This past weekend I was introduced to a man I found interesting. While talking I found he was educated, smart, interested in the world around him & not difficult to look at. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He's single never married, no children of his own but has a strong interest in kids & has relationships with his friends kids.

A couple of days later I was talking to the friend who introduced us & asked about this guy. I found out some disturbing things about his past behavior & want to get some feedback from y'all. Did I spell that right? I'm a New Englander. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Twenty years ago he was dating this introducing friend's friend. They weren't engaged. He "cheated" (I put quotes knowing some people think cheating only applies to a marriage or intended marriage situation) on her twice. My friend also claims he doesn't share a lot of personal information with her or their group of friends. She feels he may be as uncommunicative as ex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> An assertion I find VERY hard to believe. Even my shrink thinks ex is one in a million in terms of lack of communcation & intimacy skills. An example she gave was this: After I'd left for the evening my friend, her H & another couple asked him if he liked me, he answered "I wouldn't talk with someone I didn't like." This questions & other comments they made to him led me to believe he may have felt ganged up on here, just a guess.

Before I say more about my feelings I'd like feedback. Please ask any questions you'd like & I'll try to answer the best I can.

Er, well, that would be a red flag to me. To me, if they considered themselves "exclusive", then cheating is cheating. Granted it happened 20 years ago, but it would be red flag. Not necessarily a deal breaker at this point, but I'd proceed with utmost caution. You'd hate to be kicking yourself later for something you saw now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


I dunno, this doesn't bother me. It sounds like he may be a little reserved with his friends, so what? The important thing is how the conversation went with you, and it sounds like it went well, right?

So, why not see him again and get to talking? No need to decide yay or nay based on one meeting, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I have a difficult time with this one. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can say with complete honesty that I would hope someone would not judge me based on that one criterion alone. Yet at the same time, I would (like AGG said) proceed with caution.

I think the most important part to consider is what he's learned from it. Being that it was 20 years ago, he might have learned quite a bit. But then again, he might not have learned a thing.

I suppose I would just hate for someone to 'write me off' or judge me immediately because I had an A 3 years ago. Goes back to the age old debate of is "Once a cheater, always a cheater" true.


This doesn't frighten me either. Some people are naturally reserved and selective of who they open up to. I have many friends that will remain reserved to most everyone, but are very communicative to their spouse/significant others. What would matter here is how communicative is he with YOU?

nams, if you don't mind my asking (and you don't have to answer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) but how old is this man? Depending on his age, you might want to find out from him (with time) why he hasn't married. That could be a large indicator of his personality, and whether his past will predict his future.

See where it goes. But don't go full steam ahead. I think you're doing the right thing by looking at these issues....but don't let them get in the way of you simply getting to know him.

Reminds me of something my counselor always says to me...."The only thing I worry about you with is that you will stop a relationship before it even happens."

Dip your toe into the water, and see what it feels like. Just don't go diving head first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] AGG [/color] and [color:"blue"] LIT[/color] make really good points and I would agree with their reasoning.
You said:
However, this could be that he didn't want to verbalize his feelings in front of them, knowing that what he said would get back to you. Maybe he even felt put on the spot and ganged up on, if he was the lone guy with two couples...

I also would find out why he's never been married; there are many reasons - some more conclusive and with more importance than others. Perhaps your friends could answer that (or give their perspective). And yes, it's [color:"red"]y'all [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all for the comments.

AGG, yes, the cheating is definately a red flag as is the fact he's never married. I'll have to get to know him better before passing judgement. I wonder if the two are connected...

L.I.T., thanks for your perspective. I was hoping someone who had your dual experience would help out. At this point it's information. I don't know his side only my friend's. He certainly deserves a chance to explain what he feels happened from his perspective. Those will be interesting words to hear. D O W N the road if we even get that far.

The NMNK...wow that does come up a lot here. In general I don't want to date a man who has never married or not had kids. HOWEVER, what are his reasons? I have a NMNK girlfriend who had some very serious health issues in her late 20's through her late thirties. This, along with some FOO issues, prevented her from being in a position to find a partner.

This man, K, is about 45 my friend thinks. To be honest younger men frighten me. I'm 48 ex was 5 years younger. When looking online I tend to look for older men. I know this isn't reasonable so I do consider younger men but...

Hi avondale, K answering my friend's question about if he liked me this way didn't bother me either but my friend used it as an example of what she perceived as his inability or unwillingness to communicate. I thought of it as reserved, not wanting to have his thoughts broadcast about. I'm fairly certain these two couples would like to see their friend with a woman they like & may act pushy & nosey when they see someone they consider good partner material. He may just be protecting his privacy.

Considering the fact I've been thinking about him, know what I know & still would like to get to know him better I think I'll keep the red flags in mind but try to be fair & open.

My friend said she thinks he'd like to settle down but I don't know if this is her perception or he's alluded to that.

Move along to another, nams...lots of fish in the sea. You've got too many questions about this one...

Now of you were willing to forego the possibility fo a future with him, you might be able to have fun with him now...but he doesn't really sound like a "fun" guy.

He cheated on a girlfriend twenty years ago? You've almost got to be kidding me. You cannot possibly deduce how a person will behave today from a single piece of anecdotal evidence from 20 years ago. Has your friend remained friends with him throughout the years? If so, is this the only piece of negative evidence she can dig up on him? How did he treat his girlfriend from 20 days ago? 20 weeks ago? How old was he 20 years ago? 18? 38? There is such a gulf between today and twenty years ago that to put any stock into a single, isolated piece of information from that long ago is useless. Look at how he behaves now, in the present. After all, that's where you're going to be spending time with him, not in his really distant past.

It'd be interesting at some point to get around to the topic of the "cheating". Does he consider it cheating, or did he think of it more as them dating but not being exclusive. Let's face it, the mutual friend may have a different take on it than he does, although you would have no way to tell which is the real version. Certainly 20 years ago is a long time, and it probably is much more important what he is now than what he was then. Still, it's probably worth some probing, as to those of us who have been cheated on that is a very difficult trigger.

AGG

It would tell me the man wasn’t quite honest, wasn’t quite courageous 20 YEARS AGO when he was in his mid-twenties. As to his answer about liking you, that sounds like something M would say. It vague and tends to shut down nosey inquiries.

The "cheating" 20 years ago means he was in his mid twenties. I have to admit, I did some things I"m not proud of in my twenties, and I"ve learned from them. I certainly don't see this as a huge issue. That is a LONG time ago, adn they were only dating.

The other issues are not things I'd worry about that at this point either. It's all heresay, and second hand. I think, if you are interested in getting to know this guy more, then by all means get to know him more! You are the one to judge him, not others.

cm

Nams,

My biggest concern is this his own friend is not recommending him to you and the general tone seems to be one of caution/warning as opposed to approval & encouragement. (and this is from a friend of his, no less!)

So, even if this friend cannot think of concrete examples of why you shouldn't date the guy, or the friends gives examples of things that are old or that can be excused, the point is that this friend is NOT enthusiastic about this guy. Perhaps there aren't concrete, recent issues, but more of a general distaste about his ability to be a good relationship partner.

I say, listen to the lack of enthusiasm / approval/ encouragement from his friend -- that to me speaks volumes whether it is backed up by examples or not.

As LowOrbit said, there are plenty of fish in the sea, why bother with one whose own friends cannot give a glowing & enthusiastic recommendation?

Twice today I have lost my posts here. Anyone else?

That one was fine. The posts were rather lengthy. I wonder if I've been timed out? Anyone?

hasn't happened to me lately, but i have been timed out before.... maybe that is it... mlhb

Let's see if I can post & have it work.

AGG, I'd love to get into a conversation about cheating with him. One about the topic in general & one about his specific situation. Time, time.

Hey GG, thanks for you succinct take. I saw things much like you did.

never, interesting. I'm not sure I hear lack of enthusiasm as much as I hear her wanting to be sure things are out in the open. That I have some pertinent facts before I decide if I'm interested in getting to know K.

country mama, yeah my twenties were not exactly overflowing with noble moments. The fact is he interests me & I'd like to see him again. I'd love to go dancing with him. I need a good night out just cutting loose.

mikeb9, don't be shy, say what you mean! I wouldn't want to be judged on my behavior of over twenty years ago. However, this is good information to have to help me get an overall picture.

Low, funny you put your thoughts the way you did. I had a date Thursday night with a different man. Talking with him helped me clarify what I want from dating & who I want to be looking for.

Thursday's date is a widow of 4 years. He's not actively looking for a partner but if someone came along who made him feel the intensity of feelings he had for his wife he'd probably be open to having another partner.

I've come to the conclusion I'm looking for a relationship not just dating to be out there meeting people. Of course I know I have to be out there meeting people to find a person who may want what I want, but I don't want to date just to date & spend a nice evening with someone. If that's how dates work out that's fine, all part of the process.

so you are spouse hunting?

wiftty

I laughed when I read your post wiftty! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When I was writing the bit about wanting a relationship your phrase "spouse hunting" came to me.

No, I'm not spouse hunting. I would like a relationship. A continued invovment with one person. It doesn't have to be an intense everyday involvement headed toward marriage. I'm not sure I want that.

Here's what I know & what I want. I miss the male dynamic in my life. At some point I'd like to have a physical relationship with a man again. I'd like someone I can talk with & we can share ourselves with each other, companionship.

I won't have a casual physical relationship. Casual dates can't provide the kind of sharing or companionship I want. An ongoing series of dates can't provide what I want so it's a relationship I seek.

This future guy needs to have some qualities that would make him a good relationship partner but not necesarily ALL the qualities I would look for in a spouse.

nams,

realistically, you can't get to [color:"blue"]At some point I'd like to have a physical relationship with a man again. I'd like someone I can talk with & we can share ourselves with each other, companionship. [/color] without casual dating to find the type of person you want.

this unrealistic thinking gets people into trouble because they want their goal without a plan, without the groundwork necessary. . . to make a good selection. At our age, there aren't many good ones, and there are alot of not so good ones, so the odds are against you finding your next relationship without casual dating to find the right person. . .

you are spouse hunting without cupid's bow and arrow. . .

wiftty

wiftty,

[color:"purple"] [/color] I realize I have to date casually in order to find someone I'd like to be in a relationship with. However, my focusing on finding a man I'd like to have a relationship with forces me to narrow the field. Instead of simply finding a man who might be intersting & mostly compatable for dinner he needs to also be looking for a relationship VS looking for a fun night out period.

So, if I meet a man or read of one online who states he isn't looking for a relationship I would skip him. I'd not just be interested in a good date for the evening though that's where things must start. We would be in different places. Not wrong just not compatable at the moment.

I don't consider this unrealistic thinking or that I'm spouse hunting. Spouse hunting means I'm actively looking for a spouse, a man to marry. I didn't say I was looking for a spouse. A relationship in which we are exclusive, a must for me for a physical relationship, where we spend time together sharing ourselves & doing things we enjoy.

Certainly there are degrees of relationships between casually dating & marriage. Aren't you in one now?

the question is, will he come right out and say that he is looking for a relationship? or will he say that he is just looking for a casual date?

you are relying on his words that you want to hear, and I am saying, forget the words, and rely on his actions. . .

when I first met my girlfriend, first thing she said was that she did not have a place in her life for a BF or a relationship. . .

imagine that. . . and I agreed with her. . . we still don't, that is why we have been dating for five years now. . .

wiftty

wiffty, you're right that I'm relying on a man's words. If a man says to me I'm only looking for a fun night out & I if don't know him what else do I have to rely on?

If I go out with this man & his actions say otherwise than he doesn't know what he wants or has decided I'm worth some investment of time whether he was looking for a relationship or not.

My point is I'm unlikely to go out with a man who has stated he's not interested in a relationship. It seems a waste of time for me to pursue a man who says he's not interested or doesn't have time for a relationship & it's somewhat disrespectful of me to pursue him.

It's like a salesman who's been told no yet keeps on trying to sell you something. Perhaps he's had some sucess with the unwilling by badgering & forcing. I don't want to badger & force.

If I knew a man IRL who said all he wants to do is date yet his actions say otherwise I might pursue him if I had an interest. If I've never met him all I have is his words. Could be we both lose out.

Now, you & your GF...something about this arrangment must suit you both. You must have some kind of commitment, there's something keeping you together. Maybe it's the level of intimacy you both find comfortable. Not a spouse but perhaps a relationship built on attraction, companionship, desire to spend what time you're willing to give each other. You know, something between a spouse & a casual date. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

why can't looking for a fun night out turn into a really fun night out such that you want to do it again?

i still say you are limiting yourself, and thereby keeping yourself limited to opportunities. . .

good luck

wiftty

I know we've beat this to death, but it still amuses me...

Sure, spouse hunting, in the sense of "trying to marry the first person you meet after a divorce" is a dubious undertaking.

But, I have to laugh when I see this term used by wiftty to describe people like myself, Lexxxy, or nams, who have been divorced for years, have casually dated dozens of people, and, IMHO, have become quite aware of their needs and wants in a partner. It is silly to say that our desire to avoid dating people whom we do not deem to be "spouse-worthy" to be a case of "spouse hunting". Baloney. All we are doing, having done the casual dating, is weeding out the people we do not want to date from those we do want to date. I don't see anything wrong with that, if that is what people want to do.

Wiftty preaches of the benefits of casual dating and not "spouse hunting", yet he and his GF hooked up right after their divorces and have been together ever since. What happened to "casual dating"? Why jump right into a longterm relationship? You are doing nothing different than what we "spouse hunters" are being accused of - being in a relationship that works, as long as it works; except you didn't do the casual dating that we have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Anyway, nams, I wouldn't worry about this "spouse hunting" label. You have done the casual dating, you know what you want, no sense investing your time in those you deem to be not relationship material - you know what you want and need, trust your judgement.

AGG

Now this is interesting....

We're talking about eliminating someone from our dating pool based on a defined criteria.

Isn't that the same thing we were talking about when we spoke about "chemistry"?

nams, if you were willingt o give a guy a few casual dates to see if you and he had chemistry, why wouldn't you give him a few casual dates to see if it could become a relationship?

I'll try to be clear but I think there's no satisfying wiffty regarding "spouse hunting". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, AGG we have beat this issue to death. From what I can tell if one is seeking a relationship one is spouse hunting according to wiffty.

Wiffty is claiming my desire to date men who say they desire a relationship VS casual dating means I am discounting people who may turn out to actually want a relationship but just didn't say that or perhaps didn't realize it. OK, with that I agree. I would be taking men at their word that they didn't want a relationship & not dating them hoping they may change their mind. Wasted time & disrepectful IMHO.

Low, I'm not saying I won't date casually because I do think that's the way I will eventually meet a man who has an interest in a relationship. I'm not expecting a relationship out of a date or three. My feeling is this: If a man has stated clearly he ONLY wants to date casually & has no intention of getting into a relationship I would be better off looking else where. It would be a waste of my time & disrespectful to him to try to force a relationship when he was very clear about not wanting one.

If a man is interesting & we want to go out together I will. This would be a casual date. If this man says he never plans to be in another relatioship or will ONLY date casually, which to me means a fun date now & then, I don't think he'd be the one to plan on a relationship with. Could he turn into the love of my life? Maybe. Would it start with a casual date? Yes. But, at some point casual would turn into a relationship.