just a thought to share with you.

{{{{{Thos}}}}}

Regarding the "I" thing... my H infuriates me with his use of this technique. He does NOT say how he feels, but instead says things like "I am sorry that you feel that way..." -- and it sounds cold, unfeeling, and sterile. Besides it does NOT even sound honest - it's more like "Hi, how are you?" or "Have a nice day".

So, what's my problem that I react that way?

Sigh. I had all these really good things to say, and then the image of Cerri's husband with pumpkin pie and whipped cream bits all over him showed up in my head.... followed by images of their two cats looking absolutely bedraggled and covered in pumpkin pie, all over the Cerri/Cerrish household.

Now I'm just giggling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Weaver,

I too am a student of A Course In Miracles!! I'm always pleased to find another.

My reasons for being a CA are valid too. Seemed a survival tool growing up. However, it's not very effective to be a CA as an adult. It's something I'm working on too.

Between that and the image of me with the keyboard imprint on my forehead...... I'm glad I could provide a little pre-holiday entertainment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

Pep -

Thanks for the thread. I have always been a conflict avoider and still am. I grew up in a home where there was constant screaming and fighting between my mom and dad. I vowed at an early age (about 7) that I would never argue like they did.

To me, NOTHING is worth fighting over. At least nothing in day to day things. I would fight for my country, for oppressed people, etc. But the ordinary things are not worth fighting about for me. I just don't care about most things enough to fight.

This thread is really enlightening and its so true. Conflict avoidance really is just dishonesty under another name... but with one difference - sometimes people can't be honest about their emotions because they don't really understand or admit them to themselves!

I have been a bit like this at times in the past. For example, for me, the dishonesty came from not telling my H of my unhappiness and fear ie, 'I am unhappy in our R' and 'I am afraid that I will never be happy, because part of our problems come from your issues... and only you can want to change yourself'.

But I wasn't even admitting to myself that I was really unhappy or afraid... maybe I feared rejection if I admitted it. I was often the upbeat, cheerful, hopeful one when he was depressed or admitted doubts.

Still, here we are almost 6 months post Dday and nothing much has changed, except that we are further apart, so maybe that fear was accurate.

weaver:

Here's the first part of it:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree."

-ol' 2long

Weaver,

Thanx for the thoughts.

I cannot remember my childhood as particularly bad either. My dad was outstanding and protected us as best he could. Not much violence from mom after I turned 15 or so. After dad died young (cancer) mom became sort a binge drinker (she still is, at 79). She would drink herself comatose mostly when none of us older kids were around. Problem being, with nine kids, I am the oldest, someone usually found her passed out in the kitchen or bedroom and I or our oldest sister would get the call.

Mom could not be relied on in any emotional sense. No heart-to-heart talks, no help with homework, no nothing but stay out of the line of sight when she was either drinking or wanting to drink. If I stuck my head up or became otherwise visible I would become the target of all the anger and vitriol she carried inside. If it was one of my younger brothers or sisters getting it, I would intentionally say something so that it would be redirected at me. So I learned to avoid not only confrontation but also even the appearance of confrontation.

The same became true with three of my brothers when I was in college. They became hard alcoholics and drug users. I could never confront them either without it becoming violent.

Partly a happy ending, though. Two of my brothers have been through treatment and have been sober for years. I was the family support member in treatment for the first of them. The third brother is sill drinking and using after attending three in-patient treatment centers. I think he will die of it.

Al-Anon has helped me lovingly detach. Helped me lovingly detach from Wâ€™s A behavior too. Al-Anon is where I learned about codependency and conflict avoidance and where many of my wimpy behaviors come from. I guess maybe 90% of the men in the all-menâ€™s group I attend are not only dealing with FOO or current family addictions but, like me, also dealing with their W's A.

T

So...What's everyone doing on Thanksgiving?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LINY:
 So...What's everyone doing on Thanksgiving? <hr /></blockquote>Bugger all mate. We British lick our wounds at the thought of the butt kicking that the settlement of America bought us ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cleaning up splattered pumpkin pie and giving the cats a bath? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JK - heading out today to take two kids to their dad's and then leaving very early tomorrow for my mom's - on kid going with us. We spent the last five years using long holiday weekends to work on our house we're at a bit of a loss now that it's done. We may rip something apart just to have a new project after a long weekend with my mom and her bf! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Blessings all!

C

So...

How do you know if you are "avoiding conflict"..

or simply "choosing your battles"?

Seems to me that a very fine line is there.

What might be "avoiding conflict" for me...might simply be someone else "choosing their battle" in the same situation...and vice versa.

It must surely be individual.

Or...are those 2 things entirely different?

committed

Hmmmm..... there's a difference between being honest about how you feel in the moment and battling. If you are being dishonest about something that is likely to irritate you again in the future then you're avoiding conflict. If your partner is having a crummy day and doing something s/eh wouldn't ordinarily do and you decide to let it pass that's just being compassionate and understanding.

Errr... of course that assumes that the 'something s/he wouldn't ordinarily do' is relatively benign and not along the lines of abusing someone or something or gambling away your life's savings.

Edited to add: Addressing conflict is NOT (not, not, not) the same as arguing, fighting, battling, screaming, or any other manner of chaotic behaviors. Conflict is unavoidable. The only way you can have a conflict free existence is to be dead. And since none of us has seen personally what's on the other side I would suggest that there's conflict there as well.
Even if you are alone and stranded on a desert isle - there will still be conflict of some sort to deal with.

Addressing conflict in marriage is about being honest in the moment about HOW YOU FEEL (not what you think/believe)and then, once you are skilled at that, asking for and negotiating toward change in a cooperative fashion. Does it make waves when you do so? Of course! But if you think that avoiding issues will not make waves you are wrong. You can be dishonest and postpone conflict in the present but I can guarantee it will come back and bite you in the you-know-what sooner or later.

C

[ November 24, 2004, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]

Interesting.

CA makes waves, taking on conflict in the moment in a healthy manner damps those waves out before they swamp the ship...

-ol' 2long

Fine. I'll bite. For real.

Without going back and seeing who actually said these things, I do think ALL WS's are conflict avoiders.

And to sum it up very nicely, it's just another way of being dishonest--with oneself. But isn't that where it all starts, anyway.

It's so human nature not to want conflict. Just the way that it is. HOWEVER, during our developmental years, we only know what we see. I saw two very loving parents, that, however, never showed affection. We all (6 kids) just were supposed to "know it." Everything was provided for me, no arguments between them. Never saw the "control room" discussions. Where problems were resolved, arguments ensued, discussions were had.

Not a follower, not a leader. Marched to my own beat. Couldn't create waves that way, right?

Jump to adulthood. Never had the tools to resolve "correctly." Not an excuse; just fact. Always just thought that problems just went away on their own, right? So in HS, when I was pushed over my comfort zone that I actually had to work to achieve the very high standards that were set, but very attainable, first sign of avoiding conflict. I did the bare minimum. Second and third? My first two girlfriends. More avoidance of conflict. Always wanted to please and dishonest about it (whatever "it" the topic was) if I had to be, to avoid conflict.

Still was accepted into a very good college with, again, high standards. In retrospect, completely not ready for college. Or did I just ignore the tools? Failed HORRIBLY. Didn't attend classes, only had four "real" friends during that year. On the very dim side, discovered what I thought I enjoyed. Communications, specifically, radio.

Came back home. Saw what a competitive field Radio was and just crumbled. (Got an intern and regular job at two different stations, so, saw it first hand.) Went to the community college and tried to get myself back on track. Found a live-in loafer and didn't have the balls to kick her out. God forbid! More conflict! Couldn't do that, now, could I? Found enough nerve to finally flog the horse, and meanwhile met brown.

OK. (Don't forget: this is the condensed, 30 minute version of LINY's life.)

Met my wife to be. Planning wedding...Ooops! Pregnant! Pushed up the wedding by a year--did NOT want our D to be brought into the world without us being M. POJA, so to speak.

Everything going well for the first few years. Then, the problems start. Brown starts retreating. Depression sets in. And MB happens. This, all in the matter of about three years. You think I would actually attempt to find out what the hell was wrong? Even be supportive of whatever was taking place? Nope. Not me. The Master Avoider, at his finest! So between this emotional mess looming (and unavoidable, just the manner it was handled was avoided), enter stage right, gambling. Everything works out on their own, right? I was starting to realize, they don't. So, finances become an issue, and instead of tackling them and resolving, I escape into the world of scratch-offs to take the easy way out, trying to catch that quick fix. (It's no wonder I'm not a drug addict. OH, that's right: I am! To nicotine!)

So to sum up this big part of my life: wife in depression, has nervous breakdown, and I handle it by turning my back and escape through gambling. What a guy, huh?

So all this time, I am madly applying band-aids to the leeward hole to keep the ship afloat, while running to the starboard side and using an ice pick to puncture my own hole.

Ah...woe is me.

So, in retrospect during this time, probably had a whole bunch of EA's--whoever would listen and succomb to my charm. Male and female alike. Funny, how the one person who I have devoted my life with and to, needed my attention--no, needed me the most, well...

"What about me?" (Stomping my feet like the baby of six "should" do.)

So, this continues for a few years. HA! Pulled one over on her! I can lie about my gambling...hell, I could probably lie about anything! So, I became a great liar through my gambling. But we all know the ol' saying: Who was I really fooling?

But I "needed" someone to hear me; to console me. Brown couldn't, for sure, right? She was struggling with her own demons. How in the world could I ever lean on her? How could I let her in on my own problems? Heck, she was one of them, right? I didn't know how to deal with this. I was "burdened" with taking care of everything. Where was my attention? Enter stage left, OW.

The amazing woman brown is, conquered this on her own. She conquered depression single-handedly. Uh-oh! Now, how do I handle this? She's this "new" woman. She's strong. She still loves me through all of this. How? WTF?!?!?

So, dontchya know? Turn my back again! Well, I had done all of this for years, how could brown understand? Fell hook, line and sinker for OW's plot: just had a miscarriage, went into foreclosure (not $$ reasons, or so I was told), and no help from her spouse. Oh, poor you. Hey wait, me too!!! (Adjusting my halo.)

Blah, blah blah, blah blah. Yech. And any explicitive you can think of.

Oh, it doesn't end there. No, no, no. One more avoidance--for old times sake!

EA exposed, NC established...well, not really. For awhile, though. (That's me, justifying again.) And I again, was above it--avoidance--it can't happen to me. Why don't you think I still can't be friends with her? Oh, that's right: You're married, d!ckhead and the one you should be applying yourself to is your W, not some two-bit, conniving (sp), self-centered, selfish, girl-with-a-plan. (Did I miss a spot? I can't see the back of my halo.)

Brown always told me, "Until it's your plan is it worth doing." Well, duh, yeah. It takes me that long to get my head out of my a$$. Duh!

Well, for once, I trusted brown. I listened to her words. Very carefully. "If you don't stop gambling and don't stop contacting {OW}, pack your bags and leave." She's said this before. Without the OW part, just the gambling. But, I trust her. I don't think I ever did in our M. And I trusted her that she meant it.

Breakthrough? Bet your damn sweet a$$! 34 years, and I think it was the first time I didn't avoid a conflict. And I had a choice. It's not that. I want my M. I want my brown. I want me. And I want them all at the same time. Golly gee...you know? I can have them all at the same time! Amazing! Or can I? Is it too late?

So, for the first time, I was honest. I trusted. And I didn't avoid conflict. And won't again. This is why I completely understand and believe the statement of whoever said that it's just yet another way to be dishonest with onesself.

I consider myself to be very blessed that it only has taken me 34 years to realize this. I consider myself to be blessed that I do understand all of this now. I consider myself to be blessed that brown is giving me yet another chance. Albeit, the last one. I won't need another.

The moxsie is still there. Just peppered with lots of humility now.

Wow. It is life-shaking to see so much of my inner self scattered about in so many others' lives...

Confession: At first, when I originally read the beginning of the post, I was going in to read it with that self-satisfied, smug attitude that "this is surely my H" (CAer) and with that back-of-the-mind approach that "maybe he'll see it and recognize himself" (not that he's reading much, tho - but one does hope!)

Then I posted with some little admission that perhaps I was avoiding conflict - mildly - but certainly not like my H.

Then - BAM - all these remarkably self-honest people post! And it hit me square between the eyes - I am a conflict avoider, TOO!!! In every, single aspect of my life!!!

I saw that despite believing whole-heartedly for most of my life that since I easily wade into 'conflict' (debate, discussion, opinions, logic,etc), that I am a pitiful, dyed-in-the-wool, itinerate CONFLICT AVOIDER.

Having never backed down from my own opinions, having courageously (or stubbornly), logically debated virtually any point, having been free with my own advice and observations throughout my life and relationships - IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME that the one thing I avoid - consistantly, blindly, at all costs, it seems - is truth and honesty and confessions of FEELINGS.

"What do I actually ~feel~ ???" whoo. "Dangerous. Far, far too dangerous to reveal."

What is the danger? Why do I fear sharing what I feel?

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Every single one of you!

The first blow to the forehead:

Cerri wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What they need to share is how they FEEL. Using *I* statments - in a single sentence (non run-on) and then learning to ask for change in a way that is cooperative, calm, and courteous.

THAT is addressing conflict.

Fighting, arguing, using logic to prove a point, having the better understanding of how something works - none of those are helpful when it comes to negotiating solutions in marriage.

Unlike every other process for problem solving, negotiating solutions within intimate relationships must be based on how each of you FEELS. Not what you know, think, believe, etc.
<hr /></blockquote>2nd blow:
Kyellow4 wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If anybody would have asked me 2 years ago who has a communication problem, I would have said my H, but holy cow what an eye opener IC was for me. I realized I didn't communicate at all. <hr /></blockquote>self-image-shattering blow:
KYellow4 wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I didn't want this A to start, had I been able to say NO, when I didn't like the OM's advances, this never would have taken place. I was afraid to hurt his feelings, I was afraid to make him mad. Not because I valued his feelings more than my H's, but because I was a big ole chicken!!!
<hr /></blockquote>(K- I had not ever honestly looked at myself before! - I had blamed OM for being a pig and taking advantage, I had blamed H for an earlier event, but never, truly myself for anything other than 'revenge' and 'taking responsibility' for what I'd gotten into - NEVER that I was avoiding conflict at every turn!

Ceri gave me another:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ....attempting to solve marital conflict by using opinions and logic as the basis for making decisions is bound to spiral downward into disrespect and arguments. <hr /></blockquote>And, finally, pulling it all together,
Smur wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />This thread is really enlightening and its so true. Conflict avoidance really is just dishonesty under another name... but with one difference - sometimes people can't be honest about their emotions because they don't really understand or admit them to themselves!
<hr /></blockquote>Again, Thanks to all of you! Thank you for opening my eyes! Thank you for your candor!

I guess we are conflict avoiders too. Both of us are afraid of being real in case we get rejected.

So how do you break this cycle?

I am willing to take the risk,to do the reaching, but I know how scared he is .

It is like walking on eggs. Words don't quite work because he has been lied to before, or people have broken promises to him.

When we start to talk about anything that might hint of rejection from me, he literally stands at the door with his coat on...

It is like trying to befriend a dog that has been treated cruelly. He comes a little close, then runs off, comes back- I get too close and he runs off again.

Shul

You break the cycle the same way you move a mountain with a tablespoon. One tiny little scoop (or step - or statement) at a time.

When our marriages are in trouble we want to fix it NOW. But what we fail to realize is that fixing it now means addressing only what is in front of us right now. Not the yuck from the last 15 years (or months or weeks). Just right now.

So - what's in front of you right now that you don't want to or don't know how to deal with? That's where you break the cycle.

When I have clients to do this I have them begin only with sharing feelings. Not asking for change - not expecting anything. Just sharing the feelings that are present in the moment and then changing the subject.

Once they can do that I have them move it forward by asking for input and for change in a cooperative manner.

I used to have people do this in one step. It was.... oooohhhh.... a little less than successful shall we say? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The first step has to be just speaking and hearing - and then moving to a differen topic. The atmosphere of blame, defensiveness, I'm-right-you're-wrong, needs to be calmed down.

So these are statements that are only about feelings and not about asking for change - that comes later.

Honey - I'm overwhelmed with the holiday stuff and I'm really frustrated with what's left to do. (Honesty statement) I'm going to have a cup of hot tea now - would you like some too? (change of subject)

I'm really annoyed when everyone leaves for the day and the dog is not fed. (Honesty statement) How was your meeting today? (change of subject)

I'm put out that the dishes are still on the dinner table. (Honesty statement) Is CSI on tonight or are there holiday specials instead? (change of subject)

Feel completely powerless? Great!! Then you're doing it right. You are being honest in the moment AND you are simply leaving it there without a demand, without disrespect and without losing your temper. You MUST be able to do this before you can begin to negotiate for change. Negotiation, in order for it to work cooperatively, needs a calm and cooperative space in which to begin and grow.

If your partner bites your head off and attempts to begin an argument about what you just said "God dam* it - you know I worked all day PLUS I cooked dinner while you sat and watched tv and now you're bit**ing about the dishes on the table? Unbelievable!" DO NOT ENGAGE. The only appropriate answer is "I'm not asking you to do anything, I just want you to know how I feel. So, how was your meeting?"

If s/he still tries to argue - even after you change the subject for the second time - just walk away. Creating the space for calm is the first step. If you do this consistently and you don't make your statements about the other person but about YOU and how you FEEL then eventually s/he will calm down and be less defensive.

See - being honesty and addressing what concerns you in the moment is not about a failing on the part of someone else. Saying that you are unhappy with an action or choice is not a reflection of the other person's value - it is only stating your internal reaction to what is going on in your life. Sure - their actions can make you feel badly - that doesn't make him or her bad people.

C

CSue, I feel the same way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2long & Cerri, I think I am beginning to see, and this is quite important I think, in the way I view and react to "lies". To me lies have always been cut and dry.

IE., You tell me you are going to do something, and then don't = LIE. You leave information out that concerns any aspect of my life or our realtionship, or my ability to make a decision = LIE.

Now you are saying that there are lies, and then there are LIES. Private vs Secret & Honesty vs Truthfulness.

When making "I statements" and trying to resolve a relationship problem, I can see that it is important to understand all this, and I am really giving it a lot of thought. Still trying to grasp it and I think for me it warrants a lot of exploring.

Although I think I am ready to let him go in my heart, I have to resolve the part I played in the failure of our relationship. I never called him a thief, (thank goodness, you didn't give me that idea when he was still here 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) "You're a LIAR" was usually the first words out of my mouth anytime we had an argument. And I can only imagine the ugly tone of voice which would have seethed from in between my clinched teeth. Yuck!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shul:

When we start to talk about anything that might hint of rejection from me, he literally stands at the door with his coat on...

It is like trying to befriend a dog that has been treated cruelly. He comes a little close, then runs off, comes back- I get too close and he runs off again.<hr /></blockquote>Soooo.... you stifle your honest feelings in order to protect your H.

Correct?

Protect him from what?

Here's what I suspect...His own feelings of inadequacy!

Not your job.

Pep

I have such a terrible problem with CONFLICT AVOIDANCE. It is like a thorn in my side. It's like my one last sin. I really, really struggle with this.... It has caused a major problem in my marriage. It still causes me to be dishonest. I will have to deal with this in order for my marriage to genuinely recover. This is an acknowledgement just like an alcoholic has to acknowledge a problem. I have even failed to read all of the replies on this topic because I have even wanted to avoid looking at the problem I have with this.

It has to do with my children. Part of the problem in my marriage has to do with me allowing the kids to disrespect my H. He felt devalued as a man and I would sabotage his participation in parenting in order to AVOID CONFLICT. I understand fully the basis of my problem, growing up with an alcoholic father, who emotionally abused me with his anger, not wanting my children to feel the pain I felt because of my father's uncontrolled rages, anything that looks like expressions of anger towards the children causes flashbacks/anxiety within me, therefore, I can 't stand for them to frustrated even in a healthy sense. This has created a mess. I believe it has crippled them. My marriage has recovered since the children have gone away to college but the problem swiftly returns when they come home. I'm sure it is a problem for the children in their lives because they do not handle frustration well at all and life is full of frustrations.

What can I do? I'm getting better but this is still a major problem.

My youngest son I think is well aware of my anxiety about conflict. He uses this to his advantage to get his way. He is getting better with recognition that I am changing. However, he continues to test the limits. A conflict may be brewing tonight which I have to LEARN TO EMBRACE/TOLERATE, right?

I hope some of you can help me with this.
PEP , the problem is curfew. On his last visit home from college, my son stayed out until 3AM, way past his given curfew of 1AM at the time. H wanted to sell his car since he did this two nights in a row. I made the old mistake of being vulnerable to my son's tearfulness... "how could you do this to me, etc." He promised to never do this again. Husband, who is now in love with me agaom, is himself again-out of the fog, went along with this. However, this is not necessarily good because this is our old pattern that got us into this fix in the first place.

Son comes home again for Thanksgiving. I give him a curfew of 12 last night. He comes home at 12:15. Notice I said I gave him a curfew. I was supposed to have discussed this with my H beforehand. I didn't. CONFLICT AVOIDANCE. Son fully expects to stay out until 1 AM tonight because the 12 curfew was because it was a work night for us. Him coming in wakes us up.

H wakes me up this morning and insists, old stuff, because of my CONFLICT AVOIDANCE he feels like he has to insist. He insists that my son have a curfew of 12 AM from now on. Well, that will cause A CONFLICT for a college-aged son who wants to spend time with his friends while at home. I KNOW. I KNOW. DON'T AVOID IT.

My, now loving husband who is more agreeable and more in line with the MB principles later comes to me and says by the time I am ready for work: WE WILL DISCUSS TOGETHER his curfew. H says this needs to be NEGOTIATED.

What is wrong with me? I don't even know what is appropriate to bring up in conversation with my H.
I want to give up on being a parent or just give in. I know, CONFLICT AVOIDANCE.

By the way, in the midst of me typing this post, my H came by to see me at my office. He brought me fruit as a gift, wanted me to walk him back out and kissed me as he left.

Can should I avoid conflict this evening or deal with it?? I know, I know......

Mimi...

Our son's last home visit, he ignored the midnight curfew and returned at 5 AM.

He is living in another state... by his choice. He did not pre-plan his budget, so he has no funds to travel back here. He asked for the $$ to fly home for the holidays... and we told him what our house rules would be.. and he told us how stupid and unreasonable our house rules are.

No $$ ... he can enjoy himself in the Utah snow.

And he is raging at us .."You never wanted me in the family"... "Why did you adopt me if you planned on abandoning me?"... you get the picture.

And as hard as it is for me... I am listening to my H... who says "NO WAY"... because we both know that bending the rules for him to disrespect us teaches him nothing about the real world.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> you stifle your honest feelings in order to protect your H.

Correct?
<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm. Sometimes. Yes. I try not to judge him. I try to focus on his strengths, and not on his weaknesses.

But thats not exactly what I meant. I guess in our case its not even about fear of conflict so much as fear of intimacy in general. Because letting himself be loved is allowing himself to be vulnerable. If he is attached, he risks being rejected, whereas if he doesn't get close to anyone, he won't get hurt.

So if he does get attached- almost by accident- as with me (ooops too late), then he is constantly hypervigilent - waitng for the shoe to drop; for me to reject him any minute when I find out what he is really like, or change my mind, or who knows what...

So as he sees it, in any conversation (much less disagreement), no matter how mundane the topic - as he sees it , I could suddenly stand up and say THATS IT I am out of here and walk out of his life forever.

The fact that I haven't done that in 19 years NO MATTER WHAT he has said or done, doesn't seem to compute.

He doesn't get that I am here for good- sickness/health, rich/ poor, nice guy or as*****.

See the mess we are in?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shul:

Because letting himself be loved is allowing himself to be vulnerable. If he is attached, he risks being rejected, whereas if he doesn't get close to anyone, he won't get hurt.

So if he does get attached- almost by accident- as with me (ooops too late), then he is constantly hypervigilent <hr /></blockquote>And... have you shared your feelings (with H) about this lack-of-intimacy-in-the-marriage situation? Have you told him how you feel about his hypervigilence?

Are you being honest with your H?

Pep

Cerri: <blockquote>quote:<hr />You break the cycle the same way you move a mountain with a tablespoon. One tiny little scoop (or step - or statement) at a time.
<hr /></blockquote>Ok. For us it is twofold. On the one hand I am trying to build a bridge to him, extending love, and he is slowly starting to cross it now, toward me.

So we are ready to start communicating from ground zero.

On the one hand we have all this stuff that he is hiding ( his safety net that is a trap in disquiseas I think of it) which I largely try to ignore when I am with him, but that gets in the way of communication somewhat. Its okay as long as I don't ask him anything about where he is or what he is doing and keep things here and now.

I figure in time , as we start to be able to relate and he learns to trust me, the old rotten supports will fall away.

He said to me "where do we start".

I don't know. We have some common ground- our daughter- so we focus on her when we are together mostly.

One teaspoon at a time is too slow, Cerri. Isn't there a way to speed things up?

I want to have it all out at once, like major surgery.

Pepperband,

I have tried. Part of him understands it, but he is still scared to risk it.

Over the past year he has kind of poked his head out and said something vulnerable once in a while, but I was too dense to catch it or know how to respond. For him I know that it was a huge risk, and I know it took alot of courage to do.

For all I am scared to talk for fear of rejction, for him it is infinitely harder. Crippling. And I know that. Its what I mean by walking on eggs. Not push him to get too close, but not reject him either, just sort of be available, hold out my hands offering food. Get bitten. Wait. Not pursue. If he takes the food, be still, don't react. etc.

My arms are tired.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shul:
just sort of be available, hold out my hands offering food. Get bitten. Wait. Not pursue. If he takes the food, be still, don't react.<hr /></blockquote>This is not descriptive of a relationship that nourishes you ...

Who feeds you?

Pep

God.

I am sorry for threadjacking.

Pep,

I have such a hard time expressing myself, and when we do talk, it often comes out wrong.

This happened the other night when he was here, now I want to fix it, but I don't know the words.

He was feeling pressured to stay the night, I guess.

I said that I feel disrespected when he comes here uses the shower, sex and leaves.

But thats not really true. I feel sad when he leaves, not disrespected- but sad because I want more closeness, and for us to talk and be open, and frustrated that he doesn't trust me.

But that is not what I said.

He responded by saying he will have to find some other place to shower. He said from now on if I want sex I have to ask. He was hurt.

Today he has gone to buy stuff to fix the well at the house, presumably so he will be able to shower there.

(S***. I like it when he showers here.)

So how do I tell him what I meant without making it worse?

Maybe he and I should only talk on paper, so I can think before I speak.

Share your avoidance issues ...
What stops you from taking action or speaking up?

Fear of being hit or yelled at. My pop use to hit me when I disagreed with anything and if he didnâ€™t hit me he would threaten to. To this day the biggest reason why I avoid any problems is because I am afraid I will be hurt.

What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?

People think I am easy going and I donâ€™t have any fights with people really.

What has conflict avoidance cost you?

True intimacy with my husband. I have done things that I was reluctant to do because I was afraid of saying no (again, flashbacks about being hit). I want to be liked but I think people just think I am a push over.

Funny, husband and I got into an argument this morning and I am still reeling over it. It was over a really small issue really but it has ruined my whole day because I am not use to speaking up. Itâ€™s a miserable feeling.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shul:
He responded by saying he will have to find some other place to shower. He said from now on if I want sex I have to ask. He was hurt.<hr /></blockquote>hmmmmmmm

How do you know he was "hurt"?

Did he say "That hurts me"....?

Pep

Mimi ...

Hey, I'm not used to this, you mean I get to dispense advice for a change?

Okay, first of all....â€It's like my one last sin.â€ If you conquer this one, youâ€™ve reached perfection? I seem to remember a couple of weeks ago another â€œfinal struggleâ€...oh, well â€“ my point is that I think every time we think weâ€™ve got one area conquered, itâ€™ll come back to haunt us. Be careful.

Okay, you and I both know that our pictures are in Websterâ€™s next to â€œConflict Avoidersâ€, so I understand. My W has always been much stronger willed than I, to the point of being belligerent and stubborn, so this has caused some (comparatively minor) issues for us in the past as well.

As you have obviously discussed this issue with Pep before, please let me ask you to look at Pepâ€™s post. Therein you will see the key, albeit maybe hidden. Pep uses the terms â€œweâ€, â€œusâ€, â€œourâ€. However, you even refer to the kids as â€œmyâ€ children, â€œmyâ€ marriage, etc. Mimi....paradigm shift for you, now. Youâ€™re Â½ of a team, nothing is â€œmyâ€, it is â€œourâ€. Pep understands that well.

You and H must, absolutely must, present a united front to your kids. It is tantamount that you are seen as â€œthe parentsâ€, not as Mom and Dad with 2 different sets of rules and ideals. Sure, you will disagree, but that must be transparent to your kids. If your H says something you donâ€™t agree with in front of the kids, sit there stoically until you are absolutely in private, and then battle it out if you must. You H should do the same for you, if he disagrees, your kids should never know it. We (W and I) avoided many battles by assuring that the other had not already issued the rule before discussing it with the boys. For example, if one of them went to W with a request that she thought I might had already addressed, she would simply say â€œWhat did your Dad say?â€. That was the end. If she thought me unfair, it would get discussed later. If we needed to revisit and change the rules, we would re-appear (both of us) and say â€œWE have discussed this, and WE think maybe WE were wrong...â€. etc.

What you have going for you is that your H is obviously not emotionally weak in this area the way you and I are. Put it on him, use that to your advantage. There is no need for you to face conflict with your kids over curfew, just tell them to see Dad. Period. Youâ€™re done.

I donâ€™t agree that this is an area where you have to learn to embrace conflict (my opinion, only). Defer the conflict to your other resource. I know (because Iâ€™ve â€œseenâ€ it) you can keep a stiff upper lip if you need to. Donâ€™t listen to Sâ€™s tears and ranting.....a simple â€œWhat did your father say?â€ will suffice.

But.....

You must respect your Hâ€™s authority to make those calls. You may not always agree which is the lesser issue. The larger issue is parental unity and PROPERLY AVOIDING CONFLICT.

Sounds like you and H need to work on that â€œinsistâ€ thing, but thatâ€™s another story.

So sorry to hear about your alcoholic father and the pain it caused you. Iâ€™ve not been there.

Georgia

[ November 24, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]

Sorry for the above threadjack...response to my friend Mimi.

[ November 24, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]

I have to give my 2 cents worth here! Sorry - feel free to ignore me if I am out of line.

Although I would agree with you, that you feel sad when he leaves, I think you also have every right to feel disrespected when he stops by, showers, has sex, and then leaves. That is disrespectful behavior!
I know you miss him - I know you like it when he stops by - but you deserve to be treated with respect - and this is not it.

I do not think you said anything wrong. I think you spoke the truth, and he knows it. He wants to throw it back at you "I am hurt, you will have to ask for sex from now on, I will find some place else to shower" but IMO he knew he was treating you in a disrespectful manner, and knew that eventually you would call him on it, and he is jsut disappointed that it happened all ready.
I think this is classic conflict avoidance. Something was bugging you, so you finally spoke up, and then he reacted badly so you would like to take it all back, make it go away, and do anything to make him happy again. Right now you are telling yourself that "I should have said it better, with more love, I should have given it different words, I should have served this all up on a silver platter dressed like a french maid, etc."
You have EVERY right to speak your mind. You felt disrespected - it is ok to say that. He didn't like hearing those words. That is ok too. But that doesn't mean you have to take them back now. One thing Dr Phil always says, that I absolutely agree with: You teach people how to treat you.
Over the years you have taught your H that you will do anything to keep peace in the family. You will not confront him, you will simply keep quiet, and if he does get upset, you will do everything you can to take it back.
Now you are tying to teach him a better way. You want him to treat you with repect. It will take him a while to get used to it. It is different, but that is ok. It is better. Different is not always bad.

If I am out of line here, I hope Pep will come to the rescue. But I can see you trying to smooth things over at any possible cost, and I had to speak up for you (I recognize all the signs - I did this myself!!).
You are a child of God. You have value, and worth. You deserve to be treated with respect. God wants you to be loved, and cherished. Allowing your H to shower, have sex, and then leave is not treating you with respect. God wants better than that for you.

By the way - my above lecture was intended for Shul.

I know it looks like disrespect, smells like disrespect, tastes like disrespect, but that really isn't how I feel. I think it is in the eye of the beholder.

To be honest I have had so many people talk about boundaries that I think I was trying it on. It is only disrespectful if I need his respect in this way.

When he is here it is about giving, for me.

I feel frustrated that he isn't able to reciprocate by opening up to me, but only because he would find out that I am not going to hurt him and that it is safe to be himself with me.

I know my value. I am giving from a position of strength and self respect, if you will. My selfesteem isn't based on his treatment of me.

I don't know how to explain this.

ps: you are not out of line.
I need all the help and insight I can get here.

Pep, I guess he was hurt because he called and apologised the next morning for being 'an a******'.

I've been avoiding this thread - don't like conflict. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There were two lines for men at the entrance to the Pearly Gates. One line was labeled, "Hen Pecked Husbands." The other, "Non-Hen Pecked Husbands." Hundreds lined up on the Hen Pecked side. Only one guy was in the Non-Hen Pecked line.

"Hey Pal!," someone yelled to the one guy, "whatcha doing in THAT line?"

"My wife told me to stand here."

WAT

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shul:

Pep, I guess he was hurt because he called and apologised the next morning for being 'an a******'. <hr /></blockquote>I don't think he was "hurt"... I think your interpretation of his feelings speaks more of where you are coming from.

Was he irritated? Was he annoyed? Was he bored? Was he angry? Was he embarrassed?

See.... many more possibilities...

Why do you assume it is hurt?

Pep

Shul,

I have been reading your post since March I think. So many times I wanted to reach through this computer and throttle you. But reading here today, I have seen what a hell of a lady you really are. Now the only person I want to throttle is your husband (he has moved out of OW's house and is no longer involved with her, right).

I am starting to see things through your eyes a little bit more, I think. Like you, my strength has always come from GOD, except in my dark years when I forgot Him. To me God is my father, and my dad was my earthly dad.

I can't give any insight on boundaries and gaining respect from others, because those are skills I am too just learning.

My question to you, is your husband in IC of any type trying to work on his issues? Or are you shouldering the burden of his personal recovery on your shoulders alone? Has he expressed any willingness to work on his intimacy/trust issues yet? Or is part of your plan that he will get to that in time? Change yourself first, is that your plan?

Just curious, and also happy to see the progress you have made in this uphill climb so far.

Pep, no matter what it was disguised as I think at bottom it is fear of being hurt.

Weaver,

He has moved to the house, but he is still in contact with ow, and I was just now having a bad moment trying not to think about where he might be right now.

He has been in counseling for most of his childhood and several times since then.

He has been labeled as various disorders by the shrinks who could seem to agree and didn't much care. Their agenda was mainly to fix him so that he wouldn't stress out his adoptive parents.

The ones since then, who have heard his story have gotten this deercaughtintheheadlightsthisiswayovermyhead look.

Part of his problem was made worse by being forced to participate in an experimental psych program when he was in youth custody, (which has since been scrapped when most of the participants committed suicide or went to jail for murder.He is the only one left who is alive and not in jail for life according to one of the former guards.)

So he has had a bellyfull of IC.

The church we we turned to...the minister told me that he was a waste of time and I should divorce him. (Said minister being an adulterer who abandoned his wife, knocked up one of his previous flock, and married another one.) They shunned him. While I was asking for prayer for him al those years, it turned out they were all praying that I would leave him. They called each other with the good news when they heard that he left. They all think I should find a nice rich churchgoing man.

No balm in Gilead.

I am doing my best. 4 years in seminary, countless books, seeking God for 19 years for guidance and insight.
I mostly just cry out to God to heal him.

One day it will be worth it to see him whole.

My sorrow and regret is that it has been hard on our D's.

I think I should not thread jack here anymore. I apologise to everyone.

This is a great thread. I am currently separated from my CA husband. My question is, when you are dating and all over each other, having fun together and generally trying to please each other...how do you recognize a CA?

Does this make any sense? In the dating stage it seems that conflict is minimal and both parties are trying to make the relationship satisfactory for the other.

Surely I should have known my H. was a CA before I married him but I missed something. Are there red flags that are easily recognized?

To everyone who put themselves out here on this thread, thank you for your insight. I have learned so much.

Cerri

I can't find that piece you wrote about CA!! Somewhere on my hard drive! If someone else has it and can paste it here - it really helped me come out of the "CA Closet". I think awareness of being a CA helps in controlling it.

Which brings me to a confession. I think one reason I CA is because of the illusion of control. I pick and choose the conflict, the time, etc. Unfortunately I would also gunnysack all the conflict I avoided, then used it to justify "reacting" when I felt I was ready to attack.

Which fed the illusion that I wasn't a CA afterall - because I would slay those who I had been CAing with!

Fortunately, I don't allow myself to get away with this behavior anymore.

I know it looks like disrespect, smells like disrespect, tastes like disrespect, but that really isn't how I feel. I think it is in the eye of the beholder.

SHUL!!!!
Please read this again. Honey - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck, and it doesn't matter who is beholding it!!!
Would you please run to the nearest bookstore and buy "Women Who Love Too Much?". If you can't find it let me know and I will gladly mail you my copy. I am not saying that the book will cure all that ails you, but at least it may help you see some of the typical patterns followed by Women Who Love Too Much, and continue to hope that they can fix past hurts by fixing the man who is in their life right now.
Please, over the next few days, would you give thought to the possiblity that you truly are being treated with disrespect, that you are truly allowing this man to be unkind to one of Gods own children?
Please look at the bigger picture. Right now it would be easy to say "for today, I want to feel better. I want to fix what is wrong right now. so I will tell him that I didn't mean to accuse him of being disrespectful. I will tell him that it is MY issue, MY problem. That I don't communicate well, and I am trying to fix it. That I know HE is hurting, and I only meant to tell him that I am sad when he leaves.
And what is that supposed to accomplish? Will it take you back to the former situation - shower,sex,leave? Probably. Is that really an acceptable life? for ever? For today, maybe. But forever?
Look at the bigger pictue. What do YOU want? A loving husband, who has a desire to spend time with you? Who talks to you, listens to you, showers, and stays? You aren't going to get it by maintaining the current status quo.
If you continue to do what you have always done, you wll continue to get the same resluts.

Shul - God loves you. You have value. He wants so much more for you. This is all true. Please, listen to that.

If your dauther, or your best friend, were telling you a similar story- of how they were willing to tolerate small amounts of time with their husband, thinking it was better than nothing at all, what would you say to them?

I probably won't be on the computer again until Monday, but I will lift you up in prayer. I feel, in my heart, that you are at a crossroads. Take some time to be still and know that he is God. And know that he wants so much more for you than what you are currently getting.

P.S.
Shul-
Just in case you are sitting there telling your self "thats easy for her to say - she clearly has her act together. she is confident in herself - I am not."
Let me assure you that the reason I can read your mind is becuase I have walked your walk.
When my H left I told everyone who would listen "It is all my fault, I should have known he was unhappy, I should have sensed it, I was too fat, too boring, I should have showered him with attention more."
People would look at me like my hair was on fire and say "you cooked every day, cleaned up after him, told him you loved him everyday, you were faithful, and kind. You had sex on a regular basis, you watched football when he wanted to, and you were always faithful. You are a size 8, and you are well travelled. You are not fat or boring, or mean spiritied in any way. And yet, you are telling me that his affair is your fault? Are you nuts? And my response was "you don't understand, I was not the perfect wife, I could have been better, should have been better. If only I had been a better wife the boys would still have their dad. You don't know what a bad wife I was because it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Does any of that sound familiar?

WoF,

I am not blaming myself for his sins.

I am not excusing them or denying them.

And of course I know that his treatment of me is not how God wants his children to be treated. No more than he wanted to see his own Son mistreated and abused.
(Neither does he want a child to be mistreated in the way that my husband was).

But love by its nature requires sacrifice. It is what we are all learning here- to respond to hatred with love. Forgiveness for example, means bearing the debt ourselves. Sacrifice.

I choose to respond in the way that I do, in obedience to Jesus' instructions to bless those who curse me, to pray for those who despitefully use me, etc.

The object is not judgement and condemnation, but redemption.

We are called to love, and to leave the judgeing to God.

And giving pleasure to my husband is a sacrifice of love that I freely give.

(Except where there is a risk of bringing a child into a relationship where there is not committment, which is not love).

Shul

Shul,

While I understand what you are saying..I really get the feeling that a lot of this is Shuls desires costumed in Gods desires.

Reason? You are not following the directive to first rebuke..then turn away from [while praying for] someone who is actively sinning.

Allowing your H to use you for sex or ..heck, to use you at all is not doing him any favors..and may well be getting in Gods way. Maybe God would like him to experience some consequences..it truly is the best motivator of change there is. As it is..you are helping him carry on a life that is lost. You are giving him just enough rope to hang himself with, and you are doing it because you..SHUL..do not want to let go.

Have you given any consideration to this possibility?

Noodle

Csue - is this the one you mean? I pulled it off my blog **edit**.

C

Musing on Marriage ~ Whatever It Takes
Â© **edit**

Wherever people gather to discuss marriages in crisis there is a plaintive refrain heard over and over again. Spoken sometimes with force and determination, sometimes in whispers of dying hope, and sometimes, many times, in fear and pain and sadness, â€œIâ€™ll do whatever it takes to save my marriage.â€

Itâ€™s quite easy to say and infinitely more difficult to carry out. What most people mean when they say theyâ€™ll do, â€œwhatever it takes,â€ is that theyâ€™ll do whatever is within range of their comfort zone of familiar and safe. Ask them to step out of that zone into a place of counter intuitive actions and the refrain quickly changes from â€œwhatever it takes,â€ to â€œI canâ€™t.â€

I understand the fear of moving out of the familiar. Itâ€™s challenging even in neutral or joyful situations. But when the situation facing us is one of destruction and loss we cling to the familiar like a life preserver. Only we canâ€™t see that the life preserver has a slow leak and rather than being a tool of preservation will eventually sink us. We need to let go of the familiar but ineffective and reach for the unknown if we are to be successful at the business of saving a marriage.

I wrote about this recently in a public forum and someone asked me what I consider â€œwhatever it takesâ€ looks like. It was a welcome invitation to put together my thoughts on a subject near and dear to my heart. This is what I believe about being able to say one has done everything possible.

I expect that people will first and foremost stop the destructive things they are doing. If they have anger or addiction issues or if they are in love with their own independent behaviors they need to stop. Get help if necessary. If their spouse had identified that they have anger and control problems they need to believe what they hear and get help.

No matter what someone else does, losing one's temper, being judgmental, opinionated, or disrespectful is never ok. And, most people can't see when they are perpetrating those acts. There's a whole lot of entitlement that goes on - in a negative way.

I've had several clients that just couldn't get past this and who ended up being the force that destroyed the marriage - not the fact that their spouse had an affair or worked too much or was neglectful - it was the angry, entitlement, opinionated, judgmental attitude that made healing impossible.

At the same time, doing â€œwhatever it takesâ€ means learning to be honest in a way that is calm, courteous, and respectful. Not just honest about where they are and what they're doing, but honest about HOW THEY FEEL about the conditions of their lives.

Now, when I tell people this, they insist that they are/were honest and it didn't make a difference. But when I question them on their â€œhonestyâ€ what they say is, "I AM honest. I told him he was a lazy slob for sitting there in the chair watching football while I helped the kids with their homework and cleaned the kitchen. And if he didn't get his act together pretty soon I was just going to have to find a way to get my needs met without him."

Uhh. Yeah. That's not honesty. That's being rude. Honesty is all about you and only about you. And it's really not about what you think. I don't give a hoot if you ever tell your spouse what you think â€“ honesty is about what you feel. Using words that describe emotions. Things like happy, sad, angry, frustrated.

I had a young couple insist that saying "I feel like you're being really stupid," was a feeling statement. It's not. It's an opinion. When I start working with people I make opinions about anything even closely related to their personal lives off limits. You can read a more in depth version of my Honesty Assignment **edit** . I expect people to be highly skilled at being able to do this.

When they can do that (and yes, one person can effect significant change by taking these two steps) then I want them to seriously hone their negotiating skills. Just being honest doesn't effect change all that much. So we add to that a request for change. This is the ability to move from the calm and courteous atmosphere you've created by your non demanding, non judgmental, honesty to asking for something different. Being honest is the first step in moving away from the point of view that your spouse is somehow doing something "wrong," towards the concept that s/he is involved in or doing something that is coming between you and hurting the marriage. Removing the judgment. Asking for change is the proactive next step that explicitly states that concept.

AND THEN - along with all that I'd like to see an understanding of the biochemistry of the different phases of the mating drive and how they pertain to where the couple is in their marriage. With that information you can focus on what needs to meet. If your spouse is having an affair, trying to meet the needs that fill romantic love receptors is going to be a futile pursuit. But there might be quite a bit of benefit to meeting attachment needs.

AND (yes there's more) deep personal changes need to occur as well. If you've been part of the epidemic of conflict avoidance you need to change that. The honesty assignment addresses it in part but when there is infidelity or other addiction then there are interventions that need to be made. There is a huge difference between protecting the marriage from the outside influence of a destructive situation and being afraid to upset your partner by making waves. One is crucial and the other is simply a way to stay in your own comfort zone and hide behind the idea of being nice.

I would expect someone to do these things when there is neglect, abuse, or infidelity. Long term for neglect - at LEAST two years of skilled application. Short term for infidelity - that's more of a case by case timing but I lean towards shorter is better. Rock the affair boat hard and then be in a strong and protected Protection Phase. There are biochemical reasons for that that which you can learn more about by reading Helen Fisherâ€™s Why We Love.

In cases of control and abuse I would want to see firm boundaries set and maintained about the types of behavior that is acceptable. That might be as benign as walking away and refusing to engage in an argument (it really does take two to argue â€“ engaging rewards the behavior). Or, maintaining boundaries might be as difficult and complex as calling the police and initiating a restraining order against someone.

That's the very minimum of what I would expect in terms of doing â€œwhatever it takes.â€

If you do those things within those time lines and your spouse still refuses to change (not the same as making change slowly) then I want you in Protection Phase with absolutely no contact for a minimum of 12 months. THEN we can talk about whether or not you've done everything possible.

Are you doing â€œwhatever it takesâ€ or are you stuck in the familiar comfort zone that doesnâ€™t allow for making waves?

P

Noodle,

If that is true, then given all the people who rebuked him and turned away from him in the past you would expect that by now he would have repented.

But all it did was make him feel more rejected and more alone, and more distrustful of God adn people.

One of the consequences in this case is that he increasingly misses me and our daughter, and our life together.

And he sees that it was his own actions that caused us to be apart. He is his own worst enemy.

He is seeing that the exchange was not worth it- his freedom for his family.

If I am wrong, God will show me what to do . I have sought him on this many times, Noodle. I need to get this right.

If he tells me to give him up, shun him, I will. I trust God to know what is best. And this is about His agenda, not mine.

I have just talked to him on the phone.

I told him how I really feel- that mostly I am sad and frustrated that we aren't closer, and that I wish he could trust me more. He replied he is more open to me than anyone else.

I used lots of 'I' messages. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I told him also how great he was with our D last night, how he made her feel loved.

Where the conversation ended up was with him telling me a beautiful analogy to use for my sermon tomorrow.

Bizzare, huh?

Shul

Christ died for us while we were yet sinners .

spitting in the wind

[ November 25, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]

pearls before swine

flogging a dead horse

I guess my problem with that argument is that
God reached out for me while I was lost, full of sin and self. Jesus went so far as to seek me out and die for me while I was filthy with sin, and the world had turned on me. I have been forgiven much. I am not in a position to cast stones.

We are to show the same measure of mercy that we have received.

Dear Shul,

it's a fine line between sacrifice and denial.
What will your H learn from you letting him use you at his convenience?
Will he not learn to hate himself more for taking advantage of you that way? For using you, then dumping you again and again? What sort of man does that?

If you want to be friendly towards him.. show him you love.. great. But agreeing to sex? Why? Just because he wants to?

Then why did Jesus chase those people from the temple? Why didn't he just say "hey, if that's what they need to do, I'm just going to love them and let them go ahead with it?"

Loving someone does NOT mean letting them get away with everything. That would grow a monster. IMHO, you need to set your boundaries. Even if you'll miss the intimacy yourself.

Another thing dear Shul..

You said: "The fact that I haven't done that (rejected him) in 19 years NO MATTER WHAT he has said or done, doesn't seem to compute."

I very much respect your efforts to help heal your H. But isn't it possible your actions have conflict avoidance written all over them? That it's not so much your love for your H, but your own fear of being rejected makes you agree to everything, while you don't feel too good about it afterwards?

I was like that. But setting your boundaries doesn't mean rejecting a person. Unless you think that you have to agree to everything to appease them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CSue:

I think one reason I CA is because of the illusion of control. I pick and choose the conflict, the time, etc. Unfortunately I would also gunnysack all the conflict I avoided, then used it to justify "reacting" when I felt I was ready to attack. <hr /></blockquote>Really excellent insight into your own inner working.... keep going with this vein.... you're onto something real about yourself.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by brownhair:
 Another thing dear Shul..

You said: "The fact that I haven't done that (rejected him) in 19 years NO MATTER WHAT he has said or done, doesn't seem to compute."

I very much respect your efforts to help heal your H. But isn't it possible your actions have conflict avoidance written all over them? That it's not so much your love for your H, but your own fear of being rejected makes you agree to everything, while you don't feel too good about it afterwards?

I was like that. But setting your boundaries doesn't mean rejecting a person. Unless you think that you have to agree to everything to appease them. <hr /></blockquote>Shul... are you willing to change yourself to improve your quality of life... or are you going to continue to fixate on efforts to improve your H?

This is an act of pridefulness, you know, you think you have the right stuff, so you are going to"fix" what only God's Grace can fix... your H's problems are not yours, they belong to God and your H. Hands off.

You are not his Mommie, you are his partner. Trying to "fix" or "work on" you H's changes is HIGHLY disrespectful.

Your H has hurt. Much of it self-inflicted. Your actions are not deliberately hurtful toward your H ... and your H's actions are not deliberately hurtful toward you . You are both caught in a crucible where neither one of you will choose to make the SELF-CHANGES that breaks the crucible.

YOU do NOT have the power to fix him Shul. Your H will not be motivated to fix what is wrong with him until HE OWNS the problem. Your H will not own his problem as long as YOU own it for him.

YOU need to concentrate and work on YOUR OWN issues... I think that is what the years of failed attempts to fix your husband is saying.... God is calling you out on this.... You are focused outward.... when inward changes are being called for.

God may not be calling you for more patience... but for more decisive action and brave integrity for doing what you know is right.

Pep

[ November 25, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Cerri,

No, that wasn't it...This is really starting to bugggg! It was so well done. I think it was in a thread on SYMC..I've looked way back - but don't remember the thread title. I'll keep looking though.

I like the "doing whatever it takes". I feel so blessed that no only did my husband say it - he meant it and did it.

Pep, thanks for your support. You're right I feel like I'm on to a good thing with this CA stuff. This thread has been very helpful to airing it out. CA doesn't do well in the light of day!

It is in the little stuff..Caught myself CAing yesterday in fact. Seems to be in my case a reluctance to tell someone how I'm feeling, especially if it's an uncomfortable feeling...it has to do with staying comfortable being vulnerable which FEELS counter-intuitive. It is uncomfortable (doesn't feel safe) to be vulnerable in most cases.

One more comment/question about conflict avoidance:

It seems to me that there are a few different steps involved in being honest, forthright and direct about your feelings ie doing the opposite of CA (actually I am not sure, but I think CA is more common in most relationships than its healthy alternative)

they are

1) be willing to take a look at yourself and acknowledge your feeling at the time you're feeling it

2) be able to accurately describe it

3) have the courage to tell your S about it without attaching blame/anger/ridicule etc

THEN you need to have a S who can hear you state your feeling without taking it as blame/that they are automatically responsible etc.
On the other hand, if you have told your S your feeling, why you are feeling that way, and an action of your S is the reason you are feeling that way, you still need to have a S who cares enough to change.
It seems to me there is also a group of people (probably we're all guilty at some time or another) who are 'responsibility deniers' ie who ignore their S's feelings and requests for change even when they are stated in a perfect forthright and honest way, without judgement/blame etc. I guess its no guarantee, but then CA is definitely not going to change anything.

Am I missing something along the way?

Dear Pep and Brownhair,

I appreciate your insights, and I want you to know that I am listening.

I know very well that it is not me who is responsible for fixing him. It is God. But we are to be instruments of Gods love, of his peace.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What will your H learn from you letting him use you at his convenience?
<hr /></blockquote>How does us being intimate constitute him 'using me'? He has not insisted on anything. He has expressed a desire to be with me and I chose to respond. He has asked my permission every time. I am not compelled. I am attracted to him as I have always been. (Actually, it was the ow he was using). As far as I am concerned, his infidelity doesn't change my love for him. If he is conflicted, that is his problem- he owns it.

I don't use sex as a tool for manipulation.

This was never about him not wanting me, or not caring for me.It was not about me. It was about him and his search for something that can only be found in relationship with God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...why did Jesus chase those people from the temple? Why didn't he just say "hey, if that's what they need to do, I'm just going to love them and let them go ahead with it?"..
<hr /></blockquote>This is comparing apples with oranges.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Loving someone does NOT mean letting them get away with everything.
<hr /></blockquote>I am not his parent. He is free to do as he pleases, just as I am. I don't wish to control him.

But lets look at this. What has he 'gotten away' with?
An example might be Israel. God told them that if they trusted him and obeyed his rules, they would be blessed. And they were. God delighted in blessing them.
But they, like us, thought the grass looked greener on the other side and they went away from God. They chose to ignore the rules he has given them for their own good, and they might have had a good time at first, but they suffered harm in the long run as a result. When things started to go wrong they turned to idols, and they could dance around idols all day, but nothing would happen . They eventually found themselves in deep trouble.
It was not that God was punishing them-God was not responsible for their suffering. It came about as a result of departing from him. He was offering them good things, but they were not able to receive them. They only had peace and success when they remained in his care, and obeyed his instructions.

God held out his hands all day to a rebellious people, the Bible says. Their suffering was a natural consequence of being away from him.

In the same way, my husband departed from me, and as a result he is missing out on the thing he wants more than anything-a family to love and be loved by. More importantly he is outside of Gods will, and he has suffered because of it. The god of this world cannot satisfy him. He is finding that out. Just like Israel when they worshipped idols.
Jesus didn't tell us to withhold love- we are commanded to love one another.
If my husband comes to me I show him love. If he doesn't, he misses out. I am offering my love, but he is only able to receive it in a limited way- because of his own choices.

He is gradually coming to see that his choices have caused grief to him and to us. He has no peace.
I am here with open arms. My love is a constant. If he chooses not to be with me, it is his choice and his loss.

Whatever the reason, he is increasingly choosing to spend more time with us, and very little time with ow.

He is showing the fruit of repentance by spending time with his D, and in other ways.

For most of our marriage we were a house divided, and I won't go back to that. There is no point.

Having my husband back is not my first agenda- it is to see him reconciled to God.

That is why I have not pursued him.
I have not turned him away, but I am not always available now when he might want me. I work and do other things. God has first place in my life; my first commitment is to him.

I pray for a time when we will be partners, committed to serving God together, both on the same page, as it were.

Shul

CSue -- you want Musing on Marriage - Marital Cancer, which Cerri posted on the Yahoo group on August 23. Took me a while to find it, too. I thought it was more recent than that.

Since I'm not Cerri, I'm not going to post it here, but you can find it at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-Your-Marriage-Central/message/740

(You have to be a member of the group to access it, but you can join for free and without giving your e-mail address.)

Shul..

I want to congratulate you on a beautifully written, well thought out post.

However, what you consider "intimacy" I would consider "a fix".

By allowing him to come and go without suffering loss you are giving him your implicit appoval for his mistreatment of you and your child together.

We must consider two things.

1) You are not God. God however has given you very specific directions per dealing with someone who has fallen away. You didn't like the timeframe or the results and so rejected this. Very tricky. Good luck with your approach, because...

2) He wants both. Unless you force a choice he won't make one. Are you afraid that he won't choose you? It sounds like you are. It sounds like fear cloaked in piety. Denial is a very deep river that conjoins sacrifice..sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

I can't answer definatively in your stead..but I can tell you that from here..way over on the banks of no vested interest..it looks like you have wandered into the former not seeing the posted signs and disregarding the villagers who are jumping up and down and gesturing emphatically.

It is possible that the villagers are wrong..despite the fact that this is their native habitat..but it is also possible that you have rejected the very directive required to regain the minimum standard of acceptable conduct..something that we all wither for lack of.

It's worth thinking about. None of the tactics that you employ have been consistently, measurably successfull. Not for you, not for anyone if the Harley method is not to be discredited..as your method is in outright conflict with what they espouse. Plan A and B are likely a better choice.

Noodle

I didn't think I'd ever post again, but this thread caught my eye. I'm beginning to really understand how much of a conflict avoider I am.

What keeps me from taking action or speaking up?:

Well, fear of rejection for sure. But it's more a fear of humiliation with me. My father would treat my ideas/opinions with contempt. To this day I am unable to clearly articulate what I think or feel.

In addition though, I've noticed that I avoid conflict because of the feelings stirred up in my for the other person(s). This is so strange to me. I view the person I'm in conflict with as the enemy. I have an almost impossible time feeling any good thoughts about him or her. It takes a long time to get over it. Then, I don't know how to protect myself in case it happens again. Yuck.

What benefits do I think I get by avoidance?:

Control No humiliation. No hatred.
('Course that doesn't really happen. Like I heard on Dr. Phil, I've created that which I fear the most. I lose control, and feel both humilation and hatred whenever I CA. You'd THINK I'd stop doing it. LOL)

What has CA cost you?:

A close relationship with my husband. Friends. I'm scared to have friends because I inevitably do something that upsets them, or I don't agree with them, or something. Then I don't continue the friendship, or I continue a friendship I shouldn't because I don't believe I am allowed to set boundaries - or if I do set them, that they are too harsh.

Wow. Kinda scarey.

Thanks Pep for asking the question.

Seeking

Bless you Just J,

I would never have found it...

I'll print and keep a copy. It's this musings of Penny that will help me hold myself accountable.
Thanks, CSue

Conflict Avoidance, hunh?...I think I prefer the term dishonesty. Please forgive me if I repeat, the thread is long and I don't have a printer.

I was severely abused as a child and couldn't deal with it until my 20's. I didn't WANT to I HAD to to keep my sanity. I let people walk all over me. I tried to please everyone all the time to avoid being hurt. It didn't work. I became depressed. I didn't care if I lived or died. I finally got help. I had to learn to really love myself first, it sounds cliche, I know. Like Pepperband, I no longer care what people think of me or whether or not they like me, because I am secure with who I am. I like me. I don't mind being wrong or being called to the carpet, because even if I make a mistake...I still like me. I wouldn't even change the abuse I suffered because if I change my past, I change ME. I like me too much for that.

My fwh...big conflict avoider. Alcoholic, success driven, over critical (even to this day) parents!!! He wants their approval!!! Drives me nuts. I can't talk to him, if I want to POJA something he takes it as criticism. It takes me literally weeks to formulate a way to tell him something without setting off his defenses, which makes all communication pointless. He procrastinates the most daunting of tasks because of his fear of failure ie: legal paperwork, money dealings. Most of this has a time limit and we suffer financially or legally because of it and I'm left finding a way to get us out of the mess. I have this task alone because he's busy sulkiing in his guilt for not taking action!...avoiding more conflict!

How in the world do I get through to my H that I love him unconditionally. I can do that because I love myself that way. I will support him ALWAYS, even when I don't agree with him because I don't want to change him or improve him. I just want him to be able to share himself with me and stand up for himself with pride. I want him to have the ability to meet life's challenges without fear, so he can feel good about himself. I want him to be able to love me unconditionally so I have the freedom to just be ME.

HappyMom-

I hope you come back to this thread since I have a question for you.

How did you learn to love yourself? I was abused as a child - not severely - but it's still affected me badly.

I attempted to start an affair to deal with my unhappiness with myself, but thankfully got derailed. However, I am having problems again which has lead to more dreaming of affair(s).

I'm wondering if it has to do with how much I dislike myself. I think I avoid conflict with myself. Make sense?

Anyway, I've been through years and years and years of therapy but have not reached the state you have. I certainly would like to.

Thanks,
Seeking

Seeking More,

I am not happymom, but I can tell you how I learned love, and to love myself. It was through my DD. When she was first born it was through holding her and caring for her. When she became a little older it was through interaction with her. I loved her, cherished her, played with her and something happened. She loved me back. Something about healing the broken child in me by becoming a loving mother. Now she is ten and it is through our friendship and with the other little girls that come to my house. Now I get to play and interact with them as a loving friend and heal the scared little girl I was when I was their age.

My parents were not abusive but they were addicts so not fully "there" .

Do you have children? If not you might be able to volenteer at your local hospital as a baby holder in the pediatric word. Or at a church they usually need someone to take care of the babies during church.

Anyway, wanted to share what helped me. And I too hope happymom comes back and shares her healing story with us.

[ November 28, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]

I have been a conflict avoider, I guess I still am. It seems since my whole saga began (as a result of my conflict avoidance in some sort of way) I have been less of such. My WW and I seem to "duke it out" more now than we ever did before, so maybe in a crazy sort of way this is good for me?

Who knows.

MIF?

bump for C

I got a lot of this thread too! Thanks Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seeking, now I hope you come back to this thread.

Your first post on here could have been written word for word my Mrs. E so it really caught my attention. Then when I read your 2nd post it really freaked me out. Could you elaborate on your "problems" and your thoughts now about an A?

Mrs. E and I are trying to A proof our M and you sound so similar to her it might give me/us some insite.

bump... Seeking are you out there?

There is lots to absorb here! UGH - hubby and I had a horrible fight last night, thank goodness it was in front of our marriage counselor.

She should be a football ref!

How does one learn to argue? I have never learned and I find it extremely difficult to speak up.

I have to finish reading this thread before I ask questions I think!

How does one learn to argue?

I've had to forget how to argue, and learn how to discuss.

I see your point Bob - but then how does one learn to discuss without getting into an arguement. I let my emotions get the best of me and I absolutely hate that!

chackler, I think the idea is to not argue but to attempt a peacful resoulution. Now if I can just convince Mrs. E of this. Conflict resoulution is not her strong suit. I always used to tell her that she only knew how to get mad or give in but we're working on that.

Conflict=growth

<blockquote>quote:<hr />chackler, I think the idea is to not argue but to attempt a peacful resoulution. Now if I can just convince Mrs. E of this. Conflict resoulution is not her strong suit. I always used to tell her that she only knew how to get mad or give in but we're working on that.

Conflict=growth
<hr /></blockquote>I think the problem with me is that I avoid anything that merely resembles conflict. It's torture for me to even bring up little things, which soon grow into BIG things, because I didn't say anything in the first place.

I know that my abuse as a child has a lot to do with it. I am wondering if that is common with conflict avoiders.

How does one get the courage to speak up when something isn't right? How does one get the guts to believe they have a valid point in the first place? I often feel as if what I have to say isn't important, isn't really worth it to begin with, so I hold it in.

Am I even making sense?

I know that conflict = growth but to me conflict = a slap in the face, though I know that won't happen.

I haven't followed this thread until now. Only read the last 2 pages, but it seems to fit for me in my present place. At this point in my life I am the apposite of a CA. Before the A I thought H and I had both learned that it is better to deal with conflict when it comes up rather than avoid it, thus making it so much more of a bigger deal. Of course the A blew everything we learned right out of the water.

After the A for months I think we were able to talk pretty well, in spite of the horrendous pain. Now I see H reverting back to that CA mode. I hate it!

Chackler, I can tell you that my H was abused as a kid and it definitely has fostered CA in him. What he perceives as an attack, for me can be a disagreement. Sometimes not even a disagreement. It might be a difficult conversation. He will forsake intimacy in order to avoid conflict. Unfortunately for me it might end up being the death of our recovery. The A was the fantasy of a R without conflict. Everything was so easy. H says he is over that fantasy. I think he is over OW, but still has that lingering feeling that if our M has conflict it must not be right. I, on the other hand, believe any couple will experience conflict. Especially us unfortunate ones who are dealing with the aftermath of an A. To think there won't be any sort of conflict is ludicrous. It's how the Ss deal with it that is the important thing. IMHO! CV

Hi CV--

You brought up some interesting points...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Chackler, I can tell you that my H was abused as a kid and it definitely has fostered CA in him. What he perceives as an attack, for me can be a disagreement. Sometimes not even a disagreement. It might be a difficult conversation. He will forsake intimacy in order to avoid conflict. <hr /></blockquote>I take it that by intimacy you mean verbal communication. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have to admit that I am the same way. Unfortunately I have a fear that something bad will happen to me. It's not on a conscious level but more sub-conscious. It's funny though because now I am noticing when I am avoiding situations that might be difficult, where as before I wouldn't even know I was avoiding them. My counselor says that's a good thing, but I don't feel it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Unfortunately for me it might end up being the death of our recovery. <hr /></blockquote>Our marriage counselor told me last night that if I avoid these situations it will be the death of our marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think he is over OW, but still has that lingering feeling that if our M has conflict it must not be right. <hr /></blockquote>I can totally relate to this. Though I have to say I am getting better on not dwelling on OM when hubby and I argue. I'm trying very hard not to go down that road anymore. It is getting easier but it was a struggle for quite a few months after d-day. I had a fantasy that OM and I would never argue - I created this perfect world inside my head. Again, I can totally relate to your hubby on this one, but I'm learning that it's a horribly unhealthy thought process.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />, on the other hand, believe any couple will experience conflict. Especially us unfortunate ones who are dealing with the aftermath of an A. To think there won't be any sort of conflict is ludicrous. It's how the Ss deal with it that is the important thing. IMHO! <hr /></blockquote>Yes, you are right about every couple experiences conflict. When you grow up in an unhealthy environment though it's hard to really feel that. My head knows that every couple butt's heads now and then but my heart still feels fear. I wish I saw my family deal with conflict in a good way, then maybe I wouldn't be so afraid.

I'm learning though - it's just a tough road.

Sorry if my grammar is off - I'm way past my bed time!

Chackler

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> How does one get the courage to speak up when something isn't right? How does one get the guts to believe they have a valid point in the first place? I often feel as if what I have to say isn't important, isn't really worth it to begin with, so I hold it in.
<hr /></blockquote>You sound like my H.
I remember having fights very early in our marriage. I remember he says he can't fight with me because "You will always be right, I can never win." And that led to what I call the turtle-syndrome. Hiding when things are bad and only taking the good times. I find myself carrying the burden of the relationship and we drifted apart when he was having his A.

I can only speak for myself and my relationship: when we fight, I do need to hear what my H has to say. I need to know his thoughts and feelings. I don't want to be talking to a stonewall. And yes, I admit that when we fought, I needed to "win". This came from my childhood sibling rivalry! I don't need to 'win' anymore now, I need to be heard. I need my H to acknowledge my hurt feelings or anger and end the fight with a resolution. And I need to have a 'make-up' session. I hate going on pretending nothing's happened and everything's alright. I need to feel that I am still loved despite having problems in our M.

Also, my H needs to have realistic expectations of a relationship... that Rs change and grow and becomes stable and enriched. No relationship remains in that 'rolling-in-love' stage. That there are ups and downs in life- career, personal relationships, spiritual life and I need to know that H will stick through all the good and bad times.

Chackler, I can't tell you where to find the courage. But part of it this is being able to be open and honest to your spouse. You have different point of views and feelings... men and women often do, and both have different ways of solving problems. Like my explanation above, most of the time, us women just want to be heard and have our feelings acknowledged!

I learnt a lot from this thread. I will try not to 'attack' my H so often. In order to do that, I also need him to address issues immediately before it accumulates and blows up.
Thank you all, for sharing.

Bump for daha...

bump for T'sgal

Bump for Ogirl

bumping back to the top <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

and adding Today's Gift from Hazelden:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Directness

So much of our communication can reflect our need to control. We say what we think others want to hear. We try to keep others from getting angry, feeling afraid, going away, or disliking us. But our need to control traps us into feeling like victims and martyrs.

Freedom is just a few words away. Those words are our truths. We can say what we need to say. We can gently, but assertively, speak our mind.

Let go of your need to control. We do not need to be judgmental, tactless, blaming, or cruel when we speak our truths. Neither do we need to hide our light. Let go, and freely be who you are.

Today, I will be honest with others, and myself knowing that if I don't, my truth will come out some other way.

You are reading from the book:

The Language of Letting Go by Melody Beattie<hr /></blockquote>

[ March 04, 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Hey Conflict Avoiders !!!!

I am just yanking your chain ....

myrta,

Just an observation...if you see this...

This is an old thread, but read your original response back on page 1.

You and Stanly are still CA'ing the truth about your A to your family. You said it way back then yourself, the truth will eventually out no matter what you do. They will evantually learn of it, even if not from loony OM. And the longer you hide it, run from it and avoid it the more it will hurt when it explodes beyond your control.

Timing is everything, Myrta.

Which, BTW, is I think still my main CA trait. Never seems the right time to take a stand. What hill do I want to die on? Is this one instance really so bad?

I usually lose the big picture that way.

With prayers,

Quote

Directness

So much of our communication can reflect our need to control. We say what we think others want to hear. We try to keep others from getting angry, feeling afraid, going away, or disliking us. But our need to control traps us into feeling like victims and martyrs.

Freedom is just a few words away. Those words are our truths. We can say what we need to say. We can gently, but assertively, speak our mind.

Let go of your need to control. We do not need to be judgmental, tactless, blaming, or cruel when we speak our truths. Neither do we need to hide our light. Let go, and freely be who you are.

Today, I will be honest with others, and myself knowing that if I don't, my truth will come out some other way.

I never realized it but CA is a way of being controlling too. Huh. Makes sense.

Ahh Pep,
As someone else has already stated, "so much said with so little words."
It would seem that to engage in conflict, would also lead to a revalation about what may actually be harbored in that part of your heart that you may not be willing to reveal to anyone but God.
I know for sure, my wife has that part in herself. I know that in reality, so do I.
So what would be the benefit of conflict and ultimately, conversation about that conflict? Sometimes it will only lead to ultimate despair. Yep, sometimes it's better to "fool" ourselves than to face real truth.
Wow, you think, a real conflict avoider!!!
Truth of the matter is, for me, CA can instill hope(even if it false hope). Without that, not only is the future stripped from us, but also the present.
Ever hopeful,
All Blessings,
Jerry

"ultimate despair"

Jerry .... where are you headed with this?

Sorry Pep,
I have a habit of posting that leaves most scratching their head and saying "what?"
I aam trying to say that if one's past actions are horrible and simply cannot be defended in any way, shape , or form, should these past actions be discussed over and over again, or should we let go and concentrate on today and the future?
My FWW is not the same person today that she was 4 years ago. Should she not be allowed to live in God's grace and mercy, or should she be forced by me or others to relive her sin over and over again?
For me to do this, I would be labled by many as a CA. So I could change all that, but at what price. The loss of my 35 year old marriage?
I guess what I am saying, is to change my stance of CA at this point could ultimately cost me my marriage, and I don't think at this point, it would be worth it, just to say that I AM NOT A CA.
Does that make any sence at all?
All Blessings,
Jerry

A very useful bump up.

I would like to make a comment concerning my path from being a CA in my marriage.

As I gained confidence and saw results in my marrige through not avoiding conflict, I found myself becoming confrontational in an eerily dead-eyed way. That is I'd let NOTHING slip, defer NOTHING fo a more approrpiate time. And I could feel myself readying myself for a nonLB-confrontation.

What balls !

I have learned that assessing stuff in context is important. Some stuff doesn't need confronting, and other stuff needs to be challenged at a more appropriate time. I still find this slightly difficult as I fear being a CA once more, but I AM striking a good balance lately.

Its sort of like I have had to learn DIPLOMACY in my marriage. Not CA, not aggression, but the art of getting things done through CORRECT debate.

Quote

Its sort of like I have had to learn DIPLOMACY in my marriage. Not CA, not aggression, but the art of getting things done through CORRECT debate.

How very wonderful this is !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmmm,
So what do you guys think?
Am I avoiding conflict to keep the peace or am I am I keeping the peace to avoid conflict????
Jerry

I've been avoiding this post just based on the title! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jerry

Deliberately risking losing peace is hard for a man. I know this. A man can soak up a whole lot of hurt and dissatisfaction for the sake of peaceful life. We have a common saying in England - I don't know if the saying is used in the US: " anything for the quiet life".

That is "I will tolerate unfairness and deep dissatisfaction as long as there is no conflict".

But in truth the quality of the peace bought with such cowardice is not worth having. I know this my CA contributed to a HIGHLY unsatisfying marriage and certainly stopped me from impeding Squid from having an affair.

I have found that while diplomatic management of conflict can cause a perceived disruption of the 'peace' in our life, teh genuine peace that is produced by diplomatic debate and POJA is CLEANER and PURER than CA peace. CA peace is just absence of conflict, but DISCUSSED and AGREED peace is PRESENCE OF HAPPINESS AND CONTENTMENT.

That make any sense ?

"Peace" is not a lofty ambition. Happiness and/or contentment should be our ambition. Peace just means lack of war and can hide enormous injustice.

I feel a fraud offfering this as if an expert when I still have so much to learn here, but I need to point our the benefits I have seen through not avoiding conflict.

I can't work out why you're avoiding conflict, Jerry. But if you're like you just don't have the fight to stand up for your opinion.

Why avoid conflict? I start to physically shake when there is a conflict, and shiver. I feel afraid, too, although there is no logical reason for it and I can't articulate one. It must be something from my home of origin, I feel like a little child in those situations. Pratising doesn't make the feeling go away, and when the discussion in over I feel so upset that I have disappointed someone that the physical reactions continue. My hands are cold, I am shaking, I crave a drink.
There is no logical reason for this. I have a good job which involves a lot of conflict and I usually step up to the plate. I own apartment buildings and issues with tenants necessarily come up. I have kids that need advocating for. But in all situations, even with my husband, or close friends, I get these horrible feelings during conflict. The feelings are so unpleasant that the benefits are to avoid the conflict and therefore the unpleasant physical reactions.

I just realized this was an old thread. I saw the title in the active index, and clicked on it, read the first page, and not realizing there was anymore, posted the above.

Then I realized there were many pages. I just read through the entire thread, there's a lot of great stuff in here. As someone previously posted, I also get so upset with the person I am in confict with that I am unable to feel anything positive for them and have ruined relationships due to this. Partly it is the lack of knowledge as to how to appropriately (and tactfully) handle conflict.

When I'm angry, or scared, my brain stops working.

Em

Great thread. Learned a lot. Didn't know how funny CAs could be.

bump
reading assignment for conflict avoiders

Bump
For
Marcos

See if any of this helps?

Thanks, Pep, for this and for the other link!

Reading ...

[b]What stops you from taking action or speaking up?
a bizarre and irrational fear of being seen as demanding, needing, spoiled, unreasonable, controlling, whiny, or entitled. this ONLY presents itself in my relationship w/ my husband. i think, "what if i ask for something/object to something and he gives me what i want but quietly resents it? or worse, what if he makes a big show of how patiently he's indulging me, to the point where i feel like a tyrannical brat-b**** and can't enjoy it? or what if i tell him something's important to me and he's shocked and horrified?" i would rather suck it up.

What benefit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?
maintaining the illusion that i just happen to love everything H loves, that i think like him, that our minds are in accord. writing this down makes me see how foolish this is. i'd never really thought of it in terms of benefits; i guess the only benefit would be a negative: the ABSENCE of disapproval and doubt.

What has conflict avoidance cost you?[/b]
now that my husband knows that i've been basically lying by omission for the last 9 years and essentially denying him the opportunity to make me truly happy, i would say it's cost me his trust; my refusal to disagree freely and resolve conflict in a loving manner undermined our marriage and reduced it to a civil partnership. silent dishonesty erodes closeness, causes each spouse to give up on the other, and in a sheerly pragmatic sense, IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE.

constant CA started to eat at me--i started keeping a record of wrongs. i convinced myself that i had resorted to CA for my H's benefit, and that i was sacrificing my desires for his, and that i deserved better, and that there was SURELY someone else who would REALLY understand me. the rest is history.

people, please just argue it out like adults. don't indulge in the self-imposed martyrdom of CA. learn to practice radical honesty. you deserve better in your marriage than the absence of open conflict. you deserve HARMONY, INTIMACY, LOVE. don't settle for compromise. don't agree to disagree. don't maintain CA until you get so resentful you do something regrettable.

]

Originally Posted by RemainNameless

[b]What stops you from taking action or speaking up?
a bizarre and irrational fear of being seen as demanding, needing, spoiled, unreasonable, controlling, whiny, or entitled. this ONLY presents itself in my relationship w/ my husband. i think, "what if i ask for something/object to something and he gives me what i want but quietly resents it? or worse, what if he makes a big show of how patiently he's indulging me, to the point where i feel like a tyrannical brat-b**** and can't enjoy it? or what if i tell him something's important to me and he's shocked and horrified?" i would rather suck it up.

What benefit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?
maintaining the illusion that i just happen to love everything H loves, that i think like him, that our minds are in accord. writing this down makes me see how foolish this is. i'd never really thought of it in terms of benefits; i guess the only benefit would be a negative: the ABSENCE of disapproval and doubt.

What has conflict avoidance cost you?[/b]
now that my husband knows that i've been basically lying by omission for the last 9 years and essentially denying him the opportunity to make me truly happy, i would say it's cost me his trust; my refusal to disagree freely and resolve conflict in a loving manner undermined our marriage and reduced it to a civil partnership. silent dishonesty erodes closeness, causes each spouse to give up on the other, and in a sheerly pragmatic sense, IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE.

constant CA started to eat at me--i started keeping a record of wrongs. i convinced myself that i had resorted to CA for my H's benefit, and that i was sacrificing my desires for his, and that i deserved better, and that there was SURELY someone else who would REALLY understand me. the rest is history.

people, please just argue it out like adults. don't indulge in the self-imposed martyrdom of CA. learn to practice radical honesty. you deserve better in your marriage than the absence of open conflict. you deserve HARMONY, INTIMACY, LOVE. don't settle for compromise. don't agree to disagree. don't maintain CA until you get so resentful you do something regrettable.

Wow!
Look at you!

hey, Pep! i don't know if you've been on my thread lately--my husband got curious about MB, got on the forum, figured out who i was, and read EEEEEVERYTHING i've ever posted. the relief is tremendous. he's totally seen inside my head, so it's impossible to retreat back into CA--we're moving forward!

Originally Posted by RemainNameless

hey, Pep! i don't know if you've been on my thread lately--my husband got curious about MB, got on the forum, figured out who i was, and read EEEEEVERYTHING i've ever posted. the relief is tremendous. he's totally seen inside my head, so it's impossible to retreat back into CA--we're moving forward!

Well, I guess you ain't "nameless" any more!

I'll have to read your thread.
Show H this post you made too.
It's awesome!

bump

This was the beginning of the end of my marriage. CA is lying by omission.

Only "fix" for it is RH and then PoJA.

Originally Posted by catwhit

Only "fix" for it is RH and then PoJA.

Yup. Wish I would of known that before. If you are reading this and what a happy marriage those two policies will help your marriage to a long way.