Marriage Builders
Posted By: Still_Crazy motherly advice - 10/21/14 06:10 PM
Ok I know what to do and have done it but I don't think it is going to make a difference.

My DD is not married but has been with her BF for about 5 years, she does NOT have an problem with OS friends (which she does not get from her mother, I have told her my opinion many many times).

So she has this OS friend that recently moved here from another state. Well I can tell that my DD is allowing this OS friend to fill ENs that her BF should be filling and I have tried and tried and tried talking to her about it to no avail.

So now this morning she tells me that she wants to break up with her BF and it has nothing to do with her OS friend (which I do not believe for one mintue).

She asked me to be on her side on this and I am not sure if I can even though it is my DD and they are not married.

What would you do if it were you?
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Ok I know what to do and have done it but I don't think it is going to make a difference.

My DD is not married but has been with her BF for about 5 years, she does NOT have an problem with OS friends (which she does not get from her mother, I have told her my opinion many many times).

So she has this OS friend that recently moved here from another state. Well I can tell that my DD is allowing this OS friend to fill ENs that her BF should be filling and I have tried and tried and tried talking to her about it to no avail.

So now this morning she tells me that she wants to break up with her BF and it has nothing to do with her OS friend (which I do not believe for one mintue).

She asked me to be on her side on this and I am not sure if I can even though it is my DD and they are not married.

What would you do if it were you?

The fact that your daughter is not married means she is free to have an many OS friendships as she'd like to. After five years, the relationship with her boyfriend is probably "stale." Dr. Harley recommends marriage after no more than about two years because of this.

If I was not in the habit of giving unwanted advice to my daughter, I would probably gently suggest that she be honest with her current boyfriend. But basically I would stay out of the way of an adult daughter.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
The fact that your daughter is not married means she is free to have an many OS friendships as she'd like to. After five years, the relationship with her boyfriend is probably "stale." Dr. Harley recommends marriage after no more than about two years because of this.

If I was not in the habit of giving unwanted advice to my daughter, I would probably gently suggest that she be honest with her current boyfriend. But basically I would stay out of the way of an adult daughter.

The only reason I am even asking is that she did come to me this morning about it and I do agree that the relationship is probably "stale" and I do usually try really hard to stay out of my children's business unless they ask for my advice, however I think she is only doing this because of the OS friend.

And even though, once again she is my DD and I love her more than life itself, she is not the best GF in the world and I do not blame her BF for waiting to marry her.

I guess I just need to let her do her own thing and support her however I can.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 06:48 PM
Encourage your daughter to not have sex or live with boyfriends until married.
It would save her a lot of wasted time.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 06:51 PM
But it's okay if your daughter is breaking the relationship with her current boyfriend in order to date someone else. She is not married.

Do you listen to the radio show? The Harleys discuss dating a lot. They advocate lots of dating for fun, without sex or living together. They have also said that a great way to have a romantic relationship is when it starts out as a friendship.

It's tough being the mother of an adult child; I understand! My daughter is 33, married with four young children. My H and I often bite our tongues. Sometimes, in the right moment, we can occasionally offer some guidance, but mostly we bite our tongues. Because we have severely-bitten tongues smile , though, she has, in the last couple of years, started coming to us to ask our advice on certain topics of marriage, and we get to gently give her MB advice. That makes us very happy!
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 06:53 PM
What you can do to help your DD is provide her with some MB materials. Such as "Fall In Love, Stay In Love." I would also recommend "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders." I know for myself, I would have loved to know BEFORE getting marriage what I know now about how to create and maintain a great relationship and marriage. Also how to properly choose a marriage partner.

Perhaps she is a 'bad gf' because she doesn't know how to be a good one. Most of us have ended up here because we aren't exactly the worlds greatest spouse, we just didn't have the knowledge and tools how to be! Providing her with that knowledge and tools NOW would be so beneficial to her as she dates and plans for marriage someday.

There is of course no guarantee she would read any books you provide her, or heed any advice. But at least you can try to guide her in the right direction.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
But it's okay if your daughter is breaking the relationship with her current boyfriend in order to date someone else. She is not married.

Do you listen to the radio show? The Harleys discuss dating a lot. They advocate lots of dating for fun, without sex or living together. They have also said that a great way to have a romantic relationship is when it starts out as a friendship.

It's tough being the mother of an adult child; I understand! My daughter is 33, married with four young children. My H and I often bite our tongues. Sometimes, in the right moment, we can occasionally offer some guidance, but mostly we bite our tongues. Because we have severely-bitten tongues smile , though, she has, in the last couple of years, started coming to us to ask our advice on certain topics of marriage, and we get to gently give her MB advice. That makes us very happy!


I guess you are right, I just thought they would get married and I love him and he is really good to her, but if she is not �happy� with him then it is definitely better to do it now than after they are married. Also I know that the dating without sex and living together is not going to happen either. And yes I do know it is tough with adult children, I have bitten my tongue more times than I can tell you smile
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/21/14 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
What you can do to help your DD is provide her with some MB materials. Such as "Fall In Love, Stay In Love." I would also recommend "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders." I know for myself, I would have loved to know BEFORE getting marriage what I know now about how to create and maintain a great relationship and marriage. Also how to properly choose a marriage partner.

Perhaps she is a 'bad gf' because she doesn't know how to be a good one. Most of us have ended up here because we aren't exactly the worlds greatest spouse, we just didn't have the knowledge and tools how to be! Providing her with that knowledge and tools NOW would be so beneficial to her as she dates and plans for marriage someday.

There is of course no guarantee she would read any books you provide her, or heed any advice. But at least you can try to guide her in the right direction.

Sad to say that I am not sure if MB will help her be a better GF, like I said she is my DD and I love her more than life and would not let others talk about her but she is very very very selfish and does not think of others in most anything she does.
It is strange to me because I am not that way and neither of our other two children are that way but this one is and I am not sure if anything is going to bring her out of that.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/22/14 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
she is not the best GF in the world and I do not blame her BF for waiting to marry her.

Then it's probably a good thing that they are breaking up...even if the break up is coming from her. You said you like the BF...then he should be treated better. If DD is as selfish as you said, he is better off without her IMO. Maybe the bf will be relieved.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/24/14 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Then it's probably a good thing that they are breaking up...even if the break up is coming from her. You said you like the BF...then he should be treated better. If DD is as selfish as you said, he is better off without her IMO. Maybe the bf will be relieved.

Well she did break up with him on Tuesday and he does seem relieved, she has already said she hopes she made the right decision because she does not know if anyone beside him can put up with her..........

And I really do want the best for the BF too because I do love him as my own son and my DD is hard to deal with even for me........
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/26/14 01:25 PM
Things are really crazy here now, my DD and her BF live with us and as I said before I always thought they would get married because they have worked towards that for these 5 years getting things together like they share a bank account, they bought a car, they have a dog, all of the stuff for a house together (that is why they were staying here to save money for a down payment on a house).

So now the BF needs a car and will not be able to afford a car payment and a place to live by himself so after talking to my DD he is still going to live here but it is awkward for sure and I still feel so bad for him because he didn't see it coming at all and I also feel like a HORRIBLE mother for being so upset with my DD for all of this because she is infatuated with someone else.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/26/14 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Things are really crazy here now, my DD and her BF live with us and as I said before I always thought they would get married because they have worked towards that for these 5 years getting things together like they share a bank account, they bought a car, they have a dog, all of the stuff for a house together (that is why they were staying here to save money for a down payment on a house).

So now the BF needs a car and will not be able to afford a car payment and a place to live by himself so after talking to my DD he is still going to live here but it is awkward for sure and I still feel so bad for him because he didn't see it coming at all and I also feel like a HORRIBLE mother for being so upset with my DD for all of this because she is infatuated with someone else.

S_C it is a HORRIBLE idea to let this living arrangement continue. You did not mention that DD and the BF lived with you. Sorry to say it but you are continuing to be an enabler in a bad situation. You allowed DD and BF to play house in your home and you are still enabling them to act like children out of guilt. Either DD or the ex=BF need to go. Ex-BF can find a roommate. If you feel that bad for the young man, then give him a month to find a new place and $500 to go buy a car and charge DD $500 for rent to pay you back. Or ex-BF gets the car and DD has to suck it up and deal with it.

Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/26/14 10:40 PM
Dr Harley strongly advises against living together before marriage. The rate of divorce increases for couples who live together before marriage. Even if not for religious or moral reasons, I would assume you want your daughter to be in a stable marriage with the best chances of longevity, in which case you would NOT want to promote this destructive living arrangement.

I would recommend you also read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. Your DD and her BF have been living as Renters, playing house with an easy out because they did not fully invest, with your blessing AND your assistance.

I don't know how old the BF is, but you need to start treating him like a full grown adult which I am guessing he is. As a full grown adult, I assume he has the ability to find himself a job, or two, or three if he needs to, in order to find himself a place to live and method of transportation.

You are not a horrible mother, but you do seem to be enabling your daughters entitled and self serving behavior a bit.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/26/14 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Things are really crazy here now, my DD and her BF live with us and as I said before I always thought they would get married because they have worked towards that for these 5 years getting things together

faint I am in shock... SC, what were you thinking when you allowed a man to sleep with your own daughter in your own home? Allowing this to take place under your roof is an endorsement.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/26/14 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
As a full grown adult, I assume he has the ability to find himself a job, or two, or three if he needs to, in order to find himself a place to live and method of transportation.

x 2

I don't understand how they were possibly considering marriage if this guy (and even DD) can't even afford a car payment or rent on his own. If they have nothing in the bank, they would have been saving for a down payment forever. No ring and no money but they have a dog and were buying things for a house they can't afford? I don't get this at all. dontknow
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 01:46 PM
Yes yes yes I know all of this but they do not believe that living together is a bad thing (most of their generation does not believe it is a bad thing and I would say 90% of their friends live together as well and no matter what I say to them I am old fashioned) they have been living together on their own since well before I let them live with me and the BF does have a job and worked two for quite a while until he got this one but he works tons of overtime so he does not really have time to work a second job.

The BF had a horrible mother who was a drug addict and died of a drug over dose when he was 15 years old and he considers me his mother. The friends he has are through my daughter and it may be awkward to ask them to be a room mate, the two of them are tring to work out all of that. This guy is an AWESOME guy who I love as deeply as I do one of my children.

I do not have the money to give him a down payment on a vehicle and the two of them are working out the down payment and such but it will take all the money they have saved and without a room mate I don't think he can afford rent, utilities and a car payment on his own. And he paid more on the current vehicle than my DD, but she will not give it up because the BF has been bicycling to work and that is the reason they figured they could get by with one car until they paid this one off and then get another one TOGETHER before it got too cold out for the BF to keep riding his bike to work. And my DD would have no other way to work besides this current vehicle.

And the reason they have household things together is because they lived in their own place before they lived with me (two different places) so they have furniture and everything which is all in storage.

My DD wants him to stay there because she feels guilty about breaking up with him out of the blue, he did not suspect anything, and she wants to pay half of his car payment until he can pay it off. I am not sure about the BF, I think he is still just kind of in shock because it was very much unexpected.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Yes yes yes I know all of this but they do not believe that living together is a bad thing .

Yes, but the issue is YOUR BELIEF since they live in YOUR HOME. What if your daughter believed that mainlining heroin was a good thing? Would you allow her to do something so self destructive in your home? Why would you enable your own daughter in such self destructive behavior?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 02:01 PM
I understand what you are saying Melody but regardless of my beliefs I can't push them on my children, I have always encouraged to them to form their own opinions and while I tell them all the time that they should be married it does not change anything and they would live together anyway so my thought process was that if I let them live with me long enough to save toward their marriage and house then at least I was doing something to head it in that direction.

And I most certainly would throw my daughter and her BF out on the streets if they were doing drugs or any other illegal activity.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I understand what you are saying Melody but regardless of my beliefs I can't push them on my children,

I would leave beliefs out of it - having adult children living with you long term when those adult children seem incapable of caring for themselves is going to make you crazy.

They will not learn to fly until they are knocked out of the nest.

This guy is a deadbeat for shacking up with some girl and letting the girl's mother pay for his living expenses. He's a bum. He needs to be gone today, and she needs to be given notice that she's got a month or a week or something to find some other arrangement for herself.

No wonder your daughter is not in love with him any more - he's a bum!
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
if I let them live with me long enough to save toward their marriage and house

How much does it cost to get married? A license is less than $50, right? crazy

How many years have they lived with you, and they still don't have $50 to their name?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:01 PM
Quote
Yes yes yes I know all of this but they do not believe that living together is a bad thing (most of their generation does not believe it is a bad thing and I would say 90% of their friends live together as well and no matter what I say to them I am old fashioned)
I would say that a good number of my generation do not see anything wrong with living together, either, and yet there is no way in hell my mom would have ever let me shack up with a boyfriend in her home.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I understand what you are saying Melody but regardless of my beliefs I can't push them on my children,

I would leave beliefs out of it - having adult children living with you long term when those adult children seem incapable of caring for themselves is going to make you crazy.

They will not learn to fly until they are knocked out of the nest.

This guy is a deadbeat for shacking up with some girl and letting the girl's mother pay for his living expenses. He's a bum. He needs to be gone today, and she needs to be given notice that she's got a month or a week or something to find some other arrangement for herself.

No wonder your daughter is not in love with him any more - he's a bum!

That is far from the truth, he has supported them for the most part, my DD is the bum!!!
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
if I let them live with me long enough to save toward their marriage and house

How much does it cost to get married? A license is less than $50, right? crazy

How many years have they lived with you, and they still don't have $50 to their name?

My DD wanted a big wedding with all the everything and me and her dad don't have the money for anything so they will be doing it on their own. I am not trying to make excuses for them I am just telling you what has happened.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Yes yes yes I know all of this but they do not believe that living together is a bad thing (most of their generation does not believe it is a bad thing and I would say 90% of their friends live together as well and no matter what I say to them I am old fashioned)
I would say that a good number of my generation do not see anything wrong with living together, either, and yet there is no way in hell my mom would have ever let me shack up with a boyfriend in her home.

Nor would have mine but like I said I thought it would help head them in the direction of marriage which is what I have wanted all along and they would have lived together whether they lived with me or not.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Yes yes yes I know all of this but they do not believe that living together is a bad thing (most of their generation does not believe it is a bad thing and I would say 90% of their friends live together as well and no matter what I say to them I am old fashioned)
I would say that a good number of my generation do not see anything wrong with living together, either, and yet there is no way in hell my mom would have ever let me shack up with a boyfriend in her home.

Nor would have mine but like I said I thought it would help head them in the direction of marriage which is what I have wanted all along and they would have lived together whether they lived with me or not.

But having your daughter and her boyfriend live with you condoned and enabled their poor choice of lifestyle.

Of course we need to avoid foisting our beliefs onto others, since it's mostly futile anyway and often drives away the recipients of our unwanted wisdom; however, if an adult child makes a decision against our own beliefs, we certainly can avoid supporting the choice financially.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I understand what you are saying Melody but regardless of my beliefs I can't push them on my children,

I would leave beliefs out of it - having adult children living with you long term when those adult children seem incapable of caring for themselves is going to make you crazy.

They will not learn to fly until they are knocked out of the nest.

This guy is a deadbeat for shacking up with some girl and letting the girl's mother pay for his living expenses. He's a bum. He needs to be gone today, and she needs to be given notice that she's got a month or a week or something to find some other arrangement for herself.

No wonder your daughter is not in love with him any more - he's a bum!

That is far from the truth, he has supported them for the most part, my DD is the bum!!!

Yet she's making his car payments.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
if I let them live with me long enough to save toward their marriage and house

How much does it cost to get married? A license is less than $50, right? crazy

How many years have they lived with you, and they still don't have $50 to their name?

My DD wanted a big wedding with all the everything and me and her dad don't have the money for anything so they will be doing it on their own. I am not trying to make excuses for them I am just telling you what has happened.

I have no idea why that should stop them getting married.

You want a nice steak dinner, but you are broke, so you buy hotdogs.

You want a trip to Europe, but you can't afford it, so you take a weekend trip to see the sights in the next county.

You want a big wedding, but you can't afford it, so you go get married by a justice of the peace.

I don't see any excuses as necessary - I just have no idea why you tolerate this crazy making from your daughter. If she wants to live that way, that's her choice, but why should it be at your expense? You aren't helping her by enabling such irresponsible behavior.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Yes yes yes I know all of this but they do not believe that living together is a bad thing (most of their generation does not believe it is a bad thing and I would say 90% of their friends live together as well and no matter what I say to them I am old fashioned)
I would say that a good number of my generation do not see anything wrong with living together, either, and yet there is no way in hell my mom would have ever let me shack up with a boyfriend in her home.

Nor would have mine but like I said I thought it would help head them in the direction of marriage which is what I have wanted all along and they would have lived together whether they lived with me or not.

No, helping people live together doesn't help them move in the direction of marriage. It helps them decide that marriage is never necessary.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD wanted a big wedding with all the everything...

DD has no business getting married. If she is a bum and treated her ex-BF poorly, getting a marriage license is ill advised. She sounds very immature.

I don't think you will take any advice discontinuing this living arrangement but if you really think of this boy as a son, I would have DD move out. She has a car and furniture in storage. She needs to grow up.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
if I let them live with me long enough to save toward their marriage and house

How much does it cost to get married? A license is less than $50, right? crazy

How many years have they lived with you, and they still don't have $50 to their name?

My DD wanted a big wedding with all the everything and me and her dad don't have the money for anything so they will be doing it on their own. I am not trying to make excuses for them I am just telling you what has happened.

But they are not doing it on their own - they are doing it on your dime.

Doesn't that drive you nuts?

What you are saying to them and to us is that you value a big wedding "party," but do not value marriage.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
Do you listen to the radio show? The Harleys discuss dating a lot. They advocate lots of dating for fun, without sex or living together.

I didn't see an answer to this question.

I'd also like to suggest you recommend the radio show to your daughter. Handing some a book or radio show recommendation is a lot less intrusive than offering advice, especially from a mother to a grown daughter.

Maybe you could become regular listeners together!
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Yet she's making his car payments.

No he is making her car payments, she has been driving the car since the beginning, he rides his bike except on days that she does not have to work and then he will take the car. It is almost paid off and most of the time she only worked part time (prior to living with me) and he made the payments yet he is willing to let her have the car.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
But having your daughter and her boyfriend live with you condoned and enabled their poor choice of lifestyle.

Of course we need to avoid foisting our beliefs onto others, since it's mostly futile anyway and often drives away the recipients of our unwanted wisdom; however, if an adult child makes a decision against our own beliefs, we certainly can avoid supporting the choice financially.

I do not support them financially, they pay all of their own bills and split utilities and groceries with us this was just so they could save more money for the wedding my daughter wanted to have up until this OS friend moved back to our state and started hanging around (which was less than a month ago).
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by markos
I have no idea why that should stop them getting married.

You want a nice steak dinner, but you are broke, so you buy hotdogs.

You want a trip to Europe, but you can't afford it, so you take a weekend trip to see the sights in the next county.

You want a big wedding, but you can't afford it, so you go get married by a justice of the peace.

I don't see any excuses as necessary - I just have no idea why you tolerate this crazy making from your daughter. If she wants to live that way, that's her choice, but why should it be at your expense? You aren't helping her by enabling such irresponsible behavior.

You are preaching to the choir I have told her this for a long time and that we could do things ourselves and it would not cost as much and that mine and her dad's wedding wasn't that expensive yet it was nice but she keeps saying that is not what she wants and she didn't want to get married until she could have what she wants.

That is why I was trying to help her get her big wedding because as horrible as it makes me feel to say, I do not know if my DD will ever find another BF that will be able to put up with her, she is not easy to deal with.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
the BF does have a job and worked two for quite a while until he got this one but he works tons of overtime so he does not really have time to work a second job.

Then there is no reason he cannot afford to move out, if he is working full time plus a lot of OT.

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do not have the money to give him a down payment on a vehicle and the two of them are working out the down payment and such but it will take all the money they have saved and without a room mate I don't think he can afford rent, utilities and a car payment on his own. And he paid more on the current vehicle than my DD, but she will not give it up because the BF has been bicycling to work and that is the reason they figured they could get by with one car until they paid this one off and then get another one TOGETHER before it got too cold out for the BF to keep riding his bike to work. And my DD would have no other way to work besides this current vehicle.

Who took out the loan for the vehicle, did they take it out together? Whoever has the loan gets the vehicle and the payments to go with it. It doesn't really matter if your DD is using it to get to work, if it is BF's vehicle. Having to find a new means of transportation in that case is a consequence of her choice to pursue the new guy instead.

As far as the car goes...he can look at cheaper options, a less expensive car, taking the bus, sharing rides to work.... Bottom line is you are making excuses for everything from them living together under your roof, to the reason he can't possibly make it without you. You really need to stop being 'bff mom' and start being DD's mother.

If you love the bf like your own child, letting him stand on his own two feet is the way to show it. If you think its awkward, how good do you think it makes him feel about himself to be sponging off of his ex gf who left him for another guy's mother. And how attractive do you think it makes him to woman who will treat him better. Enabling him and helping him stay in this destructive situation is not showing him love AT ALL.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
But having your daughter and her boyfriend live with you condoned and enabled their poor choice of lifestyle.

Of course we need to avoid foisting our beliefs onto others, since it's mostly futile anyway and often drives away the recipients of our unwanted wisdom; however, if an adult child makes a decision against our own beliefs, we certainly can avoid supporting the choice financially.

I do not support them financially, they pay all of their own bills and split utilities and groceries with us this was just so they could save more money for the wedding my daughter wanted to have up until this OS friend moved back to our state and started hanging around (which was less than a month ago).

They both lived with you, did they not? They lived in your house and split the bills with you. That's helping to support them financially. If they wanted to live together and you didn't support that, they could have found an apartment and paid ALL their own bills without any of your support.

That's what I would have done had my daughter wanted to live with a boyfriend. I would have told her I thought it was wrong to make such a choice and that it was a poor lifestyle choice if she wants a great marriage. Then they would have had to completely support themselves by finding and funding a place to live without any financial support from me, to include splitting any bills of any sort.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD wanted a big wedding with all the everything...

DD has no business getting married. If she is a bum and treated her ex-BF poorly, getting a marriage license is ill advised. She sounds very immature.

I don't think you will take any advice discontinuing this living arrangement but if you really think of this boy as a son, I would have DD move out. She has a car and furniture in storage. She needs to grow up.

Actually the advice I came to ask was how to keep my daughter from breaking up with her BF because of her OS friend and it is not that I will not take the advice about the living arrangements, it is that while yes it is my house and I could tell them both to just get out, I can't do that as my DD mother and she is the one who also wants the BF to saty because she feels guilty about breaking up with him.

And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
They both lived with you, did they not? They lived in your house and split the bills with you. That's helping to support them financially. If they wanted to live together and you didn't support that, they could have found an apartment and paid ALL their own bills without any of your support.

That's what I would have done had my daughter wanted to live with a boyfriend. I would have told her I thought it was wrong to make such a choice and that it was a poor lifestyle choice if she wants a great marriage. Then they would have had to completely support themselves by finding and funding a place to live without any financial support from me, to include splitting any bills of any sort.

They lived on there own prior to moving in with me in two different places for a total of three years, prior to that they just dated and I am guessing spent the night at friends or something I do not know.

I have been telling my DD all this time that it is something I do not agree with and wanted it to change so SHE asked me to move in to save money for the wedding that she wanted to have and I agreed because I loved the BF and wanted them to get married.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
this was just so they could save more money for the wedding my daughter wanted to have

Why? Why did you want her to do this?
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I was trying to help her get her big wedding because as horrible as it makes me feel to say, I do not know if my DD will ever find another BF that will be able to put up with her, she is not easy to deal with.

Marriage Builders is about the fact that people can change. Instead of supporting her incredibly self-destructive decision to shack up with this bum, why don't you buy her some books and listen to the Marriage Builders radio show with her?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:49 PM
Then there is no reason he cannot afford to move out, if he is working full time plus a lot of OT.

Who took out the loan for the vehicle, did they take it out together? Whoever has the loan gets the vehicle and the payments to go with it. It doesn't really matter if your DD is using it to get to work, if it is BF's vehicle. Having to find a new means of transportation in that case is a consequence of her choice to pursue the new guy instead.

As far as the car goes...he can look at cheaper options, a less expensive car, taking the bus, sharing rides to work.... Bottom line is you are making excuses for everything from them living together under your roof, to the reason he can't possibly make it without you. You really need to stop being 'bff mom' and start being DD's mother.

If you love the bf like your own child, letting him stand on his own two feet is the way to show it. If you think its awkward, how good do you think it makes him feel about himself to be sponging off of his ex gf who left him for another guy's mother. And how attractive do you think it makes him to woman who will treat him better. Enabling him and helping him stay in this destructive situation is not showing him love AT ALL.
[/quote]

They took out the loan for the car TOGETHER and it is in both of their names as is everything else they have, their phone bill, the dog (they bought him). The BF has paid more for the car than my DD but he wants her to have the car not him and they only have 2 more payments.

And it does sound like I am making excuses but I am merely stating the facts, his hours would not allow him to take public transportation, it is not available when he goes to work, he could take it home.

And DD is the one who wants to help him now get a car because she feels guilty that cold weather is upon us and the BF will no longer drive the car because he considers it hers even though he paid for most of it, I have nothing to do with that except that I feel bad for him.

If anything I really should be throwing out my DD, she is the irresponsible one.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I was trying to help her get her big wedding because as horrible as it makes me feel to say, I do not know if my DD will ever find another BF that will be able to put up with her, she is not easy to deal with.

Marriage Builders is about the fact that people can change. Instead of supporting her incredibly self-destructive decision to shack up with this bum, why don't you buy her some books and listen to the Marriage Builders radio show with her?

Have tried that too, she is not interested.......
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been telling my DD all this time that it is something I do not agree with and wanted it to change so SHE asked me to move in to save money for the wedding that she wanted to have and I agreed because I loved the BF and wanted them to get married.

If my daughter did that, I would tell her that I don't care if she has a big wedding or not and that weddings are worth zero when people don't value marriage.

Your plan didn't work - all it did was help them put off getting married or breaking up longer.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I was trying to help her get her big wedding because as horrible as it makes me feel to say, I do not know if my DD will ever find another BF that will be able to put up with her, she is not easy to deal with.

Marriage Builders is about the fact that people can change. Instead of supporting her incredibly self-destructive decision to shack up with this bum, why don't you buy her some books and listen to the Marriage Builders radio show with her?

Have tried that too, she is not interested.......

When will you be letting her know she needs to leave?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been telling my DD all this time that it is something I do not agree with and wanted it to change so SHE asked me to move in to save money for the wedding that she wanted to have and I agreed because I loved the BF and wanted them to get married.

If my daughter did that, I would tell her that I don't care if she has a big wedding or not and that weddings are worth zero when people don't value marriage.

Your plan didn't work - all it did was help them put off getting married or breaking up longer.

It didn't work but it is already done and there is nothing I can do to change what is done
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I was trying to help her get her big wedding because as horrible as it makes me feel to say, I do not know if my DD will ever find another BF that will be able to put up with her, she is not easy to deal with.

Marriage Builders is about the fact that people can change. Instead of supporting her incredibly self-destructive decision to shack up with this bum, why don't you buy her some books and listen to the Marriage Builders radio show with her?

Have tried that too, she is not interested.......

When will you be letting her know she needs to leave?

I won't, she is my daughter and I can't, I certainly will not let any other BFs live here with her but I can't throw out my own kid just because she does not have the same beliefs that I have.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
They took out the loan for the car TOGETHER and it is in both of their names as is everything else they have, their phone bill, the dog (they bought him). The BF has paid more for the car than my DD but he wants her to have the car not him and they only have 2 more payments.

If they took it out together, and paid for it together, and pay it off together, then it belongs to both of them equally. Since they are splitting up, that means one would have to buy the other one out from the car, or they would have to sell the car and split the money. Right?

DD getting the car is just another example of enabling her poor behavior, although this time her bf is enabling her. He needs to get a backbone here, and you need to encourage him to do so.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?

Yes
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
this was just so they could save more money for the wedding my daughter wanted to have

Why? Why did you want her to do this?

Because even though she does not have the same beliefs as me as far as living together doesn't mean she should not have the wedding she wants. I mean when it boils down to it me personally could not just not have a relationship with my daughter because she lives with her BF
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
If you love the bf like your own child, letting him stand on his own two feet is the way to show it. If you think its awkward, how good do you think it makes him feel about himself to be sponging off of his ex gf who left him for another guy's mother. And how attractive do you think it makes him to woman who will treat him better. Enabling him and helping him stay in this destructive situation is not showing him love AT ALL.

And what about THIS, how do you feel about this? Do you think it is showing love to enable him to live in this destructive and awkward situation?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?

Yes

Well I can't, not for this, if it was for something illegal or drugs or some craziness I have heard other people talk about yes, but not just because she thinks living together is ok.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?

Yes

x2

What is YOUR reason for keeping her there and enabling her poor behavior? You said the only reason you let them move in was because you [mistakenly] thought it would help them move toward marriage. Obviously, that did not pan out and that reasoning is no longer valid. So what is your reason now? The real reason, not all this stuff about how they work full time and pay their bills and you do not support them financially, yet somehow they can't afford to move out on their own think
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?

Yes

Well I can't, not for this, if it was for something illegal or drugs or some craziness I have heard other people talk about yes, but not just because she thinks living together is ok.

That's not why you would be kicking her out though, S_C. She came to live with you to save money for a down payment on a one-day-marital house (although now it's supposedly was for a big wedding)....but neither is an issue any longer since BF is now ex-BF. Why does she need to keep living there? She lived on her own once before and she can do it again. She can find a roommate...she already has a car and household items. How old is she?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by unwritten
If you love the bf like your own child, letting him stand on his own two feet is the way to show it. If you think its awkward, how good do you think it makes him feel about himself to be sponging off of his ex gf who left him for another guy's mother. And how attractive do you think it makes him to woman who will treat him better. Enabling him and helping him stay in this destructive situation is not showing him love AT ALL.

And what about THIS, how do you feel about this? Do you think it is showing love to enable him to live in this destructive and awkward situation?

First off my DD did this to the BF and neither of them are with anyone else, he has been spending all of his money for all of their things and my DD just spent hers however she wanted for the last 5 years.

My DD is the bad guy in all of this not the BF, so how is throwing him out until he can himself together for a minute a destructive situation? It is all certainly awkward for all of us and I would think that he would want to leave but maybe he is hoping she will change her mind.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?

Yes

Well I can't, not for this, if it was for something illegal or drugs or some craziness I have heard other people talk about yes, but not just because she thinks living together is ok.

That's not why you would be kicking her out though, S_C. She came to live with you to save money for a down payment on a one-day-marital house (although now it's supposedly was for a big wedding)....but neither is an issue any longer since BF is now ex-BF. Why does she need to keep living there? She lived on her own once before and she can do it again. She can find a roommate...she already has a car and household items. How old is she?

The saving of money was for both things, her wedding and a down payment on a house. And she did not live together on her own, she lived with her BF and all of her friends live with their BFs or are married so I don't where she will find a room mate.

She is 24.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD is the bad guy in all of this not the BF, so how is throwing him out until he can himself together for a minute a destructive situation?

He can get himself together now.

Letting stay in your house is enabling him to choose not to get himself together.

That's how it's destructive.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
The saving of money was for both things, her wedding and a down payment on a house. And she did not live together on her own, she lived with her BF and all of her friends live with their BFs or are married so I don't where she will find a room mate.

She is 24.

It doesn't matter if you don't know where she will find a room mate. She needs to solve that problem on her own. She's 24!

Maybe she can live with her new boyfriend.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by markos
But they are not doing it on their own - they are doing it on your dime.

Doesn't that drive you nuts?

I might have missed it, but did you answer this?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:15 PM
This all just took place less than a week ago, he thought everything was fine and she followed him to bed and said she was not happy and wanted to break up with him.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:17 PM
I guess I'm lost - what is the problem here, for you? You wanted this daughter and her boyfriend to live together in your home without being married, and that's what you've got.

Now she's got a new boyfriend.

None of this seems to bother you, so I'd just leave it alone. Or am I misreading?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by markos
But they are not doing it on their own - they are doing it on your dime.

Doesn't that drive you nuts?

I might have missed it, but did you answer this?

I don't feel they were doing it on my dime and it doesn't, I would let my kids live with me forever. Not their BFs but my kids......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
They took out the loan for the car TOGETHER and it is in both of their names as is everything else they have, their phone bill, the dog (they bought him). The BF has paid more for the car than my DD but he wants her to have the car not him and they only have 2 more payments.

If they took it out together, and paid for it together, and pay it off together, then it belongs to both of them equally. Since they are splitting up, that means one would have to buy the other one out from the car, or they would have to sell the car and split the money. Right?

DD getting the car is just another example of enabling her poor behavior, although this time her bf is enabling her. He needs to get a backbone here, and you need to encourage him to do so.

I tried that too but he will not take the car from her
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD is the bad guy in all of this not the BF

How was she bad, here? What was wrong with her letting boyfriend and you pay for her expenses while she looked around for a better deal?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by markos
But they are not doing it on their own - they are doing it on your dime.

Doesn't that drive you nuts?

I might have missed it, but did you answer this?

I don't feel they were doing it on my dime and it doesn't, I would let my kids live with me forever. Not their BFs but my kids......

Then you are part of the problem. Your kids will never grow up.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:20 PM
The BEST thing you can do for your daughter is to get her out of your house so that she can grow up.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as sad as this is raven you are correct about my DD but could you throw out your own kid?

Yes

x2

What is YOUR reason for keeping her there and enabling her poor behavior? You said the only reason you let them move in was because you [mistakenly] thought it would help them move toward marriage. Obviously, that did not pan out and that reasoning is no longer valid. So what is your reason now? The real reason, not all this stuff about how they work full time and pay their bills and you do not support them financially, yet somehow they can't afford to move out on their own think

I do not ever want my DD to live on her own, she has seizures during her sleep and has since she was 12, so she will not ever be alone at night either it scares her.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:23 PM
As our daughter neared adulthood, we discussed with her on many occasions the conditions under which she could continue to live at home:

1.) If she was going to a nearby college, she could live with us. We wouldn't expect rent, but we would expect her to be in school and working parttime to pay for her car insurance and little things. She also had to apply for scholarships.

2.) If she wasn't going to college but was working fulltime, she had to pay us rent. Now she didn't know that our plan was to set aside the rent money into a savings account for her future use, should she decide to attend college at a later date. If she lived under our roof, we expected her to continue to conform to a few rules that made living with another adult agreeable to us. For example, she couldn't bring boyfriends home to sleep overnight. She couldn't bring boyfriends home to sleep...period! She had to either be home at a reasonable hour or call us, because, after all, we still worried about her when she was home late.

She had her "issues" with us and certainly wasn't happy about some of our conditions, but it was our home and we figured that an adult living with parents is a privilege not a right. In the end, she lived at home while she attended school fulltime and worked fulltime and became engaged to a very nice young man. They married without having lived together first.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
like I said she is my DD and I love her more than life and would not let others talk about her but she is very very very selfish and does not think of others in most anything she does.
It is strange to me because I am not that way and neither of our other two children are that way but this one is and I am not sure if anything is going to bring her out of that.

One reason she is very very selfish is because she is surrounded by people who enable her to be.

I can tell you one thing that is not going to bring her out of that, continuing to enable her.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD is the bad guy in all of this not the BF

How was she bad, here? What was wrong with her letting boyfriend and you pay for her expenses while she looked around for a better deal?

Once again I do not pay for her expenses but the boyfriend did.....
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:26 PM
S_C, she is 24 yrs old...not 14. I am not going to keep posting since it seems like you want to continue to make up excuses for DD. I know too many parents who do what you are doing (good intentions gone awry) and their kids are on their way to Loserville or are already losers...thanks in part to their parents enabling. My own parents were guilty of this with my younger brother until they finally kicked him out. Today, he looks back and is grateful my parents tossed him out.

DD is also displaying the traits of a thoughtless wayward. Ex-BF is lucky she broke up with him if he was too weak to do it himself. She can say she feels bad for ex-BF, but she doesn't feel bad enough to be decent and give him the car. She is lazy and selfish. Why you would have wanted her to marry ex-BF or anyone else is lost on me given her attitude. She would be a horrible wife.

Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:27 PM
And you love this bf and want them to stay together because he is the only person who will 'put up with her' which is another way of saying, you want them to stay together because he enables her and accepts her poor treatment. That is sad.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:32 PM
I agree with Black Raven, not really sure what you are looking for here?

Everyone knows you have the right intentions, but we are trying to point out to you how your very complaints and the reasons you have come here are happening in part because of YOUR contribution to the problem. You seem unwilling at this time to look in the mirror.

You can't fix your DD or her relationship, but you can stop enabling her behavior that you do not agree with, and can encourage her BF to do the same. You seem to be dead set against doing so though.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by LongWayFromHome
As our daughter neared adulthood, we discussed with her on many occasions the conditions under which she could continue to live at home:

1.) If she was going to a nearby college, she could live with us. We wouldn't expect rent, but we would expect her to be in school and working parttime to pay for her car insurance and little things. She also had to apply for scholarships.

2.) If she wasn't going to college but was working fulltime, she had to pay us rent. Now she didn't know that our plan was to set aside the rent money into a savings account for her future use, should she decide to attend college at a later date. If she lived under our roof, we expected her to continue to conform to a few rules that made living with another adult agreeable to us. For example, she couldn't bring boyfriends home to sleep overnight. She couldn't bring boyfriends home to sleep...period! She had to either be home at a reasonable hour or call us, because, after all, we still worried about her when she was home late.

She had her "issues" with us and certainly wasn't happy about some of our conditions, but it was our home and we figured that an adult living with parents is a privilege not a right. In the end, she lived at home while she attended school fulltime and worked fulltime and became engaged to a very nice young man. They married without having lived together first.

This too was my conditions for my children as they neared adulthood.

What my DD did however was to not go to school and work fulltime (then) and to call me to let me know she would not be home so I did not worry and then she met her BF and they dated and she was not allowed to have him spend the night at my house and after a little while they got an apartment together and then they moved from the apartment to a double and they have lived together for three years, then in April of this year when their lease was up is when I let them move in with me, I have not charged them rent just part of the utilities and groceries so I have no savings for her.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
S_C, she is 24 yrs old...not 14. I am not going to keep posting since it seems like you want to continue to make up excuses for DD. I know too many parents who do what you are doing (good intentions gone awry) and their kids are on their way to Loserville or are already losers...thanks in part to their parents enabling. My own parents were guilty of this with my younger brother until they finally kicked him out. Today, he looks back and is grateful my parents tossed him out.

DD is also displaying the traits of a thoughtless wayward. Ex-BF is lucky she broke up with him if he was too weak to do it himself. She can say she feels bad for ex-BF, but she doesn't feel bad enough to be decent and give him the car. She is lazy and selfish. Why you would have wanted her to marry ex-BF or anyone else is lost on me given her attitude. She would be a horrible wife.

Yes she would be a horrible wife and maybe that is what I cannot take, that my own DD is such a horrible person
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I agree with Black Raven, not really sure what you are looking for here?

Everyone knows you have the right intentions, but we are trying to point out to you how your very complaints and the reasons you have come here are happening in part because of YOUR contribution to the problem. You seem unwilling at this time to look in the mirror.

You can't fix your DD or her relationship, but you can stop enabling her behavior that you do not agree with, and can encourage her BF to do the same. You seem to be dead set against doing so though.

I am not saying that it is not in part my fault, I know that I have enabled her and I also do not know how to let her grow up other than kicking her out and I can't do that.

I can make the BF leave but that does nothing for my selfish DD except enable her even more.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD is the bad guy in all of this not the BF

How was she bad, here? What was wrong with her letting boyfriend and you pay for her expenses while she looked around for a better deal?

Once again I do not pay for her expenses but the boyfriend did.....

How is that bad?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
like I said she is my DD and I love her more than life and would not let others talk about her but she is very very very selfish and does not think of others in most anything she does.
It is strange to me because I am not that way and neither of our other two children are that way but this one is and I am not sure if anything is going to bring her out of that.

One reason she is very very selfish is because she is surrounded by people who enable her to be.

I can tell you one thing that is not going to bring her out of that, continuing to enable her.

As far as that goes most people just let her be mean to them and do not say anything to her, I am one of the only ones that will tell her when she is being selfish.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DD is the bad guy in all of this not the BF

How was she bad, here? What was wrong with her letting boyfriend and you pay for her expenses while she looked around for a better deal?

Once again I do not pay for her expenses but the boyfriend did.....

How is that bad?

What is bad is not giving the BF his fair share......
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
How was she bad, here? What was wrong with her letting boyfriend and you pay for her expenses while she looked around for a better deal?

Once again I do not pay for her expenses but the boyfriend did.....

How is that bad?

What is bad is not giving the BF his fair share......

He seemed quite happy with the arrangement. He entered it willingly and enthusiastically. What's the problem?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:50 PM
I know what you are saying Markos but once again like I said it just makes me see even more what a selfish person my DD is and it is just sad sad sad.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I know what you are saying Markos but once again like I said it just makes me see even more what a selfish person my DD is and it is just sad sad sad.

I don't guess I understand what you are saying. What is wrong with the choices your daughter made? How does it affect you negatively?
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
like I said she is my DD and I love her more than life and would not let others talk about her but she is very very very selfish and does not think of others in most anything she does.
It is strange to me because I am not that way and neither of our other two children are that way but this one is and I am not sure if anything is going to bring her out of that.

One reason she is very very selfish is because she is surrounded by people who enable her to be.

I can tell you one thing that is not going to bring her out of that, continuing to enable her.

As far as that goes most people just let her be mean to them and do not say anything to her, I am one of the only ones that will tell her when she is being selfish.

I have a 13 year old daughter, who can act a bit selfish as is probably common for 13 yr old daughters. An example of an exchange between us is 'can you take me to (friends) house?' 'no I'm sorry I am busy doing (chore)' [ensuing minor teenage outburst] 'that's so rude I cannot believe you are saying no, I never get to see my friends, you never let me have any fun.....' 'darling don't you think you are being selfish here?'

The end to that example is that she probably right now does NOT see how that is selfish, but likewise I do NOT stop my chore and bring her to her friends and give in to her selfish behavior. I just carry on and let her be angry, and let her feel like she is missing out, and realize that giving in to her might make her happy NOW but in the long run it is sending the wrong message.

Around here words mean nothing, actions are what carry weight. Telling her she is selfish while enabling her selfish behavior is not going to make an impact.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I can make the BF leave but that does nothing for my selfish DD except enable her even more.

I disagree with this. Right now she has so much cake around her she has NO consequences to her behavior. She has you putting a roof over her head, her ex-bf living in her house still and presumably filling her needs since according to you he wants her back, and a new guy on the side! She even has a car to drive that was basically given to her by her bf so she wouldn't suffer the consequences of breaking up with him, while she pursued the new guy.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
How was she bad, here? What was wrong with her letting boyfriend and you pay for her expenses while she looked around for a better deal?

Once again I do not pay for her expenses but the boyfriend did.....

How is that bad?

What is bad is not giving the BF his fair share......

It's not like he married her. He got a month to month arrangement, and now it is over. If he wanted more, he could have told her he wouldn't live with her or do any of this stuff without a legal marriage.

If he wanted more, he should've put a ring on it. If she wanted all this stuff from him, she should've put a ring on it. Maybe he'll learn not to give so much without commitment next time. Or maybe he's perfectly happy and will move on to the next cheap lay whose mother puts him up.

Either way, it's his life lesson to learn - how does any of this affect you?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I know what you are saying Markos but once again like I said it just makes me see even more what a selfish person my DD is and it is just sad sad sad.

I don't guess I understand what you are saying. What is wrong with the choices your daughter made? How does it affect you negatively?

Because she has made horrible choices and as her mother I hate it and it makes me sad even though I know there is nothing I can do about it as they are her choices to make not mine, but it does make me sad that my own daughter cannot see the selfishness herself.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by markos
It's not like he married her. He got a month to month arrangement, and now it is over. If he wanted more, he could have told her he wouldn't live with her or do any of this stuff without a legal marriage.

If he wanted more, he should've put a ring on it. If she wanted all this stuff from him, she should've put a ring on it. Maybe he'll learn not to give so much without commitment next time. Or maybe he's perfectly happy and will move on to the next cheap lay whose mother puts him up.

Either way, it's his life lesson to learn - how does any of this affect you?

While I know that this discussion is about the poor choices my DD has made I really do not appreciate you calling her a cheap lay.

And once again I do not know why you insist that I am taking care of him when that is not true.

How it affects me is that I hate what my DD has done to this guy, it bothers me and is causing me anxiety.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I can make the BF leave but that does nothing for my selfish DD except enable her even more.

I disagree with this. Right now she has so much cake around her she has NO consequences to her behavior. She has you putting a roof over her head, her ex-bf living in her house still and presumably filling her needs since according to you he wants her back, and a new guy on the side! She even has a car to drive that was basically given to her by her bf so she wouldn't suffer the consequences of breaking up with him, while she pursued the new guy.

Maybe you are correct, I still feel really bad for the BF however and like I said to think that my DD did this is beyond me.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I have a 13 year old daughter, who can act a bit selfish as is probably common for 13 yr old daughters. An example of an exchange between us is 'can you take me to (friends) house?' 'no I'm sorry I am busy doing (chore)' [ensuing minor teenage outburst] 'that's so rude I cannot believe you are saying no, I never get to see my friends, you never let me have any fun.....' 'darling don't you think you are being selfish here?'

The end to that example is that she probably right now does NOT see how that is selfish, but likewise I do NOT stop my chore and bring her to her friends and give in to her selfish behavior. I just carry on and let her be angry, and let her feel like she is missing out, and realize that giving in to her might make her happy NOW but in the long run it is sending the wrong message.

Around here words mean nothing, actions are what carry weight. Telling her she is selfish while enabling her selfish behavior is not going to make an impact.

All of my children did things like that and I did not drop what I was doing to take them anywhere. They also hated it because unless they had a fever or were puking I made them go to school, they would always say "so and so's mom let's them stay home" to which I would reply "well I am not so and so's mom am I"

They also did not get their license until they were 18 because they had to pay for drivers ed if they wanted them and they chose not, they never got cell phones until they had a job and got them for themselves.

While I know that I am enabling her selfishness now, I did not teach her to be selfish and both of my other children are so opposite of her that it sometimes seems like she is not my child lol
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:41 PM
I agree that children can have diff personalities and one can be more naturally self centered than the others. But that makes it even more important not to enable selfish behavior in someone who tends to let their taker run the show.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 07:58 PM
I guess I have to go home and tell the BF he has to go, I just still feel horrible for him.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 08:02 PM
And my DD, I just hope she realizes before she enters into another relationship.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 08:31 PM
Just what I knew all along, my eldest DD just called me to tell me the DD we have been discussing posted something on one of her social networking things about being sad, so the eldest DD called her and the DD we have been discussing said the OS friend told her he would no longer be coming over to the house for some reason and she was crying and told my eldest daughter that if she would have known that she would not have broke up with her BF.

That makes me so angry at her.....
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 08:48 PM
She's not going to grow up and act mature until you stop enabling her.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 08:57 PM
Why would the new bf not want to hang out at home with the old bf? Strange. think
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 09:04 PM
Although this behavior is a bit selfish yes, it is true that they are not married, so you're DD does have every right to play the field. I wouldn't be too hard on her for that, just her less that straightforward methods. But I do hope you ingest some of what has been said about enabling. Perhaps since new bf is not working out she will go back to old bf, maybe not. Either way you can see that your method of supporting them has led them further from marriage and a life of 'buying' instead of closer.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Why would the new bf not want to hang out at home with the old bf? Strange. think

This made me laugh but the new BF is not a new BF my DD was infatuated with him, I do not think he ever thought of her as a GF it is just my DD. I do not know his reasoning for no longer coming over but he is friends with the old BF too not just my DD.

And I do see that I am hurting THEM not helping THEM. And I really hope the old BF sites not go back with her
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/27/14 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Although this behavior is a bit selfish yes, it is true that they are not married, so you're DD does have every right to play the field. I wouldn't be too hard on her for that, just her less that straightforward methods. But I do hope you ingest some of what has been said about enabling. Perhaps since new bf is not working out she will go back to old bf, maybe not. Either way you can see that your method of supporting them has led them further from marriage and a life of 'buying' instead of closer.

And that is what I am upset with her about, I can't blame her if she no longer wishes to be with this BF if that is what she wants, it is the selfishness and just the WAY she did it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 12:33 AM
Ok so I told the BF he had until the middle of next month to get a vehicle and another place.

I tried to talk to my DD to let her know the BF is using the majority of their savings to have a down payment on a car and a deposit on a place to live but she is too upset about the OS friend no longer coming over that she has been in her room most of the night she did not even come down for dinner.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I understand what you are saying Melody but regardless of my beliefs I can't push them on my children,

That doesn't mean you have to enable your own children in your own home. Being an enabler is not a good example of parenting. You allowed your own daughter to be treated as an unpaid wh*re right under your own roof in a destructive relationship. You condoned it.

You didn't have to allow your daughter to shack up like a hoe in your own house. All it did was wreck her relationship and wreck her life.

Parents are supposed to use their influence to persuade their children to make SOUND decisions.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
if I let them live with me long enough to save toward their marriage and house

How much does it cost to get married? A license is less than $50, right? crazy

How many years have they lived with you, and they still don't have $50 to their name?

My DD wanted a big wedding with all the everything and me and her dad don't have the money for anything so they will be doing it on their own. I am not trying to make excuses for them I am just telling you what has happened.

You are just making excuses for your own enabling behavior.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 01:11 AM
Quote
I tried to talk to my DD to let her know the BF is using the majority of their savings to have a down payment on a car and a deposit on a place to live but she is too upset about the OS friend no longer coming over that she has been in her room most of the night she did not even come down for dinner.
Did I read somewhere that she's 24?
It's time for her to stop acting like a highschooler. She's a woman now, and it's time to grow up. By 24, I was already married, making payments on my own home, and had 2 kids.
She's still acting like she's in highschool. You've allowed her to get away with that.

Kick the little birdie out of the nest and tell it to fly!
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Ok so I told the BF he had until the middle of next month to get a vehicle and another place.

Great job!!! How long did you give your daughter until?
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I tried to talk to my DD to let her know the BF is using the majority of their savings to have a down payment on a car and a deposit on a place to live

What in the world are you lecturing her for? crazy How long are you giving her to get out?

Quit trying to make her feel the way you think she should feel. Just let her know how long she has until the locks are changed.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 01:34 AM
You can't teach your daughter empathy by telling her how other people feel, so don't lecture her. All you will do is teach her not to listen to you.

Are you under the impression that if you just say the right magic words to her she won't have to leave???

How long did you give her to get out and take responsibility for herself?
Posted By: AverageGuy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:52 AM
Wow. I know how much we want to help our kids, but sometimes it is best for them if they get to try to fly or fail on their own.

Especially on the marriage front, where it is exceedingly difficult for a parent to help her own kid in a relationship that the parent does not fully understand.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I tried to talk to my DD to let her know the BF is using the majority of their savings to have a down payment on a car and a deposit on a place to live but she is too upset about the OS friend no longer coming over that she has been in her room most of the night she did not even come down for dinner.
Did I read somewhere that she's 24?
It's time for her to stop acting like a highschooler. She's a woman now, and it's time to grow up. By 24, I was already married, making payments on my own home, and had 2 kids.
She's still acting like she's in highschool. You've allowed her to get away with that.

Kick the little birdie out of the nest and tell it to fly!

As was I except I only had 1 child. Have any of you heard that this generation stays home longer than our generation?

I can tell you just off the top of my head of 10 of my children's friends who still live at home, most of them with their BF/GF and 2 with a baby as well.

Kids live at home longer these days so I have no intention of throwing my DD out of my house, my eldest DD lives with us too so I guess their dad and I are big enablers when it comes to that.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I understand what you are saying Melody but regardless of my beliefs I can't push them on my children,

That doesn't mean you have to enable your own children in your own home. Being an enabler is not a good example of parenting. You allowed your own daughter to be treated as an unpaid wh*re right under your own roof in a destructive relationship. You condoned it.

You didn't have to allow your daughter to shack up like a hoe in your own house. All it did was wreck her relationship and wreck her life.

Parents are supposed to use their influence to persuade their children to make SOUND decisions.

My DD was shacking up before she moved into my home and I do not consider her a hoe or a cheap wh*re. And I told her many times that she should be married before she even has sex with someone but that does not change that FACTS.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I tried to talk to my DD to let her know the BF is using the majority of their savings to have a down payment on a car and a deposit on a place to live

What in the world are you lecturing her for? crazy How long are you giving her to get out?

Quit trying to make her feel the way you think she should feel. Just let her know how long she has until the locks are changed.

I was not lecturing her, I was simply telling her that the BF needs to go and the only way that can happen is to take the majority of the savings so she would know that it will be gone. And as I told your wife, I have no intention of making my DD leave my home.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by markos
You can't teach your daughter empathy by telling her how other people feel, so don't lecture her. All you will do is teach her not to listen to you.

Are you under the impression that if you just say the right magic words to her she won't have to leave???

How long did you give her to get out and take responsibility for herself?

Once again I was not trying to teach her anything just inform her what was going to happen with her and the BFs savings.

And she does not have to get out.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by AverageGuy
Wow. I know how much we want to help our kids, but sometimes it is best for them if they get to try to fly or fail on their own.

Especially on the marriage front, where it is exceedingly difficult for a parent to help her own kid in a relationship that the parent does not fully understand.

I guess I am not sure what you mean by this, I was not trying to help her relationship other than trying to help her have her "wedding" that she wanted and help THEM get a house.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 12:06 PM
And my DS who is my youngest is married and buying a house.
Posted By: catwhit Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 01:59 PM
Dr Harley had an interesting discussion on today's radio program; he talked about parents teaching their children to be thoughtful, which will serve them well in life.

You can hear the program until 1 pm CST today (Tuesday.)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, S_C.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by catwhit
Dr Harley had an interesting discussion on today's radio program; he talked about parents teaching their children to be thoughtful, which will serve them well in life.

You can hear the program until 1 pm CST today (Tuesday.)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, S_C.

Unfortunately I am at work and am not allowed to listen to anything, it would be blocked from access, I am surprised MB is not blocked from my access.

However all of my children are grown, I think it is already past the "teaching" time in their lives. This is something she will have to figure out on her own. Even though lots of people have told her (me, her dad, her siblings, her BF, her friends) that her actions are not nice and are selfish she doesn't think they are and until she sees it there is not a whole lot I can do about it.

It still does not change the fact that it gives me great anxiety and pain that she is the way she is.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 02:17 PM
Her selfishness is her manipulation tool to get what she wants.

As long as that tool continues to work by being enabled to not have to grow up and act responsibly and maturely, she will continue to utilize it until it stops working.

LTL
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Her selfishness is her manipulation tool to get what she wants.

As long as that tool continues to work by being enabled to not have to grow up and act responsibly and maturely, she will continue to utilize it until it stops working.

LTL

Her selfishness does not work on me however because "I" do not let her use it to her advantage. And my other children are not selfish and one of them lives with me and their dad too.

I guess I do not understand how me letting her live at home is enabling her selfishness, she would be selfish whether she lived at home or not, it is her nature. I just dislike her nature and wish there was something I could do to not let it bother me so bad or make her not be that way and me get so angry with her when she is.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 02:33 PM
You just have a justification or make excuses for her, on and on. I get it. No matter what, she is your daughter.

But, how mature and responsible is she becoming this way?

And, if you dislike her nature and it bothers you so much, would it bother you less if she wasn't in your face every day?

How much does her attitude bother you? Is it enough to do something about it?

If not, then just accept it and don't letther character flaws eat away at you. You only have direct control of your reactions.

LTL

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 02:44 PM
I guess none of you will make me see that letting her live at my home enables her selfishness.

She pays her own bills, she buys her own groceries, she pays her own insurance, she pays part of our utilities, she does her own laundry, we take turns cooking dinner and doing the dishes. The only thing she is not paying is rent so I do not understand how that is enabling selfishness.

And as far as how bad it bothers me, it bothers me a lot, I do not like that she is that way just because I don't think anyone should be that way and I did not teach her to be that way so I hate that she is and I tell her every time she does something selfish but it does not make her stop, she will do it again the next time she wants what she wants.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 03:16 PM
The reason I say that is because my eldest DD who also lives at my home is quite the opposite, she gives almost to a fault, almost to where she has nothing.

I remember when they were younger and in a girl scout troop, when they sold all of their cookies and was deciding what to do with the money, my eldest DD wanted to give it to the less fortunate. The rest of the troop did not lol.

That is why I say that I do not feel allowing her to live at my home enables her selfishness because it is the same situation with my other DD and she is not selfish.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I tried to talk to my DD to let her know the BF is using the majority of their savings to have a down payment on a car and a deposit on a place to live but she is too upset about the OS friend no longer coming over that she has been in her room most of the night she did not even come down for dinner.
Did I read somewhere that she's 24?
It's time for her to stop acting like a highschooler. She's a woman now, and it's time to grow up. By 24, I was already married, making payments on my own home, and had 2 kids.
She's still acting like she's in highschool. You've allowed her to get away with that.

Kick the little birdie out of the nest and tell it to fly!

As was I except I only had 1 child. Have any of you heard that this generation stays home longer than our generation?

That is a choice YOU make, not a choice SHE makes.

Have you ever read Pepperband's excellent post "locus of control"? Do you have an internal locus of control, or an external locus of control? (Hint: you want to have an internal locus of control)

Locus of control

You are in control of the decisions you make; not your daughter. You are in control of yourself, or at least you very well should be.

YOU decided to let her stay home longer - you don't have to do that!

This generation also has really piss poor marriages with astronomical infidelity and divorce rates. This generation also shacks up like whores.

If everybody jumped off of a bridge, would you want your child to jump, too?
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I say that I do not feel allowing her to live at my home enables her selfishness because it is the same situation with my other DD and she is not selfish.

I stayed with my dad till I was 20 and with my grandparents till I was 23. It worked out great for me. For my stepbrother, however, he absolutely needed to be out on his own. When he stayed late with his mother it enabled him to be selfish and lazy - she was actually having to wake him up to go to work every morning at age 22!

Just because it works for one child does not mean it is a good idea for your other child. OBVIOUSLY it is not working for her. OBVIOUSLY. You can see this for yourself - don't try to talk yourself out of it.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:04 PM
Quote
Have any of you heard that this generation stays home longer than our generation?
You and I are not the same generation. I am closer to your daughter's age.

Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I say that I do not feel allowing her to live at my home enables her selfishness

You say that because you are hoping against hope that it is true, even though you can see for yourself that it is not. You say that because you are desperately trying to give yourself an excuse to not do what you know has to be done.

You're going to ruin that girl.

Plan A hasn't worked - you MUST move on to Plan B. I don't mean Marriage Builders Plan B - I mean "plan let her stay at home" hasn't worked: she's as selfish as all get out. You must move onto a different plan if you want anything to change.

This is a silly cliche, but it's also true: THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AGAIN AND EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESULTS.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Have any of you heard that this generation stays home longer than our generation?
You and I are not the same generation. I am closer to your daughter's age.

More and more people are abandoning a culture that works for a culture that doesn't.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And as far as how bad it bothers me, it bothers me a lot, I do not like that she is that way just because I don't think anyone should be that way and I did not teach her to be that way so I hate that she is and I tell her every time she does something selfish but it does not make her stop, she will do it again the next time she wants what she wants.

She will do it again, even though you don't like it.

And you will tell her again, even though telling her doesn't make her stop.

She will then do it again.

And you will tell her again.

All she'll ever get out of that is bad memories of her mother lecturing her.

And nothing will change, because you won't change anything.

OR

You can change the thing that everybody knows needs to be changed here!!!!
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She pays her own bills, she buys her own groceries, she pays her own insurance, she pays part of our utilities, she does her own laundry, we take turns cooking dinner and doing the dishes. The only thing she is not paying is rent so I do not understand how that is enabling selfishness.

How much money is she saving each month?

When does she expect to be able to afford her own place? What is her plan?

I wouldn't see not paying rent as such a bad thing if there's an actual plan and some saving going on, but my suspicion is there's nothing like that going on - my guess is that all of her money gets spent immediately on her own immediate gratification. She'll never learn to have a long-horizon time preference as long as you facilitate her living that way.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by catwhit
Dr Harley had an interesting discussion on today's radio program; he talked about parents teaching their children to be thoughtful, which will serve them well in life.

You can hear the program until 1 pm CST today (Tuesday.)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, S_C.

Unfortunately I am at work and am not allowed to listen to anything, it would be blocked from access, I am surprised MB is not blocked from my access.

Install the app and you can listen from your phone or your car.

This is too good a resource to pass up. If one method of listening doesn't work for you, find another.

Nothing is ever going to change or get better as long as its all excuses.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
It still does not change the fact that it gives me great anxiety and pain that she is the way she is.

That is the number one reason why she needs to be out of your house. It is having a terrible effect on YOU.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:23 PM
Quote
I guess I do not understand how me letting her live at home is enabling her selfishness, she would be selfish whether she lived at home or not, it is her nature.
Having to live on her own will go a long way toward helping her with her selfishness. And, even if it doesn't, you won't have to be faced with it on a regular basis.

Most children are inherently selfish, some more than others. By staying home, she can continue to act and think like a selfish child.

You are not being kind to her by letting her stay home rent free. She will not grow up as long as she lives with you.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
The reason I say that is because my eldest DD who also lives at my home is quite the opposite, she gives almost to a fault, almost to where she has nothing.

Dr. Harley encourages people not to let their Giver or their Taker have free reign.

The Giver is a source of ideas that benefit other people but do not necessarily benefit you, and may hurt you terribly.

The Taker is a source of ideas that benefit you but do not necessarily benefit others, and may hurt them terribly.

You are not your Giver or your Taker. You are your "ego," your rationality. Dr. Harley encourages people to let their ego filter out the ideas suggested by the Giver and the Taker - eliminate the ideas that are not beneficial to you, and eliminate the ideas that are not beneficial to others. You will be left with plenty of ideas, and if you select from only those, you will end up much happier in life.

Right now you are not filtering your Giver's ideas. Your Giver is suggesting that you let this daughter stay home no matter how it makes you feel, but it's making you feel terrible.

Eventually if the Giver is allowed free reign, the Taker usually wakes up and demands to be allowed to control for awhile. People who have strong Givers usually have strong Takers as well. Dr. Harley recommends you have a strong "ego" instead, that is firmly in control and does not yield control to either Giver or Taker, but uses both of them as a source of possible ideas.

You and both of your daughters sound like you are strong Giver and Taker people, with weak control from the ego. That's usually a recipe for unhappiness, in the long term.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 05:55 PM
SC, are you still married? What does your husband think about the living arrangements with your adult children (and their bfs)?

It sounds like your DD living with you is a source of contention, and I am wondering if it is also a source of contention in your own marriage?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by markos
How much money is she saving each month?

When does she expect to be able to afford her own place? What is her plan?

I wouldn't see not paying rent as such a bad thing if there's an actual plan and some saving going on, but my suspicion is there's nothing like that going on - my guess is that all of her money gets spent immediately on her own immediate gratification. She'll never learn to have a long-horizon time preference as long as you facilitate her living that way.

Well currently in the 7 months her and the BF have been at my house they have saved $2,500 most of which the BF is going to take to get a car and a place to live (you have to pay deposit, first and last month's rent so he will need a total of 3 month's worth of rent and a down payment for a vehicle) and her long term goal up until last week was to get married and buy a house with her long term BF and they hoped to be out of my house in 1 year so that would have been 5 more months.

I am not exactly positive what her long term goal is now that she is not with her BF and we have not discussed it as of yet since all of this just occured.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
SC, are you still married? What does your husband think about the living arrangements with your adult children (and their bfs)?

It sounds like your DD living with you is a source of contention, and I am wondering if it is also a source of contention in your own marriage?

Yes I am still married and have been married to the same man for 29 years, and he does not mind our children being there either, he and the DD we discuss but heads because they are exactly the same, my H is selfish too however not nearly as bad as my DD.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
It still does not change the fact that it gives me great anxiety and pain that she is the way she is.

That is the number one reason why she needs to be out of your house. It is having a terrible effect on YOU.

In the three years she did not live with me it caused me great anxiety and pain as well, I do not like that my DD is that way PERIOD no matter where she is living.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
The reason I say that is because my eldest DD who also lives at my home is quite the opposite, she gives almost to a fault, almost to where she has nothing.

Dr. Harley encourages people not to let their Giver or their Taker have free reign.

The Giver is a source of ideas that benefit other people but do not necessarily benefit you, and may hurt you terribly.

The Taker is a source of ideas that benefit you but do not necessarily benefit others, and may hurt them terribly.

You are not your Giver or your Taker. You are your "ego," your rationality. Dr. Harley encourages people to let their ego filter out the ideas suggested by the Giver and the Taker - eliminate the ideas that are not beneficial to you, and eliminate the ideas that are not beneficial to others. You will be left with plenty of ideas, and if you select from only those, you will end up much happier in life.

Right now you are not filtering your Giver's ideas. Your Giver is suggesting that you let this daughter stay home no matter how it makes you feel, but it's making you feel terrible.

Eventually if the Giver is allowed free reign, the Taker usually wakes up and demands to be allowed to control for awhile. People who have strong Givers usually have strong Takers as well. Dr. Harley recommends you have a strong "ego" instead, that is firmly in control and does not yield control to either Giver or Taker, but uses both of them as a source of possible ideas.

You and both of your daughters sound like you are strong Giver and Taker people, with weak control from the ego. That's usually a recipe for unhappiness, in the long term.

Yes I am a giver to the nth degree but it makes me feel happy to give I am not much of a taker at all but because I am such a giver I am usually rewarded in many ways.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I guess I do not understand how me letting her live at home is enabling her selfishness, she would be selfish whether she lived at home or not, it is her nature.
Having to live on her own will go a long way toward helping her with her selfishness. And, even if it doesn't, you won't have to be faced with it on a regular basis.

Most children are inherently selfish, some more than others. By staying home, she can continue to act and think like a selfish child.

You are not being kind to her by letting her stay home rent free. She will not grow up as long as she lives with you.

She didn't live at home for three years and struggled to pay her bills and have groceries and find ways to work like all of the rest of us yet she is still selfish and was selfish then too
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by catwhit
Dr Harley had an interesting discussion on today's radio program; he talked about parents teaching their children to be thoughtful, which will serve them well in life.

You can hear the program until 1 pm CST today (Tuesday.)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, S_C.

Unfortunately I am at work and am not allowed to listen to anything, it would be blocked from access, I am surprised MB is not blocked from my access.

Install the app and you can listen from your phone or your car.

This is too good a resource to pass up. If one method of listening doesn't work for you, find another.

Nothing is ever going to change or get better as long as its all excuses.

Can't do that either, we are not allowed head phones or to have anything playing out loud. The only time I can listen is before and after work and in my car but I would not have beeen able to listen to the show the poster was talking about because I would be at work.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is why I say that I do not feel allowing her to live at my home enables her selfishness

You say that because you are hoping against hope that it is true, even though you can see for yourself that it is not. You say that because you are desperately trying to give yourself an excuse to not do what you know has to be done.

You're going to ruin that girl.

Plan A hasn't worked - you MUST move on to Plan B. I don't mean Marriage Builders Plan B - I mean "plan let her stay at home" hasn't worked: she's as selfish as all get out. You must move onto a different plan if you want anything to change.

This is a silly cliche, but it's also true: THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AGAIN AND EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESULTS.

I just do not think it matters towards her selfishness, she has not lived at home before and it did not change her selfishness and when she is at my house there are certain things "I" won't let her be selfish about.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
SC, are you still married? What does your husband think about the living arrangements with your adult children (and their bfs)?

It sounds like your DD living with you is a source of contention, and I am wondering if it is also a source of contention in your own marriage?

And my H also wants the BF to stay until he can get a vehicle and stuff because of the way my DD handle all of this. He is upset with me for making him leave
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:33 PM
Well this is 14 pages of watching a merry go round. I can't even remember what the original question was.

My prediction is that now that new guy is not interested in DD she will reunite with old bf, and all will go back to 'normal.'

As I said before, I hope a little bit of what has been said regarding you enabling destructive behavior, like living together before marriage, is planted as a seed in your head moving forward. It is not your job after all to live your daughters life, it is your job to advise to her and role model the behavior that YOU feel is appropriate. Such as, 'I don't agree with living together before marriage, you can do that since you are a full grown adult woman, but I don't agree and you are not going to do it in my house.'
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
The reason I say that is because my eldest DD who also lives at my home is quite the opposite, she gives almost to a fault, almost to where she has nothing.

Dr. Harley encourages people not to let their Giver or their Taker have free reign.

The Giver is a source of ideas that benefit other people but do not necessarily benefit you, and may hurt you terribly.

The Taker is a source of ideas that benefit you but do not necessarily benefit others, and may hurt them terribly.

You are not your Giver or your Taker. You are your "ego," your rationality. Dr. Harley encourages people to let their ego filter out the ideas suggested by the Giver and the Taker - eliminate the ideas that are not beneficial to you, and eliminate the ideas that are not beneficial to others. You will be left with plenty of ideas, and if you select from only those, you will end up much happier in life.

Right now you are not filtering your Giver's ideas. Your Giver is suggesting that you let this daughter stay home no matter how it makes you feel, but it's making you feel terrible.

Eventually if the Giver is allowed free reign, the Taker usually wakes up and demands to be allowed to control for awhile. People who have strong Givers usually have strong Takers as well. Dr. Harley recommends you have a strong "ego" instead, that is firmly in control and does not yield control to either Giver or Taker, but uses both of them as a source of possible ideas.

You and both of your daughters sound like you are strong Giver and Taker people, with weak control from the ego. That's usually a recipe for unhappiness, in the long term.

Yes I am a giver to the nth degree but it makes me feel happy to give I am not much of a taker at all but because I am such a giver I am usually rewarded in many ways.

You totally missed the point of what I was saying. I hope you'll read it again, because it is very important.

People are not Givers or Takers.

Being a strong Giver is not a good recipe.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by catwhit
Dr Harley had an interesting discussion on today's radio program; he talked about parents teaching their children to be thoughtful, which will serve them well in life.

You can hear the program until 1 pm CST today (Tuesday.)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, S_C.

Unfortunately I am at work and am not allowed to listen to anything, it would be blocked from access, I am surprised MB is not blocked from my access.

Install the app and you can listen from your phone or your car.

This is too good a resource to pass up. If one method of listening doesn't work for you, find another.

Nothing is ever going to change or get better as long as its all excuses.

Can't do that either, we are not allowed head phones or to have anything playing out loud. The only time I can listen is before and after work and in my car but I would not have beeen able to listen to the show the poster was talking about because I would be at work.

Each day's radio show plays continuously until the next day's show. So you can listen at any time convenient to you, not just for the hour it's playing live.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Well this is 14 pages of watching a merry go round. I can't even remember what the original question was.

My prediction is that now that new guy is not interested in DD she will reunite with old bf, and all will go back to 'normal.'

As I said before, I hope a little bit of what has been said regarding you enabling destructive behavior, like living together before marriage, is planted as a seed in your head moving forward. It is not your job after all to live your daughters life, it is your job to advise to her and role model the behavior that YOU feel is appropriate. Such as, 'I don't agree with living together before marriage, you can do that since you are a full grown adult woman, but I don't agree and you are not going to do it in my house.'

This was funny too, the original question was how to tell my DD that this OS friend was not good for a committed relationship.

And obviously I was correct but she would not have listened anyway. And I will no longer let her live with a BF under my roof but she can by herself.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Each day's radio show plays continuously until the next day's show. So you can listen at any time convenient to you, not just for the hour it's playing live.

I was not aware of that thanks
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by catwhit
Dr Harley had an interesting discussion on today's radio program; he talked about parents teaching their children to be thoughtful, which will serve them well in life.

You can hear the program until 1 pm CST today (Tuesday.)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, S_C.

Unfortunately I am at work and am not allowed to listen to anything, it would be blocked from access, I am surprised MB is not blocked from my access.

Install the app and you can listen from your phone or your car.

This is too good a resource to pass up. If one method of listening doesn't work for you, find another.

Nothing is ever going to change or get better as long as its all excuses.

Can't do that either, we are not allowed head phones or to have anything playing out loud. The only time I can listen is before and after work and in my car but I would not have beeen able to listen to the show the poster was talking about because I would be at work.

Why couldn't you have listened to it afterward? They repeat it every hour for 24 hours.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You totally missed the point of what I was saying. I hope you'll read it again, because it is very important.

People are not Givers or Takers.

Being a strong Giver is not a good recipe.

I didn't miss the point markos, I know that I am all giver and very little taker, I have always been that way and I have survived for 50 years being that way and I happen to like it. And my taker usually does not get out of wack because I do so much for so many people that they always do for me too even my selfish DD. So I do not need to have my taker be big it does not suit me well.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 08:05 PM
OMG my eldest DD called again and the OS friend is now going to start coming back over again so my DD is all giddy again.

How will I ever be able to accept this guy if they start dating because even though she was not married to the BF it seemed that way and this just seems like an affair to me UGH.......
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
You totally missed the point of what I was saying. I hope you'll read it again, because it is very important.

People are not Givers or Takers.

Being a strong Giver is not a good recipe.

I didn't miss the point markos, I know that I am all giver and very little taker

If you believe that to be true, then you are not understanding what I am saying.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 09:32 PM
Ok I am a good person, I always think of others first and how anything I do would affect them. I have taken in stray people (not strangers) who needed help for a minute, I make dinner with others in mind, I am open for most things so I usually do what the group wants to do, I am not rude to people, I am a good listener, I ask others opinions, I really do not do anything that is just for SC.

So if this is what you are trying to say then yes I am pretty much giver and not much taker, but doing those things feeds my taker because it is what makes me happy and people do things for me in return even though I don't expect or ask for it and I LOVE it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 10:05 PM
And before any of you ask back when my FWH had his affair and I was here everyone asked me to think of something just for SC, that was almost 8 years ago now (wow I can't believe it has been that long) and I have racked my brain trying to even think of something I would want to do just for SC and I still have not come up with anything.

I am happiest as a giver.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And before any of you ask back when my FWH had his affair and I was here everyone asked me to think of something just for SC, that was almost 8 years ago now (wow I can't believe it has been that long) and I have racked my brain trying to even think of something I would want to do just for SC and I still have not come up with anything.

I am happiest as a giver.

Not good at all!
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:39 PM
If I can't even think of something then in my eyes it is not bad but I am not talking about me I am talking about my DD.

Ugh ugh ugh I just really hate the way she did all of this and it gives me a knot in the pit of my stomach and I feel like the worst mother in the world for being so upset with her.

I guess just because I do believe in marriage and I TRULY thought they would get married. I have called him my son-in-law for a couple of years now. And like I said I almost feel like my DD is having an EA .
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/28/14 11:43 PM
In my book, letting an unmarried daughter stay at your house with her live in boyfriend is the opposite of believing in marriage. You know that couples who live together before marriage usually have unsuccessful marriages, right?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 12:10 AM
You do know the statistics on marriage in general is pretty bad unfortunately.

That doesn't make me believe in it any less.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:43 AM
Quote
And like I said I almost feel like my DD is having an EA
She's not. Nowhere close to it. And it would be extraordinarily disrespectful for you to even imply that she is.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:45 AM
Quote
You do know the statistics on marriage in general is pretty bad unfortunately.
A big part of the reason for that is couples living together before marriage.

Couples who live together before marriage tend to be renters, not buyers. It is no surprise that their marriages fail.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
You do know the statistics on marriage in general is pretty bad unfortunately.

You do know that living together before marriage dramatically increases the likelihood of divorce? Shacking up dooms relationships and that is what you endorsed with your daughter. Why would you want that for your own daughter?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:08 AM
She was already living with him regardless of my feelings.

And kind of not by my own choice but because my mother refused to let me date my H then BF we lived together before we got married and we have been married for almost 30 years.

Marriage is hard and requires work and most people are not willing to put in the work even though the rewards are awesome.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
And like I said I almost feel like my DD is having an EA
She's not. Nowhere close to it. And it would be extraordinarily disrespectful for you to even imply that she is.

However that is how I feel and I don't like that I feel that way but I do none the less.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:15 AM
My H then BF is 6 years older than me and I was 19 and still lives at home and because she was my mother and I lived in her house she did not want me to date him because he was too old and experienced for more so I was forbidden to see him. So we decided to move in together so we could still see each other. We were married a little more than a year later.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:17 AM
Wow. You would equate your SINGLE daughter to a WW? She is immature and selfish, but she is NOT an adulteress! She is free to date or STOP dating who ever she wants, whenever she wants.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She was already living with him regardless of my feelings.

And kind of not by my own choice but because my mother refused to let me date my H then BF we lived together before we got married and we have been married for almost 30 years.

Marriage is hard and requires work and most people are not willing to put in the work even though the rewards are awesome.

None of this changes the fact that the majority of people who live together before marriage are renters, and have a higher chance of unhappy marriages and divorce.

There are smokers that can smoke a pack a day and live well into their 90s. It doesn't change the fact that for most people, it is generally a very bad idea.

None of this changes the fact that by letting them shack up in your home, you condoned and help pay for their renter lifestyle (the very renter lifestyle that caused your daughter to find someone new).
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:23 AM
Unfortunately yes I do and why all of this makes me crazy because I don't want to feel that way but I considered them married and I am finding it hard to talk to my DD right now and we have never had that problem
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:26 AM
Quote
but I considered them married
But they weren't. So stop.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:27 AM
What you considered them is irrelevant. They were not married. It is not an affair, of any kind. She has met a new guy who she is more attracted to, and has decided to end her relationship with old guy. Until she is married she is free to date whoever she wants to.

Sometimes our plans for our children do not pan out exactly how we thought they would.

Open your mind to learn how to be a better role model in teaching your DD's the 'buyer' mentality. That is really the only thing you can do.





Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She was already living with him regardless of my feelings.

And kind of not by my own choice but because my mother refused to let me date my H then BF we lived together before we got married and we have been married for almost 30 years.

Marriage is hard and requires work and most people are not willing to put in the work even though the rewards are awesome.

None of this changes the fact that the majority of people who live together before marriage are renters, and have a higher chance of unhappy marriages and divorce.

There are smokers that can smoke a pack a day and live well into their 90s. It doesn't change the fact that for most people, it is generally a very bad idea.

None of this changes the fact that by letting them shack up in your home, you condoned and help pay for their renter lifestyle (the very renter lifestyle that caused your daughter to find someone new).

I think we determined quite a few pages ago that I made an error in judgement for allowing it in my home but none of that change the fact that she was already living with the BF for three years before they moved in here
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:34 AM
My point: By letting them shack up in your home, you encouraged the renter relationship. As a renter, it is no surprise that your daughter moved on and found someone new. It was just a matter of time.

So stop being so upset with her. Start being upset with yourself. YOU encouraged this.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:38 AM
Why do you keep bringing it back to the fact that she was already living with him?
That is also irrelevant. It is not a reason or excuse for why YOU chose to let them live together in your own house. If you are accepting your error in judgement, then own it and don't try to give it a reason for being understandable. It is not understandable, it was just the wrong decision. Move on and don't make it again.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:39 AM
They were already living together for three years
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:43 AM
And you condoned it. You encouraged this.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:44 AM
As far as your husband is concerned, I just want to throw this out there.

When I was in high school and college I also had a serious bf. His grandparents were friends with my grandparents, his parents friends with my parents. My senior year I asked if he could spend the night. My mother said NO WAY IN HXXL, but my dad was strangely OK with it. He loved this bf and thought it would be cool to chat at the breakfast table I guess.

Now as an adult with my own daughter, thinking back to his response makes me feel very uncared for by him. It is a father's job to look out for his daughter, and I do not feel he was looking out for me. I hope your husband knows the message this sends to his daughter, that he is willing to allow this. It says very blatantly that he doesn't care about her as a beautiful and cherished young lady. She may not see that message now, but some day she will.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She was already living with him regardless of my feelings. Marriage is hard and requires work and most people are not willing to put in the work even though the rewards are awesome.

That is a poor excuse for enabling your own daughter.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Why do you keep bringing it back to the fact that she was already living with him?
That is also irrelevant. It is not a reason or excuse for why YOU chose to let them live together in your own house. If you are accepting your error in judgement, then own it and don't try to give it a reason for being understandable. It is not understandable, it was just the wrong decision. Move on and don't make it again.

I have already owned up to that fact and will not make the same decision the next time, what I am saying is that even if they were not living with me they would be living together some where and this probably would have happened there too if it was going to happen and I would not have had anything to do with her renter behaviour I would still feel the same way.

That she is having an EA and if it goes any where with this new guy it will be hard for me to accept. A different guy would be fine but this guy I would always consider her.OM.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:49 AM
Merry go round music. I'm getting very dizzy. I need to get off the ride, sorry.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:52 AM
"Owning up" to a mistake is not demonstrated by concocting ridiculous excuses for your enabling.

If your child was shooting up heroin for 3 years, would you use that as an excuse to let her shoot up heroin in your own home? Would you say "she was going to do it anyway?" That is just an excuse for poor parenting.

And your daughter is not married so it is ridiculous to say she is having an "EA."
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:52 AM
If you are going to be upset with anybody, it should be yourself for actively encouraging a lifestyle that would lead to this. Not your daughter. Yourself.

It is really high and mighty of you to sit there and look down your nose at her and call her a WW when you are the one that encouraged and condoned this lifestyle!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:53 AM
I guess we should be grateful your DD is not a serial killer with all the parental justifications and enabling we have seen here.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:54 AM
Quote
That she is having an EA and if it goes any where with this new guy it will be hard for me to accept. A different guy would be fine but this guy I would always consider her.OM.
That is pretty low, and an insult to any man on here who has discovered his wife in an affair.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That she is having an EA and if it goes any where with this new guy it will be hard for me to accept. A different guy would be fine but this guy I would always consider her.OM.

Well, she's not having an affair, but we have a solution for a situation where a parent is devastated by a child's affair: cut off contact.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:59 AM
We do not want our children to live together we would prefer they were married, we are not however going to disown them or not speak to them if thatis the choice they make.

We did not condone her moving in with the BF but she moved in with the BF so if we wanted a relationship with our DD we had no choice but to accept it.

I then made a poor choice to allow them to live under my roof but it happened and can't be changed.

My issue is how horrible I feel for being so upset with my DD for having what I consider in my own head an EA.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:05 AM
You condoned her living with him by allowing her to do so in your home. You encouraged the renter relationship, and in so doing, you encouraged a relationship that was doomed to fail.

Stop acting like she's a wayward and start being upset with yourself for condoning this lifestyle. It is hypocritical to be upset with her when you encouraged her to live that way by allowing her to do so under your own roof. You have no standing to be upset with her.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That she is having an EA and if it goes any where with this new guy it will be hard for me to accept. A different guy would be fine but this guy I would always consider her.OM.

Well, she's not having an affair, but we have a solution for a situation where a parent is devastated by a child's affair: cut off contact.

I know that she is not but my heart doesn't and I don't like it. I have not told her that.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:06 AM
Quote
My issue is how horrible I feel for being so upset with my DD for having what I consider in my own head an EA.
Your daughter is not a wayward. It is not an EA, and repeating yourself is not going to make it so.

Stop considering it an EA. It's not.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That she is having an EA and if it goes any where with this new guy it will be hard for me to accept. A different guy would be fine but this guy I would always consider her.OM.

Well, she's not having an affair, but we have a solution for a situation where a parent is devastated by a child's affair: cut off contact.

I know that she is not but my heart doesn't and I don't like it. I have not told her that.

Stop telling her that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
We do not want our children to live together we would prefer they were married, we are not however going to disown them or not speak to them if thatis the choice they make.

No one suggested you disown your daughter. We only suggested you were in the wrong for enabling her to behave like an unpaid wh*re in your house. You are supposed to be the parent here, after all.

Quote
We did not condone her moving in with the BF but she moved in with the BF so if we wanted a relationship with our DD we had no choice but to accept it.

Yes you did condone it. You allowed her to shack up under your own roof.

Quote
I then made a poor choice to allow them to live under my roof but it happened and can't be changed.

Then why not leave it at that instead of making up ridiculous excuses for enabling your own daughter? Making all these excuses just makes you look like you are in denial and don't get it.

Quote
My issue is how horrible I feel for being so upset with my DD for having what I consider in my own head an EA.

It is not an "EA" though, so you can stop considering it. If I "consider" that I am the Queen of England, it does not mean it is true. It just means I am in denial of reality.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
[

I know that she is not but my heart doesn't and I don't like it. I have not told her that.

He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But he who walks wisely will be delivered. Proverbs 28:26



Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That she is having an EA and if it goes any where with this new guy it will be hard for me to accept. A different guy would be fine but this guy I would always consider her.OM.

Well, she's not having an affair, but we have a solution for a situation where a parent is devastated by a child's affair: cut off contact.

I know that she is not but my heart doesn't and I don't like it. I have not told her that.

Stop telling her that.

I said I have NOT told her that, I would not do that and I know what you all are saying about her not being married I just cannot wrap my head around all of this and I will miss her relationship with this BF and it was just so crappy
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:15 AM
So, don't wrap your head around it.
Drop it. Move on.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:25 AM
]

We did not condone it three years ago when they moved in together.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Prisca
So, don't wrap your head around it.
Drop it. Move on.

Right now I am having a problem with that and the entire reason I started this thread to begin with.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
]

We did not condone it three years ago when they moved in together.

Yes you did. If you allow someone to do something in your home, you are condoning it by your actions.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:36 AM
She moved in with him 3 years ago and we did not want her to do I think that means we did not condone it at the time.

Then like I said 7 months ago I made a wrong decision and allowed it then so I did condone it 7 months ago but not 3 years ago when it originally happened.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She moved in with him 3 years ago and we did not want her to do I think that means we did not condone it at the time.

You condoned it by your actions when you allowed them to shack up under your own roof.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:44 AM
Yes 7 months ago not 3 years ago
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Yes 7 months ago not 3 years ago

YES. You condoned it by your own actions.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She moved in with him 3 years ago and we did not want her to do I think that means we did not condone it at the time.

Then like I said 7 months ago I made a wrong decision and allowed it then so I did condone it 7 months ago but not 3 years ago when it originally happened.

Stop splitting hairs.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:07 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
So, don't wrap your head around it.
Drop it. Move on.

Right now I am having a problem with that and the entire reason I started this thread to begin with.

And the answer to your problem is to stop doing it.
Stop thinking about it. Stop trying to wrap your head around it. Stop.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 10:02 AM
OMG I am not splitting hairs, I know I made a mistake by letting them live here and just because you say stop doesn't mean I can right at this moment.

It BOTHERS me regardless of it being my fault. Is it not allowed to bother me that my DD is acting in a way that I do not like?

Yes I know that it shouldn't but it does not change the fact that it does and I don't like it.

I still cannot talk to my daughter the way I did before she broke up with the BF. And if she dates this OS friend it will be hard for me to accept him even if it is wrong.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 12:28 PM
Man I have so much stuff going on at work and then this has made me feel so sad and like such a horrible mother that last week I started having panic attacks and had to go get medicine from my doctor.

So I have aready felt like a horrible mother and all of you pounding into my head that I am indeed a horrible mother and then last night my DS came to visit and told me that the BF and him had plans to go get an engagement ring for the BF to propose and so this morning I feel even worse.

I hope I can just let it go soon........

And I hope she doesn't keep making the same mistakes and come to regret this decision.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:22 PM
Let me see if I have gotten all of this straight:

You permitted your daughter with a long term live-in boyfriend to move into your home. Your daughter has since broken off with this BF and is starting a relationship with someone else. You considered her effectively married and thus justified your own action of allowing them to live under your roof. The fact that she is moving on to another guy is causing you to experience dissonance. It feels like an affair to you.

There are a couple of really obvious observations:

You do not understand your daughter. You assumed things about her that were most likely never true. She was never as committed to this guy as you thought. While her past fornication is wrong and you encouraged that by your actions, she is not presently doing anything wrong by moving on to another guy.

You need to address the real facts. Your attempts to spin things is making everybody dizzy, including yourself. Accept that you made a mistake and try to learn from your error. And, stop projecting yourself and your motivations onto your children. It isn't serving you well to do that.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:27 PM
He and my DS were going to go next weekend (the BF works most weekends and my DS works during the week but the BF had a weekend day off next week) and he was going to put the down payment on the ring and as soon as he paid it off then propose I guess at least he saved his money.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by mrEureka
Let me see if I have gotten all of this straight:

You permitted your daughter with a long term live-in boyfriend to move into your home. Your daughter has since broken off with this BF and is starting a relationship with someone else. You considered her effectively married and thus justified your own action of allowing them to live under your roof. The fact that she is moving on to another guy is causing you to experience dissonance. It feels like an affair to you.

There are a couple of really obvious observations:

You do not understand your daughter. You assumed things about her that were most likely never true. She was never as committed to this guy as you thought. While her past fornication is wrong and you encouraged that by your actions, she is not presently doing anything wrong by moving on to another guy.

You need to address the real facts. Your attempts to spin things is making everybody dizzy, including yourself. Accept that you made a mistake and try to learn from your error. And, stop projecting yourself and your motivations onto your children. It isn't serving you well to do that.

Mostly true only she is not starting a relationship with this other guy because he is not interested in her that way.

I have not said ANYTHING to my daughter about this I told her I want her to be happy, it just is causing me grief and obviously because I made a mistake it is causing me even more grief because I am mad at myself and have been mad at myself the whole time
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:36 PM
I will also say that I obviously do not know my DD as well as I thought I did too but they both told me all along they were going to get married so I did ASSUME (which you know what happens when you do that) that they were true.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:53 PM
Ever read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders?
If not, read it.
If so, read it again.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Man I have so much stuff going on at work and then this has made me feel so sad and like such a horrible mother that last week I started having panic attacks and had to go get medicine from my doctor.

So I have aready felt like a horrible mother and all of you pounding into my head that I am indeed a horrible mother and then last night my DS came to visit and told me that the BF and him had plans to go get an engagement ring for the BF to propose and so this morning I feel even worse.

I hope I can just let it go soon........

And I hope she doesn't keep making the same mistakes and come to regret this decision.

Calling your daughter wayward when she is not IS pretty bad.
The solution is not to feel sorry for yourself, or to try to make us feel sorry for you. The solution is to stop.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:01 PM
I am feeling sorry for myself I am not trying to make anyone else feel sorry for me. I got myself into this predicament not anyone else, but I still feel horrible and it causes me anxiety just saying it doesn't make it stop. I am sure eventually I will get over it but right now I am upset.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Calling your daughter wayward when she is not IS pretty bad.
The solution is not to feel sorry for yourself, or to try to make us feel sorry for you. The solution is to stop.

I never called her that to her face I just have those feelings even if they are wrong and I am upset with her about it, I have not shown her that in any way except I am not having as long of conversations with her because it bothers me what she done.

I also worry that she will keep making the same mistakes over and over if she really had no intention this time around (even if it is my fault) and I do not want that for her, I do want her to be happy but I am afraid her selfishness will not allow for that to happen.

I think everyone wants good things for their kids I just did not go about it the correct way on this one.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I also worry that she will keep making the same mistakes over and over if she really had no intention this time around (even if it is my fault) and I do not want that for her, I do want her to be happy but I am afraid her selfishness will not allow for that to happen.
She is not making a mistake by not marrying this guy. She is not in love and not ready for marriage. She lived with someone and *told* you she was serious so you would go along with it. She understands you better than you understand her. Expect further manipulation. It works for her.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:47 PM
Yes she did sucker me for sure.

I just think that regardless she will live with someone again so that is what I mean by making the same mistakes over and over.

And I am mourning their relationship as I do so love the now ex-BF.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 02:50 PM
Quote
I never called her that to her face
Doesn't matter. It's still pretty bad.

And the solution is the same: Stop.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 03:59 PM
Quote
just saying it doesn't make it stop.
You can take actions to make it stop, though.
You can stop dwelling.
You do not need to dwell on any thought that comes to your mind.
Move on. Think about something else. Stop telling yourself that you feel she is wayward. You know it's wrong. Stop thinking about it. Find something else to do and think about.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Ever read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders?
If not, read it.
If so, read it again.

Please answer this.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:04 PM
Have you managed to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, yet? Have you recommended the show to your daughter?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Prisca
Ever read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders?
If not, read it.
If so, read it again.

Please answer this.

I have not
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Prisca
Ever read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders?
If not, read it.
If so, read it again.

Please answer this.

I have not

Will you?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Have you managed to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, yet? Have you recommended the show to your daughter?

I downloaded the app yesterday and listened on my way home from work. And thank you again for letting me know about that.

My DD is only interested in finding reasons to spend time with her OS friend so she was not interested in talking last night and was gone most of the evening.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:02 PM
And some of the guys she dated before the ex BF were real winners too. And I just think because of her selfish ways she will want to live together first to make sure that is what she "wants".
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Prisca
Ever read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders?
If not, read it.
If so, read it again.

Please answer this.

I have not

Will you?

I will look for it this weekend, we are going away for the weekend and I should have plenty of relaxation time to read it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
just saying it doesn't make it stop.
You can take actions to make it stop, though.
You can stop dwelling.
You do not need to dwell on any thought that comes to your mind.
Move on. Think about something else. Stop telling yourself that you feel she is wayward. You know it's wrong. Stop thinking about it. Find something else to do and think about.

I know you are right and I have been trying but right now that is the only thing on my mind (besides the job issues) and even if I didn't think she is wayward I am still mourning the loss of their relationship for myself too.

He was not my BF or anything but 5 years of seeing a person practically every day (because I went to visit them all the time) I will miss him and THEM and I know it is for the best and I am trying to remind myself of that every time I think about it
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Have you managed to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, yet? Have you recommended the show to your daughter?

I downloaded the app yesterday and listened on my way home from work. And thank you again for letting me know about that.

Great!! I'm glad to hear that! And I hope you listen again today, and tomorrow, and the next day. smile

Quote
My DD is only interested in finding reasons to spend time with her OS friend so she was not interested in talking last night and was gone most of the evening.

You might mention it to her in a note or email or text that she can read (or not read) at her leisure. That might make it non-threatening. You wouldn't even need a response; just a chance to pass along the information that it is there, and then she decides what to do with it.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Please answer this.

I have not

Will you?

I will look for it this weekend, we are going away for the weekend and I should have plenty of relaxation time to read it.

You can get the ebook edition from Amazon to read on a PC, tablet, or phone, if that makes it easier for you.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You can get the ebook edition from Amazon to read on a PC, tablet, or phone, if that makes it easier for you.

I do have a Kindle that I use alot.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by markos
You might mention it to her in a note or email or text that she can read (or not read) at her leisure. That might make it non-threatening. You wouldn't even need a response; just a chance to pass along the information that it is there, and then she decides what to do with it.

Not quite sure how to just sneak in a conversation about Marriage Builders without it seeming threatening to her, she already said the day she told me she was going to break up that she knows we will hate her for breaking up with her BF so I am kind of walking on eggshells with her right now because I do not want to say anything to her but I will think on it
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
You might mention it to her in a note or email or text that she can read (or not read) at her leisure. That might make it non-threatening. You wouldn't even need a response; just a chance to pass along the information that it is there, and then she decides what to do with it.

Not quite sure how to just sneak in a conversation about Marriage Builders without it seeming threatening to her, she already said the day she told me she was going to break up that she knows we will hate her for breaking up with her BF so I am kind of walking on eggshells with her right now because I do not want to say anything to her but I will think on it

I would avoid telling her she was wrong - that'll sure be threatening! Affirm to her that it is her choice to make, and that a commitment for life should not be made with someone you are not in love with, and that it's better to back out sooner (before marriage) rather than later (afterward). Then just tell her you've heard of this radio show / app, and this book (Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders). Then, be done with it - let her decide what to do from there.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
You might mention it to her in a note or email or text that she can read (or not read) at her leisure. That might make it non-threatening. You wouldn't even need a response; just a chance to pass along the information that it is there, and then she decides what to do with it.

Not quite sure how to just sneak in a conversation about Marriage Builders without it seeming threatening to her

If you just write a note or email and don't ever ask her for a response, that's probably about the best you can do to make it non-threatening.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by markos
I would avoid telling her she was wrong - that'll sure be threatening! Affirm to her that it is her choice to make, and that a commitment for life should not be made with someone you are not in love with, and that it's better to back out sooner (before marriage) rather than later (afterward). Then just tell her you've heard of this radio show / app, and this book (Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders). Then, be done with it - let her decide what to do from there.

I definitely did not tell her she was wrong and if she wanted to see other people then that was her choice and she went about it the correct way by breaking up with the BF first.

She knows that I was on MB back when my H had the affair but for right now maybe I will just leave the book lying around or open on the Kindle and see what happens from there. I am afraid if I talk to her too much about it I will start crying.

I cannot even hardly look at the ex BF without crying.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am afraid if I talk to her too much about it I will start crying.

That's another great reason to communicate with a note! When she's reading it, you're not even there, so no crying.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 07:19 PM
I am still not sure she will be happy about because I am sure she will think I am trying to get her back with the ex BF I am not sure if it is too soon for her not to be suspicious of anything I try to say to her about relationships.

But maybe while I am away this weekend I will text her about it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 07:24 PM
She knows how much we loved the ex BF and how much we wanted her to get married so she doesn't really want to hear anything about relationships right now.

She just wants to spend all of her time with this OS friend who supposedly has a GF too but she obviously doesn't care about that either, it is just so obvious when he is at our house how infatuated with him she is.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 07:25 PM
Sorry I am getting fired up again, I can't even talk about it, I am crying right now.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 10/29/14 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am still not sure she will be happy about

Well, of course she might not be happy about it - I didn't imagine she would. I'd pass on the recommendations (book and radio show), and then truly let it drop. The rest of it is her business to handle her way.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 03:33 PM
Well I did not have as much free as I expected to have this past weekend but I at least started the book. I left a message for my DD about MB but so far nothing. She is far too into herself to do anything right now, she doesn�t even go get her dog his �special� food since she has been hanging out with this other guy, and he has been eating my dog�s food which was never �good� enough before.

I have decided though that I really hope the BF moves on to someone new, my DD does not even deserve him. He is such a good guy and sad to say my DD is not such a good person at all.

Her selfishness it utterly amazing to me, she is still asking the ex BF to do things for her and then getting upset with him when he doesn�t and still hanging out with the other guy practically every day. I have been staying out of it but I want to tell her so badly that she can�t have it both ways.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 03:34 PM
At least I am feeling better, no more panic attacks and I am not crying when I see the exBF.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 03:37 PM
Oh and she has decided that she does not want to give up most of the savings to him so now he is keeping the car they bought together and she is getting a different one with part of their savings so she gets to spend some of the money too (according to her "after all that is only fair we both saved it we both should get to spend it").
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been staying out of it but I want to tell her so badly that she can�t have it both ways.

She can have it both ways, she DOES have it both ways. exBF still living there and complying to her, plus new bf/love interest on the side. Mom feeding the dog because she is too busy to buy him dog food.

She has absolutely no incentive to grow up. None.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been staying out of it but I want to tell her so badly that she can�t have it both ways.

She can have it both ways, she DOES have it both ways. exBF still living there and complying to her, plus new bf/love interest on the side. Mom feeding the dog because she is too busy to buy him dog food.

She has absolutely no incentive to grow up. None.
So when is DD or XBF moving out?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been staying out of it but I want to tell her so badly that she can�t have it both ways.

She can have it both ways, she DOES have it both ways. exBF still living there and complying to her, plus new bf/love interest on the side. Mom feeding the dog because she is too busy to buy him dog food.

She has absolutely no incentive to grow up. None.

Technically I am not feeding the dog she is still feeding him and I am making her give me money for my dog food, it is the fact that she does not go get his "special" food anymore because then she would not be able to spend as much time with the other guy.

I feel bad for the dog, he was her "baby" until the other guy has been around I mean it was ridiculous how she treated her dog (not that I do not spoil mine but he was super spoiled), now she does not show him attention at all but she does not want the exBF to take him either.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been staying out of it but I want to tell her so badly that she can�t have it both ways.

She can have it both ways, she DOES have it both ways. exBF still living there and complying to her, plus new bf/love interest on the side. Mom feeding the dog because she is too busy to buy him dog food.

She has absolutely no incentive to grow up. None.
So when is DD or XBF moving out?

exBF is scheduled to move out the weekend of of November 15-16.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have been staying out of it but I want to tell her so badly that she can�t have it both ways.

She can have it both ways, she DOES have it both ways. exBF still living there and complying to her, plus new bf/love interest on the side. Mom feeding the dog because she is too busy to buy him dog food.

She has absolutely no incentive to grow up. None.

The ex BF is not doing things for her and she is mad about it and she is mad at the new love interest because he is not showing her enough attention.

My eldest DD told me that during a Halloween party they attended she was extremely rude to several people because they were playing cards with her love interest and it made her mad and she said she was going to burn the cards......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 08:46 PM
Is there a book for selfishness that I can suggest to her or buy her and leave it in her room?
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Well I did not have as much free as I expected to have this past weekend but I at least started the book. I left a message for my DD about MB but so far nothing.

That may be it, then, at least until a lot more water goes under the bridge for her. Stay with it for yourself, in the meantime. Are you still listening to the radio show?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 08:56 PM
Yes I am listening not as much as I should but before work and after work in the car, it seems I am so busy when I get home that I do not have much time for anything lol.

With both of my DDs, the one DDs BF, me, my H and we also have a blind, diabetic friend of the family who lives with us that we take care of things are sometimes pretty crazy in the evenings around our house.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/04/14 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Technically I am not feeding the dog she is still feeding him and I am making her give me money for my dog food, it is the fact that she does not go get his "special" food anymore because then she would not be able to spend as much time with the other guy.

I feel bad for the dog, he was her "baby" until the other guy has been around I mean it was ridiculous how she treated her dog (not that I do not spoil mine but he was super spoiled), now she does not show him attention at all but she does not want the exBF to take him either.


Imagine how much time she would have to flirt if she had to buy all her own groceries and do her laundry etc. Even if she does, there are time saving benefits to living at home with many hands making light work.

I'm not going to tell you she shouldn't be living at home etc, because I know my parents house is my home whenever I need it to be. I also know I'd have to earn my keep, and that I'd have to be living a life that was pleasing to my parents while under their roof.

Worth considering then how much circumstances have changed since she moved in and if it still pleases your giver. She moved in under the guise of commitment and saving and the giver in you was happy because you thought you were helping your daughter toward a life you approved of.

Now it's not the same at all and your giver must feel swindled - it must! All the help you have toward that goal and now she is living a life you do NOT want to witness under your roof.

I don't think she did anything wrong other than mistake an inclination to marry in the future for the real deal of marital commitment.

As others have said, she didn't commit adultery. However living together creates an abusive set up where there's no commitment, but expectations nevertheless. It's common for this to degrade character and Dr H describes it in his article on people who are living together.

My guess is her behaviour changed due to the living situation and could change again if her living situation changed.

If she either had to care for herself, or earn her keep in your home, without a live in ex boyfriends help, she would expect a lot more of her next boyfriend and of herself.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/05/14 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Imagine how much time she would have to flirt if she had to buy all her own groceries and do her laundry etc. Even if she does, there are time saving benefits to living at home with many hands making light work.

I'm not going to tell you she shouldn't be living at home etc, because I know my parents house is my home whenever I need it to be. I also know I'd have to earn my keep, and that I'd have to be living a life that was pleasing to my parents while under their roof.

Worth considering then how much circumstances have changed since she moved in and if it still pleases your giver. She moved in under the guise of commitment and saving and the giver in you was happy because you thought you were helping your daughter toward a life you approved of.

Now it's not the same at all and your giver must feel swindled - it must! All the help you have toward that goal and now she is living a life you do NOT want to witness under your roof.

I don't think she did anything wrong other than mistake an inclination to marry in the future for the real deal of marital commitment.

As others have said, she didn't commit adultery. However living together creates an abusive set up where there's no commitment, but expectations nevertheless. It's common for this to degrade character and Dr H describes it in his article on people who are living together.

My guess is her behaviour changed due to the living situation and could change again if her living situation changed.

If she either had to care for herself, or earn her keep in your home, without a live in ex boyfriends help, she would expect a lot more of her next boyfriend and of herself.

Indie I think you hit the nail on the head for sure. I am not sure yet what to do about it. As I have said before I don't think I can make her move out.

I do however have to come up with some way to make it less easy on her for sure. Right now I am not sure what that is going to be but it HAS to be something. And the ex will be gone soon so she will only have one income which will kill her.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/05/14 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Indie I think you hit the nail on the head for sure. I am not sure yet what to do about it. As I have said before I don't think I can make her move out.

I do however have to come up with some way to make it less easy on her for sure. Right now I am not sure what that is going to be but it HAS to be something. And the ex will be gone soon so she will only have one income which will kill her.


Indie has a way of hitting the nail on the head :-)

I have three children of a similar age to yours. I was tempted to let them continue to live with me. As time has gone on I have learned how selfish that feeling was on my part. It is essential for our children not just to move out but to live financially independent lives. My two daughters have both done that. Of course, they can come back in a crisis, they know that.

My son got stuck and it was my fault. He lived in my London flat whilst he attended university. I let him continue to live there with a girlfriend that waited on him hand and foot after he graduated so that he could develop his business. That, of course, was disastrous as the need to put a roof over your head is the greatest incentive to make things happen. I did him no favours and he is now out of there.

Get your older daughter up and out. Nothing like a bit of sibling rivalry to get things moving along :-)
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/05/14 06:03 PM
While I understand what you are saying I would not do that to the eldest DD either. As I said before she is giving almost to a fault.

She has lived on her own most of her adult life but has had very poor choices in BFs. She took care of them rather than them taking care of her. She now has a good BF for probably the first time ever but not that long ago she lost her job (layoff) so when her lease ran out she moved in with us.

She now has another job and is getting back on her feet and I am sure she is ready to get back to get own place soon anyway. Her and I work different shifts so I really only see her on weekends.

And unfortunately I doubt it will change the selfish DD one bit, I think once the exBF is gone she will have a rude awakening.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/06/14 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She now has another job and is getting back on her feet and I am sure she is ready to get back to get own place soon anyway. Her and I work different shifts so I really only see her on weekends.


Providing housing for temporary respite is terrific but it can also be terribly destructive. I have found that one year is the magic number. If you help for longer than that, the help becomes a lifestyle and damages the person you are helping.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/06/14 02:09 PM
Neither of them have been there for one year yet, the selfish DD has been there for 7 months and the eldest DD has been there for 8 months.

I think the eldest wants to wait until after the holidays since they are now upon us already and she will be leaving.

As I said before since the selfish DD plans have now changed I am not positive when she is leaving now. We still have not sat down to have a heart to heart about her new plans as we have been focusing on getting the exBF out.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/06/14 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Neither of them have been there for one year yet, the selfish DD has been there for 7 months and the eldest DD has been there for 8 months.

I think the eldest wants to wait until after the holidays since they are now upon us already and she will be leaving.

As I said before since the selfish DD plans have now changed I am not positive when she is leaving now. We still have not sat down to have a heart to heart about her new plans as we have been focusing on getting the exBF out.


Good so you can tell them both that they max out at 12 months. But only if you and DH have done a POJA and agree that this is the best outcome for you both :-)
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/06/14 03:34 PM
What does your DH say about all of this? Have you POJA with him?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/06/14 06:52 PM
My DH says the same thing I say, he is still upset with me for making the exBF leave because he thinks our DD did him wrong.

As far as when to make them leave it is not something either of us have really discussed. We thought this DD had a plan and our other DD like I said we do not see her so we don't even realize she is there lol. Plus we both know we do not have to worry about that DD, only the selfish one.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/07/14 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DH says the same thing I say, he is still upset with me for making the exBF leave because he thinks our DD did him wrong.

As far as when to make them leave it is not something either of us have really discussed. We thought this DD had a plan and our other DD like I said we do not see her so we don't even realize she is there lol. Plus we both know we do not have to worry about that DD, only the selfish one.
So you don't practice POJA in your marriage?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/07/14 03:56 PM
I am not sure where this even came from. Yes we practice POJA, he is okay LETTING the exBF leave he just is UPSET like I was at our DD.

And we POJA'd the girls moving in but neither of us put a time limit on how long they were staying.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/07/14 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am not sure where this even came from. Yes we practice POJA, he is okay LETTING the exBF leave he just is UPSET like I was at our DD.

It came from here
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DH says the same thing I say, he is still upset with me for making the exBF leave because he thinks our DD did him wrong.

If your DH is upset with you, you did not POJA the issue of exBF's departure. POJA is brilliant and two heads are always better than one :-)
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/07/14 04:21 PM
I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. He is not mad and we agreed to have the exBF leave.

He is however upset at our DD and the first day was extremely MAD and told me to have her move out instead of the exBF.

After we both cooled down we decided that the correct decision was to have the exBF leave.

So we did POJA the whole thing, he is like me however still just upset at our DD for this whole mess.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/08/14 05:43 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. He is not mad and we agreed to have the exBF leave.

He is however upset at our DD and the first day was extremely MAD and told me to have her move out instead of the exBF.

After we both cooled down we decided that the correct decision was to have the exBF leave.

So we did POJA the whole thing, he is like me however still just upset at our DD for this whole mess.
Like LW pointed out from your own words it seemed like you don't POJA, but now you've cleared it up.

I'm still confused why you and your DH allow your adult daughter to live with you when she causes so much pain. Why isn't she be told to leave and live her bad choices on her own?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/08/14 05:40 PM
She is here because we were trying to help her save money, which she did, and had plans to marry. Now she does not have plans to marry however it just occurred less than a month ago.

I am not making excuses for my DD we have allowed her to stay here, since she was in middle school she has been somewhat selfish and as her mother I have tried to get that our of her. I have always told my kids life is not "fair" and things don't always go your way but you have to make the best with what you have.

This DD however still does not get that message and thinks everything should always be get way. Now why I certainly agree with all of you that the easiest and probably even best solution is to just kick her out.

However the mother in me just won't do that. Yet I don't want to make it easy on her either. I really hate that she left this guy but she did and now me and my H have to figure out the best tough love that I can do because I cannot make her leave now. She has to get on her feet after this too.

Even if it is her choice to be in the situation she is now in she still just ended a five year relationship and I think she needs to figure some things out too. I just wish I could somehow steer her somewhere that would help her get rid of somee of her selfishness or else she may end up a lonely person and I do not want that for her.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/08/14 09:04 PM
Have you, at the vert least, given her a date she needs to be out by?
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/09/14 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you, at the vert least, given her a date she needs to be out by?


after POJA ing it with DH of course
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/09/14 12:58 PM
We have not, all we have been doing lately is splitting up all of her and the exBF stuff. He is leaving next weekend.

She had to get a car and he had to find a place we have been going through their stuff in storage and she still has to get her own cell phone plan and a couple of other things that I cannot remember right now.

Me and my DH have discussed it and since she is now basically starting all over again we are not sure "how" much time that should be.

I still want to find some book or something that she may relate to that could help her understand how selfish she is though, because she will never have a good relationship the way she is now.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/09/14 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I still want to find some book or something that she may relate to that could help her understand how selfish she is though, because she will never have a good relationship the way she is now.


Getting her a book is disrespectful on your part because it implies that you are trying to educate her. Different if she asked for a book.

The best way to help her is for you to have a fabulous relationship with her father with no independent behavior.

For example, if she sees you two negotiating all issues respectfully, and she sees how well that works for both of you, she will learn to do that too. Actions are far more powerful than words and your actions as her mother are more powerful than any other.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 02:03 PM
I wish it were that simple.

My DH and I have used POJA pretty much from the beginning of our relationship and both of my other kids seemed to have gotten it and also use it in their relationships but this one did not get it and thinks everything should be her way not just relationship stuff.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My DH and I have used POJA pretty much from the beginning of our relationship and both of my other kids seemed to have gotten it and also use it in their relationships but this one did not get it and thinks everything should be her way not just relationship stuff.


Care to give us a recent example? Sometimes an illustration can get to the bottom of an issue more easily.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 03:32 PM
Quote
I still want to find some book or something that she may relate to that could help her understand how selfish she is though, because she will never have a good relationship the way she is now.
The time for teaching her this is over. This is a lesson you could have taught her as a child, but either didn't or the lesson didn't sink in. Now she is an adult, and must be dealt with as an adult. You cannot educate or train her at this point. The only thing you can do is not enable her.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I still want to find some book or something that she may relate to that could help her understand how selfish she is though, because she will never have a good relationship the way she is now.
The time for teaching her this is over. This is a lesson you could have taught her as a child, but either didn't or the lesson didn't sink in. Now she is an adult, and must be dealt with as an adult. You cannot educate or train her at this point. The only thing you can do is not enable her.


I agree that enabling is poison but disagree about the ability to teach by example an adult child. I have seen my adult (23, 27, 28) children benefit from seeing me in a happy marriage to a wonderful man. I had a dysfunctional relationship with their father and they now see a healthy dynamic at close quarters for the first time.

My middle child, especially, had lots of trust issues and was therefore incredibly gun shy about relationships. We have talked about this a lot. I don't think it is possible to under estimate the influence of a parent, especially the same sex parent. All the books and words in the world are less powerful than seeing one successful POJA.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
We have not, all we have been doing lately is splitting up all of her and the exBF stuff. He is leaving next weekend.

She had to get a car and he had to find a place we have been going through their stuff in storage and she still has to get her own cell phone plan and a couple of other things that I cannot remember right now.

Me and my DH have discussed it and since she is now basically starting all over again we are not sure "how" much time that should be.

I still want to find some book or something that she may relate to that could help her understand how selfish she is though, because she will never have a good relationship the way she is now.
Is there a reason you have to be part of "splitting up" their stuff? Why can't they be responsible for completing it?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 04:46 PM
Quote
I agree that enabling is poison but disagree about the ability to teach by example an adult child.
Where did I say you can't teach by example?? You can "teach by example" ANY adult, not just your own children.

You cannot, however, educate or train your adult child. The time for training is when they are young. An adult child must be treated like an adult, and you must use respect and persuasion if you are to get anywhere with them.

And giving a book is trying to train and educate, not "teaching by example."
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I agree that enabling is poison but disagree about the ability to teach by example an adult child.
Where did I say you can't teach by example?? You can "teach by example" ANY adult, not just your own children.

You cannot, however, educate or train your adult child. The time for training is when they are young. An adult child must be treated like an adult, and you must use respect and persuasion if you are to get anywhere with them.

And giving a book is trying to train and educate, not "teaching by example."


Yes, and after that clarification I can see that we are totally in agreement :-)
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is there a reason you have to be part of "splitting up" their stuff? Why can't they be responsible for completing it?


I have not been involved it is just the fact that the two of them are involved in it and have not been around therefore there has not been any discussion with our DD.

We do not really know what her plans are now so we need to have that discussion with her before we can discuss anything between us.

If she tells us she already has a plan to be out in a certain amount of time then we are good to go and will not have to have a discussion. If she tells us she doesn't really have a plan then all of us need to have a discussion together (me, DD, and DH).
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
The time for teaching her this is over. This is a lesson you could have taught her as a child, but either didn't or the lesson didn't sink in. Now she is an adult, and must be dealt with as an adult. You cannot educate or train her at this point. The only thing you can do is not enable her.

I have said over and over the lesson did not sink in with this child; however I totally disagree about teaching an adult child anything. Until her death I asked my mother stuff all the time and she taught me, my adult kids still ask me stuff all the time and I answer them so I am teaching them.

Right now my DD is upset with me because she knows that I do not like that they broke up and she knows that I know she likes the other guy so right now she will not talk to me at all because she thinks anything I say to her is because I am upset that she broke up with the exBF. She knows me and I know her.

Once the exBF is out for a little while and things settle down I am positive that she will ask my opinion again and I can influence her as an adult (and as someone else pointed out also as her mother, she listens to me more than anyone), I just don�t know where to send her that she can relate to and it will influence her.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 06:34 PM
I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 06:47 PM
Quote
I asked my mother stuff all the time and she taught me
Do you see the difference here?
An adult child ASKING for help is different than a parent taking it upon herself to train her adult child.

There's a very big difference. Most adults buckle at unsolicited advice, especially if it comes from a parent.

Has your daughter asked for your advice on her selfishness? If no, then your time for training her on that has passed.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....

You will never get through to her with such disrespect.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....

You will never get through to her with such disrespect.


x2
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I asked my mother stuff all the time and she taught me
Do you see the difference here?
An adult child ASKING for help is different than a parent taking it upon herself to train her adult child.

There's a very big difference. Most adults buckle at unsolicited advice, especially if it comes from a parent.

Has your daughter asked for your advice on her selfishness? If no, then your time for training her on that has passed.

Certainly not on her selfishness because she does not think she is selfish, but she has asked for my advice on many, many, things and I am sure she will again when it comes to relationships and i would like to have something to tell her that she can relate to that she will see to help her.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....

You will never get through to her with such disrespect.

I have gotten through to her on many other things, you just have to let this one stir on things for a little while and then let her think they were her ideas and then we are fine, that is why I want something that she can relate to.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I asked my mother stuff all the time and she taught me
Do you see the difference here?
An adult child ASKING for help is different than a parent taking it upon herself to train her adult child.

There's a very big difference. Most adults buckle at unsolicited advice, especially if it comes from a parent.

Has your daughter asked for your advice on her selfishness? If no, then your time for training her on that has passed.

Certainly not on her selfishness because she does not think she is selfish, but she has asked for my advice on many, many, things and I am sure she will again when it comes to relationships and i would like to have something to tell her that she can relate to that she will see to help her.

Then your time to train her on selfishness is over.

If you want to help her on relationships, and she asks you for help, then give her Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:44 PM
I have dealt with this DD for 24 years now and she has been difficult practically her whole life, she took ALL the rebel genes from both me and my DH I suppose. I have not had any trouble out of the other two.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....

You will never get through to her with such disrespect.

I have gotten through to her on many other things, you just have to let this one stir on things for a little while and then let her think they were her ideas and then we are fine, that is why I want something that she can relate to.

More disrespect.

You will never really get through to her if you disrespect her. It won't work. People do not respond to disrespect.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have dealt with this DD for 24 years now and she has been difficult practically her whole life, she took ALL the rebel genes from both me and my DH I suppose. I have not had any trouble out of the other two.

What exactly is she rebelling against? You? You are no longer an authority over her.

Calling her a rebel because she does not see things the way you do is disrespectful. Why should she listen to you?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I asked my mother stuff all the time and she taught me
Do you see the difference here?
An adult child ASKING for help is different than a parent taking it upon herself to train her adult child.

There's a very big difference. Most adults buckle at unsolicited advice, especially if it comes from a parent.

Has your daughter asked for your advice on her selfishness? If no, then your time for training her on that has passed.

Certainly not on her selfishness because she does not think she is selfish, but she has asked for my advice on many, many, things and I am sure she will again when it comes to relationships and i would like to have something to tell her that she can relate to that she will see to help her.

Then your time to train her on selfishness is over.

If you want to help her on relationships, and she asks you for help, then give her Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

So far from what I have read in this book she will not relate because she cannot look into herself without someone shoving it in her face.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....

You will never get through to her with such disrespect.

I have gotten through to her on many other things, you just have to let this one stir on things for a little while and then let her think they were her ideas and then we are fine, that is why I want something that she can relate to.

More disrespect.

You will never really get through to her if you disrespect her. It won't work. People do not respond to disrespect.

This person does
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:49 PM
Quote
So far from what I have read in this book she will not relate because she cannot look into herself without someone shoving it in her face.
More disrespect.
With such disrespect, you would do best to leave her be. Maybe if you could figure out how to talk to her (and about her) as an adult instead of a child, you could say something. But right now, you would just be asking for trouble.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:50 PM
Quote
This person does
No, she doesn't.
If she did, you would have no problems with her because you have the disrespect down to an art.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have dealt with this DD for 24 years now and she has been difficult practically her whole life, she took ALL the rebel genes from both me and my DH I suppose. I have not had any trouble out of the other two.

What exactly is she rebelling against? You? You are no longer an authority over her.

Calling her a rebel because she does not see things the way you do is disrespectful. Why should she listen to you?

I call her a rebel because she deosn't see things the way most people do, not just her mother. She is her own person for sure but I have raised her and I know how to deal with her.

She does not care what society thinks in general isn't that a rebel?
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
[quote=Still_Crazy]I do know because we have discussed it many times since my DHs A that she does not like some of the things on MB (such as OS friends) so I know that if I sent her here she would rebel against it (that is what she is a rebel) and it would do no good so I need to find something that she can relate to or else nothing will stick because she is too stubborn and is ALWAYS right just ask her.....

You will never get through to her with such disrespect.

I have gotten through to her on many other things, you just have to let this one stir on things for a little while and then let her think they were her ideas and then we are fine, that is why I want something that she can relate to.

More disrespect.

You will never really get through to her if you disrespect her. It won't work. People do not respond to disrespect.

Still Crazy, it must feel as if we are ganging up on you but we are not. We are seeing things that you cannot see because you are too close to the situation. Give us a recent example of how DD displays her selfishness and we will help walk you though this.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
So far from what I have read in this book she will not relate because she cannot look into herself without someone shoving it in her face.
More disrespect.
With such disrespect, you would do best to leave her be. Maybe if you could figure out how to talk to her (and about her) as an adult instead of a child, you could say something. But right now, you would just be asking for trouble.

It may be disrespect in your eyes but I know my child and I do not consider it disrespect I consider it working with what you have
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have dealt with this DD for 24 years now and she has been difficult practically her whole life, she took ALL the rebel genes from both me and my DH I suppose. I have not had any trouble out of the other two.

What exactly is she rebelling against? You? You are no longer an authority over her.

Calling her a rebel because she does not see things the way you do is disrespectful. Why should she listen to you?

I call her a rebel because she deosn't see things the way most people do, not just her mother. She is her own person for sure but I have raised her and I know how to deal with her.

She does not care what society thinks in general isn't that a rebel?

No. That's a woman who is free to think what she wants to think, regardless of what society thinks. She is not a rebel simply because she believes differently.

You are being disrespectful to her and treating her like a child.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
This person does
No, she doesn't.
If she did, you would have no problems with her because you have the disrespect down to an art.

So I disrespected her when she was 5 because as I said this one has been this way since I can remember.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
You will never really get through to her if you disrespect her. It won't work. People do not respond to disrespect.

This person does

Well you certainly aren't responding when we respectfully tell you that as long as you talk about your daughter this way you'll never make any headway. Should we make our point to you disrespectfully, instead? Will you respond to that, and quit being so disrespectful to and about your daughter, then?

You are the problem - you expect her to respond to disrespect. She doesn't, she never will, and most people won't. Maybe you think you surpass the average person in that regard, but most people just aren't that way.

As long as you keep addressing your daughter's problems disrespectfully, with no regard for her point of view, you will never be any help to her in resolving them. Nothing will ever change unless you change this.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
So far from what I have read in this book she will not relate because she cannot look into herself without someone shoving it in her face.
More disrespect.
With such disrespect, you would do best to leave her be. Maybe if you could figure out how to talk to her (and about her) as an adult instead of a child, you could say something. But right now, you would just be asking for trouble.

It may be disrespect in your eyes but I know my child and I do not consider it disrespect I consider it working with what you have

It doesn't matter if you consider it disrespect. Talking to and about your daughter as if she is a child is disrespect. She has no reason to listen to you.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
This person does
No, she doesn't.
If she did, you would have no problems with her because you have the disrespect down to an art.

So I disrespected her when she was 5 because as I said this one has been this way since I can remember.

Do you not see a difference between a 5 year old child and a 24 year old woman?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I have dealt with this DD for 24 years now and she has been difficult practically her whole life, she took ALL the rebel genes from both me and my DH I suppose. I have not had any trouble out of the other two.

What exactly is she rebelling against? You? You are no longer an authority over her.

Calling her a rebel because she does not see things the way you do is disrespectful. Why should she listen to you?

I call her a rebel because she deosn't see things the way most people do, not just her mother. She is her own person for sure but I have raised her and I know how to deal with her.

She does not care what society thinks in general isn't that a rebel?

No. That's a woman who is free to think what she wants to think, regardless of what society thinks. She is not a rebel simply because she believes differently.

You are being disrespectful to her and treating her like a child.

I really do not care what you say about it I am not disrespecting her. Do you realize she has been fired from jobs for just saying what she thinks, she does not care. She will not take out her piercings or cover her tatoos to get certain jobs where she would make more money, that is stupid not someone being their own woman.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 07:59 PM
We are trying to show you that you can never motivate an adult by treating them like a child.

What you are doing is not working, is it? You are not reaching her.

Maybe you feel that she should respond to disrespect, but she does not and she never will. If you are wanting something to change here, it will have to change with you.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
This person does
No, she doesn't.
If she did, you would have no problems with her because you have the disrespect down to an art.

So I disrespected her when she was 5 because as I said this one has been this way since I can remember.

Do you not see a difference between a 5 year old child and a 24 year old woman?

I do not, I have to treat her the same way that I did when she was 5 to get through to her. Everyone treats her like she is 5 to get through to her.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:01 PM
Quote
I really do not care what you say about it I am not disrespecting her. Do you realize she has been fired from jobs for just saying what she thinks, she does not care. She will not take out her piercings or cover her tatoos to get certain jobs where she would make more money, that is stupid not someone being their own woman.
And you will never reach her by being so disrespectful.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by markos
We are trying to show you that you can never motivate an adult by treating them like a child.

What you are doing is not working, is it? You are not reaching her.

Maybe you feel that she should respond to disrespect, but she does not and she never will. If you are wanting something to change here, it will have to change with you.

I haven't tried to reach her in some time because she did not live under my roof again until 7 months ago. And then had plans to leave, I am trying to teach her for her future, not now and I have not tried talking to her about anything since her and the exBF broke up.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:03 PM
Quote
I do not, I have to treat her the same way that I did when she was 5 to get through to her. Everyone treats her like she is 5 to get through to her.
That's pretty stupid, isn't it? To treat a 24 year old woman like a 5 year old?

If I'm disrespectful to you about that, would you stop seeing it that way?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I really do not care what you say about it I am not disrespecting her. Do you realize she has been fired from jobs for just saying what she thinks, she does not care. She will not take out her piercings or cover her tatoos to get certain jobs where she would make more money, that is stupid not someone being their own woman.
And you will never reach her by being so disrespectful.

That is your opinion.......
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:04 PM
If you cannot see the difference between a 5 year old and a 24 year old, you are not the one who can help her.

You need to leave your daughter alone.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is your opinion.......
Aren't you here to get help, SC?

Are you being receptive to help when you brush it off in this way?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I really do not care what you say about it I am not disrespecting her. Do you realize she has been fired from jobs for just saying what she thinks, she does not care. She will not take out her piercings or cover her tatoos to get certain jobs where she would make more money, that is stupid not someone being their own woman.
And you will never reach her by being so disrespectful.

That is your opinion.......

It is Dr. Harley's opinion. He is the one that taught me that you cannot motivate people with disrespect.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I do not, I have to treat her the same way that I did when she was 5 to get through to her. Everyone treats her like she is 5 to get through to her.
That's pretty stupid, isn't it? To treat a 24 year old woman like a 5 year old?

If I'm disrespectful to you about that, would you stop seeing it that way?

Probably not, I know how to deal with my DD, you would probably not even speak to my DD, a lot of people would not because she speaks her mind too much.

While she is in my house I do not allow her to disrespect me or her father by her little tantrums and the way she talks to her friends and her exBF.

If it were me I would not be her friend, but I am her mother and I love her unconditionally.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I really do not care what you say about it I am not disrespecting her. Do you realize she has been fired from jobs for just saying what she thinks, she does not care. She will not take out her piercings or cover her tatoos to get certain jobs where she would make more money, that is stupid not someone being their own woman.
And you will never reach her by being so disrespectful.

That is your opinion.......

It is Dr. Harley's opinion. He is the one that taught me that you cannot motivate people with disrespect.

He has never dealt with my DD then.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
You will never really get through to her if you disrespect her. It won't work. People do not respond to disrespect.

This person does

Well you certainly aren't responding when we respectfully tell you that as long as you talk about your daughter this way you'll never make any headway. Should we make our point to you disrespectfully, instead? Will you respond to that, and quit being so disrespectful to and about your daughter, then?

You are the problem - you expect her to respond to disrespect. She doesn't, she never will, and most people won't. Maybe you think you surpass the average person in that regard, but most people just aren't that way.

As long as you keep addressing your daughter's problems disrespectfully, with no regard for her point of view, you will never be any help to her in resolving them. Nothing will ever change unless you change this.

You guys seem to think I do not have her point of view in mind but I do, you do not know my DD. I know her point of view on breaking up with the BF, she told me she has feelings for the other guy (which I knew all along anyway) and did not think it was fair to the exBF to stay with him.

She also has been doing things that she has never done before because it is things that the other guy likes. I told her she should not change herself for anyone, if he did not like her for who she is then that was his loss.

Is that disrespectful in any way? She talks to me all the time, she just knows I do not like that her and the exBF did not get married because she knows i did not like them living together.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She also has been doing things that she has never done before because it is things that the other guy likes. I told her she should not change herself for anyone, if he did not like her for who she is then that was his loss.
SC, if she is asking you for advice or even just chatting to you, then this is bad advice to be giving - that is, if you believe that MB offers the means to have successful romantic relationships, which I thought you did, since you are here.

We SHOULD change ourselves to please someone that we want to attract. We should learn not to commit love busters, and to get rid of annoying habits. We should learn to meet their emotional needs - and this is not magic, it is mathematics.

Whether it is training ourselves not to shout, not to swear, to pick up after ourselves, to clean the house effectively, to cook, to ride a horse, to please our spouse sexually...the list is endless...we need to learn pleasing ways of behaving if we want people to want to be with us. We should not do things that we don't enjoy doing, but we can try things at our partner's (I'm including boyfriends here) suggestion, and we can learn to do things that take effort. In His Needs Her Needs, Dr Harley specifically recommends learning about our spouse's interests or academic skill, so that we can take an interest in it and have conversations about it, even if we don't have any interest in it right now. We don't have to keep it up if we don't like it, and we shouldn't pretend to like something that we really don't like - but we can try new things.

Marriage Builders is absolutely NOT about being yourself and refusing to change for anyone - not if you want to be loved.

You've spent a whole thread arguing for days against the basic concepts, and I wonder if you know them, or indeed are even interested in them.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:01 PM
Sugarcane I understand what you are saying and yes we should change our basic concepts but not who we are.

When I mean she is changing for him it is things like she has never in her life watched soccer and her exBF liked soccer but she did not watch it with him, she told him she did not like it and to please turn the channel, she watched one game of soccer with the other guy now every Saturday morning since she watched that game she has watched it again and texted him about it, yet this is something she did not like oh say a month ago.

She used to never wear make-up, he says he likes make-up so she is wearing it all the time now.

If she were changing her habits I would not say a WORD to her and just be thankful and jumping for joy, but it is not her habits that she is changing.

Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
You've spent a whole thread arguing for days against the basic concepts, and I wonder if you know them, or indeed are even interested in them.

x100

This is the longest thread I have ever seen where the poster has not taken ONE piece of advice and implemented it. I think you have argued against every piece of advice.

If you knew anything about Prisca, you know that Markos and her have transformed their own lives with respect to committing disrespectful behavior. I personally specifically asked Prisca to comment on my own thread, because I value her as an expert in this area! Yet you are brushing her off like her advice is meaningless.

You ARE being very disrespectful to your DD. If this is what 'works for her' because you know her so well and for some reason she is different than every other person, then why on earth do you have any issues with her and why are you here asking for help?
Posted By: Alada Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:05 PM
That right there would be me. I hated make up a year ago, no soccer for me either. Now, I actually enjoy wearing make up and I started to watch news about soccer.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by SugarCane
You've spent a whole thread arguing for days against the basic concepts, and I wonder if you know them, or indeed are even interested in them.

x100

This is the longest thread I have ever seen where the poster has not taken ONE piece of advice and implemented it. I think you have argued against every piece of advice.

If you knew anything about Prisca, you know that Markos and her have transformed their own lives with respect to committing disrespectful behavior. I personally specifically asked Prisca to comment on my own thread, because I value her as an expert in this area! Yet you are brushing her off like her advice is meaningless.

You ARE being very disrespectful to your DD. If this is what 'works for her' because you know her so well and for some reason she is different than every other person, then why on earth do you have any issues with her and why are you here asking for help?

Because the only advice I have received is to throw her out and I am not willing to do that period..........
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:09 PM
Everyone just keeps telling me not to enable her, but I will not throw my daughter out, I just will not, even if I think it is the best thing, my mother would never have done that to me and I will never do it to her.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Sugarcane I understand what you are saying and yes we should change our basic concepts but not who we are.
I honestly don't understand the difference, and neither do I understand what is wrong with any of this:

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
When I mean she is changing for him it is things like she has never in her life watched soccer and her exBF liked soccer but she did not watch it with him, she told him she did not like it and to please turn the channel, she watched one game of soccer with the other guy now every Saturday morning since she watched that game she has watched it again and texted him about it, yet this is something she did not like oh say a month ago.

She used to never wear make-up, he says he likes make-up so she is wearing it all the time now.
There is nothing wrong with watching football because your boyfriend likes it, and talking to him about it. What would be wrong would be lying about liking it just to make him happy, when you don't like it at all.

But this isn't your problem. This is her relationship to sort out. You don't like this man and that's okay; if she weren't living with you you would not know the micro-details of whether she texted her boyfriend about football.

You are trying to manage her life, when in fact you shouldn't have this much involvement in her life.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Alada
That right there would be me. I hated make up a year ago, no soccer for me either. Now, I actually enjoy wearing make up and I started to watch news about soccer.

Would you have not done it for a previous BF and then now done it for a new guy that does not even like you in a romantic way?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Sugarcane I understand what you are saying and yes we should change our basic concepts but not who we are.
I honestly don't understand the difference, and neither do I understand what is wrong with any of this:

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
When I mean she is changing for him it is things like she has never in her life watched soccer and her exBF liked soccer but she did not watch it with him, she told him she did not like it and to please turn the channel, she watched one game of soccer with the other guy now every Saturday morning since she watched that game she has watched it again and texted him about it, yet this is something she did not like oh say a month ago.

She used to never wear make-up, he says he likes make-up so she is wearing it all the time now.
There is nothing wrong with watching football because your boyfriend likes it, and talking to him about it. What would be wrong would be lying about liking it just to make him happy, when you don't like it at all.

But this isn't your problem. This is her relationship to sort out. You don't like this man and that's okay; if she weren't living with you you would not know the micro-details of whether she texted her boyfriend about football.

You are trying to manage her life, when in fact you shouldn't have this much involvement in her life.

Her previous BF liked it and she did not watch it with him and this new guy does not even have romantic feelings for her that is why she is doing it to make him have romantic feelings for her.

IMO there is a difference, if he was interested in her too then ok go for it, but to change yourself to make someone interested in you is not a good idea.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Would you have not done it for a previous BF and then now done it for a new guy that does not even like you in a romantic way?
For goodness sake, SC - butt out! This is none of your business!

Wearing make-up and watching and talking about football are not things that should upset you. She is not going on the game. She is not torturing small children and animals. She is trying to attract a man. Unless he tortures small children and animals, leave her alone!
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:16 PM
That is NOT the only advice you have received. You have received advice to quite enabling her, which you are doing in several ways. You have also been advised to stop being disrespectful to her, showing several examples in your posts here where you are doing so. You have been given alternative means to communicate with her. These just off the top of my head, I'm sure if you picked through the 30+ pages there would be a LOT more advice.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:18 PM
And I probably would know the micro-details, I am telling you I am very close to my children, I knew most of the micro-details between her and the exBF before they started living at my house because they both talked to me about them.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Her previous BF liked it and she did not watch it with him and this new guy does not even have romantic feelings for her that is why she is doing it to make him have romantic feelings for her.
She likes him more than she liked the other one. There's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
IMO there is a difference, if he was interested in her too then ok go for it, but to change yourself to make someone interested in you is not a good idea.
Leave her to live her own life! You are altogether far too invested in who she goes out with.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And I probably would know the micro-details, I am telling you I am very close to my children, I knew most of the micro-details between her and the exBF before they started living at my house because they both talked to me about them.

THIS. Is one of the problems. You are way too involved here SC.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Would you have not done it for a previous BF and then now done it for a new guy that does not even like you in a romantic way?
For goodness sake, SC - butt out! This is none of your business!

Wearing make-up and watching and talking about football are not things that should upset you. She is not going on the game. She is not torturing small children and animals. She is trying to attract a man. Unless he tortures small children and animals, leave her alone!

I am not upset with her about that and I am butting out of her and the new guy. She asked my advice and I told her what I thought.

I am upset with her because she is just a selfish person who does not care who she hurts to get what she wants and this relationship with this new guy is just an example of that. And I do not like it and would like to give her advice to be able to look inside herself to see what she can change for the good, not just watching soccer and wearing make-up.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And I probably would know the micro-details, I am telling you I am very close to my children, I knew most of the micro-details between her and the exBF before they started living at my house because they both talked to me about them.

THIS. Is one of the problems. You are way too involved here SC.

I do not consider this a problem, I love being involved in my kids lives......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:39 PM
I also had the DJ of saying that she liked this other guy when she was claiming she didn't but now she tells me she did which I knew all along
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 09:41 PM
I think it is different when you are dealing with your kids because I am far more invested in my children
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 10:34 PM
And I guess I don't understand enabling because the only enabling I think I am doing is allowing her to live here. What other ways am I enabling her?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/10/14 10:41 PM
My DH loves sports and would watch any sport on TV while I did start finding some interest in sports to be able to discuss things he enjoys.

I however hate basketball, I hated basketball 30 years ago and I hate it today so that is one sport I will NEVER watch with him.

I also am a smoker and my DH is not, I told him the day I met him that I was a smoker and if he did not want to date a smoker then do not date me.

So I did not change myself to make him like me, if someone likes you they like you no matter what especially in the beginning. That is why I told her bit too change herself to make someone like her.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And I guess I don't understand enabling because the only enabling I think I am doing is allowing her to live here. What other ways am I enabling her?


Still Crazy, you need to think of this in a more fine grained way. It is not just about allowing your adult children to live with you. It is about making them face the consequences of their own actions. I always think concrete examples are the easiest to understand

Your DD gets a tattoo. You know that this will prevent her from ever getting a good job but she does not (yet). At some point she comes to you in tears about the number of failed interviews she has had. If she asks for your advice, you might tell her that you understand that employers often have an unwritten policy about tattoos because customers can be upset by them. Notice how you have kept yourself and your opinion on tattoos out of this conversation and that you have not offered up a solution for her. Let her find this out. If she asks you outright for help in getting rid of the tattoo, obviously you will see what you can do but offer her information not money.

How does this tie in with enabling? Well the consequences of getting that tattoo need to be hers. She needs to find out for herself that the only job she can get with it is washing dishes. If she can come home, you are preventing her from dealing with the consequences in a way that she can learn from.

Obviously there are times when we must be there for our children but there are equally times when we must not.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 01:24 PM
Ok let me start by saying I think assumptions were made on all parts. What I write on these pages are my feelings and (as was pointed out) are very much DJs against my daughter and I am sometimes not the best at communicating with this DD (or sometimes my DH for that matter because they are so much alike and are very frustrating to deal with sometimes) and it something I work on all the time. However my feelings and my actions are not the same.

My actions when any of my children come to me for advice is first to listen (and sometimes cringe inside when I hear what they tell me) and HEAR their point of view. I answer whatever question they were there to ask me about in a way that they have to make the choice even if I think it is a poor choice they have to make their OWN choice or they will never learn anything.

When I come here and write on these pages it is my frustrations talking and part of my frustration is that I do hate to let my children make poor choices but I know I HAVE to let them grow so I write my feelings to help me sort them out. I do it here because MB is a good place for advice on relationships and this particular problem started with my DD leaving her BF.

While I know that this is ok and I know that she will meet other people (and I am fine with that I even like the other guy she likes he is a nice person). However she herself told me that she knows this guy does not have any feelings for her (because he is immature and stupid according to her) and that is why I gave her the advice to not change herself to make him like her. It is not about a relationship, she is not in a relationship with this guy. If she were in a relationship with him that would be a different story and my advice to her would have been different, but I do not believe you should change who you are to attract a guy he either likes you or he doesn�t.
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 01:48 PM
Just IMO as someone more your daughter's age, but I do see an enabling of terrible relationship habits. You treat her and her ex like they were married with kids. He was a boyfriend playing house and who knows how long that dragged on way too long as a result. At her age, a mother could encourage her to date up a storm and find Mr. Right.

You talk like you should have married him instead! You lament like a teenager.

I jest but seriously, let her date some losers and dump a "good guy". I dumped " Mr. Right" at 21 and it was the best decision of my life, my husband was Mr. Perfect. I gag to think of sticking with Mr. Right under pressure from my parents....

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Your DD gets a tattoo. You know that this will prevent her from ever getting a good job but she does not (yet). At some point she comes to you in tears about the number of failed interviews she has had. If she asks for your advice, you might tell her that you understand that employers often have an unwritten policy about tattoos because customers can be upset by them. Notice how you have kept yourself and your opinion on tattoos out of this conversation and that you have not offered up a solution for her. Let her find this out. If she asks you outright for help in getting rid of the tattoo, obviously you will see what you can do but offer her information not money.

I lost this battle as soon as she turned 18, she has 8 tattoos and three face piercings and feels that society is wrong and should accept people for who they are.

All of hers are tasteful and I do not mind them at all but because I do not like full sleeves I am part of �society� and she cannot believe I am that way I make it bad for everyone.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by alis
Just IMO as someone more your daughter's age, but I do see an enabling of terrible relationship habits. You treat her and her ex like they were married with kids. He was a boyfriend playing house and who knows how long that dragged on way too long as a result. At her age, a mother could encourage her to date up a storm and find Mr. Right.

You talk like you should have married him instead! You lament like a teenager.

I jest but seriously, let her date some losers and dump a "good guy". I dumped " Mr. Right" at 21 and it was the best decision of my life, my husband was Mr. Perfect. I gag to think of sticking with Mr. Right under pressure from my parents....

I am NOW over the fact that her and the BF split and I do want her to date others guys, I do not have a problem at all with her dating other guys and as i just posted earlier my advice would have been different if she were in a realtionship with the other guy. IMHO I do not think you should change just to MAKE someone like you, if you are in a relationship with that person that is fine but this guy does not have romantic feelings for my DD so why should she change herself just to ATTRACT him.

Attract someone who does like you and go from there.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My actions when any of my children come to me for advice is first to listen (and sometimes cringe inside when I hear what they tell me) and HEAR their point of view. I answer whatever question they were there to ask me about in a way that they have to make the choice even if I think it is a poor choice they have to make their OWN choice or they will never learn anything.

If you do not believe this to be true then why on earth would any of my kids come BACK to me for advice.
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 02:44 PM
Changing to date is not always a bad thing. I changed my ways (bit of a wild child) when I met my h at 23 (I am 30 now). He didn't care for a party girl. Sometimes it takes a potential love to help you find ways to overcome faults.

You have said basically, she is selfish etc.... So maybe changing when meeting people isn't so bad.
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 02:46 PM
After all, "I am who I am" has sure led a lot of us here in the first place wink

I get that you want the best for them and I am in no place to judge as mine are so much younger, but constant failing, screwing up, and ignoring good advice comes before growth. Besides, people always ask advice and come back without taking it, that's human nature. Like this thread and so many others wink
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
However she herself told me that she knows this guy does not have any feelings for her (because he is immature and stupid according to her) and that is why I gave her the advice to not change herself to make him like her.

Maybe I am just a mean momma but if my kid ever told me that about someone (especially someone they claim to like) I would tell my kid that person probably thinks he/she is immature and stupid too which would be a good reason that person doesn't like him/her. If the guy is immature and stupid then how stupid is she to want to be with him?

I think you seriously need to hold up a mirror in front of DD's face that can perhaps offer some lessons in humility instead of offering dating advice. DD seems to think she is all that and tears people down. You don't wonder what she says about you behind your back? She doesn't need to change for a random guy but she needs to change her basic outlook or it will never matter who she dates or marries...she will still be a disaster.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
I think you seriously need to hold up a mirror in front of DD's face that can perhaps offer some lessons in humility instead of offering dating advice. DD seems to think she is all that and tears people down. You don't wonder what she says about you behind your back? She doesn't need to change for a random guy but she needs to change her basic outlook or it will never matter who she dates or marries...she will still be a disaster.

This is my point exactly.......
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 04:03 PM
Quote
When I come here and write on these pages it is my frustrations talking and part of my frustration is that I do hate to let my children make poor choices but I know I HAVE to let them grow so I write my feelings to help me sort them out. I do it here because MB is a good place for advice on relationships and this particular problem started with my DD leaving her BF.
You do realize this is not a blogging forum, right?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
When I come here and write on these pages it is my frustrations talking and part of my frustration is that I do hate to let my children make poor choices but I know I HAVE to let them grow so I write my feelings to help me sort them out. I do it here because MB is a good place for advice on relationships and this particular problem started with my DD leaving her BF.
You do realize this is not a blogging forum, right?

Since I do not even know what that is I would say my answer is no.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 04:49 PM
Blog: A place to write about your feelings to sort them out. It contains diary-type commentary. Endless posts on feelings, with no other goal than talk about the feelings.

This forum is for people who want advice, and who will take that advice and put it into action, not people who want to blog. You are blogging.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 05:14 PM
I am not just writing, I do want advice and ways to communicate with my DD without alienating her. And to see if my thoughts or feelings are totally off the mark then to try to look at myself as well.

My DD needs to change so much to ever even consider having a good relationship.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am not just writing, I do want advice and ways to communicate with my DD without alienating her. And to see if my thoughts or feelings are totally off the mark then to try to look at myself as well.

My DD needs to change so much to ever even consider having a good relationship.

Life allows us to make mistakes.

Either we keep making them over and over again and keep getting hurt, or we Finally use them as Learning Experiences.

She will Only learn from them when she is sick and tired of the results of repeating them over and over again, expecting different results.

LTL
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by black_raven
I think you seriously need to hold up a mirror in front of DD's face that can perhaps offer some lessons in humility instead of offering dating advice. DD seems to think she is all that and tears people down. You don't wonder what she says about you behind your back? She doesn't need to change for a random guy but she needs to change her basic outlook or it will never matter who she dates or marries...she will still be a disaster.



This is my point exactly.......

Then I would stop worrying about her dating life and giving her books or dating advice vs focusing on ways to make her accountable and grow up. I do think you and your H are enabling and help to sustain "the monster" by continuing to let her live in your house...it doesn't matter if she helps pay for grocery, dog food, etc. She is 24 yrs old!! I'm not saying toss her out tomorrow but there is no reason she can't have a future move date after the holidays. You need to cut the apron strings, S_C. In that respect you are very much enabling her bad behavior to continue.
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 06:12 PM
But SC, do you see any irony here?

Everyone agrees the birdie needs a push out of the nest, less invasive involvement from mama bird, but.... You don't want to do that for your personal reasons of keeping her close/letting her face reality.

So really, the apple doesn't far fall, does it? Why would she make non-selfish steps and heed you, when you dont do the same.

Every spoiled self-centered one living at home at 24 has at least one parent who doesn't want them out for some personal reason or another. I think until you own that this is a lot of your own hovering, not much will change, will it?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And I probably would know the micro-details, I am telling you I am very close to my children, I knew most of the micro-details between her and the exBF before they started living at my house because they both talked to me about them.

THIS. Is one of the problems. You are way too involved here SC.

I do not consider this a problem, I love being involved in my kids lives......

Well, you are asking for advice and you don't want to hear it. As an outsider, this IS a part of the problem.

My daughter is 18 and moved five hrs away to college. We are still close, I love being involved and we text frequently....but I know no where near any of the microdetails of her life as you do of your children, nor would I expect to. She has grown up a lot in the short time she has been gone. (and HELL no would she ever be allowed to move a bf or spouse into my house. HELL NO!)

I want to point out that while preparing for college, a vocational rehab counselor told me that he was very impressed that I was not overly involved and that I was making my daughter handle everything herself - that in his role he sees parents that are overly involved and it cripples their children.

You are crippling your child and you can't even see it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:11 PM
I guess I can't see the forest for the trees, she lived on her own and it changed nothing.

She handled everything about going to college and getting her own place (two different places), she bought her own car. I was not involved in any of these things.

Me and my kids are close, we talk all the time about everything. And I guess i just do not understand how making her live on her own is going to better prepare her to have a relationship and not be so self centered.

Heck my DH is 57 years old and he is still self centered to a degree (where she learned it I guess), I do not want that for my child and I have gotten through to her on many things.

I just do not know how to say without hurting her the reason your exBF didn't marry you and this other guy doesn't like you is that you are a self centered b#%$*.

I can't and won't do that, there has to be something that I can tell her or send her to read or something that will make her look at herself.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am not just writing, I do want advice and ways to communicate with my DD without alienating her. And to see if my thoughts or feelings are totally off the mark then to try to look at myself as well.

My DD needs to change so much to ever even consider having a good relationship.

Life allows us to make mistakes.

Either we keep making them over and over again and keep getting hurt, or we Finally use them as Learning Experiences.

She will Only learn from them when she is sick and tired of the results of repeating them over and over again, expecting different results.

LTL

LTL I guess maybe you are right and I can do nothing for her and she will have to figure it out on her own, I just do so hate to think of her never having a good relationship.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:21 PM
Also I am just as close with my other DD and my DS (except he is a boy and does not talk about feelings a lot).

My eldest DDs BF does not live with us nor does my DS and his wife but I can tell you as much about their realtionship as I can this DD.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I guess I can't see the forest for the trees, she lived on her own and it changed nothing.

She handled everything about going to college and getting her own place (two different places), she bought her own car. I was not involved in any of these things.

Me and my kids are close, we talk all the time about everything. And I guess i just do not understand how making her live on her own is going to better prepare her to have a relationship and not be so self centered.

Heck my DH is 57 years old and he is still self centered to a degree (where she learned it I guess), I do not want that for my child and I have gotten through to her on many things.

I just do not know how to say without hurting her the reason your exBF didn't marry you and this other guy doesn't like you is that you are a self centered b#%$*.

I can't and won't do that, there has to be something that I can tell her or send her to read or something that will make her look at herself.

Your daughter and your husband are not selfish. They do what they feel is in their own best interest, and you are being disrespectful when you engage in name-calling like labeling their behavior "selfish."

None of these problems can get better as long as you reserve the right to be disrespectful like this.

There is nothing wrong with a person acting in their own self-interest. What is wrong is when you are willing to take what you want at the expense of other people. This is what happens when a person listens to their Giver and tries to ignore their Taker as you tend to do - they don't act to prevent the other person from getting what they want in a way that is hurtful. Then they resent the other person for doing it.

The solution is to not let people do things that you are not enthusiastic about. Unfortunately you are committed to the damaging practice of sacrifice, and the result is your own mounting resentment.

I looked at your posting history and people here have been trying to get through to you for years about how damaging sacrifice is, but you have always proudly defended your belief in sacrifice. I guess it gives you something to feel proud about and perhaps makes you feel like you are better than your husband and daughter. Since we haven't been able to persuade you, I hope that anyone reading along will see how your belief in sacrifice has led to this situation that is making you so resentful, and will learn to avoid it.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am not just writing, I do want advice and ways to communicate with my DD without alienating her. And to see if my thoughts or feelings are totally off the mark then to try to look at myself as well.

My DD needs to change so much to ever even consider having a good relationship.

Life allows us to make mistakes.

Either we keep making them over and over again and keep getting hurt, or we Finally use them as Learning Experiences.

She will Only learn from them when she is sick and tired of the results of repeating them over and over again, expecting different results.

LTL

LTL I guess maybe you are right and I can do nothing for her and she will have to figure it out on her own, I just do so hate to think of her never having a good relationship.

Her current version of a Good Relationship is probably diametrically opposed to your concept. She's young and she needs to make mistakes to learn from still.

Don't deny her the opportunity to learn how to grow up and be independent. Now, some could say that would be very selfish of you, albeit with the most loving intentions.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

LTL
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:34 PM
Your goal is to teach your daughter NOT to act in her own best interest.

Fortunately she is smart enough not to listen.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:34 PM
Quote
there has to be something that I can tell her or send her to read or something that will make her look at herself.
There isn't.

Leave her alone and start working on yourself.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:38 PM
I do not think either of you know what my goal is and I have left her alone.

You act like I am talking to her every night about what I want her to do.

I do not tell her what I want her to do EVER.

And maybe you should work on yourself too.....
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do not think either of you know what my goal is and I have left her alone.

Your goal is to convince her to not be "selfish."

This is not a good goal. She is wise to ignore it.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:42 PM
She should be selfish in your opinion. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my life.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:48 PM
I do not know why you all seem to think I do not let her make her own decisions, I do not ever tell her what to do (since she has become an adult) and like I said before if she did not think I did a good job at giving her advice then why in the world would she keep coming back for more and not go somewhere else to get it.

And no matter where she lives I will have the same worries and want the same things for her and try to help her in the same way that I am right now.

I realize she has to make her own mistakes she has made plenty of them (and i have as well) and learned from most of them. She is just a self centered person who thinks everything should go her way and most people (besides me and her dad) let her get away with it because they do not want the rath of my DD brought upon them.

I have no problem setting her in her place when she gets selfish and unreasonable with me. She makes my eldest DD cry about once a month because of her selfishness.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She should be selfish in your opinion. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my life.

The whole problem is that "selfish" is just a disrespectful label. You believe that sometimes people should sacrifice - do something that they do not feel is in their own best interest. When they aren't willing to do that, you call them "selfish."

This belief of yours is leading to conflict and resentment, and I hope that everybody reading along can see that, and I hope that some day you understand that people should not sacrifice and should act in a way that takes care of themselves and should not apply disrespectful labels to others like "selfish." I am glad that your daughter seems to be ignoring your view on this, because it would lead to sorrow for her as well. If she were posting here, I would advise her to avoid discussing any issues with you as long as you think of her this way.

The problem is you have a faulty value system where people should sacrifice. You DON'T really want what's best for people when you want them to sacrifice.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am not just writing, I do want advice and ways to communicate with my DD without alienating her. And to see if my thoughts or feelings are totally off the mark then to try to look at myself as well.

My DD needs to change so much to ever even consider having a good relationship.

Life allows us to make mistakes.

Either we keep making them over and over again and keep getting hurt, or we Finally use them as Learning Experiences.

She will Only learn from them when she is sick and tired of the results of repeating them over and over again, expecting different results.

LTL

LTL I guess maybe you are right and I can do nothing for her and she will have to figure it out on her own, I just do so hate to think of her never having a good relationship.

Her current version of a Good Relationship is probably diametrically opposed to your concept. She's young and she needs to make mistakes to learn from still.

Don't deny her the opportunity to learn how to grow up and be independent. Now, some could say that would be very selfish of you, albeit with the most loving intentions.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

LTL

I have not denied her that she is independent other than living under my roof trust me there has never been a more independent person in the world smile
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She should be selfish in your opinion. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my life.

The whole problem is that "selfish" is just a disrespectful label. You believe that sometimes people should sacrifice - do something that they do not feel is in their own best interest. When they aren't willing to do that, you call them "selfish."

This belief of yours is leading to conflict and resentment, and I hope that everybody reading along can see that, and I hope that some day you understand that people should not sacrifice and should act in a way that takes care of themselves and should not apply disrespectful labels to others like "selfish." I am glad that your daughter seems to be ignoring your view on this, because it would lead to sorrow for her as well. If she were posting here, I would advise her to avoid discussing any issues with you as long as you think of her this way.

The problem is you have a faulty value system where people should sacrifice. You DON'T really want what's best for people when you want them to sacrifice.

That is not true my DD is not a nice person, you do not know her and I am not exaggerating when I tell you that many many many people have told me that including my own family members.

And I do not want her to sacrifice anything I just want her to at least think about others sometimes not just alwyas do what DD wants.

She will come in and just turn the TV and my eldest DD is not "brave" enough to say anything, instead she will cry and go upstairs. If I am there I tell her what do you think you are doing I was watching that show to which she will reply "well when will it be over" in the worst tone you could possibly imagine and then it in the living room and sulk until my program is over.

And I have not talked to her about anything so I do not know how you figure I am trying to talk her into anything.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:12 PM
And did you not read however many pages ago that my eldest DD has the sacrificing issue and I did not like when she was doing that either.

She has finally decided she didn't like that and find a guy with whom she doesn't have to sacrifice anything and I couldn't be happier fir her.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:13 PM
And did you not read however many pages ago that my eldest DD has the sacrificing issue and I did not like when she was doing that either.

She has finally decided she didn't like that and find a guy with whom she doesn't have to sacrifice anything and I couldn't be happier fir her.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:20 PM
What I don't get is why you are on a Marriage Help forum blogging about your daughters.

You say you want advice, but then refuse to listen to it.

Maybe you need to start a blog. Or a diary.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:21 PM
Quote
The whole problem is that "selfish" is just a disrespectful label.
You've been here 7 years and you don't know this?
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She should be selfish in your opinion. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my life.

The whole problem is that "selfish" is just a disrespectful label. You believe that sometimes people should sacrifice - do something that they do not feel is in their own best interest. When they aren't willing to do that, you call them "selfish."

This belief of yours is leading to conflict and resentment, and I hope that everybody reading along can see that, and I hope that some day you understand that people should not sacrifice and should act in a way that takes care of themselves and should not apply disrespectful labels to others like "selfish." I am glad that your daughter seems to be ignoring your view on this, because it would lead to sorrow for her as well. If she were posting here, I would advise her to avoid discussing any issues with you as long as you think of her this way.

The problem is you have a faulty value system where people should sacrifice. You DON'T really want what's best for people when you want them to sacrifice.

That is not true my DD is not a nice person, you do not know her and I am not exaggerating when I tell you that many many many people have told me that including my own family members.

But that's not a problem of being selfish. That's a problem of wanting to get your way at the expense of other people. The problem is not that she is thinking of herself - the problem is that she needs to think about other people as well. "Selfish" is a disrespectful label, and using it even when you are just talking about it to us makes this problem worse.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I guess I can't see the forest for the trees, she lived on her own and it changed nothing.

She handled everything about going to college and getting her own place (two different places), she bought her own car. I was not involved in any of these things.

Me and my kids are close, we talk all the time about everything. And I guess i just do not understand how making her live on her own is going to better prepare her to have a relationship and not be so self centered.

Heck my DH is 57 years old and he is still self centered to a degree (where she learned it I guess), I do not want that for my child and I have gotten through to her on many things.

I just do not know how to say without hurting her the reason your exBF didn't marry you and this other guy doesn't like you is that you are a self centered b#%$*.

I can't and won't do that, there has to be something that I can tell her or send her to read or something that will make her look at herself.

Your daughter and your husband are not selfish. They do what they feel is in their own best interest, and you are being disrespectful when you engage in name-calling like labeling their behavior "selfish."

None of these problems can get better as long as you reserve the right to be disrespectful like this.

There is nothing wrong with a person acting in their own self-interest. What is wrong is when you are willing to take what you want at the expense of other people. This is what happens when a person listens to their Giver and tries to ignore their Taker as you tend to do - they don't act to prevent the other person from getting what they want in a way that is hurtful. Then they resent the other person for doing it.

The solution is to not let people do things that you are not enthusiastic about. Unfortunately you are committed to the damaging practice of sacrifice, and the result is your own mounting resentment.

I looked at your posting history and people here have been trying to get through to you for years about how damaging sacrifice is, but you have always proudly defended your belief in sacrifice. I guess it gives you something to feel proud about and perhaps makes you feel like you are better than your husband and daughter. Since we haven't been able to persuade you, I hope that anyone reading along will see how your belief in sacrifice has led to this situation that is making you so resentful, and will learn to avoid it.

I think that you do not know my DD or my DH, they both What is wrong is when you are willing to take what you want at the expense of other people. do this so that in my opinion is selfish
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She will come in and just turn the TV and my eldest DD is not "brave" enough to say anything, instead she will cry and go upstairs.

Your eldest daughter is listening to her Giver, and not her Taker. Your eldest daughter needs to be MORE selfish - she needs to think more about what is in her own best interest and bringing her interest into play with her sister. But you have probably taught her that it is wrong to do that by labeling that "selfish."

She should be selfish! She just shouldn't try to get her way at the expense of other people.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She should be selfish in your opinion. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my life.

The whole problem is that "selfish" is just a disrespectful label. You believe that sometimes people should sacrifice - do something that they do not feel is in their own best interest. When they aren't willing to do that, you call them "selfish."

This belief of yours is leading to conflict and resentment, and I hope that everybody reading along can see that, and I hope that some day you understand that people should not sacrifice and should act in a way that takes care of themselves and should not apply disrespectful labels to others like "selfish." I am glad that your daughter seems to be ignoring your view on this, because it would lead to sorrow for her as well. If she were posting here, I would advise her to avoid discussing any issues with you as long as you think of her this way.

The problem is you have a faulty value system where people should sacrifice. You DON'T really want what's best for people when you want them to sacrifice.

That is not true my DD is not a nice person, you do not know her and I am not exaggerating when I tell you that many many many people have told me that including my own family members.

But that's not a problem of being selfish. That's a problem of wanting to get your way at the expense of other people. The problem is not that she is thinking of herself - the problem is that she needs to think about other people as well. "Selfish" is a disrespectful label, and using it even when you are just talking about it to us makes this problem worse.

What is it then if it is not selfish or self centered......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
She will come in and just turn the TV and my eldest DD is not "brave" enough to say anything, instead she will cry and go upstairs.

Your eldest daughter is listening to her Giver, and not her Taker. Your eldest daughter needs to be MORE selfish - she needs to think more about what is in her own best interest and bringing her interest into play with her sister. But you have probably taught her that it is wrong to do that by labeling that "selfish."

She should be selfish! She just shouldn't try to get her way at the expense of other people.

I have taught her no such thing, as I said I do not let my DD do that to me, my eldest DD is too sensitive and cries at the drop of a hat, I have tried to teach her to stand up for herself and not let her sister bother her or let others walk all over her like she tends to do. She is getting much better at it the older she gets with others but for whatever reason not with her sister.
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:34 PM
Being an immature single childless 24 year old who is looking out for her best self-interest. Really. And if you aren't going to take any action, then it just sounds like an angry blog rant about how she does not conform to what you want her to be. If you want to talk about selfish quite frankly, I find this entire thread to be about how you want your child to live her life according to your beliefs.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
[quote=Still_Crazy]She should be selfish! She just shouldn't try to get her way at the expense of other people.

I have taught her no such thing

Yes you have - that is what you teach people when you tell them it is wrong to be "selfish."
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:37 PM
My mind boggles at how these children are my age (married with 2 kids) yet I feel like crying and interrupting a TV show is a dispute between two elementary children.

You want these kids to grow up then for goodness sake. For every millennial acting 12, you have a millennial parent wanting to keep them 12...
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:37 PM
What do you suggest I do OTHER than throwing her out?

If that is my only recourse according to MB then I guess I am done because that is not something I am willing to do.....
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That is not true my DD is not a nice person, you do not know her and I am not exaggerating when I tell you that many many many people have told me that including my own family members.

But that's not a problem of being selfish. That's a problem of wanting to get your way at the expense of other people. The problem is not that she is thinking of herself - the problem is that she needs to think about other people as well. "Selfish" is a disrespectful label, and using it even when you are just talking about it to us makes this problem worse.

What is it then if it is not selfish or self centered......

Doing things that hurt other people.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
[quote=Still_Crazy]She should be selfish! She just shouldn't try to get her way at the expense of other people.

I have taught her no such thing

Yes you have - that is what you teach people when you tell them it is wrong to be "selfish."

We have different definitions of selfish. My youngest DD and my DH do this "to take what you want at the expense of other people" so in my opinjion that is being selfish, I do not know what else to call it other than that.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:41 PM
Is not doing things that hurt other people the same as being selfish?

I do not see the difference. There is obviously something I do not understand.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by alis
My mind boggles at how these children are my age (married with 2 kids) yet I feel like crying and interrupting a TV show is a dispute between two elementary children.

You want these kids to grow up then for goodness sake. For every millennial acting 12, you have a millennial parent wanting to keep them 12...

My kids have only been with me for less than a year and I would have the same worries about my youngest DD regardless of where she lived and be asking the same questions to try to help her see herself.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:51 PM
For the millionth time I am just concerned about my DD.

I do not want her to live my life, I do not want her to sacrifice, I do not want her to do what I think is best, I want her to date all the people in the world until she finds Mr Right, I want her to be the best she can be without me.

My problem is this DD happens to be for lack of anything to put myself I will take what someone else said an immature single childless 24 year old who is looking out for her best self-interest and I would like to be able to show her that is not a good thing without alienating her.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
[quote=Still_Crazy]She should be selfish! She just shouldn't try to get her way at the expense of other people.

I have taught her no such thing

Yes you have - that is what you teach people when you tell them it is wrong to be "selfish."

We have different definitions of selfish. My youngest DD and my DH do this "to take what you want at the expense of other people" so in my opinjion that is being selfish, I do not know what else to call it other than that.

But you have called your daughter selfish even for doing things that are not done to hurt other people, like when she broke up with her boyfriend. She has every right to break up with her boyfriend, but you came here posting about it because you felt it was selfish. You have "hurting people" and "doing what I feel is best for myself" both mixed up under the same label of "selfish."
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
For the millionth time I am just concerned about my DD.

And for the millionth time you are very disrespectful about your daughter, and that is the biggest problem here.
Posted By: alis Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:54 PM
See, there lies the confusion. There is nothing wrong with self-interest as a young single childless woman.

If she had followed your beliefs, she would have suppressed her taker and married that live-in boyfriend, rather than rightly ending it.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My problem is this DD happens to be for lack of anything to put myself I will take what someone else said an immature single childless 24 year old who is looking out for her best self-interest and I would like to be able to show her that is not a good thing

But there is nothing wrong with that at all. There's nothing wrong with being single and childless; there's nothing wrong with breaking off one dating relationship to choose another. You want her to do differently, but that is your own selfishness speaking.
Posted By: markos Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Is not doing things that hurt other people the same as being selfish?

I do not see the difference. There is obviously something I do not understand.

Calling someone "selfish" is name calling. It's disrespectful.

Saying "That hurt me" is not disrespectful.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My problem is this DD happens to be for lack of anything to put myself I will take what someone else said an immature single childless 24 year old who is looking out for her best self-interest and I would like to be able to show her that is not a good thing

But there is nothing wrong with that at all. There's nothing wrong with being single and childless; there's nothing wrong with breaking off one dating relationship to choose another. You want her to do differently, but that is your own selfishness speaking.

Oh my gosh I do not, I do not want her to do different, I am past that now, the day I came here I was upset about her breaking up with the BF because I MISTAKENLY thought they would get married.

I got over that after a few days and I was only upset here online not at home and I know that she made the right desicion after she talked to me and told me her reasoning.

Now let's move on to a new relationship ok. How will she ever be able to be in any kind of a relationship when her way is to "hurt others to get her way"?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Is not doing things that hurt other people the same as being selfish?

I do not see the difference. There is obviously something I do not understand.

Calling someone "selfish" is name calling. It's disrespectful.

Saying "That hurt me" is not disrespectful.

What do you call it when you are not saying it?

For me to tell her that hurt me is fine, but here on this page what other term can I use other than selfish so that you do not feel I am disrespecting my DD. I just do not know of any other term to use.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by alis
See, there lies the confusion. There is nothing wrong with self-interest as a young single childless woman.

If she had followed your beliefs, she would have suppressed her taker and married that live-in boyfriend, rather than rightly ending it.

My goodness I do not want her to be with the exBF, she can date whoever she wants, I want her to not "get her way while hurting others"
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
For the millionth time I am just concerned about my DD.

And for the millionth time you are very disrespectful about your daughter, and that is the biggest problem here.

I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone much less my DD. I do not know what else to say to make you understand that I use the word selfish because my definition of the word selfish is "to hurt others to get your way".

And my DD is certainly that way.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:25 PM
It doesn't matter what your definition is. It is still disrespectful.

I used to call markos a [censored]. My definition of a [censored] was "a man who hurts his wife." That didn't make calling him a [censored] any less disrespectful.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by markos
But you have called your daughter selfish even for doing things that are not done to hurt other people, like when she broke up with her boyfriend. She has every right to break up with her boyfriend, but you came here posting about it because you felt it was selfish. You have "hurting people" and "doing what I feel is best for myself" both mixed up under the same label of "selfish."

What else are they? I do not know how else to state it. She doesn't just do what is best for herself if that were the case this post would never have never existed, she is the hurting people kind. So whatever that is is what she is.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
It doesn't matter what your definition is. It is still disrespectful.

I used to call markos a [censored]. My definition of a [censored] was "a man who hurts his wife." That didn't make calling him a [censored] any less disrespectful.

What term would you like me to usse that is not disrespectful.

She does what she wants when she wants and it does not matter who she hurts in the process. What would you call that?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Prisca
It doesn't matter what your definition is. It is still disrespectful.

I used to call markos a [censored]. My definition of a [censored] was "a man who hurts his wife." That didn't make calling him a [censored] any less disrespectful.

What term would you like me to usse that is not disrespectful.

She does what she wants when she wants and it does not matter who she hurts in the process. What would you call that?


Whats wrong with simply calling it a decision that has hurt someone? why seek to slap a permanent label on her?

Better yet, I would say the people in your daughter's life decide to be hurt.

Truly, though, I think your daughters' main issue is that she is surrounded by people who give her things, freely on offer, and she is then blamed when she takes it.

That's because you all have unspoken agendas under the masquerade of unconditional love.

You give her a home, and advice, regardless of how she behaves. The massage is clear; this is your home unconditionally. No matter how nuts you drive us all.

Then it is somehow a problem when her behaviour is offensive or 'selfish'. So it is not really unconditional at all. There is a hidden condition.

Her boyfriend has long been in a habit in which he meets her needs and shares her expenses. Without the condition of a formal commitment. Then suddenly it is an issue when she starts acting uncommitted. And he still unconditionally meets her needs!!!

Your eldest DD gives time and effort into a relationship with her sister. In spite of the fact it is frequently unrewarding. Blatantly disregarding herself, she is in tears constantly, when she should be taking care of herSELF instead of her sister.

We are all responsible for ourSELVES. For getting the best deal on offer. if the person on the other end of the deal is giving it away for free then perhaps they should take better care of themselves instead of blaming the recipient.

This may be called selfish but it is very responsible to care for yourself instead of expecting others to do it!

Dr Harley says people with an overactive giver should view themselves as store owners. Sure they want happy, smiling customers leaving the store with the goods they want. They want to be cleared out. But they are not giving it away for free!! They also want full cash registers.

Your store is your home and your advice. What you want in the cash register is a daughter in a happy, equal relationship with your future son-in-law, daughters who respect each other and for her decisions to be made with others in mind.

If you are willing to give away your goods without getting those hings in your cash register - that's on you. That is your decision. That tells your daughter you are happy with the transaction between you two - and if she is happy too (why wouldn't she be?) then nothing need change.

That's because actions are far more powerful than words. If you SAY to your daughter she needs to take others into account, she will naturally look to her own cash register and not find anything wanting.

A pragmatist who is really very responsible for herself and welfare, she will conclude you are just paying lip service to an ideal and there is no need to make real changes. You haven't, after all.

However if you SHOWED her the door, she would begin a process of discovering what she needs to survive without your shelter and advice and needs meeting. She may need to fail a few times before she discovers what it is. Maybe not accept her home again the very first time she fails again.

What's the betting that she will discover a man who neither gives in to her, or takes from her, is the best survivor to help?

She is already quite a survivor herself.

Be aware that I am not telling you to kick her out if you don't want to - If YOU are happy with the relationship and her reactions to life decisions while she is there, then it serves YOU - your SELF -well.

However your plan seems to be to make HER responsible for your happiness and it is selfish if she does not accept your world view.




Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 10:47 PM
I guess that I am done then and will just tell my DD to get the hell out and do whatever you want whenever you want no matter what but don't ever ask me for help again, see you have a good life.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/11/14 11:32 PM
Of course she can ask you for help, but only give it when you are enthusiastically happy with all circumstances.

Instead of helping because you feel you should not be selfish. Or expecting her motivations to be so.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 01:26 AM
My DD is hurtful in her ways and I would not tell her or anyone else to do what they want when they want no matter what.

My lesson has always been do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
What do you suggest I do OTHER than throwing her out?

If that is my only recourse according to MB then I guess I am done because that is not something I am willing to do.....
What about writing Dr. Harley?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 03:43 PM
Quote
If that is my only recourse according to MB then I guess I am done because that is not something I am willing to do.....

I think you should continue what you've been doing. Continue talking to and about your daughter the way you have. Continue to enable her. Don't change anything.

Is that what you want to hear?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 03:47 PM
Quote
My lesson has always been do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
You would have other people treat you like a 5 year old?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Of course she can ask you for help, but only give it when you are enthusiastically happy with all circumstances.

Instead of helping because you feel you should not be selfish. Or expecting her motivations to be so.

My helping is my taker so if anything that is my selfish side and I do not want her to have the same views or opinions as me nor do I expect anything in return. I want her to not be a mean, nasty, rude person, who thinks she should always get her way on everything like a little kid would.

Such as checking with someone else before you just turn the TV or waiting until someone else's laundry is finished before you take it out and put yours in, or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers, or making sure everyone has eaten dinner before you take the rest of the food, or getting a horrible attitude and being nasty because you are cooking a dinner she does not like, or etc, etc, etc

If she never sees that her actions offend people she will never change and may be a lonely old person
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
If she never sees that her actions offend people she will never change and may be a lonely old person


Actually you should worry less about her and more about submissive DD. Assertive kids survive, submissive kids often land up at the bottom of the heap. It is too easy to exploit them. My gentle middle child learned to be aggressive to prevent herself being trampled on by her very dominant younger sibling.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Such as checking with someone else before you just turn the TV or waiting until someone else's laundry is finished before you take it out and put yours in, or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers, or making sure everyone has eaten dinner before you take the rest of the food, or getting a horrible attitude and being nasty because you are cooking a dinner she does not like, or etc, etc, etc

You are perfectly within your rights to tell her not to do any of the above. Telling someone they are stupid is not permitted. You should all call her out on it. Calmly say that she is being disrespectful every time she makes a statement like that and then get up and leave the room.

On the dinner, laundry and tv, just smile and say that you look forward to being invited to her house but in the meantime she is a guest in yours and you expect appropriate behavior from her. If she cannot behave appropriately she will have to leave. This should be followed up by action.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Such as checking with someone else before you just turn the TV or waiting until someone else's laundry is finished before you take it out and put yours in, or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers, or making sure everyone has eaten dinner before you take the rest of the food, or getting a horrible attitude and being nasty because you are cooking a dinner she does not like, or etc, etc, etc

ALL things that would not be a problem if she did not live with you. smile
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Such as checking with someone else before you just turn the TV or waiting until someone else's laundry is finished before you take it out and put yours in, or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers, or making sure everyone has eaten dinner before you take the rest of the food, or getting a horrible attitude and being nasty because you are cooking a dinner she does not like, or etc, etc, etc

You are perfectly within your rights to tell her not to do any of the above. Telling someone they are stupid is not permitted. You should all call her out on it. Calmly say that she is being disrespectful every time she makes a statement like that and then get up and leave the room.

On the dinner, laundry and tv, just smile and say that you look forward to being invited to her house but in the meantime she is a guest in yours and you expect appropriate behavior from her. If she cannot behave appropriately she will have to leave. This should be followed up by action.

I actually do call her out on her disrespectfullness and my DH does too but we are the only two that do at our house anyway I do not know about at work if people call her out or not. Maybe if she got treated the way she treated others ALL the time she would see but if most people let her get away with it then I guess she doesn't stand a chance of seeing it.

I do worry about the "conflict avoider" DD too because she does tend to let others take advantage of her way too much.

And I cannot wait until she gets her a place of her own again, I am going to go over there and do all the things she has done to me at my house smile.

Really I do eventually want her to leave but her plans were to be there with the exBF for at least another 5 months so I have to let her be there that long for sure and since she no longer has the exBF she is going to have to find a roommate, she will not live alone due to her siezure disorder, it scares her to be alone.

That is why I will not just throw her out and who knows what will happen between now and then but I still really would like to find something to help her.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:55 PM
Quote
or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers
You mean, the way you think her ideas are stupid?

Quote
She will not take out her piercings or cover her tatoos to get certain jobs where she would make more money, that is stupid not someone being their own woman.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Such as checking with someone else before you just turn the TV or waiting until someone else's laundry is finished before you take it out and put yours in, or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers, or making sure everyone has eaten dinner before you take the rest of the food, or getting a horrible attitude and being nasty because you are cooking a dinner she does not like, or etc, etc, etc

ALL things that would not be a problem if she did not live with you. smile

They wouldn't be a problem for me, but they would still be a problem for her so if my child has a problem then I have a problem.
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 08:59 PM
No. You are wrong. She is an adult, and her problems are not your problems. They are definitely not your problems to solve.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 09:06 PM
I am not trying to solve them, I am trying to find something for her to read or a website where she can go or something like that that will help her to solve her own problems but first to see that part of her problems is herself.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 09:07 PM
Because right now if you ask her ALL of her problems are because of someone else and nothing to do with her.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Such as checking with someone else before you just turn the TV or waiting until someone else's laundry is finished before you take it out and put yours in, or telling ANYONE that their opinion is "stupid" because it is not the same as hers, or making sure everyone has eaten dinner before you take the rest of the food, or getting a horrible attitude and being nasty because you are cooking a dinner she does not like, or etc, etc, etc

ALL things that would not be a problem if she did not live with you. smile

They wouldn't be a problem for me, but they would still be a problem for her so if my child has a problem then I have a problem.

What? crazy They are a problem for you. This entire thread is about how you have a problem with DD24 being selfish, thoughtless, or whatever other word you want to use to describe her behavior that you don't like. If she wasn't in your house to upset you that would greatly relieve much of problem.

You don't have boundaries and allow DD24 to disrupt your household, get mad about it, rinse and repeat. I don't understand what is the big mystery here, S_C. You allow what you consider selfish, thoughtless or bad behavior in your house because she is your child.
Posted By: black_raven Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Really I do eventually want her to leave but her plans were to be there with the exBF for at least another 5 months so I have to let her be there that long for sure

You don't "have" to do anything. It's your house and she is not a minor.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Because right now if you ask her ALL of her problems are because of someone else and nothing to do with her.

Pot, kettle.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/12/14 09:13 PM
The original poster said they wouldn't be a problem if she wasn't there.

That is why I said yeah they wouldn't be a problem for me in my house but they would still be a problem for my child.

I am not contesting that I have allowed her to do it and continue to allow her to do it in my home.

In my home is not MY issue, I want to help my DD
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
What do you suggest I do OTHER than throwing her out?

If that is my only recourse according to MB then I guess I am done because that is not something I am willing to do.....
What about writing Dr. Harley?
Why won't you answer this?
Posted By: unwritten Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 06:20 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am not trying to solve them, I am trying to find something for her to read or a website where she can go or something like that that will help her to solve her own problems but first to see that part of her problems is herself.

Wow. That is such a circle jerk of a statement I don't even know where to begin.

If you show her a WEBSITE, btw, that does not necessarily mean she will read the website and see that part of the problem is HERSELF, because there are people that spend hours on a website and still refuse to see that part of the problem is themselves. Not naming any names here, I'm just saying, it can happen.

think
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
My problem is this DD happens to be for lack of anything to put myself I will take what someone else said an immature single childless 24 year old who is looking out for her best self-interest and I would like to be able to show her that is not a good thing

But there is nothing wrong with that at all. There's nothing wrong with being single and childless; there's nothing wrong with breaking off one dating relationship to choose another. You want her to do differently, but that is your own selfishness speaking.

Oh my gosh I do not, I do not want her to do different, I am past that now, the day I came here I was upset about her breaking up with the BF because I MISTAKENLY thought they would get married.

I got over that after a few days and I was only upset here online not at home and I know that she made the right desicion after she talked to me and told me her reasoning.

Now let's move on to a new relationship ok. How will she ever be able to be in any kind of a relationship when her way is to "hurt others to get her way"?


Isn't that her business?

Personally I don't see how a young single woman can AVOID hurting others to get her way. Dating is brutal and it is for her to figure out how to endure and dole out rejection. She will find something that works for her. She is very good at looking out for herself.

The only danger is that she will take your advice about putting others first literally. If she does that she will end up very unhappy and will end up blaming otothers for her unhappiness as you have done.

You are not unhappy because of your daughter. You are unhappy because you think you can impact on another adults choices without even allowing them to experience those choices for themselves.

If her choices don't make her happy, she will change them. She will. Not you.

You simply want the satisfaction of seeing your advice come to fruition. To do that, you were even willing to sacrifice your principles on marriage. You think that if you give out what others want you'll get back what you want. That's not what 'do unto others' means. It means give people the same respect to live their lives based upon their own principles, just as you would wish to have.

You ask how will she have a good relationship? None of your business, that's how.

She's an adult, and not your spouse. Even if she were a spouse she has the right to make choices in her self interest. People can only do what is right for them. We are solely responsible for our own happiness after all. Nobody else is.

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 07:04 PM
This whole scenerio is a situation that you have caused.
You encouraged her daughter to play marriage and now are upset she quit playing the game.
Do you plan on being a meddling mother when she finally does get married?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 09:10 PM
I guess I just do not understand, all of you seem to think that I want her to think my way I do not and have never wanted any of my kids to think my way, I have always told them this is my opinion, get others and formulate your own. I do not want them to be little mes how boring would that be, they are each individuals and have their own good quailties and bad qualities like the rest of the world in general.

And you think that I am unhappy and BLAMING problems on others. I am not unhappy NOW at all, I WAS upset because the break up of a long term relationship at first for the wrong reasons and then later on just because it has indeed been a long term relationship and he will be missed. And the only PROBLEM I have is that I feel concern for my DD.

I get frustrated in my house over the things my DD does that are disrespectful however when I am around I tell her that she is doing it and to stop now usually she will have an attitude about it but she will stop because it is MY house and she is well aware of that.

And it seems that the majority of you think it is okay for a person to be hurtful to people to get your way. It is not about getting her way, she is GREAT at getting her way, heck I can be pretty good at getting my way if I want to.

My DD is rude and disrespectful and down right mean sometimes to get her way if she were not my DD I would probably cuss her out and never speak to her again.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
This whole scenerio is a situation that you have caused.
You encouraged her daughter to play marriage and now are upset she quit playing the game.
Do you plan on being a meddling mother when she finally does get married?

I do not tell them anything unless they ask for my advice and my DS who is married does ask for my advice. Does that make me a meddling mother to him too?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
What do you suggest I do OTHER than throwing her out?

If that is my only recourse according to MB then I guess I am done because that is not something I am willing to do.....
What about writing Dr. Harley?
Why won't you answer this?

Can I remain anonymous?
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 10:25 PM
Why would you want an adult to live with you if you believed her to be rude and disrespectful? That's the problem here, your actions don't match your words. I would never live with anybody who I could sincerely apply those words to. Not for five minutes.

You may say you find her behaviour objectionable, but talk is cheap. What your behaviour says is that you are happy to put a roof over the head of this woman and her behaviour. That you are happy with her behaviour.

I have every sympathy for people who are genuinely hurt as victims, but this is all voluntary. Voluntary sacrifice with a slice of 'I know best' which is enourmously disrespectful to HER, a fellow adult. The fact you get to know best in your home only serves to underline the fact she can only get self respect elsewhere.

You and your other daughter don't get along with her, but you both volunteer to live with her. Thats the key message here.

Don't volunteer for situations you dont want. You are the person who designed this situation, either you are happy with it or you are not.

If you're not, and not willing to change any of it, then guess what? It won't change.

That's your decision and no one else's.

Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
What do you suggest I do OTHER than throwing her out?

If that is my only recourse according to MB then I guess I am done because that is not something I am willing to do.....
What about writing Dr. Harley?
Why won't you answer this?

Can I remain anonymous?


Yes you can.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
This whole scenerio is a situation that you have caused.
You encouraged her daughter to play marriage and now are upset she quit playing the game.
Do you plan on being a meddling mother when she finally does get married?

I do not tell them anything unless they ask for my advice and my DS who is married does ask for my advice. Does that make me a meddling mother to him too?


It depends. Giving an asked for opinion of what you personally think cannot be described as meddling. Deciding you know better, or deciding that his mind set, morals and behaviour is inferior or flawed is where it crosses the line into disrespect and meddling.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 11:18 PM
.that seems like you are saying it is perfectly fine for her to be disrespectful but NOT ok for me to be even though I don't think I am being disrespectful to anyone my DD would tell you to your face that she is a [censored]
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 11:35 PM
That is incredibly and deeply sad.

Almost as sad as the decision to move in someone who she didn't want to marry, but who everyone felt was as well as she could do as no one else would put up with her?


Like I've said, I'm not opposed to an adult living with a parent in a situation where it works. It's just I don't get why you are so resolute on one which you say does not work.

Then why did you propose it and why do you sustain it?

I'm not sure how her behaviour can have been good since she was living with her boyfriend under her mother's roof. As plans go to encourage drama, it can't be beat.

Initially I thought you made a genuine mistake in mistaking their relationship for something that would turn into marriage.

But you are not letting go. You are intent on her fitting in with your ideals of where she should be in life and for you that's a serious relationship. Or behaviour which you think deserving of a serious relationship.

She's in her early twenties and has never left home for real. Of course she isn't ready! She will need to take a lot of knocks and date a lot of frogs before that. She's already discovered doormat men are woefully inadequate.

She's one step closer thanks to this break up.

You want her acting like an adult under her mother's roof (impossible) and ready for marriage.

She wants to make discoveries.


It's not your decision. Let it go.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Why would you want an adult to live with you if you believed her to be rude and disrespectful? That's the problem here, your actions don't match your words. I would never live with anybody who I could sincerely apply those words to. Not for five minutes.

You may say you find her behaviour objectionable, but talk is cheap. What your behaviour says is that you are happy to put a roof over the head of this woman and her behaviour. That you are happy with her behaviour.

I have every sympathy for people who are genuinely hurt as victims, but this is all voluntary. Voluntary sacrifice with a slice of 'I know best' which is enourmously disrespectful to HER, a fellow adult. The fact you get to know best in your home only serves to underline the fact she can only get self respect elsewhere.

You and your other daughter don't get along with her, but you both volunteer to live with her. Thats the key message here.

Don't volunteer for situations you dont want. You are the person who designed this situation, either you are happy with it or you are not.

If you're not, and not willing to change any of it, then guess what? It won't change.

That's your decision and no one else's.

Never once did I say I don't get along with her we are close and do things together and talk as do her and her sister. I do not like her behavior for her sake not my sake, I could care less because as I have said before it being in MY home is not the issue it is the issue of I would like her to SEE it, I tell her, her sister tells her, her dad tells her, her exBF told her, her friends have told her.

Her attitude and behavior has lost her jobs and friends and lots of things. But I guess no one can see except through their own eyes and the only thing I can do is how that someday she does SEE.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 11:45 PM
Great. I am glad that the living situation is happier than I thought.

All's well then.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
That is incredibly and deeply sad.

Almost as sad as the decision to move in someone who she didn't want to marry, but who everyone felt was as well as she could do as no one else would put up with her?


Like I've said, I'm not opposed to an adult living with a parent in a situation where it works. It's just I don't get why you are so resolute on one which you say does not work.

Then why did you propose it and why do you sustain it?

I'm not sure how her behaviour can have been good since she was living with her boyfriend under her mother's roof. As plans go to encourage drama, it can't be beat.

Initially I thought you made a genuine mistake in mistaking their relationship for something that would turn into marriage.

But you are not letting go. You are intent on her fitting in with your ideals of where she should be in life and for you that's a serious relationship. Or behaviour which you think deserving of a serious relationship.

She's in her early twenties and has never left home for real. Of course she isn't ready! She will need to take a lot of knocks and date a lot of frogs before that. She's already discovered doormat men are woefully inadequate.

She's one step closer thanks to this break up.

You want her acting like an adult under her mother's roof (impossible) and ready for marriage.

She wants to make discoveries.


It's not your decision. Let it go.

Oh my goodness I am just done you are making HORRIBLE assumptions about me.
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: motherly advice - 11/13/14 11:52 PM
I hope you contact Dr. Harley, anonymously if you prefer, just to get his unbiased opinion on your situation.

LTL
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/14/14 01:52 PM
I would like to make this post on my views about my children and being married.

My eldest DD is 27 and has cried to me about the fact that she is so ready to get married and have kids however she FORTUNATELY has not; since she has not found the right guy (until maybe this time) I am so happy that she has never just got married for the sake of being married.

My DS married his high school sweetheart 2 days after he turned 21 and bought a house and we just found out recently is expecting a child. I am so happy for him too because that is what he wanted to do. I think it is so young but he was ready and is doing wonderful.

My youngest DD had been planning a wedding with her exBF (even though he had not yet proposed they both talked about what they wanted for their wedding). She had watched wedding shows for the last two years so much so that we would say will you two get married already. She had picked out the type of ring she wanted, the type of dress she wanted, she wanted to do her bouquet in pretty flower broaches instead of regular flowers and had already bought them and had been messing around with them to see what kind of look she wanted on a bouquet thing that I bought for her. Two months or so before the other guy moved here she had given the exBF an ultimatum that if he had not proposed by their anniversary of next year (the same time they were supposed to move out of my house) that she was going to move on because she was tired of waiting to get married.

So now she is not getting married and as you all of pointed out and I agree that is not a bad thing and I am SO glad she chose to break it off if she thinks she has feelings for this other guy, as she said it is not fair to either her or the exBF. I still will miss the exBF he was a nice guy and him and my DD were together for 5 years.

I will meet other BFs (maybe this other guy, who knows, that I also like) and I will either like them or not (same as before the exBF), but regardless of my feelings I will not be the one who is in the relationship, she will, so it is her feelings that matter about the BF not mine.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 11/14/14 02:32 PM
SC, this would be a great opportunity to teach your daughter some life skills about marriage and shacking up. When she shacks up with anyone she is wrecking that relationship by establishing a month to month renters agreement. So even if it would have been a good match, it is wrecked by the practice of shacking up.

You could print up this article to show her: Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/14/14 02:49 PM
Thanks Mel, I will show it ot her or leave it lying around for her to see.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 11/14/14 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Thanks Mel, I will show it ot her or leave it lying around for her to see.

I sat my son down and went over it with him when he decided to shack up with his fiance. [they shacked up for a few months before their wedding] I made sure he knew he knew I didn't approve and expected MUCH BETTER out of him.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/15/14 05:00 AM
When are you emailing Dr. Harley?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 01:20 PM
It�s common to approach relationships cautiously, asking �what�s in it for me?� before extending a helping hand. However, it�s far more rewarding not to wait until you�re certain of getting something out of a relationship before you�re willing to invest in it. When you serve on the front end, you unlock the benefits of reciprocity. Occasionally others will take advantage of your goodwill, but far more often people will respond to your support with grateful generosity.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
It�s common to approach relationships cautiously, asking �what�s in it for me?� before extending a helping hand. However, it�s far more rewarding not to wait until you�re certain of getting something out of a relationship before you�re willing to invest in it. When you serve on the front end, you unlock the benefits of reciprocity. Occasionally others will take advantage of your goodwill, but far more often people will respond to your support with grateful generosity.


That may be Still_Crazy's philosophy but it is not Dr Harley's. His view (which I wholeheartedly share) is that we should look for people that meet our needs naturally and easily. You absolutely should wait until you are getting something out of a relationship before you invest in it.

Reciprocity is poison because it carries a payload of 'I sacrifice for you and then you will have to sacrifice for me'.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I would like to make this post on my views about my children and being married.

My eldest DD is 27 and has cried to me about the fact that she is so ready to get married and have kids however she FORTUNATELY has not; since she has not found the right guy (until maybe this time) I am so happy that she has never just got married for the sake of being married.

I want to point out that no one will be the "right guy" if she ruins her relationships by shacking up. This relationship might have worked out if she didn't do that. That is what your DD needs to learn. As her parent, I hope you teach her that and give her some guidance in her life. Getting married to get married is not the goal, but shacking up for the sake of shacking up only prevents her from finding the right guy.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I would like to make this post on my views about my children and being married.

My eldest DD is 27 and has cried to me about the fact that she is so ready to get married and have kids however she FORTUNATELY has not; since she has not found the right guy (until maybe this time) I am so happy that she has never just got married for the sake of being married.

I want to point out that no one will be the "right guy" if she ruins her relationships by shacking up. This relationship might have worked out if she didn't do that. That is what your DD needs to learn. As her parent, I hope you teach her that and give her some guidance in her life. Getting married to get married is not the goal, but shacking up for the sake of shacking up only prevents her from finding the right guy.

This DD didn't shack up, it is the other DD who did.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
[

This DD didn't shack up, it is the other DD who did.

Gotcha. Does this one know better?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 03:36 PM
Yes I have stressed it to all of them but the youngest DD does as she pleases regardless of the consequences it seems.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Reciprocity is poison because it carries a payload of 'I sacrifice for you and then you will have to sacrifice for me'.

I have never felt that way in my life.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
When are you emailing Dr. Harley?
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by living_well
Reciprocity is poison because it carries a payload of 'I sacrifice for you and then you will have to sacrifice for me'.

I have never felt that way in my life.


So why did you write this?

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
When you serve on the front end, you unlock the benefits of reciprocity. Occasionally others will take advantage of your goodwill, but far more often people will respond to your support with grateful generosity.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
When are you emailing Dr. Harley?

I am not sure that I am, it took several pages to try to explain here.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by living_well
Reciprocity is poison because it carries a payload of 'I sacrifice for you and then you will have to sacrifice for me'.

I have never felt that way in my life.


So why did you write this?

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
When you serve on the front end, you unlock the benefits of reciprocity. Occasionally others will take advantage of your goodwill, but far more often people will respond to your support with grateful generosity.

First off I didn't write it, it is a quote.

And I disagree with your statement about Reciprocity is why I wrote it, I have never felt 'I sacrifice for you and then you will have to sacrifice for me'., I do not expect ANYTHING in return.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/17/14 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
When are you emailing Dr. Harley?

I am not sure that I am, it took several pages to try to explain here.
That's too bad that you won't even try to get the best advice out there.

I'm sure you can condense it and explain it to Dr. Harley, if you really wanted a plan to do something.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/20/14 01:03 PM
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape!
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/21/14 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
When are you emailing Dr. Harley?

I am not sure that I am, it took several pages to try to explain here.
That's too bad that you won't even try to get the best advice out there.

I'm sure you can condense it and explain it to Dr. Harley, if you really wanted a plan to do something.

I took your suggestion and did a condensed version
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/21/14 03:14 PM
Great, let us know what you hear back.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/26/14 01:03 PM
When leaders put their family first, their spirit prospers and their community benefits. When leaders put their community first, their family, community and personal well being all suffer. The most lasting legacy you can leave is the one you build at home. Success in life comes when those who know you best, love and respect you the most.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 11/26/14 05:05 PM
Have you heard back from the Harleys?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 11/26/14 06:08 PM
Not yet
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/02/14 01:26 PM
If we avoid being judgmental our personal peace will increase.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/02/14 02:14 PM
Well the other guy has been hanging out a lot more at the house and my DD is now �hung up� on him and he doesn�t know if he wants to be with her or not and she told me yesterday that she misses her exBF already.

Her attitude has improved slightly except when she gets upset about the other guy not showing enough attention to her (what she thinks is enough attention which is all of his attention she does not like it when we turn on the TV when he is there because he watches it instead of paying attention to her she would rather have the radio on) then she gets nasty with everyone and you can�t even talk to her without her biting your head off.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 12/02/14 02:56 PM
If you have still not heard back from Dr Harley, send a reminder, they may have mislaid your question. No sense in just blogging.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/04/14 01:49 PM
So I get home from work last night and the exBF is at the house. I wondered why but I know my DD kept their dog so I thought maybe he had come by to see the dog (he has done that two other times since he left) and check if he left anything else behind.

So I say hello and my DD said she called him and invited over to hang out, I thought WTH, but did not say anything and went about my business. Well I�ll be darned if before the exBF left the new guy shows up too.

So now I�m am thinking (I don�t know for sure) that because the new guy doesn�t like her enough to date her that she is going to try to make him jealous with the exBF or she is being self-centered again and wants to have the exBF on the back burner in case this doesn�t go where she wants it to with the new guy. To me that is so unfair of her to do, she is really leading both of them on
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/04/14 02:49 PM
I forgot she also has yet to finish helping the exBF go through their stuff in storage so they still have that bill.

She also still has a card to their shared bank account and she checks out his balance and uses the card and tells him she owes him money instead of just going and opening herself a new account.

And the poor dog has basically became mine and my husband�s because the only thing she is doing is feeding him, she is too worried about the other guy to do anything so that is why I was so shocked to see the exBF there last night, it is just too weird.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/04/14 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
If you have still not heard back from Dr Harley, send a reminder, they may have mislaid your question. No sense in just blogging.

Done
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/09/14 01:04 PM
There are two kinds of people; the givers and the takers. The takers may sometimes eat better, but the givers always sleep better.

Danny Thomas
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/10/14 03:03 PM
Somehow, not only for Christmas but all the long year through, the joy we give to others is the joy that comes back to us.

. . . . . . John Greenleaf Whittier, poet
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
There are two kinds of people; the givers and the takers. The takers may sometimes eat better, but the givers always sleep better.

Danny Thomas




This really sums up how just listening to just the giver or just the taker doesn't work at all.

After all we need to both eat and sleep. It isn't an either/or choice!

So if we listen to both, we can have both.

The only problem I have with Mr Thomas' very astute metaphor (taking takes care of one type of need, giving takes care of another) is that he seems to think you have to decide which 'side' you are on.

This is a bit like people who don't poja. They never discuss, or consider taking care of ALL or BOTH needs - they turn it into a me/you choice as though one person must be loser.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 08:38 PM
Have you heard back from Dr Harley?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you heard back from Dr Harley?

No, I have a feeling I am not going to, he is to busy saving marriages and that is fine
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you heard back from Dr Harley?

No, I have a feeling I am not going to, he is to busy saving marriages and that is fine
But you sent the email, correct?

Dr. Harley answers many questions that aren't just related to marriages. Sometimes emails go to their spam. Notify the MODS so they can let Dr Harley know.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 09:27 PM
Yes I sent it twice.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Yes I sent it twice.
So notify the MODS.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: motherly advice - 12/11/14 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Yes I sent it twice.

They already answered your email on the air. What did you think of the response?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/12/14 06:39 PM
Unfortunately I missed it
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/17/14 02:17 PM
I will have to go back and try to find it after the holidays.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/17/14 02:24 PM
So anyway the new guy suddenly posted on Facebook that he is in a long distance relationship with a girl from the state he moved from and my DD got so mad it was ridiculous.

I don�t know and she may be a lot of things but she is not a liar and she said that he had been telling her that they could work towards being more than friends and then all of the sudden she saw this post and went a little crazy on him.

She blocked him from all social media and all of her friends have posted nasty messages to him on all social media, some of them opened accounts just to do that, I feel like she is in High School again but I am actually glad things did not work out with this guy.

I kept telling her she needed to date around anyway and she was worried about meeting guys, well heck because of social media everyone knows she is single now and the guys have been contacting her so she has been dating and I am glad.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 12/17/14 03:36 PM
Has she ever been married?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/17/14 06:03 PM
No
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 12/17/14 06:35 PM
I think this might be the day it was on. This is the whole show and it might be the last segment. Please tell us if it is.

Radio Clip of 12-09-14's Show
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/17/14 11:06 PM
Yes that was mine. I did not get to finish listening to it but I will finish it. I should have explained more to them and I do not know why they were saying divorced daughter.

I did notice he said not to make her leave though so at least my thought for that was ok.

I will post more when I can finish listening to the end of what was said.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Yes that was mine. I did not get to finish listening to it but I will finish it. I should have explained more to them and I do not know why they were saying divorced daughter.

I did notice he said not to make her leave though so at least my thought for that was ok.

I will post more when I can finish listening to the end of what was said.
Here's just your segment.
Radio Clip of Still_Crazy's Question
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 05:55 PM
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."
- Winston Churchill
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 06:16 PM
Wow that's another really excellent quote. I'm half minded to steal that one for my signature as it sums up MB values perfectly.

You seem happier about things, I'm glad.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Wow that's another really excellent quote. I'm half minded to steal that one for my signature as it sums up MB values perfectly.

You seem happier about things, I'm glad.

That's funny because I keep posting quotes about being a giver because I catch so much grief for it but all of these quotes are how I think about giving.

I don�t know if happier is the right word because I wasn�t sad before but things are definitely a lot less stressful and tense with the exBF gone from the house and I actually like that the other guy is not hanging out either.
Posted By: living_well Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
That's funny because I keep posting quotes about being a giver because I catch so much grief for it but all of these quotes are how I think about giving.


I listened to your segment and loved what Dr Harley said about being selfish. He said that being selfish is fine as long as it does not negatively impact others. By way of example, he said that marrying Joyce was the most selfish thing he could have done; he did it so that he could have her all to himself.

Did that reassure you about your daughter?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 07:58 PM
I would rather wait until I listen to the rest of it this evening.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 12/18/14 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Wow that's another really excellent quote. I'm half minded to steal that one for my signature as it sums up MB values perfectly.

You seem happier about things, I'm glad.

That's funny because I keep posting quotes about being a giver because I catch so much grief for it but all of these quotes are how I think about giving.
.


The quote talks about the importance of both! It's very, very good indeed to be a giver. Taking is the basic requirement of looking after ourselves or 'earning a living' (before we can look after others) but obviously the next step is to give and share. MB does support giving so long as it's not harmful to the self. A bit like spending money on art but only once you've paid the rent. I thought your quote summed up that beautifully.

I'm really glad things are settling for you.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/19/14 01:29 AM
Well I just finished listening and oh my goodness, it was really my fault for not explaining better, however once they figured it out it was perfect a advice.

I did not think that I needed to throw her out but she has to figure it out on her own. I will get what book did he suggest, I think his needs her needs, I will have to listen again crazy for her. I will take any help I can get.

Thanks for pushing me to ask. smile
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/19/14 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Wow that's another really excellent quote. I'm half minded to steal that one for my signature as it sums up MB values perfectly.

You seem happier about things, I'm glad.

That's funny because I keep posting quotes about being a giver because I catch so much grief for it but all of these quotes are how I think about giving.
.


The quote talks about the importance of both! It's very, very good indeed to be a giver. Taking is the basic requirement of looking after ourselves or 'earning a living' (before we can look after others) but obviously the next step is to give and share. MB does support giving so long as it's not harmful to the self. A bit like spending money on art but only once you've paid the rent. I thought your quote summed up that beautifully.

I'm really glad things are settling for you.

When I say that I am all giver that is my feeling so I get quotes every day in e-mail and the ones that seem fitting I have been posting.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 12/31/14 01:03 PM
happynewyr
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/05/15 04:17 PM
My goodness, I can finally say that she is doing something positive. She is now taking anti-depressants and I can tell a difference in her attitude.

Maybe she will come around eventually.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/06/15 01:01 PM
We need to be willing to give ourselves, and there will be new life for us in this New Year and in every year. If we give our joy to others, it will come back to us.


. . . . Norman Vincent Peale
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/16/15 02:20 PM
A chief cause of worry and unhappiness in life is trading what we want most for what we want at the moment.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: motherly advice - 01/16/15 03:14 PM
I so agree with the last one.

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
We need to be willing to give ourselves, and there will be new life for us in this New Year and in every year. If we give our joy to others, it will come back to us.


. . . . Norman Vincent Peale


That applies itself so well to Dr Hs advice on being a cheerful giver don't you think?

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/16/15 05:45 PM
Yes I agree

The one I posted today kind of reminds me of an A in a way.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 01:41 PM
Our happiness depends not on what happens to us, but what happens in us. In other words, it�s the way we choose to think about our lives. Abe Lincoln said, �People are generally about as happy as they�re willing to be.� A proverb tells us that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.
So, what are the most common attributes of happy people? Well, it�s not money, fame, or good looks. It�s not even intelligence or talent. No, the two most important factors are gratitude and rewarding personal relationships.
The formula is simple: count your blessings and enjoy your family and friends.
Sadly, simple is not always easy.
People whose natural instincts produce a gloomy outlook and pessimism need to re-train their minds. It�s one thing to say happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you get; it�s quite another to really be satisfied with what we have.
For many people, it takes discipline and practice to think positively.
Sometimes it�s just a matter of changing ones� perspective, choosing to see and appreciate the silver lining, the half full glass. In other cases, what�s required is refusing to dwell on pain, disappointment, or envy, and instead force one�s mind toward good thoughts, including all the things for which we should be grateful.
Interestingly, the ability to maintain a positive attitude is also important in forming and sustaining meaningful relationships�seeing and bringing out the best.
. . . M. Josephson
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Our happiness depends not on what happens to us, but what happens in us. In other words, it�s the way we choose to think about our lives. Abe Lincoln said, �People are generally about as happy as they�re willing to be.� A proverb tells us that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.
So, what are the most common attributes of happy people? Well, it�s not money, fame, or good looks. It�s not even intelligence or talent. No, the two most important factors are gratitude and rewarding personal relationships.
The formula is simple: count your blessings and enjoy your family and friends.
Sadly, simple is not always easy.
People whose natural instincts produce a gloomy outlook and pessimism need to re-train their minds. It�s one thing to say happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you get; it�s quite another to really be satisfied with what we have.
For many people, it takes discipline and practice to think positively.
Sometimes it�s just a matter of changing ones� perspective, choosing to see and appreciate the silver lining, the half full glass. In other cases, what�s required is refusing to dwell on pain, disappointment, or envy, and instead force one�s mind toward good thoughts, including all the things for which we should be grateful.
Interestingly, the ability to maintain a positive attitude is also important in forming and sustaining meaningful relationships�seeing and bringing out the best.
. . . M. Josephson

What detrimental advice to give on a marriage board full of hurting, suffering marriages. That is about as far from what MB teaches as you can get.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
What detrimental advice to give on a marriage board full of hurting, suffering marriages. That is about as far from what MB teaches as you can get.

Wow you really must not like me because first of all it is not advice, as you can see it has a person's name so it is a quote and secondly I don't know how you think it is about as from from MB as you can get.

I think MB tells you that you have to move forward no matter what and for say those people who did not fix their marriage but are moving forward on their own this is a very good quote for them.

Don't look at what you lost because it might not have been that good to begin with but look at what you gained, your self respect. And look at other things that you are thankful for and to help keep you going, do not dwell on the bad things. Heck that is good for anyone wanting to save their marriage as well.

The bad things happened and you have to not dwell on them, not necessarily all at one time, heck it took me about three years to feel better after my H's A but dwelling on the bad and being mad did no good for me and it will do no good for anyone else.

And it is in "other topics" as well
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 03:44 PM
Quote
Wow you really must not like me because first of all it is not advice, as you can see it has a person's name so it is a quote
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Quote
secondly I don't know how you think it is about as from from MB as you can get.
I know you don't. You have, as of yet, refused to learn what MB teaches about the giver and taker. Instead, you spend your time posting marriage-damaging advice (excuse me, I mean "quotes"), and seeking validation for your non-MB view of the giver.

I have no hope of changing your mind. I am merely pointing out to any newbie that happens across this thread that MB does not teach what you are posting, and that what you are posting is, in fact, damaging to marriages.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Wow you really must not like me because first of all it is not advice, as you can see it has a person's name so it is a quote
Six of one, half a dozen of the other..

Not at all, in my opinion a quote is by no means advice in any way nor did I ever state that it was advice and I believe most people are smart enough to know when someone's name is at the bottom it is a quote and I think it is a DJ for you to assume that others are taking my quotes as advice


Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
secondly I don't know how you think it is about as from from MB as you can get.
I know you don't. You have, as of yet, refused to learn what MB teaches about the giver and taker. Instead, you spend your time posting marriage-damaging advice (excuse me, I mean "quotes"), and seeking validation for your non-MB view of the giver.

I have no hope of changing your mind. I am merely pointing out to any newbie that happens across this thread that MB does not teach what you are posting, and that what you are posting is, in fact, damaging to marriages.

And if it so damaging to marriages why have I been married for 30 years. And I am not seeking advice any longer, I got my advice from Dr. Harley which was very much against your advice and he and I were e-mailing back and forth for a while regarding my situation.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Not at all, in my opinion a quote is by no means advice in any way nor did I ever state that it was advice and I believe most people are smart enough to know when someone's name is at the bottom it is a quote and I think it is a DJ for you to assume that others are taking my quotes as advice
Surely the "quote" is simply the author's advice. When he says what is written here, he is advising the general reader about how to be happy. How can the quote NOT be advice?

I agree that by your quoting it, you are not necessarily endorsing it. You are not necessarily offering it as advice you agree with. You might be offering it as advice that you disagree with. It would be helpful if you could point out the purpose of re-quoting the quote, otherwise many other people will make the same assumption that Prisca did. I certainly made that assumption.

The advice/quote is diametrically opposed to what Dr Harley advises, because Dr H does not encourage us to be happy with what we have got. He does not encourage us to appreciate the good while we put the bad out of mind. Trying to do that is what leads to long-term unhappiness, withdrawal as a state of mind, and sometimes, affairs. The problem is that we cannot ignore, or change, or reconfigure our emotional needs. The needs that we have, that make us feel love for our spouses when they are met, just are.

If a wife focuses on, for example, the fact that her husband is a good father and a good provider, while trying to suppress her unhappiness that he is not affectionate and does not talk much and prefers to stay at home watching TV to going out on dates, she is likely to end up feeling very lonely and unhappy. She might never have an affair (please God), but she might well find herself living with low-grade depression and eventually just giving up on the marriage. Her emotional needs will not go away just by focusing on other things, and that isn't what MB requires us to do - not in the least.

Instead, MB encourages us to communicate our needs, and to complain when needs are not met, or LBs are present. If the issue is not dealt with satisfactorily, Dr Harley encourages us to keep it on the front burner, to brainstorm with abandon and not keep going until mutually satisfying solutions are found.

That advice/quote says the polar opposite of what Dr Harley suggests, and as with many quotes on this thread, I don't understand why you are posting them here. If you don't want to encourage a discussion of the points, why are you posting them?
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 05:07 PM
Quote
And I am not seeking advice any longer

I know.

However, if you continue to post non-MB QUOTES on this thread, I will continue to point them out as such. My posts on this thread are not for you.

Perhaps you should start a blog for your QUOTES, if you do not want them questioned or debated.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Not at all, in my opinion a quote is by no means advice in any way nor did I ever state that it was advice and I believe most people are smart enough to know when someone's name is at the bottom it is a quote and I think it is a DJ for you to assume that others are taking my quotes as advice
The thread is entitled "motherly advice", after all.
Posted By: Prisca Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 05:09 PM
Quote
and I think it is a DJ for you to assume that others are taking my quotes as advice
It's common sense. It's not my fault if you have none of that.

Whatever the case, I don't care if you see it as a DJ. I'm not trying in the least bit to fill your lovebank. My goal here is to protect newbies in hurting marriages -- if that hurts your feelings, so be it. If you got a problem with that, contact the mods.

Posted By: PhoenixMB Re: motherly advice - 01/20/15 05:29 PM
This is not a platform for blogging. Since there is not a question being asked of posters, we are going to lock this thread. Thank you.
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