Maybe some men can help me understand the male thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Before we was married we had good frequent sex... after marriage it dropped off significantly and then I discovered porn usage, eventually sex very infrequently and more porn and the affair and divorce.

It has made me question what I could have doen differntly, or my choices and I wonder how to avoid this again.

I always felt like an anomoly that I wanted more and I did not know how to ask for it correctly. But I also felt like he used porn as an easy out without the emotional connection or effort to be with me. I don't know if he had hangups regaurding marriage, or sex or both. or if he just did not find me attractive after marriage.

Any brave man want to jump in with a male POV?

OMG that is exactly what I was talking about in my post. So it is not just me!!!!! Lora we are to be married in two months. I have been contemplating calling off the wedding becuase of this very same problem. I caught him a few months ago and I let it go didn't say nothing to him. Then (stupid him) I had hip surgery done on April 12th then it got bad. I slept on the sofa and at like 2 in the am would hear the clicking of the mouse over and over again peeked up in the glass and thought I would fall off the sofa. I always suspected but caught him now. Kindly I waited till he was done (I didn't want to totally embarrass him) but then I asked him when he got up you done now. I offered to join him but that hasn't happened. Now since the confrontation we have not been intimate all but one time. Two months before our wedding. Maybe he should take the computer on the honeymoon with him and leave me home. I feel so not wanted to tell the truth that is the reason I came back to MB.

The problem IMO is one of discernment in the pre-marital phase. It is the buyer/renter/freeloader concept harley suggests...which really just means "intent". Has little to do with gender, unworthy marital prospects of both genders "reneg" when they "gotcha". The problem is this....right or wrong, humans instinctively pursue each other...ok, so that's why most of us prefer a relationship over being this happy, well-adjusted, competent, fun-loving blah blah blah SINGLE. Having it all...but by yourself sucks, is meaningless for the most part emotionally. So we "pursue" and let ourselves be "pursued" seeking to fill that hole in our lives. Some want to fill the hole honorably, not only get their needs met, but motivated to meet yours too...others are not so honorable, they just want "you", as cheaply as possible, but they know they have to "pursue" successfully....

It seems backward in your case that since you provided good sex pre-maritaly (a poor way to secure a good mate), you ASSUMED this was an indicator of compatibility and worthiness as a mate....because hey, he is a male, they are all about SF right? Well, yeah in general, but it is more complicated than that, and making decisions on generalities is bad decision making. In your case lora, he likes sex but he prefers it on his terms, in this case porn, and you when he feels like it. The man had serious character defects which you completely overlooked, and which were probably apparent before you married, thinking the sex meant was a good match. Partly that is because you are female, and females "generally" don't have sex unless there is a substantial perception of "relationship" in place, or likely. Even when a woman is well aware of this, it is still hard for her to realize a male is much more likely to "use" her, than vice versa. So Lora, the man used sex to pursue you, and it worked. I wonder though how well he met your other needs pre-maritally....did you feel cherished and nurtured? Or did you adjust and make excuses? That is where you find truth (for both genders) by closely observing dispassionately a prospective mates behaviors...givers have a hard hard time with this, cause they are so programmed to make excuses for recieveing "less" than they give, that may be a factor for you too.

In any event, the problem is not the male, or why males do this, and how to tell...both of you just picked losers... maybe they could be rehabilitated maybe not (usually not), cause it isn't the porn so much, as it is who they are inside. The problem is YOU and how you select males. Figure that out, and you will be much less likely to err. and fall prey to an unworthy, but cunning pursuer. Some people are sooooo good at pursuing, it is hard to unmask them, but you can, look hard at how and why they do what they do, and how they meet your needs, and the truth will be revealed. But one piece of advice, the single biggest mistake (meaning the greatest predictor of marital failure), is pre-marital sex. You find out far more about a person and their worthiness as a marital partner, by not having sex with them while building a relationship, than if you do.

Knight
I understand what you are saying to a point. In some ways I do agree with the premarital sex issue but, I'd rather find this out now before we wed. He is a wonderful man don't get me wrong but, I just don't feel wanted, I know I'm needed but not wanted in that way and that is bothersome. I know we are both under stress right now financially and mentally due to my surgery and the strain it has put on the whole family but I don't see the need for him to do this on a almost daily basis. I don't see him as a loser. It is just that aspect of what he is doing.

The assumption is flawed dewey, you find out nothing of value with pre-marital sex (otherwise I would agree with you)..although you can find out someone is unworthy, you can (and should)figure that out without the sex...Is not that difficult, unoworthy people reveal that in many ways, including that they will be inadequate lovers. One can establish physical compatibility by other means directly, and by frank discussions (of sexuality and expectations) when marriage is contemplated (but not before). If you choose wisely, you will not be disappointed...if you go for a testride, you reduce the likelihood of marital success (a statistical fact, just like wearing seatbelts increases the likelihood of a safer life...even though a given person may never have needed the seatbelt). People who are inadequate lovers reveal this in many ways, you don't need a testride. Depending on how you assess the inadequacy, you can either deal with it, or move on...but should be after married...that is the more successful enviroment to resolve that (and other issues as well, cause every marriage should be entered realizing there is gonna be conflict, and better yet, having some idea of what that conflict will be, but choosing to marry because on whole, you are a good match).

Your efforts to make this about stress are most likely denial, if someone wants you the right way AND they are emtionally/psychologically healthy, you can tell the difference. Sorry if loser offended you, just kinda "taker" talk, and one should let the taker play a large role in decideing to marry....the giver's role is better expressed after marriage...is a survival thing dewey. Trust your instincts, they are probably right as long as YOU are emotionally healthy...if not, fix that (before you make a marital decision). It is tough when someone fits us well, especially if we have a dismal relationship history, but they may not fit well enuf...and then you realize you need someone that fits even better, and you move on...only you can decide where to set the bar. But I will say this, the world is littered with broken and/or barren marital relationships, cause one set the bar too low, and did not trust their instincts. There will be many many more people you like alot, and feel good with, but should not marry, than there will be actual marital fits...remember that.

One second ladies and I'll add something about your question...

Knight...buddy...pal...Lighten up a bit.

So all men that look at a Playboy are "losers"? Man there is worse stuff on Jerry Springer everyday! That isn't the point though, the world isn't as black and white as you'd like it to be and frankly I feel like we are being lectured too.

You are entitled to your opinion of course but to label everyman a "loser" that looks at a picture of a naked woman is really a bit over the top.

I'm a libertarian so maybe that skews my view a bit but here is how I see porn. Personally I'm not into it, don't get the point of it when I can go to the beach and look at all the lovely ladies there. In person! Porn wouldn't be a problem in there relationships if they liked it or used it as well. Since they don't they find it offensive that there S or soon to be spouse would feel the need for it.

Thats OK too, since they do find it offensive then their SO shouldn't be using it but both need to make that clear to the SO. It doesn't make them "losers", but it does make them insulting, short-sighted, and lacking some serious respect for there partner.
______________________________________________________________

For you ladies, if you are opposed to their viewing porn you need to make it clear that you do, that it isn't a part of your world, and don't want it to be. You find it disrespectful and hurtful. Why they are doing it I don't know, I'm not into it, but may I suggest from other friends of mine that DO look at porn why they do so?

Boredom.

Yep, you heard it, boredom.

If your usual bedtime play is more like a waltz than interpretive dancing, boredom.

Yeah, the waltz is a wonderful dance, fun to participate in but it is still the same old steps over and over.

Step, 2, 3...Step, 2, 3...boring after awhile.

While interpretive dancing is emotion filled with no set routine or order to it.

Step, slide, jump....slide, slide, step....ahhh much more interesting to watch and be a part of.

I'm not saying you have to be an acrobat, or some superhuman, just mix it up a bit.

Waltz tonight, Tango tomorrow, Interpretive Dance the next day and then 2 more waltz's..

Mix it up, I think it's the key, I do and that probably has more to do with not viewing porn than any moral reason I can come up with. I'm not bored so I don't need outside stimulation.

The first breakjob I did on a car was pretty cool, I learned a lot and was real proud of myself. I was still feeling pretty good about the 20th and 30th ones. By the 200-300th ones it was routine and pretty boring, work that just "had to be done"...

Make sense?

Hope so, not saying that it is the answer in your cases just something to ponder and discuss with your SO. Don't ask if they'd like to do something a little different, they'll say no so as not to hurt your feelings, just do something different and see what happens.

RebornMan

[color:"blue"]
Huh. Well Harley writes about this and generally men that are likely to use porn rather than enjoy SF with their wives do it because it is easier. The man doesn't have to interact with or socialize with or please or even get out of breath for a porn picture.
(Not saying that some of you ladies don't enjoy getting out of breath, but you know what I mean - sex can be work. Work to arouse your partner, work to ensure your partner is also enjoying themselves...

Lora (and the woman getting married soon)
Porn watchers are usually addicts. They get addicted to the porn and the sad thing is that all those unhealthy behaviors that addicts (all addicts) have are there, maybe just disguised. I was in the same boat before. My first husband didn't want me, and when I came home early one day I caught him in the bathroom reading a fishing magazine and enjoying himself.
You didn't do anything to "make" your ex the way he was. You may however choose the wrong men like knight said because of your own codependency habits.

This is a list of some things that codependents do:

here

Check it out

Sunny[/color]

no I will not lighten up reborn, mind your own business, promote your ideas about dating, and I will promote mine...thx for your cooperation. Sex is not about fun and games, or getting an itch scratched, it is a serious business. However, feel free, as you did (and do) to voice your own opinions or even refute mine...just don't make it personal and we will get along just fine..capish?

btw..I don't mind if you characterize my opinions in some unflattering way, as long as it isn't personal attack, or telling me what I can and cannot think or talk about.... I have avoided commenting directly to you cause you clearly lead your life, and have values, I find repugnant, as well as ill-advised/unhealthy...I suggest you do the same with me rather than start analyzing each other.

The problem is I don't beleive in using people, and sex without strings is an oxymoron IMO (not to mention no competent psychologist thinks otherwise either). You are either building a relationship, or using someone (regardless of whether they are agreeable or not, is unhealthy), I think using people is a bad life strategy. You obviously disagree, so no point in my trying to persuade you otherwise, you seem unreceptive to change...and I can assure you, I won't change either, my positions have been hard earned (and unfortuneately experienced as well), and I fully believe in them, and conduct my life accordingly...and I don't much care if that annoys you.

Is this really about Men and Sex -- or Men and Porn?

(And by the way Reborn, porn gets boring too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm really curious about the frequency comments. I've never had a problem with this because I am most often the aggressor. Men do not refuse sex. Are you waiting for them to approach you? How does it become infrequent?

Are they viewing porn thereby satisfying their need and then not approaching you? What happens if you get to them first?

Lexxy,
I have always been fairly aggressive in that regard. My first husband would just say not tonight if I asked or if I woke him up in the middle of the night he'd swear and say geesh I gotta get up in the morning.
My second husband I picked someone less passive in that area thinking that #1 was just low libido. Well #2 was more of a typical guy, but you can't neglect the relationship and then demand sex - which is what he did. He would tell me I'd gotten fat (post baby weight gone as soon as I started exercising again), he would threaten me that he would get a gf, he would wake me up in the middle of the night already in the act with no preparation. #3 hubby was another very selfish man - all of them were - I swear sometimes he would stop on purpose just when it was getting interesting.
Anyhow - men do say no. Some men anyway. And knight is right - it really does no good to test drive really because even if they are very selfish they make sure that you don't find out until you are committed to the relationship. And commitment occurs a lot sooner when you test drive - I think personally that it is impossible to test drive and not develop feelings for the person that you are test driving. Makes the whole situation so much more complex - you can't look dispassionately on someone and judge their worth if you are all knotted up with feelings.

sunny

ok, there have been many aspects of this. I don't want to see this get into a tug of war of who is right and who is wrong.

Lexxxy to answer you I do approach him but he says he is tired. By that he then wakes up at 2 in the am to get satisfied. Porn does not bother me I already suggested we do it together. (not my first choice) but I am open and willing to talk about it and explore with him. He chooses not to. Will that change after marriage?

Knight I do see your point but we have engaged in premarital so this needs to be addressed. MY BAD. I do believe in living with someone before marriage after my divorce. If I would have done that in the first placed I would have known he was an abuser.

Rebornman I also see your side of it. But the key here is being honest to the whole thing. If you are going to do it don't sneek to do it (unless that is where the arousal comes in at) We always had a good sexual relationship I didn't think it was boring in fact we both thought (or so I thought) was the complete opposite.

And no I do not think humans men and women alike are not losers for looking at porn it is how you go about it and in what context you take it, and how it affects your relationship and your well being.

ok, let's leave the loser (inflamatory rhetoric, I agree, me bad) out of it. The point is EVERYTHING we do enhances or detracts from our lives...our well-being. The effort is to discern the governing principles so we can apply them successfully (and those princilples are universal, none of us gets to choose which ones affect us, and which ones don't..life don't work that way, be nice if it did, but it don't). Sexuality is obviously a complex subject, but it does have principles, one being pre-marital intercourse is a greater risk factor for choosing a safe partner, then pre-marital celibacy. One either realizes that or not (and acts accordingly), but either way you will experience the consequences of your choice, right or wrong.

This has taken a sort of left turn into porn. That is a different issue, and has some complexity also, the biggest one being defining porn. There is (interesting) genetic research (has to do with the firing of mirror neurons) that suggests we are hard-wired to react favorably to "porn". The devil is in the details. Clearly choosing porn over a real person is in a sense like any other unhealthy manifestation of otherwise normal behavior. We have to eat, overeating, or eating poorly is bad. We need to have aggressive capacity, but rage is generally a bad "choice. We crave many things that could be lumped into "feeling good", but recognize addictions to drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex etc. Addictive people (porn or otherwise) are poor relationship choices...not cause of the particular addiction, but because they are addictive personalities...and such people are incapable of having healthy relationships, so you move on, or divorce them.

Back to porn, males enjoying the female form is ok, in fact a male who did not would be a poor relationship choice. But there are healthy and not healthy ways to do this (which are interesting, but not the point of this post). IMO "porn" as we typically think of it, is not ok. As an industry it is highly exploitative, and a blight on our society. Using porn as a adjunct to sex is a poor choice too IMO...BUT obtaining and using bonafide sexual information, manuals (including pictures or videos), and so forth is ok, and maybe even desireable. Most human beings have a positive (and healthy) reaction to awareness of other humans having sex, but how one goes about experienceing this awareness requires understanding a fairly complicated behavioral response, so as to experience it in a healthy way. This is the basis for the allure of porn, but in general porn has so many negative consequences it is best avoided, there are better alternatives.

Anyways, in your case dewey, and the case usually, males who use porn and neglect their wives needs are poor marital partners, unlikely to be rehabilitated unless happens quickly, and they clearly understand the need to change, and are motivated to do so...not for your sake, but for their own.

I can say porn did affect my relationship with my wife. I never used it as a substitute for my wife..we had sex frequently and it was good. She hated porn with a passion so I kept it hidden from her...it's use came and went. Here are where it caused me problems.

1) It was a secret kept from my wife. The secret kept me from being fully intimate with her.

2) I was married for 21 years, my wife while still the most beautiful person I know, has aged and with it her fears, not mine grew. When she found out it made her think she was no longer attractive to me...not true.

3) While I never fanatzised about another while having sex with my wife I'm sure images buried in my brain were trying to manipulate her into trying positions, acts, etc. that I had seen. The sex would have been better, and more enjoyable if we had shared our likes and dislikes eqitably.

4) I could have been more spiritual when making love to my wife. This is difficult to measure because when she said I wasn't spirituallly with her during sex....I had to ask what she was doing at the same time that made her half of the event better than my half (does that make sense?) Without Porn I would have seen her more as a person, my lover, my partner than a good rack, pretty face, etc.

Dewey, what constitutes a "wonderful" man for you?

I can tell you what it's NOT for me - it's NOT a man who will completely ignore A) my emotional need for SF OR B) disrespect me by turning down SF and then viewing porn online.

No matter what his other attributes are, this man would not be "wonderful" in my book.

I don't agree with the no sex before marriage thing, but that is a choice everyone must make on their own. But that's not what the issue is in your case, Dewey ... You are being given an amazing opportunity here to see what life will be like with this man as a husband. You asked if it will get better after marriage and I think everyone here would agree that the answer is a most emphatic NO. At least not under the current circumstances, and I wouldn't count on it even if the issue were to be acknowledged and work on it begun. Personally, I would want to see more than two months improvement in the situation before committing once again to marrying the guy.

Your gut is telling you that something is wrong and you are uneasy for a GOOD reason. Don't ignore your own instincts... postpone the wedding. Work on the problem BEFORE YOU GET MARRIED... much better to wait to get married than to rush forward ignoring the warning signs you've been given and wind up in divorce court again.

Please think about this.

Terri -- dead on.

Dewey -- SF is one of the 10 EN's. If your future husband is not doing a good job of meeting this need, and its an important one to you, you're headed for trouble.

I'd venture a guess that this issue is also making you feel undesired and unimportant.

This will not miraculously change after marriage - you know that Dewey. Your red flags are there for a reason.

We're not saying to dump him -- but use your MB skills to work on this. Do not get married feeling this way.

I agree with Terri. The time to deal with the issue is before marriage. His reaction when you suggest counseling will tell you much about the type of husband he will be. If he agrees this will indicate he is willing to change and adapt to your needs. If he refuses, then the problem will not be resolved and will cause a rift in the marriage at some point. You hope to be married for a lifetime...there is no need to rush in until the issue is resolved.

ummmmmmm WOW. I agree with what all is saying. I need to come to grips with this and deal with it. I am a CONFLICT avoider. You know hoping it will change itself. ( I know it doesnt happen).I have invested so much in our relationship. Our children for one. I have grown to be a better person. I'm sure I have added to this behavoir. I did have a life altering surgery done. I am not done with thearpy yet nor am I back to where I was, I was kinda hoping to see what happens when I am 100% again. But in the mean time, it doesn't make me feel good. I have gone on a crash diet becuase I did gain some unwanted weight.
I remember a movie we watched and he made a comment about Julia Roberts, he stated " not everyone can look as good as her" if he didn't look at other women I would be scared. So I asked him what would he do if I had a body like her he said" I'd be one tired man". I need to give this some time, all your comments are well taken. And most so true.
I do believe the wedding shall be held off, (scared to disappoint the parents thou).

Thank you all so much

I can't believe he said that. If such a response is typical of him then he is at best very insensitive.

The Red Alert bell is ringing loudly. Listen to it.

No need to take it personal, but you did.

Real personal.

I don't remember telling you what you could say, think or do, all I pointed out is the world isn't as black and white as you'd like it to be.

And the above is a perfect example of what I mentioned about being lectured.

So your advice is not to have personal attacks (which I did not participate in) yet you feel it is OK to call people loser's and me repugnant, cast aspersions...Am I missing something?

Repugnant- Arousing disgust or aversion; offensive or repulsive. Disgusting, loathsome, or repellent. Inspiring or deserving abhorrence or scorn. Causing aversion; disgusting.

I said not one thing negative about you, the way you live your life, or how you conduct yourself in your life.

I have sex with a dear friend of mine and my whole life is now invalid according to you. Two single people having sex means that It doesn't matter what else I do in my life?

THink about that for a second....I, as a single man, have sex with a single woman, and nothing else I do matters? My life is crap? Morally empty, a shell of a decent man.

So raising 4 kids alone, of which only 2 are mine by birth, doesn't matter? I'm repugnant.
Building 2 playgrounds for my city for free (3 weeks of my time and money) doesn't matter? I'm repugnant.
Coaching Youth Baseball, football, Basketball (for free) doesn't matter? I'm repugnant.
I'm a Den Dad and Girl Scout Troop leader but that doesn't matter? I'm repugnant.
I'm a Youth Counselor at camp..so what? I'm repugnant.
I put in about 10 hours a month at the HOPE Center teaching disabled kids computer skills. I do it for free and take my kids to interact with them. I'm crap.
I'm part of the D.A.R.E. Team in my community, doesn't matter, I had sex with a single woman.
I paid for and layed all the ceramic tile in the new wing at my Church, whatever
I am an unpaid consultant for our school board, Why? Because I donated my salary back to the district...who cares? I'm a scumbag.
Whenever a crappy or hard job comes up that nobody else wants to do, I get the call whether it be School, Sports, Recreation Department, DARE, Camp, Scouts... because I'll do it and get it done right....WHo Cares? I'm Repugnant remember?

Thats just a short list of how I live my life, repugnant isn't it. Sickening almost.

So go ahead and get up on your horse, cast aspersions, make baseless value judgements on others. No matter what I think of that I can promise you I won't be calling you repugnant, unhealthy, nor stupid.

Go read it again and tell me where I said anything to personally attack you. I believe all the attacking was just done on your part.

Capish?

RebornMan


I can't believe I left out this paragraph.
More baseless judgements.
More assumptions.
I don't believe in using people either as you assume. Your definition of "using" people boggles the mind with it's sinister overtones. We all use people everyday, you included mister. You use your boss for a paycheck, you use the waiter to get your meal, and on and on.

You use your partner to get your needs met.

But you want to imply something sinister in what I do, a calculated and dark motive to my actions because you don't agree. To say "I obviously disagree" that using people is a bad thing implies that I think it is a good idea to do so? Can you say disrespectful?

Unreceptive to change? You know that because....? The bottom line is you don't know that and it is just more baseless judgement on your part. You've no idea what I've been through, what I've done, or where I've come from. That hasn't stopped you from assuming, being disrespectful, judgemental, over something that wasn't even a disagreement with you. I can only imagine how you may treat folks tha truly say something that doesn't jibe with your theories or is truly offensive.

I find it rather funny as well that also any Psychologist that doesn't agree with you is incompetent. I think that is rather telling of your agenda and mindset, it really means anyone that doesn't agree with you is incompetent, repugnant, sick, stupid.

Knight, you are still assuming quite a bit here at the end of your paragraph. I don't really care how you conduct yourself in life, and good for you in all you do. We all have to have principles we are willing to live with and stick with. You found yours and bravo for you!

Why would you assume that it would annoy me? Your lifestyle doesn't "annoy" me in the least. Your choices in how you conduct your life don't annoy me at all. How you choose to live doesn't annoy me.

What "annoys" me is Self Rightous, Disrespectful, holier than thou, chest thumping, trigger happy lecturing and judgemental assumptions.

Wanna apologize and move along?

I will, I'll apologize for anything you thought I said.

RebornMan

Glad you all had a lively discussion while I was at work.

Had to print it out to respond and discuss, there are so many points.

First of all I did not really mean to have it be all about porn. I am not totally opposed to porn and realize that alot of people use it. It didn't bother me....until he started to hide it and prefer it over our sexual relationsip. I wonder though if porn does tend to lead to addiction to it and more and more explict use, perhaps more of a fantasy life then reality.

Dewy. I have to agree that your situation will not get better after marriage, only worse unless you are willing to overcome your conflict avoiding and he is willing to disscuss what he gets from this and why he is seeming to prefer it to intimacy with you. If you can not discuss it now, please think hard about marrying him.

Knight 50, I am not sure I agree with your premarital sex opinion. I am close to 50 years old and may never marry again. But I sure was exstatic that I was able have sex again.

I do agree with your post that I overlooked many ways that he did not meet my needs in other areas. And I was afraid no one would ever love me like that again. I know I married him for alot of reasons and they were not all healthy. I hope I have grown and resloved some childhood things since then.

Actually your answer reassured me about my current relationship, because I do feel we can talk about anything, he values me, finds me funny and I don't have to make excuses for how he makes me feel.

Reborn,
The funny thing was ... my X did not seem open to change ... I don't think it was only boredom.

Sunny,
A fishing magazine ... really? I think you are right about my choice with him, I am mostly looking for reassurace that I can choose differently or that not all men are the same I guess.

Lexxy, Actually men do apparntly refuse sex.. he used the I am too tired or stressed excuse. Plus after several rejections it gets hard to keep asking. Once I even cried, I shudder to remember it now... what a turn on huh?

Terri,
I agree with you as usual.

Thanks all for helping me clarify what I feel.

If this is how he behaves before you are married - when he is presumably trying to make a good impression - what will he do after the wedding?

Lora I am so sorry I think the thread got a little wayward. I do apologize. I must say this is a very opionated topic. I need to sit down with STBH and discuss this with him. I am not opposed to porn, I am opposed to hiding it from me, and not being itimate with me, or at least tell me why so it can be worked on and understood.
Surgery might have something to do with it but honesty plays a big part in this. Sharing feelings.

Thank you all

I also agree that men DO refuse sex. Our sex life started before we were married...something I no longer agree with and intend not to do should I ever be fortunate to find someone else. In our teens when we were dating, it was 2-3 times per week. We were drunk. He was into kinky things. That was that.

We got married. Things changed. The long road of his resentment toward me, his increasing addictions to booze and to harder and harder porn happened, and during the last few years of our marriage, we had SF anywhere from once every 3 months to as far between as once every 9 months.

I tried. I told him I needed it. I tried to get him in the mood during the evenings, with touch and the like. But he purposely avoided me. He would avoid showering after coming home from his job as an auto mechanic. He would stay up watching TV, refusing to come to bed, until the wee hours, or he'd play his PS2, and then he'd crash and you couldn't wake him.

Or I'd try to wake him, and he'd grumble about how he had to work, or he'd curse at me and turn over so flat on his stomach I couldn't touch anything.

Yet he'd lock himself in the bedroom for hours from time to time viewing his very gross, hard-core, foreign porn complete with animals. He tried to show it to me a couple times. It was repulsive, and made me feel like I was nothing to him.

We are now DV. Test-driving before marriage did nothing but harm. Yes, when we DID have SF, he was very talented physically. But that wasn't enough to save things. Porn was easier for him, required no emotional commitment, and was apparently more exciting than me.

Given a second chance, I would take my chances and hold out until marriage, and I would make sure porn wasn't a factor. I firmly believe that if two people truly love each other for the right reasons, and if they've both been honest about being physically able to function, that their sex life will be just fine. I don't believe they will be incompatable.

Honesty and trust and respect for one another are the keys in my opinion. Not making sure you are sexually compatable before marriage.

Knight. I agree with Reborn. You are making some personal attacks and lecturing on morality. Reborn said absolutely nothing about you personally.

This is a very sensitive subject, and I think we all need to exercise tolerance and respect.

Your views are very well substantiated and thought out. I'm glad it works for you. I know others here share your position.

I happen to share Reborn's views.

This is all subjective and this isn't final Jeopardy where you get the correct answer at the end. You can't make everyone share your beliefs no matter how srongly you state them.

btw, dewey, sunny, LL,
thanks for sharing your experiences. It must have been very frustrating and disappointing to deal with your partner choosing porn over intimacy.
I guess it really illustrates how important it is to enthusiastically meet each others needs.

<<<Former sex addict would like to jump in here. Porn is one of the insidious, alluring temptations that can grab boys/men and hold them for life. It grabbed me at the age of 10 and held me captive until 46. It creates fantasy and takes away all intimacy. It creates a world of escape from our spouses when we just don't feel like sharing our emotions. Some men hide their use of porn fairly well, but the problem is still there. I did for a long time.

So the question remains, how do I keep from repeating the mistake?

Actually, for those addicted to porn there is usually some addict/co-addict tie. The addict may have had a habit of pulling back from their emotions, that would be a clue. The addict may need a level of reassurance that is a greater need that others. The addict seems confident, but then wants to rely on the spouses opinion. There are little clues along the way and what happens is the co-addict's personallity matches right in to fill the addicts void. So look at the places where you found youself filling in for your ex and those may be clues what to what out for in the future.

My thoughts...yes Porn can be addicting and it will lower the level of intamacy with a spouse unless it is shared.

In my case, Porn was used as a release in a passive/aggresive way. It was an escape since she continued to spend more than we made. I would argue we should wait and ultimately give in...I did it time after time. Then I justified Porn as my treat since I had given her what she wanted. I could go months without viewing any but the lure was always there.

I never turned my wife down for sex, and often intiated it the right way. We would brush past each other some mornings, have a quick nibble on the neck at lunch, etc. building to romance that night. After 20 years we stll were going pretty strong. This is the odd thing....when I looked at a Victoria's Secret Catalog I saw my wife in the outfit...not the model. Same with Porn....it was me and her doing it. Porn made me want to have more sex with my wife...not less. Was it better sex....no not really. We didn't discuss our needs and wants enough...in other words we weren't intimate.

The end result was that it made me think of her more as an object than what she is....a wonderful mother, friend. As Art said above it was used as an escape from my emotions and dealing with real life.

Unfortunately I didn't see the effect until the divorce was finalized. I wish the counseling, self-help books and long lonely nights of meditation had come before the end.