But, really, it's not about you. It's about us. It's about the fellas.
I was searching for an image for a model using an iceberg to explain the hierarchy of beliefs, thoughts, feelings, and actions, and stumbled on something entirely different than I had expected.
Never even heard of this site before, but it's rather interesting. This particular article actually ended up being along the lines of what I was looking for;
Quote
According to the authors of The Resilience Factor, this experience of a mismatched stimulus/reaction is �a sign you are being affected by an underlying belief-a deeply held belief about how the world ought to operate and how you feel you ought to operate within that world. �These deeper motivations and values often drive us and determine how we respond to adversity�these underlying beliefs-or icebergs, as we call them- are usually outside our awareness, deep beneath the surface of our consciousness.�
Soooooo.... I did some more quick digging on the site's articles.
For instance, this article defending marriage, or this one on how to apologize "like a man."
It melted down, but gents, get reading and let's discuss. Let's reverse "the end of manliness."
It's a humorous site. I cracked up reading How to Build an Impenetrable Snow Fort and How to Hail a Taxi...Like a Man. I really liked the hair care stuff that had different kinds of pomade (I have to use pomade). Found out I use the same stuff as Mad Men crew...love that show.
It's really too bad men LET themselves be emasculated.
It's a humorous site. I cracked up reading How to Build an Impenetrable Snow Fort and How to Hail a Taxi...Like a Man. I really liked the hair care stuff that had different kinds of pomade (I have to use pomade). Found out I use the same stuff as Mad Men crew...love that show.
It's really too bad men LET themselves be emasculated.
Right?
Actually, this one might become a daily read and/or a notebook site for me.
I just got done going over some of the health and fitness articles, like 35+ variations of pushups.
Aztec pushups look BRUTAL.
That, and it's got me really interested in my N.U.T.s (Non-negotiable, unalterable terms).
Quite honestly, from what I have read so far, I think we could all use a little "manning up."
Okay, Prisca is sitting right next to me, on her pink laptop, with this thread up, with this sentence highlighted, looking at me saying "No, I didn't!"
Maybe she thinks since she's logged in as me on that machine it doesn't count?
Okay, Prisca is sitting right next to me, on her pink laptop, with this thread up, with this sentence highlighted, looking at me saying "No, I didn't!"
Maybe she thinks since she's logged in as me on that machine it doesn't count?
Throughout human history, however, their physical and mental differences have led to widespread discrimination by men against women. We should not be surprised at that tragic result because whenever there have been differences among us, we have tended to discriminate. And since there are no greater differences than there are between a man and a woman, we should expect sexual discrimination. It's been less than 100 years that women have even had the right to vote here in America because they were judged to be intellectually inferior. Instead of seeing women as an essential complement to their lives, men have tended to view them as personal property that were to serve them throughout life, much like slaves. Men viewed themselves as superior in every way, and felt that the judgment of women was inadequate to make final decisions, even when it came to voting.
Thankfully, we have seen justice for women. Education, the ultimate equalizer, has proven that women are every bit as intelligent and creative as men. In fact, they are now in the majority in most colleges and universities. Every male college student can attest to the fact that women are in no way intellectually inferior.
I attend a private university with a census of 70% female students.
Nationally, the same trend is being followed.
Female infidelity is on the rise.
What happened? Women's lib? Feminism? A degenerating Y chromosome?
Nah. Men have just become weenies. We became politically correct. Every time we tried to stand for being male, we were beaten down with accusations of perpetuating patriarchy or misogyny. As if masculinity in it's very essence is misogyny.
Like the pygmy husband in the Bugs Bunny cartoons we cowered to the wishes of women because we thought it was to our benefit. We let them change us the way they saw fit, and when they were done "fixing" us, they didn't like the end product of their design.
Let's face it, women design poor men just as badly as men design poor women.
The men here in poor marriages, or who have faced the brunt of adultery have been emasculated to a point of breaking. Some on the other end of the spectrum are overcompensating by adopting a caricaturization of masculinity that is harmful to themselves, and harmful to masculinity as a whole.
Gentleman, it's time to "man up." But first, I think a lot of us have a lot of exploration into just what that means.
While much in the way of traditional gender roles has shifted in modern times, most women I know still want a man who can be the rock in the relationship. But just what does being the rock entail? I asked this question in the Community, and this is what a few of the men had to say:
Jamie said: �To me, that means being mature, guided by reason and my family�s best interest, rather than being given to emotional upsets. My wife wants to know that if she gives me her cares and concerns, she can rest assured that I�ll take care of them responsibly.�
Jeffre said: �To me, being the rock means I need to be the calm when life starts getting stormy. Not that I can control the events that happen in life, but I can control how our family responds to the events. . . Does it mean I�m always �the rock?� No, there are times when I have had to lean on my wife for support, but as a general rule my job is to be there for her and the kids. If there is a crisis and I�m not doing well, I have to put aside my fear and anxieties to step up for them. You feel like you want to crawl into a hole and disappear, but you can�t because others depend on you. Those are the times of real testing. When those times arrive I think of a quote I read somewhere (I don�t know who originally said it) but here it is: �Ask not for a lighter burden, but ask for broader shoulders.�
Robert said: �My dad was always the �rock� in the family. He�s the go to guy. The person you can always rely on. The person that you know will be strong when everyone else isn�t�Being the �rock� means always doing what you say you will do. Being calm when the situation seems to be chaotic and panic the order of the day. My dad is the rock because he is reason when emotion prevails, compassion when hearts are hardened, and humorous when you least expect it.�
What else does it mean to be the rock? Let�s take a look.
Is it any question how we get it "wrong" when we have these portrayals perpetuated out there?
I'm surprised Tim Taylor from Home Improvement didn't make the list. Though, I wonder where he would fall? Homer made it in the "Best" because he can't help but to be bumbling, but often redeems himself with his dedication to family.
Tim? Dunno... he has the kind of willful ignorance and false bravado that too many men adopt to be "manly."
In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "It's deja vu all over again!"
I think it was here, but it could have been another forum, where this topic appeared a few months ago.
My answer then, as now is summed up thus:
"The women's movement has succeeded. It's turned men into women and women into men."
Read some of the later writings of the women who began the feminist movement, esp. Betty Friedan, and you'll see this was never the intent, so therefore not a 'success' at all, for anyone.
Gentleman, I don't really want this thread to be about placing blame.
Find out what's f(*&ed up, and fix it. Then no one gets blamed.
What I am hoping for is for a little masculine humility; that many of us have had poor example after poor example of maleness, masculinity, and/or manliness.
That our falsely held beliefs in manliness prevent us from openly admitting it, and that we are responsible as male peers to support and gut-check each other in learning to walk a man's walk and talk a man's talk.
I don't want this thread to melt down like the former thread in this vein.
The first loss suffered by a BH is the loss of manhood in a psychological sense, and leaves us questioning.
Let's answer those questions, let's not leave it up to the ladies to tell us to be men, let's JUST BE MEN, and if we aren't sure... well then, BE MAN ENOUGH TO ASK.
HHH, we're at a bit of a crossroads here, I think. On the one hand, we're told that "men show no pain," don't ask for directions, solve their own problems, and "man up."
On the other hand, men are portrayed in the media as clueless, wimpy, helpless, bumbling buffoons who couldn't pour urine out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.
In my opinion, neither stereotype is healthy, and I honestly don't think true for the majority.
Even though I'm not a hulking brute of a man, I've never doubted my masculinity. But I was on a fast track toward destruction through my own self-centered ideas and behavior. Nearly twenty years ago I was blessed with that "moment of clarity" that allowed me to see how powerless and out of control I was. It was a turning point in my life.
Present day: once a week I attend a men's small group Bible study. Some of the most manly men I've ever met attend this. I'm talking about military jet jockeys, government black hat types, and so on. Despite the high testosterone level, we share with one another the things that are going on in our lives, and we have a pledge to one another to be accountable.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn. Rather, I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't have all the answers and am not afraid to ask for help.
HHH, we're at a bit of a crossroads here, I think. On the one hand, we're told that "men show no pain," don't ask for directions, solve their own problems, and "man up."
On the other hand, men are portrayed in the media as clueless, wimpy, helpless, bumbling buffoons who couldn't pour urine out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.
In my opinion, neither stereotype is healthy, and I honestly don't think true for the majority.
Even though I'm not a hulking brute of a man, I've never doubted my masculinity. But I was on a fast track toward destruction through my own self-centered ideas and behavior. Nearly twenty years ago I was blessed with that "moment of clarity" that allowed me to see how powerless and out of control I was. It was a turning point in my life.
Present day: once a week I attend a men's small group Bible study. Some of the most manly men I've ever met attend this. I'm talking about military jet jockeys, government black hat types, and so on. Despite the high testosterone level, we share with one another the things that are going on in our lives, and we have a pledge to one another to be accountable.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn. Rather, I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't have all the answers and am not afraid to ask for help.
To me, there's nothing unmanly about that!
You hit the nail on the head there, Fred.
That's really the aim here.
We have fallen far from the tree, but it's due to a lack of accountability, and the decline of male peer groups.
Because of the decline of strong male peers and mentors, a lot of men are kind of left kind of feeling it out in the dark until, like you, they somehow achieve some moment of clarity.
Some never get that moment.
Some overcompensate stereotypical "man behaviors" to a point of caricature, or get stuck in a man-boy cycle.
It's funny that I just happened on another book about the whole thing.
Accountability and humility. The two go hand-in-hand.
The more I read through AoM, the more I like it. I don't know who else ever thought it, but I know I did; Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird is the kind of man worth striving to be!
In Maycomb County, Atticus was known as a man who was �the same in his house as he is on the public streets.� That was the standard he lived by. He did not have one set of morals for business and one for family, one for weekdays and one for weekends. He was incapable of doing anything that would broach the inviolable sanctity of his conscience. He made the honorable decision, even when that decision was unpopular.
�This case, Tom Robinson�s case, is something that goes to the essence of a man�s conscience-Scout, I couldn�t go to church and worship God if I didn�t try to help that man.�
�Atticus, you must be wrong��
�How�s that?�
�Well, most folks seem to think they�re right and you�re wrong��
�They�re certainly entitled to think that, and they�re entitled to full respect for their opinions,� said Atticus, �but before I can live with other folks I�ve got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn�t abide by majority rule is a person�s conscience.�
Atticus understood that a man�s integrity was his most important quality-the foundation upon which his honor and the trust of others was built. Stripped of integrity, a man becomes weak and impotent, no longer a force for good in his family or community.
�If you shouldn�t be defendin� him, then why are you doin� it?�
�For a number of reasons,� said Atticus. �The main one is, if I didn�t I couldn�t hold up my head in town, I couldn�t represent this county in the legislature, I couldn�t even tell you or Jem to do something again.�
�You mean if you didn�t defend that man, Jem and me wouldn�t have to mind you any more?�
�That�s about right.�
�Why?�
�Because I could never ask you to mind me again. Scout, simply by the nature of the work, every lawyer gets at least one case in his lifetime that affects him personally. This one�s mine.�
I ain't afraid to admit it. This is a moment in both the book and the movie that swells my chest, tightens my throat, and gets my eyes watering.
Why? Because I watch, and think "I hope that I can live every day of my life with that kind of strength and conviction."
I don't have anything to add to that. HHH, but I strongly agree. I've always liked Atticus Finch, too. My kids don't call me by my first name, but they are probably raised in a somewhat similar iconoclastic way.
I don't have anything to add to that. HHH, but I strongly agree. I've always liked Atticus Finch, too. My kids don't call me by my first name, but they are probably raised in a somewhat similar iconoclastic way.
Been kinda thinkin of you, Markos.
Back on the first page, I linked to an article about "Iceberg Beliefs."
Reflecting on that, I thought of your (and my own) struggles with AO behavior.
Read over it a tad, and the scenario presented - do you think part of your AO problem might be some "Iceberg Beliefs?"
Hold onto your nuts was a good read and a real compliment to MB I thought. It also specifically suggests forming small peer groups to talk about stuff kind of like Fred's group.
I think its a great idea. Even if I spotted no less than four ladies on the way in here lol.
When I read the book it was before I came to MB. I wrote five or six nuts, but only one really stuck with me through all this time. I mean one thing that is not negotiable and I hung onto. Mel will laugh at this, cause she had to pistol whip me to get me to expose... "I will not live in fear"
Pretty simple, but I got a lot of mileage out of that one the last six months. Hope to get some more.
Anyway the book was great, although slanted to guys who aren't trying to win back a wife from OM. Really a pep talk I could have benefited from eighteen months ago before this all started.
Well I saw the Atticus Finch reference, and I had to read it. Yeah now there was what i allways wanted to be as a man. (Did I mention I was a crack shot with a rifle?)
A man with a conscience, integrity, and honor. Us men need those role models.
Loving this Thread, and haven't even read it all yet.
I don't have anything to add to that. HHH, but I strongly agree. I've always liked Atticus Finch, too. My kids don't call me by my first name, but they are probably raised in a somewhat similar iconoclastic way.
Y'know I haven't read 'To Kill a Mockingbird' since high school. I'll have to put it on my reading list for after I finish re-reading 'Atlas Shrugged' - we saw the movie on Friday and it made me want to read the book again.
But yeah my kids don't call me by my first name either. I have a title and it's "Dad". But we do follow the southern form of the kids calling adults 'Mister Dave' or 'Miss Kelly'.
I don't have anything to add to that. HHH, but I strongly agree. I've always liked Atticus Finch, too. My kids don't call me by my first name, but they are probably raised in a somewhat similar iconoclastic way.
Y'know I haven't read 'To Kill a Mockingbird' since high school. I'll have to put it on my reading list for after I finish re-reading 'Atlas Shrugged' - we saw the movie on Friday and it made me want to read the book again.
But yeah my kids don't call me by my first name either. I have a title and it's "Dad". But we do follow the southern form of the kids calling adults 'Mister Dave' or 'Miss Kelly'.
It seems a little strange... but it's a work of fiction, so I'm not quite sure if there was a heavy subtext to it or not.
Atticus, though, spoke very straight and very plain to his children. He seemed content to command the respect of his children through his character and integrity rather than his position as their father.
I don't know, but Gregory Peck's portrayal of the character was so spot-on, that I'm not surprised that they never tried to remake it (like Of Mice and Men). I can no longer read the book without seeing the film portrayal of Atticus.
I bought FWW a very nice copy a few years ago. Spend the extra cash to get one with a nice cover and quality paper.
I'll have to put it on my reading list for after I finish re-reading 'Atlas Shrugged' - we saw the movie on Friday and it made me want to read the book again.
Wow. This thread is starting to become seriously dangerous.
I better call the women to come get us back in line.
I'll have to put it on my reading list for after I finish re-reading 'Atlas Shrugged' - we saw the movie on Friday and it made me want to read the book again.
Wow. This thread is starting to become seriously dangerous.
I better call the women to come get us back in line.
Finally, the men have come back to Marriage Builders! Seriously though, this is a great idea. I know I've had to suck it up and learn to become my own man again.
My story - When my FWW started getting a little too wild and crazy for my comfort zone I confronted her and was completely immasculated by her...repeatedly. I didn't let her have any "fun" anymore, I had become a stick in the mud, I was causing problems in our relationship, etc, etc. During this time she decided to try some new things and that included other men. I saw it happening right before my eyes yet I was almost powerless to do anything about it. I let her control my feelings and perceptions because I was afraid I'd lose her if I pushed back too hard.
Yeah, I'm ready to "man up" and restart my life again. I've already made huge changes with more to come.
Great thread here. Thanks for starting it. I just stumbled upon it now and will need to read the links later on, but I think it is needed and will be helpful.
I can say that to me personally, I have seriously taken a blow to my own 'manlihood' due to my WXW's affair. Plus the actual process of attempting to Plan A with a non-repentant wayward wife causes a lot of natural inner-conflict. At least for me it did. As a 'man', the instant easy answer would have simply to ended it all and move on. As a real man (and father), I tried to do the best as the head of the family and do what I could.
Now that I'm divorced and starting to re-define who I am and what my goals are, I've found that during my marriage I simply became what I thought a husband and provider should be. Now that I'm on my own so to speak, I see that I've lost touch with who I really am and want to be.
Hoping this thread helps in this process. Thanks again.
Great thread here. Thanks for starting it. I just stumbled upon it now and will need to read the links later on, but I think it is needed and will be helpful.
I can say that to me personally, I have seriously taken a blow to my own 'manlihood' due to my WXW's affair. Plus the actual process of attempting to Plan A with a non-repentant wayward wife causes a lot of natural inner-conflict. At least for me it did. As a 'man', the instant easy answer would have simply to ended it all and move on. As a real man (and father), I tried to do the best as the head of the family and do what I could.
Now that I'm divorced and starting to re-define who I am and what my goals are, I've found that during my marriage I simply became what I thought a husband and provider should be. Now that I'm on my own so to speak, I see that I've lost touch with who I really am and want to be.
Hoping this thread helps in this process. Thanks again.
Every post like this one here makes me thankful for getting this ball rolling.
I think a lot of us lacked proper male role-models, as well as proper male peers.
I know I do; my dad is a doormat, my brother is an adulterer, and any other outside male modeling was limited or brief.
Geez SOL don't be so hard on yourself. You could teach most of us a thing or two. I've pulled strength from your story on bad days...more than once.
Haven't seen any gurls on here in a bit. We'll have to be careful or Marital will have everyone reading "Little Women" by this time next week.
Didn't realize I was sounding hard on myself. I'm really not. I'm good with what I did and the how and why I did it. Just stating that during the time, it was a struggle and I didn't feel like much of a man. You know, the whole feeling emasculated by WW stuff. Big blow to my self-esteem as well.
I've had some good role models and peers being career military and being in the Infantry (Probably too much testosterone to be honest about it), plus my father is and was a very good man. Just sharing that for me personally, the infidelity and everything that comes with it made me question myself is all.
Haven't seen any gurls on here in a bit. We'll have to be careful or Marital will have everyone reading "Little Women" by this time next week.
Hey, look, the door's not closed all the way!.....hey, fellas, your UPS delivery from Borders Books is here - they delivered it to the wrong thread...man, it's heavy, must be a lot of books in here...Can someone help me with this box? Ooops, it broke open, sorry! Hey, you guys started a book club! Neato!
There had better not be any insult done to the honor of the lovely Lennon Sisters, here....
No way! Janet was my fave! How about yours? Man, I wanted to grow up to be just like her. Sadly, I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.
I'm really looking forward to a complete discussion and dissection of the nuances of "The Secret of Holiday Island" as soon as you guys are done reading it!
Does anyone else find it "interesting" that our last two Democrat presidents were raised in predominantly women-only households?
Much has been said and speculated about their character (or lack of).
A correlation?
Reading the article, which states the decline of the man in marriage began with the industrial revolution, I sincerely doubt it's limited to the last 4 presidents, nor to a party line.
Nor do I think that trying to align politics with masculinity is conducive to the purpose of the thread.
There had better not be any insult done to the honor of the lovely Lennon Sisters, here....
No way! Janet was my fave! How about yours? Man, I wanted to grow up to be just like her. Sadly, I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.
I'm really looking forward to a complete discussion and dissection of the nuances of "The Secret of Holiday Island" as soon as you guys are done reading it!
Pardon me, but I have a whole collection of "Sweet Valley High" to finish first.
There had better not be any insult done to the honor of the lovely Lennon Sisters, here....
No way! Janet was my fave! How about yours?
The one that was always smiling!
Quote
I'm really looking forward to a complete discussion and dissection of the nuances of "The Secret of Holiday Island" as soon as you guys are done reading it!
Looks like it's only ten cents used, for some reason.
Don't feel too bad about the lack of broad based participation. I am sure there are many lurkers. Thise of us lacking in masculinity may not have much to contribute, but we are the ones most in need of the content others provide.
Don't feel too bad about the lack of broad based participation. I am sure there are many lurkers. Thise of us lacking in masculinity may not have much to contribute, but we are the ones most in need of the content others provide.
I'm not too worried. Besides lurkers, there are some who are embroiled in more immediate troubles.
I put a call out on the SAA board and, low and behold, a few others come aboard.
There has been quite a smattering of reading presented already, some who show up are going to be doing some catch-up.
Oh Holy hell my aching eyeballs, what did I walk into here?
I thought this was a No Gurlz club? Kind of feel like I walked into the Lady's Room by mistake. Will go back and check the sign on the door real quick...
How do you guys have time to read between working on cars and being in the gym?
And if anyone wants hair removal...you need Nair Speed Cream for Men (yes, it's specified as for men). That is unless you neandrathals and your women like all that crazy, ugly back hair.
How do you guys have time to read between working on cars and being in the gym?
And if anyone wants hair removal...you need Nair Speed Cream for Men (yes, it's specified as for men). That is unless you neandrathals and your women like all that crazy, ugly back hair.
I had to google what a Chilton guide was. And then all the flashbacks of using it to work on cars came back to me. Thank God my brother in law is a mechanic and Chilton doesn't have to visit anymore.
Ok, triple H, a thread about men for men and by men.
Here's an issue near to my heart. How many of you are tired of commercials that portray men as idiots, with or without a woman or girl to either show them straight or comment on how stupid men are?
A copy of the email I just sent taco bell media relations:
I�m pretty tired of commercials that portray men as idiots, and your recent commercial with the idiot screaming �I won� is one of the most vapid on television. Don�t know who does your marketing research, but men buy more taco bell products than women, portraying them as [censored] is not comedy and is NOT going to sell product.
I will be urging all of my friends and family to boycott your product until you remove this offensive commercial.
I was watching Olivia with my daughter the other day. The Dad went grocery shopping and had no idea what to buy for meals. And then he forgot a kid at the store.
It wasn't until recently that I really started to notice how idiotic they make men look on TV. I just wish I was smart enough to know how to change the channel so I wouldn't have to watch the drivel.
I thought this was a No Gurlz club? Kind of feel like I walked into the Lady's Room by mistake. Will go back and check the sign on the door real quick...
Wait, North! You forgot your dog! We groomed him for you - no charge! Whaddya mean, he used to be a German Shepherd?!
It wasn't until recently that I really started to notice how idiotic they make men look on TV. I just wish I was smart enough to know how to change the channel so I wouldn't have to watch the drivel.
kilted, my set is not connected to a broadcast signal, though it is capable of streaming movies from netflix and playing DVDs.
OK twenty four hours in the man thread, and lets take stock.
We have some Nancy Drew mysteries to read, HHH has a recent copy of redbook, and Marcos may or may not actually be Prisca in disguise.
OK then, ahhh can I suggest a rule? Unless medically or otherwise barred from doing so by an external support group of some kind, all posters must have a cold beer in front of them while on this thread.
OK then, ahhh can I suggest a rule? Unless medically or otherwise barred from doing so by an external support group of some kind, all posters must have a cold beer in front of them while on this thread.
Not going to help my case any to say I don't drink, is it?
I do drink Dr Pepper, which drives away at least one female poster on this board.
Okay, in an unexpected development, Prisca is now reading Art of Manliness, and I think she's making a list of new things I'm going to be expected to do.
Okay, in an unexpected development, Prisca is now reading Art of Manliness, and I think she's making a list of new things I'm going to be expected to do.
Have you noticed that it is authored by a man... and his wife?
They are like mites... sneaking into the little spaces where you won't notice them!
Ack!
(Just kidding, ladies. I love my wife. The rest of you? Hmmm... acceptable, I guess. )
Poor woman had a cancer scare and dear hubby was too busy with his honey to bother checking in on her. Ticks me off and I don't even know this lady.
I swear if my son ever acted like that...
That's another bonus from these forums that I've especially noticed when parents/in-laws are complacent with their child's adultery. It gives us a lesson in what we should be teaching our children in terms of honor, respect, etc.
...and you know it isn't fixed unless you have some extra parts left over.
Son just got his learner's permit. I let him drive me home from driver's ed yesterday. Sat down on the passenger seat of my car for the first time in ages. Felt a bump. It was a part that had fallen off from I don't know where. Has a nice strong spring between 2 plastic flanges. Wonder where it goes?
...and you know it isn't fixed unless you have some extra parts left over.
Son just got his learner's permit. I let him drive me home from driver's ed yesterday. Sat down on the passenger seat of my car for the first time in ages. Felt a bump. It was a part that had fallen off from I don't know where. Has a nice strong spring between 2 plastic flanges. Wonder where it goes?
Nah, I think it is part of the cup holder. Pushes up from the bottom so cups don't fall through. I just have to figure out if there are some screws under the seats that I have to find amidst the gravel in the carpet, or if it slides into a slot.
Now, if it was a spring the size of the ones on the suspension, those I would recognize. I have a Grand Marquis. Same suspension as police and NYC taxis. 32 years on the same platform, you have to really put your mind to it to bust that suspension. That is why we got it. Mrs. Hold snapped the anti-sway bar on her minivan. Repair shop couldn't imagine how she did it. I explained that you have to notice the speed bumps before you can think to slow down, and that typical minivan design specifications did not allow for extended air time.
I read an article where some city in Texas authorized buying some 100+ Crown Vics for their police fleet before they are discontinued. Seems that, in addition to having a lot of spare parts laying around, many cities have frame machines and can just yank the frames back into place if/when they get damaged.
[quote=Reynolds531]There's the root of the problem right there. You shouldn't need a chilton - we are men - we do not need instructions!
I remember the days when using a chilton was worse than no instructions....
Ok you guys have gotten me going with the mystry spring. Did this have at one time a switch that sensed whether someone was sitting in it? I remeber the old Crown Vics that would have this, and the car would buzz and ding and drive ya crazy if someone was sitting in the seat, and didn't click in with the seat belt.. A lot of those harnesses got by-passed as you can imagine.
It could be part of the seat suspension also, added for the electric seat, a stop, also maybe part of the normal seat adjusting mechanism. I have been a car mechanic most my life, fixing mine and everybody elses jalopys, lol, and even did it for a bit as a business for awhile. Those kinda puzzle pieces would stick in my craw too if I found them hanging around. My puzzle challange would kick in and I might even lose some sleep over it, lol.
But I will argue with ya about the instructions thing, I used to tell everyone, who said i was a good tech, that I had good sources, and I would go crazy if all that stuff took residence in my head. Gimme a manuel and I could fix anything, but don't ask me a month later what I did, because I would let it go right out of my head, all I remember was where I put the instructions.
Which reminds me of another story. I had all my tools stored and somebody stole them. My wifes family members, the knuckle draggers, had something to do with it. Well anyways, they didn't steal the manuals, and I got a laugh from that. They didn't want to learn anything, or strain thier brain of course, they were thieves, knowledge was thier enemy.
After they sold the tools for whatever crap they wanted to buy, they were still idiots, and had no respect. Thier punishment is having to live with themselves.
Ok thats the only manly contribution I have for now. Will be wondering about that spring now for awhile...What year was this again? I have a guy at the ford dealership....
My dream sleeper machine was allways an ex police special crown vic, with all the trimmings. Back in the 70s with a 351 and interceptor trans. There were some with high performance suspensions also.
I used to like full sized ford cars, and trucks, but not the GMs, but I have been out of that game so long, and I have never been an auto "nut". I am in no place to judge anymore.
Since we somehow got on cars, I'll toss in a recommendation that those interested look at www.alldatadiy.com for online repair manuals that, it seems, are comparable to those produced by Helm.
They're cheaper than factory books and the best part is you print out what you need, use it and toss it. No more greasy manuals.
Sorry for the t/j HHH, but I guess talking cars falls into the "manly" category and keeps those gurls out of here. Reynolds must be watching the door fairly well, 'bout time he figured it out!
My dream sleeper machine was allways an ex police special crown vic, with all the trimmings. Back in the 70s with a 351 and interceptor trans. There were some with high performance suspensions also.
I used to like full sized ford cars, and trucks, but not the GMs, but I have been out of that game so long, and I have never been an auto "nut". I am in no place to judge anymore.
Speaking of sleepers, I'm so sad to be broke. Saw an '86 Buick Regal Grand National for sale in the local trader for a reasonable amount.
My dream sleeper machine was allways an ex police special crown vic, with all the trimmings. Back in the 70s with a 351 and interceptor trans. There were some with high performance suspensions also.
I used to like full sized ford cars, and trucks, but not the GMs, but I have been out of that game so long, and I have never been an auto "nut". I am in no place to judge anymore.
Speaking of sleepers, I'm so sad to be broke. Saw an '86 Buick Regal Grand National for sale in the local trader for a reasonable amount.
Luxury and speed? Yes, please!
(pipe dream)
Saw this the other day, a GNX with only 10 miles on it. How they never drove it is beyond me.
Thanks for all the suggestions. Let me be clear. It is not just a spring. It is two pieces of dark grey plastic with a spring in the middle that connects them end to end. The spring pushes so as to keep the pieces flat so they resemble one longer piece. I would say the entire assembly is maybe 1"x6", with a 1"x2" piece and a 1"x4" piece. I won't have time to investigate further until tomorrow morning when Mrs. Hold goes to school and D14 goes to swim practice. Then S16 and I can pull the piece out, rummage under the seat to see if any screws fell out, and try to figure out where the assembly came from.
2003 Merc Grand Marquis. I put my OJ in the cup holder as today I do most mornings when I am running late. It sank down much farther than normal. I think we have a winner as to where the flange fell from! Now the question is how to get it back on.
I gotta call Red Green and se if he'll come to this thread also. Vise Grips, Screw drivers and Duct tape, the duct tape can even be used as first aid with napkins from mcdonalds if ya have too,,
2003 Merc Grand Marquis. I put my OJ in the cup holder as today I do most mornings when I am running late. It sank down much farther than normal. I think we have a winner as to where the flange fell from! Now the question is how to get it back on.
Ford Speacial tool # J-2003-0U812 .(oh-you-ate-one-too).
Those things allways get brittle over time, the plastics in trim, due to the glass transistion propertys in heating up and cooling down, like is sunlight. Part of why bullit-proof glass,(Plastic), has to be changed over time. I saw a plastic welding kit in the tools store.. The times they are a a-changin..
Good luck figuring it out without breaking it. Sounds like another Manly challange of the puzzle kind on the Man Thread We need an emotiocon with a little guy with Barbells also.
We need an emotiocon with a little guy with Barbells also.
Thats good JustUss, but how about one with the guys sweatin and pushing it up over his head, with a grimace, Lol. What would be real good, is if he dropped it on his foot.
Well I just noticed you added it to the smilies. Thanks fellow dudeness.
Its allready been discussed, but I wanted to put my .02 in on the way men are portrayed as duffuses on tv and commercials.
Its probably more damaging to children and young people as to what is to be expected as we grow up. I also see how some women can ridicule men over it, but the question remains...
Who belives this dribble? I mean you gotta have some low expectations of yourself to buy this as a guy, or be pretty proud of yourself if you beleive this crap and acually stop for directions.
If women belived this stuff they would fall for any guy that did his own laundry, dishes, and could cook.
Maybe this is why people fall in love so easily and divorce so much nowadays, they think they have a gold mine, because society teaches us these silly role models, and anything deeper is considered so special and unique.
Ok quick Joke ----------------------------- A woman went to an attorney to ask about a divorce. "What grounds do you have, ma'm?" "About six acres." "No, I don't think you quite understand. Let me rephrase the question. do you have a grudge?" "Yes it fits two cars." "I'll try again. does your husband beat you up?" "No, I always get up at least an hour before he does." The attorney could see he was fighting a losing battle. "Madam, Why do you want a divorce?" "He doesn't communicate, I can never understand what he is talking about!" -------------------------------
Ok, now the werewolf has chewed up the pool cues. Im outta here..
If you want a very quick take on how important this article may be to your future happiness and success as a man, honestly assess your reaction to its title.
What did you feel? Were you aghast? Did it offend you? Did it piss you off? Are you utterly confused? If you�re this guy, you DESPERATELY need the wisdom found below.
Were you intrigued by the title? Did it resonate with you for some unknown reason? Did it make you smile? If you�re this guy, you also DESPERATELY need this wisdom. The difference is, it may be much easier for you to take action.
And if it turns out that you have already taken this courageous action, terrific. You�re now in a mature relationship with your mother. Good for you, and for those around you.
If you other good (or not so good) little boys want to feel what it�s like to be a real man, a real man in your relationship with your mother�and ultimately, a real man in your relationship with a significant other�then pay close attention. If you follow the advice you�re about to receive, you will never be the same. And that�ll be a good thing!
I need to get this one.
For one, it doesn't help that my mother inflicted adultery on my father when I was young, or that her current husband was probably another episode of adultery (I don't know when things began, what I know is that it wasn't long after divorce that my mother moved herself and I in with him).
Even more so, after some nasty battling with the "'ol jerkwad" he decided to confide in me that his animosity toward me was a result of my mother treating him like trash, and his jealousy of her children.
The sad thing is, I actually side with a man I would love to hate, as I know exactly how emasculating it is to love a woman who treats you like you aren't worth the dog poo on her shoe... even though in his case that woman is my mother.
However, he needs to cure his chronic case of foot-in-mouth. I told him he has my ear, and if he will listen, I will do what I can to help him.
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Mama�s Boy
Though this will probably not come as news to you, you are a �mama�s boy.� You don�t like that diagnosis? You want a second opinion? OK. You never feel, honestly, as if you measure up as a real man. There�s your second opinion.
Your primary concern is in pleasing your mother, trying not to worry her, worrying about her and how she feels, trying to change your mother, annoying your wife with your concerns about your mom, arguing with your mom, letting your mom dictate family schedules, allowing her gift of guilt to guide your choices� must I go on? This is so painful. Let�s get out of this problem and into the solution, shall we? Let�s blow up this relationship and give you the opportunity to finally be the man, husband, and father you want to be, and that your family needs.
�Blow up? That sounds so violent, Wayne, so unnecessarily macho. Couldn�t you communicate this concept in a more professional, therapeutic way, a way that honors me, my mother and our relationship?� Mmmmm, let me think�NO! Grow up.
There�s nothing to be honored about your current �good little boy� relationship with your mother. It has run its course. You no longer have any need of it. It needs to be jettisoned, like a rocket booster that�s out of fuel. It�s killing you, killing your relationship with your woman, compromising your effectiveness as a father, and keeping you weak as a man in every part of your life. Got it? Let�s blow this �muthah� up, move on, and be the best man, husband, father, and son you can be!
Here's the thing, I allowed myself to move from one mother to another.
The first was my own, the second was the mother of my children. Fun fact; one of FWW's old argument tactics was; "We'll just see what your mother thinks about this!"
No phrase ever uttered unleashed a fury in me like that one.
I have hit something of a stride in my personal recovery where I am just totally let going of fear. Fear of rejection, fear of rebuttal, fear of being wrong (I'd rather be wrong and happy, than right and miserable), fear of breaking peace (which means sacrificing self respect to maintain peace).
I just don't have any more fear left, I have nothing in my life left to lose.
lmao. My wife used to tell me all the time "I'm calling your mom!" This was code for 'you've done something that really pissed me off'. I would have threatened the same thing but my wife's mom is pretty ghetto and thinks that you should trade a man in as soon as he doesn't jump as high as the wife demands immediately. Of course, I've never been one to emasculated or whatever, so that never flew. But, geez, if one of her mom's husbands didn't fall into submission because of verbal aggression, she'd pick something up and start throwing it at them and beat them with inanimate objects. Why anyone ever married her or put up with her behavior was beyond me.
Then my mom would tell my dad and I'd get the lecture. So it wasn't the mom I feared but the lecture from dad.
Speaking of which, I need to call my parents. I haven't spoke iwth either of htem for about 3 weeks.
lmao. My wife used to tell me all the time "I'm calling your mom!" This was code for 'you've done something that really pissed me off'. I would have threatened the same thing but my wife's mom is pretty ghetto and thinks that you should trade a man in as soon as he doesn't jump as high as the wife demands immediately. Of course, I've never been one to emasculated or whatever, so that never flew. But, geez, if one of her mom's husbands didn't fall into submission because of verbal aggression, she'd pick something up and start throwing it at them and beat them with inanimate objects. Why anyone ever married her or put up with her behavior was beyond me.
Then my mom would tell my dad and I'd get the lecture. So it wasn't the mom I feared but the lecture from dad.
Speaking of which, I need to call my parents. I haven't spoke iwth either of htem for about 3 weeks.
Running to mommy is a below-the-belt tactic. The last time FWW used that tactic, I was the one bringing fire down from the sky...
Now days it just wouldn't happen, but then she figured it would be a way to get one over on me because she mistook my seeking the advice of my parents for seeking the permission of my parents.
Reflecting on this, it was my wife's way of venting at the time. She'd confide with mom who would agree with her always that she was right and since I was the husband, I just had to be wrong. And then running to my mom. Geez.
I only tolerated that a couple times before I put a stop to it. I'm sure not going to be pushed around by another guy, let alone a 110 pd woman.
Of course this was years ago and we've both learned so much. I do remember I finally told her after venting to her mom and hten calling mine, "Go ahead and get your stuff and get out." She looked at me like I was crazy. To which I replied, "I won't put up with disrespect. And I'm certainly not going to settle for being in a relationship with a woman that's going to act like a witch." Replace the word witch with something else. I'll admit that wasn't the best way to phrase it. But we were both really young and have learned a lot. She quit after that.
HHH, Thats so interesting about the relationship with your Mom, and how you relate so much crap to your struggle with her.
Its also true that you can probably point to your father getting emasculated by her, and his life being scarred by her behavior.
I have some of the same results in my life, and like you are traveling some of the same journey. I will explain a little bit of the simularitys. I yet have found an answer, but like you, see the result in my current life and he choices I have made, and still ticked off and determined, to go down fighting.
In my case the strong and adult person with my parents, was my mom. My Dad was the impossible stubborn and selfish border on crazy one. They were both damaging in thier own way, but Mom knew that us kids were individuals, and was not as much of a baby as my Dad. Mom damaged me as a woman who protected her kids from Dad, and to a boy who wanted to please his Dad, who he desperatly beleived was strong and wanted to do the best bravely for his family, in his heart, to fall short made my life a mission to make him happy. When instead I was treated like I failed him every day, it was very emasculating to say the least. I grew up being run over by everybody, and allways with more to prove than the average boy. Youv'e seen those boys, getting beat up and never standing up for themselves, and youv'e probably wondered why.
But thats not what I was gonna go into, or how I got out of that or what I am looking at now. That is something else, as it pertains to my future and peace.
What I see now, and has been hid from my view because of my struggle to right the wrongs in myself, whether put thier by fools or other such selfish people, the struggle to fight to fix things that don't even exist except in my own mind and imagination, is that I have allways had a tendency to try to "fix" damaged people, like my Dad, and that I was drawn to this like a moth to a flame, not even realizing why, when I fell in love with any woman desparatly. I'm not talking about loving the good things, but the part of why I allowed myself to stay when things got bad.
There was a great difference.
If you read about relationships, it says you go though life trying to repair damaged ones, and it isn't limited to Boy and Mom, Daughter and Dad, it has to do with acceptance with yourself also. With my late WW, she was just as messed up as my Dad. He was allways one of those people that others were afraid for his stability, and I went though my young life trying to give him what he said he wanted, just to see him ruin his life, because he was scared and selfish. I compulsivly did the same with my WW and her problems. Both of them stubbornly held onto thier sicknesses and obsessions. My Dad was used by his own problems, and never had friends, because nobody trusted him, and is now broke and alone in a nurseing home, incapable of any converstaion or relationship outside his own mind. The story of my WW, well she is gone home, and she did herself in her own way, and yes fear took her over. As much as I did to try and help her, she didn't want help, she also had her own flame she was drawn to, and a selfish need to allow the fears she allways talked about, ending up like her Mom, become her fate.
Talk about "what I fear most has come upon me", and letting what What attacks me twist me into that, well we all can be poster children to that, if our emotions get the best of us. In ways only we know, we must protect ourselves from ourselves, and one would hope we pick a mate who understands that also, not using our weaknesses against us.
Its funny, I explained all this to my WW, and also saw the hold it had on her, and there was the attraction. There was what the kinship was forged, the feeling of we still had something to prove, a place inside of us that was not fufilled yet, a cause and reason for living. We had both had things in our life that we were trying to rectify, past pain that had made us different from others. I felt we could help each other. Now I am thinking we destroyed each other, and catered to emotions that should never had to be there, and even made it worse. It was in a way a revertion to childhood, and it felt comfortable because we knew those feelings well. The brave struggle against all odds, nobody understood.
I was aware of this, and was detirmined to put our demons in the past through hard work and realistic goals, introspection and humility, help from all sources. She just had some inner insecurity issues, that she would not work on, that she escaped into also with a fear that became flight, that was what I saw, as I saw it in my Dad, and what kept me in it. I felt pity on her, and responsible also. What a [censored] experience that was.
The good thing is, that I am aware of it, and can see that there is hope for the future. I can tell when my spirit is reacting to fear, and when I am doing something out of some inner drive that is shortsighted and reactionary. There is the spirit of love still in the world, and there can be also built from the ashes, another love even deeper than before. The most important thing to me is figuring out the bullchit, and throwing it in the trash where it belongs, and this takes time, and objective help, from all the positive sources out here, that are willing to fight for the same.
I may feel alone sometimes, but I am not really, and knowledge is power. I have nothing but time anyways, and limited in what I can do or fix, and its never been up to me alone anyways. Shame on those who would take advantage of others weaknesses. God will take care of them, even if we don't want to see them go down.
Oh I forgot to mention, Mom is 84, diabetic, lives by herself, goes to bingo has lots of friends and her own car, and is sharp as a tack still.
She only ever slept with one man, my father, and never found interest beyond him.
He damaged her capacity to ever get involved or married again, but her nature sustained her. She is what I call a strong women, and had everything to do with whatever sanity I have.
Makes you wonder where strength comes from, she has allways been a great person, and I don't think she saw my Dad coming, but she was allways a servent anyways, a caretaker.
Reflecting on this, it was my wife's way of venting at the time. She'd confide with mom who would agree with her always that she was right and since I was the husband, I just had to be wrong. And then running to my mom. Geez.
I only tolerated that a couple times before I put a stop to it. I'm sure not going to be pushed around by another guy, let alone a 110 pd woman.
Of course this was years ago and we've both learned so much. I do remember I finally told her after venting to her mom and hten calling mine, "Go ahead and get your stuff and get out." She looked at me like I was crazy. To which I replied, "I won't put up with disrespect. And I'm certainly not going to settle for being in a relationship with a woman that's going to act like a witch." Replace the word witch with something else. I'll admit that wasn't the best way to phrase it. But we were both really young and have learned a lot. She quit after that.
Now thats a post worthy of the man thread.
I remember when I had the same determination and self-respect KT, wish I had MB to support me when i started to lose it. It was the "marrige at any cost" thing that effected me, and then the regression into the wrong thinking, self-blame, believing it, blah blah, so-on and so-on.
Reminds me of "just cuz, thats why!". Also a light went off in my silly little head when I was reading Exodus, and when Moses asked God who he should tell Pharoah sent him, He said, "Tell him "I am" sent you".
I've just always been a "you won't treat me this way" kind of person. I think I had a hard time overcoming selfishness more than anything else. I chalk this up as being an only child in a very well-to-do family in which I got anything and everything I wanted.
When I was around 18 I learned that others don't control how you feel; you control how you feel. One of the issues this did cause early in the relationship with my wife is she thought I just didn't care about things. So many humorous arguments about "why do you even care so much about" vs "why don't you care about..."
Something I haven't mentioned much or maybe even at all is my wife has extreme bipolar disorder so that has played a bit into our marriage.
Yup we are in control of how we feel, we don't have to be around others that make us feel bad either, well as free adults we don't, unless its that [censored] at work, and so on. Where its outta our jusrisdiction.
I want to study some more about bi-polar disorder. From what I know its the new word for manic-depression. Of course this is a physical description for results that can be explained in behaviour, but I am such a preek when it comes to free will thoughts compared to emotional markers in human behavior, it is tough to convince me a lot of people aren't mis-diagnosed.
I am a firm beliver that people can becaome damaged from circumstances, and it effects brain chemistry, and even can shut off parts of the chemicals out of reaction to fear. I would think it is normal sometimes, and part of self preservation and survival.
I was diagnosed with Bi-polar, then it was brought down to a mild case, now I am going to go to a new shrink to get re-eveluated. This guy doesn't belive at throwing pills at people, but instead in thinking and envirment, along with a natural balance of healthy excercise and diet.
At one time I was precsribed lithium, and then it was a milder dose of Lacmetitol. All the drugs ever did was shut me down between the ears. I didn't feel any better, but I think it was because I was not balanced in my personal life, and to me to be better is to do better.
I am ready to do just what I can do, and be happy with that, and know my weaknesses, which as you know becuase of your training, is really where we can work to improve our performance, and not push ourselves beyond what we can do, as we strengthen our muscles, physical or spiritual.
I am in therapy, and not letting myself get away with too much, and willing to take on all comers, as I fight to get myself back into life fully. I guess thats just the little boy in me that still has something to prove. But what is such a hard thing to balance, is why I do anything, if it doesn't have something to do with someone else. What do I want for myself, and need for myself, first, to be any strength for anyone anyway. I guess that at this point, finding myself, and taking care of me, is my first priority, and really should be for everyone.
Maybe thats what the Irish guy in braveheart was talking about,(although I can see he,"Wasn't right in the head" lol). Maybe self reliance means you have to talk to God for objective knowledge and value for yourself, reguardless of what others think. So many crazy people have used Him as an excuse. But they were unbalanced anyway, if they really believed, nobody would have noticed, because they wouldn't have screwwed up so bad. They wouldn't have destroyed so much in His name.
See the humor?
Well getting off subject again.
CP!!
I am interested in how Bi-polar works, and like diabetes, if I have some abnormality between the ears, I will have to deal with it, ir it will own me, as all weaknesses own us if we let them. Personally, I like to turn curses into blessings, but again theres the cockiness that I hope makes me part of the Manly Man.
Just building the confidance and cockiness through humility? Now C'mon That doesn't seem fair does it?
Take care of your preciuos wife KT, I know you will.
OH BTW, I havn't taken the drugs for a year now, and i am "thinking" my way out of my depression, and have gotten better. But I give credit to this place and therapy, and the drama that has been removed from my life also. the last ten years have been pretty hard.
Don't worry though, I'm not about to end up at McDs with a handgun because I snapped lol. I am willing to explore the possibilty of having Bi-Polar, I just refuse to let it be an excuse for being an A-hole. Gotta set those bars high allways, while keeping our feet on the ground.
Okay, in an unexpected development, Prisca is now reading Art of Manliness, and I think she's making a list of new things I'm going to be expected to do.
Have you noticed that it is authored by a man... and his wife?
They are like mites... sneaking into the little spaces where you won't notice them!
Ack!
Interestingly, Harper Lee, a woman (last I heard), wrote To Kill A Mockingbird.
Then again...maybe Truman Capote (a gay man) and real life neighbor and friend of Harper Lee secretly authored the Atticus Finch part.
I've just always been a "you won't treat me this way" kind of person. I think I had a hard time overcoming selfishness more than anything else. I chalk this up as being an only child in a very well-to-do family in which I got anything and everything I wanted...
Yeah but it is in the past now and you got it handled. Grats my friend. Some do not make it out of those places.
I want to study some more about bi-polar disorder. From what I know its the new word for manic-depression.
I was diagnosed at 8 with manic-depression. I tried to hang myself when I was 8; everyone figured I had a problem then because who tries to kill themself at 8. I am a 'normal, functioning' adult. Because of this, I did not believe in bipolar before meeting my wife. I'm a firm believer that some people have bipolar. I'm also a believer that bipolar is overly misdiagnosed. Lastly I'm a believer that diet of both teh individual and the mother when pregnant play a part in the way people live/act/feel/are.
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I am in therapy, and not letting myself get away with too much
Don't. And, at the same time, don't let people get away with things that harm you emotionally, physically, spiritually, verbally. While you can't always control your environment, you can control yourself and how you respond. The world is full of haters. Don't drink the haterade and don't let the haters get to you.
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Just building the confidance and cockiness through humility? Now C'mon That doesn't seem fair does it?
Being humble and being a weak pacifist are completely different. For the first time in my life, I'm going to use a Bruce Lee quote. "Be like water, my friend." You have to be able to go with the flow and be unwaveringly strong at the same time.
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Take care of your preciuos wife KT, I know you will.
I will. She's an exquisite woman. We are lucky to have each other. It's pretty sweet when you mesh with someone.
Okay, in an unexpected development, Prisca is now reading Art of Manliness, and I think she's making a list of new things I'm going to be expected to do.
Have you noticed that it is authored by a man... and his wife?
They are like mites... sneaking into the little spaces where you won't notice them!
Ack!
Interestingly, Harper Lee, a woman (last I heard), wrote To Kill A Mockingbird.
Then again...maybe Truman Capote (a gay man) and real life neighbor and friend of Harper Lee secretly authored the Atticus Finch part.
Who knew?
Mr. W
p.s. - As a man, I define my own masculinity.
Good point.
Copote, however, didn't model Atticus. He modeled Dill Harris, which has been mentioned by Lee.
Atticus was modeled by her father;
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Her father, a former newspaper editor and proprietor, was a lawyer who served in the Alabama State Legislature from 1926 to 1938.
(Wiki info)
While Lee denies the autobiographical vein of the story, Capote has confirmed that the character of Boo Radley was based on an actual person who lived in their neighborhood who would leave things in the trees.
So the question from there becomes; was Atticus written as Lee's father really was, or did Lee inject her own ideals into the character?
Now I grew up down an old dirt road in a town you wouldn�t know.
My Pops picked the place up for fifteen hundred bucks back in 1964.
My grandfather was a drinker back in the day he
put em down
but a war is known to change a man, and the whiskeys known to change a man
but that�s not me.
I rarely drink from the bottle
but I�ll smoke a little weed.
I still live in the sticks where you wouldn�t go in a town of 1200 off an old dirt road �and a country boy is all I�ll ever be.
Now it�s been 12 years since I�ve sold my soul to the devil in L.A.
He said sign your name here on the dotted line and your songs they all will play.
He set up shop on Sunset
he put me up at the Marquee
he said "you want to sell a million records boy, better listen to me".
He said "change your style
whiten your smile
you could lose a couple pounds
if you want to live this life you better lose that wife
do you need your friends around?" And I said
no that�s not me.
*cause* biggest things in life are my friends and family.
And I like my jeans and my old t shirts and a couple extra pounds never really hurt �cause a country boy is all I�ll ever be �cause Hank taught me just how to stay alive.
you�ll never catch me out the house without my 9 or .45.
I got a big orange tractor and a diesel truck
and my idea of heaven is chasing white tail bucks
and as a country boy you know I can survive
now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel.
One is the colors that fly high and proud
the red the white the blue
the other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made
Don�t Tread on Me is what it says and I�ll take that to my grave because this is me
I'm proud to be American and strong in my beliefs.
And I�ve said it before but I�ll say it again cause I've never needed Government to hold my hand
And I�ve said it before but I�ll say it again cause my family�s always fought and died to save this land and a country boy is all I�ll ever be.
I love my country, I love my guns, I love my family, I love the way it is now, and anybody that tries to change it has to come through me, that should be all of our attitudes, cause this is America, and a country boys good enough for me, son.
Being humble and being a weak pacifist are completely different. For the first time in my life, I'm going to use a Bruce Lee quote. "Be like water, my friend." You have to be able to go with the flow and be unwaveringly strong at the same time...
Ah Master Lee, one of my heros in life. Im gonna get a book of his sometime. Saw a movie about him the other night, and he used that quote. Ah yes, water has been linked to emotion spiritually and practically. Its also the most common element, and the most powerful. Gotta respect that.
Found out he had the Idea for Kung-foo the show, and didn't even get the title role, also that he never lived to see "Enter the Dragon" soar him to superstardom. Heard years ago that it was a bad reaction to precription drugs that that took his life.
I'm so worn out on the way the singer from Creed sounds.
Okay, boys. I have no idea if this is against the TOS but this link has nothing to do with any other marriage site and has everything to do with being a man.
Okay, boys. I have no idea if this is against the TOS but this link has nothing to do with any other marriage site and has everything to do with being a man.
K-T, it seems you have some idea of what to you "manliness" is.
I prefer to live my life using the axiom
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It's none of my d@mn business what other people think of me.
Creatine, whey powder, protein shakes, supersets, dead lifts... these things just aren't for me. In fact, they work contrary to the goals I have set for myself.
For example, right now I'm running 20 - 30 miles per week. 100 miles per month. As we get closer to the Fall, this mileage will increase, as too will my speed. In September I will run at least one, maybe two, half marathons. In October I will run a Ten-Miler followed by a full marathon three weeks later.
In the past month I have dropped three pounds. I hope to drop three more before the marathon. For me, each additional pound subtracts six seconds per mile to my run. Dropping six pounds means a net speed increase then, of 36 seconds per mile, or nearly 16 minutes over the 26.2 miles.
Perhaps to you, running marathons isn't "manly." I don't care. Manliness isn't what I carry around in my shorts, it's what I carry around between my ears.
If I had to pick sides, I would side with Fred on that debate. But I agree with both, allways wanting my physical strength to reflect my mental and spiritual.
Ok , are there any women around listening? Just us guys right?
I used to run Fred, before my leg got real bad, and I also used to practice martial arts, and I was pretty buff from all the hard work on construction and of course around the farmland rural place I was brought up.
I didn't enter competition, because it wasn't about that to me. It was about taking care of myself and/or people I loved, and being at peace with myself through confidance.
One of the greatest inspirations was martial arts, because it was a way to avoid damaging other people in fights, while protecting myself. Judo, translated, "The Gentle Way", is part of this philospy.
In short, I could kick butt if I had to, but did everything possible to avoid it, including swallowing my pride if it came down to it. That was then, and I have let that training go so long I am no longer able to believe I could handle myself if I had to now.
Edit to add: Even if I just had to fake it, and would confront a potentially violent person with a calm voice with the Threat of violence being only a subtle reminder in the background because of my appearance, I would seek peace, and use that projection and threat, only as a way to get them to think about what they were doing. I never promoted violence as a way to solve anything. Little did they know I was a Hippie at heart, lol.
But people respond to confidance, and a firm but gentle demeanor, and many times want to be calmed down by someone with the guts to confront them. Yes sometimes it got crazy, and testostrezone takes over, and restraining was in order. But a beat down ussually didn't solve the problem permenantly, unless it was dealing with animals that preferred to live like one. The option to think was allways given with an earnest look in the eye, and restraint takes control, over reaction. You have to have the confidance that what you are talking about is right, before you can instill that belief in someone else. Its not been about physical strenth, it never has, its been about emotional and spiritual strength.
End Edit
I used to run because I should, to keep myself in shape, and because the body in the temple of the spirit. The same goes with the martial arts. Now I might be moving to a place that is right next to the former state champians Judo Dojo, where a Pastor and founder who I have a good relationship with will help get me back in shape. I can also join the Y and swim instead of run for the cardio I need, and use thier nautilus machines to strengthen my weakened areas.
Because I am a diabetic, I must also rely on diet and maybe even supplements to assist in rebuilding my health.
The most valueable part of anything in life, is the balance in which we live it. To me its has allways been something I seek spiritually, as I do things physically, and how they compliment each other. I'm sure you will all agree.
I downloaded the book "The Tao of Bruce Lee", (well a couple pages till I get some more money lol). I am gonna pick his brain and see if there is anything in it that I like.
I also will be looking into supplements to help me get healthy, but like you Fred, the greatest health is between my ears, and like most martial artists, the most deadliest weapon known to man is the mind.
Funny, The Pastor I spoke of who started the Dojo says' "The Bible, the only book that kills people"
We do go to the Cross kicking and screaming huh Fred?
K-T, it seems you have some idea of what to you "manliness" is.
Of course.
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Creatine, whey powder, protein shakes, supersets, dead lifts... these things just aren't for me. In fact, they work contrary to the goals I have set for myself.
Maybe creatine might not suit someones goals. But the rest of it, I'm not sure how you can dis on a macronutrient (protein) and getting stronger and in better shape (super sets/deadlifts)
Quote
In the past month I have dropped three pounds. I hope to drop three more before the marathon. For me, each additional pound subtracts six seconds per mile to my run.
Actually if you were to exchange 3 pounds of fat for 3 pounds of muscle and use deadlifts to get sronger, you'd increase your pace and recover faster. Crossfit athletes (as an example) deadlift all the time and enter marathons quite often and typically do better than those that just train for marathons. I'm not sure why running marathons and weight training or minding your diet can't be inclusive of each other.
Quote
Perhaps to you, running marathons isn't "manly." I don't care. Manliness isn't what I carry around in my shorts, it's what I carry around between my ears.
I linked to a site that endorses getting stronger, looking better, being in better, shape, etc and you somehow think that I think running marathons is unmanly. I'll have to say that you had to really reach for this. But it's okay if you want to jump to conclusions and come up with a counter attack for an attack that I never made.
"Manliness isn't what I carry around in my shorts, it's what I carry around between my ears."
Technically being a man has everything to do with the testes. So really manliness is what you carry in your shorts. I'm not sure how teh level of intelligence has anything to do with manliness unless it's something like I believe I am manly, so therefore I am.
Just because I'm an avid weight lifter does not mean in any way that I believe that manliness is a purely physical thing. I have a bachelors; I'm working on a masters...I do value intelligence and learning. I have two black belts and do yoga a couple times a week for the healing impact.
I throw heavy stuff because it's fun and like to shoot guns. I also have poetry published and am in the middle of writing a novel while also finishing up biochemistry research to work on writing/publishing a nutrition book. I value learning, intelligence, passion, creativity, and differing goals.
But what I did was link a site with men and women that are sure of themselves...the 'alphas' as some would say. And there are a number of guys on here that are saying they are unsure of themselves and their masculinity. So I linked a site that is filled with people that exhibit the traits that those that are unsure of themselves might take on.
Hold, I posted this on another thread, but you might not be reading it, and I wanted you to see it:
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
No.
Here's your signature line:
�We�re a generation of men raised by women. I�m wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.�
THAT'S what I'm talking about. That is blaming women for male behavior.
No, it's blaming a lack of male involvement, and you are choosing to take it that way.
The blame lies squarely on men.
Hold, this statement in your signature is extremely hard to comprehend without context. I can tell you that it bothers Prisca strongly and that I don't know what it means because I haven't read the article and I lack the context. It's probably bothering a lot of people who don't want to speak up.
I have no doubt that it means something I would probably agree with or sympathize with once I finally read the original article. But you might want to know that without context it might be throwing a lot of people off.
Hold, I posted this on another thread, but you might not be reading it, and I wanted you to see it:
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
No.
Here's your signature line:
�We�re a generation of men raised by women. I�m wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.�
THAT'S what I'm talking about. That is blaming women for male behavior.
No, it's blaming a lack of male involvement, and you are choosing to take it that way.
The blame lies squarely on men.
Hold, this statement in your signature is extremely hard to comprehend without context. I can tell you that it bothers Prisca strongly and that I don't know what it means because I haven't read the article and I lack the context. It's probably bothering a lot of people who don't want to speak up.
I have no doubt that it means something I would probably agree with or sympathize with once I finally read the original article. But you might want to know that without context it might be throwing a lot of people off.
Anyone who takes offense to it, or thrown off by it shouldn't ask me about it. I know what it means to me.
It means I was raised almost exclusively by my mother. It means almost my entire education was given by women, under the rules of conduct built for women. This reshaped world means that the kinetic way which young boys interact with the world - which does not fit the feminized classroom - leads to young boys getting diagnosed with ADD/ADHD twice as often as young girls (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html}.
Are there going to be women who are offended by this? Sure. And I invite them to come and explore the statement, and why it is that it offends them.
Are there going to be women who are offended by this? Sure. And I invite them to come and explore the statement, and why it is that it offends them.
I know why my wife is offended. It's because your quote is provided without context and is easily misunderstood. It's not because she's a feminist or hates masculinity or anything like that. She'd probably agree with a great deal of what you have to say.
Anyway, I invite you to consider if your communication could be made less subject to misunderstanding.
I want to work of a couple of comments through the thread here, and relate it to core beliefs, values, boundaries, or N.U.T.s.
(I'm not HUGE on the N.U.T.s term, but I understand in a world of man-children, it's one way to get their attention)
Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
"The women's movement has succeeded. It's turned men into women and women into men."
Here's the funny thing, I don't think this is quite it. What has happened, is that the workplace and educational system have been reshaped to benefit women, and it has turned men into boys.
What I find disturbing is that it wasn't men who have noticed this the most, it's been women.
It hasn't been men seeking a solution. That's embarrassing. If anyone reading this got to read my go-round w/ CWMI, know this; SHE WAS RIGHT. WE dropped the ball. And there are some who have no interest in picking it back up.
N.U.T. - I will explore and improve my identity as a man.
Originally Posted by MrWondering
p.s. - As a man, I define my own masculinity.
Just a guess, but I'm thinking that most men feel the same way. It's the methods and motivations we use to define our masculinity that become flawed. Men tend to inflict stereotypes on each other, and ourselves;
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The perfect masculine outfit is composed of a tank top, some baggy jeans, basketball sneakers and a cap.
This is the uniform of a man-child, in my opinion.
Manly men don't wear skirts, don't carry bags.
Men are tough and insensitive, they don't cry (maybe in the restroom), don't show emotions, they are not nice.
They only watch sport on TV and they never watched talk-shows like Oprah Winfrey Show, they don't watch soap-operas.
Men like to fight, they enjoy playing video games, sports.
Men are uncivilized, they snore, they fart, they split in public , they need a women to upgrade them.
Men work hard, sacrifice in order to provide for their families.
Manly men, necessarily, practice sports, they are muscular with large shoulders and small waists.
They like women and they don't like men.
Manly men are not too friendly with women, they don't know intimate stuffs about their girlfriends( No girls talk).
They don't engage in gossip, they don't talk trash about other men.
Manly men don't wear tight clothes nor jewelry. And they don't wear rings on certain fingers like the thumb and the little finger. And never wear ankle bracelet, never.
Men should walk straight.
Men should know what to drink at the bar and they should never swallow drinks like apple martini, they always go strong, very strong.
Manly men are macho and confident, they are not shy at all, they should feel comfortable being around other men and being able to talk about every types of sports.
Manly men don't work in fashion and beauty, they are not stylists, make-up artists, designers.
Men always have short nails and they never eat away finger nails.
No hand gestures while talking.
They don't have a soft voice and they don't laugh like women.
Their handshakes are always firm.
Manly men don't use nicknames and they don't allow others to use them.
Manly men don't grow hair and they don't get piercing either.
They stay away from bromance kinda stuffs.
We have a lot of these stereotypes ingrained into our being, and our definition of "men." As with all things, these are either wholly embraced, or wholly rejected.
Another time, it would be interesting to have participants post up some of their definitions of masculinity - as we can already see there is varied divergences in beliefs.
N.U.T.s - I recognize my fallibility and imperfection, and strive to improve.
I maintain humility in my development.
Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
Manliness isn't what I carry around in my shorts, it's what I carry around between my ears.
As soon as the testes develop, while we are still in the wombs of our mothers, they begin producing testosterone. This begins before brain development is complete, and physiologically drives the way that our brain develops from that point forward.
Testosterone is also one of the "pleasure" chemicals released following competition (bonus points if you can hypothesize why your testosterone levels increase after competing).
N.U.T. - I recognized that men and women are different, and that difference is not just OK, it is good.
Are there going to be women who are offended by this? Sure. And I invite them to come and explore the statement, and why it is that it offends them.
I know why my wife is offended. It's because your quote is provided without context and is easily misunderstood. It's not because she's a feminist or hates masculinity or anything like that. She'd probably agree with a great deal of what you have to say.
Anyway, I invite you to consider if your communication could be made less subject to misunderstanding.
I know it is. I will fully admit that it is a challenge.
I'm not taking this journey alone at home. FWW is enjoying it because it drives a lot of conversation.
What I find disturbing is that it wasn't men who have noticed, complained about this the most, it's been women...
Sorry I needed to explain, and clarify, because men don't notice anything, and if they did, they certainly don't complain...
(You know the women are gonna crucify us right HHH, Are you sure you wanna pick this fight?) Im with ya to the end, Semper Fi!!
The only women who would have a problem with this statement would be those who feel threatened by it - or feel that they have to "lose" something for men to once again take responsibility for our identities.
The only women who would have a problem with this statement would be those who feel threatened by it - or feel that they have to "lose" something for men to once again take responsibility for our identities.
I Like the win-win scenerio with women also..
I was only making a joke, because I also noticed a long time ago, that you never know unless you ask, and then once you do ask, well, you asked for it.
OK, You open a door for a women, and one might sneer at you becuase you are such a chavaunist, or she might smile cause your a gentlemen. What is the problem with that? You choose to do what you please, and opening the door for the guy bringing in a heavy load at the store is not an insult to him, but an acknowledgment of the need of teamwork, humility and care.
Some folks get this, and some don't, but I never have given to much time discussing who had what strengths, it was more about our common goals and how we best fit the nessesary roles to achieve them.
I can"t see the pioneer women saying, "Ok the reason I don't have the big muscles are because you make me stay home and nurse the children, now that they are weaned you stay home and I will go plow the fields." Certainly there have been Women who have done that kind of work, and Men who have taken care of children, but the question remains, what is the difference, if we are on the same page?
I want to get more into this HHH, its worthy of converstion, but I am drawing a blank right now. The need of another women, is an interesting question, as you sigline suggests, but was it the explosion of the media, TV, the information highway that has changed the nature of how boys-to-men have developed? I think so, and in the nature of those mediums, the massive choices we all have now.
Ok starting to drift off again on that.. Gotta let all these thoughts congeal into something that makes sense...
What is seeming to happen, is the transition just stops at boys.
The shift of society has rendered men as an option, not a must.
I think it's great that society has opened up and women are beginning to get a fair shake.
In that fair shake, however, some feel that men have to be taken down a peg to make way for women.
We have also lost a lot of our "usefulness." Men like to be needed, and a strong modern woman doesn't "need" a man, and a lot of them are quite quick to tell you so.
Where does that leave us? Where does that leave marriage? Interdependence?
..We have also lost a lot of our "usefulness." Men like to be needed, and a strong modern woman doesn't "need" a man, and a lot of them are quite quick to tell you so.
Where does that leave us? Where does that leave marriage? Interdependence?
Those are questions worth asking.
I Agree, and I want to be wanted, need to be needed, just like any human being. I admit I am dependant on those emotions also, to be really connected to the world.
But if we can be replaced by machinery, as a paid for serviceman, bought amd pidgeonholed and controlled, of course, "understood" but not respected. with a pat on the butt "go back out and play now boys"....
Yeah been there, and when we get manipulated like that, or when it appears we are but we smell the rotteness of insincerity over time, all we can do is ask the truth, with an open mind and humble heart. If they pull the "I'm a dainty little flower and I am insulted by what you are implying Boo-Hoo crap" well, time to get out the tall boots and save the wristwatches.
Acting dumb may seem wise at the moment, but in the long run accually realizing we are dumb is the key to growth, not trying to work out some play where you can have a happy ending, according to your perception at the time you started the ball rolling. " He is perfect because" or "She is perfect because", is fine in the beggining, but when time goes by and things change, we still need to be perfect in our partners eyes, even if its a newly learned appreciation.
I allways liked a good question, just like good poetry and song lyrics, because they make you think.
The shift of society has rendered men as an option, not a must.
BS.
Would love to hear you expound. He was talking about society in general I think, not individuals.
Please give me examples I can beleive in, I really would like to beleive that men are not like worker drone bees, or accecpt that also, being given respect for the sacrifice for the hive and the queen.
Just what is our jobs as the male part of the marriage relationship? What roles are acceptable?
HHH, I don't know if men are an option or whatever. But I do know the sex-specific jobs aren't really there anymore. Well, except for certain sports and careers like firefighters in which you have to have a certain strength level in order to compete for a job. And there are prob far more men willing to go jump in the front lines in military fire fights than more women. However, that's a speculation on my part.
Are men an option and not a necessity? Not anymore than a woman is a necessity. Now my wife would say that she and the kids do absolutely need me. Would they die without me? No.
HHH, I would say there are prob just as many men letting themselves being emasculated by others as there are that are not letting themselves get dragged down.
I think you can spend too much time wondering where one fits into this world or one can decide what qualities they would like to exhibit and take those on.
Are men an option and not a necessity? Not anymore than a woman is a necessity. Now my wife would say that she and the kids do absolutely need me. Would they die without me? No...
Yes I can understand that, and of course I can tell my kids the same, and maybe even show them the same example, or express how they will allways be loved, and how much it matters to love yourself no matter what. Teach them self respect, how to handle failure and loss, when they have to experience them, which at some time if you love something, it is ineveitable that you might or have lost it. From arguments, freinds, fantasys like Santa and the tooth Fairy, to pets and family members, we all experience loss, yet life still goes on, and we teach them that it is good.
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
..HHH, I would say there are prob just as many men letting themselves being emasculated by others as there are that are not letting themselves get dragged down...
But then there are the politics and powers that be that you would think might help us, and instead work against us, when we finnally call on them for help.
After years of seeing my wife play with self-abuse, and watching my kids twist there heads sideways like a dog who is puzzled as she got even more lost, I finally called the authorities in to deal with her and help her, after we had an altercation at the house that got violent. I just wanted her to go to counselling, and get help for her addictions, and I didn't care how I looked,(Never did really when it came down to my family).
The female officer who showed up went in to talk to my wife, and I said fine, I would wait outside. When she came out and put handcuffs on me, becuase she bought W story, I said Ok, well as long as I have a chance to tell them the truth...
In the end, because drugs are so common here, and my WW was so good at slipping around the truth and the law, she never got treatment for her drug issues, and before you go there, no I had not ever given her reason to use.
I didn't care if she left really, even though the kids hearts would break, and what we had worked for would be ruined. I was really interested in her staying alive, and would even accepted counsel on how we could seperate...I just wanted the truth, and the system did not supply it. I played the game.
But I remember the days where I would have walked into a bar and started trouble to get my wife out of there, and stare down any guys hitting on her years ago. I thought I had gotten smarter and deeper than that, so I didn't go hunt down coke-head and slit his sleazy throat, or shoot him in his pukey little punk head, because yes, I was emasculated, but I knew how to get even.
Maybe I needed more testostrezone in my diet, so I could end up power-lifting at the local prison. Nah, I wasn't gonna put him in the ground, she would have found another one, and I would be in jail. Yeah, and my kids would be being taught about "non-violence" by seeing there Dad in Jail, and Mom would still be using after that, and for awhile,,, I would have been the problem..that was now gone away.
But the same feel-good drug emotionalism that infects our politics and law enforcement on the street, and in the courtrooms will still exist.
I really don't blame the Women Cop because all she had was what she saw, a hysterical woman and what seems like a guy who was calm and maybe she thought I was cold and didn't care, IDK. Personnaly it makes me want to blatently exhibit some kind of outward appearence that would make me seem less rough around the edges, so they could tell by sight that I was telling the truth, and my biggest concern was for someone to help us, to help me help her, that I had given up trying to hide it from everyone for her sake, and her reputation in the church......Lets add to that I accually had gone way to far with this woman, and should have taken the children way back in 1989 instead of comeing back. So the Cop was probably seeing a mess..
Ok so What are the authoritys men can go to to Man-Up?
HHH, I don't know if men are an option or whatever. But I do know the sex-specific jobs aren't really there anymore. Well, except for certain sports and careers like firefighters in which you have to have a certain strength level in order to compete for a job. And there are prob far more men willing to go jump in the front lines in military fire fights than more women. However, that's a speculation on my part.
Are men an option and not a necessity? Not anymore than a woman is a necessity. Now my wife would say that she and the kids do absolutely need me. Would they die without me? No.
HHH, I would say there are prob just as many men letting themselves being emasculated by others as there are that are not letting themselves get dragged down.
I think you can spend too much time wondering where one fits into this world or one can decide what qualities they would like to exhibit and take those on.
Look at 2 things here;
The divorce rate (which has actually reduced somewhat).
You don't have to answer that really, it was more of a question that was brought up to show that people mess up, even with the best intentions. I allready know all the "if i had onlys", and had counselled enough men is simular crisises.
Something is greatly lost in objectivity, and being able to see the right thing to do, when it happens to your family, when you think all the BS is handled, and God Himself hands you your azz. You second guess yourself, internally, things that were once settled become questions again, and you doubt yourself everywhere.
Thinking tonight about how I am still messed up over the tragedy, when my 20 yr old came by in a surprise visit. I found myself again on the defensive, trying to explain things, wanting to be his Dad, snivieling and making excuses again, worrying about him and his life. I am still so afraid that I have failed as a Father. Telling him things will be alright, trying to make sure he didn't feel alone, assuring him things will work out in time and with thought and good healthy habits.
But that is somewhat of an act, and they are smart enough to see through it, enough so they worry about me also. That, as a man, I cannot stand. Concerned sure, but I have allways projected confidance, and ability, aggressivly attacking negativity and deppression. This last two years it has been hard, and the ten years before were brutal, but I have to remember it wasn't all up to me.
Self sufficientcy, to me, is the mark of a Man, and that is sometimes a lonely road. I am a survivor, but i want more than to survive, I want to thrive, and I can only depend on truth and light, and the support of God, whoever reflects His truth I will trust, unless he falls away from it into something I can't respect. Like that sig line I see, "I can't do this alone, but I can do it"
Ticks me off, makes me want to fight, but I will never have enough confidance to make me believe I can do no wrong, ever again. There just is not enough time left in my life to, "fix" it all, and prove that to myself either. I am unbalanced, internally as well as spiritually, and yes I am getting better, but not fast enough for me.
I think thats what God was trying to show me, that I can't believe what I feel about myself, or what others project because of thier own opinions and experience. I don't have to trust them either, and Jesus don't depend on them either.
Brings me back to the scripture, "By thier fruit you will know them" There is an urgency inside that wants to practice patience and wisdom, but those two things don't fit together well do they? Urgency and patience? I need good men who can set strong examples that I can model myself after. I allways will need a Hero.
I'll wrestle with this tommorow with the therapist. Tonight I will just have to quell my emotions that tell me to stop F'n around, and be happy I still have a chance to do what I can.
Ever see the movie, "the Edge"? I just had a thought about getting kicked out of the "Man Thread" because I was talking about feelings. Lol. I allways respected Anthony Hopkins character in that flick, and Alec Baldwin was the loser.
Remember when Baldwin suggested Hopkins and everyone could get in a hot-tub and talk about thier "feelings" in a sarcastic tone?
Tell me I'm not that guy ok?
My W used to say I reminded her of Hopkins in that flick, and trusted me in the wilderness and in surviving. Oh well...I could expound but...
On the tax return, I was proud to check off those that were my dependants, that didn't mean I didn't depend on them also.
Dr H. has an article he published recently about how the "Co-dependancy movement is ruining marriages". He explains healthy co-dependancy, which I can assume has a lot in common with inter-dependance.
We are all connected in some way, how we treat ourselves and each other makes us dependant. There I go again sounding like a Hippie...
Ever see the movie, "the Edge"? I just had a thought about getting kicked out of the "Man Thread" because I was talking about feelings. Lol. I allways respected Anthony Hopkins character in that flick, and Alec Baldwin was the loser.
Remember when Baldwin suggested Hopkins and everyone could get in a hot-tub and talk about thier "feelings" in a sarcastic tone?
Tell me I'm not that guy ok?
My W used to say I reminded her of Hopkins in that flick, and trusted me in the wilderness and in surviving. Oh well...I could expound but...
Actually, this whole "men don't talk about their feelings" is something I hope we can overcome in this one little space created here.
Who can we turn to as experts? I don't know. I'm looking, and hope others bring what they can to the table.
Maybe creatine might not suit someones goals. But the rest of it, I'm not sure how you can dis on a macronutrient (protein) and getting stronger and in better shape (super sets/deadlifts)
I wasn't aware that I had disrespected them, just that they weren't for me. I watch what I eat (I cook and bake a lot of my own foods), I have a weight bench in my basement, and I like being fit.
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Actually if you were to exchange 3 pounds of fat for 3 pounds of muscle and use deadlifts to get sronger, you'd increase your pace and recover faster. Crossfit athletes (as an example) deadlift all the time and enter marathons quite often and typically do better than those that just train for marathons. I'm not sure why running marathons and weight training or minding your diet can't be inclusive of each other.
The problem is that muscle weighs more than fat. It's pretty darn tough to exchange three pounds of one for the other.
I'm not a big guy, but I used to have large thighs. I routinely would leg press 680+ lbs. at the gym. My thighs are smaller now as they have adapted to the requirements I place on them.
On a side note, the first marathon I ever ran, just a couple of hundred yards from the finish, I passed a guy who looked like he was military: buff, short hair, etc. Just as I passed him, he fell to his knees and began puking. I was amazed -- I wasn't rough and buff like this guy, but I sure finished ahead of him...
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
I linked to a site that endorses getting stronger, looking better, being in better, shape, etc and you somehow think that I think running marathons is unmanly. I'll have to say that you had to really reach for this. But it's okay if you want to jump to conclusions and come up with a counter attack for an attack that I never made.
Perhaps you're being too sensitive, k_t. I only said (or at least tried to say) that each of us has a different idea of what constitutes manliness. Bodybuilding may fulfill that ideal for some (although I personally know prize-winning competitive woman bodybuilder!) but my point was that I don't need or want someone else to define for me what I should be/look/act like in order to "be a man."
As I mentioned in my last entry, I have become increasingly incensed with the manner in which men are portrayed in the media � especially in advertising. My latest beef is with a Coors Light commercial ostensibly promoting their new �ventilating can�.
It starts with a guy sitting with his female significant other getting a cell phone call. He turns to his lady and says that his friend needs to vent. She, quite sympathetically, tells him he should immediately go over to his buddy and allow him to vent. The next scene is the guy arriving at a friend�s house with a six-pack and a big grin on his face telling his host that he has brought the new �venting� can. He then is shown sitting with several guys, drinking beer out of the new can, watching sports and calling his lady to tell her that he needs to be there longer because his friend must vent some more.
Let me explain my outrage. First message � men must get permission from their female companions to be playful with other men. Translation, �Mommy, can I go out to play.� Furthermore, since permission will probably not be granted unless you are a good boy and done your homework a guy has to come up with a ruse to escape. Second message � venting is a female behavior and by using this word he can con her by appealing to her feminine sensibilities. We all know that women support each other by creating a space for sharing concerns but men don�t do this. They just hang out in front of the tube drinking beer.
Thank you Coor�s and your ad agency for trivializing masculine energy. You are shaping a cultural view of masculinity that diminishes us and promotes stereotypical thinking about masculinity. Men need to learn how to honestly communicate their needs to their female partners in a respectful manner that does not marginalize those needs just because they are not always shared or understood by their companions. Being playful in the company of other men is part of who we are and we do not need to apologize for that desire. In addition, men need to embrace that fact that they can come together and share some of their frustrations and concerns in a non-shaming environment and not consider themselves less of a man. By denying this opportunity, men become further isolated and resort to destructive behaviors that negatively affect themselves and those closest to them.
I would hope that advertisers targeting men would learn to appreciate the best of masculinity rather than crude misperceptions. Let me know what YOU think about men in the media.
Richard Horowitz Past-President, Men Mentoring Men
Doing more digging, more searching. I find a site calling itself the "Men's Issues Blog."
The banner across the top is the bottom half of a woman in a bikini, and the image for the first article is a woman about 3/4 dressed covering her breast.
REALLY?
The front page contains no less than 3 articles on "penis enlargement," and a dating article titled "I'm getting laid tonight."
Tell your doctor you want a prescription for test 250 mg twice a week.
As far as behavior and cognition, exogenous testosterone doesn't really show a lot of results.
The clinical trials were run to see if there was a link between aggression and T.
The findings were the reverse; being aggressive or competing raised testosterone levels, but exogenous supplementation of T did not increase aggressiveness - but it did increase status-seeking behavior.
Exogenous supplementation of T can also lead to "T resistance," as having more than needed will lead to desensitization of receptors.
What is a problem is lowering of testosterone levels - or "manopause." In this case, supplementation of T can help restore aggression and motivation to levels coinciding with those which were baseline before the loss of hormonal levels.
Don't waste your money on the supplment if are young and healthy. Succeed, and your levels will rise naturally.
(Side note, married men; your testosterone levels will link with your wife's hormonal levels and menstrual cycle - much like how women of age in the same household will "match up" cycles)
Tell your doctor you want a prescription for test 250 mg twice a week.
As far as behavior and cognition, exogenous testosterone doesn't really show a lot of results.
The clinical trials were run to see if there was a link between aggression and T.
The findings were the reverse; being aggressive or competing raised testosterone levels, but exogenous supplementation of T did not increase aggressiveness - but it did increase status-seeking behavior.
Exogenous supplementation of T can also lead to "T resistance," as having more than needed will lead to desensitization of receptors.
What is a problem is lowering of testosterone levels - or "manopause." In this case, supplementation of T can help restore aggression and motivation to levels coinciding with those which were baseline before the loss of hormonal levels.
Don't waste your money on the supplment if are young and healthy. Succeed, and your levels will rise naturally.
(Side note, married men; your testosterone levels will link with your wife's hormonal levels and menstrual cycle - much like how women of age in the same household will "match up" cycles)
ITA..Thanks for this HHH
I am just a natural guy, if I work out and take vitimen supplements, and watch my fuel going in, I can expect good results. I would rather take supplements only after I do this first, and there has been a proven need for them. That goes for vitimens too.
My son swears by this guy who specializes in this feild, when I can afford it, I plan to see him.
I have a full time job now handleing my health and nutrition between diabetes, age, and broken up body. I appreciate all the info here. Thanks Boys
Oh, and, there's no way a doctor would rx that much test to anyone. Not that I haven't tried to convince my doctor it'd be a great idea. Her answer "but your test levels are normal. "
Son doesn't remember. From what I do know about blood chemistry, and nutrition, and its just academic, and its more of how he deals with it than anything else. He constantly measures and taylors diet to your needs. That is important, because as you work out more, your needs change, until where you are where you want to be in performance, and you can match up your dietary needs.
Its a lot of work and he is expensive, but you get what you pay for.
to me being a good man means taking care of family and myself in whatever way possible whether that means working 60-70 hrs a week or staying home with the kids, to me being a man also means being being involved with your family and knowing what they need emotionally (im still trying to improve in all of these areas)
one thing for me personally, any man that would hit a woman is no man at all IMO he is a punk trying to act like a man. but that is how i was raised and i still believe it.
to me being a good man means taking care of family and myself in whatever way possible whether that means working 60-70 hrs a week or staying home with the kids, to me being a man also means being being involved with your family and knowing what they need emotionally (im still trying to improve in all of these areas)
one thing for me personally, any man that would hit a woman is no man at all IMO he is a punk trying to act like a man. but that is how i was raised and i still believe it.
to me being a good man means taking care of family and myself in whatever way possible whether that means working 60-70 hrs a week or staying home with the kids, to me being a man also means being being involved with your family and knowing what they need emotionally (im still trying to improve in all of these areas)
one thing for me personally, any man that would hit a woman is no man at all IMO he is a punk trying to act like a man. but that is how i was raised and i still believe it.
Thanks for sharing!
You bring up a good point; man as provider. Working 60-70 hours a week?
Most of us would do so gladly to provide for our family financially, because we believe that is our job.
However, in doing this to be man as provider, we sacrifice man as husband and father.
That's one of the things that is mentioned in the "Generation of Men Raised by Women" article - that the work ethic that takes us out of the home takes us also out of the family.
Do we need to provide? Yes. But, we also need to provide love, support, and presence. Financial support is not enough to make us absentee husbands and fathers as a trade-off.
Do we need to provide? Yes. But, we also need to provide love, support, and presence. Financial support is not enough to make us absentee husbands and fathers as a trade-off.
Yes ITA, and wise people live within thier means and provide time to be with the ones they are working for.
It is sad that people forget this, and go for the glitz of a new car or house, somehow thinking status will make thier marriage better at the cost of thier marriage.
But that is what happens to many, and when the money is finnally won, and they have all the "stuff", they are married to someone they don't know anymore.
Some of the people out there have had to struggle to survive, but yet many make poor judgements with money, and domestic realities.
I blame the media and advertisements, but blame won't keep me warm at night.
i also said that being home with the family is important also there are times when i have had to work alot of hours to cover the bills etc etc but as soon as we were caught up i would cut my hours back down and try to spend time with family.
working and having a family is like a balancing act too much of this and not enough of that can ruin a marriage or any relationship.
both of us work and we can barely make ends meet especially now with gas prices food diapers formula etc etc
to me being a good man means taking care of family and myself in whatever way possible whether that means working 60-70 hrs a week or staying home with the kids, to me being a man also means being being involved with your family and knowing what they need emotionally (im still trying to improve in all of these areas)
one thing for me personally, any man that would hit a woman is no man at all IMO he is a punk trying to act like a man. but that is how i was raised and i still believe it.
Thanks for sharing!
You bring up a good point; man as provider. Working 60-70 hours a week?
Most of us would do so gladly to provide for our family financially, because we believe that is our job.
However, in doing this to be man as provider, we sacrifice man as husband and father.
That's one of the things that is mentioned in the "Generation of Men Raised by Women" article - that the work ethic that takes us out of the home takes us also out of the family.
Do we need to provide? Yes. But, we also need to provide love, support, and presence. Financial support is not enough to make us absentee husbands and fathers as a trade-off.
This was a problem for me a couple of years ago and almost sunk my marriage. I was on about 60% travel for [big defense company] when I had been promised 25% travel, which my wife and I agreed to.
Fortunately I was able to get out of there last summer and go back to work for [small defense company] that I had helped found back in SC, working remotely from an office in Dallas. I still travel, but it's like 4 days a month and is planned weeks in advance.
Balancing work and family has always been a challenge for me. I take my role as sole provider very seriously and also have a high degree of pride in my work. Fortunately, my wife is very big on family dinnertimes, so I'm almost always home in time for dinner.
One thing that bothers me about myself is that I see going home for dinner as supporting my wife (SAHM) in terms of getting everybody through dinner, bath, stories, bed, and cleanup/prep for next day - rather than going home to spend time with my kids.
Maybe this is only because during the week I only see them when they're tired and squirrelly...I'm not sure. But I do feel disconnected from my kids a lot. I've always been fine at the mechanical aspects of childcare - preparing meals, changing diapers, bathing, first aid, keeping up with medications and so on. I enjoy reading stories to DS3 and helping DS7 with his homework. I just don't feel - nurturing?
I wonder if it's how I was brought up. My dad was career army and retired when I was 8, my mom was a SAHM and pretty much ran the house and all things concerning the kids. My dad wasn't distant or unavailable, I guess aloof is the better term for it. I didn't really get to know my dad until I was 10 or so.
i also said that being home with the family is important also there are times when i have had to work alot of hours to cover the bills etc etc but as soon as we were caught up i would cut my hours back down and try to spend time with family.
working and having a family is like a balancing act too much of this and not enough of that can ruin a marriage or any relationship.
both of us work and we can barely make ends meet especially now with gas prices food diapers formula etc etc
Don't get me wrong, it's not being critical of you. It's a mindset we, as men, get into.
I know when I worked at the grocery store, my W got frustrated as heck at how "hard" I worked.
I was pretty much the "go-to" guy for the store, and anytime any gap needed to be filled, I was the one to get called in to cover it. Whatever needed to be done, I knew how to do it.
Reaching that balance is part of MB. Priority #1, above all else, is making sure there is the proper amount of UA time for you and your spouse; 20+ hours a week if you are in crisis, 15+ hours a week to maintain. If FC is a high need for either of you, 15+ hours a week need to be committed to that. Combine the to, and you easily get 30+ hours per week that has to be prioritized to spend with your family.
Bit,
Have you ever thought about setting aside days or times for each one of your kids individually for "Daddy dates?" I try to do this with my DD's - once a week they get to go to lunch and/or a movie with dad, and they get that time to have my full time and attention.
Have you ever thought about setting aside days or times for each one of your kids individually for "Daddy dates?" I try to do this with my DD's - once a week they get to go to lunch and/or a movie with dad, and they get that time to have my full time and attention.
I did that with DS7 for a while when he was younger. The problem now is scheduling - I have some flexibility in my work day, and I structure it to get UA time with my W.
Part of the issue is that I don't feel right taking one of the kids to do something special and leave my wife at home with the other two - her whole week is like that with one at school and the other two home. I try to get her an afternoon off every weekend, or at least a few hours.
That balance thing again. Just when we get everything figured out, something changes. We're learning to POJA the schedule; actually we did that last night. She agreed to review the schedule once a week, both to review the previous week to see how we did, and for the upcoming week.
It's a good suggestion and I will talk to W about it. DS7 has been itching to go fishing; the problem he'll face is that it requires sitting still and being quiet for more than 5 minutes at a time...
Have you ever thought about setting aside days or times for each one of your kids individually for "Daddy dates?" I try to do this with my DD's - once a week they get to go to lunch and/or a movie with dad, and they get that time to have my full time and attention.
I did that with DS7 for a while when he was younger. The problem now is scheduling - I have some flexibility in my work day, and I structure it to get UA time with my W.
Part of the issue is that I don't feel right taking one of the kids to do something special and leave my wife at home with the other two - her whole week is like that with one at school and the other two home. I try to get her an afternoon off every weekend, or at least a few hours.
That balance thing again. Just when we get everything figured out, something changes. We're learning to POJA the schedule; actually we did that last night. She agreed to review the schedule once a week, both to review the previous week to see how we did, and for the upcoming week.
It's a good suggestion and I will talk to W about it. DS7 has been itching to go fishing; the problem he'll face is that it requires sitting still and being quiet for more than 5 minutes at a time...
Yeah. I remember going fishing with my dad drove me nuts when I was young... until we were bringing in fish! That always made it more enjoyable.
Definitely agree that "Daddy dates" shouldn't interfere with UA time, or lump more work on the W.
Maybe a sitter for the littlest, a trip to the day spa for W, and a day at the park for Dad and the others?
Maybe a sitter for the littlest, a trip to the day spa for W, and a day at the park for Dad and the others?
I wish I could fund that every week! We're still trying to pay off the last of the credit cards and fund 529 plans for the kids.
I'm sure me taking DS3 somewhere and the W staying home with DS7 and DD1 wouldn't be a problem - DS3 is the instigator/troublemaker, and getting him out of the house would be a break for my wife in itself.
I emailed my W about it; if she likes the idea we'll brainstorm ways to make it happen. We're learning to do that too. With summer coming we'll have more flexibility in the kids' schedules.
Maybe a sitter for the littlest, a trip to the day spa for W, and a day at the park for Dad and the others?
I wish I could fund that every week! We're still trying to pay off the last of the credit cards and fund 529 plans for the kids.
I'm sure me taking DS3 somewhere and the W staying home with DS7 and DD1 wouldn't be a problem - DS3 is the instigator/troublemaker, and getting him out of the house would be a break for my wife in itself.
I emailed my W about it; if she likes the idea we'll brainstorm ways to make it happen. We're learning to do that too. With summer coming we'll have more flexibility in the kids' schedules.
Awesome!
Your comment about not feeling "nurturing" really resonates.
I think we tend to get so tangled up in our other roles and tasks that we forget how to invoke that feeling, if we ever knew how.
I think, though, that it can boil down to things that are so seeming small and simple that we overlook them.
You mentioned reading to your kids. That's awesome.
We need to play with our children, too.
Now, does anyone have any clue how you play with a 13-year-old girl?
I apparently do not produce additional Y-chromsomes...
I think, though, that it can boil down to things that are so seeming small and simple that we overlook them.
You mentioned reading to your kids. That's awesome.
We need to play with our children, too.
Now, does anyone have any clue how you play with a 13-year-old girl?
I apparently do not produce additional Y-chromsomes...
(really, I'm giggling on the inside)
Yeah we're very big on books for the kids. We read to them as soon as they're receptive - even just alphabet/number/color/shape books are fine, just to get them used to the idea. DS7 is now a voracious reader; his teacher actually uses reading time as a reward for him. DS3 will bring out a stack of books at bedtime, and DD1.5 is getting into it too. I will miss the day when they won't want to be read to anymore.
My parents never played with us (my two sisters and I). I asked my mom about it a few years ago and she said it wasn't a parent's job to play with the kids - feed, clothe, bathe, cuddle, talk to, provide with toys, educate, guide, protect, love - yes, simply play with - no. Mom was of the mind that the adults need to be focused on doing the adult things to keep the household going. DS7 was about 18 months old and was after us incessantly to play with him; that's when I asked my mom about it. I had never ever thought of it as unusual or troubling before that.
My W's parents never played with her or her sister either because they were working all the time. My W also projects her issues with her distant father on me sometimes (not a DJ, she openly admits to it).
So I am conflicted about whether or not I should play with the kids. I wasn't brought up that way and I seem to have turned out okay. On the other hand I want to be a "good dad" but am trying to sort out exactly what that means - kind of like the "good man" thread. I've always been the sort to independently synthesize my belief system, so I'm not going to accept the mass media definition, but I can't base it all on how my dad was either. I love and miss him dearly but he did have his faults, and this is a different age than what I grew up in.
Funny, everyone I know tells me I'm a "good dad", but I don't usually feel like one.
WRT your DD13 - I've heard that's a tough age. One foot in childhood and the other in young adulthood, and they seem to lean one way or the other depending on which way the wind blows. Does she like to run or play sports? Video games? Board games?
Wait, I know! You guys could have a Twilight movie marathon! We need a 'sparkle' smiley...
Oh, God. That one W can share w/ the girls. I suffer through it to enjoy it w/ W (subconsciously, I hear Mel wagging her finger).
I think that the problem is when you get into that mindset; "The time comes to put away childish things."
Play is an important part of human development - we learn to problem solve, interact, plan.
I'm thinking it doesn't have to be too crazy. She may be a teenage girl, but I think she's neither too old, nor to girly, to go and play catch with dad.
I understand the struggle, and I think that a lot of fathers go through it. We want to be good fathers, but we usually only have our own father (or lack of), or our grandfathers. Sometimes, they aren't the best models, either.
I think you should treat your 13yo girl like you want boys to treat her--be interested, find out what she likes, and do that with her. I liked to dress up and attend plays at that age, and also goof off at Dunkin Donuts in grown-up clothes.
Don't try to do the things she likes to do with her girlfriends. That's just weird.
Manly men are confident men. People are attracted to men who project confidence. Sadly, many men these days lack any confidence at all. Some mope around with their head down, wallowing in self pity. Others confuse manly confidence with boyish cockiness. These men have confused confidence with being a [censored].
Manly confidence is quiet; it�s unpretentious. But when a man walks into a room who has acquired this confidence, people can feel it.
The steps below will get you on the right track for increasing your confidence. Implement them into your life and you�ll see results quickly.
Confidence can be a sneaky thing, playing hide and seek throughout life. No, it�s not something we�re born with and never lose. It fluctuates. Our confidence can become low at the start or end of a big project, if we�re nervous or feeling deflated, or after a setback such as a botched relationship or business venture.
If you�re seeking confidence, particularly if you�ve had it once and it doesn�t seem to be around anymore, what do you do?
One man�s example shows confidence can definitely be regained if it�s been lost. Sergeant Darrell �Shifty� Powers started life as a confident young man. One of the original Band of Brothers, Shifty was one of only two men in an elite company of 140 soldiers who initially achieved the designation of �expert marksman.� When it came to shooting rifles�and hitting precisely what needed to be hit�Shifty�s self-assurance was equal to none.
Yet at the end of the HBO miniseries Band of Brothers, when the men are shown reflecting on their experiences, Shifty (the real man, not the actor) made this startling statement:
�You thought you could do just about anything. [But] after the war was over and you came back out, why, you lost a lot of that. Or at least I did. I lost a lot of confidence.�
I think you should treat your 13yo girl like you want boys to treat her--be interested, find out what she likes, and do that with her. I liked to dress up and attend plays at that age, and also goof off at Dunkin Donuts in grown-up clothes.
Don't try to do the things she likes to do with her girlfriends. That's just weird.
Right?
She's hit that "too-cool teenager" stage. What she likes to mine 'ol Dad for is jokes and music.
She's always been a tad precocious... always a challenge. The opposite of the younger two.
Oldest two daughters-take them to concerts, movies, occassional trips to the mall for some shopping. Oldest daughter loves mangas and comic books (which I do also) so we go to comic book shops together. We also play video games together. My oldest daughter always tags along when I play indoor soccer.
Son 8-wrestle, play video games, build legos, go poster shopping, play catch, play soccer
Daughter 4-tea time, build legos, help dress dolls, and she loves it when I watch iCarly with her
Son 2-loves to wrestle and he loves to sit on riding toys and be pushed around the house
Son 8 likes fishing and camping but I hate both. Mom takes him fishing. I refuse to go camping unless it's at the summer lake house (which isn't really camping).
Now, does anyone have any clue how you play with a 13-year-old girl?
Do you have the xbox? Get Dance Central and Kinect! It's a big hit with my daughter (15) and niece (13). I did not think I would like it because I am not a big dancer...but it is so much fun...
Oldest two daughters-take them to concerts, movies, occassional trips to the mall for some shopping. Oldest daughter loves mangas and comic books (which I do also) so we go to comic book shops together. We also play video games together. My oldest daughter always tags along when I play indoor soccer.
Son 8-wrestle, play video games, build legos, go poster shopping, play catch, play soccer
Daughter 4-tea time, build legos, help dress dolls, and she loves it when I watch iCarly with her
Son 2-loves to wrestle and he loves to sit on riding toys and be pushed around the house
Son 8 likes fishing and camping but I hate both. Mom takes him fishing. I refuse to go camping unless it's at the summer lake house (which isn't really camping).
Both of my older DD's LOVED to wrestle when they were little. DD11 still loves to. DD13 is the challenge.
I just don't "get it." She's "too cool." (or girly, or something).
Really lovin this Thread now, getting down to the real man stuff we all struggle with. I can relate to many of the issues disscussed here.
Not feeling nurturing enough, working to many hours just making ends meet, how it was with my Dad and how times have changed. All of them.
I made a comment earlier about blaming the media, but it was only general about motivation really, as in what can be our motivating personal peer factors and influences around us daily when we are likely to have our "Ah-ah!" moments. That was really motivational influences in advertising and how we seem to be bombarded with guidance in 500 different directions from 1 Million gurus out here.
But maybe this point I have noticed is being overlooked. Just an observation I have noticed. Some what I would call "enemys" to the nuclear family, and maybe somewhat linked to the book and idea of ,"Plantation america".
Young people since sometime in the 80s have been able to get into credit debt so deep,(18 years old) that they will be paying off that stupid stereo system they bought for thier crib until way past time to accually buy a crib for thier child at 25.
I remember when I was a kid, if two parents worked, they had extra money. now if they don't work, they have a hard time surviving.
What has happened here? It seems that the cost of living has rose way above the average wage increase. Inflation has skyrocketed, and the two income household is now the norm.
We can blame some of the problem, some, on the poor choices we make, but there also must be some loss of respect for the average middle class family across the board.
The wisdom we were taught as children, and the words of, "Work hard to provide and it will work out", is not working, but we are working longer hours for less money at the expense of the moral statutes we are trying to work for.
The truth remains the same though, as the wolf is allways at the door, seeking to destroy and cull out the weak. The family is still the weak point that is allways attacked, as the wolf seeks out the young and weak in this battle of "survival of the fittest"
I myself am not a Machevelian<sp> type, and I don't beleive in "the end justifies the means" I chose to work hard and learn from my mistakes, but it was a challange to be with and try to build a family with someone who was, lets say, less able to hold those standards. Its fine that there are people out there that sold, "Pet Rocks" in the 70s and they did it because they needed to provide for thier familys, but thats not me, I can't function that way, and I didn't believe in creating an enviroment that made me that desparate either.
Its important that you pick someone with the same work ethic, if you want to succeed with a family. My late W was one who would cut someones throat, then justify it later, and play dumb about it. "Well of course it was nessesary at the time and "God", understands".
Understanding and self-delusion at the expense of accountability being two different things. You don't create a situation that demands desparate emergency help and then expect someone to bail you out. But thats a whole different subject..
But it relates to some degree. What is it we really need? What part of our soul did we sell to elevate ourselves above others? To some percieved place in our own minds? Where do we get the idea we wont be safe or happy unless we have X or Y, or have the wife with the big boobs or the husband with the big bucks? What form of insecurity has taken the average working class couple over?
Now we work and still do not appreciate what we have, wanting more and more, because we are afraid of being fools, and not getting our share, when we have it all right in front of us allready many times.
The bombardment of advertising and media crap seeming to point to making our life better can be so hypnotysing, and we are fighting a losing battle with our kids too, because what is important forced on them every day, from there peers and the TV, as we are working to provide sometimes the basic needs, and are not there to help them think and make good choices.
I fell into this trap also, but allways told my kids the truth, and because we did not prosper monitarily, they were forced to think and make judgements. They are good kids but still have to survive in the world we are leaving them, and I can only pray that the standards I did manage to live for and stand for, will keep them safe and help them make good choices.
I would rather that I has made better choices, and refused to go along with compulsion of making the grade, or let my late W and her issues get in the way and give me an excuse for working so many hours, and just surviving. It what I was taught, ingrained into what it was to be a man, to an extreme that doesn't work even at a basic level of survival anymore in our culture.
The hope is that we can adapt, and not lose the basic need to work for our families, without neglecting them, or missing the time we have to enjoy them. Its still work, as defined as something you must learn how to do, with instruction and humility, from an authority that knows how to do it. A Master so to speak, a teacher, and to let them have the authority as you trust them. Those rewards are great, and sometimes cannot even be measured in human terms, certainly not in monitary terms, even though we will allways try.
So What is that authority? Does our leadership in this country exemplify it? Who or what do we turn to and believe in? I don't know the practical political answer, but I know my personal answer, and there will allways be men out here who will believe that they are supposed to work, and thats right of course. Lets hope they remember what they are working for, and what is really preciuos in life...People.
I think you should treat your 13yo girl like you want boys to treat her--be interested, find out what she likes, and do that with her. I liked to dress up and attend plays at that age, and also goof off at Dunkin Donuts in grown-up clothes.
Don't try to do the things she likes to do with her girlfriends. That's just weird.
Its said that a boys first GF is thier Mom, and that DD need a lot of the same treatment from thier Dad to develop in how they should be treated.
I know my Dad messed up my sisters life, even though my sister is an awesome survivor, she could have done so much more with her life.
Now if I am anything as a man, and I am not talking about work ethic, I am talking about socially and morally, because both my parents were workers, I give credit to my Mom.
But my life was unbalanced, because we need both parental roles in place to grow up healthy.
My DD is pretty well balanced in her relationships with guys, and my DSs seem to be confused and somewhat afraid. Its just how it worked out. I am there for them and constantly available to help, because you never stop being a parent, just like God never stops being there for me. All I can do is give them the truth, and hope they see it..
I agree with CWMI, be the man you want her to end up with, and the boy you would want her to play with. I don't have a problem with playing anything with my DGD, and I go down to her level, finding what she is into interesting as I can, but I don't give up my position of authority, she knows I am the boss and she counts on that also.
Both of my older DD's LOVED to wrestle when they were little. DD11 still loves to. DD13 is the challenge.
I just don't "get it." She's "too cool." (or girly, or something).
HHH, I just noticed you have 3 DDs, you poor man lol.
My DGD is a "girly girl" and her Mom, my DD, was a Tomboy. It funny to us all, as DGD also has some Tomboy attributes, and my DD insisted she have a "toolbox" also, because she doesn't want her DD typecast.
Waiting for the day when DGD,3, is in the back yard blowing up the dolls and princesses with some kinda alien "death-ray". She allready flies around the yard with her electric fourwheeler,(Barbie of course) with amazing skill we can guess comes from her Daddy the BMX dude.
It wonderful watching her grow up, having all the things I wanted for my DD, and couldn't afford. But yet I find myself useful as DD parent and DGD grampa.
Three DDs, well I have heard this is tough to handle, with all the emotional stuff. Far as I can see they are blessed to have you as thier Daddy.
OK Man hug I guess. If thats allowed on this thread. Lol
HHH aint the only one with three daughters. I have 2 teenage daughters...13 and 15. And the 3rd being 4.
Yeah but I don't feel sorry for you...
Seriously though, I read what you do with your kids too, and I was jealous...OK..not really, I thought it was cool.
I only had one DD, and she was tough while yet being smart and sensitive. I don't have a clue to how it would be with 3. My DD is also a looker like her Mom, but reminds me of my Mom also, and my sister.
What an awesome gift of responsibility it is to have a child, and test our meddle as a man. Started with me at 19, and it has allways been my biggest priority to be a good husband and father when the time came to be. The time is when they are born though, and it becomes about them untill they are on there own.
Now at 54, I am tested with letting them go, and still I am allways around to help where I can. You never stop worrying about them, and never want them to worry about you at the same time. So its important that you keep going and set examples for them still, as I am working on.
You never stop being a Father, and thats what they count on, even if they don't admit it or see it, until they have their own.
I have heard it said, that if there is one member of the two that is gonna play the most important role in raising the children, as in stability, it is the father.
I am talking about stability, ability to survive, strength and security, protection and inner emotional issues.
I can only think that it is true because if we can keep our stuff together, the example is strongest.
We are the strong ones physically, and the aggressors naturally speaking. If we find them important enough to go after and love and care for, then there is love in action.
(This is why God is refered to in the masculine sense btw, because he goes after us to restore us and teach us when we screw up)
Of course there are women who display those masculine traits more than men do also. Maybe that is because of the humility accepted more easily with them, but it is a powerful force none the less.
Hats off to you KT, and any father willing to serve thier children and to provide them with life in every sense.
Hope this doesn't get me kicked off the guy thread, but I gotta admit that D14 the one who was able to get the part reattached. She could get her head underneath the console to see where the missing part fit into 2 holes in the fixture. So the good news is that my cup holder is good as new!
The other good news is that while I was admiring her handiwork, I discovered there is a power plug all the way down at the bottom of the dash by the floor. So now my 3 way 12v power adapter does does not have to plug into the ashtray socket. So it no longer blocks the pile of quarters in the ashtray. Win - win.
Why should this get you kicked off the "guys thread?"
To me, part of being a man is being able to admire someone else's work and skill, being able to accept when you're wrong, and knowing when to be silent when you really want to blurt something out (I'm still working on this one).
Being a guy doesn't have to mean always being right, always being No. #1, and always being stoic, unfeeling or uncaring.
Being a man means being comfortable in one's own skin. Being a man means not having to live one's life trying to live up to someone else's expectations.
Hope this doesn't get me kicked off the guy thread, but I gotta admit that D14 the one who was able to get the part reattached. She could get her head underneath the console to see where the missing part fit into 2 holes in the fixture. So the good news is that my cup holder is good as new!
The other good news is that while I was admiring her handiwork, I discovered there is a power plug all the way down at the bottom of the dash by the floor. So now my 3 way 12v power adapter does does not have to plug into the ashtray socket. So it no longer blocks the pile of quarters in the ashtray. Win - win.
Those accessory ports can be weird, though. Some of them are not switched with the ignition, so anything with a draw will continue to draw even when the car is off.
I had a radio adapter for our MP3 players in my 'Gator that did that, and I just didn't get why my battery kept draining.
I unplugged the radio adapter, no more battery drain.
Why should this get you kicked off the "guys thread?"
To me, part of being a man is being able to admire someone else's work and skill, being able to accept when you're wrong, and knowing when to be silent when you really want to blurt something out (I'm still working on this one).
Being a guy doesn't have to mean always being right, always being No. #1, and always being stoic, unfeeling or uncaring.
Being a man means being comfortable in one's own skin. Being a man means not having to live one's life trying to live up to someone else's expectations.
And remember Fred being a man means we understand that everyone around us is inferior, and we are confidant enough in that fact that we can allow them to have a few victorys at our expense once in awhile..Lol..
I agree with you Fred, and we must be constantly aware that we find our greatest strength in our weakness also.
Why should this get you kicked off the "guys thread?"
To me, part of being a man is being able to admire someone else's work and skill, being able to accept when you're wrong, and knowing when to be silent when you really want to blurt something out (I'm still working on this one).
Being a guy doesn't have to mean always being right, always being No. #1, and always being stoic, unfeeling or uncaring.
Being a man means being comfortable in one's own skin. Being a man means not having to live one's life trying to live up to someone else's expectations.
Humility.
I'd rather be wrong and happy, than right and miserable.
We�ve talked a lot about the Nice Guy Syndrome here on AoM. You know the guy. Big time people pleaser, always puts others before himself, lets people walk all over him. Heck, maybe you�re that guy. These so-called Nice Guys might appear happy on the outside, but on the inside they�re feeling burnt out, resentful, and depressed.
One trap that a lot of �Nice Guys� fall into is always saying �Yes!� to every request that comes their way. These �yes men� are afraid that people will stop liking them if they say no. By saying yes to everything, the Nice Guy piles on the obligations and deadlines to his already busy schedule. He ends up spreading himself so thin that he can�t even fulfill the obligations he said yes to in the first place, which in a sadly funny, yet totally predictable turn of events causes people to resent Mr. Nice Guy- the very result Mr. Nice Guy was trying to avoid by saying yes in the first place!
A man firmly sets his core values, goals, and priorities, makes time to tend to them, and says no to things that conflict with what�s important. He doesn�t lose sight of the best, by pursuing the endless opportunities for the merely good.
What Nice Guys don�t realize is that it�s possible to have this kind of backbone and be able to say no while maintaining positive relationships with others. In fact, it�s even possible to say no to people and leave them thinking you�re a pretty swell guy.
If you�ve been having trouble saying no to people, we�ve provided some pointers on how to do it without coming off as a cad.
Well, gentleman. This thread can't be all about me, or it really fails in purpose.
I suppose, for me, discussion, debate, input is important. I strive to be wrong, because in every incorrect observation and conclusion is an opportunity to learn and grow. However, I'm a PITA because I have a high standard for being proven wrong.
And then? And then I don't think about it, things roll around in the 'ol noggin for a while, and then a random connection is made, and the next stage of development is began.
So... synapse fired, connection was made;
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Have you noticed how whiney that Aaron Lewis is on a lot of his songs?
Don't want to pick on you, KT. The statement just kind of rolled around in the noggin. I've often felt the same way about Staind (particularly after "Break the Cycle").
Awesome video HHH, I remember when My fathers mother passed away. My Mom and Dad had allready divorced and were uncomfortable around each other, and I allready had been married once and seperated and back together at this time. It was a strange time for me as well as for my marriage, but I had allready been a better husband and father far as I could see, than my Dad had been.
At the graveside, my role was showed to me that I had not realised I had carried most my life. This was before I had heard of dysfunctioal families and how it effects children. My Father and Mother rushed to me as the casket was lowered to the ground in tears and embraced me, one on each shoulder, crying uncontrollably, as I stood there silent and comforted them. I saved my tears till later when I was alone. I simply talked to Grams spirit, and swore I would make her proud.
I allways knew my Dad had bottled up emotions, and also how sensitive he was, as he did the best he could to live as what he thought was the way a Man was supposed to. At least to some degree there was emotional neglect present in his upbringing, but again "hurt people hurt people", so much of that could have been handed down in the rural traditions of people who came through the depression, and learned how to be tough and independant.
Dad was never satisfied with how much I worked, what I did, and there was allways something more on the list. All I wanted was a pat on the back once in a while, but mostly it was "grow up don't be a pansy", and he never showed he was proud of me, so I felt less than OK, and inferior. It took into my teens to separate this feeling from reality and see it was just an extension of his own feelings for himself. He was driven and couldn't accept himself, so it bled off into his family and them also. Very common but still prevalent and damaging just the same.
Thank God for the men who are determined to break that cycle, and let children be children and express emotions be they male or female. Just spending time with them and believing they are feeling something and reasoning it out at thier level. How else could we come to grips with irrational fears and dismiss them as such, unless someone takes the time to listen, and explain, and just be there when they are afraid.
This to me has been what I have considered what a man should be, not just some pair of hanging gonads grunting and insisting everything be thier way, even if thier way made more sense, at least we should all hear why and not be ashamed to ask.
Great Thread HHH, maybe it could be changed to "The Mysterys of being a Man"..Like,"The Art of Manliness",(Which I read now BTW, I cried,(oops) when I listened to MLKs "I have a dream" speech again, gets me every time)
Since most of the audience here are men allready humble enough to look for help in thier marraige, maybe they don't think they still need to be challanged in those places we define our manhood. Those things that and actions/beliefs of what makes us manly.
IDK, but thems womenfolk better keep outta here and stop cleaning up those mental messes we end up in as men, as we intellectually beat the crap outta each other as we shatter assumptions and poor thinking.
We are as "Iron sharpening Iron" when we come together to reason.
I'd rather be wrong and happy, than right and miserable.
Reminds me of something I asked a friend once. "Would you rather know what to expect and be prepared or go through life being gullable and trusting?" He laughed and said "Gullable of course!" It took some time to process that one but I finally got it,(I think ). For me it was about not worrying and spending time in the moment. You can almost worry issues into existance.
I was reading an article on Georges St. Pierre from UFC - a man who is considered the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world.
He stated that he is terrified every time he fights - and that it is that fear that makes him the best fighter he can be. Yet, the first time he fought Matt Hughes, who is one of the greatest champions of that weight class, that same fear paralyzed him.
Later on, he fought Hughes again. Then he fought another up-and-comer named Matt Serra. In that fight, he was overconfident - was NOT afraid - and got his backside handed to him.
It takes a certain type of humility to admit that you have fear, and the greatest type of courage to take that fear and let it shape your improvements.
The same can be said for pain, or confidence, or any other virtue, vice, or emotion.
Anything can either improve or destroy you, it is how you handle it that decides the outcome.
Yes, I believe many things can be self-fulfilling. But, in an ideal world, your outlook should largely depend on whether or not you can do anything about your problem and how you deal with it from there. The familiar Serenity Prayer, if you will.
About 12:30 here, thought I'd catch up on what's going on. I nearly nodded off at 6:00 this evening, but now am wide awake. Figures.
Actually "getting" the meaning of that prayer took a while for me. Shoot, I'm still not sure I follow it all the time, but some is better than none, I guess.
I was reading the link about resilience<sp> that was in the beginning of this thread on that website. Good stuff, along with the articles connected, like "hardihood"
Feel like we should be wearing viking helmets as we celibrate these qualities in men.
It was a good time in my life when I realized that boundaries, discipline, and taking the bullit for someone was part of a greater love and protection than many understand.
Ah NW was gonna expound but its late here and I have run out of wind. Tommorow maybe.
Hey can we tell stories on this thread? I got a few "manly" ones that are really funny.
About 12:30 here, thought I'd catch up on what's going on. I nearly nodded off at 6:00 this evening, but now am wide awake. Figures.
Actually "getting" the meaning of that prayer took a while for me. Shoot, I'm still not sure I follow it all the time, but some is better than none, I guess.
The elusive part is, "The wisdom to know the difference". I guess it is normal to try and change something then only when you can't do you experience the pain that brings wisdom. I wish I knew ahead of time but sometimes, (pray not to often), the only way is to try and fail.
Liked the part in that article about resilience, used to have a lot more than I have now. It is good to be educated and reminded that the come-back is what really counts.
I checked out the link, pretty true about forgivness also.
I like the whole premise thats presented also, about rites of passage in a boys life, and also realize the fathers connection to his daughter also, and a Mother to both sons and daughters.
Perhaps that is why I like this site, because of how preciuos and valuable the family unit is.
What does it possibly mean that I feel more and more "complete" with my father.
He isn't that great. But he's in my life... never divorced my mom. He has a million awful behaviors. The way he acts around us at family functions etc.... the way he treats my mom.... how uncomfortable he makes my wife with his unintentional rudeness... none of our wives would put up with that.
On the other hand, his dad was alcoholic, abusive and disappeared from my Dad's life before my Dad was 30. So my Dad is a zillion times better than his. I am a zillion times improved from my Dad.
I believe that I accept "the wisdom to know the difference..." and accept him for who he is, and know that I can try to change him, but don't put too much power in that. Overall, I feel "complete" with him.
I feel pretty okay with that. I'll keep trying in little ways to crack through and work on getting to know him, getting him to be a better man, gettting him to know me... but I am not waiting for some life altering revelation or breakthrough. He has no power over me even though he is present in my concious and will be (I suspect its normal) forever.
Nice intro Stetch into something I wanted to ask on here, or start a discussion around.
I can draw the same line for four generations to me, incremental improvements along the way. Bad marriages too. Something I have been wrestling with for the past six months...so I will just throw it out there.
Sitting here with my three year old watching cartoons. How do I keep this from happening to him? How do I keep him from cheating or being cheated on? What can I do to give him the best chance of never having to experience any of this?
That would make this all worth it - if I could stop it from happening to him!
Sitting here with my three year old watching cartoons. How do I keep this from happening to him? How do I keep him from cheating or being cheated on? What can I do to give him the best chance of never having to experience any of this?
That would make this all worth it - if I could stop it from happening to him!
Thoughts?
If you, at least, recognize what you don't want him to do, then that's a start, wouldn't you say?
Start by being a great example, you and your wife, so he'll have a good model for his own behavior/relationship(s).
I'm the fifth generation that didn't know his father growing up by either death or "waywardocity". Not a chance in hell that is getting passed onto my son. That train stops now
Sitting here with my three year old watching cartoons. How do I keep this from happening to him? How do I keep him from cheating or being cheated on? What can I do to give him the best chance of never having to experience any of this?
That would make this all worth it - if I could stop it from happening to him!
Thoughts?
If you, at least, recognize what you don't want him to do, then that's a start, wouldn't you say?
Start by being a great example, you and your wife, so he'll have a good model for his own behavior/relationship(s).
I'm the fifth generation that didn't know his father growing up by either death or "waywardocity". Not a chance in hell that is getting passed onto my son. That train stops now
How about being honest about the fact that infidelity has occured with his parents, and what - EXACTLY - it has put both of them through, and what it could have potentially put ALL of you through.
Sitting here with my three year old watching cartoons. How do I keep this from happening to him? How do I keep him from cheating or being cheated on? What can I do to give him the best chance of never having to experience any of this?
That would make this all worth it - if I could stop it from happening to him!
Thoughts?
If you, at least, recognize what you don't want him to do, then that's a start, wouldn't you say?
Start by being a great example, you and your wife, so he'll have a good model for his own behavior/relationship(s).
I'm the fifth generation that didn't know his father growing up by either death or "waywardocity". Not a chance in hell that is getting passed onto my son. That train stops now
How about being honest about the fact that infidelity has occured with his parents, and what - EXACTLY - it has put both of them through, and what it could have potentially put ALL of you through.
I love this, every one of you, concerned for your children and thier future, and making plans to make it better.
To me its age appropiate honesty and doing everything you know is right and being happy to do it in front of and with your children. They need our time, and excuses mean little if they think your being selfish.
I have been challanged to end the cycle in my family also, and to be honest, it has been on my mind since I was a kid. I was never gonna let my kid grow up as lonely and scared as I did, especially when I found out most of my problems I felt as a child were an illusion. Emotional habits of withdrawl and fear can really break your spirit, and rebeliousness sometimes is the only coping mechanism we have when we don't understand.
Children emotionally understand way more than we give them credit for, and those coping tools we give them are so important. So how can we help them live and develop differently than we have? How can people like us who didn't have a "normal" childhood relate to a child that we want to experiance life differently than we did? That has been a very important question to me for all my life, and I still think about it daily, because I believe my attitude and approach with them must be honest, transparent, and humble as possible. The most important for me is to explain to them that there is no end to the questions for any of us, and that is totally normal, so questioning is to be welcomed. Yes even questioning you, or God, or any authority over them, until they get an answer.
One of the most challanging is saying you don't know why. Why did Mommy drink and destroy her life like she did? Didn't she love us or want to be around us anymore? Will it happen to me? There is where they grow up early, and have to handle issues way before thier time. I have to let them know they are not thier Mom, and are responsible for themselves, and no excuses. This is an amazing freeing realization, but at a young age it is terrifying also, as now they will have even more fears. As many ways I could skirt around the issue that it was fear that drove there Mom into running to drink, and that it was learned behavior since childhood from crappy parents,(both plus family),there is allways the part of them that saw the Mom that loved them at one time and would take on a bear to protect them. So they question of why and the answer only God knows will have to remain as they process this separation emotionally from someone that once loved them and protected them and they found all their comfort in. But I am open to discuss it with them, and reason things out, whenever nessesary.
But the real answer I beleive, is that we realize no matter what emotional habits we have inherited from our upbringing, we realize our own frialty as humans, and determine to live differently than our parents. We make changes rather than live in the debilating shame from where we came, we keep the details to ourselves of what we might have went through private unless asked, and then we share it openly and honestly as age appropiatness and time and thier maturity progresses. The world and life and people are full of mistakes and pain, out job as parents is to help our children to avoid as much as possible, to teach, obout the pitfalls, and to encourage them that they are the masters of thier destiny. They are seperate beings than us, and if you beleive that God lives in our conscience, and in truth and wisdom, they are accountable to that before anything else and what we do is prepare them to deal with life by listening and reasoning within themselves also.
My late W used to get freaked out whenever my children doubt God or ask questions when they hit puberty. She wanted them safe I know, but she based her faith on never making a mistake and being subject to weaknesses that were out of her control. She wanted them to just do what she said and because she had a much different life and her Mother and family were very poor in comparison to us, she expected them to automatically just know that she was right and they were wrong. She would bring up her parents and start to tell them how thier life was so much better than hers, offended because they asked questions about normal things. Example "Why is there such a click in the Christian youth group and why does the Pastor have favorites?" " Why when I did everything I was supposed to did the inner city kids get the prize gift?". "Why am I treated like an outcast because I don't have as much money or clothes that they have?" These are normal questions for a teenage girl who was taught to be openminded and not judgemental about people, and she was hurt, and a ten year old boy who wanted to fit in and be recognized,(and was naturally competitive too with all the insecurities that come with it).
I explained to my daughter that is was wrong and based on some idea that sprang from fear that people wanted to believe they were better than others, because they were not, and her reward was to know that and not live like them. As lonely as that might be, the worst thing was to let it make you angry and bitter, because that was what probably formed thier alliance, the rejection.
My ten year old I told him that they were trying to draw in the inner city kid and encourage him, and of course that went over like a lead balloon, because he worked so hard for that prize, and I taught him to be fair. But he learned about co-hersion, and he understood the premise, and he also knew where the boy came from was a tough place for kids.
But here is the kicker with late W, Why be so upset that our children asked normal questions and were not afraid to? If God is real, is he afraid of our questions? As a matter of fact he welcomes them and the challanges of those that would seek wisdom. NOT perfection. Late W wanted our children to have different lives than she had, and now that they did and are not afraid, she didn't recognize that and rejoice in it? It was all about her and all she sacrificed anyway at that point and she had beacome very unhappy for a lot of reasons. Not gona expound on that.
I thought that God could handle the questioning and it would not change the truth if he was real, and real was what I would teach them anyways. So ask away..
Reminded of two songs, "Teach your children" by Crosby, stills, nash, and young and "the Living years" by Mike and the mechanics.
Giving your Kids the best life possible and not letting them in on the emotional pain you lived with is so important, but yet they will have to know if your hurt and why also, because of how close they are to you. As time goes on and they reach the age of accountibility I worry less, but I still am around to help them when they need it, if I can.
We allways will think of our Children and God help us if we don't.
HHH, I read the article from the art of manliness about being physical that showed up in the email today. Its so right on and I think it is what is missing from my life. To much thinking not balanced with activity has not been good for me ever. Im gonna grab ahold of that wisdom. Thanks.
This thread belongs to every man on this site, I'd like them to own it by bringing their thoughts, feelings, experiences... as well as those things they read which resonate.
The example thing I am lit up like a firecracker trying to provide...plus when he does get old enough I will be watching - and if I ever even got a whiff from him I apply boot to backside.
Question is, what else can I do?
From everything on this site...
Religeon is no shield Prosperity is no shield Having kids or not - no effect Age - no effect
You can instill values, and still nothing. So what else can i do as a father?
The example thing I am lit up like a firecracker trying to provide...plus when he does get old enough I will be watching - and if I ever even got a whiff from him I apply boot to backside.
Question is, what else can I do?
From everything on this site...
Religeon is no shield Prosperity is no shield Having kids or not - no effect Age - no effect
You can instill values, and still nothing. So what else can i do as a father?
And that is where the honesty of your situation will come in.
And then you say; and this is why, one you are married, you should not keep close relationships with anyone of the opposite sex.
Part one of the series that CP is referring to, here;
There has been a copious amounts of hand wringing lately about the state of modern men, about the fact that men appear to be falling behind in life and seem unmotivated and listless.
Why all this concern? The statistics are familiar to anyone who has read this genre of articles:
Women are more likely than men to graduate from high school. Only 44% of undergraduates at community and four year colleges are men. Female college students have higher grade point averages than men and are more likely to graduate within four years. According to the US Census, �Among young adults 25 to 29, 35 percent of women and 27 percent of men possessed a bachelor�s degree or more in 2009. This gap has grown considerably in the last decade: it was only 3 percentage points in 1999 (30 percent for women, 27 percent for men).� Women are 60% more likely than men to earn a bachelor�s degree by the time they are 23. According to the US Census, for the first time in history, more women than men are earning advanced degrees. �In the 25-29 age group, 9 percent of women and 6 percent of men held either a master�s, professional (such as law or medical) or doctoral degree.� Nearly six out of ten adults holding advanced degrees between the ages of 25 and 29 are women. Men lost 3/4 of the 8 million jobs that disappeared during the recession. For the first time in history, there are now more women in the workforce than men. 1/3 of men ages 22-34 still live at home with their parents. An increase of 100% in the last 20 years. According to the census, among young adults ages 18-24, 56 percent of men and 48 percent of women still live at home with their parents.
Plenty of theories have been offered as to what is behind these statistics. Some say the economy is to blame, as traditionally male industries have been moved off shore or gone extinct. Another reason given is that corporate culture and bureaucracy have sucked the soul out of men and taken away their manly autonomy. Others say it�s our consumer culture and the rise of particularly time-sucking hobbies like video games. And some say the root of the problem is feminism, the changing dynamic of male/female relationships, and the �cheapness of sex.�
But I would argue that there isn�t just one thing that you can point at and decisively say, �That one. That one was the man killer.� Instead, the source of the modern male�s lack of motivation is a conglomeration of all these factors. In short, the �problem� is modern life in general.
To me the modern world is the best possible world to live in, without a doubt. The advancements we�ve made in technology and culture have made life safer, freer, and longer than ever before.
At the same time, no matter how unmitigated a good is, there are always unintended consequences that we have to grapple with. And the unintended consequence of modern life is that men feel lost and adrift.
Yup That will do it hhh I liked gaming but I knew it rated second to real sports and it was more like entertainment than real challenge but it did help a little in the ego Dept Until I got to know the hard core gamers and how it was win at all costs
It is to devoid of reality. I like the physical challenges of judo better because it is more like the real deal in life if it ever comes down to it. The best part is you have the confidence and fear control so you can control the situation with a cool head. Hence " The gentle way"
Team sports are really good too to develop but there is no replacement for one on one stuff
Reynolds when I know the answer to that question I will be sure to answer it for you. The truth is there is always conflict going on every day and a war within ourselves. I have quoted this before but I find it so profound I will quite it again from the movie"The Edge" "Why do people die in the wilderness when they are lost? They die of shame. How did I get so stupid and make so many mistakes?" "Instead of doing what they can and thinking of how to save themselves, they waste Thier time blaming themselves"
So I guess we just have stay vigilent and keep a cool head for our kids and they know we love them if we spend the time and are allways with them no matter what, even while we make mistakes too
That is more stabilizing for them than anything and gives them inner security and what better gift could they ever get?
Katsumoto: You have nightmares? Nathan Algren: Every soldier has nightmares. Katsumoto: Only one who is ashamed of what he has done. Nathan Algren: You have no idea what I've done. Katsumoto: You have seen many things. Nathan Algren: I have. Katsumoto: Yet you do not fear death, but sometimes you wish for it. Is this not so? Nathan Algren: Yes. Katsumoto: I also. It happens to men who have seen what we have seen. But then I come to this place of my ancestors, and I remember. Like these blossoms, we are all dying. To know life in every breath, every cup of tea, every life we take. The way of the warrior.... Nathan Algren: Life in every breath... Katsumoto: That is Bushido.
I either completely miss, or completely understand the romatacizing of the Samurai by men of any other nations.
I think it works in in the movie, as well;
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Algren: [narrating] They are an intriguing people. From the moment they wake they devote themselves to the perfection of whatever they pursue. I have never seem such discipline. I am surprised to learn that the word Samurai means, 'to serve', and that Katsumoto believes his rebellion to be in the service of the Emperor.
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Algren: [narrating] Winter, 1877. What does it mean to be Samurai? To devote yourself utterly to a set of moral principles. To seek a stillness of your mind. And to master the way of the sword.
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Algren: [narrating] Spring, 1877. This marks the longest I've stayed in one place since I left the farm at 17. There is so much here I will never understand. I've never been a church going man, and what I've seen on the field of battle has led me to question God's purpose. But there is indeed something spiritual in this place. And though it may forever be obscure to me, I cannot but be aware of its power. I do know that it is here that I've known my first untroubled sleep in many years.
Where did we lose this deep commitment and discipline to LIFE? What did we gain in return for our loss?
- Sidenote; thoughts going out to North... hoping he and his loved ones aren't tangled up in all the tornado and flood mess badly, if at all.
There is an old saying about a swordsman in that culture
The true swordsman in not a man wielding a sword and aware of it but a sword in the hands of the unconscious
It's the principle of the empty mind. Being connected to the now instead of the then or the maybes our thoughts can produce that makes fear a real obstacle in our lives
Meditation and the constant practice of it allows us to learn how to empty our minds from all the noise going on in our subconscios
Usually they are thoughts that cause fear that cause thoughts and on and on it goes
Joshua from the Christian bible was a warrior As a matter of fact Joshua translated is a name that reflects the name Jesus , which also translates across the board with savior. Pronounced (Ya-shoo-a) in Hebrew joshua was a picture of the first Christ
Joshua was big on meditation to prepare him for the battles he would encounter. He lead them into the promised land and established the boundaries of Israel and once he died the boundaries stopped being expanded
If there are any real biblical scholars out there who can further clarify the details of this please feel free to correct me, but I am sure of the meditation and warrior status of Joshua and that was really the main point and his habit of meditation every day before battle
The noise in the back of our mind that always going on can be controlled if we make a conscious descision to empty our minds. It takes practice though to get to the place where we can do this form of relaxation and really notice the results. Most of the time I end up falling asleep which means I am out of practice. Or maybe just really tired also But once we can empty our anxieties and meditate upon the right thoughts that bring in positive goals and peace for us it is a powerful pro active tool for fighting the things that attack us. Much better that taking drugs or running away in some form or another because we have control over our enemy's and put them in Thier place
To live in the moment and realize life all around you. Yeah that pursuit is never a waste of time
Like these blossoms, we are all dying. To know life in every breath, every cup of tea, every life we take. The way of the warrior.... Nathan Algren: Life in every breath... Katsumoto: That is Bushido.
I either completely miss, or completely understand the romatacizing of the Samurai by men of any other nations.
I get what your saying, and the fact that we have started to die since we are born, and that is a guarantee in life, once we accept it, we can decide life is precious and short, and maybe thats the warrior philosphy in a nutshell.
I am reminded of the speech in braveheart before the battle about the men who would live but in the end regret not fighting for freedom that day. The other statements like, "All men die, not all men really live", and when asked by the princess to beg mercy of the king how he said,, "If I ask for forgiveness and mercy for what I beleive in and all those men died for, so I can live, then all that I am is dead allready".. when she offered him land and titles to stop the war and said,"Nobles are made that way" he retorted,,"Slaves are made that way!"
What drove this man? Even if the flick was not historically correct what was said has deep meaning anyways. We all have heard of the stories of the man who jumped on the grenade to save his brothers at war, and men are the most likely to stay in a bad situation against all odds to stand for something they beleive in. As aggressivly built humans its in our nature to stand alone. We must hack out the enviroment to attract a women to mate with and raise children together and we don't have relationships as broadly as most women do, but are likely to have them very intensly and specifically.
But it is a mistake to take this quality of focus and intensity lightly as society often does with its "men are simple plodding ignoramumes" portrayed on TV. They are focused because they are aware that what you do is who you are and not as stimulated by the many things in and around them they have a sort of relationship with.
My first wife had this joke.." A good man is hard to find, but a hard man is good to find too" Taking the sexual ha-ha out of it thier is still some truth in the joke. Solid hard men are becoming a rarity in our culture as we try to medicate them into some social standard popular for the day. Walter Mathau made a joke in the movie, "Good Buddies" with Jack Lemmon. Mathau was a cold hit man and Lemmon wanted to commit suicide cuz his wife left him for some new age dipstick... When Lemmon asked Mathau if he believed in growing old with someone and the sanctity of marriage, Mathau said in his deadpan voice he was famous for, " I once knew a couple who were in thier 70s and were married for 50 years.. His Wife divorced him because his hearing aid messed up the television reception"
With the warrior, as in life, everything passes away and just to appreiate life itself is the gift that can never be taken and probably the best part also.
My Judo teacher who runs a state champion Dojo is a Pastor in the church. He came from a tough background and had to learn to fight young but recognizes that God is a God of spiritual warfare. One of the sermons he gave sorta stuck with me about how God raises up a standard for us in the midst of trouble. Now a standard in the battle field is a flag and gives direction. But a standard we live by can guide us out of terrible places within ourselves at terrible times.
That too is the way of the warrior, and he is big on honour and japanese tradition and philosphy. I asked him to lead and speak at my wives funeral because he was a real person I could relate to, and my wife did also. At one time I would put my W up against anybody, she was that strong, and a warrior in her own right. Even the valient do fall.
You guys are awesome! There are so many thoughtful, spiritual people posting here. As a woman raised by a '50s domineering father, I can tell you that there was a huge backlash from women who were tired of men coming back from WWII and telling women that they had to be "just housewives." But you are right, the pendulum has swung too far toward degrading men, and they need to re-claim their place as confident husbands and fathers who value their families and do not require their wives to be passive Stepford robots who are treated like children with no power of their own.
Yeah its funny that those men came back and did that kinda stuff. I think it was part of a program or something.
What about Rosie the Riviter? How about the female Welders who did mans work in the shipyards?
There have been strong women all through History and it has allways been my opinion that only insecure men have a problem with a strong women.
Have them stay home barefoot and pregnant? Nope not me, I'm not a slave owner..I value a womens perspective and intuition to much for that. Plus I never needed a wife to be happy and I sure wouldn't be happy tying one down. It just doesn't work anyways.
But what happened in that double standard twist around whatever is convienient thing with women in the workplace? I remember the mid 70s when I worked in a factory with women. I got along with them all pretty well. I was a pretty good looking but very married 18 year old guy, and women were all "equal rights" but hey if they couldn't get your attention it was like being a fresh nightcrawler in a chicken pen. Jealousy between even the mature adult women who were stable for the most part. If you talked to one and another one who was mad at that one for something else got upset you ended up with the cold shoulder. So I had to make the social rounds and hear the gossip and why this or that isn't fair and how this one was mad at that one and what they thought about it....help! I would take a simple minded one track mind guy over them anyday.
But this I will say, the women allmost allways worked harder than the men/boys. The older ones of either sex worked harder than the young ones on average.
Talk about feeling like a piece of meat lol. At least with guys you could be direct and speak your mind, but with a lot of the girls you had to dance around them. I would be as honest and direct as I could to keep it simple the first time around, then a young cutie would ask a personel question just to mess with me and draw out my protective instincts and try to be my pet...but then when they got together it was all about equal rights?
Lol Ok, you have the right to be chewed out by me instead of a hand-holding session of why things are they way they are and why its fair and blah blah..But then you were a guy and scared them then..?? Yup, the women then played games and I suspect they still do now.
The 60 year old scottish women who once worked in occupied scotland in ww2 was the sweetest and hardest worker in the bunch. I had to slow her down or she would hurt herself and do everybody elses job. She was the only one I trusted. she told it like it was without losing one ounce of femininity either. i miss her she was a real friend.
That was 35 years ago and I am sure some things have changed but I still am not sure if I go out of my way to hold a door open for a women am I insulting her ability? Making a pass? being polite?.. It seems to be twisted around to the whim of the moment like poor broken hearted Monica Lewinski.(Sarcasm)
But I doubt Rosie the Riveter would have an issue or really give a crap about what I thought, some women just have guts and conviction. Like my gram and Mom I guess. Women are really pretty tough in some ways. As allways also a mystery.
Eh, I'm more like Algren. Not spiritual, and stuck wishing for death.
I just have too many battles left to check in... yet.
Yeah well you know I am not gonna let that one go by without a comment. But it is worth it to me and for the respect I have for you to think a little bit about it and i am typed out for today/tonight.
Everybodys spirtual and everybodys religiuos as far as I can see, but thats JMO, I will see if if I can back it up with reason and common sense tommorow. This will be a tough one but good for me too.
Eh, I'm more like Algren. Not spiritual, and stuck wishing for death.
I just have too many battles left to check in... yet.
Yeah well you know I am not gonna let that one go by without a comment. But it is worth it to me and for the respect I have for you to think a little bit about it and i am typed out for today/tonight.
Everybodys spirtual and everybodys religiuos as far as I can see, but thats JMO, I will see if if I can back it up with reason and common sense tommorow. This will be a tough one but good for me too.
>.<
That's a can of worms I would be willing to open and dine on with you and a few others here, CP. However, I fear it could be disruptive.
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Locke: �Go*&^%%it, Morpheus. Not everyone believes what you believe.�
Lol Ok lets get TimB here and we can complain about cars. I am gonna go work on an Audi, a Golf, and a brake job for a midsize pickup this week starting tommorow...
I'll fully admit to having let it falter due to my expectation that someone else might pick up the mantle.
That's my fault. My own reluctance to lead. It permeates through a lot of things in my life, most often in the workplace. I will always step up when things fall apart, or when nobody else will - but I always do so reluctantly.
In the classroom it's the same - however, I usually establish myself well enough that often times my classmates become reluctant and look to me to be the one to step up to the plate each and every time. We needed volunteers for some lab run-throughs this last week, and the immediate response was "Let HHH do it!" Feeling that we are there to learn, I try to sidestep and encourage others to rise to the occasion, but my own willingness to be put on the spot has made me the go-to. Ugh.
Anyway, inspired by CP, I think it would be good to go through the resiliency series on AoM, and I may toss in some additional notes from another one of my favorite sites, You Are Not So Smart - at least, as they correlate to resiliency and building it. A lot of the YANSS stuff would probably build really well into the "Catastrophizing" article, which we will revisit. I encourage anybody interested to check out YANSS (I've tried before) - it's a blog on "Self Delusion" which explores and explains psychological biases and phenomenon we experience every day.
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There are a lot of virtues lacking in the current generation of men, but I think an argument can be made that our lack of resiliency is the most critical.
And I say that as a man who has himself struggled to live this virtue.
In law school, I engaged in a pathetic routine each semester. After finishing my finals, I would initially feel pretty confident in how I did. But then I would sit and think about the exams in detail, remembering questions that I missed, issues that I failed to raise. My confidence would quickly evaporate, replaced by a sense of utter doom and despair. I would become convinced that I had gotten a C or even failed the test. I wouldn�t get my grades back for several weeks, but I would spend that time in a state my wife called �logging out,� which, as the name suggests, involved me laying on the couch like a depressed log.
When my grades would finally come in, I would be relieved to find I hadn�t flunked out, Kate would chide me for my irrational behavior, and I would swear that I wouldn�t waste my time doing that again. But come finals time the next semester, the The Log Man would make another appearance.
I was in serious need of some resiliency. And I still am. For reasons I�ll explain in future posts, law school really did a number on my resiliency, and I�ve had to go to work on regaining my hardihood. So I decided to do some research on the subject and share it with others who might be struggling to be resilient too.
A lot of us here have our experiences that have tested our resiliency. If you are home to this portion of the forum, SAA, or even for those in 101, the road to recovery is going to be a long-term test of your resiliency, and building it up is going to be paramount to success.
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Studies have shown that boosting your resilience increases your resistance to stress and can greatly lower your chances of becoming depressed. It can even reduce the chances of getting PTSD. You may not be living in a war zone, but the trials of life, even the weight of many little setbacks, can leave a man feeling shell-shocked.
We all have times when life makes us want to crawl into a hole; resiliency is what helps us dust ourselves off and climb back into the saddle instead. But just what is resiliency, anyway?
Resiliency is a quality that helps us both act and react in appropriate and productive ways. Let�s take a look at both of these areas.
I can tell you that I still have days where I want to crawl in a hole. The funny thing is, that I have always been pretty resilient. I had just based it off of the wrong thing; my wife's fidelity. So long as I had her by my side, loving me, I could face and overcome any failure I faced. I faced and overcame many of them, too. But... I did crawl in a hole. After years in "giver mode" the resilience that kept me attentive and affectionate to my wife failed.
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Resiliency is the ability to face setbacks, failures, crises, and pain (both emotional and physical) with confidence and courage.
It is the ability to quickly bounce back from our trials and tragedies.
It�s the quality that keeps us from giving up, even when the going gets rough. It�s the ability to stick with something through thick and thin and the power to overcome the temptation to bail put when things stop being easy.
Resilient men don�t let their worry about the future, about things that may or may not come to pass keep them in a funk. And they don�t let mistakes from their past eat them up inside. Instead, they concentrate on the present and the things that they do have control over.
Resilient men take personal responsibility for their actions. They don�t whine and blame others. And yet they do not blame themselves so much that shame and guilt paralyze them from moving forward and trying again.
We see resiliency in the guy who gets cancer but remains optimistic and upbeat. In the man who gets a divorce, but doesn�t get bitter. In the guy who is fired from his prestigious job, but is able to make the best of becoming a stay-at-home dad. He�s the rock who keeps his composure when bad news hits and is able to take care of his loved ones when everything�s going to pot. He�s both strong and flexible.
Resiliency is a quality that not only helps with the big crises of life, but also allows you to weather the mundane daily annoyances that threaten to grind out your vitality. Resilient is the man who can face his annoying co-worker without anger, argue with his wife without exploding, and have his kid disappoint him without flipping out.
Does this sound familiar? In recovery, we are told to become present and future oriented. In the depths of betrayal and despair, however, it's hard to look forward. Based on our current emotions, the future is either bleak or unseen.
How do we overcome this? By focusing on TODAY. Any thought of tomorrow is addressed by our actions TODAY.
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While we most often think of resiliency as a quality that helps us react to challenges, resiliency is also essential to the proactive aspects of our lives. It is the virtue that allows us to face the world head on like daring adventurers, to strike out into the unknown like courageous explorers. It is the quality that enables us to take risks, to reach out to others, and to live deeply and powerfully.
Without resiliency we forever dwell on our setbacks instead of making progress in our lives. The hurt from our past disappointments (or even the hurt we imagine could befall us) is so debilitating that we cannot muster up the courage and desire to take chances and seize opportunities; we�re afraid of experiencing pain and embarrassment. Without resiliency we become content to play it small; we hide from the world, keeping ourselves from hurt but also removing our chances of joy, excitement, and satisfaction. The fear of trying something and failing looms large in our minds. Yet we ignore the even bigger failure-the failure to make an attempt, to try and to risk.
Every man wants to know the secret of the man who is able to walk up to any woman and strike up a conversation. Who can saunter into his boss� office and ask for a raise. Who takes the trip everyone else says is crazy. Their secret is resilience. They�ve got a thick skin; they don�t walk around feeling like the next disappointment might be a fatal blow, a wound to their ego and happiness that will take forever to recover from. They�re not crippled by fear of embarrassment. They know that if they get rejected, if things don�t work out, they�ll hardly miss a beat; they know they won�t shrivel up like a daisy; they�ll simply take the setback in stride and keep on truckin. They don�t shrink from forming relationships in fear of the potential pain of a break-up; they know that pain is a possibility but they are confident in their ability to manage it and move on.
Do you want to be a man that lives with gusto, seeing the world as your oyster instead of a minefield? Well, good news: It�s possible for every man to develop iron-clad resiliency.
While some men may have been born more resilient than others, or had parents that helped them develop this quality, it, like all virtues, is like a muscle that can be strengthened by regular exercise.
And in this, I've been called out. When I started this thread, I had hoped that someone else would pick up the mantle, take the risk, and shoulder the disappointment of failure.
No more. This is for all of us, but I will dedicate myself to having the courage to continue the dialogue, and silence any doubters.
As Katt Williams said "If you got 20 haters today, you should have 40 tomorrow - haters are gon' hate, that's their job, let them do it!"
Well I am in the perfect position to use this thread and jump into the art of manliness forum articles also. It has been a few years since my wifes passing and I have spent more time than I wanted to licking my wounds, thinking too much, getting out of shape, and not living like I used to.
My biggest challange has been to exercise and take better care of myself. I have put on weight, and my allready messed up and painful legs don't like walking anymore, when I used to love moving and being active. Heck before I messed up my legs at 12 and 13 I was the fastest runner in the school, and I ran for awhile as excersize and realease until 24 when an otrthopedic correctional operation made that impossible,,but I still liked to walk and work..then damaged elbows, a broken and pinned shoulder, and 20 years of physical extremes of jobs and time ..
well now it hurts to move...
I wrote all my details for a reason and it wasn't to give excuses, but to point out something that I read in the resilency articles. If you read about deppression, you will here how men who have become inactive slip into even worse depression the more they stop moving.
Mel gave me a bit of advice about getting out and living when I came here and I immediatly recognized the wisdom in it because it had allways worked for me before. Get out and do things and things that are healthy and as your body goes your mind will follow. But I felt that first I needed to..
Also I was reading in the article that what holds back some men is that they want to do it all and won't even do small things, also that they can be waiting for some epiphany or spiritual movement internally and that stops them. These are at least two obstacles that have stood in my way. I will never be the physical dynamo I used to be, and it seems all the reasons and the thing I was working/fighting for, the health of my wife and our marraige, have left a large hole in my hope and inspiration, passion and spirit.
I came here to help piece together what happened and make sense of it, because depression had done a number on me, but the physical activity I attempted to jump back into like working out in the sun in contruction, swapping engines in the dirt at a friends house, that I used to be able to do and was proud of my detirmination was too much, too fast, and would leave me wiped out for a couple days.
Lets use an MB term for that and call it, "Hysterical" attempts to get back to how I used to live and keep busy. Because there was still this hole inside that needed healing.
Now I do just something, instead of trying to do more than my body can take, and because of this I find I am healing also because I am getting outside of myself a little more. Of course things are falling more in place and make more sense as time goes on, but sometimes you have to get some perspective from distance that only comes from time.
Much of that hole I have now is up to me to fill, and not hysterically in fear and worry, but calmly with a plan. If it is only with a walk around the block, I try to keep it simple and be IN that walk, rather than be thinking 100 steps ahead of myself. Yes to keep going in a good direction we should have different ranges of plans and milemarkers, short range, midrange, and longrange, but we need them all to be balanced.
I may never be able to accomplish olympic size dreams of physical ability like I used to in my younger days, but my children have been inspired by my willingness to work 36 hr stints in dangerous enviroments just to support my family and work on positive dreams of the future. My biggest challange is to get to the point in 2004 where I could do the complete Judo workout including the backflip in the end. But I will never get there except by that old Proverb, "One step at a time"
I can wish and hope for an epiphany or spiritual experiance to move me, but like I have heard it said, "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first"
Its up to us to get up when we are hit. "Quitters never win and winners never quit". "You never stop fighting because lifes struggle and the day you quit you lose"
But it still happens one day, one step, at a time. I swear I will go down swinging fighting the good fight. Now for the wisdom to pick the battles I can move forward in effectivly. I need balance, not extremes.
So in the case of resiliency the article talks about staying active and how important that is for mens emotional health, among other things. YMCA, swimming, machines and small goals here I come.
Isaiah 40:30-31 King James Version (KJV)
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
I may not be able to run anymore, but I can surely walk. The attitude of rising above is also up to me, as my strength is renewed day by day.
Thanks CP lol, shes all fixed up. Yes was not too bad.
Take all the shots you like. Last week I proved on another thread that Melody was actually in love with the forum using Hartleys formula and her post count. So I need someone to take me down a notch.
Yeah well I am in love with the forums, addicted too Reyn, lol. I would love to see that formula you used, I bet I fit in it..lmao
Ok Public exclaimation.."I Constant Process, publibly state on this forum, that I will never depend on another woman as much as the forum, even if I someday spend time with them, for objective input concerning life and love, untill internet do we part"
Seriuosly any woman I was interested in spending time with would have to not only be a card carrying believer in the principles of MB, but they would also have to respect my appreciation for the place and my emotional connection. It should be listed as an EN.."Need to connect to others" wait I think Dr H has that covered ...
Of course I would man up and tell her if I did not have time for her..Ok, lets do that.."All women in the world that would like to have a seriuos relationship requiring time spent with me as we care for each other..I don't have any time nor do I feel anything to offer right now, come back later, The Wizard of OZ sees Nobody ,No-way, No-how!"
Oh wait, this is the MANS thread lol, we don't need to talk, just shut up and work, ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die, and all that tripe.
I am def in love and addicted to MB, but we are all addicts to something if we are honest. We all have needs. Nah Mel is a special person, I bet she is in love with this place and with her DH and her fam and pulls it all off without a hitch. Guts and determination like she has tend to expand a person IMO. You don't need to be taken down a notch for pointing out the obviuos.
Off to work some today...Ballance...Balance...Balance
Would it be too much request delegating the scriptural side of this thread to you?
I think your intimate knowledge of it would be an indispensable asset, and one which I am not knowledgeable enough to bring to the table.
Aww yur just saying that because I made that pledge about swearing off women if they got between me and the forums.
But Honestly HHH, I find it a great honor to have that asked of me, or that I seem to have intimate knowledge of scripture, seeing that the only things I can recall about it, are in reflection of the times I sought answers, as I am not a studied scholar.
I have allways been a seeker of wisdom, and a believer in greater character of people, through the expansion of our understanding. I have found so much of the examples given about people, thier motivations, and pitfalls in life to be expressed in the scripture, that I understand there is much that can be gotten from it that can benifet mankind, and I believe that is why it was written, for our benifet.
I believe we are spiritual beings first, and as My Pastor once said, "The heart is the seat of all emotions and reason, and the mind controls the feelings. The feelings are the appreciators of life and are owned by us, they do not run the decisions unless we allow them to."
Then we can compare that to the scripture..
Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Who can claim that that is not truth?
But it has been much of my life experiencing hard lessons of truth and then reading the same thing being taught in the word that have drawn me to the bible for understanding, and also breaking my concepts such as God being a man on a cloud with a big ligthning bolt waiting for me to screw up so he can punish me, or a type of escapist drug of the mind that does not challange a man to think, and wants us to all be robots. God wants us to challange what it says in the scriptures, because thats our nature, we only respect the strong. We are supposed to be strong and God encourages it.
But many use it for escapism and/or to make it all seem so mystical, and I prefer simplicity and practicality, so I don't fall into the catagory of a prophet wishing to impress people with cryptic knowledge that they cannot possibly understand. I am afraid that the world is full of those insecure types, who just need to feel they have some great connection and make others beleive it also. Of course this is a lie, and it only adds to the confusion and does not give those who like to hide the truth they so desperatly need. Those types would rather keep others confused and in chains to the confusion wailing and moaning that there is no answer for them.
So HHH, the bible for me is to make me think, look before I leap, to expand my mind and thought beyond my own limited perception, and to break down concepts I or others might labor under that are common to man. In that way it is from above, and it is love, as it is a love letter from God, ensuring me there is allways a way back home, and it is full of life as it can be found more abundantly.
If I can in any way share something or find a scripture referance to some subject in this thread, I will gladly try on request, or if it so moves me at the time, I will quote a scripture that seems to me relevant to a topic. I would do that anyway regaurdless, but I am not a trained Pastor, or a learned scholar, so trusting that I had the correct insight as to what God says about a subject would be a mistake. I suggest to anyone to seek what God has to say about anything through a Strongs exhaustive Concordance, the many study websites, the hebrew and greek interpetations and the many great preachers through the years as they exogete<sp> the translations. After all God is greater than the mere words we use to describe him and words can not do him justice. Many times its just at the right time in life that we accually hear what the words mean, at the times our spirit groans for answers, comfort, and strength.
Those are the times I have sought scripture for help, and unfortunatly I had allready fallen so far I had been alone and was desparate, but thats how it is for us it seems, we ussually go along untill something happens we need answers to, then we read the instructions.
So if you want Red Green to run the scripture referance part of this thread, I'm your man.
I was talking to a good friend of mine about the resilience part of AoM you referanced earlier.
It was clear that the word resilience could be cross-referanced with the popular expression heard in Christian circles of an action called, "Rebound"..
IE Pulling yourself up out of a pit God never wanted you to fall into using "rebound".
Of course there are some small differences in conotation. Resilience as an expression can almost sound like you never suffered a setback, and can be critisized as having tunnel-vision and stubborness. I personnally love to stay on a course and remain determined with passion, and that can seem stubborn also. So resilience as a man appeals to me because I find it nessesary to keep a course straight and follow a plan to the end.
Rebound sounds like you fell and need to get back up, and also has a reference to shame and our consciece or how guilt might play into it.
Then I got the mail from Aom about making mistakes and understanding that it is part of human nature. It all so dovetails into this to me..
You stay strong and head in the correct direction and are resilient to the,(Scripture ref:)"Darts and fiery arrows" of negativity and if you happen to stumble and fall, you use rebound to get back up on the path knowing mistakes are a part of life and do not let guilt or shame cripple you.
Red Green - I think hes one of our fine Canadian exports to the US isn't he?
I proved melody by taking her post count and time since registered - at ten minutes a post she spends 16 hours a week on the forum. It takes 15 to be in love.
I think she asked the mods for my home address after that one. If there is a big cadillac with bull horns parked in front of my house, I will just keep driviing. lol
I just spent WAAAAAYYY too much time on the "Damsels in Distress" thread, explaining to the BW's there that saying "WH was a bozo, and OW was a slut, and there was NOTHING I could have done about it in the past, nor do about it in the future!" is NOT what this site is about! I fear they're gonna come looking for me!
Hide me someplace no one ever goes. Canada, maybe?
Subtle? Who needs that crap! This is the MANS thread, "Full speed ahead and dammed the torpedos!"
Ng I love reading your posts because you make me think. Like I needed more of that!
I wonder if in all of that how long it took all of us to see that you were standing up for the MB concepts above all?
Though yes it is true there are some sleazey crazy ppl out there, who's selfish needs are from another planet, the truth is with reality therapy,(take your pick), they started out,(assumming thier isn't a bona-fide chemical and mental defieciency), with the basic needs of others on THIS planet. They could be saved? They put thier pants/slacks on one leg at a time like all of us do? Do we all deserve the same treatment?
This subject can go on and on.. . I could end up like Curly,(Jack Palance), in "City slickers" telling the secret to life is "One Thing", and holding up 1 finger as I drove the point home, if I try to figure out a formula...
So yeah needs were not being met, but who the heck knows what they wanted or even if they did lol. People get strange sometimes and they forget to take others into consideration. But thats no reason not to start wars, well at least thats been how we men have dealt with aggression forever. "Kill em all let God sort em out"
This relationship stuff is not for the weak-hearted huh?
Look, I didn't expect to sway everyone over there, but one person's response was shocking! This person is rightly recognized as the "delphi" in presenting and interpreting MB Principles. The most head-spinning line was something like the BS might have been meeting the EN's of the potential WS, but a potential AP came along to meet them better, the implication being "so what can one do?". Well duhhhhh! Who the hell said that determining and satisfying EN's of one's spouse is a one-time, static thing? Helloooooo - it is an ongoing process. Does anyone think the high placement of SF in the EN canon of twenty-year-old males immutably stays there for a lifetime? And the EN which was number one in my wife's life - familial (child) support - had disappeared and was replaced to a large extent by marital companionship/communication in later years, which led to her straying to find that from OM. That was MY failure. More on this later.......
jt, while you're up, could I ask you to bring me a cold Canadian brew as well?
I have no qualms with this becoming the "Gentleman's Lounge" (I shudder at the seedy connotations that might conjure). Let's be careful, though, that the atmosphere doesn't get us shut down for being too unruly, though.
Yet, how bad is it for us to have a spot to be unruly? To banter and BS? Ah, the thin line... if only we could make the thread invite-only, eh?
Anyway, CP, I have reflected daily on your (gentle) prod on the conversation about spirituality. I had also reflected on your comment that you are "waiting for an epiphany." I tend to shrink away from such discussion because I know my views aren't particularly popular. However, I decided I'll give you a few lines.
The first thing that comes to mind when someone says something about not being religious, but still being spiritual is a comedian named Daniel Tosh:
"I hate it when girls say things like 'I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual!' I react by saying 'Well, I'm not honest - but you're interesting!'"
But, I know the FEELING of spirituality. I know how it FEELS different than any other emotion, and in that feeling you feel CONNECTED to everything and something larger than yourself.
Yet, what conjures these feelings for myself is not something magical, mystical, spiritual, or divine. What conjures this in me is the idea of how HUGE our universe is, how SMALL we are in comparison, and how despite all of that, we ARE connected to everything, and that the universe AS A WHOLE is something far greater than ourselves even without mystical forces, spirits, or divinity. More-so, I think that can be recognized by those who DO believe in things mystical, magical, spiritual, and divine, and through that, they can stand in even MORE awe of those forces.
Beyond that, I believe that that spiritual feeling is a PERSONAL connection to that which an individual views as the greater.
For myself, my own epiphany came when I stopped waiting, and started looking... and then when I stopped looking for it in OTHER PEOPLE, and looked within MYSELF. Why would I look for a personal connection to something greater than myself through other people, who are not?
Unruly? I don't think I have seen that yet. When someone brings a keg and a bunch of sheets to make togas then we can worry.
Ran into something last night, not holding it up as a great resource or anything but it was funny and entertaining and some might pick up some stuff from it on relationships.
Utube "hogwild relationship advice" its a comedian who answers emailed questions. Its a paid site and mostly amateurish but some of its funny. Might also be a few tidbits in there.
Unruly? I don't think I have seen that yet. When someone brings a keg and a bunch of sheets to make togas then we can worry.
Ran into something last night, not holding it up as a great resource or anything but it was funny and entertaining and some might pick up some stuff from it on relationships.
Utube "hogwild relationship advice" its a comedian who answers emailed questions. Its a paid site and mostly amateurish but some of its funny. Might also be a few tidbits in there.
Youtube; Katt Williams self esteem.
I ROFL'd... HARD. Too "dirty" to post here, but the point is well made.
On iPhone and watchin my GD ATM so I will respond when I get home I liked that tosh joke too lol I got some stuff from my IC about strengths and virtue analysis ( oh boy!) and it has some interesting things to say about the difference between spirituality, religion,and transcendence I know sounds like I wear hemp and live on rice with that word right?
Sorry, guys, for my intrusion into your clubhouse, but I wanted to give a resource on spirituality vs religion: the Dalai Lama's book Ethics for the new Millennium, specifically chapter two. Religion is concerned with claims to salvation, spirituality is concerned with the qualities that lead to happiness for self and others <<< the short version. The whole book is very good.
we know where you guys are hiding......... I'll have a beer while I'm here too.......
Hand me one, jessi - they'll never miss a couple...:::splat!::: Iron City!! Who drinks Iron City!? Blech! We're gonna have to go pick up some Leinenkugels.
Hey, I found this really cool sign over by the trash can that we can sit on until the new sofa is delivered - who in their right mind would spell 'gurls' with an 's'?? Everyone knows it's spelled 'gurlz'!
Climbing up the rope ladder to ask if some of you could look in on Jeremeka over at SAA. Pep and Mel have him, but a dose of nutty speak is sorely needed.
Climbing up the rope ladder to ask if some of you could look in on Jeremeka over at SAA. Pep and Mel have him, but a dose of nutty speak is sorely needed.
Typical thing-- WW with a BH that stays home with the kids while she keeps an apartment. He needs to put his foot down, but is worried his wife will leave if he does. You know the drill.
..But, I know the FEELING of spirituality. I know how it FEELS different than any other emotion, and in that feeling you feel CONNECTED to everything and something larger than yourself.
Yet, what conjures these feelings for myself is not something magical, mystical, spiritual, or divine. What conjures this in me is the idea of how HUGE our universe is, how SMALL we are in comparison, and how despite all of that, we ARE connected to everything, and that the universe AS A WHOLE is something far greater than ourselves even without mystical forces, spirits, or divinity. More-so, I think that can be recognized by those who DO believe in things mystical, magical, spiritual, and divine, and through that, they can stand in even MORE awe of those forces.
Beyond that, I believe that that spiritual feeling is a PERSONAL connection to that which an individual views as the greater.
Here is a direct quote I got from a worksheet given to me me by my IC about "Virtues and Strengths" I was also given a worksheet where I was supposed to check off my strengths, and as usual I understand and respect all of them, but can'r really pick out what mine are intrinsic to me personnaly. But I will work on that later..
Here is the part I would closly relate to the confusion about human beings having a spirit, but how spirituality is allways related to religion.. One of the most freeing part of my learning about Christ was that he did not respect religion over his relationship with the father, who was spirit and life.
Ok Here it is.. " Trancendence
I use "trancendence" for the final cluster of strengths. This term is not popular throughout history---"spirituality" is the label of choice---but I wanted to avoid confusion between one of the specific strengths, spirituality, with the nonreligious strengths in this cluster. like enthusiasm and gratitude. By trancendence, I mean emotional strengths that reach outside and beyond you to connect you to something larger and more permenant: to other people, to the future, to evolution, to the divine, or to the universe."
Then HHH he has a list of sub-headings that fall into that cluster. I will list the headings but not the definitions.
1.Appreciation of beauty and excellence 2.Gratitude 3.Hope/Optimism/Future-mindedness 4.Spirituality/Sense of Purpose/Faith/Religiousness 5.Forgiveness and Mercy 6.Playfullness and Humor 7.Zest/Passion/Enthusiasm.
Here is one of the scriptures that I beleive shows the contempt Christ had towards organized religion in his day. Yes Churches do wonderful work, but it up to us to work on ourselves and traditions can only help so much to understand what is really important to God. But thats just my opinion..
Mark 7 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Mark 7 1 NOW THERE gathered together to [Jesus] the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2 For they had seen that some of His disciples ate with [a]common hands, that is, unwashed [with hands defiled and unhallowed, because they had not given them a [b]ceremonial washing]--
3 For the Pharisees and all of the Jews do not eat unless [merely for ceremonial reasons] they wash their hands [diligently [c]up to the elbow] with clenched fist, adhering [carefully and faithfully] to the tradition of [practices and customs handed down to them by] their forefathers [to be observed].
4 And [when they come] from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions [oral, man-made laws handed down to them, which they observe faithfully and diligently, such as], the washing of cups and wooden pitchers and widemouthed jugs and utensils of copper and [d]beds--
5 And the Pharisees and scribes kept asking [Jesus], Why do Your disciples not order their way of living according to the tradition handed down by the forefathers [to be observed], but eat with hands unwashed and ceremonially not purified?
6 But He said to them, Excellently and truly [[e]so that there will be no room for blame] did Isaiah prophesy of you, the pretenders and hypocrites, as it stands written: These people [constantly] honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far distant from Me.
7 In vain (fruitlessly and without profit) do they worship Me, ordering and teaching [to be obeyed] as doctrines the commandments and precepts of men.(A)
8 You disregard and give up and ask to depart from you the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men [keeping it carefully and faithfully].
9 And He said to them, You have a fine way of rejecting [thus thwarting and nullifying and doing away with] the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition (your own human regulations)!
10 For Moses said, Honor (revere with tenderness of feeling and deference) your father and your mother, and, He who curses or reviles or speaks evil of or abuses or treats improperly his father or mother, let him surely die.(B)
11 But [as for you] you say, A man is exempt if he tells [his] father or [his] mother, What you would otherwise have gained from me [everything I have that would have been of use to you] is Corban, that is, is a gift [already given as an offering to God],
12 Then you no longer are permitting him to do anything for [his] father or mother [but are letting him off from helping them].
13 Thus you are nullifying and making void and of no effect [the authority of] the Word of God through your tradition, which you [in turn] hand on. And many things of this kind you are doing.
14 And He called the people to [Him] again and said to them, Listen to Me, all of you, and understand [what I say].
15 There is not [even] one thing outside a man which by going into him can pollute and defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him and make him unhallowed and unclean.
16 [f]If any man has ears to hear, let him be listening [and let him [g]perceive and comprehend by hearing].
17 And when He had left the crowd and had gone into the house, His disciples began asking Him about the parable.
18 And He said to them, Then are you also unintelligent and dull and without understanding? Do you not discern and see that whatever goes into a man from the outside cannot make him unhallowed or unclean,
19 Since it does not reach and enter his heart but [only his] digestive tract, and so passes on [into the place designed to receive waste]? Thus He was making and declaring all foods [ceremonially] clean [that is, [h]abolishing the ceremonial distinctions of the Levitical Law].
20 And He said, What comes out of a man is what makes a man unclean and renders [him] unhallowed.
21 For from within, [that is] out of the hearts of men, come base and wicked thoughts, sexual immorality, stealing, murder, adultery,
22 Coveting (a greedy desire to have more wealth), dangerous and destructive wickedness, deceit; [i]unrestrained (indecent) conduct; an evil eye (envy), slander (evil speaking, malicious misrepresentation, abusiveness), pride ([j]the sin of an uplifted heart against God and man), foolishness (folly, lack of sense, recklessness, thoughtlessness).
23 All these evil [purposes and desires] come from within, and they make the man unclean and render him unhallowed. _____________________________________________________
I allways heard it as .."It is not what goes into a mans mouth that defiles him, it is what comes out of it" Words are powerful.
My favorite quote I heard given as a response to someone who was trying to "Save" and individual and bring them to thier church,(Yes their church was the only "good one"), was this.
"Jesus allready had a religion, he wasn't trying to start one.."
Sorry, guys, for my intrusion into your clubhouse, but I wanted to give a resource on spirituality vs religion: the Dalai Lama's book Ethics for the new Millennium, specifically chapter two. Religion is concerned with claims to salvation, spirituality is concerned with the qualities that lead to happiness for self and others <<< the short version. The whole book is very good.
*flees before someone puts gum in my hair*
Sounds right to me. What religious practices seem to do is try to force others to walk, talk, and act the correct?/same ways, to make the group happy all together at the same time. So maybe that is why they see thier religion or tradition as "salvation".
Typical thing-- WW with a BH that stays home with the kids while she keeps an apartment. He needs to put his foot down, but is worried his wife will leave if he does. You know the drill.
Another future (hopefully) member of the "Return of Man" club. I'll even clean up our pizza box and empties and get out of here if you can help convince him that laying down for his wife will not make her respect him.
You too, MB! I lurk a lot! Even in the clubhouse...hehe.
I saw your post to jerem - you're doing great!
Whattya mean, you were lurking in the clubhouse??? Are you the one who took the last slice of pizza while we were playing Texas Hold Em??? Dang, and I blamed jessi...I'll have to apologize to her...
Typical thing-- WW with a BH that stays home with the kids while she keeps an apartment. He needs to put his foot down, but is worried his wife will leave if he does. You know the drill.
Another future (hopefully) member of the "Return of Man" club. I'll even clean up our pizza box and empties and get out of here if you can help convince him that laying down for his wife will not make her respect him.
I subscribed to it to see if he replies, but a buck gets you twenty that it'll go on for a few pages while he ponders what his wife's reaction will be. Too bad there's no pill we could give him to fix that! If we could get him to just skip ahead a bit, he could probably get some traction.
Shoot, I think my thread drug on for months before I got fed up. Sometimes you just have to get pissed off, get down in the gutter with the bad guys and take whatever comes as a result of standing up for yourself.
WW's like those in Jeremka's thread really get me riled up sometimes. Especially when there are kids involved. I don't know if some of those betrayeds (like Jeremka) understand that we get on them because we actually give a damn, or if they think we're just clueless to the specifics of their situation and are being too gung-ho. Doesn't matter, probably.
Sometimes you just have to get pissed off, get down in the gutter with the bad guys and take whatever comes as a result of standing up for yourself.
Yup, If you wont stand for something you'll fall for anything. When the little lovely sweet things get exposed for the Baloney, it just hard to make the adjustment, "Hey, I didn't know she would do that!"
Best thing you can do, stand up for yourself, especially when they are taking a dump on you.
No ladies carry concealed weapons in Texas...right?
Hey Holdherhand, can we change the name of the thread to something like - "We're not in here girls so just go pick on WPG and don't click on this thread"?
I think we are actually outnumbered in here today.
No ladies carry concealed weapons in Texas...right?
Hey Holdherhand, can we change the name of the thread to something like - "We're not in here girls so just go pick on WPG and don't click on this thread"?
I think we are actually outnumbered in here today.
Well, I could get Mel running by changing the title to "Proper Tire-changing discussion," though she'd probably still come in to reply - "Call the Auto Club."
This will be the first post where I bring in YANSS as a supplement to the AoM articles.
Why?
Because the first half of Part II of building your resiliency is about Learned Helplessness.
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Starting in 1967, Dr. Martin Seligman began a series of experiments involving 3 groups of dogs. The first group of dogs were given electric shocks, but were able to press a panel with their nose to make the shocks stop. The second group of dogs were given the shocks as well, but had no recourse to make them stop. The third group was the control and received no shocks.
The dogs in the first and third group recovered well from the experiment. But the dogs in the second group, those that had been helpless to stop the pain, developed symptoms similar to clinical depression.
In the second part of the experiment, the dogs were placed in an enclosed box separated by a low barrier over which they could see. When the shocks were administered, all the dogs had the opportunity to easily escape the pain by jumping over the partition, and this is what the dogs in the first and third group did. But the dogs in the second group, those which had previously learned that there was nothing they could do to escape the shocks, simply lay there whimpering and took it. They had come to believe that nothing they did mattered; Dr. Seligman called this behavior �learned helplessness.�
The experiment was repeated with other animals, babies, and adult humans, and the results were the same. Once subjects had been exposed to a situation over which they had no control, they would continue to feel helpless, even in situations where they did have control.
For those of us who fell into "Doormat Syndrome" either before or after, with or without infidelity, Learned Helplessness is the culprit.
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You were an awesome boyfriend, but still got dumped or a wonderful husband who still got cheated on. You�ve always been a good person, but your father died when you were in college, while the [censored] out there still get to go on fishing trips with their dads. You put your heart and soul into your job, but got passed over for the promotion. You worked your butt off in law school, but you still can�t find a job.
When these kinds of things happen, you lose an important sense of control over your life; you stop believing you�re the captain of your destiny. You followed the rules, but you still got screwed. You feel disillusioned, and it becomes easy to develop a jaded, passive �What�s the point?� philosophy that informs all areas of your life.
But having such an experience doesn�t guarantee that you�ll develop �learned helplessness.�
During his research, Seligman noticed a curious phenomena; in all the experiments, a consistent ratio emerged: 2/3 of the test subjects which had experienced a situation over which they had no control developed �learned helplessness,� while the other third did not. They were able to see the helpless situation as an isolated event, and bounce back to proactively face future challenges.
Dr. Seligman wanted to know the secret of the 1/3 who felt helpless in one situation, but didn�t carry this feeling over to new challenges. Why did the exact same events produce such different responses? The answer turned out to be something called explanatory style.
I'm sure we have part of that lucky 3rd here. I'm not in it, so I'm trying to escape that other 2/3s and take as many men with me as I can!
Quote
Dr. Seligman discovered that the difference between those who were able to bounce back and those who were susceptible to learned helplessness was rooted in the different ways people explain the things that happen to them.
Seligman argues that our interpretation of events can be broken down into three categories:
Personalization (internal vs. external) Pervasiveness (specific vs. universal) Permanence: (temporary vs. permanent).
The authors of The Resilience Factor helpfully rename these categories in an easier to remember way and explain their meaning:
Me/Not Me Always/Not Always Everything/Not Everything:
�A �Me, Always, Everything� person automatically, reflexively believes that he caused the problem (me), that it is lasting and unchangeable (always), and that it will undermine all aspects of his life (everything).When problems arise, a �Not Me, Not Always, Not Everything person believes that other people or circumstances caused the problem (not me), that it is fleeting and changeable (not always), and that it will not affect much of his life (not everything).�
The Misconception: If you are in a bad situation, you will do whatever you can do to escape it.
The Truth: If you feel like you aren�t in control of your destiny, you will give up and accept whatever situation you are in.
The same study is referenced at YANSS, but it goes into more detail about the concept. I happen to think the author's writing style makes the subject matter more approachable.
Quote
When battered women, or hostages, or abused children, or long-time prisoners refuse to escape, they do so because they have accepted the futility of the attempt. What does it matter?
If those people do get out of their situation, they often have a hard time committing to anything which may lead to failure.
Any extended period of negative emotions can lead to you giving in to despair and accepting your fate. If you remain alone for a long time, you will decide loneliness is a fact of life and pass up opportunities to hang out with people.
The loss of control in any situation will lead to this state.
Infidelity, or any other marital melt-down for that matter, definitely feels like a loss of control. Thankfully, if you are here reading this, on this forum, on this site - and you have read the materials available - you are learning how to exert control over yourself. You are also learning how to influence your marital situation in a proven manner. Kudos to you!
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A study in 1976 by Langer and Rodin showed in nursing homes where conformity and passivity is encouraged and every whim is attended to, the health and wellbeing of the patients declines rapidly. If, instead, the people in these homes are given responsibilities and choices, they remain healthy and active.
This research was repeated in prisons. Sure enough, just letting prisoners move furniture and control the television kept them from developing health problems and staging revolts.
In homeless shelters where people can�t pick out their own beds or choose what to eat, the residents are less likely to try and get a job or find an apartment.
When you are able to succeed at easy tasks, hard tasks feel possible to accomplish. When you are unable to succeed at small tasks, everything seems harder.
In my opinion, learned helplessness is a contributor to catastrophizing, which we have visited once and will revisit later in the resiliency series.
Baby steps, gentleman. Small successes.
"If you are scientifically literate, the world looks very different to you. It's not just a lot of mysterious things happening, there's a lot we understand out there, and that understanding empowers you - to first not be taken advantage of, by others that do understand it. And, second... there are issues that confront society, that have science as their foundation..." - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Excellent article HHH I read it on the site and your commentary in relationships is right on
The ability to have flexible thinking when put in the test of the impossible task a very important part of resiliency IMO
Also the ability to accept our limitations without giving up and thinking it's final. Allowing guilt and shame and it associated fear to rule internally.
Ok so we know that giving someone an unsermoutable task that leads to failure screws up Thier confidence Such is the wisdom we teach our children within Thier capacity Hope fully encouraging them again using hope as we go along
So what about adults who want to escape from reality into a " childhood " they never had? How do we get them to see the wild college life and all the party's they "missed out on" that is portrayed on movies or "girls gone wild" was not as glamourous as they appear?
Let's take a small example I have heard many women use about Thier hubby's
H wants wife to be a paragon of virtue all day but at night the horniest bimbo in the bedroom. Wanting him with unbridled passion
Now I am not saying. This is not possible it's just a lot to carry in the real world
Then of course the guy has to be whatever fantasy W is buying into also to even be interesting enough to get excited about sleeping with them
Then we have the media which could care less about our personal relationships as long as they sell us something ( I wonder if "Twilight" will ever get shown on PBS)
The media wants to sell us a standard and for us to "buy" into it one way $ or another
Guys fall for porn and or maybe even hookers because inside they feel," they WANT me" but all they want is center stage and control of it. The guy is just a " tool"( no pun intended), to have control because they can. Ok it's an easy way out but we can refuse to let them have it. It's up to us and our security in being alone
So the challenge to me is to rise above emotions when it comes down to the choices that shape everybody's lives I am connected to and not only that, but to be happy being there alone. Because in objectivity I can make decisions not made foggy by my own emotions or fears.
Where will I find support for my emotions if I cannot depend on another human being for unconditional love? Human love is conditional we talk about it every day here and the vows we give at marriage show that even God knows it is
But as a Man I/we must find a source of strength outside other people that speaks to us personally as well as carries objective truth
From experience I have felt God never lied to me and gives me the truth One day I will die and cannot take any part of this world with me I will suffer trials and tribulations and have great times of sorrow but wisdom will come out of those times that will prove more precious than Gold I am as free as I accept that the world does not revolve around me and will continue to be filled with good and evil, it's up to me to pick what I want to support.
If to rise above is to trancend the wicked ways of the world and life itself and not live in fear of the consequences of peoples reaction to fear I think I will find myself alone very often because human nature cannot be trusted
To follow other people who exhibit what we could call Gods character still falls short of the divine we are seeking. To me they are just examples of humility and strength forged from somewhere else on the uniververse
To be real we must agree that in truth we are alone with our conscience/God and must trust the lessons we learn from It as a gift, not a condemnation.
Now this is all about personal relationships with others where God works, and if in our conscience we believe in "love thy neighbor as thyself ", and personal acccoutabilty to how you treat others. I don't know how else I could pull that off without God. As my authority. Cause I would have killed so many people by now...Lol
Ok so we know that giving someone an unsermoutable task that leads to failure screws up Thier confidence Such is the wisdom we teach our children within Thier capacity Hope fully encouraging them again using hope as we go along
So what about adults who want to escape from reality into a " childhood " they never had? How do we get them to see the wild college life and all the party's they "missed out on" that is portrayed on movies or "girls gone wild" was not as glamourous as they appear?
Let's take a small example I have heard many women use about Thier hubby's
H wants wife to be a paragon of virtue all day but at night the horniest bimbo in the bedroom. Wanting him with unbridled passion
Now I am not saying. This is not possible it's just a lot to carry in the real world
Then of course the guy has to be whatever fantasy W is buying into also to even be interesting enough to get excited about sleeping with them
Then we have the media which could care less about our personal relationships as long as they sell us something ( I wonder if "Twilight" will ever get shown on PBS)
The media wants to sell us a standard and for us to "buy" into it one way $ or another
Guys fall for porn and or maybe even hookers because inside they feel," they WANT me" but all they want is center stage and control of it. The guy is just a " tool"( no pun intended), to have control because they can. Ok it's an easy way out but we can refuse to let them have it. It's up to us and our security in being alone
So the challenge to me is to rise above emotions when it comes down to the choices that shape everybody's lives I am connected to and not only that, but to be happy being there alone. Because in objectivity I can make decisions not made foggy by my own emotions or fears.
Where will I find support for my emotions if I cannot depend on another human being for unconditional love? Human love is conditional we talk about it every day here and the vows we give at marriage show that even God knows it is
But as a Man I/we must find a source of strength outside other people that speaks to us personally as well as carries objective truth
From experience I have felt God never lied to me and gives me the truth One day I will die and cannot take any part of this world with me I will suffer trials and tribulations and have great times of sorrow but wisdom will come out of those times that will prove more precious than Gold I am as free as I accept that the world does not revolve around me and will continue to be filled with good and evil, it's up to me to pick what I want to support.
If to rise above is to trancend the wicked ways of the world and life itself and not live in fear of the consequences of peoples reaction to fear I think I will find myself alone very often because human nature cannot be trusted
To follow other people who exhibit what we could call Gods character still falls short of the divine we are seeking. To me they are just examples of humility and strength forged from somewhere else on the uniververse
To be real we must agree that in truth we are alone with our conscience/God and must trust the lessons we learn from It as a gift, not a condemnation.
Now this is all about personal relationships with others where God works, and if in our conscience we believe in "love thy neighbor as thyself ", and personal acccoutabilty to how you treat others. I don't know how else I could pull that off without God. As my authority. Cause I would have killed so many people by now...Lol
Typical thing-- WW with a BH that stays home with the kids while she keeps an apartment. He needs to put his foot down, but is worried his wife will leave if he does. You know the drill.
Another future (hopefully) member of the "Return of Man" club. I'll even clean up our pizza box and empties and get out of here if you can help convince him that laying down for his wife will not make her respect him.
totally been there myself. Just starting to break the habit. Its a whole new world when that clears
Shoot, I think my thread drug on for months before I got fed up. Sometimes you just have to get pissed off, get down in the gutter with the bad guys and take whatever comes as a result of standing up for yourself.
WW's like those in Jeremka's thread really get me riled up sometimes. Especially when there are kids involved. I don't know if some of those betrayeds (like Jeremka) understand that we get on them because we actually give a damn, or if they think we're just clueless to the specifics of their situation and are being too gung-ho. Doesn't matter, probably.
I am grateful now that you guys give a damn. Thank you. [/quote]
Shoot, I think my thread drug on for months before I got fed up. Sometimes you just have to get pissed off, get down in the gutter with the bad guys and take whatever comes as a result of standing up for yourself.
WW's like those in Jeremka's thread really get me riled up sometimes. Especially when there are kids involved. I don't know if some of those betrayeds (like Jeremka) understand that we get on them because we actually give a damn, or if they think we're just clueless to the specifics of their situation and are being too gung-ho. Doesn't matter, probably.
Ya know whats funny strange, not funny haha, I did it all completly backwards. 1. First wife tried for two years after her affair and OC to fix it, but when she started up partying with her Sister again...sent her away knowing it was gonna hurt but it was the right thing to do.. and had hope that someday who knew..but there was a future..I was 22 and was married at 18 and had a great job and carreer path.
2. Second wife, got this one pregnant out of wedlock, 27 years old, put up with alcoholism and toattally crappy treatment way to long, and then finnally sent her away for what I thought was for good, and then fell apart and was needy and weak enough to get involved again with someone else...then when that fell apart went back to her an even more broken man...
3. After that I stayed, 1989 till she passed away in 2009,and would not budge, took all manner of crap, did the "suffering servent martyr" act, and when she relapsed into drinking and drugs as the last stage of selfishness, fell apart and chased her.
It seems that I was more desperate as time went on, and less confidant of the future, having "learned helplessness" ingrained into me over time. "gaslighting" was definetly part of it, but one would think it would go the other way around. I guess something inside said, "Aw you are so awesome and have been such a confidant capable man, maybe you should be more nice and forgiving, as a matter of fact, thats your problem, you don't forgive enough"
Mel said in a sig line.."Misplaced compassion gives way to evil" or something to that effect. I guess sympathy for the devil is also an appropiate decription.
Such is it when you belong/join a church that would rather feel sorry you are possessed with demons, than see you free of them, to keep you coming back, insisting if you don't, you will die.
I know all churchs do not work that way, and if I was sure that they knew that was what they were doing, I would campaign against them with all my heart and soul. But that was how my wife was used by them, and she was tottally emotionally enthralled,(meaning enslaved), with it. I was just to close to the end product,(lost wife), to trust my instincts or judgement about them.
Funny thing is, as I got older, you would think I would be smarter and wiser, instead I went backward. Guess there is no fool like an old fool.
HHH-Just spent some time on this thread. You are one deep dude.
I have a lot to learn about being a man, which you know from my own saga.
mike
Just my opinion, but we all still have a lot to learn about that.
One of the men I greatly respect on the forums has the the name, "Just Learning"..I don't think we ever stop.
We can stop. We can choose to remain as we are, become monuments to ourselves and our egos, opinions, beliefs - and be a living preservation of a moment of time in our minds.
I know plenty of men (and women, for that matter) who are just that - emotional and intellectual statues.
We can stop. We can choose to remain as we are, become monuments to ourselves and our egos, opinions, beliefs - and be a living preservation of a moment of time in our minds.
I know plenty of men (and women, for that matter) who are just that - emotional and intellectual statues.
It is not admirable.
Yeah like if we could freeze a moment in time where it was all perfect, but those times, good and bad, allways pass and are part of our process of living..
What good would it be to not be able to remember your first kiss, with all the mistakes and possible fantasies attached to it, if you could not reflect on the whole experience, as the past, because you have grown and changed since then? If you cannot appreciate the change, you cannot appreciate the time..
I am sure I am joined by many, that in the realm of marriage, what we first percieved as the reasons we keep the vows, have changed to deeper reasons we could not have understood, unless we kept them. By the same token, we later learn what can happen if we don't, and then see the wisdom in them.
Us guys have to keep moving forward, even when our world gets shattered, and do the thing that will lead us out of the woods..open our minds and think, learn, allow a new life to grow from the ashes of the past. Its a shame that our marriage partners make plans on how that is supposed to make them feel, and do not trust the vows made before the one who created marraige, and the authority on love. Then they leave when they can't control the feelings inside themselves instead of understanding them, or at least trying to. There are many avenues of denial, even God can become one for the really extreme cases, but where else would they go if they were forced to go there last in desparation? Nothing else works, they are at the end of themselves, and they can't fix thier life. I wish I could say that I had the humility to go to God every moment I experienced fear in my life. Some people find Scriptures and understanding and the healing of that and never let go after as they let it help them grow the rest of thier lives, some stop short in the forgiveness mode but still cannot accept that they need help, so they walk the fence. The most important part is the will of the person and thier freedom in making the decision. Once they own thier issues they can start to deal with them, it seems some never get to that part, and it is a mystery.
I think it is pretty common but definatly in my case I as a Christian took on Gods role instead of being obedient to what he says. I or anyone else is not supposed to endure dis-respect, adultry, within a marriage to the point of it destroying everything around us, including us. " Obedience not sacrifice" is needed to protect us. Sacrificing ourselves for someone who is consumed with themselves feeling they will "get it" that we love them and appreciate us again is a scary road that can lead to being a doormat if we let it go to far. As long as the focus of thier lives is on them, reguardless of the reason, they will continue to use people as thier provision from God, and think that those people can take what God can, and forget they are human too.
I have allways respected the discipline of those able to do what was right while enduring pain. Its mostly a guy thing I think when we talk about physical pain, but you cannot leave women out of that because they are accually built physically to endure more than men and still function, and then if you look at the examples of feats of strength and sacrifice women have performed, like the 40 something old women who picked a car up off her husband when it fell on him, ripping her back up and disclocating like 5 discs, you can see that women can muster amazing strength in the right situations.
But as a man, I allways looked at the determination that comes from our physical makeup,(muscles, testosrzone<sp>, and combative nature),mixed with our convictions on right and wrong, to be where our endurance and conviction to go to war and ignore as much pain as possible. In all conflicts, battles, or challanges, we are called to ignore the uncomfortable to the excruciating pain while facing obstacles that we believe need to be overcome.
At a young age I was faced with the obstacle of healing and making my Dad happy, because it was evident he was not, the same for my Mom, but she was not in the same place as my Dad. I just wanted to be a good son, a great son, one that made his family and God proud, but circumstances a little kid doesn't get confused me, and it became an obsession, that I thought was normal, a just cause, a test and way to rise above from above. I am not complaining, its just what it was, as a matter of fact I am glad I could see my Dads heart, and my Moms. I saw it as something I could do my part, or even more if nessesary, to help.
All I wanted was to be normal and/or better than that and have a happy family. In a disfunctional home described in Alanon,(Thought there was no drug abuse in my disfuntional home), they would describe my as having a hero complex as the child, needing to save his family. The other extreme is denial, I saw my sister fall into that. I could only attribute my peace orientated attitude to life to the spirituality of my mother. Her calm confidance and amazing heart of a servant for everyone gave me hope when all the fears I had as a youth were attacking me. It would have been better if it was my Dad who comforted me but like I said, he had problems, and one of them was his inability to come down to a childs level of understanding. I feel that something must have happened to him as a child, even though his parents and brother were so vastly different, I can't imagine.
So what the point? I was set up.. Maybe not on purpose but still set up because my Dads dreams of buying a house outwieghed his concern for his familys emotional welfare. He was right and the world was against him, and it even became his family when things did not go his way..Mom divorced Dad when I was 17 and he went off the deep end.
But this is a marraige site right? What has that to do with marraige? Set up?---- Familiar but unhealthy emotional habits...developed as a child.. understood intelectually..but still rooted in the heart, mind, and that whole life experience we call the soul. Like Pablovs dog, and the learned helplessness lesson, it was familiar to endure emotional abuse, and somehow call it sacrifice for God, as it was learned as a child.
Before I met my second wife, I knew it would take some time to do whatever work I needed to do on myself before I could trust myself in a new relationship. I had planned to get some phyche courses, sociology courses, and therapy while I was in colledge. My main interest was in law enforcement with the focus on really helping people. I had seen the damage people do when they were selfish and did not consider others.
But this women had something I did not recognize until later. We clicked in so many ways, she came from a severely extreme alcohol background but had also been the "hero" type. The one who was forced to save everybody being the first born.
But what I felt was a connection to someone with a familiar cause for people and understanding about the mind, discipline, and the importance of truth, was also a connection to someone who had that,"learned helplessness" thing, in her case it branched over into alcohol, and there again I thought I could help and it was possible because she was, by her testimony, born again, and completly healed, and she also knew the bible much better than I.
So what was my excuse for sleeping with her out of wedlock? Don't have one that is worth spit so ...But I am sure I had an excuse and I am sure I felt entitled somehow and did the throw my hands up in the air.."Oh well things will work out.." thing that is so common when you have lived in drama and do not do what you need to avoid it. Learned helplessness or hopelessness IDK but I allowed desparation in and fear of loss thats for certain.
In our emotions, to bring this all back to point, I think that both of us were the answer to some childhood dream each of us had, and that childhood dream was a lie.
If I had said to her "look you have a problem with drinking so if you go to AA about it maybe we can work out but if not its ok lets just be freinds.."
Or if she had said "You do not measure up to the standard of man that I respect like I do my Pastor, as a christian, do not believe as I do, do not believe someone can "backslide", so I will continue to drink until I decide I want to quit, or God moves me, and we should just be freinds"
Well that would have been the responsible intelligent adult and Godly choice for us, our children, and the areas of society and family that have been damaged by our getting together.
But the real point is..Trust in the disiplines no matter how it feels, because they can be trusted as they mold your character. The disiplines never change and thier benifets allways seem to profit us as they change us. Its scary sometimes when it seems dark, but we are allways changing anyways.
Then someday we can look back on the past and say. I was perfect for where I was at the time all things considered. Compared to now I was was dumb and foolish but my heart was where it was and doing what it felt was right at the time. My intentions were good, I loved passionatly, and I was taught to love even more deeply because I changed, I grew, I was broken and built up again into who I am today. Both the man I was then and am now are valuable and worthy of love, and life is for learning.
I have always respected the discipline of those able to do what was right while enduring pain. Its mostly a guy thing I think when we talk about physical pain, but you cannot leave women out...
FWW and I were watching the movie Radio for the 157th time the other night. There is something about sports movies, or military movies, that always seem to resonate with men.
I didn't get it when I was a kid. My dad and his dang war movies... and John Wayne.
But, I get it. It's that action motivated by a dedication to something greater than self. It is, as you have stated CP, transcendence. Moving above and beyond the flesh of a man, and affecting something other than ourselves.
There was a part of me in conflict while watching that movie this last time. I watched, and I thought "What a damn fool, he's got a damaged relationship with his own child, and instead of fixing that, here he is putting all this time and effort into this person and not doing a thing about her..."
I have to admit to some selective memory, because I failed to remember what occurred later... the scene in the pickup truck where he admits his life's greatest shame - having seen a young boy about his age caged, filthy, and abused underneath the porch of a house on his paper route. About having never said anything to anyone that whole time, and never telling anyone until the moment he told his daughter.
More of us have these shames than we'd like to admit. Most of us would never risk the sacrifice involved in a situation like that - he risked his family, his job, his reputation to touch the life of one other person who needed someone's care more than anyone else he knew.
And, I still shake my head and think "What a fool..." I gambled on my own direct improvement to better things for my own family, and bet more than I had to pay.
I am having a hard time finding other, non-print resources which aren't geared towards single man-children...
(At least, pertaining to the flavor of the thread)
I did find an article which correlates with "Legacy" in the "Switches of Manliness" series. Found it funny, it was about how femininity is a birthright, whereas masculinity is earned, and has to be constantly validated.
And then... related articles either had to do with "macho men" or homosexuality.
So, that's it guys. We can either be cavemen, or girlfriends.
(I did, however, find an excellent writing on "Bromance")
Of course I am a fan of AoM, YANSS, aaaaaaaaaand, I have a few other sites I have yet to share that I frequent.
It is to be noted, that the author of AoM is Christian, but I happen to enjoy the site because this presence isn't overbearing into each and every subject broached.
Some of you who want a little more faith or biblical based discussion may find these two sites interesting, though;
Er... nevermind. The second site is a program. It is linked from TM, and TM is run by the director of the program. Follow the yellow link road if you find your interest piqued.
Feel free to share anything you find that you find relevant!
Lance Armstrong: Could I get a bottle of water. - - Hey, aren't you Peter La Fleur?
Peter La Fleur: Lance Armstrong!
Lance Armstrong: Yeah, that's me. But I'm a big fan of yours. Peter La Fleur: Really?
Lance Armstrong: Yeah, I've been watching the dodgeball tournament on the Ocho. ESPN 8. I just can't get enough of it. But, good luck in the tournament. I'm really pulling for you against those jerks from Globo Gym. I think you better hurry up or you're gonna be late.
Peter La Fleur: Uh, actually I decided to quit... Lance.
Lance Armstrong: Quit? You know, once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit. So what are you dying from that's keeping you from the finals?
Peter La Fleur: Right now it feels a little bit like... shame.
Lance Armstrong: Well, I guess if a person never quit when the going got tough, they wouldn't have anything to regret for the rest of their life. But good luck to you Peter. I'm sure this decision won't haunt you forever.
This little exchange from Dodgeball was gut-bustingly funny, but at the same time... so damn true. A Peds Doc and I were riffing on it a few weeks ago.
It came to mind again today when I was reading about Marcus Luttrell;
Quote
In 2005, four Navy SEALs were in the middle of a recon mission in Afghanistan when they were discovered by three goat herders. Rather than killing them, the SEALs decided to let them go. The goat herders then repaid the SEALs' kindness by giving away their position to the Taliban, which in military terms is known as "a [jerk] move."
The SEALs were encircled by somewhere between 50 to 200 Taliban fighters and had to decide whether to fight or surrender. After some careful consideration the leader of the patrol, Lt. Murphy, announced their decision: "FiretrUCK surrender." During the ensuing battle, one Marcus Luttrell was knocked out by an RPG and fell down a ravine. Turns out he was the lucky one: all the other SEALs were killed.
His nose was broken, three vertebrae were cracked and he had been shot in the leg. Luttrell couldn't even call a rescue chopper on the radio, because that would have involved showing himself in the middle of hostile territory. Not so big on the idea of dying in a ditch, Luttrell started crawling through the mountains. At this point he was attacked by six Al Qaeda assassins, and because he was so wounded, he surrendered.
Just kidding -- he killed them all.
Luttrell made it seven miles through the mountains and was dehydrated to the point where he was licking his own sweat. He later fell off a ridge and was discovered by Afghan villagers, who took him in and cleaned his wounds. They also protected him from the Taliban -- by some incredible strike of luck, Luttrell had fallen into the lap of a village that was bound by tribal custom to defend their visitors to the death. When word got out that the villagers were openly sheltering an American soldier, the Taliban was forced to respect the age-old custom, in the sense that they tried to bribe the villagers, beat up their kids and threatened to kill entire families.
The villagers moved Luttrell back and forth to keep him away from the Taliban, who were lurking in the mountains. And then, after six hellish days of fighting the Taliban and dragging himself through the mountains, Luttrell was rescued by American forces. When Army Rangers found him, the first thing he did was apologize for dragging them out into the cold.
Now, we could start off by saying that Navy Seals are a breed apart. Yet, they are still "just men." I had the pleasure of having a classmate in a former Seal who took discharge for PTSD - not because of the inhumanity of war, but because of his own humanity.
In one of his routine patrols during deployment, a young boy rushed the squad - this man, having been trained to act fast shot and killed the boy. That day, in his heart and mind, ended his military career. He had served 13 years in the US Navy before asking for his discharge. 7 years from retirement.
I cannot imagine the anguish he felt. He simply stated that it had left him broken, as he had a young son here at home the same age as the boy whose life he took.
He could have fallen into a bottle forever (and he did for a short time), yet he hit a point where he dusted himself off, and decided to try to give back. He is now a chemical dependency counselor at the drug and alcohol treatment center here in our valley.
Quote
I've failed over and over and over again in my life and that is why I succeed. - Michael Jordan
"...I've been blown up, shot, and left for dead. And one thing I kept doing was I just kept getting back up and going after it. No matter what life throws at you, the one thing you gotta believe in, is you gotta believe in yourself." - Petty Officer Marcus Lattrel US Navy, retired - author of Lone Survivor
I�ve got a number on a napkin, a poundin in my head Takes everything I�ve got to crawl out of bed I lost a hell of a woman, freedom caught me on the chin But I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.
The sun came up again this morning. I got a call from a long lost friend. Planned us a little road trip down to New Orleans. It ain�t much but it beats where I�ve been.
Yea I�m doin alright, I�m doin alright, I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.
Well I�m gettin better at barely gettin by When I look at her picture I don�t break down and cry. And all this time on my hands it�s gettin easier to spend Cause I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.
The sun came up again this morning, I took my old fastback for a spin. Now when it rains it ain�t always pouring and I�m learning how to live again
Yea I�m doin alright, I�m doin alright, I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.
Yea I�m doin alright, yes I�m doin alright, yea I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.
Yes I�m doin alright, yea I�m doin alright, yea I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.
P.S. I have asked this several times now for different posters. Please let me know if I should stop, OK? NOT intended to add to your pain or add a burden at all, but rather I just know where your watering hole is. HHH, you own this thread, so you can tell me to stop the SOS's if I am intruding, as well as anyone else.
Seriuosly tho, Happy Fathers Day to all who have the priveledge of loving and protecting the innocent and vulnerable wherever you happen to be tonight. God Bless you.
Ok Guys clean up the beercans and put away the videogames. Fathers day is over.
Lol, ever notice how as men, young or old, we tend to respond to direct communication that pushes aside assumptions, feelings, or being lead by moods to do what is right, as we respond to a trusted authority? We respond to what is clear, even though at the time we might not "feel" like it.
HHH you know I prescribed to AoM and get the newsletters. As I have been allways told and taught as a child, most of our issues, feelings, motivations, strengths, well...everything was in our head and had to do with our perception.
So as a child finding myself in the place of thinking on my own, but also sensing not everything that surrounded me was right on, I turned to education of the grey matter between my ears as the only real means of dealing with the world around me.
As I also was active as any kid, doing the boy stuff like hiking into the woods until I had just enough time to get home before it got dark, if I could find my way...Climbing to the top of the tree i was told i would get killed doing, you know, challanging myself..became a part of that process of using our minds.
One of the best things I have gotten in my life is the realization of how I accually could visualize and make a plan for the future. Before that, it was just doing what was expected, and feeling out of control and aimless. When I started to and beleived in a plan, I started to make sense and life became much clearer naturally.
Then of course when I read this in the Old Testement, Moses had written, "Without a vision the people perish", well I understood it much more easily than before. To bad it took till I was 16 to realize I could control my life, and it wasn't till I was in my early thirtys that I read the scripture, and realized, "Hey, God doesn't want me to be a mindless robot either, He wants me to have plans and execute them"
I got the Aom newsletter this week, and it had another switch of manliness, provide.. I was very intere4sted in this one as it relates outside of getting a paycheck into the bigger sort of provisions. It was also an great read full of good info I suggest men read it.
But here is thing that made me just have to post to the mens thread about, the difference in mens brains, chemistry, and makeup. As you might have known, I have seen more than few chemical imbalances/dependancy issues that have effected the people I loved, and to not share this tidbit of insight an info would have been just wrong.
I suggest any of the guys here, who have been wondering and looking for a way for them to understand what is going on with thier feelings, emotions, and life, to read the Man switch articles and the one about providing specifically, its not about working and life being a grind where you pull in a paycheck alone, its much more.
One of the footnotes from The Aom article had this article about Dopamine, the left, brain, women and men. from a Psychocology Today Blog, about evolutionary traits which struck me as another distinction in the chemcal mix we all have between our ears as natures fantastic natural battery, and as men how and why we are so different.
I hope it helps others as it helped me to understand more also.
Hey guys, new reader here. I have been posting on the SAA portion of the site and was told to check this thread out. You all are doing great work here so I'm going to keep reading.
Surf and BX, look at it like this, How often does Dad get to really use that hottub Mom insisted they get installed for him? His complete set of tools for woodworking, the nice office chair and desk?
We are allways running around doin stuff and don't take the time for ourselves. when I am not engrossed in someone elses thread I have been following I do come here and read the Aom site also, but sometimes I don't have the time, and i should, like all of us guys, take/make the time.
Geez if my kids were not all grown up and my wife passed on I would not have the time for socializing outside of work anyways lol.
Yeah we are guys,, grunt grunt, oomph oomph, razzel-frazzle-raz-a-ret.
Seriuosly though you guys can say of post whatever you want here also. questions, topics of interest, observations and comments. Its for all us guys, not just for bigmouths like me Lol.
Me again! Could someone look in on Unhappybs over on SAA?
Dunno, Surfer. Just read through 11 pages and got to the end and...well, been there before but, using the same rationale as he did (his kids), I took a different path. The thing is, when you're pissed off at the world for where you're at, you don't tend to listen to too much advice.
It looked like the folks there gave him a good run, though. Hope he gets motivated.
Here is something I have been interested in for awhile. I think it is worthy of the Mans thread because this article is about men and adultry, but I believe wholeheartedly there is so much nessesary information here for general health issues that men should look into this Dr. and his science. Here is a short excerpt from his site Here
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When the brain works right, you work right. When the brain is troubled, you generally experience trouble in your relationships, work, or within yourself. Since the brain is well recognized as the organ of behavior, it makes sense that brain problems, such as Alzheimer's disease, attention deficit disorder, schizophrenia or brain trauma is likely to decrease a person's effectiveness in life. Your success in life is associated with how well your brain works. This principle leads to an important paradigmatic shift: if you see someone who's "not right" then it may not be "them" or their "personality", it may not even be their upbringing or environment (directly) but in the here and now it's a matter of their brain not working properly. WHY it's not working properly is a question not easily answered by saying he or she has a personality disorder, but the **big triumph** comes when people begin to say not "what's the matter with YOU?" but "What's the matter with your BRAIN?" when someone's behaving poorly.
The brain is the most complicated organ in the universe. There is nothing as complex as the human brain. Nothing. It is estimated that we have 100 billion neurons or nerve cells and trillions of supportive brain cells called glial cells. Each neuron is connected to other neurons by up to 40,000 individual connections between cells. You have more connections in your brain than there are stars in the universe. Also, even though your brain is only about two percent of your body's weight, it uses twenty five to thirty percent of the calories you consume. Your brain is the major energy consumer in the body.________________________________________________
Phychiatry does not look at the brain and the activity but still prescibes medication to alter our behavior. Its like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. Much of phyciatry is practiced the same as it was in Abe lincolns time and they are the only phyicians who don't look at the organ they treat.
For me its too much guesswork, and it doesn't have to be. Dr Amen has been on PBS and other shows explaining the science of SPECT scans and he also has a book with some really good information anyone would find helpful. I bought and read the book, and ya know what? My brain said it made sense.
Now here is the article about men and adultry issues
Here _________________________________________________
Brains Acting Badly: A New Twist on an Old Question
Faced with the recent surge of sex scandals, I have found myself holding back, not wanting to comment. They happen all the time, but somehow this season seems different, worse,� begins the article I wrote for the Huffington Post last week, on June 8, 2011.
�The ex-governor of California had his family torn apart by an affair he had a decade ago; the IMF leader was arrested for an alleged assault on a hotel maid; Senator John Edwards was recently indicted on cover-up charges related to his affair; and now married congressman Anthony Weiner admits to tweeting his genitals!
�Why are so many men acting badly? The easy answer is to just say that these men are high-testosterone-driven cheaters who choose to make bad decisions. They should be divorced, scorned and ridiculed. They should just say no and stop being so stupid, we think.
�But as a neuroscientist who has scanned tens of thousands of patients� brains over the last 20 years, many of whom were sex addicts, I know the brain tells a different story.�
Below is the rest of the article, in total.
There is an area in the front part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. It is also known as the executive brain because it acts like a boss at work. It is involved in forethought, judgment, impulse control, organization and planning. When there are problems in this part of the brain, men in particular are excitement-seeking and prone to exhibit poor judgment. And what is more exciting than illicit sex or tweeting your genitals?
I was on the �Dr. Phil� show last year for a feature we did on compulsive cheaters. I did a brain SPECT (single photon emission computed tomography) scan on Jose, who had cheated on his wife eight times in the four years they were together. His brain showed very low activity in his prefrontal cortex. He also had a brain injury pattern from playing football and mixed martial art fighting. From seeing his own scan, Jose developed brain envy and wanted a better brain. He did not want to be divorced and have his daughter raised by someone else. He did everything I asked.
Cheaters often experience the pain of rejection from their behavior and, with enough pain, can become motivated to change. Jose changed his habits, improved his nutrition, took some simple supplements to boost brain function and has not cheated on his wife for over a year. His follow-up brain scan also looked dramatically better. As we changed his brain, we also changed his life.
So what do we do with all these cheating men? Should we yell at them, belittle them, scold and scorn them? Or should we scan their brains? I think we should start by looking at their brains. How would we ever know if it was just bad behavior or a brain acting badly unless we looked? Psychiatrists, whom these people come to see for help, are the only medical professionals who rarely look at the organ they treat. Psychiatrists still make diagnoses today as they did in 1841, when Abraham Lincoln was depressed: by talking to people and looking for symptom clusters. Imagine if a cardiologist or an orthopedic doctor acted that way!
If the cheating man�s brain is healthy, then he should just deal with the fallout of his poor judgment and learn to behave better. If, however, he has brain dysfunction (as is often the case), perhaps from a brain injury in the past (a barbell dropped on his head, for example), or other prefrontal cortex problems (such as ADHD), then getting a brain makeover with appropriate treatment is essential. Just making these men, who have real brain dysfunction, feel more guilt and shame will not help solve their problems.
Your brain controls everything you do and all the decisions you make. When the brain works correctly, you work correctly. When the brain is troubled, you are much more likely to make troubled decisions. Whenever human frailties are involved, think about the brain. In our experience, with a thoughtful approach, the brain can be better, which will ultimately be better for the whole family___________________________________
So what man here ever uses tools to get something done? On a car when it has a small stutter do you use a computer scanner of just replace the engine, or even settle for poor performance? Being a mechanic for many years I have seen enough Mechanics shotgun problems as the customers went from one place to the other getting the ECM replaced, when if the tech had experience with the model he would know it was a faulty sensor and find the root problem.
"The difference between a Mechanic and a Surgeon is a Mechanic washes his hands before he pees and a Surgeon does it after"
The medical profession is going to move to this science in the future, but I believe the practice of prescription drugs and the politics of thier sales will leave people over medicated and/or not properly diagnosed for years.
"The physical Body is the temple of our soul", and in that the brain plays the biggest part of how we run our lives, care for ourselve and others we love.
This guy is worth looking into. His Spect Scans tell the story we all know sometimes to be true
Because the prefrontal cortex is the area we use the most to make our decsions, it is nesesary for us to have a healthy one. As a man who knows he needs good tools to do do a effecient job, I want to keep mine healthy. If you look at the scans from drug addiction, and realize that the chemicals they abuse shortcuts the need to process problems and make good desicions, you can get an extreme view of how much thinking and reasoning they avoid. Just look at the scans the inactivy is shocking.
Corelate that with what happens in the mind of the walkaway Wayward, how the dopamine hits they get from running away from working on the issues thier brain must process to make good decisions, you can figure they are not using the prefrontal cortex either.
Depression is part of a lot of activity going on in our minds. Its sometimes nessesary when people have struggles and they don't know how to deal with them. Aside from drugs, others use different escapes to take off the pressure that if they worked through it, they would find the answer.
So enjoy this science and if you want a good informative read I suggest the book. The link below is to a gallery of SPECT scans done on different medical diagnoses. Take your pick, and if you want to know more about how the different parts of the brain work, His book does prety well explain it.
Thanks. He is a scientist and blogger on Psychology Today, and the whole development behind that statement - the controversy and reaction to it - has been fascinating to observe.
Building Your Resiliency Part III: Taking Control of Your Life
�We lost 13 pilots in six months. And in nearly every case, the worst pilots died by their own stupidity.�-Chuck Yeager
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Among test pilots, Chuck Yeager�s attitude towards pilots who �augered in� was universal. In The Right Stuff, Tom Wolfe relates how test pilots loved to talk about flying at every chance, and how the discussion would inevitably turn to why the latest pilot to have perished in an accident had done himself in. It was always the pilot�s fault. Even if a piece of equipment had malfunctioned, the consensus was that the pilot should have double-checked it before taking off. Nearly every death was caused by pilot error, plain and simple.
To the average joe, this might seem like a callous attitude, but when you�re going to a funeral every other week, burying a guy who�s doing the same job as you, you have to believe that you�re in control of your life, 100%. Otherwise, you�re never going to get into that cockpit again.
These men had the �right stuff.� Their unshakable belief in their ability to control their destiny set them apart from other men. You may not be flying planes, but you too can stop being a victim, strap into the cockpit, and take control of your life.
Ownership. Responsibility. Action.
I don't know if it's a summer rash, or a corner turned in my own reasoning... but, as I watch people here sit and complain about the actions of their spouses, I find myself asking; "Great, so what are you doing?"
Taking control of your life begins with taking control of YOU.
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Feeling in Control: The Foundation of Your Resiliency
In the last part of our series, we discussed an experiment in which dogs who had been given electric shocks and no recourse to stop the pain �learned helplessness.�
It was the experience of not being in control that left them depressed and defeated and sapped their resiliency.
The need to feel in control in our lives cannot be overstated. In Stumbling on Happiness, Dr. Daniel Gilbert argues:
�Being effective-changing things, influencing things, making things happen-is one of the fundamental needs with which the human brain seem to be naturally endowed, and much of our behavior from infancy onward is simply an expression of this penchant for control�The fact is that human beings come into the world with a passion for control, they go out of the world the same way, and research suggests that if they lose their ability to control things at any point between their entrance and exit, they become unhappy, helpless, hopeless, and depressed. And occasionally dead.�
The dead part refers to a pair of studies done to test the link between feelings of control and health.
In the first study, the elderly residents of a nursing home were each given a houseplant and divided into two groups-the high control group and the low control group. The high control group was told that the plant�s care was in their hands while the plants in the low control group were taken care of by a staff member. The results at the end of the study were startling-30% of the members of the low control group had died, compared to only 15% of the members of the high control group.
A follow-up study garnered similar results. College students were paired with residents at another nursing home. One group of the elderly residents (the low control group) could not control when the students would come; the student would set the appointment date. The high control group was able to dictate when the students would visit. �After two months, the residents in the high control group were happier, healthier, more active, and taking fewer medications than those in the low control group.�
If feeling in control of a houseplant can prolong your life, imagine the effect that feeling in control of even bigger things can have on your happiness, confidence, and resiliency.
In marriage, you can control YOUR actions, or you can let your REACTIONS to your spouse's actions control you.
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Having an Internal vs. External Locus of Control
In the 1950′s, psychologist Julian Rotter theorized that much of human behavior can be explained by whether a person has an internal or external locus of control. Locus means �place� in Latin, so these categories denote whether a person is controlled by external or internal factors. Those with an external locus of control believe that their behavior is guided by fate, luck, and other external factors. Those with an internal locus of control believe that their behavior is guided by their own actions and decisions. People don�t fit into one extreme or the other, rather the two categories represent the opposite ends of a continuum.
Having an external or internal locus of control has a profound influence on behavior:
Those with an internal locus of control:
Are confident that they can be successful. Tend to be leaders (leading those with an external locus of control). Exhibit greater control over their behavior. Seek to learn as much as they can. Take personal responsibility for their actions. Deal with challenge and stress better. Use challenges to come out stronger than before. Thrive in the midst of change. Are less likely to submit to authority.
Those with an external locus of control:
Feel like they�re a victim. Are quick to blame everyone but themselves. Want to be led by others. Avoid responsibility. Are more prone to stress, anxiety, and depression
Those with an internal locus of control are achievement-oriented and more likely to find academic and professional success. Because they believe they�re in control of their destiny, they�re eager to tackle challenges, while those with an external locus of control are apt to say �Why bother? It doesn�t matter what I do anyway.�
Additionally, Dr. Siebert, author of the Resiliency Advantage, argues that �both sets of beliefs are self-validating and self-fulfilling. People who believe that their fate is under the control of outside forces act in ways that confirm their beliefs. People who know they can do things to make their life better act in ways to confirm their beliefs.�
There are online tests you can take (here and here) to get an idea of whether you have a more internal or external locus of control.
Change. Your. Beliefs.
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Stop Being a Victim and Take Control of Your Life
Men are more likely to have an internal locus of control than women, which perhaps explains why rhetoric about being the captains of our destiny has always deeply resonated with us. And I would personally argue that much of our current crisis in manhood can be traced to men shifting from that natural mode of behavior to handing control of their lives over to external forces. Everything today is not our fault but is rather the result of a disease, addiction, or chemical imbalance.
The good news is that while your upbringing shapes your locus of control, it is possible to change it and become more internal than external.
Rotter grounded his ideas about locus of control in something called �expectancy-value theory,� which says that a person�s likelihood of taking an action is dependent on how much the person values a particular outcome and how much the person believes that taking the action will produce that outcome.
To put it in simple terms, and I hope this will be seared in every man�s mind: We blame others and play the victim when we don�t believe that we can solve a problem ourselves.
Non-resilient men play the �if only� game. These are the guys who claim that they would be the men they want to be�. �If only I had more time to exercise.� If only my wife didn�t nag me so much.� �If only my boss would stop being such an a-hole.� Their happiness is put on hold as they wait for circumstances and people to change.
The truth is this: people aren�t going to change. And if your happiness is contingent on them doing so, you�ve just handed control of your life over to them. If you let your co-workers/friends/girlfriend �make� you feel a certain way, you�ve stopped being an active agent in your life, and become a victim.
The resilient man understands that the only thing he can control is himself. Only he can change his circumstances and only he can control how he reacts to adversity. Circumstances don�t dictate your life-you dictate your life. The resilient man waits for no one to solve his problems; he is always actively trying to solve them himself.
That's what the vets here realize about the adultery fiasco many of the victims who come here are in the middle of. Is that they are just wincing from the gut punch, get back in there and fight
Many folks have this misunderstanding about God and that He is all about accepting our weaknesses and feeling sorry for us, then when we finally grab ahold of our testicles ( interesting that's where the word testimony comes from, because they were required to grasp them when speaking in the courts), they decide all that understanding and forgiveness stuff was for wussies
God is a God of War. Spiritual warfare. "No weapon forged by man shall prosper against us"
Before I forget, I want to mention this story from "The road less traveled" by Scott Peck. He notes that he saw a patient , an older man, who came to him with a minor problem. As he asked him about his life, and history, he was astounded by what this man had been through, yet he lead a pretty normal life now and was healthy at 60 yrs old. Dr Peck saw him only a couple times, and the man was fine after. It blows the theory that what has happened to us dictates our future or character traits and that just because life craps on you you have to act like the specific type of crap that lands on you That's resilency, taking control, you dictate your future.
"God hates a coward" a friend of mine used to say at the poker table. I wonder though, if He just seems to bless the fighters in life and we can appreciate that more as men.
As stated before, He is aGod of spiritual Warfare, he is just waiting for us to take our place in the ranks, and "A smoking flax he will not quench" means he we heal you and restore you because he needs His soldiers
So like every bruised reed, their comes a point where ya take control of your life and make it everything you want,take no prisoners, give no quarter to the negative thoughts of failure. You can stop and ponder over losses when your dead. Gods got that covered too
It's good I can help the other men to see the picture of the Godly man as a wimpy weakling is absolutely one of the biggest projections of crap Satan has managed to perpetuate upon society
Just posting here helps me. For as men we are "To be as Iron sharpening Iron" not Wet noodles stuck together in a pot.
Also the popular paranoia that goes around about how science goes against God just makes me laugh
Many of the greatest scientists have been believers
The propaganda that states to believe in God you must reject science just must really tick God off.
I am sure God wants us to take control of our life through knowledge and to reject knowledge,(science), would be to reject Him, for science reveals Him.
The fact that He has omni-science,(all-knowledge) does not mean he wants us to stand by and ask for a messiah to come and do our work for us
One of the greatest revealations I ever experienced was watching the movie "Tommy" and a line from the song "I'm free"
" If I told what it takes to reach the highest high You'd laugh and say nothings that simple But it's been told you many times before, messiahs pointing to the door, And no one has the guts to leave the Temple
I'm free. I'm free and freedom tastes of reality"
We cannot only change our life and this world God expects us to, and has given us the tools to do so
I am biased, as I thought you would do a great job either way.
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Miracles. Events with astronomical odds of occurring, like oxygen turning into gold. I've longed to witness such an event, and yet I neglect that in human coupling, millions upon millions of cells compete to create life, for generation after generation until, finally, your mother loves a man, Edward Blake, the Comedian, a man she has every reason to hate, and out of that contradiction, against unfathomable odds, it's you - only you - that emerged. To distill so specific a form, from all that chaos. It's like turning air into gold. A miracle.
From the smallest mistakes, miracles are born.
I have several mistakes... and the temptation to let them be regrets is often a heavy weight to bear. Yet, given the chance to unravel one mistake would utterly destroy the results of adaptations to that mistake.
What might that life be like? It's mind-bending, like the idea of Schr�dinger's cat. Are there several threads going forward from each decision, each unseen to the other?
Fact of the matter is, whatever I am now, and whatever I will be 10 years from now, both rely on failures and successes which were unfathomable until faced.
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We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
Looking back on the memory of The dance we shared 'neath the stars alone For a moment all the world was right How could I have known that you'd ever say goodbye
And now I'm glad I didn't know The way it all would end the way it all would go Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain But I'd have had to miss the dance
Holding you I held everything For a moment wasn't I a king But if I'd only known how the king would fall Hey who's to say you know I might have changed it all
And now I'm glad I didn't know The way it all would end the way it all would go Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain But I'd have had to miss the dance
Yes my life is better left to chance I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance
Research by Jennifer Bosson, Joseph Vandello (both psychology professors at the University of South Florida) and colleagues has tested the role of threatening men's masculinity in aggression.
According to these researchers, men's masculinity is something that is elusive (it must be earned) and tenuous (it must continually be proven). Put differently, men can easily lose their sense of masculinity and, in turn, when it is challenged, they respond to restore it. One prominent way males try to restore their masculinity is through aggression.
So how do these researchers challenge men's masculinity?
Some studies have had men complete a bogus test of "male knowledge." They are then either given positive or negative feedback (which would be the masculinity challenge) about how well they did. Other studies have had men tie either a rope, or braid her (the masculinity threat), while others have had them use feminine smelling hand lotion.
In response to these masculinity threatening tasks, men show heightened anxiety and thoughts of aggression. Interestingly, they also behave more aggressively, such as by choosing to hit a punching bag when given the option of that or a basketball task. Men who choose the punching task also punch harder and more often when their perceived masculinity is threatened. Further, such displays of aggression, when made public, have been found to reduce the anxiety men feel when doing these (perceived as) feminine tasks.
Interestingly, if men can affirm their masculinity (e.g., by saying "I am not gay") prior to being threatened, they do not display increased aggression.
These same studies (well many of them) did not find similar results for women.
A basic hope behind this research is that by making men more comfortable/secure with their masculinity, aggression could be reduced. After all, if the causes of aggression are not uncovered, aggression will never be alleviated.
And, stepping away from aggression, men perhaps in many cases don't do things they would otherwise enjoy for fear of being perceived as feminine. So, again, if ways can be found (except aggression) to solidify men's perceived masculinity, perhaps males can be "freed" psychologically to enjoy these things.
Or at the very least, maybe we can reach a point as a society where men don't feel weird holding their girlfriend or wife's purse.
How about holding her purse while she takes the baby to the car and you go thru the checkout buying diapers, tampons, and asking the hot young cashier for size X leggs panty hose in taupe please Yes I said taupe and I'm a man and no I'm not gay Feusha. Well I guess I am a man couldn't auter spell thatun rite
I have spent (invested?) a portion of this week trying to select an iconic view of the necessary spirit and strength for the BH's on this site who fight on, when "common sense" would suggest giving up the fight. I came up with these two, and they are dedicated to AM, TB, LnT, LM, TD, PTH, and the others who carry on the fight, BEING the examples that their children and OURS, should it ever come to that, will have when life deals them a shi++y hand.
Men of Harlech, on to glory, This will ever be your story. Keep these very words before ye: "Welshmen never yield!"
"...this story, shall a good man teach his sons......"
I don't have a whole lot right now. Been reading a bit online, mostly stuff about confidence etc. I really have to say I do not know who the heck that guy Reynolds was in September or October last year.
Weepy clingy needy sack of wet napkins. I get what he was going through but geez it kind of makes me sick!
I am in so much better of a place now. If we make it great, if we don't then I still have the world by the short and curlys.
I have been coming here less and less. When I do its to try to help newbies. Pay back some of my debt that I feel I still owe - especially to Wondering, Melody, Marital, too many to name. This place is a godsend. For all my sarcasim and screwing around if it wasn't for this forum I would literally be divorced right now, and not only that but a broken man spiritually as well.
Instead I am straining against my leash to get to the future. Just hope I can help a few others make the same leap, I owe that much to everyone who helped me!
Pc probs so usin iPhone just to check in That's awesome news reynolds and I know that difference when things get back in place
Yes these people here are gossamer aren, t they Like angels they are, and this being the mans thread, I have to agree with you and honor them.
I have a friend of mine, a very devout Christian man. What is remarkable is that he doesn't believe what I do here has any value What's remarkable is that this comes from one of the most tender guys you could ever meet Now this guy was married to a serial cheater for years, one that was manipulative and slept with pastors in the so-called ministry but he played the suffering servant until the kids could see through the crap, and she finnaly left. As usual, she is alone, her kids and most people don't want much to do with her, although they treat her kindly. I was reading last week in the good book that you should treat your feeble and sick mother with kindness. I expect that also goes for the self inflicted mothers also, you know the ones that bring it on themselves
It's another wacky wayward self entitlement lying an cheating story
But my friend, although he says it would have been nice to at least know love once in his life, and this guy is worthy I'm telling you. His grown 4 kids live with him and he loves them all dearly, does not feel like he will ever try again
Now hey that's fine, but he would have been a great H for the right woman and maybe he would at least experienced love, received some.
It's drove him into a tough place, where he will not even entertain it.
But I suppose that's the bitterness that comes from some relationships that were not handled with any accoutability, that even when you see your mistakes, you give up
Tryin to figure it out, and certainly understand being alone now that the kids are grown. But being a recluse of sorts,(loves people and to talk), and just working and eating with no diet, interest in taking care of himself,(he's heavy), it seems like it would be great for him to get interested in other things
Helping others well, it's only right is it not? To call it a waste of time, well there must be a great amount of something built up inside him, and a deep feeling of hopelessness JL made a statement once about those guys who were severly damaged by a woman. This guy is poster boy.
Nice work gentleman. Been slacking on the AoM articles... been busy with work, school, the wife. Nice week, though. Did some training in mental health; long term and acute.
Interesting stuff.
Building Your Resiliency Part IV: Iceberg Ahead!
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Have you ever reacted to something with an intensity of emotion that didn�t seem to match the circumstances of the event? The logical part of your mind is telling you that�s it�s not that big of deal, but you still feel really angry/hurt/depressed/anxious, and you can�t seem to turn off the emotion.
These kind of �overreactions� can leave us feeling pretty frustrated. They hurt our relationships and keep us from making progress in our lives. Not only do they lead us to dwell on things longer than we should, but we end up making poor decisions in this emotional state. These kinds of incongruous reactions keep us from responding resiliently to our problems.
So what causes these mismatched reactions? A collision with an iceberg, an iceberg belief to be precise. Water is pouring in your hull, but atop the deck you don�t really understand what has happened. All you know is that you�re sinking-fast.
Obviously, as victims of infidelity (or sometimes, as perpetrators) we have some iceberg beliefs that have failed us. Right out of the box; "I believe that I would never commit adultery" or "I believe my spouse would never commit adultery."
The reaction to this leads to that breakdown after D-day.
When a belief that was so fundamental to our life, love, and happiness is shattered, it causes a lot of cognitive dissonance.
What Is an Iceberg Belief?
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According to the authors of The Resilience Factor, this experience of a mismatched stimulus/reaction is �a sign you are being affected by an underlying belief-a deeply held belief about how the world ought to operate and how you feel you ought to operate within that world. �These deeper motivations and values often drive us and determine how we respond to adversity�these underlying beliefs-or icebergs, as we call them- are usually outside our awareness, deep beneath the surface of our consciousness.�
So iceberg beliefs are fixed and frozen ideas about the world that we hold deep within us. Drs. Reivich and Shatte offer these examples of iceberg beliefs:
�I should succeed at everything I put my mind to.� �People must respect me at all times.� �Women should be kind and supportive.� �A man doesn�t let his emotions show.� �Failure is a sign of weakness.� �I must never give up.� �Only weak people can�t solve their own problems.�
Here are some others I thought of:
�I never want to end up like my father.� �The most important thing is to be well-liked.� �Men are always competent in whatever they do.� �A man never quits what he starts.�
And, of course, I provided 2 contextual to why were are here.
Icebergs in Your Relationships
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Icebergs can shipwreck our relationships. This is particularly true because we often have iceberg beliefs about gender roles, even ones we�re not conscious of. Have you have been beaten by a woman you were competing with in a game? Maybe you felt extra crappy about it, crappier than you�d feel if you had been beaten by a dude. You know it�s stupid to feel that way, but that emotional reaction is caused by an iceberg belief about how these encounters should go down.
We all have iceberg beliefs about how a man and how a woman should act, and when these beliefs are violated, we can have a very strong visceral reaction, and we can�t quite understand the intensity of our emotions.
Let�s say you just worked on a handyman project around the house. Or maybe you�re in charge of the finances in your relationship. And you do something wrong, even a little thing. Your wife sees the mistake, tries to pretend like it�s fine, but disappointment is written all over her face. You might feel really angry or defensive or really sulky and humiliated. It shouldn�t have been a big deal, but your iceberg belief was that men always know what they�re doing, and so you feel way crappier than you should. And you probably take it out on your wife, becoming uber defensive and angry.
Note-this kind of thing can work both ways. The woman in your life may become really upset when you don�t live up to one of her icebergs beliefs. A lot of women have icebergs beliefs about men being strong and competent with everything. When you fail at something or otherwise come off as weak to them, it can create quite a visceral reaction in them. For example, my wife thinks that the man should take care of haggling deals and be awesome at it. Unfortunately, I�m not. And when I fail to get us a bargain, she gets really angry with me.
Another thing that we can have Iceberg Beliefs about? Emotional Needs, and Love Busters. I recently turned my thinking around about H&O;
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Oh, epiphanies.
I believe one of the greatest designs in MB is that it gives spouses a common language with which to communicate with each other.
However, the language in and of itself isn't the full beauty of this.
The language is the first step. The next step, is bringing that common language to common context.
So, given that, and given the Basic concepts, let's talk about the coin of honesty.
On one side of the coin, you have Openness and Honesty;
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Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future. If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.
Ok, good enough.
Then, we have a Love Buster, dishonesty;
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Dishonesty is the strangest of the five Love Busters. Obviously, no one likes dishonesty, but sometimes honesty seems even more damaging. What if the truth is more painful than a lie?
When a wife first learns that her husband has been unfaithful, the pain is often so great that she wishes she had been left ignorant. When a husband discovers his wife's affair, it's like a knife in his heart -- and he wonders if it would have been better not knowing. In fact, many marriage counselors advise clients to avoid telling spouses about past infidelity, saying that it's too painful for people to handle. Besides, if it's over and done with, why dredge up the sewage of the past?
It's this sort of confusion that leads some of the most well-intentioned husbands and wives to lie to each other, or at least give each other false impressions. They feel that dishonesty will help them protect each other's feelings.
Alright. Simple
We all arrived here with some simple understanding and value in Honesty and Openness, and some simple understanding and dislike for Dishonesty.
What we have lacked, is a proactive context in to which to place both of these things. In fact, look around and read the reactions we have to these concepts.
The reaction to Dishonesty is often a furious one. It's a one-two punch; it fails to fulfill the emotional need of H&O, and is in and of itself a love buster.
The reaction is usually a FLURRY of Love Busters by the offended spouse - Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements.
Ok. We following?
Now, let's stop and reflect in the MB context as to what is going on in this situation.
Dishonesty, Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements are particularly related Love Busters for one peculiar reason; each and every one of them is most often deployed either as a way to try to have our needs met, or to protect our feelings or (per our own thinking) our spouse's feelings.
They usually fail.
Now, let's go back to H&O.
Given our normal evaluation of honesty, we do NOT view it as an emotional need.
Read that again.
Stop, and think about it.
The very first thing we do to ANYONE who fails to be Honest and Open is to immediately unleash a torrent of Disrespectful Judgements against them - we question their morality, their integrity... we launch an attack at the very fiber of their being.
Even if we don't do this externally to our spouse, we do it in our head and heart when they fail at H&O.
What often results here is a focus on the LB aspect of the exchange; well, just STOP being dishonest then!
This is foolhardy. When one person is here angry that their spouse, who is not here, has been dishonest or isn't meeting the need of Honest and Open... the usual response is to focus on the LB behavior of the absent spouse.
No.
The solution is for the offended spouse not to focus on the Love Buster, but to focus on what they can do to have their need met. How do we have our needs met? By making it pleasant and safe for our spouse to meet that need.
The solution, is for you to begin to contextualize H&O as your emotional need, not a given (SD), not a lack of values on the part of your spouse (DJ), and not a reason to treat them like crap (AO).
Keep your side of the street clean, folks.
This would be similar to realizing that SF is an emotional need, and that; 1) meeting that need is important to the marriage, 2) to have it met, it must be safe and enjoyable for your spouse to do so.
The Problems Icebergs Can Cause
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�Iceberg beliefs cause you to overexperience certain emotions and underexperience others. Emotionally resilient people feel it all�but they feel those emotions at the appropriate time and to the appropriate degree. Less resilient people tend to get stuck in one emotion, and that comprises their ability to respond productively to adversity.� -The Resilience Factor
There are 4 problems that the Drs. Reivich and Shatte believe can be caused by iceberg beliefs:
1. Iceberg beliefs can become activated at unexpected times, which leads to out-of-proportion emotions and reactions. 2. Their activation might lead to emotions and behaviors that, although not extreme, are mismatched to the situation. 3. Iceberg beliefs can become too rigid, which causes you to fall into the same emotional patterns over and over. 4. Contradictory iceberg beliefs can make it hard to make a decision.
The first 3 points are pretty self-explanatory, but let�s take look at number 4. We can experience contradictory iceberg beliefs that confuse us and make decision-making difficult. You might have two iceberg beliefs: �A man should always follow his passion in life.� and �A man takes care of his family.� You�re called into your boss� office and offered a promotion. You know you�ll hate the job but it will be a lot more money to support your family. The colliding of these icebergs can make you feel paralyzed and anxious.
It�s important to note that icebergs are not by necessity bad or good-they can be either, or both. �Integrity is the most important thing in life� is obviously a positive iceberg.� �I will never quit at anything,� has some definite positives for your life, but can be taken too far if you�re not careful. �People cannot be trusted� is a mostly negative belief. So you have to do a cost/benefit analysis of which icebergs you want to keep and make work for you and which you want to work on melting away.
Read and reflect on the highlighted points.
Why It�s Hard to Melt Your Icebergs
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You may say, well, this is good to know, I�ll just snap out of my negative icebergs and melt them away. But it�s not so easy, as we are all susceptible to a confirmation bias or what RF calls the Velcro/Teflon Effect(or backfire effect - HHH). As you go about your life, you tend to filter out and ignore whatever doesn�t support your iceberg beliefs while honing in on everything that does.
So Gary believes, �All women are untrustworthy and manipulative.� At the start of his relationship with Sarah, she tells him that she isn�t looking to date anyone seriously. After a few weeks Gary tells Sarah that he wants to become more serious, and she tells him that they shouldn�t see each other anymore because that�s not what�s she�s looking for. Gary will seize on this snub, while ignoring what Sarah told him at the beginning of their relationship, and will declare that women are all a bunch of liars and Sarah just wanted him to take her out and pay for her meals. He may even seek out women who are untrustworthy and manipulative, to unconsciously confirm his bias. The mind can be a tricky thing.
Many men don�t realize that serious muscle and strength can be built with just bodyweight exercises. Not only that, bodyweight only workouts can be high intensity and done in quick training sessions throughout the week.
Many men don�t have time to spend hours in the gym because they have families, they work long hours or they are just too busy going out on dates. Yet they still want to stay in fighting shape. For them, a short, intense bodyweight workout is just what the doctor ordered. So what are the ground rules when you are setting up your bodyweight training routines?
You should definitely include as many full body movements as you can to jack up the intensity and decrease the time of the workout You can increase the intensity of the bodyweight movements by doing more reps, decreasing the rest time between exercises or by changing the angle of the movement If you can�t do movements with your full bodyweight, you can change the angle or use elastic bands to deload the movement
Why is bodyweight training so effective?
The most basic form of all training is bodyweight training. Being able to move your own body in all 3 anatomical planes of motion; sagittal, frontal and transverse, or in real world situations, is the key to more fluid movements and injury prevention. In fact, many trainers won�t allow their lifters to pick up any weights until they �master� bodyweight training. This might be a little extreme, but the state of fitness in the US is very sad when many people, even kids, can�t efficiently move their own bodyweight. At a fundamental level, bodyweight training improves:
So you can see, as you improve your ability to control your body, it will become your strength foundation moving forward when you begin to engage progressively resisted strength training exercises.
There are some rules that should be followed for any training session or workout program. Every session must be started with some dynamic movements to charge or excite the central nervous system, increase your core temperature and prepare you for the upcoming demands of the routine.
Reminds me of martial arts training HHH and of my own regemin years ago I would start with all the stretchs and that was the most important part, getting the blood flowing everywhere and moving ThanksHHH
Though, it comes to mind recent studies that show that static stretching before strenuous exercise actually increases the chance for injury, because the stretch causes the muscle to recoil and tighten.
Stretching should be done at the close of a routine, light stretching and movements which lubricate the joints should precede.
�Success� is all too often assumed to be the indicator of the value of a man. But success, in and of itself, merely speaks to a particular status and may have nothing to do with the journey that the man took to get there, or whether or not he retained his integrity along the way. Among the many aspects of the story, it is the idea of redefining success and victory that makes The Old Man and the Sea, Ernest Hemingway�s classic novella, so profound.
It is a seemingly simple story: Santiago is an old, experienced fisherman who hasn�t brought in a catch for months. On the 85th day of this dry spell, he heads far out into the Gulf of Mexico where he hooks a giant marlin. Unable to pull the fish into his skiff, he holds onto the line for three days before killing it with a harpoon. After lashing the fish to his boat, Santiago heads home with his hard-won prize. But along the way, sharks reduce the fish to bones, and the old man returns to port as he left�empty-handed.
Yes, a simple story on the surface, but also a tale with a much deeper message and a relevance that transcends time and place. It speaks to the universal truths of a man�s existence within this world, where pride, respect, tenacity, and dreams fuel a man in his quest to thrive in the face of struggle. It is a story about the indomitable spirit of man; Santiago stands as a symbol of an attitude toward life, and his fight with the mighty marlin offers numerous lessons to all men.
For many of us, our marriages were our "Mighty Marlins." And we, too suffered loss to the circling of sharks; life, work, children... infidelity. And here we sit, returned to the docks with the ravaged skeleton of our great prize.
�A man is not made for defeat.�
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Santiago has nothing but a broken-down shed and a rickety skiff with a sail that is �patched with flour sacks� and looks �like the flag of permanent defeat.� The skin of his gaunt body illustrates his hardships and is marked with deeply-set wrinkles, scars, and blotches from the punishing sun. And because of his terrible misfortune, he is a pariah in his small fishing village.
But while nearly �everything about Santiago is old,� his eyes remain �the same color as the sea and are cheerful and undefeated.� Instead of throwing in the towel after 84 days of terrible luck, he sails farther out into the Gulf than he has gone before.
A man continues to do whatever he must do to the best of his ability, no matter what tribulations befall him. While challenges and setbacks can strip a man of all outward signs of success, still his spirit can remain undefeated. For it can will a man to never give up and to keep on trying.
Or as Hemingway puts it: �A man can be destroyed but not defeated.�
In particular, I read this and think of my MB brother, CP. I can think of very few men who have faced the tribulations he has shared with us, and have also come out stronger, kinder, and wiser.
Success, when you have been destroyed, is to never submit to defeat.
A man does not depend on luck.
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Luck plays a major role in the story and in our everyday lives, and to a superstitious lot like fishermen, poor luck can seem paralyzing. In Santiago�s little Cuban fishing village he is labeled �salao, which is the worst form of unlucky,� after having gone eighty-four days without taking a single fish.
This makes him a outsider among his peers, and it costs him his trusty partner, the boy Manolin, whose parents forbid him from fishing with the old man. While Santiago deals with the suffering of being hungry and poor, other boats from his village continue pulling in good fish every day.
Anyone can have luck of course, but not everyone one can have determination, skill, and perseverance. Santiago knows this and therefore believes in his ability rather than chance. �To hell with luck,� he thinks. �I�ll bring the luck with me.�
He does this by not taking any shortcuts in his work. He keeps his fishing lines straighter than anyone, and he makes sure that, �at each level�there [will] be a bait waiting exactly where he wishes it to be for any fish that swim there.� Santiago keeps his lines with precision, and he is ready for whatever comes.
We cannot attain success simply by waiting for good things to happen. It is when we strive forward towards a goal that we open ourselves up to opportunity. As Santiago muses, �It is better to be lucky. But I would rather be exact. Then when the luck comes you are ready.�
Nothing to add, just read and reflect; "It is when we strive forward towards a goal that we open ourselves up to opportunity."
A man bears pain and hardship without complaint.
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�He was shivering with the morning cold. But he knew he would shiver himself warm and that soon he would be rowing.�
Whether it�s something as trivial as being cold or as significant as skirting along the borders of death, a man simply does what must be done, without self-pity and without complaint. Santiago does not whine about hunger pains or thirst, nor does he mope about the fishing line that cuts into his hands.
Out at sea, far beyond the other boats, Santiago is presented with the greatest challenge of his life. It comes in the form of an eighteen-foot marlin and makes for a long, long battle that spans days. Near the edge of his exhaustion, Santiago�s hand is cut deeply and cramps up �as tight as the gripped claws of an eagle.� He washes the cut in the salt water and lets it dry and warm in the sun. But the hand refuses him and he is forced to work with his right hand alone, against the powerful fish that is two feet longer than his own skiff. Drained, Santiago �settles against the wood� and simply �takes his suffering as it comes. He is comfortable but suffering, although he does not admit the suffering at all.�
I'm going to disagree here. There are portions of hardship, portions of pain which we may bear. However, these things must not be done for the benefit of others, as it destroys our love for them without their consent.
I agree on the light stretching before a workout and more complete ones after. Now that I think of it I used to do just that because I wanted the blood flow everywhere
Thank you for your complement HHH, but I know of a man who outranks me in that Dept as someone who was used for years by his wife and hung in there, and operated in love and integrity to his children and still does
But for me thier are a lot of questions and concerns when I go to God and just say,"help me get better lord" It might be helpful is I had a list of what would make me happy but there are not lists of accomplishments now, I am not sure why, or if thier should be. I have a list of requirements I must do before I am ready to go home, but instead of feeling like I did the best I could when I was alive, and having peace with that, I feel like I have not, and because I feel like I contributed to my wides death, I still am not free of that Everybody might say, "CP she hid drugs from you and made herself an addict, you did all you could, " But I could have told her go, instead I allowed her to stay, I allowed myself to need her . I knew better, but thought it would destroy the children also, and that she would see on her own, if she would just seek God
Oh yeah they are just feelings and they are ours to control, and my feelings will change if I work hard enough and it's our thoughts in our subconcios mind for many of us men that brings about depression issues, but I still am having problems with having a vision for the future that motivates me, so I have to look up and ask God to take away the heaviness, because it's just hard to care sometimes right now. Hard to believe in a dream future, hard to believe I will ever be able to earn one But I hear the Kingdom of heaven is within, and to seek that first and all other things will be ADDED unto it I know how that works, but I don't care to work it, I have lost much faith, and am not going to do anything to get it back and I do not want anyone to give it back except God. So I ask him
I could try antids from the new shrink I'm gonna see, but those are drugs also and they had little effect before so not expecting much
I will keep trying but if that doesn't work well, so what, I was allways proud of my tolerance to drugs before and attributed it and abstinence to actually doing something worthwhile in my life and staying on point
Looking outside tonight and just wanting to return to the place where I can appreciate nature again. It was raining and reminded me or simpler days and goals That's what I am praying for simply nothing
I agree with you HHH about how we should share our pain in marrige, but sometimes we suffer for those like young children, or we die in war and battle, where we don't want them to go even in thier mind, because it would hurt them When it comes down to Adult relationships , kids just get confused and worn down
But yeah we didn't think we were marrying a child, so I'm with you on that
I can't knock you for your modesty, CP. I, too, have a large problem with accepting compliment.
For instance, I was telling one of my university profs that my oldest sister (whom she had previously worked with) was applying to begin at the university. I said; "She is a better student than I am... both of my sisters are." My professor (who knows both of my sisters professionally) stated; "Yes, but they both tell me that you are a genius."
For one, I certainly don't feel like it. I have nothing that explicitly states this. I have no accomplishments gained from it. I have created, invented, or theorized nothing original in my lifetime. Genius? Meh. I believe Yamamoto Tsunetomo would merely refer to me as clever.
Ah, but we press on.
And that, brother, is what makes me think of you. You press on.
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A man continues to do whatever he must do to the best of his ability, no matter what tribulations befall him. While challenges and setbacks can strip a man of all outward signs of success, still his spirit can remain undefeated. For it can will a man to never give up and to keep on trying.
Now you get me on shaky ground. While I am not a man of Christian faith, I do believe that some kind of faith is important. And when I see one like yourself who is worn and weary, and whose faith is shaken, it does sadden me.
CP, God cannot give your faith "back." It is not "lost," sir. Like Christ on the cross, you have suffered and are crying out "Father, why has thou forsaken me?"
And yet, you have not totally forsaken Him.
You are right, though. I cannot help you recover your faith. Nor do I believe any minister, preacher, or prophet. This is because it is not outside of you that it has gone. It has simply been buried by your pain, grief, and regret. And it is still there.
It shines through in your posts, in your words... and I would venture to guess that it shines through in your actions.
Take heart, brother. Your heart, your kindness, your faith is your accomplishment, your legacy.
If you have never built a bridge, you have at least touched the lives of people here, and elsewhere you have shared your kindness.
(((CP))) I hear you and I'm going to ask my husband to pray for you. It's not that I can't pray, I can and will, but my husband has a gift of praying to the heart of things. One thought that came to mind when I was reading your post is that what do you pray when there's nothing left to say. At times like that, for me, I can only pray, "please help me in my unbelief." God wants to hear your heart. He already knows it but He also knows how we work. Sometimes it's good just to get it all out there in prayer. You can be 100% honest with Him when you pray. He can take it, remember He's a father, with a Father's heart.
You've been through so much, let others prop you up.
Though, it comes to mind recent studies that show that static stretching before strenuous exercise actually increases the chance for injury, because the stretch causes the muscle to recoil and tighten.
Stretching should be done at the close of a routine, light stretching and movements which lubricate the joints should precede.
Start with warming up the body. Marching/Running in place/Jumping Jacks. Get the heart rate up. ANd then do ballistic stretching.
I started all sports and exercise with static stretching for years. Was always sore.
Since I started P90X, I have not been sore at all. The program does lots of ballistic stretching. Most static stretching comes at the end during the cooldown
I have spent (invested?) a portion of this week trying to select an iconic view of the necessary spirit and strength for the BH's on this site who fight on, when "common sense" would suggest giving up the fight. I came up with these two, and they are dedicated to AM, TB, LnT, LM, TD, PTH, and the others who carry on the fight, BEING the examples that their children and OURS, should it ever come to that, will have when life deals them a shi++y hand.
Men of Harlech, on to glory, This will ever be your story. Keep these very words before ye: "Welshmen never yield!"
ZULU is simply a fantastic movie. As is the true story of Rorke's Drift. I found this movie riveting. All hope was lost. They stood and fought what was surely an impossible battle.
I don't have a whole lot right now. Been reading a bit online, mostly stuff about confidence etc. I really have to say I do not know who the heck that guy Reynolds was in September or October last year.
Weepy clingy needy sack of wet napkins. I get what he was going through but geez it kind of makes me sick!
I am in so much better of a place now. If we make it great, if we don't then I still have the world by the short and curlys.
I have been coming here less and less. When I do its to try to help newbies. Pay back some of my debt that I feel I still owe - especially to Wondering, Melody, Marital, too many to name. This place is a godsend. For all my sarcasim and screwing around if it wasn't for this forum I would literally be divorced right now, and not only that but a broken man spiritually as well.
Instead I am straining against my leash to get to the future. Just hope I can help a few others make the same leap, I owe that much to everyone who helped me!
Ditto... Ditto... Ditto
I have been coming less and less too. But still look forward to hearing from many of my friends. The newbies are in need really bad. Weepy sack of wet napkins is right. So was I. Its still not easy but I feel like you Reynolds.
I would like to start giving back more. Repay what so many of you have done for me.
On the other hand, its good to keep this group going, because vets need help too in month 6. Year 1. Year 2 and on and on.
I know Stretch I know. I am really glad you changed your signature:)
I always said I didn't want to be buried without any scars. I look at the man I was a year, eighteen months ago and I think he was sssoooo focused on the wrong things, the recession, the job, retirement fund, mortgage, how often the damn car got serviced. Now I am focused on me, on my family, on what my vision of what I want to be.
At least I got that out of a terrible situation. I hope you do too. And yeah we should pay that back. I still respect the elders here, but I am starting to be more aggressive with my opinions with the newbies because I am seeing repeats. And no I don't think that makes me a vet, not by a long shot.
Ok well off for a long awaited trip to my homestate to visit my Mom, my Dad, and see my Sis on her B-day.
Mom and Dad were Div in 1974, my Dad remarried the women he was chasing, and when she died he fell apart, showed up on our doorstep, and when we moved here he found another woman that he met jogging, and moved her in the next day. Now he is a nursing home after a stroke, and she lives in his house with her kids. Funny thing that..He had a pension and outwardly owned his house which was worth quite a bit,$350K in 1989, and had about $250K in the bank when I left.
The new woman, younger than he of course, got him to quit smoking, but apparently could not control his Blood pressure, be cause besides the diagnosis of Alzhimers,(I find it strange because he allways had issues with reality), he had a stroke once the money ran out, and now he lives in a nursing home, and everything he sacrificed, all his friends and family, to own his own home, was for naught.
But he still is my Dad, and he had many strengths, and worked hard for everything he had, and its sad he is living in such a place, when he should have been insured, at least enough to live his life out in his own house, built on his families property. You would hope that a man could ensure such things with hard work, but there is no guarantee. He isolated himself from his children a long time ago, and when he came to us broken and a mess when his second wife died at home from cancer,(I just experienced that myself in 2009, so I understand the depth of it a little), we brought him into the family and assured him we did not want anything to do with his money, and all we wanted was for him to have his wishes carried out and be happy.
Nobody was ever trusted by him, so it became evident that nobody could trust him either. We tried, my Mom and Sister and I, to make him happy, work hard and obey him, and have a relationship with him, but he was just not interested. Children were to be seen and not heard, were to work for the parents, and be happy they had a place to sleep and something to eat. He had obviously suffered a great deal at the hands of others, and it was a mystery, because his parents were the salt of the earth, and his brother was so different, it was uncanny.
But to admit he might have problems, needed help, pushed himself and others beyond what was normal like a slave driver, was everyone being against him, lazy and pansies, and made him paranoid. All we ever wanted was some balance, and all I ever wanted was to please him and get the occasional pat on the back, a smile, and that he knew how important his dreams were to us also. Like I said he had problems and was toxic to be around esspecially to us when we were young.
But I do see that he is human also, and I also learned to forgive him quite a while ago, but I stopped trying to change him, and moved onto just dealing with him, and trying to make his life as happy as I could, right where he was at in his level of maturity.
Its sad that he put his house in jeapordy, because he hooked up with a woman with the reputation of a gold-digger, whithin two weeks of us moving away. We tried to get him out to church, to make some friends, but he stated that,"I attended church and sang in the choir when I was a child. What is it exactly you get out of it anyways?" He has no friends, spent no time outside of work and as far as I know, his last enjoyment was rebuilding a car with his new son-in-law, and riding to car shows with his new wife. When I showed up two weeks later after I moved away, He brought her out and said,"look what I found jogging", then also there was the many statements about "having a blond". Both were bleached BTW and my Mom is a brunette.
Its sad that the karma bus hit him, and he affaired way down and also went from the frying pan to the fire on wife number 3. I have allways refused to pass ultimate judgement on my Dad, because I still love him for the sacrifices he made, and just consider him lost and afraid. I wish he had found some real peace in his life, and maybe I can bring him some, now that he is reduced to the place he is, and maybe seen, there is still some good in people, and family is not about money. I hope I can bring him that, and tell him stories that will make him proud. This troubled man deserves that much, and by God he certainly worked for it.
Here visiting my Dad, and still marveling at how we love each other, but his ways did not help him, with freinds and family, his whole life I always knew my dad was a man who made things change, a rebel at heart, and the type of man was not going to let life stop him from having his dream The problem was how he went about it, alienating everyone, even the ones closest to him Even though he got his home, because it was definatly his, and he lost so many friends on his way, he has little family or friends to help him protect it, and it was lost. I would like to believe that his new wife really cares and respects him for how he lived his life and who he really is, but I can't because he is in a nursing home If she could prove this to me by conversation, it would be welcomed but she is defensive and manipulating, so I will not really ever know
But I know my Dad, and I understand him because I am his Son.. What he has done with the spirit of freedom, and who he really is inside as a Man, will live on in me and my children, and God will not forget his courage and spirit, as people everywhere have benifeted from it, and only the true of heart can see it.
So to those suffering loss, and fighting the sharks in this world, take heart . Truth and light will allways win over deciet and darkness. It is what keeps the planet spinning on it's axis. It's real
Well announcing, from the AOM site, an article I have seen backed up by other scientific studys on the science of attraction on TV, and of course by the examples I have seen in the world, about keeping romance alive.
I think Dr. H has said a few words on it too.
_________________________________________________--- Love. Whether in the form of poems, moony songs, philosophical treatises, romantic notes, or angry letters, no aspect of human life has had quite so much ink spilled over it. It has since time immemorial been a driving force of life, and for just as long remained utterly mysterious, an experience that could be mused over but not truly understood.
But in the last decade, scientists have finally gotten to peer into the neurological nature of love by scanning the brains of those in the throes of it. These scans have confirmed what anyone who has fallen head over heels has experienced firsthand: love is a wild and woolly ride.
As it turns out, your brain reacts to love the same way it reacts to cocaine. So you weren�t nuts to feel addicted to your beloved nor the physical pain of withdrawal when she left you. Love lights up the reward centers of your brain and douses them in dopamine, as well as serotonin and oxytocin. These neural fireworks set off feelings of euphoria, pleasure, craving, recklessness, and obsession.
So when you�re smitten, you�re literally flying high. But the high can�t last, and it isn�t designed to. Or so it was thought.
Researchers theorized that intense romantic love was only a temporary stage designed to make mate selection more efficient, and that once this powerful force brought two people together, it inevitably mellowed into attachment or �companionate love,� a stage that develops as time passes and the couple�s lives become intertwined. As opposed to the intensity of romantic love, companionate love is marked by a happy togetherness and a comfortable stability that is designed to keep the couple together to raise their children.
And indeed, that progression from romantic to companionate love can be observed in the majority of the population. When researchers looked at the brains of those who had been together for years, the scans confirmed their theory; the regions that used to light up with romantic love had dimmed and been replaced by activity in the centers for long-term attachment and pair-bonding. Passionate, romantic love, researchers concluded, had an average shelf-life of about 12-18 months�up to four years at the absolute most.
But what about the elderly couple holding hands that your girlfriend points at and says, �Aww, I want to be like them?� The couples who claim to still be head over heels for each other even after a few decades together? Are they lying? Fooling themselves? Is it possible to thwart evolutionary destiny?
Romantic Love Can Last In 2010, researchers conducted a study to answer those questions. They brought in 17 people who claimed to still be in love with their spouses, with whom they had been with an average of 21 years, and scanned their brains with a functional MRI machine while each participant gazed at a picture of his or her beloved.
What they found surprised them; in key ways, the participants� brains looked very similar to the brains of those who had just recently fallen in love. The important reward and motivation regions of their gray matter still lit up in the very same way.
They were not identical, however. Regions of the brain that are associated with anxiety and fear, which are active in the newly smitten, did not light up in those who had been with their partner a long time. These longer-term couples were still in love, but they were no longer afraid of losing or being separated from their partner�the fear of being dumped had passed. Instead, not only were the attachment and pair-bonding regions active, just as they were in the long-term companionate love couples, the regions associated with pleasure and pain-relief�opiate-rich sites that are also activated by primary rewards like morphine�lit up as well.
In other words, those who were still passionately in love after decades in a relationship enjoyed the intensity of romantic love, coupled with the stable attachment of companionate love, without the anxiety and obsession that accompanies new love, and with the added bonus of natural painkillers. A pretty nice state to be in, no?
Of course plenty of people are happy with just companionate love. Years with their spouse have forged a solid friendship and a comfortable groove between them.
Certainly there�s nothing wrong with companionate love; if it keeps you together and you�re happy, then great. And yet there are certainly compelling reasons to seek something beyond simply �good enough:�
Love is the grease in the gears of life. There are two central drivers of the actions we take in life: love and duty. Both are important, but love is the higher motivation and the one that makes life, and our relationships, easy and joyful.
In college I had an acquaintance I was not particularly fond of who called me late one night; he was at the airport an hour away and his ride had fallen through�could I come pick him up? I did so. But I went out the door grumbling and grumbled all the way to the airport. A few years later, when Kate and I were dating, she called me with the same request. It was even later at night. But this time I went rushing out the door and smiled the whole way. What was the difference? Duty versus love. Picking up Kate didn�t even slightly register as an inconvenience.
The sage William George Jordan puts the difference so well:
�Duty is forced, like a pump; love is spontaneous, like a fountain. Duty is prescribed and formal; it is part of the red tape of life. It means running on moral rails.
Analyze, if you will, any of the great historic instances of loyalty to duty, and whenever they ring true you will find the presence of the real element that made the act almost divine. It was duty�plus love.
Duty is a hard, mechanical process for making men do things that love would make easy. It is a poor understudy to love. It is not a high enough motive with which to inspire humanity. Duty is the body to which love is the soul. Love, in the divine alchemy of life, transmutes all duties into privileges, all responsibilities into joys.
The workman who drops his tools at the stroke of twelve, as suddenly as if he had been struck by lightning may be doing his duty�but he is doing nothing more. No man has made a great success of his life or a fit preparation for immortality by doing merely his duty. He must do that�and more. If he puts love into his work, the �more� will be easy.�
When you remain deeply in love with someone, your responsibilities and obligations to them flow naturally and spontaneously. The more love in your relationship, the more grease there is on the gears of life, and the smoother things go in all areas of it. Lose that grease, and the gears must grind it out. Many people have said that marriage is hard. But this has not been my experience at all. Marriage has been easy. Truly.
Faithfulness Boost. This is related to the above point. The more the gears dryly grind together, the greater the chance of the machine breaking down.
Prairie voles are generally monogamous and mate with a lifelong partner. When they pair off, the dopamine in their brains increases by 50%, which solidifies this bond. But when they are injected with a chemical that blocks the production of dopamine, they�ll readily dump their partner to mate with others.
Of course humans aren�t prairies voles; when love and dopamine dry up, duty stands in as a safety net to keep us together. But far better never to have to endure that temptation and test that safety net by keeping our brains soaked with the chemicals of love.
Increased confidence and strength. When you first fell in love with your girl, did you feel like there was nothing in the world you couldn�t do? Did you feel awesome about yourself and ready to take on endeavors that used to seem daunting?
There�s a reason for that. Love de-activates regions within the amygdala that are associated with fear, increasing your confidence and willingness to take risks. Love buoys you up and makes you feel ready to take on the world. Men have done many a great thing in the name of love.
How to Make Love Last So romantic love can last forever. This can either be validating or depressing news, depending on the current state of your relationship. As Dr. Arthur Aron, co-author of the study that proved the possible longevity of romantic love put it, �This is not something long term couples want to hear. Nobody wants to hear about couples doing better than they are. We all like to believe we�re the best.�
But if the passions of your relationship have cooled, there�s no need to simply mope about it. There are things you can do to heat things back up and keep the fires of romantic love burning. Romantic love is fueled by the release of dopamine, so one of the keys to sustaining it is to keep that chemical flowing. Here are a few ways to do that, along with other tips researchers have given for keeping romantic love strong.
1. Pick the right woman. Obviously the most important factor of all! The easiest way to keep the flame burning is to start with a roaring fire, and simply tend to it rather than having to poke at a cold bed of ashes for the next 50 years. When you get hitched, make sure she�s the one.
2. Keep things going in the bedroom. Dr. Aron�s studies have shown that the frequency of sex is a big factor in keeping romantic love alive. The couples in his study who were still madly in love after two decades together had sex an average of 2.2 times a week. That�s above the national average, but still a very attainable goal for any couple.
Of course this is a bit of the chicken and egg argument; do couples who are still in love have more sex, or does having more sex make them more in love? Likely it works in tandem, with one begetting the other.
3. Be a Married Master Mind. The biggest key to lasting love, Aron has found, is how much the partners in a relationship help each other expand their sense of self. We should look for a partner that helps us �increase our store of ideas, experiences, skills, interests and resources in order to accomplish an ever evolving set of goals.� This is what we discussed in our post about becoming a Married Master Mind. This concept is incredibly important�be sure to check out that article and really think it over.
4. Idealize each other. Studies have shown that the happiest couples are those who see each other in the best possible light. This is a matter of attitude, and something you can work on changing today. Spend less time dwelling on the things she does that annoy you, and more time recognizing all the good she does, all the things you love about her. Kate and I still say to each other, �You�re perfect.� Clearly, neither of us is. But we still sometimes see each other in that generous light.
5. Keep a sense a humor. Laughing is a sure-fire way to release dopamine, and I credit it as a big part of the success of our marriage. We make each other laugh every day, and even when we fight, we have trouble sustaining a proper angry face without dissolving into fits of laughter and the realization that whatever we were fighting about was pretty dumb.
6. Keep things fresh. Enjoying new experiences together will release dopamine and bring back the butterflies you felt when you first started dating. You�ve probably experienced this when you�ve gone on vacation with your partner; you likely felt those old romantic feelings surge again. It wasn�t just because you got away from work and the kids, but because you were doing something new and different, which turned on the dopamine faucet. You don�t have to go on a cruise to get this effect though. Instead of doing the same old thing for date night, try a new restaurant, visit a museum you�ve never been to before, or find a new trail to hike.
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Interesting the heavy references to the brain chemicals that are natural and attached to romance of every type.
Hats off to AOM for showing romance as part of life, and not just for marriage and being with a woman. Us men should be romantic about a lot of activities, that includes the ones our wives enjoy, as part of the whole picture. Seeing our wives faces glow when we help them with projects should be just as rewarding as bagging a buck in dear season, or our favorite team winning the superbowl, (pick your specific own personel man-thing).
It goes both ways, and when she is happy for you also it also is romantic. Along with things you both enjoy equally, that should be fostered jointly.
Its a matter of choices that we both can make to enrich our own lives, while we enrich each others also, freely made, not gender specific, but balanced, that keeps our brains functioning with the right chemicals for happiness.
Getting psyched that someday I will find that woman that will enjoy some of the things I do, that are healthy and wholesome, and like those challanges also, that require physical endurment. I wonder how she will enrich my life, as I take my turn, following her lead?
Was up at Mt. Rainier with the fam for the past few days, working on the manly switch of nature.
Saw this one before I left, too.
Another thing that has left me neglecting this thread, in particular, is that a lot of my reading has been really focused on human connection, attraction, intimacy, etc, etc, etc. A lot that could be applied to being a good husband, but that's only a portion of the total picture.
Some of those things I have put on the "Gift for Recovery" thread.
In number 6 - for full forum readers (as in, you read all sections) a look at the transformation of one poster at the simple introduction of a boat into the marriage is a fine example.
This is something that Dr. Harley states in the "Together When You Are the Happiest" article, which is again backed by an article on another of my favorite sites, You Are Not So Smart, about "Misattribution of Arousal."
In the short term, exciting experiences shared with your spouse create excitement ABOUT YOUR SPOUSE.
My pleasure, and at the same time it was the right place to talk about my Dad, who with all his faults was dedicated to being a man.
It was really great to see that AOM article about romance lasting. Of course here we are occupied with putting out fires so they can regrow the garden,(Geez metaphor whore I am), but it might just be the inspiration for some to say,"Hey, I know me and the missus got ripped off from all the foolish crap we did, God I want a do-over!"
I ussusally don't follow more threads than I can handle so I stick to a few that are marked as followed topics, and talk a lot on those, I try to do my best on those and don't look for new ones till they calm down. I would say every couple of weeks I look for some new ones, read the thread,(unless its a billion pages), and try to get up to speed. I think my talent is open minded thinking with perspective, and leave the hard core advice to the seasoned vets, so I rarely do more than show how the MB principles can be looked at from different angles, and they are sound. This because they are not a cookie cutter program, but I am sure some people think they are, and have trouble wrapping thier head around them. Hence my comments to open the minds.."Like a steel trap...rusted shut" Betrayal is paralizing to the emotions, and we can get pretty locked up.
So if I missed your new thread HHH, I will go look for it where I can find it also. I don't have the talent, time, or ability that some of these amazing posters have to follow all these threads in detail, or the recall either it seems. Thank God they do, there is a lot of great things happening here.
Well, because I think I have a common opinion with the author; that a lot of the media out there targeted at men is bunk.
Probably doesn't hurt that the writing is often backed by research in psychology and sociology, and he seems to subscribe to a bit of evolutionary psych.
So, this one really lit a smile on my face;
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From time to time, readers will email me an article they�ve read that argues a point contrary to the message of the Art of Manliness and suggest that I respond to it. I have typically declined because I am of the idea that it�s better to act than to react and that the best thing to do is to keep on doing my thing, because the cream will simply rise to the top. And I don�t see the point in giving misguided opinions greater exposure.
But today I�d like to break that rule. Because a reader pointed out an article that addresses an issue I�ve seen pop up in comments here, and is something men might be wondering about. The article in question is entitled, �Male Identity,� and was published on Askmen.com. I don�t have a high opinion of that website�as I�ve stated before, those kinds of shallow men�s magazines are what prompted me to start the Art of Manliness in the first place. So the article itself really doesn�t warrant a response, but it will serve very well as an excellent jumping off point to explore an important issue.
The author, Ian Lang, begins the article by taking a swipe at the Art of Manliness, goes on to lament our culture�s preoccupation with being a man, and concludes by arguing that �real men� don�t worry about what it means to be a man.
There�s plenty to find fault with in the article from the author�s cherry picking of AoM articles, to his assertion that straight razor shaving is more expensive than using modern razors, to the irony of his criticism of male lifestyle websites on the biggest male lifestyle site on the web.
The shallow content of "men's" magazines and websites is what drew me to AoM when I stumbled upon it.
Let's face it, most of the drivel passed off on men by most of these sites and publications is not compatible with marriage, and definitely not compatible with marriage building.
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Being preoccupied with what it means to be a man is not the aberration�the idea that men simply are and should just get on with it is the modern invention. It is a concept that flies in the face of thousands of years of tradition. In fact, I�d argue that Lang�s position�that real men don�t worry about what it means to be a man�is one of the biggest contributing factors to the sad state of many young Western men today.
Right?
It's as if manliness is "unconditional." It's part of this "it is what it is" mindset people have slid into. Unconditional identity, unconditional faith, unconditional love...
If you have it, you do. If you don't, you don't.
What a sad and destructive belief system.
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Without any clear guidance on what it means to be man, we shouldn�t be surprised that we have so many young men today coasting along in life stuck between adolescence and adulthood without any direction. That�s what you get when you don�t take the time to contemplate and study what it means to be a man.
One of the most important things that our ancestors understood, and we have forgotten, is that left to our own devices, humans will take the path of least resistance. Every time. In life we are constantly swimming against a great current�once we stop making an effort, the current pushes us downstream. Real life long-distance swimmers must consume a great deal of calories to fuel their progress. We too need fuel to drive our manliness�we must constantly be filling our tank with the best advice out there, writings from websites and books, advice from friends and family, to fuel our actions.
I'll admit that this drive; to grow and learn, is the main force behind me neglecting this thread.
The weight behind that force is limited resources on positive male development. It is either juvenile and asinine, or pushes conformity to a feminist bent.
Uh oh... I slighted feminism.
On the surface, I have no qualms with this ideological movement; women should have control over their bodies, and equality is a right of all people.
However; equality does not equal sameness. And lack of sameness does not build a superiority/inferiority dichotomy.
In fact, I think pushing for "sameness" only creates further breeding grounds for marriage-wrecking opposite sex interactions and infidelities.
Why can't we be friends? Because I am a married man who acknowledges that I am, and will always be, attracted to women, and to interact with them on anything but the most superficial levels is a risk and insult to my marital vows.
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It is truly a false dichotomy to say that �real men� don�t need to spend time thinking about manhood and that they should just get busy being men.
This is a very American idea of manliness, gleaned from cowboy and action movies�shoot first now and ask questions later. But if you�re a broader student of history and culture, you know that far from being mutually exclusive, contemplation and action go hand in hand.
Yes, a man should be a man of action. That is the end of his creation. But what is the means to that end? What kind of actions should he take? What is driving that action? What is the purpose of that action? What kinds of goals and priorities, values and morals should a man have? Contemplation is needed to answer these questions. Contemplation leads to right action.
For those who have followed this thread from the beginning, you remember the original title; "No Gurls Allowed."
It seemed like I took on the role of Spanky and tried to found the MB version of the He-Man Woman Hater's Club.
In fact, the intention of the original thread title was exactly to provoke; to provoke curiosity, reaction, and contemplation.
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No one would say to someone who wishes to be a scientist, �No need for studying�just get in the lab and do something!� The scientist must first study the basic principles of his field and then experiment, and then make discoveries. It is no different for manliness.
It is easy to point at our grandfathers and fathers, as Lang does, and say, �They were men and they didn�t worry about being men.� Sure, our grandfathers were men of action, but many had jobs that made them unhappy, were in unhappy marriages, didn�t know how to deal with the scars of war, and were distant and cold fathers. (And many were quite happy as well, of course!).
As far as our fathers go, many of the Baby Boomer generation worked too hard, got divorced, and failed to pass down the art of manliness to their sons. They didn�t take the time to think about what was truly important in life. How many men in our generation only wish their dad had spent some time with them �lying in a field with you making daisy chains and contemplating what it means to be a man.� Well, maybe not the daisy chain making part.
Neither action without contemplation, nor contemplation without action will get you very far in life. A man must learn to harness and balance each force.
Can't add to that... it's perfect within itself.
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But the real danger in this resurgence of interest in manliness is not that it�s making men wimpy as Lang argues�quite the opposite as we�ve just discussed. Rather, the danger is that manliness will come to be seen as just another passing trend, like metrosexuality. There are books and tv shows coming out on the theme, endless newspaper and magazine articles, and social commentary galore. I fear that people will get tired of all the media attention, which will prompt a backlash, and an inevitable swing back in the other direction, back to where men don�t give a damn about being the best men they can be.
The return to true manliness advocated by AoM is not a trend or a fad, it is an effort to close the gap created during the past few decades and once again grasp the ancient tradition of manhood. One in which men contemplated what it meant to be a man and took action to attain that ideal.
I saw this article too HHH and Liked it for the same reasons.
I have seen a lot of mens sites but this one has gotten my interest. I have never been a "Macho" type but held my ground with other men, earning even the crudest muscle heads respect, leaving me in stange situations as a young man, when I was as much of a gentlemen even when dealing with the roughest guys.
I just never liked the knuckle dragging ego centric general ideas of manliness, boyishness sure I get it, but when it comes to being a man, theres more to it that that.
But the site does not back away from the differences between men and woman, while walking that line with intelligence and sensitivity.
The author and his wife are doing an awesome job. Thanks again for introducing it HHH
Not sure how often you check SAA, but there's a new poster ERU that may benefit from a kick in the pants from some of you, if you so choose to head over there for a sec. He's in really good hands now, but just a thought?
Check Strike on SAA if you can/will? WW just broke NC and took kids. Not sure that you guys here choose to reach out given your own sitch, but just thought I'd send a help note for him. He did everything MB could suggest.
I will, but his WW just broke NC yesterday and took his kids, so figured maybe one of you might want to reach out. Not EVEN thinking of any obligation.
I have allways been family oriented, ever since I can remember, it has all been about being in a tight knit family, and being part of a team.
My kids are doing well, and I am proud of them all, and I have even re-established a relationship with my first son, from my first marriage, which is a miracle in itself, because I felt like I had failed him for so long, as I left him to his mother, and never got in the position to bring him out to see me, all the years of the second marriage.
I have lived in depression before, and it is a process. As long as you stay healthy, and keep your head up, you will come out of it with a more stable mind and learning what you should be worried about, and what is real, and what your imagination can dream up that can be lies about yourself.
But the gut stomping and intimidating reality, that I could not save my late wife from her own fears, and the years of feeling the pain that she felt, and fighting that emotional imbalance tooth and nail, has left me stranger than I ever could have imagined.
Now at a time when I was certain we would be past all the bullchit and living healthy and productive lives and enjoying our grandchildren, I am left alone, and I still love the good woman she was at one time, and the woman I knew never experianced unconditional love, from any of her family.
Knight in Shining armor? Well i was brought up on John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, and I did want to be the rock she would rely on, her place of rest. Someone who had understanding, who could take the crazy things she did, and not hold it against her, but it seems I have let it go to far, and like most strengths, is also became my weakness.
Maybe I am just mad because I lost the fight, that I could not win this one, because it really had little to do with me, or what I did, or how much I gave. Maybe it is just a reflection of my own male ego, the part that wants to be in charge, the protector, the one that wants to go "Dirty Harry" on the negative demons that attack his family.
Maybe, I just ran out of steam, as strong as I was, my kids can't understand it how I survived.
My wife used to say I had hidden potential, integrity, and I would do something great in my life. In my mind just having a full life with my wife and children, was the biggest challange and greatest thing I would ever accomplish. My IQ,EQ,are both very high, but they mean nothing compared to the safety and well being of my family.
I am not interested in having a relationship with another woman, I have nothing to prove sexually, or as a partner in life that can be counted on to pull his weight and then some, and I am not going to be in the bussiness of comforting someone who is afraid. So that leaves me out of that territory, The KISA is just to strong in me, and the KISA is a fool.
I think it is for me, just a longer and deeper process, because i labored under such foolish beliefs, for so long.
But I am still waiting on God, to pull me out of my funk, because my family needs me to be the father they allways knew agian. The one that loved life, and that no job was to small or big for him, and could do anything he put his mind to.
But to seek something just for myself? Probably my pride but I am just not interested, it has to be for all or it just is not right in my book.
This really gets to the crux of why, when we�re in the midst of a funk, we feel like it will last forever, and yet it inevitably passes. When we imagine the future, we think we will always feel the way we do at that moment, but we do not imagine all the life events that will keep us from sitting in our room and brooding 24/7. The vast majority of minds cannot ruminate on the same thing indefinitely. Life goes on and takes us along with it.
This is not to say that the ache of some losses and setbacks ever completely goes away. The memories of painful events in your life can still hit you out of the blue like a ton of bricks and take your breath away years after they happen. People say that time heals all wounds, which is true, but while the open, gaping wounds close up, the scar remains.
And yet, battered and bruised we keep on trucking. Humans have an almost infinite capacity for adaption and a greater ability to bounce backs from trials than most of know. As the author on the aforementioned study on widows wrote, �Resilience to the unsettling effects of interpersonal loss is not rare but relatively common.�
Not only should understanding this fact give you a glimmer of hope when you�re in a season of despair, it should also buoy up your confidence about taking risks in the future. Too often we think, �I cannot try that because if I failed/lost that person/made a mistake I couldn�t go on living. In fact, you could, and you would.
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Sure, this information does offer a bit of hope to those down in one of life�s low points, but information can�t really pull you out of it. It is quite difficult to pull yourself out of a funk by thinking it away.
Your mind may say that the dark time will pass, but it still feels like it will last forever. And that�s where a lot of the pain comes from during challenging times: you look ahead down the road and wonder how you will ever make it. You gaze all the way to the horizon and the path ahead looks so long, so daunting, you feel like collapsing under the weight of that huge burden.
How do you cope during those times?
Take a page from Alcoholics Anonymous. Staying sober is no easy task�if alcoholics thought about not ever having another drink for the next 50 years, they�d easily get overwhelmed and feel like it wasn�t even worth trying. So they take it �one day at a time.� Staying sober for decades seems impossible; staying sober for 24 hours seems very doable.
This is how Don Gately, a character in David Foster Wallace�s book, Infinite Jest, deals with the grueling drain of detox. Only he makes the period in which he must live even smaller than a day�he narrows it to �the space between two heartbearts.�
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�Any one second: he remembered: the thought of feeling like he�d be feeling this second for 60 more of these seconds�he couldn�t deal. He could not f�-ing deal. He had to build a wall around each second just to take it. The whole first two weeks of it are telescoped in his memory down into like one second�less: the space between two heartbeats. A breath and a second, the pause and gather between each cramp. An endless Now stretching its gull-wings out on either side of his heartbeat. And he�d never before or since felt so excruciatingly alive. Living in the Present between pulses.�
Living "in the space between two heartbeats." How does that sum it up? Fantastic!
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I just wanted to leave you with a visual reminder of the �this too shall pass� principle that a friend once showed me. I often reflect on it when I�m going through a hard time. Make a fist and look at your knuckles. You see peaks and valleys. Such is the nature of life: peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys. You may be in a valley now, but you will be on top of a peak once again. Just keep putting up your dukes each day and fighting the good fight.
Mark Moore was my hero. He was a regular old-school fireman, back before the spectacular heroism of 9-11. So it wasn't the fact of his profession that elevated him in my eyes. No, it was simply that he was the only man in my nine-year-old world who understood me. He was my next door neighbor. He lived close enough to hear my father's drunken rages and my mother's crying. He saw the car parked on grass in the front yard where my dad had left it the night before. He observed the sad lack of maintenance on our house, and he witnessed the many times I went running from the house in tears. Mark knew the horror of my world and still, for his own reasons, he picked me and gave me the only positive adult male attention I knew in those days.
Mark taught me to fish. I remember the awe I felt the first time he showed me his tackle box. It was the most mysterious collection of tools for getting the meat I had ever seen. The lures were colorful, each with a name and a special use. And dam that box was fragrant. I didn't learn until much later the otherworldly smell was a collection of thirty years' worth of mixed beer and dried fish guts.
Mark found the time to do things with me and sometimes a couple of my boy-pack buddies. We would visit him and the other men at the firehouse and got to slide down the brass pole from the second floor dorm. We'd build things together too. I can still smell the sawdust from the footstool we constructed in his garage workshop one hot summer. Then there was the time he took us all up to the top of the Highland Water Tower on the one day of the year it was open. The tower was the highest point in our town at the time and it offered an expansive vista. One at a time, he lifted each of us up to peer over the safety rail and then he pointed out the important places in our neighborhood. He said, �There�s your house, and there�s the movie theater. Over there is where you go to school, and way out there is the fairgrounds.� In a way, Mark was doing for me what men have done with boys for centuries, seeing their gifts, choosing to be engaged, and lifting them up and showing them the important parts of the masculine landscape. My dad wasn't really present for me, I had Superman on television back in those days, but Mark was my real superhero. I was a horribly lost little boy who became a lost teen, and it was Mark who saved my life.
There was a guy down from the block from me named Paul who used to put me to work around his house and in his garden. Then, there was the father of a girl down the block who did a lot of the same; put me to work. All my life I've known at least this value. Yet, there were other models and conversations that came from these neighborhood men that were missing from my own father, who was concerned only with work, and did so - driving a truck - 60-70 hours a week, on holidays... all. the time.
It is important to remember that "it takes a village to raise a child," or even, it takes a tribe to raise a man.
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The other sad truth about manhood is about lost men. Men and manhood have taken it in the chops from bad wars, feminism, and brutal economic times. Manhood is constantly under assault in today's media. A recent article in my hometown newspaper titled, Men Behaving Sadly, points out this coming season of TV shows feature, �. . . more than a half a dozen male characters questioning their masculinity and their place in a �woman�s world.�� Men's institutions have been invaded, and even men's natural tendencies have come under incitement. Collectively, these and other forces have had a devastating impact on male esteem. The result is lost and confused men, collectively and globally, looking for a vision of manhood that will help men feel good about themselves and reshape the important parts of the masculine landscape.
I'm not alone... I'm... not... alone?
I AM NOT ALONE!
Whew. That felt good.
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Making men out of adolescent males is men's work. It's necessary and life-saving for the boys, it supports families, and it reduces the chaos and violence in our communities. The big secret is until men put this piece in place, men are not whole. Conversely, when men claim that core piece of the manhood puzzle, the male hierarchy is restored, boys see an achievable path to manhood, there is peace in the village, and men inhabit their right place in the order of things.
"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." - Fredrick Douglass
I am once again energized about this.
Quick question; I had this topic moved to Recovery due to thinking (possibly faulty) that the most need would be from those recovering from infidelity, both the BH and the WH.
Does anyone feel it was better set in "other topics?"
I am not a man...but I have to say, as a woman, we NEED strong men!
I grew up with some of the finest men you would ever meet. They are my heros. There's my dad...not a big talker, but had to be near death's door to miss work. He served in 2 wars and never talked about how tough he had it. At this moment I can't think of a single complaint that has come out of his mouth. There was plenty of times he did without so my brother and I could do things we wanted to do. At 82 he is still one of the most active people I know. He is a role model - a stand up guy - and would've had plenty of excuses if he chose to take them, esp. in dealing with my mother. (But that's another story.)
Then there's my brother. He is 5 years older than me and has been the best big brother a sister could have! He helped me through forgiveness - and showed my husband grace and love when H made the decision to restore his family. My brother took care of me when my dad was away, serving our country - even more than my mother. When it comes to integrity - I know of no other that takes it on himself like my big bro to make sure he is always above reproach. And, he's humble. Just like my dad. Best darn husband and father I know of and my sister-in-law would agree.
My uncle: a man's man if you ever saw one, but a sweetheart under it all. He was a fire captain. Always looked out for everyone but himself. He married my aunt, taking in 3 girls to raise as his own and treated them so well no one ever in thought to consider they were "stepchildren". When my cousin's 5 year old son came down with brain cancer, my uncle said, "God...take it from him....give it to me." I never saw a man so genuine in his willingness to take a bullet for someone else. He died last January - way too young - of pancreatic cancer.
My step-grandfather - I guess you would call him - married my grandmother after my grandfather died after a long bout of Alzheimers. I never really knew my grandfather as a man. My stepgrandfather though... he knew what being a man meant. He treated my grandmother like she was a queen - marrying in their 60's! At 98 he still lived alone, kept a garden, mowed his own lawn, and fixed anything and everything for anyone and everyone. He died last December at 99.
These are the men of Mount Rushmore to me! I think in ways, I had no clue that a lot of men were not like the men I have been surrounded by all my life. I thought things like affairs only happened to really bad people because the good guys wouldn't go there. My poor husband...he had a lot to live up to I guess you would say. When I think about his issues - his lack of boundaries - his willingness to cut and run...I blame his lack of leadership in his life. His "dad" is a world class JERK! And that's being nice. OK, so...this is his step-dad/adopted dad...but it was the man who was supposed to raise him. (After his mom cheated on and dumped the good guy, of course...) I can't even begin to tell you the selfishness and entitlement of this "dad".... Too long. He doesn't even speak to H now because H doesn't believe with his political views! If HE had been a real man, my H would have had a much better life and it makes me sad he had to deal with the garbage he did.
I'm so sick and tired - as a woman - of men portrayed as bumbling idiots on tv and in movies. I know us women can be smart and strong - all of that - but we still need REAL men - and our sons need them even more!
Yes, we do, and we need strong role models more than ever now.
I remember some of the things my Dad would say, as laid down comandments, for living.
"Say what you mean and mean what you say!"
"If you don't have something nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all!"
" The best thing you can do, is keep your ears and eyes open, and your mouth shut!"
Hard sayings for a little kid to hear, but he was never a kid himself.
He came from the blue collar circle of farmers in the northeast, and he worked for just about everything he ever had, and didn't "fit in" with others who were more in tune with modern social more's.
But to this day, I still want to please him, and search for his acceptance. If I could I would work as hard as he did all my life, but I can't imagine how he could have survived, as a boy, acting like a man, and doing a mans work, like he did.
And there are more men of character I can remember from childhood. His brother my Uncle, was the polar opposite of my Dad. Where my Dad was impatient and headstrong, my Uncle was patient and complient, without losing his masculinity. Uncle was social and had lots of friends, and my Dad was suspicious and gaurded. They were rivals but pushed each other to excell whether they knew it or not.
My Grandfather, there Dad, worked the last day of his life, after having three heart attacks, and taking nitro glycerine pills. He was putting in an engine, and went to take a break to take a nap, and that was it for him. He was one of those guys you could call at 1 AM and get a jump start, and he was all smiles and of good humor. I remember him that way, allways with a smile. He delivered calfs, worked on farms, worked for the dairy, and had his own farm also.
They didn't say much, but what they said, was in between the jobs they did. They worked with thier hands, and knew a craft and trade. They were the backbone of America.
Those sayings mean much more to me now, than they ever did when I was a young boy, and I guess that comes from the wisdom in them, that I knew was in them, but had to go by faith when I was young.
But those lessons and more, are jewels to me, and not the curses that I once thought they were, because they made me different than others. The truth is, we are different than others, and must take responsibility for ourselves, and if we are strong enough, lead others to the same.
Yet another AoM article, this one of the "Lessons in Manliness" vein.
In particular, from the TV Series Friday Night Lights. It's on Netflix, so I'll probably go back and watch it (After I finish Battlestar Galactica).
Just a few of the key points, and I leave the rest to be read on the site;
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A Man Seeks Redemption
�Every man at some point in his life is going to lose a battle. He is going to fight and he is going to lose. But what makes him a man is that in the midst of that battle he does not lose himself. This game is not over, this battle is not over.� � Coach Eric Taylor
The theme of redemption was woven throughout each season. Several of the characters fell on hard times because of their own choices and because of just plain bad luck. My favorite example of a man redeeming himself is slick-talking car salesman and booster president, Buddy Garrity. When the show first started, I couldn�t stand Buddy Garrity. He was just a sleaze ball. He was a drunk, he cheated on his wife, and spent his daughter�s college education fund in a bad business deal. Buddy also had a tendency to sow the seeds of dissension on the team and cause Coach Taylor unneeded headaches. You could tell he did it purely for the power trip. People like that really bother me.
I�ll admit I was happy to see Buddy get his comeuppance when he lost his business, his family, and his cherished role as president of the Dillon Panthers booster club. It�s always nice to see cosmic justice in action.
But then something happened. Buddy Garrity quickly went from being my least favorite character on FNL to one my favorites. Why the change? Because Buddy sought for redemption.
Buddy used his personal crucible as an opportunity to become a better man. Ousted from his beloved Panthers, Buddy swallows his pride and becomes a big booster for a rival of his high school alma mater, the East Dillon Lions. He opens up another business in the poorer East Dillon side of town and quickly becomes a part of the community. He takes in a former juvenile delinquent named Santiago and becomes sort of a father figure to him. And in the last season we get to see Buddy repair his relationship with his estranged son, Buddy, Jr. Finally, at Tim Riggins� parole hearing, he stands up for a young man he had respected as a football player but detested as his daughter�s boyfriend and offers him a job at his restaurant, and his own shot at getting back on his feet.
There are such things as second acts in life. Buddy Garrity is a perfect example of that. If you�ve screwed up in life, humble yourself, and fight like the dickens to make things right.
Having not watched the show yet myself, I can't say much more than what is presented here. However, you may notice in the list of redemption, Buddy did not seek redemption in his marriage. I don't know if it is addressed in the show.
It should have been...
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A Man�s Closest Ally Is His Wife
While on the surface Friday Night Lights was a show about football, the heart of the show was truly the relationship between Eric and Tami Taylor. It�s by far the most realistic depiction of a good marriage I�ve ever seen on TV. Most TV shows depict marriages in which the husband is suffocated and henpecked by the wife, or ones in which each of the partners is forever on the verge of an affair or the couple is sliding towards divorce. Instead, the Taylors looked like most married couples I know�solid, happy, and committed. They were confronted not with the over-the-top drama typically depicted on the small screen, but with the everyday struggles that strain most marriages, like balancing work and family, handling an unruly teenager, or just figuring out who�s cooking dinner.
Perhaps the biggest conflict between Eric and Tami was balancing their respective career aspirations. Eric wanted to coach football. That was his calling in life. And for most of their marriage, Tami supported her husband�s dream by moving from job to job. Without her support, Coach Taylor could not have been as successful as he was. But when Tami�s career in education starts to take off, her personal goals quickly become incompatible with her husband�s. Cue the marital tension, and the eventual self-sacrificing compromise.
Despite their relationship conflicts, Tami and Eric were committed to their marriage. They were always able to resolve their problems with love and respect.
Eric understood that a man�s closest ally and adviser is his wife. When he had a problem with the team, he�d often ask Tami for her input while they were laying in bed right before they fell asleep. (Kate and I have those same kinds of bedtime conversations. I�m sure most married couples do too.) He understood the power of a marriage mastermind. He saw his wife not as his inferior or superior, but as an equal companion that was there to help him become the best man he could be.
And that final line is the culmination of RH and PoJA within a marriage (though not likely perfectly modeled in the show, I'll bet).
Well grandaddy was a hillbilly scholar, blue collar of a man... He came from the school of "you don't need nothin' if you can't make it with your own two hands" He was backwoods, backwards, used words like: no sir, yes ma'am, by god, I'll be darned, hell yeah I'm American.. and all the years he walked this earth I swear all he did was work. He said the devil dreams on an idle horse so you listen to me squirt..
Don't get too high on a bottle, and get right with a man. Fight your fights, find your grace and all the things you two can't change, and help somebody if you can
Now Granny said sonny stick to your gun if you believe in something no matter what cause it's better to be hated for who you are Than loved for someone you're not. She was 5 feet of concrete New York born and raised on a slick city street. She'll stare you down, stand her ground, still kickin' and screamin' at 93 I remember how frail she looked in that hospital bed taking her last few breaths of life and smiling as she said
Don't get too high on a bottle, just a little syrup now and then, fight your fights, find your grace, and all the things you two can't change and help somebody if you can, and get right with a man
I never let a cowboy make the coffee yeah thats what Granny always said to my Grandad and he'd say never tell a joke that ain't that funny more than once and if you wanna hear God laugh, tell Him your plans
Don't get too high on a bottle, get right with a man, son. fight your fights, find your grace, and all the things you two can't change and help somebody if you can and get right with a man
Isnt Van Zant from Skynard? I like "Simple man" by them.
They picked up that name BTW because it was the name of thier gym coach, and they called themselves that just to piss him off.
I remember listening to "Freebird" at 16, from a rockradio station, when they were new and went to school talking about it.
I was a sophmore in HS and all everyone knew was "Sweet Home Alabama", because it was on the top forty.
Yeah well, I was a real big music fan then, and 6 years later, when Freebird was popular with all the partier young people, I was a seriuos young father.
Brings back memorys to this old geezer, yep, gotta watch Matlock!
I'm excited about this one, it's from the same director who did Hoop Dreams, and part of his mission is getting focus on turning the decline of men around, by focusing on our young men and their transition into manhood;
Thank you to those of you who mentor our young men.
Thank you to those of you who mentor our young men.
I liked it too HHH.
I remember my Dad not being able to show emotion, and how he seemed to have grown up to fast, and allways had something to prove. Realize this though, he was a hard working man allways and wanted the best for all of us, and I respected that immensely.
The Niel Young song at the end of the video from the Harvest Album reminded me of when I was 15 and listening to it and comtemplating my relationship with Him. Like the popular story circulated arong the internet of, "My mean Mom", I could probably equate that to my Dad. He honestly worked all his life, was sensitive and artistic, creative, and shy and withdrawn, but although I appreciated him and the discipline, in a lot of ways we did not connect in this lifetime, although he still had the greastest effect on my character than anyone in the world.
Towards the end there is a father-son exchange, I will paraphrase the son;
"Dad, can you loosen up your expectations a bit on me? Some days I don't even want to get out of bed, because I'm sure the day is going to be bad."
Admiration is a big thing to a lot of men. And when we don't receive it from those we love and admire... it's a pretty big blow to us emotionally.
It was a big thing for this young man to state that he feels he is being presented with a seemingly insurmountable task which only leaves him feeling like he repeatedly fails.
Steadfastness is the indispensable quality of every man who one day does not wish to be obliged to say: �I have wasted my life.�
A man should not incessantly change with every impression of the moment, but should remain steadfast when he has once determined upon what is right. Of what use are the flowers if they do not produce fruits, and of good ideas if they are not transmuted into deeds? We must encourage stability, habituate ourselves to remain constant, and when we are sure that we are right, must fortify ourselves against invasion. Do not let criticisms or attacks disturb you.
Nothing is so difficult as to remain faithful. At each step of the way outside influences are brought to bear upon us to make us deviate or retrograde. And if there were only difficulties from without, it would not matter so much; but there are those from within. Our dispositions vacillate. We promise one thing with the best intentions in the world; but when the time comes to keep it, everything is changed�the circumstances, men, ourselves; and what duty demands of us seems so different from what we had foreseen, that we hesitate. Those who will fulfill on a rainy day a promise which they have made on a sunny one, are few and far between.
And so we go on casting our hearts to the four winds, giving it and taking it back again, breaking with our past, separating ourselves from ourselves, so to speak. And when we look behind, we no longer recognize ourselves. We see ourselves in the days that are past as a stranger, or rather as several strangers.
There is nothing like a steadfast man, one in whom you can have confidence, one who is found at his post, who arrives punctually, and who can be trusted when you rely on him. He is worth his weight in gold. You can take your bearings from him, because he is sure to be where he ought to be, and nowhere else. The majority of individuals, on the contrary, are sure to be anywhere but where they ought to be. You have only to take them into your calculations to be deceived. Some of them are changeable from weakness of character; they cannot resist attacks, insinuations, and, above all, cannot remain faithful to a lost cause. A defeat in their eyes is a demonstration of the fact that their adversary was right and that they were wrong. When they see their side fail, instead of closing up the ranks, they go over to the enemy. These are the men who are always found on the winning side, and not in their hearts would be found the courageous device: Victrix causa diis placuit, sed victa Catoni.
A profound duplicity, a discrepancy between words and deeds, between appearance and reality, a sort of moral dilettantism which makes us according to the hour sincere or hypocritical, brave or cowardly, honest or unscrupulous�this is the disease which consumes us. What moral force can germinate and grow under these conditions? We must again become men who have only one principle, one word, one work, one love; in a word, men with a sense of duty. This is the source of power. And without this there is only the phantom of a man, the unstable sand, and hollow reed which bends beneath every breath. Be faithful; this is the changeless northern star which will guide you through the vicissitudes of life, through doubts and discouragements, and even mistakes.
Our enemies are anger, temptation, complacency, and neglect.
I observe, gentlemen, that when I would lead you on a new venture you no longer follow me with your old spirit. I have asked you to meet me that we may come to a decision together: are we, upon my advice, to go forward, or, upon yours, to turn back?
If you have any complaint to make about the results of your efforts hitherto, or about myself as your commander, there is no more to say. But let me remind you: through your courage and endurance you have gained possession of Ionia, the Hellespont, both Phrygias, Cappadocia, Paphlagonia, Lydia, Caria, Lycia, Pamphylia, Phoenicia, and Egypt; the Greek part of Libya is now yours, together with much of Arabia, lowland Syria, Mesopotamia, Babylon, and Susia; Persia and Media with all the territories either formerly controlled by them or not are in your hands; you have made yourselves masters of the lands beyond the Caspian Gates, beyond the Caucasus, beyond the Tanais, of Bactria, Hyrcania, and the Hyrcanian sea; we have driven the Scythians back into the desert; and Indus and Hydaspes, Acesines and Hydraotes flow now through country which is ours. With all that accomplished, why do you hesitate to extend the power of Macedon�yourpower�to the Hyphasis and the tribes on the other side ? Are you afraid that a few natives who may still be left will offer opposition? Come, come! These natives either surrender without a blow or are caught on the run�or leave their country undefended for your taking; and when we take it, we make a present of it to those who have joined us of their own free will and fight on our side.
For a man who is a man, work, in my belief, if it is directed to noble ends, has no object beyond itself; none the less, if any of you wish to know what limit may be set to this particular camapaign, let me tell you that the area of country still ahead of us, from here to the Ganges and the Eastern ocean, is comparatively small. You will undoubtedly find that this ocean is connected with the Hyrcanian Sea, for the great Stream of Ocean encircles the earth. Moreover I shall prove to you, my friends, that the Indian and Persian Gulfs and the Hyrcanian Sea are all three connected and continuous. Our ships will sail round from the Persian Gulf to Libya as far as the Pillars of Hercules, whence all Libya to the eastward will soon be ours, and all Asia too, and to this empire there will be no boundaries but what God Himself has made for the whole world.
But if you turn back now, there will remain unconquered many warlike peoples between the Hyphasis and the Eastern Ocean, and many more to the northward and the Hyrcanian Sea, with the Scythians, too, not far away; so that if we withdraw now there is a danger that the territory which we do not yet securely hold may be stirred to revolt by some nation or other we have not yet forced into submission. Should that happen, all that we have done and suffered will have proved fruitless�or we shall be faced with the task of doing it over again from the beginning. Gentlemen of Macedon, and you, my friends and allies, this must not be. Stand firm; for well you know that hardship and danger are the price of glory, and that sweet is the savour of a life of courage and of deathless renown beyond the grave.
Are you not aware that if Heracles, my ancestor, had gone no further than Tiryns or Argos�or even than the Peloponnese or Thebes�he could never have won the glory which changed him from a man into a god, actual or apparent? Even Dionysus, who is a god indeed, in a sense beyond what is applicable to Heracles, faced not a few laborious tasks; yet we have done more: we have passed beyond Nysa and we have taken the rock of Aornos which Heracles himself could not take. Come, then; add the rest of Asia to what you already possess�a small addition to the great sum of your conquests. What great or noble work could we ourselves have achieved had we thought it enough, living at ease in Macedon, merely to guard our homes, accepting no burden beyond checking the encroachment of the Thracians on our borders, or the Illyrians and Triballians, or perhaps such Greeks as might prove a menace to our comfort ?
I could not have blamed you for being the first to lose heart if I, your commander, had not shared in your exhausting marches and your perilous campaigns; it would have been natural enough if you had done all the work merely for others to reap the reward. But it is not so. You and I, gentlemen, have shared the labour and shared the danger, and the rewards are for us all. The conquered territory belongs to you; from your ranks the governors of it are chosen; already the greater part of its treasure passes into your hands, and when all Asia is overrun, then indeed I will go further than the mere satisfaction of our ambitions: the utmost hopes of riches or power which each one of you cherishes will be far surpassed, and whoever wishes to return home will be allowed to go, either with me or without me. I will make those who stay the envy of those who return.
Trip, I'll see your Alexander, and raise you my Henry V:
What�s he that wishes so? My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin: If we are mark�d to die, we are enow To do our country loss; and if to live, The fewer men, the greater share of honor. God�s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more. By Jove, I am not covetous for gold, Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost; It yearns me not if men my garments wear; Such outward things dwell not in my desires: But if it be a sin to covet honor, I am the most offending soul alive. No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England: God�s peace! I would not lose so great an honor As one man more, methinks, would share from me For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more! Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host, That he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made And crowns for convoy put into his purse: We would not die in that man�s company That fears his fellowship to die with us. This day is called the feast of Crispian: He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named, And rouse him at the name of Crispian. He that shall live this day, and see old age, Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbors, And say �To-morrow is Saint Crispian's� Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars. And say �These wounds I had on Crispin�s day.� Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he�ll remember with advantages What feats he did that day: then shall our names. Familiar in his mouth as household words Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester, Be in their flowing cups freshly remember�d. This story shall the good man teach his son; And Crispin Crispian shall ne�er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remember�d; We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne�er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition: And gentlemen in England now a-bed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin�s day.
Here we read of the "band of brothers', probably its first usage. This phrase was also used as the title in the retelling of the story of Co E, 506/101st Airborne. Now for extra credit (without googling), who can name the other group usually so identified?
If memory serves, it was used in reference to the men he fought with during a campaign in....Spain or Egypt, I think.
(BTW -- in teaching Shakespeare plays/momologues to my students, the St. Crispin's Day speech, Seven Ages of Man, etc., I often instruct them of the other contexts/allusions they may find reference to...I joke that ANYTHING can be referred back to Shakespeare, the Beetles, or Seinfeld ha, ha).
...around when he whooped the French at the Battle of the Nile.
Just prior, actually! He was actually bemoaning that he was not given overall command in the Med:
Yet, if I know my own thoughts, it is not for myself, or on my own account chiefly, that I feel the sting and the disappointment! No! it is for my brave officers; for my noble-minded friends and comrades. Such a gallant set of fellows! Such a band of brothers!
Thanks! It's nice to know that all that time spent playing Wooden Ships and Iron Men when I was a kid weren't wasted. That's what I love about old school board wargaming; it makes the history come alive.
Anyone seen chrisner? He still owes me a quick game of Squad Leader...
I see some gentleman at this time who need this inspiration;
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One harmful mindset that can keep a man from fulfilling his calling and potential is self-coddling. This is when he convinces himself he deserves a break, and runs to something that ultimately harms himself.
The WWII Marines of K/3/5 had been fighting on Guadalcanal for weeks. C-rations had run out, and the men ate twice daily portions of coconuts and wormy rice they�d confiscated from the Japanese.
PFC Sid Phillips (featured in HBO�s The Pacific) grew increasingly concerned for his hometown friend, W.O. Brown, racked with severe dysentery. Everything W.O. tried to eat ran straight through him. There was no medicine. No cots to lie on. The sick were simply stretched out on the ground. W.O. grew so emaciated he was too weak even to sit up. Flies covered him as he lay in his own diarrhea.
�It was bad,� Phillips reported in an interview with me. �I didn�t think W.O. was going to survive.�
Each day, Phillips carried W.O. to the ocean and helped him get clean. I asked Phillips if he remembered any specific conversations he had with W.O. during these times of carrying him. Here, I was expecting a poignant story. I pictured this young battle-hardened Marine carrying his nearly-dead buddy to the water. �Keep holding on,� Phillips would whisper. �Have courage. Just think of mom and apple pie.� Something like that.
But Phillips just chuckled. �Oh yeah, I remember. I told W.O. to stop being such a faker and take a salt tablet.�
The response threw me. I asked Phillips (who eventually became a medical doctor) what his strategy was.
�Well, it didn�t help a man to overly commiserate with him,� Phillips said. �If you did, it just depressed him. But if you kidded him, it made him smile. The ribbing was all good natured. He�d fire back some wisecrack at you, and soon he�d get to fighting again.�
A high school football movie comes to mind... Johnny Be Good? I can't remember...
A player gets hurt after a play, and complains to the coach; "Coach, I think I broke my [Richard]!"
The coach's response?
"Rub some dirt on it, and get back in there!"
Men are strange creatures... we are prone to the same forces which women are, and prone to the same collapse. Yet, it seems that for us, we first must be WILLING to collapse.
Why is it that a rib from a comrade will somehow give us enough vigor to take that next step, and the next, then the next?
Maybe it is the way we are wired to rise to challenges.
Now, in some eyes I am still a pup. But, in my time, I have worked with a broad range of men (and women) from a menagerie of backgrounds, levels of education, and social placements.
Yet, "the game" remains ever intact. The constant jabber and exchange of jabs and taunts, the stream of endless, almost boyish, playfulness never ceases. Most of the dialogue that happens between male colleagues, in my observation, has two possible outcomes if one were to attempt to carry it on to interaction with women; 1) a sexual harassment lawsuit, 2) an apology for being crass, rude, or cruel (and possibly another lawsuit).
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How does this apply to manhood today?
Phillips respected W.O. Brown as someone who had the capacity to get up and go on. So let�s believe the same about ourselves.
Anytime a man is in a downed place�i.e. he�s annoyed, angry, tired, hurt, lonely, stressed, or frustrated�he is tempted to become overly sympathetic with himself. He gets that insidious, creepy, pampering mindset that tells him he deserves a break�just this once.
I�m not talking about kicking back on the couch with a bag of Doritos. Not that kind of a break.
I�m talking about blowing it: the lie that it�s okay to run to a favorite vice. We�ve all got them. We run to whatever ultimately harms us, because we�ve convinced ourselves it helps. It�s the worst form of coddling.
What�s the solution?
Get tough with yourself. Knock it off, ya faker. Take a salt tablet, and get back to the battle. Sure, frustrations exist. But you don�t need that bottle. You don�t need that porn. You don�t need to give in to that moment of rage on the freeway. You�ve only convinced yourself you do.
By the way, the strategy works. W.O. Brown survived the dysentery�and the war.
If this was posted in reference to my situation, I guess I'm too dense to make the connection. I think you're gonna have to spell it out.
OWH
This little space on the forum, Aged Combat Equine, is something I carved out just for us fellas. I neglect it from time to time... which I intended to do from the start. But sometimes I read something and I bring it here. To share with other men. Men who need some light in their lives.
I just skimmed your thread before writing this post due to your wondering if my post was specifically for you. I see you have a fight on your hands... again.
If you want a connection, simply read the opening story.
When you hit those walls, when all seems lost and you just want to give in... collapse, fall into a bottle, hit the strip club for some Plan FU...
... well, knock it off, ya faker! Take a salt tablet! Get back in the battle!
Brother, until you stop breathing, there is more gas in the tank.
You are spot-on, HHH. I know I have caused a lot of problems in my life by coddling myself, just as you describe. When I first arrived here, people frequently called me out for giving myself a pass while being hard on Prisca for the exact same things!
And you are right, MB is harder on men than women. It's not fair! But I guess I wouldn't look very manly if I put the "dramaqueen" smiley in here as a reaction. It's not fair, but what alternative is there? A bad marriage takes pump-priming, and most women just do not have the stamina for that that most men have.
I really like for this board to function as a coach for men, in the same way an athletic coach would help a guy push himself further than he thinks he can go, this board can function as a support group that tells a guy "Yes, you can do it. You can make one more bench press, you can run one more lap, you can hit that ball straight, you are capable of doing what you do not believe you can do."
Dig deep within yourself and find it, and you'll be amazed at the rewards life has to offer. You will be proud of yourself, too.
I just skimmed your thread before writing this post due to your wondering if my post was specifically for you. I see you have a fight on your hands... again.
If you want a connection, simply read the opening story.
When you hit those walls, when all seems lost and you just want to give in... collapse, fall into a bottle, hit the strip club for some Plan FU...
... well, knock it off, ya faker! Take a salt tablet! Get back in the battle!
Brother, until you stop breathing, there is more gas in the tank.
Gotcha. You're right. I'm back in the thick of it at the moment.
I agree with us guys, that feeling sorry for ourselves is very destrucive
Ain't that the truth! I'm facing a non-moveable work deadline I can't possibly meet, and a demonstration next week with a customer that I'm absolutely dreading. I'm looking at almost certainly losing my funding for next year, which will likely mean changing jobs.
I have two choices: dissolve into a useless puddle of self-pity, or keep hitting it hard for another week. My boss actually commented on my tenacity, remarking that anyone else he knows would have quit weeks ago.
"Hard pressed on my right; center is yielding; impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent, I attack!" - Marshall Foch
Yeah no brain no pain, lol allways loved that one. As a young man I used to think that I couldn't complain about pain, so bore up with all kinds of injures, broken bones and damage, that can only be attributed to being a man, "The John Wayns way, (Heck my Dad so reminded me of his Iconic image and he even looked like him, but dollars to donuts my Dad was tougher and took more than his fair share of pain)..,,,, But , after being so stout and strong, it all of a sudden means I have no brain?
Ok. Ok, I guess it is better to be sensitive, which I call aware rather than subject myself to the unmanly attributes that word generally means. But then if you come off in public like you are a thinker, and especially in my neck of the Northeast woods,( woods really folks), you would be cajoled for being to smart for your own britches ...
Yeah ya can't win... Lol
Oh yeah, being smart and book-learnin didn't make you a man in them parts. Well of course it didn't
But the no brain no pain saying has always been a puzzle to me in a way.
Had me thinking about pro football players and the pain they have to put up with when they retire. Not having to put on the harness and hit the field anymore, retirement can be a death knoll <sp>if they use painkillers and all of a sudden ,(as retirement seems rather sudden), they start to look for all those things they put off all thier lives. It CAN be a slippery slope for them, and when painkillers are used to much, or abused say, they can lose touch.
Life has pain, and dealing with it means you must have a brain. It's how you use it that makes the difference. Be careful of those things that promise no pain Your probably gonna set yourself up for some
Well. I really don't talk about it much. I've been focusing on day to day responsibilities; (I'm a contractor); bidding jobs, getting kids to and from school (3); laundry; dinner; showers and bedtime. I just haven't had time to deal with emotions.
My 6 year old has been crying every night for mommy. She's having a hard time. The others are adjusting okay, but they still dont understand and my son blames me for mommy being gone.
Fortunately, our home is more organized than ever before. We have a schedule that we never had. The kids are doing good in school. We stay involved in church and family traditions we have started.
For support I did attend my first AlAnon meeting since divorce. And it was nice to attend.
I do feel much better today. I'm always a little sad or regretful that I didn't find MB before her affair. But it probably wouldn't have made a difference anyways. Dr Harley said that people with personality disorders can't follow the POJA. And I understand what he said. But emotionally (not intellectually) I want to believe that it could all be fixed.
I do believe that my number one priority is the care of my three kids. So that's kind of where my focus is now. I am also in active foreclosure and plan on filing bankruptcy (could use Tim's advice time to time).
Sometimes I do feel lonely. But I remember the last year and her affair nearly destroyed me. I am so thankful that I am protected from her behavior now. The question I keep asking myself, is that I really never thought she was that odd. It took an email to Dr Harley for him to say she had a personality disorder, and it took only 2 meetings with the custody evaluator for the court to issue an emergency custody order....all while I was trying to expect a sane response to my plan A (from a person that makes insane decisions).
Going forward my plan is to maintain health (all around health), be a good parent and role model, and start over in my life. It's definitely a new chapter, if not a new book.
When I get bogged down in what ifs, I remember that "I can't control the actions of others. I can only control how I allow their behavior to affect me" and to "Let Go and Let God"
I do care for my ex wife. I am afraid that she is in a dark place in her life now. But I also know that God loves her and can help her much more than I can.
Sorry for rambling on. I know you only asked me a simple question but I felt like I had to get this off my mind.
Well. An update. My ex wife last week asked ds during visitation if she could join us in recreational activity. She said to ask me.
This week (today) she gave the kids a birthday card in an envelope to give to me.
I should throw the card away, unread Right?
I wouldn't participate in any joint recreational activity with her and would toss the card in the trash unopened. Don't mention the card to the kids because she'll surely ask them about it. She needs to get the point that you two are not related. Besides, these little pop ups that she does isn't helping you.
Maybe you could start a thread in the divorced/divorcing?
No. Thanks for asking. I just felt sad on my birthday in the evening. I struggle with emotions vs logic. I feel good. But 10 years of marriage even with bizarre behavior I miss her at times.
I just received the Art of Manliness book in the mail today.
What a great publication that is too. I am refering to the webpage, but I imagine the book mirrors the same..
Reminds me of the Boys scouts of the 60s when i was one, and the spirit behind them too. Of becoming a Man and what was required to wear the label, or title, or to earn it also..
Its the spirit and intentions that really count, and see us through the storms in life, where we come out stronger because we stood for the standard, or the flag or banner, of what being a man is supposed to be.
We are all in need of instruction, and only the humble are prepared for that, and seek it willingly without embarrassment. Becoming a Man is a process, and we all are in need of instruction, all our lives
The book encourages men to use safety razors for shaving. I have always used disposable blades and shaving cream out of a can. Fortunately my father had an extra Gillette safety razor. I bought some soap and a brush from Walmart and WOW! I love to shave now! I also bought a syptic Pencil (previously I had always used toilet paper) and it stings but works great!
I threw away all my shaving cream cans and disposable blades and truly enjoy shaving now!
Nothing better for shaving then a single edge safety razor.
The best part the blades are so much cheaper $2.99. Where the 4/5 blades are $25 and they do not shave better then the old fashion safety.
Another example that new and improved mean new = porfits and improved = more profits.
I hate when I hear the words in an advertisement. When you read between those lines new and improved means: we the manufacturer has found a way to lower costs and make more money then ever before while not matching the previous level of quality.
Read an article in [/i]The New Yorker [i] a few years back, which said the blade manufacturers [/b]knew[b] that multiple blades gave no better a shave. But it was the only thing they could think of to sell more blades. That was when they were going from three blades to four.....
I really enjoy the smell of the shaving soap too. And the feel of the boar bristle brush on my face. I will commit to teaching my son when he is older this proper method of shaving
While much in the way of traditional gender roles has shifted in modern times, most women I know still want a man who can be the rock in the relationship. But just what does being the rock entail? I asked this question in the Community, and this is what a few of the men had to say:
Jamie said: �To me, that means being mature, guided by reason and my family�s best interest, rather than being given to emotional upsets. My wife wants to know that if she gives me her cares and concerns, she can rest assured that I�ll take care of them responsibly.�
Jeffre said: �To me, being the rock means I need to be the calm when life starts getting stormy. Not that I can control the events that happen in life, but I can control how our family responds to the events. . . Does it mean I�m always �the rock?� No, there are times when I have had to lean on my wife for support, but as a general rule my job is to be there for her and the kids. If there is a crisis and I�m not doing well, I have to put aside my fear and anxieties to step up for them. You feel like you want to crawl into a hole and disappear, but you can�t because others depend on you. Those are the times of real testing. When those times arrive I think of a quote I read somewhere (I don�t know who originally said it) but here it is: �Ask not for a lighter burden, but ask for broader shoulders.�
Robert said: �My dad was always the �rock� in the family. He�s the go to guy. The person you can always rely on. The person that you know will be strong when everyone else isn�t�Being the �rock� means always doing what you say you will do. Being calm when the situation seems to be chaotic and panic the order of the day. My dad is the rock because he is reason when emotion prevails, compassion when hearts are hardened, and humorous when you least expect it.�
What else does it mean to be the rock? Let�s take a look.
Manly men are confident men. People are attracted to men who project confidence. Sadly, many men these days lack any confidence at all. Some mope around with their head down, wallowing in self pity. Others confuse manly confidence with boyish cockiness. These men have confused confidence with being a [censored].
Manly confidence is quiet; it�s unpretentious. But when a man walks into a room who has acquired this confidence, people can feel it.
The steps below will get you on the right track for increasing your confidence. Implement them into your life and you�ll see results quickly.
Confidence can be a sneaky thing, playing hide and seek throughout life. No, it�s not something we�re born with and never lose. It fluctuates. Our confidence can become low at the start or end of a big project, if we�re nervous or feeling deflated, or after a setback such as a botched relationship or business venture.
If you�re seeking confidence, particularly if you�ve had it once and it doesn�t seem to be around anymore, what do you do?
One man�s example shows confidence can definitely be regained if it�s been lost. Sergeant Darrell �Shifty� Powers started life as a confident young man. One of the original Band of Brothers, Shifty was one of only two men in an elite company of 140 soldiers who initially achieved the designation of �expert marksman.� When it came to shooting rifles�and hitting precisely what needed to be hit�Shifty�s self-assurance was equal to none.
Yet at the end of the HBO miniseries Band of Brothers, when the men are shown reflecting on their experiences, Shifty (the real man, not the actor) made this startling statement:
�You thought you could do just about anything. [But] after the war was over and you came back out, why, you lost a lot of that. Or at least I did. I lost a lot of confidence.�
I see some gentleman at this time who need this inspiration;
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One harmful mindset that can keep a man from fulfilling his calling and potential is self-coddling. This is when he convinces himself he deserves a break, and runs to something that ultimately harms himself.
The WWII Marines of K/3/5 had been fighting on Guadalcanal for weeks. C-rations had run out, and the men ate twice daily portions of coconuts and wormy rice they�d confiscated from the Japanese.
PFC Sid Phillips (featured in HBO�s The Pacific) grew increasingly concerned for his hometown friend, W.O. Brown, racked with severe dysentery. Everything W.O. tried to eat ran straight through him. There was no medicine. No cots to lie on. The sick were simply stretched out on the ground. W.O. grew so emaciated he was too weak even to sit up. Flies covered him as he lay in his own diarrhea.
�It was bad,� Phillips reported in an interview with me. �I didn�t think W.O. was going to survive.�
Each day, Phillips carried W.O. to the ocean and helped him get clean. I asked Phillips if he remembered any specific conversations he had with W.O. during these times of carrying him. Here, I was expecting a poignant story. I pictured this young battle-hardened Marine carrying his nearly-dead buddy to the water. �Keep holding on,� Phillips would whisper. �Have courage. Just think of mom and apple pie.� Something like that.
But Phillips just chuckled. �Oh yeah, I remember. I told W.O. to stop being such a faker and take a salt tablet.�
The response threw me. I asked Phillips (who eventually became a medical doctor) what his strategy was.
�Well, it didn�t help a man to overly commiserate with him,� Phillips said. �If you did, it just depressed him. But if you kidded him, it made him smile. The ribbing was all good natured. He�d fire back some wisecrack at you, and soon he�d get to fighting again.�
A high school football movie comes to mind... Johnny Be Good? I can't remember...
A player gets hurt after a play, and complains to the coach; "Coach, I think I broke my [Richard]!"
The coach's response?
"Rub some dirt on it, and get back in there!"
Men are strange creatures... we are prone to the same forces which women are, and prone to the same collapse. Yet, it seems that for us, we first must be WILLING to collapse.
Why is it that a rib from a comrade will somehow give us enough vigor to take that next step, and the next, then the next?
Maybe it is the way we are wired to rise to challenges.
Now, in some eyes I am still a pup. But, in my time, I have worked with a broad range of men (and women) from a menagerie of backgrounds, levels of education, and social placements.
Yet, "the game" remains ever intact. The constant jabber and exchange of jabs and taunts, the stream of endless, almost boyish, playfulness never ceases. Most of the dialogue that happens between male colleagues, in my observation, has two possible outcomes if one were to attempt to carry it on to interaction with women; 1) a sexual harassment lawsuit, 2) an apology for being crass, rude, or cruel (and possibly another lawsuit).
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How does this apply to manhood today?
Phillips respected W.O. Brown as someone who had the capacity to get up and go on. So let�s believe the same about ourselves.
Anytime a man is in a downed place�i.e. he�s annoyed, angry, tired, hurt, lonely, stressed, or frustrated�he is tempted to become overly sympathetic with himself. He gets that insidious, creepy, pampering mindset that tells him he deserves a break�just this once.
I�m not talking about kicking back on the couch with a bag of Doritos. Not that kind of a break.
I�m talking about blowing it: the lie that it�s okay to run to a favorite vice. We�ve all got them. We run to whatever ultimately harms us, because we�ve convinced ourselves it helps. It�s the worst form of coddling.
What�s the solution?
Get tough with yourself. Knock it off, ya faker. Take a salt tablet, and get back to the battle. Sure, frustrations exist. But you don�t need that bottle. You don�t need that porn. You don�t need to give in to that moment of rage on the freeway. You�ve only convinced yourself you do.
By the way, the strategy works. W.O. Brown survived the dysentery�and the war.
Going to get more in-depth later this week when I'm off work (Thursday or so) - but this little bit here is going to set the theme;
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In the clip, Steve Paulson interviews Donovan Campbell, currently an author and business executive and also a veteran of three combat deployments � two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. In 2004, Campbell was serving as a Marine platoon leader at the beginning of the insurgency in Ramadi. His platoon saw a ton of combat, and half of his unit would eventually be wounded. Campbell pledged to get all his men home alive, but during an attack, one of Campbell�s men was killed. Paulson and Campbell revisit an interview they did four years ago about the tragic incident, and Campbell speaks about meeting the killed Marine�s mother, and apologizing to her for failing to bring her son home. He speaks stirringly about how a leader must take responsibility, even if he�s not directly to blame for something:
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�I still own my responsibility in the failure to bring him home. It may not have been my fault, but it was my responsibility. I was the leader and there was only one person to look to, when you, for everything that your men do or fail to do, and that�s the leader�That�s the right mentality to have, even though you may err on the side of carrying too much weight. Particularly as I�ve seen leadership as applied in, well, at least in my context in the business world, I think that the Marines get it right, and they got it right by teaching me from the get-go that hey, it is your job as a leader to accept responsibility, that�s what you do, particularly to accept responsibility for failure. And when you�re given these forty young men, we�re going to tell you your life is no longer about yourself, it�s about taking care of them and achieving your mission. That�s a, I realize now that that�s a rare philosophy, and that�s a rare leadership model. We say that life is not about you anymore. The minute you pin on the rank, and the minute you accept that paycheck, you accept responsibility and you accept a commitment to something greater than yourself. And I think that applies just as much now as it did then.�
"It may have not been my fault, but it was my responsibility... even though you may err on the side of carrying too much weight... your life is no longer about you... the minute you pin that rank, the minute you cash that paycheck you accept responsibility and you accept commitment to something greater than yourself..."
Restated; "The moment you put that ring on your finger, you accept responsibility and you accept committment to something greater than yourself."
Personal Responsibility 101: Why Is It So Hard to Own Up to Our Mistakes?
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All humans are essentially ego-driven creatures. Starting from a young age we develop an identity � a self-concept and self-image � constructed of our beliefs and how we view ourselves. Most of us think of ourselves as pretty decent people, better than average in certain areas, maybe a little worse than average in a few, but always trying to do our best. We believe we see the world realistically, and act rationally.
When our own thoughts and behaviors, or the accusation of another, challenges our cherished self-concept, we experience what is called cognitive dissonance � a form of mental discomfort and tension. Cognitive dissonance arises when you attempt to hold two conflicting beliefs/attitudes/ideas/opinions at the same time. For example: �I know smoking is bad for me�but I smoke a pack a day anyway.� Because our minds crave consonance and clarity over contradiction and conflict, we immediately seek to dissipate the mental tension created by cognitive dissonance. The smoker can reduce their dissonance either by throwing the cigarettes away and trying to quit, or by thinking to himself as he lights up, �People say that smoking is bad, but my grandfather smoked two packs a day for fifty years and never got cancer. It�s fine.�
When we make mistakes, the gap between our questionable behavior and our sterling self-concept creates cognitive dissonance. We can allay this dissonance either by admitting that we made a mistake and revaluating our self-concept in light of it, or by justifying the behavior as not in conflict with our self-concept after all.
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The pieces the brain chooses to compose our memories are those that best preserve and protect our self-concept. We have all had experiences where our memory of an event differed from that of another person. While the ensuing argument often presumes that one person is remembering it accurately, and one is not, what is more likely is that each is remembering it from their own angle � one that highlights their innocence as opposed to culpability.
Memories also change over time, as our present experiences and attitudes alter and shape how we see the past. This bears reiteration: Our memory of the past doesn�t simply shape who we are today, we also shape the memory according to how we�re doing in the present.
For example, a study asked teenagers and parents to come into a lab and list their areas of disagreement, then spend ten minutes discussing the conflict together and trying to resolve it. The teenagers would then rate how they felt about the conflict and their parents. Six weeks later, the teenagers were asked to remember how they felt about the conflict at the time of their first visit to the lab; those who were currently feeling close to their parents remembered the rating they had given as lower than it was, while those whose relationships to their parents were more strained remembered their rating as being worse than it was. Their current feelings altered the memory of how they had felt in the past.
This distortion can be magnified as we think over the sweep of our lives. Every person feels the need to fit their personal history into a narrative. The lead-up, the turning points, the bad guys and good guys, our triumphs over obstacles that made us who we are. For instance, �I grew up in a very religious family with uber-strict parents. I never questioned what they taught me until I got to college in New York. And then I became an atheist, and my family disowned me. And I�ve had to make it on my own but it�s made me stronger.�
We explain our lives through the filter of this narrative. And if we�re currently in a chapter of the story where we feel more down-and-out than triumphant, we�re inclined to remember episodes of the past that we believe led to our current struggles and confirm our narrative, and forget details that are dissonant with it. This is often the case for those who blame their parents for how they�ve turned out.
Hope its ok to join in here�not in recovery but this thread has really spoken to me. I think it�s important for men to support each other. I�ve got no real input as I�m not willing to pull the trigger on separating from my wife. I can�t stand the idea of losing my kids even part time. I�ve already told my wife if she wants to leave�no problem. If she planned to replace me that dude better be prepared to taste some blood!
I�m tired of the stereotype of the stupid �just another one of my kids� husband. I�d like to find a way have her see me as an equal�not a wallet or another child she has to take care of.
Hope its ok to join in here�not in recovery but this thread has really spoken to me. I think it�s important for men to support each other. I�ve got no real input as I�m not willing to pull the trigger on separating from my wife. I can�t stand the idea of losing my kids even part time. I�ve already told my wife if she wants to leave�no problem. If she planned to replace me that dude better be prepared to taste some blood!
I�m tired of the stereotype of the stupid �just another one of my kids� husband. I�d like to find a way have her see me as an equal�not a wallet or another child she has to take care of.
What strength does the faith and support of others create?
There are two parts of this; 1) finding those that will put their faith in us, and will grant us support.
2) Our own determination to rise to the challenge.
Case in point;
A young man whose mother was told would never walk due to cerebral palsy decided he wanted to learn parkour, or free running. A sport that is part running, part gymnastics, party defying gravity.
You see the progression.
The closing text in the video is as follows;
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That first day his mom walked in to talk to me, she was upset about seeing him crash. She said to me "I'm tired of seeing him get hurt and rejected, he saw this in a video and thought he would try it. But no matter where I take him he is always cast aside... gymnastics wouldn't take him, martial arts, soccer..." I stopped her.
I explained what I saw, "Listen your kid is trying 20 times harder than anyone to try to prove that he is normal, that he can do it. I believe he has the potential to get better, you just have to bring him back. I expect to see you guys back next time." She smiled and she sat back down and watched.
A month-and-a-half later the class was having a hard time getting over a 5ft wall. Rooster ran up the wall with no hands and landed on top. With tears in her eyes, his mom looked over and said "Oh my God, that's my son."
The next day, Rooster adds me on Facebook.
He sees me online and says "Hey man, thank you."
Me: "It's no problem, when you train hard, you get better."
Rooster: "No man, not that.
The first time I saw my mom walk into that class, I knew that it meant it was time to go. This was the last time that I was going to try something new.
I was going to give up on everything and just stay home on the computer, but as I was walking over I heard what you said about me and it reminded me that some people do care about me and still believe that I can be someone.
So I never gave up, cause I wanted to make you proud."
The trainer takes no credit for a young man working to reach his potential, and the young man reaches his potential, and thanks the trainer for showing him the path, and supporting his journey.
When I arrived here, though the battle of ending my wife's affair had past, though the trickle-truth and fog had already been vanquished... I was still broken, bleeding... and angry.
And I was angry with myself, for being angry.
This thread was and is largely a selfish endeavor! It is patching the holes in myself so that I have the strength to apply the principals of this program.
As I began my officiating career, I was blessed by being taken under the wing of a legend in the discipline. One of his warnings to me, as I started to demonstrate some ability and potential, was:
NG, stay confident, yet never arrogant! Confidence is knowing you have the tools and insight to handle this job. Arrogance would be thinking you reached that level on your own.
Did you stop reading yet? Dad gummit, LADIES, STOP READING!
Fellas, I am issuing a challenge;
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A Resolution for Romance: The 52 Loves Notes Challenge
The Challenge
The instant communication tools of today have nearly obliterated the love letter, which is a crying shame. Don�t get me wrong, I really love the tech wonders of our day. Email? I love it�so useful. Texting? Same deal. Twitter? Addictive as all get out. These are all fantastic tools for communicating with co-workers, making plans with friends�even asking for the grocery list.
At the end of the day, though, a well-written love letter communicates deep affection in a way that a bazillion texts, emails, and tweets never can.
In my own life, it was easy to see how my obsession with �instant� had steadily eroded the inclination to put extra thought and time into carefully written love letters to my wife. So last year I decided to change that. In January of 2011, I pledged to write one love note to my wife for every week of the year. That�s 52 of �em.
I knew going into it that it would be a real challenge for me. Mainly, I didn�t trust my ability to write one love note per week. I was sure I�d forget and miss weeks, and thus blow the challenge.
My solution was to write the notes in bursts. Sitting down for an evening, I would compose between 5 and 10 notes, and then distribute them over the course of the following weeks. This kept me on track, and as 2011 came to a close, I could look back over the year and enjoy the satisfaction of knowing I had delivered all 52 loves notes to my wife.
The challenge turned out to be something both my wife and I truly enjoyed. I had a blast hiding them in places I knew Sarah would find them. (Hint: The fridge is an awesome place. As is the bathroom counter. As is her pillow.) I loved watching Sarah find and read the notes. And she told me how special, cherished, and treasured she felt when she read the letters. I sometimes catch her re-reading old love notes and smiling to herself�and man! That makes me feel SO good.
Over the course of the year our relationship took on a new energy, a lightness. All in all, the 52 Love Notes Challenge was an unequivocal success.
I remember back when my wife used to send a sweet note to me in my lunch. It made my whole day and I called her and told her so every time she did it. Great idea guy
From AoM, cherry picked to fit conversation with your wife.
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3. Never interrupt anyone who is speaking; it is quite rude to officiously supply a name or date about which another hesitates, unless you are asked to do so. Another gross breach of etiquette is to anticipate the point of a story which another person is reciting, or to take it from his lips to finish it in your own language. Some persons plead as an excuse for this breach of etiquette, that the reciter was spoiling a good story by a bad manner, but this does not mend the matter. It is surely rude to give a man to understand that you do not consider him capable of finishing an anecdote that he has commenced.
4. It is ill-bred to put on an air of weariness during a long speech from another person, and quite as rude to look at a watch, read a letter, flirt the leaves of a book, or in any other action show that you are tired of the speaker or his subject.
10. It is as great an accomplishment to listen with an air of interest and attention, as it is to speak well. To be a good listener is as indispensable as to be a good talker, and it is in the character of listener that you can most readily detect the man who is accustomed to good society.
15. In speaking of your friends, do not compare them, one with another. Speak of the merits of each one, but do not try to heighten the virtues of one by contrasting them with the vices of another.
18. Avoid set phrases, and use quotations but rarely. They sometimes make a very piquant addition to conversation, but when they become a constant habit, they are exceedingly tedious, and in bad taste.
20. Speak your own language correctly; at the same time do not be too great a stickler for formal correctness of phrases.
21. Never notice it if others make mistakes in language. To notice by word or look such errors in those around you is excessively ill-bred.
29. To use phrases which admit of a double meaning, is ungentlemanly.
30. If you find you are becoming angry in a conversation, either turn to another subject or keep silence. You may utter, in the heat of passion, words which you would never use in a calmer moment, and which you would bitterly repent when they were once said.
37. A lady of sense will feel more complimented if you converse with her upon instructive, high subjects, than if you address to her only the language of compliment. In the latter case she will conclude that you consider her incapable of discussing higher subjects, and you cannot expect her to be pleased at being considered merely a silly, vain person, who must be flattered into good humor.
Supplementary notes:
#3 - turn off the TV, put the phone/tablet down. Log off the computer. Undivided Attention.
#4/#10 - friends of good conversation.
#15 - vocalization of contrast, disrespectful judgement. "Why do you XXX, when so-and-so YYY."
#18 - Agreed upon safety phrases? Ok. But, I'll bet a wooden nickel that it would not be advised in conversation to tell your spouse "But, Dr. Harley says...!" Leave that to worksheets, coaching sessions, radio calls, and forum posts. NEVER to your spouse.
#21 - GUILTY. DJ; correcting your spouse's speech.
#29 - If she doesn't like to be groped, she probably doesn't also want to hear "Oh, I'll COOK YOUR DINNER alright! Wah ha!"
#30 - Basic avoidance of emotional outbursts.
#37 - Like seasoning; none is bland, too much ruins the dish.
Today, I released my final movie, Into the Tin. It is my final movie, not because I�ve grown bored with movie making, but because it demands time I don�t have. Of course, my story is no different than yours � who has time to make machinima? We all work, and many of us have spouses and children. Family is a man�s number one priority, and in order to provide, one must work. When work and family take up all hours of the day, then something has to go. These are my normal, non-unique reasons for giving up movie making.
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When I was single and in college, I never really appreciated the time and sleepless nights movie making requires. Now, I value that time so much more, because (as cheeky as it sounds) every minute spent movie making is a minute away from my wife. Every night spent animating is a night I miss with my baby son.
This was a man's passionate hobby... but when it comes down to it... something has to go.
You ain't gonna believe this, but you used to fit right here. I'd hold you up to say to your mother, "this kid's gonna be the best kid in the world. This kid's gonna be somebody better than anybody I ever knew."
And you grew up good and wonderful. It was great just watching you, every day was like a privilege. Then the time come for you to be your own man and take on the world, and you did.
But somewhere along the line, you changed.You stopped being you. You let people stick a finger in your face and tell you you're no good. And when things got hard, you started looking for something to blame,like a big shadow.
Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beatyoutoyourkneesand keep you there permanently if you let it.
You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life.
But it ain't about how hard you're hit.
It's about how hard you can get it and
keep
moving
forward.
How much you can take and
keep
moving
forward.
That's how winning is done!
Now if you know what you're worth then go out and get what you're worth!!!
But ya gotta be willing to take the hits, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you wanna be because of him, or her, or anybody!
Cowards do that and that ain't you!
You're better than that!
I'm always gonna love you no matter what. No matter what happens. You're my son and you're my blood. You're the best thing in my life. But until you start believing in yourself, ya ain't gonna have a life. Don't forget to visit your mother.
Today, I released my final movie, Into the Tin. It is my final movie, not because I�ve grown bored with movie making, but because it demands time I don�t have. Of course, my story is no different than yours � who has time to make machinima? We all work, and many of us have spouses and children. Family is a man�s number one priority, and in order to provide, one must work. When work and family take up all hours of the day, then something has to go. These are my normal, non-unique reasons for giving up movie making.
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When I was single and in college, I never really appreciated the time and sleepless nights movie making requires. Now, I value that time so much more, because (as cheeky as it sounds) every minute spent movie making is a minute away from my wife. Every night spent animating is a night I miss with my baby son.
This was a man's passionate hobby... but when it comes down to it... something has to go.
I think he made the right choice.
Well, having read the blog post, I think this is a bit of selective editing. Most of it is how he couldn't sufficiently monetize it and wasn't getting enough business support. He also said he would continue to do some related activities in his spare time. So he's not really entirely throwing away his passion IMV...just the most costly iteration of it.
Today, I released my final movie, Into the Tin. It is my final movie, not because I�ve grown bored with movie making, but because it demands time I don�t have. Of course, my story is no different than yours � who has time to make machinima? We all work, and many of us have spouses and children. Family is a man�s number one priority, and in order to provide, one must work. When work and family take up all hours of the day, then something has to go. These are my normal, non-unique reasons for giving up movie making.
Quote
When I was single and in college, I never really appreciated the time and sleepless nights movie making requires. Now, I value that time so much more, because (as cheeky as it sounds) every minute spent movie making is a minute away from my wife. Every night spent animating is a night I miss with my baby son.
This was a man's passionate hobby... but when it comes down to it... something has to go.
I think he made the right choice.
Well, having read the blog post, I think this is a bit of selective editing. Most of it is how he couldn't sufficiently monetize it and wasn't getting enough business support. He also said he would continue to do some related activities in his spare time. So he's not really entirely throwing away his passion IMV...just the most costly iteration of it.
Monetization was drawn out to; make enough money to have it as a full-time job, which it would have to be to remain a part of his life.
I read a recent article where women surveyed said they favored clean shaved men. The scientists thought that it was because women have evolved and no longer feel the need for a caveman to protect them....
I suppose I favored Brut because my grandfather used it. I've always used it or Old Spice
I've been banned from using any Brut or Old Spice product BECAUSE DWs father and grandfather used them. Smell is one of the most powerful senses. FWIW, I would look into something newer that potential dates wouldn't associate with other men in their life.
I would totally grow a beard if job allowed...but no 'stache. I came home from sea once with a "Tom Sellick" and DW couldn't stop laughing. DS (2 at the time) stroked it and asked "what happened?"
I like the way a mustache looks, most of the time, but my face simply can't handle the scratchiness. My H grew one for a bit a couple of years ago, because the base was commemorating a historical guy who had a mustache. I really really tried to like it and enjoy it...but, after about three weeks, he went to the base meeting and announced that the mustache was cutting into his love life and therefore, no offense to those who were sporting one or to the guy they were commemorating, the mustache was going.
As to smell, lots of women love cologne on a man. I like just the smell of clean. My H doesn't wear aftershave or even a scented deodorant because of my abnormally particular nose.
Going to get more in-depth later this week when I'm off work (Thursday or so) - but this little bit here is going to set the theme;
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In the clip, Steve Paulson interviews Donovan Campbell, currently an author and business executive and also a veteran of three combat deployments � two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. In 2004, Campbell was serving as a Marine platoon leader at the beginning of the insurgency in Ramadi. His platoon saw a ton of combat, and half of his unit would eventually be wounded. Campbell pledged to get all his men home alive, but during an attack, one of Campbell�s men was killed. Paulson and Campbell revisit an interview they did four years ago about the tragic incident, and Campbell speaks about meeting the killed Marine�s mother, and apologizing to her for failing to bring her son home. He speaks stirringly about how a leader must take responsibility, even if he�s not directly to blame for something:
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�I still own my responsibility in the failure to bring him home. It may not have been my fault, but it was my responsibility. I was the leader and there was only one person to look to, when you, for everything that your men do or fail to do, and that�s the leader�That�s the right mentality to have, even though you may err on the side of carrying too much weight. Particularly as I�ve seen leadership as applied in, well, at least in my context in the business world, I think that the Marines get it right, and they got it right by teaching me from the get-go that hey, it is your job as a leader to accept responsibility, that�s what you do, particularly to accept responsibility for failure. And when you�re given these forty young men, we�re going to tell you your life is no longer about yourself, it�s about taking care of them and achieving your mission. That�s a, I realize now that that�s a rare philosophy, and that�s a rare leadership model. We say that life is not about you anymore. The minute you pin on the rank, and the minute you accept that paycheck, you accept responsibility and you accept a commitment to something greater than yourself. And I think that applies just as much now as it did then.�
"It may have not been my fault, but it was my responsibility... even though you may err on the side of carrying too much weight... your life is no longer about you... the minute you pin that rank, the minute you cash that paycheck you accept responsibility and you accept commitment to something greater than yourself..."
Restated; "The moment you put that ring on your finger, you accept responsibility and you accept committment to something greater than yourself."
�The key to understanding masculinity is Jesus Christ. Jesus was tough with religious blockheads, false teachers, the proud, and bullies. Jesus was tender with women, children, and those who were suffering or humble. Additionally, Jesus took responsibility for Himself. He worked a job for the first thirty years of His life, swinging a hammer as a carpenter. He also took responsibility for us on the cross, where He substituted Himself and died in our place for our sins. My sins are my fault, not Jesus'fault, but Jesus has made them His responsibility. This is the essence of the gospel, the "good news". If you understand this, it will change how you view masculinity.�
― Mark Driscoll, Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship, and Life Together
�At times it seems as if arranging to have no commitment of any kind to anyone would be a special freedom. But in fact the whole idea works in reverse. The most deadly commitment of all is to be committed only to one's self. Some come to realize this after they are in the nursing home.� ― John D. MacDonald, The Lonely Silver Rain
Im watching Fort Apache, and calling cards are featured in the first half of the movie
Great movie. I liked the calling card scene.
Though I think today's women would be suspicious of a man using a calling card today. Though how many of those cards would get thrown away after we are out of sight?
Oh, those poor trees that ended their lives prematurely just so we can pursue women.
For the past couple weeks ive returned to the cold showers and its a good way to start the morning. Art of Manliness wrote an article about cold showers and even James Bond took them. is anyone else taking them?
Oh and for the past few months ive been using Brylocream for morning hair styling. It works great and is endorsed in an Art of Manliness article. what is everyone else using for morning hair styling?
The secret to masculinity isn't found in articles. It is found at the hardware store. Real men have lots of tools. The more obscure the tool, the better. I have a special tool for truing floor joists. Now, that's manly!
That is very true. I have lots of tools. do you have a Rigid 300 pipe threading machine? That's very masculine.
I don't have that. But I have a 33 gallon air compressor and a complete set of impact sockets.
I plan jobs around the tools I can acquire. My wife wants a utility sink put in the laundry room. This may be the way I get that $150 PEX universal crimping tool I've been eyeing for awhile.
When we moved from the suburbs to the woods, I was able to finagle a chain saw out of the deal.
I think the ultimate maker of masculinity is the Brut cologne though. I've noticed that women literally grab onto me and fight to hold on as I walk down the street after splashing Brut on.
Cologne over a CHAIN-SAW? Well....OK, I can see it!
II tried this at the bar last night. I walked in, sat my chainsaw (covered with Brut) on the bar counter and ordered a drink.....well women started flocking to me. I needed some air and went outside. When I walked back in, I realized it wasn't me the women were after...it was the chainsaw! They were kissing it and talking to it and spending their child support money buying drinks for it.
Chainsaws and Brut are a powerful attractant for sure.
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CP!! 
). For me it was about not worrying and spending time in the moment. You can almost worry issues into existance.
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![[Linked Image from languagerocket.com]](http://languagerocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/oktoberfest2.jpg)
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(belated).